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A Politically Incorrect Question About Our Fender-Bender Navy
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The state of our military is a bit worrying. Those of us with family members serving have more to worry about than the average. I have no doubt our soldiers, sailors, and airmen will do their fighting best with any mission we assign them. But politicized leadership and stupid ideas about human nature may get in the way.

These dark thoughts came to mind when I read about the latest fender-bender involving a U.S. warship. This happened when the U.S.S. John S McCain collided with a civilian oil tanker near Singapore. Ten of our sailors are missing, presumed dead. Five more sailors were injured.[ Lost at sea: The ten sailors who are missing presumed dead after cargo ship hit a US Navy destroyer in the Pacific for the second time in three months, Daily Mail, August 24, 2017.]

And this is the fourth serious accident involving U.S. Navy ships this year:

Speaking as a credentialed navigator, I say there’s something wrong here. Not having your ship run aground or collide with other ships, is basic seamanship, and made easier than it’s ever been by modern navigation technology. Human beings have been sailing ships on the sea for several thousand years, remember. This is not a new art.

There’s been some speculation that our Navy’s high-tech navigation systems have been hacked into. There are a number of problems with that theory, one of them being that the Navy itself doesn’t seem to believe it. Here for example is an extract from its report on the U.S.S. Fitzgerald incident—the one that killed seven sailors:

The collision was avoidable and both ships demonstrated poor seamanship. Within Fitzgerald, flawed watch stander teamwork and inadequate leadership contributed to the collision that claimed the lives of seven Fitzgerald Sailors, injured three more, and damaged both ships …

Several junior officers were relieved of their duties due to poor seamanship and flawed teamwork as bridge and combat information center watch standers. Additional administrative actions were taken against members of both watch teams.

Seventh Fleet Announces USS Fitzgerald Accountability Determinations, by Commander, U.S. 7th Fleet Public Affairs, August 17, 2017

In fairness to the crew of Fitzgerald, I should note that the report also contains the following:

It was also evident from this review that the entire Fitzgerald crew demonstrated real toughness that night. Following the collision these sailors responded with urgency, determination and creativity to save their ship. Their rigorous damage control efforts and dauntless fighting in the immediate wake of the accident prevented further loss of life.

OK, but it really looks as though we have a problem here. To misquote Lady Bracknell, one collision may be regarded as a misfortune; four looks like carelessness.

And the Navy’s own reports finger “poor seamanship,” “flawed teamwork,” and “inadequate leadership.”

It really looks as though the Navy has sailed into a zone of pretty acute personnel problems. But why would that be?

Call me over-suspicious [You’re over-suspicious!] but I can’t help thinking the issues are somewhat related to this:

A record 16 out of 100 Navy women are reassigned from ships to shore duty due to pregnancy, according to data obtained under the Freedom of Information Act by The Daily Caller News Foundation’s Investigative Group.

That number is up 2 percent from 2015, representing hundreds more who have to cut their deployments short, taxing both their unit’s manpower, military budgets and combat readiness …

Overall, women unexpectedly leave their stations on Navy ships as much as 50 percent more frequently to return to land duty, according to documents obtained from the Navy.

EXCLUSIVE: Deployed US Navy Has A Pregnancy Problem, And It’s Getting Worse

By Richard Pollock, Daily Caller, May 1, 2017

Oh, and what’s this? A report from the New York Times just this past Wednesday: Fort Benning Drill Sergeants Suspended Amid Sexual Misconduct Allegations. [By Jacey Fortin, August 23, 2017]. Sample quote, after the stuff about sexual harassment allegations:

The Pew Research Center said in a report this year that the presence of women in the United States military is growing. Women made up 14 percent of active duty Army personnel in 2015, and 15 percent of the active duty armed forces overall.

Concerning those allegations, by the way, I’m willing to bet—and if I’m wrong, someone who knows the facts please tell me and I will eat crow on the VDARE.com website—I’m willing to bet that a large majority of those offending drill instructors are black, and a similarly large majority of the plaintiffs are white.

That was certainly the case (as I’ve noted before) in the Aberdeen Proving Ground NCO sex scandals of the ‘90s–about 80% of the victims were white and 80% of the accused were black. [2 more Aberdeen sergeants charged NAACP says cases against black soldiers involve prejudice, By Scott Wilson, Baltimore Sun, March 26, 1997] (The official press release [PDF] names no names.)

Now, I don’t say that mixed-sex military units are the stupidest idea of the past hundred years. The competition for stupidest is just too stiff: public-sector labor unions, Affirmative Action, mass Third World immigration, body piercing

I do say, though, that if I wanted to seriously degrade the military effectiveness of an enemy, I would do everything I could to get him integrating women into his combat units.

After thirty years of cultural rot, our generals and admirals didn’t get to be generals and generals by winning wars but by promoting the correct numbers of blacks and Muslims and opening the military academies to girls and homosexuals

They don’t want to worry about steering ships. They want to focus the serious strategic questions facing the nation: installing transgender bathroom facilities in submarines, tanks and fighter planes.

(Republished from VDare by permission of author or representative)
 
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  1. OK, but it really looks as though we have a problem here. To misquote Lady Bracknell, one collision may be regarded as a misfortune; four looks like carelessness.

    Or, to quote Ian Fleming’s eponymous character in the novel Goldfinger,

    Mr Bond, they have a saying in Chicago: “Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time it’s enemy action.”

    Hence the understandable speculation about enemy action, i.e., hacking.

    • Replies: @Clyde
    , @Tom Welsh
    , @Rdm
  2. Anon • Disclaimer says:

    The US military has merely decided to start employing the camp followers that have always accompanied armies instead of letting them fend for themselves. I dare say this step was taken with the notion that 1) It’s easier to keep men in the service if they have easy access to safe sex (this basically being a bribe for the enlisted men) and 2) The camp followers think it’s a great idea in this expensive economy that the US government is subsidizing the creation of their families.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    , @Wally
  3. Anonym says:

    The Navy must be refashioned into a force where the time-honored traditions of Rum, Sodomy and the Lash can once again flourish. It will act like a magnet to attract the homosexuals, hopefully diverting them from politics. Here is a helpful and educational recruiting video.

    • LOL: whoever, Kyle McKenna
    • Replies: @Pat Boyle
  4. I’ll ask an even more politically-incorrect question: To what extent is the United States Navy still our navy? What does the U.S. Navy’s presence in the South China Sea, or near Singapore, or anywhere west of Hawaii, have to do with the security of the people of the United States? If the combined naval forces of China and Japan and the other nations of the region can’t protect merchantmen from pirates, well, re-route ships away and out of range.

    Almost nothing the United States military does today provides any meaningful defense for the American nation. The fact that we have a Department of “Defense” and a separate Department of Homeland Security really ought to be a clue to the genuine mission of the U.S. military: maintenance of the AngloZionist Empire.

    I know that John has a son in the U.S. Army. I hope that he leaves when his enlistment is up. If he still aspires to a military career I suggest the French Foreign Legion or some country that accepts foreign volunteers. The Army training he got will improve his situation and he might be working for an organization that actually defends its own people, or at least its own organization (in the case of the Legion). I applied to West Point years ago–today I would counsel a son to take all steps necessary to avoid conscription. It’s no longer our military.

    Jim Christian sometimes coments on Navy issues here at Unz. I wonder what his take on the situation is?

  5. Renoman says:

    Niggas and Fags, women and weirdos!

    • Replies: @Truth
  6. G Pinfold says:

    Eleven hundred gallons of oil… What the chip fryer took a direct hit?
    (Approx financial value: $15k; approx environmental impact: nil. Assuming 30 actual blue barrels went overboard, they could create a nice fishing reef for someone.)

  7. The Commanding Officer, Executive Officer, and Command Master Chief of the USS John S McCain during its collision with a oil tanker are all diversity hires.

    COMMANDER ALFREDO J. SANCHEZ. – Latino

    EXECUTIVE OFFICER JESSIE L. SANCHEZ. – Latino

    COMMAND MASTER CHIEF DEDRICK L. WALKER. – Afro

    http://www.public.navy.mil/surfor/ddg56/Pages/Bio1.aspx#.WZ-4zz6GPIV

    https://saboteur365.wordpress.com/2017/08/25/affirmative-action-f-up-commanding-officer-of-uss-john-mccain-is-a-puerto-rican/comment-page-1/

    What is more interesting is the collective silence of broadcast media regarding this fact.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @QuestionMan
  8. TheJester says:

    Other telling evidence of the social, cultural, and physical deterioration of our armed forces is the damage the US Navy ships are taking versus that inflicted when colliding with commercial ships. In short, the combat ships in our Navy appear to no longer be able to take battle damage and survive. Compare the outcomes of contemporary missile frigates bumping oil tankers and container ships compared to the shell, bomb, and kamikaze damage to American destroyers in WWII … which soften survived and returned to port under their own power.

    Current Navy ships do not appear designed to fight. They are thin-skinned electronic “gaming machines” designed for peacetime war games. The cognitive dissonance — making allowance for appearance and delusions over reality — associated with PC personnel practices is apparently making inroads in ship design as well.

    I could argue the F-35 fighter as another paradigm case of military bureaucracy tainted by a political correctness that favors appearances and delusions over reality, but I’ll stop here.

  9. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    I have a job connected with military recruiting. Most Americans wouldn’t believe who’s joining the U.S. military these days. It’s largely a jobs program for third-world immigrants or the white underclass. It’s common to see 18/19-year old recent immigrants from Africa who were living in villages without street names just 3 years prior. Or young Latinas with a child (who’s being taken care of by her parents) who are working security or MP with goal of becoming a civilian cop.

    But hey, the young people who join will be fairly well-compensated (compared to the private-employer world) and will receive life-long benefits, including preference in all government employment hiring.

    • Replies: @JVC
    , @anonymous
  10. @Diversity Heretic

    To what extent is the United States Navy still our navy?

    That’s a good question, and it could be asked of the whole military. Historically, the military defends the nation in its geographic redoubt. Our military’s mission, much less Europe’s, seems to be the defense of a global ideological order. Hence, I wonder if the partial intent is to keep the nation’s elite fighters tied up overseas rather than garrisoned on home soil lest they get any ideas about defense of the Nation as opposed to the NWO. Apparently there was serious talk within the British military when the Labour government decided to experiment with nationalization after World War II.

    On the other hand, I think pensions, medical care and housing are keeping the US military quiescent, and this gets back to Derb’s point. A lot of people join the military out of economic necessity; they are there for the paycheck, and when the mission becomes Diversity they are happy to follow orders. Soldiers with poor prospects in the private sector will do awful things to their own countrymen to keep the benefits flowing. Venezuela frankly needs a military coup, but they’re apparently well-fed and their generals don’t know economics.

  11. Alfa158 says:
    @Diversity Heretic

    French Foreign Legion is financially old-school military, meaning they don’t pay very well. US military pays far better and you can make a decent career out of it as long as you go along with the PC program, and stay out of the frontline units so you don’t get killed or maimed in a pointless war.
    You can look up the Legion Etrangere on line and see how to join up.

  12. @Diversity Heretic

    I’ll ask an even more politically-incorrect question: To what extent is the United States Navy still our navy? What does the U.S. Navy’s presence in the South China Sea, or near Singapore, or anywhere west of Hawaii, have to do with the security of the people of the United States? If the combined naval forces of China and Japan and the other nations of the region can’t protect merchantmen from pirates, well, re-route ships away and out of range.

    In the post WWII, Cold War world order the United States Navy settled into the mission of keeping international shipping lanes free from piracy and assorted robber-baron schemes. The theory (or, justification) is that this function makes us all more wealthy, including the United States.

    It’s like a lot of the post WWII order – the United States undertook the burden and expense (and consequent expansion of authority) and now we’re at a stalemate where the others who benefit won’t pick up their share of the tab, and U.S. retreat from this mission would invite the Chinese to expand into that vacuum in the Pacific.

    • Replies: @annamaria
  13. Truth says:
    @Renoman

    Yeah, I’m a little disappointed in my matches on OKCupid also.

    • LOL: Delinquent Snail
  14. Truth says:

    Hey Derb, was that a ball-point you signed that naval document with, or were the limeys still using fountain pens?

  15. Truth says:
    @Diversity Heretic

    To what extent is the United States Navy still our navy?

    To the extent that you would still be able to legally enlist and draw a paycheck, if you weren’t an old fart.

    I suggest the French Foreign Legion or some country that accepts foreign volunteers. The Army training he got will improve his situation and he might be working for an organization that actually defends its own people,

    How exactly would a half-Chinese, half-Brit American be defending his own people in the French Foreign legion?

  16. @TheJester

    The Navy has been a Destroyer Navy for a very long time. Even the ships they are calling cruisers are not armored. Things can get very much worse than what we have seen this year. Back in the 70s, the Belknap ran into the JFK, killing 6 men, injuring 36, and requiring yard rebuild periods to repair the JFK and build a new superstructure for the Belknap. You can find the aftermath pics on the innerwebz and the Belknap looks nasty.

  17. Olorin says:

    Well, under Ray Mabus the focus became more on turning the fleet into a stage setting for the Village People.

    Per Asia Times:

    While the decline started back in the Clinton era and continued through the Bush years, it was institutionalized during the Obama Administration.

    This was typified by Navy Secretary, Ray Mabus. He was seemingly more interested in foisting the Obama Administration’s progressive social experiments on the US Navy than in ensuring the force had the ships, personnel, and money needed to accomplish its mission. Fighting wars was an afterthought, if that.

    Mabus’s efforts to introduce expensive “green fuels,” repealing “don’t ask don’t tell,” expunging the word “man” from naval ratings, and naming ships after social activists who had nothing to do with the Navy, were misplaced and distracting.

    He’d have done better to ensure the Navy was spending enough time on training for basics in navigation, ship handling, collision avoidance, emergency drills, bridge operations — and not surrendering well armed US Navy patrol boats to Iranians.

    http://www.atimes.com/article/uss-john-s-mccain-collision-accident/

    Hillary visited Fitzgerald in 2011 as part of her mission as Diplomacy Granny.

    http://archive.defense.gov/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=66105

    Photos have been excised from most of the DoD public affairs links I’ve kept. But not all have been expunged.

    Archive ‘em before Goolag deep-sixes them.

    • Replies: @NoseytheDuke
    , @JGarbo
  18. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Joe Franklin

    That commander is a straight up white European (conquistador extraction) Hispanic. His bio is also pretty impressive. You might a point with the other two, but not with the commander.

    • Replies: @Joe Franklin
  19. Sanchez and Sanchez — both Puerto Ricans — were the CO and XO of the USS Songbird:

    http://www.public.navy.mil/surfor/ddg56/Pages/Bio1.aspx#.WaSIX7pFyUk

    http://www.public.navy.mil/surfor/ddg56/Pages/bio2.aspx#.WaSIkrpFyUk

    The XO appears to have gotten his undergrad degree online…

    • Replies: @bluedog
  20. @TheJester

    Yup. The LCS (“Little Crappy Ship”) is the worst example of all.

  21. @Anonymous

    Commander Alfredo J. Sanchez is a native of San Juan, Puerto Rico.

    http://www.public.navy.mil/surfor/ddg56/Pages/Bio1.aspx#.WZ-4zz6GPIV

    The commander is Puerto Rican and is not from Spain as would be a genuine Hispanic.

    Born in Puerto Rico = Latino.

    Born in Spain = Hispanic

    At 10% of the Latino population in the United States, Puerto Ricans are the second-largest Latino group nationwide, after Mexican-Americans, and are 1.5% of the entire population of the United States.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puerto_Ricans_in_the_United_States

    Regardless, Hispanic and Latino are both diversity federal protected class groups.

    My main point still stands that the most interesting news is that American broadcast media maintains a virtual blackout on who was piloting the wrecked USS John McCain.

    Diversity does good results in lots of favorable media attention.

    Diversity does bad results in a media blackout.

    • Replies: @Kyle McKenna
  22. @Diversity Heretic

    Seems like any sensible parents in the USA these days must advise their children not to enlist, or to enlist only for the shortest period possible to enable him to get the training and then get out.

    • Replies: @NoseytheDuke
    , @Corvinus
  23. JVC says:
    @Anonymous

    those third world immigrants, and other nationals are joining up in part for the “promised” US citizenship. Appears that promise along with most made by the USG is not always being honored.

  24. Rich says:

    Affirmative action, years of it, is finally showing results. I work in construction in NY and I see it all the time.We’re running out of White kids who want to do this work and the minorities we get on job sites are completely incompetent. Many of the bigger companies even promote these incompetents to supervisory positions. Give it a couple of years and all those skyscrapers in NYC are going to be crumbling.

    • Replies: @anarchyst
  25. mobi says:

    And this is the fourth serious accident involving U.S. Navy ships this year:

    All in the Far East, coincidentally.

    Also, if I were Chicoms or Norks, I’d probably look to maximize my chances by targeting the ships with the most diverse leadership crew.

  26. Ivy says:

    These Navy collisions and other personnel problems make the swabbies in McHale’s Navy seem like overachievers.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/McHale%27s_Navy

  27. @Olorin

    Perhaps it was a typo and Derb really meant to write Gender Bender Navy.

  28. @RadicalCenter

    “Seems like any sensible parents in the USA these days must advise their children not to enlist”

    This has been the case since Vietnam, at least for any parent who sees no point in raising children so that they may die in conflicts based on lies.

  29. KenH says:

    The recent and serious mishaps of the U.S. Navy is probably the result of affirmative action and diversity run amok. AA might be ok for the post office or the transportation administration but it’s the last thing you want for the military. Chinese and Russian naval vessels don’t seem to be plagued by these troubles owing to the maleness and racial homogeneity of its crews.

    Their militaries’ are merit based while ours are becoming race and gender spoils systems.

    If AA has taken root in the marine and army infantry then Hezbollah or the North Koreans don’t have too much to worry about in the event we go to war with either of them.

  30. El Dato says:
    @TheJester

    In truth, engagements are supposed to be over fast.

    If you have a few missiles coming at you from the horizon and you miss less than 100% of them with your Phalanx or whatever else you have (a functional Aster system? An non-experimental Laser gun?), it’s Game Over Man, whether you are in a thin-shelled floating server room or a thick-shelled floating server room.

    Shell, bomb, and kamikaze damage just ain’t gonna happen anymore.

    OUCH TIME

    • Replies: @NoseytheDuke
    , @TheJester
  31. From gender bender to fender bender, explained by incompetence, instead of cyber hacked by the Russkis.

  32. @El Dato

    Wasn’t the Sheffield one of those lightweight, mostly alloy ships that caught fire very easily? I think the UK abandoned the concept after the losses endured in the Falklands war.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  33. Robard says:

    The South African navy experienced a few such mishaps after the ANC takeover. They even managed to sink a brand new submarine a few years ago.

  34. AWONC says:

    The fact that all 4 collisions happened involved ships of one fleet (7th) is the more concerning feature not racial or gender make-up.

    • Replies: @animalogic
  35. anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous

    Living in a place with relatively little immigration and a high enlistment rate due to economic desperation and a naive version of patriotism, I hadn’t known that a non-citizen can hire on with Uncle Sam. (In fact, I was skeptical enough to just now confirm that fact with an internet search.) And I suspect that many other Americans, at least in these parts, are ignorant about this, too. Even if this policy is longstanding, it sounds like it has become more needful to the USG.

    Bright side: It says something when a citizenry’s support for an imperial “mission” is so lacking that the government has to take such a step.

    Dark side: Assuming it’s required, what does an oath to defend the Constitution even mean to the enlistees you’ve described?

    One more indication that Washington = Rome.

  36. KenH says:
    @Roy

    In the first link the Russian aircraft carrier didn’t run aground or collide with other sea going vessels due to incompetence. The aircraft carrier’s arresting gear was faulty and combined with the Russian Navy’s relative inexperience with carrier based launch and recovery of aircraft led to the loss of two planes.

    Russia spends vastly less on their military than the U.S. and I’m sure their technical problems could be rectified if they could afford to allocate more money to the Navy on upgraded equipment and training.

    In the second link a Russian vessel collided with another vessel in an area with high shipping traffic in heavy fog. Shit does tend to happen in bad weather conditions even with an experienced crew.

    The United States spends vastly more sums on its military than Russia, so I’d argue that the world’s most expensive navy should not be having the problems we’re reading about which appear to result from crew incompetence and errors according to reports and the U.S. Navy’s admissions to date.

  37. John,

    Lived it, have the T-shirt. Retired from the Navy 11 years ago. You put young men and women of breeding age on a vessel and you have fraternization and pregnancies. Duh. Walking by the mess (dining) decks on an aircraft carrier was sometimes like walking by a high school cafeteria with the guys checking out the chicks and vice versa. Pregnancies of course rose mysteriously just before deployment. I lost the same female twice to pregnancy, both times before a six month deployment and finally, remember you have the same male/female dynamic at watch stations in the middle of the night…

    I guess you can an add a much larger homosexual element to the issue since I retired as well. Who knows what’s going on in the fan rooms of some of those ships these days.

  38. @KenH

    What fever dreams do you have that entail American troops fighting Hezbollah? Keep our troops out of Lebanon and Hezbollah is not an issue.

    Only an idiot would invade North Korea. Sign your kids up for that, leave mine out of it.

    • Replies: @KenH
  39. @Anon

    I don’t disagree with your number (2), Anon, even though the main reason this stuff is going on is to keep the high-level brass in Political Correctness – it’s something to justify many jobs for the people that can’t really lead and shouldn’t be in the military (or really in this country for that matter.) More about this later, time permitting.

    I don’t agree with number (1) point, but particularly for the case of the Navy. Hell, these guys have been traveling all over the world for a century with the US being the most powerful and the US Dollar being worth a bunch anywhere. What I’m saying is they have their LBFM’s all over for better sex with a whole lot less trouble than that to be had with these Navy broads. Which would you pick, Anon, a hot Filipina for $50 /night (not my price structure, it is an estimate), no strings attached (maybe only the bikini strings, but they come off) or some butch lady-sailor who could get you in trouble for the rest of the voyage?

    It’s a no-brainer.

    • Replies: @Truth
    , @Alden
  40. anarchyst says:
    @Rich

    “White kids” are purposely kept out of the trades because “affirmative action” policies are still in force…
    THAT is why there is a shortage of qualified people…

    • Replies: @attilathehen
  41. TheJester says:
    @El Dato

    Missiles are just another way of delivering warheads that used to be called “shells”. Navy ships used to be armored to take shell fire and survive. Today, they are thin-skinned electronic “gaming” machines that cannot survive a “pin prick”.

    The Navy was shocked in the first Gulf War when an Iraqi Exocet missile (one hit) totally disabled the missile frigate, USS Stark. However, nothing changed with respect to thin-skinned naval ship design.

    What this means is that swarming Iranian speed boats probably do have the capability of disabling and/or destroying US Navy ships in the Persian Gulf in time of war. Missiles are cheap. Thin-skinned $1.5 billion electronic missile frigates are not.

    The Russians and Chinese are also following this strategy … cheap missiles to disable and/or destroy US Navy capital (including aircraft carriers) and support ships with hypersonic missiles that cannot be defended against.

    Physical damage aside, there is also a growing capability on the part of the Russians and Chinese to turn off a ship’s electronics via electronic warfare. In 2014, a Sukhoi Su-24 overflying the USS Donald Cook in the Black Sea was able to electronically disable the ship using the “Khibiny” electronic warfare suite.

    The point is that thin-skinned navy ships packed with electronics are no match for today’s offensive missiles or electronic warfare suites. As a cost comparison, it is ridiculous to procure fleets of billion dollar ships that can be disabled or destroyed by relatively low-cost missiles and electronic warfare suites.

  42. @Diversity Heretic

    I’ll ask an even more politically-incorrect question: To what extent is the United States Navy still our navy?

    I’ll ask an even more politically-incorrect question: To what extent is the United States still our country?

    The fact that young white men puts themselves in harm’s way to protect a government and elite that openly despises them, discriminates against them and tirelessly works to flood what used to be their country with other ethnic, racial and religious groups is mind boggling to me.

    • Replies: @Kyle McKenna
  43. Clyde says:
    @PiltdownMan

    And the last thing the US Navy would want to admit publicly is Chinese hacking. All four collisions took place near China, in their sphere of influence. Just saying I would not dismiss it as a possibility.

    Derb chalking it up to deterioration due to politically correct armed forces also a great possibility. I hear loads of women serve on our aircraft carriers. I also get the impression moat are black and Hispanic. These women are not going to be stalling and waiting until they are 30 to have babies.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    , @denk
  44. El Dato says:
    @TheJester

    it is ridiculous to procure fleets of billion dollar ships that can be disabled or destroyed by relatively low-cost missiles and electronic warfare suites.

    “Only two kinds of ships in the Navy: submarines and targets”

    • Replies: @Miro23
  45. yeah says:

    Alone on a ship for months with 15% women. If only I were younger! I’d promptly enrol.

  46. @Clyde

    Thing is, even if there was hacking, there should be someone physically on duty using the unhackable Human Eyeball. The fact that wasn’t there is bewildering.

    • Replies: @Clyde
  47. KenH says:
    @Chris Mallory

    I didn’t say I wanted war and don’t see how you could conclude that I did. But Trump is daring N. Korea to knock the chip off his shoulder and looking for reasons to marginalize Iran further, so I’d be surprised if we don’t find ourselves in a shooting war with one of them, most likely Iran since they’re atop Israel’s shit list.

  48. What a dyed in the wool piece of statist filth.

    What is “our military”
    I don’t have one the DC filth does.

    What is “serving”?
    the parasities will to murder when ordered.

  49. @TheJester

    The Navy was shocked in the first Gulf War when an Iraqi Exocet missile (one hit) totally disabled the missile frigate, USS Stark

    Depends on what you are calling the “first Gulf War”. The Stark was hit in 1987, during the Iran-Iraq War.

  50. @Bill Jones

    Agree with most of that, but have to say that I grew up around a fair number of kids who joined the military. They were just trying to find a way out, looking for a little adventure or getting some money for college.

    But that was a long time ago. As I said in my comment, today, a white kid is crazy to ever put his life on the line for these government and people. Remember, of the kids being born today in the US, less than 50% are whites. It’s not our country anymore and never will be again.

  51. Clyde says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    Could be ChiComs have been hacking lots of US Navy vessels and they got lucky with two……. Where the watches were neglected on a few levels.

  52. @anarchyst

    The RCC is now practicing “affirmative action sainthood.” Cuck pope Frannie has made it easier to become a saint. Over 95% of RCC saints are Caucasian or European. The blacks/Asians don’t like that. You never answered if you accept black/Asian priests-popes.

    • Replies: @Truth
  53. Truth says:
    @attilathehen

    Your’e not a Catholic, what do you care?

    • Replies: @attilathehen
  54. @Truth

    Are you a Catholic? Do you accept black/Asian priests-popes? If you answer yes to the questions, you are the problem. Cuck poop Frannie is behind the black/Asian/Muslim invasion of Europe. The US Conference of Bishops is behind the illegal invasion from Latin America. This is why I left the RCC and why I care what these evil degenerates do.

    All this commenting about illegals, IQ, welfare is meaningless unless the sources of the problems are dealt with. The main groups causing world problems are the RCC and Zioevangizers. The Jews are minor players, the excuse that is given for why nothing can be done.

    • Replies: @Truth
    , @Excal
  55. “Speaking as a credentialed navigator…”

    Perhaps you should command the latest aircraft carrier: USS Gerald R. Ford!

    • Replies: @Truth
  56. Truth says:
    @Pachyderm Pachyderma

    He’d have to trip on the gangplank to do it’s namesake justice.

  57. @anonymous

    Lighter side: Most minorities eschew the combat arms MOS’s. The closer you get to the tip of the spear in the U.S. military, the paler and maler the picture becomes. Special operations units and the pilot/aviator jobs are overwhelmingly white.

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/08/05/diversity-seals-green-berets/31122851/

    • Agree: anarchyst
    • Replies: @wayfarer
    , @Anonymous
  58. @Joe Franklin

    What were the races of the Commanding Officer, Executive Officer and the Command Master Chief of the USS Fitzgerald that was involved in an avoidable collision? You seem to have (conveniently) left that out of your comment.

    • Replies: @Joe Franklin
  59. @KenH

    What does affirmative action have to do with the Commanding Officer, Executive Officer and Command Master Chief of the USS Fitzgerald?

    • Replies: @Rich
  60. Truth says:
    @attilathehen

    Not a Catholic, it’s phony, satanic, pagan Christianity, don’t give a shit.

    • Replies: @attilathehen
    , @anonymous
  61. @Truth

    Then why answer for anarchyst? Are you Jewish or Asian?

    • Replies: @Truth
  62. Truth says:
    @attilathehen

    I’m an African-American Knee-Grow, and gosh-darnit, I’m proud of it!

    • Replies: @Sunbeam
  63. Rich says:
    @QuestionMan

    I’ll take a stab at explaining it to you. Because of affirmative action, competent folks are passed over in favor of less competent, or incompetent folks, because some of the incompetent folks ancestors may, or may not have, suffered under a various set of circumstances in the past. Believe it or not, there may even be incompetent White folks, but in a more merit based time, these incompetent Whites were kept to a minimum. Having promoted every minority above his skill level, you still have a certain percentage of incompetent Whites in the field, and because there are a limited number of positions, you now have more incompetents in charge. Picture a pool of 100 commander positions, you have a 10% to 20% incompetency level of Whites, in a merit based organization, they would take up 10% to 20% of command positions. Now we know that in all probability, every minority commander was promoted based not on his skill, bit his minority status, you add all those incompetents to the command structure, increasing it from 10%, to up to 50% of incompetent commanders depending on how many minorities were promoted unjustly.

  64. Sunbeam says:
    @Truth

    Wait you’ve been around forever on this site.

    Which one of you is the one that keeps telling people to go to some site about “verysmartbruthas?”

    Lessee:

    Talha – Muslim Guy

    Tiny Duck – He really doesn’t work at it. No game.

    There are a few more, but unless their post looks interesting I tend to skip over it. So there may be more … Anti-HBDer’s? hanging around here.

    Still not sure what you guys get out of hanging around here. But whatever. Personally I don’t hang around DailyKos.

    I wish you guys would be more useful. There’s a lot of things that could be discussed here more thoroughly that never are. Like:

    If you accept the premises of HBD then Eugenics would work. And apparently it can fix any kind of social problem you have, in a couple of generations. Yet no one here really wants to talk about it, let alone enact it (me included).

    Kind of related to Eugenics, I can think of absolutely no one less qualified to make a decision about whether a marriage or having a baby with another person is a good idea, than an 18 year old with raging hormones. Leave out the cousin marriage stuff, maybe a babushka is a good idea. Weren’t arranged marriages more the de facto norm in our society as well until the early 20th century actually? I could expand on this idea if anyone was interested.

    And lots more.

    • Replies: @Alden
  65. Truth says:

    It’s been about 10 years on this site, I’m not a preach to the choir type guy, I’d rather bring Christianity to the Pagan Barbarians (believe it or not it’s much less frustrating, the expectations are lower).

    Accept HBD to a point. Different biological groups of people have different skills. This is largely, however, insignificant.

    God makes people differently for a reason, I’m not smart enough to know what it is. Eugenics is what your slavemasters are going for anyway, that’s where all the gay and tranny stuff, the porn, the “Game”, feminism, and all that nonsense comes from. At some point they want us to just throw up our hands and leave reproduction to them. Seems like it has already worked with you.

  66. wayfarer says:

    As a USCG seaman who once experienced the brutal 18-hour work days underway on 30-day patrols conducting search-and-rescue or law enforcement operations, it’s almost impossible to articulate the intellectual stamina required of the officer-class as-well-as the physical/psychological stamina required of the enlisted-class.

    • Replies: @E. Rekshun
  67. Alden says:
    @Diversity Heretic

    Check out the still truly horrendous training program of the Legion. Why would anyone want to go through with that? American military get rotated around the world. The legion serves in the hell holes of the world.

    In the other hand, they have a lovely retirement chateau.

  68. Alden says:

    The collisions were caused by incompetent minority officers. More affirmative action in action!!!

  69. Alden says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    The point is that in a 6 month deployment at sea the only accessible women are in the ship. While the pretty Filipinas are a thousand miles away.

    Weren’t all our Phillippine navy bases closed decades ago?

    • Replies: @anonguy
  70. Alden says:
    @Sunbeam

    From the early 1600s arranged marriages and dowries have never been a part of American society. Europe yes, American society no.

  71. wayfarer says:
    @SteveRogers42

    “White Privilege,” Was a Non-Existent Fact During the Vietnam War.

    Of the 58,220 Americans Killed, 49,830 (86%) Were White.

    “Statistical Information About Casualties of the Vietnam War”

    https://www.archives.gov/research/military/vietnam-war/casualty-statistics.html

  72. Look at the bright side: if you’re worried about the white demographics, the solution is simply to let the girls serve a term in the navy.

  73. Tom Welsh says:
    @PiltdownMan

    The Goldfinger quote is amusing, and sometimes apt. But when you trip over your own shoelaces and fall in a ditch, “enemy action” is not the first thing to suspect.

    As Lucy asks in “Peanuts”, “Have you ruled out incompetence?”

  74. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @SteveRogers42

    Special operations units and the pilot/aviator jobs are overwhelmingly white.

    Probably IQ related. You want to put smarter people in charge of expensive equipment or when a high level of autonomy is needed. The navy seems to be a special case, judging from this ongoing clusterfuck.

  75. Wally says:
    @Anon

    The military has become an extension of welfare for the unproductive.

    Why work when you can join the military?

    So goes the country, so goes the military.

    • Replies: @David
  76. Dear Derby: When ever possible, get on your hobby horse and ride, ride, ride. Any poor and weak excuse will do. (irony intended) One cannot help feeling sympathy for those poor black instructors and mates seduced by those salacious, immoral white women! (Now wind up the indignation an make lots of ad hominem comments. Hint: I am not black or female)

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  77. @QuestionMan

    My comments are regarding broadcast media bias.

    The biased broadcast media refuses to publish the names of the diversity commanders of the wrecked USS John McCain, but in sharp contrast publishes the names of white commanders of the wrecked USS Fitzgerald.

    Here’s an example:

    http://abcnews.go.com/International/navy-relieve-uss-fitzgerald-leadership-mistakes-led-deadly/story?id=49283582

    The Navy announced Thursday that the commander of the Navy’s 7th Fleet had relieved Cmdr. Bryce Benson, Cmdr. Sean Babbitt, and Master Chief Petty Officer Brice Baldwin for loss of trust and confidence in their ability to lead in those positions.

    I can’t find any mention on ABC of exactly who was in command of the wrecked USS John McCain.

    Is it because ABC is biased and pro-diversity, or because you can’t understand simple facts?

  78. @simplyamazed

    What makes you suggest JD has only one hobby horse?

  79. prusmc says:
    @TheJester

    Hey there!! Don’t forget that the F-35 has parts made by subcontractors in 47 of the 57 states.

    • Replies: @dkshaw
  80. @AWONC

    Thankyou. The 7 th fleet is the issue. With the so-called “pivot to Asia” this whole fleet has been suffering major extensions of yours of duty. Training has suffered. Men, woman & machines are tired & stressed.
    However, John’s hobby horse arguments are far more engaging than mere prosaic reality.

    • Disagree: Dan Hayes
  81. Corvinus says:
    @RadicalCenter

    “Seems like any sensible parents in the USA these days must advise their children not to enlist, or to enlist only for the shortest period possible to enable him to get the training and then get out.”

    False characterization. You assume that a parent is sensible only if they act how you want them to act. That is other than the case. Moms and dads need not be bound by your freelancing designation. If their son or daughter wants to join the military, parents have the liberty to dispense advice. That is sensible.

    • Replies: @Hibernian
  82. David says:
    @Wally

    Of the 2.5 million US Service Members who served in Iraq or Afghanistan, 770,000 are deemed disabled. It’s a whole new parasitic class.

    It’d be interesting to know the ratios by race, but at least here in Vermont, whites aren’t shy about accepting unnecessary government handouts. There’s no stigma against being a useless man anymore.

    • Replies: @Avery
    , @Kyle McKenna
  83. Don Bacon says:
    @TheJester

    Alleged EMP (electromagnetic pulse) attacks on cruise ships have been a news item for years e.g. here.

    • Replies: @Avalanche
  84. Avery says:
    @David

    { There’s no stigma against being a useless man anymore.}

    You make a good point about the stigma, but I think there is more to it.

    If you are a smart useful man, working, producing, playing by the rules, while all around you – you see multitudes milking the system, and where you and others like you are the ones who provide the ‘milk’ in the form of endless taxes, then at some point you have to decide to continue working yourself to death feeding others who lounge around doing nothing, or scale back some. Or a lot.

  85. Rdm says:
    @PiltdownMan

    1. Mr. Norman loitered around the smallville, fell in love with a motel mistress, spent the night, and 9 months later, a baby was born.

    2. Mr. Manor spent the night in Las Vegas with a hooker without condom, 9 months later, a baby was born.

    3. Mr. PiltdownMan under influence, happened to rape an unconscious women behind a dumpster. 9 months later, a baby was born.

    Since 3 happenstance involved “birth” after 9 months, alien enemy must be toying with hacking Mr. Norman, Mr. Manor, and Mr. PiltdownMan’s testes.

  86. I now add “pregnant sailor” to my list of oxymoron’s.

  87. Anon • Disclaimer says:

    My employer just hired a recently retired navy woman as a sr. administrative assistant. This black female entered the navy the day after she graduated high school at age 18. Four kids and two sailor-husbands later she retired at 38 y/o having never been on a ship. She spent two of her twenty years of service on paid maternity leave. She and her four kids are now enjoying her lifetime military pension and Tri-Care health insurance.

  88. Miro23 says:
    @El Dato

    It is ridiculous to procure fleets of billion dollar ships that can be disabled or destroyed by relatively low-cost missiles and electronic warfare suites.

    “Only two kinds of ships in the Navy: submarines and targets”

    Maybe advanced sensors and marine robotics are also be turning submarines into targets? Are nuclear submarines really so invisible?

    Every passing year the navy seems to become more of an anachronism. It’s so high risk that maybe it can’t even move troops and equipment around.

    • Replies: @Chris Mallory
  89. speaking of sailors and lady bracknell reminds me I used to live next door to Quenton Crisp, my actor parents even lent him some antique furniture for the production where he played lady Bracknell. It seems diversity might be the cause of these accidents Im told the blacks are far worse than useless and the non cis and women are also wreaking havok. I suppose this is what happens when the elite allow the lower classes to conquer them instead of conquering themselves through conquering their neighbors. now our lower classes are conquering neighboring elites

  90. anonguy says:
    @Alden

    The point is that in a 6 month deployment at sea the only accessible women are in the ship. While the pretty Filipinas are a thousand miles away.

    Weren’t all our Phillippine navy bases closed decades ago?

    Yes.

    Plus, it is my understanding that they now have rules now prohibiting service members from patronizing prostitutes.

  91. anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Truth

    …, it’s phony, satanic, pagan Christianity, …

    LOL!

    Do you believe the illogical hearsay that a certain man is “god”? Do you believe in white exceptionalism, which has caused untold suffering around the world? Have you heard of a pagan polytheist faith called Hinduism, their worship of humans, and their version of the trinity?

    Is it clear now that the faith of all your kind too is, Phoney, Satanic, and Pagan? ;)

    • Replies: @Truth
  92. @Miro23

    Are nuclear submarines really so invisible?

    Running off battery, a diesel sub is quieter. But the diesel has to occasionally surface to snorkel and it needs to charge the batteries, usually a 36-48 hour submerged time.

    The nuke sub cannot ever shut down it’s cooling system. The nuke has the advantage in that it can stay submerged for weeks to months on end.

    In a closed, shallow area of operations like the Persian Gulf, a diesel sub could cause some major problems. In open ocean, the advantage would go to the nuke.

    • Replies: @Miro23
  93. peterAUS says:

    While gender issue and affirmative action ARE problem, in these US Navy mishaps the issue was/is something else.
    It’s very easy to find competent and realistic analysis of the issue.
    Hint: communications (Navy/merchant), chain of communication, command and control on Navy ships and INTEGRATION (or lack of it) of displays.
    For the minority here capable of research and critical thought take a look at this:

    https://blog.usni.org/posts/2017/06/21/three-changes-the-navy-can-make-to-improve-safe-navigation

    It’s actually a little sad to see how “alt-right” makes the same mistake as the rest.

    Using wrong examples to push for own agenda(s).

  94. I was on the JFK, from 1971-4 as a very junior intelligence officer. We made it work because we wanted to make it work. In that day, if you made a case that was what happened.

    Now the concern it not what works but what can be defended to third parties who were no on scene.

    As Niall Ferguson put it: “It is not the rule of law but the rule of lawyers.”

  95. Miro23 says:
    @Chris Mallory

    Are nuclear submarines really so invisible?

    Technically I don’t know if they are or they aren’t , but the trend in digitalization, miniaturization, sensors and robotics points towards increased visibility, not just on land and air, but also in the sea.

    Maybe a large object in the deep ocean is currently invisible but I wouldn’t expect this situation to last, and if it’s already visible, the people who know it aren’t going to say.

    Either way, effective militaries seem to be trending towards intelligence, cheap drones and missiles. Good for destroying countries but not for occupying them.

  96. @Diversity Heretic

    I’ll ask an even more politically-incorrect question: To what extent is the United States Navy still our navy?

    I’ll ask an even more politically-incorrect question: To what extent is the United States government ours?

    A: It depends on the meaning of the word, “ours.”

    I think the federal government always was a tool of the plutarchs, and it would come as no surprise that the military is too.

    • Replies: @Kyle McKenna
  97. Avalanche says:
    @Don Bacon

    Only problem with the idea of an EMP taking down these several Navy ships is: NO passenger or crew reported their phones (radios, laptops, tablets) were ‘fried.’ And if there had been a EMP, none of those electronic devices would have survived either. And the ships couldn’t have been ‘rebooted’; doesn’t an EMP actually fry (melt!) the circuits? It doesn’t just shut them off. The ships would be dead until new computers and chips were installed (even the galley cookers would need new chips!).

    Interesting idea, but more likely piss-poor maintenance, or stupid/badly trained crew or … I just don’t know.

    I am concerned that the Navy ships in recent trouble have all been Aegis class. The problem is: even IF a weapon could completely shut down every single electronic device and computer onboard those ships — how could the watch not have seen an oncoming container ship? It could be that if the Aegis-ship were ‘shut down,’ the bridge crew could not sound GQ or signal the Crystal. (I would not be surprised, seeing the track of the MV Crystal to see the Fitz was intentionally run into. Don’t know about the others.)

    But — there are whistles, bells, gongs; hell, the bridge could send a runner down to the berthing areas to rouse the sleeping crew…

    But, interesting and deeply concerning.

  98. The Scalpel says: • Website
    @Diversity Heretic

    “The fact that we have a Department of “Defense” and a separate Department of Homeland Security really ought to be a clue to the genuine mission of the U.S. military: maintenance of the AngloZionist Empire”

    Excellent observation!

  99. CCZ says:

    The same USNI web blog cited by PeterAUS [at #97] has a number of opinions regarding ship manning, with one specifically referencing the McCain and stating “We need a serious, blunt, and open ended discussion about what we are doing about manning our ships properly…”

    40% of the maintenance performed by ship’s company was actually depot level work. Is the ship manned to not only perform required ship-level maintenance, but 66% more maintenance that should be performed at a depot-level facility?

    Why were these depot-level repairs not done at the appropriate facility? Is this normal for 7th Fleet? If so, why? If not, why was the MCCAIN doing this?

    [and especially!!]

    What unit-level training, PMS, watch, or rest requirements were the crewmembers not able to do because they were doing this depot-level maintenance?

    https://blog.usni.org/posts/2017/08/30/are-we-patting-ourselves-on-the-back-with-a-dagger

  100. Hibernian says:
    @Corvinus

    We’re rapidly becoming Venezuela Lite. RadicalCenter knows what he’s talking about.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
  101. Lots of palaver about radars, sensors, bridge sensor displays and display integration. All that overlooks the human bridge and aft lookouts who, despite their powerful binoculars and good old Mark I Eyeballs (and perhaps also night-vision optics), somehow failed to see the huge vessels with which the Fitzgerald and the John S. McCain collided. Does the navy no longer post bridge or aft lookouts?

  102. Truth says:
    @anonymous

    Is it clear now that the faith of all your kind too is, Phoney, Satanic, and Pagan? ;)

    After reading the three sentences you have written?

    Crystal.

    I don’t know why I had never heard these things before.

  103. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @NoseytheDuke

    Ironically Sheffield is synonymous with good quality steel!

  104. Just as aircraft rendered battleships obsolete, it may well be that more advanced aircraft coupled with missile technology renders manned surface ships in general obsolete. Back in 1967 the Israeli attack on the U.S.S. Liberty killed 34 crew, wounded 170 or so, and severely damaged the ship. This was a relatively small attack by a handful of Mirage fighter planes.

    For the price of one surface ship of questionable durability, hundreds of decent missiles can be made. A multifaceted attack against a ship involving aircraft and missiles is hard to defend against. In WW II, the Yamato was completely destroyed by aircraft whose accuracy on bombing runs was abysmal. Yet a handful of direct hits was enough.

    Building ships gives the arms industry something to do, and then floating them, manning them and sailing them all over the world keeps the U.S. Navy occupied, but that’s about it.

    • Agree: Miro23
    • Replies: @peterAUS
  105. denk says:
    @Clyde

    All four collisions took place near China, in their sphere of influence. Just saying I would not dismiss it as a possibility.

    Talking about possibility without specifying the probability is meaningless.

    I’ve used Ian fleming’s fundamental rule of probability many time in geopolitics analysis, works like a charm.

    Whats the chance of a Chicom hack on the USN ?

    1] No record of Chinese attacks on murkka so far, whether its cyber terrorism, color rev, jihadists terrorism, bioterrorism…
    Zero, None, nada, zilch.

    2] common sense says its the very antithesis to the Chinese doctrine
    of defensive war.

    3] No way China is gonna provoke a murkkan retaliation just when its on turbo charged with the OBOR proj.

    Hence,
    probability of a Chinese attack on the USN = 1/[10]10,

    By Fleming’s rule,
    prob[two in a row] = 1/[10]10 x 1/[10]10 = 1/[10]20
    ”””””””””””
    prob [four in a row] = 1/[10]10 x 1/[10]10 x 1/[10]10 x 1/[10]10
    = 1/[10]40 = practically ZERO ! [*]

    [*]
    [10]40 = 10 to the power of 40 = 1 followed by 40 zeros !

    Science is powerful.
    Not even forked tongue murkkans can argues with the rigor of Fleming’s rule.
    But abuse of science can leads to disastrous results.

    • Replies: @denk
  106. peterAUS says:

    Agree on “palaver”.
    Still, not so simple with lookouts.

    Can’t find now the articles, but the gist was/is:
    On merchant ship you have a couple of guys (sometimes just two, Hell, sometimes only ONE) manning the bridge. He does everything.
    He sees the thing, he walks into the wheelhouse, speaks on radio, turns the helm/rotates the knob/whatever, observes….and, yes, he can directly operate the engine (well, depends on a size of the vessel,true).
    But, on, say, 5000 tons vessel you can have ONE guy awake in the night doing all the work.
    True, in this case (high tonnage), there were most likely a couple of guys (TWO) on the bridge ( a mate and a helmsman) and an engineer on the watch in the engine.

    On Navy ships several persons are involved..
    Lookouts, radar/sensor operators, communications people, decision maker.
    Observe->pass the information to the next->THEN you have a guy who actually makes the decision->he passes the order down->the guy executes the order, reports back…here we go again…..up..down…in three/four directions.
    If one person makes a mistake, correcting that mistake can take some time (or even compound the mistake).
    That’s the crux.

    And, yes, now we are into area of training, long deployments (exhaustion), manning issues etc.

    The problem is obvious, just the causes aren’t as simple as in the article we are commenting on.
    IMHO, that’s the part of the picture, and a very small part of it.

    I mean, it’s funny, how much “landlubber” vibe one can see on Internet about the issue, including this site.
    But that’s Internet; everyone has an opinion.

    I just know, “sea people” following the……ahm….”debates”….are just cracking up.

  107. Cocoa says: • Website

    About 80% of the females on Aircraft carriers get impregnated by their partners before going on tour but when the time stamps are contemplated most of that 80% happened in the boat. Lots of hiding places on one of those things. Many of the females can do the job but there are some that they just should ‘nt do mainly Infantry. They get blown up just like the guys in the Middle East too. Not pretty when its a Girl. Gunships are OK!

  108. peterAUS says:
    @aspendougy

    O………….K…………..

    Had enough of this BS.

    Yes, yes, we know that surface ships are obsolete, blah, blah…because only The Empire has them.
    The other two points of….khm…multipolar world don’t have them in comparable numbers, type and quality.
    I get that, but for f*&k sake…….

    I’ve seen people spending not a day in military, let alone in combat spewing geopolitical to tactical opinions.
    Here, I am positive, most of comments about Navy, naval warfare and similar stuff never spent a day in Navy, let alone seriously worked within/with it.

    US Navy ships do not operate alone.
    They operate in carefully organized groups of assets (from satellites, through surface ships to nuclear submarines). Carefully……………..organized…………….groups……….

    Those groups are carefully and skillfully deployed.
    Carefully…and……..skillfully……………..

    Nobody on this planet can challenge the power of US Navy.
    That’s why The Empire rules the world.
    Mahan………..
    Oil….petrodolars………

    That’s why China is trying something.
    That’s why Russia isn’t going to give at least a couple of ports in Syria.

    Now to examples.
    I’ll leave Liberty out of it because …..it’s obvious why.

    For the price of one surface ship of questionable durability, hundreds of decent missiles can be made. A multifaceted attack against a ship involving aircraft and missiles is hard to defend against.

    Books and PhD dissertations have been made about this so…….
    Just one thing: something will need to organize and coordinate that attack against a TASK FORCE (not a ship). That something can be destroyed, jammed, deceived. Launching platforms can be destroyed/damaged. Missiles in flight can be jammed, deceived, destroyed.
    It’s high tech, complex, warfare.

    In WW II, the Yamato was completely destroyed by aircraft whose accuracy on bombing runs was abysmal. Yet a handful of direct hits was enough.

    Wrong example.
    WWII actually created Task Groups around strike aircraft carriers.
    They meant death of a battleship/battlecruiser.

    Introduction of missiles changed that, up to a point.
    They are a problem, but, not that great as people would like to think.

    And this:

    Building ships gives the arms industry something to do, and then floating them, manning them and sailing them all over the world keeps the U.S. Navy occupied, but that’s about it.

    is so wrong it boggles the mind.

    US rules the world because US Navy controls the world sea lines.
    Who control the sea lines controls the world trade.
    Etc.

    My God.

  109. Corvinus says:
    @Hibernian

    “We’re rapidly becoming Venezuela Lite. RadicalCenter knows what he’s talking about.”

    America is no where near typical Third World status. RC is hyperventilating.

  110. @peterAUS

    Thanks.
    And, yup.

    The U.S. shouldn’t give up its thalassocracy, not for all the petro in Arabia.
    Bet ya I know who gets that: the comics who comment on Saker who mock and spurn the US for being one.
    Let them have their Asian landmass.

    Two things though: if we weren’t shoulder-deep in foreign (economic) affairs with only the most abstract relationship to US interests, I’d guess we’d probably adjust the balance of dollars spent from surface combatants to a few more subs. Subs, all you had to say notwithstanding, are good.

    The other, and gets to the OP of this whole matter: there’s another problem going on. I’m not sure Derb nails it, just don’t know, but, I’d throw $0.02 that he’s on to something. I visited the Air Force Academy last summer. It was odd. When I went there as a teen it came across as so hard-science on the academics, and badass on the physical/martial. Last summer: looked like 4 years of summer camp.

    Someone should do a YouTube video that contrasts the tourist videos people where given in the 80s / 90s, to those we are shown today.

    • Replies: @peterAUS
    , @SteveRogers42
  111. 1rw says:
    @peterAUS

    Well Mahan was right in his day. However, technology advances and changes things. With China, India, Russia, and Europe all capable of trading with each other via railways, the control of sea lanes can be rendered moot. I believe China is doing exactly this with the new Silk Road project.

  112. annamaria says:
    @Alec Leamas (hard at work)

    “… U.S. retreat from this mission would invite the Chinese to expand into that vacuum in the Pacific.”
    Since when the seashores of China are of the US concern? Same with Ukraine: Why the US has been supporting the neo-Nazi groups half a world away? — to promote the “democracy on the march?” Are not the 2 million dead civilians in the Middle East (2.000.000) many of them children, enough already for the ZUSA efforts at “betterment” of the Middle East? http://www.middleeasteye.net/columns/unworthy-victims-western-wars-have-killed-four-million-muslims-1990-39149394
    Here are the pictures of Bush babies – the victims of the US bombing, with depleted uranium, of Fallujah: https://www.davidicke.com/article/392328/fallujah-12-years-americans-last-people-consider-generations-crippled-depleted-uranium
    China has been building and constructing; the ZUSA has been bombing and destroying. By the way, the sooner the Koreas are free from the US meddling the better for the planet. The world does not need more Cheneys and Wolfowitzes in power.

  113. @anonymous

    Non-citizens not only can join the U.S. military if they keep their foreign residency as their permanent residency they receive all their pay tax free! All those “poor” Filipinos the Navy was enlisting in Subic Bay were all getting their entire paycheck with NO taxes taken out even social security was not withdrawn from their check.

  114. @1rw

    Control of the seaways won’t be moot anytime soon.
    On the other hand – it’s the right move to let them sink their resources there so the US remains all the less challenged at sea. It’s a better investment for them anyway.
    If you are expecting glorious economic activity with a broad spread of fruits from the enterprise, on the basis of such trans-Asian cooperation, well – there will be prosperity.
    The right move for them – is to try to get the US to compete in it – because the US can’t compete there, and by trying stands only to assume the liabilities while the local Big Players, and local Big Players only, collect the asset value to themselves.
    Keep the seas. Let them have their Asian landmass and everything that goes with it.

  115. peterAUS says:
    @SimplePseudonymicHandle

    Agree.

    Re subs, for example, the future “boat” would be something as submersible aircraft carrier.
    Science fiction at the moment, of course.

    Re personnel/training, yes, that too.
    I’d add an element I haven’t often found debated, well, except on, say, “specialized” forums/boards.
    Aggression.

    When I was “in”, aggression, or, say, controlled short temper/fuse was a prized characteristic.
    For, say, “command” types, that was the most important trait …in “my time”.
    Don’t want to get into a lots of details (besides, “civilians” here wouldn’t get it and “pros” get it without explanation), but, suffice to say, even “officer material” can be divided between “analysts” and “commanders”. The main difference is controlled aggression, which translates into QUICK decision making.
    QUICK.
    And imposing own’s will on subordinates, quickly.

    Current culture in developed countries, and forced on militarizes, is of “no aggression”.
    Management types, not commanders.

    Speaking from personal experience.
    My personal traits which several times saved my life, and lives of my men, were/are hindrance in civilian life, paid employment in particular.
    I often like to say that 99 % percent of management I’ve worked in corporate world would’ve been dead in two hours tops in combat should they command a tactical unit. A lot shot by own men.

    I am positive that…say….”nice guy”…who was supposed to quickly make decision and make the team execute it, failed.
    True, he is partially to blame.
    The system is now also “nice”.
    One can not be hard and ruthless in making subordinates execute one’s order.
    Management………not command and control
    Perfect for corporate world and post modern sensitivities.
    For military…..well…..we can see it.

    And good luck changing that.

    Anyway….just my two cents.

  116. peterAUS says:
    @1rw

    Just for the record, disagree.
    The subject has been debated ad nauseam over the Internet so no need to regurgitate that here.

    BTW, unless leaderships of China, UK and, of course US are idiots, check the latest developments in naval shipbuilding.
    Including aircraft carriers.
    And both HMSs will, of course, work closely with US Navy.

  117. Brewer says:

    Sailed up and down the Straits of Melaka several times delivering yachts 40 – 50 ft.
    In contemplation, it looks incredibly hazardous, had me scared shitless before the first passage. In reality it is much easier than it appears. The rules of the road in those parts are well known, navigation not much more difficult than driving a busy city street. Large vessels keep a constant speed and clearly defined lane, the worst hazard being small, local fishing craft that do not show up on GPS based programs. The last occasion I single-handed a 42 ft Warwick from Klang to Singapore and back.
    I simply cannot see how the McCain collision occurred in the absence of serious incompetence or arrogance.

    • Replies: @peterAUS
    , @annamaria
  118. peterAUS says:
    @Brewer

    The last occasion I single-handed a 42 ft Warwick from Klang to Singapore and back.
    I simply cannot see how the McCain collision occurred in the absence of serious incompetence or arrogance.

    Well, you being a seaman, here is my 2 cents.
    As you know, this type of event is rarely clear cut and simple.

    Firstly, yes, there is an element of incompetence, of course and there is, when US Navy is concerned an element of arrogance.
    But, you mentioned that “single-handed”. Now, imagine you were in charge of, say, a comms guy, two lookouts, radar guy and a helmsman. Just them (and I am sure there were more….).
    Also, you, apparently, done what you say, I’d assume you are a type used to making quick decisions. And, also an experienced seaman (you know, wind, tides, waves, engine, hull, the works). Rules of the road. And, yes, when you sail, YOU prepare for it, from studying the route and mentally going through contingencies. BTW, merchant seamen are most of the time better seamen then navy types. And especially single sailboat skippers.

    So, in your case it’s simple; you observe, personally, make a quick decision and then you execute that decision knowing well how it got executed.

    Now, imagine/visualize a bridge of a modern destroyer.
    And the officer in charge having, realistically, most likely not even third of your experience in seafaring.
    And, most likely, he/she is not a seafarer type in the first place. Just a management material ticking his/her slots …career type.
    Add the crew (NCOs and especially seamen).
    Their seamanship is NOT that good.

    Add to that other things I mentioned in previous posts and, well, I guess that’s it.
    BTW, easy to find some well written material on the Web re all that.
    Like:

    http://gcaptain.com/uss-fitzgerald-fault/

    Take a look. Good article IMHO.

    • Replies: @Brewer
  119. 1rw says:

    Really, it’s Asia, Europe, and Africa. They can all be tied together by land based networks. Furthermore, a land power can deny sea access within 1000km of the shore with missiles and land based aircraft. So China can, with a string of Islands loaded to the gills with antiship missiles and aircraft control the busiest shipping lanes in the world. Likewise, Russia, by securing Crimea, has all the Black Sea under control. Once it makes inroads in Syria, Egypt, and Lybia will have the eastern Mediterranean under control.

  120. annamaria says:
    @Brewer

    The Saker has some strong (and hilarious) words on the US state of affairs, including the military: http://thesaker.is/make-no-mistake-the-latest-us-thuggery-is-a-sign-of-weakness-not-strength/
    “The latest US thuggery against Russian diplomats is as stupid as it is senseless. … US diplomats of the era of James Baker must be absolutely mortified to see the kind of idiocy their successors are now engaging in.” https://www.rt.com/news/401866-russia-diplomatic-properties-occupation/
    “… here is how they [Russians] would think about it [the illegal searches of the Russian premises]“: “We beat them in Syria, we are going to beat them in Ukraine, they lost Afghanistan, they lost Iraq, their Navy apparently does not know how to use a radar, their soldiers are terrified to fight somebody capable of resistance, they failed to impress not only China but even the North Koreans who are openly laughing at them. … the Americans are losing on all fronts and the very best they can do is try to feel good about illegally harassing our diplomatic personnel! Pathetic…”
    And of course, birds of a feather… “Far-right Britain First fosters ties with Zionist movement:” https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/asa-winstanley/far-right-britain-first-fosters-ties-zionist-movement

  121. denk says:
    @denk

    OTOH,

    In the past year or so China was hit by many bizarre ‘happenings’
    An avalanche of industrial/godown explosions, escalators mishaps, lift breakdowns, ocurred within a period of weeks/months.

    Blame the Chinese poor industrial safety standard and workmanship, I heard someone sniff !

    Two points.

    If the ‘accidents’ were distributed evenly over time it might reflect normal wear and tear or incompetence, but when it’s raining dogs and cats outta the blue
    it might suggest , a tell tale sign of…… sabotages !

    Especially when nothing of the sort happened in India/Indonesia for example,
    two countries whose industrial safety enforcement and technical competence are at least several rungs below China.

    Who might wanna defame/destabilise China ?

    Well,
    When you suspect arsons what come to mind first, ?
    the arsonist who was caught red handed many times before !

    The same one who has been stalking/undermining/wrecking Chinese investments in Afpak, SEA, Africa thru destabilisation, terrorism, regime change.
    The same one responsible for the mayhem./bloodshed in Tibet, Xinjiang and….TAM.
    The same one who’s behind the recent color rev in HK….
    The same agent provocateur at the SCS, ECS, Korean peninsula, Indo/Sino border.
    Even a dumbed down yank should know who Im talking by now ?

    Hence cirscumtantial evidences suggest
    prob [sabotage ] = 0.8 at least,
    => prob [accident] = 0.2

    Fleming’s rule applies,
    prob [dozen 'accidents' in a row] = [0.2]12

    Conclusion
    Extremely plausible that its’ sabotage by the UsualSuspects.

    Talk is cheap,
    Math always rocks !

  122. @SimplePseudonymicHandle

    Absolutely correct about USAFA. The former (female) Superintendent consciously “civilianized” things so that cadets would not feel isolated from the surrounding society. And of course, not coincidentally, this makes it easier for more and more females to get through the program there. The goal is to achieve a 50/50 gender balance in enrollment by 2020.

    I wonder what they’re doing at the Chinese Air Force Academy…

  123. Brewer says:
    @peterAUS

    Yes, I understand your point. Very well in fact.
    Mine is here:
    ” Large vessels keep a constant speed and clearly defined lane”
    The Marine Traffic report says the position was East of Singapore. The point at which you turn into Singapore is due South. She must still have been in the lane.
    The lanes are clearly defined. North-bound traffic keeps to the Western (Indonesian) reach, Southbound the Eastern or Malaysian side. McCain was South bound. If she kept her heading, the only way she could get rammed amidships on the starboard side is by a Northbound vessel (ALNIC MC) suddenly crossing the channel (possibly having overshot the entrance to Singapore). To my mind this is unlikely as the Alnic is a 50,000 tonne tanker incapable of a tight turn. She is probably in and out of Singapore every week or two.
    I suspect the McCain can turn on a dime and she made a sudden turn to starboard and got rammed by the following Alnic.
    There is talk of a steering failure which would fit with both of us. She has backup steering systems that the crew were not fast enough to activate according to one report.

    • Replies: @peterAUS
  124. peterAUS says:
    @Brewer

    Agree.

    Now, there is another, this time positive, result from the incident (and similar incidents).
    Something “civilians” don’t get most of the time.

    Survivability, both related to design and crewing (organization, procedures, training, reaction).
    The event will be analysed in minute detail and used to improve (if necessary) those elements.

    Now, related to aircraft and missiles and the future of surface ships a bit of reading to get some roots of the problem and initial solutions.
    IT related too (good old mainframes).
    ONLY for that 1 % here able to learn something, of course.

    http://ethw.org/First-Hand:No_Damned_Computer_is_Going_to_Tell_Me_What_to_DO_-_The_Story_of_the_Naval_Tactical_Data_System,_NTDS

  125. Excal says:
    @attilathehen

    I am a traditionalist Roman Catholic and I do most certainly accept black, Asian, or what have you priests and popes.

    I have my issues with P. Francis, whose views on immigration, and on many other issues, are baffling, to say the least. Fortunately, those views are not even close to being part of church doctrine; and fortunately, Francis will not be Pope forever.

    The USCCB, like other bishops conferences, is a harmful organisation and ought to be disbanded; their support for illegal immigration is wrong for many reasons. However, it ought to be obvious that they are not the sole cause of it.

    I am sorry that you left the Church, and I hope you can return one day.

  126. @peterAUS

    There’s a psychological profile that fits the bill you describe.

    Apart from that profile, there is a kind of “normal” person who can do this – it’s the kind of person who believes in numbers, to the point where he thinks of numbers as absolutely reliable, and perhaps even more real than material reality.
    That kind of person fits the bill without fitting the psychological profile because on account of his iron conviction in numbers, he really knows what it means – he doesn’t just believe what it means – he knows what it means, where it comes to Maimonides’ dictum that the only thing worse than a wrong decision is the terror of indecision. Sounds like a good dictum, but to act on it, you have to believe – for a “normal” person, that takes a hard conviction in numbers.

    In peacetime we promote people who believe that indecision is tolerable and wrong decisions aren’t tolerable. It may be that sometimes the conversion from peace to war is just the threshold of maximum indecision.

    Anyway – a psychologist would have to describe the psychological profile you are referring to. It is known – the profile. And the military knows it too. But, you’re right – for the present they are knowingly promoting managers.

  127. @denk

    Oh, come on, the Chinese are infamous for using substandard materials. As a people, they to partake deeply in Pope’s lament for the Pierian Spring: smart enough to be dangerous to themselves.

    Its getting better but you won’t be improve by denying reality.

  128. Pat Boyle says:
    @Anonym

    Are homosexuals good soldiers? It’s hard to get trustworthy data these days but maybe someone has done a real study. There isn’t much doubt that gay are more feminine and thus a bit less aggressive that normal men. That’s why all those farmers have castrated all those animals for millennia. So one suspects that gay men could be poor soldiers – or maybe it doesn’t matter. I don’t know. Does anyone?

  129. Pat Boyle says:
    @Diversity Heretic

    I read that the military won’t accept you now if your IQ is below 87. That certainly wasn’t the case when I was in the Army. We had guys so stupid it took all their brainpower to breathe.

    The average American black has an IQ of 85. So if all of this correct almost half of all African-Americans can’t get in the services. So the services should be getting more and more white. But I haven’t read any article about this trend and I would expect it to be noticed.

  130. peterAUS says:

    Well……….

    A bit of general misunderstanding about the “intelligence” thing in military on Internet, including this site.

    It is probably important for modern professional forces.

    But, for, say, “militia combatants” it is not. You know, 2nd Amendment, militias, the thing. On the contrary, actually.

    It’s very good to have a couple of really dumb guys in a platoon sized unit.
    Homework for curious minority here: why is that?
    No need to write it up here, just figure it out.

  131. @denk

    Denk, your calculations resemble math like The Myth Busters resemble engineering. Also, I agree with Mr. Cheih – in China, Quality is not near “Job 1″.

  132. @peterAUS

    Dear PeterAUS:

    I am well aware of these things, during WW 2, both the U.S. and Japan had powerful task forces, but Japan could so easily have won at Midway, had the timing of the raids been just a bit different.
    Even those carriers were incredibly vulnerable. Our WW 2 Midway task force could so easily have been wiped out. Even those who were commanding on our side, like Spruance admitted that. Later on, the sheer size of our task forces was so much greater.

    The scary thing is, the WW 2 ordinance was so much less powerful and less accurate compared what is available now. Even with a huge task force and AEGIS, etc., a mass attack of missiles and aircraft, especially at night? You may be right, that our task forces could successfully defend themselves, but we’ve never had to really face that. On of the things are enemies learned recently is that we seem to be more vulnerable between midnight a 4 a.m., when most people sleep.

    I am also concerned about the way you construct arguments. The control of trade routes by naval forces in the area says nothing about their vulnerability to mass attacks.

    You seem to acknowledge that individual ships are vulnerable, but that the task force is invincible, but you present no proof that this is the case.

    We rule the world much less than we did 30-40 years ago. We are still powerful, but the gap is closing.

    Look at how difficult it has been for us to defend ourselves against IED’s on land, they are nothing compared to missiles.

    My uncle was a gun crew officer on a battle cruiser during WW 2. He left his crew for a few minutes and went up to the bridge. When he got back, his entire gun crew was dead, a direct hit from a single Japanese shell. I think it was about 12-13 guys. Men on ships are really sitting ducks.

    Afghanistan, Iraq and Vietnam have all been strategic defeats for the U.S. We are hardly ruling the world any longer.

    • Replies: @peterAUS
    , @Avery
  133. denk says:

    Chieh and Newman,

    I know all about Chinese QC .

    As noted in previous post,
    Had it been the question of workmanship/QC alone, we’d have heard similar cases in India/Indonesi or…Botswana….
    But none that I know of.
    Escalator/lift aint exactly rocket science , thats why. !

    Then there’s the bizzare pattern,
    Dozens of ‘accidents’ spurt out in a matter of weeks .

    Together these might suggest ‘enemy action’.
    [Its all boils down to how high the probability]
    Any idea who might be that sworn enemy of China waiting to harm it at every turn ??

    Another example.
    Many people including me believed SARS/bird flu/swine flu ….were bio weapons./psyops against China.

    NO doubt you’d say cuz China’s sanitary condition sucks.

    But what about Jp/SK/Singapore, first world countries also hit by SARS/bird flu…?

    Whereas there aint no such shits in India/Bangladesh….etc ?

    May be The clue lies somewhere else.

    Whats common to Chinese/Jp/Koreans ?
    Ever heard of Ethno specific bio weapons ?

    murkkan SOO[ffense] William Cohen hinted at it way back in 1997 ,
    It turned up as top priority proj in that PNAC manifesto 2001.
    two years prior to the SARS outbreak 2003 !

    My calculation adheres to mathematical rigor,
    the only subjective element is while I assign prob[sabotage] >0.7

  134. Denk, I do understand your point about these things all happening around the same time, etc. I no longer would rule out anything the US Feral Government might do – it is one of the most beastly, sick, psychopathic governments the world has ever seen. As for the P.O.S.’s IN the Feral Government, I would say likewise.

    However, as someone who has taken a little bit of statistics, I can say that is not rigorous math you’re showing us, just speculation and guesswork.

    Escalator/lift aint exactly rocket science , that’s why. !

    There’s plenty of engineering involved in making escalators and especially elevators. Nowadays, there is a bunch of software involved, but something tells me, that unless the Chinese engineering philosophy is totally screwed, the software running the elevator is not going to be allowed to kill people, no matter who hacked in.

    It’s likely a lot more accidents and incidents with crappily-built Chinese industrial products have happened that have not gotten much press. All this stuff together may just be some press that was forced to come out due to angry Chinamen (“AND women!”, yes, OK, “and women”).

    About the swine flu, I’m no biologist, but if I were to try to make war on a country in this manner, I would release something that would kill millions, not something like the swine flu – those type of “bugs” have been coming and going for a while. I don’t think it was something “completely different” [/Monty Python]

    It’s true though that you probably can’t be overly paranoid in dealing with most of the sick governments in today’s world.

    • Replies: @denk
    , @denk
  135. peterAUS says:
    @aspendougy

    I am well aware of these things, during WW 2, both the U.S. and Japan had powerful task forces, but Japan could so easily have won at Midway, had the timing of the raids been just a bit different.

    Agree.

    Even those carriers were incredibly vulnerable. Our WW 2 Midway task force could so easily have been wiped out. Even those who were commanding on our side, like Spruance admitted that. Later on, the sheer size of our task forces was so much greater.

    Agree.

    The scary thing is, the WW 2 ordinance was so much less powerful and less accurate compared what is available now. Even with a huge task force and AEGIS, etc., a mass attack of missiles and aircraft, especially at night? You may be right, that our task forces could successfully defend themselves, but we’ve never had to really face that. On of the things are enemies learned recently is that we seem to be more vulnerable between midnight a 4 a.m., when most people sleep.

    Well……………………..
    Again, as always, there comes a point in “Internet debate” where a ceiling is hit and a proper argument can’t be made. I feel we are getting there.
    The problem (air power, especially massed missile attack on a surface task force) is what the best minds and technology work on as we speak.
    I’ll try some basics.

    a mass attack of missiles and aircraft, especially at night

    Who can do that? What country?
    I believe, as far as US (potential) enemy is concerned, only Russia and China. See the thing? I mean, if it comes to that, mass attack of missiles at night at US surface fleet assets will be the least of WORLD worries.
    Next, maybe India.
    Also, a nuclear power. See……?
    Then who….Iran?
    Now we are talking really.
    Make no mistake, that game has been played ad nauseam in exercises of all modern navies (disclaimer: for educational purposes only).
    Now, briefly, how it would work from US point of view:
    Think layers.
    LAYER….upon a LAYER…….upon a LAYER.
    Firstly, most of Iranian offensive air power would be incapacitated in initial, preparation phase. Say, end result: a couple of planes with air-to-sea missiles.
    Most that sails owned by Iranians would be destroyed from air in initial, too.. Remember how it worked with Iraq? Result: a couple of boats with air-to-sea missiles.
    All on land which could be used to launch those missiles would be targeted. Result: plenty of land-to-sea missiles.
    Surface assets wouldn’t attempt to reach effective range of either of those above before that result (minimizing air/sea capability first and foremost).
    Then, carriers would get close enough to keep participating in incapacitating land-based missile launchers by own air power.
    And it would probably stay that way………why getting closer at all?
    The all defense capability would be used to take care of those remaining planes and remaining boats. REMAINING.
    The suicidal attack by those remaining, even if perfectly executed would be SEVERAL missiles moving through layers of defence, again. From air patrols, through pickets, through close defence (including Phalanxes and ECMs on carriers themselves).
    I mean, we can play this scenario until we drop dead.
    We could dissect anything above into a book/position paper.
    My point is: the Task Force will not be put out of action; main assets (carriers) will not be hit; I concede that some pickets could be hit. That’s what war and “taking the Queen’s shilling” is all about.

    I am also concerned about the way you construct arguments. The control of trade routes by naval forces in the area says nothing about their vulnerability to mass attacks.

    Above.
    Iran only for this purpose.
    All the rest has “nuclear” option.

    You seem to acknowledge that individual ships are vulnerable, but that the task force is invincible, but you present no proof that this is the case.

    Above.
    Layers, phases….realistic enemy.

    We rule the world much less than we did 30-40 years ago. We are still powerful, but the gap is closing.
    Look at how difficult it has been for us to defend ourselves against IED’s on land, they are nothing compared to missiles.

    Apples and oranges.

    My uncle was a gun crew officer on a battle cruiser during WW 2. He left his crew for a few minutes and went up to the bridge. When he got back, his entire gun crew was dead, a direct hit from a single Japanese shell. I think it was about 12-13 guys. Men on ships are really sitting ducks.

    Depends on men and material. Men from top layer of decision making to electronics technician onboard. Material from design to quality of elementary parts to proper maintenance of commisioned assets.
    And, seamen get killed and maimed. That’s the game they signed for.

    Afghanistan, Iraq and Vietnam have all been strategic defeats for the U.S. We are hardly ruling the world any longer.

    I fail to see any connection between Afghanistan and Iraq and massed missile attack on a surface task force.
    But, I do have some examples of that.
    Vietnam: the technology was available at the time. No attacks.
    Grenada: skip.
    Lebanon: skip although technology was available at the time (land based mobile launchers).
    Libya: they even tried. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_in_the_Gulf_of_Sidra_(1986)
    Iraq: they had capability, haven’t even tried.
    Yugoslavia: they had capability, haven’t even tried.

    What do you think, in science-fiction scenario (type “alternative history”), what would China do if she had US naval capability?
    Scrap all that into………consumer goods?
    Doubt it.
    More likely crude in yuans.
    China friendly Taiwan and most of citizens of Australia speaking Chinese.
    Japan paying endless reparations.
    Unified Korea (“Kim type” leadership)
    Etc.

    • Replies: @Erebus
  136. Avery says:
    @aspendougy

    {…..but Japan could so easily have won at Midway,}

    Even if Japan had won the battle of Midway, they’d still lose the war against US.

    US had overwhelming human, industrial, and natural resources.
    Resources that Japan could never hope to match.
    If Japan had won Midway, the war in the Pacific might drag on a year or two more, but US would eventually prevail.

    Japan being an island and not having necessary natural resources to prosecute a long war (e.g. oil), could and would be blockaded and isolated. And US was too large and too far away from Japan for them to be able to strike US mainland and cause any significant damage.

    And don’t forget that US had atomic bombs in the summer of 1945. If the war had dragged on to 1946 or 1947, several atomic bombs would be used to wipe out several major Japanese cities.
    The results would be far, far worse than the destruction of just Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
    It was a good thing Japanese lost at Midway.

  137. denk says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    ‘Nowadays, there is a bunch of software involved’

    I am thinking of sabotage at the ground level, on the hardware installation.
    god knows how China is crawling with CIA/MI6/RAW/MOSAD these days.

    ‘if I were to try to make war on a country in this manner, I would release something that would kill millions, ‘

    May be SAR etc were more for creating chaos, destabilisation.
    Daily routines, works were disrupted, travels curtailed.
    Hospitals/clinics were overwhelmed , waiting time was like eternity,
    every visitor had to suffer thru a battery of test and interrogations.

    The came the h1n1, h1n2, h1n3…..flu series.
    The same drill all over again,
    Christ, what a nightmare !

    During its peak, Chinese hospitals, health ministry were practically taken over by haughty WHO officials barking orders, issuing instructions to hapless, trembling Chinese heath officials.

    Mind you, WHO had the mandate to declare a country ‘pandemic zone’,
    its as good as an economic blockade without the USN.
    As it is, Greater China suffered heavy economic loss racked by the series of SARS/flu attacks./psyops.

    http://www.whale.to/v/sars1.html

    ‘It’s true though that you probably can’t be overly paranoid in dealing with most of the sick governments in today’s world.’

    My Empire watch rule 1
    You cant be too cynical when it comes to uncle sham

    In conclusion,
    I’d say my ‘conspiracy theory’ trumps Clyde’s fantasy any time !

    p.s.

    for those who’r interested
    ‘In the days preceding the emergence of the first SARS cases, American raced to the Pacific Rim to impact escalating aggressions on the Korean peninsula. Communist China-a “most favored” trading partner with America, is politically allied with several American enemies, including those said to possess weapons of mass destruction, including Iraq. Coincidental? Not likely when viewing the larger political picture involving the Ango-American oligarchy’s RMA and instigated “conflicts short of war.”‘

    http://www.whale.to/a/sars2.htm

  138. denk says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    Er,
    There’s one more point I need to address…

    It’s likely a lot more accidents and incidents with crappily-built Chinese industrial products have happened that have not gotten much press. All this stuff together may just be some press that was forced to come out due to angry Chinamen (“AND women!”, yes, OK, “and women”)

    This is the age of instant information !
    Within minutes of some minor, mundane events in China, 3000 miles away, a video appeared on my mobile phone.
    For example, I might be looking at an escalator ‘accident’ in Guanzhou hours before its in the news !

    Did you look at the devastation at the Tianjin blast site ?
    christ, its like Apocalypse now !
    Someone even talked about a mini nuke !
    Then dozen of horrific explosions in various cities followed in quick succession within weeks.
    Thats positively abnormal.

    If something like that had been going on regularly before, no way it could be ‘covered up’ by the CCP, just no way !

    ———————————

  139. JGarbo says:
    @Olorin

    Hillary was asking, “Any takers? No? OK, I’ll try the next ship.”

  140. @Joe Franklin

    Thanks for your tireless and relevant research.

  141. @David

    What a shocking statistic. Is there any category of government employment that is not a welfare program now?

  142. @Citizen of a Silly Country

    Indeed. It’s amazing what you can accomplish with mass-media programming.

  143. Erebus says:
    @peterAUS

    Make no mistake, that game has been played ad nauseam in exercises of all modern navies (disclaimer: for educational purposes only). Now, briefly, how it would work from US point of view:

    I’m surprised you don’t mention the most famous example of “how it would work”. Namely the 2002 $250M Millenium Challenge, wherein the “Red Team” (nominally, Iran) failed to follow the script and knocked the arse off the Blue Team (nominally, the US).

    Two days into the 2 week exercise, the Blue Team lost:

    … one aircraft carrier, ten cruisers and five of six amphibious ships. An equivalent success in a real conflict would have resulted in the deaths of over 20,000 service personnel. Soon after the cruise missile offensive, another significant portion of Blue’s navy was “sunk” by an armada of small Red boats, which carried out both conventional and suicide attacks that capitalized on Blue’s inability to detect them as well as expected.

    At this point, the exercise was suspended, Blue’s ships were “re-floated”…

    … and the “Challenge” redefined so that the Blue Team was guaranteed an overwhelming victory. The Blue Commander, Marine Corps Lieutenant General Paul K. Van Riper, resigned his “Command” in disgust. Nevertheless, the USN has, I’m sure, taken some lessons from that. One of them is don’t threaten anyone who’s got a cunning, patriotic officer corps willing and able to shoot back asymmetrically.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennium_Challenge_2002

    • Replies: @Erebus
    , @peterAUS
  144. Erebus says:

    Unless I missed it (entirely possible), nobody seems to have mentioned that there’s a couple of elephants with diarrhoea in the room. Er, I mean, on the bridge. That is, almost every modern navigation software suite, available to any boating enthusiast, is replete with anti-collision information, and programmable alarms etc.

    AIS, (Automatic Identification System) is the nautical equivalent of airplane transponders and is required by all ocean going ships of >300 Gross Tons, and all passenger ships. It broadcasts a vessel’s unique identification, position, course, and speed that shows on any modern retail chartplotter with the AIS option.
    Modern chartplotters can be programmed to warn the operator if he’s getting close to anything broadcasting an AIS signal (or any hazard). If the USN hasn’t got an AIS equipped chartplotter, they could just monitor http://www.shipfinder.com or similar website and track everything around them in almost real time.
    I cannot believe that both the Fitzgerald and the McCain wouldn’t have an order of magnitude more sophisticated suite on board than what I can buy at the local chandler, or cobble together myself from Open Source software and simple hardware. Apps like ShipPlotter and Gnuais allow one to do it on a laptop without a chartplotter if the USN doesn’t have one (LOL!), and there are even mobile apps for Android and iOS.

    There should have been plenty of warnings that they were on a collision course with the transports, and as the courses converged there would have been alarms going off like claxons on the bridge, and probably throughout the ship.
    In case the transport had turned off its AIS (very, very unlikely in the McCain case), the USN ships’ navigation radars would have been feeding the course computers similar information. Certainly enough information to compute a collision course, which should have unleashed the same suite of warnings and alarms.

    So, WTF happened? However sloppy a ship these “Captains” were running, that this is even possible beggars belief, whether or not physical lookouts were deployed.
    Collision avoidance has been the most basic skill of seamanship since whenever boats were invented, and rules were codified in modern times by the British Admiralty Court in 1840 which formed the basis of the rules we have today. They define who has right of way (the stand-on vessel), and further require that ships maintain a “good look-out”, especially in harbours and channels, and take “all possible measures” to avoid collision regardless of right-of-way.
    The circumstances speak for themselves…
    In the case of the Fitzgerald, they collided with a stand-on vessel (that had right-of-way) in open waters. Completely inexcusable.
    In the case of the McCain, it is unclear whether they were the stand-on vessel, but were in Singapore waters, one of the heaviest traffic zones in the world, and apparently failed to keep “a good look-out”. They certainly failed to take “all possible measures” to avoid collision. Again, inexcusable.

    Unless the bridge turned all the warning and alarm functions off and went to sleep, there’s only one explanation I can think of. Their nav systems were falsely indicating “all clear”. IOW, the Russians (or the Chinese) did it. “Once you’ve eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth”.

  145. Erebus says:
    @Erebus

    Oops!
    The Blue Commander, Marine Corps…” should read “The Red Commander, Marine Corps…

  146. peterAUS says:
    @Erebus

    I’ve read all about that.
    Simplistic.

    Besides, that’s what those exercises are for.
    You keep playing different scenarios again and again. Sometimes you lose, sometimes you win.
    The point is to learn from mistakes.

    That’s exercise.

    In “real” Yugoslavs and Iraqis had a chance to try.
    You have probably noticed that the exercise was 2002 and the real happened in 2003.

    Personally, I am was not impressed by the exercise then and even less now.

    BTW, while following other thread found, on this very Website, a reasonable discussion about “Iran” scenario.
    Take a look around if/when you have time/inclination.

  147. Erebus says:

    Simplistic.

    $250M for a “simplistic” war game? Sounds like they overpaid.

    The point is to learn from mistakes.

    Well, I’d say the point is to see what works and what doesn’t, and Millenium Challenge showed that what the USM could bring to bear on Iran would result in catastrophe. That’s why the nuclear deal, and why Iran went on to defend Syria.

    You have probably noticed that the exercise was 2002 and the real happened in 2003.

    Hmm. I’d submit that the 1st real “real” happened in 2011 in Libya, where the world took a lesson as well. The 2nd was early 2014 in Ukraine/Crimea, and again in Sept 2015 in Syria. It continues in Syria, and is happening now in N. Korea. With overwhelming military advantage, and while its “interests” are being undermined, the US just sits in its ships and barracks, occasionally coming out to blow something up.

    Personally, I am was not impressed by the exercise then and even less now.

    Not sure what that means, but it apparently made an impression in the brain trusts that run the Pentagon. The US hasn’t tried a direct assault on anybody who’s in a position to deal them that kind of blow since. The N. Koreans goad and mock them, knowing they’ll do little but bluster.

  148. peterAUS says:

    Not sure what that means

    That means that, should push comes to show, US Navy won’t fear Iran much.

    The US hasn’t tried a direct assault on anybody who’s in a position to deal them that kind of blow since.

    So far. We’ll see. Really one way to find out, isn’t it?

    The N. Koreans goad and mock them, knowing they’ll do little but bluster.

    Good.
    Milosevic, Hussein and Gaddafi were goading and mocking too.

  149. Erebus says:

    Fair points.

    That means that, should push comes to show, US Navy won’t fear Iran much.

    It’s not fear, per se that’s at issue. Rather, it’s about moving the point at which “push comes to shove” further and further into “shove territory”. I’d say, Iran’s substantial and quite overt assistance to Syria (and Hezbollah) over the course of the Syrian war, in direct, open defiance of the M.E.’s and the entire West’s strategic goal for Syria (aka “Assad must go”) would have qualified as “shove” a decade ago. No? If so, that point has moved not only re: Iran, but also N. Korea. Firing ballistic missiles over the sovereign heads of the US’ core Pacific ally (and ~60k USM personnel) and then detonating 100kT+ warhead is provocative. What do they have to do to qualify to get to “shove” status? Sink a carrier? A frigate? A supply vessel? Or do they have to just come close?

    My point in all this is that asymmetrical capability, having risen amongst various adversaries, has given the US pause, and that serves to tip, however incrementally, the balance of (usable) military power away from the US in favour of the RoW.

    • Replies: @peterAUS
  150. peterAUS says:
    @Erebus

    My point in all this is that asymmetrical capability, having risen amongst various adversaries, has given the US pause, and that serves to tip, however incrementally, the balance of (usable) military power away from the US in favour of the RoW.

    Well…agree. Sort of.

    Who knows what’s and how is going to happen.
    I’ve given up trying to understand US foreign policy after Trump launch on Syria.

    Trying to keep some sanity by focusing on pure military matters, which, of course, isn’t easy.
    Clausewitz etc.
    Although I think he would be lost today. All great military philosophers in fact.

    But, again, if, for any reason imaginable, US (with allies) decides to “push” Iran, well, I guess for the US Navy it won’t be much of a challenge.
    Who hasn’t played with that scenario…?

    Iran close to developing a nuclear weapon-Israel does something-US has to back Israel up-Iran blocks Hormuz-West has to “unblock” Hormuz………..here is when we can play that game of “swarm of missiles and planes” against US Navy.

    Actually, while following some other thread comments, came accross a guy’s comment I agree with:
    Sort of….”the real challenge would be a mine clearing operation in Hormuz”.

    Hopefully never.
    Realistically in all this madness…….who knows.

  151. Erebus says:

    Realistically in all this madness…….who knows.

    But, but… but our job is to speculate wildly, isn’t it? :-)

    Anyway, one gets the unmistakeable sense that some sort of tipping point is approaching on several planes simultaneously, and who knows how any of the players will react when things go off horizontal. Dangerous times.

    • Replies: @peterAUS
  152. bluedog says:
    @SteveRogers42

    Hmm USS SONGBIRD it wasen’t by any chance named after McCain…

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