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WHAT’S WRONG with CHINA–A Study of Unchanged National Character
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WHAT’S WRONG WITH CHINA by Paul MidlerThe Chinese sure can be exasperating. Paul Midler writes in his new book What’s Wrong with China:

No one is sure when it began, but the phrase “I’m having a bad China day” has become synonymous with the expatriate experience … Those who become testy in this country are not limited to the cholerically predisposed. China has a way of also taking easygoing milquetoasts and turning them into hotheads. The phenomenon is so common that long-term expatriates have coined various terms: The Laowai Wigout, The Expat Snap, and Angry Foreigner Syndrome are three such expressions floating around the bigger metropolitan areas.

(Laowai is the common—informal, non-hostile—Chinese term for a foreigner, equivalent to Japanese gaijin. Pronunciation here. During my own China days in the early 1980s the usual expat term for the syndrome under discussion here was “China Fatigue.” I, a representative of the easygoing milquetoast community, recall experiencing one or two episodes.)

Paul Midler is an Old China Hand. He has lived and worked in China for more than twenty years, mainly as a business consultant helping foreign firms in their dealings with Chinese manufacturers. His wife is Chinese. His 2009 book Poorly Made in China (reviewed by me here) is wonderfully informative on the Chinese way of doing business.

These two books of his are in a fine old tradition, to which Midler pays homage in the very title of this latter one.

I encountered that tradition myself when studying Chinese in London thirty-eight years ago. I had a reader’s ticket to the magnificent library of SOAS, the School of Oriental and African Studies, and spent whole days there, in the stacks of the China section.

I can read Chinese only with difficulty, though; so after two or three hours of intense cognitive effort I would, for relaxation, drift over to the shelves of English-language books about China.

The items that most got my interest there were the memoirs and diaries of foreigners living in China during the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries—the late-imperial and republican period.

The SOAS library has a great collection of these, almost all by authors whose names have sunk into oblivion: missionaries, merchants, diplomats, adventurers, and oddities like the botanist Robert Fortune. (Who was one of the most upbeat: “In no country in the world is there less real misery and want than in China.” That was written in the mid-1840s.)

One particularly striking book in that genre is Rodney Gilbert’s What’s Wrong with China, first published in 1926. I was so taken with this book, I acquired a copy of my own from the second-hand shelves at Probsthain’s oriental bookstore, around the corner from SOAS.

I still have that copy: so there are now two books on my own shelves with exactly the same title but by different authors, published 92 years apart.

Rodney Gilbert wrote with a frankness about race that would make his book utterly unpublishable nowadays, and he sometimes slipped into the supercilious diction of a Victorian lady complaining about the servants. At one point he actually does complain about his servants.

Also, Gilbert’s partiality for his own race occasionally led him into error. He recounts, for instance, the episode from the Battle of Maldon in a.d. 991 when the Anglo-Saxon leader allowed his Viking enemies to ford a waterway and form up for battle before he attacked them. No Chinese leader, said Gilbert, would ever show such chivalry.

Wrong! In fact there is a closely parallel incident in Chinese history from the Battle of Hongshui (638 b.c.), the source of a well-known remark of Mao Tse-tung’s.

If you can get past all that, though, Rodney Gilbert, writing a long lifetime ago, had some penetrating insights into China’s history, culture, and national character.

Most of those insights are of a negative kind. For a person so intimately acquainted with the Chinese people, he seems not to have liked them much. His keynote, which he returns to again and again, is:

In China the psychic flame burns low, for want of fuel.

Gilbert is not uniformly negative, though. He gives credit where he thinks it’s due.

Like all Orientals, [the Chinese] have a strong dramatic sense, and a professional storyteller, speaking his primitive and undeveloped language [by comparison with the classical style of the scholarly literati, Gilbert means], can rise to heights in characterization, description, narrative and metaphor to which not one Occidental in ten thousand could aspire in his own tongue. An infallible sense of rhythm and cadence is born in the great majority of Chinese. In ordinary speech, they divide their sentences up into euphoniously balanced periods …

Paul Midler quotes Rodney Gilbert numerous times in this new book for which he has borrowed Gilbert’s title. He also quotes many other foreign commentators from that late-imperial, early-republican period.

I get the impression Midler had the same experience I had when studying Chinese. But for a few years’ difference in the dates of our studies, we might unknowingly have bumped into each other among the stacks in SOAS library.

Much water has of course flowed under the bridge since those earlier observers wrote. Midler, however, does not think the quality of observation has improved.

It is curious that books written on China in the 1960s—Dennis Bloodworth’s The Chinese Looking-Glass is an example—should read finer than most of what is produced these days, and that even these books pale in comparison to the works of the previous generation. The trend appears to go back quite some time. In the 1930s, Ralph Townsend was convinced that his contemporaries wrote nothing as accurate as that which was produced by Arthur Smith [1890s] and Abbé Huc [1840s]…

Economic and technological progress alone ought to have made it easier to watch China; but modernity, as it turns out, had actually a negative influence …

You will find more insights in a book written one hundred years ago than in something written last month.

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I think that’s right as a generalization. Reading it, in fact, brought to mind something I have I found myself thinking rather often in recent years: The much-discussed Flynn Effect notwithstanding, we are in some important, unquantified way stupider than our forebears of a hundred years ago.

Paul Midler is, however, an exception to that generalization. His observations, based on those twenty years of wrangling with Chinese exporters, take us right back to the unsparing, unillusioned critiques of those old Old China Hands.

Like them, he is eloquent on the ferociously optimizing skills in negotiation that Chinese people bring to commercial transactions.

Chinese factory owners hate to see their customers happy, because it means that money has been left on the table.

Similarly with Chinese customers. A Chinese friend of mine, once established in America, decided to buy a car. He picked the model he wanted, went to a showroom, and began haggling. So persistent was he—“Oh come on, you can give me another fifty dollars on that!”—they threw him out, almost literally. Two of the salesmen pushed him into the street, one at each elbow.

That,” he exulted, telling me the story, “was when I knew I’d found their price!”

The downside of this high level of commercial acumen is long-term commercial failure. Chinese merchants can’t resist the temptation to kill the golden goose for the sake of a couple more cents on the dollar.

Midler tells the story of tea, which I think is quite well-known. Given that tea is native to China, not (except very marginally) to India, why did the West end up drinking Indian tea, not Chinese tea? Midler:

The tea industry collapsed in part because growers were sending leaves to market without drying them. This was not a time-saving maneuver. It was done because wet leaves weigh more, and the additional weight brought in more revenue. The problem with moisture is that it leads to mold, which affects taste.

Some similar style of cheating may have affected the opium trade, with dire consequences.

In the grand scale of psychoactive substances, opium as smoked in China from the seventeenth century onwards is not exceptionally harmful. A wealthy Chinese opium smoker “’does not seem much the worse’ for his habit,” noted an 1890s observer (quoted by Midler).

So why was opium smoking so devastating among China’s poor? Adulteration, says Midler. In the extreme, a cheap variety named Hankow Cake contained no opium at all, only sesame seeds. Midler:

Historians are so hell-bent on blaming the West for everything that went wrong with China in the nineteenth century that they have no room for an investigation into the serious possibility that the nation may have actually poisoned itself.

I would like to see some rigorous historical research on that, but it’s not implausible, and fits very well with the tiresome Chinese bellyaching about the wrongs done to them by foreigners.

Chinese people acknowledge that an individual fellow-countryman may be wicked, but China as a nation can do no wrong.

National self-esteem is of course not an exclusively Chinese phenomenon. We Americans—well, some of us—treasure our “exceptionalism.” Chinese propagandists take it to the extreme, though.

Midler calls it “collective narcissism” and quotes Lucian Pye, writing fifty years ago:

Nothing can be wrong with the Chinese spirit and their inward identity. All problems must lie outside and therefore be the work of “foreigners.”

The most wince-inducing aspect of this national trait is the frequent announcements out of Peking that some action by some foreign government—holding a meeting with the Dalai Lama, for example— has “hurt the feelings of the Chinese people.” Poor things! [Why so sensitive? A complete history of China’s ‘hurt feelings’, by David Bandurski, Hong Kong Free Press, January 29, 2016]

Midler shows that there is nothing communist, or at all modern, about this ploy. He tracks it back to a 1901 article written by Wu Ting-fang, an official in the imperial government, who implored foreign critics to “respect the feelings of the Chinese.” Our author really has read everything.

That point, and many others Paul Midler has drawn from his reading and his commercial dealings, reinforces the grand theme of foreign commentary on China down through the ages: continuity.

The great event in China’s twentieth-century history was Mao Tse-tung’s revolution. Mao boasted that he would re-make China into a socialist utopia.

No such thing happened. In fact nothing much happened. There was a spell of turmoil, to be sure; but when the dust settled, all was as before under Heaven.

The supreme ruler possesses the same attributes and discharges the same functions; the governing classes are chosen in the same manner; the people are bound in the same state of servitude, and enjoy the same practical liberty; all is now as it was.

—Boulger’s History of China (1881).

Leszek Kolakowski in Main Currents of Marxism described Mao Tse-tung Thought as “a naïve repetition of a few commonplaces of Leninist-Stalinist Marxism.” He allows, however, that Mao was “one of the greatest, if not the very greatest, manipulator of large masses of human beings in the twentieth century.”

So Maoism was a cheap Chinese knock-off of Marxism-Leninism. Once Mao’s extraordinary personality ceased to drive events, the political system quickly reverted to the imperial norm.

The continuity of national character comes out clearly in Paul Midler’s use of older commentators. Mao’s revolution, for all its upheavals and horrors, had very little effect on the national psyche, perhaps none at all.

To speak of a “national psyche” nowadays, however, is to trespass into the minefield of Political Incorrectness. The Scots are mean, we used to say blithely; the French are arrogant; the Germans are orderly; the Italians, excitable; the Russians, gloomy; the Irish, pugnacious; and so on.

Saying such things aloud in 2018 will get you horse-whipped on the steps of your club; but common observation suggests that there is some underlying reality to these unmentionable old perceptions, as is usually the case with stereotypes.

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(In the current enstupidated condition of our public discourse about human nature, the weary commentator is obliged to add that these are statistical generalities. Of course there exist generous Scots, humble Frenchmen, disorganized Germans, placid Italians, and cheerful Russians. There may even be placatory Irishmen: I don’t know, I couldn’t say.)

The Chinese in this schema are characterized by love of money and addiction to gambling. Midler:

Whenever you read about a stampede in India, you can rest assured that it has taken place during a religious festival. In Europe, stampedes that result in death usually happen at sporting events. In China, the mad rush of a crowd almost always has something to do with economics. A sales promotion on cooking oil and rumors of a rice shortage have both sent Chinese into frenzied action.

What, then, is wrong with China? Paul Midler offers many suggestions.

He tells us for example that the Chinese, their colossal national self-regard notwithstanding, have no faith in the permanence of their political arrangements. All Chinese people, including the rulers, have internalized the dynastic cycle. Every Chinese person knows the opening words of a classic novel written seven hundred years ago:

What was long divided must unite,

What was long united must divide.

Much, says Midler, flows from this; the passion to get while the getting is good, the gambling instinct, the leaders’ determination to put off the inevitable day of dissolution as long as possible by fierce repression, and so on.

The Chinese also nurse ambivalence about their relation to the other peoples of the world. For long millennia the situation was clear to them: they were a civilized enclave surrounded by barbarians.

The nineteenth-century encounter with Europeans woke China from this particular opium dream, but they have not yet found an alternative equilibrium point on which to rest their identity.

Rodney Gilbert thought the Chinese of ninety years ago yearned to be isolated once again. If he was right, Mao Tse-tung fulfilled that yearning, isolating China for thirty years. The results were not altogether satisfactory, and now China poses as a nation among other nations.

The pronouncements of China’s leaders, though, suggest that their hearts aren’t really in it. Chinese nationalism is something other than Westphalian; Chinese globalism, as currently manifested in the Belt and Road initiative, has a clumsy, out-of-tune quality to it, so that it inspires not admiration and respect, only suspicion and fear.

China’s internal governance, too, is chronically unstable. Midler:

China is a vase teetering on its edge, and maintaining balance has been a goal throughout its history.

He goes on to give an account of post-1949 China’s lurching from centralization to decentralization and back.

None of this should be taken as a slander on the Chinese, although of course it will be so taken. They, like the rest of us, have emerged as they are, in all their distinctness, from the long slow churnings of history, geography, and population genetics.

And, as Paul Midler writes:

Much of what’s wrong with China is actually something wrong within us. We are too fond of this country. We are too forgiving. We willingly have amnesia on the basis that we care.

He is writing there about the remarkably un-advertised fact that the Chinese have conducted many massacres of foreigners.

Why are so many of us so forgivingly fond of this exasperating, paradoxical, unstable place? Paul Midler quotes from the answer given by Progressive sociologist Edward Alsworth Ross in 1911.

Chinese are extremely likable and those who have known them longest like them best. Almost invariably those who harshly disparage them are people who are coarse or narrow or bigoted. They are not a sour or sullen folk. Smile at them and back comes a look that puts you on a footing of mutual understanding. Their lively sense of humor is a bond that unites them to the foreigner.

Ross (1866-1951) is an odd person for Midler to quote in this context. He would himself be denounced as the worst kind of bigot today. He was a race realist, nativist, and eugenicist who strongly objected to race mixing—so strongly, he was fired from his professorship at Stanford in 1900 for his views.

Much as he liked the Chinese, Ross did not want them settling in the U.S.A. This is a perfectly tenable position, although intolerably shocking to present-day orthodoxies.

Ross got the likability right, though, and “those who have known them longest like them best.” (Rodney Gilbert may have been an exception.)

And to the further collective credit of the Chinese must be added this: Unlike the nations of the West today, they have no intention of opening up the borders of their nation to tens of millions of foreigners. Stupidity on that scale is peculiarly Western.

What’s wrong with us?

2010-12-24dl[1] John Derbyshire [email him] writes an incredible amount on all sorts of subjects for all kinds of outlets. (This no longer includes National Review, whose editors had some kind of tantrum and fired him. ) He is the author of We Are Doomed: Reclaiming Conservative Pessimism and several other books. He has had two books published by VDARE.com com:FROM THE DISSIDENT RIGHT (also available in Kindle) and FROM THE DISSIDENT RIGHT II: ESSAYS 2013.

(Republished from VDare by permission of author or representative)
 
• Category: History • Tags: China, Chinese 
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  1. Ron Unz says:

    For anyone interested, here’s a convenient copy of E.A. Ross’s 1911 book on the Chinese as mentioned above. Ross was one of America’s greatest early sociologists, and I’d recommend it very highly:

    http://www.unz.com/book/e_a_ross__the-changing-chinese/

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    • Replies: @Eustace Tilley (not)
    Mr. Unz:

    How can we unworthy guests to your website thank you enough?

    , @Eagle Eye
    Our gentle host Mr. Unz is too modest to mention his own highly pertinent articles on genetic factors in China's development:

    How Social Darwinism Made Modern China

    and

    China: Chinese Eugenics?

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  2. fnn says:

    In the 1930s, Ralph Townsend was convinced that his contemporaries wrote nothing as accurate as that which was produced by Arthur Smith [1890s] and Abbé Huc [1840s]…

    Ralph Townsend was an interesting character (like apparently everyone mentioned) who was heavily persecuted by the FDR admin for his views:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ralph_Townsend

    Following the US entry into World War II Townsend was arrested for acting as a Japanese agent without registering under the Foreign Agents Registration Act. He pleaded guilty, admitting that he had accepted payments before the war from a propaganda organization funded by the Japanese government, but denying that he was a Japanese agent. He received a prison sentence and while serving was involved in the Great Sedition Trial.

    In 2004 a Japanese translation of the Barnes Review edition of Ways That Are Dark was released in Japan where it became a runaway success[121] and quickly elevated Townsend to “hero” status among the Japanese far right.[122]

    The opinion of recent scholars on the quality of his writing have been mixed. Limin Chu, who analyzed his articles on China for the Overland Monthly and Out West Magazine, considered some of the claims as “either incredibly gullible or deliberately vicious”,[123] while historian Justus Doenecke described his pamphlets as “crudely written”.[124] In contrast, Peter O’Connor, professor at Musashino University, found the same pamphlets “well-argued and researched.”[125]

    No surprise that the white guy working in Japan likes him.

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  3. anon • Disclaimer says:

    “What’s wrong with us”?

    I have been asking myself that very question for a long time. Canada, Australia, New Zealand & the USA were all settled and developed by white peoples. Why they have permitted such massive demographic changes, which would have horrified previous generations, is something I simply cannot understand. We were told that Canada couldn’t “function” in the British commonwealth & the UN with a (more or less) white only immigration policy. Why Canada couldn’t have just left these pointless and moribund organiations I don’t understand. I personally suspect it had something to do with vote-hunting by the Liberal party (please substitute the party of the left in the other places).

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    • Replies: @Peter Akuleyev
    The "right" has also been a major contributor to demographic change, and has often been its main cheerleader. It wasn't the left that imported slaves, insisted that we let millions of cheap workers flood the country and the 19th century, and once again opened the door to cheap labor in the 1960s. In both America and Europe, Capital has always used immigrants as a weapon to undermine trade unions and the power domestic laborers have. A rapidly growing economy will always be vulnerable to demographic change as the elite chases cheap labor, even Rome suffered from that.

    Asia has avoided the problem thus far simply by having so many poor people willing to work at low wages. This is beginning to catch up with them. Japan has responded by investing heavily in robotics and consciously deciding to shrink its economy long term, we will see if Korea and China can do the same. My guess is that China, with its shortage of women, pressure for growth and less centralized control, is going to have a harder time keeping the gates closed.
    , @animalogic
    I can only speak for Australia.
    The analogy of boilng the frog comes to mind.
    Prior to WWII there was very minimal non-anglo immigration. (Tiny Chinese community- active official racism)
    After WWII we under went the " populate or perish" government policy. Active government encouragement of immigration from the UK ...AND Italy, Greece etc. This proved something bof a culture shock.
    However, by the 70's that immigration had been digested.... just in time for the flood of Vietnamese refugees. This was felt to be a moral obligation not ideology. Then came the Lebanese & political correctness in the late 70-80's. After that: open slather, full throttle PC, no holds barred. So -- 2018....
    , @unpc downunder
    In an authoritarian state, the government can move right on economic issues while staying conservative on social issues like immigration. You can't seem to do this in a western democracy. If you shift right on economic issues you end up having to shift left on a range of social issues. Conversely, if you want to push some conservative social policies you need to push left on the economic front to attract the working and lower-middle class.

    Since the economic shift to the right in the late 1970s, there has been a decreasing amount of political space to push right-wing social policies and views. Trump has move the Overton window a little to the right, but if his rhetoric about helping the white working class rings hollow, then the window will shift left again.

    , @pilgrim
    Could it be divine curse for supporting those that hate Jesus Christ the joos ?
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  4. “No one is sure when it began, but the phrase “I’m having a bad China day” has become synonymous with the expatriate experience …”

    Related:

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    • Replies: @ve1
    the guys who made those videos are spooks
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  5. jim jones says:

    Have a heart attack in China and people will just walk around you:

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    • Replies: @Moi
    Here, in the US, we just walk over them, no?
    , @anonymous
    The paleface fellow has spread much mischief around the world.

    What have others of his kind done about the resulting slaughter?

    Something along the lines of "...will just walk around you"?
    , @in the middle
    Man, I can't stand those people! they are arrogant, haughty, and harmful to America! I promised my self not to purchase any garbage they produce, as long as I can, and since I have need of nothing of theirs, I only need food and few other things, that are produced in the good old USA. Believe it, you can still purchase items made in USA, all you do have to do is to look for them.

    It looks like there is a conspiracy against us in our own country! I was in Europe, and surprise! surprise, their stores' shelves are full of items made in Europe! Why can we just do the same?
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  6. gT says:

    Good to see a more or less proper academic investigation into this phenomena. I’ve only noticed it in the last year or 2, on most websites the Western doctrine of more or less adherence to truth and reason held comfortably firm with some NeoCon and nitwit exceptions, but then the Chinese doctrine of chaotic, illogical vitriol just flooded in. I was taken aback for awhile but now just respond in kind with some tax added on top.

    Some say that the Cultural Revolution destroyed the roots of Chinese culture and “Add in the deprivation, the cannibalism, the starvation, and what was left of the Chinese people when Deng started his reforms were an amoral lot seeking wealth and fortune at any cost. Can’t really blame them.” But your article makes it clear that this Chinese mindset has always been there and so will never change, much like the Jewish view of their position on this planet and on the Goyim has always been there and will never change.

    Good to see something different being written instead of the usual “West is Bad, China is good” nonsense which as been flooding the internet for some time now. There is good and bad in everything, in both the West and China.

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  7. Realist says:

    “What’s wrong with us?”

    No pride in self.

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    • Replies: @Anonym
    What's wrong with us?

    I think a confluence of factors. I can list if you like, but it has partly been extended by a lot of addictions of the modern world.

    However, it seems to me that it can't last. White people are prone to fashions, both of clothing and of thought. We tend to overdo things. Religion hasn't been a constant. Piousness ebbs and flows. We have Extraordinary Delusions and Madness of Crowds. We go way too far the one way, then finally when we think that this is the way things will always be, it suddenly ends. Maybe it takes a little while like the hippie era, or maybe it ends abruptly like disco.

    We have an equilibrium in terms of altruism vs ethnocentrism. We have had every force attempt to push us in the direction of pathological altruism, self-loathing, false virtue signalling and the like. It has taken systems of mass indoctrination to get us to this point. The movement back has already started. Generally the further things are pushed from equilibrium, the greater the momentum and energy they have when they rebound towards equilibrium, and yes, there is some overshoot.

    Comically:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8JqycAn0hY

    Not so comically. What's wrong with us? What's wrong with the low sea level?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dug6H00PwsU&t=0m54s
    , @Weaver1
    No. We lost our piety, traditions, and the wisdom of our ancestors. We lost pride in our history and culture.

    We instead just assumed we could "progress" forward with magical science and individualism, that our natural genetic superiority would inexplicably propel us without the need of additional aids.

    There's no group of people on Earth more easily manipulated than an uprooted English nuclear-family individualist who knows no history and has no traditional safeguards and community ties. And our extreme "capitalism" seems to naturally lead a society to socialism, though we pretend it's the great alternative.

    While technology is important, we still see "right wing" Europeans praising our "Faustian spirit"; they seem to worship "progress" as a sort of religion and whites as that agent of "progress". They've embraced madness.

    -

    We also grew soft from success and other reasons. Perhaps it's true that were Jews not so powerful, European Christians would have righted things eventually. But our open, individualistic system enabled their great power.

    The US seems to have been behind much of the leftward shift among Europeans, post-WWII. Looking at the "conservative movement" in the US:

    The Greeks knew a large middle class to be beneficial, but "conservatives" viewed such as "socialist".

    The Greeks knew the importance of culture, wouldn't have allowed Hollywood to destroy society. But "conservatives" valued the free market. The Greeks wouldn't have allowed Marxists to take over the universities either.

    And the Greeks knew overly large societies could be dangerous. And we have other legitimate conservative voices warning us of the unstable changes society had made.

    It's the Godforesaken "conservative movement" (not to be confused with actual conservatives) that deserves some of the blame. It wasn't only FOX and Conservative Inc but also the worship of ideology among many independent conservative Americans who should have known better. Just a brief reading of Aristotle and Belloc or even Machiavelli and Livy would have snapped them out of some of their foolishness.

    If we had pushed for a larger middle class back in the 60s (and continued to focus on preserving the middle class), maybe the 1965 immigration act and other policies wouldn't have passed. Then other improvements could have been made to the system. But it was seen as essentially "socialist" to resist socialism.
    , @Anonymous
    The Holocaust is a tremendous black mark against western civilisation. It's the worst crime in recorded history and invalidates any western pretensions of superiority over anyone else.
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  8. Jason Liu says:

    ‎✓ Disgruntled expat masking hurt feelings with cultural criticism
    ‎✓ Information drawn from outdated 1920s missionary stereotypes
    ‎✓ Unironic reference to Ralph Townsend
    ‎✓ Taiwan as a stepping stone for hating the mainland
    ‎✓ Someone screwed me in business now I hate China

    The only thing missing from Midler’s resume is “ESL teacher”

    Listen, Chinese people are perfectly aware of Chinese society’s shortcomings. The “Ugly Chinaman” trope — deceit, corner-cutting, greed, face-saving, dog-eat-dog mentality that all stem from excessive materialism — has been described in some form by Chinese commentators since at least the 13th century.

    Chinese people, including me, are often critical of these issues in private, but less so to foreigners. China has always been a harsh, densely populated rat race where being moral puts you at a disadvantage. I’m sorry a lot of foreigners didn’t know this going in, but people aren’t going to become nicer until there is a substantial period of wealth and higher living standards, like in Taiwan or Singapore. We don’t need any more assblasted expats feeling bitter about every single thing in China. People like Midler writing this in 2018 should realize that this is the era when China finally starts transitioning to a nicer place.

    As for politics, I’m not convinced liberal democracy is a superior system, or even a lasting one. Even accounting for potential tyrants, the authoritarian state is still better equipped to rapidly and decisively deal with existential threats to the nation, especially internal ones. Equality other than basic legal protections is not desirable at all. Universal suffrage is the dumbest idea in the history of political thought. Freedom is hardly the most important thing in society, and even then most Chinese people do not feel unfree, because most people in any society don’t intend on being dissidents. The major gripe about freedoms in China is not about any particular political topic, but rather the internet blocking of foreign sites that hold entertainment value (Youtube, Instagram, etc).

    I agree that Chinese nationalism can be arrogant and hypersensitive. Angry nationalists should tone it down and ask whether or not hating some other country/group actually benefits China. Most of the hate directed at our neighbors is pointless, counterproductive, just pride for the sake of pride. However, after living in the west, I firmly believe that nationalism is basically a positive thing for humanity, despite its excesses. Tribal feeling and the friendly competition that results is the greatest engine of true progress ever known. Given a choice between the west’s self-loathing “open society” and China’s current system, I’d pick the nationalist autocracy any day.

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    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman

    As for politics, I’m not convinced liberal democracy is a superior system, or even a lasting one. Even accounting for potential tyrants, the authoritarian state is still better equipped to rapidly and decisively deal with existential threats to the nation, especially internal ones. Equality other than basic legal protections is not desirable at all.
     
    It sounds, from your writing, that you have been here in America for a long time, but apparently not long enough to know much of the history of this country. We are not supposed to be a liberal democracy - a Constitutional Republic was the government formed by our founders and it specifically specified a SMALL GOVERNMENT. The kind of nationally-suicidal stuff going on would not have been let to happen if Americans had some control of the Feral Government over the last 5 decades.

    Equality as equal protection under the law IS the only equality specified in the Constitution. The American Constitutional Republic form of government was the best ever devised and beats all hell out of any authoritative regime, even under a Star-Trek-type "Good Chairman Mao".

    Universal suffrage is the dumbest idea in the history of political thought.
     
    AGREED, and also not part of the founders plan for Federal government, BTW

    ... .even then most Chinese people do not feel unfree, because most people in any society don’t intend on being dissidents.
     
    Sure, the nail that sticks up gets hammered down. Maybe you've got cause and effect backwards, Jason. The Chinese don't want to be dissidents, because authoritarian government will squash them (with a tank). So, the Chinese feel pretty free not to become dissidents, is that the logic?
    , @Achmed E. Newman

    China has always been a harsh, densely populated rat race where being moral puts you at a disadvantage. I’m sorry a lot of foreigners didn’t know this going in, but people aren’t going to become nicer until there is a substantial period of wealth and higher living standards, like in Taiwan or Singapore.
     
    On this part, I agree with you, Mr. Liu. Living in close quarters does not allow for as much freedom. I have stated in an post about picking blackberries (US vs. China), China is lots more crowded than people would think from just population and land area on the map.

    Do you know that China had more people, over 400 million, in the middle of the Qing Dynasty, back before 1900 AD, than we have now? It's been overpopulated for a long time, and keep in mind that, though the land area on a map looks close to that of the continental US, the western 40% of that is just Tibet and Xinjiang , both just mostly barely-inhabited mountains and high desert. Then the other 60% is mostly mountainous. I'd estimate the population density of China as 15 X what we have in America, not 5 X, as one might think from a glance at the globe.
     
    America had only 200,000,000 in this great big land of ours 4 decades ago or so. As Peak Stupidity also stated:

    Can we learn a lesson here? Do Americans want to live like that, with no way to really get out away from anyone and see the land in it's pristine state? See, the Chinese have a long history of living close together - even out in the country, so to speak, they live in villages of a few hundred and farm their small plots around these villages. Here, we all can realistically dream of living on 10 acres or more, and we like to be where we can't even see any neighbors! The treehuggers don't want to talk about immigration though, remember; it's not nice, and they all want to be nice, even it means their children will inherit a crowded hellhole. People might call you names and shit, can't have that, right?
     
    , @gT
    Agreed with everything you are saying, more or less, except for the political scenario. I've got a problem with some animals being more equal than others in the Animal Farm sense, too much of the Western equality before the law individualistic anti-authoritarian nature in me, so it has to be different strokes for different folks on the political issue.

    But this business of Chinese "people aren’t going to become nicer until there is a substantial period of wealth and higher living standards". Is there ever going to be a substantial period of wealth and higher living standards in China?

    I think not. China's current wealth and higher living standards are due to globalization. Globalization is disappearing because of the problems the global economies are going through, economic protectionism has already kicked in and its only going to get worse. Western countries are dependent on debt for their GDP, the people are maxed out on debt, no more economic growth possible via that route. So the substantial period part of the substantial period of wealth and higher living standards is not possible.

    China's people are going to remain the same as they are now and have always been.

    I don't even think that there is enough resources on this planet for a substantial period of wealth and higher living standards for the 1.4 billion people in China to become nice.

    , @SimplePseudonymicHandle
    I don't know if it was that bad - which isn't to defend it - Derbyshire in the post himself takes steps to qualify its shortcomings at the outset.

    Here's how I read it: China isn't perfect - indeed, China has real problems and maybe more salient - real shortcomings that will be difficult to overcome and of which we should practice some skepticism that they even will be overcome.

    That's purely my POV, I could have been reading too much into it, however, the POV comes from here: I do in fact have a sense of China as a real place, and Chinese as real people, and like all real places and real people there are certain intractable problems in China that are profoundly self-limiting to Chinese collective advancement.

    Before getting to why that's important bear this in mind: the exact same thing can be said of the US. On another thread nearby a commenter notes the contrast between Mormon culture and southern culture - these reflect self-limiting features in American culture and politics that seem intractable and resistant to efforts to overcome. Add to that: our identity politics, short-term symbolism over long-term substance. America: she got problems.

    But so often we get the "rising China" scare article and all manner of mischief is promoted on the basis that we are supposed to fear an inexorably rising China. Articles like this can be a welcome antidote to that. Americans commit all manner of ideological, political, cultural and geo-political mistakes with their superhumanizing of Chinese (i.e.: Kissinger, "the Chinese are smarter than us" ... cue a Unz Review Peanut Gallery HBD fan to sneer with some laconic wit via some IQ remark (ehem, cough, cough - PISA in China is only in Shanghai, think ... think about that, study up on the background, then think ) )

    Everyone does China better to neither denigrate Chinese, nor superhumanize them.
    , @dfordoom

    Universal suffrage is the dumbest idea in the history of political thought. Freedom is hardly the most important thing in society
     
    A lot of people in the West (in fact almost everyone in the West) have this crazy idea that democracy and freedom are the same thing. They aren't. In fact it could be argued that democracy is the mortal enemy of freedom (and I suspect most of America's Founding Fathers would agree).

    Democracies inevitably end up being more repressive than authoritarian regimes, because dissent is a greater threat in a democracy. Authoritarian regimes impose limits on what you can do. Liberal democracies seek to impose limits on what you can think.
    , @John Derbyshire
    This is a great thread, with a high level of thoughtful comment, far above the "We good, they bad" level that informs way too much cultural commentary in BOTH China and the West. Thanks to all who are contributing.
    , @Ace
    Excellent comment.
    , @Rdm
    I agree that this sentiment is shared among western educated Chinese people, including Hong Kong, Singapore, Australia, etc etc.

    However, your comment would be labeled as "Uncle Tom" by far leftist. Nationalism is good in a sense that as long as it serves Chinese interest to its core. This may explain why CCP assumes its foreign policy as non-interfering and stay neutral to sovereign countries. This also reflects the very core nature of Chinese people, especially from mainland, which in a way appears as clannish, closed, sneaky manners that gives the impression that Chinese only cares for themselves and only interested in looking for opportunities that they could to better themselves.

    Chinese calling White expats as "Laowai" in China is as good as White Americans telling "I love Chinese people". If there is a angermometer, Blacks will be listed on top, followed by Whites and East Asians will be at the bottom, that is how good and strong Confucius value is ingrained in every generation of Chinese people.

    If "nationalism" is full blown in White Americas, let alone other parts of the globe, Mr. Liu, in all honesty, you won't be having this conversation in Unz, you'll be dead as Vincent Chin. You will be called "Chink" every corner of the street in a derogatory term. The last day you embarked upon that voyage to a new world, while far looking at your waving wife standing on the dock will be the last day you will ever see your wife in Imperial China. Every piece of land you think you will make a fortune in the future, will await with Chinese massacre in history: Indonesia, Malaysia, Singapore, Burma, and now you landed in far flung Australia and think you're free from massacre and found yourself in the part of the Chinese history making in Australia. Your old friend who believed the new world would be far better off with gold rush windfall found himself castrating his golden balls with CEA, miscegenation law and literally turned himself into another eunuch in this new world.

    As a matter of fact, "breakup" of White nationalism was the major driving force that let Chinese descents to achieve in the US. Credits where credit is due, Chinese will never achieve the highest positions in the US without shrewd, yet manipulative Jewish presence. All the higher positions Chinese now held in the US Congress were the offshoot of "Diversity" mantra spread across the country by Jewish media. Remember this is a side-effect rather a targeted achievement.

    The day you wish Nationalism will be reemerged in the US, Jews will be outed first and then be ready for another chink documents coded in a pretentious filibuster.

    As far as everyone's concerned, no one wants a way of Jewish living or Chinese living.

    Only when we get to the stage where everyone yearns a way of Chinese living, you can then safely write a White paper to call out the nationalism in every country. Until then be careful what you wish for, Mr. Liu.
    , @Randal
    Excellent riposte to [the description of] Midler's book. I'm reading it now - about half way through and I am quite enjoying it even though I get the feeling I don't much like the author. Too US neocon for my liking.

    However, he's clearly very intelligent and very experienced in doing business in China at high levels. His opinions, making due allowance for American neocon biases, have weight behind them.
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  9. Surging Sinophobia in US shows lack of confidence: http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1088494.shtml

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  10. @anon
    "What's wrong with us"?

    I have been asking myself that very question for a long time. Canada, Australia, New Zealand & the USA were all settled and developed by white peoples. Why they have permitted such massive demographic changes, which would have horrified previous generations, is something I simply cannot understand. We were told that Canada couldn't "function" in the British commonwealth & the UN with a (more or less) white only immigration policy. Why Canada couldn't have just left these pointless and moribund organiations I don't understand. I personally suspect it had something to do with vote-hunting by the Liberal party (please substitute the party of the left in the other places).

    The “right” has also been a major contributor to demographic change, and has often been its main cheerleader. It wasn’t the left that imported slaves, insisted that we let millions of cheap workers flood the country and the 19th century, and once again opened the door to cheap labor in the 1960s. In both America and Europe, Capital has always used immigrants as a weapon to undermine trade unions and the power domestic laborers have. A rapidly growing economy will always be vulnerable to demographic change as the elite chases cheap labor, even Rome suffered from that.

    Asia has avoided the problem thus far simply by having so many poor people willing to work at low wages. This is beginning to catch up with them. Japan has responded by investing heavily in robotics and consciously deciding to shrink its economy long term, we will see if Korea and China can do the same. My guess is that China, with its shortage of women, pressure for growth and less centralized control, is going to have a harder time keeping the gates closed.

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    • Replies: @myself
    Peter Akuleyev says:
    February 19, 2018 at 11:00 am GMT • 200 Words


    My guess is that China, with its shortage of women, pressure for growth and less centralized control, is going to have a harder time keeping the gates closed.
    ___________________________________________________________________________________

    Of the 3 nations you mentioned (China, Korea, Japan), China is actually by far the most ruthless in enforcing central control. I honestly would not at all be surprised if they deploy the army to remove even defiant provincial governors, if it came to that.

    For example, the utter and complete INSANITY occurring now in America, the self-proclaimed Sanctuary Cities for illegals, simply would not be conceivable in China.

    Sanctuary cities are cities essentially proclaiming themselves exempt and above federal law. Turn it around, and the Mainstream Media wouldn't like it. What if some cities made chattel slavery LEGAL in their jurisdiction? The media would go nuts. But since the defiant cities favor illegals, it's all good, huh?

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  11. I shouldn’t be surprised that Derbyshire would quote Midler considering his own paucity of knowledge that primarily stems from marrying a race traitor.

    Midler is the Malcom Gladwell of China hands, writing pithy “just-so” anecdotes that sound plausible to the ignorant but collapse once his theories are subject to the rigorous scrutiny. His tea example being one of them, flat our wrong, but plausible sounding if you are relying on faulty heuristics.

    The reason that China drives some white expats nutty as it were has a deeper psychological reason. The same type of oriental fatigue exists all throughout the far east but it primarily stems from resentment engendered by two factors. Reality not matching up with wishful expectations and the contempt engendered by unwarranted generosity. The Chinese are not isolationist enough and far too charitable with the Westerners among them, giving them too much for so little. Like the spoiling of a child, this creates a sense of entitlement among certain caliber of expats that manifests as seething resentment towards their benefactors. No doubt some whites will take umbrage at this observation but consider if you will the simmering hostility and contempt with which Muslim immigrants in Europe regard the natives, natives whose tax dollars pay for their welfare benefits. It’s a very human failing that stems from a character flaw.

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    • Troll: AndrewR
    • Replies: @Panopticon
    You have some of the best comments and perspectives on China I've ever seen. Please consider having a blog.
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  12. @Ron Unz
    For anyone interested, here's a convenient copy of E.A. Ross's 1911 book on the Chinese as mentioned above. Ross was one of America's greatest early sociologists, and I'd recommend it very highly:

    http://www.unz.com/book/e_a_ross__the-changing-chinese/

    Mr. Unz:

    How can we unworthy guests to your website thank you enough?

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  13. I know Russians of all political persuasions. Yet, amazingly, not one of them feels persuaded morally that Chechnya or Crimea should not be part of their country(I’m sure some exist, just not in my circle). And yet you seem so surprised that Chinese of various political persuasions have equally little fervor in splitting up their country.

    Whataboutism is boring, so I won’t go there. But it should be obvious that going around encouraging separatism in a country might find that idea rejected, especially separatism to create mutually hostile neighbors.

    One might even suspect ulterior motives there.

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    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
    I don't think derb would be happy till chinese are groveling at his feet :) with his superior genes and all :) a chinese civil war and chinese killing each other is probably his wet dream.

    and so many retarded serpenza video links in the comments. the guy is literally cancer to actual knowledge and information.

    , @Greasy William

    I know Russians of all political persuasions. Yet, amazingly, not one of them feels persuaded morally that Chechnya or Crimea should not be part of their country
     
    You sure about Chechnya? I'm pretty sure the Russian right wants out of Chechnya.
    , @turbine
    I don't know how some people still don't know that Crimea held a referendum and 90% voted to RETURN to Russia. As usual, the neocons shot themselves in the foot. By installing a rabidly Russia-hating regime in Ukraine, neocons caused the referendum. It just so happens that the great majority of Crimeans are ethnic Russian, so Ukrainian plans to remove Russian as an official language was certifiably stupid. The neocons and others can howl into the wind forever, but Crimea is not going back to Ukraine. The neocons destroyed Ukraine's economy (50% drop in GDP!) and encouraged violence by neo-Nazis. Crimea is way too good for economically and psychically (pure juvenile hatred) ruined Ukraine.
    Of course, you would not know any of this from the MSM. I have read articles from journalists around the world, who visited Crimea as sceptics, but all agreed that yes, 90% really did choose Russia.
    Deep State/MSM likes keeping us ignorant.
    , @ve1
    i doubt it. when vietnam, and outer mongolia split from china, there was very little resistance from the chinese populace
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  14. Another book on the subject that I’d recommend is The Tyranny of History by W.J.F Jenner.

    Jenner was an Australian diplomat who spent a considerable amount of time in China and came away with a pretty accurate view of things like why, for example, the common areas of Chinese apartment buildings are often so dumpy even if the building is inhabited by wealthy people.

    I spent years living among Chinese people in both Taiwan and the mainland and came away with a generally positive impression of them. On the whole, they’re energetic, dynamic, friendly and hospitable people. The hyper sensitive nationalism of the mainlanders (As everyone knows, Taiwan is a part of the mainland!) for now, remains problematic however.

    If they grow and mature and mellow out like the Taiwanese, they’ll be fine.

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    • Replies: @Duke of Qin
    God I hope not. The Taiwanese are a bunch of boring deracinate cucks who are happy to follow the West into oblivion if it means some additional status points for themselves. The Mainlanders need double down on the nationalism. Not the shitty "big state" nationalism of the Communist Party though (analogous to Putin's version of Russian Nationalism or even the dominant strain of American nationalism), rather the natural tribal racial nationalism of the Han people. Volkish race nationalism good; Imperialist boilerplate masquerading as nationalism, bad.
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  15. Anonym says:
    @Realist
    "What’s wrong with us?"

    No pride in self.

    What’s wrong with us?

    I think a confluence of factors. I can list if you like, but it has partly been extended by a lot of addictions of the modern world.

    However, it seems to me that it can’t last. White people are prone to fashions, both of clothing and of thought. We tend to overdo things. Religion hasn’t been a constant. Piousness ebbs and flows. We have Extraordinary Delusions and Madness of Crowds. We go way too far the one way, then finally when we think that this is the way things will always be, it suddenly ends. Maybe it takes a little while like the hippie era, or maybe it ends abruptly like disco.

    We have an equilibrium in terms of altruism vs ethnocentrism. We have had every force attempt to push us in the direction of pathological altruism, self-loathing, false virtue signalling and the like. It has taken systems of mass indoctrination to get us to this point. The movement back has already started. Generally the further things are pushed from equilibrium, the greater the momentum and energy they have when they rebound towards equilibrium, and yes, there is some overshoot.

    Comically:

    Not so comically. What’s wrong with us? What’s wrong with the low sea level?

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    • Replies: @Bill
    The "tsunami" video is funny. Everyone in the video is talking about the tide. Nobody in the video is talking about harbors.

    Tsunami is definitely a better name than tidal wave. Definitely. Glad our betters fixed that for us.
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  16. @Jason Liu
    ‎✓ Disgruntled expat masking hurt feelings with cultural criticism
    ‎✓ Information drawn from outdated 1920s missionary stereotypes
    ‎✓ Unironic reference to Ralph Townsend
    ‎✓ Taiwan as a stepping stone for hating the mainland
    ‎✓ Someone screwed me in business now I hate China

    The only thing missing from Midler's resume is "ESL teacher"

    Listen, Chinese people are perfectly aware of Chinese society's shortcomings. The "Ugly Chinaman" trope -- deceit, corner-cutting, greed, face-saving, dog-eat-dog mentality that all stem from excessive materialism -- has been described in some form by Chinese commentators since at least the 13th century.

    Chinese people, including me, are often critical of these issues in private, but less so to foreigners. China has always been a harsh, densely populated rat race where being moral puts you at a disadvantage. I'm sorry a lot of foreigners didn't know this going in, but people aren't going to become nicer until there is a substantial period of wealth and higher living standards, like in Taiwan or Singapore. We don't need any more assblasted expats feeling bitter about every single thing in China. People like Midler writing this in 2018 should realize that this is the era when China finally starts transitioning to a nicer place.

    As for politics, I'm not convinced liberal democracy is a superior system, or even a lasting one. Even accounting for potential tyrants, the authoritarian state is still better equipped to rapidly and decisively deal with existential threats to the nation, especially internal ones. Equality other than basic legal protections is not desirable at all. Universal suffrage is the dumbest idea in the history of political thought. Freedom is hardly the most important thing in society, and even then most Chinese people do not feel unfree, because most people in any society don't intend on being dissidents. The major gripe about freedoms in China is not about any particular political topic, but rather the internet blocking of foreign sites that hold entertainment value (Youtube, Instagram, etc).

    I agree that Chinese nationalism can be arrogant and hypersensitive. Angry nationalists should tone it down and ask whether or not hating some other country/group actually benefits China. Most of the hate directed at our neighbors is pointless, counterproductive, just pride for the sake of pride. However, after living in the west, I firmly believe that nationalism is basically a positive thing for humanity, despite its excesses. Tribal feeling and the friendly competition that results is the greatest engine of true progress ever known. Given a choice between the west's self-loathing "open society" and China's current system, I'd pick the nationalist autocracy any day.

    As for politics, I’m not convinced liberal democracy is a superior system, or even a lasting one. Even accounting for potential tyrants, the authoritarian state is still better equipped to rapidly and decisively deal with existential threats to the nation, especially internal ones. Equality other than basic legal protections is not desirable at all.

    It sounds, from your writing, that you have been here in America for a long time, but apparently not long enough to know much of the history of this country. We are not supposed to be a liberal democracy – a Constitutional Republic was the government formed by our founders and it specifically specified a SMALL GOVERNMENT. The kind of nationally-suicidal stuff going on would not have been let to happen if Americans had some control of the Feral Government over the last 5 decades.

    Equality as equal protection under the law IS the only equality specified in the Constitution. The American Constitutional Republic form of government was the best ever devised and beats all hell out of any authoritative regime, even under a Star-Trek-type “Good Chairman Mao”.

    Universal suffrage is the dumbest idea in the history of political thought.

    AGREED, and also not part of the founders plan for Federal government, BTW

    … .even then most Chinese people do not feel unfree, because most people in any society don’t intend on being dissidents.

    Sure, the nail that sticks up gets hammered down. Maybe you’ve got cause and effect backwards, Jason. The Chinese don’t want to be dissidents, because authoritarian government will squash them (with a tank). So, the Chinese feel pretty free not to become dissidents, is that the logic?

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    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    AGREED, and also not part of the founders plan for Federal government, BTW

     

    But its hard to argue that they didn't suspect it'll get to this point. They even wrote it about themselves that any line for voting could be seen as arbitrary. I think it was Adams that wrote something like: "If it is limited to white men of great property, why not white men of small property? If limited to white men of property, why not all white men? Why not all men, instead of white men? And so on..."

    The incentives in a democracy ultimately don't line up not to move toward universal suffrage, because the opposition party always needs to bring in more voters to buttress their ranks. Of course, the founders were opposed to parties and cliques too, but the necessity of it was such that they were effectively creating their own even as they wrote against it.

    Perhaps its different in an European multiparty democracy with no clear opposition, only coalitions. Nonetheless, universal suffrage seems to be the rule there too, so perhaps the only difference is that opposition party is replaced by opposition coalition.
    , @Jason Liu
    I know how America was founded, but fact is today it practices and preaches liberal democracy with universal suffrage, and its egalitarian culture goes far beyond what's stated in the constitution. It also seems to expect that every other country on Earth should do the same, or be labelled evil.

    Government tends to grow over time until everything burns down in a revolution or something similar. I don't foresee a return to small government republicanism anytime soon.
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  17. @Jason Liu
    ‎✓ Disgruntled expat masking hurt feelings with cultural criticism
    ‎✓ Information drawn from outdated 1920s missionary stereotypes
    ‎✓ Unironic reference to Ralph Townsend
    ‎✓ Taiwan as a stepping stone for hating the mainland
    ‎✓ Someone screwed me in business now I hate China

    The only thing missing from Midler's resume is "ESL teacher"

    Listen, Chinese people are perfectly aware of Chinese society's shortcomings. The "Ugly Chinaman" trope -- deceit, corner-cutting, greed, face-saving, dog-eat-dog mentality that all stem from excessive materialism -- has been described in some form by Chinese commentators since at least the 13th century.

    Chinese people, including me, are often critical of these issues in private, but less so to foreigners. China has always been a harsh, densely populated rat race where being moral puts you at a disadvantage. I'm sorry a lot of foreigners didn't know this going in, but people aren't going to become nicer until there is a substantial period of wealth and higher living standards, like in Taiwan or Singapore. We don't need any more assblasted expats feeling bitter about every single thing in China. People like Midler writing this in 2018 should realize that this is the era when China finally starts transitioning to a nicer place.

    As for politics, I'm not convinced liberal democracy is a superior system, or even a lasting one. Even accounting for potential tyrants, the authoritarian state is still better equipped to rapidly and decisively deal with existential threats to the nation, especially internal ones. Equality other than basic legal protections is not desirable at all. Universal suffrage is the dumbest idea in the history of political thought. Freedom is hardly the most important thing in society, and even then most Chinese people do not feel unfree, because most people in any society don't intend on being dissidents. The major gripe about freedoms in China is not about any particular political topic, but rather the internet blocking of foreign sites that hold entertainment value (Youtube, Instagram, etc).

    I agree that Chinese nationalism can be arrogant and hypersensitive. Angry nationalists should tone it down and ask whether or not hating some other country/group actually benefits China. Most of the hate directed at our neighbors is pointless, counterproductive, just pride for the sake of pride. However, after living in the west, I firmly believe that nationalism is basically a positive thing for humanity, despite its excesses. Tribal feeling and the friendly competition that results is the greatest engine of true progress ever known. Given a choice between the west's self-loathing "open society" and China's current system, I'd pick the nationalist autocracy any day.

    China has always been a harsh, densely populated rat race where being moral puts you at a disadvantage. I’m sorry a lot of foreigners didn’t know this going in, but people aren’t going to become nicer until there is a substantial period of wealth and higher living standards, like in Taiwan or Singapore.

    On this part, I agree with you, Mr. Liu. Living in close quarters does not allow for as much freedom. I have stated in an post about picking blackberries (US vs. China), China is lots more crowded than people would think from just population and land area on the map.

    Do you know that China had more people, over 400 million, in the middle of the Qing Dynasty, back before 1900 AD, than we have now? It’s been overpopulated for a long time, and keep in mind that, though the land area on a map looks close to that of the continental US, the western 40% of that is just Tibet and Xinjiang , both just mostly barely-inhabited mountains and high desert. Then the other 60% is mostly mountainous. I’d estimate the population density of China as 15 X what we have in America, not 5 X, as one might think from a glance at the globe.

    America had only 200,000,000 in this great big land of ours 4 decades ago or so. As Peak Stupidity also stated:

    Can we learn a lesson here? Do Americans want to live like that, with no way to really get out away from anyone and see the land in it’s pristine state? See, the Chinese have a long history of living close together – even out in the country, so to speak, they live in villages of a few hundred and farm their small plots around these villages. Here, we all can realistically dream of living on 10 acres or more, and we like to be where we can’t even see any neighbors! The treehuggers don’t want to talk about immigration though, remember; it’s not nice, and they all want to be nice, even it means their children will inherit a crowded hellhole. People might call you names and shit, can’t have that, right?

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  18. Clyde says:

    An Amazon review for Poorly Made in China by Paul Midler:

    [MORE]

    Like he was with me on every buy
    July 16, 2010
    Format: Hardcover|Verified Purchase
    I have done business in China since 1986. I know from experience how tricky and dangerous it is, especially for the newcomer. Curiously Mr. Midler refers to suppliers in Shantou (Canton Province) and I too have many suppliers there. Apparently this behavior amongst the Chinese is across the board no matter what product you work with. And they don’t care no matter what threats or promises you make. I actually had one supplier who told me he would no longer sell to me because “you complain too much”! No loss to me, easily replaced you can be sure. Communists or not, the almighty greenback is king in China but as Mr. Midler makes very clear, it is not going to get you what you think you contracted for. Something close, maybe, but not right on target.

    The Chinese screwed up so many of my shipments that I got the distinct impression that the translaters were interpreting my directions, not translating them. So I spent years learning to speak Mandarin. I am totally fluent now, have often been mistaken for being Chinese on the telephone by those who had not yet met me. No matter, I told them straight out what I wanted in their own language and STILL they basically did it wrong to shave off a few bucks to their advantage. I could never understand that way of thinking, in America we keep the customers happy to perpetuate our business with them, we do not consistently antagonize them. This book will open your eyes if you want to do business in China and if you are already there you cannot help but agree with everything he says. Pay close attention, he knows what he is talking about.

    They will go behind your back and try to deal directly with your customer, they will yes you to death and then do whatever they please without any regard for you or your customer. I can offer dozens of examples but the one that most illustrates this is the supplier who sent the advance samples for approval, they were perfect. He then went and made the million piece order to his own liking. It was a Halloween item to be made in Orange and Black, the 1000 piece advance samples were right on the money. When the order came in, it was made in Red and Blue. They told us the factory boss thought Orange and Black was a terrible color combination so he made what he thought was pretty. Hence we had a million red and blue product with ghosts and goblins and all printed on them, in red and blue and the words “Happy Halloween”. THAT is when we transferred half our entire production of all products to India. We still do some business in China but had I read this book twenty years ago I never would have gotten involved in China at all!
    I highly recommend this book, it is all true and frightening so use it well and be aware. Be very aware.

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    • Replies: @The Wobbly Guy
    And because of that, Singaporeans are usually derided by other chinese for being too naive - we do aim for long term advantages and customer relationships as inculcated by our western upbringing, although we also lapse all too frequently into our genetic heritage.

    As the common saying goes, "台湾人无耻,香港人无情,大陆人无耻又无情,新加坡人无知."

    Translated - Taiwanese are shameless, Hong Kongers are merciless, Mainlanders are shameless and merciless, and Singaporeans are ignorant/naive/stupid.
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  19. I learned a lot from this column (sounds like a school book report, haha). I know about modern China, have read lots about the Mao era and some about the Japan/WWII/Civil War era too. However, the history reviewed here may have enlightened me on the Chinese mindset. I’d always though, and still question, whether the extreme discouragement of religion, or I should say, “other religions” by Communism DID still change the “psyche” somewhat.

    The Chinese Taoism, Confucianism, and Buddhism were never, I guess, taken as seriously as Christianity in the West and Islam in the, umm, hellholes. However, it was a part of their culture. Right now, nothing of that is taken seriously, as even the money burned during the tomb-sweeping day is fake. I asked a Chinawoman, “if you believe burning that cash is gonna help your late Mom, why don’t you all burn the real stuff – I’d love to burn me some Chairman Mao.”

    No, there is no belief left, in all of the people I’ve met. Don’t you think 30-odd years of hard-core Communism changed a bit of this, Mr. Derbyshire? I’m just asking – as you are the expert – not being snarky at all, if you can believe that(!)

    Read More
    • Replies: @Duke of Qin
    Belief doesn't matter. Ritual is the foundation of behavior and social order. Confucius pointed this out nearly 3000 years ago. All the sacrifices are pointless and all the proper observances are irrelevant, but they still matter because in performing them you are conducting yourself properly and it impacts on behavior elsewhere. It's how Judaism and Islam work, all the seemingly pointless rituals and taboos that set themselves apart from others are not useless, they are in fact precisely designed to enforce certain behaviors that lead to the propagation of mores Jews and Muslims.
    , @myself
    Maybe we shouldn't be all too quick to say that the Chinese have no beliefs. Say instead that they are searching for their footing in the world, having closed themselves off for centuries. So, indeed, if you are looking for set doctrines and ideas, well, it's way too early for that.

    They opened up in, at the earliest, 1978. In fact, the Reform and Opening did not become national policy until 1982.

    But back to the "no beliefs". During the early days of the Islamic expansion, in the 7th Century AD, Arab traders who had traversed the Silk Road, that there were these teeming masses in the East with no conception of God, and no faith to oppose to the Light and Truth of Islam. Surely, here was a massive opportunity for conversion. When Islam reaches that land, the inhabitants would be theologically and philosophically defenseless - or so thought the Imams of that age.

    In the 1800s, it was Christianity's turn to try their hand at the easy pickings that would be the Chinese. Where others failed, the Truth of Christianity would have universal appeal. Or so thought the missionaries of that later age.

    What they forgot was that the Chinese identity predated both their religions, by thousands of years.
    Communism did not affect the essential Russian character, nor that of the Chinese - it simply wasn't around long enough.
    , @John Derbyshire
    Achmed:

    Deep waters here. I recommend Prof. LaFleur's lectures on the Analects of Confucius. Executive summary: commentator "Duke of Qin" is more or less right.
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  20. @Achmed E. Newman

    As for politics, I’m not convinced liberal democracy is a superior system, or even a lasting one. Even accounting for potential tyrants, the authoritarian state is still better equipped to rapidly and decisively deal with existential threats to the nation, especially internal ones. Equality other than basic legal protections is not desirable at all.
     
    It sounds, from your writing, that you have been here in America for a long time, but apparently not long enough to know much of the history of this country. We are not supposed to be a liberal democracy - a Constitutional Republic was the government formed by our founders and it specifically specified a SMALL GOVERNMENT. The kind of nationally-suicidal stuff going on would not have been let to happen if Americans had some control of the Feral Government over the last 5 decades.

    Equality as equal protection under the law IS the only equality specified in the Constitution. The American Constitutional Republic form of government was the best ever devised and beats all hell out of any authoritative regime, even under a Star-Trek-type "Good Chairman Mao".

    Universal suffrage is the dumbest idea in the history of political thought.
     
    AGREED, and also not part of the founders plan for Federal government, BTW

    ... .even then most Chinese people do not feel unfree, because most people in any society don’t intend on being dissidents.
     
    Sure, the nail that sticks up gets hammered down. Maybe you've got cause and effect backwards, Jason. The Chinese don't want to be dissidents, because authoritarian government will squash them (with a tank). So, the Chinese feel pretty free not to become dissidents, is that the logic?

    AGREED, and also not part of the founders plan for Federal government, BTW

    But its hard to argue that they didn’t suspect it’ll get to this point. They even wrote it about themselves that any line for voting could be seen as arbitrary. I think it was Adams that wrote something like: “If it is limited to white men of great property, why not white men of small property? If limited to white men of property, why not all white men? Why not all men, instead of white men? And so on…”

    The incentives in a democracy ultimately don’t line up not to move toward universal suffrage, because the opposition party always needs to bring in more voters to buttress their ranks. Of course, the founders were opposed to parties and cliques too, but the necessity of it was such that they were effectively creating their own even as they wrote against it.

    Perhaps its different in an European multiparty democracy with no clear opposition, only coalitions. Nonetheless, universal suffrage seems to be the rule there too, so perhaps the only difference is that opposition party is replaced by opposition coalition.

    Read More
    • Agree: Abe
    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    (Sorry for all the very late replies, Daniel and Jason - I ran out of time yesterday.)

    The American founders in NO WAY figured that women were ever going to be voting in elections. This nefarious idea came in to being a century ago. I have not read very much about it, because it digusts me, but I am starting to wonder who was behind this "suffrage" crap.

    You keep mentioning "democracy", Daniel, but that was not the type of government this country was founded as.
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  21. Since China is the subject here, and because they are in the middle of the Chinese New Year over there and here, let’s not forget about the moon cakes*, please, people!

    They’ve got 5,000 years of history, I! GET! THAT! [/Carlson], and our Southern American moon PIES have only been around for a century (congrats!). Still, the Chinese are not known to be be big-time bakers, and those things have a piece of egg inside. What the hell, Chinaman? I, myself am partial to Chocolate moon pies, especially when accompanied by a Chocolate or Strawberry Yoohoo.

    Moon-Pies vs. Moon-Cakes

    * They’re not just for mooncake festival breakfast anymore.

    Read More
    • Replies: @another fred

    I, myself am partial to Chocolate moon pies, especially when accompanied by a Chocolate or Strawberry Yoohoo.
     
    In these parts (Alabama) the proper accompaniment for a Moon Pie was an RC Cola in the old days ('50s and '60s).

    With Mardi Gras just over most of us have had our needs for Moon Pies filled for a year.

    , @TT

    Still, the Chinese are not known to be be big-time bakers, and those things have a piece of egg inside. What the hell, Chinaman? I, myself am partial to Chocolate moon pies, especially when accompanied by a Chocolate or Strawberry Yoohoo.
     
    LOL, which part of planet you come from? it juz prove you have never travel out of your little town and try to talk something you never tasted before, good moon cake. Not those cheap moon pies in Walmart you feasted and start bragging...

    I had tried so many varieties that i lost count, you name it. But they aren't cheap.
    Chocolate, Durians, Bean paste, green tea, ice cream, lotus seed, single egg, double eggs, birdnest, seafood,....with various outer crusts, crispy to tender soft, hot to frozen.

    I don't know how to paste pic(can someone teach me?), you can see for yourself with Google. Get updated, Chinese has thousands year of bakery history, still developing. Juz google mooncake variety, you will find your favourite, more than juz strawberry & chocolate you can ever imagine.

    Now i know why you write foolish thing in peakstupidity site. Pretend to know Chinese culture well to criticize but never been there nor able to afford good Chinese cuisine.

    From China:
    https://www.chinahighlights.com/festivals/top-10-mooncake-flavors.htm

    From Singapore:
    http://www.shape.com.sg/food/20-special-mooncakes-try-year/

    I think HK or Taiwan, Malaysia will have even more varieties?
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  22. gT says:
    @Jason Liu
    ‎✓ Disgruntled expat masking hurt feelings with cultural criticism
    ‎✓ Information drawn from outdated 1920s missionary stereotypes
    ‎✓ Unironic reference to Ralph Townsend
    ‎✓ Taiwan as a stepping stone for hating the mainland
    ‎✓ Someone screwed me in business now I hate China

    The only thing missing from Midler's resume is "ESL teacher"

    Listen, Chinese people are perfectly aware of Chinese society's shortcomings. The "Ugly Chinaman" trope -- deceit, corner-cutting, greed, face-saving, dog-eat-dog mentality that all stem from excessive materialism -- has been described in some form by Chinese commentators since at least the 13th century.

    Chinese people, including me, are often critical of these issues in private, but less so to foreigners. China has always been a harsh, densely populated rat race where being moral puts you at a disadvantage. I'm sorry a lot of foreigners didn't know this going in, but people aren't going to become nicer until there is a substantial period of wealth and higher living standards, like in Taiwan or Singapore. We don't need any more assblasted expats feeling bitter about every single thing in China. People like Midler writing this in 2018 should realize that this is the era when China finally starts transitioning to a nicer place.

    As for politics, I'm not convinced liberal democracy is a superior system, or even a lasting one. Even accounting for potential tyrants, the authoritarian state is still better equipped to rapidly and decisively deal with existential threats to the nation, especially internal ones. Equality other than basic legal protections is not desirable at all. Universal suffrage is the dumbest idea in the history of political thought. Freedom is hardly the most important thing in society, and even then most Chinese people do not feel unfree, because most people in any society don't intend on being dissidents. The major gripe about freedoms in China is not about any particular political topic, but rather the internet blocking of foreign sites that hold entertainment value (Youtube, Instagram, etc).

    I agree that Chinese nationalism can be arrogant and hypersensitive. Angry nationalists should tone it down and ask whether or not hating some other country/group actually benefits China. Most of the hate directed at our neighbors is pointless, counterproductive, just pride for the sake of pride. However, after living in the west, I firmly believe that nationalism is basically a positive thing for humanity, despite its excesses. Tribal feeling and the friendly competition that results is the greatest engine of true progress ever known. Given a choice between the west's self-loathing "open society" and China's current system, I'd pick the nationalist autocracy any day.

    Agreed with everything you are saying, more or less, except for the political scenario. I’ve got a problem with some animals being more equal than others in the Animal Farm sense, too much of the Western equality before the law individualistic anti-authoritarian nature in me, so it has to be different strokes for different folks on the political issue.

    But this business of Chinese “people aren’t going to become nicer until there is a substantial period of wealth and higher living standards”. Is there ever going to be a substantial period of wealth and higher living standards in China?

    I think not. China’s current wealth and higher living standards are due to globalization. Globalization is disappearing because of the problems the global economies are going through, economic protectionism has already kicked in and its only going to get worse. Western countries are dependent on debt for their GDP, the people are maxed out on debt, no more economic growth possible via that route. So the substantial period part of the substantial period of wealth and higher living standards is not possible.

    China’s people are going to remain the same as they are now and have always been.

    I don’t even think that there is enough resources on this planet for a substantial period of wealth and higher living standards for the 1.4 billion people in China to become nice.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Duke of Qin
    Nice guys finish last. Chinese shouldn't become "nicer", they need to get meaner. Atavism is the word of the day and they need to embrace "meanness" to survive in an ever darker world. I've seen the behavior of the so-called "nice" Chinese; deracinated compradors with fertility rates below 1 whose primary desire is overpriced real estate and cargo culting the West and miscegenating themselves into oblivion. In other words, an evolutionary dead end. Ill take Henan peasant over Shanghai cosmopolitan any day of the week and twice on Sundays. One of the good things about the Communist Party is that they have universalized Chinese nationalism to no longer be the exclusive realm of educated elites. Next step is to foster a siege mentality of us against the world and project that "meanness" against outsiders. Race War Now.
    , @Daniel Chieh

    Is there ever going to be a substantial period of wealth and higher living standards in China?
     
    Yes. The advancement of technology provides a lot of opportunities and help deal with scarcity - I think its easy to underestimate the sheer amount of waste that goes on normally. For example, roughly one third of the food produced in the world for human consumption every year — approximately 1.3 billion tonnes — gets lost or wasted. That's just food, but its an essential measure of well-being.

    There are two ways that can be increased: one is to increase the amount of food being generated and another is to improve the treatment of food so that its not actually wasted. China is deploying AI* to do both:
    https://www.theverge.com/2018/2/16/17019446/farming-ai-pig-tracking-china-alibaba


    What's particularly impressive is that AI can ultimately be used to increase the effectiveness of services that would previously have been seen to be only human-capable, such as doctors. They can't replace doctors yet, but one of the major strengths of machine learning systems is that they can notice anomalies, far faster and far more accurately than humans can. Rather than spend twenty minutes looking over an x-ray and worrying if he may have missed something, an AI can rapidly converge on anything that looks unusual and mark it off to the doctor in a minute's time:

    https://www.cnbc.com/2016/10/11/chinese-baidu-unveils-ai-health-chatbot-for-patients-and-doctors.html

    Even globalization itself is the result of technology: from more efficient logistics overall permitting foreign shipments to be affordable. And the cost of software is effectively zilch once created - just the price of electricity, and some human upkeep thanks to the API ecosystem/improvement. Replication is practically free, unlike other resources in the world. The question, really, is if energy is going to be limited.

    And that's dubious, in my opinion. Peak oil has been suggested for decades but we're not seeing it. And even if peak oil ever becomes a thing, China leads in renewables(and that's not even considering nuclear investment).

    https://www.counterpunch.org/2017/07/18/china-now-leads-in-renewables/

    * I tend to dislike the word AI a lot. Its subject to a lot of hype and in my opinion, machine learning systems that provide improved decision-making feedback are not truly artificial intelligence. But it seems to be the best word for it now.

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  23. @Johnny Smoggins
    Another book on the subject that I'd recommend is The Tyranny of History by W.J.F Jenner.

    Jenner was an Australian diplomat who spent a considerable amount of time in China and came away with a pretty accurate view of things like why, for example, the common areas of Chinese apartment buildings are often so dumpy even if the building is inhabited by wealthy people.

    I spent years living among Chinese people in both Taiwan and the mainland and came away with a generally positive impression of them. On the whole, they're energetic, dynamic, friendly and hospitable people. The hyper sensitive nationalism of the mainlanders (As everyone knows, Taiwan is a part of the mainland!) for now, remains problematic however.

    If they grow and mature and mellow out like the Taiwanese, they'll be fine.

    God I hope not. The Taiwanese are a bunch of boring deracinate cucks who are happy to follow the West into oblivion if it means some additional status points for themselves. The Mainlanders need double down on the nationalism. Not the shitty “big state” nationalism of the Communist Party though (analogous to Putin’s version of Russian Nationalism or even the dominant strain of American nationalism), rather the natural tribal racial nationalism of the Han people. Volkish race nationalism good; Imperialist boilerplate masquerading as nationalism, bad.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Johnny Smoggins
    Good. I think you have the right attitude and I wish you and your nation much success.

    A couple pieces of advice from the decaying West;

    If China does decide to take up democracy (and really you shouldn't, a benign nationalist dictatorship is best) for the love of God, don't let women vote. And DO NOT let Jews in. A couple of diplomats from Israel and nothing more.
    , @ve1
    mainland politicians are also generally followers of the west, theyre just not as bad as the twnese. nationalism has actually hurt china. the reason why china was so strong during the kultural revalution was because they practiced internationalism
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  24. @Achmed E. Newman
    I learned a lot from this column (sounds like a school book report, haha). I know about modern China, have read lots about the Mao era and some about the Japan/WWII/Civil War era too. However, the history reviewed here may have enlightened me on the Chinese mindset. I'd always though, and still question, whether the extreme discouragement of religion, or I should say, "other religions" by Communism DID still change the "psyche" somewhat.

    The Chinese Taoism, Confucianism, and Buddhism were never, I guess, taken as seriously as Christianity in the West and Islam in the, umm, hellholes. However, it was a part of their culture. Right now, nothing of that is taken seriously, as even the money burned during the tomb-sweeping day is fake. I asked a Chinawoman, "if you believe burning that cash is gonna help your late Mom, why don't you all burn the real stuff - I'd love to burn me some Chairman Mao."

    No, there is no belief left, in all of the people I've met. Don't you think 30-odd years of hard-core Communism changed a bit of this, Mr. Derbyshire? I'm just asking - as you are the expert - not being snarky at all, if you can believe that(!)

    Belief doesn’t matter. Ritual is the foundation of behavior and social order. Confucius pointed this out nearly 3000 years ago. All the sacrifices are pointless and all the proper observances are irrelevant, but they still matter because in performing them you are conducting yourself properly and it impacts on behavior elsewhere. It’s how Judaism and Islam work, all the seemingly pointless rituals and taboos that set themselves apart from others are not useless, they are in fact precisely designed to enforce certain behaviors that lead to the propagation of mores Jews and Muslims.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    People can run through all the rituals they want, but that doesn't make them better people. Go to a strip club with a Moslem guy and see how well those rituals work, Duke.

    The lack of morals in the current Chinese culture (in general, that is) is not going to change due to following of the proper Tomb-sweeping rituals, the eating of Moon Pies Cakes, and riding on Dragon Boats. My example of burning the fake money is appropriate here. They can go through the rituals, but nobody has any belief that it means anything.

    If anything, I think the rituals in China will just get more commericalized, as Christmas is. The really ironic thing is this: After the dark years of Communism abating in China, while the insidious version of Communism is increasing in America, you will very well may see more of Santa Clause and Christmas trees on the streets in Shanghai than in freakin New York City. Yet, they don't really believe a word of it in Shanghai - maybe same in New York City(?)
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  25. @gT
    Agreed with everything you are saying, more or less, except for the political scenario. I've got a problem with some animals being more equal than others in the Animal Farm sense, too much of the Western equality before the law individualistic anti-authoritarian nature in me, so it has to be different strokes for different folks on the political issue.

    But this business of Chinese "people aren’t going to become nicer until there is a substantial period of wealth and higher living standards". Is there ever going to be a substantial period of wealth and higher living standards in China?

    I think not. China's current wealth and higher living standards are due to globalization. Globalization is disappearing because of the problems the global economies are going through, economic protectionism has already kicked in and its only going to get worse. Western countries are dependent on debt for their GDP, the people are maxed out on debt, no more economic growth possible via that route. So the substantial period part of the substantial period of wealth and higher living standards is not possible.

    China's people are going to remain the same as they are now and have always been.

    I don't even think that there is enough resources on this planet for a substantial period of wealth and higher living standards for the 1.4 billion people in China to become nice.

    Nice guys finish last. Chinese shouldn’t become “nicer”, they need to get meaner. Atavism is the word of the day and they need to embrace “meanness” to survive in an ever darker world. I’ve seen the behavior of the so-called “nice” Chinese; deracinated compradors with fertility rates below 1 whose primary desire is overpriced real estate and cargo culting the West and miscegenating themselves into oblivion. In other words, an evolutionary dead end. Ill take Henan peasant over Shanghai cosmopolitan any day of the week and twice on Sundays. One of the good things about the Communist Party is that they have universalized Chinese nationalism to no longer be the exclusive realm of educated elites. Next step is to foster a siege mentality of us against the world and project that “meanness” against outsiders. Race War Now.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    You know you have problems, right?
    , @Jason Liu
    C'mon man, that's cartoonish. We don't live in the Warring States era.

    Better to slowly shift the global culture away from western liberal norms into something more suited to nationalism, which would better safeguard Chinese (and other) identities over the long run.
    , @Hker
    The war to end all war will come but we need to bid our time. There is a need to unite all East Asians ( Koreans, jap and Chinese diaspora ) and bring them into China's orbit as was the case during the Tang and Song Dynasty, this can only be achieved through economic, technological or cultural superiority and integration where these countries will submit to China and have no objections to been vassal states. South east Asia needs to be taken for their resources ( as jap were doing WWII> and the low IQ breeds subjugated. This process might take another 50-100 years but it needs to happen before the Asia is ready to take on the West for the final showdown. It will begin in Australia where we will clean up all the white trash there. But I think the west would have imploded by then and they will all be speaking Chinese anyway...
    , @Alden
    Do you live in China? Do you know anyone in the people’s congress, the state council, high ranking military or members of the central committee of the communist party?

    Would a newspaper or magazine print your plans for China? You can start a website. Why would China want to go to war with any country? You are now and throughout history supreme in Asia. India and the west are too far away to harm China. I suppose China could invade Russia but why?????

    China has a nice solid chunk of territory. You have no need to expand. You make practically everything and the world is thrilled to buy it. China is the workshop of the world.

    Why would China want to start a war and with whom?
    , @Bill P
    In my experience, the "Henan peasant" (Hebei actually -- I never spent time in Henan) was a lot nicer than the cutthroat real estate shark. Chinese peasants are some of the best people I've ever known. Generous, friendly, hospitable, humble, diligent, etc.

    In a sense I agree with the early Chinese communists in that China's system was based on the exploitation of these people and gave them very little in return. However, despite decades of communism, things don't seem to have changed, and that certainly isn't the fault of Westerners.

    China's biggest problem is philosophical. To the Chinese, this world and the ideal world are sort of parallel universes that aren't directly connected to each other. To Westerners, what we do in this world is directly connected to an ideal outcome.
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  26. @gT
    Agreed with everything you are saying, more or less, except for the political scenario. I've got a problem with some animals being more equal than others in the Animal Farm sense, too much of the Western equality before the law individualistic anti-authoritarian nature in me, so it has to be different strokes for different folks on the political issue.

    But this business of Chinese "people aren’t going to become nicer until there is a substantial period of wealth and higher living standards". Is there ever going to be a substantial period of wealth and higher living standards in China?

    I think not. China's current wealth and higher living standards are due to globalization. Globalization is disappearing because of the problems the global economies are going through, economic protectionism has already kicked in and its only going to get worse. Western countries are dependent on debt for their GDP, the people are maxed out on debt, no more economic growth possible via that route. So the substantial period part of the substantial period of wealth and higher living standards is not possible.

    China's people are going to remain the same as they are now and have always been.

    I don't even think that there is enough resources on this planet for a substantial period of wealth and higher living standards for the 1.4 billion people in China to become nice.

    Is there ever going to be a substantial period of wealth and higher living standards in China?

    Yes. The advancement of technology provides a lot of opportunities and help deal with scarcity – I think its easy to underestimate the sheer amount of waste that goes on normally. For example, roughly one third of the food produced in the world for human consumption every year — approximately 1.3 billion tonnes — gets lost or wasted. That’s just food, but its an essential measure of well-being.

    There are two ways that can be increased: one is to increase the amount of food being generated and another is to improve the treatment of food so that its not actually wasted. China is deploying AI* to do both:

    https://www.theverge.com/2018/2/16/17019446/farming-ai-pig-tracking-china-alibaba

    What’s particularly impressive is that AI can ultimately be used to increase the effectiveness of services that would previously have been seen to be only human-capable, such as doctors. They can’t replace doctors yet, but one of the major strengths of machine learning systems is that they can notice anomalies, far faster and far more accurately than humans can. Rather than spend twenty minutes looking over an x-ray and worrying if he may have missed something, an AI can rapidly converge on anything that looks unusual and mark it off to the doctor in a minute’s time:

    https://www.cnbc.com/2016/10/11/chinese-baidu-unveils-ai-health-chatbot-for-patients-and-doctors.html

    Even globalization itself is the result of technology: from more efficient logistics overall permitting foreign shipments to be affordable. And the cost of software is effectively zilch once created – just the price of electricity, and some human upkeep thanks to the API ecosystem/improvement. Replication is practically free, unlike other resources in the world. The question, really, is if energy is going to be limited.

    And that’s dubious, in my opinion. Peak oil has been suggested for decades but we’re not seeing it. And even if peak oil ever becomes a thing, China leads in renewables(and that’s not even considering nuclear investment).

    https://www.counterpunch.org/2017/07/18/china-now-leads-in-renewables/

    * I tend to dislike the word AI a lot. Its subject to a lot of hype and in my opinion, machine learning systems that provide improved decision-making feedback are not truly artificial intelligence. But it seems to be the best word for it now.

    Read More
    • Replies: @gT
    I've heard that necessity is the mother of every invention but there is no way I can be that optimistic about technology. Its going to have to be different strokes for different folks on this matter also :-)
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  27. @Duke of Qin
    Nice guys finish last. Chinese shouldn't become "nicer", they need to get meaner. Atavism is the word of the day and they need to embrace "meanness" to survive in an ever darker world. I've seen the behavior of the so-called "nice" Chinese; deracinated compradors with fertility rates below 1 whose primary desire is overpriced real estate and cargo culting the West and miscegenating themselves into oblivion. In other words, an evolutionary dead end. Ill take Henan peasant over Shanghai cosmopolitan any day of the week and twice on Sundays. One of the good things about the Communist Party is that they have universalized Chinese nationalism to no longer be the exclusive realm of educated elites. Next step is to foster a siege mentality of us against the world and project that "meanness" against outsiders. Race War Now.

    You know you have problems, right?

    Read More
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  28. I was screwed professionally by a Chinese guy. Yet, I have worked with other Chinese who are perfectly admirable. I am rational enough not to hate the whole society over the actions of one corrupt POS individual. Having said that, I will say that the biggest problem the Chinese face as a whole is their culture of corruption. Corruption is seriously their number one problem. All of their other problems are insignificant in comparison and would be easily overcome absent corruption.

    Duke ofQin: Good luck with that.

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    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    Corruption is seriously their number one problem. All of their other problems are insignificant in comparison and would be easily overcome absent corruption.
     
    I concur completely. I think that the Communist party is aware of this as well. Corruption is an existential issue, one that ultimately far surpasses all the many other issues that the country has to deal with.
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  29. Jason Liu says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    As for politics, I’m not convinced liberal democracy is a superior system, or even a lasting one. Even accounting for potential tyrants, the authoritarian state is still better equipped to rapidly and decisively deal with existential threats to the nation, especially internal ones. Equality other than basic legal protections is not desirable at all.
     
    It sounds, from your writing, that you have been here in America for a long time, but apparently not long enough to know much of the history of this country. We are not supposed to be a liberal democracy - a Constitutional Republic was the government formed by our founders and it specifically specified a SMALL GOVERNMENT. The kind of nationally-suicidal stuff going on would not have been let to happen if Americans had some control of the Feral Government over the last 5 decades.

    Equality as equal protection under the law IS the only equality specified in the Constitution. The American Constitutional Republic form of government was the best ever devised and beats all hell out of any authoritative regime, even under a Star-Trek-type "Good Chairman Mao".

    Universal suffrage is the dumbest idea in the history of political thought.
     
    AGREED, and also not part of the founders plan for Federal government, BTW

    ... .even then most Chinese people do not feel unfree, because most people in any society don’t intend on being dissidents.
     
    Sure, the nail that sticks up gets hammered down. Maybe you've got cause and effect backwards, Jason. The Chinese don't want to be dissidents, because authoritarian government will squash them (with a tank). So, the Chinese feel pretty free not to become dissidents, is that the logic?

    I know how America was founded, but fact is today it practices and preaches liberal democracy with universal suffrage, and its egalitarian culture goes far beyond what’s stated in the constitution. It also seems to expect that every other country on Earth should do the same, or be labelled evil.

    Government tends to grow over time until everything burns down in a revolution or something similar. I don’t foresee a return to small government republicanism anytime soon.

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    • Agree: Alden
    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman

    I don’t foresee a return to small government republicanism anytime soon.
     
    No doubt, Jason. I replied because I read lots of people who make comparisons to present day America without ever mentioning, or maybe knowing, what a good country is like. Some of us know the right way. I sure as hell don't care to read or hear any Chinese people comparing their country to modern-day America when they know zero history (usually not much of China's either).

    That's not at all directed at you, Jason, just sayin'...
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  30. Jason Liu says:
    @Duke of Qin
    Nice guys finish last. Chinese shouldn't become "nicer", they need to get meaner. Atavism is the word of the day and they need to embrace "meanness" to survive in an ever darker world. I've seen the behavior of the so-called "nice" Chinese; deracinated compradors with fertility rates below 1 whose primary desire is overpriced real estate and cargo culting the West and miscegenating themselves into oblivion. In other words, an evolutionary dead end. Ill take Henan peasant over Shanghai cosmopolitan any day of the week and twice on Sundays. One of the good things about the Communist Party is that they have universalized Chinese nationalism to no longer be the exclusive realm of educated elites. Next step is to foster a siege mentality of us against the world and project that "meanness" against outsiders. Race War Now.

    C’mon man, that’s cartoonish. We don’t live in the Warring States era.

    Better to slowly shift the global culture away from western liberal norms into something more suited to nationalism, which would better safeguard Chinese (and other) identities over the long run.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Duke of Qin
    The warring states period was by comparison quite pacific and orderly. All of the states were the ducal heirs of the kingdom of Zhou and shared an overarching monoculture. Like the city states of ancient Greece or the German principalities of medieval Europe, they were politically fragmented but shared the same values and customs.

    The modern world is on the other hand a wild dangerous place, filled with wildly different peoples and sundry barbarians with grossly different values. I would be more positive if I thought the Chinese race were stronger, but we aren't. Unlike the undomesticated negro with his raw strength who overawes all peoples with his presence, the cunning Jew who is able to subvert others to his cause, the wild eyed Mohammedan with his unrelenting faith, or the Hindu who is a combination of the (worst) traits of Jew and Mussalman, or even the nihilistic hypocritical European driven by the desire to see his own race destroyed and everyone else along with it, the Chinese are socially a weak people. We are meek, passive, lacking in assabiyah, and just all around too domesticated to survive in a war of all against all that modern "liberal" societies seek to create. Compared to the warring states of old where defeat meant you paid your taxes to one Duke as opposed to another, defeat now means your racial annihilation and debasement. Our one redeeming feature is our state, a government ruled at the top by flinty eyed bastards thoroughly opposed to a liberal world order. That they can and do use the state to crushing effect to protect our race against the outside is a "feature" not bug that Western liberals seek to undermine at every opportunity.

    This is where I heartily disagree, the best way to safeguard the Chinese now, as then, is heavily armed isolationism. Triple the defense budget, more nukes, ships, more jets and zero emigration or immigration. Basically buy our shit, stay out, and leave us the hell alone, a historically relevant policy worth emulating.

    , @Alden
    Why can’t China be China and let the culture of the West alone? I doubt you realize how strong insane liberal culture in the West is.
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  31. myself says:
    @Peter Akuleyev
    The "right" has also been a major contributor to demographic change, and has often been its main cheerleader. It wasn't the left that imported slaves, insisted that we let millions of cheap workers flood the country and the 19th century, and once again opened the door to cheap labor in the 1960s. In both America and Europe, Capital has always used immigrants as a weapon to undermine trade unions and the power domestic laborers have. A rapidly growing economy will always be vulnerable to demographic change as the elite chases cheap labor, even Rome suffered from that.

    Asia has avoided the problem thus far simply by having so many poor people willing to work at low wages. This is beginning to catch up with them. Japan has responded by investing heavily in robotics and consciously deciding to shrink its economy long term, we will see if Korea and China can do the same. My guess is that China, with its shortage of women, pressure for growth and less centralized control, is going to have a harder time keeping the gates closed.

    Peter Akuleyev says:
    February 19, 2018 at 11:00 am GMT • 200 Words

    My guess is that China, with its shortage of women, pressure for growth and less centralized control, is going to have a harder time keeping the gates closed.
    ___________________________________________________________________________________

    Of the 3 nations you mentioned (China, Korea, Japan), China is actually by far the most ruthless in enforcing central control. I honestly would not at all be surprised if they deploy the army to remove even defiant provincial governors, if it came to that.

    For example, the utter and complete INSANITY occurring now in America, the self-proclaimed Sanctuary Cities for illegals, simply would not be conceivable in China.

    Sanctuary cities are cities essentially proclaiming themselves exempt and above federal law. Turn it around, and the Mainstream Media wouldn’t like it. What if some cities made chattel slavery LEGAL in their jurisdiction? The media would go nuts. But since the defiant cities favor illegals, it’s all good, huh?

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  32. njguy73 says:

    A question for John Derbyshire, or anyone who would know:

    The U.S. apologized for slavery. Britain apologized to Kenya, Belgium apologized to the Congo. Germany took responsibility for the Holocaust, Japan apologized for Nanking.

    Has China ever done anything warranting an apology? And if so, did one come forth?

    If not, is the world ready for a superpower with no sense of responsibility?

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    • Replies: @Weaver1
    The US obsesses over slavery as a political tool against white Americans. If you notice, the US imports many immigrants and guest workers. We've embraced a strategy of "invade-the-world; invite-the-world", which results in the importation of angry refugees. We export our investment capital, expand our debt, etc. The US doesn't serve the interests of US citizens.

    A better example might be how the US bends over backwards to help blacks, then blames whites when blacks fail to excel. Meanwhile, Asians outperform most everyone... Asian supremacist conspiracy perhaps? (That's a joke.) By blaming whites, blacks are encouraged to be angry at whites, which divides society, creates disharmony.

    Some argue this is a "divide and conquer" strategy by America's elite.

    Similarly, low IQ whites defend the exceedingly wealthy, thinking they're mutually at risk from the angry blacks (among others on the "Left"). In truth, workers in general share many common political interests. So, the "divide-and-conquer" strategy appears to work very well on the population in general, or has in the past anyway.

    -

    In short, a superpower that "apologises" is not necessarily a good thing. It could be good. Every society sins of course.

    I certainly acknowledge slavery was wrong, but specific sins are focused upon and emphasised for political reasons. Man is fallen. Societies don't usually act on morality but on power. There are some mostly good people, but most things occur because of power, greed, etc. And it's much easier for one to play at being "good" when weak (and lacking temptation). Also, it's often the ambitious who advance, not the good. I'm not suggesting a person should then become "evil"; I'm just highlighting how man is fallen.

    China has many sins. Tibet is a great example. China conquered Tibet, largely destroyed or reduced most of an ethnicity. I don't wish it to "apologise", but it should strive to protect Tibetan heritage, which it might well be doing. And of course, I'm no expert on the matter; so who am I to judge China?

    , @denk

    If not, is the world ready for a superpower with no sense of responsibility?
     
    Do the Chinese a favor kid, they loathes this label of 'superpower', to them its nothing but a target painted on their back, a red flag to the murkkan bull !

    What might your idea of a 'responsible' superpower be,
    the one where 95% of the populace support bombing a country called...
    Agrabah ??

    https://johnmenadue.com/john-menadue-we-are-in-denial-about-the-risks-in-our-relationship-with-the-united-states-part-1-of-2/

    buahahahahah
    , @John Derbyshire
    Paul Midler discusses this in his excellent book. Will (for example) China Apologize for the hundreds of foreigners cruelly massacred in the Boxer rebellion? Don't hold your breath.
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  33. @Jason Liu
    C'mon man, that's cartoonish. We don't live in the Warring States era.

    Better to slowly shift the global culture away from western liberal norms into something more suited to nationalism, which would better safeguard Chinese (and other) identities over the long run.

    The warring states period was by comparison quite pacific and orderly. All of the states were the ducal heirs of the kingdom of Zhou and shared an overarching monoculture. Like the city states of ancient Greece or the German principalities of medieval Europe, they were politically fragmented but shared the same values and customs.

    The modern world is on the other hand a wild dangerous place, filled with wildly different peoples and sundry barbarians with grossly different values. I would be more positive if I thought the Chinese race were stronger, but we aren’t. Unlike the undomesticated negro with his raw strength who overawes all peoples with his presence, the cunning Jew who is able to subvert others to his cause, the wild eyed Mohammedan with his unrelenting faith, or the Hindu who is a combination of the (worst) traits of Jew and Mussalman, or even the nihilistic hypocritical European driven by the desire to see his own race destroyed and everyone else along with it, the Chinese are socially a weak people. We are meek, passive, lacking in assabiyah, and just all around too domesticated to survive in a war of all against all that modern “liberal” societies seek to create. Compared to the warring states of old where defeat meant you paid your taxes to one Duke as opposed to another, defeat now means your racial annihilation and debasement. Our one redeeming feature is our state, a government ruled at the top by flinty eyed bastards thoroughly opposed to a liberal world order. That they can and do use the state to crushing effect to protect our race against the outside is a “feature” not bug that Western liberals seek to undermine at every opportunity.

    This is where I heartily disagree, the best way to safeguard the Chinese now, as then, is heavily armed isolationism. Triple the defense budget, more nukes, ships, more jets and zero emigration or immigration. Basically buy our shit, stay out, and leave us the hell alone, a historically relevant policy worth emulating.

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    • Replies: @gT
    How can you have isolationism and have other people buy your 'stuff'? That is not isolationism, that is still globalization.
    , @Daniel Chieh

    The modern world is on the other hand a wild dangerous place, filled with wildly different peoples and sundry barbarians with grossly different values. I would be more positive if I thought the Chinese race were stronger, but we aren’t....This is where I heartily disagree, the best way to safeguard the Chinese now, as then, is heavily armed isolationism. Triple the defense budget, more nukes, ships, more jets and zero emigration or immigration. Basically buy our shit, stay out, and leave us the hell alone, a historically relevant policy worth emulating.
     
    Oh and that worked out SO well last time.

    If we cannot survive in competition, then we do not deserve to survive.
    , @Weaver1
    Hi, I wanted to post this quote by Machiavelli:

    "Either we have to deal with a
    republic eager like Rome to extend its power, or with one content merely to maintain
    itself; in the former case it
    is necessary to do in all things as Rome did; in the latter,
    for the reasons and in the manner to be shown in the following Chapter, we may
    imitate Venice and Sparta."

    However, in the next chapter he write: "But returning to the point first raised, I believe it
    necessary for us to follow the
    method of the Romans and not that of the other republics, for I know of no middle
    way. "

    Citation: Chapters 5 & 6 from Discourses.

    I generally think as you do, that preserving one's people is best. But mere preservation can lead to decay.

    Also, the book "Antifragility" caught my eye recently, basically arguing that a system should be designed so as to benefit from some difficulty, rather than to be weakened by it - similar to how muscles grow stronger from use.

    I'm not arguing against you, rather I'm just posting some comments you'll find interesting. A nation-state built to endure, especially one that won't commit suicide, is my dream.

    I imagine "isolation" could of course be taken overfar. Nothing in excess. But more-isolation certainly seems better to me. So much of American globalism is wasteful, and interaction with foreigners tends to bring unrealised costs.

    GK Chesterton recommended travel among polities to encourage fellowship and understanding. He also wished to preserve. His "Patriotic Idea" is focused on preserving Europe, especially the British Isles, but applies generally as a sort of ideology of piety and preservation. He favoured "Little England".

    , @dfordoom

    This is where I heartily disagree, the best way to safeguard the Chinese now, as then, is heavily armed isolationism. Triple the defense budget, more nukes, ships, more jets and zero emigration or immigration. Basically buy our shit, stay out, and leave us the hell alone, a historically relevant policy worth emulating.
     
    Sounds sensible to me. If every country took such a position we'd have a much better world. There's a great deal to be said for nations minding their own business.

    That's why I think Australia made a huge mistake in not developing its own nuclear deterrent, back in the days when we were still an industrialised nation. If other nations don't want to mind their own business nukes are the only viable way of persuading them to do so.

    China is certainly going to need a much stronger military. The U.S. will not tolerate the existence of any alternative worldview or political system. The only way to persuade the U.S. to do so is to make sure they know what the consequences of interference will be.
    , @anonymous

    the wild eyed Mohammedan with his unrelenting faith
     
    Ha! For slit-eyed godless-savages, they with some real batshit crazy spiritualities, with no real understanding of their cursed existence here, except the unrelenting pursuit of money... the idea of a strong "unrelenting faith" in an unseen infinite Creator should be quite incomprehensible.

    If our "unrelenting" conviction in His singular existence seems batshit crazy to the likes of you, then can you convince yourself that you too were never created, and simply do not exist? Given the various oriental delusions, I am sure that will not be too hard.

    So much for the putative "high IQ" east asian minds. Hint: if one thinks burning fake currency has any spiritual value, then mush is what said east asian "high IQ" idiot has up there.

    , @Anonymous
    I'm a Hindu and I agree with you. I wish our leaders would ditch the West and ally with China, which has better human capital and much better values than the West. And they don't seek to export their ideologies to their vassal states.

    India is too fragmented and incompetent to ever assume any world-leadership roles. Our best best would be to ally with some responsible superpower and lie low until the Liberalism/Enlightenment forest fire has burnt itself out.
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  34. myself says:
    @Achmed E. Newman
    I learned a lot from this column (sounds like a school book report, haha). I know about modern China, have read lots about the Mao era and some about the Japan/WWII/Civil War era too. However, the history reviewed here may have enlightened me on the Chinese mindset. I'd always though, and still question, whether the extreme discouragement of religion, or I should say, "other religions" by Communism DID still change the "psyche" somewhat.

    The Chinese Taoism, Confucianism, and Buddhism were never, I guess, taken as seriously as Christianity in the West and Islam in the, umm, hellholes. However, it was a part of their culture. Right now, nothing of that is taken seriously, as even the money burned during the tomb-sweeping day is fake. I asked a Chinawoman, "if you believe burning that cash is gonna help your late Mom, why don't you all burn the real stuff - I'd love to burn me some Chairman Mao."

    No, there is no belief left, in all of the people I've met. Don't you think 30-odd years of hard-core Communism changed a bit of this, Mr. Derbyshire? I'm just asking - as you are the expert - not being snarky at all, if you can believe that(!)

    Maybe we shouldn’t be all too quick to say that the Chinese have no beliefs. Say instead that they are searching for their footing in the world, having closed themselves off for centuries. So, indeed, if you are looking for set doctrines and ideas, well, it’s way too early for that.

    They opened up in, at the earliest, 1978. In fact, the Reform and Opening did not become national policy until 1982.

    But back to the “no beliefs”. During the early days of the Islamic expansion, in the 7th Century AD, Arab traders who had traversed the Silk Road, that there were these teeming masses in the East with no conception of God, and no faith to oppose to the Light and Truth of Islam. Surely, here was a massive opportunity for conversion. When Islam reaches that land, the inhabitants would be theologically and philosophically defenseless – or so thought the Imams of that age.

    In the 1800s, it was Christianity’s turn to try their hand at the easy pickings that would be the Chinese. Where others failed, the Truth of Christianity would have universal appeal. Or so thought the missionaries of that later age.

    What they forgot was that the Chinese identity predated both their religions, by thousands of years.
    Communism did not affect the essential Russian character, nor that of the Chinese – it simply wasn’t around long enough.

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    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    It could tell of a soulless, small-hearted people only focused on the material world, too.
    , @Achmed E. Newman
    Thanks for the cogent reply, "yourself". Your point seems to be that the Chinese character of "no beliefs" was resistant to Islamic attempts at conversion and later Christian ones. I think athism can be pretty resistant to any attempts at conversion, especially if, like the Chinese, the society is, or fancies itself, a better, more proseperous one than the one sending the evangelicals.

    Plenty of other countries have been converted forcibly (Islam is big on that, as we all know). That requires just more firepower, and can work in the long run, as once 2 or 3 generations have grown up in it, they know nothing else. Is there some essential character that will shine through even after one grows up in a Moslem world? I don't know.

    I wrote this about Russia and this about China on the long-term effects of Communism, but it's just pure speculation, rather than the erudite view of historical readings of Mr. Derbyshire.
    , @Anon 2
    So does a typical university-educated resident of say, Shanghai, have
    any metaphysical beliefs? In a Higher Power? An afterlife? Or is it
    mostly straight Marxist dialectical materialism?
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  35. @Jason Liu
    ‎✓ Disgruntled expat masking hurt feelings with cultural criticism
    ‎✓ Information drawn from outdated 1920s missionary stereotypes
    ‎✓ Unironic reference to Ralph Townsend
    ‎✓ Taiwan as a stepping stone for hating the mainland
    ‎✓ Someone screwed me in business now I hate China

    The only thing missing from Midler's resume is "ESL teacher"

    Listen, Chinese people are perfectly aware of Chinese society's shortcomings. The "Ugly Chinaman" trope -- deceit, corner-cutting, greed, face-saving, dog-eat-dog mentality that all stem from excessive materialism -- has been described in some form by Chinese commentators since at least the 13th century.

    Chinese people, including me, are often critical of these issues in private, but less so to foreigners. China has always been a harsh, densely populated rat race where being moral puts you at a disadvantage. I'm sorry a lot of foreigners didn't know this going in, but people aren't going to become nicer until there is a substantial period of wealth and higher living standards, like in Taiwan or Singapore. We don't need any more assblasted expats feeling bitter about every single thing in China. People like Midler writing this in 2018 should realize that this is the era when China finally starts transitioning to a nicer place.

    As for politics, I'm not convinced liberal democracy is a superior system, or even a lasting one. Even accounting for potential tyrants, the authoritarian state is still better equipped to rapidly and decisively deal with existential threats to the nation, especially internal ones. Equality other than basic legal protections is not desirable at all. Universal suffrage is the dumbest idea in the history of political thought. Freedom is hardly the most important thing in society, and even then most Chinese people do not feel unfree, because most people in any society don't intend on being dissidents. The major gripe about freedoms in China is not about any particular political topic, but rather the internet blocking of foreign sites that hold entertainment value (Youtube, Instagram, etc).

    I agree that Chinese nationalism can be arrogant and hypersensitive. Angry nationalists should tone it down and ask whether or not hating some other country/group actually benefits China. Most of the hate directed at our neighbors is pointless, counterproductive, just pride for the sake of pride. However, after living in the west, I firmly believe that nationalism is basically a positive thing for humanity, despite its excesses. Tribal feeling and the friendly competition that results is the greatest engine of true progress ever known. Given a choice between the west's self-loathing "open society" and China's current system, I'd pick the nationalist autocracy any day.

    I don’t know if it was that bad – which isn’t to defend it – Derbyshire in the post himself takes steps to qualify its shortcomings at the outset.

    Here’s how I read it: China isn’t perfect – indeed, China has real problems and maybe more salient – real shortcomings that will be difficult to overcome and of which we should practice some skepticism that they even will be overcome.

    That’s purely my POV, I could have been reading too much into it, however, the POV comes from here: I do in fact have a sense of China as a real place, and Chinese as real people, and like all real places and real people there are certain intractable problems in China that are profoundly self-limiting to Chinese collective advancement.

    Before getting to why that’s important bear this in mind: the exact same thing can be said of the US. On another thread nearby a commenter notes the contrast between Mormon culture and southern culture – these reflect self-limiting features in American culture and politics that seem intractable and resistant to efforts to overcome. Add to that: our identity politics, short-term symbolism over long-term substance. America: she got problems.

    But so often we get the “rising China” scare article and all manner of mischief is promoted on the basis that we are supposed to fear an inexorably rising China. Articles like this can be a welcome antidote to that. Americans commit all manner of ideological, political, cultural and geo-political mistakes with their superhumanizing of Chinese (i.e.: Kissinger, “the Chinese are smarter than us” … cue a Unz Review Peanut Gallery HBD fan to sneer with some laconic wit via some IQ remark (ehem, cough, cough – PISA in China is only in Shanghai, think … think about that, study up on the background, then think ) )

    Everyone does China better to neither denigrate Chinese, nor superhumanize them.

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    • Replies: @Snowman
    The fact is, the average IQ of Chinese people is 105, while the average IQ of Americans is 98. Combined with the fact that the size of China's population is 4 times that of America, that means the size of the smart fraction (population with IQ above 120) of China is more than 5 or 6 times greater than America's. So compared to America, China is indeed a country of "superhuman" potential. No "superhumanizing" has taken place.

    And people are oblivious (or pretend to be oblivious) of the fact that prior to the 17th century, China had been the world's most advanced civilization for two or three millenias straight. The living stardard of imperial China had been generally higher than that of Europe of the same period. This is a well documented fact.

    In fact, in my opinion the MSM of America is still underestimating modern China's potential, not overestimating.

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  36. nickels says:

    Post, residual, Christian folk write about why China does not put forth good Christian values.

    Well, where do we start?

    Paganism isn’t that fun when you wake up in the morning.

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  37. @Achmed E. Newman
    Since China is the subject here, and because they are in the middle of the Chinese New Year over there and here, let's not forget about the moon cakes*, please, people!

    They've got 5,000 years of history, I! GET! THAT! [/Carlson], and our Southern American moon PIES have only been around for a century (congrats!). Still, the Chinese are not known to be be big-time bakers, and those things have a piece of egg inside. What the hell, Chinaman? I, myself am partial to Chocolate moon pies, especially when accompanied by a Chocolate or Strawberry Yoohoo.

    Moon-Pies vs. Moon-Cakes


    * They're not just for mooncake festival breakfast anymore.

    I, myself am partial to Chocolate moon pies, especially when accompanied by a Chocolate or Strawberry Yoohoo.

    In these parts (Alabama) the proper accompaniment for a Moon Pie was an RC Cola in the old days (’50s and ’60s).

    With Mardi Gras just over most of us have had our needs for Moon Pies filled for a year.

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    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    How 'bout a Cheer Wine instead, Fred?

    No, I can't wait for next Mardi Gras myself - Circle K is beckoning.
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  38. @Jason Liu
    I know how America was founded, but fact is today it practices and preaches liberal democracy with universal suffrage, and its egalitarian culture goes far beyond what's stated in the constitution. It also seems to expect that every other country on Earth should do the same, or be labelled evil.

    Government tends to grow over time until everything burns down in a revolution or something similar. I don't foresee a return to small government republicanism anytime soon.

    I don’t foresee a return to small government republicanism anytime soon.

    No doubt, Jason. I replied because I read lots of people who make comparisons to present day America without ever mentioning, or maybe knowing, what a good country is like. Some of us know the right way. I sure as hell don’t care to read or hear any Chinese people comparing their country to modern-day America when they know zero history (usually not much of China’s either).

    That’s not at all directed at you, Jason, just sayin’…

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  39. gT says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    Is there ever going to be a substantial period of wealth and higher living standards in China?
     
    Yes. The advancement of technology provides a lot of opportunities and help deal with scarcity - I think its easy to underestimate the sheer amount of waste that goes on normally. For example, roughly one third of the food produced in the world for human consumption every year — approximately 1.3 billion tonnes — gets lost or wasted. That's just food, but its an essential measure of well-being.

    There are two ways that can be increased: one is to increase the amount of food being generated and another is to improve the treatment of food so that its not actually wasted. China is deploying AI* to do both:
    https://www.theverge.com/2018/2/16/17019446/farming-ai-pig-tracking-china-alibaba


    What's particularly impressive is that AI can ultimately be used to increase the effectiveness of services that would previously have been seen to be only human-capable, such as doctors. They can't replace doctors yet, but one of the major strengths of machine learning systems is that they can notice anomalies, far faster and far more accurately than humans can. Rather than spend twenty minutes looking over an x-ray and worrying if he may have missed something, an AI can rapidly converge on anything that looks unusual and mark it off to the doctor in a minute's time:

    https://www.cnbc.com/2016/10/11/chinese-baidu-unveils-ai-health-chatbot-for-patients-and-doctors.html

    Even globalization itself is the result of technology: from more efficient logistics overall permitting foreign shipments to be affordable. And the cost of software is effectively zilch once created - just the price of electricity, and some human upkeep thanks to the API ecosystem/improvement. Replication is practically free, unlike other resources in the world. The question, really, is if energy is going to be limited.

    And that's dubious, in my opinion. Peak oil has been suggested for decades but we're not seeing it. And even if peak oil ever becomes a thing, China leads in renewables(and that's not even considering nuclear investment).

    https://www.counterpunch.org/2017/07/18/china-now-leads-in-renewables/

    * I tend to dislike the word AI a lot. Its subject to a lot of hype and in my opinion, machine learning systems that provide improved decision-making feedback are not truly artificial intelligence. But it seems to be the best word for it now.

    I’ve heard that necessity is the mother of every invention but there is no way I can be that optimistic about technology. Its going to have to be different strokes for different folks on this matter also :-)

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  40. gT says:
    @Duke of Qin
    The warring states period was by comparison quite pacific and orderly. All of the states were the ducal heirs of the kingdom of Zhou and shared an overarching monoculture. Like the city states of ancient Greece or the German principalities of medieval Europe, they were politically fragmented but shared the same values and customs.

    The modern world is on the other hand a wild dangerous place, filled with wildly different peoples and sundry barbarians with grossly different values. I would be more positive if I thought the Chinese race were stronger, but we aren't. Unlike the undomesticated negro with his raw strength who overawes all peoples with his presence, the cunning Jew who is able to subvert others to his cause, the wild eyed Mohammedan with his unrelenting faith, or the Hindu who is a combination of the (worst) traits of Jew and Mussalman, or even the nihilistic hypocritical European driven by the desire to see his own race destroyed and everyone else along with it, the Chinese are socially a weak people. We are meek, passive, lacking in assabiyah, and just all around too domesticated to survive in a war of all against all that modern "liberal" societies seek to create. Compared to the warring states of old where defeat meant you paid your taxes to one Duke as opposed to another, defeat now means your racial annihilation and debasement. Our one redeeming feature is our state, a government ruled at the top by flinty eyed bastards thoroughly opposed to a liberal world order. That they can and do use the state to crushing effect to protect our race against the outside is a "feature" not bug that Western liberals seek to undermine at every opportunity.

    This is where I heartily disagree, the best way to safeguard the Chinese now, as then, is heavily armed isolationism. Triple the defense budget, more nukes, ships, more jets and zero emigration or immigration. Basically buy our shit, stay out, and leave us the hell alone, a historically relevant policy worth emulating.

    How can you have isolationism and have other people buy your ‘stuff’? That is not isolationism, that is still globalization.

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  41. @Duke of Qin
    I shouldn't be surprised that Derbyshire would quote Midler considering his own paucity of knowledge that primarily stems from marrying a race traitor.

    Midler is the Malcom Gladwell of China hands, writing pithy "just-so" anecdotes that sound plausible to the ignorant but collapse once his theories are subject to the rigorous scrutiny. His tea example being one of them, flat our wrong, but plausible sounding if you are relying on faulty heuristics.

    The reason that China drives some white expats nutty as it were has a deeper psychological reason. The same type of oriental fatigue exists all throughout the far east but it primarily stems from resentment engendered by two factors. Reality not matching up with wishful expectations and the contempt engendered by unwarranted generosity. The Chinese are not isolationist enough and far too charitable with the Westerners among them, giving them too much for so little. Like the spoiling of a child, this creates a sense of entitlement among certain caliber of expats that manifests as seething resentment towards their benefactors. No doubt some whites will take umbrage at this observation but consider if you will the simmering hostility and contempt with which Muslim immigrants in Europe regard the natives, natives whose tax dollars pay for their welfare benefits. It's a very human failing that stems from a character flaw.

    You have some of the best comments and perspectives on China I’ve ever seen. Please consider having a blog.

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  42. Reading John Derbyshire’s past articles against Chinese nationalism, I can only conclude that he wants the Chinese to be cucked. He doesn’t say it out loud but it is quite implicit in his writings. He wants to preserve the white race (understandable) but is indignant that China wants to remain Chinese. Nationalism for me but not for you!

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    • Replies: @John Derbyshire
    I don't know how you get that. I'd like the Chinese to restrict their territorial ambitions to metropolitan China, i.e. get the heck out of Tibet and Eastern Turkestan; but within that zone I'm happy for them t0 be as nationalist as they please.
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  43. The most wince-inducing aspect of this national trait is the frequent announcements out of Peking

    No more wince-inducing than Derb’s defense of the awful neonym Czechia.

    “Peking” fits our tongue much better than “Beijing”, two of which consonants we can’t pronounce, so Derb is right to use it. So what’s the deal with “Czechia”, which doesn’t fit, and the Czechs won’t even use themselves?

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    • Replies: @Lars Porsena
    Czechia is a phonetic abomination. Worst idea ever. If you need a nickname for the land that doesn't include the word "republic", it should be Bohemia.

    To the extent I've seen people argue against Bohemia they usually say because the Czech Republic includes Moravia as well. But the medieval kingdom of Bohemia included Moravia, and also Silesia.
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  44. @Duke of Qin
    God I hope not. The Taiwanese are a bunch of boring deracinate cucks who are happy to follow the West into oblivion if it means some additional status points for themselves. The Mainlanders need double down on the nationalism. Not the shitty "big state" nationalism of the Communist Party though (analogous to Putin's version of Russian Nationalism or even the dominant strain of American nationalism), rather the natural tribal racial nationalism of the Han people. Volkish race nationalism good; Imperialist boilerplate masquerading as nationalism, bad.

    Good. I think you have the right attitude and I wish you and your nation much success.

    A couple pieces of advice from the decaying West;

    If China does decide to take up democracy (and really you shouldn’t, a benign nationalist dictatorship is best) for the love of God, don’t let women vote. And DO NOT let Jews in. A couple of diplomats from Israel and nothing more.

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    • Replies: @Alden
    I read Jewish publications all the time They are always writing about how much Jewish and Chinese are similar. They praise Chinese woman Jewish man marriages as much as they praised Jewish communist woman black man marriages 60 years ago. They constantly write about the Persian Jewish trader colony in China that existed for centuries

    The Jews are looking to make their next historic jump and China is their target.
    It will be interesting. If the Jews manage to conquer China as they conquered Russia and America it will be proof that the God of Israel does exist and that Jews are his chosen.

    Senator Feinstein’s husband, Richard Blum was investing in the PRC as early as 1973. He’s made billions from those investments.
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  45. Hker says:
    @Duke of Qin
    Nice guys finish last. Chinese shouldn't become "nicer", they need to get meaner. Atavism is the word of the day and they need to embrace "meanness" to survive in an ever darker world. I've seen the behavior of the so-called "nice" Chinese; deracinated compradors with fertility rates below 1 whose primary desire is overpriced real estate and cargo culting the West and miscegenating themselves into oblivion. In other words, an evolutionary dead end. Ill take Henan peasant over Shanghai cosmopolitan any day of the week and twice on Sundays. One of the good things about the Communist Party is that they have universalized Chinese nationalism to no longer be the exclusive realm of educated elites. Next step is to foster a siege mentality of us against the world and project that "meanness" against outsiders. Race War Now.

    The war to end all war will come but we need to bid our time. There is a need to unite all East Asians ( Koreans, jap and Chinese diaspora ) and bring them into China’s orbit as was the case during the Tang and Song Dynasty, this can only be achieved through economic, technological or cultural superiority and integration where these countries will submit to China and have no objections to been vassal states. South east Asia needs to be taken for their resources ( as jap were doing WWII> and the low IQ breeds subjugated. This process might take another 50-100 years but it needs to happen before the Asia is ready to take on the West for the final showdown. It will begin in Australia where we will clean up all the white trash there. But I think the west would have imploded by then and they will all be speaking Chinese anyway…

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    • Replies: @Duke of Qin
    Why bother? I don't particularly care what the Koreans and Japanese do. As long as they aren't actively hostile and part of some subversive liberal coalition then they might as well be on Mars for all I care. Also subjugating others, especially stupid others, is a really bad idea. It is inevitably going to result in foreigners entering China in unprecedented numbers. This has happened before in China's past as it is happening to the West today. My Prime Directive is the survival of the Chinese race first and foremost. Beating up SE Asian Muslim isn't related to this goal, leave the quixotic crusading to the Americans.

    As for the final racial reckoning I honestly don't see it happening. The West isn't going to go down with a bang, rather it will die with a whimper. If they do summon the will to survive, then they won't be actually be a subversive threat. Just look at Poland, Hungary, Austria, and the Czech Republic. Really nothing good has ever happened with China's interactions with outsiders. Isolationism is really the best policy.
    , @WhiteWolf
    You'll be lucky to find any Whites in Australia in 50-100 years going by the demographics changes here the last 20 years.
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  46. @myself
    Maybe we shouldn't be all too quick to say that the Chinese have no beliefs. Say instead that they are searching for their footing in the world, having closed themselves off for centuries. So, indeed, if you are looking for set doctrines and ideas, well, it's way too early for that.

    They opened up in, at the earliest, 1978. In fact, the Reform and Opening did not become national policy until 1982.

    But back to the "no beliefs". During the early days of the Islamic expansion, in the 7th Century AD, Arab traders who had traversed the Silk Road, that there were these teeming masses in the East with no conception of God, and no faith to oppose to the Light and Truth of Islam. Surely, here was a massive opportunity for conversion. When Islam reaches that land, the inhabitants would be theologically and philosophically defenseless - or so thought the Imams of that age.

    In the 1800s, it was Christianity's turn to try their hand at the easy pickings that would be the Chinese. Where others failed, the Truth of Christianity would have universal appeal. Or so thought the missionaries of that later age.

    What they forgot was that the Chinese identity predated both their religions, by thousands of years.
    Communism did not affect the essential Russian character, nor that of the Chinese - it simply wasn't around long enough.

    It could tell of a soulless, small-hearted people only focused on the material world, too.

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  47. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Rodney Gilbert wrote with a frankness about race that would make his book utterly unpublishable nowadays

    It seems rather tame for the time period, though.

    and oddities like the botanist Robert Fortune.

    Quite a few of the old travelogues detailing foreign cultures came from botanists.

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  48. @Clyde
    An Amazon review for Poorly Made in China by Paul Midler:

    Like he was with me on every buy
    July 16, 2010
    Format: Hardcover|Verified Purchase
    I have done business in China since 1986. I know from experience how tricky and dangerous it is, especially for the newcomer. Curiously Mr. Midler refers to suppliers in Shantou (Canton Province) and I too have many suppliers there. Apparently this behavior amongst the Chinese is across the board no matter what product you work with. And they don't care no matter what threats or promises you make. I actually had one supplier who told me he would no longer sell to me because "you complain too much"! No loss to me, easily replaced you can be sure. Communists or not, the almighty greenback is king in China but as Mr. Midler makes very clear, it is not going to get you what you think you contracted for. Something close, maybe, but not right on target.

    The Chinese screwed up so many of my shipments that I got the distinct impression that the translaters were interpreting my directions, not translating them. So I spent years learning to speak Mandarin. I am totally fluent now, have often been mistaken for being Chinese on the telephone by those who had not yet met me. No matter, I told them straight out what I wanted in their own language and STILL they basically did it wrong to shave off a few bucks to their advantage. I could never understand that way of thinking, in America we keep the customers happy to perpetuate our business with them, we do not consistently antagonize them. This book will open your eyes if you want to do business in China and if you are already there you cannot help but agree with everything he says. Pay close attention, he knows what he is talking about.

    They will go behind your back and try to deal directly with your customer, they will yes you to death and then do whatever they please without any regard for you or your customer. I can offer dozens of examples but the one that most illustrates this is the supplier who sent the advance samples for approval, they were perfect. He then went and made the million piece order to his own liking. It was a Halloween item to be made in Orange and Black, the 1000 piece advance samples were right on the money. When the order came in, it was made in Red and Blue. They told us the factory boss thought Orange and Black was a terrible color combination so he made what he thought was pretty. Hence we had a million red and blue product with ghosts and goblins and all printed on them, in red and blue and the words "Happy Halloween". THAT is when we transferred half our entire production of all products to India. We still do some business in China but had I read this book twenty years ago I never would have gotten involved in China at all!
    I highly recommend this book, it is all true and frightening so use it well and be aware. Be very aware.

    And because of that, Singaporeans are usually derided by other chinese for being too naive – we do aim for long term advantages and customer relationships as inculcated by our western upbringing, although we also lapse all too frequently into our genetic heritage.

    As the common saying goes, “台湾人无耻,香港人无情,大陆人无耻又无情,新加坡人无知.”

    Translated – Taiwanese are shameless, Hong Kongers are merciless, Mainlanders are shameless and merciless, and Singaporeans are ignorant/naive/stupid.

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    • Replies: @J L
    " we do aim for long term advantages and customer relationships as inculcated by our western upbringing, although we also lapse all too frequently into our genetic heritage."

    Yes, we know. You have 300 year of glory of enslaving, pillaging, and mass murdering. Your time is up. Your advantage is gone, and you are trying to hold others at your gun (canon)point with borrowed money. It is part of your barbaric western heritage, and your genetic heritage only shows others how clueless you are.
    , @ThatDamnGood
    Look here now, aren't you buying into the Western kool aid that quality, being concerned about one's reputation, etc, is something that can only found in Western cultures, or some variant of it is mostly like that in the West but only sometimes like that in China...

    That there are Singaporeans thinking like you shows the negative effects of British Colonialism. Singaporeans (Chinese) do say they kept the best British culture while the UK is now full of chavs and the like while retaining their Chinese heritage which I largely agree. But it also seems to made 'you guys' more susceptible to Western propaganda at perhaps an unconscious level.

    Correct me if I am wrong, but I doubt that 名誉 is a Japanese loan word/term from the last century.

    I suppose there is a certain amount of resentment that China is eating Singapore lunch at at increasing pace. But Lee Kuan Yew anticipated this would be so and said so like 30 years when he said Singapore needed to become a knowledge economy to hold it's own against China. And you guys are still trying to be one. But it's not China's fault that the 2 Prime Ministers after him lacked his execution ability or the benefit of having Albert Winsemius as his Zhugeliang and his plans failed to come about.

    If anything, Singapore or perhaps more accurately, the PAP should learn to pragmatic and accept things and see if there is a way to make the most of things as you guys would say. I mean in spite of Lee Hsien Loong, top CPC cadres are still sent to NTU right?

    Anyway, gong xi fa cai and so on and so forth...
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  49. denk says:

    The most wince-inducing aspect of this national trait is the frequent announcements out of Peking that some action by some foreign government—holding a meeting with the Dalai Lama, for example— has “hurt the feelings of the Chinese people.” Poor things! [Why so sensitive? A complete history of China’s ‘hurt feelings’, by David Bandurski, Hong Kong Free Press, January 29, 2016]

    [sic]

    Been dying to tell CCP,

    Bitching wins no wars.

    Dont get hurt, get even !

    Two can play at this game.

    High time China joins the ‘civilised ‘ world and take up this ‘human rights’ mantra, its a growth industry , dont let the whiteys have the field all to themselves.

    The whiteys had a head start on the market but for reasons best known to themselves, their pet indulgence is exclusively on the cuddly Tibetans head bashers, Uighurs cut throats, NED Chinese poster boys.

    There’R stuffs that they wont touch with a ten feet pole….ever seen the Chagosians, Okinawans, Jeju islanders, Iraq DU victims, Apak drone survivers, Kashmiris, Nagas, Manipuris, Dalits, West Papuans, Achenese ….invited to a sumtuous lunch in the WH /Downing Street ?

    There’s a vast untapped niche market out there waiting to be exploited.

    Chagosians, Nagas…. are the untouchable who have no voice, China should give them their voice., let them tell their stories to the world, with half the world’s journos in attendance, live broadcast to the world, CCP can afford it ;-)

    Havent the whiteys been telling China to be a responsible member of the international community and do something for human rights, what is CCP waiting for ?

    hehehhehe

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    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    Its a sign of intelligence that the CCP does not engage in that stupidity because it doesn't end well. There are a million better ways to waste blood and treasure that don't involve posturing as a saint to further separatism and internal disputes.

    There's a relevant saying for this:

    Play stupid games, earn stupid prizes.
    , @myself
    Ever since at least the 1960s, so-called moral activism in the Western world has been primarily about the activist - his/her worth as a good human being, an enlightened soul, a paragon of virtue.

    Pretty obvious that these crusaders don't care about the actual causes, or that there are real flesh and blood people for whom they may wish to be doing some good.

    Oh no, far more important to be SEEN and THOUGHT OF as good by one's peers.
    , @Alden
    Wouldn’t that cause a war between India and China. Lots of wars have started because country A took up the cause of a persecuted minority in country B.

    Or is that what you want, a war with China grabbing that part of NE India?
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  50. @Duke of Qin
    The warring states period was by comparison quite pacific and orderly. All of the states were the ducal heirs of the kingdom of Zhou and shared an overarching monoculture. Like the city states of ancient Greece or the German principalities of medieval Europe, they were politically fragmented but shared the same values and customs.

    The modern world is on the other hand a wild dangerous place, filled with wildly different peoples and sundry barbarians with grossly different values. I would be more positive if I thought the Chinese race were stronger, but we aren't. Unlike the undomesticated negro with his raw strength who overawes all peoples with his presence, the cunning Jew who is able to subvert others to his cause, the wild eyed Mohammedan with his unrelenting faith, or the Hindu who is a combination of the (worst) traits of Jew and Mussalman, or even the nihilistic hypocritical European driven by the desire to see his own race destroyed and everyone else along with it, the Chinese are socially a weak people. We are meek, passive, lacking in assabiyah, and just all around too domesticated to survive in a war of all against all that modern "liberal" societies seek to create. Compared to the warring states of old where defeat meant you paid your taxes to one Duke as opposed to another, defeat now means your racial annihilation and debasement. Our one redeeming feature is our state, a government ruled at the top by flinty eyed bastards thoroughly opposed to a liberal world order. That they can and do use the state to crushing effect to protect our race against the outside is a "feature" not bug that Western liberals seek to undermine at every opportunity.

    This is where I heartily disagree, the best way to safeguard the Chinese now, as then, is heavily armed isolationism. Triple the defense budget, more nukes, ships, more jets and zero emigration or immigration. Basically buy our shit, stay out, and leave us the hell alone, a historically relevant policy worth emulating.

    The modern world is on the other hand a wild dangerous place, filled with wildly different peoples and sundry barbarians with grossly different values. I would be more positive if I thought the Chinese race were stronger, but we aren’t….This is where I heartily disagree, the best way to safeguard the Chinese now, as then, is heavily armed isolationism. Triple the defense budget, more nukes, ships, more jets and zero emigration or immigration. Basically buy our shit, stay out, and leave us the hell alone, a historically relevant policy worth emulating.

    Oh and that worked out SO well last time.

    If we cannot survive in competition, then we do not deserve to survive.

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    • Replies: @Alden
    Maybe his excellency is right. It’s my opinion that both China and the United States have enough people, territory, resources and different climate that both countries could do very well with isolationism. Both countries can grow their own food and produce just about everything they need.

    Although China needs to import oil and gasoline no? Both countries should take care of themselves. America invaded the world militarily while China invades the world with cheap garbage that falls apart and poisonous dog food.

    American made furnaces, hot water heaters, stoves refrigators and other neccisities lasted 30 years. Your Chinese garbage breaks down in 10 or less.

    Most people think China can’t produce durable major purchase goods like furnaces. I think China makes garbage that falls apart so quickly to keep creating sales of the neccisities like furnaces stoves hot water heaters etc.
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  51. @Hker
    The war to end all war will come but we need to bid our time. There is a need to unite all East Asians ( Koreans, jap and Chinese diaspora ) and bring them into China's orbit as was the case during the Tang and Song Dynasty, this can only be achieved through economic, technological or cultural superiority and integration where these countries will submit to China and have no objections to been vassal states. South east Asia needs to be taken for their resources ( as jap were doing WWII> and the low IQ breeds subjugated. This process might take another 50-100 years but it needs to happen before the Asia is ready to take on the West for the final showdown. It will begin in Australia where we will clean up all the white trash there. But I think the west would have imploded by then and they will all be speaking Chinese anyway...

    Why bother? I don’t particularly care what the Koreans and Japanese do. As long as they aren’t actively hostile and part of some subversive liberal coalition then they might as well be on Mars for all I care. Also subjugating others, especially stupid others, is a really bad idea. It is inevitably going to result in foreigners entering China in unprecedented numbers. This has happened before in China’s past as it is happening to the West today. My Prime Directive is the survival of the Chinese race first and foremost. Beating up SE Asian Muslim isn’t related to this goal, leave the quixotic crusading to the Americans.

    As for the final racial reckoning I honestly don’t see it happening. The West isn’t going to go down with a bang, rather it will die with a whimper. If they do summon the will to survive, then they won’t be actually be a subversive threat. Just look at Poland, Hungary, Austria, and the Czech Republic. Really nothing good has ever happened with China’s interactions with outsiders. Isolationism is really the best policy.

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    • Replies: @neutral

    The West isn’t going to go down with a bang, rather it will die with a whimper.
     
    That is not true, the West died in the battles of Stalingrad and Berlin, so hardly a whimper. What exists now is not Western, call it what you want, but it has nothing to do with the past Western civilization.
    , @Mitchell Porter
    "subjugating others... is a really bad idea. It is inevitably going to result in foreigners entering China in unprecedented numbers. This has happened before in China’s past"

    When was that?
    , @Alden
    Hi there, your Grace, haven’t heard from you in a while. You always have interesting things to say.
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  52. J L says:
    @The Wobbly Guy
    And because of that, Singaporeans are usually derided by other chinese for being too naive - we do aim for long term advantages and customer relationships as inculcated by our western upbringing, although we also lapse all too frequently into our genetic heritage.

    As the common saying goes, "台湾人无耻,香港人无情,大陆人无耻又无情,新加坡人无知."

    Translated - Taiwanese are shameless, Hong Kongers are merciless, Mainlanders are shameless and merciless, and Singaporeans are ignorant/naive/stupid.

    ” we do aim for long term advantages and customer relationships as inculcated by our western upbringing, although we also lapse all too frequently into our genetic heritage.”

    Yes, we know. You have 300 year of glory of enslaving, pillaging, and mass murdering. Your time is up. Your advantage is gone, and you are trying to hold others at your gun (canon)point with borrowed money. It is part of your barbaric western heritage, and your genetic heritage only shows others how clueless you are.

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    • Replies: @The Wobbly Guy
    Lol, this reply didn't even make sense. Most Singaporean chinese were descended from South China provincials seeking a way out from the chaos that was endemic throughout the 19th and 20th century. Don't really get where the 300 years of enslaving, killing blah blah blah came from.

    Unless it's referring to the Taiping Rebellion, where we chinese killed far more of ourselves. In fact, looking at Chinese history, the most frequent killers of chinese were other chinese.

    Don't really get the borrowed money part either. On the whole, Sg is a creditor nation.
    , @Alden
    Might be a good idea to define what country you’re writing about. China???
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  53. @denk

    The most wince-inducing aspect of this national trait is the frequent announcements out of Peking that some action by some foreign government—holding a meeting with the Dalai Lama, for example— has “hurt the feelings of the Chinese people.” Poor things! [Why so sensitive? A complete history of China’s ‘hurt feelings’, by David Bandurski, Hong Kong Free Press, January 29, 2016]
     
    [sic]

    Been dying to tell CCP,

    Bitching wins no wars.

    Dont get hurt, get even !

    Two can play at this game.

    High time China joins the 'civilised ' world and take up this 'human rights' mantra, its a growth industry , dont let the whiteys have the field all to themselves.

    The whiteys had a head start on the market but for reasons best known to themselves, their pet indulgence is exclusively on the cuddly Tibetans head bashers, Uighurs cut throats, NED Chinese poster boys.

    There'R stuffs that they wont touch with a ten feet pole....ever seen the Chagosians, Okinawans, Jeju islanders, Iraq DU victims, Apak drone survivers, Kashmiris, Nagas, Manipuris, Dalits, West Papuans, Achenese ....invited to a sumtuous lunch in the WH /Downing Street ?

    There's a vast untapped niche market out there waiting to be exploited.

    Chagosians, Nagas.... are the untouchable who have no voice, China should give them their voice., let them tell their stories to the world, with half the world's journos in attendance, live broadcast to the world, CCP can afford it ;-)

    Havent the whiteys been telling China to be a responsible member of the international community and do something for human rights, what is CCP waiting for ?

    hehehhehe

    Its a sign of intelligence that the CCP does not engage in that stupidity because it doesn’t end well. There are a million better ways to waste blood and treasure that don’t involve posturing as a saint to further separatism and internal disputes.

    There’s a relevant saying for this:

    Play stupid games, earn stupid prizes.

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  54. Weaver1 says:
    @njguy73
    A question for John Derbyshire, or anyone who would know:

    The U.S. apologized for slavery. Britain apologized to Kenya, Belgium apologized to the Congo. Germany took responsibility for the Holocaust, Japan apologized for Nanking.

    Has China ever done anything warranting an apology? And if so, did one come forth?

    If not, is the world ready for a superpower with no sense of responsibility?

    The US obsesses over slavery as a political tool against white Americans. If you notice, the US imports many immigrants and guest workers. We’ve embraced a strategy of “invade-the-world; invite-the-world”, which results in the importation of angry refugees. We export our investment capital, expand our debt, etc. The US doesn’t serve the interests of US citizens.

    A better example might be how the US bends over backwards to help blacks, then blames whites when blacks fail to excel. Meanwhile, Asians outperform most everyone… Asian supremacist conspiracy perhaps? (That’s a joke.) By blaming whites, blacks are encouraged to be angry at whites, which divides society, creates disharmony.

    Some argue this is a “divide and conquer” strategy by America’s elite.

    Similarly, low IQ whites defend the exceedingly wealthy, thinking they’re mutually at risk from the angry blacks (among others on the “Left”). In truth, workers in general share many common political interests. So, the “divide-and-conquer” strategy appears to work very well on the population in general, or has in the past anyway.

    -

    In short, a superpower that “apologises” is not necessarily a good thing. It could be good. Every society sins of course.

    I certainly acknowledge slavery was wrong, but specific sins are focused upon and emphasised for political reasons. Man is fallen. Societies don’t usually act on morality but on power. There are some mostly good people, but most things occur because of power, greed, etc. And it’s much easier for one to play at being “good” when weak (and lacking temptation). Also, it’s often the ambitious who advance, not the good. I’m not suggesting a person should then become “evil”; I’m just highlighting how man is fallen.

    China has many sins. Tibet is a great example. China conquered Tibet, largely destroyed or reduced most of an ethnicity. I don’t wish it to “apologise”, but it should strive to protect Tibetan heritage, which it might well be doing. And of course, I’m no expert on the matter; so who am I to judge China?

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    • Replies: @denk
    China's Tibet
    http://www.absolutechinatours.com/UploadFiles/ImageBase/qinghai-tibet-railway(2).jpg

    India's Tibet
    https://d1u4oo4rb13yy8.cloudfront.net/article/56296-pmisccjusu-1492715722.jpg

    https://dissidentvoice.org/2016/06/legalized-tyranny-indias-armed-forces-special-powers-act/

    Who do you think should apologise. ?
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  55. Weaver1 says:
    @Duke of Qin
    The warring states period was by comparison quite pacific and orderly. All of the states were the ducal heirs of the kingdom of Zhou and shared an overarching monoculture. Like the city states of ancient Greece or the German principalities of medieval Europe, they were politically fragmented but shared the same values and customs.

    The modern world is on the other hand a wild dangerous place, filled with wildly different peoples and sundry barbarians with grossly different values. I would be more positive if I thought the Chinese race were stronger, but we aren't. Unlike the undomesticated negro with his raw strength who overawes all peoples with his presence, the cunning Jew who is able to subvert others to his cause, the wild eyed Mohammedan with his unrelenting faith, or the Hindu who is a combination of the (worst) traits of Jew and Mussalman, or even the nihilistic hypocritical European driven by the desire to see his own race destroyed and everyone else along with it, the Chinese are socially a weak people. We are meek, passive, lacking in assabiyah, and just all around too domesticated to survive in a war of all against all that modern "liberal" societies seek to create. Compared to the warring states of old where defeat meant you paid your taxes to one Duke as opposed to another, defeat now means your racial annihilation and debasement. Our one redeeming feature is our state, a government ruled at the top by flinty eyed bastards thoroughly opposed to a liberal world order. That they can and do use the state to crushing effect to protect our race against the outside is a "feature" not bug that Western liberals seek to undermine at every opportunity.

    This is where I heartily disagree, the best way to safeguard the Chinese now, as then, is heavily armed isolationism. Triple the defense budget, more nukes, ships, more jets and zero emigration or immigration. Basically buy our shit, stay out, and leave us the hell alone, a historically relevant policy worth emulating.

    Hi, I wanted to post this quote by Machiavelli:

    “Either we have to deal with a
    republic eager like Rome to extend its power, or with one content merely to maintain
    itself; in the former case it
    is necessary to do in all things as Rome did; in the latter,
    for the reasons and in the manner to be shown in the following Chapter, we may
    imitate Venice and Sparta.”

    However, in the next chapter he write: “But returning to the point first raised, I believe it
    necessary for us to follow the
    method of the Romans and not that of the other republics, for I know of no middle
    way. ”

    Citation: Chapters 5 & 6 from Discourses.

    I generally think as you do, that preserving one’s people is best. But mere preservation can lead to decay.

    Also, the book “Antifragility” caught my eye recently, basically arguing that a system should be designed so as to benefit from some difficulty, rather than to be weakened by it – similar to how muscles grow stronger from use.

    I’m not arguing against you, rather I’m just posting some comments you’ll find interesting. A nation-state built to endure, especially one that won’t commit suicide, is my dream.

    I imagine “isolation” could of course be taken overfar. Nothing in excess. But more-isolation certainly seems better to me. So much of American globalism is wasteful, and interaction with foreigners tends to bring unrealised costs.

    GK Chesterton recommended travel among polities to encourage fellowship and understanding. He also wished to preserve. His “Patriotic Idea” is focused on preserving Europe, especially the British Isles, but applies generally as a sort of ideology of piety and preservation. He favoured “Little England”.

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    • Replies: @Dave Bowman

    A nation-state built to endure, especially one that won’t commit suicide
     
    To those who loved it, it was called the "Third Reich".
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  56. @Abelard Lindsey
    I was screwed professionally by a Chinese guy. Yet, I have worked with other Chinese who are perfectly admirable. I am rational enough not to hate the whole society over the actions of one corrupt POS individual. Having said that, I will say that the biggest problem the Chinese face as a whole is their culture of corruption. Corruption is seriously their number one problem. All of their other problems are insignificant in comparison and would be easily overcome absent corruption.

    Duke ofQin: Good luck with that.

    Corruption is seriously their number one problem. All of their other problems are insignificant in comparison and would be easily overcome absent corruption.

    I concur completely. I think that the Communist party is aware of this as well. Corruption is an existential issue, one that ultimately far surpasses all the many other issues that the country has to deal with.

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    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman

    I concur completely. I think that the Communist party is aware of this as well. Corruption is an existential issue, one that ultimately far surpasses all the many other issues that the country has to deal with.
     
    Corruption is going to keep happening, Mr. Chieh, so long as the people have no morals. It's quite delusional thinking Communism is going to help. Communism for 30 hard-core years and now total 60 years running is what beat to hell whatever morals were existing in the Chinese people in the first place.

    Good luck with that corruption thing. See it in America too, do you? That's because we have imported a new people.

    BTW, I mean corruption at every level of society - at the top end, the corruption you will always have with you.
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  57. J L says:

    As a Chinese, I do not think there is a need to try to correct other people’s view of China. No matter how many years others study China, or live in China, they will not stop seeing China in their own culture perceptive, especially if the culture is white, western, or self-pronounced exceptionalists.

    As a Chinese, I use 1000s year old expressions to describe a situation, or understand a behavior, or explain a action in my everyday life.

    As a Chinese, I know my country’s history regardless what any outsider trying to say about us. There are enough history books and virtues pass down to us, and we know who we are, good and bad.

    It is normal to catch negative attention when you break to front of pack. It makes all the victories much more precious.

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    • Replies: @Weaver1
    Europe has 1000s year old expressions as well. For example, "Nothing in excess!"

    We just came to worship the Industrial Revolution, Enlightenment, simplistic ideologies, and "progress" rather than our own heritage.

    And like the Chinese, we've destroyed much of our history and heritage. Christianity and the change of language both reduced our historical memory. But we still have the Greeks and Romans.

    Confucius is wrong to entirely discourage foreign ideas. One can still learn from outsiders. It's just a disgrace that the Chinese currently place Marx, who was the lowest of the impious progress worshippers, before their own heritage. The Chinese still identify as "Communist"; as such, they dishonour their ancestors.

    , @Achmed E. Newman
    1,000 year-old expressions can be just as wrong as something an unz commenter Tiny Duck wrote this morning. There's a matter of right and wrong, and that's the problem with Confucianism - it's all about getting along, knowing your place in life, etc. The Western way is, or was, when you are right, you're right - speak up, no matter if not 1 in 100 people agree with you.

    As a Chinese, I know my country’s history regardless what any outsider trying to say about us. There are enough history books and virtues pass down to us, and we know who we are, good and bad.
     
    You might, J.L., but I have met so many Chinese people that know nothing of their own history. Chairman Mao was responsible for a lot of that.
    , @Daniel Chieh
    I don't agree. There are a number of outsiders who have provided cogent awareness of China, for example, Richard McGregor. I think a lot of it comes down to attitude and a certain kind of personality; its tragic, perhaps, but it does seem that individuals who come in already with a basically "atheistic" personality will fit in and understand the most. I think he also grew up in various Asian countries for his entire life, so for him, the familiarity is almost innate.
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  58. @J L
    " we do aim for long term advantages and customer relationships as inculcated by our western upbringing, although we also lapse all too frequently into our genetic heritage."

    Yes, we know. You have 300 year of glory of enslaving, pillaging, and mass murdering. Your time is up. Your advantage is gone, and you are trying to hold others at your gun (canon)point with borrowed money. It is part of your barbaric western heritage, and your genetic heritage only shows others how clueless you are.

    Lol, this reply didn’t even make sense. Most Singaporean chinese were descended from South China provincials seeking a way out from the chaos that was endemic throughout the 19th and 20th century. Don’t really get where the 300 years of enslaving, killing blah blah blah came from.

    Unless it’s referring to the Taiping Rebellion, where we chinese killed far more of ourselves. In fact, looking at Chinese history, the most frequent killers of chinese were other chinese.

    Don’t really get the borrowed money part either. On the whole, Sg is a creditor nation.

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    • Replies: @Alden
    10 million died in the Taiping rebellion. Farms, towns and workshops and factories, shipping, wagons, bridges horses and mules were all destroyed leaving a wasteland.

    A lot of the refugees ended up all over Indonesia, the Philippines and got to California a little before the Gold Rush. A lot of the old California Chinese are descended from them.

    Most western histories of China don’t even mention it. 2 retarded emperors in a row didn’t help either.

    China has had its ups and downs. It’s on a roll right now. Every country has its cycle.
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  59. neutral says:
    @Duke of Qin
    Why bother? I don't particularly care what the Koreans and Japanese do. As long as they aren't actively hostile and part of some subversive liberal coalition then they might as well be on Mars for all I care. Also subjugating others, especially stupid others, is a really bad idea. It is inevitably going to result in foreigners entering China in unprecedented numbers. This has happened before in China's past as it is happening to the West today. My Prime Directive is the survival of the Chinese race first and foremost. Beating up SE Asian Muslim isn't related to this goal, leave the quixotic crusading to the Americans.

    As for the final racial reckoning I honestly don't see it happening. The West isn't going to go down with a bang, rather it will die with a whimper. If they do summon the will to survive, then they won't be actually be a subversive threat. Just look at Poland, Hungary, Austria, and the Czech Republic. Really nothing good has ever happened with China's interactions with outsiders. Isolationism is really the best policy.

    The West isn’t going to go down with a bang, rather it will die with a whimper.

    That is not true, the West died in the battles of Stalingrad and Berlin, so hardly a whimper. What exists now is not Western, call it what you want, but it has nothing to do with the past Western civilization.

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    • Replies: @Weaver1
    By your logic, China could arguably be "not-Chinese" today. Instead it's "Marxist" or was Marxist. I suppose the elite in China are still Chinese though, but Jewish rule doesn't entirely explain the decline of the West.

    The West has been greatly harmed by one-way mass media and by our centralisation and transience. A tiny elite was empowered to remake society, and it did. Individuals were at the mercy of elites, even as those same individuals proclaimed how free and independent they were.

    Asia is just rising at a different time and environment. WWII did not necessarily change the trajectory. We could have still committed suicide.

    It's clear today that modernism and technology can be harmful. Too many Europeans came to worship the impious and individualist "Faustian spirit". As such, they gladly abandoned the past to commit societal suicide, all in the name of "progress" and moving "forward" towards madness. Progress though falls to relativity outside some religion or tradition to define it.
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  60. Weaver1 says:
    @neutral

    The West isn’t going to go down with a bang, rather it will die with a whimper.
     
    That is not true, the West died in the battles of Stalingrad and Berlin, so hardly a whimper. What exists now is not Western, call it what you want, but it has nothing to do with the past Western civilization.

    By your logic, China could arguably be “not-Chinese” today. Instead it’s “Marxist” or was Marxist. I suppose the elite in China are still Chinese though, but Jewish rule doesn’t entirely explain the decline of the West.

    The West has been greatly harmed by one-way mass media and by our centralisation and transience. A tiny elite was empowered to remake society, and it did. Individuals were at the mercy of elites, even as those same individuals proclaimed how free and independent they were.

    Asia is just rising at a different time and environment. WWII did not necessarily change the trajectory. We could have still committed suicide.

    It’s clear today that modernism and technology can be harmful. Too many Europeans came to worship the impious and individualist “Faustian spirit”. As such, they gladly abandoned the past to commit societal suicide, all in the name of “progress” and moving “forward” towards madness. Progress though falls to relativity outside some religion or tradition to define it.

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    • Replies: @neutral

    but Jewish rule doesn’t entirely explain the decline of the West
     
    It explains the parts that matter the most. WW2 was a battle between who should rule, which sadly the jews won. The rest that came after was simply the jews imposing their will on anything that still dares challenge their authority.
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  61. @Daniel Chieh

    Corruption is seriously their number one problem. All of their other problems are insignificant in comparison and would be easily overcome absent corruption.
     
    I concur completely. I think that the Communist party is aware of this as well. Corruption is an existential issue, one that ultimately far surpasses all the many other issues that the country has to deal with.

    I concur completely. I think that the Communist party is aware of this as well. Corruption is an existential issue, one that ultimately far surpasses all the many other issues that the country has to deal with.

    Corruption is going to keep happening, Mr. Chieh, so long as the people have no morals. It’s quite delusional thinking Communism is going to help. Communism for 30 hard-core years and now total 60 years running is what beat to hell whatever morals were existing in the Chinese people in the first place.

    Good luck with that corruption thing. See it in America too, do you? That’s because we have imported a new people.

    BTW, I mean corruption at every level of society – at the top end, the corruption you will always have with you.

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    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    Its not Communism that's solving the problem. Its the panopticon. And its working.

    As for morals, as someone else has mentioned, it has a lot to do with prosperity.

    But in and of itself:

    Corruption is just a cost to the system, with varying impact on the lives of people. Lobbying in the US, for example, is legal but could be seen as corruption in much of the world(pay a congressman's friend to convince him of the merits of the corn industry...its hard to see how in many ways, it isn't a bribe). High level corruption, even when it exists, is felt less and causes less discord than low-level corruption: GE, for example, actually once legally legislated a tax-free year for themselves which was sent through as a rider to a bill. This is far more money than, for example, a policeman asking a citizen for a bribe but the latter is felt more acutely and causes more dissatisfaction.

    The US was not "free for corruption" before the new people either. Much of what has changed is perception of what is corruption; President Lincoln, for example, wrote a number of recommendation letters for job candidates where he basically asked for jobs for his candidates based on what we will see as nepotism("Mr. So & So's father is a distinguished and excellent friend of mine, could you please find it possible to hire his son?") Of course, President Grant's "drinking companions" brought about a level of corruption that was seen as ridiculous even by the era. So nepotism was seen as acceptable corruption; intemperate friends not so much.

    My point isn't to bash Americans or defend the Chinese; I try to be objective while realizing the limitations of perspective. What I try to do is to find what's reality and call to note that past, present and future are often shifting media in both what was possible, the moral environment of the time, and yes, the type of people involved. Consider this - in a future world, it is possible that in a theoretical open-borders country, preferentially hiring countrymen instead of foreigners would be seen as corruption(as a form of extended nepotism). Would this "corruption" be wrong? Is "nepotism" wrong if Lincoln tried to privilege children of killed Union officers? A lot of it is very much definition and era.

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  62. Weaver1 says:
    @J L
    As a Chinese, I do not think there is a need to try to correct other people's view of China. No matter how many years others study China, or live in China, they will not stop seeing China in their own culture perceptive, especially if the culture is white, western, or self-pronounced exceptionalists.

    As a Chinese, I use 1000s year old expressions to describe a situation, or understand a behavior, or explain a action in my everyday life.

    As a Chinese, I know my country's history regardless what any outsider trying to say about us. There are enough history books and virtues pass down to us, and we know who we are, good and bad.

    It is normal to catch negative attention when you break to front of pack. It makes all the victories much more precious.

    Europe has 1000s year old expressions as well. For example, “Nothing in excess!”

    We just came to worship the Industrial Revolution, Enlightenment, simplistic ideologies, and “progress” rather than our own heritage.

    And like the Chinese, we’ve destroyed much of our history and heritage. Christianity and the change of language both reduced our historical memory. But we still have the Greeks and Romans.

    Confucius is wrong to entirely discourage foreign ideas. One can still learn from outsiders. It’s just a disgrace that the Chinese currently place Marx, who was the lowest of the impious progress worshippers, before their own heritage. The Chinese still identify as “Communist”; as such, they dishonour their ancestors.

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    • Replies: @myself
    Oh I agree, China calls itself "Communist" alright. They have the outer forms, they have the terms.

    But I think it was in 1989 when Alexander Solzhenitsyn toured parts of China, during a key moment in history: the Berlin Wall was about to fall, the Soviet Union was still formally whole, and China had just embarked on the Reform Era.

    What he said was something to the effect of "What I am seeing in action in China is not any kind of Communism I've ever seen in my life."

    Point is, I would wager that present-day China is the country which is the least bound by any sort of dogma or ideology or indeed of any arbitrary self-conception."We are good Communists or "We are a Republic and Democratic, etc" - said no Chinese in the last 30 years.
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  63. @J L
    As a Chinese, I do not think there is a need to try to correct other people's view of China. No matter how many years others study China, or live in China, they will not stop seeing China in their own culture perceptive, especially if the culture is white, western, or self-pronounced exceptionalists.

    As a Chinese, I use 1000s year old expressions to describe a situation, or understand a behavior, or explain a action in my everyday life.

    As a Chinese, I know my country's history regardless what any outsider trying to say about us. There are enough history books and virtues pass down to us, and we know who we are, good and bad.

    It is normal to catch negative attention when you break to front of pack. It makes all the victories much more precious.

    1,000 year-old expressions can be just as wrong as something an unz commenter Tiny Duck wrote this morning. There’s a matter of right and wrong, and that’s the problem with Confucianism – it’s all about getting along, knowing your place in life, etc. The Western way is, or was, when you are right, you’re right – speak up, no matter if not 1 in 100 people agree with you.

    As a Chinese, I know my country’s history regardless what any outsider trying to say about us. There are enough history books and virtues pass down to us, and we know who we are, good and bad.

    You might, J.L., but I have met so many Chinese people that know nothing of their own history. Chairman Mao was responsible for a lot of that.

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    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    The central point of Confucianism isn't that. Its "societal grammar" through which harmony could emerge. In and of itself, it is eminently sensible: language is much reduced if grammar cannot be used and the same applies to people. If we did not speak the same language, for example, we couldn't communicate. If we did not use grammar, our communication would be impeded.

    Confucianism merely takes that and applies to expectations on individuals as well - note that the West itself was not free of this historically; thus expectations that women would eventually be married, and that spinsters were somewhat odd. Men were often expected to take on their father's professions, and a variety of other mores which were based in a society where capital was mostly based out of land, limited centralization and a generally sedentary existence. Insofar as Confucianism's greatest weakness is that it also is not highly tailored for the migratory lives of moderns.

    It should not, then, be considered as a great surprise that atomization and individuality vastly accelerated in urbanized environments which removed the individual from his family and mores; it is not coincidental that the libertine and individualized 60s developed from the generation immediately after the great urbanization of the 40s. This evolved to what it is now where self-identity has actualized such that one can define himself as being of any gender or even species. As capital is no longer really provided by possession of land, values such as courage or territoriality are deemphasized for social "feminine" skills because objectively, the former are actually not longer as useful or profitable. You don't have to defend your cattle from rustlers anymore; you get rich by hobbling as many talented people and getting them to work together.

    The current state of anomie is tragic, but inevitable given the vast changes in society. Insofar as seemingly meaningless rituals go, they nonetheless have value in that their practice affirms a certain identity and sometimes are particularly valuable in that they are irrational. Catholicism, for example, insists that the spiritual quality of bread and wine turn into spiritual flesh and blood of the Savior, despite visual evidence otherwise. Nonetheless, through common agreement of this belief, it creates a certain bond and is useful social technology.

    , @J L

    but I have met so many Chinese people that know nothing of their own history. Chairman Mao was responsible for a lot of that.
     
    They do not know your western version of Chinese history....
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  64. @Daniel Chieh

    AGREED, and also not part of the founders plan for Federal government, BTW

     

    But its hard to argue that they didn't suspect it'll get to this point. They even wrote it about themselves that any line for voting could be seen as arbitrary. I think it was Adams that wrote something like: "If it is limited to white men of great property, why not white men of small property? If limited to white men of property, why not all white men? Why not all men, instead of white men? And so on..."

    The incentives in a democracy ultimately don't line up not to move toward universal suffrage, because the opposition party always needs to bring in more voters to buttress their ranks. Of course, the founders were opposed to parties and cliques too, but the necessity of it was such that they were effectively creating their own even as they wrote against it.

    Perhaps its different in an European multiparty democracy with no clear opposition, only coalitions. Nonetheless, universal suffrage seems to be the rule there too, so perhaps the only difference is that opposition party is replaced by opposition coalition.

    (Sorry for all the very late replies, Daniel and Jason – I ran out of time yesterday.)

    The American founders in NO WAY figured that women were ever going to be voting in elections. This nefarious idea came in to being a century ago. I have not read very much about it, because it digusts me, but I am starting to wonder who was behind this “suffrage” crap.

    You keep mentioning “democracy”, Daniel, but that was not the type of government this country was founded as.

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    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    My reply appears to be lost, so retyping in fewer words. In summary, I'm not sure if the "intent" matters that much; both St. Augustine's City of God and Marx's communism can be ideal forms of government, as could the notion of a republic, but in practice it could not avoid ceasing to be the ideal form even during the lives of the founders due to the foibles of human nature. E.g. Jacksonian democracy was specifically what some of the founders were opposed to, but they couldn't do anything to stop it from happening.
    , @HogHappenin
    Ha! Democracy!!! that hallowed piece of crap that provides Uncle Sam (or is it Uncle Schlomo??) to bomb the crap out of many countries!

    Nice to see it crumbling in the belly of the beast I left quite a white ago!
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  65. @another fred

    I, myself am partial to Chocolate moon pies, especially when accompanied by a Chocolate or Strawberry Yoohoo.
     
    In these parts (Alabama) the proper accompaniment for a Moon Pie was an RC Cola in the old days ('50s and '60s).

    With Mardi Gras just over most of us have had our needs for Moon Pies filled for a year.

    How ’bout a Cheer Wine instead, Fred?

    No, I can’t wait for next Mardi Gras myself – Circle K is beckoning.

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  66. @Duke of Qin
    Belief doesn't matter. Ritual is the foundation of behavior and social order. Confucius pointed this out nearly 3000 years ago. All the sacrifices are pointless and all the proper observances are irrelevant, but they still matter because in performing them you are conducting yourself properly and it impacts on behavior elsewhere. It's how Judaism and Islam work, all the seemingly pointless rituals and taboos that set themselves apart from others are not useless, they are in fact precisely designed to enforce certain behaviors that lead to the propagation of mores Jews and Muslims.

    People can run through all the rituals they want, but that doesn’t make them better people. Go to a strip club with a Moslem guy and see how well those rituals work, Duke.

    The lack of morals in the current Chinese culture (in general, that is) is not going to change due to following of the proper Tomb-sweeping rituals, the eating of Moon Pies Cakes, and riding on Dragon Boats. My example of burning the fake money is appropriate here. They can go through the rituals, but nobody has any belief that it means anything.

    If anything, I think the rituals in China will just get more commericalized, as Christmas is. The really ironic thing is this: After the dark years of Communism abating in China, while the insidious version of Communism is increasing in America, you will very well may see more of Santa Clause and Christmas trees on the streets in Shanghai than in freakin New York City. Yet, they don’t really believe a word of it in Shanghai – maybe same in New York City(?)

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  67. Weaver1 says:
    @Realist
    "What’s wrong with us?"

    No pride in self.

    No. We lost our piety, traditions, and the wisdom of our ancestors. We lost pride in our history and culture.

    We instead just assumed we could “progress” forward with magical science and individualism, that our natural genetic superiority would inexplicably propel us without the need of additional aids.

    There’s no group of people on Earth more easily manipulated than an uprooted English nuclear-family individualist who knows no history and has no traditional safeguards and community ties. And our extreme “capitalism” seems to naturally lead a society to socialism, though we pretend it’s the great alternative.

    While technology is important, we still see “right wing” Europeans praising our “Faustian spirit”; they seem to worship “progress” as a sort of religion and whites as that agent of “progress”. They’ve embraced madness.

    -

    We also grew soft from success and other reasons. Perhaps it’s true that were Jews not so powerful, European Christians would have righted things eventually. But our open, individualistic system enabled their great power.

    The US seems to have been behind much of the leftward shift among Europeans, post-WWII. Looking at the “conservative movement” in the US:

    The Greeks knew a large middle class to be beneficial, but “conservatives” viewed such as “socialist”.

    The Greeks knew the importance of culture, wouldn’t have allowed Hollywood to destroy society. But “conservatives” valued the free market. The Greeks wouldn’t have allowed Marxists to take over the universities either.

    And the Greeks knew overly large societies could be dangerous. And we have other legitimate conservative voices warning us of the unstable changes society had made.

    It’s the Godforesaken “conservative movement” (not to be confused with actual conservatives) that deserves some of the blame. It wasn’t only FOX and Conservative Inc but also the worship of ideology among many independent conservative Americans who should have known better. Just a brief reading of Aristotle and Belloc or even Machiavelli and Livy would have snapped them out of some of their foolishness.

    If we had pushed for a larger middle class back in the 60s (and continued to focus on preserving the middle class), maybe the 1965 immigration act and other policies wouldn’t have passed. Then other improvements could have been made to the system. But it was seen as essentially “socialist” to resist socialism.

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    • Replies: @Realist
    I agree, but it boils down to lost of pride in self.
    , @Bill
    Fantastic comment.
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  68. @myself
    Maybe we shouldn't be all too quick to say that the Chinese have no beliefs. Say instead that they are searching for their footing in the world, having closed themselves off for centuries. So, indeed, if you are looking for set doctrines and ideas, well, it's way too early for that.

    They opened up in, at the earliest, 1978. In fact, the Reform and Opening did not become national policy until 1982.

    But back to the "no beliefs". During the early days of the Islamic expansion, in the 7th Century AD, Arab traders who had traversed the Silk Road, that there were these teeming masses in the East with no conception of God, and no faith to oppose to the Light and Truth of Islam. Surely, here was a massive opportunity for conversion. When Islam reaches that land, the inhabitants would be theologically and philosophically defenseless - or so thought the Imams of that age.

    In the 1800s, it was Christianity's turn to try their hand at the easy pickings that would be the Chinese. Where others failed, the Truth of Christianity would have universal appeal. Or so thought the missionaries of that later age.

    What they forgot was that the Chinese identity predated both their religions, by thousands of years.
    Communism did not affect the essential Russian character, nor that of the Chinese - it simply wasn't around long enough.

    Thanks for the cogent reply, “yourself”. Your point seems to be that the Chinese character of “no beliefs” was resistant to Islamic attempts at conversion and later Christian ones. I think athism can be pretty resistant to any attempts at conversion, especially if, like the Chinese, the society is, or fancies itself, a better, more proseperous one than the one sending the evangelicals.

    Plenty of other countries have been converted forcibly (Islam is big on that, as we all know). That requires just more firepower, and can work in the long run, as once 2 or 3 generations have grown up in it, they know nothing else. Is there some essential character that will shine through even after one grows up in a Moslem world? I don’t know.

    I wrote this about Russia and this about China on the long-term effects of Communism, but it’s just pure speculation, rather than the erudite view of historical readings of Mr. Derbyshire.

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  69. @Achmed E. Newman

    I concur completely. I think that the Communist party is aware of this as well. Corruption is an existential issue, one that ultimately far surpasses all the many other issues that the country has to deal with.
     
    Corruption is going to keep happening, Mr. Chieh, so long as the people have no morals. It's quite delusional thinking Communism is going to help. Communism for 30 hard-core years and now total 60 years running is what beat to hell whatever morals were existing in the Chinese people in the first place.

    Good luck with that corruption thing. See it in America too, do you? That's because we have imported a new people.

    BTW, I mean corruption at every level of society - at the top end, the corruption you will always have with you.

    Its not Communism that’s solving the problem. Its the panopticon. And its working.

    As for morals, as someone else has mentioned, it has a lot to do with prosperity.

    But in and of itself:

    Corruption is just a cost to the system, with varying impact on the lives of people. Lobbying in the US, for example, is legal but could be seen as corruption in much of the world(pay a congressman’s friend to convince him of the merits of the corn industry…its hard to see how in many ways, it isn’t a bribe). High level corruption, even when it exists, is felt less and causes less discord than low-level corruption: GE, for example, actually once legally legislated a tax-free year for themselves which was sent through as a rider to a bill. This is far more money than, for example, a policeman asking a citizen for a bribe but the latter is felt more acutely and causes more dissatisfaction.

    The US was not “free for corruption” before the new people either. Much of what has changed is perception of what is corruption; President Lincoln, for example, wrote a number of recommendation letters for job candidates where he basically asked for jobs for his candidates based on what we will see as nepotism(“Mr. So & So’s father is a distinguished and excellent friend of mine, could you please find it possible to hire his son?”) Of course, President Grant’s “drinking companions” brought about a level of corruption that was seen as ridiculous even by the era. So nepotism was seen as acceptable corruption; intemperate friends not so much.

    My point isn’t to bash Americans or defend the Chinese; I try to be objective while realizing the limitations of perspective. What I try to do is to find what’s reality and call to note that past, present and future are often shifting media in both what was possible, the moral environment of the time, and yes, the type of people involved. Consider this – in a future world, it is possible that in a theoretical open-borders country, preferentially hiring countrymen instead of foreigners would be seen as corruption(as a form of extended nepotism). Would this “corruption” be wrong? Is “nepotism” wrong if Lincoln tried to privilege children of killed Union officers? A lot of it is very much definition and era.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    Another excellent example of this is Senator Richard Shelby working tirelessly to protect Alabama's role in NASA operations in supporting the ULA company. In this, one could argue that he is honorably protecting the jobs of his voters even if he had to import Russian engines to do so. In doing so, he might be harming Telsa's ability to build a working competing model that completely uses American labor and parts. Whether his actions are a form of corruption to protect local jobs at the expense of national performance or not heavily depends on one's perspective and terminal values.
    , @Achmed E. Newman
    You may have missed my last sentence, Daniel ("BTW, ...." ) at the bottom. I agree that there has been corruption at the top level in probably every government, with the US as no exception. I would point back to the railroad construction era for that. One thing to remember is that the bigger the government is, the more area of life and industry it's involved in, the more flavors of corruption you can have. Going back just a half-century or so, the biggest thing was probably the long-term Senators (esp. in the South) making sure the big military bases got placedthere, or never shut down when they should have been. It took lots of effort, you may recall from 20-30 years ago, to make impartial (ha! maybe?) base-closure committees to get rid of redundancies.

    This is what people never seem to get about Libertarianism. Smaller government doesn't allow as many areas of corruption, hence fewer opportunities for big money to influence the whole show. The problem with the big banks/banksters is the ultimate example of how, hand-in-hand, corrupt big money men and big gov can destroy a country completely - it's just not finished yet.

    High level corruption, even when it exists, is felt less and causes less discord than low-level corruption.
     
    Yes, I agree, and that was my point. The low-level everyday stuff is means a lack of any trust in society besides within the family. That's how it is in China. That's NOT how it was everywhere, and still is in some places, in America. I don't think it's really a good idea to import lots of people from place where there is no societal trust, do you?

    (I don't mean a few people here and there, as assimlation does work for numbers like, say, 100,000 newcomers a year that don't all go to Dearbornistan or Chinatown or Los Angeles.)
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  70. neutral says:
    @Weaver1
    By your logic, China could arguably be "not-Chinese" today. Instead it's "Marxist" or was Marxist. I suppose the elite in China are still Chinese though, but Jewish rule doesn't entirely explain the decline of the West.

    The West has been greatly harmed by one-way mass media and by our centralisation and transience. A tiny elite was empowered to remake society, and it did. Individuals were at the mercy of elites, even as those same individuals proclaimed how free and independent they were.

    Asia is just rising at a different time and environment. WWII did not necessarily change the trajectory. We could have still committed suicide.

    It's clear today that modernism and technology can be harmful. Too many Europeans came to worship the impious and individualist "Faustian spirit". As such, they gladly abandoned the past to commit societal suicide, all in the name of "progress" and moving "forward" towards madness. Progress though falls to relativity outside some religion or tradition to define it.

    but Jewish rule doesn’t entirely explain the decline of the West

    It explains the parts that matter the most. WW2 was a battle between who should rule, which sadly the jews won. The rest that came after was simply the jews imposing their will on anything that still dares challenge their authority.

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    • Replies: @Weaver1
    OK, in a theoretical poli sci debate I'd agree: who rules is what matters.

    But there's danger in oversimplification. Other lessons should be learned also, such as why powerful Europeans didn't advance their interests. Part of Jewish power is in how Jews currently advocate for their interests and work together as a group while white Gentiles currently do not.

    My fear is we'll repeat some of the same mistakes again or we'll view NS Germany as the alternative, rather than keeping an open mind. NS Germany was too managerial (I mean roughly too centralised) and too progressive. I know little of NS Germany, but it seems to me too modern.

    Also, I don't believe Jewish power was as dominant then as it is today. I'm not a believer it was only Jews who pushed us into WWII. Never underestimate English ineptitude. And I'm of colonial British descent (half English, half Scot, roughly). The English didn't appreciate the unique Bolshevik danger. They should have seen the Russians as the greater threat.

    In elite theory, elites drive the world. But I believe elite theory can be misunderstood. There are many elites, and they are disunited. Also, there are unintended consequences, "fate" (sheer luck).

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  71. @Daniel Chieh
    Its not Communism that's solving the problem. Its the panopticon. And its working.

    As for morals, as someone else has mentioned, it has a lot to do with prosperity.

    But in and of itself:

    Corruption is just a cost to the system, with varying impact on the lives of people. Lobbying in the US, for example, is legal but could be seen as corruption in much of the world(pay a congressman's friend to convince him of the merits of the corn industry...its hard to see how in many ways, it isn't a bribe). High level corruption, even when it exists, is felt less and causes less discord than low-level corruption: GE, for example, actually once legally legislated a tax-free year for themselves which was sent through as a rider to a bill. This is far more money than, for example, a policeman asking a citizen for a bribe but the latter is felt more acutely and causes more dissatisfaction.

    The US was not "free for corruption" before the new people either. Much of what has changed is perception of what is corruption; President Lincoln, for example, wrote a number of recommendation letters for job candidates where he basically asked for jobs for his candidates based on what we will see as nepotism("Mr. So & So's father is a distinguished and excellent friend of mine, could you please find it possible to hire his son?") Of course, President Grant's "drinking companions" brought about a level of corruption that was seen as ridiculous even by the era. So nepotism was seen as acceptable corruption; intemperate friends not so much.

    My point isn't to bash Americans or defend the Chinese; I try to be objective while realizing the limitations of perspective. What I try to do is to find what's reality and call to note that past, present and future are often shifting media in both what was possible, the moral environment of the time, and yes, the type of people involved. Consider this - in a future world, it is possible that in a theoretical open-borders country, preferentially hiring countrymen instead of foreigners would be seen as corruption(as a form of extended nepotism). Would this "corruption" be wrong? Is "nepotism" wrong if Lincoln tried to privilege children of killed Union officers? A lot of it is very much definition and era.

    Another excellent example of this is Senator Richard Shelby working tirelessly to protect Alabama’s role in NASA operations in supporting the ULA company. In this, one could argue that he is honorably protecting the jobs of his voters even if he had to import Russian engines to do so. In doing so, he might be harming Telsa’s ability to build a working competing model that completely uses American labor and parts. Whether his actions are a form of corruption to protect local jobs at the expense of national performance or not heavily depends on one’s perspective and terminal values.

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  72. jim jones says:

    I predict that China will follow the Japanese model, they will only grow as long as they can steal Western technology

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    That is fascinating because it makes it very difficult to see who was meant to be stirred up by such trolling nonsense.
    , @Che Guava
    That is an ignorant statement. Japan was (and remains) very important in consumer tech., one fundamental step forward was the development of advanced electronics separately from military programs.

    The world's most advanced OS at the time, TRON. That was a particular case of U.S. perfidy, while the U.S. was allowing sales and installation of Apple machines in schools, they were forcing, through threats, our govt. to halt a similar plan to have TRON computers as standard in schools, the U.S. was making all kinds of stupid threats, so the plan stopped.

    We were also the first place to have Java applications running on phones, called 'appli', not 'app', but the latter term is clearly derived from the former.

    Also the first for relatively large DRAMs, necessary to represent the written language. That too, was the target of trade war by the U.S.

    Much more.
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  73. @Achmed E. Newman
    1,000 year-old expressions can be just as wrong as something an unz commenter Tiny Duck wrote this morning. There's a matter of right and wrong, and that's the problem with Confucianism - it's all about getting along, knowing your place in life, etc. The Western way is, or was, when you are right, you're right - speak up, no matter if not 1 in 100 people agree with you.

    As a Chinese, I know my country’s history regardless what any outsider trying to say about us. There are enough history books and virtues pass down to us, and we know who we are, good and bad.
     
    You might, J.L., but I have met so many Chinese people that know nothing of their own history. Chairman Mao was responsible for a lot of that.

    The central point of Confucianism isn’t that. Its “societal grammar” through which harmony could emerge. In and of itself, it is eminently sensible: language is much reduced if grammar cannot be used and the same applies to people. If we did not speak the same language, for example, we couldn’t communicate. If we did not use grammar, our communication would be impeded.

    Confucianism merely takes that and applies to expectations on individuals as well – note that the West itself was not free of this historically; thus expectations that women would eventually be married, and that spinsters were somewhat odd. Men were often expected to take on their father’s professions, and a variety of other mores which were based in a society where capital was mostly based out of land, limited centralization and a generally sedentary existence. Insofar as Confucianism’s greatest weakness is that it also is not highly tailored for the migratory lives of moderns.

    It should not, then, be considered as a great surprise that atomization and individuality vastly accelerated in urbanized environments which removed the individual from his family and mores; it is not coincidental that the libertine and individualized 60s developed from the generation immediately after the great urbanization of the 40s. This evolved to what it is now where self-identity has actualized such that one can define himself as being of any gender or even species. As capital is no longer really provided by possession of land, values such as courage or territoriality are deemphasized for social “feminine” skills because objectively, the former are actually not longer as useful or profitable. You don’t have to defend your cattle from rustlers anymore; you get rich by hobbling as many talented people and getting them to work together.

    The current state of anomie is tragic, but inevitable given the vast changes in society. Insofar as seemingly meaningless rituals go, they nonetheless have value in that their practice affirms a certain identity and sometimes are particularly valuable in that they are irrational. Catholicism, for example, insists that the spiritual quality of bread and wine turn into spiritual flesh and blood of the Savior, despite visual evidence otherwise. Nonetheless, through common agreement of this belief, it creates a certain bond and is useful social technology.

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    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman

    It should not, then, be considered as a great surprise that atomization and individuality vastly accelerated in urbanized environments which removed the individual from his family and mores; ...
     
    I don't agree here. Agrarian America and the wide-open West of 250 - 100 years back were populated with some of the freest and most individualistic people, or families, that ever got to live in this world.

    It really helps having lots of space. Maybe Confucianism WAS best for China, since it has been a pretty crowded place for, like, forever. People don't realize from a map or globe how little good usuable space there is. There are steep mountains all over the damn place.

    Catholicism, for example, insists that the spiritual quality of bread and wine turn into spiritual flesh and blood of the Savior, despite visual evidence otherwise. Nonetheless, through common agreement of this belief, it creates a certain bond and is useful social technology.
     
    People take Communion all over Latin America - it's a ritual that makes life seem more stable, and the probably enjoy that. It doesn't make them any better people though. That's got to come from within.
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  74. denk says:

    WHAT’S WRONG with CHINA–A Study of Unchanged National Character

    These anglos are so cute,

    China today compared to Qing is like heaven and hell, never mind Qin Xi Huang era,

    WHAT’S WRONG with FUKUS–A Study of Unchanged National Character

    600 years of uninterrupted wars.

    http://i1.wp.com/www.loonwatch.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/US-war-graph.jpg?zoom=1.5&resize=426%2C386

    Once a war pig, always a war pig,

    hhhhhh

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  75. denk says:
    @Weaver1
    The US obsesses over slavery as a political tool against white Americans. If you notice, the US imports many immigrants and guest workers. We've embraced a strategy of "invade-the-world; invite-the-world", which results in the importation of angry refugees. We export our investment capital, expand our debt, etc. The US doesn't serve the interests of US citizens.

    A better example might be how the US bends over backwards to help blacks, then blames whites when blacks fail to excel. Meanwhile, Asians outperform most everyone... Asian supremacist conspiracy perhaps? (That's a joke.) By blaming whites, blacks are encouraged to be angry at whites, which divides society, creates disharmony.

    Some argue this is a "divide and conquer" strategy by America's elite.

    Similarly, low IQ whites defend the exceedingly wealthy, thinking they're mutually at risk from the angry blacks (among others on the "Left"). In truth, workers in general share many common political interests. So, the "divide-and-conquer" strategy appears to work very well on the population in general, or has in the past anyway.

    -

    In short, a superpower that "apologises" is not necessarily a good thing. It could be good. Every society sins of course.

    I certainly acknowledge slavery was wrong, but specific sins are focused upon and emphasised for political reasons. Man is fallen. Societies don't usually act on morality but on power. There are some mostly good people, but most things occur because of power, greed, etc. And it's much easier for one to play at being "good" when weak (and lacking temptation). Also, it's often the ambitious who advance, not the good. I'm not suggesting a person should then become "evil"; I'm just highlighting how man is fallen.

    China has many sins. Tibet is a great example. China conquered Tibet, largely destroyed or reduced most of an ethnicity. I don't wish it to "apologise", but it should strive to protect Tibetan heritage, which it might well be doing. And of course, I'm no expert on the matter; so who am I to judge China?

    China’s Tibet

    India’s Tibet

    https://dissidentvoice.org/2016/06/legalized-tyranny-indias-armed-forces-special-powers-act/

    Who do you think should apologise. ?

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  76. @Achmed E. Newman
    (Sorry for all the very late replies, Daniel and Jason - I ran out of time yesterday.)

    The American founders in NO WAY figured that women were ever going to be voting in elections. This nefarious idea came in to being a century ago. I have not read very much about it, because it digusts me, but I am starting to wonder who was behind this "suffrage" crap.

    You keep mentioning "democracy", Daniel, but that was not the type of government this country was founded as.

    My reply appears to be lost, so retyping in fewer words. In summary, I’m not sure if the “intent” matters that much; both St. Augustine’s City of God and Marx’s communism can be ideal forms of government, as could the notion of a republic, but in practice it could not avoid ceasing to be the ideal form even during the lives of the founders due to the foibles of human nature. E.g. Jacksonian democracy was specifically what some of the founders were opposed to, but they couldn’t do anything to stop it from happening.

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  77. @Daniel Chieh
    Its not Communism that's solving the problem. Its the panopticon. And its working.

    As for morals, as someone else has mentioned, it has a lot to do with prosperity.

    But in and of itself:

    Corruption is just a cost to the system, with varying impact on the lives of people. Lobbying in the US, for example, is legal but could be seen as corruption in much of the world(pay a congressman's friend to convince him of the merits of the corn industry...its hard to see how in many ways, it isn't a bribe). High level corruption, even when it exists, is felt less and causes less discord than low-level corruption: GE, for example, actually once legally legislated a tax-free year for themselves which was sent through as a rider to a bill. This is far more money than, for example, a policeman asking a citizen for a bribe but the latter is felt more acutely and causes more dissatisfaction.

    The US was not "free for corruption" before the new people either. Much of what has changed is perception of what is corruption; President Lincoln, for example, wrote a number of recommendation letters for job candidates where he basically asked for jobs for his candidates based on what we will see as nepotism("Mr. So & So's father is a distinguished and excellent friend of mine, could you please find it possible to hire his son?") Of course, President Grant's "drinking companions" brought about a level of corruption that was seen as ridiculous even by the era. So nepotism was seen as acceptable corruption; intemperate friends not so much.

    My point isn't to bash Americans or defend the Chinese; I try to be objective while realizing the limitations of perspective. What I try to do is to find what's reality and call to note that past, present and future are often shifting media in both what was possible, the moral environment of the time, and yes, the type of people involved. Consider this - in a future world, it is possible that in a theoretical open-borders country, preferentially hiring countrymen instead of foreigners would be seen as corruption(as a form of extended nepotism). Would this "corruption" be wrong? Is "nepotism" wrong if Lincoln tried to privilege children of killed Union officers? A lot of it is very much definition and era.

    You may have missed my last sentence, Daniel (“BTW, ….” ) at the bottom. I agree that there has been corruption at the top level in probably every government, with the US as no exception. I would point back to the railroad construction era for that. One thing to remember is that the bigger the government is, the more area of life and industry it’s involved in, the more flavors of corruption you can have. Going back just a half-century or so, the biggest thing was probably the long-term Senators (esp. in the South) making sure the big military bases got placedthere, or never shut down when they should have been. It took lots of effort, you may recall from 20-30 years ago, to make impartial (ha! maybe?) base-closure committees to get rid of redundancies.

    This is what people never seem to get about Libertarianism. Smaller government doesn’t allow as many areas of corruption, hence fewer opportunities for big money to influence the whole show. The problem with the big banks/banksters is the ultimate example of how, hand-in-hand, corrupt big money men and big gov can destroy a country completely – it’s just not finished yet.

    High level corruption, even when it exists, is felt less and causes less discord than low-level corruption.

    Yes, I agree, and that was my point. The low-level everyday stuff is means a lack of any trust in society besides within the family. That’s how it is in China. That’s NOT how it was everywhere, and still is in some places, in America. I don’t think it’s really a good idea to import lots of people from place where there is no societal trust, do you?

    (I don’t mean a few people here and there, as assimlation does work for numbers like, say, 100,000 newcomers a year that don’t all go to Dearbornistan or Chinatown or Los Angeles.)

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    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    Yes, I agree, and that was my point. The low-level everyday stuff is means a lack of any trust in society besides within the family. That’s how it is in China.
     
    Low level corruption is mostly gone these days by the time I last visited since 2015. A lot harder to give bribes when every most transactions are automatically monitored and the consequences of it is death, usually by "honor suicide." The low levels of trust still exist but as it becomes unprofitable to be a pianzi, it'll go away in a generation or so.

    To be honest, I'm a little bit saddened by some of it. The reason why I bring up mores is because I actually don't believe that hongbao giving, which can be seen as corruption, or the system of mutual indebtedness was actually such a terrible thing in a world where people had to stay set. It very much created a sense of family and relates into guanxi. But as with many things, what works in the past may not work now.
    , @myself
    My personal experience in China is that there was almost no low- and mid-level corruption or bribery, at least in the cities. I never experienced any difficulties in residence changes, visa renewals, nor any kind of hint from anyone that giving gifts or "reciprocity" was expected or wanted. Chinese municipal areas are run as very tight ships.

    Life in China is simple as a private citizen. You got to know the rules, you followed them, everything went smoothly. If you didn't follow them, things get hard for you.

    Now, that's in the cities, at the low/mid levels of governance. Didn't have a problem. Also noticed many restaurants had a "no tipping" rule - the waitresses returned tips, pointing out that they were not needed, nor allowed. Don't know what was up with that. Maybe to discourage favoring certain customers over others? Level of service was always consistent, though.

    Out in rural areas, pretty sure there must be some bribery, "gift" giving and corruption. No idea of the extent.
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  78. Realist says:
    @Weaver1
    No. We lost our piety, traditions, and the wisdom of our ancestors. We lost pride in our history and culture.

    We instead just assumed we could "progress" forward with magical science and individualism, that our natural genetic superiority would inexplicably propel us without the need of additional aids.

    There's no group of people on Earth more easily manipulated than an uprooted English nuclear-family individualist who knows no history and has no traditional safeguards and community ties. And our extreme "capitalism" seems to naturally lead a society to socialism, though we pretend it's the great alternative.

    While technology is important, we still see "right wing" Europeans praising our "Faustian spirit"; they seem to worship "progress" as a sort of religion and whites as that agent of "progress". They've embraced madness.

    -

    We also grew soft from success and other reasons. Perhaps it's true that were Jews not so powerful, European Christians would have righted things eventually. But our open, individualistic system enabled their great power.

    The US seems to have been behind much of the leftward shift among Europeans, post-WWII. Looking at the "conservative movement" in the US:

    The Greeks knew a large middle class to be beneficial, but "conservatives" viewed such as "socialist".

    The Greeks knew the importance of culture, wouldn't have allowed Hollywood to destroy society. But "conservatives" valued the free market. The Greeks wouldn't have allowed Marxists to take over the universities either.

    And the Greeks knew overly large societies could be dangerous. And we have other legitimate conservative voices warning us of the unstable changes society had made.

    It's the Godforesaken "conservative movement" (not to be confused with actual conservatives) that deserves some of the blame. It wasn't only FOX and Conservative Inc but also the worship of ideology among many independent conservative Americans who should have known better. Just a brief reading of Aristotle and Belloc or even Machiavelli and Livy would have snapped them out of some of their foolishness.

    If we had pushed for a larger middle class back in the 60s (and continued to focus on preserving the middle class), maybe the 1965 immigration act and other policies wouldn't have passed. Then other improvements could have been made to the system. But it was seen as essentially "socialist" to resist socialism.

    I agree, but it boils down to lost of pride in self.

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    • Replies: @Weaver1
    Oh, ty. Sorry to have wasted your time then.

    I used to could get people into debates with just that much, but now the only debates I seem to get into are over misunderstandings.

    I tend to reduce things to *loss of piety*, but I guess it's the content not the representative term that matters.

    , @dfordoom

    I agree, but it boils down to lost of pride in self.
     
    Or too much pride. Too much self-righteousness, too much of a busybody attitude, too little willingness to admit the possibility of being mistaken, too little respect for others. Too much narcissism. That's the modern West, and that's especially the U.S.
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  79. @Daniel Chieh
    The central point of Confucianism isn't that. Its "societal grammar" through which harmony could emerge. In and of itself, it is eminently sensible: language is much reduced if grammar cannot be used and the same applies to people. If we did not speak the same language, for example, we couldn't communicate. If we did not use grammar, our communication would be impeded.

    Confucianism merely takes that and applies to expectations on individuals as well - note that the West itself was not free of this historically; thus expectations that women would eventually be married, and that spinsters were somewhat odd. Men were often expected to take on their father's professions, and a variety of other mores which were based in a society where capital was mostly based out of land, limited centralization and a generally sedentary existence. Insofar as Confucianism's greatest weakness is that it also is not highly tailored for the migratory lives of moderns.

    It should not, then, be considered as a great surprise that atomization and individuality vastly accelerated in urbanized environments which removed the individual from his family and mores; it is not coincidental that the libertine and individualized 60s developed from the generation immediately after the great urbanization of the 40s. This evolved to what it is now where self-identity has actualized such that one can define himself as being of any gender or even species. As capital is no longer really provided by possession of land, values such as courage or territoriality are deemphasized for social "feminine" skills because objectively, the former are actually not longer as useful or profitable. You don't have to defend your cattle from rustlers anymore; you get rich by hobbling as many talented people and getting them to work together.

    The current state of anomie is tragic, but inevitable given the vast changes in society. Insofar as seemingly meaningless rituals go, they nonetheless have value in that their practice affirms a certain identity and sometimes are particularly valuable in that they are irrational. Catholicism, for example, insists that the spiritual quality of bread and wine turn into spiritual flesh and blood of the Savior, despite visual evidence otherwise. Nonetheless, through common agreement of this belief, it creates a certain bond and is useful social technology.

    It should not, then, be considered as a great surprise that atomization and individuality vastly accelerated in urbanized environments which removed the individual from his family and mores; …

    I don’t agree here. Agrarian America and the wide-open West of 250 – 100 years back were populated with some of the freest and most individualistic people, or families, that ever got to live in this world.

    It really helps having lots of space. Maybe Confucianism WAS best for China, since it has been a pretty crowded place for, like, forever. People don’t realize from a map or globe how little good usuable space there is. There are steep mountains all over the damn place.

    Catholicism, for example, insists that the spiritual quality of bread and wine turn into spiritual flesh and blood of the Savior, despite visual evidence otherwise. Nonetheless, through common agreement of this belief, it creates a certain bond and is useful social technology.

    People take Communion all over Latin America – it’s a ritual that makes life seem more stable, and the probably enjoy that. It doesn’t make them any better people though. That’s got to come from within.

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    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    I don’t agree here. Agrarian America and the wide-open West of 250 – 100 years back were populated with some of the freest and most individualistic people, or families, that ever got to live in this world.
     
    I think this was a kind of belief more than a reality; Jefferson was an excellent example of deeply wishing to maintain the rural nature of the country. But realistically, almost all major achievements came from the urban hubs in despite of the indelible cultural nature that the frontier provided. Industrialization is really an unstoppable force; the Civil War was a pretty solid exemplification of Northern industry.

    I don't disagree with the freedom in terms of either land or decentralization(I disagree that the individual was as free of his family* ), but I think its immaterial to today's world . Adam Smith believed that taxation beyond fifteen percent or so was impossible, for example, because taxation was in-kind at the time; centralization was just very hard to implement over any reasonable stretch. This is no longer the case. Space and distance have been abolished; capital is no longer generated by land in any significance and has not since the 30s.

    * Consider the highly collective nature of the Amish farmers, for example, who maintain many rituals from the past. One could even argue that modern individuality combined with high mobility is necessarily toxic to traditional living.

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  80. @J L
    As a Chinese, I do not think there is a need to try to correct other people's view of China. No matter how many years others study China, or live in China, they will not stop seeing China in their own culture perceptive, especially if the culture is white, western, or self-pronounced exceptionalists.

    As a Chinese, I use 1000s year old expressions to describe a situation, or understand a behavior, or explain a action in my everyday life.

    As a Chinese, I know my country's history regardless what any outsider trying to say about us. There are enough history books and virtues pass down to us, and we know who we are, good and bad.

    It is normal to catch negative attention when you break to front of pack. It makes all the victories much more precious.

    I don’t agree. There are a number of outsiders who have provided cogent awareness of China, for example, Richard McGregor. I think a lot of it comes down to attitude and a certain kind of personality; its tragic, perhaps, but it does seem that individuals who come in already with a basically “atheistic” personality will fit in and understand the most. I think he also grew up in various Asian countries for his entire life, so for him, the familiarity is almost innate.

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  81. J L says:
    @Achmed E. Newman
    1,000 year-old expressions can be just as wrong as something an unz commenter Tiny Duck wrote this morning. There's a matter of right and wrong, and that's the problem with Confucianism - it's all about getting along, knowing your place in life, etc. The Western way is, or was, when you are right, you're right - speak up, no matter if not 1 in 100 people agree with you.

    As a Chinese, I know my country’s history regardless what any outsider trying to say about us. There are enough history books and virtues pass down to us, and we know who we are, good and bad.
     
    You might, J.L., but I have met so many Chinese people that know nothing of their own history. Chairman Mao was responsible for a lot of that.

    but I have met so many Chinese people that know nothing of their own history. Chairman Mao was responsible for a lot of that.

    They do not know your western version of Chinese history….

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    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman

    They do not know your western version of Chinese history….
     
    It's not just that they don't know the truth, they don't know ANY version of it. That's what I just got done writing. No names, no dates or even decades, nothing. You people seem smart but are not often very wise. There is no point in talking to an older Chinese lady for advice anymore, like there was in the past. Just pure materialistic dingbattery is all you're gonna get.

    If you're gonna try, make sure she is really Chinese, while you're at it:


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsKpShq2X6s
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  82. @Achmed E. Newman
    You may have missed my last sentence, Daniel ("BTW, ...." ) at the bottom. I agree that there has been corruption at the top level in probably every government, with the US as no exception. I would point back to the railroad construction era for that. One thing to remember is that the bigger the government is, the more area of life and industry it's involved in, the more flavors of corruption you can have. Going back just a half-century or so, the biggest thing was probably the long-term Senators (esp. in the South) making sure the big military bases got placedthere, or never shut down when they should have been. It took lots of effort, you may recall from 20-30 years ago, to make impartial (ha! maybe?) base-closure committees to get rid of redundancies.

    This is what people never seem to get about Libertarianism. Smaller government doesn't allow as many areas of corruption, hence fewer opportunities for big money to influence the whole show. The problem with the big banks/banksters is the ultimate example of how, hand-in-hand, corrupt big money men and big gov can destroy a country completely - it's just not finished yet.

    High level corruption, even when it exists, is felt less and causes less discord than low-level corruption.
     
    Yes, I agree, and that was my point. The low-level everyday stuff is means a lack of any trust in society besides within the family. That's how it is in China. That's NOT how it was everywhere, and still is in some places, in America. I don't think it's really a good idea to import lots of people from place where there is no societal trust, do you?

    (I don't mean a few people here and there, as assimlation does work for numbers like, say, 100,000 newcomers a year that don't all go to Dearbornistan or Chinatown or Los Angeles.)

    Yes, I agree, and that was my point. The low-level everyday stuff is means a lack of any trust in society besides within the family. That’s how it is in China.

    Low level corruption is mostly gone these days by the time I last visited since 2015. A lot harder to give bribes when every most transactions are automatically monitored and the consequences of it is death, usually by “honor suicide.” The low levels of trust still exist but as it becomes unprofitable to be a pianzi, it’ll go away in a generation or so.

    To be honest, I’m a little bit saddened by some of it. The reason why I bring up mores is because I actually don’t believe that hongbao giving, which can be seen as corruption, or the system of mutual indebtedness was actually such a terrible thing in a world where people had to stay set. It very much created a sense of family and relates into guanxi. But as with many things, what works in the past may not work now.

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    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    Nah, having been to China and knowing some China-people pretty well, I beg to differ. One friend of a friend of mine makes his living just through one corrupt deal after the next. It's not big-time, but it's a living. The guy from the county gov. who is involved got sent away for 15 years. Because he still had lots of the money, that turned into a lot less.

    The entire "guanxi" concept is just corruption too, whether any government is involved or not. "I'll donate these ducks to your cause, so I may expect your wife to make sure my kid gets admitted to that school". There are whole webs of this stuff, and it's not going away. That's who they are.

    What makes guanxi corruption even though it is a long-established custom and is part of "the community" can be understood as seen in comparison to now-ancient America (albeit with faults): "Thanks for the chickens, but standards are standards, and your kid wasn't accepted." It's called integrity. Whatever you, or some nuts on unz, have bad to say against the British, the precursers to the first Americans, their respect for rule-of-law, honor, and integrity was a cut above the rest of the world.

    It's only a movie, Daniel, but check out <a href="http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0050212/"Bridge on the River Kwai sometimes. First of all, it's a great movie, but the beginning scene where the British Colonel, played by Alec Guiness, refuses to do work at the Jap prison camp with the enlisted men. It's not that he doesn't want to work; it's that it goes against the British protocol and "rules are rules, chaps". His insistence on this way, even though being locked up in the hot sun and beaten, showed his men that they were still British soldiers.

    (The American co-star, William Holden, was not a model of integrity, btw, but .... OK, no spoilers - go get it from the library for free!)
    , @Achmed E. Newman
    Another late reply, Daniel, but just a short story:

    A very religious lady (Christian) out west who we were acquainted with was "told by God" to go to China to help convert people to Christianity. She was a nice lady, but more important to this story, a baker by trade. All I had were (multiple) slices of raspberry cheesecake, and it was damn good, but her store made all kinds of great stuff.

    The family's (kids and all, including an adopted Chinese little girl) idea was to go to China, somewhere in Zhejang province outside of Shanghai, to open up a coffee shop. It would have baked goods that the Chinese hopefully would love (if they have any decent taste buds at all!). I remember that the husband was going to take some type of blue-collar job, while the woman would talk about Christianity to customers.

    They were not going to bribe anyone for whatever permits they would need to open the bakery. However, more than a whole year went by in China, they tried their best, but the shop was never allowed to open. This family had integrity, but OTOH, I guess not so many Chinese were converted.

    The family came back to America, having wasted that time, completely due to corruption, and probably the fact that the Chinese gov't doesn't cotton to religion.

    Now, you can get breaks from a guy from the city or country for whatever, here too, but I'll tell you this. If you are small time, but you push through the system, you can get things done here eventually, albeit probably with more stress, even if you never go through any dirty channels. You may have to threaten going over people's heads or even lawsuits, but you can get your way.
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  83. To speak of a “national psyche” nowadays, however, is to trespass into the minefield of Political Incorrectness. The Scots are mean, we used to say blithely; the French are arrogant; the Germans are orderly; the Italians, excitable; the Russians, gloomy; the Irish, pugnacious; and so on.

    Saying such things aloud in 2018 will get you horse-whipped on the steps of your club;

    That calls for prohibition of Tolstoy’s War and Peace, since he sure as hell did just that:

    “Pfuel was one of those hopelessly and immutably self-confident men, self-confident to the point of martyrdom as only Germans are, because only Germans are self-confident on the basis of an abstract notion- science, that is, the supposed knowledge of absolute truth. A Frenchman is self-assured because he regards himself personally, both in mind and body, as irresistibly attractive to men and women. An Englishman is self-assured, as being a citizen of the best-organized state in the world, and therefore as an Englishman always knows what he should do and knows that all he does as an Englishman is undoubtedly correct. An Italian is self-assured because he is excitable and easily forgets himself and other people. A Russian is self-assured just because he knows nothing does not want to know anything, since he does not believe that anything can be known. The German’s self-assurance is worst of all, stronger and more repulsive than any other, because he imagines that he knows the truth- science- which he himself has invented but which is for him the absolute truth.”(c)

    Leo Tolstoy, War and Peace, Book 3, Chapter X.

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  84. @Achmed E. Newman

    It should not, then, be considered as a great surprise that atomization and individuality vastly accelerated in urbanized environments which removed the individual from his family and mores; ...
     
    I don't agree here. Agrarian America and the wide-open West of 250 - 100 years back were populated with some of the freest and most individualistic people, or families, that ever got to live in this world.

    It really helps having lots of space. Maybe Confucianism WAS best for China, since it has been a pretty crowded place for, like, forever. People don't realize from a map or globe how little good usuable space there is. There are steep mountains all over the damn place.

    Catholicism, for example, insists that the spiritual quality of bread and wine turn into spiritual flesh and blood of the Savior, despite visual evidence otherwise. Nonetheless, through common agreement of this belief, it creates a certain bond and is useful social technology.
     
    People take Communion all over Latin America - it's a ritual that makes life seem more stable, and the probably enjoy that. It doesn't make them any better people though. That's got to come from within.

    I don’t agree here. Agrarian America and the wide-open West of 250 – 100 years back were populated with some of the freest and most individualistic people, or families, that ever got to live in this world.

    I think this was a kind of belief more than a reality; Jefferson was an excellent example of deeply wishing to maintain the rural nature of the country. But realistically, almost all major achievements came from the urban hubs in despite of the indelible cultural nature that the frontier provided. Industrialization is really an unstoppable force; the Civil War was a pretty solid exemplification of Northern industry.

    I don’t disagree with the freedom in terms of either land or decentralization(I disagree that the individual was as free of his family* ), but I think its immaterial to today’s world . Adam Smith believed that taxation beyond fifteen percent or so was impossible, for example, because taxation was in-kind at the time; centralization was just very hard to implement over any reasonable stretch. This is no longer the case. Space and distance have been abolished; capital is no longer generated by land in any significance and has not since the 30s.

    * Consider the highly collective nature of the Amish farmers, for example, who maintain many rituals from the past. One could even argue that modern individuality combined with high mobility is necessarily toxic to traditional living.

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    • Replies: @dfordoom

    One could even argue that modern individuality combined with high mobility is necessarily toxic to traditional living.
     
    I think that's almost certainly true.
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  85. @Daniel Chieh

    Yes, I agree, and that was my point. The low-level everyday stuff is means a lack of any trust in society besides within the family. That’s how it is in China.
     
    Low level corruption is mostly gone these days by the time I last visited since 2015. A lot harder to give bribes when every most transactions are automatically monitored and the consequences of it is death, usually by "honor suicide." The low levels of trust still exist but as it becomes unprofitable to be a pianzi, it'll go away in a generation or so.

    To be honest, I'm a little bit saddened by some of it. The reason why I bring up mores is because I actually don't believe that hongbao giving, which can be seen as corruption, or the system of mutual indebtedness was actually such a terrible thing in a world where people had to stay set. It very much created a sense of family and relates into guanxi. But as with many things, what works in the past may not work now.

    Nah, having been to China and knowing some China-people pretty well, I beg to differ. One friend of a friend of mine makes his living just through one corrupt deal after the next. It’s not big-time, but it’s a living. The guy from the county gov. who is involved got sent away for 15 years. Because he still had lots of the money, that turned into a lot less.

    The entire “guanxi” concept is just corruption too, whether any government is involved or not. “I’ll donate these ducks to your cause, so I may expect your wife to make sure my kid gets admitted to that school”. There are whole webs of this stuff, and it’s not going away. That’s who they are.

    What makes guanxi corruption even though it is a long-established custom and is part of “the community” can be understood as seen in comparison to now-ancient America (albeit with faults): “Thanks for the chickens, but standards are standards, and your kid wasn’t accepted.” It’s called integrity. Whatever you, or some nuts on unz, have bad to say against the British, the precursers to the first Americans, their respect for rule-of-law, honor, and integrity was a cut above the rest of the world.

    It’s only a movie, Daniel, but check out <a title=”"http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0050212/&quot;http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0050212/&quot;Bridge on the River Kwai sometimes. First of all, it’s a great movie, but the beginning scene where the British Colonel, played by Alec Guiness, refuses to do work at the Jap prison camp with the enlisted men. It’s not that he doesn’t want to work; it’s that it goes against the British protocol and “rules are rules, chaps”. His insistence on this way, even though being locked up in the hot sun and beaten, showed his men that they were still British soldiers.

    (The American co-star, William Holden, was not a model of integrity, btw, but …. OK, no spoilers – go get it from the library for free!)

    Read More
    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    oops, that link got munged up somehow. It looked good in PREVIEW mode.

    Bridge on the River Kwai
    , @Daniel Chieh

    The entire “guanxi” concept is just corruption too, whether any government is involved or not. “I’ll donate these ducks to your cause, so I may expect your wife to make sure my kid gets admitted to that school”. There are whole webs of this stuff, and it’s not going away. That’s who they are.

    What makes guanxi corruption even though it is a long-established custom and is part of “the community” can be understood as seen in comparison to now-ancient America (albeit with faults): “Thanks for the chickens, but standards are standards, and your kid wasn’t accepted.” It’s called integrity. Whatever you, or some nuts on unz, have bad to say against the British, the precursers to the first Americans, their respect for rule-of-law, honor, and integrity was a cut above the rest of the world.


     

    This I disagree with. I noted Lincoln's letter of recommendation earlier as an example otherwise. Is asking someone to give a job to a friend because his father died "in service of his country" not an example of nepotism? John Adams, one of the founders and presumably an excellent example of a citizen, avidly did everything he could to appoint his son JQ Adams into a diplomatic role to groom him for presidency(to his credit, Thomas Jefferson wrote a scathing letter about this). And of course, Andrew Jackson didn't get his idea of the "spoils system" from thin air; it was a norm where he came from.

    Mild nepotism to assist other men of "good breeding" was hardly unheard of and often seen as something positive; it was intimately tied with the Anglo class system as birth was seen as having positive qualities(which presumably justified bypassing standards) and having a patronage network to provide "letters of recommendation" was seen as a necessary means to gain admittance to college. There's a reason why standardized testing was adopted by the British from the Chinese, in an effort to increase meritocracy(which the Parliament dubbed at the time as "The Chinese Mandarin system").

    Nor did this go away even in recent history: Orwell went on a long, long diatribe about in his "Oh, Such Were the Joys" at the overall ridiculousness of it all: that men should be honored for having wealth, but only if they did not earn it through any sort of labor. Now Orwell appears to have a particularly bitter and unhappy school experience, but the perception was clearly there.

    At any rate, guanxi roughly is the same as a patronage network: it means "relationships" and essentially works around the idea of having fictive family. "Though we are not in fact blood-related, we will treat each other as family," but it does not necessarily mean that all standards are tossed aside. It simply means that there's an extended web of trust within that, which helps insulate against the larger network without trust. It means that you would ask within them first for which doctors are valuable, and your friends will check first to let you know if there are job openings in their company.

    Is this a form of corruption? Probably. Is this that harmful when not in excess? I have my doubts. Patronage networks exist in Japan(hugely) and Singapore as well; but it has not extended to low level corruption across the board.

    Nah, having been to China and knowing some China-people pretty well, I beg to differ.
     

    I think that anyone who said "having been to American and knowing some American-people pretty well" would only have a partial impression of America.
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  86. @J L

    but I have met so many Chinese people that know nothing of their own history. Chairman Mao was responsible for a lot of that.
     
    They do not know your western version of Chinese history....

    They do not know your western version of Chinese history….

    It’s not just that they don’t know the truth, they don’t know ANY version of it. That’s what I just got done writing. No names, no dates or even decades, nothing. You people seem smart but are not often very wise. There is no point in talking to an older Chinese lady for advice anymore, like there was in the past. Just pure materialistic dingbattery is all you’re gonna get.

    If you’re gonna try, make sure she is really Chinese, while you’re at it:

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  87. @Achmed E. Newman
    Nah, having been to China and knowing some China-people pretty well, I beg to differ. One friend of a friend of mine makes his living just through one corrupt deal after the next. It's not big-time, but it's a living. The guy from the county gov. who is involved got sent away for 15 years. Because he still had lots of the money, that turned into a lot less.

    The entire "guanxi" concept is just corruption too, whether any government is involved or not. "I'll donate these ducks to your cause, so I may expect your wife to make sure my kid gets admitted to that school". There are whole webs of this stuff, and it's not going away. That's who they are.

    What makes guanxi corruption even though it is a long-established custom and is part of "the community" can be understood as seen in comparison to now-ancient America (albeit with faults): "Thanks for the chickens, but standards are standards, and your kid wasn't accepted." It's called integrity. Whatever you, or some nuts on unz, have bad to say against the British, the precursers to the first Americans, their respect for rule-of-law, honor, and integrity was a cut above the rest of the world.

    It's only a movie, Daniel, but check out <a href="http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0050212/"Bridge on the River Kwai sometimes. First of all, it's a great movie, but the beginning scene where the British Colonel, played by Alec Guiness, refuses to do work at the Jap prison camp with the enlisted men. It's not that he doesn't want to work; it's that it goes against the British protocol and "rules are rules, chaps". His insistence on this way, even though being locked up in the hot sun and beaten, showed his men that they were still British soldiers.

    (The American co-star, William Holden, was not a model of integrity, btw, but .... OK, no spoilers - go get it from the library for free!)

    oops, that link got munged up somehow. It looked good in PREVIEW mode.

    Bridge on the River Kwai

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  88. A vintage Derb. Classic. I would add only that I think “Oriental” (including Muslims) mind has not developed self-critique. It remains strongly collectivist & unaware of its shadow, to use a Jungian term.
    I know it is one of those generalizations that are impossible to prove, but ….

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    • Replies: @John Derbyshire
    Bardon:

    Thanks. This is my forte. I've read (a) well-nigh every book written by foreigners about China, and (b) much of what the Chinese have written about themselves (yes, including this one).

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  89. @Achmed E. Newman
    Nah, having been to China and knowing some China-people pretty well, I beg to differ. One friend of a friend of mine makes his living just through one corrupt deal after the next. It's not big-time, but it's a living. The guy from the county gov. who is involved got sent away for 15 years. Because he still had lots of the money, that turned into a lot less.

    The entire "guanxi" concept is just corruption too, whether any government is involved or not. "I'll donate these ducks to your cause, so I may expect your wife to make sure my kid gets admitted to that school". There are whole webs of this stuff, and it's not going away. That's who they are.

    What makes guanxi corruption even though it is a long-established custom and is part of "the community" can be understood as seen in comparison to now-ancient America (albeit with faults): "Thanks for the chickens, but standards are standards, and your kid wasn't accepted." It's called integrity. Whatever you, or some nuts on unz, have bad to say against the British, the precursers to the first Americans, their respect for rule-of-law, honor, and integrity was a cut above the rest of the world.

    It's only a movie, Daniel, but check out <a href="http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0050212/"Bridge on the River Kwai sometimes. First of all, it's a great movie, but the beginning scene where the British Colonel, played by Alec Guiness, refuses to do work at the Jap prison camp with the enlisted men. It's not that he doesn't want to work; it's that it goes against the British protocol and "rules are rules, chaps". His insistence on this way, even though being locked up in the hot sun and beaten, showed his men that they were still British soldiers.

    (The American co-star, William Holden, was not a model of integrity, btw, but .... OK, no spoilers - go get it from the library for free!)

    The entire “guanxi” concept is just corruption too, whether any government is involved or not. “I’ll donate these ducks to your cause, so I may expect your wife to make sure my kid gets admitted to that school”. There are whole webs of this stuff, and it’s not going away. That’s who they are.

    What makes guanxi corruption even though it is a long-established custom and is part of “the community” can be understood as seen in comparison to now-ancient America (albeit with faults): “Thanks for the chickens, but standards are standards, and your kid wasn’t accepted.” It’s called integrity. Whatever you, or some nuts on unz, have bad to say against the British, the precursers to the first Americans, their respect for rule-of-law, honor, and integrity was a cut above the rest of the world.

    This I disagree with. I noted Lincoln’s letter of recommendation earlier as an example otherwise. Is asking someone to give a job to a friend because his father died “in service of his country” not an example of nepotism? John Adams, one of the founders and presumably an excellent example of a citizen, avidly did everything he could to appoint his son JQ Adams into a diplomatic role to groom him for presidency(to his credit, Thomas Jefferson wrote a scathing letter about this). And of course, Andrew Jackson didn’t get his idea of the “spoils system” from thin air; it was a norm where he came from.

    Mild nepotism to assist other men of “good breeding” was hardly unheard of and often seen as something positive; it was intimately tied with the Anglo class system as birth was seen as having positive qualities(which presumably justified bypassing standards) and having a patronage network to provide “letters of recommendation” was seen as a necessary means to gain admittance to college. There’s a reason why standardized testing was adopted by the British from the Chinese, in an effort to increase meritocracy(which the Parliament dubbed at the time as “The Chinese Mandarin system”).

    Nor did this go away even in recent history: Orwell went on a long, long diatribe about in his “Oh, Such Were the Joys” at the overall ridiculousness of it all: that men should be honored for having wealth, but only if they did not earn it through any sort of labor. Now Orwell appears to have a particularly bitter and unhappy school experience, but the perception was clearly there.

    At any rate, guanxi roughly is the same as a patronage network: it means “relationships” and essentially works around the idea of having fictive family. “Though we are not in fact blood-related, we will treat each other as family,” but it does not necessarily mean that all standards are tossed aside. It simply means that there’s an extended web of trust within that, which helps insulate against the larger network without trust. It means that you would ask within them first for which doctors are valuable, and your friends will check first to let you know if there are job openings in their company.

    Is this a form of corruption? Probably. Is this that harmful when not in excess? I have my doubts. Patronage networks exist in Japan(hugely) and Singapore as well; but it has not extended to low level corruption across the board.

    Nah, having been to China and knowing some China-people pretty well, I beg to differ.

    I think that anyone who said “having been to American and knowing some American-people pretty well” would only have a partial impression of America.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    I think that anyone who said “having been to American and knowing some American-people pretty well” would only have a partial impression of America.

     

    Indeed, to add to that - one of my best friends is an American who lived in a small town and described it as hellhole filled with meth dealers and hopelessness with deeply corrupt police.

    This is true - for him, and indeed accurately captures a certain (very limited) portion of America. But it would be a poor and not very useful perspective of America as a whole, and indeed, would provide very little information on the actual driving political or capital forces in the US(which, for better or worse, do not come from a small rural towns in TN).
    , @Wizard of Oz
    Thank you for your levelheaded and knowledgeable contributions. I think you made a comment on Chinese voting patterns in Australia. I hope it is a sign that my hoped for future is on track. Australia, I trust, avoids importing cheap labor - in line with the Labor Party's union origins which was the main reason for the White Australia policy till about 1966 - as it doesn't need it for its largescale mining and ag businesses or, yet, aged care and should be able to count on its prosperous Chinese 4 or 5 per cent and - only lagging a little - a similar proportion of subcontintentals to counteract the cynical left votebuyers of the now corrupted still union owned Labor Party and the mad rentseeking, largely publicly employed Greens. Unfortunately Australia can afford many years of lower productivity than it needs to be under a professional politicians' régime. I suspect I am ceasing to call myself a liberal democrat.....
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  90. @Daniel Chieh

    The entire “guanxi” concept is just corruption too, whether any government is involved or not. “I’ll donate these ducks to your cause, so I may expect your wife to make sure my kid gets admitted to that school”. There are whole webs of this stuff, and it’s not going away. That’s who they are.

    What makes guanxi corruption even though it is a long-established custom and is part of “the community” can be understood as seen in comparison to now-ancient America (albeit with faults): “Thanks for the chickens, but standards are standards, and your kid wasn’t accepted.” It’s called integrity. Whatever you, or some nuts on unz, have bad to say against the British, the precursers to the first Americans, their respect for rule-of-law, honor, and integrity was a cut above the rest of the world.


     

    This I disagree with. I noted Lincoln's letter of recommendation earlier as an example otherwise. Is asking someone to give a job to a friend because his father died "in service of his country" not an example of nepotism? John Adams, one of the founders and presumably an excellent example of a citizen, avidly did everything he could to appoint his son JQ Adams into a diplomatic role to groom him for presidency(to his credit, Thomas Jefferson wrote a scathing letter about this). And of course, Andrew Jackson didn't get his idea of the "spoils system" from thin air; it was a norm where he came from.

    Mild nepotism to assist other men of "good breeding" was hardly unheard of and often seen as something positive; it was intimately tied with the Anglo class system as birth was seen as having positive qualities(which presumably justified bypassing standards) and having a patronage network to provide "letters of recommendation" was seen as a necessary means to gain admittance to college. There's a reason why standardized testing was adopted by the British from the Chinese, in an effort to increase meritocracy(which the Parliament dubbed at the time as "The Chinese Mandarin system").

    Nor did this go away even in recent history: Orwell went on a long, long diatribe about in his "Oh, Such Were the Joys" at the overall ridiculousness of it all: that men should be honored for having wealth, but only if they did not earn it through any sort of labor. Now Orwell appears to have a particularly bitter and unhappy school experience, but the perception was clearly there.

    At any rate, guanxi roughly is the same as a patronage network: it means "relationships" and essentially works around the idea of having fictive family. "Though we are not in fact blood-related, we will treat each other as family," but it does not necessarily mean that all standards are tossed aside. It simply means that there's an extended web of trust within that, which helps insulate against the larger network without trust. It means that you would ask within them first for which doctors are valuable, and your friends will check first to let you know if there are job openings in their company.

    Is this a form of corruption? Probably. Is this that harmful when not in excess? I have my doubts. Patronage networks exist in Japan(hugely) and Singapore as well; but it has not extended to low level corruption across the board.

    Nah, having been to China and knowing some China-people pretty well, I beg to differ.
     

    I think that anyone who said "having been to American and knowing some American-people pretty well" would only have a partial impression of America.

    I think that anyone who said “having been to American and knowing some American-people pretty well” would only have a partial impression of America.

    Indeed, to add to that – one of my best friends is an American who lived in a small town and described it as hellhole filled with meth dealers and hopelessness with deeply corrupt police.

    This is true – for him, and indeed accurately captures a certain (very limited) portion of America. But it would be a poor and not very useful perspective of America as a whole, and indeed, would provide very little information on the actual driving political or capital forces in the US(which, for better or worse, do not come from a small rural towns in TN).

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  91. Weaver1 says:
    @Realist
    I agree, but it boils down to lost of pride in self.

    Oh, ty. Sorry to have wasted your time then.

    I used to could get people into debates with just that much, but now the only debates I seem to get into are over misunderstandings.

    I tend to reduce things to *loss of piety*, but I guess it’s the content not the representative term that matters.

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  92. Weaver1 says:
    @neutral

    but Jewish rule doesn’t entirely explain the decline of the West
     
    It explains the parts that matter the most. WW2 was a battle between who should rule, which sadly the jews won. The rest that came after was simply the jews imposing their will on anything that still dares challenge their authority.

    OK, in a theoretical poli sci debate I’d agree: who rules is what matters.

    But there’s danger in oversimplification. Other lessons should be learned also, such as why powerful Europeans didn’t advance their interests. Part of Jewish power is in how Jews currently advocate for their interests and work together as a group while white Gentiles currently do not.

    My fear is we’ll repeat some of the same mistakes again or we’ll view NS Germany as the alternative, rather than keeping an open mind. NS Germany was too managerial (I mean roughly too centralised) and too progressive. I know little of NS Germany, but it seems to me too modern.

    Also, I don’t believe Jewish power was as dominant then as it is today. I’m not a believer it was only Jews who pushed us into WWII. Never underestimate English ineptitude. And I’m of colonial British descent (half English, half Scot, roughly). The English didn’t appreciate the unique Bolshevik danger. They should have seen the Russians as the greater threat.

    In elite theory, elites drive the world. But I believe elite theory can be misunderstood. There are many elites, and they are disunited. Also, there are unintended consequences, “fate” (sheer luck).

    Read More
    • Replies: @dfordoom

    Part of Jewish power is in how Jews currently advocate for their interests and work together as a group while white Gentiles currently do not.
     
    Because white gentiles are not a group in any meaningful sense.

    To be a group you need a shared culture, a shared history, ties of kinship, a sense of community. An ethnicity can be a group in that sense, but white gentiles is too broad to have any meaning for anybody.

    You're also overlooking class. Elites most definitely have a sense of themselves as a coherent group with a shared culture. Elites definitely work together as a group. And it makes no difference if they're Jewish or non-Jewish, what matters is class. Elites have an intense sense of class consciousness.

    Non-elite whites have no class consciousness. That's why they get screwed.
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  93. Yee says:

    Well, “what’s wrong with China”?

    This topic is so very old that 100 years ago Chinese intellectuals wrote countless articles about it. Just go and translate some early 20th century articles from Chinese, they’re way better than some inapt Whites.

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  94. Yee says:

    Oh, and many of the problems we had 100 years ago have been solved, so I’m optimistic the rest will be solved in due time. Don’t worry.

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  95. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Jason Liu
    ‎✓ Disgruntled expat masking hurt feelings with cultural criticism
    ‎✓ Information drawn from outdated 1920s missionary stereotypes
    ‎✓ Unironic reference to Ralph Townsend
    ‎✓ Taiwan as a stepping stone for hating the mainland
    ‎✓ Someone screwed me in business now I hate China

    The only thing missing from Midler's resume is "ESL teacher"

    Listen, Chinese people are perfectly aware of Chinese society's shortcomings. The "Ugly Chinaman" trope -- deceit, corner-cutting, greed, face-saving, dog-eat-dog mentality that all stem from excessive materialism -- has been described in some form by Chinese commentators since at least the 13th century.

    Chinese people, including me, are often critical of these issues in private, but less so to foreigners. China has always been a harsh, densely populated rat race where being moral puts you at a disadvantage. I'm sorry a lot of foreigners didn't know this going in, but people aren't going to become nicer until there is a substantial period of wealth and higher living standards, like in Taiwan or Singapore. We don't need any more assblasted expats feeling bitter about every single thing in China. People like Midler writing this in 2018 should realize that this is the era when China finally starts transitioning to a nicer place.

    As for politics, I'm not convinced liberal democracy is a superior system, or even a lasting one. Even accounting for potential tyrants, the authoritarian state is still better equipped to rapidly and decisively deal with existential threats to the nation, especially internal ones. Equality other than basic legal protections is not desirable at all. Universal suffrage is the dumbest idea in the history of political thought. Freedom is hardly the most important thing in society, and even then most Chinese people do not feel unfree, because most people in any society don't intend on being dissidents. The major gripe about freedoms in China is not about any particular political topic, but rather the internet blocking of foreign sites that hold entertainment value (Youtube, Instagram, etc).

    I agree that Chinese nationalism can be arrogant and hypersensitive. Angry nationalists should tone it down and ask whether or not hating some other country/group actually benefits China. Most of the hate directed at our neighbors is pointless, counterproductive, just pride for the sake of pride. However, after living in the west, I firmly believe that nationalism is basically a positive thing for humanity, despite its excesses. Tribal feeling and the friendly competition that results is the greatest engine of true progress ever known. Given a choice between the west's self-loathing "open society" and China's current system, I'd pick the nationalist autocracy any day.

    Universal suffrage is the dumbest idea in the history of political thought. Freedom is hardly the most important thing in society

    A lot of people in the West (in fact almost everyone in the West) have this crazy idea that democracy and freedom are the same thing. They aren’t. In fact it could be argued that democracy is the mortal enemy of freedom (and I suspect most of America’s Founding Fathers would agree).

    Democracies inevitably end up being more repressive than authoritarian regimes, because dissent is a greater threat in a democracy. Authoritarian regimes impose limits on what you can do. Liberal democracies seek to impose limits on what you can think.

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  96. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Realist
    "What’s wrong with us?"

    No pride in self.

    The Holocaust is a tremendous black mark against western civilisation. It’s the worst crime in recorded history and invalidates any western pretensions of superiority over anyone else.

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    • LOL: Alden
    • Replies: @Realist
    "It’s the worst crime in recorded history and invalidates any western pretensions of superiority over anyone else."

    Getting a little overwrought....hey?
    Tend to exaggerate....hey?
    How about Stalin and Mao????
    , @Alden
    The worst crime in western history was the Jewish communist holomodor, gulag and other vicious things the Jews did to destroy Russia and Central Europe.

    Affirmative action is the second most eeee vvviiii lllll thing that has ever happened in the history of the earth.

    The third most evil affront to the eye is those god awful hideous 99 cent store looking white vertical blinds in residential housing. Offices are where we suffer all day to earn a living. So those supremely ugly vertical blinds are ok because work is horrible anyway.

    But what possessed contractors and landlords and sellers to put those horrible things in homes and apartments? Who invented those horrors? De debbil made dem do it.

    Drab beige, gray and mud green carpet and furnishings combined with White walls is the 4th most evil thing that has ever happened.

    Beets and eggplant and slimy artificial meat Subway sandwiches should be added to things that should not exist.
    , @Ace
    The Soviet holocaust was indeed terrible but it wasn't a black mark against Western civilization. The ultra left have despised it root and branch and worshipped power and every form of lunacy. It's the sick pretensions of the left that have been invalidated.

    And who were and are the left?
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  97. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Duke of Qin
    The warring states period was by comparison quite pacific and orderly. All of the states were the ducal heirs of the kingdom of Zhou and shared an overarching monoculture. Like the city states of ancient Greece or the German principalities of medieval Europe, they were politically fragmented but shared the same values and customs.

    The modern world is on the other hand a wild dangerous place, filled with wildly different peoples and sundry barbarians with grossly different values. I would be more positive if I thought the Chinese race were stronger, but we aren't. Unlike the undomesticated negro with his raw strength who overawes all peoples with his presence, the cunning Jew who is able to subvert others to his cause, the wild eyed Mohammedan with his unrelenting faith, or the Hindu who is a combination of the (worst) traits of Jew and Mussalman, or even the nihilistic hypocritical European driven by the desire to see his own race destroyed and everyone else along with it, the Chinese are socially a weak people. We are meek, passive, lacking in assabiyah, and just all around too domesticated to survive in a war of all against all that modern "liberal" societies seek to create. Compared to the warring states of old where defeat meant you paid your taxes to one Duke as opposed to another, defeat now means your racial annihilation and debasement. Our one redeeming feature is our state, a government ruled at the top by flinty eyed bastards thoroughly opposed to a liberal world order. That they can and do use the state to crushing effect to protect our race against the outside is a "feature" not bug that Western liberals seek to undermine at every opportunity.

    This is where I heartily disagree, the best way to safeguard the Chinese now, as then, is heavily armed isolationism. Triple the defense budget, more nukes, ships, more jets and zero emigration or immigration. Basically buy our shit, stay out, and leave us the hell alone, a historically relevant policy worth emulating.

    This is where I heartily disagree, the best way to safeguard the Chinese now, as then, is heavily armed isolationism. Triple the defense budget, more nukes, ships, more jets and zero emigration or immigration. Basically buy our shit, stay out, and leave us the hell alone, a historically relevant policy worth emulating.

    Sounds sensible to me. If every country took such a position we’d have a much better world. There’s a great deal to be said for nations minding their own business.

    That’s why I think Australia made a huge mistake in not developing its own nuclear deterrent, back in the days when we were still an industrialised nation. If other nations don’t want to mind their own business nukes are the only viable way of persuading them to do so.

    China is certainly going to need a much stronger military. The U.S. will not tolerate the existence of any alternative worldview or political system. The only way to persuade the U.S. to do so is to make sure they know what the consequences of interference will be.

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    • Replies: @Hker
    I doubt the hicks in Australia, with a population of 20m can produce a nuclear bomb nowadays , you can't even produce your own phone..go back to digging the earth or chasing cattle for the Chinese. Australia should have been colonise by China or Japan long ago...the isolationism, pacifism and an insular outlook only works until some white neanderthal is knocking on your door with technology you invented ( gunpowder). Australians needs to be handled in the same way the indigenous aborigines were cleansed, A taste of their own medicine. Asia for Asians. China needs to actively engage the other races as it is doing and with our superior IQ and number dictate the next tides in history
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  98. denk says:
    @njguy73
    A question for John Derbyshire, or anyone who would know:

    The U.S. apologized for slavery. Britain apologized to Kenya, Belgium apologized to the Congo. Germany took responsibility for the Holocaust, Japan apologized for Nanking.

    Has China ever done anything warranting an apology? And if so, did one come forth?

    If not, is the world ready for a superpower with no sense of responsibility?

    If not, is the world ready for a superpower with no sense of responsibility?

    Do the Chinese a favor kid, they loathes this label of ‘superpower‘, to them its nothing but a target painted on their back, a red flag to the murkkan bull !

    What might your idea of a ‘responsible’ superpower be,
    the one where 95% of the populace support bombing a country called…
    Agrabah ??

    https://johnmenadue.com/john-menadue-we-are-in-denial-about-the-risks-in-our-relationship-with-the-united-states-part-1-of-2/

    buahahahahah

    Read More
    • Replies: @njguy73
    You're right. The U.S. may have once displayed responsibility as a superpower, but no longer does. And will lose that status.
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  99. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Realist
    I agree, but it boils down to lost of pride in self.

    I agree, but it boils down to lost of pride in self.

    Or too much pride. Too much self-righteousness, too much of a busybody attitude, too little willingness to admit the possibility of being mistaken, too little respect for others. Too much narcissism. That’s the modern West, and that’s especially the U.S.

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  100. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Daniel Chieh

    I don’t agree here. Agrarian America and the wide-open West of 250 – 100 years back were populated with some of the freest and most individualistic people, or families, that ever got to live in this world.
     
    I think this was a kind of belief more than a reality; Jefferson was an excellent example of deeply wishing to maintain the rural nature of the country. But realistically, almost all major achievements came from the urban hubs in despite of the indelible cultural nature that the frontier provided. Industrialization is really an unstoppable force; the Civil War was a pretty solid exemplification of Northern industry.

    I don't disagree with the freedom in terms of either land or decentralization(I disagree that the individual was as free of his family* ), but I think its immaterial to today's world . Adam Smith believed that taxation beyond fifteen percent or so was impossible, for example, because taxation was in-kind at the time; centralization was just very hard to implement over any reasonable stretch. This is no longer the case. Space and distance have been abolished; capital is no longer generated by land in any significance and has not since the 30s.

    * Consider the highly collective nature of the Amish farmers, for example, who maintain many rituals from the past. One could even argue that modern individuality combined with high mobility is necessarily toxic to traditional living.

    One could even argue that modern individuality combined with high mobility is necessarily toxic to traditional living.

    I think that’s almost certainly true.

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  101. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Weaver1
    OK, in a theoretical poli sci debate I'd agree: who rules is what matters.

    But there's danger in oversimplification. Other lessons should be learned also, such as why powerful Europeans didn't advance their interests. Part of Jewish power is in how Jews currently advocate for their interests and work together as a group while white Gentiles currently do not.

    My fear is we'll repeat some of the same mistakes again or we'll view NS Germany as the alternative, rather than keeping an open mind. NS Germany was too managerial (I mean roughly too centralised) and too progressive. I know little of NS Germany, but it seems to me too modern.

    Also, I don't believe Jewish power was as dominant then as it is today. I'm not a believer it was only Jews who pushed us into WWII. Never underestimate English ineptitude. And I'm of colonial British descent (half English, half Scot, roughly). The English didn't appreciate the unique Bolshevik danger. They should have seen the Russians as the greater threat.

    In elite theory, elites drive the world. But I believe elite theory can be misunderstood. There are many elites, and they are disunited. Also, there are unintended consequences, "fate" (sheer luck).

    Part of Jewish power is in how Jews currently advocate for their interests and work together as a group while white Gentiles currently do not.

    Because white gentiles are not a group in any meaningful sense.

    To be a group you need a shared culture, a shared history, ties of kinship, a sense of community. An ethnicity can be a group in that sense, but white gentiles is too broad to have any meaning for anybody.

    You’re also overlooking class. Elites most definitely have a sense of themselves as a coherent group with a shared culture. Elites definitely work together as a group. And it makes no difference if they’re Jewish or non-Jewish, what matters is class. Elites have an intense sense of class consciousness.

    Non-elite whites have no class consciousness. That’s why they get screwed.

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    • Replies: @Weaver1
    Class matters. It doesn't matter to me, but it matters.

    Being Jewish also matters. It's clear many of these secular Jews are sympathetic to Israel, and it's natural that Jews would work comfortably together.

    One way Judaism matters is as TS Eliot warned: They identify neither as European nor as Christian. As such, secular Jews are less likely to conserve the West. So, it isn't necessarily an intentional "Jews vs. West" situation but rather that secular Jews tend to go "Far Left", so to speak.

    Mormonism also seems to be relevant.

    I'm open-minded. I believe it's easy to err on this topic.

    If pursuing certain political changes, then elites, even Jewish elites, shouldn't be able to abuse the system. I generally want to shrink the super wealthy, shrink large corporations, shrink big government. And I want to empower the middle class. That's not all I'd change, but that gives an idea of my positioning.

    I view such changes as a sort of struggle among elites. If greater power were given to the middle class, I believe it would be an improvement. I'm not seeking utopia.

    But Judaism, as well as Mormonism and likely other groups, has been significant. Sam Francis wrote the following (which is actually still available online!):

    "If we are looking for the sources of the collective consciousness of “sins” such as “racism,” “sexism,” etc. and the systematic, politically enforced reconfiguration of American society, then the Jewish role in promoting racial egalitarianism, promoting feminism and subverting male social roles, instilling collective guilt, promoting mass immigration, and pushing multiculturalism (through Franz Boas and his disciples in anthropology, the civil rights movement, Freudian psychoanalysis, the Frankfurt School, any number of Marxist and New Left movements, Jewish feminist ideologues like Betty Friedan, Gloria Steinem, and Susan Sontag, pro- immigration lobbying by Jewish “public interest” groups and individual political figures, and the major architect of multiculturalism, Horace Kallen, not to mention the largely Jewish “neo-conservatism” of recent years) can hardly be ignored. Gottfried, however, does ignore it almost entirely, though he gives a casual and not very complimentary nod to Kevin MacDonald’s work, which he characterizes in a footnote as “methodologically uneven but occasionally illuminating.” (p. 42, n. 5; and see also p. 15, n. 21"

    I like to add Frank Meyers to the list. His "Fusionism" was harmful, in my view. Essentially Meyers "fused" traditional conservatism with libertarianism such that... only the libertarian remained. And a great weakness of the Right has been its ideological fanaticism and Pavlovian tendency to see any deviation from the market cult as "socialism".

    Rothbard supposedly is a positive influence (I haven't read much by him). Stephen Miller is the latest Jewish conservative, and he seems to be quite the conservative. Marcus Epstein was once condemned as a "white supremacist" (obviously he's not) for being a man of character. The Antiwar website is supposedly very Jewish. I think there's a Jewish guy at VDARE? So, we have lots of "good Jews". It would be interesting to see the topic explored further. Dr. MacDonald once wrote how Jews in the US South fought for the South, were thus patriotic. So, there is a counter-narrative.

    Again, I'm a colonial Brit, and supposedly the British Empire did plenty of harm. And my state voluntarily embraced slavery. So, I can't blame everything on Jews. But it is noteworthy how very powerful Jews are today.

    Great potential energy existed which was taken advantage of (not only by Jews). Richard Weaver, for example, warned how those who helped build the bombs used on Nagasaki and Hiroshima didn't necessarily know what they were a part of. And he condemned "The Great Stereopticon" of mass media. These are societal weaknesses, potential energy, potential abuse.

    And regardless of who is in charge, such structures render a people little more than malleable, interchangeable, oblivious cattle. In short, it's slavery; The managerial state is slavery. I value hierarchy, obviously (as does most anyone on the Right); but "hierarchy" needn't mean enslavement.
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  102. @Jason Liu
    ‎✓ Disgruntled expat masking hurt feelings with cultural criticism
    ‎✓ Information drawn from outdated 1920s missionary stereotypes
    ‎✓ Unironic reference to Ralph Townsend
    ‎✓ Taiwan as a stepping stone for hating the mainland
    ‎✓ Someone screwed me in business now I hate China

    The only thing missing from Midler's resume is "ESL teacher"

    Listen, Chinese people are perfectly aware of Chinese society's shortcomings. The "Ugly Chinaman" trope -- deceit, corner-cutting, greed, face-saving, dog-eat-dog mentality that all stem from excessive materialism -- has been described in some form by Chinese commentators since at least the 13th century.

    Chinese people, including me, are often critical of these issues in private, but less so to foreigners. China has always been a harsh, densely populated rat race where being moral puts you at a disadvantage. I'm sorry a lot of foreigners didn't know this going in, but people aren't going to become nicer until there is a substantial period of wealth and higher living standards, like in Taiwan or Singapore. We don't need any more assblasted expats feeling bitter about every single thing in China. People like Midler writing this in 2018 should realize that this is the era when China finally starts transitioning to a nicer place.

    As for politics, I'm not convinced liberal democracy is a superior system, or even a lasting one. Even accounting for potential tyrants, the authoritarian state is still better equipped to rapidly and decisively deal with existential threats to the nation, especially internal ones. Equality other than basic legal protections is not desirable at all. Universal suffrage is the dumbest idea in the history of political thought. Freedom is hardly the most important thing in society, and even then most Chinese people do not feel unfree, because most people in any society don't intend on being dissidents. The major gripe about freedoms in China is not about any particular political topic, but rather the internet blocking of foreign sites that hold entertainment value (Youtube, Instagram, etc).

    I agree that Chinese nationalism can be arrogant and hypersensitive. Angry nationalists should tone it down and ask whether or not hating some other country/group actually benefits China. Most of the hate directed at our neighbors is pointless, counterproductive, just pride for the sake of pride. However, after living in the west, I firmly believe that nationalism is basically a positive thing for humanity, despite its excesses. Tribal feeling and the friendly competition that results is the greatest engine of true progress ever known. Given a choice between the west's self-loathing "open society" and China's current system, I'd pick the nationalist autocracy any day.

    This is a great thread, with a high level of thoughtful comment, far above the “We good, they bad” level that informs way too much cultural commentary in BOTH China and the West. Thanks to all who are contributing.

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  103. Hker says:
    @dfordoom

    This is where I heartily disagree, the best way to safeguard the Chinese now, as then, is heavily armed isolationism. Triple the defense budget, more nukes, ships, more jets and zero emigration or immigration. Basically buy our shit, stay out, and leave us the hell alone, a historically relevant policy worth emulating.
     
    Sounds sensible to me. If every country took such a position we'd have a much better world. There's a great deal to be said for nations minding their own business.

    That's why I think Australia made a huge mistake in not developing its own nuclear deterrent, back in the days when we were still an industrialised nation. If other nations don't want to mind their own business nukes are the only viable way of persuading them to do so.

    China is certainly going to need a much stronger military. The U.S. will not tolerate the existence of any alternative worldview or political system. The only way to persuade the U.S. to do so is to make sure they know what the consequences of interference will be.

    I doubt the hicks in Australia, with a population of 20m can produce a nuclear bomb nowadays , you can’t even produce your own phone..go back to digging the earth or chasing cattle for the Chinese. Australia should have been colonise by China or Japan long ago…the isolationism, pacifism and an insular outlook only works until some white neanderthal is knocking on your door with technology you invented ( gunpowder). Australians needs to be handled in the same way the indigenous aborigines were cleansed, A taste of their own medicine. Asia for Asians. China needs to actively engage the other races as it is doing and with our superior IQ and number dictate the next tides in history

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  104. @Achmed E. Newman
    I learned a lot from this column (sounds like a school book report, haha). I know about modern China, have read lots about the Mao era and some about the Japan/WWII/Civil War era too. However, the history reviewed here may have enlightened me on the Chinese mindset. I'd always though, and still question, whether the extreme discouragement of religion, or I should say, "other religions" by Communism DID still change the "psyche" somewhat.

    The Chinese Taoism, Confucianism, and Buddhism were never, I guess, taken as seriously as Christianity in the West and Islam in the, umm, hellholes. However, it was a part of their culture. Right now, nothing of that is taken seriously, as even the money burned during the tomb-sweeping day is fake. I asked a Chinawoman, "if you believe burning that cash is gonna help your late Mom, why don't you all burn the real stuff - I'd love to burn me some Chairman Mao."

    No, there is no belief left, in all of the people I've met. Don't you think 30-odd years of hard-core Communism changed a bit of this, Mr. Derbyshire? I'm just asking - as you are the expert - not being snarky at all, if you can believe that(!)

    Achmed:

    Deep waters here. I recommend Prof. LaFleur’s lectures on the Analects of Confucius. Executive summary: commentator “Duke of Qin” is more or less right.

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    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    Yeah, couldn't pull it up on this ole-timey browser due to https, but I'll look at it on another device later on. Thank you.
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  105. @njguy73
    A question for John Derbyshire, or anyone who would know:

    The U.S. apologized for slavery. Britain apologized to Kenya, Belgium apologized to the Congo. Germany took responsibility for the Holocaust, Japan apologized for Nanking.

    Has China ever done anything warranting an apology? And if so, did one come forth?

    If not, is the world ready for a superpower with no sense of responsibility?

    Paul Midler discusses this in his excellent book. Will (for example) China Apologize for the hundreds of foreigners cruelly massacred in the Boxer rebellion? Don’t hold your breath.

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    • Replies: @njguy73
    Derb, this is why I read whatever you post.
    , @llloyd
    They have no memory of it as least from my experience. They made the N Z Government apologise for restrictions on Chinese immigration in the nineteenth century. To say anything about the hypocrisy is hate speech.
    , @Joe Wong
    Those Gweilo killed in the Boxer movement were fanatic cult inquisitors, human right violators, and culture genocide prosecutors. They were criminals using extraterritorial rights to steal and loot lands and properties in China with impunity, they were kidnapping, snatching and spiriting away Chinese women and kids to become church slaves to be abused sexually and physically, in addition they were degrading, destroying and assaulting Chinese culture and tradition recklessly and relentlessly.

    Qing sent highest ranking royal family members to Eight Nation League nations apologize for the troubles caused by the Boxer to them, in addition China paid eight hundred million ounces of silver and more unequal treaties to the Eight Nation League nations, and executed thousands of officials and Chinese demanded by the Eight Nation League as package of the apology.

    John Derbyshire, are you, the White, going to apologize for the millions of Chinese victims killed by the Eight Nation League false flag aggression and those perpetrators instigated the Boxer movement? And pay back the extortion your nations extorted from China?

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  106. @Panopticon
    Reading John Derbyshire's past articles against Chinese nationalism, I can only conclude that he wants the Chinese to be cucked. He doesn't say it out loud but it is quite implicit in his writings. He wants to preserve the white race (understandable) but is indignant that China wants to remain Chinese. Nationalism for me but not for you!

    I don’t know how you get that. I’d like the Chinese to restrict their territorial ambitions to metropolitan China, i.e. get the heck out of Tibet and Eastern Turkestan; but within that zone I’m happy for them t0 be as nationalist as they please.

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    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    Ah yes, promoting separatism.

    No.
    , @DB Cooper
    "I don’t know how you get that. I’d like the Chinese to restrict their territorial ambitions to metropolitan China, i.e. get the heck out of Tibet and Eastern Turkestan;"

    Standard clueless statement. Why don't you ask India to get the hell out of South Tibet, which was invaded and annexed by India in 1951?
    , @JJ
    The double standard and hypocrisy of some whites is unbelievable, and you are making your people look bad. If China needs to leave Tibet and Xinjjiang, then white people should get out of North America and Australia at the minimum.
    , @denk
    No,
    You first, John !

    USA.
    CANADA
    OZ
    NZ
    HAWAII
    GUAM
    PUERTO RICO
    DIEGO GARCIA,
    OKINAWA
    JEJU
    KOSOVO
    IRAQ
    AFGHANISTAN
    SYRIA
    ....
    LAST BUT NOT LEAST, INDIAN NE, AKA SOUTHERN TIBET
    THE TIBET THAT NO ANGLOS WANNA TALK ABOUT

    [PARTLY ROBBED BY THE BRITS AND BEQUEATHED TO THE INDIANS,
    PARTY GOBBLED UP BY INDIA AFTER ITS OWN INDEPENDENCE]
    , @Lin
    >>get the heck out of Tibet and Eastern Turkestan<<
    Why? Tibetans reap much economical benefits from rest of china and the homo-pedo lama theocracy which encamped something like 1/4 to 1/3 of Tibetan males was dismantled. Tibet economy will collapse overnight without china; just how well off are the Dalai's boys in India,eh?
    Nor will China allow Tibet to be controlled by US or india military bases.
    As with Xinjiang, are you, a self-proclaimed 'china hand' not know that China has a long history in central asia, as long as the Urghurs? The original inhabitants of Xinjiang were not Turkic Urghurs, actually a Persian speaking people, still there, numbered in 10s of 1000s the last time I checked their numbers.
    ......
    One more interesting bit, the semi-legendary Chinese heroine Hua Mulan was actually not a Han. She was the daughter of a non-han military chief who served the Chinese king/emperor in that part of central asia. I personally suspect 'Hua' is a local phonetical translation of 'Farsi'. Likely Mulan was ethnic Persian.
    .........
    I must remember you the limey imperial design on Tibet could only exists in the form of internet babble
    , @Joe Wong
    Please read comment #315 as Replies to your comment.
    , @TT
    Initially i thought John Derbyshire was juz naughtily trying to cobble some outright imbeciles writen articles that discriminating against China Chinese, to a ridiculous extend of justifying opium war is harmless for Chinese but themselves to blame for replacing opium with sesame paste, juz to spark some interesting debate.

    In the grand scale of psychoactive substances, opium as smoked in China from the seventeenth century onwards is not exceptionally harmful. A wealthy Chinese opium smoker “’does not seem much the worse’ for his habit,” noted an 1890s observer (quoted by Midler).

    So why was opium smoking so devastating among China’s poor? Adulteration, says Midler. In the extreme, a cheap variety named Hankow Cake contained no opium at all, only sesame seeds. Chines blame every wrong on others including opium war
     
    But this Tibet & Xinjiang statement has clearly given him away, he is juz another wilful anti-Chinese hater agitprop hiding in sheep skin with no slight good intention.

    For he had self proclaimed to read every books written about China, so he had no excuse to claim stupidity ignorant here.
    , @Snowman

    I don’t know how you get that. I’d like the Chinese to restrict their territorial ambitions to metropolitan China, i.e. get the heck out of Tibet and Eastern Turkestan; but within that zone I’m happy for them t0 be as nationalist as they please.
     
    I don’t know how you get that. I’d like the Americans to restrict their territorial ambitions to metropolitan America, i.e. get the heck out of Iraq, Germany and Japan; but within that zone I’m happy for them t0 be as nationalist as they please.
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  107. @Bardon Kaldian
    A vintage Derb. Classic. I would add only that I think "Oriental" (including Muslims) mind has not developed self-critique. It remains strongly collectivist & unaware of its shadow, to use a Jungian term.
    I know it is one of those generalizations that are impossible to prove, but ....

    Bardon:

    Thanks. This is my forte. I’ve read (a) well-nigh every book written by foreigners about China, and (b) much of what the Chinese have written about themselves (yes, including this one).

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    • Replies: @TT

    This is my forte. I’ve read (a) well-nigh every book written by foreigners about China, and (b) much of what the Chinese have written about themselves (yes, including this one).
     
    Indeed its John forte, to read every books about China, and continue to lies outright.

    To gobble how much West sewage does not make one any slightest healthier or wiser. Only if one travel to China, live and see for yourself with open mind without prejudice.

    China is such vast country with 1.4B people make up of many different ethnics & cultures, one that has a proud long 5000yrs civilization that not any fool should stereotype Chinese with a few isolated cases or old history, nor critics on Taoism, Confucianism, Buddhism, etc. after reading a few books.

    Juz as we shouldn't stereotype all Americans with Trumps, Niki, Bush, Clintons, rednecks, or hiphop Blacks, if you ever visited and live in US you can understand my message, the majority are more than that. Nor should we continue to harp on All Germans are Nazis, All AngloSaxon are Viking Pirates, All Blacks are Slave,....

    At times we might make some sarcastic remarks in our comments against say US gov moron mentality, just for fun but not stereotype all Americans are like that.
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  108. Weaver1 says:
    @dfordoom

    Part of Jewish power is in how Jews currently advocate for their interests and work together as a group while white Gentiles currently do not.
     
    Because white gentiles are not a group in any meaningful sense.

    To be a group you need a shared culture, a shared history, ties of kinship, a sense of community. An ethnicity can be a group in that sense, but white gentiles is too broad to have any meaning for anybody.

    You're also overlooking class. Elites most definitely have a sense of themselves as a coherent group with a shared culture. Elites definitely work together as a group. And it makes no difference if they're Jewish or non-Jewish, what matters is class. Elites have an intense sense of class consciousness.

    Non-elite whites have no class consciousness. That's why they get screwed.

    Class matters. It doesn’t matter to me, but it matters.

    Being Jewish also matters. It’s clear many of these secular Jews are sympathetic to Israel, and it’s natural that Jews would work comfortably together.

    One way Judaism matters is as TS Eliot warned: They identify neither as European nor as Christian. As such, secular Jews are less likely to conserve the West. So, it isn’t necessarily an intentional “Jews vs. West” situation but rather that secular Jews tend to go “Far Left”, so to speak.

    Mormonism also seems to be relevant.

    I’m open-minded. I believe it’s easy to err on this topic.

    If pursuing certain political changes, then elites, even Jewish elites, shouldn’t be able to abuse the system. I generally want to shrink the super wealthy, shrink large corporations, shrink big government. And I want to empower the middle class. That’s not all I’d change, but that gives an idea of my positioning.

    I view such changes as a sort of struggle among elites. If greater power were given to the middle class, I believe it would be an improvement. I’m not seeking utopia.

    But Judaism, as well as Mormonism and likely other groups, has been significant. Sam Francis wrote the following (which is actually still available online!):

    “If we are looking for the sources of the collective consciousness of “sins” such as “racism,” “sexism,” etc. and the systematic, politically enforced reconfiguration of American society, then the Jewish role in promoting racial egalitarianism, promoting feminism and subverting male social roles, instilling collective guilt, promoting mass immigration, and pushing multiculturalism (through Franz Boas and his disciples in anthropology, the civil rights movement, Freudian psychoanalysis, the Frankfurt School, any number of Marxist and New Left movements, Jewish feminist ideologues like Betty Friedan, Gloria Steinem, and Susan Sontag, pro- immigration lobbying by Jewish “public interest” groups and individual political figures, and the major architect of multiculturalism, Horace Kallen, not to mention the largely Jewish “neo-conservatism” of recent years) can hardly be ignored. Gottfried, however, does ignore it almost entirely, though he gives a casual and not very complimentary nod to Kevin MacDonald’s work, which he characterizes in a footnote as “methodologically uneven but occasionally illuminating.” (p. 42, n. 5; and see also p. 15, n. 21″

    I like to add Frank Meyers to the list. His “Fusionism” was harmful, in my view. Essentially Meyers “fused” traditional conservatism with libertarianism such that… only the libertarian remained. And a great weakness of the Right has been its ideological fanaticism and Pavlovian tendency to see any deviation from the market cult as “socialism”.

    Rothbard supposedly is a positive influence (I haven’t read much by him). Stephen Miller is the latest Jewish conservative, and he seems to be quite the conservative. Marcus Epstein was once condemned as a “white supremacist” (obviously he’s not) for being a man of character. The Antiwar website is supposedly very Jewish. I think there’s a Jewish guy at VDARE? So, we have lots of “good Jews”. It would be interesting to see the topic explored further. Dr. MacDonald once wrote how Jews in the US South fought for the South, were thus patriotic. So, there is a counter-narrative.

    Again, I’m a colonial Brit, and supposedly the British Empire did plenty of harm. And my state voluntarily embraced slavery. So, I can’t blame everything on Jews. But it is noteworthy how very powerful Jews are today.

    Great potential energy existed which was taken advantage of (not only by Jews). Richard Weaver, for example, warned how those who helped build the bombs used on Nagasaki and Hiroshima didn’t necessarily know what they were a part of. And he condemned “The Great Stereopticon” of mass media. These are societal weaknesses, potential energy, potential abuse.

    And regardless of who is in charge, such structures render a people little more than malleable, interchangeable, oblivious cattle. In short, it’s slavery; The managerial state is slavery. I value hierarchy, obviously (as does most anyone on the Right); but “hierarchy” needn’t mean enslavement.

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  109. Anon 2 says:
    @myself
    Maybe we shouldn't be all too quick to say that the Chinese have no beliefs. Say instead that they are searching for their footing in the world, having closed themselves off for centuries. So, indeed, if you are looking for set doctrines and ideas, well, it's way too early for that.

    They opened up in, at the earliest, 1978. In fact, the Reform and Opening did not become national policy until 1982.

    But back to the "no beliefs". During the early days of the Islamic expansion, in the 7th Century AD, Arab traders who had traversed the Silk Road, that there were these teeming masses in the East with no conception of God, and no faith to oppose to the Light and Truth of Islam. Surely, here was a massive opportunity for conversion. When Islam reaches that land, the inhabitants would be theologically and philosophically defenseless - or so thought the Imams of that age.

    In the 1800s, it was Christianity's turn to try their hand at the easy pickings that would be the Chinese. Where others failed, the Truth of Christianity would have universal appeal. Or so thought the missionaries of that later age.

    What they forgot was that the Chinese identity predated both their religions, by thousands of years.
    Communism did not affect the essential Russian character, nor that of the Chinese - it simply wasn't around long enough.

    So does a typical university-educated resident of say, Shanghai, have
    any metaphysical beliefs? In a Higher Power? An afterlife? Or is it
    mostly straight Marxist dialectical materialism?

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    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    None of the above, in my opinion, #2. At first glance, I thought you meant University-educated/attending Chinese people here in America. That's all I can vouch for when I state:

    Quite a few attend Christian churches. A minority of them may really be believing Christians, but I think most can not shake the materialism that is all they had for belief their whole lives before. They go to the service, but then the discussions are whether the Pastor should be making that much money, why they bought the big church van (a valid point) and whether the one lady is ripping them off on her home-made tofu (pretty sure).

    Hey, I'm just a lowly observer. I can't know what's in these peoples' hearts, or even what's coming out of most of their mouths.

    Oh, I never figured out what "dialectic" or "dialectical" mean, and by duckduckgoing it, I feel like I'll get on some kind of list resulting in SPAM emails about Communism and the latest coffee beans from Co-looom-bee-yah.
    , @Daniel Chieh
    Not Marxism, no.

    I'll say that like in the US, its mostly agnostic leaning toward atheism. The spiritual leanings that exist are largely toward Buddhism, lesser toward Christianity. Those interested in esoterica often go Taoist.
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  110. Realist says:
    @Anonymous
    The Holocaust is a tremendous black mark against western civilisation. It's the worst crime in recorded history and invalidates any western pretensions of superiority over anyone else.

    “It’s the worst crime in recorded history and invalidates any western pretensions of superiority over anyone else.”

    Getting a little overwrought….hey?
    Tend to exaggerate….hey?
    How about Stalin and Mao????

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    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    Hey, Realist, Stalin and Mao were just attempts at achieving Communism that went somewhat awry. They're gonna do it right and proper next time, least that's what a coupla unz writers have told me - Mr.'s Godfree and Petras.
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  111. In the 1930s, Ralph Townsend was convinced that his contemporaries wrote nothing as accurate as that which was produced by Arthur Smith [1890s] and Abbé Huc [1840s]…

    I reviewed Arthur H. Smith’s Chinese Characteristics here.

    The total lack of political correctness a century ago made anthropological writing funny and engaging in a way that is almost impossible today.

    You can even see this wrt to just China – here is another review I wrote about a modern anthropology of China.

    Ross (1866-1951) is an odd person for Midler to quote in this context. He would himself be denounced as the worst kind of bigot today. He was a race realist, nativist, and eugenicist who strongly objected to race mixing—so strongly, he was fired from his professorship at Stanford in 1900 for his views.

    You are never going to be this hardcore.

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  112. @Anon 2
    So does a typical university-educated resident of say, Shanghai, have
    any metaphysical beliefs? In a Higher Power? An afterlife? Or is it
    mostly straight Marxist dialectical materialism?

    None of the above, in my opinion, #2. At first glance, I thought you meant University-educated/attending Chinese people here in America. That’s all I can vouch for when I state:

    Quite a few attend Christian churches. A minority of them may really be believing Christians, but I think most can not shake the materialism that is all they had for belief their whole lives before. They go to the service, but then the discussions are whether the Pastor should be making that much money, why they bought the big church van (a valid point) and whether the one lady is ripping them off on her home-made tofu (pretty sure).

    Hey, I’m just a lowly observer. I can’t know what’s in these peoples’ hearts, or even what’s coming out of most of their mouths.

    Oh, I never figured out what “dialectic” or “dialectical” mean, and by duckduckgoing it, I feel like I’ll get on some kind of list resulting in SPAM emails about Communism and the latest coffee beans from Co-looom-bee-yah.

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  113. @Realist
    "It’s the worst crime in recorded history and invalidates any western pretensions of superiority over anyone else."

    Getting a little overwrought....hey?
    Tend to exaggerate....hey?
    How about Stalin and Mao????

    Hey, Realist, Stalin and Mao were just attempts at achieving Communism that went somewhat awry. They’re gonna do it right and proper next time, least that’s what a coupla unz writers have told me – Mr.’s Godfree and Petras.

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  114. @Daniel Chieh

    Yes, I agree, and that was my point. The low-level everyday stuff is means a lack of any trust in society besides within the family. That’s how it is in China.
     
    Low level corruption is mostly gone these days by the time I last visited since 2015. A lot harder to give bribes when every most transactions are automatically monitored and the consequences of it is death, usually by "honor suicide." The low levels of trust still exist but as it becomes unprofitable to be a pianzi, it'll go away in a generation or so.

    To be honest, I'm a little bit saddened by some of it. The reason why I bring up mores is because I actually don't believe that hongbao giving, which can be seen as corruption, or the system of mutual indebtedness was actually such a terrible thing in a world where people had to stay set. It very much created a sense of family and relates into guanxi. But as with many things, what works in the past may not work now.

    Another late reply, Daniel, but just a short story:

    A very religious lady (Christian) out west who we were acquainted with was “told by God” to go to China to help convert people to Christianity. She was a nice lady, but more important to this story, a baker by trade. All I had were (multiple) slices of raspberry cheesecake, and it was damn good, but her store made all kinds of great stuff.

    The family’s (kids and all, including an adopted Chinese little girl) idea was to go to China, somewhere in Zhejang province outside of Shanghai, to open up a coffee shop. It would have baked goods that the Chinese hopefully would love (if they have any decent taste buds at all!). I remember that the husband was going to take some type of blue-collar job, while the woman would talk about Christianity to customers.

    They were not going to bribe anyone for whatever permits they would need to open the bakery. However, more than a whole year went by in China, they tried their best, but the shop was never allowed to open. This family had integrity, but OTOH, I guess not so many Chinese were converted.

    The family came back to America, having wasted that time, completely due to corruption, and probably the fact that the Chinese gov’t doesn’t cotton to religion.

    Now, you can get breaks from a guy from the city or country for whatever, here too, but I’ll tell you this. If you are small time, but you push through the system, you can get things done here eventually, albeit probably with more stress, even if you never go through any dirty channels. You may have to threaten going over people’s heads or even lawsuits, but you can get your way.

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    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    The religion thing with respect to the current - Alt-Commie gov they've got in China, reminded me:

    How about that Falun Gong business that was going on as far back as the early 2000's? I remember reading about it in the WSJ, before I ditched that rag. Come on, these people just wanted to hang out together to exercise and meditate. That gave the Chinese government fits, and they attempted to shut it all down.

    There are quite a few Chinese people now who could afford to lose 10-20 lb. They should crank that Falun Gong stuff back up and rebrand it, as "The People's Falun Gong", not "your Baba' Falun Gong" with some way for the people involved to make a profit. Possibly they could pick up trash as part of the exercises and even clean up loogies off the sidewalk (the latter would probably put a big dent in the workforce though ....)
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  115. @John Derbyshire
    Achmed:

    Deep waters here. I recommend Prof. LaFleur's lectures on the Analects of Confucius. Executive summary: commentator "Duke of Qin" is more or less right.

    Yeah, couldn’t pull it up on this ole-timey browser due to https, but I’ll look at it on another device later on. Thank you.

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  116. @Achmed E. Newman
    Another late reply, Daniel, but just a short story:

    A very religious lady (Christian) out west who we were acquainted with was "told by God" to go to China to help convert people to Christianity. She was a nice lady, but more important to this story, a baker by trade. All I had were (multiple) slices of raspberry cheesecake, and it was damn good, but her store made all kinds of great stuff.

    The family's (kids and all, including an adopted Chinese little girl) idea was to go to China, somewhere in Zhejang province outside of Shanghai, to open up a coffee shop. It would have baked goods that the Chinese hopefully would love (if they have any decent taste buds at all!). I remember that the husband was going to take some type of blue-collar job, while the woman would talk about Christianity to customers.

    They were not going to bribe anyone for whatever permits they would need to open the bakery. However, more than a whole year went by in China, they tried their best, but the shop was never allowed to open. This family had integrity, but OTOH, I guess not so many Chinese were converted.

    The family came back to America, having wasted that time, completely due to corruption, and probably the fact that the Chinese gov't doesn't cotton to religion.

    Now, you can get breaks from a guy from the city or country for whatever, here too, but I'll tell you this. If you are small time, but you push through the system, you can get things done here eventually, albeit probably with more stress, even if you never go through any dirty channels. You may have to threaten going over people's heads or even lawsuits, but you can get your way.

    The religion thing with respect to the current – Alt-Commie gov they’ve got in China, reminded me:

    How about that Falun Gong business that was going on as far back as the early 2000′s? I remember reading about it in the WSJ, before I ditched that rag. Come on, these people just wanted to hang out together to exercise and meditate. That gave the Chinese government fits, and they attempted to shut it all down.

    There are quite a few Chinese people now who could afford to lose 10-20 lb. They should crank that Falun Gong stuff back up and rebrand it, as “The People’s Falun Gong”, not “your Baba’ Falun Gong” with some way for the people involved to make a profit. Possibly they could pick up trash as part of the exercises and even clean up loogies off the sidewalk (the latter would probably put a big dent in the workforce though ….)

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    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    Falun Gong is a political party masquerading as a religion. There's more to be said about that, but T. Greer of Scholar's Stage, who is plainly anti-Chinese government, has even gone into this as well. Falun Gong for all practical purposes, is an subversive entity that gathers funds overseas to undermine the government. He compared them to Al-Queda; I would compare them to Scientology. In both cases, it is a religious entity with political intentions. The Party does not welcome that. Good riddance.

    Your friend's first mistake was to make a store that had a relationship with Christianity. This probably put them on a blacklist. The last mistake was not to address it in a relevant way, such talking to a Communist party official. Bribes aren't necessary, but not being seen as a threat is. The Party comes before you, China and God Himself as far as the Party is concerned.

    If they want to try again, try Shenzhen. And talk to a Party official for goodness' sake.

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  117. njguy73 says:
    @John Derbyshire
    Paul Midler discusses this in his excellent book. Will (for example) China Apologize for the hundreds of foreigners cruelly massacred in the Boxer rebellion? Don't hold your breath.

    Derb, this is why I read whatever you post.

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    • Replies: @Joe Wong
    John Derbyshire is a classic history denier, a diehard Eurocentrist, and Orientalism believer. JD lies about the present, about the past, even about the future. JD is jealous, resentful and fear of China’s rise.
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  118. njguy73 says:
    @denk

    If not, is the world ready for a superpower with no sense of responsibility?
     
    Do the Chinese a favor kid, they loathes this label of 'superpower', to them its nothing but a target painted on their back, a red flag to the murkkan bull !

    What might your idea of a 'responsible' superpower be,
    the one where 95% of the populace support bombing a country called...
    Agrabah ??

    https://johnmenadue.com/john-menadue-we-are-in-denial-about-the-risks-in-our-relationship-with-the-united-states-part-1-of-2/

    buahahahahah

    You’re right. The U.S. may have once displayed responsibility as a superpower, but no longer does. And will lose that status.

    Read More
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  119. Svigor says:

    Midler calls it “collective narcissism”

    The Jews would know, wouldn’t they? As collectively narcissistic a people as any on Earth. Next time you hear or read a Jew complaining about some people other than Jews, ask him what are the historical sins of the Jews. He’ll tell you “nothing,” or he’ll humblebrag (“too naive,” “too trusting,” lol), or he’ll go ethnocentric (“we aren’t Jewish enough”) or religious (“we forgot G-d’s Law”) but it is extremely unlikely he will give you any actual criticism of anything Jews did to the other. Jews are blameless, and Jews in general are devoid of the White tendency to step out of their own shoes and look at things remotely objectively, or from the other fellow’s point of view.

    China is a vase teetering on its edge, and maintaining balance has been a goal throughout its history.

    This seems an obvious and inevitable consequence of China’s (population) size. China is basically Europe in east Asia; no way in Hell that center would hold for long in Europe. Europeans are too fractious. That the Chinese have managed to do it for so long is a testament to their less fractious character. But there are limits; China’s hold has always been uneasy.

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  120. @Achmed E. Newman
    The religion thing with respect to the current - Alt-Commie gov they've got in China, reminded me:

    How about that Falun Gong business that was going on as far back as the early 2000's? I remember reading about it in the WSJ, before I ditched that rag. Come on, these people just wanted to hang out together to exercise and meditate. That gave the Chinese government fits, and they attempted to shut it all down.

    There are quite a few Chinese people now who could afford to lose 10-20 lb. They should crank that Falun Gong stuff back up and rebrand it, as "The People's Falun Gong", not "your Baba' Falun Gong" with some way for the people involved to make a profit. Possibly they could pick up trash as part of the exercises and even clean up loogies off the sidewalk (the latter would probably put a big dent in the workforce though ....)

    Falun Gong is a political party masquerading as a religion. There’s more to be said about that, but T. Greer of Scholar’s Stage, who is plainly anti-Chinese government, has even gone into this as well. Falun Gong for all practical purposes, is an subversive entity that gathers funds overseas to undermine the government. He compared them to Al-Queda; I would compare them to Scientology. In both cases, it is a religious entity with political intentions. The Party does not welcome that. Good riddance.

    Your friend’s first mistake was to make a store that had a relationship with Christianity. This probably put them on a blacklist. The last mistake was not to address it in a relevant way, such talking to a Communist party official. Bribes aren’t necessary, but not being seen as a threat is. The Party comes before you, China and God Himself as far as the Party is concerned.

    If they want to try again, try Shenzhen. And talk to a Party official for goodness’ sake.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman

    Bribes aren’t necessary, but not being seen as a threat is. The Party comes before you, China and God Himself as far as the Party is concerned.

    If they want to try again, try Shenzhen. And talk to a Party official for goodness’ sake.

     
    Hey, Daniel, you were not there, and they were there, for OVER A YEAR. I'm sure if they could have got it done legitimately, they would have. These people were not stupid. They told my friend (cause I haven't had a chance to see them since) that bribes were required, and they just weren't gonna do that.

    Nope I doubt they will return to China. Enough is enough.
    , @TT

    If they want to try again, try Shenzhen. And talk to a Party official for goodness’ sake.

     


    MANILA: Around 2,000 Roman
    Catholic Filipinos protested in Manila on Saturday (Feb 24) against a push to legalise divorce, with church groups also using the "Walk for Life" march to slam President Rodrigo Duterte's deadly drugs war.
     
    In Philippines, its illegal to divorce, abortion, contraception.... bcos RC said so. Crimes, drugs, poverty, HIV, terrorists are fueling by explosive population.

    80% of Philippino are RCatholic, under church bishops sway to influence election & politicians. These powerful bishops are appointed by a foreign Pope. And who select Pope & give instruction? See the matrix of power play. China will has the hell greatest nightmare to allow this most stupid Philippines nonsense to subjugate its country by foreign force.

    Some talented friends quit their successful corporate life to do China underground church missionary like Newman's innocent friend. Bcos Chinese ethnic is less suspected by CPC religion affair. But Instruct by who, For who, For what? Didn't China has many public churches, why need underground churches? They told its death sentence if caught, but for love of god...they disappeared.

    Someone enthusiastically passed me their godly worshipped (Jewish look)pastor CD to listen. It praise Hebrew as only God's language every few mins, urging all followers to defend Israel otherwise Jesus can't resurrect in Jerusalem soon....a hidden message they listen nonstop playing the CD everywhere.

    When i question them do they understand this hidden message, they don't even know..only god words from bible they said.... already subconsciously brainwashed.

    And their gov leaders, ministers, top civil servants, judges are all attending these mega churches at prestige locations. They Christianized and Catholicized the whole government by bringing in their own believers, grant illegally hundreds of millions/lands to build mega churches.

    Flush with money, they mushroom everywhere in heartlands, flourish with modern concerts, theatre like services, mega donations drive, attracting all young & old...wielding great influence.

    When the pope visit, their country leaders knee down with absolute faith and eye balls rolling up into ecstasy.

    Can CPC leaders accept such subjugation by foreign controlled bishops?

    Newman friend is fortunate for not been prosecuted under China strictest religion subversion clause for promoting foreign religion under disguise of running a cafe.

    They complaint about schism due to China insistence to appoint own Bishop instead of letting a Western Pope decide.

    The all powerful Religion Affair Office is the only dept my influential China friends failed to bribe. Every religion activities are tightly monitor since US HQ-Falungong had given CPC a shocking heart attack involving hundred of millions people including high ranking party members.

    But my apologies that they had to experience that. I’m sure it was frustrating for them.
     
    Do you still feel sorry for his ignorant friend unsuccessful underground subversion activities? Try Shenzhen next time.... OMG!

    Its not juz Philippine, many Asian countries are already happening.... underground.... like the Qin dynasty opium war time West religion missionary, so much love for China.
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  121. AaronB says:

    I just read that book by Midler, and it is fascinating. It’s exactly how Jews do business in America, adjusted for different circumstances.

    Every white person should read that book if he’s interested in the future survival of the West. Not in order to “bash” China – but to learn from it!

    And why not? The West must humble itself and learn, because their old tactics just aren’t adaptive anymore. Asians learned from the West when it was clear that their culture was maladaptive – are we gonna be too stubborn to do the same? Are we gonna have to go through some massive trauma like Asians did?

    Right now Asians and Jews have more adaptive tactics than us – why shouldn’t we be humble enough to accept that?

    For the past 500 years our tactics were supreme, but not anymore.

    The essence of Chinese tactics – and Jewish – after all the verbiage can be reduced to one single word: deception, deception, deception.

    Deception is death to innovation. For that you require brutal honesty of the kind the West specialized in for the past few centuries. But let’s be brutally frank – the era of innovation is over. Finished. At best, we are refining existing technologies.

    In this new era the old brutal honesty of the West is maladaptive.

    If the West is to survive, it must reinvent itself and develop a tradition of deception like Sun Tzu. This shouldn’t be impossible because the West has reinvented itself multiple times, like Japan.

    Let’s put aside all sentimentalism and be brutally frank here – the west did not have a culture of brutal honesty because it was more “moral”. They had it because it gave them tremendous power in the form of technology.

    But for whatever reason, technological innovation has dried up, and sticking to a culture of brutal honesty is maladaptive in this new environment.

    If the West wants to survive, it must get rid of its sentimental attachment to morality and honesty and develop cunning – deception.

    There is no other way – the honesty needed to develop new technology is just no longer yielding any fruits and has become a massive chain around our necks.

    A new culture of deception and cunning can coexist with virtue and compassion to some degree, but the extreme development of honesty is an over-specialization that cannot be sustained.

    Another thing westerners should copy from the Chinese and Jews – don’t take the world so seriously.

    Westerners seem terribly in earnest, whereas for Jews and Asians the world and all its imposing social structures are something of a joke.

    Perhaps Buddhism with its theory of the world as an illusion helps the Chinese not be so terribly serious – and perhaps Jews as outsiders and nomads have learned to not see seemingly solid social structures as evanescent.

    But the Western grasp for permanence and stability in an unstable world is seriously maladaptive.

    Life is much more fun when you don’t take it seriously – more of an adventure. It’s this attitude that is the source of Chinese charm.

    We need detachment, not to be so serious, to see life as more of a joke and an adventure.

    Detachment also gives you flexibility and adaptability to novel situations – “beliefs” give you rigidity and death.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    For what it is worth, I believe that Christianity and evangelical religions are tremendously powerful in their ability to provide justification to do things which would have more "rational" material idea but nonetheless provide valuable experiences and knowledge.

    Its not rational, for example, to go forth as missionaries but that often leads to experiences in other nations and languages, not to mention serves as a meaningful backing for colonization(to protect the local Christians). Its not an accident that Chinese Muslims were always the most hawkish in the dynastic court - wanting to clear a path to Mecca for fellow Muslims, for example, is something that seems irrational but is religiously very sound. A Muslim-dominated China would probably be much larger, though likely not have many of current characteristics of the people.

    In that, I think that evangelical religions can be quite admirable.

    , @wayfarer

    Deception is death to innovation. For that you require brutal honesty of the kind the West specialized in for the past few centuries. But let’s be brutally frank – the era of innovation is over. Finished. At best, we are refining existing technologies.
     
    Invention or innovation.

    An art, a science, a spiritual handout.

    Creation, never sleeps.

    Creator shares its work, unconditionally.

    Cosmic designs and universal laws.

    A wild juicy orange, is yours for the taking.

    Infinitely giving, only hoping that we might pay it forward.

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  122. @John Derbyshire
    I don't know how you get that. I'd like the Chinese to restrict their territorial ambitions to metropolitan China, i.e. get the heck out of Tibet and Eastern Turkestan; but within that zone I'm happy for them t0 be as nationalist as they please.

    Ah yes, promoting separatism.

    No.

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  123. @Anon 2
    So does a typical university-educated resident of say, Shanghai, have
    any metaphysical beliefs? In a Higher Power? An afterlife? Or is it
    mostly straight Marxist dialectical materialism?

    Not Marxism, no.

    I’ll say that like in the US, its mostly agnostic leaning toward atheism. The spiritual leanings that exist are largely toward Buddhism, lesser toward Christianity. Those interested in esoterica often go Taoist.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AaronB
    And Buddhism and taoism discourage metaphysical speculation - much of Buddhism is the use of subtle logic to make us see all beliefs are untenable and ultimate reality is a mystery beyond words.

    Beliefs are a western peculiarity.

    Abandoning Marxism won't lead the Chinese into a belief system - but maybe, into traditional practices designed to cope with mystery.
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  124. AaronB says:

    And it’s a myth that China is a peaceful society that seeks harmony – it’s obvious that Chinese society is in a constant state of low level warfare where aggression gets chanelled into business rather than bloodshed. Perhaps that’s better, but aggression there is in spades.

    Maybe it’s time to accept that strife is inescapable and peace an illusion. As a species we will probably destroy ourselves, but why not treat the ride down as a grand adventure?

    And for those of you like me – mystics, poets, and pleasure seekers – who are bored by the competition for status and money, we can develop a self defensive cunning and deception that keeps us afloat in a shifting and tricky world and allows us to follow our impulses in relative freedom, and not taking the world seriously will defend us from being taken in by the seemingly imposing structures of society.

    Read More
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  125. AaronB says:
    @Daniel Chieh
    Not Marxism, no.

    I'll say that like in the US, its mostly agnostic leaning toward atheism. The spiritual leanings that exist are largely toward Buddhism, lesser toward Christianity. Those interested in esoterica often go Taoist.

    And Buddhism and taoism discourage metaphysical speculation – much of Buddhism is the use of subtle logic to make us see all beliefs are untenable and ultimate reality is a mystery beyond words.

    Beliefs are a western peculiarity.

    Abandoning Marxism won’t lead the Chinese into a belief system – but maybe, into traditional practices designed to cope with mystery.

    Read More
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  126. @AaronB
    I just read that book by Midler, and it is fascinating. It's exactly how Jews do business in America, adjusted for different circumstances.

    Every white person should read that book if he's interested in the future survival of the West. Not in order to "bash" China - but to learn from it!

    And why not? The West must humble itself and learn, because their old tactics just aren't adaptive anymore. Asians learned from the West when it was clear that their culture was maladaptive - are we gonna be too stubborn to do the same? Are we gonna have to go through some massive trauma like Asians did?

    Right now Asians and Jews have more adaptive tactics than us - why shouldn't we be humble enough to accept that?

    For the past 500 years our tactics were supreme, but not anymore.

    The essence of Chinese tactics - and Jewish - after all the verbiage can be reduced to one single word: deception, deception, deception.

    Deception is death to innovation. For that you require brutal honesty of the kind the West specialized in for the past few centuries. But let's be brutally frank - the era of innovation is over. Finished. At best, we are refining existing technologies.

    In this new era the old brutal honesty of the West is maladaptive.

    If the West is to survive, it must reinvent itself and develop a tradition of deception like Sun Tzu. This shouldn't be impossible because the West has reinvented itself multiple times, like Japan.

    Let's put aside all sentimentalism and be brutally frank here - the west did not have a culture of brutal honesty because it was more "moral". They had it because it gave them tremendous power in the form of technology.

    But for whatever reason, technological innovation has dried up, and sticking to a culture of brutal honesty is maladaptive in this new environment.

    If the West wants to survive, it must get rid of its sentimental attachment to morality and honesty and develop cunning - deception.

    There is no other way - the honesty needed to develop new technology is just no longer yielding any fruits and has become a massive chain around our necks.

    A new culture of deception and cunning can coexist with virtue and compassion to some degree, but the extreme development of honesty is an over-specialization that cannot be sustained.

    Another thing westerners should copy from the Chinese and Jews - don't take the world so seriously.

    Westerners seem terribly in earnest, whereas for Jews and Asians the world and all its imposing social structures are something of a joke.

    Perhaps Buddhism with its theory of the world as an illusion helps the Chinese not be so terribly serious - and perhaps Jews as outsiders and nomads have learned to not see seemingly solid social structures as evanescent.

    But the Western grasp for permanence and stability in an unstable world is seriously maladaptive.

    Life is much more fun when you don't take it seriously - more of an adventure. It's this attitude that is the source of Chinese charm.

    We need detachment, not to be so serious, to see life as more of a joke and an adventure.

    Detachment also gives you flexibility and adaptability to novel situations - "beliefs" give you rigidity and death.

    For what it is worth, I believe that Christianity and evangelical religions are tremendously powerful in their ability to provide justification to do things which would have more “rational” material idea but nonetheless provide valuable experiences and knowledge.

    Its not rational, for example, to go forth as missionaries but that often leads to experiences in other nations and languages, not to mention serves as a meaningful backing for colonization(to protect the local Christians). Its not an accident that Chinese Muslims were always the most hawkish in the dynastic court – wanting to clear a path to Mecca for fellow Muslims, for example, is something that seems irrational but is religiously very sound. A Muslim-dominated China would probably be much larger, though likely not have many of current characteristics of the people.

    In that, I think that evangelical religions can be quite admirable.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AaronB
    Right, Christianity seen as a "technology" has been very useful - but things change, and we must adapt.

    Flexibility is key.
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  127. @Daniel Chieh
    Falun Gong is a political party masquerading as a religion. There's more to be said about that, but T. Greer of Scholar's Stage, who is plainly anti-Chinese government, has even gone into this as well. Falun Gong for all practical purposes, is an subversive entity that gathers funds overseas to undermine the government. He compared them to Al-Queda; I would compare them to Scientology. In both cases, it is a religious entity with political intentions. The Party does not welcome that. Good riddance.

    Your friend's first mistake was to make a store that had a relationship with Christianity. This probably put them on a blacklist. The last mistake was not to address it in a relevant way, such talking to a Communist party official. Bribes aren't necessary, but not being seen as a threat is. The Party comes before you, China and God Himself as far as the Party is concerned.

    If they want to try again, try Shenzhen. And talk to a Party official for goodness' sake.

    Bribes aren’t necessary, but not being seen as a threat is. The Party comes before you, China and God Himself as far as the Party is concerned.

    If they want to try again, try Shenzhen. And talk to a Party official for goodness’ sake.

    Hey, Daniel, you were not there, and they were there, for OVER A YEAR. I’m sure if they could have got it done legitimately, they would have. These people were not stupid. They told my friend (cause I haven’t had a chance to see them since) that bribes were required, and they just weren’t gonna do that.

    Nope I doubt they will return to China. Enough is enough.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    "Blacklist" means something beyond "wait a year."

    The error was not in the money; it was because a relationship with Christianity was extant. Beyond that, it ain't Jian Zemin's China anymore.

    But my apologies that they had to experience that. I'm sure it was frustrating for them.

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  128. @Achmed E. Newman

    Bribes aren’t necessary, but not being seen as a threat is. The Party comes before you, China and God Himself as far as the Party is concerned.

    If they want to try again, try Shenzhen. And talk to a Party official for goodness’ sake.

     
    Hey, Daniel, you were not there, and they were there, for OVER A YEAR. I'm sure if they could have got it done legitimately, they would have. These people were not stupid. They told my friend (cause I haven't had a chance to see them since) that bribes were required, and they just weren't gonna do that.

    Nope I doubt they will return to China. Enough is enough.

    “Blacklist” means something beyond “wait a year.”

    The error was not in the money; it was because a relationship with Christianity was extant. Beyond that, it ain’t Jian Zemin’s China anymore.

    But my apologies that they had to experience that. I’m sure it was frustrating for them.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    Nah, no apology is necessary from you, but this was a story to illustrate corruption at the local level, as we have been discussing. As far as the Christianity aspect, see, I'm not sure they would have even brought that up (maybe that's devious, maybe not, cause, after all, it was not supposed to be a Church/Coffee shop/Bakery, as far as I know). I think they just figured they'd open it, introduce the Chinese to good baking*, and then discuss Christ with the customers.

    Back to another point - I just discussed Falun Gong with a Chinawoman, who does not have much political knowledge or interest. She agreed with you that, and used descriptions that would make it seem somewhere in between Jim Jone's Kool-Aid drinkers** and subversives like, say the antifa. So, I apologize for my lack of knowledge on this group. Is it true that hundreds of them burned themselves to death at Tienanmen Square? That's what I was told, but it's hard to get at the real truth, anywhere, these days.


    * As you know, there is not much knowledge of it. I mean, steamed bread, come TF on? ;-}

    ** Man, all this commenting is making me thirsty!
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  129. AaronB says:
    @Daniel Chieh
    For what it is worth, I believe that Christianity and evangelical religions are tremendously powerful in their ability to provide justification to do things which would have more "rational" material idea but nonetheless provide valuable experiences and knowledge.

    Its not rational, for example, to go forth as missionaries but that often leads to experiences in other nations and languages, not to mention serves as a meaningful backing for colonization(to protect the local Christians). Its not an accident that Chinese Muslims were always the most hawkish in the dynastic court - wanting to clear a path to Mecca for fellow Muslims, for example, is something that seems irrational but is religiously very sound. A Muslim-dominated China would probably be much larger, though likely not have many of current characteristics of the people.

    In that, I think that evangelical religions can be quite admirable.

    Right, Christianity seen as a “technology” has been very useful – but things change, and we must adapt.

    Flexibility is key.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    I don't know if humanity as we know of it has that much of a future. I think about Kaczynski a lot.
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  130. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    The downside of this high level of commercial acumen is long-term commercial failure. Chinese merchants can’t resist the temptation to kill the golden goose for the sake of a couple more cents on the dollar.

    Midler tells the story of tea, which I think is quite well-known. Given that tea is native to China, not (except very marginally) to India, why did the West end up drinking Indian tea, not Chinese tea? Midler:

    The tea industry collapsed in part because growers were sending leaves to market without drying them. This was not a time-saving maneuver. It was done because wet leaves weigh more, and the additional weight brought in more revenue. The problem with moisture is that it leads to mold, which affects taste.

    This passage is particularly jarring given the larger Chinese macroeconomic context. Midler and Derbyshire come off as grandpas with a loose collection of persnickety anecdotes that aren’t illuminating. So how do these sub-optimal Chinese long term business practices fit in within the larger frame of tremendous success as an exporter?

    China’s proportion of global exports rose to 13.8 percent last year from 12.3 percent in 2014, data from the United Nations Conference on Trade and Employment shows, the highest share any country has enjoyed since the United States in 1968.

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-exports/china-seizes-biggest-share-of-global-exports-in-almost-50-years-idUSKCN0XJ097

    This is not to say there aren’t a lot of cultural problems and backwardness in how Chinese do things but unless Midler or Derbyshire can meld both observation and larger factual context together into a coherent idea, I doubt they have any value as intelligent commentators on China.

    Read More
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  131. @AaronB
    Right, Christianity seen as a "technology" has been very useful - but things change, and we must adapt.

    Flexibility is key.

    I don’t know if humanity as we know of it has that much of a future. I think about Kaczynski a lot.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AaronB
    I hear you, Daniel. I am convinced humanity has no future.

    Like all species, ours will go extinct eventually. Our problems are intractable. Nationalism leads to war. Abandoning nationalism leads to destruction. There is no solution.

    I had this idea that humans "should" be good - I am forced to admit that I simply had the wrong idea about humans. That's just not the "kind" of animal we are. At what point can you no longer deny reality.

    Rather than being depressing such a reality check can be liberating. No longer hobbled by illusions, we can enjoy the ride while it lasts.

    There is a deep mystery at the bottom of the world, and the value of the world does not depend on the existence of humans.
    , @Achmed E. Newman
    I know someone who is related to a 20-y/o (at the time) who got a number of his fingers blown off by that guy. Kaczynski deserves to be stuck in a hole somewhere. I do think the guy's thinking was amazingly prescient. Some people may be too smart to live in this world, as they can see all the devious bad stuff coming down and can't handle it.

    Those types need to get outside and do some work. I bet if Mr. Kaczynski had been spending time improving the cabin, and raising all his own food, it'd have cleared his mind and made him somewhat happier. That's my prescription, and I wouldn't have even charged him for it.

    Dr. Achmed E. Newman, psychoanalyst-in-training
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  132. AaronB says:
    @Daniel Chieh
    I don't know if humanity as we know of it has that much of a future. I think about Kaczynski a lot.

    I hear you, Daniel. I am convinced humanity has no future.

    Like all species, ours will go extinct eventually. Our problems are intractable. Nationalism leads to war. Abandoning nationalism leads to destruction. There is no solution.

    I had this idea that humans “should” be good – I am forced to admit that I simply had the wrong idea about humans. That’s just not the “kind” of animal we are. At what point can you no longer deny reality.

    Rather than being depressing such a reality check can be liberating. No longer hobbled by illusions, we can enjoy the ride while it lasts.

    There is a deep mystery at the bottom of the world, and the value of the world does not depend on the existence of humans.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    Well, when we create general purpose AI, even if it means that even if our species was destined Chronos-like to be a father to be betrayed, we nonetheless will leave a legacy for our "children" eve as our remenants of our spieces live in a Tartarus that was our collective subconscious desire.

    I find that hopeful as a thought.

    , @Corvinus
    "I hear you, Daniel. I am convinced humanity has no future."

    So you espouse a belief that people are essentially meaningless, and that life on earth is futile. Feel free to hold that opinion.

    "Like all species, ours will go extinct eventually."

    MAY go, or COULD go, but not WILL. Your fatalism is duly noted.

    "Our problems are intractable. Nationalism leads to war. Abandoning nationalism leads to destruction. There is no solution."

    Of course there are solutions. You are being ridiculous here.

    "I had this idea that humans “should” be good – I am forced to admit that I simply had the wrong idea about humans. That’s just not the “kind” of animal we are. At what point can you no longer deny reality."

    The reality is that most people are good in a number of different ways. Whether or not they "should" be in each and every situation demonstrates our fallibility.

    "There is a deep mystery at the bottom of the world, and the value of the world does not depend on the existence of humans."

    Thankfully, very few people on this Earth value your extreme skepticism, that nothing in the world has a real existence.
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  133. @Daniel Chieh
    "Blacklist" means something beyond "wait a year."

    The error was not in the money; it was because a relationship with Christianity was extant. Beyond that, it ain't Jian Zemin's China anymore.

    But my apologies that they had to experience that. I'm sure it was frustrating for them.

    Nah, no apology is necessary from you, but this was a story to illustrate corruption at the local level, as we have been discussing. As far as the Christianity aspect, see, I’m not sure they would have even brought that up (maybe that’s devious, maybe not, cause, after all, it was not supposed to be a Church/Coffee shop/Bakery, as far as I know). I think they just figured they’d open it, introduce the Chinese to good baking*, and then discuss Christ with the customers.

    Back to another point – I just discussed Falun Gong with a Chinawoman, who does not have much political knowledge or interest. She agreed with you that, and used descriptions that would make it seem somewhere in between Jim Jone’s Kool-Aid drinkers** and subversives like, say the antifa. So, I apologize for my lack of knowledge on this group. Is it true that hundreds of them burned themselves to death at Tienanmen Square? That’s what I was told, but it’s hard to get at the real truth, anywhere, these days.

    * As you know, there is not much knowledge of it. I mean, steamed bread, come TF on? ;-}

    ** Man, all this commenting is making me thirsty!

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    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    Yes, some burned themselves to death. But more importantly, they organized significant numbers and tried to subvert the Party and daddy don't take kindly to that, let's just say. You don't try to out-cancer the cancer, damn it.

    Its hard to find out what's going on in China, to be honest. I consider Richard McGregor to be one of the Western sources on China and he explained it as such: "The West doesn't try very hard to understand what's going on inside of China, and the Party tries to be as obscure as possible." It can make for a difficult combination.
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  134. @Daniel Chieh
    I don't know if humanity as we know of it has that much of a future. I think about Kaczynski a lot.

    I know someone who is related to a 20-y/o (at the time) who got a number of his fingers blown off by that guy. Kaczynski deserves to be stuck in a hole somewhere. I do think the guy’s thinking was amazingly prescient. Some people may be too smart to live in this world, as they can see all the devious bad stuff coming down and can’t handle it.

    Those types need to get outside and do some work. I bet if Mr. Kaczynski had been spending time improving the cabin, and raising all his own food, it’d have cleared his mind and made him somewhat happier. That’s my prescription, and I wouldn’t have even charged him for it.

    Dr. Achmed E. Newman, psychoanalyst-in-training

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    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    He had his moments of levity.


    A North Dakota woman who worked at a Montana truck stop as a waitress with Kaczynski in 1974 when she was 19, recalled that Kaczynski wrote her three letters after she left.

    The first, she said, was "basically an invitation or a request for me to move to northern Canada and be his squaw." She said the second letter "was more like a resume" in which Kaczynski told her he had graduated from Harvard and published scientific papers.

    The last letter was an official declaration of surrender from his previous wooing efforts.
     
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  135. AaronB says:

    Here is a great little anecdote told by a Syrian Jew to the author -

    It was important to Bernie that I knew where he was coming from. Close to the end of the bottle of whiskey, he told me the story of his very first business venture. While still in school, he had an idea to sell watches. He took a train from Brooklyn, where he lived, to Manhattan and found a jeweler that was selling watches for a bargain price. He found another shop that produced boxes that were attractive (“the box cost me more than the watch”), and then he went to a man in his neighborhood called Mark the Printer (“That’s what we called him”) and had some certificates made up on parchment paper.

    “I had business cards made and called myself the Vice President of Disadvantaged Neighborhoods,” Bernie said, “and I told them that I was specially authorized to give credit. You see, no one was giving credit in those days, especially not in the neighborhoods where I was going with these watches. All they had to do was make the first payment, I told them. They could mail me the other three payments.”

    “The watches sold for $180, and each payment was $45. But I didn’t have more than $20 in the whole deal, between the watch, the box, and the parchment.” Bernie took a sip from his glass and looked at me to see if I was paying attention. “You see, these guys that bought my watches, they all figured that they were going to fuck me out of the three payments. But, in the end, I made my profit on just the first payment.”

    This is how fortunes are made. Instead of getting angry at those dastardly Jews why not understand that society, which seems so solid, is actually made out of smoke and mist?

    Instead of a naive faith in IQ and “merit” which offers the comfort that life “makes sense” and things are reasonable and well ordeted, why not accept that at the bottom of life there is chaos?

    Is it scary to admit that the social order is underpinned by sheer nothingness? That IQ would only be a determining factor in a reasonable world that was well ordered – not our world of chaos? Sometimes I wonder if the IQ myth was not invented by people desperate to believe the world was well ordered.

    Shed your illusions, and he free.

    And it isn’t a Jewish or Asian thing – the Elizabethans were master decievers and pirates, and the English acquired India through fraud and deceit. Read your history, white people.

    Greatness is inseparable from fraud and deceit. Underneath the social order is sheer nothingness.

    One may well after seeing this decide that greatness is inane – but surely the stupidest idea is to think that we live in a well ordered world where greatness is the simple reward of genuine merit.

    You can rail at the Jews or the Asians, but we are all condemned to live in a world that is run by these principles. The dream of an isolationist white society organized on different principles is an illusion. Nationalist countries may be more harmonious at home, but they are condemned to practice fraud, deceit, and force on the world stage.

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  136. @AaronB
    I hear you, Daniel. I am convinced humanity has no future.

    Like all species, ours will go extinct eventually. Our problems are intractable. Nationalism leads to war. Abandoning nationalism leads to destruction. There is no solution.

    I had this idea that humans "should" be good - I am forced to admit that I simply had the wrong idea about humans. That's just not the "kind" of animal we are. At what point can you no longer deny reality.

    Rather than being depressing such a reality check can be liberating. No longer hobbled by illusions, we can enjoy the ride while it lasts.

    There is a deep mystery at the bottom of the world, and the value of the world does not depend on the existence of humans.

    Well, when we create general purpose AI, even if it means that even if our species was destined Chronos-like to be a father to be betrayed, we nonetheless will leave a legacy for our “children” eve as our remenants of our spieces live in a Tartarus that was our collective subconscious desire.

    I find that hopeful as a thought.

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  137. @Achmed E. Newman
    I know someone who is related to a 20-y/o (at the time) who got a number of his fingers blown off by that guy. Kaczynski deserves to be stuck in a hole somewhere. I do think the guy's thinking was amazingly prescient. Some people may be too smart to live in this world, as they can see all the devious bad stuff coming down and can't handle it.

    Those types need to get outside and do some work. I bet if Mr. Kaczynski had been spending time improving the cabin, and raising all his own food, it'd have cleared his mind and made him somewhat happier. That's my prescription, and I wouldn't have even charged him for it.

    Dr. Achmed E. Newman, psychoanalyst-in-training

    He had his moments of levity.

    A North Dakota woman who worked at a Montana truck stop as a waitress with Kaczynski in 1974 when she was 19, recalled that Kaczynski wrote her three letters after she left.

    The first, she said, was “basically an invitation or a request for me to move to northern Canada and be his squaw.” She said the second letter “was more like a resume” in which Kaczynski told her he had graduated from Harvard and published scientific papers.

    The last letter was an official declaration of surrender from his previous wooing efforts.

    Read More
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  138. myself says:
    @denk

    The most wince-inducing aspect of this national trait is the frequent announcements out of Peking that some action by some foreign government—holding a meeting with the Dalai Lama, for example— has “hurt the feelings of the Chinese people.” Poor things! [Why so sensitive? A complete history of China’s ‘hurt feelings’, by David Bandurski, Hong Kong Free Press, January 29, 2016]
     
    [sic]

    Been dying to tell CCP,

    Bitching wins no wars.

    Dont get hurt, get even !

    Two can play at this game.

    High time China joins the 'civilised ' world and take up this 'human rights' mantra, its a growth industry , dont let the whiteys have the field all to themselves.

    The whiteys had a head start on the market but for reasons best known to themselves, their pet indulgence is exclusively on the cuddly Tibetans head bashers, Uighurs cut throats, NED Chinese poster boys.

    There'R stuffs that they wont touch with a ten feet pole....ever seen the Chagosians, Okinawans, Jeju islanders, Iraq DU victims, Apak drone survivers, Kashmiris, Nagas, Manipuris, Dalits, West Papuans, Achenese ....invited to a sumtuous lunch in the WH /Downing Street ?

    There's a vast untapped niche market out there waiting to be exploited.

    Chagosians, Nagas.... are the untouchable who have no voice, China should give them their voice., let them tell their stories to the world, with half the world's journos in attendance, live broadcast to the world, CCP can afford it ;-)

    Havent the whiteys been telling China to be a responsible member of the international community and do something for human rights, what is CCP waiting for ?

    hehehhehe

    Ever since at least the 1960s, so-called moral activism in the Western world has been primarily about the activist – his/her worth as a good human being, an enlightened soul, a paragon of virtue.

    Pretty obvious that these crusaders don’t care about the actual causes, or that there are real flesh and blood people for whom they may wish to be doing some good.

    Oh no, far more important to be SEEN and THOUGHT OF as good by one’s peers.

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    • Replies: @denk
    Those 'human rights activists' are nothing but witting/unwitting patsies
    serving fukus agenda.

    They'd fly 3000 miles to Beijing to protest on the Tibet rail way project, while real genocides were perpetrated at next door India's Tibet, a hand me down from the departing Brits.

    The NE 'chinkie faced' people suffered a double whammy under Indian rule

    At home, they groan under the brutal AFSPA 'anti insurgency law', a license to torture, kill, rape with impunity, another hand me down from the anglos.

    When NE folks go to the heartland to study or work, they'r singled out for racial violence and sexual assaults cuz they look like Chinese. Every other day there'r NE people getting beaten up, killed and gang raped in Delhi and other cities cuz their 'chinki look', low life rapists there especially have a fetish for fair skinned 'chinki faced' females.
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  139. @Achmed E. Newman
    Nah, no apology is necessary from you, but this was a story to illustrate corruption at the local level, as we have been discussing. As far as the Christianity aspect, see, I'm not sure they would have even brought that up (maybe that's devious, maybe not, cause, after all, it was not supposed to be a Church/Coffee shop/Bakery, as far as I know). I think they just figured they'd open it, introduce the Chinese to good baking*, and then discuss Christ with the customers.

    Back to another point - I just discussed Falun Gong with a Chinawoman, who does not have much political knowledge or interest. She agreed with you that, and used descriptions that would make it seem somewhere in between Jim Jone's Kool-Aid drinkers** and subversives like, say the antifa. So, I apologize for my lack of knowledge on this group. Is it true that hundreds of them burned themselves to death at Tienanmen Square? That's what I was told, but it's hard to get at the real truth, anywhere, these days.


    * As you know, there is not much knowledge of it. I mean, steamed bread, come TF on? ;-}

    ** Man, all this commenting is making me thirsty!

    Yes, some burned themselves to death. But more importantly, they organized significant numbers and tried to subvert the Party and daddy don’t take kindly to that, let’s just say. You don’t try to out-cancer the cancer, damn it.

    Its hard to find out what’s going on in China, to be honest. I consider Richard McGregor to be one of the Western sources on China and he explained it as such: “The West doesn’t try very hard to understand what’s going on inside of China, and the Party tries to be as obscure as possible.” It can make for a difficult combination.

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  140. myself says:
    @Weaver1
    Europe has 1000s year old expressions as well. For example, "Nothing in excess!"

    We just came to worship the Industrial Revolution, Enlightenment, simplistic ideologies, and "progress" rather than our own heritage.

    And like the Chinese, we've destroyed much of our history and heritage. Christianity and the change of language both reduced our historical memory. But we still have the Greeks and Romans.

    Confucius is wrong to entirely discourage foreign ideas. One can still learn from outsiders. It's just a disgrace that the Chinese currently place Marx, who was the lowest of the impious progress worshippers, before their own heritage. The Chinese still identify as "Communist"; as such, they dishonour their ancestors.

    Oh I agree, China calls itself “Communist” alright. They have the outer forms, they have the terms.

    But I think it was in 1989 when Alexander Solzhenitsyn toured parts of China, during a key moment in history: the Berlin Wall was about to fall, the Soviet Union was still formally whole, and China had just embarked on the Reform Era.

    What he said was something to the effect of “What I am seeing in action in China is not any kind of Communism I’ve ever seen in my life.”

    Point is, I would wager that present-day China is the country which is the least bound by any sort of dogma or ideology or indeed of any arbitrary self-conception.”We are good Communists or “We are a Republic and Democratic, etc” – said no Chinese in the last 30 years.

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  141. myself says:
    @Achmed E. Newman
    You may have missed my last sentence, Daniel ("BTW, ...." ) at the bottom. I agree that there has been corruption at the top level in probably every government, with the US as no exception. I would point back to the railroad construction era for that. One thing to remember is that the bigger the government is, the more area of life and industry it's involved in, the more flavors of corruption you can have. Going back just a half-century or so, the biggest thing was probably the long-term Senators (esp. in the South) making sure the big military bases got placedthere, or never shut down when they should have been. It took lots of effort, you may recall from 20-30 years ago, to make impartial (ha! maybe?) base-closure committees to get rid of redundancies.

    This is what people never seem to get about Libertarianism. Smaller government doesn't allow as many areas of corruption, hence fewer opportunities for big money to influence the whole show. The problem with the big banks/banksters is the ultimate example of how, hand-in-hand, corrupt big money men and big gov can destroy a country completely - it's just not finished yet.

    High level corruption, even when it exists, is felt less and causes less discord than low-level corruption.
     
    Yes, I agree, and that was my point. The low-level everyday stuff is means a lack of any trust in society besides within the family. That's how it is in China. That's NOT how it was everywhere, and still is in some places, in America. I don't think it's really a good idea to import lots of people from place where there is no societal trust, do you?

    (I don't mean a few people here and there, as assimlation does work for numbers like, say, 100,000 newcomers a year that don't all go to Dearbornistan or Chinatown or Los Angeles.)

    My personal experience in China is that there was almost no low- and mid-level corruption or bribery, at least in the cities. I never experienced any difficulties in residence changes, visa renewals, nor any kind of hint from anyone that giving gifts or “reciprocity” was expected or wanted. Chinese municipal areas are run as very tight ships.

    Life in China is simple as a private citizen. You got to know the rules, you followed them, everything went smoothly. If you didn’t follow them, things get hard for you.

    Now, that’s in the cities, at the low/mid levels of governance. Didn’t have a problem. Also noticed many restaurants had a “no tipping” rule – the waitresses returned tips, pointing out that they were not needed, nor allowed. Don’t know what was up with that. Maybe to discourage favoring certain customers over others? Level of service was always consistent, though.

    Out in rural areas, pretty sure there must be some bribery, “gift” giving and corruption. No idea of the extent.

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    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    That's just not the personal experience of Chinapeople I know, but I'm glad to hear your story. I will add that you're a Westerner, right, just trying to get by. Hell, you could be paying double, for all you know. I know that's how it goes at hotels, if you don't know how to bargain. (Yes, the lady from my bakery story was American, but I think that all was on a higher level, since she was a foreigner opening a business, vs. just a guy trying to live in China for a while.

    I know about the no tipping, but that brings up a funny story that took place in NYC Chinatown. I was buying a Chinese lady dinner there, and she said "well, this place is just like China, you don't have to tip." I didn't believe that at all, but she kept insisting. "OK, fine." (It was just $12 total).

    About 100 ft outside the restaurant door, the waitress caught up with us "Hey, you have to leave a tip, you know." or something. "You're Chinese, and we're in Chinatown", I said. "Everything is just like China." "No, this is New York." "Well, it's too late now!"

    Needless to say, we didn't go eat anywhere near that block on the rest of the trip, as the lady I was with was worried about expectoration, at the very least!
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  142. DB Cooper says:
    @John Derbyshire
    I don't know how you get that. I'd like the Chinese to restrict their territorial ambitions to metropolitan China, i.e. get the heck out of Tibet and Eastern Turkestan; but within that zone I'm happy for them t0 be as nationalist as they please.

    “I don’t know how you get that. I’d like the Chinese to restrict their territorial ambitions to metropolitan China, i.e. get the heck out of Tibet and Eastern Turkestan;”

    Standard clueless statement. Why don’t you ask India to get the hell out of South Tibet, which was invaded and annexed by India in 1951?

    Read More
    • Replies: @denk
    The anglos owes the SEVEN SISTERS big time,

    By my side is Yongkong, a Naga who has been in exile in London since the 1960s.

    He watches the film quietly; the villagers gathering to give their testimonies, one by one. A woman in white describes what the soldiers did to her children. A man, a rice grower, twists and turns as he re-enacts the various forms his own torture took – finally opening his mouth to the camera and showing the place where his teeth were before the Indian soldiers plucked them out with pliers.

    Testimony after testimony, the horrors unfold.

    A man describes how nails were driven into his eyes. There is plenty that people do not talk about in front of the camera. That comes out in written testimonies.

    Mass rape is used as a systematic weapon of abuse. People of both sexes are subjected to a humiliating public torture involving hanging upside down with chilli peppers inserted into their orifices

    Nagaland was simply handed over – or betrayed – by the departing British in 1947.

    ‘I started by telling them that as a British man I knew I was part of their problem and I was ashamed of this. It was my country that betrayed them in 1947 and was carrying on betraying them by failing to say anything about what was happening now.


    the British and Indian organizers of the trip have since warned the visitors not to speak to the press about their experiences as this could harm Anglo-Indian relations
     
    https://newint.org/features/1994/06/05/keynote
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  143. Corvinus says:
    @AaronB
    I hear you, Daniel. I am convinced humanity has no future.

    Like all species, ours will go extinct eventually. Our problems are intractable. Nationalism leads to war. Abandoning nationalism leads to destruction. There is no solution.

    I had this idea that humans "should" be good - I am forced to admit that I simply had the wrong idea about humans. That's just not the "kind" of animal we are. At what point can you no longer deny reality.

    Rather than being depressing such a reality check can be liberating. No longer hobbled by illusions, we can enjoy the ride while it lasts.

    There is a deep mystery at the bottom of the world, and the value of the world does not depend on the existence of humans.

    “I hear you, Daniel. I am convinced humanity has no future.”

    So you espouse a belief that people are essentially meaningless, and that life on earth is futile. Feel free to hold that opinion.

    “Like all species, ours will go extinct eventually.”

    MAY go, or COULD go, but not WILL. Your fatalism is duly noted.

    “Our problems are intractable. Nationalism leads to war. Abandoning nationalism leads to destruction. There is no solution.”

    Of course there are solutions. You are being ridiculous here.

    “I had this idea that humans “should” be good – I am forced to admit that I simply had the wrong idea about humans. That’s just not the “kind” of animal we are. At what point can you no longer deny reality.”

    The reality is that most people are good in a number of different ways. Whether or not they “should” be in each and every situation demonstrates our fallibility.

    “There is a deep mystery at the bottom of the world, and the value of the world does not depend on the existence of humans.”

    Thankfully, very few people on this Earth value your extreme skepticism, that nothing in the world has a real existence.

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    • Replies: @AaronB
    Not skepticism corvinus but a profound optimism.

    The two philosophical poles are - the world is composed of substance or it is a "process" without substance.

    Wars are fought because we think the world is composed of "things" that we must posses. That's the Western view and it's why the history of the West is extraordinarily violent.

    The old Chinese view is that the world is process devoid of substance, so what is there to posses? It led to a much more peaceful history.

    In the West, the idea that the world is devoid of substance has been seen as nihilism, but it can just as easily be seen as a joyful liberation from the fetters of "being" and an embrace of flux, as it has been on the old East.

    I look at the world and see its evil and wish to "eradicate" it, as if it were a "thing". I am trying to reach a permanent unchanging state, a utopia - utopian thinking is behind all the violence of the West. A state of eternal substance.

    A world of "things" (eternal substances), is a terribly important world where everything "matters" terribly much. We must fight over such a world with all our might, we must fight against all those who disagree with us, and all our efforts must be directed to control the "things" that compose the world according to our vision of the "good".

    By trying to reach a world of unchanging "good" I join the great fight over the world and become part of the unending conflict.

    When I say that our problems are intractable and humans destined for extinction I do not mean that any "thing" will go out of existence - since I see humans as process and not substance, I merely mean that a particular process will blend into other processes. Nothing will have been lost, because no "thing" existed in the first place.

    The world is endless flux.

    The "fluidity" of Chinese thinking comes from the old Chinese idea that the world isn't composed of eternal substances so there is no attempt to reach a final utopian state, so there is less fanaticism and bloodshed.

    It is also the fluidity of Jewish thinking, which I know well. You will often find in Jewish culture contradictory and multiple ideas expressed on the same topic with no attempt to reconcile them. Truth is "situatonal" and provisional and there is no concept of an underlying "thing".

    This trains the Jewish mind in extraordinary flexibility and dexterity because it does not make a fetish of the "truth, and it gives them a peculiar freedom whites do not posses and even allows them to run rings around more intelligent whites.

    Whites are forever defending some eternal "thing" which commits them to certain strategies they cannot deviate from.

    Making a fetish of the "truth" goes hand in hand with seeing the world as ultimately composed of eternal substances, a view the West got from Plato.

    When I say humans are incurably evil and not "good" I mean there is no ultimate unchanging state humans are destined for.

    Is this nihilism? Nihilism is the belief that we must be resued from eternal flux and find a permanent unchanging home, a Platonic idea.

    Nihilism only makes sense in a Western context - acceptance of flux as final renders the word meaningless.

    Both Jews and Asians do not take the world seriously because they do not look for permanence within it.

    The curious melancholy and oppressive sense of "unfreedom" that has characterized the West for many centuries now comes from seeking an underlying "thing" they can hold onto in what is a process of flux. It is utopian thinking.

    We must liberate ourselves from "morality" if we are to live well just as we must liberate ourselves from "evil".

    The problem with modern Jewish and Asian culture is that it is now in a state of half-liberation, and has come to take some things very seriously.

    The old Chinese culture was conducive to human well being but proved fragile. How impressive would Chinese culture seem to us if it had weathered the storm of its encounter with the West with a gigantic shrug, a temporary and provisional and flexible adaptation that vanished the moment the threat receded.

    However, signs are that China has been transformed by the West.

    But the West is not an eternal unchanging substance but merely a process that will eventually play itself out, and the current China is also just a process that must ultimately play itself out.

    And all of humanity with its wars and strife is just a process that will play itself out and merge into the great process of the world which will give rise to new and strange processes beyond humanity. But nothing will have been lost, and humans will in some sense still be around, because they never existed (as eternal substances) in the first place.

    Humans are just an episode in a story of endless flux and not the site of any special value.

    This vision of the world has no political value because it can never be accepted permanently by humanity - it itself is liable to flux. It is not a utopian project that if we could just learn to think this way humanity would be saved and we can usher in the millenium. The Chinese had it, then lost it.

    It is merely one possibility that will constantly appear and disappear as the flux goes it's way. At best it can provide personal liberation to individuals for a time.

    Buddhism will not save humanity because a process is in no need of saving. Individuals can find joyful liberation for a time by submitting to the flux and giving up their quest for a permanent utopian home.

    I do not exorct you corvinus to understand a single word I have written or give anything remotely resembling an intelligent reply.

    But your response is just another episode in a timeless flux and nothing hinges on it.
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  144. @myself
    My personal experience in China is that there was almost no low- and mid-level corruption or bribery, at least in the cities. I never experienced any difficulties in residence changes, visa renewals, nor any kind of hint from anyone that giving gifts or "reciprocity" was expected or wanted. Chinese municipal areas are run as very tight ships.

    Life in China is simple as a private citizen. You got to know the rules, you followed them, everything went smoothly. If you didn't follow them, things get hard for you.

    Now, that's in the cities, at the low/mid levels of governance. Didn't have a problem. Also noticed many restaurants had a "no tipping" rule - the waitresses returned tips, pointing out that they were not needed, nor allowed. Don't know what was up with that. Maybe to discourage favoring certain customers over others? Level of service was always consistent, though.

    Out in rural areas, pretty sure there must be some bribery, "gift" giving and corruption. No idea of the extent.

    That’s just not the personal experience of Chinapeople I know, but I’m glad to hear your story. I will add that you’re a Westerner, right, just trying to get by. Hell, you could be paying double, for all you know. I know that’s how it goes at hotels, if you don’t know how to bargain. (Yes, the lady from my bakery story was American, but I think that all was on a higher level, since she was a foreigner opening a business, vs. just a guy trying to live in China for a while.

    I know about the no tipping, but that brings up a funny story that took place in NYC Chinatown. I was buying a Chinese lady dinner there, and she said “well, this place is just like China, you don’t have to tip.” I didn’t believe that at all, but she kept insisting. “OK, fine.” (It was just $12 total).

    About 100 ft outside the restaurant door, the waitress caught up with us “Hey, you have to leave a tip, you know.” or something. “You’re Chinese, and we’re in Chinatown”, I said. “Everything is just like China.” “No, this is New York.” “Well, it’s too late now!”

    Needless to say, we didn’t go eat anywhere near that block on the rest of the trip, as the lady I was with was worried about expectoration, at the very least!

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  145. @Duke of Qin
    Why bother? I don't particularly care what the Koreans and Japanese do. As long as they aren't actively hostile and part of some subversive liberal coalition then they might as well be on Mars for all I care. Also subjugating others, especially stupid others, is a really bad idea. It is inevitably going to result in foreigners entering China in unprecedented numbers. This has happened before in China's past as it is happening to the West today. My Prime Directive is the survival of the Chinese race first and foremost. Beating up SE Asian Muslim isn't related to this goal, leave the quixotic crusading to the Americans.

    As for the final racial reckoning I honestly don't see it happening. The West isn't going to go down with a bang, rather it will die with a whimper. If they do summon the will to survive, then they won't be actually be a subversive threat. Just look at Poland, Hungary, Austria, and the Czech Republic. Really nothing good has ever happened with China's interactions with outsiders. Isolationism is really the best policy.

    “subjugating others… is a really bad idea. It is inevitably going to result in foreigners entering China in unprecedented numbers. This has happened before in China’s past”

    When was that?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Duke of Qin
    Biggest example was during the Tang and probably China's biggest mistake with multiculturalism. Back then the Chinese were much more xenophilic even compared to to the today, or at least the elites were. The Chinese expansion into Central Asia brought a slew of foreigners into China, primarily Turks and various Iranian peoples. Things were so bad that imperial capital was (well the Western one) was being turned into Londonistan light. Despite doomsayers cautioning against this, the Court was indifferent at best or actively hostile. These are loyal subjects you see and they have our best interests at heart! Long story short one of these foreigners social climbs his way into a governorship over the heart of North China. Things get so ridiculous that the man begins actively dismissing Han Chinese military officers under his command and replacing them with his coethnics and the gullible Chinese actually sign off and approve of these transfers. Stop me if this type of ethnic subversion sounds familiar. Unlike today though, they weren't content with merely controlling the Media apparatus and made a big play for the Army bureaucracy. Naturally this results in an ethnic coup attempt which is mistakenly labeled as a Civil War.
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  146. JJ says:
    @John Derbyshire
    I don't know how you get that. I'd like the Chinese to restrict their territorial ambitions to metropolitan China, i.e. get the heck out of Tibet and Eastern Turkestan; but within that zone I'm happy for them t0 be as nationalist as they please.

    The double standard and hypocrisy of some whites is unbelievable, and you are making your people look bad. If China needs to leave Tibet and Xinjjiang, then white people should get out of North America and Australia at the minimum.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    The double standard and hypocrisy of some chinese is unbelievable, and you are making your people look bad. If China shouldn't leave Tibet and Xinjjiang, then the British should recolonize India at a minimum.
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  147. Yee says:

    Unlike the Greeks, Chinese culture throughout history has been emphasizing agriculture and restraining commerce (重农抑商). Intellectuals> farmers> craftsman> merchants, was the line of importance for China. Merchants at the bottom. We have words for “evil merchant” (奸商), none for farmer or craftsman.

    Westerners should learn some basic about Chinese culture before they write anything about China. Focus on the least important group of people wouldn’t lead you to understand China.

    As aggressive as Chinese merchants are doing business around the world, you can bet that China’s real efforts will be put into actual productions. It’s a tradition.

    Merchants will not hold enough power to de-industrialize and financialize the economy.

    Read More
    • Replies: @myself
    Some westerners seem to equate the Chinese term Merchant with Businessman or Entrepreneur. That is simply not the case.

    I think, in the Chinese context, Merchant means broadly, "middleman". More specifically "speculator".
    People who interpose themselves between producers (such as artisans, farmers, tradesmen - those who actually create value) and consumers.

    The founder-CEOs of Alibaba, Tencent, Baidu etc. are not Merchants.

    Those who buy houses and land with the goal of flipping them (much harder to do now in China than in the West), as well as stock and financial instrument speculators, are Merchants.

    In China, Finance serves actual value production, not the other way around. Speculators are regarded as maybe one rung above Con-artists in the eyes of the public, if even that.
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  148. denk says:
    @John Derbyshire
    I don't know how you get that. I'd like the Chinese to restrict their territorial ambitions to metropolitan China, i.e. get the heck out of Tibet and Eastern Turkestan; but within that zone I'm happy for them t0 be as nationalist as they please.

    No,
    You first, John !

    USA.
    CANADA
    OZ
    NZ
    HAWAII
    GUAM
    PUERTO RICO
    DIEGO GARCIA,
    OKINAWA
    JEJU
    KOSOVO
    IRAQ
    AFGHANISTAN
    SYRIA
    ….
    LAST BUT NOT LEAST, INDIAN NE, AKA SOUTHERN TIBET
    THE TIBET THAT NO ANGLOS WANNA TALK ABOUT

    [PARTLY ROBBED BY THE BRITS AND BEQUEATHED TO THE INDIANS,
    PARTY GOBBLED UP BY INDIA AFTER ITS OWN INDEPENDENCE]

    Read More
    • Replies: @denk
    Hmmm
    Some Welsh guys prompted me to include some glaring omissions,,,.....

    Get the hell outta ,....

    WALES,

    IRELAND,

    SCOTLAND.

    !!!
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  149. denk says:
    @DB Cooper
    "I don’t know how you get that. I’d like the Chinese to restrict their territorial ambitions to metropolitan China, i.e. get the heck out of Tibet and Eastern Turkestan;"

    Standard clueless statement. Why don't you ask India to get the hell out of South Tibet, which was invaded and annexed by India in 1951?

    The anglos owes the SEVEN SISTERS big time,

    By my side is Yongkong, a Naga who has been in exile in London since the 1960s.

    He watches the film quietly; the villagers gathering to give their testimonies, one by one. A woman in white describes what the soldiers did to her children. A man, a rice grower, twists and turns as he re-enacts the various forms his own torture took – finally opening his mouth to the camera and showing the place where his teeth were before the Indian soldiers plucked them out with pliers.

    Testimony after testimony, the horrors unfold.

    A man describes how nails were driven into his eyes. There is plenty that people do not talk about in front of the camera. That comes out in written testimonies.

    Mass rape is used as a systematic weapon of abuse. People of both sexes are subjected to a humiliating public torture involving hanging upside down with chilli peppers inserted into their orifices

    Nagaland was simply handed over – or betrayed – by the departing British in 1947.

    ‘I started by telling them that as a British man I knew I was part of their problem and I was ashamed of this. It was my country that betrayed them in 1947 and was carrying on betraying them by failing to say anything about what was happening now.

    the British and Indian organizers of the trip have since warned the visitors not to speak to the press about their experiences as this could harm Anglo-Indian relations

    https://newint.org/features/1994/06/05/keynote

    Read More
    • Replies: @DB Cooper
    The hypocrisy of the West stinks to high heaven. Massive human rights abuse occur in Nagaland and the Northeast in India on a daily basis and the West say not a word. A few years ago Indian troops gun down hundreds of protesters in Kashmir on one day and the West mums not a word.
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  150. denk says:
    @myself
    Ever since at least the 1960s, so-called moral activism in the Western world has been primarily about the activist - his/her worth as a good human being, an enlightened soul, a paragon of virtue.

    Pretty obvious that these crusaders don't care about the actual causes, or that there are real flesh and blood people for whom they may wish to be doing some good.

    Oh no, far more important to be SEEN and THOUGHT OF as good by one's peers.

    Those ‘human rights activists’ are nothing but witting/unwitting patsies
    serving fukus agenda.

    They’d fly 3000 miles to Beijing to protest on the Tibet rail way project, while real genocides were perpetrated at next door India’s Tibet, a hand me down from the departing Brits.

    The NE ‘chinkie faced’ people suffered a double whammy under Indian rule

    At home, they groan under the brutal AFSPA ‘anti insurgency law’, a license to torture, kill, rape with impunity, another hand me down from the anglos.

    When NE folks go to the heartland to study or work, they’r singled out for racial violence and sexual assaults cuz they look like Chinese. Every other day there’r NE people getting beaten up, killed and gang raped in Delhi and other cities cuz their ‘chinki look’, low life rapists there especially have a fetish for fair skinned ‘chinki faced’ females.

    Read More
    • Replies: @DB Cooper
    Recently a five year old Tibetan girl was raped and beheaded by two Indian men in occupied South Tibet (so called Arunachal Pradesh). Just another typical day in occupied South Tibet and in India.

    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/india-young-girl-rape-murder-suspects-arunachal-pradesh-beaten-to-death/
    , @Alden
    I’ve read about those people who the Caucasian Indians dislike. Sorry, as a member of the untouchable persecuted White race in America I’m too busy trying to survive genicide by American liberals to help other persecuted ethnic groups.

    Here is what you should do to help those Asians in NE India. You don’t need to live in America to do it.

    1 Spend a few hundred USD to form a non profit educational charitable cooperation in an American state. Give it a name like save the whatever’s.

    2 hire a commission grant writer and fundraiser. There are tens of thousands of them in the USA. He or she will get grants from endless government agencies ( taxpayers) and other charitable educational foundations. The foundations exist to raise money and disburse the money to other foundations know as NGOs or non government organizations or grant hustlers or poverty pimps or cause people

    Charitable educational foundations are a big, big business in America.

    The grant writer will get the money, charge you a percentage and you get the rest of the money.

    3 use the money to hire a public relations agency to put articles about the persecution of Asian looking people in NE India. The American media is constantly on the lookout for politically correct minorities being persecuted by various governments.

    4 you’ll need to be very, very politically correct. Your public relations agency can write the press releases to be politically correct to appeal to the liberal press.

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  151. DB Cooper says:
    @denk
    Those 'human rights activists' are nothing but witting/unwitting patsies
    serving fukus agenda.

    They'd fly 3000 miles to Beijing to protest on the Tibet rail way project, while real genocides were perpetrated at next door India's Tibet, a hand me down from the departing Brits.

    The NE 'chinkie faced' people suffered a double whammy under Indian rule

    At home, they groan under the brutal AFSPA 'anti insurgency law', a license to torture, kill, rape with impunity, another hand me down from the anglos.

    When NE folks go to the heartland to study or work, they'r singled out for racial violence and sexual assaults cuz they look like Chinese. Every other day there'r NE people getting beaten up, killed and gang raped in Delhi and other cities cuz their 'chinki look', low life rapists there especially have a fetish for fair skinned 'chinki faced' females.

    Recently a five year old Tibetan girl was raped and beheaded by two Indian men in occupied South Tibet (so called Arunachal Pradesh). Just another typical day in occupied South Tibet and in India.

    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/india-young-girl-rape-murder-suspects-arunachal-pradesh-beaten-to-death/

    Read More
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  152. DB Cooper says:
    @denk
    The anglos owes the SEVEN SISTERS big time,

    By my side is Yongkong, a Naga who has been in exile in London since the 1960s.

    He watches the film quietly; the villagers gathering to give their testimonies, one by one. A woman in white describes what the soldiers did to her children. A man, a rice grower, twists and turns as he re-enacts the various forms his own torture took – finally opening his mouth to the camera and showing the place where his teeth were before the Indian soldiers plucked them out with pliers.

    Testimony after testimony, the horrors unfold.

    A man describes how nails were driven into his eyes. There is plenty that people do not talk about in front of the camera. That comes out in written testimonies.

    Mass rape is used as a systematic weapon of abuse. People of both sexes are subjected to a humiliating public torture involving hanging upside down with chilli peppers inserted into their orifices

    Nagaland was simply handed over – or betrayed – by the departing British in 1947.

    ‘I started by telling them that as a British man I knew I was part of their problem and I was ashamed of this. It was my country that betrayed them in 1947 and was carrying on betraying them by failing to say anything about what was happening now.


    the British and Indian organizers of the trip have since warned the visitors not to speak to the press about their experiences as this could harm Anglo-Indian relations
     
    https://newint.org/features/1994/06/05/keynote

    The hypocrisy of the West stinks to high heaven. Massive human rights abuse occur in Nagaland and the Northeast in India on a daily basis and the West say not a word. A few years ago Indian troops gun down hundreds of protesters in Kashmir on one day and the West mums not a word.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Alden
    Don’t blame the West, blame the liberal media which is more interested in hating White Europeans and Americans than reporting world news.
    , @denk
    FUKUSI[ndia] and human rights are oxymoron.

    To them its just a god damned game.


    When Blair goes to Delhi to talk business,

    nobody bludgeon him to raise the issue of the NE or Kashmir,
    None, nada, zero, zilch

    When Cameron visit Jakarta,

    nobody goads him to mention the West Papuans,Acehnese, oppressed Chinese minorities,,,,,,....


    When May pay homage to Washington,

    no hue and cry for her to 'stand up to the evil empire'

    But When any Brit politico goes to Beijing ,

    The guardian, everybody...have a field day,

    'Why no mention of Tibet, Liu Xiao Bo,....she's kowtowing to the Chinese' !



    .......
    Its always China. !

    See,
    UK = cradle of human rights, [ahem]
    US = world's oldest democracy [cough cough]
    INHDIA = world's largest democracy [;-)]

    But this triumvirate of virtuousness seem to hold the evil Chinese to a higher standard than themselves, !

    Talk about having their cake and eat it too ,

    heehhehe
    , @Malla

    The hypocrisy of the West stinks to high heaven.
     
    It is not as simple as that. For some reason, the West is scared of India, Just recently Canadian PM Justin Trudeau (a lefty whose dad opened the floodgates) was snubbed by the Indian government because it is believed that there are Sikh separatists in his cabinet. You see when British India was divided in between Hindus and Muslims, the Sikhs wanted out too with their own nation Khalistan. But Hindu dominated freedom fighting Indian National Congress fought it out with the British Indian government and threatened mass action and strikes if Sikhs were given their own land.
    later on Sikhs did fight a separatist war with India in the Punjab state and many Sikhs in Canada supported this movement. Canada has a huge Sikh population.
    Recently because there are separatist Sikhs in Trudeau's cabinet, he was snubbed by the Indian government. Funny how a lefty who stands for darkie migration got snubbed by a nationalist darkie country. Lefty libtards are jokers.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTK46Ee9RKo

    Justin Trudeau Snubbed? No, Says Delhi


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fi6xw8qUKmo

    Is Trudeau getting snubbed by India's Prime Minister?

    I had read a book many days ago written by a Royal Canadian Mounted Police officer who in his investigations found India's RAW (India's version of CIA/MI6/KGB) being very active in Canada working against the Sikh separatists, even orchestrating false flag crimes which were blamed on the Sikh separatists. The Indian government wanted the populations of the West to have a negative image of Sikh separatists as crazy psycho terrorists. When he reported this to his higher ups, his investigation was suppressed by higher up Canadian authorities! Canada did not want to be on the bad books of India! This is even though India stole radioactive material from a Canadian built civilian nuclear reactor (after promising not to do so) in India for it's own nuclear weapons tests.

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  153. utu says:

    IMO the theories about (1) tea India vs. China and (2) opium with sesame seeds are total BS.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Interesting if you were to elaborate. Still I am prompted to take an interest in how the subcontinent took over a naturally China based tea exporting business. Mind you there are plenty of interesting stories of that kind like merino wool in Australia and rubber outside Brazil. The details of opium production, trading snd use would be interesting but I don't expect to get round to reading big books on it.
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  154. @Daniel Chieh
    I know Russians of all political persuasions. Yet, amazingly, not one of them feels persuaded morally that Chechnya or Crimea should not be part of their country(I'm sure some exist, just not in my circle). And yet you seem so surprised that Chinese of various political persuasions have equally little fervor in splitting up their country.

    Whataboutism is boring, so I won't go there. But it should be obvious that going around encouraging separatism in a country might find that idea rejected, especially separatism to create mutually hostile neighbors.

    One might even suspect ulterior motives there.

    I don’t think derb would be happy till chinese are groveling at his feet :) with his superior genes and all :) a chinese civil war and chinese killing each other is probably his wet dream.

    and so many retarded serpenza video links in the comments. the guy is literally cancer to actual knowledge and information.

    Read More
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  155. Alden says:
    @Anonymous
    The Holocaust is a tremendous black mark against western civilisation. It's the worst crime in recorded history and invalidates any western pretensions of superiority over anyone else.

    The worst crime in western history was the Jewish communist holomodor, gulag and other vicious things the Jews did to destroy Russia and Central Europe.

    Affirmative action is the second most eeee vvviiii lllll thing that has ever happened in the history of the earth.

    The third most evil affront to the eye is those god awful hideous 99 cent store looking white vertical blinds in residential housing. Offices are where we suffer all day to earn a living. So those supremely ugly vertical blinds are ok because work is horrible anyway.

    But what possessed contractors and landlords and sellers to put those horrible things in homes and apartments? Who invented those horrors? De debbil made dem do it.

    Drab beige, gray and mud green carpet and furnishings combined with White walls is the 4th most evil thing that has ever happened.

    Beets and eggplant and slimy artificial meat Subway sandwiches should be added to things that should not exist.

    Read More
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  156. Alden says:
    @DB Cooper
    The hypocrisy of the West stinks to high heaven. Massive human rights abuse occur in Nagaland and the Northeast in India on a daily basis and the West say not a word. A few years ago Indian troops gun down hundreds of protesters in Kashmir on one day and the West mums not a word.

    Don’t blame the West, blame the liberal media which is more interested in hating White Europeans and Americans than reporting world news.

    Read More
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  157. Alden says:
    @denk
    Those 'human rights activists' are nothing but witting/unwitting patsies
    serving fukus agenda.

    They'd fly 3000 miles to Beijing to protest on the Tibet rail way project, while real genocides were perpetrated at next door India's Tibet, a hand me down from the departing Brits.

    The NE 'chinkie faced' people suffered a double whammy under Indian rule

    At home, they groan under the brutal AFSPA 'anti insurgency law', a license to torture, kill, rape with impunity, another hand me down from the anglos.

    When NE folks go to the heartland to study or work, they'r singled out for racial violence and sexual assaults cuz they look like Chinese. Every other day there'r NE people getting beaten up, killed and gang raped in Delhi and other cities cuz their 'chinki look', low life rapists there especially have a fetish for fair skinned 'chinki faced' females.

    I’ve read about those people who the Caucasian Indians dislike. Sorry, as a member of the untouchable persecuted White race in America I’m too busy trying to survive genicide by American liberals to help other persecuted ethnic groups.

    Here is what you should do to help those Asians in NE India. You don’t need to live in America to do it.

    1 Spend a few hundred USD to form a non profit educational charitable cooperation in an American state. Give it a name like save the whatever’s.

    2 hire a commission grant writer and fundraiser. There are tens of thousands of them in the USA. He or she will get grants from endless government agencies ( taxpayers) and other charitable educational foundations. The foundations exist to raise money and disburse the money to other foundations know as NGOs or non government organizations or grant hustlers or poverty pimps or cause people

    Charitable educational foundations are a big, big business in America.

    The grant writer will get the money, charge you a percentage and you get the rest of the money.

    3 use the money to hire a public relations agency to put articles about the persecution of Asian looking people in NE India. The American media is constantly on the lookout for politically correct minorities being persecuted by various governments.

    4 you’ll need to be very, very politically correct. Your public relations agency can write the press releases to be politically correct to appeal to the liberal press.

    Read More
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  158. @Daniel Chieh
    I know Russians of all political persuasions. Yet, amazingly, not one of them feels persuaded morally that Chechnya or Crimea should not be part of their country(I'm sure some exist, just not in my circle). And yet you seem so surprised that Chinese of various political persuasions have equally little fervor in splitting up their country.

    Whataboutism is boring, so I won't go there. But it should be obvious that going around encouraging separatism in a country might find that idea rejected, especially separatism to create mutually hostile neighbors.

    One might even suspect ulterior motives there.

    I know Russians of all political persuasions. Yet, amazingly, not one of them feels persuaded morally that Chechnya or Crimea should not be part of their country

    You sure about Chechnya? I’m pretty sure the Russian right wants out of Chechnya.

    Read More
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  159. Alden says:
    @Duke of Qin
    Why bother? I don't particularly care what the Koreans and Japanese do. As long as they aren't actively hostile and part of some subversive liberal coalition then they might as well be on Mars for all I care. Also subjugating others, especially stupid others, is a really bad idea. It is inevitably going to result in foreigners entering China in unprecedented numbers. This has happened before in China's past as it is happening to the West today. My Prime Directive is the survival of the Chinese race first and foremost. Beating up SE Asian Muslim isn't related to this goal, leave the quixotic crusading to the Americans.

    As for the final racial reckoning I honestly don't see it happening. The West isn't going to go down with a bang, rather it will die with a whimper. If they do summon the will to survive, then they won't be actually be a subversive threat. Just look at Poland, Hungary, Austria, and the Czech Republic. Really nothing good has ever happened with China's interactions with outsiders. Isolationism is really the best policy.

    Hi there, your Grace, haven’t heard from you in a while. You always have interesting things to say.

    Read More
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  160. Alden says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    The modern world is on the other hand a wild dangerous place, filled with wildly different peoples and sundry barbarians with grossly different values. I would be more positive if I thought the Chinese race were stronger, but we aren’t....This is where I heartily disagree, the best way to safeguard the Chinese now, as then, is heavily armed isolationism. Triple the defense budget, more nukes, ships, more jets and zero emigration or immigration. Basically buy our shit, stay out, and leave us the hell alone, a historically relevant policy worth emulating.
     
    Oh and that worked out SO well last time.

    If we cannot survive in competition, then we do not deserve to survive.

    Maybe his excellency is right. It’s my opinion that both China and the United States have enough people, territory, resources and different climate that both countries could do very well with isolationism. Both countries can grow their own food and produce just about everything they need.

    Although China needs to import oil and gasoline no? Both countries should take care of themselves. America invaded the world militarily while China invades the world with cheap garbage that falls apart and poisonous dog food.

    American made furnaces, hot water heaters, stoves refrigators and other neccisities lasted 30 years. Your Chinese garbage breaks down in 10 or less.

    Most people think China can’t produce durable major purchase goods like furnaces. I think China makes garbage that falls apart so quickly to keep creating sales of the neccisities like furnaces stoves hot water heaters etc.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Duke of Qin
    Consumer durables today are really not so durable, but relative to incomes they are an order of magnitude cheaper than the good old days. The ultimate person responsible for this is the consumer. They demand cheaper. The manufacturer provides it. There are product engineers whose whole job is to "optimize" a product by removing material to save costs and shipping. Durability suffers but that's OK. It may last half as long but it's a quarter of the price and more importantly the consumer gets to experience that delirious high of buying something shiny and new.

    You want something well made and that will last? Expect to pay through the nose. Not just big name brand levels of expensive who are just as skin flint as any mass market manufacturer but more along the lines of $700 for a fruit juicer expensive. Want furniture that's not pleather and particleboard? Expect to pay 10x what major retailers charge.
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  161. Alden says:
    @denk

    The most wince-inducing aspect of this national trait is the frequent announcements out of Peking that some action by some foreign government—holding a meeting with the Dalai Lama, for example— has “hurt the feelings of the Chinese people.” Poor things! [Why so sensitive? A complete history of China’s ‘hurt feelings’, by David Bandurski, Hong Kong Free Press, January 29, 2016]
     
    [sic]

    Been dying to tell CCP,

    Bitching wins no wars.

    Dont get hurt, get even !

    Two can play at this game.

    High time China joins the 'civilised ' world and take up this 'human rights' mantra, its a growth industry , dont let the whiteys have the field all to themselves.

    The whiteys had a head start on the market but for reasons best known to themselves, their pet indulgence is exclusively on the cuddly Tibetans head bashers, Uighurs cut throats, NED Chinese poster boys.

    There'R stuffs that they wont touch with a ten feet pole....ever seen the Chagosians, Okinawans, Jeju islanders, Iraq DU victims, Apak drone survivers, Kashmiris, Nagas, Manipuris, Dalits, West Papuans, Achenese ....invited to a sumtuous lunch in the WH /Downing Street ?

    There's a vast untapped niche market out there waiting to be exploited.

    Chagosians, Nagas.... are the untouchable who have no voice, China should give them their voice., let them tell their stories to the world, with half the world's journos in attendance, live broadcast to the world, CCP can afford it ;-)

    Havent the whiteys been telling China to be a responsible member of the international community and do something for human rights, what is CCP waiting for ?

    hehehhehe

    Wouldn’t that cause a war between India and China. Lots of wars have started because country A took up the cause of a persecuted minority in country B.

    Or is that what you want, a war with China grabbing that part of NE India?

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  162. Alden says:
    @The Wobbly Guy
    Lol, this reply didn't even make sense. Most Singaporean chinese were descended from South China provincials seeking a way out from the chaos that was endemic throughout the 19th and 20th century. Don't really get where the 300 years of enslaving, killing blah blah blah came from.

    Unless it's referring to the Taiping Rebellion, where we chinese killed far more of ourselves. In fact, looking at Chinese history, the most frequent killers of chinese were other chinese.

    Don't really get the borrowed money part either. On the whole, Sg is a creditor nation.

    10 million died in the Taiping rebellion. Farms, towns and workshops and factories, shipping, wagons, bridges horses and mules were all destroyed leaving a wasteland.

    A lot of the refugees ended up all over Indonesia, the Philippines and got to California a little before the Gold Rush. A lot of the old California Chinese are descended from them.

    Most western histories of China don’t even mention it. 2 retarded emperors in a row didn’t help either.

    China has had its ups and downs. It’s on a roll right now. Every country has its cycle.

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  163. Alden says:
    @J L
    " we do aim for long term advantages and customer relationships as inculcated by our western upbringing, although we also lapse all too frequently into our genetic heritage."

    Yes, we know. You have 300 year of glory of enslaving, pillaging, and mass murdering. Your time is up. Your advantage is gone, and you are trying to hold others at your gun (canon)point with borrowed money. It is part of your barbaric western heritage, and your genetic heritage only shows others how clueless you are.

    Might be a good idea to define what country you’re writing about. China???

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  164. @anon
    "What's wrong with us"?

    I have been asking myself that very question for a long time. Canada, Australia, New Zealand & the USA were all settled and developed by white peoples. Why they have permitted such massive demographic changes, which would have horrified previous generations, is something I simply cannot understand. We were told that Canada couldn't "function" in the British commonwealth & the UN with a (more or less) white only immigration policy. Why Canada couldn't have just left these pointless and moribund organiations I don't understand. I personally suspect it had something to do with vote-hunting by the Liberal party (please substitute the party of the left in the other places).

    I can only speak for Australia.
    The analogy of boilng the frog comes to mind.
    Prior to WWII there was very minimal non-anglo immigration. (Tiny Chinese community- active official racism)
    After WWII we under went the ” populate or perish” government policy. Active government encouragement of immigration from the UK …AND Italy, Greece etc. This proved something bof a culture shock.
    However, by the 70′s that immigration had been digested…. just in time for the flood of Vietnamese refugees. This was felt to be a moral obligation not ideology. Then came the Lebanese & political correctness in the late 70-80′s. After that: open slather, full throttle PC, no holds barred. So — 2018….

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  165. I wonder if a book exists written by a Chinese with the title ‘What is wrong with the west ?’.
    The title of the book reminds me of Bernard Lewis book, I never read it, about Islam ‘What went wrong ?’, or something like that.
    Wrong is not an objective word or idea, it is subjective.
    A Syrian migrant in the Netherlands is reported to want four wives, we think this wrong, he does not.

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  166. Alden says:

    Lords of the Rim by Sterling Seagrave is an excellent book about China.

    . Seagrave comes from a family that lived in China since the mid 19th century raising tea. So he is knowledgeable. The book covers the last thousand years of Chinese history. But the major part is about how and why the Chinese have always left China to spread all over E. Asia

    He’s written other books about China. Of course I don’t know that much about China to really judge his accuracy. But he writes about China, not China and the west like most non Chinese do.

    Seagrave thinks the reason the Chinese spread all over the world is because the Chinese governments were often tax gouging , bribe demanding dictators at every level. So the Chinese fled when the governments were nasty and stayed when the governments were decent.

    I don’t know if any Chinese agree with Seagrave but his book seems very knowledge to me.

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  167. Alden says:
    @Jason Liu
    C'mon man, that's cartoonish. We don't live in the Warring States era.

    Better to slowly shift the global culture away from western liberal norms into something more suited to nationalism, which would better safeguard Chinese (and other) identities over the long run.

    Why can’t China be China and let the culture of the West alone? I doubt you realize how strong insane liberal culture in the West is.

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    • Replies: @Jason Liu
    I'd like that, but the west is on a moral crusade to spread its values everywhere. Just read this article from the NYT, written by a frumpy feminist:

    https://nytimes.com/2018/02/20/opinion/china-women-birthrate-rights.html

    Listen to the condescending tone, the use of liberal 'women's rights' rhetoric to undermine China's efforts at fixing its aging population.

    Liberal democracy is the most hegemonic political ideology in history. Despite what Duke of Qin says, withdrawing from the world and playing turtle forever is not a sustainable solution. We must go on the offensive, and change international norms until liberal culture is either dismantled, permanently diluted, or at least stops encroaching on non-western countries.

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  168. @anon
    "What's wrong with us"?

    I have been asking myself that very question for a long time. Canada, Australia, New Zealand & the USA were all settled and developed by white peoples. Why they have permitted such massive demographic changes, which would have horrified previous generations, is something I simply cannot understand. We were told that Canada couldn't "function" in the British commonwealth & the UN with a (more or less) white only immigration policy. Why Canada couldn't have just left these pointless and moribund organiations I don't understand. I personally suspect it had something to do with vote-hunting by the Liberal party (please substitute the party of the left in the other places).

    In an authoritarian state, the government can move right on economic issues while staying conservative on social issues like immigration. You can’t seem to do this in a western democracy. If you shift right on economic issues you end up having to shift left on a range of social issues. Conversely, if you want to push some conservative social policies you need to push left on the economic front to attract the working and lower-middle class.

    Since the economic shift to the right in the late 1970s, there has been a decreasing amount of political space to push right-wing social policies and views. Trump has move the Overton window a little to the right, but if his rhetoric about helping the white working class rings hollow, then the window will shift left again.

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  169. Alden says:
    @Duke of Qin
    Nice guys finish last. Chinese shouldn't become "nicer", they need to get meaner. Atavism is the word of the day and they need to embrace "meanness" to survive in an ever darker world. I've seen the behavior of the so-called "nice" Chinese; deracinated compradors with fertility rates below 1 whose primary desire is overpriced real estate and cargo culting the West and miscegenating themselves into oblivion. In other words, an evolutionary dead end. Ill take Henan peasant over Shanghai cosmopolitan any day of the week and twice on Sundays. One of the good things about the Communist Party is that they have universalized Chinese nationalism to no longer be the exclusive realm of educated elites. Next step is to foster a siege mentality of us against the world and project that "meanness" against outsiders. Race War Now.

    Do you live in China? Do you know anyone in the people’s congress, the state council, high ranking military or members of the central committee of the communist party?

    Would a newspaper or magazine print your plans for China? You can start a website. Why would China want to go to war with any country? You are now and throughout history supreme in Asia. India and the west are too far away to harm China. I suppose China could invade Russia but why?????

    China has a nice solid chunk of territory. You have no need to expand. You make practically everything and the world is thrilled to buy it. China is the workshop of the world.

    Why would China want to start a war and with whom?

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    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    No, he could be prosecuted for hate speech in China or more specifically, "Han chauvinism." Such actions promote separatism, which is the Party has pretty firm opinions about.
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  170. myself says:
    @Yee
    Unlike the Greeks, Chinese culture throughout history has been emphasizing agriculture and restraining commerce (重农抑商). Intellectuals> farmers> craftsman> merchants, was the line of importance for China. Merchants at the bottom. We have words for "evil merchant" (奸商), none for farmer or craftsman.

    Westerners should learn some basic about Chinese culture before they write anything about China. Focus on the least important group of people wouldn't lead you to understand China.

    As aggressive as Chinese merchants are doing business around the world, you can bet that China's real efforts will be put into actual productions. It's a tradition.

    Merchants will not hold enough power to de-industrialize and financialize the economy.

    Some westerners seem to equate the Chinese term Merchant with Businessman or Entrepreneur. That is simply not the case.

    I think, in the Chinese context, Merchant means broadly, “middleman”. More specifically “speculator”.
    People who interpose themselves between producers (such as artisans, farmers, tradesmen – those who actually create value) and consumers.

    The founder-CEOs of Alibaba, Tencent, Baidu etc. are not Merchants.

    Those who buy houses and land with the goal of flipping them (much harder to do now in China than in the West), as well as stock and financial instrument speculators, are Merchants.

    In China, Finance serves actual value production, not the other way around. Speculators are regarded as maybe one rung above Con-artists in the eyes of the public, if even that.

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  171. Bill P says:
    @Duke of Qin
    Nice guys finish last. Chinese shouldn't become "nicer", they need to get meaner. Atavism is the word of the day and they need to embrace "meanness" to survive in an ever darker world. I've seen the behavior of the so-called "nice" Chinese; deracinated compradors with fertility rates below 1 whose primary desire is overpriced real estate and cargo culting the West and miscegenating themselves into oblivion. In other words, an evolutionary dead end. Ill take Henan peasant over Shanghai cosmopolitan any day of the week and twice on Sundays. One of the good things about the Communist Party is that they have universalized Chinese nationalism to no longer be the exclusive realm of educated elites. Next step is to foster a siege mentality of us against the world and project that "meanness" against outsiders. Race War Now.

    In my experience, the “Henan peasant” (Hebei actually — I never spent time in Henan) was a lot nicer than the cutthroat real estate shark. Chinese peasants are some of the best people I’ve ever known. Generous, friendly, hospitable, humble, diligent, etc.

    In a sense I agree with the early Chinese communists in that China’s system was based on the exploitation of these people and gave them very little in return. However, despite decades of communism, things don’t seem to have changed, and that certainly isn’t the fault of Westerners.

    China’s biggest problem is philosophical. To the Chinese, this world and the ideal world are sort of parallel universes that aren’t directly connected to each other. To Westerners, what we do in this world is directly connected to an ideal outcome.

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  172. Lin says:
    @John Derbyshire
    I don't know how you get that. I'd like the Chinese to restrict their territorial ambitions to metropolitan China, i.e. get the heck out of Tibet and Eastern Turkestan; but within that zone I'm happy for them t0 be as nationalist as they please.

    >>get the heck out of Tibet and Eastern Turkestan<<
    Why? Tibetans reap much economical benefits from rest of china and the homo-pedo lama theocracy which encamped something like 1/4 to 1/3 of Tibetan males was dismantled. Tibet economy will collapse overnight without china; just how well off are the Dalai's boys in India,eh?
    Nor will China allow Tibet to be controlled by US or india military bases.
    As with Xinjiang, are you, a self-proclaimed 'china hand' not know that China has a long history in central asia, as long as the Urghurs? The original inhabitants of Xinjiang were not Turkic Urghurs, actually a Persian speaking people, still there, numbered in 10s of 1000s the last time I checked their numbers.
    ……
    One more interesting bit, the semi-legendary Chinese heroine Hua Mulan was actually not a Han. She was the daughter of a non-han military chief who served the Chinese king/emperor in that part of central asia. I personally suspect 'Hua' is a local phonetical translation of 'Farsi'. Likely Mulan was ethnic Persian.
    ………
    I must remember you the limey imperial design on Tibet could only exists in the form of internet babble

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    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
    I never understand chinese posters. why do you always defend? learn to attack stupid writings like that.

    if china should give up those 2 areas, usa should give up it's land in it's entirety. all the white people in asian countries should gtfo too. qing chinese empire's conquest of tibet was before the founding of usa :)

    see, a simple attack that throws hypocrisy like that into their faces. rub it into their faces. make it bleed.

    I don't attack derb much because I consider him to be a sad, scared, old man who is just watching out for the white heritage. but as a chinese, you can :)
    , @Bombercommand
    Hua is a Chinese given name, a girl's name. In English she would be Harmony.
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  173. llloyd says: • Website

    China where I have lived for eight years certainly has its faults. I have gone nuts myself a few times of which I am heartily ashamed. The good thing about China is a culture where the Government sincerely tries to improve the living standards of the entire population maybe minus migrant workers who conveniently disappear out of the statistics. The Government system views its legitimacy not by winning elections but by material general progress. I consider a truly diabolical Government has never existed in China. Chinese culture ensures social order by tranquillity. If it does break down, it becomes simply banditry. So no Pizzagates in reality or urban legend.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    No "truly diabolical government" ever existed in China! Really? Wasn't the government of the first emperor about as diabolical as is imaginable in a civilised country? It ended pretty quickly when his younger son grabbed the inheritance by murdering his older brother and then creating the circumstances in which the Han dynasty began and lasted several hundred years.....).
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  174. I like how a number of commentators here have not been gamed using the reciprocity effect.

    Some white author will do a so called “nuanced” article about China and then some people feel the need to reciprocate because compared to the other all negative pieces authors, so they feel he should be cut some slack or worse, he is a friend who could educated without realising they just got gamed.

    A person offering you pure poison to consume is not worse than the one offering you poisoned wagyu steak.

    Bravo fellas!

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  175. @Achmed E. Newman
    (Sorry for all the very late replies, Daniel and Jason - I ran out of time yesterday.)

    The American founders in NO WAY figured that women were ever going to be voting in elections. This nefarious idea came in to being a century ago. I have not read very much about it, because it digusts me, but I am starting to wonder who was behind this "suffrage" crap.

    You keep mentioning "democracy", Daniel, but that was not the type of government this country was founded as.

    Ha! Democracy!!! that hallowed piece of crap that provides Uncle Sam (or is it Uncle Schlomo??) to bomb the crap out of many countries!

    Nice to see it crumbling in the belly of the beast I left quite a white ago!

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    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    Reading comprehension, dude... it's not just for big-character posters.
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  176. wayfarer says:

    The strongest governments on earth cannot clean up pollution by themselves. They must rely on each ordinary person, like you and me, on our choices, and on our will. – Chai Jing

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    • Replies: @denk
    kid,

    We are talking about India merely cuz its a perfect foil to highlight anglo hypocrisy./perfidy,
    this is not a mud slinging fest,
    So I dont see whats your point ?

    But if you'r interested,

    Here'r some ref, defintely more authoritative than youtube videos, [sic]
    if you see what I mean,
    hhhhhhh

    https://theconversation.com/delhi-should-follow-beijings-example-in-tackling-air-pollution-89378


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/destinations/asia/india/articles/delhi-most-polluted-city-in-the-world/
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  177. Looking through the reactions here I wonder what is being discussed.

    In my usual immodest opinion it is quite simple, the Chinese in power realised that if they kept the centrally controlled economy, they would go the way of the communist leaders of the USSR.

    The USSR leaders never realised, until maybe it was too late, that a centrally controlled economy cannot produce the consumer goods the consumer wants.
    When tv and radio taught the USSR masses that their counterparts in the west had houses, cars and refrigerators, they wanted these things too.
    It led to the end of communist rule, for what is was worth.

    The Chinese communist leaders realised that they also would be swept away, unless they let the profit motive in, to a certain extent.
    A Dutch woman representing Dutch universities in China once explained ‘the Chinese do not bother about democracy, as long as they are ruled well’.
    One cannot eat democracy.

    Of course, liberating the economy to a certain extent brings political tensions, some in China do not accept the rule by a party oligarchy.
    I wonder what part of the population they are.

    What we now see more and more in the EU is the opposite ‘what is wrong with the EU ?.
    Those in power tell us all the time that things are going better and better, alas very few experience that, maybe half are of the opinion that things are getting worse and worse.
    And yet, we can vote.
    At the last EU elections 30% voted, I never did.

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  178. @The Wobbly Guy
    And because of that, Singaporeans are usually derided by other chinese for being too naive - we do aim for long term advantages and customer relationships as inculcated by our western upbringing, although we also lapse all too frequently into our genetic heritage.

    As the common saying goes, "台湾人无耻,香港人无情,大陆人无耻又无情,新加坡人无知."

    Translated - Taiwanese are shameless, Hong Kongers are merciless, Mainlanders are shameless and merciless, and Singaporeans are ignorant/naive/stupid.

    Look here now, aren’t you buying into the Western kool aid that quality, being concerned about one’s reputation, etc, is something that can only found in Western cultures, or some variant of it is mostly like that in the West but only sometimes like that in China…

    That there are Singaporeans thinking like you shows the negative effects of British Colonialism. Singaporeans (Chinese) do say they kept the best British culture while the UK is now full of chavs and the like while retaining their Chinese heritage which I largely agree. But it also seems to made ‘you guys’ more susceptible to Western propaganda at perhaps an unconscious level.

    Correct me if I am wrong, but I doubt that 名誉 is a Japanese loan word/term from the last century.

    I suppose there is a certain amount of resentment that China is eating Singapore lunch at at increasing pace. But Lee Kuan Yew anticipated this would be so and said so like 30 years when he said Singapore needed to become a knowledge economy to hold it’s own against China. And you guys are still trying to be one. But it’s not China’s fault that the 2 Prime Ministers after him lacked his execution ability or the benefit of having Albert Winsemius as his Zhugeliang and his plans failed to come about.

    If anything, Singapore or perhaps more accurately, the PAP should learn to pragmatic and accept things and see if there is a way to make the most of things as you guys would say. I mean in spite of Lee Hsien Loong, top CPC cadres are still sent to NTU right?

    Anyway, gong xi fa cai and so on and so forth…

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    • Replies: @TT
    Wobbly comment is correct in a sense for general stereotype, but wording can be less provoking imho.

    There was a saying around 1990's that:
    Every law abiding ignorant Sporean into China biz, all get cheated empty.
    Every HKie into China biz, 50% loss, 50% win as equally street smart.
    Every Taiwanese into China biz, all mainland Chinese get cheated empty. In actual facts many Taiwanese also lost badly, juz lesser.

    There were many news about how shrewd Taiwanese business men swindled mainland Chinese, some even using brutal triads. These are history now i think. But street smart Taiwanese are really make to success in such lawless business environment, even outwitting China gov into swindled their bank loan with fake factory setup and transactions to transmit out the fund tightly controlled by CPC.

    And because of that, Singaporeans are usually derided by other chinese for being too naive – we do aim for long term advantages and customer relationships as inculcated by our western upbringing, although we also lapse all too frequently into our genetic heritage.
     
    China urgently needs to start going for high quality and customer relationship now as economy already reach sufficient level that failed State Owned Enterprise SOE that produced junks can phased out without destabilizing whole society. Every country went through this path, Japan was famous as日本= 一日够本 (product worth a day), but it embraced Lee's quality theory to bcom top premium quality (declining now). The world incl you mainland Chinese are all too irritated by China poor quality products.
    , @TT

    But it also seems to made ‘you guys’ more susceptible to Western propaganda at perhaps an unconscious level.
     
    Anti-China mentality is common among uninformed Singaporean i observed, esp the younger generation leaders & people that are totally fed with Western Koolaid since born, adoring West blindly to hate China everything. Now gov is trying to improve on Chinese education with China ascending, but Western msm have monopolized all media, sinophobe is obvious in SG newspaper.

    I suppose there is a certain amount of resentment that China is eating Singapore lunch at at increasing pace. But Lee Kuan Yew anticipated this would be so and said so like 30 years when he said Singapore needed to become a knowledge economy to hold it’s own against China. And you guys are still trying to be one. But it’s not China’s fault that the 2 Prime Ministers after him lacked his execution ability or the benefit of having Albert Winsemius as his Zhugeliang and his plans failed to come about.
     
    Why would Spore need resentment towards China? Every Sporean with slight intelligent know its China butter their bread, and their future prosperity insurance, consider that long time strategic relationship carefully nurtured since LKY & Deng time, with Spore unconditionally providing China with all FDI & knowledge/skills transfer/training.

    China would want a prosperous Spore as Asean partner for sure at that strategic location, their smart leaders are still awaiting for PM LHL to sober up to reality or next better PM. With foreign Indians now occupying every high post in gov, it seem remote unless a real 3rd gen leader appear which is even more impossible under LHL.

    Nepotism destroyed best leaders to surface on merits. Many see that 2nd PM Goh CT was merely a seat warmer for LKY son, 3rd PM LHL to ascend. LHL cause damage to the country with many talented leaders, admin & civil head left. A weak leader will not tolerate anyone better than him.

    But overall, the gov still perform excellent comparatively to the world clowns circus now. And Spore itself has reached a stable system that will still work as long the leader don't screw up too much.

    the benefit of having Albert Winsemius as his Zhugeliang and his plans failed to come about.
     
    I never heard Albert was Spore Zhugeliang. But Spore BEST Zhugl ex-DPM Dr Goh Keng Swee was head hunted by DengXP since 1980's. The real brain in making what Spore success, from Finance, JTC Industrial Park, HDB public housing, CPF fund, Asean best army force, ....every impossible missions. LKY highly praised GKS as the man that is more capable than him to task for every most important missions.

    But LKY do kept as many talents as he could as think tank. As he said, a real leader need not able to do everything, but he must able to attract the best and know who is best to do what. Probably he learnt much from ancient China Emperor wisdom & Confucianism.

    Still he commented, China has the world best think tank, they know your country better than you, and come with a irresistible proposal that what they can give and what they need which you can offer. So we can see many countries fall into China partnership eagerly that FukusIndia are out to sabotage.


    新年快乐
    , @TT

    If anything, Singapore or perhaps more accurately, the PAP should learn to pragmatic and accept things and see if there is a way to make the most of things as you guys would say. I mean in spite of Lee Hsien Loong, top CPC cadres are still sent to NTU right?
     
    Ever wonder why Mr Lee Kuan Yew so closed to China with Mr Deng XP as his only admired stateman, want to solicite US to balance China rising in Asia Pacific?

    This is what i could think of:

    Under Jiang ZM era in initial opening up of China lawless market, Spore suffered much loses in China investment due to its honest law abiding social norm under LKY PAP.

    LKY had great foresight to see the utmost potential of a great prosperous China that he get Spore invested deeply into China from earliest stage with much knowhow transfer and FDI.

    But the Suzhou mayor lawless mafia style (with Jiang approval for sure) of robbing a high profile state-to-state $Bil Suzhou Industrial Park had upset Lee KY so much into going public to denounce China gov and give up project. That probably had make LKY see China differently since, after Deng XP death, China is a dangerous lawless bully.

    I would further speculate that with many accumulated bad experiences later under ultra corrupted China gov from lowest level up to highest Jiang that bankrupted so many Spore businessmen had instilled deeply in LKY to conclude that a strong unrestrained China without moral virtues and law abiding system is indeed great menace to the world. So he advocated for US to counterbalance China, as Japan and India are simply aren't up to standard.

    With Mr Hu Jing Tao tightly under Jiang's controlled(?), there was nothing much improve if not worsen as ex-Premier Zhu Rong Ji had proclaimed. Still Spore relationship with China improved much as Spore continue to provide highest FDI & all helpful aids like free training and skill transfer in whatever China needs.

    Pres Xi JP relentless cracked down of corruption to remove many Jiang stooges seem changing China much. Singapore appeared to engage in many mega industrial parks and big projects successfully. As time passed, i heard Singapore has make a good reputation as preferred reliable partners(besides Germans) in China bcos of honesty?

    With Pres Xi JP strong leadership able to put China on a responsible peaceful rising, probably LKY might regret in his grave now that he had invited a hegemonic destructive US to rebalance in AsiaPac, obstructing China peaceful rise & sabotaging AP peace and prosperity greatly.

    This has instilled much dislike among Chinese towards Spore. PM LHL has further aggravate that with his weak leadership manipulated by US into chaining Spore with US anti-China war machine. LKY muz be turning in his grave to see that.

    Still under early stage, Mr LeeKY is correct to perceive the great danger in a corrupted and lawless superpower China that will out produce and out sell everyone, to solicite US. But Pres Xi has miraculously restructured China, and now on another bigger mission to contain world greatest threat, declining US Empire.

    Until China can protect all its ally from US, all pragmatic leaders will be continuously threaten or blackmailed into anti-China. LHL is galaxy far from his father ability and credential to yield any political influence to resist US control.
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  179. @Lin
    >>get the heck out of Tibet and Eastern Turkestan<<
    Why? Tibetans reap much economical benefits from rest of china and the homo-pedo lama theocracy which encamped something like 1/4 to 1/3 of Tibetan males was dismantled. Tibet economy will collapse overnight without china; just how well off are the Dalai's boys in India,eh?
    Nor will China allow Tibet to be controlled by US or india military bases.
    As with Xinjiang, are you, a self-proclaimed 'china hand' not know that China has a long history in central asia, as long as the Urghurs? The original inhabitants of Xinjiang were not Turkic Urghurs, actually a Persian speaking people, still there, numbered in 10s of 1000s the last time I checked their numbers.
    ......
    One more interesting bit, the semi-legendary Chinese heroine Hua Mulan was actually not a Han. She was the daughter of a non-han military chief who served the Chinese king/emperor in that part of central asia. I personally suspect 'Hua' is a local phonetical translation of 'Farsi'. Likely Mulan was ethnic Persian.
    .........
    I must remember you the limey imperial design on Tibet could only exists in the form of internet babble

    I never understand chinese posters. why do you always defend? learn to attack stupid writings like that.

    if china should give up those 2 areas, usa should give up it’s land in it’s entirety. all the white people in asian countries should gtfo too. qing chinese empire’s conquest of tibet was before the founding of usa :)

    see, a simple attack that throws hypocrisy like that into their faces. rub it into their faces. make it bleed.

    I don’t attack derb much because I consider him to be a sad, scared, old man who is just watching out for the white heritage. but as a chinese, you can :)

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    • Replies: @Lin
    >>I never understand chinese posters..<<
    You misunderstood me. First of all, there's a number of things I hardly bother to react, like
    1)Someone claim Chinese to be stupid, non-innovative, copycat-like...
    2)State how poor china is. China sure is poor; even the skilled construction workers in Chinese cities don't make more than the equivalent of US min.wage.
    ........
    I basically tried to point some obvious BS regarding history,like 1) anti-Chinese propagandists paint how 'spiritual' is Dalai lama and his theocrazy, basically whitewashing the fact he, like his long list of predecessors have been the most oppressive theocrats and the low caste Tibetans were their victims 2)All the infrastructure work in Tibet built at great Chinese expenses were designed to 'exploit' Tibetans. 3)Chinese in central asia(some people even ignore how the word 'silk road' came to being and it's implication.)
    I vividly remember many years ago a certain pro-dalai female exile who claimed Chinese built toys factories in Tibet, exploited child labours there and exported those toys to US to make a few $. Such propaganda basically hinged on ignorance related to Tibet; in this case simply transportation to and from Tibet is generally expensive; if Chinese wanted to export toys,why not build the factories in coastal area?
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  180. @Alden
    Maybe his excellency is right. It’s my opinion that both China and the United States have enough people, territory, resources and different climate that both countries could do very well with isolationism. Both countries can grow their own food and produce just about everything they need.

    Although China needs to import oil and gasoline no? Both countries should take care of themselves. America invaded the world militarily while China invades the world with cheap garbage that falls apart and poisonous dog food.

    American made furnaces, hot water heaters, stoves refrigators and other neccisities lasted 30 years. Your Chinese garbage breaks down in 10 or less.

    Most people think China can’t produce durable major purchase goods like furnaces. I think China makes garbage that falls apart so quickly to keep creating sales of the neccisities like furnaces stoves hot water heaters etc.

    Consumer durables today are really not so durable, but relative to incomes they are an order of magnitude cheaper than the good old days. The ultimate person responsible for this is the consumer. They demand cheaper. The manufacturer provides it. There are product engineers whose whole job is to “optimize” a product by removing material to save costs and shipping. Durability suffers but that’s OK. It may last half as long but it’s a quarter of the price and more importantly the consumer gets to experience that delirious high of buying something shiny and new.

    You want something well made and that will last? Expect to pay through the nose. Not just big name brand levels of expensive who are just as skin flint as any mass market manufacturer but more along the lines of $700 for a fruit juicer expensive. Want furniture that’s not pleather and particleboard? Expect to pay 10x what major retailers charge.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Alden
    I know all that and more.

    All my wood furniture except for solid alder custom made book cases is antiques real antiques mostly walnut, some mahogany and no oak or god forbid pine. Couches and chairs are Baker Henredon etc with waverly and to the trade only fabric.

    Leather couches and chairs? Tacky tacky tacky tacky tacky

    IKEA furniture is just garbage and worse than Chinese furniture

    But non Chinese made household appliances are just not available Toys? Computers and TVs? Lawn mowers vacuum cleaners sewing machines, tools? Nails? 2/3 of the nails sold in America from China bend at the first stroke of the hammer The threading on faucets and pipes doesn’t work. What brands are not made in China?

    Well made toys and tools are still
    Made in Germany but you can’t find them in American stores.
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  181. Jason Liu says:
    @Alden
    Why can’t China be China and let the culture of the West alone? I doubt you realize how strong insane liberal culture in the West is.

    I’d like that, but the west is on a moral crusade to spread its values everywhere. Just read this article from the NYT, written by a frumpy feminist:

    https://nytimes.com/2018/02/20/opinion/china-women-birthrate-rights.html

    Listen to the condescending tone, the use of liberal ‘women’s rights’ rhetoric to undermine China’s efforts at fixing its aging population.

    Liberal democracy is the most hegemonic political ideology in history. Despite what Duke of Qin says, withdrawing from the world and playing turtle forever is not a sustainable solution. We must go on the offensive, and change international norms until liberal culture is either dismantled, permanently diluted, or at least stops encroaching on non-western countries.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Alden
    It might help if the American Chinese and Asians didn’t always vote democrat.

    There is a Chinese Republican Party club in California, but they are for Taiwanese independence from China.

    The rest of the Asian activists and voters are solidly in the liberal democrat party camp along with the blacks Jews Hispanics gays trannies feminazis enviro wackies and the rest of the lunatic liberals.

    There was an anti affirmative action proposition 209 on the ballot in California 22 years ago. It passed. But Chinese and other Asians who voted voted in favor of affirmative action and against Prop 209.

    There was another proposition denying welfare and other benefits to illegal aliens on the ballot. Chinese and other Asians voted against it.

    Chinese and other Asians are part of the liberal coalition. They don’t worship blacks, gays , trannies, black criminals and the environment as liberal Whites do, but they vote for the democrats.

    San Francisco is a liberal lunatic city. Chinese and other Asians are a substantial voting bloc and always have been. Yet despite all their conservative values they keep voting in the liberal lunatic Mayors and board of supervisors

    And the Asians of San Francisco want it to be a sanctuary city because their restaurants and factories and stores employ lots and lots of illegal alien Chinese indentured servants.

    American Asians also want to import their parents and grandparents so they can get SSI for the aged and parasite off the old age medical care, free bus passes, free food, free taxi service and other old age benefits Americans work 45 or 50 years for. But the Asian parasites get those benefits within a month of their arrival.

    Face it Jason, American Asians are united with the liberal lunatics of the Democrat party despite the conservative values they practice in private. For instance, Nancy Pelosi’s district is known as West Chinatown. If the Asians in her district voted against her, she wouldn’t be in Congress.

    , @Alden
    I read the article.

    Hard to figure out what she wanted to say. At first the idea was Chinese women should have more children. Then she attacked the Chinese government propaganda that educated women should have babies before age 29.

    Why read the NYSlimes anyway, especially the op ed pages? All editorial pages in America are just a lot of White hating ignorant pompous puritans pontificating about what other people should do.

    The feminazi hags write editorials advising American women to postpone child bearing until 45 or 50 so they can have a wonderful career working 70 hours a week for 40 hours pay. And then pay for college when they are pushing 70. Idiots.

    Look up the feminazi Hanna Rosen who writes for The Atlantic advising American women to postpone childbearing till 45 or 50. Total ignorance of human reproduction. Total ignorance of child raising

    Just don’t read American magazines and newspapers. Every word is either a lie or the rantings of pompous ignorant puritans preaching about things of which they know nothing. Who is that feminazi witch to tell millions of Chinese women what to do?

    What makes her think Chinese women will follow her advice, especially as her article is so confused.
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  182. @Mitchell Porter
    "subjugating others... is a really bad idea. It is inevitably going to result in foreigners entering China in unprecedented numbers. This has happened before in China’s past"

    When was that?

    Biggest example was during the Tang and probably China’s biggest mistake with multiculturalism. Back then the Chinese were much more xenophilic even compared to to the today, or at least the elites were. The Chinese expansion into Central Asia brought a slew of foreigners into China, primarily Turks and various Iranian peoples. Things were so bad that imperial capital was (well the Western one) was being turned into Londonistan light. Despite doomsayers cautioning against this, the Court was indifferent at best or actively hostile. These are loyal subjects you see and they have our best interests at heart! Long story short one of these foreigners social climbs his way into a governorship over the heart of North China. Things get so ridiculous that the man begins actively dismissing Han Chinese military officers under his command and replacing them with his coethnics and the gullible Chinese actually sign off and approve of these transfers. Stop me if this type of ethnic subversion sounds familiar. Unlike today though, they weren’t content with merely controlling the Media apparatus and made a big play for the Army bureaucracy. Naturally this results in an ethnic coup attempt which is mistakenly labeled as a Civil War.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Alden
    Might be helpful to us ignorant foreigners if you’d do timelines in your comments about Chinese history. Are you referring to when the Mongol Khans ruled China 1200 to 1600 ?????

    Which civil war??? China has had a lot of them, I always enjoy your posts.
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  183. Lin says:
    @Astuteobservor II
    I never understand chinese posters. why do you always defend? learn to attack stupid writings like that.

    if china should give up those 2 areas, usa should give up it's land in it's entirety. all the white people in asian countries should gtfo too. qing chinese empire's conquest of tibet was before the founding of usa :)

    see, a simple attack that throws hypocrisy like that into their faces. rub it into their faces. make it bleed.

    I don't attack derb much because I consider him to be a sad, scared, old man who is just watching out for the white heritage. but as a chinese, you can :)

    >>I never understand chinese posters..<<
    You misunderstood me. First of all, there's a number of things I hardly bother to react, like
    1)Someone claim Chinese to be stupid, non-innovative, copycat-like…
    2)State how poor china is. China sure is poor; even the skilled construction workers in Chinese cities don't make more than the equivalent of US min.wage.
    ……..
    I basically tried to point some obvious BS regarding history,like 1) anti-Chinese propagandists paint how 'spiritual' is Dalai lama and his theocrazy, basically whitewashing the fact he, like his long list of predecessors have been the most oppressive theocrats and the low caste Tibetans were their victims 2)All the infrastructure work in Tibet built at great Chinese expenses were designed to 'exploit' Tibetans. 3)Chinese in central asia(some people even ignore how the word 'silk road' came to being and it's implication.)
    I vividly remember many years ago a certain pro-dalai female exile who claimed Chinese built toys factories in Tibet, exploited child labours there and exported those toys to US to make a few $. Such propaganda basically hinged on ignorance related to Tibet; in this case simply transportation to and from Tibet is generally expensive; if Chinese wanted to export toys,why not build the factories in coastal area?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
    you need to attack obvious stupid points. not just defend. your comment was like justification. that insinuated wrong doing. that is the english language.

    don't just defend, attack the retarded points. humiliation is in order when people spout non sense. especially for ones who have a microphone in a public capacity.
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  184. Normally I just lurk but I have something for the agitated Chinese commentors here:

    The battle line is drawn. Their intention is now known. Your energy should be directed at the preparation for the coming conflict that will define the current century. If you want to say anything it shouldn’t be said to the opposition here and it certainly shouldn’t be in English. Discuss how to prevail or at least survive the coming conflict with your own kind. Raise awareness. Wake the people from slumber. Counter enemy propaganda at home. Being butthurt here achieves nothing. Actually do something to make a difference.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    Dammit, General Sun Tzu, whose side are you on? You had to alert them not to blab about their plans on Unz.com right in front of all us American lurkers! Nice goin', chief - don't look for any more Renmenbi direct deposits into your Construction Bank account.

    (Well, back to the drawing board - I'm sure the Deep State'll thinka sumthin'.)
    , @Daniel Chieh
    Yes, the enduring ages from this point on will surely be defined by fierce keyboard warriors.

    https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png

    Unfortunately, I think some people truly believe this.

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  185. @HogHappenin
    Ha! Democracy!!! that hallowed piece of crap that provides Uncle Sam (or is it Uncle Schlomo??) to bomb the crap out of many countries!

    Nice to see it crumbling in the belly of the beast I left quite a white ago!

    Reading comprehension, dude… it’s not just for big-character posters.

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  186. Joe Hide says:

    China and the Chinese have had dense populations on limited land and and resources for so long that a dog eat dog economic momentum developed. As per capital income increases the average Chinese should tend to eat beef, pork, and chicken instead of dog (That was a 1/2 joke …. ha!). My European ancestors were even more dog eat dog driven until their descendents achieved economic security. I expect we of the West should recognize this fact and up our business and political negotiation skills (We need to grow a pair), …. until the Chinese have become as economically complacent as we have become. Then we won’t have to be as whiny, easily emotionally triggered, and privilege expectant as many expats seem to be. Advice: Raise tough kids. Don’t give them money, make them work for it. Start them young, like at 5 years old making their own beds and feeding the cat. Make them do homework first thing when home from school. If affordable, send them to a good private school that doesn’t prioritize political correctness. Make them go to church, the synagogue, whatever weekly so they become habituated to boring but necessary mindless activities in life ..
    while keeping it clear that the institutions religious leaders may have some crazy ideas. Promote playing musical instruments, esp. of classical music. Have wall paper with scientific symbols and formulas so that Math & Science is childhood on familiar and easier for them. Ask questions like “What do you think?” … and don’t correct their answer, unless it is totally crazy.
    Have a good day!

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  187. wayfarer says:
    @AaronB
    I just read that book by Midler, and it is fascinating. It's exactly how Jews do business in America, adjusted for different circumstances.

    Every white person should read that book if he's interested in the future survival of the West. Not in order to "bash" China - but to learn from it!

    And why not? The West must humble itself and learn, because their old tactics just aren't adaptive anymore. Asians learned from the West when it was clear that their culture was maladaptive - are we gonna be too stubborn to do the same? Are we gonna have to go through some massive trauma like Asians did?

    Right now Asians and Jews have more adaptive tactics than us - why shouldn't we be humble enough to accept that?

    For the past 500 years our tactics were supreme, but not anymore.

    The essence of Chinese tactics - and Jewish - after all the verbiage can be reduced to one single word: deception, deception, deception.

    Deception is death to innovation. For that you require brutal honesty of the kind the West specialized in for the past few centuries. But let's be brutally frank - the era of innovation is over. Finished. At best, we are refining existing technologies.

    In this new era the old brutal honesty of the West is maladaptive.

    If the West is to survive, it must reinvent itself and develop a tradition of deception like Sun Tzu. This shouldn't be impossible because the West has reinvented itself multiple times, like Japan.

    Let's put aside all sentimentalism and be brutally frank here - the west did not have a culture of brutal honesty because it was more "moral". They had it because it gave them tremendous power in the form of technology.

    But for whatever reason, technological innovation has dried up, and sticking to a culture of brutal honesty is maladaptive in this new environment.

    If the West wants to survive, it must get rid of its sentimental attachment to morality and honesty and develop cunning - deception.

    There is no other way - the honesty needed to develop new technology is just no longer yielding any fruits and has become a massive chain around our necks.

    A new culture of deception and cunning can coexist with virtue and compassion to some degree, but the extreme development of honesty is an over-specialization that cannot be sustained.

    Another thing westerners should copy from the Chinese and Jews - don't take the world so seriously.

    Westerners seem terribly in earnest, whereas for Jews and Asians the world and all its imposing social structures are something of a joke.

    Perhaps Buddhism with its theory of the world as an illusion helps the Chinese not be so terribly serious - and perhaps Jews as outsiders and nomads have learned to not see seemingly solid social structures as evanescent.

    But the Western grasp for permanence and stability in an unstable world is seriously maladaptive.

    Life is much more fun when you don't take it seriously - more of an adventure. It's this attitude that is the source of Chinese charm.

    We need detachment, not to be so serious, to see life as more of a joke and an adventure.

    Detachment also gives you flexibility and adaptability to novel situations - "beliefs" give you rigidity and death.

    Deception is death to innovation. For that you require brutal honesty of the kind the West specialized in for the past few centuries. But let’s be brutally frank – the era of innovation is over. Finished. At best, we are refining existing technologies.

    Invention or innovation.

    An art, a science, a spiritual handout.

    Creation, never sleeps.

    Creator shares its work, unconditionally.

    Cosmic designs and universal laws.

    A wild juicy orange, is yours for the taking.

    Infinitely giving, only hoping that we might pay it forward.

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  188. Snowman says:
    @SimplePseudonymicHandle
    I don't know if it was that bad - which isn't to defend it - Derbyshire in the post himself takes steps to qualify its shortcomings at the outset.

    Here's how I read it: China isn't perfect - indeed, China has real problems and maybe more salient - real shortcomings that will be difficult to overcome and of which we should practice some skepticism that they even will be overcome.

    That's purely my POV, I could have been reading too much into it, however, the POV comes from here: I do in fact have a sense of China as a real place, and Chinese as real people, and like all real places and real people there are certain intractable problems in China that are profoundly self-limiting to Chinese collective advancement.

    Before getting to why that's important bear this in mind: the exact same thing can be said of the US. On another thread nearby a commenter notes the contrast between Mormon culture and southern culture - these reflect self-limiting features in American culture and politics that seem intractable and resistant to efforts to overcome. Add to that: our identity politics, short-term symbolism over long-term substance. America: she got problems.

    But so often we get the "rising China" scare article and all manner of mischief is promoted on the basis that we are supposed to fear an inexorably rising China. Articles like this can be a welcome antidote to that. Americans commit all manner of ideological, political, cultural and geo-political mistakes with their superhumanizing of Chinese (i.e.: Kissinger, "the Chinese are smarter than us" ... cue a Unz Review Peanut Gallery HBD fan to sneer with some laconic wit via some IQ remark (ehem, cough, cough - PISA in China is only in Shanghai, think ... think about that, study up on the background, then think ) )

    Everyone does China better to neither denigrate Chinese, nor superhumanize them.

    The fact is, the average IQ of Chinese people is 105, while the average IQ of Americans is 98. Combined with the fact that the size of China’s population is 4 times that of America, that means the size of the smart fraction (population with IQ above 120) of China is more than 5 or 6 times greater than America’s. So compared to America, China is indeed a country of “superhuman” potential. No “superhumanizing” has taken place.

    And people are oblivious (or pretend to be oblivious) of the fact that prior to the 17th century, China had been the world’s most advanced civilization for two or three millenias straight. The living stardard of imperial China had been generally higher than that of Europe of the same period. This is a well documented fact.

    In fact, in my opinion the MSM of America is still underestimating modern China’s potential, not overestimating.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    And people are oblivious (or pretend to be oblivious) of the fact that prior to the 17th century, China had been the world’s most advanced civilization for two or three millenias straight. The living stardard of imperial China had been generally higher than that of Europe of the same period. This is a well documented fact.


     

    Eh. I don't know about that.

    Roman and Han dynasty was roughly comparable for their time period, and the only time that China could conclusively be considered as ahead was during the Tang and that was because Europe had just self-destructed into the Dark Age. Byzantium alone still saved some of the technology of Rome then, but it was too busy surviving to advance into anything.

    And following the Renaissance, Europe pretty much overtook everything.

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  189. Alden says:
    @Jason Liu
    I'd like that, but the west is on a moral crusade to spread its values everywhere. Just read this article from the NYT, written by a frumpy feminist:

    https://nytimes.com/2018/02/20/opinion/china-women-birthrate-rights.html

    Listen to the condescending tone, the use of liberal 'women's rights' rhetoric to undermine China's efforts at fixing its aging population.

    Liberal democracy is the most hegemonic political ideology in history. Despite what Duke of Qin says, withdrawing from the world and playing turtle forever is not a sustainable solution. We must go on the offensive, and change international norms until liberal culture is either dismantled, permanently diluted, or at least stops encroaching on non-western countries.

    It might help if the American Chinese and Asians didn’t always vote democrat.

    There is a Chinese Republican Party club in California, but they are for Taiwanese independence from China.

    The rest of the Asian activists and voters are solidly in the liberal democrat party camp along with the blacks Jews Hispanics gays trannies feminazis enviro wackies and the rest of the lunatic liberals.

    There was an anti affirmative action proposition 209 on the ballot in California 22 years ago. It passed. But Chinese and other Asians who voted voted in favor of affirmative action and against Prop 209.

    There was another proposition denying welfare and other benefits to illegal aliens on the ballot. Chinese and other Asians voted against it.

    Chinese and other Asians are part of the liberal coalition. They don’t worship blacks, gays , trannies, black criminals and the environment as liberal Whites do, but they vote for the democrats.

    San Francisco is a liberal lunatic city. Chinese and other Asians are a substantial voting bloc and always have been. Yet despite all their conservative values they keep voting in the liberal lunatic Mayors and board of supervisors

    And the Asians of San Francisco want it to be a sanctuary city because their restaurants and factories and stores employ lots and lots of illegal alien Chinese indentured servants.

    American Asians also want to import their parents and grandparents so they can get SSI for the aged and parasite off the old age medical care, free bus passes, free food, free taxi service and other old age benefits Americans work 45 or 50 years for. But the Asian parasites get those benefits within a month of their arrival.

    Face it Jason, American Asians are united with the liberal lunatics of the Democrat party despite the conservative values they practice in private. For instance, Nancy Pelosi’s district is known as West Chinatown. If the Asians in her district voted against her, she wouldn’t be in Congress.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    Until the 90s, Asians voted solidly republican.

    In 1992, when national exit polls started counting Asian Americans separately, they showed a group that was mostly Republican. That year, Asian Americans supported George H.W. Bush over Bill Clinton by a margin of 55 percent to 31 percent and were twice as likely to describe themselves as conservative than as liberal.
     

    The shift is due to the general liberal success with college students in the American system, and to some extent, the general association with liberals with both IQ and new technology companies.

    The practice of creating walled suburbs while preaching diversity is exceptionally white.One could even consider it evidence of successful assimilation. To liberal white values, at any rate.

    , @Jason Liu
    I'm talking about China and the global culture wars, not Chinese Americans.

    But to address your point: Of course they do. Minorities lean left everywhere. You're describing the symptom, I'm describing the root cause, which is liberal democracy. Meaning that if you wanted a white country without foreigners taking advantage it, you'd have to end the idea of liberal democracy itself. China and Russia and quite a few others can help you with that.

    There's also a silver lining in America's current situation. As you say, minorities are usually more conservative and motivated by self-interest, not actual belief in egalitarian bullshit. This means a minority takeover of key positions in the Democratic party would make America a more tribal, but less ideologically liberal place. That's a win for the international right. In some sense, it might even be a win for white Americans.

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  190. Moi says:
    @jim jones
    Have a heart attack in China and people will just walk around you:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaGSBXMobPM

    Here, in the US, we just walk over them, no?

    Read More
    • Replies: @jim jones
    I fainted in the centre of London and the next thing woke up in an NHS ambulance - some passers by had phoned for help. My wallet was still in my pocket.
    , @Bill
    No.
    , @TT
    They even took off his valuables after walking pass that fainted guy in US.

    Jim is trying to single out China unfairly, and just lucky he fainted in London save by some kind souls. Try some London outskirts poor area by lying down pretend to faint, see if his trouser still intact.

    In India or some countries, your kidneys are gone. Ass is sore, oops, who did it.

    These are common human problems prevalence in poverty hit area, even in developed countries to lesser extend, Dinh and others had discussed about that in Vietnam too.
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  191. Alden says:
    @Duke of Qin
    Consumer durables today are really not so durable, but relative to incomes they are an order of magnitude cheaper than the good old days. The ultimate person responsible for this is the consumer. They demand cheaper. The manufacturer provides it. There are product engineers whose whole job is to "optimize" a product by removing material to save costs and shipping. Durability suffers but that's OK. It may last half as long but it's a quarter of the price and more importantly the consumer gets to experience that delirious high of buying something shiny and new.

    You want something well made and that will last? Expect to pay through the nose. Not just big name brand levels of expensive who are just as skin flint as any mass market manufacturer but more along the lines of $700 for a fruit juicer expensive. Want furniture that's not pleather and particleboard? Expect to pay 10x what major retailers charge.

    I know all that and more.

    All my wood furniture except for solid alder custom made book cases is antiques real antiques mostly walnut, some mahogany and no oak or god forbid pine. Couches and chairs are Baker Henredon etc with waverly and to the trade only fabric.

    Leather couches and chairs? Tacky tacky tacky tacky tacky

    IKEA furniture is just garbage and worse than Chinese furniture

    But non Chinese made household appliances are just not available Toys? Computers and TVs? Lawn mowers vacuum cleaners sewing machines, tools? Nails? 2/3 of the nails sold in America from China bend at the first stroke of the hammer The threading on faucets and pipes doesn’t work. What brands are not made in China?

    Well made toys and tools are still
    Made in Germany but you can’t find them in American stores.

    Read More
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  192. @Reg Cæsar

    The most wince-inducing aspect of this national trait is the frequent announcements out of Peking...
     
    No more wince-inducing than Derb's defense of the awful neonym Czechia.

    "Peking" fits our tongue much better than "Beijing", two of which consonants we can't pronounce, so Derb is right to use it. So what's the deal with "Czechia", which doesn't fit, and the Czechs won't even use themselves?

    Czechia is a phonetic abomination. Worst idea ever. If you need a nickname for the land that doesn’t include the word “republic”, it should be Bohemia.

    To the extent I’ve seen people argue against Bohemia they usually say because the Czech Republic includes Moravia as well. But the medieval kingdom of Bohemia included Moravia, and also Silesia.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    Bohemia-Moravia still sounds at least as good as Bosnia-Herzegovina.

    And don't forget Trinidad and Tobago. And St Pierre and Miquelon. And Rhode Island and Providence Plantations.

    https://www.sporcle.com/games/the_geekery/countries-with-and
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  193. @Alden
    Do you live in China? Do you know anyone in the people’s congress, the state council, high ranking military or members of the central committee of the communist party?

    Would a newspaper or magazine print your plans for China? You can start a website. Why would China want to go to war with any country? You are now and throughout history supreme in Asia. India and the west are too far away to harm China. I suppose China could invade Russia but why?????

    China has a nice solid chunk of territory. You have no need to expand. You make practically everything and the world is thrilled to buy it. China is the workshop of the world.

    Why would China want to start a war and with whom?

    No, he could be prosecuted for hate speech in China or more specifically, “Han chauvinism.” Such actions promote separatism, which is the Party has pretty firm opinions about.

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  194. @Snowman
    The fact is, the average IQ of Chinese people is 105, while the average IQ of Americans is 98. Combined with the fact that the size of China's population is 4 times that of America, that means the size of the smart fraction (population with IQ above 120) of China is more than 5 or 6 times greater than America's. So compared to America, China is indeed a country of "superhuman" potential. No "superhumanizing" has taken place.

    And people are oblivious (or pretend to be oblivious) of the fact that prior to the 17th century, China had been the world's most advanced civilization for two or three millenias straight. The living stardard of imperial China had been generally higher than that of Europe of the same period. This is a well documented fact.

    In fact, in my opinion the MSM of America is still underestimating modern China's potential, not overestimating.

    And people are oblivious (or pretend to be oblivious) of the fact that prior to the 17th century, China had been the world’s most advanced civilization for two or three millenias straight. The living stardard of imperial China had been generally higher than that of Europe of the same period. This is a well documented fact.

    Eh. I don’t know about that.

    Roman and Han dynasty was roughly comparable for their time period, and the only time that China could conclusively be considered as ahead was during the Tang and that was because Europe had just self-destructed into the Dark Age. Byzantium alone still saved some of the technology of Rome then, but it was too busy surviving to advance into anything.

    And following the Renaissance, Europe pretty much overtook everything.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    Sorry, didn't mention the Song, which yes, all together does add to quite a lot of centuries. But part of it could be noted that Europe experienced a pretty hard fall after the Roman empire - even longevity dropped by a decade IIRC. But there does seems to be something that Europe maintained that Faustian spirit while the same spark for expansive inqusition/adventure did not really survive the An Lushan rebellion in China.

    The "siege mentality" has been there for a long time. Justified in some ways? Probably, so much of history is learning how to deal with being attacked from north, east and south; building up community walls, then city walls, then country walls... *

    But I don't think its overall positive.

    * Some of the Opium War English wrote to their surprise, that marketplaces in China had walls. That's some dedication to walling up.

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  195. jim jones says:
    @Moi
    Here, in the US, we just walk over them, no?

    I fainted in the centre of London and the next thing woke up in an NHS ambulance – some passers by had phoned for help. My wallet was still in my pocket.

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  196. nsa says:

    Every Chinese household has been promised a white houseboy by the year 2050. The bellwether Mrs. Derb already has one.

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    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    LOL
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  197. Alden says:
    @Jason Liu
    I'd like that, but the west is on a moral crusade to spread its values everywhere. Just read this article from the NYT, written by a frumpy feminist:

    https://nytimes.com/2018/02/20/opinion/china-women-birthrate-rights.html

    Listen to the condescending tone, the use of liberal 'women's rights' rhetoric to undermine China's efforts at fixing its aging population.

    Liberal democracy is the most hegemonic political ideology in history. Despite what Duke of Qin says, withdrawing from the world and playing turtle forever is not a sustainable solution. We must go on the offensive, and change international norms until liberal culture is either dismantled, permanently diluted, or at least stops encroaching on non-western countries.

    I read the article.

    Hard to figure out what she wanted to say. At first the idea was Chinese women should have more children. Then she attacked the Chinese government propaganda that educated women should have babies before age 29.

    Why read the NYSlimes anyway, especially the op ed pages? All editorial pages in America are just a lot of White hating ignorant pompous puritans pontificating about what other people should do.

    The feminazi hags write editorials advising American women to postpone child bearing until 45 or 50 so they can have a wonderful career working 70 hours a week for 40 hours pay. And then pay for college when they are pushing 70. Idiots.

    Look up the feminazi Hanna Rosen who writes for The Atlantic advising American women to postpone childbearing till 45 or 50. Total ignorance of human reproduction. Total ignorance of child raising

    Just don’t read American magazines and newspapers. Every word is either a lie or the rantings of pompous ignorant puritans preaching about things of which they know nothing. Who is that feminazi witch to tell millions of Chinese women what to do?

    What makes her think Chinese women will follow her advice, especially as her article is so confused.

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  198. @Alden
    It might help if the American Chinese and Asians didn’t always vote democrat.

    There is a Chinese Republican Party club in California, but they are for Taiwanese independence from China.

    The rest of the Asian activists and voters are solidly in the liberal democrat party camp along with the blacks Jews Hispanics gays trannies feminazis enviro wackies and the rest of the lunatic liberals.

    There was an anti affirmative action proposition 209 on the ballot in California 22 years ago. It passed. But Chinese and other Asians who voted voted in favor of affirmative action and against Prop 209.

    There was another proposition denying welfare and other benefits to illegal aliens on the ballot. Chinese and other Asians voted against it.

    Chinese and other Asians are part of the liberal coalition. They don’t worship blacks, gays , trannies, black criminals and the environment as liberal Whites do, but they vote for the democrats.

    San Francisco is a liberal lunatic city. Chinese and other Asians are a substantial voting bloc and always have been. Yet despite all their conservative values they keep voting in the liberal lunatic Mayors and board of supervisors

    And the Asians of San Francisco want it to be a sanctuary city because their restaurants and factories and stores employ lots and lots of illegal alien Chinese indentured servants.

    American Asians also want to import their parents and grandparents so they can get SSI for the aged and parasite off the old age medical care, free bus passes, free food, free taxi service and other old age benefits Americans work 45 or 50 years for. But the Asian parasites get those benefits within a month of their arrival.

    Face it Jason, American Asians are united with the liberal lunatics of the Democrat party despite the conservative values they practice in private. For instance, Nancy Pelosi’s district is known as West Chinatown. If the Asians in her district voted against her, she wouldn’t be in Congress.

    Until the 90s, Asians voted solidly republican.

    In 1992, when national exit polls started counting Asian Americans separately, they showed a group that was mostly Republican. That year, Asian Americans supported George H.W. Bush over Bill Clinton by a margin of 55 percent to 31 percent and were twice as likely to describe themselves as conservative than as liberal.

    The shift is due to the general liberal success with college students in the American system, and to some extent, the general association with liberals with both IQ and new technology companies.

    The practice of creating walled suburbs while preaching diversity is exceptionally white.One could even consider it evidence of successful assimilation. To liberal white values, at any rate.

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    • Replies: @Alden
    That’s true. Even the younger generation of Vietnamese are Democrats now. But the San Francisco Chinese vote for Nancy Pelosi and the rest of the lunatics. That elected sheriff who proudly let the killer of Kate Steinle out of city jail despite an ICE hold is Asian . Mayor Ed Lee and the Chinese elected supervisors are also lunatic liberals

    My point is that San Francisco is the only major city that has enough Chinese American citizens eligible to vote that could really reverse the lunacy of the city if they didn’t keep electing the likes of Nancy Pelosi, gay activists and the Asian sheriff who proudly let the killer of Kate Steinle out of city jail.
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  199. Alden says:
    @Duke of Qin
    Biggest example was during the Tang and probably China's biggest mistake with multiculturalism. Back then the Chinese were much more xenophilic even compared to to the today, or at least the elites were. The Chinese expansion into Central Asia brought a slew of foreigners into China, primarily Turks and various Iranian peoples. Things were so bad that imperial capital was (well the Western one) was being turned into Londonistan light. Despite doomsayers cautioning against this, the Court was indifferent at best or actively hostile. These are loyal subjects you see and they have our best interests at heart! Long story short one of these foreigners social climbs his way into a governorship over the heart of North China. Things get so ridiculous that the man begins actively dismissing Han Chinese military officers under his command and replacing them with his coethnics and the gullible Chinese actually sign off and approve of these transfers. Stop me if this type of ethnic subversion sounds familiar. Unlike today though, they weren't content with merely controlling the Media apparatus and made a big play for the Army bureaucracy. Naturally this results in an ethnic coup attempt which is mistakenly labeled as a Civil War.

    Might be helpful to us ignorant foreigners if you’d do timelines in your comments about Chinese history. Are you referring to when the Mongol Khans ruled China 1200 to 1600 ?????

    Which civil war??? China has had a lot of them, I always enjoy your posts.

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    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    He's talking about the An Lushan rebellion, far before Mongolia - this was when China was conquering the world. He intentionally misses that in many ways, it was also the most glorious age of Chinese history and arguably the closest that Eastern civilization could have gained a worldwide footing as Western civilization has.

    The Chinese do not really fight offensive wars that well - like the Romans, the Chinese are really don't have a horse-riding tradition. The addition of Turkic values and horsemen made for incredibly powerful armies, and a generally more "masculine" and "heroic"/"barbaric" ethos than what China is typically known for.

    But it led to this:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Lushan_Rebellion

    But yes, note the cosmopolitan Tang dynasty and the vast numbers of portrayals of non-Chinese people in China, as well as the diversity ideology which was present in China at the time. And the backstab of the Turkic people had pretty terrible consequences on the Chinese psyche from that point on.

    , @woo
    He was talking about this:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Lushan_Rebellion
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  200. denk says:

    Derbyshire,

    ‘Chinese are cry babies, they feel hurt whenever we feted the cuddly HMDL ‘

    wHY dont fukus try inviting some Nagas./Kashmiris to WH and tell their stories to the world, if the Indians dare to protest, ask them to ….
    mind their own fucking business’ !

    I wouldnt be surprised the murkkan embassy get burned down by an angry mob within a day.

    Yet Thats exactly what fukus told China, about HMDL’s WH love fest.
    Mind your own fucking business’

    Those Chinese are such ‘cry babies’ !

    hehehhehe

    And you aint seen nuthin yet////

    ‘Chinese should get the fuck outta Tibet…’ !!

    jesus christ almighty !

    Coming from the most rapacious land grabbers in human history, this must be the ultimate in anglo hubris !

    But India can keep its part of Tibet of course, AFSPA and all, it’s gifted by the anglos themselves, so its AOK !

    hehehehehh

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  201. @Daniel Chieh

    And people are oblivious (or pretend to be oblivious) of the fact that prior to the 17th century, China had been the world’s most advanced civilization for two or three millenias straight. The living stardard of imperial China had been generally higher than that of Europe of the same period. This is a well documented fact.


     

    Eh. I don't know about that.

    Roman and Han dynasty was roughly comparable for their time period, and the only time that China could conclusively be considered as ahead was during the Tang and that was because Europe had just self-destructed into the Dark Age. Byzantium alone still saved some of the technology of Rome then, but it was too busy surviving to advance into anything.

    And following the Renaissance, Europe pretty much overtook everything.

    Sorry, didn’t mention the Song, which yes, all together does add to quite a lot of centuries. But part of it could be noted that Europe experienced a pretty hard fall after the Roman empire – even longevity dropped by a decade IIRC. But there does seems to be something that Europe maintained that Faustian spirit while the same spark for expansive inqusition/adventure did not really survive the An Lushan rebellion in China.

    The “siege mentality” has been there for a long time. Justified in some ways? Probably, so much of history is learning how to deal with being attacked from north, east and south; building up community walls, then city walls, then country walls… *

    But I don’t think its overall positive.

    * Some of the Opium War English wrote to their surprise, that marketplaces in China had walls. That’s some dedication to walling up.

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    • Replies: @Snowman
    I generally agree with you. However, you seem to consider the periods in which Europe "self-destructed into dark age" and "experienced hardfall" to be exceptions. I on the other hand, include them in the 2 or 3 millenias in which China was ahead, just like I don't consider the periods in which China sank into chaos to be exceptions either.

    I agree with you that during the Tang and Song, China was substantially ahead of Europe. However, I would argue that even during the Yuan and Ming dynasties, China was still significantly ahead of Europe. It was Yuan Dynasty China that Marco Polo was amazed by. During the early Qing Dynasty, it was well documented that China's GDP still accounted for at least 30% of global GDP at that time. I haven't found conclusive evidence for the comparison between Han Dynasty and Roman Empire, probably because it's too many years ago, but if I find something later I will share it with you.

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