The Unz Review - Mobile
A Collection of Interesting, Important, and Controversial Perspectives Largely Excluded from the American Mainstream Media
 iSteve BlogTeasers
WSJ on Arizona and Immigration

Here’s a reasonably even-handed news article from the Wall Street Journal by Bob Davis with some interesting if not wholly reliable statistics:

The Thorny Economics of Illegal Immigration
Arizona’s economy took a hit when many illegal immigrants left, but benefits also materialized

By BOB DAVIS
Updated Feb. 9, 2016 10:49 a.m. ET
558 COMMENTS

MARICOPA, Ariz.—After Arizona passed a series of tough anti-immigration laws, Rob Knorr couldn’t find enough Mexican field hands to pick his jalapeño peppers. He sharply reduced his acreage and invested $2 million developing a machine to remove pepper stems. His goal was to cut the number of laborers he needed by 90% and to hire higher-paid U.S. machinists instead.

“We used to have many migrant families. They aren’t coming back,” says Mr. Knorr, who owns RK Farms LLC, an hour’s drive from Phoenix.

Few issues in the presidential campaign are more explosive than whether and how much to crack down on illegal immigration, which some Republican candidates in particular blame for America’s economic woes. Arizona is a test case of what happens to an economy when such migrants leave, and it illustrates the economic tensions fueling the immigration debate.

Economists of opposing political views agree the state’s economy took a hit when large numbers of illegal immigrants left for Mexico and other border states, following a broad crackdown. But they also say the reduced competition for low-skilled jobs was a boon for some native-born construction and agricultural workers who got jobs or raises, and that the departures also saved the state money on education and health care. Whether those gains are worth the economic pain is the crux of the debate. …

Between 2007 and 2012, Arizona’s population of undocumented workers dropped by 40%—by far the biggest percentage decline of any state—according to the Pew Research Center, a nonpartisan think tank whose numbers are cited by pro and anti-immigration groups.

I am agnostic about all estimates of the size of the illegal alien population. I simply don’t know how to estimate these numbers reliably, and I’m not persuaded Pew does either.

Moreover, the size of the anchor baby population is the real concern, but that seldom gets counted when the number of “undocumented workers” (many of whom don’t work) is guesstimated.

California, the biggest border state, lost just 12.5% of its illegal immigrants during that time period. Since 2012, Arizona’s illegal-immigrant population hasn’t grown much, if at all, according to state economists and employers and preliminary data from Pew. Since 2007, about 200,000 undocumented immigrants have left the state, which has a population of 6.7 million.

The cost of illegal immigration has been a big political issue in Arizona for years. But pinning down exactly how much it costs the state, and how much is collected from illegal immigrants through taxation, is surprisingly hard to do. The state doesn’t count it. Estimates vary widely, depending in part on debatable issues such as whether to include the cost of educating U.S.-born children of illegal immigrants.

Why not?

Moody’s Analytics looked at Arizona’s economic output for The Wall Street Journal, with an eye toward distinguishing between the effects of the mass departures of illegal immigrants and the recession that hit the state hard beginning in 2008. It concluded that the departures alone had reduced Arizona’s gross domestic product by an average of 2% a year between 2008 and 2015. Because of the departures, total employment in the state was 2.5% lower, on average, than it otherwise would have been between 2008 and 2015, according to Moody’s.

According to Michael Lewis’s The Big Short, Arizona was one of the four “Sand States” (along with Nevada, California, and Florida, to use the collective noun devised by Wall Street wits), where the Housing Bubble of 2003-2006 was centered. Is it just a coincidence that the vast majority of price declines in the value of housing before unemployment rose nationally in response to the popping of the bubble were in the four Sand States?

A huge question is: how much did immigration, current or recent, contribute to the Housing Bubble, which happened to be centered in four states with huge Hispanic immigration numbers and limited land for development? My impression from a wide variety of data sources, such as federal Home Mortgage Disclosure Act data and about a dozen studies of default rates by ethnicity, was that the Sand State Housing Bubble was based in significant measure on the circular reasoning that importing lots of cheap illegal aliens to build houses for people trying to get their kids away from having to go to school with the children of illegal aliens was a sustainable economic proposition.

But that’s not a popular opinion.

The recession, of course, also hurt the state’s economy. Mr. Hanson, the immigration economist, said the economic downturn led many migrants to leave.

Sure, but if the Sand State Housing Bubble of 2003-2006 was in sizable measure also an Immigration Bubble, then the Housing Bubble is what had previously caused many migrants to come. Yes, this is circular reasoning, but circular reason is one big way you get bubbles.

Economic activity produced by immigrants—what economists call the “immigration surplus”—shrank because there were fewer immigrants around to buy clothing and groceries, to work and to start businesses.

These days, construction, landscaping and agriculture industries, long dependent on migrants, complain of worker shortages. While competition for some jobs eased, there were fewer job openings overall for U.S.-born workers or legal immigrants.

According to the Moody’s analysis, low-skilled U.S. natives and legal Hispanic immigrants since 2008 picked up less than 10% of the jobs once held by undocumented immigrants. In a separate analysis, economists Sarah Bohn and Magnus Lofstrom of the Public Policy Institute of California and Steven Raphael of the University of California at Berkeley conclude that employment declined for low-skilled white native workers in Arizona during 2008 and 2009, the height of the out-migration. One bright spot: the median income of low-skilled whites who did manage to get jobs rose about 6% during that period, the economists estimate.

Arizona’s population of illegal immigrants grew nearly fivefold between 1990 and 2005, to about 450,000, according to Pew Research. Starting around 2004, the state approved a series of measures, either by ballot initiatives or legislation, aimed at discouraging illegal immigration. Undocumented immigrants in Arizona, about 85% of whom came from Mexico, are barred from receiving government benefits, including nonemergency hospital care. They can’t receive punitive damages in civil lawsuits. Many can’t get drivers’ licenses and aren’t eligible for in-state tuition rates. Arizona developed a national reputation for tough enforcement of the rules.

Some current Republican presidential contenders also take a tough line on immigration. GOP front-runner Donald Trump backs a “deportation force” to send home those here illegally, and he wants to build a wall on the Mexican border to keep out others. Texas Sen. Ted Cruz also wants a wall and would end Obama administration measures that have halted deportations of many undocumented workers.

On the Democratic side, former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton and Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders would allow illegal immigrants already here to become citizens, and would continue the Obama administration policies.

Arizona’s immigration flow started to reverse in 2008 after the state became the first to require all employers to use the federal government’s E-Verify system, which searches Social Security records to check whether hires are authorized to work in the U.S. That law coincided with the collapse of the construction industry and the recession.

The first subprime lender failures (e.g., New Century Financial in Orange County, CA) were in the late winter of 2007. It would be interesting to determine if democratic action in Arizona had any effect on the financial markets opinion of the viability of subprime lenders like New Century.

In summary, if you are measuring Arizona’s economic performance, if you use 2007 as your baseline, you start with numbers inflated by the Great Housing/Immigration Bubble.

The combination persuaded many illegal immigrants to leave for neighboring states or Mexico.

In 2010, as the state economy began to recover, the Legislature stepped up pressure. Under a new law, SB 1070, police could use traffic stops to check immigration status. Another section of the law, later struck down by the Supreme Court, made it illegal for day laborers to stand on city streets and sign up for work on construction crews.

“It was like, ‘Where did everybody go?’ ” says Teresa Acuna, a Phoenix real-estate agent who works in Latino neighborhoods. Real-estate agent Patti Gorski says her sales records show that prices of homes owned by Spanish-speaking customers fell by 63% between 2007 and 2010, compared with a 44% drop for English-speaking customers, a difference she attributes partly to financial pressure on owners who had been renting homes to immigrants who departed.

Over the years, I’ve posted quite a few academic studies of default rates by ethnicity, all showing that Hispanics had much higher foreclosure rates.

… On the other side of the economic ledger, government spending on immigrants fell. State and local officials don’t track total spending on undocumented migrants or how many of their children attend public schools. But the number of students enrolled in intensive English courses in Arizona public schools fell from 150,000 in 2008 to 70,000 in 2012 and has remained constant since. Schooling 80,000 fewer students would save the state roughly $350 million a year, by one measure.

During that same period, annual emergency-room spending on noncitizens fell 37% to $106 million, from $167 million. And between 2010 and 2014, the annual cost to state prisons of incarcerating noncitizens convicted of felonies fell 11% to $180 million, from $202 million.

“The economic factor is huge in terms of what it saves Arizona taxpayers,” primarily on reduced education costs, says Russell Pearce, who as a state senator sponsored SB 1070.

Worker shortage

As the Arizona economy recovered, a worker shortage began surfacing in industries relying on immigrants, documented or not. Wages rose about 15% for Arizona farmworkers and about 10% for construction between 2010 and 2014, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics. Some employers say their need for workers has increased since then, leading them to boost wages more rapidly and crimping their ability to expand.

Before the immigration crackdown, Precise Drywall Inc., of Phoenix, would deploy 50 people for jobs building luxury homes.

What percentage of these “luxury homes” buyers defaulted on their mortgages?

“I could pull out phone books where I had 300 or 400 guys’ numbers” to fill out crews, recalls company President Jeremy Barbosa. No longer. Many immigrants left and haven’t returned, while other workers moved on to other industries. …

The labor shortage has caused some wages to rise. Carlos Avelar, a placement officer at Phoenix Job Corps, a federal job-training center, says graduates now often mull two or three jobs offers from construction firms and occasionally start at $14.65 an hour instead of $10.

At DTR Landscape Development LLC, the firm’s president, Dick Roberts, says he has increased his starting wage by 60% to $14.50 an hour because he is having trouble finding reliable workers.

Is it really all that terrible that Americans with no academic skills can now scrape out a living by the sweat of their brows?

 
• Tags: Mortgage 
Email This Page to Someone

 Remember My Information



=>
Commenters to Ignore...to FollowEndorsed Only
[Filtered by Reply Thread]
  1. There are quite a few typos in here, Steve. I can’t list them all.

    My other question is: Should we patriotic immigration restrictionists worry about what appears to have been a fall in native employment?

    • Replies: @Benjamin I. Espen

    In a separate analysis, economists Sarah Bohn and Magnus Lofstrom of the Public Policy Institute of California and Steven Raphael of the University of California at Berkeley conclude that employment declined for low-skilled white native workers in Arizona during 2008 and 2009, the height of the out-migration.
     
    Well, there was a drop in employment here in Arizona during 2008-9, but my guess, if all the ceteris is paribus, is that most of it was due to the bubble popping. Figuring out what caused what is always hard, but I read this and wasn't surprised at all. Living in Arizona, the way the bubble popped was really brutal. People did lose jobs. Naturally, the effect was concentrated in low-skill jobs, but you could feel it everywhere.
    , @Esso
    "In a separate analysis, economists Sarah Bohn and Magnus Lofstrom of the Public Policy Institute of California and Steven Raphael of the University of California at Berkeley conclude that employment declined for low-skilled white native workers in Arizona during 2008 and 2009, the height of the out-migration."

    Economists have a habit of attributing all kinds of variation to migration effects. Remember anything happening to the economy in 2009?

    Another case in point (at least here in Europe) is analysis over area. Cities have developed much better economically than rural areas and industrial towns in the past 25 years. Cities also have more immigrants, which opens a lot of ways for statistical sleight-of-hand.
    , @Buffalo Joe
    Secular Trad, Steve used to employ migrant workers to proof read and edit, now he uses Spell Check so all those migrant editors have returned to Mexico or where ever. It's like using a Mechanical Pepper Picker, you get an occasional stem or bug, but the over all benefits are worth it. If you find a typo, spit it out.
    , @jtgw
    You probably should. This is the problem with protectionism: you focus on one particular group, say native-born construction workers, and then try to legislate to protect their jobs, but you end up costing everybody else, creating a net loss in prosperity.

    The point about saving costs to the public purse, however, is spot on. "Free" benefits, whether direct handouts or indirect benefits like public schooling, are obviously going to attract those more likely to take advantage of them, such as unskilled Mexicans.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
    AgreeDisagreeLOLTroll
    These buttons register your public Agreement, Disagreement, Troll, or LOL with the selected comment. They are only available to recent, frequent commenters who have saved their Name+Email using the 'Remember My Information' checkbox, and may also only be used once per hour.
    Sharing Comment via Twitter
    http://www.unz.com/isteve/wsj-on-arizona-and-immigration/#comment-1322255
    More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  2. Let’s be honest, can anyone trust the results of any so-called “study” on the economic impact of immigration? There just are no unbiased observers, especially ones from academia or wall street. There are trillions of dollars at stake in keeping the idea of “immigration equals prosperity” afloat.

    • Replies: @Leftist conservative

    Let’s be honest, can anyone trust the results of any so-called “study” on the economic impact of immigration? There just are no unbiased observers, especially ones from academia or wall street. There are trillions of dollars at stake in keeping the idea of “immigration equals prosperity” afloat.
     
    Exactly. It all comes down to money. Whose money? Your money and my money? No. The money that is the profits of the big corporations that fund the media. These corporations want to keep the Economy of Capital afloat. Immigration does that. They are concerned with the economy of sales and profits. Immigration helps that economy. And the Establishment creates endless bogus academic studies to manufacture consent for policies that help the economy of Capital.

    The Economy of Labor? Well, that economy is adversarial to the Economy of Capital. And there is no propaganda being created to spread the perspective of the Economy of Labor.
  3. Leftist conservative [AKA "GOD ✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ"] says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    we can move forward on this immigration debate, reach the next level, only when the american working class understands that the media and the government views the “economy” from the perspective of Capital. And the american working class needs to understand that there is another “economy”–the economy of the working class.

    There are two separate economies:

    1) the economy of the corporations,of Capital. This is the one discussed endlessly by media and government. This is the economy that is benefited by mass immigration. The Establishment seeks to grow this economy via immigration.

    2) the economy of most american working class citizens. This is the economy of Labor. Citizen Labor. This economy is damaged by mass immigration.

    Capital Economy vs Labor Economy. These two economies need to be discussed separately.
    Until the american working class makes this realization and forces the media to see things from this perspective, we will not be able to move to the next level.

    • Agree: slumber_j, E. Rekshun
    • Replies: @Anonym
    A good point. What you are after is this I think. Top 10 all Eurosphere.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_average_wage

    Better would be less cost of living. Not sure if this is it but all I could find. Top 14 all Eurosphere.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income

    I looked some more. This is better. Top 16 all Eurosphere.

    http://skift.com/2013/05/15/u-s-has-the-highest-disposable-income-as-uk-slips-down-the-list/

    A great map:

    http://www.movehub.com/blog/disposable-income-world-map

    USA still number 1 but not by much.

    , @Yngvar
    With all due respect G-d, but You are wrong.
    Capital and Labor are different sides of the same coin. The one can't exist without the other.

    Without Labor no (accumulated) Capital, without Capital (employed for profit) no Labor.
  4. how much is collected from illegal immigrants through taxation…

    I’m sure the IRS is getting a whole lot from minimum-wage workers with several kids.

    • Replies: @Benjamin I. Espen
    At least in Arizona, most of our state tax revenue comes from sales tax, which is often noted as a more regressive form of taxation. Property tax, for example, is way less important here than in other states, so state tax revenues were hit less hard by the bubble popping than in other places.
    , @Jus' Sayin'...
    In fact, a more interesting question might be, "How much native-born tax receipts are being redistributed to illegal aliens in the form of "negative income tax" payments like the earned income credit?"
    , @CAL
    My sister used to work for one of the big tax preparation companies. She said it is unbelievable what they would claim. Anyone who thinks more than a tiny minority are paying taxes is nuts.
  5. Leftist conservative [AKA "GOD ✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ"] says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @maj
    Let's be honest, can anyone trust the results of any so-called "study" on the economic impact of immigration? There just are no unbiased observers, especially ones from academia or wall street. There are trillions of dollars at stake in keeping the idea of "immigration equals prosperity" afloat.

    Let’s be honest, can anyone trust the results of any so-called “study” on the economic impact of immigration? There just are no unbiased observers, especially ones from academia or wall street. There are trillions of dollars at stake in keeping the idea of “immigration equals prosperity” afloat.

    Exactly. It all comes down to money. Whose money? Your money and my money? No. The money that is the profits of the big corporations that fund the media. These corporations want to keep the Economy of Capital afloat. Immigration does that. They are concerned with the economy of sales and profits. Immigration helps that economy. And the Establishment creates endless bogus academic studies to manufacture consent for policies that help the economy of Capital.

    The Economy of Labor? Well, that economy is adversarial to the Economy of Capital. And there is no propaganda being created to spread the perspective of the Economy of Labor.

  6. “The labor shortage has caused some wages to rise. Carlos Avelar, a placement officer at Phoenix Job Corps, a federal job-training center, says graduates now often mull two or three jobs offers from construction firms and occasionally start at $14.65 an hour instead of $10.

    “At DTR Landscape Development LLC, the firm’s president, Dick Roberts, says he has increased his starting wage by 60% to $14.50 an hour because he is having trouble finding reliable workers.”

    A point of reference for me is Danny Tyra, a kid I met in high school metal shop in 1984, when I was a senior and he was a sophomore. Three years after high school for me, one year for him, we met one night in a convenience store and spent a few happy minutes catching up. He bragged, in an appropriate way, that he was making $500 a week with his landscaping job. Before I was done with my BS in engineering I also made that much in a summer intern position; the summer before that I was making $6.50 an hour simply cleaning up construction debris at tract home developments and hauling it to the dump; the summer straight out of high school I made $5 an hour at as a helper with a roofing company, mostly carrying tile, shingles, and rolls around rooftops and taking part in reroofing tear-offs.

    That was 30 years of inflation ago. Now the idea seems to be that labor should be done by Mexicans for $10 an hour, and college students should start their lives of genteel debt.

    • Replies: @John Mansfield
    Correction: My memory mixed up Danny a bit with his younger brother. Danny was my age, so at the time he was happily pulling in $500 a week doing landscaping he was 21 years old in 1987, 3 years out of high school.
  7. Going for making under $20k a year to little over $30k a year, seems like a win to me for American workers. Less spending on immigrant services is just gravy.

    I guy that didn’t finish HS can at least strung together a respectable living maybe even find a gal to marry. This a perfect article for Trump or any other sensible candidate to use to transition into more specifics about benefits of restricting immigration.

    • Replies: @Bill Jones
    And that pay increase translates into about $1,500 or so more in social security taxes.
  8. These types of stories need to be highlighted far more often – the left always frames immigration as an issue of compassion and overlooks what that costs low-educator/low-skill American workers who are struggling for self-sufficiency.

    The anchor baby/unaccompanied minor issue is also an important one as well. Arizona has so many immigrant children with no parents that it has set up a number of youth shelters to house them until they can figure out what to do with them – a sad state of affairs that exists thanks to our lax approach to immigration.

    • Replies: @Bob who can solve the anchor baby problem
    There is no need to try to change birthright citizenship. Ignore the child and focus on the parents. Exclude the parents and any direct family member of the parents of any child born in america to non-citizen parents from any US Immigration or visa programs other than a tourist visa. For any child where the mother is a non-citizen and will not identify the father presume the father is a US citizen and turn the child over to child welfare for adoption.

    If the parents can provide care for the child in the US then great they are welcome to do so. Their presence here is limited to the terms of a tourist visa. If they can show dual citizenship for the child they are welcome to take the child home with them to their nation of origin. The child will remain welcome to come and go the same as any citizen. If they take the child out of the US they are barred for a period of 18 years or until the child reaches 18 from even a tourist visa.
  9. @Secular Trad
    There are quite a few typos in here, Steve. I can't list them all.

    My other question is: Should we patriotic immigration restrictionists worry about what appears to have been a fall in native employment?

    In a separate analysis, economists Sarah Bohn and Magnus Lofstrom of the Public Policy Institute of California and Steven Raphael of the University of California at Berkeley conclude that employment declined for low-skilled white native workers in Arizona during 2008 and 2009, the height of the out-migration.

    Well, there was a drop in employment here in Arizona during 2008-9, but my guess, if all the ceteris is paribus, is that most of it was due to the bubble popping. Figuring out what caused what is always hard, but I read this and wasn’t surprised at all. Living in Arizona, the way the bubble popped was really brutal. People did lose jobs. Naturally, the effect was concentrated in low-skill jobs, but you could feel it everywhere.

  10. @Reg Cæsar

    how much is collected from illegal immigrants through taxation...
     
    I'm sure the IRS is getting a whole lot from minimum-wage workers with several kids.

    At least in Arizona, most of our state tax revenue comes from sales tax, which is often noted as a more regressive form of taxation. Property tax, for example, is way less important here than in other states, so state tax revenues were hit less hard by the bubble popping than in other places.

  11. “Should we patriotic immigration restrictionists worry about what appears to have been a fall in native employment?”

    I find it incredibly difficult to believe that any natives worried about jobs would be calling for increased immigration.

    Business owners, sure. Workers? Not so much.

    Besides, you’ll have more money to help the unemployed citizens get through a tough time if you aren’t spending a fortune educating illegal immigrations.

  12. @Secular Trad
    There are quite a few typos in here, Steve. I can't list them all.

    My other question is: Should we patriotic immigration restrictionists worry about what appears to have been a fall in native employment?

    “In a separate analysis, economists Sarah Bohn and Magnus Lofstrom of the Public Policy Institute of California and Steven Raphael of the University of California at Berkeley conclude that employment declined for low-skilled white native workers in Arizona during 2008 and 2009, the height of the out-migration.”

    Economists have a habit of attributing all kinds of variation to migration effects. Remember anything happening to the economy in 2009?

    Another case in point (at least here in Europe) is analysis over area. Cities have developed much better economically than rural areas and industrial towns in the past 25 years. Cities also have more immigrants, which opens a lot of ways for statistical sleight-of-hand.

  13. @Reg Cæsar

    how much is collected from illegal immigrants through taxation...
     
    I'm sure the IRS is getting a whole lot from minimum-wage workers with several kids.

    In fact, a more interesting question might be, “How much native-born tax receipts are being redistributed to illegal aliens in the form of “negative income tax” payments like the earned income credit?”

  14. If the WSJ is calling this whole rigmarole a split decision, we can rest assured it’s really immigration restrictionists in a walk over. Agree w/ @ed, above; if I were Trump, I’d be carrying this piece around in my front suit pocket.

    • Agree: ben tillman
    • Replies: @AlexT
    Right on! He needs to hammer this point home incessantly. Talking about the wall is fine, but he needs to repeat why the wall is good so often, that even undecided voters will be able to recite his arguments.
    , @carol
    Also NH has a recent unhappy history with refugee resettlement, to the point they begged no mas in 2011.

    I wonder how how much of a factor that was.
  15. @Reg Cæsar

    how much is collected from illegal immigrants through taxation...
     
    I'm sure the IRS is getting a whole lot from minimum-wage workers with several kids.

    My sister used to work for one of the big tax preparation companies. She said it is unbelievable what they would claim. Anyone who thinks more than a tiny minority are paying taxes is nuts.

    • Replies: @Formerly CARealist
    Completely agree, CAL. The entire EITC scheme needs to be scrapped. It encourages people to stop working, or at least move their work under the table once they've made a certain amount for the year.

    I've seen many thousands of W-2's for low-wage workers over the years, just in my small capacity, and ain't none of 'em paying income tax. The EITC allows some of them to get back a good portion of their SS and Medicare tax as well.
  16. “graduates now often mull two or three jobs offers from construction firms and occasionally start at $14.65 an hour instead of $10.”

    The sheer nerve of these people, demanding wages that would earn them ~$30,000 a year instead of $20,000. Such incredible greed.

    • Replies: @Ed
    There's the mythical $15 an hour wage the Dems have been wanting to institute by fiat for sometime now.

    It's truly remarkable how feckless the GOP is around this issue. Without Trump they wouldn't even be discussing the issue & even he doesn't tie immigration to wages or quality of life.

    The GOP really has no answer for the working classes beyond a hope & a prayer.
  17. This is America in microcosm if it halts immigration, and it doesn’t just apply to manual workers. Think of all the tech workers being brought in from Asia, doing jobs Americans would do if there were more incentive. Already, no doubt, there are deep-pocketed lobbyists assuring every political candidate that this would be a disaster for the economy.

    • Replies: @The Alarmist

    Think of all the tech workers being brought in from Asia, doing jobs Americans would do if there were more incentive.
     
    Speaking as a former engineer pushed out of the US labor market by cheaper foreign engineers, I would have happily continued designing aircraft, spacecraft and weapons-systems, and not proliferated the technology to potentially hostle foreign governments, but my potential employers thought they could get more bang for their buck (and lucre for their bank accounts) by taking a flyer on the cheaper, foreign imports regardless of what my personal pricing point might have ultimately been.
    , @ben tillman

    This is America in microcosm if it halts immigration, and it doesn’t just apply to manual workers. Think of all the tech workers being brought in from Asia, doing jobs Americans would do if there were more incentive.
     
    Don't forget about nurses and, presumably soon, doctors as in the UK.
  18. The labor shortage has caused some wages to rise. Carlos Avelar, a placement officer at Phoenix Job Corps, a federal job-training center, says graduates now often mull two or three jobs offers from construction firms and occasionally start at $14.65 an hour instead of $10.

    I did construction work briefly (due to a car accident) in 1988. I started at $12 and hour, with promises that raises would come fairly quickly if I was any good whatsoever. The idea that 20 years on that wages had fallen? Well, we know for whose benefit the country is being run from these numbers alone.

  19. @John Mansfield
    "The labor shortage has caused some wages to rise. Carlos Avelar, a placement officer at Phoenix Job Corps, a federal job-training center, says graduates now often mull two or three jobs offers from construction firms and occasionally start at $14.65 an hour instead of $10.

    "At DTR Landscape Development LLC, the firm’s president, Dick Roberts, says he has increased his starting wage by 60% to $14.50 an hour because he is having trouble finding reliable workers."

    A point of reference for me is Danny Tyra, a kid I met in high school metal shop in 1984, when I was a senior and he was a sophomore. Three years after high school for me, one year for him, we met one night in a convenience store and spent a few happy minutes catching up. He bragged, in an appropriate way, that he was making $500 a week with his landscaping job. Before I was done with my BS in engineering I also made that much in a summer intern position; the summer before that I was making $6.50 an hour simply cleaning up construction debris at tract home developments and hauling it to the dump; the summer straight out of high school I made $5 an hour at as a helper with a roofing company, mostly carrying tile, shingles, and rolls around rooftops and taking part in reroofing tear-offs.

    That was 30 years of inflation ago. Now the idea seems to be that labor should be done by Mexicans for $10 an hour, and college students should start their lives of genteel debt.

    Correction: My memory mixed up Danny a bit with his younger brother. Danny was my age, so at the time he was happily pulling in $500 a week doing landscaping he was 21 years old in 1987, 3 years out of high school.

  20. “I could pull out phone books where I had 300 or 400 guys’ numbers” to fill out crews, recalls company President Jeremy Barbosa. No longer. Many immigrants left and haven’t returned, while other workers moved on to other industries. …

    Did many immigrants leave, or did many illegal aliens leave?

    The labor shortage has caused some wages to rise. Carlos Avelar, a placement officer at Phoenix Job Corps, a federal job-training center, says graduates now often mull two or three jobs offers from construction firms and occasionally start at $14.65 an hour instead of $10.

    Hey, fast food workers on strike and Bernie supporters, listen up. You want an wage increase for those on the bottom? Here’s your answer. Reduce the supply of labor by tightening immigration. Vote Trump.

    • Replies: @AlexT
    I had that argument with a Canadian communist the other day. He said that my argument was faulty because even restrictionist countries like Japan have poverty, hence immigrants aren't the problem. Some people actively refuse to learn.
  21. The article starts out with some premises that are lies and then build an edifice of lies on top of that. There is no labor shortage in Arizona or most anywhere for that matter. Real unemployment is probably close to 5 times the fake reported national rate. No way to know for sure. The data have been massaged to give BHO the “Unemployment under 5%” headline that makes him look good, just like years of QE Infinity brought the Dow to record levels in the middle of a depression. Many among the employed are underemployed, working less than full time hours or working jobs paying less than previously. The only people living high on the hog are government employees, who have honed clock watching to an art while bitching and moaning about budget cuts and understaffing .The situation wrt illegals in Arizona may be a little different from surrounding states. Laws passed before the famous SB 1070 law that brought Arizona so much national attention created real penalties for employers hiring the undocumented. Employers who were in a position to be penalized under these laws really did stop hiring illegals. This was mostly those with fixed locations that had no way to avoid surprise inspections. Many undocumented fled the state to greener pastures in other states. Many left their wives and children behind. with Section 8, SNAP, Medicaid and many other government programs contributing to their upkeep.

    As far as paying income taxes: The Earned Income Tax Credit has still not entered public and pundit consciousness despite more than 20 year since its creation under Clinton. The EITC results in tax refunds greater than taxes paid for those with low paying jobs and dependents. Through a complicated formula anyone filing a tax return with relatively low income and dependent children receives an income tax refund check totaling thousands more than contributed in taxes in the first place. The Democrats have gamed the system beautifully in that low income working people now look forward to tax season. Filing a tax return is equated with getting free money from the government. The free shit army rides again

    • Agree: Jim Don Bob
    • Replies: @NOTA
    There's not a shortage of labor, there's a supply curve of labor. Increase the supply or decrease the demand, wages go down; decrease the supply or increase the demand, they go up.
    , @MarkinLA
    The EITC started under Ford.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/paul-abrams/reagan-the-redistributor_b_138428.html
    , @DCThrowback
    This comment gives me the opportunity to link this ridiculous commercial, which is the equivalent to the "Rocket Mortgage" commercials level of "WTF!!1!":

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiPuuSoTnIw

    "Come in and win $1k for doing your taxes! We'll take a portion of your return, poor people!"

    Needless to say, we should all probably be long H&R Block...for now.
  22. NEOT (Net Entirely Off Topic):

    Mexicans now including the skeletal saint of death in their church rituals:

    Santa Muerte has growing following in Mexico

    Death cult worship doesn’t stop at the Rio Grande.

    File it under “Vibrant”.

    • Replies: @Ivy
    Death cults made an appearance in the neighboring New Mexico in memorable episodes of Breaking Bad.

    Steve, there are data proxies for consideration. Look for downtrends in DUI, hit-and-run and uninsured motorist claims to add onto the economic benefits of lower illegal population. Those are direct items, with associated indirect items like changes in insurance premiums and lower auto theft. YMMV.
    , @Yngvar
    True.
    Iv'e said, and I'm sure I'm not the only one, that Brazil will never escape 'third world' as long as they embrace 'carnival'.
    It's a mental state.
  23. If 40% of the immigrants left, then there was a significant drop in population. That needs to be taken into account when considering the so-called bad news highlighted by the article.

    A 2% drop in GDP – With a shrinking population, GDP per capita would be more important. If a smaller population is more productive per person, then the economy is actually growing from individuals’ points of view.

    “Because of the departures, total employment in the state was 2.5% lower” – Total employment is the number of people who have jobs. If the population shrank, the people who stayed could have been more prosperous even if fewer people are in the workforce. Did unemployment go up or down? Did the number of discouraged workers who aren’t counted in employment percentages go up or down?

    I think a little short-term pain could be worth it if Arizona ends up healthier in the long run, but it looks to me like there might not have been any short-term pain anyway. Some economic indicators went down in absolute terms, but probably went up in relative terms.

  24. Grrrrr. Bald-faced dishonesty.

    It concluded that the departures alone had reduced Arizona’s gross domestic product by an average of 2% a year between 2008 and 2015. Because of the departures, total employment in the state was 2.5% lower, on average, than it otherwise would have been between 2008 and 2015, according to Moody’s.

    Looking at TOTAL production and employment rather than PER CAPITA production and employment means nothing of course since total production and employment are primarily driven by population size, so it is a mathematical certainty that when some people leave, the totals will decline.

    If total production and employment were actually the right thing to look at, then Arizona should merge with California — total production and employment would increase instantly by 700% without lifting a finger.

    Looking at the numbers suggests that the outmigration actually improved the per capita numbers. The departures reduced Arizona’s population by 3% (200,000 / 6.7 million), but total production fell only 2% and total employment fell only 2.5%, so per capita production and employment actually rose (because the denominators fell 3% while the numerators fell by less than 3%).

    Grrrrr.

  25. We might also look at the cost of the current opioid epidemic when assessing the cost of illegal immigrants. I wonder how many white high school dropouts chose to simply drop out of society and waste their life to heroin – brought here courtesy of Mexicans – when they found that any prospective jobs were already taken – by Mexicans.

    • Agree: Harry Baldwin
    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    Fozzie, I pointed this out on another article, but Erie, NY where Buffalo is located, recorded 23 opiate related deaths in 10 days. That is a startling number.
  26. I consider the phrase “jobs that Americans won’t do” to be fighting words.

    Because it says that Americans are too lazy and snooty and worthless to work menial jobs. Which is belied by say, all of history before NAFTA and amnesty and 1965 and even up to the 1990s.

    Which would include me, as an American.

    I have told people who say this that if they say that around me I will fight them. Literally fight them. For insulting me, my family, and my fellow Americans.

    • Agree: Luke Lea
    • Replies: @David
    Where do you stand on the first amendment?
    , @Buffalo Joe
    Whorefinder, I agree and I've got your back.
    , @MarkinLA
    They need to tell themselves that when they are hiring an illegal alien so they aren't the scum they know deep down they are.
    , @Harry Baldwin
    Since the black unemployment rate is significantly higher than that of whites, ask them if what they're really saying is "jobs that African Americans won’t do”? And isn't that racist? Aren't they saying that blacks are lazy and shiftless and would rather sit around than work? Isn't that the obvious implication? Break their balls about it.
    , @iSteveFan
    Note that they always say, "jobs Americans won't do", but they never finish that phrase with the following stipulation, "for that wage". Yes, there are jobs Americans won't do for that wage. But if you raise the wage you will eventually hit a point where someone will do it.

    In fact Americans will do most anything if the wage is right, from kinky acts to making fools of themselves on reality tv.
  27. The recession, of course, also hurt the state’s economy. Mr. Hanson, the immigration economist, said the economic downturn led many migrants to leave.

    Hmmmm.

    This suggests that immigration greatly exacerbated the severity of the housing bubble, both the inflation of the bubble and the bursting of the bubble.

    The housing market is very sensitive to small changes in population. New construction is only a small percentage of total housing (about 1% right now), so if a surge in immigration makes population grow 1% faster than it would otherwise, it can double new construction. The same thing happens in reverse if immigrants leave — new construction can be severely reduced. So, immigrants entering and then leaving the country in large numbers can violently whipsaw the housing market.

    Note that natives don’t do this to the housing market. In a recession, natives may change their spending habits, but the demand for housing doesn’t change much because they still have to live somewhere — they don’t just go to another country leaving behind an empty house. So, native Americans don’t produce these violent shifts in housing demand.

    • Replies: @Wilkey
    "The housing market is very sensitive to small changes in population. New construction is only a small percentage of total housing (about 1% right now), so if a surge in immigration makes population grow 1% faster than it would otherwise, it can double new construction."

    If people don't understand who so many industries are so fanatically, almost violently, in favor of mass immigration, that explanation covers it pretty well. Without population growth the construction market is mostly limited to renovating and replacing old housing stock and shifts in population (net population movements from one region to another). Population growth (at least half of which is due to immigration) has an outsized impact on markets for homes, offices, and durable goods. Those tend to be "Republican" industries. That's why the Republican donor class wants massive levels of immigration while Republican voters do not.

    It's naive to assume that there aren't positive economic benefits from mass immigration. It increases demand for services from a huge number of industries. Sending 12 million illegals home would take a pretty big hit on the economy - which is why we should have sent them all home when the economy tanked in 2008, and why we should never have let them in here at all, and why we definitely should never, never, ever have "guestworker" programs.

    The net economic effect of mass deportation will be the equivalent of drug withdrawal for a junkie. Whole industries have been built and overbuilt around the assumption of cheap and pliant stoop labor.

    There are a lot of reasons why mass deportation of illegals needs to happen but few (if any) are due to short-term economic considerations, which leaves us with a certain irony: the WSJ chose the one area that should have been most favorable to the open borders argument, and still found it wanting.
  28. @DCThrowback
    If the WSJ is calling this whole rigmarole a split decision, we can rest assured it's really immigration restrictionists in a walk over. Agree w/ @ed, above; if I were Trump, I'd be carrying this piece around in my front suit pocket.

    Right on! He needs to hammer this point home incessantly. Talking about the wall is fine, but he needs to repeat why the wall is good so often, that even undecided voters will be able to recite his arguments.

  29. @iSteveFan

    “I could pull out phone books where I had 300 or 400 guys’ numbers” to fill out crews, recalls company President Jeremy Barbosa. No longer. Many immigrants left and haven’t returned, while other workers moved on to other industries. …
     
    Did many immigrants leave, or did many illegal aliens leave?

    The labor shortage has caused some wages to rise. Carlos Avelar, a placement officer at Phoenix Job Corps, a federal job-training center, says graduates now often mull two or three jobs offers from construction firms and occasionally start at $14.65 an hour instead of $10.
     
    Hey, fast food workers on strike and Bernie supporters, listen up. You want an wage increase for those on the bottom? Here's your answer. Reduce the supply of labor by tightening immigration. Vote Trump.

    I had that argument with a Canadian communist the other day. He said that my argument was faulty because even restrictionist countries like Japan have poverty, hence immigrants aren’t the problem. Some people actively refuse to learn.

    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    Alex T, Are you a Canadian? The Canadian dollar has nose dived since Trudeau was elected. Now down to 65 cents on the dollar. My son and I are planning a fly in fishing trip to northern Ontario in August, they want our deposit in US dollars.....yeah, right.
    , @Harry Baldwin
    Yes indeed, we're all familiar with the vast squalid slums that surround every city in Japan.
    , @unpc downunder
    I heard a similar argument from an Australian libertarian. He visited Japan and noticed guys sleeping under bridges and concluded that Anglo economies were superior to East Asian ones. However, Japan (for better or worse) has a much more limited welfare system that most western countries, and some people do end up homeless. However, the overall unemployment rate is about half what it is in English-speaking countries.
  30. @Wilkey
    "graduates now often mull two or three jobs offers from construction firms and occasionally start at $14.65 an hour instead of $10."

    The sheer nerve of these people, demanding wages that would earn them ~$30,000 a year instead of $20,000. Such incredible greed.

    There’s the mythical $15 an hour wage the Dems have been wanting to institute by fiat for sometime now.

    It’s truly remarkable how feckless the GOP is around this issue. Without Trump they wouldn’t even be discussing the issue & even he doesn’t tie immigration to wages or quality of life.

    The GOP really has no answer for the working classes beyond a hope & a prayer.

    • Replies: @Leftist conservative

    It’s truly remarkable how feckless the GOP is around this issue. Without Trump they wouldn’t even be discussing the issue & even he doesn’t tie immigration to wages or quality of life.
     
    He has hinted at it. Look for Trump to start looking at immigration from an economic perspective once he has the nomination locked up.

    The GOP really has no answer for the working classes beyond a hope & a prayer.
     
    Trump is not the GOP.
  31. @CAL
    My sister used to work for one of the big tax preparation companies. She said it is unbelievable what they would claim. Anyone who thinks more than a tiny minority are paying taxes is nuts.

    Completely agree, CAL. The entire EITC scheme needs to be scrapped. It encourages people to stop working, or at least move their work under the table once they’ve made a certain amount for the year.

    I’ve seen many thousands of W-2′s for low-wage workers over the years, just in my small capacity, and ain’t none of ‘em paying income tax. The EITC allows some of them to get back a good portion of their SS and Medicare tax as well.

  32. So Rob Knorr invests $2 million and invents a Pepper Picker. Now he doesn’t need as many field hands and the crops don’t rot in the field and that is the American Way! Innovate, invent, invest and sell your machinery to other farms, and in other lands. The operator and mechanic for such a machine will make more than any field hand and rightly so. WSJ is usually fair and balanced so I like to read it. The other media would probably put Knorr down as a heartless soul who should have been paying his workers $15 per/hr. with benefits. Tech innovation is greatly admired, farm machinery not so much.

    • Replies: @William BadWhite
    "WSJ is usually fair and balanced so I like to read it. "

    Not on the topic of immigration. I cancelled my subscription about 3 years ago because if I had to read one more editorial about how MORE IMMIGRATION is the answer to everything (well, immigration and war with Iran) my head was going to explode.

    The clincher was a guest editorial by the CEO of Chipotle (before they were busy poisoning people) not just making a case for why Chipotle ("what's good for Chipotle is good for America"?) needed "access" to scores of workers, but he was angry and indignant about it.
    , @Buffalo Joe
    William, Thank you, but no media source always fits my liking, WSJ just more so than others.
  33. @Secular Trad
    There are quite a few typos in here, Steve. I can't list them all.

    My other question is: Should we patriotic immigration restrictionists worry about what appears to have been a fall in native employment?

    Secular Trad, Steve used to employ migrant workers to proof read and edit, now he uses Spell Check so all those migrant editors have returned to Mexico or where ever. It’s like using a Mechanical Pepper Picker, you get an occasional stem or bug, but the over all benefits are worth it. If you find a typo, spit it out.

  34. I don’t think we’ve heard the last of Jeb! He’s got tons of money, lots of endorsements, and an organization in South Carolina and Nevada. He can go the distance, and I would not be surprised to see him employ the same kind of character assassination against Rubio that his brother used so nastily against John McCain.

    Besides Trump is a joke with no real support outside of angry loner losers

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    "Besides Trump is a joke with no real support outside of angry loner losers

    Fruit? Seriously? You sound like a real tough guy! :)
    , @Buffalo Joe
    Fruit, I think NH shows that Trump's following is more than "angry loner losers" Is your last name Cake by any chance?
  35. Is there enough data there to calculate how much income was re-redistributed from capital and business owners to working American citizens after the illegals departed? Add that to the total tax savings and what does it come out to for the average Arizona wage-working citizen? As a percentage of his or her total income?

  36. SS: …the Sand State Housing Bubble was based in significant measure on the circular reasoning that importing lots of cheap illegal aliens to build houses for people trying to get their kids away from having to go to school with the children of illegal aliens was a sustainable economic proposition…

    Excellent observation!

  37. @DCThrowback
    If the WSJ is calling this whole rigmarole a split decision, we can rest assured it's really immigration restrictionists in a walk over. Agree w/ @ed, above; if I were Trump, I'd be carrying this piece around in my front suit pocket.

    Also NH has a recent unhappy history with refugee resettlement, to the point they begged no mas in 2011.

    I wonder how how much of a factor that was.

  38. You really got to love economists crying about the loss of jobs that have to be subsidized by the taxpayer. Just how is this efficient? Not only that but they continually cry for a never ending supply of such jobs. I guess when you have a PhD in economics, it never occurs to you that you cannot pay the rent, utilities, maintain a car and buy food on 400 dollars a week.

  39. It bugs me that the vast majority of the immigration debate is about splitting economic hairs. Few people talk about culture, customs, crime or *gasp* genes. “We’re all just interchangeable, atomistic Homo economicus individuals. Nothing to see here, folks. Move along now.”

    And although the economic data is probably more complex than many nativists let on, it seems that third world immigration is a really bad idea from just an economic point of view.

  40. I have lived in southern Arizona during this entire episode, and I have never heard or seen in print a single negative comment about illegals leaving the State. Nor do I see any evidence that the Cartel, which provides the actual law and order in south Tucson, is anything but happy about the current state of things regarding immigration here.

  41. Leftist conservative [AKA "GOD ✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ"] says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    These types of stories need to be highlighted far more often – the left always frames immigration as an issue of compassion and overlooks what that costs low-educator/low-skill American workers who are struggling for self-sufficiency.

    yes, liberals and the media are so propagandized to believe that immigrants are holy that they cannot or will not look at the issue from that perspective. It is taboo to say anything bad about immigrants.

    also, conservatives are so propagandized against the idea that Capital and Labor are opposed that many of them find it hard to look at it from this perspective. The tenets of conservatism make it taboo to even use the words Labor and Capital in the same thought or paragraph.

  42. Leftist conservative [AKA "GOD ✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ"] says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @Ed
    There's the mythical $15 an hour wage the Dems have been wanting to institute by fiat for sometime now.

    It's truly remarkable how feckless the GOP is around this issue. Without Trump they wouldn't even be discussing the issue & even he doesn't tie immigration to wages or quality of life.

    The GOP really has no answer for the working classes beyond a hope & a prayer.

    It’s truly remarkable how feckless the GOP is around this issue. Without Trump they wouldn’t even be discussing the issue & even he doesn’t tie immigration to wages or quality of life.

    He has hinted at it. Look for Trump to start looking at immigration from an economic perspective once he has the nomination locked up.

    The GOP really has no answer for the working classes beyond a hope & a prayer.

    Trump is not the GOP.

  43. It seems to me that the 1924-1965 reduction in immigration laid the foundation of the great American middle class which is now dwindling away.

  44. @Ed
    Going for making under $20k a year to little over $30k a year, seems like a win to me for American workers. Less spending on immigrant services is just gravy.

    I guy that didn't finish HS can at least strung together a respectable living maybe even find a gal to marry. This a perfect article for Trump or any other sensible candidate to use to transition into more specifics about benefits of restricting immigration.

    And that pay increase translates into about $1,500 or so more in social security taxes.

  45. So, the annual Arizona immigrant costs you’ve found are:

    School costs: $350,000,000
    Emergency medical: $61,000,000
    Incarceration: $22,000,000

    Looking at Arizona state budgets, I noted that the total spent on welfare declined from about $4.1 billion in 2010 to $2.9 billion in 2014. Since Arizona has the highest percentage of immigrant families on welfare (62%), it’s not unreasonable to think that some of that $1.2 billion savings is due to disappearing immigrant families (both welfare paid to immigrants, as well as to citizen families off the welfare roles due to increased employment and wages).

    If it’s true that US immigrants sent $110 billion home in 2001, with about 40 million of them, that’s about $2,600 per person. Pew Hispanic estimates that about 200,000 illegals left Arizona between 2007 and 2014. If you multiply that out, you get about $500 million that is no longer being sent out of the country by illegals working in Arizona.

    Of course, it would be great if We (the People) could get reliable work done by real economists, but the back of the envelope is what we have for now…

    • Replies: @iSteveFan
    If any of you guys have a facebook, google or twitter account, post comments at Mother Jones about this story. Most of the commenters at Mother Jones are interpreting this WSJ article as a big fail for Arizona. They claim this proves we need immigration.
  46. OT

    I don’t understand why the EU tyrants/Merkel/Soros want to destroy Greece. They say they are sealing the Greek border off from the rest of Europe. This mess isn’t their fault. The Greeks are really suffering under Mutti. . So why obliterate them one? Is the Golden Dawn more powerful than I ever imagine?

    Thanks in advance .

    • Replies: @Bert
    I don't see Greece setting up a fence like Hungary did. When they do I'll have sympathy for them.

    Look, I understand Greece is in a miserable position right now, but they brought most of it on themselves due to their love of credit and dislike of work and taxes. Their house needs a complete overhaul.

  47. Good ol’ Caesar Chavez and the UFW union. There used to be a guest worker “Bracero” program in Cal. Guys would come north to work the fields, make a modest but honest buck, then send or better BRING home their money to their families in Mexico, where the money went REALLY FAR.

    So,
    1. Workers had legal protection (no coyotes, gang pressure)
    2. No SS tax, income tax?
    3. No anchor babies

    Well, thanks to the UFW, that program was killed by Dems in Sac., workers went mostly illegal with all attending problems including welfare, anchor babies. The UFW workers should be citizen foremen, overseeing guest workers, enjoying better work conditions and higher pay, but instead are just overpaid pickers.
    Thanks, Caesar.

    • Replies: @MarkinLA
    Who cares about Mexican workers? If the government wanted them out of the country they would be out. FWIW, people on both sides of the border screwed the braceros when ever they could.
  48. Not long ago I talked with a flooring contractor who is white.

    He told me that he makes less per project today (and thus, less per year) than he did when he started in the ’80s, primarily because of the immense competition from companies that hire all illegals.

    Progressives like to talk about states like Texas being in a “race to the bottom,” but they miss the point of how and why that is occurring.

    • Replies: @E. Rekshun
    He told me that he makes less per project today (and thus, less per year) than he did when he started in the ’80s

    Thanks to a couple of layoffs and blown opportunities, the Great Recession, and crushing competition, my professional white-collar annual salary is exactly the same today as it was in 1998 before earning my MBA.
  49. OT:

    The texts between “Haven” and Ryan (Jackie’s crush). Comedy gold. Ryan is pretty much fucking with “Haven” from almost the beginning, but it’s not entirely clear if he already knows it’s her or just thinks it’s some annoying weird guy.

    https://localtvwtvr.files.wordpress.com/2016/02/redacted-haven-text.pdf

  50. >>Is it really all that terrible that Americans with no academic skills can now scrape out a living by the sweat of their brows?

    It is terrible for the WSJ and NY Times crowd. The Journal crowd wants the worker to just tough it out, while the Times crowd in addition to wanting them to tough it out would like an injection of massive government spending.

  51. This is off topic, but interesting. I am in Turkish Cyprus a the moment.

    It is poorer than the Greek part of the island, but it has many, many more non-European immigrants, especially Black Africans and Pakistanis. Does any one know why?

    The economy in the South depends on flogging coastal real estate to foreigners. Some of the developers write their advertisements in four languages, which, due to my nomadic lifestyle, I can read.

    English – The best that Cyprus has to offer.
    Russian – Wonderful opportunities.
    Chinese – Specialistists in obtaining permanent residency and a European passport.
    Arabic – We will get lifetime European residency for you.

    There are some Chinese, Pakistanis and Afghans in the South, but not that many. The Afghans are easily recognisable by their propensity for spitting everywhere. The Eastern Europeans in the Immigration office in the South looked as if they has been terrorised in spite of the fact that, as EU nationals, they have a perfect right to be here. The non-Europeans seemed to receive a good deal more courtesy.

    Despite Cyprus’ recent history, it is surprising how many people in the South are PC. Until 1974, the Greeks and Turks in Cyprus lived together. It didn’t work out well as the population of the South soared by 30% when, after a war, the Turks in the North kicked out all the Greeks.

    The North s also a great deal less Islamic than I had expected. Few of the women wear headscarfs. My wife and I have also been watchng a Turksih fashhion show that makes Jermeny Kyle or Jerry Springer look OK. It’s called Iste Benim Stilim. Google it and scream.

  52. …between 2010 and 2014, the annual cost to state prisons of incarcerating noncitizens convicted of felonies fell 11% to $180 million, from $202 million.

    Another benefit … freeing up jobs in the gulag to be done by decent, hard-working Americans at 69 cents per hour.

  53. @Rob McX
    This is America in microcosm if it halts immigration, and it doesn't just apply to manual workers. Think of all the tech workers being brought in from Asia, doing jobs Americans would do if there were more incentive. Already, no doubt, there are deep-pocketed lobbyists assuring every political candidate that this would be a disaster for the economy.

    Think of all the tech workers being brought in from Asia, doing jobs Americans would do if there were more incentive.

    Speaking as a former engineer pushed out of the US labor market by cheaper foreign engineers, I would have happily continued designing aircraft, spacecraft and weapons-systems, and not proliferated the technology to potentially hostle foreign governments, but my potential employers thought they could get more bang for their buck (and lucre for their bank accounts) by taking a flyer on the cheaper, foreign imports regardless of what my personal pricing point might have ultimately been.

    • Replies: @Jim Don Bob
    Agree. H1-B visas are a crime against the middle class, and Cruz wants to -increase- them. These foreign nationals are almost certainly doing technology transfer and are a not inconsiderable security risk. Rumor has it that a foreign national had root access to OPM's databases which is how all the data on 20+ million Americans ended up in the hands of the ChiComs. But the OPM director was the first Hispanic women so that's what really matters.
    , @jesse helms think-alike
    I recall Rmoney's (sic intentional) promise during one of the 2012 debates: (paraphrasing) "I'll staple a green card to every foreign STEM graduate's diploma" and the crowd cheering in response
    Those idiots didn't stop to think that they were cheering for their own jobs to given to Indians and Chinese happy to work for less than half their salary. My heart sank when I heard those words direct from his mouth. This spineless non entity couldn't summon up the testicular fortitude to criticize Barry or rebut Candy Crowley's lies during the second debate had no problem telling his supporters exactly how he was going to f*ck them.

    Until Trump broke the taboo against speaking out against legal immigrants it was (and still is) a standard cuckservative talking point to be in favour of skilled educated legal immigration.

  54. And there you have explicit evidence of why the people that control the GOP want illegals – to kill non-plutocrat wages.

    Remember: Low skilled workers have high skilled friends, family and other in the community they will need to rely on if they’re struggling. Nobody escapes the wage shrinkages. Its ripples through.

  55. Moody’s Analytics looked at Arizona’s economic output for The Wall Street Journal, with an eye toward distinguishing between the effects of the mass departures of illegal immigrants and the recession that hit the state hard beginning in 2008. It concluded that the departures alone had reduced Arizona’s gross domestic product by an average of 2% a year between 2008 and 2015.

    OK, so they are saying that the mass departure of ‘immigrants’ cost the state 2% of GDP per year. What about Mexico and its GDP? If what has left AZ in recent years is considered a ‘mass departure’, how would one describe what has left Mexico in the past 35 years? Has Mexico’s GDP taken a hit over this time? Shouldn’t it have cratered? Why or why not?

  56. @Anon7
    So, the annual Arizona immigrant costs you've found are:

    School costs: $350,000,000
    Emergency medical: $61,000,000
    Incarceration: $22,000,000

    Looking at Arizona state budgets, I noted that the total spent on welfare declined from about $4.1 billion in 2010 to $2.9 billion in 2014. Since Arizona has the highest percentage of immigrant families on welfare (62%), it's not unreasonable to think that some of that $1.2 billion savings is due to disappearing immigrant families (both welfare paid to immigrants, as well as to citizen families off the welfare roles due to increased employment and wages).

    If it's true that US immigrants sent $110 billion home in 2001, with about 40 million of them, that's about $2,600 per person. Pew Hispanic estimates that about 200,000 illegals left Arizona between 2007 and 2014. If you multiply that out, you get about $500 million that is no longer being sent out of the country by illegals working in Arizona.

    Of course, it would be great if We (the People) could get reliable work done by real economists, but the back of the envelope is what we have for now...

    If any of you guys have a facebook, google or twitter account, post comments at Mother Jones about this story. Most of the commenters at Mother Jones are interpreting this WSJ article as a big fail for Arizona. They claim this proves we need immigration.

    • Replies: @Anon7
    The most damning chart at MotherJones is the one that shows a decrease in Arizona's GDP in the years from 2010 to 2014 of several percent year-on-year, amounting to about $6 billion per year. However, I note that on the bottom of their chart, they do not show the source of the chart. Poking around on the internet reveals that it comes from Moody's, a company that works hand in hand with the oligarchs and multinationals who stand to gain the most from unlimited immigration to the US.

    Also, if you look at Arizona's GDP as reported by the Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis, it has actually increased from $250 billion in 2010 to $285 billion in 2014. This does not present a picture of a state ruined after it was deserted by immigrants.

    https://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/AZNGSP

    Like I say, I wish we had economists that we could trust.
  57. Is this article dog whistling?

    Come to think of it, how much of the media is comprised of people who aren’t on board sneaking things in?

  58. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    “Arizona’s immigration flow started to reverse in 2008 after the state became the first to require all employers to use the federal government’s E-Verify system, which searches Social Security records to check whether hires are authorized to work in the U.S. That law coincided with the collapse of the construction industry and the recession.”

    … “The combination persuaded many illegal immigrants to leave for neighboring states or Mexico.”

    Self-deportation will never work. It’s not a real immigration policy.

    “Schooling 80,000 fewer students would save the state roughly $350 million a year, by one measure”

    Holy cow! That’s a lot of dinero.

  59. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    The labor shortage has caused some wages to rise. Carlos Avelar, a placement officer at Phoenix Job Corps, a federal job-training center, says graduates now often mull two or three jobs offers from construction firms and occasionally start at $14.65 an hour instead of $10.

    At DTR Landscape Development LLC, the firm’s president, Dick Roberts, says he has increased his starting wage by 60% to $14.50 an hour because he is having trouble finding reliable workers.

    This must make Ron Unz smile. (IIRC, it’s not exactly the policy he advocates – increasing the minimum wage – but the results seem to be similar.)

  60. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    “Is it really all that terrible that Americans with no academic skills can now scrape out a living by the sweat of their brows?”

    Well, it might make them feel a little uppity, empowered and hopeful, instead of depressed , beaten down and thinking about turning to narcotics. That can’t be good, can it? Think of the oligarchs!

  61. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @Tiny Duck
    I don't think we've heard the last of Jeb! He's got tons of money, lots of endorsements, and an organization in South Carolina and Nevada. He can go the distance, and I would not be surprised to see him employ the same kind of character assassination against Rubio that his brother used so nastily against John McCain.

    Besides Trump is a joke with no real support outside of angry loner losers

    “Besides Trump is a joke with no real support outside of angry loner losers

    Fruit? Seriously? You sound like a real tough guy! :)

  62. Probably the most frustrating thing for the WSJ types about back ground checks for employment is that there is no dramatic moment or photo opportunity to use as counter propaganda. There is no ICE sowing up dragging children out of their homes, court appearances, or Latino Lives Matter marches.

  63. @Arclight
    These types of stories need to be highlighted far more often - the left always frames immigration as an issue of compassion and overlooks what that costs low-educator/low-skill American workers who are struggling for self-sufficiency.

    The anchor baby/unaccompanied minor issue is also an important one as well. Arizona has so many immigrant children with no parents that it has set up a number of youth shelters to house them until they can figure out what to do with them - a sad state of affairs that exists thanks to our lax approach to immigration.

    There is no need to try to change birthright citizenship. Ignore the child and focus on the parents. Exclude the parents and any direct family member of the parents of any child born in america to non-citizen parents from any US Immigration or visa programs other than a tourist visa. For any child where the mother is a non-citizen and will not identify the father presume the father is a US citizen and turn the child over to child welfare for adoption.

    If the parents can provide care for the child in the US then great they are welcome to do so. Their presence here is limited to the terms of a tourist visa. If they can show dual citizenship for the child they are welcome to take the child home with them to their nation of origin. The child will remain welcome to come and go the same as any citizen. If they take the child out of the US they are barred for a period of 18 years or until the child reaches 18 from even a tourist visa.

  64. OT Steve, but this here is fascinating on many different levels. First is the Saudi/Bush relationship. Second is what a beta Jeb! is with his awkward jokes. “Maybe Andrea has them.”

    http://www.infowars.com/exclusive-jeb-scurries-when-confronted-on-missing-pages-of-911-report/

  65. @whorefinder
    I consider the phrase "jobs that Americans won't do" to be fighting words.

    Because it says that Americans are too lazy and snooty and worthless to work menial jobs. Which is belied by say, all of history before NAFTA and amnesty and 1965 and even up to the 1990s.

    Which would include me, as an American.

    I have told people who say this that if they say that around me I will fight them. Literally fight them. For insulting me, my family, and my fellow Americans.

    Where do you stand on the first amendment?

  66. @Leftist conservative
    we can move forward on this immigration debate, reach the next level, only when the american working class understands that the media and the government views the "economy" from the perspective of Capital. And the american working class needs to understand that there is another "economy"--the economy of the working class.

    There are two separate economies:

    1) the economy of the corporations,of Capital. This is the one discussed endlessly by media and government. This is the economy that is benefited by mass immigration. The Establishment seeks to grow this economy via immigration.

    2) the economy of most american working class citizens. This is the economy of Labor. Citizen Labor. This economy is damaged by mass immigration.

    Capital Economy vs Labor Economy. These two economies need to be discussed separately.
    Until the american working class makes this realization and forces the media to see things from this perspective, we will not be able to move to the next level.

    A good point. What you are after is this I think. Top 10 all Eurosphere.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_average_wage

    Better would be less cost of living. Not sure if this is it but all I could find. Top 14 all Eurosphere.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income

    I looked some more. This is better. Top 16 all Eurosphere.

    http://skift.com/2013/05/15/u-s-has-the-highest-disposable-income-as-uk-slips-down-the-list/

    A great map:

    http://www.movehub.com/blog/disposable-income-world-map

    USA still number 1 but not by much.

  67. @Thea
    OT

    I don't understand why the EU tyrants/Merkel/Soros want to destroy Greece. They say they are sealing the Greek border off from the rest of Europe. This mess isn't their fault. The Greeks are really suffering under Mutti. . So why obliterate them one? Is the Golden Dawn more powerful than I ever imagine?

    Thanks in advance .

    I don’t see Greece setting up a fence like Hungary did. When they do I’ll have sympathy for them.

    Look, I understand Greece is in a miserable position right now, but they brought most of it on themselves due to their love of credit and dislike of work and taxes. Their house needs a complete overhaul.

    • Replies: @Cagey Beast
    I don’t see Greece setting up a fence like Hungary did. When they do I’ll have sympathy for them.

    Have you not noticed the migrants arrive on Greek territory via boats landing on Greek islands? Also, do an image search using the terms "Greek Turkish border fence" and you'll see there is one where the two countries share a land border.
  68. Part of this is the belief that every single American child is supposed to go to college, therefore all that work all about us that obviously doesn’t take a college education to perform is not fit for Americans, so the only option is to propagate an underclass of imported peasants for those jobs.

  69. @Buffalo Joe
    So Rob Knorr invests $2 million and invents a Pepper Picker. Now he doesn't need as many field hands and the crops don't rot in the field and that is the American Way! Innovate, invent, invest and sell your machinery to other farms, and in other lands. The operator and mechanic for such a machine will make more than any field hand and rightly so. WSJ is usually fair and balanced so I like to read it. The other media would probably put Knorr down as a heartless soul who should have been paying his workers $15 per/hr. with benefits. Tech innovation is greatly admired, farm machinery not so much.

    “WSJ is usually fair and balanced so I like to read it. ”

    Not on the topic of immigration. I cancelled my subscription about 3 years ago because if I had to read one more editorial about how MORE IMMIGRATION is the answer to everything (well, immigration and war with Iran) my head was going to explode.

    The clincher was a guest editorial by the CEO of Chipotle (before they were busy poisoning people) not just making a case for why Chipotle (“what’s good for Chipotle is good for America”?) needed “access” to scores of workers, but he was angry and indignant about it.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    I also cancelled my WSJ subscription years ago because of its stance on immigration.
    , @Wrd9
    Yes, which is why I'm delighting in their current travails.
  70. @FozzieT
    We might also look at the cost of the current opioid epidemic when assessing the cost of illegal immigrants. I wonder how many white high school dropouts chose to simply drop out of society and waste their life to heroin - brought here courtesy of Mexicans - when they found that any prospective jobs were already taken - by Mexicans.

    Fozzie, I pointed this out on another article, but Erie, NY where Buffalo is located, recorded 23 opiate related deaths in 10 days. That is a startling number.

  71. @whorefinder
    I consider the phrase "jobs that Americans won't do" to be fighting words.

    Because it says that Americans are too lazy and snooty and worthless to work menial jobs. Which is belied by say, all of history before NAFTA and amnesty and 1965 and even up to the 1990s.

    Which would include me, as an American.

    I have told people who say this that if they say that around me I will fight them. Literally fight them. For insulting me, my family, and my fellow Americans.

    Whorefinder, I agree and I’ve got your back.

  72. @jesse helms think-alike
    The article starts out with some premises that are lies and then build an edifice of lies on top of that. There is no labor shortage in Arizona or most anywhere for that matter. Real unemployment is probably close to 5 times the fake reported national rate. No way to know for sure. The data have been massaged to give BHO the "Unemployment under 5%" headline that makes him look good, just like years of QE Infinity brought the Dow to record levels in the middle of a depression. Many among the employed are underemployed, working less than full time hours or working jobs paying less than previously. The only people living high on the hog are government employees, who have honed clock watching to an art while bitching and moaning about budget cuts and understaffing .The situation wrt illegals in Arizona may be a little different from surrounding states. Laws passed before the famous SB 1070 law that brought Arizona so much national attention created real penalties for employers hiring the undocumented. Employers who were in a position to be penalized under these laws really did stop hiring illegals. This was mostly those with fixed locations that had no way to avoid surprise inspections. Many undocumented fled the state to greener pastures in other states. Many left their wives and children behind. with Section 8, SNAP, Medicaid and many other government programs contributing to their upkeep.

    As far as paying income taxes: The Earned Income Tax Credit has still not entered public and pundit consciousness despite more than 20 year since its creation under Clinton. The EITC results in tax refunds greater than taxes paid for those with low paying jobs and dependents. Through a complicated formula anyone filing a tax return with relatively low income and dependent children receives an income tax refund check totaling thousands more than contributed in taxes in the first place. The Democrats have gamed the system beautifully in that low income working people now look forward to tax season. Filing a tax return is equated with getting free money from the government. The free shit army rides again

    There’s not a shortage of labor, there’s a supply curve of labor. Increase the supply or decrease the demand, wages go down; decrease the supply or increase the demand, they go up.

  73. @AlexT
    I had that argument with a Canadian communist the other day. He said that my argument was faulty because even restrictionist countries like Japan have poverty, hence immigrants aren't the problem. Some people actively refuse to learn.

    Alex T, Are you a Canadian? The Canadian dollar has nose dived since Trudeau was elected. Now down to 65 cents on the dollar. My son and I are planning a fly in fishing trip to northern Ontario in August, they want our deposit in US dollars…..yeah, right.

  74. @Tiny Duck
    I don't think we've heard the last of Jeb! He's got tons of money, lots of endorsements, and an organization in South Carolina and Nevada. He can go the distance, and I would not be surprised to see him employ the same kind of character assassination against Rubio that his brother used so nastily against John McCain.

    Besides Trump is a joke with no real support outside of angry loner losers

    Fruit, I think NH shows that Trump’s following is more than “angry loner losers” Is your last name Cake by any chance?

  75. @poolside
    Not long ago I talked with a flooring contractor who is white.

    He told me that he makes less per project today (and thus, less per year) than he did when he started in the '80s, primarily because of the immense competition from companies that hire all illegals.

    Progressives like to talk about states like Texas being in a "race to the bottom," but they miss the point of how and why that is occurring.

    He told me that he makes less per project today (and thus, less per year) than he did when he started in the ’80s

    Thanks to a couple of layoffs and blown opportunities, the Great Recession, and crushing competition, my professional white-collar annual salary is exactly the same today as it was in 1998 before earning my MBA.

  76. @Buffalo Joe
    So Rob Knorr invests $2 million and invents a Pepper Picker. Now he doesn't need as many field hands and the crops don't rot in the field and that is the American Way! Innovate, invent, invest and sell your machinery to other farms, and in other lands. The operator and mechanic for such a machine will make more than any field hand and rightly so. WSJ is usually fair and balanced so I like to read it. The other media would probably put Knorr down as a heartless soul who should have been paying his workers $15 per/hr. with benefits. Tech innovation is greatly admired, farm machinery not so much.

    William, Thank you, but no media source always fits my liking, WSJ just more so than others.

  77. @The Alarmist

    Think of all the tech workers being brought in from Asia, doing jobs Americans would do if there were more incentive.
     
    Speaking as a former engineer pushed out of the US labor market by cheaper foreign engineers, I would have happily continued designing aircraft, spacecraft and weapons-systems, and not proliferated the technology to potentially hostle foreign governments, but my potential employers thought they could get more bang for their buck (and lucre for their bank accounts) by taking a flyer on the cheaper, foreign imports regardless of what my personal pricing point might have ultimately been.

    Agree. H1-B visas are a crime against the middle class, and Cruz wants to -increase- them. These foreign nationals are almost certainly doing technology transfer and are a not inconsiderable security risk. Rumor has it that a foreign national had root access to OPM’s databases which is how all the data on 20+ million Americans ended up in the hands of the ChiComs. But the OPM director was the first Hispanic women so that’s what really matters.

  78. @Secular Trad
    There are quite a few typos in here, Steve. I can't list them all.

    My other question is: Should we patriotic immigration restrictionists worry about what appears to have been a fall in native employment?

    You probably should. This is the problem with protectionism: you focus on one particular group, say native-born construction workers, and then try to legislate to protect their jobs, but you end up costing everybody else, creating a net loss in prosperity.

    The point about saving costs to the public purse, however, is spot on. “Free” benefits, whether direct handouts or indirect benefits like public schooling, are obviously going to attract those more likely to take advantage of them, such as unskilled Mexicans.

    • Replies: @Luke Lea
    "This is the problem with protectionism: you focus on one particular group, say native-born construction workers, and then try to legislate to protect their jobs, but you end up costing everybody else, creating a net loss in prosperity."

    A common misperception: https://goo.gl/ogyov5 (Read last paragraph for conclusion)

    The Walmart effect (lower prices) is not as big as the McDonald's effect (lower wages). Economists should point this out more often, except that it is taboo in the field. Free Trade is PC.
  79. Since 2012, Arizona’s illegal-immigrant population hasn’t grown much, if at all, according to state economists and employers and preliminary data from Pew. Since 2007, about 200,000 undocumented immigrants have left the state, which has a population of 6.7 million.

    (6.9 – 6.7) / (6.9) = 2.9% reduction in population

    The state supposedly lost 2% of its GDP. That looks like a net gain per person to me.

    • Replies: @The Alarmist
    (6.9 – 6.7) / (6.9) = 2.9% reduction in population

    The state supposedly lost 2% of its GDP. That looks like a net gain per person to me.

    I will spare you the math, but on a national level, real total national GDP has declined when actual inflation stats are applied ... think of how much worse it is on a per capita basis when the dilutive effects of immigration are factored in.
  80. @Mr. Anon
    NEOT (Net Entirely Off Topic):

    Mexicans now including the skeletal saint of death in their church rituals:

    Santa Muerte has growing following in Mexico

    Death cult worship doesn't stop at the Rio Grande.

    File it under "Vibrant".

    Death cults made an appearance in the neighboring New Mexico in memorable episodes of Breaking Bad.

    Steve, there are data proxies for consideration. Look for downtrends in DUI, hit-and-run and uninsured motorist claims to add onto the economic benefits of lower illegal population. Those are direct items, with associated indirect items like changes in insurance premiums and lower auto theft. YMMV.

  81. @Bert
    I don't see Greece setting up a fence like Hungary did. When they do I'll have sympathy for them.

    Look, I understand Greece is in a miserable position right now, but they brought most of it on themselves due to their love of credit and dislike of work and taxes. Their house needs a complete overhaul.

    I don’t see Greece setting up a fence like Hungary did. When they do I’ll have sympathy for them.

    Have you not noticed the migrants arrive on Greek territory via boats landing on Greek islands? Also, do an image search using the terms “Greek Turkish border fence” and you’ll see there is one where the two countries share a land border.

  82. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @William BadWhite
    "WSJ is usually fair and balanced so I like to read it. "

    Not on the topic of immigration. I cancelled my subscription about 3 years ago because if I had to read one more editorial about how MORE IMMIGRATION is the answer to everything (well, immigration and war with Iran) my head was going to explode.

    The clincher was a guest editorial by the CEO of Chipotle (before they were busy poisoning people) not just making a case for why Chipotle ("what's good for Chipotle is good for America"?) needed "access" to scores of workers, but he was angry and indignant about it.

    I also cancelled my WSJ subscription years ago because of its stance on immigration.

  83. @The Alarmist

    Think of all the tech workers being brought in from Asia, doing jobs Americans would do if there were more incentive.
     
    Speaking as a former engineer pushed out of the US labor market by cheaper foreign engineers, I would have happily continued designing aircraft, spacecraft and weapons-systems, and not proliferated the technology to potentially hostle foreign governments, but my potential employers thought they could get more bang for their buck (and lucre for their bank accounts) by taking a flyer on the cheaper, foreign imports regardless of what my personal pricing point might have ultimately been.

    I recall Rmoney’s (sic intentional) promise during one of the 2012 debates: (paraphrasing) “I’ll staple a green card to every foreign STEM graduate’s diploma” and the crowd cheering in response
    Those idiots didn’t stop to think that they were cheering for their own jobs to given to Indians and Chinese happy to work for less than half their salary. My heart sank when I heard those words direct from his mouth. This spineless non entity couldn’t summon up the testicular fortitude to criticize Barry or rebut Candy Crowley’s lies during the second debate had no problem telling his supporters exactly how he was going to f*ck them.

    Until Trump broke the taboo against speaking out against legal immigrants it was (and still is) a standard cuckservative talking point to be in favour of skilled educated legal immigration.

  84. @Xenophon Hendrix

    Since 2012, Arizona’s illegal-immigrant population hasn’t grown much, if at all, according to state economists and employers and preliminary data from Pew. Since 2007, about 200,000 undocumented immigrants have left the state, which has a population of 6.7 million.

     

    (6.9 – 6.7) / (6.9) = 2.9% reduction in population

    The state supposedly lost 2% of its GDP. That looks like a net gain per person to me.

    (6.9 – 6.7) / (6.9) = 2.9% reduction in population

    The state supposedly lost 2% of its GDP. That looks like a net gain per person to me.

    I will spare you the math, but on a national level, real total national GDP has declined when actual inflation stats are applied … think of how much worse it is on a per capita basis when the dilutive effects of immigration are factored in.

  85. @iSteveFan
    If any of you guys have a facebook, google or twitter account, post comments at Mother Jones about this story. Most of the commenters at Mother Jones are interpreting this WSJ article as a big fail for Arizona. They claim this proves we need immigration.

    The most damning chart at MotherJones is the one that shows a decrease in Arizona’s GDP in the years from 2010 to 2014 of several percent year-on-year, amounting to about $6 billion per year. However, I note that on the bottom of their chart, they do not show the source of the chart. Poking around on the internet reveals that it comes from Moody’s, a company that works hand in hand with the oligarchs and multinationals who stand to gain the most from unlimited immigration to the US.

    Also, if you look at Arizona’s GDP as reported by the Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis, it has actually increased from $250 billion in 2010 to $285 billion in 2014. This does not present a picture of a state ruined after it was deserted by immigrants.

    https://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/AZNGSP

    Like I say, I wish we had economists that we could trust.

  86. Here’s my ignorant take on all this shit :

    I live by myself in my own apartment . I struggle to pay my bills . I don’t want any company and I resent any of my hard earned money that these socialist cocksuckers and other dogooders want to give away to the mud people . F**k that shit . I worked all my life because I had to not because I enjoyed it and they can work too or they can starve and die . I don’t care as long as they don’t cost me any money , as long as our masters don’t make me pay for these breeders to continue to suck our life’s blood.

  87. @Buffalo Joe
    Fruit, I think NH shows that Trump's following is more than "angry loner losers" Is your last name Cake by any chance?

    I think its Loop.

  88. Did relief from mass migration help or harm the labor-union movement? I submit that, rather than transitory gains or losses, is the measure of benefit to the masses.

  89. One proxy for relative illegal immigrant population might be Google searches on “consulado” which is a term that would likely skew illegal / 1st gen.

    Texas: steady increase since 2004

    https://www.google.com/trends/explore#geo=US-TX&q=consulado

    California: rise from 2004-09, then leveling off

    https://www.google.com/trends/explore#geo=US-AZ&q=consulado

    Arizona: insufficient data until 2006, then fairly steady or slight decline since then (Dec 2015 was the lowest search volume since ’06)

    https://www.google.com/trends/explore#geo=US-CA&q=consulado

  90. @jesse helms think-alike
    The article starts out with some premises that are lies and then build an edifice of lies on top of that. There is no labor shortage in Arizona or most anywhere for that matter. Real unemployment is probably close to 5 times the fake reported national rate. No way to know for sure. The data have been massaged to give BHO the "Unemployment under 5%" headline that makes him look good, just like years of QE Infinity brought the Dow to record levels in the middle of a depression. Many among the employed are underemployed, working less than full time hours or working jobs paying less than previously. The only people living high on the hog are government employees, who have honed clock watching to an art while bitching and moaning about budget cuts and understaffing .The situation wrt illegals in Arizona may be a little different from surrounding states. Laws passed before the famous SB 1070 law that brought Arizona so much national attention created real penalties for employers hiring the undocumented. Employers who were in a position to be penalized under these laws really did stop hiring illegals. This was mostly those with fixed locations that had no way to avoid surprise inspections. Many undocumented fled the state to greener pastures in other states. Many left their wives and children behind. with Section 8, SNAP, Medicaid and many other government programs contributing to their upkeep.

    As far as paying income taxes: The Earned Income Tax Credit has still not entered public and pundit consciousness despite more than 20 year since its creation under Clinton. The EITC results in tax refunds greater than taxes paid for those with low paying jobs and dependents. Through a complicated formula anyone filing a tax return with relatively low income and dependent children receives an income tax refund check totaling thousands more than contributed in taxes in the first place. The Democrats have gamed the system beautifully in that low income working people now look forward to tax season. Filing a tax return is equated with getting free money from the government. The free shit army rides again

    The EITC started under Ford.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/paul-abrams/reagan-the-redistributor_b_138428.html

  91. @whorefinder
    I consider the phrase "jobs that Americans won't do" to be fighting words.

    Because it says that Americans are too lazy and snooty and worthless to work menial jobs. Which is belied by say, all of history before NAFTA and amnesty and 1965 and even up to the 1990s.

    Which would include me, as an American.

    I have told people who say this that if they say that around me I will fight them. Literally fight them. For insulting me, my family, and my fellow Americans.

    They need to tell themselves that when they are hiring an illegal alien so they aren’t the scum they know deep down they are.

  92. @Capn Mike
    Good ol' Caesar Chavez and the UFW union. There used to be a guest worker "Bracero" program in Cal. Guys would come north to work the fields, make a modest but honest buck, then send or better BRING home their money to their families in Mexico, where the money went REALLY FAR.

    So,
    1. Workers had legal protection (no coyotes, gang pressure)
    2. No SS tax, income tax?
    3. No anchor babies

    Well, thanks to the UFW, that program was killed by Dems in Sac., workers went mostly illegal with all attending problems including welfare, anchor babies. The UFW workers should be citizen foremen, overseeing guest workers, enjoying better work conditions and higher pay, but instead are just overpaid pickers.
    Thanks, Caesar.

    Who cares about Mexican workers? If the government wanted them out of the country they would be out. FWIW, people on both sides of the border screwed the braceros when ever they could.

  93. Worried about the feminists ? Throw them on their backs and f**k the shit out of them , they’ll praise god and even better they’ll STFU . ????

  94. You deleted my racist but loving comment . How long before you have to take a side ? Take some action other than providing a forum for all the gas bags that post here . Stop squeezing your slack
    ass cheeks together and tell all your windbag fans to arm up and spill some blood , their blood that is I hope .

  95. @MarkinLA
    Who cares about Mexican workers? If the government wanted them out of the country they would be out. FWIW, people on both sides of the border screwed the braceros when ever they could.

    sure, still do and so?

    • Replies: @MarkinLA
    You seemed to be pining for a new bracero program. I just want all illegals out and screw the saintly farmer if he has to pay more for labor.
  96. @jtgw
    You probably should. This is the problem with protectionism: you focus on one particular group, say native-born construction workers, and then try to legislate to protect their jobs, but you end up costing everybody else, creating a net loss in prosperity.

    The point about saving costs to the public purse, however, is spot on. "Free" benefits, whether direct handouts or indirect benefits like public schooling, are obviously going to attract those more likely to take advantage of them, such as unskilled Mexicans.

    “This is the problem with protectionism: you focus on one particular group, say native-born construction workers, and then try to legislate to protect their jobs, but you end up costing everybody else, creating a net loss in prosperity.”

    A common misperception: https://goo.gl/ogyov5 (Read last paragraph for conclusion)

    The Walmart effect (lower prices) is not as big as the McDonald’s effect (lower wages). Economists should point this out more often, except that it is taboo in the field. Free Trade is PC.

    • Replies: @jtgw
    The link takes me to my Google drive page, so I don't know what you're referring to.

    I wouldn't say free trade is PC, though free movement of people seems to be. Of course, not everything that's PC is untrue, e.g. evolution (as applied to non-humans) is PC and Biblical creationism is un-PC, but the PC belief happens to be correct. I'd wager the same on climate change (though not on the belief that government intervention is the only solution). You shouldn't base your beliefs of what's true on what happens to be politically correct at the time.
    , @Stephen R. Diamond

    “This is the problem with protectionism: you focus on one particular group, say native-born construction workers, and then try to legislate to protect their jobs, but you end up costing everybody else, creating a net loss in prosperity.”
     
    Marx refuted this argument long ago in a Value, Price, and Profit.
  97. @FactsAreImportant

    The recession, of course, also hurt the state’s economy. Mr. Hanson, the immigration economist, said the economic downturn led many migrants to leave.
     
    Hmmmm.

    This suggests that immigration greatly exacerbated the severity of the housing bubble, both the inflation of the bubble and the bursting of the bubble.

    The housing market is very sensitive to small changes in population. New construction is only a small percentage of total housing (about 1% right now), so if a surge in immigration makes population grow 1% faster than it would otherwise, it can double new construction. The same thing happens in reverse if immigrants leave -- new construction can be severely reduced. So, immigrants entering and then leaving the country in large numbers can violently whipsaw the housing market.

    Note that natives don't do this to the housing market. In a recession, natives may change their spending habits, but the demand for housing doesn't change much because they still have to live somewhere -- they don't just go to another country leaving behind an empty house. So, native Americans don't produce these violent shifts in housing demand.

    “The housing market is very sensitive to small changes in population. New construction is only a small percentage of total housing (about 1% right now), so if a surge in immigration makes population grow 1% faster than it would otherwise, it can double new construction.”

    If people don’t understand who so many industries are so fanatically, almost violently, in favor of mass immigration, that explanation covers it pretty well. Without population growth the construction market is mostly limited to renovating and replacing old housing stock and shifts in population (net population movements from one region to another). Population growth (at least half of which is due to immigration) has an outsized impact on markets for homes, offices, and durable goods. Those tend to be “Republican” industries. That’s why the Republican donor class wants massive levels of immigration while Republican voters do not.

    It’s naive to assume that there aren’t positive economic benefits from mass immigration. It increases demand for services from a huge number of industries. Sending 12 million illegals home would take a pretty big hit on the economy – which is why we should have sent them all home when the economy tanked in 2008, and why we should never have let them in here at all, and why we definitely should never, never, ever have “guestworker” programs.

    The net economic effect of mass deportation will be the equivalent of drug withdrawal for a junkie. Whole industries have been built and overbuilt around the assumption of cheap and pliant stoop labor.

    There are a lot of reasons why mass deportation of illegals needs to happen but few (if any) are due to short-term economic considerations, which leaves us with a certain irony: the WSJ chose the one area that should have been most favorable to the open borders argument, and still found it wanting.

  98. It’s naive to assume that there aren’t positive economic benefits from mass immigration. It increases demand for services from a huge number of industries.

    Who’s paying for that demand, the tooth fairy?

    • Replies: @Wilkey
    "Who’s paying for that demand, the tooth fairy?"

    No, future citizens are.

    Note the first sentence of my last paragraph. I was referring to short-term economic growth. The long-term economic impact is more difficult to assess, because there are ways to keep delaying the day of reckoning, but I definitely believe the long-term economic impact of mass immigration - particularly the low-skilled kind - is negative.

    I'm just noting that you shouldn't assume the economy won't take a hit if you send several million workers (and consumers) back to where they belong. For the sake of our country I believe we need to do so anyway.
  99. @Desiderius

    It’s naive to assume that there aren’t positive economic benefits from mass immigration. It increases demand for services from a huge number of industries.
     
    Who's paying for that demand, the tooth fairy?

    “Who’s paying for that demand, the tooth fairy?”

    No, future citizens are.

    Note the first sentence of my last paragraph. I was referring to short-term economic growth. The long-term economic impact is more difficult to assess, because there are ways to keep delaying the day of reckoning, but I definitely believe the long-term economic impact of mass immigration – particularly the low-skilled kind – is negative.

    I’m just noting that you shouldn’t assume the economy won’t take a hit if you send several million workers (and consumers) back to where they belong. For the sake of our country I believe we need to do so anyway.

    • Replies: @Stephen R. Diamond
    So you reject the argument that migrants are an obvious economic drain because of the social services, medical care, and educational benefits they receive?
  100. @Wilkey
    "Who’s paying for that demand, the tooth fairy?"

    No, future citizens are.

    Note the first sentence of my last paragraph. I was referring to short-term economic growth. The long-term economic impact is more difficult to assess, because there are ways to keep delaying the day of reckoning, but I definitely believe the long-term economic impact of mass immigration - particularly the low-skilled kind - is negative.

    I'm just noting that you shouldn't assume the economy won't take a hit if you send several million workers (and consumers) back to where they belong. For the sake of our country I believe we need to do so anyway.

    So you reject the argument that migrants are an obvious economic drain because of the social services, medical care, and educational benefits they receive?

    • Replies: @Wilkey
    "So you reject the argument that migrants are an obvious economic drain because of the social services, medical care, and educational benefits they receive?"

    If you don't follow where I stand based on my posts here and on numerous prior threads on iSteve then I can't help you much, but I'll sum it up if I have to.

    There are some short-term economic benefits from mass migration. The private sector economy gets a boost, the public sector has extra expenses it finances with government debt to be paid off in the (hopefully) distant future. Many, many businesses have expanded based on the labor and demand provided by illegal immigrants. Those industries will take quite a hit of we deport those illegals. That doesn't mean we shouldn't deport them. We absolutely should. But it will come at a price.
  101. A huge question is: how much did immigration, current or recent, contribute to the Housing Bubble

    I saw The Big Short last weekend. I enjoyed it, but I was disappointed at the end when a false dichotomy was drawn between blaming bankers and blaming immigrants/poor people. Lewis & McKay seem not to have heard of the High-Low Squeeze.

    In your review you (rightly) mentioned the 4th wall-breaking explanatory parts being condescending. Maybe the condescension was deliberate to emphasize the arrogance of the banking industry?

    • Replies: @Ivy
    Breaking the fourth wall in The Big Short is a form of societal decadence.

    Subtlety, nuance and such are from a bygone era, before laugh tracks and then smart phones. These days, our media betters inform us that dog whistling is the only form of non-blunt instrument anti-virtue signaling that is to be recognized.
  102. @whorefinder
    I consider the phrase "jobs that Americans won't do" to be fighting words.

    Because it says that Americans are too lazy and snooty and worthless to work menial jobs. Which is belied by say, all of history before NAFTA and amnesty and 1965 and even up to the 1990s.

    Which would include me, as an American.

    I have told people who say this that if they say that around me I will fight them. Literally fight them. For insulting me, my family, and my fellow Americans.

    Since the black unemployment rate is significantly higher than that of whites, ask them if what they’re really saying is “jobs that African Americans won’t do”? And isn’t that racist? Aren’t they saying that blacks are lazy and shiftless and would rather sit around than work? Isn’t that the obvious implication? Break their balls about it.

    • Replies: @iSteveFan

    ask them if what they’re really saying is “jobs that African Americans won’t do”?
     
    Mexican President Fox said just that in 2005.

    You do bring up a good point. I've argued with guys about illegals taking jobs and sometimes people will say that "white boys don't wanna get up on a hot roof in the summer" or something like that. But in reality you are correct. Blacks have higher unemployment. But no one ever says that about blacks, except of course, Vincente Fox.
  103. @AlexT
    I had that argument with a Canadian communist the other day. He said that my argument was faulty because even restrictionist countries like Japan have poverty, hence immigrants aren't the problem. Some people actively refuse to learn.

    Yes indeed, we’re all familiar with the vast squalid slums that surround every city in Japan.

  104. @AlexT
    I had that argument with a Canadian communist the other day. He said that my argument was faulty because even restrictionist countries like Japan have poverty, hence immigrants aren't the problem. Some people actively refuse to learn.

    I heard a similar argument from an Australian libertarian. He visited Japan and noticed guys sleeping under bridges and concluded that Anglo economies were superior to East Asian ones. However, Japan (for better or worse) has a much more limited welfare system that most western countries, and some people do end up homeless. However, the overall unemployment rate is about half what it is in English-speaking countries.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    I once read that a certain % of skid row dwellers in Japan are "chocoholics" who spend every penny they get on chocolate. Never saw it confirmed, however.
    , @Anon87
    The homeless Japanese I saw almost seemed like quaint performance artists versus the subway shitters of Chicago or NYC.
  105. @unpc downunder
    I heard a similar argument from an Australian libertarian. He visited Japan and noticed guys sleeping under bridges and concluded that Anglo economies were superior to East Asian ones. However, Japan (for better or worse) has a much more limited welfare system that most western countries, and some people do end up homeless. However, the overall unemployment rate is about half what it is in English-speaking countries.

    I once read that a certain % of skid row dwellers in Japan are “chocoholics” who spend every penny they get on chocolate. Never saw it confirmed, however.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    I once read that a certain % of skid row dwellers in Japan are “chocoholics” who spend every penny they get on chocolate.
     
    Well, chocolate sits between liquor and cigarettes at the duty free shop for a reason.

    And other addictions will land you on skid row as well.
  106. @whorefinder
    I consider the phrase "jobs that Americans won't do" to be fighting words.

    Because it says that Americans are too lazy and snooty and worthless to work menial jobs. Which is belied by say, all of history before NAFTA and amnesty and 1965 and even up to the 1990s.

    Which would include me, as an American.

    I have told people who say this that if they say that around me I will fight them. Literally fight them. For insulting me, my family, and my fellow Americans.

    Note that they always say, “jobs Americans won’t do”, but they never finish that phrase with the following stipulation, “for that wage”. Yes, there are jobs Americans won’t do for that wage. But if you raise the wage you will eventually hit a point where someone will do it.

    In fact Americans will do most anything if the wage is right, from kinky acts to making fools of themselves on reality tv.

  107. @Harry Baldwin
    Since the black unemployment rate is significantly higher than that of whites, ask them if what they're really saying is "jobs that African Americans won’t do”? And isn't that racist? Aren't they saying that blacks are lazy and shiftless and would rather sit around than work? Isn't that the obvious implication? Break their balls about it.

    ask them if what they’re really saying is “jobs that African Americans won’t do”?

    Mexican President Fox said just that in 2005.

    You do bring up a good point. I’ve argued with guys about illegals taking jobs and sometimes people will say that “white boys don’t wanna get up on a hot roof in the summer” or something like that. But in reality you are correct. Blacks have higher unemployment. But no one ever says that about blacks, except of course, Vincente Fox.

  108. @Stephen R. Diamond
    So you reject the argument that migrants are an obvious economic drain because of the social services, medical care, and educational benefits they receive?

    “So you reject the argument that migrants are an obvious economic drain because of the social services, medical care, and educational benefits they receive?”

    If you don’t follow where I stand based on my posts here and on numerous prior threads on iSteve then I can’t help you much, but I’ll sum it up if I have to.

    There are some short-term economic benefits from mass migration. The private sector economy gets a boost, the public sector has extra expenses it finances with government debt to be paid off in the (hopefully) distant future. Many, many businesses have expanded based on the labor and demand provided by illegal immigrants. Those industries will take quite a hit of we deport those illegals. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t deport them. We absolutely should. But it will come at a price.

    • Replies: @Desiderius

    But it will come at a price.
     
    Broken windows fallacy.
    , @Stephen R. Diamond
    You answer like a Republican presidential candidate - repeating your lines. For the same reason: wanting to avoid divisions in your camp. My question was simple: do you reject the alternative theory many here offer?

    Although that theory is crude, the notion that mass migration inflicts net immediate harm seems more in accord with the data here presented. Per capita income increased - or do you interpret the data differently?
    , @Stephen R. Diamond

    Many, many businesses have expanded based on the labor and demand provided by illegal immigrants. Those industries will take quite a hit of we deport those illegals.
     
    Well, yes, industries will take a hit. If you drive down the price of labor, more is employed at greater profit. Increasing the price of labor hits industries. Nobody should expect that more will be produced with a smaller labor force - certainly not initially, but probably the difference will be greater in the future than in the present.

    The objective is the living standard of the masses, not the profits of the bosses. Even small bosses benefit from migration, the workers don't.
  109. @Steve Sailer
    I once read that a certain % of skid row dwellers in Japan are "chocoholics" who spend every penny they get on chocolate. Never saw it confirmed, however.

    I once read that a certain % of skid row dwellers in Japan are “chocoholics” who spend every penny they get on chocolate.

    Well, chocolate sits between liquor and cigarettes at the duty free shop for a reason.

    And other addictions will land you on skid row as well.

  110. @Wilkey
    "So you reject the argument that migrants are an obvious economic drain because of the social services, medical care, and educational benefits they receive?"

    If you don't follow where I stand based on my posts here and on numerous prior threads on iSteve then I can't help you much, but I'll sum it up if I have to.

    There are some short-term economic benefits from mass migration. The private sector economy gets a boost, the public sector has extra expenses it finances with government debt to be paid off in the (hopefully) distant future. Many, many businesses have expanded based on the labor and demand provided by illegal immigrants. Those industries will take quite a hit of we deport those illegals. That doesn't mean we shouldn't deport them. We absolutely should. But it will come at a price.

    But it will come at a price.

    Broken windows fallacy.

    • Agree: jtgw
    • Replies: @jtgw
    Exactly. Nationalists should really be framing the issue like this: we are willing to pay an economic price for social and cultural cohesiveness. But too many seem to think they can eat their cake and have it, too.
  111. @Rob McX
    This is America in microcosm if it halts immigration, and it doesn't just apply to manual workers. Think of all the tech workers being brought in from Asia, doing jobs Americans would do if there were more incentive. Already, no doubt, there are deep-pocketed lobbyists assuring every political candidate that this would be a disaster for the economy.

    This is America in microcosm if it halts immigration, and it doesn’t just apply to manual workers. Think of all the tech workers being brought in from Asia, doing jobs Americans would do if there were more incentive.

    Don’t forget about nurses and, presumably soon, doctors as in the UK.

    • Replies: @Rob McX
    The damage done in the UK by incompetent Third World "doctors" is incalculable. Letting them practise medicine is an act of criminal negligence on the part of those NHS bureaucrats who hire them. I suspect there's a lot of ethnic logrolling involved in the recruitment process, given the number of Asians and other non-whites at all levels in the health service.

    List of the "doctors" handed down verdicts by Fitness to Practise tribunals in the second half of January this year:

    27 January 2016 - (Shabbeer Qureshi)
    27 January 2016 - (Olumide Bassey Udom)
    26 January 2016 - (Ghazi Qureshi)
    22 January 2016 - (Michael Ross)
    21 January 2016 - (Sharaf Salem)
    21 January 2016 - (Usen Ikidde)
    21 January 2016 - (Jitinder Bakshi)
    19 January 2016 - (Khaled Yasin)
    19 January 2016 - (Anurag Sinha)
    15 January 2016 - (Elizabeth Obe)
    15 January 2016 - (Omar Charaf)
    14 January 2016 - (Haseeb Babar)

  112. @Luke Lea
    "This is the problem with protectionism: you focus on one particular group, say native-born construction workers, and then try to legislate to protect their jobs, but you end up costing everybody else, creating a net loss in prosperity."

    A common misperception: https://goo.gl/ogyov5 (Read last paragraph for conclusion)

    The Walmart effect (lower prices) is not as big as the McDonald's effect (lower wages). Economists should point this out more often, except that it is taboo in the field. Free Trade is PC.

    The link takes me to my Google drive page, so I don’t know what you’re referring to.

    I wouldn’t say free trade is PC, though free movement of people seems to be. Of course, not everything that’s PC is untrue, e.g. evolution (as applied to non-humans) is PC and Biblical creationism is un-PC, but the PC belief happens to be correct. I’d wager the same on climate change (though not on the belief that government intervention is the only solution). You shouldn’t base your beliefs of what’s true on what happens to be politically correct at the time.

  113. @Leftist conservative
    we can move forward on this immigration debate, reach the next level, only when the american working class understands that the media and the government views the "economy" from the perspective of Capital. And the american working class needs to understand that there is another "economy"--the economy of the working class.

    There are two separate economies:

    1) the economy of the corporations,of Capital. This is the one discussed endlessly by media and government. This is the economy that is benefited by mass immigration. The Establishment seeks to grow this economy via immigration.

    2) the economy of most american working class citizens. This is the economy of Labor. Citizen Labor. This economy is damaged by mass immigration.

    Capital Economy vs Labor Economy. These two economies need to be discussed separately.
    Until the american working class makes this realization and forces the media to see things from this perspective, we will not be able to move to the next level.

    With all due respect G-d, but You are wrong.
    Capital and Labor are different sides of the same coin. The one can’t exist without the other.

    Without Labor no (accumulated) Capital, without Capital (employed for profit) no Labor.

    • Replies: @Difference Maker
    Look at it this way: the rulers say that more money in their pocket = good for the country. I say that more money in my pocket is good for the country

    The rulers slaver after their money; I shall take their example as instructive, dutifully noted, and lust after mine
  114. @Mr. Anon
    NEOT (Net Entirely Off Topic):

    Mexicans now including the skeletal saint of death in their church rituals:

    Santa Muerte has growing following in Mexico

    Death cult worship doesn't stop at the Rio Grande.

    File it under "Vibrant".

    True.
    Iv’e said, and I’m sure I’m not the only one, that Brazil will never escape ‘third world’ as long as they embrace ‘carnival’.
    It’s a mental state.

  115. @Desiderius

    But it will come at a price.
     
    Broken windows fallacy.

    Exactly. Nationalists should really be framing the issue like this: we are willing to pay an economic price for social and cultural cohesiveness. But too many seem to think they can eat their cake and have it, too.

    • Replies: @MarkinLA
    The price will be paid by individuals and the benefits will accrue to the commons just the opposite of what happens with mass immigration. Do we really know that the price this collection of people pay is more than what the rest of us will save?

    For years the individuals who have reaped the benefits of mass immigration - big box stores, realtors, builders haven't given a damn about the people losing their jobs and having to take a big cut in their standard of living. They would simply be getting a dose of what they helped hand out.
  116. @Capn Mike
    sure, still do and so?

    You seemed to be pining for a new bracero program. I just want all illegals out and screw the saintly farmer if he has to pay more for labor.

  117. @Yngvar
    With all due respect G-d, but You are wrong.
    Capital and Labor are different sides of the same coin. The one can't exist without the other.

    Without Labor no (accumulated) Capital, without Capital (employed for profit) no Labor.

    Look at it this way: the rulers say that more money in their pocket = good for the country. I say that more money in my pocket is good for the country

    The rulers slaver after their money; I shall take their example as instructive, dutifully noted, and lust after mine

    • Replies: @Yngvar

    The rulers slaver after their money
     
    This isn't true. They wanted wealth, like everyone wants. Money is just a medium for exchange.
    How to create wealth have always been a prime concern for us who care about our children's future.
  118. @jtgw
    Exactly. Nationalists should really be framing the issue like this: we are willing to pay an economic price for social and cultural cohesiveness. But too many seem to think they can eat their cake and have it, too.

    The price will be paid by individuals and the benefits will accrue to the commons just the opposite of what happens with mass immigration. Do we really know that the price this collection of people pay is more than what the rest of us will save?

    For years the individuals who have reaped the benefits of mass immigration – big box stores, realtors, builders haven’t given a damn about the people losing their jobs and having to take a big cut in their standard of living. They would simply be getting a dose of what they helped hand out.

    • Replies: @jtgw
    Do you know the rest of us will lose? Steve has argued for a long time that high wages and consumption are the engine of growth and that the state should direct the economy in this direction by restricting the pool of labor, but this is fundamentally wrong economics. Production, not consumption, is the engine of growth, and production goes up when workers are allowed to go where they are most productive. High wages are the result of a productive economy, not vice versa; this is why wages kept going up in the late 19th century, even as the population boomed because of immigration.

    I'm NOT saying mass immigration is all hunky-dory; it is clearly in part the result of the distorting incentives of the welfare state. But it does no good to oppose it for the wrong reasons, such as faulty economic reasoning.
  119. @ben tillman

    This is America in microcosm if it halts immigration, and it doesn’t just apply to manual workers. Think of all the tech workers being brought in from Asia, doing jobs Americans would do if there were more incentive.
     
    Don't forget about nurses and, presumably soon, doctors as in the UK.

    The damage done in the UK by incompetent Third World “doctors” is incalculable. Letting them practise medicine is an act of criminal negligence on the part of those NHS bureaucrats who hire them. I suspect there’s a lot of ethnic logrolling involved in the recruitment process, given the number of Asians and other non-whites at all levels in the health service.

    List of the “doctors” handed down verdicts by Fitness to Practise tribunals in the second half of January this year:

    27 January 2016 – (Shabbeer Qureshi)
    27 January 2016 – (Olumide Bassey Udom)
    26 January 2016 – (Ghazi Qureshi)
    22 January 2016 – (Michael Ross)
    21 January 2016 – (Sharaf Salem)
    21 January 2016 – (Usen Ikidde)
    21 January 2016 – (Jitinder Bakshi)
    19 January 2016 – (Khaled Yasin)
    19 January 2016 – (Anurag Sinha)
    15 January 2016 – (Elizabeth Obe)
    15 January 2016 – (Omar Charaf)
    14 January 2016 – (Haseeb Babar)

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    The longer list makes it look even worse. But what exactly is the role of this MPTS? is it a patient advocacy, doctor union, or something else-type group? If a doctor makes the list what does that mean? I looked around on the site but it was so blancmange that I couldn't even determine if the list meant something bad.

    What's the ratio of native/immigrant doctors over there? It's pretty low here in CA, especially if you include 2nd generation immigrants. White people seem to have lost interest in becoming doctors. Lots of white guys going into nursing these days, though.
  120. @jesse helms think-alike
    The article starts out with some premises that are lies and then build an edifice of lies on top of that. There is no labor shortage in Arizona or most anywhere for that matter. Real unemployment is probably close to 5 times the fake reported national rate. No way to know for sure. The data have been massaged to give BHO the "Unemployment under 5%" headline that makes him look good, just like years of QE Infinity brought the Dow to record levels in the middle of a depression. Many among the employed are underemployed, working less than full time hours or working jobs paying less than previously. The only people living high on the hog are government employees, who have honed clock watching to an art while bitching and moaning about budget cuts and understaffing .The situation wrt illegals in Arizona may be a little different from surrounding states. Laws passed before the famous SB 1070 law that brought Arizona so much national attention created real penalties for employers hiring the undocumented. Employers who were in a position to be penalized under these laws really did stop hiring illegals. This was mostly those with fixed locations that had no way to avoid surprise inspections. Many undocumented fled the state to greener pastures in other states. Many left their wives and children behind. with Section 8, SNAP, Medicaid and many other government programs contributing to their upkeep.

    As far as paying income taxes: The Earned Income Tax Credit has still not entered public and pundit consciousness despite more than 20 year since its creation under Clinton. The EITC results in tax refunds greater than taxes paid for those with low paying jobs and dependents. Through a complicated formula anyone filing a tax return with relatively low income and dependent children receives an income tax refund check totaling thousands more than contributed in taxes in the first place. The Democrats have gamed the system beautifully in that low income working people now look forward to tax season. Filing a tax return is equated with getting free money from the government. The free shit army rides again

    This comment gives me the opportunity to link this ridiculous commercial, which is the equivalent to the “Rocket Mortgage” commercials level of “WTF!!1!”:

    “Come in and win $1k for doing your taxes! We’ll take a portion of your return, poor people!”

    Needless to say, we should all probably be long H&R Block…for now.

  121. @Wilkey
    "So you reject the argument that migrants are an obvious economic drain because of the social services, medical care, and educational benefits they receive?"

    If you don't follow where I stand based on my posts here and on numerous prior threads on iSteve then I can't help you much, but I'll sum it up if I have to.

    There are some short-term economic benefits from mass migration. The private sector economy gets a boost, the public sector has extra expenses it finances with government debt to be paid off in the (hopefully) distant future. Many, many businesses have expanded based on the labor and demand provided by illegal immigrants. Those industries will take quite a hit of we deport those illegals. That doesn't mean we shouldn't deport them. We absolutely should. But it will come at a price.

    You answer like a Republican presidential candidate – repeating your lines. For the same reason: wanting to avoid divisions in your camp. My question was simple: do you reject the alternative theory many here offer?

    Although that theory is crude, the notion that mass migration inflicts net immediate harm seems more in accord with the data here presented. Per capita income increased – or do you interpret the data differently?

    • Replies: @jtgw
    Rising wages in just one or two sectors of the labor market isn't really evidence of an overall economic benefit. Remember that, if employers have to pay higher wages, that cost goes into the product and gets passed on to the consumer, which often as not is a member of the same class that now enjoys a higher wage. If the worker now has to pay more for the product, what has he actually gained?

    That being said, the restrictionists are right about one thing: immigration is to a large extent state-, not market-driven. It's one thing to talk about the economic benefits of free migration in an ideal, libertarian society, another thing to talk about its effects in a world where many essential bills are covered by the taxpayer. It's quite possible that the socialized costs of immigration do outweigh the benefits, such that imposing a moratorium on immigration is the best policy as long as the rest of the welfare state can't be dismantled. But entitlement costs will not go away, and sooner or later the American voter will have to accept less welfare, regardless of the number of immigrants.
  122. @Stephen R. Diamond
    You answer like a Republican presidential candidate - repeating your lines. For the same reason: wanting to avoid divisions in your camp. My question was simple: do you reject the alternative theory many here offer?

    Although that theory is crude, the notion that mass migration inflicts net immediate harm seems more in accord with the data here presented. Per capita income increased - or do you interpret the data differently?

    Rising wages in just one or two sectors of the labor market isn’t really evidence of an overall economic benefit. Remember that, if employers have to pay higher wages, that cost goes into the product and gets passed on to the consumer, which often as not is a member of the same class that now enjoys a higher wage. If the worker now has to pay more for the product, what has he actually gained?

    That being said, the restrictionists are right about one thing: immigration is to a large extent state-, not market-driven. It’s one thing to talk about the economic benefits of free migration in an ideal, libertarian society, another thing to talk about its effects in a world where many essential bills are covered by the taxpayer. It’s quite possible that the socialized costs of immigration do outweigh the benefits, such that imposing a moratorium on immigration is the best policy as long as the rest of the welfare state can’t be dismantled. But entitlement costs will not go away, and sooner or later the American voter will have to accept less welfare, regardless of the number of immigrants.

  123. @ATX Hipster

    A huge question is: how much did immigration, current or recent, contribute to the Housing Bubble
     
    I saw The Big Short last weekend. I enjoyed it, but I was disappointed at the end when a false dichotomy was drawn between blaming bankers and blaming immigrants/poor people. Lewis & McKay seem not to have heard of the High-Low Squeeze.

    In your review you (rightly) mentioned the 4th wall-breaking explanatory parts being condescending. Maybe the condescension was deliberate to emphasize the arrogance of the banking industry?

    Breaking the fourth wall in The Big Short is a form of societal decadence.

    Subtlety, nuance and such are from a bygone era, before laugh tracks and then smart phones. These days, our media betters inform us that dog whistling is the only form of non-blunt instrument anti-virtue signaling that is to be recognized.

  124. @Ivy
    Breaking the fourth wall in The Big Short is a form of societal decadence.

    Subtlety, nuance and such are from a bygone era, before laugh tracks and then smart phones. These days, our media betters inform us that dog whistling is the only form of non-blunt instrument anti-virtue signaling that is to be recognized.

    And every pickup truck is in fact a dog whistle.

  125. This subject has me thinking – as our shifting demographics change our society from one of high trust to one of low trust, should we expect to see economic bubbles caused by fraudulent behavior more often?

    I’m pretty sure the average gringo has more misgivings about things like falsifying income on a loan application than a lot of our vibrant new friends. Considering how casual they are about things like marriage scams and breaking our laws to have anchor babies, lying to the bank seems like small potatoes.

    Wall Street has had its share of scandals even when the country was homogeneous, so it’ll be interesting to see how the markets are functioning by 2040. If people don’t trust financial institutions, will they hoard cash? It would be pretty ironic for the Invite the World policy to have the exact opposite effect of what we’ve been promised by all the Goodwhites. Can a credit economy function if nobody trusts each other?

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Washington Mutual's #1 outside mortgage agent during the Housing Bubble was a Spanish-speaking Hispanic guy in L.A. WaMu did a focus group in Los Angeles to find out what their new borrowers thought of the terms of their adjustable mortgages, but found out that virtually none of their mortgagees had any idea what their terms were.

    A SF Fed study of defaulted mortgages in Oakland and the Central Valley brought to mind the term "affinity scam:" virtually all the minority defaultees got their mortgages from mortgage agents of their own ethnicity, which meant a lot to them. Who exactly was scamming whom remains open to debate all these years later.

  126. @ATX Hipster
    This subject has me thinking - as our shifting demographics change our society from one of high trust to one of low trust, should we expect to see economic bubbles caused by fraudulent behavior more often?

    I'm pretty sure the average gringo has more misgivings about things like falsifying income on a loan application than a lot of our vibrant new friends. Considering how casual they are about things like marriage scams and breaking our laws to have anchor babies, lying to the bank seems like small potatoes.

    Wall Street has had its share of scandals even when the country was homogeneous, so it'll be interesting to see how the markets are functioning by 2040. If people don't trust financial institutions, will they hoard cash? It would be pretty ironic for the Invite the World policy to have the exact opposite effect of what we've been promised by all the Goodwhites. Can a credit economy function if nobody trusts each other?

    Washington Mutual’s #1 outside mortgage agent during the Housing Bubble was a Spanish-speaking Hispanic guy in L.A. WaMu did a focus group in Los Angeles to find out what their new borrowers thought of the terms of their adjustable mortgages, but found out that virtually none of their mortgagees had any idea what their terms were.

    A SF Fed study of defaulted mortgages in Oakland and the Central Valley brought to mind the term “affinity scam:” virtually all the minority defaultees got their mortgages from mortgage agents of their own ethnicity, which meant a lot to them. Who exactly was scamming whom remains open to debate all these years later.

  127. @MarkinLA
    The price will be paid by individuals and the benefits will accrue to the commons just the opposite of what happens with mass immigration. Do we really know that the price this collection of people pay is more than what the rest of us will save?

    For years the individuals who have reaped the benefits of mass immigration - big box stores, realtors, builders haven't given a damn about the people losing their jobs and having to take a big cut in their standard of living. They would simply be getting a dose of what they helped hand out.

    Do you know the rest of us will lose? Steve has argued for a long time that high wages and consumption are the engine of growth and that the state should direct the economy in this direction by restricting the pool of labor, but this is fundamentally wrong economics. Production, not consumption, is the engine of growth, and production goes up when workers are allowed to go where they are most productive. High wages are the result of a productive economy, not vice versa; this is why wages kept going up in the late 19th century, even as the population boomed because of immigration.

    I’m NOT saying mass immigration is all hunky-dory; it is clearly in part the result of the distorting incentives of the welfare state. But it does no good to oppose it for the wrong reasons, such as faulty economic reasoning.

    • Replies: @MarkinLA
    Do you know the rest of us will lose?

    I won't therefore your argument is false.


    First of all, do you know that economics is a religion and not a science so all your "do you knows" are nothing but your opinion. Libertarians make the same mistake economists do, as you do, you think you have cornered the market on the truth and it never crosses you mind that you are just repeating somebodies opinion.

    , @Stephen R. Diamond
    Of course, in the long term high profits produce high growth. If the capitalists can drive down wages, they can increase the opportunities where investment is profitable.

    So, if your criterion is "growth," you should favor all measures that drive down wages. You just have specific "cultural" objections to migration, but you would otherwise use Trumpian authoritiarinsm to break unions and establish right-to-work laws.

    Your basic motives for opposing mass migration are opposite to the motives of ordinary people. Not a nuance: you're on the other side.
  128. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @Rob McX
    The damage done in the UK by incompetent Third World "doctors" is incalculable. Letting them practise medicine is an act of criminal negligence on the part of those NHS bureaucrats who hire them. I suspect there's a lot of ethnic logrolling involved in the recruitment process, given the number of Asians and other non-whites at all levels in the health service.

    List of the "doctors" handed down verdicts by Fitness to Practise tribunals in the second half of January this year:

    27 January 2016 - (Shabbeer Qureshi)
    27 January 2016 - (Olumide Bassey Udom)
    26 January 2016 - (Ghazi Qureshi)
    22 January 2016 - (Michael Ross)
    21 January 2016 - (Sharaf Salem)
    21 January 2016 - (Usen Ikidde)
    21 January 2016 - (Jitinder Bakshi)
    19 January 2016 - (Khaled Yasin)
    19 January 2016 - (Anurag Sinha)
    15 January 2016 - (Elizabeth Obe)
    15 January 2016 - (Omar Charaf)
    14 January 2016 - (Haseeb Babar)

    The longer list makes it look even worse. But what exactly is the role of this MPTS? is it a patient advocacy, doctor union, or something else-type group? If a doctor makes the list what does that mean? I looked around on the site but it was so blancmange that I couldn’t even determine if the list meant something bad.

    What’s the ratio of native/immigrant doctors over there? It’s pretty low here in CA, especially if you include 2nd generation immigrants. White people seem to have lost interest in becoming doctors. Lots of white guys going into nursing these days, though.

    • Replies: @Rob McX
    The Medical Practitioners Tribunal Service is the government body that decides if a doctor is fit to practise medicine. It holds an independent tribunal where a sufficiently serious complaint is made against a doctor, and has the power to strike him off the UK register so that he can't practise there again.

    Just over a quarter of all doctors in Britain are foreign born, but I'd say the proportion of non-white doctors is much higher if you count British born ones of Asian or African origin.

    I'm not sure if this is a problem in the UK, but in Ireland one thing that contributes to the shortage of native born doctors is that many of the university places are taken by women who train in medicine and then drop out of the profession after a few years.
  129. @jtgw
    Do you know the rest of us will lose? Steve has argued for a long time that high wages and consumption are the engine of growth and that the state should direct the economy in this direction by restricting the pool of labor, but this is fundamentally wrong economics. Production, not consumption, is the engine of growth, and production goes up when workers are allowed to go where they are most productive. High wages are the result of a productive economy, not vice versa; this is why wages kept going up in the late 19th century, even as the population boomed because of immigration.

    I'm NOT saying mass immigration is all hunky-dory; it is clearly in part the result of the distorting incentives of the welfare state. But it does no good to oppose it for the wrong reasons, such as faulty economic reasoning.

    Do you know the rest of us will lose?

    I won’t therefore your argument is false.

    First of all, do you know that economics is a religion and not a science so all your “do you knows” are nothing but your opinion. Libertarians make the same mistake economists do, as you do, you think you have cornered the market on the truth and it never crosses you mind that you are just repeating somebodies opinion.

  130. @Anonymous
    The longer list makes it look even worse. But what exactly is the role of this MPTS? is it a patient advocacy, doctor union, or something else-type group? If a doctor makes the list what does that mean? I looked around on the site but it was so blancmange that I couldn't even determine if the list meant something bad.

    What's the ratio of native/immigrant doctors over there? It's pretty low here in CA, especially if you include 2nd generation immigrants. White people seem to have lost interest in becoming doctors. Lots of white guys going into nursing these days, though.

    The Medical Practitioners Tribunal Service is the government body that decides if a doctor is fit to practise medicine. It holds an independent tribunal where a sufficiently serious complaint is made against a doctor, and has the power to strike him off the UK register so that he can’t practise there again.

    Just over a quarter of all doctors in Britain are foreign born, but I’d say the proportion of non-white doctors is much higher if you count British born ones of Asian or African origin.

    I’m not sure if this is a problem in the UK, but in Ireland one thing that contributes to the shortage of native born doctors is that many of the university places are taken by women who train in medicine and then drop out of the profession after a few years.

    • Replies: @Nibbler
    All doctors in Britain must work for the NHS. Any private work is in addition to their NHS duties. The resulting low pay and lack of professional freedom (e.g. to choose where you work and what patients you see) made it a low prestige profession even before the influx of foreign doctors. Given the popularity of the NHS I don't see this situation changing any time soon.
    , @Formerly CARealist
    Hmm, I wonder if, after getting banned in your country, they emigrate to the US and start the process all over again.

    I've been to doctors here so fresh off the boat that we could barely communicate. Fortunately they didn't last.

    As to the women dropping out of the medical profession, that seems rather incredible. All that training, time, debt and then they just move on? I mean, yeah, they take a break for kids or whatever, but just giving up after all that work seems weird. Most women who want part-time medical work are nurses, and that's a much easier school/training track. I have nieces doing just that.
  131. @Rob McX
    The Medical Practitioners Tribunal Service is the government body that decides if a doctor is fit to practise medicine. It holds an independent tribunal where a sufficiently serious complaint is made against a doctor, and has the power to strike him off the UK register so that he can't practise there again.

    Just over a quarter of all doctors in Britain are foreign born, but I'd say the proportion of non-white doctors is much higher if you count British born ones of Asian or African origin.

    I'm not sure if this is a problem in the UK, but in Ireland one thing that contributes to the shortage of native born doctors is that many of the university places are taken by women who train in medicine and then drop out of the profession after a few years.

    All doctors in Britain must work for the NHS. Any private work is in addition to their NHS duties. The resulting low pay and lack of professional freedom (e.g. to choose where you work and what patients you see) made it a low prestige profession even before the influx of foreign doctors. Given the popularity of the NHS I don’t see this situation changing any time soon.

  132. @Difference Maker
    Look at it this way: the rulers say that more money in their pocket = good for the country. I say that more money in my pocket is good for the country

    The rulers slaver after their money; I shall take their example as instructive, dutifully noted, and lust after mine

    The rulers slaver after their money

    This isn’t true. They wanted wealth, like everyone wants. Money is just a medium for exchange.
    How to create wealth have always been a prime concern for us who care about our children’s future.

  133. @William BadWhite
    "WSJ is usually fair and balanced so I like to read it. "

    Not on the topic of immigration. I cancelled my subscription about 3 years ago because if I had to read one more editorial about how MORE IMMIGRATION is the answer to everything (well, immigration and war with Iran) my head was going to explode.

    The clincher was a guest editorial by the CEO of Chipotle (before they were busy poisoning people) not just making a case for why Chipotle ("what's good for Chipotle is good for America"?) needed "access" to scores of workers, but he was angry and indignant about it.

    Yes, which is why I’m delighting in their current travails.

  134. @Rob McX
    The Medical Practitioners Tribunal Service is the government body that decides if a doctor is fit to practise medicine. It holds an independent tribunal where a sufficiently serious complaint is made against a doctor, and has the power to strike him off the UK register so that he can't practise there again.

    Just over a quarter of all doctors in Britain are foreign born, but I'd say the proportion of non-white doctors is much higher if you count British born ones of Asian or African origin.

    I'm not sure if this is a problem in the UK, but in Ireland one thing that contributes to the shortage of native born doctors is that many of the university places are taken by women who train in medicine and then drop out of the profession after a few years.

    Hmm, I wonder if, after getting banned in your country, they emigrate to the US and start the process all over again.

    I’ve been to doctors here so fresh off the boat that we could barely communicate. Fortunately they didn’t last.

    As to the women dropping out of the medical profession, that seems rather incredible. All that training, time, debt and then they just move on? I mean, yeah, they take a break for kids or whatever, but just giving up after all that work seems weird. Most women who want part-time medical work are nurses, and that’s a much easier school/training track. I have nieces doing just that.

  135. @Luke Lea
    "This is the problem with protectionism: you focus on one particular group, say native-born construction workers, and then try to legislate to protect their jobs, but you end up costing everybody else, creating a net loss in prosperity."

    A common misperception: https://goo.gl/ogyov5 (Read last paragraph for conclusion)

    The Walmart effect (lower prices) is not as big as the McDonald's effect (lower wages). Economists should point this out more often, except that it is taboo in the field. Free Trade is PC.

    “This is the problem with protectionism: you focus on one particular group, say native-born construction workers, and then try to legislate to protect their jobs, but you end up costing everybody else, creating a net loss in prosperity.”

    Marx refuted this argument long ago in a Value, Price, and Profit.

  136. What’s missing from Steve Sailor’s analysis is what effects we should expect from the “loss” of migrant labor.

    “We used to have many migrant families. They aren’t coming back,” says Mr. Knorr, who owns RK Farms LLC, an hour’s drive from Phoenix.” What the right misses is that we should expect (and hope for) profits to decline with the rise of wages.

  137. “Is it really all that terrible that Americans with no academic skills can now scrape out a living by the sweat of their brows?”

    Considering that they typical American family measures most of its net worth in its real estate investment, probably not. Just a guess…..

  138. @Wilkey
    "So you reject the argument that migrants are an obvious economic drain because of the social services, medical care, and educational benefits they receive?"

    If you don't follow where I stand based on my posts here and on numerous prior threads on iSteve then I can't help you much, but I'll sum it up if I have to.

    There are some short-term economic benefits from mass migration. The private sector economy gets a boost, the public sector has extra expenses it finances with government debt to be paid off in the (hopefully) distant future. Many, many businesses have expanded based on the labor and demand provided by illegal immigrants. Those industries will take quite a hit of we deport those illegals. That doesn't mean we shouldn't deport them. We absolutely should. But it will come at a price.

    Many, many businesses have expanded based on the labor and demand provided by illegal immigrants. Those industries will take quite a hit of we deport those illegals.

    Well, yes, industries will take a hit. If you drive down the price of labor, more is employed at greater profit. Increasing the price of labor hits industries. Nobody should expect that more will be produced with a smaller labor force – certainly not initially, but probably the difference will be greater in the future than in the present.

    The objective is the living standard of the masses, not the profits of the bosses. Even small bosses benefit from migration, the workers don’t.

  139. @jtgw
    Do you know the rest of us will lose? Steve has argued for a long time that high wages and consumption are the engine of growth and that the state should direct the economy in this direction by restricting the pool of labor, but this is fundamentally wrong economics. Production, not consumption, is the engine of growth, and production goes up when workers are allowed to go where they are most productive. High wages are the result of a productive economy, not vice versa; this is why wages kept going up in the late 19th century, even as the population boomed because of immigration.

    I'm NOT saying mass immigration is all hunky-dory; it is clearly in part the result of the distorting incentives of the welfare state. But it does no good to oppose it for the wrong reasons, such as faulty economic reasoning.

    Of course, in the long term high profits produce high growth. If the capitalists can drive down wages, they can increase the opportunities where investment is profitable.

    So, if your criterion is “growth,” you should favor all measures that drive down wages. You just have specific “cultural” objections to migration, but you would otherwise use Trumpian authoritiarinsm to break unions and establish right-to-work laws.

    Your basic motives for opposing mass migration are opposite to the motives of ordinary people. Not a nuance: you’re on the other side.

  140. @unpc downunder
    I heard a similar argument from an Australian libertarian. He visited Japan and noticed guys sleeping under bridges and concluded that Anglo economies were superior to East Asian ones. However, Japan (for better or worse) has a much more limited welfare system that most western countries, and some people do end up homeless. However, the overall unemployment rate is about half what it is in English-speaking countries.

    The homeless Japanese I saw almost seemed like quaint performance artists versus the subway shitters of Chicago or NYC.

Comments are closed.

PastClassics
The “war hero” candidate buried information about POWs left behind in Vietnam.
The unprecedented racial transformation of California and its political consequences.