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Is Trump’s Wall Really Immoral? What Would We Take Instead?
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So there’s going to be at least a brief government shutdown over the Democrats’ refusal to fund President Trump’s Wall. Good. I cheered on the Wall when Trump put it at the front of his campaign in 2016. And of course we should have a secure barrier to separate us from the semi-barbarous countries to our south, most of which are not so much nation-states as criminal enterprises.

Still, I’m starting to worry that Trump’s need for a Wall—and he really does need it, if he’s not to be thrown out of office in 2020 to jeers of derision and hoots of contempt—I’m worrying that this Wall obsession is crowding out real patriotic immigration reform.

Last week I expressed my fear that the enemy—I mean, the open-borders nation-killers in Congress, the courts, and the media —might calculate that it would be worth giving Trump a wall, and maybe even four more years in the White House, if, in return, they got a total Amnesty for twenty or thirty million illegal aliens, perhaps with expedited citizenship, and big expansions of guest-worker programs, chain migration, refugee settlement, and so on.

I want to see a wall, but not at that price. In fact, looking through the other end of the telescope, I’m asking myself what price I personally would accept for dropping all talk of a wall.

That’s just me opinionating, of course. President Trump doesn’t have the option of giving up on the Wall. He’s too committed to it.

Those of us pushing for patriotic immigration reform do need to keep these other issues in play, though, and not let discussion of them get drowned out by Wall talk.

A Wall would be great. But it wouldn’t restore our national sovereignty or demographic stability by itself.

Nancy Pelosi recently said on national TV that a border wall would be, her actual word, “immoral.”

This is typical. To quote me in Chapter 10 of We Are Doomed:

Immigration is a difficult topic to discuss … The reason it is so difficult is that it has, more I think than any other aspect of U.S. policy, been moralized, in fact hyper-moralized.

They want morality? I’ll give them morality. There is a moral aspect to immigration policy that Pelosi and the other moralizers seem not to want to discuss. That is our strip-mining of poor countries for their most talented people.

There are more Ethiopian doctors in Chicago than in Ethiopia.” That’s from an Ethiopian-emigré website, and the date, I should say, is 2010.

I’m going to post a slight skepticism on that one. The original source is Lefty British politician Glenys Kinnock, speaking in the European Parliament in 2006.[ WORLD HEALTH DAY: Africa Losing Skills to Europe, by Stefania Bianchi, IPS, April 7, 2006] As a Lefty, Ms Kinnock was, I suppose, trying to make a point about the wickedness of the First World, i.e. of white people. How does she square her point, I wonder, with Lefty enthusiasm for uncontrolled immigration?

The fact as stated is not implausible, though. The brain drain from poor countries to rich ones has been a talking-point among development economists for decades, and out of a class of 58 graduates in an Ethiopian medical school 15 years ago, 48 left the country, most to the US. [The doctor surge in Ethiopia, by William Foreman, Healthcare In America, August 18, 2016]

It ties in with Smart Fraction Theory, which argues that for national flourishing you need a certain minimum proportion of high-IQ citizens.

If Smart Fraction Theory is correct then regions like sub-Saharan Africa, with low mean IQ, while they undoubtedly have some smart people, may not have enough for stability and prosperity. And then rich-world immigration policies vacuum up most of the smart people they do have …

How is this moral?

Headline, this one more current: Romania’s brain drain: Half of Romania’s doctors left the country between 2009 and 2015. [Romania-insider.com, March 6, 2017] That’s dated 2017, from an English-language Romanian website, which actually gives the numbers.

Romania’s not even Third World, just bottom-tier First World—annual per capita GDP $25,000—better than Mexico.

Still the lure of North American or West European salaries and standard of living is enough to entice away half the country’s trained doctors.

So how come the immigration moralizers never talk about this? I’ve watched a lot of immigration chat on TV this past few weeks; I don’t recall the topic coming up at all.

To the contrary, what does come up a lot is Republican politicians telling us we should be more choosy about who we admit—only the brightest, best-educated, most accomplished!

Don’t those people’s home countries need their bright, educated, accomplished citizens way more than we do? Could someone please ask moralist-in-chief Nancy Pelosi about this?

To end on a couple of cheerful notes:

Back in August I reported on illegal immigration from Africa into Spain, and wondered why Spain was the odd man out in Europe in hardly having any populist-nationalist agitation.

Well, a lot has changed since August. December 2nd there were elections for the regional parliament in Andalusia, just across the Straits of Gibraltar from North Africa. Andalusia is the most populous and the second-biggest by area of Spain’s regions. It’s been ruled by the Socialist Party for 36 years.

In the December 2nd elections a national-conservative, immigration-restrictionist party called Vox unexpectedly won twelve seats. Pollsters had predicted five.

There are 109 seats in the parliament altogether, but winning twelve is still darn good for a new party. Vox is so new it hadn’t made it into the tabulated “List of active nationalist parties in Europe” on the Wikipedia page of that title when I looked this afternoon, though Wikipedia had squinched a brief text note about them.

Good luck to Vox, and to the people of Spain in the fight for national sovereignty, demographic integrity, and independence!

Cheerful Note Two: Related good news from Europe—and with a tenuous historical connection to Spain—is the resignation of the left-liberal Prime Minister Charles Michel of Belgium on December 18.

What’s the tenuous historical connection? Well, Belgium was once known as the Spanish Netherlands. Wake up there in the back row!

ORDER IT NOW

Prime Minister Michel’s government had actually fallen apart two weeks ago. It was one of those coalition governments, and the biggest member of the coalition had withdrawn support when Mr Michel declared he would sign the U.N.’s Global Compact for Safe, Orderly and Regular Migration, which commits First World signatories to take in more Third World immigrants, both legal and illegal—the Compact doesn’t differentiate.

That brought thousands of protestors out into the streets of Belgium’s capital, Brussels—which is also the de facto capital of the European Union.

Things are really looking up over there.

John Derbyshire [email him] writes an incredible amount on all sorts of subjects for all kinds of outlets. (This no longer includes National Review, whose editors had some kind of tantrum and fired him.) He is the author of We Are Doomed: Reclaiming Conservative Pessimism and several other books. He has had two books published by VDARE.com com: FROM THE DISSIDENT RIGHT (also available in Kindle) and FROM THE DISSIDENT RIGHT II: ESSAYS 2013.

(Republished from VDare by permission of author or representative)
 
• Category: Ideology • Tags: Donald Trump, Immigration 
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  1. Hail says: • Website

    how come the immigration moralizers never talk about [immigration as brain drain on the Third World]?

    To pose the question is almost to suggest the answer.

    In simple terms: The ringleaders of this conspiracy are against White-Christians. Their entire political program is: Dispossess White-Christians everywhere, especially the world’s foremost White-Christian state, the USA. (Do it in a slowly and orderly process to keep the cashflow going; not in the Julius “I’m not calling for the killing of Whites, yet” Malema style, but also do not criticize the Malemas.) This is the all-consuming mission.

    It follows that they don’t care what happens to Third World countries; there is a war on, and all hands need to be on deck. Ethiopia can take one for the team.

    • Replies: @KenH
  2. Realist says:

    It appears to me that Trump doesn’t really want a wall. He used it as a trick to get elected. Why didn’t he push for the wall when he had a chance???

    • Replies: @Rex Little
    , @Truth
    , @follyofwar
  3. Regarding John Derbyshire’s question as to why nationalist parties weren’t stronger early on in Spain –

    The reason perhaps, is related to why anti-migrant nationalist sentiment escalates more quickly and sharply on much of the Continent than in Britain overall, despite Britain’s huuge amount of migrants, migrant crime etc

    It seems related to countries who experienced invading armies on their streets during World War 2, and this includes Italy, being ‘invaded’ by the allies to drive out the axis

    Continentals in WW2 invaded / occupied countries feel more vulnerable, with the sense that ‘Our fathers & grandfathers needed to expel invaders’ … People wonder if they are now experiencing what Pentagon advisor Kelly Greenhill described in the book ‘Weapons of Mass Migration’, on the many manipulated migrations to de-stabilise societies

    • Replies: @Johnny Rottenborough
  4. Tulip says:

    Mandatory E-Verify.

  5. Tulip says:

    The wall is pure bullshit politics. Building a wall won’t reduce the millions of illegals here, it won’t change our system of legal mass immigration, and, while it may make it harder to get it in, people will find a way to exploit the system. Its pure symbolism, and what is sad is that despite Trump being President, in 2 years we can’t even get a symbolic victory that does nothing to change the status quo. Truly pathetic. Immigration restrictionism is turning into the Pro-Life movement, where we vote for Pro-Life conservatives for 50 years with nothing in exchange except bumper stickers.

    • Agree: Ron Unz, Sowhat
    • Replies: @swamped
    , @onebornfree
    , @nsa
    , @Wally
  6. KenH says:

    I’d easily go along with John’s three bullet points in exchange for no wall but there would still need to be better border controls and security. Of course, the first bullet point would serve as a major disincentive for illegal aliens to come here

    Things are really looking up over there.

    No doubt but not so much here in the states. Opposition to race displacement and assaults on white history and icons is still pretty milquetoast and treated as temporary fads that will die out. It isn’t and it won’t and appears to be gaining steam.

    Once again conservatism, inc. is getting savaged in this battle and in the near future erasing white history and acknowledgement of so called “white privilege” will be adopted by conservatives while the Jewish led left will have moved on to calling for the confiscation of white property and wealth as well as their internment and mass murder a la S. Africa today.

    • Replies: @Johann Ricke
  7. Renoman says:

    Well it’s working in Israel. It’s not that hard to enforce a border you just put a 50 cal machine gun every hundred yards over a hundred foot no man’s land, shoot the intruders and don’t bury the bodies. They’ll get the message.
    If you don’t do this or build a wall your Children will be fighting a War down there. Don’t be gutless, fix it now.

    • Agree: RadicalCenter
    • Replies: @anon
    , @dvorak
    , @swamped
  8. KenH says:
    @Hail

    Their entire political program is: Dispossess White-Christians everywhere, especially the world’s foremost White-Christian state,

    This suggests that there would be no such program if whites weren’t nominally Christian. The white Western world is less Christian in character today than at any time since it displaced paganism yet that hasn’t stopped (((them))) from trying to deliver the coup de grace ASAP with the help of their third world auxiliaries.

    Whites could mass convert to Buddhism, Scientology or Wiccanism and it wouldn’t alter (((their))) goal of wiping us off the planet.

    (((They))) hate the race more than they do the Christian religion.

  9. Hail says: • Website
    @KenH

    My use of White-Christian there meant ‘White, Christian ancestry’ — i.e., European. Non-Christian-ancestry Caucasoid groups (esp. Jews) are not targeted at all.

    (((They))) hate the race more than they do the Christian religion.

    Perhaps so, but I do think they chalk up a point, on their scoreboard, for a White-Christian whom their influence induces to convert to a ‘non-European’ religion (today quintessentially Islam), or induces to become angrily, militantly anti-Christian. Such cases become allies (presumably excl. converts to an ethnonationalistic variant of neopaganism).

  10. “…our strip-mining of poor countries for their most talented people.” This “talent” means your Chinese wife and family. You and they need to go back to China to help China develop into a peaceful, democratic country. We do not need you in the West.

    We need to deport all Chinese in the West. They are stealing our technology. They won’t get far though. They can steal and re-create but when it comes time to improve, they don’t have the IQ for this and will stay stagnant.

  11. anon[266] • Disclaimer says:
    @Renoman

    Well it’s working in Israel. It’s not that hard to enforce a border you just put a 50 cal machine gun every hundred yards over a hundred foot no man’s land, shoot the intruders and don’t bury the bodies. They’ll get the message.

    this is the thing – (((they))) are allowed to be serious and you aren’t

    • Agree: mark green
  12. @Brabantian

    Brabantian—anti-migrant nationalist sentiment escalates more quickly and sharply on much of the Continent than in Britain

    The Continent has the advantage of proportional representation (PR), which makes it easier for new parties to win seats in regional and national assemblies. Britain’s first-past-the-post greatly favours the Establishment parties. At the 2015 general election, UKIP received 12·6% of the vote and one seat. Under PR, UKIP’s 12·6% would have translated into about 80 seats in the House of Commons.

  13. Still, I’m starting to worry that Trump’s need for a Wall—and he really does need it, if he’s not to be thrown out of office in 2020 to jeers of derision and hoots of contempt—

    I keep hearing this. Deplorable is not the same as stupid. If Deplorables don’t get their wall they will rightly blame the Democrats. Personally I think the wall is a dumb idea. But I support it because I hate the people who oppose it. I oppose everything they do even if it’s right. I oppose their very existence. I have adopted the attitude of my political enemies.

  14. If you add an end to sanctuary cities to that list, it would address the safety issues that the Wall’s staunchest advocates prioritize, whereas an end to birthright citizenship addresses the biggest economic problem, the welfare problem, the fact that the flat-broke USA spends $113 billion yearly on illegal aliens, mostly because of US-born kids that qualify them for the free stuff.

    If a wall is built with no reduction in the flow of legal immigration, an end to birthright citizenship does no good since the SCOTUS already ruled that the children of legal immigrants are automatic citizens. The immigrants are well aware of this, or either, there is a lot of age discrimination in the immigration review process.

    Every legal (and illegal) immigrant that I see has more than one kid under three, qualifying many of them for layers of monthly welfare and refundable child tax credits up to $6,431 that enable them to undercut US citizens in their own country’s labor market. When they keep traceable income under the income limits for welfare in single-breadwinner households, they are in a much better economic position than non-welfare-eligible, underemployed citizens of the USA.

    The argument about the brain drain is also compelling. Of course, developing countries need their brainiacs. And America only needs the few immigrant brainiacs who have the true temperment to assimilate in a Western Republic. There is also the issue of the brainiac hierarchy; all of the high-IQ immigrants do not serve the same societal function.

    Some can do more harm than good, having outsized influence over the USA’s pool of influential people. These educated, but non-technical and non-scientific, immigrants are not performing heart surgery. They are using their verbal persuasive skills—their intellectual closing skills—to coax our elected leaders to act in ways that are more beneficial to the countries they left than to the flat-broke USA.

    When educated legal immigrants of a less technical or scientific nature come here, many of them noticeably ascend to a bunch of think-tank positions and high-government agency positions, which give them a platform to advocate for—surprise—more financial or military involvement in their countries of origin, regardless of whether or not this is good for the flat-broke United States of America.

    This is not to be confused with the “flat-broke”—but, in reality, flat rich—Hillary Clinton. She is just one of many natural-born-citizen global adventurers who—before, during and after holding high-political office—has made a lot of money by saying what foreign interests around the world want to here, like her claim that American Deplorables resent the success of Indian Americans. Hillary gets paid by foreigners to insult American citizens @ thousands—and sometimes hundreds of thousands—per speech.

    Some try to blame Hillary’s secretary for this issue, but umm, at some point you have to ask whether the person with a place in history, the person who made multi millions, might have some responsibility in the matter. Maybe, it is time for the hiring manager to hire a few non-globalist American citizens, even if it is not as fashionable.

    https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/commentary/ct-perspec-parker-electoral-college-india-trump-win-james-comey-0315-story.html

    It is not like we lack native-born versions of America Last salespeople; we do not need to add to the damage with endless numbers of imported globalist sales talent.

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/danalexander/2016/11/08/how-bill-house-hillary-clinton-made-240-million-how-much-earnings-rich-white/#6184d85e7a16

    If a high-placed legal immigrant, constantly demanding to policymakers that the US government pour money into his / her birth country really loves that country, s/he will make the sacrifice to stay in that country, fighting to change it for the better, even if s/he and her progeny have a less cushy life.

    Some smart naturalized citizens do take the side of the USA, putting it first after adopting it as their own, but they are not the ones with access to the forums that count in changing US policy.

    That may be due to the fortunes that all of our political elites can—and do—make by courting elites around the globe.

    Obama even got $3.2 million for one global speech. If such money is offered up, it is against human nature to refuse it. That is why the whole system needs to be changed, rather than punishing any of these people who cashed in on it in show trials. Staring with the careless mass-scale immigration deluge, the whole America Last globalist system needs a strict and thoughtful overhaul. By punishing a few without big changes to immigration policy and standards of conduct for officeholders, nothing will really change.

    https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-05-09/obama-pockets-32-million-speaking-gig-

    https://blog.dilbert.com/2017/05/03/pre-bribing-a-president/

  15. dvorak says:
    @Renoman

    If you don’t do this or build a wall your Children will be fighting a War down there. Don’t be gutless, fix it now.

    Lol it’s far too gone for your prescription.

    The battle for hearts and minds is primary and we’re already in full chaotic retreat in the culture wars. Tim Tebow wants to adopt a Benetton family (remember, conservatives are just liberals who are 15 years behind the times – 15 years ago Brad and Angelina started their Benetton family).

    Most recently, the Southern Baptist Convention has been taken over by homo-hipsters.

  16. @Realist

    Why didn’t he push for the wall when he had a chance???

    First, I’ve never believed Trump was serious about cutting immigration. Why should he be? His businesses surely benefit from cheap labor as much as anybody else’s.

    Second, the Wall is to immigration control as TSA is to flight security. It’s expensive and showy, but without progress in the other areas Derb mentions (chain migration, birthright citizenship, employer sanctions, sanctuary cities, etc.) it will have little effect. If Trump gives up anything in those areas in return for the wall (for instance, an increase in refugee quotas) the net effect is negative.

    Trump surely does want the wall; as others have pointed out, he needs it to get re-elected. (Also, it’s a nice boondoggle for the construction industry, in which he surely has friends.) But timing is crucial. If the wall is under construction, or newly finished, by Election Day, his base will be energized. If it had been started two years ago and finished by now, we’d have two more years to realize how little use it was.

  17. Anon[425] • Disclaimer says: • Website

    IF Jewish Globalists fear large white populations & feel safest with non-white Diversity and IF white folks want secure homelands of their own, there’s a win-win solution for both groups.

    Jewish Globalists all move to diverse non-white nations like Venezuela or Morocco while whites stay put in white nations. Whites get secure homelands and Jewish Globalists feel safer surrounded by Diversity. It’s win-win for both sides. Globo-Homo Jews should all go to Peru or Egypt. Lots of Diversity there and small white population.

    Meanwhile, decent Jews like Stephen Miller can be with whites.

  18. Lot says:

    The Flemish are the Western Euro ethnic group who vote at the highest rate for explicitly anti-migration parties: above 65% of them do outside the capital region.

    High time they get their own country!

  19. I reluctantly came to the conclusion that a wall is the only humane solution, so that violence doesn’t have to be used against people who use their children as human shields to illegally enter and remain – and also does not require a police state in which no one can buy or work without prior explicit permission from law enforcement in Washington.

    • Replies: @Shaun
  20. Realist says:
    @Rex Little

    First, I’ve never believed Trump was serious about cutting immigration. Why should he be? His businesses surely benefit from cheap labor as much as anybody else’s.

    Agreed, plus I believe Trump is a member of the Deep State. All his actions, of interest to the Deep State have been in their favor.

  21. I learned politics from cartoons. Lucy always jerked the football away. Wimpy always promised to pay on Tuesday. Applying those lessons to border security, do not rely on Democrats to keep their word about immigration reform or law enforcement. Reagan fell for that.

  22. “Would I give up on a wall in return for universal compulsory E-Verify with severe sanctions on offending employers? Yes, I would.
    Would I give up on a wall in return for a full moratorium on legal immigration, some tiny categories like spouses and dependent children of citizens excluded? I think I might.
    Would I give up on a wall in return for an end to birthright citizenship, the green card lottery, refugee settlement, and asylum—again with a handful of Solzhenitsyn-level exceptions on asylum? Maybe.”

    Your list here doesn’t make much sense to me.

    There’s no reason not to have a the wall in conjunction with every other form of immigration enforcement.

    W should have had a moratorium on immigration period – some 18 years ago, after 9/11 to overhaul our immigration process. The wall is but one aspect of a full spectrum check-up.

  23. Zogby says:

    It’s not a question of morality, it’s a question of bearing the cost. Trump said he’d build a wall and Mexico would pay for it. If he gets the money from Mexico, he gets to build his wall. If he can’t get the money from Mexico, he doesn’t get to build his wall. It’s that simple. Next question.

  24. Hey John

    This 5G stuff is sprouting up all over Long Island like an invasive weed species……as ugly as the god dam bamboo invasive weed species….our freaking brains are gonna be fried……but here is the really interesting thing:IT’S ALL OF ABOUT LOG2….

    I have no idea what your next book is gonna be on….LOG2 wouldn’t be a bad idea……Ed Witten has new survey-thematic-paper about LOG2 and Shannon Capacity…..very readable……

  25. Giuseppe says:

    Would I give up on a wall in return for universal compulsory E-Verify with severe sanctions on offending employers? Yes, I would.

    Be careful what you wish for. E-Verify is a great evil, a biometric system developed by the US military that would eventually function as a virtual national identity card that would track US citizens everywhere they go. Oh wait, we have enhanced driver’s licenses now.

  26. Well…it’s that time of the year again(monodromy) for the Christmas Time-Holiday Hollywood Mega-Blockbusters…..

    In Theaters across America(Turdistan) right now:LOG2 FRIED MY FUCKING BRAINS OUT!!!!

  27. @War for Blair Mountain

    Doesn’t monodromy have something to do with…TRANNY-SERIES?

  28. John

    America….Christmas Time 2018=THE MONTHY PYTHON CHRISTMAS DING DONG SKIT….

    Dear Christian Russia…PLEASE NUKE AND BLACTOP THIS SATANIC FILTH!!!!

    Perhaps someone would like to put this Monty Python skit up on John’s Blog…

    John

    Eric Idle is very good friends with the homosexual degenerate Jon Cooper….your neck of the woods Lloyd Neck…..Jon Copper exchanged his wedding bowels with another man at the SATANIC EPISCHOPAL CHURCH you used to attend(or was it the one across from COLD SPRING HARBOR LAB……the one where Kevin Klien’s homo character exchanged his wedding bowels with another man…..)downtown Huntington…

    Jon and his husband adopted a whole bunch of Central American and Negro-half breed children…I reckon that Christmas Time at the Cooper Mansion in Lloyd Neck is a carbon copy of THE MONTY PYTHON “CHRISTMAS” DING DONG SKIT…..Jon is your Neighbor…..

    Jon Cooper’s Central American Chatel Slave Operation..not to far from the Westbury Holiday Inn where Singer Connie Francis was brutally raped in by a FILTHY NEGRO…just before going on stage at the Westbury Music Fair in August 1975…..Connie Francis wrote a book about her brutal rape…Paul Kersey should read the book……if he can stomach it…..The Race War should have started in August 1975….

  29. Veracitor says:

    We have compelling reasons to fend off most would-be immigrants. For our convenience, not for theirs.

    I think it is a mistake to suggest that we should base our immigration policy on some judgement about what is good for poor source countries.

    That gives too much latitude to immigration boosters, who will argue that emptying poor countries into the USA is good for the poor countries (they can send us all their problems! Like Castro emptying his jails onto the Mariel boatlift. Or they can collect remittances! Thus transmuting our welfare state into a foreign “aid” program).

    It needlessly angers would-be emigrants who naturally resent us telling them that we consider them slaves to the despots and the unwashed masses of their own countries. Some of those folk may find a chance to revenge themselves upon us, as by attacking travelers.

    It also gives first-world leftists another excuse to support their pet third-world tyrannies, as when the New York Times in 2014 finally discovered an immigration program it didn’t like: permitting Cuban doctors to defect to the USA; see the discussion in Steve Sailer’s weblog http://www.unz.com/isteve/nyt-discovers-an-immigration-program-it-doesnt-like/#comment-775497.

    I feel some sympathy for smart people born in dull countries. If they don’t have a bent toward exploitation then they are liable to hope for a life in more congenial surroundings. My sympathy does not override my judgement that it’s a bad idea to bring those people into my country, but I won’t tell them their bad luck is actually my view of what is “good for their country.”

  30. I like the wedding bowels, line that War used.

  31. Currahee says:

    “Ethiopian medical school” ?

  32. buckwheat says:

    Between the blacks and the brown parasites from the South this country is doomed to be nothing more than a welfare infested shithole. It was built by white people and will be destroyed by colored people. Deny it and look to South Africa and see our future.

  33. Nonwhite LEGAL IMMIGRANTS voting The Historic Native Born White American Working Class Majority into a White Racial Foreigner….White Racial Minority….within the borders of America is IMMORAL….AN ACT OF WAR….A RACE WAR…..

    • Replies: @Reuben Kaspate
  34. swamped says:
    @Tulip

    the “symbolism” of The Wall should not be underestimated: if you don’t get The Wall, you won’t get any of those other things, the tide will turn & morale lost

  35. swamped says:
    @Renoman

    No comparison: Israel’s Wall is totally illegal, as ruled by ICJ in ’04 (and immoral, Nancy!); U.S. wall within it’s own, legal border is totally legal (and moral, Nancy!)

  36. swamped says:

    if these people are leaving their home countries (which subsidized their training) for $$$, the moral onus is on them, they’re not being kidnapped: but it does help to drive down wages in U.S., especially H-1B visas which are very popular around Pelosi’s district

  37. Mokiki says:
    @Rex Little

    The wall would be far from useless. Israel built the Sinai border barrier to keep out African migrants. It cost a mere 3 million per mile. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egypt–Israel_barrier

    • Replies: @Felix Krull
  38. @Mokiki

    @Mokiki

    Israel’s wall only works because it’s backed by Israel’s immigration policy.

  39. @Zogby

    I got the impression that Trump meant that Mexico would pay for the wall via import tariffs.

  40. George57 says:

    More than 95% OF THE countries through out the world have fences, walls, barriers of some sort along their border. It is the common action of the world. And guess what,
    The walls work. And they consistently work. Any one that argues that walls do not work, is in denial, cannot read, and has no real life experience.

  41. Mexico would pay for the wall in 5 minutes and or give us the country and help us build it untill it was done.And pay for the maintenance and security to keep the people out. Mexico would also go live on Tv and say it was very rude of them to expect the the US to pay for the problem they created and does Nothing to stop. And create the need for an ugly fence that ruined Anerican soil.

    And mexico could hand the check and keys to  Wait for it————————————————   Trump in person.

    IF we just shut off all the ports of entry and exit  with No Warning.    Tic Toc.

  42. No, no, no! All wrong headed.
    Free immigration is a boon to countries…as long as it is not subsidized. Every immigrant arrives with two hands and a mouth. They produce and they consume. They help with the division of labor and they make us all richer.

    But the key is “not subsidized.” If they get free education, free health care, free housing, free food, etc., then their contributions to the welfare of the country are muted or reversed. Indeed, the existence of free stuff encourages those who hope to someday take advantage of the free stuff (even though illegals use fewer government services, on average, than they pay in taxes, there are productive and unproductive individuals and groups within the illegal immigrant community) and will likely join the chorus for more socialism.

    We should not fear or condemn people who come here to work and support themselves and their families. They are helping us all live better. But what about the illegal alien consumers of tax money? Left unchecked, they will grow and put communities into bankruptcy. How do we keep them out? This is simple and it will work 100% without costing us a single dime: stop giving them free stuff.

    The contrary rejoinder is that we can’t keep them from using OUR free stuff (like public schools, and government financed health care) because they would produce fake documents or find loopholes in the laws. This is true. No socialist system has ever found a way to prevent the ineligible from getting benefits they were not entitled to, due to fraud and chicanery. If not checked, it leads to bankruptcy. The solution is to eliminate socialism for EVERYBODY. Then the ‘problem’ of immigration goes away overnight…if you don’t work or are not voluntarily supported by someone who does, then you don’t eat, have a home, buy food, etc.

    But Americans will NOT give up their socialism. Too many of them like their free stuff. To prevent the ineligible immigrants from conniving a way to get free stuff too, we have to resort to expensive, invasive,and even violent measures. Walls, E-Verify, ICE raids. In short, we need to become a police state.

    So there is your choice. Open immigration and no free stuff, or socialism and a police state. You choose.

    • Agree: onebornfree
    • Replies: @FvS
  43. polistra says:

    In the first place, the whole issue is misdefined by both sides as always. It’s not a question of BUILDING a wall, it’s a question of IMPROVING the existing wall. Make it less permeable, more of an obstacle, and extend it to areas where migrants find it easy to sneak through. Some stretches are so remote from Mexican cities that they aren’t worth the trouble in cost/benefit terms. No wall is ever perfect, but better weatherstripping and better deadbolts keep out MORE bugs and burglars.

    In the second place, migrants are the most serious problem in Europe, but migrants AREN’T the most serious problem for American workers. Offshoring is the real problem for American workers. Trump has vaguely complained about offshoring, but hasn’t even proposed any serious solutions let alone implemented them.

  44. Bill H says: • Website

    In 1986 Congress passed legislation granting amnesty to approximately 4 million illegal immigrants, based on the promise that such amnesty was a one-time deal and would never be offered again. That was a necessary condition, given that otherwise illegal immigrants would flood the country based on the assumption that amnesty would periodically be granted for political reasons. Sure, enough, amnesty seems to be pending on a repeated basis for political reasons, giving immigrants every reason to continue illegal entry.

    • Replies: @densa
  45. onebornfree says: • Website

    Ron Johnson said: “How do we keep them out? This is simple and it will work 100% without costing us a single dime: stop giving them free stuff. ”

    Exactly!

    Besides, even if built according “to plan” [an impossibility, of course, given the nature of governments], the border wall would not prevent illegal immigrants [after all the free stuff], except maybe in the very short term, until people found various ways around its presence.[To get the free stuff].

    As it stands [i.e. free stuff fully guaranteed!], a border wall would end up as just another worthless boondoggle that would only benefit the contractors and the politicians, just like every other government program throughout history.

    Regards, onebornfree

  46. Truth says:
    @Realist

    He has made his billions in service industries which thrive on cheap, easily replaceable low-skilled labor.

    Why would he possibly want to build a wall?

  47. APilgrim says:

    Drive the wetbacks out at bayonet-point.

    Set up landmines and machine-gun emplacements.

    Shoot to kill.

    Or build a wall.

  48. onebornfree says: • Website
    @Tulip

    “The wall is pure bullshit politics. Building a wall won’t reduce the millions of illegals here, it won’t change our system of legal mass immigration, and, while it may make it harder to get it in, people will find a way to exploit the system. Its pure symbolism, …”

    Exactly, I couldn’t have said it better. It will be just another government boondoggle that accomplishes nothing but enriches contractors , politicians and border guards [who will get paid off to turn a blind eye to the highest bidding groups of illegals] .

    Just another frickin’ government scam that pretends to “fix” a problem that it created in the first place.

    Furthermore, what exactly is “moral” about robbing people at the point of a gun and using some of the acquired loot to build a wall – [which won’t work anyway]? Beats me!

    Regards, onebornfree

  49. Christo says:

    A physical wall will not stop all illegal immigration and it does nothing to find or remove aliens who cross it or ones already here. Also such physical barriers disrupt the natural environment and movement of animals.

    We don’t need a physical “wall”. What is needed is actual enforcement of all of our immigration laws , and increased funding for the size and scope of Government offices and programs that enforce those laws and that search and find illegals by their presence and actions, concurrent with increasing funding for more, courts , and facilities to detain , process and extradite aliens out of the country. We will get a lot more out of $5 billion that way and less total aliens/criminals in our country.

    As to stopping people at the border A physical wall is of no value without people watching it( enough ladders and rope will defeat any wall. plus walls have “gates”, and if you have people watching a wall to stop people climbing over it, under it, you don’t need the wall to begin with. What I mean is any wall will require a computer operated border surveillance and detection system combined with rapid response(helicopter and other vehicles) Border patrol units to guard the wall ,and with such the wall becomes unnecessary. And either way all road crossings will have gates and agents at them , wall or not.

  50. densa says:
    @Bill H

    Agree. The incentives to invade have a lobby for increase. Curtail them and/or create disincentives. The biggest disincentive would be enforcement of a border. What is the point of building a wall if you are just going to intake anyone who shows up at it demanding asylum? It would be cheaper to build Welcome Centers to process the invaders, show them the ropes for maximizing payout, maybe give them free phones to facilitate the chain migration.

    If you put out a bird feeder, you’ll get birds, bigger birds, hawks, squirrels and eventually bears. Empty the feeder.

  51. Pat Boyle says:

    I’m feeling a Herman Khan type mood coming on (Thinking the Unthinkable).

    Most of mankind’s problems have been solved here in Twentieth First Century America. All of the ecological scares stories that I read about in the sixties have proven to be phantasms. All except the threat of over population. Steve Sailer keeps running his graphs of the population forecasts for Africa. If he were right things would be very dire indeed.

    But of course he won’t be right. In deed he can’t be right. The African populations will almost certainly crash well before it gets really high. The real danger is to the United States. it seems to me that in a few years we will solve the the problem of the wall with machine guns.

    When I see the pictures of the illegal alien alien invaders sitting on top of the temporary border walls I think – Gee, they make good targets, silhouetted against the sky. This seems inevitable to me. It will spoil our national reputation as the “good guys” but I see no way around it.

  52. nsa says:
    @Tulip

    Just come out and say it….the white deplorables got played like a crappy pawn shop guitar. For two years the Rs have owned the White House, the Senate, and the House….but still no funding for a Border Wall. How is that possible??? Note the Rs managed to find the funding for massive tax cuts going mainly to the elites and their apparatchiks, lots of funding for the bloated military / defense industry / secret police gravy train, plenty of funding for the insatiable corporate farmers who demand even more freebies, lots of funding for the Izzies and their wall. So what exactly have the Rs done for the deplorables in the last two years….besides hand out those stupid looking ill fitting made-in-China MAGA hats?

    • Replies: @Rex Little
  53. Wally says:
    @Tulip

    Has Israel’s massive wall worked?

  54. Anonymous[214] • Disclaimer says:

    Plenty of people, including lots of GoodPeople, have walls, fences or heavy security around their property. So there is no moral reason to object to a wall.

    As a matter of efficiency a 2,000 mile wall is no big deal, either. As one example, the Mormon Church (ahem, I mean Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints), which objects to a border wall, has a wall around Temple Square in Salt Lake City. Temple Square is one Salt Lake block (i.e., 10 acres) and the wall is 1/8 of a mile on each side – so half a mile of wall protecting 1/64 square miles of land. An equally efficient 2,000 mile wall would only be protecting about 62.5 square miles of land – versus the ~3.8 million square miles of United States that a border wall would actually be protecting.

    Each mile of Temple Square wall protects 1/32 square miles of land. Each mile of border wall would be protecting 1,900 square miles of land – over 60,000 times more efficient. Consider similar or far better efficiency rates compared to most other walls or fences in use.

    In engineering terms there is no real objection to a wall, either. We have hundreds of thousands of miles of roads in the US, virtually all of which have more stringent engineering requirements than a wall with Mexico would have. We have about a half-dozen interstates alone longer than a border wall with Mexico: I-90 (3,020 miles), I-80 (2,890 miles), I-70 (2,151 miles), I-40 (2,559 miles), etc. Each of these interstates is actually two separate roads (one in each direction) and each has probably hundreds of bridges along its course, either where it crosses something (a river, road, etc) or where something crosses it.

    In financial terms there is no real objection to a wall, either. Even at *$2,500 per foot* a border wall would cost only (yes – only) $26 billion. The latest aircraft carrier built by the US Navy, the USS Gerald Ford, cost $12.8 billion – not counting the fighter aircraft that go with it and all the other ships that are part of a typical carrier strike group. A border wall would probably cost less than two naked aircraft carriers, minus all the other associated costs, and would do far more to protect actual US interests than all of the *eleven* aircraft carriers currently operated by the US Navy.

    And do walls work? They’ve certainly worked for Hungary and Israel.

    So…

    Is a wall morally acceptable? Yes.
    Would a wall be efficient? Yes.
    Is a wall technically feasible? Yes.
    Is a wall financially feasible? Yes.
    Would a wall actually stop people from coming? Yes.

    So what are they objecting to, again?

  55. What is immoral ?
    Few fellow Dutch understand, or are willing to acknowledge, that discrimination of catholics was the basis of the Dutch Republic.
    This discrimination continued until say 1960, the Netherlands was ruled by politicians from north of the rivers Rhine and Meuse, protestants, atheists.
    It more or less stopped when we liberated ourselves from the churches, since 1960 or so.
    But even today there is a feeling of being second class citizens among those living south of the rivers.

    Weird how the Roman rule going back some 2000 years still has consequences, but in Germany it is the same.
    The Luther part of Germany still is different from the southern catholic part, it nowadays is crystal clear in atitudes towards migration.

    Homo sapiens is a herd animal, without a herd this animal is doomed.
    Thus the herd is defended, only those are allowed into the herd who adhere to herd values and convictions.
    Cannot remember that ever in history there was a group that said ‘please join us’, and, ‘ by joining destroy us’.

    Those that nowadays have other ideas, I see just a few possible explanations.
    Their object is to destroy whites, European cultures, whatever description one likes, the other explanation is seeing white superiority as such unasssailable that it will never end.
    Thus we can permit the charity of admitting those who, in the most optimistic scenario, have just as object a better life from our supposed flesh pots.
    That we are admitting those who do not care if we survive, culturally, or even worse, or have still more sinister objectives, this cannot be true.

  56. APilgrim says:

    We will Double Down.

    The federal government shan’t RE-OPEN, without $25B, for the Great Wall of Trump.

    The federal government shan’t RE-OPEN, without $10B, for interior enforcement.

    The Southern border shan’t RE-OPEN, without Mexico paying for the wall.

    etc etc etc

  57. eah says:

    Is Trump’s Wall Really Immoral?

    Why ask the question? — isn’t something being conceded by taking the question seriously, and attempting to answer it?

    What Would We Take Instead?

    More rhetoric of concession: ‘take instead’ — what scraps of a (yet another) compromise (or bald defeat) will “we” accept? — why not ask if “we” should beg? — rhetorical question: isn’t a big part of the problem that “we” have shown such weakness for so long, that “they” now (understandably) have open contempt for ‘us’?

    At this point in time, this kind of weak concession-making rhetoric, this sort of effete nationalism, is inappropriate, even pathetic.

    Ideally “we” would have a white nationalist determination to preserve America as a majority white nation, including determined, across-the-board enforcement of existing immigration law — if “we” did, there would be no need for a wall (which I do not favor anyway) — this is what “we” need to work uncompromisingly toward.

    “we”

    Speak for yourself.

    • Agree: APilgrim
  58. @Zogby

    Trump should just seize mexico’s assets here and pay for the wall out of that money. He also should pay for the “education” of the children of the mexican illegal aliens here in our schools out of that money. Trump should also use that money for the upkeep of mexican nationals in our prisons. Lastly, he should put a 100% surcharge on all money sent to mexico from here.

    • Replies: @Anon
  59. onebornfree says: • Website

    The Presumed Morality of Governments

    Nothing that any government has done, does today, or ever does in the future, can be considered “moral” as far as I can see.

    It’s important to understand the true, fundamental nature of all governments, past, present and future:

    “Because they are all ultimately funded via both direct and indirect theft [taxes], and counterfeiting [central bank monopolies], all governments are essentially, at their very cores, 100% corrupt criminal scams which cannot be “reformed”,”improved”, nor “limited” in scope, simply because of their innate criminal nature.”
    onebornfree

    “Taking the State wherever found, striking into its history at any point, one sees no way to differentiate the activities of its founders, administrators and beneficiaries from those of a professional-criminal class.”
    Albert J. Nock

    Of course, any individual is free to deliberately ignore the fundamental, underlying, unchangeable truth about the criminal nature of all governments and carry on regardless, which is, of course, what 99.9 % of the worlds population will continue to do.

    And so it goes…. 🙁

    Regards, onebornfree
    http://onebornfree-mythbusters.blogspot.com

  60. APilgrim says:

    President Trump should ‘up-the-ante’, with abrogation notice for NAFTA & CAFTA.

    And LOCKING the Southern Border down.

    And mass-deporting the national nightmare known as ‘Dreamers’.

    And ENFORCING the criminal statute against ‘Aiding & Abetting’ Illegal Aliens.

  61. Shaun says:
    @Fran Macadam

    If we could make some sort of Real-ID for employment that makes it impossible for an illegal to get a job of any kind in this country then it wouldnt really matter how many of them crossed the border. As soon as they realize they cant get a job or make money in this country under the table or illegally then i bet they would return to their own countries. Why stop there? Have real id for medical services, property sale transactions, renting apartments, grocery stores, etc. It might take a temporary police state to get things under control. But none of the efforts to keep illegal immigration at bay mean a hill of beans when the politicians pulling the strings are hellbent on undermining our national sovereignty for their own selfish gains.

    • Replies: @onebornfree
  62. Anon[171] • Disclaimer says:
    @joeshittheragman

    You are trolling aren’t you? Do you, by the way, know what the value of American assets in Mexico is?

    • Replies: @Reuben Kaspate
  63. onebornfree says: • Website
    @Shaun

    “If we could make some sort of Real-ID for employment that makes it impossible for an illegal to get a job of any kind in this country then it wouldnt really matter how many of them crossed the border. As soon as they realize they cant get a job or make money in this country under the table or illegally then i bet they would return to their own countries. Why stop there? Have real id for medical services, property sale transactions, renting apartments, grocery stores, etc. It might take a temporary police state to get things under control…..”

    Yup, all Amurkuns need “real ID” to hold a job, get hired , take a crap etc. etc.

    Sieg Heil comrade! 🙂

    Regards, onebornfree
    http://onebornfree-mythbusters.blogspot.com

  64. APilgrim says:

    President Trump should VETO any budget increase for the House of Representatives.

    All they are going to do, is harass Trump, his family, friends & supporters.

    Keep congressional staffs … LEAN!

  65. Attach a rider to the annual drain of US billions to Israel mandating them responsible for our border security. It’s about time we got something in return for our tax money. Since shooting women and children is what they do best, let IDF snipers cover our border’s entire length. The Jewish-controlled mainstream media and government wouldn’t dare criticize them.

    Further incentivize this program by allowing Israelis to harvest Mexican skin and body organs for re-sale, something they already do to Palestinians.

    Any documented incursions can be deducted from their annual allocation, say maybe $10,000 for every illegal who gets past their defenses.

    • Replies: @Sean
    , @Che Guava
  66. Sean says:
    @Anonymous31

    American Indians would make good border guards.

    • Replies: @Reuben Kaspate
  67. Sean says:

    Still the lure of North American or West European salaries and standard of living is enough to entice away half the country’s trained doctors.

    The exodus of the so many demoralises those who stay. For these reasons immigration has an inherent tendency to accelerate.

    • Agree: densa
  68. Reagan told the Soviets to “Tear Down this Wall.” Today the willing slaves want to build a wall to lock themselves in. Walls work both ways, but Patriots lack the intelligence to understand that. Nothing says low grade moron louder than “I’m a Patriot.”

    • Replies: @Avery
  69. I do not understand!
    How come US is still standing, with all these negative trends.
    All those supporting Zionist Globalist policies are traitors to constitution and American people.
    But than where are the real American people, are they sheep? (silence of the lambs)

    • Replies: @Reuben Kaspate
  70. Open borders is part of the Zionist NWO agenda to flood America with unlimited illegal immigration and thus change the culture and the voting block to a communist bent and thereby change the government to a full blown Bolshevik communist player in the Zionist one world government!

    Read The Controversy of Zion by Douglas Reed and The Committee of 300 by Dr. John Coleman and the Protocols of Zion to see what the Zionists have done and are doing to destroy America and the western world.

  71. Avery says:
    @never-anonymous

    {Today the willing slaves want to build a wall to lock themselves in.}

    The Berlin wall was meant to keep East Germans _in_.
    The proposed US wall is meant to keep people _out_.

    {…. to lock themselves in.}

    How is that even possible ?
    What are “they” going to do, line both sides of the ocean coasts with patrol boats end to end? And also build a wall on the Canadian border?

    And no doubt you have no front door where you live, just a curtain or something: you know, just in case “they” decide to lock you _in_ your own house and not let you leave.

  72. bucky says:

    The Wall is immoral, yes. I agree with Pelosi.

    The Wall is really a symbolic middle finger to Mexico. It is an antagonistic show of derision towards a country that we must cooperate with and get along with.

    Relations with Mexico are not a problem. Unlike Palestinians, Mexicans are not suicide bombing buses full of people.

    In my interactions with Mexicans, they’ve never posed a fraction of the problems that blacks pose.

    The truth is that Mexicans are a convenient punching bag because they are so docile, because many of them accept criticism, simply because they are so agreeable in the first place.

  73. CMC says:

    I’m asking myself what price I personally would accept for dropping all talk of a wall.

    Check out Derb ‘bidding against himself.’

  74. This from a man who left his native England, which needs more defending, and then polluting America with marrying a Chinese woman… Rosie by any other name is still Qi Hongmei. What a hypocrite!

  75. @Sean

    They sure did a great job protecting “their borders” over the last five centuries…

    • Replies: @Sean
  76. @nsa

    For two years the Rs have owned the White House, the Senate, and the House….but still no funding for a Border Wall. How is that possible???

    Very simple–the Republican Establishment hates Trump almost as much as the Left does.

    This is a feature, not a bug. Sure, it means no wall (which was a boondoggle anyway), but it also meant we didn’t get saddled with any big new agencies or spending programs during the last two years Compare that to what happened last time the Republicans controlled both the White House and Capitol Hill.

    • Replies: @nsa
  77. @War for Blair Mountain

    Corporal WfBM, when do you start marching?

  78. Of course a WALL works exceptionally well so those that say it doesn’t or isn’t needed are either fearful of it’s effectiveness or idiotic. It is also a fabulous psychological and visual reminder of Sovereign America and an imposing deterrent. Your bullet points are all additionally desirable to the WALL but not in lieu of it. Sadly, I’m highly doubtful any let alone all of it will be accomplished as the Deep State Globalization process seems to be fated to win. We had a fairly good run, but it’s Camp of the Saints time now.

    • Replies: @follyofwar
  79. @Anon

    Don’t you mean the value of the assets of the 1%, your masters, in Mexico? Don’t confuse Bill Gates’ house for your ramshackle hut…

  80. @Ilyana_Rozumova

    Of course, you don’t understand… does anyone expect that of an old doddering fool?

    • Replies: @Ilyana_Rozumova
  81. @bucky

    What is immoral about a group defending itself against disappearing and/or annihilation ?

    • Replies: @densa
    , @bucky
  82. @KenH

    Part of the effort, the part that gets low IQ military age men to lone wolf it into Europe, is the old:
    Combat, Glory, and the Loot of Empire!
    recruitment plan. Tell them its a walkover, they get to loot, and off they go. Walkover or meatgrinder, you have an offensive force that, once committed, will persist. No loot, then the whole recruitment fails. Blacks and Han usually don’t get along, but you don’t see Blacks invading Manchuria. No loot there. Same with Siberia, or for that matter Antarctica (talk about white! Nothing but white, once you’re out on the ice cap. No loot, either).

    Which doesn’t mean that the command and policy levels don’t resent Whites. Those levels loudly say that say that they do. Nor does it mean that the crunchies level (tacitcal level) doesn’t resent Whites. Quite a few of them do, and a surprising number of the crunchies I’ve met have been mindlessly aggressive. It just means that I’ve identified a weakness in the process of immigration that can be attacked by changing incentives, without changing the participant’s minds.

    This “hate” business is very similar to the old idea of “possession by the devil”, only it’s “possession by an evil emotion”. Once one brings in evil, one ends up with an Inquisition, rather like the one on Twitter etc. Inquisitions are bad business — the Catholic Church’s inquisitions, while successful in stopping the influx of Protestant thought, are a large part of what caused cultural stasis in Southern Europe (especially Spain). Stasis is death for the West. The West is in dynamic equilibrium, not sustainable stasis, and has to be so.

    “Hate crimes” in the modern sense of offensive speech are fairly recent in the US. The first one, as I recall, was passed in New York State, and first applied to an argument between two children (yes, children) on Long Island over a mild anti-Jewish slur, in what looks now quite a bit like a staged case intended to set a precedent by prosecution of an opponent too weak to fight back. Unfortunately I can’t recall the year, and haven’t been able to find it on the Web. Prior to that, hate crime was an amplification of criminal law, a sort of prohibited intent. The intent wasn’t sufficient, there had to be an actual serious crime (murder, assault, etc).
    Perhaps hate crimes for mental state should be abolished. Either that or reliable telepathy made available to the courts. As it is the slogan “no justice, no peace” is becoming more of a description than a threat.

    Counterinsurgency

  83. @bucky

    To reply in the spirit of your post (especially the part about giving the finger):

    ” a country that we must cooperate with and get along with”

    Just what Trump is proposing. We cooperate with Mexico (especially Tijuana) and get a long wall with Mexico. What’s the problem?

    Counterinsurgency.

    • Replies: @bucky
  84. Sean says:
    @Reuben Kaspate

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Border_Police

    The Israeli Border Police is renowned for including a large number of soldiers from minority backgrounds, being a particularly popular choice with Druze recruits, but also includes many soldiers from Circassian, Arab Christian and Bedouin background.

    • Replies: @Reuben Kaspate
  85. Che Guava says:
    @Anonymous31

    That is an inspired ‘modest proposal’ not quite on the level of Swift, but great.

    As a practical measure, why would the Israelis go along with it, when their kin already largely control the U.S.A., and want to dump as many braindead immigrants on you as possible?

    • Replies: @Counterinsurgency
  86. @Rex Little

    Trump had no support in the Senate because of the McCain-Flake-Graham bloc, and he knew it. Now, with McCain gone and Graham no longer under his influence, Trump might have the 50+Pence votes to get his way. Of course that would require the Turtle to exercise the nuclear option, which he is either afraid of or unwilling to do. They might think that if they kill the filibuster over this, they’ve opened up Pandora’s box and the Dems might use it in the future against them. But you know what? The Dems have proven they are ruthless enough to do that anyway.

  87. Che Guava says:

    I certainly like much of the Derb’s writings, but you are very correct, he is a refugee from England, and chose a Chinese wife.

    Chinese people of now and recent years are not very romantically inclined, the old song ‘Money ‘

    ‘That’s what I want’ is more the speed.

  88. wayfarer says:

    It is a characteristic of wisdom not to do desperate things.
    source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_David_Thoreau

    Mexico’s Southern Border Wall

    • Replies: @densa
  89. densa says:
    @jilles dykstra

    Bingo. If Pelosi wants to discuss morality, the most basic biological fact of life is that life strives for itself. And as you pointed out upthread, people require societies to survive, let alone thrive. We organized ourselves and by consent gave office to immoral people like Nancy Pelosi. The power we entrusted her with had the limited purpose of serving our society’s needs. It is immoral for office holders to instead work against us on behalf of a false and immoral value of globalize power over a people stripped of all rights of self-determination.

  90. bucky says:
    @Counterinsurgency

    As Derbyshire notes, there are a number of more effective measures than the Wall at stopping illegal immigration. It is not worth trading those for a wall because they are more effective than the Wall.

    Furthermore, the Wall really is a symbol. It likely would be located in remote areas because urban areas already have walls. It would require profligate use of eminant domain, ironically robbing many old-time white settlers of their property.

    And Hispanics are not poisoning our culture in the same way that blacks have poisoned it, and continue to poison it.

    • Replies: @Counterinsurgency
  91. densa says:

    The wall was partly Trump’s way of hammering home his message of border enforcement.

    What makes a wall effective is the will to not let people over, under or through it. That requires a military presence, the lack thereof is what got us here in the first place.

    I only began to see the possible value of a wall after seeing the criminal class of invader, the one who gets deported many times (I’ve seen as high as 20) and yet returns to steal, rape or murder. A wall might make deportation more effective.

    Also, as Rep. Paul Gosar recently pointed out, the drug trade is working through an Uber model of drug distribution. This involves many retail dealers who are merely deported if caught. A wall, combined with scrutiny at ports of entry could curtail this.

    I’ve come to believe the wall is necessary but not adequate in itself if those entrusted with our nation’s political power continue to use it against us.

  92. bucky says:
    @jilles dykstra

    The Wall won’t do it. Derbyshire himself lists half a dozen more effective non-wall measures.

    What really is needed is a dozen anti-black measures which would get at the root of the rot in America. The primary problem over the next fifty to a hundred years will be black overpopulation.

    • Replies: @Ilyana_Rozumova
  93. @Realist

    Ann Coulter, formerly a fervid Trump supporter, (“In Trump We Trust”), has now become perhaps his most articulate critic.

    She speaks to the rafters that Mr. Trump DOES NOT NEED Congress to build the Wall. It falls within his broad authority as potus to defend the nation from Invasion. All he need do is transfer a few billion from our bloated, wasteful military budget.

    Second, she asks, where is his promised pledge to sign an Executive Order banning Birthright Citizenship? The Supreme Court has never ruled on this and it’s way past time that they did.

    Third, why hasn’t Trump ever called for the repeal of the Hart-Celler Act of 1965?

    IMHO, when it comes to immigration, Trump is a phony!

    • Replies: @Realist
  94. @KenH

    No group is more under the thumb of Jewish Supremacists than are American Christians. John Hagee’s millions-strong Christians United for Israel is but one example. Even E. Michael Jones’ traditional Roman Catholics now prostrate themselves at their feet.

    The late William Pierce was on to something when he placed the lions share of blame for the sinking condition of whites on Christians rather than Jews. And it’s grown much worse today than when Pierce was alive.

    • Replies: @renfro
    , @attilathehen
  95. Anon[425] • Disclaimer says: • Website

    Stop the Californicators.

  96. @North Idahoan sometimes sipping whisky

    Then it’s up to you strong men of Big Sky country to take your stand and stop the unending zombie-like flow before they take over your territories. By whatever means necessary.

  97. @bucky

    You are dreaming together with Derbyshire.
    Once they are in all constitutional liberties do apply to them.
    Democrats will guarantee it to the fullest extent.
    BTW
    Pursue of happiness goes a long way.

  98. nsa says:
    @Rex Little

    “we didn’t get saddled with any big new agencies or spending programs…”
    Huh? The United States Space Force (USSF) is a proposed new branch of the United States Armed Forces, which is intended to have control over military operations in outer space. Your boy, Trumpstein, was quick to spot the glaring “outer space gap” and do something about it with his bigly shiny new agency….despite a 2018 deficit of over 1000 billion dollars. But your hero couldn’t come up with a measly 6 billion to start a real wall to stem the hideous turd world invasion? What a guy…..

  99. wayfarer says:

    Trump Now Threatens to Shut Off Aid to Central America over Government Shutdown

  100. @Reuben Kaspate

    I do go along what you say about me.
    (Do not understand much)
    But I certainly understand one thing. The descendants of white European people who did fight for this country established this country and build this country from bottom to top are now becoming miserable pathetic losers. (Les Miserables like V, Hugo did say) ((Also the beast Hillary said it so it must be true.))

  101. Realist says:
    @follyofwar

    Totally agree.

    Three events in an eleven year period-1965 to 1976 precipitated the down fall of the United States.

    1. Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965 also known as the Hart–Celler Act

    2. The end of the gold standard in America August 15, 1971

    3. The SC has passed down decisions that abridge the First Amendment and make a mockery of the democracy concept.
    Buckley v. Valeo, 424 U.S. 1976 and exacerbated by continuing stupid SC decisions First National Bank of Boston v. Bellotti, Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission and McCutcheon v. Federal Election Commission.
    These decisions have codified that money is free speech thereby giving entities of wealth and power almost total influence in elections.

    These three idiotic events have caused the demographic ruination of our country, the destruction of a meaningful monetary system which now uses fiat money with no intrinsic value (when a country needs more money it just prints more), as well as elimination of any semblance of equal ability to influence elections (democracy).

    • Agree: densa
    • Replies: @densa
  102. Beaner says:

    The wall is a political distraction, at best it will keep gringos out of Mexico when the USA implodes, reason it shoul be made high, andelectrified ate least. In Mexico we support the wall but at the rate the USA is going , broke, poor there won’t be any money left to do it and this is bad.
    :-/

  103. renfro says:
    @bucky

    Relations with Mexico are not a problem. Unlike Palestinians, Mexicans are not suicide bombing buses full of people.

    Walls aren’t immoral unless you build them on someone else’s land like Israel did…..which is called stealing which is immoral.

  104. densa says:
    @wayfarer

    And this is what we’re letting in? Those aren’t ‘migrants’; that’s an invasion. The Dems will say they’re Dreamers and innocent women and children. Ha, just like Merkel’s invasion.

  105. densa says:
    @Realist

    Well done. There might be some lawyers around to nitpick, but that’s a gold box.

  106. renfro says:
    @follyofwar

    Things are not exactly as you think. The evangelicals aren’t the majority of Christians in the US…they are in fact more of a ‘cult’.

    The Christians are going after Israel, slowly, but still going…add 1.1 billion Catholics and the evans are miniscule….but they have the fanaticism found in cults and and like all fanatics are much louder and aggressive in their cause so they get the political attention.

    Ex’s…
    2017
    20 Christian Leaders Send Letter to Congress, Nov 2017
    https://www.kairosresponse.org/20_christian_leaders_letter_congress_nov2017.html Nov 6, 2017 – We write as U.S. Christian churches and organizations committed to justice and … to use economic measures in the specific case of Israel-Palestine. … As churches and church-related organizations, we all share a hope and …

    2012
    Role of American aid in Israel-Palestine conflict questioned by U.S. faith leaders

    By John F. Kane
    There was a minor storm of Jewish reaction to a letter by a group of U.S. Christian Leaders – mostly representing mainline Protestant denominations — sent to Congress back in October that challenges the annual $3 billion in U.S. military assistance to Israel.

    On Israel-Palestine conflict, the Church cannot stay quiet, bishops say
    https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/…/on-israel-palestine-conflict-the-church-cannot…
    May 19, 2017 – The Catholic Church will speak out against injustice and avoid any attempt to normalize the “festering wound” of the Israeli-Palestinian situation, … power, but avoid any activities that would help the situation appear normal.

    Vatican formally recognises ‘state of Palestine’ | Catholic Herald
    https://catholicherald.co.uk › Latest News
    May 14, 2015 – Vatican formally recognises ‘state of Palestine’ on Catholic Herald | A … an end to Palestinian-Israeli tensions and supports the existence of two …

    Catholic Church in Israel blames Jewish state for current Palestinian . https://www.jpost.com/…/Catholic-church-in-Israel-accuses-Israel-of-responsibility-for…
    Feb 18, 2016 – A group of the most senior Catholic clerics in Israel, headed by the Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem Fouad Twal, accused Israel on Thursday of

    • Replies: @attilathehen
  107. A123 says:

    Two or three things would be required to end the Government Schumer-down with no wall funding. All of them aimed at making illegal immigration less attractive.

    (1) E-Verify with Employer sanctions.
    (2) Welfare-Verify with Govt and NGO sanctions for all “support / safety net” programs.
    (3) Visa “overstay” monitoring with internal enforcement. This would require multiple years to spin up so the most that could be hoped for in ending the Schumer-down is a development funding.

    Constitution based “Jurisdiction Citizenship” instead of unconstitutional “Birthright citizenship” does not need the Senate or House. It requires a Supreme Court that actually believes in the Constitution rather than the current court’s Mythtitution. We are still one or two justices away from this acheivable goal.

    Eliminating work visas, primarily H1 and OPT, where American citizens can fill jobs (e.g. wage suppression) can also be largely fixed by having the Labor Dept. strictly enforce existing laws. The current regulations do not match the law. Improving the underlying law would be helpful, but is not immediately essential, so it is not suitable for a Schumer-down bill.

    More information on H1-B visa abuse can be found here:

    https://cis.org/Disney-Death-Star

    • Replies: @onebornfree
  108. Agent76 says:

    I would never believe Pelosi and here is why. Who believes these people in D.C.?

    Jul 22, 2009 Speaker Pelosi on Restoring Pay-As-You-Go Budget

    Discipline Today, the House passed the Statutory Pay-As-You-Go Act 2009 (HR 2920) by a vote of 265-166.

    Jan 20, 2017 Here’s how much debt the US government added under President Obama

    Based on quarterly data released by the US Treasury, the debt at the end of 2008 – just before Obama took office – stood at roughly $10,699,805,000,000. As of the third quarter of 2016, the most recent data available, the debt as Obama is set to leave office stood at $19,573,445,000,000.

    https://amp.businessinsider.com/national-debt-deficit-added-under-president-barack-obama-2017-1

    • Agree: wayfarer
  109. onebornfree says: • Website
    @A123

    A123 says: “Two or three things would be required to end the Government Schumer-down with no wall funding. All of them aimed at making illegal immigration less attractive.”

    You appear to be suffering from a bad case of what has been called “Dictator Syndrome”:

    “…Running the Gauntlet of Political Action

    “Just for a moment, think about something you wish the government would do and that nearly everyone would like to see happen — provide swifter and surer punishment for criminals, teach children right and wrong, furnish health care to those who don’t have it, bring peace to Bosnia, or whatever. Imagine a goal so important that it seems to justify using government’s power to coerce.

    And now, consider what will actually happen to your program.

    To get it enacted you’ll need political allies, since alone you have only limited influence. But other people will support your plan and work for it only if you modify it in dozens of ways that further their goals and satisfy their opinions.

    Suppose you make the necessary compromises and amass enough support to pressure the politicians to vote for your revised program. Who will write the actual law? You? Of course not. It will be written by the same legislators and aides who created all the laws, programs, and problems you object to now. Each of them will compromise your program still further to satisfy his political supporters.

    And if the law passes, who will administer it? You? Of course not. It will be implemented by bureaucrats — many of whom will use it to pursue goals quite different from what you had in mind. They won’t care what your purpose was. It’s their law now, and they’ll use it to suit their objectives.

    And, lastly, the new law probably will generate many disputes — cases that must be settled in a courtroom. Who will decide those cases? You? Of course not. It will be the same judges who today rule according to their own beliefs, rather than by reference to the written law. A judge may even rule that your law means exactly the opposite of what you had intended.

    By the time your program has run this gauntlet, it will be far bigger and far more expensive (in money and disrupted lives) than you had imagined. And it will have been twisted to satisfy many factions. In fact, your program may end up being the opposite of what you had intended.

    In any case, you will have provided a new tool by which others can use government for their own ends.”

    From: You,Trump,Sanders Etc., Vs “Dictator Syndrome”
    http://onebornfree-mythbusters.blogspot.com/2015/08/do-you-suffer-from-dictator-syndrome.html

    Regards, onebornfree

    • Replies: @A123
  110. @renfro

    Black/Asian Catholics don’t count. The RCC has collapsed. Diversity has destroyed it. The Orthodox Church with its racial/ethnic churches is the church for the West.

    • Replies: @Uslabor
  111. Stopping immigration is a very good idea, but I weary of Derbyshire’s flag-wrapped crowing about his “patriotism.” He is no more an American than I am a Mexican. We are both foreigners legally resident in somebody else’s country. I at least have the minimal manners not to be a guest in the home of another and try to run the household’s affairs.

    Precisely why does he, a legal alien, think that what he wants for a country not his is patriotism? That it is his business to decide? In this case patriotism is not the last refuge of a scoundrel but of a meddlesome Aunt Polly. The same might be said of Brimelow, another unreconstructed Brit.

    If it sounds like a Brit, has the body language of a Brit, and moralizes like a Brit, it’s probably a Brit. No?

    Like Coulter, Mac Donald, Brimelow and so on he is of the DC-Manhattan talking heads. Has he ever been to Latin America? Perhaps he has. For all I know, he has a doctorate in Latin Studies from the University of Buenos Aires. But if he doesn’t–if he hasn’t had the intellectual integrity to make some slight effort to find out what he is talking about–then he is as I have thought. I believe that in England they has an expression, “Bugger off,” n’est-ce pas? Or do your homework.

  112. @KenH

    while the Jewish led left will have moved on to calling for the confiscation of white property and wealth as well as their internment and mass murder a la S. Africa today.

    That seems like an extreme comparison. South African whites are certainly under pressure today, with perhaps thousands killed by rampant black crime over decades. But that’s not even 0.1% of the 4.5m white South African population. Whereas 50% of the Jewish population was killed during Holocaust. Tutsis underwent mass murder, with at least 500,000 killed in a matter of months. South African whites, not so much, although they should probably be making plans to leave, if they haven’t already departed.

  113. onebornfree says: • Website
    @Frederick V. Reed

    Yay! Fred Reed! Always love your stuff I read at Lew Rockwell’s site over many years. Thanks so much, very funny stuff. [And screw all these snotty statist Brits – “bugger off” indeed! ]

    Regards, onebornfree

  114. @bucky

    All old objections. This has been kicked around for decades, and you’re acting as if the question was broached for the first time yesterday.

    At any time, one may argue for delay on the grounds that something better is possible, given delay. However, delay is the most effective form of denial, and denial appears to be what you are trying for.

    Enough. We go with what we know works.

    Counterinsurgency

  115. So if Trump and the Republicans want whites to start having more children shouldn’t they be increasing welfare, food stamps, free healthcare, childcare, collage, tax incentives, etc to white families, not the opposite? Or even some kind of pay increases, higher minimum wages.
    Why aren’t white folk having more children. Seems to me it because they can’t afford it. Everything costs too damn much, and is increasing. So why not sign some executive orders handing out lots of free shit to white families if they want to increase white population?
    Most politicians don’t even want to make healthcare more affordable, or pass single payer, most Republicans are triggered as hell by the mere mention of increasing wages/minimum wage.

    Call me stupid but this seems to be the best way to boost child birth rates and no Republicans and most Democrats won’t talk about this. They have no problems sending Israel and other foreign govts. more and more welfare money. Israel has single payer healthcare, thanks Murican Goyims!
    21 trillion lost at the Pentagon, trillions pissed away by the MIC killing innocent people round the world. Trillions in welfare to International corporations and Wall st parasites. They sure need it.

    I think we could do better. Capitalism is killing us, same thing happened when Soviet Union died, and all the Capitalist parasites moved in and privatized everything in Russia, the people got fucked. I’m pretty sure Putin just passed some reforms in Russia to address low birth rates, so why not here? The CIA/Mossad/Mafia heroin, fentanyl, and Pharma opioid trade is killing a lot of white folk, more than the Mexicans are killing, why not shut them down? Its pretty clear that by the amount of drugs here that the govt. is helping smuggle it in. All of this could be solved pretty easily if they were interested in solving it.
    Just my opinion.

  116. @Che Guava

    Religious groups, even highly cohesive religions like Judaism, aren’t as monolithic as you might think. Back during the early Roman empire there were in essence three Jewish groups: the diaspora, the Judeans, and the Alexandrians. Each of these groups revolted against the Romans, the Judeans twice, _but they never revolted simultaneously_, which might just have worked well enough to get some concessions from Rome.

    By the same token, the US Jewish Reform community, the US Orthodox community, and Israel don’t seem to act in concert today. They have very different interests.

    Theory and language are both abstractions, something taken away from reality ( Latin abstractus drawn off, from ab {away from} tractare {drag}). There is always something of reality left behind. In this case, it’s that human groups tend to fracture, sometimes very seriously, just as they tend to cohere, sometimes beyond belief.

    Counterinsurgency

    • Agree: wayfarer
    • Replies: @Che Guava
  117. @Frederick V. Reed

    FYI, Derb has been a US Citizen since he took the Oath of Citizenship on April 19, 2002, when I believe he did in fact buy a flag. His wife is also a naturalized US citizen. His children are US citizens, his son served a hitch in the US Army.

    He has renounced and abjured all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state or sovereignty, etc, etc, including Elizabeth II, the UK, and and especially the EU.

    • Replies: @attilathehen
  118. @James Fulford

    Derbyshire wrote an article for VDare stating that Asians are smarter than whites. They are not.

    https://www.unz.com/jderbyshire/of-course-harvard-discriminates-against-asians/

    His Chinese wife and daughter voted for Obummer. They reveal what kind of males they really prefer.

    Derbyshire and his wife made the son go in the military because they could not handle him. So much for the Asian tiger mother skills. The Chinese mother is busying looking for a Chinese wife for him. Nothing Western about this family. They have to go to China.

    You write for VDare. You are an example of how VDare is just a front for other groups by defending a degenerate like Derbyshire.

    Here’s the latest unbelievable scribbling from Derbyshire.

    https://vdare.com/posts/viktor-orban-we-do-not-want-our-countries-to-be-inhabited-by-a-mixed-population-and-therefore-we-are-protecting-our-borders

  119. @follyofwar

    William Pierce was absolutely correct in blaming Western Christians (Catholics and Protestants) for the sinking condition of whites. By Western I mean Caucasians/Europeans. I have no interest in the religious belief systems of blacks/Asians/Jews.

    I am a cradle Catholic who left the RCC because I don’t accept black/Asian priests-popes. The problem of Western Christians is the acceptance of non-Western people. This is the problem. The RCC claims to be the universal church and must therefore accept everyone. Today’s “trad Catholics” have no idea of what true Catholicism is. This is because of what happened at Vatican II. I am a post-Vatican II Catholic who had to search for the true history of the RCC. The pre-Vatican II RCC required all people, including Jews, to be baptized for salvation. Ex-pope Benedict issued a statement that it is not necessary for Jews to be baptized. This statement invalidates any reason for the RCC to exist. While these are theological issues, there is another more important issue – IQ and its relation to race. RCC cannot address the IQ/race issues.

    Christianity can do very little for blacks/Asians. I still am a Christian and Christian morality is the best for a person, but blacks/Asians don’t have the necessary IQs to be as moral as Westerners. This is why blacks/Asians/Jews/Muslims must be repatriated or segregated in the West. Christianity in the Third World will never be like the Christianity started in the Caucasian Middle East and Europe. We need a Christianity only for the West.

    Also, because Catholics and Christian Zionists are constantly trying to bring in blacks/Asians in the Western churches because it’s their “duty,” they must be dealt with so that they do not destroy the West. Cuck pope Frannie is behind the invasion of Europe.

    The RCC had a plan to flood Western Europe with Nigerian priests. I heard about this on the “trad RCC” website Church Militant run by a negrophiliac, ex-homo, Michael Voris. I also saw a show on the RCC cable channel EWTN hosted by a mendacious, evil Jesuit, Mitch Pawca. A couple of years ago there were about 1500 seminarians in Nigeria who were preparing to come to Western Europe and the USA. I and others commented about this on several other websites. Fortunately, many RCC churches in Western Europe and the USA have closed in the past couple of years so this Nigerian invasion was halted.

    I do not blame the Jews for our problems. They have their homeland and all Jews in the West must move there. We have to get Catholics and Zionists to see that this is the best solution.

  120. A123 says:
    @onebornfree

    I am afraid that you are expressing symptoms of the well known:

    Temporal Reallty Dissociative Disorder.

    In all seriousness, “Do you have a Time Machine?”
    — If so, we can back to the 1700’s or earlier and build another system for U.S. governance.
    — If not, the rock-hard science of Temporal Reality requires current actions to be based on the sum of prior actions. President Trump inherited a bunch of foolish prior acts by multiple previous administrations. Working within the system to minimize and reverse those acts in accordance with the Constiution is the exact opposite of dictatorship. This is admittedly far from perfect, but it is the best that can be done with the system now in place.

    For the Schumer-down to end, the leader of the National Socialist Democrats [DNC], in this case Senator Chuck Schumer, is going to have to make a credible offer and negotiate with President Trump.
    — Schumer can offer to fund border security directly at the border (e.g. The Wall).
    — Schumer can offer indirect border security such as I suggest above.
    — Maybe Schumer can offer something good on border security that we have yet to hear. My suggestions are about likely proposals that could work, not guaranteed outcomes.

    The one certainty at this point is that to reach a negotiated end to the Schumer-down, the DNC is going to have to make a serious offer on border security. Unless of corse you are suggesting…

    Your Beloved DNC Senate Leader, Chuck Schumer, will behave like a Dictator by refusing to negotiate and intentionally creating a Constitutional Crisis.

    • Replies: @onebornfree
  121. onebornfree says: • Website
    @A123

    A123 says:“I am afraid that you are expressing symptoms of the well known: Temporal Reallty Dissociative Disorder.”

    No, the exact opposite actually 🙂 .

    Sure, maybe it would be nice if government/political solutions actually worked in the real world, but the facts clearly show otherwise; we have all been fooling ourselves; studiously ignoring all parts of very large [enormous] amounts of evidence that run contrary to what we have been programmed to believe about governments in general, and so-called political solutions.

    I have merely pointed out to you one reason [there are others] that they don’t work as fantasized , that is, the reality of how in the real world, political decisions are actually made, in what used to be called “the smoke-filled room”.

    Reality Fact: the southern border wall will, if built, just like any other government operation, fail to work as you fantasize it will .

    That is, if built , it will fail to keep out illegal immigrants in the long term. In fact, if built, illegal immigration is more likely to further increase 🙂 .

    This is because of the unchangeable reality of how all political deals are inevitably struck :

    “You,Trump,Sanders Etc., Vs “Dictator Syndrome”:
    http://onebornfree-mythbusters.blogspot.com/2015/08/do-you-suffer-from-dictator-syndrome.html

    It’s your choice. You are an individual, you can continue to believe in your Dictator Syndrome fantasies about how government operate, or you can come to your senses .

    “You Can Lead a Horse To Water, But…..”

    As a “hopeless case” I suspect you will, like most “carry on regardless”. Fine by me, one of my favorite books is “Don Quixote”, so another real world example of the denial of reality [i.e. yourself], is welcome.

    And so, my friend , I say “Dream On!”, “build the wall” etc. etc.

    regards, onebornfree

    • Replies: @A123
  122. I don’t think any reasoning person expects the wall to be 100% effective. However, it respresents a serious (if built correctly) deterrent to breachin g the US minus appropriate document or process.

    The absolutist is arguments absurd. Because it suggests a standard that is neither achievable nor expected. Great if it , but that is not expected. Though it should be designed, developed advocated as though it would work 100%. Further, since a barrier currently exist, reinforcing it is not unreasonable and makes clear a second but all important aspect of making one’s territory —

    Establishing foundation for identity management. And like copyright law serves as the symbolic and practical boundaries for ownership by which one gain benefit from the fuits of his or her labor and stewardship.

  123. The immorality is Kate Steinle getting murdered. Mollie Tibbetts murder. Jamiel Shaw’s murder.
    Illegals do massive amounts of crime.
    Gang violence. Meth. Heroin. More immorality.
    Leprosy, MERSA, typhus, chickenpox, malaria, incurable TB, AIDS, Zika, diseases we eradicated long ago. This is immoral.
    Illegals stealing work from blacks. This is immoral.

    Nancy Pelosi is a walking talking symbol of immorality.

    • Replies: @Uslabor
  124. A123 says:
    @onebornfree

    Perhaps we can reframe to a point of common ground, instead of throwing barbs like syndrome and disorder.

    Are you saying that anyone in any party that attains enough influence to be consider a leader in the U.S. system is a “dictator”? The point you are making (in my words)
    — is *not* that a specific program, such as the Wall, will not work
    — Instead you are saying that the U.S. System is broken. All attempts at any solution will be corrupted by the process to the point of failure. One might work by accident, but that is a lucky exception rather than repeatable event.

    If so, I would suggest that you may wish to use the term “authoritarian” rather than “dictator”. Dictators have ultimate an individual power. The failed and corrupt of recent history have instead collected in authoritarian groups to create pain for U.S. Citizens. All of these U.S. leaders *ahem* McCain *gag*, Obama, Romney, Clinton(s), Bush(s) were frontmen for larger groups.

    I would argue that Trump, coming from outside the authoritarian uni-party, has the opportunity to generate programs that do work. However, he cannot win every battle simultaneously and instantly. The most Trump can do in a 2-terms is begin turning the Supertanker of the U.S. Government away from ruin.

    It will take successor Presidents to truly set a new course. And, that is where your fears may come true. Trump can beat the Fake Stream Media at their own game. A weak leader could let the Populist movement be captured by National Socialist Media and be infiltrated by the PC crowd submissive to authoritarian rule. That would lead us back to the failed uni-party rule we have now.

    • Replies: @onebornfree
  125. Uslabor says:

    How is a wall going to stop people overstaying travel visas?

  126. onebornfree says: • Website
    @A123

    A123 says: “I would argue that Trump, coming from outside the authoritarian uni-party, has the opportunity to generate programs that do work…”

    Trumps wall won’t work simply because government solutions never work.

    It makes absolutely no difference that Trump is the new instigator this time around.

    Government solutions simply never work.

    Anyone who believes that Trump can/will “solve” the illegal immigration “problem” [ itself created by government in the first place] is suffering from what I call “Dictator Syndrome” a [self]delusional psychological state .

    You appear to be an unwitting sufferer – but take heart, around the world there are millions more just like you 🙂

    You,Trump,Sanders Etc., Vs “Dictator Syndrome”: http://onebornfree-mythbusters.blogspot.com/2015/08/do-you-suffer-from-dictator-syndrome.html

    The World’s Biggest, Most Dangerous Scam Is….The “Government Solutions Work” Scam:
    http://onebornfree-mythbusters.blogspot.com/2018/09/the-worlds-biggest-most-dangerous-scam.html

    Regards, onebornfree

  127. APilgrim says:

    I shall be delighted if this PARTIAL government shutdown lasts for 355 days longer. Make it a year.

    We cannot afford our government. 400,000 furloughed employees is a small step in the right direction. The expenses, overhead and disbursements these employees, will NOT cause, will be substantial. I don’t care if Trump & Pelosi do not meet, before July 4th. What is there to talk about?

    Less is more.

  128. Uslabor says:
    @Bennis Mardens

    Stealing work from whore folk, too, because they work harder.

  129. Uslabor says:
    @attilathehen

    Are you mad? Diversity didn’t kill the Catholic Church, pedophilia did.

    • Replies: @MikeatMikedotMike
  130. @Uslabor

    This is this typically ignorant narrative spoon fed to people not currently capable of understanding complex things like, say, definitions.

    In reality, the Catholic church was infiltrated by homosexuals who were interested in having authoritative access to teenage boys.

    Pedophilia is the sexual attraction to prepubescent children. A majority of the victims of sexual abuse by homosexual priests were pubescent or post. (hebephilia and ephebophilia). This is consistent with most homosexual males’ sexual preference: The pursuit of so called twinks for grooming.

    Do some reading:

    http://www.usccb.org/issues-and-action/child-and-youth-protection/upload/The-Causes-and-Context-of-Sexual-Abuse-of-Minors-by-Catholic-Priests-in-the-United-States-1950-2010.pdf

    • Replies: @APilgrim
  131. FvS says:
    @Ron Johnson

    So there is your choice. Open immigration and no free stuff, or socialism and a police state. You choose.

    Either we drastically restrict immigration or there will be more socialism, more “free” stuff, and a bigger police state to deal with the increase in crime and racial tension.


    • Replies: @APilgrim
  132. onebornfree says: • Website

    FvS says: “Either we drastically restrict immigration or there will be more socialism, more “free” stuff, and a bigger police state to deal with the increase in crime and racial tension. ”

    No. In order to try to further restrict immigration [ legal and illegal] the US will have to become even more of a socialist police state than it already is.

    End result:

    The [already] socialist police state will ultimately fail to restrict illegal immigration [because government solutions never work], but nonetheless, all legal US citizens [ i.e. “the norms”]will be required by our overlords to produce the right official paperwork, plus fingerprints, retinal scans etc. etc. etc. , to prove that they are legal citizens, in order to get a job, drive a car, rent a house, take a crap, etc. etc. , and still the illegals will come [because of all the free stuff they can get].

    Welcome to 1984, comrade! You want it, you got it.

    Regards, onebornfree

  133. APilgrim says:
    @FvS

    False Dichotomy.

    There are usually an infinity of choices, other than the ‘only 2 alternatives’.

  134. APilgrim says:
    @MikeatMikedotMike

    The Church At Rome is overrun with PERVS, due to strict priestly celibacy requirements.

    Most of the rest of the Catholic Church, also under the Bishop of Rome, has no such difficulty, because their priests are allowed to marry.

    The present Bishop of Rome is a Commie & a Globalist, but those are separate problems.

    • Replies: @Che Guava
  135. Che Guava says:
    @Counterinsurgency

    Sorry,

    I read enough of history know of the Maccaebean rebellions, and of the Hasmodean kingdom, which never rebelled.

    You also refer to a contemporary ‘diaspora’, they had no reason to be ‘diaspored’ at that time, as Roman accounts state, they were just present to be leaches.

    There are so many justifiable complaints in classical lit.

    You seem to set up a neat little joke going back 2,000 years, the Alexandrians were the root of the Sephardi, the ‘diaspora’ were the Ashkenazi, little of it makes sense.

    OK, you speak of three groups, I already accounted for two, so what of the other?

  136. Che Guava says:
    @APilgrim

    It is not due to the requirement for celibacy, but post Vatican II invasion of seminaries and other teaching institutions by Jewish people and homosexuals, in the U.S.A., in particular, this also extends to many women religious there being avid clam divers.

    That is also very wrong.

    I do think that allowing priests to marry is probably a good idea, while to allow a special place for those who are truly celibate (not crypto-homosexual) would be a good idea.

    I am a child of the Church, remain so, but Francesco, il est diablo.

    • Replies: @APilgrim
  137. onebornfree says: • Website

    “….Arguments about immigration will always be with us. But it’s important to understand that the real issue isn’t freedom for immigrants – it’s your freedom.

    Immigrants will continue to stream into this country, legally or illegally, so long as there’s a Welcome Wagon waiting at the border – offering free education, free health care, free welfare and a free lunch. We need to put the Welcome Wagon out of business, so only people looking for freedom will want to come here.

    Until then, no law, no policy, no border patrol will stop the flood of illegals.

    Whose freedom is at stake?:

    Meanwhile, new laws to limit immigration will affect you considerably. You may think those laws will keep America pure, but they will succeed only in taking more of your liberty.

    Think about it. How will the government root out people who are in this country illegally? By checking their papers, of course.

    But how do they know whose papers to check? They don’t. So they’ll have to check everyone’s papers – including yours.

    That means more invasions of your privacy, higher taxes, more corruption in law enforcement. The police will be allowed to stop you at will and ask for your identity card – and to search your property without a warrant, checking your car or home to see if you’re harboring illegals. Your employer will have to take more of the money available for wages and divert it to filling out forms and complying with bureaucratic inspections. The red tape also will add to the prices of the things you buy.

    And all the while, the people you thought you were keeping out will continue to show up to tend your yard and wash dishes at the local restaurants……..”

    From: “The Immigration Scam”:
    http://onebornfree-mythbusters.blogspot.com/2017/11/the-immigration-scam-by-harry-browne.html

    Regards, onebornfree

    • Replies: @Sowhat
  138. APilgrim says:
    @Che Guava

    Martin Luther had a great deal to say about the PERVS in the Roman Catholic Church priesthood, monks, and bishops. And he tied the problem to the celibacy requirement, 500 Years ago.

    Within the Lutheran Reform Areas, in Germany, the Priests and Monks married the Nuns, including Martin Luther during the early days of Reformation.

    Katharina von Bora, after her wedding Katharina Luther, also referred to as “die Lutherin”, was the wife of Martin Luther, German reformer and a pivotal figure of the Reformation.

    • Replies: @Che Guava
  139. Che Guava says:
    @APilgrim

    Thank you, and I know of it, but the mass breaking of vows on the parts of the monks and nuns seems not to be a good thing.

    • Replies: @APilgrim
  140. APilgrim says:
    @Che Guava

    The celibacy vows themselves are ill-advised.

    On a practical basis ALL the Reform Churches, Protestant Churches and subsequent denominations & groupings have maintained clergy marriage. Some of the Catholic groups, under the Pope (Bishop of Rome), but not in the Roman Catholic Church have married clergy. Orthodox churches have married priests. Notably Simon Bar-Jonah (AKA Simeon, Cephas, Peter, Saint-Peter) was a married man.

    Martin Luther typically BEGAN his debates on the subject with the Genesis command to ‘Be Fruitful and Multiply’. Ergo, Luther stated that every whore & gutter-slut in Germany was closer to the manifest ‘will of God’, than Roman Catholic priests, nuns, monks, bishops, cardinals & popes.

    • Replies: @Che Guava
  141. Che Guava says:
    @APilgrim

    I know most of what you say, and agree on married clergy (but not gay-married, as in the Anglican/Episcopalian ‘clergy’), but the system of celibate clergy seems to have worked quite well until the seminaries became infested with homosexuals, and that is recent.

    You are correct that the Church has placed itself in a strange position through its imperialism, accepting so many Eastern-rite churches with married priests.

    In the case of the Ordinariate, though, from my reading, it seems that while married priests are accepted, the expectation is that all ordinations within it (or to it) are to be celibate or crypto-homosexual. From what I have seen of the Anglican church in a couple of cities overseas, they should have no trouble with a heavy supply of the latter.

    As for the other religious (nuns and monks), celibacy is part of the vows, it is just one of the principles (although, as I was saying in my earlier post, some portion of U.S. nuns are not celibate, but homosexual).

    So, probably better if such convents are dissolved.

    The presence of non-priest religious is also the case in Buddhism, although, in the south (Thailand, Burma, Sri Lanka, etc.) being a monk isn’t necessarily permanent, but they follow the vows in the time (of course, some must stray at times). I don’t think they have nuns. In Japan, Buddhism still has nuns. They do not appear to be hypocrital homosexuals, and I would say the same for Japanese Roman Catholic nuns.

    I hope that you will reading my reply, found an article today that was startling to me, and will likely interest you. Strongly recommended.

    https://www.firstthings.com/article/2019/01/bishops-unbound

    • Replies: @APilgrim
  142. Sowhat says:

    ,

    I’m worrying that this Wall obsession is crowding out real patriotic immigration reform.

    There will be no wall or barrier, although it might help our National Security. There has been no comprehensive immigration reform in the last forty+ years because, well before Brush Sr. spoke glowingly about the NWO in 1993, both Parties in Congress had their fair share of America-Hating Communists already installed and were marching, lockstep, toward NWO UTOPIA. This was planned by Rockefeller/ The U.N., The CFR, and now the offshoots like UNESCO AND THE W.H.O. Trump knows this and that is why Trump and Bibi bailed on UNESCO, last week. There are numerous videos by the JBS on YouTube. I invite you to watch one, below. (Every time the JBS is mentioned there are NWO trolls ready to pounce with criticism and denial.)
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCrFSIr1n9V__DKG3CVANNDQ

  143. Sowhat says:
    @onebornfree

    I agree with you. The system-The Establishment- is and has been inclined (sold out) for many moons. The NWO is drooling with anticipation.
    Chain Migration here is a misinterpretation of the law but, that won’t undo what has already been accomplished by the destroyers.
    Why attempt to reform? Why attempt to fix a law when no one has followed the letter of the Law for decades?

  144. APilgrim says:
    @Che Guava

    You might find this paper to be of interest, or take a look at some of Martin Luther’s writings on these subjects, from this list in the bibliography …

    ‘Martin Luther on Marriage and Family’, Trevor O’Reggio, Andrews University, [email protected], Digital Commons @ Andrews University, Faculty Publications Church History, March 2012, https://digitalcommons.andrews.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1019&context=church-history-pubs

    [MORE]

    Luther, K. (April 2, 1546). Letter to Christina Von Bora, Wittenberg. (P. Smith, Trans. & Ed.). The life and letters of Martin Luther. Boston and New York: Houghton Mifflin Company.
    Luther, M. (1519). A sermon on the estate of marriage. In LW, 44 : 8.
    Luther, M. (October 6, 1520). The Babylonian captivity of the church. In LW, 2 : 269, 270, 273.
    Luther, M. (1521). On monastic vows. In LW, 44: 243-400.
    Luther, M. (1522). The estate of marriage. In LW, 45 : 11-49.
    Luther, M. (1523a). Commentary on 1 Corinthians 7 (1523). In LW, 28 : 1.
    Luther, M. (1523b). Why nuns may leave cloisters with God‟s blessing. In S. Ozment (Ed.). (1983). When fathers ruled: family life in Reformation Europe (p. 17). Cambridge, M. S.: Harvard University Press.
    Luther, M. (1524a). Der 127. Psalm Ausgelegt (WA 15: 374). In W. H. Lazareth (Ed.), Luther on the Christian home (p. 150). Philadelphia: Muhlenberg Press.
    Luther, M. (1524b). Parents should neither compel nor hinder the marriage of their children and the children should not become engaged without their parents‟ consent. In LW, 45: 385-393.
    Luther, M. (1529). Large Catechism. In LW, 54 : 222-223.
    Luther, M. (1530). On marriage matters. In LW, 46: 259-320.
    Luther, M. (18 August 1520). Address to the Christian Nobility of the German nation. In LW, 44 : 176.
    Luther, M. (1529). Small Catechism. In M. Luther. Martin Luther’s large & small Catechism. N. L. New Vision Publication.
    Luther, M. (August 11, 1526). Letter to Michael Stifel. In WA, Br, 4: 108, n.1032.Translated by Lazareth, 31.
    Luther, M. (August 6, 1521). Letter to Spalatin in Wartburg. In WA, Br 2 : 377.
    Luther, M. (January 1532). Commentary on the sermon on the mount. In LW, 21: 94, 95.
    Luther, M. (June 21, 1525a). Letter to Nicolaus Von Amsdorf in Magdeburg. WA, Br, 3, 900. Translated by Lazareth, 23.
    Luther, M. (May 4, 1525b). Letter to Johann Rühel at Mansfeld. In P. Smith & C. Jacobs (Eds.), Luther’s correspondence and other contemporary letters (Vol. 2, p. 310). Philadelphia: Lutheran Publication Society.
    Luther, M. (September 6, 1545). Sermon. WA, 51: 51. Translated by Lazareth , 213.
    Luther, M. Lectures on Genesis (Genesis 18:19). In LW, 3 : 221.
    Luther, M. Lectures on Genesis (Genesis 2:22). In LW, 1: 134-135.
    Luther, M. Vom ehelichen leben (On Martial Life). In WA, 10 (II): 304. In Lazareth, 206, 212.
    Luther, M. WA 10 (II): 294. In Lazareth, 219.
    Luther, M. WA 10 (II): 301. In Lazareth, 219.
    Luther, M. WA TR 2 : 2350a-b. Translated by Lazareth, 32.
    Luther, M. WA TR 4 : 4786. Translated by Lazareth, 32.
    Luther, M. WA, Br 3 : 900. In WA, TR 1 : 49. Translated by Lazareth, 31, 32.
    Luther, M. WA. TR 2: 650, n.2772.
    Luther, M., Pelikan, J., Oswald, H. C., Lehmann, H. T., Brown, C. B.,… Hillerbrand, H. J. (

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