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Broken Ukraine
Death Shrine, Maiden Square, Kiev.

Death Shrine, Maiden Square, Kiev.

I hadn’t even changed money when a guy in a military jacket approached me for a donation for Ukraine’s war efforts, and he was quite persistent too. This happened in Maidan Square, now turned into a death shrine, with photos of sacrificed soldiers scattered all over. Of different sizes, many were draped with rosary beads and/or accompanied by a flag, flowers, votive candles and/or pine twig. Many of the dead had faded or bled smearily. Some posed with pets, guns or cars. In his tent, a red bearded, smiling dude gave a thumb up. A chubby, bespectacled man hugged a tree, while a suited fellow appeared to be singing karaoke. Baby faced or wizened, all these men and a few women have died in a hopeless war with no objective save the American imperative to harass Russia.

As for their government, it is US-installed and seeded throughout with foreigners. Remember the tie-biting President of Georgia? He contributed 2,000 troops to the US invasion of Iraq then, egged on by Bush, decided to trade blows with Russia over South Ossetia, with predictably calamitous results. Mikheil Saakashvili is now head of Ukraine’s International Advisory Council on Reforms, as well as the Governor of Odessa Oblast, having been granted Ukrainian citizenship just the day before. Only a wrecked nation would recruit the wrecker of another to join its wrecking crew. Mikheil was plucked right out of Brooklyn, where he was moping to escape prosecution back home. The just-resigned Minister of Economy and Trade, Aivaras Abromavicius, was born in Lithuania and does not speak Ukrainian. Minister of Finance Natalie Jaresko retains her American citizenship, wisely, it must be said, so she can quickly jump off this sinking ship.

Taking the bus from Leipzig to Kiev, I crossed all of Poland and half of Ukraine. This took nearly 24 hours of sitting stiffly, with over 2 spent at the Polish/Ukrainian border. All of the 61 passengers but me and two others were Ukrainian. One was a World Bank financial advisor in her 60’s. Half Russian by blood and born in Tennessee, Carol, not her real name, has spent most of her adult life in Europe, working in Frankfurt, Moscow and now Kiev, with brief assignments to Manila and Banjul. Her father was a chemist on the Manhattan Project.

Out the windows, villages passed by, their houses humble and somewhat dilapidated, though a few were quite grand. Colorful churches cheered up the grim winter landscape, as did decorated wooden crucifixes. Here and there, a Madonna shrine. Stores and hotels also stood out. A cheeky motel mimicked a castle with turrets. Peddling seven heads of cabbage, a forlorn man displayed them on the hood of his rusty Lada. I spotted vehicles I didn’t know were still extant. Inside cement bus stops, well-bundled folks waited stoically. One shelter had a painted helicopter. Black coated women under flowery babushkas waddled down frozen paths. I even saw three horse-drawn carts. “You’ll see more off the main road,” Carol informed. “You know Adidas has saved many lives here. Their clothes and shoes often have these reflectors. Before, you had all these people getting run over because they were walking on these dirt roads at night, drunk.”

“This highway is in pretty good shape, though.”

“Turkish contractors had to be brought in,” she laughed. “The locals couldn’t finish it. They were so corrupt!”

As for Ukraine’s political and societal dire straits, Carol pinned it all on Putin. He wants to invade the Baltic nations and the rest of Ukraine. He is causing unrest all over Europe by supporting extremists on both the left and right. Putin is destabilizing Bosnia and buying off Hungary’s Viktor Orban.

Apartment Blocks in Ukraine

Apartment Blocks in Ukraine

Before reaching Kiev, we paused in Lviv, Rivne and Zhytomir. I had seen enough concrete, Communist-era apartment blocks in Germany, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Poland and Hungary, but the Ukrainian ones seemed even more dismal. They contrasted quite grotesquely with the faux utopia of advertising billboards, where all faces were ecstatic, all bodies trim and fashionable and all products, even the most banal, lickably sexy. In Lviv, there’s a spiffy shopping mall called King Cross Leopolis. Over the next week, I would spot many more references to landmarks from that mythically prosperous Europe that most Ukrainians will never experience.

Shop Window near the center of Kiev.

Shop Window near the center of Kiev.

The outskirts of the capital were basically more of the same dispiriting Communist urban planning, but here and there rose new high rises that were not unattractive. I was surprised, though, by how beautiful and sophisticated the center of Kiev was. With much of the country’s wealth parked here, brand name shops were everywhere, but all were bedecked quite stridently with large SALE signs of up to 90% off. Whatever that was wrong with Ukraine before the Euromaidan demonstrations, it was clearly making progress, for otherwise there wouldn’t be all these shops for all budgets. Now, thousands of salesclerks and store owners stand around all day to look pleadingly at every passerby. As I strayed into the meat and fish section of the vast Besarabsky Market, each stall owner shouted a torrent at me to buy a just-killed piece of something, so that I had to wade through a sea of incomprehensible words just to get out.

Such a gem of a city would normally be swarmed with tourists, but I saw almost none. Taking the subway several times each day for a week, I was clearly the only alien, with the lone exception a black man who didn’t look all that comfortable. I heard no foreign languages on these extended rides far underground, and the Kiev subway is bizarrely deep. I wondered why most people did not hurry up or down the endless escalators, but those long, angled tubes were indeed soothing. A man sat down on a grooved, steel step.

Near Lisova Station, Kiev.

Near Lisova Station, Kiev.

Near Lisova Station, at the end of the red line, I found over a hundred businesses selling used clothes and shoes. Folks rummaged through enormous mounds, looking for suitable bargains. At one stall, one could even choose second hand skis and skates. Appropriate to their wares, these complexes were mostly shabby, with corrugated tin or plastic walls. Often, I walked on planks or dirt under tarps through poorly lit passages. Among the merchants, there were Black Africans, Arabic speakers and Vietnamese.

Vietnam’s only (publicly known) billionaire, 47-year-old Phan Nhat Vuong, had his start as an instant noodle magnate in Ukraine. Carol, “I ate Mivina noodles too. Everyone did. After the Fall of Communism, people had very little money.” There’s a Kiev high school named Ho Chi Minh. There are also North Koreans in Ukraine. They do some of the hardest agricultural works, such as picking onions.

Taxi Bar diner, Center of Kiev.

Taxi Bar diner, Center of Kiev.

Kiev restaurants that serve foreign foods, whether Japanese, Thai or Turk, etc., are almost always owned and run by Ukrainians. Sushi is hugely popular, with even chains like Burger Club and Mafia offering it. There are 22 Sushiyas, 17 Eurasias and 15 Murakamis. There’s a Chinese joint, Bruce Lee, one of only a handful. There are 32 McDonald’s, with one seemingly outside each subway station. At Minska, there are two. Taxi Bar, a 50’s styled American diner, is like a Day-Glo tableau from Grease.

Neighborhood Bar, Holosiivskyi, Kiev.

Neighborhood Bar, Holosiivskyi, Kiev.

Though its war and sinking economy have chased or kept foreigners away, Ukraine’s culture is intensely outward looking, with international references everywhere. Cigarette stands have images of New York or London. Inside a Kiev shopping center, there’s a gigantic English styled phone booth, with a Sherlock Holmes scaling it. At the same mall, there are fake cactuses and two effigies of Mexicans, one dozing, one climbing onto a ledge, as if breaking in. Kiev night clubs have names like Pink Freud, Rout 66, Carribean and even Franklin, with a huge picture of Ben towering over pedestrians. An American flag hangs in a neighborhood bar in Holosiivskyi. Ukraine, it is clear, wants very much to belong to the wider world, even as it’s receding in everyone’s rear view mirror. At least a million Ukrainians have already fled the country, and this number will only multiply as its human crisis deepens. In the warzone, many are starving or have committed suicide. Europe has another refugee crisis coming.

Begging Woman, Kiev Subway Station

Begging Woman, Kiev Subway Station

As of October 2015, the average net wage in Ukraine is only $136 a month, among the lowest in Europe. On Kiev sidewalks, people sell whatever they can, with, say, three plucked chickens on a piece of cardboard. In trendy Podil, a woman picked up her bare, stiff fowl at dusk and marched away in frustration, while behind plate glass windows, hipsters sipped drinks in fancy cafés. I saw a boy of about 14 stand stoically behind some beets, onions and garlics. On subway trains, wandering, clearly desperate people tried to push calendars, toys, candies or icons, etc. Riders looked away as they delivered their sad pitches. With nothing to offer, many begged with a sign and/or a sustained yet exhausted plea. Inside stations, some stood in silence with heads bowed. Plopped next to her crutches, a woman stuck her destroyed foot out. Instead of toes, there was but a bloody stub. A one-eyed woman had a cardboard sign around her neck. Outside in all weathers, many beggars prostrated most abjectly. On magnificent and still glittering Shreshchatyk, a crone was bunched up like a giant toad, face hidden, with a hand on the cold pavement and a cane next to her. Near Vokzalna Station, a black-clad, young and blonde beauty knelt under an umbrella while holding a sign with a photo of her son. Sleet was slanting down.

One shouldn’t be surprised by the obscene contrast in Kiev between comfortable, even affluent normalcy with stark destitution as largely caused by the war. As long as people are not dodging bullets or bombs, they will carry on like the rest of us, and if they can afford it, they will eat sushi and savor martinis. There were large ads in Kiev for a concert by the Japanese jazz pianist, Keiko Matsui, and Scorpions, a German heavy metal band, was also coming. The megastar Red Hot Chili Peppers will be in town in July.

ORDER IT NOW

Even in places of enjoyment, though, there are nods towards the war. In Kupidon, a hugely popular bar on Pushkinskaya, there’s a pork dish called “Crimea is Ours,” and a 75 cent pint of Lvivske 1715 is listed as “we drink so that Moscals won’t get it.” On the door of Baraban, a joint popular with journalists, there’s a notice below the MASTERCARD and VISA sign, “Dear Friends, you should know that by spending money in Bar Baraban you support Ukrainian Army and National Guardia, which fights international terrorism in the eastern Ukraine. We spend 25% of our turnover to provide necessities for our military.”

Inside, I met quite by chance Dmytro Potekhin. Son of a diplomat, former advisor to the Japanese embassy in Kiev and occasional journalist, Potekhin is best known as a US-funded and trained activist from even before the Orange Revolution. On August 7th, 2015, he was captured by Russian separatists in Donetsk and jailed for 48 days. Potekhin, “You know, I’ve visited Dachau, and the concentration camp in Donetsk is worse than Dachau.” He said that to me. Publicly, he has accused his captors of feeding him cold soup twice a day and hitting him hard once in the head. He claimed others were beaten bloody. As for Russians being terrorists, Potekhin declared on Ukrainian TV shortly after his release, “Russia annexed the Crimea and Russia is helping the terrorists in Donetsk, and Russia itself is a terrorist organization basically. We still for some reasons call it ‘country,’ for some reasons this organization has its diplomats in the UN Security Council, and here in Kyiv, but actually they are not diplomats, they are representing Russia, but they are representing not a country, they are now representing terrorist organization called Russia.”

Putin Toilet Paper on Sale in Kiev Gift Shop

Putin Toilet Paper on Sale in Kiev Gift Shop

In Kiev gift shops, they’re selling Putin toilet paper. According to Potekhin, it’s not Ukraine that’s disintegrating, but Russia. He explained that with the embargo and cratering oil prices, Russia has been forced to dip into its cash reserves, so it can last another six months maybe, maybe a year. As for the war, “We can easily take those provinces back militarily, but the bigger challenge is to prove to those people that we have a better model and future. When they see that Putin can’t take care of them, but we’re improving, they will want to come back.”

Che Guevara Image in Kiev Bar

Che Guevara Image in Kiev Bar

On the bar, there were two remote control tanks, one called “POWER KING,” in front of the Ukrainian and European Union flags. On the walls were two images of Che Guevara and one of Bob Marley. It was ridiculous to see Che idolized since Ukrainian nationalism is supposed to be anti-Communist, but such is the power of Western pop culture. Agreeing with me, Potekhin added that the bar owner had studied in the US. The music on the sound system, Cab Calloway, Roy Orbison, Gogol Bordello, Van Morrison, Otis Redding, B.B. King and Carl Perkins, etc., showed his musical taste. Beneath a photo of a pensive Miles Davis were these scrawls, “NEVER be bought never be SOLD” and “PAIN IS TEMPORARY BUT PRIDE IS FOREVER.”

Hearing American music everywhere, much of it black, I can’t help but conclude how greatly Uncle Sam has benefited from driving his black population into the deepest despair or half mad, for whether they moan most pathetically (blues), blather ecstatically or even incoherently (jazz), or lash out obscenely (rap,) the United States does not lose but gain billions of admirers. Blacks, then, are a huge component of Uncle Sam’s soft power.

Nearly each night, there’s a pianist at Bar Barbaran, and I was lucky enough to catch the inspired performances of Elena, then Anton Ryzhenko, who also had a snare drummer. Playing driven, obsessive jazz, the stern Elena kept her black, faux fur-trimmed hooded coat on and unleashed gorgeous runs although practically no one was paying any attention to her. Done, she took her small payment from the barmaid and left sorrow-faced.

A television host got off the couch to say hello to Potekhin, then turned to me, “We haven’t gotten anywhere. We’re still at the same place.”

“So what’s the solution?”

“Stay calm and carry on.”

“Maybe you shouldn’t stay calm?”

“We tried that the last time!”

Nothing makes me happier than being in a novel place, and though a distressed Kiev was still magical, I could feel no elation, for everywhere there were signs of grim endurance or outright despair, so that I was constantly reminded of how our small lives can be so casually destroyed by unseen hands. Men are most belligerent when they risk nothing. Born in a devastated country, I could see in Kiev more than enough of myself, so I cursed, if only under my breath, those who have reduced such a beautiful and dignified people to such a condition. Rushing up to me, a woman blurted, “Help me!” At dusk, at least two dozen ordinary, well-dressed citizens lined up in Maidan Square for a mobile soup kitchen. Surely many Ukrainians must know they’re being used. During the Soviet years, they suffered the Holodomor (in which up to 7.5 million starved to death) and Chernobyl on top of daily Communism. Now, they’re bankrupt and dying. To be unmolested for any stretch of time is a rare respite for any small nation.

For six nights in Kiev, I paid less for a room than one night in NYC, and my hotel was right on Maidan Square. An excellent and varied hot breakfast was part of the deal. One morning, I heard American English spoken behind me, the first time in several days. Before I could turn around and ask, “Where are you folks from?” I heard the woman’s hesitant voice. It was clear she wasn’t a native speaker. They weren’t Mr. and Mrs. Balanchuk visiting from Chicago. As they left the breakfast room, I could see a middle-aged man in a sweatshirt with “TOKYO” on it, and she was a young blonde who belonged in a glossy magazine. He’s probably convinced he’s saving her, the way Victoria Nuland has saved Ukraine.

For nearly three years, I was a regular commentator for Iran’s Press TV. On March 8th, 2014, I was supposed to debate Taras Kuzio, once the Head of Mission of the NATO Information and Documentation Center in Kiev. Our TV tussle never got off the ground, however, as Kuzio became enraged at hostess Marzieh Hashemi’s very first question. After a gruff response, Kuzio terminated the live feed and simply disappeared. I have never seen anything like it. One would think a US-trained and funded mouthpiece would be more eager to broadcast.

On April 19th, 2014, I gave Press TV another Ukraine commentary. Rereading the transcripts, both available online, I stand behind every word, so here’s the second, more succinct statement:

ORDER IT NOW

America brings ruination to each country it interferes with. Just look at Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya and now Ukraine. Just look at the continuing war in Syria. While posing as a force of good and democracy, the US brings nothing but destruction and death. My fear is that America will become even more violent as it collapses.

The US has instigated this entire crisis, but it is blaming everything on Russia each step of the way.

After it staged a violent and illegal coup against the Kiev government, it accused Russia of fomenting unrest in the Eastern and Southern parts of the country, but it is only natural that ethnic Russians in these regions would want to be reabsorbed back into Russia. They don’t want to be second class citizens in a country that’s wrecked by American economic manipulation, and they don’t want to be a pawn in a dangerous game of provocation against Russia, maybe even war against Russia, whom they identify with. Ukraine is being used by the US to disrupt the economic integration of Russia and Europe. The US is trying to prevent both Russia and China from becoming vital economic partners of Europe, because this would leave no room for the United States.

You have to be insane or an American policy maker to think Russia would let go of its seaport in the Black Sea (Sevastopol) or Mediterranean (Tartus), and that’s why Putin had to put the kibosh on Uncle Sam’s hubris in both Ukraine and Syria.

Before leaving Kiev, let’s have one final cup of coffee. I had just gotten off the metro at Teremky, the end of the blue line. Negotiating the ice, snow and slush covered sidewalk, I noticed a strange bus painted with cupcakes, cakes and a large cup of coffee. On its roof were pine branches and fake presents.

Image of Times Square in interior of refreshment bus, Kiev.

Image of Times Square, interior refreshment bus, Kiev.

Inside were lace curtains, seats lovingly upholstered in geometric patterns and an image of Times Square. The ceiling was fringed with plastic snowflakes and pasted with smiley faces and reflective hearts. A calendar said, “The TREE of Life.” Stevie Wonder was wailing, “I just called to say I love you.” The owner of this trippy establishment was a burly man of about fifty.

For more than an hour, I was his only customer, and I would be very surprised if he got more than a handful the rest of the day. Though he knew I couldn’t understand him, the man would say this and that and look in my direction. Though obviously friendly, not once could he muster up a grin or smile, the way strangers often do, especially when they don’t share a language. From seeing so many other empty businesses in Kiev, including a vast bowling alley nearby, I think I have a pretty good idea where he’s coming from.

The most laughter I heard in Ukraine was on the bus leaving it. The Milky Way expanded as soon as we entered Poland.

 

Linh Dinh is the author of two books of stories, five of poems, and a novel, Love Like Hate. He’s tracking our deteriorating socialscape through his frequently updated photo blog, Postcards from the End of America.

 
• Category: Economics, Foreign Policy • Tags: Poverty, Ukraine 
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169 Comments to "Broken Ukraine"
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  1. anon says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    I sure wish we could have more immigrants from the Ukraine instead of the third world.

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    • Agree: gruff
    • Replies: @Blinky Bill
    Tragically the West has made Ukraine into a third world country. I pray that one day they will find their own Vladimir Putin and become the nation they deserve to be.
    , @Anonymous
    Lol. Didn't you read the article? Ukraine is the third world.
    , @Thirdeye
    Or you could just move to Ukraine and be in an all-white utopia. Problem solved.
    , @Greg Bacon
    100,000 Refugees to Arrive in 180 American Cities, pleas see the list below

    conservativebyte.com/2015/11/100000-refugees-to-arrive-in-180-american-cities/#
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  2. @anon
    I sure wish we could have more immigrants from the Ukraine instead of the third world.

    Tragically the West has made Ukraine into a third world country. I pray that one day they will find their own Vladimir Putin and become the nation they deserve to be.

    Read More
    • Agree: Seamus Padraig
    • Replies: @Poles never learn

    I pray that one day they will find their own Vladimir Putin
     
    You better pray one day they find Vladimir Putin owns them.
  3. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @anon
    I sure wish we could have more immigrants from the Ukraine instead of the third world.

    Lol. Didn’t you read the article? Ukraine is the third world.

    Read More
  4. Ukraine reminds me of how Ireland used to be between.

    They’re fighting over a region that doesn’t actually want to be part of their country. For Ukraine, it’s Crimea and eastern Ukraine. For Ireland, it was Northern Ireland.

    They’re in demographic stagnation. Ukraine’s population today is the same as it was in 1965. Ireland’s population peaked in the 1830s and never recovered.

    They’re suffering emigration. Ukrainian women are selling themselves to American men. Irish men and women emigrated to America by the millions.

    The Irish eventually broke the cycle of poverty. They stopped hating the British. They focused on building their own country instead of fighting someone else. They even rewrote their Constitution to give up their claim to Northern Ireland.

    Ukraine needs to do the same. That shopkeeper needs to stop sending 25% of turnover to the government fighters to blow up what’s left of eastern Ukraine. Instead, invest it into something productive, something that will actually help build up Ukraine.

    Read More
    • Replies: @attonn
    Don't worry, "that shopkeeper" is not sending 25% of revenue to nobody. That is surely a marketing gimmick and a lie.
  5. If they (Ukrainian refugees in case of humanitarian crisis) would come to Poland, I bet they would be more welcome than Arabs. They are Slavic like us, have similar language and soul. OTOH we have a small but vocal minority which hates Ukrainians (because of Vohlyn massacres and, most importantly, because most nationalist partof Ukrainians still thinks that Vohlyn massacres either has not happened or were just symmetrical partisan warfare).

    Read More
    • Replies: @Seamus Padraig
    I've heard there are already a quarter million Ukrainians living in Poland, probably from western Ukraine.
  6. @anon
    I sure wish we could have more immigrants from the Ukraine instead of the third world.

    Or you could just move to Ukraine and be in an all-white utopia. Problem solved.

    Read More
    • Replies: @anon
    Canada was about 99% white in the year I was born. That was pretty much enough of a white utopia for me sport. But then the third world moved in.
    , @Discard
    All-White is a necessary, but not sufficient, condition for utopia. My experience of Russians is that they have a low-trust society, and I'd guess that Ukrainians are similar in that regard. In my utopia, it is assumed that not everybody is trying to cheat you.
  7. @anon
    I sure wish we could have more immigrants from the Ukraine instead of the third world.

    100,000 Refugees to Arrive in 180 American Cities, pleas see the list below

    conservativebyte.com/2015/11/100000-refugees-to-arrive-in-180-american-cities/#

    Read More
  8. Ukraine has committed collective suicide with its hateful stupidity.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AP
    Because joining the 25% Muslim Eurasian Union, with the loathsome Yanukovich as the local satrap, would have been preferable? Anything to spite the neocons though, right?

    One can almost write a similar post about Manhattan, gratuitously mentioning the homeless (on a recent trip I noticed that all of the stalls in the 3rd floor bathroom of the fancy upper west side Columbus circle mall were occupied by sleeping homeless) and rats in central park to show how the city in spite of hipsters drinking expensive drinks is falling apart.
  9. As for Ukraine’s political and societal dire straits, Carol pinned it all on Putin. He wants to invade the Baltic nations and the rest of Ukraine. He is causing unrest all over Europe by supporting extremists on both the left and right. Putin is destabilizing Bosnia and buying off Hungary’s Viktor Orban.

    What do you expect her to say? She’s a World Bankster, after all!

    Seriously though: excellent article, Linh. I can’t wait to see the comments from ‘AP’ and ‘Soarintothesky’.

    BTW, here’s the latest inanity from Ukie-stan: the Rada Verkhovna is now debating a bill to–get this!–officially change Russia’s name to ‘Muscovy’. I’m not joking: http://sputniknews.com/europe/20160219/1035026082/ukraine-muscovy-russia-rename.html

    Ukraine is doomed.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AP
    Well, meanwhile, 2015 has been a record year since 2010 for new housing construction in Ukraine:

    http://pollotenchegg.livejournal.com/227284.html

    Although note that all of the new construction is occurring in Kiev and the west - the country's east is stagnant.

    Gross Regional Product follows similar patterns - economic stability to growth in much of the country's west and Kiev, decline in the east. I suspect the poor people selling stuff in the streets of Kiev while locals enjoy their sushi are mostly easterners.

    Ukraine is doomed.
     
    Such pleasant wishes from the pro-Russian, anti-Western crowd.
  10. Linh Dinh must be proud of himself being a good storyteller while masking the realities on ground from his readers.

    On May 6, 2014, the deputy head of Dnipropetrovsk, B. Filatov and Ukrainian oligarch Kolomoyski announced a plan to build a New Zion: Promised Land in the Zionist liberated Ukraine. Kolomoyski’s fellow Jewish oligarch Petro Poroshenko is the current president of Ukraine.

    The radical Zionist Chabad Jewish sect in the United States wants its community to move to Ukraine, their original Khazarian homeland.

    Jews, who make only 0.2% of Ukraine’s total population, have total monopoly over country’s government, media and finance. In 2005, professor Vasyl Yaremenko in an article, entitled ‘Jews in Ukraine today: reality without myths’, wrote: “Ukrainians need to know that the mass media is completely in the hands of Jews, and everything that we watch or read is the product of Jewish ideology…”

    https://rehmat1.com/2014/08/16/ukraine-new-jewish-promised-land/

    Read More
    • Replies: @Varenik
    I should know better than reply to your comment... but
    you do realize most of your assertions are drivel based on very questionable, biased "evidence" ?
  11. anon says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @Thirdeye
    Or you could just move to Ukraine and be in an all-white utopia. Problem solved.

    Canada was about 99% white in the year I was born. That was pretty much enough of a white utopia for me sport. But then the third world moved in.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Ah but at one point Canada was 100% Native American. Or Redskinned if you want to call them. Then the white man started to arrive.

    These white men did not think about what was best for the natives, they just arrived and took all the land.

    So you see, it is just history coming around full circle.
  12. @Thirdeye
    Ukraine has committed collective suicide with its hateful stupidity.

    Because joining the 25% Muslim Eurasian Union, with the loathsome Yanukovich as the local satrap, would have been preferable? Anything to spite the neocons though, right?

    One can almost write a similar post about Manhattan, gratuitously mentioning the homeless (on a recent trip I noticed that all of the stalls in the 3rd floor bathroom of the fancy upper west side Columbus circle mall were occupied by sleeping homeless) and rats in central park to show how the city in spite of hipsters drinking expensive drinks is falling apart.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Thirdeye

    Because joining the 25% Muslim Eurasian Union, with the loathsome Yanukovich as the local satrap, would have been preferable?
     
    If you look at the current situation in Ukraine objectively, with its loathsome government robbing its people while licking the asses of neocons abroad and neo-Nazis at home, it's hard to argue that it would be worse.
  13. After it staged a violent and illegal coup against the Kiev government

    If you state this often enough, it doesn’t become true.

    Would you describe what happened in Eastern Europe in the 1989 as a staged violent and illegal coup? Would the misery of the 90s be evidence of the evil effects of western “meddling”? Not that the situation in current Ukraine is nearly as bad as it had been in the 90s.

    Reality is that it was a mass uprising of a little less than half the country, against a regime that was supported by about 1/5 of the country. It was a revolt of the natives against the immigrants and their children. Overthrown president Yanukovich was a Russian-Belarussian; Azarov was an immigrant who came to Ukraine from Russia when he was in his thirties. Imagine a revolt of Americans against a Mexican-American president from LA and a Mexican-immigrant House Speaker that prevents them from bringing the USA into some Latin American Union.

    But since it was in part an anti-Russian uprising (and thus supported by Western neocons) you don’t like it.

    Read More
    • Replies: @annamaria
    "It was a revolt of the natives against the immigrants and their children."

    A very interesting conclusion... What is so purely Ukrainian about the current governor of Odessa, Mr. Saakishvilly who is wanted in his native Georgia on serious chargers? And what is the name of the just-resigned Ukrainian Minister of Economy? - Aivaras Abromavičius. Does a Lithuanian-born Aivaras Abromavičius know Ukrainian language? (By the way, how many peoples' representatives in the Ukrainian Parliament prefer Ukrainian language over Russian language?)
    Here is also a fraudster Natalie Jaresko, delegated by the State Dept. to serve as Ukraine's Finance Minister; are you content with the fact that Jaresko holds a dual citizenship? In your opinion, how thoroughbred are both Poroshenko and Yatz? - there are some persistent gossips that these gentlemen are of a mixed Russian-Jewish (or Ukrainian-Jewish, if you wish) descent. Doesn't it bother you that Kolomojsky (a devout Jewish man with triple-citizenship) joined his efforts with the neo-nazis in a fight against Ukrainian citizens in east Ukraine? How comfortable are you with the various Islamists joining Kiev regime' against the pro-federalization citizens of Ukraine?
    I apologize for so many questions, but you have touched on important topic.
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/dec/15/ukrainian-minister-throws-water-in-odessa-governors-face http://sputniknews.com/europe/20150801/1025297341.html https://consortiumnews.com/2015/11/10/how-ukraines-finance-chief-got-rich/ http://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-economy-minister-resigns-citing-stalled-reforms-100959978.html
    http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/watching-the-ukrainian-oligarchs http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=a57_1399933948 http://www.opednews.com/articles/Ukraine-The-Unspeakable-H-by-George-Eliason-Death_Girls_Kidnapped_Ukraine-Coup-141002-440.html https://consortiumnews.com/2016/01/29/ukraine-merges-nazis-and-islamists-2/

    , @Mitleser
    If it was against migrants, why do you have a migrants as finance minister and governor of your largest province?
    Why is your minister for Interior an Armenian?
  14. The US didn’t have to do a thing in Ukraine. The political apparatus, like that of all former Soviet provinces, did a good job of tearing the country down.

    Maidan was not a US effort, but a spontaneous uprising of the people themselves. The US is a handy booger man to point to, but the US doesn’t have the energy or competence to do half of what it’s blamed for.

    The Entire country voted overwhelmingly for independence, and that included Crimea and the Donbas. Russia had already resigned itself to losing Sevastopol and was building a Naval base at Novorossiysk. It was only after the people of Ukraine overthrew Putin’s boy that Putin decided to take Crimea and foment war in the Donbas. Now the criminal regime in Russia has itself in a sticky financial situation and will probably not be able to hold what it has stolen.

    People like Dinh often go into things like this having bought into the propaganda that has been spewed, instead of actually looking into what has happened. Ukraine was advancing until the criminal regime in Moscow decided it didn’t like losing its puppet. Many in Ukraine are working to shed the corrupt government agents it has inherited, but having a war shoved down your throat tends to hold up anything that takes money.

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    • Replies: @AP

    but the US doesn’t have the energy or competence to do half of what it’s blamed for.
     
    It's funny that the same people who deride the Americans for claiming to have won World War II, ascribe to them magical abilities to overthrow governments.
    , @Thirdeye

    The US didn’t have to do a thing in Ukraine.
     
    Not according to Victoria Nudelman. The US State Department spent $5 billion on regime change in Ukraine.

    The US is a handy booger man to point to, but the US doesn’t have the energy or competence to do half of what it’s blamed for.
     
    Yes, snotty and incompetent. The results of the Ukraine regime change project, just like the results of the Iraq, Libya, Egypt, and Syria regime change projects, highlight that snotty incompetence.

    The Entire country voted overwhelmingly for independence, and that included Crimea and the Donbas.
     
    Yes they did. It was the quickest way out of the Soviet system. And you know something else? The only reason the Donbas and Crimea remained part of the Ukrainian state was that Gorbachev wheeled and dealed to prevent referenda on independent statehood for those areas, which according to contemporary polling would most likely have passed. Russia saw a singular Ukrainian state as the path to political stability. That remained their approach after the Donbas rebelled, exerting their influence to marginalize separatist tendencies and promote federalist tendencies. The Minsk process is the Ukrainian government's last chance to keep national unity, but they are too venal and stupid to realize it.

    Now the criminal regime in Russia has itself in a sticky financial situation and will probably not be able to hold what it has stolen.
     
    Switch "Ukraine" for "Russia" and you have an accurate statement. Kiev kleptocrats have been robbing the rest of Ukraine for years, under both pro-Russian and pro-Western governments. Now they've become the biggest factor threatening the viability of the Ukrainian state. The central Ukrainian government provides no benefit to its people anywhere in Ukraine.
    , @Andrew

    The political apparatus, like that of all former Soviet provinces, did a good job of tearing the country down.
     
    Most former Soviet provinces seem to be doing pretty well, including Russia, Belarus, the Baltics, Kazakhstan, etc. The basket cases are where the US has intervened or local regimes provoked a civil war - Ukraine, Moldova, Georgia, Azerbaijan.

    Maidan was not a US effort, but a spontaneous uprising of the people themselves.
     
    Maybe of a spontaneous uprising of the people of Galicia and Volhynia. There was no mass uprising in the central, south and east of the country related to Maidan.

    If you would like to see what a real peaceful mass uprising looks like, go look at the film and pictures of the Donbass referendum as it occurred on May 11, 2014.

    The US is a handy booger man to point to, but the US doesn’t have the energy or competence to do half of what it’s blamed for.
     
    So how was Oleg Tsaraev able to give a speech a day before Maidan predicting the US would foment a civil war in Ukraine?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gbVOr6n8Ww

    The Entire country voted overwhelmingly for independence, and that included Crimea and the Donbas.
     
    The entire country except Galicia voted overwhelmingly to remain part of a unified Soviet Union first.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_sovereignty_referendum,_1991

    Crimea and the Donbass voted subsequently in 1994 to gain local sovereignty, close ties to Russia, and secure use of the Russian language.

    http://thekievtimes.ua/society/372400-donbass-zabytyj-referendum-1994.html
    https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Референдум_в_Донецкой_и_Луганской_областях_1994_года

    It was only after the people of Ukraine overthrew Putin’s boy that Putin decided to take Crimea and foment war in the Donbas.
     
    "Putin's boy" was elected by the people of Ukraine in a free election. The overthrow of the elected government (what a democratic and "free" action!) was accomplished only by the people of far west Ukraine.

    Its fair to say Russia has never truly accepted the loss of Crimea and Sevastopol and took them back at the first opportunity.

    Now the criminal regime in Russia has itself in a sticky financial situation and will probably not be able to hold what it has stolen.
     
    In your wildest dreams perhaps. Who is going to dislodge them?

    Ukraine was advancing until the criminal regime in Moscow decided it didn’t like losing its puppet.
     
    Can you define this advancing? Advancing in being looted by the oligarchs?

    Many in Ukraine are working to shed the corrupt government agents it has inherited, but having a war shoved down your throat tends to hold up anything that takes money.
     
    The corrupt government was created by the native Ukrainians in 1991.

    The war was chosen by the new Maidan regime, which decided to send troops from western and central Ukraine into the east of the country to fight anyone who opposed them. It wasn't like the Donbass invaded Kiev. Kiev could have just let Donbass go its own way without bloodshed, just like the Czechs and Slovaks respected each other by separating peacefully instead of one side invading the other.
  15. @Seamus Padraig

    As for Ukraine’s political and societal dire straits, Carol pinned it all on Putin. He wants to invade the Baltic nations and the rest of Ukraine. He is causing unrest all over Europe by supporting extremists on both the left and right. Putin is destabilizing Bosnia and buying off Hungary’s Viktor Orban.
     
    What do you expect her to say? She's a World Bankster, after all!

    Seriously though: excellent article, Linh. I can't wait to see the comments from 'AP' and 'Soarintothesky'.

    BTW, here's the latest inanity from Ukie-stan: the Rada Verkhovna is now debating a bill to--get this!--officially change Russia's name to 'Muscovy'. I'm not joking: http://sputniknews.com/europe/20160219/1035026082/ukraine-muscovy-russia-rename.html

    Ukraine is doomed.

    Well, meanwhile, 2015 has been a record year since 2010 for new housing construction in Ukraine:

    http://pollotenchegg.livejournal.com/227284.html

    Although note that all of the new construction is occurring in Kiev and the west – the country’s east is stagnant.

    Gross Regional Product follows similar patterns – economic stability to growth in much of the country’s west and Kiev, decline in the east. I suspect the poor people selling stuff in the streets of Kiev while locals enjoy their sushi are mostly easterners.

    Ukraine is doomed.

    Such pleasant wishes from the pro-Russian, anti-Western crowd.

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    • Replies: @5371
    Yes, when someone in the east of the svidomite entity can't buy a car or start a family, it's a sign of his low living standard. When someone in the west of the svidomite entity can't buy a car or start a family, it's a sign of his hipster lifestyle. That's logic and reason, svidomite style.
    , @Mitleser
    Kyiv and the capital region are a parasite.
  16. @Quartermaster
    The US didn't have to do a thing in Ukraine. The political apparatus, like that of all former Soviet provinces, did a good job of tearing the country down.

    Maidan was not a US effort, but a spontaneous uprising of the people themselves. The US is a handy booger man to point to, but the US doesn't have the energy or competence to do half of what it's blamed for.

    The Entire country voted overwhelmingly for independence, and that included Crimea and the Donbas. Russia had already resigned itself to losing Sevastopol and was building a Naval base at Novorossiysk. It was only after the people of Ukraine overthrew Putin's boy that Putin decided to take Crimea and foment war in the Donbas. Now the criminal regime in Russia has itself in a sticky financial situation and will probably not be able to hold what it has stolen.

    People like Dinh often go into things like this having bought into the propaganda that has been spewed, instead of actually looking into what has happened. Ukraine was advancing until the criminal regime in Moscow decided it didn't like losing its puppet. Many in Ukraine are working to shed the corrupt government agents it has inherited, but having a war shoved down your throat tends to hold up anything that takes money.

    but the US doesn’t have the energy or competence to do half of what it’s blamed for.

    It’s funny that the same people who deride the Americans for claiming to have won World War II, ascribe to them magical abilities to overthrow governments.

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  17. @szopen
    If they (Ukrainian refugees in case of humanitarian crisis) would come to Poland, I bet they would be more welcome than Arabs. They are Slavic like us, have similar language and soul. OTOH we have a small but vocal minority which hates Ukrainians (because of Vohlyn massacres and, most importantly, because most nationalist partof Ukrainians still thinks that Vohlyn massacres either has not happened or were just symmetrical partisan warfare).

    I’ve heard there are already a quarter million Ukrainians living in Poland, probably from western Ukraine.

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    • Replies: @szopen
    Some say a million, but they are not "refugees" in a strict sense - they are temporary workers, usually.
  18. The US didn’t have to do a thing in Ukraine.

    Funny because some of your State Dept reptiles and busybodying politicians seemed remarkably busy there for “not doing a thing”.

    Maidan was not a US effort, but a spontaneous uprising of the people themselves.

    “The people” used here in the sense the old commies and socialists used to use it, to pretend the subsection (whether or not a majority, for whatever that might be worth) of the people that says what they want to hear is “the people”, and the others don’t count.

    The US is a handy booger man to point to, but the US doesn’t have the energy or competence to do half of what it’s blamed for.

    Funny, when you are the world’s only superpower with a military budget almost matching the rest of the world combined (and most of the rest of the world’s military spending by allies or neutrals anyway), and your spending (including by corrupt NGOs) on interfering in other countries’ affairs through “democracy promotion” etc is bigger than many countries’ entire spending budgets, you will find you don’t need to exert much competence or energy to ruin their lives.

    Yes there are always existing grievances in the countries where the US foments colour revolutions. The US rarely if ever manufactures conflict out of nothing. But that doesn’t mean the US’s interference can be disregarded.

    Most protest movements fade away in frustration, loss of hope and compromise, as the government side resists total surrender and offers compromises of varying degrees of significance. Change happens slowly, but broadly peacefully, not quickly enough for the hotheads and those with ulterior motives, of course. And that’s how it should be, because the alternative risks opening the gates of hell. If you hold out the hope of superpower backing and openly urge and inspire protesters and the extremists amongst them to stay the course and go for maximal results, you are to blame for the results. That’s what the US State Dept and the likes of McCain and Murphy did in Kiev.

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    • Replies: @RobinG
    " If you hold out the hope of superpower backing and openly urge and inspire protesters and the extremists amongst them to stay the course and go for maximal results, you are to blame for the results."

    That's exactly what Obama did in Syria, and McCain went there also - to meet with his heart-eating beneficiaries. Now they pretend innocence and throw all the blame on the Saudis, etc.
  19. Svidomites are fools, and apart from the tiny proportion who succeed in stealing from all the rest, they continue to pay dearly for their folly. Linh Dinh is too kindhearted to laugh at them, but that’s all they are good for.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AP

    Svidomites are fools, and apart from the tiny proportion who succeed in stealing from all the rest, they continue to pay dearly for their folly.
     
    The parts of Ukraine doing most poorly economically are the eastern, less patriotic parts that were economically most tied to Russia. They are the ones paying most dearly for problems with Russia. The pro-western, Ukrainian parts of doing okay. Here is GRP by region for 2014:

    http://www.ukrstat.gov.ua/operativ/operativ2008/vvp/vrp/vrp2008_u.htm

    Luhansk and Donetsk showed 50% and 30% decline, respectively. Kiev City had 1% economic growth; Lviv declined only 1.4%. I haven't seen the figures for 2015, I suspect they are similar.

    How funny that the pro-Russians laughing at Ukrainians are essentially just laughing at the misery of their own allies.
  20. anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    America brings ruination to each country it interferes with. Just look at Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya and now Ukraine. Just look at the continuing war in Syria. While posing as a force of good and democracy, the US brings nothing but destruction and death. My fear is that America will become even more violent as it collapses.

    Kind of strange how that works, isn’t it? American boy-scouts bearing the gifts of democracy and universal happiness and yet such results. The recipients of all this generosity are just unworthy, that must be it. Now that those who didn’t want to be a part of this dysfunctional state have left they should have a free hand to engage with the west and US as they please. So what’s the problem? Why aren’t they experiencing a great upturn seeing as they are doing everything they can to cooperate with the US? Western journalists usually report some country or other is really doing fantastic because of the appearance of high-fashion clothing stores and high-end restaurants catering to the plutocrat class even though it’s unaffordable and irrelevant to the majority of people. But the well-heeled are the photogenic ones, the ones who count in the eyes of western journalists. How about a report on the situation in Crimea and the breakaway areas on how they’re doing and what life is like there?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Johann
    Funny how the US Empire has over 800 military bases in other countries and still expanding. The Russians have less than 10 and Putin is the baddy and Obama/Biden are the saviours of the world.
  21. @AP
    Well, meanwhile, 2015 has been a record year since 2010 for new housing construction in Ukraine:

    http://pollotenchegg.livejournal.com/227284.html

    Although note that all of the new construction is occurring in Kiev and the west - the country's east is stagnant.

    Gross Regional Product follows similar patterns - economic stability to growth in much of the country's west and Kiev, decline in the east. I suspect the poor people selling stuff in the streets of Kiev while locals enjoy their sushi are mostly easterners.

    Ukraine is doomed.
     
    Such pleasant wishes from the pro-Russian, anti-Western crowd.

    Yes, when someone in the east of the svidomite entity can’t buy a car or start a family, it’s a sign of his low living standard. When someone in the west of the svidomite entity can’t buy a car or start a family, it’s a sign of his hipster lifestyle. That’s logic and reason, svidomite style.

    Read More
  22. Duplicate of the comment of June 2015:
    I remember a colleague (now untimely deceased) from Kiev, who has been regularly coming to USA to work for 3 to 5 months per year. Once she brought her daughter, fresh graduate of philology-type department in Kiev, for a visit. I was surprised, how could the daughter find the job in Kiev with rather good salary. It turned out that she was writing something general to a Ukrainian-language-edition of some glossy magazine, kind of a cross between “Cosmopolitan” and “Victoria Secret”.

    We could not get it. Possibly there was a small part of population in Ukraine, who could afford western goods. But a glossy journal in Ukrainian, paying good salary in Kiev???

    Now I understand that the publication of such (actually, rather numerous) magazines was strongly subsidized from the outside of Ukraine. Victoria Nuland explained to all who wanted to hear, that USA spent about 5 billion dollars in 10 years to get influence in Ukraine.
    By themselves, they were mostly not political publications. But the subsidizing benefactors were quite attentive about the tonality expressed in those magazines. I do not have to explain, what tonality was approved, and what was not. I do not have to explain to USA audience, what was happening to the subsidies to magazines expressing wrong opinions. Example of defenestration of Derbyshire from “The National Review” is relatively fresh in memory.
    Sure, both ladies were strongly “pro-Maidan”.

    • Replies:
    @ Seamus Padraig says:

    By themselves, they were mostly not political publications. But the subsidizing benefactors were quite attentive about the tonality expressed in those magazines.

    Absolutely. Oftentimes, cultural media–both pop and avant-guarde–are far better at subversion than newspapers or overtly political sources, because in the former, subtle messages can fly into your brain under the radar, so to speak.

    When the typical person reads a real newspaper, their psychological defenses are often engaged. We know that most news sources have some type of editorial bias one way or the other, whether we agree with it or not. In such a forum, a two-thousand word screed against ‘Putin’s Russia’ will be completely predictable, and therefore, somewhat less effective. However, the merest off-hand remark against Russia, or even just one strategically placed adjective, in a ‘fashion’ or ‘culture’ publication can have a much more powerful effect psychologically, precisely because it will strike the reader as natural, unforced. It will seem to the reader to this is the now conventional wisdom among the ‘beautiful people’ that they wish to emulate. Psychologically, this technique mimics peer-pressure more than an appeal to authority.

    Disclaimer by I.f.fU.:
    I am not a big faan of Rusiia’s government.

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  23. @Blinky Bill
    Tragically the West has made Ukraine into a third world country. I pray that one day they will find their own Vladimir Putin and become the nation they deserve to be.

    I pray that one day they will find their own Vladimir Putin

    You better pray one day they find Vladimir Putin owns them.

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    • Replies: @Thirdeye

    You better pray one day they find Vladimir Putin owns them.
     
    I don't think Putin wants to own them. Neither does the EU any more. Ukraine has become dead weight.
  24. America brings ruination to each country it interferes with. Just look at Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya and now Ukraine. Just look at the continuing war in Syria. While posing as a force of good and democracy, the US brings nothing but destruction and death.

    This has been true since the US entered WWI. It managed to prevent a peaceful end to the madness and slaughter of WWI and kept the insanity going virtually until today, as US bankers have funded and allied with the likes of Trotsky and Stalin even as they pretended to be at war with the Soviets. All the carnage and strife can be laid at the feet of international bankers in London and Paris and New York. The MIC are just barnacles leaching off this bankster ship of horrors.

    It pains me deeply to read articles like this, knowing how those poor people, Ukrainian and Russian, are being cynically led around by fiends who enjoy watching all the terrible suffering. (and are profiting off of it). I’ve often said it, but it is my mantra to repeat, that I pray that Putin can muster even more statesman like heroics and find a way to diffuse the enmity that exists between the ethnic Russians and Ukrainians (and all the other satalite states that- like the Russian people, suffered so cruelly under Soviet communism’s cruel, frozen boot of genocidal domination). These people are all victims of the behind-the-scenes men (and women like your ‘financial advisor’) who foist wars and foment strife for fun and profit. “Men” (fiends) like John McCain and gorgons like Victoria Nuland. If there is a hell, then they’d have a very special place in it.

    Ukrainians and Russian have both been tragic victims of the demonic ‘will to power’ of the eternal, international bankster class (Rothschild- et al). Just as the demonized ‘Anglos’ (often British teenagers bleeding out in trenches fighting wars on behalf of a vile, treacherous and enemy monarchy) or German boys and young men who died in the wars or women and children burned alive in the cities and are ‘seeing’ from their graves their countries systematically and deliberately destroyed by immigration. French and Scandinavians too. Palestinians, Syrians, Libyans, Russians, Ukrainians, Brits, Egyptians and Hungarians suffered unimaginably under men like Bela Kun. Estonians and Latvians to this day are ravaged by the ghosts of Soviet Orwellian mind-gulags and Russophobia and ethic strife. Many, many peoples and countries I’ve not mentioned but they suffered and are suffering too.

    We need to see behind the curtain of the carefully constructed, Orwellian matrix of ‘two minute hate’ fests that our media use to manipulate us all like so many sheep. (terrorists everywhere! Those Russian, imperial dogs! Those Ukrainian, fascist savages!) The real fiends are laughing while they’re telling us to hate each other and kill and fight wars against other impoverished people while fiends like Kolomoisky lick their blood-stained fingers and count their billions of shekels.

    Anyways, great article. Thank you for that. God bless and save all those people over there, Ukrainian and Russian, and God damn the war mongers and liars and fiends who’re foisting all these wars and looting those poor people dry.

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  25. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @anon
    Canada was about 99% white in the year I was born. That was pretty much enough of a white utopia for me sport. But then the third world moved in.

    Ah but at one point Canada was 100% Native American. Or Redskinned if you want to call them. Then the white man started to arrive.

    These white men did not think about what was best for the natives, they just arrived and took all the land.

    So you see, it is just history coming around full circle.

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    • Replies: @Romanian
    A quibble - there was no Canada. A nation is distinct from its government/form of organization and distinct from its territory. Canada was created by and for White people, and so has been peopled by them from the start, its culture and institutions based on its Anglo-French roots. Would Canada have had 30 million people today had it not been for Western technology? How many Natives were there in Canada? And how many are there now? The US imported 300 thousand slaves, who are not 40 million strong and the richest Africans on the planet.

    Go far back enough and every place had different peoples, if it had any at all. But they are assimilated, absorbed, killed or simply die off.

    Maybe Canadian should learn from its First Nations (who are not "redskins") and not lose their country to moneyed Asians and third worlders. They'd probably keep the name and a semblance of the institutions, but everything else would change.

    The same for Australia.
    , @anon
    "...they just arrived and took all the land"..

    And there was a great deal to take sport. The landmass that whites would create as Canada was almost 4,000, 000 square miles in size and was "occupied" at most by perhaps 300,000 Aboriginals. In other words 99% of the land was open and empty, quite unlike today with modern roads, railways, bridges, airports, cities, none of which ever existed previously.

    "..history coming around full circle."

    Not at all. The few Indians are not "taking back" the land (most of which they never occupied,) but new arrivals are muscling in on territory they have no claim too.

    Note how you make no effort to justify colored immigration as a "good" in itself but as some kind of "penance" or "suffering" whites are supposed to endure. I see no reason to want any of it.
  26. @Seamus Padraig
    I've heard there are already a quarter million Ukrainians living in Poland, probably from western Ukraine.

    Some say a million, but they are not “refugees” in a strict sense – they are temporary workers, usually.

    Read More
    • Replies: @RobinG
    Do Ukrainian youth go to Poland to work as migrant farm laborers, like they go to Belarus?
    , @Thirdeye
    The line between "refugee" and "migrant" is pretty fuzzy. If someone is economically dislocated and seeks work abroad, they might be considered "economic refugees."
  27. @anonymous

    America brings ruination to each country it interferes with. Just look at Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya and now Ukraine. Just look at the continuing war in Syria. While posing as a force of good and democracy, the US brings nothing but destruction and death. My fear is that America will become even more violent as it collapses.
     
    Kind of strange how that works, isn't it? American boy-scouts bearing the gifts of democracy and universal happiness and yet such results. The recipients of all this generosity are just unworthy, that must be it. Now that those who didn't want to be a part of this dysfunctional state have left they should have a free hand to engage with the west and US as they please. So what's the problem? Why aren't they experiencing a great upturn seeing as they are doing everything they can to cooperate with the US? Western journalists usually report some country or other is really doing fantastic because of the appearance of high-fashion clothing stores and high-end restaurants catering to the plutocrat class even though it's unaffordable and irrelevant to the majority of people. But the well-heeled are the photogenic ones, the ones who count in the eyes of western journalists. How about a report on the situation in Crimea and the breakaway areas on how they're doing and what life is like there?

    Funny how the US Empire has over 800 military bases in other countries and still expanding. The Russians have less than 10 and Putin is the baddy and Obama/Biden are the saviours of the world.

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  28. @5371
    Svidomites are fools, and apart from the tiny proportion who succeed in stealing from all the rest, they continue to pay dearly for their folly. Linh Dinh is too kindhearted to laugh at them, but that's all they are good for.

    Svidomites are fools, and apart from the tiny proportion who succeed in stealing from all the rest, they continue to pay dearly for their folly.

    The parts of Ukraine doing most poorly economically are the eastern, less patriotic parts that were economically most tied to Russia. They are the ones paying most dearly for problems with Russia. The pro-western, Ukrainian parts of doing okay. Here is GRP by region for 2014:

    http://www.ukrstat.gov.ua/operativ/operativ2008/vvp/vrp/vrp2008_u.htm

    Luhansk and Donetsk showed 50% and 30% decline, respectively. Kiev City had 1% economic growth; Lviv declined only 1.4%. I haven’t seen the figures for 2015, I suspect they are similar.

    How funny that the pro-Russians laughing at Ukrainians are essentially just laughing at the misery of their own allies.

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    • Replies: @Mitleser
    What about all the Ukrainian regions between Western Ukraine and Donbass?
    What about Kharkov and all the other regions ruled by capital district which greatly benefits from centralisation?
    , @Thirdeye

    The parts of Ukraine doing most poorly economically are the eastern, less patriotic parts that were economically most tied to Russia. They are the ones paying most dearly for problems with Russia. The pro-western, Ukrainian parts of doing okay. Here is GRP by region for 2014:

    http://www.ukrstat.gov.ua/operativ/operativ2008/vvp/vrp/vrp2008_u.htm

    Luhansk and Donetsk showed 50% and 30% decline, respectively. Kiev City had 1% economic growth; Lviv declined only 1.4%.
     
    Well DUH!!! Being invaded by ethnic cleansers using heavy weaponry to destroy your cities and economic infrastructure will put a serious crimp in your economy.

    I haven’t seen the figures for 2015, I suspect they are similar.
     
    Don't bet on it.
  29. @AP

    After it staged a violent and illegal coup against the Kiev government
     
    If you state this often enough, it doesn't become true.

    Would you describe what happened in Eastern Europe in the 1989 as a staged violent and illegal coup? Would the misery of the 90s be evidence of the evil effects of western "meddling"? Not that the situation in current Ukraine is nearly as bad as it had been in the 90s.

    Reality is that it was a mass uprising of a little less than half the country, against a regime that was supported by about 1/5 of the country. It was a revolt of the natives against the immigrants and their children. Overthrown president Yanukovich was a Russian-Belarussian; Azarov was an immigrant who came to Ukraine from Russia when he was in his thirties. Imagine a revolt of Americans against a Mexican-American president from LA and a Mexican-immigrant House Speaker that prevents them from bringing the USA into some Latin American Union.

    But since it was in part an anti-Russian uprising (and thus supported by Western neocons) you don't like it.

    “It was a revolt of the natives against the immigrants and their children.”

    A very interesting conclusion… What is so purely Ukrainian about the current governor of Odessa, Mr. Saakishvilly who is wanted in his native Georgia on serious chargers? And what is the name of the just-resigned Ukrainian Minister of Economy? – Aivaras Abromavičius. Does a Lithuanian-born Aivaras Abromavičius know Ukrainian language? (By the way, how many peoples’ representatives in the Ukrainian Parliament prefer Ukrainian language over Russian language?)
    Here is also a fraudster Natalie Jaresko, delegated by the State Dept. to serve as Ukraine’s Finance Minister; are you content with the fact that Jaresko holds a dual citizenship? In your opinion, how thoroughbred are both Poroshenko and Yatz? – there are some persistent gossips that these gentlemen are of a mixed Russian-Jewish (or Ukrainian-Jewish, if you wish) descent. Doesn’t it bother you that Kolomojsky (a devout Jewish man with triple-citizenship) joined his efforts with the neo-nazis in a fight against Ukrainian citizens in east Ukraine? How comfortable are you with the various Islamists joining Kiev regime’ against the pro-federalization citizens of Ukraine?
    I apologize for so many questions, but you have touched on important topic.
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/dec/15/ukrainian-minister-throws-water-in-odessa-governors-face http://sputniknews.com/europe/20150801/1025297341.html https://consortiumnews.com/2015/11/10/how-ukraines-finance-chief-got-rich/ http://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-economy-minister-resigns-citing-stalled-reforms-100959978.html
    http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/watching-the-ukrainian-oligarchs http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=a57_1399933948 http://www.opednews.com/articles/Ukraine-The-Unspeakable-H-by-George-Eliason-Death_Girls_Kidnapped_Ukraine-Coup-141002-440.html https://consortiumnews.com/2016/01/29/ukraine-merges-nazis-and-islamists-2/

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  30. @AP

    After it staged a violent and illegal coup against the Kiev government
     
    If you state this often enough, it doesn't become true.

    Would you describe what happened in Eastern Europe in the 1989 as a staged violent and illegal coup? Would the misery of the 90s be evidence of the evil effects of western "meddling"? Not that the situation in current Ukraine is nearly as bad as it had been in the 90s.

    Reality is that it was a mass uprising of a little less than half the country, against a regime that was supported by about 1/5 of the country. It was a revolt of the natives against the immigrants and their children. Overthrown president Yanukovich was a Russian-Belarussian; Azarov was an immigrant who came to Ukraine from Russia when he was in his thirties. Imagine a revolt of Americans against a Mexican-American president from LA and a Mexican-immigrant House Speaker that prevents them from bringing the USA into some Latin American Union.

    But since it was in part an anti-Russian uprising (and thus supported by Western neocons) you don't like it.

    If it was against migrants, why do you have a migrants as finance minister and governor of your largest province?
    Why is your minister for Interior an Armenian?

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    • Replies: @AP

    If it was against migrants, why do you have a migrants as finance minister and governor of your largest province?
     
    The finance minister is a Ukrainian-American who grew up speaking Ukrainian, attending Ukrainian-language Saturday schools in Chicago, serving in Ukrainian youth groups, etc.

    Governor of one province is not as extensive of foreign influence as Prime minister of the entire country.

    The ethnic Armenian minister of the interior was about 2 years old when his family moved to Ukraine.

    The overthrown government was dominated by people from a mixed-ethnicity border region. Its president was a non ethnic-Ukrainian (Russian-Belarussian) Yanukovich, its prime minister Azarov was a Russian immigrant who came to Ukraine when he was in his late thirties, its defense minister Lebedev was another Russian immigrant, who came to Ukraine when he was in his twenties.

    The regions involved in the revolt, in the center and west, are the ones with the highest % of ethnic Ukrainians. The people were taking back their own state.

    If America were faced with a similar situation - say, ruled by a group pf Mexicans from southern California and Mexican immigrants - and the midwestern and northern natives revolted, you would be cheering.


    Kyiv and the capital region are a parasite.
     
    Western agricultural regions also had economic growth in 2014. 7.6% growth in GRP in Vynnytsia oblast, for example.
    , @Avery
    Arsen Avakov is an "Armenian" in name only.
    Filthy maidano-reptile.

    When there were protests in Yerevan about electricity rates, this filth sent a letter to the organizers urging them to do a "Yerevan Maidan".
    He was naturally ignored: but the fact he sent that letter qualifies him as an anti-Armenian pond scum.

    Filthy anti-Armenian treasonous scum.
    Բոզ (whore).
    If he goes to Armenia for some reason, he will be beaten to a pulp by patriotic Armenians.
  31. @AP
    Well, meanwhile, 2015 has been a record year since 2010 for new housing construction in Ukraine:

    http://pollotenchegg.livejournal.com/227284.html

    Although note that all of the new construction is occurring in Kiev and the west - the country's east is stagnant.

    Gross Regional Product follows similar patterns - economic stability to growth in much of the country's west and Kiev, decline in the east. I suspect the poor people selling stuff in the streets of Kiev while locals enjoy their sushi are mostly easterners.

    Ukraine is doomed.
     
    Such pleasant wishes from the pro-Russian, anti-Western crowd.

    Kyiv and the capital region are a parasite.

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  32. @AP

    Svidomites are fools, and apart from the tiny proportion who succeed in stealing from all the rest, they continue to pay dearly for their folly.
     
    The parts of Ukraine doing most poorly economically are the eastern, less patriotic parts that were economically most tied to Russia. They are the ones paying most dearly for problems with Russia. The pro-western, Ukrainian parts of doing okay. Here is GRP by region for 2014:

    http://www.ukrstat.gov.ua/operativ/operativ2008/vvp/vrp/vrp2008_u.htm

    Luhansk and Donetsk showed 50% and 30% decline, respectively. Kiev City had 1% economic growth; Lviv declined only 1.4%. I haven't seen the figures for 2015, I suspect they are similar.

    How funny that the pro-Russians laughing at Ukrainians are essentially just laughing at the misery of their own allies.

    What about all the Ukrainian regions between Western Ukraine and Donbass?
    What about Kharkov and all the other regions ruled by capital district which greatly benefits from centralisation?

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  33. @Mitleser
    If it was against migrants, why do you have a migrants as finance minister and governor of your largest province?
    Why is your minister for Interior an Armenian?

    If it was against migrants, why do you have a migrants as finance minister and governor of your largest province?

    The finance minister is a Ukrainian-American who grew up speaking Ukrainian, attending Ukrainian-language Saturday schools in Chicago, serving in Ukrainian youth groups, etc.

    Governor of one province is not as extensive of foreign influence as Prime minister of the entire country.

    The ethnic Armenian minister of the interior was about 2 years old when his family moved to Ukraine.

    The overthrown government was dominated by people from a mixed-ethnicity border region. Its president was a non ethnic-Ukrainian (Russian-Belarussian) Yanukovich, its prime minister Azarov was a Russian immigrant who came to Ukraine when he was in his late thirties, its defense minister Lebedev was another Russian immigrant, who came to Ukraine when he was in his twenties.

    The regions involved in the revolt, in the center and west, are the ones with the highest % of ethnic Ukrainians. The people were taking back their own state.

    If America were faced with a similar situation – say, ruled by a group pf Mexicans from southern California and Mexican immigrants – and the midwestern and northern natives revolted, you would be cheering.

    Kyiv and the capital region are a parasite.

    Western agricultural regions also had economic growth in 2014. 7.6% growth in GRP in Vynnytsia oblast, for example.

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    • Replies: @Boris N

    The regions involved in the revolt, in the center and west, are the ones with the highest % of ethnic Ukrainians. The people were taking back their own state.
     
    In the half of Ukraine, that comprise the eastern and southern regions, ethnic Ukrainians (whatever you define them) are immigrants themselves as much as any other people from other ethnic backgrounds. It is just a historical fact. Most of the territory became open to immigration only due to the Russian victory over Crimean Tatars and the Ottoman empire (which today Ukraine likes very much). And the immigration was never been marked as "for purebred Ukrainian only", but has been open for everybody. So it would not be so surprising if the people of Lviv, Ternopil or whatever in the western part took control of their regions, but it's out of understanding why they think the other part of Ukraine belongs only to them, "true" purebred Ukrainians from Western Ukraine. It is more like an occupation.

    If America were faced with a similar situation – say, ruled by a group pf Mexicans from southern California and Mexican immigrants – and the midwestern and northern natives revolted, you would be cheering.
     
    Given your examples, it is as if in the USA the power were seized by "true American" White Power supremacists that believe that the Southwestern US belong "more" to WASPs than to Mexican Americans and Mexicans should either obey to the White Power rule or get out back to Mexico.
  34. @Mitleser
    If it was against migrants, why do you have a migrants as finance minister and governor of your largest province?
    Why is your minister for Interior an Armenian?

    Arsen Avakov is an “Armenian” in name only.
    Filthy maidano-reptile.

    When there were protests in Yerevan about electricity rates, this filth sent a letter to the organizers urging them to do a “Yerevan Maidan”.
    He was naturally ignored: but the fact he sent that letter qualifies him as an anti-Armenian pond scum.

    Filthy anti-Armenian treasonous scum.
    Բոզ (whore).
    If he goes to Armenia for some reason, he will be beaten to a pulp by patriotic Armenians.

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    • Replies: @Glossy
    I'm Jewish and I have similar feelings about the junta's Jews, who are pretty much allied with Nazis. Where would the junta be without Right Sector and the Azov battalion? Can I steal the "filthy maidano-reptile" epithet for future use?

    A lot of my motivation in speaking out against Maidanite trash is to show that we're not all like that. I'm trying to do the little that I can to impede such scum defining me.
  35. @Rehmat
    Linh Dinh must be proud of himself being a good storyteller while masking the realities on ground from his readers.

    On May 6, 2014, the deputy head of Dnipropetrovsk, B. Filatov and Ukrainian oligarch Kolomoyski announced a plan to build a New Zion: Promised Land in the Zionist liberated Ukraine. Kolomoyski’s fellow Jewish oligarch Petro Poroshenko is the current president of Ukraine.

    The radical Zionist Chabad Jewish sect in the United States wants its community to move to Ukraine, their original Khazarian homeland.

    Jews, who make only 0.2% of Ukraine’s total population, have total monopoly over country’s government, media and finance. In 2005, professor Vasyl Yaremenko in an article, entitled ‘Jews in Ukraine today: reality without myths’, wrote: “Ukrainians need to know that the mass media is completely in the hands of Jews, and everything that we watch or read is the product of Jewish ideology…”

    https://rehmat1.com/2014/08/16/ukraine-new-jewish-promised-land/

    I should know better than reply to your comment… but
    you do realize most of your assertions are drivel based on very questionable, biased “evidence” ?

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    • Replies: @Rehmat
    I know Moshe because I always hate to quote Israeli Wikipedia of the Jew York Times to support my point.

    However, I can quote another ugly truth from Ukraine .....

    In January 2015, Alexander Zakharchenko, prime minister of the separatist Donesk People Republic called the US-EU installed regime in Kiev as controlled by "miserable Jews".

    The Washington-based Atlantic Council of the United States with cooperation of Jewish think tanks Brookings Institute and the Center for a New American Security in its February report has urged Obama administration to arm Kiev regime against Russia.

    In September, 2014, Jew professor Joshua Tucker (New York University) announced the founding a new anti-Russia propaganda website, VoxUkraine. Tucker has its own blog at the Washington Post.

    https://rehmat1.com/2015/02/05/donetsk-pm-ukraine-run-by-miserable-jews/
  36. @AP
    Because joining the 25% Muslim Eurasian Union, with the loathsome Yanukovich as the local satrap, would have been preferable? Anything to spite the neocons though, right?

    One can almost write a similar post about Manhattan, gratuitously mentioning the homeless (on a recent trip I noticed that all of the stalls in the 3rd floor bathroom of the fancy upper west side Columbus circle mall were occupied by sleeping homeless) and rats in central park to show how the city in spite of hipsters drinking expensive drinks is falling apart.

    Because joining the 25% Muslim Eurasian Union, with the loathsome Yanukovich as the local satrap, would have been preferable?

    If you look at the current situation in Ukraine objectively, with its loathsome government robbing its people while licking the asses of neocons abroad and neo-Nazis at home, it’s hard to argue that it would be worse.

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    • Agree: Seamus Padraig, Glossy
    • Replies: @Seamus Padraig

    If you look at the current situation in Ukraine objectively, with its loathsome government robbing its people while licking the asses of neocons abroad and neo-Nazis at home, it’s hard to argue that it would be worse.
     
    You fail to understand the truly pathological depths of the svidomite grievance mentality, Thirdeye. These crazy people would rather spend eternity in a Western hell than in a Russian heaven. That would teach those moskali bastards to disrespect them!
  37. @Randal

    The US didn’t have to do a thing in Ukraine.
     
    Funny because some of your State Dept reptiles and busybodying politicians seemed remarkably busy there for "not doing a thing".

    Maidan was not a US effort, but a spontaneous uprising of the people themselves.
     
    "The people" used here in the sense the old commies and socialists used to use it, to pretend the subsection (whether or not a majority, for whatever that might be worth) of the people that says what they want to hear is "the people", and the others don't count.

    The US is a handy booger man to point to, but the US doesn’t have the energy or competence to do half of what it’s blamed for.
     
    Funny, when you are the world's only superpower with a military budget almost matching the rest of the world combined (and most of the rest of the world's military spending by allies or neutrals anyway), and your spending (including by corrupt NGOs) on interfering in other countries' affairs through "democracy promotion" etc is bigger than many countries' entire spending budgets, you will find you don't need to exert much competence or energy to ruin their lives.

    Yes there are always existing grievances in the countries where the US foments colour revolutions. The US rarely if ever manufactures conflict out of nothing. But that doesn't mean the US's interference can be disregarded.

    Most protest movements fade away in frustration, loss of hope and compromise, as the government side resists total surrender and offers compromises of varying degrees of significance. Change happens slowly, but broadly peacefully, not quickly enough for the hotheads and those with ulterior motives, of course. And that's how it should be, because the alternative risks opening the gates of hell. If you hold out the hope of superpower backing and openly urge and inspire protesters and the extremists amongst them to stay the course and go for maximal results, you are to blame for the results. That's what the US State Dept and the likes of McCain and Murphy did in Kiev.

    ” If you hold out the hope of superpower backing and openly urge and inspire protesters and the extremists amongst them to stay the course and go for maximal results, you are to blame for the results.”

    That’s exactly what Obama did in Syria, and McCain went there also – to meet with his heart-eating beneficiaries. Now they pretend innocence and throw all the blame on the Saudis, etc.

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  38. @szopen
    Some say a million, but they are not "refugees" in a strict sense - they are temporary workers, usually.

    Do Ukrainian youth go to Poland to work as migrant farm laborers, like they go to Belarus?

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    • Replies: @Thirdeye
    Last I heard, the market for foreign temp labor in Poland was drying up, resulting in denials of entry at the Ukrainian border. Poland's ag exports dropped dramatically as a result of Russian counter-sanctions restricting import of food from Poland.

    Ukrainians seeking work in Belarus seems like a remarkable reversal. It used to be the other way around, when the per capita GDP of Belarus was the lowest in Europe. Maybe that's changed.
  39. “Hearing American music everywhere, much of it black, I can’t help but conclude how greatly Uncle Sam has benefited from driving his black population into the deepest despair or half mad, for whether they moan most pathetically (blues), blather ecstatically or even incoherently (jazz), or lash out obscenely (rap,) the United States does not lose but gain billions of admirers. Blacks, then, are a huge component of Uncle Sam’s soft power.”

    Hmmm…so blues is pathetic moaning, jazz is ecstatic/incoherent blathering – and both came about because the US drove its black population into despair & madness – and all this despair & madness-driven moaning & blathering has gained the US billions of admirers…

    Yeah, well, whatever.

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  40. @Quartermaster
    The US didn't have to do a thing in Ukraine. The political apparatus, like that of all former Soviet provinces, did a good job of tearing the country down.

    Maidan was not a US effort, but a spontaneous uprising of the people themselves. The US is a handy booger man to point to, but the US doesn't have the energy or competence to do half of what it's blamed for.

    The Entire country voted overwhelmingly for independence, and that included Crimea and the Donbas. Russia had already resigned itself to losing Sevastopol and was building a Naval base at Novorossiysk. It was only after the people of Ukraine overthrew Putin's boy that Putin decided to take Crimea and foment war in the Donbas. Now the criminal regime in Russia has itself in a sticky financial situation and will probably not be able to hold what it has stolen.

    People like Dinh often go into things like this having bought into the propaganda that has been spewed, instead of actually looking into what has happened. Ukraine was advancing until the criminal regime in Moscow decided it didn't like losing its puppet. Many in Ukraine are working to shed the corrupt government agents it has inherited, but having a war shoved down your throat tends to hold up anything that takes money.

    The US didn’t have to do a thing in Ukraine.

    Not according to Victoria Nudelman. The US State Department spent $5 billion on regime change in Ukraine.

    The US is a handy booger man to point to, but the US doesn’t have the energy or competence to do half of what it’s blamed for.

    Yes, snotty and incompetent. The results of the Ukraine regime change project, just like the results of the Iraq, Libya, Egypt, and Syria regime change projects, highlight that snotty incompetence.

    The Entire country voted overwhelmingly for independence, and that included Crimea and the Donbas.

    Yes they did. It was the quickest way out of the Soviet system. And you know something else? The only reason the Donbas and Crimea remained part of the Ukrainian state was that Gorbachev wheeled and dealed to prevent referenda on independent statehood for those areas, which according to contemporary polling would most likely have passed. Russia saw a singular Ukrainian state as the path to political stability. That remained their approach after the Donbas rebelled, exerting their influence to marginalize separatist tendencies and promote federalist tendencies. The Minsk process is the Ukrainian government’s last chance to keep national unity, but they are too venal and stupid to realize it.

    Now the criminal regime in Russia has itself in a sticky financial situation and will probably not be able to hold what it has stolen.

    Switch “Ukraine” for “Russia” and you have an accurate statement. Kiev kleptocrats have been robbing the rest of Ukraine for years, under both pro-Russian and pro-Western governments. Now they’ve become the biggest factor threatening the viability of the Ukrainian state. The central Ukrainian government provides no benefit to its people anywhere in Ukraine.

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  41. @AP

    Svidomites are fools, and apart from the tiny proportion who succeed in stealing from all the rest, they continue to pay dearly for their folly.
     
    The parts of Ukraine doing most poorly economically are the eastern, less patriotic parts that were economically most tied to Russia. They are the ones paying most dearly for problems with Russia. The pro-western, Ukrainian parts of doing okay. Here is GRP by region for 2014:

    http://www.ukrstat.gov.ua/operativ/operativ2008/vvp/vrp/vrp2008_u.htm

    Luhansk and Donetsk showed 50% and 30% decline, respectively. Kiev City had 1% economic growth; Lviv declined only 1.4%. I haven't seen the figures for 2015, I suspect they are similar.

    How funny that the pro-Russians laughing at Ukrainians are essentially just laughing at the misery of their own allies.

    The parts of Ukraine doing most poorly economically are the eastern, less patriotic parts that were economically most tied to Russia. They are the ones paying most dearly for problems with Russia. The pro-western, Ukrainian parts of doing okay. Here is GRP by region for 2014:

    http://www.ukrstat.gov.ua/operativ/operativ2008/vvp/vrp/vrp2008_u.htm

    Luhansk and Donetsk showed 50% and 30% decline, respectively. Kiev City had 1% economic growth; Lviv declined only 1.4%.

    Well DUH!!! Being invaded by ethnic cleansers using heavy weaponry to destroy your cities and economic infrastructure will put a serious crimp in your economy.

    I haven’t seen the figures for 2015, I suspect they are similar.

    Don’t bet on it.

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    • Replies: @AP

    Well DUH!!! Being invaded by ethnic cleansers using heavy weaponry to destroy your cities and economic infrastructure will put a serious crimp in your economy.
     
    So you admit that the parts of Ukraine with the collapsed economy are not the patriotic parts but the pro-Russian ones. And thus, that Russian "well-wishers" gloating about Ukraine's poor post-revolutionary economy are most of all laughing at the plight of their pro-Russian compatriots.

    That being said, not all of the pro-Russian parts had a collapsed economy. Kharkiv did not, despite Ukrainian government and military presence. Therefore, Ukrainian government military and its weapons were not sufficient for destruction. The key variable determining whether or not a piece of Ukraine has a collapsed economy was not the presence of the Ukrainian government and its weapons, but rather the presence of anti-government fighters and their weapons.

    If you look at the current situation in Ukraine objectively
     
    Unfortunately, you struggle to look at the current situation in Ukraine objectively. You demonstrate this when you claimed: "Not according to Victoria Nudelman. The US State Department spent $5 billion on regime change in Ukraine." The $5 billion she referred to was the total amount spent on all aid from 1991. The state department wasn't trying to overthrow Yanukovich in 1991.

    In 2013 Yanukovich was set to bind Ukraine into the Eurasian Union, linking it to Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan, and cutting it off from its western Polish neighbor. This would also have cemented his non-Ukrainian rule over Ukraine's natives. Ukrainians agreed and agree that this was the worse option, as evidenced by their mass participation in the uprising against Yanukovich and their continuing unwavering support for a pro-western than pro-Eurasian course and for political parties that support such a course (even if their choice of particular party changes).
  42. @szopen
    Some say a million, but they are not "refugees" in a strict sense - they are temporary workers, usually.

    The line between “refugee” and “migrant” is pretty fuzzy. If someone is economically dislocated and seeks work abroad, they might be considered “economic refugees.”

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    • Replies: @Romanian
    No, it's not fuzzy. There are clear international definitions and guidelines for refugee, immigrant, asylee etc. Poland had many Ukrainian migrant workers, but has now taken in many refugees as well. It probably distinguishes them by checking their area of origin. If there's a war there, and they have arrived with old folks and children, despite costs of living in Western Ukraine being lower (so one could send money earned in Poland to them there), then they are probably refugees. Economic refugee sounds like a liberal invention for not having the moral right to turn anyone away at the gates.
  43. @RobinG
    Do Ukrainian youth go to Poland to work as migrant farm laborers, like they go to Belarus?

    Last I heard, the market for foreign temp labor in Poland was drying up, resulting in denials of entry at the Ukrainian border. Poland’s ag exports dropped dramatically as a result of Russian counter-sanctions restricting import of food from Poland.

    Ukrainians seeking work in Belarus seems like a remarkable reversal. It used to be the other way around, when the per capita GDP of Belarus was the lowest in Europe. Maybe that’s changed.

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    • Replies: @RobinG
    Hmmm, what's your timeline for 'used to be'? I'm quite out of date, myself. Walking on a rural cart-road in fall of 2002, we saw Ukrainian young adults gleaning mangels and loading them onto a truck. My companion said, "They are not ours. (Oni Ukrainyets.)" At the time I wondered what things must be like in Ukraine.
    , @Davidski

    Poland’s ag exports dropped dramatically as a result of Russian counter-sanctions restricting import of food from Poland.
     
    Where are you getting this information?

    Poland hasn't exported much to Russia since the 1990s.
    , @szopen
    "dramatically" is a wrong word. This year our export is record high, though agriculture experienced some bumps before it could redirect the output to the western Europe and to the Russia via different proxies. Sanctions have quite small effects, from what I heard.
  44. @Thirdeye

    Because joining the 25% Muslim Eurasian Union, with the loathsome Yanukovich as the local satrap, would have been preferable?
     
    If you look at the current situation in Ukraine objectively, with its loathsome government robbing its people while licking the asses of neocons abroad and neo-Nazis at home, it's hard to argue that it would be worse.

    If you look at the current situation in Ukraine objectively, with its loathsome government robbing its people while licking the asses of neocons abroad and neo-Nazis at home, it’s hard to argue that it would be worse.

    You fail to understand the truly pathological depths of the svidomite grievance mentality, Thirdeye. These crazy people would rather spend eternity in a Western hell than in a Russian heaven. That would teach those moskali bastards to disrespect them!

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  45. I am disappointed to find the readable , observant and apparently empathetic Linh Dinh writing dogmatically as if he knows anything about the origins of the Maidan affair and the geo-politics affecting Ukraine. Why should we regard you as any kind of authority on Ukraine or the policies or actions of Russia or the US in relation to it?

    And while I am posing questions….Is there anyone who can argue convincingly that there is overwhelmingly strong neo-con anti-Russian influence on the Obama administration in relation to Ukraine or generally even though a plausible case may be made for a few billionaires money having been deployed very successfully by that minority of American Jews who are or support Israel Firsters?

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    • Replies: @anonymous
    "... as if he knows anything about the origins of the Maidan affair and the geo-politics affecting Ukraine. Why should we regard you as any kind of authority on Ukraine or the policies or actions of Russia or the US in relation to it?"

    Wouldn't any intelligent reader of this site generally have long ago reached the same conclusions as the author. Good grief, we have Nuland and a so-called ambassador to the previous Ukrainian government picking their puppet over the phone and passing out cookies to the protesters prior to the coup. No one disputes that things were in turmoil. But Uncle Sam drove it over the edge.

    If you differ with that, tell us why, please. And then explain why, in any event, your differing view would invalidate any of the author's observations or insights.

    Your point eludes me.
    , @krollchem
    Appended is a link from August 14, 2014 on the declining state of the Ukraine economy by an economist and businessman who has traveled often to Ukraine. I am sure I have given you this link before:

    https://www.sovereignman.com/podcast/podcast-014-dulce-et-decorum-est-pro-patria-mori-14818/
  46. @Thirdeye
    Last I heard, the market for foreign temp labor in Poland was drying up, resulting in denials of entry at the Ukrainian border. Poland's ag exports dropped dramatically as a result of Russian counter-sanctions restricting import of food from Poland.

    Ukrainians seeking work in Belarus seems like a remarkable reversal. It used to be the other way around, when the per capita GDP of Belarus was the lowest in Europe. Maybe that's changed.

    Hmmm, what’s your timeline for ‘used to be’? I’m quite out of date, myself. Walking on a rural cart-road in fall of 2002, we saw Ukrainian young adults gleaning mangels and loading them onto a truck. My companion said, “They are not ours. (Oni Ukrainyets.)” At the time I wondered what things must be like in Ukraine.

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  47. @Varenik
    I should know better than reply to your comment... but
    you do realize most of your assertions are drivel based on very questionable, biased "evidence" ?

    I know Moshe because I always hate to quote Israeli Wikipedia of the Jew York Times to support my point.

    However, I can quote another ugly truth from Ukraine …..

    In January 2015, Alexander Zakharchenko, prime minister of the separatist Donesk People Republic called the US-EU installed regime in Kiev as controlled by “miserable Jews”.

    The Washington-based Atlantic Council of the United States with cooperation of Jewish think tanks Brookings Institute and the Center for a New American Security in its February report has urged Obama administration to arm Kiev regime against Russia.

    In September, 2014, Jew professor Joshua Tucker (New York University) announced the founding a new anti-Russia propaganda website, VoxUkraine. Tucker has its own blog at the Washington Post.

    https://rehmat1.com/2015/02/05/donetsk-pm-ukraine-run-by-miserable-jews/

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    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    Like others curious about the extraordinary "Rehmat" troll I keep on coming back to the possibility that he is an Israeli agent - not even necessarily Jewish - whose purpose is to discredit Israel's digital enemies. How can we get up some sort of Calcutta sweep on this in case we can ever find the truth about him/her/it?
    , @Thirdeye

    Jewish think tanks Brookings Institute....
     
    The Brookings Institution is funded by Qatari royals. Are the Jewish Wahhabis or something?
  48. @RobinG
    Hmmm, what's your timeline for 'used to be'? I'm quite out of date, myself. Walking on a rural cart-road in fall of 2002, we saw Ukrainian young adults gleaning mangels and loading them onto a truck. My companion said, "They are not ours. (Oni Ukrainyets.)" At the time I wondered what things must be like in Ukraine.

    I’m more out of date than you are.

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  49. @Rehmat
    I know Moshe because I always hate to quote Israeli Wikipedia of the Jew York Times to support my point.

    However, I can quote another ugly truth from Ukraine .....

    In January 2015, Alexander Zakharchenko, prime minister of the separatist Donesk People Republic called the US-EU installed regime in Kiev as controlled by "miserable Jews".

    The Washington-based Atlantic Council of the United States with cooperation of Jewish think tanks Brookings Institute and the Center for a New American Security in its February report has urged Obama administration to arm Kiev regime against Russia.

    In September, 2014, Jew professor Joshua Tucker (New York University) announced the founding a new anti-Russia propaganda website, VoxUkraine. Tucker has its own blog at the Washington Post.

    https://rehmat1.com/2015/02/05/donetsk-pm-ukraine-run-by-miserable-jews/

    Like others curious about the extraordinary “Rehmat” troll I keep on coming back to the possibility that he is an Israeli agent – not even necessarily Jewish – whose purpose is to discredit Israel’s digital enemies. How can we get up some sort of Calcutta sweep on this in case we can ever find the truth about him/her/it?

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  50. @Rehmat
    I know Moshe because I always hate to quote Israeli Wikipedia of the Jew York Times to support my point.

    However, I can quote another ugly truth from Ukraine .....

    In January 2015, Alexander Zakharchenko, prime minister of the separatist Donesk People Republic called the US-EU installed regime in Kiev as controlled by "miserable Jews".

    The Washington-based Atlantic Council of the United States with cooperation of Jewish think tanks Brookings Institute and the Center for a New American Security in its February report has urged Obama administration to arm Kiev regime against Russia.

    In September, 2014, Jew professor Joshua Tucker (New York University) announced the founding a new anti-Russia propaganda website, VoxUkraine. Tucker has its own blog at the Washington Post.

    https://rehmat1.com/2015/02/05/donetsk-pm-ukraine-run-by-miserable-jews/

    Jewish think tanks Brookings Institute….

    The Brookings Institution is funded by Qatari royals. Are the Jewish Wahhabis or something?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Rehmat
    Thanks for proving that like other professional Israeli hasbara idiots, your brain is in the lower part of your body.

    I bet, US billionaire Haim Saban would be shocked to learn from you that his mother was not Jewish. He practically runs Brookings Institute. It has a propaganda outlet in Doha (Qatar) known as "Brookings Doha Center", which was built over a plot donated by Emir of Qatar as a payback to Washington for protecting his Crown from its 20% Shi'ite subjects.

    On September 3, 2014, Stewart Ain reported at the New York Jewish week that pro-Israel Jewish group Simon Wiesenthal Center has called upon the Cornell University to close down its medical campus in Qatar for latter’s support for the Gaza ruling Palestinian resistance group Hamas.

    The Cornell University, member of America’s elite Ivy League is a Jewish-controlled educational institution. Cornell Chairman David Skorton, vice-president for University relations, Joel Malina and Provost Kent Fuchs are all Zionist Jews.

    Rabbi Marvin Heir, the founder-dean of SWC has called Cornell’s co-operation with Qatar “outrageous”.

    https://rehmat1.com/2014/09/04/jewish-lobby-declares-academic-boycott-of-qatar/
  51. @Poles never learn

    I pray that one day they will find their own Vladimir Putin
     
    You better pray one day they find Vladimir Putin owns them.

    You better pray one day they find Vladimir Putin owns them.

    I don’t think Putin wants to own them. Neither does the EU any more. Ukraine has become dead weight.

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  52. @Avery
    Arsen Avakov is an "Armenian" in name only.
    Filthy maidano-reptile.

    When there were protests in Yerevan about electricity rates, this filth sent a letter to the organizers urging them to do a "Yerevan Maidan".
    He was naturally ignored: but the fact he sent that letter qualifies him as an anti-Armenian pond scum.

    Filthy anti-Armenian treasonous scum.
    Բոզ (whore).
    If he goes to Armenia for some reason, he will be beaten to a pulp by patriotic Armenians.

    I’m Jewish and I have similar feelings about the junta’s Jews, who are pretty much allied with Nazis. Where would the junta be without Right Sector and the Azov battalion? Can I steal the “filthy maidano-reptile” epithet for future use?

    A lot of my motivation in speaking out against Maidanite trash is to show that we’re not all like that. I’m trying to do the little that I can to impede such scum defining me.

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  53. @Thirdeye

    The parts of Ukraine doing most poorly economically are the eastern, less patriotic parts that were economically most tied to Russia. They are the ones paying most dearly for problems with Russia. The pro-western, Ukrainian parts of doing okay. Here is GRP by region for 2014:

    http://www.ukrstat.gov.ua/operativ/operativ2008/vvp/vrp/vrp2008_u.htm

    Luhansk and Donetsk showed 50% and 30% decline, respectively. Kiev City had 1% economic growth; Lviv declined only 1.4%.
     
    Well DUH!!! Being invaded by ethnic cleansers using heavy weaponry to destroy your cities and economic infrastructure will put a serious crimp in your economy.

    I haven’t seen the figures for 2015, I suspect they are similar.
     
    Don't bet on it.

    Well DUH!!! Being invaded by ethnic cleansers using heavy weaponry to destroy your cities and economic infrastructure will put a serious crimp in your economy.

    So you admit that the parts of Ukraine with the collapsed economy are not the patriotic parts but the pro-Russian ones. And thus, that Russian “well-wishers” gloating about Ukraine’s poor post-revolutionary economy are most of all laughing at the plight of their pro-Russian compatriots.

    That being said, not all of the pro-Russian parts had a collapsed economy. Kharkiv did not, despite Ukrainian government and military presence. Therefore, Ukrainian government military and its weapons were not sufficient for destruction. The key variable determining whether or not a piece of Ukraine has a collapsed economy was not the presence of the Ukrainian government and its weapons, but rather the presence of anti-government fighters and their weapons.

    If you look at the current situation in Ukraine objectively

    Unfortunately, you struggle to look at the current situation in Ukraine objectively. You demonstrate this when you claimed: “Not according to Victoria Nudelman. The US State Department spent $5 billion on regime change in Ukraine.” The $5 billion she referred to was the total amount spent on all aid from 1991. The state department wasn’t trying to overthrow Yanukovich in 1991.

    In 2013 Yanukovich was set to bind Ukraine into the Eurasian Union, linking it to Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan, and cutting it off from its western Polish neighbor. This would also have cemented his non-Ukrainian rule over Ukraine’s natives. Ukrainians agreed and agree that this was the worse option, as evidenced by their mass participation in the uprising against Yanukovich and their continuing unwavering support for a pro-western than pro-Eurasian course and for political parties that support such a course (even if their choice of particular party changes).

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    • Replies: @Thirdeye

    Therefore, Ukrainian government military and its weapons were not sufficient for destruction.
     
    Yeah, they had to be actually blowing up the industrial facilities, utilities, transportation, and driving civilians away to make a difference.

    The key variable determining whether or not a piece of Ukraine has a collapsed economy was not the presence of the Ukrainian government and its weapons, but rather the presence of anti-government fighters and their weapons.
     
    Those were the ones defending the industrial facilities, utilities, transportation, and civilians from the fascist invaders who were blowing everything up.

    The $5 billion she referred to was the total amount spent on all aid from 1991.
     
    It was all directed towards assuring Ukraine's "European future" under the likes of Yushenko and Poroshenko.

    In 2013 Yanukovich was set to bind Ukraine into the Eurasian Union, linking it to Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan, and cutting it off from its western Polish neighbor. This would also have cemented his non-Ukrainian rule over Ukraine’s natives.
     
    You mean like handing over control to the EU, the IMF, and the various non-Ukrainian toads in the current government? You walked right into that one, chump.

    Ukrainians agreed and agree that this was the worse option, as evidenced by their mass participation in the uprising against Yanukovich.....
     
    The protests were against the corruption under Yakunovich. The neo-Nazis and the pro-EU faction used the chaos for their own agenda. What the protesters thought they were buying wasn't what they were actually sold. The current government is just as corrupt as the one thrown out in the coup. In case you haven't been paying attention, that's been in the news lately. Along with the economy across the Ukraine, east and west, continuing its slide into the shitter.

    .....and their continuing unwavering support for a pro-western than pro-Eurasian course and for political parties that support such a course (even if their choice of particular party changes).
     
    HAHAHAHAHA! GOOD ONE! Even without all the outlawed parties, the kiss-the-ass-of-the-West faction lost heavily in the regional elections.
    , @annamaria
    "...non-Ukrainian rule over Ukraine’s natives..."
    This definition is rather fitting for the current government in Kiev.
    You have been carefully omitting the fact that the Ukrainian citizens in east Ukraine have been fighting for federalization - you know, the same arrangement that has been enjoyed by the overseas "beacon of democracy." And it is not honest to overlook the sudden pop-up of the then CIA Director Mr. Brennan n Kiev on the eve of Kiev-initiated military activities against the pro-federalization citizens of Ukraine. Another important fact that does not fit your pseudo-patriotic narrative is the role of neo-Nazis in the "most blatant coup d'etat."
    The anti-curruption protest by people of Ukraine has been appropriated by the US assets (see your current leaders) and this "appropriation" brought nothing good to the ordinary Ukrainians but more corruption (see the current corruption index for Ukraine), deprivation, and sufferings.
    , @Andrew

    So you admit that the parts of Ukraine with the collapsed economy are not the patriotic parts but the pro-Russian ones.
     
    The entire Ukraine has a collapsed economy, not just the war destroyed Donbass. The level of economic activity is in a continuous freefall from the destruction of Donbass by the Ukrainian Army, the loss of trade with Russia, the collapse of steel, iron ore, and wheat prices, and the waste of the state treasury on fighting its citizens in the east combined with austerity measures taking money away from the common people.

    The key variable determining whether or not a piece of Ukraine has a collapsed economy was not the presence of the Ukrainian government and its weapons, but rather the presence of anti-government fighters and their weapons.
     
    The key variable is actually whether or not a given area has been attacked with heavy weaponry by the Ukrainian Army, by which I mean aerial bombing campaigns, firing Tochka-U balistic missiles, and the use of multiple launch rocket systems, howitzers and heavy mortars, and especially the use of these weapons against industrial facilities and civil infrastructure. Anti-government fighters and weapons were present in eastern Ukraine from April to July with little effect on production activities, but when the heavy government military campaign against central Donbass began after the fall of Slavyansk, production activities plummeted.

    cutting it off from its western Polish neighbor
     
    Didn't Poland cut itself off from Ukraine first by reorienting its economy away from Ukraine, Belarus, and Russia and towards Germany? So Poland made a conscious choice to leave Ukraine in the dust. Or is the ability to relink up with Poland like in the middle ages and follow her wherever she goes the sine qua non of Ukrainian identity and policy? After all, what is Ukraine without Poland but simply the southern portion of a single indivisible Russian motherland?

    This would also have cemented his non-Ukrainian rule over Ukraine’s natives.
     
    You need to define this word you keep using. Who or what is a "Ukrainian" in you mind, and where did the fall down from out of the sky? The word barely existed before 1914. If you look up US immigration records, you will find no one declaring their nationality to be Ukrainian at Ellis Island prior to 1914. If you look at Churches now termed "Ukrainian" you find that in 1914 they called themselves "Russian", such as the American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Church which was formed by people from Transcarpathia and Lviv. Apparently they were not aware they were Ukrainian when they named their Church. I have a 1913 Encyclopedia Britannica - it is silent on this word.

    Its obvious to me by this word you mean the inhabitants of far west Ukraine in Galicia and Volhynia and perhaps central Ukraine, and that you apparently exclude many or most of the people of southern and eastern Ukraine. If you do exclude them, then why are you so opposed to them forming their own country separate from Ukraine?

    Lastly, do you view Ukrainian identity as being exclusively a blood tie of common descent? How far back does the blood tie need to go "unpolluted" by mixing with people from across some arbitrary line on the ground? Is that why you exclude Yanukovich, who was born inside the current state borders of Ukraine, as not being a Ukrainian native? How "pure" are the western Ukrainians anyway, seeing as they mixed and intermarried freely with Poles, Hungarians, and Germans prior to 1945?
  54. anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @Wizard of Oz
    I am disappointed to find the readable , observant and apparently empathetic Linh Dinh writing dogmatically as if he knows anything about the origins of the Maidan affair and the geo-politics affecting Ukraine. Why should we regard you as any kind of authority on Ukraine or the policies or actions of Russia or the US in relation to it?

    And while I am posing questions....Is there anyone who can argue convincingly that there is overwhelmingly strong neo-con anti-Russian influence on the Obama administration in relation to Ukraine or generally even though a plausible case may be made for a few billionaires money having been deployed very successfully by that minority of American Jews who are or support Israel Firsters?

    “… as if he knows anything about the origins of the Maidan affair and the geo-politics affecting Ukraine. Why should we regard you as any kind of authority on Ukraine or the policies or actions of Russia or the US in relation to it?”

    Wouldn’t any intelligent reader of this site generally have long ago reached the same conclusions as the author. Good grief, we have Nuland and a so-called ambassador to the previous Ukrainian government picking their puppet over the phone and passing out cookies to the protesters prior to the coup. No one disputes that things were in turmoil. But Uncle Sam drove it over the edge.

    If you differ with that, tell us why, please. And then explain why, in any event, your differing view would invalidate any of the author’s observations or insights.

    Your point eludes me.

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  55. @Anonymous
    Ah but at one point Canada was 100% Native American. Or Redskinned if you want to call them. Then the white man started to arrive.

    These white men did not think about what was best for the natives, they just arrived and took all the land.

    So you see, it is just history coming around full circle.

    A quibble – there was no Canada. A nation is distinct from its government/form of organization and distinct from its territory. Canada was created by and for White people, and so has been peopled by them from the start, its culture and institutions based on its Anglo-French roots. Would Canada have had 30 million people today had it not been for Western technology? How many Natives were there in Canada? And how many are there now? The US imported 300 thousand slaves, who are not 40 million strong and the richest Africans on the planet.

    Go far back enough and every place had different peoples, if it had any at all. But they are assimilated, absorbed, killed or simply die off.

    Maybe Canadian should learn from its First Nations (who are not “redskins”) and not lose their country to moneyed Asians and third worlders. They’d probably keep the name and a semblance of the institutions, but everything else would change.

    The same for Australia.

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    • Replies: @rvg
    That matters little if your children are Eurasian/Mulatto/Triracial/Multiracial and so you have a personal stake in ensuring that the rest of the population would look like your racially ambiguous mystery meat children, the future Australian population will look like Fulgencio Batista, who had Chinese, White, Black, and American Indian ancestry.
  56. @Thirdeye
    The line between "refugee" and "migrant" is pretty fuzzy. If someone is economically dislocated and seeks work abroad, they might be considered "economic refugees."

    No, it’s not fuzzy. There are clear international definitions and guidelines for refugee, immigrant, asylee etc. Poland had many Ukrainian migrant workers, but has now taken in many refugees as well. It probably distinguishes them by checking their area of origin. If there’s a war there, and they have arrived with old folks and children, despite costs of living in Western Ukraine being lower (so one could send money earned in Poland to them there), then they are probably refugees. Economic refugee sounds like a liberal invention for not having the moral right to turn anyone away at the gates.

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  57. Linh,

    Thanks for writing this. I haven’t been in Ukraine since the revolution started, but conditions were pretty much just as you describe prior to the start, as I’m sure you know. I’m sure they’re worse now, but of course they were pretty darn poor prior as well.

    I just have a soft spot in my heart for this country, but then my father’s side of the family is from there. I know little of my family’s past and wish I know more.

    It’s just mind blowing to me that the US is behaving so poorly and the media doesn’t call out the gov’t.

    I will just disagree with one word in your story: Ukraine is not a small country. Not in terms of sheer size, nor in terms of geography, nor in terms of culture or its peoples.

    I just wish there was something I could do, and moreso wish that my government would get the fuck out of their business.

    I’m not going to go into the jewish component of this, but it would be nice to see a journalist do so at some point.

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  58. @AP

    Well DUH!!! Being invaded by ethnic cleansers using heavy weaponry to destroy your cities and economic infrastructure will put a serious crimp in your economy.
     
    So you admit that the parts of Ukraine with the collapsed economy are not the patriotic parts but the pro-Russian ones. And thus, that Russian "well-wishers" gloating about Ukraine's poor post-revolutionary economy are most of all laughing at the plight of their pro-Russian compatriots.

    That being said, not all of the pro-Russian parts had a collapsed economy. Kharkiv did not, despite Ukrainian government and military presence. Therefore, Ukrainian government military and its weapons were not sufficient for destruction. The key variable determining whether or not a piece of Ukraine has a collapsed economy was not the presence of the Ukrainian government and its weapons, but rather the presence of anti-government fighters and their weapons.

    If you look at the current situation in Ukraine objectively
     
    Unfortunately, you struggle to look at the current situation in Ukraine objectively. You demonstrate this when you claimed: "Not according to Victoria Nudelman. The US State Department spent $5 billion on regime change in Ukraine." The $5 billion she referred to was the total amount spent on all aid from 1991. The state department wasn't trying to overthrow Yanukovich in 1991.

    In 2013 Yanukovich was set to bind Ukraine into the Eurasian Union, linking it to Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan, and cutting it off from its western Polish neighbor. This would also have cemented his non-Ukrainian rule over Ukraine's natives. Ukrainians agreed and agree that this was the worse option, as evidenced by their mass participation in the uprising against Yanukovich and their continuing unwavering support for a pro-western than pro-Eurasian course and for political parties that support such a course (even if their choice of particular party changes).

    Therefore, Ukrainian government military and its weapons were not sufficient for destruction.

    Yeah, they had to be actually blowing up the industrial facilities, utilities, transportation, and driving civilians away to make a difference.

    The key variable determining whether or not a piece of Ukraine has a collapsed economy was not the presence of the Ukrainian government and its weapons, but rather the presence of anti-government fighters and their weapons.

    Those were the ones defending the industrial facilities, utilities, transportation, and civilians from the fascist invaders who were blowing everything up.

    The $5 billion she referred to was the total amount spent on all aid from 1991.

    It was all directed towards assuring Ukraine’s “European future” under the likes of Yushenko and Poroshenko.

    In 2013 Yanukovich was set to bind Ukraine into the Eurasian Union, linking it to Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan, and cutting it off from its western Polish neighbor. This would also have cemented his non-Ukrainian rule over Ukraine’s natives.

    You mean like handing over control to the EU, the IMF, and the various non-Ukrainian toads in the current government? You walked right into that one, chump.

    Ukrainians agreed and agree that this was the worse option, as evidenced by their mass participation in the uprising against Yanukovich…..

    The protests were against the corruption under Yakunovich. The neo-Nazis and the pro-EU faction used the chaos for their own agenda. What the protesters thought they were buying wasn’t what they were actually sold. The current government is just as corrupt as the one thrown out in the coup. In case you haven’t been paying attention, that’s been in the news lately. Along with the economy across the Ukraine, east and west, continuing its slide into the shitter.

    …..and their continuing unwavering support for a pro-western than pro-Eurasian course and for political parties that support such a course (even if their choice of particular party changes).

    HAHAHAHAHA! GOOD ONE! Even without all the outlawed parties, the kiss-the-ass-of-the-West faction lost heavily in the regional elections.

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    • Replies: @Avery
    {The current government is just as corrupt as the one thrown out in the coup. }

    [Ukrainians Disillusioned With Leadership] (December 2015)
    http://www.gallup.com/poll/187931/ukrainians-disillusioned-leadership.aspx

    {President Petro Poroshenko is now less popular than his predecessor Viktor Yanukovych was before he was ousted. After more than a year in office, 17% of Ukrainians approve of the job that Poroshenko is doing. }

    Where is Victoria Nudelman when the long suffering people of Ukraine need her.
    , @AP

    The key variable determining whether or not a piece of Ukraine has a collapsed economy was not the presence of the Ukrainian government and its weapons, but rather the presence of anti-government fighters and their weapons.

    Those were the ones defending the industrial facilities, utilities, transportation, and civilians from the fascist invaders who were blowing everything up.
     

    Yet, where there were no Russian fighters "defending industrial facilities, utilities, transportation, and civilians" - such as in Kharkiv - then these things weren't damaged or destroyed.

    The presence of the so-called defenders was the cause of the destruction. Otherwise, areas without such "defenders" would also have been ruined. But they weren't. Kharkiv, Zaporizhia, etc. aren't destroyed. Only areas with "defenders" are.


    The $5 billion she referred to was the total amount spent on all aid from 1991.

    It was all directed towards assuring Ukraine’s “European future” under the likes of Yushenko and Poroshenko.
     

    Some was directed for cleaning up Chernobyl, and other non-political uses.

    So, do you concede that $5 billion wasn't spent on Maidan?


    In 2013 Yanukovich was set to bind Ukraine into the Eurasian Union, linking it to Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan, and cutting it off from its western Polish neighbor. This would also have cemented his non-Ukrainian rule over Ukraine’s natives.

    You mean like handing over control to the EU, the IMF, and the various non-Ukrainian toads in the current government?
     

    Well, as I had pointed out, before the revolution Ukraine was ruled by a non-Ukrainian president, a non-Ukrainian immigrant Prime Minister, and a non-Ukrainian immigrant defense minister. They were replaced by actual Ukrainians, for the most part (a Georgian governor and Lithuanian minister is not nearly as substantial of a foreign element as is the actual presidency and prime minister).

    "Control" by EU and IMF is a choice by the natives. They wanted ties to the EU, and they wanted pro-Western parties in charge. Control by the Eurasian Union was not the choice of the natives.

    Do you feel the difference?


    The protests were against the corruption under Yakunovich.
     
    Given the fact that you had repeated the foolish claim that $5 billion was spent by the USA on the Revolution, your knowledge about the protests, what happened, and why is suspect.

    There were many reasons for the protests, and corruption was an important one. There was also a preference for a European rather Eurasian trajectory, and opposition to Yanukovich's authoritarianism.

    Protesters were mostly native ethnic Ukrainians from the country's west and center.


    Along with the economy across the Ukraine, east and west, continuing its slide into the shitter.
     
    You are wrong as usual. Several Ukrainian oblasts (with about a quarter of Ukraine's population) have experienced economic growth since the revolution. Vynnytsia's economy grew over 7% in 2014, for example.

    …..and their continuing unwavering support for a pro-western than pro-Eurasian course and for political parties that support such a course (even if their choice of particular party changes).

    HAHAHAHAHA! GOOD ONE! Even without all the outlawed parties, the kiss-the-ass-of-the-West faction lost heavily in the regional elections.
     

    Pro-western parties won a landslide in the regional elections. The only difference is that voters have shifted their preference from some pro-western parties to others. The pro-western orientation remains strong.

    You truly are clueless about Ukraine, aren't you. As you can see, various pro-Western parties continued to win in most of the regions during the regional elections:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_local_elections,_2015#/media/File:%D0%92%D0%B8%D0%B1%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B8_%D0%B4%D0%BE_%D0%9E%D0%9C%D0%A1%D0%A3_2015_%D0%9E%D0%B1%D0%BB%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B4%D0%B8.PNG

    The map, while showing some regions as being "blue", actually overrepresents the anti-West vote btw. For example the pro-Russian Opposition Bloc is shown as "winning" Dnipropetrovsk on the map. Well, this party got 38% of the vote there. However Ukrop got 21%, Poroshenko's Party got 12%, Fatherland 7.5%, Lyashko's Radicals 6.7% and Samopomich 6.7%. So in that region the pro-Western parties collectively got over 50%.

  59. @Thirdeye
    Last I heard, the market for foreign temp labor in Poland was drying up, resulting in denials of entry at the Ukrainian border. Poland's ag exports dropped dramatically as a result of Russian counter-sanctions restricting import of food from Poland.

    Ukrainians seeking work in Belarus seems like a remarkable reversal. It used to be the other way around, when the per capita GDP of Belarus was the lowest in Europe. Maybe that's changed.

    Poland’s ag exports dropped dramatically as a result of Russian counter-sanctions restricting import of food from Poland.

    Where are you getting this information?

    Poland hasn’t exported much to Russia since the 1990s.

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    • Replies: @Cochore
    The Polish ambassador to the U.S. must then have other motivations for releasing this cringe-making video:
    Polish Ambassador’s "Freedom Apples" Appeal
    , @siberiancat
    If you are willing to say the same about Italy, France, Czech Republic, sure.
    http://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/country/pol/#Destinations
  60. “Aqaba is over there. It is only a matter of going.”

    Ukraine is over there. It is only a matter of not going.

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  61. How very sad! The Ukrainian people deserve a lot better. The US, as usual has brought disaster to another nation. It preaches democracy etc. but actually is an oligarchic despotism. It couldn’t give a hoot about the Ukrainian people. They are simply peasants to be used and discarded. The US installed an illegitimate Kiev government for its own ulterior purposes no American could care less. They have been snookered and done in. What a shame!

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  62. anon says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @Anonymous
    Ah but at one point Canada was 100% Native American. Or Redskinned if you want to call them. Then the white man started to arrive.

    These white men did not think about what was best for the natives, they just arrived and took all the land.

    So you see, it is just history coming around full circle.

    “…they just arrived and took all the land”..

    And there was a great deal to take sport. The landmass that whites would create as Canada was almost 4,000, 000 square miles in size and was “occupied” at most by perhaps 300,000 Aboriginals. In other words 99% of the land was open and empty, quite unlike today with modern roads, railways, bridges, airports, cities, none of which ever existed previously.

    “..history coming around full circle.”

    Not at all. The few Indians are not “taking back” the land (most of which they never occupied,) but new arrivals are muscling in on territory they have no claim too.

    Note how you make no effort to justify colored immigration as a “good” in itself but as some kind of “penance” or “suffering” whites are supposed to endure. I see no reason to want any of it.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Lol. Your arguments were completely ineffective here.

    1) Canada today is still mainly empty land that is open and undeveloped. Trying to pick a stage of development or level of population where it is all of a sudden ok to take land is a stupid argument.

    2) White people had no claim to Canada to begin with and it didn't stop them from taking over the native population. So why should others now show respect to white claims of territory especially since whites are often times bombing the very countries people are fleeing from.

    Besides, a significant number of those immigrating back back to Canada Canada and America have Indian blood in them so their claim to the land is as is good as anyone elses.

    Also, quit feeling sorry for yourself just because your white. Colored immigrants are not a punishment the world is trying to force on white lands, colored immigration is what white people are reaping after not paying much mind to your liberal masters.
  63. @Thirdeye
    Or you could just move to Ukraine and be in an all-white utopia. Problem solved.

    All-White is a necessary, but not sufficient, condition for utopia. My experience of Russians is that they have a low-trust society, and I’d guess that Ukrainians are similar in that regard. In my utopia, it is assumed that not everybody is trying to cheat you.

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    • Replies: @AP
    Western Ukrainians are more like Poles and eastern ones are similar to Russians, so it depends on where in Ukraine you would be.
  64. @Thirdeye
    Last I heard, the market for foreign temp labor in Poland was drying up, resulting in denials of entry at the Ukrainian border. Poland's ag exports dropped dramatically as a result of Russian counter-sanctions restricting import of food from Poland.

    Ukrainians seeking work in Belarus seems like a remarkable reversal. It used to be the other way around, when the per capita GDP of Belarus was the lowest in Europe. Maybe that's changed.

    “dramatically” is a wrong word. This year our export is record high, though agriculture experienced some bumps before it could redirect the output to the western Europe and to the Russia via different proxies. Sanctions have quite small effects, from what I heard.

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  65. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    Ukraine’s economy was actually doing decently in 2013, debt as a percentage of GDP was under 50%, and unemployment was not that high by EU standards, and GDP growth was also decent at 2%.

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  66. @Romanian
    A quibble - there was no Canada. A nation is distinct from its government/form of organization and distinct from its territory. Canada was created by and for White people, and so has been peopled by them from the start, its culture and institutions based on its Anglo-French roots. Would Canada have had 30 million people today had it not been for Western technology? How many Natives were there in Canada? And how many are there now? The US imported 300 thousand slaves, who are not 40 million strong and the richest Africans on the planet.

    Go far back enough and every place had different peoples, if it had any at all. But they are assimilated, absorbed, killed or simply die off.

    Maybe Canadian should learn from its First Nations (who are not "redskins") and not lose their country to moneyed Asians and third worlders. They'd probably keep the name and a semblance of the institutions, but everything else would change.

    The same for Australia.

    That matters little if your children are Eurasian/Mulatto/Triracial/Multiracial and so you have a personal stake in ensuring that the rest of the population would look like your racially ambiguous mystery meat children, the future Australian population will look like Fulgencio Batista, who had Chinese, White, Black, and American Indian ancestry.

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  67. Effects of Russian embargo on Polish agricultural export:

    2013: 20.4 mld euros (total agrucultural products, “food exports” somewhat lower. DOn’t ask me about difference, I don’t know)
    2014: 21.9 mld euros, sanctions introduced, export to Russia dropped by 70%.
    2015: 25 mld euros.

    I’d say overall the sanctions were very healthy for Polish agriculture. It seems that Polish companies have diversified their customers, with record export to such exotic countries (for us) like Egypt, Maroko, Tanzania, Saudi Arabia, Vietnam, Hong Kong and Israel.

    TOtal export raised too, up to 188.7 mld euros. I think agriculture still accounts for too high percentage of our exports (13.2%), but overall, I was positively surprised by how in good shape the economy seems to be.

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  68. @AP

    Well DUH!!! Being invaded by ethnic cleansers using heavy weaponry to destroy your cities and economic infrastructure will put a serious crimp in your economy.
     
    So you admit that the parts of Ukraine with the collapsed economy are not the patriotic parts but the pro-Russian ones. And thus, that Russian "well-wishers" gloating about Ukraine's poor post-revolutionary economy are most of all laughing at the plight of their pro-Russian compatriots.

    That being said, not all of the pro-Russian parts had a collapsed economy. Kharkiv did not, despite Ukrainian government and military presence. Therefore, Ukrainian government military and its weapons were not sufficient for destruction. The key variable determining whether or not a piece of Ukraine has a collapsed economy was not the presence of the Ukrainian government and its weapons, but rather the presence of anti-government fighters and their weapons.

    If you look at the current situation in Ukraine objectively
     
    Unfortunately, you struggle to look at the current situation in Ukraine objectively. You demonstrate this when you claimed: "Not according to Victoria Nudelman. The US State Department spent $5 billion on regime change in Ukraine." The $5 billion she referred to was the total amount spent on all aid from 1991. The state department wasn't trying to overthrow Yanukovich in 1991.

    In 2013 Yanukovich was set to bind Ukraine into the Eurasian Union, linking it to Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan, and cutting it off from its western Polish neighbor. This would also have cemented his non-Ukrainian rule over Ukraine's natives. Ukrainians agreed and agree that this was the worse option, as evidenced by their mass participation in the uprising against Yanukovich and their continuing unwavering support for a pro-western than pro-Eurasian course and for political parties that support such a course (even if their choice of particular party changes).

    “…non-Ukrainian rule over Ukraine’s natives…”
    This definition is rather fitting for the current government in Kiev.
    You have been carefully omitting the fact that the Ukrainian citizens in east Ukraine have been fighting for federalization – you know, the same arrangement that has been enjoyed by the overseas “beacon of democracy.” And it is not honest to overlook the sudden pop-up of the then CIA Director Mr. Brennan n Kiev on the eve of Kiev-initiated military activities against the pro-federalization citizens of Ukraine. Another important fact that does not fit your pseudo-patriotic narrative is the role of neo-Nazis in the “most blatant coup d’etat.”
    The anti-curruption protest by people of Ukraine has been appropriated by the US assets (see your current leaders) and this “appropriation” brought nothing good to the ordinary Ukrainians but more corruption (see the current corruption index for Ukraine), deprivation, and sufferings.

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    • Replies: @AP

    You have been carefully omitting the fact that the Ukrainian citizens in east Ukraine have been fighting for federalization – you know, the same arrangement that has been enjoyed by the overseas “beacon of democracy.”
     
    The type of "federalization" they sought was veto power over national policies and the ability to have their own trade agreements independent of the central government. This is not the same type of federalization that the US has (i.e., individual states cannot veto foreign actions, or recuse themselves from NAFTA, or join the EU, or whatever). No modern country would tolerate this.

    The Russian strategy of forcing this type of federalization on Ukraine mirrors its approach to towards Poland-Lithuania in the 18th century:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Targowica_Confederation

    In both cases, it promotes/promoted decentralization, pro-Russian oligarchs, and an ineffective central government unable to link to the west and unable to pursue independent policies.
  69. @Thirdeye

    Therefore, Ukrainian government military and its weapons were not sufficient for destruction.
     
    Yeah, they had to be actually blowing up the industrial facilities, utilities, transportation, and driving civilians away to make a difference.

    The key variable determining whether or not a piece of Ukraine has a collapsed economy was not the presence of the Ukrainian government and its weapons, but rather the presence of anti-government fighters and their weapons.
     
    Those were the ones defending the industrial facilities, utilities, transportation, and civilians from the fascist invaders who were blowing everything up.

    The $5 billion she referred to was the total amount spent on all aid from 1991.
     
    It was all directed towards assuring Ukraine's "European future" under the likes of Yushenko and Poroshenko.

    In 2013 Yanukovich was set to bind Ukraine into the Eurasian Union, linking it to Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan, and cutting it off from its western Polish neighbor. This would also have cemented his non-Ukrainian rule over Ukraine’s natives.
     
    You mean like handing over control to the EU, the IMF, and the various non-Ukrainian toads in the current government? You walked right into that one, chump.

    Ukrainians agreed and agree that this was the worse option, as evidenced by their mass participation in the uprising against Yanukovich.....
     
    The protests were against the corruption under Yakunovich. The neo-Nazis and the pro-EU faction used the chaos for their own agenda. What the protesters thought they were buying wasn't what they were actually sold. The current government is just as corrupt as the one thrown out in the coup. In case you haven't been paying attention, that's been in the news lately. Along with the economy across the Ukraine, east and west, continuing its slide into the shitter.

    .....and their continuing unwavering support for a pro-western than pro-Eurasian course and for political parties that support such a course (even if their choice of particular party changes).
     
    HAHAHAHAHA! GOOD ONE! Even without all the outlawed parties, the kiss-the-ass-of-the-West faction lost heavily in the regional elections.

    {The current government is just as corrupt as the one thrown out in the coup. }

    [Ukrainians Disillusioned With Leadership] (December 2015)

    http://www.gallup.com/poll/187931/ukrainians-disillusioned-leadership.aspx

    {President Petro Poroshenko is now less popular than his predecessor Viktor Yanukovych was before he was ousted. After more than a year in office, 17% of Ukrainians approve of the job that Poroshenko is doing. }

    Where is Victoria Nudelman when the long suffering people of Ukraine need her.

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  70. Thirdeye: Belarus is as all-white as the Ukraine (minus a tiny smattering of Tatars) and they’re doing much, much better. I’d certainly consider moving there. (I am not white btw).

    AP: You’re looking only at trend lines rather than starting points, because that’s convenient for your point. Donetsk was the second richest oblast in the Ukraine in 2013, after Kiev. Lugansk was among the more prosperous oblasts as well. Their economic collapse since then is entirely thanks to the Ukrainian nationalist government that you support.

    “Would you describe what happened in Eastern Europe in the 1989 as a staged violent and illegal coup? Would the misery of the 90s be evidence of the evil effects of western “meddling”? Not that the situation in current Ukraine is nearly as bad as it had been in the 90s.”

    Arguably, yes. The collapse of communism was a disaster for the former Soviet Union, as well as for some other countries. Most Russians today wish they had communism back. For that matter so do most *Romanians* (and they had probably the worst communist reginme in all of eastern Europe).

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  71. @Thirdeye

    Therefore, Ukrainian government military and its weapons were not sufficient for destruction.
     
    Yeah, they had to be actually blowing up the industrial facilities, utilities, transportation, and driving civilians away to make a difference.

    The key variable determining whether or not a piece of Ukraine has a collapsed economy was not the presence of the Ukrainian government and its weapons, but rather the presence of anti-government fighters and their weapons.
     
    Those were the ones defending the industrial facilities, utilities, transportation, and civilians from the fascist invaders who were blowing everything up.

    The $5 billion she referred to was the total amount spent on all aid from 1991.
     
    It was all directed towards assuring Ukraine's "European future" under the likes of Yushenko and Poroshenko.

    In 2013 Yanukovich was set to bind Ukraine into the Eurasian Union, linking it to Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan, and cutting it off from its western Polish neighbor. This would also have cemented his non-Ukrainian rule over Ukraine’s natives.
     
    You mean like handing over control to the EU, the IMF, and the various non-Ukrainian toads in the current government? You walked right into that one, chump.

    Ukrainians agreed and agree that this was the worse option, as evidenced by their mass participation in the uprising against Yanukovich.....
     
    The protests were against the corruption under Yakunovich. The neo-Nazis and the pro-EU faction used the chaos for their own agenda. What the protesters thought they were buying wasn't what they were actually sold. The current government is just as corrupt as the one thrown out in the coup. In case you haven't been paying attention, that's been in the news lately. Along with the economy across the Ukraine, east and west, continuing its slide into the shitter.

    .....and their continuing unwavering support for a pro-western than pro-Eurasian course and for political parties that support such a course (even if their choice of particular party changes).
     
    HAHAHAHAHA! GOOD ONE! Even without all the outlawed parties, the kiss-the-ass-of-the-West faction lost heavily in the regional elections.

    The key variable determining whether or not a piece of Ukraine has a collapsed economy was not the presence of the Ukrainian government and its weapons, but rather the presence of anti-government fighters and their weapons.

    Those were the ones defending the industrial facilities, utilities, transportation, and civilians from the fascist invaders who were blowing everything up.

    Yet, where there were no Russian fighters “defending industrial facilities, utilities, transportation, and civilians” – such as in Kharkiv – then these things weren’t damaged or destroyed.

    The presence of the so-called defenders was the cause of the destruction. Otherwise, areas without such “defenders” would also have been ruined. But they weren’t. Kharkiv, Zaporizhia, etc. aren’t destroyed. Only areas with “defenders” are.

    The $5 billion she referred to was the total amount spent on all aid from 1991.

    It was all directed towards assuring Ukraine’s “European future” under the likes of Yushenko and Poroshenko.

    Some was directed for cleaning up Chernobyl, and other non-political uses.

    So, do you concede that $5 billion wasn’t spent on Maidan?

    In 2013 Yanukovich was set to bind Ukraine into the Eurasian Union, linking it to Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan, and cutting it off from its western Polish neighbor. This would also have cemented his non-Ukrainian rule over Ukraine’s natives.

    You mean like handing over control to the EU, the IMF, and the various non-Ukrainian toads in the current government?

    Well, as I had pointed out, before the revolution Ukraine was ruled by a non-Ukrainian president, a non-Ukrainian immigrant Prime Minister, and a non-Ukrainian immigrant defense minister. They were replaced by actual Ukrainians, for the most part (a Georgian governor and Lithuanian minister is not nearly as substantial of a foreign element as is the actual presidency and prime minister).

    “Control” by EU and IMF is a choice by the natives. They wanted ties to the EU, and they wanted pro-Western parties in charge. Control by the Eurasian Union was not the choice of the natives.

    Do you feel the difference?

    The protests were against the corruption under Yakunovich.

    Given the fact that you had repeated the foolish claim that $5 billion was spent by the USA on the Revolution, your knowledge about the protests, what happened, and why is suspect.

    There were many reasons for the protests, and corruption was an important one. There was also a preference for a European rather Eurasian trajectory, and opposition to Yanukovich’s authoritarianism.

    Protesters were mostly native ethnic Ukrainians from the country’s west and center.

    Along with the economy across the Ukraine, east and west, continuing its slide into the shitter.

    You are wrong as usual. Several Ukrainian oblasts (with about a quarter of Ukraine’s population) have experienced economic growth since the revolution. Vynnytsia’s economy grew over 7% in 2014, for example.

    …..and their continuing unwavering support for a pro-western than pro-Eurasian course and for political parties that support such a course (even if their choice of particular party changes).

    HAHAHAHAHA! GOOD ONE! Even without all the outlawed parties, the kiss-the-ass-of-the-West faction lost heavily in the regional elections.

    Pro-western parties won a landslide in the regional elections. The only difference is that voters have shifted their preference from some pro-western parties to others. The pro-western orientation remains strong.

    You truly are clueless about Ukraine, aren’t you. As you can see, various pro-Western parties continued to win in most of the regions during the regional elections:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_local_elections,_2015#/media/File:%D0%92%D0%B8%D0%B1%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B8_%D0%B4%D0%BE_%D0%9E%D0%9C%D0%A1%D0%A3_2015_%D0%9E%D0%B1%D0%BB%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B4%D0%B8.PNG

    The map, while showing some regions as being “blue”, actually overrepresents the anti-West vote btw. For example the pro-Russian Opposition Bloc is shown as “winning” Dnipropetrovsk on the map. Well, this party got 38% of the vote there. However Ukrop got 21%, Poroshenko’s Party got 12%, Fatherland 7.5%, Lyashko’s Radicals 6.7% and Samopomich 6.7%. So in that region the pro-Western parties collectively got over 50%.

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    • Replies: @Andrew

    You truly are clueless about Ukraine, aren’t you. As you can see, various pro-Western parties continued to win in most of the regions during the regional elections:
     
    Many of the results were driven by the lack of availability of candidates to vote for which depressed the turnout in the south and east. This is especially true for voters who are Communists, since the Communist party was banned, but also for Russian and Donbass sympathizers who could not of course express their opinion without facing violence or jail.

    Crowing about winning an election where you ban much of your opposition is not much of an acocmplishment.
    , @Seamus Padraig

    Protesters were mostly native ethnic Ukrainians from the country’s west and center.
     
    Ahhh! So you now admit that they didn't represent the entire country, and that Ukraine is a multi-ethnic society.

    It is well known, for example, that voters in the east and in Crimea had gone for Yanukovich by huge margins. Overthrowing him was not only a flagrant violation of Ukraine's then constitution, but an affront to those who had voted for him. They were told, in effect, that even if they managed to win an election, it wouldn't matter. They would be defrauded of victory anyway by a bunch of mob-rule protesters acting in cahoots with the US State Department and George Soros.

    If that ever happened in my country, I'd respond exactly as people in Donetstk and Lugansk did. That's why I feel sympathetic to DNR/LNR.
  72. @Discard
    All-White is a necessary, but not sufficient, condition for utopia. My experience of Russians is that they have a low-trust society, and I'd guess that Ukrainians are similar in that regard. In my utopia, it is assumed that not everybody is trying to cheat you.

    Western Ukrainians are more like Poles and eastern ones are similar to Russians, so it depends on where in Ukraine you would be.

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  73. @Quartermaster
    The US didn't have to do a thing in Ukraine. The political apparatus, like that of all former Soviet provinces, did a good job of tearing the country down.

    Maidan was not a US effort, but a spontaneous uprising of the people themselves. The US is a handy booger man to point to, but the US doesn't have the energy or competence to do half of what it's blamed for.

    The Entire country voted overwhelmingly for independence, and that included Crimea and the Donbas. Russia had already resigned itself to losing Sevastopol and was building a Naval base at Novorossiysk. It was only after the people of Ukraine overthrew Putin's boy that Putin decided to take Crimea and foment war in the Donbas. Now the criminal regime in Russia has itself in a sticky financial situation and will probably not be able to hold what it has stolen.

    People like Dinh often go into things like this having bought into the propaganda that has been spewed, instead of actually looking into what has happened. Ukraine was advancing until the criminal regime in Moscow decided it didn't like losing its puppet. Many in Ukraine are working to shed the corrupt government agents it has inherited, but having a war shoved down your throat tends to hold up anything that takes money.

    The political apparatus, like that of all former Soviet provinces, did a good job of tearing the country down.

    Most former Soviet provinces seem to be doing pretty well, including Russia, Belarus, the Baltics, Kazakhstan, etc. The basket cases are where the US has intervened or local regimes provoked a civil war – Ukraine, Moldova, Georgia, Azerbaijan.

    Maidan was not a US effort, but a spontaneous uprising of the people themselves.

    Maybe of a spontaneous uprising of the people of Galicia and Volhynia. There was no mass uprising in the central, south and east of the country related to Maidan.

    If you would like to see what a real peaceful mass uprising looks like, go look at the film and pictures of the Donbass referendum as it occurred on May 11, 2014.

    The US is a handy booger man to point to, but the US doesn’t have the energy or competence to do half of what it’s blamed for.

    So how was Oleg Tsaraev able to give a speech a day before Maidan predicting the US would foment a civil war in Ukraine?

    The Entire country voted overwhelmingly for independence, and that included Crimea and the Donbas.

    The entire country except Galicia voted overwhelmingly to remain part of a unified Soviet Union first.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_sovereignty_referendum,_1991

    Crimea and the Donbass voted subsequently in 1994 to gain local sovereignty, close ties to Russia, and secure use of the Russian language.

    http://thekievtimes.ua/society/372400-donbass-zabytyj-referendum-1994.html

    https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Референдум_в_Донецкой_и_Луганской_областях_1994_года

    It was only after the people of Ukraine overthrew Putin’s boy that Putin decided to take Crimea and foment war in the Donbas.

    “Putin’s boy” was elected by the people of Ukraine in a free election. The overthrow of the elected government (what a democratic and “free” action!) was accomplished only by the people of far west Ukraine.

    Its fair to say Russia has never truly accepted the loss of Crimea and Sevastopol and took them back at the first opportunity.

    Now the criminal regime in Russia has itself in a sticky financial situation and will probably not be able to hold what it has stolen.

    In your wildest dreams perhaps. Who is going to dislodge them?

    Ukraine was advancing until the criminal regime in Moscow decided it didn’t like losing its puppet.

    Can you define this advancing? Advancing in being looted by the oligarchs?

    Many in Ukraine are working to shed the corrupt government agents it has inherited, but having a war shoved down your throat tends to hold up anything that takes money.

    The corrupt government was created by the native Ukrainians in 1991.

    The war was chosen by the new Maidan regime, which decided to send troops from western and central Ukraine into the east of the country to fight anyone who opposed them. It wasn’t like the Donbass invaded Kiev. Kiev could have just let Donbass go its own way without bloodshed, just like the Czechs and Slovaks respected each other by separating peacefully instead of one side invading the other.

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    • Agree: Seamus Padraig
    • Replies: @AP

    Maidan was not a US effort, but a spontaneous uprising of the people themselves.

    Maybe of a spontaneous uprising of the people of Galicia and Volhynia. There was no mass uprising in the central, south and east of the country related to Maidan.
     
    There was also mass uprising in the country's center. Kiev is in the center, after all, and while visitors from Lviv were over-represented among Maidan people (about 20% were Galicians) the majority of the protesters were locals and the protests enjoyed mass support locally.

    The Entire country voted overwhelmingly for independence, and that included Crimea and the Donbas.

    The entire country except Galicia voted overwhelmingly to remain part of a unified Soviet Union first.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_sovereignty_referendum,_1991
     
    You are not presenting this accurately. Only in Galicia was independence an option. It won there. In the rest of the Ukrainian SSR the question was one of sovereignty and this won. But those people weren't given the option of choosing independence. When, a year later, independence was made an option it was chosen overwhelmingly.

    “Putin’s boy” was elected by the people of Ukraine in a free election. The overthrow of the elected government (what a democratic and “free” action!) was accomplished only by the people of far west Ukraine.
     
    Correct. He won with less than 50% of the vote in a fair and free election. Unfortunately he then canceled the result of the previous parliamentary election (he flipped the Orange parliament Blue) and changed the election rules so that in the next parliamentary election, even though the Opposition won the popular vote easily, Yanukovich still controlled the parliament. While the next presidential election was still over a year away, Yanukovich had already managed to have a law passed that made one candidate (who was beating him in polls) ineligible to run and his police had raided the offices of another one. These inconvenient facts are forgotten by those who simply state that the elected president was overthrown.

    It was the winners of the popular vote in the previous parliamentary election who took power after Yanukovich was overthrown by the people.
  74. @AP

    Well DUH!!! Being invaded by ethnic cleansers using heavy weaponry to destroy your cities and economic infrastructure will put a serious crimp in your economy.
     
    So you admit that the parts of Ukraine with the collapsed economy are not the patriotic parts but the pro-Russian ones. And thus, that Russian "well-wishers" gloating about Ukraine's poor post-revolutionary economy are most of all laughing at the plight of their pro-Russian compatriots.

    That being said, not all of the pro-Russian parts had a collapsed economy. Kharkiv did not, despite Ukrainian government and military presence. Therefore, Ukrainian government military and its weapons were not sufficient for destruction. The key variable determining whether or not a piece of Ukraine has a collapsed economy was not the presence of the Ukrainian government and its weapons, but rather the presence of anti-government fighters and their weapons.

    If you look at the current situation in Ukraine objectively
     
    Unfortunately, you struggle to look at the current situation in Ukraine objectively. You demonstrate this when you claimed: "Not according to Victoria Nudelman. The US State Department spent $5 billion on regime change in Ukraine." The $5 billion she referred to was the total amount spent on all aid from 1991. The state department wasn't trying to overthrow Yanukovich in 1991.

    In 2013 Yanukovich was set to bind Ukraine into the Eurasian Union, linking it to Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan, and cutting it off from its western Polish neighbor. This would also have cemented his non-Ukrainian rule over Ukraine's natives. Ukrainians agreed and agree that this was the worse option, as evidenced by their mass participation in the uprising against Yanukovich and their continuing unwavering support for a pro-western than pro-Eurasian course and for political parties that support such a course (even if their choice of particular party changes).

    So you admit that the parts of Ukraine with the collapsed economy are not the patriotic parts but the pro-Russian ones.

    The entire Ukraine has a collapsed economy, not just the war destroyed Donbass. The level of economic activity is in a continuous freefall from the destruction of Donbass by the Ukrainian Army, the loss of trade with Russia, the collapse of steel, iron ore, and wheat prices, and the waste of the state treasury on fighting its citizens in the east combined with austerity measures taking money away from the common people.

    The key variable determining whether or not a piece of Ukraine has a collapsed economy was not the presence of the Ukrainian government and its weapons, but rather the presence of anti-government fighters and their weapons.

    The key variable is actually whether or not a given area has been attacked with heavy weaponry by the Ukrainian Army, by which I mean aerial bombing campaigns, firing Tochka-U balistic missiles, and the use of multiple launch rocket systems, howitzers and heavy mortars, and especially the use of these weapons against industrial facilities and civil infrastructure. Anti-government fighters and weapons were present in eastern Ukraine from April to July with little effect on production activities, but when the heavy government military campaign against central Donbass began after the fall of Slavyansk, production activities plummeted.

    cutting it off from its western Polish neighbor

    Didn’t Poland cut itself off from Ukraine first by reorienting its economy away from Ukraine, Belarus, and Russia and towards Germany? So Poland made a conscious choice to leave Ukraine in the dust. Or is the ability to relink up with Poland like in the middle ages and follow her wherever she goes the sine qua non of Ukrainian identity and policy? After all, what is Ukraine without Poland but simply the southern portion of a single indivisible Russian motherland?

    This would also have cemented his non-Ukrainian rule over Ukraine’s natives.

    You need to define this word you keep using. Who or what is a “Ukrainian” in you mind, and where did the fall down from out of the sky? The word barely existed before 1914. If you look up US immigration records, you will find no one declaring their nationality to be Ukrainian at Ellis Island prior to 1914. If you look at Churches now termed “Ukrainian” you find that in 1914 they called themselves “Russian”, such as the American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Church which was formed by people from Transcarpathia and Lviv. Apparently they were not aware they were Ukrainian when they named their Church. I have a 1913 Encyclopedia Britannica – it is silent on this word.

    Its obvious to me by this word you mean the inhabitants of far west Ukraine in Galicia and Volhynia and perhaps central Ukraine, and that you apparently exclude many or most of the people of southern and eastern Ukraine. If you do exclude them, then why are you so opposed to them forming their own country separate from Ukraine?

    Lastly, do you view Ukrainian identity as being exclusively a blood tie of common descent? How far back does the blood tie need to go “unpolluted” by mixing with people from across some arbitrary line on the ground? Is that why you exclude Yanukovich, who was born inside the current state borders of Ukraine, as not being a Ukrainian native? How “pure” are the western Ukrainians anyway, seeing as they mixed and intermarried freely with Poles, Hungarians, and Germans prior to 1945?

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    • Replies: @AP

    The entire Ukraine has a collapsed economy, not just the war destroyed Donbass.
     
    Nonsense. In 2014, five Ukrainian oblasts plus the city of Kiev experienced economic growth:

    http://www.ukrstat.gov.ua/operativ/operativ2008/vvp/vrp/vrp2008_u.htm

    Another six oblasts had modest declines of under 3%. (Russia's economy declined about 3% in 2015 - would you consider that collapse? I wouldn't).

    2015 was a little worse, but not much worse, than 2014.

    The key variable is actually whether or not a given area has been attacked with heavy weaponry by the Ukrainian Army,
     
    But since the Ukrainian army, as is evident, only attacks places where there are Russian fighters but does not attack places such as Kharkiv that are to occupied by Russian fighters, the presence of the Russian fighters determines whether or not a region is attacked or destroyed.

    Just as the people of Syria can thank Turkey, Saudi, etc. for the destruction of much of their country by supplying fighters and arms that draw government attack, so the people of Donbas can thank the Russian Rambos and their suppliers for the destruction of their homes.

    Didn’t Poland cut itself off from Ukraine first by reorienting its economy away from Ukraine, Belarus, and Russia and towards Germany? So Poland made a conscious choice to leave Ukraine in the dust. Or is the ability to relink up with Poland like in the middle ages and follow her wherever she goes the sine qua non of Ukrainian identity and policy?
     
    More like, Poland returned to its natural place in Europe, as Ukraine is doing now. Poland's task was easier because it wasn't burdoned by a large Russian minority: the ethnic Ukrainian parts of Ukraine have consistently had a pro-European wish.

    After all, what is Ukraine without Poland but simply the southern portion of a single indivisible Russian motherland
     
    Ukraine spent more time as part of Poland/Lithuania than as part of Russia. Without Russian interference it naturally tilts westward.

    This would also have cemented his non-Ukrainian rule over Ukraine’s natives.

    You need to define this word you keep using.
     
    Someone who self-identifies as a Ukrainian rather than as a member of a national minority.

    The overthrown government has a Russian-Belarusian president and a Russian prime minister who had moved to Ukraine from Russia when he was in his late thirties. Its defense minister was another Russian guy, who moved to Ukraine when he was in his twenties. These were the people ruling over Ukraine. The country's natives revolted.

    Its obvious to me by this word you mean the inhabitants of far west Ukraine in Galicia and Volhynia and perhaps central Ukraine, and that you apparently exclude many or most of the people of southern and eastern Ukraine.
     
    A good indicator would be people who consider Ukrainian to be their native language. This is not the same as people who actually speak it in daily life, but those who view it as their own (an Irishman who doesn't speak Gaelic is not an Englishman). Here's a map of where in Ukraine people identify the Ukrainian language as theirs:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_language#/media/File:Ukraine_census_2001_Ukrainian.svg

    If you do exclude them, then why are you so opposed to them forming their own country separate from Ukraine?
     
    I think the current ceasefire would make a good border. Fighting in Donbas was necessary to prevent disturbances in other areas but I would not want these regions to return to Ukraine. Russia doesn't want them either of course.

    Lastly, do you view Ukrainian identity as being exclusively a blood tie of common descent?
     
    I think self-identification is enough, no need to count grandparents or hunt for Jewish, Polish, Russian blood.

    Yanukovich's mother was Russian, and his father was a Belarussian-Polish from Belarus. He was brought up in a mostly-Russian border city. While the line of whether or not someone is a native may in some cases be ambiguous, it is not so in the case of Yanukovich. As is even more true of the overthrown prime minister Azarov, a Russia guy who moved to Ukraine in the 1980s when he was in his late thirties. These were the political leaders drawing Ukraine into a union with Russia-Eurasia, against the wishes of the Ukrainian population and even more so of the ethnic Ukrainians within the Ukraine.
  75. @Davidski

    Poland’s ag exports dropped dramatically as a result of Russian counter-sanctions restricting import of food from Poland.
     
    Where are you getting this information?

    Poland hasn't exported much to Russia since the 1990s.

    The Polish ambassador to the U.S. must then have other motivations for releasing this cringe-making video:
    Polish Ambassador’s “Freedom Apples” Appeal

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    • Replies: @szopen
    Total Polish food export to Russia was just above 1 miliard euros. Polish export to Russia fell by 70% after the sanctions. However, as I wrote above, Polish agriculture product export in 2014 in total was almost 22 miliards euros (22 bilions for you americans), and it ROSE after the sanctions, because Polish companies redirected their products to new markets. Sanctions created temporary turbulences and problems for few companies, but not for agriculture as a whole.
  76. @AP

    The key variable determining whether or not a piece of Ukraine has a collapsed economy was not the presence of the Ukrainian government and its weapons, but rather the presence of anti-government fighters and their weapons.

    Those were the ones defending the industrial facilities, utilities, transportation, and civilians from the fascist invaders who were blowing everything up.
     

    Yet, where there were no Russian fighters "defending industrial facilities, utilities, transportation, and civilians" - such as in Kharkiv - then these things weren't damaged or destroyed.

    The presence of the so-called defenders was the cause of the destruction. Otherwise, areas without such "defenders" would also have been ruined. But they weren't. Kharkiv, Zaporizhia, etc. aren't destroyed. Only areas with "defenders" are.


    The $5 billion she referred to was the total amount spent on all aid from 1991.

    It was all directed towards assuring Ukraine’s “European future” under the likes of Yushenko and Poroshenko.
     

    Some was directed for cleaning up Chernobyl, and other non-political uses.

    So, do you concede that $5 billion wasn't spent on Maidan?


    In 2013 Yanukovich was set to bind Ukraine into the Eurasian Union, linking it to Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan, and cutting it off from its western Polish neighbor. This would also have cemented his non-Ukrainian rule over Ukraine’s natives.

    You mean like handing over control to the EU, the IMF, and the various non-Ukrainian toads in the current government?
     

    Well, as I had pointed out, before the revolution Ukraine was ruled by a non-Ukrainian president, a non-Ukrainian immigrant Prime Minister, and a non-Ukrainian immigrant defense minister. They were replaced by actual Ukrainians, for the most part (a Georgian governor and Lithuanian minister is not nearly as substantial of a foreign element as is the actual presidency and prime minister).

    "Control" by EU and IMF is a choice by the natives. They wanted ties to the EU, and they wanted pro-Western parties in charge. Control by the Eurasian Union was not the choice of the natives.

    Do you feel the difference?


    The protests were against the corruption under Yakunovich.
     
    Given the fact that you had repeated the foolish claim that $5 billion was spent by the USA on the Revolution, your knowledge about the protests, what happened, and why is suspect.

    There were many reasons for the protests, and corruption was an important one. There was also a preference for a European rather Eurasian trajectory, and opposition to Yanukovich's authoritarianism.

    Protesters were mostly native ethnic Ukrainians from the country's west and center.


    Along with the economy across the Ukraine, east and west, continuing its slide into the shitter.
     
    You are wrong as usual. Several Ukrainian oblasts (with about a quarter of Ukraine's population) have experienced economic growth since the revolution. Vynnytsia's economy grew over 7% in 2014, for example.

    …..and their continuing unwavering support for a pro-western than pro-Eurasian course and for political parties that support such a course (even if their choice of particular party changes).

    HAHAHAHAHA! GOOD ONE! Even without all the outlawed parties, the kiss-the-ass-of-the-West faction lost heavily in the regional elections.
     

    Pro-western parties won a landslide in the regional elections. The only difference is that voters have shifted their preference from some pro-western parties to others. The pro-western orientation remains strong.

    You truly are clueless about Ukraine, aren't you. As you can see, various pro-Western parties continued to win in most of the regions during the regional elections:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_local_elections,_2015#/media/File:%D0%92%D0%B8%D0%B1%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B8_%D0%B4%D0%BE_%D0%9E%D0%9C%D0%A1%D0%A3_2015_%D0%9E%D0%B1%D0%BB%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B4%D0%B8.PNG

    The map, while showing some regions as being "blue", actually overrepresents the anti-West vote btw. For example the pro-Russian Opposition Bloc is shown as "winning" Dnipropetrovsk on the map. Well, this party got 38% of the vote there. However Ukrop got 21%, Poroshenko's Party got 12%, Fatherland 7.5%, Lyashko's Radicals 6.7% and Samopomich 6.7%. So in that region the pro-Western parties collectively got over 50%.

    You truly are clueless about Ukraine, aren’t you. As you can see, various pro-Western parties continued to win in most of the regions during the regional elections:

    Many of the results were driven by the lack of availability of candidates to vote for which depressed the turnout in the south and east. This is especially true for voters who are Communists, since the Communist party was banned, but also for Russian and Donbass sympathizers who could not of course express their opinion without facing violence or jail.

    Crowing about winning an election where you ban much of your opposition is not much of an acocmplishment.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AP
    The Communist electoral stronghold was in the Donbas. Banning that party made little difference in most of the country. Voter turnout (47%) wasn't much lower than usual (in the 2010 regional elections it was 50%) so it didn't make much of a difference, either.

    The Opposition Bloc, Our Land, and to a certain extent Revival parties represented the pro-Russian electorate. They won the regional elections in Kharkiv. But overall, they lost in the country in a landslide.

    While openly supporting armed rebellion and anti-government violence can lead to persecution, a pro-Russian orientation alone does not and these parties did campaign and get votes.
  77. @Cochore
    The Polish ambassador to the U.S. must then have other motivations for releasing this cringe-making video:
    Polish Ambassador’s "Freedom Apples" Appeal

    Total Polish food export to Russia was just above 1 miliard euros. Polish export to Russia fell by 70% after the sanctions. However, as I wrote above, Polish agriculture product export in 2014 in total was almost 22 miliards euros (22 bilions for you americans), and it ROSE after the sanctions, because Polish companies redirected their products to new markets. Sanctions created temporary turbulences and problems for few companies, but not for agriculture as a whole.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Poles never learn
    Polish and EU official statistical data are mostly phoney. FAO gives another data. For instance, wheat and rye production in Poland are dropping each year. And while being a member of socialist commonwealth, Poland produced about 25% of all rye in the world! In 2014, Poland exported 19 bn of agricultural products, but imported 13 bn. Yet the ultimate goal of Russians is not to suffocate Poland with agricultural ban, but to detach Poland from decaying West and to make Poles evolve towards Russians, if that is still possible.
  78. On Sunday, Muslim Crimean Tatar singer Susana Jamaldinova , known as Jamala, won the contest to represent Ukraine at the 2016 Eurovision Song Contest in Stockholm, Sweden. She sang song 1944 in the contest written and composed by herself. The song is about the plight of 238,000 Muslim Crimean Tartars expelled from their home in Southern Ukraine by Russian mass-killer Josef Stalin. Nearly 50% of them died during deportation. Today, Crimea is mostly populated by ethnic Russian Christians and Jews.

    On February 22, Vadim Dengin, first deputy chairman of the committee of Duma (Russian parliament) urged the jury of Eurovision to ban Jamaldinova from singing the 1944 song, which highlights deportation of her grandmother along with her four sons and one daughter. It’s not a political parody against Russia. The song opens with lyrics; When strangers are coming. They come to your house, they kill you all and say: ‘We are not guilty, not guilty. Listen the song below.

    https://rehmat1.com/2016/02/23/muslim-singer-represents-ukraine-at-eurovision-2016/

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    • Replies: @Seamus Padraig

    Russian mass-killer Josef Stalin
     
    For the record, Stalin was Georgian, not Russian.
    , @RadicalCenter
    The Russians and Ukrainians would have been wise to eradicate the Tatars -- which is precisely what the Tatars would and will do when they have the numbers -- forget about letting them return.
  79. @Andrew

    You truly are clueless about Ukraine, aren’t you. As you can see, various pro-Western parties continued to win in most of the regions during the regional elections:
     
    Many of the results were driven by the lack of availability of candidates to vote for which depressed the turnout in the south and east. This is especially true for voters who are Communists, since the Communist party was banned, but also for Russian and Donbass sympathizers who could not of course express their opinion without facing violence or jail.

    Crowing about winning an election where you ban much of your opposition is not much of an acocmplishment.

    The Communist electoral stronghold was in the Donbas. Banning that party made little difference in most of the country. Voter turnout (47%) wasn’t much lower than usual (in the 2010 regional elections it was 50%) so it didn’t make much of a difference, either.

    The Opposition Bloc, Our Land, and to a certain extent Revival parties represented the pro-Russian electorate. They won the regional elections in Kharkiv. But overall, they lost in the country in a landslide.

    While openly supporting armed rebellion and anti-government violence can lead to persecution, a pro-Russian orientation alone does not and these parties did campaign and get votes.

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  80. @Andrew

    The political apparatus, like that of all former Soviet provinces, did a good job of tearing the country down.
     
    Most former Soviet provinces seem to be doing pretty well, including Russia, Belarus, the Baltics, Kazakhstan, etc. The basket cases are where the US has intervened or local regimes provoked a civil war - Ukraine, Moldova, Georgia, Azerbaijan.

    Maidan was not a US effort, but a spontaneous uprising of the people themselves.
     
    Maybe of a spontaneous uprising of the people of Galicia and Volhynia. There was no mass uprising in the central, south and east of the country related to Maidan.

    If you would like to see what a real peaceful mass uprising looks like, go look at the film and pictures of the Donbass referendum as it occurred on May 11, 2014.

    The US is a handy booger man to point to, but the US doesn’t have the energy or competence to do half of what it’s blamed for.
     
    So how was Oleg Tsaraev able to give a speech a day before Maidan predicting the US would foment a civil war in Ukraine?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gbVOr6n8Ww

    The Entire country voted overwhelmingly for independence, and that included Crimea and the Donbas.
     
    The entire country except Galicia voted overwhelmingly to remain part of a unified Soviet Union first.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_sovereignty_referendum,_1991

    Crimea and the Donbass voted subsequently in 1994 to gain local sovereignty, close ties to Russia, and secure use of the Russian language.

    http://thekievtimes.ua/society/372400-donbass-zabytyj-referendum-1994.html
    https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Референдум_в_Донецкой_и_Луганской_областях_1994_года

    It was only after the people of Ukraine overthrew Putin’s boy that Putin decided to take Crimea and foment war in the Donbas.
     
    "Putin's boy" was elected by the people of Ukraine in a free election. The overthrow of the elected government (what a democratic and "free" action!) was accomplished only by the people of far west Ukraine.

    Its fair to say Russia has never truly accepted the loss of Crimea and Sevastopol and took them back at the first opportunity.

    Now the criminal regime in Russia has itself in a sticky financial situation and will probably not be able to hold what it has stolen.
     
    In your wildest dreams perhaps. Who is going to dislodge them?

    Ukraine was advancing until the criminal regime in Moscow decided it didn’t like losing its puppet.
     
    Can you define this advancing? Advancing in being looted by the oligarchs?

    Many in Ukraine are working to shed the corrupt government agents it has inherited, but having a war shoved down your throat tends to hold up anything that takes money.
     
    The corrupt government was created by the native Ukrainians in 1991.

    The war was chosen by the new Maidan regime, which decided to send troops from western and central Ukraine into the east of the country to fight anyone who opposed them. It wasn't like the Donbass invaded Kiev. Kiev could have just let Donbass go its own way without bloodshed, just like the Czechs and Slovaks respected each other by separating peacefully instead of one side invading the other.

    Maidan was not a US effort, but a spontaneous uprising of the people themselves.

    Maybe of a spontaneous uprising of the people of Galicia and Volhynia. There was no mass uprising in the central, south and east of the country related to Maidan.

    There was also mass uprising in the country’s center. Kiev is in the center, after all, and while visitors from Lviv were over-represented among Maidan people (about 20% were Galicians) the majority of the protesters were locals and the protests enjoyed mass support locally.

    The Entire country voted overwhelmingly for independence, and that included Crimea and the Donbas.

    The entire country except Galicia voted overwhelmingly to remain part of a unified Soviet Union first.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_sovereignty_referendum,_1991

    You are not presenting this accurately. Only in Galicia was independence an option. It won there. In the rest of the Ukrainian SSR the question was one of sovereignty and this won. But those people weren’t given the option of choosing independence. When, a year later, independence was made an option it was chosen overwhelmingly.

    “Putin’s boy” was elected by the people of Ukraine in a free election. The overthrow of the elected government (what a democratic and “free” action!) was accomplished only by the people of far west Ukraine.

    Correct. He won with less than 50% of the vote in a fair and free election. Unfortunately he then canceled the result of the previous parliamentary election (he flipped the Orange parliament Blue) and changed the election rules so that in the next parliamentary election, even though the Opposition won the popular vote easily, Yanukovich still controlled the parliament. While the next presidential election was still over a year away, Yanukovich had already managed to have a law passed that made one candidate (who was beating him in polls) ineligible to run and his police had raided the offices of another one. These inconvenient facts are forgotten by those who simply state that the elected president was overthrown.

    It was the winners of the popular vote in the previous parliamentary election who took power after Yanukovich was overthrown by the people.

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  81. A sample of presstituting production lashing out against Chechen leader Kadyrov that happened to be against the “moderate” terrorists in the Middle East, as well as against the Islamic fighters employed by Kiev to fight Ukrainian pro-federalists. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/feb/23/chechen-leader-ramzan-kadyrov-threatens-whole-of-russia-opposition-warns
    The author of the hit peace, Mr. Marc Bennetts mentions with reverence one Mr. Kasyanov, a “leader of Russian opposition,” which was caught (on a security camera) while receiving his “stipend” from a NATO official: http://thesaker.is/anti-putin-opposition-leader-kasyanov-caught-in-strasbourg-with-his-pants-down-and-blames-kadyrov/
    Mr. Bennetts really-really wants to see Mr. Putin being accused of murdering Boris Nemtsov; the latter was a political creature of Boris Yeltsin and alleged former leader of Russian opposition: “He was one of many right-wing politicians who came to prominence by overseeing the free-market shock therapy and economic looting of Russia that followed the Stalinist bureaucracy’s dissolution of the USSR … Nemtsov “believes in the salutary role of authoritarian institutions for Russia, be they monarchical or presidential … This view is evident from Nemtsov’s book, in which Yeltsin is depicted as a ‘genuine Russian tsar.” https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2015/03/02/nemt-m02.html https://www.rt.com/op-edge/236515-nemtsov-death-impact-opposition/

    Poor Guardian

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  82. @Andrew

    So you admit that the parts of Ukraine with the collapsed economy are not the patriotic parts but the pro-Russian ones.
     
    The entire Ukraine has a collapsed economy, not just the war destroyed Donbass. The level of economic activity is in a continuous freefall from the destruction of Donbass by the Ukrainian Army, the loss of trade with Russia, the collapse of steel, iron ore, and wheat prices, and the waste of the state treasury on fighting its citizens in the east combined with austerity measures taking money away from the common people.

    The key variable determining whether or not a piece of Ukraine has a collapsed economy was not the presence of the Ukrainian government and its weapons, but rather the presence of anti-government fighters and their weapons.
     
    The key variable is actually whether or not a given area has been attacked with heavy weaponry by the Ukrainian Army, by which I mean aerial bombing campaigns, firing Tochka-U balistic missiles, and the use of multiple launch rocket systems, howitzers and heavy mortars, and especially the use of these weapons against industrial facilities and civil infrastructure. Anti-government fighters and weapons were present in eastern Ukraine from April to July with little effect on production activities, but when the heavy government military campaign against central Donbass began after the fall of Slavyansk, production activities plummeted.

    cutting it off from its western Polish neighbor
     
    Didn't Poland cut itself off from Ukraine first by reorienting its economy away from Ukraine, Belarus, and Russia and towards Germany? So Poland made a conscious choice to leave Ukraine in the dust. Or is the ability to relink up with Poland like in the middle ages and follow her wherever she goes the sine qua non of Ukrainian identity and policy? After all, what is Ukraine without Poland but simply the southern portion of a single indivisible Russian motherland?

    This would also have cemented his non-Ukrainian rule over Ukraine’s natives.
     
    You need to define this word you keep using. Who or what is a "Ukrainian" in you mind, and where did the fall down from out of the sky? The word barely existed before 1914. If you look up US immigration records, you will find no one declaring their nationality to be Ukrainian at Ellis Island prior to 1914. If you look at Churches now termed "Ukrainian" you find that in 1914 they called themselves "Russian", such as the American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Church which was formed by people from Transcarpathia and Lviv. Apparently they were not aware they were Ukrainian when they named their Church. I have a 1913 Encyclopedia Britannica - it is silent on this word.

    Its obvious to me by this word you mean the inhabitants of far west Ukraine in Galicia and Volhynia and perhaps central Ukraine, and that you apparently exclude many or most of the people of southern and eastern Ukraine. If you do exclude them, then why are you so opposed to them forming their own country separate from Ukraine?

    Lastly, do you view Ukrainian identity as being exclusively a blood tie of common descent? How far back does the blood tie need to go "unpolluted" by mixing with people from across some arbitrary line on the ground? Is that why you exclude Yanukovich, who was born inside the current state borders of Ukraine, as not being a Ukrainian native? How "pure" are the western Ukrainians anyway, seeing as they mixed and intermarried freely with Poles, Hungarians, and Germans prior to 1945?

    The entire Ukraine has a collapsed economy, not just the war destroyed Donbass.

    Nonsense. In 2014, five Ukrainian oblasts plus the city of Kiev experienced economic growth:

    http://www.ukrstat.gov.ua/operativ/operativ2008/vvp/vrp/vrp2008_u.htm

    Another six oblasts had modest declines of under 3%. (Russia’s economy declined about 3% in 2015 – would you consider that collapse? I wouldn’t).

    2015 was a little worse, but not much worse, than 2014.

    The key variable is actually whether or not a given area has been attacked with heavy weaponry by the Ukrainian Army,

    But since the Ukrainian army, as is evident, only attacks places where there are Russian fighters but does not attack places such as Kharkiv that are to occupied by Russian fighters, the presence of the Russian fighters determines whether or not a region is attacked or destroyed.

    Just as the people of Syria can thank Turkey, Saudi, etc. for the destruction of much of their country by supplying fighters and arms that draw government attack, so the people of Donbas can thank the Russian Rambos and their suppliers for the destruction of their homes.

    Didn’t Poland cut itself off from Ukraine first by reorienting its economy away from Ukraine, Belarus, and Russia and towards Germany? So Poland made a conscious choice to leave Ukraine in the dust. Or is the ability to relink up with Poland like in the middle ages and follow her wherever she goes the sine qua non of Ukrainian identity and policy?

    More like, Poland returned to its natural place in Europe, as Ukraine is doing now. Poland’s task was easier because it wasn’t burdoned by a large Russian minority: the ethnic Ukrainian parts of Ukraine have consistently had a pro-European wish.

    After all, what is Ukraine without Poland but simply the southern portion of a single indivisible Russian motherland

    Ukraine spent more time as part of Poland/Lithuania than as part of Russia. Without Russian interference it naturally tilts westward.

    This would also have cemented his non-Ukrainian rule over Ukraine’s natives.

    You need to define this word you keep using.

    Someone who self-identifies as a Ukrainian rather than as a member of a national minority.

    The overthrown government has a Russian-Belarusian president and a Russian prime minister who had moved to Ukraine from Russia when he was in his late thirties. Its defense minister was another Russian guy, who moved to Ukraine when he was in his twenties. These were the people ruling over Ukraine. The country’s natives revolted.

    Its obvious to me by this word you mean the inhabitants of far west Ukraine in Galicia and Volhynia and perhaps central Ukraine, and that you apparently exclude many or most of the people of southern and eastern Ukraine.

    A good indicator would be people who consider Ukrainian to be their native language. This is not the same as people who actually speak it in daily life, but those who view it as their own (an Irishman who doesn’t speak Gaelic is not an Englishman). Here’s a map of where in Ukraine people identify the Ukrainian language as theirs:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_language#/media/File:Ukraine_census_2001_Ukrainian.svg

    If you do exclude them, then why are you so opposed to them forming their own country separate from Ukraine?

    I think the current ceasefire would make a good border. Fighting in Donbas was necessary to prevent disturbances in other areas but I would not want these regions to return to Ukraine. Russia doesn’t want them either of course.

    Lastly, do you view Ukrainian identity as being exclusively a blood tie of common descent?

    I think self-identification is enough, no need to count grandparents or hunt for Jewish, Polish, Russian blood.

    Yanukovich’s mother was Russian, and his father was a Belarussian-Polish from Belarus. He was brought up in a mostly-Russian border city. While the line of whether or not someone is a native may in some cases be ambiguous, it is not so in the case of Yanukovich. As is even more true of the overthrown prime minister Azarov, a Russia guy who moved to Ukraine in the 1980s when he was in his late thirties. These were the political leaders drawing Ukraine into a union with Russia-Eurasia, against the wishes of the Ukrainian population and even more so of the ethnic Ukrainians within the Ukraine.

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    • Replies: @Thirdeye

    In 2014, five Ukrainian oblasts plus the city of Kiev experienced economic growth:
     
    Already answered.

    2015 was a little worse, but not much worse, than 2014.
     
    No, a lot worse:

    Ukraine's economy shrank by 6.8% in 2014,[18] and this continued with a 12% decline in GDP in 2015.[19]
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Ukraine

    See that 12% decline for 2015? That's nearly two times worse than for 2014, which saw the Donbas industries drop to essentially zero. That's nearly 3x the decline for Russia in 2015, which was hit with dropping oil prices and sanctions. I already warned you about speculating that 2015 would be "similar" to 2014.


    More like, Poland returned to its natural place in Europe, as Ukraine is doing now.
     
    What's that supposed to mean? Ukraine's place in Europe now is on the doorstep begging. And the EU movers and shakers are getting sick of the government's corrupt, mooching ways. Or do you mean an agricultural colony like the western Ukraine was under Austria-Hungary?

    .....the ethnic Ukrainian parts of Ukraine have consistently had a pro-European wish.
     
    "Ethnic Ukrainian" is such a fluid term as to be meaningless. The hotbed of "Ukrainian" identity is in the areas formerly ruled by Polish and Austrian lords and masters. Now they feel entitled to impose their idea of Ukraine over the left bank of the Dniepr and the Black Sea region. That's a formula for more fracturing.

    Ukraine spent more time as part of Poland/Lithuania than as part of Russia.
     
    Only the western part, over 200 years ago. And the Poles and Ukrainians ended up hating each other so much that the state ceased to function.

    A good indicator [of who is ethnic Ukrainian] would be people who consider Ukrainian to be their native language.
     
    Fact: There was no Ukrainian alphabet until Austrian rule, when the invention of a Ukrainian identity served the purposes of their rulers. "Ukrainian" is a dialect of Russian. There is high mutual intelligibility between the Ukrainian and other Russian dialects. Not enough difference to base nationhood on.

    The country’s natives revolted [against Yakunovich].
     
    Some of them, and the western Ukraine (former Austria-Hungary) was disproportionately represented in the revolt.

    I would not want [the Donbas region] to return to Ukraine.
     
    Return of the Donbas to Ukraine is the premise of the Minsk accords. The Kiev government is too stupid to realize that compliance with Minsk is the best chance to save what's left of their country from themselves.
    , @annamaria
    I apologize to readers for reposting, but since the legitimacy of Kiev government has become tied to the national purity of the governance, here is the same set of relevant Qs for AP:

    AP: “It was a revolt of the natives against the immigrants and their children.”

    What is so purely Ukrainian about the current governor of Odessa, Mr. Saakishvilly who is wanted in his native Georgia on serious chargers? And what is the name of the just-resigned Ukrainian Minister of Economy? – Aivaras Abromavičius. Does a Lithuanian-born Aivaras Abromavičius know Ukrainian language? (By the way, how many peoples’ representatives in the Ukrainian Parliament prefer Ukrainian language over Russian language?)
    Here is also a fraudster Natalie Jaresko, delegated by the State Dept. to serve as Ukraine’s Finance Minister; are you content with the fact that Jaresko holds a dual citizenship? In your opinion, how thoroughbred are both Poroshenko and Yatz? – there are some persistent gossips that these gentlemen are of a mixed Russian-Jewish (or Ukrainian-Jewish, if you wish) descent. Doesn’t it bother you that Kolomojsky (a devout Jewish man with triple-citizenship) joined his efforts with the neo-nazis in a fight against Ukrainian citizens in east Ukraine? How comfortable are you with the various Islamists joining Kiev regime’ against the pro-federalization citizens of Ukraine?
    I apologize for so many questions, but you have touched on important topic.
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/dec/15/ukrainian-minister-throws-water-in-odessa-governors-face http://sputniknews.com/europe/20150801/1025297341.html https://consortiumnews.com/2015/11/10/how-ukraines-finance-chief-got-rich/ http://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-economy-minister-resigns-citing-stalled-reforms-100959978.html
    http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/watching-the-ukrainian-oligarchs http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=a57_1399933948 http://www.opednews.com/articles/Ukraine-The-Unspeakable-H-by-George-Eliason-Death_Girls_Kidnapped_Ukraine-Coup-141002-440.html https://consortiumnews.com/2016/01/29/ukraine-merges-nazis-and-islamists-2/
  83. @szopen
    Total Polish food export to Russia was just above 1 miliard euros. Polish export to Russia fell by 70% after the sanctions. However, as I wrote above, Polish agriculture product export in 2014 in total was almost 22 miliards euros (22 bilions for you americans), and it ROSE after the sanctions, because Polish companies redirected their products to new markets. Sanctions created temporary turbulences and problems for few companies, but not for agriculture as a whole.

    Polish and EU official statistical data are mostly phoney. FAO gives another data. For instance, wheat and rye production in Poland are dropping each year. And while being a member of socialist commonwealth, Poland produced about 25% of all rye in the world! In 2014, Poland exported 19 bn of agricultural products, but imported 13 bn. Yet the ultimate goal of Russians is not to suffocate Poland with agricultural ban, but to detach Poland from decaying West and to make Poles evolve towards Russians, if that is still possible.

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    • Replies: @szopen
    You seem to forget that "agriculture" is not just wheat. Our farmers evolve and when wheat is not profitable, they turn to other products. There is no point in growing wheat, if you can earn more by selling meat, or even growin raspberries. The fact is that Russian sanctions have no effect on Polish agriculture at all, maybe just changing the profile and removing less flexible companies. The fact is that the export is growing.

    Whatever the Russian goal was, the real effect of sanctions was diversification of our customers. Our companies now sell to the markets where just few years ago Polish goods were totally unknown or had only minimal presence. Even the idea that Russia could "suffocate" Poland is ridiculous, as export to Russia was IIRC something like at most 10% of our exports.

    And, the fact that Poland produced a lot of rye in socialist commonwealth does not mean much - because today i can easily buy cheap rye, while in socialist commonwealth it was rationed.

    PS: I do not know what do you mean by "evolve Polish attitudes to Russians". Personally, i very like Russians. I don't trust Putin, though. Also, I don't like attitude of _some_ Russians, who think that whenever Poland is not Russian whipdog, it means its betraying the Slavdom and is in fact plotting against Russia.

  84. @annamaria
    "...non-Ukrainian rule over Ukraine’s natives..."
    This definition is rather fitting for the current government in Kiev.
    You have been carefully omitting the fact that the Ukrainian citizens in east Ukraine have been fighting for federalization - you know, the same arrangement that has been enjoyed by the overseas "beacon of democracy." And it is not honest to overlook the sudden pop-up of the then CIA Director Mr. Brennan n Kiev on the eve of Kiev-initiated military activities against the pro-federalization citizens of Ukraine. Another important fact that does not fit your pseudo-patriotic narrative is the role of neo-Nazis in the "most blatant coup d'etat."
    The anti-curruption protest by people of Ukraine has been appropriated by the US assets (see your current leaders) and this "appropriation" brought nothing good to the ordinary Ukrainians but more corruption (see the current corruption index for Ukraine), deprivation, and sufferings.

    You have been carefully omitting the fact that the Ukrainian citizens in east Ukraine have been fighting for federalization – you know, the same arrangement that has been enjoyed by the overseas “beacon of democracy.”

    The type of “federalization” they sought was veto power over national policies and the ability to have their own trade agreements independent of the central government. This is not the same type of federalization that the US has (i.e., individual states cannot veto foreign actions, or recuse themselves from NAFTA, or join the EU, or whatever). No modern country would tolerate this.

    The Russian strategy of forcing this type of federalization on Ukraine mirrors its approach to towards Poland-Lithuania in the 18th century:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Targowica_Confederation

    In both cases, it promotes/promoted decentralization, pro-Russian oligarchs, and an ineffective central government unable to link to the west and unable to pursue independent policies.

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  85. @Poles never learn
    Polish and EU official statistical data are mostly phoney. FAO gives another data. For instance, wheat and rye production in Poland are dropping each year. And while being a member of socialist commonwealth, Poland produced about 25% of all rye in the world! In 2014, Poland exported 19 bn of agricultural products, but imported 13 bn. Yet the ultimate goal of Russians is not to suffocate Poland with agricultural ban, but to detach Poland from decaying West and to make Poles evolve towards Russians, if that is still possible.

    You seem to forget that “agriculture” is not just wheat. Our farmers evolve and when wheat is not profitable, they turn to other products. There is no point in growing wheat, if you can earn more by selling meat, or even growin raspberries. The fact is that Russian sanctions have no effect on Polish agriculture at all, maybe just changing the profile and removing less flexible companies. The fact is that the export is growing.

    Whatever the Russian goal was, the real effect of sanctions was diversification of our customers. Our companies now sell to the markets where just few years ago Polish goods were totally unknown or had only minimal presence. Even the idea that Russia could “suffocate” Poland is ridiculous, as export to Russia was IIRC something like at most 10% of our exports.

    And, the fact that Poland produced a lot of rye in socialist commonwealth does not mean much – because today i can easily buy cheap rye, while in socialist commonwealth it was rationed.

    PS: I do not know what do you mean by “evolve Polish attitudes to Russians”. Personally, i very like Russians. I don’t trust Putin, though. Also, I don’t like attitude of _some_ Russians, who think that whenever Poland is not Russian whipdog, it means its betraying the Slavdom and is in fact plotting against Russia.

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    • Replies: @Poles never learn

    while in socialist commonwealth it was rationed
     
    A typical phoney cliche. Bread was rationed only in times of war, regardless of political system. Normal states are self-sufficient. States producing only apples and cheap labor are not. Poland has great population, but no relevant production, like it was during interbellum.

    We don't and you should not care about "evolving attitudes". Historically, Poland produced something great only while being part of Russia or under its influence. Modern Polish art and science ceded to exist, everyone considers himself 'European', not Polish. Today, Poland can not just stay Poland, it loses its identity fast, and no one is proud of such heritage. It has either to turn West, and perish together with all decay and perversion. Or to become Russia again, I mean you must wish to evolve to become a Russian with all your heart. You have to surrender your 'Rzes Pospolita' narrative, to be ashame for monsters Pilsudski, Kostiuzko, bloody uprisisngs etc. You have a long way of convergence with Russians ahead, together with genetically close East Germans (germanized and almost spoiled Slavs). Just can't be eternal loser and plumber.

  86. @AP

    The key variable determining whether or not a piece of Ukraine has a collapsed economy was not the presence of the Ukrainian government and its weapons, but rather the presence of anti-government fighters and their weapons.

    Those were the ones defending the industrial facilities, utilities, transportation, and civilians from the fascist invaders who were blowing everything up.
     

    Yet, where there were no Russian fighters "defending industrial facilities, utilities, transportation, and civilians" - such as in Kharkiv - then these things weren't damaged or destroyed.

    The presence of the so-called defenders was the cause of the destruction. Otherwise, areas without such "defenders" would also have been ruined. But they weren't. Kharkiv, Zaporizhia, etc. aren't destroyed. Only areas with "defenders" are.


    The $5 billion she referred to was the total amount spent on all aid from 1991.

    It was all directed towards assuring Ukraine’s “European future” under the likes of Yushenko and Poroshenko.
     

    Some was directed for cleaning up Chernobyl, and other non-political uses.

    So, do you concede that $5 billion wasn't spent on Maidan?


    In 2013 Yanukovich was set to bind Ukraine into the Eurasian Union, linking it to Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan, and cutting it off from its western Polish neighbor. This would also have cemented his non-Ukrainian rule over Ukraine’s natives.

    You mean like handing over control to the EU, the IMF, and the various non-Ukrainian toads in the current government?
     

    Well, as I had pointed out, before the revolution Ukraine was ruled by a non-Ukrainian president, a non-Ukrainian immigrant Prime Minister, and a non-Ukrainian immigrant defense minister. They were replaced by actual Ukrainians, for the most part (a Georgian governor and Lithuanian minister is not nearly as substantial of a foreign element as is the actual presidency and prime minister).

    "Control" by EU and IMF is a choice by the natives. They wanted ties to the EU, and they wanted pro-Western parties in charge. Control by the Eurasian Union was not the choice of the natives.

    Do you feel the difference?


    The protests were against the corruption under Yakunovich.
     
    Given the fact that you had repeated the foolish claim that $5 billion was spent by the USA on the Revolution, your knowledge about the protests, what happened, and why is suspect.

    There were many reasons for the protests, and corruption was an important one. There was also a preference for a European rather Eurasian trajectory, and opposition to Yanukovich's authoritarianism.

    Protesters were mostly native ethnic Ukrainians from the country's west and center.


    Along with the economy across the Ukraine, east and west, continuing its slide into the shitter.
     
    You are wrong as usual. Several Ukrainian oblasts (with about a quarter of Ukraine's population) have experienced economic growth since the revolution. Vynnytsia's economy grew over 7% in 2014, for example.

    …..and their continuing unwavering support for a pro-western than pro-Eurasian course and for political parties that support such a course (even if their choice of particular party changes).

    HAHAHAHAHA! GOOD ONE! Even without all the outlawed parties, the kiss-the-ass-of-the-West faction lost heavily in the regional elections.
     

    Pro-western parties won a landslide in the regional elections. The only difference is that voters have shifted their preference from some pro-western parties to others. The pro-western orientation remains strong.

    You truly are clueless about Ukraine, aren't you. As you can see, various pro-Western parties continued to win in most of the regions during the regional elections:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_local_elections,_2015#/media/File:%D0%92%D0%B8%D0%B1%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B8_%D0%B4%D0%BE_%D0%9E%D0%9C%D0%A1%D0%A3_2015_%D0%9E%D0%B1%D0%BB%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B4%D0%B8.PNG

    The map, while showing some regions as being "blue", actually overrepresents the anti-West vote btw. For example the pro-Russian Opposition Bloc is shown as "winning" Dnipropetrovsk on the map. Well, this party got 38% of the vote there. However Ukrop got 21%, Poroshenko's Party got 12%, Fatherland 7.5%, Lyashko's Radicals 6.7% and Samopomich 6.7%. So in that region the pro-Western parties collectively got over 50%.

    Protesters were mostly native ethnic Ukrainians from the country’s west and center.

    Ahhh! So you now admit that they didn’t represent the entire country, and that Ukraine is a multi-ethnic society.

    It is well known, for example, that voters in the east and in Crimea had gone for Yanukovich by huge margins. Overthrowing him was not only a flagrant violation of Ukraine’s then constitution, but an affront to those who had voted for him. They were told, in effect, that even if they managed to win an election, it wouldn’t matter. They would be defrauded of victory anyway by a bunch of mob-rule protesters acting in cahoots with the US State Department and George Soros.

    If that ever happened in my country, I’d respond exactly as people in Donetstk and Lugansk did. That’s why I feel sympathetic to DNR/LNR.

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    • Replies: @AP

    Ahhh! So you now admit that they didn’t represent the entire country, and that Ukraine is a multi-ethnic society.
     
    I always stated that the Maidan was a revolt of the west and center and not of the entire country. Maidan was supported by about 40% of the people and Yanukovich was supported by only 20%. Maidan had majority support in the west and center (where the capital is).

    Please do not dishonestly imply I stated otherwise.

    Overthrowing him was not only a flagrant violation of Ukraine’s then constitution, but an affront to those who had voted for him.
     
    The problem was that his side rigged the system so that they would keep total control of the country despite, for example, losing the popular vote in the next parliamentary elections. They then engaged in activities that the majority didn't want. It was a recipe for political instability.
  87. @Davidski

    Poland’s ag exports dropped dramatically as a result of Russian counter-sanctions restricting import of food from Poland.
     
    Where are you getting this information?

    Poland hasn't exported much to Russia since the 1990s.

    If you are willing to say the same about Italy, France, Czech Republic, sure.

    http://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/country/pol/#Destinations

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    • Replies: @Davidski
    Point is, Poland is exporting more, including to Italy, France and the Czech Republic, but exporting much less to Russia now, and this trend will continue.

    The other point is that Russian sanctions have had a positive effect on Polish agricultural exports, because our farmers have been forced to find new markets.
  88. @Rehmat
    On Sunday, Muslim Crimean Tatar singer Susana Jamaldinova , known as Jamala, won the contest to represent Ukraine at the 2016 Eurovision Song Contest in Stockholm, Sweden. She sang song 1944 in the contest written and composed by herself. The song is about the plight of 238,000 Muslim Crimean Tartars expelled from their home in Southern Ukraine by Russian mass-killer Josef Stalin. Nearly 50% of them died during deportation. Today, Crimea is mostly populated by ethnic Russian Christians and Jews.

    On February 22, Vadim Dengin, first deputy chairman of the committee of Duma (Russian parliament) urged the jury of Eurovision to ban Jamaldinova from singing the 1944 song, which highlights deportation of her grandmother along with her four sons and one daughter. It’s not a political parody against Russia. The song opens with lyrics; When strangers are coming. They come to your house, they kill you all and say: ‘We are not guilty, not guilty. Listen the song below.

    https://rehmat1.com/2016/02/23/muslim-singer-represents-ukraine-at-eurovision-2016/

    Russian mass-killer Josef Stalin

    For the record, Stalin was Georgian, not Russian.

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  89. @AP

    The entire Ukraine has a collapsed economy, not just the war destroyed Donbass.
     
    Nonsense. In 2014, five Ukrainian oblasts plus the city of Kiev experienced economic growth:

    http://www.ukrstat.gov.ua/operativ/operativ2008/vvp/vrp/vrp2008_u.htm

    Another six oblasts had modest declines of under 3%. (Russia's economy declined about 3% in 2015 - would you consider that collapse? I wouldn't).

    2015 was a little worse, but not much worse, than 2014.

    The key variable is actually whether or not a given area has been attacked with heavy weaponry by the Ukrainian Army,
     
    But since the Ukrainian army, as is evident, only attacks places where there are Russian fighters but does not attack places such as Kharkiv that are to occupied by Russian fighters, the presence of the Russian fighters determines whether or not a region is attacked or destroyed.

    Just as the people of Syria can thank Turkey, Saudi, etc. for the destruction of much of their country by supplying fighters and arms that draw government attack, so the people of Donbas can thank the Russian Rambos and their suppliers for the destruction of their homes.

    Didn’t Poland cut itself off from Ukraine first by reorienting its economy away from Ukraine, Belarus, and Russia and towards Germany? So Poland made a conscious choice to leave Ukraine in the dust. Or is the ability to relink up with Poland like in the middle ages and follow her wherever she goes the sine qua non of Ukrainian identity and policy?
     
    More like, Poland returned to its natural place in Europe, as Ukraine is doing now. Poland's task was easier because it wasn't burdoned by a large Russian minority: the ethnic Ukrainian parts of Ukraine have consistently had a pro-European wish.

    After all, what is Ukraine without Poland but simply the southern portion of a single indivisible Russian motherland
     
    Ukraine spent more time as part of Poland/Lithuania than as part of Russia. Without Russian interference it naturally tilts westward.

    This would also have cemented his non-Ukrainian rule over Ukraine’s natives.

    You need to define this word you keep using.
     
    Someone who self-identifies as a Ukrainian rather than as a member of a national minority.

    The overthrown government has a Russian-Belarusian president and a Russian prime minister who had moved to Ukraine from Russia when he was in his late thirties. Its defense minister was another Russian guy, who moved to Ukraine when he was in his twenties. These were the people ruling over Ukraine. The country's natives revolted.

    Its obvious to me by this word you mean the inhabitants of far west Ukraine in Galicia and Volhynia and perhaps central Ukraine, and that you apparently exclude many or most of the people of southern and eastern Ukraine.
     
    A good indicator would be people who consider Ukrainian to be their native language. This is not the same as people who actually speak it in daily life, but those who view it as their own (an Irishman who doesn't speak Gaelic is not an Englishman). Here's a map of where in Ukraine people identify the Ukrainian language as theirs:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_language#/media/File:Ukraine_census_2001_Ukrainian.svg

    If you do exclude them, then why are you so opposed to them forming their own country separate from Ukraine?
     
    I think the current ceasefire would make a good border. Fighting in Donbas was necessary to prevent disturbances in other areas but I would not want these regions to return to Ukraine. Russia doesn't want them either of course.

    Lastly, do you view Ukrainian identity as being exclusively a blood tie of common descent?
     
    I think self-identification is enough, no need to count grandparents or hunt for Jewish, Polish, Russian blood.

    Yanukovich's mother was Russian, and his father was a Belarussian-Polish from Belarus. He was brought up in a mostly-Russian border city. While the line of whether or not someone is a native may in some cases be ambiguous, it is not so in the case of Yanukovich. As is even more true of the overthrown prime minister Azarov, a Russia guy who moved to Ukraine in the 1980s when he was in his late thirties. These were the political leaders drawing Ukraine into a union with Russia-Eurasia, against the wishes of the Ukrainian population and even more so of the ethnic Ukrainians within the Ukraine.

    In 2014, five Ukrainian oblasts plus the city of Kiev experienced economic growth:

    Already answered.

    2015 was a little worse, but not much worse, than 2014.

    No, a lot worse:

    Ukraine’s economy shrank by 6.8% in 2014,[18] and this continued with a 12% decline in GDP in 2015.[19]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Ukraine

    See that 12% decline for 2015? That’s nearly two times worse than for 2014, which saw the Donbas industries drop to essentially zero. That’s nearly 3x the decline for Russia in 2015, which was hit with dropping oil prices and sanctions. I already warned you about speculating that 2015 would be “similar” to 2014.

    More like, Poland returned to its natural place in Europe, as Ukraine is doing now.

    What’s that supposed to mean? Ukraine’s place in Europe now is on the doorstep begging. And the EU movers and shakers are getting sick of the government’s corrupt, mooching ways. Or do you mean an agricultural colony like the western Ukraine was under Austria-Hungary?

    …..the ethnic Ukrainian parts of Ukraine have consistently had a pro-European wish.

    “Ethnic Ukrainian” is such a fluid term as to be meaningless. The hotbed of “Ukrainian” identity is in the areas formerly ruled by Polish and Austrian lords and masters. Now they feel entitled to impose their idea of Ukraine over the left bank of the Dniepr and the Black Sea region. That’s a formula for more fracturing.

    Ukraine spent more time as part of Poland/Lithuania than as part of Russia.

    Only the western part, over 200 years ago. And the Poles and Ukrainians ended up hating each other so much that the state ceased to function.

    A good indicator [of who is ethnic Ukrainian] would be people who consider Ukrainian to be their native language.

    Fact: There was no Ukrainian alphabet until Austrian rule, when the invention of a Ukrainian identity served the purposes of their rulers. “Ukrainian” is a dialect of Russian. There is high mutual intelligibility between the Ukrainian and other Russian dialects. Not enough difference to base nationhood on.

    The country’s natives revolted [against Yakunovich].

    Some of them, and the western Ukraine (former Austria-Hungary) was disproportionately represented in the revolt.

    I would not want [the Donbas region] to return to Ukraine.

    Return of the Donbas to Ukraine is the premise of the Minsk accords. The Kiev government is too stupid to realize that compliance with Minsk is the best chance to save what’s left of their country from themselves.

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    • Replies: @AP

    No, a lot worse:

    Ukraine’s economy shrank by 6.8% in 2014,[18] and this continued with a 12% decline in GDP in 2015.[19]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Ukraine
     

    Wikipedia numbers actually vary depending on source:

    "Due to the War in Donbass[nb 1] Ukraine's economy shrank by 6.8% in 2014;[16] it had been expected to decline by 8%.[18] The early 2014 annexation of Crimea by Russia also contributed to this shrank.[16] A Ukrainian Government report stated early February 2016 that Ukraine's economy had shrank by 10.4% in 2015.[44] For 2015 a further decline of 11.6% had been expected by the National Bank of Ukraine and a 12% shrank according to the World Bank.[19]The World Bank forecasts a growth of 1% in 2016."

    Unless you have data by oblast for 2015, you can't speculate whether every oblast did worse in 2015. We do know, however, that 5 oblasts had growing economies in 2014.


    More like, Poland returned to its natural place in Europe, as Ukraine is doing now.

    What’s that supposed to mean?
     

    Europeans prefer to be linked to Europe rather than to Eurasia, or Africa, or other non-European place. Is that difficult to understand?

    Ukraine spent more time as part of Poland/Lithuania than as part of Russia.

    Only the western part, over 200 years ago. And the Poles and Ukrainians ended up hating each other so much that the state ceased to function.
     

    Different parts of Ukraine was absorbed by Russia at different times. The Left Bank (east of the Dnipro River) became an autonomous part of Russia in c. 1650, after 300 years as part of Lithuania or Poland. It wasn't fully absorbed by Russia until the late 18th century. As such, Polish and Latin remained the language of the local elite for another century at least. The Orthodox Kiev Academy taught in those languages, for example.

    The Right Bank joined Russia about 150 years later. So it spent about 450 years as part of Lithuania or Poland, 120 as Russia and then 70 as the USSR.

    Galicia was part of Poland or Austria for over 600 years and part of the USSR for 50 years. Other than a few months in 1915, it was never part of Russia.

    Southern Ukraine was settled mostly by people moving south from the Right Bank. That is, by people whose culture developed under Poland centuries longer than under Russia. But they mixed there with Russian settlers, so the region is not as unambiguously Ukrainian as the ethnic Ukrainian heartland to its north.


    A good indicator [of who is ethnic Ukrainian] would be people who consider Ukrainian to be their native language.

    Fact: There was no Ukrainian alphabet until Austrian rule, when the invention of a Ukrainian identity served the purposes of their rulers. Ukrainian” is a dialect of Russian. There is high mutual intelligibility between the Ukrainian and other Russian dialects.
     

    Fact: the Ukrainian language has more words in common with Polish than it does with Russian. This is due to the extensive centuries-long Polish influence on Ukraine, whose impact is comparable to that of the Norman French rulers on the English language. This makes the relationship between the Ukrainian and Russian languages different from that of, say, Bavarian and High German (or even Dutch and German, or Swedish and Danish). Here is a map of lexical differences among European languages:

    https://elms.wordpress.com/2008/03/04/lexical-distance-among-languages-of-europe/

    German and Dutch, Czech and Slovak, Swedish and Danish, and Portuguese and Spanish are closer than Russian and Ukrainian.

    In your world is there no Dutch language - it is a German dialect? No Portuguese? No Slovak?

    As in your claim of 5 billion spent to overthrow Yanukovich, it appears we are in the world of Russian fantasies.


    The country’s natives revolted [against Yakunovich].

    Some of them, and the western Ukraine (former Austria-Hungary) was disproportionately represented in the revolt
     

    The country's west and center revolted. These are the most ethnic Ukrainian regions. While the Galicians were indeed over-represented they were not the majority of those in revolt in Kiev, in the country's center, where the government fell.
  90. @AP

    The entire Ukraine has a collapsed economy, not just the war destroyed Donbass.
     
    Nonsense. In 2014, five Ukrainian oblasts plus the city of Kiev experienced economic growth:

    http://www.ukrstat.gov.ua/operativ/operativ2008/vvp/vrp/vrp2008_u.htm

    Another six oblasts had modest declines of under 3%. (Russia's economy declined about 3% in 2015 - would you consider that collapse? I wouldn't).

    2015 was a little worse, but not much worse, than 2014.

    The key variable is actually whether or not a given area has been attacked with heavy weaponry by the Ukrainian Army,
     
    But since the Ukrainian army, as is evident, only attacks places where there are Russian fighters but does not attack places such as Kharkiv that are to occupied by Russian fighters, the presence of the Russian fighters determines whether or not a region is attacked or destroyed.

    Just as the people of Syria can thank Turkey, Saudi, etc. for the destruction of much of their country by supplying fighters and arms that draw government attack, so the people of Donbas can thank the Russian Rambos and their suppliers for the destruction of their homes.

    Didn’t Poland cut itself off from Ukraine first by reorienting its economy away from Ukraine, Belarus, and Russia and towards Germany? So Poland made a conscious choice to leave Ukraine in the dust. Or is the ability to relink up with Poland like in the middle ages and follow her wherever she goes the sine qua non of Ukrainian identity and policy?
     
    More like, Poland returned to its natural place in Europe, as Ukraine is doing now. Poland's task was easier because it wasn't burdoned by a large Russian minority: the ethnic Ukrainian parts of Ukraine have consistently had a pro-European wish.

    After all, what is Ukraine without Poland but simply the southern portion of a single indivisible Russian motherland
     
    Ukraine spent more time as part of Poland/Lithuania than as part of Russia. Without Russian interference it naturally tilts westward.

    This would also have cemented his non-Ukrainian rule over Ukraine’s natives.

    You need to define this word you keep using.
     
    Someone who self-identifies as a Ukrainian rather than as a member of a national minority.

    The overthrown government has a Russian-Belarusian president and a Russian prime minister who had moved to Ukraine from Russia when he was in his late thirties. Its defense minister was another Russian guy, who moved to Ukraine when he was in his twenties. These were the people ruling over Ukraine. The country's natives revolted.

    Its obvious to me by this word you mean the inhabitants of far west Ukraine in Galicia and Volhynia and perhaps central Ukraine, and that you apparently exclude many or most of the people of southern and eastern Ukraine.
     
    A good indicator would be people who consider Ukrainian to be their native language. This is not the same as people who actually speak it in daily life, but those who view it as their own (an Irishman who doesn't speak Gaelic is not an Englishman). Here's a map of where in Ukraine people identify the Ukrainian language as theirs:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_language#/media/File:Ukraine_census_2001_Ukrainian.svg

    If you do exclude them, then why are you so opposed to them forming their own country separate from Ukraine?
     
    I think the current ceasefire would make a good border. Fighting in Donbas was necessary to prevent disturbances in other areas but I would not want these regions to return to Ukraine. Russia doesn't want them either of course.

    Lastly, do you view Ukrainian identity as being exclusively a blood tie of common descent?
     
    I think self-identification is enough, no need to count grandparents or hunt for Jewish, Polish, Russian blood.

    Yanukovich's mother was Russian, and his father was a Belarussian-Polish from Belarus. He was brought up in a mostly-Russian border city. While the line of whether or not someone is a native may in some cases be ambiguous, it is not so in the case of Yanukovich. As is even more true of the overthrown prime minister Azarov, a Russia guy who moved to Ukraine in the 1980s when he was in his late thirties. These were the political leaders drawing Ukraine into a union with Russia-Eurasia, against the wishes of the Ukrainian population and even more so of the ethnic Ukrainians within the Ukraine.

    I apologize to readers for reposting, but since the legitimacy of Kiev government has become tied to the national purity of the governance, here is the same set of relevant Qs for AP:

    AP: “It was a revolt of the natives against the immigrants and their children.”

    What is so purely Ukrainian about the current governor of Odessa, Mr. Saakishvilly who is wanted in his native Georgia on serious chargers? And what is the name of the just-resigned Ukrainian Minister of Economy? – Aivaras Abromavičius. Does a Lithuanian-born Aivaras Abromavičius know Ukrainian language? (By the way, how many peoples’ representatives in the Ukrainian Parliament prefer Ukrainian language over Russian language?)
    Here is also a fraudster Natalie Jaresko, delegated by the State Dept. to serve as Ukraine’s Finance Minister; are you content with the fact that Jaresko holds a dual citizenship? In your opinion, how thoroughbred are both Poroshenko and Yatz? – there are some persistent gossips that these gentlemen are of a mixed Russian-Jewish (or Ukrainian-Jewish, if you wish) descent. Doesn’t it bother you that Kolomojsky (a devout Jewish man with triple-citizenship) joined his efforts with the neo-nazis in a fight against Ukrainian citizens in east Ukraine? How comfortable are you with the various Islamists joining Kiev regime’ against the pro-federalization citizens of Ukraine?
    I apologize for so many questions, but you have touched on important topic.
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/dec/15/ukrainian-minister-throws-water-in-odessa-governors-face http://sputniknews.com/europe/20150801/1025297341.html https://consortiumnews.com/2015/11/10/how-ukraines-finance-chief-got-rich/ http://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-economy-minister-resigns-citing-stalled-reforms-100959978.html
    http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/watching-the-ukrainian-oligarchs http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=a57_1399933948 http://www.opednews.com/articles/Ukraine-The-Unspeakable-H-by-George-Eliason-Death_Girls_Kidnapped_Ukraine-Coup-141002-440.html https://consortiumnews.com/2016/01/29/ukraine-merges-nazis-and-islamists-2/

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  91. @szopen
    You seem to forget that "agriculture" is not just wheat. Our farmers evolve and when wheat is not profitable, they turn to other products. There is no point in growing wheat, if you can earn more by selling meat, or even growin raspberries. The fact is that Russian sanctions have no effect on Polish agriculture at all, maybe just changing the profile and removing less flexible companies. The fact is that the export is growing.

    Whatever the Russian goal was, the real effect of sanctions was diversification of our customers. Our companies now sell to the markets where just few years ago Polish goods were totally unknown or had only minimal presence. Even the idea that Russia could "suffocate" Poland is ridiculous, as export to Russia was IIRC something like at most 10% of our exports.

    And, the fact that Poland produced a lot of rye in socialist commonwealth does not mean much - because today i can easily buy cheap rye, while in socialist commonwealth it was rationed.

    PS: I do not know what do you mean by "evolve Polish attitudes to Russians". Personally, i very like Russians. I don't trust Putin, though. Also, I don't like attitude of _some_ Russians, who think that whenever Poland is not Russian whipdog, it means its betraying the Slavdom and is in fact plotting against Russia.

    while in socialist commonwealth it was rationed

    A typical phoney cliche. Bread was rationed only in times of war, regardless of political system. Normal states are self-sufficient. States producing only apples and cheap labor are not. Poland has great population, but no relevant production, like it was during interbellum.

    We don’t and you should not care about “evolving attitudes”. Historically, Poland produced something great only while being part of Russia or under its influence. Modern Polish art and science ceded to exist, everyone considers himself ‘European’, not Polish. Today, Poland can not just stay Poland, it loses its identity fast, and no one is proud of such heritage. It has either to turn West, and perish together with all decay and perversion. Or to become Russia again, I mean you must wish to evolve to become a Russian with all your heart. You have to surrender your ‘Rzes Pospolita’ narrative, to be ashame for monsters Pilsudski, Kostiuzko, bloody uprisisngs etc. You have a long way of convergence with Russians ahead, together with genetically close East Germans (germanized and almost spoiled Slavs). Just can’t be eternal loser and plumber.

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    • Replies: @Cicero
    Woah, woah, woah. I'm a critic of Russophobia as strong as you'll find anywhere, but this comment is over the line.

    Poland has plenty of accomplishments under its belt from before and after the period of Partition (which was as much the fault of Prussia and Austria as it was Russia, through the latter gets most of flak for it). To claim that they have to be under the thumb of the Russians to achieve anything is absurd chest beating chauvinism at its worst. In fact, I argue that the resources the Russian Empire wasted on keeping central Poland in its domains did much to undermine the monarchy, and should have been avoided. While it is not a one-to-one comparison, Poland is the Ireland to Russia's England; no matter how similar the two nations are on the surface to outsiders, and no matter how much the latter would love to control the former, they are far too different in culture and religion to exist under direct political union. Herzen warned against the arrogant belief that Russia must dominate Poland over one hundred and fifty years ago, and it needs to be restated during this troubled era we live in.

    As for Poland's current demographics woes, it is linked to the same anomie that most European/Western nations are shackled with. If Russia dropped off the face of the Earth tomorrow, you would still have young Poles deserting their ancestral homeland to work menial jobs in the richer nations of the EU. They are doing this despite the standard of living in Poland being higher than it has ever been. That is an issue related to globalization and post-nationalist ideology that is undermining civilization as we know it. I will not claim to know how to even begin fixing it.

    To comment on Linh's essay, I think it was quite fair and gives a good depiction of what is happening in Ukraine today. He might have his political bias (as do we all), but Linh Dinh does not strike me as someone doing a hit piece on Kiev's dysfunction to serve Moscow's agenda. The issues that confront the average Ukrainian are not unlike those that his Russian cousin suffered in the late 1990's, but my guess is that there is no Putin-like figure waiting in the wings to restore order in the years ahead. The country is in serious danger of being reduced to a shattered husk that cannot function even if Washington continues to prop up the government, like many Central American nations experienced in the 80's and 90's or Libya today.

    A lot of this comes down to Ukrainian identity being forged from incompatible parts and populations of differing histories and culture. Roman Dmowski, who stood along with Pilsudski as one of the fathers of the modern Polish state wrote extensively on this from the end of WWI up until his death in 1939.

    "There is no human force capable of preventing Ukraine, once it is torn away from Russia and transformed into an independent country, from becoming a destination for con-men from all over the world who are unwelcome in their own countries, capitalists, capital-seekers, business organizers, technicians and merchants, speculators and schemers, thugs and pimps: Germans, French, Belgians, Italians and Americans would find assistance by local or nearby Russians, Poles, Armenians, Greeks, and the most numerous and important of all, the Jews. It would be a veritable League of Nations of sorts. This elemental force, with the participation of the cleverest and most business-savvy Ukrainians, will become the country's leadership elite. It would be a most remarkable elite, since no other country could boast such a rich collection of international low-life.
    Ukraine would become an abscess on Europe's body; and people who dream of establishing a cultured, healthy, and powerful Ukrainian nation that could mature in its own state would quickly realize that, instead of a state of their own they have gotten an international corporation and instead of healthy development only rapidly progressing rot and decay.

    Those who believe that, given Ukraine's geographic location, its size, and the state of the Ukrainian element, its spiritual and material resources, and the role the Ukrainian question plays in the global economy and politics, it could be otherwise has no imagination whatsoever.

    The Ukrainian question has various promoters, both in Ukraine and abroad. There are many among the latter who know perfectly well what they are aiming at. But they are also those who view the question of tearing Ukraine away from Russia in a most optimistic manner. Those naive ones would be best served by keeping their hands off Ukraine."
     
    Roman Dmowski,
    Post-War World and Poland (1931)


    More here: http://www.theimaginativeconservative.org/2014/07/ukraine-question-1930-part.html
    , @szopen
    Listen, I LIVED during communist times. I agree that in normal state and in normal economy food should be rationed only during war. And yet, in communist Poland, in peacetime, it was rationed.

    The rest of your post is just a useless rant, and typical for nationalist losers who are the reasons why even Poles sympathetic to Russia choose to stay with west. We are not and we will not become Russians. Our heritage and tradition is thousand years long. You reveal astounding ignorancy, it seems that you take your fantasies for a reality. We have GDP per capita higher than Russia, despite having no such great mineral resources as you do.

    I used to say to my Russian friends: come with heart, I will invite you to my house - come with tanks, I will meet you with anti-tank gun. To you, I can only say never ever talk to me again. You are epitomy of the worst kind of Russian nationalist. I would prefer rather to die than to be a monster like you.

  92. @Seamus Padraig

    Protesters were mostly native ethnic Ukrainians from the country’s west and center.
     
    Ahhh! So you now admit that they didn't represent the entire country, and that Ukraine is a multi-ethnic society.

    It is well known, for example, that voters in the east and in Crimea had gone for Yanukovich by huge margins. Overthrowing him was not only a flagrant violation of Ukraine's then constitution, but an affront to those who had voted for him. They were told, in effect, that even if they managed to win an election, it wouldn't matter. They would be defrauded of victory anyway by a bunch of mob-rule protesters acting in cahoots with the US State Department and George Soros.

    If that ever happened in my country, I'd respond exactly as people in Donetstk and Lugansk did. That's why I feel sympathetic to DNR/LNR.

    Ahhh! So you now admit that they didn’t represent the entire country, and that Ukraine is a multi-ethnic society.

    I always stated that the Maidan was a revolt of the west and center and not of the entire country. Maidan was supported by about 40% of the people and Yanukovich was supported by only 20%. Maidan had majority support in the west and center (where the capital is).

    Please do not dishonestly imply I stated otherwise.

    Overthrowing him was not only a flagrant violation of Ukraine’s then constitution, but an affront to those who had voted for him.

    The problem was that his side rigged the system so that they would keep total control of the country despite, for example, losing the popular vote in the next parliamentary elections. They then engaged in activities that the majority didn’t want. It was a recipe for political instability.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Thirdeye

    I always stated that the Maidan was a revolt of the west and center and not of the entire country.
     
    No you didn't. You said such things as:

    The country’s natives revolted [against Yakunovich].
     
    Note the lack of regional qualifiers. You're just trying to save face over your backpedaling.

    The problem was that his side rigged the system so that they would keep total control of the country....
     
    That sounds a lot like the moves of the coup government, banning and persecuting opposition parties and replacing regional governors with their toadies.
  93. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @anon
    "...they just arrived and took all the land"..

    And there was a great deal to take sport. The landmass that whites would create as Canada was almost 4,000, 000 square miles in size and was "occupied" at most by perhaps 300,000 Aboriginals. In other words 99% of the land was open and empty, quite unlike today with modern roads, railways, bridges, airports, cities, none of which ever existed previously.

    "..history coming around full circle."

    Not at all. The few Indians are not "taking back" the land (most of which they never occupied,) but new arrivals are muscling in on territory they have no claim too.

    Note how you make no effort to justify colored immigration as a "good" in itself but as some kind of "penance" or "suffering" whites are supposed to endure. I see no reason to want any of it.

    Lol. Your arguments were completely ineffective here.

    1) Canada today is still mainly empty land that is open and undeveloped. Trying to pick a stage of development or level of population where it is all of a sudden ok to take land is a stupid argument.

    2) White people had no claim to Canada to begin with and it didn’t stop them from taking over the native population. So why should others now show respect to white claims of territory especially since whites are often times bombing the very countries people are fleeing from.

    Besides, a significant number of those immigrating back back to Canada Canada and America have Indian blood in them so their claim to the land is as is good as anyone elses.

    Also, quit feeling sorry for yourself just because your white. Colored immigrants are not a punishment the world is trying to force on white lands, colored immigration is what white people are reaping after not paying much mind to your liberal masters.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous bro
    You sure are making it sound like a punishment.

    Also there was no such thing as Canada before white people. The only rights we have are those we can secure with violence. If you can't secure your land, you don't deserve it
    , @anon
    Since the land now is still mainly empty and was 100 times more so 400 years past, it can hardly be considered occupied. Since it wasn't occupied it can not be considered "stolen". You can't have something stolen from you that you never owned and 300,000 people could never effectively, spatially occupy 4,000,000 square miles of land.

    White people created an effective claim to Canada by settling it and developing it over the course of 400 years. Its ours a million times more then it is that of colored immigrants.

    Immigration is only a privilege, not a right. So ANY immigrant to Canada should show respect for being here. Personally I would stop ALL immigration if I could.

    I agree liberal masters are at the heart of the betrayal. Other then that I guess we agree to disagree. I'm assuming YOU are a colored person, or possibly a self-hating white, anyways...

    You also say colored immigration is not a "punishment" but then you say it is what white people are "reaping". That's another contradiction right there.
  94. In Odessa they call Mikhail Saakashvili, “Miskha pod kidosh” or “Misha under the porch awning.” In other words, “Misha the foundling” the unwanted baby left on the doorstep.

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  95. @AP

    Ahhh! So you now admit that they didn’t represent the entire country, and that Ukraine is a multi-ethnic society.
     
    I always stated that the Maidan was a revolt of the west and center and not of the entire country. Maidan was supported by about 40% of the people and Yanukovich was supported by only 20%. Maidan had majority support in the west and center (where the capital is).

    Please do not dishonestly imply I stated otherwise.

    Overthrowing him was not only a flagrant violation of Ukraine’s then constitution, but an affront to those who had voted for him.
     
    The problem was that his side rigged the system so that they would keep total control of the country despite, for example, losing the popular vote in the next parliamentary elections. They then engaged in activities that the majority didn't want. It was a recipe for political instability.

    I always stated that the Maidan was a revolt of the west and center and not of the entire country.

    No you didn’t. You said such things as:

    The country’s natives revolted [against Yakunovich].

    Note the lack of regional qualifiers. You’re just trying to save face over your backpedaling.

    The problem was that his side rigged the system so that they would keep total control of the country….

    That sounds a lot like the moves of the coup government, banning and persecuting opposition parties and replacing regional governors with their toadies.

    Read More
  96. @Wizard of Oz
    I am disappointed to find the readable , observant and apparently empathetic Linh Dinh writing dogmatically as if he knows anything about the origins of the Maidan affair and the geo-politics affecting Ukraine. Why should we regard you as any kind of authority on Ukraine or the policies or actions of Russia or the US in relation to it?

    And while I am posing questions....Is there anyone who can argue convincingly that there is overwhelmingly strong neo-con anti-Russian influence on the Obama administration in relation to Ukraine or generally even though a plausible case may be made for a few billionaires money having been deployed very successfully by that minority of American Jews who are or support Israel Firsters?

    Appended is a link from August 14, 2014 on the declining state of the Ukraine economy by an economist and businessman who has traveled often to Ukraine. I am sure I have given you this link before:

    https://www.sovereignman.com/podcast/podcast-014-dulce-et-decorum-est-pro-patria-mori-14818/

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  97. @Anonymous
    Lol. Your arguments were completely ineffective here.

    1) Canada today is still mainly empty land that is open and undeveloped. Trying to pick a stage of development or level of population where it is all of a sudden ok to take land is a stupid argument.

    2) White people had no claim to Canada to begin with and it didn't stop them from taking over the native population. So why should others now show respect to white claims of territory especially since whites are often times bombing the very countries people are fleeing from.

    Besides, a significant number of those immigrating back back to Canada Canada and America have Indian blood in them so their claim to the land is as is good as anyone elses.

    Also, quit feeling sorry for yourself just because your white. Colored immigrants are not a punishment the world is trying to force on white lands, colored immigration is what white people are reaping after not paying much mind to your liberal masters.

    You sure are making it sound like a punishment.

    Also there was no such thing as Canada before white people. The only rights we have are those we can secure with violence. If you can’t secure your land, you don’t deserve it

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    You sure are ducking the source of colored immigration. And guess what it's not the world trying to punish white people silly. That's why only western white nations are being flooded with colored immigrants.

    Russia has gotten hold of its 1% and thrown them in jail or killed them. So they are a white country that doesn't have to worry about being flooded with the third world like Germany does.

    Keep feeling sorry for yourself though, see how far that gets you.


    Also, don't be rediculous. White people didn't invent Canada out of thin air. They stole an existing land being occupied by others, killed them off, and renamed the land Canada.

    Lol. Finally we agree. White people in the west, note not whites in Russia, are not securing the land and they don't deserve anything.

  98. I always stated that the Maidan was a revolt of the west and center and not of the entire country.

    No you didn’t. You said such things as:

    The country’s natives revolted [against Yakunovich].

    Note the lack of regional qualifiers. You’re just trying to save face over your backpedaling.

    You paste selectively. I also stated, in response to : “Maybe of a spontaneous uprising of the people of Galicia and Volhynia. There was no mass uprising in the central, south and east of the country related to Maidan.”

    There was also mass uprising in the country’s center. Kiev is in the center, after all, and while visitors from Lviv were over-represented among Maidan people (about 20% were Galicians) the majority of the protesters were locals and the protests enjoyed mass support locally.

    Note the mass uprising is limited to the center and west.

    A post from last year:

    http://www.unz.com/akarlin/ukrainian-heroine/#comment-943654

    A majority of western and central Ukrainians and plurality of Ukrainians supported Maidan.

    I never stated there were anti-Yanukovich mass uprisings in the East and I consistently located the mass uprisings in the center and west. To imply that I stated otherwise is dishonesty.

    The problem was that his side rigged the system so that they would keep total control of the country….

    That sounds a lot like the moves of the coup government, banning and persecuting opposition parties and replacing regional governors with their toadies.

    The current system hasn’t resulted in the winner of the popular vote failing to take control of the parliament, so the two systems are not the same at all. In the past, Opposition to Yanukovich won the popular vote easily, yet were shut out of power. In the current system, the pro-Russian parties lost the popular vote easily, and have no power.

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  99. @Historian
    Ukraine reminds me of how Ireland used to be between.

    They're fighting over a region that doesn't actually want to be part of their country. For Ukraine, it's Crimea and eastern Ukraine. For Ireland, it was Northern Ireland.

    They're in demographic stagnation. Ukraine's population today is the same as it was in 1965. Ireland's population peaked in the 1830s and never recovered.

    They're suffering emigration. Ukrainian women are selling themselves to American men. Irish men and women emigrated to America by the millions.

    The Irish eventually broke the cycle of poverty. They stopped hating the British. They focused on building their own country instead of fighting someone else. They even rewrote their Constitution to give up their claim to Northern Ireland.

    Ukraine needs to do the same. That shopkeeper needs to stop sending 25% of turnover to the government fighters to blow up what's left of eastern Ukraine. Instead, invest it into something productive, something that will actually help build up Ukraine.

    Don’t worry, “that shopkeeper” is not sending 25% of revenue to nobody. That is surely a marketing gimmick and a lie.

    Read More
  100. anon says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @Anonymous
    Lol. Your arguments were completely ineffective here.

    1) Canada today is still mainly empty land that is open and undeveloped. Trying to pick a stage of development or level of population where it is all of a sudden ok to take land is a stupid argument.

    2) White people had no claim to Canada to begin with and it didn't stop them from taking over the native population. So why should others now show respect to white claims of territory especially since whites are often times bombing the very countries people are fleeing from.

    Besides, a significant number of those immigrating back back to Canada Canada and America have Indian blood in them so their claim to the land is as is good as anyone elses.

    Also, quit feeling sorry for yourself just because your white. Colored immigrants are not a punishment the world is trying to force on white lands, colored immigration is what white people are reaping after not paying much mind to your liberal masters.

    Since the land now is still mainly empty and was 100 times more so 400 years past, it can hardly be considered occupied. Since it wasn’t occupied it can not be considered “stolen”. You can’t have something stolen from you that you never owned and 300,000 people could never effectively, spatially occupy 4,000,000 square miles of land.

    White people created an effective claim to Canada by settling it and developing it over the course of 400 years. Its ours a million times more then it is that of colored immigrants.

    Immigration is only a privilege, not a right. So ANY immigrant to Canada should show respect for being here. Personally I would stop ALL immigration if I could.

    I agree liberal masters are at the heart of the betrayal. Other then that I guess we agree to disagree. I’m assuming YOU are a colored person, or possibly a self-hating white, anyways…

    You also say colored immigration is not a “punishment” but then you say it is what white people are “reaping”. That’s another contradiction right there.

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  101. Very nice account of Ukrainian reality. Since the author spent bulk of his time in the most prosperous part of the country, the situation must be even more dire everywhere else. Of course, the sheer lunacy and delusion of Ukrainian elites (like US-trained-and-paid Mr. Potekhin) pretty much ensures that the country’s path downward is far from over.

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  102. @Thirdeye

    In 2014, five Ukrainian oblasts plus the city of Kiev experienced economic growth:
     
    Already answered.

    2015 was a little worse, but not much worse, than 2014.
     
    No, a lot worse:

    Ukraine's economy shrank by 6.8% in 2014,[18] and this continued with a 12% decline in GDP in 2015.[19]
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Ukraine

    See that 12% decline for 2015? That's nearly two times worse than for 2014, which saw the Donbas industries drop to essentially zero. That's nearly 3x the decline for Russia in 2015, which was hit with dropping oil prices and sanctions. I already warned you about speculating that 2015 would be "similar" to 2014.


    More like, Poland returned to its natural place in Europe, as Ukraine is doing now.
     
    What's that supposed to mean? Ukraine's place in Europe now is on the doorstep begging. And the EU movers and shakers are getting sick of the government's corrupt, mooching ways. Or do you mean an agricultural colony like the western Ukraine was under Austria-Hungary?

    .....the ethnic Ukrainian parts of Ukraine have consistently had a pro-European wish.
     
    "Ethnic Ukrainian" is such a fluid term as to be meaningless. The hotbed of "Ukrainian" identity is in the areas formerly ruled by Polish and Austrian lords and masters. Now they feel entitled to impose their idea of Ukraine over the left bank of the Dniepr and the Black Sea region. That's a formula for more fracturing.

    Ukraine spent more time as part of Poland/Lithuania than as part of Russia.
     
    Only the western part, over 200 years ago. And the Poles and Ukrainians ended up hating each other so much that the state ceased to function.

    A good indicator [of who is ethnic Ukrainian] would be people who consider Ukrainian to be their native language.
     
    Fact: There was no Ukrainian alphabet until Austrian rule, when the invention of a Ukrainian identity served the purposes of their rulers. "Ukrainian" is a dialect of Russian. There is high mutual intelligibility between the Ukrainian and other Russian dialects. Not enough difference to base nationhood on.

    The country’s natives revolted [against Yakunovich].
     
    Some of them, and the western Ukraine (former Austria-Hungary) was disproportionately represented in the revolt.

    I would not want [the Donbas region] to return to Ukraine.
     
    Return of the Donbas to Ukraine is the premise of the Minsk accords. The Kiev government is too stupid to realize that compliance with Minsk is the best chance to save what's left of their country from themselves.

    No, a lot worse:

    Ukraine’s economy shrank by 6.8% in 2014,[18] and this continued with a 12% decline in GDP in 2015.[19]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Ukraine

    Wikipedia numbers actually vary depending on source:

    “Due to the War in Donbass[nb 1] Ukraine’s economy shrank by 6.8% in 2014;[16] it had been expected to decline by 8%.[18] The early 2014 annexation of Crimea by Russia also contributed to this shrank.[16] A Ukrainian Government report stated early February 2016 that Ukraine’s economy had shrank by 10.4% in 2015.[44] For 2015 a further decline of 11.6% had been expected by the National Bank of Ukraine and a 12% shrank according to the World Bank.[19]The World Bank forecasts a growth of 1% in 2016.”

    Unless you have data by oblast for 2015, you can’t speculate whether every oblast did worse in 2015. We do know, however, that 5 oblasts had growing economies in 2014.

    More like, Poland returned to its natural place in Europe, as Ukraine is doing now.

    What’s that supposed to mean?

    Europeans prefer to be linked to Europe rather than to Eurasia, or Africa, or other non-European place. Is that difficult to understand?

    Ukraine spent more time as part of Poland/Lithuania than as part of Russia.

    Only the western part, over 200 years ago. And the Poles and Ukrainians ended up hating each other so much that the state ceased to function.

    Different parts of Ukraine was absorbed by Russia at different times. The Left Bank (east of the Dnipro River) became an autonomous part of Russia in c. 1650, after 300 years as part of Lithuania or Poland. It wasn’t fully absorbed by Russia until the late 18th century. As such, Polish and Latin remained the language of the local elite for another century at least. The Orthodox Kiev Academy taught in those languages, for example.

    The Right Bank joined Russia about 150 years later. So it spent about 450 years as part of Lithuania or Poland, 120 as Russia and then 70 as the USSR.

    Galicia was part of Poland or Austria for over 600 years and part of the USSR for 50 years. Other than a few months in 1915, it was never part of Russia.

    Southern Ukraine was settled mostly by people moving south from the Right Bank. That is, by people whose culture developed under Poland centuries longer than under Russia. But they mixed there with Russian settlers, so the region is not as unambiguously Ukrainian as the ethnic Ukrainian heartland to its north.

    A good indicator [of who is ethnic Ukrainian] would be people who consider Ukrainian to be their native language.

    Fact: There was no Ukrainian alphabet until Austrian rule, when the invention of a Ukrainian identity served the purposes of their rulers. Ukrainian” is a dialect of Russian. There is high mutual intelligibility between the Ukrainian and other Russian dialects.

    Fact: the Ukrainian language has more words in common with Polish than it does with Russian. This is due to the extensive centuries-long Polish influence on Ukraine, whose impact is comparable to that of the Norman French rulers on the English language. This makes the relationship between the Ukrainian and Russian languages different from that of, say, Bavarian and High German (or even Dutch and German, or Swedish and Danish). Here is a map of lexical differences among European languages:

    https://elms.wordpress.com/2008/03/04/lexical-distance-among-languages-of-europe/

    German and Dutch, Czech and Slovak, Swedish and Danish, and Portuguese and Spanish are closer than Russian and Ukrainian.

    In your world is there no Dutch language – it is a German dialect? No Portuguese? No Slovak?

    As in your claim of 5 billion spent to overthrow Yanukovich, it appears we are in the world of Russian fantasies.

    The country’s natives revolted [against Yakunovich].

    Some of them, and the western Ukraine (former Austria-Hungary) was disproportionately represented in the revolt

    The country’s west and center revolted. These are the most ethnic Ukrainian regions. While the Galicians were indeed over-represented they were not the majority of those in revolt in Kiev, in the country’s center, where the government fell.

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    • Replies: @Thirdeye

    The country’s west and center revolted. These are the most ethnic Ukrainian regions. While the Galicians were indeed over-represented they were not the majority of those in revolt in Kiev, in the country’s center, where the government fell.
     
    Good of you to admit that the revolt was largely carried out by the Polonized-Austrianized cultural group centered on the right bank. It illustrates quite nicely the folly of claiming that they represent the interests of Ukraine as a whole. If you want a Ukrainian state centered on the interests that group you call "ethnic Ukrainians," it's a formula for splitting Ukraine and leaving landlocked rump state in the north and west of the Ukraine. It would most likely be an agricultural colony for western Europe, much like Galicia was under Austria-Hungary, but it would be your ethnically pure paradise.

    Southern Ukraine was settled mostly by people moving south from the Right Bank. That is, by people whose culture developed under Poland centuries longer than under Russia.
     
    The Azov/Black Sea region was settled by Tatars, Turks, Bulgars, and Greeks, then Russians. It has remained a majority Russian-speaking region. It was never predominantly Polonized, or "ethnic" Ukrainian.

    As in your claim of 5 billion spent to overthrow Yanukovich, it appears we are in the world of Russian fantasies.
     
    I guess Victoria Nudelman lives in the world of Russian fantasies then.
  103. @Poles never learn

    while in socialist commonwealth it was rationed
     
    A typical phoney cliche. Bread was rationed only in times of war, regardless of political system. Normal states are self-sufficient. States producing only apples and cheap labor are not. Poland has great population, but no relevant production, like it was during interbellum.

    We don't and you should not care about "evolving attitudes". Historically, Poland produced something great only while being part of Russia or under its influence. Modern Polish art and science ceded to exist, everyone considers himself 'European', not Polish. Today, Poland can not just stay Poland, it loses its identity fast, and no one is proud of such heritage. It has either to turn West, and perish together with all decay and perversion. Or to become Russia again, I mean you must wish to evolve to become a Russian with all your heart. You have to surrender your 'Rzes Pospolita' narrative, to be ashame for monsters Pilsudski, Kostiuzko, bloody uprisisngs etc. You have a long way of convergence with Russians ahead, together with genetically close East Germans (germanized and almost spoiled Slavs). Just can't be eternal loser and plumber.

    Woah, woah, woah. I’m a critic of Russophobia as strong as you’ll find anywhere, but this comment is over the line.

    Poland has plenty of accomplishments under its belt from before and after the period of Partition (which was as much the fault of Prussia and Austria as it was Russia, through the latter gets most of flak for it). To claim that they have to be under the thumb of the Russians to achieve anything is absurd chest beating chauvinism at its worst. In fact, I argue that the resources the Russian Empire wasted on keeping central Poland in its domains did much to undermine the monarchy, and should have been avoided. While it is not a one-to-one comparison, Poland is the Ireland to Russia’s England; no matter how similar the two nations are on the surface to outsiders, and no matter how much the latter would love to control the former, they are far too different in culture and religion to exist under direct political union. Herzen warned against the arrogant belief that Russia must dominate Poland over one hundred and fifty years ago, and it needs to be restated during this troubled era we live in.

    As for Poland’s current demographics woes, it is linked to the same anomie that most European/Western nations are shackled with. If Russia dropped off the face of the Earth tomorrow, you would still have young Poles deserting their ancestral homeland to work menial jobs in the richer nations of the EU. They are doing this despite the standard of living in Poland being higher than it has ever been. That is an issue related to globalization and post-nationalist ideology that is undermining civilization as we know it. I will not claim to know how to even begin fixing it.

    To comment on Linh’s essay, I think it was quite fair and gives a good depiction of what is happening in Ukraine today. He might have his political bias (as do we all), but Linh Dinh does not strike me as someone doing a hit piece on Kiev’s dysfunction to serve Moscow’s agenda. The issues that confront the average Ukrainian are not unlike those that his Russian cousin suffered in the late 1990′s, but my guess is that there is no Putin-like figure waiting in the wings to restore order in the years ahead. The country is in serious danger of being reduced to a shattered husk that cannot function even if Washington continues to prop up the government, like many Central American nations experienced in the 80′s and 90′s or Libya today.

    A lot of this comes down to Ukrainian identity being forged from incompatible parts and populations of differing histories and culture. Roman Dmowski, who stood along with Pilsudski as one of the fathers of the modern Polish state wrote extensively on this from the end of WWI up until his death in 1939.

    [MORE]

    “There is no human force capable of preventing Ukraine, once it is torn away from Russia and transformed into an independent country, from becoming a destination for con-men from all over the world who are unwelcome in their own countries, capitalists, capital-seekers, business organizers, technicians and merchants, speculators and schemers, thugs and pimps: Germans, French, Belgians, Italians and Americans would find assistance by local or nearby Russians, Poles, Armenians, Greeks, and the most numerous and important of all, the Jews. It would be a veritable League of Nations of sorts. This elemental force, with the participation of the cleverest and most business-savvy Ukrainians, will become the country’s leadership elite. It would be a most remarkable elite, since no other country could boast such a rich collection of international low-life.
    Ukraine would become an abscess on Europe’s body; and people who dream of establishing a cultured, healthy, and powerful Ukrainian nation that could mature in its own state would quickly realize that, instead of a state of their own they have gotten an international corporation and instead of healthy development only rapidly progressing rot and decay.

    Those who believe that, given Ukraine’s geographic location, its size, and the state of the Ukrainian element, its spiritual and material resources, and the role the Ukrainian question plays in the global economy and politics, it could be otherwise has no imagination whatsoever.

    The Ukrainian question has various promoters, both in Ukraine and abroad. There are many among the latter who know perfectly well what they are aiming at. But they are also those who view the question of tearing Ukraine away from Russia in a most optimistic manner. Those naive ones would be best served by keeping their hands off Ukraine.”

    Roman Dmowski,
    Post-War World and Poland (1931)

    More here: http://www.theimaginativeconservative.org/2014/07/ukraine-question-1930-part.html

    Read More
    • Replies: @AP
    Dmowski was quite biased but he was also prescient with respect to Ukraine's - particularly Russian-ruled Ukraine's - challenges, which are considerable. The chaotic state in former Russian Ukraine was also noted by Galician Ukrainians, in 1918-1920 and today.

    Dmowski also wrote:

    The Low-Russian [Ukrainian] people differ from the High-Russian people not only in speech, but in the very fact that the latter colonized the forest regions and integrated with Finnish tribes, while the former expanded in the steppes, assimilating wandering inhabitants. These different historiographies necessarily caused the differences in the Low and High Russian languages. Another large difference results from the epic fate of the people there. When the one, remaining for a long time under Mongolian rule, developed under Mongolian influence, while the other came under the stronger or weaker influence of the West, of Poland, and to a large extent of the Church Union. In the end, it was pulled into the sphere of Roman Catholic influence. One could thus even say that the differences in character, in psychology, are actually far greater than the differences in language.
     
    , @Poles never learn

    Poland is the Ireland to Russia’s England; no matter how similar the two nations are on the surface to outsiders, and no matter how much the latter would love to control the former, they are far too different in culture and religion to exist under direct political union
     
    Westerners tend to explain Poland under Russian rule very mechanistically. Tsars and Soviet leaders had no intention to exploit Poles, they rather tried to upgrade them, to develop better version of themselves. Without Russian influence, there would be no famous Polish writers, composers, both in XIX and XX centuries. E.g now independent Poland produces only cultural crap in cinema, when compared with Socialist Poland. The ultimate goal of all Russian governments was to detach Polish society from Western decadence - e.g. moronic jesuitism, social parasitism of schlachta, ridiculous militarism and russophobia. Yet both Tsars and Stalin were too soft and did a little. Poland has 'thousand years of history' and was always populous with 'high GDP per capita of wheat-selling nobles in XVII-XVIII centuries' but failed to produce any cultural genius like Pushkin or Tolstoy. This is not in the genes, I believe, but in Western influence 'downgrading effect'.
    , @utu
    This Dmowski guy view on Ukraine

    "There is no human force capable of preventing Ukraine, once it is torn away from Russia and transformed into an independent country, from becoming a destination for con-men from all over the world "

    reminds me of Hitler's vision on the future Jewish state:

    "It doesn't even enter their heads to build up a Jewish state in Palestine for the purpose of living there; all they want is a central organization for their international world swindle, endowed with its own sovereign rights and removed from the intervention of other states: a haven for convicted scoundrels and a university for budding crooks."
  104. @Poles never learn

    while in socialist commonwealth it was rationed
     
    A typical phoney cliche. Bread was rationed only in times of war, regardless of political system. Normal states are self-sufficient. States producing only apples and cheap labor are not. Poland has great population, but no relevant production, like it was during interbellum.

    We don't and you should not care about "evolving attitudes". Historically, Poland produced something great only while being part of Russia or under its influence. Modern Polish art and science ceded to exist, everyone considers himself 'European', not Polish. Today, Poland can not just stay Poland, it loses its identity fast, and no one is proud of such heritage. It has either to turn West, and perish together with all decay and perversion. Or to become Russia again, I mean you must wish to evolve to become a Russian with all your heart. You have to surrender your 'Rzes Pospolita' narrative, to be ashame for monsters Pilsudski, Kostiuzko, bloody uprisisngs etc. You have a long way of convergence with Russians ahead, together with genetically close East Germans (germanized and almost spoiled Slavs). Just can't be eternal loser and plumber.

    Listen, I LIVED during communist times. I agree that in normal state and in normal economy food should be rationed only during war. And yet, in communist Poland, in peacetime, it was rationed.

    The rest of your post is just a useless rant, and typical for nationalist losers who are the reasons why even Poles sympathetic to Russia choose to stay with west. We are not and we will not become Russians. Our heritage and tradition is thousand years long. You reveal astounding ignorancy, it seems that you take your fantasies for a reality. We have GDP per capita higher than Russia, despite having no such great mineral resources as you do.

    I used to say to my Russian friends: come with heart, I will invite you to my house – come with tanks, I will meet you with anti-tank gun. To you, I can only say never ever talk to me again. You are epitomy of the worst kind of Russian nationalist. I would prefer rather to die than to be a monster like you.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Matra
    You are epitomy of the worst kind of Russian nationalist.

    IOW a run of the mill Unz.com Russian poster. They alienate even those who start off sympathetic to Russia.

    , @Poles never learn
    Listen, you didn't get it.

    come with heart, I will invite you to my house – come with tanks, I will meet you with anti-tank gun
     
    Today, no one will come to you neither with tanks nor with friendship. We don't need Poles like brothers, or servants, or foes or friends, or henchmen, or someone else - no one at all. Don't overestimate your value. Poland has nothing valuable to Russians - no culture, no land, no genetic material - we Russians have everything in excess. And you Poles proved you cannot be friends.

    come with tanks
     
    News of the world: no one will conquer you anymore, your fate is only annihilation. All Poles can be wiped out in half an hour. That is your choice, not ours. Your nation has placed itself there. You were offered several possibilites, during Empire and USSR - and used the worst option. Stick with the West and perish. Or become Russian.
  105. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @Anonymous bro
    You sure are making it sound like a punishment.

    Also there was no such thing as Canada before white people. The only rights we have are those we can secure with violence. If you can't secure your land, you don't deserve it

    You sure are ducking the source of colored immigration. And guess what it’s not the world trying to punish white people silly. That’s why only western white nations are being flooded with colored immigrants.

    Russia has gotten hold of its 1% and thrown them in jail or killed them. So they are a white country that doesn’t have to worry about being flooded with the third world like Germany does.

    Keep feeling sorry for yourself though, see how far that gets you.

    Also, don’t be rediculous. White people didn’t invent Canada out of thin air. They stole an existing land being occupied by others, killed them off, and renamed the land Canada.

    Lol. Finally we agree. White people in the west, note not whites in Russia, are not securing the land and they don’t deserve anything.

    Read More
    • Replies: @anon
    Sorry, but 300,000 (or so) people, divided by dozens of languages do not "occupy" roughly 4,000,000 square miles of land. This is the equivalent of about 4,000 people "occupying" Great Britain (actual population 62,000,000).

    Far from being "killed off" the Indian population of Canada has soared.
  106. The data is not comparable (in real values Russia export is 339 bln $, Poland is about 198 bln USD in 2015, more or less – twice time smaller, but remember Poland has 3.8 times smaller population and much less natural resources), put it here simply to illustrate the effects of Russian sanctions on exports of Russia and Poland.

    http://cdn.tradingeconomics.com/embed/?s=rutbex&v=201602172206n&d1=20060101&d2=20161231&title=false&url2=/poland/exports&h=300&w=600

    Read More
  107. @Cicero
    Woah, woah, woah. I'm a critic of Russophobia as strong as you'll find anywhere, but this comment is over the line.

    Poland has plenty of accomplishments under its belt from before and after the period of Partition (which was as much the fault of Prussia and Austria as it was Russia, through the latter gets most of flak for it). To claim that they have to be under the thumb of the Russians to achieve anything is absurd chest beating chauvinism at its worst. In fact, I argue that the resources the Russian Empire wasted on keeping central Poland in its domains did much to undermine the monarchy, and should have been avoided. While it is not a one-to-one comparison, Poland is the Ireland to Russia's England; no matter how similar the two nations are on the surface to outsiders, and no matter how much the latter would love to control the former, they are far too different in culture and religion to exist under direct political union. Herzen warned against the arrogant belief that Russia must dominate Poland over one hundred and fifty years ago, and it needs to be restated during this troubled era we live in.

    As for Poland's current demographics woes, it is linked to the same anomie that most European/Western nations are shackled with. If Russia dropped off the face of the Earth tomorrow, you would still have young Poles deserting their ancestral homeland to work menial jobs in the richer nations of the EU. They are doing this despite the standard of living in Poland being higher than it has ever been. That is an issue related to globalization and post-nationalist ideology that is undermining civilization as we know it. I will not claim to know how to even begin fixing it.

    To comment on Linh's essay, I think it was quite fair and gives a good depiction of what is happening in Ukraine today. He might have his political bias (as do we all), but Linh Dinh does not strike me as someone doing a hit piece on Kiev's dysfunction to serve Moscow's agenda. The issues that confront the average Ukrainian are not unlike those that his Russian cousin suffered in the late 1990's, but my guess is that there is no Putin-like figure waiting in the wings to restore order in the years ahead. The country is in serious danger of being reduced to a shattered husk that cannot function even if Washington continues to prop up the government, like many Central American nations experienced in the 80's and 90's or Libya today.

    A lot of this comes down to Ukrainian identity being forged from incompatible parts and populations of differing histories and culture. Roman Dmowski, who stood along with Pilsudski as one of the fathers of the modern Polish state wrote extensively on this from the end of WWI up until his death in 1939.

    "There is no human force capable of preventing Ukraine, once it is torn away from Russia and transformed into an independent country, from becoming a destination for con-men from all over the world who are unwelcome in their own countries, capitalists, capital-seekers, business organizers, technicians and merchants, speculators and schemers, thugs and pimps: Germans, French, Belgians, Italians and Americans would find assistance by local or nearby Russians, Poles, Armenians, Greeks, and the most numerous and important of all, the Jews. It would be a veritable League of Nations of sorts. This elemental force, with the participation of the cleverest and most business-savvy Ukrainians, will become the country's leadership elite. It would be a most remarkable elite, since no other country could boast such a rich collection of international low-life.
    Ukraine would become an abscess on Europe's body; and people who dream of establishing a cultured, healthy, and powerful Ukrainian nation that could mature in its own state would quickly realize that, instead of a state of their own they have gotten an international corporation and instead of healthy development only rapidly progressing rot and decay.

    Those who believe that, given Ukraine's geographic location, its size, and the state of the Ukrainian element, its spiritual and material resources, and the role the Ukrainian question plays in the global economy and politics, it could be otherwise has no imagination whatsoever.

    The Ukrainian question has various promoters, both in Ukraine and abroad. There are many among the latter who know perfectly well what they are aiming at. But they are also those who view the question of tearing Ukraine away from Russia in a most optimistic manner. Those naive ones would be best served by keeping their hands off Ukraine."
     
    Roman Dmowski,
    Post-War World and Poland (1931)


    More here: http://www.theimaginativeconservative.org/2014/07/ukraine-question-1930-part.html

    Dmowski was quite biased but he was also prescient with respect to Ukraine’s – particularly Russian-ruled Ukraine’s – challenges, which are considerable. The chaotic state in former Russian Ukraine was also noted by Galician Ukrainians, in 1918-1920 and today.

    Dmowski also wrote:

    The Low-Russian [Ukrainian] people differ from the High-Russian people not only in speech, but in the very fact that the latter colonized the forest regions and integrated with Finnish tribes, while the former expanded in the steppes, assimilating wandering inhabitants. These different historiographies necessarily caused the differences in the Low and High Russian languages. Another large difference results from the epic fate of the people there. When the one, remaining for a long time under Mongolian rule, developed under Mongolian influence, while the other came under the stronger or weaker influence of the West, of Poland, and to a large extent of the Church Union. In the end, it was pulled into the sphere of Roman Catholic influence. One could thus even say that the differences in character, in psychology, are actually far greater than the differences in language.

    Read More
  108. @szopen
    Listen, I LIVED during communist times. I agree that in normal state and in normal economy food should be rationed only during war. And yet, in communist Poland, in peacetime, it was rationed.

    The rest of your post is just a useless rant, and typical for nationalist losers who are the reasons why even Poles sympathetic to Russia choose to stay with west. We are not and we will not become Russians. Our heritage and tradition is thousand years long. You reveal astounding ignorancy, it seems that you take your fantasies for a reality. We have GDP per capita higher than Russia, despite having no such great mineral resources as you do.

    I used to say to my Russian friends: come with heart, I will invite you to my house - come with tanks, I will meet you with anti-tank gun. To you, I can only say never ever talk to me again. You are epitomy of the worst kind of Russian nationalist. I would prefer rather to die than to be a monster like you.

    You are epitomy of the worst kind of Russian nationalist.

    IOW a run of the mill Unz.com Russian poster. They alienate even those who start off sympathetic to Russia.

    Read More
  109. @szopen
    Listen, I LIVED during communist times. I agree that in normal state and in normal economy food should be rationed only during war. And yet, in communist Poland, in peacetime, it was rationed.

    The rest of your post is just a useless rant, and typical for nationalist losers who are the reasons why even Poles sympathetic to Russia choose to stay with west. We are not and we will not become Russians. Our heritage and tradition is thousand years long. You reveal astounding ignorancy, it seems that you take your fantasies for a reality. We have GDP per capita higher than Russia, despite having no such great mineral resources as you do.

    I used to say to my Russian friends: come with heart, I will invite you to my house - come with tanks, I will meet you with anti-tank gun. To you, I can only say never ever talk to me again. You are epitomy of the worst kind of Russian nationalist. I would prefer rather to die than to be a monster like you.

    Listen, you didn’t get it.

    come with heart, I will invite you to my house – come with tanks, I will meet you with anti-tank gun

    Today, no one will come to you neither with tanks nor with friendship. We don’t need Poles like brothers, or servants, or foes or friends, or henchmen, or someone else – no one at all. Don’t overestimate your value. Poland has nothing valuable to Russians – no culture, no land, no genetic material – we Russians have everything in excess. And you Poles proved you cannot be friends.

    come with tanks

    News of the world: no one will conquer you anymore, your fate is only annihilation. All Poles can be wiped out in half an hour. That is your choice, not ours. Your nation has placed itself there. You were offered several possibilites, during Empire and USSR – and used the worst option. Stick with the West and perish. Or become Russian.

    Read More
  110. @Cicero
    Woah, woah, woah. I'm a critic of Russophobia as strong as you'll find anywhere, but this comment is over the line.

    Poland has plenty of accomplishments under its belt from before and after the period of Partition (which was as much the fault of Prussia and Austria as it was Russia, through the latter gets most of flak for it). To claim that they have to be under the thumb of the Russians to achieve anything is absurd chest beating chauvinism at its worst. In fact, I argue that the resources the Russian Empire wasted on keeping central Poland in its domains did much to undermine the monarchy, and should have been avoided. While it is not a one-to-one comparison, Poland is the Ireland to Russia's England; no matter how similar the two nations are on the surface to outsiders, and no matter how much the latter would love to control the former, they are far too different in culture and religion to exist under direct political union. Herzen warned against the arrogant belief that Russia must dominate Poland over one hundred and fifty years ago, and it needs to be restated during this troubled era we live in.

    As for Poland's current demographics woes, it is linked to the same anomie that most European/Western nations are shackled with. If Russia dropped off the face of the Earth tomorrow, you would still have young Poles deserting their ancestral homeland to work menial jobs in the richer nations of the EU. They are doing this despite the standard of living in Poland being higher than it has ever been. That is an issue related to globalization and post-nationalist ideology that is undermining civilization as we know it. I will not claim to know how to even begin fixing it.

    To comment on Linh's essay, I think it was quite fair and gives a good depiction of what is happening in Ukraine today. He might have his political bias (as do we all), but Linh Dinh does not strike me as someone doing a hit piece on Kiev's dysfunction to serve Moscow's agenda. The issues that confront the average Ukrainian are not unlike those that his Russian cousin suffered in the late 1990's, but my guess is that there is no Putin-like figure waiting in the wings to restore order in the years ahead. The country is in serious danger of being reduced to a shattered husk that cannot function even if Washington continues to prop up the government, like many Central American nations experienced in the 80's and 90's or Libya today.

    A lot of this comes down to Ukrainian identity being forged from incompatible parts and populations of differing histories and culture. Roman Dmowski, who stood along with Pilsudski as one of the fathers of the modern Polish state wrote extensively on this from the end of WWI up until his death in 1939.

    "There is no human force capable of preventing Ukraine, once it is torn away from Russia and transformed into an independent country, from becoming a destination for con-men from all over the world who are unwelcome in their own countries, capitalists, capital-seekers, business organizers, technicians and merchants, speculators and schemers, thugs and pimps: Germans, French, Belgians, Italians and Americans would find assistance by local or nearby Russians, Poles, Armenians, Greeks, and the most numerous and important of all, the Jews. It would be a veritable League of Nations of sorts. This elemental force, with the participation of the cleverest and most business-savvy Ukrainians, will become the country's leadership elite. It would be a most remarkable elite, since no other country could boast such a rich collection of international low-life.
    Ukraine would become an abscess on Europe's body; and people who dream of establishing a cultured, healthy, and powerful Ukrainian nation that could mature in its own state would quickly realize that, instead of a state of their own they have gotten an international corporation and instead of healthy development only rapidly progressing rot and decay.

    Those who believe that, given Ukraine's geographic location, its size, and the state of the Ukrainian element, its spiritual and material resources, and the role the Ukrainian question plays in the global economy and politics, it could be otherwise has no imagination whatsoever.

    The Ukrainian question has various promoters, both in Ukraine and abroad. There are many among the latter who know perfectly well what they are aiming at. But they are also those who view the question of tearing Ukraine away from Russia in a most optimistic manner. Those naive ones would be best served by keeping their hands off Ukraine."
     
    Roman Dmowski,
    Post-War World and Poland (1931)


    More here: http://www.theimaginativeconservative.org/2014/07/ukraine-question-1930-part.html

    Poland is the Ireland to Russia’s England; no matter how similar the two nations are on the surface to outsiders, and no matter how much the latter would love to control the former, they are far too different in culture and religion to exist under direct political union

    Westerners tend to explain Poland under Russian rule very mechanistically. Tsars and Soviet leaders had no intention to exploit Poles, they rather tried to upgrade them, to develop better version of themselves. Without Russian influence, there would be no famous Polish writers, composers, both in XIX and XX centuries. E.g now independent Poland produces only cultural crap in cinema, when compared with Socialist Poland. The ultimate goal of all Russian governments was to detach Polish society from Western decadence – e.g. moronic jesuitism, social parasitism of schlachta, ridiculous militarism and russophobia. Yet both Tsars and Stalin were too soft and did a little. Poland has ‘thousand years of history’ and was always populous with ‘high GDP per capita of wheat-selling nobles in XVII-XVIII centuries’ but failed to produce any cultural genius like Pushkin or Tolstoy. This is not in the genes, I believe, but in Western influence ‘downgrading effect’.

    Read More
    • Replies: @attonn
    This makes no sense. Western influence had a clearly "upgrading effect" on Russia (before Peter the Great's westernizing reforms Russia wasn't exactly an oasis of culture, quite an opposite). Why would the same western influence have a "downgrading effect" on Poland? That's nonsense on stilts.
    , @Cicero
    You are being absurd. Polish contributions to World culture are about what you would expect given their relatively small population historically speaking*. Literature has some degree of subjectivity, but Mickiewicz, Słowacki, Norwid and Krasiński are considered great poets by any standard, Sienkiewicz was a Nobel Laureate in Literature back when that was a big deal, and Prus, Potocki, and Conrad all produced classic novels that are still read today. They did not need Russian 'encouragement' to accomplish their goals either. I can name a whole list of Polish painters, sculptors, and scientists as well if you want to make this some sort of contest, just know I'm not trying to diminish Russian contributions to civilization either.

    Poland was very much at a low point in the 18th century as its political institutions decayed, and no doubt the moral myopia of the szlachta made the nation vulnerable, but it was still a huge mistake for Russia to take territory beyond Bielorussia, the Baltic Governorates, the Right-bank Ukarine, and Podolia (That was large enough by itself). Poland should have been left well enough alone after that point, and if the Prussian and Austrians wanted to spend all of that time and energy trying to tame a hostile population (and fail), it should have been on their heads.

    Russians need to understand that the Poles occupy their own sphere in European life and should not be begrudged for it. Of course that is conditional on the Poles accepting that Russia is not going anywhere as a great power. It is clear both countries have a lot of learning to do towards one another. The two countries might even be able to work towards common goals if they choose to tolerate their differences. In a few decades it might ensure the survival of both.

    And for a last point, Stalin was no hero. He was one of the reason Hitler was able to harm the Russian people so much. That he was forced to pull his act together and crush the Nazi menace does not undo the grave crimes he committed during his rule. He and his old boss Lenin did their part to tear out the heart of Christianity in Eastern Europe that has caused so much ruin in all of the nations of the region. I will continue to denounce the Bolshevik criminals in any public forum as long as their apologists continue to skulk about.

    *About 4 to 4.5 million in from 1569 to 1717, growing to about 8 million by 1772. Compare to the (ethnic) Russians who numbered around 12 to 15 million in the 17th century and 20+ million around 1770. When you outnumber your neighbors 3 to 1, that naturally gives you a larger potential pool of talent to draw on.
  111. @Thirdeye

    Jewish think tanks Brookings Institute....
     
    The Brookings Institution is funded by Qatari royals. Are the Jewish Wahhabis or something?

    Thanks for proving that like other professional Israeli hasbara idiots, your brain is in the lower part of your body.

    I bet, US billionaire Haim Saban would be shocked to learn from you that his mother was not Jewish. He practically runs Brookings Institute. It has a propaganda outlet in Doha (Qatar) known as “Brookings Doha Center”, which was built over a plot donated by Emir of Qatar as a payback to Washington for protecting his Crown from its 20% Shi’ite subjects.

    On September 3, 2014, Stewart Ain reported at the New York Jewish week that pro-Israel Jewish group Simon Wiesenthal Center has called upon the Cornell University to close down its medical campus in Qatar for latter’s support for the Gaza ruling Palestinian resistance group Hamas.

    The Cornell University, member of America’s elite Ivy League is a Jewish-controlled educational institution. Cornell Chairman David Skorton, vice-president for University relations, Joel Malina and Provost Kent Fuchs are all Zionist Jews.

    Rabbi Marvin Heir, the founder-dean of SWC has called Cornell’s co-operation with Qatar “outrageous”.

    https://rehmat1.com/2014/09/04/jewish-lobby-declares-academic-boycott-of-qatar/

    Read More
  112. @Poles never learn

    Poland is the Ireland to Russia’s England; no matter how similar the two nations are on the surface to outsiders, and no matter how much the latter would love to control the former, they are far too different in culture and religion to exist under direct political union
     
    Westerners tend to explain Poland under Russian rule very mechanistically. Tsars and Soviet leaders had no intention to exploit Poles, they rather tried to upgrade them, to develop better version of themselves. Without Russian influence, there would be no famous Polish writers, composers, both in XIX and XX centuries. E.g now independent Poland produces only cultural crap in cinema, when compared with Socialist Poland. The ultimate goal of all Russian governments was to detach Polish society from Western decadence - e.g. moronic jesuitism, social parasitism of schlachta, ridiculous militarism and russophobia. Yet both Tsars and Stalin were too soft and did a little. Poland has 'thousand years of history' and was always populous with 'high GDP per capita of wheat-selling nobles in XVII-XVIII centuries' but failed to produce any cultural genius like Pushkin or Tolstoy. This is not in the genes, I believe, but in Western influence 'downgrading effect'.

    This makes no sense. Western influence had a clearly “upgrading effect” on Russia (before Peter the Great’s westernizing reforms Russia wasn’t exactly an oasis of culture, quite an opposite). Why would the same western influence have a “downgrading effect” on Poland? That’s nonsense on stilts.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Seamus Padraig
    Peter the Great? That was 3 centuries ago, when western civilization was in its prime. It has long since declined.
  113. anon says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @Anonymous
    You sure are ducking the source of colored immigration. And guess what it's not the world trying to punish white people silly. That's why only western white nations are being flooded with colored immigrants.

    Russia has gotten hold of its 1% and thrown them in jail or killed them. So they are a white country that doesn't have to worry about being flooded with the third world like Germany does.

    Keep feeling sorry for yourself though, see how far that gets you.


    Also, don't be rediculous. White people didn't invent Canada out of thin air. They stole an existing land being occupied by others, killed them off, and renamed the land Canada.

    Lol. Finally we agree. White people in the west, note not whites in Russia, are not securing the land and they don't deserve anything.

    Sorry, but 300,000 (or so) people, divided by dozens of languages do not “occupy” roughly 4,000,000 square miles of land. This is the equivalent of about 4,000 people “occupying” Great Britain (actual population 62,000,000).

    Far from being “killed off” the Indian population of Canada has soared.

    Read More
  114. @Poles never learn

    Poland is the Ireland to Russia’s England; no matter how similar the two nations are on the surface to outsiders, and no matter how much the latter would love to control the former, they are far too different in culture and religion to exist under direct political union
     
    Westerners tend to explain Poland under Russian rule very mechanistically. Tsars and Soviet leaders had no intention to exploit Poles, they rather tried to upgrade them, to develop better version of themselves. Without Russian influence, there would be no famous Polish writers, composers, both in XIX and XX centuries. E.g now independent Poland produces only cultural crap in cinema, when compared with Socialist Poland. The ultimate goal of all Russian governments was to detach Polish society from Western decadence - e.g. moronic jesuitism, social parasitism of schlachta, ridiculous militarism and russophobia. Yet both Tsars and Stalin were too soft and did a little. Poland has 'thousand years of history' and was always populous with 'high GDP per capita of wheat-selling nobles in XVII-XVIII centuries' but failed to produce any cultural genius like Pushkin or Tolstoy. This is not in the genes, I believe, but in Western influence 'downgrading effect'.

    You are being absurd. Polish contributions to World culture are about what you would expect given their relatively small population historically speaking*. Literature has some degree of subjectivity, but Mickiewicz, Słowacki, Norwid and Krasiński are considered great poets by any standard, Sienkiewicz was a Nobel Laureate in Literature back when that was a big deal, and Prus, Potocki, and Conrad all produced classic novels that are still read today. They did not need Russian ‘encouragement’ to accomplish their goals either. I can name a whole list of Polish painters, sculptors, and scientists as well if you want to make this some sort of contest, just know I’m not trying to diminish Russian contributions to civilization either.

    Poland was very much at a low point in the 18th century as its political institutions decayed, and no doubt the moral myopia of the szlachta made the nation vulnerable, but it was still a huge mistake for Russia to take territory beyond Bielorussia, the Baltic Governorates, the Right-bank Ukarine, and Podolia (That was large enough by itself). Poland should have been left well enough alone after that point, and if the Prussian and Austrians wanted to spend all of that time and energy trying to tame a hostile population (and fail), it should have been on their heads.

    Russians need to understand that the Poles occupy their own sphere in European life and should not be begrudged for it. Of course that is conditional on the Poles accepting that Russia is not going anywhere as a great power. It is clear both countries have a lot of learning to do towards one another. The two countries might even be able to work towards common goals if they choose to tolerate their differences. In a few decades it might ensure the survival of both.

    And for a last point, Stalin was no hero. He was one of the reason Hitler was able to harm the Russian people so much. That he was forced to pull his act together and crush the Nazi menace does not undo the grave crimes he committed during his rule. He and his old boss Lenin did their part to tear out the heart of Christianity in Eastern Europe that has caused so much ruin in all of the nations of the region. I will continue to denounce the Bolshevik criminals in any public forum as long as their apologists continue to skulk about.

    *About 4 to 4.5 million in from 1569 to 1717, growing to about 8 million by 1772. Compare to the (ethnic) Russians who numbered around 12 to 15 million in the 17th century and 20+ million around 1770. When you outnumber your neighbors 3 to 1, that naturally gives you a larger potential pool of talent to draw on.

    Read More
    • Replies: @attonn
    "evolve or perish" may very well be a subversive anti-Russian troll. They become more and more "sophisticated" every day.
    , @AP
    Overall evolve or perish's claims are nonsense, but:

    Literature has some degree of subjectivity, but Mickiewicz, Słowacki, Norwid and Krasiński are considered great poets by any standard
     
    Mickiewicz was from Russian-occupied Poland. He lived in St. Petersburg and Moscow and these places played an important role in his early career (the spot where Mickiewicz and Pushkin met is next to my old Moscow flat). Slowacki was from Russian-ruled Right Bank Ukraine.

    but it was still a huge mistake for Russia to take territory beyond... the Baltic Governorates, the Right-bank Ukarine, and Podolia (That was large enough by itself).
     
    Russian rule over these territories was also...unnatural, and would involve inherent instability. These places, part of the West for centuries (and, critically, during their formative development) were simply not in Russia's civilizational zone.
  115. @Cicero
    You are being absurd. Polish contributions to World culture are about what you would expect given their relatively small population historically speaking*. Literature has some degree of subjectivity, but Mickiewicz, Słowacki, Norwid and Krasiński are considered great poets by any standard, Sienkiewicz was a Nobel Laureate in Literature back when that was a big deal, and Prus, Potocki, and Conrad all produced classic novels that are still read today. They did not need Russian 'encouragement' to accomplish their goals either. I can name a whole list of Polish painters, sculptors, and scientists as well if you want to make this some sort of contest, just know I'm not trying to diminish Russian contributions to civilization either.

    Poland was very much at a low point in the 18th century as its political institutions decayed, and no doubt the moral myopia of the szlachta made the nation vulnerable, but it was still a huge mistake for Russia to take territory beyond Bielorussia, the Baltic Governorates, the Right-bank Ukarine, and Podolia (That was large enough by itself). Poland should have been left well enough alone after that point, and if the Prussian and Austrians wanted to spend all of that time and energy trying to tame a hostile population (and fail), it should have been on their heads.

    Russians need to understand that the Poles occupy their own sphere in European life and should not be begrudged for it. Of course that is conditional on the Poles accepting that Russia is not going anywhere as a great power. It is clear both countries have a lot of learning to do towards one another. The two countries might even be able to work towards common goals if they choose to tolerate their differences. In a few decades it might ensure the survival of both.

    And for a last point, Stalin was no hero. He was one of the reason Hitler was able to harm the Russian people so much. That he was forced to pull his act together and crush the Nazi menace does not undo the grave crimes he committed during his rule. He and his old boss Lenin did their part to tear out the heart of Christianity in Eastern Europe that has caused so much ruin in all of the nations of the region. I will continue to denounce the Bolshevik criminals in any public forum as long as their apologists continue to skulk about.

    *About 4 to 4.5 million in from 1569 to 1717, growing to about 8 million by 1772. Compare to the (ethnic) Russians who numbered around 12 to 15 million in the 17th century and 20+ million around 1770. When you outnumber your neighbors 3 to 1, that naturally gives you a larger potential pool of talent to draw on.

    “evolve or perish” may very well be a subversive anti-Russian troll. They become more and more “sophisticated” every day.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AP
    Maybe, maybe not. His attitude is not unknown among sincere Russian nationalists.
  116. @siberiancat
    If you are willing to say the same about Italy, France, Czech Republic, sure.
    http://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/country/pol/#Destinations

    Point is, Poland is exporting more, including to Italy, France and the Czech Republic, but exporting much less to Russia now, and this trend will continue.

    The other point is that Russian sanctions have had a positive effect on Polish agricultural exports, because our farmers have been forced to find new markets.

    Read More
  117. Mickiewicz, Słowacki, Norwid and Krasiński are considered great poets by any standard, Sienkiewicz was a Nobel Laureate in Literature back when that was a big deal, and Prus, Potocki, and Conrad all produced classic novels that are still read today. They did not need Russian ‘encouragement’ to accomplish their goals either.

    The literators you mention all were citizens of Russian empire, being heavily influenced by its culture, all of them spoke Russian. None of them stands nearby Pushkin or Tolstoy. Tolstoy was a count, and many more counts and princes existed in Poland – yet no such talents. The percentage of literate population (nobility) in Poland was enough to produce such genii, but something went wrong. I believe it lies in selfishness and greed of any Western alignment of Poles or German. I like Prus and Senkiewicz, writers of Russian Tsardom of Poland, and their screen adaptations made in Socialist Poland, yet nothing of such scale was produced in independent westernized Poland of interbellum. One may argue that Senkiewicz was a Russian ‘troll’ of sorts, since in his heroic epic only true Pole is a drunkard Zagloba, and all other heroes are polonized Russians (Volodyevski) or Litivns (Kmitits). Poles lie to themselves, blaming Stalin who gave them such plenty of land. For the West, Poland was always a tool (like buffer or place d’arm), for Russia and e.g. Stalin – never the tool, but always the goal. When do they ever learn?

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  118. @attonn
    "evolve or perish" may very well be a subversive anti-Russian troll. They become more and more "sophisticated" every day.

    Maybe, maybe not. His attitude is not unknown among sincere Russian nationalists.

    Read More
  119. @Cicero
    You are being absurd. Polish contributions to World culture are about what you would expect given their relatively small population historically speaking*. Literature has some degree of subjectivity, but Mickiewicz, Słowacki, Norwid and Krasiński are considered great poets by any standard, Sienkiewicz was a Nobel Laureate in Literature back when that was a big deal, and Prus, Potocki, and Conrad all produced classic novels that are still read today. They did not need Russian 'encouragement' to accomplish their goals either. I can name a whole list of Polish painters, sculptors, and scientists as well if you want to make this some sort of contest, just know I'm not trying to diminish Russian contributions to civilization either.

    Poland was very much at a low point in the 18th century as its political institutions decayed, and no doubt the moral myopia of the szlachta made the nation vulnerable, but it was still a huge mistake for Russia to take territory beyond Bielorussia, the Baltic Governorates, the Right-bank Ukarine, and Podolia (That was large enough by itself). Poland should have been left well enough alone after that point, and if the Prussian and Austrians wanted to spend all of that time and energy trying to tame a hostile population (and fail), it should have been on their heads.

    Russians need to understand that the Poles occupy their own sphere in European life and should not be begrudged for it. Of course that is conditional on the Poles accepting that Russia is not going anywhere as a great power. It is clear both countries have a lot of learning to do towards one another. The two countries might even be able to work towards common goals if they choose to tolerate their differences. In a few decades it might ensure the survival of both.

    And for a last point, Stalin was no hero. He was one of the reason Hitler was able to harm the Russian people so much. That he was forced to pull his act together and crush the Nazi menace does not undo the grave crimes he committed during his rule. He and his old boss Lenin did their part to tear out the heart of Christianity in Eastern Europe that has caused so much ruin in all of the nations of the region. I will continue to denounce the Bolshevik criminals in any public forum as long as their apologists continue to skulk about.

    *About 4 to 4.5 million in from 1569 to 1717, growing to about 8 million by 1772. Compare to the (ethnic) Russians who numbered around 12 to 15 million in the 17th century and 20+ million around 1770. When you outnumber your neighbors 3 to 1, that naturally gives you a larger potential pool of talent to draw on.

    Overall evolve or perish’s claims are nonsense, but:

    Literature has some degree of subjectivity, but Mickiewicz, Słowacki, Norwid and Krasiński are considered great poets by any standard

    Mickiewicz was from Russian-occupied Poland. He lived in St. Petersburg and Moscow and these places played an important role in his early career (the spot where Mickiewicz and Pushkin met is next to my old Moscow flat). Slowacki was from Russian-ruled Right Bank Ukraine.

    but it was still a huge mistake for Russia to take territory beyond… the Baltic Governorates, the Right-bank Ukarine, and Podolia (That was large enough by itself).

    Russian rule over these territories was also…unnatural, and would involve inherent instability. These places, part of the West for centuries (and, critically, during their formative development) were simply not in Russia’s civilizational zone.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Poles never learn

    Russian rule over these territories was also…unnatural
     
    You Poles seem to think century-bacwards. In XVII century, you wanted to conquer Moscow, as if it was XV-XVI. In XVIII century, you wanted to crush the Orthodox dissenters and keep your crown, as if it was XVII, when Russians ousted you from Russian lands in modern Ukraine and Belarus. In XIX century, you wanted Poland back, not just as independent state, but with borders of 1772 (with Orthodox Ukraine and Belarus included). In XX century, you wanted Westernized independence and others' lands again - at the expense of Russia. Now, in XXI century, you think like in Cold war, that some Russian tanks will once override noble resisting Poland, and take away your fake liberty (of being servile producer of spare parts and cheap labor for Western consumers, and stationing the US military bases). Russians have tried to be your compatriots (Kingdom and Tsardom of Poland), than brothers and allies (Warsaw pact), than just honest neighbors. You have provided Russia with backstabbing and treason on any possible occasion - allying with any scum of this planet, from Charles XII and Napoleon to Hitler and Obama, just to offend Russians. Polish nationalism is untreatable, as Polish national sense is pathetic. We Russians learned our lesson and do not expect any sense of honor in Poles. They claim to have 'gonor', but thats only silly hubris. Grow up, please. There will be neither Polish socialist republic, nor Duchy/Tsardom of Poland next time, only radioactive wasteland. Your ship has sailed.
  120. @attonn
    This makes no sense. Western influence had a clearly "upgrading effect" on Russia (before Peter the Great's westernizing reforms Russia wasn't exactly an oasis of culture, quite an opposite). Why would the same western influence have a "downgrading effect" on Poland? That's nonsense on stilts.

    Peter the Great? That was 3 centuries ago, when western civilization was in its prime. It has long since declined.

    Read More
    • Replies: @attonn
    We were discussing events from "long ago". All notable Russian cultural and scientific achevements are rooted in Peter the Great's westernizing reforms, even if they took place well after the man's death.
    That's nothing to be ashamed of.
  121. @Seamus Padraig
    Peter the Great? That was 3 centuries ago, when western civilization was in its prime. It has long since declined.

    We were discussing events from “long ago”. All notable Russian cultural and scientific achevements are rooted in Peter the Great’s westernizing reforms, even if they took place well after the man’s death.
    That’s nothing to be ashamed of.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Poles never learn

    All notable Russian cultural and scientific achevements are rooted in Peter the Great’s westernizing reforms, even if they took place well after the man’s death.
     
    It is only a Western point of view, heavily biased. If Russian developments are function of availabe resources and population, than most of them were amassed before Peter the Great - e.g. riches of Siberia, military ability etc. (with gunpowder, steel and literacy). Peter's predecessors defeated Poles and Tatars, created army and centralized state.
  122. @attonn
    We were discussing events from "long ago". All notable Russian cultural and scientific achevements are rooted in Peter the Great's westernizing reforms, even if they took place well after the man's death.
    That's nothing to be ashamed of.

    All notable Russian cultural and scientific achevements are rooted in Peter the Great’s westernizing reforms, even if they took place well after the man’s death.

    It is only a Western point of view, heavily biased. If Russian developments are function of availabe resources and population, than most of them were amassed before Peter the Great – e.g. riches of Siberia, military ability etc. (with gunpowder, steel and literacy). Peter’s predecessors defeated Poles and Tatars, created army and centralized state.

    Read More
  123. @AP
    Overall evolve or perish's claims are nonsense, but:

    Literature has some degree of subjectivity, but Mickiewicz, Słowacki, Norwid and Krasiński are considered great poets by any standard
     
    Mickiewicz was from Russian-occupied Poland. He lived in St. Petersburg and Moscow and these places played an important role in his early career (the spot where Mickiewicz and Pushkin met is next to my old Moscow flat). Slowacki was from Russian-ruled Right Bank Ukraine.

    but it was still a huge mistake for Russia to take territory beyond... the Baltic Governorates, the Right-bank Ukarine, and Podolia (That was large enough by itself).
     
    Russian rule over these territories was also...unnatural, and would involve inherent instability. These places, part of the West for centuries (and, critically, during their formative development) were simply not in Russia's civilizational zone.

    Russian rule over these territories was also…unnatural

    You Poles seem to think century-bacwards. In XVII century, you wanted to conquer Moscow, as if it was XV-XVI. In XVIII century, you wanted to crush the Orthodox dissenters and keep your crown, as if it was XVII, when Russians ousted you from Russian lands in modern Ukraine and Belarus. In XIX century, you wanted Poland back, not just as independent state, but with borders of 1772 (with Orthodox Ukraine and Belarus included). In XX century, you wanted Westernized independence and others’ lands again – at the expense of Russia. Now, in XXI century, you think like in Cold war, that some Russian tanks will once override noble resisting Poland, and take away your fake liberty (of being servile producer of spare parts and cheap labor for Western consumers, and stationing the US military bases). Russians have tried to be your compatriots (Kingdom and Tsardom of Poland), than brothers and allies (Warsaw pact), than just honest neighbors. You have provided Russia with backstabbing and treason on any possible occasion – allying with any scum of this planet, from Charles XII and Napoleon to Hitler and Obama, just to offend Russians. Polish nationalism is untreatable, as Polish national sense is pathetic. We Russians learned our lesson and do not expect any sense of honor in Poles. They claim to have ‘gonor’, but thats only silly hubris. Grow up, please. There will be neither Polish socialist republic, nor Duchy/Tsardom of Poland next time, only radioactive wasteland. Your ship has sailed.

    Read More
    • Replies: @szopen
    That's the problem with your sick kind. You not only do not know the history, but you think that murdering people and keeping them subdued should be called "being brothers and allies". And of course Russia allying with Hitler to invade Poland, common parades with Nazis and sharing intelligence information when fighting Polish resistance is something totally different and understandable.

    It's good to know that most Russians are not like you. I think the idea that you are a traitor to your own nation, a troll paid by americans to incite anti-russian feelings is spot on.

    , @Seamus Padraig
    I believe 'AP' is Galician-Ukrainian, from Lvov. He's not really ethnic Polish, but he's definitely anti-Russian.
  124. @Poles never learn

    Russian rule over these territories was also…unnatural
     
    You Poles seem to think century-bacwards. In XVII century, you wanted to conquer Moscow, as if it was XV-XVI. In XVIII century, you wanted to crush the Orthodox dissenters and keep your crown, as if it was XVII, when Russians ousted you from Russian lands in modern Ukraine and Belarus. In XIX century, you wanted Poland back, not just as independent state, but with borders of 1772 (with Orthodox Ukraine and Belarus included). In XX century, you wanted Westernized independence and others' lands again - at the expense of Russia. Now, in XXI century, you think like in Cold war, that some Russian tanks will once override noble resisting Poland, and take away your fake liberty (of being servile producer of spare parts and cheap labor for Western consumers, and stationing the US military bases). Russians have tried to be your compatriots (Kingdom and Tsardom of Poland), than brothers and allies (Warsaw pact), than just honest neighbors. You have provided Russia with backstabbing and treason on any possible occasion - allying with any scum of this planet, from Charles XII and Napoleon to Hitler and Obama, just to offend Russians. Polish nationalism is untreatable, as Polish national sense is pathetic. We Russians learned our lesson and do not expect any sense of honor in Poles. They claim to have 'gonor', but thats only silly hubris. Grow up, please. There will be neither Polish socialist republic, nor Duchy/Tsardom of Poland next time, only radioactive wasteland. Your ship has sailed.

    That’s the problem with your sick kind. You not only do not know the history, but you think that murdering people and keeping them subdued should be called “being brothers and allies”. And of course Russia allying with Hitler to invade Poland, common parades with Nazis and sharing intelligence information when fighting Polish resistance is something totally different and understandable.

    It’s good to know that most Russians are not like you. I think the idea that you are a traitor to your own nation, a troll paid by americans to incite anti-russian feelings is spot on.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Poles never learn

    That’s the problem with your sick kind...to incite anti-russian feelings
     
    It is you of the sick kind. You produce all spectrum of nationalistic bias of history, produced from inside someone's deep inferiority complex. I suggest it is imposed in Polish school or even earlier, like awful kitsch of Pilsudski and Woytyla garden dwarfs decorating city places everywhere in Poland. As we said above, no Russians care anymore of Polish feelings. When we cared before, you betrayed. Now, after 3 divorces, just evolve or perish.
  125. @Poles never learn

    Russian rule over these territories was also…unnatural
     
    You Poles seem to think century-bacwards. In XVII century, you wanted to conquer Moscow, as if it was XV-XVI. In XVIII century, you wanted to crush the Orthodox dissenters and keep your crown, as if it was XVII, when Russians ousted you from Russian lands in modern Ukraine and Belarus. In XIX century, you wanted Poland back, not just as independent state, but with borders of 1772 (with Orthodox Ukraine and Belarus included). In XX century, you wanted Westernized independence and others' lands again - at the expense of Russia. Now, in XXI century, you think like in Cold war, that some Russian tanks will once override noble resisting Poland, and take away your fake liberty (of being servile producer of spare parts and cheap labor for Western consumers, and stationing the US military bases). Russians have tried to be your compatriots (Kingdom and Tsardom of Poland), than brothers and allies (Warsaw pact), than just honest neighbors. You have provided Russia with backstabbing and treason on any possible occasion - allying with any scum of this planet, from Charles XII and Napoleon to Hitler and Obama, just to offend Russians. Polish nationalism is untreatable, as Polish national sense is pathetic. We Russians learned our lesson and do not expect any sense of honor in Poles. They claim to have 'gonor', but thats only silly hubris. Grow up, please. There will be neither Polish socialist republic, nor Duchy/Tsardom of Poland next time, only radioactive wasteland. Your ship has sailed.

    I believe ‘AP’ is Galician-Ukrainian, from Lvov. He’s not really ethnic Polish, but he’s definitely anti-Russian.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AP
    Not that it matters, but my origins are from various areas of Rzeczpospolita, and I am certainly not anti-Russian.
  126. @szopen
    That's the problem with your sick kind. You not only do not know the history, but you think that murdering people and keeping them subdued should be called "being brothers and allies". And of course Russia allying with Hitler to invade Poland, common parades with Nazis and sharing intelligence information when fighting Polish resistance is something totally different and understandable.

    It's good to know that most Russians are not like you. I think the idea that you are a traitor to your own nation, a troll paid by americans to incite anti-russian feelings is spot on.

    That’s the problem with your sick kind…to incite anti-russian feelings

    It is you of the sick kind. You produce all spectrum of nationalistic bias of history, produced from inside someone’s deep inferiority complex. I suggest it is imposed in Polish school or even earlier, like awful kitsch of Pilsudski and Woytyla garden dwarfs decorating city places everywhere in Poland. As we said above, no Russians care anymore of Polish feelings. When we cared before, you betrayed. Now, after 3 divorces, just evolve or perish.

    Read More
    • Replies: @szopen
    You don't care and that's why you just have to scream that was every second your post. You are an idiot. Or paid troll. There is no third option. Your ignorancy is just stunning. Your grandparents probably were of the kind who negotiated deals with Hitler about splitting Poland.
    You are saying about Polish art produced under Russia's brutal occupation, forgetting that many of those artists were expelled or escaped themselves.

    Somehow Poland is much, much better now than when in brotherly alliance with Russia. While Russia GDP floundered for years, our economy recovered quickly. The effect of the recent sanctions was minimal, as our exports and economy continue to grow, while Russian exports dwindled. That must be frustrating, huh. All what's left for you are empty threats.

    I was once into pan-slavism and all that BS. I was full of brotherly, warm feelings for all my fellow Slavs. Then a troll like this one came to our forum and started spitting his hatred, about how Poles should become Russian and part of one big Russian sea. While the forum eventually died off from different reasons, this troll was very, very efficient cure for panslavism.
  127. @Seamus Padraig
    I believe 'AP' is Galician-Ukrainian, from Lvov. He's not really ethnic Polish, but he's definitely anti-Russian.

    Not that it matters, but my origins are from various areas of Rzeczpospolita, and I am certainly not anti-Russian.

    Read More
    • Replies: @annamaria
    "I am certainly not anti-Russian."
    You certainly are.
    , @Seamus Padraig
    If you are not Ukrainian then, what exactly is your interest in Ukraine? I made that deduction from your history of posts over the last few months, but I couldn't remember if you had mentioned your nationality outright.
  128. @Poles never learn

    That’s the problem with your sick kind...to incite anti-russian feelings
     
    It is you of the sick kind. You produce all spectrum of nationalistic bias of history, produced from inside someone's deep inferiority complex. I suggest it is imposed in Polish school or even earlier, like awful kitsch of Pilsudski and Woytyla garden dwarfs decorating city places everywhere in Poland. As we said above, no Russians care anymore of Polish feelings. When we cared before, you betrayed. Now, after 3 divorces, just evolve or perish.

    You don’t care and that’s why you just have to scream that was every second your post. You are an idiot. Or paid troll. There is no third option. Your ignorancy is just stunning. Your grandparents probably were of the kind who negotiated deals with Hitler about splitting Poland.
    You are saying about Polish art produced under Russia’s brutal occupation, forgetting that many of those artists were expelled or escaped themselves.

    Somehow Poland is much, much better now than when in brotherly alliance with Russia. While Russia GDP floundered for years, our economy recovered quickly. The effect of the recent sanctions was minimal, as our exports and economy continue to grow, while Russian exports dwindled. That must be frustrating, huh. All what’s left for you are empty threats.

    I was once into pan-slavism and all that BS. I was full of brotherly, warm feelings for all my fellow Slavs. Then a troll like this one came to our forum and started spitting his hatred, about how Poles should become Russian and part of one big Russian sea. While the forum eventually died off from different reasons, this troll was very, very efficient cure for panslavism.

    Read More
  129. very efficient cure for panslavism

    Well, once we all played panslavism. That means, Poles, Chechs and whoever else gain their land from Russian hands (e.g. Silezia), than live by the Russian expense and receive everything gratis, and then, getting all they want, they betray the Russians. There is a good fairy-tale about 3 brothers who tried to get 3 magic items. Two brothers failed, the 3rd one succeeded and shared his trophy with them, but 2 brothers couldn’t stand his success, and killed him. My grandparents were of the kind who saved Poland (my grandfather has a medal for liberating Warsaw), and your – of the kind who licked German a*s and supplied the deathcamps with firewood to burn Jews. Poland just cannot into space, that’s all you should know of your GDP.

    Read More
    • Replies: @szopen
    My grandparent was first soldier of AK and then soldier of Polish People's army and fought Nazis all the way to Berlin. And if we lived off Russia, arsehole, then how you would explain the fact that after Russia get rid of us, it couldn't improve its economy way into 2005, while in Poland crisis was relatively shorter? I mean, you had gas, oil, all natural resources, almost four times as large population, it should be that Poland's crisis should last many years longer than your, instead we recovered quickly. Of course, the truth is that you were robbing us and sipping off everything from Poland, while preventing people like Karpiński to innovate.

    Just look here in real GDP: when we were "allied" with you, we had lower GDP per capita. Then we got independent, and - you economy plummeted and then had not really recovered until 2005 or os, while we had sharp but short crisis and we have now HIGHER GDP PER CAPITA than you? How so? The help from the west couldn't be the answer, as this help was quite small before 2005 relatively to our economy size. If we were the burder, the parasites, it should be that OUR economy would collapse, and your - free from parasites - would jump forward. But the exact opposite happened. So who was the parasite?

    http://www.link2portal.com/sites/default/files/image/BT/2014/UkraineGraph.png

    This is even more visible if you would take 1990 GDP as a 100%. Look how deeply Russia's economy went down, and how long this crisis lasted - especially in comparison with Poland

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B0xr4uHIUAAMsQl.png

    And here again in real GDP:
    http://admin.americanthinker.com/images/bucket/2014-07/192720_5_.png

    (note that both graphs seem to use different measures of GDP, but both tell basically the same story despite that).

  130. @Poles never learn

    very efficient cure for panslavism
     
    Well, once we all played panslavism. That means, Poles, Chechs and whoever else gain their land from Russian hands (e.g. Silezia), than live by the Russian expense and receive everything gratis, and then, getting all they want, they betray the Russians. There is a good fairy-tale about 3 brothers who tried to get 3 magic items. Two brothers failed, the 3rd one succeeded and shared his trophy with them, but 2 brothers couldn't stand his success, and killed him. My grandparents were of the kind who saved Poland (my grandfather has a medal for liberating Warsaw), and your - of the kind who licked German a*s and supplied the deathcamps with firewood to burn Jews. Poland just cannot into space, that's all you should know of your GDP.

    My grandparent was first soldier of AK and then soldier of Polish People’s army and fought Nazis all the way to Berlin. And if we lived off Russia, arsehole, then how you would explain the fact that after Russia get rid of us, it couldn’t improve its economy way into 2005, while in Poland crisis was relatively shorter? I mean, you had gas, oil, all natural resources, almost four times as large population, it should be that Poland’s crisis should last many years longer than your, instead we recovered quickly. Of course, the truth is that you were robbing us and sipping off everything from Poland, while preventing people like Karpiński to innovate.

    Just look here in real GDP: when we were “allied” with you, we had lower GDP per capita. Then we got independent, and – you economy plummeted and then had not really recovered until 2005 or os, while we had sharp but short crisis and we have now HIGHER GDP PER CAPITA than you? How so? The help from the west couldn’t be the answer, as this help was quite small before 2005 relatively to our economy size. If we were the burder, the parasites, it should be that OUR economy would collapse, and your – free from parasites – would jump forward. But the exact opposite happened. So who was the parasite?

    http://www.link2portal.com/sites/default/files/image/BT/2014/UkraineGraph.png

    This is even more visible if you would take 1990 GDP as a 100%. Look how deeply Russia’s economy went down, and how long this crisis lasted – especially in comparison with Poland

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B0xr4uHIUAAMsQl.png

    And here again in real GDP:

    http://admin.americanthinker.com/images/bucket/2014-07/192720_5_.png

    (note that both graphs seem to use different measures of GDP, but both tell basically the same story despite that).

    Read More
    • Replies: @Poles never learn

    My grandparent was first soldier of AK and then soldier of Polish People’s army and fought Nazis all the way to Berlin
     
    That's a good point to start, better than listing Batory or Catherine's deeds and mistakes. Don't betray grandpa's memory, he eywitnessed Russians giving their lives for free Poland and I believe everyone felt like brothers. I believe Poles had their free national state with no German/Russian/EU/US masters all the way until 1990s. Poland produced everything from food to weapons - sponsored by USSR, with Russians robbed off their standards of life to provide more for Poland, Hungary (with way more economic liberties than in USSR), and republics like Estonia. Who owns Poland now? Whom do the manufacturing plants belong now? Definitely not the Polish people.

    you were robbing us and sipping off everything from Poland
     
    Any data, please? Poland was provided with cheap energy, and lots of USSR technologies were transferred gratis - from supercomputers to tanks and warplanes. Polish shipbuilders always had orders from USSR. And what exactly Poland has provided in return? I remember only Polish 'Kasya' kitchen furniture.

    after Russia get rid of us
     
    This is very strong point, no jokes. Some people believe it was not a liberation movement in Eastern block (remember Waleza the KGB agent), but Soviet elite just decided to cast off the burden, as you say. Since USSR got these rockets, we need no large armies and buffer states anymore. We feel somewhat sorry for that - what if 100 years more togeter and we could both live in communism? What if...

    Just look here in real GDP
     
    This is very Western point of view. OK, let us assume you have that shining GDP and a zillion more. But can you design and build computers, rockets, complete cars, submarines, provide all the foodchain? No. Just some assembly work, some 'valves, circuits and spare parts' for some foreing Volkswagen etc. You are very dependent on the Western system of capital, and whem something goes wrong, you collapse with the system (when no one needs pears or circuits any more). In Soviet times, you could at least provide yourself with bread, tanks and ammo.

    HIGHER GDP PER CAPITA
     
    That has sense only when you measure everything in money. With your great GDP, you cannot provide your kids with best education and healthcare, like I can. I have low taxes, many free stuff, and no debt. Poland debt/GDP is 50%, Russia's only 17% and goes down. I visited Poland several times in 2003-2006. Not too much luxury and happiness indeed.
  131. @AP
    Not that it matters, but my origins are from various areas of Rzeczpospolita, and I am certainly not anti-Russian.

    “I am certainly not anti-Russian.”
    You certainly are.

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    • Replies: @AP
    Please provide a quote where I have denigrated the Russian people or culture, liar.
  132. Please provide a quote where I have denigrated the Russian people or culture, liar.

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  133. @annamaria
    "I am certainly not anti-Russian."
    You certainly are.

    Please provide a quote where I have denigrated the Russian people or culture, liar.

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  134. @AP
    Not that it matters, but my origins are from various areas of Rzeczpospolita, and I am certainly not anti-Russian.

    If you are not Ukrainian then, what exactly is your interest in Ukraine? I made that deduction from your history of posts over the last few months, but I couldn’t remember if you had mentioned your nationality outright.

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    • Replies: @szopen
    Ukraine is of vital importance to Poland. Independent Ukraine is much better from out point of view than Ukraine incorporated into Russia or as Russia's satellite.
    , @AP
    I didn't state I wasn't Ukrainian, Ukraine was part of Rzeczpospolita also. In my own diverse family were: Galician boyars (some of whom became - Ukrainians; others - Natione Polonus, gente Ruthenus, others - Russian nationalists); an 18th century kasztellan of Minsk, an Austrian-Tyrolean officer stationed in Galicia whose children married locals, a 1930s Polish PM, Pilsudski ally; a Mazepist officer who fled west, peasants/kulaks from the Right Bank, etc. I married an ethnic Polish-Russian girl from Moscow. My interest - I enjoy discussing and arguing eastern European politics/history with informed, intelligent people.
  135. @szopen
    My grandparent was first soldier of AK and then soldier of Polish People's army and fought Nazis all the way to Berlin. And if we lived off Russia, arsehole, then how you would explain the fact that after Russia get rid of us, it couldn't improve its economy way into 2005, while in Poland crisis was relatively shorter? I mean, you had gas, oil, all natural resources, almost four times as large population, it should be that Poland's crisis should last many years longer than your, instead we recovered quickly. Of course, the truth is that you were robbing us and sipping off everything from Poland, while preventing people like Karpiński to innovate.

    Just look here in real GDP: when we were "allied" with you, we had lower GDP per capita. Then we got independent, and - you economy plummeted and then had not really recovered until 2005 or os, while we had sharp but short crisis and we have now HIGHER GDP PER CAPITA than you? How so? The help from the west couldn't be the answer, as this help was quite small before 2005 relatively to our economy size. If we were the burder, the parasites, it should be that OUR economy would collapse, and your - free from parasites - would jump forward. But the exact opposite happened. So who was the parasite?

    http://www.link2portal.com/sites/default/files/image/BT/2014/UkraineGraph.png

    This is even more visible if you would take 1990 GDP as a 100%. Look how deeply Russia's economy went down, and how long this crisis lasted - especially in comparison with Poland

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B0xr4uHIUAAMsQl.png

    And here again in real GDP:
    http://admin.americanthinker.com/images/bucket/2014-07/192720_5_.png

    (note that both graphs seem to use different measures of GDP, but both tell basically the same story despite that).

    My grandparent was first soldier of AK and then soldier of Polish People’s army and fought Nazis all the way to Berlin

    That’s a good point to start, better than listing Batory or Catherine’s deeds and mistakes. Don’t betray grandpa’s memory, he eywitnessed Russians giving their lives for free Poland and I believe everyone felt like brothers. I believe Poles had their free national state with no German/Russian/EU/US masters all the way until 1990s. Poland produced everything from food to weapons – sponsored by USSR, with Russians robbed off their standards of life to provide more for Poland, Hungary (with way more economic liberties than in USSR), and republics like Estonia. Who owns Poland now? Whom do the manufacturing plants belong now? Definitely not the Polish people.

    you were robbing us and sipping off everything from Poland

    Any data, please? Poland was provided with cheap energy, and lots of USSR technologies were transferred gratis – from supercomputers to tanks and warplanes. Polish shipbuilders always had orders from USSR. And what exactly Poland has provided in return? I remember only Polish ‘Kasya’ kitchen furniture.

    after Russia get rid of us

    This is very strong point, no jokes. Some people believe it was not a liberation movement in Eastern block (remember Waleza the KGB agent), but Soviet elite just decided to cast off the burden, as you say. Since USSR got these rockets, we need no large armies and buffer states anymore. We feel somewhat sorry for that – what if 100 years more togeter and we could both live in communism? What if…

    Just look here in real GDP

    This is very Western point of view. OK, let us assume you have that shining GDP and a zillion more. But can you design and build computers, rockets, complete cars, submarines, provide all the foodchain? No. Just some assembly work, some ‘valves, circuits and spare parts’ for some foreing Volkswagen etc. You are very dependent on the Western system of capital, and whem something goes wrong, you collapse with the system (when no one needs pears or circuits any more). In Soviet times, you could at least provide yourself with bread, tanks and ammo.

    HIGHER GDP PER CAPITA

    That has sense only when you measure everything in money. With your great GDP, you cannot provide your kids with best education and healthcare, like I can. I have low taxes, many free stuff, and no debt. Poland debt/GDP is 50%, Russia’s only 17% and goes down. I visited Poland several times in 2003-2006. Not too much luxury and happiness indeed.

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  136. Here is your most famous line that makes apologia for the regime change in Kiev: “In 2013 Yanukovich was set to bind Ukraine into the Eurasian Union… This would also have cemented his non-Ukrainian rule over Ukraine’s natives.”
    The comical nature of this statement in relation to reality made you write a clarification: “…before the revolution Ukraine was ruled by a non-Ukrainian president, a non-Ukrainian immigrant Prime Minister, and a non-Ukrainian immigrant defense minister. They were replaced by actual Ukrainians, for the most part (a Georgian governor and Lithuanian minister is not nearly as substantial of a foreign element as is the actual presidency and prime minister.” I still have the same Q for your (asking it for the third time), how purebred-Ukrainians are both Poroshenko and Yatz, considering the murmurs that both of them are of Jewish stock to some degree?
    Here is a sampling of your attitude towards Russian federation: “So far Ukraine remains a mess economically and politically (though it is not as bad as Russians hope)…” Do you really believe that Russia needs “a mess economically and politically” on her borders?
    “Over one million people have moved to Russia from southeast Ukraine since the beginning of the armed conflict and about 600,000 of them have decided never to return home…” https://newcoldwar.org/russia-has-accepted-over-one-million-ukrainians-forced-out-of-homes-by-donbas-war/

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    • Replies: @AP
    So, no denigrating comments made about the Russian people or their culture.

    Your status as a liar is confirmed.


    Here is a sampling of your attitude towards Russian federation: “So far Ukraine remains a mess economically and politically (though it is not as bad as Russians hope)…” Do you really believe that Russia needs “a mess economically and politically” on her borders?
     
    From a certain point of view, it is in Russia's interests for a Ukraine that has has turned decisively from Russia to be a mess. Better that, than an effective rival next door. A hostile Ukraine as a mess can't cause problems for Russia because it is preoccupied with its own problems, it provides "proof" of the folly of turning away from Russia, and it punishes the West by forcing it to pay for Ukraine's problems. And migrants to Russia from Ukraine help with Russia's Slavic demographics.

    Again, there is no denigration of the Russian people or its culture in my statement. You are a liar.


    I still have the same Q for your (asking it for the third time), how purebred-Ukrainians are both Poroshenko and Yatz, considering the murmurs that both of them are of Jewish stock to some degree?
     
    I have addressed the issue of the national backgrounds of Ukraine's government figures in responses to people more worthy of responses than you are.

    Unverified rumors of Yatseniuk's (a Greek Catholic) possible distant Jewish heritage, with no hard evidence, don't amount to much. What next? Measuring the length of his nose, Nazi-style? He's a a Ukrainian. Poroshenko's father was a Jewish man who converted to the Orthodox Church, and his mother was an ethnic Ukrainian. He was raised Orthodox and is a devout Orthodox Christian.

    Yateniuk and Poroshenko ultimately replaced a government whose president was Russian-Belarussian and whose Prime Minister was a Russian man who moved to Ukraine when he was nearly 40 years old.

    Hm...which government of Ukraine was more ethnic Ukrainian?

  137. @Seamus Padraig
    If you are not Ukrainian then, what exactly is your interest in Ukraine? I made that deduction from your history of posts over the last few months, but I couldn't remember if you had mentioned your nationality outright.

    Ukraine is of vital importance to Poland. Independent Ukraine is much better from out point of view than Ukraine incorporated into Russia or as Russia’s satellite.

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    • Replies: @5371
    "Independent Ukraine" can only mean a farcical entity like the present one, in a permanent condition of cold or hot civil war, and existing only as a colonial outpost of the west to attempt to damage Russia. And after stating you prefer this monstrosity to an arrangement where Russia exercises its natural influence, no matter how unthreatening to you, you still claim not to understand why Russians don't like you.
    , @Seamus Padraig
    Why not divvy up Ukraine with Russia then? If Poland were to take over Galicia and Russia were to take over Novorossiya, that would solve a lot of problems.
  138. @szopen
    Ukraine is of vital importance to Poland. Independent Ukraine is much better from out point of view than Ukraine incorporated into Russia or as Russia's satellite.

    “Independent Ukraine” can only mean a farcical entity like the present one, in a permanent condition of cold or hot civil war, and existing only as a colonial outpost of the west to attempt to damage Russia. And after stating you prefer this monstrosity to an arrangement where Russia exercises its natural influence, no matter how unthreatening to you, you still claim not to understand why Russians don’t like you.

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    • Replies: @szopen
    I have a faith in Ukrainians. While until now they had absolutely the worst record with respect to the economical progress from all former communist states (maybe Moldova was worst?) there is nothing which would prevent them from building wealthy and strong state. They have rich soil, well-educated people, all necessary resources to built healthy economy.

    As for Russia "unthreatening", well, from experiences of last decades, no matter what Polish government did, whether they wre friendly or hostile to Russia, there seem to be no effect on Russian attitude to Poland. Actualy you have one troll here who openly states that Russia doesn't care about Poland and would prefer it to be radioactive wasteland. Good example are negotiations about shipping via cieśnina Pilawska - after 25 years of hearing Russian promises that this time they surely will cooperate and won't disturb traffic to Polish ports, our government finally decided enough is enough and is digging a canal.

    There is also a question of seemingly random bans on Polish exports; and history of interviews with Russian military or philosphers stating, that Russia is empire and will rebuilt its spheres of influences. Given our history with Russia, it's hard to not to be cautious about that, especially that even today it's clear that Russia divides world into great powers and everyone else, and makes no distinctions between Montenegro and Poland.

    And again, it does not mean we are hostile to Russia as a state, and especially it does not mean we are hostile to Russians. Being wary of some large guy does not mean you hate him; if you start to go to the gym, because you are a bit affraid of him, this still does not mean you hate him or that you intend to attack him. I like Russians, in fact - except for some trolls like this guy above. As long as we don't talk politics, one can find very similar soul with Russians, a refreshing honesty different from Anglo-Saxon coldness. But this does not change a bit about geopolitics. I am Polish, and I want my state to be independent, and have strong position in any possible conflict.
  139. @annamaria
    Here is your most famous line that makes apologia for the regime change in Kiev: "In 2013 Yanukovich was set to bind Ukraine into the Eurasian Union... This would also have cemented his non-Ukrainian rule over Ukraine’s natives."
    The comical nature of this statement in relation to reality made you write a clarification: "...before the revolution Ukraine was ruled by a non-Ukrainian president, a non-Ukrainian immigrant Prime Minister, and a non-Ukrainian immigrant defense minister. They were replaced by actual Ukrainians, for the most part (a Georgian governor and Lithuanian minister is not nearly as substantial of a foreign element as is the actual presidency and prime minister." I still have the same Q for your (asking it for the third time), how purebred-Ukrainians are both Poroshenko and Yatz, considering the murmurs that both of them are of Jewish stock to some degree?
    Here is a sampling of your attitude towards Russian federation: "So far Ukraine remains a mess economically and politically (though it is not as bad as Russians hope)..." Do you really believe that Russia needs "a mess economically and politically" on her borders?
    "Over one million people have moved to Russia from southeast Ukraine since the beginning of the armed conflict and about 600,000 of them have decided never to return home..." https://newcoldwar.org/russia-has-accepted-over-one-million-ukrainians-forced-out-of-homes-by-donbas-war/

    So, no denigrating comments made about the Russian people or their culture.

    Your status as a liar is confirmed.

    Here is a sampling of your attitude towards Russian federation: “So far Ukraine remains a mess economically and politically (though it is not as bad as Russians hope)…” Do you really believe that Russia needs “a mess economically and politically” on her borders?

    From a certain point of view, it is in Russia’s interests for a Ukraine that has has turned decisively from Russia to be a mess. Better that, than an effective rival next door. A hostile Ukraine as a mess can’t cause problems for Russia because it is preoccupied with its own problems, it provides “proof” of the folly of turning away from Russia, and it punishes the West by forcing it to pay for Ukraine’s problems. And migrants to Russia from Ukraine help with Russia’s Slavic demographics.

    Again, there is no denigration of the Russian people or its culture in my statement. You are a liar.

    I still have the same Q for your (asking it for the third time), how purebred-Ukrainians are both Poroshenko and Yatz, considering the murmurs that both of them are of Jewish stock to some degree?

    I have addressed the issue of the national backgrounds of Ukraine’s government figures in responses to people more worthy of responses than you are.

    Unverified rumors of Yatseniuk’s (a Greek Catholic) possible distant Jewish heritage, with no hard evidence, don’t amount to much. What next? Measuring the length of his nose, Nazi-style? He’s a a Ukrainian. Poroshenko’s father was a Jewish man who converted to the Orthodox Church, and his mother was an ethnic Ukrainian. He was raised Orthodox and is a devout Orthodox Christian.

    Yateniuk and Poroshenko ultimately replaced a government whose president was Russian-Belarussian and whose Prime Minister was a Russian man who moved to Ukraine when he was nearly 40 years old.

    Hm…which government of Ukraine was more ethnic Ukrainian?

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    • Replies: @annamaria
    The lady doth protest too much.

    For a person interested in the history of Eastern Europe (as you claim), this your statement requires a special attention: "A hostile Ukraine as a mess... can't cause problems for Russia because it is preoccupied with its own problems." You fain an ignorance of the considerable Russian investment into Ukraine in order to maintain Ukraine as a functioning state - before the US got involved in Kiev. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2013-12-17/russia-commits-15-billion-to-ukraine-bonds-as-gas-price-reduced
    There was a reason for Russians to help Ukraine before the US assets Poroschenko and Yatz have initiated (with Brennan' blessings) the civil war in Ukraine. You are free to refute the statement that Poroschenko and Yatz have been the US assets and that Brennan (the former director of CIA) was involved in Kievan junta' decision to attack the citizens of Ukraine in east Ukraine.
    (https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/06KIEV1706_a.html https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/456034542147895296)

    "A hostile Ukraine as a mess... punishes the West by forcing it to pay for Ukraine’s problems." May I ask you, what event had preceded the West' necessity "to pay for Ukraine problems?" What had Mrs. Nuland-Kagan & Mr. Pyatt been doing in Kiev during Maidan protest? Here is an answer for you: Nuland-Kagan & Pyatt were busy with bringing in the regime change to the borders of Russian federation. Please do not play an offended innocence if responding.

    "Unverified rumors of Yatseniuk’s (a Greek Catholic) possible distant Jewish heritage... What next? Measuring the length of his nose, Nazi-style?"
    You are very liberal with insulting other people when their comments address the peculiarities of your reasoning. Note that I do not care about the genetic makeup of people in the Ukrainian government; it was your statement about the ethnically "pure" new government in Kiev that caught my attention. I found it curious that you had carefully omitted the presence of such great Ukrainian patriots as the leaders of Right Sector (neo-Nazis) in the new Kiev government, as well as the involvement of Kolomojsky (triple citizenship) in the civil war on a side of Kiev and against the pro-federalist Ukrainian citizens in east Ukraine. The "trafficking" of Saakishvilli (wanted on serious charges in Georgia) to govern Odessa and Odessa region, and the installment of the fraudster Jaresko as the Minister of Finance of Ukraine (for how long had she been living in Ukraine before getting this important position in Kiev government?) do not ring well with your satisfaction that the current government of Ukraine is "more ethnic Ukrainian" than the previous one; the previous government was no more corrupt than the current "pure" government.
    http://www.voanews.com/content/two-years-after-uprising-ukraine-still-battling-corruption/3208943.html
    "Doubts about Poroshenko's commitment to change persist. He was ranked Ukraine's sixth-richest man in 2015 by the Novoe Vremia newspaper, with an estimated worth of $979 million. He was also the only person in the top 10 whose net worth had increased since 2014 (by 20 percent)."

    , @annamaria
    Here is a comment by David Habakkuk (on Sic Semper Tyrannis) on the beauty of Ukrainian ethnic purity. http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2016/02/httpthesakerisrussian-mod-press-briefing-for-february-24th-2016.html#comments
    "On 2 May 2014, as anti-Maidan protestors were burned alive in the Trade Union building in Odessa, the symbolism of the 'St. George's Ribbon' took centre stage. To quote a 'New York Times' report from two days later: 'The conflict is hardening hearts on both sides. As the building burned, Ukrainian activists sang the Ukrainian national anthem, witnesses on both sides said. They also hurled a new taunt: ''Colorado'' for the Colorado potato beetle, striped red and black like the pro-Russian ribbons. Those outside chanted ''burn Colorado, burn,'' witnesses said. Swastikalike symbols were spray painted on the building, along with graffiti reading ''Galician SS,'' though it was unclear when it had appeared, or who had painted it". http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/05/world/europe/kievs-reins-weaken-as-chaos-spreads.html
    "You might also look at the Wikipedia entry on the 'Azov Batallion' which is described as a 'National Guard of Ukraine regiment'. Unfortunately, there is a good deal of woffle in the entry, intended to mute the impact of the fact that its logo contains light transformations of the 'Wolfsangel', the symbol of the Waffen-SS Division, 'Das Reich', and the 'Black Sun' symbol. This was set into the floor of the Obergruppenführer hall" in the castle of Wewelsburg, which, to quote the relevant Wikipedia entry, became the 'representative and the ideological center of the order of the SS.' Shortly before the invasion of the Soviet Union, Himmler told high-ranking SS officers gathered there that its purpose was – according to a 2010 Bloomberg report entitled 'Himmler's Eerie Castle Explores Warped SS Ideology, Nazi Crimes' – to 'decimate the Slavic race by 30 million.'"
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion ; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sun_(occult_symbol) ; http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2010-04-13/himmler-s-eerie-castle-explores-warped-ss-ideology-nazi-crimes.
  140. @Seamus Padraig
    If you are not Ukrainian then, what exactly is your interest in Ukraine? I made that deduction from your history of posts over the last few months, but I couldn't remember if you had mentioned your nationality outright.

    I didn’t state I wasn’t Ukrainian, Ukraine was part of Rzeczpospolita also. In my own diverse family were: Galician boyars (some of whom became – Ukrainians; others – Natione Polonus, gente Ruthenus, others – Russian nationalists); an 18th century kasztellan of Minsk, an Austrian-Tyrolean officer stationed in Galicia whose children married locals, a 1930s Polish PM, Pilsudski ally; a Mazepist officer who fled west, peasants/kulaks from the Right Bank, etc. I married an ethnic Polish-Russian girl from Moscow. My interest – I enjoy discussing and arguing eastern European politics/history with informed, intelligent people.

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  141. @5371
    "Independent Ukraine" can only mean a farcical entity like the present one, in a permanent condition of cold or hot civil war, and existing only as a colonial outpost of the west to attempt to damage Russia. And after stating you prefer this monstrosity to an arrangement where Russia exercises its natural influence, no matter how unthreatening to you, you still claim not to understand why Russians don't like you.

    I have a faith in Ukrainians. While until now they had absolutely the worst record with respect to the economical progress from all former communist states (maybe Moldova was worst?) there is nothing which would prevent them from building wealthy and strong state. They have rich soil, well-educated people, all necessary resources to built healthy economy.

    As for Russia “unthreatening”, well, from experiences of last decades, no matter what Polish government did, whether they wre friendly or hostile to Russia, there seem to be no effect on Russian attitude to Poland. Actualy you have one troll here who openly states that Russia doesn’t care about Poland and would prefer it to be radioactive wasteland. Good example are negotiations about shipping via cieśnina Pilawska – after 25 years of hearing Russian promises that this time they surely will cooperate and won’t disturb traffic to Polish ports, our government finally decided enough is enough and is digging a canal.

    There is also a question of seemingly random bans on Polish exports; and history of interviews with Russian military or philosphers stating, that Russia is empire and will rebuilt its spheres of influences. Given our history with Russia, it’s hard to not to be cautious about that, especially that even today it’s clear that Russia divides world into great powers and everyone else, and makes no distinctions between Montenegro and Poland.

    And again, it does not mean we are hostile to Russia as a state, and especially it does not mean we are hostile to Russians. Being wary of some large guy does not mean you hate him; if you start to go to the gym, because you are a bit affraid of him, this still does not mean you hate him or that you intend to attack him. I like Russians, in fact – except for some trolls like this guy above. As long as we don’t talk politics, one can find very similar soul with Russians, a refreshing honesty different from Anglo-Saxon coldness. But this does not change a bit about geopolitics. I am Polish, and I want my state to be independent, and have strong position in any possible conflict.

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    • Replies: @5371
    I would say that from a Polish point of view, the one silver lining of all the 20th century unpleasantness is that you now have an ethno-state and can afford to no longer think of yourselves as an empire, a role you now are unable to fill. So why not take advantage of that? Russia, on the other hand, as has been proved time and again, will either be a great power or not exist at all.
  142. @AP
    So, no denigrating comments made about the Russian people or their culture.

    Your status as a liar is confirmed.


    Here is a sampling of your attitude towards Russian federation: “So far Ukraine remains a mess economically and politically (though it is not as bad as Russians hope)…” Do you really believe that Russia needs “a mess economically and politically” on her borders?
     
    From a certain point of view, it is in Russia's interests for a Ukraine that has has turned decisively from Russia to be a mess. Better that, than an effective rival next door. A hostile Ukraine as a mess can't cause problems for Russia because it is preoccupied with its own problems, it provides "proof" of the folly of turning away from Russia, and it punishes the West by forcing it to pay for Ukraine's problems. And migrants to Russia from Ukraine help with Russia's Slavic demographics.

    Again, there is no denigration of the Russian people or its culture in my statement. You are a liar.


    I still have the same Q for your (asking it for the third time), how purebred-Ukrainians are both Poroshenko and Yatz, considering the murmurs that both of them are of Jewish stock to some degree?
     
    I have addressed the issue of the national backgrounds of Ukraine's government figures in responses to people more worthy of responses than you are.

    Unverified rumors of Yatseniuk's (a Greek Catholic) possible distant Jewish heritage, with no hard evidence, don't amount to much. What next? Measuring the length of his nose, Nazi-style? He's a a Ukrainian. Poroshenko's father was a Jewish man who converted to the Orthodox Church, and his mother was an ethnic Ukrainian. He was raised Orthodox and is a devout Orthodox Christian.

    Yateniuk and Poroshenko ultimately replaced a government whose president was Russian-Belarussian and whose Prime Minister was a Russian man who moved to Ukraine when he was nearly 40 years old.

    Hm...which government of Ukraine was more ethnic Ukrainian?

    The lady doth protest too much.

    For a person interested in the history of Eastern Europe (as you claim), this your statement requires a special attention: “A hostile Ukraine as a mess… can’t cause problems for Russia because it is preoccupied with its own problems.” You fain an ignorance of the considerable Russian investment into Ukraine in order to maintain Ukraine as a functioning state – before the US got involved in Kiev. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2013-12-17/russia-commits-15-billion-to-ukraine-bonds-as-gas-price-reduced
    There was a reason for Russians to help Ukraine before the US assets Poroschenko and Yatz have initiated (with Brennan’ blessings) the civil war in Ukraine. You are free to refute the statement that Poroschenko and Yatz have been the US assets and that Brennan (the former director of CIA) was involved in Kievan junta’ decision to attack the citizens of Ukraine in east Ukraine.
    (https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/06KIEV1706_a.html https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/456034542147895296)

    “A hostile Ukraine as a mess… punishes the West by forcing it to pay for Ukraine’s problems.” May I ask you, what event had preceded the West’ necessity “to pay for Ukraine problems?” What had Mrs. Nuland-Kagan & Mr. Pyatt been doing in Kiev during Maidan protest? Here is an answer for you: Nuland-Kagan & Pyatt were busy with bringing in the regime change to the borders of Russian federation. Please do not play an offended innocence if responding.

    “Unverified rumors of Yatseniuk’s (a Greek Catholic) possible distant Jewish heritage… What next? Measuring the length of his nose, Nazi-style?”
    You are very liberal with insulting other people when their comments address the peculiarities of your reasoning. Note that I do not care about the genetic makeup of people in the Ukrainian government; it was your statement about the ethnically “pure” new government in Kiev that caught my attention. I found it curious that you had carefully omitted the presence of such great Ukrainian patriots as the leaders of Right Sector (neo-Nazis) in the new Kiev government, as well as the involvement of Kolomojsky (triple citizenship) in the civil war on a side of Kiev and against the pro-federalist Ukrainian citizens in east Ukraine. The “trafficking” of Saakishvilli (wanted on serious charges in Georgia) to govern Odessa and Odessa region, and the installment of the fraudster Jaresko as the Minister of Finance of Ukraine (for how long had she been living in Ukraine before getting this important position in Kiev government?) do not ring well with your satisfaction that the current government of Ukraine is “more ethnic Ukrainian” than the previous one; the previous government was no more corrupt than the current “pure” government.

    http://www.voanews.com/content/two-years-after-uprising-ukraine-still-battling-corruption/3208943.html

    “Doubts about Poroshenko’s commitment to change persist. He was ranked Ukraine’s sixth-richest man in 2015 by the Novoe Vremia newspaper, with an estimated worth of $979 million. He was also the only person in the top 10 whose net worth had increased since 2014 (by 20 percent).”

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    • Replies: @AP
    I am still waiting for you to provide an example where I have denigrated the Russian people or culture, you liar who claimed I am "anti-Russian."

    this your statement requires a special attention: “A hostile Ukraine as a mess… can’t cause problems for Russia because it is preoccupied with its own problems.” You fain an ignorance of the considerable Russian investment into Ukraine in order to maintain Ukraine as a functioning state – before the US got involved in Kiev
     
    Try to think before you type.

    Was Russian aid given to hostile-to-Russia post-Revolutionary Ukraine or to friendly-towards-Russia Yanukovich-ruled Ukraine.

    Have you figured it out yet?


    it was your statement about the ethnically “pure” new government in Kiev
     
    I made no statement of ethnic purity, liar. Indeed I mocked the idea of hunting for some Jewish or Russian or Polish ancestors.

    That being said, the overthrown government of Ukraine was led by non-Ukrainians (a Ukrainian-born Russian-Belarusian president and a prime minister who was a Russian guy who moved to Ukraine when he was almost 40 years old) and was replaced by a government of actual Ukrainians. The "purity" of those Ukrainians doesn't concern me. It seems to concern you, though, since you bring it up.


    I found it curious that you had carefully omitted the presence of such great Ukrainian patriots as the leaders of Right Sector (neo-Nazis) in the new Kiev government
     
    Right sectors are fascists, not neo-Nazis. Two of its members got into parliament but if you are suggesting they are part of the ruling government (i.e, have ministerial positions) you are wrong as usual.

    Jaresko as the Minister of Finance of Ukraine (for how long had she been living in Ukraine before getting this important position in Kiev government?)
     
    Jaresco is an ethnic Ukrainian.

    Generally your posts are a waste of time, so don't expect further responses from me.

  143. @AP
    So, no denigrating comments made about the Russian people or their culture.

    Your status as a liar is confirmed.


    Here is a sampling of your attitude towards Russian federation: “So far Ukraine remains a mess economically and politically (though it is not as bad as Russians hope)…” Do you really believe that Russia needs “a mess economically and politically” on her borders?
     
    From a certain point of view, it is in Russia's interests for a Ukraine that has has turned decisively from Russia to be a mess. Better that, than an effective rival next door. A hostile Ukraine as a mess can't cause problems for Russia because it is preoccupied with its own problems, it provides "proof" of the folly of turning away from Russia, and it punishes the West by forcing it to pay for Ukraine's problems. And migrants to Russia from Ukraine help with Russia's Slavic demographics.

    Again, there is no denigration of the Russian people or its culture in my statement. You are a liar.


    I still have the same Q for your (asking it for the third time), how purebred-Ukrainians are both Poroshenko and Yatz, considering the murmurs that both of them are of Jewish stock to some degree?
     
    I have addressed the issue of the national backgrounds of Ukraine's government figures in responses to people more worthy of responses than you are.

    Unverified rumors of Yatseniuk's (a Greek Catholic) possible distant Jewish heritage, with no hard evidence, don't amount to much. What next? Measuring the length of his nose, Nazi-style? He's a a Ukrainian. Poroshenko's father was a Jewish man who converted to the Orthodox Church, and his mother was an ethnic Ukrainian. He was raised Orthodox and is a devout Orthodox Christian.

    Yateniuk and Poroshenko ultimately replaced a government whose president was Russian-Belarussian and whose Prime Minister was a Russian man who moved to Ukraine when he was nearly 40 years old.

    Hm...which government of Ukraine was more ethnic Ukrainian?

    Here is a comment by David Habakkuk (on Sic Semper Tyrannis) on the beauty of Ukrainian ethnic purity. http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2016/02/httpthesakerisrussian-mod-press-briefing-for-february-24th-2016.html#comments
    “On 2 May 2014, as anti-Maidan protestors were burned alive in the Trade Union building in Odessa, the symbolism of the ‘St. George’s Ribbon’ took centre stage. To quote a ‘New York Times’ report from two days later: ‘The conflict is hardening hearts on both sides. As the building burned, Ukrainian activists sang the Ukrainian national anthem, witnesses on both sides said. They also hurled a new taunt: ”Colorado” for the Colorado potato beetle, striped red and black like the pro-Russian ribbons. Those outside chanted ”burn Colorado, burn,” witnesses said. Swastikalike symbols were spray painted on the building, along with graffiti reading ”Galician SS,” though it was unclear when it had appeared, or who had painted it”. http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/05/world/europe/kievs-reins-weaken-as-chaos-spreads.html
    “You might also look at the Wikipedia entry on the ‘Azov Batallion’ which is described as a ‘National Guard of Ukraine regiment’. Unfortunately, there is a good deal of woffle in the entry, intended to mute the impact of the fact that its logo contains light transformations of the ‘Wolfsangel’, the symbol of the Waffen-SS Division, ‘Das Reich’, and the ‘Black Sun’ symbol. This was set into the floor of the Obergruppenführer hall” in the castle of Wewelsburg, which, to quote the relevant Wikipedia entry, became the ‘representative and the ideological center of the order of the SS.’ Shortly before the invasion of the Soviet Union, Himmler told high-ranking SS officers gathered there that its purpose was – according to a 2010 Bloomberg report entitled ‘Himmler’s Eerie Castle Explores Warped SS Ideology, Nazi Crimes’ – to ‘decimate the Slavic race by 30 million.’”
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion ; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sun_(occult_symbol) ; http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2010-04-13/himmler-s-eerie-castle-explores-warped-ss-ideology-nazi-crimes.

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  144. @annamaria
    The lady doth protest too much.

    For a person interested in the history of Eastern Europe (as you claim), this your statement requires a special attention: "A hostile Ukraine as a mess... can't cause problems for Russia because it is preoccupied with its own problems." You fain an ignorance of the considerable Russian investment into Ukraine in order to maintain Ukraine as a functioning state - before the US got involved in Kiev. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2013-12-17/russia-commits-15-billion-to-ukraine-bonds-as-gas-price-reduced
    There was a reason for Russians to help Ukraine before the US assets Poroschenko and Yatz have initiated (with Brennan' blessings) the civil war in Ukraine. You are free to refute the statement that Poroschenko and Yatz have been the US assets and that Brennan (the former director of CIA) was involved in Kievan junta' decision to attack the citizens of Ukraine in east Ukraine.
    (https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/06KIEV1706_a.html https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/456034542147895296)

    "A hostile Ukraine as a mess... punishes the West by forcing it to pay for Ukraine’s problems." May I ask you, what event had preceded the West' necessity "to pay for Ukraine problems?" What had Mrs. Nuland-Kagan & Mr. Pyatt been doing in Kiev during Maidan protest? Here is an answer for you: Nuland-Kagan & Pyatt were busy with bringing in the regime change to the borders of Russian federation. Please do not play an offended innocence if responding.

    "Unverified rumors of Yatseniuk’s (a Greek Catholic) possible distant Jewish heritage... What next? Measuring the length of his nose, Nazi-style?"
    You are very liberal with insulting other people when their comments address the peculiarities of your reasoning. Note that I do not care about the genetic makeup of people in the Ukrainian government; it was your statement about the ethnically "pure" new government in Kiev that caught my attention. I found it curious that you had carefully omitted the presence of such great Ukrainian patriots as the leaders of Right Sector (neo-Nazis) in the new Kiev government, as well as the involvement of Kolomojsky (triple citizenship) in the civil war on a side of Kiev and against the pro-federalist Ukrainian citizens in east Ukraine. The "trafficking" of Saakishvilli (wanted on serious charges in Georgia) to govern Odessa and Odessa region, and the installment of the fraudster Jaresko as the Minister of Finance of Ukraine (for how long had she been living in Ukraine before getting this important position in Kiev government?) do not ring well with your satisfaction that the current government of Ukraine is "more ethnic Ukrainian" than the previous one; the previous government was no more corrupt than the current "pure" government.
    http://www.voanews.com/content/two-years-after-uprising-ukraine-still-battling-corruption/3208943.html
    "Doubts about Poroshenko's commitment to change persist. He was ranked Ukraine's sixth-richest man in 2015 by the Novoe Vremia newspaper, with an estimated worth of $979 million. He was also the only person in the top 10 whose net worth had increased since 2014 (by 20 percent)."

    I am still waiting for you to provide an example where I have denigrated the Russian people or culture, you liar who claimed I am “anti-Russian.”

    this your statement requires a special attention: “A hostile Ukraine as a mess… can’t cause problems for Russia because it is preoccupied with its own problems.” You fain an ignorance of the considerable Russian investment into Ukraine in order to maintain Ukraine as a functioning state – before the US got involved in Kiev

    Try to think before you type.

    Was Russian aid given to hostile-to-Russia post-Revolutionary Ukraine or to friendly-towards-Russia Yanukovich-ruled Ukraine.

    Have you figured it out yet?

    it was your statement about the ethnically “pure” new government in Kiev

    I made no statement of ethnic purity, liar. Indeed I mocked the idea of hunting for some Jewish or Russian or Polish ancestors.

    That being said, the overthrown government of Ukraine was led by non-Ukrainians (a Ukrainian-born Russian-Belarusian president and a prime minister who was a Russian guy who moved to Ukraine when he was almost 40 years old) and was replaced by a government of actual Ukrainians. The “purity” of those Ukrainians doesn’t concern me. It seems to concern you, though, since you bring it up.

    I found it curious that you had carefully omitted the presence of such great Ukrainian patriots as the leaders of Right Sector (neo-Nazis) in the new Kiev government

    Right sectors are fascists, not neo-Nazis. Two of its members got into parliament but if you are suggesting they are part of the ruling government (i.e, have ministerial positions) you are wrong as usual.

    Jaresko as the Minister of Finance of Ukraine (for how long had she been living in Ukraine before getting this important position in Kiev government?)

    Jaresco is an ethnic Ukrainian.

    Generally your posts are a waste of time, so don’t expect further responses from me.

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    • Replies: @annamaria
    "I made no statement of ethnic purity..."
    "This would also have cemented his non-Ukrainian rule over Ukraine’s natives."
    "... which government of Ukraine was more ethnic Ukrainian?"
    "Jaresco is an ethnic Ukrainian."

    No wonder you are hysterical and abusive: Your posts have been saved on the comment section.

    The point of departure, AP post No 30:" It was a revolt of the natives against the immigrants and their children. Overthrown president Yanukovich was a Russian-Belarussian; Azarov was an immigrant who came to Ukraine from Russia when he was in his thirties..... But since it was in part an anti-Russian uprising (and thus supported by Western neocons) you don’t like it."

  145. @szopen
    I have a faith in Ukrainians. While until now they had absolutely the worst record with respect to the economical progress from all former communist states (maybe Moldova was worst?) there is nothing which would prevent them from building wealthy and strong state. They have rich soil, well-educated people, all necessary resources to built healthy economy.

    As for Russia "unthreatening", well, from experiences of last decades, no matter what Polish government did, whether they wre friendly or hostile to Russia, there seem to be no effect on Russian attitude to Poland. Actualy you have one troll here who openly states that Russia doesn't care about Poland and would prefer it to be radioactive wasteland. Good example are negotiations about shipping via cieśnina Pilawska - after 25 years of hearing Russian promises that this time they surely will cooperate and won't disturb traffic to Polish ports, our government finally decided enough is enough and is digging a canal.

    There is also a question of seemingly random bans on Polish exports; and history of interviews with Russian military or philosphers stating, that Russia is empire and will rebuilt its spheres of influences. Given our history with Russia, it's hard to not to be cautious about that, especially that even today it's clear that Russia divides world into great powers and everyone else, and makes no distinctions between Montenegro and Poland.

    And again, it does not mean we are hostile to Russia as a state, and especially it does not mean we are hostile to Russians. Being wary of some large guy does not mean you hate him; if you start to go to the gym, because you are a bit affraid of him, this still does not mean you hate him or that you intend to attack him. I like Russians, in fact - except for some trolls like this guy above. As long as we don't talk politics, one can find very similar soul with Russians, a refreshing honesty different from Anglo-Saxon coldness. But this does not change a bit about geopolitics. I am Polish, and I want my state to be independent, and have strong position in any possible conflict.

    I would say that from a Polish point of view, the one silver lining of all the 20th century unpleasantness is that you now have an ethno-state and can afford to no longer think of yourselves as an empire, a role you now are unable to fill. So why not take advantage of that? Russia, on the other hand, as has been proved time and again, will either be a great power or not exist at all.

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    • Replies: @szopen
    WHile you can always find Poles who dream about empires, vast majority of politicians and Poles do not want empire, while we do think that we can have strong regional position. We are too big to be delighted with a role of small state. Think about it:

    If you would have united state of all south Slavs, all former Yugoslavia+Bulgaria, the resulting state would have smaller economy than Poland and somewhat similar population.

    Or think about in UE terms: Poland is roughly equivalent to the union of Czechs+Hungary+Slovakia+Slovenia+Croatia+Lithuania+Latvia+Estonia (Poland 38mln,
    Czech 10, Hungary 10mln, SLovakia 5mln, Slovenia 2mln, Croatia 4.3 mln, Lithuania 2.8mln, Latvia 2mln, Estonia 1.3 mln - total 37.4, if I am not mistaken).

    We are the sixth state of UE in terms of population and 8th in terms of economy. Our economy is half the Russia's economy (in nominal USD, in PPP 3.5 times smaller) despite having 3.8 times smaller population and despite Russia being one of the most if not THE MOST natural-resource-rich country in the world. We are 20th economy in the world. We are not small state; far from being large state or great power, we are however still in different league than Croatia, Serbia, Bulgaria or Romania - if the Russia and Germany are 1st league, we are in the second league.
  146. I am Polish, and I want my state to be independent, and have strong position in any possible conflict.

    As we said above, your attitude is unrealistic, while respected and induces sympathy from Russia too. Just look on the map, with such size and neighbors Poland cannot be independent. Any non-Russian Poland becomes appendage of the West, hostile to Russia – that means doomed between hammer and anvil. You can change the places of hammer and anvil, but you always stay in between.

    I am not a Polonophobe, i like Zubrowka, and Sienkewicz, and the cities of Gdansk and Krakow, and many other Polish things. We would really miss Poland, when it becomes wasteland. But we would cope, if it is inevitable. To become Russians, to switch to Russian world – it is mainly for your own good. We can make good Russians even from Chinese and Arabs – but the first offer was to you.

    have strong position in any possible conflict.

    Western position of Poland is not with hammer or safe from anvil, but still in between. Even during the siege of Wienna, Poland was exploited. Why not learn from your own history?

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  147. @Cicero
    Woah, woah, woah. I'm a critic of Russophobia as strong as you'll find anywhere, but this comment is over the line.

    Poland has plenty of accomplishments under its belt from before and after the period of Partition (which was as much the fault of Prussia and Austria as it was Russia, through the latter gets most of flak for it). To claim that they have to be under the thumb of the Russians to achieve anything is absurd chest beating chauvinism at its worst. In fact, I argue that the resources the Russian Empire wasted on keeping central Poland in its domains did much to undermine the monarchy, and should have been avoided. While it is not a one-to-one comparison, Poland is the Ireland to Russia's England; no matter how similar the two nations are on the surface to outsiders, and no matter how much the latter would love to control the former, they are far too different in culture and religion to exist under direct political union. Herzen warned against the arrogant belief that Russia must dominate Poland over one hundred and fifty years ago, and it needs to be restated during this troubled era we live in.

    As for Poland's current demographics woes, it is linked to the same anomie that most European/Western nations are shackled with. If Russia dropped off the face of the Earth tomorrow, you would still have young Poles deserting their ancestral homeland to work menial jobs in the richer nations of the EU. They are doing this despite the standard of living in Poland being higher than it has ever been. That is an issue related to globalization and post-nationalist ideology that is undermining civilization as we know it. I will not claim to know how to even begin fixing it.

    To comment on Linh's essay, I think it was quite fair and gives a good depiction of what is happening in Ukraine today. He might have his political bias (as do we all), but Linh Dinh does not strike me as someone doing a hit piece on Kiev's dysfunction to serve Moscow's agenda. The issues that confront the average Ukrainian are not unlike those that his Russian cousin suffered in the late 1990's, but my guess is that there is no Putin-like figure waiting in the wings to restore order in the years ahead. The country is in serious danger of being reduced to a shattered husk that cannot function even if Washington continues to prop up the government, like many Central American nations experienced in the 80's and 90's or Libya today.

    A lot of this comes down to Ukrainian identity being forged from incompatible parts and populations of differing histories and culture. Roman Dmowski, who stood along with Pilsudski as one of the fathers of the modern Polish state wrote extensively on this from the end of WWI up until his death in 1939.

    "There is no human force capable of preventing Ukraine, once it is torn away from Russia and transformed into an independent country, from becoming a destination for con-men from all over the world who are unwelcome in their own countries, capitalists, capital-seekers, business organizers, technicians and merchants, speculators and schemers, thugs and pimps: Germans, French, Belgians, Italians and Americans would find assistance by local or nearby Russians, Poles, Armenians, Greeks, and the most numerous and important of all, the Jews. It would be a veritable League of Nations of sorts. This elemental force, with the participation of the cleverest and most business-savvy Ukrainians, will become the country's leadership elite. It would be a most remarkable elite, since no other country could boast such a rich collection of international low-life.
    Ukraine would become an abscess on Europe's body; and people who dream of establishing a cultured, healthy, and powerful Ukrainian nation that could mature in its own state would quickly realize that, instead of a state of their own they have gotten an international corporation and instead of healthy development only rapidly progressing rot and decay.

    Those who believe that, given Ukraine's geographic location, its size, and the state of the Ukrainian element, its spiritual and material resources, and the role the Ukrainian question plays in the global economy and politics, it could be otherwise has no imagination whatsoever.

    The Ukrainian question has various promoters, both in Ukraine and abroad. There are many among the latter who know perfectly well what they are aiming at. But they are also those who view the question of tearing Ukraine away from Russia in a most optimistic manner. Those naive ones would be best served by keeping their hands off Ukraine."
     
    Roman Dmowski,
    Post-War World and Poland (1931)


    More here: http://www.theimaginativeconservative.org/2014/07/ukraine-question-1930-part.html

    This Dmowski guy view on Ukraine

    “There is no human force capable of preventing Ukraine, once it is torn away from Russia and transformed into an independent country, from becoming a destination for con-men from all over the world ”

    reminds me of Hitler’s vision on the future Jewish state:

    “It doesn’t even enter their heads to build up a Jewish state in Palestine for the purpose of living there; all they want is a central organization for their international world swindle, endowed with its own sovereign rights and removed from the intervention of other states: a haven for convicted scoundrels and a university for budding crooks.”

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    • Replies: @Seamus Padraig
    Wow! Thanks for Hitler quote. I am very far from being a Nazi sympathizer, but I can definitely concede that Hitler saw exactly where Zionism was leading. Here's the expanded version I found on line:

    “While the Zionists try to make the rest of the World believe that the national consciousness of the Jew finds its satisfaction in the creation of a Palestinian state, the Jews again slyly dupe the dumb Goyim. It doesn't even enter their heads to build up a Jewish state in Palestine for the purpose of living there; all they want is a central organisation for their international world swindler, endowed with its own sovereign rights and removed from the intervention of other states: a haven for convicted scoundrels and a university for budding crooks.
    It is a sign of their rising confidence and sense of security that at a time when one section is still playing the German, French-man, or Englishman, the other with open effrontery comes out as the Jewish race.” Mein Kampf
     

    https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/342153-while-the-zionists-try-to-make-the-rest-of-the
  148. @AP

    No, a lot worse:

    Ukraine’s economy shrank by 6.8% in 2014,[18] and this continued with a 12% decline in GDP in 2015.[19]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Ukraine
     

    Wikipedia numbers actually vary depending on source:

    "Due to the War in Donbass[nb 1] Ukraine's economy shrank by 6.8% in 2014;[16] it had been expected to decline by 8%.[18] The early 2014 annexation of Crimea by Russia also contributed to this shrank.[16] A Ukrainian Government report stated early February 2016 that Ukraine's economy had shrank by 10.4% in 2015.[44] For 2015 a further decline of 11.6% had been expected by the National Bank of Ukraine and a 12% shrank according to the World Bank.[19]The World Bank forecasts a growth of 1% in 2016."

    Unless you have data by oblast for 2015, you can't speculate whether every oblast did worse in 2015. We do know, however, that 5 oblasts had growing economies in 2014.


    More like, Poland returned to its natural place in Europe, as Ukraine is doing now.

    What’s that supposed to mean?
     

    Europeans prefer to be linked to Europe rather than to Eurasia, or Africa, or other non-European place. Is that difficult to understand?

    Ukraine spent more time as part of Poland/Lithuania than as part of Russia.

    Only the western part, over 200 years ago. And the Poles and Ukrainians ended up hating each other so much that the state ceased to function.
     

    Different parts of Ukraine was absorbed by Russia at different times. The Left Bank (east of the Dnipro River) became an autonomous part of Russia in c. 1650, after 300 years as part of Lithuania or Poland. It wasn't fully absorbed by Russia until the late 18th century. As such, Polish and Latin remained the language of the local elite for another century at least. The Orthodox Kiev Academy taught in those languages, for example.

    The Right Bank joined Russia about 150 years later. So it spent about 450 years as part of Lithuania or Poland, 120 as Russia and then 70 as the USSR.

    Galicia was part of Poland or Austria for over 600 years and part of the USSR for 50 years. Other than a few months in 1915, it was never part of Russia.

    Southern Ukraine was settled mostly by people moving south from the Right Bank. That is, by people whose culture developed under Poland centuries longer than under Russia. But they mixed there with Russian settlers, so the region is not as unambiguously Ukrainian as the ethnic Ukrainian heartland to its north.


    A good indicator [of who is ethnic Ukrainian] would be people who consider Ukrainian to be their native language.

    Fact: There was no Ukrainian alphabet until Austrian rule, when the invention of a Ukrainian identity served the purposes of their rulers. Ukrainian” is a dialect of Russian. There is high mutual intelligibility between the Ukrainian and other Russian dialects.
     

    Fact: the Ukrainian language has more words in common with Polish than it does with Russian. This is due to the extensive centuries-long Polish influence on Ukraine, whose impact is comparable to that of the Norman French rulers on the English language. This makes the relationship between the Ukrainian and Russian languages different from that of, say, Bavarian and High German (or even Dutch and German, or Swedish and Danish). Here is a map of lexical differences among European languages:

    https://elms.wordpress.com/2008/03/04/lexical-distance-among-languages-of-europe/

    German and Dutch, Czech and Slovak, Swedish and Danish, and Portuguese and Spanish are closer than Russian and Ukrainian.

    In your world is there no Dutch language - it is a German dialect? No Portuguese? No Slovak?

    As in your claim of 5 billion spent to overthrow Yanukovich, it appears we are in the world of Russian fantasies.


    The country’s natives revolted [against Yakunovich].

    Some of them, and the western Ukraine (former Austria-Hungary) was disproportionately represented in the revolt
     

    The country's west and center revolted. These are the most ethnic Ukrainian regions. While the Galicians were indeed over-represented they were not the majority of those in revolt in Kiev, in the country's center, where the government fell.

    The country’s west and center revolted. These are the most ethnic Ukrainian regions. While the Galicians were indeed over-represented they were not the majority of those in revolt in Kiev, in the country’s center, where the government fell.

    Good of you to admit that the revolt was largely carried out by the Polonized-Austrianized cultural group centered on the right bank. It illustrates quite nicely the folly of claiming that they represent the interests of Ukraine as a whole. If you want a Ukrainian state centered on the interests that group you call “ethnic Ukrainians,” it’s a formula for splitting Ukraine and leaving landlocked rump state in the north and west of the Ukraine. It would most likely be an agricultural colony for western Europe, much like Galicia was under Austria-Hungary, but it would be your ethnically pure paradise.

    Southern Ukraine was settled mostly by people moving south from the Right Bank. That is, by people whose culture developed under Poland centuries longer than under Russia.

    The Azov/Black Sea region was settled by Tatars, Turks, Bulgars, and Greeks, then Russians. It has remained a majority Russian-speaking region. It was never predominantly Polonized, or “ethnic” Ukrainian.

    As in your claim of 5 billion spent to overthrow Yanukovich, it appears we are in the world of Russian fantasies.

    I guess Victoria Nudelman lives in the world of Russian fantasies then.

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    • Replies: @AP

    Good of you to admit that the revolt was largely carried out by the Polonized-Austrianized cultural group centered on the right bank.
     
    While these were the regions actively taking part in the revolt, other regions weren't necessarily opposed to it. Large-scale opposition was largely in Donbas and Crimea.

    If you want a Ukrainian state centered on the interests that group you call “ethnic Ukrainians,” it’s a formula for splitting Ukraine and leaving landlocked rump state in the north and west of the Ukraine.
     
    While the Ukrainian heartland is in the center and west, areas of Ukrainian settlement stretch down to the Black Sea.

    It would most likely be an agricultural colony for western Europe, much like Galicia was under Austria-Hungary, but it would be your ethnically pure paradise.
     
    Lviv and Kiev are major IT centers:

    http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/new-atlanticist/ukraine-s-booming-tech-sector-gets-international-attention-despite-war

    The combination of agriculture and high tech makes central/western Ukraine looks more like an emergent Minnesota rather than, say, an emergent North Dakota.

    Southern Ukraine was settled mostly by people moving south from the Right Bank. That is, by people whose culture developed under Poland centuries longer than under Russia.

    The Azov/Black Sea region was settled by Tatars, Turks, Bulgars, and Greeks, then Russians. It has remained a majority Russian-speaking region. It was never predominantly Polonized, or “ethnic” Ukrainian.
     
    I like Russian fairytales; one of my favorites is Xозяйка Медной горы. Your fairy tale about southern Ukraine (so-called New Russia) being populated by mostly Russians is rather banal, however.

    Here are the 1897 Russian census results:

    http://demoscope.ru/weekly/ssp/rus_rel_97.php?reg=0

    Wiki offers breakdowns by provinces and counties.

    Yekaterynoslav governate, which includes modern Dnipropetrovsk, and parts of the DOnbas was 70% Ukrainian. Every povit (county) has a Ukrainian majority, other than Mariupol which had a Ukrainian plurality (it was 46% Ukrainian, 19% Greek, 14% Russian) (the town of Mariupol itself had a Russian majority).

    Kherson governate included Odessa and part of the Black Sea coast. It was 53.5% Ukrainian, 21% Russian, 11.8% Jewish. 5.4% Romanian. The city of Odessa was 49.1% Russian, 30.8% Jewish, and 9.4% Ukrainian but beyond the city the Ukrainian majority was fairly healthy.

    Taurida governate included Crimea and the rest of modern Ukraine's Black Sea coast. It was 42.2% Ukrainian, 27.9% Russian, 13.6% Tatar. Breaking it down by county, Ukrainians were a small minority in Crimea but the three counties on the Ukrainian mainland had Ukrainian majorities ranging from 54.9% to 73.4%.

    So, in summary: from the time of post-Tatar European settlement these areas always had healthy Ukrainian majorities.

    It is true that these areas were more Russian and were not as Ukrainian as the Ukrainian heartland - Kiev governate, for example, was 79.2% Ukrainian, 12.1% Jewish and 5.9% Russian - but they were still majority Ukrainian and settled mostly by Ukrainians moving south from their heartland.

    As in your claim of 5 billion spent to overthrow Yanukovich, it appears we are in the world of Russian fantasies.

    I guess Victoria Nudelman lives in the world of Russian fantasies then.
     
    No, because she spoke of all the money Ukraine got since independence. Your claim that the 5 billion was spent on the Maidan revolution is the fantasy. But as we have seen, you love your fairy-tales and believe in them.
  149. @5371
    I would say that from a Polish point of view, the one silver lining of all the 20th century unpleasantness is that you now have an ethno-state and can afford to no longer think of yourselves as an empire, a role you now are unable to fill. So why not take advantage of that? Russia, on the other hand, as has been proved time and again, will either be a great power or not exist at all.

    WHile you can always find Poles who dream about empires, vast majority of politicians and Poles do not want empire, while we do think that we can have strong regional position. We are too big to be delighted with a role of small state. Think about it:

    If you would have united state of all south Slavs, all former Yugoslavia+Bulgaria, the resulting state would have smaller economy than Poland and somewhat similar population.

    Or think about in UE terms: Poland is roughly equivalent to the union of Czechs+Hungary+Slovakia+Slovenia+Croatia+Lithuania+Latvia+Estonia (Poland 38mln,
    Czech 10, Hungary 10mln, SLovakia 5mln, Slovenia 2mln, Croatia 4.3 mln, Lithuania 2.8mln, Latvia 2mln, Estonia 1.3 mln – total 37.4, if I am not mistaken).

    We are the sixth state of UE in terms of population and 8th in terms of economy. Our economy is half the Russia’s economy (in nominal USD, in PPP 3.5 times smaller) despite having 3.8 times smaller population and despite Russia being one of the most if not THE MOST natural-resource-rich country in the world. We are 20th economy in the world. We are not small state; far from being large state or great power, we are however still in different league than Croatia, Serbia, Bulgaria or Romania – if the Russia and Germany are 1st league, we are in the second league.

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  150. Damn, I was googling some facts and it seems that nowadays Poland exports more food than Russia… How’s that possible?

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  151. @utu
    This Dmowski guy view on Ukraine

    "There is no human force capable of preventing Ukraine, once it is torn away from Russia and transformed into an independent country, from becoming a destination for con-men from all over the world "

    reminds me of Hitler's vision on the future Jewish state:

    "It doesn't even enter their heads to build up a Jewish state in Palestine for the purpose of living there; all they want is a central organization for their international world swindle, endowed with its own sovereign rights and removed from the intervention of other states: a haven for convicted scoundrels and a university for budding crooks."

    Wow! Thanks for Hitler quote. I am very far from being a Nazi sympathizer, but I can definitely concede that Hitler saw exactly where Zionism was leading. Here’s the expanded version I found on line:

    “While the Zionists try to make the rest of the World believe that the national consciousness of the Jew finds its satisfaction in the creation of a Palestinian state, the Jews again slyly dupe the dumb Goyim. It doesn’t even enter their heads to build up a Jewish state in Palestine for the purpose of living there; all they want is a central organisation for their international world swindler, endowed with its own sovereign rights and removed from the intervention of other states: a haven for convicted scoundrels and a university for budding crooks.
    It is a sign of their rising confidence and sense of security that at a time when one section is still playing the German, French-man, or Englishman, the other with open effrontery comes out as the Jewish race.” Mein Kampf

    https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/342153-while-the-zionists-try-to-make-the-rest-of-the

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  152. @szopen
    Ukraine is of vital importance to Poland. Independent Ukraine is much better from out point of view than Ukraine incorporated into Russia or as Russia's satellite.

    Why not divvy up Ukraine with Russia then? If Poland were to take over Galicia and Russia were to take over Novorossiya, that would solve a lot of problems.

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    • Replies: @AP
    Or divvy up Russia between the EU and China? That would solve a lot of "problems."

    Beyond Donbas, "Novorossiya" doesn't want to join Russia, and while Poland is the most liked country in the world according to Ukrainians they don't want to be annexed by it. Last time Poland tried to keep Galicia things ended up badly.
  153. Poland is roughly equivalent to the union of

    Poland is unfortunately not respected as major country and inside EU politically stands behind Belgium, Luxembourg etc. Polish citizens are considered second-rate europeans and may stay as such forever. Every Pole gives 50% of his product to serve the debt. There is no world-renowned Polish brands or industries. Most industries in Poland belong to foreigners, even to Ukrainians. As a professional, I usually attend world and european international congresses, where Poles are represented, but not respected – they seldomly chair important sessions or are allowed to form significant committees, while conspiring actively to get there. Germans and Englishmen seem not to take them seriously. I can understand their feelings, but not their illusions of being part of the West.

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  154. @AP
    I am still waiting for you to provide an example where I have denigrated the Russian people or culture, you liar who claimed I am "anti-Russian."

    this your statement requires a special attention: “A hostile Ukraine as a mess… can’t cause problems for Russia because it is preoccupied with its own problems.” You fain an ignorance of the considerable Russian investment into Ukraine in order to maintain Ukraine as a functioning state – before the US got involved in Kiev
     
    Try to think before you type.

    Was Russian aid given to hostile-to-Russia post-Revolutionary Ukraine or to friendly-towards-Russia Yanukovich-ruled Ukraine.

    Have you figured it out yet?


    it was your statement about the ethnically “pure” new government in Kiev
     
    I made no statement of ethnic purity, liar. Indeed I mocked the idea of hunting for some Jewish or Russian or Polish ancestors.

    That being said, the overthrown government of Ukraine was led by non-Ukrainians (a Ukrainian-born Russian-Belarusian president and a prime minister who was a Russian guy who moved to Ukraine when he was almost 40 years old) and was replaced by a government of actual Ukrainians. The "purity" of those Ukrainians doesn't concern me. It seems to concern you, though, since you bring it up.


    I found it curious that you had carefully omitted the presence of such great Ukrainian patriots as the leaders of Right Sector (neo-Nazis) in the new Kiev government
     
    Right sectors are fascists, not neo-Nazis. Two of its members got into parliament but if you are suggesting they are part of the ruling government (i.e, have ministerial positions) you are wrong as usual.

    Jaresko as the Minister of Finance of Ukraine (for how long had she been living in Ukraine before getting this important position in Kiev government?)
     
    Jaresco is an ethnic Ukrainian.

    Generally your posts are a waste of time, so don't expect further responses from me.

    “I made no statement of ethnic purity…”
    “This would also have cemented his non-Ukrainian rule over Ukraine’s natives.”
    “… which government of Ukraine was more ethnic Ukrainian?”
    “Jaresco is an ethnic Ukrainian.”

    No wonder you are hysterical and abusive: Your posts have been saved on the comment section.

    The point of departure, AP post No 30:” It was a revolt of the natives against the immigrants and their children. Overthrown president Yanukovich was a Russian-Belarussian; Azarov was an immigrant who came to Ukraine from Russia when he was in his thirties….. But since it was in part an anti-Russian uprising (and thus supported by Western neocons) you don’t like it.”

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  155. @Thirdeye

    The country’s west and center revolted. These are the most ethnic Ukrainian regions. While the Galicians were indeed over-represented they were not the majority of those in revolt in Kiev, in the country’s center, where the government fell.
     
    Good of you to admit that the revolt was largely carried out by the Polonized-Austrianized cultural group centered on the right bank. It illustrates quite nicely the folly of claiming that they represent the interests of Ukraine as a whole. If you want a Ukrainian state centered on the interests that group you call "ethnic Ukrainians," it's a formula for splitting Ukraine and leaving landlocked rump state in the north and west of the Ukraine. It would most likely be an agricultural colony for western Europe, much like Galicia was under Austria-Hungary, but it would be your ethnically pure paradise.

    Southern Ukraine was settled mostly by people moving south from the Right Bank. That is, by people whose culture developed under Poland centuries longer than under Russia.
     
    The Azov/Black Sea region was settled by Tatars, Turks, Bulgars, and Greeks, then Russians. It has remained a majority Russian-speaking region. It was never predominantly Polonized, or "ethnic" Ukrainian.

    As in your claim of 5 billion spent to overthrow Yanukovich, it appears we are in the world of Russian fantasies.
     
    I guess Victoria Nudelman lives in the world of Russian fantasies then.

    Good of you to admit that the revolt was largely carried out by the Polonized-Austrianized cultural group centered on the right bank.

    While these were the regions actively taking part in the revolt, other regions weren’t necessarily opposed to it. Large-scale opposition was largely in Donbas and Crimea.

    If you want a Ukrainian state centered on the interests that group you call “ethnic Ukrainians,” it’s a formula for splitting Ukraine and leaving landlocked rump state in the north and west of the Ukraine.

    While the Ukrainian heartland is in the center and west, areas of Ukrainian settlement stretch down to the Black Sea.

    It would most likely be an agricultural colony for western Europe, much like Galicia was under Austria-Hungary, but it would be your ethnically pure paradise.

    Lviv and Kiev are major IT centers:

    http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/new-atlanticist/ukraine-s-booming-tech-sector-gets-international-attention-despite-war

    The combination of agriculture and high tech makes central/western Ukraine looks more like an emergent Minnesota rather than, say, an emergent North Dakota.

    Southern Ukraine was settled mostly by people moving south from the Right Bank. That is, by people whose culture developed under Poland centuries longer than under Russia.

    The Azov/Black Sea region was settled by Tatars, Turks, Bulgars, and Greeks, then Russians. It has remained a majority Russian-speaking region. It was never predominantly Polonized, or “ethnic” Ukrainian.

    I like Russian fairytales; one of my favorites is Xозяйка Медной горы. Your fairy tale about southern Ukraine (so-called New Russia) being populated by mostly Russians is rather banal, however.

    Here are the 1897 Russian census results:

    http://demoscope.ru/weekly/ssp/rus_rel_97.php?reg=0

    Wiki offers breakdowns by provinces and counties.

    Yekaterynoslav governate, which includes modern Dnipropetrovsk, and parts of the DOnbas was 70% Ukrainian. Every povit (county) has a Ukrainian majority, other than Mariupol which had a Ukrainian plurality (it was 46% Ukrainian, 19% Greek, 14% Russian) (the town of Mariupol itself had a Russian majority).

    Kherson governate included Odessa and part of the Black Sea coast. It was 53.5% Ukrainian, 21% Russian, 11.8% Jewish. 5.4% Romanian. The city of Odessa was 49.1% Russian, 30.8% Jewish, and 9.4% Ukrainian but beyond the city the Ukrainian majority was fairly healthy.

    Taurida governate included Crimea and the rest of modern Ukraine’s Black Sea coast. It was 42.2% Ukrainian, 27.9% Russian, 13.6% Tatar. Breaking it down by county, Ukrainians were a small minority in Crimea but the three counties on the Ukrainian mainland had Ukrainian majorities ranging from 54.9% to 73.4%.

    So, in summary: from the time of post-Tatar European settlement these areas always had healthy Ukrainian majorities.

    It is true that these areas were more Russian and were not as Ukrainian as the Ukrainian heartland – Kiev governate, for example, was 79.2% Ukrainian, 12.1% Jewish and 5.9% Russian – but they were still majority Ukrainian and settled mostly by Ukrainians moving south from their heartland.

    As in your claim of 5 billion spent to overthrow Yanukovich, it appears we are in the world of Russian fantasies.

    I guess Victoria Nudelman lives in the world of Russian fantasies then.

    No, because she spoke of all the money Ukraine got since independence. Your claim that the 5 billion was spent on the Maidan revolution is the fantasy. But as we have seen, you love your fairy-tales and believe in them.

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    • Replies: @5371
    [Lviv and Kiev are major IT centers:

    http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/new-atlanticist/ukraine-s-booming-tech-sector-gets-international-attention-despite-war ]

    Like Dmowski said, the natural home of the con man. Which explains you.

    [central/western Ukraine looks more like an emergent Minnesota]

    A country with less than one car sold a year per thousand population? Thanks for the laugh.

  156. @Seamus Padraig
    Why not divvy up Ukraine with Russia then? If Poland were to take over Galicia and Russia were to take over Novorossiya, that would solve a lot of problems.

    Or divvy up Russia between the EU and China? That would solve a lot of “problems.”

    Beyond Donbas, “Novorossiya” doesn’t want to join Russia, and while Poland is the most liked country in the world according to Ukrainians they don’t want to be annexed by it. Last time Poland tried to keep Galicia things ended up badly.

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    • Replies: @Seamus Padraig

    Or divvy up Russia between the EU and China? That would solve a lot of “problems.”
     
    That's what the neocons wanted back in the 90s, but they've failed. Putin foiled their plot and saved Russia. Now it's the EU that's set to fall apart.
  157. @AP

    Good of you to admit that the revolt was largely carried out by the Polonized-Austrianized cultural group centered on the right bank.
     
    While these were the regions actively taking part in the revolt, other regions weren't necessarily opposed to it. Large-scale opposition was largely in Donbas and Crimea.

    If you want a Ukrainian state centered on the interests that group you call “ethnic Ukrainians,” it’s a formula for splitting Ukraine and leaving landlocked rump state in the north and west of the Ukraine.
     
    While the Ukrainian heartland is in the center and west, areas of Ukrainian settlement stretch down to the Black Sea.

    It would most likely be an agricultural colony for western Europe, much like Galicia was under Austria-Hungary, but it would be your ethnically pure paradise.
     
    Lviv and Kiev are major IT centers:

    http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/new-atlanticist/ukraine-s-booming-tech-sector-gets-international-attention-despite-war

    The combination of agriculture and high tech makes central/western Ukraine looks more like an emergent Minnesota rather than, say, an emergent North Dakota.

    Southern Ukraine was settled mostly by people moving south from the Right Bank. That is, by people whose culture developed under Poland centuries longer than under Russia.

    The Azov/Black Sea region was settled by Tatars, Turks, Bulgars, and Greeks, then Russians. It has remained a majority Russian-speaking region. It was never predominantly Polonized, or “ethnic” Ukrainian.
     
    I like Russian fairytales; one of my favorites is Xозяйка Медной горы. Your fairy tale about southern Ukraine (so-called New Russia) being populated by mostly Russians is rather banal, however.

    Here are the 1897 Russian census results:

    http://demoscope.ru/weekly/ssp/rus_rel_97.php?reg=0

    Wiki offers breakdowns by provinces and counties.

    Yekaterynoslav governate, which includes modern Dnipropetrovsk, and parts of the DOnbas was 70% Ukrainian. Every povit (county) has a Ukrainian majority, other than Mariupol which had a Ukrainian plurality (it was 46% Ukrainian, 19% Greek, 14% Russian) (the town of Mariupol itself had a Russian majority).

    Kherson governate included Odessa and part of the Black Sea coast. It was 53.5% Ukrainian, 21% Russian, 11.8% Jewish. 5.4% Romanian. The city of Odessa was 49.1% Russian, 30.8% Jewish, and 9.4% Ukrainian but beyond the city the Ukrainian majority was fairly healthy.

    Taurida governate included Crimea and the rest of modern Ukraine's Black Sea coast. It was 42.2% Ukrainian, 27.9% Russian, 13.6% Tatar. Breaking it down by county, Ukrainians were a small minority in Crimea but the three counties on the Ukrainian mainland had Ukrainian majorities ranging from 54.9% to 73.4%.

    So, in summary: from the time of post-Tatar European settlement these areas always had healthy Ukrainian majorities.

    It is true that these areas were more Russian and were not as Ukrainian as the Ukrainian heartland - Kiev governate, for example, was 79.2% Ukrainian, 12.1% Jewish and 5.9% Russian - but they were still majority Ukrainian and settled mostly by Ukrainians moving south from their heartland.

    As in your claim of 5 billion spent to overthrow Yanukovich, it appears we are in the world of Russian fantasies.

    I guess Victoria Nudelman lives in the world of Russian fantasies then.
     
    No, because she spoke of all the money Ukraine got since independence. Your claim that the 5 billion was spent on the Maidan revolution is the fantasy. But as we have seen, you love your fairy-tales and believe in them.

    [Lviv and Kiev are major IT centers:

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    • Replies: @AP

    [Lviv and Kiev are major IT centers:

    http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/new-atlanticist/ukraine-s-booming-tech-sector-gets-international-attention-despite-war ]

    Like Dmowski said, the natural home of the con man.
     
    You prefer, Sovok-style, tractor factories to IT? Ukraine's IT exports, based mostly in Kiev and Lviv, showed 10% growth in 2015, accounting for 2.4 billion dollars.

    [central/western Ukraine looks more like an emergent Minnesota] A country with less than one car sold a year per thousand population? Thanks for the laugh.
     
    This was new cars sold rather than all cars sold, liar.

    Collapse of the currency's value makes expensive foreign made products uniquely inaccessible. Suddenly paying 4 times more for Italian shoes is possible, but four times more for a Ford, not so much. So what?

    Of course, inability to buy foreign cars has little to do with whether or not a region is becoming a center of agriculture and high tech.

    Incidentally, Minnesota-based Cargill is investing in a huge expansion of grain terminal outside Odessa:

    http://www.agprofessional.com/news/cargill-joint-venture-build-grain-terminal-ukraine
  158. @Rehmat
    On Sunday, Muslim Crimean Tatar singer Susana Jamaldinova , known as Jamala, won the contest to represent Ukraine at the 2016 Eurovision Song Contest in Stockholm, Sweden. She sang song 1944 in the contest written and composed by herself. The song is about the plight of 238,000 Muslim Crimean Tartars expelled from their home in Southern Ukraine by Russian mass-killer Josef Stalin. Nearly 50% of them died during deportation. Today, Crimea is mostly populated by ethnic Russian Christians and Jews.

    On February 22, Vadim Dengin, first deputy chairman of the committee of Duma (Russian parliament) urged the jury of Eurovision to ban Jamaldinova from singing the 1944 song, which highlights deportation of her grandmother along with her four sons and one daughter. It’s not a political parody against Russia. The song opens with lyrics; When strangers are coming. They come to your house, they kill you all and say: ‘We are not guilty, not guilty. Listen the song below.

    https://rehmat1.com/2016/02/23/muslim-singer-represents-ukraine-at-eurovision-2016/

    The Russians and Ukrainians would have been wise to eradicate the Tatars — which is precisely what the Tatars would and will do when they have the numbers — forget about letting them return.

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  159. @5371
    [Lviv and Kiev are major IT centers:

    http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/new-atlanticist/ukraine-s-booming-tech-sector-gets-international-attention-despite-war ]

    Like Dmowski said, the natural home of the con man. Which explains you.

    [central/western Ukraine looks more like an emergent Minnesota]

    A country with less than one car sold a year per thousand population? Thanks for the laugh.

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  160. @AP
    Or divvy up Russia between the EU and China? That would solve a lot of "problems."

    Beyond Donbas, "Novorossiya" doesn't want to join Russia, and while Poland is the most liked country in the world according to Ukrainians they don't want to be annexed by it. Last time Poland tried to keep Galicia things ended up badly.

    Or divvy up Russia between the EU and China? That would solve a lot of “problems.”

    That’s what the neocons wanted back in the 90s, but they’ve failed. Putin foiled their plot and saved Russia. Now it’s the EU that’s set to fall apart.

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  161. [This was new cars sold rather than all cars sold, liar.]

    I don’t think you actually know what the word “liar” means, moron. Which would explain why you don’t notice how perfectly its real meaning is embodied by yourself.

    [becoming a center of agriculture and high tech]

    Otherwise known as 1. still occupying the fertile soil which was cultivated more effectively under every previous regime, and 2. playing host to a gang of bullshitters and hucksters who live by petty fraud. Like you.

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  162. I don’t think you actually know what the word “liar” means, moron. Which would explain why you don’t notice how perfectly its real meaning is embodied by yourself

    (yawn) Another lie by 5371. Almost every one of his posts is deceitful. This is 5371′s essence. See below for an example:

    [becoming a center of agriculture and high tech]

    Otherwise known as 1. still occupying the fertile soil which was cultivated more effectively under every previous regime, and 2. playing host to a gang of bullshitters and hucksters who live by petty fraud. Like you.

    1. Ukraine had a record high grain harvest in 2014. Trends have been upward in Ukraine since 2004:

    http://i.tyzhden.ua/Book-8-18.jpg

    There’s a reason why Cargill is investing $100 million in a grain terminal on Ukraine’s Black Sea.

    So, no surprise, yet another lie from 5371.

    2. So, the resident liar claims the IT industry is “a gang of bullshitters and hucksters who live by petty fraud.” Didn’t our host Ron Unz start off making software?

    The question is at what point in this discussion 5371 will give up on making statements involving verifiable “facts” (his “facts” are almost always proven to be lies, see above) and just switch to pure insults. It’s probably an inevitable process.

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    • Replies: @5371
    You are Burkina Faso without rockets but with crooks.
  163. @AP

    I don’t think you actually know what the word “liar” means, moron. Which would explain why you don’t notice how perfectly its real meaning is embodied by yourself
     
    (yawn) Another lie by 5371. Almost every one of his posts is deceitful. This is 5371's essence. See below for an example:

    [becoming a center of agriculture and high tech]

    Otherwise known as 1. still occupying the fertile soil which was cultivated more effectively under every previous regime, and 2. playing host to a gang of bullshitters and hucksters who live by petty fraud. Like you.
     
    1. Ukraine had a record high grain harvest in 2014. Trends have been upward in Ukraine since 2004:

    http://i.tyzhden.ua/Book-8-18.jpg

    There's a reason why Cargill is investing $100 million in a grain terminal on Ukraine's Black Sea.

    So, no surprise, yet another lie from 5371.

    2. So, the resident liar claims the IT industry is "a gang of bullshitters and hucksters who live by petty fraud." Didn't our host Ron Unz start off making software?

    The question is at what point in this discussion 5371 will give up on making statements involving verifiable "facts" (his "facts" are almost always proven to be lies, see above) and just switch to pure insults. It's probably an inevitable process.

    You are Burkina Faso without rockets but with crooks.

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    • Replies: @annamaria
    The AP has presented a graph issued by Ukrainian State Statistics Bureau, to prove his point that Ukraine shows signs of recovery thanks to new governing body. Here is a more detailed assessment of Ukrainian economy by FocusEconomics: http://www.focus-economics.com/countries/ukraine
  164. […] of Dignity” fails to meet Ukrainians’ expectations. 40. The Unz Review: Linh Dinh, Broken Ukraine. 41. http://gordonhahn.com: Gordon Hahn, February 20, 2014 ‘Snipers’ Massacre’: […]

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  165. @5371
    You are Burkina Faso without rockets but with crooks.

    The AP has presented a graph issued by Ukrainian State Statistics Bureau, to prove his point that Ukraine shows signs of recovery thanks to new governing body. Here is a more detailed assessment of Ukrainian economy by FocusEconomics: http://www.focus-economics.com/countries/ukraine

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  166. It is a small issue that does not directly concern the article but I could not help commenting. I wonder when people will stop calling Jewish Americans, whose ancestors happened to immigrate to the US from the Russian Empire or the ex-USSR, “Russian by blood”. It is as ridiculous as calling Maghrebi and Middle Eastern Jews “Arabian by blood”.

    I understand that the author wanted some paradoxical conflict stating that a “half-Russian” American is against Russia. But it is not true and does not seem legit. No less than 2/3 of so called “Russian Americans” are, in fact, Jewish. “Jewish Americans hate Russia” sounds legit, “Russian Americans hate Russia” doesn’t.

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  167. @AP

    If it was against migrants, why do you have a migrants as finance minister and governor of your largest province?
     
    The finance minister is a Ukrainian-American who grew up speaking Ukrainian, attending Ukrainian-language Saturday schools in Chicago, serving in Ukrainian youth groups, etc.

    Governor of one province is not as extensive of foreign influence as Prime minister of the entire country.

    The ethnic Armenian minister of the interior was about 2 years old when his family moved to Ukraine.

    The overthrown government was dominated by people from a mixed-ethnicity border region. Its president was a non ethnic-Ukrainian (Russian-Belarussian) Yanukovich, its prime minister Azarov was a Russian immigrant who came to Ukraine when he was in his late thirties, its defense minister Lebedev was another Russian immigrant, who came to Ukraine when he was in his twenties.

    The regions involved in the revolt, in the center and west, are the ones with the highest % of ethnic Ukrainians. The people were taking back their own state.

    If America were faced with a similar situation - say, ruled by a group pf Mexicans from southern California and Mexican immigrants - and the midwestern and northern natives revolted, you would be cheering.


    Kyiv and the capital region are a parasite.
     
    Western agricultural regions also had economic growth in 2014. 7.6% growth in GRP in Vynnytsia oblast, for example.

    The regions involved in the revolt, in the center and west, are the ones with the highest % of ethnic Ukrainians. The people were taking back their own state.

    In the half of Ukraine, that comprise the eastern and southern regions, ethnic Ukrainians (whatever you define them) are immigrants themselves as much as any other people from other ethnic backgrounds. It is just a historical fact. Most of the territory became open to immigration only due to the Russian victory over Crimean Tatars and the Ottoman empire (which today Ukraine likes very much). And the immigration was never been marked as “for purebred Ukrainian only”, but has been open for everybody. So it would not be so surprising if the people of Lviv, Ternopil or whatever in the western part took control of their regions, but it’s out of understanding why they think the other part of Ukraine belongs only to them, “true” purebred Ukrainians from Western Ukraine. It is more like an occupation.

    If America were faced with a similar situation – say, ruled by a group pf Mexicans from southern California and Mexican immigrants – and the midwestern and northern natives revolted, you would be cheering.

    Given your examples, it is as if in the USA the power were seized by “true American” White Power supremacists that believe that the Southwestern US belong “more” to WASPs than to Mexican Americans and Mexicans should either obey to the White Power rule or get out back to Mexico.

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  168. It was a fun read, since I’m ukrainian. A very small minority of people here would blame “Big Sam” on their misfortune. Failing countries usually blame the others, ones who succeed – praise themselves. Even with poor people everywhere, it’s better than Soviet times.

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