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Clannishness – the Series: Zigzag Lightning in the Brain

Post updated, 9/23/15 9/22/15. See below!

This will be the first column in a series on the broad human behavioral dimension dubbed “clannishness” by HBD Chick. I’ve talked quite about clannishness here, and of course it is the main theme of HBD Chick’s blog.

For background, see:

start here | hbd chick clannishness defined | hbd chick
big summary post on the hajnal line | hbd chick

Those Who Can See: Why Re-Colonization? Commonweal Orientation

200 Blog Posts – Everything You Need to Know (To Start): Intraracial group variation and HBD Chick’s theory
The Rise of Universalism
National Prosperity

(Note: the above links are here for a reason. Before commenting about confusion about something I talk about here, try checking to see if it was discussed in the above.)

Yes, clannishness is a real human quality (as the above make abundantly clear). It is a distinct cluster of behavioral traits and attitudes (see Predictions on the Worldwide Distribution of Personality) that correlate with each other globally (and to an extent on an individual level). All human groups (particularly post agricultural/horticultural ones) fall somewhere on this dimension:
WVS axes

In this series, I will explore different facets of this clannishness dimension. (Each entry in this series probably won’t be sequential, but they will come.) In this entry, I’ll look at one particular aspect of this divide: the “curious” phenomenon of Western inventiveness.

There is little question that Northwestern Europeans have excelled in arena of discovery and science. Indeed, it was Northwestern Europeans that gave us science as we know it. Northwestern Europeans brought about the Scientific and Industrial Revolutions and continue to be at the forefront of discovery today. The modern world as we know it would not exist without Northwestern European contributions.

Why is this case? Why has one corner of the world contributed so much? Various (mostly stupid) ideas have been put forward to explain this. Most discount the role of biology in leading to these outcomes. As we’ve seen previously (e.g., Demography is Destiny, American Nations Edition), societal differences are driven by biological differences between people. In short, the people make the society. Northwestern European inventiveness is no exception.

Many of those who are biologically aware credit average IQ as having a role, and indeed it does. There won’t be much progress or discovery without raw brain power. Let’s look at the average IQ across the world:

And taking to account the European diaspora:

http://pc-freak.net/blog/iq-world-rank-country-smartest-nations/

We see that IQ is indeed important. However, as the following maps will show, IQ is clearly not the only factor operating here:

Nobel Scientific-fine

An edit of a map found here.

Fields Medals per capita

Data from here.

Science output per capita

Data from here.

As we can see, average IQ is part of the story, but far from all of it. Particularly, despite having roughly the same average IQ, Eastern Europeans and East Asians underperform relative to Northwestern Europeans (and their offshoots). This isn’t even entirely of matter of lack of “manpower”, as this map of the number of researchers per million shows (from here):
l_1124_29ee4c9e6c84cf278ee4ada3f24ad506

Russia and Eastern Europe, for example, lag noticeably behind the Northwest. Japan and South Korea underperform both in total output (somewhat) as well as in the top prizes (they do perform much better in patents per capita, however). The latter two countries indicate that it’s not just a matter of national wealth or funding that drives these patterns.

A recent paper (discussed by James Thompson – Psychological comments: Asians: bright, but not curious? ) looked specifically at the East Asian-European gap in top prizes. But as we see, there is a noticeable gap within Europe. Particularly, the Northwestern countries are quite a bit ahead both the Southern and Eastern countries (as is the case with so many other things). The north-south disparity is to be expected due to the IQ cline:

But what about the east-west disparity? That’s harder to explain solely with IQ.

Even among the Northwestern countries, the more Germanic countries stand ahead of the rest. Northwestern Europe, particularly the Germanic countries, have long been centers of development and progress. Indeed, Charles Murray wrote a whole book on that. In Human Accomplishment: The Pursuit of Excellence in the Arts and Sciences, 800 B.C. to 1950, Murray noted where the great scientists, mathematicians, and artists tended to originate. Overall, the pattern looks like this (as cited by HBD Chick – “core europe” and human accomplish-ment | hbd chick):

charles-murray-human-accomplishment-map-european-core-hajnal-line charles-murray-origins-of-significant-figures-1800-1950

This pattern of innovation stemming from “core” Europe persists to the present day, as seen by patent applications per capita there (from here):

Europe Patents

Indeed, a project tracing the place of birth and place of death of historically notable people across the world (and particularly Europe and North America) reproduces this pattern. See The History Of Cultural Migration, Mapped. Indeed, the animated visualization of this process over the last 2,000 years is mesmerizing to watch. You can actually watch civilization appear before your very eyes:

This video explains more of the process:

Interestingly, the latter video shows the rise of modern Europe and its siring of the American Nations. In essence, it is a visualization of much of what HBD Chick and I have discussed in our writing.

Edit, 3/26/16 [Listen also to this podcast by Sam Harris, specially the sections between time points 45:00 and 51:00. The realities of the achievements of Northwestern European societies relative to rest of the world are discussed ***End Edit***]

What is responsible for this pattern? Kura, te Nijenhuis, and Dutton blame the difference on a composite of novelty-seeking, social anxiety, fear of exclusion, and individualism. In their paper, they claimed that “Europeans” (all Northwestern Europeans) were less socially anxious, less fearful of exclusion, more novelty-seeking, and more individualistic than East Asians. Readers here will be familiar with this pattern: these are elements of personality differences as described previously in Predictions on the Worldwide Distribution of Personality, where I discuss variation in global personality in the HEXACO system. Particularly, more individualistic and more novelty seeking are facets of high Openness to experience. Fear of exclusion is an aspect of high Emotionality (and possibly high Agreeableness). And social anxiety is a facet of low eXtraversion. See also Staffan’s post on the Northeast Asian variant of the shame culture, the face culture: Honor, Dignity, and Face: Culture as Personality Writ Large | Staffan’s Personality Blog

The HEXACO captures variation in clannishness across the world. However, I wouldn’t want to reduce the difference to variation in personality dimensions, because ultimately the HEXACO is a theoretical construct (and an incomplete one) which partially captures the underlying variation. The variation is real; the system of personality traits and our various other measures merely approximate it. In any case, I think something deeper and more fundamental is going on here than just personality.

Others have suggested that the difference is creativity; East Asians are simply less creative than Westerners, so the story goes. The title of this entry is a reference to a quote “Genius is a zigzag lightning in the brain which other men have not,” which itself was quoted by Steve Sailer in an old VDare article discussing Gregory Clark’s A Farewell to Alms. Sailer noted that Clarkian selection produced intelligence in both Northern Europe and East Asia, but it could not have been responsible for the apparent creative ability of some of the former. I suspect that raw creative ability is involved, but I think that’s hardly the whole story.

For one, I’m not sure we can say Northwestern Europeans are the most creative people in the world. Blacks have demonstrated substantial creativity, particularly in music and entertainment. But likely this doesn’t translate into scientific ability in good part because of Blacks’ lower average IQ. But nonetheless, I think here’s something more fundamental going on here:

To which group does the flower on the bottom belong? This was the subject of a few of HBD Chick’s posts (do you think like a westerner? ; do you think like a westerner? (repeat); and east vs. west?). Essentially, research pioneered by Richard Nisbett found that “Westerners” (all Northwestern European in descent) tend to group the flower with group B, while “Easterners” (East Asians) group the flower with group A. Essentially, this is a test of abstract vs. holistic thinking between each group. This videos discuss it in further detail:

In the flower example, NW Europeans will group the flower with group B, because they all share the same stem. It’s a crisp rule that sharply delineates one from type of flower from the other. East Asians, on the other hand, will group the flower with group A, because they share “superficial” characteristics. The first video gives another example at time point 36:57. A set of three objects, a giant panda, a monkey, and a banana, were presented to Whites and to East Asians. Participants were asked to group two of the objects together. Westerners grouped the panda and the monkey (since they’re both animals). Easterners, on the other hand, grouped the monkey and the banana (since monkeys eat bananas).

This may seem like a simple and seemingly meaningless difference, but it goes to the core of one of the key ways WEIRDO people are different from the rest of humanity. The ability to think abstractly and understand crisp linear rules of how things relate to each other is fundamental to being an effective scientist. I’ll argue that development of the Northwestern European penchant for abstraction is directly responsible (among other traits) for the Scientific and Industrial Revolutions.

Additionally, the video discusses another key difference between Western vs. Eastern (i.e., WEIRDO vs. clannish) thought: the former see things (and themselves) as atomized individuals, while the latter view objects in the world as part of an interconnected whole. This is a defining aspect on the clannishness dimension: low-clannishness peoples (WEIRDOs) see themselves as atomized individuals, who form associations voluntarily and not necessarily based on kinship. High-clannishness peoples see themselves as inherently part of the group (e.g., family, clan, tribe, village/town, etc.). Kura et al were correct in that a penchant for individualistic thought is an essential ingredient for new discovery. Here I highlight the underlying characteristic (i.e., clannishness) of which individualism is an aspect.

Together, abstract thought along with individualism helped foster NW European development. East Asians and others may have made many discoveries and possessed fair technological ability throughout their history (in line with their high average IQ), but they, by and large, lacked the ability to put it all together in a coherent system of analysis and discovery – i.e., science. East Asians (and for that matter, North eastern Europeans) didn’t begin to excel in these areas until they were introduced to the scientific method (and by that, I mean the whole linear abstract way of thinking) by NW Europeans.

Now, some may be wondering the following: East Asians are known for mathematic ability, and indeed, they do seem to posses higher average mathematic ability than NW Europeans. And math is perhaps the most abstract matter there is (with good reason, I believe). Yet we see less by way of top ability from East Asians. This is not due to East Asians possessing a narrower standard deviation in IQ than NW Euros. Nonetheless, the Fields Medal statistics clearly show East Asians (and Eastern Europeans) lagging well behind NW Europeans in top accomplishments. This confirms that their worse Nobel performance isn’t just due to institutional barriers or other social limitation, but lower ability to make novel advancements.

Despite all this, one thing that abstract thinking is NOT all that good for is understanding people. It’s difficult to brute-force “reason” through what makes people think and how they’ll behave. You have to understand this intuitively. Indeed, the human brain is heavily dedicated to social reasoning and understanding how people think. Clannish peoples have taken this a step further because of the low trust that prevails in clannish societies . Referring back to my post Predictions on the Worldwide Distribution of Personality, the H of the HEXACO, Honesty-humility, captures one key element of the clannish dimension. Clannish peoples are much lower on this dimension than WEIRDOs. Machiavellianism – talent at deceptive manipulation – requires an intuitive understanding of how people tick. Indeed, to illustrate, let’s hear it as told by a master:

“Holistic” thinking is better for understanding people and anticipating their motives (and for figuring out how to take advantage of them). This reigns in clannish societies because deception (and hence, the need for the ability to detect deception) are par for the course in them.

By contrast, in WEIRDO societies, excessive abstraction is common, particularly when it comes to people (example: all of libertarianism). NW Euro liberals are susceptible to this naive abstraction about people. An example from Sweden (quote Google Translated from Swedish):

Municipalities will be required to accept refugees if it is not possible to reach a voluntary agreement. The distribution between the municipalities should take greater account of their economy. … There is a big difference on how many refugees Swedish municipalities receive. Labour Minister Ylva Johansson (S) is now presenting a proposal on how the distribution will become more even. – My assessment is that this skewed distribution is not sustainable. It must become fairer and more reasonable, says Ylva Johansson.

This is one reason (in addition to high-trust, guilt culture, and WEIRDO reciprocal altruism) that NW Europeans have open their doors immigrants from around the world:

Indeed, there’s a fairly good correlation between Nobels per capita and the fraction Muslim in the country (data source for Muslim population). In this analysis, I excluded Bulgaria and Russia (as their Muslim populations stem more from conquest than from immigration). I also excluded Luxembourg as an outlier:

As well there is a modest correlation between Nobels per capita and those reporting positive attitudes towards immigration from outside the European Union (source for attitudes here):

Nobel Immigrant positive plot

And indeed, a recent study by Thomas Talhem, Jonathan Haidt, et al found that Liberals Think More Analytically (More “WEIRD”) Than Conservatives. They ran various tests of abstract vs. holistic thinking on American, British, and Chinese subjects. They found that the more liberal ones in each country trended towards more abstract thinking. Now, in the Anglo countries, there may have been some ethnic confounding. But if so, this would still be consistent with the apparent global pattern. Nonetheless, for greater certainty, we need tests of abstract vs. holistic thinking from more countries, especially more non-WEIRDO ones.

Staffan has previously noted that this divide between WEIRDO and clannish thinking is visible in entertainment, particularly movies: Why a Good Story Must Be Archetypal and Why Modern Storytellers Must Lie About It | Staffan’s Personality Blog

it seems like archetypes are something like hardwired predispositions, and that a good story is one which will resonate with this wiring … Now, given that a modern [WEIRDO] person is partly freed of moral foundations and clannishness, it would make sense to argue that such a person is also partly freed from his archetypal predispositions too … he is also less prone to archetypal thinking, which should make him a pretty poor storyteller. … there was a brief period of time when modern people were dominant in Western culture – the 1960s and 1970s – and they could do pretty much as they pleased. They made arty, existential, surrealistic and generally experimental films. Given the amount of modern films created during this period the film studios no doubt thought it was the next big thing. But like any stories that lacks that archetypal magic, they appealed to the critics – a group that is clearly modern – but they were never a big hit with the broader audience.

Modern movies have fared better when they returned to more archetypal-bases. A good example may be the difference between 1979′s Star Trek: The Motion Picture and the following film in the franchise, Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan. The former film is very abstract and cerebral, and didn’t resonant with people all that well. By contrast, Star Trek II is still generally regarded as the greatest film in the franchise. Director Nicholas Meyer took Star Trek II in a more archetypal direction. It depicts a classic battle of good vs. evil between forceful characters, and that gave us a memorable film.

How did this penchant for abstraction come about among NW Europeans? I suspect that part of it has to do with the rise of high-trust and social atomization (i.e., individualism) in NW European societies. As clannishness disappeared, and as people were no longer bound to their families or clans (and indeed, we were free to interact with non-relative in cooperative ventures), people became more free to engage in intellectually stimulating thought. Mental space previously devoted understand one’s place in society and keep ahead of schemers now could be used on more abstract pursuits. Indeed, perhaps this was favored in the NW Euro way of life. I will discuss the evolution of NW Euro traits further in future entries in this series.

Edit, 9/22/15: [Several of the commenters seem to be really confused on a basic point. The reality is that evolution proceeds much quicker than you think. Just as HBD'ers generally understand that human evolution didn't stop 50,000 years ago, it also did not stop 10,000 years ago, or even 1,000 years ago, or even 500 or 200 years ago. Evolution continues right up to the present day. The reason I bring this up is because I keep hearing about how X group was doing this 2,000 years ago or about how Y group was doing this 1,000 years ago, so how could they be so different now? The reason is that they have changed since that time.

Please see these two key posts from Greg Cochran:

The long and short of it | West Hunter

The breeder’s equation | West Hunter

You can have considerable change in a population over the course of 400-500 years if they are under a sustained selective pressure. As an example, see this comment over at Chick's:

the major gradient of genetic/ancestral differences in Spain is perpendicular to the gradient in IQ, clannishness, and other key traits! This is strong evidence for recent evolution (within the last few centuries), because this indicates that, despite being different genetically, people in [adjacent] corners of Spain (along the east-west direction) nontheless developed similarities in key traits. In other words, convergent evolution.

I hope everyone is clear on that, and I stop getting comments about this problem. Evolution is fast enough so that people 1,000 years ago can be different from today’s people, but not fast enough that average IQ could have declined one standard deviation in the West since Victorian times.

Also, while I’m editing, here’s a bonus map that displays the same pattern as the above maps of intellectual achievement (source):

Though I’m sure the way to more Nobels is to listen to more heavy metal music…. (sarcasm). ***End Edit***]

The Northwestern European penchant for abstraction (along with many other unique psychological characteristics of this group) gave us the modern world as we know it. What allowed NW Europeans to once dominate the world now leads to poor decisions, such as allowing mass migration from clannish societies into NW European countries. As I said, demography is destiny, and the people make the society. Allowing mass migration large enough possibly lead to partial population replacement – as NW Europeans are now doing – will greatly erode what sustains modern civilization. Left unchecked, NW European society will disappear – just as the Roman Empire did before it. This would objectively be a great loss to the entire world. Hopefully, things turn around before the situation gets that bad, but, only time will tell.

Edit, 9/23/15: [See HBD Chick's response to this: a few thoughts | hbd chick ***End Edit***]

For the ending theme, one interesting exercise in the contrast between abstract and holistic thinking is to compare German classical music with Italian operas. The contrast between mechanistic structure in one and emotion and human interest concerns in the other is fascinating. Look up the lyrics for this.

 
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  1. 3RD WORLD IMMIGRATION INTO WHITE NATIONS AND WHITE HATE DUE TO RELIGION, NOT RACE.

    Thanks for the interesting article, Sir. You have made a great case proving what should be obvious to most—that white people are more intelligent and have discovered/invented most of the great things. However you said: “What allowed NW Europeans to once dominate the world now leads to poor decisions, such as allowing mass migration from clannish societies into NW European countries.”

    I do not think white alienism is due to race, but due to religion—Christianity. Almost all nations that allow massive 3rd world immigration and other Jewish liberalism are certainly white, but, they are also Christian. The 3 Abrahamic faiths can make a sane man insane. I can’t explain this fully in this short space, except mention some interesting links here proving the pathology of Christianity.

    http://www.jesusneverexisted.com

    Pope criticizes nations that protect themselves from African invaders:

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/06/17/us-europe-migrants-pope-idUSKBN0OX0XN20150617

    Rev. Dr. John C. Dorhauer, President of the United Church of Christ, author of two books, Doctorate in White Privilege, Shalom Award recipient for peace commitments attacks whites about “white privilege”

    See: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rev-dr-john-c-dorhauer/an-open-letter-to-white-m_b_7857790.html

    As you can see, it appears that Judaists paid him with Shalom Award (and in other ways) to destroy white goyim and brainwash them.

    Over 100 scholarly books have been written proving that Jews-us never existed. That is why people are leaving Christianity in droves and returning to the religion of our ancestors, such as Odinism, Deism, Druid, etc. Even atheism or Deism are better than this African cult of Christianity.

    Read More
    • Replies: @JayMan

    I do not think white alienism is due to race, but due to religion—Christianity. Almost all nations that allow massive 3rd world immigration and other Jewish liberalism are certainly white, but, they are also Christian. The 3 Abrahamic faiths can make a sane man insane. I can’t explain this fully in this short space, except mention some interesting links here proving the pathology of Christianity.
     
    Where did Western Christianity come from?
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  2. @Tom_R
    3RD WORLD IMMIGRATION INTO WHITE NATIONS AND WHITE HATE DUE TO RELIGION, NOT RACE.

    Thanks for the interesting article, Sir. You have made a great case proving what should be obvious to most—that white people are more intelligent and have discovered/invented most of the great things. However you said: “What allowed NW Europeans to once dominate the world now leads to poor decisions, such as allowing mass migration from clannish societies into NW European countries.”

    I do not think white alienism is due to race, but due to religion—Christianity. Almost all nations that allow massive 3rd world immigration and other Jewish liberalism are certainly white, but, they are also Christian. The 3 Abrahamic faiths can make a sane man insane. I can’t explain this fully in this short space, except mention some interesting links here proving the pathology of Christianity.

    www.jesusneverexisted.com

    Pope criticizes nations that protect themselves from African invaders:

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/06/17/us-europe-migrants-pope-idUSKBN0OX0XN20150617

    Rev. Dr. John C. Dorhauer, President of the United Church of Christ, author of two books, Doctorate in White Privilege, Shalom Award recipient for peace commitments attacks whites about "white privilege"

    See: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rev-dr-john-c-dorhauer/an-open-letter-to-white-m_b_7857790.html

    As you can see, it appears that Judaists paid him with Shalom Award (and in other ways) to destroy white goyim and brainwash them.

    Over 100 scholarly books have been written proving that Jews-us never existed. That is why people are leaving Christianity in droves and returning to the religion of our ancestors, such as Odinism, Deism, Druid, etc. Even atheism or Deism are better than this African cult of Christianity.

    I do not think white alienism is due to race, but due to religion—Christianity. Almost all nations that allow massive 3rd world immigration and other Jewish liberalism are certainly white, but, they are also Christian. The 3 Abrahamic faiths can make a sane man insane. I can’t explain this fully in this short space, except mention some interesting links here proving the pathology of Christianity.

    Where did Western Christianity come from?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Tom_R
    INTELLIGENT WHITES PROVE JESUS NEVER EXISTED.

    Thanks for your kind response, Sir. I read your link. I presume you are implying that whites invented Christianity—but whites also invented Biblical criticism and archeology which proves that Jesus never existed. Over a hundred scholarly texts (many now available online) have been written by various white Europeans and American proving that the Jesus never existed, but is just a myth. Eg.

    Forgery in Christianity, by Joseph Wheless
    The Christ, by Remsberg.
    The Age of Reason, by founding father Thomas Paine.
    The Christ Myth, by Arthur Drews
    The Forgery of the Old Testament, by Joseph McCabe
    The Jesus Myth, by George Albert Wells
    "Pagan Origins of the Christ myth" by Dr. Jackson

    The Jesus myth was copied from similar myths of older religions, such as Horus/Isiris of Egypt, Mithra of Persia.

    The Old Testament is set in Egypt, which is in Africa, and is full of African mythology. According to the Bible, Jesus was a “Jew”. But their patriarch Abraham sold his wife Sarai to an Egyptian, therefore negro Pharaoh. Their prophet, a “Jew”, Moses, was so black, the African pharaoh assumed he was his grandson! So Jesus must have been black too. The irony is the world’s most intelligent people worshiping a mythical negro and believing that if they “believe” in him, they will go to heaven!!

    , @Anonymous
    The earliest Christians and proselytes were Jews in the Roman Empire.
    , @Olorin
    Not the North Sea/west of the Hajnal Line. That much is certain.

    What came from there: systematic methods for critique and analysis of religion, including the entire field of comparative myth and religion.

  3. “This would objectively be a great loss to the entire world.”

    I don’t care about this. I would rather live in a hovel, than receive some material advantage in exchange for my enemies lording over me. Most optimally of course, I would like to gain the white demon’s power.

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    • Replies: @anon
    This reminds me of the kind of stuff that goes in places like Iraq and Afghanistan where the military build a well for four villages to share and they smash it up at night because the benefit to the three enemy villages is more important to them than the benefit to their own.
  4. @JayMan

    I do not think white alienism is due to race, but due to religion—Christianity. Almost all nations that allow massive 3rd world immigration and other Jewish liberalism are certainly white, but, they are also Christian. The 3 Abrahamic faiths can make a sane man insane. I can’t explain this fully in this short space, except mention some interesting links here proving the pathology of Christianity.
     
    Where did Western Christianity come from?

    INTELLIGENT WHITES PROVE JESUS NEVER EXISTED.

    Thanks for your kind response, Sir. I read your link. I presume you are implying that whites invented Christianity—but whites also invented Biblical criticism and archeology which proves that Jesus never existed. Over a hundred scholarly texts (many now available online) have been written by various white Europeans and American proving that the Jesus never existed, but is just a myth. Eg.

    Forgery in Christianity, by Joseph Wheless
    The Christ, by Remsberg.
    The Age of Reason, by founding father Thomas Paine.
    The Christ Myth, by Arthur Drews
    The Forgery of the Old Testament, by Joseph McCabe
    The Jesus Myth, by George Albert Wells
    “Pagan Origins of the Christ myth” by Dr. Jackson

    The Jesus myth was copied from similar myths of older religions, such as Horus/Isiris of Egypt, Mithra of Persia.

    The Old Testament is set in Egypt, which is in Africa, and is full of African mythology. According to the Bible, Jesus was a “Jew”. But their patriarch Abraham sold his wife Sarai to an Egyptian, therefore negro Pharaoh. Their prophet, a “Jew”, Moses, was so black, the African pharaoh assumed he was his grandson! So Jesus must have been black too. The irony is the world’s most intelligent people worshiping a mythical negro and believing that if they “believe” in him, they will go to heaven!!

    Read More
  5. If I am reading the first diagram correctly, Russia is more inbred than Pakistan ( a country where first-cousin marriage is the norm). That seems suspect. Also the Irish IQ seems low – e.g.lower than Zambia. I don’t believe that at all.

    Read More
    • Replies: @JayMan

    I am reading the first diagram correctly, Russia is more inbred than Pakistan ( a country where first-cousin marriage is the norm).
     
    The axes added by me represent a general trend, not an definitive scale. Russia is not more inbred than Pakistan, but it is more so than those on the right side of the plot.
  6. Great post! And interesting comments to start off…

    Even among the Northwestern countries, the more Germanic countries stand ahead of the rest.

    Pretty much. Even the parts of Italy and France that are highly productive also happen to be more Germanic (or Teutonic) culturally.

    What is responsible for this pattern? Kura, te Nijenhuis, and Dutton blame the difference on a composite of novelty-seeking, social anxiety, fear of exclusion, and individualism.

    Seems almost obvious at this point, especially to those of us who have been around both groups.

    For one, I’m not sure we can say Northwestern Europeans are the most creative people in the world. Blacks have demonstrated substantial creativity, particularly in music and entertainment.

    I would argue that blacks’ “creativity” is mostly a function of their high extroversion. In the fields where they predominate, like popular music and comedy, they tend to specialize in certain areas: in popular music, mostly improvisational (jazz) or syncopated dance music (R&B, hip-hop). Of course, you don’t see see too many in Swedish death metal. In comedy, usually stand-up. On the flip-side the number of great black composers or movie producers/directors, or even script writers, is fairly limited.

    I would argue that black creativity represents a more evolutionarily “familiar” form of creativity compared to the more novel form found in whites, which tends to more complex art forms and science.

    Essentially, research pioneered by Richard Nisbett found that “Westerners” (all Northwestern European in descent) tend to group the flower with group B, while “Easterners” (East Asians) group the flower with group A.

    Have his book. Took me a while to understand 1) Nisbett’s argument that East Asians consider situational factors more while Westerners consider personality factors more but 2) Westerners still support liberal social policies. It’s because Westerners assume everyone (or most) are governed by guilt.

    I’ll argue that development of the Northwestern European penchant for abstraction is directly responsible (among other traits) for the Scientific and Industrial Revolutions.

    Sounds plausible.

    Now, some may be wondering the following: East Asians are known for mathematic ability, and indeed, they do seem to posses higher average mathematic ability than NW Europeans. And math is perhaps the most abstract matter there is (with good reason, I believe).

    Anyone that’s been on tech research university campus lately notices the overwhelming number of Asians compared to whites.

    one thing that abstract thinking is NOT all that good for is understanding people.

    If you think about people abstractly through the lens of behavioral genetics, you can get a pretty good understanding of them. Not so much through Freudian psychology or post-modernism.

    Indeed, there’s a fairly good correlation between Nobels per capita and the fraction Muslim in the country

    Interesting!

    By contrast, in WEIRDO societies, excessive abstraction is common, particularly when it comes to people (example: all of libertarianism).

    Interesting. But an aspect of libertarianism seems somewhat clannish. They’re less concerned about public good, and they praise the Virtue of Selfishness, to use Ayn Rand’s motto.

    As a final note: you’ve laid out brilliantly that Westerners = reductionistic, and Easterners = holistic. But what explains Westerners fascination with Eastern holism since the 1960s, particularly among those high in openness? (in the form of Eastern religion, New Age, systems theory, vegetarianism, etc.)

    Oh, second final note: This all makes perfect sense, but it would be good get to get as much data as possible to back up your assertions (which you’ve done a lot already); people will claim that you’re inventing ad-hoc reasons for East Asian weakness in sciences despite their higher intelligence. And then they’ll say you’re raaaaay-cist!

    Third final note: One area where Asians are definitely more creative is animation!

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    • Replies: @JayMan

    For one, I’m not sure we can say Northwestern Europeans are the most creative people in the world. Blacks have demonstrated substantial creativity, particularly in music and entertainment.

    I would argue that blacks’ “creativity” is mostly a function of their high extroversion. In the fields where they predominate, like popular music and comedy, they tend to specialize in certain areas: in popular music, mostly improvisational (jazz) or syncopated dance music (R&B, hip-hop).
     

    I don't think it's simply a matter of extroversion.

    Of course, you don’t see see too many in Swedish death metal.
     
    About that (almost added this to the post):

    https://twitter.com/JayMan471/statuses/508328358669987840

    Same pattern as the rest. I know some fool out there will claim that the way to win more Nobel prizes is to listen to more heavy metal.


    As a final note: you’ve laid out brilliantly that Westerners = reductionistic, and Easterners = holistic. But what explains Westerners fascination with Eastern holism since the 1960s, particularly among those high in openness? (in the form of Eastern religion, New Age, systems theory, vegetarianism, etc.)
     
    Yup.

    Oh, second final note: This all makes perfect sense, but it would be good get to get as much data as possible to back up your assertions (which you’ve done a lot already); people will claim that you’re inventing ad-hoc reasons for East Asian weakness in sciences despite their higher intelligence. And then they’ll say you’re raaaaay-cist!
     
    The data speak for themselves.
  7. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    Nonetheless, the Fields Medal statistics clearly show East Asians (and Eastern Europeans) lagging well behind NW Europeans in top accomplishments. This confirms that their worse Nobel performance isn’t just due to institutional barriers or other social limitation, but lower ability to make novel advancements.

    Ashkenazim surpass NW Europeans on these sorts of measures. Also, abstract and scientific thinking goes back to the ancient Greeks. The origin of many extant sciences is credited to Aristotle, and the kind of mathematized model building that characterizes modern science is present in Hellenistic Greece and Near East. No historians of science credit science to NW Europeans. It’s credited to Mediterranean populations.

    Read More
    • Replies: @JayMan

    lso, abstract and scientific thinking goes back to the ancient Greeks. The origin of many extant sciences is credited to Aristotle, and the kind of mathematized model building that characterizes modern science is present in Hellenistic Greece and Near East.
     
    NOTE TO FUTURE COMMENTERS: EVOLUTION GOES FASTER THAN YOU THINK! I'm tired of going over this point. Non-clannish peoples appear to have evolved before (certain Greeks perhaps, and Romans). But they have since changed (and in the case of Northern Italians, changed back).

    No historians of science credit science to NW Europeans.
     
    There is no question that modern science is a NW European invention.
    , @Mike Smiddy

    Ashkenazim surpass NW Europeans on these sorts of measures.
     
    Perhaps this is true, but you still have to remember that the very founding mitochondrial DNA of the Ashkenazi genome is Italian (Northern Italian, which would make them Wasp, if I remember correctly). They really are an "in-betweener" group.

    There is no denying the incredible impact of Jews historically, particularly when it comes to ideas, but there's a plethora of issues which makes accounting for them through any universal system or rubric problematic, to put it mildly.


    Also, abstract and scientific thinking goes back to the ancient Greeks. The origin of many extant sciences is credited to Aristotle, and the kind of mathematized model building that characterizes modern science is present in Hellenistic Greece and Near East. No historians of science credit science to NW Europeans. It’s credited to Mediterranean populations.
     
    I think someone else addressed this, but yeah you could do some more research, your definitions seem to be a bit out of context.
  8. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    By contrast, in WEIRDO societies, excessive abstraction is common, particularly when it comes to people (example: all of libertarianism). NW Euro liberals are susceptible to this naive abstraction about people

    Aren’t many of libertarianism’s leading lights Jewish?- Hayek, Friedman, Rand, Caplan, etc. Aren’t Jewish people (historically) more clannish than NW Euros? Does it make sense to include them as a NW Euro group, when the evidence shows they’re 50-50 ME/Italian origin? What explains this discrepancy- libertarianism’s appeal to a clannish group?

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    • Replies: @JayMan

    Aren’t Jewish people (historically) more clannish than NW Euros?
     
    Ashkenazis are a type of in-betweener group. They have both clannish and WEIRDO attributes (and then, Western Ashkenazis may be less than clannish Eastern Ashkenazis are.)
    , @Jason Bayz
    Hayek wasn't Jewish.
    , @Lion of the Judah-sphere
    Good observation. So is libertarianism's militant cousin, neoconservatism.
  9. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @JayMan

    I do not think white alienism is due to race, but due to religion—Christianity. Almost all nations that allow massive 3rd world immigration and other Jewish liberalism are certainly white, but, they are also Christian. The 3 Abrahamic faiths can make a sane man insane. I can’t explain this fully in this short space, except mention some interesting links here proving the pathology of Christianity.
     
    Where did Western Christianity come from?

    The earliest Christians and proselytes were Jews in the Roman Empire.

    Read More
  10. The Indian Map doesn’t even make a distinction between 2 entirely separate set of peoples, the 500 million or Aryans of the (v)Edda religion, who are all Indo-European people/languages and the 500 million or so Dravidians who are an entirely unrelated people with almost non-existent intermarriage between the two groups.

    Yet, it’s all orange.

    Funniest (and shoddiest) thing I’ve read, really needed the lulz. Is “Jayman” an alt for Razib Khan or something? LOL!

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  11. At first glance the idea that clannishness is opposed to high trust invites questions. After all family and clan require trust and punishment of betrayal of trust to get the benefit out of belonging to the clan.

    So, to start with, is even the presumption of trust and loyalty within the clan incorrect? Are the dynamics of large families, and even larger much extended clannish families, such as to produce friction, tension and dislike?

    I guess that all that is being said is that the modern individualistic peoples eventually based their work and lives on activities which required interactions well beyond the family and clan and that only those able to learn and adopt ways that were conducive to trust and honest dealings thrived.

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    • Replies: @JayMan

    At first glance the idea that clannishness is opposed to high trust invites questions. After all family and clan require trust and punishment of betrayal of trust to get the benefit out of belonging to the clan.

    So, to start with, is even the presumption of trust and loyalty within the clan incorrect?
     

    This is why I put the note to read the links in the beginning of the post. But yes, in clannish societies, there is generally high trust within the clan, but lower trust between clans.

    Are the dynamics of large families, and even larger much extended clannish families, such as to produce friction, tension and dislike?
     
    Well clannish people tend to be more antagonistic and aggressive, so family life is often more acrimonious than in WEIRDO families just for that reason.
  12. The thing is you don’t really need “clannishness” to explain any of this (except insofar as in extreme inbreeding cases it begins to greatly lower overall IQ leading to much smaller smart fractions).

    Ancient Greeks did a lot of abstract thinking, and produced the greatest cultural/scientific peak until the Renaissance (according to the same Charles Murray’s figures). During the Middle Ages, in pure scientific terms, the Islamic world was most advanced. The Renaissance began in northern Italy. Only in the 17th century did the bulk of scientific discoveries move to NW Europe.

    North Italians are not Middle Easterners in the clannishness department, but they are most certainly not Englishmen or Swedes either. The Swedes at that time however were about 1% literate (can’t have much literacy in a low-density, rural environment at that level of development) whereas the literacy rate in Renaissance Italy was more like 20%.

    Scientific creativity is much more likely a simple function of smart fractions * literacy race, with East Asians needing a downwards adjustment on account of lower curiosity (or “q factor” as Kura et al. have taken to calling it) and also on account of the character based writing systems (which made attaining functional literacy much more difficult than with alphabetic systems).

    In modern times, relative wealth levels would play a greater part, first because scientific research itself has become much more capital intensive (e.g. theoretical physics need billion-dollar colliders), second because less wealthy countries have less of an incentive to develop new tech/science and more of an incentive to focus on catching up/copying.

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    • Replies: @JayMan

    The thing is you don’t really need “clannishness” to explain any of this (except insofar as in extreme inbreeding cases it begins to greatly lower overall IQ leading to much smaller smart fractions).
     
    It's pretty clear that clannishness correlates with the abstract vs. holistic world.

    Ancient Greeks did a lot of abstract thinking, and produced the greatest cultural/scientific peak until the Renaissance (according to the same Charles Murray’s figures).
     
    Ancient Greeks were quite different than modern Greeks. And how clannish were the ancients?

    During the Middle Ages, in pure scientific terms, the Islamic world was most advanced.
     
    It wasn't the Arabs making those discoveries. And it also didn't last long, for some reason.

    The Renaissance began in northern Italy. Only in the 17th century did the bulk of scientific discoveries move to NW Europe.
     
    In the definition HBD Chick and I use, and as should be make abundantly clear by the maps, Northern Italy = NW Europe. "NW Europe" here refers to the region enclosed by the Hajnal line.

    North Italians are not Middle Easterners in the clannishness department, but they are most certainly not Englishmen or Swedes either.
     
    Yes, that's something this post should make clear. Degrees...

    The Swedes at that time however were about 1% literate (can’t have much literacy in a low-density, rural environment at that level of development) whereas the literacy rate in Renaissance Italy was more like 20%.
     
    I think HBD Chick well covered that the Scandinavians were late-comers to the WEIRDO world, but they came with a vengeance when they did. Apparently, there was a period of intense selection for WEIRDO-ness in Scandinavia.

    Scientific creativity is much more likely a simple function of smart fractions * literacy race,
     
    Nope. This post makes it clear that that position is untenable.

    In modern times, relative wealth levels would play a greater part
     
    Two words: East Asia (relative wealth roughly the same in Japan, for example). And besides, where does relative wealth come from?
  13. The analysis slightly exxagerates the differences. For example, you counted Polon and Rad as French, not as French-Polish (Maria Skłodowska-Curie was Polish). I wonder how people like Czochralski or other are counted; or those Polish-born, who were then Germanised.

    Quite a few my students are leaving Poland. They are all hired by google, microsoft and other companies. All their successes (patents and so on) will be contributed to NW european countries.

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    • Replies: @JayMan

    The analysis slightly exxagerates the differences. For example, you counted Polon and Rad as French, not as French-Polish (Maria Skłodowska-Curie was Polish). I wonder how people like Czochralski or other are counted; or those Polish-born, who were then Germanised.
     
    When country of origin and country of operation differ, both countries get a count.
  14. “For the ending theme, one interesting exercise in the contrast between abstract and holistic thinking is to compare German classical music with Italian operas. The contrast between mechanistic structure in one and emotion and human interest concerns in the other is fascinating.”

    Interesting.

    Do you have any thoughts on people or what is involved with liking jazz versus blues (well I guess music derived from blues)?

    In my experience people tend to like one or the other, with blues derived stuff being a lot more popular.

    I will say that “musicians” seem to really like jazz. A lot more than the general population. (And yeah I don’t care for jazz honestly.)

    Don’t know if this fits into any of of your framework, but I’ve noticed this a long time. I’ve never seen it discussed anywhere, though I don’t exactly scour the web for that sort of thing.

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    • Replies: @Seneca
    As a dedicated but amateur jazz musician (who has preformed with some great jazz musicians over the years) I have noticed this also and thought about it a little.

    In my opinion because jazz involves rapid musical improvisation, most other musicians who play an instrument either can appreciate or admire a good jazz performance. They can appreciate how difficult it is and marvel at the performer. It's akin to watching a great athlete improvise, but instead you are "listening" instead of watching. The effect of a great soloist can be hypnotic, to those well versed enough in the language of music to appreciate what he is doing.

    If you think of music as a language, then non- musicians or casual listeners simply often cannot process complex musical information. They don't understand or are not familiar enough with the language to appreciate what is being communicated or its subtleties. Thus, jazz improvisation (particularly the more complex kinds) simply sounds like noise or nothing special to the average non-musician.

    To be sure I have met jazz fans who are not musicians or do not have a musical background, but in my experience they seem less common.
  15. […] Clannishness – The Series: Zigzag Lightning in the Brain – The Unz Review […]

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  16. Oh God, what’s next, are y0u going to start measuring skull sizes? Are you going to make a diktat that each person must show at least 3 generations of acceptable parentage before they can be declared righteous? Didn’t we go thru this once? This piece is a, as usual, sloppily put together re-re-re-re-declaration of the “Master Race”. Sorry, Jayman, but I’ve heard that one before.

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    • Replies: @JayMan

    Oh God, what’s next, are y0u going to start measuring skull sizes?
     
    See: Racist Brain

    Next time come back with objective evidence or be banned.

  17. @jimmyriddle
    If I am reading the first diagram correctly, Russia is more inbred than Pakistan ( a country where first-cousin marriage is the norm). That seems suspect. Also the Irish IQ seems low - e.g.lower than Zambia. I don't believe that at all.

    I am reading the first diagram correctly, Russia is more inbred than Pakistan ( a country where first-cousin marriage is the norm).

    The axes added by me represent a general trend, not an definitive scale. Russia is not more inbred than Pakistan, but it is more so than those on the right side of the plot.

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    • Replies: @siberiancat
    Weird, and against common sense. I hail from Russia, and don't remember a single instance of even second cousin marriage amongst my friends and relatives.
    First cousin marriages, as far as I know, are disapproved by the Orthodox Church.
    , @Hugo
    Can we agree to stop using Nobel Prizes as an indicator of intelligence. It's horribly misleading. It's like using American Idol winners to declare those with musical talent.
  18. Science is based on objective measurement. Without IQ test or academic tests, our perception of some’s intelligence is often false.

    When analysis is based on subjective perception, the conclusion is at best speculation at worse delusion.

    Is clannishness an objectively measurable? My own experience with such behavior is based on SES. Low SES, more clannish behavior. With increased material wealth, people have more personal space, more individualistic behavior.

    Regarding Nobel Prize, it is totally subjective process by some people. If your mom is on the committee, you always win.

    “My mom said I am the best” – Nobel prize.

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    • Replies: @JayMan

    Is clannishness an objectively measurable?
     
    Here:

    (Note: the above links are here for a reason. Before commenting about confusion about something I talk about here, try checking to see if it was discussed in the above.)
     

    Regarding Nobel Prize, it is totally subjective process by some people. If your mom is on the committee, you always win.

    “My mom said I am the best” – Nobel prize.
     

    Is scientific output per capita subjective, too?
  19. @Lion of the Judah-sphere
    Great post! And interesting comments to start off...

    Even among the Northwestern countries, the more Germanic countries stand ahead of the rest.

    Pretty much. Even the parts of Italy and France that are highly productive also happen to be more Germanic (or Teutonic) culturally.

    What is responsible for this pattern? Kura, te Nijenhuis, and Dutton blame the difference on a composite of novelty-seeking, social anxiety, fear of exclusion, and individualism.

    Seems almost obvious at this point, especially to those of us who have been around both groups.

    For one, I’m not sure we can say Northwestern Europeans are the most creative people in the world. Blacks have demonstrated substantial creativity, particularly in music and entertainment.

    I would argue that blacks' "creativity" is mostly a function of their high extroversion. In the fields where they predominate, like popular music and comedy, they tend to specialize in certain areas: in popular music, mostly improvisational (jazz) or syncopated dance music (R&B, hip-hop). Of course, you don't see see too many in Swedish death metal. In comedy, usually stand-up. On the flip-side the number of great black composers or movie producers/directors, or even script writers, is fairly limited.

    I would argue that black creativity represents a more evolutionarily "familiar" form of creativity compared to the more novel form found in whites, which tends to more complex art forms and science.

    Essentially, research pioneered by Richard Nisbett found that “Westerners” (all Northwestern European in descent) tend to group the flower with group B, while “Easterners” (East Asians) group the flower with group A.

    Have his book. Took me a while to understand 1) Nisbett's argument that East Asians consider situational factors more while Westerners consider personality factors more but 2) Westerners still support liberal social policies. It's because Westerners assume everyone (or most) are governed by guilt.

    I’ll argue that development of the Northwestern European penchant for abstraction is directly responsible (among other traits) for the Scientific and Industrial Revolutions.

    Sounds plausible.

    Now, some may be wondering the following: East Asians are known for mathematic ability, and indeed, they do seem to posses higher average mathematic ability than NW Europeans. And math is perhaps the most abstract matter there is (with good reason, I believe).

    Anyone that's been on tech research university campus lately notices the overwhelming number of Asians compared to whites.

    one thing that abstract thinking is NOT all that good for is understanding people.

    If you think about people abstractly through the lens of behavioral genetics, you can get a pretty good understanding of them. Not so much through Freudian psychology or post-modernism.

    Indeed, there’s a fairly good correlation between Nobels per capita and the fraction Muslim in the country

    Interesting!

    By contrast, in WEIRDO societies, excessive abstraction is common, particularly when it comes to people (example: all of libertarianism).

    Interesting. But an aspect of libertarianism seems somewhat clannish. They're less concerned about public good, and they praise the Virtue of Selfishness, to use Ayn Rand's motto.

    As a final note: you've laid out brilliantly that Westerners = reductionistic, and Easterners = holistic. But what explains Westerners fascination with Eastern holism since the 1960s, particularly among those high in openness? (in the form of Eastern religion, New Age, systems theory, vegetarianism, etc.)

    Oh, second final note: This all makes perfect sense, but it would be good get to get as much data as possible to back up your assertions (which you've done a lot already); people will claim that you're inventing ad-hoc reasons for East Asian weakness in sciences despite their higher intelligence. And then they'll say you're raaaaay-cist!

    Third final note: One area where Asians are definitely more creative is animation!

    For one, I’m not sure we can say Northwestern Europeans are the most creative people in the world. Blacks have demonstrated substantial creativity, particularly in music and entertainment.

    I would argue that blacks’ “creativity” is mostly a function of their high extroversion. In the fields where they predominate, like popular music and comedy, they tend to specialize in certain areas: in popular music, mostly improvisational (jazz) or syncopated dance music (R&B, hip-hop).

    I don’t think it’s simply a matter of extroversion.

    Of course, you don’t see see too many in Swedish death metal.

    About that (almost added this to the post):

    Same pattern as the rest. I know some fool out there will claim that the way to win more Nobel prizes is to listen to more heavy metal.

    As a final note: you’ve laid out brilliantly that Westerners = reductionistic, and Easterners = holistic. But what explains Westerners fascination with Eastern holism since the 1960s, particularly among those high in openness? (in the form of Eastern religion, New Age, systems theory, vegetarianism, etc.)

    Yup.

    Oh, second final note: This all makes perfect sense, but it would be good get to get as much data as possible to back up your assertions (which you’ve done a lot already); people will claim that you’re inventing ad-hoc reasons for East Asian weakness in sciences despite their higher intelligence. And then they’ll say you’re raaaaay-cist!

    The data speak for themselves.

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    • Replies: @Lion of the Judah-sphere
    I don't think black creativity is only extroversion, but that's definitely a big part of it. I could pull an evo psych explanation out of my ass about blacks undergoing sexual selection in Africa which made them better dancers and singers, but that's all just speculation.

    And can you clarify a little more why Western openness now makes them holists, particularly since the 1960s? (although Western holism can probably be traced back further to American transcendentalism and German Idealism)

    Lastly, you seem to want to want to reduce all cultural variation to clannish vs. non-clannish, but as you know, there's significant variation among clannish peoples. The clannish shame cultures of East Asia are just as far away from the clannish honor cultures of West Asia, Africa, and Latin America as they are from the guilt cultures of western Europe. I hope you talk about that a little more.
    , @Reg Cæsar
    The flip side of Nordic death metal is the utterly poppish quality of Scandinavian orchestral music: Grieg, Alfvén, Nielsen, Halvorsen, the Swedish-American Leroy Anderson. Sibelius was part-Swede as well. Very easy listening.

    The pop music scene also produced ABBA, Roxette, Ace of Base, a-ha and the like. The folk songs can be quite dark-- or nursery-rhymy.

    It's almost as if manic-depression is their musical template. The normally comic, goofball Harry Nilsson, another Swedish-American, had his biggest hit in "Without You", which sounded, ironically, far more suicidal than the Badfinger original.
    , @unpc downunder
    Oddly enough heavy metal seems to have become something of a middle class nerd/bohemian thing - it also seems to haved cross-fertilised alot with the upper middle class nerd world of progressive rock. The working class tend to prefer classic heavy rock like ACDC, while lower middle classic web designers listen to Opeth and Dream Theater.
  20. @Anonymous

    Nonetheless, the Fields Medal statistics clearly show East Asians (and Eastern Europeans) lagging well behind NW Europeans in top accomplishments. This confirms that their worse Nobel performance isn’t just due to institutional barriers or other social limitation, but lower ability to make novel advancements.
     
    Ashkenazim surpass NW Europeans on these sorts of measures. Also, abstract and scientific thinking goes back to the ancient Greeks. The origin of many extant sciences is credited to Aristotle, and the kind of mathematized model building that characterizes modern science is present in Hellenistic Greece and Near East. No historians of science credit science to NW Europeans. It's credited to Mediterranean populations.

    lso, abstract and scientific thinking goes back to the ancient Greeks. The origin of many extant sciences is credited to Aristotle, and the kind of mathematized model building that characterizes modern science is present in Hellenistic Greece and Near East.

    NOTE TO FUTURE COMMENTERS: EVOLUTION GOES FASTER THAN YOU THINK! I’m tired of going over this point. Non-clannish peoples appear to have evolved before (certain Greeks perhaps, and Romans). But they have since changed (and in the case of Northern Italians, changed back).

    No historians of science credit science to NW Europeans.

    There is no question that modern science is a NW European invention.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous

    NOTE TO FUTURE COMMENTERS: EVOLUTION GOES FASTER THAN YOU THINK! I’m tired of going over this point. Non-clannish peoples appear to have evolved before (certain Greeks perhaps, and Romans). But they have since changed (and in the case of Northern Italians, changed back).
     
    It seems like you're trying to force things to fit the theory, with the examples and data changing back and forth when necessary to maintain the theory.

    There is no question that modern science is a NW European invention.
     
    Historians of science don't attribute science to NW Europeans. And it's hard to do so if you read the writings of early NW European scientists, or rather philosophers and "natural philosophers" as they were known.

    Maybe you are making a semantic point? How do you define "modern science"?
  21. @Anonymous


    By contrast, in WEIRDO societies, excessive abstraction is common, particularly when it comes to people (example: all of libertarianism). NW Euro liberals are susceptible to this naive abstraction about people


    Aren't many of libertarianism's leading lights Jewish?- Hayek, Friedman, Rand, Caplan, etc. Aren't Jewish people (historically) more clannish than NW Euros? Does it make sense to include them as a NW Euro group, when the evidence shows they're 50-50 ME/Italian origin? What explains this discrepancy- libertarianism's appeal to a clannish group?

    Aren’t Jewish people (historically) more clannish than NW Euros?

    Ashkenazis are a type of in-betweener group. They have both clannish and WEIRDO attributes (and then, Western Ashkenazis may be less than clannish Eastern Ashkenazis are.)

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    • Replies: @Mike Smiddy

    Ashkenazis are a type of in-betweener group. They have both clannish and WEIRDO attributes (and then, Western Ashkenazis may be less than clannish Eastern Ashkenazis are.)
     
    That would make sense, as their history seems to follow cycles of inbreeding and outbreeding. For example, the Radhanites of the Dark Ages, the theorized founding population of Ashkenazim, surely had the means to outbreed like crazy. Indeed we find everything from and between "NW Euro" to East Asian in their ancestry.

    I feel like too many, when it comes to Ashkenazi Jews, focus too much on their history of inbreeding, while overlooking what's most unique about Ashkenazi breeding patterns historically (in that it is the combination/fluctuation of the two which makes them such an outlier in so many regards).

    When you look at the Dark Ages, all the way up to Russia, its almost as if they (the Ashkenazi) were a eugenically globalized man (which correlates with individualism obviously), of sorts, and then duplicated via heavy inbreeding, in spurts (to put it crudely). I find it extremely fascinating, unfortunately I haven't seen HBD chick talking much about it specifically, would you happen to know of a source?

    Furthermore, it is interesting how the Wasp historically spread physical disease, and the Ashkenazi ideological, yet egalitarianism, at least relatively and generally speaking, seems to only come and go with the former. That is a whole nother discussion though I'm sure.
  22. @Wizard of Oz
    At first glance the idea that clannishness is opposed to high trust invites questions. After all family and clan require trust and punishment of betrayal of trust to get the benefit out of belonging to the clan.

    So, to start with, is even the presumption of trust and loyalty within the clan incorrect? Are the dynamics of large families, and even larger much extended clannish families, such as to produce friction, tension and dislike?

    I guess that all that is being said is that the modern individualistic peoples eventually based their work and lives on activities which required interactions well beyond the family and clan and that only those able to learn and adopt ways that were conducive to trust and honest dealings thrived.

    At first glance the idea that clannishness is opposed to high trust invites questions. After all family and clan require trust and punishment of betrayal of trust to get the benefit out of belonging to the clan.

    So, to start with, is even the presumption of trust and loyalty within the clan incorrect?

    This is why I put the note to read the links in the beginning of the post. But yes, in clannish societies, there is generally high trust within the clan, but lower trust between clans.

    Are the dynamics of large families, and even larger much extended clannish families, such as to produce friction, tension and dislike?

    Well clannish people tend to be more antagonistic and aggressive, so family life is often more acrimonious than in WEIRDO families just for that reason.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    Thanks and apologies for not having done my prescribed homework.
    , @Wizard of Oz
    Sorry to take advantage of this thread to come back late with a question that was just prompted by considering whether some very smart and successful Jewish friends of mine were "clannish".

    Einstein had no problem with "tribe" and "tribal" when referring to Jews so I am tempted to assume that you would agree that Jews are notably clannish. How does that fit in with your thesis about the consequences of North Western Europeans shedding their clannishness and the undeniable Jewish individual achievements in science, banking, mathematics, literature and scholarship of every kind?
  23. @Anatoly Karlin
    The thing is you don't really need "clannishness" to explain any of this (except insofar as in extreme inbreeding cases it begins to greatly lower overall IQ leading to much smaller smart fractions).

    Ancient Greeks did a lot of abstract thinking, and produced the greatest cultural/scientific peak until the Renaissance (according to the same Charles Murray's figures). During the Middle Ages, in pure scientific terms, the Islamic world was most advanced. The Renaissance began in northern Italy. Only in the 17th century did the bulk of scientific discoveries move to NW Europe.

    North Italians are not Middle Easterners in the clannishness department, but they are most certainly not Englishmen or Swedes either. The Swedes at that time however were about 1% literate (can't have much literacy in a low-density, rural environment at that level of development) whereas the literacy rate in Renaissance Italy was more like 20%.

    Scientific creativity is much more likely a simple function of smart fractions * literacy race, with East Asians needing a downwards adjustment on account of lower curiosity (or "q factor" as Kura et al. have taken to calling it) and also on account of the character based writing systems (which made attaining functional literacy much more difficult than with alphabetic systems).

    In modern times, relative wealth levels would play a greater part, first because scientific research itself has become much more capital intensive (e.g. theoretical physics need billion-dollar colliders), second because less wealthy countries have less of an incentive to develop new tech/science and more of an incentive to focus on catching up/copying.

    The thing is you don’t really need “clannishness” to explain any of this (except insofar as in extreme inbreeding cases it begins to greatly lower overall IQ leading to much smaller smart fractions).

    It’s pretty clear that clannishness correlates with the abstract vs. holistic world.

    Ancient Greeks did a lot of abstract thinking, and produced the greatest cultural/scientific peak until the Renaissance (according to the same Charles Murray’s figures).

    Ancient Greeks were quite different than modern Greeks. And how clannish were the ancients?

    During the Middle Ages, in pure scientific terms, the Islamic world was most advanced.

    It wasn’t the Arabs making those discoveries. And it also didn’t last long, for some reason.

    The Renaissance began in northern Italy. Only in the 17th century did the bulk of scientific discoveries move to NW Europe.

    In the definition HBD Chick and I use, and as should be make abundantly clear by the maps, Northern Italy = NW Europe. “NW Europe” here refers to the region enclosed by the Hajnal line.

    North Italians are not Middle Easterners in the clannishness department, but they are most certainly not Englishmen or Swedes either.

    Yes, that’s something this post should make clear. Degrees…

    The Swedes at that time however were about 1% literate (can’t have much literacy in a low-density, rural environment at that level of development) whereas the literacy rate in Renaissance Italy was more like 20%.

    I think HBD Chick well covered that the Scandinavians were late-comers to the WEIRDO world, but they came with a vengeance when they did. Apparently, there was a period of intense selection for WEIRDO-ness in Scandinavia.

    Scientific creativity is much more likely a simple function of smart fractions * literacy race,

    Nope. This post makes it clear that that position is untenable.

    In modern times, relative wealth levels would play a greater part

    Two words: East Asia (relative wealth roughly the same in Japan, for example). And besides, where does relative wealth come from?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous

    It’s pretty clear that clannishness correlates with the abstract vs. holistic world.
     
    There are basically 4 traditions of philosophy in the world: Western, Islamic, Hindu, and Chinese. Jewish philosophy could be considered a distinct tradition, or as a subset of Western and Islamic philosophy.

    Western, Islamic, and Jewish philosophy are all based on Greek philosophy. They are all characterized by abstract though. Hindu philosophy is not directly founded on Greek philosophy, but has a logic and grammarian tradition, and is characterized by abstraction. All of these traditions are basically abstract in nature and could be classed together.

    The only holistic tradition is Chinese philosophy. There are arguably only two distinct classes of philosophy: "Greek" philosophy which encompasses all the abstract traditions, and the Chinese , which is the only holistic philosophy.

    I'm not sure how well this would correlate with the "clannishness" dimension, however, if the Islamic and Indian cultures are more clannish than the Sinitic.
    , @Max Payne

    It wasn’t the Arabs making those discoveries. And it also didn’t last long, for some reason.
     
    The Mongol invasions and the fall of Baghdad pretty much halted all progress in science as Genghis Khan decided to shoot his genes everywhere.
    , @Anatoly Karlin

    It’s pretty clear that clannishness correlates with the abstract vs. holistic world.
     
    No, that's not clear at all.

    Nisbett himself portrays it as a Europe vs. East Asia difference. As the anonymous fellow below points out, both Islamic and Indic civilizations tend towards the abstract end of the spectrum, despite being far more clannish than East Asian peoples (whose real level of clannishness you frankly overstate: East Asians punish antisocial behavior almost to the same extent as do Hajnal Europeans; the level of everyday corruption in Japan, Korea, and even China is far closer to Hajnal European levels than to India or any random country in the Middle East; etc).

    What is another personality trait, however, that could explain a preference for holistic as opposed to abstract thinking? Curiosity - which has now thanks to Kura et al. been shown to be likely systemically lower amongst Mongoloids vs. Caucasoids by one or two S.D.'s.

    It wasn’t the Arabs making those discoveries. And it also didn’t last long, for some reason.
     
    Ibn Khaldun was as Arab as they come.

    Anyway, excessive inbreeding causes IQ drops. IQ drops = ever tinier smart fractions = scientific progress stops. After Islam inbreeding increased, IQ must have gradually dropped over the centuries, and so the Islamic Golden Age ended.

    This IQ drop would be enough to explain it, clannishness per se is superfluous.

    In the definition HBD Chick and I use, and as should be make abundantly clear by the maps, Northern Italy = NW Europe. “NW Europe” here refers to the region enclosed by the Hajnal line... I think HBD Chick well covered that the Scandinavians were late-comers to the WEIRDO world, but they came with a vengeance when they did.
     
    The Protestant Reformation was associated with northern revulsion against the perceived corruption and politicking of the Catholic Church. Southerners tended to be okay with that - they didn't turn Protestant, at any rate - whereas northerners almost universally turned Catholic. To this extent, northerners were already WEIRDer than southern Europeans, including northern Italians.

    Another marker frequently used in the HBDsphere to proxy clannishness is murder/violence rates. Renaissance Italy was extremely violent. Most likely so was Ancient Greece. Ancient Rome we know certainly was (see Apuleius' The Golden Ass). Nonetheless, it was orders of magnitude more scientifically productive than Scandinavia.

    Why? Most likely because in 1500 Scandinavians were 99% illiterate hicks, while 20-25% of Northern Italians were literate townsmen, merchants, etc.

    Nope. This post makes it clear that that position is untenable.
     
    Just to make it clear: You believe that a society with 1% literacy versus a society with 20% literacy is no big deal when it comes to scientific creativity?
    , @Anonymous

    It wasn’t the Arabs making those discoveries.
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alhazen

    Not arabs eh?

    Just because black people are the only group to not really invent anything (except for the NAACP and dumping ones child on others for care) doesn't mean you have to group the rest.
  24. @szopen
    The analysis slightly exxagerates the differences. For example, you counted Polon and Rad as French, not as French-Polish (Maria Skłodowska-Curie was Polish). I wonder how people like Czochralski or other are counted; or those Polish-born, who were then Germanised.

    Quite a few my students are leaving Poland. They are all hired by google, microsoft and other companies. All their successes (patents and so on) will be contributed to NW european countries.

    The analysis slightly exxagerates the differences. For example, you counted Polon and Rad as French, not as French-Polish (Maria Skłodowska-Curie was Polish). I wonder how people like Czochralski or other are counted; or those Polish-born, who were then Germanised.

    When country of origin and country of operation differ, both countries get a count.

    Read More
  25. @AG
    Science is based on objective measurement. Without IQ test or academic tests, our perception of some's intelligence is often false.

    When analysis is based on subjective perception, the conclusion is at best speculation at worse delusion.

    Is clannishness an objectively measurable? My own experience with such behavior is based on SES. Low SES, more clannish behavior. With increased material wealth, people have more personal space, more individualistic behavior.

    Regarding Nobel Prize, it is totally subjective process by some people. If your mom is on the committee, you always win.

    "My mom said I am the best" - Nobel prize.

    Is clannishness an objectively measurable?

    Here:

    (Note: the above links are here for a reason. Before commenting about confusion about something I talk about here, try checking to see if it was discussed in the above.)

    Regarding Nobel Prize, it is totally subjective process by some people. If your mom is on the committee, you always win.

    “My mom said I am the best” – Nobel prize.

    Is scientific output per capita subjective, too?

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  26. @Flower
    Oh God, what's next, are y0u going to start measuring skull sizes? Are you going to make a diktat that each person must show at least 3 generations of acceptable parentage before they can be declared righteous? Didn't we go thru this once? This piece is a, as usual, sloppily put together re-re-re-re-declaration of the "Master Race". Sorry, Jayman, but I've heard that one before.

    Oh God, what’s next, are y0u going to start measuring skull sizes?

    See: Racist Brain

    Next time come back with objective evidence or be banned.

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  27. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @JayMan

    lso, abstract and scientific thinking goes back to the ancient Greeks. The origin of many extant sciences is credited to Aristotle, and the kind of mathematized model building that characterizes modern science is present in Hellenistic Greece and Near East.
     
    NOTE TO FUTURE COMMENTERS: EVOLUTION GOES FASTER THAN YOU THINK! I'm tired of going over this point. Non-clannish peoples appear to have evolved before (certain Greeks perhaps, and Romans). But they have since changed (and in the case of Northern Italians, changed back).

    No historians of science credit science to NW Europeans.
     
    There is no question that modern science is a NW European invention.

    NOTE TO FUTURE COMMENTERS: EVOLUTION GOES FASTER THAN YOU THINK! I’m tired of going over this point. Non-clannish peoples appear to have evolved before (certain Greeks perhaps, and Romans). But they have since changed (and in the case of Northern Italians, changed back).

    It seems like you’re trying to force things to fit the theory, with the examples and data changing back and forth when necessary to maintain the theory.

    There is no question that modern science is a NW European invention.

    Historians of science don’t attribute science to NW Europeans. And it’s hard to do so if you read the writings of early NW European scientists, or rather philosophers and “natural philosophers” as they were known.

    Maybe you are making a semantic point? How do you define “modern science”?

    Read More
    • Replies: @JayMan

    It seems like you’re trying to force things to fit the theory, with the examples and data changing back and forth when necessary to maintain the theory.
     
    Actually, I know a thing or two about history, and I understand the breeder's equation

    Historians of science don’t attribute science to NW Europeans
     
    The data say otherwise.
  28. Indeed, it was Northwestern Europeans that gave us science as we know it. Northwestern Europeans brought about the Scientific and Industrial Revolutions and continue to be at the forefront of discovery to

    Science is based on mathmatics and that began in the middle east in the 7th century. The two oldest universities are in Turkey and Iraq. Algerbra is an Arab term. The concept of zero is Arabic. You aren’t going to get to the moon using Roman numerals.

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    • Disagree: Wizard of Oz
    • Replies: @JayMan

    Science is based on mathmatics and that began in the middle east in the 7th century. The two oldest universities are in Turkey and Iraq. Algerbra is an Arab term. The concept of zero is Arabic. You aren’t going to get to the moon using Roman numerals.
     
    When there is information from previous sources available, it will be utilized by future people. Knowledge is cumulative. But modern Western science doesn't form a direct continuity with the Islamic golden age.

    All that is besides the point anyway. What trajectory those societies follow since that time?

    , @John Carr
    Science is based on mathmatics and that began in the middle east in the 7th century. The two oldest universities are in Turkey and Iraq. Algerbra is an Arab term. The concept of zero is Arabic. You aren’t going to get to the moon using Roman numerals.

    By the 7th century Euclid's Elements was in use as a textbook for a thousand years and maths is far older.
    Madrasas aren't universities. Madrasas issue ijazahs for sharia. Medieval Christian universities were legally autonomous corporate entities, giving degrees in different subjects, that evolved from cathedral schools that pre-date Islam. Some madrasas became universities in the 20th century.
    Algebra is an Arabic term. It describes a branch of maths going back to the Sumerians and brought to a new level by Diophantus ("the father of algebra") and Brahmagupta (the first person to give the rules for computing with zero) before al-Khwārizmī was born.
    The concept of zero as number is Indian.
    You aren't going to improve things by deluding yourself.
  29. @Anonymous

    NOTE TO FUTURE COMMENTERS: EVOLUTION GOES FASTER THAN YOU THINK! I’m tired of going over this point. Non-clannish peoples appear to have evolved before (certain Greeks perhaps, and Romans). But they have since changed (and in the case of Northern Italians, changed back).
     
    It seems like you're trying to force things to fit the theory, with the examples and data changing back and forth when necessary to maintain the theory.

    There is no question that modern science is a NW European invention.
     
    Historians of science don't attribute science to NW Europeans. And it's hard to do so if you read the writings of early NW European scientists, or rather philosophers and "natural philosophers" as they were known.

    Maybe you are making a semantic point? How do you define "modern science"?

    It seems like you’re trying to force things to fit the theory, with the examples and data changing back and forth when necessary to maintain the theory.

    Actually, I know a thing or two about history, and I understand the breeder’s equation

    Historians of science don’t attribute science to NW Europeans

    The data say otherwise.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Possible counter-examples and historical discrepancies seem to be casually hand waved away or altered to maintain the theory.

    Which data or definition of science do you have in mind? It's not clear to me how you could read the many histories of science and thought, as well as the writings of early NW European philosophers and natural philosophers, and conclude that science was only invented 3 or 4 hundred years ago in NW Europe.
  30. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @JayMan

    The thing is you don’t really need “clannishness” to explain any of this (except insofar as in extreme inbreeding cases it begins to greatly lower overall IQ leading to much smaller smart fractions).
     
    It's pretty clear that clannishness correlates with the abstract vs. holistic world.

    Ancient Greeks did a lot of abstract thinking, and produced the greatest cultural/scientific peak until the Renaissance (according to the same Charles Murray’s figures).
     
    Ancient Greeks were quite different than modern Greeks. And how clannish were the ancients?

    During the Middle Ages, in pure scientific terms, the Islamic world was most advanced.
     
    It wasn't the Arabs making those discoveries. And it also didn't last long, for some reason.

    The Renaissance began in northern Italy. Only in the 17th century did the bulk of scientific discoveries move to NW Europe.
     
    In the definition HBD Chick and I use, and as should be make abundantly clear by the maps, Northern Italy = NW Europe. "NW Europe" here refers to the region enclosed by the Hajnal line.

    North Italians are not Middle Easterners in the clannishness department, but they are most certainly not Englishmen or Swedes either.
     
    Yes, that's something this post should make clear. Degrees...

    The Swedes at that time however were about 1% literate (can’t have much literacy in a low-density, rural environment at that level of development) whereas the literacy rate in Renaissance Italy was more like 20%.
     
    I think HBD Chick well covered that the Scandinavians were late-comers to the WEIRDO world, but they came with a vengeance when they did. Apparently, there was a period of intense selection for WEIRDO-ness in Scandinavia.

    Scientific creativity is much more likely a simple function of smart fractions * literacy race,
     
    Nope. This post makes it clear that that position is untenable.

    In modern times, relative wealth levels would play a greater part
     
    Two words: East Asia (relative wealth roughly the same in Japan, for example). And besides, where does relative wealth come from?

    It’s pretty clear that clannishness correlates with the abstract vs. holistic world.

    There are basically 4 traditions of philosophy in the world: Western, Islamic, Hindu, and Chinese. Jewish philosophy could be considered a distinct tradition, or as a subset of Western and Islamic philosophy.

    Western, Islamic, and Jewish philosophy are all based on Greek philosophy. They are all characterized by abstract though. Hindu philosophy is not directly founded on Greek philosophy, but has a logic and grammarian tradition, and is characterized by abstraction. All of these traditions are basically abstract in nature and could be classed together.

    The only holistic tradition is Chinese philosophy. There are arguably only two distinct classes of philosophy: “Greek” philosophy which encompasses all the abstract traditions, and the Chinese , which is the only holistic philosophy.

    I’m not sure how well this would correlate with the “clannishness” dimension, however, if the Islamic and Indian cultures are more clannish than the Sinitic.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Lion of the Judah-sphere
    Hello Jayman,

    Yes, I know my last post was silly oversimplification.

    Can you respond to post #31? Nisbett claims that Jewish/Yiddish philosophy is closer to the Chinese than European, but as Anon. states, Arabic and Indian philosophy shared more in common with European than Chinese philosophy. And as some other commenters have stated, mathematics was significantly advanced by Arabs (in actuality, more like Persians) and Indians. Although Nisbett states that algebra was more of an East Asian trait than European one, as the latter mastered geometry first.

    Is holism a continuous trait, with those closer China having more of it than others? Or do you think it is something unique to China, with other Asian culture closer to Europe in terms of thinking style? Does the honor culture of Arabic peoples have anything to do with their (overstated) contributions to philosophy/science, and with their style of cognition?
  31. @JayMan

    The thing is you don’t really need “clannishness” to explain any of this (except insofar as in extreme inbreeding cases it begins to greatly lower overall IQ leading to much smaller smart fractions).
     
    It's pretty clear that clannishness correlates with the abstract vs. holistic world.

    Ancient Greeks did a lot of abstract thinking, and produced the greatest cultural/scientific peak until the Renaissance (according to the same Charles Murray’s figures).
     
    Ancient Greeks were quite different than modern Greeks. And how clannish were the ancients?

    During the Middle Ages, in pure scientific terms, the Islamic world was most advanced.
     
    It wasn't the Arabs making those discoveries. And it also didn't last long, for some reason.

    The Renaissance began in northern Italy. Only in the 17th century did the bulk of scientific discoveries move to NW Europe.
     
    In the definition HBD Chick and I use, and as should be make abundantly clear by the maps, Northern Italy = NW Europe. "NW Europe" here refers to the region enclosed by the Hajnal line.

    North Italians are not Middle Easterners in the clannishness department, but they are most certainly not Englishmen or Swedes either.
     
    Yes, that's something this post should make clear. Degrees...

    The Swedes at that time however were about 1% literate (can’t have much literacy in a low-density, rural environment at that level of development) whereas the literacy rate in Renaissance Italy was more like 20%.
     
    I think HBD Chick well covered that the Scandinavians were late-comers to the WEIRDO world, but they came with a vengeance when they did. Apparently, there was a period of intense selection for WEIRDO-ness in Scandinavia.

    Scientific creativity is much more likely a simple function of smart fractions * literacy race,
     
    Nope. This post makes it clear that that position is untenable.

    In modern times, relative wealth levels would play a greater part
     
    Two words: East Asia (relative wealth roughly the same in Japan, for example). And besides, where does relative wealth come from?

    It wasn’t the Arabs making those discoveries. And it also didn’t last long, for some reason.

    The Mongol invasions and the fall of Baghdad pretty much halted all progress in science as Genghis Khan decided to shoot his genes everywhere.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AMVM
    The khorasani were a big part of the "muslim civilization", and they weren't arabs, and then there was Spain.
    Some of those of elites of muslim civilization were what you'd call liberal on religion, and others were downright atheists.
  32. @Biff

    Indeed, it was Northwestern Europeans that gave us science as we know it. Northwestern Europeans brought about the Scientific and Industrial Revolutions and continue to be at the forefront of discovery to
     
    Science is based on mathmatics and that began in the middle east in the 7th century. The two oldest universities are in Turkey and Iraq. Algerbra is an Arab term. The concept of zero is Arabic. You aren't going to get to the moon using Roman numerals.

    Science is based on mathmatics and that began in the middle east in the 7th century. The two oldest universities are in Turkey and Iraq. Algerbra is an Arab term. The concept of zero is Arabic. You aren’t going to get to the moon using Roman numerals.

    When there is information from previous sources available, it will be utilized by future people. Knowledge is cumulative. But modern Western science doesn’t form a direct continuity with the Islamic golden age.

    All that is besides the point anyway. What trajectory those societies follow since that time?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    I was surprised that you didn't ask what list of 10 fallacies he resorted to. Zero an "Arab" or "Arabic" concept? Try Indian or maybe Sumerian. Mathematics started in the 7th century (sic)!!! Anyway mathematics has nothing intrinsically to do with the scientific method or any empirical connection to the real world any more than the alphabet.

    Oldest universities? I was amused to see 1453 as the founding date on a university building in Istanbul but of course Bologna stakes the best claim in Europe at 1088 and there are lots of lists online - but not one I can find that gives plausibility to Biff's claims.

    As to the achievements of Islam's glory days it seems to be true that the Arabic of illiterates like the Prophet had become the language of learning and intellectual achievement but that was often the work of Christians and Jews. So..... Arabic, rather than Arab, and not necessarily Muslim.
  33. It’s a good piece of analysis worth discussing.

    From what I found is what happened to Greek ? The territory that mostly constitute southern Europeans and a bit of mixture from the Middle East? The time when Greek literature (Plato), science (Pythagoras) outperformed their neighboring countries in Europe? Greek must have looked at those Germanic tribes as barbaric, illiterate, waste-of-space population.

    What happened to Greek now? Defaulted their debt twice, frowned upon in Europe, Did Science and Literature disappear from the face of the Earth? Greek must be thinking once their achievement cannot be sustained, the ENTIRE world will become stagnant and go chaos. Did it actually happen?

    Europeans took the reins. What about Ashkenazi Jews? Small population but managed to control the direction of the US, economic, foreign, education policy? What are “White” NW Europeans doing then? Did they become “Obtuse” or “Stupid”?

    Then go back to 6th Century back when Europeans wiping their ass with communal brush, East Asians (Han Chinese) were using Toilet paper to finish their mass. What does that tell you? When Middle Kingdom Empire were living in a Palace, where were Europeans King living in? Stone Henge?

    What I found is this analysis has its own merit, but remember, you are only picking up the periods of time when NW Europeans contribute much to the development and advancement of human civilization. If you go back further than that, I’m sure NW Europeans will be fighting with polar bears, let alone composing classical music.

    Read More
    • Replies: @JayMan

    From what I found is what happened to Greek ? The territory that mostly constitute southern Europeans and a bit of mixture from the Middle East? The time when Greek literature (Plato), science (Pythagoras) outperformed their neighboring countries in Europe? Greek must have looked at those Germanic tribes as barbaric, illiterate, waste-of-space population.
     

    What I found is this analysis has its own merit, but remember, you are only picking up the periods of time when NW Europeans contribute much to the development and advancement of human civilization. If you go back further than that, I’m sure NW Europeans will be fighting with polar bears, let alone composing classical music.
     
    I edited the post to answer this question.
  34. HBD Chick is impossible for me to take seriously due to her obscene aversion to capitalization. For text messages or IMs such a typing style may be appropriate but no one above the age of 15 has any excuse to write thousand-word blog posts without a single capital letter. I am pretty sure I’m not alone in thinking this.

    Read More
    • Replies: @JayMan

    HBD Chick is impossible for me to take seriously due to her obscene aversion to capitalization.
     
    If you can't focus on the content of her writing, then maybe you are impossible for me to take seriously.
  35. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    The supposed IQ axis of the first map doesn’t make a lot of sense, even just as a correlation there are several countries which are put together but are at 5 or more IQ points of distance. I mean, Bulgaria and Denmark? Italy and Macedonia? Ireland and Zambia? Romania and Canada?

    Read More
    • Replies: @JayMan

    The supposed IQ axis of the first map doesn’t make a lot of sense, even just as a correlation
     
    See here

    Seriously.
  36. @JayMan

    I do not think white alienism is due to race, but due to religion—Christianity. Almost all nations that allow massive 3rd world immigration and other Jewish liberalism are certainly white, but, they are also Christian. The 3 Abrahamic faiths can make a sane man insane. I can’t explain this fully in this short space, except mention some interesting links here proving the pathology of Christianity.
     
    Where did Western Christianity come from?

    Not the North Sea/west of the Hajnal Line. That much is certain.

    What came from there: systematic methods for critique and analysis of religion, including the entire field of comparative myth and religion.

    Read More
    • Replies: @JayMan
    Me:

    Where did Western Christianity come from?
     
    You:

    Not the North Sea/west of the Hajnal Line. That much is certain.
     
    Really? You might want to read up on Martin Luther, for one.
  37. @Anonymous


    By contrast, in WEIRDO societies, excessive abstraction is common, particularly when it comes to people (example: all of libertarianism). NW Euro liberals are susceptible to this naive abstraction about people


    Aren't many of libertarianism's leading lights Jewish?- Hayek, Friedman, Rand, Caplan, etc. Aren't Jewish people (historically) more clannish than NW Euros? Does it make sense to include them as a NW Euro group, when the evidence shows they're 50-50 ME/Italian origin? What explains this discrepancy- libertarianism's appeal to a clannish group?

    Hayek wasn’t Jewish.

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  38. The flower example made me laugh. There is nothing about stem type that is less “superficial” than petal shape, presence of leaves or the type of core. Group A shares three features with the ungrouped flower and group B shares only one. There is no reason for those choosing group B to feel superior to those choosing group A. I say this as a decidedly NW European individual.

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  39. “Whites and to East Asians. Participants were asked to group two of the objects together. Westerners grouped the panda and the monkey (since they’re both animals). Easterners, on the other hand, grouped the monkey and the banana (since monkeys eat bananas).”

    Define your terms. Are “Whites” and “Westerners” interchangeable? Are “East Asians” necessarily non-White and non-Western? Do these results hold for all “Whites” or “East Asians?

    Very sloppy writing and thinking, Jay.

    Read More
    • Replies: @JayMan

    Define your terms. Are “Whites” and “Westerners” interchangeable? Are “East Asians” necessarily non-White and non-Western? Do these results hold for all “Whites” or “East Asians?
     
    You're one comment away from being banned. Let's see if you make it through to when I finish the comments queue.
  40. With all due respect, JayMan, I think you are given far too much freedom to indulge in your fact-free fantasies because you are black. And the quasi-white nationalists who populate this websites LOVE LOVE LOVE having a non-white man say how great they are, because it makes them feel like it is an objective fact.

    This post of yours is meandering, confusing, and composed mostly of ad-hoc rationalizations.

    “Prominent figures” in art and literature? Really? If you asked Chiang Kai Shek he would have rattled off a hundred neo-Confucians, and no Europeans. If you asked some Hindu fakir he would have spoken of the great imagery in the sanskrit poetry of some random dude, but would have never heard of Shakespeare. And if you ask a fat hairy feminist, she’s going to say the only worthy artists and writers were nasty post-60s lesbians like herself.

    Read Nassim Nicholas Taleb’s “Fooled by Randomness”, if you haven’t already. You are reading too much into some random patterns in history, and trying to draw grand conclusions from it. You just have a willing audience who will latch on to anything that confirms their belief in NW European genetic superiority, but don’t confuse it for science.

    You are the younger, cooler, edgier version of Thomas Sowell and Ben Carson – someone who gets more credit than they deserve, just because of their race. Same for HBD chick and gender. If a white guy wrote the same thing you two did, he would shrivel away, unknown, in an obscure corner of the internet.

    Europe’s achievements are perhaps, in part, biological, but they cannot be separated from the tremendous benefit that Europe’s unique cultural institutions supplied. And these cultural institutions were accidents of history, you can never prove that it was the Europeans’ special personalities that made them come up with liberalism and democracy. This sort of woolly-headed reasoning, completely unfalsifiable, is why evopsych gets a bad name among scientists.

    And the domino effect, of being close to a place where certain ideas sprung up, is not factored into your analysis either. Agriculture arose in the near east many millennia ago. It reached Europe and India very early, likely through diffusion. Agriculture arose in the Americas independently much, much later. That doesn’t say anything about the relative intelligence of the native Americans vs native Europeans and Indians, it was just an accident of history that the latter two cultures happened to be right next to the place where agriculture first flourished.

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    • Replies: @JayMan

    Europe’s achievements are perhaps, in part, biological, but they cannot be separated from the tremendous benefit that Europe’s unique cultural institutions supplied.
     
    WHERE THE FUCK DO CULTURAL INSTITUTIONS COME FROM?

    Why are the commenters to this entry so stupid?

  41. Very resourceful post. But it seems like everything one reads that contrasts Arab culture with Western culture, or Asian culture with Western culture, makes in a general way the point this post propounds. A hundred years ago, pouring over the manuscripts of Ernest Fenollosa, Ezra Pound began arguing for the supremacy of The Chinese Written Character as a Medium for Poetry, because the nature of ideograms is conducive to metaphorical thinking. For example, the ideogram for “green” is a picture of a tree, whereas the West will define “green” by going off into abstract arcana about light and retinas, etc. Still, it’s not clear to me that Asians have historically been conditioned to eschew abstract thinking, given the picture of the natural world that Buddhist theology paints, and I’m reminded of the Dali Lama’s interest in studying modern physics with a high regard to that end. The issue of empiricism supplanting rationalism as a method of science was a very literal debate that occurred among German philosophers in the late 18th century, and the outcome of that debate was much more an accident of history than anything to do with clannishness.

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  42. @Max Payne

    It wasn’t the Arabs making those discoveries. And it also didn’t last long, for some reason.
     
    The Mongol invasions and the fall of Baghdad pretty much halted all progress in science as Genghis Khan decided to shoot his genes everywhere.

    The khorasani were a big part of the “muslim civilization”, and they weren’t arabs, and then there was Spain.
    Some of those of elites of muslim civilization were what you’d call liberal on religion, and others were downright atheists.

    Read More
  43. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    You should sort out the IQ maps in this post. They contradict each other.

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    • Replies: @JayMan

    You should sort out the IQ maps in this post. They contradict each other.
     
    Look closer. And maybe read closer, too.
  44. @Sunbeam
    "For the ending theme, one interesting exercise in the contrast between abstract and holistic thinking is to compare German classical music with Italian operas. The contrast between mechanistic structure in one and emotion and human interest concerns in the other is fascinating."

    Interesting.

    Do you have any thoughts on people or what is involved with liking jazz versus blues (well I guess music derived from blues)?

    In my experience people tend to like one or the other, with blues derived stuff being a lot more popular.

    I will say that "musicians" seem to really like jazz. A lot more than the general population. (And yeah I don't care for jazz honestly.)

    Don't know if this fits into any of of your framework, but I've noticed this a long time. I've never seen it discussed anywhere, though I don't exactly scour the web for that sort of thing.

    As a dedicated but amateur jazz musician (who has preformed with some great jazz musicians over the years) I have noticed this also and thought about it a little.

    In my opinion because jazz involves rapid musical improvisation, most other musicians who play an instrument either can appreciate or admire a good jazz performance. They can appreciate how difficult it is and marvel at the performer. It’s akin to watching a great athlete improvise, but instead you are “listening” instead of watching. The effect of a great soloist can be hypnotic, to those well versed enough in the language of music to appreciate what he is doing.

    If you think of music as a language, then non- musicians or casual listeners simply often cannot process complex musical information. They don’t understand or are not familiar enough with the language to appreciate what is being communicated or its subtleties. Thus, jazz improvisation (particularly the more complex kinds) simply sounds like noise or nothing special to the average non-musician.

    To be sure I have met jazz fans who are not musicians or do not have a musical background, but in my experience they seem less common.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sunbeam
    Thanks that makes a lot of sense.

    Sounds like that may have been my problem with other things as well. I've tried reading things like Thomas Pynchon's stuff over the years. Usually I wind up chucking it against a wall and not finishing it. But I've probably read "A Princess of Mars"... twenty? thirty? times.
  45. Here is an observation from a Bell curve hump dweller. The creative whites are also the ones who tend to be lactose tolerant and red meat eaters. A coincidence? No clue.

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  46. @JayMan

    I am reading the first diagram correctly, Russia is more inbred than Pakistan ( a country where first-cousin marriage is the norm).
     
    The axes added by me represent a general trend, not an definitive scale. Russia is not more inbred than Pakistan, but it is more so than those on the right side of the plot.

    Weird, and against common sense. I hail from Russia, and don’t remember a single instance of even second cousin marriage amongst my friends and relatives.
    First cousin marriages, as far as I know, are disapproved by the Orthodox Church.

    Read More
    • Replies: @JayMan

    Weird, and against common sense. I hail from Russia, and don’t remember a single instance of even second cousin marriage amongst my friends and relatives.
    First cousin marriages, as far as I know, are disapproved by the Orthodox Church.
     
    mating patterns in medieval eastern europe | hbd chick

    In fact, see here for the whole list, for those who are curious: How Inbred are Europeans?

  47. I don’t believe you mention male-female differences anywhere. I suspect that the kind of technological innovation that produced high rates of GDP growth in much of the twentieth century in the developed world has been suffering in the last few decades in part because modern society is becoming more and more feminized (and hence more holistic in overall emphasis).

    Read More
    • Replies: @JayMan

    I suspect that the kind of technological innovation that produced high rates of GDP growth in much of the twentieth century in the developed world has been suffering in the last few decades in part because modern society is becoming more and more feminized
     
    I don't know if there's evidence for either of those claims.
  48. @Anonymous


    By contrast, in WEIRDO societies, excessive abstraction is common, particularly when it comes to people (example: all of libertarianism). NW Euro liberals are susceptible to this naive abstraction about people


    Aren't many of libertarianism's leading lights Jewish?- Hayek, Friedman, Rand, Caplan, etc. Aren't Jewish people (historically) more clannish than NW Euros? Does it make sense to include them as a NW Euro group, when the evidence shows they're 50-50 ME/Italian origin? What explains this discrepancy- libertarianism's appeal to a clannish group?

    Good observation. So is libertarianism’s militant cousin, neoconservatism.

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  49. @JayMan

    For one, I’m not sure we can say Northwestern Europeans are the most creative people in the world. Blacks have demonstrated substantial creativity, particularly in music and entertainment.

    I would argue that blacks’ “creativity” is mostly a function of their high extroversion. In the fields where they predominate, like popular music and comedy, they tend to specialize in certain areas: in popular music, mostly improvisational (jazz) or syncopated dance music (R&B, hip-hop).
     

    I don't think it's simply a matter of extroversion.

    Of course, you don’t see see too many in Swedish death metal.
     
    About that (almost added this to the post):

    https://twitter.com/JayMan471/statuses/508328358669987840

    Same pattern as the rest. I know some fool out there will claim that the way to win more Nobel prizes is to listen to more heavy metal.


    As a final note: you’ve laid out brilliantly that Westerners = reductionistic, and Easterners = holistic. But what explains Westerners fascination with Eastern holism since the 1960s, particularly among those high in openness? (in the form of Eastern religion, New Age, systems theory, vegetarianism, etc.)
     
    Yup.

    Oh, second final note: This all makes perfect sense, but it would be good get to get as much data as possible to back up your assertions (which you’ve done a lot already); people will claim that you’re inventing ad-hoc reasons for East Asian weakness in sciences despite their higher intelligence. And then they’ll say you’re raaaaay-cist!
     
    The data speak for themselves.

    I don’t think black creativity is only extroversion, but that’s definitely a big part of it. I could pull an evo psych explanation out of my ass about blacks undergoing sexual selection in Africa which made them better dancers and singers, but that’s all just speculation.

    And can you clarify a little more why Western openness now makes them holists, particularly since the 1960s? (although Western holism can probably be traced back further to American transcendentalism and German Idealism)

    Lastly, you seem to want to want to reduce all cultural variation to clannish vs. non-clannish, but as you know, there’s significant variation among clannish peoples. The clannish shame cultures of East Asia are just as far away from the clannish honor cultures of West Asia, Africa, and Latin America as they are from the guilt cultures of western Europe. I hope you talk about that a little more.

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    • Replies: @JayMan

    I don’t think black creativity is only extroversion, but that’s definitely a big part of it.
     
    Does extroversion per se make you better at improvisation? I'm not sure it does.

    . I could pull an evo psych explanation out of my ass about blacks undergoing sexual selection in Africa which made them better dancers and singers,
     
    That's not evo-psych, that's HBD. And I suspect that that was the case.

    And can you clarify a little more why Western openness now makes them holists, particularly since the 1960s?
     
    Openness to experience is in good part about embracing all sorts of unconventional, and indeed, weird (small letters – big letters too) things.

    Lastly, you seem to want to want to reduce all cultural variation to clannish vs. non-clannish, but as you know, there’s significant variation among clannish peoples. The clannish shame cultures of East Asia are just as far away from the clannish honor cultures of West Asia, Africa, and Latin America as they are from the guilt cultures of western Europe.
     
    Did I say that? But in the grand map of the world, clannishness is one aspect where NW Europeans stand decidedly apart from the rest.
  50. anon says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @Kamran
    "This would objectively be a great loss to the entire world."

    I don't care about this. I would rather live in a hovel, than receive some material advantage in exchange for my enemies lording over me. Most optimally of course, I would like to gain the white demon's power.

    This reminds me of the kind of stuff that goes in places like Iraq and Afghanistan where the military build a well for four villages to share and they smash it up at night because the benefit to the three enemy villages is more important to them than the benefit to their own.

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  51. anon says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    Aren’t Jewish people (historically) more clannish than NW Euros?

    An interesting test case maybe as they were in western Europe, even more so in Eastern Europe and became much less so on return to western Europe.

    The latter stage coinciding with a much greater contribution to science etc.

    This is an example of how this aspect at least isn’t fixed – a nation might be high in this trait at one point then circumstances change so it goes down and maybe later back up again.

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  52. @Rdm
    It's a good piece of analysis worth discussing.

    From what I found is what happened to Greek ? The territory that mostly constitute southern Europeans and a bit of mixture from the Middle East? The time when Greek literature (Plato), science (Pythagoras) outperformed their neighboring countries in Europe? Greek must have looked at those Germanic tribes as barbaric, illiterate, waste-of-space population.

    What happened to Greek now? Defaulted their debt twice, frowned upon in Europe, Did Science and Literature disappear from the face of the Earth? Greek must be thinking once their achievement cannot be sustained, the ENTIRE world will become stagnant and go chaos. Did it actually happen?

    Europeans took the reins. What about Ashkenazi Jews? Small population but managed to control the direction of the US, economic, foreign, education policy? What are "White" NW Europeans doing then? Did they become "Obtuse" or "Stupid"?

    Then go back to 6th Century back when Europeans wiping their ass with communal brush, East Asians (Han Chinese) were using Toilet paper to finish their mass. What does that tell you? When Middle Kingdom Empire were living in a Palace, where were Europeans King living in? Stone Henge?

    What I found is this analysis has its own merit, but remember, you are only picking up the periods of time when NW Europeans contribute much to the development and advancement of human civilization. If you go back further than that, I'm sure NW Europeans will be fighting with polar bears, let alone composing classical music.

    From what I found is what happened to Greek ? The territory that mostly constitute southern Europeans and a bit of mixture from the Middle East? The time when Greek literature (Plato), science (Pythagoras) outperformed their neighboring countries in Europe? Greek must have looked at those Germanic tribes as barbaric, illiterate, waste-of-space population.

    What I found is this analysis has its own merit, but remember, you are only picking up the periods of time when NW Europeans contribute much to the development and advancement of human civilization. If you go back further than that, I’m sure NW Europeans will be fighting with polar bears, let alone composing classical music.

    I edited the post to answer this question.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Rdm
    I read your edited post and agreed that if we brought up certain events happened from time immemorial, we can argue forever which event is which.

    Not nitpicking over semantics, however I gathered that you are saying Evolution happened a lot faster these days than what had happened a thousand years ago. Therefore, NW Europeans have appeared to evolve scientifically and artistically than the rest of the racial groups during the past centuries, supported by their wealth, achievement, IQ, Nobel, etc etc.

    This is a summary of your post in one paragraph. It seems plausible and ego-stroking article for NW Europeans for sure, assuming a human with an average life-span of 70 years, can now look back 400 years of their achievement and feel good whatever that stroke.

    I will argue 2 issues; Evolution and NW Europeans.

    Evolution happens every second, but the speed it evolves remains the same. Either you go back in time 1000 or 5000 years, you will only understand when you put yourself into contemporary subjects. Since this is scientific perspective, bear with me one this. When you think back what happened an hour ago, you don't actually need an hour in order to "reflect" or "think back". Within a flash of second, you remember what happened an hour ago. The same goes for thinking about what happened yesterday. You don't need 24 hours to think back what happened yesterday. Now think about what happened a year ago. Do you need 365 days to think back? Memory might be blurry, the fact of the matter here is all those time scale: 1 hour, 24 hours, 365 days, you spent those times as time goes by. Your grand grand parents who had lived on this Earth also went by those time scale. An hour they had lived thousands years ago on this Earth is the same hour we are experience these days. But to think back time immemorial, we don't need to travel back, we just need a flash of second to reflect what had happened previously. That's when this "Evolution proceeds quicker than you think" problem kicks in.

    Do you think a human who had lived 10,000 years ago evolve slowly than we do today? The evolutionary angle we are now looking at is so simple; we tend to look at it from scientific advancement and materialistic achievement. Now pause here. Let's reflect.

    You wake up in the morning, have breakfast, read the news, go for work, walk up straight, smile at other pedestrians you come across. That's normal for today. Now put yourself back in stone age or whatever age. You woke up in a cave, the cave that you arduously searched in the wilderness to protect yourself because you had to run to death the other day from the wild animals chasing you. You felt some sensation called "hunger" in your stomach. You had no idea what to put something in your mouth. So you grabbed a bunch of leaves protruding from the stone cracks, put into your mouth, and that's how you started experimenting with different kinds of edible things putting into your mouth.

    You went out to navigate the territory; you came across another feather that looked exactly like you. Are you going to smile at him? or are you going to be anxious that he's going to kill you and eat you? or how do you communicate? by British English? ok that's a joke.

    So coming back to our question of evolution and its speed; the simple thing that we take for granted these days, waking up without worries, be able to smile at fellow human beings, communicating through language, traveling from destination to destination, they all constitute "Evolutionary Achievement" over thousands of years.

    From your standpoint, you are discounting those evolutionary achievement with the current evolution. For eg., developing a bona fide language for the first time in human history for communication will take years to become functionally effective. But the offshoot of the existing language is merely "evolution", unless it is entirely different in nature. So NW Europeans, did they develop their communication language earlier than the rest of the human race? like they became verbal, began asking questions out of curiosity?

    The bottom line is Evolution proceeds as the same speed as it did thousands of years ago. What you observed from NW Europeans are not evolutionary traits. They are offshoots of pre-existing conditions, or vis a vis accumulated wealth, which I commented in next.
  53. @AndrewR
    HBD Chick is impossible for me to take seriously due to her obscene aversion to capitalization. For text messages or IMs such a typing style may be appropriate but no one above the age of 15 has any excuse to write thousand-word blog posts without a single capital letter. I am pretty sure I'm not alone in thinking this.

    HBD Chick is impossible for me to take seriously due to her obscene aversion to capitalization.

    If you can’t focus on the content of her writing, then maybe you are impossible for me to take seriously.

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  54. @Anonymous
    The supposed IQ axis of the first map doesn't make a lot of sense, even just as a correlation there are several countries which are put together but are at 5 or more IQ points of distance. I mean, Bulgaria and Denmark? Italy and Macedonia? Ireland and Zambia? Romania and Canada?

    The supposed IQ axis of the first map doesn’t make a lot of sense, even just as a correlation

    See here

    Seriously.

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  55. @Olorin
    Not the North Sea/west of the Hajnal Line. That much is certain.

    What came from there: systematic methods for critique and analysis of religion, including the entire field of comparative myth and religion.

    Me:

    Where did Western Christianity come from?

    You:

    Not the North Sea/west of the Hajnal Line. That much is certain.

    Really? You might want to read up on Martin Luther, for one.

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  56. Evolution works a lot faster than JayMan supposes. The illegitimacy rate of whites in the US today is almost double that of blacks in 1960. Total collapse in two generations!

    Read More
    • Replies: @JayMan

    Evolution works a lot faster than JayMan supposes. The illegitimacy rate of whites in the US today is almost double that of blacks in 1960.
     
    That's not evolution (though it is a result of evolution). See the breeder's equation above.
  57. @AndrewR
    "Whites and to East Asians. Participants were asked to group two of the objects together. Westerners grouped the panda and the monkey (since they’re both animals). Easterners, on the other hand, grouped the monkey and the banana (since monkeys eat bananas)."

    Define your terms. Are "Whites" and "Westerners" interchangeable? Are "East Asians" necessarily non-White and non-Western? Do these results hold for all "Whites" or "East Asians?

    Very sloppy writing and thinking, Jay.

    Define your terms. Are “Whites” and “Westerners” interchangeable? Are “East Asians” necessarily non-White and non-Western? Do these results hold for all “Whites” or “East Asians?

    You’re one comment away from being banned. Let’s see if you make it through to when I finish the comments queue.

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  58. @thinkingabout it
    With all due respect, JayMan, I think you are given far too much freedom to indulge in your fact-free fantasies because you are black. And the quasi-white nationalists who populate this websites LOVE LOVE LOVE having a non-white man say how great they are, because it makes them feel like it is an objective fact.

    This post of yours is meandering, confusing, and composed mostly of ad-hoc rationalizations.

    "Prominent figures" in art and literature? Really? If you asked Chiang Kai Shek he would have rattled off a hundred neo-Confucians, and no Europeans. If you asked some Hindu fakir he would have spoken of the great imagery in the sanskrit poetry of some random dude, but would have never heard of Shakespeare. And if you ask a fat hairy feminist, she's going to say the only worthy artists and writers were nasty post-60s lesbians like herself.

    Read Nassim Nicholas Taleb's "Fooled by Randomness", if you haven't already. You are reading too much into some random patterns in history, and trying to draw grand conclusions from it. You just have a willing audience who will latch on to anything that confirms their belief in NW European genetic superiority, but don't confuse it for science.

    You are the younger, cooler, edgier version of Thomas Sowell and Ben Carson - someone who gets more credit than they deserve, just because of their race. Same for HBD chick and gender. If a white guy wrote the same thing you two did, he would shrivel away, unknown, in an obscure corner of the internet.

    Europe's achievements are perhaps, in part, biological, but they cannot be separated from the tremendous benefit that Europe's unique cultural institutions supplied. And these cultural institutions were accidents of history, you can never prove that it was the Europeans' special personalities that made them come up with liberalism and democracy. This sort of woolly-headed reasoning, completely unfalsifiable, is why evopsych gets a bad name among scientists.

    And the domino effect, of being close to a place where certain ideas sprung up, is not factored into your analysis either. Agriculture arose in the near east many millennia ago. It reached Europe and India very early, likely through diffusion. Agriculture arose in the Americas independently much, much later. That doesn't say anything about the relative intelligence of the native Americans vs native Europeans and Indians, it was just an accident of history that the latter two cultures happened to be right next to the place where agriculture first flourished.

    Europe’s achievements are perhaps, in part, biological, but they cannot be separated from the tremendous benefit that Europe’s unique cultural institutions supplied.

    WHERE THE FUCK DO CULTURAL INSTITUTIONS COME FROM?

    Why are the commenters to this entry so stupid?

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    • Replies: @thinkingaboutit
    Good god, man. Are eastern and western Germany biologically predisposed to communism and capitalism respectively? The koreas? Athens and Sparta?
    Accidents of history are rarely given the weight they deserve.
    You really need someone to intellectually challenge you, instead of praising you for every little utterance of yours. You have some interesting ideas, but you need honest critique, not a bunch of yes men.
  59. @Anonymous
    You should sort out the IQ maps in this post. They contradict each other.

    You should sort out the IQ maps in this post. They contradict each other.

    Look closer. And maybe read closer, too.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Look at what? I'm looking at Europe in images 3, 4 and 10. They contradict each other.
  60. @siberiancat
    Weird, and against common sense. I hail from Russia, and don't remember a single instance of even second cousin marriage amongst my friends and relatives.
    First cousin marriages, as far as I know, are disapproved by the Orthodox Church.

    Weird, and against common sense. I hail from Russia, and don’t remember a single instance of even second cousin marriage amongst my friends and relatives.
    First cousin marriages, as far as I know, are disapproved by the Orthodox Church.

    mating patterns in medieval eastern europe | hbd chick

    In fact, see here for the whole list, for those who are curious: How Inbred are Europeans?

    Read More
  61. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @JayMan

    It seems like you’re trying to force things to fit the theory, with the examples and data changing back and forth when necessary to maintain the theory.
     
    Actually, I know a thing or two about history, and I understand the breeder's equation

    Historians of science don’t attribute science to NW Europeans
     
    The data say otherwise.

    Possible counter-examples and historical discrepancies seem to be casually hand waved away or altered to maintain the theory.

    Which data or definition of science do you have in mind? It’s not clear to me how you could read the many histories of science and thought, as well as the writings of early NW European philosophers and natural philosophers, and conclude that science was only invented 3 or 4 hundred years ago in NW Europe.

    Read More
    • Replies: @JayMan

    Which data or definition of science do you have in mind? It’s not clear to me how you could read the many histories of science and thought, as well as the writings of early NW European philosophers and natural philosophers, and conclude that science was only invented 3 or 4 hundred years ago in NW Europe.
     
    Modern science started with Galileo, Newton, and others in that era.

    Look, this is foolish, I'm not engaging in this semantic quibble, which is extremely tangential to what I'm discussing here. I'd advise you to drop it, last warning.

  62. @JEGG
    I don't believe you mention male-female differences anywhere. I suspect that the kind of technological innovation that produced high rates of GDP growth in much of the twentieth century in the developed world has been suffering in the last few decades in part because modern society is becoming more and more feminized (and hence more holistic in overall emphasis).

    I suspect that the kind of technological innovation that produced high rates of GDP growth in much of the twentieth century in the developed world has been suffering in the last few decades in part because modern society is becoming more and more feminized

    I don’t know if there’s evidence for either of those claims.

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  63. @Lion of the Judah-sphere
    I don't think black creativity is only extroversion, but that's definitely a big part of it. I could pull an evo psych explanation out of my ass about blacks undergoing sexual selection in Africa which made them better dancers and singers, but that's all just speculation.

    And can you clarify a little more why Western openness now makes them holists, particularly since the 1960s? (although Western holism can probably be traced back further to American transcendentalism and German Idealism)

    Lastly, you seem to want to want to reduce all cultural variation to clannish vs. non-clannish, but as you know, there's significant variation among clannish peoples. The clannish shame cultures of East Asia are just as far away from the clannish honor cultures of West Asia, Africa, and Latin America as they are from the guilt cultures of western Europe. I hope you talk about that a little more.

    I don’t think black creativity is only extroversion, but that’s definitely a big part of it.

    Does extroversion per se make you better at improvisation? I’m not sure it does.

    . I could pull an evo psych explanation out of my ass about blacks undergoing sexual selection in Africa which made them better dancers and singers,

    That’s not evo-psych, that’s HBD. And I suspect that that was the case.

    And can you clarify a little more why Western openness now makes them holists, particularly since the 1960s?

    Openness to experience is in good part about embracing all sorts of unconventional, and indeed, weird (small letters – big letters too) things.

    Lastly, you seem to want to want to reduce all cultural variation to clannish vs. non-clannish, but as you know, there’s significant variation among clannish peoples. The clannish shame cultures of East Asia are just as far away from the clannish honor cultures of West Asia, Africa, and Latin America as they are from the guilt cultures of western Europe.

    Did I say that? But in the grand map of the world, clannishness is one aspect where NW Europeans stand decidedly apart from the rest.

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    • Replies: @Lion of the Judah-sphere
    As a musician (I know some others here are too), I am actually curious about your thoughts here. What does make a good improviser? Low latent inhibition? Situational awareness? A talent for bullshit?

    I'm wondering if it's related to seduction somehow :)

  64. @Reg Cæsar
    Evolution works a lot faster than JayMan supposes. The illegitimacy rate of whites in the US today is almost double that of blacks in 1960. Total collapse in two generations!

    Evolution works a lot faster than JayMan supposes. The illegitimacy rate of whites in the US today is almost double that of blacks in 1960.

    That’s not evolution (though it is a result of evolution). See the breeder’s equation above.

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    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    Yes, I was just kidding. But if not HBD, what's left? Environmental factors, human choice, then what?
  65. @JayMan

    For one, I’m not sure we can say Northwestern Europeans are the most creative people in the world. Blacks have demonstrated substantial creativity, particularly in music and entertainment.

    I would argue that blacks’ “creativity” is mostly a function of their high extroversion. In the fields where they predominate, like popular music and comedy, they tend to specialize in certain areas: in popular music, mostly improvisational (jazz) or syncopated dance music (R&B, hip-hop).
     

    I don't think it's simply a matter of extroversion.

    Of course, you don’t see see too many in Swedish death metal.
     
    About that (almost added this to the post):

    https://twitter.com/JayMan471/statuses/508328358669987840

    Same pattern as the rest. I know some fool out there will claim that the way to win more Nobel prizes is to listen to more heavy metal.


    As a final note: you’ve laid out brilliantly that Westerners = reductionistic, and Easterners = holistic. But what explains Westerners fascination with Eastern holism since the 1960s, particularly among those high in openness? (in the form of Eastern religion, New Age, systems theory, vegetarianism, etc.)
     
    Yup.

    Oh, second final note: This all makes perfect sense, but it would be good get to get as much data as possible to back up your assertions (which you’ve done a lot already); people will claim that you’re inventing ad-hoc reasons for East Asian weakness in sciences despite their higher intelligence. And then they’ll say you’re raaaaay-cist!
     
    The data speak for themselves.

    The flip side of Nordic death metal is the utterly poppish quality of Scandinavian orchestral music: Grieg, Alfvén, Nielsen, Halvorsen, the Swedish-American Leroy Anderson. Sibelius was part-Swede as well. Very easy listening.

    The pop music scene also produced ABBA, Roxette, Ace of Base, a-ha and the like. The folk songs can be quite dark– or nursery-rhymy.

    It’s almost as if manic-depression is their musical template. The normally comic, goofball Harry Nilsson, another Swedish-American, had his biggest hit in “Without You”, which sounded, ironically, far more suicidal than the Badfinger original.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Lion of the Judah-sphere
    I read this recently:

    http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2013/10/why-is-sweden-so-good-at-pop-music/280945/
  66. @JayMan

    Evolution works a lot faster than JayMan supposes. The illegitimacy rate of whites in the US today is almost double that of blacks in 1960.
     
    That's not evolution (though it is a result of evolution). See the breeder's equation above.

    Yes, I was just kidding. But if not HBD, what’s left? Environmental factors, human choice, then what?

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  67. @Seneca
    As a dedicated but amateur jazz musician (who has preformed with some great jazz musicians over the years) I have noticed this also and thought about it a little.

    In my opinion because jazz involves rapid musical improvisation, most other musicians who play an instrument either can appreciate or admire a good jazz performance. They can appreciate how difficult it is and marvel at the performer. It's akin to watching a great athlete improvise, but instead you are "listening" instead of watching. The effect of a great soloist can be hypnotic, to those well versed enough in the language of music to appreciate what he is doing.

    If you think of music as a language, then non- musicians or casual listeners simply often cannot process complex musical information. They don't understand or are not familiar enough with the language to appreciate what is being communicated or its subtleties. Thus, jazz improvisation (particularly the more complex kinds) simply sounds like noise or nothing special to the average non-musician.

    To be sure I have met jazz fans who are not musicians or do not have a musical background, but in my experience they seem less common.

    Thanks that makes a lot of sense.

    Sounds like that may have been my problem with other things as well. I’ve tried reading things like Thomas Pynchon’s stuff over the years. Usually I wind up chucking it against a wall and not finishing it. But I’ve probably read “A Princess of Mars”… twenty? thirty? times.

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  68. @Anonymous
    Possible counter-examples and historical discrepancies seem to be casually hand waved away or altered to maintain the theory.

    Which data or definition of science do you have in mind? It's not clear to me how you could read the many histories of science and thought, as well as the writings of early NW European philosophers and natural philosophers, and conclude that science was only invented 3 or 4 hundred years ago in NW Europe.

    Which data or definition of science do you have in mind? It’s not clear to me how you could read the many histories of science and thought, as well as the writings of early NW European philosophers and natural philosophers, and conclude that science was only invented 3 or 4 hundred years ago in NW Europe.

    Modern science started with Galileo, Newton, and others in that era.

    Look, this is foolish, I’m not engaging in this semantic quibble, which is extremely tangential to what I’m discussing here. I’d advise you to drop it, last warning.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    It's not a mere semantic quibble though. Galileo disagreed with the predominant Aristotelian physics of his day, but he was very much working in the tradition of physics first established and systematized in the West by Aristotle. Newton's calculus was completely geometrical, which didn't originate with Newton but goes back to the Greeks. Etc.
  69. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @JayMan

    Which data or definition of science do you have in mind? It’s not clear to me how you could read the many histories of science and thought, as well as the writings of early NW European philosophers and natural philosophers, and conclude that science was only invented 3 or 4 hundred years ago in NW Europe.
     
    Modern science started with Galileo, Newton, and others in that era.

    Look, this is foolish, I'm not engaging in this semantic quibble, which is extremely tangential to what I'm discussing here. I'd advise you to drop it, last warning.

    It’s not a mere semantic quibble though. Galileo disagreed with the predominant Aristotelian physics of his day, but he was very much working in the tradition of physics first established and systematized in the West by Aristotle. Newton’s calculus was completely geometrical, which didn’t originate with Newton but goes back to the Greeks. Etc.

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  70. @JayMan

    At first glance the idea that clannishness is opposed to high trust invites questions. After all family and clan require trust and punishment of betrayal of trust to get the benefit out of belonging to the clan.

    So, to start with, is even the presumption of trust and loyalty within the clan incorrect?
     

    This is why I put the note to read the links in the beginning of the post. But yes, in clannish societies, there is generally high trust within the clan, but lower trust between clans.

    Are the dynamics of large families, and even larger much extended clannish families, such as to produce friction, tension and dislike?
     
    Well clannish people tend to be more antagonistic and aggressive, so family life is often more acrimonious than in WEIRDO families just for that reason.

    Thanks and apologies for not having done my prescribed homework.

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  71. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    You posit that NW Europeans are better than NE Asians in abstract thinking yet most people would say Asians have better aptitude for the quintessential abstract field – Math.

    It’s true that Asians lag in Field’s Medals, but is that enough to counter what we see in Math Olympiads, test scores, representation in STEM, and most people’s personal experience?

    How about in coding?

    I would also like to see the m/f difference in Holistic vs Abstract reasoning.

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  72. @JayMan

    Science is based on mathmatics and that began in the middle east in the 7th century. The two oldest universities are in Turkey and Iraq. Algerbra is an Arab term. The concept of zero is Arabic. You aren’t going to get to the moon using Roman numerals.
     
    When there is information from previous sources available, it will be utilized by future people. Knowledge is cumulative. But modern Western science doesn't form a direct continuity with the Islamic golden age.

    All that is besides the point anyway. What trajectory those societies follow since that time?

    I was surprised that you didn’t ask what list of 10 fallacies he resorted to. Zero an “Arab” or “Arabic” concept? Try Indian or maybe Sumerian. Mathematics started in the 7th century (sic)!!! Anyway mathematics has nothing intrinsically to do with the scientific method or any empirical connection to the real world any more than the alphabet.

    Oldest universities? I was amused to see 1453 as the founding date on a university building in Istanbul but of course Bologna stakes the best claim in Europe at 1088 and there are lots of lists online – but not one I can find that gives plausibility to Biff’s claims.

    As to the achievements of Islam’s glory days it seems to be true that the Arabic of illiterates like the Prophet had become the language of learning and intellectual achievement but that was often the work of Christians and Jews. So….. Arabic, rather than Arab, and not necessarily Muslim.

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    • Replies: @Lion of the Judah-sphere
    Nassim Taleb has pointed out that most of the scholars during Islam's "glory days" were Persian, not Arabic.
  73. @JayMan

    The thing is you don’t really need “clannishness” to explain any of this (except insofar as in extreme inbreeding cases it begins to greatly lower overall IQ leading to much smaller smart fractions).
     
    It's pretty clear that clannishness correlates with the abstract vs. holistic world.

    Ancient Greeks did a lot of abstract thinking, and produced the greatest cultural/scientific peak until the Renaissance (according to the same Charles Murray’s figures).
     
    Ancient Greeks were quite different than modern Greeks. And how clannish were the ancients?

    During the Middle Ages, in pure scientific terms, the Islamic world was most advanced.
     
    It wasn't the Arabs making those discoveries. And it also didn't last long, for some reason.

    The Renaissance began in northern Italy. Only in the 17th century did the bulk of scientific discoveries move to NW Europe.
     
    In the definition HBD Chick and I use, and as should be make abundantly clear by the maps, Northern Italy = NW Europe. "NW Europe" here refers to the region enclosed by the Hajnal line.

    North Italians are not Middle Easterners in the clannishness department, but they are most certainly not Englishmen or Swedes either.
     
    Yes, that's something this post should make clear. Degrees...

    The Swedes at that time however were about 1% literate (can’t have much literacy in a low-density, rural environment at that level of development) whereas the literacy rate in Renaissance Italy was more like 20%.
     
    I think HBD Chick well covered that the Scandinavians were late-comers to the WEIRDO world, but they came with a vengeance when they did. Apparently, there was a period of intense selection for WEIRDO-ness in Scandinavia.

    Scientific creativity is much more likely a simple function of smart fractions * literacy race,
     
    Nope. This post makes it clear that that position is untenable.

    In modern times, relative wealth levels would play a greater part
     
    Two words: East Asia (relative wealth roughly the same in Japan, for example). And besides, where does relative wealth come from?

    It’s pretty clear that clannishness correlates with the abstract vs. holistic world.

    No, that’s not clear at all.

    Nisbett himself portrays it as a Europe vs. East Asia difference. As the anonymous fellow below points out, both Islamic and Indic civilizations tend towards the abstract end of the spectrum, despite being far more clannish than East Asian peoples (whose real level of clannishness you frankly overstate: East Asians punish antisocial behavior almost to the same extent as do Hajnal Europeans; the level of everyday corruption in Japan, Korea, and even China is far closer to Hajnal European levels than to India or any random country in the Middle East; etc).

    What is another personality trait, however, that could explain a preference for holistic as opposed to abstract thinking? Curiosity – which has now thanks to Kura et al. been shown to be likely systemically lower amongst Mongoloids vs. Caucasoids by one or two S.D.’s.

    It wasn’t the Arabs making those discoveries. And it also didn’t last long, for some reason.

    Ibn Khaldun was as Arab as they come.

    Anyway, excessive inbreeding causes IQ drops. IQ drops = ever tinier smart fractions = scientific progress stops. After Islam inbreeding increased, IQ must have gradually dropped over the centuries, and so the Islamic Golden Age ended.

    This IQ drop would be enough to explain it, clannishness per se is superfluous.

    In the definition HBD Chick and I use, and as should be make abundantly clear by the maps, Northern Italy = NW Europe. “NW Europe” here refers to the region enclosed by the Hajnal line… I think HBD Chick well covered that the Scandinavians were late-comers to the WEIRDO world, but they came with a vengeance when they did.

    The Protestant Reformation was associated with northern revulsion against the perceived corruption and politicking of the Catholic Church. Southerners tended to be okay with that – they didn’t turn Protestant, at any rate – whereas northerners almost universally turned Catholic. To this extent, northerners were already WEIRDer than southern Europeans, including northern Italians.

    Another marker frequently used in the HBDsphere to proxy clannishness is murder/violence rates. Renaissance Italy was extremely violent. Most likely so was Ancient Greece. Ancient Rome we know certainly was (see Apuleius’ The Golden Ass). Nonetheless, it was orders of magnitude more scientifically productive than Scandinavia.

    Why? Most likely because in 1500 Scandinavians were 99% illiterate hicks, while 20-25% of Northern Italians were literate townsmen, merchants, etc.

    Nope. This post makes it clear that that position is untenable.

    Just to make it clear: You believe that a society with 1% literacy versus a society with 20% literacy is no big deal when it comes to scientific creativity?

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    • Replies: @JayMan

    No, that’s not clear at all.

    Nisbett himself portrays it as a Europe vs. East Asia difference. As the anonymous fellow below points out, both Islamic and Indic civilizations tend towards the abstract end of the spectrum,
     

    Sure, we need more of these tests from the rest of the non-WEIRDO world.

    East Asians punish antisocial behavior almost to the same extent as do Hajnal Europeans; the level of everyday corruption in Japan, Korea, and even China is far closer to Hajnal European levels than to India or any random country in the Middle East; etc).
     
    China? No way. Japan and South Korea, maybe, on the low end. In the end, it's all a matter of how good our measures of corruption are, and I don't think they're good enought to nitpick too closely.

    As for punishment, well the East Asian countries went through a genetic pacification process similar to the ones NW Europeans went through. This makes them less violent, but not necessarily less corrupt (especially the Chinese).


    What is another personality trait, however, that could explain a preference for holistic as opposed to abstract thinking? Curiosity – which has now thanks to Kura et al. been shown to be likely systemically lower amongst Mongoloids vs. Caucasoids by one or two S.D.’s.
     
    I say tomato... My point is that there are deep systematic differences in the mentality of different peoples across the world. These differences will be reflected in many aspects. It's important to remember that the measures – including clannishness – are approximations of the reality. To claim it's just one little personality trait that makes all the difference (note, clannishness is a suite of traits) is oversimplification.

    Anyway, excessive inbreeding causes IQ drops. IQ drops = ever tinier smart fractions = scientific progress stops. After Islam inbreeding increased, IQ must have gradually dropped over the centuries, and so the Islamic Golden Age ended.
     
    Indeed. Though I think we'll be investigating the cause of this for some time.

    This IQ drop would be enough to explain it, clannishness per se is superfluous.
     
    This goes back to East Asia (and for that matter, Eastern Europe). The Chinese are quite inbred, yet IQ is comparable to NW Euro levels, yet lackluster performance. Inbreeding doesn't always lead to lower IQ (especially in face of counteracting selection).

    To this extent, northerners were already WEIRDer than southern Europeans, including northern Italians.
     
    Yes.

    Another marker frequently used in the HBDsphere to proxy clannishness is murder/violence rates. Renaissance Italy was extremely violent.
     
    The two are correlated but distinct. Again, see China.

    Why? Most likely because in 1500 Scandinavians were 99% illiterate hicks, while 20-25% of Northern Italians were literate townsmen, merchants, etc.
     
    The rapid decline in violence in Scandinavia around that time shows there was a period of intense selection acting on them then.

    Just to make it clear: You believe that a society with 1% literacy versus a society with 20% literacy is no big deal when it comes to scientific creativity?
     
    Genetic potential is an important concept.
  74. @JayMan

    I don’t think black creativity is only extroversion, but that’s definitely a big part of it.
     
    Does extroversion per se make you better at improvisation? I'm not sure it does.

    . I could pull an evo psych explanation out of my ass about blacks undergoing sexual selection in Africa which made them better dancers and singers,
     
    That's not evo-psych, that's HBD. And I suspect that that was the case.

    And can you clarify a little more why Western openness now makes them holists, particularly since the 1960s?
     
    Openness to experience is in good part about embracing all sorts of unconventional, and indeed, weird (small letters – big letters too) things.

    Lastly, you seem to want to want to reduce all cultural variation to clannish vs. non-clannish, but as you know, there’s significant variation among clannish peoples. The clannish shame cultures of East Asia are just as far away from the clannish honor cultures of West Asia, Africa, and Latin America as they are from the guilt cultures of western Europe.
     
    Did I say that? But in the grand map of the world, clannishness is one aspect where NW Europeans stand decidedly apart from the rest.

    As a musician (I know some others here are too), I am actually curious about your thoughts here. What does make a good improviser? Low latent inhibition? Situational awareness? A talent for bullshit?

    I’m wondering if it’s related to seduction somehow :)

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  75. @Reg Cæsar
    The flip side of Nordic death metal is the utterly poppish quality of Scandinavian orchestral music: Grieg, Alfvén, Nielsen, Halvorsen, the Swedish-American Leroy Anderson. Sibelius was part-Swede as well. Very easy listening.

    The pop music scene also produced ABBA, Roxette, Ace of Base, a-ha and the like. The folk songs can be quite dark-- or nursery-rhymy.

    It's almost as if manic-depression is their musical template. The normally comic, goofball Harry Nilsson, another Swedish-American, had his biggest hit in "Without You", which sounded, ironically, far more suicidal than the Badfinger original.
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  76. @JayMan

    Europe’s achievements are perhaps, in part, biological, but they cannot be separated from the tremendous benefit that Europe’s unique cultural institutions supplied.
     
    WHERE THE FUCK DO CULTURAL INSTITUTIONS COME FROM?

    Why are the commenters to this entry so stupid?

    Good god, man. Are eastern and western Germany biologically predisposed to communism and capitalism respectively? The koreas? Athens and Sparta?
    Accidents of history are rarely given the weight they deserve.
    You really need someone to intellectually challenge you, instead of praising you for every little utterance of yours. You have some interesting ideas, but you need honest critique, not a bunch of yes men.

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    • Replies: @JayMan

    Good god, man. Are eastern and western Germany biologically predisposed to communism and capitalism respectively? The koreas? Athens and Sparta?
     
    Germania’s Seed?

    Stop Saying North and South Koreans Are Necessarily Completely Identical Populations

    “l’explication de l’idéologie” | hbd chick


    Accidents of history are rarely given the weight they deserve.
     
    Where do historical accidents come from?

    You really need someone to intellectually challenge you, instead of praising you for every little utterance of yours
     
    I hope you have luck finding one to do so.
  77. @Wizard of Oz
    I was surprised that you didn't ask what list of 10 fallacies he resorted to. Zero an "Arab" or "Arabic" concept? Try Indian or maybe Sumerian. Mathematics started in the 7th century (sic)!!! Anyway mathematics has nothing intrinsically to do with the scientific method or any empirical connection to the real world any more than the alphabet.

    Oldest universities? I was amused to see 1453 as the founding date on a university building in Istanbul but of course Bologna stakes the best claim in Europe at 1088 and there are lots of lists online - but not one I can find that gives plausibility to Biff's claims.

    As to the achievements of Islam's glory days it seems to be true that the Arabic of illiterates like the Prophet had become the language of learning and intellectual achievement but that was often the work of Christians and Jews. So..... Arabic, rather than Arab, and not necessarily Muslim.

    Nassim Taleb has pointed out that most of the scholars during Islam’s “glory days” were Persian, not Arabic.

    Read More
  78. @Anatoly Karlin

    It’s pretty clear that clannishness correlates with the abstract vs. holistic world.
     
    No, that's not clear at all.

    Nisbett himself portrays it as a Europe vs. East Asia difference. As the anonymous fellow below points out, both Islamic and Indic civilizations tend towards the abstract end of the spectrum, despite being far more clannish than East Asian peoples (whose real level of clannishness you frankly overstate: East Asians punish antisocial behavior almost to the same extent as do Hajnal Europeans; the level of everyday corruption in Japan, Korea, and even China is far closer to Hajnal European levels than to India or any random country in the Middle East; etc).

    What is another personality trait, however, that could explain a preference for holistic as opposed to abstract thinking? Curiosity - which has now thanks to Kura et al. been shown to be likely systemically lower amongst Mongoloids vs. Caucasoids by one or two S.D.'s.

    It wasn’t the Arabs making those discoveries. And it also didn’t last long, for some reason.
     
    Ibn Khaldun was as Arab as they come.

    Anyway, excessive inbreeding causes IQ drops. IQ drops = ever tinier smart fractions = scientific progress stops. After Islam inbreeding increased, IQ must have gradually dropped over the centuries, and so the Islamic Golden Age ended.

    This IQ drop would be enough to explain it, clannishness per se is superfluous.

    In the definition HBD Chick and I use, and as should be make abundantly clear by the maps, Northern Italy = NW Europe. “NW Europe” here refers to the region enclosed by the Hajnal line... I think HBD Chick well covered that the Scandinavians were late-comers to the WEIRDO world, but they came with a vengeance when they did.
     
    The Protestant Reformation was associated with northern revulsion against the perceived corruption and politicking of the Catholic Church. Southerners tended to be okay with that - they didn't turn Protestant, at any rate - whereas northerners almost universally turned Catholic. To this extent, northerners were already WEIRDer than southern Europeans, including northern Italians.

    Another marker frequently used in the HBDsphere to proxy clannishness is murder/violence rates. Renaissance Italy was extremely violent. Most likely so was Ancient Greece. Ancient Rome we know certainly was (see Apuleius' The Golden Ass). Nonetheless, it was orders of magnitude more scientifically productive than Scandinavia.

    Why? Most likely because in 1500 Scandinavians were 99% illiterate hicks, while 20-25% of Northern Italians were literate townsmen, merchants, etc.

    Nope. This post makes it clear that that position is untenable.
     
    Just to make it clear: You believe that a society with 1% literacy versus a society with 20% literacy is no big deal when it comes to scientific creativity?

    No, that’s not clear at all.

    Nisbett himself portrays it as a Europe vs. East Asia difference. As the anonymous fellow below points out, both Islamic and Indic civilizations tend towards the abstract end of the spectrum,

    Sure, we need more of these tests from the rest of the non-WEIRDO world.

    East Asians punish antisocial behavior almost to the same extent as do Hajnal Europeans; the level of everyday corruption in Japan, Korea, and even China is far closer to Hajnal European levels than to India or any random country in the Middle East; etc).

    China? No way. Japan and South Korea, maybe, on the low end. In the end, it’s all a matter of how good our measures of corruption are, and I don’t think they’re good enought to nitpick too closely.

    As for punishment, well the East Asian countries went through a genetic pacification process similar to the ones NW Europeans went through. This makes them less violent, but not necessarily less corrupt (especially the Chinese).

    What is another personality trait, however, that could explain a preference for holistic as opposed to abstract thinking? Curiosity – which has now thanks to Kura et al. been shown to be likely systemically lower amongst Mongoloids vs. Caucasoids by one or two S.D.’s.

    I say tomato… My point is that there are deep systematic differences in the mentality of different peoples across the world. These differences will be reflected in many aspects. It’s important to remember that the measures – including clannishness – are approximations of the reality. To claim it’s just one little personality trait that makes all the difference (note, clannishness is a suite of traits) is oversimplification.

    Anyway, excessive inbreeding causes IQ drops. IQ drops = ever tinier smart fractions = scientific progress stops. After Islam inbreeding increased, IQ must have gradually dropped over the centuries, and so the Islamic Golden Age ended.

    Indeed. Though I think we’ll be investigating the cause of this for some time.

    This IQ drop would be enough to explain it, clannishness per se is superfluous.

    This goes back to East Asia (and for that matter, Eastern Europe). The Chinese are quite inbred, yet IQ is comparable to NW Euro levels, yet lackluster performance. Inbreeding doesn’t always lead to lower IQ (especially in face of counteracting selection).

    To this extent, northerners were already WEIRDer than southern Europeans, including northern Italians.

    Yes.

    Another marker frequently used in the HBDsphere to proxy clannishness is murder/violence rates. Renaissance Italy was extremely violent.

    The two are correlated but distinct. Again, see China.

    Why? Most likely because in 1500 Scandinavians were 99% illiterate hicks, while 20-25% of Northern Italians were literate townsmen, merchants, etc.

    The rapid decline in violence in Scandinavia around that time shows there was a period of intense selection acting on them then.

    Just to make it clear: You believe that a society with 1% literacy versus a society with 20% literacy is no big deal when it comes to scientific creativity?

    Genetic potential is an important concept.

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  79. @thinkingaboutit
    Good god, man. Are eastern and western Germany biologically predisposed to communism and capitalism respectively? The koreas? Athens and Sparta?
    Accidents of history are rarely given the weight they deserve.
    You really need someone to intellectually challenge you, instead of praising you for every little utterance of yours. You have some interesting ideas, but you need honest critique, not a bunch of yes men.

    Good god, man. Are eastern and western Germany biologically predisposed to communism and capitalism respectively? The koreas? Athens and Sparta?

    Germania’s Seed?

    Stop Saying North and South Koreans Are Necessarily Completely Identical Populations

    “l’explication de l’idéologie” | hbd chick

    Accidents of history are rarely given the weight they deserve.

    Where do historical accidents come from?

    You really need someone to intellectually challenge you, instead of praising you for every little utterance of yours

    I hope you have luck finding one to do so.

    Read More
    • Replies: @thinkingabout it
    1. The Germany article says nothing about HBD. Occam's razor would make most normal folk attribute this to the tremendous differences in political and religious climates these areas have experienced over the last millennium. Catholicism vs Protestantism, Prussia vs Austria-Hungary vs little city states, Germanic homogeneity vs exposure to the Slavic borderzone and so on.

    2. The Korea article is brazen in its abuse of statistical reasoning. Do you know what a Null hypothesis is? If you are claiming there is a genetic difference, it is incumbent upon YOU to prove it. I do not need to prove similarity - the null hypothesis is ALWAYS the baseline assumption in a Frequentist approach. And the overwhelming Bayesian prior, especially in this case where a fairly homogenous country was split apart by a war, is that the people of the DPRK and the ROK have very similar genetics.

    3. Historical accidents come from just that, accidents. Winter snowstorms which halt an army's march. Language barriers which prevent the spread of ideologies. Staple crops which are differentially affected by blight in any given year. Monsoon rains which fail in some areas and not in others, causing peasant revolts here and not there. Empires which exhaust their resources on one war, and find themselves overwhelmed by a new threat.

    And what is not caused by accident, can be explained by culture. Europeans were not necessarily predisposed to Christianity, they just happened to be under the rule of an empire which was taken over by Christians. Iranians were not predisposed to either Zoroastrianism or Islam, they just had it rammed down their throats by their emperors.

    Was there something genetic about West Punjabis that made them Muslim, while East Punjabis became Sikhs? HBD explains West Bengalis being Hindu, while East Bengalis became Muslim? If the Reconquista hadn't succeeded, you would have said there was something genetic about Spaniards that made them predisposed to accepting Islam. Now you would say there was something genetic about Spaniards that made them unsuited to Islam, while their cousins across the straits of Gibraltar were a better fit.

    None of those explanations can be completely falsified, but it takes a special kind of kook to think that genetic factors are the major explanations for a region's politico-religious 0utlay.

    There are no grand theories to be drawn from these random patterns. You and hbdchick remind me of children looking up at the clouds and imagining flowers and puppies and faces.

    Again, you have interesting ideas. But consider running it by someone with a passing knowledge of scientific analysis before publishing it here. God knows we have enough balderdash from that weird Mexican guy and other assorted loonies on Unz.com. Sailer, Razib and Derbyshire keep the place afloat, but they risk getting drowned out by all this baseless stuff.
    , @Rdm

    Stop Saying North and South Koreans Are Necessarily Completely Identical Populations
     
    Ugh, what in the world am I living that North and South Koreans, East and West Germans are biologically and genetically as distinct as Blacks and Whites?
  80. @JayMan

    From what I found is what happened to Greek ? The territory that mostly constitute southern Europeans and a bit of mixture from the Middle East? The time when Greek literature (Plato), science (Pythagoras) outperformed their neighboring countries in Europe? Greek must have looked at those Germanic tribes as barbaric, illiterate, waste-of-space population.
     

    What I found is this analysis has its own merit, but remember, you are only picking up the periods of time when NW Europeans contribute much to the development and advancement of human civilization. If you go back further than that, I’m sure NW Europeans will be fighting with polar bears, let alone composing classical music.
     
    I edited the post to answer this question.

    I read your edited post and agreed that if we brought up certain events happened from time immemorial, we can argue forever which event is which.

    Not nitpicking over semantics, however I gathered that you are saying Evolution happened a lot faster these days than what had happened a thousand years ago. Therefore, NW Europeans have appeared to evolve scientifically and artistically than the rest of the racial groups during the past centuries, supported by their wealth, achievement, IQ, Nobel, etc etc.

    This is a summary of your post in one paragraph. It seems plausible and ego-stroking article for NW Europeans for sure, assuming a human with an average life-span of 70 years, can now look back 400 years of their achievement and feel good whatever that stroke.

    I will argue 2 issues; Evolution and NW Europeans.

    Evolution happens every second, but the speed it evolves remains the same. Either you go back in time 1000 or 5000 years, you will only understand when you put yourself into contemporary subjects. Since this is scientific perspective, bear with me one this. When you think back what happened an hour ago, you don’t actually need an hour in order to “reflect” or “think back”. Within a flash of second, you remember what happened an hour ago. The same goes for thinking about what happened yesterday. You don’t need 24 hours to think back what happened yesterday. Now think about what happened a year ago. Do you need 365 days to think back? Memory might be blurry, the fact of the matter here is all those time scale: 1 hour, 24 hours, 365 days, you spent those times as time goes by. Your grand grand parents who had lived on this Earth also went by those time scale. An hour they had lived thousands years ago on this Earth is the same hour we are experience these days. But to think back time immemorial, we don’t need to travel back, we just need a flash of second to reflect what had happened previously. That’s when this “Evolution proceeds quicker than you think” problem kicks in.

    Do you think a human who had lived 10,000 years ago evolve slowly than we do today? The evolutionary angle we are now looking at is so simple; we tend to look at it from scientific advancement and materialistic achievement. Now pause here. Let’s reflect.

    You wake up in the morning, have breakfast, read the news, go for work, walk up straight, smile at other pedestrians you come across. That’s normal for today. Now put yourself back in stone age or whatever age. You woke up in a cave, the cave that you arduously searched in the wilderness to protect yourself because you had to run to death the other day from the wild animals chasing you. You felt some sensation called “hunger” in your stomach. You had no idea what to put something in your mouth. So you grabbed a bunch of leaves protruding from the stone cracks, put into your mouth, and that’s how you started experimenting with different kinds of edible things putting into your mouth.

    You went out to navigate the territory; you came across another feather that looked exactly like you. Are you going to smile at him? or are you going to be anxious that he’s going to kill you and eat you? or how do you communicate? by British English? ok that’s a joke.

    So coming back to our question of evolution and its speed; the simple thing that we take for granted these days, waking up without worries, be able to smile at fellow human beings, communicating through language, traveling from destination to destination, they all constitute “Evolutionary Achievement” over thousands of years.

    From your standpoint, you are discounting those evolutionary achievement with the current evolution. For eg., developing a bona fide language for the first time in human history for communication will take years to become functionally effective. But the offshoot of the existing language is merely “evolution”, unless it is entirely different in nature. So NW Europeans, did they develop their communication language earlier than the rest of the human race? like they became verbal, began asking questions out of curiosity?

    The bottom line is Evolution proceeds as the same speed as it did thousands of years ago. What you observed from NW Europeans are not evolutionary traits. They are offshoots of pre-existing conditions, or vis a vis accumulated wealth, which I commented in next.

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    • Replies: @JayMan

    Evolution happens every second, but the speed it evolves remains the same.
     
    Do you bother to read the things I point you to? Check out The 10,000 Year Explosion for a discussion on Fisherian acceleration.

    But then, from the rest of your comment, it doesn't sound like you understand the first thing about evolution or natural selection to begin with. Perhaps you may want to start more basic.

    , @anon

    Evolution happens every second, but the speed it evolves remains the same.
     
    Evolution speed depends on effective population size: more people = more random mutations.

    It will also depend on selection pressure. If the environment remains the same then even if the population increases there may be no reason to select for the new mutations.

    If the environment changes e.g. due to the change in marriage pattern in NW Europe, then that might create new selection pressures on both old and any new random mutations.
  81. 2. NW Europeans

    There’s no denying that Europeans in general, specifically Northern Europeans contributed much to the advancement of Humans civilization in the past centuries. It is also understandable if they feel proud of their achievement. However if you go on to explain why Evolution proceeds quicker in NW Europeans and their creativity stems from their hereditary traits or “WEIRDOS” trait, I suggest you pause it there because it’s not clannish or weirdo behavior that propelled them to become 21st century weirdos, it’s an accumulated wealth that propels them into becoming one.

    Now let’s look at all the beautiful world maps you put up there.
    IQ map shows a bit of distribution across the globe except Africa. NE Asians have the highest IQs whereas Africa has the lowest IQ. That’s not the point here. The point is IQ is relatively distributed across the globe.

    Now let’s look at all the other maps.
    Nobel Prizes,
    Field Medals,
    Scientific Publications,
    Patents applications,

    They all seem to cluster in Europeans countries, especially NW Europeans. Impressive, isn’t it? It is so astounding that out of so many nations, and countries on Earth, only those tiny countries from Europe stood out to contribute much to Science.

    You know what would explain? Just show the one giant map with countries that had “COLONIZE” other countries and accumulated wealth over time. That giant maps will explain in no time why we are seeing this lopsided distribution of NW Europeans contribution to Science in the past centuries.

    As I commented above, the world maps (Nobel Prize, Field Medal, Pubs, Patents), they are not the result of hereditary traits. They are the offshoot of pre-existing wealth conditions.

    If you dare, do the world map before Industrial revolution on these categories and check which continents stood out among others;
    1. Civilization (uniting tribal groups one after another, and lasting longer)
    2. Vertical movement in an Empire or Monarchy
    3. Spreading indigenous genes across the continent
    (I’d ask why NW Europeans failed to spread their genes to America in the first place? if their weirdo traits are so suited for discoveries and creativity? Why Native Americans genes are not European genes? Yea Bering straits and continent shaft, whatever, but why not NW Europeans genes? The fact that Native American genes belong to Asian genes is some form of hereditary achievement across the continent, don’t you think?)

    Those categories are to be Major Achievements in Human history before science. Now if you put back 21st century lens, you won’t find them major achievement. But I’d say they do stand out as Evolutionary Achievement in certain time point in evolution.

    Read More
    • Replies: @szopen
    The fact that those tiny countries could colonise vast areas of the world is as impressive achievement as later contributions to the science, because this fact was enabled by combination of technical advantages, psychological predispositions (and, last but not least, pure luck). Building sea-worthy ship is comparable to any scientific achievement.
  82. @JayMan

    Aren’t Jewish people (historically) more clannish than NW Euros?
     
    Ashkenazis are a type of in-betweener group. They have both clannish and WEIRDO attributes (and then, Western Ashkenazis may be less than clannish Eastern Ashkenazis are.)

    Ashkenazis are a type of in-betweener group. They have both clannish and WEIRDO attributes (and then, Western Ashkenazis may be less than clannish Eastern Ashkenazis are.)

    That would make sense, as their history seems to follow cycles of inbreeding and outbreeding. For example, the Radhanites of the Dark Ages, the theorized founding population of Ashkenazim, surely had the means to outbreed like crazy. Indeed we find everything from and between “NW Euro” to East Asian in their ancestry.

    I feel like too many, when it comes to Ashkenazi Jews, focus too much on their history of inbreeding, while overlooking what’s most unique about Ashkenazi breeding patterns historically (in that it is the combination/fluctuation of the two which makes them such an outlier in so many regards).

    When you look at the Dark Ages, all the way up to Russia, its almost as if they (the Ashkenazi) were a eugenically globalized man (which correlates with individualism obviously), of sorts, and then duplicated via heavy inbreeding, in spurts (to put it crudely). I find it extremely fascinating, unfortunately I haven’t seen HBD chick talking much about it specifically, would you happen to know of a source?

    Furthermore, it is interesting how the Wasp historically spread physical disease, and the Ashkenazi ideological, yet egalitarianism, at least relatively and generally speaking, seems to only come and go with the former. That is a whole nother discussion though I’m sure.

    Read More
  83. @JayMan

    Good god, man. Are eastern and western Germany biologically predisposed to communism and capitalism respectively? The koreas? Athens and Sparta?
     
    Germania’s Seed?

    Stop Saying North and South Koreans Are Necessarily Completely Identical Populations

    “l’explication de l’idéologie” | hbd chick


    Accidents of history are rarely given the weight they deserve.
     
    Where do historical accidents come from?

    You really need someone to intellectually challenge you, instead of praising you for every little utterance of yours
     
    I hope you have luck finding one to do so.

    1. The Germany article says nothing about HBD. Occam’s razor would make most normal folk attribute this to the tremendous differences in political and religious climates these areas have experienced over the last millennium. Catholicism vs Protestantism, Prussia vs Austria-Hungary vs little city states, Germanic homogeneity vs exposure to the Slavic borderzone and so on.

    2. The Korea article is brazen in its abuse of statistical reasoning. Do you know what a Null hypothesis is? If you are claiming there is a genetic difference, it is incumbent upon YOU to prove it. I do not need to prove similarity – the null hypothesis is ALWAYS the baseline assumption in a Frequentist approach. And the overwhelming Bayesian prior, especially in this case where a fairly homogenous country was split apart by a war, is that the people of the DPRK and the ROK have very similar genetics.

    3. Historical accidents come from just that, accidents. Winter snowstorms which halt an army’s march. Language barriers which prevent the spread of ideologies. Staple crops which are differentially affected by blight in any given year. Monsoon rains which fail in some areas and not in others, causing peasant revolts here and not there. Empires which exhaust their resources on one war, and find themselves overwhelmed by a new threat.

    And what is not caused by accident, can be explained by culture. Europeans were not necessarily predisposed to Christianity, they just happened to be under the rule of an empire which was taken over by Christians. Iranians were not predisposed to either Zoroastrianism or Islam, they just had it rammed down their throats by their emperors.

    Was there something genetic about West Punjabis that made them Muslim, while East Punjabis became Sikhs? HBD explains West Bengalis being Hindu, while East Bengalis became Muslim? If the Reconquista hadn’t succeeded, you would have said there was something genetic about Spaniards that made them predisposed to accepting Islam. Now you would say there was something genetic about Spaniards that made them unsuited to Islam, while their cousins across the straits of Gibraltar were a better fit.

    None of those explanations can be completely falsified, but it takes a special kind of kook to think that genetic factors are the major explanations for a region’s politico-religious 0utlay.

    There are no grand theories to be drawn from these random patterns. You and hbdchick remind me of children looking up at the clouds and imagining flowers and puppies and faces.

    Again, you have interesting ideas. But consider running it by someone with a passing knowledge of scientific analysis before publishing it here. God knows we have enough balderdash from that weird Mexican guy and other assorted loonies on Unz.com. Sailer, Razib and Derbyshire keep the place afloat, but they risk getting drowned out by all this baseless stuff.

    Read More
    • Replies: @JayMan

    Again, you have interesting ideas. But consider running it by someone with a passing knowledge of scientific analysis before publishing it here.
     
    You're probably better off to just stop talking, as you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Go back to my Welcome page and familiarize yourself with everything you see there and all it links to before you comment again. That wasn't a suggestion.
    , @szopen
    Abotu null hypothesis: you are right, except for one thing: we would disagree what is a null hypothesis. For me (and I presume for Jayman too) the null hypothesis is taht if you have two different regions, then there can be genetical differences between them, including perhaps differences resulting in a differences in distribution of different psychological trait. This is a unll hypothesis for me, because it is so obviously consistent with both the real world observation, and is logically resulting from my understanding of evolution and genetics. My null hypothesis is that ANY human populations will differ (even neighbouring villages) as long as there is any barrier (social, geographical) which prevents those populations from constant interbreeding. The claim that South and North Koreans are the same is - for me - the claim so outlandish, so it would require a really convincing proof. For me, the burden of proof is on you.
  84. @Anonymous

    Nonetheless, the Fields Medal statistics clearly show East Asians (and Eastern Europeans) lagging well behind NW Europeans in top accomplishments. This confirms that their worse Nobel performance isn’t just due to institutional barriers or other social limitation, but lower ability to make novel advancements.
     
    Ashkenazim surpass NW Europeans on these sorts of measures. Also, abstract and scientific thinking goes back to the ancient Greeks. The origin of many extant sciences is credited to Aristotle, and the kind of mathematized model building that characterizes modern science is present in Hellenistic Greece and Near East. No historians of science credit science to NW Europeans. It's credited to Mediterranean populations.

    Ashkenazim surpass NW Europeans on these sorts of measures.

    Perhaps this is true, but you still have to remember that the very founding mitochondrial DNA of the Ashkenazi genome is Italian (Northern Italian, which would make them Wasp, if I remember correctly). They really are an “in-betweener” group.

    There is no denying the incredible impact of Jews historically, particularly when it comes to ideas, but there’s a plethora of issues which makes accounting for them through any universal system or rubric problematic, to put it mildly.

    Also, abstract and scientific thinking goes back to the ancient Greeks. The origin of many extant sciences is credited to Aristotle, and the kind of mathematized model building that characterizes modern science is present in Hellenistic Greece and Near East. No historians of science credit science to NW Europeans. It’s credited to Mediterranean populations.

    I think someone else addressed this, but yeah you could do some more research, your definitions seem to be a bit out of context.

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  85. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @JayMan

    You should sort out the IQ maps in this post. They contradict each other.
     
    Look closer. And maybe read closer, too.

    Look at what? I’m looking at Europe in images 3, 4 and 10. They contradict each other.

    Read More
    • Replies: @JayMan

    Look at what? I’m looking at Europe in images 3, 4 and 10. They contradict each other.
     
    The regional IQ maps are the more fine-grained display of European IQ scores. Think harder, and maybe read some links given here. I'd advise you to do so before commenting again.
  86. @JayMan

    I am reading the first diagram correctly, Russia is more inbred than Pakistan ( a country where first-cousin marriage is the norm).
     
    The axes added by me represent a general trend, not an definitive scale. Russia is not more inbred than Pakistan, but it is more so than those on the right side of the plot.

    Can we agree to stop using Nobel Prizes as an indicator of intelligence. It’s horribly misleading. It’s like using American Idol winners to declare those with musical talent.

    Read More
    • Replies: @JayMan

    Can we agree to stop using Nobel Prizes as an indicator of intelligence.
     
    No. Next.
  87. @Rdm
    I read your edited post and agreed that if we brought up certain events happened from time immemorial, we can argue forever which event is which.

    Not nitpicking over semantics, however I gathered that you are saying Evolution happened a lot faster these days than what had happened a thousand years ago. Therefore, NW Europeans have appeared to evolve scientifically and artistically than the rest of the racial groups during the past centuries, supported by their wealth, achievement, IQ, Nobel, etc etc.

    This is a summary of your post in one paragraph. It seems plausible and ego-stroking article for NW Europeans for sure, assuming a human with an average life-span of 70 years, can now look back 400 years of their achievement and feel good whatever that stroke.

    I will argue 2 issues; Evolution and NW Europeans.

    Evolution happens every second, but the speed it evolves remains the same. Either you go back in time 1000 or 5000 years, you will only understand when you put yourself into contemporary subjects. Since this is scientific perspective, bear with me one this. When you think back what happened an hour ago, you don't actually need an hour in order to "reflect" or "think back". Within a flash of second, you remember what happened an hour ago. The same goes for thinking about what happened yesterday. You don't need 24 hours to think back what happened yesterday. Now think about what happened a year ago. Do you need 365 days to think back? Memory might be blurry, the fact of the matter here is all those time scale: 1 hour, 24 hours, 365 days, you spent those times as time goes by. Your grand grand parents who had lived on this Earth also went by those time scale. An hour they had lived thousands years ago on this Earth is the same hour we are experience these days. But to think back time immemorial, we don't need to travel back, we just need a flash of second to reflect what had happened previously. That's when this "Evolution proceeds quicker than you think" problem kicks in.

    Do you think a human who had lived 10,000 years ago evolve slowly than we do today? The evolutionary angle we are now looking at is so simple; we tend to look at it from scientific advancement and materialistic achievement. Now pause here. Let's reflect.

    You wake up in the morning, have breakfast, read the news, go for work, walk up straight, smile at other pedestrians you come across. That's normal for today. Now put yourself back in stone age or whatever age. You woke up in a cave, the cave that you arduously searched in the wilderness to protect yourself because you had to run to death the other day from the wild animals chasing you. You felt some sensation called "hunger" in your stomach. You had no idea what to put something in your mouth. So you grabbed a bunch of leaves protruding from the stone cracks, put into your mouth, and that's how you started experimenting with different kinds of edible things putting into your mouth.

    You went out to navigate the territory; you came across another feather that looked exactly like you. Are you going to smile at him? or are you going to be anxious that he's going to kill you and eat you? or how do you communicate? by British English? ok that's a joke.

    So coming back to our question of evolution and its speed; the simple thing that we take for granted these days, waking up without worries, be able to smile at fellow human beings, communicating through language, traveling from destination to destination, they all constitute "Evolutionary Achievement" over thousands of years.

    From your standpoint, you are discounting those evolutionary achievement with the current evolution. For eg., developing a bona fide language for the first time in human history for communication will take years to become functionally effective. But the offshoot of the existing language is merely "evolution", unless it is entirely different in nature. So NW Europeans, did they develop their communication language earlier than the rest of the human race? like they became verbal, began asking questions out of curiosity?

    The bottom line is Evolution proceeds as the same speed as it did thousands of years ago. What you observed from NW Europeans are not evolutionary traits. They are offshoots of pre-existing conditions, or vis a vis accumulated wealth, which I commented in next.

    Evolution happens every second, but the speed it evolves remains the same.

    Do you bother to read the things I point you to? Check out The 10,000 Year Explosion for a discussion on Fisherian acceleration.

    But then, from the rest of your comment, it doesn’t sound like you understand the first thing about evolution or natural selection to begin with. Perhaps you may want to start more basic.

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  88. @thinkingabout it
    1. The Germany article says nothing about HBD. Occam's razor would make most normal folk attribute this to the tremendous differences in political and religious climates these areas have experienced over the last millennium. Catholicism vs Protestantism, Prussia vs Austria-Hungary vs little city states, Germanic homogeneity vs exposure to the Slavic borderzone and so on.

    2. The Korea article is brazen in its abuse of statistical reasoning. Do you know what a Null hypothesis is? If you are claiming there is a genetic difference, it is incumbent upon YOU to prove it. I do not need to prove similarity - the null hypothesis is ALWAYS the baseline assumption in a Frequentist approach. And the overwhelming Bayesian prior, especially in this case where a fairly homogenous country was split apart by a war, is that the people of the DPRK and the ROK have very similar genetics.

    3. Historical accidents come from just that, accidents. Winter snowstorms which halt an army's march. Language barriers which prevent the spread of ideologies. Staple crops which are differentially affected by blight in any given year. Monsoon rains which fail in some areas and not in others, causing peasant revolts here and not there. Empires which exhaust their resources on one war, and find themselves overwhelmed by a new threat.

    And what is not caused by accident, can be explained by culture. Europeans were not necessarily predisposed to Christianity, they just happened to be under the rule of an empire which was taken over by Christians. Iranians were not predisposed to either Zoroastrianism or Islam, they just had it rammed down their throats by their emperors.

    Was there something genetic about West Punjabis that made them Muslim, while East Punjabis became Sikhs? HBD explains West Bengalis being Hindu, while East Bengalis became Muslim? If the Reconquista hadn't succeeded, you would have said there was something genetic about Spaniards that made them predisposed to accepting Islam. Now you would say there was something genetic about Spaniards that made them unsuited to Islam, while their cousins across the straits of Gibraltar were a better fit.

    None of those explanations can be completely falsified, but it takes a special kind of kook to think that genetic factors are the major explanations for a region's politico-religious 0utlay.

    There are no grand theories to be drawn from these random patterns. You and hbdchick remind me of children looking up at the clouds and imagining flowers and puppies and faces.

    Again, you have interesting ideas. But consider running it by someone with a passing knowledge of scientific analysis before publishing it here. God knows we have enough balderdash from that weird Mexican guy and other assorted loonies on Unz.com. Sailer, Razib and Derbyshire keep the place afloat, but they risk getting drowned out by all this baseless stuff.

    Again, you have interesting ideas. But consider running it by someone with a passing knowledge of scientific analysis before publishing it here.

    You’re probably better off to just stop talking, as you have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about. Go back to my Welcome page and familiarize yourself with everything you see there and all it links to before you comment again. That wasn’t a suggestion.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    What seems to be missed here is the additive power of "accidents" / "self-selection" / different cultural norms AND genetic drift over time caused by these factors. It's not genetics OR culture - surely can both function together, amplifying each others' effects. The issue is we are only seeing half the story in mainstream discourse (Jayman / hbdchick etc excluded). This means WEIRD societies keep coming up with stupid ideas (liberal democracy in Iraq people, double quick, snap snap etc) because we are wilfully ignoring the genetic aspects of human behaviour that can't be totally altered overnight.
  89. @Anonymous
    Look at what? I'm looking at Europe in images 3, 4 and 10. They contradict each other.

    Look at what? I’m looking at Europe in images 3, 4 and 10. They contradict each other.

    The regional IQ maps are the more fine-grained display of European IQ scores. Think harder, and maybe read some links given here. I’d advise you to do so before commenting again.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Look at the Balkans. According to image 10, the whole region shouldn't be the same color in image 3, and the yellow region in image 4 is not right either. For example, image 10 shows Croatia and Hungary as exactly the same, yet in image 4 Croatia's approximate IQ is given as 90 and Hungary's as 100. Image 4 also shows Romania's approximate IQ as 100, and Bulgaria's as 90, but image 10 tells us Bulgarians are the more intelligent ones. Which is it then?
  90. @Hugo
    Can we agree to stop using Nobel Prizes as an indicator of intelligence. It's horribly misleading. It's like using American Idol winners to declare those with musical talent.

    Can we agree to stop using Nobel Prizes as an indicator of intelligence.

    No. Next.

    Read More
  91. @JayMan

    Good god, man. Are eastern and western Germany biologically predisposed to communism and capitalism respectively? The koreas? Athens and Sparta?
     
    Germania’s Seed?

    Stop Saying North and South Koreans Are Necessarily Completely Identical Populations

    “l’explication de l’idéologie” | hbd chick


    Accidents of history are rarely given the weight they deserve.
     
    Where do historical accidents come from?

    You really need someone to intellectually challenge you, instead of praising you for every little utterance of yours
     
    I hope you have luck finding one to do so.

    Stop Saying North and South Koreans Are Necessarily Completely Identical Populations

    Ugh, what in the world am I living that North and South Koreans, East and West Germans are biologically and genetically as distinct as Blacks and Whites?

    Read More
    • Replies: @JayMan

    Ugh, what in the world am I living that North and South Koreans, East and West Germans are biologically and genetically as distinct as Blacks and Whites?
     
    #ExcludedMiddleFallacy.
  92. @Rdm

    Stop Saying North and South Koreans Are Necessarily Completely Identical Populations
     
    Ugh, what in the world am I living that North and South Koreans, East and West Germans are biologically and genetically as distinct as Blacks and Whites?

    Ugh, what in the world am I living that North and South Koreans, East and West Germans are biologically and genetically as distinct as Blacks and Whites?

    #ExcludedMiddleFallacy.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Emil Kirkegaard
    The excluded middle is not a fallacy, it's a theorem of standard logics. You mean black or white/false dilemma fallacy. http://www.fallacyfiles.org/eitheror.html
  93. Gonna trash some comments, because they’re getting really dumb. If yours doesn’t make the cut, that’s why.

    Read More
  94. Where is my other comment? on NW Europeans? The special kind of race that we now need to put them into “Endangered species” list. Without them, we are not sure of our scientific future ahead.

    Read More
  95. […] got a cool new post up on clannishness and western inventiveness! here are a few thoughts from […]

    Read More
  96. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @JayMan

    Look at what? I’m looking at Europe in images 3, 4 and 10. They contradict each other.
     
    The regional IQ maps are the more fine-grained display of European IQ scores. Think harder, and maybe read some links given here. I'd advise you to do so before commenting again.

    Look at the Balkans. According to image 10, the whole region shouldn’t be the same color in image 3, and the yellow region in image 4 is not right either. For example, image 10 shows Croatia and Hungary as exactly the same, yet in image 4 Croatia’s approximate IQ is given as 90 and Hungary’s as 100. Image 4 also shows Romania’s approximate IQ as 100, and Bulgaria’s as 90, but image 10 tells us Bulgarians are the more intelligent ones. Which is it then?

    Read More
  97. Jayman, if you want to adopt Razib’s haughty attitude towards dissenting commenters, you need to back it up with the same rigor he uses in his arguments.
    Instead, you’re edging closer and closer to Koanicsoul levels of fact-freeness.

    Read More
    • Agree: Max Payne
    • Replies: @anon
    I think you can see the pattern most clearly when you look at the difference between the two extremes of first cousin marriage: Arab world and NW Europe.

    If the basic idea is correct the differences between populations between those two extremes will vary greatly due to local factors (and maybe over time also).
  98. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    There are some major problems with your first graph. Germany has just as many Catholics as Protestants, so to lump it in to the Protestant category is very misleading. Switzerland and Netherlands have MORE Catholics than Protestants, so putting them in that section over the other is not accurate at all.

    Read More
  99. anon says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @Rdm
    I read your edited post and agreed that if we brought up certain events happened from time immemorial, we can argue forever which event is which.

    Not nitpicking over semantics, however I gathered that you are saying Evolution happened a lot faster these days than what had happened a thousand years ago. Therefore, NW Europeans have appeared to evolve scientifically and artistically than the rest of the racial groups during the past centuries, supported by their wealth, achievement, IQ, Nobel, etc etc.

    This is a summary of your post in one paragraph. It seems plausible and ego-stroking article for NW Europeans for sure, assuming a human with an average life-span of 70 years, can now look back 400 years of their achievement and feel good whatever that stroke.

    I will argue 2 issues; Evolution and NW Europeans.

    Evolution happens every second, but the speed it evolves remains the same. Either you go back in time 1000 or 5000 years, you will only understand when you put yourself into contemporary subjects. Since this is scientific perspective, bear with me one this. When you think back what happened an hour ago, you don't actually need an hour in order to "reflect" or "think back". Within a flash of second, you remember what happened an hour ago. The same goes for thinking about what happened yesterday. You don't need 24 hours to think back what happened yesterday. Now think about what happened a year ago. Do you need 365 days to think back? Memory might be blurry, the fact of the matter here is all those time scale: 1 hour, 24 hours, 365 days, you spent those times as time goes by. Your grand grand parents who had lived on this Earth also went by those time scale. An hour they had lived thousands years ago on this Earth is the same hour we are experience these days. But to think back time immemorial, we don't need to travel back, we just need a flash of second to reflect what had happened previously. That's when this "Evolution proceeds quicker than you think" problem kicks in.

    Do you think a human who had lived 10,000 years ago evolve slowly than we do today? The evolutionary angle we are now looking at is so simple; we tend to look at it from scientific advancement and materialistic achievement. Now pause here. Let's reflect.

    You wake up in the morning, have breakfast, read the news, go for work, walk up straight, smile at other pedestrians you come across. That's normal for today. Now put yourself back in stone age or whatever age. You woke up in a cave, the cave that you arduously searched in the wilderness to protect yourself because you had to run to death the other day from the wild animals chasing you. You felt some sensation called "hunger" in your stomach. You had no idea what to put something in your mouth. So you grabbed a bunch of leaves protruding from the stone cracks, put into your mouth, and that's how you started experimenting with different kinds of edible things putting into your mouth.

    You went out to navigate the territory; you came across another feather that looked exactly like you. Are you going to smile at him? or are you going to be anxious that he's going to kill you and eat you? or how do you communicate? by British English? ok that's a joke.

    So coming back to our question of evolution and its speed; the simple thing that we take for granted these days, waking up without worries, be able to smile at fellow human beings, communicating through language, traveling from destination to destination, they all constitute "Evolutionary Achievement" over thousands of years.

    From your standpoint, you are discounting those evolutionary achievement with the current evolution. For eg., developing a bona fide language for the first time in human history for communication will take years to become functionally effective. But the offshoot of the existing language is merely "evolution", unless it is entirely different in nature. So NW Europeans, did they develop their communication language earlier than the rest of the human race? like they became verbal, began asking questions out of curiosity?

    The bottom line is Evolution proceeds as the same speed as it did thousands of years ago. What you observed from NW Europeans are not evolutionary traits. They are offshoots of pre-existing conditions, or vis a vis accumulated wealth, which I commented in next.

    Evolution happens every second, but the speed it evolves remains the same.

    Evolution speed depends on effective population size: more people = more random mutations.

    It will also depend on selection pressure. If the environment remains the same then even if the population increases there may be no reason to select for the new mutations.

    If the environment changes e.g. due to the change in marriage pattern in NW Europe, then that might create new selection pressures on both old and any new random mutations.

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    • Replies: @Rdm
    Agreed on the population size and selection pressure.

    What I emphasized previously here is the claim that hereditary nature of NW Europeans have more creative and scientific tendency compared to rest of the world. Looking at the maps show that all the criteria used in this post (Nobel, Fields Medals, Pubs, Patents) made the NW europeans having more scientific achievement which conveniently translated into "More creative, and more Weirdo" traits.

    What I argue is it's not hereditary tendency, rather it reflects the pre-existing condition of wealth those countries have accumulated over the years. There's nothing hereditary nature of those NW Europeans making them more creative. It's the "Wealth" that serves as a foundation for their curiosity to make it reality.

    Now let's say if we test North and South Koreans after 70 years of separation, do South Koreans evolve faster than North Koreans? in terms of their looks, their features, their language?

    South Koreans will stand out in "Creativity", "Innovation" compared to North Koreans when we consider Samsung, LG, LED display used in iPhones, and Kia, Hyundai automobile, etc etc etc. Guess what, if we compare South Koreans and North Koreans in Publications and Patents, National Medals, we can imagine South Korea will have more of those achievements when we put into a map. Does it translate that South Koreans evolve faster than North Koreans? or South Koreans become more creative due to selection pressure?

    It's clear it's the "Wealth" that propels South Koreans to pursue their creative idea and curiosity to make them reality. And we are only seeing South Koreans economic boom after WWII. It's not even a century yet.

    But those NW Europeans Dutch, French, Germany, British, they once had plethora of colonies in other parts of the world. You can imagine how much "wealth" they would have accumulated over time. That's why we're seeing the lopsided distribution of this "Fields Medals, Pubs, Patents" in those Europeans countries.

    Fields Medals, Pubs, Patents do not translate into Hereditary nature of "Creativity" and "Curiosity". They represent "Wealth" as a foundation.

  100. East Asians are excellent in the ability to concentrate. That is, to neutralize the effects of the personality in relation to cognition. This is one reason to do better in cognitive tests.

    Less adhd.

    http://www.pyragraph.com/2013/11/creative-loosen-frontal-lobe/

    Creativity is based primarily on ability to capture unusual perceptions or remote associations and in this sense, you need to be without centralized attention, because centralized attention mean ”concentrates in a narrow perceptions”. Usually when we are decentralized, it is because we are being bombarded by a lot of perceptions of various kinds. In ” non-creative ”, this can cause torpor.

    The ability to concentrate is based on the exact opposite of creativity, and the East Asian are actually very good at it.

    Creativity, especially scientific and objectively usual or utilitarian, primarily based on the production of different and interesting ideas

    and then

    in its development, where the intelligence becomes increasingly necessary.

    So the question on the smaller creative capacity of East Asians, on average, in relation to European Caucasians, should be modified or diversified

    ” Why they are less creative ?? ”

    for

    ” What have they gained from it ?? ”

    The ability to concentrate, to isolate the effects of personality on cognition.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Yes. Concentration vs Creativity seems like a better explanation to me. Note how when people take drugs such as modafinil their concentration increases while their creativity decreases.

    I'm not buying the idea that Asians are not good at abstract thinking when all evidence except for number of Field's medals won points to them excelling at Math.

    Proposed explanations:
    1. Q factor, might also call it passion for understanding.

    2. Concentration vs Creativity.

    3. Spatial IQ vs Analytical IQ.

    4. Abstract thinking ability. Does this overlap with #3?

    5. Socioeconomic.

    Whatever the reason for why almost all of mankind's innovation has come from the west, it probably will not be as important in determining global power as it used to be since new technology is now quickly copied.
  101. In relation to Eastern thought.

    The Buddhist oriental culture says that ” everything is connected ”, while Western culture says that ” things exist separate from each other. ”

    I do not know the term holistic is well spent, because thinking holistically, also mean, think about it all, including the details. It would be the very act of thinking about the truth or reality.

    The idea that everything is connected is very beautiful and true in parts. However, I do not doubt that this mentality has shaped the eastern ” collective ” consciousness and eliminated most of divergent thinkers who are essentially individualistic, not necessarily in the selfish sense.

    The Great Eastern wave is always in the same direction, while the large wave Caucasian most closely resembles the breaking of waves on the rocks of a mediterranean beach, dark gray sand, closer to you.

    Environmental factors are also very important to explain why Scandinavia not have been so creative at the time of the Italian Renaissance, for example.

    I think, an elite that want to develop ” their ” nation, can contribute considerably to creating conditions for the nurture genius, why not just have a favorable genetic stock, even if it is essential, it is also important to have a meritocratic mechanism highly efficient you can find them and put them in comfortable social situation so that they can develop their talents and ideas.

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  102. Ancient Greeks were quite different than modern Greeks. And how clannish were the ancients?

    Do you have any books or articles that discuss this? I’ve always wondered if there was a standard-HBD explanation for the huge differences in intelligence and personality between modern and ancient Greeks. Any idea as to what precisely happened?

    Read More
    • Replies: @JayMan

    I’ve always wondered if there was a standard-HBD explanation for the huge differences in intelligence and personality between modern and ancient Greeks.
     
    See HBD Chick's post linked at the bottom of this one.
    , @Smiddy

    Do you have any books or articles that discuss this? I’ve always wondered if there was a standard-HBD explanation for the huge differences in intelligence and personality between modern and ancient Greeks. Any idea as to what precisely happened?
     
    This very website has an article on it.
  103. @valiance

    Ancient Greeks were quite different than modern Greeks. And how clannish were the ancients?
     
    Do you have any books or articles that discuss this? I've always wondered if there was a standard-HBD explanation for the huge differences in intelligence and personality between modern and ancient Greeks. Any idea as to what precisely happened?

    I’ve always wondered if there was a standard-HBD explanation for the huge differences in intelligence and personality between modern and ancient Greeks.

    See HBD Chick’s post linked at the bottom of this one.

    Read More
  104. @anon

    Evolution happens every second, but the speed it evolves remains the same.
     
    Evolution speed depends on effective population size: more people = more random mutations.

    It will also depend on selection pressure. If the environment remains the same then even if the population increases there may be no reason to select for the new mutations.

    If the environment changes e.g. due to the change in marriage pattern in NW Europe, then that might create new selection pressures on both old and any new random mutations.

    Agreed on the population size and selection pressure.

    What I emphasized previously here is the claim that hereditary nature of NW Europeans have more creative and scientific tendency compared to rest of the world. Looking at the maps show that all the criteria used in this post (Nobel, Fields Medals, Pubs, Patents) made the NW europeans having more scientific achievement which conveniently translated into “More creative, and more Weirdo” traits.

    What I argue is it’s not hereditary tendency, rather it reflects the pre-existing condition of wealth those countries have accumulated over the years. There’s nothing hereditary nature of those NW Europeans making them more creative. It’s the “Wealth” that serves as a foundation for their curiosity to make it reality.

    Now let’s say if we test North and South Koreans after 70 years of separation, do South Koreans evolve faster than North Koreans? in terms of their looks, their features, their language?

    South Koreans will stand out in “Creativity”, “Innovation” compared to North Koreans when we consider Samsung, LG, LED display used in iPhones, and Kia, Hyundai automobile, etc etc etc. Guess what, if we compare South Koreans and North Koreans in Publications and Patents, National Medals, we can imagine South Korea will have more of those achievements when we put into a map. Does it translate that South Koreans evolve faster than North Koreans? or South Koreans become more creative due to selection pressure?

    It’s clear it’s the “Wealth” that propels South Koreans to pursue their creative idea and curiosity to make them reality. And we are only seeing South Koreans economic boom after WWII. It’s not even a century yet.

    But those NW Europeans Dutch, French, Germany, British, they once had plethora of colonies in other parts of the world. You can imagine how much “wealth” they would have accumulated over time. That’s why we’re seeing the lopsided distribution of this “Fields Medals, Pubs, Patents” in those Europeans countries.

    Fields Medals, Pubs, Patents do not translate into Hereditary nature of “Creativity” and “Curiosity”. They represent “Wealth” as a foundation.

    Read More
    • Replies: @JayMan

    What I emphasized previously here is the claim that hereditary nature of NW Europeans have more creative and scientific tendency compared to rest of the world. Looking at the maps show that all the criteria used in this post (Nobel, Fields Medals, Pubs, Patents) made the NW europeans having more scientific achievement which conveniently translated into “More creative, and more Weirdo” traits.

    What I argue is it’s not hereditary tendency, rather it reflects the pre-existing condition of wealth those countries have accumulated over the years. There’s nothing hereditary nature of those NW Europeans making them more creative.
     

    So why then does Japan lag? Why does Finland lag in Nobels?

    And why did the NW European countries take off in discovery so much ahead of everyone? (See here) After all, where does wealth come from?

    You need to learn some behavioral genetics. See my Welcome page for a starter list, or see the links at the bottom of the page.

    This is your final comment on this claim. Do not assert this claim again here.

    , @Smiddy

    What I emphasized previously here is the claim that hereditary nature of NW Europeans have more creative and scientific tendency compared to rest of the world. Looking at the maps show that all the criteria used in this post (Nobel, Fields Medals, Pubs, Patents) made the NW europeans having more scientific achievement which conveniently translated into “More creative, and more Weirdo” traits.
     
    This is such a Boasian point of view... And its such a joke at this point. You don't even have to know anything about HBD or genetics, you just have to know history, to see how wrong this point is...

    Rdm, you keep saying things that prove how poorly informed you are. Why not actually read the material in question first, and then ask questions later? That way you will atleast seem more informed.
    , @anon
    I'd say the basic idea presented here - that the change in marriage culture in NW Europe in the early medieval period had a dramatic effect over time - is correct. Although no doubt a lot of the details will need to be hashed out.

    I think it was those changes that somehow lead to the initial increase in wealth - whether through a genetic effect or through creating a society where inventiveness was promoted - although I'd agree once it got started that would create a cycle where the increase in wealth fuels itself.

    The thing is there have been many empires in history and they all start with the soon to be imperial power having some kind of advantage over their neighbors. This is only disputed when discussing the European empires of the colonial era so to me it seems like a political argument.
  105. @Rdm
    Agreed on the population size and selection pressure.

    What I emphasized previously here is the claim that hereditary nature of NW Europeans have more creative and scientific tendency compared to rest of the world. Looking at the maps show that all the criteria used in this post (Nobel, Fields Medals, Pubs, Patents) made the NW europeans having more scientific achievement which conveniently translated into "More creative, and more Weirdo" traits.

    What I argue is it's not hereditary tendency, rather it reflects the pre-existing condition of wealth those countries have accumulated over the years. There's nothing hereditary nature of those NW Europeans making them more creative. It's the "Wealth" that serves as a foundation for their curiosity to make it reality.

    Now let's say if we test North and South Koreans after 70 years of separation, do South Koreans evolve faster than North Koreans? in terms of their looks, their features, their language?

    South Koreans will stand out in "Creativity", "Innovation" compared to North Koreans when we consider Samsung, LG, LED display used in iPhones, and Kia, Hyundai automobile, etc etc etc. Guess what, if we compare South Koreans and North Koreans in Publications and Patents, National Medals, we can imagine South Korea will have more of those achievements when we put into a map. Does it translate that South Koreans evolve faster than North Koreans? or South Koreans become more creative due to selection pressure?

    It's clear it's the "Wealth" that propels South Koreans to pursue their creative idea and curiosity to make them reality. And we are only seeing South Koreans economic boom after WWII. It's not even a century yet.

    But those NW Europeans Dutch, French, Germany, British, they once had plethora of colonies in other parts of the world. You can imagine how much "wealth" they would have accumulated over time. That's why we're seeing the lopsided distribution of this "Fields Medals, Pubs, Patents" in those Europeans countries.

    Fields Medals, Pubs, Patents do not translate into Hereditary nature of "Creativity" and "Curiosity". They represent "Wealth" as a foundation.

    What I emphasized previously here is the claim that hereditary nature of NW Europeans have more creative and scientific tendency compared to rest of the world. Looking at the maps show that all the criteria used in this post (Nobel, Fields Medals, Pubs, Patents) made the NW europeans having more scientific achievement which conveniently translated into “More creative, and more Weirdo” traits.

    What I argue is it’s not hereditary tendency, rather it reflects the pre-existing condition of wealth those countries have accumulated over the years. There’s nothing hereditary nature of those NW Europeans making them more creative.

    So why then does Japan lag? Why does Finland lag in Nobels?

    And why did the NW European countries take off in discovery so much ahead of everyone? (See here) After all, where does wealth come from?

    You need to learn some behavioral genetics. See my Welcome page for a starter list, or see the links at the bottom of the page.

    This is your final comment on this claim. Do not assert this claim again here.

    Read More
  106. Hey Jayman,

    If one were to rank the three main racial groups on HEXACO, do you think the order would be as follows? (from high to low):

    Honesty-Humility: whites, yellows, blacks
    Emotionality: yellows, whites, blacks
    EXtroversion: blacks, whites, yellows
    Agreeableness: yellows, whites, blacks
    Conscientiousness: yellows, whites, blacks
    Openness: whites, yellows, blacks

    HH and Openness break up Rushton’s old “yellow, white, black” ordering.

    Read More
    • Replies: @JayMan

    If one were to rank the three main racial groups on HEXACO, do you think the order would be as follows? (from high to low):
     
    Remember, there's White, and then there's White. Eastern Europeans aren't exactly high H and high O (or high A for that matter).

    I expected more than that naive oversimplification from you...

  107. @JayMan

    For one, I’m not sure we can say Northwestern Europeans are the most creative people in the world. Blacks have demonstrated substantial creativity, particularly in music and entertainment.

    I would argue that blacks’ “creativity” is mostly a function of their high extroversion. In the fields where they predominate, like popular music and comedy, they tend to specialize in certain areas: in popular music, mostly improvisational (jazz) or syncopated dance music (R&B, hip-hop).
     

    I don't think it's simply a matter of extroversion.

    Of course, you don’t see see too many in Swedish death metal.
     
    About that (almost added this to the post):

    https://twitter.com/JayMan471/statuses/508328358669987840

    Same pattern as the rest. I know some fool out there will claim that the way to win more Nobel prizes is to listen to more heavy metal.


    As a final note: you’ve laid out brilliantly that Westerners = reductionistic, and Easterners = holistic. But what explains Westerners fascination with Eastern holism since the 1960s, particularly among those high in openness? (in the form of Eastern religion, New Age, systems theory, vegetarianism, etc.)
     
    Yup.

    Oh, second final note: This all makes perfect sense, but it would be good get to get as much data as possible to back up your assertions (which you’ve done a lot already); people will claim that you’re inventing ad-hoc reasons for East Asian weakness in sciences despite their higher intelligence. And then they’ll say you’re raaaaay-cist!
     
    The data speak for themselves.

    Oddly enough heavy metal seems to have become something of a middle class nerd/bohemian thing – it also seems to haved cross-fertilised alot with the upper middle class nerd world of progressive rock. The working class tend to prefer classic heavy rock like ACDC, while lower middle classic web designers listen to Opeth and Dream Theater.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Smiddy

    Oddly enough heavy metal seems to have become something of a middle class nerd/bohemian thing – it also seems to haved cross-fertilised alot with the upper middle class nerd world of progressive rock. The working class tend to prefer classic heavy rock like ACDC, while lower middle classic web designers listen to Opeth and Dream Theater.
     
    The progressive metal scene is the future of music, pioneered by the like of Meshuggah and Misha Mansoor. Uncharacteristic to "traditionally" Western music it is dissonant, and of course, it majorly started in Sweden. It is also majorly composed of whites, and in my extensive experience, non-whites are pretty well integrated (or dispersed) into "metal" culture.

    Luckily metal has been growing and now is bigger than pop. Because honestly, if there is ever a revolution, metal would go hand-in-hand with it (songs like Thy Art Is Murder's "Holy War" or Molotov Solution's "Injustice For All" come to mind). Their lyrics tend to be brutally honest. If there was a genre of music that could every possibly unite future generations of Westerners in some semblance, this is it.

  108. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @Santoculto
    East Asians are excellent in the ability to concentrate. That is, to neutralize the effects of the personality in relation to cognition. This is one reason to do better in cognitive tests.

    Less adhd.

    http://www.pyragraph.com/2013/11/creative-loosen-frontal-lobe/


    Creativity is based primarily on ability to capture unusual perceptions or remote associations and in this sense, you need to be without centralized attention, because centralized attention mean ''concentrates in a narrow perceptions''. Usually when we are decentralized, it is because we are being bombarded by a lot of perceptions of various kinds. In '' non-creative '', this can cause torpor.

    The ability to concentrate is based on the exact opposite of creativity, and the East Asian are actually very good at it.

    Creativity, especially scientific and objectively usual or utilitarian, primarily based on the production of different and interesting ideas

    and then

    in its development, where the intelligence becomes increasingly necessary.

    So the question on the smaller creative capacity of East Asians, on average, in relation to European Caucasians, should be modified or diversified

    '' Why they are less creative ?? ''

    for

    '' What have they gained from it ?? ''

    The ability to concentrate, to isolate the effects of personality on cognition.

    Yes. Concentration vs Creativity seems like a better explanation to me. Note how when people take drugs such as modafinil their concentration increases while their creativity decreases.

    I’m not buying the idea that Asians are not good at abstract thinking when all evidence except for number of Field’s medals won points to them excelling at Math.

    Proposed explanations:
    1. Q factor, might also call it passion for understanding.

    2. Concentration vs Creativity.

    3. Spatial IQ vs Analytical IQ.

    4. Abstract thinking ability. Does this overlap with #3?

    5. Socioeconomic.

    Whatever the reason for why almost all of mankind’s innovation has come from the west, it probably will not be as important in determining global power as it used to be since new technology is now quickly copied.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Santoculto
    Yes. I think we all have a point in our spirit that shines brighter and that determines our path. I determined this' point g '' as intrinsic motivation. However, it is also necessary that this motivation is spontaneous and by intellectual and / or cognitive nature.

    The conformity factor seems to have a very strong role in this phenomenon, because almost all creative types will be more energetic and nonconformists, although often they will do it stupidly, as with many artists and left-wing intellectuals.

    Nonconformity is not synonymous with wisdom, intelligence in its most direct and gross manifestation. This explains why so many nonconformists end up embracing toxic ideologies. Because one does not have to lead to another. Often, they do so because of its overflowing energy and lack of extrinsic focus, than for real understanding of the events that encapsulate.

    Leftism is not completely wrong, in fact, is far from. The problem is that to get understand it, you need more neurons. Combine leftism with democracy and you have chaos.

    Extrinsic motivation is everything that is not entirely related to our spirit. Asian east, although they may have intrinsic motivations more pronounceable, are good at focusing for example to public examinations and school tests. The ability to dissociate the strong influence of personality on intelligence, in my opinion, a new concept for concentration, is one of the most common and typical cognitive characteristics between them.

    In other words, strong personality of people may be less likely to achieve control '' fox seven tails '' (search on google for Naruto;)) who live within them, while people with more domesticated personality, They are best to meet the needs of the system in which they live (without question) but also to control the instinctive pulse in favor of their 'obligations''.


    On spatial IQ. I do not know if the best realist painters artists or talented cartoonists punctuate super high in spatial IQ tests. I think the difference in this respect between East Asian and Euro-Caucasians, it just gives the highest percentage of neuroatypicals with these gifts of nature savant. We know there are people with savant syndrome presenting a visually stunning detail memory and they tend to score very low in general cognitive tests.

    The Western advantage has been primarily due to a higher proportion of neuroatypicals types, ie those who actually have some spectacular cognitive gift and that often the great innovators of our time.

    I also agree that I do not see the East Asian as less capable of abstract thought, on average. That's important to specify. The average white is better in the abstract thought that the east asian, or in fact, there is a greater cognitive diversity among whites, resulting in highly intelligent subgroups in abstract thinking compared to East Asians ??

    We must keep in mind also that creative geniuses (and other types) are extremely rare, especially in societies like the past, the chances that someone very clever and creative could become prominent in societies dominated by social conformity and class, was likely to have been very little. Note that even in today's world, nepotism is still prevalent.

    An interesting case to be discussed is about the concept and the literal application of creativity among eminent geniuses. For example, Charles Darwin was creative?

    I do not think so much in quantitative terms. In fact, he developed a few theories, from what I know. Few theories, but they were exceptional and revolutionary. Darwin was a discontinuous creative, it was not exactly a typical creative, or continuous creative, which has a lot of ideas per day or per month. But he was able to develop (belatedly unbelievable to think that denial of magical thinking of the church, was still very widespread among people '' educated '' until the second half of the nineteenth century) but few revolutionary theories. And from there, his intelligence and willpower were very important for the development of their work.
  109. @valiance

    Ancient Greeks were quite different than modern Greeks. And how clannish were the ancients?
     
    Do you have any books or articles that discuss this? I've always wondered if there was a standard-HBD explanation for the huge differences in intelligence and personality between modern and ancient Greeks. Any idea as to what precisely happened?

    Do you have any books or articles that discuss this? I’ve always wondered if there was a standard-HBD explanation for the huge differences in intelligence and personality between modern and ancient Greeks. Any idea as to what precisely happened?

    This very website has an article on it.

    Read More
  110. Since my comment won’t be published anyway, whether or not I come up with a different perspective, would I be so wrong if I assert that when it comes to in-depth discussion, dark-skinned people tend to go bananas and block/ban when they get cornered? since they can’t argue against the logic compared to White people, esp NW Europeans?

    That’s why those dark-skinned people territory/continents/ are so well behind Evolutionary curve? lower IQ, wild, uncivilized? am I wrong to assert those assumption?

    At least this comment will get to you, yet unpublished.

    Ciao!

    Read More
  111. @Rdm
    Agreed on the population size and selection pressure.

    What I emphasized previously here is the claim that hereditary nature of NW Europeans have more creative and scientific tendency compared to rest of the world. Looking at the maps show that all the criteria used in this post (Nobel, Fields Medals, Pubs, Patents) made the NW europeans having more scientific achievement which conveniently translated into "More creative, and more Weirdo" traits.

    What I argue is it's not hereditary tendency, rather it reflects the pre-existing condition of wealth those countries have accumulated over the years. There's nothing hereditary nature of those NW Europeans making them more creative. It's the "Wealth" that serves as a foundation for their curiosity to make it reality.

    Now let's say if we test North and South Koreans after 70 years of separation, do South Koreans evolve faster than North Koreans? in terms of their looks, their features, their language?

    South Koreans will stand out in "Creativity", "Innovation" compared to North Koreans when we consider Samsung, LG, LED display used in iPhones, and Kia, Hyundai automobile, etc etc etc. Guess what, if we compare South Koreans and North Koreans in Publications and Patents, National Medals, we can imagine South Korea will have more of those achievements when we put into a map. Does it translate that South Koreans evolve faster than North Koreans? or South Koreans become more creative due to selection pressure?

    It's clear it's the "Wealth" that propels South Koreans to pursue their creative idea and curiosity to make them reality. And we are only seeing South Koreans economic boom after WWII. It's not even a century yet.

    But those NW Europeans Dutch, French, Germany, British, they once had plethora of colonies in other parts of the world. You can imagine how much "wealth" they would have accumulated over time. That's why we're seeing the lopsided distribution of this "Fields Medals, Pubs, Patents" in those Europeans countries.

    Fields Medals, Pubs, Patents do not translate into Hereditary nature of "Creativity" and "Curiosity". They represent "Wealth" as a foundation.

    What I emphasized previously here is the claim that hereditary nature of NW Europeans have more creative and scientific tendency compared to rest of the world. Looking at the maps show that all the criteria used in this post (Nobel, Fields Medals, Pubs, Patents) made the NW europeans having more scientific achievement which conveniently translated into “More creative, and more Weirdo” traits.

    This is such a Boasian point of view… And its such a joke at this point. You don’t even have to know anything about HBD or genetics, you just have to know history, to see how wrong this point is…

    Rdm, you keep saying things that prove how poorly informed you are. Why not actually read the material in question first, and then ask questions later? That way you will atleast seem more informed.

    Read More
  112. @unpc downunder
    Oddly enough heavy metal seems to have become something of a middle class nerd/bohemian thing - it also seems to haved cross-fertilised alot with the upper middle class nerd world of progressive rock. The working class tend to prefer classic heavy rock like ACDC, while lower middle classic web designers listen to Opeth and Dream Theater.

    Oddly enough heavy metal seems to have become something of a middle class nerd/bohemian thing – it also seems to haved cross-fertilised alot with the upper middle class nerd world of progressive rock. The working class tend to prefer classic heavy rock like ACDC, while lower middle classic web designers listen to Opeth and Dream Theater.

    The progressive metal scene is the future of music, pioneered by the like of Meshuggah and Misha Mansoor. Uncharacteristic to “traditionally” Western music it is dissonant, and of course, it majorly started in Sweden. It is also majorly composed of whites, and in my extensive experience, non-whites are pretty well integrated (or dispersed) into “metal” culture.

    Luckily metal has been growing and now is bigger than pop. Because honestly, if there is ever a revolution, metal would go hand-in-hand with it (songs like Thy Art Is Murder’s “Holy War” or Molotov Solution’s “Injustice For All” come to mind). Their lyrics tend to be brutally honest. If there was a genre of music that could every possibly unite future generations of Westerners in some semblance, this is it.

    Read More
  113. anon says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @Rdm
    Agreed on the population size and selection pressure.

    What I emphasized previously here is the claim that hereditary nature of NW Europeans have more creative and scientific tendency compared to rest of the world. Looking at the maps show that all the criteria used in this post (Nobel, Fields Medals, Pubs, Patents) made the NW europeans having more scientific achievement which conveniently translated into "More creative, and more Weirdo" traits.

    What I argue is it's not hereditary tendency, rather it reflects the pre-existing condition of wealth those countries have accumulated over the years. There's nothing hereditary nature of those NW Europeans making them more creative. It's the "Wealth" that serves as a foundation for their curiosity to make it reality.

    Now let's say if we test North and South Koreans after 70 years of separation, do South Koreans evolve faster than North Koreans? in terms of their looks, their features, their language?

    South Koreans will stand out in "Creativity", "Innovation" compared to North Koreans when we consider Samsung, LG, LED display used in iPhones, and Kia, Hyundai automobile, etc etc etc. Guess what, if we compare South Koreans and North Koreans in Publications and Patents, National Medals, we can imagine South Korea will have more of those achievements when we put into a map. Does it translate that South Koreans evolve faster than North Koreans? or South Koreans become more creative due to selection pressure?

    It's clear it's the "Wealth" that propels South Koreans to pursue their creative idea and curiosity to make them reality. And we are only seeing South Koreans economic boom after WWII. It's not even a century yet.

    But those NW Europeans Dutch, French, Germany, British, they once had plethora of colonies in other parts of the world. You can imagine how much "wealth" they would have accumulated over time. That's why we're seeing the lopsided distribution of this "Fields Medals, Pubs, Patents" in those Europeans countries.

    Fields Medals, Pubs, Patents do not translate into Hereditary nature of "Creativity" and "Curiosity". They represent "Wealth" as a foundation.

    I’d say the basic idea presented here – that the change in marriage culture in NW Europe in the early medieval period had a dramatic effect over time – is correct. Although no doubt a lot of the details will need to be hashed out.

    I think it was those changes that somehow lead to the initial increase in wealth – whether through a genetic effect or through creating a society where inventiveness was promoted – although I’d agree once it got started that would create a cycle where the increase in wealth fuels itself.

    The thing is there have been many empires in history and they all start with the soon to be imperial power having some kind of advantage over their neighbors. This is only disputed when discussing the European empires of the colonial era so to me it seems like a political argument.

    Read More
  114. anon says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @thinkingaboutit
    Jayman, if you want to adopt Razib's haughty attitude towards dissenting commenters, you need to back it up with the same rigor he uses in his arguments.
    Instead, you're edging closer and closer to Koanicsoul levels of fact-freeness.

    I think you can see the pattern most clearly when you look at the difference between the two extremes of first cousin marriage: Arab world and NW Europe.

    If the basic idea is correct the differences between populations between those two extremes will vary greatly due to local factors (and maybe over time also).

    Read More
  115. @Anonymous
    Yes. Concentration vs Creativity seems like a better explanation to me. Note how when people take drugs such as modafinil their concentration increases while their creativity decreases.

    I'm not buying the idea that Asians are not good at abstract thinking when all evidence except for number of Field's medals won points to them excelling at Math.

    Proposed explanations:
    1. Q factor, might also call it passion for understanding.

    2. Concentration vs Creativity.

    3. Spatial IQ vs Analytical IQ.

    4. Abstract thinking ability. Does this overlap with #3?

    5. Socioeconomic.

    Whatever the reason for why almost all of mankind's innovation has come from the west, it probably will not be as important in determining global power as it used to be since new technology is now quickly copied.

    Yes. I think we all have a point in our spirit that shines brighter and that determines our path. I determined this’ point g ” as intrinsic motivation. However, it is also necessary that this motivation is spontaneous and by intellectual and / or cognitive nature.

    The conformity factor seems to have a very strong role in this phenomenon, because almost all creative types will be more energetic and nonconformists, although often they will do it stupidly, as with many artists and left-wing intellectuals.

    Nonconformity is not synonymous with wisdom, intelligence in its most direct and gross manifestation. This explains why so many nonconformists end up embracing toxic ideologies. Because one does not have to lead to another. Often, they do so because of its overflowing energy and lack of extrinsic focus, than for real understanding of the events that encapsulate.

    Leftism is not completely wrong, in fact, is far from. The problem is that to get understand it, you need more neurons. Combine leftism with democracy and you have chaos.

    Extrinsic motivation is everything that is not entirely related to our spirit. Asian east, although they may have intrinsic motivations more pronounceable, are good at focusing for example to public examinations and school tests. The ability to dissociate the strong influence of personality on intelligence, in my opinion, a new concept for concentration, is one of the most common and typical cognitive characteristics between them.

    In other words, strong personality of people may be less likely to achieve control ” fox seven tails ” (search on google for Naruto;)) who live within them, while people with more domesticated personality, They are best to meet the needs of the system in which they live (without question) but also to control the instinctive pulse in favor of their ‘obligations”.

    On spatial IQ. I do not know if the best realist painters artists or talented cartoonists punctuate super high in spatial IQ tests. I think the difference in this respect between East Asian and Euro-Caucasians, it just gives the highest percentage of neuroatypicals with these gifts of nature savant. We know there are people with savant syndrome presenting a visually stunning detail memory and they tend to score very low in general cognitive tests.

    The Western advantage has been primarily due to a higher proportion of neuroatypicals types, ie those who actually have some spectacular cognitive gift and that often the great innovators of our time.

    I also agree that I do not see the East Asian as less capable of abstract thought, on average. That’s important to specify. The average white is better in the abstract thought that the east asian, or in fact, there is a greater cognitive diversity among whites, resulting in highly intelligent subgroups in abstract thinking compared to East Asians ??

    We must keep in mind also that creative geniuses (and other types) are extremely rare, especially in societies like the past, the chances that someone very clever and creative could become prominent in societies dominated by social conformity and class, was likely to have been very little. Note that even in today’s world, nepotism is still prevalent.

    An interesting case to be discussed is about the concept and the literal application of creativity among eminent geniuses. For example, Charles Darwin was creative?

    I do not think so much in quantitative terms. In fact, he developed a few theories, from what I know. Few theories, but they were exceptional and revolutionary. Darwin was a discontinuous creative, it was not exactly a typical creative, or continuous creative, which has a lot of ideas per day or per month. But he was able to develop (belatedly unbelievable to think that denial of magical thinking of the church, was still very widespread among people ” educated ” until the second half of the nineteenth century) but few revolutionary theories. And from there, his intelligence and willpower were very important for the development of their work.

    Read More
  116. For the last…

    narcisism spectrum…

    Narcissists are very self confident. I read a study that said that they tend to make self-assessment errors, believing they are much better than they actually are. Antisocial personality tends to correlate positively with narcissism and / or overconfidence.

    East Asians appear to be, on average, less narcissistic of all ethnic groups.

    The genius tends to take between. The typical creative displays an ambidextrous personality. A balance between confidence (for example, to believe in their revolutionary ideas when no one is believing) and humility (to recognize one’s mistakes). The zig-zag, the metaphor of the title or reflective thought.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Lion of the Judah-sphere
    This is a good post Santoculto. I actually sometimes wonder if Western Europeans may have higher narcissism, rather than lower, even though it's negatively correlated with honesty-humility (a personality trait whose inverse overlaps a great deal with psychopathy/Dark Triad traits). As Jayman describes here, data on corruption and other factors show that East Asians have lower honesty-humility. But I think though that higher narcissism would help European scientists buck conformity more easily and become potential Galileos. Just my thoughts.

    And Santoculto, I'm sorry for being an asshole to you, come back to Pumpkin Person's blog! We need you there!
  117. Sorry guys, as much as I’d like to delve into this subject, any perspective that I brought up to the table if against the Jay assertion goes into trash. So I can’t.

    Although not sure if this will go through,

    Rdm, you keep saying things that prove how poorly informed you are. – Smiddy

    Is it because I’m poorly informed or is it because I’m going against your idea or assertion? If you want a PhD Level talk, we can have it. I’m not some kind of dropout and spewing out my fantasy idea here.

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    • Replies: @JayMan

    I’m not some kind of dropout and spewing out my fantasy idea here.
     
    Smiddy is correct.

    It also really pisses me off when I direct people to information relevant to a discussion and they continue to blather on without reading said information. Until you've done so, don't bother showing yourself here.

  118. @Rdm
    Sorry guys, as much as I'd like to delve into this subject, any perspective that I brought up to the table if against the Jay assertion goes into trash. So I can't.

    Although not sure if this will go through,

    Rdm, you keep saying things that prove how poorly informed you are. - Smiddy
     
    Is it because I'm poorly informed or is it because I'm going against your idea or assertion? If you want a PhD Level talk, we can have it. I'm not some kind of dropout and spewing out my fantasy idea here.

    I’m not some kind of dropout and spewing out my fantasy idea here.

    Smiddy is correct.

    It also really pisses me off when I direct people to information relevant to a discussion and they continue to blather on without reading said information. Until you’ve done so, don’t bother showing yourself here.

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  119. @Lion of the Judah-sphere
    Hey Jayman,

    If one were to rank the three main racial groups on HEXACO, do you think the order would be as follows? (from high to low):

    Honesty-Humility: whites, yellows, blacks
    Emotionality: yellows, whites, blacks
    EXtroversion: blacks, whites, yellows
    Agreeableness: yellows, whites, blacks
    Conscientiousness: yellows, whites, blacks
    Openness: whites, yellows, blacks

    HH and Openness break up Rushton's old "yellow, white, black" ordering.

    If one were to rank the three main racial groups on HEXACO, do you think the order would be as follows? (from high to low):

    Remember, there’s White, and then there’s White. Eastern Europeans aren’t exactly high H and high O (or high A for that matter).

    I expected more than that naive oversimplification from you…

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  120. @Biff

    Indeed, it was Northwestern Europeans that gave us science as we know it. Northwestern Europeans brought about the Scientific and Industrial Revolutions and continue to be at the forefront of discovery to
     
    Science is based on mathmatics and that began in the middle east in the 7th century. The two oldest universities are in Turkey and Iraq. Algerbra is an Arab term. The concept of zero is Arabic. You aren't going to get to the moon using Roman numerals.

    Science is based on mathmatics and that began in the middle east in the 7th century. The two oldest universities are in Turkey and Iraq. Algerbra is an Arab term. The concept of zero is Arabic. You aren’t going to get to the moon using Roman numerals.

    By the 7th century Euclid’s Elements was in use as a textbook for a thousand years and maths is far older.
    Madrasas aren’t universities. Madrasas issue ijazahs for sharia. Medieval Christian universities were legally autonomous corporate entities, giving degrees in different subjects, that evolved from cathedral schools that pre-date Islam. Some madrasas became universities in the 20th century.
    Algebra is an Arabic term. It describes a branch of maths going back to the Sumerians and brought to a new level by Diophantus (“the father of algebra”) and Brahmagupta (the first person to give the rules for computing with zero) before al-Khwārizmī was born.
    The concept of zero as number is Indian.
    You aren’t going to improve things by deluding yourself.

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  121. @Anonymous

    It’s pretty clear that clannishness correlates with the abstract vs. holistic world.
     
    There are basically 4 traditions of philosophy in the world: Western, Islamic, Hindu, and Chinese. Jewish philosophy could be considered a distinct tradition, or as a subset of Western and Islamic philosophy.

    Western, Islamic, and Jewish philosophy are all based on Greek philosophy. They are all characterized by abstract though. Hindu philosophy is not directly founded on Greek philosophy, but has a logic and grammarian tradition, and is characterized by abstraction. All of these traditions are basically abstract in nature and could be classed together.

    The only holistic tradition is Chinese philosophy. There are arguably only two distinct classes of philosophy: "Greek" philosophy which encompasses all the abstract traditions, and the Chinese , which is the only holistic philosophy.

    I'm not sure how well this would correlate with the "clannishness" dimension, however, if the Islamic and Indian cultures are more clannish than the Sinitic.

    Hello Jayman,

    Yes, I know my last post was silly oversimplification.

    Can you respond to post #31? Nisbett claims that Jewish/Yiddish philosophy is closer to the Chinese than European, but as Anon. states, Arabic and Indian philosophy shared more in common with European than Chinese philosophy. And as some other commenters have stated, mathematics was significantly advanced by Arabs (in actuality, more like Persians) and Indians. Although Nisbett states that algebra was more of an East Asian trait than European one, as the latter mastered geometry first.

    Is holism a continuous trait, with those closer China having more of it than others? Or do you think it is something unique to China, with other Asian culture closer to Europe in terms of thinking style? Does the honor culture of Arabic peoples have anything to do with their (overstated) contributions to philosophy/science, and with their style of cognition?

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  122. @Santoculto
    For the last...

    narcisism spectrum...

    Narcissists are very self confident. I read a study that said that they tend to make self-assessment errors, believing they are much better than they actually are. Antisocial personality tends to correlate positively with narcissism and / or overconfidence.

    East Asians appear to be, on average, less narcissistic of all ethnic groups.

    The genius tends to take between. The typical creative displays an ambidextrous personality. A balance between confidence (for example, to believe in their revolutionary ideas when no one is believing) and humility (to recognize one's mistakes). The zig-zag, the metaphor of the title or reflective thought.

    This is a good post Santoculto. I actually sometimes wonder if Western Europeans may have higher narcissism, rather than lower, even though it’s negatively correlated with honesty-humility (a personality trait whose inverse overlaps a great deal with psychopathy/Dark Triad traits). As Jayman describes here, data on corruption and other factors show that East Asians have lower honesty-humility. But I think though that higher narcissism would help European scientists buck conformity more easily and become potential Galileos. Just my thoughts.

    And Santoculto, I’m sorry for being an asshole to you, come back to Pumpkin Person’s blog! We need you there!

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    • Replies: @Santoculto
    Thank you.

    No, I have a very little IQ, you do not need someone with IQ 103.

    Read what former researchers on genius has said about them. Genius has a bipolarized personality (not to be confused with bipolar, is not exactly the same thing), on average, of course. They need to combine the extremes of human behavior and more, this combination is constant, '' alive ''. Normal people are apathetic.

    I've talked a few times about lack of narcissism among East Asians, the blog Pumpkin Persson, remember it because the JS greeted me for the comment.
  123. What traits are required to be a good HBDer? I know high IQ is one of them, but what else? I’m talking mostly in terms of HEXACO, or maybe other characteristics typical of the best HBDers.

    Western Europeans, for all their genius in science, mostly seem to find HBD incomprehensible, so their particular set of characteristics must be bad for HBD science.

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    • Replies: @Santoculto
    ''Western Europeans, for all their genius in science''


    It is a coletivization of individual specific profiles. Average western european are not super bright because they are average as well happen in all group populations.

    People who think about ideas tend to be different than people who prefer to think about other(/himself) people.

    We are a mix between rational and instinctive while this people are likely to be a mix between emotional and rational.

    ((rational hardly win :( )
  124. @Lion of the Judah-sphere
    This is a good post Santoculto. I actually sometimes wonder if Western Europeans may have higher narcissism, rather than lower, even though it's negatively correlated with honesty-humility (a personality trait whose inverse overlaps a great deal with psychopathy/Dark Triad traits). As Jayman describes here, data on corruption and other factors show that East Asians have lower honesty-humility. But I think though that higher narcissism would help European scientists buck conformity more easily and become potential Galileos. Just my thoughts.

    And Santoculto, I'm sorry for being an asshole to you, come back to Pumpkin Person's blog! We need you there!

    Thank you.

    No, I have a very little IQ, you do not need someone with IQ 103.

    Read what former researchers on genius has said about them. Genius has a bipolarized personality (not to be confused with bipolar, is not exactly the same thing), on average, of course. They need to combine the extremes of human behavior and more, this combination is constant, ” alive ”. Normal people are apathetic.

    I’ve talked a few times about lack of narcissism among East Asians, the blog Pumpkin Persson, remember it because the JS greeted me for the comment.

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  125. Other very important component of geniality = vivacity or enthusiasm with their ideas.

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  126. @Lion of the Judah-sphere
    What traits are required to be a good HBDer? I know high IQ is one of them, but what else? I'm talking mostly in terms of HEXACO, or maybe other characteristics typical of the best HBDers.

    Western Europeans, for all their genius in science, mostly seem to find HBD incomprehensible, so their particular set of characteristics must be bad for HBD science.

    ”Western Europeans, for all their genius in science”

    It is a coletivization of individual specific profiles. Average western european are not super bright because they are average as well happen in all group populations.

    People who think about ideas tend to be different than people who prefer to think about other(/himself) people.

    We are a mix between rational and instinctive while this people are likely to be a mix between emotional and rational.

    ((rational hardly win :( )

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  127. […] jaymans.wordpress.com (recently got promoted to join the #1 HBD blog,  Unz.com, so most of his readers have followed him there) […]

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  128. Star Trek: The Motion Picture is the best of the ST films. There, I said it.

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  129. @Rdm
    2. NW Europeans

    There's no denying that Europeans in general, specifically Northern Europeans contributed much to the advancement of Humans civilization in the past centuries. It is also understandable if they feel proud of their achievement. However if you go on to explain why Evolution proceeds quicker in NW Europeans and their creativity stems from their hereditary traits or "WEIRDOS" trait, I suggest you pause it there because it's not clannish or weirdo behavior that propelled them to become 21st century weirdos, it's an accumulated wealth that propels them into becoming one.

    Now let's look at all the beautiful world maps you put up there.
    IQ map shows a bit of distribution across the globe except Africa. NE Asians have the highest IQs whereas Africa has the lowest IQ. That's not the point here. The point is IQ is relatively distributed across the globe.

    Now let's look at all the other maps.
    Nobel Prizes,
    Field Medals,
    Scientific Publications,
    Patents applications,

    They all seem to cluster in Europeans countries, especially NW Europeans. Impressive, isn't it? It is so astounding that out of so many nations, and countries on Earth, only those tiny countries from Europe stood out to contribute much to Science.

    You know what would explain? Just show the one giant map with countries that had "COLONIZE" other countries and accumulated wealth over time. That giant maps will explain in no time why we are seeing this lopsided distribution of NW Europeans contribution to Science in the past centuries.

    As I commented above, the world maps (Nobel Prize, Field Medal, Pubs, Patents), they are not the result of hereditary traits. They are the offshoot of pre-existing wealth conditions.

    If you dare, do the world map before Industrial revolution on these categories and check which continents stood out among others;
    1. Civilization (uniting tribal groups one after another, and lasting longer)
    2. Vertical movement in an Empire or Monarchy
    3. Spreading indigenous genes across the continent
    (I'd ask why NW Europeans failed to spread their genes to America in the first place? if their weirdo traits are so suited for discoveries and creativity? Why Native Americans genes are not European genes? Yea Bering straits and continent shaft, whatever, but why not NW Europeans genes? The fact that Native American genes belong to Asian genes is some form of hereditary achievement across the continent, don't you think?)

    Those categories are to be Major Achievements in Human history before science. Now if you put back 21st century lens, you won't find them major achievement. But I'd say they do stand out as Evolutionary Achievement in certain time point in evolution.

    The fact that those tiny countries could colonise vast areas of the world is as impressive achievement as later contributions to the science, because this fact was enabled by combination of technical advantages, psychological predispositions (and, last but not least, pure luck). Building sea-worthy ship is comparable to any scientific achievement.

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    • Replies: @Rdm
    Absolutely right.

    http://beyondvictoriana.com/2011/01/21/africans-in-ancient-china-vice-versa-part-3-zheng-hes-star-fleet-guest-blog-by-eccentric-yoruba/
  130. @thinkingabout it
    1. The Germany article says nothing about HBD. Occam's razor would make most normal folk attribute this to the tremendous differences in political and religious climates these areas have experienced over the last millennium. Catholicism vs Protestantism, Prussia vs Austria-Hungary vs little city states, Germanic homogeneity vs exposure to the Slavic borderzone and so on.

    2. The Korea article is brazen in its abuse of statistical reasoning. Do you know what a Null hypothesis is? If you are claiming there is a genetic difference, it is incumbent upon YOU to prove it. I do not need to prove similarity - the null hypothesis is ALWAYS the baseline assumption in a Frequentist approach. And the overwhelming Bayesian prior, especially in this case where a fairly homogenous country was split apart by a war, is that the people of the DPRK and the ROK have very similar genetics.

    3. Historical accidents come from just that, accidents. Winter snowstorms which halt an army's march. Language barriers which prevent the spread of ideologies. Staple crops which are differentially affected by blight in any given year. Monsoon rains which fail in some areas and not in others, causing peasant revolts here and not there. Empires which exhaust their resources on one war, and find themselves overwhelmed by a new threat.

    And what is not caused by accident, can be explained by culture. Europeans were not necessarily predisposed to Christianity, they just happened to be under the rule of an empire which was taken over by Christians. Iranians were not predisposed to either Zoroastrianism or Islam, they just had it rammed down their throats by their emperors.

    Was there something genetic about West Punjabis that made them Muslim, while East Punjabis became Sikhs? HBD explains West Bengalis being Hindu, while East Bengalis became Muslim? If the Reconquista hadn't succeeded, you would have said there was something genetic about Spaniards that made them predisposed to accepting Islam. Now you would say there was something genetic about Spaniards that made them unsuited to Islam, while their cousins across the straits of Gibraltar were a better fit.

    None of those explanations can be completely falsified, but it takes a special kind of kook to think that genetic factors are the major explanations for a region's politico-religious 0utlay.

    There are no grand theories to be drawn from these random patterns. You and hbdchick remind me of children looking up at the clouds and imagining flowers and puppies and faces.

    Again, you have interesting ideas. But consider running it by someone with a passing knowledge of scientific analysis before publishing it here. God knows we have enough balderdash from that weird Mexican guy and other assorted loonies on Unz.com. Sailer, Razib and Derbyshire keep the place afloat, but they risk getting drowned out by all this baseless stuff.

    Abotu null hypothesis: you are right, except for one thing: we would disagree what is a null hypothesis. For me (and I presume for Jayman too) the null hypothesis is taht if you have two different regions, then there can be genetical differences between them, including perhaps differences resulting in a differences in distribution of different psychological trait. This is a unll hypothesis for me, because it is so obviously consistent with both the real world observation, and is logically resulting from my understanding of evolution and genetics. My null hypothesis is that ANY human populations will differ (even neighbouring villages) as long as there is any barrier (social, geographical) which prevents those populations from constant interbreeding. The claim that South and North Koreans are the same is – for me – the claim so outlandish, so it would require a really convincing proof. For me, the burden of proof is on you.

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  131. Interestingly, if you try to maximize IQ+conservatism you wind up in the Eastern European quadrant. Maybe that’s part of the reason neoreactionaries love Russia?

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    • Replies: @JayMan

    Interestingly, if you try to maximize IQ+conservatism you wind up in the Eastern European quadrant. Maybe that’s part of the reason neoreactionaries love Russia?
     
    Yup.
  132. @SFG
    Interestingly, if you try to maximize IQ+conservatism you wind up in the Eastern European quadrant. Maybe that's part of the reason neoreactionaries love Russia?

    Interestingly, if you try to maximize IQ+conservatism you wind up in the Eastern European quadrant. Maybe that’s part of the reason neoreactionaries love Russia?

    Yup.

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  133. @szopen
    The fact that those tiny countries could colonise vast areas of the world is as impressive achievement as later contributions to the science, because this fact was enabled by combination of technical advantages, psychological predispositions (and, last but not least, pure luck). Building sea-worthy ship is comparable to any scientific achievement.
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  134. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @JayMan

    Again, you have interesting ideas. But consider running it by someone with a passing knowledge of scientific analysis before publishing it here.
     
    You're probably better off to just stop talking, as you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Go back to my Welcome page and familiarize yourself with everything you see there and all it links to before you comment again. That wasn't a suggestion.

    What seems to be missed here is the additive power of “accidents” / “self-selection” / different cultural norms AND genetic drift over time caused by these factors. It’s not genetics OR culture – surely can both function together, amplifying each others’ effects. The issue is we are only seeing half the story in mainstream discourse (Jayman / hbdchick etc excluded). This means WEIRD societies keep coming up with stupid ideas (liberal democracy in Iraq people, double quick, snap snap etc) because we are wilfully ignoring the genetic aspects of human behaviour that can’t be totally altered overnight.

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  135. […] Clannishness – the Series: Zigzag Lightning in the Brain – from jayman. see also: a few thoughts. from me! (^_^) […]

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  136. No one’s commenting anymore?

    Anyhow, not all heavy metallers are cousins of the Swedes. Check out this guy (who I’ve seen live several times):

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  137. Hey Jayman,

    Another random thought: I’m not sure how familiar you are with the research into extrinsic vs. intrinsic motivation, or if you even take it seriously, but it seems Western Europeans have much more of the latter compared to other groups. Would you agree this is part of the suite of traits associated with guilt culture?

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    • Replies: @JayMan

    Another random thought: I’m not sure how familiar you are with the research into extrinsic vs. intrinsic motivation,
     
    Sounds exactly like shame vs. guilt culture to me.
  138. @Lion of the Judah-sphere
    Hey Jayman,

    Another random thought: I'm not sure how familiar you are with the research into extrinsic vs. intrinsic motivation, or if you even take it seriously, but it seems Western Europeans have much more of the latter compared to other groups. Would you agree this is part of the suite of traits associated with guilt culture?

    Another random thought: I’m not sure how familiar you are with the research into extrinsic vs. intrinsic motivation,

    Sounds exactly like shame vs. guilt culture to me.

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  139. In this fantastic Japanese film has some scenes seem to show a bit of Japanese theater or opera. Eastern classical music without any Western influence, that is, that are unique in the region can be very beautiful, but can also be much more so long ( for example, when we hear a single lone voice singing the same words for 3.4 minutes) and less condensed into different rythms. Of course it is an anecdotal observation but the music as well as culture or even more precise than the same, it may express the average personality that predominates in a particular region, that the ancient anthropologists termed racial character.

    I remember a Chinese immigrant performing in the ” Poland Got Talent ” and showing a bit of traditional Chinese music. I also remember contained laughing in the audience. Just tradition or oriental complacency and calm make them more reciprocal to this type of music that is very particular and need to be concentrated so it can be appreciated *

    Western operas are/seems to be almost always happier than the eastern operas. Only anecdotal observations.

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  140. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    Excellent! I being a clannish Indian who has lived in Western Europe for years think this piece is one of the most brilliant and comprehensive works ever done on HBD .

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  141. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @JayMan

    The thing is you don’t really need “clannishness” to explain any of this (except insofar as in extreme inbreeding cases it begins to greatly lower overall IQ leading to much smaller smart fractions).
     
    It's pretty clear that clannishness correlates with the abstract vs. holistic world.

    Ancient Greeks did a lot of abstract thinking, and produced the greatest cultural/scientific peak until the Renaissance (according to the same Charles Murray’s figures).
     
    Ancient Greeks were quite different than modern Greeks. And how clannish were the ancients?

    During the Middle Ages, in pure scientific terms, the Islamic world was most advanced.
     
    It wasn't the Arabs making those discoveries. And it also didn't last long, for some reason.

    The Renaissance began in northern Italy. Only in the 17th century did the bulk of scientific discoveries move to NW Europe.
     
    In the definition HBD Chick and I use, and as should be make abundantly clear by the maps, Northern Italy = NW Europe. "NW Europe" here refers to the region enclosed by the Hajnal line.

    North Italians are not Middle Easterners in the clannishness department, but they are most certainly not Englishmen or Swedes either.
     
    Yes, that's something this post should make clear. Degrees...

    The Swedes at that time however were about 1% literate (can’t have much literacy in a low-density, rural environment at that level of development) whereas the literacy rate in Renaissance Italy was more like 20%.
     
    I think HBD Chick well covered that the Scandinavians were late-comers to the WEIRDO world, but they came with a vengeance when they did. Apparently, there was a period of intense selection for WEIRDO-ness in Scandinavia.

    Scientific creativity is much more likely a simple function of smart fractions * literacy race,
     
    Nope. This post makes it clear that that position is untenable.

    In modern times, relative wealth levels would play a greater part
     
    Two words: East Asia (relative wealth roughly the same in Japan, for example). And besides, where does relative wealth come from?

    It wasn’t the Arabs making those discoveries.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alhazen

    Not arabs eh?

    Just because black people are the only group to not really invent anything (except for the NAACP and dumping ones child on others for care) doesn’t mean you have to group the rest.

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  142. @JayMan

    At first glance the idea that clannishness is opposed to high trust invites questions. After all family and clan require trust and punishment of betrayal of trust to get the benefit out of belonging to the clan.

    So, to start with, is even the presumption of trust and loyalty within the clan incorrect?
     

    This is why I put the note to read the links in the beginning of the post. But yes, in clannish societies, there is generally high trust within the clan, but lower trust between clans.

    Are the dynamics of large families, and even larger much extended clannish families, such as to produce friction, tension and dislike?
     
    Well clannish people tend to be more antagonistic and aggressive, so family life is often more acrimonious than in WEIRDO families just for that reason.

    Sorry to take advantage of this thread to come back late with a question that was just prompted by considering whether some very smart and successful Jewish friends of mine were “clannish”.

    Einstein had no problem with “tribe” and “tribal” when referring to Jews so I am tempted to assume that you would agree that Jews are notably clannish. How does that fit in with your thesis about the consequences of North Western Europeans shedding their clannishness and the undeniable Jewish individual achievements in science, banking, mathematics, literature and scholarship of every kind?

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    • Replies: @JayMan

    Einstein had no problem with “tribe” and “tribal” when referring to Jews so I am tempted to assume that you would agree that Jews are notably clannish
     
    http://www.unz.com/jman/zigzag-lightning/#comment-1151630
  143. @Wizard of Oz
    Sorry to take advantage of this thread to come back late with a question that was just prompted by considering whether some very smart and successful Jewish friends of mine were "clannish".

    Einstein had no problem with "tribe" and "tribal" when referring to Jews so I am tempted to assume that you would agree that Jews are notably clannish. How does that fit in with your thesis about the consequences of North Western Europeans shedding their clannishness and the undeniable Jewish individual achievements in science, banking, mathematics, literature and scholarship of every kind?

    Einstein had no problem with “tribe” and “tribal” when referring to Jews so I am tempted to assume that you would agree that Jews are notably clannish

    http://www.unz.com/jman/zigzag-lightning/#comment-1151630

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  144. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @JayMan

    Can we agree to stop using Nobel Prizes as an indicator of intelligence.
     
    No. Next.

    Good argument there. All done here.

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  145. Is the mean IQ for all of China really 105? Does that include the rural peasants?

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    • Replies: @JayMan

    Is the mean IQ for all of China really 105? Does that include the rural peasants?
     
    See Welcome Readers from Portugal!
  146. @gregor
    Is the mean IQ for all of China really 105? Does that include the rural peasants?

    Is the mean IQ for all of China really 105? Does that include the rural peasants?

    See Welcome Readers from Portugal!

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  147. […] we saw previously in my posts Clannishness – the Series: Zigzag Lightning in the Brain, there is a strong correlation between the size of the Muslim fraction in European countries and […]

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  148. […] By contrast, as we know, there was plenty of development in East Asia and Europe, especially Northwestern Europe: […]

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  149. […] traits. Psychopathy (at least in WEIRDO environments – see the list in the beginning of the post Clannishness – the Series: Zigzag Lightning in the Brain) is commonly thought to be maintained by frequency dependent selection; that is, psychopathy is […]

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  150. @JayMan

    Ugh, what in the world am I living that North and South Koreans, East and West Germans are biologically and genetically as distinct as Blacks and Whites?
     
    #ExcludedMiddleFallacy.

    The excluded middle is not a fallacy, it’s a theorem of standard logics. You mean black or white/false dilemma fallacy. http://www.fallacyfiles.org/eitheror.html

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  151. […] in all directions from there. This area is also the area of peak human accomplishment (see Clannishness – The Series: Zigzag Lightning in the Brain and “core europe” and human accomplish-ment | hbd chick), which likewise roughly diminishes […]

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