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Wouldn't It be More Moral for America to Brain-Drain Norway More and Haiti Less?
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Here is a graph of countries with ratios of high skilled emigrants to total emigrants created by somebody calling himself Jonatan P from German Institute for Employment Research data. Haiti is third from the top behind Barbados and Antigua.

This helps explain why Haitian diaspora communities have a fairly decent reputation while Haiti itself is remarkably backward.

I’m not sure if I would consider this a measure of Brain Drain per se in absolute terms, since that would also depend upon the size of the outflow. For example, I’ve heard that Guyana in northern South America might be the hardest hit by brain drain to America simply because such a huge fraction of Guyanese have moved to America.

I’d prefer to see a graph of emigration by high skilled emigrants as a percentage of total high skilled population in the country. I’m sure Haiti would rank high on that list as well. It would seem like the morally appropriate thing for American immigration policy to do would be to focus on importing fewer high skilled Haitians and more high skilled Norwegians. With Norway number one on the UN’s Human Development Index, the Norwegians can certainly afford to lose more of their skilled people to immigration to America than the Haitians can afford.

Another idea:

And Spotted Toad recently looked into this question, citing the shrinking city of East St. Louis, Illinois (which, I believe, has the lowest test score school district in the country) as a municipal example of brain drain.

 
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  1. Another approach that would get a similar result: have balanced migration.

    The Richmans (three generations of economists) have been advocating balanced trade for years, but the same principal of reciprocity would work well in migration. Let the number of immigrants we take from a country be equal to the number of Americans who moved to that country last year. That will automatically get us more immigrants from developed countries, and fewer from backward ones. And it will give developed countries such as Japan an incentive to welcome more American expats, and give backward countries like Haiti an incentive to make some enclaves at least attractive to first worlders.

  2. It’d be more moral, sure, but that’s not really the concern of the United States government. Rather, America’s priority should be to screw foreign governments before foreign governments screw us. We have our interests, and no one else is going to look out for them.

    We should attract the Iranian physicist who’d otherwise be working on the bomb program in his native country or that Russian computer genius who is interested in making a crypto startup who’d otherwise be working as a hacker for criminal groups back in Russia or that Chinese biotech startup founder who’d otherwise be working for the BGI out in Shenzhen. But the 10 millionth H2B web dev coolie or half-literate campensino illegal who makes another greedy employer more fat with cash? Hell no. America has 350 million people. We have plenty of coders, never mind underemployed teenagers and working class citizens. So, if some spoiled-rotten CEO or employer has to fork out a fair wage to get an American for day-to-day jobs, boo-hoo for him. Hopefully, Trump sees that undermining societal stability isn’t worth gaining the admiration of the Norquist crowd, unlike Republicans before him.

    Automation is coming. We will have less jobs in the future, not more. Thus, Japan, South Korea, Singapore, Australia, et all are handling their migration policies as a rule much wiser than Western Europe is, on that and on so many other grounds.

    • Replies: @jJay

    Automation is coming. We will have less jobs in the future, not more.
     
    nebulafox:

    This is had become meme that doesn't hold up well to scrutiny. Yes, in the future, robots will do most of our work. What's your timeframe here? We have the electronics and software capability to build the robot's brain but not the devil-in-the-details mechanical expertise to do it.

    If you old enough to remember The Jetsons cartoon show it was filled with wonderful automation gadgets. This show came out in the 1960 during the space race. Apollo 11 was a mechanical engineering masterpiece, the primitive computers were critical to mission's success, but not the star of the show.

    There are still no practical flying cars and living in space is still sci-fi. Instead, all the smart kids gravitated to electronics, computer science, telecommunications, and more recently, genetics. Mechanical engineering and materials science are not sexy fields of study.

    The Japanese and Koreans are pressing forward on the mechanical side of technology and ahead of us by a decade or so. But still, it's a very slow process. It may not be amenable to quantum leaps forward like electronics and the like have seen. Your great grandchildren will have fully functional robot servants, your children and grandchildren, not so likely.

    /wetblanket
    , @rogue-one
    > Rather, America’s priority should be to screw foreign governments before foreign governments screw us.

    If America imports all capable people from a country say Brazil or India, these countries will quickly turn into shitholes sending hordes of migrants everywhere.

    Prudence & enlightened self-interest dictates ensuring policies that help America while also improving the conditions in other countries.
  3. Immigration isn’t about importing the world’s smartest and highest-skilled people, and it’s not about morality. It’s about greedy capitalists exploiting cheap Third World labor, and greedy Third World immigrants gaming the system to exploit welfare-state benefits in developed nations.

    Unless you advocate global communism and global equality, this is obviously unsustainable… but it looks like that’s where we’re heading.

  4. There are two ways in which immigration ensures racial inequality, even if you assume races are equally intelligent to begin with.

    The first is through brain drain. Even if all populations began equally intelligent, if some countries have 60% of their smartest people leaving while others have none, the result will be a lowering of those countries average IQ over time. Even if Haiti began with the same IQ as Norway, generations of brain drain have ensured that it no longer does.

    The second inequality will happen in the countries that receive immigrants. Some of those immigrant groups will be drawn from their home countries elites, other groups mostly from their lower classes.

    For instance, 76 percent of Indian immigrants had a bachelor’s degree or higher. Compared to only 13 percent of Mexican immigrants.

    Even if native Indians and Mexicans had the same average IQ, these different immigration patterns mean Indian-Americans will have higher IQs than Mexican-Americans.

    This seems like the simplest, most irrefutable argument for at least some racial IQ differences in America.

    Why is this line of argument strong?

    – It doesn’t require arguing about IQ differences in the native populations, it only requires different education profiles among immigrants. It assumes that IQ is correlated with college degrees, which is a very defensible.

    – Immigrants come from dozens of different countries. If even one immigrant group is either above or below average, we have proven our position.

    – It proves that immigration leads to greater inequality, which makes it harder for liberals to defend.

  5. I like the other idea. We can waive the current exit-tax on Americans who voluntarily expatriate, i.e. give up the US passport, and move to low-capital countries, and even give them an extra million dollars to go to their brave new world and teach them the joys of social justice and liberty for all. The NPV would undoubtedly be positive, given the damage the open borders crowd have done to the wealth of all Americans.

  6. Few if any Norwegians would look to emigrate to the US. They have an oil-rich country, virtually free healthcare, get 5 weeks of vacation, generous parental leave when the wife gives birth and the working day is 730 to 330. What normal person would trade that to come to America? The fear of being forced into bankruptcy by medical bills is a major disincentive for those in developed countries to move to the US permanently. It only really makes sense to go if you will be a very high earner and then you are probably earning enough already in Paris, Barcelona, Stockholm etc. to be comfortable enough that additional material rewards won’t really tempt you and being away from your family and friends is a wrench you do not need to take. So the incentives to move only really suit the ambitious looking to leave undeveloped countries.

    It is not true to assume brainy emigrants in a Third World country hurt it by leaving. I lived in one for ten years, most of that talent simply gets wasted dealing with an environment of minimal opportunity, graft, nepotism and cultural stupidity. In a developed country they get to develop their skills, their networks and help the old country out far more by sending remittances (like the Filipino diaspora) than by wasting away in an unproductive role. There is always enough talent back home that can service the need for skilled employment if the ruling powers ever decide to make the country liveable for anyone but themselves.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Potential immigrants from Norway would typically be those with very high potential incomes (and tax payments) who find Norway too small of a pond for their sizable talents.
    , @Dave Pinsen

    In a developed country they get to develop their skills, their networks and help the old country out far more by sending remittances (like the Filipino diaspora) than by wasting away in an unproductive role.
     
    In reality, remittances often do more harm than good. From a WSJ article Steve posted about a few years back:

    Where I work in Guatemala, remittances have inflated the price of land to astounding levels; most families are unable to buy property unless they can place at least one wage-earner in the U.S. So every family is under pressure to send someone north. Migrants must borrow at least $5,000 to pay human smugglers. Many pay 10% monthly interest and put up family land as collateral. So they’re betting the farm. When something goes wrong, they lose it.
     
    That same writer, IIRC, also noted that remittances promote idleness and crime in receiving countries. The Philippines has a huge drug problem. I wouldn't be surprised if remittances played a role in it.

    In short, remittances don't appear to be a path upward for poor countries. Poor countries that become rich usually do so by cultivating successful local businesses that can scale.
    , @istevefan

    It is not true to assume brainy emigrants in a Third World country hurt it by leaving. I lived in one for ten years, most of that talent simply gets wasted dealing with an environment of minimal opportunity, graft, nepotism and cultural stupidity.
     
    If everyone with talent leaves, the situation will never get fixed. And for perpetuity we will forever be dealing with developing nations that never develop.

    Additionally by taking away the most capable up-and-comers, the Western nations remove all social pressure on the ruling elite to change their countries. I imagine the ruling elite like it that their most capable potential competitors leave. No the best course of action is to focus on developing those nations. We can assist them by allowing people to attend our universities and such, but they do need to go back and help develop their own nations. The world can't remain peaceful if the lion's share of the population is confined to developing nations that will never develop.
    , @RadicalCenter
    Oh I think the actual remaining white Norwegians will be looking desperately to get out of their country within a generation, the way it’s going.

    http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2016/01/police_in_oslo_norway_proclaim_oslo_is_lost.html

    “Wow, our great socialized medical system covered my care for my second beatdown by the Muslims down the street. Who would ever leave Norway!”
    , @Return of Shawn
    Norway is a pretty cold and often dark place; reason enough to leave...
    , @The Alarmist

    "Few if any Norwegians would look to emigrate to the US. They have an oil-rich country, virtually free healthcare, get 5 weeks of vacation, generous parental leave when the wife gives birth and the working day is 730 to 330. What normal person would trade that to come to America?"
     
    That's the point dude; we get the motivated ones, not the benefits leeches.
  7. Anon • Disclaimer says:

    Immigration should be like NFL drafts.

    Weakest teams get first picks and best teams have to wait. Only way to level the playing field. If the winning team gets to draft the best players, it will win forever.

    So, a new global agreement on immigration. Instead of immigrants getting to choose the destination, the weakest and poorest nations get to choose first. So, if Chinese and Indians want to emigrate, Haiti and Africa get first picks. If Chinese and Indians wanna go there, fine. If they don’t, they have to stay home. They can’t go to Canada or US.

  8. @Ali Choudhury
    Few if any Norwegians would look to emigrate to the US. They have an oil-rich country, virtually free healthcare, get 5 weeks of vacation, generous parental leave when the wife gives birth and the working day is 730 to 330. What normal person would trade that to come to America? The fear of being forced into bankruptcy by medical bills is a major disincentive for those in developed countries to move to the US permanently. It only really makes sense to go if you will be a very high earner and then you are probably earning enough already in Paris, Barcelona, Stockholm etc. to be comfortable enough that additional material rewards won't really tempt you and being away from your family and friends is a wrench you do not need to take. So the incentives to move only really suit the ambitious looking to leave undeveloped countries.

    It is not true to assume brainy emigrants in a Third World country hurt it by leaving. I lived in one for ten years, most of that talent simply gets wasted dealing with an environment of minimal opportunity, graft, nepotism and cultural stupidity. In a developed country they get to develop their skills, their networks and help the old country out far more by sending remittances (like the Filipino diaspora) than by wasting away in an unproductive role. There is always enough talent back home that can service the need for skilled employment if the ruling powers ever decide to make the country liveable for anyone but themselves.

    Potential immigrants from Norway would typically be those with very high potential incomes (and tax payments) who find Norway too small of a pond for their sizable talents.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    I did indeed know Finnish who expressed interest in moving to the United States specifically because the NE business environment is generally not all that friendly to entrepreneurship; that said, from what I've known, they usually end up setting up shop in Europe and take advantage of the EU free travel zone, and sometimes specifically do so in a way to maximize their benefits: for example, by setting up shop in Estonia while allows them to take advantage of the reduced cost and wage structure while "living" in Finland and taking advantage of the social services.

    Like tax shelters and elite rainmakers in general, most of what they do is fully legal if not completely ethical.
    , @George
    I don't think there is any point in discussing Norway as a small population plus low birthrate means you could more or less allow any number of them in.

    Oh wait.

    Pakistani Gang War(Norway)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1K9RIG4JoYk

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegians_with_Pakistani_background
    , @Ali Choudhury
    They can move to London very easily if they want a bigger, world-class pond to play in that is a 2 hour plane ride from home. Trying to get to the US legally is a bureaucratic drudge. It took Linus Torvalds forever to move to the US and he created Linux!

    See his Congressional testimony on the pain that came with dealing with the INS.

    http://www.techlawjournal.com/employ/20000225tor.htm


    I came to the US just over three years ago on a H-1B visa. An H-1B, of course, is the most common visa for my kind of skilled workforce interested in working in the US.

    Getting the visa was not a huge problem: the company I work for has done the paperwork before, and as my application was at the beginning of the visa year and I come from Western Europe there were no huge lines or visa caps that would have been a problem.

    Coming here, we didn't know what to expect - whether we'd actually like living in the US or not. Having been here three years I can definitely say that we've liked it a lot, and we feel this is home. But it cannot really be home as long as we might be kicked out at any time.

    And that is where the INS experience has broken down. In order to actually be a permanent resident, and what makes you start appreciating the pure bureaucracy of the whole INS experience, you can't just apply for a green card. You start out applying for permission to apply. Once you have petitioned (and been allowed) to actually work here as an immigrant rather than as a temporary worker, you can then actually move on to the exalted status of waiting for your green card application (I-485) to be accepted .... which can take a long time. The official INS notion of action papers said that the I-485 phase is supposed to take half a year. It's been a year and a half now, and the INS hasn't informed me of my status. In the meantime, whenever we want to travel to meet friends and family in Finland, we need to make sure that we have extra travel documents so that we can actually come back to where we live and work.

    Why is this bureaucracy in place? Why does it take nine months to get a drivers license in California if you're out-of-country and the INS has to verify that you're here legally? Why are people left pending, their whole lives on hold while papers get shuffled for years without end?

    In short, the current INS system doesn't work even for the people who have everything going for them. I can only say that I'm happy I'm considered a sure case, because based on my experience with the INS I'd really hate to be in a category that is considered problematic.
     
  9. Anon • Disclaimer says:

    Every poor African nation should build a statue of a woman holding a torch and put up a plaque with words, “Give us your rich, industrious, innovative, productive, ingenious so they can invest in our nation and build infrastructure and stuff so that we can live much better.”

    And all the Progressive Western types can go there to enjoy the Diversity and use their energies toward making lives better for ALL Africans. If the US just takes in African elites, they do well in the US but Africans left behind do worse.

    • Agree: Maj. Kong, rogue-one
    • Replies: @Harry Baldwin
    Every poor African nation should build a statue of a woman holding a torch and put up a plaque with words...

    Excellent idea, but remember, it has to be a poem. Poetry has a magical effect on the Jim Acostas of the world.
    , @The Alarmist

    "Every poor African nation should build a statue of a woman holding a torch and put up a plaque with words, 'Give us your rich, industrious, innovative, productive, ingenious so they can invest in our nation and build infrastructure and stuff so that we can live much better.'"
     
    There's a seed of a MAGA idea there. Trump should commission some enterprising entrepreneur to build replicas of the Statue of Liberty, and the the USA can gift those to these nations as its last act of foreign aid. Find some way to work, "There's no place like home" onto that plaque.
  10. Modern day lefties don’t seem to believe in brain drain like older liberals did. They either think the remaining populations will be smart enough (you racist!) or the new Americanized immigrants will one day better their birth countries.

  11. The numbers in that graph seem implausible in many cases, especially Somalia’s. 40% of Somali emigrants are “high skilled”?? High skilled at what? Maybe at misrepresenting themselves.

    • Replies: @Bill B.

    The numbers in that graph seem implausible in many cases, especially Somalia’s. 40% of Somali emigrants are “high skilled”?
     
    Agreed. I spend most of my time in Southeast Asia - that produces infinitely more skilled people than Somalia - yet headhunters describe the average degree certificate here as equivalent to a school leaving certificate in Scandinavia.

    (This is not true across the board because most countries manage to ring-fence certain technical subjects and clearly a place like Singapore is superior.)

    Note also that the British medical authorities have admitted that most foreign trained doctors would fail British medical exams. There are many other examples.
  12. Conspicuously absent from this chart are the big countries. You know, China, India, Russia, Indonesia, Brazil, etc.

    The chart appears that it was almost deliberately created to be far less useful than it could be.

  13. Why are they so upset at a reduction of immigration from Haiti? You very rarely see a successful Haitian restaurant. Now Jamaica, if you cut off immigration from Jamaica that would be a culinary tragedy. T-N-T too, we definitely need immigration from Trinidad and Tobago.

  14. @Steve Sailer
    Potential immigrants from Norway would typically be those with very high potential incomes (and tax payments) who find Norway too small of a pond for their sizable talents.

    I did indeed know Finnish who expressed interest in moving to the United States specifically because the NE business environment is generally not all that friendly to entrepreneurship; that said, from what I’ve known, they usually end up setting up shop in Europe and take advantage of the EU free travel zone, and sometimes specifically do so in a way to maximize their benefits: for example, by setting up shop in Estonia while allows them to take advantage of the reduced cost and wage structure while “living” in Finland and taking advantage of the social services.

    Like tax shelters and elite rainmakers in general, most of what they do is fully legal if not completely ethical.

    • Replies: @Moses

    I did indeed know Finnish who expressed interest in moving to the United States specifically because the NE business environment is generally not all that friendly to entrepreneurship;
     
    Silicon Valley is packed with talented European expats who fled the over-regulated nanny states of their home countries. When I worked there I knew Swiss, German, French, even Greeks. Not uncommon at all.
  15. If we’re getting the good Haitians, I’d hate to see anywhere the bad ones live.
    I have actually been to Haiti, but not since the 90’s. It was an absolute shithole then, I can only imagine what it is like today.
    I recently relocated my mother from her old neighborhood in South Florida (Lantana), which has been totally overrun by Haitians. Crime is rampant, but their most bothersome characteristic is that they really do everything they can to purposely terrorize old white people. They walk down the center of the street as if they own it, (available sidewalks on both sides), plastic bag balanced on head, and if you try to drive around they bash on or spit on your car. Loathsome people from a loathsome place.

  16. @Steve Sailer
    Potential immigrants from Norway would typically be those with very high potential incomes (and tax payments) who find Norway too small of a pond for their sizable talents.

    I don’t think there is any point in discussing Norway as a small population plus low birthrate means you could more or less allow any number of them in.

    Oh wait.

    Pakistani Gang War(Norway)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegians_with_Pakistani_background

    • Replies: @Dennis Dale
    All the more reason. We'll be taking them on as refugees soon enough.
  17. @Ali Choudhury
    Few if any Norwegians would look to emigrate to the US. They have an oil-rich country, virtually free healthcare, get 5 weeks of vacation, generous parental leave when the wife gives birth and the working day is 730 to 330. What normal person would trade that to come to America? The fear of being forced into bankruptcy by medical bills is a major disincentive for those in developed countries to move to the US permanently. It only really makes sense to go if you will be a very high earner and then you are probably earning enough already in Paris, Barcelona, Stockholm etc. to be comfortable enough that additional material rewards won't really tempt you and being away from your family and friends is a wrench you do not need to take. So the incentives to move only really suit the ambitious looking to leave undeveloped countries.

    It is not true to assume brainy emigrants in a Third World country hurt it by leaving. I lived in one for ten years, most of that talent simply gets wasted dealing with an environment of minimal opportunity, graft, nepotism and cultural stupidity. In a developed country they get to develop their skills, their networks and help the old country out far more by sending remittances (like the Filipino diaspora) than by wasting away in an unproductive role. There is always enough talent back home that can service the need for skilled employment if the ruling powers ever decide to make the country liveable for anyone but themselves.

    In a developed country they get to develop their skills, their networks and help the old country out far more by sending remittances (like the Filipino diaspora) than by wasting away in an unproductive role.

    In reality, remittances often do more harm than good. From a WSJ article Steve posted about a few years back:

    Where I work in Guatemala, remittances have inflated the price of land to astounding levels; most families are unable to buy property unless they can place at least one wage-earner in the U.S. So every family is under pressure to send someone north. Migrants must borrow at least $5,000 to pay human smugglers. Many pay 10% monthly interest and put up family land as collateral. So they’re betting the farm. When something goes wrong, they lose it.

    That same writer, IIRC, also noted that remittances promote idleness and crime in receiving countries. The Philippines has a huge drug problem. I wouldn’t be surprised if remittances played a role in it.

    In short, remittances don’t appear to be a path upward for poor countries. Poor countries that become rich usually do so by cultivating successful local businesses that can scale.

    • Replies: @Thomm

    In short, remittances don’t appear to be a path upward for poor countries. Poor countries that become rich usually do so by cultivating successful local businesses that can scale.
     
    It is partly true, but definitely a mixed bag. China's remittances in the 80s and 90s played a huge role in its ascent. It was the initial seed capital in the immense rise that China has managed. The difference, it seems, was whether a country had the ability or inclination to create high-tech industries. Hence Taiwan (or even China) vs. Guatemala.

    Plus, this argument has in fact been the basis for 'family reunification' immigration policies that led to chain migration. The idea was to not see remittances, which are both a capital exodus from the new country and inflationary distortions in the old country.

    Every solution has various complicated side effects.

    , @Ali Choudhury
    Guatemala is a dysfunctional country which exports the unskilled. The Filipinos have far more on the ball and export quality people. Filipino nurses in the NHS in the UK have a reputation of being among the best in the business thanks to their common sense and years of practical experience.

    http://www.xpressmoney.com/blog/industry/remittances-and-domestic-consumption-in-the-philippines/

    2017 has been a bumper remittance year for the Philippines. Data from the Bangko Sentral ng Pilipinas (BSP) shows that personal remittances hit USD 2.91 billion in March 2017 – up from USD 2.61 billion in the same month last year. The figure crosses the previous record high of USD 2.82 billion for December 2016.

    Where do these remittances go? How do they help? Their positive impact is multi-tiered, and it all adds towards sparking the domestic consumption so necessary for economic growth.

    First, these remittances help lift people and families out of poverty. Then, they help them avoid sliding back into the poverty trap if confronted by unexpected life circumstances – such as a family member falling sick.

    And of course, they boost weekly spending on food and essentials – creating more domestic demand. But these remittances aren’t only used to meet day to day needs. A recent IFAD1 report says that around 25% of remittances received are saved, and then used in the pursuit of individual and collective goals. These savings are put into assets such as family homes. They are used to improve access to healthcare, nutrition and education – which gives the next generation a better quality of life and access to more opportunities. This is domestic consumption too – but of a more strategic nature, and geared towards the longer term.

    These remittances also go towards kick-starting entrepreneurial activities and sparking micro-businesses. There is clear evidence that remittance-receiving households are more included to entrepreneurship – because they have the money to do so, and the safety net to take a chance.2

    And so the virtuous cycle continues, with these small businesses employing more people and paying out wages that in turn help other families lift themselves out of poverty and further spur consumption.

     

    , @nebulafox
    I think it lies deeper than that. Indonesia also has a fair amount of remittances money to this day from the maid trade, yet it made radical economic progress during the Suharto years, whereas the Philippines regressed. (Interestingly enough, foreign money still came in a reliable flow from the Netherlands and Japan during the Sukarno era, despite his efforts to make Indonesia a pariah state-one reason why I don't think it was quite the decisive factor.) People who have never been to the PI tend to have a hard time grasping what a profoundly broken country it is-the very basic foundations and institutions are rotten to the core in a way they really aren't anywhere else in the region. If you go around what used to be Clark AFB up near Angeles, the local barrio dwellers wander around the jungle looking for old fuselage to sell as scrap.

    The truly sad part is you'll see these Filipinas with nursing or engineering credentials working as maids in the Middle East. It gives them more money than they can ever earn back home. And the employers abuse them because they know they their families are dependent on them.

  18. Norway can’t spare us any more quality Norwegians. They need all of their own. Norway has got all it can do to fend off its own ****holistani invasion.

  19. A classic video.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    The reason that presentation goes nowhere with contemporary economists and policy makers is because it denies and ignores marginalism and marginal utility.
  20. @Dave Pinsen

    In a developed country they get to develop their skills, their networks and help the old country out far more by sending remittances (like the Filipino diaspora) than by wasting away in an unproductive role.
     
    In reality, remittances often do more harm than good. From a WSJ article Steve posted about a few years back:

    Where I work in Guatemala, remittances have inflated the price of land to astounding levels; most families are unable to buy property unless they can place at least one wage-earner in the U.S. So every family is under pressure to send someone north. Migrants must borrow at least $5,000 to pay human smugglers. Many pay 10% monthly interest and put up family land as collateral. So they’re betting the farm. When something goes wrong, they lose it.
     
    That same writer, IIRC, also noted that remittances promote idleness and crime in receiving countries. The Philippines has a huge drug problem. I wouldn't be surprised if remittances played a role in it.

    In short, remittances don't appear to be a path upward for poor countries. Poor countries that become rich usually do so by cultivating successful local businesses that can scale.

    In short, remittances don’t appear to be a path upward for poor countries. Poor countries that become rich usually do so by cultivating successful local businesses that can scale.

    It is partly true, but definitely a mixed bag. China’s remittances in the 80s and 90s played a huge role in its ascent. It was the initial seed capital in the immense rise that China has managed. The difference, it seems, was whether a country had the ability or inclination to create high-tech industries. Hence Taiwan (or even China) vs. Guatemala.

    Plus, this argument has in fact been the basis for ‘family reunification’ immigration policies that led to chain migration. The idea was to not see remittances, which are both a capital exodus from the new country and inflationary distortions in the old country.

    Every solution has various complicated side effects.

    • Replies: @nebulafox
    You know, the irony is in 1980, Mexico was much more developed and wealthier than China, and the Philippines used to be the second richest country in Asia behind Japan. Really shows how much Marcos hosed the place.

    I think this is one of those things that really depends to the individual country. Another thing that massively helped China was having very easy access to Hong Kong-based investment. Since anything went in HK-only place in the world where free trade is enshrined in the constitution-people could easily come over from Japan and Taiwan and dump technical know-how and money. Apart from being nice and isolated in case things went wrong, that's why Deng chose Shenzhen as the first major SEZ. (Nowadays, Hong Kong is going through some interesting times, because its main functions in finance have been taken over by Shanghai.)

    Other factors I can think of include:

    1) The fact that Latin America has serious "law and order" problems that China doesn't, or had massively devastating civil wars, or both.

    2) The fact that the Chinese government was much better organized and did some serious investment into infrastructure, education, etc. The Cultural Revolution did some pretty extreme damage, but the underlying basis was still there to lay back on. Mao (the modern Emperor Qin Shi Huang) did a great number of evil things, but China also didn't have mass literacy issues or land reform problems because of him. China also had experience with "big science" through things like the atom bomb project-which means they have the background to do things like the BGI now.

    3) Ironically enough, because China was starting from such a low-level, it could build from scratch without running into entrenched problems like the USSR did. After the Gang of Four fell, there was no serious objection to the early 1980s reforms made to prevent a Mao-like cult of personality from sprouting again.

    4) The foreign student diaspora. Graduate students don't really have the money to send back remittances, but they are way, way more valuable in the long run. Having a very strong traditional emphasis on education helps here. It's partially the legacy of Confucianism, but partially not: one reason the USSR churned out really gifted mathematicians and engineers was because that was the road to social advancement there, and countries like India ended up patterning things like the IITs off the mathematical education system there.

    Also, in the past decade, we've begun to see Chinese students return *to* China after getting advanced education. Not everybody-Singapore and the US still sees non-trivial PRC immigration-but a fair amount. That would have been thought of as insane as recently as the 2000s. I can't speak for India since I have no experience with the place outside of what graduate students have told me, but I'd imagine something similar might happen down the line.

  21. I just wrote about something similar in a comment to Derb’s most recent column.

    http://www.unz.com/jderbyshire/cast-down-your-bucket-where-you-are/#comment-2174196

  22. The United States doesn’t really need to bring in any immigrants. As others have said here, over and over, we have enough highly intelligent and industrious people to supply whatever employment we need for all our industrial and business needs. Even more middle-classary people will only mean we will have more unemployed whenever the markets cool, thus putting a greater strain on the welfare system – which is now sucking up trillions of dollars every decade, borrowed, by the way, from our competitors who will gladly let us borrow until our debt collapses completely. Then, to be sure, we will be one of the most miserable of sh*tholes along with Haiti.

    We don’t need – and the average person doesn’t want – more immigrants to take our jobs and corrupt our way of life even more than they have. Why are we so intent on bringing into the country people who serve no useful purpose? There is no moral value in a compassion that works negatively to one’s well being.

    • Agree: Autochthon, Alden
    • Replies: @Harry Baldwin
    borrowed, by the way, from our competitors

    Foreign nations hold only about a third of our national debt.

    http://www.justfacts.com/nationaldebt.asp
  23. This helps explain why Haitian diaspora communities have a fairly decent reputation while Haiti itself is remarkably backward.

    Not with me. The ones I encounter are nice but not too bright and not university graduates. None will be coders and if they are an MD I would never see one. That graph up top looks like BS to me. How was it even put together? Where did he get the numbers from? Plus I have encountered the backward Haitians here. Not a pretty sight.

  24. Steve,

    Don’t you understand. We’re all the same. However, due to white racists – current and present – some countries haven’t developed as much as others. Therefore, we need to bring in people from terrible countries to allow them to absorb our culture and institutions so that they can become just like us – not that there is an “us.”

    In time, all of those immigrants will become doctors, scientists and engineers (assuming, of course, you white racists don’t stop them).

    Yes, of course, this doesn’t help the immigrants’ current countries in the future. Unfortunately, because of evil racists like you, they never developed, but we can only help so many of these unfortunates at a time.

    People from white countries don’t need our help because, of course, they’re white, and we’re never subjected to white racism.

    What’s that you say? The Poles, the Irish, the Slavs and a myriad of other European peoples were subject to slavery, discrimination and brutal repression equal to anything that American blacks faced.

    Well, that seems simply impossible. Besides, I believe that many of them were anti-Semitic so it serves them right.

    Now, let’s get back to the fact that whites are evil.

  25. I would prefer to see a graph of exponentially falling immigration month by month until it’s a negative number.

  26. @Steve Sailer
    Potential immigrants from Norway would typically be those with very high potential incomes (and tax payments) who find Norway too small of a pond for their sizable talents.

    They can move to London very easily if they want a bigger, world-class pond to play in that is a 2 hour plane ride from home. Trying to get to the US legally is a bureaucratic drudge. It took Linus Torvalds forever to move to the US and he created Linux!

    See his Congressional testimony on the pain that came with dealing with the INS.

    http://www.techlawjournal.com/employ/20000225tor.htm

    I came to the US just over three years ago on a H-1B visa. An H-1B, of course, is the most common visa for my kind of skilled workforce interested in working in the US.

    Getting the visa was not a huge problem: the company I work for has done the paperwork before, and as my application was at the beginning of the visa year and I come from Western Europe there were no huge lines or visa caps that would have been a problem.

    Coming here, we didn’t know what to expect – whether we’d actually like living in the US or not. Having been here three years I can definitely say that we’ve liked it a lot, and we feel this is home. But it cannot really be home as long as we might be kicked out at any time.

    And that is where the INS experience has broken down. In order to actually be a permanent resident, and what makes you start appreciating the pure bureaucracy of the whole INS experience, you can’t just apply for a green card. You start out applying for permission to apply. Once you have petitioned (and been allowed) to actually work here as an immigrant rather than as a temporary worker, you can then actually move on to the exalted status of waiting for your green card application (I-485) to be accepted …. which can take a long time. The official INS notion of action papers said that the I-485 phase is supposed to take half a year. It’s been a year and a half now, and the INS hasn’t informed me of my status. In the meantime, whenever we want to travel to meet friends and family in Finland, we need to make sure that we have extra travel documents so that we can actually come back to where we live and work.

    Why is this bureaucracy in place? Why does it take nine months to get a drivers license in California if you’re out-of-country and the INS has to verify that you’re here legally? Why are people left pending, their whole lives on hold while papers get shuffled for years without end?

    In short, the current INS system doesn’t work even for the people who have everything going for them. I can only say that I’m happy I’m considered a sure case, because based on my experience with the INS I’d really hate to be in a category that is considered problematic.

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    Torvalds says there he came over on an H-1B. Had he not created Linux yet? David H. Hansson came over from Denmark on an O-1, because he'd already created Rails, IIRC. Presumably, Torvalds would have qualified for an O-1 for Linux.
    , @AnotherGuessModel
    On the other hand, America has several “walk in the park” ways of becoming a permanent resident or citizen that Finland does not, and that I believe most Europeans would quietly admit are “problematic”.

    American culture specifically happens to provide a good antidote for certain negative or at least limiting aspects of Scandinavian culture, both economic and social. I don’t mean to be uncharitable towards your comments, but it seems like you have not considered and would have trouble articulating why a healthy amount of people from free, well-off countries, I presume including “normal” Norwegians, want to move to the USA.
    , @Twodees Partain
    Linus, if only you had come to North Carolina under the name of Fausto Carrillo, you could have gotten your driver's license right away and they would have registered you to vote at the DMV at the same time they issued your license.

    You would have welfare, a WIC card, a section 8 house with cable internet and could be working for yourself from home while not ever having to file an income tax return. Of course you would have had to come in through California, but hopping a bus for Charlotte would have expedited your immigration process dramatically.
  27. This is a very important insight (and enframing mechanism), Steve.

    “The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward avoiding Third World Brain Drain.”

  28. @Thomm

    In short, remittances don’t appear to be a path upward for poor countries. Poor countries that become rich usually do so by cultivating successful local businesses that can scale.
     
    It is partly true, but definitely a mixed bag. China's remittances in the 80s and 90s played a huge role in its ascent. It was the initial seed capital in the immense rise that China has managed. The difference, it seems, was whether a country had the ability or inclination to create high-tech industries. Hence Taiwan (or even China) vs. Guatemala.

    Plus, this argument has in fact been the basis for 'family reunification' immigration policies that led to chain migration. The idea was to not see remittances, which are both a capital exodus from the new country and inflationary distortions in the old country.

    Every solution has various complicated side effects.

    You know, the irony is in 1980, Mexico was much more developed and wealthier than China, and the Philippines used to be the second richest country in Asia behind Japan. Really shows how much Marcos hosed the place.

    I think this is one of those things that really depends to the individual country. Another thing that massively helped China was having very easy access to Hong Kong-based investment. Since anything went in HK-only place in the world where free trade is enshrined in the constitution-people could easily come over from Japan and Taiwan and dump technical know-how and money. Apart from being nice and isolated in case things went wrong, that’s why Deng chose Shenzhen as the first major SEZ. (Nowadays, Hong Kong is going through some interesting times, because its main functions in finance have been taken over by Shanghai.)

    Other factors I can think of include:

    1) The fact that Latin America has serious “law and order” problems that China doesn’t, or had massively devastating civil wars, or both.

    2) The fact that the Chinese government was much better organized and did some serious investment into infrastructure, education, etc. The Cultural Revolution did some pretty extreme damage, but the underlying basis was still there to lay back on. Mao (the modern Emperor Qin Shi Huang) did a great number of evil things, but China also didn’t have mass literacy issues or land reform problems because of him. China also had experience with “big science” through things like the atom bomb project-which means they have the background to do things like the BGI now.

    3) Ironically enough, because China was starting from such a low-level, it could build from scratch without running into entrenched problems like the USSR did. After the Gang of Four fell, there was no serious objection to the early 1980s reforms made to prevent a Mao-like cult of personality from sprouting again.

    4) The foreign student diaspora. Graduate students don’t really have the money to send back remittances, but they are way, way more valuable in the long run. Having a very strong traditional emphasis on education helps here. It’s partially the legacy of Confucianism, but partially not: one reason the USSR churned out really gifted mathematicians and engineers was because that was the road to social advancement there, and countries like India ended up patterning things like the IITs off the mathematical education system there.

    Also, in the past decade, we’ve begun to see Chinese students return *to* China after getting advanced education. Not everybody-Singapore and the US still sees non-trivial PRC immigration-but a fair amount. That would have been thought of as insane as recently as the 2000s. I can’t speak for India since I have no experience with the place outside of what graduate students have told me, but I’d imagine something similar might happen down the line.

    • Replies: @Thomm

    You know, the irony is in 1980, Mexico was much more developed and wealthier than China, and the Philippines used to be the second richest country in Asia behind Japan. Really shows how much Marcos hosed the place.
     
    Oh, it goes further. Asia was the center of the world economy since ancient times until 1800. The recent high growth of China and India is arguably just a reversion to the long-term status quo :

    http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-CkKook7ouRo/U8b-tIlPrgI/AAAAAAAAGv0/GlVdZDTg9nI/s640/20120630_wom941.png

    This is why the IQ argument is really just useful in differentiation blacks from Eurasians (since blacks have NEVER been at parity was Eurasia at any point since 2000 BC), but not really for any divisions more refined than that. One has to ignore any history before 1800 to convince themselves of major differences in civilizational potential between the various Eurasian groups.

    , @Dave Pinsen

    You know, the irony is in 1980, Mexico was much more developed and wealthier than China, and the Philippines used to be the second richest country in Asia behind Japan. Really shows how much Marcos hosed the place.
     
    I think that was more a function of the previous ~150 years of China getting ground down, from the Opium Wars, to the warlordism, the civil war, the Japanese occupation and World War II, the Cultural Revolution, etc. In 1980, China had just gotten started on its modern capitalist path. In contrast, the Philippines had centuries of Spanish and then American colonial government (with the brief Japanese occupation).

    So, China always had a lot of latent human capital, held back by many decades of war, instability and bad government. The Philippines always had less human capital, but had suffered less turmoil. Some of its most talented people have emigrated in recent decades, and it never had the bench strength China did.
  29. @Clifford Brown
    A classic video.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPjzfGChGlE

    The reason that presentation goes nowhere with contemporary economists and policy makers is because it denies and ignores marginalism and marginal utility.

  30. @Dave Pinsen

    In a developed country they get to develop their skills, their networks and help the old country out far more by sending remittances (like the Filipino diaspora) than by wasting away in an unproductive role.
     
    In reality, remittances often do more harm than good. From a WSJ article Steve posted about a few years back:

    Where I work in Guatemala, remittances have inflated the price of land to astounding levels; most families are unable to buy property unless they can place at least one wage-earner in the U.S. So every family is under pressure to send someone north. Migrants must borrow at least $5,000 to pay human smugglers. Many pay 10% monthly interest and put up family land as collateral. So they’re betting the farm. When something goes wrong, they lose it.
     
    That same writer, IIRC, also noted that remittances promote idleness and crime in receiving countries. The Philippines has a huge drug problem. I wouldn't be surprised if remittances played a role in it.

    In short, remittances don't appear to be a path upward for poor countries. Poor countries that become rich usually do so by cultivating successful local businesses that can scale.

    Guatemala is a dysfunctional country which exports the unskilled. The Filipinos have far more on the ball and export quality people. Filipino nurses in the NHS in the UK have a reputation of being among the best in the business thanks to their common sense and years of practical experience.

    http://www.xpressmoney.com/blog/industry/remittances-and-domestic-consumption-in-the-philippines/

    2017 has been a bumper remittance year for the Philippines. Data from the Bangko Sentral ng Pilipinas (BSP) shows that personal remittances hit USD 2.91 billion in March 2017 – up from USD 2.61 billion in the same month last year. The figure crosses the previous record high of USD 2.82 billion for December 2016.

    Where do these remittances go? How do they help? Their positive impact is multi-tiered, and it all adds towards sparking the domestic consumption so necessary for economic growth.

    First, these remittances help lift people and families out of poverty. Then, they help them avoid sliding back into the poverty trap if confronted by unexpected life circumstances – such as a family member falling sick.

    And of course, they boost weekly spending on food and essentials – creating more domestic demand. But these remittances aren’t only used to meet day to day needs. A recent IFAD1 report says that around 25% of remittances received are saved, and then used in the pursuit of individual and collective goals. These savings are put into assets such as family homes. They are used to improve access to healthcare, nutrition and education – which gives the next generation a better quality of life and access to more opportunities. This is domestic consumption too – but of a more strategic nature, and geared towards the longer term.

    These remittances also go towards kick-starting entrepreneurial activities and sparking micro-businesses. There is clear evidence that remittance-receiving households are more included to entrepreneurship – because they have the money to do so, and the safety net to take a chance.2

    And so the virtuous cycle continues, with these small businesses employing more people and paying out wages that in turn help other families lift themselves out of poverty and further spur consumption.

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    Yeah, I'm familiar with Filipino immigrants, and they tend to be pretty high quality. I drive out of my way to go to the Dunkin' Donuts franchise run by a Filipino clan (presumably owned by a physician patriarch), because they seem a lot cleaner and nicer than the ones run by immigrants from less hygienic countries.

    But re this:


    Where do these remittances go? How do they help? Their positive impact is multi-tiered, and it all adds towards sparking the domestic consumption so necessary for economic growth.
     
    Domestic consumption isn't typically how developing countries get rich. The ones that get rich do so via export-led growth. Domestic consumption comes later.
  31. @George
    I don't think there is any point in discussing Norway as a small population plus low birthrate means you could more or less allow any number of them in.

    Oh wait.

    Pakistani Gang War(Norway)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1K9RIG4JoYk

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegians_with_Pakistani_background

    All the more reason. We’ll be taking them on as refugees soon enough.

  32. @Dave Pinsen

    In a developed country they get to develop their skills, their networks and help the old country out far more by sending remittances (like the Filipino diaspora) than by wasting away in an unproductive role.
     
    In reality, remittances often do more harm than good. From a WSJ article Steve posted about a few years back:

    Where I work in Guatemala, remittances have inflated the price of land to astounding levels; most families are unable to buy property unless they can place at least one wage-earner in the U.S. So every family is under pressure to send someone north. Migrants must borrow at least $5,000 to pay human smugglers. Many pay 10% monthly interest and put up family land as collateral. So they’re betting the farm. When something goes wrong, they lose it.
     
    That same writer, IIRC, also noted that remittances promote idleness and crime in receiving countries. The Philippines has a huge drug problem. I wouldn't be surprised if remittances played a role in it.

    In short, remittances don't appear to be a path upward for poor countries. Poor countries that become rich usually do so by cultivating successful local businesses that can scale.

    I think it lies deeper than that. Indonesia also has a fair amount of remittances money to this day from the maid trade, yet it made radical economic progress during the Suharto years, whereas the Philippines regressed. (Interestingly enough, foreign money still came in a reliable flow from the Netherlands and Japan during the Sukarno era, despite his efforts to make Indonesia a pariah state-one reason why I don’t think it was quite the decisive factor.) People who have never been to the PI tend to have a hard time grasping what a profoundly broken country it is-the very basic foundations and institutions are rotten to the core in a way they really aren’t anywhere else in the region. If you go around what used to be Clark AFB up near Angeles, the local barrio dwellers wander around the jungle looking for old fuselage to sell as scrap.

    The truly sad part is you’ll see these Filipinas with nursing or engineering credentials working as maids in the Middle East. It gives them more money than they can ever earn back home. And the employers abuse them because they know they their families are dependent on them.

    • Replies: @nebulafox
    I should correct myself: Cambodia is probably just as broken.

    Hun Sen reminds me a lot of Suharto. Authentic military background (unlike Marcos), long-lived, highly nepotistic, extremely pragmatic. However, while Suharto's hands were much bloodier, he also did a lot more for his people. Hun Sen has never shown much interest in economic development beyond what is required to stay rich and on top. Much to the exasperation of the Vietnamese, but the Khmers can be a pretty touchy bunch, so Hanoi lets him stay...

    , @PiltdownMan

    The truly sad part is you’ll see these Filipinas with nursing or engineering credentials working as maids in the Middle East.
     
    About a couple of decades ago, when PiltdownWoman and I lived in Asia, we interviewed about 30 Filipinas, who were looking to work for us as full-time, live-in help, which was the norm among expatriate families in Hong Kong and Singapore. The going wage was about US$250. It was heart-breaking to learn that some of these women, many of them very personable, bright, and fluent in English, had college degrees. One of them had even worked in a commercial bank in the Philippines in a junior administrative position, and had been credit-trained as a lending officer.

    Unlike emigration to the West, most of these foreign domestic worker jobs are totally dead-end. Millions of these women work in affluent countries in Asia and the Middle-East, single, presumably celibate, supporting extended family back home, for a few decades, until old-age, when, typically they are no longer eligible to hold their work visas. Their employers sequester their passports, and the host country governments cede a great deal of power over the maids to the employers.

    While I'm all for tightly controlled limited-term guest-worker programs, the mindset of the Confucian and Arab non-Western societies that exploit these people by the millions is truly alien to us.

  33. One lesson of this data seems to be that if you don’t have dreams of making it big, it makes more sense to stay on your own island.
    (That makes sense, especially given that those who make it really big wish to have their own island.)

  34. The Islamization of Oslo

    In Groruddalen, a large neighborhood of the Norwegian capital, heavy Muslim immigration is testing multiculturalism’s limits.

    https://www.city-journal.org/html/islamization-oslo-15686.html

  35. @nebulafox
    You know, the irony is in 1980, Mexico was much more developed and wealthier than China, and the Philippines used to be the second richest country in Asia behind Japan. Really shows how much Marcos hosed the place.

    I think this is one of those things that really depends to the individual country. Another thing that massively helped China was having very easy access to Hong Kong-based investment. Since anything went in HK-only place in the world where free trade is enshrined in the constitution-people could easily come over from Japan and Taiwan and dump technical know-how and money. Apart from being nice and isolated in case things went wrong, that's why Deng chose Shenzhen as the first major SEZ. (Nowadays, Hong Kong is going through some interesting times, because its main functions in finance have been taken over by Shanghai.)

    Other factors I can think of include:

    1) The fact that Latin America has serious "law and order" problems that China doesn't, or had massively devastating civil wars, or both.

    2) The fact that the Chinese government was much better organized and did some serious investment into infrastructure, education, etc. The Cultural Revolution did some pretty extreme damage, but the underlying basis was still there to lay back on. Mao (the modern Emperor Qin Shi Huang) did a great number of evil things, but China also didn't have mass literacy issues or land reform problems because of him. China also had experience with "big science" through things like the atom bomb project-which means they have the background to do things like the BGI now.

    3) Ironically enough, because China was starting from such a low-level, it could build from scratch without running into entrenched problems like the USSR did. After the Gang of Four fell, there was no serious objection to the early 1980s reforms made to prevent a Mao-like cult of personality from sprouting again.

    4) The foreign student diaspora. Graduate students don't really have the money to send back remittances, but they are way, way more valuable in the long run. Having a very strong traditional emphasis on education helps here. It's partially the legacy of Confucianism, but partially not: one reason the USSR churned out really gifted mathematicians and engineers was because that was the road to social advancement there, and countries like India ended up patterning things like the IITs off the mathematical education system there.

    Also, in the past decade, we've begun to see Chinese students return *to* China after getting advanced education. Not everybody-Singapore and the US still sees non-trivial PRC immigration-but a fair amount. That would have been thought of as insane as recently as the 2000s. I can't speak for India since I have no experience with the place outside of what graduate students have told me, but I'd imagine something similar might happen down the line.

    You know, the irony is in 1980, Mexico was much more developed and wealthier than China, and the Philippines used to be the second richest country in Asia behind Japan. Really shows how much Marcos hosed the place.

    Oh, it goes further. Asia was the center of the world economy since ancient times until 1800. The recent high growth of China and India is arguably just a reversion to the long-term status quo :

    This is why the IQ argument is really just useful in differentiation blacks from Eurasians (since blacks have NEVER been at parity was Eurasia at any point since 2000 BC), but not really for any divisions more refined than that. One has to ignore any history before 1800 to convince themselves of major differences in civilizational potential between the various Eurasian groups.

    • Replies: @fnn
    This shows Europe was well ahead of Asia by 1500:

    , @songbird
    I wouldn't say that. Greeks and Romans had vastly superior art, than anything outside Europe, for one thing.

    1800 is rather too late besides. It ignores the Renaissance, Shakespeare, as well as the development of many of the fundamental economic ideas that later transformed the world. Adam Smith noted the potential of India and China, but they didn't develop his ideas. The Space Race was presaged by Newton, Descartes and many others.

    Most of the world is still in Europe's shadow and that includes most of the world outside of SSA. And that's only becoming clearer as large numbers settle in Europe and debunk the idea of magic dirt.
    , @AnotherDad

    This is why the IQ argument is really just useful in differentiation blacks from Eurasians (since blacks have NEVER been at parity was Eurasia at any point since 2000 BC), but not really for any divisions more refined than that.
     
    Incorrect. Yes, the Africa/Eurasia thing is the big zeroth order effect, but if you think it ends there, you're just completely missed the boat.

    I'll throw out some of the more obvious:

    Indonesia vs. China -- Indonesia not under the commie thumb and good relations with the US, but saw no development like what we've seen in China.

    Philippines vs. Korea -- same deal, Philippines had good relations with the US, didn't have the war, has had nothing like the same export driven takeoff.

    China vs. India -- India had British law and at least cordial relations with the US and the West while China was mired in Maoism; it's not going anywhere like China is

    Latin America vs. the US/Canada -- yes English culture was superior to Spanish culture in supporting commercial development ... but it's been years and years and years and the lag remains; there's zero indication it's going away, only that the US/Canada being dragged down by immigrants


    All these effects are primarily HBD driven.

    We've had the American trade regime for 70 years now, and the post-Cold War version of it for approaching 30 of that. There really aren't any "secrets" out there to account for these divergences or "failures". Yes there is "history". Many places are still "catching up". But that process should be underway. We have *really* bad governance--e.g. North Korea--that is able to destroy people's potential. And we have Islam which seems able to seriously degrade it--my estimate is it effectively knocks off about 5 IQ points. But most of what we see out there--especially if things aren't at least trending in the right direction--is HBD.
    , @nebulafox
    It's not as though Mexico didn't try, to be fair to them (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maquiladora), but for reasons ranging from government ineptitude in investment to the fact that the industrial districts of Mexico got hit hardest by the drug war, low-scale manufacturing was never able to take off there in the way it did in China.

    I think what everybody here tends to forget is that places like China, India, and Africa have such gigantic populations these days that, no matter what the average IQ is, you'll have plenty of retards and plenty of geniuses by sheer force of numbers. That, and India and Africa still have a lot of things like stupid diseases and childhood malnutrition that will inevitably artificially deflate the number. For India, at least, that should probably change over the next couple of decades. Same story for the parts of Africa that can get their population boom problem in order.

  36. @Anon
    Every poor African nation should build a statue of a woman holding a torch and put up a plaque with words, "Give us your rich, industrious, innovative, productive, ingenious so they can invest in our nation and build infrastructure and stuff so that we can live much better."

    And all the Progressive Western types can go there to enjoy the Diversity and use their energies toward making lives better for ALL Africans. If the US just takes in African elites, they do well in the US but Africans left behind do worse.

    Every poor African nation should build a statue of a woman holding a torch and put up a plaque with words…

    Excellent idea, but remember, it has to be a poem. Poetry has a magical effect on the Jim Acostas of the world.

  37. @nebulafox
    You know, the irony is in 1980, Mexico was much more developed and wealthier than China, and the Philippines used to be the second richest country in Asia behind Japan. Really shows how much Marcos hosed the place.

    I think this is one of those things that really depends to the individual country. Another thing that massively helped China was having very easy access to Hong Kong-based investment. Since anything went in HK-only place in the world where free trade is enshrined in the constitution-people could easily come over from Japan and Taiwan and dump technical know-how and money. Apart from being nice and isolated in case things went wrong, that's why Deng chose Shenzhen as the first major SEZ. (Nowadays, Hong Kong is going through some interesting times, because its main functions in finance have been taken over by Shanghai.)

    Other factors I can think of include:

    1) The fact that Latin America has serious "law and order" problems that China doesn't, or had massively devastating civil wars, or both.

    2) The fact that the Chinese government was much better organized and did some serious investment into infrastructure, education, etc. The Cultural Revolution did some pretty extreme damage, but the underlying basis was still there to lay back on. Mao (the modern Emperor Qin Shi Huang) did a great number of evil things, but China also didn't have mass literacy issues or land reform problems because of him. China also had experience with "big science" through things like the atom bomb project-which means they have the background to do things like the BGI now.

    3) Ironically enough, because China was starting from such a low-level, it could build from scratch without running into entrenched problems like the USSR did. After the Gang of Four fell, there was no serious objection to the early 1980s reforms made to prevent a Mao-like cult of personality from sprouting again.

    4) The foreign student diaspora. Graduate students don't really have the money to send back remittances, but they are way, way more valuable in the long run. Having a very strong traditional emphasis on education helps here. It's partially the legacy of Confucianism, but partially not: one reason the USSR churned out really gifted mathematicians and engineers was because that was the road to social advancement there, and countries like India ended up patterning things like the IITs off the mathematical education system there.

    Also, in the past decade, we've begun to see Chinese students return *to* China after getting advanced education. Not everybody-Singapore and the US still sees non-trivial PRC immigration-but a fair amount. That would have been thought of as insane as recently as the 2000s. I can't speak for India since I have no experience with the place outside of what graduate students have told me, but I'd imagine something similar might happen down the line.

    You know, the irony is in 1980, Mexico was much more developed and wealthier than China, and the Philippines used to be the second richest country in Asia behind Japan. Really shows how much Marcos hosed the place.

    I think that was more a function of the previous ~150 years of China getting ground down, from the Opium Wars, to the warlordism, the civil war, the Japanese occupation and World War II, the Cultural Revolution, etc. In 1980, China had just gotten started on its modern capitalist path. In contrast, the Philippines had centuries of Spanish and then American colonial government (with the brief Japanese occupation).

    So, China always had a lot of latent human capital, held back by many decades of war, instability and bad government. The Philippines always had less human capital, but had suffered less turmoil. Some of its most talented people have emigrated in recent decades, and it never had the bench strength China did.

    • Replies: @nebulafox
    Fair point. An interesting European counterpart to that: Germany had a lot of rigorously trained human capital (by the standards of the day) that ended up in the Russian Empire after the Thirty Year's War devastated everything and because the inept little princelings didn't offer many opportunities. You'd see German districts in Warsaw, Petersberg, and the rest before the World Wars like you still see Chinatowns in Bangkok, Kuala Lumpur, Jakarta etc. Germany as a functional nation-state didn't start patching it together until quite some time later.

    However, as I mentioned in a different post, the PI still utterly collapsed while countries that were worse off in the region and arguably had even less human capital (Indonesia) got better. So, something really bad happened in Manila.

  38. @nebulafox
    I think it lies deeper than that. Indonesia also has a fair amount of remittances money to this day from the maid trade, yet it made radical economic progress during the Suharto years, whereas the Philippines regressed. (Interestingly enough, foreign money still came in a reliable flow from the Netherlands and Japan during the Sukarno era, despite his efforts to make Indonesia a pariah state-one reason why I don't think it was quite the decisive factor.) People who have never been to the PI tend to have a hard time grasping what a profoundly broken country it is-the very basic foundations and institutions are rotten to the core in a way they really aren't anywhere else in the region. If you go around what used to be Clark AFB up near Angeles, the local barrio dwellers wander around the jungle looking for old fuselage to sell as scrap.

    The truly sad part is you'll see these Filipinas with nursing or engineering credentials working as maids in the Middle East. It gives them more money than they can ever earn back home. And the employers abuse them because they know they their families are dependent on them.

    I should correct myself: Cambodia is probably just as broken.

    Hun Sen reminds me a lot of Suharto. Authentic military background (unlike Marcos), long-lived, highly nepotistic, extremely pragmatic. However, while Suharto’s hands were much bloodier, he also did a lot more for his people. Hun Sen has never shown much interest in economic development beyond what is required to stay rich and on top. Much to the exasperation of the Vietnamese, but the Khmers can be a pretty touchy bunch, so Hanoi lets him stay…

  39. @Ali Choudhury
    They can move to London very easily if they want a bigger, world-class pond to play in that is a 2 hour plane ride from home. Trying to get to the US legally is a bureaucratic drudge. It took Linus Torvalds forever to move to the US and he created Linux!

    See his Congressional testimony on the pain that came with dealing with the INS.

    http://www.techlawjournal.com/employ/20000225tor.htm


    I came to the US just over three years ago on a H-1B visa. An H-1B, of course, is the most common visa for my kind of skilled workforce interested in working in the US.

    Getting the visa was not a huge problem: the company I work for has done the paperwork before, and as my application was at the beginning of the visa year and I come from Western Europe there were no huge lines or visa caps that would have been a problem.

    Coming here, we didn't know what to expect - whether we'd actually like living in the US or not. Having been here three years I can definitely say that we've liked it a lot, and we feel this is home. But it cannot really be home as long as we might be kicked out at any time.

    And that is where the INS experience has broken down. In order to actually be a permanent resident, and what makes you start appreciating the pure bureaucracy of the whole INS experience, you can't just apply for a green card. You start out applying for permission to apply. Once you have petitioned (and been allowed) to actually work here as an immigrant rather than as a temporary worker, you can then actually move on to the exalted status of waiting for your green card application (I-485) to be accepted .... which can take a long time. The official INS notion of action papers said that the I-485 phase is supposed to take half a year. It's been a year and a half now, and the INS hasn't informed me of my status. In the meantime, whenever we want to travel to meet friends and family in Finland, we need to make sure that we have extra travel documents so that we can actually come back to where we live and work.

    Why is this bureaucracy in place? Why does it take nine months to get a drivers license in California if you're out-of-country and the INS has to verify that you're here legally? Why are people left pending, their whole lives on hold while papers get shuffled for years without end?

    In short, the current INS system doesn't work even for the people who have everything going for them. I can only say that I'm happy I'm considered a sure case, because based on my experience with the INS I'd really hate to be in a category that is considered problematic.
     

    Torvalds says there he came over on an H-1B. Had he not created Linux yet? David H. Hansson came over from Denmark on an O-1, because he’d already created Rails, IIRC. Presumably, Torvalds would have qualified for an O-1 for Linux.

    • Replies: @Ali Choudhury
    No, he created Linux before he came to the US. It was known news in tech circles in the late 90s that he was looking to move to America for work and despite his profile his visa application was taking forever to get approved. If you want to work in the EU as an EU citizen you hop on a plane and can start straight away.
  40. @Dave Pinsen

    You know, the irony is in 1980, Mexico was much more developed and wealthier than China, and the Philippines used to be the second richest country in Asia behind Japan. Really shows how much Marcos hosed the place.
     
    I think that was more a function of the previous ~150 years of China getting ground down, from the Opium Wars, to the warlordism, the civil war, the Japanese occupation and World War II, the Cultural Revolution, etc. In 1980, China had just gotten started on its modern capitalist path. In contrast, the Philippines had centuries of Spanish and then American colonial government (with the brief Japanese occupation).

    So, China always had a lot of latent human capital, held back by many decades of war, instability and bad government. The Philippines always had less human capital, but had suffered less turmoil. Some of its most talented people have emigrated in recent decades, and it never had the bench strength China did.

    Fair point. An interesting European counterpart to that: Germany had a lot of rigorously trained human capital (by the standards of the day) that ended up in the Russian Empire after the Thirty Year’s War devastated everything and because the inept little princelings didn’t offer many opportunities. You’d see German districts in Warsaw, Petersberg, and the rest before the World Wars like you still see Chinatowns in Bangkok, Kuala Lumpur, Jakarta etc. Germany as a functional nation-state didn’t start patching it together until quite some time later.

    However, as I mentioned in a different post, the PI still utterly collapsed while countries that were worse off in the region and arguably had even less human capital (Indonesia) got better. So, something really bad happened in Manila.

  41. @Ali Choudhury
    Guatemala is a dysfunctional country which exports the unskilled. The Filipinos have far more on the ball and export quality people. Filipino nurses in the NHS in the UK have a reputation of being among the best in the business thanks to their common sense and years of practical experience.

    http://www.xpressmoney.com/blog/industry/remittances-and-domestic-consumption-in-the-philippines/

    2017 has been a bumper remittance year for the Philippines. Data from the Bangko Sentral ng Pilipinas (BSP) shows that personal remittances hit USD 2.91 billion in March 2017 – up from USD 2.61 billion in the same month last year. The figure crosses the previous record high of USD 2.82 billion for December 2016.

    Where do these remittances go? How do they help? Their positive impact is multi-tiered, and it all adds towards sparking the domestic consumption so necessary for economic growth.

    First, these remittances help lift people and families out of poverty. Then, they help them avoid sliding back into the poverty trap if confronted by unexpected life circumstances – such as a family member falling sick.

    And of course, they boost weekly spending on food and essentials – creating more domestic demand. But these remittances aren’t only used to meet day to day needs. A recent IFAD1 report says that around 25% of remittances received are saved, and then used in the pursuit of individual and collective goals. These savings are put into assets such as family homes. They are used to improve access to healthcare, nutrition and education – which gives the next generation a better quality of life and access to more opportunities. This is domestic consumption too – but of a more strategic nature, and geared towards the longer term.

    These remittances also go towards kick-starting entrepreneurial activities and sparking micro-businesses. There is clear evidence that remittance-receiving households are more included to entrepreneurship – because they have the money to do so, and the safety net to take a chance.2

    And so the virtuous cycle continues, with these small businesses employing more people and paying out wages that in turn help other families lift themselves out of poverty and further spur consumption.

     

    Yeah, I’m familiar with Filipino immigrants, and they tend to be pretty high quality. I drive out of my way to go to the Dunkin’ Donuts franchise run by a Filipino clan (presumably owned by a physician patriarch), because they seem a lot cleaner and nicer than the ones run by immigrants from less hygienic countries.

    But re this:

    Where do these remittances go? How do they help? Their positive impact is multi-tiered, and it all adds towards sparking the domestic consumption so necessary for economic growth.

    Domestic consumption isn’t typically how developing countries get rich. The ones that get rich do so via export-led growth. Domestic consumption comes later.

    • Replies: @PiltdownMan

    Domestic consumption isn’t typically how developing countries get rich. The ones that get rich do so via export-led growth. Domestic consumption comes later.
     
    True. But remittances, which can amount to billions of dollars annually, can make a significant difference to the pool of development capital available for investment export oriented small industry. This is true, especially if the recipient country economy is relatively small, such as Burma, or the Philippines. It was true, even for the relatively huge, autarkic Chinese economy of the late 1980s, which had few foreign exchange reserves, and almost no personal savings. The remittances helped spark small-scale industry in some urban centres until the early 1990s.
  42. Hey iSteve, Watch out what you wish for.

    Islam in Norway is a minority religion and the second largest religion in Norway after Christianity. Government statistics from the CIA registered 121.095 members of Islamic congregations in Norway, roughly 2.3% of the population, according to a 2011 estimation.[1] The Pew Research Center estimated that 3.7% of Norwegians were Muslim in 2010[2] and 5.7% in 2016.[3]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Norway

    The estimated population of Haitian Muslims is about 3000, representing approximately 0.04 percent of the population, although local Muslims disagree and claim the actual number is near 5000 since inaccessibility or unavailability may exclude Muslims in the count.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Haiti

    5.7% vs 0.05%, choose your poison.

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
    That didn’t make much sense.
    , @J.Ross
    You missed the presupposition (not spelled out here but widely understood) that part of getting rid of self-destructive immigration policy is eliminating this nonsense that anyone can be Norwegian. You also appear to have presupposed that Muslims living in Norway have a sizable number of reasonable and potentially interested candidates for the proposal. Assuming that there is a highly qualified Muslim doctor, wouldn't having moved to Norway be enough jet lag and culture clash for the guy?
    , @Hippopotamusdrome
    Haitians, Muslims. Brown is brown.
  43. @Hubbub
    The United States doesn't really need to bring in any immigrants. As others have said here, over and over, we have enough highly intelligent and industrious people to supply whatever employment we need for all our industrial and business needs. Even more middle-classary people will only mean we will have more unemployed whenever the markets cool, thus putting a greater strain on the welfare system - which is now sucking up trillions of dollars every decade, borrowed, by the way, from our competitors who will gladly let us borrow until our debt collapses completely. Then, to be sure, we will be one of the most miserable of sh*tholes along with Haiti.

    We don't need - and the average person doesn't want - more immigrants to take our jobs and corrupt our way of life even more than they have. Why are we so intent on bringing into the country people who serve no useful purpose? There is no moral value in a compassion that works negatively to one's well being.

    borrowed, by the way, from our competitors

    Foreign nations hold only about a third of our national debt.

    http://www.justfacts.com/nationaldebt.asp

  44. That would be better for the U.S., as well as benefit relatively “privileged” Norsks, so no.

  45. @nebulafox
    I think it lies deeper than that. Indonesia also has a fair amount of remittances money to this day from the maid trade, yet it made radical economic progress during the Suharto years, whereas the Philippines regressed. (Interestingly enough, foreign money still came in a reliable flow from the Netherlands and Japan during the Sukarno era, despite his efforts to make Indonesia a pariah state-one reason why I don't think it was quite the decisive factor.) People who have never been to the PI tend to have a hard time grasping what a profoundly broken country it is-the very basic foundations and institutions are rotten to the core in a way they really aren't anywhere else in the region. If you go around what used to be Clark AFB up near Angeles, the local barrio dwellers wander around the jungle looking for old fuselage to sell as scrap.

    The truly sad part is you'll see these Filipinas with nursing or engineering credentials working as maids in the Middle East. It gives them more money than they can ever earn back home. And the employers abuse them because they know they their families are dependent on them.

    The truly sad part is you’ll see these Filipinas with nursing or engineering credentials working as maids in the Middle East.

    About a couple of decades ago, when PiltdownWoman and I lived in Asia, we interviewed about 30 Filipinas, who were looking to work for us as full-time, live-in help, which was the norm among expatriate families in Hong Kong and Singapore. The going wage was about US$250. It was heart-breaking to learn that some of these women, many of them very personable, bright, and fluent in English, had college degrees. One of them had even worked in a commercial bank in the Philippines in a junior administrative position, and had been credit-trained as a lending officer.

    Unlike emigration to the West, most of these foreign domestic worker jobs are totally dead-end. Millions of these women work in affluent countries in Asia and the Middle-East, single, presumably celibate, supporting extended family back home, for a few decades, until old-age, when, typically they are no longer eligible to hold their work visas. Their employers sequester their passports, and the host country governments cede a great deal of power over the maids to the employers.

    While I’m all for tightly controlled limited-term guest-worker programs, the mindset of the Confucian and Arab non-Western societies that exploit these people by the millions is truly alien to us.

    • Agree: utu, Johann Ricke
  46. @Ali Choudhury
    They can move to London very easily if they want a bigger, world-class pond to play in that is a 2 hour plane ride from home. Trying to get to the US legally is a bureaucratic drudge. It took Linus Torvalds forever to move to the US and he created Linux!

    See his Congressional testimony on the pain that came with dealing with the INS.

    http://www.techlawjournal.com/employ/20000225tor.htm


    I came to the US just over three years ago on a H-1B visa. An H-1B, of course, is the most common visa for my kind of skilled workforce interested in working in the US.

    Getting the visa was not a huge problem: the company I work for has done the paperwork before, and as my application was at the beginning of the visa year and I come from Western Europe there were no huge lines or visa caps that would have been a problem.

    Coming here, we didn't know what to expect - whether we'd actually like living in the US or not. Having been here three years I can definitely say that we've liked it a lot, and we feel this is home. But it cannot really be home as long as we might be kicked out at any time.

    And that is where the INS experience has broken down. In order to actually be a permanent resident, and what makes you start appreciating the pure bureaucracy of the whole INS experience, you can't just apply for a green card. You start out applying for permission to apply. Once you have petitioned (and been allowed) to actually work here as an immigrant rather than as a temporary worker, you can then actually move on to the exalted status of waiting for your green card application (I-485) to be accepted .... which can take a long time. The official INS notion of action papers said that the I-485 phase is supposed to take half a year. It's been a year and a half now, and the INS hasn't informed me of my status. In the meantime, whenever we want to travel to meet friends and family in Finland, we need to make sure that we have extra travel documents so that we can actually come back to where we live and work.

    Why is this bureaucracy in place? Why does it take nine months to get a drivers license in California if you're out-of-country and the INS has to verify that you're here legally? Why are people left pending, their whole lives on hold while papers get shuffled for years without end?

    In short, the current INS system doesn't work even for the people who have everything going for them. I can only say that I'm happy I'm considered a sure case, because based on my experience with the INS I'd really hate to be in a category that is considered problematic.
     

    On the other hand, America has several “walk in the park” ways of becoming a permanent resident or citizen that Finland does not, and that I believe most Europeans would quietly admit are “problematic”.

    American culture specifically happens to provide a good antidote for certain negative or at least limiting aspects of Scandinavian culture, both economic and social. I don’t mean to be uncharitable towards your comments, but it seems like you have not considered and would have trouble articulating why a healthy amount of people from free, well-off countries, I presume including “normal” Norwegians, want to move to the USA.

  47. OT: AfD member (not actually leader) ‘converts to Islam.’

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5307417/Right-wing-AfD-German-politician-converts-Islam.html

    Now, I don’t know the AfD very well… but I know that NS skinheads (which the members of the AfD clearly are not), especially mentally imbalanced ones, are notorious for converting to diametrically opposed but equally extreme philosophies later in life– Islamism and Rastafarianism are the two biggest that come to mind, and David Myatt is perhaps the classic example of this tendency among the NS hardcore.

    I’m confident there’s a biological, perhaps neuro explanation for this.

    As it happens, Arthur Wagner of the AfD is not a ginger.

    About halfway down the Daily Mail article is the revelation that he’s a former Christian Democrat… ‘far-right’ indeed.

  48. @Dave Pinsen
    Yeah, I'm familiar with Filipino immigrants, and they tend to be pretty high quality. I drive out of my way to go to the Dunkin' Donuts franchise run by a Filipino clan (presumably owned by a physician patriarch), because they seem a lot cleaner and nicer than the ones run by immigrants from less hygienic countries.

    But re this:


    Where do these remittances go? How do they help? Their positive impact is multi-tiered, and it all adds towards sparking the domestic consumption so necessary for economic growth.
     
    Domestic consumption isn't typically how developing countries get rich. The ones that get rich do so via export-led growth. Domestic consumption comes later.

    Domestic consumption isn’t typically how developing countries get rich. The ones that get rich do so via export-led growth. Domestic consumption comes later.

    True. But remittances, which can amount to billions of dollars annually, can make a significant difference to the pool of development capital available for investment export oriented small industry. This is true, especially if the recipient country economy is relatively small, such as Burma, or the Philippines. It was true, even for the relatively huge, autarkic Chinese economy of the late 1980s, which had few foreign exchange reserves, and almost no personal savings. The remittances helped spark small-scale industry in some urban centres until the early 1990s.

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    It could be the sort of thing that's beneficial in certain countries up to a certain point of development, but detrimental after.
  49. OT

    ‘The moral arc of the universe bends toward Serena Williams’ (where else?).

    From the BBC (where else?):

    Tennys Sandgren: Serena Williams calls for player to apologise for tweets

    Serena Williams has called for American tennis player Tennys Sandgren to apologise for his controversial tweets…The world number 97 deleted 18 months’ worth of tweets after being questioned about his beliefs and denied he was a far-right sympathiser.

    The 23-time Grand Slam winner added: “I can’t look at my daughter and tell her I sat back and was quiet. No! she will know how to stand up for herself and others – through my example.”

    Cue Donald ‘That’s a good line’ Trump.

    And no, it’s not enough that he lost his last match.

    • Replies: @eah, @Clyde
    The Donald's hilarious response to Dick Turban going on how using words "chain migration" disturbs-insults blacks who were brought here in chains.
    https://tinyurl.com/yd3m7skq
  50. Sailer is right, as usual. But our bureaucratic overlords are not interested in morality. Instead, they want moral superiority. Moral superiority is a commodity that can only be purchased with the currency of white culture.

  51. @Dave Pinsen
    Torvalds says there he came over on an H-1B. Had he not created Linux yet? David H. Hansson came over from Denmark on an O-1, because he'd already created Rails, IIRC. Presumably, Torvalds would have qualified for an O-1 for Linux.

    No, he created Linux before he came to the US. It was known news in tech circles in the late 90s that he was looking to move to America for work and despite his profile his visa application was taking forever to get approved. If you want to work in the EU as an EU citizen you hop on a plane and can start straight away.

    • Replies: @utu
    Perhaps Microsoft was sabotaging his application for visa.
  52. @Ali Choudhury
    Few if any Norwegians would look to emigrate to the US. They have an oil-rich country, virtually free healthcare, get 5 weeks of vacation, generous parental leave when the wife gives birth and the working day is 730 to 330. What normal person would trade that to come to America? The fear of being forced into bankruptcy by medical bills is a major disincentive for those in developed countries to move to the US permanently. It only really makes sense to go if you will be a very high earner and then you are probably earning enough already in Paris, Barcelona, Stockholm etc. to be comfortable enough that additional material rewards won't really tempt you and being away from your family and friends is a wrench you do not need to take. So the incentives to move only really suit the ambitious looking to leave undeveloped countries.

    It is not true to assume brainy emigrants in a Third World country hurt it by leaving. I lived in one for ten years, most of that talent simply gets wasted dealing with an environment of minimal opportunity, graft, nepotism and cultural stupidity. In a developed country they get to develop their skills, their networks and help the old country out far more by sending remittances (like the Filipino diaspora) than by wasting away in an unproductive role. There is always enough talent back home that can service the need for skilled employment if the ruling powers ever decide to make the country liveable for anyone but themselves.

    It is not true to assume brainy emigrants in a Third World country hurt it by leaving. I lived in one for ten years, most of that talent simply gets wasted dealing with an environment of minimal opportunity, graft, nepotism and cultural stupidity.

    If everyone with talent leaves, the situation will never get fixed. And for perpetuity we will forever be dealing with developing nations that never develop.

    Additionally by taking away the most capable up-and-comers, the Western nations remove all social pressure on the ruling elite to change their countries. I imagine the ruling elite like it that their most capable potential competitors leave. No the best course of action is to focus on developing those nations. We can assist them by allowing people to attend our universities and such, but they do need to go back and help develop their own nations. The world can’t remain peaceful if the lion’s share of the population is confined to developing nations that will never develop.

  53. How about almost no immigration for a while? Derbyshire has a helpful exception list.

    Sell this as a quality of life plan for all Americans.. Do you want to help the environment, keep your commute time to work low, allow the recent flood of immigrants assimilate, and give American families a chance to have their own children? It not necessary to manage immigration in terms of human capital. Even with the soundest reasoning, that’s another who-whom trainwreck, coming from the right this time.

    • Replies: @utu

    How about almost no immigration for a while?
     
    Absolutely. Moratorium on immigration should be a part of a political program. I am really surprised that people do not talk about it and do not demand it. They were bamboozled by business into believing in the necessity of immigration.

    This goes in right direction but not far enough

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=3&v=DDjzoyGp7rA
  54. I hope this ‘brain drain’ or neo-colonialism catches on. Taking the best human resources from these nations is akin to taking their natural resources, and it should be viewed as such.

    Additionally brain draining a European nation is really not that bad because Europeans are the worst scum of the Earth. So brain draining them is actually a form of social justice, right?

    • Replies: @Clyde

    Additionally brain draining a European nation is really not that bad because Europeans are the worst scum of the Earth. So brain draining them is actually a form of social justice, right?
     
    They are being ethnically cleansed, not brain drained which is from a sci-fi horror movie. Ethnically self cleansed is more accurate. Ethno-masochistically speaking, that is.
  55. @Ali Choudhury
    They can move to London very easily if they want a bigger, world-class pond to play in that is a 2 hour plane ride from home. Trying to get to the US legally is a bureaucratic drudge. It took Linus Torvalds forever to move to the US and he created Linux!

    See his Congressional testimony on the pain that came with dealing with the INS.

    http://www.techlawjournal.com/employ/20000225tor.htm


    I came to the US just over three years ago on a H-1B visa. An H-1B, of course, is the most common visa for my kind of skilled workforce interested in working in the US.

    Getting the visa was not a huge problem: the company I work for has done the paperwork before, and as my application was at the beginning of the visa year and I come from Western Europe there were no huge lines or visa caps that would have been a problem.

    Coming here, we didn't know what to expect - whether we'd actually like living in the US or not. Having been here three years I can definitely say that we've liked it a lot, and we feel this is home. But it cannot really be home as long as we might be kicked out at any time.

    And that is where the INS experience has broken down. In order to actually be a permanent resident, and what makes you start appreciating the pure bureaucracy of the whole INS experience, you can't just apply for a green card. You start out applying for permission to apply. Once you have petitioned (and been allowed) to actually work here as an immigrant rather than as a temporary worker, you can then actually move on to the exalted status of waiting for your green card application (I-485) to be accepted .... which can take a long time. The official INS notion of action papers said that the I-485 phase is supposed to take half a year. It's been a year and a half now, and the INS hasn't informed me of my status. In the meantime, whenever we want to travel to meet friends and family in Finland, we need to make sure that we have extra travel documents so that we can actually come back to where we live and work.

    Why is this bureaucracy in place? Why does it take nine months to get a drivers license in California if you're out-of-country and the INS has to verify that you're here legally? Why are people left pending, their whole lives on hold while papers get shuffled for years without end?

    In short, the current INS system doesn't work even for the people who have everything going for them. I can only say that I'm happy I'm considered a sure case, because based on my experience with the INS I'd really hate to be in a category that is considered problematic.
     

    Linus, if only you had come to North Carolina under the name of Fausto Carrillo, you could have gotten your driver’s license right away and they would have registered you to vote at the DMV at the same time they issued your license.

    You would have welfare, a WIC card, a section 8 house with cable internet and could be working for yourself from home while not ever having to file an income tax return. Of course you would have had to come in through California, but hopping a bus for Charlotte would have expedited your immigration process dramatically.

  56. @eah
    OT

    'The moral arc of the universe bends toward Serena Williams' (where else?).

    From the BBC (where else?):

    Tennys Sandgren: Serena Williams calls for player to apologise for tweets

    Serena Williams has called for American tennis player Tennys Sandgren to apologise for his controversial tweets...The world number 97 deleted 18 months' worth of tweets after being questioned about his beliefs and denied he was a far-right sympathiser.

    The 23-time Grand Slam winner added: "I can't look at my daughter and tell her I sat back and was quiet. No! she will know how to stand up for herself and others - through my example."

    Cue Donald 'That's a good line' Trump.

    And no, it's not enough that he lost his last match.
  57. @eah
    OT

    'The moral arc of the universe bends toward Serena Williams' (where else?).

    From the BBC (where else?):

    Tennys Sandgren: Serena Williams calls for player to apologise for tweets

    Serena Williams has called for American tennis player Tennys Sandgren to apologise for his controversial tweets...The world number 97 deleted 18 months' worth of tweets after being questioned about his beliefs and denied he was a far-right sympathiser.

    The 23-time Grand Slam winner added: "I can't look at my daughter and tell her I sat back and was quiet. No! she will know how to stand up for herself and others - through my example."

    Cue Donald 'That's a good line' Trump.

    And no, it's not enough that he lost his last match.

    The Donald’s hilarious response to Dick Turban going on how using words “chain migration” disturbs-insults blacks who were brought here in chains.
    https://tinyurl.com/yd3m7skq

  58. @istevefan
    I hope this 'brain drain' or neo-colonialism catches on. Taking the best human resources from these nations is akin to taking their natural resources, and it should be viewed as such.

    Additionally brain draining a European nation is really not that bad because Europeans are the worst scum of the Earth. So brain draining them is actually a form of social justice, right?

    Additionally brain draining a European nation is really not that bad because Europeans are the worst scum of the Earth. So brain draining them is actually a form of social justice, right?

    They are being ethnically cleansed, not brain drained which is from a sci-fi horror movie. Ethnically self cleansed is more accurate. Ethno-masochistically speaking, that is.

  59. You could say something similar about eg the rural vs urban/suburban ‘doctor divide’:

    The $400,000 a Year Small Town Doctor Job That Nobody Wants

    In completely unrelated news:

    Woman Assaulted in Nightclub Goes to the Hospital, Discovers Doctor Is Alleged Assaulter, Gets Beat Up Again

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    I am told by a rural friend (his family owns a John Deere dealership, a gun store and several other businesses) that his community has found that the biggest obstacle to recruiting doctors is that their wives want nothing to do with rural living. The medical opportunity itself is very attractive for some because it's the last place where one doctor can do most everything from basic surgeries to regular family practice to, well, pretty much anything besides open-heart or brain surgery or nuclear medicine.

    The solution is to go against the AMA and make it possible to increase the number of licensed physicians enough that the cushy suburban practices are flooded out. But state pols, especially, won't do this, and voters are not sophisticated enough to make them or replace them with ones that will. State pols fear the medical establishment for many reasons, not the least being the unstated and therefore festering fear that if they severely piss off the medical establishment, something bad will happen to them if they need medical care.
  60. I watched a documentary on Haiti on YouTube recently. During Duvalier’s rule, 80% of its college graduates left the country. They were so desperate to leave some took up residence in French speaking African countries.

    Considering how most objective observers say Haiti is actually worse today than under Duvalier. Human capital deficiencies would appear to be a major cause. Even before the earthquake Haitians were struggling to feed themselves, many forced to eat mud cakes to avoid starving.

    Oh slightly off topic NAACP has sued to stop Trump from cancelling TPS for Haitians. They say he did it due to racism. They filed their case in the Obama stacked district court in Maryland so anything could happen.

    https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/naacp-sues-over-trumps-decision-to-rescind-protected-status-for-haitians

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    Also consider that, even if you do everything right, the average person does not want to be a Haitian doctor anyway. The prevailing attitude prefers chasing money in a strange land to struggling to build your own. There's a line in an Israeli movie pointing up the opposite mindset: a doctor digs ditches and explains to an observer that, right now, his country needs roadbuilders more than it needs one more surgeon, so for the time being he's working a shovel. No Haitian in history has ever thought like that.
  61. @Thomm

    You know, the irony is in 1980, Mexico was much more developed and wealthier than China, and the Philippines used to be the second richest country in Asia behind Japan. Really shows how much Marcos hosed the place.
     
    Oh, it goes further. Asia was the center of the world economy since ancient times until 1800. The recent high growth of China and India is arguably just a reversion to the long-term status quo :

    http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-CkKook7ouRo/U8b-tIlPrgI/AAAAAAAAGv0/GlVdZDTg9nI/s640/20120630_wom941.png

    This is why the IQ argument is really just useful in differentiation blacks from Eurasians (since blacks have NEVER been at parity was Eurasia at any point since 2000 BC), but not really for any divisions more refined than that. One has to ignore any history before 1800 to convince themselves of major differences in civilizational potential between the various Eurasian groups.

    This shows Europe was well ahead of Asia by 1500:

    • Replies: @fnn
    Sorry:
    https://youtu.be/P78Zd8265_k?t=1s
    , @utu
    Keep in mind that Thomm is Asian. Indian actually.
  62. I wonder how much of the growth of Wahabbist radicalism within the Islamic world can be attributed to the region’s most educated, secular, minds (including much of its Christian population) packing their bags and heading west?

    • Replies: @Dmitry

    I wonder how much of the growth of Wahabbist radicalism within the Islamic world can be attributed to the region’s most educated, secular, minds (including much of its Christian population) packing their bags and heading west?
     
    Wahabbism and Islamism in general though, is positively correlated with economic status. This is one of counter-intuitive findings - for example, that suicide bombers on average come from wealthier backgrounds in their community, than non-suicide bombers.
    , @J.Ross
    A major basis for modern Islamic radicalism was Sayyid Qutb observing the West, feeling deep disgust, and writing Milestones, which is a uniquely significant and influential tract about Islamic incompatibility with modernity from the point of view that this incompatibility is good.
    , @Maj. Kong
    Wahabbism arose because the Saudis sit on the largest oil reserves. The decadent monarchy was shaken to its knees by the 1979 revolution in Iran, which had a Pan-Islamic flavor that most don't recognize today. Radicals seized the Grand Mosque of Mecca, so the monarchy made a deal with the "ulema" to allow the use of foreign troops to clear it out.

    The Saudi funded madrassas spread literacy to the young males of the impoverished Islamic countries, for free. Thus, the Taliban.

    Salafists in general seem to be concentrated among middle-class academic types, the poor in the Middle East seem to favor Pan-Arabist socialism.

    Many Middle Eastern petrostates willingly fund their students to study in the West, I doubt they are afraid of brain drain. Cousin marriage is a bigger "brain" problem.
  63. @Ali Choudhury
    Few if any Norwegians would look to emigrate to the US. They have an oil-rich country, virtually free healthcare, get 5 weeks of vacation, generous parental leave when the wife gives birth and the working day is 730 to 330. What normal person would trade that to come to America? The fear of being forced into bankruptcy by medical bills is a major disincentive for those in developed countries to move to the US permanently. It only really makes sense to go if you will be a very high earner and then you are probably earning enough already in Paris, Barcelona, Stockholm etc. to be comfortable enough that additional material rewards won't really tempt you and being away from your family and friends is a wrench you do not need to take. So the incentives to move only really suit the ambitious looking to leave undeveloped countries.

    It is not true to assume brainy emigrants in a Third World country hurt it by leaving. I lived in one for ten years, most of that talent simply gets wasted dealing with an environment of minimal opportunity, graft, nepotism and cultural stupidity. In a developed country they get to develop their skills, their networks and help the old country out far more by sending remittances (like the Filipino diaspora) than by wasting away in an unproductive role. There is always enough talent back home that can service the need for skilled employment if the ruling powers ever decide to make the country liveable for anyone but themselves.

    Oh I think the actual remaining white Norwegians will be looking desperately to get out of their country within a generation, the way it’s going.

    http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2016/01/police_in_oslo_norway_proclaim_oslo_is_lost.html

    “Wow, our great socialized medical system covered my care for my second beatdown by the Muslims down the street. Who would ever leave Norway!”

    • Replies: @Ali Choudhury
    There are usually about 25 murders per year in Norway, a country of 5m per year. In 2015, Norway recorded 23 murders, the lowest total since 1960. The only outlier was 2011 when Anders Breivik, a far-right terrorist killed 77 people.

    In contrast New York City with a population of 8.5m and regarded as the safest big city in the US, recorded 290 murders in 2017. This was the lowest number for decades and prompted lots of back-slapping. A number that high in Europe would have the political class lynched.

    You assume this Third World Muslim horde in Europe will act the same as the American black criminal underclass. That probably explained Ambassador Peter Hoekstra's comments about Muslims in the Netherlands burning politicians alive since he assumed all poor, violent ethnic minorities act alike. When it comes to crime, your citizens are very much in a league of their own.

    Also unlike the US, there has been no hoo-hah about basic enforcement of the law in Norway with an active and rising program of deportation of criminals and illegals and a very beady eye cast at those claiming asylum.

    https://www.thelocal.no/20170123/record-deportation-figures-werent-enough-for-norway

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/11/norway-is-hard-on-migrants-but-tough-love-works/

    [blockquote]When Angela Merkel invited refugees to Germany in 2015, tearing up the rules obliging migrants to seek asylum in the first country they arrive in, the consequences were pretty immediate. Over 160,000 went to Sweden, leading to well-publicised disruption. Next door, things were different. Norway took in just 30,000; this year it has accepted just 2,000 so far. To Sylvi Listhaug, the country’s young immigration minister, this might still be a bit too much.

    ‘We have a big challenge now to integrate those with permission to stay in Norway to make sure they respect Norwegian values,’ she says. ‘Freedom to speak, to write, to believe or not to believe in a god, how to raise your children.’ Also, she says, what not to do. For example: ‘It is not allowed to beat your children in Norway.’[/blockquote]

  64. @fnn
    This shows Europe was well ahead of Asia by 1500:

    Sorry:

  65. @nebulafox
    It'd be more moral, sure, but that's not really the concern of the United States government. Rather, America's priority should be to screw foreign governments before foreign governments screw us. We have our interests, and no one else is going to look out for them.

    We should attract the Iranian physicist who'd otherwise be working on the bomb program in his native country or that Russian computer genius who is interested in making a crypto startup who'd otherwise be working as a hacker for criminal groups back in Russia or that Chinese biotech startup founder who'd otherwise be working for the BGI out in Shenzhen. But the 10 millionth H2B web dev coolie or half-literate campensino illegal who makes another greedy employer more fat with cash? Hell no. America has 350 million people. We have plenty of coders, never mind underemployed teenagers and working class citizens. So, if some spoiled-rotten CEO or employer has to fork out a fair wage to get an American for day-to-day jobs, boo-hoo for him. Hopefully, Trump sees that undermining societal stability isn't worth gaining the admiration of the Norquist crowd, unlike Republicans before him.

    Automation is coming. We will have less jobs in the future, not more. Thus, Japan, South Korea, Singapore, Australia, et all are handling their migration policies as a rule much wiser than Western Europe is, on that and on so many other grounds.

    Automation is coming. We will have less jobs in the future, not more.

    nebulafox:

    This is had become meme that doesn’t hold up well to scrutiny. Yes, in the future, robots will do most of our work. What’s your timeframe here? We have the electronics and software capability to build the robot’s brain but not the devil-in-the-details mechanical expertise to do it.

    If you old enough to remember The Jetsons cartoon show it was filled with wonderful automation gadgets. This show came out in the 1960 during the space race. Apollo 11 was a mechanical engineering masterpiece, the primitive computers were critical to mission’s success, but not the star of the show.

    There are still no practical flying cars and living in space is still sci-fi. Instead, all the smart kids gravitated to electronics, computer science, telecommunications, and more recently, genetics. Mechanical engineering and materials science are not sexy fields of study.

    The Japanese and Koreans are pressing forward on the mechanical side of technology and ahead of us by a decade or so. But still, it’s a very slow process. It may not be amenable to quantum leaps forward like electronics and the like have seen. Your great grandchildren will have fully functional robot servants, your children and grandchildren, not so likely.

    /wetblanket

  66. @Isolee
    I wonder how much of the growth of Wahabbist radicalism within the Islamic world can be attributed to the region's most educated, secular, minds (including much of its Christian population) packing their bags and heading west?

    I wonder how much of the growth of Wahabbist radicalism within the Islamic world can be attributed to the region’s most educated, secular, minds (including much of its Christian population) packing their bags and heading west?

    Wahabbism and Islamism in general though, is positively correlated with economic status. This is one of counter-intuitive findings – for example, that suicide bombers on average come from wealthier backgrounds in their community, than non-suicide bombers.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Radicals of all sorts have generally come from wealthier (at least middle-class) and more educated backgrounds. No doubt this interpretation considerably oversimplifies things, but I take most radicalism (whether overtly religious or not) as a turn towards religion by those who have arisen in a somewhat dereligionized milieu.
  67. @George
    Hey iSteve, Watch out what you wish for.

    Islam in Norway is a minority religion and the second largest religion in Norway after Christianity. Government statistics from the CIA registered 121.095 members of Islamic congregations in Norway, roughly 2.3% of the population, according to a 2011 estimation.[1] The Pew Research Center estimated that 3.7% of Norwegians were Muslim in 2010[2] and 5.7% in 2016.[3]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Norway

    The estimated population of Haitian Muslims is about 3000, representing approximately 0.04 percent of the population, although local Muslims disagree and claim the actual number is near 5000 since inaccessibility or unavailability may exclude Muslims in the count.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Haiti

    5.7% vs 0.05%, choose your poison.

    That didn’t make much sense.

  68. @Isolee
    I wonder how much of the growth of Wahabbist radicalism within the Islamic world can be attributed to the region's most educated, secular, minds (including much of its Christian population) packing their bags and heading west?

    A major basis for modern Islamic radicalism was Sayyid Qutb observing the West, feeling deep disgust, and writing Milestones, which is a uniquely significant and influential tract about Islamic incompatibility with modernity from the point of view that this incompatibility is good.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Has anyone with any sort of sympathy for the broader "dissident right" actually read Qutb and written on him? For that matter, has any serious reader of Qutb ever found favor with anyone who has any sympathies with the dissident right? This could be an interesting project.
    , @Alden
    Was he the one who went to a teachers college in Colorado and wrote a book about how horrible and disgusting it was that the local churches has dances?

    I read that book, can’t remember the title. The town was dry and the college was very strict about curfews, seperate men & women’s dorms no sex or drinking

    But he was still absolutely appalled especially at the minister who had dances at his church.


    Except for the rich S Americans getting MBA degrees, I’ve noticed that foreign students tend to hate America and find nothing good about it.
    , @Anonymous
    The only Westerners I have read commenting much on Qutb have been Christian fundamentalist 'crazies'. I put crazies in quotes because they, like Qutb, are crazy like a fox: there is an internal consistency in their thinking such that if you accept their stated tenets at face value, their prescriptions for proper action make perfect sense.

    If you believe that "human life begins at conception" and that the two celled zygote really is equal to a healthy, functioning, normal adult human in all ways, then shooting abortion providers makes perfect sense, just as if you believe the value of life of a cow or a chicken is fully equal (or in the case of the cow, superior) to the value of the life of a human, blowing up abbatoirs and burger stands is quite justifiable.

    Indeed, if you really and truly believe that there is an eternal place of supreme punishment that all non-devotees of your religion are doomed to go to, the traditional and customary method of True Religion in dealing with heretics and blasphemers is obviously a moral imperative. It comes as no surprise then that the Catholics and the Calvinists (each knowing full well the others were doomed to hellfire, of course) were able to work together to burn Michael Servetius at the stake. If a modern rock star were to wear unborn pony hide as Jim Morrison did, I suspect PETA and the pro-lifers would be able to get together to lynch him on general principles too.
    , @Anonymous
    Is Dreher reading this?
    This comment is dated Jan 25, and on Jan 26 he posts a lengthy discussion of what he has learned from a "bad" writer like Qutb, while "balancing" this by saying he has also learned from "bad" stuff like The Camp of the Saints and Michel Houellebecq.
    http://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/learning-from-bad-books-people/
  69. “to “encourage” the open border intelligentsia in the west to relocate to low capital countries as a capital transfusion.”

    That would work well. Rob Reiner could live in Haiti and wax poetic about how that nation needs only another 100,000 Jews and maybe 500,000 brown Mohammedans to be able to reach Nirvana.

    Or, we could encourage non-wealthy conservative whites to leave America behind for Eastern Europe, where the political leadership still has common sense and is not ashamed to admit to wanting its people to survive genetically.

    The post-Christian Liberal West is suicidal.

  70. Steve Sailer:

    “It would seem like the morally appropriate thing for American immigration policy to do would be to focus on importing fewer high skilled Haitians and more high skilled Norwegians. With Norway number one on the UN’s Human Development Index, the Norwegians can certainly afford to lose more of their skilled people to immigration to America than the Haitians can afford.”

    I have a better suggestion, Sailer: I think the rest of the World should brain-drain America so as to reduce the huge gaps in GDP and GDP per capita between America and the rest of the World. America is #1 in GDP size and #8 in GDP per capita. Now, granted, Norway is one of those few countries with a higher GDP per capita than America, but it is way, way below in GDP size. Why brain-drain a tiny country with a few million people when you can brain-drain a huge continental country with 320 million people? Also, brain-draining America is also more fair, since for the past 30 years America has been brain-draining the World. It’s not even brain-draining America; it’s the World just getting back what belongs to them. The Norwegians never stole intellectual capital from other countries nearly to the degree that America has.

    How about that, Sailer? Why pick on tiny Norway when you have a huge continental country that has been stealing from the rest of the World for 30 years to brain-drain from? That’s more fair.

  71. @George
    Hey iSteve, Watch out what you wish for.

    Islam in Norway is a minority religion and the second largest religion in Norway after Christianity. Government statistics from the CIA registered 121.095 members of Islamic congregations in Norway, roughly 2.3% of the population, according to a 2011 estimation.[1] The Pew Research Center estimated that 3.7% of Norwegians were Muslim in 2010[2] and 5.7% in 2016.[3]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Norway

    The estimated population of Haitian Muslims is about 3000, representing approximately 0.04 percent of the population, although local Muslims disagree and claim the actual number is near 5000 since inaccessibility or unavailability may exclude Muslims in the count.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Haiti

    5.7% vs 0.05%, choose your poison.

    You missed the presupposition (not spelled out here but widely understood) that part of getting rid of self-destructive immigration policy is eliminating this nonsense that anyone can be Norwegian. You also appear to have presupposed that Muslims living in Norway have a sizable number of reasonable and potentially interested candidates for the proposal. Assuming that there is a highly qualified Muslim doctor, wouldn’t having moved to Norway be enough jet lag and culture clash for the guy?

  72. For example, I’ve heard that Guyana in northern South America might be the hardest hit by brain drain to America simply because such a huge fraction of Guyanese have moved to America.

    Guyana has an interesting bipolar population in which about half the population are descendants of indentured Indian laborers, and the other half descendants of African slaves, with a certain percentage of mixed–in fact somewhat similar to nearby Trinidad.

    It would be interesting to know which section is providing the most immigrants to the US.

    I used to have a wonderful Guyanese auto mechanic in Florida, who was of Indian descent. He was a Muslim, but had no time for jihad as he was busy repairing cars.

    • Replies: @prosa123
    NYC has substantial numbers of both black Guyanese and Indo-Guyanese. As I noted on a different thread recently, the Indo-Guyanese tend to be rather uncouth, for lack of a better term, though to be fair they're held to a high standard to the extent they are compared to Indians from India.
    The black Guyanese seem rather low profile.
  73. @Ali Choudhury
    Few if any Norwegians would look to emigrate to the US. They have an oil-rich country, virtually free healthcare, get 5 weeks of vacation, generous parental leave when the wife gives birth and the working day is 730 to 330. What normal person would trade that to come to America? The fear of being forced into bankruptcy by medical bills is a major disincentive for those in developed countries to move to the US permanently. It only really makes sense to go if you will be a very high earner and then you are probably earning enough already in Paris, Barcelona, Stockholm etc. to be comfortable enough that additional material rewards won't really tempt you and being away from your family and friends is a wrench you do not need to take. So the incentives to move only really suit the ambitious looking to leave undeveloped countries.

    It is not true to assume brainy emigrants in a Third World country hurt it by leaving. I lived in one for ten years, most of that talent simply gets wasted dealing with an environment of minimal opportunity, graft, nepotism and cultural stupidity. In a developed country they get to develop their skills, their networks and help the old country out far more by sending remittances (like the Filipino diaspora) than by wasting away in an unproductive role. There is always enough talent back home that can service the need for skilled employment if the ruling powers ever decide to make the country liveable for anyone but themselves.

    Norway is a pretty cold and often dark place; reason enough to leave…

  74. @Dmitry

    I wonder how much of the growth of Wahabbist radicalism within the Islamic world can be attributed to the region’s most educated, secular, minds (including much of its Christian population) packing their bags and heading west?
     
    Wahabbism and Islamism in general though, is positively correlated with economic status. This is one of counter-intuitive findings - for example, that suicide bombers on average come from wealthier backgrounds in their community, than non-suicide bombers.

    Radicals of all sorts have generally come from wealthier (at least middle-class) and more educated backgrounds. No doubt this interpretation considerably oversimplifies things, but I take most radicalism (whether overtly religious or not) as a turn towards religion by those who have arisen in a somewhat dereligionized milieu.

  75. @Jonathan Mason

    For example, I’ve heard that Guyana in northern South America might be the hardest hit by brain drain to America simply because such a huge fraction of Guyanese have moved to America.
     
    Guyana has an interesting bipolar population in which about half the population are descendants of indentured Indian laborers, and the other half descendants of African slaves, with a certain percentage of mixed--in fact somewhat similar to nearby Trinidad.

    It would be interesting to know which section is providing the most immigrants to the US.

    I used to have a wonderful Guyanese auto mechanic in Florida, who was of Indian descent. He was a Muslim, but had no time for jihad as he was busy repairing cars.

    NYC has substantial numbers of both black Guyanese and Indo-Guyanese. As I noted on a different thread recently, the Indo-Guyanese tend to be rather uncouth, for lack of a better term, though to be fair they’re held to a high standard to the extent they are compared to Indians from India.
    The black Guyanese seem rather low profile.

  76. @J.Ross
    A major basis for modern Islamic radicalism was Sayyid Qutb observing the West, feeling deep disgust, and writing Milestones, which is a uniquely significant and influential tract about Islamic incompatibility with modernity from the point of view that this incompatibility is good.

    Has anyone with any sort of sympathy for the broader “dissident right” actually read Qutb and written on him? For that matter, has any serious reader of Qutb ever found favor with anyone who has any sympathies with the dissident right? This could be an interesting project.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    The First Text on Islam (for non-Muslims) is Catastrophic Failure by Stephen Coughlin. Read this book before going any further. It is the most solidly argued nonfiction book I have ever read. It is not exactly what you describe but pretty much. I read it after taking nearly every Islamic course at a college with a huge Muslim population and very good professors, and I'd prefer Catastrophic Failure any day of the week. You cannot further without Coughlin because
    Islam has a consistent system (sects have no meaning here, the system applies to all of Islam and the sects are effectively local political disputes within the same larger ideological framework).
    This system is largely secret or deliberately mis-explained.
    Nothing Islamic makes any sense until you get this system; once you get it their actions make perfect sense.
    Coughin explains it so clearly, with so many citations, and so true to what you have seen and will see, that there's no going back.
    But one of the things he points out are the totally unambiguous messages available in English at mosque bookstores, like Qutb, or tafsirs endorsing slavery and terrorism. There's no such thing as mysterious unexplained radicalization following ray blasts from a UFO. It's all very simple. There's not more terrorists because there doesn't need to be. They move very carefully, one step at a time, always conscious of their numbers in a given setting.
  77. @Thomm

    You know, the irony is in 1980, Mexico was much more developed and wealthier than China, and the Philippines used to be the second richest country in Asia behind Japan. Really shows how much Marcos hosed the place.
     
    Oh, it goes further. Asia was the center of the world economy since ancient times until 1800. The recent high growth of China and India is arguably just a reversion to the long-term status quo :

    http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-CkKook7ouRo/U8b-tIlPrgI/AAAAAAAAGv0/GlVdZDTg9nI/s640/20120630_wom941.png

    This is why the IQ argument is really just useful in differentiation blacks from Eurasians (since blacks have NEVER been at parity was Eurasia at any point since 2000 BC), but not really for any divisions more refined than that. One has to ignore any history before 1800 to convince themselves of major differences in civilizational potential between the various Eurasian groups.

    I wouldn’t say that. Greeks and Romans had vastly superior art, than anything outside Europe, for one thing.

    1800 is rather too late besides. It ignores the Renaissance, Shakespeare, as well as the development of many of the fundamental economic ideas that later transformed the world. Adam Smith noted the potential of India and China, but they didn’t develop his ideas. The Space Race was presaged by Newton, Descartes and many others.

    Most of the world is still in Europe’s shadow and that includes most of the world outside of SSA. And that’s only becoming clearer as large numbers settle in Europe and debunk the idea of magic dirt.

  78. @Ed
    I watched a documentary on Haiti on YouTube recently. During Duvalier’s rule, 80% of its college graduates left the country. They were so desperate to leave some took up residence in French speaking African countries.

    Considering how most objective observers say Haiti is actually worse today than under Duvalier. Human capital deficiencies would appear to be a major cause. Even before the earthquake Haitians were struggling to feed themselves, many forced to eat mud cakes to avoid starving.

    Oh slightly off topic NAACP has sued to stop Trump from cancelling TPS for Haitians. They say he did it due to racism. They filed their case in the Obama stacked district court in Maryland so anything could happen.

    https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/naacp-sues-over-trumps-decision-to-rescind-protected-status-for-haitians

    Also consider that, even if you do everything right, the average person does not want to be a Haitian doctor anyway. The prevailing attitude prefers chasing money in a strange land to struggling to build your own. There’s a line in an Israeli movie pointing up the opposite mindset: a doctor digs ditches and explains to an observer that, right now, his country needs roadbuilders more than it needs one more surgeon, so for the time being he’s working a shovel. No Haitian in history has ever thought like that.

    • Replies: @Ed
    Not just Haiti but this mindset is also very prevelant in Africa especially in the more successful countries. The young people glamour for college degrees while there aren’t any jobs but refuse to work in their parents farms. In countries like Ghana this is becoming a major issue as there aren’t people to take over from previous generation. The thing is agriculture is crucial to any country, a foundation not degrees in communication and sociology.


    https://amp.ft.com/content/d9cb0d1c-26e7-11e5-bd83-71cb60e8f08c
  79. @RadicalCenter
    Oh I think the actual remaining white Norwegians will be looking desperately to get out of their country within a generation, the way it’s going.

    http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2016/01/police_in_oslo_norway_proclaim_oslo_is_lost.html

    “Wow, our great socialized medical system covered my care for my second beatdown by the Muslims down the street. Who would ever leave Norway!”

    There are usually about 25 murders per year in Norway, a country of 5m per year. In 2015, Norway recorded 23 murders, the lowest total since 1960. The only outlier was 2011 when Anders Breivik, a far-right terrorist killed 77 people.

    In contrast New York City with a population of 8.5m and regarded as the safest big city in the US, recorded 290 murders in 2017. This was the lowest number for decades and prompted lots of back-slapping. A number that high in Europe would have the political class lynched.

    You assume this Third World Muslim horde in Europe will act the same as the American black criminal underclass. That probably explained Ambassador Peter Hoekstra’s comments about Muslims in the Netherlands burning politicians alive since he assumed all poor, violent ethnic minorities act alike. When it comes to crime, your citizens are very much in a league of their own.

    Also unlike the US, there has been no hoo-hah about basic enforcement of the law in Norway with an active and rising program of deportation of criminals and illegals and a very beady eye cast at those claiming asylum.

    https://www.thelocal.no/20170123/record-deportation-figures-werent-enough-for-norway

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/11/norway-is-hard-on-migrants-but-tough-love-works/

    [blockquote]When Angela Merkel invited refugees to Germany in 2015, tearing up the rules obliging migrants to seek asylum in the first country they arrive in, the consequences were pretty immediate. Over 160,000 went to Sweden, leading to well-publicised disruption. Next door, things were different. Norway took in just 30,000; this year it has accepted just 2,000 so far. To Sylvi Listhaug, the country’s young immigration minister, this might still be a bit too much.

    ‘We have a big challenge now to integrate those with permission to stay in Norway to make sure they respect Norwegian values,’ she says. ‘Freedom to speak, to write, to believe or not to believe in a god, how to raise your children.’ Also, she says, what not to do. For example: ‘It is not allowed to beat your children in Norway.’[/blockquote]

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    >assumed
    Or, y'know, confused Norway with the country next door, where Muslims will burn you alive and get away with it.
    , @Hippopotamusdrome


    The only outlier was 2011 when Anders Breivik, a far-right terrorist killed 77 people.
    ...
    Next door, things were different. Norway took in just 30,000; this year it has accepted just 2,000 so far. To Sylvi Listhaug, the country’s young immigration minister, this might still be a bit too much.

     

    Is there a possibility of a connection between the two?
  80. @Ali Choudhury
    There are usually about 25 murders per year in Norway, a country of 5m per year. In 2015, Norway recorded 23 murders, the lowest total since 1960. The only outlier was 2011 when Anders Breivik, a far-right terrorist killed 77 people.

    In contrast New York City with a population of 8.5m and regarded as the safest big city in the US, recorded 290 murders in 2017. This was the lowest number for decades and prompted lots of back-slapping. A number that high in Europe would have the political class lynched.

    You assume this Third World Muslim horde in Europe will act the same as the American black criminal underclass. That probably explained Ambassador Peter Hoekstra's comments about Muslims in the Netherlands burning politicians alive since he assumed all poor, violent ethnic minorities act alike. When it comes to crime, your citizens are very much in a league of their own.

    Also unlike the US, there has been no hoo-hah about basic enforcement of the law in Norway with an active and rising program of deportation of criminals and illegals and a very beady eye cast at those claiming asylum.

    https://www.thelocal.no/20170123/record-deportation-figures-werent-enough-for-norway

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/11/norway-is-hard-on-migrants-but-tough-love-works/

    [blockquote]When Angela Merkel invited refugees to Germany in 2015, tearing up the rules obliging migrants to seek asylum in the first country they arrive in, the consequences were pretty immediate. Over 160,000 went to Sweden, leading to well-publicised disruption. Next door, things were different. Norway took in just 30,000; this year it has accepted just 2,000 so far. To Sylvi Listhaug, the country’s young immigration minister, this might still be a bit too much.

    ‘We have a big challenge now to integrate those with permission to stay in Norway to make sure they respect Norwegian values,’ she says. ‘Freedom to speak, to write, to believe or not to believe in a god, how to raise your children.’ Also, she says, what not to do. For example: ‘It is not allowed to beat your children in Norway.’[/blockquote]

    >assumed
    Or, y’know, confused Norway with the country next door, where Muslims will burn you alive and get away with it.

  81. @Anonymous
    Has anyone with any sort of sympathy for the broader "dissident right" actually read Qutb and written on him? For that matter, has any serious reader of Qutb ever found favor with anyone who has any sympathies with the dissident right? This could be an interesting project.

    The First Text on Islam (for non-Muslims) is Catastrophic Failure by Stephen Coughlin. Read this book before going any further. It is the most solidly argued nonfiction book I have ever read. It is not exactly what you describe but pretty much. I read it after taking nearly every Islamic course at a college with a huge Muslim population and very good professors, and I’d prefer Catastrophic Failure any day of the week. You cannot further without Coughlin because
    Islam has a consistent system (sects have no meaning here, the system applies to all of Islam and the sects are effectively local political disputes within the same larger ideological framework).
    This system is largely secret or deliberately mis-explained.
    Nothing Islamic makes any sense until you get this system; once you get it their actions make perfect sense.
    Coughin explains it so clearly, with so many citations, and so true to what you have seen and will see, that there’s no going back.
    But one of the things he points out are the totally unambiguous messages available in English at mosque bookstores, like Qutb, or tafsirs endorsing slavery and terrorism. There’s no such thing as mysterious unexplained radicalization following ray blasts from a UFO. It’s all very simple. There’s not more terrorists because there doesn’t need to be. They move very carefully, one step at a time, always conscious of their numbers in a given setting.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Great cite. I'm going to read this.
    , @utu

    This system is largely secret or deliberately mis-explained.
     
    Interesting. Will check it out. Do you have any suggestions on Judaism as well?
  82. @George
    Hey iSteve, Watch out what you wish for.

    Islam in Norway is a minority religion and the second largest religion in Norway after Christianity. Government statistics from the CIA registered 121.095 members of Islamic congregations in Norway, roughly 2.3% of the population, according to a 2011 estimation.[1] The Pew Research Center estimated that 3.7% of Norwegians were Muslim in 2010[2] and 5.7% in 2016.[3]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Norway

    The estimated population of Haitian Muslims is about 3000, representing approximately 0.04 percent of the population, although local Muslims disagree and claim the actual number is near 5000 since inaccessibility or unavailability may exclude Muslims in the count.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Haiti

    5.7% vs 0.05%, choose your poison.

    Haitians, Muslims. Brown is brown.

  83. In contrast New York City with a population of 8.5m and regarded as the safest big city in the US, recorded 290 murders in 2017. This was the lowest number for decades and prompted lots of back-slapping. A number that high in Europe would have the political class lynched.

    The White homicide rate in New York City is only slightly higher than that of Norway, on par with the homicide rate of Switzerland or South Korea.

    When it comes to crime, your citizens are very much in a league of their own.

    This is somewhat inaccurate. Blacks in America have a lower homicide rate than the homicide rate in Sub-Saharan Africa and Latinos in America have much lower homicide rates than Mexico and Central America. American Whites; however, have a much higher homicide rate than that of Western Europe.

    • Replies: @Corn
    “The White homicide rate in New York City is only slightly higher than that of Norway, on par with the homicide rate of Switzerland or South Korea.



    This is somewhat inaccurate. Blacks in America have a lower homicide rate than the homicide rate in Sub-Saharan Africa and Latinos in America have much lower homicide rates than Mexico and Central America. American Whites; however, have a much higher homicide rate than that of Western Europe.”

    Michael Lind wrote once if you waved a magic wand and made America’s blacks and Hispanics disappear, America was basically western Europe in terms of violent crime rates. He then said if you waved the wand a second time and made white Southerners disappear, the US was basically Japan in terms of crime.
  84. @J.Ross
    A major basis for modern Islamic radicalism was Sayyid Qutb observing the West, feeling deep disgust, and writing Milestones, which is a uniquely significant and influential tract about Islamic incompatibility with modernity from the point of view that this incompatibility is good.

    Was he the one who went to a teachers college in Colorado and wrote a book about how horrible and disgusting it was that the local churches has dances?

    I read that book, can’t remember the title. The town was dry and the college was very strict about curfews, seperate men & women’s dorms no sex or drinking

    But he was still absolutely appalled especially at the minister who had dances at his church.

    Except for the rich S Americans getting MBA degrees, I’ve noticed that foreign students tend to hate America and find nothing good about it.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Plenty of ordinary Americans, and right wing Europeans like Germans thought the America of that time was decadent and sexually and morally degenerate, even though that seems strange to us today.

    Qutb has some great quotes:

    https://lightforlearner.wordpress.com/2012/10/20/sayyid-qutb-the-america-i-have-seen/

    The American is primitive in his artistic taste, both in what he enjoys as art and in his own artistic works. “Jazz” music is his music of choice. This is that music that the Negroes invented to satisfy their primitive inclinations, as well as their desire to be noisy on the one hand and to excite bestial tendencies on the other. The American’s intoxication in “jazz” music does not reach its full completion until the music is accompanied by singing that is just as coarse and obnoxious as the music itself. Meanwhile, the noise of the instruments and the voices mounts, and it rings in the ears to an unbearable degree… The agitation of the multitude[2] increases, and the voices of approval mount, and their palms ring out in vehement, continuous applause that all but deafens the ears.
     
    , @J.Ross
    Sounds right. He was highly intelligent and educated, and his intellectual worldview was very solidly put together, but he was perpendicular to everything we take for granted. A nice cold antidote to Thomas Friedman's uneducated credulity.
    , @Numinous

    Except for the rich S Americans getting MBA degrees, I’ve noticed that foreign students tend to hate America and find nothing good about it.
     
    You can't have met many foreign students if you think that.
  85. @Isolee
    I wonder how much of the growth of Wahabbist radicalism within the Islamic world can be attributed to the region's most educated, secular, minds (including much of its Christian population) packing their bags and heading west?

    Wahabbism arose because the Saudis sit on the largest oil reserves. The decadent monarchy was shaken to its knees by the 1979 revolution in Iran, which had a Pan-Islamic flavor that most don’t recognize today. Radicals seized the Grand Mosque of Mecca, so the monarchy made a deal with the “ulema” to allow the use of foreign troops to clear it out.

    The Saudi funded madrassas spread literacy to the young males of the impoverished Islamic countries, for free. Thus, the Taliban.

    Salafists in general seem to be concentrated among middle-class academic types, the poor in the Middle East seem to favor Pan-Arabist socialism.

    Many Middle Eastern petrostates willingly fund their students to study in the West, I doubt they are afraid of brain drain. Cousin marriage is a bigger “brain” problem.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    Wahhabism as we have been lead to understand it isn't real. "The consensus of all the scholars" (which is the semi-meritocratic, pseudo-democratic "pope" of Islam) holds that Wahhab was wrong. Well-meaning but wrong. ISIS cites non-Wahhabite scholars in their public statements to show that they are mainstream, and because if they cited Wahhabites nobody but MEMRI and Debka would read them. This notion of a freak, detachable, one-off deviation that came out of nowhere is just like the "radicalization" idea. Both ideas just happen to locate a basis of terrorism far away from the Prophet. The better term -- broader, but better for that - is Salafist. Then again you could just say Muslim.
  86. @Ali Choudhury
    There are usually about 25 murders per year in Norway, a country of 5m per year. In 2015, Norway recorded 23 murders, the lowest total since 1960. The only outlier was 2011 when Anders Breivik, a far-right terrorist killed 77 people.

    In contrast New York City with a population of 8.5m and regarded as the safest big city in the US, recorded 290 murders in 2017. This was the lowest number for decades and prompted lots of back-slapping. A number that high in Europe would have the political class lynched.

    You assume this Third World Muslim horde in Europe will act the same as the American black criminal underclass. That probably explained Ambassador Peter Hoekstra's comments about Muslims in the Netherlands burning politicians alive since he assumed all poor, violent ethnic minorities act alike. When it comes to crime, your citizens are very much in a league of their own.

    Also unlike the US, there has been no hoo-hah about basic enforcement of the law in Norway with an active and rising program of deportation of criminals and illegals and a very beady eye cast at those claiming asylum.

    https://www.thelocal.no/20170123/record-deportation-figures-werent-enough-for-norway

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/11/norway-is-hard-on-migrants-but-tough-love-works/

    [blockquote]When Angela Merkel invited refugees to Germany in 2015, tearing up the rules obliging migrants to seek asylum in the first country they arrive in, the consequences were pretty immediate. Over 160,000 went to Sweden, leading to well-publicised disruption. Next door, things were different. Norway took in just 30,000; this year it has accepted just 2,000 so far. To Sylvi Listhaug, the country’s young immigration minister, this might still be a bit too much.

    ‘We have a big challenge now to integrate those with permission to stay in Norway to make sure they respect Norwegian values,’ she says. ‘Freedom to speak, to write, to believe or not to believe in a god, how to raise your children.’ Also, she says, what not to do. For example: ‘It is not allowed to beat your children in Norway.’[/blockquote]

    The only outlier was 2011 when Anders Breivik, a far-right terrorist killed 77 people.

    Next door, things were different. Norway took in just 30,000; this year it has accepted just 2,000 so far. To Sylvi Listhaug, the country’s young immigration minister, this might still be a bit too much.

    Is there a possibility of a connection between the two?

  87. @PiltdownMan

    Domestic consumption isn’t typically how developing countries get rich. The ones that get rich do so via export-led growth. Domestic consumption comes later.
     
    True. But remittances, which can amount to billions of dollars annually, can make a significant difference to the pool of development capital available for investment export oriented small industry. This is true, especially if the recipient country economy is relatively small, such as Burma, or the Philippines. It was true, even for the relatively huge, autarkic Chinese economy of the late 1980s, which had few foreign exchange reserves, and almost no personal savings. The remittances helped spark small-scale industry in some urban centres until the early 1990s.

    It could be the sort of thing that’s beneficial in certain countries up to a certain point of development, but detrimental after.

  88. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @eah
    You could say something similar about eg the rural vs urban/suburban 'doctor divide':

    The $400,000 a Year Small Town Doctor Job That Nobody Wants

    In completely unrelated news:

    Woman Assaulted in Nightclub Goes to the Hospital, Discovers Doctor Is Alleged Assaulter, Gets Beat Up Again

    I am told by a rural friend (his family owns a John Deere dealership, a gun store and several other businesses) that his community has found that the biggest obstacle to recruiting doctors is that their wives want nothing to do with rural living. The medical opportunity itself is very attractive for some because it’s the last place where one doctor can do most everything from basic surgeries to regular family practice to, well, pretty much anything besides open-heart or brain surgery or nuclear medicine.

    The solution is to go against the AMA and make it possible to increase the number of licensed physicians enough that the cushy suburban practices are flooded out. But state pols, especially, won’t do this, and voters are not sophisticated enough to make them or replace them with ones that will. State pols fear the medical establishment for many reasons, not the least being the unstated and therefore festering fear that if they severely piss off the medical establishment, something bad will happen to them if they need medical care.

  89. @International Jew
    The numbers in that graph seem implausible in many cases, especially Somalia's. 40% of Somali emigrants are "high skilled"?? High skilled at what? Maybe at misrepresenting themselves.

    The numbers in that graph seem implausible in many cases, especially Somalia’s. 40% of Somali emigrants are “high skilled”?

    Agreed. I spend most of my time in Southeast Asia – that produces infinitely more skilled people than Somalia – yet headhunters describe the average degree certificate here as equivalent to a school leaving certificate in Scandinavia.

    (This is not true across the board because most countries manage to ring-fence certain technical subjects and clearly a place like Singapore is superior.)

    Note also that the British medical authorities have admitted that most foreign trained doctors would fail British medical exams. There are many other examples.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    The last time I was in the UK, I met a British surgeon in private practice who had trained in Germany and introduced himself to all and sundry as a "German-trained surgeon".

    I learned also that in the UK, a regular doctor is addressed as Doctor, but a surgeon is addressed as Mr. (or if female, regardless of marital status, as Miss). They are very proud of this.
  90. @J.Ross
    The First Text on Islam (for non-Muslims) is Catastrophic Failure by Stephen Coughlin. Read this book before going any further. It is the most solidly argued nonfiction book I have ever read. It is not exactly what you describe but pretty much. I read it after taking nearly every Islamic course at a college with a huge Muslim population and very good professors, and I'd prefer Catastrophic Failure any day of the week. You cannot further without Coughlin because
    Islam has a consistent system (sects have no meaning here, the system applies to all of Islam and the sects are effectively local political disputes within the same larger ideological framework).
    This system is largely secret or deliberately mis-explained.
    Nothing Islamic makes any sense until you get this system; once you get it their actions make perfect sense.
    Coughin explains it so clearly, with so many citations, and so true to what you have seen and will see, that there's no going back.
    But one of the things he points out are the totally unambiguous messages available in English at mosque bookstores, like Qutb, or tafsirs endorsing slavery and terrorism. There's no such thing as mysterious unexplained radicalization following ray blasts from a UFO. It's all very simple. There's not more terrorists because there doesn't need to be. They move very carefully, one step at a time, always conscious of their numbers in a given setting.

    Great cite. I’m going to read this.

  91. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @J.Ross
    A major basis for modern Islamic radicalism was Sayyid Qutb observing the West, feeling deep disgust, and writing Milestones, which is a uniquely significant and influential tract about Islamic incompatibility with modernity from the point of view that this incompatibility is good.

    The only Westerners I have read commenting much on Qutb have been Christian fundamentalist ‘crazies’. I put crazies in quotes because they, like Qutb, are crazy like a fox: there is an internal consistency in their thinking such that if you accept their stated tenets at face value, their prescriptions for proper action make perfect sense.

    If you believe that “human life begins at conception” and that the two celled zygote really is equal to a healthy, functioning, normal adult human in all ways, then shooting abortion providers makes perfect sense, just as if you believe the value of life of a cow or a chicken is fully equal (or in the case of the cow, superior) to the value of the life of a human, blowing up abbatoirs and burger stands is quite justifiable.

    Indeed, if you really and truly believe that there is an eternal place of supreme punishment that all non-devotees of your religion are doomed to go to, the traditional and customary method of True Religion in dealing with heretics and blasphemers is obviously a moral imperative. It comes as no surprise then that the Catholics and the Calvinists (each knowing full well the others were doomed to hellfire, of course) were able to work together to burn Michael Servetius at the stake. If a modern rock star were to wear unborn pony hide as Jim Morrison did, I suspect PETA and the pro-lifers would be able to get together to lynch him on general principles too.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    I also initially rejected "Islamophobia" because all the sources I saw were lying Zionists (like MEMRI, which lies all the time and once tried to wriggle out of the accusation by claiming that Arabic grammar and word order is like that of English[!]) and snake-handlers under the impression that Zionists never lie.
    Thing is, Muslims lie too. In fact their lies work the same way because all this stuff comes from the same ugly origin of bitter tribal competition in the same region. If you read Coughlin -- who is not an evangelizer, and is wonderfully dispassionate -- you'll be better off and you will not have joined a religion. The book is thick but Coughlin has several lectures you can nibble on at YouTube. The book grew out of Coughlin's "red pill lecture" at the Pentagon, which was axed by a certain unnamed black president, who proceeded to hire into the government bureaucrats who allowed themselves to be photographed proudly making the four finger salute of the Ikhwan, so, yeah, I'm sure that's not anything we should be scared about.
    , @Anonymous
    The Servetus case was interesting. The biblical basis for the Trinity is thin. The doctrine appears to have been a bureaucratic compromise adopted by the early Christians to reconcile disparate traditions within their movement. Calvin, as a 'sola scriptura' Protestant, got into trouble as a young man for questioning the Trinity on these grounds. He remained cautious of the issue ever after. He could not afford to be tolerant of Servetus lest his own unsoundness on this question be brought back into focus.
  92. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Bill B.

    The numbers in that graph seem implausible in many cases, especially Somalia’s. 40% of Somali emigrants are “high skilled”?
     
    Agreed. I spend most of my time in Southeast Asia - that produces infinitely more skilled people than Somalia - yet headhunters describe the average degree certificate here as equivalent to a school leaving certificate in Scandinavia.

    (This is not true across the board because most countries manage to ring-fence certain technical subjects and clearly a place like Singapore is superior.)

    Note also that the British medical authorities have admitted that most foreign trained doctors would fail British medical exams. There are many other examples.

    The last time I was in the UK, I met a British surgeon in private practice who had trained in Germany and introduced himself to all and sundry as a “German-trained surgeon”.

    I learned also that in the UK, a regular doctor is addressed as Doctor, but a surgeon is addressed as Mr. (or if female, regardless of marital status, as Miss). They are very proud of this.

  93. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Apart from the very dubious data in the original file (=way too high absolute number of high skill immigrants from shithole countries), the actual numbers for 2010 in it do not at all support the contention.

    Haiti immigrants to the USA, males:
    212064 – total
    93734 – high skill
    Haiti immigrants to the USA, females:
    251330 – total
    95748 – high skill

    Or 41% of total being “high skill” – a far cry from the ~ 78% that the graph shows.

    There are many countries in the file in separate sheets, and while it is possible that all high skilled immigrants from Haiti go to a single country, a look at the common suspects (Spain, France, Sweden, Germany) shows much small absolutes and smaller percentages than to the USA.

  94. @Maj. Kong
    Wahabbism arose because the Saudis sit on the largest oil reserves. The decadent monarchy was shaken to its knees by the 1979 revolution in Iran, which had a Pan-Islamic flavor that most don't recognize today. Radicals seized the Grand Mosque of Mecca, so the monarchy made a deal with the "ulema" to allow the use of foreign troops to clear it out.

    The Saudi funded madrassas spread literacy to the young males of the impoverished Islamic countries, for free. Thus, the Taliban.

    Salafists in general seem to be concentrated among middle-class academic types, the poor in the Middle East seem to favor Pan-Arabist socialism.

    Many Middle Eastern petrostates willingly fund their students to study in the West, I doubt they are afraid of brain drain. Cousin marriage is a bigger "brain" problem.

    Wahhabism as we have been lead to understand it isn’t real. “The consensus of all the scholars” (which is the semi-meritocratic, pseudo-democratic “pope” of Islam) holds that Wahhab was wrong. Well-meaning but wrong. ISIS cites non-Wahhabite scholars in their public statements to show that they are mainstream, and because if they cited Wahhabites nobody but MEMRI and Debka would read them. This notion of a freak, detachable, one-off deviation that came out of nowhere is just like the “radicalization” idea. Both ideas just happen to locate a basis of terrorism far away from the Prophet. The better term — broader, but better for that – is Salafist. Then again you could just say Muslim.

  95. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Alden
    Was he the one who went to a teachers college in Colorado and wrote a book about how horrible and disgusting it was that the local churches has dances?

    I read that book, can’t remember the title. The town was dry and the college was very strict about curfews, seperate men & women’s dorms no sex or drinking

    But he was still absolutely appalled especially at the minister who had dances at his church.


    Except for the rich S Americans getting MBA degrees, I’ve noticed that foreign students tend to hate America and find nothing good about it.

    Plenty of ordinary Americans, and right wing Europeans like Germans thought the America of that time was decadent and sexually and morally degenerate, even though that seems strange to us today.

    Qutb has some great quotes:

    https://lightforlearner.wordpress.com/2012/10/20/sayyid-qutb-the-america-i-have-seen/

    The American is primitive in his artistic taste, both in what he enjoys as art and in his own artistic works. “Jazz” music is his music of choice. This is that music that the Negroes invented to satisfy their primitive inclinations, as well as their desire to be noisy on the one hand and to excite bestial tendencies on the other. The American’s intoxication in “jazz” music does not reach its full completion until the music is accompanied by singing that is just as coarse and obnoxious as the music itself. Meanwhile, the noise of the instruments and the voices mounts, and it rings in the ears to an unbearable degree… The agitation of the multitude[2] increases, and the voices of approval mount, and their palms ring out in vehement, continuous applause that all but deafens the ears.

  96. @Anonymous
    The only Westerners I have read commenting much on Qutb have been Christian fundamentalist 'crazies'. I put crazies in quotes because they, like Qutb, are crazy like a fox: there is an internal consistency in their thinking such that if you accept their stated tenets at face value, their prescriptions for proper action make perfect sense.

    If you believe that "human life begins at conception" and that the two celled zygote really is equal to a healthy, functioning, normal adult human in all ways, then shooting abortion providers makes perfect sense, just as if you believe the value of life of a cow or a chicken is fully equal (or in the case of the cow, superior) to the value of the life of a human, blowing up abbatoirs and burger stands is quite justifiable.

    Indeed, if you really and truly believe that there is an eternal place of supreme punishment that all non-devotees of your religion are doomed to go to, the traditional and customary method of True Religion in dealing with heretics and blasphemers is obviously a moral imperative. It comes as no surprise then that the Catholics and the Calvinists (each knowing full well the others were doomed to hellfire, of course) were able to work together to burn Michael Servetius at the stake. If a modern rock star were to wear unborn pony hide as Jim Morrison did, I suspect PETA and the pro-lifers would be able to get together to lynch him on general principles too.

    I also initially rejected “Islamophobia” because all the sources I saw were lying Zionists (like MEMRI, which lies all the time and once tried to wriggle out of the accusation by claiming that Arabic grammar and word order is like that of English[!]) and snake-handlers under the impression that Zionists never lie.
    Thing is, Muslims lie too. In fact their lies work the same way because all this stuff comes from the same ugly origin of bitter tribal competition in the same region. If you read Coughlin — who is not an evangelizer, and is wonderfully dispassionate — you’ll be better off and you will not have joined a religion. The book is thick but Coughlin has several lectures you can nibble on at YouTube. The book grew out of Coughlin’s “red pill lecture” at the Pentagon, which was axed by a certain unnamed black president, who proceeded to hire into the government bureaucrats who allowed themselves to be photographed proudly making the four finger salute of the Ikhwan, so, yeah, I’m sure that’s not anything we should be scared about.

  97. @Alden
    Was he the one who went to a teachers college in Colorado and wrote a book about how horrible and disgusting it was that the local churches has dances?

    I read that book, can’t remember the title. The town was dry and the college was very strict about curfews, seperate men & women’s dorms no sex or drinking

    But he was still absolutely appalled especially at the minister who had dances at his church.


    Except for the rich S Americans getting MBA degrees, I’ve noticed that foreign students tend to hate America and find nothing good about it.

    Sounds right. He was highly intelligent and educated, and his intellectual worldview was very solidly put together, but he was perpendicular to everything we take for granted. A nice cold antidote to Thomas Friedman’s uneducated credulity.

  98. @Ali Choudhury
    No, he created Linux before he came to the US. It was known news in tech circles in the late 90s that he was looking to move to America for work and despite his profile his visa application was taking forever to get approved. If you want to work in the EU as an EU citizen you hop on a plane and can start straight away.

    Perhaps Microsoft was sabotaging his application for visa.

    • Replies: @Ali Choudhury
    LOL.
  99. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous
    The only Westerners I have read commenting much on Qutb have been Christian fundamentalist 'crazies'. I put crazies in quotes because they, like Qutb, are crazy like a fox: there is an internal consistency in their thinking such that if you accept their stated tenets at face value, their prescriptions for proper action make perfect sense.

    If you believe that "human life begins at conception" and that the two celled zygote really is equal to a healthy, functioning, normal adult human in all ways, then shooting abortion providers makes perfect sense, just as if you believe the value of life of a cow or a chicken is fully equal (or in the case of the cow, superior) to the value of the life of a human, blowing up abbatoirs and burger stands is quite justifiable.

    Indeed, if you really and truly believe that there is an eternal place of supreme punishment that all non-devotees of your religion are doomed to go to, the traditional and customary method of True Religion in dealing with heretics and blasphemers is obviously a moral imperative. It comes as no surprise then that the Catholics and the Calvinists (each knowing full well the others were doomed to hellfire, of course) were able to work together to burn Michael Servetius at the stake. If a modern rock star were to wear unborn pony hide as Jim Morrison did, I suspect PETA and the pro-lifers would be able to get together to lynch him on general principles too.

    The Servetus case was interesting. The biblical basis for the Trinity is thin. The doctrine appears to have been a bureaucratic compromise adopted by the early Christians to reconcile disparate traditions within their movement. Calvin, as a ‘sola scriptura’ Protestant, got into trouble as a young man for questioning the Trinity on these grounds. He remained cautious of the issue ever after. He could not afford to be tolerant of Servetus lest his own unsoundness on this question be brought back into focus.

  100. @jJay
    How about almost no immigration for a while? Derbyshire has a helpful exception list.

    Sell this as a quality of life plan for all Americans.. Do you want to help the environment, keep your commute time to work low, allow the recent flood of immigrants assimilate, and give American families a chance to have their own children? It not necessary to manage immigration in terms of human capital. Even with the soundest reasoning, that's another who-whom trainwreck, coming from the right this time.

    How about almost no immigration for a while?

    Absolutely. Moratorium on immigration should be a part of a political program. I am really surprised that people do not talk about it and do not demand it. They were bamboozled by business into believing in the necessity of immigration.

    This goes in right direction but not far enough

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=3&v=DDjzoyGp7rA

  101. @fnn
    This shows Europe was well ahead of Asia by 1500:

    Keep in mind that Thomm is Asian. Indian actually.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    You don't know this. Evidence?
  102. The rational solution to the problem of international inequality, which is driven by human capital inequality, is to “encourage” the open border intelligentsia in the west to relocate to low capital countries as a capital transfusion. It would be a win win for (almost) everyone.

    I love this. It’s like the human capital version of the Marshall Plan. What SJW worth his salt could possibly oppose it?

    Side benefit is the open borders nutcases get woke living in places like Haiti.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    If the Social Grievance Warriors had any integrity at all, it could be a program. But they'll never, ever tolerate being subjected to the reality they want the rest of us to bathe in. They prefer watching television.
  103. @Daniel Chieh
    I did indeed know Finnish who expressed interest in moving to the United States specifically because the NE business environment is generally not all that friendly to entrepreneurship; that said, from what I've known, they usually end up setting up shop in Europe and take advantage of the EU free travel zone, and sometimes specifically do so in a way to maximize their benefits: for example, by setting up shop in Estonia while allows them to take advantage of the reduced cost and wage structure while "living" in Finland and taking advantage of the social services.

    Like tax shelters and elite rainmakers in general, most of what they do is fully legal if not completely ethical.

    I did indeed know Finnish who expressed interest in moving to the United States specifically because the NE business environment is generally not all that friendly to entrepreneurship;

    Silicon Valley is packed with talented European expats who fled the over-regulated nanny states of their home countries. When I worked there I knew Swiss, German, French, even Greeks. Not uncommon at all.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    One of those magic keys to explaining a vast amount of everything (like the little joke in Goldman and Reiner's Princess Bride about "fighting a land war in Asia" that you later realize is objectively true) is Mancur Olson's revelation that the midcentury success of Germany and Japan -- rebuilding after war and benefitting from the Marshall Plan just like France and Britain, but massively more successfully -- was because all the helpful central government bureaucrats had been, um, indefinitely furloughed.
  104. @J.Ross
    The First Text on Islam (for non-Muslims) is Catastrophic Failure by Stephen Coughlin. Read this book before going any further. It is the most solidly argued nonfiction book I have ever read. It is not exactly what you describe but pretty much. I read it after taking nearly every Islamic course at a college with a huge Muslim population and very good professors, and I'd prefer Catastrophic Failure any day of the week. You cannot further without Coughlin because
    Islam has a consistent system (sects have no meaning here, the system applies to all of Islam and the sects are effectively local political disputes within the same larger ideological framework).
    This system is largely secret or deliberately mis-explained.
    Nothing Islamic makes any sense until you get this system; once you get it their actions make perfect sense.
    Coughin explains it so clearly, with so many citations, and so true to what you have seen and will see, that there's no going back.
    But one of the things he points out are the totally unambiguous messages available in English at mosque bookstores, like Qutb, or tafsirs endorsing slavery and terrorism. There's no such thing as mysterious unexplained radicalization following ray blasts from a UFO. It's all very simple. There's not more terrorists because there doesn't need to be. They move very carefully, one step at a time, always conscious of their numbers in a given setting.

    This system is largely secret or deliberately mis-explained.

    Interesting. Will check it out. Do you have any suggestions on Judaism as well?

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    Short answer Kevin McDonald (especially Culture of Critique, read together with Yuri Slezkline's Jewish Century) but dig: it's the same system, adjusted for different IQs. Talmudic Judaism is pure ancient Semitic Tribalism and Islam is an attempt to reform Semitic Tribalism by permitting mass conversion and tweaking anything Muhammad didn't like. The fact is that Catastrophic Failure objectively is the First Text on Islam but there is no one book that does a comparable job regarding Judaism. Israel Shahak's Jewish History, Jewish Religion is nice if read together with Ignacz Cyprian Pogonowski's Jews In Poland but it's a question of how much you want to read. There's also E Michael Jones's Jewish Revolutionary Spirit. I would skip Judaism's Strange Gods by Hoffman except in conjunction with other books. I just bought but have not yet read the first published cover to cover English edition of 200 years, will eventually get back on how awsesone it was. Jewish discussion about Jewishness is sort of a bottomless pit.
  105. @utu
    Perhaps Microsoft was sabotaging his application for visa.

    LOL.

  106. @utu
    Keep in mind that Thomm is Asian. Indian actually.

    You don’t know this. Evidence?

    • Replies: @Thomm
    It is not true.
  107. Here is a graph showing the percentage of high-skilled persons born in a particular poor country who now live in the OECD:

    https://medium.com/@NoahCarl/some-countries-are-sending-their-best-5f6e8ba3d267

  108. @Anonymous
    You don't know this. Evidence?

    It is not true.

  109. The only ‘morality’ the lefties and The Economist have is to attack and destroy white people as much as possible.

  110. @utu

    This system is largely secret or deliberately mis-explained.
     
    Interesting. Will check it out. Do you have any suggestions on Judaism as well?

    Short answer Kevin McDonald (especially Culture of Critique, read together with Yuri Slezkline’s Jewish Century) but dig: it’s the same system, adjusted for different IQs. Talmudic Judaism is pure ancient Semitic Tribalism and Islam is an attempt to reform Semitic Tribalism by permitting mass conversion and tweaking anything Muhammad didn’t like. The fact is that Catastrophic Failure objectively is the First Text on Islam but there is no one book that does a comparable job regarding Judaism. Israel Shahak’s Jewish History, Jewish Religion is nice if read together with Ignacz Cyprian Pogonowski’s Jews In Poland but it’s a question of how much you want to read. There’s also E Michael Jones’s Jewish Revolutionary Spirit. I would skip Judaism’s Strange Gods by Hoffman except in conjunction with other books. I just bought but have not yet read the first published cover to cover English edition of 200 years, will eventually get back on how awsesone it was. Jewish discussion about Jewishness is sort of a bottomless pit.

  111. @Moses

    I did indeed know Finnish who expressed interest in moving to the United States specifically because the NE business environment is generally not all that friendly to entrepreneurship;
     
    Silicon Valley is packed with talented European expats who fled the over-regulated nanny states of their home countries. When I worked there I knew Swiss, German, French, even Greeks. Not uncommon at all.

    One of those magic keys to explaining a vast amount of everything (like the little joke in Goldman and Reiner’s Princess Bride about “fighting a land war in Asia” that you later realize is objectively true) is Mancur Olson’s revelation that the midcentury success of Germany and Japan — rebuilding after war and benefitting from the Marshall Plan just like France and Britain, but massively more successfully — was because all the helpful central government bureaucrats had been, um, indefinitely furloughed.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    What, you mean that requiring waitresses to complete two-year service degrees in order to make a specified wage that will only increase with seniority isn't a a good idea?!!! It couldn't possibly turn into a brain drain of everyone who has ambition to leave the country, right?

    Finland's insane wage structure is very entertaining to witness, but not to live in. I loved the place! But I'll never want to try to build a business or work there.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-news-from-elsewhere-34515639

  112. @J.Ross
    Also consider that, even if you do everything right, the average person does not want to be a Haitian doctor anyway. The prevailing attitude prefers chasing money in a strange land to struggling to build your own. There's a line in an Israeli movie pointing up the opposite mindset: a doctor digs ditches and explains to an observer that, right now, his country needs roadbuilders more than it needs one more surgeon, so for the time being he's working a shovel. No Haitian in history has ever thought like that.

    Not just Haiti but this mindset is also very prevelant in Africa especially in the more successful countries. The young people glamour for college degrees while there aren’t any jobs but refuse to work in their parents farms. In countries like Ghana this is becoming a major issue as there aren’t people to take over from previous generation. The thing is agriculture is crucial to any country, a foundation not degrees in communication and sociology.

    https://amp.ft.com/content/d9cb0d1c-26e7-11e5-bd83-71cb60e8f08c

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    Yeah there was a Beeb radio story about a game show trying make farming sexy. Several stories besides maintaining this wierdly upbeat mood. All ended very quietly implying, they'll discover how great farming is when there's a crash.
  113. @Ali Choudhury
    Few if any Norwegians would look to emigrate to the US. They have an oil-rich country, virtually free healthcare, get 5 weeks of vacation, generous parental leave when the wife gives birth and the working day is 730 to 330. What normal person would trade that to come to America? The fear of being forced into bankruptcy by medical bills is a major disincentive for those in developed countries to move to the US permanently. It only really makes sense to go if you will be a very high earner and then you are probably earning enough already in Paris, Barcelona, Stockholm etc. to be comfortable enough that additional material rewards won't really tempt you and being away from your family and friends is a wrench you do not need to take. So the incentives to move only really suit the ambitious looking to leave undeveloped countries.

    It is not true to assume brainy emigrants in a Third World country hurt it by leaving. I lived in one for ten years, most of that talent simply gets wasted dealing with an environment of minimal opportunity, graft, nepotism and cultural stupidity. In a developed country they get to develop their skills, their networks and help the old country out far more by sending remittances (like the Filipino diaspora) than by wasting away in an unproductive role. There is always enough talent back home that can service the need for skilled employment if the ruling powers ever decide to make the country liveable for anyone but themselves.

    “Few if any Norwegians would look to emigrate to the US. They have an oil-rich country, virtually free healthcare, get 5 weeks of vacation, generous parental leave when the wife gives birth and the working day is 730 to 330. What normal person would trade that to come to America?”

    That’s the point dude; we get the motivated ones, not the benefits leeches.

  114. @nebulafox
    It'd be more moral, sure, but that's not really the concern of the United States government. Rather, America's priority should be to screw foreign governments before foreign governments screw us. We have our interests, and no one else is going to look out for them.

    We should attract the Iranian physicist who'd otherwise be working on the bomb program in his native country or that Russian computer genius who is interested in making a crypto startup who'd otherwise be working as a hacker for criminal groups back in Russia or that Chinese biotech startup founder who'd otherwise be working for the BGI out in Shenzhen. But the 10 millionth H2B web dev coolie or half-literate campensino illegal who makes another greedy employer more fat with cash? Hell no. America has 350 million people. We have plenty of coders, never mind underemployed teenagers and working class citizens. So, if some spoiled-rotten CEO or employer has to fork out a fair wage to get an American for day-to-day jobs, boo-hoo for him. Hopefully, Trump sees that undermining societal stability isn't worth gaining the admiration of the Norquist crowd, unlike Republicans before him.

    Automation is coming. We will have less jobs in the future, not more. Thus, Japan, South Korea, Singapore, Australia, et all are handling their migration policies as a rule much wiser than Western Europe is, on that and on so many other grounds.

    > Rather, America’s priority should be to screw foreign governments before foreign governments screw us.

    If America imports all capable people from a country say Brazil or India, these countries will quickly turn into shitholes sending hordes of migrants everywhere.

    Prudence & enlightened self-interest dictates ensuring policies that help America while also improving the conditions in other countries.

  115. @Moses

    The rational solution to the problem of international inequality, which is driven by human capital inequality, is to "encourage" the open border intelligentsia in the west to relocate to low capital countries as a capital transfusion. It would be a win win for (almost) everyone.
     
    I love this. It's like the human capital version of the Marshall Plan. What SJW worth his salt could possibly oppose it?

    Side benefit is the open borders nutcases get woke living in places like Haiti.

    If the Social Grievance Warriors had any integrity at all, it could be a program. But they’ll never, ever tolerate being subjected to the reality they want the rest of us to bathe in. They prefer watching television.

  116. @Alden
    Was he the one who went to a teachers college in Colorado and wrote a book about how horrible and disgusting it was that the local churches has dances?

    I read that book, can’t remember the title. The town was dry and the college was very strict about curfews, seperate men & women’s dorms no sex or drinking

    But he was still absolutely appalled especially at the minister who had dances at his church.


    Except for the rich S Americans getting MBA degrees, I’ve noticed that foreign students tend to hate America and find nothing good about it.

    Except for the rich S Americans getting MBA degrees, I’ve noticed that foreign students tend to hate America and find nothing good about it.

    You can’t have met many foreign students if you think that.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    I have also somehow managed to stumble across this group that Sri Num assures us is vanishingly tiny.
  117. I’ve mentioned East Oslo before (total contrast to the west, you could be in Bethnal Green or Bradford – remember when that would have meant Cockneys and Yorkshire folk?), City Journal have this on the Islamisation of Oslo.

    https://www.city-journal.org/html/islamization-oslo-15686.html

  118. @J.Ross
    One of those magic keys to explaining a vast amount of everything (like the little joke in Goldman and Reiner's Princess Bride about "fighting a land war in Asia" that you later realize is objectively true) is Mancur Olson's revelation that the midcentury success of Germany and Japan -- rebuilding after war and benefitting from the Marshall Plan just like France and Britain, but massively more successfully -- was because all the helpful central government bureaucrats had been, um, indefinitely furloughed.

    What, you mean that requiring waitresses to complete two-year service degrees in order to make a specified wage that will only increase with seniority isn’t a a good idea?!!! It couldn’t possibly turn into a brain drain of everyone who has ambition to leave the country, right?

    Finland’s insane wage structure is very entertaining to witness, but not to live in. I loved the place! But I’ll never want to try to build a business or work there.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-news-from-elsewhere-34515639

  119. In his book Exodus, Paul Collier cites the migration of educated African Americans out of what had up until then been orderly black neighbourhoods as the reason they spiraled down into hell hole ghettos.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    I guess the best thought experiment reversal would be, imagine if the sub-middle "craftsman class" of England and the American Colonies were compressed back into the bottom muck or viciously outcompeted by cheaper alternatives, while science-inventing middle-class-and-up notables permanently left Philadalphia and Virginia the first chance they had. Keeping everything else the same, what would white "America" look like in three hundred years?
    , @MaMu1977
    The cause is even simpler: when the blue and white collar families realized that the court systems were doing nothing to prevent the inevitable surge in crime that accompanies any mass of single mother raised children, those orderly families ran away.

    Prior to the liberalisation of the judicial system, punishments worked like This- wrist slaps for nuisance crimes, jail time for injurious or public property crimes, hard time for casualty-level or private property crimes. Mum and Pops were in the home to seal the punitive deal, with many petty crimes never even reaching the courts (yard work or running errands in exchange for broken windows being a classic example.) But all of that changed when the prototypical "saintly single mothers" hit the scene. Instead of having two parents to contact for minor infractions, there was one or less (Welfare + intoxication/addiction = thousands of idle hands). Spray painted walls and cheekily tossed firecrackers ended up in the courts, where liberal-minded judges dismissed as many charges as possible. Emboldened by lese majeste and unemcumbered by paternal authority (after all, even the "good example" single mothers were either working or studying), minor criminals had no one and nothing to keep them in line. Crimes escalated, but the newly-notified single mothers spun their webs of, "Have mercy, he's a fatherless child!/I'm working two jobs and doing my best!/He's a good boy, really! He just fell in with the wrong crowd!", to prevent their spawn from being punished for the mid level crimes (felony theft, broken bones, etc.) On top of that, the children were given plenty of time to plan their revenge against the "snitches". Then, of course, the children began to learn about expunged criminal records for juveniles, even with the hardcore crimes (rape, rson, maiming, drugs, murder, etc.) The environment shifted from an adults decide-children obey mindset to Colin Flaherty's motto, "Don't get the black kids angry." There was no one in the homes of the single mother-raised children to create (never mind enforce) discipline. You (the spawn) could do anything short of burn a house down and be back on the streets in minutes. If you toss a Molotov cocktail into a garage and someone dies, you can be free and clear by the time you turn 21. And, of course, the children had nothing to lose (single mothers, prior to the late 80's, were uniformly poor. For every gainfully employed "Julia", there were dozens of overworked/underpaid doyennes, assuming that the mothers were working at all (remember, it was the 70's. There were plenty of men willing to share some weed or pills or black tar with the liberated ladies...)

    This gave working black families a Hobson's choice-moving away from the dysfunction (and risk the KKK or disorganized white racists), or staying in place and having their children picked off one by one (because the cops didn't get batons-to-heads happy until blood was flowing, and judges wouldn't treat the children as threats until the ground was covered in immobile bodies.) So the white collar families ran as far away as possible, becoming the "good black families" in white neighbourhoods. Then, once drugs magically appeared, blue collar families grabbed what was left of their children and ran as well, leaving the dysfunctional family units with no checks and balances.
  120. Supporters of illegal immigrants are the neo-slavetraders.

  121. @Numinous

    Except for the rich S Americans getting MBA degrees, I’ve noticed that foreign students tend to hate America and find nothing good about it.
     
    You can't have met many foreign students if you think that.

    I have also somehow managed to stumble across this group that Sri Num assures us is vanishingly tiny.

  122. @Sean
    In his book Exodus, Paul Collier cites the migration of educated African Americans out of what had up until then been orderly black neighbourhoods as the reason they spiraled down into hell hole ghettos.

    I guess the best thought experiment reversal would be, imagine if the sub-middle “craftsman class” of England and the American Colonies were compressed back into the bottom muck or viciously outcompeted by cheaper alternatives, while science-inventing middle-class-and-up notables permanently left Philadalphia and Virginia the first chance they had. Keeping everything else the same, what would white “America” look like in three hundred years?

  123. @Ed
    Not just Haiti but this mindset is also very prevelant in Africa especially in the more successful countries. The young people glamour for college degrees while there aren’t any jobs but refuse to work in their parents farms. In countries like Ghana this is becoming a major issue as there aren’t people to take over from previous generation. The thing is agriculture is crucial to any country, a foundation not degrees in communication and sociology.


    https://amp.ft.com/content/d9cb0d1c-26e7-11e5-bd83-71cb60e8f08c

    Yeah there was a Beeb radio story about a game show trying make farming sexy. Several stories besides maintaining this wierdly upbeat mood. All ended very quietly implying, they’ll discover how great farming is when there’s a crash.

  124. @Thomm

    You know, the irony is in 1980, Mexico was much more developed and wealthier than China, and the Philippines used to be the second richest country in Asia behind Japan. Really shows how much Marcos hosed the place.
     
    Oh, it goes further. Asia was the center of the world economy since ancient times until 1800. The recent high growth of China and India is arguably just a reversion to the long-term status quo :

    http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-CkKook7ouRo/U8b-tIlPrgI/AAAAAAAAGv0/GlVdZDTg9nI/s640/20120630_wom941.png

    This is why the IQ argument is really just useful in differentiation blacks from Eurasians (since blacks have NEVER been at parity was Eurasia at any point since 2000 BC), but not really for any divisions more refined than that. One has to ignore any history before 1800 to convince themselves of major differences in civilizational potential between the various Eurasian groups.

    This is why the IQ argument is really just useful in differentiation blacks from Eurasians (since blacks have NEVER been at parity was Eurasia at any point since 2000 BC), but not really for any divisions more refined than that.

    Incorrect. Yes, the Africa/Eurasia thing is the big zeroth order effect, but if you think it ends there, you’re just completely missed the boat.

    I’ll throw out some of the more obvious:

    Indonesia vs. China — Indonesia not under the commie thumb and good relations with the US, but saw no development like what we’ve seen in China.

    Philippines vs. Korea — same deal, Philippines had good relations with the US, didn’t have the war, has had nothing like the same export driven takeoff.

    China vs. India — India had British law and at least cordial relations with the US and the West while China was mired in Maoism; it’s not going anywhere like China is

    Latin America vs. the US/Canada — yes English culture was superior to Spanish culture in supporting commercial development … but it’s been years and years and years and the lag remains; there’s zero indication it’s going away, only that the US/Canada being dragged down by immigrants

    All these effects are primarily HBD driven.

    We’ve had the American trade regime for 70 years now, and the post-Cold War version of it for approaching 30 of that. There really aren’t any “secrets” out there to account for these divergences or “failures”. Yes there is “history”. Many places are still “catching up”. But that process should be underway. We have *really* bad governance–e.g. North Korea–that is able to destroy people’s potential. And we have Islam which seems able to seriously degrade it–my estimate is it effectively knocks off about 5 IQ points. But most of what we see out there–especially if things aren’t at least trending in the right direction–is HBD.

    • Replies: @Thomm

    Indonesia vs. China — Indonesia not under the commie thumb and good relations with the US, but saw no development like what we’ve seen in China.
     
    False. China didn't surpass Indonesia until 2007 :
    https://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&ctype=l&strail=false&bcs=d&nselm=h&met_y=ny_gdp_pcap_pp_cd&scale_y=lin&ind_y=false&rdim=region&idim=country:CHN:IDN&ifdim=region&hl=en&dl=en&ind=false

    HBD is obviously not the reason here.

    Philippines vs. Korea

    I notice that you deliberately omitted North Korea vs. South Korea.

    China vs. India

    Again, India is just 10 years behind China in every major development metric. Plus, Indian are richer than Chinese in the US and in Singapore.

    Latin America vs. the US/Canada

    Argentina and Uruguay are 98% white, and hence much whiter than the US or Canada. Yet they only have the prosperity of Mexico.

    Your points don't hold water. Plus, you seem to have no concept of economic growth. If a country had 7% real GDP growth last year, did their IQ rise by 7%?

    Southeast Asia has about the same prosperity as what Eastern Europe had in 2000-05. India is about the same prosperity as what Eastern Europe in aggregate had in ~1995. Moldova and Ukraine are about the same as India even today.
    , @nebulafox
    I'm not going to comment on Latin America because that's not my sharpest area-I have limited direct experience and am largely going off what I've picked up from papers.

    Asia, though...

    >Indonesia vs. China — Indonesia not under the commie thumb and good relations with the US, but saw no development like what we’ve seen in China.

    But Indonesia was a dictatorship until 1998-and that's when the big economic boom took place, not after.

    Indonesia's economic miracle under Suharto is nowhere near as well known in the West as China's under the Deng and post-Deng era CCP, but it was pretty staggering, and until the 2000s, it was ahead of China in most metrics. Why China surged on ahead of Indonesia is quite interesting and would make for a great post.

    One possible HBD influence there is mass flight of ethnic Chinese capital after the 1998 pogroms, but that's just way too small a portion of the populace to explain something on this scale. Moreover, most ethnic Chinese weren't the Lim Sioe Liong types, but small shopkeepers who are by this point pretty assimilated-monolingual in Javanese or whatever the local dialect is, some even have converted to Islam and intermarried. Assimilation was traditionally very limited, but during the final days of the New Order, it began to increase.

    >Philippines vs. Korea — same deal, Philippines had good relations with the US, didn’t have the war, has had nothing like the same export driven takeoff.

    Yes and no. The PI is much more of a Hispanized rather than a traditional Asian nation. However, they also got *horrendously* unlucky with the dictator they ended up with. South Korea was more fortunate, if you consider having humorless military men who worked the population's fingers to the bone in charge for a couple of decades. (Everything is relative.)

    Leadership does matter, whatever the Great Man Theory's flaws. Park didn't just come to power himself, he also brought his technocratic, Japanese-influenced military faction with him, opposing the old-style American-influenced Rhee types.

    >China vs. India — India had British law and at least cordial relations with the US and the West while China was mired in Maoism; it’s not going anywhere like China is

    India has had to deal with a lot of things China has not, from an extremely inept government bureaucracy to starting a decade later with economic reforms (as did Vietnam) to ethnic and religious issues. And ironically enough, another thing it has had to deal with is being (mostly-Emergency excepted) a successful democracy.

    It's an interesting trade-off for developing nations.

  125. Hate to critize people doing useful work, that i’m not doing … but this is a weird graph by Jonathan P.

    I really don’t see the point of banging out but leaving out emmigration heavy hitters like China, India (a definite high brain drainer), the Philippines, Mexico, Nigeria, Pakistan and having a chart of mostly bantam countries. Yesterday, I popped open the excel spreadsheets he based this on and the data for those countries is definitely there–and generally dwarfs the numbers from the nations in this chart.

  126. @Clifford Brown

    In contrast New York City with a population of 8.5m and regarded as the safest big city in the US, recorded 290 murders in 2017. This was the lowest number for decades and prompted lots of back-slapping. A number that high in Europe would have the political class lynched.
     
    The White homicide rate in New York City is only slightly higher than that of Norway, on par with the homicide rate of Switzerland or South Korea.

    When it comes to crime, your citizens are very much in a league of their own.
     
    This is somewhat inaccurate. Blacks in America have a lower homicide rate than the homicide rate in Sub-Saharan Africa and Latinos in America have much lower homicide rates than Mexico and Central America. American Whites; however, have a much higher homicide rate than that of Western Europe.

    “The White homicide rate in New York City is only slightly higher than that of Norway, on par with the homicide rate of Switzerland or South Korea.

    This is somewhat inaccurate. Blacks in America have a lower homicide rate than the homicide rate in Sub-Saharan Africa and Latinos in America have much lower homicide rates than Mexico and Central America. American Whites; however, have a much higher homicide rate than that of Western Europe.”

    Michael Lind wrote once if you waved a magic wand and made America’s blacks and Hispanics disappear, America was basically western Europe in terms of violent crime rates. He then said if you waved the wand a second time and made white Southerners disappear, the US was basically Japan in terms of crime.

  127. I really don’t see the point of banging out but leaving out emmigration heavy hitters like China, India (a definite high brain drainer), the Philippines, Mexico, Nigeria, Pakistan and having a chart of mostly bantam countries.

    Thanks. It is silly to exclude the big countries from such a chart. It seems that the chart was deliberately made to be useless.

    Antigua and Barbuda has just 100,000 people. Even if the entire country vacated and came to the US, most Americans would not even know of the community, just seeing them as ‘more Jamaicans’.

  128. @AnotherDad

    This is why the IQ argument is really just useful in differentiation blacks from Eurasians (since blacks have NEVER been at parity was Eurasia at any point since 2000 BC), but not really for any divisions more refined than that.
     
    Incorrect. Yes, the Africa/Eurasia thing is the big zeroth order effect, but if you think it ends there, you're just completely missed the boat.

    I'll throw out some of the more obvious:

    Indonesia vs. China -- Indonesia not under the commie thumb and good relations with the US, but saw no development like what we've seen in China.

    Philippines vs. Korea -- same deal, Philippines had good relations with the US, didn't have the war, has had nothing like the same export driven takeoff.

    China vs. India -- India had British law and at least cordial relations with the US and the West while China was mired in Maoism; it's not going anywhere like China is

    Latin America vs. the US/Canada -- yes English culture was superior to Spanish culture in supporting commercial development ... but it's been years and years and years and the lag remains; there's zero indication it's going away, only that the US/Canada being dragged down by immigrants


    All these effects are primarily HBD driven.

    We've had the American trade regime for 70 years now, and the post-Cold War version of it for approaching 30 of that. There really aren't any "secrets" out there to account for these divergences or "failures". Yes there is "history". Many places are still "catching up". But that process should be underway. We have *really* bad governance--e.g. North Korea--that is able to destroy people's potential. And we have Islam which seems able to seriously degrade it--my estimate is it effectively knocks off about 5 IQ points. But most of what we see out there--especially if things aren't at least trending in the right direction--is HBD.

    Indonesia vs. China — Indonesia not under the commie thumb and good relations with the US, but saw no development like what we’ve seen in China.

    False. China didn’t surpass Indonesia until 2007 :
    https://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&ctype=l&strail=false&bcs=d&nselm=h&met_y=ny_gdp_pcap_pp_cd&scale_y=lin&ind_y=false&rdim=region&idim=country:CHN:IDN&ifdim=region&hl=en&dl=en&ind=false

    HBD is obviously not the reason here.

    Philippines vs. Korea

    I notice that you deliberately omitted North Korea vs. South Korea.

    China vs. India

    Again, India is just 10 years behind China in every major development metric. Plus, Indian are richer than Chinese in the US and in Singapore.

    Latin America vs. the US/Canada

    Argentina and Uruguay are 98% white, and hence much whiter than the US or Canada. Yet they only have the prosperity of Mexico.

    Your points don’t hold water. Plus, you seem to have no concept of economic growth. If a country had 7% real GDP growth last year, did their IQ rise by 7%?

    Southeast Asia has about the same prosperity as what Eastern Europe had in 2000-05. India is about the same prosperity as what Eastern Europe in aggregate had in ~1995. Moldova and Ukraine are about the same as India even today.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    Again, India is just 10 years behind China in every major development metric. Plus, Indian are richer than Chinese in the US and in Singapore.


     

    I was curious about this, so I investigated it a bit. In 2007, 10 years ago, China had 97% access to electricity. Access to infrastructure such as water and electricity is a fundamental underpinning for future development - I consider that to be a major development metric. Both US and China are at 100% access as of 2014, for what it is worth.

    As of 2014, India's access to electricity is still only at 79%, which is even lower than that of China's at 1990. In fact, it actually showed a decrease in access twice(once in 2000, once in 2010).

    https://data.worldbank.org

    Believe it or not, I'm not hostile to India. It has just been rather disappointing.Hopefully with the proliferation and dropping cost of solar panels, this will change.

  129. @Thomm

    Indonesia vs. China — Indonesia not under the commie thumb and good relations with the US, but saw no development like what we’ve seen in China.
     
    False. China didn't surpass Indonesia until 2007 :
    https://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&ctype=l&strail=false&bcs=d&nselm=h&met_y=ny_gdp_pcap_pp_cd&scale_y=lin&ind_y=false&rdim=region&idim=country:CHN:IDN&ifdim=region&hl=en&dl=en&ind=false

    HBD is obviously not the reason here.

    Philippines vs. Korea

    I notice that you deliberately omitted North Korea vs. South Korea.

    China vs. India

    Again, India is just 10 years behind China in every major development metric. Plus, Indian are richer than Chinese in the US and in Singapore.

    Latin America vs. the US/Canada

    Argentina and Uruguay are 98% white, and hence much whiter than the US or Canada. Yet they only have the prosperity of Mexico.

    Your points don't hold water. Plus, you seem to have no concept of economic growth. If a country had 7% real GDP growth last year, did their IQ rise by 7%?

    Southeast Asia has about the same prosperity as what Eastern Europe had in 2000-05. India is about the same prosperity as what Eastern Europe in aggregate had in ~1995. Moldova and Ukraine are about the same as India even today.

    Again, India is just 10 years behind China in every major development metric. Plus, Indian are richer than Chinese in the US and in Singapore.

    I was curious about this, so I investigated it a bit. In 2007, 10 years ago, China had 97% access to electricity. Access to infrastructure such as water and electricity is a fundamental underpinning for future development – I consider that to be a major development metric. Both US and China are at 100% access as of 2014, for what it is worth.

    As of 2014, India’s access to electricity is still only at 79%, which is even lower than that of China’s at 1990. In fact, it actually showed a decrease in access twice(once in 2000, once in 2010).

    https://data.worldbank.org

    Believe it or not, I’m not hostile to India. It has just been rather disappointing.Hopefully with the proliferation and dropping cost of solar panels, this will change.

    • Replies: @Thomm
    Electricity is one metric, as is literacy (both of which India still has a problem in). Remember that rural India is 'unpenetrable' to an extent that rural China was not.

    But in GDP per capita and the UN Human development index, India is about where China was in 2007-08.

    Ultimately, GDP per capita (current and constant) is the metric that matters. By this metric, China is where South Korea was in 1998. India is where China was in 2007-08. India is where Eastern Europe was in the mid-90s.

  130. @Thomm

    You know, the irony is in 1980, Mexico was much more developed and wealthier than China, and the Philippines used to be the second richest country in Asia behind Japan. Really shows how much Marcos hosed the place.
     
    Oh, it goes further. Asia was the center of the world economy since ancient times until 1800. The recent high growth of China and India is arguably just a reversion to the long-term status quo :

    http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-CkKook7ouRo/U8b-tIlPrgI/AAAAAAAAGv0/GlVdZDTg9nI/s640/20120630_wom941.png

    This is why the IQ argument is really just useful in differentiation blacks from Eurasians (since blacks have NEVER been at parity was Eurasia at any point since 2000 BC), but not really for any divisions more refined than that. One has to ignore any history before 1800 to convince themselves of major differences in civilizational potential between the various Eurasian groups.

    It’s not as though Mexico didn’t try, to be fair to them (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maquiladora), but for reasons ranging from government ineptitude in investment to the fact that the industrial districts of Mexico got hit hardest by the drug war, low-scale manufacturing was never able to take off there in the way it did in China.

    I think what everybody here tends to forget is that places like China, India, and Africa have such gigantic populations these days that, no matter what the average IQ is, you’ll have plenty of retards and plenty of geniuses by sheer force of numbers. That, and India and Africa still have a lot of things like stupid diseases and childhood malnutrition that will inevitably artificially deflate the number. For India, at least, that should probably change over the next couple of decades. Same story for the parts of Africa that can get their population boom problem in order.

  131. @AnotherDad

    This is why the IQ argument is really just useful in differentiation blacks from Eurasians (since blacks have NEVER been at parity was Eurasia at any point since 2000 BC), but not really for any divisions more refined than that.
     
    Incorrect. Yes, the Africa/Eurasia thing is the big zeroth order effect, but if you think it ends there, you're just completely missed the boat.

    I'll throw out some of the more obvious:

    Indonesia vs. China -- Indonesia not under the commie thumb and good relations with the US, but saw no development like what we've seen in China.

    Philippines vs. Korea -- same deal, Philippines had good relations with the US, didn't have the war, has had nothing like the same export driven takeoff.

    China vs. India -- India had British law and at least cordial relations with the US and the West while China was mired in Maoism; it's not going anywhere like China is

    Latin America vs. the US/Canada -- yes English culture was superior to Spanish culture in supporting commercial development ... but it's been years and years and years and the lag remains; there's zero indication it's going away, only that the US/Canada being dragged down by immigrants


    All these effects are primarily HBD driven.

    We've had the American trade regime for 70 years now, and the post-Cold War version of it for approaching 30 of that. There really aren't any "secrets" out there to account for these divergences or "failures". Yes there is "history". Many places are still "catching up". But that process should be underway. We have *really* bad governance--e.g. North Korea--that is able to destroy people's potential. And we have Islam which seems able to seriously degrade it--my estimate is it effectively knocks off about 5 IQ points. But most of what we see out there--especially if things aren't at least trending in the right direction--is HBD.

    I’m not going to comment on Latin America because that’s not my sharpest area-I have limited direct experience and am largely going off what I’ve picked up from papers.

    Asia, though…

    >Indonesia vs. China — Indonesia not under the commie thumb and good relations with the US, but saw no development like what we’ve seen in China.

    But Indonesia was a dictatorship until 1998-and that’s when the big economic boom took place, not after.

    Indonesia’s economic miracle under Suharto is nowhere near as well known in the West as China’s under the Deng and post-Deng era CCP, but it was pretty staggering, and until the 2000s, it was ahead of China in most metrics. Why China surged on ahead of Indonesia is quite interesting and would make for a great post.

    One possible HBD influence there is mass flight of ethnic Chinese capital after the 1998 pogroms, but that’s just way too small a portion of the populace to explain something on this scale. Moreover, most ethnic Chinese weren’t the Lim Sioe Liong types, but small shopkeepers who are by this point pretty assimilated-monolingual in Javanese or whatever the local dialect is, some even have converted to Islam and intermarried. Assimilation was traditionally very limited, but during the final days of the New Order, it began to increase.

    >Philippines vs. Korea — same deal, Philippines had good relations with the US, didn’t have the war, has had nothing like the same export driven takeoff.

    Yes and no. The PI is much more of a Hispanized rather than a traditional Asian nation. However, they also got *horrendously* unlucky with the dictator they ended up with. South Korea was more fortunate, if you consider having humorless military men who worked the population’s fingers to the bone in charge for a couple of decades. (Everything is relative.)

    Leadership does matter, whatever the Great Man Theory’s flaws. Park didn’t just come to power himself, he also brought his technocratic, Japanese-influenced military faction with him, opposing the old-style American-influenced Rhee types.

    >China vs. India — India had British law and at least cordial relations with the US and the West while China was mired in Maoism; it’s not going anywhere like China is

    India has had to deal with a lot of things China has not, from an extremely inept government bureaucracy to starting a decade later with economic reforms (as did Vietnam) to ethnic and religious issues. And ironically enough, another thing it has had to deal with is being (mostly-Emergency excepted) a successful democracy.

    It’s an interesting trade-off for developing nations.

  132. @Daniel Chieh

    Again, India is just 10 years behind China in every major development metric. Plus, Indian are richer than Chinese in the US and in Singapore.


     

    I was curious about this, so I investigated it a bit. In 2007, 10 years ago, China had 97% access to electricity. Access to infrastructure such as water and electricity is a fundamental underpinning for future development - I consider that to be a major development metric. Both US and China are at 100% access as of 2014, for what it is worth.

    As of 2014, India's access to electricity is still only at 79%, which is even lower than that of China's at 1990. In fact, it actually showed a decrease in access twice(once in 2000, once in 2010).

    https://data.worldbank.org

    Believe it or not, I'm not hostile to India. It has just been rather disappointing.Hopefully with the proliferation and dropping cost of solar panels, this will change.

    Electricity is one metric, as is literacy (both of which India still has a problem in). Remember that rural India is ‘unpenetrable’ to an extent that rural China was not.

    But in GDP per capita and the UN Human development index, India is about where China was in 2007-08.

    Ultimately, GDP per capita (current and constant) is the metric that matters. By this metric, China is where South Korea was in 1998. India is where China was in 2007-08. India is where Eastern Europe was in the mid-90s.

  133. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @J.Ross
    A major basis for modern Islamic radicalism was Sayyid Qutb observing the West, feeling deep disgust, and writing Milestones, which is a uniquely significant and influential tract about Islamic incompatibility with modernity from the point of view that this incompatibility is good.

    Is Dreher reading this?
    This comment is dated Jan 25, and on Jan 26 he posts a lengthy discussion of what he has learned from a “bad” writer like Qutb, while “balancing” this by saying he has also learned from “bad” stuff like The Camp of the Saints and Michel Houellebecq.
    http://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/learning-from-bad-books-people/

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    He called Camp of the Saints "racist" and I stopped reading there (a lie) -- he credits Qutb with being "on to something" but is not journalist enough to show or tell just what. Maybe he's said intelligent things in the past but going by this he is not worth remembering.
  134. @Anonymous
    Is Dreher reading this?
    This comment is dated Jan 25, and on Jan 26 he posts a lengthy discussion of what he has learned from a "bad" writer like Qutb, while "balancing" this by saying he has also learned from "bad" stuff like The Camp of the Saints and Michel Houellebecq.
    http://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/learning-from-bad-books-people/

    He called Camp of the Saints “racist” and I stopped reading there (a lie) — he credits Qutb with being “on to something” but is not journalist enough to show or tell just what. Maybe he’s said intelligent things in the past but going by this he is not worth remembering.

  135. @Anon
    Every poor African nation should build a statue of a woman holding a torch and put up a plaque with words, "Give us your rich, industrious, innovative, productive, ingenious so they can invest in our nation and build infrastructure and stuff so that we can live much better."

    And all the Progressive Western types can go there to enjoy the Diversity and use their energies toward making lives better for ALL Africans. If the US just takes in African elites, they do well in the US but Africans left behind do worse.

    “Every poor African nation should build a statue of a woman holding a torch and put up a plaque with words, ‘Give us your rich, industrious, innovative, productive, ingenious so they can invest in our nation and build infrastructure and stuff so that we can live much better.’”

    There’s a seed of a MAGA idea there. Trump should commission some enterprising entrepreneur to build replicas of the Statue of Liberty, and the the USA can gift those to these nations as its last act of foreign aid. Find some way to work, “There’s no place like home” onto that plaque.

  136. @Sean
    In his book Exodus, Paul Collier cites the migration of educated African Americans out of what had up until then been orderly black neighbourhoods as the reason they spiraled down into hell hole ghettos.

    The cause is even simpler: when the blue and white collar families realized that the court systems were doing nothing to prevent the inevitable surge in crime that accompanies any mass of single mother raised children, those orderly families ran away.

    Prior to the liberalisation of the judicial system, punishments worked like This- wrist slaps for nuisance crimes, jail time for injurious or public property crimes, hard time for casualty-level or private property crimes. Mum and Pops were in the home to seal the punitive deal, with many petty crimes never even reaching the courts (yard work or running errands in exchange for broken windows being a classic example.) But all of that changed when the prototypical “saintly single mothers” hit the scene. Instead of having two parents to contact for minor infractions, there was one or less (Welfare + intoxication/addiction = thousands of idle hands). Spray painted walls and cheekily tossed firecrackers ended up in the courts, where liberal-minded judges dismissed as many charges as possible. Emboldened by lese majeste and unemcumbered by paternal authority (after all, even the “good example” single mothers were either working or studying), minor criminals had no one and nothing to keep them in line. Crimes escalated, but the newly-notified single mothers spun their webs of, “Have mercy, he’s a fatherless child!/I’m working two jobs and doing my best!/He’s a good boy, really! He just fell in with the wrong crowd!”, to prevent their spawn from being punished for the mid level crimes (felony theft, broken bones, etc.) On top of that, the children were given plenty of time to plan their revenge against the “snitches”. Then, of course, the children began to learn about expunged criminal records for juveniles, even with the hardcore crimes (rape, rson, maiming, drugs, murder, etc.) The environment shifted from an adults decide-children obey mindset to Colin Flaherty’s motto, “Don’t get the black kids angry.” There was no one in the homes of the single mother-raised children to create (never mind enforce) discipline. You (the spawn) could do anything short of burn a house down and be back on the streets in minutes. If you toss a Molotov cocktail into a garage and someone dies, you can be free and clear by the time you turn 21. And, of course, the children had nothing to lose (single mothers, prior to the late 80’s, were uniformly poor. For every gainfully employed “Julia”, there were dozens of overworked/underpaid doyennes, assuming that the mothers were working at all (remember, it was the 70’s. There were plenty of men willing to share some weed or pills or black tar with the liberated ladies…)

    This gave working black families a Hobson’s choice-moving away from the dysfunction (and risk the KKK or disorganized white racists), or staying in place and having their children picked off one by one (because the cops didn’t get batons-to-heads happy until blood was flowing, and judges wouldn’t treat the children as threats until the ground was covered in immobile bodies.) So the white collar families ran as far away as possible, becoming the “good black families” in white neighbourhoods. Then, once drugs magically appeared, blue collar families grabbed what was left of their children and ran as well, leaving the dysfunctional family units with no checks and balances.

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