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In Vox, Matthew Yglesias comes around to largely agreeing with my interpretation of politics since c. 2012-2014: it’s driven by Democrats becoming more extremist on race. But, to Yglesias, that’s more or less a Good Thing. Or, to be precise, he subtly suggests he has some trepidations, but to spell them out would get him stomped by his own side, so whaddaya whaddaya?

The Great Awokening

A hidden shift is revolutionizing American racial politics — and could transform the future of the Democratic Party.

By Matthew Yglesias on April 1, 2019 9:25 am

For all the attention paid to the politics of the far right in the Trump era, the biggest shift in American politics is happening somewhere else entirely.

In the past five years, white liberals have moved so far to the left on questions of race and racism that they are now, on these issues, to the left of even the typical black voter.

This change amounts to a “Great Awokening” — comparable in some ways to the enormous religious foment in the white North in the years before the American Civil War. It began roughly with the 2014 protests in Ferguson, Missouri, when activists took advantage of ubiquitous digital video and routine use of social media to expose a national audience in a visceral way to what otherwise might have been a routine local news story.

Of course, it turned out that The Establishment’s Ferguson Narrative was something between a Hate Hallucination and a Hate Hoax, but …

“If there had been no Twitter or Facebook,” Columbia University’s John McWhorter, an early and somewhat skeptical observer of the Awokening, tells me, “Trayvon [Martin] and Mike Brown would have had about as much impact on white thought as, say, Amadou Diallo did.”

A big part of what happened is that White Progressive Twitter assumed it must take the accuracy of Black Twitter about Trayvon and Michael Brown on faith — If you can’t trust random black people on the Internet to get the story straight, who can you trust? — which twice turned out to be a disastrous mistake.

But of course the complicity of the Obama Administration working with the tame Respectable Media in all this can’t be overlooked either.

Pollsters began to see a rapid, sustained change. White Democrats suddenly started expressing dramatically higher levels of concern about racial inequality and discrimination, while showing greater enthusiasm for racial diversity and immigration. (While political disputes around race are often found under the same umbrella as gender and sexual orientation, where attitudes are also shifting, the relatively recent, relatively sudden change that constitutes the Great Awokening is fundamentally about race and its relationship to national identity.)

There’s also a certain paradox to the Awokening. As white liberals became more vocal about racial inequality, more racially conservative Democrats left the party and helped power Donald Trump’s electoral victory. This backlash gives the impression that there’s a surging tide of white racism in America.

… But the fundamental reality is that the Awokening has inspired a large minority of white Americans to begin regarding systemic racial discrimination as a fundamental problem in American life — opening up the prospects of sweeping policy change when the newly invigorated anti-racist coalition does come to power.

After all, no other explanation for the continuing failures of black people — whether getting into Stuyvesant HS or the murder of Nipsey Hussle — than the systemic evilness of white people is conceivable. That’s Science!

What? You are saying that evil White Nationalists like Charles Murray have collected data pointing to an alternative explanation? Well, that just proves the scientific evilness of whites.

While opinion on LGBTQ issues has been evolving in a broad, steady manner for years, the shift on racial thinking that constitutes the Great Awokening is of more recent vintage. Trump’s presidency itself is probably a driver of this, since there is a tendency well-known to political scientists for public opinion to move in the opposite direction of the person who occupies the White House.

The change, however, appears to predate Trump and, in fact, to have relatively little to do with the calendar of presidential politics. Instead, polling from the Pew Center shows that as late as 2014, most Americans believed there was no longer any need for the country to make changes to address black-white inequality.

Consequently, few people believed discrimination was the main barrier to black upward mobility. These numbers then started to change rapidly, with the shift driven overwhelmingly by a change in the views of self-identified Democrats.

I call this the growing antiquarianism of the conventional wisdom: New Deal Redlining! Emmett Till! Liberals used to be obsessed with how everything changed in The Sixties, but now their leading intellectual, Ta-Nehesi Coates, can’t remember much that has happened since Emmett Till: All Is Fog.

The timing of this change suggests that the Ferguson protests were a key flashpoint in changing thinking about the discrimination issue. But Brian Schaffner, a Tufts University political scientist, says the beginnings of the shift were visible even during Barack Obama’s first term.

“I don’t think it’s just a reaction to events,” Schaffner says. Rather, “even prior to Ferguson, people take cues from elites,” and Democratic elites were beginning to signal to the rank and file that they should take systemic racism concerns more seriously.

Who could have predicted that after Obama’s 2012 re-election, his administration would start pushing the pedal to the metal on racial resentment?

Obama’s 2012 observation that “if I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon” is just one small example of how elite actors have helped push a shift in whites’ perception of race. And the shift, once underway, became mutually reinforcing. Liberal white audiences became increasingly interested in black intellectuals’ conceptions of race and racism in America. Back in April 2015, the social justice group Race Forward produced a series of videos starring Jay Smooth trying to explain the concept of “systemic racism” to a mass audience. Hillary Clinton used the term in a February 2016 speech.

Trump, of course, responded to this with his own racial discourse bringing white identity politics into play in a more explicit way than had been seen in a generation or two. But that evolution was two-sided.

In other words, Democrats were the aggressors, and some (but hardly all) Republicans responded with intellectual self-defense.

Schaffner observes that “Clinton talked a lot more about racial justice issues during the 2016 campaign than Obama did during his campaigns” — further priming the minority of white Americans who supported her to adopt a more sweeping view of racial justice. …

The extent to which that model has become mainstream among Democratic Party leaders is now evident. …

At roughly the same time, there has been a large increase in the number of Americans who express positive attitudes about immigration — driven almost entirely by shifting views of Democrats.

The sheer scale of this change is far too large to have been caused by the much-discussed rising Latino share of the electorate.

It’s almost as if the party that benefits from importing ringers to vote for it has decided that importing ringers to vote for it Is Who We Are.

The biggest change in attitudes on race has been most pronounced among white Democrats.

Opinion leaders often miss the scale and recency of these changes because progressive elites have espoused racial liberalism for a long time. Sean McElwee, of the left-wing policy organization Data for Progress, did an analysis of General Social Survey data, which shows that throughout the 1980s, ’90s, and 2000s, most white Democrats thought African Americans’ lack of individual initiative was the main source of racial inequality in America.

The notion that Obama’s ascension to the presidency would usher in a “post-racial” era of American life, of course, proved false. And not just because of a white backlash to his administration or to the growing diversity of the American population, but because white Democrats dramatically shifted their views of the centrality of racial discrimination in American life after the election of a black man to the highest office in the land.

It’s a cookbook!

It’s almost as if as nonwhites become more powerful, more whites endorse the narrative of nonwhite powerlessness. (It might be interesting for somebody to do a Foucault-style analysis of white postmodernists’ shifting responses to shifts in power.)

Some of this is a compositional effect. As Obama pushed racially conservative whites out of the Democratic Party, the remaining Democrats are more racially liberal. But using Voter Study Group data, McElwee is able to show that people who consistently self-identified as Democrats changed their views between 2011 and 2016.

Zach Goldberg, a doctoral candidate at Georgia State University, observes that on key measures of racial attitudes, white liberals’ opinion has moved to the left of where black and Latino opinions are. White liberals are now less likely than African Americans to say that black people should be able to get ahead without any special help.

White liberals also have warmer feelings about immigrants than Hispanics do.

And, critically, white liberals are much more enthusiastic about the idea that diversity makes the United States a better place to live than are blacks or Latinos. Non-liberal whites are least enthusiastic of all, which is not enormously surprising, but Latino views of this are closer to those of non-liberal whites than to white liberals.

The Awokening has driven big platform shifts

Back in 1996, the Democratic Party platform read like something out of a Trump campaign ad.

Perhaps the clearest sign of the shift, however, is the completely upturned politics of reparations….

And much more. You can read it there.

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  1. Arclight says:

    How much is the swing in white Democratic voters’ views on race is a result of most of them living nowhere near their favorite minorities, whereas the less charitable view of white Democrats of the 70s, 80s, and 90s were due to there still being a large working class urban white population that lived in close proximity to people very different from themselves?

    I have personally found that the most obnoxiously race-conscious whites I know are people who had middle upper class childhoods far, far from the more exciting urban neighborhoods and if they have any experience of urban living, it’s in mostly in fashionable locations made safe and vibrant over the past couple of decades by moving the prior residents out.

    • Replies: @Prester John
  2. J.Ross says: • Website

    “We thought it was far-right, but instead it’s traditional.”
    People are okay with stupid panicking over phantom Nazis until their foreheads are dented by how destructive this is; at the worst end you have murders, loss of rights, arrests, property forfeiture, firings, and censorship over perceived or proximate Nazism, and at the lighter end (although hopefully it’s still dumb enough to redpill folks) you have evacuating an outdoor concert event because somebody might have had a tattoo that sort of resembles some kind of far-right symbol, as just happened in New Zealand:

    “The evacuation of thousands of concert-goers from the Homegrown Music Festival last night was reportedly sparked by a tattoo.

    Police said on Sunday morning that initial concerns were “to do with a tattoo” however they said the concern “was a mistake”.

    It has been reported the tattoo was thought to be linked to far-right ideology, however, it turned out it was traditional.

    Around 5000 concertgoers were evacuated from the main stage at the Homegrown Festival in Wellington around 9.20pm.”

  3. Anonymous[322] • Disclaimer says:

    Ironically, gentrification made whites even more trusting of blacks. With lower crime rates, blackness became an abstraction for lots of affluent urban whites.

    In the bronze age of rising urban crime in the 70s and 8os — also prior to entire generations being raised on PC — , even white liberals would have been too aware of grim reality to be ideologically ‘woke’.

    • Replies: @Prester John
  4. Whiskey says: • Website

    Bottom line, Jorge Ramos says America is Mexico now, nothing you can do about it, and Whites and White men are pretty much toast.

    He’s not wrong.

    But what are the implications? Massive, Civil War on racial grouping lines, including between Northern, “enlightened/saved” religious Whites (original flyover White sin, saved Woke) … and those BadWhites.

    After all, who will pay the reparations? Cool Box Wine Aunties? Feminists? Journalists (our priest caste)? Hollywood (our royalty?) Amazon? Wal-Mart? Apple? Of course not.

    YOU you Deplorable You will pay. And pay. And pay. And pay. Ultimately it will come down to the most valuable commodity on earth — the forced labor of White men in a nation marked by:

    *Ever increasing poor non-Whites demanding lots and lots of gibs.
    *Ever increasing hostility of elite Whites who are “saved” to those who are not.

    This is a recipe for total Civil War, on the level of Pol Pot, Mao, and Stalin/Lenin.

    Lets be clear — the kind of woman that throws a fit and demands that the police ARREST an elderly White man for wearing a MAGA hat, White, female, entitled, ultra liberal — will demand that us Deplorables be shot at best, at worst worked to death in a concentration camp. That is the future and we would be foolish to not figure that most White women fall somewhere into that camp. White women are particularly vulnerable to feelz and bitter, sex based resentment of the men around her not being Brad Pitt.

  5. Jack D says:

    in Ferguson, Missouri, when activists took advantage of ubiquitous digital video

    Right , remember the famous video of the Gentle Giant begging for his life – “Hand up. Don’t shoot!” What you don’t? That’s because it never f’ing happened except in the imagination of the “activists”. What video is he talking about?

  6. PhDPepper says:


    “white extremism — an umbrella term encompassing white nationalist, white supremacist, neo-Nazi, xenophobic, anti-Muslim and anti-Semitic ideologies”

    This article lumps in sexual frustration/attention seeking school shootings (Santa Fe), “incel” shootings by a half- Asian rich kid (La Vista), Umpqua school shooting (half-black, again sexual frustration), a German-Iranian shooter in Germany, and yet another incel-type attack in Toronto (again, by a Middle-Eastern (Arabic?Armenian?) man, with white supremacists.

    Note the language: when most people read “white extremists”, they think neo-Nazi types, white men who carry out an act of violence for the purpose of furthering actual white supremacist beliefs, to intimidate ethnic and religious minorities. But here, they’re using it functionally to mean “violence carried out by white people, regardless of motive”. If the fact that many are not white confuses you further, well, where did their social isolation originate from? That’s right- the culture of white supremacy. Anyone can subscribe to white supremacist thinking, but only white people are responsible for it.

    The left is expert at taking established terms and redefining them to encompass broader, often wildly contradictory categories of meaning. Unraveling and exposing this manipulative analysis is a key challenge to overcome. Besides the length of time it takes to do so, the social cost- that of being accused of downplaying the severity of this “crisis”, of being somehow supportive of such actions- is huge. And so one says nothing, and it gets worse.

  7. J.Ross says: • Website

    This article is ostensibly a Stasi clutching his pearls over how long it took YouTube to embrace censorship and extensive nudging. What’s interesting is the gloves-are-off targeting of a certain YouTube executive who will be familiar to iSteve readers.

    I don’t want to correct every mistake this guy makes but the too-confident sneer about Hillary Clinton joining a Satanic cult is surely an intolerably lazy (or deliberately confusing) mischaracterization of Marina Abramovic’s Spirit Cooking performance art event, in which elite millionaires laugh and joke around explicitly Satanic imagery, like a modern Hellfire Club. There’s nothing secret or arguable about this: there are many photographs, taken freely by participants. If you had enough money you could go to one of these. The point isn’t to worship Satan but to sneer at how shocked the unwashed deplorable peasants would be if their horrible peasant eyes could behold such artistic and intellect-proving blasphemy. This is something that really happened and now, one badly-written and sneering sentence at a time, it is being memory holed.

    • Replies: @Trevor H.
  8. There are a lot of charts in the Vox story. It was only glancingly addressed in Yglesias’s text, but I wonder how much of the Awokening was due to the less fanatical Dems boiling off, resulting in a distilled high-proof liberalism in the party vs. how much was due to party members staying and changing their views.

    It’s the old political quandary: do you choose to be electorally smaller but ideologically purer vs. bigger tent with ideological chaos?

    At the moment, Dems seem to have broken through the purity ceiling with their new Muslima caucus, resulting in electorally smaller but with ideological chaos…

  9. Dean says:

    In the past five years, white liberals have moved so far to the left on questions of race and racism that they are now, on these issues, to the left of even the typical black voter.

    Maybe. Or perhaps all those methods they pretend to believe the Russians used to get Trump elected are actually the methods turbocharged to get the many different tribes (the more the merrier) to all uniformly vote Democrat. Except Hillary messed it up and now the plan to turn the country into California may be a little delayed. (e.g. do his claims/stats on white liberals actually hold?)

    • Replies: @J.Ross
  10. @Jack D

    Good catch.

    Yglesias would probably respond that he wasn’t implying that was on video, just that there’s a lot of video about these days … or something …

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    , @anon
    , @Hypnotoad666
  11. Anonymous[128] • Disclaimer says:

    • Replies: @Desiderius
  12. I think it’s the typical smoke screen for women’s issues.

    we’ll see.

  13. Minorities luke-warm on whites; white liberals hate whites. I am not surprised. They are a truly sick bunch.

  14. J.Ross says: • Website

    There was extensive establishmentarian trolling, social media nudging, etc, and still is, but there is not a lot of reason to call it successful, and a lot of it is self-defeatingly obvious or obnoxious. The most effective thing is probably censorship.

  15. “…But the fundamental reality is that the Awokening has inspired a large minority of white Americans to begin regarding systemic racial discrimination as a fundamental problem in American life…”

    Oh, bored identity totally agrees with Fellow Traveling Señor Synagoglesias on that one;

    There’s no a single day that growingly large minority of white Americans doesn’t get bitch-slapped with an inspirational reality check regarding systemic racial discrimination as a fundamental problem in American life.

    That’s exactly what keeps them up all night.

    • Replies: @SFG
  16. J.Ross says: • Website
    @Almost Missouri

    Also he’s talking about party-connected, paid-and-organized astroturf thought leaders (like the Democrat troll in Alabama), who are vlogging and pamphleteering — almost certainly to people who already agree with them. When a normal American clumsily endorses Trump on social media, our great and good dismiss him as KGB.
    I agree strongly with Steve’s point that the much celebrated social media activity was nowhere near as important as the visitation and imprimatur of President Black Jesus, and the aggressive talking-up by the Mighty Wurlitzer. Social media is most useful in circumventing the dinosaurs. When you’re running parallel to stampeding Brachiosaurs, you’re pretty hard to see.

  17. They went to far, too fast. It was a slow boiling to Wokeville, but they had to push too hard. Ferguson, Baltimore, transgender, womyn, it was a rapd massive assault on American tradition and culture.

    They didn’t plan for a reaction. If they had only gone slower, they could have gotten everything…..

    • Replies: @UrbaneFrancoOntarian
    , @Ed
  18. I don’t know who Amadou Diallo is, but, last night, Oklahoma City Thunder guard Russell Westbrook waved off a substituting Hamidou Diallo so he could record two rebounds in their game’s final seconds and post a 20/20/20 line. Westbrook said he dedicated his performance to the memory of his friend Nipsey Hussle.

    Things still appear to be converging, I guess.

  19. @Arclight

    It’s easy for people like H. Clinton to lecture the Unwashed Deplorables from the safety of two-acre zoning.

  20. “but to spell them out would get him stomped by his own side, so whaddaya whaddaya?”

    Well, the guy is an expert on getting stomped, isn’t he?

  21. @Anonymous

    “…even white liberals would have been too aware of grim reality to be ideologically ‘woke’.”

    I.e. Norman Podhoretz

    • Replies: @SFG
  22. @Anthony Wayne

    Even though Russell Westbrook is kind of from the hood or its edges (Hawthorne, CA), where the Beach Boys were from, he owes his NBA career to his dad spending a huge amount of time with him working on his basketball when he was growing up.

    • Replies: @Anthony Wayne
  23. Anonymous[706] • Disclaimer says:

    Not many folks find it fun to be called racist, but the current-year Democrat tends to be the type of person terrified of history’s ever-shifting side. Also, and this is not exactly paradoxical from a Freudian viewpoint, this same person will tend to really, really enjoy the Nazi-punching style of political vengeance, arguably to point of being a fetish. Joe Rogan compared the mania in a wider trans-partisan Internet social context to road rage, a good analogy because it’s surprising when you see someone who you might not otherwise expect to have it, has it bad.

    To modify Jim “The Hammer” Shapiro: I cannot rip out the hearts of those who hurt you; I cannot hand you their severed heads; but getting them banned from PayPal is certainly doable

  24. Trevor H. says:

    Yep. Schaffner and Goldberg specifically say: “people take cues from elites” but if you dare to imply that people take cues from elites well then you are obviously anti-semitic nazi scum who deserve to die.

    And if you dare to ask who these “elites” are, and what their motivations might be, well I can’t even and we have to deplatform you and make sure you can’t use the banking system or the internet–that stuff’s just for us and people we like.

    Next comes your drivers license and voter registration, and I really can’t see why Nazis should be permitted to own property, can you? Private property is just theft from POCs, and of course we “the elites” will manage the redistribution.

  25. bgates says:

    there is a tendency well-known to political scientists for public opinion to move in the opposite direction of the person who occupies the White House.

    Yes, I remember how people like Yglesias described that tendency as well-known from 2008 to 2016, and not at all proof of widespread white racism.

    The notion that Obama’s ascension to the presidency would usher in a “post-racial” era of American life, of course, proved false.

    Yes, I remember how people like Yglesias described that prediction as unlikely but not impossible from 2008 to 2016, and not at all proof of widespread white racism.

    • Replies: @Forbes
  26. @Steve Sailer

    What is it about California’s coastal cities that makes black dads dedicate 10,000 hours to making their kids insanely good at sports?

  27. This essay begins: “In Vox, Matthew Yglesias comes around to largely agreeing with my interpretation of politics since c. 2012-2014: it’s driven by Democrats becoming more extremist on race. But, to Yglesias, that’s more or less a Good Thing. Or, to be precise, he subtly suggests he has some trepidations, but to spell them out would get him stomped by his own side, so whaddaya whaddaya?”

    Can some rhetorician please explain the meaning of the phrase “so waddaya waddaya [why is ‘whaddaya’ repeated?]”.
    seems to be a guide, for non-native readers, to Tom Wolfe’s “The Bonfire of the Vanities”, but it merely notes that this phrase is characteristic of New York City speech, without explaining what it means.

    If I had to guess, I’d take this phrase to mean “so what are you going to do about it?”, with the implication that there’s not much you can do about what is being pointed out. Am I close?

  28. Jack D says:
    @Anthony Wayne

    If Russell Westbrook had married Nipsey Hussle (and after all that’s possible nowadays) then his name would have been Russell Hussle.

    • Replies: @fish
  29. anon[166] • Disclaimer says:
    @Almost Missouri

    I dunno, I give him the benefit of the doubt here. He’s referring to all the live streaming done by various protesters/social media personality opportunists. The SJWs had a ton of outsiders coming in to “protest” and it was fueled in good part by the technology.

    Those types are motivated much more by watching on-the-ground video of people scuffle with and berate cops than they are by reading newsprint.

  30. anon[166] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anthony Wayne

    Hussle was seemingly friends or otherwise acquainted with all of the LA-raised NBA stars. A somewhat surprisingly large number of All-Star caliber players are from the area: Harden, Westbrook, Paul George, Demar DeRozan, Kawhi Leonard. And they’re all of the right generation–born 88-91.

    • Replies: @Ed
    , @Jake
  31. Frank G says:

    These surveys are just measuring what opinions people consider acceptable to publicly hold. Liberals believe the same things they’ve always believed.

  32. @Anthony Wayne

    Hundreds of millions of dollars?

  33. With all this preening righteousness of the democratic Elites in 2016, their utter meltdown after Trump’s Victory becomes more clear. They just don’t like being rejected. No one does. We should have bowed down and worshipped their moral insight, their spiritual superiority. Instead, by voting a hundred eighty degrees in the other direction, we told them essentially to take a flying fuck at a rolling donut. It all makes sense now. They’re hurt. I feel so bad. Soooooo bad.

  34. @Gaius Gracchus

    If they had only gone slower, they could have gotten everything…..

    Meh… in Canada they are speeding up the process massively. There are over one million newcomers each year, including Foreign Worker Visas, new “Canadians”, Student Visas, etc. The plan is to swamp us so fast that the whites don’t even have a chance to get their wits about them and shut everything down.

    • Replies: @anonymous
  35. fish says:
    @Jack D

    If Russell Westbrook had married Nipsey Hussle (and after all that’s possible nowadays) then his name would have been Russell Hussle.

    Or it might have been Nipsey Westbrook…….and that’s just not funny at all.

  36. Dave Pinsen says: • Website

    Speaking of Nipsey Hussle, and the Dems’ rapid shift leftward on race,

    • Replies: @SFG
  37. @Mark Spahn (West Seneca, NY)

    I was shocked to hear so many Midwesterners using the imperative “Yawanna…?” Back East, that was pretty downscale, but it’s ubiquitous here.

  38. @Anthony Wayne

    It’s due to the abundance of patient yet confident black role models.

  39. @Mark Spahn (West Seneca, NY)

    I’m still pissed that you liked that “poem” more than Sylvia Whatsherface.

    In college days, there was this famous hot dog joint and the barker at the order line would say, “Whaddyahave. Whaddyahave. Whaddyahave?” You had to let him go three times before ordering a chili dog, onion rings, and a PC.

    My arteries are still clogged.

  40. The message seems to be that white liberals have mutated into a group of religious nuts.

    Their common creed is an ecstatic belief that all evil stems from the satanic power of “systemic racism.” (Which even Yglesias can’t help but put in scare quotes.)

    White liberals are basically the new Fundamentalists. Personally, whenever I hear the phrase “systemic racism” my mind automatically substitutes the phrase “imaginary racism.” But I guess not everyone gets the gift of faith.

    As an aside, one thing that struck me is how anyone knowledgeable in HBD would actually tend to seem “liberal” according to the conventional interpretation of the GSS. For example, if I were asked if “Blacks could achieve the same as whites if only they worked as hard,” I would have to honestly answer “No.”

  41. @Almost Missouri

    The only video I remember was the Gentle Giant throttling some poor Vietnamese store clerk.

    • Replies: @Jack D
  42. @Anthony Wayne

    Oklahoma City Thunder guard Russell Westbrook

    Russell Westbrook = Sell truss, woke bro.

  43. @Jack D

    Right , remember the famous video of the Gentle Giant begging for his life…

    What video is he talking about?

    This one?

    Or this?

  44. Meh! LGBTQPPIQWERTYUIOP is the new Black in American politics.

  45. @Anthony Wayne

    California has a large population conveniently concentrated in three areas, San Francisco, Los Angeles, and San Diego, so most of the population has reasonable access to development programs, coaches, and sports-oriented high schools. California’s good weather was important for Tiger Woods and Venus and Serena Williams.

    In the last 12 months, I have learned of three athletes with dedicated fathers or a step-father that put in the hours and none are from California: Kyler Murray (Dallas, TX suburb, baseball and football), Naomi Osaka (Fort Lauderdale, FL, tennis), and Zion Williamson (Spartanburg, SC, basketball).

    • Replies: @Anthony Wayne
    , @anon
  46. Ed says:

    There’s a town in a 98% white town in Vermont that has flown the Black Lives Matter flag for over a year. These folks aren’t woke they’re just silly and don’t have to live with any of the consequences of their politics.

    • Replies: @anon
  47. Ed says:

    Several of the LA stars are gang affiliated. DeSean Jackson was friends or acquaintances with Nipsey and he’s known to have gang affiliations and a rumored member. He was at some memorial for Nipsey a few days ago.

  48. Ed says:
    @Gaius Gracchus

    Yup I think for conservatives of the traditional variety the gay marriage ruling was the turning point. Around that time Gov. Walker was either leading or near the top of the GOP primary polls. He made a statement trashing the ruling but then took it back, he plummeted in the polls afterwards and then crashed out altogether not too long after.

    The irony is Trump doesn’t care about gay marriage and supports it. However GOP voters wanted someone to stand up to these people and he fit the bill. In Wisconsin a Supreme Court candidate has said gay sex should be illegal and opened a school that bars gays from its premises won this week. While the margin was tight the increase in GOP voters from previous Supreme elections was 150k. The Dems were comparatively flat. This after the GOP chamber group pulled its support.

    • Agree: Desiderius
  49. Not the first use of the phrase on Twitter, but it looks like the first widely shared one with this specific usage

  50. Jake says:

    So they were boys – ooops, I must work on avoiding racism in speech – So they were pre-21 year old MEN during the Presidency of the 1st Black President Bill Clinton and his co-Presidentress Hillary, the 1st Harpy, and perhaps Lesbian, President.

  51. tyrone says:
    @Jack D

    What video?? certainly not the one where the great lump of negro swats aside the east indian shop keeper like a noisome house fly.

  52. SFG says:
    @Anthony Wayne

    Amadou Diallo was a Guinean immigrant who got shot by the NYPD after he pulled out his wallet and it was mistaken for a gun back in 1999. It was all over the local news. The family sued the NYPD and got $3 million.

    McWhorter’s at Columbia, he’d remember it.

    • Replies: @Jack D
  53. SFG says:
    @Mark Spahn (West Seneca, NY)

    Yup. ‘Whaddaya’=’What are you [going to do about it]?’ I’ve also heard it in ‘whaddaya know’.

    Nothin’, so fugeddaboudit.

  54. SFG says:
    @Dave Pinsen

    Yeah, but he was just a generic rich guy before all this, and a famous one in New York. Rappers are famously fond of bling, and, well, Trump is Bling with a capital B.

  55. @Triumph104

    Williamson is interesting. He was an internet celebrity, like Bryce Harper, as a teenager, even before Duke recruited him. Despite his otherworldly ability, none of the services or people who rank NCAA basketball recruits had him as their top player from last year’s high school class. Zion had the disadvantage of playing in a fairly affluent white suburban high school league, and didn’t play much AAU ball. Apparently, jumping 45+ inches in the air and throwing the ball straight down through the hoop is less impressive, or not impressive at all, when the defenders are white kids of middling height.

  56. SFG says:
    @Prester John

    It’s interesting to see the disjunction between Norman and John, and I bet a lot of it has to do with the son’s lack of exposure to the working class–Norm grew up in Brooklyn, John on the Upper West Side.

    I will say, 1980s-era NYC crime levels probably made me permanently unwoke. I registered to vote for the first time to reelect Rudy Giuliani, and had followed his election eagerly in middle/high school. I remember when the squeegee guys went away a few months after they had attacked my mom’s car.

    Even during my actual liberal period I was way more about a Scandinavian-style welfare state for all Americans (definitely including the white working class, and I didn’t get why they were voting to make rich people richer) than anything woke.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
  57. SFG says:
    @bored identity

    I still remember talking to a guy in a bookstore in a small-sized Southern town who complained he couldn’t get a fireman job because there were no spots for white guys.

    This was maybe seven years ago.

  58. anon[118] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anthony Wayne

    Half the people in certain West African countries are named Diallo. One Diallo was shot many times by the police in NYC some years ago when he was pulling out his wallet, allegedly for being black.

    As for Westbrook, his entire career has been about chasing triple-doubles at the expense of his teammates and winning. His teammates’ role is to box out only so he can collect rebounds, to score only so he can get assists, and to get out of the way when he needs to get points. Nipsey’s role in the 20/20/20 line was to die so Westbrook could be inspired to collect the historic triple-double-double.
    Westbrook’s streak of triple-double somehow “proves” that he is very unselfish. On the plus side, he didn’t intentionally shoot-to-miss at his own basket to get a needed rebound, like Ricky Davis did some years ago.

    OKC is 7th in the West despite having another All-Star in Paul George, a very good center in half-Maori Adams, and a strong lineup in general. They’re famous for getting rid of star players to get them out of Westbrook’s way, who then become superstars elsewhere (e.g., Durant, Harden, Oladipo).
    And yet Oklahomans are enthralled with Westbrook and the Thunder, because David Stern gave the flyover country bumpkins a team stolen from Seattle to punish Seattle for not spending public funds on a new arena for the Supersonics.

  59. anon[118] • Disclaimer says:

    Virtue signalling is one of the most powerful drugs around. The dopamine rush it gives its addicts probably rivals that of coke and heroin.

  60. anonymous[359] • Disclaimer says:

    That’s what Labour did to the UK, along with lying about it.

  61. Jack D says:

    He was Indian, not Vietnamese. The reason you remember him as Vietnamese is because the Gentle Giant towered over the average sized Indian clerk. Here the Indian clerk estimates the height of the Gentle Giant:

    • Replies: @Hypnotoad666
  62. Jack D says:

    They didn’t just shoot him, they pumped him full of lead. 4 cops shot 41 times and 19 bullets hit (cops are lousy shots). The cops were acquitted of all charges, as usual.

    I really think that they have to change the standard for cops shooting people to a “strict liability” standard. You don’t have to get the death penalty for a bad shoot but at least a couple of years in prison if the guy doesn’t really have a gun. As it stands now, the incentives are all in favor of shooting. Cops have the “I’m going home tonight” mentality. They don’t care whether YOU go home. The cop needs to think twice – do I REALLY see a gun? Is my life REALLY in danger? If I’m wrong, I’m not going home, I’m going to jail for a while. Cop, BTW, is not a particularly dangerous job compared to some others (e.g. taxi driver) that don’t pay as well.

  63. anon[866] • Disclaimer says:

    The original comment was, I’m sure, tongue-in-cheek. Regarding Zion Williamson, with his build and off-the-charts athleticism 10 hours of instruction would be enough to make him into a fearsome NFL defensive end. The instruction would consist of “go get the guy with the ball” and some explanation of penalties not to commit while doing so. Basketball requires more skill, but mostly it requires the explosive, big, long-armed body type most commonly seen in West Africans. Quite a few NBA big men went from never having played basketball to NBA stars in a few years (e.g. Olajuwon, Embiid, Mutombo, Duncan, Antetokounmpo).

    I’m so glad Duke got bounced from the tournament. The newfound adulation for the Black Devils would have been insufferable, had they made it into the Final Four, let alone won it. The most hated team in college basketball when they had white players in major roles (other than bringing up the team’s GPA), is suddenly the most admired one now that the rotation is basically all-black.
    They could’ve been bounced two rounds ago by less-talented teams, but got extremely lucky twice.

    Get ready for more sportsballmedia analingus when Zion becomes the new Chosen One this June.
    There will be 10,000 stories about his dad spending 10,000 hours polishing Zion’s talent, mostly consisting of a 6-7, 285-lb frame capable of leaping 40+ inches quicker than anyone. The game of basketball is easy when you are bigger, stronger, and faster than almost anyone you’re up against.

  64. peterike says:
    @Jack D

    The cop needs to think twice – do I REALLY see a gun? Is my life REALLY in danger?

    And meanwhile, the cop just got shot dead, while he was concerning himself with your delicate sensibilities.

    • Replies: @Jack D
  65. Marty T says:

    If the Democratic nominee supports both late term abortion and reparations, my money is on Trump.

  66. Marty T says:

    Wisconsin is looking like the most important state of 2020.

    • Replies: @Ed
  67. peterike says:

    I think the move Left by whites is largely a function of social media and its amplification effect for virtue signalling, so beloved of white women and soy-boys.

    After all, there are zero repercussions for even the most fervent Progressive nonsense on your social media. You can shout all day about “white privilege” and “white racism” and all is well. Mumble a few truths about race, gender, power, etc. and you’ll find yourself out of a job.

    The dopamine effect of social media virtue signalling is very real, and we’ve had many years of it now on full throttle. People who may have started out sorta-kinda believing all this white privilege stuff are now completely committed to it. It’s a curious new form of self-brainwashing that I don’t think ever really existed before, at least not at such scale.

  68. Corvinus says:

    “In Vox, Matthew Yglesias comes around to largely agreeing with my interpretation of politics since c. 2012-2014: it’s driven by Democrats becoming more extremist on race.”

    Actually, the narrative crafted by the Coalition on the Fringes Left and Right has injected into the mainstream the APPEARANCE that the mainstream has turned in this direction. Thus, based on a false premise, each side continues with the charade that the shift has indeed occurred. The fact of the matter is that the far left AND the far right have taken extremist positions far from the perspective of liberal and conservative normies.

  69. @Anthony Wayne

    Malcolm Gladwell spent a whole chapter on this guy in his book Blink or Outliers or some such. The conclusion was that cops shouldn’t travel in groups like this, because it reinforces mistaken impressions.

  70. Spangel says:
    @Anthony Wayne

    Amadou Diallo was an immigrant who was shot over 40 times after undercover cops accosted him. He lived in a bad neighborhood and he thought he was being mugged, having no way to identify his confronters as cops. He moved to pull out his wallet to hand to who he thought were muggers and nycs finest shot him more than 40 times. All those cops should have done a significant amount of time for that kind of incompetence.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
  71. MarcB. says:

    “It began roughly with the 2014 protests in Ferguson, Missouri”

    The watershed was Memorial weekend 2011:

    Remember days of the flash mobs and polar bear hunting? It became so prevalent that Matt Drudge agreed to comply with critics by reducing coverage of black mayhem and violence.

    BLM and the riots were the cherries on top. But it was already too late, and the narrative collapse has been going strong, onwards to the Smollett Hate Hoax.

  72. keypusher says:
    @Jack D

    They don’t care whether YOU go home. The cop needs to think twice – do I REALLY see a gun? Is my life REALLY in danger? If I’m wrong, I’m not going home, I’m going to jail for a while.

    Darrell Wilson got it right and had his life ruined anyway. I don’t think you need to worry about cops being over-incentivized to shoot at present. There’s lots of cops, they all have guns, and they panic or do wrong like everyone else, so police shootings will always be with us, though.

    All: What Yglesias (and Steve) are talking about is a massive change in white Democrat thinking (if that’s the word) since 2012. It has nothing to do with the 1980s or 1990s.

    • Replies: @Jack D
  73. Art Deco says:
    @Jack D

    (cops are lousy shots).

    As opposed to what other occupational segment?

    • Replies: @Jack D
  74. Art Deco says:
    @Jack D

    Some of the officers were put on trial in Albany. They were acquitted by a racially-mixed jury.

    • Replies: @Jack D
  75. Art Deco says:

    IIRC, they were uniformed officers, not plainclothes or undercover.

  76. Art Deco says:

    It’s interesting to see the disjunction between Norman and John, and I bet a lot of it has to do with the son’s lack of exposure to the working class–Norm grew up in Brooklyn, John on the Upper West Side.

    On what do they explicitly disagree?

  77. Art Deco says:

    I’ll suggest that social conservatives are partial to Trump because he fights. The GOP regulars cave. They issue craven apologies. They promise more but deliver less. See McConnell’s reaction to Obergefell.

    • Agree: Desiderius
    • Replies: @Desiderius
  78. @Jack D

    That was an informative clip. I hadn’t realized that GG (“Gentle Giant”) had been been killed a mere 10 minutes after strong-arming the store owner.

    Also, I loved how the Indian storeowner’s son talks in Black vernacular (“It was only then that be we be callin’ the po-lice.”)

    Maybe Apu should start using that accent to get everyone off the Simpson’s back.

  79. Since white racism is the cause of blacks’ dysfunction–lower incomes, lower wealth, lower test scores, higher unemployement and much higher violent crime–relative to whites …

    then white philo-Semitism presumably is the cause of Jews’ super-function–higher incomes, higher wealth, higher test scores, lower unemployment and lower violent crime–relative to whites.

    I eagerly await the media\Democrat prounouncements of how incredibly philo-Semitic American gentiles are white gentile responsibility of Jewish success in America.

  80. Forbes says:

    I think iSteve coined it, but Yglesias, between the lines, suggests it:

    As racism fades into the past (as a reality, as an excuse, as a crutch), more and more it has to be invented, re-asserted, talked about, imported, used as a rallying cry. I can’t recall “structural racism” ever mentioned until nearly none existed. Racism is never incidental, unintended, or inadvertent, it’s always structural–and my favorite–implicit, and unconscious, bias.

    You’re a bigot, you just don’t know it.

  81. TWS says:

    The fringe party needs to keep getting fringier. Function of their place. Good thing we keep importing more

  82. @Spangel

    “Amadou Diallo was an immigrant who was shot over 40 times after undercover cops accosted him. He lived in a bad neighborhood…”


    bored identity’s Five For Real Heavy Facts on Diallo ;

    1. Lived in some septic-tanking country….in not so bad neighborhood.
    2. Moved to New York to inspire The a bad neighborhood.
    3. Was a street peddler and felonious liar *…in a bad neighborhood.
    3. Got shot 19 times ( in the same day ) by triggery NYPD finest…in a bad neighborhood.
    4. Parents went for the settlement…. in a neighborhood of $3,000,000.
    5.If La Migra did their job, Amadou would be alive and back…in not so bad neighborhood.

    Diallo’s mom through her black rose-tinted glasses:

    “In September 1996, Amadou departed for America seeking the opportunity to attend college. He left behind a handwritten note for his mother that had only two lines, “The solution is U.S.A. Don’t leave my brothers and sister here.”

    He believed in the opportunity America promised. Amadou loved the singer Bruce Springsteen, saying he represented the dreams of ordinary people.

    Amadou would play “Born in the USA” over and over.

    In a sad twist of fate, it would later be Bruce Springsteen who would write a song about Amadou’s death, “American Skin (41 shots).”

    Once in New York, Amadou’s uncle told him to be careful because he had heard of many families in Guinea who had lost their sons to shootings on the streets.”

    Amadou was just about to build a Big Beautiful Buttress:

    Amadou Diallo, the Guinean immigrant who was killed in a fusillade of police bullets last month, had applied for and received political asylum under false pretenses, one of his family’s lawyers said last night.

    The lawyer, Kyle B. Watters, said Mr. Diallo had claimed to be from Mauritania on his application for asylum, and had said his parents were killed in fighting there.

    The application had been approved last year by an immigration judge, Mr. Watters said, but the Immigration and Naturalization Service was appealing the decision.

    Family members, friends and lawyers have said previously that Mr. Diallo had a three-year work or study visa that was to expire next month.

    Apparently, Mr. Diallo applied for asylum because he ”was seeking to stay here on a long-term basis,” Mr. Watters said.

    ”He said he was from Mauritania and his parents had been killed in fighting to buttress his claim that he had credible fear of going back to his country,” Mr. Watters said.


  83. Jack D says:
    @Art Deco

    Under current law and jury instructions, that was the correct verdict. We need to change the law so that the cops are held to a higher standard.

  84. Jack D says:
    @Art Deco

    People whose job it is to shoot guns professionally.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    , @Harry Balz
  85. J.Ross says: • Website
    @Jack D

    This is an oversimplification of that particular incident that borders on dishonesty; I don’t have Heather MacDonald’s Are Cops Racist handy but she adds a great deal of context.

  86. Jack D says:

    I don’t think you need to worry about cops being over-incentivized to shoot at present.

    I do worry about it – it is very rare for a cop to be convicted for a bad shoot and they know it. Meanwhile in their training, they emphasize how little time you have to react if someone pulls a gun and how you can’t hesitate and have to shoot them right away as soon as you see the gun or else you’re dead. (It’s not even clear that this is true, certainly not in all cases). So a false negative (failing to shoot) may get you killed (they keep telling you) but in a case of a false positive nothing much happens to you. So naturally you err in favor of the false positive. The combination is exactly that – they are over-incentivized to shoot.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    , @Johann Ricke
  87. J.Ross says: • Website
    @Jack D

    The full chestnut is that cops are bad shots because they don’t practice. When that’s true it’s usually because they have a million other things to do.

  88. J.Ross says: • Website
    @Jack D

    What you are complaining about is the Israeli offensive-defense doctrine; it is the thing every Israel critic complains about, and it came to American cops from Israeli instructors. Israelis do it ten times more than American cops.

    • Replies: @Jack D
  89. Yglesias points to Obama’s election in 2008 as a turning point for the liberal stance on race, but this shift in my opinion seems to predate the Obama election. I think Obama’s nomination and election to the presidency was a result of the shift, rather than the main cause of the Democrat’s move to the left on race.

    Two examples of this that I can remember are series of educational documentaries from the early 2000s broaching the subject of race from the uber left position –
    The first was Race, Power of an Illusion in 2003 –
    The second was What’s Race got to do with it from 2006 –

    These were both produced by/in association with U.C. Berkeley, so that might explain why they take a far left view on race, but these are emblematic of the shift in the discourse on race to make left wing positions mainstream

  90. Jack D says:

    It’s not delicate sensibility to want the cops to be reasonably sure that they have ACTUALLY seen a gun and not a wallet or cell phone, etc. Civilians don’t get to go around shooting everyone who pulls out their cell phone just because it MIGHT be a gun. Maybe even the cop has to accept that he needs to expose himself to a little danger as the price of not shooting innocent people – that this is an occupational hazard that comes with the job. Better for a cop to die once in a while than for 10 innocent civilians to be killed by cops every week (BTW the cops kill a lot more people than the # of cops who get killed – it’s something like 8 to 1). It can’t be zero danger for him and a lot of danger to innocent civilians from trigger happy cops -there needs to be a balance.

    BTW, how do you feel about Somali cop Mohammed Noor killing innocent white girl Justine Diamond? Maybe when it’s black cops shooting white people you feel a little less sympathetic to the cops?

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  91. @Art Deco

    The animus reasoning (sic) of Obergefell was the ultimate hate hoax. It’s the Dred Scott of the 21st Century in that it was produced by the worst prejudices of a corrupt regional ruling class that had attained illegitimate power over the nation as a whole and served to further affirm them in their corruption and illegitimacy.

    Want to know why rich white coastal snobs went radical on race? Same reason they went radical on everything else – Anthony Kennedy’s imprimatur on their fever dreams.

  92. Forbes says:

    And to think these same folks want to legalize pot…logic and reasoning sure to be a trip…

  93. Anon7 says:

    If you want to see a good illustration of the place of white guys in the Democratic Party, look no further than these NCAA / Credit card commercials:

    Message: if you play a lame idiot you can hang out with the cool in-crowd black people. Maybe.

  94. @Jack D

    I do worry about it – it is very rare for a cop to be convicted for a bad shoot and they know it. Meanwhile in their training, they emphasize how little time you have to react if someone pulls a gun and how you can’t hesitate and have to shoot them right away as soon as you see the gun or else you’re dead. (It’s not even clear that this is true, certainly not in all cases). So a false negative (failing to shoot) may get you killed (they keep telling you) but in a case of a false positive nothing much happens to you. So naturally you err in favor of the false positive. The combination is exactly that – they are over-incentivized to shoot.

    I like to look at statistics to see what the odds are of officers getting killed here vs the UK. The US has roughly 5x the UK’s population. The number of American police officers murdered in 2017? 46. The UK? 1, in the course of a terror attack. That’s a ratio of 46 to 1. Now, if the US and UK overall murder rates were equivalent, we’d expect a roughly 5 to 1 ratio of US to UK cops killed. But the fact is that the US murder rate is 5x the UK murder rate. So we’d expect the US to UK ratio of officers killed to be 5 x 5 = 25 : 1 (the first 5 to account for the US having 5x the population and the second 5 to account for the US having 5x the homicide rate). But the actual number is 46 to 1, almost twice what we would expect it to be. It’s quite possible that American police officers are less inclined to use force than they ought to be.

  95. Ben Dover says:

    Social upheavals simply do not abide by the dictates of partisan politics. The increased moral fervor unleashed by the Great Awakening of the 1840s and 1850s broke the Whig Party and temporarily entrenched the South’s hold on political power. But abolitionist sentiment carried the day in the end.

    Trying to think if anything significant happened around that time?

    And by the same token, while the Great Awokening might drive some Democrats into Trump’s arms now, the sustained phenomenon is forcing the Democratic Party to confront the legacy of America’s racial caste system squarely. The next Democratic president will have to do the same.

    Is that a threat?

  96. gregor says:

    It’s runaway virtue signalling. If racism is the greatest evil, then not being racist is the greatest good, and signalling of anti-racism is escalating to ever more absurd and embarrassing levels. In most other domains, there are usually other competing values that prevent people from getting carried away like this (weighting so heavily on just the one thing), but in this case the competing concerns are things like maintaining basic order and not letting everything go to shit, and voicing those kinds of concerns isn’t seen as “moral,” it’s just seen as white people being selfish and not wanting to redistribute well being from themselves to people of color.

    I do like the term “racial liberalism” that Yglesias uses here. There is racial liberalism (or utopianism) on the one hand and racial conservatism (or pragmatism or realism) on the other. I personally think of myself as a “racial conservative.”

  97. @Jack D

    What’s the difference between Amadou Diallo and an Irishman?

    The Irishman is still standing after 41 shots.

  98. @Anthony Wayne

    Thank you to everyone who informed me who Amadou Diallo was. I hope to forget this faster than I have learned it.

  99. Anonymous[322] • Disclaimer says:
    @Jack D

    The only difference between cops and Hell’s Angels is one has better costumes and the other better taste in music. If you proceed on that basis it is much safer for all concerned.

  100. @Ed

    Madison, WI – I picked up a neighbor’s get-out-the-vote flyer that was dropped on the floor. It’s from the ACLU. It says, “The ACLU does not endorse or oppose candidates for office.” The description of Brian Hagedorn states that “in his private capacity, co-founded a school that prohibits the hiring of LGBT people, and that can expel students who are LGBT.” His opponent is described as fair and impartial. I didn’t get one of those in the mail, although I got a bunch of city council, school board & mayor stuff. Notwithstanding their denial, the ACLU seems to have aimed at getting out the vote on behalf of Neubauer.

    • Replies: @Ed
  101. Ed says:
    @Marty T

    Without a doubt especially if Trump struggles in MI/PA. Personally I think he’ll do fine but Michigan was very close last time around. A small uptick in Detroit voters or cheating could flip it back to the Dems.

  102. Ed says:
    @Grace Jones

    The ACLU is part of the Dem party now. It’s explicit now I don’t get why they’re trying to be coy about it.

  103. @Jack D

    The problem with NYPD cops accuracy-wise is that management makes the cops carry modified pistols; their Glock pistols have a special NYC trigger that increases the trigger pull.

    The GLOCK “New York” trigger has its name from the New York Police Department.

    It facilitates officers changing from revolvers to pistols. This part increases trigger pull weight from factory standard 5.5 lb. to 8 lb.

    Chris Bartoli from Small Arms Solutions talks about having a Glock that did not shoot well until he replaced the NYC trigger.

    • Replies: @Jack D
  104. Jack D says:

    As usual, it’s the Joos fault. What CAN’T Joos do? I didn’t know that Israelis were big in the American police weapons training business.

    Israeli soldiers (soldiers, not police) understand that they are an occupation army amid a hostile population who wishes they were dead (or at least gone) and are (rightly or wrongly) not inclined to give Arab youths who approach them the benefit of the doubt. Maybe American police (and BTW police shooters are often black as well as white) consider themselves the same way but if they do, that’s the wrong way to think about police work – from their very beginning, modern police were supposed to be part of the community that they served and not an occupation army. This is why “Bobbies” didn’t even carry guns.

  105. Jack D says:
    @Joe Stalin

    With proper training, it’s possible to shoot well with a heavy trigger and it does help to avoid accidental discharges. As you point out, the NY trigger mimics the heavy trigger found on revolvers and it is certainly possible to shoot a revolver accurately (as pistols go). A pistol is a close range weapon, not a sniper rifle and does not require a hair trigger for accuracy. Massad Ayoob has won championships shooting a Glock w/ a NY trigger.

    • Replies: @Joe Stalin
  106. @Anonymous

    Reconstruction re-enactors.

  107. @Jack D

    The wife of a relative can’t hit anything with revolver. He finally purchased a .380ACP pistol designed for women for her. Most cops aren’t gun people. NYC is so paranoid of “accidental discharges” that I believe even their revolvers were required to be Double Action only. We are talking here of the average street cop.

    So, high trigger pull, less ADs, less accuracy in the field for the average cop.

    Normal trigger pull, possibly lower ADs, more accuracy in street battle.

    So, would cop management choose the same as a street cop?

    • Replies: @Joe Stalin
  108. @Joe Stalin

    That should say: “Normal trigger pull, possibly higher ADs, more accuracy in street battle.”

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