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Once upon a time in America the ruling dwarves, mostly psychologists, sociologists, academics, and suchlike riffraff, held that all people were equal in everything, that men and women were identical, as were all races, ethnic groups, and cultures. Criticizing any of this could, and did, lead to firing, ostracism, and having to suffer crowds of mental defectives waving placards.

Resistance arose, the resisters calling themselves Race Realists or adherents of the Human-Biodiversity movement, HBD. These were brave people who tried to deal in observation, measurement, and reality–at first. They noticed that groups who were supposed to be equal weren’t. Actually, most people had probably noticed the same things, these being obvious, but the Race Realists actually said so. A great wrath fell upon them.

Two things happened. First, the intellectual equivalent of gas-station louts merged online with Race Realists. The louts had no interest in human biodiversity except insofar as it could be used to establish the inferiority of groups they didn’t like. These included all non-whites. When various Asian peoples proved awkwardly to be smarter than whites, the louts said, well, OK, but they can’t innovate.

Overlapping the louts and Race Realists in a complex Venn diagrams were ideological, and therefore slightly pathological, conservatives with their characteristic tribal hostility toward anyone different and nearby.

Second, the respectable Race Realists, under constant criticism as racists, frauds, and pseudoscientists–which they were not–became as rigidly ideological as their opponents. Herd-think settled in. Surprisingly, scientists proved as susceptible to herd-think as everyone else, and equally unaware of it. The whole cluster could no longer examine its ideas or tolerate questions.

Their chief beliefs are that everything came about through Darwinian evolution, probably to include sunspots, that everything is genetic in origin (presumably including their politics, a thought they overlook), and that IQ tests provide an infallible measure of intelligence.

These views came to constitute as hermetic a bubble as anything the Catholic Church or Communist Party ever came up with. And so, like their enemies the mental defectives with the placards, they fell into simply shouting down doubters as a form of CDA (Cognitive Dissonance Avoidance).

They became wonderfully like their enemies. In 1925, in the famous Scopes Monkey Trial, fundamentalist Christians tried to prevent the mention of evolution in the public schools. Recently in in court in Philadelphia, the evolutionists successfully outlawed the mention of Christian doctrine in the public schools. The psychologies were identical. Curiously, both faiths were tripartite. The Christians had Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, and the opposition had Darwin, IQ, and Genetics.

Their thinking, well, wasn’t. If you argued to a physicist that the acceleration of gravity changed with the seasons, he would either ignore you or ask for evidence. He would not endeavor to have you fired or hounded in the literature. These things have happened to those doubting the sanctity of Darwin.

Permit me to give a few examples of Cognitive Dissonance Avoidance in the IQ racket. I will try to maintain the somber pretentiousness expected in such matters, but I apologize in advance in case I fall off the wagon.

Let us start here:

  • IQ 83. Meso-American Indians, more specifically purebred Mexican Indians, are said to have a mean IQ of 83. This is observationally plausible. Today they seem intellectually dormant.
  • IQ 84. Colombia, mean IQ 84, runs modern cities, airlines, telecommunications, and other trappings of modernity.
  • IQ 85. American blacks. They are thought in the hbd world to be unable to do things that Colombians do routinely, yet they have a higher IQ than Colombians..
  • IQ 86. Ireland was long said by IQists to have this intelligence, odd in a white European nation, but was later promoted to 100, with some authorities averaging the two to get 93.

It seems curious that such similar IQs would produce such disparate results.

Then we have this datum on the Meso-American Indians:

By around 300 BCE, these Indians had invented both writing and a positional-exponential number system complete with zero, probably the best in the world at the time. As linguists universally acknowledge, their writing was real writing, not proto-writing or funny scratches on bark. Writing has been invented perhaps three times in human history. Further, they did this with a quite small population.

Anybody but an IQist would think this remarkable and worthy of thought. Smart then, dumb now.Why and how did this happen? What mechanism can account for it? Is something wrong with the paradigm?

From the foregoing observations we conclude:

(1) A mean IQ of 83 is sufficient to invent writing and exponential-positional number systems.

This is not a theorem but an observation. They did it, so they must have been able to do it. The only ways to avoid this conclusion are either to accept that something is wrong with the numbers–an IQist would rather submit to bastinado–or to to posit powerful evolutionary pressures favoring stupidity following 1521, the last year when these two systems were widely used.

The latter expedient carries a whiff of desperation. Perhaps someone will explain this rush toward enstupidation. (Preferably without appealing to presumed evolutionary pressures not subject to measurement or even detection acting upon genes of presumed but unestablished existence to produce presumed results not correlatable with the selective pressures. This is science?)

Now, if a particular mean IQ is sufficient to do certain things, then a higher mean IQ must perforce be sufficient to do those same things. Thus we have:

(2) American blacks, mean IQ 85, are intelligent enough to invent writing and exponential-positional number systems.

The IQist position, that the Indians are stupid (as perhaps they are) leads to fascination conclusions. We have:

Either (a) inventing sophisticated number systems does not require mathematical talent, or (b) mathematical talent does not require much intelligence.

Which?

Since, as established above, American blacks are capable of epochal mathematical leaps forward, their failure to make such leaps in the United States must be due to something other than low intelligence. Among the possibilities are culture, discrimination, racism, white privilege, transphobia, fat shaming, institutional racism, Islamophobia, low expectations, poverty. and something about LGBT.

Thus we see that IQ theory confirms the claims of Social Justice Warriors, a surprising but scientifically derived result.

But at this point I must retract my suggestion that the genetically determined Meso-American IQ cannot have fallen sharply. Observation demonstrates the contrary. Here we have a side-by-side comparison of mean IQs of nations, the first measured in taken in 2002 and and the second in 2006. One sees rapid changes in IQ over these four years. (The cognoscenti of IQ will attribute sudden rises of BMFE, Burst Mode Flynn Effect, but this is a very technical matter.)

For example, Peru has fallen from 90 to 85, and Mexico has risen from 87 to 90. I find the case of Mexico particularly of note since I live there–here. With its genetically determined IQ rising at three points every four years, it follows that in the next century it may rise by 75 points unless something is done to halt this ominous trend.

We conclude:

A nation’s mean IQ can rise or fall by at least five points in four years.

ORDER IT NOW

This seems peculiar behavior for a genetically determined quantity. The most probable explanation is very rapid Punctuated Equilibrium, which we in psychometry refer to as an FGL (Frantic Genetic Lunge). Another explanation, which we will carefully avoid, is that IQ varies semi-independently of intelligence, and thus is an unreliable measure.

Perish forfend.

Next: There is said to be a positive correlation between a country’s mean IQ and its degree of economic prosperity. This is plausible and we will here accept it as true. Confirmatory examples abound: The Japanese are highly intelligent and highly prosperous; Equatorial Guineans are highly not intelligent and highly not prosperous. QED.

Thus:

Since IQ correlates positively with national prosperity, then, as prosperity rises, so must IQ.

Because genetic IQ cannot increase so rapidly in even the most lubricious of nations, we would almost have to suspect that prosperity raises IQ, not the other way around. Or else that IQ is only sometimes and unpredictably linked to intelligence. Both of these being unacceptable results, we will ignore them. CDA.

(Republished from Fred on Everything by permission of author or representative)
 
• Category: Science • Tags: Hbd, IQ, Race and Iq 
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  1. LauraMR says:

    Let us remember that the IQ distribution of a population spans over a large range. See any chart with a normal distribution.

    Let us remember that IQ distributions of various populations largely overlap. See any chart with a couple of IQ distributions.

    Let us then acquaint ourselves with the observation that there is more variance within a population than across populations. Again, see any chart with a couple of IQ distributions.

    And so, given any two populations A and B and their largely overlapping IQ distributions, it is factually so that just about half the population of A will have a higher IQ than just about half the population of B, and vice versa. Once again, see any chart with a couple of IQ distributions.

    Please note that as we are talking about “populations” in the tens/hundreds of millions (billions if the “populations” are genders), the disparity of a few IQ points on average do not amount for more than lose change. The fact remains. Given two populations A and B, just about half the population of A will have a higher IQ than just about half the population of B, and vice versa.

    • Replies: @RAMROD
    , @Anonymous
  2. “Since IQ correlates positively with national prosperity, then, as prosperity rises, so must IQ.”

    And there you see the logical fallacy, cum hoc ergo propter hoc.

    QEF.

    • Replies: @Frederick John
  3. FKA Max says: • Website

    Because genetic IQ cannot increase so rapidly in even the most lubricious of nations, we would almost have to suspect that prosperity raises IQ, not the other way around.

    Prosperity increases both IQ test scores through better and longer education and it increases genetic/physiological IQ through better nutrition which increases height, which in turn increases intelligence.

    More details here:

    Taller people have on average bigger/wider arteries, and thus on average better-blood-supplied brains, in my opinion
    [...]
    But you forgot to factor in Bergmann’s Rule in your analysis, which, in my opinion, would predict racial differences in IQ/intelligence caused by climate/temperature via bigger/wider arteries in taller/bigger human beings who live far away from the equator, which translates, as I stated above into “better-blood-supplied brains,” i.e., higher intelligence.
    [...]
    and again, [Nilotic peoples'] height is mostly due to their long limbs, so I am not sure their arteries would as big/wide as an equally tall, but bigger/heavier, Nordic person’s ones; which would explain their on average lower intelligence compared to Northern Europeans, despite their tallness [...] consistent with Bergmann’s and Allen’s rules

    http://www.unz.com/jthompson/boost-your-iq/#comment-2085690

    “Brain size has increased about 350% over human evolution, but we found that blood flow to the brain increased an amazing 600%,” project leader Roger Seymour, from the University of Adelaide, said in a statement. “We believe this is possibly related to the brain’s need to satisfy increasingly energetic connections between nerve cells that allowed the evolution of complex thinking and learning.

    http://www.unz.com/jthompson/boost-your-iq/#comment-2085737

    Human skulls, showing the location of two openings for the internal carotid arteries that supply the cerebrum of the brain almost entirely.

    How humans have changed in height in the last 100 years

    Source: http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/26/health/human-height-changes-century/index.html

    List of countries by GDP (PPP) per capita

    Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita

    Of course, there are always exceptions to this rule like the Gulf states with their vast oil wealth, etc., for example. The Ukraine which has high levels of corruption and is currently involved in a military conflict with Russia, which usually leads to “brain drain” emigration, etc.

    Or Ireland, which is currently a corporate tax heaven:

    Take it from Ireland: a tax haven UK would be a disaster

    Last July, the publication of Ireland’s annual economic growth figures sparked widespread bemusement. GDP had increased by a whopping 26 percent in 2015. [...] The major reason for the unusually high increase: the relocation of a couple of very large international companies to Ireland, ostensibly to lower their tax burden. [...] But it also exposes the fallacy of relying on GDP figures as the key measure of economic success (Ireland is now developing a new measure that excludes the effects of firms re-domiciling.
    [...]
    Ireland’s experience is illustrative here. It is one of Europe’s highest performing economies for GDP growth, but languishes below the EU average on household income measures.

    https://www.thersa.org/discover/publications-and-articles/rsa-blogs/2017/02/take-it-from-ireland-a-tax-haven-uk-would-be-a-disaster

    • Agree: LauraMR
    • Replies: @LauraMR
  4. IQ 83. Meso-American Indians, more specifically purebred Mexican Indians, are said to have a mean IQ of 83. This is observationally plausible. Today they seem intellectually dormant.
    IQ 84. Colombia, mean IQ 84, runs modern cities, airlines, telecommunications, and other trappings of modernity.
    IQ 85. American blacks. They are thought in the hbd world to be unable to do things that Colombians do routinely, yet they have a higher IQ than Colombians..
    IQ 86. Ireland was long said by IQists to have this intelligence, odd in a white European nation, but was later promoted to 100, with some authorities averaging the two to get 93.

    In the case of Mexico and Colombia’s modern economies, focusing on mean IQ misses the point. The fact is they have a good number of European or mostly European-blooded people. It’s like South Africa under white rule. Though the mean IQ was low since blacks were the solid majority, things got done and a modern economy was maintained because whites led it. Whites did the brain power while blacks supplied labor. It’s like this. Imagine a farm with 10 people and 50 cows. Suppose the IQ of humans is 100 while the IQ of cows is 20. The average is pretty low because cows are dumb, but if humans lead, they can direct the cows to plow the soil and do physical stuff.

    This goes for Israel too. Israeli average IQ isn’t high because Sephardic Jews are less intelligent than Ashkenazim, and also, Israel has a sizable Arab population. But at the top, there are lots of smart Ashkenazi Jews and they run much of everything and direct the less intelligent members of society to work productively.

    Now, I don’t believe Meso IQ is that low. It may be lower than white or East Asian, but the low showings probably owe to lack of schooling, diet, or lack of cultural respect for learning. Environmental factors and cultural stimulation will raise IQ points somewhat.
    So, if those kids could be fed and schooled better, they would likely to better. So, maybe 95 than 85.

    American black IQ may be higher than Meso IQ because so much more money is spent on black students in America. How much is spent on education of Meso in Colombia or Mexico? Not much. But tons of money is spent on the Negroes, and that surely has some impact, even though Negroes would rather jive than study. Also, Negroes eat well, so their brains do develop.

    Anyway, even if Meso and Negro IQ were the same — 85 –, the reason why Meso achieved more in civilization-building is because they lack the Bongo. Negroes got the Bongo gene that makes them jive, shuck, boogie, and chuck spears 24/7. So, they are less likely to cooperate. In some ways, this was good because Negroes were less likely to be slavish and take shi* from others. In contrast, Mesos were more likely to be servile like Japanese. After all, Mesos and East Asians are related. Servility may not be an attractive trait, but such people are easier to use and train.
    I mean if a US company wanted to hire workers, it’d do better with Mesos than with blacks even if both got 85 IQ. Mesos will say ‘Si senor’ and do real work whereas too many Negroes will be like, ‘man, what is dis shi* dey’s makin’ me do?”

    As for the Irish, they were probably drunk or bellyaching from consuming too many potatoes. That explains why they did poorly in the past. Also, the Irish were not taught to think but to fight and sing(songs like Danny Boy). So, they weren’t used to sitting down and taking exams. They didn’t have British manners and disciple. And being paranoid of the Anglos, they thought IQ tests were designed to collect information on the tater-munchers.

  5. LauraMR says:
    @FKA Max

    Indeed, the feedback of prosperity (particularly its effect on developmental nutrition) is very often overlooked by IQ “enthusiasts”.

    • Replies: @FKA Max
  6. Whitey says:

    Reed is a constant apologist for Mexicans because he married one and lives in Mexico. He thinks prosperity increases IQ. But IQ is like a water glass. Some races get a tumbler and others a shot glass. You can pour all you want into it but it will only hold so much. Those people south of the border benefit from western technology just as those do in Africa and Asia. But they didn’t invent any of it. They use it but never imagined, much less invented it. Every society has a few very bright or very ruthless people at the top. But in America, before the 60′s and affirmative action, mass immigration, etc. we had a very large white middle class that was a continual source of inventiveness and relative prosperity. With the advent of socialism/communism/liberalism, we are descending into third world status where minorities rule – Jews, blacks, asians and hispanics.

    Reed is essentially a fraud. He can’t deal with Mexico being a country of low IQ people who are only able to use other’s technology. Ask him what have hispanics invented in the last 100 years. The answer is nothing. What have blacks invented in the last 100 years? Nothing. What have asians invented in the last 100 years. Nothing.

  7. FKA Max says: • Website
    @LauraMR

    Typo above: Or Ireland, which is currently a corporate tax *haven* … not tax heaven ;-)

    There is some interesting research I did on the relationship between height and intelligence, which might interest you. I found that too much height might not necessarily be an intelligence-boosting trait:

    I just wanted to add one little caveat. During a mass Australian IQ test back in 2002, the results actually showed, that the people in the 180cm-200cm height range had the highest average scores, whereas the more than 201cm tall group only came in third place.
    [...]
    What this could indicate, is that beyond a certain height/weight it might be harder for the cardio-vascular system to keep up with properly supplying the brain, etc. with oxygen, nutrients, etc.
    [...]
    I still believe that the ”cognitive ability sweet spot” could be somewhere in the 180cm-200cm height range, probably more towards the upper boundary of that height range, maybe in the 190cm-196cm region(?), provided these tall persons are not overweight, plus having below average testosterone for males will additionally boost cognitive ability/mental clarity/rationality

    http://www.unz.com/isteve/the-flynn-effect-for-height/#comment-1855060

    My hypothesis is, that I predict that motor coordination/skills as a proxy for intelligence would increase with height possibly all the way to maybe 196cm in males — but maybe it is shorter(?) — and then decrease after that with increasing height. Possibly the “cognitive ability sweet spot” is somewhere in the 185cm to 195cm range, or even lower, possibly in the 175cm to 179cm range?

    http://www.unz.com/isteve/the-flynn-effect-for-height/#comment-1855302

    There is also Stedham Graham ( 6 feet 7 inches).

    I think Oprah might have quite and quietly benefited from his advice/intelligence/height.

    Tony Robbins is the same height, I believe, 6 feet 7 inches.
    [...]
    Dr. Phil 6 feet 4 inches.

    Oprah seems to have figured out, that it is a smart move to surround herself with tall guys.

    Personal Growth seems to be good for business ;-)

    http://www.unz.com/isteve/the-flynn-effect-for-height/#comment-1854275

    And not to forget, Mark Zuckerberg (5 feet 7 inches) benefited from the Winkelvoss twins’ intelligence/height (6 feet 5 inches) ;-)

    http://www.unz.com/isteve/the-flynn-effect-for-height/#comment-1854309

    There is this quite an amazing picture of Mark Zuckerberg walking alongside Instagram‘s co-founder Kevin Systrom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Systrom , who is 6 feet and 5 inches tall:

    Is Kevin Systrom very tall or is Mark Zuckerberg very short?

  8. By around 300 BCE, these Indians had invented both writing and a positional-exponential number system complete with zero, probably the best in the world at the time. As linguists universally acknowledge, their writing was real writing, not proto-writing or funny scratches on bark. Writing has been invented perhaps three times in human history. Further, they did this with a quite small population.

    Anybody but an IQist would think this remarkable and worthy of thought. Smart then, dumb now.Why and how did this happen? What mechanism can account for it? Is something wrong with the paradigm?

    Anybody with a moderate IQ would realize that there was another race ruling over these Indians. For some reason, no one is allowed to think that Europeans or Chinese traveled to the Americas before 1492. Perhaps a movement of Logic Realists will prevail to explain these oddities. The Solutrean hypothesis explains all this with hard evidence as proof.

  9. LauraMR says:
    @FKA Max

    Nutrition should also be accounted for when talking about issues such as height, imo. It probably confounds things when mingled with IQ and, thus, the limitation of correlation you find in this case. Interesting, nonetheless.

    • Replies: @NoseytheDuke
    , @FKA Max
  10. Fred, your intellectual honesty mirrors the work ethic of a proverbial Lazy Mexican. At least you’ve in good company.

    source:
    The Economist Went There – Shockingly Un-PC Study Shows Whites Work Hardest, Longest

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-11-20/economist-went-there-shockingly-un-pc-study-shows-whites-work-hardest-longest

  11. @FKA Max

    Nah, you had it right before … By EU and US standards of tax rates, Ireland is a corporate tax heaven.

  12. Haha, Fred Reed is, as always, fish-baiting:

    there’s no stupid after all,

    only stupider…

    as this thread has shown thus far, and will show when afroarmy arrives. rofl

  13. @Priss Factor

    It seems that Rushton in his late years(and/or Lynn? )has revised the avg of American Black IQ from 85 to 78, since they had overestimated the race-mixed portion.

    Meso 85 vs Negroes 78 perhaps makes more sense from the way how they collectively build a society.

    • Replies: @Basedman
  14. IQ test can be useful for determining if the individual being tested is likely to be suitable for performing specific work.

    The concept of average (or mean) IQ of large groups of people is devoid of any meaning.

  15. FKA Max says: • Website

    Typo, the *an* was too much: There is this quite *[]*amazing picture of Mark Zuckerberg walking alongside Instagram‘s co-founder Kevin Systrom

    What this could indicate, is that beyond a certain height/weight it might be harder for the cardio-vascular system to keep up with properly supplying the brain, etc. with oxygen, nutrients, etc.

    This study seems to confirm my hypothesis, that excessive height (200+ cm) comes with several drawbacks and likely has a negative effect on intelligence:

    [MORE]

    3.3. Biological advantages of shorter height
    [...]
    3.3.2. Lower workload per stroke
    The hearts of shorter people are scaled to their body weight. Thus, they have to pump an amount of blood in proportion to their body volume. However, shorter people have an advantage that their hearts do not have to pump blood as high as the hearts of taller people. Taller people’s hearts have to work harder in accordance with scaling laws29; e.g., a 10% taller person of the same body proportions as a shorter person has to pump 33% more blood 10% farther. Yet, the heart’s maximum muscle strength is only 21% greater. Shorter people, however, have a higher resting pulse rate.
    [...]
    3.3.8. Higher pumping efficiency
    Higher heart pumping efficiency increases the supply of oxygen and nutrients per kilogram of body mass. Smaller hearts have a higher pumping efficiency compared to larger hearts.40 De Simone found that heart size correlates with height, and taller people have a lower pumping efficiency. For normotensive adults, stroke volume and cardiac output increased at a lower rate with increase in height than with increase in weight (in proportion to the power of 0.71). Thus, both stroke volume and cardiac output do not keep up with body size of a taller person.
    [...]
    3.3.11. Heart advantages of taller people
    Taller people have a few heart advantages. Taller people have a lower resting heart rate compared to shorter people. A lower heart rate is generally associated with a longer functioning heart. In addition, larger diameter arteries are less likely to develop plaque build up on the Western diet. However, the previous discussion of Solomon and Kitava islanders indicates that if these are desirable factors, other aspects of being small offset the disadvantages of a higher heart rate and smaller blood vessels.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3861069/

    High resting heart rate and blood pressure linked to later mental health disorders

    “Our observations indicate that differences in physiological responses, such as stress reactions, are linked to the risk of mental disorders. It is also known that psychiatric illnesses are associated with an increased risk for cardiovascular disease. Our results open new opportunities for studying this connection as well,” Latvala says.

    https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/10/161026132932.htm

    • Replies: @FKA Max
  16. TheJester says:

    Fred,

    You missed the “tails” in the standard deviations related to IQ, especially on the right side. A population with an average IQ of 84 still has extremely intelligent people who can do extremely intelligent things. The question is, “Do they have enough of them to create a critical mass for these things?”

    I’m sure social structure also plays a role. For example, in authoritarian societies, those on the right side of the “tail” could congregate or be congregated in the palace where they could do those Da Vinci kinds of things that Europeans did in the Renaissance. They could invent Egyptian hieroglyphs and Mayan math and writing and leave opaque artifacts designed to puzzle us and, generations later, gaslight the theories of race realists and HBD fans.

    Hence, Fred, your thesis that even populations with average IQs of 85 could take us to the moon (cf. Hidden Figures) is a red herring. The better question is how societies should congregate and exploit the populations on the right side of their “tails” regardless of average IQ. Silicon Valley is a good example of this, albeit probably an accidental phenomenon.

    However, it would seem obvious that affirmative action and the resolution of disparate gaps that contaminate the right “tail” with average IQs is not the best way to congregate intelligence.

  17. dearieme says:

    “By around 300 BCE, these Indians had invented both writing and a positional-exponential number system complete with zero … Writing has been invented perhaps three times in human history. Further, they did this with a quite small population.”

    I have put this very point on various blogs and have had no reply that has seemed remotely fruitful.

    What if evolution had reduced the intelligence of indigenous Americans over the next couple of millennia? If so the obvious suspect would have to be the death toll from the introduction of Old World diseases. But why would they preferentially cull the cleverest?

  18. David says:

    Let’s remember that Fred believes all ants are controlled remotely by God, having concluded that an ant’s little brain is too little for its complex behavior. That’s science, Fred style.

    If he were a honey bee, he’d only visit wallpaper flowers.

  19. Truth says:

    Blacks did invent a sophisticated reading and writing system. It’s called “Hebrew.”

  20. @Mao Cheng Ji

    Repeating things doesn’t make them any more true. In fact, precisely the opposite is true.

  21. @The Alarmist

    Mr. Reed likes to very often present correlations as cause-and-effect outcomes. One needs only look around the world at where and by whom human progress (technological, scientific, cultural, language, medicine, etc.) is made. Mr. Reed also too often conducts a modicum of research for a subject and subsequently employs a very superficial understanding of the subject to present his position/viewpoint. Still, his comments are not without some merit as he makes people investigate matters in which Mr. Reed may have forced or encouraged a strong interest.

    In any group, be it racial or ethnic, there are always extremes of intelligence and innovation capabilities. It’s just that some groups have more than others. There will be the extremes of intellectual standouts and versus the dullards. It is often the question: Do the standouts exist in numbers sufficiently large to overcome the average of intellectual capacity combined with the number of dullards?

  22. @Truth

    Baltimore should start teaching the black native language Hebrew—and teaching Hebrew math, i.e. π = 3 (1st Kangs 7:23)—since 100% of blacks in 6 Baltimore schools are unable to pass the state test in standard English and Math.

  23. As another commenter pointed out, knowing the basics of how to use a technology is very different from being smart enough to have invented it.

    Construction is for the most part a mature technology. The people who built the Empire State Building, if they were still around, would recognize 90-95% of what went into constructing the prototypical modern Colombian hotel Fred points to. Note also that many of these hotels are franchisees of international chains, and as a result must be built to internationally recognized building codes as developed in the USA, Europe, and/or Japan. Building to the minimum required under local Colombian code is going to make the building uninsurable, and therefore a non-starter if an international hotel chain’s name is going to be on the building.

    And this is not an original observation, but I think that Fred’s cheer leading for his adopted tribe kind of falls into the category of “what did you expect?”. Something tells me that if large numbers of Fred’s current neighbors, along with MS-13 and other unpleasantness had moved into and colonized his leafy green small Virginia town he might have a different point of view.

  24. RAMROD says:
    @LauraMR

    IQ is the score on an IQ test. Standard answers are given to standard questions. High IQ people do well in regimented environments: school, work, military, etc. Show me someone with a high IQ and I will point out someone who is most likely a zealot conformist. That is a nice way of saying that most high IQ people are mentally dysfunctional because they can’t think for themselves.

    • Replies: @lavoisier
    , @LauraMR
  25. FKA Max says: • Website
    @FKA Max

    More confirmation:

    Tuvemo, T., (1999). Intellectual and physical performance and morbidity in relation to height in a cohort of 18-year-old Swedish conscripts. Horm Res, 52, 189 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10725784

    The graph makes clear that intellectual ability generally increases with height, but as you get to the tallest men it starts to fall off again. This is the kind of thing that I would expect to see here, being too far at the extremes tends to mean strange things are going on. However, being unusually short is even worse, so I suppose if you had to choose you should be tall.

    http://www.benespen.com/journal/2009/5/12/iq-and-height.html

  26. lavoisier says: • Website
    @Priss Factor

    Quite an entertaining analysis!

    I am uncertain of the truth content, but entertaining for sure.

  27. Anon • Disclaimer says:

    IQ won’t matter.

    FQ or Fertility Quotient will decide things.

    High IQ nations make more money, more women get educated and their standards too high for marriage. So, they don’t get married. So, they die out.
    Also, too much wealth means decadence and obsession with self-centrism. End of family.

    • Replies: @HallParvey
  28. @Whitey

    Reed is essentially a fraud. He can’t deal with Mexico being a country of low IQ people who are only able to use other’s technology. Ask him what have hispanics invented in the last 100 years. The answer is nothing. What have blacks invented in the last 100 years? Nothing. What have asians invented in the last 100 years. Nothing.

    It’s a fact that necessity is the mother of invention. With that being the case and with virtually every imaginable convenience provided to the groups mentioned above, why would they have any reason to invent anything?

  29. @LauraMR

    There are lots of reports from WWI where British soldiers were considerably shorter than their Australian counterparts even though the Australians were overwhelmingly of British stock and only a few generations removed.

    • Replies: @dearieme
  30. LauraMR says:
    @RAMROD

    Do you know what a normal distribution is?

  31. dearieme says:
    @NoseytheDuke

    “though the Australians were overwhelmingly of British stock and only a few generations removed”: a lot were only one generation removed. Cheaper food, sunshine and perhaps selective emigration?

    You need to remember that the sort of poor people who could emigrate to the US would find it impossible to emigrate to Australia – the cost was far more and they’d be out of a job for far longer.

    • Replies: @Anon
  32. BozoB says:

    Might i suggest that it really isn’t necessary to worry about group IQs at all? Undoubtedly there are some genetic factors, as there are in most things, but at this point who really knows how great they are? It seems to me reasonable to take people as they are, as they present themselves here and now. If they can score 1600 on the SAT and do high-level math and remember a lot of what they read, I’ll consider them smart. If they talk rubbish, get lousy grades and don’t do any intellectual work, I won’t. If you want to believe that socio-cultural factors are responsible for one group’s relative backwardness, fine. Just don’t insist that I agree; don’t ask me to pay for programs that will try to prove you right; don’t force me to retract my comment and apologize if I say that I’m not inclined to expect much from its members. The proof is in the pudding.

    • Replies: @pyrrhus
  33. pyrrhus says:

    Quite a bit of deceptive claptrap here…For example, IQs in 300 BC don’t have anything to do with IQs today. Presently, the western world appears to be losing at least 1 IQ point per generation as a result of dysgenic breeding (not including the effects of low IQ immigrants). So obviously peoples who were intelligent 2 millennia ago could be bottom dwellers today.

  34. pyrrhus says:
    @BozoB

    Pretty much agree, but the average IQ for a group generally tells you what percentage can solve differential equations, or even know what a differential equation might be….It doesn’t tell you whether an individual can do such a task.

  35. FKA Max says: • Website
    @FKA Max

    The two following comments were supposed to be replies to this comment, but I forgot to push the reply button when I commented:

    http://www.unz.com/freed/fun-with-iq-deep-thought/#comment-2091320

    http://www.unz.com/freed/fun-with-iq-deep-thought/#comment-2092002

    This is another interesting study:

    We found that genetic differences between countries provides an explanation for national differences in height,” lead author Matthew Robinson, from the University of Queensland in Australia, said Monday.
    [...]
    “They found that historic natural selection on both height and BMI has created genetic differences among different countries,” said a Nature press summary.

    The association was stronger for height than for mass – about a quarter of the variation in height and eight percent of the variation in BMI could be explained by regional genetic characteristics, the team found.

    The cause was likely “historic natural selection” – the Darwinian process whereby humans or animals best suited to their environment survive and transmit their genetic traits to succeeding generations, whereas inferior traits disappear over time.

    Many thousands of years ago when Europe was being settled, it is likely that the characteristics that were best to survive differed in the Mediterranean as compared to northern Europe,” Robinson theorised.

    http://www.scmp.com/news/world/article/1858274/tall-story-why-northern-europeans-tower-over-their-southern-counterparts

    Population genetic differentiation of height and body mass index across Europe

    https://www.nature.com/articles/ng.3401

  36. @Priss Factor

    “Negroes got the Bongo gene”

    Which gene is this?

  37. FKA Max says: • Website
    @LauraMR

    This is a great paper, that, I think, you will enjoy:

    The role of nutrition and genetics as key determinants of the positive height trend

    More concretely, it is the ratio between proteins of the highest quality (mainly from milk, pork meat and fish) and the lowest quality (i.e. plant proteins in general, but particularly wheat proteins). Besides that, we discovered a similarly strong connection between male height and the frequency of certain genetic lineages (Y haplogroups), which suggests that with the gradual increase of living standards, genetic factors will increasingly be getting to the foreground. Even today, many wealthy nations of West European descent are ca. 3 cm smaller than much poorer countries of the former Eastern bloc[] with the same nutritional statistics. Another evidence for this genetic hypothesis recently appeared in the study of Turchin et al. (2012), who found systematically higher presence of alleles associated with increased height in US whites of North European ancestry than in Spaniards.

    Remarkably, the quality of nutrition in the wealthiest countries shows signs of a marked deterioration, as indicated by the decreasing values of the “protein index”. This can illuminate the recent deceleration/cessation of the positive height trend in countries like USA, Norway, Denmark or Germany, which was routinely explained as the exhaustion of the genetic potential. In our opinion, this assumption is still premature and with the new improvement of nutritional standards, some increase still can be expected.

    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1570677X14000665

    Fig. 8. Ratio between the average consumption of high-quality proteins (milk products, pork meat, fish) and low-quality proteins (wheat) (for 2000–2009) and its relationship to male height (r = 0.72; p ˂ 0.001).

    Fig. 11. (a) Relationship between the frequency of Y haplogroup I-M170 and average male height in Europe (r = 0.65; p < 0.001) (43 countries). A separate regional sample of Herzegovina (70.9% I-M170; after Peričić et al., 2005) was added for an additional comparison. (b) Relationship between combined frequencies of Y haplogroups I-M170 + R1b-U106 and male height (r = 0.75; p < 0.001) (34 countries).

    Summary of all the most recent and relevant papers on this topic:

    Selection on height in Europe

    This is a highly interesting point from the article:

    We don’t know that the relationship between genetic and actual height is stable. For example, one hypothesis is that the Iberian Neolithic populations weren’t actually shorter – their environment promoted greater height, so that they were selected to reduce their genetic height so that actual height would remain at some optimum level. Then these differences in genetic height became exposed recently once environments became more equal across populations.

    http://mathii.github.io/review/2015/10/21/selection-on-height-in-europe

    Relatively high average annual temperatures, compared to the rest of Europe, most likely is the explanation why southern Europeans, specifically Iberians, selected against greater height and weight, imo. The Iberian peninsula is Europe’s warmest region. Han territory has a higher annual average temperature than Europe, North America, (South) Korea and Japan, for example, which is probably the reason why the Han Chinese have not been selecting for greater height/weight either:

    Bergmann’s Rule in Humans

    Source: https://anthropology.ua.edu/bindon/ant475/heatcold/thermo.htm

    Annual Average Temperature Map

  38. Fred’s first theorem-observation is proof of what Orwell noticed, that incredibly stupid conclusions require bright minds to hatch them. Here’s a hint, Fred. The IQ at Yale is not the IQ of New Haven.

    • Replies: @Pincher Martin
  39. @Mao Cheng Ji

    Another proof that the Chinese are the God after all. With 1.4 billion, we do have our fair of share of stupidity.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  40. Truth says:
    @RaceRealist88

    Where did I troll? I posted videos by two “Jews” who said it.

  41. @Whitey

    Is there anything in the last 2 years Fred has been on the “right” side of?
    Using his example, I assume the “number system” they invented was NOT so amazing or difficult, just novel.

  42. @PandaAtWar

    … we do have our fair of share of stupidity.

    Yeah, but, as a society they have not peaked yet. Western societies are very near Peak Stupidity, pretty much within a decade of some sort of world global-maximum. I could show you some 4-D graphs with grid-lines upon which moving green/yellow/red* zones pulsate rhythmically over time with circles and arrows, but the paper hasn’t been completely peer-reviewed yet, as most of the reviewers live in the red zones.
    .
    .
    .

    green = Good (Average IQ’s, common-sense prevailing – a negligible portion of the land area, totaling about the size of western Krakatoa.)

    yellow = Caution Area (Mix of high and low IQ’s, general light dingbattery with a significant chance of latent-onset imbecility – size is roughly equal to the part of Asia where the Orientals live, oh, the Orient!)

    red = Danger (High IQ’s, extreme stupidity prevalent trending toward flat-out moronicity. Has been asymptotically approaching a peak from they year 1965 onwards.)

  43. By around 300 BCE

    OH, FFS, Fred! Now you’re going all PC on us too. The hard-core displays of your latent-onset Mexicanity were only sporadic. I hope this new PC infection doesn’t take.

    What the hell is wrong with BC and AD, man? Or even, AC/DC, for that matter?
    .
    .

    • Replies: @Anon
  44. @Mao Cheng Ji

    Nothing wrong with the fact that IQ differs amongst groups. Just don’t be an elitist or supremacist, like the gas station louts described in the aticle.

    • Replies: @Mao Cheng Ji
  45. @Third world nationalist

    Nothing wrong with the fact that IQ differs amongst groups.

    There would’ve been nothing wrong with it if such thing as ‘group IQ’ existed as a meaningful characteristic. But it doesn’t.

  46. @Carroll Price

    Whites have been quite wealthy for quite some type, yet we continue to innovate.

    The big question for the next century is whether Asians will come out of their shell and start innovating at the rate of whites – or, higher, given their higher IQ.

    To me, NE Asians are the IQ anomaly. High IQ, low innovation. Is it nature or nurture. You see sparks here and there, and God knows that they can maintain a high-tech society supremely well, but where are the truly new inventions and not just refinements of current technology.

    For the sake of the world, I’m routing for the NE Asians since whites seem to be engaged in a suicidal death spiral.

    • Replies: @Carroll Price
    , @FKA Max
  47. @Citizen of a Silly Country

    Innovations and inventions are two entirely different things. While Orientals are masters at innovation, they do not appear to be inventors. True scientific breakthroughs like the vacuum tube and transistor (to name only two) appear to be restricted largely to the Caucasian race, especially individuals possessing a high percentage of Nordic blood.

  48. FKA Max says: • Website
    @Citizen of a Silly Country

    To me, NE Asians are the IQ anomaly. High IQ, low innovation. Is it nature or nurture.

    Important to distinguish between high average IQ test scores and high average genetic/physiological IQs of populations. The Chinese have mostly high average IQ/PISA, etc. test scores – these high test scores also mostly come from the rich, urban areas, not the poorer rural areas of China – which, in my opinion, explains the discrepancy between their high IQ test scores (in rich, urban areas) and their relatively lower innovative/inventive capacity/abilities.

    There is actually also some doubt about whether the Chinese are a high-IQ people:

    The manipulation is quite apparent, Lynn largely over-estimated China (+22), Japan (+7) to make East-Asians cluster on top, thus protecting himself from accusations of nordicism and giving support to the inter-cultural validity of the IQs that he cherry-picked.

    http://www.unz.com/jpetras/china-and-the-us-rational-planning-and-lumpen-capitalism/#comment-2066036

    But you are generally correct; it is a combination of a fairly large high-IQ population, culture (Protestantism), resources, geographical location, climate, etc. that leads to discoveries, inventions, prosperity, etc.

    Sweden is a good example, of a relatively small population which contributed disproportionately to the scientific field

    http://www.unz.com/jpetras/china-and-the-us-rational-planning-and-lumpen-capitalism/#comment-2068586

    The myopia boom

    The southern city of Guangzhou has long held the largest eye hospital in China. But about five years ago, it became clear that the Zhongshan Ophthalmic Center needed to expand.

    More and more children were arriving with the blurry distance vision caused by myopia, and with so many needing eye tests and glasses, the hospital was bursting at the seams.
    [...]
    East Asia has been gripped by an unprecedented rise in myopia, also known as short-sightedness. Sixty years ago, 10–20% of the Chinese population was short-sighted. Today, up to 90% of teenagers and young adults are. In Seoul, a whopping 96.5% of 19-year-old men are short-sighted.

    https://www.nature.com/news/the-myopia-boom-1.17120

    To put it crudely, myopia is not the ophthalmic sign of intelligence, rather it marks the striver”, says Alireza Mirshahi. – http://www.vision-research.eu/index.php?id=1100

    http://www.unz.com/jthompson/boost-your-iq/#comment-2078174

    Are Chinese Students Smarter than American Ones? | China Uncensored

    China is crushing the US in a world student ranking! The test results are back for the PISA,, that’s a global standardized test of 15 year old’s math, science, and reading skills and China dominated the US! Thank a lot 15 year olds! But before you start eating your young, there might be more than meets the eye to Chinese students crushing American ones on the Program for International Student Assessment. Let’s just say it involves Shanghai and some clever bending of the truth. See where your education system stands on this episode of China Uncensored!

  49. TG says:

    Here’s some other food for thought.

    One of the big unspeakable things about IQ tests, is that they are normalized for age. Performance (“fluid”) intelligence peaks in the early 20′s and declines steadily thereafter. If the testers didn’t factor in age, a white person aged 60 with an IQ of 105 would actually come out as significantly less intelligent than a black person aged 20 with an IQ of 95. Although the older person would presumably have more knowledge and learned skills.

    That means that Nigeria, which has a low national average IQ but a very young age distribution, might actually have a higher true national average intelligence than a country like Japan that has a much older age distribution…. But Nigeria is a disaster, and Japan is about the most peaceful and broadly prosperous society in all of human history.

    So: Yes different people have different skills. That must be acknowledged. Someone with an IQ of 82 should not be allowed to become a neurosurgeon or a commercial airline pilot ‘diversity’ be damned. But IQ isn’t everything…

    • Replies: @Pincher Martin
  50. Rurik says:

    conservatives with their characteristic tribal hostility toward anyone different and nearby.

    Fred seems obsessed with Mexican immigration into the ZUS these days. And the burgeoning urge to restrict selfsame.

    clue: It isn’t about IQ. It’s about race, and the glaringly obvious truth that two or more races forced into the same territory = racial competition and strife. If whitey or Asians had demonstrably higher IQs, does that mean that Mexicans should welcome even the poorest of them by the millions to remake Mexico into a whitey-land? How well did that work out for the Amerindians?

    I’m pretty sure that if you told the blacks of Zimbabwe that whites are smarter, and so they should let them demographically take over, that the blacks would say ‘no thanks’. Because they like being blacks. Just as whitey likes being whitey. Just as Mexicans like being Mexicans, and don’t want to blend with whites or blacks or anyone else, high IQ or not.

    Fred knows all this, but contorts his mind into a tortured act of dissembling that what’s obvious- ain’t

    he’s become a kind of tragicomic caricature of hisown[former]self, mocking the kind of down-homey truths he and his prose were renowned for.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  51. @james wilson

    He’s not going to understand what you mean. He’s spent a lifetime not understanding.

  52. @TG

    That means that Nigeria, which has a low national average IQ but a very young age distribution, might actually have a higher true national average intelligence than a country like Japan that has a much older age distribution….

    That’s ridiculous, of course.

    IQ tests are routinely given to young people around the globe. None of them show young Nigerians with a higher IQ than young Japanese. Or even close to the same IQ.

  53. End of race-ism means end of nation.

    • Replies: @Truth
  54. @Carroll Price

    It’s a fact that necessity is the mother of invention.

    That’s not a fact. That’s a proverb.

    Innovators don’t innovate because they have to. They innovate because they’re very smart and they like innovating.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  55. utu says:

    All this talk about IQ and we are forgetting about SQ – Sitzfleisch Quotient. What some cultures and possibly races are lacking is the Sitzfleisch Quotient. With SQ one can recommend IQ. You can’t acquire IQ if you do not have SQ.

    Perhaps Fred Reed should look around in his pueblo and write about why Mexicans gave deficit in the Sitzfleisch Quotient.

  56. Dingo jay says: • Website

    Hay around 300 Bce they had a written language and advanced math.Yet no wheel ???

  57. edNels says:

    Well see here now, the thing is that it’s one of the examples of where the folks who make the ”test” to figure out the “I Q” are smarter fellers than they seem. What I mean is they are clever and sneaky and they figured out a way of getting a square peg in the round hole, or INO’s (”put the horse before the cart”).

    THey have a job to do, and they have an objective to fulfill. But to get to the result that pays the bills, they need to appear to do something wondrous and deeply scientifically founded, same ol’ same ole trick. Make the desired result (low IQ) appear on demand.

    The people that they want to put down must test low on the test, so the test is rigged to that end. I don’t want to go on a field day to describe how that is done, but for low IQ types who are over developed in modern civilized erudite reading and writ’n etc. who score abnormally high on the IQ tests, well, you should take a test for the Aborigines to find out what your survival skills IQ is, or a Eskimo IQ test to find out how much talent you got for the finer points of snowflakes and making a warm bed out of a block a ice!

    Seems to me, the young are learning new games from ubiquitous culture influences, and getting boned up on the integral parts and pieces that comprise IQ tests that come from the world of nurds with abstract minds and white coats hiding in ivory towers, leaning like the pisa

    and there are a lot of good reasons not to sit around and waste time on IQ tests, if one has depression from living in Equatorial Guinea, and that is your future! Smile, Be Happy! what more is there for them people to do? Or anybody anywhere with a pulse, might have a load of emotional values that displace those tested for.

    We’ll see how the smart fellers do up against AI as it roles out and see how magnanimously they will rush forward to help train their replacements.

    Funny how these students of psychology often become dried old prunes ruling on who is smart or not.

  58. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Whitey

    What have asians invented in the last 100 years. Nothing.

    Is this a joke?

    Most of the parts of the computer that you’re using, much of it perhaps incremental innovation but still the final design was Japanese, Korean and Chinese. And the LED monitor is a completely Japanese invention.

    Heck, as gwern as noted, Japanese animation/storytelling/etc. consistently comes up with more innovative storylines than Hollywood these days – even though much of it is indeed dreck, the sheer quantity of material means that there repeatedly gets diamonds amongst the others. Its not exactly a coincidence that Firefly took material from Bebop, Ghost in the Shell was remade, and JJ Adams is trying to remake another recent hit from Japan as well.

    Whatever the strength of Western innovation there was – and it was significant, is increasingly in the pits as Charles Murray as observed.

    http://www.newsweek.com/how-blue-led-changed-world-and-won-nobel-prize-275977

    • Agree: dfordoom
    • Replies: @KenH
  59. @Pincher Martin

    Its not nearly that simple. Peter Frost has written about the culture/gene coevolution, and ultimately the appropriate genes will develop only in a culture that rewards it – and even then, knowledge can be lost and/or underutilized.

    For a simple example: Rome developed a number of mechanical devices but never was able to heavily switch to waterwheels and windmills simply because the high capital investment meant it wasn’t competitive compared to captive slave labor from the many wars. Likewise, Needham documented a number of Chinese inventions but the lack of secure property meant that businesses would never try to invest in them.

    And if a behavior isn’t encouraged due to the society for whatever reason, it’ll gradually be extinguished. For what it is worth, I do believe that there’s a difference between “IQ” and “divergent thought”, but in general I think that IQ is at best a rough proxy, similar to volume of air exaled for fitness. The neuroscience behind thought is a bit more complicated than that.

    • Replies: @Pincher Martin
  60. @Rurik

    Rurik, I have enjoyed reading all of your comments under Mr. Reed’s erroneous posts that are basically a rebuttal to all things iSteve, in a way. I meant to reply to you around Thanksgiving, but let me just get on to something I wrote today under Sailer’s post about Mexican shoddy building methods and the housing bubble in parts of that country. People brought up Mr. Reed there.

    I guy named Steve-o wrote that Mr. Reed is an “emotional thinker” (Steve-o’s term). My reply:

    Steve-o, that was just what I was going to write under Mr. Reed’s last article (got caught up in other writing)! “Emotional thinker” is the exactly right term, though I suppose one could say emotion is not thought. Anyway, he thinks like a woman is what I will write for my comment there, and I wonder if it’s because of the little senora.

    I have no reason to believe otherwise than what Fred writes about his Mexican family – that they are very intelligent. This is bad for his columns when he does write on Mexico, as it’s not like some illiterate spouse who can’t even read the stuff. Fred’s got to worry about what the wife thinks, and the truth suffers anytime he writes about, well, anything besides diving anymore.

    There’s a bit more to it, I think also, in terms of his egging on of over a hundred comments (good for his stats on unz) with this type of column, in addition to possibly a hatred of his for VDare people. I like the VDare people, as I like truth.

    Oh, my original comment (before I read yours) was going to just be: But, but .. no … per Fred Reed, Mexico is an economic powerhouse! They are in a new, post-Siesta phase and will leave the gringo economy in the dust … any day now.

    • Replies: @Rurik
  61. Freed is talking implicitly about WHITE PEOPLE

    but

    ALL people think they are superior than others, right or not….

    loved mexicans too…

    metoo#
    yótambién#

  62. Their chief beliefs are that everything came about through Darwinian evolution, probably to include sunspots, that everything is genetic in origin (presumably including their politics, a thought they overlook), and that IQ tests provide an infallible measure of intelligence.

    Strawman of strawman…

  63. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    You’d think Mexicans of all people would use AD/BC(AC). Unless Fred’s planning to switch to the Mayan calendar.

    AC/DC actually works in Spanish, didn’t know if you knew that.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  64. When various Asian peoples proved awkwardly to be smarter than whites, the louts said, well, OK, but they can’t innovate.

    The differences are not so sky-high as you want to believe Fred..

    VARIOUS asian peoples…

    And yes, whites seems MORE creative than east asians OR there are more BIG-Creative people among caucasians [shekelnazis included] than among east asians, specially than continental east asians, aka, sino-koreans…

    It’s different to say

    ”east asians CAN’T innovate”

    but

    ”SOOOOOOOOOOOME west europeans [and other caucasians] CAN SUPER-innovate”…

  65. These views came to constitute as hermetic a bubble as anything the Catholic Church or Communist Party ever came up with. And so, like their enemies the mental defectives with the placards, they fell into simply shouting down doubters as a form of CDA (Cognitive Dissonance Avoidance).

    Seems less idiotic to say

    ”ALL mexicans are just like us”

  66. ”Deep thought” = expectancy

    ”Creepy thought” = reality

  67. Basedman says:
    @PandaAtWar

    Also important to remember that there’s substantial regional variation in negro IQ. The national average of 85 would be a blessing in long-suffering Baltimore – where the indigenous rape-apes clock in at only 76.

  68. AaronB says:

    Fred, I think it is sufficiently established by now that the IQ cult is not logical, and is believed in for emotional reasons by people concerned with status.

    No amount of detailed, logical, thorough analysis of the deficiencies of IQ are going to change their beliefs.

    It is based on emotion, and can only die by emotion.

    If my admittedly poor understanding of social tactics is correct, I believe to have any result you must switch to a strategy of ‘mocking’ – pointing and laughing.

    According to self-proclaimef experts, that, apparently, is the approved method in such cases.

    For those capable of logical analysis and reflection, I would like to suggest another confounding factor when discussing IQ, and achievement in general.

    Motivation. Sometimes called morale, or simply – desire.

    If you can’t be bothered to make an effort, to expend energy, to “show up”, if you simply dont care, then no test can capture your ‘innate’ ability, and real-world accomplishment similarly cannot be made to yield invariable, precise information about your capabilities across the board in all conceivable times snd sutuations.

    And yet, those interested in IQ like to pretend that motivations is a constant, invariable factor across time and population groups.

    Such unscientific folly can only be motivated by emotional factors, likely centering on considerations of status, and perhaps, to be charitable, by limitations of methodology, as the difficulties in reliably measuring motivation across time and across groups would likely prove insuperable.

    The very idea of isolating ‘ability’, as an abstract factor separate from the entire psycho-emotional state, snd then measuring it singly, can thus be seen as suspect, and as resting on unfounded assumptions. In the last resort, as unscientific.

    As has long been known, the intellect is the servant of the will – a highly significant fact pregnant with implications.

    It seems likeky extreme desire can result in increased ability, and is consistent with observed rises in IQ of up to ten points in a generation.

    The intellect can be developed, and the idea that we can capture a static unchanged “core” has no scientific basis outside the fond wishes of some.

    Many of the dramatic changes within a single generation (Singapore from 102, the same as Italy, to 108, in four short years), can easily be explained this way, and larger changes across generations, perhaps, likewise.

    The fact that our ‘interventions’ have so far not worked does not touch the issue, as the motivation, desire, willingness, and morale of the subject of the intervention has never been ascertained, and likely could not be.

    In any case, it is an observed fact of history that groups rise and fall, and that groups with similar measured ‘innate’ intelligence display wildly different levels of real world accomplishment.

    All this is beyond dispute, and will prove fatal for the hard IQ theory unless it can succesffuly deal with these challenges.

    It has conspicuously failed to do so so far, and prefers sweeping them under the rug.

    In a hundred years, will people laugh at the naivete and simplicity of today’s IQ theorists?

  69. Let us start here:

    IQ 83. Meso-American Indians, more specifically purebred Mexican Indians, are said to have a mean IQ of 83. This is observationally plausible. Today they seem intellectually dormant.
    IQ 84. Colombia, mean IQ 84, runs modern cities, airlines, telecommunications, and other trappings of modernity.
    IQ 85. American blacks. They are thought in the hbd world to be unable to do things that Colombians do routinely, yet they have a higher IQ than Colombians..
    IQ 86. Ireland was long said by IQists to have this intelligence, odd in a white European nation, but was later promoted to 100, with some authorities averaging the two to get 93.
    It seems curious that such similar IQs would produce such disparate results.

    The same failled argument, where is your ”deep” thought* Still in the surface…

    Less vagueness of your argumentative intentions and more objectivity, what you mean**

    The ”latino” avg IQ is [considerably] higher than 80-lows 90**

    Your wife is not in the same team than your house/ hacienda keeper Freed!!

    And your wife is a minority among mexicans!

    IQ 85. American blacks. They are thought in the hbd world to be unable to do things that Colombians do routinely, yet they have a higher IQ than Colombians..

    Less SUGGESTIVE arguments and more CONCLUSIVELY WORKED-ones…

    Explain us what are your conclusive reasoning lines about it*

    Different distributions**

    Blacks are considerably more mentalizing/empathizing than systemizing** [even higher IQ ones*]

    - More prone to be violent**

    [In the USA, black criminality tend to be double-plus-higher than ''latino'']

    These ”colombians” who can build things are just, on avg, different and discrete ethnic-socio-historically-cognitive classes than those who can’t*

    • Replies: @Santoculto
  70. By around 300 BCE, these Indians had invented both writing and a positional-exponential number system complete with zero, probably the best in the world at the time. As linguists universally acknowledge, their writing was real writing, not proto-writing or funny scratches on bark. Writing has been invented perhaps three times in human history. Further, they did this with a quite small population.

    Anybody but an IQist would think this remarkable and worthy of thought. Smart then, dumb now.Why and how did this happen? What mechanism can account for it? Is something wrong with the paradigm?

    Long time ago isn’t Fred*

    I thought you have the answers…

    • Replies: @Santoculto
  71. @Santoculto

    Salvadorians and hondurians ”are” more criminal in USA as ”they” are in their respective countries*

  72. anonguy says:

    More beautiful loser junk/virtue signalling by Fred, who has gone full crypto-libtard in his senescence.

    Pack it in dude, stick to your planned retirement of being a creepy old white guy in Mexico leering at the young local girls. At least you aren’t a farang in Thailand, albeit pretty darn close.

  73. @Anon

    “FQ or Fertility Quotient will decide things.

    High IQ nations make more money, more women get educated and their standards too high for marriage. So, they don’t get married. So, they die out.
    Also, too much wealth means decadence and obsession with self-centrism. End of family.”

    Strange that. Sounds like a Darwinian negative feedback loop. Too much IQ is not good for any race.

    Or perhaps it’s something else entirely.

    For example, the modern form of Christianity. One which includes everybody, no matter what their makeup.

    Or possibly, its replacement. Secular humanism. It’s the same thing stripped of the magical mystery stuff and the magic words.

    Both just variations on the philosophy of socialism.

    Bonjour

  74. As a north European, living in Scandinavia, with an above average IQ, I can only say that articles of this type belongs in the dustbin. Especiall as the author seems American, whom to all other, have been continously made more stupid during at least the last three decades. I for certain am absolutely sure that the American results are doctored…
    In general these measurements have been holed through by pisa studies and independent studies altogether. Categorizing a population on basis of such fraud, is right in the tracks of the Nazi ideology and belief.
    The comments section is even better and now I am there too…Gott in himmel! Public education is really bad in other parts of the world…

  75. @Daniel Chieh

    Its not nearly that simple. Peter Frost has written about the culture/gene coevolution, and ultimately the appropriate genes will develop only in a culture that rewards it – and even then, knowledge can be lost and/or underutilized.

    At any point over the last five hundred years in Western Europe, when both science and technology flourished in the West, I doubt that more than one percent of the population was capable of genuine innovation. If we’re really generous, we might raise that figure a percent or two.

    So I’m skeptical that innovation evolved in the way Frost describes it. The trait is too small in any population, and too diffuse even when looking at the relevant subpopulation of highly intelligent people, to have been rewarded by some culture/gene evolution.

    Was intelligence selected in some populations and societies? Sure. How about other traits which feed into innovating? Possibly. But the more likely explanation for why innovators began to flourish in Western Europe is far more complex than that the specific trait of innovation was selected for.

    If you look at innovators themselves, however, you see a common trait of what H.L. Mencken described well:

    “The value the world sets upon motives is often grossly unjust and inaccurate. Consider, for example, two of them: mere insatiable curiosity and the desire to do good. The latter is put high above the former, and yet it is the former that moves some of the greatest men the human race has yet produced: the scientific investigators. What animates a great pathologist? Is it the desire to cure disease, to save life? Surely not, save perhaps as an afterthought…. What actually moves him is his unquenchable curiosity–his boundless, almost pathological thirst to penetrate the unknown, to uncover the secret, to find out what has not been found out before. His prototype is not the liberator releasing slaves, the good Samaritan lifting up the fallen, but the dog sniffing tremendously at an infinite series of rat-holes.”

    Even among highly intelligent men, this desire to figure things out is often missing. Most don’t have it. I would bet that the majority of men with an IQ above 130 either put their energy into how best to enrich themselves by hoodwinking their less intelligent citizens in perfectly legal ways – finance, for example – or simply find some high-status sinecure (professor, for example) that allows them to live out their days with enough money and leisure to enjoy their lives.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @Daniel Chieh
  76. 1. IQ estimates are often very rough.
    2. Innovation depends more on smart fraction than mean IQ per se.
    3. Africans in Africa can apparently maintain industrial civilisation at least to some extent, in places like Nairobi, with a median IQ around 70.
    4. African-American IQ 85 is influenced by a largely Anglo-American created environment; no one alleges nurture has NO effect on IQ.

  77. Rurik says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    thanks Achmed E., and I reciprocate the sentiment

    Fred’s got to worry about what the wife thinks,

    not just his wife, but I wonder about his daughters

    I know fathers that will adjust their ‘thinking’ and attitudes in powerful ways to accommodate their daughter’s favor. (sons just don’t seem to qualify for that kind of influence)

    if your daughter viscerally despises Trump as a monster and an indefensible racist, (and anyone who agrees with his racist ‘wall’) then you might not want to be that guy that tries to defend Trump and les Deplorables

    perhaps she has a Mexican boyfriend, and perhaps they’d like to emigrate to the states, and are finding it more complicated today under the racist Trump administration. And there is rancor in the household and hatred for the white racists (“intellectual equivalent of gas-station louts”) in the ZUSA.

    What would you do? Side with hateful racists and “louts”, or with your daughter?

    I know a lot of Hispanics, and there is a lot of rancor over Trump, and the changing trajectory that promised a Reconquista very soon, as has happened in California for instance. When they’ll ‘Never Again’ vote an American firster on any state issue.

    There has been an enthusiasm in the air for decades that was palatable, as the forces of anti-white hatred and comeuppance for all of whitey’s sins, both real and imagined, were going to be accounted for, once he became a minority in his former lands. And now all of that enthusiasm is turning to toxic bile, as whitey makes one last ditch stand to persevere. Just as they were on the brink of putting it to him but good.

    it’s a mixture of despair and hatred. As you can see on their faces.

    would it be any wonder if Fred wanted some domestic tranquility, even if the price was annoying some of his readers and former supporters?

    I doubt Fred worries too much about what the Yankees are up to, but then again, he’s old enough not to worry about what it will be like in the Mexican future when the gringos in Mexico are no longer protected by a US that’s still has a thin white majority. As Fred has mentioned, the cartels leave the US expatriates alone in Mexico, as off limits. But will that still be the case once the ZUS has become overtly anti-white in every real life metric.

    The whites of Haiti or Rhodesia were protected by the racial ties they had to their respective motherlands. Once those ties were cut, then so too were the fortunes of those minority whites in Haiti and Zimbabwe. The pervasive idiocy that permeates the rhetoric these days is that only white people are or even can be racist. The whites of Haiti and Zimbabwe found out too late that this isn’t exactly true. Does Fred suppose that the gangs of Mexico will always consider the gringos as off limits, even once the ZUS no longer willing to protect them?

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  78. AaronB says:
    @Pincher Martin

    Even among highly intelligent men, this desire to figure things out is often missing. Most don’t have it.

    Nice to see motivation considered as a factor, finally.

    The shape of desire, the direction of desire, is a mysteriously overlooked factor in world affairs.

    The assumptions that all people at all times want the same things, seems bizarre.

    Western innovation is probably no more mysterious than simply being a function of desire – absolute power over the physical world, well beyond anything needed, was our hearts inmost desire.

    We therfore resolved to artifically narrow our thinking to only those factors which were conducive to this project, to literally not “see” anything else (see Descartes, and Bacon).

    The intellect is the servant of the will.

    • Replies: @Pincher Martin
  79. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    We conclude:

    A nation’s mean IQ can rise or fall by at least five points in four years.

    The results are actually very consistent across the board so a 5 point difference for one country is probably an issue with methodology. “We” can also “conclude” that the worst dumbfucks were exported if “we” wanted to.

    Thus:

    Since IQ correlates positively with national prosperity, then, as prosperity rises, so must IQ.

    Thus: you’re genuinely retarded. Please stop writing about IQ.

  80. @Pincher Martin

    I would say that its often married to a kind of obsessive drive. This driving sense of obsession was most likely correlated often with a sense of importance of the work – this kind of mild psychosis is noted in chess grandmasters, for example, who often attribute that the game has grand intellectual or political significance(both of which are dubious and recent meta-studies refute).

    It was least partly helped by the strong correlation early on with religion: alchemy and occultism, which were highly correlated with early European researchers, attributed divine significance to the search for truth. Catholicism also developed theologically that reason would demonstrate the value of faith, which served to spur both Mendel and Linnaeus.

    The Earth’s creation is the glory of God, as seen from the works of Nature by Man alone. The study of nature would reveal the Divine Order of God’s creation, and it was the naturalist’s task to construct a “natural classification” that would reveal this Order in the universe. – Linnaeus

    As P. Frost noted, the European elite of the 1300s and pre-Reformation was hardly recognizable to us now – where violence was extolled and literacy was determined as learning needed only by scribes and priests. A change in culture allowed for a different elite, and a different set of traits to rise. This is reinforced by studies that show that the brain is indeed trainable, within limits.

    https://scihub22266oqcxt.onion.link/10.1002/hbm.23246

    • Replies: @Anon
    , @AaronB
    , @Pincher Martin
  81. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    When did P. Frost note that violence was extolled? By whom? And in what sense?

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  82. AaronB says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    European researchers, attributed divine significance to the search for truth.

    This is a common perception, but thinkers like Descartes and Bacon are clear about their motivations, and it was not “truth”.

    It pays to read the words of the actual originators of this new way of thinking, and what they thought they were fighting against, and what they hoped to achieve.

    Before science could get under way, the religious quest for truth, which was characteristic of the Middle Ages, had to be overcome.

    Effectiveness, ability to manipulate matter, had to be enthroned as the supreme value.

    A concern with truth is exactly what Science had to overcome.

    Modern hagiographers of science like to sentimentalize it’s origins, but to understand science, what it does to societies that embrace it, and what questions it is designed to answer, it is necessary to understand it’s roots.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    , @Talha
  83. @Rurik

    Yeah, for a lot of ex-patriates, things may not be as warm as they seem, in those Banana Republics. OK, I don’t really see Mexico as a banana republic, as Fred seems to think we all do, but the point in that link was to add to your opinion of the gringos future in Mexico with the economic aspect of it. The dollar won’t be king forever, and it has about overstayed its time at the top already.

    I understand what you wrote about pleasing the daughters or just trying to get along without argument, but, then why doesn’t Mr. Reed just write about fishing, diving, cop stuff, etc? He has been all around and should still have plenty to write about.

    He really has a big beef against the VDare people, and it’s enough to make me think it’s personal, not even just opinion (somebody dissed him… someone owes somebody a few hundred bucks, whatever….) I am sure there is also an element of “bring on the hatred” to get the comment count up high. I had thought that Fred was syndicated in a lot of places, along with having his FredOnEverything well-read site, but he may be too un-PC for most bigger-money “venues”. If remuneration from Unz is significant to his income, then this method of pissing off the readers with bullshit (though not ALL the time, or it wouldn’t work) may be his way of holding on to the gig.

    … it’s a mixture of despair and hatred.

    I can’t read that black guy’s face, but I think there is an element of fear in these people’s minds now. The white man has been woken up too soon. It was supposed to happen after we were all constrained and had no way out. Somebody screwed the pooch, though. “These people globalist/lefties are just not used to losing”

    • Replies: @Rurik
    , @Rod1963
  84. @Anon

    Its in one of his blog entries, but the idea that cultural forces fundamentally changed the frequency of violence on a genetic level is also in one of his papers Henry Harpending, abstracted below:

    Through its monopoly on violence, the State tends to pacify social relations. Such pacification proceeded slowly in Western Europe between the 5th and 11th centuries, being hindered by the rudimentary nature of law enforcement, the belief in a man’s right to settle personal disputes as he saw fit, and the Church’s opposition to the death penalty….Courts imposed the death penalty more and more often and, by the late Middle Ages, were condemning to death between 0.5 and 1.0% of all men of each generation…Meanwhile, the homicide rate plummeted from the 14th century to the 20th….this new cultural environment selected against propensities for violence.

    • Replies: @Anon
    , @Ron Unz
  85. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @LauraMR

    And so, given any two populations A and B and their largely overlapping IQ distributions, it is factually so that just about half the population of A will have a higher IQ than just about half the population of B, and vice versa. Once again, see any chart with a couple of IQ distributions.

    What are you talking about? Which A-B “populations”? What charts?

    Norway’s average IQ is 100 while Somalians reign supreme at 68. Those two Bell Curves will almost exclusively overlap in the Dumb & Dumber range with only a tiny percentage of Somalians overlapping in the 99+ IQ segment (1.6% if we use this 15 SD chart: http://archive.is/ZV0m8 ). Meanwhile, 53% will be officially “mildly” (a PC adjective) retarded or worse (69 IQ and below).

    Furthermore: native Norwegians will have 150 IQ (and above) geniuses everywhere (one in 2330 natives) while Somalians will have NONE (the chances are 1:43508721 and there are simply not enough of them – yet).

    • Replies: @LauraMR
  86. @AaronB

    Well, its pretty evidence that social coherence was not their goal and their methods were fundamentally deconstructive: the search to isolate aspects of reality in order to better control it. It was scientifically profitable but I don’t disagree with you at all that it led fundamentally to the atomized society and overall alienation that we consider as modernity.

    • Replies: @Anon
  87. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    Okay. The 5th-11th century are not the 1300s, but okay. I’d love to see something more concrete than that cloud of verbiage, though. Anyway his point seems to be that the centralization of the state is what reduced violence. How does he square that with the preceding Roman period? Does he posit a period of reversed evolution towards greater violence? Sounds interesting.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  88. J1234 says:

    I actually agree with the basic gist of Fred’s article, and that’s a rare occurrence. Sure, he takes his argument to weird conclusions at times, but hey…he’s Fred.

    Intelligence may be measured by IQ, but it certainly isn’t understood by the measurement of IQ. I really wish that race realists would get off the IQ obsession. There are too many things that can’t be explained by it. For example, how the supposedly dull meso-Americans of the pre-Columbian era developed stunning civilizations like those of the Aztecs or the Mayans. No, the Aztecs and Mayans never came up with the wheel or the beast of burden, but that actually makes what they accomplished all the more stunning.

    Italy has the highest aggregate IQ of any country in Europe (save Germany, by some stats), but when I mention that online, so called race realists say, “Whoa, what are you talking about? That can’t be right.”

    Why not? Remember the Roman Empire? The Italian Renaissance? Their response is often, “Well, it must be a function of the northern Italians, you know, the blonde ones.” Whatever.

    For some reason, however, there isn’t a connection of IQ and previous civilizational accomplishment in meso-America like their is in Italy. This demonstrates that IQ often fails to show what many race realists want it to show. Sometimes it can make a plausible case for societal incompetence on the part of some populations, like sub-Saharan Africans, but other times it can’t. The causality of IQ and achievement seems to hold true more for individuals than populations.

    Temperament and character are probably more important than IQ for societal success, and I believe those may be hereditary among populations, but they aren’t easy to quantify, so….

  89. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    Bacon wasn’t much of an actual scientist and Descartes was certainly interested in truth, though otherwise the general drift seems unobjectionable.

  90. Truth says:
    @Priss Factor

    That is one wierd photoshop on that Broad’s hand.

  91. @Anon

    The Romans felt that gladiatorial fights extolled manly virtues and particularly despised Christians for being soft and womanly, so they definitely respected violence and tried to maintain a form of it – but I do think that its fair to say that decreased centralization encouraged the propagation of men with a reputation for violence(general clannish virtues).

    At any rate, his argument is that the mass slaughter of criminals before they could reproduce heavily selected against the MAO-A gene and is why it is so rare in Western Europeans now, with blacks having 50x being more likely to carry it instead of whites.

    http://www.unz.com/pfrost/the-return-of-fear/

    • Replies: @FKA Max
  92. @J1234

    For example, how the supposedly dull meso-Americans of the pre-Columbian era developed stunning civilizations like those of the Aztecs or the Mayans. No, the Aztecs and Mayans never came up with the wheel or the beast of burden, but that actually makes what they accomplished all the more stunning.

    Huge dysgenics caused by hyper-endogamic trends among upper classes seems a good possibility of explanation.

  93. Talha says:
    @AaronB

    Hey AaronB – always good to see you post.

    Some wisdom from the late Neil Postman’s “Technopoly: The Surrender of Culture to Technology” – he cites a list of characteristics of those who oppose a technopoly, those…
    -who pay no attention to a poll unless they know what questions were asked, and why;
    -who refuse to accept efficiency as the per-eminent goal of human relations;
    -who have freed themselves from the belief in the magical powers of numbers, do not regard calculation as an adequate substitute for judgment, or precision as a synonym for truth;
    -who refuse to allow psychology or any “social science” to pre-empt the language and thought of common sense;
    -who are, at least, suspicious of the idea of progress, and who do not confuse information with understanding;
    -who do not regard the aged as irrelevant;
    -who take seriously the meaning of family loyalty and honor, and who, when they “reach out and touch someone,” expect that person to be in the same room;
    -who take the great narratives of religion seriously and who do not believe that science is the only system of thought capable of producing truth;
    -who know the difference between the sacred and the profane, and who do not wink at tradition for modernity’s sake;
    -who admire technological ingenuity but do not think it represents the highest possible form of human achievement.

    He calls these the “resistance fighters” and further states:
    “A resistance fighter understands that technology must never be accepted as part of the natural order of things, that every technology — from an IQ test to an automobile to a television st to a computer — is a product of a particular economic and political context and carries with it a program, an agenda, and a philosophy that may or may not be life-enhancing and that therefore require scrutiny, criticism, and control. In short, a technological resistance fighter maintains an epistemological and psychic distance from any technology, so that it always appears somewhat strange, never inevitable, never natural.”

    In a hundred years, will people laugh at the naivete and simplicity of today’s IQ theorists?

    You’re willing to give it that long? I dub thee an optimist!

    Peace.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  94. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @J1234

    “Well, it must be a function of the northern Italians, you know, the blonde ones.” Whatever.

  95. @J1234

    Temperament and character are important but not super-important as ”IQ”, MOST IQistics love to conflates as intelligence itself.

    Many if not most civilizations has been buildt not by fantastically ethical people, otherwise…

    Temperament = ok

    ”IQ”//intelligence = ok

    Unfortunately Character = not so, has been less important.

    Roman Empire is a very good example…

  96. Ron Unz says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    Its in one of his blog entries, but the idea that cultural forces fundamentally changed the frequency of violence on a genetic level is also in one of his papers Henry Harpending, abstracted below:

    Actually, I’m pretty sure that Peter Frost’s analysis of the historical was completely incorrect, with the selective-pressure being 1-2 orders-of-magnitude too small to produce the effect he claimed. I pointed this out in a lengthy exchange in the comment-thread:

    http://www.unz.com/pfrost/western-europe-state-formation-and-genetic-pacification-3/?commenterfilter=ron_unz

    Frost became quite agitated at my quantitative arguments, and went so far as to begin deleting my (very polite) comments on my own website. I viewed this sort of behavior as unacceptable, and therefore cancelled his moderation privileges.

    Given Frost’s endless complaints about MSM “censorship,” I think this particular example perfectly illustrates Fred Reed’s analysis of certain unfortunate aspects of the “HBD community”…

  97. @AaronB

    Western innovation is probably no more mysterious than simply being a function of desire – absolute power over the physical world, well beyond anything needed, was our hearts inmost desire.

    I doubt it’s built on anything that grand. Nor do I believe it can reduced to a single factor.

    Clearly, if a society is to innovate it needs a smart fraction, which means a high mean IQ.

    Then among that smart fraction, it needs at least a few bright and creative people who have a strong impulse to tinker and figure things out.

    Then it needs a culture which, even if it doesn’t lavishly reward innovators, at least integrates their inventions and work into society, allowing for positive feedback which both encourages more innovation and gives innovators some place to live and work in that society.

    That’s just off the top of my head. I’m probably missing a couple important factors.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  98. @Ron Unz

    That is unfortunate, and reminds me of similar issues with other HBD bloggers.

    • Replies: @Truth
  99. AaronB says:
    @Talha

    Hey, Talha it’s good to see you around these parts too!

    Your wise words always bring me comfort and remind me that not all is darkness yet.

    We must bring light and wisdom to the modern barbarians, East or West :)

    Neil Postman was a wise man, but perhaps more radical than he knew –

    who have freed themselves from the belief in the magical powers of numbers, do not regard calculation as an adequate substitute for judgment, or precision as a synonym for truth;

    This would be nothing less than to reverse the scientific revolution, and the clear, simple, and precise ideas of Descartes.

    Technology as specific solutions to local problems is fine, but there can be no compromise with science as a metaphysic and the basis of society .

    Ah yes, maybe I am overly optimistic :)

    • Replies: @Talha
  100. @Daniel Chieh

    It was least partly helped by the strong correlation early on with religion: alchemy and occultism, which were highly correlated with early European researchers, attributed divine significance to the search for truth. Catholicism also developed theologically that reason would demonstrate the value of faith, which served to spur both Mendel and Linnaeus.

    I wouldn’t buy into the idea of a correlation between religion and science beyond the most superficial, especially if you are attempting to claim that it was selected for. It just seems too hand-wavy and vague to me. A just-so story.

    Intelligence clearly runs in families. But I don’t see the same pattern for innovation. It’s far too diffuse – a small and sporadic subcategory of what smart people can occasionally accomplish in the right circumstances.

    Yes, early Western scientists were frequently highly religious. But I think that tells us more about the context of their society – almost all educated people at the time were religious – than it does to any causation. Certainly the early Jewish scientists didn’t need Catholic theology or a focus on the works of alchemy in order to take up science with a vengeance.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    , @Anon
  101. @Ron Unz

    Given Frost’s endless complaints about MSM “censorship,” I think this particular example perfectly illustrates Fred Reed’s analysis of certain unfortunate aspects of the “HBD community”…

    Hypocrisy is hardly unique to those in the HBD community.

  102. Thank you Fred Reed,

    Anyone who analyses an IQ test with find five or so ‘question types’ unevenly distributed within the test.

    1) Very straight forward questions, unambiguous and grammatically simple.
    2) Questions that use more complex grammar forms.
    3) Questions that use red-herrings.
    4) Questions that use apply correct grammar in a convoluted way.
    5) Mystery questions where a vital part is implied but missing, and a good grasp of grammar is needed.

    The actual answers can be rated from simple to difficult and are mixed with the question types. A complex problem might be simply said, a simple problem may be a mystery question.

    The tests themselves are designed to a pattern, but it is decades since I saw the template material.

    What do they actually test> The ability to do puzzles to a small degree (most use fairly simple problems). What they really test is familiarity with educated grammar.

    How to fail an IQ test (that is reach scores below 90):

    1) Be without guile, trust that questions are always posed in the clearest fashion, because deceit is not expected from ‘science’. “If I don’t understand the question I am dumb”.

    2) Speak a dialect that is not standard, where the grammar is simple, but the idiom’s rich.

    3) Be poorly educated, have the formal grammar of a primary school student, anything misleading will confuse.

    4) Not being exposed to great literature, with complex ideas well written and clear, where precision deals with difficult ideas that require careful attention to details of expression.

    5) Seeing yourself as dumb, giving up on tests at the slightest difficultly — a result of too little education and too much testing — intellectual disinvestment which is all to common thanks to bad teaching and badly written textbooks. Testing and education are not compatible tasks.

    6) Not being born into a household that speaks an educated dialect, and sees ‘test-wins’ as the only sign of education.

  103. AaronB says:
    @Pincher Martin

    Well, yes, it cannot be reduced to a single factor, and I am pleased that you introduce complexity into a subject that is often discussed in the most simplistic of terms.

    And one might well ask, what made Europe suddenly develop so consuming an obsession with the manipulation of matter?

    However, desire for power is a human constant, and its overstimulation a constant risk, and as a psychological factor it cannot be overemphasized.

    How much of history, and secular social dynamics, can be explained via this one principle! All of it?

    It may well be true to say that religion and power are man’s two consuming obsessions.

    As for smart fractions and mean high IQ – it is my contention, boldly flying in the face of all recieved wisdom – that you are putting the cart before the horse.

    High mean IQ (a measure of abilities suitable to a modern environment), I contend, is the result of a desire for modernity, and is not a prerequisite of modernity.

    In short, ability cannot be abstracted from motivation. It is in some part a function of motivation.

    Man becomes what he will.

    Yes, I know how quaint this may sound to one steeped in modernity, but it has explanatory power.

    The case of Ireland is instructive in this regard, but the subject is vast, and I can do no more than be suggestive.

    Observers, not the least of which Ron Unz, have noted that when it comes to modernization and IQ, the two seem strangely resistant to being analyzed into cause and effect.

    As for a culture hospitable to innovation – yes, but all that is needed is a sufficient fraction of the elites to be sympathetic to innovation.

    But this is merely a restatement of the basic problem – why did a significant fraction of the Western elite break with all tradition and come to regard the manipulation of matter as the single thing most conducive to human welfare, to the utter neglect, indeed detriment, of man’s psycho-emotional organism, when the latter seems so much more significant as a factor in human happiness and satisfaction?

    Hard questions to ponder, indeed.

    • Replies: @Pincher Martin
  104. @Pincher Martin

    Yes, early Western scientists were frequently highly religious. But I think that tells us more about the context of their society – almost all educated people at the time were religious – than it does to any causation.

    I disagree, though we might mean religion in a different way. You mentioned motivation and society permitting an alcove for knowledge workers to exist in – in many ways, such forms of occultism, etc allowed such behavior to become high status, if only within certain circles. Motivation is heavily guided by status-seeking behavior, and its not a surprise that Newton was deeply into occultism, or that the occultist John Dee was also a scientist.

    In the context of larger society, these early scientists were not exactly famous or high status, but the existence of subgroups allowed them to present discoveries which had no present use as something worthwhile to their peers. Alchemy in particular would specifically encourage experimentation and while it produced few discoveries of its own(the distillation process being the main one), it preserved a vast quantity of Greek knowledge and the methodology of practical Arabic experimentation which returned to Europe in the 1100s(Robert of Chester’s translation of Book of the Composition of Alchemy). Incidentally, Islamic science around the same time was largely nuked by al-Ghazali’s Incoherence of the Philosophers to declare that facts were not facts and reason was pointless since everything was only the will of Allah.

    Essentially, I do think that the conditions allowed for innovators and experimenters to be rewarded and to exist, in a world that was often otherwise hostile to experimentation due to generalized superstition. And these conditions wouldn’t be possible without the specific muted types of religion that was present in Europe.

    • Replies: @Pincher Martin
    , @Talha
  105. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Pincher Martin

    Except there weren’t any Jewish scientists until the European academy and a regularized methodology of science already existed. And you won’t find those Jewish scientists going on to become rabbis– they had to ditch a lot of their old culture first. Secular culture is post-science, so it can do science; the question is what kind of framework it took to get there in the first place. You see this dynamic with Muslim science– it starts out promising but then their culture changes and chokes it off.

    • Replies: @Pincher Martin
  106. Talha says:
    @AaronB

    Hey AaronB,

    I really see these trends as an extreme reaction to the crazy nonsense around us – like this:

    https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/11/22/style/his-eye-makeup-is-way-better-than-yours.html

    Society seems to be dysfunctional at many levels. People are grasping for meaning, something to latch onto for stability, but it seems they want to rush to the source of the symptoms for the cure. An addict in denial?

    The positive part is that, yes – I see a lot of this kind of thing in newspapers or in media outlets which seem to be enamored by that which sells the most clicks, but normal, everyday people go about being generally kind and courteous to each other and though attitudes are changing, many people are still quite “normal”.

    Technology as specific solutions to local problems is fine, but there can be no compromise with science as a metaphysic and the basis of society.

    This is what Postman said about being careful to make the jump from a tool-using culture to one that is enamored by and is wholly defined by the tools themselves – the technopoly.

    As you said…

    it is an observed fact of history that groups rise and fall

    And as I mentioned in another post…
    “It is God’s way that He lowers whatever raises itself in the world.” – reported in Bukhari

    Everyone thinks they are the exception – they always have.

    Once you unplug from making the material the only yardstick by which you measure personal or societal success, it is very, very liberating. I think you mentioned you went through this. In our tradition, a baseline renunciation of the world (which was at least in the heart and mind, even if not followed through completely in action) was considered the entry point to experience any spiritual progress.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  107. LauraMR says:
    @Anonymous

    Now choose other populations as A and B. Rinse, repeat. I am aware that additional information will destroy your necessity for extremes with which to justify your mental problems but, hey, it will also take you a step closer to reality.

    You might also want to look into, for example, the role of nutrition in IQ.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  108. FKA Max says: • Website
    @Daniel Chieh

    The banning of polygamy and consanguinity was probably the biggest factor/selector:

    Actually, utu, this is one of the few areas where this “kook” gives the Vatican/Rome high marks and praise. The Vatican/Rome is mainly responsible for the lower frequency/prevalence of low-activity MAOA in Europeans, South Americans, etc., in my opinion. [...] But otherwise Catholicism is much more eugenic and peaceful than Islam, since it forbids polygamy and cousin marriage.

    http://www.unz.com/jthompson/the-worlds-iq-86/#comment-2058848

    If you have a male, low-activity MAOA carrier who is (deservedly or not) very wealthy due to taking lots of risks and aggressive business practices, etc.
    [...]
    And in a Western Catholic/Christian cultural framework he can only practice monogamy and have one wife (at a time), whereas in Islamic culture, etc. he can practice polygamy [and] have many wives (e.g. harems) at the same time, who do you think will have more offspring?

    Of course, there is serial monogamy which can be and is practiced by Westerners (more frequently by Protestants and the religiously unaffiliated than by Catholics, probably), but this still keeps the number of offspring one single, very wealthy and sexually active man can have to a fairly limited number of children.

    http://www.unz.com/jthompson/the-worlds-iq-86/#comment-2059325

    Jewish polygamy clashed with Roman monogamy at the time of the early church

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polygamy_in_Christianity#Early_Church_period

    “Some of the radical Anabaptists undertook to introduce polygamy, appealing to the patriarchal order of society in justification of their position. Even among Luther’s followers and associates there was no little uncertainty about the matter, as was not altogether surprising when the old order of things was undergoing revision at so many points, including the marriage of monks, priests, and near relatives. But Luther himself was unalterably opposed to any such revolution. Monogamy he considered, under ordinary circumstances, alone tolerable in a Christian community, and held that no Christian ruler has any moral right to legalize polygamy. At the same time, finding no explicit prohibition in the Bible, he believed exceptions might be allowed in certain extreme cases such as are now generally recognized in Protestant countries as justifying divorce.”[42]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polygamy_in_Christianity#Reformation_period

    1 in 200 Men Direct Descendants of Genghis Khan [likely a low-activity MAO-A carrier]

    Over the past 200 years the pendulum has started to shift back, thanks to the spread of Western values and normative monogamy, which dampens the potential unequal reproductive outcomes between the rich and the poor.

    http://www.unz.com/gnxp/1-in-200-men-direct-descendants-of-genghis-khan/

    Comment from the “Unsilenced Science” blog:

    “Anonymous said…

    The MAOA-2R allele has an occurrence of about 15.6% in the arab population, as opposed to .1% to .5% in Europeans (that’s DOT ONE to DOT FIVE). (American negros: 4.7% to 5.5%) Which is in line with the current explosion of violence in Germany. The stereotype of the meek german being the opposite of the hot-headed arab seems to hold true (Stereotype Accuray). More on this in german anthropologist Andreas Vonderach’s “Völkerpsychologie” (germany only).

    Study:
    Association study between the dopamine-related candidate gene polymorphisms and ADHD among Saudi Arabia population via PCR technique

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23076524

    Table 1 Count and allele frequencies for MOA-A in ADHD and control group (100 %)

    Source: https://www.researchgate.net/figure/232280816_tbl1_Table-1-Count-and-allele-frequencies-for-MOA-A-in-ADHD-and-control-group-100

  109. AaronB says:
    @Talha

    but it seems they want to rush to the source of the symptoms for the cure. An addict in denial?

    Perfectly put. An alchoholic turns to the bottle for relief, the very thing that is killing him.

    That’s the crux – because the poison that kills also provides relief, that’s a fact. The alchoholic is not wrong, in the short term.

    Only insight can free us from this bondage, but insight must be cultivated.

    In many traditions, wisdom is the queen of the virtues – I never understood this. Isn’t moral practice far more essential?

    But without insight into the nature of reality, into the nature of suffering, into the emptiness of the material world – without wisdom – we cannot take the first steps towards spiritual practice.

    You are right, things seem increasingly dire, but ordinary life is not as affected as one might expect, thank God.

    And surely the way out is through – the increasing frivolity, the growing absurdity, of our culture, reveals a striking fact – the West no longer seriously pursues power.

    In this vein, the collapse of standards in science, the increasingly shoddy work being produced, strikes me as a cause for hope.

    Hedonism and frivolity seem to me less of a threat to the spiritual life than the pursuit of power.

    I know this sounds paradoxical, but perhaps worth considering.

    This is what Postman said about being careful to make the jump from a tool-using culture to one that is enamored by and is wholly defined by the tools themselves – the technopoly.

    Ah, so then I misunderstood, and I am in complete agreement with him. A truly wise man.

    And as I mentioned in another post…
    “It is God’s way that He lowers whatever raises itself in the world.” – reported in Bukhari
    Everyone thinks they are the exception – they always have.

    A great quote. So true, everyone really does think they are the exception, don’t they.

    I know Jews who can’t comprehend that their current status is a contingent and fragile thing, and doomed to go the way of all empires.

    Modern people, strangely, cannot think dynamically – they can only conceive of static, timeless units. I do not know why this should be – maybe a side-product of the scientific desire to discover static, timeless laws?

    Witness the HBD attempt to project back in time and into eternity the patterns of today. Jews were always so and so. Whites were always so and so. Asians were always so and so. Muslims were always so and so.

    And these patterns will forever hold, like the laws of physics. Ironically, there is even evidence that physical constants like gravity are subject to change :)

    Once you unplug from making the material the only yardstick by which you measure personal or societal success, it is very, very liberating. I think you mentioned you went through this.

    Yes, this is the thing. But it can’t be theoretical, it has to be an experience. Which is why I think only a catastrophe can jolt us from our complacency.

    I was lucky to have several mini-catastrophes in my life that awakened me from a life of dull complacency.

    In our tradition, a baseline renunciation of the world (which was at least in the heart and mind, even if not followed through completely in action) was considered the entry point to experience any spiritual progress.

    Words of truth and deep wisdom indeed, thank you – knowledge is a function of character, and certain things you can only “know” after you have modified your character and loosened the bonds of passion.

    What a world of bliss the modern man does not even suspect exists beyond the bondage of passion!

    Thanks, Talha.

    • Agree: Daniel Chieh
    • Replies: @Talha
  110. KenH says:
    @Anonymous

    Nick Holonyack of General Electric is credited with inventing and pioneering light emitting diode (LED) technology in 1962.

    https://www.thoughtco.com/led-light-emitting-diode-1992081

    Other white Westerners furthered the technology which later culminated in the invention of blue LED by the Japanese which probably would not have been possible without the works of Nick Holonyack and the other men cited in the article.

  111. pyrrhus says:

    The wonders of Mexico, and other third world cesspits, never end. Latest via LA Times…http://www.latimes.com/projects/la-me-mexico-housing/

  112. Talha says:
    @AaronB

    Hey AaronB,

    beyond the bondage of passion

    The real tragedy here is that post-modern man has no idea what passion really means.

    “Do not dare leave this abode without tasting the sweetness of His love.” – Imam Ibn Ata Illah (ra)

    • Replies: @AaronB
  113. @Daniel Chieh

    I disagree, though we might mean religion in a different way. You mentioned motivation and society permitting an alcove for knowledge workers to exist in – in many ways, such forms of occultism, etc allowed such behavior to become high status, if only within certain circles. Motivation is heavily guided by status-seeking behavior, and its not a surprise that Newton was deeply into occultism, or that the occultist John Dee was also a scientist.

    But there’s no evidence that innovation is passed on genetically.

    Intelligence? Yes. Innovation? No.

    So the motivation I mentioned earlier was purely individual. A few highly intelligent individuals, for reasons which aren’t quite clear, are highly motivated to explore and tinker in ways which benefit the rest of society.

    A society merely has to be accommodating enough to allow these innovative individuals to flourish. That doesn’t mean society has to focus on them in any way. It doesn’t have to give them millions of dollars or Nobel prizes. It merely has to give them the space to do what they’re already inclined to do.

    The rise of science, if it was to happen at all, had to take place in ignorance and darkness. But I would avoid the temptation to believe that the darkness had anything to do with its rise.

    • Replies: @Neil Templeton
  114. @Anon

    Except there weren’t any Jewish scientists until the European academy and a regularized methodology of science already existed.

    But Daniel Chieh claimed this innovation arose through an evolutionary process in some Western societies, through a gene/culture interaction.

    If true (and I don’t believe it is), then I would expect other groups who were not part of this gene/culture evolution to not be able to become a successful part of that tradition. At least not immediately. Jews show that’s not the case. They took to science immediately, as soon as the social barriers – both imposed by others and self-imposed – came down.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @FKA Max
  115. @AaronB

    As for smart fractions and mean high IQ – it is my contention, boldly flying in the face of all recieved wisdom – that you are putting the cart before the horse.

    High mean IQ (a measure of abilities suitable to a modern environment), I contend, is the result of a desire for modernity, and is not a prerequisite of modernity.

    I think the evidence that the rankings of mean continental population IQ are pretty much fixed is too strong to ignore. What’s more, the most successful societies have higher mean IQs.

    I think you’re committing the Fallacy of Composition. You’ve mistaken my opinion about individual inventors and scientists, in which I claim it’s very hard to predict which smart people will be innovative, with their societies as a whole, in which it’s pretty easy to understand which countries and large groups of people in those countries, will be successful.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @Daniel Chieh
  116. @Truth

    If Blacks are the real Jews, then who are the real Cucks? I’m getting a little confused here…

  117. Some form of written language have been found from almost all civilizations outside of Sub Saharan Africa since the Egyptian hieroglyphics in 2690 BC, nearly 4,700 years ago. Written, older form of many languages like Old Chinese, Latin, Hebrew, Phoenician, Tamil, Sanskrit, were discovered in the BC era.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_languages_by_first_written_accounts

    The oldest continuous written form of language that exists today is probably Chinese, which was discovered in 1,200 BC. Hebrew came in 10th century BC, Latin in 7th century BC, Sanskrit in 1st century BC. All other written languages used today such as Arabic, English, German were first found after 500 AD.

    The first written Mayan language was discovered in 292 AD, comparatively late.

    The reason languages like the Egyptian Hieroglyphics and Mayan scripts died out is because very few people knew those languages. They were mainly known by the handful of scribes, who were probably the top 1% in IQ, the outliers. 99% of people in those civilizations did not have the capability to read and write, that’s why those languages died out, i.e. low average IQ.

    Meanwhile, languages like Chinese, Hebrew, Latin lived on because a much larger number of people had the capability to read and write, i.e. much higher average IQ.

    As such it is quite misleading to say that an IQ of 83 is all it takes for humans to come up with writing. The scribes who came up with the ancient writings were probably the outliers with IQ of 100 or something. The reason the language died out is precisely because the average IQ is only 83, which is probably still far higher than way back when nutrition wasn’t as good.

  118. @Pincher Martin

    We can’t just have these guys set loose a tinkerin’ without control. Who knows what they might find.

  119. Talha says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    Hey Daniel Chieh,

    Largely agree with what you are outlining here. Just a minor quibble about Imam Ghazali (ra). Unfortunately, too many Orientalists (and modernist Muslims) have wanted an easy explanation for the reason why the Muslim world lost out in science. Many different factors have been forwarded; 1) Imam Ghazali (ra), 2) Crusades, 3) Mongols, etc. but none of them quite do the trick, especially in light of the more recent evidence we have on the subject.
    “Those who hold Ghazali repsonsible for the age of decline, they will have to explain the producton of tens of scientists, almmost in every discipline, who continued to produce scinetific texts that were in many ways superior to the texts that were produced before the time of Ghazali. In the case of astronomy, one cannot even compare the sophistication of the post-Ghazali texts with the pre-Ghazali ones for the former were in fact far superior both in theoretical mathematical sophistication, as was demonstrated by Khafri, as well as in blending observational astronomy with theoretical astronomy, as was exhibited by Ibn al-Shatir.”
    Philosophy of Science: The Key Thinkers

    Prof. George Saliba (http://www.columbia.edu/cu/mesaas/faculty/directory/saliba.html) probably one of the foremost experts on the subject has a great lecture in which he describes how Europe, the Islamic world and China were about on par in the 15th century, but soon after Europe pulled away from both of them in the realm of scientific advancement. He mentions that one of the key factors was a development in Europe in which science was no longer just done by thinkers who were supported by patrons for the sake of searching for the truth in the universe, but it became increasingly a for-profit venture in which patrons were investing and which led to the development of concepts such as intellectual patents which would have been incomprehensible in the other two civilizations – well worth the time:

    Also, keep in mind, Imam Ghazali (ra) was not against facts at all. What he was against was; 1) philosophy whose assumptions couldn’t even stand up to its own standards and 2) the interpretation and meaning of the events in the phenomenal world, such as observed causality. He was definitely not against reason.

    This is actually a very fair treatment of him (highlights):
    ” With al-Ghazâlî begins the successful introduction of Aristotelianism or rather Avicennism into Muslim theology….and this has contributed to the erroneous assumption that he opposed Aristotelianism and rejected its teachings. His response to falsafa was far more complex and allowed him to adopt many of its teachings….Al-Ghazâlî’s rule for reconciling apparent conflicts between reason and the literal meaning of revelation was widely accepted by almost all later Muslim theologians, particularly those with rationalist tendencies.”

    https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/al-ghazali/

    One must keep in mind that Imam Ghazali (ra) and the Ashari position he championed had legitimate challengers in the age of Newtonian physics and before, but after the atom was split open and the Copenhagen Interpretation introduced, we are simply no longer in a world of deterministic causality:
    “But it is also a theory that challenges our imagination. It seems to violate some fundamental principles of classical physics, principles that eventually have become a part of western common sense since the rise of the modern worldview in the Renaissance. The aim of any metaphysical interpretation of quantum mechanics is to account for these violations.”

    https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qm-copenhagen/#ClaPhy

    Interestingly enough, Imam Ghazali (ra) and his defense of the Ashari school’s conclusions in the face of ultra-rationalist thinking is probably one of the only medieval metaphysical outlooks which stood out positively in the post-atomic age (where we observe that the fundamental building blocks of existence behave and exist in way that is more accurately described as probabilistic):
    “The belief that the universe is understandable via logic and reason harkens back to Newton’s mechanical view of the universe and has provided one of the basic underpinnings of science for centuries. Although most people believe that the world is accutately described by this sort of mechanical model, the appropriateness of such a model has been called into question by recent scientific advances, and in particular, by quantum theory. This theory implies that the physical world is actually very different from what a mechanical model would predict…Initially, it might appear unlikely that there would be any significant similarities between the thought of al-Ghazali (eleventh century CE) and the ideas of quantum theory in the twentieth century. Although separated by culture as well as several centuries, many of the same ideas are incorporated into these two bodies of thought. Important similarities a seen in the role of causality in the natural world, the nature of physical objects, and the extent to which the behavior of objects is predictable.”

    https://www.ghazali.org/articles/harding-V10N2-Summer-93.pdf

    Peace.

  120. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @LauraMR

    I am aware that additional information will destroy your necessity for extremes with which to justify your mental problems but, hey, it will also take you a step closer to reality.

    Are you trying to hurt my feelings? Let’s stick to data and logic instead. You said “given any two populations A and B” so I chose Somalia-Norway because that’s the kind of rubber-boat “extreme populations” we’re importing here, in Europe. We’re also bringing in Muslims (81 mean IQ, hostile, will travel) whose chances (in the chart I’ve linked before) of producing 149+ IQ geniuses are 1:472,893. That’s 203 times less than Norway. Just think about it: for every Muslim genius in that rank , Norway will have 203 (assuming the same sample size).

    The least extreme example would be Mexicans (88 IQ) with 1:55,906 so they’ll “only” lag 24 times in the density of those talents vs a 100 IQ country like Norway. That’s gonna make a difference, surely.

    You might also want to look into, for example, the role of nutrition in IQ.

    I did. Fried chicken and watermelon did the trick for me, personally.

  121. No one I know or read talks about “supremacy”. What I and others seem interested in is differences…real, objective differences that lead to different groups of people living differently. IQ is part of the equation, but it isn’t the whole shebang.
    Objectively watching the NBA, one does see a sprinkling of white players, but one would have to be blind to not notice how overwhelmingly black the league has become. One can posit many explanations for why it has become so, but I use Occam’s razor, which leads me to believe that blacks have a natural advantage for the game. If you were to take the best white players and form a team, it would probably be a pretty good team, but that in no way should lead you to conclude that whites are, on average, as good as blacks at this sport. Those whites are just outliers.
    It seems to me that Fred Reed looks at outliers and then tries to extrapolate to the whole. Just as there are good white basketball players, there are high IQ persons of every race. But I would not advocate for building a nation strictly upon IQ any more than I would on basketball ability. Successful nations seem to have higher IQ, but that is not the entirety of the picture. Does Mr. Reed know this?

    • Agree: Pincher Martin
  122. AaronB says:
    @Pincher Martin

    I think the evidence that the rankings of mean continental population IQ are pretty much fixed is too strong to ignore.

    On this thread is provided tables showing dramatic differences within a few generations.

    History, of course, provides decisive, and extensive, refutation.

    But science is the search for timeless laws, and facts must fit the shape of our desire. Truly, the intellect is the servant of the will.

    What’s more, the most successful societies have higher mean IQs.

    I don’t dispute that. That does not address my position, however.

    One weakness of my position is that it does not fit well with the desires of those deeply influenced buy the scientific world view and it’s emotional imperatives – consequently, there is often a curious inability to “understand” my position.

    II think you’re committing the Fallacy of Composition.

    We were discussing why some societies have innovative people – you singled out curiosity – motivation – as a key factor. Bravo, I could not have done better myself.

    I don’t think we were having a discussion about which societies are successful, or will continue to be in the near future, as those facts are not in dispute.

  123. AaronB says:
    @Talha

    Of course, Talha.

    By passion I mean that which binds us to to ego and material things, and turns our gaze away from God, the Absolute.

    • Replies: @Talha
  124. AaronB says:
    @Pincher Martin

    Jews have a significant amount of European blood. On the mothers side they are as much as 90% European genetically.

    Nevertheless, Jewish innovation does have a different character than white European innovation, likely because Jews are motivated primarily by desire for social power, and whites by power over the physical world.

    There are not many excellent Jewish engineering firms similar to BMW.

    Since all innovation is motivated by the desire for some kind of power, one would expect Asian innovation to have its own distinct flavor, however subtle.

    So far, Asian innovation seems similar to the white desire for power over the physical world, yet subtly different.

    Historically, Asian motivations stems from a desire to protect their lands from foreign aggression, and not from a desire for power itself.

    This is a limited aim, and may explain the somewhat narrow scope of Asian innovation up till now – excellence within narrowly defined limits.

    As insular peoples, the tactics and mentality needed for social power were neglected by Asians, unlike Jews, for whom these tactics were everything, and who consequently refined them to a very high degree.

    What worries me is that we may be witnessing a shift in Asian motivation towards a desire for power for its own sake – as is evident, perhaps, in the case of China.

    If this is so, then we can expect a dramatic shift on the pattern of Asian innovation.

    But it is too soon to tell.

  125. @Anon

    Nope, I didn’t know that. Wait, do you mean the letters stand for terminology meaning Alternating Current and Direct Current, or for before the year of Christ and after?

    I guess any calendar at all would work for Fred Reed now, since he’s retired and living the good easy-going ex-pat life. It’s nice to be able to just watch the shit-show from afar (for now), but Mr. Reed never comes up with any solutions to the problems he writes about. That’s OK, he’s the writer, I’m just a lowly blogger. I think he’s an ass, though, for criticizing the guys that do try to come up with solutions.

    • Replies: @Anon
  126. Talha says:
    @AaronB

    You’re talking some very serious Sufi stuff there, bro – ;)

    May you be with the One you love.

    Peace.

  127. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    ante Cristo/despues de Cristo, though I think AD is more common than DC. Alternating current is CA, corriente alterna. The band is probably popular in at least some Spanish-speaking countries too.

  128. @Pincher Martin

    At any rate, I would like to thank you all for an interesting and enlightening conversation in a thread which could have very easily gone otherwise. I do think that I learned something and its for such perspectives that I return to Unz for.

    • Agree: Talha, AaronB
  129. Itz very difficult to find out about IQ scores but SAT and ACT test scores are readily available since since in some states all students have to take these tests except of course the mentally retarded.
    For instance in Chicago a public school has won a state football championship. It was stated that all the seniors were accepted to college. When I checked the average ACT test score it was around 15. Now I realize that the ACT is more of an achievement test than an IQ test but still!
    I read awhile ago in some underground newspaper that in some of the Chicago public high schools the valedictorians manage a score of only around 20 ACT.
    I think I’ll re-watch “Idiocracy the movie” just to get a glimpse of the future.

  130. FKA Max says: • Website
    @Pincher Martin

    I believe Mr. Chieh is correct.

    I have a hypothesis, which is as follows:

    I have argued before, that this creativity and genius (and also pathological altruism/idealism) common in Whites (Faustian Spirit) is attributable to light eye pigmentation (which suppresses the secretion of melatonin, and is not very common in Asians, thus their lack of creativity/gen[iu]ses) plus a high IQ [...] This could be the reason for the decline in human accomplishment; a lower number, per capita, of blue-eyed persons living on planet Earthhttp://www.unz.com/jthompson/scrabbling-for-excellence/#comment-1911398

    Distribution of light hair and eyes in Europe

    The first two maps have been taken from eupedia, which has colourized the maps contained in a paper by Peter Frost (2006), which in Frost’s words, were “reproduced from an anthropology textbook (Beals & Hoijer 1965, pp. 213-214). Beals and Hoijer, in turn, cite a textbook by another anthropologist, Frederick Hulse (1963: p. 328). Unfortunately, Hulse does not indicate the provenance of his data. I suspect he was using data from military recruits, with a lot of interpolation. Or perhaps he was using even earlier maps.”

    A world map of predicted eye colour based on genetic variants, from IrisPlex: A sensitive DNA tool for accurate prediction of blue and brown eye colour in the absence of ancestry information (2011)

    Source: https://unsafeharbour.wordpress.com/2012/02/19/distribution-of-light-hair-and-eyes-in-europe/

    Ashkenazi Jews have a substantial number of Nordic genes, captured from Nordics during the Jews’ stay in Aryan society. Right across Europe, and also here in the United Sates, it is common to see successful Ashkenazi Jew with fair hair and blue eyes, the George Soros type.
    [...]
    Merton thesis

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merton_thesis

    https://www.unz.com/jpetras/judeo-centrism-myths-and-mania/#comment-1846450

    Religious Competition and Reallocation:
    The Political Economy of Secularization in the Protestant Reformation

    http://www.jeremiahdittmar.com/files/RRR_20170919.pdf Cantoni et al. (2017)

    Our findings indicate that the Reformation played an important causal role in the secularization of the West.

    https://www.unz.com/article/libertarianism-the-alt-right-and-antifa/#comment-2052485

    • Replies: @Anon
    , @Daniel Chieh
  131. edNels says:

    Ya rigtig.

    [...results are doctored…
In general these measurements have been holed through by pisa studies and independent studies altogether. Categorizing a population on basis of such fraud, is right in the tracks of the Nazi ideology and belief.

    Dumb them down in compulsory school system, a Prussian idea.

    To cap off the plan, the last generation in line, and their supporting families, to be induced to enter into debt and shut the door on em! Forget ”subprime” RE Mortagage, think about the education industry as scam that it is, there is an interesting Youtube video: Camille Paglia / Jordan B. Peterson interview.

    IQ is a fiction to offer a reason for… discrimination. Hierarchical branding and separation of the rich achievers, haves, and screw the peeps!

    But so many want to think they can be in the upper realms, on the right side of Bell Curve, but that isn’t going to be enough Charlie.

  132. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @FKA Max

    The heavyweight intellectual Jews I can think of off the top of my head (Einstein, Richard Feynman, Akiba Rubinstein, Murray Gell-Mann, Sammy Reshevsky, John von Neumann) seem to be overwhelmingly brown-eyed.

    On the other hand Laszlo Biro seems to have eyes of some light shade or other. Perhaps the subject needs further study.

  133. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @dearieme

    Unless they had their transportation paid for by the Queen, of course.

  134. @FKA Max

    I have argued before, that this creativity and genius (and also pathological altruism/idealism) common in Whites (Faustian Spirit) is attributable to light eye pigmentation (which suppresses the secretion of melatonin, and is not very common in Asians, thus their lack of creativity/gen[iu]ses) plus a high IQ

    That causation from “creativity” to “blue-eyed” is nonsensical, and should be evident from the start. Its very possible that creativity has hereditary influences since it does appear to be related to aspects of the brain and in a somewhat counterintuitive way: increased volume in the right thalamus is negatively correlated with divergent thinking while increased volume in the left frontal pole appears to be correlated with increased divergent thinking.

    What’s interesting is that there may actually be an inverse correlation between focus and creativity: there was a Tokyo study which was able to successfully increase the working memory of its participants, who then proceeded to do worse on metrics for creativity. This lends support to the Oakley model of the brain operating in two major modes: one for focus and one diffuse and this has support from FMRI studies. It may be that one system eventually begins to operate at the detriment of the other.

    At any rate, to the extent that such differences are cultural, and how much is heritable is debatable, especially since the brain is by nature rather fluid and parts of it are very capable of change depending on exposure and training.

    A cognitive stimulation (20 sessions) method was used in the present study to train subjects and to explore the neuroplasticity induced by training. The behavioral results revealed that both the originality and the fluency of divergent thinking were significantly improved by training. Furthermore, functional changes induced by training were observed in the dorsal anterior cingulate cortex (dACC), dorsal lateral prefrontal cortex (DLPFC), and posterior brain regions. Moreover, the gray matter volume (GMV) was significantly increased in the dACC after divergent thinking training. These results suggest that the enhancement of creativity may rely not only on the posterior brain regions that are related to the fundamental cognitive processes of creativity (e.g., semantic processing, generating novel associations), but also on areas that are involved in top-down cognitive control, such as the dACC and DLPFC.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @FKA Max
  135. Talha says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    That causation from “creativity” to “blue-eyed” is nonsensical, and should be evident from the start.

    Serious problems with altruism being linked too. Europeans seem pretty mellow and chill people now, but they destroyed each other’s cities with a passion just a few decades ago. They were also pretty damn brutal when it came to colonization (we literally have a photographic [meaning it is fairly recent] history – too recent for some genetic adaptation):

    https://www.google.com/search?q=french+rape+algeria&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjT6cql1-TXAhUQ92MKHZ-FDIYQ_AUIDCgD&biw=1344&bih=774#imgrc=_

    https://www.google.com/search?biw=1344&bih=774&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=HCEfWoTsNsiqjwOMloLICg&q=belgian+congo+atrocities&oq=belgium+congo&gs_l=psy-ab.1.2.0i10k1l10.21562.21800.0.23988.2.2.0.0.0.0.125.243.0j2.2.0&#8230;.0…1c.1.64.psy-ab..0.2.242…0i13k1.0.Y3ou4k3ImuI

    https://www.google.com/search?biw=1344&bih=774&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=NSEfWqv9L8qyjwPFkZqoDA&q=british+boer+concentration+camps&oq=british+boer&gs_l=psy-ab.3.6.0l2j0i8i30k1l4j0i24k1l4.706569.710079.0.713359.14.11.1.2.2.0.127.1320.0j11.11.0&#8230;.0…1c.1.64.psy-ab..0.13.1214…0i67k1.0._v8dciHwaGM

    Also…Vikings…’nuff said.

    Peace.

    • Agree: AaronB
    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @Anon
  136. AaronB says:
    @Talha

    It’s that weird static thinking again.

    We must discover the Cosmological Constant of White People, the unchanging “essence” of whites, that has ever been, and will always be.

    The weird thing is that it makes them literally not “see” facts. One page from any history of Europe should be enough – but no, somehow.

    The even weirder thing is, that if they are right, then whites cannot change.

    Somehow, they combine a belief in unchanging essences with a belief in change.

    If the unchanging essence of white people is pathological altruism, then in a globalized world, whites are fated to be powerless doormats.

    Partly, it is physics-envy. Our analysis of white people, if it is to have any prestige, must have unchanging laws, because physics has them.

    For the rest, it is a set of poorly integrated beliefs, that do not yield a coherent view, but nevertheless provide emotional relief.

    Truly, the intellect is the servant of the will.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @Daniel Chieh
  137. KenH says:

    I love it when Fred and others try to tell us that IQ is almost meaningless on the one hand, then on the other they cockily cite the higher IQ averages of north Asian nations and say, “take that you uppity white race realists and gas station louts” even though both groups freely acknowledged this fact long ago. But there’s plenty of data in The Bell Curve and elsewhere showing that whites have a much higher number of people with IQ’s over 125 and with genius level intelligence evidenced by all the groundbreaking discoveries that have come from Western nations the last 150 years or more.

    We have no way of knowing what the IQ was of early Meso Americans was but logic would dictate that the IQ of its leadership strata exceeded 83. Whatever genius existed was eventually lost in wars, plagues and disease outbreaks no different than other societies around the world that have risen and and fallen. It’s hard to classify Meso Americans as a civilization since they had no written language.

    IQ has a place in the race debate and is especially important to explain why some groups succeed in America while others fail and to counter leftist claims of “racism”, institutional or other, every time one of their pet groups struggle to achieve parity with whites and Asians.

    White majorities in Western nations are failing to reproduce themselves so our cognitive advantage over the rest of the world may be drawing to a close and the torch of civilization and technological advancement could pass to North Asians. But then, Japan is aging and dying off, too, but they’ll survive in some form since they aren’t mass importing the third world and encouraging their women to breed with racial aliens.

  138. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Talha

    Altruism can be group-directed, so the Vikings would fit. That said, yeah, that kind of correlation is silly.

    • Replies: @Talha
  139. Talha says:
    @AaronB

    Hey AaronB,

    Cosmological Constant of White People

    Yes – the CCWP – we need to be able to plug it in as a variable into any equation. Like the Jewish Powers of Persuasion (POP) – that sometimes failed to help them out in a pogrom. Bah! Details!

    whites are fated to be powerless doormats

    Yeah – why would one want to even assume this – it’s like self-reinforcing. It’s funny, if you look at some of the conversations I’ve had with people on these forums – I’m the guy telling them they’ll be OK – they aren’t going anywhere, God will take care of them like He always has. It’s like they don’t want to believe it. I don’t get it!

    Now, the Whites that come out of the crucible on the other side may not act like those who don’t make it out of the “great self-imposed culling”, but is that a surprise? Some Muslims won’t make it either:

    physics-envy

    LOL! By jove – you’ve topped Freud! Love it!

    Peace.

  140. Talha says:
    @Anon

    I think the criticism was regarding the pathological kind, which (I assume) means inclusion of the outer group to the detriment of your own. And the Vikings were fine among themselves and had laws about regulating behavior and such among each other – but that absolutely did not translate to “Whites” in general. They were slave-raiding all up and down the European coastlines and rivers – they liked monasteries if I remember; remote, not well guarded, some of the monks were already educated so they made good administrative eunuchs (high value in Byzantium and the Abbasid Caliphate), etc. Trading too, let’s give them credit where it’s due – I think their trading eclipsed their slave-raiding as a source of income.

    Peace.

  141. FKA Max says: • Website
    @Daniel Chieh

    That causation from “creativity” to “blue-eyed” is nonsensical, and should be evident from the start.

    Not at all, in my opinion.

    More in-depth research here:

    This one’s two-sided—it should not be taken as an indictment against the darker-eyed individuals amongst us. The facts simply show that there is a clear relationship between eye color and in what areas the person who owns them tends to excel.

    Blue-eyed people have a tendency to exceed expectations in the realm of strategic and self-paced activities. This includes most of what is accepted as academic science. In fact, many renowned scientists—Carl Sagan, Stephen Hawking—have blue eyes. [...] In other words, there’s a little something for everyone. However, in terms of straight-up IQ, baby blues are your best bet for being brilliant.

    http://www.unz.com/jthompson/genetics-of-racial-differences-in-intelligence-updated/#comment-1900725

    Eye Color and its Possible Relation to Behavior
    1977
    Debra L. Hollister

    http://stars.library.ucf.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1342&context=rtd

    [...]
    Trustworthy-Looking Face Meets Brown Eyes
    Kleisner et al. (2013) http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0053285

    But why do blue eyes seem to correlate more strongly in men, than in women, with a more gracile facial structure? It may be that pre-natal exposure to estrogen is over-determined in women, i.e., all women are fully exposed to estrogen before birth regardless of their eye color. In men, the increase in pre-natal exposure would be confined to blue-eyed individuals.
    [...]
    Nevertheless, the blue-eyed phenotype must have provided its bearers with some kind of advantage to offset the loss of perceived trustworthiness.
    [...]
    Also, the blue-eyed phenotype is now abundant in Northern Europe and hence should have some kind of adaptive advantage, most likely one favored by sexual selection [43], [45], that compensates for the loss of perceived trustworthiness.

    Going by my formula, I believe the advantage offsetting the loss of perceived trustworthiness is intelligence/creativity/curiosity, plus a few other advantageous traits

    http://www.unz.com/jthompson/genetics-of-racial-differences-in-intelligence-updated/#comment-1900903

    Blue/light eyes absorb UV light more easily and therefore produce more frontal lobe dopamine:

    Myth or fact: people with light eyes are more sensitive to sunlight

    According to Duke ophthalmologist Anupama Horne, MD, the answer is yes — your baby blues are indeed likely contributing to your squinting and discomfort under bright lights.
    [...]
    Horne explains that photophobia — the term used to describe light sensitivity — typically affects people with light eyes because they have less pigmentation in multiple layers of the eye than those with darker eyes. Because of this, they are unable to block out the effects of harsh lights like sunlight and fluorescent lights.

    https://www.dukehealth.org/blog/myth-or-fact-people-light-eyes-are-more-sensitive-sunlight

    What happens in the human eye and frontal lobes can have far reaching effects for the human organism because of how dopamine drives our biology. Dopamine levels separate us from the rest of the primate tree. There is another thing that separates us from our primate cousins, our frontal lobes. Chimps do not have fully developed frontal lobes and therefore, they do not have as much dopamine present in their brains. As such, chimps need to sleep more than humans do. On average they sleep 12 hours a day. Humans only need 7.5 to 8.5 hours a sleep to regenerate. The reason for this is because our eyes have become dopamine factories for our frontal lobes because they have evolved a unique way to use UV light and tyrosine to make more dopamine. This is how dopamine relates to time. The more dopamine we have the less sleep we need to regenerate. The less we have the more sleep we need.

    https://www.jackkruse.com/time-6-time-and-dopamine/

    In contrast, other studies have found that minorities are at lower risk of insomnia. A survey of over 17,000 adults revealed that Whites reported more trouble falling asleep and staying asleep than did Blacks and Hispanics.(51) Similar findings were reported in a diary study examining self-reported chronic insomnia in 769 adults.(52)

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3824366/ Kingsbury et al. (2013)

    http://www.unz.com/jthompson/isteve-metrics/#comment-1830062

    Dopamine is the fuel that keeps people motivated to persevere and achieve a goal. You have the power to increase your production of dopamine by changing your attitude and behavior. Scientists have identified higher levels of dopamine — also known as the “reward molecule” — as being linked to forming lifelong habits, such as perseverance.

    https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-athletes-way/201112/the-neuroscience-perseverance

    Cerebral blood flow during rest is associated with IQ and creativity.

    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0025532

    Effects of dopamine infusion on cerebral blood flow, brain cell membrane function and energy metabolism in experimental Escherichia coli meningitis in the newborn piglet.

    Cerebral blood flow, measured at the end of the experiment using fluorescent microspheres, was significantly increased by dopamine infusion.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14676446

    The Catechol-O-Methyltransferase Val158Met Polymorphism Modulates Organization of Regional Cerebral Blood Flow Response to Working Memory in Adults

    This means that those who are homozygous for the Val allele have increased COMT enzyme activity and therefore less dopamine availability; those who are homozygous for the Met allele have decreased COMT enzyme activity and higher levels of dopamine; and those who are heterozygous (Val/Met carriers) have COMT enzyme activity that lies somewhere between their homozygous counterparts (Egan et al,. 2001; Raz, Dahle, Rodrigue, Kennedy, & Land, 2009).

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3818354/

    Northern Europeans have the highest frequency of blue/light eyes and of the COMT Met allele in their populations which translates into higher levels of frontal lobe dopamine, which is a proxy for increased cerebral blood flow during rest, which in turn is a proxy for intelligence and creativity (see above study). If East Asians were not such hard-working students http://www.unz.com/freed/fun-with-iq-deep-thought/#comment-2095195 and were not performing so well on standardized IQ tests due to their studying habits than the global correlation between IQ and population COMT Met allele frequencies would be even higher, in my opinion:

    Correlation of the COMT Val158Met Polymorphism with Latitude and a Hunter-Gather Lifestyle Suggests Culture–Gene Coevolution and Selective Pressure on Cognition Genes Due to Climate

    Davide Piffer, Anthropological Science, July 31, 2013

    Thus, the global correlation between IQ and Met allele frequency is r = 0.579 and highly statistically significant (n = 38; P < 0.001). This supports the prediction that populations with higher Met allele frequency have higher IQ, similarly to the correlation observed at the individual level.

    https://www.amren.com/news/2014/01/correlation-of-the-comt-val158met-polymorphism-with-latitude-and-a-hunter-gather-lifestyle-suggests-culture-gene-coevolution-and-selective-pressure-on-cognition-genes-due-to-climate/

  142. @AaronB

    Yes, the general notion of essentialism is bewildering given the fundamental evidence that we have of pretty constant change.

  143. FKA Max says: • Website
    @FKA Max

    Addendum:

    Effect of COMT Val108/158 Met genotype on frontal lobe function and risk for schizophrenia.

    Consistent with other evidence that dopamine enhances prefrontal neuronal function, the load of the low-activity Met allele predicted enhanced cognitive performance. We then examined the effect of COMT genotype on prefrontal physiology during a working memory task in three separate subgroups (n = 11-16) assayed with functional MRI. Met allele load consistently predicted a more efficient physiological response in prefrontal cortex. Finally, in a family-based association analysis of 104 trios, we found a significant increase in transmission of the Val allele to the schizophrenic offspring. These data suggest that the COMT Val allele, because it increases prefrontal dopamine catabolism, impairs prefrontal cognition and physiology, and by this mechanism slightly increases risk for schizophrenia.https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11381111/

    Incidence and outcome of schizophrenia in whites, African-Caribbeans and Asians in London.

    One hundred and twenty-three patients passed the screen, of whom 100 were assigned a schizophrenic class by the CATEGO program. Of these, 38 were White, 38 African-Caribbean and 24 Asian. The incidence rate for broad schizophrenia was significantly higher for African-Caribbeans than for Whites. Asians showed a high rate among people age 30 and over, particularly women.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9234457

  144. FKA Max says: • Website
    @FKA Max

    Typo: If East Asians were not such hard-working students http://www.unz.com/freed/fun-with-iq-deep-thought/#comment-2095195 and were not performing so well on standardized IQ tests due to their studying habits *then* the global correlation between IQ and population COMT Met allele frequencies would be even higher, in my opinion

    I came across this curious video:

    Is China A Low IQ Society?

    US Wall Street Journal recently published an article “Will China Go to A Low IQ Society?” It mentions that many Chinese have high IQs as individuals, but the collective IQ of Chinese people is worrying.

    I googled this WSJ article but it does not seem to exist.

    Then I found this article:

    Literary push can save us from low-IQ society

    But this statement is nowhere to be found in Ohmae’s book. It was made up to make a point by people online. Yet, at the same time, it reflects real fears about the level of intellectual curiosity and general literacy in modern China.
    If we look at statistics around literature, it does look as though China is sinking into the “low-IQ society.” In 2010, each person in China read, on average, 4.25 books, less than half the number in developed countries. In Israel, Denmark, and Sweden, the number of books read per capita annually is 40 or 50.
    [...]
    The lack of creativity is China’s great hidden flaw that prevents us from joining the ranks of developed nations. There are many reasons for it, but one clear cause is our lack of reading. Creativity doesn’t grow on trees, but takes hard work, study, and absorbing the works of others.

    It’s not an easy matter to change the public’s reading habits.
    [...]
    More time in education means better reading habits, which China needs to cultivate its potential creativity and move into the ranks of developed nations.

    As long as China doesn’t fall short in education, fears of it becoming a “low IQ society” will remain unrealized.

    http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/662400.shtml

    But according to these numbers the Chinese are among the groups/countries who/which read the most:

    Which countries read the most?

    Source: https://www.statista.com/chart/6125/which-countries-read-the-most/

    Either the Chinese are really, really slow readers since they read on average 8 hours per week, but according to the above article they only read on average 4.25 books per year, or alternatively Chinese books are extremely long, and European books are very short and/or Europeans are speed readers ;-)

    The other, probably more plausible, explanation is that this is simply Chinese Communist Party propaganda to encourage Chinese citizens to read and study even more and harder than they already do.

    It is likely the latter since the above article was published in the Global Times https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Times

    Inside the Global Times, China’s hawkish, belligerent state tabloid

    China’s most belligerent tabloid, the Global Times, is certainly a one-of-a-kind publication. The Chinese- and English-language news outlet is published by the ruling Chinese Communist Party’s (CCP) paramount mouthpiece, the People’s Daily, but it goes much further than China’s typically stodgy state news. The Global Times is best known for its hawkish, insulting editorials—aggressive attacks that get it noticed, and quoted, by foreign media around the world as the “voice” of Beijing, even as the party’s official statements are more circumspect.

    That’s not exactly a mistake, the paper’s longtime editor says.

    The Global Times often reflects what party officials are actually thinking, but can’t come out and say, editor-in-chief Hu Xijin explained during a long interview with Quartz in his drab Beijing office in the People’s Daily compound. As a former army officer and current party member, Hu said, he often hangs out with officials from the foreign ministry and the security department, and they share the same sentiments and values that his paper publishes. “They can’t speak willfully, but I can,” he said.

    https://qz.com/745577/inside-the-global-times-chinas-hawkish-belligerent-state-tabloid/

    Jin Li, professor of education at Brown University https://vivo.brown.edu/display/jili and author of Cultural Foundations of Learning, asserts that Asian parents tend to believe more in nurture than in nature, or in other words, they value effort over ability. – p.149 Beyond the Tiger Mom: East-West Parenting for the Global Age By Maya Thiagarajanhttp://www.unz.com/jthompson/boost-your-iq/#comment-2078716

    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @PandaAtWar
  145. @FKA Max

    Dopamine reinforces a behavior but in itself is more associated with focus rather than intelligence, thus how amphetamine salts operate by increasing dopamine levels and which results in “tunnel vision” as opposed to generalized intelligence. There’s several studies, including this one, which document that the overexcitation of that system actually reduces creativity in both convergent and divergent tasks: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19011838

    Insofar as “hard working” goes, that in itself is a function of dopaminergic systems as it is most closely associated with motivation, but motivation itself is not necessarily linked to creativity(https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=11392855).

    IQ, as the proxy variable as it is, is most heavily associated with the size of the hippocampus ( http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/hipo.20282/abstract). Also, while working memory can be a crude measure for IQ, there are a number of studies where increasing working memory does not have any significant impact on IQ, suggesting that it isn’t exactly a direct relationship(https://link.springer.com/article/10.3758/s13421-015-0548-9). The long history of Jaeggi’s many studies seem to show that while working memory can be improved, there is no consistent increase in the same subjects when tested with Raven matrices.

    Perhaps most revealingly, a study that did cognitive training which showed transfer effects not only to working memory but also to letter span, mathematical and verbal tasks actually showed declined performance in creativity tests.

    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/file?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0023175&type=printable

    This is interesting, because one of the possible mechanisms for creativity to function is that by having a larger working memory, more ideas are “juggled.” But while there isn’t enough research to definitively state one way or another, evidence actually leans against this and seems to show that working memory has a negative relationship with creativity (http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0016986213500069 ).

    Significant differences were found indicating that gifted students with ADHD characteristics had not only poorer working memory but also significantly greater creativity than those gifted students without these characteristics.

    And of course, it should be noted that drugs that are reputed to increase creativity tend to affect the serotonin system which is linked to emotionality, etc. Unfortunately and perhaps unsurprisingly, creativity does seem to be linked with mental illness(https://web.stanford.edu/group/cosign/Sussman.pdf) which often seems to be the serotonin system going overboard in some way, such as in schizophrenia.

    What appears to be used, in part, is a larger diffuse brain network is used for creative insights, and different sections of the brain are used for divergent and convergent thinking tasks. This is Oakley’s diffuse mode and seems to be related to the salience network of the brain(http://www.pnas.org/content/109/12/4690.abstract).

    In summation, larger quantities of dopamine are not enough to be directly connected with IQ metric, although they probably will make someone more focused, addiction-prone, and impulsive.

    • Replies: @FKA Max
  146. FKA Max says: • Website
    @Daniel Chieh

    And of course, it should be noted that drugs that are reputed to increase creativity tend to affect the serotonin system which is linked to emotionality, etc. Unfortunately and perhaps unsurprisingly, creativity does seem to be linked with mental illness(https://web.stanford.edu/group/cosign/Sussman.pdf) which often seems to be the serotonin system going overboard in some way, such as in schizophrenia.

    This is where MAO-A comes into play. High-activity MAO-A breaks down dopamine, serotonin, etc. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monoamine_oxidase_A

    Low-activity MAO-A means higher serotonin and dopamine levels.

    High-activity COMT breaks down dopamine, but not serotonin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catechol-O-methyl_transferase

    Low-activity COMT means higher dopamine levels, but not higher serotonin levels.

    The most ideal combination, in my opinion, for non-insane genius is high-activity MAO-A and low-activity COMT, high dopamine levels but low serotonin levels, European-derived populations have the highest frequency of this combination:

    Northern Europeans are the group with the highest percentage of “worrier pacifists” (35.75%), followed by Ashkenazi Jews (20%), and Africans and East Asians have the lowest percentage (13.5%) of “worrier pacifists” in their populations.

    http://www.unz.com/jthompson/genetics-of-racial-differences-in-intelligence-updated/#comment-1904499

    Insane geniuses have the low-activity MAO-A and low-activity COMT combination, high dopamine levels and high serotonin levels, Ashkenazi Jews have the highest frequency of this combination in their population:

    A large sub-group of the Ashkenazi Jewsish population seems to be really rational and good at assessing risks under pressure, but an equally large sub-group (30%) of the population are “worrier warriors,” who seem to be very irrational and tend to take excessive risks, that they don’t seem to be able properly evaluate/gauge.

    “Worrier warriors” seem to be a relatively underrepresented group among Africans and East Asians (16.5%) and Northern Europeans (19.25%).

    http://www.unz.com/jthompson/genetics-of-racial-differences-in-intelligence-updated/#comment-1904499

    More here:

    I agree, but the difference between these two types is not that one of them carries the “warrior gene” and the other doesn’t, because they both do. The difference between them is rationality or high-activity COMT, in my opinion. Hyper-emotionally aggressive types I classify as “worrier warriors” (who have low-activity COMT) and calculating aggressive types, who keep their “cool” under pressure, I classify as “double warriors”(who have high-activity COMT).
    [...]
    Phil Spector is the prime example of the “worrier warrior” type, in my opinion. He is hyper-emotional/sensitive and/but also highly calculating/ruthless/sociopathic/psychopathic. Being hyper-emotional and sociopathic don’t have to be mutually exclusive, in my opinion.

    http://www.unz.com/jthompson/the-worlds-iq-86/#comment-2059963

    and here:

    Ashkepathy

    This topic of racial differences in inherited personality traits is gonna be the next big frontier in LoveFacts, and it will cause even more hysteria from the equalist crowd than does the topic of IQ when it becomes common knowledge that characteristics like propensity to violence, sociopathy, conscientiousness, trustworthiness, and kindness are NOT equally and randomly distributed among the world’s races of people.

    https://heartiste.wordpress.com/2017/06/19/ashkepathy/

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  147. Your opinion is not really replicated, even on a positive study:

    http://www.biologicalpsychiatryjournal.com/article/S0006-3223(05)00586-X/fulltext

    Letter–Number Sequencing, which requires both storage and manipulation of information, was the only working memory test that showed expected differences among COMT genotypes, with the met/met group showing the best performance and the val/val group the poorest performance….COMT genotypes were not associated with performance on tests measuring simple storage, maintenance of temporal order or updating of information in working memory.

    Which is positive enough to indicate an effect, but fairly weak if it fails three out of four tests for working memory. This is on top of what I’ve established above that working memory does not appear to be as heavily tied to IQ as you seem to believe, and may actually be negatively correlated to metrics for creativity. Indeed, FMRI studies find that parts of the brain used for divergent/convergent thinking to be distinct from the parts of the brain used in focus and this is also distinct from the areas associated with working memory.

    Honestly, most of your speculation is basically specious and has very little to do with the research at all, and its overall silly of you to make statements on races as you did, not only given the continuing research that needs to be done on the behavioral expression from artifacts of brain activity, but also due to pretty overwhelming evidence of neuroplasticity in the brain(here, here, here, here). Indeed, one of the first studies I linked you showed structural differences after creativity training, which also replicated the expected behavioral improvements for creativity.

    Fundamentally it just seems that you have a certain conclusion you want to believe in, and then collect evidence to support it. But this is silly to do, given the overall complexity of the brain, the increasing evidence that various forms of skill aren’t transferable as intelligence and the frequent publication of studies that ultimately fail to replicate.

    • Replies: @FKA Max
  148. FKA Max says: • Website
    @Daniel Chieh

    Thank you very much for your feedback and your opinion, Mr. Chieh.

    You might find the following videos entertaining ;-)

    Turn Captions on for Translation in English/Hebrew

    This short cartoon, titled “Why are the Jews so smart?”, was one of two related cartoons that ran during an episode of the popular Chinese online talk show “Xiao Shuo” (晓说), in which celebrity host Gao Xiaosong, a former judge on “China’s Got Talent” who fell from fame after drinking, driving and causing a massive vehicle pileup http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2011-11/08/content_14059868.htm , discusses various burning issues – ranging from the Korean War to “The Polarization of Black People in America”. This specific episode was dedicated to talking about Jews, and how rich and smart they are. Needless to say, this is not exactly quality TV. However, the nonsense spewed out here is something Israelis and Jews living in China – most Chinese don’t understand the difference between the two – hear all the time.

    Why are the Jews so smart? Chinese TV explains

    Gao Xiaosong https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gao_Xiaosong

    Gao Xiaosong Stole 11 Shots from Me | 高晓松偷了我11个镜头

    Chinese celebrity, musician, director, talkshow host and selfie artist Gao Xiaosong took 11 shots from my video, and put them in his talkshow without giving me credit. What should I do?

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  149. AaronB says:
    @FKA Max

    Asian parents tend to believe more in nurture than in nature, or in other words, they value effort over ability

    This is a Jewish belief as well.

    It is surely noteworthy that Jews and Asians emphasize motivation.

    All “high IQ” groups, it will be found, are hard working and highly motivated, heavily complicating any attempt to separate the two.

    The existence of “high IQ” groups that are lazy and under performing would provide a needed control group, as well as “low IQ” groups that are highly motivated and hard working (another suspiciously absent combination)

    Indeed, IQ scores closely track a groups reputation for hard work and motivation – Jews and Asians, notorious for being highly motivated, incredibly hard workers, at the top. Europeans in the middle, and the “lazy” rest, at the bottom.

    Even within Europe, the hardworking Dutch and Germans have higher IQs than the lazy and fun loving southerners.

    The more I ponder it, the more convincing is the picture that emerges – IQ is as much a measure of motivation as it is of ability.

    At least, the two cannot be separated, and “ability” can be only conceptually isolated – in the real world, ability cannot be isolated and studied separately. It’s “manifestation” is heavily reliant on other psycho-emotional factors.

    And we can only ever study the “manifestation” of ability – we have no access to ability in its “pure state”, before it manifests in the world.

    In short, “pure ability” is a mere concept, and not something that we can ever meet with in the real world.

    Studying “pure ability”, then, seems to rest on a fundamental misconception.

    The belief in “pure ability” seems, however, to have the important social function of validating our elite class.

    Every elite seeks to validate itself using the significant terminology of its time and place.

    The “divine right of kings” comes to mind – where religious terminology is most meaningful, the elite will seek to justify itself using religious terms.

    In modern America, those whose main distinction was an inordinate desire for wealth and power had to establish their legitimacy by claiming some innate virtue that validated their elite status.

    Unsurprisingly, the reign of the “high IQ” coincided with a steep decline in our intellectual standards – a thoroughly expected development if IQ theory was primarily a device to legitimize the elite status of the inordinately acquisitive.

    At the very least, this development must give us pause – as high IQ became the selective principle of our elites, intellectual standards fell into free-fall.

    Something, surely, is amiss.

    Similarly, as Kings cloaked themselves with the mantle of piety, court life fell deeper into decadence.

    Conspicuous, self-declared labels are usually disguises of some kind, meant to cloak baser realities.

    • Replies: @FKA Max
  150. @FKA Max

    Your concession is gracefully accepted.

    • Replies: @FKA Max
  151. AaronB says:

    Whites seem to be the only reasonably high IQ group that emphasizes innate ability over motivation and hard work.

    This belief may be seriously harming whites and holding them back today, and it’s worth examining why it seems so precious to whites, and why they are so unwilling to abandon it.

    “Innate ability” became a popular concept towards the end of the 19th century, and may have been an attempt to “crystallize” the perceived hierarchy of nations at that time.

    European technological development, it was felt, needed an innate, unchanging basis if the specialness of Europeans was to be safeguarded from the claims of others to be essentially equal.

    It must be forever removed from the realm of effort, goal, and motivation and located in the realm of timeless essences, impervious to change, there to exist safe from challenge.

    Europe’s development could not be substantially the result of human desire for power, tirelessly pursued over an extended period of time, but basically amenable to imitation and adoption by others – no, it had to be unique, and permanent, a question of essences, safe from challenge.

    Jews, and Asians obviously had to believe that hard work and motivation could make them equal to whites, and cosequently emphasized these factors, understandably l.

    And yet, it is often the case that the underdog perceives more clearly the realities of a situation, as need sharpens vision, and power tends to blind.

    We see clearly now which position is correct.

    Yet to their own detriment, whites continue to cling to a psychological device developed to provide reassurance, blind to how it’s holding them back.

    The great irony is, that the attempt to “crystallize” white dominance is leading steadily to the loss of that position, faster and more dramatically than necessary.

    A not infrequent proccess noted by Hegel – anything pursued long enough tends to devolve into its opposite.

    An attempt to establish unassailable strength ends up as a source of weakness.

    As might have been expected.

  152. FKA Max says: • Website
    @AaronB

    Great and insightful comments from you as usual, AaronB. Thank you.

    Indeed, IQ scores closely track a groups reputation for hard work and motivation – Jews and Asians, notorious for being highly motivated, incredibly hard workers, at the top. Europeans in the middle, and the “lazy” rest, at the bottom.

    I think in regards to this point it is important to distinguish between “physical” and “mental” laziness, since seeming physical laziness can actually be a sign of higher genetic/physiological intelligence and greater mental activity in some cases, as a way to conserve energy and make time for hard, demanding, energy-intensive mental work and tasks.

    But of course, there are probably many persons who are both mentally and physically lazy at the same time.

    11 Signs That You Are a Genius Without Knowing It

    You do not need to spend so much money on monitored IQ tests to find out if you are a genius. Take a look at these 11 signs that prove you are extraordinarily intelligent.

    Sometimes, there is a thin line between being lazy and being a genius [...]

    You cannot possibly function well without taking a few breaks during the day. Rest is not to be underrated in your case, as it recharges your brain and it gives you more energy to get back to your long list of intellectual activities.

    Even though many of these activities tend to be regarded as traits of a lazy person, think about it twice – studies show that they are actually signs of brilliance.

    https://curiousmindmagazine.com/11-signs-genus-without-knowing/

    Video time-stamped to 2 min 11 sec:

    10 SIGNS YOU’RE ACTUALLY A GENIUS

    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @Santoculto
  153. FKA Max says: • Website
    @Daniel Chieh

    I am glad we were able to de-escalate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De-escalation this discussion/debate, Mr. Chieh. Thank you.

    Graham’s hierarchy of disagreement

    Graham proposed a “disagreement hierarchy” in a 2008 essay “How to Disagree”,[20] putting types of argument into a seven-point hierarchy and observing that “If moving up the disagreement hierarchy makes people less mean, that will make most of them happier.” Graham also suggested that the hierarchy can be thought as a pyramid, as the highest forms of disagreement are rarer.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Graham_(computer_programmer)#Graham%27s_Hierarchy_of_Disagreement

    • Replies: @Talha
  154. Talha says:
    @FKA Max

    Very cool – thanks!!!

    Peace.

  155. @FKA Max

    Asian parents tend to believe more in nurture than in nature, or in other words, they value effort over ability .

    Wrong.

    East Asian parents tend to believe in nature the most, with nurture as an indispensable part to either compensate a little bit or safeguard the former.

    The Chinese value the final ability the most regardless how one gets it.

    Yet more often than not, the ones with high natural ability show even more personal efforts (e.g. motivation, diligence, etc) than the ones with low natural ability.

    Towards someone who obviously lacks natural ability yet shows much personal efforts, however, the Chinese culture values and appreciates it over someone who has apparent high natural ability yet shows little efforts to better oneself . In this case, value something over another thing is entirely a different proposition from natural ability or the lackof. The Chinese indeed are valuing humbleness & diligence of the former over the underlying arrogance & laziness of the latter.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @Anonymous
    , @FKA Max
  156. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @FKA Max

    ”Ashkenazi Jews have the highest frequency of this combination in their population:”

    High IQ ashkenazi jews seem actually more normal than other caucasian people with high IQ.

    • Replies: @FKA Max
  157. AaronB says:
    @FKA Max

    I can accept that distinction, Max, between mental and physical laziness.

    I wold merely add, though, that if frequent breaks are associated with genius, it would be rash to attribute it to innate genetic intelligence.

  158. AaronB says:
    @PandaAtWar

    Yet more often than not, the ones with high natural ability show even more personal efforts (e.g. motivation, diligence, etc) than the ones with low natural ability.

    Ha! Here we go again :)

    • Replies: @PandaAtWar
  159. Rurik says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    why doesn’t Mr. Reed just write about fishing, diving, cop stuff, etc? He has been all around and should still have plenty to write about.

    perhaps because doing so doesn’t generate the kind of response his political rants do

    or, he’s trying to mollify certain quarters, like the Mexicans and others who’re enraged at Trump for potentially closing the door on their scam, where, like Castro during the Mariel boatlift, they send the worst of their dregs to the ZUS, and it’s a win/win for Mexico.

    I hope Fred’s next article is on the whinny crybaby Yankee gringos over the Kate Steinle verdict.

    I hope Fred explains to us all why that white (racist whore) deserved what she got!

    Sure, the gun the Mexican orc used was recently stolen, and he admitted to shooting the shot that murdered her (while claiming he was only shooting at sea lions), only to recant and say the gun went off by itself) and was acquitted by a jury of San Franciscans. Obviously as a repudiation of Trump and the deplorables.

    Fred needs to remind us, as only his prose can, that this white bitch had no excuse for being in Mexican lands to begin with. That her racist ancestors took this land from Mexico, and that Jose Garcia Zarate was simply doing his part to take it back from the current racists occupying it.

    ‘Curmudgeons guffaw, as ‘the intellectual equivalent of gas-station louts’ find out their pale hue is no match for a bullet intent on its destination, even if it’s the gun, and not the convicted felon brandishing it, that ironically is responsible for the belated justice meted out’.

    Oh well, but we all get the point.

    even when these Mexicans (or Somalis in police uniforms) plug pretty young women with bullet holes, their apologists will never relent in their demands that more and more and more of these immigrants are exactly what the ZUSA needs!

    I’m glad the guy got off, (with honest sympathy for her loved ones) because just like with OJ, it gives the few people with a functioning brain another opportunity to see exactly what motivates the left today- and their legions of losers who happen to also be first class citizen (federal law protected, [unlike whitey]) ‘people of color’.

    I’ve got nothing against POC, except when they weren’t even born here, and more to the point, when they harbor a visceral hatred for the white people who were. What is the percentage of POC who do resent or even hate whitey here in the ZUSA? Now that’s a damn good question!

    I’d love to know the answer to that one. Because there are millions and millions of POC who don’t hate whitey, and indeed, would have convicted the murderous POS that shot that women. Whereas it’s the white liberals in San Francisco who no doubt voted to acquit him, because he was a POC (and illegal) and because his victim was white (and therefor racist – deserved to die).

    If the guy would have been convicted and sent to prison, that’d be all we’d hear about it, and the discussion would end. But the shitlibs on the jury have done the memory of Kate Steinle and all of us a favor, by exposing the level of hatred they harbor for ‘the patriarchy’ (white society) to the point of exonerating a Mexican illegal who murdered one of them (and a young pretty girl no less) and exposing the id of the left for the rest of us to stare at incredulously. I only wish, just like with the OJ verdict, and how the cameras captured all those black people cheering, that likewise we could witness all the shitlibs (and their patron saint Fred) howling their victory cheers at the news of this acquittal.

    if it’s a shooting war they want, then this is as good an issue to divide us all as I could ask for.

    if you believe, as obviously the jury did, that white (racist) women should have no protection from the ‘justice’ meted out to them by noble Mexican social justice warriors, in the real sense, then lets get down to it.

    Let’s roll!

    I’ll stand on this side, with the “racist” whiteys, (with no doubt millions of people of color)

    vs.

    all the other people who demand that Mexicans and everybody else have every right (and indeed, obligation) to take this land back from the racist white people who stole it, (like Fred and all his buddies at BLM and SPLC and shitlibs the world over)

    this case is a great dividing line for America. It draws the issues in black and white very starkly.

    ‘that Mexican had more right to be in California than that privileged, racist white bitch had, and she got what she deserved! And too bad Trump and all his gas-station lout deplorables didn’t get it too!!!’

    let’s open up the ids and look inside, shall we?

    I remember Geraldo interviewing a black women during the OJ trial, and even Geraldo was amazed when the woman said OJ should go free even if he did murder Nicole. ‘Too many black men are in prison, and his children need him to be at home’ was her rationalization.

    what she didn’t say, was OJ had every right to butcher some white racist whore, and her white racist lover. Because he’s a black man, and the privileged, white racist society owes him a debt they can never repay. But by offering their young women up to be murdered 0n the streets by POC with a grudge, they at least go a little way towards making up for their racism and eternal, infinite guilt.

    That’s what this verdict was all about.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  160. Truth says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    Say it loud and say it proud, 阴谋兄弟!

  161. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Rurik

    Thank you Rurik. You are, by far, the most intelligent – and honest – poster on this website.

    Never give up. We need people like you to cut through the bull and examine the globalist, “inevitable”, agenda. Now more than ever.

    • Replies: @Rurik
  162. FKA Max says: • Website
    @Anonymous

    Maybe conformist is a better word to describe their personality type than “normal”.

    I would agree that both collectivist Jews and East Asians are more conformist than individualist Northern Europeans. Even white Russians are less individualist and less odd/eccentric/weird, and probably more conformist than (Protestant) Northern Europeans:

    Somebody suggested that I was a prodigy. Another time it was suggested that I should be called “bug brains,” because I had ideas, but they were sort of buggy or not perfectly sound… To some extent, sanity is a form of conformity. And to some extent, people who are insane are non-conformists…https://www.bustle.com/articles/85470-11-thought-provoking-john-nash-quotes-that-are-as-offbeat-wonderful-as-he-was

    http://www.unz.com/freed/gigo-and-the-intelligence-of-countries-disordered-thoughts/#comment-1916424

    The Late, Great American WASP
    The old U.S. ruling class had plenty of problems. But are we really better off with a country run by the self-involved, over-schooled products of modern meritocracy?

    http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702304367204579268301043949952

    A good student might even be more than a bit of a follower, a conformist, standing ready to give satisfaction to the powers that be so that one can proceed to the next good school, taking another step up the ladder of meritocracy.

    http://www.unz.com/forum/white-students-unfair-advantage-in-admissions/#comment-1748458

    Collectivist vs individualist cultures

    [MORE]

    This is not about communism vs capitalism. Get that out of your head immediately. It’s really more about identity- do you identify more as an individual or part of a group.
    [...]

    In Maslow’s pyramid- the top level is self actualization. But if he’d been Asian, the top would be social harmony within one’s group.

    [...]
    The thoroughly western kids did better and were less stressed when they made the choices, but the Asian American kids were happier and more confident when told their mothers had chosen for them. It wasn’t that one or the other was better, it was that one or the other matched their cultural backgrounds and expectations better.

    Source: http://thecommonroomblog.com/2017/09/collectivist-vs-individualist-cultures.html

    Jews and the Chinese seem to be equally ambitious and competitive, some might even call it cunning. Interestingly, the two groups/races seem to have comparable IQs and seem to be carrying the low-activity 3-repeat MAOA allele at very similar rates
    [...]
    As both authors belong to one of the above groups and coming from an immigrant family, namely Chua being Chinese and Rubenfeld being Jewish, Chua further claims that “Chinese Americans are three generations behind the Jews” as both Jewish Americans and Chinese Americans share lots of similar behaviors

    http://www.unz.com/forum/white-students-unfair-advantage-in-admissions/#comment-1754583

    Stereotypes of East Asians in the United States

    Tiger Mother

    The archetypal tiger mom (similar to the Jewish mother stereotype and the Japanese Kyoiku mama) refers to a strict or demanding mother who pushes her children to high levels of scholastic and academic achievement, using methods regarded as typical of childrearing in East Asia, South Asia and Southeast Asia to the detriment of the child’s social, physical, psychological and emotional well-being.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereotypes_of_East_Asians_in_the_United_States#Tiger_Mother

    Stereotypes of Jews

    Jewish mother

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereotypes_of_Jews#Jewish_mother

    Narcissistic parent

    A narcissistic parent is a parent affected by narcissism or narcissistic personality disorder. Typically narcissistic parents are exclusively and possessively close to their children and may be especially envious of, and threatened by, their child’s growing independence.[1] The result may be what has been termed a pattern of narcissistic attachment, with the child considered to exist solely to fulfill the parent’s wishes and needs.[2] Commonly parents attempt to force their children to treat themselves as though they are their parents’ puppets, or else be subject to punishments such as emotional abuse.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_parent

    The genetic epidemiology of personality disorders

    The DSM-IV classification includes 10 categorical PD diagnoses grouped into three clusters: A or the “odd-eccentric,” B or the “dramatic-emotional,” and C or the “anxious-fearful.”8 Cluster A includes para-noid, schizoid, and schizotypal PD, and Cluster B anti-social, borderline, histrionic, and narcissistic PD, whilecluster C includes avoidant, dependent, and obsessive-compulsive PD.
    [...]
    Cluster B

    Polymorphisms in the MAOA gene have been found to be associated with cluster B PDs,112 and antisocial traits.113

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3181941/

    Cluster B personality disorders are associated with allelic variation of monoamine oxidase A activity.
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15870836

    A Polymorphism of the MAOA Gene is Associated with Emotional Brain Markers and Personality Traits on an Antisocial Index https://www.nature.com/articles/npp20091

    Strict Asian Parents & Stressed, Pressured Youth

    Jewish Mothers — What’s New?

    Q: What is a genius?

    A: An average student with a Jewish mother.

    • Troll: Vinteuil
    • Replies: @Vinteuil
  163. Vinteuil says:
    @FKA Max

    How much are you getting paid for this crap, & who’s paying you?

    Or do you actually do it for free?

    • Replies: @FKA Max
    , @utu
  164. FKA Max says: • Website
    @PandaAtWar

    Completely agree.

    Thank you very much for pointing this out, and for highlighting and clarifying this for us (clueless) Westerners, Mr. Panda.

    China’s soft power comes with a very hard edge

    [MORE]

    No animal in the world is more adored than the giant panda. There is a reason: the panda’s proportions — short fat limbs, oversized heads and big eyepatches — trigger the same neural reaction in us as the sight of human babies.

    https://www.ft.com/content/ae476228-bfea-11e7-b8a3-38a6e068f464

    Pandas: clever or stupid?
    Faking pregnancies to get treats, holding out for panda porn, music and air conditioning. Could pandas be the smartest of them all?

    A panda has apparently displayed unprecedented levels of cunning in faking a pregnancy to get herself more buns, fruit and bamboo rations.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/earth/wildlife/11061102/Pandas-clever-or-stupid.html

    The truth about giant pandas

    Reputation: Giant pandas are cute and harmless, with an amusing habit of sneezing. But their insistence on eating bamboo is dumb and they are rubbish at sex, so they deserve to go extinct. Except, of course, those proficient in kung fu.

    Reality: They are cute, for sure. But don’t go in for a cuddle; pandas can deliver one heck of a bite. Eating bamboo is a blinding evolutionary strategy. They have an intense and productive sex drive. They do not deserve to go extinct.

    There is a lot of confusion about giant pandas, possibly more than any other species alive. This is because of the absolutely massive symbolic, political and economic baggage that is heaped on captive pandas. This burden far outweighs what we really know about this species in the wild.
    [...]
    It turns out that threesome or more-somes are pretty standard for giant pandas in the wild, an arrangement that would be hard to replicate in any zoo. In just over three hours, Schaller recorded the large male mating with Zhen-Zhen at least 48 times, roughly once every three minutes. This is way more sex than most humans get in a year.

    http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20150310-the-truth-about-giant-pandas

  165. Rurik says:
    @Anonymous

    I just used up my ‘agree’ button (just kidding ; )

    thank you for your kind words!

  166. FKA Max says: • Website
    @Vinteuil

    You are currently at the “ad hominem” level of “Graham’s hierarchy of disagreement” http://www.unz.com/freed/fun-with-iq-deep-thought/#comment-2099750

    Bye.

    • Replies: @FKA Max
  167. utu says:
    @Vinteuil

    Good question. I haven’t figured him out yet but clearly there is something off.

  168. Alma123 says:

    I am amazed at the number of people who have the time to amuse themselves bs-ing about a topic that has not been defined. I for one would like to get a look at the IQ test that was administered in the Democratic Republic of Congo.

    And I love how words like “innovation” are tossed around here as though they are assumed to be valuable to society. No doubt the folks whose combined efforts gave us GMO foods and bought the scientists and government officials required to insure their economic viability were high-IQ successes in their field.

    From the quality of the commentary here I’d say a lot of IQ power is going to waste. How about making the world a better place, guys?

    • Replies: @Rod1963
  169. @AaronB

    Sorry but who could resist it? lol

    Higher IQ people, on average, possess and exhibit more intellectual curiosity hence have stronger motivations to stick around a subject in hand, in order to satisfy the higher demand of stimulus of our larger and more efficient brains. This is pure physical.

    Larger and more efficient brains in turn make it natural and easier to highly concentrate on a subject/an activity of interest for a sustained longer period of time, aka diligence.

    Confucius ideals of s ceaseless self-cultivation, life-time motivation, and studious diligence, were born, and have been maintained as the core social values for millennia in China-centred East Asia instead of Sub-Sahara Africa for a reason, after all. Enlighten Panda what that reason might be?

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @AaronB
  170. Talha says:
    @PandaAtWar

    Hey Panda,

    What came first? Which influenced which with regard to IQ and Confucian culture? How can you prove it?

    Peace.

    • Agree: AaronB
    • Replies: @PandaAtWar
  171. AaronB says:
    @PandaAtWar

    Confucius ideals of s ceaseless self-cultivation, life-time motivation, and studious diligence, were born, and have been maintained as the core social values for millennia in China-centred East Asia instead of Sub-Sahara Africa for a reason, after all. Enlighten Panda what that reason might be?

    Ah, my dear Panda, this is precisely the question that I have been asking, in one form or another, this entire time!

    A minute analysis of the terms of the question shows that it cannot, in principle, be answered.

    The logic is quite inescapable, my dear Panda.

    “Innate ability” can never be observed, hence it cannot be measured. Science can observe, and measure, only “manifested ability”.

    Which is a compound entity, formed by the coming together of many psycho-emotional elements.

    I am afraid, Panda, that you have allowed yourself to remain content with assumption, and have not carried your analysis into the very marrow of the question.

    “Innate ability”, it is now clear, must take its place on the trash-heap of discarded scientific ideas, ideas which once seemed compelling, but which time has revealed as naive simplifications.

    We must take our cue from the great Kant, Panda, whose subtle lessons we must rescue from cultural amnesia again and again -

    “Innate ability”, Panda, is a noumenon, and science can only measure the phenomenon.

    Well, Panda!

    We have learned a lesson, have we not. Behind us is the naivete of youth. Our thought has reached maturity.

    No longer are we blind to the vain imaginings that posseses our minds as soon as it is no longer a question of designing a plane, a train, or a car.

    • Replies: @Santoculto
  172. Rod1963 says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    I can’t read that black guy’s face, but I think there is an element of fear in these people’s minds now. The white man has been woken up too soon. It was supposed to happen after we were all constrained and had no way out.

    This may be the best explanation yet as to why the mass freakout by the Progs over Trump’s win and why it’s even getting worse. It threw them off their schedule and as you pointed out, the white man has woken up too soon. It’s bad news for them.

    They really thought that Hillary would win and go full jihad on lower class whites while opening up the borders for every 3rd world savage. So when 2020 rolled around, whites would be politically neutered and stripped of their rights and ready for ethnic cleansing.

  173. Rod1963 says:
    @Alma123

    A lot of high IQ guys work for companies that use them to screw up the world and people. They have no problem with it either.

    For example during the late 40′s through the 60′s the government did radiation experiments on American civilians and soldiers without their knowledge or permission. This included the sick, children and convicts. Many got very sick, some died, some got cancer and died, etc. This was all done by some very high IQ men, who bullshitted themselves what they were doing was scientific and not f**king evil.

    Mind you they had already gathered a massive amount of information in regards to radiation sickness from the bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki both from the civilians and American soldiers sent to study them(many of them got sick as well). That wasn’t enough so they demanded more test subjects.

    Take Google, Facebook and Amazon. They employ very many smart young people. Some scary smart. Yet all of them are into big brother monitoring and censoring of the average person with the tools and products they develop. Others like Facebook designed their system to addict people to and f**k them up socially while making money off them.

    These people are smart but total evil f**ks who deserved to be raped by a chainsaw.

    This is why I don’t worship high IQ’s, they are only part of the picture. The people who turn this sole criteria into a fetish are fools.

  174. @Talha

    IQ first of course, then culture.

    Panda, for one, is a living proof!

    • Replies: @Talha
  175. “Innate ability” can never be observed, hence it cannot be measured. Science can observe, and measure, only “manifested ability”.
    .

    rofl

    Then we don’t know the innate ability of water, ice, wood, oxygen, and {whatever elements and living organisms in nature you want to plug in here} , only know their manifested ability, right?

    If you play this kind of words game, then the humans know nothing, and can not say anything, let alone formulating any natural law or theory, right?

    In your logic, the very word “human” itself is in deep sh!t as well, as the innate ability of human ( “we can’t measure thus don’t know”as you stated) could actually be 100X lower than wild monkeys, which by definition makes you innately non-human, right?… is this what you try to argue?

    • Replies: @AaronB
  176. Talha says:
    @PandaAtWar

    Pandas are cute and cuddly creatures, universally beloved by the world so one does not like to disagree with them.

    However, you have not given any solid proof for your position – nor can you unless you have historical records of IQ tests.

    The appearance of men like Confucius (who may or may not have been a Divinely-guided figure from our perspective) are black swan events that change the course of history for mankind. Adherence to his advice for running societies and putting the right kind of people in positions of authority to produce benefit for the people, could easily have been the catalyst for the results you see today that sets East Asia apart from the world.

    My position is also speculative since I don’t have hard data, but so is yours.

    Also, being a panda at war, you may want to encourage people to donate to a noble cause:

    Peace.

    • Replies: @PandaAtWar
  177. @AaronB

    ”“Innate ability” can never be observed, hence it cannot be measured. Science can observe, and measure, only “manifested ability”.”

    Complete insanity to say ”innate ability” CAN NEVER BE OBSERVED…

    • Replies: @AaronB
  178. AaronB says:
    @PandaAtWar

    Then we don’t know the innate ability of water, ice, wood, oxygen, and {whatever elements and living organisms in nature you want to plug in here} , only know their manifested ability, right?

    Now you ate starting your get it, Panda. Its elementary science, and elementary philosophy.

    All knowledge is only of the world of phenomena.

    We can only know water as it manifests in the world of phenomena, where it is necessarily conditionedby other factors like temperature, atmosphere, and interaction with physical objects (like it’s container).

    We can never know water in its “innate state” – every time we observe water, we observe it as conditioned by other factors like temperature, etc.

    Similarly with IQ, we can only observe it when it is conditioned by other factors, like motivation, mental state, physical conditions, etc.

    We can never catch it in its “pure” form.

    In your logic, the very word “human” itself is in deep sh!t as well, as the innate ability of human ( “we can’t measure thus don’t know”as you stated) could actually be 100X lower than wild monkeys, which by definition makes you innately non-human, right?… is this what you try to argue?

    I understand your extreme agitation at having encountered for the first time the insights of Kant (troubling, I know, although this philosophy was long known in ancient Asia), bit excitement distorts thinking.

    “Human” is a term applied to observed phenomena, that’s all. Of course we cannot observe the “essence” of a human, or whether humans and monkeys have different “essences”.

    Many Eastern philosophies indeed claim that behind phenomena all is One.

    Modern science is gradually catching up to these these insights (see quantum physics), and Western philosophy reached them by the 19th century. Although Christian mystics, and some ancient philosophers, even before.

    As for the IQ of monkeys, as Montaigne said, “when I play with my cat, how do I know my cat doesn’t play with me?”

    Panda, in your zeal to win the approval of Westerners you neglect the rich and subtle thought of your ancestors.

    But we have traveled too far afield, Panda – when it comes to science, no scientist thinks we can capture things in their “pure state”, uncnditioned by other factors external to it.

    Why do some make an exception for IQ? The answer is clear – it is not science, but a political device our elites are quite happy to utilize.

    • Replies: @edNels
    , @Anonymous
    , @PandaAtWar
  179. edNels says:
    @AaronB

    I agree with this:

    IQ, we can only observe it when it is conditioned by other factors, like motivation, mental state, physical conditions, etc.

    And with this:

    IQ? The answer is clear – it is not science, but a political device our elites are quite happy to utilize.

    A political device, but the more in denial they get the wordier they are, I had to scroll through thousands of words there!

    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @Santoculto
  180. AaronB says:
    @Santoculto

    Under what conditions can we observe it, Santoculto?

    The word “conditions” – dwell on that, Santoculto.

    Even psychometricians do not claim we can observe innate ability – they admit we can only indirectly deduce it, by controlling for other factors

    (‘g’ is obtained through factor analysis, as we know, not thru direct observation)

    The problem is, they artificially narrow the range of facors to those they think they can control for.

    They refuse to consider any factor they cannot control for.

    Since motivation cannot be controlled for, they will quite simply refuse to admit it is significant – even though every human interaction with the outside world is heavily mediated by motivation.

    Every time I have brought up motivation in debates about IQ, my opponent has lapsed into a curious silence.

    Look, science is the deliberate exclusion of factors that cannot be precisely measured, numerically. Science was designed to have a narrow scope, by intention.

    Science was supposed to remain silent on many things.

    When psychometricians limit themselves to what can be measured numerically, they are only doing good science.

    They are doing what good scientists are supposed to be doing.

    Science is methodology. The notion that only what we can measure is real is epistomology. Such a notion is the foundation of science – science cannot prove it. By definition, science must assume it.

    Without a prior epistemic stance, science cannot begin. But science cannot prove an epistemic stances. It itself depends on one.

    Do you, then, understand the monstroushidden assumption at work here, Santoculto?

    We have chosen a particular epistemic stance – and then pretended that science has proven it!

    Do you see how circular this is?

    Nothing could be more unscientific, and poor Science suffers badly at the hands of its fallible mortal practitioners.

    Well, once again I have strayed too far, but all of this remains relevant, it seems to me.

    • Replies: @Santoculto
  181. @AaronB

    A enormous comment to explain this* Really*

    When someone want deliberately [or delieberately] complicate certain intellectual lines at maximum levels s/he will do it, not exactly to reach certain grain of truth but to obscure it…

    Under what conditions can we observe it, Santoculto?

    The word “conditions” – dwell on that, Santoculto.

    Yes, that’s my nickname…

    Even psychometricians do not claim we can observe innate ability – they admit we can only indirectly deduce it, by controlling for other factors

    (‘g’ is obtained through factor analysis, as we know, not thru direct observation)

    So Aaron boy, are you conflating innate ability with ”g”*

    A prodigious [redundantly] child can show us how innate ability look like and it can be extrapolated to most-other developmental types.

    How explain a very very younger and vivencially-crude human being showing very advanced skills which, normatively, may be reached five or considerably more years*

    Are their fathers mavericks**

    I will not read the rest of your pretend-to-be-philosophically-honest-machinations…

    • Replies: @AaronB
  182. AaronB says:
    @edNels

    Indeed. They must be wordy, and they must be technical.

    Truth, however, is unadorned.

    Its worth unpacking their hidden assumptions.

    All human cognition is motivated by emotional biases, and these manifest on the level of hidden assumptions.

    Before we embark on any thought-adventure, we adopt a particular epistemic and emotional stance.

    Even math depends on unproven axioms.

    This does not mean that a certain set of propositions cannot be adequate to a specific situation. Trouble starts when, blind to our hidden assumptions, we try and reverse the relationship between epistomology and methodology.

    This is the sin committed by modern practitioners of science, and those for whom science – a method – has become the basis for a metaphysic, when a metaphysic must be prior to method.

    The mischief is that you cease seeing that you even have a metaphysic – your metaphysic becomes hidden, conflated into your method, as it were, and the boundaries of your method become the limits of reality, a terribly impoverished reality.

    Such is the danger of confusing the relationship between method and metaphysic, and it is the tragedy of the modern world.

    • Replies: @edNels
  183. AaronB says:
    @Santoculto

    I misjudged you, Santoculto, and I apologize for wasting your time.

    • Replies: @Santoculto
  184. @AaronB

    Ok!

    But do you can reply my comment, at least*

  185. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @AaronB

    But we have traveled too far afield

    Way, way too far, sparky. “We” – meaning you – should step away from the bong now.

  186. @Priss Factor

    “In some ways, this was good because Negroes were less likely to be slavish and take shi* from others”
    although historically it seems that every time outsiders came in contact with Subsaharan Africans it ended in Blacks getting enslaved. It is interesting that those Non-Blacks like Europeans and Arabs independently concluded that Subsaharan Africans where of best use as slaves, as trade or even classical imperialistic exploitation did not work for there was no wealth to trade or exploit except extremely cheap and simple physical labor. No cooperation means putting up a good fight individually, but on a large scale they lost terribly – every time.

  187. @AaronB

    Panda, in your zeal to win the approval of Westerners you neglect the rich and subtle thought of your ancestors.

    Horse, in your zeal to win the approval of Panda you neglect the rich and subtle thought of your ancestors – don’t run on the wrong side of the river! lol

    Why do some make an exception for IQ? The answer is clear – it is not science, but a political device our elites are quite happy to utilize.

    But didn’t you say that “science” can’t be clearly defined, nor can “political device” and “elites”, let alone “happy”?

    Who just stated “similarly with IQ, we can only observe it when it is conditioned by other factors, like motivation, mental state, physical conditions, etc.”?

    So how do you know the “science” you referred to is true or false?
    the “device” is a real thing?
    Define “political”?
    there are people who are “elites” and you’re not one of them when you’re sad instead of “happy”?
    And what is “people”, btw?

    and how to define “sad” as it is not “innate”, which of course is another “puzzle” altogether?
    or can “puzzle” really be a form of “mental state”?
    what is “mental state” anyway? …

    yeah, now you are starting to get it?

    or are you sure you are “you”?… lamo

    • Replies: @AaronB
  188. @Talha

    The appearance of men like Confucius (who may or may not have been a Divinely-guided figure from our perspective) are black swan events that change the course of history for mankind. Adherence to his advice for running societies and putting the right kind of people in positions of authority to produce benefit for the people, could easily have been the catalyst for the results you see today that sets East Asia apart from the world.

    But it seems that China has just been full of “black swans”, all the time, for 2,500 years, to not have ditched Confucius ideals, out of thousands others, but maintained them instead, whereas SS Afirca has not had a single “black swan”, in the contrary, to have built a single non-mud 2-story building with a balcony in the said period? Why is that?

    Oh btw, perhaps you may want to have a word with AaronB on what are “black”and “swan” after all? He has a strong opinion about them.

    • Replies: @Talha
  189. @edNels

    Aaaaaaaaron (((boy))),

    vocabulary size don’t correlates with motivation, mental state or physical condition, period…

    IQ analyse more about already [basal] accomplished cognitive skills such vocabulary or arythmetic than fluid ones [don't confuse it with non-verbal, i'm talking about reasoning lines] where this psychological conditions may have a great role…

    • Replies: @Santoculto
  190. @Santoculto

    To retrieve already crhystallized information, in the case of vocabulary size, we don’t need to do big effort….

    There are tests where mental effort will be higher just because we don’t need retrieve or combine new informations or to solve problems and vocabulary size is one of them.

    • Replies: @Santoculto
  191. edNels says:
    @AaronB

    Thanks for this very worthwhile comment, this is well written and full of meaning, and broken down into assimilable parts.

    I’m working on understanding it, and appreciate the brevity and well chosen prose form.
    It’s not onerous to read over and study, as it yields benefit.

    As I have noted from my readings technical oriented stuff, often I am impressed that it could be produced from AI robots, but then no wonder, as humans have endeavored to become overly ”rational” and to conform to some affected ”scientific inner voice” or WTheck, it may be hard to determine when there will have been any transformative handoff.

    To wit:

    Trouble starts when, blind to our hidden assumptions, we try and reverse the relationship between epistomology and methodology.

    Which sounds to me like that somebody is listening to theirself talk/write more than they are really cogitating for real. Getting the horse (epistemology before method,) or cart.

    This is the sin committed by modern practitioners of science, and those for whom science – a method – has become the basis for a metaphysic, when a metaphysic must be prior to method.

    Reminds me of my take on Quantum mechanics, (loosely ) from Hawkings and Feynmanns primers for laymen books, where the metaphysic really is the entire story after all. Well I need to revisit that, Theory of all Possible Universes, idea!

    I think it behoves us to leave some room for doubt and room for new revelations before any headlong plunge into creating a hierarchy of peoples intellectual specifics as per scientific charting.

    AI will do all the scientific jargon better than our little prodigies if anybody will be alive to notice!

    • Replies: @AaronB
  192. FKA Max says: • Website
    @FKA Max

    I just want give some brief background information and then share a fascinating discovery I just made.

    Before the disagreement with commenter Vinteuil in this comments thread, I had my first run-in with him in another Unz Review comments thread, after I commented the following:

    Excerpts:

    [MORE]

    1 in 200 Men Direct Descendants of Genghis Khan [likely a low-activity MAO-A aka "warrior gene" carrier]
    [...]
    Genghis Khan killed so many people, that it was actually good for the environment, new study claims
    While the Mongol ruler wasn’t even thinking about it, he was causing the first man-made global cooling.

    http://www.unz.com/jderbyshire/the-talk-nonblack-version/#comment-2099497

    This short comment exchange between us ended with commenter Vinteuil commenting the following:

    OK, I get it now.

    Bye.

    http://www.unz.com/jderbyshire/the-talk-nonblack-version/#comment-2100886

    Now to the fascinating discovery I made…

    The MAOA gene is X-linked meaning that women carry two copies of it and either have two copies of the low-activity or high-activity allelic variant of the gene, or one copy of each. Men only carry one copy; either the high- or low-activity version of MAOA.

    What this also means is that only mothers can pass on the different variants of MAOA to their sons, whereas both mothers and fathers each pass on one copy of MAOA to their daughters.

    So, unless the women, e.g. wives, concubines, female slaves, etc., Genghis Khan had offspring with also carried at least one copy of low-activity MAOA, Genghis Khan’s sons could not have been carriers of the “warrior gene”, but all his daughters would be carriers of his “warrior gene”.

    In the second example, shown below, this female has the Warrior Gene trait, because she carries the Warrior Gene depletion, shown as a value of 3, on both of her chromosomes, the one contributed to her by her father and the one contributed to her by her mother. This also tells us that her father has the Warrior Gene, since he carries only the X chromosome contributed by his mother, which he gave to his daughter. It also tells us that her mother was either a carrier, if she had only the one copy she gave to her daughter, or had the Warrior Gene herself is she carried two copies.

    https://dna-explained.com/2013/06/16/the-warrior-gene/

    This is the fascinating information I discovered:

    Daughters kept Khan’s empire alive
    If not for the daughters of Genghis Khan, the Mongol empire probably would have crumbled sooner.

    One of the strands that fascinated Weatherford involved Khan’s female descendants in a world long ago when males dominated — at least in spoken and written histories. Khan’s four sons figured in the histories, but by many accounts the sons did little to glorify the name of their father. As Weatherford says in his new book, “The Secret History of the Mongol Queens: How the Daughters of Genghis Khan Rescued His Empire,” “Genghis Khan sired four self-indulgent sons who proved good at drinking, mediocre in fighting, and poor at every- thing else; yet their names live on despite the damage they did to their father’s empire.” The ruler’s seven or eight daughters (Weatherford notes that documentation is unclear about the precise number), however, possessed “superior leadership abilities” to the sons, so Khan willed “strategically important parts of his empire” to the women.

    http://www.startribune.com/daughters-kept-khan-s-empire-alive/84174122/

    Source: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/6648001-the-secret-history-of-the-mongol-queens

    So Genghis Khan’s personal copy of the “warrior gene” could only and was only passed on through the daughters he had with various different women throughout his life.

    Weatherford suggests in the introduction that the unknown censor who deliberately cut away part of The Secret History of the Mongols did so in order to obscure Mongol women who became too powerful. Only a small part of the text written by Genghis Khan in 1206 when he was proclaimed Qaghan of the Mongols, remains: “Let us reward our female offspring“.

    If any of his sons were also “warrior gene” carriers like himself they could have only gotten a low-activity MAOA copy from their mothers and not from their father Genghis Khan.

    This is probably how Genghis Khan’s “warrior gene” was spread throughout Asia (my emphasis):

    Part 1: Tiger Queens of the Silk Route 1206–1241

    During his reign, Genghis Khan raised the status of women in positions of prominence, particularly his daughters and consorts. These women included his daughter Altani, who was awarded the title of “Hero “Ba’atur”, given to major figures in the Mongol Empire with successful military and political careers, when she saved the life of his youngest son, Tolui.

    His daughters played crucial roles in Khan’s diplomacy and warfare. They married the leaders of the powerful tribes and nations surrounding the Mongols such as the Ongud, Uyghurs and Oirats, becoming diplomatic shields in all directions, cementing his alliances. The daughters of Genghis Khan came to control the Silk Route and assisted his campaigns in China and Persia. The Mongol women proved adept at administrating their territory and fighting alongside men on foreign conquests.

    After the death of Genghis Khan in 1227, his successors quickly neglected Khan’s legacy. His son, Ögedei, purged his female relatives in order to consolidate his power over the Borjigin clan; including allegedly arranging the assassination of Genghis Khan’s daughter, Altalun, who was ruler of the Uyghur territory.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Secret_History_of_the_Mongol_Queens#Part_1:_Tiger_Queens_of_the_Silk_Route_1206%E2%80%931241

    Fascinating!

    Source: http://www.azquotes.com/quote/673744

    • Replies: @FKA Max
    , @FKA Max
  193. FKA Max says: • Website
    @FKA Max

    Typo: I just want *to* give some brief background information and then share a fascinating discovery I just made.

    Jack Weatherford speaks about Genghis Khan at Embry-Riddle Honors Series

    Jack Weatherford, Macalester College Anthropology professor emeritus and author of several notable books, reminds us that Genghis Khan was the greatest conqueror in world history. Weatherford spoke at Embry-Riddle’s Daytona Beach campus February 4, 2013 as part of the Honors Program Distinguished Speaker Series.

    • Replies: @Santoculto
  194. @Santoculto

    ”Big’ effort = short term or working memory = reasoning

    Less effortful = long term memory = [example] vocabulary size…

  195. @FKA Max

    Genghis Khan killed so many people, that it was actually good for the environment, new study claims

  196. AaronB says:
    @PandaAtWar

    Very well, Panda, let us take a step back.

    To use your example – water. We never observe water when it is unaffected by factors external to it, like temperature, etc.

    I am sure you would agree with this?

    If so, why do you assume we can observe IQ when it is unaffected by factors external to it, like motivation, mental state, etc?

    From a purely scientific point of view, there seems no reason to think so.

    Even scientists agree we cannot observe innate ability directly, but only deduce it by controlling for all variables.

    They merely exclude from consideration all variables they cannot control for.

    That is their sleight of hand.

    Tell me, Panda, why must we exclude motivation from consideration?

    But I do not expect an answer from you, because your emotional biases are making you far stupider than you need be, and unable to see what is plainly in front of your nose.

    Unfortunately, like many Chinese today you are in a will-to-power phase – which means you are more interested in social “victories” than genuine understanding, and argue with rhetoric rather than logic, like Jews.

    May you and your people swiftly overcome this terrible disease, and return to wisdom.

  197. They merely exclude from consideration all variables they cannot control for.

    The possibility that no one, even the god, can exclude all variables doesn’t mean nothing is deductible and nothing is meaningful.

    Tell me, Panda, why must we exclude motivation from consideration?

    1. define motivation (needless to add that you would insist taking consideration of all external variables when defining it, wouldn’t you? lol)

    2.how do you know that motivation is not excluded from consideration?

    • Replies: @AaronB
  198. AaronB says:
    @edNels

    Thank you and I appreciate your answer.

    I think it behoves us to leave some room for doubt and room for new revelations before any headlong plunge into creating a hierarchy of peoples intellectual specifics as per scientific charting

    Well said, and not rushing to extravagant conclusions is merely good science.

    But “ranking” humans will not easily lend itself to neutral, objective study, as emotional biases will inevitably exercise their distorting effect.

    To clarify my earlier point a bit –

    Science began as the deliberate exclusion of anything that could not be measured and expressed mathematically.

    By thus narrowing the field, it was hoped reliable control over the external world would be possible.

    This was a chosen stance, an unproven axiom, a built in assumption.

    It has proven itself quite effective as a limited method, but cannot serve as the basis for claims about ultimate reality (a metaphysic).

    Just as the conclusions of Euclid cannot prove their axioms, but must assume them, the conclusions of science cannot prove that reality is limited to what can be precisely measured.

    Today, however, science is taken as having provedwhat it must assume , and cannot, by definition, prove.

    That is what I mean by putting the cart before the horse.

    The illusion is kept up by a sort of guild pact to simply refuse considerstion to any factor that cannot be precisely measured, on the hopes that what one excludes from consciousness, does not exist.

    But it is a rapidly collapsing edifice.

    The true scientific position would be to admit that motivation may dramatically influence IQ, but science is not designed to measure and mathematically express so nebulous an entity as motivation, so we don’t know, and the entire field of IQ studies, though not without value, is vitiated by insuperable difficulties, and cannot be made the basis of extravagant conclusions.

    Such humility, such honesty, is unimaginable when the founding assumptions of science can no longer be distinguished from the practice of science.

    • Agree: edNels
  199. AaronB says:
    @PandaAtWar

    The possibility that no one, even the god, can exclude all variables doesn’t mean nothing is deductible and nothing is meaningful.

    I never said nothing is deducible or meaningful unless we exclude all variables.

    I am arguing against a specific claim, no more.

    The claim that IQ isolates and measures innate cognitive ability, rather than a compound of ability and mental and emotional factors, and can serve as the basis for determining innate ability between groups or individuals.

    I am pointing out that this rests on a hidden assumption, for which evidence is lacking, and which is prima facie implausible – that all humans, at all times, have the exact same desires, motivations, and wants, and are willing to make the same sacrifices, exert the same effort, towards the same goals.

    The assumption that everyone really wants the glories of our wonderful civilization may come easily to our complacent and self-assured modern selves, but it is unscientific.

    1) Motivation is the willingness to exert effort towards the achievement of a particular goal – clear enough?

    And yes, any analysis of motivation would have to rest on the assumption that it is heavily influenced by external factors.

    2. Because I have read the psychometric literature, and discussed it extensively with advocates of IQ theory.

    Some, in fact, do consider motivation, although most do not, but never with any scientific rigor, and as a mere formality.

  200. The claim that IQ isolates and measures innate cognitive ability…

    Who claims that?

    IQ highly correlates with innate ability – that’s the claim.

    The power of IQ, and any scientific statement, is correlation and prediction.

    IQ doesn’t need to isolate, as nothing can be 100% isolated strictly speaking. Yet that doesn’t affect us at this stage to make some resonable statements, as any scientific experiment does. That how science progresses.

    Panda saw the hidden assumption you mentioned. In fact anything (even 1+1=2) has one, or numerous, hidden assumption/s. Yet that doesn’t prevent us from making scientific statments, does it? Any deducible or meaningful scientific statement (as you admitted that there are) must operate under assumption/s to make predictions with resonablely high degrees of re-producible accuracies. IQ-related statements do exactly that. Where is the problem?

    On motivation:

    We know that it is impossible for “all humans, at all times, have the exact same desires, motivations, and wants, and are willing to make the same sacrifices, exert the same effort, towards the same goals.”

    However, we also know that according to stats IQ highly correlates with life-long success results and a whole host of other important issues with some being as critical as survival or extinction.

    – since we can reasonablely assume that all humans during our life-time, at all times, have our utmost desires, motivations, and wants that each of our individual brains can gather together, willing to make the utmost sacrifices, exert the utmost effort, towards the ultimate goals of to be alive, to survive and to survive better, regardless how “dumb” or how “smart”he/she could be , can’t we? ,

    – therefore we can reasonablely deduct that IQ can be highly positively correlated with motivations in the very first place. It makes measuing motivation on a standalone basis more or less irrelevent in the context of both IQ test and innate ability.

    In short: your “motivation”, “creativity”, “emotional ability”, “personal skills”, and whatever that comes out of your innate grey matters, unless they hide and grow inside knees of course(still innate though!), will be ultimately reflected at their utmost in your survival grande finale to be a successfully living and breathing organism. And that finale is highly correlate with IQ. End of story?

    • Replies: @AaronB
  201. Talha says:
    @PandaAtWar

    Hey Panda,

    I don’t think you get the idea of a “black swan” event; one is all you need. If a Confucius-type figure didn’t arise in Sub-Saharan Africa, where are they supposed to find these ideals? Would the Chinese civilization have been the same without him?

    Why is that?

    I don’t know, you can ask them if they wanted to. I don’t like balconies much, I won’t have spent much effort of developing them. They are hardly the only people to not have built large buildings. Apparently indigenous Americans of the North and South variety are plenty of IQ points above Sub-Saharan Africans:

    http://www.vdare.com/articles/indians-arent-that-intelligent-on-average

    So why were some of them building enormous pyramids and some of them lived a fairly basic nomadic and hunter-gatherer existence?

    Compare Mongolia (with an impressive national IQ) with China. Right next door – why didn’t they have a similar path of development? Why was their black-swan event the Great Khan and not some wise philosopher? Why didn’t we see advanced civilization there when compared to Persia? The spread is 16 IQ points – what gives? They are also heads and tails above Indonesia – have you seen the pre-Islamic Buddhist temples they built on Java?

    These are the question Mr. Reed is asking in this article. The answers are obviously not linearly connected to IQ.

    Peace.

  202. AaronB says:
    @PandaAtWar

    Who claims that?

    That is how it has come to be viewed, by laymen and experts alike.

    IQ highly correlates with innate ability – that’s the claim.

    And it is an unscientific claim, asserted by its advocates typically in a state of emotional agitation, arrived at by excluding from consideration factors that undermine this claim.

    The power of IQ, and any scientific statement, is correlation and prediction.

    The power of a scientific statement is prediction for purposes of control. Corelation, as yet, has little scientific value.

    Panda saw the hidden assumption you mentioned. In fact anything (even 1+1=2) has one, or numerous, hidden assumption/s. Yet that doesn’t prevent us from making scientific statments, does it? Any deducible or meaningful scientific statement (as you admitted that there are) must operate under assumption/s to make predictions with resonablely high degrees of re-producible accuracies. IQ-related statements do exactly that. Where is the problem?

    The problem, as I have elaborated at length, is that advocates of IQ do not confine themselves to making the modest predictions supported by the evidence, but indulge in the unscientific luxury of making extravagant claims on innate differences between groups, and individuals.

    The burden of my efforts, Panda, is precisely to return IQ to the modest confines of what can be supported by evidence, and cease from describing speculation, interpretation, and emotion-based assertion, as hard science.

    However, we also know that according to stats IQ highly correlates with life-long success results and a whole host of other important issues with some being as critical as survival or extinction.

    That is not in dispute. It is the illegitimate interprettions of the significance of this fact that are, as well as the unfounded assumption that the arrow of causality runs from IQ towards success.

    since we can reasonablely assume that all humans during our life-time, at all times, have our utmost desires, motivations, and wants that each of our individual brains can gather together, willing to make the utmost sacrifices, exert the utmost effort, towards the ultimate goals of to be alive, to survive and to survive better, regardless how “dumb” or how “smart”he/she could be , can’t we? ,

    Tendentious, as you well know.

    IQ has little to do with survival. African bushman are supremely adapted to survival.

    IQ is corelated with success in a modern industrial society – and the distinctive feature of modern society is the desire for power well beyond the limited needs of survival.

    As for “better” survival, this betrays the depths to which you have assimilated the hidden assumptions of modernity. Traditional societies strove for contentment and sufficiency, not ceaseless improvement.

    They would work till they had enough, and stop.

    African bushman, to this day, cease gathering food once they have enough for the day, which takes only a few hours, despite seemingly living on the very margins of survival, and an abundance of food left in the fields, and many hours left in the day.

    Your own ancestors, Panda, expressed frequent hostility towards technological improvements, and often nipped innovation in the bud.

    There is a legend that the Chinese invented flying machines, only to destroy it as pointless. True or not, it expresses the traditional mindset superbly.

    The notion of ceaseless (physical, material) improvement, beyond necessity, was a striking innovation of modernity, and has become lost to our view as another hidden assumption.

    Far from being a human universal, it had its origin in time and place, and cries out for explanation, as being unnatural to humans.

    therefore we can reasonablely deduct that IQ can be highly positively correlated with motivations in the very first place. It makes measuing motivation on a standalone basis more or less irrelevent in the context of both IQ test and innate ability.

    Perhaps this is progress that you concede this much, although I note you are only prepared to do so on the assumption that motivation is a human constant.

    But alas, that is unscientific, and cannot be maintained.

    While mere survival, up to a point, may reasonably be regarded as a human constant – but only up a point, because history shows striking variance in the importance of survival between groups snd individuals, so much so, perhaps, that I am tempted to withdraw my initial assent. Some groups have chosen suicide over slavery, and have fought to the last man. Others have not. But let it stand – we are talking of something well beyond mere survival.

    In modern society, we see some people expend enormous amounts of energy to amass power, wealth, and status, while others remain indifferent.

    Clearly, motivation, beyond survival, admits of enormous variation in degrees.

    In short: your “motivation”, “creativity”, “emotional ability”, “personal skills”, and whatever that comes out of your innate grey matters, unless they hide and grow inside knees of course(still innate though!), will be ultimately reflected at their utmost in your survival grande finale to be a successfully living and breathing organism. And that finale is highly correlate with IQ.

    You have conspicuously failed to demonstate this proposition beyond reasonable dispute, but at any rate, one cannot claim this as scientific fact.

    At best, it is interpretation, dubious and highly partisan in nature.

    But where it is no longer a question of scientific fact, let each decide for himself.

    So it is progress, at least, that we have drawn clear lines around what is science here, and what conjecture.

    End of story?

    If your thirst for understanding is quenched, them yes, my friend.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @PandaAtWar
  203. FKA Max says: • Website
    @FKA Max

    So Genghis Khan received his “warrior gene” from his mother Hoelun. The accounts of her life sound like she was the prototypical, hard-working “tiger mother” and alpha female:

    Interview with Stephanie Thornton, author of The Tiger Queens

    Sometimes fiction takes on a life of its own and forces the author to make sacrifices for the sake of the story. Is there a character or concept you wish you could have spent more time with or expanded on?

    Strangely enough, it’s Genghis’ mother Hoelun who I wish I could have spent more time with. She was a tough old bird, without whom Genghis likely would have died before reaching puberty. The Tiger Queens is my longest book to date, but I could have easily included another 100 pages about her life. Maybe one day I’ll write a novella about her!

    http://flashlightcommentary.blogspot.com/2014/11/interview-with-stephanie-thornton.html

    After Yesügei’s death, Yesügei’s Khiyad clan abandoned Hoelun, wife Sochigel, and all of Yesügei’s children to follow a rival chieftain. Hoelun immediately took charge of the group and began running up and down the Onon River valley gathering roots, berries, and millet to feed her family. As the boys grew, they learned how to hunt and fish in northern Mongolia’s Khentii Mountains, improving the family’s situation considerably. Hoelun taught her sons the basics of unity and support for one another, but sibling rivalry between the two eldest sons of the group, Temujin and Bekter, eventually lead to Temujin murdering Behter, a crime for which Hoelun chastised her son angrily.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoelun#Widowhood

    The Tiger Queens: The Women of Genghis Khan

    Source: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/20893339-the-tiger-queens

  204. I don’t think you get the idea of a “black swan” event; one is all you need. If a Confucius-type figure didn’t arise in Sub-Saharan Africa, where are they supposed to find these ideals? Would the Chinese civilization have been the same without him?

    {sigh} , it appears that Panda does understand “black swan”, my man.

    Yet the question in hand is not “black swan”, but “black swanS“, which cast heavy doubt on your assumption that “Confucious is black swan event”, because, as Panda repeatedly said, a single Confucius is FAR FAR away from switching China into Confucious state and maintain as such for 2,5oo years without shaken. let’s start from the beginning:

    1) you need at least another scholar who understood the importance of Confucious ideals and reported them to the cultural miniter, now that was a critical “black swan” event, was it not?

    2) you need a miniter who understood the importance of Confucious, and referred his ideals to the emperor. Here you got another “black swan” event?

    3) you need an emperor who saw the value of Confucious, hence decided to impliment the ideals in the end. So definitely emperor “black swan”, yes?

    4) you need generations of Confucious deciples to write down his ideals and keep treaching… another groups of “black swans”!

    5) you need the whole society, for countless generations, wholeheartedly believe in Confucious ideals and study further in order to impliment and maintain them… don’t tell Panda they are no “Black Swans” in your definition.

    When you got all these countless “black swans” events, Panda would sincerely suggest you call them “Black Bears” events instead.

    On the contrary, assume that Confucious had been born in SS Africa 2,500 years ago in a village there:

    it is a fair assumption since he could have equal chance being born anywhere on earth if it were a “black swan”event, huh?

    Then in all honesty do you really have a shred of doubt that Confucious himself, let alone his ideals, would survive his 25th birthday? Mostly likely he would be cut by machetes and eaten alive.

    Can you really imagine that an Africa scholar then would have reported his ideal to the Pan African Cultural Minitry, then to an African emperor to impliment them?

    And millions of Africans for the following 2,500 years would have read and studied Confucious ideals in their mud-made windowless, balcony-less (Confucious loved balconies, Panda tells ya!) classrooms in order to have made SS Africa, and maintained it, as a Confucious region instead of China? …

    Seriously? If you can imagine this from time to time, Panda would suggest you go to Hollywood tomorrow and start schooling George Lucas on sci fi.

    On Mongolia, Persia thing:

    Persia then ( at her high civilisation) was not “Persia” now aka Iran. Panda suspects largely different people, different elites, different values… no contradiction of IQs there.

    Mongolia has had at least 5 IQ point diff from China back then and now. Their poor geography fitted their normad lifestyle well. They couldn’t change it even they wanted to at a time, cuz there’s thing called “the Great Wall of China”!

    Later when Mongolians did get the chance to conquer almost the whole Eurasia(they got sufficiently high IQ to have done that with many Made-in & Invent-by China weapon systems and techniques btw), and established Yuan Dynasty, they did try to change from their normad lifestyle, as their elites were eager studing Confucious, writing Chinese poems, dressing in Chinese suits, adopting all kinds of Chinese systems, trying to be the Chinese… the rest is history. Again, no contradiction of IQ here.

    • Replies: @Talha
  205. Talha says:
    @AaronB

    And there is this:
    “It’s called the “Flynn effect” — the fact that each generation scores higher on an IQ test than the generation before it. Are we actually getting smarter, or just thinking differently? In this fast-paced spin through the cognitive history of the 20th century, moral philosopher James Flynn suggests that changes in the way we think have had surprising (and not always positive) consequences.”

    https://www.ted.com/talks/james_flynn_why_our_iq_levels_are_higher_than_our_grandparents

    “Indeed if you score the people a century ago against modern norms, they would have an average IQ of 70.”
    And this is a man most intimately familiar with the subject. He seems far more humble about what IQ tells us than the people who use his data to spin things they way they want.

    If it can increase within generations of the same people, can it decrease? Why not?

    One feels sorry for Yemen of today – being thrashed by their stronger neighbor, but go back enough and they had built one of the engineering halmarks of the ancient world, the Marib Dam – which the idiot Saudis are busy destroying:

    https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2015/06/150603-Yemen-ancient-Sheba-dam-heritage-destruction-Middle-East-archaeology/

    This was before even the Great Wall was built. What gives?

    Peace.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  206. @AaronB

    Hence we agree to disagree.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  207. AaronB says:
    @Talha

    Right, the Flynn Effect is huge, and is highest on the Ravens, the “most g loaded” test!

    That should come close to demolishing IQ advocates – at the very least, severely shaking their confidence – yet it doesn’t seem to have much effect.

    It’s truly strange, but then is it really so different from the general tone of our media? We’re expected to believe all sorts of weird contradictions, obvious falsehoods, and buy into a shaky “narrative” held together by make-believe and the resolution to exclude from consciousness all sorts of inconvenient facts.

    So it’s really well within norms of modern narrative building, isn’t it.

    I guess it’s no different than all of the ridiculous stuff people believe these days – it’s emotionally gratifying, so we close our eyes to the most obvious absurdities.

    As I said earlier in this thread – argument is useless, though it hasn’t deterred me :)

    Good point about Yemen – I so wanted to visit about ten years ago!

    God willing I will yet have a chance.

    • Replies: @Talha
  208. AaronB says:
    @PandaAtWar

    Mostly :)

    But I have wrung from you the concession that it is indeed an unproven assumption that motivation is a human constant, an unproven assumption on which depends many of the bolder claims of IQ advocates – no mean feat when dealing with a man of your intellectual convictions.

    So I consider this a fruitful discussion so far as it goes, and salute your intellectual honesty, Panda.

  209. Talha says:
    @PandaAtWar

    Hey Panda,

    don’t tell Panda they are no “Black Swans” in your definition

    These aren’t black swan events – without the first event none of these matter. Adopting a good policy is not a black swan event – formulating a unique and long-lasting comprehensive philosophy in the first place is.

    Mostly likely he would be cut by machetes and eaten alive.

    Conjecture – I can spin it the other way too. For instance, some of the Sub-Saharan Africans like those of the Sahel region, Timbuktu, Sene-Gambia, etc. came across the rest of the world when some of their emperors made the pilgrimage to Makkah. They were intelligent enough to invite scholars from all over the rest of the Muslim world to their region to help teach them everything from religion, mathematics, astronomy, etc. the manuscripts from centuries ago are available for anyone to see. They even invited architects from as far away as Spain to help them understand the tools necessary to raise their construction capabilities. Timbuktu flourished as a trade and learning center for centuries until invaded and dismantled by Morocco. So yes, some Sub-Saharan sovereigns did make good policy decisions that resulted in an upliftment of their people – this is not speculation, this is fact.

    Persia then ( at her high civilisation) was not “Persia” now aka Iran.

    Prove it. Some of the highest Persian civilization was right before the Mongols rolled over it. How are they different from the current admixture other than by mixing in with more of the conquerors from Central and East Asia (which should have boosted their IQ if anything)?

    Panda suspects

    So this is your conjecture. You can spin it, I can spin it. Nothing I am saying contradicts any of the facts on the ground with regards to IQ.

    different elites, different values

    OK – so factors other than IQ matter.

    Mongolia has had at least 5 IQ point diff from China back then

    Prove it.

    Later when Mongolians did get the chance to conquer almost the whole Eurasia (they got sufficiently high IQ to have done that with many Made-in & Invent-by China weapon systems and techniques btw)

    Arabs pulled down the Byzantine and Persian Empires – Berbers did in the Visigoths – without resort to Chinese weapons.

    The early battles between China (with her weapons) and the Umayyad and Abbasid were a back and forth until this one which spelled the end of westward expansion of China:

    https://thediplomat.com/2016/01/the-battle-that-kept-the-chinese-out-of-central-asia/

    Again, no contradiction of IQ here.

    You just posited a different track for why the Mongols may have a higher IQ; namely that they may have had a vastly lower IQ until they adopted Confucian policies which helped lift it. Neither does my theory contradict current IQ measurements.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @PandaAtWar
  210. Talha says:
    @AaronB

    Hey AaronB,

    yet it doesn’t seem to have much effect

    At some point, the debate shifts into what can best be described as “theological”.

    So it’s really well within norms of modern narrative building, isn’t it.

    Who says post-moderns don’t have a need for myths – they’re just different ones than the ones of the past.

    Good point about Yemen – I so wanted to visit about ten years ago!

    You still can – yes parts are dangerous, but some places just plod along as usual. My roommate from UCLA spent a year with the Sufi-scholars of Tarim in Hadramawt, Yemen – they’re still open for enrollment – LOL!

    http://tarim.shifa.net.au/

    The Malays and Indonesians will not stay away from their teachers. I would say, Yemen can be visited with caution, you just have to know where to go and stay – just like when visiting Chicago, there are parts that are great and parts that I would not recommend.

    The world passes by and they keep focused on what counts the most. My friend reported that he would pass by children that would be humming lines they had memorized from rhyming medieval theological treatises. Whole other world. It is not easy living by any means, but it is a very spiritual place perhaps because the ego is so crushed by the environment that the spirit has room to rise.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  211. AaronB says:
    @Talha

    The world passes by and they keep focused on what counts the most. My friend reported that he would pass by children that would be humming lines they had memorized from rhyming medieval theological treatises. Whole other world. It is not easy living by any means, but it is a very spiritual place perhaps because the ego is so crushed by the environment that the spirit has room to rise.

    That sounds truly wonderful. I really think if the spirit survives anywhere it is in these forgotten corners of the world, far from the main current of events.

    I just hope the “world” has not come to Yemen in the form of Saudi Arabia.

    The spirit has been chased out of Asia lately, and even India seems full of capitalistic fervor these days.

    Good to know visiting is possible with caution!

    And you are right, moderns need myths as well – in fact, modernity is merely the embrace of myths that are opposite those of tradition.

    Instead of decline from excellence, we have progress towards excellence, etc.

    What I am trying to say is, modernity is not “novel”, “original”, or “creative”, as it tells itself fondly – modernity is merely the gradual working out of embracing the opposite of each traditional idea.

    Each decade, the implications of overturning a traditional idea are more fully worked out – it is what the West has been pleased to call “genius” for the past 500 years.

    Ah, have you grasped another implication of rejecting tradition? You are a genius!

    In other words, modernity is not a “free creation” – its starting point is tradition, it depends on tradition, which it merely negates, point by point.

    Some “creativity”!

    The two exist in a symbiotic polarity, and depend on each other – as one waxes, the other wanes.

    And the new “geniuses” of the next 500 years, one devoutly hopes, will be those great men who diligently work out the implications of rejecting each modern idea, one by one, decade by decade.

    • Replies: @Talha
  212. AaronB says:

    By the way, Talha, I was meaning to ask you before, can you recommend any good books on Sufism?

    I don’t know as much about it as I would like, except that I would like it.

    I have long thought that Europe is in a pre-Buddhist phase, after its empire-phase has, inevitably, been followed by a collapse of its will-to-power, and after Christianity has been transformed into a vehicle for those who seek power and wealth, and thus discredited as a spiritual tradition (in Western Europe, and as a statement of fact not approval. Spiritually minded Europeans I have met seem to viscerally reject Christianity, and those who accept it seem to see it as a vehicle for power impulses, like some parts of the alt-right)

    But I am no longer sure Buddhism is in Europes future – for one, Buddhism appeals only to the intellectual elite, and to be vital, a religion must cater to the masses as well. Yet Buddhism has been stripped of all its mythological and devotional elements, it’s element of transcendent revelation, and made into something abstract.

    If Europe does go Muslim, a very real possibility, then I wonder if our pre-Buddhist elite classes would swell Sufis ranks, leading to a very peculiarly flavored Islam and a great spiritual renaissance?

    An Islamic Europe, to be sure, would have its own peculiar flavor, perhaps, heavily influenced by Sufism.

    Sufism, I understand, is quite similar to Indian mystical traditions, as well as Christian contemplative traditions. Arthur Schopenhauer thought Sufism, and the teachings of Jesus, had Indian sources. But that merely means he noticed they had close affinities.

    But anyways, book recommendations would be highly appreciated.

    • Replies: @Talha
  213. Talha says:
    @AaronB

    Hey AaronB,

    The spirit has been chased out of Asia lately

    This is sad to me as well – I really hope places like China and Japan (places with unique ancient traditions) do not lose themselves in the madness.

    modernity is merely the embrace of myths that are opposite those of tradition

    Like wisdom (which you can’t measure) supplanted by intelligence (which you can). Once I read Neil Postman’s book, it was a game changer.

    which it merely negates, point by point

    Like in deconstructivist art – how beautiful, no?

    https://www.google.com/search?biw=1344&bih=774&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=gcElWtuGBtPwjwOrwbmYCg&q=deconstructivist++china&oq=deconstructivist++china&gs_l=psy-ab.3…195454.195454.0.195753.1.1.0.0.0.0.133.133.0j1.1.0&#8230;.0…1c.1.64.psy-ab..0.0.0….0.1A3yLB4F2v0#imgrc=CN0ouNDiDID9BM:

    Its appearance in places like China is not a good omen.

    Give me that beautiful traditional Chinese way of constructing buildings any day!

    Peace.

  214. @Talha

    Look Talha, you’re abusing the phrase “black swan event” to such a degree that they’re becoming pink. One person alone can not change a society for such a long time. You need the support of the underlying widespread grassroot people in order for the change to happen and maintained. Without the underlying people (aka avg IQ), nothing is possible and long-lived in the long run. In this case, if the underlying Chinese people were as dumb and as lazy as fuck, there would be no legacy left even came along a 900-IQ-E.T., not to mention Confucius.

    This talk drags for too long…Panda doesn’t have sufficient time here to take your points down one by one, lol, just too many issues shown…

    Prove this and prove that…just read the relevant moutained-sized reproducible significant stats for goodness. The evidences are all over the places as long as you’re intellectually honest and look around you.

    Gonna go, excuse Panda.

    • Replies: @Talha
  215. Talha says:
    @PandaAtWar

    Hey Panda,

    One person alone can not change a society for such a long time.

    I did not say that, but one person’s ideas can if adopted by and perpetuated.

    dumb and as lazy as fuck

    Never said they were.

    Without the underlying people (aka avg IQ), nothing is possible and long-lived in the long run.

    And yet the West has plenty of IQ and people around here are talking as if it’s going to collapse soon. What gives? Why can’t smart people figure a way out of this mess? They’re smart, right? Also they should have kids.

    Let’s take two things into account and compare them side-by-side:
    1) the Muslim conquests
    2) the Mongol conquests

    The Muslim conquests (set in motion by a black swan event) obviously required more than one person to carry them out. The Mongols conquered far more territory in a far more bloody fashion and apparently have a much higher IQ than the average for the peoples of the various countries of the Arabian peninsula.

    Why did the Arab conquests leave a far, far more lasting legacy in every facet of their territories than the Mongols? The Mongols left little lasting legacy of their culture practically anywhere – according to you, they had both high IQ and initiative. What gives?

    How come people from Morocco to Lebanon to Iran make pilgrimage to Makkah and Madinah and nobody cares to make pilgrimage to the mountain where the Great Khan was born? Why didn’t people adopt their language?

    just read the relevant moutained-sized reproducible significant stats for goodness

    Waiting for these IQ tests published from the 10th century. Any time now. I’m open to admitting you are 100% right if you can produce them – you will have facts on your side.

    As for stats, I posted a video by Prof. Flynn talking about how IQ is a moving target within our own lifetimes. How are we supposed to take seriously the idea they have remained constant throughout history?

    Peace.

  216. Talha says:
    @AaronB

    Hey AaronB,

    can you recommend any good books on Sufism?

    When it comes to Sufism (which we call the science of tassawuf – the science of spiritual purification so that one can worship God as if one sees Him) I would stay away from Orientalist or non-Muslim works simply because a person that has never tasted coffee can hardly be relied upon to describe its taste and that is one of the key words Sufis use to describe their experience or states – that of “taste”. There are a few that come to my mind right away – any of these titles is fine:

    https://www.meccabooks.com/22-tasawwuf

    But, in my mind, the most high-yield books of them are these short treatises:

    https://www.meccabooks.com/208-sufism-and-islam-9789957230258.html

    https://www.meccabooks.com/361-the-degrees-of-the-soul-shaykh-abd-al-khaliq-al-shabrawi-9781872038131.html

    https://www.meccabooks.com/314-inner-dimensions-of-islamic-worship-9780860371250.html

    https://www.meccabooks.com/403-sufism-good-character-9780972835831.html

    More comprehensive:

    https://www.meccabooks.com/41-sea-without-shore-a-manual-of-the-sufi-path-9781590080665.html

    https://www.meccabooks.com/372-purification-of-the-heart-signs-symptoms-and-cures-of-the-spiritual-diseases-of-the-heart-9780985565909.html

    Two online lecture series are excellent:

    (This is from the perspective of the Sufi order I belong to.)

    http://untotheone.com/public/the-sufi-path-cd/

    Spiritually minded Europeans I have met seem to viscerally reject Christianity

    The spiritual collapse of a tradition as immense as Christianity is something for the world to cry over. Wise men like Belloc warned about it decades ago. And I have noticed the same trend you have; even those who still subscribe to it seem to hold onto it as a negative identity in opposition to those things they don’t wish to be. I see them talking about; we will or should implement policy A, B or C – but I simply do not hear them mention God much. That He has their back, that they should rely on Him or turn back to Him in remorse. If you have belief in the Master of the universe, that the phenomenal world world relies upon each moment for existence, and that He’s with you – then you never lose hope – there’s just no room for it. If you have hope in yourselves, well good luck with that one.

    I remember talking to “Greasy William” about this in the Orthodox Jewish tradition and he said that this kind of spiritual science is discouraged by their scholars. I was shocked by this – is this true?

    In our tradition, many of the Islamic centers of higher learning wouldn’t even take you on unless you had or were willing to rectify yourself at the feet of a spiritual guide.

    Yet Buddhism has been stripped of all its mythological and devotional elements, it’s element of transcendent revelation, and made into something abstract.

    When I read this message by the Dalai Lama, I thought, you guys too?…

    If Europe does go Muslim

    If it does, I have a big feeling that it will go Sufi. Prof. David Cook of Rice Univ. stated that 90% of Western converts are going to the Sufis. Based on my experience, it is the case that converts (especially the ones that become scholars) either go Sufi or at least friendly to Sufism.

    Even places like Albania and Bosnia where many ethnic Europeans became Muslim – it was at the hands of the Sufi Orders:
    “The history of the Naqshbandi Order in Bosnia and other Balkan states is quite old. Many tekkes (khānqāh in Persian) of the Naqshbandi Order are still functional in Bosnia, and followers frequent them for receiving spiritual training and performing dhikr.”

    http://maktabah.org/blog/?p=3130

    “Many other tekkes in this area were also built in the 15th century. In Sarajevo alone there were 47 at one time, many of which are now demolished.”

    http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/bosnia-s-dervishes-in-a-spin-over-rebuilt-tekke

    The Salafi-Wahhabi route gives most Westerners (and most Muslims to be honest) an allergic reaction, the only people I see that gravitate to it in larger number are certain sections of the African American community, but even among them, there has been a change towards Sufism once many discovered how intertwined it was in the lives of the people of West Africa (from where many of their ancestors came). There was a time the many people in Europe and the West used to read translations of Sufi poetry from the Persian mystics (Goethe comes to mind). Rumi is still popular, though they’ve tried to make him into some kind of a hippy from his life as a serious mystic + scholar of the Hanafi school.

    The Salafi-Wahhabi interpretation is being abandoned more and more – the rise and fall of Daesh was likely the death-knell on a serious level. I haven’t heard much from them at all lately (other than when their extremists run over people with trucks or something) – the ones making the big stink in the community now are the post-modernist/reformist Muslims.

    But that merely means he noticed they had close affinities.

    Most mystical or spiritual traditions actually come to some similar conclusions because – ultimately – the metaphysical reality is one (like you mentioned about quantum mechanics). The differences arise from interpretation – that’s where revelation comes in to draw boundary lines. The link to India is difficult to draw historically because the Sufi Orders have chains of transmission; one takes from one’s teacher who took from their teacher who…all the way back to God through the Arch-angel Gabriel (pbuh). For instance, here is one of those chains for the Shadhili Order – it all goes through people of Arabia, the Levant or Persia before going West through Morocco and winding back in the Levant:

    http://damas.nur.nu/148/pages/tasawwuf/shadhili/silsila

    Now mine does wind through Sufi-scholars in India, but that is late in the game, much was already formulated by the Khawajagan (“the masters”) of Central Asia.

    An Islamic Europe, to be sure, would have its own peculiar flavor, perhaps, heavily influenced by Sufism.

    Absolutely agree much like how the Javans and Malays and Senegalese have their own peculiar flavor. And I think they (ethnic Europeans) would be granted a huge influence in – if not leadership of – the Muslim world (I certainly wouldn’t mind). Much like the Persians or the Turks when they took on Islam.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  217. AaronB says:
    @Talha

    Thanks for all those sources Talha, I’m going to look into them.

    Good advice about not trusting Western sources I’ve found it to be the same way with Buddhism. It’s astonishing how mangled Buddhism becomes in the hands of Western writers.

    The few writers who are exceptions, for some reason mostly Germans, are generally ignored.

    The popular writers on Buddhism in America today can’t really say what it’s about, because Americans simply won’t buy books about the need to transcend this material world.

    That’s the exact reason I asked you for advice, because I knew otherwise I’d have to wade through tons of junk and reinterpretations to fit American sensibilities utterly falsifying the true message.

    Only someone who basically cares about spiritual things can write about them.

    You’re right about the tragedy of Christianity in the West, but it was five hundred years in the making, really.

    Somehow the spirit has utterly deserted Christianity – a magnificent world-denying religion has come to mean wealth, power, material “civilization”, the exact opposite of what it once stood for.

    It’s some kind of stark warning, kind of scary really.

    When Rome broke away from the Eastern church in the eleventh century, it was because Rome wanted to be the supreme Christian leader. The East was willing to grant Rome primacy among equals, but this wasn’t enough.

    So you see, so early, the Western problem beginning – Ego, desire for supremacy and power.

    As for Judaism, I’m not quite sure what you mean, but it’s basic orientation is heavily materialistic and it does discourage mysticism, and any excessive spirituality.

    Asceticism is expressly forbidden, and this material world is meant to be enjoyed, and the accumulation of wealth is lauded.

    The Hasidim in the seventeenth century tried to introduce a sorely lacking mystic element by reviving old gnostic ideas but were not really able to free themselves from the basic materialism of Judaism.

    They were initially favorable to asceticism, but quickly moved towards the position that physical pleasures, sex, fine food, drink, are meant to be enjoyed, however this time for the sake of God, while some of the elite Rabbis reserved for themselves the higher practice of asceticism.

    To enjoy this world for the sake of God, not for your own sake, and not for the sake of pleasures in themselves, is obviously a step towards asceticism, but characteristically, mainstream Judaism interprets this as an intrinsically favorable attitude towards physical pleasures.

    A poor man is considered “as dead”, and to be at the furthest remove from God (!) – a wicked man is not considered as dead, but a poor man..

    I asked my orthodox friends about this, a few had the decency to look uncomfortable, but none denounced it, and a few defended it, using rhetoric, posturing, and scholastic logic.

    I consider Judaism like three fourths an ethnic competition manual for the purposes of gaining power, and one fourth genuine spirituality.

    It is the one spiritual path that has no real mysticism (!), and the only one I will not seriously consider.

    I would like to say that Jews act bad mostly against their religion, but the sad truth is that the religion itself, the way it is today, is heavily implicated.

    Can anyone wonder at the Jewish obsession with money when one is told that failure to acquire much of it qualifies one for literally the lowest rung on the religious scale?

    That itself speaks volumes!

    The best part of Judaism culminated in the Prophets and in ecclesiastes, and passed over into Christianity – alas, the ancestors of today’s Jews chose the Judaism of the book of Joshua!

    Well, sorry for that screed!

    Yes, the day Dalai Lama has taken to trying to make a magnificent other-worldly and transcendent tradition fit the sensibilities of modern Americans – a fatal step.

    Thic Naht Hanh is another one who does this, and Americans buy up his books.

    Goethe and some of the other Romantics rediscovered some of the ancient spiritual laws after they practically died out in Europe after the Scientific Revolution.

    Goethe was still a reasonably spiritual man, although after him the deluge.

    Rene Guenon became a Sufi, but reading him he seems bitter, angry, arrogant, elitist in a bad way, without love and compassion, although what he says is often very good.

    That’s great news that Sufism is so popular!

    Maybe there is hope.

    As for Indian roots, that’s just speculation. Schop thought the ancient Egyptians were also inspired by India. He basically thought India was the ur-tradition of all genuine spirituality anywhere.

    But like you say affinities exist because the truth is One.

    Well, thanks for your helpful reply and sorry for my over-long and meandering reply, Talha!

  218. Talha says:

    sorry for my over-long and meandering reply

    Are you kidding me – these spiritual matters are far more interesting to me than politics.

    It is the one spiritual path that has no real mysticism

    That always caught me off-guard about it.

    Asceticism is expressly forbidden…A poor man is considered “as dead”, and to be at the furthest remove from God

    Are you serious about that??!! Do you have a reference? Wow! The Prophet (pbuh) is reported to have said:
    “By Allah, it is not poverty I fear for you, but rather I fear you will be given the wealth of the world just as it was given to those before you. You will compete for it just as they competed for it and it will destroy you just as it destroyed them.”

    My teachers have taught me that one can enjoy the pleasures of this world as long as; 1) they are in moderation, 2) do not distract from the ultimate goal of drawing closer to God and 3) one is thankful to God for them. Looking down upon the poor would be a spiritual disease. They say that once one has enough for a reasonable life that meets their needs, one should look for opportunities to serve the poor with their wealth. Constantly looking to “upgrade” is just downright silly – then it becomes a distraction and not a means.

    I forget which shaykh said it, may have been Shaykh Sirhindi (ra) who said; the phenomenal world is like an ocean and your soul is carried across to your destination by your ship. The ship needs the water to make its way through so the water is necessary to the journey, but if one foolishly brings the water onto the boat, then it will flounder and sink.

    The biggest thing they have been warning about recently, with big glaring red lights are the sins of the eyes – and the fruits of not being careful about this is all over the news right now. As a scholar said; “The heart is the citadel of the spirit and it has gates which must be guarded.”

    Americans buy up his books

    Yes – a big problem are the “popular” spiritualism which to me is a lot about reaffirming the ego/self rather than negating and looking past it.

    This may be of interest – I have not read it all yet, but I noted that it has a very interesting essay in the end by Sh. Hamza Yusuf (one of the authors I suggested) in which he mentions the opinion of Imam Sharastani (ra) who stated that it is possible that the one people call the Buddha (if the descriptions are accurate) may have been the man (al-Kihdr – the “Green One”) mentioned in the Qur’an who taught the Prophet Moses (pbuh).

    http://www.islambuddhism.com/docs/CommonGround.pdf

    That’s great news that Sufism is so popular!

    Also – and this is big deal – most converts coming into Islam from the West are women. Estimates are around 3/4. Women are naturally spiritual creatures – something extraordinary about the capacity of the female soul – it may have something to do with them bearing children – that their bodies are vessels for and the locus of multiple souls.

    Anyway, they also fit very naturally into Sufism. Shaikh Nuh (one of the authors I suggested), who is a convert who became a scholar and spiritual guide mentioned in one of his talks that the students who made the most rapid progress on the spiritual path were simple housewives whose entire routine centered around humble and selfless service to their families. Apparently what draws the attention of the Divine is not what makes the evening news.

    Peace.

  219. AaronB says:

    Yes, sadly, Jews do think like that. Try this

    http://www.come-and-hear.com/nedarim/nedarim_64.html#64b_11

    Here is the relevant quote from the Talmud-

    “And it was taught: Four are accounted as dead: A poor man, a leper, a blind person, and one who is childless.”

    Here’s the note at the bottom –

    “Possibly the inclusion of the poor and childless was directed against the early Christian exaltation of poverty and celibacy.”

    I know also that Maimonides mentions this quote, you can probably find the link somewhere. I have discussed it with orthodox friends.

    Maimonides also says one is forbidden to live below the level of wealth one has! If you are rich, you are forbidden to live simply, although you are also forbidden to live extravagantly if you cannot afford it.

    The underlying idea of Judaism is clear, the physical world is an end in itself – it is not to be transcended.

    As for the idea that the poor man cannot be close to God (!), I read that in Arye Kaplan, a modern orthodox writer highly respected and widely read in the orthodox community, who was basing it on traditional sources.

    Kaplan claims because the nature of the Divine is to give generously, and the poor man cannot give, so he is farthest from God – he’s right about the Divine, but how completely does he miss the point! And how typically materialistic!

    No Jew denies this – if you know any orthodox Jews, ask them. It is a widely known teaching and will only be defended not denied.

    Look, to be fair there are some good teaching about poor people – you are expected to treat them kindly and generosity and charity are commanded virtues. There is a lot of charity among Jews. And you are not supposed to treat them with cobtempt. But there is a strong and inescapable current of condescension verging on contempt for poor people – and this from the religious point of view, not as a social corruption that had crept in by accident!

    A poor person is as dead, and cannot be close to God, but be nice to them, and give them charity. What attitude does this really express, and how does this affect the young Jews attitude towards money?

    There are also passages which say that one must limit time spent in business in order to study, etc.

    But the overall tone, and the balance of the passages, is clear. By no stretch can the Jewish attitude to money be compared to Sufism, Christianity, Buddhism, or Hinduism.

    Your idea that we are carried over this earth to our final destination expresses the proper atritude, in my view – we are pilgrims here, and this is not our ultimate home. We are not to take this world too seriously. It is not an end in itself.

    Ah, that is interesting about the Buddha and Mohammed!

    And I appreciate the humility.When I discuss Buddhism with my Jewish friends the most important thing to them is to prove to me that it really has a Jewish origin (really), not whether it can really lead to salvation.

    Very interesting about women as well – yes, spirituality itself requires femininity of us, and the mystics usually describe our relationship to God in feminine terms. Perhaps it’s because women are naturally remote from quests for power and wealth, at least traditionally, and so more receptive to the spirit.

    Which is why feminism was needed to convince women that the best thing in life was to pursue power and wealth like men and sever their natural affinity with the spirit.

    I tell my sister, who is a feminist and constantly in a bad mood as a result of her desire for power, that she is the victim of the biggest fraud in history. Power will not make us happy, and men were not privileged to pursue it.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @Talha
    , @Talha
  220. AaronB says:
    @AaronB

    And come to think of it, why is a blind man or a leper accounted as dead? Can’t a blind man be holy and wise?

    And a childless man, too. Why beat up on these people? Seems sadistic.

    What is common to all these categories is that they cannot participate in the communal quest for earthly wealth and power. In the case of the blind man he is really cut off from the physical world in a basic way, and if this world is an end in itself, then he may well be regarded as dead.

    If true life is in the Beyond, and this earth just a way station for pilgrims, then the powerful man, the rich man, the mighty man of war, might be accounted as dead.

    It all depends on where you think our true Good lies – in the beyond, or on this earth.

    Judaism answers this question differently than the other religions.

  221. Talha says:
    @AaronB

    Hey AaronB,

    As for the idea that the poor man cannot be close to God

    This is really weird – coming from my background it is almost unfathomable! The Prophet (pbuh) was reported to have made a prayer that he be resurrected among the poor and when his wife asked why, he replied – “Because they will enter Paradise forty years before the rich. Do not turn away a poor man, Aisha, even if all you can give is half a date. If you love the poor and bring them near you, Aisha, Allah will bring you near Him on the Day of Resurrection”.

    No Jew denies this – if you know any orthodox Jews, ask them.

    A lot of them live near me – if I get a chance to talk to one of them, I will ask.

    Look, to be fair there are some good teaching about poor people – you are expected to treat them kindly and generosity and charity are commanded virtues. There is a lot of charity among Jews. And you are not supposed to treat them with cobtempt

    That is good – at least there is some sort of balance there in that sense.

    Ah, that is interesting about the Buddha and Mohammed!

    just a clarification, Imam Sharastani’s statement was about al-Khidr (who might have been the Buddha) and the prophet Moses (pbuh). Again, this is only speculation because we simply have no solid evidence. But we do know, as Muslims, that there were messengers and prophets sent to all nations. Some of them were more successful than others and some of their message has been corrupted or lost. For instance, we know there are records of a wise man named Lao Tzu from China. The Tao Te Ching is attributed to him, but there is no final verdict on whether those are his exact words:

    https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/laozi/#DatAutLao

    the most important thing to them is to prove to me that it really has a Jewish origin (really)

    That is super annoying. I spoke to an Orthodox rabbi once at LAX waiting for a flight – good conversation in all – but he made the claim that Jews taught the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) everything. I had to struggle not to laugh. From our perspective, Semites do not and never have had a monopoly on Divine revelation:
    “And certainly We sent messengers before you: there are some of them that We have mentioned to you and there are others whom We have not mentioned to you…” (40:78)

    “For We assuredly sent amongst every nation a messenger, (with the Command), ‘Serve God, and eschew Evil’: of the people were some whom God guided, and some on whom error became inevitably (established). So travel through the earth, and see what was the end of those who denied (the Truth).” (16:36)

    Now this doesn’t mean we think every belief is valid, but rather the starting point for many religions could have easily been the same Divine guidance, but it was simply lost or corrupted over time.

    Do Jews think they are the only ones God has revealed His message to?

    Power will not make us happy, and men were not privileged to pursue it.

    Exactly – it is also prohibited for men to seek out status and power – this is another spiritual disease.

    Also, just listened to this talk on the way home from work – hits practically every point we have been discussing. Shaykh Abdal Hakim Murad is also a convert scholar and learned tasawwuf at the feet of the scholars of Yemen (well worth the time):

    Peace.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  222. Talha says:
    @AaronB

    Another thing that I personally find fascinating – again these are speculative, but interesting points of convergence. Let’s take the idea that possibly the figure known to Muslims as al-Khidr (the “Green One”) who some scholars say lives and dwells upon the earth until the Day of Judgement is possibly the same as the Buddha. Some scholars have also mentioned that al-Khidr makes Hajj along with the Prophet Elijah (pbuh) every year – but these are based on weak narrations, so these things can’t be held up as solid evidence for a belief or claim. Nevertheless, the ihram of the male Hajj pilgrim bears a striking resemblance to the robes of Buddhist monks – even the single bared shoulder (apart from the colors):

    https://www.google.com/search?biw=1344&bih=774&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=ziQoWpWbMdC0jwPtxoTQDQ&q=hajj+ihram+men&oq=hajj+ihram+men&gs_l=psy-ab.3…94198.97349.0.97649.14.14.0.0.0.0.141.1521.0j12.12.0&#8230;.0…1c.1.64.psy-ab..2.9.1144…0j0i67k1j0i8i30k1j0i24k1j0i30k1.0.5aIbuywdIS4#imgdii=4yUNIPuNUaJFKM:&imgrc=8p3nud__RfmOIM:

    https://www.google.com/search?biw=1344&bih=774&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=qCUoWpOmHteCjwPckYqQDQ&q=buddhist+monk+robes&oq=buddhist+monk+robes&gs_l=psy-ab.12…0.0.0.8987.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0….0…1c..64.psy-ab..0.0.0….0.7HiWcPHy1HI

    Even more fascinating when you consider that shaving the head for males is part of the ritual of the Hajj.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  223. AaronB says:
    @Talha

    Yes, it is nearly unfathomable to me as well – it has no counterpart in any other spiritual tradition, and goes completely against the Spirit.

    It can only be explained by Judaism being a mixed-type tradition – part political manual, part religion.

    Judaism never matured into a universal religion.

    These two incompatible elements within Judaism, the spiritual and the material, eventually divided into Christianity and Talmudism, respectively.

    The Talmud is by far the holiest book for modern Jews.

    When I was young I used to speak derisively of the Talmud, bringing down upon my head the fury of the Rabbis. Already an obscure spiritual impulse was awakening within me.

    I regard Judaism as a sort of archaic relic from before the age of universal religions.

    And yet, there are echos of genuine spirituality even within Judaism, and I believe that Jews will turn to the Spirit after the power phase they are now in exhausts itself.

    The Hasidim were an abortive attempt to catch up with the world of the Spirit, but the dead weight of Jewish materialism exerted too powerful a pull.

    But such sn attempt will come again, and I believe Talmudic Judaism has no genuine future. Talmudic Judaism triumphed with modernity, which is its spiritual child, and a new bifurcation will come – the material elements of Judaism will blend seamlessly into modernity, and Jews interested in the Spirit will reform Judaism beyond all recognition.

    You and I both know, Talha, that empire is always followed by exhaustion, and Power by Spirit.

    Do Jews think they are the only ones God has revealed His message to?

    Pretty much, crazy as it sounds. They are the source of all values and religion in the world.

    If Buddhism has any good in it, then some sncient connection to Judaism must be found.

    I have had Jews tell me Marcus Aurelius got his ideas from Jews, when I was into stoicism.

    When I was into Christianity, I had Jews complacently assure me that Jesus got all his ideas from the Talmud, he just went a bit too far.

    I was tempted to ask which Talmudic idea did Jesus borrow, the part where you can steal from and deceive non-Jews? Or the part where the Talmud says Jesus is boiling in excrement in hell?

    This is also with regard to modern achievements – whenever I mention some great thinker or doer, I am frequently told he probably had Jewish blood.

    I was once told that Von Neumann, an accomplished but minor early 20th century Jewish figure, was far greater than Isaac Newton. I was told this quite seriously.

    And how can it be any different? Materialism implies individualism, which implies narcissism and ego.

    You and I may smile at such childishness, but to them or is deadly serious.

    But I do think this whole Jewish nightmare is finally winding to a close.

    And you and I can both appreciate, Talha, the immense suffering Jews inflict on themselves as well as others. They are not to be envied, but are the world’s most unhappy people, suffering as they do under the compulsion to acquire power and wealth, without a moments peace.

    • Replies: @Talha
  224. AaronB says:
    @Talha

    Yes, these are interesting connections indeed!

    This is similar to the Indian idea of the Avatara who manifests again and again in this world, at different times and places, when the true light is in danger of bring lost.

    God will never leave mankind without guidance and each region will have a messenger sent to it.

    Whoever the Green Man was, I have no doubt he was an Avatar of of the Divine light.

    Buddhism believes that there have been countless Buddhas who have come to enlighten mankind, and the historical Buddha was just the latest.

    I really think we are due for another Avatar or at least an inspired Teacher. The world is groaning under the weight of its misery.

    And we can talk philosophy as much as we like, but things only really change when a great charismatic religious figure appears on the scene.

    Human thought cannot substitute for the divine immanence which must shine through into this world somehow before real change can happen.

  225. Please don’t stop Aaron, Aaron,
    Please don’t stop Aaron, Aaron….

    Buddhism and Jewdaism, alike!!1

  226. Talha says:
    @AaronB

    I am frequently told he probably had Jewish blood

    This sounds really, really neurotic to be so focused on this kind of thing. I’ll have to take your word for it because I work with mostly secular Jews. But that talk I had with that rabbi did give me a glimpse of this.

    They are not to be envied

    I have been taught not to envy those whose biggest concern in life is worldly:
    “So turn away from him who turns away from Our remembrance, and desires only the life of the world. That is their sum of knowledge. Indeed, your Lord is most knowing of who strays from His way, and He is most knowing of who is guided.” (53:29-30)

    “And keep yourself patient [by being] with those who call upon their Lord in the morning and the evening, seeking His countenance. And let not your eyes pass beyond them, desiring adornments of the worldly life, and do not obey one whose heart We have made heedless of Our remembrance and who follows his desire and whose affair is ever [in] neglect.” (18:28)

    suffering as they do under the compulsion to acquire power and wealth, without a moments peace

    This world and its trappings are the Abode of Tribulation and Trials – there is no peace here – it is like trying to quench thirst with sand – that is not its function. And there was never meant to be as this is not Paradise. The only peace one finds is in what transcends it:
    “Who have believed and whose hearts have contentment in the remembrance of Allah. Verily in the remembrance of Allah do hearts find contentment.” (13:28)

    As you said – I cannot believe at times that so much of this part of the Christian tradition has simply vanished.

    I really think we are due for another Avatar or at least an inspired Teacher.

    Well, we are awaiting the Mahdi (the “Guided One”) to put things in order.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  227. AaronB says:
    @Talha

    Thanks for this very interesting conversation Talha, so much better than politics.

    And thanks for all the quotes keep them coming – they are always a delight to read, and they really show the amazing side of Islam that made so many Europeans in the past fascinated by it even if they didn’t convert (like one of my favourite eccentrics, Sir Richard Burton), and that so many of the Islam haters today don’t get to see.

    I await the Mahdi, or the future Buddha, or whatever form the Divine is pleased to take, with you!

    • Replies: @Talha
  228. Talha says:
    @AaronB

    Hey AaronB,

    My pleasure. I understand why the conversation usually goes one way about Islam – because politics is usually where it gets the news. But it really is a very small part of the religion. It’s one people who are very interested in worldly matters and power politics are most interested in for sure, but in the grand scheme of things, it’s not what matters the most. I can’t think of a single convert I know that became Muslim because of its stand on political matters.

    One of my teachers mentioned regarding Tasawwuf (I believe in that lecture series I posted) – that there are very few books on the subject compared to other subjects in our tradition. And that is by design – Tasawwuf is simply not something you read about from books – it is something you become and practice through a living guide.

    Peace.

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