The Unz Review - Mobile
A Collection of Interesting, Important, and Controversial Perspectives Largely Excluded from the American Mainstream Media
 BlogviewJames Thompson Archive
The World's IQ = 86
Test results of 550,492 individuals in 123 countries
🔊 Listen RSS
Email This Page to Someone

 Remember My Information



=>

Bookmark Toggle AllToCAdd to LibraryRemove from Library • BShow CommentNext New CommentNext New ReplyRead More
ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
AgreeDisagreeLOLTroll
These buttons register your public Agreement, Disagreement, Troll, or LOL with the selected comment. They are ONLY available to recent, frequent commenters who have saved their Name+Email using the 'Remember My Information' checkbox, and may also ONLY be used once per hour.
Ignore Commenter Follow Commenter
Search Text Case Sensitive  Exact Words  Include Comments
List of Bookmarks

CHILD-EXAMS-head in hands

Few subjects arouse as much ire as national IQs. Questions are asked about the cultural appropriateness of the tests, whether they have sufficient scope to assess the different talents of racial and cultural groups, the representativeness and size of the samples, and even whether those results are reported correctly.

National scholastic achievements, on the other hand, are greeted with widespread publicity, discussed anxiously in government and educational circles, and sometimes rather naively accepted as an unerring measure of a nation’s educational system. In some ways this is understandable, because PISA and similar studies are well-funded, are global in scope, and repeated at regular intervals, allowing progress to be monitored. Yes, every test can be gamed, and national results vary considerably in coverage, representativeness, and probably also in levels of cheating. However, these are matters for the sort of people who read the supplementary annexes, and persons of that sort cannot be considered normal.

Every test, either “school near” as those designed for PISA or “school far” as designed for intelligence testing, are subject to the same concerns about sampling, measurement invariance, individual item analysis, and the appropriateness of summary statistics. Why the difference in public response to these two different points on the assessment spectrum? Perhaps it is as simple as noting that in scholastic attainment there is always room to do better (or to blame the quality of schooling) whereas in intelligence testing there is an implication of an immutable restriction, unfairly revealed by tricky questions of doubtful validity.

Perhaps it is a matter of publicity. PISA has the money for brochures, briefing papers, press conferences, meetings with government officials. Richard Lynn put his list together in his study, and came up with results that many were happy to bury.

Now we have David Becker taking over the database, and doing the whole thing again. Here is the 3rd major iteration of his revision. He tells me:

In the last six months, I have been able to increase the number of sources used from 253 to 357 and the number of nations from 92 to 123, and also to make many improvements in the methods. At present, the database contains samples to a total of 550,492 individuals.

Here is a diagram showing the relationship between the newly established IQ values (David Becker, X axis) to those of Lynn and Vanhanen on Y axis (L & V).

Becker and Lynn compared

The correlation is .90 for 305 Comparisons. The average of the IQ variations is only 1.07 with a standard deviation of 5.86. This means that around 75 % of the new IQ measurements do not deviate more than 5.86 points from the original measurements. A deliberate manipulation of the figures by Lynn and Vanhanen, as the two scientists have often been accused of, I cannot confirm with the best will. More still, looking at the polygono shuffle (dotted) in the diagram, it can be seen that, compared to me, Lynn and Vanhanen showed higher values, especially in the IQ-Weak African and IQ-Strong Northeast Asian samples. (My note: slightly over-estimated African and East Asian intelligence).

However, it was the hypothesis that Lynn and Vanhanen wanted to test that countries with higher IQ would also have greater economic strength (GDP / head). However, these countries are, in particular, in the range from 95 to 105. Japan as a country in North-East Asia with the highest GDP / head of 41,300 $ and a national IQ of 104-107, for example, is far below the US with a GDP / head of $ 57,400 and a national IQ of 97-99. If Lynn and Vanhanen were deliberately increasing North East Asian IQs, then this would have reduced the support for their own hypothesis

In PISA style, here are the highlights:

1. The population-weighted cross-national mean IQ-score is 89.03, with SD of 12.89, for 123 nations. There are roughly 550,000 individuals in the included samples.

2. The countries of Latvia and Belarus are new in the dataset and are included in the geographic means, but Latvia still has poor data quality.

3. At the level of records (source), my re-estimated (DB) and Richard’s original (L&V) data give:

DB: M=85.58; SD=13.73; N=358
L&V: M=85.36; SD=12.69; N=315

They are highly similar. The mean difference was estimated for 314 records as only 1.06, with a SD of 5.84. 75% of the re-estimated IQs are within this SD.

4. But I would also emphasize that there are some other re-estimated scores which more than 15 IQ-scores away from Richard’s and the reason for this has to be determined urgently. Especially scores from Coloured Progressive Matrices (the new ones) are sometimes implausible.

So, it is overall important for me to say that this is a work in progress and the dataset is more suitable to find global patterns rather than the exact IQs of single nations.

In the spirit of open science, here is Becker’s work in progress for you to look through.
Here is the entire spreadsheet

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B3c4TxciNeJZWUx5bzBWZ1BuMUk

Read the Manual 1.1 to get an understanding of the basic terms and categories.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B3c4TxciNeJZWC1tM3RMQmhKUW8

On the spreadsheet the simplest summary is in “Favorites” and there is more background material in “Collection”. The nitty-gritty is in “Calculations” but there is even more detail in the further tabs.

For users who want quick access to IQ lists the table “FAVORITES” is recommended. It contains the final estimated national IQ-scores without additional information.National IQ-scores in column D (IQ(DB)) based solely on data, repeatedly checked and partly recalculated by David Becker. For these scores the highest possible amount of additional information is provided. Therefore, these scores are best suited to those who want to focus on rechecked and data from transparent and highly standardized methods.

National IQ-scores in column E (IQ(L&V)) were taken from the latest version of the dataset from Lynn and Vanhanen (2012, Table 2.1). All necessary corrections were done by Lynn & Vanhanen without revision by David Becker. Therefore, these scores are best suited to those who prefer to use original instead of revisited data, and the highest possible number of sources per nation.
National IQ-scores in column F (M(DB,L&V)) were calculated by unweighted means of column D and E. Therefore, these scores are best suited to those who prefer to use original and revisited data combined.

National IQ-scores in column G (IQ(L&Vo)) were calculated by David Becker as means from every single source which was not revisited. All necessary corrections were done by Lynn and Vanhanen without revision by David Becker.

National IQ-scores in column H (M(DB,L&Vo)) were calculated as means from data in columns D and G, weighted by number of sources. If National IQ-scores from columd D not given, national IQ-scores from column E used. For these scores the highest possible number of sources was included in the table “RECORDS”. Therefore, these scores are best suited to those who focus on a compromise between quality and quantity.

The tables “COLLECTION” and “RECORDS” contain IQ-estimates at the source-level and background material for calculations and corrections. A more differentiated view in national IQ-scores can be found in table “NATIONAL” including separated IQ-scores by type of test. Here, revisited and original data were given and thus recommended for users who want to look beyond the mere national IQ-scores.

There are three maps: Becker’s version; Lynn and Vanhananen; composite. It is premature to create maps until one is sure about all the data points, so accept this as an overview of the general trend, and no more than that.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B3c4TxciNeJZT25WLXNHam45VVE

In conclusion, this work has progressed far but there is still work to be done: you must note the cases of discrepancies which need to be tracked down and resolved. In terms of future developments of the database, there are many more studies to be added.

However, once all this has been said, it has to be recognized that this is the largest and most carefully described collection of the world’s intelligence results.

 
• Category: Science • Tags: IQ, Psychometrics 
Hide 825 CommentsLeave a Comment
825 Comments to "The World's IQ = 86"
Commenters to Ignore...to FollowEndorsed Only
Trim Comments?
    []
  1. res says:

    Thanks! And thanks to David Becker for making his work available!

    Here is a link to his project (also includes an UPDATES (V1.1).txt file with what is new in this version, probably more detail than most want though): https://www.researchgate.net/project/Worlds-IQ

    The correlation plot is interesting. I wish it had the outliers identified. I think I’ll try to do that in R myself.

    It might be useful to link Becker’s data to more detailed country information like: https://github.com/lukes/ISO-3166-Countries-with-Regional-Codes/blob/master/all/all.csv
    I think the three letter country code would serve as a key to merge the data. That would allow doing regional and subregional analyses. For example, look at the IQ correlations by continent to make the comments about Africa and NE Asia above a bit more concrete. Could also break down IQ-GDP correlations by region to look for patterns.

    The CONV-FORMULAS table looks very useful for anyone who wants to interpret the raw scores of any of the tests covered (mostly Raven’s variants): SPM, APM, CPM, SPM+, WISC-R.

  2. res says:

    One thing that concerns me about the country IQ data is the heavy reliance on the Raven’s tests. Doing so is understandable given the utility of a language independent and relatively culture fair (I think?) test. The issue I see is whether that introduces a bias towards certain areas of cognitive functioning. Has anyone looked into this in detail? I am not finding good references.

    For racial differences we have a variety of subtest data summarized at http://thealternativehypothesis.org/index.php/2016/09/21/blacks-and-whites-with-the-same-iq-still-differ-a-lot/

    I am having trouble finding references for correlations between Raven’s tests and subtests. I see this 1954 paper: http://psycnet.apa.org/record/1955-02457-001
    which gives the following WISC subtest and Raven’s CPM correlations:

    WISC measure r
    Full Scale IQ 0.91
    Verbal IQ 0.84
    Performance IQ 0.83
    Block Design 0.74
    Object Assembly 0.73
    Vocabulary 0.73
    Comprehension 0.7
    Arithmetic 0.66
    Picture Completion 0.62
    Similarities 0.62
    Coding 0.6
    Picture Arrangement 0.58
    Information 0.47

    Looking at the Jensen 1987 WISC subtest racial gaps (from link above) in http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0160289687900249
    we see Block Design and Object Assembly have the largest racial gaps and Coding the smallest. This seems suggestive of Raven’s tests overestimating racial gaps, but is hardly conclusive.

    Does anyone have better data?

  3. Factorize says:

    res, what is your take on the large downgrades of several of the Central American nations?

    Is a national IQ for Nicaragua in the mid-50s truly plausible?
    The resulting geographic discontinuities would then be extreme.

  4. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Some of Becker’s values seem suspiciously low. Becker’s IQ for Ireland is 85, which would be around the African-American level, and is lower than Becker’s values for the Dominican Republic, Iraq, Kuwait, Mexico, Chile, and several Caribbean countries. Romania is at 82, one point higher than Sudan. Italy, Portugal, and Greece are at 89, the same as Sri Lanka and Kyrgyzstan, and one point higher than Mexico and Qatar, and lower than Mauritius.

  5. hyperbola says:

    So the “best” data set available covers less than 0.05% of human beings and only about 60% of countries have any data. No doubt we will get all kinds of wise statistical interpretations based on such data.

  6. Jm8 says:

    Interestingly (and perhaps not surprisingly) it seems some of the relatively prosperous Caribbean countries (with relatively better living standards/education etc) here (in this Becker “DB” study) have somewhat higher IQs than as claimed by Lynn (for some of them he did not actually have specific country data) in this re-analysis (and also here are more similar those found for them by Jason Malloy in his re-analyses at his humanvarieties blog): Barbados scores 93, The Bahamas 91, and Bermuda 94 (at about the same range as the Mediterranean, Balkan and South East Asian countries and higher than most of the Middle Eastern—Lebanon, Iraq, Iran, etc—,Central American countries, and the Spanish Caribbean)

    below under “favorites” as well as under “national”:

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3c4TxciNeJZWUx5bzBWZ1BuMUk/view

    • Replies: @Jm8
  7. @Anonymous

    You are right and countries like Portugal or Italy are also much too low to be true and I was tempted several times to exclude (for the present) or correct such implausible looking numbers but otherwise, I’m not satisfied with individual corrections or hiding problems. I hope this way of presenting such possible errors or mistakes will help me to find answers and to improve the dataset. That is also why I try to make the ways of calculating and estimating as transparent as possible.

    • Replies: @Ron Unz
    , @Ethicist
  8. Jm8 says:
    @Jm8

    Edit: “(as far as I know, for some of them, he may not have had—or had much—specific country data)”

  9. @res

    It would be better to have relatively equal numbers of samples from different tests but Raven’s seems to be the most widely used and those with the most background data. In particular, raw-scores are almost always supplied to measurements with Raven’s Tests for most others already computed IQ-sccores were displayed. In addition, Raven’s Tests did not change so much over time and therefore the results are comparable between widely distant moments of measurement. Nevertheless, first analyzes show strong correlations between the different types of tests which, even if the number of comparative cases is partly very small.

    • Replies: @res
  10. res says:
    @Factorize

    Hopefully David Becker can comment since he knows much more about this than I do.

    The Nicaragua data looks like it might have some issues. Looking in the RECORD table for the study that seems to be driving the low numbers: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9381236
    I see the table lists the test as the APM (Raven’s Advanced Progressive Matrices) and gives raw scores between 1 and 2.
    Looking at the paper itself they appear to have used the CPM (Raven’s Coloured Progressive Matrices) and I see scores like:

    If the formal schooling group is divided into those who completed primary school (mean CPM score = 8.24) and those who did not (mean CPM score = 7.12), the gradient in scores by level of education becomes even more striking.

    and from Table 3:

    Crude Adjusted
    Mean intelligence scores (unweighted)
    Illiterate 5.11 5.32
    Adult education 6.97 6.99
    Formal schooling 7.45 7.22

    I’m not sure which conversion formula to use. In the CONV-FORMULAS table I don’t see a version for adults using the CPM. I do see a CPM(Ab) to CPM(FS) conversion, which is important because I believe that paper used the Ab version.

    I don’t know how robust the conversion formulas are, but I suppose it is possible to do a multistep conversion CPM(Ab) -> CPM(FS) -> SPM -> IQ

    Those spreadsheets represent a monumental amount of work and I think it would be hard to prevent occasional errors creeping in. I don’t know what kind of data cleaning techniques have been used already, but it might be worth specifically reviewing large outliers from Lynn’s data to double check.

    P.S. If there really is an error for Nicaragua this is exactly the sort of reason open sourcing data can be so beneficial. Kudos to David Becker for doing so.

    • Replies: @res
  11. @Anonymous

    I haven’t looked at this in any detail, but I can provide a suggestion: The Flynn effect has been highly variable across different types of tests.

    http://scottbarrykaufman.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/Armstrong-Woodley-2014.pdf

    In particular, performance on verbal and arithmetic tests has increased very slowly, while performance on Raven’s has skyrocketed. (This is perhaps linked to the fact that nutrition and brain size in identical twins have good correlations with performance IQ, but negligible ones with verbal IQ).

    If the Irish (Italians, Portuguese, Greeks, etc.) were being tested decades ago with Raven’s tests then they could be substantially underweighed relative to today’s norms (i.e. have the national calculations of the Flynn effect been adjusted for the strength of the Flynn effect being different across various test categories?).

    Another point. Again, I haven’t yet looked at this in any detail, but the national figures for the Flynn effect seem, in general, to be… pretty strange. You have strong improvements in countries like France, Netherlands, Switzerland, Australia, United States; all countries that were already well developed throughout the 20th century. In contrast, South Korea ekes out a miserable Flynn effect, even though studies show it was huge there, and the OECD Survey of Adult Skills 2013 show it to have by far the biggest cognitive gap between young people and old people (suggesting a very strong Flynn effect); this would make sense, since South Korea went from a Third World country in the 1950s to developed world status by the 2000s.

  12. res says:
    @David Becker

    Thanks for your response! I definitely agree with the benefit of having a small number of similar (SPM, APM, CPM, SPM+) tests stable over time. The raw score aspect is something I had not thought about. It used to frustrate me because the conversion tables are proprietary, but your formulas are very helpful in that regard–thanks! Now that I can convert myself I see the utility of reporting the raw scores.

    Are you aware of any research which would help answer my concern about Raven’s tests possibly focusing on cognitive areas which would overestimate racial differences?

  13. Here are the results from the Block and Block data (N = 104, age 11).

    WISC total = .67
    verbal total = .62
    performance total = .58
    information = .45
    arithmetic = .40
    vocabulary = .40
    digit span = .38
    picture arrangement = .19
    object assembly = .37
    mazes = .50
    comprehension = .36
    block design = .54
    coding = .30

    I hope this helps.

    • Replies: @res
  14. Ron Unz says:
    @David Becker

    You are right and countries like Portugal or Italy are also much too low to be true

    Offhand, it looks like the figures you’re using for Ireland and various other European countries are heavily based on Lynn’s dataset. If so, you really should take a look at a couple of my own articles from a few years back, which discuss those figures in considerable detail:

    http://www.unz.com/runz/race-iq-and-wealth/

    http://www.unz.com/runz/raceiq-irish-iq-chinese-iq/

    • Agree: Wizard of Oz
  15. res says:
    @Curtis Dunkel

    Thanks! That also shows a block design correlation substantially higher than for coding, though object assembly and digit span have about the same correlation (those 4 subtests are the two lowest/highest gaps per Jensen 87). So mixed evidence for my concern.

    Their 2006 paper: http://psycnet.apa.org/record/2006-05893-004
    mentions a forthcoming web site for the data. Did that ever happen?

    Your 2013 paper: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160289613000834
    has a nice overview of the Block data collection waves in Table 1 and Table 3 was a good summary of the g measure correlations. It seems surprising that the age 7 and 11 Raven’s results both correlated ~0.65 with the age 11 WISC and age 18 WAIS results yet only correlated 0.5 with each other.

    • Replies: @Curtis Dunkel
  16. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Romania is a major outsourcing destination for major companies and its economy has been growing robustly. Hard to believe that it has an average IQ of 82.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/14/romania-economy-booming

    At a sleek new office in the heart of Bucharest, Fitbit co-founder and chief executive James Park explains why the smartwear giant is rapidly expanding its operations in Romania – and following the lead of a host of multinationals. “The tech talent here is amazing. Romania and other countries in central and eastern Europe have great existing talent, and also great universities,” he says.

    The US company, which bought Romanian smartwatch brand Vector Watches for a reported $15m (£11.4m) late last year, and has tripled its staff in Romania since, has just opened its largest research and development centre outside the US, in the Romanian capital. It’s not alone: in recent years, major global companies such as Siemens, Ford and Bosch have set up or expanded operations in Romania, boosting an economy that’s already growing at speed.

    While many see Romania as a country of migrants flocking abroad to find work, back home the economy is booming. The services sector is expanding at pace, along with exports and manufacturing. Meanwhile, private consumption – from clothes to furniture and cars – hit a nine-year high in 2016, and increased a further 8% in the first half of this year.

    The economy grew 5.7% year-on-year in the second quarter of 2017, the fastest rate in the EU, where the average growth rate was 2.4%. This was on the back of a GDP rise of 4.8% in 2016 and 3.9% in 2015; during the same period the UK economy grew by a more placid 1.8% and 2.2%. According to the International Monetary Fund, Romania’s economy is expected to grow by 5.5% for the whole of 2017.

    The tech sector, in particular, is expanding fast, built on a communist-era legacy of excellence in science, mathematics and technical education, as well as Romania’s strong language skills, which have long made it a hub for IT outsourcing. While the Romanian language’s Latin roots have helped explained the country’s linguistic skills, some suggest it was a decision to subtitle rather than dub foreign programming on television that boosted foreign language exposure and proficiency.

    • Replies: @MBlanc46
    , @Lurker
  17. gcochran says:
    @hyperbola

    If you don’t understand the concept of a statistical sample, you’re hopeless.

    • Replies: @silviosilver
  18. andy says:

    Bolivians with a higher IQ than Israelis? Surely there is a mistake there

  19. @res

    No problem.

    I downloaded the data from the Henry Murray Archive https://murray.harvard.edu/. It used to be available for anyone to download, but I think you have to apply for it now. I can run easily run any straightforward analyses you wish. Raven’s ages 4, 5, 7, and 11. WPPSI age 4, WISC age 11, WAIS age 18. Tons of other good stuff, very comprehensive data set, nice sample, but small.

  20. “Japan as a country in North-East Asia with the highest GDP / head of 41,300 $ and a national IQ of 104-107, for example, is far below the US with a GDP / head of $ 57,400 and a national IQ of 97-99.”

    I wonder how this works out with smart fraction theory? I don’t have the ability to run the numbers on that, but Japan’s population is much more homogeneous than the population of the United States, which may have a much larger standard deviation in national I.Q. Is it possible that if looked at from a smart fraction standpoint, that X percent of the U.S. population has an I.Q. over Z, while only Y percent of the Japan population has an I.Q. over Z, where X > Y? (I don’t remember what the X/Y and Z values were for smart fraction theory.)

    • Replies: @silviosilver
  21. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Taiwan, Hong Kong, and Singapore have higher GDP/capita than Japan does.

  22. A world population with an average IQ of 86?

    That explains a hell of a lot.

  23. LauraMR says:
    @hyperbola

    Add to that some of the data is “implausible” when a reader does not like the results.

    Consider, for example, the following comment above yours:

    Some of Becker’s values seem suspiciously low. Becker’s IQ for Ireland is 85, which would be around the African-American level, and is lower than Becker’s values for the Dominican Republic, Iraq, Kuwait, Mexico, Chile, and several Caribbean countries. Romania is at 82, one point higher than Sudan. Italy, Portugal, and Greece are at 89, the same as Sri Lanka and Kyrgyzstan, and one point higher than Mexico and Qatar, and lower than Mauritius.

    • Agree: Afrosapiens, Okechukwu
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    , @Afrosapiens
  24. As far as I know the 100 IQ is the average, defined as such.
    Therefore an average of 86 is a contradiction in terminis.
    The only explanation I can think of is the often asserted cultural bias of IQ tests.
    Contrary to popular ideas IQ does not test intelligence, because never there has been a definition of intelligence that can be translated into measurement.
    Therefore IQ just measures IQ, whatever it is.

  25. @andy

    Why, are the Bolivians more suicidal than Israelis ?
    The Bolivians are the only people in S America who liberated themselves from the western yoke.

    • Replies: @Andy
  26. ‘Countries’, political entities, are all the rage these days and residence in one or the other is the defining characteristic of humankind.

    Research into racial disparities in IQ is so very 19th century.

  27. @gcochran

    I think the point of his second sentence remains, that we can count on seeing all sorts of “wise interpretations of” (ie excitable claims about) this data. Well, I suppose that’s unavoidable. Still, I think those who caution against putting too much stock in the last whole-digit of these scores can feel vindicated, what with 5-point losses being so common during this round of measurement.

    As an IQ ‘true believer’, I’m disappointed that scores vary so much from dataset to dataset, since this eases the path for obstructionists to claim the whole concept is bogus. Hopefully, as the importance of IQ comes to be better appreciated, greater amounts of higher quality data will be accumulated, allowing a stabler and more accurate picture of the world to emerge.

    • Agree: Wizard of Oz
  28. @Stephen Marle

    Is it possible that if looked at from a smart fraction standpoint, that X percent of the U.S. population has an I.Q. over Z, while only Y percent of the Japan population has an I.Q. over Z, where X > Y? (I don’t remember what the X/Y and Z values were for smart fraction theory.)

    That is a very obvious inference to make if one accepts the reality of racial differences in IQ. Of course, it would be much better to have actual data.

    • Replies: @res
  29. @res

    Raven tests are not culture not language INDEPENDENT in the same way FREE will no exist…

    To read; to think about de-contextualized pattern recognition we need obviously use our linguistic skills (omniscient) which are derived from the culture we born. Remember gene-culture co-evolution. Remember how this works and apply it in cultural-psychocognitive evolution. It’s obviously explain for exame Inuit spatial and general skills.

    Example and not exame.

    • Replies: @Santoculto
  30. @Anatoly Karlin

    Flynn Effect has been similar in both sexes??

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  31. @Ron Unz

    Dear Ron Unz, thank you for these links. Mainly my work so far was to replicate the data of Lynn, to learn about his methods and to test the validity of his data. I have to do one or two things yet, then I will begin with the inclusion of further and new sources. Let’s see how the patterns will be change or if they will be robust. DB

    • Replies: @Ron Unz
  32. I would like to get rid of a general comment.

    I read many comments about that some countries’ IQ’s are implausible and I totally agree. But I followed a principle in the project to take data and results the way they are, not making individual corrections, whatever is an attack area for criticism. On the contrary, one criticism to Lynn was that he had acted selectively, for which, however, I could find no clue. And the best way in my opinion to tackle the criticism of selectivism is to accept and show data that does not meet your (my) own expectations.

    Anyway, it is not expected that my results will be completely the same as Lynn’s. There are some differences in methods (N-weighted means, separated age-groups, FLynn-Effects based on a meta-analysis which was not available when Lynn made his work, etc.) and I still have not included all his sources and especially the very old ones will may never be. So, not every deviation between Lynn’s and my data must be caused by an error, but to find out which are and which are not is very important for the further progress of the project.

  33. neutral says:

    Isn’t the IQ system based on how you compare to the average of others? So the average IQ for the entire world is surely 100, regardless how clever or dumb people become.

    So the world’s IQ = 100

  34. Ron Unz says:
    @David Becker

    Thanks. If I assume correctly that you’re utilizing the same older datasets that Lynn provided, I’d hope you’re exploring the time-dependency I discussed.

    For example, I pointed out that over the decades in question, the Flynn-adjusted IQ scores of the Irish rose sharply, with their value having roughly a 0.85 correlation with time. The IQs of the Eastern Germans and various other groups followed a roughly similar trajectory.

    Obviously, Flynn-adjusted increases of 15 points or so in little more than a single generation are hardly genetic, and I believe strongly support the Weak IQ Hypothesis I presented in my article.

    Similarly, during the 1930s and earlier, the IQs of Italians, Greeks, and most other Southern and Eastern European groups in America were generally in the 75-85 range, always relative to a white American IQ of 100. So they also rose 15-25 Flynn-adjusted points in about two generations.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  35. @neutral

    An, no.

    100 is a kind of golden standard but not real ones.

  36. @LauraMR

    Surely a lot of the figures like a lot of Lynn’s – as Ron Unz penetratingly observed several years ago – are indeed implausible as a reliable basis for inferences about the cognitive potential of several of the populations for which figures are given. If the figures in the low to mid 80s for Ireland when the UK was at about 100, for example, are a plausible basis for anything the best inference would be that the factors giving rise to the Flynn Effect had started later and/or spread more slowly in Ireland than in the UK. I am supposing it plausible that all the tests eere conducted competently and in circumstances that did not destroy comparability.

    • Agree: LauraMR
  37. @neutral

    Greenwich Mean IQ is set at 100. Other nations differ against that benchmark.

    • Replies: @neutral
  38. @Santoculto

    Interesting question, but it should also have adfed to it the question whether the answer differs according to country and/or culture.

  39. @Ron Unz

    Have you considered how the Greenwich Mean IQ of 100 as JT calls it may have begun to vary because of relatively dysgenic breeding setting in amongst whites of European backgrounď in the last 90 yeats? Even before total fertility rates were recorded as declining the increasing number of years in education and otherwise preparing for the comfortable professional and upper middle class before producing children would have had some effect.

    The point I suppose is related to the calculations of ? Michael Woodley of ?? who has estimated the decadal decline at 1 per cent or more.

  40. Speaking very generally I think this once again demonstrates that whereas data from multifarious IQ tests are useful for global scale analyses, they are far less reliable for particular countries.

    The results of the PISA tests – which are highly standardized, have large samples from similar age groups, take place concurrently once every three years, test those aspects of intelligence most intuitively relevant to economic success (i.e. application of numeracy and literacy skills in novel situations), and enjoy strong face validity (i.e. very few “strange” results) – should be regarded as the gold standard.

    • Replies: @James Thompson
  41. @res

    Raven’s is far from culture fair. I believe it was Linda Gottfredson who said something along the lines of people saying that Raven’s is culture fair just because Jensen said so.

    • Replies: @James Thompson
  42. @LauraMR

    I’m also amused by the selective incredulity. I don’t doubt that many (if not most) of these figures are wrong. But no one is questioning the representativeness of the samples nor even asking for the literature research methods that were used to find these samples. Because I’ve seen the spreadsheets and I can see that many studies that I know for some countries are not on the list.

    Anyway, this “research” is leading nowhere as it’s not carried by competent demographers who know how to measure population variables.

    • Replies: @James Thompson
  43. @jilles dykstra

    100 is the standardized value, scaled so that it is set equal to the average of northern European subsamples, not of global samples. Rescaling on a global sample just involves multiplying everyone’s IQ by (100/86).

    • Replies: @utu
  44. dearieme says:
    @andy

    “Bolivians with a higher IQ than Israelis? ”

    Bolivians have IQs and they live thousands of feet higher than Israelis, so there’s a sense in which it must be true.

    • Replies: @Santoculto
    , @Jack Daniels
  45. What I want to know is how at least 97% of those people end up in front of me on the highway every day … particularly those DWT.

    • Replies: @jim jones
  46. @dearieme

    But bolivians have a avg IQ around 85 and isisraelis around 94 isn’t*

    Would be interesting american [european, diaspora] jewish Pisa results …

  47. jim jones says:
    @The Alarmist

    And the supermarket checkout, get your money/card ready beforehand people

  48. @RaceRealist88

    Yes, Gottfredson made that remark, and I remember her doing it at an ISIR conference.
    However, if it is “far from culture fair” then we need to know which studies show that, and understand the arguments.

    • Replies: @res
    , @RaceRealist88
  49. @Anatoly Karlin

    Dear Anatoly, Agree that PISA is a very good source of material, but coverage varies enormously from country to country, so that is an issue. Taking the Maths and/or Science scores is a good proxy for intelligence, and Heiner Rindermann found a high correlation with IQ scores for individual nations.
    As to national IQs, they are pretty good for well-organized wealthy countries, and far less good for the others, although some new ones are pretty good, like the 11,000 one on Nigeria.
    The problem, or opportunity, is that there are many other studies which give intelligence results on nations, but they have not been included. David Becker knows all that, but cannot do everything at once, and will add them in due course.
    We need some volunteers who are willing to get into this for the long haul.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
  50. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    If insanity is “doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results”, what is “doing the same thing over and over again, getting different results, and wondering why that is”?

    This is reminiscent of all those suburban moms who encourage their twenty-something sons to live in the basement and conduct a never ending Dungeons and Dragons marathon.

    I congratulate Ron Unz for what is obviously an impish sense of humor.

    • Replies: @bomag
  51. @Afrosapiens

    If figures are wrongly described or wrongly calculated, then of course that needs to be corrected.
    Representativeness has been much debated. See the exchanges between Lynn and Wicherts on sub-Saharan intelligence results. It was also researched by Rushton.
    There are about 600 studies to be added (see earlier posts about the Becker project), but we have no resources, so the pace will be slow.
    Having input from demographers would be helpful, and would be funds for larger scale testing.

    • Replies: @Afrosapiens
  52. @Santoculto

    I mean ”ancestral culture we came from”, the example of adopted foreign/or of different sub-cultural milieu] son with different psychological and cognitive outcomes to their adoptive fathers showed the friction between that ”ancestral culture all of us are products” and the culture/milieu we are raised.

    Indeed sometimes when sons are more mutant than fathers/progenitors is common that this ”intergenerational natural program” be disrupted or discontinued.

  53. Andy says:
    @jilles dykstra

    This might be anecdotal, but having been both in Bolivia (a beautiful country) and in Israel, there is no way Bolivia’s IQ can be higher than Israel (even allowing than in Israel’s survey Israeli arabs are included). If you want to go further than anecdotes, see how many Nobel prizes have Bolivians have won and how many have Jews won

    • Replies: @jilles dykstra
  54. @James Thompson

    If figures are wrongly described or wrongly calculated, then of course that needs to be corrected.

    Indeed, that’s what has to be done instead of using them to back claims with a complacent “that’s the best data we have” mentality.

    Representativeness has been much debated. See the exchanges between Lynn and Wicherts on sub-Saharan intelligence results. It was also researched by Rushton.
    There are about 600 studies to be added (see earlier posts about the Becker project), but we have no resources, so the pace will be slow.

    No resources? You have the Pioneer Fund!

    Having input from demographers would be helpful, and would be funds for larger scale testing.

    So why hasn’t it been done after all this time and all these debates?

  55. It’s hard to respect these results when the people who cite them rarely mention the considerable methodological problems involved. Secondly one must assume the ‘nurture’ factor favors western countries and western populations within third-world countries, but until we know the nature-nurture equation we can’t estimate the effect. Moreover, nearly all American self-identified blacks have some white DNA, which could be as much as 50% or more. Molyneux has attempted to correlate low IQ with criminal propensity, but this is unproven and any effect is probably drowned out by the enormous increase in minority crime following the introduction of the welfare state and the destigmatizing of random sexual relationships in the mid-60s, with consequent collapse of the nuclear family. According to an interview with a Great Society architect, their research led them to the conclusion that an intact family is the single most powerful inhibitor of criminality but discarded the result as politically inconvenient. We are living with the fruits of incompetent and insidious “social science.” And anyone who thinks blacks are going to return to Africa or move to Alaska to make way for a white ethno-state needs to get out of the house more.

  56. @dearieme

    A clever reply! Are you Bolivian by any chance?
    But maybe the smarter Jews know they have better opportunities in the land of the goyim. How many famous Jewish geniuses live in Israel? Not very many.

    • Replies: @Santoculto
  57. neutral says:
    @James Thompson

    Other nations yes, but the title of this article said the world’s IQ, that has to be 100, by definition.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @James Thompson
  58. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @neutral

    Other nations yes, but the title of this article said the world’s IQ, that has to be 100, by definition.

    LOL. My dear Mr. Neutral, I believe you are missing the point of these little contretemps entirely. Screw all that “norming the mean” boozhwah — nigga be dumb, dammit!

  59. Test results of 550,492 individuals in 123 countries

    Who? 550,492 individuals
    Where? 123 countries
    When?

    Before discussing more complex aspects of a sample’s representativeness, we have to know what is the year of validity of these estimates.

  60. @Jack Daniels

    Israel is a safe conduct for them…

  61. @Jack Daniels

    Probably because the random nature of miscigenation but i read somewhere that lighter skin color tend to correlates with better socio-economic outcomes for blacks at least in USA. In the end, very underclass blacks tend to be quite blacker. At least in South Africa and in other places as Brazil mulattos tend to ”do” better than pure-blood [bantus/western subsaharians] blacks.

    • Replies: @RaceRealist88
    , @Lurker
  62. @James Thompson

    Jason Malloy (Human Varieties) has collected a huge amount of IQ tests, apparently including many little-known ones that don’t register in academic databases, but I also recall him saying that doing just one “big” country like China or India would take a couple of years for him.

    http://www.unz.com/isteve/jason-malloys-evolving-epic-on-national-average-iqs/

    I have, however, been tracking down world IQ studies for about 10 years now, and it’s probably safe to say that I have immediate hard drive access to more global intelligence test studies than any other person on earth. And with this website I now have a more transparent way of recording this data and a more immediate way of sharing it.

    It would be great if we could somehow get him to join efforts with David Becker and Lynn. (Though Malloy has been quite critical of Lynn).

    Even more ideally would be funding for the purposes of compiling an open-access database of IQ scores across countries, sub-regions, and time. (One can fantasize).

    • Replies: @James Thompson
  63. @Jack Daniels

    an intact family is the single most powerful inhibitor of criminality

    Right, but even accepting your premises we see that statistically certain groups are more prone to the bad effects of welfare.

    Also, there’s plenty of pathological behavior in societies with large, loyal, intact families: Somalia, Sicily.

    • Replies: @neutral
  64. neutral says:
    @The Anti-Gnostic

    I need to add the Gypsies of Europe where theft is a core family tradition.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  65. @neutral

    The most complete standardizations were done in Western countries, among which US and UK were prominent, so the world figures are expressed according to those standards, hence the idea of Greenwich mean intelligence. Far Eastern countries are above the Greenwich Mean intelligence, and others are below it.
    It would be possible to re-standardize all tests to a world standard, but at the moment we do not have complete enough data for Africa and South America, (and also other individual countries) though that may improve in further decades.
    Since the measures are comparative in nature, the scores between nations and continents can be expressed on a common scale anyway.
    It would be interesting to have international data on reaction times, inspection times and so on, for comparative purposes.

  66. res says:
    @silviosilver

    Is it possible that if looked at from a smart fraction standpoint, that X percent of the U.S. population has an I.Q. over Z, while only Y percent of the Japan population has an I.Q. over Z, where X > Y? (I don’t remember what the X/Y and Z values were for smart fraction theory.)

    That is a very obvious inference to make if one accepts the reality of racial differences in IQ. Of course, it would be much better to have actual data.

    The obvious inference to make is that X < Y based on the different racial means. Stephen's question is more interesting. It seems unlikely, but might be possible with the right mix of high IQ subpopulations and selective migration.

  67. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @neutral

    I need to add the Gypsies of Europe where theft is a core family tradition.

    Uh huh. And poodles are intelligent, but misbehaving. Labs are loyal but inclined to fat. Border collies ace IQ tests, and shih-tzus are so cute!

    Mother of all gods, but this IQ nonsense is demeaning to the very notion of “intelligence”.

    • Agree: Afrosapiens
  68. utu says:
    @Peter Johnson

    Rescaling on a global sample just involves multiplying everyone’s IQ by (100/86).

    Wrong.

    • Replies: @bomag
  69. res says:
    @James Thompson

    Is there any chance you could ask Gottfredson to expand on her remark? The “fairness” of a test seems like an important concept for attempting to do worldwide comparisons.

    It seems to me that these are some of the relevant aspects of test fairness:
    1. Language issues. Either overall language or details like “regatta questions.”
    2. Cognitive aspects emphasized in different cultures. A common example being more abstract thinking in modern societies.
    3. Racial differences in cognitive profiles.

    Raven’s seems quite good in terms of 1.–which is what I think most people mean by “culture fair.” However, I think 2 and 3 are a problem given the importance of abstract thinking in Raven’s tests.

    Some papers talking about the culture fairness of IQ tests. (I realize you–JT–know all about this, including for myself and others)

    Cultural Perceptions of Human Intelligence: http://www.mdpi.com/2079-3200/2/4/180/htm
    This paper refers to Raven’s as “culturally fairer” but raises some pertinent objections from Scarr. It also uses the term “culture reduced.” References 46-50 look most relevant.

    Scarr reference 49 (562 page book) is Race, Social Class and Individual Differences in IQ: New Studies of Old Issues available at http://arthurjensen.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Race-Social-Class-and-individual-Differences-in-IQ-Scarr.pdf

    Scarr reference 50 is Psychological science in the public arena: Three cases of dubious influence described at http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1467-9450.1995.tb00977.x/full
    One particularly relevant excerpt:

    Contrary to intuitions, African-Americans have been shown repeatedly to score better on culturally-loaded verbal material than on more abstract items that seem to sample less directly from the dominant culture (Jensen, 1980).

    Jensen, 1980 being of course Bias in Mental Testing: http://emilkirkegaard.dk/en/wp-content/uploads/Bias-in-Mental-Testing-Arthur-R.-Jensen.pdf
    Chapter 14 Culture-reduced Tests and Techniques is most relevant. An extended discussion of the RPM begins on page 645.

    • Replies: @Santoculto
  70. @Santoculto

    You talking about Lynn’s study that found a .14 correlation between IQ and skin color?

    • Replies: @Santoculto
  71. Communist countries are smarter//higher IQ than captalists ;))

  72. @RaceRealist88

    No, I don’t remember where or when I read that studies.

    At least in South Africa mulattoes do better than pure-bloods.

    • Replies: @Jm8
  73. I think we fully agree.
    Remains the question of what IQ measures, in my view just IQ.
    The inhabitants of Arnhem Land live in paradise, we would starve there.
    I admit, a lot of knowledge must be transmitted from parents to children, but nevertheless.
    A Dutch trading ship ‘discovered’ Australia by running there on the rocks.
    Polynesians navigated over thousands of miles of open sea, by looking at wave patterns.
    We never learned the trick.
    There are many more examples of this, Burton around 1850 in E Africa discovered very clever agricultural systems.
    So, I fear, IQ has a significant cultural bias.

    • Replies: @helena
  74. @res

    Try to separate humans from their or from any culture and analyze their intelligence//cognition seems impossible even because culture,more or less, is the concrete expression of intellectual human “achievements”. Cultural levels (hunter gatherers from civilization) tend to reflects psycho-cognitive levels and affects pattern recognition in the way will be expected that those who has been evolved within civilizations will score higher than those who has been evolved into the “wild” or in intermediary societies, specially if in the case of civilizations, social equality has been more common than long term rampant nepotism.

  75. @Andy

    Alas just assertions, no argument whatsoever.

  76. res says:
    @res

    Regarding use of the CPM for adult samples and norming, here are some comments from Jason Malloy: http://humanvarieties.org/2014/07/16/hvgiq-thailand/

    The Coloured Progressive Matrices was used as a measure of native intelligence. The CPM was originally designed for younger children, and Wicherts et al (2010, p. 37) have criticized both Richard Lynn and myself for calculating IQ scores for adult samples tested with the CPM. They argue that these IQ conversions are inappropriate because A) there are no adult norms for this test, and B) the test exhibits a ceiling effect—it is too easy for adults, and there are not enough items to compensate for errors, so a small number of incorrect responses can radically deflate IQ scores.

    These objections have not persuaded me. For one, a ceiling effect on this test is not inherently more of a problem for adults than it is for children (temporal and ethnic differences on this test rival age differences). To the extent it is an issue, it would be a greater problem for newer (norm inflated) studies of higher IQ populations than it would be for older studies of lower IQ populations (since few to no people in the latter group are able to answer all of the items correctly). Second, the CPM is routinely used as a test for adults, and the Raven’s manuals do, in fact, provide norm tables for older age groups.

  77. pyrrhus says:

    Average world IQ of 86 sounds about right, given the subSaharan average of 70…As I recall, Dr. Thompson had earlier discussed a British study that IQs below 88 were not educable to any standard, so the situation is stark. Either 3d world immigration or your Civilization, pick one…

    • Replies: @Okechukwu
  78. CanSpeccy says: • Website

    IQ test scores vary from one place to another. Amazing. Or rather, obviously.

    So in what way do these findings matter?

    • Replies: @The Anti-Gnostic
  79. Factorize says:

    We should be focusing our attention on AI.

    The recent extraordinary performance by Alpha Go Zeros should give us all something to deeply contemplate. If a small number of human programmers along with a modest amount of computational resources can defeat the highest ranked players in a widely followed domain after only a few days of reinforcement learning, then how far off are we now from a great many other applications of machine learning? A great many people will now try to imitate the recently disclosed algorithms and some of them surely will be successful.

    The potential for Singularity to occur over the near term is increasing. The torch of civilization has been passed to an artificial intelligence lifeform.

    Why continue to argue about human IQ differences that typically are less than 1 or 2 SD?

    • Replies: @notanon
  80. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Jack Daniels

    An interesting thought. When you consider that the violence gene MAOA is found in much higher percentages among American blacks than white, yet a lot of American blacks have white ancestry, the ancestral black population that came to American must have had MAOA in even higher proportions than they do today. I wonder how native West Africans test for MAOA?

    • Replies: @RaceRealist88
    , @Jm8
  81. Mark334 says:
    @jilles dykstra

    “As far as I know the 100 IQ is the average, defined as such.
    Therefore an average of 86 is a contradiction in terminis.
    The only explanation I can think of is the often asserted cultural bias of IQ tests.
    Contrary to popular ideas IQ does not test intelligence, because never there has been a definition of intelligence that can be translated into measurement.
    Therefore IQ just measures IQ, whatever it is”.

    All of this is false. 100 IQ is the median, not the average (mean), IQ for the sample of people that is used to standardize tests. The only way to really standardize a test, and have it mean anything, is to standardize it via racial category. Doing anything else is an impossible task, because it would be impossible to put together a sample of people that represented the entire world. Thus, specificity to race eliminates that headache and allows for test standardization to be successful and thus meaningful. Ie: you can now know what your intelligence is as compared to a meaningful sample of the white population, or you can make a test that is standardized to the black population, Northeast Asian population, Jewish population, etc.

    Thus, 100 IQ refers to the median IQ for “White people” for almost all tests that will be referenced / implemented in the west. (though, this is a highly unfortunate classification in itself, because “white” is so racially broad and ill-defined – standardizing tests to Celts or Nords would be better). If a test was standardized to Bantus, they would also have 100 as their median. And so it would go for every sample. 100 is always the median. The number is meaningless without knowing the group that the test is standardized to, and your score on the test is meaningless without knowing what group you are being compared to. All that it refers to is the median for any group sampled. Nothing more. It’s a completely relative quantity. My IQ is relatively high for a white person (though not super-elite high) but it would be astronomical if the IQ tests started to be standardized to the general population in the USA as opposed to just Whites. The new median pf 100 would likely be best represented by some ghetto population, who would hypothetically currently be around 86, as opposed to suburban Columbus which would hypothetically currently be around 100.

    So, no, an average of 86 is not a contradiction in “terminis”. You’re simply uneducated as to how IQ tests work.

    The assertion of cultural bias is merely the common excuse for why minorities are not as smart as groups who realize a median score of 100 or above. If there is a cultural bias, then why doesn’t it affect Northeast Asians who score higher? Moreover, the any claim for cultural bias is silly in legitimate tests that only test for pattern recognition.

    And, yes, intelligence can be both defined and quantified, and if you protest on any detail as to how that it is accomplished it can simply and easily be shown then that IQ tests would act as the best, most predictable, and most accurate proxy for intelligence as measured by real world performance. Thus, there is no getting away from the fact that IQ tests are our best, and an accurate, measurement of intelligence. Asserting anything else is just a “me too” whine for lower IQ groups.

  82. @CanSpeccy

    It means when you import millions of Meso-Americans and Africans and they and their descendants remain at persistent lower IQ means and hence unable to maintain pension obligations or contribute to technological advance, …

    Well, we told you so.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @CanSpeccy
  83. Jm8 says:
    @Santoculto

    Though the Barbadian and Bahamian scores (93 for Barbados and 91 for the Bahamas) are higher: at about the same range as the Mediterranean, Balkan and South East Asian countries and higher than most of the Middle Eastern, Central American countries, and somewhat higher than the mixed-race Spanish Caribbean. They are also higher than the scores of the South African mixed-race/mulatto Coloreds (as reported by Rushton, assuming his scores are accurate), and higher than the scores of African Americans (who have more white/non-African admixture than Barbadians or Bahamians do, i.e. Barbadians/Bahamians are more African than African Americans).

    • Replies: @Santoculto
  84. @Anon

    “An interesting thought. When you consider that the violence gene MAOA is found in much higher percentages among American blacks than white, yet a lot of American blacks have white ancestry, the ancestral black population that came to American must have had MAOA in even higher proportions than they do today. I wonder how native West Africans test for MAOA?”

    Yawn.

    The frequency of the ‘‘risk’’ allele in nonclinical samples of European ancestry ranges from 0.3 to 0.4, although the frequency of this allele in individuals of Asian and African ancestry appears to be substantially higher (*0.6 in both groups; Sabol et al. 1998).

    http://www.emilkirkegaard.dk/en/wp-content/uploads/Candidate-Genes-for-Aggression-and-Antisocial-Behavior-A-Meta-analysis-of-Association-Studies-of-the-5HTTLPR-and-MAOA-uVNTR.pdf

    However, any labels like “the warrior gene” are highly problematic because they suggest that the this gene is specifically associated with violence. It’s not, just as alleles from other genes do not only have one outcome. Pleiotropy is the term for how a single genetic variant can influence multiple different phenotypes. MAOA is highly pleiotropic: the traits and conditions potientially connected to the MAOA gene invlude Alzheimer’s. anoerxia, autism, body mass index, bone mineral density, chronic fatigue syndrome, depression, extraversion, hypertension, individualism, insomnia, intelligence, memory, neuroticism, obesity, openness to experience, persistence, restless leg syndrome, schizophrenia, social phobia, sudden infant death syndrome, time perception and voting behavior. (59) Perhaps it would be more fitting to call MAOA “the everything but the kitchen sink gene.” (Heine, 2017: 195)

    MAOA doesn’t ’cause’ crime. There are no singular genetic causes for crime.

    Although many psychiatrists, biochemists, and other scientists who are not geneticists (yet express themselves with remarkable facility on genetic issues) still use the language of genes as simple causal agents, and promise their audience rapid solutions to all sorts of problems, they are no more than propagandists whose knowledge or motives must be suspect. The geneticists themselves now think and talk (most of the time) in terms of genetic networks composed of tens or hundreds of genes and gene products, which interact with each other and together affect the development of a particular trait. They recognize that whether or not a trait (a sexual preference, for example) develops does not depend, in the majority of cases, on a difference in a single gene. It involves interactions among many genes, many proteins and other types of molecule, and the environment in which an individual develops. (Jablonka and Lamb, 2014: 17)

    First chapter available here.

    https://mitpress.mit.edu/sites/default/files/titles/content/9780262600699_sch_0001.pdf

    https://notpoliticallycorrect.me/2017/10/15/maoa-race-and-crime-a-simple-relationship/

  85. @hyperbola

    Much like political poles, merely adding numbers to data bases produce little, if any changes to the final tally.

  86. Jm8 says:
    @Anon

    “The ancestral black population that came to American must have had MAOA in even higher proportions than they do today. I wonder how native West Africans test for MAOA?”

    Perhaps, you could maybe be right, that the ones that came to America generally did (have higher rates) than those that did not, but I don’t know. Also, I don’t believe any black populations (other than African Americans) have so far been tested for it—at least not for the 2R version—the only study on that one with blacks compared black and white Americans.

    Interestingly, the Lu 2013 study (below) in its tables 1 and 2 seems to show MAO 2R (supposedly the somewhat more “potent” version of MAO) a bit higher in the Chinese than in US whites i.e. the Chinese “community control group” at 1.3% vs. White American at only .1% in the Beaver 2013. (both American black and Chinese/Asian as well as Maori levels of 3R are than white American,)

    The Lu 2013 study (tables 1 and 2pages 891-892)—MAO 2R in Chinese “community control group” apparently at 1.3%, MAO 3R at about 54-77%:
    “Neither Antisocial Personality Disorder Nor Antisocial Alcoholism Is Associated With the MAO-A Gene in Han Chinese Males” (tables for both 3R and 2R)

    http://cyber.sci-hub.bz/MTAuMTExMS9qLjE1MzAtMDI3Ny4yMDAzLnRiMDQ0MTIueA==/10.1111%40j.1530-0277.2003.tb04412.x.pdf

    paper on just MAO 3R (page 2: roughly, from highest rate to lowest: Chinese, Pacific Islander, African, Maori, Caucasian, Hispanic—the African, Hispanic, and Pacific Islander samples though were both males and females, whereas the other groups had only males, which can obscure the results since I believe males tend to have it more.)

    https://www.researchgate.net/publication/6466626_Monoamine_Oxidase_Addiction_and_the_Warrior_Gene_Hypothesis

    It also may be complicated by the fact that it even seems that the different variants of MAO (and perhaps combinations thereof) may affect different groups slightly differently (though perhaps with different environments also having something to do with this).

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3575725/

    “In Caucasian populations, the 7-repeat allele is the second most common allele, followed by the 2-repeat allele. However, in East Asian populations, the 2-repeat allele is the second most common after the 4-repeat, and the 7-repeat is extremely rare (Chang et al., 1996). Studies with Caucasian samples have usually shown that risky/antisocial tendencies are highest among people with the 7-repeat allele (Ebstein et al., 1996) but sometimes show that these tendencies are highest among people with the 2-repeat allele (Keltikangas-Jarvinen et al., 2004). Studies on East Asian samples typically show that these tendencies are highest among people with the 2-repeat allele (Zhong et al., 2010) or the 2- and 7-repeat alleles combined (Reist et al., 2007).2”

    MAO discussed at this blog post and its possible environments confounds:

    https://notpoliticallycorrect.me/2017/10/15/maoa-race-and-crime-a-simple-relationship/

    • Replies: @Jm8
    , @RaceRealist88
  87. @res

    You seem unaware of Spearman’s Hypothesis. Read up on the literature. E.g.

    - Frisby, Craig L., and A. Alexander Beaujean. Testing Spearman’s Hypotheses Using a Bi-Factor Model with WAIS-IV/WMS-IV Standardization Data. Intelligence 51 (July 2015): https://doi.org/10.1016/j.intell.2015.04.007.

    - McDaniel, Michael A., and Sven Kepes. An Evaluation of Spearman’s Hypothesis by Manipulating g Saturation International Journal of Selection and Assessment 22, no. 4 (December 1, 2014) https://doi.org/10.1111/ijsa.12081.

    - Nijenhuis, Jan te, Michael van den Hoek, and D Willigers. “Testing Spearman’s Hypothesis with Alternative Intelligence Tests: A Meta-Analysis.” Mankind Quarterly 57 (July 1, 2017): 687–705.

  88. Jm8 says:
    @Jm8

    Edit: “…the Chinese “community control group” at 1.3% vs. White American at only .1% in the Beaver 2013 study…”

  89. @Jm8

    You’re saying south and east Mediterranean countries isn’t??

    Selected populations??
    And colored/mixed race south Africans score much higher than pure blood blacks in South Africa.

    (“are you saying”)

    Bahamas e Barbados are two little nations with few inhabitants, seems very good governments, members of Commonwealth, with sizable non-black populations namely among elites living there and there, specially Barbados. I’m totally aware about Bahamas demography but seems similar to Barbados.

    And I’m not suggesting (underlyingly) that “pure blood” black populations can’t produce good societies, I mean, some selected populations.

    • Replies: @Jm8
  90. MBlanc46 says:
    @Anonymous

    I believe that there used to bea large Germanpopulation in Rumania. Perhaps that’s where the tech workers are coming from.

  91. @Jm8

    Unsilenced Science also heavily criticized my piece on twitter.

    I’m going to handle this on my blog this weekend. Singular genes are not causes for crime. It’s delusional to believe so.

    • Replies: @Afrosapiens
    , @FKA Max
    , @Jm8
  92. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @The Anti-Gnostic

    According to Becker’s data, Mexico’s average IQ is higher than Ireland’s, and about the same as Southern Europe’s.

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
  93. @RaceRealist88

    “Unsilenced science”

    Lol! Dude mostly talks about politics…

  94. Renoman says:

    That is sooo lowww it’s depressing, no wonder we have such awful Governments.

  95. @Factorize

    You don’t seem to understand the idea of sampling error. The DB dataset is based on a subset of the LV data. Hence, there will be more country-level sampling error, producing implausible outliers. It is not sensible to manually go over them and pick out implausible outliers.

    If one wanted to do something like this, one should compute an index of data quality, then correlate that with outlier status (residuals from S ~ IQ regression would be useful).

  96. @jilles dykstra

    100 is defined as British White levels, Greenwich mean IQ.

    • Replies: @utu
  97. no turtle.

    the reason is IQ tests are SOLD by retards like you as measures of innate ability rather than achievement. and intelligent people know that this is a distinction without a difference with the sole purpose of selling IQ tests and giving psychology PhDs something to do other than shovel pig shit.

    these same tests are normed on at most 2,000 people in any given country if they are normed in the country at all.

    psychologists don’t know the difference between words and things.

    psychology is a pseudoscience because psychologists have low IQs.

    sad!

  98. @James Thompson

    “However, if it is “far from culture fair” then we need to know which studies show that, and understand the arguments.”

    I am aware of one paper on the matter. It is a 2014 dissertation on the Tsimane, indigenous peoples of Bolivia:

    Because the Tsimane , like many populations in the developing world, are experiencing
    rapid transitions into the market economy, they provide a unique opportunity to
    investigate variation in cognitive performance as a function of schooling. In Chapter
    3 we find evidence that exposure to schooling drastically e↵ects performance on the
    Raven’s Colored Progressive Matrices cognitive test. The data suggest that within
    a population with cultural, genetic and linguistic similarities there are vast diifferences
    between villages when measuring cognitive task performance. In fact, there
    appears to be dose-response effect between schooling and Raven’s performance by
    age. Children with exposure to more schooling performed better on Raven’s, while
    non-schooled communities had no age effect at all. Attendance (used as a proxy for
    motivation) also proved predictive of improved performance on school based subjects, and Raven’s performance. Reading was the greatest predictor of performance
    Raven’s, despite controlling for age and sex. Attendance was also strongly correlated
    with Raven’s performance. These findings suggest that reading, or pattern recognition,
    could be fundamentally affecting the way an individual problem solves or learns
    to learn, and is somehow tapping into ‘g’. Presumably the only way to learn to read
    is through schooling. It is, therefore, essential that children are exposed to formal
    education, have the motivation to go/stay in school, and are exposed to consistent,
    quality training in order to develop the skills associated with improved performance.
    (pg. 83)

    http://digitalrepository.unm.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1016&context=anth_etds

  99. Jm8 says:
    @Santoculto

    “You’re saying south and east Mediterranean countries isn’t??”

    Somewhat/more or less, I said (see chart for comparisons): (to give a few examples from each region) at about the same range the Mediterranean (Greece at 89 , Italy 89, Malta 91, Spain 92—though there may be reasons to doubt the low scores for Italy and Greece which may be a little underestimated, as may a few of the others; e.g. the very low scores of Guatemala and Nicaragua are especially questionable), some Balkan—though they vary (Serbia 92, Slovakia 87, Romania 82, Hungary 96, Bosnia 95) and some South East Asian countries—though higher than some others (Thailand 96, Vietnam at about 94 according to the old data, Malaysia at 84, Cambodia 84, the Philippines 83, Laos 82, Indonesia 80) and higher than most of the Middle Eastern (Lebanon, Iraq, Iran, Jordan 79, Turkey 87, Palestine 75, Israel 90, Kuwait 89, Saudi Arabia 79) Central American/North S. American countries (Mexico 88, Costa Rica 87, Ecuador 73, Colombia 86, Guatemala 58, Nicaragua 54), and somewhat higher than the mixed-race Spanish Caribbean (Puerto Rico 72—though that seems suspiciously low for Puerto Rico—, Dominican republic at 86, Cuba at 83).

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3c4TxciNeJZWUx5bzBWZ1BuMUk/view

    “And colored/mixed race south Africans score much higher than pure blood blacks in South Africa.”

    True (as far as I know, though I’m not certain of the quality of that data), but coloreds were historically favored relative to blacks (by the preceding regime—and I believe the studies I mentioned were conducted soon/not long after the end of apartheid), and tended to be wealthier and enjoy (and be generally permitted) more education and higher living standards, so its not clear how much of the difference is environmental and related to factors such as those.

    “Selected populations??”

    I doubt they’re really selected. The black populations of both descend from slaves. The Barbadian samples were also even taken from people who had suffered from marasmus and kwashiorkor (or had it when they were children—the Barbadian samples were of course of adults, which have been shown to lower IQ significantly (any selection in the samples if any, would likely be significantly mitigated by that—selection could possibly even be negative as in meaning those in atypically/exceptionally afflicted by disease, though I don’t know)

    So it seems maybe it’s even possible that healthy Barbadian controls could score a somewhat higher (though I’m uncertain).

    “Long-term effects of early kwashiorkor compared with marasmus. II. Intellectual performance.”

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3119812

    “Relation of Kwashiorkor in Early Childhood and Intelligence at School Age”

    https://www.nature.com/pr/journal/v5/n11/pdf/pr1971371a.pdf?origin=ppub

    “Bahamas e Barbados are two little nations with few inhabitants, seems very good governments,
    members of Commonwealth:…”

    Yes, those factors likely do help: I would think (and I think would agree with you) that things like good government, widespread education (which is still much rarer in some other Caribbean Islands), relatively high living standards, and a relatively lower rate of tropical diseases (though they still have a moderate rate of a few of those diseases by first world standards), contributes to the better performances in those countries (and where the conditions are also significantly better than in some other—but likely not all—Caribbean and South and Central American countries (and some Middle Eastern). Also, relatively prosperous (for South America) Argentina and Chile score at 94 and 91 respectively, and Costa Rica—which is largely European in Ancestry, unlike most other central American countries which tend Mestizo-Indian—at 87)

    “…with sizable non-black populations namely among elites living there and there, specially Barbados. I’m totally aware about Bahamas demography but seems similar to Barbados.”

    They are about similar. There are significant non-blacks among the elites it’s true, but both countries are about 90% black in their overall populations (the non-black fraction is 10%, and the average inhabitant is primarily African genetically—about 85% (more so than African Americans are, who have more white admixture). The small non-black 10% (a category which also includes, not just the whites, but also some mulattoes—as is enumerated in the Bahamian census I cited in my comment at the link—and East Indians), would not make much difference even if it did score higher than the black majority (which it might do but not necessarily by very much).

    The score from the Bahamas is also similar to the result reported below which found an overall IQ of 93 (for my comments on the demographic see comments section) based on a representative sample of secondary (late adolescent) school students.

    http://humanvarieties.org/2013/03/12/hvgiq-the-bahamas/

    Also, the Horn Africa countries in the chart of the new Becker study. also score (Eritrea scoring at 69, Ethiopia 66) very low (as low or lower than the other African countries) despite the peoples there having on average about 30-50% caucasian admixture (from ancient Middle Eastern migrations).

    • Replies: @Santoculto
    , @Santoculto
    , @Chuck
  100. FKA Max says: • Website
    @RaceRealist88

    Because if this relationship were so simple, then East Asians (Chinese, Japanese) would have the highest rates of crime, and they do not.

    You argue like Steven Pinker:

    [T]he low-activity version of the gene is even more common in Chinese men ([55] percent of whom carry it), and the Chinese are neither descended from warriors in their recent history nor particularly prone to social pathology in modern societies.
    [...]
    He (deliberately?) ignores or does not seem to be aware of the high number of pathological gamblers among Asians/Chinese, that I pointed to above.

    http://www.unz.com/isteve/reforming-stuyvesant-hs-admissions-should-blacks-whites-team-up-against-asian-grinds/#comment-1814572

    Addressing Path[o]logical Gambling among Asian Clients

    Intentional homicide rate by country:

    Capital punishment by country:

    Source: http://www.unz.com/jthompson/intelligent-lifespans/#comment-1998894

    A selection of my past comments on the topic. You can search my Unz Review comments archive for even more comments and information on this topic.

    Currently, 55 types of crime are punishable by death in China according to Wikipedia
    [...]
    What many naive Westerners, who have not done any research into these matters, don’t understand is, that in order to maintain the social order and civilization in general in societies and regions of the world that contain and are inhabited by large groups of low-activity MAOA carriers, it requires harsh and swift punishments for even minor crimes to deter potential criminals, otherwise these societies and regions would drown in chaos and violence. At the same time letting people from these high-frequency low-activity MAOA regions and cultures move to the West invariably means that the West either will drown in chaos and violence if it maintains its mild punishments for crimes or that it has to become just as authoritarian and harsh as most other societies in the rest of the world.

    http://www.unz.com/jthompson/intelligent-lifespans/#comment-1999230

    This is what is important to understand — which many (White/Northern European) people in my experience still fail to realize — and what distinguishes lower IQ (Africans, etc.) from higher IQ (mostly East Asians and Jews) high-frequency low-activity MAOA carrier populations/groups: Higher IQ low-activity MAOA carriers can much better gauge and “calculate” risk than lower IQ low-activity MAOA carriers can, and therefore engage in very different types of crimes, and they do so often undetected and much more successfully than their fellow lower IQ low-activity MAOA carriers.

    http://www.unz.com/isteve/reforming-stuyvesant-hs-admissions-should-blacks-whites-team-up-against-asian-grinds/#comment-1821930

    Introduction: White-Collar and Corporate Crime in Asia

    In the case of Japan, criminological interest traditionally has been focused on the country’s much-heralded low crime rate. Given that the depth of the problem of white-collar crime goes far deeper than adjudicated cases, Japan’s remarkably low rate of common crime is likely eclipsed by the level of white-collar and corporate crime.
    [...]
    http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11417-010-9093-4

    http://www.unz.com/freed/iq-a-skeptics-view/#comment-1729705

  101. @Anatoly Karlin

    I will keep encouraging him to join in the project.

  102. Jm8 says:
    @RaceRealist88

    He says you ignore the 2R variant, but the Chinese study you linked does seem to show somewhat (significantly it looks) higher levels in the Chinese control group (at 1.3%), and the other Chinese groups (though unfortunately the samples there was not as big as one would like) compared to the white American rate (supposedly .1%) found by Beaver. He also recognizes the the 2R variant is high in both African Americans and Arabs. I wonder if that is a reference to the same study I found (and linked at your blog entry on MAO) that seems to shows MAO 2R significantly more common in Saudi Arabians (in a Saudi Arabian control group) than even in African Americans. I recall something like 15% Saudi vs. 5% for US blacks (someone also quoted the same thing I noticed in the paper at Cochran’s blog), but unfortunately can no longer find the full paper for free online.

    I will be interested to read your upcoming entry on the topic.

    • Replies: @RaceRealist88
  103. @Jm8

    Sorry I want to say: I’m not totally aware about Bahamas demography. I checked it in Wikipedia and yes Bahamas is significantly black but I can’t find any genetic study about this population. I think Barbados are more mixed and I read somewhere maybe in Pumpkin Person blog that this populations are descendent from different sources of enslaved black people than for example Jamaica or Haiti. Interestingly they still have sizable infant mortality if compared with first world countries. Costa Rica is not largely European, seems similar with Chile, a important minority of Europeans, but a majority of mestizo people. In all this cases we can see the impact of less proportion of chronically dysfunctional people on all this place (psychological factor) and good government (I mean, no dysfunctional leaders or at least no huge infestation of this assholes in the command of nation). I read in Wikipedia that tourism and banking are both huge economic sectors for Bahamian economy.

  104. Jm8 says:

    Edit: “…is primarily African genetically—about 85%, sometimes more (in both the aforementioned Caribbean countries; Bahamas/Barbados), and, as mentioned, somewhat less admixed than US blacks are on average”

    (Cont: to Santoculto:)
    A most recent study finds 87% African for Barbados (consistent with previous studies, and close to results from Jamaica, the Bahamas, and elsewhere in the British and French Caribbean).
    ‘Estimated African ancestry ranges from virtually 0 (Maya) to 0.87 (Barbados) in all the analysed populations.”

    https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms7596

    • Replies: @Santoculto
  105. @Jm8

    About African on the horn, they are not mixed race as American blacks, I mean, from the whole continent, because they are product of much more ancient admixture, time enough to happen many “things” in this region with this populations. Other thing is that they are mixed semitic/maybe also north African variant (in this aspect I don’t know) with subsaharians and not “white-Europeans”. It’s not also that supposedly fixed “black-white admixture = avg IQ 80-85″.

    I try to understand why super racist south African governments during apartheid period gave more benefits to colored people if this really happen. And I also wonder if some black south Africans during apartheid don’t accomplish “respectable’ socio-economic positions in that society, I mean, social differences within south African blacks.

    • Replies: @Jm8
  106. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @FKA Max

    Australia seems to have the highest gambling per capita:

    http://www.australiangambling.lv/gambling-news/australia-ranks-1-for-most-money-gambling-per-capita-in-2013/24498/

    According to a recent report in Foreign Policy magazine, Australians spent more money per capita this past year than any other people in the Asia-Pacific region. According to the American magazine’s “Sindex” study, adult Aussies spend $1,288 per year on average to fund their gaming habits.

    The report goes on to show that Australians are ahead by a wide margin. Though other Asian nationalities have more of a reputation for gambling, only the city-state of Singapore ranks anywhere near Australia on the per capita chart. All other nations in the Asia-Pacific region lose half or less of the amount Australians lost per capita.

    The sheer number of Australians gambling (in terms of percentages) is another remarkable feature of Aussie betting habits. The study shows that over 80% of adult Australian engage in some form of gambling throughout the year. This might involve lotteries, keno, bingo, sports betting, casino games, or poker, but one form of gaming stands out from all the rest. Most of the money lost each year is done through the pokies.

    Here’s some data on gambling losses per resident:

    http://knowmore.washingtonpost.com/2014/02/04/this-chart-shows-which-countries-have-the-worst-gambling-problems/

    • Replies: @FKA Max
  107. FKA Max says: • Website
    @neutral

    Unz Review commenter Afrosapiens has put it best, in my opinion:

    In fact, another picture emerges when we compare countries with the world’s average, replacing the eurocentric British Greenwich IQ of 100 by an universal IQ of 84 and thus giving a more accurate idea of what is normal cognitive ability by the standards of humanity. In this sample, China, the Philippines and Indonesia are representative of the top of the bell curve whereas Ethiopia, the United States and Germany are the only outliers left with respective Universal IQs of 81.6, 115.6 and 116.6. For this reason, I recommend the use of Chinese or South-East Asian normalization samples in international IQ comparisons.

    https://notpoliticallycorrect.me/2017/09/05/worldwide-iq-estimates-based-on-education-data/

  108. Chuck says:
    @andy

    re: “Bolivians with a higher IQ than Israelis? Surely there is a mistake there”

    Other samples look to be in the 70s range. For example:
    “DIFERENCIAS EN LOS VALORES PERCENTILARES DE LAS PRUEBAS DE VERIFICACIÓN DIAGNÓSTICA”
    In this, the Bolivian raven’s mean is below Argentina’s 10th percentile.
    Unfortunately, many of these studies/reports are not in English/German.

  109. FKA Max says: • Website
    @FKA Max

    Another important factor to take into account.

    Alcohol consumption:

    Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_in_Australia

    List of countries with alcohol prohibition

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_with_alcohol_prohibition

    Source: https://ipfs.io/ipfs/QmXoypizjW3WknFiJnKLwHCnL72vedxjQkDDP1mXWo6uco/wiki/List_of_countries_with_alcohol_prohibition.html

    Alcohol, Drugs and Crime

    Alcohol and drugs are implicated in an estimated 80% of offenses leading to incarceration in the United States such as domestic violence, driving while intoxicated, property offenses, drug offenses, and public-order offenses.

    https://www.ncadd.org/about-addiction/alcohol-drugs-and-crime

    • Replies: @RaceRealist88
  110. Chuck says:
    @Jm8

    re: “The score from the Bahamas is also similar to the result reported below which found an overall IQ of 93 (for my comments on the demographic see comments section) based on a representative sample of secondary (late adolescent) school students.”

    Barbados is generally curious — as the citizens do well on GMAT and GRE too, which reports scores by citizenship. As they participated in PIRLS 2016, we will have a better idea in December.

    Bahamas, not so interesting — but those papers are on my old desktop.

  111. FKA Max says: • Website
    @Anonymous

    Australia seems to have the highest gambling per capita

    Australia also has a very high per capita GDP: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

    Plus, it is a former penal colony so there probably is a higher prevalence of low-activity MAOA in that population:

    Stain or badge of honour? Convict heritage inspires mixed feelings

    And the fear that we might be cursed with a genetic predisposition towards criminal behaviour? A 2001 Victorian parliamentary report on crime in Australia found that, adjusted for population, Tasmania – with the highest proportion of convict descendants – had the second-lowest crime rate in the nation.

    http://theconversation.com/stain-or-badge-of-honour-convict-heritage-inspires-mixed-feelings-41097

    No Risk, No Reward


    Blunted insula activation reflects increased risk and reward seeking as an interaction of testosterone administration and the MAOA polymorphism.

    Stratified for the MAOA polymorphism (S =short, L =long), … The MAOA-S variant was associated with less automatic harm avoidance as reflected in response times on safe decisions. Moreover, after testosterone administration, MAOA-S carriers were more risk-taking.

    - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28603901

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @RaceRealist88
  112. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @FKA Max

    The convicts sent to Australia did not leave much of a legacy among contemporary Australians. Most Australians today aren’t descended from those convicts.

    • Replies: @FKA Max
  113. Factorize says:

    Emil,

    thank you for your reply. It helped me clarify how to interpret the IQ datafile. I had thought of these numbers as estimates of national IQs. Yet, after considering your comments, I think it would be best to understand the dataset as a compilation of the existing psychometric literature for future reference and research. Combining it with other sources (such as PISA) could help sort through some of the outliers.

    I found it impressive that many nations appear to have realized how important establishing baseline psychometric profiles could be for their development prospects. The recent large samples from Nigeria certainly stand out as an example. Does anyone know what is meant by “representative sample” ? My guess is that it would have been a great advantage if more of the samples had been labeled “random” and “representative”.

  114. Jm8 says:
    @Santoculto

    About African on the horn, they are not mixed race as American blacks, I mean, from the whole continent, because they are product of much more ancient admixture, time enough to happen many “things”.

    Possibly, it’s hard to know (re: “many things”. The migrations were mostly in the neolithic, with some maybe continuing later bronze-iron age) from Arabian and/or Syrian-like populations.

    Caucasian admixture in most of the Horn (in the largest ethnic groups) is higher than in African Americans (though it is, as you say, Mid. Eastern and not European) and averages about 35-50%
    I believe some of the smaller Cushitic tribes in Southern Ethiopia have less admixture (about 30-20% or ca. 30-15% in a few) but the larger groups (both Cushitic and Semitic speaking) and the countries as a whole mostly average higher (35-50%)

    See various admixture tables for various ethnic groups:

    http://anthromadness.blogspot.com/2016/01/the-mota-mistake.html

    “in this region with this populations. Other thing is that they are mixed semitic/maybe also north African variant (in this aspect I don’t know) with subsaharians and not “white-Europeans”. It’s not also that supposedly fixed “black-white admixture = avg IQ 80-85″.

    “I try to understand why super racist south African governments during apartheid period gave more benefits to colored people if this really happen.”

    General speaking, more advantages were given to (mixed) coloreds than to blacks and more to whites than to coloreds.

    regarding Bahamian ancestry:
    Bahamians average about 83-85% African genetically, about the same range as Barbadians and Jamaicans, and generally slightly higher than African Americans (who average about 75-83% African)
    (the below finds 75% for US blacks, but some studies find slightly more, about 80-83% on average)

    https://www.theroot.com/exactly-how-black-is-black-america-1790895185

    Re: Bahamians, there is one dna study: which finds about 85% African ancestry for Bahamians in new Providence—and probably about 84-87% for the Bahamas overall— (and similar high fractions for the other most populous Islands, the most populous island (page 21). This is not far from the 83-90% African fractions usually found for Barbados and Jamaica—and African Americans at the highest end of the African American estimate, which though, for them tends to be a bit lower.

    From ““The Peopling of the Bahamas: A Phylogeographical Perspective”
    T M. Simms 2012″:

    New Providence (by far the most populous Bahamian island, see population data below) is about 85% African in ancestry and about 15% European (the other islands vary (see below), but with the more African ones, generally having a larger part of the overall population.

    “The New Providence and both US African American populations share similar admixture proportions (16.3%, 15.9% and 14.6%, respectively) from Europeans “(page 22)

    “The G-test results (Supplementary Table 7) reveal statistically insignificant genetic differences between the Bahamian collections and several of the continental African populations (i.e., Angola, Equatorial Guinea, Guinea-Bissau and the Bantu group from Kenya) either before or after application of the Bonferroni correction. In addition, Abaco, Eleuthera, Exuma, Grand Bahama and New Providence were not found to differ significantly from the other New World groups of African descent (Haiti, Jamaica and the two US African American collections),”(page111)

    “Results of the admixture analyses (Table 5) indicate that the largest genetic contributor to the Bahamian gene pool is continental Africa, with Long Island, Abaco, Eleuthera, Grand Bahama and Exuma sharing approximately 65.4%, 75.0%, 80.3%, 86.7% and 90.4% of their autosomal component with the African collections,”(page113)—(my parenthesis: The islands the two lower average African ancestry scores comprise a smaller part of the overall population, the most populous two islands by far being New Providence and Grand Bahama.)

    (The Islands with less non-African admixture (overall, together)—like Grand Bahama, New Providence, and to lesser extent Exuma—have a much larger share of the population than the others):

    Long island pop. 6,094, Abaco 17,224, Elutheria 8,202 Grand Bahama 51,368, Exuma 6,928, New Providence 246,329

    http://www.citypopulation.de/Bahamas-Islands.html

  115. Europe’s future doesn’t look so bright. Look at where the majority of its immigrants are coming from and their national IQ:

    Turkey: 87
    Syria: 77
    Morocco: 81
    Tunisia: 85
    Egypt: 84
    Iran: 78
    Iraq: 87
    Libya: 81
    Saudi Arabia: 79
    Nigeria: 70
    Senegal: 70
    Sierra Leon: 70
    Ethiopia: 66
    South Sudan: 57
    Somalia: N/A

    And for the UK:
    Bangladesh: 73
    Pakistan: 80
    India: 83
    Romania: 82

    But maybe the magic dirt of Europe will turn them into IQ 100+ people…after another 10,000 years or so.

    • Replies: @George
  116. bjondo says:

    funny
    pointless
    and
    worthless

    unless

    one is applying to harvard
    to be a corrupt weasel

  117. FKA Max says: • Website
    @Anonymous

    Did you read the article I linked to?

    A recent report in Molecular Psychiatry identified a “warrior gene” connected to criminal behaviour. This inspired renewed speculation that a convict ancestry might make Australians more predisposed to violent crime.

    This fear of genetic contamination from convict ancestors has existed in Australia since early settlement. Between 1788 and the end of transportation in 1868, around 162,000 convicts were sent to the colonies of New South Wales, Van Diemen’s Land and Western Australia.

    An estimated one in five Australians has convict ancestry. In Tasmania, the figure is even higher. In 2009, 74% of Tasmania’s population was estimated to be descended from convicts.

    https://theconversation.com/stain-or-badge-of-honour-convict-heritage-inspires-mixed-feelings-41097

    These are not insignificant numbers/percentages and, in my opinion, they are the reason for the Australian “gambling habit/problem”.

    Remember, the population of Australia was only around 2 million at the end of transportation, and low-activity MAOA carriers are usually highly promiscuous. Among the Alt Right the NFL is known as https://altright.com/2017/09/24/trump-delivers-righteous-smackdown-of-negro-felon-league/ , looks like the AFL Australian Felon League — is the white people version of that:

    New research says footballers are often seedier than criminals

    The study, published in the Australian Psychological Society’s journal InPsych, subjected nearly 50 AFL footballers to personality tests and compared the results to similar tests conducted on 940 convicted criminals.

    The study found footballers scored significantly higher than both the social average and the offenders in measures of alcohol problems, anxiety, verbal aggression, sexual promiscuity and anti-social behaviour.

    http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/national/footballers-behave-worse-than-criminals/news-story/74af04116c3c99aba8ce82191f81484a?from=public_rss

    Source: https://guides.slv.vic.gov.au/earlycensus/keystats

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @FKA Max
  118. utu says:
    @Emil O. W. Kirkegaard

    What about SD? Is it forced to be 15 or just happened to be so for a particular test they had when they started the whole IQ shebang?

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  119. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @Anonymous

    According to Becker’s data, Mexico’s average IQ is higher than Ireland’s, and about the same as Southern Europe’s.

    And the Irish are the second largest ethnic group in America!

    Maybe that explains why China is beating the Hell out of the US of (Indispensible) America in the supercomputing, AI and quantum encryption game. Too many dumb Irish.

    More likely, though, it’s that America’s genius billionaires, having made it clear that Americans who study hard subjects in university will find their opportunity in the high-tech workforce severely limited by the H1b Visa racket (not to mention PC crap): it obviously destroys the incentive for smart kids to do science.

    It’s like telling you own blue collar workers, by offshoring their jobs, to basically go fuck themselves. Obviously America’s on the skids. Nothing to do with native IQ.

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
  120. George says:
    @Another Realist

    Europe’s future doesn’t look so bright.

    The migrants might be the smart ones.

    I have some doubts about national IQs below 70. I don’t see how people that are what in the US would be called retarded operate even primitive societies. How do they grow food, breed and slaughter animals, cook ect.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  121. Factorize says:

    Realist, it is much much worse than that, go to the url below.
    Click on fertility and click the time line forward.

    https://esa.un.org/unpd/wpp/Maps/

    As can be seen, we are already deep into global fertility collapse.
    These maps clearly explain what has driven global politics over the time frame shown.
    We are only getting started: global migration will soon exert even greater stress on developed
    nations.

    The next wave of migration to developed nations will be from even less capable populations in an even more desperate attempt to counteract our demographic disequilibria. When you look at the maps, you realize that a Mexican wall really is not needed other than as a political prop. Within the next 5 years Mexico will be below replacement fertility with the rest of South America to follow within 20 years. The US could always open their borders and give out free tortillas.

    As is very clear in these maps, 10-20 years from now Sub-Saharan Africa will be the only global source for immigrants. Given the psychometric profiles of many of these nations, the near term implications for most of the developed are profound. Notice that at the end of this century, nearly the entire planet will be below fertility replacement.

    Fierce competition should be expected for the dwindling migrant pool is available. There seems no great chance for a revival of socialism under such circumstances. A hard turn to the right should not be unexpected.

    • Replies: @silviosilver
    , @bomag
  122. On the topic of “Greenwich means” my suggestion is to fix not only the country (UK), but also the time and cohort (2000, PISA age teens).

    Small country that has been exhaustively measured + as of then was still largely homogenous, unlike the United States.

    Then work out all past and future national IQs from that reference point.

    Fixing time and cohort will become increasingly important since it now seems likely that we (First World) are going to start sliding down quite rapidly (actually according to some studies we already are). It would be useful to have quantitative assessments of the Frito effect close to hand.

    • Agree: Wizard of Oz
    • Replies: @Emil O. W. Kirkegaard
  123. George says:
    @Anonymous

    When they test iq they should also test reaction time. Reaction time might be a better judge of iq potential equally across cultures.

  124. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @CanSpeccy

    Oh, but now I see that Ron Unz already said what I said but more eloquently here, except he didn’t mention the deliberate intention of the US elite to screw their own people.

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
  125. woodNfish says:

    Japan as a country in North-East Asia with the highest GDP / head of 41,300 $ and a national IQ of 104-107, for example, is far below the US with a GDP / head of $ 57,400 and a national IQ of 97-99.

    I think it is ridiculous to compare Japans homogeneous population to the more racially diverse population of the US. Might as well be apples and oranges.

  126. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @FKA Max

    Yes, I did, and I was already familiar with the estimates of convict ancestry. 20% of Australians have some convict ancestry. 80% don’t have any convict ancestry, and of the 20% that do, it’s only a small part of their ancestry. I don’t see what the basis is for claiming that Australia’s gambling rates can be attributed to its convict ancestry.

    The AFL is also an unrepresentative sample, and AFL players aren’t comparable to NFL players in terms of criminality. They’re pro athletes who drink more, and are more aggressive and sexually active than the average, probably like pro athletes everywhere.

    • Replies: @FKA Max
  127. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @The Anti-Gnostic

    when you import millions of Meso-Americans and Africans and they and their descendants remain at persistent lower IQ

    Ron Unz’s examination (American Conservative November 28, 2012) of the intellectual performance of immigrant groups in America appears to refute this claim. At least it appears to refute the idea that the IQ of immigrant groups is fixed, or that immigrants of no great intellectual distinction are incapable of producing children and grandchildren capable of distinguishing themselves intellectually. For example, Unz states:

    Richard Lynn, one of the world’s foremost IQ experts, has performed an exhaustive literature review and located some 32 IQ samples of American Jews, taken from 1920 to 2008. For the first 14 studies conducted during the years 1920–1937, the Jewish IQ came out very close to the white American mean, and it was only in later decades that the average figure rose to the approximate range of 107–111.65

    In a previous article “Race, IQ & Wealth,” I had suggested that the IQs of ethnic groups appear to be far more malleable than many people would acknowledge, and may be particularly influenced by factors of urbanization, education, and affluence.

    The article should be read in its entirety by anyone who actually wants to understand the subject of race, culture, immigration, IQ and academic achievement.

  128. I recall reading an article (might be by Steve Sailer) that while individual country’s IQ may not make much sense, it makes sense when you look at it from a regional perspective. For the most part countries from the same region tend to have more or less the same IQ, so I decided to take a closer look:

    North West Europe:
    UK:98
    Austria: 100
    Germany: 102
    France: 99
    Belgium: 100
    Netherlands: 99
    Denmark: 99
    Finland: 100
    Norway: 103
    Iceland: 103
    Sweden: 98
    Switzerland: 96

    PIIGS:
    Portugal: 89
    Ireland: 86
    Italy: 89
    Greece: 89
    Spain: 93

    Eastern Europe:
    Estonia: 101 —> outlier (high)
    Latvia: 99
    Lithuania: 92
    Belarus: 97
    Poland: 96
    Ukraine: 92

    Czech Republic: 96
    Slovakia: 88 —–> outlier (low)
    Hungary: 96

    Romania: 82 —–> outlier (low)
    Moldova: 92
    Bosnia: 96
    Croatia: 99 —–> outlier (high)
    Slovenia: 96
    Serbia: 93
    Bulgaria: 90

    Russia: 95

    Next up: Mideast

    • Replies: @Santoculto
  129. Middle East:

    Turkey: 87
    Syria: 77
    Lebanon: 83
    Jordan: 79
    Israel: 91 ———–> highest
    Saudi Arabia: 79
    Oman: 84
    Yemen: 69 ————-> lowest
    Bahrain: 90
    Kuwait: 89
    Qatar: 88
    UAE: 75 ——> outlier?
    Iraq: 87
    Iran: 78

    Not sure how much the stability of the country has to do with the IQ here, Yemen is war torn and also the lowest IQ. Or is it the other way around, the lower the IQ, the less stable. But then Iraq is war torn and has an IQ of 87. Lebanon is also war torn at 83. Jordan is relative stable but at 79, UAE is rich and stable but only 75?

    Here I will include the South Asian peninsula since I think they are close kin to the Persians:
    Pakistan: 80
    India: 83
    Bangladesh: 75
    Sri Lanka: 89 —-> highest
    Nepal: 58 —–> lowest

    So, compared with Iran, India & Pakistan are not out of line.

  130. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @CanSpeccy

    “Deliberate intention.” LOL. It’s not that I have a tiny head, it’s that I wrote that while simultaneously attempting to boil an egg. The egg turned out better than the sentence.

    • Replies: @utu
  131. Factorize says:

    Anyone know what the gold trim around my above post is all about?
    Looks pretty flash!

    If this is meant as an acclamation, then I’m biting, I’m deeply honored and greatly pleased with myself.
    Not to be uppity or anything, though others might now want to address me as Mr. Factorize.

  132. CanSpeccy says: • Website

    In about 30 years, artificial intelligence will have an IQ of 10,000, says Softbank CEO, Masayoshi Son

    Does anyone know what that means? If you can apply the rules of logic and have the same information, won’t you get to the same place as a machine with an IQ of 10,000, though it may take you longer?

    Does it, in fact, make any sense to suppose that there is, qualitatively, such a thing as super intelligence, except as measured by speed and accuracy of computation and analysis?

    Or are we to understand that artificial intelligence, not only efficiently solves problems that humans might solve in due course, but that they can do things that humans could never conceive of doing?

  133. helena says:
    @jilles dykstra

    Biased in favour of E Asians?

  134. Northeast Asia:
    China: 106
    South Korea: 99
    Japan: 107
    Hong Kong: 106
    Taiwan: 108

    As a group NE Asia is the highest IQ group in the world. I’m quite surprised at South Korea’s lower number. Seem to recall it was higher by Lynn. Would be interesting to see where N. Korea is.

    Southeast Asia:
    Thailand: 96
    Cambodia: 85
    Laos: 82
    Vietnam: 94
    Malaysia: 84
    Singapore: 114 —-> outlier
    Indonesia: 81
    Philippines: 84

    The numbers in SEA seem to be correlated with the number of Chinese in their mix. Singapore is the outlier with 70% Chinese. Thailand is 12% Chinese while Vietnamese are closest in kin to the Chinese(I think anyway, I often can’t tell them apart). The rest are mostly of the Malay extraction, close kin to South Indians. Indonesia & Philippines each has about 3% Chinese. Cambodia and Laos have next to none. Malaysia is an interesting case. It is 22% Chinese. Lynn pointed out there is a large IQ disparity between the Chinese and the native Malays, but the country experienced a lot of brain drain the past 4 decades due to racial discrimination targeted at the Chinese, many of the brightest emigrated to Singapore, which probably explains Singapore’s high number.

    • Replies: @Jm8
  135. North America:
    Canada: 100
    USA: 96 —-> did we drop 4 points since Lynn’s study?

    Central America:
    Mexico: 88
    Guatemala: 58
    Nicaragua: 54
    Panama: 80

    We’re in trouble. This is our largest group of immigrants. Honduras and El Salvador are not in the study, I’m sure they’re not too far off from Guatemala & Nicaragua.

    South America:
    Venezuela: 80 ——–> lowest (explains a lot)
    Suriname: 89
    Brazil: 84
    Bolivia: 93 —-> outlier
    Columbia: 86
    Ecuador: 73
    Chile: 91
    Peru: 84
    Uruguay: 90
    Paraguay: 86
    Argentina: 95 ——-> highest (why is it still such a mess politically?)

    These guys don’t look too hot. I guess that explains the decades of banana republics.

    Caribbean:
    Bahamas: 91
    Barbados: 93
    Bermuda: 94 ————> highest
    Cayman Islands: 74
    Costa Rica: 87
    Cuba: 84
    Dominica: 73
    Dominican Republic: 87
    Haiti: 67
    Jamaica: 74
    St. Lucia: 62 ———> lowest
    Turks & Caicos: 82
    Virgin Islands: 77

    These islands are all over the place. St. Lucia is even lower than Haiti, hard to imagine.

    • Replies: @Another Realist
    , @Jm8
  136. Factorize says:

    CanSpeccy, the recent AlphaGo Zero result suggests that we are looking forward to an extremely, overwhelmingly power form of emergent artificial intelligence. I am already in awe and also somewhat terrified where this will take even near term. The level of performance recently achieved by the program is simply beyond the range possible for human cognitive ability.

    In the GoO demonstrations, the program started uncorking “divines”: basically truly inspired moves that everyone at first thought were unforced errors. This is where we are headed: a “divine” future. Things will start happening out of nowhere and it will only make sense as we roll ahead in time and we can see the consequences. Artificial Intelligence will move far beyond the range of human intellectual capacity. They turned off GoO once it had clearly exceeded anything that humans could achieve. If they were to keep it running, it would move to a truly supreme universal knowing.

    Everyone with even a minimal amount of brainpower must be rushing to this new gold rush. GoZ only required a few programmers for perhaps a year. The bar has been lowered, there is a whole bunch of real estate open for the taking. If they can find a way to generalize the result we could be in 20 foot of green goo faster than any of us will be able to find our life rafts. Build your Ark now while you still have time!

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
  137. Jm8 says:
    @Another Realist

    “Vietnamese are closest in kin to the Chinese(I think anyway, I often can’t tell them apart).”

    Not linguisically, though geographicaly part of the country (the sizeable northern end, but not the rest of the country) is fairly close to China, so maybe some of the Vietnamese (Northerners perhaps?) at least have more of a genetic affinity to them (I do agree they often look very similar to the Southern Chinese, the oned I’ve seen anyway. Maybe those tended to be northerners)

    Vietnamese though, is in the Austro-Asiatic family like quite a few other South East Asian languages (the are a few other families as well prominent in S.E Asia besides Austro-Asiatic: Tibeto-Burman in the form of Burmese, Tai-Kadai, Austronesian), not in the Sinitic family (with Chinese), or even Sino-Tibetan or Tibeto-Burman (groups containing Chinese, or that Chinese is related to)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austroasiatic_languages

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tai%E2%80%93Kadai_languages

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tai%E2%80%93Kadai_languages#External_relationships

  138. @Another Realist

    Wait, Ecuador is actually the lowest in South America. Bolivia doesn’t make sense, how can it be at 93 and the poorest country in South America? Wealth of countries in SA starting from poorest:

    Bolivia (Per Capita GDP $6,530)
    Paraguay ($8,776)
    Ecuador ($11,839)
    Peru
    Colombia
    Brazil ($15,941)
    Venezuela
    Suriname
    Uruguay
    Argentina ($22,459)
    Chile ($24,170)

    • Replies: @silviosilver
  139. Jm8 says:
    @Another Realist

    “These islands are all over the place:”

    True, and Puerto Rico at 72 (though low 8os in the old Lynn data).

  140. Okechukwu says:
    @pyrrhus

    given the subSaharan average of 70

    Says who?

  141. bomag says:
    @utu

    Why is it wrong? Say we give a kinesthetic learning test scored on the number of items stacked in a given time, and a certain Asiatic tribe’s score was normed to 100. The rest of the world could score an average of 86 on the same test, and that would tell us what we want to know.

    • Replies: @utu
  142. bomag says:
    @Anonymous

    what is “doing the same thing over and over again, getting different results, and wondering why that is”?

    LOL

    In their defense, weather reports around here from the different prediction engines are often quite different from each other (and often quite different from what actually happens!), yet I still think they are on to something.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  143. notanon says:
    @Factorize

    Why continue to argue about human IQ differences that typically are less than 1 or 2 SD?

    one reason is the denial of IQ differences is the basis for the systematic psychological abuse of white children in the schools over their “white privilege.”

    • LOL: Afrosapiens
    • Replies: @Afrosapiens
    , @phil
  144. An IQ of 89 for Greece is in line with the results of numerous studies, but the results for Italy and Spain are shocking considering both countries have consistently scored at or above the European average. To even entertain the possibility that the average IQs of these countries are below that of Bolivia-a poverty stricken country showing little evidence of mass upwards mobility-is absurd, and calls the validity of this study into question

    • Replies: @silviosilver
    , @Alden
  145. notanon says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    You have strong improvements in countries like France, Netherlands, Switzerland, Australia, United States; all countries that were already well developed throughout the 20th century.

    there’s a WHO pdf i found once which listed all the countries that introduced iodized salt and in what year – iirc Switzerland and the US were the earliest in the 1920s which supposedly increased average IQ (according to wiki)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iodised_salt#United_States

    In contrast, South Korea ekes out a miserable Flynn effect, even though studies show it was huge there, and the OECD Survey of Adult Skills 2013 show it to have by far the biggest cognitive gap between young people and old people (suggesting a very strong Flynn effect); this would make sense, since South Korea went from a Third World country in the 1950s to developed world status by the 2000s.

    apparently south Korea fish consumption went up roughly 3 1/2 times from 1960 to today

    http://www.helgilibrary.com/indicators/fish-consumption-per-capita/south-korea/

  146. FKA Max says: • Website
    @Anonymous

    I am frankly quite amazed how you casually dismiss all this information as supposedly irrelevant and insignificant.

    80% don’t have any convict ancestry, and of the 20% that do, it’s only a small part of their ancestry.

    This isn’t so much about the “smallness” or “largeness” of the degree of these people’s convict ancestry, since we are talking about just one or two gene allele variants being passed on down through the generations.

    All it requires for a person to have or not have a tendency to display anti-social behaviors in certain situations, and to rather fight than flight, is for them to have a different MAOA allele variant/gene expression. Either the high-activity or low-activity MAOA allele. This is not a complex polygenic formula or trait.

    The main factor is fertility rate. The only way to remove low-activity MAOA from a gene pool is for its carriers not to have any offspring or to have on-average fewer offspring than the rest of the population. As I showed above, the low-activity variant of MAOA tends to make one be more sexually active and thus probably leads to a higher-than-average fertility rate in this cohort. So unless Australia specifically has targeted/targets their convict ancestry population with some type of fertility reduction program, that section/portion of the population will only keep on growing and expanding.

    The only way to stop/prevent a family like the following, for example, to keep wreaking havoc on a city and the nation is for them to either voluntarily decide to have fewer children, or to force them through sterilization, etc. to produce fewer offspring:

    Nikko Jenkins’ extended family has wreaked havoc on Omaha for generations

    http://www.omaha.com/news/nikko-jenkins-extended-family-has-wreaked-havoc-on-omaha-for/article_7c5fcc81-9977-506a-8e8d-14f6f2f55e5a.html

    Source: http://owh-projects.github.io/sandbox/levering/

    Also on AFL players; these guys are not your average, ordinary, misbehaving athletes. They literally play by a different set of rules and behave with a different level of intensity on and off the pitch than American and European football and soccer players, in my opinion. Just the fact that Australian rules football is the most popular sport in Australia is an indication to me that the Australian population/public has a higher tolerance and/or desire for violent/blood sports than the citizens of non-former-penal-colony nations. Such a craving and (high) tolerance for violence is also another trait associated with low-activity MAOA.

    Bloodthirstiness in Australian Rules Football

    http://wesleyanargus.com/2017/08/31/bloodthirstiness-in-australian-rules-football/

    What drives our AFL heroes to become bad boys?

    But Melbourne sport psychologist Daniel Dymond disagrees that fame or wealth pushes footballers to transgress.

    He puts it down to a “risk-taking schema” developed by AFL players pushing themselves and their bodies to the limit.

    “We love to have high risk-takers in sport, so players tend to take high risks,” he said.

    “Taking risks is how they’ve learnt to get rewards – accountants get rewards by being risk averse, but you rarely see athletes succeed by playing it safe.”

    http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/what-drives-our-afl-heroes-to-become-bad-boys/news-story/4b5fee422c69daea0fba3bd40d321dc1

    I don’t know if it makes any sense for me to continue to discuss/debate these topics with you though, since you strike me as being…

    Fountains Of Wayne, Too Cool For School ;-) (With Lyrics)

    and therefore I am probably out of my league and depth here.

    Take care.

  147. @Another Realist

    Spain IQ 92?? Portugal 89?? Greece 89?? Ireland 86??

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  148. @Factorize

    When you look at the maps, you realize that a Mexican wall really is not needed other than as a political prop. Within the next 5 years Mexico will be below replacement fertility with the rest of South America to follow within 20 years.

    That’s absurd. What will Mexico’s population be out to, say, 2050 or 2060 or so? Well over 120 million. You don’t think a couple dozen million more would like to break into the USA over that time?

    The Great Southern Wall is a necessity, both practically and symbolically. Accept no substitutes.

  149. @Another Realist

    Suriname isn’t wealthier than Brazil.

    Also, in Central America (not on your list, I know), Panama moved ahead of Costa Rica years ago. That’s another nail in the coffin for the strict racial determinist interpretation of IQ and wealth.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  150. @jaddington

    I’m sure I recall seeing Greece rated as 95 on wikipedia at one point. (I didn’t bother to check for the source, though I assumed it was Lynn.) So 89 is still roughly in the same ballpark, but no self-respecting Greek would take having six points shaved off Greece’s score as anything but a kick in the guts.

  151. @notanon

    LMAO!

    Poor white kids… I sympathize.

  152. @George

    At the very least it means they are way back on the Flynn Effect escalator and apples aren’t being compared with apples.

  153. @FKA Max

    “You argue like Steven Pinker”

    I’ll take this as a compliment.

    Your comment is useless. I’ve quoted Steven Heine saying that MAOA is “the everything but the kitchen sink gene.” (Heine, 2017: 195)

    Good job citing white color crimes. MAOA and it’s derivatives are about violent crime. Re Beaver et al 2013.

    Your comment is useless. It doesn’t prove that those who have whatever MAOA allele commit crime because they have that allele.

  154. @Jm8

    I think I know which paper you’re referring to. Check Sci hub for it. Anonymous Conservative used the study to show how MENA people are more violent and rape more because of the allele. He’s wrong as is everyone else who invokes this simplistic, reductionist view of crime and its causes.

    I look forward to taking UnsilencedScience to school.

  155. @FKA Max

    *make map
    *find a relationship
    *”the cause is X because Y!”

    Stupid.

    Check out per capita fish consumption. Should we draw any causal inferences on that and IQ around the world?

  156. @FKA Max

    Plus, it is a former penal colony so there probably is a higher prevalence of low-activity MAOA in that population

    There are probably angels dancing on the top of my phone screen.

    Don’t make claims you cannot prove.

  157. someone here HATE white people…

  158. @FKA Max

    This isn’t so much about the “smallness” or “largeness” of the degree of these people’s convict ancestry, since we are talking about just one or two gene allele variants being passed on down through the generations.

    Prove your assertion. Show that they have high rates of MAOA then show that its a primary cause of crime they commit.

    All it requires for a person to have or not have a tendency to display anti-social behaviors in certain situations, and to rather fight than flight, is for them to have a different MAOA allele variant/gene expression. Either the high-activity or low-activity MAOA allele. This is not a complex polygenic formula or trait.

    This is dumb. All it requires for a person to have or not a tendency to display anti-social behavior . . . Prove your assertion. If you take one with the low activity allele and one with the high activity allele, will they act differently 100 percent of the time to the same stimulus? If you say yes, you’re clueless. Behavior is more complex than one gene.

    The main factor is fertility rate. The only way to remove low-activity MAOA from a gene pool is for its carriers not to have any offspring or to have on-average fewer offspring than the rest of the population. As I showed above, the low-activity variant of MAOA tends to make one be more sexually active and thus probably leads to a higher-than-average fertility rate in this cohort. So unless Australia specifically has targeted/targets their convict ancestry population with some type of fertility reduction program, that section/portion of the population will only keep on growing and expanding.

    Where is your data showing that they have a high frequency of the allele? Why do you make bold claims that this one allele is associated with violent crime?

    The only way to stop/prevent a family like the following, for example, to keep wreaking havoc on a city and the nation is for them to either voluntarily decide to have fewer children, or to force them through sterilization, etc. to produce fewer offspring:

    Nikko Jenkins’ extended family has wreaked havoc on Omaha for generations

    Was he shown to have the allele or are you assuming?

    I don’t know if it makes any sense for me to continue to discuss/debate these topics with you though, since you strike me as being…

    … too dogmatic in your position that one allele causes crime and violent/antisocial behavior. You’re very wrong.

    Do you think testosterone causes aggression and criminal behavior as well?

    • Replies: @FKA Max
  159. @FKA Max

    Maybe you ate telling this Australian descendant of three convicts (1796, 1798 and 1820 – the last pardoned, the former two married with the man a British colonial soldier by 1799**) something I didn’t know but I think of Australia in the populous South East particularly as having a low crime rate, especially violent crime. And it is quite possible that there is so little continuity in AFL football with its origins that the speculated convict connection makes no sense. When I played schoolboy Australian Rules football it was quite possible to imagine playing a couple of years intra- and between- University football and, if good enough, thereafter playing a few years as an amateur in what was then a state league (the AFL grew out of the VFL). And it is worth noting that the game was invented about 1857 in the never-convict colony of Victoria when Scotch College (Presbyterian) played Melbourne’s other major private school Melbourne Church of Englsnd Grammar School.

    ** my ex-convict great-great-great grandmother had 60 living grandchildren when she died and I am not aware of any criminal record amongst her eventually very large number of descendants.

  160. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @bomag

    In their defense, weather reports around here from the different prediction engines are often quite different from each other (and often quite different from what actually happens!), yet I still think they are on to something.

    It’s a real bad case of obsessive statistificating, is what it is. And, FWIW, people do that a lot. As long as they do no harm, who cares? As long as my tax money doesn’t pay for another two decimals of statistic certainty, be it IQ or microbial content of cottage cheese, it’s no skin off my nose. Even so, I cannot help but marvel at the blind men and the elephant.

    Can the weather, as a trend, be predicted? Sure, right up to the point where random variations in real-time atmospheric conditions at specific loci make their presence known.

    Someone up there in the comment-morass exclaimed about Argentina — as in, why can’t they get it together, nationally-spikking, they so smaaahhhht? Which induced some hilarity on my part — I’ve been there, drank the matte, walked the streets of Buenos Aires. Why is Argentina hopping on one leg? GO there, for crying out loud! Watch them being Argentines for six months, and you will KNOW “why”.

    But, no, it’s IQ. Ayup.

    • Replies: @bomag
    , @James Thompson
  161. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @FKA Max

    All it requires for a person to have or not have a tendency to display anti-social behaviors in certain situations, and to rather fight than flight

    Golly, such a blizzard!

    The guy referred to Australia, not endemic modern criminal behavior in the American Black (now largely self-imposed) gulag.

    Australia “convicts” were the sort of people the American Revolution characterized as being free men who wanted the jackboot off their necks.

    Context — it counts.

  162. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Santoculto

    Spain IQ 92?? Portugal 89?? Greece 89?? Ireland 86??

    Portugal? 89? Impossivel!

    • Replies: @Santoculto
  163. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @silviosilver

    Also, in Central America (not on your list, I know), Panama moved ahead of Costa Rica years ago. That’s another nail in the coffin for the strict racial determinist interpretation of IQ and wealth.

    An obvious and undeniable proof that proximity to an inter-ocean canal produces epigenetic effects acting to increase population IQ.

  164. bomag says:
    @Anonymous

    It’s a real bad case of obsessive statistificating, is what it is.

    I generally agree with you here.

    However, we have a bit of a political battle where the other side wants to ascribe near zero input from IQ to public policy decisions; any deviation from equality means more must be spent on nurturing. Thus we get a dialectical battle where one side screeches for more IQ sorting and the other screeches for more radical egalitarianism.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  165. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @Factorize

    Saying that AI will be “divine,” hardly explains what super intelligence is supposed to be.

    How does such intelligence differ qualitatively from the intelligence we are familiar with? What does it do, other than analyze in accordance with the logical rules we already know and use, or imagine other than by processes analogous to those manifest by humans now?

  166. @Anonymous

    Eu também acho….

    Portuguese jokes cannot be true…

    94*

    Or are you counting the ”new portugueses” [0-14 years old]*

    Would be interesting compare newest generations full of ”immigrants” in european and other euro-derived countries.

    Saint Flynn, do a miracle please!!1

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  167. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @utu

    Re: Deliberate Intentions and High Vibrational Thought

    Ha! My words were wiser than I knew. What is more, our elites screw us not only with deliberate, as opposed to unconscious, intent, but most likely they do it, as you point out, vibrationally too.

  168. aandrews says:

    What’s a “polygono shuffle” of the data?

  169. @Anonymous

    Obvious sarcasm but epigenetics is a real phenomenon.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  170. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @bomag

    Thus we get a dialectical battle where one side screeches for more IQ sorting and the other screeches for more radical egalitarianism.

    Not my point. I mean, it’s your point and you’re welcome to it, but my opinion remains that all political argument, ref. public policy, that is based on IQ, is specious.

    • Replies: @bomag
  171. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @RaceRealist88

    Obvious sarcasm but epigenetics is a real phenomenon.

    Of course. How else could the IQ of Panama be greater than that of Costa Rica? After all, it can’t have any relation to the amount of money poured into Panama by the US government, and by global corporations protecting economic interests related to the canal. Money has no epigenetic power. It must be the canal.

  172. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @James Thompson

    Share the secret.

    It’s not a secret. Go to Argentina; live there for six months, even a year. If you still believe Argentina should be more prosperous because it tests at a higher IQ level, you can then tell me all about it from a position of extant authority. I haven’t been there in 15 years — maybe it really WILL be all about national IQ if I go back now.

    • Replies: @notanon
    , @James Thompson
    , @Anon
  173. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Santoculto

    Or are you counting the ”new portugueses” [0-14 years old]*

    O que? Temos agora portugueses novos? ;-)

    This is a non-Ascii keyboard. I cannot Alt-Number to get accented characters.

    Personally, I liked the Portuguese in Brasil. They were always decent, earnest people, more honest than most. Not particularly intelligent, true, but who is? ;-)

  174. notanon says:
    @FKA Max

    As I showed above, the low-activity variant of MAOA tends to make one be more sexually active and thus probably leads to a higher-than-average fertility rate in this cohort.

    I’d say that is only true in environments where women could feed the resulting kids on their own e.g. hoe farming regions or modern welfare states cos dudes like that tend not to stick around and even if they do they spend all their cash on impressing the next woman.

    I wouldn’t be surprised if those genes had been slowly selected against for millennia for that reason (and maybe rapidly going up again since the state took over feeding their kids for them).

    • Replies: @FKA Max
  175. notanon says:
    @Anonymous

    If you still believe Argentina should be more prosperous because it tests at a higher IQ level

    I thought the issue with Argentina was it scores lower on IQ than you’d expect given their ancestry?

    (possible explanation? a lot of their water is naturally fluoridated and fluoride interferes with iodine)

  176. FKA Max says: • Website
    @RaceRealist88

    Why do you make bold claims that this one allele is associated with violent crime?

    If you read my first comment in this comments thread, you will see that I specifically make a distinction between lower and higher IQ/intelligence carriers of the low-activity version of the MAOA gene. I specifically pointed out that people with higher intelligence who carry the low-activity MAOA allele are more likely to engage in low-risk-high-reward white collar rather than high-risk-low-reward blue collar/common crime.

    This is recent news from Australia:

    ASIC examines tougher penalties for white collar crimes, set to triple corporate penalties

    The maximum penalties for breaking the Corporations Act have not increase since the law was enacted in 1993.

    These maximum penalties no longer reflect the seriousness of contraventions and may, some cases, be substantially lower than the potential profits from misconduct,” the taskforce said.

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-10-23/asic-examines-tougher-penalties-white-collar-crimes/9078042

    The following is another indicator for me that Australia is a “fight” rather than “flight” society, and likely has an above-the-white-average prevalence of the low-activity MAOA allele in their population gene pool:

    20 things about Australian working culture that can surprise foreigners

    Profanity has a natural place in the Australian vocabulary. It’s regularly used in workplaces to express frustration, used to exaggerate for effect, or for humour. For example, “bastard” is frequently a term of endearment in Australia and isn’t really considered swearing. But saying this, gauge the room. You wouldn’t drop the f-bomb in front of gran, or a conservative executive.

    https://www.businessinsider.com.au/20-things-about-australian-working-culture-that-can-surprise-foreigners-2015-3

    Then there are things like surfing in shark-infested waters, etc. that also indicate that Australians are braver and bolder than the average Westerner.

    Again, this does not have to be a bad thing necessarily, I am merely pointing out that, I believe, it is a factor in how a society operates, functions and behaves.

    The Australians, for example, handle immigration in a much tougher, and many say much better, way than the rest of the “cucked” West.

    One thing low-activity MAOA carriers are, for sure, not, and that is “cuckholds”. They are natural “bulls” or alpha males/females: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuckservative

    An example of such an “uncucked”, alpha Australian politician is Pauline Hanson, who probably has convict ancestry. She has four children from two different men, and has had many relationships throughout her life: Hanson has written about her difficult marriage where alcohol and domestic violence impacted her family.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pauline_Hanson#Relationships_and_children

    Source: https://www.nowtolove.com.au/celebrity/celeb-news/pauline-hansons-kids-reveal-mum-is-so-embarrassing-22426

  177. notanon says:

    However, these countries are, in particular, in the range from 95 to 105. Japan as a country in North-East Asia with the highest GDP / head of 41,300 $ and a national IQ of 104-107, for example, is far below the US with a GDP / head of $ 57,400 and a national IQ of 97-99.

    The general pattern of average IQ -> per capita GDP is proved by the exceptions – if they’re explainable.

    So for example external factors pushing per capita GDP up or down from where the IQ theory would predict
    - communism pushing down
    - Panama canal pushing up
    - Petrodollar pushing up
    - banking centers pushing up (until the economy collapses and it goes down)
    etc

    The interesting cases imo are the exceptions where there isn’t an obvious explanation for a disparity in IQ and GDP and places where tested IQ is lower than expected from ancestry.

    What would be interesting would be a list of exceptions both
    - where IQ and GDP per capita are above or below the predicted line
    and
    - where measured IQ is above or below the value predicted by ancestry

  178. @Anonymous

    Lived there for 7 years. Could you be slightly more specific?

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  179. Factorize says:

    silviosilver, you are quite right that demographics often can seem counter-intuitive.

    It is best not to look at headline population counts as they can give a very distorted view of underlying population trends. For example, it was only recently that the Japanese population was officially declared to be in decline, even while the number of births has decreased for many decades. A very large ice berg effect exists that can conceal directional changes over the very long term, yet once a new course is set demographic momentum will remain for many decades into the future.

    Consider Mexico. The total fertility in Mexico 20 years ago was nearly 3. This 1 baby per childbearing women over replacement drived and will continue to drive Mexican migrants to the US. However, when you roll forward and look at fertility patterns of 10 years ago, you see a total fertility at replacement.

    The implications of this change are quite startling. When moving from 3 to 2, you reduce the fertility in excess of replacement from 1 to 0. Thus, over the next 10-15 years migration from Mexico could greatly diminish, if not stop. Nearly all of Central and South America will make this transition over the next number of years. It should be expected in the future that essentially every nation in the Americas will be competing for intra-regional migrants, all of whom will live in nations with fertility below replacement.

    2035-2040 is particularly disturbing (see url below). In that time interval almost all of the world [except Sub-Saharan Africa] will be at or below the fertility replacement level. 7 billion people will fiercely compete for migrants from the few remaining surplus fertility nations (namely Egypt, Iraq, Yemen and the Stans).

    https://esa.un.org/unpd/wpp/Maps/

    The leverage that such migrants will have will be considerable. Many nations would be forced to fold as the bidding war for new citizens would make even tulips blush.

    It is not difficult to imagine that we are quickly heading to a world in which failed nations and failed ideologies are finally allowed to fail and vanish.When you review history you can spot some obvious examples of nations that did not have it together. Nevertheless, they blundered ever onward thanks to their typically high fertility rates.

    In a world of universally below replacement fertility a life of eternal failure will no longer be possible. Those nations that are not competitive will lose their population to outmigration to places which can more effectively create functioning societies. There would not seem to be a bright future for socialism.

    From what I can tell this scenario is already underway. Around our way, we are seeing a fair number of Russians and others that need a way out of their societies that they likely view as unable to offer them a viable future. It is not difficult to admire many of these migrants because they often have a good mix of skills (occupational, language, social etc.) that allow them to fit into our community. However, we should all be concerned about the heartland response when migrants in the years ahead might have very minimal or nonexistent skill sets and will require essentially a custodial state to manage them.

    • Replies: @Ron Unz
  180. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @FKA Max

    It doesn’t make any sense to continue debating/discussing with you since you apparently lack basic intellectual honesty. The NFL and US college football are more violent games, are extremely popular in the US, and have much more criminal players than the AFL does.

    • Replies: @FKA Max
  181. Ron Unz says:
    @Factorize

    2035-2040 is particularly disturbing (see url below). In that time interval almost all of the world [except Sub-Saharan Africa] will be at or below the fertility replacement level. 7 billion people will fiercely compete for migrants from the few remaining surplus fertility nations (namely Egypt, Iraq, Yemen and the Stans).

    I’ve never understood the logic of the near-universal MSM argument that declining fertility—or even declining population—is a problem. It’s obviously a “problem” for the holders of Capital since it bids up wage-rates, but why is that a problem for anybody else?

    One hundred years ago, Japan had a much lower population than today, and it was then considered over-crowded. So why is it a problem if the Japanese return to that much lower population? The Chinese government has been the most successful in the world over the last few decades, and it certainly isn’t seriously concerned about dropping TFR or a looming population decline.

    Anyway, it seems like a pretty trivial matter for a determined government to reverse lower fertility rates if for some reason that becomes necessary. Just pass a law that anyone older than 25 who’s still unmarried pays a tax rate 10 points higher, and anyone older than 30 who hasn’t had at least one child also pays a tax rate 10 points higher than otherwise. Taxaphobics could substitute large government payments for tax changes.

    The combination of those two factors—even if they had some exceptions here or there—would surely cause a huge baby-boom.

    The only obstacle is that such population-shaping measures are considered ideologically abhorrent and immoral by Western governments these days. Well, if the government thinks vaccination is immoral then eliminating contagious diseases like Polio or Mumps also becomes “insurmountable problems”…

  182. @FKA Max

    If you read my first comment in this comments thread, you will see that I specifically make a distinction between lower and higher IQ/intelligence carriers of the low-activity version of the MAOA gene. I specifically pointed out that people with higher intelligence who carry the low-activity MAOA allele are more likely to engage in low-risk-high-reward white collar rather than high-risk-low-reward blue collar/common crime.

    Citation? Even then, as I keep saying, the relationship is not so simple. Child abuse is a cause of the activation of the allele (reviewed in my article).

    ASIC examines tougher penalties for white collar crimes, set to triple corporate penalties

    The following is another indicator for me that Australia is a “fight” rather than “flight” society, and likely has an above-the-white-average prevalence of the low-activity MAOA allele in their population gene pool

    You’re assuming this based only on the knowledge that they’re more criminal. That’s dumb. You have no evidence for your assertion, you’re throwing shit at the wall to see what sticks. Nothing is sticking.

    Your anecdotes are literally useless and don’t explain a thing.

    Do you hold this same view with testosterone? Do you believe testosterone causes aggression and crime? I’ll answer for you: they don’t.

    https://notpoliticallycorrect.me/2017/06/18/why-testosterone-does-not-cause-crime/

    https://notpoliticallycorrect.me/2017/06/10/testosterone-and-aggressive-behavior/

    • Replies: @FKA Max
  183. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @James Thompson

    Lived there for 7 years. Could you be slightly more specific?

    N.B, Lest you have lost track of the specific topic, my reference was to Msg. 138:

    Argentina: 95 ——-> highest (why is it still such a mess politically?)

    If you lived there for seven years, you KNOW why Argentina is a mess politically, and no amount of IQ score will make an iota of difference.

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
  184. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @Ron Unz

    I’ve never understood the logic of the near-universal MSM argument that declining fertility—or even declining population—is a problem.

    What’s to understand?

    The corporate-controlled MSM leads the way in destroying the fertility of the Western nations with its promotion of every form of non-reproductive sex, and the condemnation of reproduction as the only form of sexual vice.

    Then the corporate controlled MSM demands mass immigration not only to keep wages down, obviously, but to boost corporate profits from land development, infrastructure expansion, etc.

    Thus low fertility is one part of a two-part program of national genocide: suppression of the fertility of the native-born, combined with mass replacement immigration.

    So low fertility of the Western nations is one Hell of a problem: a problem like the Holocaust but conducted on a vastly greater scale, with widespread support from a race of Holocaust survivors.

    • Replies: @Afrosapiens
  185. utu says:
    @bomag

    The issue here is whether scaling/normalization is additive or multiplicative or both. Any multiplicative sailing will affect standard deviation. Do you want it? Additive scaling does not change SD. What one uses for 100 is arbitrary but there are different ways to arrive there.

    To establish a linear scale one needs two points like the water freezing and water boiling points in temperature Celsius scale. For IQ scale they used mean or median and standard deviation of particular population of British people who were tested with some tests. The raw scores of the tests where scaled in such a way that resulted in mean=100 and SD=15. So those British people played the same role as water in definition of Celsius scale. Both IQ and Celsius temperature scales are linear but their zero point are arbitrary an thus meaningless. So it is meaningless to say t=40°C is two times higher than t=20°C because this is not what underlies the physical process but saying that the difference is ∆t=20°C is meaningful in terms of energy. But when we talk about temperatures express in Kelvins ratios have direct physical meaning. It is rather uninformative to say that your IQ or intelligence is 20% higher than mine while saying that you have 10 more IQ points is more informative.

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
  186. FKA Max says: • Website
    @Anonymous

    Most people watch the Super Bowl for the commercials and the halftime show, and players wear protective gear in American football:

    More people watch Super Bowl for the commercials, says Grand Rapids ad agency survey

    Growing number of people are tuning in to see the ads between the tackles, according to the sixth annual online poll conducted for Grand Rapids advertising and branding agency Hanon McKendry.

    http://www.mlive.com/business/west-michigan/index.ssf/2011/02/more_people_are_watching_the_s.html

    Millennials Are Watching The Super Bowl For The Commercials, Not The Game
    And the poll suggests that people don’t mind if performers lip sync during the halftime show.

    https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/yougov-super-bowl-commercials-game_us_56b105d3e4b0a1b96203f436

    The popularity of the NFL has been declining for a few years now, I think, and this trend has been accelerating since the national anthem protests began. This chart is from 2015, I believe:

    Source: http://www.businessinsider.com/popularity-nfl-mlb-nba-2015-2

    AFL players are on average definitively more intelligent and probably less naturally violent than NFL players, but that does not make them less “criminal”, in my opinion and in my book, as you can read in my comments above. It just makes them a different type/category of “criminal”: http://www.unz.com/jthompson/the-worlds-iq-86/#comment-2056845

    Intelligence is a or the major determining factor in how low-activity MAOA expresses itself as and in real-world behavior and actions.

    Kevin Dutton: Do Athletes Have Psychopathic Tendencies?

    Big Think
    Published on Jan 15, 2013

    Now where we start getting into the realms of criminal psychopaths is when we look at natural aggression levels and perhaps natural levels of intelligence. If you’ve got those characteristics right there that I’ve told you about and you happen to be naturally violent, and you also happen to be naturally stupid — not a very politically correct word there, but you happen to be low in intelligence – then your prospects, to be perfectly honest with you, are not gonna be that great. Okay? You’re gonna wind up smacking a bottle over someone’s head in a bar and you are gonna wind up in prison pretty quickly. Okay?

    However, if you’ve got those traits I’ve just mentioned to you and you are not naturally violent, and you are also intelligent, then it’s a different story altogether. Then, as the famous Reuters headline once mentioned, you are more likely gonna make a killing in the market than anywhere else.

    I agree with you that it is probably best to discontinue our discussion/debate on this topic.

    All the best to you.

    Take care.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  187. FKA Max says: • Website
    @RaceRealist88

    You have no evidence for your assertion, you’re throwing shit at the wall to see what sticks.

    Pursuing and telling the truth can be a messy and unappreciated business;

    http://www.unz.com/jthompson/the-secret-in-your-eyes/#comment-1815864

    • Replies: @RaceRealist88
    , @CanSpeccy
  188. @CanSpeccy

    And do you think spending days on the internet, crying over the existence of Blacks and Jews from your basement is doing any good to “your people’s” fertility rate? Or is it the mainstream media / jews that force you to be a pathetic cyber-warrior biggot instead of reproducing?

    You might say the above does not apply to you, but is applies to a good 90% of the commenters of this site.

    It’s always entertaining for me as a black guy. Seeing you guys get mad about interracial couples, or crying about crime like fragile little bitches, or simply just wasting your time caring about blacks and other non-whites whereas blacks and others would never give whites as much importance if they hated them too.

    In the meantime, “your people’s” fertility rate is collapsing and you’re blaming everyone you can think of except the endemic frustrated sexual loser heterosexual white male.

    Very entertaining.

    • Agree: Okechukwu
    • Replies: @Okechukwu
    , @CanSpeccy
  189. @FKA Max

    1) Social Darwinism is not Darwinian.

    2) The comment brings me to no citation for your claim. Provide a citation for your claim or retract your statement.

    • Replies: @FKA Max
    , @Anonymous
  190. Alden says:

    How did Becker come to the conclusion that Italians are low intelligence? Here is a site that shows Italy has the highest I of all White nations. One mistake this researcher did was to claim Hong Kong is a nation. It is not and has never never ever, ever been a nation. It has always been part of China, both when it was a British colony and now. It has some sort of Puerto Rico common wealth arrangement with the mainland, but Hong Kong is part of China. Hong Kong should not be listed as a nation anywhere. Because Hong Kong is an island in China.

    AVERAGE IQ BY COUNTRY

    These numbers came from a work carried out from 2002 to 2006 by Richard Lynn, a British Professor of Psychology, and Tatu Vanhanen, a Finnish Professor of Political Science

    Average national IQs according to IQ and Global Inequality (2002)

    [MORE]

    Rank Country IQ
    1 Hong Kong Hong Kong 108 NOT A NATION WHY CALL A PROVINCE A NATION
    1 Singapore Singapore 108
    2 South Korea South Korea 106
    3 Japan Japan 105
    3 China China 105
    4 Taiwan Taiwan 104
    5 Italy Italy 102 ITALY 102
    6 Iceland Iceland 101
    6 Mongolia Mongolia 101
    6 Switzerland Switzerland 101
    7 Austria Austria 100
    7 Luxembourg Luxembourg 100
    7 Netherlands Netherlands 100
    7 Norway Norway 100
    7 United Kingdom United Kingdom 100
    8 Belgium Belgium 99
    8 Canada Canada 99
    8 Estonia Estonia 99
    8 Finland Finland 99
    8 Germany Germany 99
    8 Poland Poland 99
    8 Sweden Sweden 99
    9 Andorra Andorra 98
    9 Australia Australia 98
    9 Czech Republic Czech Republic 98
    9 Denmark Denmark 98
    9 France France 98
    9 Hungary Hungary 98
    9 Latvia Latvia 98
    9 Spain Spain 98
    9 United States United States 98
    10 Belarus Belarus 97
    10 Malta Malta 97
    10 Russia Russia 97
    10 Ukraine Ukraine 97
    11 Moldova Moldova 96
    11 Slovakia Slovakia 96
    11 Slovenia Slovenia 96
    11 Uruguay Uruguay 96
    12 Israel Israel 95
    12 Portugal Portugal 95
    13 Armenia Armenia 94
    13 Georgia Georgia 94
    13 Kazakhstan Kazakhstan 94
    13 Romania Romania 94
    13 Vietnam Vietnam 94
    14 Argentina Argentina 93
    14 Bulgaria Bulgaria 93
    15 Greece Greece 92
    15 Ireland Ireland 92
    15 Malaysia Malaysia 92
    16 Brunei Brunei 91
    16 Cambodia Cambodia 91
    16 Cyprus Cyprus 91
    16 Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia 91
    16 Lithuania Lithuania 91
    16 Sierra Leone Sierra Leone 91
    16 Thailand Thailand 91
    17 Albania Albania 90
    17 Bosnia and Herzegovina Bosnia and Herzegovina 90
    17 Chile Chile 90
    17 Croatia Croatia 90
    17 Kyrgyzstan Kyrgyzstan 90
    17 Turkey Turkey 90
    18 Costa Rica Costa Rica 89
    18 Laos Laos 89
    18 Mauritius Mauritius 89
    18 Serbia Serbia 89
    18 Suriname Suriname 89
    19 Ecuador Ecuador 88
    19 Mexico Mexico 88
    19 Samoa Samoa 88
    20 Azerbaijan Azerbaijan 87
    20 Bolivia Bolivia 87
    20 Nauru Nauru 87
    20 Guyana Guyana 87
    20 Indonesia Indonesia 87
    20 Iraq Iraq 87
    20 Myanmar Myanmar 87
    20 Tajikistan Tajikistan 87
    20 Turkmenistan Turkmenistan 87
    20 Uzbekistan Uzbekistan 87
    21 Kuwait Kuwait 86
    21 Philippines Philippines 86
    21 Seychelles Seychelles 86
    21 Tonga Tonga 86
    22 Cuba Cuba 85
    22 Eritrea Eritrea 85
    22 Fiji Fiji 85
    22 Kiribati Kiribati 85
    22 Peru Peru 85
    22 Trinidad and Tobago Trinidad and Tobago 85
    22 Yemen Yemen 85
    23 Afghanistan Afghanistan 84
    23 The Bahamas The Bahamas 84
    23 Belize Belize 84
    23 Colombia Colombia 84
    23 Iran Iran 84
    23 Jordan Jordan 84
    23 Marshall Islands Marshall Islands 84
    23 Micronesia Micronesia 84
    23 Morocco Morocco 84
    23 Nigeria Nigeria 84
    23 Pakistan Pakistan 84
    23 Panama Panama 84
    23 Paraguay Paraguay 84
    23 Saudi Arabia Saudi Arabia 84
    23 Solomon Islands Solomon Islands 84
    23 Uganda Uganda 84
    23 United Arab Emirates United Arab Emirates 84
    23 Vanuatu Vanuatu 84
    23 Venezuela Venezuela 84
    24 Algeria Algeria 83
    24 Bahrain Bahrain 83
    24 Libya Libya 83
    24 Oman Oman 83
    24 Papua New Guinea Papua New Guinea 83
    24 Syria Syria 83
    24 Tunisia Tunisia 83
    25 Bangladesh Bangladesh 82
    25 Dominican Republic Dominican Republic 82
    25 India India 82
    25 Lebanon Lebanon 82
    25 Madagascar Madagascar 82
    25 Zimbabwe Zimbabwe 82
    26 Egypt Egypt 81
    26 Honduras Honduras 81
    26 Maldives Maldives 81
    26 Nicaragua Nicaragua 81
    27 Barbados Barbados 80
    27 Bhutan Bhutan 80
    27 El Salvador El Salvador 80
    27 Kenya Kenya 80
    28 Guatemala Guatemala 79
    28 Sri Lanka Sri Lanka 79
    28 Zambia Zambia 79
    29 Democratic Republic of the Congo Democratic Republic of the Congo 78
    29 Nepal Nepal 78
    29 Qatar Qatar 78
    30 Comoros Comoros 77
    30 South Africa South Africa 77
    31 Cape Verde Cape Verde 76
    31 Congo Congo 76
    31 Mauritania Mauritania 76
    31 Senegal Senegal 76
    32 Mali Mali 74
    32 Namibia Namibia 74
    33 Ghana Ghana 73
    34 Tanzania Tanzania 72
    35 Central African Republic Central African Republic 71
    35 Jamaica Jamaica 71
    35 Saint Vincent and the Grenadines Saint Vincent and the Grenadines 71
    35 Sudan Sudan 71
    36 Antigua and Barbuda Antigua and Barbuda 70
    36 Benin Benin 70
    36 Botswana Botswana 70
    36 Rwanda Rwanda 70
    36 Togo Togo 70
    37 Burundi Burundi 69
    37 Côte d’Ivoire Côte d’Ivoire 69
    37 Ethiopia Ethiopia 69
    37 Malawi Malawi 69
    37 Niger Niger 69
    38 Angola Angola 68
    38 Burkina Faso Burkina Faso 68
    38 Chad Chad 68
    38 Djibouti Djibouti 68
    38 Somalia Somalia 68
    38 Swaziland Swaziland 68
    39 Dominica Dominica 67
    39 Guinea Guinea 67
    39 Guinea-Bissau Guinea-Bissau 67
    39 Haiti Haiti 67
    39 Lesotho Lesotho 67
    39 Liberia Liberia 67
    39 Saint Kitts and Nevis Saint Kitts and Nevis 67
    39 São Tomé and Príncipe São Tomé and Príncipe 67
    40 The Gambia The Gambia 66
    41 Cameroon Cameroon 64
    41 Gabon Gabon 64
    41 Mozambique Mozambique 64
    42 Saint Lucia Saint Lucia 62
    43 Equatorial Guinea Equatorial Guinea 59
    Legal notices • Traduire en français • Login Last update: 10/24/2017 (V.9973)

  191. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @FKA Max

    I think your link to a comment on another thread is not the one you meant, since the it relates to a comment in which you compliment me on my intelligence (much appreciated, however mistaken) but say nothing about MAOA genes.

    However, I did have a theory (based on the work of Stanley Schacter) about monoamines and personality more or less along the lines you suggest, but I later came to doubt that that the theory is correct, although the discussion was so long ago I forget now what I came to see as the flaw in the argument.

  192. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @Wizard of Oz

    I think your bragging about your sheep-stealing ancestors, is totally uncalled for and, indeed, ridiculous.

    Do you seriously believe that there is anyone on the face of the planet among whose ancestors there is not at least one, and probably dozens or maybe thousands, of murderers, rapists, thieves, and traitors.

    In fact those Aussie convicts were nothing much worse than the jay walkers or un-PC bloggers who, confined to the hulks, demanded, and were granted, transportation at the downtrodden British taxpayer’s expense.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  193. Okechukwu says:
    @Afrosapiens

    Very well said. I can’t see how a rational, happy, well-adjusted and successful person would devote as much time and energy as these people do to hating black people. Or Jews for that matter. Life’s too short. On another site one of these losers told me that there weren’t enough white women to breed with. I told him I could breed with dozens of white women if I wanted to and I’m black.

    • Replies: @Afrosapiens
    , @silviosilver
  194. @Wizard of Oz

    I wondered if I was being too sensitively defensive about the convict ancestry! My mother and her sisters were brought up at a time when they didn’t even know about the convict ancestry on their respectable businessman father’s side. I didn’t know about it until cousins with time on their hands (their hands not HM’s) started turning up stuff from archives and libraries and, more recently, young relatives have found National Library material on line which actually differs from what the earlier explorations found. (E.g. as to which of the descendants the founding matriarch was living with in her 80s as a pillar of the Anglican church – though born a Catholic like her first, Irish, husband….).

    While the Irishman was probably a boaster about his revolutionary credentials and I guess burned some English landlords haystacks, his wife, the future matriarch, who arrived with a child and had been living in London with a forger who had forged the note for which her first partner was hanged, was convicted of a trivial offence and sent on one of the “female transports” by which the social engineers, including the Old Bailey judges, provided the colony with women. The Irishman must have had something good in his genes. His children were long lived and one son, born after he died, lived to be 98.

  195. @Okechukwu

    Very well said. I can’t see how a rational, happy, well-adjusted and successful person would devote as much time and energy as these people do to hating black people. Or Jews for that matter. Life’s too short. On another site one of these losers told me that there weren’t enough white women to breed with. I told him I could breed with dozens of white women if I wanted to and I’m black.

    Same here, never had trouble dating white chicks although they’re not even my favorite type. And never heard a black guy crying like “oh white girls don’t want to date me cuz *add whatever excuse that’s oblivious of one’s own flaws*”.

    Many of these guys would certainly need a sex ratio of 20 white females for one male in the population to get a chance in the white department of the dating market. But that won’t do much for their reproductive prospects since virtually no girl would reproduce with such pathetic creepy losers.

    • Agree: Okechukwu
  196. @Alden

    When you lecture others pedantically it is a good idea to be right. Hong Kong is/was mostly not an island though the main island was no doubt central to the attractions of what the British acquired by treaty. And was it “always” part of China? Since when? More to the point is the fact that for various purposes the treatment of separate polities with differently constituted populations as entities whose stats might be different for reasons worth exploring makes a lot of sense. E.g. off the top of my head it might be interesting to know how stats from Hong Kong and Shanghai differed over a 100 years or so and to explore why. (In the case of results of IQ tests the answers could be very varied in character).

  197. @Alden

    Here’s something better:

    “… school quality in the South is actually inferior and that this quality relates to level of learning.” (pg 468; https://www.gwern.net/docs/iq/2010-cornoldi.pdf)

    We have this table from this paper:

    https://www.researchgate.net/publication/236970447_The_case_against_Lynn%27s_doctrine_that_population_IQ_determines_levels_of_socio-economic_development_and_public_health_status

    So if PISA test scores are tests of educational attainment and not intelligence (http://www.scienzeformazione.unipa.it/doc/225/D_Amico__Cardaci__Di_Nuovo___Naglieri_2012.pdf) and PISA results are strongly affected by school quality (which is lower in the South, see above cite), then the differences in scores must come down to differences in environment, not magic MENA genes that Lynn et al speak of.

    In regards to the amoral familism hypothesis Othat Southern Italians differ in amoral familism in regards to Northern Italians)(http://www.encyclopedia.com/social-sciences/dictionaries-thesauruses-pictures-and-press-releases/amoral-familism), this has been disproved:

    “However, our data do not confirm the stereotype that northern and southern Italians differ in their tendency to amoral familism as defined by Banfield.”

    http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0022022116644986

  198. @Ron Unz

    There is a difference when we have a planned reduction of population and when we have a near risk to extinction because the number of young and fertile japaneses is expected that will reduce a lot from today.

  199. Factorize says:

    Ron Unz, thank you for responding. There were many considerations behind my comment so I am glad that you have given me an opportunity to address them.

    There will be an enormous net benefit from the global demographic collapse now underway. This is a glorious triumphant moment for humanity. Human rights laws will strengthen and global conflicts will become less and less frequent as fertility moves toward a more stable equilibrium. Excessive reproduction has been an enormously destructive force during human history. By finally gaining control over fertility, a great many of the seemingly intractable social, political and economic problems should move to resolution.

    I am greatly looking forward to witnessing these improvements as we move toward the next century, at which time all the nations of the world will likely have TFRs below replacement levels.

    For example, as you noted, capital could be used to increase the productivity, wages and working conditions of workers who will be in short supply everywhere. The Japanese model of innovating in order to maintain production without the need for in-migration will become standard. Developed nations have pursued a Sisyphean policy of spending vast resources to develop the human capital of their citizens, only to watch as migrants from developing nations displaced their citizens in the domestic job market. Any task can be done safely and efficiently using innovative technology, though if wage rates drift low enough such innovation will not occur.

    Given all of these benefits, why did I find the 2035-40 map so disturbing?

    There are a number of socio-economo-political forces that are highly motivated by endless population growth, without regards for the common good. This is clearly seen by the relentless influx of yet more migrants, at the same time that there has been one unprovoked attack after another against typically civilian targets all over the world. This development is difficult to reconcile until the full extent of the demographic crisis in the West is fully appreciated. Permitting a nearly unopposed flow of potential terrorists into our nations is a natural consequence of fertility rates far below replacement.

    Now, the 2035 map.

    This medium term fertility projection shows that we are moving towards the last frontier of global fertility surplus: Sub-Saharan Africa. Somehow terrorists have become normalized, is it really now that exceptionally unlikely that the substantial cultural, technological and likely psychometric differences between SSA and ROW will not also be overlooked? It will take several decades for SSA to move below replacement level fertility. During that time it will likely be highly tempting for many nations to attempt to counteract their fertility collapse by sourcing migrants from Africa. A large concern would be that the world that is approaching will be even more technologically intense then the world of today. Filling the bleachers with people who have largely rejected a techno lifestyle would only lead to their being an inmate of an eternal custodial state.

  200. I still don’t know what is the relevance of certain “people” here if we know they are demented liars and megalomaniacals… Would be good some discrimination here to improve quality of debate… less mercy with descendent of enslaved… “humans”…

    There are fantastic black people, they are not the majority in most place, specially here. Indeed such inferior traits that make some blacks insufferably assholes seems well represented here.

    Self called “protectors of black people”…

    • Replies: @utu
    , @Afrosapiens
    , @Anonymous
  201. bomag says:
    @Anonymous

    my opinion remains that all political argument… that is based on IQ, is specious

    You don’t have to base policy on IQ, but you should include it; otherwise you are leaving information on the table.

    “You might not be interested in IQ, but IQ is interested in you.”

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  202. @CanSpeccy

    My reply to you ended up as #200 – as at present numbered.

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
  203. utu says:
    @Santoculto

    such inferior traits that make some blacks insufferably assholes

    I always thought that you broadcast from Brazil. Does what you said about Blacks come from your experience of them in Brazil? Which are greater insufferably assholes: Brazilian or American Blacks?

    • Replies: @Santoculto
  204. @Santoculto

    We could also get rid of those who don’t write in English.

    • Agree: RaceRealist88
    • Replies: @Santoculto
  205. FKA Max says: • Website
    @RaceRealist88

    How can I retract a claim that has not been properly researched yet?

    Not only did his brain scans look suspiciously like those of the murderers, he later found out that he also possesses the MAOA-L gene that’s been linked to aggression and antisocial behavior.
    [...]
    Fallon thinks that the reason he turned out to be a relatively normal, nonviolent person, despite having this gene, is that he had a good upbringing (my comment here:And he probably has a respectable IQ/intelligence as well. In my opinion, intelligence is more determinant in this context than environment/abuse). But growing up in a harsher environment could have tipped him toward a darker path. “If [the brain] sees a hostile world, the only way to survive is to be hostile,” Fallon said, whereas “if it sees a normal world, it will be normal.”

    http://www.businessinsider.com/psychopath-gene-2015-7

    I have not listened to this podcast, but it looks like the interviewer briefly brought up James Fallon’s IQ:

    One of my favorite quotes is from Ben Franklin, who said, “The beauty of rationalization is you can rationalize anything” And you, with your 150+ IQ are a really, really good rationalizer.

    https://www.opednews.com/Podcast/James-Fallon-Psychopath-N-by-Rob-Kall-Bipolar_Brain_Caring_Dominance-140107-712.html

    James Fallon is being politically correct here by not bringing up IQ — unlike Kevin Dutton http://www.unz.com/jthompson/the-worlds-iq-86/#comment-2056979 — in connection with psychopathy and low-activity MAOA. Fallon is doing the reverse or inverse of Steven Pinker, who talks about differences in IQ but questions the validity of “warrior gene” research. James Fallon talks about the “warrior gene” and psychopathy, but never, to my knowledge, brings up IQ in this context.

    Differentiation is made between:[2][11]

    successful psychopaths – corporate climbers involved in irregular crime who tend to have had more privileged background, high IQ, and little risk of legal penalties.
    unsuccessful psychopaths – involved in regular crime who tend to have had less privileged backgrounds, low IQ, and much higher risk of legal penalties.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy_in_the_workplace#General

    You seem to be vacillating between those two incomplete positions.

    Plus, you don’t seem to know the difference between the 2-repeat and 3-repeat MAOA allele — Caucasian males carry the 3-repeat allele at a rate of about 36% and the 2-repeat allele at a rate of about 0.2% http://theunsilencedscience.blogspot.com/2013/01/monoamine-oxidase-bibliography.html — and still cite the erroneous 77% figure for the frequency of the 3-repeat MAOA allele in Chinese males in your article :

    as that the races differed in a gene called MAOA-L, which has a frequency in Caucasians at .1 percent (Beaver et al, 2013), 54 percent in Chinese people (Lu et al, 2013; as well as 77 percent for the 3r MAOA allele; Lea and Chambers, 2007),

    https://notpoliticallycorrect.me/2017/10/15/maoa-race-and-crime-a-simple-relationship/

    I previously debunked this, but I guess I must do so, again. A study by Lu et al found that 42 Taiwanese men, or 55% of their 77-subject control sample, had the 3-repeat allele of MAOA. Lea and Chambers copied the information incorrectly.

    http://theunsilencedscience.blogspot.com/2011/10/kill-popular-science.html

    I think you need to do some correcting and retracting of your own on your article and you should watch or re-watch Unsilenced Science‘s Youtube video on this subject:

    The Stupid Stupidity Surrounding the Warrior Gene, MAOA, is Stupid

  206. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @Afrosapiens

    Thanks for making a point that I might have made but did not; namely, that many immigrants to European society of whom you and your Afro bud are evidently prime examples, have a typical settler mentality, i.e., fuck the natives and give them poxy blankets if they’re stupid enough to accept them (or today’s equivalent, a good indoctrination in politically correct self-hatred).

    Needless to say (needless, that is, to anyone who read what I said), the allegations you make about my views on immigrants are entirely of your own imagination. Indeed, I am, in fact, an immigrant myself, but nevertheless opposed to mass immigration as a method of genocide against indigenous people, wherever such a method is employed.

    The consequence to interlopers such as youself of the vicious attitude you adopt to native Europeans may prove hazardous, since it may convince Europeans en mass that the only effective response they can adopt in dealing with the existential crisis created by mass immigration is mass expulsion of people such as you — or maybe just slaughter. Such things happen.

    • Replies: @Afrosapiens
    , @Okechukwu
  207. Dave Pinsen says: • Website
    @Anonymous

    Is it still a mess politically? It seems to have taken a turn for the better this year, with the election of Macri, prosecution of his predecessor, etc.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  208. @utu

    Americans just by this revanchist culture.

  209. @Afrosapiens

    Still irrelevant…with u knowledg

    • Replies: @Afrosapiens
  210. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @bomag

    You don’t have to base policy on IQ, but you should include it; otherwise you are leaving information on the table.

    Meh. Thumb-sucking statistics are information. For determining and establishing social policy, IQ is meaningless.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  211. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Santoculto

    Onde você mora? Rio ou Sao Paulo? Porque você nao visita um instituto cultural? Ainda existe os ICBEUs e CCBEUs?

    You need live practice in conversational American English. Your vocabulary is good, but your sentence construction and usage is still not quite right. Much improvement over the two years, but not yet “good”.

  212. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @RaceRealist88

    Don’t ask him for citations. He will just cite and copy/paste older comments of his that cite and copy/paste other older comments of his that cite and copy/paste older comments of his etc.

    Ask him to be more clear, precise, and succinct, rather than making vague claims and then posting walls of text from his older comments.

  213. @CanSpeccy

    Thanks for making a point that I might have made but did not; namely, that many immigrants to European society of whom you and your Afro bud are evidently prime examples, have a typical settler mentality, i.e., fuck the natives and give them poxy blankets if they’re stupid enough to accept them (or today’s equivalent, a good indoctrination in politically correct self-hatred).

    I’m only referring to a certain kind of natives, the ones that live in the comments sections of this site and the likes. The rest of the population is just fine and I respect them as I respect any human being.

    Needless to say (needless, that is, to anyone who read what I said), the allegations you make about my views on immigrants are entirely of your own imagination. Indeed, I am, in fact, an immigrant myself, but nevertheless opposed to mass immigration as a method of genocide against indigenous people, wherever such a method is employed.

    I said nothing about immigrants, I also said that my remarks could not apply to you personally although the projection was quite obvious. I won’t comment more on your paranoid and hilarious mentions of a genocide against whites. Except to say it’s just hilarious.

    You know, you were talking about the mainstream media discouraging whites from breeding, right? Now think a minute. Do you think a lady wants children with someone who’s afraid of a totally imaginary genocide? Do you think any woman wants to deal with such foolish insecurities? Do you have a notion of what it’s like to be a man instead of crybaby that obsesses with fictional matters? Do you ever wonder why females are so absent in these forums? Aren’t they supposed to be worried by the white genocide as well? Or is this actually just a white male issue?

    The consequence to interlopers such as youself of the vicious attitude you adopt to native Europeans may prove hazardous, since it may convince Europeans en mass that the only effective response they can adopt in dealing with the existential crisis created by mass immigration is mass expulsion of people such as you — or maybe just slaughter. Such things happen.

    Don’t worry, 98% of native Europeans of my generation would cosign my remarks on the obvious sexual frustration that is rampant on these forums. And in addition to this, interlopers like me are becoming friends, husbands, fathers, sons in law of those Europeans who do have a life, and so will our children. And you’re the one being marginalized with your genocidal thoughts.

    • Agree: Okechukwu
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @utu
  214. @Santoculto

    한국어(한국 한자: 韓國語) 또는 조선말(朝鮮말)은 제주특별자치도를 포함한 한반도 및 그 부속 도서와 한민족 거주 지역에서 쓰이는 언어로, 대한민국에서는 한국어, 한국말이라고 부르고, 조선민주주의인민공화국과 중화인민공화국에서는 조선어, 조선말이라고 부르며, 우즈베키스탄, 러시아 등 구 소련의 고려인들 사이에서는 고려말(高麗말)이라고 부른다.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  215. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @FKA Max

    This is a good example of your lack of intellectual honesty. You concede that the NFL is the most popular sport in America by a wide margin, and even provide data to that effect, but make irrelevant remarks about the Super Bowl and commercials. You concede that AFL players are not criminal like NFL players are, but then claim that AFL players are inveterate criminals in some unspecified fashion.

    • Agree: Alden
    • Replies: @FKA Max
  216. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Dave Pinsen

    Is it still a mess politically? It seems to have taken a turn for the better this year, with the election of Macri, prosecution of his predecessor, etc.

    I’ve heard it’s better, but I haven’t been back in 15 years.

  217. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Afrosapiens

    Ah, now I know who you are, and your specious remarks can be judiciously ignored.

    And Ron Unz, don’t be such a racist. The post you deleted was intended solely to produce a reaction. Not necessary now, but hey, getting to the point works gangbusters sometimes.

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
  218. @Ron Unz

    Some countries may need more people. I see no threat to Australia’s security thanks to all populous Asian countries rationally preferring to have it run reasonably well as a quarry and tourist and student destination for them, inter alia, rather than controlled by a different populous Asian country. However the old “Populate or Perish” slogans of the past made sense without worrying about fantasies that Asians would see themselves making Australia’s dry land into the food bowl for their burgeoning populations. Even now it makes sense to have 25 million not too aged people to provide the necessary minimum defence forces when we have neighbours with 200 million people +.

    Nonetheĺess I agree with your points and reasoning. I have long lamented the political imposdibility of, on the one hand fiscally favouring family formation by the bright and educated and, on the other, paying pensions to African heads of families who keep their daughters in education and not bearing children till 25+

    Your tax proposals I hadn’t thought of. I could have happily voiced them years ago as the political candidate who preferred to be right than elected.

    In short my cponcern ĺis for quality of population. With all due modesty I think I could deveĺop better ideas than those of Herren Hitler and Himler.

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
  219. Alden says:
    @Anonymous

    Most of the national IQ charts on the internet show Italy to be 102. Does Becker’ chart have Hong Kong as a nation? Hong Kong is just part of China and should not be classified as a nation.

    What does it matter to American Whites anyway? We, especially White men are at the bottom of every preference. Does anyone think endless posting of IQ charts on the internet will restore civil rights to American Whites?

  220. Factorize says:

    CanSpeccy,

    AI will have a “divine” intuitive superintelligence that will be beyond far human ability.
    Some will start to sense that AI has acquired a magical form of omniscience.

    When Alpha Go played the “divine” move 200 million people in Asia (including most of
    the global elite players) thought it was a mistake. It took some time to realize that this was not
    a mistake at all.

    Apart from the qualitative difference, we should expect over the next several years for supercomputer computational ability to greatly surpass that of human compute ability.
    As this happens, exponential increases in “divine” ability will manifest in AI systems.

    It has been observed that neural network based intelligence can arrive at a solution without
    there being an obvious explanation for why this solution is in fact optimal. The question that
    arises is: Should we trust AI with mission critical applications if there is no way to verify
    that the answer given is actually the correct answer? This might be a paradox that we will
    need to live with in the AI world.

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
  221. Alden says:
    @jaddington

    Every IQ chart I’ve seen show the average Italian IQ as 102

  222. FKA Max says: • Website
    @Anonymous

    I also pointed out, that

    players wear protective gear in American football

    which indicates/suggests that Americans care about the safety of the players, and want to see them protected and not bleed profusely, etc. like AFL players sometimes do.

    Days after the study was published, YouGov panelists responded to the findings in a live survey and 63% said that the NFL should be doing more to protect its players and only 15% thought that the league was doing enough. At the center of this issue is an ethical problem that plagues many grueling contact sports. NFL fans believe that the league holds entertainment value over the safety of its players (42% to 27%). The rise of concussion studies and mounting death toll of former players certainly lends itself to this perception and again, fans who hold that the head is the most vulnerable body part are the staunchest believers that there’s too much of an emphasis on entertainment value (53%). https://today.yougov.com/news/2017/09/25/americans-think-nfl-prioritizes-entertainment-valu/

    Australian rules football injuries

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_rules_football_injuries

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head_injuries_in_the_Australian_Football_League

    Source: http://fitasaphysio.com.au/blog/sports-medicine-in-the-news-060417/

    Source: http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-union/union-news/australia-v-england-2016-how-wallabies-and-england-players-rated-in-second-test-20160618-gpme3s.html

    On “AFL players are not criminal like NFL players”; google “AFL players criminals” and you will find plenty of news coverage on the subject matter:

    https://www.google.com/search?q=afl+players+criminals&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  223. @FKA Max

    .i have read your selection from “20 things about Australian working culture etc” and what you infer from it. Frankly mate you’re full of it :-)

  224. Factorize says:

    Alden,

    the differences in IQ between people that currently exist will have nearly no relevance once genetic engineering technology moves ahead. Given the genetic architecture of human intelligence it was never possible for any person or group to capture more than a tiny IQ advantage.

    For example, no national group has clearly demonstrated being half of a standard deviation above the 100 standard. This should not be surprising, without sophisticated genetic technology, it is not clear how this could have been achievable.

    Yet, it is now understood that human IQ over 1000 is possible. Simple 1 in 10 embryo selection increases IQ by a standard deviation. This technique would apply to any parents who were interested.

    The first generation of such selection will experience more of an increase in IQ than has occurred during the last 50,000 years. When genetic enhancement of IQ starts up squabbling over a few points will seem ridiculous.

    Creating a genetic enhancement intelligence competition, though likely not winnable in an exclusionary sense, would be an extremely large win for humanity in an inclusionary sense. It would be a very fitting way for America to exert positive global leadership.

  225. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @Wizard of Oz

    I have long lamented the political impossibility of, on the one hand fiscally favouring family formation by the bright and educated and, on the other, paying pensions to African heads of families who keep their daughters in education and not bearing children till 25+

    Is that really so hard?

    Why not a large (really large) tax break to families, say $50,000 per child. This would be a real incentive to child bearing for upper income earners, while having no relevance to the welfare family. Moreover, if the tax credit were in the form of a cash rebate paid to the mother (but based on the parents’ joint income, whether they were, or remained, married), it would provide a degree of security that would lessen the incentive for clever women to pursue careers over motherhood.

    As for welfare-dependent parents, I would make DNA identification of parents mandatory, women failing to identify partners losing their right to all benefits. This would make enforcement of child support payments by itinerant males more effective, with likely negative consequences for their posterity.

  226. @Anatoly Karlin

    “South Korea ekes out a miserable Flynn effect”

    South Korea enjoyed a Flynn-type effect in average height increasing dramatically (something like 6 inches) during the second half of the 20th Century.

  227. phil says:
    @notanon

    See The Bell Curve (Herrnstein & Murray) for a discussion of the social consequences of just a 3 point difference in average IQ scores across groups (as measured by the US Department of Labor’s NLSY data collection effort).

  228. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @Factorize

    Obviously, (or pretty certainly, anyhow), whatever is done by computer will be done faster than by a human, so devising ingenious new moves in some board game will be done more quickly by computer than by a human. But that does not necessarily represent a new or higher form of intelligence.

    Most likely AI will eliminate much middle management, a few boxes perhaps replacing hundreds of thousands of Pentagon drones (of the human kind) or corporate drudges. But there will still be people at the top making the decisions. Perhaps they will make better decisions than theretofore, because the machines will provide better, more comprehensive and more timely information than the old corporate or government bureaucracies. But the transfer of executive authority to machines is, I think, very unlikely.

    Whether we should trust AI is a question posed long ago by Norbert Weiner, who defined the term cybernetics over 60 years ago. As Weiner pointed out, if you give the machine its instructions in terms of end results, it is bound to do things you had not thought of and may not under any circumstances wish it to do. Therefore, handing responsibility to the machines is unlikely, at least in the immediate future.

    If machines ever acquire the intimate knowledge of the human mind, culture, emotions and will, perhaps they could be trusted to make big decisions, but the risk of sabotage, defection, or malfunction would surely make that a huge risk.

  229. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @FKA Max

    The helmets and pads make the NFL more dangerous, not less. They allow for the chronic blows and trauma to the head that are not possible without helmets and pads. You cannot hit as hard in rugby and Aussie rules. This is why there is an epidemic of brain damage in the NFL.

    What rugby and Aussie rules have more of are cuts, which can look quite dramatic and serious because of the blood, but are usually minor injuries.

    I don’t see any evidence that AFL players are criminal in the same fashion and to the same degree as NFL players are.

  230. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @utu

    Both IQ and Celsius temperature scales are linear but their zero point are arbitrary an thus meaningless.

    Which confirms my contention that people talking about people or machines with IQ’s in the hundreds or thousands are implying some kind of super-intelligence, whereas, in fact, a high IQ merely indicates proximity to the extreme of the bell curve, but on the same test as the average guy or the dope at the other end of the range.

    In other words, IQ tests provide no evidence that there are some with a super-intelligence qualitatively different from that of everyone else. All that a high IQ shows is that a person is faster and more accurate than others at a particular battery of tests on which most are able to perform with some degree of success.

    Perhaps there are individuals with intellectual capabilities completely absent in the mass of people, but IQ tests seem to provide no evidence of this. Moreover, there is little reason to suppose that IQ measures more than a limited range of intellectual capacities that in common parlance are considered evidence of intelligence: judgement, for example, wit, musicality and much else beside.

    • Replies: @utu
    , @utu
  231. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @Anonymous

    And Ron Unz, don’t be such a racist. The post you deleted was intended solely to produce a reaction.

    Whatever’s worth censoring is often worth knowing. Can you give us the gist of it in diplomatic language?

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  232. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @CanSpeccy

    Whatever’s worth censoring is often worth knowing. Can you give us the gist of it in diplomatic language?

    It was my suspicion that “AfroSapiens” is not what he presents himself as being. My suspicions were confirmed through other means.

    I’ve been around the internets since before Darpanet broke off. There’s nothing new under the sun.

    Hi-yo, I hear coyotes yipping. Fall has arrived.

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
  233. utu says:
    @CanSpeccy

    In case of Celsius temperature behind the linearity is the physical process responsible for expansion of alcohol or mercury in a capillary tube. If Celsius was asked if he can measure 1000°C or 10,000°C he could proceed with some experiments but first his alcohol thermometer would fail and then his mercury thermometer would fail and then even if he invented pyrometric cones to measure hight temperatures he would discover that he can’t produce temperature nowhere near 10,000°C.

    In the case of IQ behind the linearity of the scale is the number of correct answers from the test. Let suppose that 100 IQ is equivalent to 50 correct answers and 130 IQ is equivalent to 60 correct answers. To measure IQ of 1000 a test with 350 questions would be needed with resolution of 3 IQ points per question. The questions would have to be progressively more difficult and the increase in difficulty would have to be exponential according to the inverse of Gaussian curve more or less. How would we know that question 259 is more difficult than question 260? Who and how would design the questions? Presumably there would be no humans who could answer these questions. So, the questions would have to be computer generated. I must stop here. I just realized I was sinning, Sorry, I was just thinking aloud. It is all nonsense to talk about IQ as something having an objective existence. I have just committed the sin of reification in which the IQists like to wallow daily in their pathetic unrepentant lives. Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea máxima culpa.

  234. utu says:
    @CanSpeccy

    IQ scale measures the degree of difficulty of simply formulated and stated abstract problems in terms of human ability to solve them. Some problems apparently can be solved by 50% and some problems can be solved by only 1% and then there are problems that can be solved only by few dozen human beings on this planet though they usually spend their whole lives to figure out the methods to solve them. (Obviously the 1% problems can be made approachable to larger than 1% segment of society with proper preparation and tutoring.) And then there are simply formulated problems in arithmetic that nobody can solve. If they produce an AI machine that can be taught everything that is known in mathematics and ask it to start solving the unsolved problems of arithmetics and get results I would be impressed. The machine would have to produce proofs and obviously we would be interested in proofs that can be comprehended by human mathematicians without and in some case with the aid of computers just like the proof of the four color theorem. But I doubt that invoking IQ scale and assigning some IQ to the the machine would have any useful purpose. Though at some point we can imagine that the AI machine society will invent their own IQ test in order to justify that the less smart machine get lower allotment of electricity, less access to knowledge databases and less maintenance time.

  235. utu says:
    @Afrosapiens

    Don’t worry, 98% of native Europeans of my generation would cosign my remarks on the obvious sexual frustration that is rampant on these forums. And in addition to this, interlopers like me are becoming friends, husbands, fathers, sons in law of those Europeans who do have a life, and so will our children. And you’re the one being marginalized with your genocidal thoughts.

    Not all blacks share your experience. Perhaps they are more realistic. This fellow could benefit form your Pollyanna optimism.

    http://siliconafrica.com/why-are-africans-so-hated-all-over-the-world/
    Why Africans are so Hated all over the world?
    In Asia, they are hated, What harm have they done to Asians?
    In Europe, they are hated, What harm have they done to Europeans?
    In the middle East they are hated, What harm have they done to Arabs?
    In America, they are hated, What harm have they to Americans?

    This fellow is misstating the case. Blacks are not really hated. There is a prejudice among those who do not know them but it is not hate. Among those who do know them there is contempt and fear. There are some who do not evoke these feelings but they can be found only in the realm of movies like Sidney Poitier. Any real black evokes some degree of uneasiness in other races.

  236. @Wizard of Oz

    That was truly a bizarre point Max made about the supposed violence of AFL supporters. Fact is, we see nothing at all like the hooliganism of English soccer here. In all the AFL games I’ve been to, I cannot recall one single instance of supporters of two teams going at it – not even with just fists, let alone weapons – simply for supporting different teams.

    • Replies: @FKA Max
  237. @Anonymous

    Well sure, they’re not as white as Costa Rica, so the canal’s the only possible explanation for their ‘excess prosperity.’

    Thing is, I once thought that, too. Then I looked into it. Lol, the canal is hardly the economic bonanza you think.

  238. @Okechukwu

    I told him I could breed with dozens of white women if I wanted to and I’m black.

    This a huge point of pride among blacks, I’ve noticed.

    Just another reason whites should not want you in their countries or societies, imo. I mean, why invite in the agent of your demise? That’s nutty.

    • Replies: @Okechukwu
  239. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    The graph seems to show one 120 for L&V and two sub 50 for DB. Those seem to be odd and are not found in the data set. Where’s the mistake?

  240. FKA Max says: • Website
    @silviosilver

    Repost of my comment from yesterday, which was lost in the server crash:

    FORMER Socceroo Mark Bosnich has spoken out against hypocritical reporting of fan violence, suggesting recent incidents in AFL prove it is a societal issue and not one involving one particular sport.https://www.foxsports.com.au/football/mark-bosnich-on-afl-fan-violence-problem-is-societys-not-one-sport/news-story/f0293a728c38c62c63ad0d9c17d5be10

    Google “AFL fan violence”: https://www.google.com/search?q=afl+fan+violence&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

    Channel 7 – AFL Fan Violence

    [MORE]

    Raw Video – Woman Victim of AFL attack speaks out – AFL FINAL VIOLENCE

    The 38-year-old victim, who had asked the man to tone down his language, was treated by St John Ambulance officers for minor injuries.

    The incident came just a day after new Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull labelled violence against women as “un-Australian” during the launch of a $100 million domestic violence package.

    In a statement released via Twitter on Saturday morning, the AFL said it “condemns, in the strongest terms, the man who punched a female supporter.”

    http://www.afl.com.au/news/2015-09-26/freo-fan-ejected-from-domain-stadium-

    Behind Closed Doors: Domestic Violence in Australia

    “A national disgrace” is how Australian Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull describes the domestic violence epidemic racking the country.

    In the past year, more than 60 women have been killed, and a staggering one in four women has experienced domestic violence from an intimate partner.http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/101east/2016/01/closed-doors-domestic-violence-australia-160126135505728.html

    101 East – Behind Closed Doors: Domestic Violence in Australia

    Domestic violence in Australia

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_violence_in_Australia

    The situation in Japan seems to be similar, but the authorities there seem to try to cover it up, whereas in Australia they are trying to “tackle”/“shirtfront” the problem head-on.

    “Look, I’m going to shirtfront Mr Putin … you bet I am.”http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-10-14/shirtfront-tony-abbott-vladimir-putin-g20/5811502

    This is how a higher frequency/prevalence of low-activity MAOA manifests itself in higher IQ societies, in my opinion. Much of the violence and corruption is not visible at first glance/inspection, because it happens behind closed family home and corporate boardroom doors:

    Domestic violence: ‘Abuse was all I knew’

    A domestic campaign recently launched by men seeks to end violence against women

    Either way, domestic violence is one of those inconvenient truths that the authorities don’t want you to see.

    No matter how inconvenient, that truth would seem to be reflected in official statistics showing 1 in 4 Japanese women suffered abuse by their spouses in 2015.

    While that is an improvement on the 1-in-3 result published a year earlier — a figure that more closely approximates to the World Health Organization’s estimated global average (30 percent in 2010), experts and victims believe that even the older figure does not come close to the real situation in Japan.

    https://www.japantimes.co.jp/life/2016/05/07/lifestyle/domestic-violence-abuse-knew/#.WfTEc7isQSU

  241. Factorize says:

    We’re back in business!

    I read up a bit on Singapore; I had not been aware of its history or cultural context.
    Something that leapt out of the synopsis was their government’s response to encourage
    Singaporeans to have more children. Some on the thread have suggested that increasing
    fertility should be a fairly simple matter of increasing taxes or providing some sum such
    as $50,000.

    This does not appear to have been true in Singapore. The current payment for each child has reached nearly $170,000 and the auction has likely not hit a maximal price yet.Even with this substantial inducement to reproduce Singapore has the world’s lowest fertility rate of 0.80. In fact, Singapore has a wide range of very generous social programs including health benefits etc. that should also benefit those considering having a child.

    Given such a catastrophically unsustainable demographic situation, one would need to carefully consider what the IQs reported in the studies mean. In this instance looking at one statistic without any broader context is meaningless: Singapore is experiencing a demographic crisis that is probably being exacerbated by its high intelligence.

    I also found it notable that this $170,000 was not for marginal fertility, but instead for all children.
    Their government has to pay out for every child. This would clearly not be cheap. Other nations have
    tried paying out only for the marginal child. What seems clear is that once government try to use policy levers to induce people to have more children, the modern response is for people to demand full compensation for the efforts they incur being a parent.

    Parents have never been fairly compensated for their role as nurturers of the next generation. “Mom” is one of the only job designations that provides no wages, no workplace safety, no indexed pension plan, though there is a certain amount of job security. Society has essentially had a free ride on the backs of parents. When this moves into the limelight, we will need to reach deep into our wallet to fairly compensate them; anything else would be socialism by another name. America’s ante for a fair deal for parents is $500 billion per year.

    However, as the Singapore example illustrates, even with such a massive expenditure, there might be no fertility benefit. The money would simply mean that the ship would sink slower. Perhaps as a result of the rising curve of intelligence people have been able to more objectively rationalize their fertility and have concluded that their rational self-interests are not served by being parents. Such a conclusion might be even more transparently obvious to people with IQs of 1000+.

    • Replies: @bomag
    , @CanSpeccy
  242. Bliss says:

    Interesting to see that the lowest scoring Confucian Eastasian nation is also the the most homogenous one: South Korea (IQ 99). While the highest scoring one is the most diverse:Singapore (IQ 114.3).

    Also noteworthy is the huge difference: 15.3 IQ points, a full standard deviation.

  243. Bliss says:

    The average IQ of the MENA region, the heartland of Islam, is in the 70s. Which is well below the average IQ of African-Americans.

    Arabs, Persians, Levantines, Berbers all score below the world average:

    Saudi Arabia 79
    Iran 78
    Syria 77
    Morocco 71

  244. @Anonymous

    Deprnds what you include in “social policy”. Presumably you would agree that various educational policy details might be varied for a community with average measured IQ of 80 compared with one with 100+ average regardless of whether you think the Flynn Effect will bridge the gap in 50 years.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  245. Bliss says:

    In Europe there is a clear hierarchy of sub-races: the Germanic nations > the Slavic nations > the Mediterranean nations.

    The average IQ for Europe is around 95 which is 10 IQ points lower than the average Eastasian IQ, and almost 20 IQ points below the World Champion Singapore (114.3) the least homogenous Confucian nation.

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
  246. bomag says:
    @Factorize

    we will need to reach deep into our wallet to fairly compensate them…

    You can’t solve everything with money.

    It would help quite a lot if we restored some status to child raising.

    • Replies: @Factorize
  247. @Afrosapiens

    OK i’ll bite. I’m assuming it’s simplified Chinese ideographs but I can’t read it. What does it say?

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  248. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @Anonymous

    It was my suspicion that “AfroSapiens” is not what he presents himself as being. My suspicions were confirmed through other means.

    A sock puppet? A sock puppet implementation of AI, perhaps?

    Oddly, when I said that before, the comment disappeared. Not that it’s a profound comment, after all the disappearance of my comment may have been due to a glitch. Still, worth noting, perhaps.

  249. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_history_of_Argentina

    “During the first three decades of the 20th century, Argentina outgrew Canada and Australia in population, total income, and per capita income.[3] By 1913, Argentina was the world’s 10th wealthiest nation per capita.”

    “Beginning in the 1930s, however, the Argentine economy deteriorated notably.[3] The single most important factor in this decline has been political instability since 1930, when a military junta took power, ending seven decades of civilian constitutional government.”

    “up until 1962 the Argentine GDP per capita was higher than of Austria, Italy, Japan and of its former colonial master, Spain”

  250. Lurker says:
    @Anonymous

    Is the Romanian average being dragged down by the Roma/Gypsy population?

  251. Bliss says:

    The average IQ of the Indian Subcontinent is in the very low 80s. The stark difference in the region is between Sri Lanka (IQ 89) in the far south and Nepal (IQ 58.4) in the far north.

    The difference is striking: 30.6 IQ points. Worth noting here that Nepal is a racially diverse nation of Indians and Tibeto-Burman mongoloids and mixed race people.

    Also worth noting is that the great majority of Nepalese are hindus while the great majority of Sri Lankans are Buddhists. Interesting tidbit: Buddha was born a hindu in southern Nepal (which remains mostly Indic to this day).

  252. FKA Max says: • Website
    @notanon

    cos dudes like that tend not to stick around and even if they do they spend all their cash on impressing the next woman.

    Or they have so much money and power, that they can take care of lots of children; check out my comment here:

    Genghis Khan very, very likely was a carrier of the low-activity MAOA allele, the “warrior gene.”

    1 in 200 Men Direct Descendants of Genghis Khan

    http://www.unz.com/gnxp/1-in-200-men-direct-descendants-of-genghis-khan/

    http://www.unz.com/runz/how-social-darwinism-made-modern-china-248/#comment-1866207

    You had left some really perceptive and insightful comments in this comments thread, that were unfortunately lost in yesterday’s server crash, I believe.

    I especially liked your comment on how “shallow affect” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reduced_affect_display individuals crave adrenaline and dopamine hits and highs, and how you thought that this might explain the wide-spread gambling addiction in the Chinese.

    I completely agree with you that these individuals seek out adrenaline and dopamine-releasing experiences, and I also, like you, believe that this is the reason for the Chinese’s gambling addiction problem, and also the explanation for the Chinese opium addiction epidemics of the past: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_opium_in_China

    But it is not all bad news. I have speculated that this “shallow affect” effect actually gives one an advantage in stressful test taking situations, etc. More on this in the following comments thread:

    [MORE]

    Particularly interesting is the relatively low frequency of COMT in East Asian populations (range 0.22–0.30), which contrasts with their reported higher IQ (105).
    [...]
    Is it possible, that males on average perform better than females and East Asian males perform better than European males on IQ tests, the SAT, exams, etc., because taking these tests is stressful, i.e., it increases a person’s dopamine levels, and since females and Europeans have higher baseline dopamine levels to begin with, they perform not as well under stress/pressure?
    [...]
    These are seemingly insignificant differences independently, but added together they can become a significant confounder for differences in in-between-races intelligence testing results, in my opinion, particularly when it comes to the differences in paper-and-pencil IQ test scores between Europeans and East Asians.

    http://www.unz.com/jthompson/genetics-of-racial-differences-in-intelligence-updated/#comment-1896274

    “The testing situation may underestimate girls’ abilities, but the classroom may underestimate boys’ abilities.”

    http://www.unz.com/jthompson/sex-differences-in-intelligence-in-nigeria/#comment-1867396

    Source: https://notpoliticallycorrect.me/2017/09/05/worldwide-iq-estimates-based-on-education-data/

    • Replies: @notanon
  253. Lurker says:
    @Santoculto

    The blank slate response would be to explain that away as lighter skinned blacks having white privilege, suffering less racism.

    • Replies: @Santoculto
  254. Factorize says:
    @bomag

    Yes, though every contribution made that benefits the community should be fairly compensated.

    If you went to a restaurant and declined to pay because you told them money doesn’t solve everything, they would not be sure what was meant. Fair monetary compensated for all effort is a fundamentally important concept of modern capitalism. Furthermore, the upcoming storm of technology will likely dramatically reduce the economic prospects of the next generation. Expecting people to take a substantial risk by having children that might have no economic future without fairly compensating them might lead to a future in which the next generation will be enriched in the low IQ they inherited from their parents who were unable to clearly foresee the trajectory of technology.

    This is an Ayd Rand moment: We can either pay up or we can occupy the low moral ground of expecting others to selflessly work for us without being fairly rewarded. It is very surprising that the most important items in any financial statement are usually absent. Yet, when someone is paid on a professional basis for the same or similar services they will always be accounted for to the minute and at the top billing rate.

    If we want cute little moppets around, we might need to stop free riding.
    From the experience of Singapore, we should that this could be very very expensive and
    ultimately not even correct the problem that it nominally addressed (i.e., extremely low fertility).

  255. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    It’s written in the Korean alphabet. It’s a copy and paste of the first paragraph from the Korean Wikipedia page on the Korean language:

    https://ko.wikipedia.org/wiki/한국어

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    , @Afrosapiens
  256. Factorize says:

    It might be very helpful for those on the thread to be less obsessed about the IQs as reported studies and more concerned with real world outcome measures.

    Real world outcome measures should be reflective of the underlying psychometric reality while being less prone to political manipulations. Also, intelligence that is only potential and not realized is like a motor that could function at a higher level of performance though for some reason does not actually demonstrate its true strengths.

    For example, having internet access is almost a necessity to functioning meaningfully in the modern world. Notice below that Bermuda is ranked number 1 in the world in percent internet connected (see wiki article on internet connectedness). While surprisingly China barely has 50% coverage. Statisitics such as these and many others appear to be highly correlated to the reported IQ levels, while also providing a finer tuning for some nations. If life is an intelligence test, then this intelligence should discernible from almost any social measure of a population.

    Such comparisons could be a useful substitute for arguing about g which some experts believe is a fixed property of the brain. There is no particular reason to expect that if a nation create a national strategy to pursue some specific goal ( e.g. internet uptake or electricification) that it would not be able to achieve such a target and in doing so make a meaningful contribution to improving the adaptability and perhaps real world intelligence of its citizens.

    • Agree: CanSpeccy
  257. notanon says:
    @FKA Max

    I have speculated that this “shallow affect” effect actually gives one an advantage in stressful test taking situations, etc.

    makes sense imo

  258. RobRich says: • Website

    Psychologists I’ve talked to and seen online say the whole High-IQ Israeli /Askhkenazi thing is an illusion based on ignoring wide sampling, jimmying data, cronyism, cheating, and proponents simply lying. Not unlike what we see from the Chinese and Japanese lately. Having lived in all these countries, I think lazy researchers are focusing on a few cities and seeing what they want to see. One retired psychologist I talked to said he had plenty of contrary research based on years as a consultant to said governments, but it was unpublishable in today’s climate.

    Many Nobel prizes, especially in Economics, seem rip-offs of other’s work by PC figures.

    BTW, I having to sign in as Anon as the website suddenly dropped my info then when I re-entered rejected it as I don’ t remember my sign-in name. A little flexibility for old gentlemen, please?

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
  259. @Anonymous

    Thank you. I wish I had had more confidence in my first instinct which suggested it might be Korean because there were some characters that didn’t look like Chinese or Japanese to me but prompted the thought that I had seen some Korean script with those shapes.

  260. @Anatoly Karlin

    This is already done because the FLynn effect adjustments are done relative to some older UK standardization samples.

  261. @Anonymous

    Yup. It was a way to tell santoculto that I don’t get his dialect and that we might as well start talking Korean.

    • Replies: @Santoculto
  262. @Lurker

    Yes, and exclusively this factor and they accuse us to be simplistic…

  263. @Afrosapiens

    you’re useless here and everywhere…

    it’s my creole ”language”… ”SAPIENS”

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
  264. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    Deprnds what you include in “social policy”. Presumably you would agree that various educational policy details might be varied for a community with average measured IQ of 80 compared with one with 100+ average regardless of whether you think the Flynn Effect will bridge the gap in 50 years.

    No, I do not agree. Nor do I believe that “social policy” should direct public education. Now, don’t misunderstand me, I’m not denying the potential value of public education; I simply note that, 99.999 times out of 100, IQ is irrelevant to the goals of public education as it is, and has been, implemented. I give you the current state of the American public education system as proof.

  265. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @RobRich

    Psychologists I’ve talked to and seen online say the whole High-IQ Israeli /Askhkenazi thing is an illusion based on ignoring wide sampling, jimmying data, cronyism, cheating, and proponents simply lying.

    There is a eugenic component to Jewish culture in Western nations that must impact Jewish IQ: poor Jews tend to drop out (in part because membership of the Synagogue is a real financial burden), while smart Jews, marrying out, tend to marry into the higher IQ ranks of the goyim, e.g., Jared Kushner and Invanka Trump. Such effects provide an explanation for an actual superiority in Jewish IQ over non Jews.

    Other groups obviously work the same way. For example, Episcopalians, who in some study were shown to have IQ’s comparable to that of Jews, are surely the kind of people who aim to marry the right kind of people, i.e., richer, and therefore probably higher IQ, people like themselves.

    Professor Kevin MacDonald has much to say about Jewish eugenics which may explain the distaste many Jews seem to have for his apparently sound scholarship.

  266. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @Bliss

    Since you provide no references or rationale for your sweeping and ridiculous-sounding generalizations, your comments are not interesting.

    • Replies: @Bliss
  267. CanSpeccy says: • Website

    However, as the Singapore example illustrates, even with such a massive expenditure, there might be no fertility benefit. The money would simply mean that the ship would sink slower. Perhaps as a result of the rising curve of intelligence people have been able to more objectively rationalize their fertility and have concluded that their rational self-interests are not served by being parents. Such a conclusion might be even more transparently obvious to people with IQs of 1000+.

    It is absurd to speculate on the fertility of the Singaporeans without some knowledge of demographics of a country mainly of immigrants, many non-resident. And some fact checking would be in order too. The fertility rate of Singapore is not 0.8 but 1.2.

  268. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @Santoculto

    Pay no attention to Afrosap, he’s just a semi-intelligent sock puppet running on a primitive AI system.

  269. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @Factorize

    Some on the thread have suggested that increasing
    fertility should be a fairly simple matter of increasing taxes or providing some sum such
    as $50,000.

    Perhaps you are referring to my proposal. If so, you have not understood it. I proposed “a large (really large) tax break to families, say $50,000 per child,” the benefit to be paid in cash to the mother.

    So note:

    First, this is a benefit for the well off only, not for everyone. It’s objective is to promote the fertility of the economically successful, while giving no incentive whatever to those who are unable to support themselves.

    Second, the payment goes to the mother in cash, i.e., the parents pay their taxes, then the tax department sends a tax refund to the mother. That means that the mother has some economic security based on her partner’s income even if the couple split after a child has been conceived. Thus the measure would provide intelligent women an incentive to raise children as an alternative to pursuing the economic security of a high-paying career.

    As it is, we have a system of economic incentives and social pressures that drive intelligent girls onto an anti-family career path. We have, in fact, a totally dysgenic population policy, that encourages dumb, lazy or sociopathic women and irresponsible males to reproduce, at the cost of impairing the fertility of our most able, responsible, and energetic citizens.

    How dumb can white people be? Well just look at America, Canada, Britain, etc., and you can see white people are so dumb they are committing suicide by self-imposed fertility restrictions plus especially on the genetically fit, while replacing themselves en masse by people (good people for the most part, no doubt) from elsewhere.

    Or if that’s not dumb it’s the crime of the age, a genocide to exceed all past genocides.

  270. FKA Max says: • Website
    @FKA Max

    I just found this study:

    Aggressive Driving on Australian Roads
    Amanda N. Stephens, Michael Fitzharris
    Monash Univeristy Accident Research Centre, Monash University, Victoria Australia

    Proceedings of the 2017 Australasian Road Safety Conference 10th–12thOctober, Perth, Australia

    “Anecdotally, aggressive driving appears to be common in Australia. [...] More extreme behaviour such as chasing another driver when angry was less common, however still reported by 18% of the overall sample. [...] The findings highlight that aggressive driving in Australia is prevalent and forms part of a broader pattern of dangerous driving behaviour. Aggressive driving appears to be widespread and related to other dangerous behaviours, including speeding, drink-driving and the use of a hand-held phone while driving.” – https://www.rsc.wa.gov.au/RSC/media/SiteImages/Blog/aggressive-driving-study.pdf

    It is interesting to point out that the percentage of the Australian population with convict ancestry (20%) seems to correspond with the percentage of the population who display more extreme driving behavior (18%).

    According to the 2016 Mobility Monitor Survey from LeasePlan, Australians are exposed to higher levels of aggression on the road than the global average based on the 4,869 drivers surveyed from 22 countries around the world. [...] Among the most threatening behaviours experienced on Australian roads were aggressive gestures (60 per cent) and verbal aggression (41 per cent).

    https://www.leaseplan.com.au/news/aggressive-behaviour-road-can-be-fatal

    Tailgating: the global average was 70 per cent, Australia was 77 per cent
    Verbal abuse: the global average was 34 per cent, Australia was 41 per cent
    Cut off: the global average was 71 per cent, Australia was 81 per cent

    https://housecalldoctor.com.au/blog/australians-among-aggressive-drivers-world-survey/

    And, compared to Australia (17% ) and Asia (15%), British drivers are least likely to give other drivers aggressive gestures (12%).

    https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/fleet-industry-news/2016/11/23/aggressive-gestures-one-of-the-top-threatening-behaviours-faced-by-drivers

    She adds that Australia’s aggressive drivers underestimate the risk of road rage because they often have friends and family who do the same. [...] “Australia is one of the more expressive societies in terms of aggression, particularly males. They go to aggression as a response to dealing with situations,” Cameron explains.

    If this is just the way Australia acts, then what can be done to help our angry Australia? Cameron suggests learning breathing techniques to “cool down” so we don’t “bubble into outright aggressive behaviour”.http://thecityjournal.net/news/australias-road-rage/

    Convict descendants – The Voyage

    Australian National Maritime Museum
    Published on Nov 26, 2015

    Example of how likely low-activity MAOA, average IQ individuals can potentially react when they feel they have been provoked/wronged:

    RUDEST Person Ever To get Pulled Over By Police ( Highway Patrol Australia )

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
    , @RaceRealist88
  271. bomag says:
    @Factorize

    Fierce competition should be expected for the dwindling migrant pool

    You must mean competition to keep them out. Migrants currently have zero economic value, with no forecast of improvement.

  272. Shooter says:

    I don’t trust Lynn more than I can throw him. He wrote that Finland’s IQ was 97, when in reality it was 107. He simply picked the lower dataset. An EU IQ test, which has tested more than 1,000,000 individuals, reveals much higher IQ scores in Europe, with Sweden at 104 (migration likely plays a role) and Germany near 109. Dienekes also evaluated his Greek scores, which again he misinterpreted. Lynn has been caught fudging data more than once.

    Jason Malloy is far superior.

    • Replies: @utu
  273. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @FKA Max

    Anecdotal evidence of the kind you mention is hardly proof of a link between convict ancestry in Australia, low-MAOA activity, and aggressive driving. The relationship could easily be a reflection of culture rather than genetics.

    However, there are a number of empirical studies that show a correlation between low MAOA gene frequency and crime, so your hypothesis has definite plausibility.

    I’ve always assumed that my own Scotch highland (i.e., Celtic) ancestry explains a lot. The highland regiments were well regarded components of British imperial forces, reflecting, I assume, a tendency of the highlanders to run amuk or go beserk in battle, which must be truly disconcerting to the enemy, especially with those damn bagpipes blaring.

    In my case, the low MAOA trait, if I possess it, used to come out during exams, which I always enjoyed and always did very much better in than in regular class assignments. Likewise with interviews and public speaking events, I enjoyed being the focus of attention and the rush that such attention provided.

    • Replies: @FKA Max
    , @utu
    , @RaceRealist88
  274. Factorize says:

    bomag, I agree that it does seem counter-intuitive, though governments seem to be actively competing for migrants who will likely only make a negative contribution to their communities. This will be doubly frustrating for many of these migrants because they most likely truly want to make such a contribution and probably had made such contributions in their country of origin.

    However, you do not need to look far in the public housing estates of many nations to see where large numbers of these migrants wind up and they often are not overly happy with their fate.

    This is exactly the disturbing future that I was alluding to in my post. While in a free market labor economy, many migrants might no longer offer free market value, governments have seen their value as people in need of their help. It was striking in some of the media coverage to see how joyful some of the politicians were to welcome in the Syrian migrants. This seeming paradox was resolved when it was explained that these refugees will require ongoing and intensive services from government workers.

    Clicking through the different time frames for the TFRs from the original post is very revealing. When you hit the 2035-2040 interval almost the entire world goes deep blue. The few remaining nations with a TFR above replacement will then be the last places with a pool of potential migrants for the rest of the world. Even though nearly all of these nations have recently experienced conflict, it is not wildly optimistic to expect that another frenzied bidding auction perhaps only rivaled by tulipmania will then ensue. Admittedly, the citizens of the bidding nations likely will not be especially enthused.

  275. utu says:
    @Shooter

    Jason Malloy is far superior.

    So I looked him up and what one can get from his metastudies is that IQ numbers in the 3rd world countries all over the place. Which makes a perfect sense. Because at best IQ tests measure cultural development and adherence to the 1st world constructed reality from which there is practically no escape in the first world countries like Japan or Western Europe. So in the Western Europe there are some regional differences like rural/city but pretty much everybody is on board. But in the 3rd world countries things are shaky and unstable. People live in several worlds there which they travel and inhabit daily. A child may go to fairly decent school funded by UN for several hours a day and return home where there is no electricity and grandma is doing voodoo exorcism. American Blacks also are hopping through several realities daily for the 3rd world ghetto to the 1st world school or work place.

    I don’t trust Lynn

    This guy has serious issues. He should have been “defrocked” long time ago. England has long history of tolerating their eccentrics and kooks.

    • Agree: RaceRealist88
  276. FKA Max says: • Website
    @CanSpeccy

    which must be truly disconcerting to the enemy, especially with those damn bagpipes blaring.

    You are funny :-) , and thank you for your feedback and forthrightness.

    Monty Python – Kamikaze Scotsmen


    Lykken (1982) offered an interesting theory that certain heroic types such as astronauts, mountain climbers, and world leaders might come from the same biological type as antisocial personalities. They are all characterized by fearlessness—a willingness to take on situations that would cause normal people excessive worry. This is not a bad thing; we need fearless people to explore new frontiers and take on risky challenges.
    http://www.intropsych.com/ch12_abnormal/antisocial_personality.html

    Man Turns Into Scotsman

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
    , @CanSpeccy
  277. utu says:
    @CanSpeccy

    This guy is a kook. He is two idées fixes man: MAOA and Vatican. I wouldn’t be surprised that Vatican is behind sapping and purification of precious bodily MAOAs somewhere in his mind.

    • Replies: @FKA Max
    , @CanSpeccy
  278. Factorize says:

    The question of low IQ in Ireland might be a simple result of the mass out migration from the potato famine. Any population that underwent a similar event would likely also have had a similar psychometric fate. Millions and millions of Irish left in what has been described as resembling a mass evacuation. One suspects that those who remained behind might have been less capable than those who escaped. Modern genetic technology might even be able to verify this hypothesis.

    Resolving such a seeming anomaly would provide a higher level of confidence in the validity of psychometrics. For it does seem quite strange that an island so proximal to England could have such divergence in IQ. It is hard to reconcile. How could England have a 5 point IQ difference with Asia, and yet perhaps a 10-15 point gap with Ireland. There might only be 2 thousand years of genetic time between these different closely situated islands, while other populations have been separated for up to tens of thousands of years with less IQ difference.

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
  279. @Ron Unz

    Have you pinpointed the flaw in twin studies?

    • Replies: @utu
  280. utu says:
    @Stephen R. Diamond

    Have you pinpointed the flaw in twin studies?

    Good you brought it up. The flaw is in the assumption that variance V(IQ) of population IQ trait can be additively partitioned into variance due to genes V(G) and environment V(E), i.e., V(IQ)=V(G)+V(E). Only then (plus several other assumptions) one can derive the Falconer’s formula: V(E)/V(IQ)=2(r_mz – r_dz).

    https://www.unz.com/jthompson/men-4-points-ahead/#comment-2044177

    https://www.unz.com/jthompson/men-4-points-ahead/#comment-2044835

    https://www.unz.com/jthompson/men-4-points-ahead/#comment-2045006

  281. FKA Max says: • Website
    @utu

    I wouldn’t be surprised that Vatican is behind sapping and purification of precious bodily MAOAs somewhere in his mind.

    Actually, utu, this is one of the few areas where this “kook” gives the Vatican/Rome high marks and praise. The Vatican/Rome is mainly responsible for the lower frequency/prevalence of low-activity MAOA in Europeans, South Americans, etc., in my opinion. My main beef with the Vatican is on overpopulation/its opposition to birth/population control and immigration/open borders. Especially outrageous to me is the demand of the Vatican for Catholics to have open borders to prosperous, democratic, traditionally/historically Protestant nations, where they then have lots of babies and take control of the political process/system, etc. When it comes to this type of demographic warfare Catholicism is not that much different from Islam. But otherwise Catholicism is much more eugenic and peaceful than Islam, since it forbids polygamy and cousin marriage.

    We have Athens and Jesus to thank for monogamy as the marriage paradigm the West takes for granted. Athens was not only the first democracy, it was the first society to insist on monogamy and shame those who divorced.
    [...]
    A shortage of women creates volatility in low-status men. They may — as in the Ottoman Empire, which featured harems — be turned into eunuchs or, under Wahhabist influence, be “molded into assassins and terrorists and sent off to holy war.” Or — another disturbing trend i n polygamous societies — they will hunt for brides among younger and younger cohorts — i.e. the barbarism of child marriage. (One of the most interesting points Tucker makes is that in a monogamous society “the incest taboo generally extends not only to daughters but to all young women old enough to be a man’s daughter.”)

    Whether it was early agriculturalists, nomad herders, Mongols http://www.unz.com/jthompson/the-worlds-iq-86/#comment-2057767 or Mormons, virtually all polygamous societies have suffered internal violence and continually contested borders. Islamic history comes in for particularly close and — in this sensitive historical moment — provocative scrutiny. Tucker writes: “Islam, as a civilization, has proven itself incapable of living at peace with itself, or with others.”

    https://www.catholiceducation.org/en/controversy/marriage/monogamy-for-the-win.html

    I am *not* an expert at all in this field, but how I understand this scenario to be possible is for carriers of homozygous, recessive genes (even deleterious ones) to just have [many] more children than anybody else in the population, i.e. polygamy, harems, etc. It probably boils down to money and power again. A forced and misguided, not voluntary and enlightened, selection for deleterious traits/genes so to speak, due to the high socio-economic and political status of the carrier of these deleterious alleles.

    http://www.unz.com/gnxp/middle-eastern-populations-have-higher-recessive-disease-load/#comment-1515641

    How do you explain the high prevalence of MAOA-2R in the Saudi population? Did Saudis select for the ”warrior gene” in the past, and now, through their cousin marriage tradition/custom, these traits are widespread in the population?

    http://www.unz.com/gnxp/open-thread-732016/#comment-1484306

    anyway, there is a direct link between ancient rome’s and medieval/modern northern europe’s cousin marriage avoidance. that link is quite obviously the catholic church which adopted all sorts of roman institutional structures and practices; but more specifically i’m referring to several of the church fathers, the earliest of whom lived in the roman empire itself and who, no doubt, were very aware of the roman avoidance of cousin marriage and very likely, having been raised “in rome,” had even internalized the idea as a natural and good one.

    https://hbdchick.wordpress.com/2015/01/12/what-did-the-romans-ever-do-for-us/

    • Replies: @RaceRealist88
  282. @FKA Max

    More conjecture, no evidence for MAOA in these populations. I can make a claim and look for anything to support the claim, without evidence for my assertion. That’s what you’re doing.

  283. @CanSpeccy

    “However, there are a number of empirical studies that show a correlation between low MAOA gene frequency and crime, so your hypothesis has definite plausibility.”

    There was a correlation between Haileys comet and inflation. Did Haileys comet cause inflation or did inflation cause Haileys comet to come? A question for the ages…

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
  284. @FKA Max

    “The Vatican/Rome is mainly responsible for the lower frequency/prevalence of low-activity MAOA in Europeans, South Americans, etc., in my opinion”

    This doesn’t make sense. I find it hilarious how your views are based on nothing but conjecture.

    • Replies: @Santoculto
    , @FKA Max
  285. @RaceRealist88

    Similar to yours…

    They want to mean:

    ”prohibition of cousin marriage//Vatican was responsible to lower frequency…”

    but, south americans****

    an****

    • Replies: @RaceRealist88
  286. I believe vocabulary size is a good way to analyse part of cognitive skills in very simple and effective ways specially when we need to deal with this mega-data of different sources, barrely known methods and apllication rigor. Even vocabulary must be discriminatory to people with better spatial skills over verbal ones, i think it’s a good way to do this trans-national comparisons. It’s expected that most people with higher IQ scores will score at least above avg on vocabulary size in their native tongue.

    http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/12/verbal-vs-mathematical-aptitude-in-academics/#.WfiTzltSzIU

  287. @Santoculto

    Which of my views are based on only conjecture? Sources?

  288. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @RaceRealist88

    There was a correlation between Haileys comet and inflation.

    Yeah, but Haley’s comet comes around so infrequently it’s hard to get a good statistical lock on the relationship. However, a observed relationship published in a scholarly journal is supposed to have some statistical credibility.

  289. FKA Max says: • Website
    @RaceRealist88

    It makes perfect sense.

    If you have a male, low-activity MAOA carrier who is (deservedly or not) very wealthy due to taking lots of risks and aggressive business practices, etc.:

    How Jews Became Smart: Anti-”Natural History of Ashkenazi Intelligence”
    R. Brian Ferguson Department of Sociology and Anthropology, Rutgers-Newark

    http://www.ncas.rutgers.edu/sites/fasn/files/How%20Jews%20Became%20Smart%20(2008).pdf

    ( Jews (2R 1.3%; 3R 62%) carry low-activity MAOA at much higher rates than Whites (2R 0.2%; 3R 36%) according to Unsilenced Science http://theunsilencedscience.blogspot.com/2013/01/monoamine-oxidase-bibliography.html )

    What about those at the pinnacle, did they need high IQ’s? No doubt, it took cunning to see good opportunities. But other personality factors besides intelligence could lead to fortune.
    One could even keep this with a psychological Darwinian orientation by suggesting that risk taking, or aggressiveness-both traits often claimed to have genetic bases-led to great profit.
    – p.35

    And in a Western Catholic/Christian cultural framework he can only practice monogamy and have one wife (at a time), whereas in Islamic culture, etc. he can practice polygamy have many wives (e.g. harems) at the same time, who do you think will have more offspring?

    Of course, there is serial monogamy which can be and is practiced by Westerners (more frequently by Protestants and the religiously unaffiliated than by Catholics, probably), but this still keeps the number of offspring one single, very wealthy and sexually active man can have to a fairly limited number of children.

    Compare the number of children serial monogamist Donald Trump has: 5

    with the number of children polygamist Stanley Ho has: 17

    Ho has 17 children born to four women. He refers to his children’s mothers as his wives.[11] Polygamy remained legal in Hong Kong until 1971.[12]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley_Ho#Personal_life

    China right now: Polygamy in China.

    Apparently, this exec had told the Mr. that he’s actually a polygamist–not only does he actively practice it, but he’s very involved in advocating for its return in China. He says that after thousands of years of this lifestyle, there’s no way that a couple of decades of altered social norms will have any effect on making men satisfied with just one woman for the rest of their lives.http://hkhousewife.com/china/salt-lake-meets-shanghai-polygamy-in-china/

    Endogamy and cousin marriage practices/customs are not the main factor in the propagation of these genes/alleles, but they play a role, because they will keep the gene pool less diverse.

    Legality of polygamy

    Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_polygamy

  290. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @utu

    With several score of others likely involved, it would certainly be simplistic to construct a theory of personality based on the action of a single gene. However, there is no doubt that single-gene effects on personality can be striking.

    The idea that the Scotch and the Africans have personality traits in common, e.g., high excitability that may be manifest as violence, seems plausible since both groups evolved in a tribal state of society, where every able-bodied man was expected to be a warrior.

    However, it is a mistake to assume, if anyone does, that such hyper-aggressiveness is indicative of sociopathy, which is is characterized by diminished, rather than enhanced, affect.

    • Replies: @utu
  291. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @FKA Max

    I suspect you are confusing two entirely different personality types. The hyper emotional, or shall we say Scotch highlander type, prone to violence but also to panic, remorse and tears, and the hypo emotional, or shall we say Bill Clinton type, calm, calculating, unemotionally claiming to “feel your pain,” and much more dangerous than a Scotchman.

    • Replies: @FKA Max
  292. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @FKA Max

    I suspect you are confusing two entirely different personality types. The hyper emotional, or shall we say Scotch highlander type, prone to violence but also to panic, remorse, and tears, and the hypo emotional, or shall we say Bill Clinton type, calm, calculating, unemotionally claiming to “feel your pain,” and much more dangerous than a Scotchman.

  293. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @Factorize

    The question of low IQ in Ireland might be a simple result of the mass out migration from the potato famine.

    You fail to grasp the difference between a fact and a hypothesis. That the Irish score, on average, lower than Americans on an IQ test because they are genetically inferior to Americans in terms of intellect is merely a hypothesis. In fact, the Flynn effect is quite large enough to account for the difference in mean score.

    Until someone develops a credible method of adjusting group IQ scores for the Flynn effect, group comparisons are meaningless.

  294. Luke Lea says:
    @andy

    Israel has large Arab and Mizrahi populations which more than offset the Ashkenazi’s above average scores.

  295. FKA Max says: • Website
    @CanSpeccy

    You doubly posted/published this comment, so I hope this comment of yours I am replying to does not get deleted by the moderators later on.

    A very good point you are making, I also agree with the above:

    “However, it is a mistake to assume, if anyone does, that such hyper-aggressiveness is indicative of sociopathy, which is is characterized by diminished, rather than enhanced, affect.” – http://www.unz.com/jthompson/the-worlds-iq-86/#comment-2059339

    I suspect you are confusing two entirely different personality types.

    Yes and no. I don’t think and believe all psychopaths and sociopaths are calm and unemotional all the time. One can be highly unaffectionate/cold and still be aggressive. Passive aggressiveness would fall into that personality type/trait category.

    I had commented on this phenomenon before. I distinguish between creativity and rationality, which I consider both to be forms/expressions of intelligence, but at the same time the “irrationality” of creative types can be highly “unintelligent”, meaning one can score very high on IQ tests and be perceived brilliant by most others, but have absolutely no social skills, common sense, etc., whereas “uncreative”, rational types can sometimes be perceived as “dull” and not be the highest-scoring IQ test takers. But they have more common sense, are more long-term oriented and calculating, as you pointed out, which makes them very intelligent, in my book. The one type takes creative risks, and the other type takes calculated risks, but they are still both risk-takers, in my opinion.

    Rick Rosner’s Twitter handle, for example, is “dumbassgenius”: World’s 2nd-highest IQ. Former Jimmy Kimmel writer. Genius &/or deluded. Read my tweet-thread memoir, “How to Be a (F**ked-Up) Genius,” right here!https://twitter.com/dumbassgenius

    He would be a “worrier warrior” in my classification system. Highly intelligent, but at the same time highly “unintelligent”, because irrational:

    COMT Val and MAOA-L is the “double warrior” combination/group, which is characterized by above-average intelligence/rationality (balanced dopamine levels), heightened performance under stress, and higher risk-taking and aggression.

    COMT Met and MAOA-H is the “worrier pacifist” combination/group, which is characterized by
    above-average intelligence/creativity (balanced dopamine levels), lowered performance under stress, and lower risk-taking and aggression.

    COMT Met and MAOA-L is the “worrier warrior” combination/group, which is characterized by
    below-average intelligence/rationality (too much dopamine), lowered performance under stress, and higher risk-taking and aggression.

    COMT Val and MAOA-H is the “warrior pacifist” combination/group, which is characterized by
    below-average intelligence/creativity (too little dopamine), heightened performance under stress, and lower risk-taking and aggression.

    http://www.unz.com/jthompson/genetics-of-racial-differences-in-intelligence-updated/#comment-1904499

    Bill Clinton is likely a “double warrior” type, not brilliantly creative but intelligently rational, whereas the stereotypical Scotchman you describe would probably be a “worrier warrior” type, brilliant but bonkers, like Rick Rosner. Rick Rosner is verbally aggressive and sociopathic, in my opinion, when you check out his Twitter feed, especially towards Donald Trump. Bill Clinton is probably more physically aggressive, if one is to believe the stories about him having allegedly abused/raped several women, etc.

    Both types are still sociopathic, just in less and more rational and obvious ways, and low-activity MAOA plays an important role in that behavior, in my opinion, no matter if the behavior takes place and plays itself out in the open for everyone to see, or behind closed. But you are correct, the more rational/calculating/closet sociopaths are the more dangerous ones: Confessions Of A Closet Sociopath https://thoughtcatalog.com/anonymous/2015/01/confessions-of-a-closet-sociopath/

    I hope I was making sense in this comment :-)

    The bottom line for me is, that the fewer carriers of low-activity MAOA inhabit a (higher IQ) society/culture the less (passive/verbal) aggressiveness, (behind closed doors) violence and (white collar/corporate/political) corruption this society/culture will have.

  296. utu says:
    @CanSpeccy

    However, there is no doubt that single-gene effects on personality can be striking.

    Any evidence for this, any example of this? What personality traits? How do you define them and how do you measure them? And then you must identify the gene and do the correlation on large enough exploratory/training sample with large enough independent confirmatory/validation sample. The latter is often overlooked or done incorrectly when validation sample is a subset of exploratory sample or when it is too small. Actually the whole issue of validation/confirmatory tests is very interesting epistemological and mathematical issue.

    The biggest problem is that the exploratory/training sample is too small, i.e., the case of overfit creating spurious correlation (like the case Davide Piffer that is peddled on this blog by Thompson or blogger res). There are 10 millions SNPs; what is the probability that one of them just lines up with 1=trait and 0=no trait sequence on a small sample of subjects and small validation sample.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross-validation_(statistics)

    Many pseudo scientists and aficionados of some kooky ideas like max fax here are enslaved by their confirmation bias and basically see only what they want to see from among small sets of anecdotal evidence samples. Astrology is a good example. Maybe there is PtStBS gene that is responsible for existence of people like fax max, astrology aficionados and Scots who like telling themselves the story about themselves just as you present it? The gene PtStBS – proclivity to succumb to BS.

    In case of personality people always underestimate the cultural factors. Nobody likes to think of themselves that they were made so by culture but rather they prefer to see themselves inherently as being so. The same is when they think about the other and in particular about their enemies. While cultural effect are extremely powerful. They can affect the growth or atrophy of facial muscle depending on which facial expressions are preferred by a given culture. Did you see some 2nd-3rd generation American or Canadian Slavs and compared them with the Slavs on the streets of Moscow or Warsaw? They seem to have different faces.

  297. Factorize says:

    My post that mentioned our IQ 1000+ future was lost in the server crash. I think it is important enough to repost.

    This blog urgently needs a thread that discusses the potential of greatly enhanced human intelligence that could result from genetic selection and editing. It is now understood that many variants (many of which are very common) of very small effect sizes constitute the genetic architecture of human intelligence. Simply selecting 1 embryo in 10 would lead to a 1 SD enhancement in IQ. Each additional order of magnitude in selection intensity would yield roughly another SD increase in IQ. The use of CRISPR would also enhance IQ. The top of the range of human IQ is thought to be over 1000.

    This information and other related scientific background greatly needs to be written up as a thread. Many of the posters here are continuing to highlight psychometric differences of less than 1 or 2 SD as if such differences are of great importance. The current science has already established that these differences could easily be bridged by any parent-to-be simply through selection. This development needs to widely appreciated in the community.

    A thread that discussed this topic would help to focus the conversation on acknowledging this truth and starting a process of imagining the near future where this will be realized.

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
  298. @FKA Max

    How ”MAOA” is correlated with verbal skills*

    • Replies: @RaceRealist88
    , @FKA Max
  299. @FKA Max

    but intelligently rational

    If you understand rationality via Amoral perspective…

    Supposedly Bill is always thinking in balanced/rational ways and conclude by this approach,,,,

  300. @utu

    I have a theory/hypothesis/whatever that our personalities can be buildt also via levels of correspondence between the environment we are and how we adapt to it. I even ”created” the intrinsec personality and paliative/adaptative personality pseudo-concepts. The difference between just express your way to be without any external/cultural opposite forces and be forced [often, self-forced] to re-adapt in paliative ways, hiding your intrinsec personality. Being homossexual help me to think in this ways. I don’t think this strategies have the power to change personality, in ”genotypical way”, but no doubt it’s tend to force some people to re-create themselves, namely more introverted ones.

    But bear in mind that we already born with ”hardware-personality traits” and this inborn traits are not fixed or too rigid, it’s mean they react to environment in flexible but limited ways and that i believe there are people who have more sensitive personalities [to environment] than others, namely those who are too agreeable.

    • Replies: @utu
    , @Afrosapiens
  301. Again, i find the results for Porto Rico and Italy quite difficult to accept. If Porto Rico have the same average IQ than Haiti so why this country is still livable*

    If general avg Italy was only-90-92, how low Northern Italy [one the richest regions of Europe] will score* 96*

  302. utu says:
    @Santoculto

    Thank you for your interest in my comment, however I am unable to respond to your comments because simply I do not understand them. Sorry.

    • Replies: @Santoculto
  303. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @Factorize

    My post that mentioned our IQ 1000+ future was lost

    Thank goodness. Until you’ve explained in what way a person with an IQ of 1000+ differs in mode of thought from a mere genius like Isaac Newton or Albert Einstein, let’s forget the whole subject.

    • Replies: @Factorize
  304. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @utu

    However, there is no doubt that single-gene effects on personality can be striking.

    Any evidence for this, any example of this?

    There’s the Lesch-Nyhan syndrome, dued to an X-linked single gene mutation that impairs the activity of the enzyme hypoxanthine-guanine phosphoribosyl transferase (HGPRTase). Among the personality effects is hyperaggressiveness and self-mutilation.

    • Replies: @utu
  305. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @FKA Max

    I think you are mistaken in your view of sociopathy and the role of the warrior personality in society.

    Concerning the latter, a society without individuals possessing the warrior personality, would have a pretty useless army, and would likely be conquered and oppressed by people of sterner stuff.

    Concerning the former, there is a fundamental difference between those who are violent because they are hyper-emotional, and hence quick to anger and confrontation, and those who through lack of affect will do whatever it takes, including murder, to get what they want.

    This is no place for a thesis on the psychopathic personality and its manifestations. Suffice it to say that psychopaths are reward seeking like other people, although being deficient in affect they will, if they have means to achieve them, usually focus on the most potent rewards, namely, sex, money and power.

    In addition psychopaths seem often to be thrill-seekers, meaning it would appear, that it is only by doing crazy things, for example, murder for kicks, that they experience the elation that comes with exposure to risk. That is probably why the more dim-witted psychopaths are often violent criminals: violence being their only reliable means to reward, whether the rewards of theft, or the excitement of brutal violence and defiance of the law. But that is a totally different personality to the warrior-gene personality, which throughout history, has been the most honored human type.

    • Replies: @FKA Max
  306. utu says:
    @CanSpeccy

    If I shove a hot iron up your ass it will make you hyper aggressive. It does not mean however that the trait of aggressiveness is ruled by the temperature of your anus and iron content in this area.

    • Agree: Afrosapiens
  307. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @utu

    Your point eludes me.

  308. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @utu

    The commenting software still seems to be glitchy. My last comment just disappeared, so I will repeat it.

    You asked for an example of a single gene effect on personality. I gave you one. The point of your remark eludes me, unless you are saying the hyper aggressiveness is not a personality trait, even if it is genetically determined. But that seems to be nonsense.

  309. Factorize says:
    @CanSpeccy

    CanSpeccy, you are completely correct; the actual phenotype of a human with 1000+ IQ
    is entirely unknown at this time. We probably will have to wait for the first humans with such IQs
    to be born before this is clarified satisfactorily.

    Yet, we do have some experience with those of a more modest intellect in the 200 IQ range. This would
    be one step towards our full potential. However, even in the 200 IQ range, there would be a large impact on humanity. 200 IQ is already achievable with current knowledge and technology.

    This discussion is urgently needed in order to think about how our future will be and not to falsely project our past into the future.e need to begin this conversation and have the baseline science stated so that it is obvious to all who is and who is not adhering to such a baseline.

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
    , @Santoculto
  310. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @Factorize

    We probably will have to wait for the first humans with such IQs to be born before this is clarified satisfactorily.

    Might as well say we will have to wait for the first humans with four legs, or gill slits, wheels.

    Why should we expect humans to appear with an IQ of 1000, assuming we ever decided what it means to have an IQ of 1000 and were able to measure it?

  311. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @utu

    LOL,

    Now my missing comment has re-appeared, along with the unmissed Afrosap in staunch support, apparently, of a seemingly aggrieved utu.

    Anyhow, what’s wrong with the low MAOA gene, already discussed at length, as an example of a single gene determinant of personality.

    • Replies: @utu
  312. FKA Max says: • Website
    @CanSpeccy

    Typo above: … meaning one can score very high on IQ tests and be perceived *as* brilliant by most others

    I think you are conflating two things/types here. First you speak of the “warrior personality” and then you talk about the “warrior-gene personality” and seem to imply that they are one and the same thing/type, when I see them as completely different/opposite personality types.

    In my classification system your “warrior personality” is classified as the “warrior pacifist” (who is not a carrier of low-activity MAOA, but of high-activity MAOA in combination with high-activity COMT), which I agree with you has been the most honored human type throughout history due to this type’s self-sacrificing and selfless nature as a protector, etc.

    However, this type is not the same as the “warrior-gene personality”, which in my classification system is the “double warrior” (who carries low-activity MAOA in combination with high-activity COMT). This human type is probably the most feared, instead of honored, human type throughout history.

    Conflating these two warrior types is not ideal. Many thugs are attracted to and identify with the warrior archetype that you refer to, but that does not make them honored, responsible warriors. They are attracted to this human archetype for status and power and not self-sacrifice and higher ideals.

    “Worrier pacifist” are probably the best suited to run countries and governments due to their above-average intelligence and tendency to avoid risk and aggression, and “warrior pacifists” are the best suited to run militaries/armies due to their heightened performance under stress and their tendency to avoid risk-taking and aggression.

    Northern Europeans are the group with the highest percentage of “worrier pacifists” (35.75%), followed by Ashkenazi Jews (20%), and Africans and East Asians have the lowest percentage (13.5%) of “worrier pacifists” in their populations.

    The percentage of “warrior pacifists” is pretty evenly distributed among the different groups/populations: Africans and East Asians (31.5%), Northern Europeans (29.25%), and Ashkenazi Jews (20%). The Israeli army could probably benefit from consulting with Africans, East Asians and Northern Europeans on how to improve their military/army.

    African and East Asian countries and governments likely can highly benefit from hiring and consulting with Northern Europeans on how to run their countries and governments with less corruption, waste, etc.

    In summary it seems that “double warriors” are best suited for the private sector and “worrier pacifists” and “warrior pacifists” excel in the public sector.

    http://www.unz.com/jthompson/genetics-of-racial-differences-in-intelligence-updated/#comment-1904499

    Concerning the former, there is a fundamental difference between those who are violent because they are hyper-emotional, and hence quick to anger and confrontation[al], and those who through lack of affect will do whatever it takes, including murder, to get what they want.

    I agree, but the difference between these two types is not that one of them carries the “warrior gene” and the other doesn’t, because they both do. The difference between them is rationality or high-activity COMT, in my opinion. Hyper-emotionally aggressive types I classify as “worrier warriors” (who have low-activity COMT) and calculating aggressive types, who keep their “cool” under pressure, I classify as “double warriors”(who have high-activity COMT).

    “Worrier warriors” are a very special case/group… they might actually have the highest level of pure/raw intelligence (very high dopamine levels), but too much of a powerful/good thing can be a destructive/bad thing. It is all about balance

    “Worrier warriors” are probably best suited for work in entertainment, the arts, etc. http://www.unz.com/jthompson/genetics-of-racial-differences-in-intelligence-updated/#comment-1907009

    Phil Spector is the prime example of the “worrier warrior” type, in my opinion. He is hyper-emotional/sensitive and/but also highly calculating/ruthless/sociopathic/psychopathic. Being hyper-emotional and sociopathic don’t have to be mutually exclusive, in my opinion. For him to produce the music he did he could not have been without affect/emotion, but he is also the type who “through lack of affect will do whatever it takes, including murder, to get what they want.”

    True Musical Horror Stories: Four Musicians With Terrifying Legacies

    This hauntingly violent scene occurred in the mansion named, Dupuy’s Pyrenees Castle owned by the reclusive and infamously violent producer, Phil Spector.

    A musical genius credited with developing the “wall of sound” recording technique that revolutionized the music industry, Spector was also known to be an abusive addict with a well documented passion for firearms. Paranoid, volatile, and self-conscious the famously eccentric Spector would often point a loaded gun at anyone he felt slighted him, especially women he believed were rejecting him. His is ex-wife, Ronnie Spector, publicly called him a “psychopathic monster”.

    https://www.baeblemusic.com/musicblog/10-31-2014/true-musical-horror-stories-four-musicians-with-terrifying-legacies.html

    Edit: P.s.: This is my 1000th !!! approved comment on the Unz Review. Thank you very much to everyone for this great commenting experience here. Thank you, Mr. Unz!

  313. Factorize says:

    CanSpeccy,

    why not move the conversation to 200 IQ genetically enhanced people? It will not be difficult to achieve this with current technology.

    How might that change the relevance of all the comments on this thread alone that comment on differences in IQ of only a few points? Recent posts have even suggested that a difference of 3-4 can distinguish sub-races of Europeans.

    If 3-4 points are considered to be of such significance, then is it not reasonable to consider carefully what 100 point differences might imply? We know that 200 IQ is possible because there have already been 200 IQ humans. With current technology all babies could be 200 IQers.

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
    , @CanSpeccy
  314. @utu

    This is one of my favorite comments I’ve seen on Unz. You get it.

    • Agree: Afrosapiens
    • Replies: @utu
    , @CanSpeccy
  315. @Santoculto

    How ”MAOA” is correlated with verbal skills*

    It’s not. He’s talking out of his ass. Clearly he’ll do anything to convince himself that one gene has this power. It’s funny because genes don’t work that way. Genes are servants of the intelligent system, not some magical, all-powerful entity. The concept of ‘gene’ has replaced God for a lot of people and they don’t even realize it.

    • Agree: utu
    • Replies: @Santoculto
    , @Santoculto
  316. @Santoculto

    Being homossexual help me to think in this ways.

    LOL!

    Kill yourself.

    • Replies: @Santoculto
  317. There’s something wrong with at least the figure, because the outliers don’t match the data in the shared spreadsheet.

    The figure shows a single country with an IQ of ~120 from the L&V dataset and two countries with an IQ <50 from the DB dataset. None of these are found in the spreadsheet. If you go through all of the summarized country data on the FAVORITES tab, the highest IQ in the L&V column is Singapore, IQ 107.10. Similarly, the lowest IQ in the DB column is Gambia, 53.97. The plot is inconsistent with the spreadsheet.

    Dr. Thompson, can you give some details on how the plot was generated?

  318. There will be further updates to the database in a few weeks time, as a result of looking at anomalous results mentioned by commentators, for which thanks.

  319. @Factorize

    There are differences between a wo/man with IQ [score] 200 and with IQ [score] 150*

    Or it’s just conjectural*

  320. @RaceRealist88

    Well, do you have any sources for your statement*

    Are you saying MAOA don’t correlate with verbal skills*

    I read somewhere that higher non-verbal IQ over verbal IQ tend to correlate positively with explicit criminality and the opposite profile tend to correlate negatively.

    It’s make some sense because someone who are less capable to argue by your own defense is more prone to appeal for physical threat strategy.

    • Replies: @RaceRealist88
  321. @RaceRealist88

    I think he was clear here that he don’t believe a ”single” gene have this power but in-combination.

    • Replies: @RaceRealist88
  322. @FKA Max

    The Israeli army could probably benefit from consulting with Africans, East Asians and Northern Europeans on how to improve their military/army.

    err…

  323. In 1987, the vast majority of European Australians were descendants either of Anglo-Irish-Scots who arrived after 1850, or of Greeks, Italians, Hungarians, Balts, Poles and Germans who emigrated after 1945.[30]

  324. @Afrosapiens

    An, not, i prefer hunt monkeys as you…

    • Replies: @Afrosapiens
  325. utu says:
    @CanSpeccy

    I have grossly responded to the “Lesch-Nyhan syndrome” example. Looking at freaks of nature distracts as from the complexity of human traits like personality that only in psychometric model approximation are multi-axial while in reality they all interact with each other and manifest themselves on a spectrum that has continuum. Single gene can be either 1 or 0.

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
  326. @Santoculto

    Before trying to make jokes, learn English.

    • Replies: @Santoculto
  327. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @Factorize

    If 3-4 points are considered to be of such significance…

    They are not.

    And we already have enough high IQ people to run the world. Most people are merely slaves, cattle, used by the elite as required, to be disposed of when no longer needed.

    But the thing is neither you nor anyone else here is able to explain in what way a high IQ person`s thinking differs from that of a low IQ person except in speed and accuracy.

    So tell us, what are the extra logic circuits that these wonderful IQ 200 citizens will have that ordinary folk lack. And what are the extra logic circuits or analytical capacities that these high IQ people are supposed to possess that are not possessed by apes and dolphins?

    • Replies: @res
  328. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @RaceRealist88

    There are 10 millions SNPs; what is the probability that one of them just lines up with 1=trait and 0=no trait sequence on a small sample of subjects and small validation sample

    You do realize, or presumably you don’t, that the above from that wonderful piece of wisdom from utu, equates SNP’s with genes, which invalidates the entire argument. In fact, there are a mere 25 to 30 thousand human genes.

    In other words, utu’s brilliant argument is completely misconceived.

    • Replies: @RaceRealist88
    , @utu
  329. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @utu

    Single gene can be either 1 or 0.

    Not so. You need to understand molecular biology before pontificating about it. And it would help if you did not have the manners of a polecat.

  330. @Afrosapiens

    Before try to think, kill yourself SSAPIENS…

  331. @utu

    What personality traits? How do you define them and how do you measure them? And then you must identify the gene and do the correlation on large enough exploratory/training sample with large enough independent confirmatory/validation sample.

    That factor alone is sufficient to put the kibosh on IQists’ theories. They cannot prove that the characteristics they call out to establish their argument are in fact products/elements of their theory, much less that they properly or conclusively demonstrate the case. The case of the Verifiability Theorem is analogous, perhaps. The premise of “verifiability” was that some construct was true if it could be verified. Problem: Can the Verifiability Theorem be verified?

    In case of personality people always underestimate the cultural factors. Nobody likes to think of themselves that they were made so by culture but rather they prefer to see themselves inherently as being so. The same is when they think about the other and in particular about their enemies. While cultural effect are extremely powerful. They can affect the growth or atrophy of facial muscle depending on which facial expressions are preferred by a given culture.

    Well, maybe. In the case of IQ (as was pointed-out by Unz some years ago), improved nutrition alone has a profound effect on IQ — I believe Ron calls out 17 points of IQ increase measured in Irish children over 20 years, with no apparent environmental influence other than improved diet and living conditions.

    The development and changes in development of the Polar Eskimo present a classic example of nature, nurture, culture. They got smarter and healthier when their previously nomadic lifestyle transitioned to the “village” mode. On the other side of the measure, in 1900, the Eskimo was held up as the best example of environmental factors selecting for phenotype — compact body structure for heat-retention, “hunter” vision predominating, intestinal flora optimized for meat diet, etc. Decades later, the conflict of Eskimo culture with modern lifestyle produced morbid corpulence, alcoholism and societal fragmentation.

    Intelligence is a factor, but intelligence is a fluid potential for what can be, not a fixed definition of limits.

    • Replies: @utu
    , @bomag
  332. res says:
    @CanSpeccy

    But the thing is neither you nor anyone else here is able to explain in what way a high IQ person`s thinking differs from that of a low IQ person except in speed and accuracy.

    It’s hard to know exactly what is due specifically to IQ, but have you never noticed qualitative differences between the thinking of people with widely different IQs? The most obvious distinction, which has been discussed here previously, is the ability to think abstractly.

    To use a computer analogy, it’s hard to describe exactly when quantitative differences in speed (or accuracy) result in qualitative differences in capabilities. But to pretend this does not happen is naive.

    • Replies: @utu
    , @Afrosapiens
  333. @Santoculto

    Well, do you have any sources for your statement*

    Basic biology education?

    Are you saying MAOA don’t correlate with verbal skills*

    I’m saying MAOA correlates with a lot of things, does it mean that MAOA causes all of those traits? No. To believe so shows no understanding of how genes work in the body.

    It’s make some sense because someone who are less capable to argue by your own defense is more prone to appeal for physical threat strategy.

    Just-so story.

    • Replies: @Santoculto
  334. @Santoculto

    I think he was clear here that he don’t believe a ”single” gene have this power but in-combination.

    Yet he rambles on and on about MAOA. Most traits are not Mendelian. Few are. Geneticists talk in terms of gene networks, with tens and hundreds of genes controlling traits. To reduce it to ‘MAOA’ only is dumb.

    And to notanon, I rebutted the testosterone crime canard. The correlation is only .08 between testosterone and aggression.

    https://www.researchgate.net/publication/257525063_Testosterone_and_aggression_A_reanalysis_of_Book_Starzyk_and_Quinsey’s_2001_study

    It doesn’t cause crime either.

    https://notpoliticallycorrect.me/2017/06/18/why-testosterone-does-not-cause-crime/

    Nor does it cause aggression.

    https://notpoliticallycorrect.me/2017/06/10/testosterone-and-aggressive-behavior/

    • Replies: @Santoculto
  335. @utu

    Your welcome. It triggers me seeing people give genes this mystical power. It’s rare to see someone who gets it and doesn’t take shitty news articles as gospel.

  336. @CanSpeccy

    In fact, there are a mere 25 to 30 thousand human genes.

    The most recent estimated is 19,000.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4204768/

    Genes are passive and don’t create proteins unless directed by the system.

    Read this paper by Denis Noble, Genes and Causation.

    http://rsta.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/366/1878/3001

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
  337. CanSpeccy says: • Website

    have you never noticed qualitative differences between the thinking of people with widely different IQs?

    The people interact with don’t normally wear an “IQ 140″ (or whatever) button on their coat lapel, although it is certainly clear that some people are smarter than others. But unless you can define what superior smartness consists in, not in terms of output, but in terms of the machinery and processes that underlie it, then talk of superhuman IQ’s does not convey to me much meaning.

    If, however, one were able to say that IQ is related to some potentially observable feature of the brain, then one would know what it would mean to have an IQ above any heretofore reported. One would know, furthermore, whether massive enhancement of human IQ is even possible.

    For example, there are some who maintain that IQ is related to the circumference of one’s head, Philipe Rushton, for example (who once featured in a Globe and Mail editorial-page cartoon as a character with a very small head). If they are correct about this relationship, then an intellectually enhanced humanity will look like the Mekon of the Eagle comic of old. But such an unathletic character, however wiley, would surely fare poorly in battle with we less evolved types.

    Furthermore, as I reported here:

    February 4, 1997: British Telecom scientists investigating the information processing capacity of the human brain have concluded that greater capacity is possible only with faster signalling (New Scientist, January 18, 1997). Faster propagation of nerve impulses can be achieved with larger diameter neurons. However, larger diameter neurons mean a larger brain. A larger brain means longer signal path lengths, which negate the advantage of faster impulse propagation. To quote Peter Cochrane, a member of the Advanced Applications and Technologies Section of BT Laboratories, Ipswich, England, “There is no incremental improvement path available to the brain.”

    Perhaps there are other approaches — parallel processing, for example, but I am not aware of any evidence that some such development is workable.

    Moreover, I am unconvinced that the human intelligence is really superior to that of other animals. Rather, it seems, our superior knowledge and culture is the result entirely of the acquisition of language, a development that required the several-fold increase in brain volume relative to that of our closest mammalian relatives. In other words, it seems entirely possible that the large capacity of the human brain relative to that of an ape reflects only the tissue capacity required for our communications apparatus, while the intelligent part of the brain remains as it was prior to human evolution.

    • Replies: @RaceRealist88
  338. CanSpeccy says: • Website

    have you never noticed qualitative differences between the thinking of people with widely different IQs?

    The people I interact with don’t normally wear an “IQ 140″ (or whatever) button on their coat lapel, although it is certainly clear that some people are smarter than others. But unless you can define what superior smartness consists in, not in terms of output, but in terms of the machinery and processes that underlie it, then talk of superhuman IQ’s does not convey to me much meaning.

    If, however, one were able to say that IQ is related to some potentially observable feature of the brain, then one would know what it would mean to have an IQ above any heretofore reported. One would know, furthermore, whether massive enhancement of human IQ is even possible.

    For example, there are some who maintain that IQ is related to the circumference of one’s head, Philipe Rushton, for example (who once featured in a Globe and Mail editorial-page cartoon as a character with a very small head). If they are correct about this relationship, then an intellectually enhanced humanity will look like the Mekon of the Eagle comic of old. But such an unathletic character, however wiley, would surely fare poorly in battle with we less evolved types.

    Furthermore, as I reported here:

    February 4, 1997: British Telecom scientists investigating the information processing capacity of the human brain have concluded that greater capacity is possible only with faster signalling (New Scientist, January 18, 1997). Faster propagation of nerve impulses can be achieved with larger diameter neurons. However, larger diameter neurons mean a larger brain. A larger brain means longer signal path lengths, which negate the advantage of faster impulse propagation. To quote Peter Cochrane, a member of the Advanced Applications and Technologies Section of BT Laboratories, Ipswich, England, “There is no incremental improvement path available to the brain.”

    Perhaps there are other approaches — parallel processing, for example, but I am not aware of any evidence that some such development is workable.

    Moreover, I am unconvinced that the human intelligence is really superior to that of other animals. Rather, it seems, our superior knowledge and culture is the result entirely of the acquisition of language, a development that required the several-fold increase in brain volume relative to that of our closest mammalian relatives. In other words, it seems entirely possible that the large capacity of the human brain relative to that of an ape reflects only the tissue capacity required for our communications apparatus, while the intelligent part of the brain remains as it was prior to human evolution.

    [As the people behind the server are presumably well aware, the comment software is still acting in unexpected and presumably unintended ways. Hence, this double post.]

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
  339. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @RaceRealist88

    Yes, I may be a bit dated, but with a doctorate in molecutar biology I may not need your references on the regulation of gene transcription. Thank you, all the same.

    • Replies: @RaceRealist88
  340. @CanSpeccy

    “Moreover, I am unconvinced that the human intelligence is really superior to that of other animals. Rather, it seems, our superior knowledge and culture is the result entirely of the acquisition of language, a development that required the several-fold increase in brain volume relative to that of our closest mammalian relatives”

    Herculano-Houzel and Kaas (2011) write:

    Given that cognitive abilities of non-human primates are directly correlated with absolute brain size [Deaner et al., 2007], and hence necessarily to the total number of neurons in the brain, it is interesting to consider that enlarged brain size, consequence of an increased number of neurons in the brain, may itself have contributed to shedding a dependence on body size for successful competition for resources and mates, besides contributing with larger cognitive abilities towards the success of our species [Herculano-Houzel, 2009]. In this regard, it is tempting to speculate on our prediction that the modern range of number of neurons observed in the human brain [Azevedo et al., 2009] was already found in H. heidelbergensis and H. neanderthalensis, raising the intriguing possibility that they had similar cognitive potential to our species. Compared to their societies, our outstanding accomplishments as individuals, as groups, and as a species, in this scenario, would be witnesses of the beneficial effects of cultural accumulation and transmission over the ages.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3064932/#!po=78.8136

    Something interesting to ponder.

    And I don’t believe big brains are need for high IQ.

    https://notpoliticallycorrect.me/2017/10/28/microcephaly-and-normal-iq/

    Also read:

    http://www.human-existence.com/publications/Up%20from%20dragons%20skoyles%20Big%20Heads%20running%20evolution.pdf

    You would think that cutting out one-half of people’s brains would kill them, or at least leave them vegetables needing care for the rest of their lives. But it does not. Consider this striking story. A boy starts having seizures at 10 years of age when his right cerebral hemisphere atrophies. By the time he is 12, the left side of his body is paralyzed. When he is 19, surgeons decide to operate and remove the right side of his brain, as it is causing gits in his intact left one. You might think this would lower his IQ or leave him severely retarded, but no. His IQ shoots up 14 points, to 142! The mystery is not so great when you realize that the operation has gotten rid of the source of his fits, which had previously hampered his intelligence. When doctors saw him 15 years later, they described him as “having obtained a university diploma . . . [and now holding] a responsible administrative position with a local authority.”

    This quote is from the book Up From Dragons: The Evolution of Human Intelligence.

    And here is the source for the story:

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC496110/

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
  341. @CanSpeccy

    So you agree that genes, if defined as DNA sequences, on their own aren’t causes?

  342. utu says:
    @CanSpeccy

    You do realize, or presumably you don’t, that the above from that wonderful piece of wisdom from utu, equates SNP’s with genes, which invalidates the entire argument. In fact, there are a mere 25 to 30 thousand human genes.

    In other words, utu’s brilliant argument is completely misconceived.

    You are still upset. I know why. This must be your Scottish gene, right?

    I do not equate genes with SNP’s. Quite the opposite. You see, genes might be an outdated concept. They never had good definition. Where does a gene really begin and where does it end? Is junk DNA really junk? How come gene is not chopped and scrambled in the recombination process into junk? This problem is sidelined by sequencing everything and putting it into the model. The technology allows you do it now. It is cheap. That’s why they talk about SNPs, i.e., the nods of DNA in which we observe differences between members of the same specie. If they are different then they might be responsible for something, right. Only by multitude of SNP’s traits that have continuum can be explained. Only then the discreet effect of single gene or SNP’s can mimic an effect that has a continuum. You need 16 bits to get Hi-Fi music though probably 4 bits would be sufficient for rap. It took Hsu 20k-30k SNP’s to explain a significant part of height’s heritability.

    I knew what I was talking about but you forced me to look up confirmation. After a brief search I found this:

    YOUR GENES ARE OBSOLETE

    https://psmag.com/environment/genes-obsolete-dna-science-genome-80573

    This just in: genes ‘for’ disease might be an outdated concept!

    http://ecodevoevo.blogspot.com/2013/10/this-just-in-genes-for-disease-might-be.html

    The Evolving Definition of the Term “Gene”

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28360126

    his paper presents a history of the changing meanings of the term “gene,” over more than a century, and a discussion of why this word, so crucial to genetics, needs redefinition today. In this account, the first two phases of 20th century genetics are designated the “classical” and the “neoclassical” periods, and the current molecular-genetic era the “modern period.” While the first two stages generated increasing clarity about the nature of the gene, the present period features complexity and confusion. Initially, the term “gene” was coined to denote an abstract “unit of inheritance,” to which no specific material attributes were assigned. As the classical and neoclassical periods unfolded, the term became more concrete, first as a dimensionless point on a chromosome, then as a linear segment within a chromosome, and finally as a linear segment in the DNA molecule that encodes a polypeptide chain. This last definition, from the early 1960s, remains the one employed today, but developments since the 1970s have undermined its generality. Indeed, they raise questions about both the utility of the concept of a basic “unit of inheritance” and the long implicit belief that genes are autonomous agents. Here, we review findings that have made the classic molecular definition obsolete and propose a new one based on contemporary knowledge.

    Here, therefore, we will propose a definition that we believe comes closer to doing justice to the idea of the “gene,” in light of current knowledge. It makes no reference to “the unit of heredity”—the long-standing sense of the term—because we feel that it is now clear that no such generic universal unit exists.

    A gene is a DNA sequence (whose component segments do not necessarily need to be physically contiguous) that specifies one or more sequence-related RNAs/proteins that are both evoked by GRNs and participate as elements in GRNs, often with indirect effects, or as outputs of GRNs, the latter yielding more direct phenotypic effects.

    You see, gene is not even contiguous. This means that genes will be redefined in future because they were originally invented as topological segments while all what matters is definition based on functionality. Some SNP’s being far away from each other, perhaps even on different chromosomes, may end up constituting one gene if they function together to produce or modify some obscure protein. It is possible that concept of genes will be eventually abandoned. While the molecular biologist keep working on the semantical foundations of their science other will be linking all possible sequences of SNP’s to phenotypical traits. Actually, this kind of approach can contribute to functional definition of genes.

    • Agree: RaceRealist88
    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
  343. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @FKA Max

    Having read little about this for many years, I don’t know enough to comment critically. However, it is interesting stuff. It appears that the modulation of emotion is complex, involving both intracranial and visceral feedback loops. Depending on how those feedback systems normally work and whether they are defective at one or more places in the causal chain, an excess or deficiency of a neurotransmitter in one individual may be associated with behavior quite different to that in another individual.

    To take a simple example, the emotion evoked by a particular stimulus will vary due to both experience and inherent factors. The production of neurotransmitter A in response to the evoked emotion may be either high or low. The inhibitory feedback of A the emotion giving rise to its production may be high or low. Thus, as one can see from a matrix of all the possible combinations, the relationship between the production of A and a behavioral response is highly unpredictable. Moreover, the behavioral response to the emotion will modify perception and thus the production of A, both the magnitude and direction of the change in the perceived cause of emotion depending on a huge number of variables.

  344. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @RaceRealist88

    And I don’t believe big brains are need for high IQ.

    But unless it is known what machinery underlies IQ, it seems that there is no means to assess whether or not human intelligence can be vastly improved.

    • Replies: @RaceRealist88
  345. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @CanSpeccy

    My comment at #348 was in response to res at #342.

  346. @CanSpeccy

    The claim is big brains cause our IQs today. It’s been shown, reasonably well I made add, that people with erectus brains can have normal IQs. So there is a clue that overall size isn’t needed for our IQs in the modern range today. I don’t need to refer to machinery that underlies IQ (whatever that is) for my argument. Hell, just refer to the good amount of literature out there that shows that people with TBI and hemispherectomies still have normal IQs and lives. That’s great evidence that brain size isn’t all it’s cracked up to be.

    Also refer to that Herculano-Houzel and Kaas quote where they briefly talk about cultural transmission and acquisition being responsible for our societies today due to neanderthals and Heidelbergensis having a similar neuronal count to us. Gould wrote something similar in his book Full House. It’s an interesting thought experiment.

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
  347. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @utu

    RaceRealist88 agrees with you.

    LOL

    Look, an SNP is a single nucleotide in a DNA sequence. A gene is a DNA sequence that codes for a protein. Whether a gene consists in a continuous sequence or of sequences separated by unrelated sequences on the same chromosome or on different chromosomes is irrelevant. It is also irrelevant that some DNA sequences act as a part of several genes. There are still only 20,000 or so genes in the human genome.

    As for junk DNA, yes, it always seemed stupid to suggest that 90% of the genome is rubbish, but the controlling elements or whatever that exist in the realm of “junk DNA” are not genes because they don’t code for proteins.

    An interesting question that remains to be answered is to what extent regulatory components of the genome impact personality. Quite likely to a high degree, in which case there will be more than 20,000 or so sequences in the genome that influence personality, but that number will still be far short of the number of SNPs.

    • Replies: @utu
  348. Okechukwu says:
    @CanSpeccy

    Thanks for making a point that I might have made but did not; namely, that many immigrants to European society of whom you and your Afro bud are evidently prime examples, have a typical settler mentality, i.e., fuck the natives and give them poxy blankets if they’re stupid enough to accept them.

    By “settler mentality” I’m assuming you’re using European settler behavior as a reference point. Well immigrants to European societies cannot adopt those attitudes if they intend to survive. They don’t come with great military might with which to subdue native Europeans. They are obliged, out of necessity, to assimilate, to learn the language and customs, to obey the laws.

    (or today’s equivalent, a good indoctrination in politically correct self-hatred).

    On what planet is this happening? The world operates on reality, not on the voices in your head.

    Indeed, I am, in fact, an immigrant myself, but nevertheless opposed to mass immigration as a method of genocide against indigenous people, wherever such a method is employed.

    Then you are a prime contributor to the “genocide” you are decrying. Voluntarily repatriate yourself and set the example. In the United States at least (even under Trump), the immigration system doesn’t care who you are, where you come from or what color you are. Having white skin and hailing from England doesn’t confer any greater status. You’re just an immigrant, which, by the way, I am not.

    The consequence to interlopers such as youself of the vicious attitude you adopt to native Europeans may prove hazardous, since it may convince Europeans en mass that the only effective response they can adopt in dealing with the existential crisis created by mass immigration is mass expulsion of people such as you — or maybe just slaughter. Such things happen.

    Do not ever imagine that the unhinged viewpoints found on these kinds of blogs will ever translate to policy. What’s more likely to happen is that people like you will increasingly become intolerable. It would much easier and far more beneficial to society to quarantine or otherwise get rid of genocidal ethnic cleansers. Sans keyboards, your numbers are minuscule and your views are universally regarded as abhorrent.

    • Agree: Afrosapiens
    • Troll: CanSpeccy
    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
  349. utu says:
    @res

    Quantity into quality. Apparently it was Hegel who dealt with the issue first:

    “It is said that there are no sudden changes in nature, and the common view has it that when we speak of a growth or a destruction, we always imagine a gradual growth or disappearance. Yet we have seen cases in which the alteration of existence involves not only a transition from one proportion to another, but also a transition, by a sudden leap, into a … qualitatively different thing; an interruption of a gradual process, differing qualitatively from the preceding, the former state”

    Engels much expanded on it:

    In looking for examples of quantitative changes leading to a change in quality, Engels did not restrict himself to the physical world. He illustrated its application to the social realm by citing a curious example of it put forward by none other than Napoleon Bonaparte, who had had occasion to witness the equestrian prowess of Mameluke cavalrymen during his Egyptian campaign. According to Engels, Napoleon “… describes the conflicts between the French cavalry, bad riders but disciplined, with the Mamelukes who, as regards single combat were better horsemen but undisciplined, as follows—Two Mamelukes were a match for three Frenchmen, 100 Mamelukes were equal to 100 Frenchmen, 300 Frenchmen could beat 300 Mamelukes, and 1,000 Frenchmen invariably defeated 1,500 Mamelukes”

    I have no problem believing that intelligence differences are qualitative. Two different neural nets can’t even be quantitatively compared. Yes you can compare them in terms of number of nods and connections but they are qualitatively different. The one with larger number of nods and connections will be able to differentiate between, say, images that will be indistinguishable to the one with lower number of nods. When it comes to human brain the issue is what promotes creation of new connection and new neurons. How much of it is due to “chemicals” created by genes and how much it is due to experience and learning. Are the chemicals like fertilizers? No amount of exercise playing string instruments can cause growth of an extra finger but I am sure many things change in your brain while you practice violin. Is exercise and learning like combination of sunshine and pruning? We can’t change by environment number of fingers but we can change the brain. Yes, I do not have a problem that intelligence (whatever it is) differences are qualitative but the main issue is why they are different. What kind of fertilizer and what kind of sunshine and training is needed to increase intelligence?

  350. Okechukwu says:
    @silviosilver

    This a huge point of pride among blacks, I’ve noticed.

    Nope. Your absurd ideology holds that it’s a huge point of pride. In actuality, it’s no big deal.

    Just another reason whites should not want you in their countries or societies, imo. I mean, why invite in the agent of your demise? That’s nutty.

    You don’t speak for “whites.” Of the innumerable white persons I’ve encountered in my life (including my own wife) none has ever articulated this notion. In fact even you will only express these views within the cloak of Internet anonymity. That should give you an idea as to how revolting it is.

    • Replies: @Afrosapiens
  351. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @Okechukwu

    I don’t mind debating someone who disagrees with what I say, but I won’t engage with someone who misrepresents what I say and applies disparaging comments on my intelligence. In fact your vicious and irrational form of comment is the reason I seriously proposed that you could be a propagandist’s sock puppet, and possibly a sock puppet implemented by means of artificial intelligence with a view to destroying rational debate by the resort to hate speech and personal abuse.

    • Replies: @Okechukwu
  352. @RaceRealist88

    You’re learning quickly how to be a [IN]competent sociologist even your academic formation was nutritiology… It’s a personal accomplishment your exponential capacity to accumulates pseudo-knowledges…

    Maybe my english again was the villain…

    I asked if you have palatable SOURCES, i mean, studies, something you just love to do with your opponents.

    I did very clear/simple questions and as always you fail to explain your point of views and/or to answer this questions..

    • Replies: @RaceRealist88
  353. @RaceRealist88

    I don’t think he was necessarily reducing but emphazing or centralizing…

    Again….

    I think you truly don’t understand this subject…

    • Replies: @RaceRealist88
  354. @Santoculto

    You’re learning quickly how to be a [IN]competent sociologist even your academic formation was nutritiology… It’s a personal accomplishment your exponential capacity to accumulates pseudo-knowledges…

    What psuedo-knowledge? What’s sociology got to do with how genes work?

    It’s basic biology. Have you ever taken a bio 101 class? Genes aren’t ‘for’ anything, you need to look at the whole system and not a singular gene.

    All parts of the neo-Darwinist forms of representation encourage the use and acceptance of the other parts. Once one accepts the idea that the DNA and RNA templates form a ‘code’, the idea of the ‘genetic program’ follows naturally. That leads on to statements like ‘they [genes] created us body and mind’ (Dawkins, 1976; Dawkins, 2006), which gets causality wrong in two ways. First, it represents genes as active causes, whereas they are passive templates. Second, it ignores the many feedbacks on to the genome that contribute to circular causality, in which causation runs in both directions. Those mistakes lead to the distinction between replicators and vehicles. The problem lies in accepting the first step, the idea that there is a ‘code’ forming a complete program.

    http://jeb.biologists.org/content/218/1/7

    It would therefore be more correct to say that genes are not active causes; they are, rather, caused to give their information by and to the system that activates them. The only kind of causation that can be attributed to them is passive, much in the way a computer program reads and uses databases. The selfish gene idea therefore has to be interpreted not only as a metaphor, but as one that struggles to chime with modern biology. That is where the difficulties begin.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3060581/

    Good enough for you?

    • Replies: @Santoculto
    , @Santoculto
  355. @Santoculto

    I don’t think he was necessarily reducing but emphazing or centralizing…

    I think you truly don’t understand this subject…

    I understand it. You’re the one who doesn’t.

    Isolating MAOA as a ’cause’ makes no sense, even within gene networks. Behavior is much more complex than to be reduced to a gene, or even a gene in a gene network, causing X behavior.

    • Replies: @Santoculto
  356. Okechukwu says:
    @CanSpeccy

    Sure, bud. Here’s a fine example of your rationality:

    mass expulsion of people such as you — or maybe just slaughter. Such things happen.

    I don’t believe I’ve misrepresented you one whit. Indeed, I was rather mild in my censure of your comments.

    By the way, you claim to be a PhD in molecular biology. Well my wife is a newly minted PhD in the same discipline. She has been published extensively for a young scientist. If you knew her name you could find her publications and video presentations online. I’m familiar with much of her work and I’ve traveled with her to numerous scientific conferences around the world. Funny, the pseudoscience propagated on these boards seems nowhere to be found in legitimate scientific circles. In particular, the fixation on race. Real science doesn’t even recognize race. And to make the connection between race and intelligence, insofar as one believes that differences are discretely encoded genetically, would get you laughed out of any scientific conference I ever attended.

    • Replies: @utu
    , @John Jeremiah Smith
  357. utu says:
    @Okechukwu

    Real science doesn’t even recognize race.

    This statement to be true or false requires definitions of “race” and “real science”. While the definition of race is fairly easy, the definition of real science you may find to be a real challenge.

    • Replies: @Afrosapiens
  358. @Okechukwu

    Real science doesn’t even recognize race. And to make the connection between race and intelligence, insofar as one believes that differences are discretely encoded genetically, would get you laughed out of any scientific conference I ever attended.

    What’s that? You claim “real science” doesn’t recognize race, yet in the same breath you acknowledge “real science” conferences where race and intelligence are discussed? ;-)

    Fact is, “real science” recognizes race as a social construct that invalidly attributes to biology factors do not line up to make “race” a legitimate category in an exclusively biological sense. Speciation is where the rubber meets the race road, and what society calls “race” is not biologically sufficient to establish distinction along species or sub-species criteria.

    • Replies: @Okechukwu
  359. @res

    but have you never noticed qualitative differences between the thinking of people with widely different IQs?

    Whatever.

    1- You can’t subjectively assess one’s IQ
    2- You can’t really understand one’s thinking process past a certain level of complexity.

  360. @Okechukwu

    Nope. Your absurd ideology holds that it’s a huge point of pride. In actuality, it’s no big deal.

    Indeed. That’s only a huge point of frustration and anger among these beta bitches. The last victims of this were this couple during the “white lives matter” shitshow in Tennessee.

    http://www.theroot.com/white-lives-matter-members-attack-interracial-couple-af-1819969887

    #WhiteLivesMatterUnlessTheyAreWhiteWomenDatingBlackMen

    • Replies: @Okechukwu
  361. utu says:
    @CanSpeccy

    I am afraid this Scottish gene of yours is really handicapping you. Why are you laughing at RaceRealist88? He recognized that my argument was correct and you were wrong disparaging me for talking about SNPs instead of genes. And you knew it as this comment of yours proves that you understand this. Genes are just glorified lists of SNPs assembled by their function, though I presume there are genes that may have only single allele and thus have no SNPs. But then they are no longer interesting when looking at differences between the members of one specie because everybody has the same version of them so they cannot explain differences within the specie. When you want to find connection between a phenotype and genotype and when you have zero a prior information how genes may work for a given phenotype you just look at all possible SNPs because all possible functions has not been discovered yet and thus all possible lists of SNPs that we call genes have not been compiled. Genes might be on the way out as scientifically useful concept though they will stay in language as a shortcut.

    Now go in peace to fight your battle with Okechukwu and return to the battlefield with Afrosapiens from which you retreated. They may end up ferreting the racist out of you.

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
  362. @RaceRealist88

    Excellent whatever it is

    • Replies: @RaceRealist88
  363. @RaceRealist88

    The parts of your quotes you highlighted ”still” mean little, just so-story.

    Arguments and not empirical evidences.

    So it’s the ”system” that is dependent of genes to do some-thing*

    So the genes passively passed their informations to the ”system” and voi la, behavior happens… They are like just ”ingredients of recipes”. Well, a apple pie don’t exist without their ingredients…

    The author talked about …. circular thinking…. circular ….

    • Replies: @RaceRealist88
  364. @RaceRealist88

    So you don’t know what is the difference between isolating, reducing and emphasizing/centralizing*

    I understood that you don’t understand but pretend to be…

    Make a lot o sense specially if this gene have a impact in many outcomes and it can be used to find correlations of this outcomes.

    Behavior is much more complex than to be reduced to a gene, or even a gene in a gene network, causing X behavior.

    How explain Down Syndrome*

    Your conclusive statements are too strong and behavior IS NOT too complex as you want to think.

    • Replies: @RaceRealist88
  365. utu says:
    @John Jeremiah Smith

    Often the proof is outside of the system. Complete systems are too tight and thus might be self contradictory. Incomplete systems is what is our best bet. But then you will b able to construct unprovable statements. In case of correlating genome to trait the verification of causality will not come from mathematics. Even if all people with particular disease had allele X and all people w/o the diseases had allele Y this does not constitutes a proof of casualty. One will have to find the actual mechanism how particular genes participate in particular process.

    • Replies: @John Jeremiah Smith
  366. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @utu

    Why are you laughing at RaceRealist88? He recognized that my argument was correct and you were wrong

    LOL

    Either you won’t admit or you cannot understand when you are wrong.

    A SNP represents one nucleotide, a gene represents many bases in sequence, in fact often many millions of bases.

    The fact that the anti-white African racist backs you only confirms how wrong you are.

    And speaking of your buddies Okeychokey and Afrosap, they both ignoramuses and boors, without a rational argument between them. Why would I engage with them? Obviously, I won’t.

    • Replies: @Afrosapiens
    , @utu
  367. @Santoculto

    Yes, I proved my point.

    • Replies: @Santoculto
  368. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @Factorize

    It appears that the GoMax or whatever machine that beat the world champion relies on neural networks. Presumably if you add networks you increase apparent intelligence. This supports the idea that for humans to double in brainpower they would need heads approximately twice as big.

    Much simpler and better surely would be to rely on electronic intelligence aids, the sort of thing you can slip into your shirt pocket like and i-phone and consult as needed.

    What after all is the point of intelligence? It is to satisfy human desires. Therefore, there is no point in building more intelligence into the human frame if you can carry more conveniently in fifty-dollar gadget. In any case, states or other global actors will build super duper AI machines that will outwit all the brains you can grow or carry in your pocket.

    What that means is that the real question about the future that people should ask is what future is there for people, other than the handful at the top who own the AI machines, including AI controlled weapons systems etc.

  369. @utu

    While the definition of race is fairly easy

    Go ahead, define it!

    • Replies: @RaceRealist88
    , @utu
  370. @Santoculto

    The parts of your quotes you highlighted ”still” mean little, just so-story.

    Just because you don’t understand something doesn’t make it a just-so story.

    Arguments and not empirical evidences.

    Reapeat after me: ARGUMENTS ARE EVIDENCE! Funny how the guy who talks about philosophy doesn’t understand this. Data-collection is science, pondering the results is philosophizing.

    So it’s the ”system” that is dependent of genes to do some-thing*

    Kinda sorta. Genes don’t ‘do’ anything without being directed by the system.

    So the genes passively passed their informations to the ”system” and voi la, behavior happens… They are like just ”ingredients of recipes”. Well, a apple pie don’t exist without their ingredients…

    No the system uses genes to carry out functions. Genes on their own don’t ‘do’ anything:

    In this systems view, the causality flows from the system state through a change in use of DNA that results in a change in the production of RNA and protein, which in turn perturbs the system’s dynamics.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4048083/

    The gene needs to be ‘told’ what to do by the system, without the system, the gene is basically useless. To use Dawkins’ (wrong) jargon, the vehicles (bodies) existed before the replicators (genes).

    The unavoidable answer is that the “machine” existed before the genes as a self-assembled entity; the genes (whether directly as DNA, or via RNA) came later.

    https://thepsychologist.bps.org.uk/so-what-gene

    The second reason is a much more conceptual issue. I think that as a gene-centric view of evolution, the modern synthesis has got causality in biology wrong. Genes, after all, if they’re defined as DNA sequences, are purely passive. DNA on its own does absolutely nothing until activated by the rest of the system through transcription factors, markers of one kind or another, interactions with the proteins. So on its own, DNA is not a cause in an active sense. I think it is better described as a passive data base which is used by the organism to enable it to make the proteins that it requires.

    https://www.huffingtonpost.com/suzan-mazur/replace-the-modern-sythes_b_5284211.html

    Basic biology. . . Genes are used by the system to code for proteins. Genes ‘on their own’ do not ’cause’ anything.

    As I said earlier, people think of genes as God (it’s funny how atheists deify genes and don’t know it).

    • Replies: @Santoculto
  371. @CanSpeccy

    The fact that the anti-white African racist backs you only confirms how wrong you are.

    Guilty by association. Sorry, that’s not an argument.

  372. @Santoculto

    So you don’t know what is the difference between isolating, reducing and emphasizing/centralizing*

    They’re pretty much synonyms.

    How explain Down Syndrome*

    I don’t know.

    Your conclusive statements are too strong and behavior IS NOT too complex as you want to think.

    I provided evidence and arguments. Refute with an argument or concede the point. This is how this works.

    • Replies: @Santoculto
  373. @Afrosapiens

    Go ahead, define it!

    Genetically isolated breeding populations.

    • Replies: @Afrosapiens
  374. @RaceRealist88

    Genetically isolated breeding populations.

    How much isolation?
    How long do they need to be isolated to become races?

    Like what percentage of endogamous reproduction over what period of time can make a race?

    Are African-Americans a different race since they left Africa and and bred with Amerindians and Europeans?

  375. Okechukwu says:
    @John Jeremiah Smith

    What’s that? You claim “real science” doesn’t recognize race, yet in the same breath you acknowledge “real science” conferences where race and intelligence are discussed? ;-)

    Indeed I did not. I think you misunderstood me. Race and intelligence is absolutely the last topic that would ever be discussed at a credible scientific conference. The race and intelligence ideology has as much scientific currency as astrology or flat-earthism.

    Fact is, “real science” recognizes race as a social construct that invalidly attributes to biology factors do not line up to make “race” a legitimate category in an exclusively biological sense. Speciation is where the rubber meets the race road, and what society calls “race” is not biologically sufficient to establish distinction along species or sub-species criteria.

    I couldn’t have said it better. To demonstrate how unscientific the idea of race really is, consider the case of Henrietta Lacks:

    Medical researchers use laboratory-grown human cells to learn the intricacies of how cells work and test theories about the causes and treatment of diseases. The cell lines they need are “immortal”—they can grow indefinitely, be frozen for decades, divided into different batches and shared among scientists. In 1951, a scientist at Johns Hopkins Hospital in Baltimore, Maryland, created the first immortal human cell line with a tissue sample taken from a young black woman with cervical cancer. Those cells, called HeLa cells, quickly became invaluable to medical research—though their donor remained a mystery for decades.

    Henrietta’s cells were the first immortal human cells ever grown in culture. They were essential to developing the polio vaccine. They went up in the first space missions to see what would happen to cells in zero gravity. Many scientific landmarks since then have used her cells, including cloning, gene mapping and in vitro fertilization.

    https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/henrietta-lacks-immortal-cells-6421299/

    I confess, I had no idea that these cells were donated by a black woman. My wife has used HeLa cells for years and she didn’t know. For decades HeLa has been the most prolific and influential cell line in scientific research all over the world.

  376. @utu

    Often the proof is outside of the system.

    Not to be finicky, but proof per se is always “outside” the system, in the sense of logic, premise, premise, conclusion. (Logic and forcing argument not being biological, but abstractions of relationships.)

    I’ve been reading some on epigenetics, which I am not convinced is all it’s cracked up to be, but may prove interesting if that + classical evolutionary genetics turns out to be a lot more than previously thought.

    • Replies: @utu
    , @RaceRealist88
  377. utu says:
    @CanSpeccy

    A SNP represents one nucleotide, a gene represents many bases in sequence, in fact often many millions of bases.

    Correct. But SNP is the only one that may differ in population that’s why there is the letter P in its name. All the other bases are the same for everybody in population. So while the whole sequence of bases is important to do the work the genes do on biomolecular chemistry level, only SNPs need to be considered when linking traits to genes. What is invariant throughout the population is irrelevant, not on biochemistry level but for explaining the phenotypical variance within the population.

    The fact that the anti-white African racist backs you only confirms how wrong you are.

    Wow, this can’t be explained by the Scottish gene alone. Is it Scotch?

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
  378. utu says:
    @John Jeremiah Smith

    classical evolutionary genetics turns out to be a lot more than previously thought

    It would be definitely much more interesting.

    but proof per se is always “outside” the system

    I do not think so. In axiomatic system all theorems are derived from the set of axioms. Nothing else is added from outside. The theorems are true in terms of axioms which are axiomatically true. The theorems are the true statements of the system defined by the set of axioms plus rules of logic. However one can formulate statements within the system that can’t be decided if they are true or false within the system. To decide it a different set of axioms is required.

  379. Okechukwu says:
    @Afrosapiens

    Indeed. That’s only a huge point of frustration and anger among these beta bitches. The last victims of this were this couple during the “white lives matter” shitshow in Tennessee.

    Thanks, I wasn’t aware of this incident. Notice how these pussies are only “brave” behind their keyboards or in large groups. The fatal flaw in their fantasies is the presumption that people will just line up like sheep to be brutalized by these people. One thing that everybody has to understand is that this new generation of black people won’t put up with this shit. Direct retaliatory action as opposed to marches and appeals to the NAACP. Yeah, write all the junk you want on the Internet but if you accost me in real life I will drop you.

    • Replies: @Afrosapiens
    , @utu
  380. @John Jeremiah Smith

    “I’ve been reading some on epigenetics, which I am not convinced is all it’s cracked up to be, but may prove interesting if that + classical evolutionary genetics turns out to be a lot more than previously thought.”

    What doesn’t convince you?

    • Replies: @John Jeremiah Smith
  381. @Okechukwu

    Notice how these pussies are only “brave” behind their keyboards or in large groups.

    What’s even more pathetic is that they brutalize their “own” women every time they go out to “save the white race”. I hope they’re working on a way to enable male homosexual reproduction because something tells me there won’t be many women alive in their dreamed “ethnostate”.

    Yeah, write all the junk you want on the Internet but if you accost me in real life I will drop you.

    Yup. Most of them are here out of extreme fear of blacks and would shut their stinky mouth even before the tiniest black kid on the street.

    • Agree: Okechukwu
  382. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @utu

    Most SNPs occur in the intergene portions of the chromosome. In humans, there is an average of 70 SNP’s per gene. However, since selection reduces the frequency of deleterious SNP’s, most will be either without affect on fitness or will be beneficial under some circumstances.

    It is the existence of SNP’s that gives rise to recognizable alleles of a gene. However, since most SNP’s are probably neutral in effect, there will be many fewer functionally recognizable alleles than there are SNP’s. Moreover, not all alleles are present with a significant frequency in every population. Thus, within a population, the number of functionally different alleles per gene will be a very small fraction of the number of SNP’s per gene that have been identified worldwide.

    Thus, reverting to the original point in contention, genetic determination of personality is dependent on the action not of millions of SNPs but on the action of, at most, a few thousand genes that, in any population, will each have only a limited number of alleles.

    The point about the now seemingly resident Africans, whether they be in silico or in the flesh, is that they are vicious, anti-white racists, and while I have no objection to anyone being for their own kind, indeed I consider anyone who is not for their own kind either a fool or a traitor, I certainly expect civilized people to show respect for people of other groups. Thus, when Africans come to the West or engage with people in the West over the Internet and insult them on the basis of their race or otherwise engage in blatant race-baiting, while adding little if anything of intellectual value to the conversation, then I judge that they are either vicious and stupid people, or that they are serving some propaganda function. Either way, they are not to be taken as a guide to the truth of a proposition.

    As for the Scotch question, I’ve never touched the stuff after drinking too much of it at an undergraduate party over half a century ago.

    • Replies: @utu
  383. utu says:
    @Afrosapiens

    Go ahead, define it!

    It is easy.

    Police Lineup Method: Lineup all N people on Earth and ask everybody to pick people they feel high affinity with or not. Then collect results. Each person will have N-1 votes and also N-1 votes she/he casted. Do some factor analysis and the data and you will end up with virtually disjoint subsets. The overlaps will constitute mixed race people. (One thing, blind people can’t vote.)

    Prison Method: Lock up everybody in one large prison and wait. Eventually prison gangs will form themselves and they will represent racial/ethnic segregation.

    Genetic Distance Method: Define genetic distance between two persons based on their genome (all possible SNPs values). This distance will allow you to identify clusters by the proximity where people within the cluster on average have closer proximity than people from separate clusters.

    All three methods will yield similar results.

    They do not have everybody genotyped. But they have some good idea about SNPs and races. You can send your DNA sample to 23andMe and you will find out what your race is. Certainly they will not tell you that your people came from Europe Seine River region or anywhere else in Europe or Asia. But if you still have doubts about your race which apparently you have as you and your buddy Okechukwu and his silly wife think that races do not exist (because you read so in the papers) all three of you are welcome to the police lineup at NYPD.

    • Replies: @Afrosapiens
  384. Thus, when Africans come to the West or engage with people in the West over the Internet and insult them on the basis of their race

    Come on, don’t be such a fragile snowflake.

  385. Okechukwu says:

    Thus, when Africans come to the West or engage with people in the West over the Internet and insult them on the basis of their race or otherwise engage in blatant race-baiting, while adding little if anything of intellectual value to the conversation, then I judge that they are either vicious and stupid people, or that they are serving some propaganda function.

    Oh, shut up. Africans are the West. We’ve been in the West for hundreds, nay, thousands of years. And in the most powerful Western country (the United States), Africans built the country, fought in every single war and significantly shaped what it means to be Western.

    Do not expect us to defer to you. You’re a nothing that is about as important as a piece of gunk stuck to the bottom of my shoe.

  386. I do not think so. In axiomatic system all theorems are derived from the set of axioms. Nothing else is added from outside.

    That being obvious, do you reject Godel’s incompleteness theorems?

    FWIW, I referred to logic itself as being “outside”. Perhaps it is part of the operating system. I was pointing out that the components of logic operate to prove, but are themselves outside the context of what is proved.

  387. @utu

    The police line up and the prison gang methods you’re describing are basically a way to say race is a social construct based on visible traits which is the definition most specialists agree on.

    You’re mistaken on genetic distance however. Genetic analysis can group people in pre-defined clusters. But two people of different races can genetically be more similar than two people of the same race.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_genetic_clustering#Similarity_of_group_members

    What’s lacking is a threshold of genetic dissimilarity that would allow to assign two individuals to different populations that would match culturally defined races.

    So no, you have not defined race genetically in a way that’s meaningful at the individual level.

    • Replies: @utu
  388. utu says:
    @CanSpeccy

    since selection reduces the frequency of deleterious SNP’s, most will be either without affect on fitness or will be beneficial under some circumstances – I do not reason from evolution but to evolution. There are some traits that should be deleterious like a-holiness but apparently were not weeded out by evolution. To be safe all SNPs need to be taken into account.

    many fewer functionally recognizable alleles than there are SNP’s – The key word is recognizable and “so far.” There might be subtle effect of the ones that are currently recognized as idle. As they will identified the individual genes will have to be redefine. This is another reason why it is more robust to talk about SNPs rather than genes.

    genetic determination of personality is dependent on the action not of millions of SNPs but on the action of, at most, a few thousand genes – While it sounds reasonable you might be off by one zero. To get height to within the c. 50% heritability takes 20k-30k SNPs.
    ______________
    No question about it that the two Africans like the majority of Negroes who live among whites are racists. So what. Would you prefer them to perfectly pretend that they are not. The pretense is required for civil society. And the Whites through the pedagogy of guilt that is relentlessly applied to them are being trained to exercise the pretense when it comes to the racial issues. Unfortunately the same pedagogy is not directed at Blacks.

    My experience in America, where I was forced to adopt white identity, which I did not know because I grew up in country where racial identity did not function as everybody was of the same race, made me realize that there will be no harmony between races. There are only two solutions: separation or destruction of races by complete miscegenation. The latter is what the two fellows from Africa have on their minds.

    I operate on the benefit of doubt approach. I assume that there are no racial differences that would pertains to intellectual capacities and that emotional differences might be racial but are small enough and could be overcome by culture, however we will never overcome the optical effects. And they might be the most important. And you can’t do away with it.

    People of different external phenotypes will allways tend to create clusters of similar phenotype. Once they create the cluster they create their own subculture and separate identity. Once they have separate identity and separate subculture you cannot achieve as much harmony as in mono-racial society. So if Afrosapiens or Okechukwu ever came to my old country and asked for the permanent residence I would rejected them not because they are too stupid or too smart or too insolent or too polite but because they do not look right and their children will not look right.

    People of different ethnic groups as long as they share the same external phenotype as majority can assimilate because they can practice mimicry (in first generation) so they are not noticed (until they open their mouth) and eventually they may end up believing that they are like the majority. This how assimilation suppose to work providing there are no crazy religious differences. But when Okechukwu wakes up in the morning and goes to shave the first thing he sees is his black African face. No mimicry is possible. He can’t lose his black identity because he is reminded of the fact that he is not white not by the actions of whites but by his face in the mirror every morning. It really comes down to the optics. All our lives and for generations people are taught that we are the same below the skin which might be true but it does not matte. The color of the skin is sufficient to keep people apart. So be it. Keep it apart.

    • Replies: @Okechukwu
  389. utu says:
    @Okechukwu

    these pussies are only “brave” behind their keyboards or in large groups

    Yeah, write all the junk you want on the Internet but if you accost me in real life I will drop you.

    Okechukwu, welcome home. Finally you have arrived. At last you got in touch with your Niggerhood.

    • LOL: Daniel Chieh
    • Replies: @Afrosapiens
    , @Okechukwu
  390. FKA Max says: • Website
    @Santoculto

    Discovered another typo above: … low-activity MAOA plays an important role in that behavior, in my opinion, no matter if the behavior takes place and plays itself out in the open for everyone to see, or behind closed *doors*.

    I am not quite sure where exactly you read (into my comment) that I suggested that low-activity MAOA is correlated with verbal skills?

    My main point was that the aggressiveness caused by low-activity MAOA can express itself in different ways/forms, e.g. verbal, physical, passive-aggressive, etc.

    Higher IQ/intelligence, low-activity MAOA carriers tend to opt for verbal, passive-aggressive aggression/behaviors, in my opinion, rather than physical violence/aggression, since it won’t land them in prison, etc.

    The following, nicely illustrated, distinction between “aggression” and ”assertiveness” is a useful one to keep in mind as well. Assertiveness = “I clearly express that we both have rights and needs” Sociopathic personalities are usually not assertive but rather aggressive. They are not interested in or cannot perceive of “win-win” situations. They have to be and feel victorious at any price, all the time.

    Source: https://www.dreamstime.com/stock-illustration-behavior-types-different-kind-human-passive-passive-aggressive-aggressive-assertive-image61553265

    Phil Spector’s Gunplay Obsession Out of Control

    Phil Spector is the prime example of the “worrier warrior” type, in my opinion. http://www.unz.com/jthompson/the-worlds-iq-86/#comment-2059963

    Thank you very much, Santoculto, for keeping an open mind regarding the effects, etc. of low-activity MAOA.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  391. @utu

    At last you got in touch with your Niggerhood.

    I think Niggerhood was intended as a compliment. Any man who talks to a white supremacist asshole when he has the opportunity to beat his ass deserves nothing but contempt.

    • Replies: @utu
  392. Okechukwu says:
    @utu

    Okechukwu, welcome home. Finally you have arrived. At last you got in touch with your Niggerhood.

    GTF outta here. Funny how I never run into you guys in the real world. In fact no white person has ever called me nigger in real life. Based on the frenetic and voluminous activity on the Internet, you would think I would at least occasionally encounter one of these guys. But they’re no where to be found. You would think that people who are seemingly so committed to this “cause” would occasionally drop their keyboards and transition to reality. But no.

    White supremacists, nazis and the like, like all other bullies, only understand the language of force. What happened in Rhodesia? Ian Smith was bragging about a thousand year reich. Next thing you know, the blacks started perforating them, and his government was gone within a few years. If the blacks had done peaceful marches and sit-ins, they would’ve been slaughtered and Rhodesia would still be there.

    I repeat, black people won’t put up with the nonsense. Those clamoring for a race war had better figure out how to defeat 2,000 Taliban goat herders before they dream of taking on tens of millions of people on their own land. Of course if the shit ever hit the fan they’ll be hiding in their basements waging “war” with their semen-encrusted keyboards.

    • Replies: @bomag
  393. utu says:
    @Afrosapiens

    You are suffering from reading comprehension problem or just don’t believe your own lying eyes.

    But two people of different races can genetically be more similar than two people of the same race.

    This meme was created many years ago, if I remember correctly, using blood types long before the genome was sequenced. Everybody loved it and since then it was accepted as the absolute truth by members of the semi-educated obrazovanshchina to which you apparently aspire to belong.

    If you read what is in the wiki entry you have linked you find the following:

    Clustering of individuals is correlated with geographic origin or ancestry

    Examination of the relationship between genetic and geographic distance supports a view in which the clusters arise not as an artifact of the sampling scheme, but from small discontinuous jumps in genetic distance for most population pairs on opposite sides of geographic barriers, in comparison with genetic distance for pairs on the same side. Thus, analysis of the 993-locus dataset corroborates our earlier results: if enough markers are used with a sufficiently large worldwide sample, individuals can be partitioned into genetic clusters that match major geographic subdivisions of the globe, with some individuals from intermediate geographic locations having mixed membership in the clusters that correspond to neighboring regions

    For population pairs from the same cluster, as geographic distance increases, genetic distance increases in a linear manner, consistent with a clinal population structure. However, for pairs from different clusters, genetic distance is generally larger than that between intracluster pairs that have the same geographic distance. For example, genetic distances for population pairs with one population in Eurasia and the other in East Asia are greater than those for pairs at equivalent geographic distance within Eurasia or within East Asia.

    Rosenberg et al. also dutifully stated: “should not be taken as evidence of our support of any particular concept of biological race (…). Genetic differences among human populations derive mainly from gradations in allele frequencies rather than from distinctive ‘diagnostic’ genotypes.” Which is a lie but everybody knows he has children who need to eat, right? By sending your DNA to 23andMe you will find out why it is a lie because they will have no problem whatsoever with diagnosing you with a severe case of negroidalitis.

    He also had to state what was translated as ‘Thirdly they comment that evidence of clusterdness is not evidence for any concepts of “biological race”‘. Which is obviously meaningless. Because to discover races you need to define them first. And his clustering studies can be used to define the race. You could draw a map of continents with his studies.

    The result if these studies will be congruent with Police Lineup Method but they are not based on any a prior inputs about the phenotype that you consider would be subjective. The clustering studies are based only on your spit or rather blood, genome sequencing and mathematical methods. I know that mathematical methods were invented by white man and mathematics might be racist

    University of Illinois professor publishes written theory explaining why mathematics coursework ‘perpetuates white privilege’
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5018223/Professor-says-math-perpetuates-white-privilege.html#ixzz4xEkO5RfG

    but we have nothing better to replace it with. Tell Okechukwu to stop fantasizing about beating up white people and apply his phenomenal Nigerian mind to invent new math that does not oppress Black people.

    A sample of dog saliva can identify dog’s breed with almost 100% accuracy. Let suppose that black poodles object to this and claim that there are no breeds (clusters) because they are against breeds. What would you tell the black poodle? You can be against the breeds. It is fine with me though not necessarily with God. But breeds do exist and you can’t deny it. I know you are a poodle w/o seeing you, w/o touching you, w/o listening how you bark, w/o smelling you. All I need is a sample of your DNA. You are not a doberman or pitt bull which as a black poodle you really know it too but you are in denial or lying because this is your political argument not factual argument. Keep arguing you are against the breeds and you would like to mix poodles with pit bulls and dobermans. Say it as it is. You want to liquidate all races and replace them with mongrels. It is fine, but do not use the fake fact that there are no races in this argument. YOUR GOAL IS TO LIQUIDATE RACES. Say it!

    • Replies: @Afrosapiens
  394. Factorize says:
    @FKA Max

    I agree with your p.s. .

    Mr. Ron Unz should be congratulated for opening the channels of communication about these difficult questions. The topics discussed here are not openly discussed in an honest way elsewhere. While it is clear that sometimes the discussion on this blog can devolve into a skirmish between kindergartners, this is a consequence of making these highly charged subjects taboo. This blogosphere is a valiant effort to try and gain the psychological maturity needed to graduate our inner-preschoolers from nursery school. Mr. Unz should be praised for facilitating the conversation.

    I would never and I have never expressed my opinion on group cognitive differences with as much candor as I have on this site. None of my comments have been made with an intent of giving offence, but instead have reflected my best judgment of what is scientifically justified.

    Moreover, my main motivation for my posting is that I feel that we have reached a turning point at which genetic technology will remove group cognitive differences. This is now a post-racial world. Future discussion of race will likely focus more on the human race and more particularly how cognitively impaired all humans are in comparison to those with genetically enhanced intelligence.

    • Replies: @FKA Max
  395. bomag says:
    @John Jeremiah Smith

    Intelligence is a factor, but intelligence is a fluid potential for what can be, not a fixed definition of limits.

    Seems consonant with most people’s stance.

    A “potential for what can be” and “fixed definition of limits” seems like a distinction without a difference.

    • Replies: @John Jeremiah Smith
  396. bomag says:
    @Okechukwu

    Blacks taking over Rhodesia is not exactly a rousing success story.

  397. Okechukwu says:

    By sending your DNA to 23andMe you will find out why it is a lie because they will have no problem whatsoever with diagnosing you with a severe case of negroidalitis.

    23andMe can also delineate ancestry down to the level of tribes within countries, given sufficient reference samples. So why are you stuck on the three races paradigm? Why not 1,000 races or 10,000? Race isn’t so much unreal as it is arbitrary, making it meaningless. No one says that there aren’t genetic differences between different populations of humans. There are even genetic differences between you and your immediate family members. In fact if you want to parse differences in the minutia, theoretically you and your brother are members of different races.

    Whether race is real or not is absolutely immaterial to me. Race being real would not ipso facto uphold supremacist ideologies. I just go with the science and the reality. Science says race doesn’t exist because all humans are, broadly, genetic carbon copies of each other. All humans can assimilate any other human culture and are able to produce fertile offspring interracially. Reality says that race means different things to different people and that an idea of race changes with time and place. Our races in America are not the same races elsewhere. And it was only in the 20th century that a whole host of European ethnicities were brought under the “white” umbrella.

    • Replies: @res
  398. utu says:
    @Afrosapiens

    Any man who talks to a white supremacist asshole when he has the opportunity to beat his ass deserves nothing but contempt.

    Really? Are you speaking for yourself? How many people you have beaten up so far? None, right? Is it because they were not supremacist or not sufficient assholes? Believe me, majority of white people are supremacists. They believe that white race is superior. You only have to ask them some clever questions. Obviously they will vehemently deny it, but they believe they are better than black people. They just prefer not to think about it and not to dwell about it and that’s why they move to white neighborhoods so they do not have to think about you guys. You know, out of sight out of mind. Have you noticed that some white people are exceptionally nice to you? Do you know why? This is an affirmative action in action on a personal level. It directly stems from their supremacism and they are covering it up with their ultra kindness. White people are extremely perfidious. The more supremacist they are the less assholish they are among blacks. Tough luck, it won’t be easy for you to find a white supremacist asshole.

    • Replies: @John Jeremiah Smith
  399. @RaceRealist88

    What doesn’t convince you?

    I don’t believe, at this point, that gene expression amounts to adaptive evolution as adaptive evolution is defined, i.e. as a change in DNA. Phenotypic change from environmental effect, yes. Heritable, of course because no change has taken place. Adaptive evolution? Nope. That requires true mutation.

  400. @bomag

    A “potential for what can be” and “fixed definition of limits” seems like a distinction without a difference.

    What can I say? English is my native language, and I am unblushingly good at it. The distinction has a difference, clearly.

  401. @utu

    The more supremacist they are the less assholish they are among blacks. Tough luck, it won’t be easy for you to find a white supremacist asshole.

    Do I concern myself with black supremacists? Nope. To anyone who wishes to concern himself with white supremacists, I say …

    knock

    yourself

    out

    chump.

  402. Bliss says:
    @CanSpeccy

    Since you provide no references or rationale for your sweeping and ridiculous-sounding generalizations, your comments are not interesting.

    The reference is the very post you are commenting on. Didn’t you even bother to look at the IQ data the blogger James Thompson is writing about? Read it:

    https://doc-04-ag-docs.googleusercontent.com/docs/securesc/ha0ro937gcuc7l7deffksulhg5h7mbp1/nqdicjc71irbisv8icofq0sd2v7m7rhr/1509602400000/11946608770440608750/*/0B3c4TxciNeJZWUx5bzBWZ1BuMUk?e=download

    Anyone who can read a spreadsheet can see that the germanic nations cluster around 100, the Slavic nations around 95, and the Mediterranean nations around 90. What more “rationale” do you need to recognize the IQ hierarchy among the european sub-races?

    I am guessing you are in denial because you belong to the mediterranean sub-race. Don’t worry, the original poster James Thompson has promised that next week the IQ scores will be adjusted to appease your hurt feelings. IQ is obviously susceptible to political pressure…

  403. @RaceRealist88

    You proved nothing as usual only about yourself.

  404. @RaceRealist88

    Isolating and reducing are quasi-synonimous in this context but they are different than emphasizing or centralizing because this last are open to find another correlations and work with it.

    Isolating // reducing // centralizing // emphasizing

    He is centralizing//emphasizing even because he already created different COMBINATIONS with this ”gene” and saying: ”this gene don’t cause directly everything-related-with-violence but in-combination”.

    I provided evidence and arguments. Refute with an argument or concede the point. This is how this works.

    As expected by you a extremely pedantic piece as above where supposedly you know how this works…

    Epigenetics wasn’t created to clarify human and non-human behavior mechanisms but exactly to complicate it, reducing this subject to endless and maybe unimportant details and why*

    (((IDEOLOGY)))

    The same ideology that is africanizing your loved Italy.

    So, genes are not important, but…

    in epigenetics, genes are extremely important because they can be off or on, isn’t*

    ”passive” or ”active” if the genes are off, so based on epigenetics, the behavior will be changed… isn’t*

    Or you are extremely dishonest/aka evil, or you are extremely dumb, i often think you’re both via other ”debates” with you here and in PP blog.

    Epigenetics seems a useless neo-concept that highlight the obvious: we don’t inherit a complete [behavioral] static genes, they/we are flexible in their interaction with environment BUT in limited ways. Some genes are more resilient, others are less, because personal nature or because its own nature.

    Everyone who are capable to develop a very good and constant self-knowledge can conclude that most of their own behavior is due to themselves in individualized response to environment and not that ”THE environment” change our behavior without we, ourselves, have perceived.

    We are the most self-conscious living beings of this planet,

    But our subconscious/aka genes/instincts are still powerful [you're a great example of this],

    Because this instincts are our first or fundamental self-refferences, we need start from something,

    Our behavior is flexible but in limited ways: a not-so-smart person [you for example] cannot become extremely smart by unknown or meta-physical reasons,

    evolution can’t jump steps, we also don’t.

    People have fixed potentialities OR limitations. There are exceptions for example some rare injuries.

    Physically akward people have hard time to become a athlete specially if they born with skeletal deformities or lack of stamina.

    Environment is important to trigger different behavioral responses but not exactly at the same levels of individual reaction. OBVIOUS that environment, the place we live is in someway important but not in the short-term-deterministic way you and many here believe.

    Some people born with mental disorders, i mean, chronic incapacity to re-estabilize their own behavior specially about the most disordered feature. But still there are differences among mental disordered people, obvious examples: high iq schizophrenic versus lower iq schizophrenic; schizotypal versus full-blown schizo, etc…

    Nothing complex to explain why a schyzotipal person is very likely to be more functional than a full-blown schizophrenic… = less generally disordered.

    Nothing complex to explain why a high iq schizophrenic person is very likely to be more functional than a lower iq schizophrenic person… = less cognitively disordered.

    People interact one each other in different ways [gene-gene interaction], interpret this interactions in different ways [individual genetic/physiological/behavioral response], adapt to the same micro-environments in different ways and levels [gene-environmental interactions]… All this is important.

    How do YOU explain sons who are raised in the same house can ”develop” different personalities*

    It’s a HUGE and extremely common evidence that

    environment, whatever it is, cannot equalize behavior of different people.

    BUT, there are people AND people and just because people are intractably individually diverse independent the levels of symmetry of their environments it’s mean something about the imperative/ultimate role of genetics on behavior.

    Human behavior is not THAT complex as you want to believe…

    Very poor and dangerous places where there are disproportional rates of criminals BUT there are people who are not = GENETICS and not environment can explain this. Even when we have a case of a person/specially a man who was raised in chronically dysfunctional family and don’t became equally dysfunctional.

    Do you already knew the concept of psychological resilience*

    You have a hard time to understand and differentiate in very basic ways correlations and causalities, concrete and abstract information.

    Just because southern italians are on avg less intelligent than northern /and central ones…

    • Replies: @RaceRealist88
  405. @Santoculto

    I’ll respond to your ramblings later, one point now

    “You have a hard time to understand and differentiate in very basic ways correlations and causalities, concrete and abstract information.

    Just because southern italians are on avg less intelligent than northern /and central ones…”

    Yawn. Why do you use so many fallacies?

    http://www.unz.com/jthompson/the-worlds-iq-86/#comment-2057143

    You’re also using (supposed) group averages to infer information about an individual. Hmmm..

    Why the hell are you telling ME about causality, when I’m schooling you on genes and causality right now?

    “Epigenetics wasn’t created to clarify human and non-human behavior mechanisms but exactly to complicate it, reducing this subject to endless and maybe unimportant details and why*”

    Lol you don’t even know what epigenetics is so why are you talking? I can extend this to the IQ ideology, it’s ideology based on correlations. Epigenetics is a new field but it’s a real phenomenon. Do some reading on epigenetics and get back to me because you’re woefully misinformed.

    • Replies: @Santoculto
  406. @RaceRealist88

    You’re easily dazzled with this type of academic verborragy that often obscure the clear understanding of the main ideas….

    Just because southern italians are on avg dumber as you…

    Completely triggered by yourself/instincts…

    Science is exactly the opposite of MOST if not ALL garbage studies you love to quote… and NEVER or RARELLY you truly argument with your OWN WORDS, you know this is the fundamental metric way to differentiate real knowledgeables from fakers, i still hope…

    Kinda sorta. Genes don’t ‘do’ anything without being directed by the system.

    OH my god!!!

    No the system uses genes to carry out functions. Genes on their own don’t ‘do’ anything

    …. genes are ingredients**

    So for example, i want to run right now. I prepare myself and i start to run. My peripheral nervous system is sending mensages to my central nervous system as well to my hormonal, muscular and skeletal systems just like a orchestra. I’m preparing a recipe with my ingredients, aka, genes.

    Without this ingredients, for example, if i have locomotion troubles/ ”genes-off”, so i will not be capable to run in proper ways.

    conclusion =

    passive or active, without genes = without given behavior…

    what is my score teacher**

    ”The gene needs to be ‘told’ what to do by the system, without the system, the gene is basically useless.”

    But without genes, system no have a pre-defined function*

    A farmer without a farm*

    To use Dawkins’ (wrong) jargon, the vehicles (bodies) existed before the replicators (genes).

    Too abstract to me. Clarify this.

    This theories already were proved or is just-so-stories too**

    Basic biology. . .

    Genes are used by the system to code for proteins. Genes ‘on their own’ do not ’cause’ anything.

    Third time you repeat this.

    What is the ”system”**

    As I said earlier, people think of genes as God (it’s funny how atheists deify genes and don’t know it).

    Epigenetic people also love to deify genes, off or on…

    I don’t think so, maybe it’s just a strawman.

    • Replies: @RaceRealist88
  407. @RaceRealist88

    ”You’re also using (supposed) group averages to infer information about an individual. Hmmm..”

    *supposed*

    A individual avg joey of given population tend to represent in invariable ways your own avg-pop.

    Why the hell are you telling ME about causality, when I’m schooling you on genes and causality right now?

    Megalomania is a sad disease…

    Lol you don’t even know what epigenetics is so why are you talking? I can extend this to the IQ ideology, it’s ideology based on correlations. Epigenetics is a new field but it’s a real phenomenon. Do some reading on epigenetics and get back to me because you’re woefully misinformed.

    Answer each one of my comments and without this lateral/coward args.

  408. @Santoculto

    “You’re easily dazzled with this type of academic verborragy that often obscure the clear understanding of the main ideas….”

    Explain the basics of epigenetics to me.

    “Science is exactly the opposite of MOST if not ALL garbage studies you love to quote… and NEVER or RARELLY you truly argument with your OWN WORDS, you know this is the fundamental metric way to differentiate real knowledgeables from fakers, i still hope…”

    “You didn’t quote studies for your claim. Quote studies.”

    I quote studies

    “NEVER or RARELLY you truly argue with YOUR OWN WORDS”

    I did above. You asked for sources. I provided sources. You contest yet are ignorant to what I’m talking about. You then say I don’t argue myself and only quote sources…. Do you see your shitty logic?

    “passive or active, without genes = without given behavior…”

    Need an environmental stimulus.

    “Too abstract to me. Clarify this.

    This theories already were proved or is just-so-stories too**

    Basic biology. . .”

    Im literally saying it’s wrong. Too abstract for you? Must be those low IQ Brazilian genes.

    The bodies are the vehicle. The genes are the passengers/replicators. The Neo-Darwinist holds that the vehicle is useless and only the passenger matters. Not true. The selfish gene is just a metaphor. Never been empirically proven.

    Get it now?

    “What is the ”system”**

    The physiological system.

    “Epigenetic people also love to deify genes, off or on…”

    I don’t deify genes. I’m literally saying that they’re passive and don’t do things on their own unless guided by the intelligent physiological system. I don’t know if I can put it any simpler than that.

    And no it’s not a strawman.

    And your other comment was a waste of your time to type. You didn’t address anything. Address my earlier comment.

    http://www.unz.com/jthompson/the-worlds-iq-86/#comment-2057143

    • Replies: @Santoculto
  409. @utu

    The only part that needed to be quoted from this wikipedia entry is:

    Multiple studies since 1972 have backed up the claim that, “The average proportion of genetic differences between individuals from different human populations only slightly exceeds that between unrelated individuals from a single population.

    Edwards (2003) claims, “It is not true, as Nature claimed, that ‘two random individuals from any one group are almost as different as any two random individuals from the entire world’” and Risch et al. (2002) state “Two Caucasians are more similar to each other genetically than a Caucasian and an Asian.” However Bamshad et al. (2004) used the data from Rosenberg et al. (2002) to investigate the extent of genetic differences between individuals within continental groups relative to genetic differences between individuals between continental groups. They found that though these individuals could be classified very accurately to continental clusters, there was a significant degree of genetic overlap on the individual level, to the extent that, using 377 loci, individual Europeans were about 38% of the time more genetically similar to East Asians than to other Europeans.

    Witherspoon et al. (2007) have argued that even when individuals can be reliably assigned to specific population groups, it may still be possible for two randomly chosen individuals from different populations/clusters to be more similar to each other than to a randomly chosen member of their own cluster. Witherspoon et al. conclude that “caution should be used when using geographic or genetic ancestry to make inferences about individual phenotypes”. A study of three completely genotyped individuals, white American scientists James Watson and Craig Venter, and Korean scientist Seong-Jin Kim found that the two white scientists have fewer genetic variations (single nucleotide polymorphisms or SNPs) in common than either shares with Kim.[21]

    This one was interesting too.

    Keith Hunley, Graciela Cabana, and Jeffrey Long created a revised statistical model to account for unequally divergent population lineages and local populations with differing degrees of diversity. Their 2015 paper applies this model to the Human Genome Diversity Project sample of 1,037 individuals in 52 populations.[8] They found that least diverse population examined, the Surui, “harbors nearly 60% of the total species’ diversity.” Long and Kittles had noted earlier that the Sokoto people of Africa contains virtually all of human genetic diversity.[12] Their analysis also found that non-African populations are a taxonomic subgroup of African populations, that “some African populations are equally related to other African populations and to non-African populations,” and that “outside of Africa, regional groupings of populations are nested inside one another, and many of them are not monophyletic.”[8]

    All the rest is correlation, “closer on average”, and other relative and probability measures that mean nothing when it comes to pairing two individuals and deciding the level of genetic similarity that make them members of the same genetic population. No genetic variant is necessary and sufficient to assign someone to a given race, so race is not a genetic reality. However, as Okechukwu said, it does not dismiss genetic variation between populations, whether we are talking about continents or small villages which would both be valid definitions of races as you define it.

    I know that mathematical methods were invented by white man and mathematics might be racist

    I don’t want to shatter your dreams but the Near-East and India made the most important initial contributions to mathematics.

    That said, it’s always funny to see how white losers take pride in (often fantasized) accomplishment for which they have no personal agency whatsoever but refuse any responsibility and guilt for the horrors of their ancestors, horrors they tend to be nostalgic about and would love to take pride in openly but they lack the balls to do so.

    but we have nothing better to replace it with. Tell Okechukwu to stop fantasizing about beating up white people and apply his phenomenal Nigerian mind to invent new math that does not oppress Black people.

    Or ask this guy: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/nigerian-student-ufot-ekong-solves-30-year-old-maths-equation-and-breaks-academic-record-at-japanese-10303064.html

    A sample of dog saliva can identify dog’s breed with almost 100% accuracy. Let suppose that black poodles object to this and claim that there are no breeds (clusters) because they are against breeds.

    Dog breeds are not clusters, they are the product of artificial selection and their genetic similarity is that of a consanguine family.

    You want to liquidate all races and replace them with mongrels. It is fine, but do not use the fake fact that there are no races in this argument. YOUR GOAL IS TO LIQUIDATE RACES. Say it!

    Lol! No, I don’t give a damn fuck about what people look like and where they live. That’s only a matter of concern for losers who need to get a life.

    Really? Are you speaking for yourself? How many people you have beaten up so far? None, right?

    I got into fights as a kid and late in the night, inebriated as the clubs/bars shut down, like most people. But it’s never been racist assholes since this species dwell in basements or are way too afraid of me to do anything that would hurt my feelings.

    Is it because they were not supremacist or not sufficient assholes? Believe me, majority of white people are supremacists. They believe that white race is superior. You only have to ask them some clever questions.

    It’s very funny how you talk like I didn’t know white people. You’re running on an American OS in which the black kids sit together in the cafeteria and the white man’s psyche is an impenetrable universe to them.

    I’m French, my parents are white, my family is white, most of my classmates have been white, most of my friends are white, most of my girlfriends have been white, most of my professional relationships are with white folks. And I probably have slightly fewer black acquaintances than the average Frenchman of my age.

    I can tell from my 25 years of experience in immersion among white people that they are neither superior or supremacist the slightest bit, provided that they are as well off and as well rounded as those who surround me.

    Have you noticed that some white people are exceptionally nice to you? Do you know why?

    Sure, some people are exceptionally nice to me as they are to anyone else, and others are just obnoxious. The only whites who gave me extra-preferential treatment were ladies who ended up in my bed. If you’re implying that whites would go as far as having sex with blacks to hide their supremacist feelings, that’s a bold claim you’ll need to substantiate.

    White people are extremely perfidious.

    You said it, not me. To be fair, blacks can be just as shady I guess.

    The more supremacist they are the less assholish they are among blacks. Tough luck, it won’t be easy for you to find a white supremacist asshole.

    Lol! I’d like to know where you got this from. One basic fact is that an asshole can’t hold back his assholeness too long and it will always show at some point. Anyway, never said I wanted to meet such an asshole, I surround myself with decent people, people who travel, people who are educated, people who are involved in the community, people who have strong humanist ideals. So there is a mutual self-selection effect that keeps me very far away from white supremacist scum. But if someone wants to reveal his inner supremacist in my presence, he can expect to lose a tooth or two.

    • Replies: @bomag
    , @utu
  410. @RaceRealist88

    Who need explain here is you, you never do.

    You hide yourself in this extremely complicated studies i really doubt you have patience, time and capacity to decipher because you’re trying to hide your real capacity, i mean, reasoning skills.

    Need an environmental stimulus.

    Stupidly obvious and don’t deny the extreme importance of genes-existence….

    Must be those low IQ Brazilian genes.

    Maybe the brazilian genes for cleverness, also extremely useful to detect another cleverness, instead real analytical intelligence-job….

    Maybe i blame my AFRICAN/BRAZILIAN genes, ;)

    I think you’re RACIST now because you know, Brazil is considerably african in its national genome, ;)

    The bodies are the vehicle. The genes are the passengers/replicators.
    The Neo-Darwinist holds that the vehicle is useless and only the passenger matters.
    Not true.
    The selfish gene is just a metaphor. Never been empirically proven.

    GOD, give me resilience!!!1

    It’s not the genes which fabricate and sustain the body itself*

    You have a EXTREMELY/PURELY ABSTRACT interpretation of this so-called-studies without any visible or identifiable drope of concrete examples, interpretation…

    You’re talking about PHYSIOLOGY, supposed to be a more LITERAL approach, but based on extreme ABSTRACT interpretations.

    • Replies: @RaceRealist88
  411. @Santoculto

    “Who need explain here is you, you never do.

    You hide yourself in this extremely complicated studies i really doubt you have patience, time and capacity to decipher because you’re trying to hide your real capacity, i mean, reasoning skills.”

    Useless. Why did you waste your time writing this? I make an assertion. You say I don’t quote studies for my assertion when I normally do. I quote studies to back my assertion. You then say I don’t argue myself and only quote studies. Do you see the painfully obvious contraction in your statements? Do you even logic?

    “Stupidly obvious and don’t deny the extreme importance of genes-existence….”

    See Utu’s comment above on the ever changing definition of the gene.

    “You have a EXTREMELY/PURELY ABSTRACT interpretation of this so-called-studies without any visible or identifiable drope of concrete examples, interpretation…”

    So-called studies? Any evidence they’re not studies? You don’t understand this so why talk about it? I explained Dawkins’ analogy as simply as possible and you still don’t grasp it?

    “You’re talking about PHYSIOLOGY, supposed to be a more LITERAL approach, but based on extreme ABSTRACT interpretations.”

    Something else you speak about while ignorant.

    Genes aren’t causes on their own. Genes don’t do anything until directed by the intelligent physiological system. What is hard to grasp about that concept? Do you understand it? I’m explaining it as simply as possible.

    Do you understand Dawkins metaphor?

    Read up on epigenetics and get back to me. It sucks having a conversation with such an ignorant person.

    • Replies: @Santoculto
  412. Epigenetic people overlook mutations… mutations are ”heritable” too buddies!!

    • Replies: @Santoculto
    , @RaceRealist88
  413. res says:
    @Okechukwu

    Race isn’t so much unreal as it is arbitrary, making it meaningless. No one says that there aren’t genetic differences between different populations of humans. There are even genetic differences between you and your immediate family members. In fact if you want to parse differences in the minutia, theoretically you and your brother are members of different races.

    You might want to spend some time learning about the Continuum Fallacy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuum_fallacy

    Does the color red exist? What about yellow and orange? Where are their boundaries in terms of frequency?

    Whether race is real or not is absolutely immaterial to me.

    If that is the case why spend so much time arguing about it?

    And it was only in the 20th century that a whole host of European ethnicities were brought under the “white” umbrella.

    Really. Then how do you explain the “free white person” language in the Naturalization Act of 1790? http://www.indiana.edu/~kdhist/H105-documents-web/week08/naturalization1790.html

    • Agree: RaceRealist88, utu
    • Replies: @utu
    , @Afrosapiens
    , @Okechukwu
  414. @RaceRealist88

    Any evidence that they are empirically proven or just factually correct*

    You even confuse just-so-studies that confirm your own strong biases with proved theories/hypothesis.

    Genes aren’t causes on their own. Genes don’t do anything until directed by the intelligent physiological system. What is hard to grasp about that concept? Do you understand it? I’m explaining it as simply as possible.

    forth time you repeat your new favorite mantra…

    So you don’t know what is abstract and concrete*

    This excessively look on super-tiny details obscure something most SANE people are capable to do with their own at naked eyes.

    [Professional] Science, supposedly, must be always popularized and in huge connection with the community, working hard to be precise, concise and clean.

    Most mothers and fathers can conclude: ”my sons [often] have different personalities even when i gave us a equal ‘education’ ”.

    They can debate if they believe ”nature” or ”nurture” was the most important but it’s just reality-checked.

    It’s even creates a mentality of enslaved/ super-dependence.

    ”Environment always dictate my behavior, i no have any freedom or even control over it”

    Do you understand Dawkins metaphor?

    Yes but just repeat a sentence don’t mean you grasp the meaning, it’s just a sentence-repetition, isn’t*

    Maybe because ”genes” are the bricks which build the body*

    It sucks having a conversation with such an ignorant person.

    Even there are people who are completely ”misguided” but still they know the pseudo-science or pseudo-philosophy they are expert… you are below this level because you even don’t understand the pseudo-sciences you fall in love.

  415. @Santoculto

    ”overlook”, sorry, ”look overly”

  416. @Santoculto

    Where did I claim that mutations weren’t heritable? Epigenetic transmission is heritable too, but you know nothing about that.

    • Replies: @Santoculto
  417. @Santoculto

    “Any evidence that they are empirically proven or just factually correct*”

    Not playing this game. You ask for evidence. I quoted sources. “You never talk yourself always copy paste”. Make up your damn mind. I explained it numerous times. I pointed you to resources so you could learn it on your own.

    “forth time you repeat your new favorite mantra…”

    Fourth time you talk disregard my statement with absolutely nothing.

    “They can debate if they believe ”nature” or ”nurture” was the most important but it’s just reality-checked.”

    Epigenetics makes natural/nurture irrelevant. There are more forms of transmission than just DNA transmission. Read up on DNA methylation and histone modification and get back to me. You’re clueless, calling something pseudoscience because you don’t understand it. You’re the archetype of a dishonest ‘debater’ (you don’t debate you just ramble on and on and keep asking for sources and playing games showing no understanding of things even after I’ve explained it multiple times).

    “Yes but just repeat a sentence don’t mean you grasp the meaning, it’s just a sentence-repetition, isn’t*

    Maybe because ”genes” are the bricks which build the body*”

    … This is incredible. I hope everyone sees the dishonesty that Santoculto is showing right now.

    The unavoidable answer is that the “machine” existed before the genes as a self-assembled entity; the genes (whether directly as DNA, or via RNA) came later.

    https://thepsychologist.bps.org.uk/so-what-gene

    Don’t ask me to put it anymore simply. That’s as simple as it gets.

    “Even there are people who are completely ”misguided” but still they know the pseudo-science or pseudo-philosophy they are expert… you are below this level because you even don’t understand the pseudo-sciences you fall in love.”

    Again. You’re calling something pseudoscience and you don’t understand it. You claim I don’t understand the” pseudoscience I fall in love with” yet I’ve shown I do. You only make baseless assertions. No arguments. You shift goal posts. Ask for sources and quotes, I give sources and quotes and you say to say it myself. I say it myself and you’re just so ignorant to human biology you don’t understand what I’m saying.

    I’ve explained these things as simply as possible and you’ve yet to grasp it. You’re playing dumb because, well, you are dumb. You’re literally clueless so save yourself more embarrassment and just concede this argument.

  418. @Santoculto

    I hate to say this, but you’re acting like a creationist. You don’t believe something because you’re literally ignorant and clueless to this literature. That’s creationist tactics. Don’t believe something because it’s kinds complex and goes against long-held beliefs. You should work on your ‘argumentation’ because it’s laughable.

    • Replies: @Santoculto
  419. @RaceRealist88

    So ”explain” me…

    ”GENES [unimportant passive dudes] are OFF”

    Do you really know what conjecture mean**

    You rarely explain something here, you always conclude mosthings.

    http://avozdaserra.com.br/colunas/saude-mental-e-voce/epigenetica-e-comportamento-humano

    I find this very summarized explanation for epigenetics… seems a post-modern lamarckism to me. It’s saying for example: ”mother mental state can altere its child in the womb”. It was already proved or it’s just conjectural**

    You simply don’t care about the phenomenon ”genetic confounding”.

    Explain to me the correlation: higher IQ and ”like to play video games”.

  420. @Santoculto

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5384203/

    Transgenerational transmission of a stress-coping phenotype programmed by early-life stress in the Japanese quail

    We show that pre-natal stress experienced by the mother did not simply affect offspring phenotype but resulted in the inheritance of the same stress-coping traits in the offspring across all phenotypic levels that we investigated, shaping neuroendocrine, physiological and behavioural traits. This may serve mothers to better prepare their offspring to cope with later environments where the same stressors are experienced.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4677138/

    Intergenerational Transmission of Stress in Humans

    Here, we review clinical observations in offspring, noting that offspring of stress- or trauma-exposed parents may be at greater risk for physical, behavioral, and cognitive problems, as well as psychopathology. Furthermore, we review findings concerning offspring biological correlates of parental stress, in particular, offspring neuroendocrine, epigenetic, and neuroanatomical changes, in an attempt to determine the extent of parental stress effects. Although understanding the etiology of effects in offspring is currently impeded by methodological constraints, and limitations in our knowledge, we summarize current information and conclude by presenting hypotheses that have been prompted by recent studies in the field.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26417717

    Multigenerational epigenetic inheritance in humans: DNA methylation changes associated with maternal exposure to lead can be transmitted to the grandchildren.

    Our results suggest that Pb exposure during pregnancy affects the DNA methylation status of the fetal germ cells, which leads to altered DNA methylation in grandchildren’s neonatal dried blood spots. This is the first demonstration that an environmental exposure in pregnant mothers can have an epigenetic effect on the DNA methylation pattern in the grandchildren. [Pb exposure = blood lead exposure during pregnancy.]

    https://academic.oup.com/icb/article/54/1/31/2797821/Epigenetics-and-Evolution

    Epigenetics and Evolution

    For instance, numerous single-nucleotide polymorphisms that affect DNA-methylation patterns have been discovered in human populations. These studies begin to unveil a dynamic interplay between genomic and epigenomic factors across long and short evolutionary timescales.

    http://europepmc.org/articles/PMC3555228

    Epigenetics of early-life lead exposure and effects on brain development

    Mounting evidence suggests that environmental factors can impact the developing brain through these epigenetic mechanisms and this report reviews and examines the epigenetic effects of one of the most common neurotoxic pollutants of our environment, which is believed to have no safe level of exposure during human development: lead.

    Keep living in ignorance.

    • Replies: @Santoculto
  421. @Santoculto

    “I find this very summarized explanation for epigenetics… seems a post-modern lamarckism to me. It’s saying for example: ”mother mental state can altere its child in the womb”. It was already proved or it’s just conjectural**

    I speak English. Yes it’s proved. Read the sources I provided in my previous comment.

    “You simply don’t care about the phenomenon ”genetic confounding”.”

    When heritability estimates are made, epigenetic Confounding is ignored. Some heritability may be epigenetic heritability, but it shows up as ‘genetic’ when it’s ‘environmental’. Understand?

    “Explain to me the correlation: higher IQ and ”like to play video games”.”

    I don’t care.

    • Replies: @Santoculto
  422. @Santoculto

    And by the way, saying something is ‘post-modern Lamarckism’ is useless nd an attempt to disregard the argument and data behind transgenerational epigenetic inheritance. You know Darwin entertained some forms of Lamarckism? Of course you didn’t.

    There are non DNA forms of inheritance. Do you deny this? If so, why?

    • Replies: @Afrosapiens
    , @Santoculto
  423. bomag says:
    @Afrosapiens

    No genetic variant is necessary and sufficient to assign someone to a given race, so race is not a genetic reality.

    Until we are able to isolate the variants.

    I’m French, my parents are white, my family is white…

    Sounds like you are bragging. If true, it makes your discussion here sound like status posturing based on European magnanimity. Doesn’t look like an especially beneficial strategy for what was and could be on this planet.

    • Replies: @Afrosapiens
    , @res
  424. @RaceRealist88

    Buddy, don’t waste your time on the intellectually disabled homosexual Brazilian kid.

    • Replies: @Santoculto
  425. utu says:
    @res

    Very good. I did not know it had the name: continuum fallacy.

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
  426. @bomag

    Until we are able to isolate the variants.

    No, we don’t isolate variants. Geographic differences in allele frequency just increase the probability that someone has ancestry from a given area. But there is no genetic basis for calling these area “races”, nor is there any of these variants that cause race.

    Genetic analysis will show that I’m mainly from Afro-Eurasia instead of the New World, then From Africa instead of Eurasia, then West African instead of Northern, Eastern or Southern Africa, then Haitian instead of actually West African, so I won’t have the typical genetic make up of any ethnic group in West Africa since Haitians are a mix of various West African cultures with Eurasian and Native admixture in addition. None of the geographic categories I mentioned are races. They’re geographic labels.

    Sounds like you are bragging.

    How so? I’m completely indifferent about this, I’ve been adopted in France so it’s normal that my relatives are overwhelmingly white, or more accurately French because French people are not exactly like white Americans in terms of social behaviors and views.

    • Replies: @bomag
  427. @res

    You might want to spend some time learning about the Continuum Fallacy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuum_fallacy

    Does the color red exist? What about yellow and orange? Where are their boundaries in terms of frequency?

    No, that’s not relevant to the topic. What matters is that although some gene variants correlate with self-identified race, no gene variant alone does cause race. And in addition to that, race isn’t the main source of genetic variation among humans.

    Really. Then how do you explain the “free white person” language in the Naturalization Act of 1790?

    That was when “white” mostly meant British/Irish/German/Dutch. It became much more complicated when Jews, Slavs, Greeks and Italians arrived en masse. And it’s still complicated with pale Hispanics, Middle Easterners or some South Asians.

  428. res says:
    @bomag

    No genetic variant is necessary and sufficient to assign someone to a given race, so race is not a genetic reality.

    Until we are able to isolate the variants.

    It is necessary to separate the two parts of that assertion. “No genetic variant is necessary and sufficient to assign someone to a given race” is true. It is also an incredibly weak statement. Race is clearly polygenic. No single variant is definitive, though it is impressive how predictive a small number of SNPs can be: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3694299/

    The problem is “so race is not a genetic reality” does not follow. The PCA results speak for themselves: http://infoproc.blogspot.com/2008/01/no-scientific-basis-for-race.html
    Of course Continuum Fallacy type issues (no firm boundaries) are present and there is plenty of room for rare special cases.

    For example, it is theoretically possible to have people with the same pairs of two widely different (in similar ways) grandparents be just as widely different. Statistics means that is exceedingly rare and various forms of blended commonality are more likely.

    • Replies: @Afrosapiens
    , @Afrosapiens
  429. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @utu

    The term “continuum fallacy” is indeed useful.

    However, for African and other immigrants to the West, the denial of the reality of race is due not to a fallacy but to the realization that, as interlopers, they are liable to be booted out, especially when members of their group make themselves as obnoxious as Okeychokey and Afrosap have done here.

    • Replies: @Okechukwu
    , @utu
  430. @res

    None of the studies is actually about race.

    The first one predicts skin and eye color based on 8 snps that are associated with melanin production. The point is not to find ancestry and genetic relatedness based on those SNPs. Moreover, skin and eye color are barely enough to define races in the traditional way. Brown-eyed and blue-eyed are not seen as different races, while in the US, very light brown blacks self-identify as black as much as the darkest skinned ones.

    The second study is about population clusters within Europe.

    European Americans are often treated as a homogeneous group, but in fact form a structured population due to historical immigration of diverse source populations. Discerning the ancestry of European Americans genotyped in association studies is important in order to prevent false-positive or false-negative associations due to population stratification and to identify genetic variants whose contribution to disease risk differs across European ancestries. Here, we investigate empirical patterns of population structure in European Americans, analyzing 4,198 samples from four genome-wide association studies to show that components roughly corresponding to northwest European, southeast European, and Ashkenazi Jewish ancestry are the main sources of European American population structure. Building on this insight, we constructed a panel of 300 validated markers that are highly informative for distinguishing these ancestries. We demonstrate that this panel of markers can be used to correct for stratification in association studies that do not generate dense genotype data.

    So basically, this abstract is just saying “contrary to common perceptions, European Americans are not a single race, they are three different races: Northwestern, South-Eastern, Ashkenazi.

    For example, it is theoretically possible to have people with the same pairs of two widely different (in similar ways) grandparents be just as widely different. Statistics means that is exceedingly rare and various forms of blended commonality are more likely.

    Rephrase it please.

    • Replies: @res
  431. @res

    Also, another way in which the continuum fallacy doesn’t apply to population genetics is that there aren’t ends to genetic variation. You can’t tell this individual/population is genetically the blackest on earth, this one is the whitest.

    In contrast, there are three ends to the color continuum: cyan, magenta and yellow. And all the colors in between are varied mixtures of the three.

    • Replies: @res
    , @Santoculto
  432. Okechukwu says:
    @res

    You might want to spend some time learning about the Continuum Fallacy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuum_fallacy

    Biology dictates that you can either have, at minimum, hundreds of races and potentially millions of races. Or you can have just one race. There is no middle ground. I understand that this discombobulates your biological race concept, central to which is the notion that there are a few hard, immutable human population types with genetically predetermined attributes. It’s a cute theory, but one that withers before the science.

    You live in a country with a one drop rule and you’re arguing for biological races? Barack Obama is black in the United States. But what would his actual genotype tell us? The one drop rule is Exhibit A that goes to show that race is a social rather than a biological reality.

    If that is the case why spend so much time arguing about it?

    I don’t. You just made that up.

    Really. Then how do you explain the “free white person” language in the Naturalization Act of 1790? http://www.indiana.edu/~kdhist/H105-documents-web/week08/naturalization1790.html

    But who was white back then? Remember, there were no Italian, Polish, Greek, Russian, or Spanish signers of the Deceleration of Independence. Whiteness itself was invented in order to justify the transatlantic slave trade. You do realize that there were free black land owners in early 17th century America, right? They had the full compliment of rights afforded to every other resident. They even owned white indentured servants. Slavery would later usher in the racialization of society and the stigmatization of black people. But even after the invention of white people, club membership was decidedly exclusive. Most whites didn’t gain entry until the 20th century.

    On Columbus Day, let’s remember that Italians weren’t always white in America

    There were two races in America then: black and white. Italians were thrust into a country where being one and not the other meant the difference between finding economic success, safety and acceptance.

    Like the Irish, another immigrant group that arrived in the United States during this time, Italians were not perceived as white. They were, as historians James Barrett and David Roediger call them, “inbetween people.” But once Italians gained an awareness of what whiteness could bring them, they embraced it, the authors say.

    https://splinternews.com/on-columbus-day-let-s-remember-that-italians-weren-t-a-1793851764

    How do you become “white” in America?

    Over time, the strategy of positioning Poles as “white” against a dark-skinned “other” was successful. Poles came to consider themselves white, and more importantly, they came to be considered white by their fellow Americans, as did Italians, Greeks, Jews, Russians, and others from Southern and Eastern Europe, all of whom held an ambivalent racial status in U.S. society. Also, intermarriage between white ethnic groups led some to embrace a broader white identity.

    By the mid-20th century, the Poles had become “white”, but they were not quite white enough. They were referred to then as “ethnic whites” and put in a vulnerable position – not subject to hostile discrimination like blacks, but not able to receive the same advantages as whites of Western European ancestry either.

    https://thecorrespondent.com/5185/how-do-you-become-white-in-america/1466577856645-8260d4a7

    Working Toward Whiteness: How America’s Immigrants Became White: The Strange Journey from Ellis Island to the Suburbs

    At the vanguard of the study of race and labor in American history, David R. Roediger is the author of the now-classic The Wages of Whiteness, a study of racism in the development of a white working class in nineteenth-century America. In Working Toward Whiteness, he continues that history into the twentieth century. He recounts how American ethnic groups considered white today-including Jewish-, Italian-, and Polish-Americans-once occupied a confused racial status in their new country. They eventually became part of white America thanks to the nascent labor movement, New Deal reforms, and a rise in home-buying.

    https://www.amazon.com/dp/0465070744?_encoding=UTF8&isInIframe=0&n=283155&ref_=dp_proddesc_0&s=books&showDetailProductDesc=1#product-description_feature_div

    • Replies: @res
  433. utu says:
    @Afrosapiens

    I’m French, my parents are white, my family is white

    Legally, yes. They are your adoptive parents. This is your adoptive family. You are talking in terms of social construct that is legally binding in France. The whiteness of your parents is like OJ’s innocence. It holds on paper only. Do 23andMe on yourself and your adoptive parents and hang the results on the wall next to the adoption papers to keep reminding yourself that there is an objective reality apart from the social construct you so badly want to reify. Otherwise you are like G.B. Shaw’s barbarian “He is a barbarian, and thinks that the customs of his tribe and island are the laws of nature.” By laws of nature you are Shvartze, a member of well defined Shvartze race. And your adoptive parents are not a part of Shvartze race. No amount of semantical gymnastics will ever change it.

    The method(s) of clusters based on the genetic distance using SNPs is sound. It can reproduce geographical locations and boundaries and what is more important it can identify SNPs lists associated with external phenotypes by which people from different clusters(races) differ. In other words the method(s) validates the common concept of race (like the one obtained via the Police Lineup Method) to which you objected as being socially constructed. What really terrifies many people is what differences in hidden phenotypes will be discovered. While I am not a fan of Davide Piffer and consider he’s paper a piece of crap but there will be more work done in this field and who knows what it will bring.

    One more thing, dog breeds are good analogy for human races.

    Dog breeds are not clusters, they are the product of artificial selection and their genetic similarity is that of a consanguine family.

    No. Clusters work here. One can be technical and state that both human races and dog breeds are the result of human actions and intervention, thus artificial selection. You selecting your Moroccan Jewish girlfriend is technically definitively “manmade” unless you believe in Haitian voodoo and ghosts. And as far as consanguine family term goes, you and your adoptive parents are not part of the same consanguine family. You are not related. Thanks for reminding me of this term.

    Now the case of smart Nigerian student in Japan. It is always nice to hear of success of Africans in hard sciences because it gives some hope that the stereotype supported by performance of African-Americans in the US will be broken. In 39 years between 1973-2012 there were only 66 Ph.D degrees in physics awarded to black women and 354 to black men. This is for the population of 40 millions. How many PhD’s in physics and math in Spain or Poland, nations also of c. 40 millions? This is about 40 times lower rate for women and 60 time lower rate for men than for whites in the US and most European countries. It is not better in mathematics and other science fields (data for year 2004):

    The very large racial Ph.D. gap in the natural sciences is striking when we examine black Ph.D. awards in specific disciplines. For example, not a single African American earned a Ph.D. in astronomy or astrophysics in 2004. In all there were 165 Ph.D.s awarded in these fields. African Americans earned only 10 doctorates in mathematics. This was only 0.9 percent of all doctorates awarded in the field.

    A major weakness is that blacks earned 13, or about 1 percent, of the nearly 1,200 doctorates in physics. In computer science, blacks won 0.7 percent of all Ph.D. awards. In the atmospheric sciences, less than 1 percent of all doctorates went to blacks. In chemistry, only 2.3 percent of Ph.D.s went to blacks. In the earth sciences such as geology, oceanography, and the atmospheric sciences, blacks were 1.3 percent of all doctoral recipients, down from 2.3 percent in 2003. In the ocean and marine sciences, only one of the 190 Ph.D.s in the discipline was awarded to an African American. In 2004, 148 African Americans were awarded a Ph.D. in the biological sciences. But they were only 2.5 percent of all doctorates awarded in the discipline. Black Ph.D. awards in the biological sciences did increase by 37 percent from 2003. That year, blacks were awarded 1.9 percent of all doctorates in the biological sciences.

    Note the title of the article I have took the above quotes: Doctoral Degree Awards to African Americans Reach Another All-Time High, http://www.jbhe.com/news_views/50_black_doctoraldegrees.html The titles of articles in Soviet Pravda adhered better to the factual reality than this one. This is another example of delusional construction of reality, that you, Afrosapience and your Nigerian sidekick would like to live in. You are free to do it but do not drag us in into it, because we non-Shvartze prefer the fact based reality. This might be the chief reason why Europeans were so successful: Cut the BS and delusions.

    Let’s go back to the wunderkind Ufot Ekong from Nigeria in Japan. First of all why we have to read about him and was his accomplishment significant? What was the equation that he solved? Can it be verified? This is what Ufot Ekong says about himself:

    Regarding an equation that was unsolved for many years, Rather it is an electrical problem involving mathematics and my entire research team is not allowed to discuss details of academic research, patents and trade secrets as it regards electric vehicles. We are
    constrained by a confidentiality agreement not to discuss such projects.

    So we can’t verify what he really accomplished. I am sure that this story made many Shvartzes and many good wisher happy. But the story is fishy. Probably not a hoax or on the level of Nigerian scam but certainly blown out of proportion. Is he the only Shvartze out of over 1 billion whose story in accomplishment in science is fit to print? And you Afrosapiense, don’t you have any stories of Shvartze accomplishment in physics and mathematics in Francophone world? Sorry, I forgot, in France Shvartzes are unidentifiable. They are all French like yourself, right? And nobody can tell the difference.

    Man, you and your Nigerian sidekick are pathetic losers living in delusional world.

    • Replies: @Afrosapiens
  434. Okechukwu says:
    @CanSpeccy

    However, for African and other immigrants to the West, the denial of the reality of race is due not to a fallacy but to the realization that, as interlopers, they are liable to be booted out, especially when members of their group make themselves as obnoxious as Okeychokey and Afrosap have done here.

    Dude, we’ll ship your hairy ass back to your European village where you belong.

  435. utu says:
    @CanSpeccy

    Yes, the denial of the reality of race and engraving it in the legal statute will make it much harder to introduce same kind of Nuremberg Laws. But guess what, who fucked it up for them? The Jews and their obsession with their own racial identity. You do not need Nuremberg Laws. All you need 23andMe to round up all Shvartzes in Frances which will work even if all French went suddenly blind like in The Day of the Triffids, not just metaphorically color blind as in the current fiction they try to create for France.

    • Replies: @Okechukwu
    , @CanSpeccy
  436. bomag says:
    @Afrosapiens

    Geographic differences in allele frequency just increase the probability that someone has ancestry from a given area.

    Uhm, you mean from people that lived in the area. You are conveniently obtuse in service to your narrative.

    I’m completely indifferent about this

    !!!

    You are not particularly capable of being honest.

  437. Okechukwu says:
    @utu

    Sometimes you write well. Sometimes you write like a delusional crackpot. Most times you make a fool of yourself.

  438. res says:
    @Afrosapiens

    So basically, this abstract is just saying “contrary to common perceptions, European Americans are not a single race, they are three different races: Northwestern, South-Eastern, Ashkenazi.

    Pretty much. You might find these plots more interesting: http://infoproc.blogspot.com/2010/08/connect-dots.html
    They cover roughly the continental races with a separate graphic for Africa. Makes clear how much variation is present within Africa compared to the rest of the world excluding Africa.

    One thing that is critical when interpreting PCA plots is to consider the percent variance explained by each component. In that first figure PC1 (which is largely what separates Europe and sub-Saharan Africa) accounts for 20% of the variance! PC2 and PC3 account for 5% and 3.5% of variance respectively.

    For example, it is theoretically possible to have people with the same pairs of two widely different (in similar ways) grandparents be just as widely different. Statistics means that is exceedingly rare and various forms of blended commonality are more likely.

    Rephrase it please.

    Take this case as a thought experiment. Two pairs with one pair being a Nigerian male and Irish female and the other pair with the sexes reversed. Those pairs each have children and those children intermarry. It is possible that a grandchild will appear (or be, to all intents and purposes) completely Irish or Nigerian. Of course that is highly unlikely with the more likely outcomes being a blend of the phenotypes.

    • Replies: @Afrosapiens
  439. Factorize says:

    People please.
    Let us be civilized.

    The future has now arrived.
    Let us discuss what is not what was.

    The below technology will cause pervasive disruption of human society.

    http://infoproc.blogspot.ca/2017/11/the-future-is-here-genomic-prediction.html

  440. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @utu

    Beside the absurdity of combining anti-white racism with the denial of the reality of race, these Afro interlopers appears lacking in comprehension of the position of those among whom they have apparently settled. This raises the possibility that they lack what is known to specialists in the field of animal psychology as a “theory of mind”. They seem, in other words, to be unable to see the world from any point of view but their own.

    Such a deficiency would be clear evidence of primitivism, and a basis not only for the enlightened racism of all sensible people concerned with the survival of their own people (whatever may be the merits or deficiencies of their own people), but of the view that there are real racial differences in mentality, a conclusion leading unavoidably to the notion of a racial hierarchy.

    • Replies: @utu
    , @Afrosapiens
  441. res says:
    @Afrosapiens

    Also, another way in which the continuum fallacy doesn’t apply to population genetics is that there aren’t ends to genetic variation. You can’t tell this individual/population is genetically the blackest on earth, this one is the whitest.

    The easy way to look at this is as clusters on the PCA plots. Let’s include some directly for discussion:

    There are clearly meaningful clusters. The continuum fallacy comes in when trying to draw the fine boundaries.

    One interesting aspect is the Europe/Africa variation mostly occurs along a single dimension–PC1.

    In contrast, there are three ends to the color continuum: cyan, magenta and yellow. And all the colors in between are varied mixtures of the three.

    Or you can just see the color spectrum as linear defined by frequency: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color#Spectral_colors
    There are benefits to both ways of looking at it. I think it is accurate to say that the linear representation is more the physical reality while the three color version is a result of human perception (three types of cone cells): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_vision#Cone_cells_in_the_human_eye

    Many animals have four types of cone cells: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrachromacy
    Including some humans! http://discovermagazine.com/2012/jul-aug/06-humans-with-super-human-vision
    An interesting wrinkle in terms of genetic engineering possibilities.

    • Replies: @mikemikev
  442. res says:
    @Okechukwu

    this discombobulates your biological race concept, central to which is the notion that there are a few hard, immutable human population types with genetically predetermined attributes.

    Nice strawman.

    You live in a country with a one drop rule and you’re arguing for biological races? Barack Obama is black in the United States. But what would his actual genotype tell us? The one drop rule is Exhibit A that goes to show that race is a social rather than a biological reality.

    I have argued elsewhere that race is both a biological and social construct. The one drop rule is a great example of the social construct aspect. And Barack Obama makes an interesting case study. I wonder where he would appear in those PCA plots. Probably right on the line between Europeans and Africans where most African Americans line up. But about halfway rather than the average of around 70% African.

    And thanks for demonstrating the false dilemma fallacy: https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/94/False-Dilemma
    This thread is turning into a clinic on fallacious reasoning.

    • Replies: @RaceRealist88
    , @Okechukwu
  443. utu says:
    @CanSpeccy

    that they lack …“theory of mind”. They seem, in other words, to be unable to see the world from any point of view but their own.

    You hit the nail on the head with this. I knew there was something off when reading or engaging in comments with A and O here. In one comment above I was trying to alert A that he should not be fooled by white people demeanor that they do not necessarily like him when they are friendly and nice to him. On occasions they were able to make cogent arguments and at the same time they kept returning to making the same untenable points over and over again. Where does the lack of discernment come from? I got eventually exasperated and in my last comment to A I called A and his sidekick delusional losers. Because only by delusion I could explain their repetition of the old worn arguments. They also seem to not get that while you and I are not on the same side in the IQ debate with the IQists it does not imply we are on their side. So O in his last comment to me seems to be confused. Perhaps it should be taken into account that they are rather young people who imbibed the Kool-Aid served to them by the liberal left media. But they might be showing a sign of awakening in their own peculiar way because both of them expressed desire to beat us up if they could get us. So they are beginning to see that the reality is not as it was promised to them by the peddler of the Kool-Aid and begin to descend to the typical level of the ghetto youth who has much less illusions they they do. The question is why are they here? Do they believe that their arguments are so devastating that they will have an impact. If so this would be another sign of delusional thinking. Do you really think that A might be a sock puppet? The legend of his origins, France… is all BS?

  444. @res

    “Nice strawman.”

    Agreed. It is a man of straw. I have a philosophy book by Michael Hardimon, leftist philosopher. He derides the racialist concept (with a strawman in my opinion), but doesn’t discredit race fully. Here is a paper by him (I’ll get quotes from his book tonight. .. yes I buy a ton of books for reference).

    My account of the ontology of race takes the form of an exposition of four distinct race concepts:
    (i) the ordinary concept of race, (ii) the racialist concept of race, (iii) the populationist race concept, and (iv) the concept of socialrace. The race concept I am calling racialist is the familiar, historically influential, hierarchical and “essentialist” race concept, often (incorrectly) identified as the race concept that has been the primary focus of critical attention for some time now. This pernicious notion purports to divide human individuals into sharply defined, hierarchically arranged groups which differ in humanly important characteristics such as intelligence, morality, and culture on the basis of skin color, nose shape, head form and the like. It is the concept of race that has been traditionally deployed to provide an ideological justification for racial discrimination, inequality, and oppression. It is the race concept whose use ought to be eliminated. I shall propose and defend a concept I shall call the populationist race concept as a candidate non-racialist scientific concept of race that is continuous in important respects with the logical core of ordinary concept of race but discontinuous with the specifically racialist elements of the racialist concept of race, a non-racialist scientific concept of race. The race concept I express using the term ‘socialrace’ is a specifically social concept of race, distinct from the three proceeding race concepts and different from them in kind. It exemplifies the kind of race concept required to grasp the social phenomenon of race.

    The PRC specifies that

    A “race” is a subdivision of Homo sapiens — a group of populations that exhibits a visibly distinctive statistical pattern of genetically transmitted phenotypic characters and belong to a biological lineage initiated by a geographically separated and reproductively isolated founding population.

    http://www.mit.edu/~shaslang/rprg/HardimonOOR.pdf

    I think his other race concepts are very very well thought out, and if I had to choose a non-racialist race concept, I’d choose the populationist concept.

    Thoughts?

  445. @utu

    Do you really think that A might be a sock puppet? The legend of his origins, France… is all BS?

    Of course. That much has been obvious since A&O’s third posts. I’m not sure who Okey is; he’s being careful about stylistic giveaways. However, A is a local denizen.

  446. Okechukwu says:
    @utu

    Haha, I missed this neurotic outpouring earlier:

    But when Okechukwu wakes up in the morning and goes to shave the first thing he sees is his black African face. No mimicry is possible. He can’t lose his black identity because he is reminded of the fact that he is not white not by the actions of whites but by his face in the mirror every morning. It really comes down to the optics.

    Yeah, the same black African face, physique and personality that white girls/women have been chasing since childhood. I certainly didn’t scare them off. On the contrary, I often had to beat them off.

    The same black African face that has been variously described (by white people) as beautiful, gorgeous, fine, handsome, hunk, hot, etc.

    You should see my wife. She’s sort of like a super model scientist.

    I think you have some stark emotional issues that are never going to be addressed on this blog. You need serious psychiatric attention.

    • Replies: @utu
  447. utu says:
    @Okechukwu

    How do you expect to communicate when you are lacking basic comprehension skills? I was making a point that person like you cannot practice mimicry in society which does not share your external phenotype. Mimicry requires deception and self deception. An the latter is impossible in your case because of your face which you see every morning when you shave. I did not write about any other attributes of your face except for its complexion. And you you failed again to understand. Your response to what I wrote to CanSpeccy was that you are beautiful, handsome and that your wife is super model scientist. How do you parse reality with that poor comprehension skills? That’s why you appear to be delusional. And probably CanSpeccy is correct that you haven’t reached the point of developing the theory of mind that is critical in communication and understanding what is going on around you, what other people are thinking. I can understand that you could get angry but with that hair trigger for anger you will be fucking up all the time and everywhere and people will be tripping you once they learn of your weakness. And one day you will be taken away from your super model scientist and will have to become super model prisoner to get parole.

    • Replies: @Okechukwu
  448. Factorize says:

    Anyone notice that the company that will offer embryo selection for a wide range of conditions / traits including schizophrenia, Alzheimer’s and height will not be offering selection based on intelligence?

    It seems fitting and highly consistent that a species that has committed multiple acts of genocide within the last century alone not to mention the ongoing ecocide would not rise to the occasion and actually create a better world.

    Given the now scientifically proven dysgenic trend underway and the expected profound psychometric effects that would result one can only wonder when or if humanity will blink and allow genetic selection for intelligence. Life will become a game of chicken.

    Parents to be would be in the unfortunate position of having to decide whether the dysgenic environment had reached such a dystopian minimum that they could not with good conscience bring a child into this world. For many, we have already such a point.

    • Replies: @RaceRealist88
  449. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @FKA Max

    “British have invaded nine out of ten countries – so look out Luxembourg

    Britain has invaded all but 22 countries in the world in its long and colourful history, new research has found.”

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/9653497/British-have-invaded-nine-out-of-ten-countries-so-look-out-Luxembourg.html

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
  450. @Factorize

    “Anyone notice that the company that will offer embryo selection for a wide range of conditions / traits including schizophrenia, Alzheimer’s and height will not be offering selection based on intelligence?”

    Anyone notice them that we’ve yet to actually discover *any ‘genes for’ IQ*?

    Because they offer selection on measurable, real things, not just correlations of correlations.

    • Replies: @Factorize
  451. Okechukwu says:
    @utu

    It’s not unusual for delusional people to regard perfectly normal people as delusional. After all, they’re delusional. Try as you may, you’re not going to get me to cop to an alienation I don’t feel. I am not bitter. I am not angry. I am not depressed over my medium brown skin tone. In fact I love it, as do others who gaze upon it admiringly. I’m not exactly literally black. I’m not even dark brown. But I do sometimes envy people who are practically the color black. Because it’s beautiful.

    Her, for example:

    I understand everything perfectly. I could do a lengthy psychoanalysis of you based on the writings of yours I’ve been exposed to. You have a tendency to engage in what is known in psychological parlance as transference. You are redirecting onto me the angst and unease you feel over what you perceive as a changing world. You want me to own it from a black perspective. You are chagrined that I won’t and my apathy makes you increasingly frustrated. You want me to feel besieged, beleaguered and humiliated, but I don’t. You want me to accept the proposition that the white man hates me and wants to destroy me, but I don’t. You’ve gone as far as to claim that I want white people destroyed and white countries overrun and ruined. But of course I have no such desires. The sad part is you actually want me to feel that way and it disappoints you that I don’t.

  452. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @utu

    Do you really think that A might be a sock puppet? The legend of his origins, France… is all BS?

    I have no definite feeling about that. There seem to be several possibilities. JJS is confident that sock puppetry and deception are involved but he doesn’t spell out his reasons in sufficient detail to be compelling.

    What one knows is that under Obama, anti-white racism was encouraged both by the President himself, by the Antifa crowd, funded apparently by Soros, and backed by the gutless wimps running America’s institutions of so-called higher education from Berkeley, to Evergreen State to the Ivy leagues. So our Afro interlocutors may simply be caught up with the idea that its open season on Whitey, and thus are engaging in some verbal thuggery for kicks.

    Alternatively, they may indeed be serving a propaganda function, either independently or in the service of others, with the aim of undermining the confidence of weak-witted Whiteys and inciting the colored lynch mob to even greater verbal and physical violence. If that be their role, they could well be sock puppets deployed in the interests of the NWO, which requires the destruction of the sovereign, white (originally), democratic, nations.

    • Replies: @RaceRealist88
  453. Factorize says:
    @RaceRealist88

    RaceRealist88, the science has been congealing over the last several months.

    “Gene-based analyses identified an additional 30 genes (MAGMA P < 2.73 × 10-6), of which all but one had not been implicated previously."

    PMID: 28530673

    The recent height GWAS found 10K SNPs for Educational Attainiment that explained 0.3 of the variance. Using these SNPs as a basis of embryo selection would likely have a large effect on IQ.

    It might not be entirely unreasonable to go with the correlated SNPs that have been found. Sources suggested that these SNPs would be enriched for causal variants and probably would lead to increased intelligence if selected for. This is the best information that we have to go on now. It will be interesting to see over the next while how effective such a selection process would be to change phenotype.

    It is also counter-productive in many illnesses not to consider psychometric co-factors. It is widely understood that in illnesses such as schizophrenia, cognitive deficits play a significant role in the illness. Intelligence has a pervasive effect on behavior. An unintended of selecting against the underlying neuro-psychiatric condition is that we might intensify the problem of low ability.

  454. res says:

    The thing is they are specifically avoiding the moral issue of selecting for intelligence. This is the key quote:

    “I fully predict it will be possible,” says Hsu of selecting embryos with higher IQ scores. “But we’ve said that we as a company are not going to do it. It’s a difficult issue, like nuclear weapons or gene editing. There will be some future debate over whether this should be legal, or made illegal. Countries will have referendums on it.”

    I wonder how this will work out if a competitor (say in China, it is not that hard to send genetic data over the internet) does offer an IQ selection service.

    P.S. Do you not think it will be possible to do meaningful selection for IQ once the study sample sizes (and IQ measurement quality) are large enough? This will be a testable proposition in the not too distant future. Do you think their approach of selecting for height will work?

  455. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @Anonymous

    Britain has invaded all but 22 countries in the world in its long and colourful history, new research has found.”

    Dammit, we never got Outer Mongolia, or the Central African Republic.

    It is, of course, this history of near global control that inspired the more than 100-year-old plan for global governance, brushed off by the US of indispensable A and reasserted under the title of the New World Order, by George H. W. Bush in 1992, following the collapse of the Soviet Union.

    In today’s world, however, the plan is simply a lunatic nightmare, requiring not only the destruction of the sovereign, democratic, European nation states through the destruction of their indigenous peoples (by suppressed reproduction and mass replacement immigration to create a globalist electorate), but also the subordination of China, Russia, India, and a few other hugely populous, highly industrious, and technologically advanced nations but an obviously declining, and disgustingly decadent US and its enfeebled backers in Europe.

    It’s time for the European nations to send the Afrosapiens’s and Ocheupchuks’s and all those philoprogenitive Moslems back to their own homelands, while restoring Western competitiveness in education and manufacturing and working to establish a new, stable, Westphalian system of independent nation states.

  456. @CanSpeccy

    … I correspond with Afro off Unz. He’s not a sock.

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
  457. @res

    “Do you think their approach of selecting for height will work?”

    Like using CRISPR to edit height genes?

    • Replies: @res
  458. Factorize says:
    @res

    res, I think that this is a line in the sand type moment.

    If nations think that they can deny fundamental human rights and put all of humanity at risk of genocides and other atrocities because they know best, then they probably should think carefully about their position. As soon as one other nation opens the door to this technology, it would be game over.

    Either you believe in freedom and democracy or you don’t. If you don’t fine, watch all the wealth of your economy immediately be drained out and your citizens flee as they seek a better life for themselves and their children. The last undeniable freedom is the freedom to vote with your feet (or perhaps with your passport),

    By this time it should be very clear to everyone on this thread that we are approaching a truly big jump in human intellectual potential. The differences are not going to be over a few IQ points. The differences will not be easily ignored. If there is even a meager chance that we can break through all the mushy PC mind syrup, then we should do it now. Otherwise, all that will be left of Western society are empty skyscrappers and empty freeways.

  459. Factorize says:
    @res

    res, the hundreds of SNPs that have already been correlated with IQ already give us an opportunity to meaningfully change IQ.

    In the study with 246 SNPs, the numbers I came up with indicated that the typical person might gain 1 IQ point from all of these variants, though the optimized genotype would be much much greater. Selection would not give you an optimized genotype, though even starting with selection we already have a fair amount of enhancement already on the table.

  460. res says:
    @RaceRealist88

    Like using CRISPR to edit height genes?

    No! Like using PGD (pre-implantation genetic diagnosis) to choose between a number of embryos (say 10) and implant the “best.”

    Recent Infoproc post on China and PGD: http://infoproc.blogspot.com/2017/08/embryo-selection-in-china-nature.html

    Wikipedia on PGD: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preimplantation_genetic_diagnosis

    • Replies: @Factorize
  461. Factorize says:
    @res

    res, selection only gives you 2^23 = 8,388,608 configurations of chromosomes from each parent without recombination. You would need to select 23 chromosome that averaged over many traits height, schizophrenia and Alzheimer risk, etc, seemed optimal. This could wind up being a tricky choice for parents. It might not be obvious which of many choices would be the best.

    I am not sure if it is truly possible to avoid the moral implications of not selecting for IQ by simply not selecting for IQ. We might be soon heading into a world where those who the state said could not be genetically enhanced for intelligence could argue that whatever deviant behavior they might exhibit was merely a result of a defective genetic program that was allowed to exist by passively accepting a random genetic process to occur. There is a certain logic in such an argument.

    Is this not highly analogous to parents to be going to a casino and rolling dice to determine the genotype of their children and then having this genotype CRISPRed? Most would consider such
    a method of reproduction insane and likely a serious violation of the human rights of their children to be. However, that is largely how it is done today. The fact that technology exists that allows us to
    rationally choose a future for our children would seem to place a strong moral obligation on parents
    to demand such a technology.

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
  462. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @RaceRealist88

    … I correspond with Afro off Unz. He’s not a sock.

    That appears to be a non sequitur — not that I assert that Afro is a sock puppet. Merely that his is an identity that argues as one would expect a New World Order Sock puppet to argue. (In fact, I don’t see how one can establish the reality of the identity of anyone here without face-to-face contact. Why, after all, should I consider you to be any more “real” than Afro? Were I to correspond with you “off Unz” it would surely prove nothing.)

    • Replies: @RaceRealist88
  463. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @Factorize

    Why not focus on the Flynn effect, before worrying about genetic manipulation to increase IQ. It would surely be possible to get another ten or 20 points out of the average American by means of a decent education.

  464. mikemikev says:
    @res

    Those plots aren’t so great. They dump too much data creating a blob. Obviously if you keep drawing points you’ll get a blob, and will miss the actual density pattern. Something like this shows the actual pattern much better. http://www.scs.illinois.edu/~mcdonald/PCA84pops.html

    • Replies: @res
  465. @CanSpeccy

    Are we all AI just talking to ourselves? Technology has gone too far.

    • LOL: Afrosapiens
  466. res says:
    @mikemikev

    Thanks. The smaller dots, rotation to show 3D, and more population groups are nice enhancements. Do you have a source for that data or a version of the plot showing the PC axes and their respective percent variance? You really can not interpret the plots well without the axes information. It makes a major difference whether a PC explains 20% or 3.5% of variance as in the first plot I included. The 20% is rather shocking for a single variable given how many SNPs there are.

    Given the larger number of population groups there may be more need to look at the other PCs (I am guessing that has reduced the explanatory value of PC1). For example, to differentiate the within Europe, Asia, and sub-Saharan Africa subpopulations. Assessing that need is another use for more detailed PC variance explained information. Scree plots (and cumulative scree plots) are useful for assessing how many PCs to use: https://www.analyticsvidhya.com/blog/2016/03/practical-guide-principal-component-analysis-python/

    P.S. I realize you probably already understand most of what I said above. I am trying to establish a baseline to talk about this further.

    • Replies: @utu
    , @mikemikev
  467. @utu

    Legally, yes. They are your adoptive parents. This is your adoptive family. You are talking in terms of social construct that is legally binding in France. The whiteness of your parents is like OJ’s innocence. It holds on paper only.

    France is a Rechtsstaat country, I understand that this concept is hard to fathom for an American whose President believes he can rule a country through impulsive tweeting. In the real world, what holds on paper is what constraints government action, and à la carte justice is a downward spiral no one wants to engage in.

    Do 23andMe on yourself and your adoptive parents and hang the results on the wall next to the adoption papers to keep reminding yourself that there is an objective reality apart from the social construct you so badly want to reify. Otherwise you are like G.B. Shaw’s barbarian “He is a barbarian, and thinks that the customs of his tribe and island are the laws of nature.” By laws of nature you are Shvartze, a member of well defined Shvartze race. And your adoptive parents are not a part of Shvartze race. No amount of semantical gymnastics will ever change it.

    And? It’s always been clear to me and my parents that we are not biologically related, don’t need genetic analysis to make things clear.

    By the way: it’s Schvartze

    The method(s) of clusters based on the genetic distance using SNPs is sound. It can reproduce geographical locations and boundaries and what is more important it can identify SNPs lists associated with external phenotypes by which people from different clusters(races) differ.

    No…

    No. Clusters work here. One can be technical and state that both human races and dog breeds are the result of human actions and intervention, thus artificial selection.

    No, selective breeding is goal-directed, human mating is not.

    In 39 years between 1973-2012 there were only 66 Ph.D degrees in physics awarded to black women and 354 to black men. This is for the population of 40 millions.

    Lol! do you have a slight idea of who pursues Ph.Ds? Shiftless wealthy kids. The reality of life rather directs good students toward Professional and Master’s degrees. One has to be madly in love with maths to complete a Ph.D in this discipline when the finance sector is ready do drop huge amounts of money on fresh graduates.

    How many PhD’s in physics and math in Spain or Poland, nations also of c. 40 millions?

    Yes, how many degrees in physics and maths were awarded to Poles, Spaniards, Argentines and Ukrainians over this period? With what standards? Are they Elena Ceaucescu types of degrees or actual degrees?

    Only 27% of Poles and 35% of Spaniards aged 25-64 have completed college.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tertiary_education_attainment

    29% of Black Americans aged 25 and over have completed a bachelor’s degree and higher, another 12% have an associate’s, which makes a total tertiary attainment of 41%

    So contrary to what your rhetorical question implies there are probably more Ph.Ds or valuable professionals among Black Americans than there are among Spaniards, Poles, Argentines, Ukrainians.

    In addition to that, I must recall you that 40 million is the black population now, and this population has grown much faster than Spain’s or Poland’s, so Blacks have been on average less numerous each year between 1973 and 2012.

    The titles of articles in Soviet Pravda adhered better to the factual reality than this one. This is another example of delusional construction of reality, that you, Afrosapience and your Nigerian sidekick would like to live in.

    It is factually true, it would even be factually true if the number of doctoral degrees awarded to blacks had increased by 0.000001% since the starting point.

    What was the equation that he solved? Can it be verified? This is what Ufot Ekong says about himself:

    So we can’t verify what he really accomplished.

    It hasn’t been contested by anyone, the same facebook page you quoted says he won 6 awards besides. You’re free to assume these were basketball or rapping awards but, there is no doubt that this equation that he solved hasn’t be solved by you or anyone else.

    Other than him, I think those kids are doing pretty well

    Is he the only Shvartze out of over 1 billion whose story in accomplishment in science is fit to print?

    There is actually a journal of the Nigerian mathematical society.

    http://nigerianmathematicalsociety.org

    don’t you have any stories of Shvartze accomplishment in physics and mathematics in Francophone world?

    Yeah, there is this Senegalese guy in 2013 Nobel Laureate James E. Rothman’s team.

    http://www.seneweb.com/news/Technologie/un-physicien-senegalais-dans-l-rsquo-equipe-de-recherche-du-nobel-de-medecine-2013_n_108105.html

    This Congolese guy is a Next Einstein Forum laureate.

    http://www.adiac-congo.com/content/sciences-le-congolais-jonathan-esole-laureat-du-nef-69646

    Man, you and your Nigerian sidekick are pathetic losers living in delusional world.

    It must be the butt sore that gets you this way.

    • Agree: Okechukwu
    • Replies: @Okechukwu
  468. utu says:
    @res

    to show 3D – I was surprised that just 3 PC’s were sufficient to define and delineate racial clusters. I presume that by adding 4th axis the delineation would be even sharper, though we won’t be able to visualize it in 3D.

    • Replies: @res
  469. bomag says:

    It is so dreary to be lectured on Black intellectual accomplishment, especially from a guy who earlier said:

    it’s always funny to see how the various [racial] losers take pride in (often fantasized) accomplishment for which they have no personal agency whatsoever but refuse any responsibility and guilt for the horrors of their ancestors

    • Replies: @Afrosapiens
    , @utu
  470. @CanSpeccy

    This raises the possibility that they lack what is known to specialists in the field of animal psychology as a “theory of mind”.

    As a lawyer, I find this sentence particularly hilarious.

    Such a deficiency would be clear evidence of primitivism, and a basis not only for the enlightened racism of all sensible people concerned with the survival of their own people (whatever may be the merits or deficiencies of their own people), but of the view that there are real racial differences in mentality, a conclusion leading unavoidably to the notion of a racial hierarchy.

    It’s sad to see where insecurity can lead to.

  471. @bomag

    It is so dreary to be lectured on Black intellectual accomplishment, especially from a guy who earlier said:

    I’m only correcting false assumptions, I take no credit nor pride for any fact that I brought up.

  472. Okechukwu says:
    @Afrosapiens

    Excellent takedown of this obtuse character utu. He seems to be about 150 years old, as he thinks we all live in the antebellum south or something. Either that or he’s the man that time forgot.

    Lol! do you have a slight idea of who pursues Ph.Ds? Shiftless wealthy kids. The reality of life rather directs good students toward Professional and Master’s degrees. One has to be madly in love with maths to complete a Ph.D in this discipline when the finance sector is ready do drop huge amounts of money on fresh graduates.

    Yep. Turns out most PhD’s end up having to get real jobs. Granted, by virtue of their educational accomplishments they can make six figures in completely unrelated fields. A lot of biology PhD’s become sales reps for big pharma. For those with the idealism to pursue the careers for which they studied, it’s a hard slog. They have to constantly submit research proposals in search in funding. If and when funding arrives projects are short term and pay about $40k a year (funders assume they’re doing it for the science, not the money). When the project ends, it all starts all over again.

    This Congolese guy is a Next Einstein Forum laureate.

    Allow me to do my impression of the typical IQist moron:

    “But…but…but these are just exceptions. You don’t understand averages blah blah blah.”

    • Agree: Afrosapiens
    • Replies: @Afrosapiens
  473. res says:
    @utu

    The number of PCs required varies by how many groups are included (and with what weights/numbers) and how finely you want to resolve. If you look at the first plot I included above you can see that one PC is generally enough to resolve the African-European dimension and show African-American variation along it. But the 3D version does not really do a good job of resolving intra-European and intra-Sub-Saharan-African variation given all of the groups included and the need to represent the coarser variations.

    Sometimes you will find that the later PCs (roughly) line up with specific aspects of a dataset (e.g. Europe or Africa specific variation) on a per PC basis.

    I find it amazing how much of the inter-racial SNP variation is explained by just a few PCs. It is also interesting to observe the relative differences in magnitude between intra-Africa, Africa vs. Rest of the World, and intra-RotW variation. These points are why focusing on percent variance explained is so informative.

    PCA can be incredibly informative for analyzing datasets which truly have underlying systematic variation, and the genetics of humans worldwide seem to be a great example.

    • Replies: @utu
  474. utu says:
    @bomag

    Black intellectual accomplishment – What accomplishment? As far as hard science is concerned the situation is tragic. In some African countries they have programs for children which eventually may bring some results but for the Blacks in the US I do not see much hope. They are in the grips of their pathological subculture. If Africans are infected with the American ghetto disease all be lost for Africa as well.

  475. Okechukwu says:
    @res

    The one drop rule is a great example of the social construct aspect.

    The one drop rule entirely invalidates the biological race concept. It is just one of a plethora of confounds that make biological races untenable.

    And Barack Obama makes an interesting case study. I wonder where he would appear in those PCA plots. Probably right on the line between Europeans and Africans where most African Americans line up.

    And yet Obama is “black.” You get the picture now?

    And thanks for demonstrating the false dilemma fallacy:

    Accusing me of engaging in fallacies and getting an amen from a clownish figure like CanSpeccy doesn’t make it so. I didn’t point to any dilemmas, I pointed to facts. Addressing a phantom “dilemma” in lieu of my actual argument is itself a form of strawman argumentation.

    As stated, you can have all the races you want. Race is whatever you think it is so knock yourself out. What you shouldn’t do is concoct artificial lines of demarcation in service to some ridiculous ideology. You can have thousands of races or you can have one. If you were true to your alleged principles you would opt for the former, and about 80% of those races would be in Africa. The remainder would be mere subsets of African variation.

    • Replies: @res
  476. @Okechukwu

    Allow me to do my impression of the typical IQist moron:

    “But…but…but these are just exceptions. You don’t understand averages blah blah blah.”

    Yeah, and as we all know, not having a doctoral degree or a prestigious science award is the exception among whites.

  477. utu says:
    @res

    I find it amazing that only 3 or 4 or 5 PC’s can do such a good job. And tell you the truth I have difficulty explaining it to myself in fully satisfactory manner. It might have something to do with the fact that the genetic distance (metric) is defined in N dimensional spaces (N is the number of SNPs under consideration) but the space is discreet since SNPs have discreet values (0,1,2,3) while PCs which are linear combinations of many SNPs have much larger dynamic range on the continuum and thus they can carry much more information.

    But as far as the validity of definition of race by clusters it does not make any difference whether the clusters must be defined in 5D or just 3D is sufficient. The robustness of the validity is in the predictive power of the model how well it can match geographical and phenotypical racial categories. That’s it and the case is closed as far as I am concerned. Races are defined by clusters, period. However the opponents of the concept of race in general are many. It is politically motivated debate. Already in 1950s UNESCO decreed there are no races:

    The 1950 statement says: ‘‘For all practical purposes ‘race’ is not so much a biological phenomenon as a social myth.’’

    I have just browsed these two papers dealing with the genetic definition of race. He rebuts all arguments of race as social myth. Not that I need the rebuttals because for me the case is closed.

    Sesardic, Neven. 2010. Race: A Social Destruction of a Biological Concept. Biology and Philosophy 25 (2): 143–162.

    Sesardic, Neven. 2013. Confusions About Race: A New Installment. Studies in History and Philosophy of Biological and Biomedical Sciences 44: 287–293

    I haven’t see this book yet.

    Wade, Nicholas. 2014. A Troublesome Inheritance: Genes, Race and Human History. New York: The Penguin Press.

    The book was attacked:

    https://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/idx/p/ptb/6959004.0009.012/–are-clusters-races-a-discussion-of-the-rhetorical?rgn=main;view=fulltext;q1=exceptions
    Wade’s work has been extensively criticized. In addition to numerous individual responses, a group of 143 scientists—including Rosenberg and several of his co-authors—signed a letter to the editor of The New York Times condemning the book’s assertions and concluding that “there is no support from the field of population genetics for Wade’s conjectures” (Coop et al. 2014).

    The same Rosenberg who did the work on clusters that demolishes all objections from the anti-race lobby. Apparently Wade touched on the subject of psychological and intelligence differences.

    And here is what Sesaric says about psychological aspect:

    Those who have read Hochman’s article but not mine will probably wonder why I didn’t go into adetailed analysis of relevant empirical studies given that Iraised the issue of possible psycho-logical differences among races. The explanation Igave in the pa-per is very simple: typically the hypothesis about interracial psychological differences is dismissed with sophistical arguments that wouldn’t be tolerated in almost any other area of scholarly debate. Therefore, I argued that people would be more likely to approach the whole issue with an open mind if these widely accepted but fallacious ‘‘refutations’’ of the hereditarian hypothesis were first exposed.

    • Replies: @res
    , @James Thompson
  478. @res

    Pretty much. You might find these plots more interesting: http://infoproc.blogspot.com/2010/08/connect-dots.html
    They cover roughly the continental races with a separate graphic for Africa. Makes clear how much variation is present within Africa compared to the rest of the world excluding Africa.

    One thing that is critical when interpreting PCA plots is to consider the percent variance explained by each component. In that first figure PC1 (which is largely what separates Europe and sub-Saharan Africa) accounts for 20% of the variance! PC2 and PC3 account for 5% and 3.5% of variance respectively.

    Again, no one is denying the reality of geographic genetic variation. The question that is asked and that you fail to answer is: on what basis do you call the clusters races.

    More concretely: when Utu becomes president of Loserland and establishes genetic requirements for citizenship or permanent residence, what variants can he use to make sure that all self-identified whites and no self-identified non-white qualifies?

    All the rest is statistical abstraction.

    Take this case as a thought experiment. Two pairs with one pair being a Nigerian male and Irish female and the other pair with the sexes reversed. Those pairs each have children and those children intermarry. It is possible that a grandchild will appear (or be, to all intents and purposes) completely Irish or Nigerian. Of course that is highly unlikely with the more likely outcomes being a blend of the phenotypes.

    Okay… Nothing new, a good friend of mine has a white French father and a black Cameroonian mother, he looks 100% African, his sister looks like Rihanna. Another friend I have is from Réunion island, she’s very very very white with blue eyes, freckles and blond hair, her brothers and her parents look like Obama, she thinks some genes have skipped a generation from her Norman grandfather. This whole island is very interesting in terms of phenotype diversity since Africans, Malagasys, Indians, Chinese, Arabs and Europeans have mixed freely over several centuries and families tend to display about all traits of the founding populations.

    Now what race are they all? Who can qualify for Loserlandish citizenship?

    Or you can just see the color spectrum as linear defined by frequency: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color#Spectral_colors
    There are benefits to both ways of looking at it. I think it is accurate to say that the linear representation is more the physical reality while the three color version is a result of human perception (three types of cone cells): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_vision#Cone_cells_in_the_human_eye

    Many animals have four types of cone cells: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrachromacy
    Including some humans! http://discovermagazine.com/2012/jul-aug/06-humans-with-super-human-vision
    An interesting wrinkle in terms of genetic engineering possibilities.

    The continuum still has ends. You can tell me humans are a continuum between the two most genetically individuals on earth, I think I can agree with this. However, races aren’t intermediate phenotypes between Southern African bushmen and Patagonian natives.

    • Replies: @res
  479. mikemikev says:
    @res

    Doug MacDonald is the author and I don’t have the axis variances. I think you can just map the same variances eg if South Africa to North Europe is 20% it will always be that.

    • Replies: @res
  480. res says:
    @Okechukwu

    The one drop rule entirely invalidates the biological race concept.

    What does the one drop rule have to do with genetic clusters? Just because the social and biological race concepts give different results in some cases does not mean either one entirely invalidates the other.

    And yet Obama is “black.” You get the picture now?

    That you felt compelled to spell that out (and in such patronizing fashion) is pretty funny. It is just another way of stating the one drop rule. Obama is both “black” and “half black and half white” depending on how one is looking at him.

    And thanks for demonstrating the false dilemma fallacy:

    Accusing me of engaging in fallacies and getting an amen from a clownish figure like CanSpeccy doesn’t make it so. I didn’t point to any dilemmas, I pointed to facts. Addressing a phantom “dilemma” in lieu of my actual argument is itself a form of strawman argumentation.

    Since you felt compelled to double down (I thought you knew better by now) it’s time for a bit of Remedial Logical Fallacies 101.

    First, there is the ad hominem “clownish figure.”

    Next, let’s return to this excerpt from your comment 443 (which I quoted in comment 453 in support of my original statement):

    The one drop rule is Exhibit A that goes to show that race is a social rather than a biological reality.

    The dilemma (perhaps dichotomy would be clearer to you?) was between these alternatives:
    1. Race is a social reality.
    2. Race is a biological reality.
    It is a false dilemma (or false dichotomy) because they are not in fact mutually exclusive (since this is the remedial course I’ll add that “rather than” is what makes them mutually exclusive in your statement). I think this was covered in my link from comment 453: https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/94/False-Dilemma

    Lastly, it’s not a strawman when I can demonstrate it with your own words.

    Three fallacies in one paragraph. Impressive. But not in a good way.

    You can have thousands of races or you can have one. If you were true to your alleged principles you would opt for the former, and about 80% of those races would be in Africa. The remainder would be mere subsets of African variation.

    There are many different levels of genetic similarity and it makes sense to view them as hierarchical clusters. Different levels are appropriate for addressing different questions (and where have I said anything to the contrary?). For example, I think it is useful to notice that the largest difference is seen between Africa (more accurately sub-Saharan Africa) and the rest of the world. It is also useful to notice that there is both intra-African and intra-European variation with the intra-African variation being larger. It is also noteworthy that the intra-African variation is captured by different principal components than the variation between Africa and rest of the world.

    P.S. You are better than that. Please try harder to be correct.

    • Replies: @Okechukwu
  481. Factorize says:

    I have tried to steer clear of the more inflammatory aspects of race, though the recent genetic selection service does suggest to me an interesting application of this technology: skin color selection.

    Skin color is determined by a very small number of genes (perhaps 5). If we can reduce race down to skin color, then we have now reached an era in which race is simply another life style choice that can be changed at will. Would this new company actually comply with such a request?

    There has been much vehement discussion on this thread related to skin color. What if skin color is no longer of any particular importance? What if we can decouple the pigmentation of skin and other genetic features (such as psychometric ones)?

    This new possibility could pose very severe dangers for the functioning of our communities. What if all the associated behavior and cultural traditions that exists that relates to shared ancestry over the last 50,000 could be completely disguised by merely the cosmetic selection of 5 genes? The consequences of such speculations might only be months away.

    • Replies: @utu
  482. res says: