The Unz Review: An Alternative Media Selection
A Collection of Interesting, Important, and Controversial Perspectives Largely Excluded from the American Mainstream Media
 TeasersiSteve Blog
Wonderlic IQ Test Helps Predict NFL Arrest Rates
🔊 Listen RSS
Email This Page to Someone

 Remember My Information



=>

Bookmark Toggle AllToCAdd to LibraryRemove from Library • BShow CommentNext New CommentNext New ReplyRead More
ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
AgreeDisagreeLOLTroll
These buttons register your public Agreement, Disagreement, Troll, or LOL with the selected comment. They are ONLY available to recent, frequent commenters who have saved their Name+Email using the 'Remember My Information' checkbox, and may also ONLY be used once per hour.
Ignore Commenter Follow Commenter
Search Text Case Sensitive  Exact Words  Include Comments
List of Bookmarks

From ESPN:

Using data to predict arrest rates of NFL draft picks

Kevin Seifert

A group of college professors and researchers has studied that question as part of a paper on off-duty deviance in professional settings. Their peer-reviewed work was published this month in the American Journal of Applied Psychology.

There were two NFL draft-related results. First, that between 2001 and 2012, players with publicly-documented pre-draft arrests were nearly twice as likely to be arrested after reaching the NFL than those who had not been arrested. The second, which is perhaps less obvious and more valuable, was that there was a small but clear correlation between arrests and Wonderlic tests scores. Players who scored below the mean in the researchers’ sample were also about twice as likely to be arrested in the NFL as those who scored above it.

“The effects are relatively small,” said author Brian Hoffman, an associate professor and chair of the industrial-organizational program at the University of Georgia. “But it’s important here because when making multimillion-dollar decisions, a small effect can be very meaningful. A player’s getting a four-game suspension can be a big deal, competitively and financially.”

By the way, I’ve always been interested in the flip side of this question: how much does athletic talent help youths stay out of career-disastrous entanglements with the law?

I would hypothesize that high athletic potential black youths are less likely to land in prison, either because they have more legal opportunities and thus avoid joining criminal gangs, or better role models such as coaches rather than pimps, or because important adults pull strings for them (e.g., paying off the coed accusing them of rape) or hiring them a good lawyer (who was, say, a fraternity brother of the judge in their case).

One way to study this might be with prison and arrest records by height. My hypothesis would be that very tall black men are underrepresented in prison relative to their share of the population.

This would be a tricky analysis to carry out because you’d need two big sample sizes of heights, one of the general population and the other of the in-trouble population, to find enough potential NBA height individuals. But if anybody ever stumbles upon two such databases, it could be a pretty interesting nature-nurture study of individuals who enjoy very positive nurture due to a semi-random nature factor (height).

 
• Tags: Football, Height, IQ 
Hide 87 CommentsLeave a Comment
Commenters to Ignore...to FollowEndorsed Only
Trim Comments?
  1. Why postpone the inevitable? Any prospect who scores below the mean on the Wonderlic should be suspended for five games and do a year on probation.

    • Replies: @interesting
    contrast that with law enforcement where when you score too high you don't get the job.
    , @Charles Erwin Wilson
    Right, because separating cause and effect is exactly what our society needs lots more of.

    I'll bet you haven't considered how promising (financially) your future political career is. You too can be president.
    , @Buffalo Joe
    Jonathon, Years ago I had an article published in the local news where I described a new Fantasy Football league were you choose only college and NFL miscreants and then hoped for the worse. Points awarded for DUIs, battery, drug possession and assorted misdemeanors ,felonies, etc.. The research for your picks would require prior arrests, not yards gained and of course access to those hard to find juvenile records. Points awarded on a sliding scale according to the severity of the offense. I called it Felony Football, and it is copyrighted.
  2. Pimps? PIMPS?

    Theodore Dalrymple suggests that you should say “Sex Worker Human Resources Managers”.

  3. This looks like a much better use of these new virtual realty devices. Use them to deprogram at risk NFL players out of criminal tendencies and wild behavior that will get them arrested.

  4. “Players who scored below the mean in the researchers’ sample were also about twice as likely to be arrested in the NFL as those who scored above it. … A player’s getting a four-game suspension can be a big deal, competitively and financially.””

    What does it mean “to be arrested in the NFL”? Who are making these arrests? Officials of the National Football League? Or is “arrest” here an inside-football term for being prohibited from playing for a certain number of games?

    • Replies: @ScarletNumber
    No, you are being obtuse.
    , @MKP
    I believe it means "to be arrested [by police, sheriffs or other law enforcement authorities] while employed in the NFL / while listed on an NFL roster." Though I agree it could have been worded more clearly.
    , @Jenner Ickham Errican
    Mark, leave the "gotcha" persnicketiness to me, OK? Learn from a pro.
    , @njguy73
    Hey, don't blame Sailer. Blame the sloppy editors at ESPN.com.

    Man, that site has gone downhill. And I so miss Grantland. Yeah, it had some bleeding-hearts writing for it, but at least they were interesting.
  5. @Mark Spahn (West Seneca, NY)
    "Players who scored below the mean in the researchers’ sample were also about twice as likely to be arrested in the NFL as those who scored above it. ... A player’s getting a four-game suspension can be a big deal, competitively and financially.”"

    What does it mean "to be arrested in the NFL"? Who are making these arrests? Officials of the National Football League? Or is "arrest" here an inside-football term for being prohibited from playing for a certain number of games?

    No, you are being obtuse.

  6. @Mark Spahn (West Seneca, NY)
    "Players who scored below the mean in the researchers’ sample were also about twice as likely to be arrested in the NFL as those who scored above it. ... A player’s getting a four-game suspension can be a big deal, competitively and financially.”"

    What does it mean "to be arrested in the NFL"? Who are making these arrests? Officials of the National Football League? Or is "arrest" here an inside-football term for being prohibited from playing for a certain number of games?

    I believe it means “to be arrested [by police, sheriffs or other law enforcement authorities] while employed in the NFL / while listed on an NFL roster.” Though I agree it could have been worded more clearly.

  7. Might the very tall be discouraged from street crime by the ease of their identification? A 6’9″ guy is going to stand out pretty obviously in a lineup.

    • Replies: @keypusher
    Teenaged Sonny Liston got sent to prison (where he learned to box) because he wore a bright yellow shirt during a robbery. When the cops came looking he was still wearing it. Michael Brown was also pretty easy to identify. The kind of people who commit street crime aren't the kind of people who think things through.

    Black professional athletes commit crime at a much lower rate than the general male black population in their age range, for a lot of reasons, but I suspect higher intelligence and self-discipline are among those reasons. In most athletic pursuits, it's not enough to be talented; you also have to work very hard (though Steve is fond of citing Carl Lewis' low workload -- sprinting seems to be an exception).

    Boxing tends (or tended) to pull people from the very bottom. Liston, young George Foreman, and young Mike Tyson were street criminals and very hard-working boxers. I understand Cus D'Amato had Tyson fight all the time because the only way to keep him out of trouble was to have him train. But it wouldn't have worked if Tyson wasn't willing to train all the time. Of course, part of the training was beating people up, so maybe that's why Tyson was OK with it....
    , @Dennis Dale
    It's not the lineup, where he'll presumably stand alongside other tall guys, but on the street where he stands out in the slouching crowd--ideal target for drive-by shootings, memorable to cops and, like you said, more easily identified by victims.
    I'd be willing to bet there's a good deal of winnowing right there.
    , @Kylie
    "Might the very tall be discouraged from street crime by the ease of their identification? A 6’9″ guy is going to stand out pretty obviously in a lineup."

    The 6'4" "gentle giant", Michael Brown, was not discouraged from shoving and robbing a much smaller store clerk before he was permanently discouraged by a bullet.

    Street crime is not committed by criminal masterminds. The thugs who commit it typically have poor impulse control and little if any future time orientation.
    , @TWS
    I used to see pro athletes up close and on a regular basis. Most are no where near the height listed on their stats. I am just a shade over six four and I was taller than almost the entire Seattle Seahawk team when I met them face to face. A very few linemen were taller. My sister got asked to dance by a rather famous Seattle Super Sonic at a club and she was taller than he was his listed height was six three. She's only five eleven. I once took my son to a basketball camp with kids who later went to college and some played pro ball. I was the tallest guy in the room. They listed my son as six five when he was playing college ball and he was maybe six feet in his stocking feet on a good day.
  8. The obvious question to ask is if they attempted to control for race, and if race is a big factor (obviously it is, I should think).

    Of course, it doesn’t really help much unless these predictions work on a position by position basis. If every corner under serious consideration is black, the race thing isn’t going to get you anywhere. But does Wonderlic do you any good?

  9. @Mark Spahn (West Seneca, NY)
    "Players who scored below the mean in the researchers’ sample were also about twice as likely to be arrested in the NFL as those who scored above it. ... A player’s getting a four-game suspension can be a big deal, competitively and financially.”"

    What does it mean "to be arrested in the NFL"? Who are making these arrests? Officials of the National Football League? Or is "arrest" here an inside-football term for being prohibited from playing for a certain number of games?

    Mark, leave the “gotcha” persnicketiness to me, OK? Learn from a pro.

  10. “One way to study this might be with prison and arrest records by height. My hypothesis would be that very tall black men are underrepresented in prison relative to their share of the population”

    Suge Knight is 6 foot 3 and he is constantly getting in trouble with law enforcement.

    • Replies: @V Vega
    Uh... when you're recorded on video attempting to murder black people by aggressively running them over with your SUV, it makes it difficult for wiggle room in our nation's justice system.
  11. @Dave Pinsen
    Might the very tall be discouraged from street crime by the ease of their identification? A 6'9" guy is going to stand out pretty obviously in a lineup.

    Teenaged Sonny Liston got sent to prison (where he learned to box) because he wore a bright yellow shirt during a robbery. When the cops came looking he was still wearing it. Michael Brown was also pretty easy to identify. The kind of people who commit street crime aren’t the kind of people who think things through.

    Black professional athletes commit crime at a much lower rate than the general male black population in their age range, for a lot of reasons, but I suspect higher intelligence and self-discipline are among those reasons. In most athletic pursuits, it’s not enough to be talented; you also have to work very hard (though Steve is fond of citing Carl Lewis’ low workload — sprinting seems to be an exception).

    Boxing tends (or tended) to pull people from the very bottom. Liston, young George Foreman, and young Mike Tyson were street criminals and very hard-working boxers. I understand Cus D’Amato had Tyson fight all the time because the only way to keep him out of trouble was to have him train. But it wouldn’t have worked if Tyson wasn’t willing to train all the time. Of course, part of the training was beating people up, so maybe that’s why Tyson was OK with it….

    • Replies: @TWS
    You see a fair amount of six foot three to four black and Samoan guys in prisons. I only saw a few really tall black guys. Being a big muscular guy at six four or so gives you a big advantage in strong arm robberies and the like.
    , @Jack Hanson
    You've probably got anger management issues if you're the heavyweight champion of the world, yes.
  12. @Dave Pinsen
    Might the very tall be discouraged from street crime by the ease of their identification? A 6'9" guy is going to stand out pretty obviously in a lineup.

    It’s not the lineup, where he’ll presumably stand alongside other tall guys, but on the street where he stands out in the slouching crowd–ideal target for drive-by shootings, memorable to cops and, like you said, more easily identified by victims.
    I’d be willing to bet there’s a good deal of winnowing right there.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Francis Galton theorized that famous old generals would tend to be short because tall young officers were less likely to get holes shot in their hats and more likely holes shot in their heads.

    I don't know if that proved true or not ...
  13. Might be the opposite. Height can make you naturally intimidating, which would make the thug life more appealing. Better than being a short gang banger who’s going to have a life of getting beat up.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Right, so if there is a shortfall of tall black men in prison, that would point out how strong the protective effect is.
    , @JsP
    I wonder if something like "expecting to be intimidating" escalated the confrontation between the 6'6 300+ lbs. killer and his NFL retiree victim in the recent New Orleans incident.

    I suspect most people would be intimidated by an angry young black man standing about 6'6 350. maybe he didn't have a backup plan when an NFL linebacker stepped out of the car and was loudly unintimidated. so he panicked and started shooting the NFL linebacker.
    , @anonymous

    Better than being a short gang banger who’s going to have a life of getting beat up.
     
    Most of the gangbanger shooters contributing to Chicago's homicide rate are decidedly on the physically un-intimidating side, weights typically on the scrawny punk side. Those that are caught that is; most aren't. This probably holds true for most cities with high black homicide rates.
  14. You don’t need a test to know a lot of NFL players are thugs that will get into trouble. Heck most were already in trouble by the time they hit HS but were protected by the school staff.

    When I was in HS, the jocks of the football team had carte blanch to do as they pleased to other students, even so far as to assault them in the classroom. What happened in the gym locker room was pure sadism and terror.

    And why are whites watching a game dominated by black thugs and bankrolled by white billionaires who hate the lower class whites guts?

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    You sound like you still can't get over being stuffed in lockers by the jocks in high school. Get over it already.
    , @Anonymous
    "And why are whites watching a game dominated by black thugs and bankrolled by white billionaires who hate the lower class whites guts?"

    Good question. I don't relate to or have any interest in pretty much any of the NFL players, and the same goes for the NFL money men. I like watching athletes I feel some kind of connection to, either I'm inspired by them somehow or I find them attractive.

    , @Muse

    And why are whites watching a game dominated by black thugs and bankrolled by white billionaires who hate the lower class whites guts?
     
    If you look at the TV ratings for the NCAA men's basketball tournament and the college football playoffs, you will see there has been a significant drop in the number of viewers.

    Why his happened and whether or not we have reached an inflection point in sports or sports TV viewership remains to be seen.
  15. ““One way to study this might be with prison and arrest records by height. My hypothesis would be that very tall black men are underrepresented in prison relative to their share of the population”

    Suge Knight is 6 foot 3 and he is constantly getting in trouble with law enforcement. OJ Simpson is 6 foot 1, Michael Brown was 6 foot 5, etc.

    Black males who are over 6 feet tall are well represented in thug life.

  16. IMO college athletes have more character than non athletes from similar backgrounds, particularly on the left side of the bell curve. Successful jocks have fit into rigid demanding systems that low char. kids can’t. I remember Royce Clayton talking about more less with more talent than him who never succeeded

    • Replies: @anon
    ...Kids with more talent...
  17. @Hepp
    Might be the opposite. Height can make you naturally intimidating, which would make the thug life more appealing. Better than being a short gang banger who's going to have a life of getting beat up.

    Right, so if there is a shortfall of tall black men in prison, that would point out how strong the protective effect is.

  18. Reggie Harding was a 7-foot-tall center for the Detroit Pistons back in the ’60’s. Hoping to supplement his income, he put on a mask and did an armed robbery of a liquor store where he was also a customer. Upon arrest (and unmasking), the hapless Houdini of the Hardwood asked: “How’d ya know it was me?”

    • Replies: @Paul Jolliffe
    The Detroit Pistons used to have a thing for "geniuses" like that. Personally, I think the arrest story for Marvin "Bad News" Barnes is even better: As a senior at Central High School in Providence, RI, he and his buddies attempted to rob a bus. (A bus?) Anyway, he was identified because he was wearing his state championship jacket with his name embroidered on it.

    Going to Piston games at the old Cobo Arena in downtown Detroit was an event back in the early '70's. Everyone used to show up in their finest, especially the women. . .

    When the Pistons moved to the Silverdome in 1978, somehow the vibe never came all the back.

  19. OT

    Ignore the PC throat clearing, this is not a bad look at how Merkel is in serious trouble by appearing to side with Erdogan in his battle with a German comedian:

    http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/the-erdogan-affair-poses-serious-threat-to-merkel-power-a-1086813.html

  20. @anon
    IMO college athletes have more character than non athletes from similar backgrounds, particularly on the left side of the bell curve. Successful jocks have fit into rigid demanding systems that low char. kids can't. I remember Royce Clayton talking about more less with more talent than him who never succeeded

    …Kids with more talent…

  21. @Jonathan Silber
    Why postpone the inevitable? Any prospect who scores below the mean on the Wonderlic should be suspended for five games and do a year on probation.

    contrast that with law enforcement where when you score too high you don’t get the job.

  22. @Dave Pinsen
    Might the very tall be discouraged from street crime by the ease of their identification? A 6'9" guy is going to stand out pretty obviously in a lineup.

    “Might the very tall be discouraged from street crime by the ease of their identification? A 6’9″ guy is going to stand out pretty obviously in a lineup.”

    The 6’4″ “gentle giant”, Michael Brown, was not discouraged from shoving and robbing a much smaller store clerk before he was permanently discouraged by a bullet.

    Street crime is not committed by criminal masterminds. The thugs who commit it typically have poor impulse control and little if any future time orientation.

  23. @rod1963
    You don't need a test to know a lot of NFL players are thugs that will get into trouble. Heck most were already in trouble by the time they hit HS but were protected by the school staff.

    When I was in HS, the jocks of the football team had carte blanch to do as they pleased to other students, even so far as to assault them in the classroom. What happened in the gym locker room was pure sadism and terror.

    And why are whites watching a game dominated by black thugs and bankrolled by white billionaires who hate the lower class whites guts?

    You sound like you still can’t get over being stuffed in lockers by the jocks in high school. Get over it already.

  24. 25 years ago, Thelma & Louise was unleashed on the country. The film taught us all lessons about feminism and friendship and rape. Oh, and also racism. Thelma wore a t-shirt with the Confederate logo:

    https://youremomdotcom.com/2014/05/06/unlikely-mom-style-icons-thelma-and-louise/

    • Replies: @njguy73
    Don't you know that if you're a woman, surrounded by negative role models, deprived of an education because of a controlling man, you're not liable for any prejudices you may hold?

    Hello? This is, like, Social Justice 101.

  25. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @rod1963
    You don't need a test to know a lot of NFL players are thugs that will get into trouble. Heck most were already in trouble by the time they hit HS but were protected by the school staff.

    When I was in HS, the jocks of the football team had carte blanch to do as they pleased to other students, even so far as to assault them in the classroom. What happened in the gym locker room was pure sadism and terror.

    And why are whites watching a game dominated by black thugs and bankrolled by white billionaires who hate the lower class whites guts?

    “And why are whites watching a game dominated by black thugs and bankrolled by white billionaires who hate the lower class whites guts?”

    Good question. I don’t relate to or have any interest in pretty much any of the NFL players, and the same goes for the NFL money men. I like watching athletes I feel some kind of connection to, either I’m inspired by them somehow or I find them attractive.

  26. Don’t some (most?) states give you prisoner information online, including attributes like height and weight? If so, it would be easy to just take a sample and compare it to the average black height.

    • Replies: @Hepp
    Illinois, for example, gives height and picture. Just start searching random black names like Jackson.

    https://www.illinois.gov/IDOC/OFFENDER/Pages/InmateSearch.aspx
  27. @Hepp
    Don't some (most?) states give you prisoner information online, including attributes like height and weight? If so, it would be easy to just take a sample and compare it to the average black height.

    Illinois, for example, gives height and picture. Just start searching random black names like Jackson.

    https://www.illinois.gov/IDOC/OFFENDER/Pages/InmateSearch.aspx

  28. Height makes people both more intimidating criminals and more successful basketball players, so it might be a wash.

    For basketball, wingspan is more important than height (the two are obviously related) but probably no more useful for criminals.

    To test the hypothesis, I would suggest using the wingspan-to-height ratio which should be negatively associated with criminality.

    One of the recent set of nature vs. nurture sports books suggested that a couple of years ago, JJ Reddick was the only NBA player who did not have a Wing-to-Height ratio > 1.

  29. The Black man who murdered a Greek family in Washington DC a few years ago in a home burglary invasion, was described by authorities as being over 6 feet tall.

  30. @Jonathan Silber
    Why postpone the inevitable? Any prospect who scores below the mean on the Wonderlic should be suspended for five games and do a year on probation.

    Right, because separating cause and effect is exactly what our society needs lots more of.

    I’ll bet you haven’t considered how promising (financially) your future political career is. You too can be president.

  31. Possible confounders:

    1) Tall men of all races are more successful in many fields other than sports. “That 6-foot-5 guy just has leadership qualities I can’t put my finger on.”

    2) Superior nutrition/medical treatment of guys raised in functional families.

    3) Related to 1 and 2, height is correlated with IQ: http://medicalxpress.com/news/2014-03-genetic-link-height-iq.html Although you could possibly control for that in a study.

    • Replies: @Jefferson
    " Related to 1 and 2, height is correlated with IQ:"

    If taller means book smarter, why don't Sub Saharans on average have higher IQs than Orientals and Ashkenazis?

    Why don't most NBA players have an impressive vocabulary? Most of them speak like typical Dindus when they open their mouths. You have your exceptions like Tim Duncan, but he is an anomaly.

  32. @rod1963
    You don't need a test to know a lot of NFL players are thugs that will get into trouble. Heck most were already in trouble by the time they hit HS but were protected by the school staff.

    When I was in HS, the jocks of the football team had carte blanch to do as they pleased to other students, even so far as to assault them in the classroom. What happened in the gym locker room was pure sadism and terror.

    And why are whites watching a game dominated by black thugs and bankrolled by white billionaires who hate the lower class whites guts?

    And why are whites watching a game dominated by black thugs and bankrolled by white billionaires who hate the lower class whites guts?

    If you look at the TV ratings for the NCAA men’s basketball tournament and the college football playoffs, you will see there has been a significant drop in the number of viewers.

    Why his happened and whether or not we have reached an inflection point in sports or sports TV viewership remains to be seen.

  33. Andrew luck has 100s of bodies scattered throughout the California and Indiana wilderness. Whenever he’s caught the wonderlic correlation will smooth out some.

    • Replies: @RaceRealist88
    Maybe he's using that "Luck" to stay out of the police's eyes.

    =^)
  34. This would be a tricky analysis to carry out because you’d need two big sample sizes of heights, one of the general population and the other of the in-trouble population, to find enough potential NBA height individuals. But if anybody ever stumbles upon two such databases, it could be a pretty interesting nature-nurture study of individuals who enjoy very positive nurture due to a semi-random nature factor (height).

    Steve: I’m getting old. I long ago tired of doing research that was ignored because it was not PC. I no longer bother keeping up with research in any of the areas I once worked in. But I believe that the National Longitudinal Study of High School Youth would provide something very close to what you describe. I believe that much of these data are available for free download from The University of Michigan’s Institute for Political and Social Science Research (ICPSR).

  35. @MC
    Possible confounders:

    1) Tall men of all races are more successful in many fields other than sports. "That 6-foot-5 guy just has leadership qualities I can't put my finger on."

    2) Superior nutrition/medical treatment of guys raised in functional families.

    3) Related to 1 and 2, height is correlated with IQ: http://medicalxpress.com/news/2014-03-genetic-link-height-iq.html Although you could possibly control for that in a study.

    ” Related to 1 and 2, height is correlated with IQ:”

    If taller means book smarter, why don’t Sub Saharans on average have higher IQs than Orientals and Ashkenazis?

    Why don’t most NBA players have an impressive vocabulary? Most of them speak like typical Dindus when they open their mouths. You have your exceptions like Tim Duncan, but he is an anomaly.

    • Replies: @MC
    Well, I think obviously the racial correlation drowns out the height correlation. But I would bet that taller Japanese tend to have higher IQs than shorter Japanese, taller Zulus have higher IQ than shorter Zulus, etc.
  36. @Dennis Dale
    It's not the lineup, where he'll presumably stand alongside other tall guys, but on the street where he stands out in the slouching crowd--ideal target for drive-by shootings, memorable to cops and, like you said, more easily identified by victims.
    I'd be willing to bet there's a good deal of winnowing right there.

    Francis Galton theorized that famous old generals would tend to be short because tall young officers were less likely to get holes shot in their hats and more likely holes shot in their heads.

    I don’t know if that proved true or not …

    • Replies: @syonredux
    Reminds me of the famous incident where Oliver Wendell Holmes, jr, is supposed to have yelled “Get down, you damn fool!” to Abraham Lincoln. Here's Holmes' account:

    I remember riding into Fort Stevens and seeing there Mr. Lincoln and one or two civilians - I think the Secretary of War. My general, Wright, was walking on the top of the earthworks. The big guns were firing at a house behind which I believe the enemy to be forming for an assault, and our skirmishers were going up the opposite slope firing as they advanced.

    Some say it was an enlisted man who shouted at Lincoln; others suggest it was General Wright who brusquely ordered Lincoln to safety. But for a certainty, the 6 foot 4 inch Lincoln, in frock coat and top hat, stood peering through field glasses from behind a parapet at the onrushing rebels, bullets whizzing past his head – the only time in American history a sitting president has exposed himself to combat. For Lincoln, however, who routinely moved around Washington without an escort; who walked through Richmond right after its capture; who went to the theater unguarded – making himself a perfect target in the middle of a heated battle was nothing. He was, and always had been, physically fearless. As President, he received hundreds of threatening letters, and heard constantly, of one plot or another, to kill or abduct him. He knew he was in danger, he said, but he just wasn’t going to worry about it. If someone was determined to kill him, he believed, there was nothing to be done about it…


    http://www.shapell.org/manuscript/get-down-you-damn-fool-abraham-lincoln-battle-of-fort-stevens
    , @syonredux
    Reminds me of the famous incident where Oliver Wendell Holmes, jr, is supposed to have yelled “Get down, you damn fool!” to Abraham Lincoln. Here’s Holmes’ how Holmes remembered it:

    I remember riding into Fort Stevens and seeing there Mr. Lincoln and one or two civilians – I think the Secretary of War. My general, Wright, was walking on the top of the earthworks. The big guns were firing at a house behind which I believe the enemy to be forming for an assault, and our skirmishers were going up the opposite slope firing as they advanced.

    Some say it was an enlisted man who shouted at Lincoln; others suggest it was General Wright who brusquely ordered Lincoln to safety. But for a certainty, the 6 foot 4 inch Lincoln, in frock coat and top hat, stood peering through field glasses from behind a parapet at the onrushing rebels, bullets whizzing past his head – the only time in American history a sitting president has exposed himself to combat. For Lincoln, however, who routinely moved around Washington without an escort; who walked through Richmond right after its capture; who went to the theater unguarded – making himself a perfect target in the middle of a heated battle was nothing. He was, and always had been, physically fearless. As President, he received hundreds of threatening letters, and heard constantly, of one plot or another, to kill or abduct him. He knew he was in danger, he said, but he just wasn’t going to worry about it. If someone was determined to kill him, he believed, there was nothing to be done about it…
     
    http://www.shapell.org/manuscript/get-down-you-damn-fool-abraham-lincoln-battle-of-fort-stevens
    , @Anonym
    Taller people are bigger people in general, and bigger people make bigger targets.

    That being said, in the wars the US has engaged since WW2, the K/D ratio has been pretty one-sided.
    , @Cwhatfuture
    I once saw the Medal of Honor winner, Jack Jacobs, speak. He looked to be only about 5'4" or so and he jokingly attributed his survival on the battlefield in Vietnam to his presenting a small target.
    , @Dave Pinsen
    This brings to mind Konstantin Rokossovsky, one of the taller Soviet generals:
    https://twitter.com/dpinsen/status/720116297208590336
  37. According to John Urschel, the Wonderlic was changed in 2014. Urschel graduated from Penn State in 5 years with a bachelor’s and two master’s in math and a 4.0 GPA.

    You scored a 43 out of 50 on the Wonderlic last year, the highest of anyone in your draft class. Were you still disappointed?
    I was obviously very disappointed in myself about the 43! And I’m not going to blame it on the fact that this was the first year that they changed it to a new system, but what I will tell you is man I was prepared for the old system and I was primed to, if not get a 50, get close to it. That was a goal of mine.

    Is the Wonderlic a good indicator of intelligence and future football success?
    I think the old Wonderlic was not as good [as the new test] because some of the questions really depended on your upbringing and your familiarity with certain phrases or sayings, and I think it had some socioeconomic implications. And I think the current Wonderlic is much, much better and does not have any hint of that. Although I wish they would have done it the year after me! I think the Wonderlic, like any intelligence exam, is a very good measure around the average and the median, but once you start getting to the extremes – the extreme highs and extreme lows – I think it loses its accuracy very quickly. And that goes for any type of exam.

    http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/features/meet-john-urschel-nfl-mathlete-and-lover-of-graph-laplacians-20150327?page=2

    Urschel’s father is a retired thoracic surgeon with three master’s degrees in economics, engineering, and math. His mother is an attorney, a former nurse, and has a master’s in biomedical science.

  38. @Steve Sailer
    Francis Galton theorized that famous old generals would tend to be short because tall young officers were less likely to get holes shot in their hats and more likely holes shot in their heads.

    I don't know if that proved true or not ...

    Reminds me of the famous incident where Oliver Wendell Holmes, jr, is supposed to have yelled “Get down, you damn fool!” to Abraham Lincoln. Here’s Holmes’ account:

    I remember riding into Fort Stevens and seeing there Mr. Lincoln and one or two civilians – I think the Secretary of War. My general, Wright, was walking on the top of the earthworks. The big guns were firing at a house behind which I believe the enemy to be forming for an assault, and our skirmishers were going up the opposite slope firing as they advanced.

    Some say it was an enlisted man who shouted at Lincoln; others suggest it was General Wright who brusquely ordered Lincoln to safety. But for a certainty, the 6 foot 4 inch Lincoln, in frock coat and top hat, stood peering through field glasses from behind a parapet at the onrushing rebels, bullets whizzing past his head – the only time in American history a sitting president has exposed himself to combat. For Lincoln, however, who routinely moved around Washington without an escort; who walked through Richmond right after its capture; who went to the theater unguarded – making himself a perfect target in the middle of a heated battle was nothing. He was, and always had been, physically fearless. As President, he received hundreds of threatening letters, and heard constantly, of one plot or another, to kill or abduct him. He knew he was in danger, he said, but he just wasn’t going to worry about it. If someone was determined to kill him, he believed, there was nothing to be done about it…

    http://www.shapell.org/manuscript/get-down-you-damn-fool-abraham-lincoln-battle-of-fort-stevens

    • Replies: @Connecticut Famer
    Heavily "G" weighted for sure.
  39. Medium Score by Profession 1983 Wonderlic
    Systems analyst – 32
    Chemist – 31
    Electrical engineer – 30
    Engineer – 29
    Programmer – 29
    Accountant – 28
    Executive – 28
    Reporter – 28
    Teacher – 28
    Copywriter – 27
    Investment analyst – 27
    Librarian – 27
    Electronics technician – 26
    Salesperson – 25
    Secretary – 24
    Dispatcher – 23
    Drafter – 23
    Electrician – 23
    Nurse – 23
    Bank teller – 22
    Cashier – 21
    Firefighter – 21
    Clerical worker – 21
    Machinist – 21
    Receptionist – 21
    Train conductor – 21
    Craftsman – 18
    Security guard – 17
    Welder – 17
    Warehouseman – 15
    Janitor – 14
    (Reminds me of ACT scores.)

    1984 Wonderlic Scores by NFL Positionn According to Paul Zimmerman, aka Dr. Z
    Offensive tackle – 26
    Center – 25
    Quarterback – 24
    Guard – 23
    Tight end – 22
    Safety – 19
    Linebacker – 19
    Cornerback – 18
    Wide receiver – 17
    Fullback – 17
    Halfback – 16

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wonderlic_test

  40. @Steve Sailer
    Francis Galton theorized that famous old generals would tend to be short because tall young officers were less likely to get holes shot in their hats and more likely holes shot in their heads.

    I don't know if that proved true or not ...

    Reminds me of the famous incident where Oliver Wendell Holmes, jr, is supposed to have yelled “Get down, you damn fool!” to Abraham Lincoln. Here’s Holmes’ how Holmes remembered it:

    I remember riding into Fort Stevens and seeing there Mr. Lincoln and one or two civilians – I think the Secretary of War. My general, Wright, was walking on the top of the earthworks. The big guns were firing at a house behind which I believe the enemy to be forming for an assault, and our skirmishers were going up the opposite slope firing as they advanced.

    Some say it was an enlisted man who shouted at Lincoln; others suggest it was General Wright who brusquely ordered Lincoln to safety. But for a certainty, the 6 foot 4 inch Lincoln, in frock coat and top hat, stood peering through field glasses from behind a parapet at the onrushing rebels, bullets whizzing past his head – the only time in American history a sitting president has exposed himself to combat. For Lincoln, however, who routinely moved around Washington without an escort; who walked through Richmond right after its capture; who went to the theater unguarded – making himself a perfect target in the middle of a heated battle was nothing. He was, and always had been, physically fearless. As President, he received hundreds of threatening letters, and heard constantly, of one plot or another, to kill or abduct him. He knew he was in danger, he said, but he just wasn’t going to worry about it. If someone was determined to kill him, he believed, there was nothing to be done about it…

    http://www.shapell.org/manuscript/get-down-you-damn-fool-abraham-lincoln-battle-of-fort-stevens

  41. @Steve Sailer
    Francis Galton theorized that famous old generals would tend to be short because tall young officers were less likely to get holes shot in their hats and more likely holes shot in their heads.

    I don't know if that proved true or not ...

    Taller people are bigger people in general, and bigger people make bigger targets.

    That being said, in the wars the US has engaged since WW2, the K/D ratio has been pretty one-sided.

  42. OT (somewhat): WSJ suggests that teachers manipulating scores to help kids pass might be a good idea.

    “There are a number of different social goals in play here,” Mr. Dee said. “We may value consistency in scoring procedures as a mark of fairness. On the other hand, we may think as well that proximity to the threshold has a natural variance and if teachers have additional information, that [manipulation] may be a good thing.”

    http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2016/04/12/do-cheaters-ever-prosper-a-lesson-from-n-y-student-tests/

    • Replies: @Triumph104
    What is really sad is that some Regents exams can be passed with a scale score of 65 by only answering 35 percent of the questions correctly.

    http://www.nysedregents.org/algebraone/615/algone62015-cc.pdf

    There is even cheating in college:

    The case comes less than three months after the NCAA concluded that a former assistant football coach at the University of Louisiana at Lafayette made arrangements with the head of a Mississippi testing center to falsify the ACT scores of players and recruits.
     
    https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2016/04/11/ncaa-finds-southern-mississippi-basketball-staff-committed-academic-fraud
  43. @Jefferson
    "One way to study this might be with prison and arrest records by height. My hypothesis would be that very tall black men are underrepresented in prison relative to their share of the population"

    Suge Knight is 6 foot 3 and he is constantly getting in trouble with law enforcement.

    Uh… when you’re recorded on video attempting to murder black people by aggressively running them over with your SUV, it makes it difficult for wiggle room in our nation’s justice system.

  44. @Steve Sailer
    Francis Galton theorized that famous old generals would tend to be short because tall young officers were less likely to get holes shot in their hats and more likely holes shot in their heads.

    I don't know if that proved true or not ...

    I once saw the Medal of Honor winner, Jack Jacobs, speak. He looked to be only about 5’4″ or so and he jokingly attributed his survival on the battlefield in Vietnam to his presenting a small target.

  45. The Bell Curve 101.

  46. Sorting by Wonderlic score presumably sorts by race (ahem) as well.

    Is this correlation really just showing that white people are less jail prone than PoCs?

  47. @Mark Spahn (West Seneca, NY)
    "Players who scored below the mean in the researchers’ sample were also about twice as likely to be arrested in the NFL as those who scored above it. ... A player’s getting a four-game suspension can be a big deal, competitively and financially.”"

    What does it mean "to be arrested in the NFL"? Who are making these arrests? Officials of the National Football League? Or is "arrest" here an inside-football term for being prohibited from playing for a certain number of games?

    Hey, don’t blame Sailer. Blame the sloppy editors at ESPN.com.

    Man, that site has gone downhill. And I so miss Grantland. Yeah, it had some bleeding-hearts writing for it, but at least they were interesting.

  48. We have enough data–directly on some genes, but perfectly adequately just on parental behaviors–to eliminate a good bit, perhaps most criminality by simply doing “good housekeeping” eugenics.

    Unfortunately it’s all highly tied up with race and we have to hear about “racism!” and “Hitler!” and all that shit.

    But the key to success in the modern world is human capital–human capability. The winners are going to be nations that figure out how to get–setup incentives for–eugenic fertility. Probably be Chinese and\or other East Asians.

    We’re stuck with our “betters” giving us endless lectures about Hitler, Hitler, Hitler … and are basically doomed.

  49. @mack
    25 years ago, Thelma & Louise was unleashed on the country. The film taught us all lessons about feminism and friendship and rape. Oh, and also racism. Thelma wore a t-shirt with the Confederate logo:

    https://youremomdotcom.com/2014/05/06/unlikely-mom-style-icons-thelma-and-louise/

    Don’t you know that if you’re a woman, surrounded by negative role models, deprived of an education because of a controlling man, you’re not liable for any prejudices you may hold?

    Hello? This is, like, Social Justice 101.

  50. I wonder what the arrest rates are by race, once normed for Wonderlic score?

  51. @Frau Katze
    OT (somewhat): WSJ suggests that teachers manipulating scores to help kids pass might be a good idea.

    “There are a number of different social goals in play here,” Mr. Dee said. “We may value consistency in scoring procedures as a mark of fairness. On the other hand, we may think as well that proximity to the threshold has a natural variance and if teachers have additional information, that [manipulation] may be a good thing.”

    http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2016/04/12/do-cheaters-ever-prosper-a-lesson-from-n-y-student-tests/

    What is really sad is that some Regents exams can be passed with a scale score of 65 by only answering 35 percent of the questions correctly.

    http://www.nysedregents.org/algebraone/615/algone62015-cc.pdf

    There is even cheating in college:

    The case comes less than three months after the NCAA concluded that a former assistant football coach at the University of Louisiana at Lafayette made arrangements with the head of a Mississippi testing center to falsify the ACT scores of players and recruits.

    https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2016/04/11/ncaa-finds-southern-mississippi-basketball-staff-committed-academic-fraud

  52. players with publicly-documented pre-draft arrests were nearly twice as likely to be arrested after reaching the NFL than those who had not been arrested.

    Wow!! What could that ratio be in the population overall, 10? 20? 100?

    Think what that factor of (merely) 2 says about the tendencies of even NFL players who don’t have a record.

    • Replies: @Triumph104
    Why would you compare them to the overall population except for shock value? The NFL doesn't have children, women, or older men. NFL players are less like to be arrested than adult men of any age and far less like to be arrested than men ages 20-35.


    http://deadspin.com/what-do-arrests-data-really-say-about-nfl-players-and-c-733301399

  53. […] post, Wonderlic IQ Test Helps Predict NFL Arrest Rates, concerns a study published by a group of psychological researchers seeking to isolate various data […]

  54. @Steve Sailer
    Francis Galton theorized that famous old generals would tend to be short because tall young officers were less likely to get holes shot in their hats and more likely holes shot in their heads.

    I don't know if that proved true or not ...

    This brings to mind Konstantin Rokossovsky, one of the taller Soviet generals:

  55. I’m kind of surprised there are still social scientists that will research this kind of topic, and then manage to get it published. I guess psychology hasn’t been as zealous in ruining careers as anthropology and sociology have been, there haven’t been enough two minutes hate sessions apparently.

    • Replies: @Brutusale
    It's the NFL. Even the SJW crowd is aware of the social pathologies football players bring with them. The fact that they knock out (Ray Rice)/kill (Rae Carruth/Jovan Belcher) their wives and girlfriends in a public manner doesn't help.
  56. That thoroughly discredited tome of pseudoscience known as “The Bell Curve” manages to get it right once again.

  57. @Hepp
    Might be the opposite. Height can make you naturally intimidating, which would make the thug life more appealing. Better than being a short gang banger who's going to have a life of getting beat up.

    I wonder if something like “expecting to be intimidating” escalated the confrontation between the 6’6 300+ lbs. killer and his NFL retiree victim in the recent New Orleans incident.

    I suspect most people would be intimidated by an angry young black man standing about 6’6 350. maybe he didn’t have a backup plan when an NFL linebacker stepped out of the car and was loudly unintimidated. so he panicked and started shooting the NFL linebacker.

  58. I’m a tall white guy. 6’5″

    People tend to defer to me. That is, in public spaces, people tend to approach me with their problems, like getting directions, asking for the time, etc. Kids come up to me asking if I want to do this, that, or the other.

    Recently, I was at a tourist location, and some 4 year old kid walked up to me while I was clearly busy doing something, and asked if I wanted to pet her dog. I said, “no, that’s okay.” That didn’t stop her. She went on about why her dog was pet-worthy. By then 3 or 4 people were glaring at me as if to say, “pet the dog, you piece of shit,” so I relented, and pet the dog. Her father was standing off to the side, winked at me, and said, “thank you.”

    Also, in groups, I get picked out. If I’m as some gathering that requires a “volunteer” to get up in front of a crowd, I don’t care if it’s a country fair, a comedy show, or someone demonstrating a blender at Costco, I tend to get called on by whomever. I hate this.

    It can’t be because I emit welcoming vibes, because I like to think I emit the opposite. Regardless, I’m always astounded at times people walk through a crowd, pushing people aside, to get to me to ask directions to wherever or help with some trivial thing, or just come up to strike up a conversation at times when an average person might detect I was busy doing whatever. It’s obvious they’re interrupting me, and they don’t care.

    I’ve asked friends why this is, since they’ve seen it happen. One said, “because you look tall and trustworthy.” I said, “but why don’t they pick up on the fact that I don’t like people all that much?” My friend said, “Maybe they detect that, so ask you for favors because they know you’ll do it to get rid of them.”

    Admittedly, it’s a convoluted theory, but that’s all I got.

    Or maybe it’s just because I’m tall, nothing more, and that trumps my furrowed brow that indicates my general disdain for humanity.

    My experience is we tall guys do get a little bit of special consideration amongst the teeming masses, at any rate. We have to work a little harder to prove we’re assholes. I’m not asking for sympathy. We all have challenges.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Before GPS, I got asked for directions a lot too, especially when I was in London in 1980. The first time I said was from America and was just as lost, but after that I realized that I, unlike Londoners, was carrying a giant map of London, which was extremely helpful in showing people where to go.
    , @The Last Real Calvinist

    Also, in groups, I get picked out. If I’m as some gathering that requires a “volunteer” to get up in front of a crowd, I don’t care if it’s a country fair, a comedy show, or someone demonstrating a blender at Costco, I tend to get called on by whomever. I hate this.

    It can’t be because I emit welcoming vibes, because I like to think I emit the opposite.

    ...

    My experience is we tall guys do get a little bit of special consideration amongst the teeming masses, at any rate. We have to work a little harder to prove we’re assholes.
     
    You're telling my story, TallBro! (I'm also 6' 5".) I'm fairly introverted, but I feel as if I've developed, over many years, a kind of public persona that's generally perceived as approachable and interpersonally competent.

    Maybe it starts with being a huge kid and looking older than one's age, so weary teachers pick on us when no one else raises a hand, so we react by trying to be someone we're really not, and then it just rolls on from there . . . .
    , @The Last Real Calvinist

    Also, in groups, I get picked out. If I’m as some gathering that requires a “volunteer” to get up in front of a crowd, I don’t care if it’s a country fair, a comedy show, or someone demonstrating a blender at Costco, I tend to get called on by whomever. I hate this.

    It can’t be because I emit welcoming vibes, because I like to think I emit the opposite.

    ...

    My experience is we tall guys do get a little bit of special consideration amongst the teeming masses, at any rate. We have to work a little harder to prove we’re assholes.
     
    You're telling my story, TallBro! (I'm also 6' 5".) I'm fairly introverted, but I feel as if I've developed, over many years, a kind of public persona that's generally perceived as approachable and interpersonally competent.

    Maybe it starts with being huge kids who look older than our age, so weary teachers pick on us when no one else raises a hand, and we react by trying to be someone we're really not, and then it just rolls on from there . . . .
  59. Re: height and crime correlation

    Lots of data from “Handbook of Crime Correlates” by Lee Ellis, Kevin M. Beaver, John Wright https://books.google.com/books?id=BPlslrrgQyoCprintsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

    Page 194: From Table 8.4.2a, one can see that there tends to be more criminality among individuals who are taller.

    As indicated in Table 8.4.3a, all available studies have reported significant tendencies for criminals and delinquents to be more mesomorphic (muscular) than their nonoffending peers.

    The section on IQ and crime is conveniently omitted by Google.

  60. @V Vega
    I'm a tall white guy. 6'5"

    People tend to defer to me. That is, in public spaces, people tend to approach me with their problems, like getting directions, asking for the time, etc. Kids come up to me asking if I want to do this, that, or the other.

    Recently, I was at a tourist location, and some 4 year old kid walked up to me while I was clearly busy doing something, and asked if I wanted to pet her dog. I said, "no, that's okay." That didn't stop her. She went on about why her dog was pet-worthy. By then 3 or 4 people were glaring at me as if to say, "pet the dog, you piece of shit," so I relented, and pet the dog. Her father was standing off to the side, winked at me, and said, "thank you."

    Also, in groups, I get picked out. If I'm as some gathering that requires a "volunteer" to get up in front of a crowd, I don't care if it's a country fair, a comedy show, or someone demonstrating a blender at Costco, I tend to get called on by whomever. I hate this.

    It can't be because I emit welcoming vibes, because I like to think I emit the opposite. Regardless, I'm always astounded at times people walk through a crowd, pushing people aside, to get to me to ask directions to wherever or help with some trivial thing, or just come up to strike up a conversation at times when an average person might detect I was busy doing whatever. It's obvious they're interrupting me, and they don't care.

    I've asked friends why this is, since they've seen it happen. One said, "because you look tall and trustworthy." I said, "but why don't they pick up on the fact that I don't like people all that much?" My friend said, "Maybe they detect that, so ask you for favors because they know you'll do it to get rid of them."

    Admittedly, it's a convoluted theory, but that's all I got.

    Or maybe it's just because I'm tall, nothing more, and that trumps my furrowed brow that indicates my general disdain for humanity.

    My experience is we tall guys do get a little bit of special consideration amongst the teeming masses, at any rate. We have to work a little harder to prove we're assholes. I'm not asking for sympathy. We all have challenges.

    Before GPS, I got asked for directions a lot too, especially when I was in London in 1980. The first time I said was from America and was just as lost, but after that I realized that I, unlike Londoners, was carrying a giant map of London, which was extremely helpful in showing people where to go.

    • Replies: @Ivy
    Being tall has a few advantages like being able to see over the tops of heads in a crowd. There is probably some (sub)conscious impetus to those questions. Contrast with Japan, for example, where the 'tall nail' gets hammered down, although I wonder how that is changing with more protein in diets and increasing average height.
  61. The proposal to use height as a proxy for athletic opportunities (and therefore as a negative crime predictor) will not work due to the correlation between height and other explanatory variables such as IQ, health, and emotional stress in childhood.

  62. @V Vega
    I'm a tall white guy. 6'5"

    People tend to defer to me. That is, in public spaces, people tend to approach me with their problems, like getting directions, asking for the time, etc. Kids come up to me asking if I want to do this, that, or the other.

    Recently, I was at a tourist location, and some 4 year old kid walked up to me while I was clearly busy doing something, and asked if I wanted to pet her dog. I said, "no, that's okay." That didn't stop her. She went on about why her dog was pet-worthy. By then 3 or 4 people were glaring at me as if to say, "pet the dog, you piece of shit," so I relented, and pet the dog. Her father was standing off to the side, winked at me, and said, "thank you."

    Also, in groups, I get picked out. If I'm as some gathering that requires a "volunteer" to get up in front of a crowd, I don't care if it's a country fair, a comedy show, or someone demonstrating a blender at Costco, I tend to get called on by whomever. I hate this.

    It can't be because I emit welcoming vibes, because I like to think I emit the opposite. Regardless, I'm always astounded at times people walk through a crowd, pushing people aside, to get to me to ask directions to wherever or help with some trivial thing, or just come up to strike up a conversation at times when an average person might detect I was busy doing whatever. It's obvious they're interrupting me, and they don't care.

    I've asked friends why this is, since they've seen it happen. One said, "because you look tall and trustworthy." I said, "but why don't they pick up on the fact that I don't like people all that much?" My friend said, "Maybe they detect that, so ask you for favors because they know you'll do it to get rid of them."

    Admittedly, it's a convoluted theory, but that's all I got.

    Or maybe it's just because I'm tall, nothing more, and that trumps my furrowed brow that indicates my general disdain for humanity.

    My experience is we tall guys do get a little bit of special consideration amongst the teeming masses, at any rate. We have to work a little harder to prove we're assholes. I'm not asking for sympathy. We all have challenges.

    Also, in groups, I get picked out. If I’m as some gathering that requires a “volunteer” to get up in front of a crowd, I don’t care if it’s a country fair, a comedy show, or someone demonstrating a blender at Costco, I tend to get called on by whomever. I hate this.

    It can’t be because I emit welcoming vibes, because I like to think I emit the opposite.

    My experience is we tall guys do get a little bit of special consideration amongst the teeming masses, at any rate. We have to work a little harder to prove we’re assholes.

    You’re telling my story, TallBro! (I’m also 6′ 5″.) I’m fairly introverted, but I feel as if I’ve developed, over many years, a kind of public persona that’s generally perceived as approachable and interpersonally competent.

    Maybe it starts with being a huge kid and looking older than one’s age, so weary teachers pick on us when no one else raises a hand, so we react by trying to be someone we’re really not, and then it just rolls on from there . . . .

  63. @V Vega
    I'm a tall white guy. 6'5"

    People tend to defer to me. That is, in public spaces, people tend to approach me with their problems, like getting directions, asking for the time, etc. Kids come up to me asking if I want to do this, that, or the other.

    Recently, I was at a tourist location, and some 4 year old kid walked up to me while I was clearly busy doing something, and asked if I wanted to pet her dog. I said, "no, that's okay." That didn't stop her. She went on about why her dog was pet-worthy. By then 3 or 4 people were glaring at me as if to say, "pet the dog, you piece of shit," so I relented, and pet the dog. Her father was standing off to the side, winked at me, and said, "thank you."

    Also, in groups, I get picked out. If I'm as some gathering that requires a "volunteer" to get up in front of a crowd, I don't care if it's a country fair, a comedy show, or someone demonstrating a blender at Costco, I tend to get called on by whomever. I hate this.

    It can't be because I emit welcoming vibes, because I like to think I emit the opposite. Regardless, I'm always astounded at times people walk through a crowd, pushing people aside, to get to me to ask directions to wherever or help with some trivial thing, or just come up to strike up a conversation at times when an average person might detect I was busy doing whatever. It's obvious they're interrupting me, and they don't care.

    I've asked friends why this is, since they've seen it happen. One said, "because you look tall and trustworthy." I said, "but why don't they pick up on the fact that I don't like people all that much?" My friend said, "Maybe they detect that, so ask you for favors because they know you'll do it to get rid of them."

    Admittedly, it's a convoluted theory, but that's all I got.

    Or maybe it's just because I'm tall, nothing more, and that trumps my furrowed brow that indicates my general disdain for humanity.

    My experience is we tall guys do get a little bit of special consideration amongst the teeming masses, at any rate. We have to work a little harder to prove we're assholes. I'm not asking for sympathy. We all have challenges.

    Also, in groups, I get picked out. If I’m as some gathering that requires a “volunteer” to get up in front of a crowd, I don’t care if it’s a country fair, a comedy show, or someone demonstrating a blender at Costco, I tend to get called on by whomever. I hate this.

    It can’t be because I emit welcoming vibes, because I like to think I emit the opposite.

    My experience is we tall guys do get a little bit of special consideration amongst the teeming masses, at any rate. We have to work a little harder to prove we’re assholes.

    You’re telling my story, TallBro! (I’m also 6′ 5″.) I’m fairly introverted, but I feel as if I’ve developed, over many years, a kind of public persona that’s generally perceived as approachable and interpersonally competent.

    Maybe it starts with being huge kids who look older than our age, so weary teachers pick on us when no one else raises a hand, and we react by trying to be someone we’re really not, and then it just rolls on from there . . . .

  64. By the way, I’ve always been interested in the flip side of this question: how much does athletic talent help youths stay out of career-disastrous entanglements with the law?

    ————————————–

    You then go on to discuss this question in terms of Nurture.
    But do we not need to first consider which way the arrow of causation runs:

    a) Athletic TALENT is Nature.
    b) Is it not possible that those born with athletic talent are also born with less disposition to crime, compared to those less fortunate souls who are born with no talents at all?

    In which case, the factors you mentioned about having greater access to legal resources etc., may not be as relevant.

  65. @Jonathan Silber
    Why postpone the inevitable? Any prospect who scores below the mean on the Wonderlic should be suspended for five games and do a year on probation.

    Jonathon, Years ago I had an article published in the local news where I described a new Fantasy Football league were you choose only college and NFL miscreants and then hoped for the worse. Points awarded for DUIs, battery, drug possession and assorted misdemeanors ,felonies, etc.. The research for your picks would require prior arrests, not yards gained and of course access to those hard to find juvenile records. Points awarded on a sliding scale according to the severity of the offense. I called it Felony Football, and it is copyrighted.

    • Replies: @Jonathan Silber
    Your Felony Football League sounds right up my alley, Buffalo Joe.

    I could field a Super-Bowl-quality team of my own picking exclusively from the neighborhood of Englewood in my old hometown Chicago.

    But after a weekend or two of the usual shootings going down, my team would probably be playing short-handed.
    , @Brutusale
    I've been in a AL-only fantasy baseball league with the same group of guys since 1986. In 1993 we decided to do an NL league, and I decided to draft all the felons, rule-breakers and malcontents available. Lenny Dykstra, Kevin Mitchell, etc.

    My team won going away.
  66. @Unladen Swallow
    I'm kind of surprised there are still social scientists that will research this kind of topic, and then manage to get it published. I guess psychology hasn't been as zealous in ruining careers as anthropology and sociology have been, there haven't been enough two minutes hate sessions apparently.

    It’s the NFL. Even the SJW crowd is aware of the social pathologies football players bring with them. The fact that they knock out (Ray Rice)/kill (Rae Carruth/Jovan Belcher) their wives and girlfriends in a public manner doesn’t help.

    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    Brutus, having a Rae Carruth or Jovan Belcher on a Felony Football team would have put you in the Super Bowl.
  67. @Dave Pinsen
    Might the very tall be discouraged from street crime by the ease of their identification? A 6'9" guy is going to stand out pretty obviously in a lineup.

    I used to see pro athletes up close and on a regular basis. Most are no where near the height listed on their stats. I am just a shade over six four and I was taller than almost the entire Seattle Seahawk team when I met them face to face. A very few linemen were taller. My sister got asked to dance by a rather famous Seattle Super Sonic at a club and she was taller than he was his listed height was six three. She’s only five eleven. I once took my son to a basketball camp with kids who later went to college and some played pro ball. I was the tallest guy in the room. They listed my son as six five when he was playing college ball and he was maybe six feet in his stocking feet on a good day.

  68. @keypusher
    Teenaged Sonny Liston got sent to prison (where he learned to box) because he wore a bright yellow shirt during a robbery. When the cops came looking he was still wearing it. Michael Brown was also pretty easy to identify. The kind of people who commit street crime aren't the kind of people who think things through.

    Black professional athletes commit crime at a much lower rate than the general male black population in their age range, for a lot of reasons, but I suspect higher intelligence and self-discipline are among those reasons. In most athletic pursuits, it's not enough to be talented; you also have to work very hard (though Steve is fond of citing Carl Lewis' low workload -- sprinting seems to be an exception).

    Boxing tends (or tended) to pull people from the very bottom. Liston, young George Foreman, and young Mike Tyson were street criminals and very hard-working boxers. I understand Cus D'Amato had Tyson fight all the time because the only way to keep him out of trouble was to have him train. But it wouldn't have worked if Tyson wasn't willing to train all the time. Of course, part of the training was beating people up, so maybe that's why Tyson was OK with it....

    You see a fair amount of six foot three to four black and Samoan guys in prisons. I only saw a few really tall black guys. Being a big muscular guy at six four or so gives you a big advantage in strong arm robberies and the like.

    • Replies: @Jefferson
    "You see a fair amount of six foot three to four black and Samoan guys in prisons. I only saw a few really tall black guys. Being a big muscular guy at six four or so gives you a big advantage in strong arm robberies and the like."

    Not many Black thugs are as short as Kendrick Lamar and Kevin Hart.

  69. The most deplorable one [AKA "Fourth doorman of the apocalypse"] says:

    Doesn’t the Story of O(J) tell us that nature always wins out?

  70. OT: It was been revealed that Dennis Hastert used to sit in an easy chair and watch the boys in the shower. People were so innocent in those days. Nobody thought that this was suspicious. Think about it. All those years, Hastert watched beautiful young boys flaunting their naked bodies at him, seducing him. Someone should have warned him. That all young boys are shameless sluts. If someone had warned him, Hastert could have avoided this. Now he lives in shame. There is a lesson for all of us in this.

  71. @Brutusale
    It's the NFL. Even the SJW crowd is aware of the social pathologies football players bring with them. The fact that they knock out (Ray Rice)/kill (Rae Carruth/Jovan Belcher) their wives and girlfriends in a public manner doesn't help.

    Brutus, having a Rae Carruth or Jovan Belcher on a Felony Football team would have put you in the Super Bowl.

  72. @syonredux
    Reminds me of the famous incident where Oliver Wendell Holmes, jr, is supposed to have yelled “Get down, you damn fool!” to Abraham Lincoln. Here's Holmes' account:

    I remember riding into Fort Stevens and seeing there Mr. Lincoln and one or two civilians - I think the Secretary of War. My general, Wright, was walking on the top of the earthworks. The big guns were firing at a house behind which I believe the enemy to be forming for an assault, and our skirmishers were going up the opposite slope firing as they advanced.

    Some say it was an enlisted man who shouted at Lincoln; others suggest it was General Wright who brusquely ordered Lincoln to safety. But for a certainty, the 6 foot 4 inch Lincoln, in frock coat and top hat, stood peering through field glasses from behind a parapet at the onrushing rebels, bullets whizzing past his head – the only time in American history a sitting president has exposed himself to combat. For Lincoln, however, who routinely moved around Washington without an escort; who walked through Richmond right after its capture; who went to the theater unguarded – making himself a perfect target in the middle of a heated battle was nothing. He was, and always had been, physically fearless. As President, he received hundreds of threatening letters, and heard constantly, of one plot or another, to kill or abduct him. He knew he was in danger, he said, but he just wasn’t going to worry about it. If someone was determined to kill him, he believed, there was nothing to be done about it…


    http://www.shapell.org/manuscript/get-down-you-damn-fool-abraham-lincoln-battle-of-fort-stevens

    Heavily “G” weighted for sure.

  73. @Steve Sailer
    Before GPS, I got asked for directions a lot too, especially when I was in London in 1980. The first time I said was from America and was just as lost, but after that I realized that I, unlike Londoners, was carrying a giant map of London, which was extremely helpful in showing people where to go.

    Being tall has a few advantages like being able to see over the tops of heads in a crowd. There is probably some (sub)conscious impetus to those questions. Contrast with Japan, for example, where the ‘tall nail’ gets hammered down, although I wonder how that is changing with more protein in diets and increasing average height.

  74. @keypusher
    Teenaged Sonny Liston got sent to prison (where he learned to box) because he wore a bright yellow shirt during a robbery. When the cops came looking he was still wearing it. Michael Brown was also pretty easy to identify. The kind of people who commit street crime aren't the kind of people who think things through.

    Black professional athletes commit crime at a much lower rate than the general male black population in their age range, for a lot of reasons, but I suspect higher intelligence and self-discipline are among those reasons. In most athletic pursuits, it's not enough to be talented; you also have to work very hard (though Steve is fond of citing Carl Lewis' low workload -- sprinting seems to be an exception).

    Boxing tends (or tended) to pull people from the very bottom. Liston, young George Foreman, and young Mike Tyson were street criminals and very hard-working boxers. I understand Cus D'Amato had Tyson fight all the time because the only way to keep him out of trouble was to have him train. But it wouldn't have worked if Tyson wasn't willing to train all the time. Of course, part of the training was beating people up, so maybe that's why Tyson was OK with it....

    You’ve probably got anger management issues if you’re the heavyweight champion of the world, yes.

  75. @International Jew

    players with publicly-documented pre-draft arrests were nearly twice as likely to be arrested after reaching the NFL than those who had not been arrested.
     
    Wow!! What could that ratio be in the population overall, 10? 20? 100?

    Think what that factor of (merely) 2 says about the tendencies of even NFL players who don't have a record.

    Why would you compare them to the overall population except for shock value? The NFL doesn’t have children, women, or older men. NFL players are less like to be arrested than adult men of any age and far less like to be arrested than men ages 20-35.

    http://deadspin.com/what-do-arrests-data-really-say-about-nfl-players-and-c-733301399

    • Replies: @International Jew
    That's an interesting link, thanks. Indeed, it looks like NFL players are about the best-behaved young men anywhere!

    How sure are we, though, that those 664 arrests are the whole thing? If a third-string center nobody cares about gets arrested, does it get reported, reliably, that the guy was an NFL player? We could check, if we looked at the playing time of each arrested player, and compared it to the playing time distribution of the overall population of NFL players.

    If it is indeed true that NFL players get arrested so rarely (relative to their age and sex cohort of course), then that 2:1 ratio I found so amazing...well, it remains amazing, though for a different reason: it says that just as NFL players as a whole are well behaved, NFL players with previous police records are spectacularly well behaved compared to other people who have police records.

    And, no, I didn't intend to shock.

  76. @Buffalo Joe
    Jonathon, Years ago I had an article published in the local news where I described a new Fantasy Football league were you choose only college and NFL miscreants and then hoped for the worse. Points awarded for DUIs, battery, drug possession and assorted misdemeanors ,felonies, etc.. The research for your picks would require prior arrests, not yards gained and of course access to those hard to find juvenile records. Points awarded on a sliding scale according to the severity of the offense. I called it Felony Football, and it is copyrighted.

    Your Felony Football League sounds right up my alley, Buffalo Joe.

    I could field a Super-Bowl-quality team of my own picking exclusively from the neighborhood of Englewood in my old hometown Chicago.

    But after a weekend or two of the usual shootings going down, my team would probably be playing short-handed.

  77. anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Hepp
    Might be the opposite. Height can make you naturally intimidating, which would make the thug life more appealing. Better than being a short gang banger who's going to have a life of getting beat up.

    Better than being a short gang banger who’s going to have a life of getting beat up.

    Most of the gangbanger shooters contributing to Chicago’s homicide rate are decidedly on the physically un-intimidating side, weights typically on the scrawny punk side. Those that are caught that is; most aren’t. This probably holds true for most cities with high black homicide rates.

  78. @Buffalo Joe
    Jonathon, Years ago I had an article published in the local news where I described a new Fantasy Football league were you choose only college and NFL miscreants and then hoped for the worse. Points awarded for DUIs, battery, drug possession and assorted misdemeanors ,felonies, etc.. The research for your picks would require prior arrests, not yards gained and of course access to those hard to find juvenile records. Points awarded on a sliding scale according to the severity of the offense. I called it Felony Football, and it is copyrighted.

    I’ve been in a AL-only fantasy baseball league with the same group of guys since 1986. In 1993 we decided to do an NL league, and I decided to draft all the felons, rule-breakers and malcontents available. Lenny Dykstra, Kevin Mitchell, etc.

    My team won going away.

  79. @SteveRogers42
    Reggie Harding was a 7-foot-tall center for the Detroit Pistons back in the '60's. Hoping to supplement his income, he put on a mask and did an armed robbery of a liquor store where he was also a customer. Upon arrest (and unmasking), the hapless Houdini of the Hardwood asked: "How'd ya know it was me?"

    The Detroit Pistons used to have a thing for “geniuses” like that. Personally, I think the arrest story for Marvin “Bad News” Barnes is even better: As a senior at Central High School in Providence, RI, he and his buddies attempted to rob a bus. (A bus?) Anyway, he was identified because he was wearing his state championship jacket with his name embroidered on it.

    Going to Piston games at the old Cobo Arena in downtown Detroit was an event back in the early ’70’s. Everyone used to show up in their finest, especially the women. . .

    When the Pistons moved to the Silverdome in 1978, somehow the vibe never came all the back.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Kareem Abdul Jabbar wrote about the fans at Cobo Arena. They would jump out of their seat and hi-five people in different rows after a great play.
  80. My knuckledraggin’ Hillbilly Occam’s razor take on all of this fancy parlor psycho-babble:

    Leave it to The Mob sports bookmakers to set the “entanglement” odds on Dullard Dindu Thug-a-Letes.

  81. @TWS
    You see a fair amount of six foot three to four black and Samoan guys in prisons. I only saw a few really tall black guys. Being a big muscular guy at six four or so gives you a big advantage in strong arm robberies and the like.

    “You see a fair amount of six foot three to four black and Samoan guys in prisons. I only saw a few really tall black guys. Being a big muscular guy at six four or so gives you a big advantage in strong arm robberies and the like.”

    Not many Black thugs are as short as Kendrick Lamar and Kevin Hart.

  82. “Wonderlic IQ Test Helps Predict NFL Arrest Rates”

    And I imagine that if you take out the words “Wonderlic” and “NFL” the sentence is just as true.

  83. @scottt
    Andrew luck has 100s of bodies scattered throughout the California and Indiana wilderness. Whenever he's caught the wonderlic correlation will smooth out some.

    Maybe he’s using that “Luck” to stay out of the police’s eyes.

    =^)

  84. @Jefferson
    " Related to 1 and 2, height is correlated with IQ:"

    If taller means book smarter, why don't Sub Saharans on average have higher IQs than Orientals and Ashkenazis?

    Why don't most NBA players have an impressive vocabulary? Most of them speak like typical Dindus when they open their mouths. You have your exceptions like Tim Duncan, but he is an anomaly.

    Well, I think obviously the racial correlation drowns out the height correlation. But I would bet that taller Japanese tend to have higher IQs than shorter Japanese, taller Zulus have higher IQ than shorter Zulus, etc.

  85. @Triumph104
    Why would you compare them to the overall population except for shock value? The NFL doesn't have children, women, or older men. NFL players are less like to be arrested than adult men of any age and far less like to be arrested than men ages 20-35.


    http://deadspin.com/what-do-arrests-data-really-say-about-nfl-players-and-c-733301399

    That’s an interesting link, thanks. Indeed, it looks like NFL players are about the best-behaved young men anywhere!

    How sure are we, though, that those 664 arrests are the whole thing? If a third-string center nobody cares about gets arrested, does it get reported, reliably, that the guy was an NFL player? We could check, if we looked at the playing time of each arrested player, and compared it to the playing time distribution of the overall population of NFL players.

    If it is indeed true that NFL players get arrested so rarely (relative to their age and sex cohort of course), then that 2:1 ratio I found so amazing…well, it remains amazing, though for a different reason: it says that just as NFL players as a whole are well behaved, NFL players with previous police records are spectacularly well behaved compared to other people who have police records.

    And, no, I didn’t intend to shock.

  86. @Paul Jolliffe
    The Detroit Pistons used to have a thing for "geniuses" like that. Personally, I think the arrest story for Marvin "Bad News" Barnes is even better: As a senior at Central High School in Providence, RI, he and his buddies attempted to rob a bus. (A bus?) Anyway, he was identified because he was wearing his state championship jacket with his name embroidered on it.

    Going to Piston games at the old Cobo Arena in downtown Detroit was an event back in the early '70's. Everyone used to show up in their finest, especially the women. . .

    When the Pistons moved to the Silverdome in 1978, somehow the vibe never came all the back.

    Kareem Abdul Jabbar wrote about the fans at Cobo Arena. They would jump out of their seat and hi-five people in different rows after a great play.

Comments are closed.

Subscribe to All Steve Sailer Comments via RSS