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From the New York Times:

Evidence of a Toxic Environment for Women in Economics
Economic View
By JUSTIN WOLFERS AUG. 18, 2017

A pathbreaking new study of online conversations among economists describes and quantifies a workplace culture that appears to amount to outright hostility toward women in parts of the economics profession.

Alice H. Wu, who will start her doctoral studies at Harvard next year, completed the research in an award-winning senior thesis at the University of California, Berkeley. Her paper has been making the rounds among leading economists this summer, and prompting urgent conversations.

David Card, an eminent economist at Berkeley who was Ms. Wu’s thesis adviser, told me that she had produced “a very disturbing report.” …

Ms. Wu mined more than a million posts from an anonymous online message board frequented by many economists. The site, commonly known as econjobrumors.com (its full name is Economics Job Market Rumors), began as a place for economists to exchange gossip about who is hiring and being hired in the profession. Over time, it evolved into a virtual water cooler frequented by economics faculty members, graduate students and others.

Most academic disciplines have a Job Rumors bulletin board where the field’s dirty laundry is aired. These are frequently denounced by the great and the good of the discipline (i.e., those with no need to look for a job) as “cesspools.”

But they can make fun reading. For example, here is a debate over me on EconJobRumors.com.

Anyway, it turns out that, when afforded anonymity, some young economists agree with James Damore!

It now constitutes a useful, if imperfect, archive for studying what economists talk about when they talk among themselves. …

In her paper, Ms. Wu says the anonymity of these online posts “eliminates any social pressure participants may feel to edit their speech” and so perhaps allowed her “to capture what people believe but would not openly say.”

And that is what must be stamped out.

How can America’s CEOs like Suchar Pindai feel perfectly confident in speaking truth to power when there are high IQ 20 somethings who are known to dissent from The Narrative?

… In an email, David Romer, a leading macroeconomist at Berkeley, summarized the paper as depicting “a cesspool of misogyny.” …

Some economists say they find the discourse on econjobrumors.com to be a breath of fresh air. George Borjas, an economics professor at Harvard, wrote on his blog last summer that he found the forum “refreshing.”

Professor Borjas said: “There’s still hope for mankind when many of the posts written by a bunch of over-educated young social scientists illustrate a throwing off of the shackles of political correctness and reflect mundane concerns that more normal human beings share: prestige, sex, money, landing a job, sex, professional misconduct, gossip, sex. …”

Justin Wolfers is a professor of economics and public policy at the University of Michigan. Follow him on Twitter at @justinwolfers.

In summary …

Masked vigilantes beating and intimidating pro-free speech demonstrators: OK.

Anonymous younger Ph.D.’s discussing reality in ways they wouldn’t dare to if stripped of their anonymity: NOT OK.

The unmasking of the heretics must accelerate!

 
    []
  1. anon says: • Disclaimer

    a workplace culture that appears to amount to outright hostility toward women in parts of the economics profession.

    Well, I don’t know why that would be. Perhaps it has something to do with one of (I assume) very few female economics students being able to win awards for a paper that seems to have nothing to do with economics, and everything to do with ratting out other economics students to Teacher. While male economics students have to actually write about the dismal science itself.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Desiderius

    ratting out other economics students to Teacher
     
    The problem is the existence of this capital "T" teacher. That's something kids have, not grown-ups.
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  2. George says:

    This paper examines whether people in academia portray and judge women and men differently in everyday“ conversations” that take place online.

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/v6q7gfcbv9feef5/Wu_EJMR_paper.pdf?dl=0

    Table 1 contains an amusing list of words used to describe women and men including inside joke ‘Fiekers’. What is ‘Fiekers’? I don’t know and am too lazy and tired to go much further than the first google hit. If anyone can figure out what a fieker is, please post it.

    FIECKERS GUY REVEALED: An EJMR investigation

    https://www.econjobrumors.com/topic/fieckers-guy-revealed-an-ejmr-investigation

    Read More
  3. JohnnyD says:

    Alice H. Wu reminds me a lot of Ellen Pao (who’s now the “Chief Diversity and Inclusion Officer at the Kapor Center for Social Impact).

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anon
    Is that owned/run/dedicated to that annoying Deshi chick from The Office?
    , @Nigerian Nationalist
    Nah, per Google, Wu is much hotter.
  4. Shouldn’t

    Knowledge of economics + Knowledge of HBD = Lotsadough ?

    So why worry about anonymity?

    Read More
  5. @anon

    a workplace culture that appears to amount to outright hostility toward women in parts of the economics profession.
     
    Well, I don't know why that would be. Perhaps it has something to do with one of (I assume) very few female economics students being able to win awards for a paper that seems to have nothing to do with economics, and everything to do with ratting out other economics students to Teacher. While male economics students have to actually write about the dismal science itself.

    ratting out other economics students to Teacher

    The problem is the existence of this capital “T” teacher. That’s something kids have, not grown-ups.

    Read More
  6. Anon says: • Disclaimer

    A joke on EJMR that I liked was where someone gave the credit for the mariel boatlift study to “Card and Cocaine” (a lot of people there seemed to find the iSteve analysis plausible). Also, the jab that they like to take at Steve Sailer is: “hey what does steve sailer know about economics, the highest degree he has is an MBA in marketing.”

    Read More
  7. Interesting quote from the NYT article (below).

    The 30 words most uniquely associated with discussions of women make for uncomfortable reading.

    In order, that list is: hotter, lesbian, bb (internet speak for “baby”), sexism, tits, anal, marrying, feminazi, slut, hot, vagina, boobs, pregnant, pregnancy, cute, marry, levy, gorgeous, horny, crush, beautiful, secretary, dump, shopping, date, nonprofit, intentions, sexy, dated and prostitute

    .

    I can sort of understand why the NYT isn’t happy. Apparently behind the veener, even Economics grad students are roughly as vulgar as frat boys, hockey players, east coast guidos, and prole construction workers.

    The reality of life is that women are judged heavily on their attractiveness and sexual behavior. It may not be fair, but that’s how the world works. Of course, life experience has taught me that women also critique men on the basis of their sexual attractiveness. Women are just a bit more coy and indirect about discussing men.

    Some people think that status comes from being wealthy, powerful, or intelligent. However, at least among young people, I think the highest status people are those who are considered the most sexually attractive. In college, people will judge you more on the basis of your “hotness” than the quality of your dissertation on the supply curve.

    Granted this changes as people get older. Looks fade with time, while money accumulates interest. Lots of nerds end up becoming doctors, lawyers, accountants, and senior corporate hacks.

    My guess is that lots of female feminists (and even some male feminists) are secretly pissed off that they lost out in the bar scene when they were younger. While they feel redeemed somewhat by their professional success later in life, they’re still a bit emotionally scarred.

    The worst off people are those that are fat/ugly in high school, then (after graduation) end up in low-wage labor. They’re, unfortunately, losers for life. These are the sort of people you see at Wal Mart, the grocery stores, and fast food outlets.

    Conclusion: Being attractive carries lots of benefits in life when you’re young, while being professionally succesful carries lots of benefits once you pass 30. If you’re unattractive and unsuccessful in the job market, you’re screwed.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jenner Ickham Errican

    [Interesting quote from the NYT article (below).]

    The 30 words most uniquely associated with discussions of women make for uncomfortable reading.

    In order, that list is: hotter, lesbian, bb (internet speak for “baby”), sexism, tits, anal, marrying, feminazi, slut, hot, vagina, boobs, pregnant, pregnancy, cute, marry, levy, gorgeous, horny, crush, beautiful, secretary, dump, shopping, date, nonprofit, intentions, sexy, dated and prostitute.
     
    Maybe I’m no fancy schmancy economist, but when trading slows on a lazy summer Friday afternoon, come on now—who isn’t psyched for a raucous weekend of “sexism tits anal” and “hot vagina boobs” ??? YOLO, m’fers !

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnHm4ro_l8s

    Vulgar sexist economist water cooler chat IRL:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zL8G5pBZ5CI
    , @Olorin
    Or to put it more simply, as economists these males view the world economically, including relations between the sexes.

    Likely that's the core problem. They're not supposed to do economics. They're supposed to do propaganda.

    Like Miss Wu who set out at Berkeley to win awards saying exactly what she knows will be rewarded in the Current Year with a degree program at Harvard.

    That's also economic behavior. But since she's a gal, she can escape it being seen as that.
    , @njguy73

    The 30 words most uniquely associated with discussions of women make for uncomfortable reading.

    In order, that list is: hotter, lesbian, bb (internet speak for “baby”), sexism, tits, anal, marrying, feminazi, slut, hot, vagina, boobs, pregnant, pregnancy, cute, marry, levy, gorgeous, horny, crush, beautiful, secretary, dump, shopping, date, nonprofit, intentions, sexy, dated and prostitute
     
    I don't have a joke here.
    , @Abe

    I can sort of understand why the NYT isn’t happy. Apparently behind the veener, even Economics grad students are roughly as vulgar as frat boys, hockey players, east coast guidos, and prole construction workers.
     
    Wait wait wait- WAIT! 9 months ago every damn news clown in the clown news industry was swearing that Trump's "locker room talk" was the sort of thing only immature 12 year olds did. Her Highness's court jesters even found professional athletes ready to swear under pain of inquisition that tis was true in the locker rooms to end all locker rooms- i.e. those of the NBA and NFL.

    Oh, but we're talking about "water cooler talk" here, not "locker room talk". And instead of grabbing anyone by the p*ssy they're talking about the 'vagina'. Totally different, then, just like everybody know there's never been an act of terrorism committed in the US by refugees, only asylum seekers (or is that the reverse? hard to keep straight).

    , @Lagertha
    I agree with everything that you stated except: Walmart Women. I live in a semi-rural area, and hung out with all kinds of moms at sport events during my sons' school years, I have a different take on Walmart, grocery store, HS beauty-turned-fatty women. Many blue color (assume you mean non-corporate types, right?) women I know, are quite fine with getting fatter over time, like Mrs. Fezziwig. In fact, often their husbands are just as beer-paunchy, spongy as they are. Both may have been very hot in HS, but now, don't feel the need to compete - it's sort of refreshing. Many of these women I know that don't fit the corporate-climber box at all, are very happy, have wonderful well-adjusted kids, and have good marriages, own their homes through hard work. The women in my community, the non-collegey types, are very content and have no status-anxiety. I did a lot of volunteering for school and sports for decades, and, the easiest women (consensus capable) to work on a board with, were all the non-corporate women.

    But, you are correct about the envy and status anxiety of corporate sphere women/university educated women, in that there is a deep-seeded resentment of beautiful people; stay-at-home moms, and, condescension towards blue-color women, fat women. Corporatist women are resentful over women who have children and good marriages, too. I see our country just filling up with sad-sack single, professional women who never realized that you have to compromise a lot to have a personal life that brings children or accommodates a life companion to grow old with together.

    These WalMart women sort of get that early in life. And, they never mean any harm when they chide me about "you're too thin," because I do eat cupcakes & donuts in front of them. I am hyper-active so I have fast metabolism.

    Corporate women are fed all this garbage now that it is ok not to have kids; it is ok to be fat; it is ok to be alone - the NYT article about marrying yourself was a hoot! It's so ironic that in the 80's there was much more acceptance of "choices," and now, if you don't have 30 years of corporate climbing status to show, you're told (by many articles and social scientists today) you are still better off (have more status) because you were a trailblazer. However, while munching on donuts, drinking box coffee, at cool, crisp autumn football games, the happiest women now, are my peers that are grandmothers, and are planning their retirements with their, grey and often, bald husbands - everyone is moving south!

    I am truly fascinated by this move currently, by the media, to assuage the gnawing anxiety that corporate women made a mistake by sacrificing personal life for work status in the public sphere. - Corporations lucked-out by having a lot of lower salaried female worker-bees, who suddenly woke up at 45 and realized they are alone. Ultimately, women, fat, thin, beautiful in the past, or now, should be encouraged to not conform, feel pressure, because you are right, attractive people in all stages of life, do have it easier...had more men chasing them. Women are the ones that choose, and, they should choose wisely and early, if they have the choices.

    Lastly, I always knew men were visual creatures, so, women's body parts/rating women was always obvious to me...it's normal. My sons have been taught by me to look beyond that stuff, but that it is ok also, natural, to look at the bodies of women. Animals have been doing this forever. Did I tell you how amazing the male woodpecker looked this morning?

  8. What about all the economists who don’t post on “econjobrumors.com?” Does her thesis take themt into account?

    Anyone who follows online reviews knows that it’s usually the dissatisfied and the angry who take to posting on Yelp and various message boards. There’s a name for this, but I forget what it is.

    But it comes down to this: When we’re satisfied with an experience, we go home with the idea that that’s the way things should be, so we usually don’t take any action. Few people think “I’d like to speak to the manager!” to voice a compliment or a neutral opinion.

    But when we’re unhappy, we get “I want to speak to the manager!” syndrome big time, and this is what leads to people complaining on messages boards and places like Yelp or Amazon.

    Any “thesis” about online complaining that doesn’t take into account who *isn’t* going online to complain isn’t worth the paper on which its printed.

    Read More
    • Agree: Autochthon
    • Replies: @Desiderius

    Few people think “I’d like to speak to the manager!” to voice a compliment
     
    It's a good practice to get into. I try to balance it 2-to-1 with complaints.
    , @Kyle McKenna

    What about all the economists who don’t post on “econjobrumors.com?” Does her thesis take them into account?
     
    Course not. Because it might not do this:

    prompting urgent conversations. (NYT)
     
    And I like her photo. Thanks for sharing.
    , @MBlanc46
    I'd wager that the male economists who don't post on this forum have pretty much the same ideas about women as the male evonomists who do post.
    , @AndrewR
    I can't speak for anyone else but, while I only log on Yelp after having a bad experience, for every bad review I leave, I leave three or four good reviews for other places that I have visited but not reviewed. My Yelp reviews are mostly positive.
  9. Anonym says:

    I’m not exactly sure why you included a picture of David Spade at the end of this piece?

    Read More
  10. @Days of Broken Arrows
    What about all the economists who don't post on "econjobrumors.com?" Does her thesis take themt into account?

    Anyone who follows online reviews knows that it's usually the dissatisfied and the angry who take to posting on Yelp and various message boards. There's a name for this, but I forget what it is.

    But it comes down to this: When we're satisfied with an experience, we go home with the idea that that's the way things should be, so we usually don't take any action. Few people think "I'd like to speak to the manager!" to voice a compliment or a neutral opinion.

    But when we're unhappy, we get "I want to speak to the manager!" syndrome big time, and this is what leads to people complaining on messages boards and places like Yelp or Amazon.

    Any "thesis" about online complaining that doesn't take into account who *isn't* going online to complain isn't worth the paper on which its printed.

    Few people think “I’d like to speak to the manager!” to voice a compliment

    It’s a good practice to get into. I try to balance it 2-to-1 with complaints.

    Read More
  11. Economics is a sort of nexus where philosophy, hard science, and practical politics all intersect. For anyone (such as myself) who believes that a mature understanding of the world must include these very elements, there are few things more enjoyable than reading through the history of economic thought. There is food for the mind there; enough to fascinate you for a lifetime.

    But in light of that lofty introduction, I would venture to say that the number of people truly qualified to function as professional economists is utterly dwarfed by the multitudes entering the field, and that civilization’s demand for the services of professional economists, while vital, could be satisfied by the talents of just the qualified few. What is it that all these econ grads go on to do, anyway? I’m guessing they mostly intend to become the future beneficiaries of the parasitical FIRE sector, which is in desperate need of culling.

    Unlike Wolfers, I am not exactly encouraged or thrilled to find that the disciples of a noble profession “share the mundane concerns of normal human beings.” It is in just such observations that I begin to detect the aroma of a disconcerting bohemianism that will eventually degrade the whole establishment. Something similar has long since killed medicine in this country. It was the rise of celebrity doctors like Andrew Weil and Deepak Chopra, who cheapened the medical profession with appeals to magical thinking, that prepared the collective consciousness for the interpretation of medicine as an affair of good intentions and thereby legitimized the entry of numerous lackluster candidates into the field.

    The fields of medicine, law, education, and business are now completely over-saturated with sub-standard human material. The end result of this we see in journalism, which is even further down the path of decline: A coterie of inept flunkies, more or less openly despised for their incompetence, but occupying a privileged place in an ossified caste system that seems incapable of either improvement or elimination.

    Something has to give here. What we need are economists who aren’t normal human beings. We need sublime minds, granite characters, men with angel-hearts managing the world’s affairs, lest we perish in this morass of all-too-human mediocrity.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wilbur Hassenfus
    Economists managing the world's affairs is the last damn thing we need. And the persistent fantasy of salvation by perfect angel-hearted[1] philosopher-kings is part of the reason why.

    [1] -hearted, not -minded? You sure?
    , @MarkinLA
    What we need are economists who aren’t normal human beings.

    Find one. When one that is practically worshipped comes up with the dumbest idea in the world that helped drive the economy off a cliff, what does it say about the whole profession, other than it is a worthless pseudo-science.

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/stevedenning/2013/06/26/the-origin-of-the-worlds-dumbest-idea-milton-friedman/#417996ab870e
    , @Luke Lea
    "I would venture to say that the number of people truly qualified to function as professional economists is utterly dwarfed by the multitudes entering the field, and that civilization’s demand for the services of professional economists, while vital, could be satisfied by the talents of just the qualified few."

    I couldn't agree more. Economics is not truly a science, it is more of a logic and an art. But to be good at it you need a lot of historical knowledge and real world experience.

    And, of course, economics is always about policy, more precisely, about the search for good policy in an ever-changing world. What is good policy? That which tends to increase the welfare of this and future generations is my definition.

    So professional economists, the few really good ones, are important as advisors to statesmen and legislators. The rest of us are just kibitzers.

  12. @Days of Broken Arrows
    What about all the economists who don't post on "econjobrumors.com?" Does her thesis take themt into account?

    Anyone who follows online reviews knows that it's usually the dissatisfied and the angry who take to posting on Yelp and various message boards. There's a name for this, but I forget what it is.

    But it comes down to this: When we're satisfied with an experience, we go home with the idea that that's the way things should be, so we usually don't take any action. Few people think "I'd like to speak to the manager!" to voice a compliment or a neutral opinion.

    But when we're unhappy, we get "I want to speak to the manager!" syndrome big time, and this is what leads to people complaining on messages boards and places like Yelp or Amazon.

    Any "thesis" about online complaining that doesn't take into account who *isn't* going online to complain isn't worth the paper on which its printed.

    What about all the economists who don’t post on “econjobrumors.com?” Does her thesis take them into account?

    Course not. Because it might not do this:

    prompting urgent conversations. (NYT)

    And I like her photo. Thanks for sharing.

    Read More
  13. @JohnnyWalker123
    Interesting quote from the NYT article (below).

    The 30 words most uniquely associated with discussions of women make for uncomfortable reading.

    In order, that list is: hotter, lesbian, bb (internet speak for “baby”), sexism, tits, anal, marrying, feminazi, slut, hot, vagina, boobs, pregnant, pregnancy, cute, marry, levy, gorgeous, horny, crush, beautiful, secretary, dump, shopping, date, nonprofit, intentions, sexy, dated and prostitute
     
    .

    I can sort of understand why the NYT isn't happy. Apparently behind the veener, even Economics grad students are roughly as vulgar as frat boys, hockey players, east coast guidos, and prole construction workers.

    The reality of life is that women are judged heavily on their attractiveness and sexual behavior. It may not be fair, but that's how the world works. Of course, life experience has taught me that women also critique men on the basis of their sexual attractiveness. Women are just a bit more coy and indirect about discussing men.

    Some people think that status comes from being wealthy, powerful, or intelligent. However, at least among young people, I think the highest status people are those who are considered the most sexually attractive. In college, people will judge you more on the basis of your "hotness" than the quality of your dissertation on the supply curve.

    Granted this changes as people get older. Looks fade with time, while money accumulates interest. Lots of nerds end up becoming doctors, lawyers, accountants, and senior corporate hacks.

    My guess is that lots of female feminists (and even some male feminists) are secretly pissed off that they lost out in the bar scene when they were younger. While they feel redeemed somewhat by their professional success later in life, they're still a bit emotionally scarred.

    The worst off people are those that are fat/ugly in high school, then (after graduation) end up in low-wage labor. They're, unfortunately, losers for life. These are the sort of people you see at Wal Mart, the grocery stores, and fast food outlets.

    Conclusion: Being attractive carries lots of benefits in life when you're young, while being professionally succesful carries lots of benefits once you pass 30. If you're unattractive and unsuccessful in the job market, you're screwed.

    [Interesting quote from the NYT article (below).]

    The 30 words most uniquely associated with discussions of women make for uncomfortable reading.

    In order, that list is: hotter, lesbian, bb (internet speak for “baby”), sexism, tits, anal, marrying, feminazi, slut, hot, vagina, boobs, pregnant, pregnancy, cute, marry, levy, gorgeous, horny, crush, beautiful, secretary, dump, shopping, date, nonprofit, intentions, sexy, dated and prostitute.

    Maybe I’m no fancy schmancy economist, but when trading slows on a lazy summer Friday afternoon, come on now—who isn’t psyched for a raucous weekend of “sexism tits anal” and “hot vagina boobs” ??? YOLO, m’fers !

    Vulgar sexist economist water cooler chat IRL:

    Read More
  14. Johnny789 says:

    George Borjas must feel more secure in his job than even Bill Belichek does.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    If you are a tenured Harvard professor, you ought to be able to feel secure.
  15. I’ve heard of the “FMK” game but “cute, marry, levy”???

    Levy? Levy? As in attach your bank account, or as in Senior Partner?

    Meanwhile, whoever was the one to sneak “shopping” in there actually knows how to pull.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jenner Ickham Errican

    Meanwhile, whoever was the one to sneak “shopping” in there actually knows how to pull.
     
    Or is in friend zone hell. :)

    I have it on good authority (#14) that for male German economists, “beautiful secretary dump” is the hottest water cooler topic.
  16. @Johnny789
    George Borjas must feel more secure in his job than even Bill Belichek does.

    If you are a tenured Harvard professor, you ought to be able to feel secure.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Johnny789
    I guess I was more thinking about having a mixed race crazy chick yelling at you at the top of her lungs somewhere on campus. Gotta keep up with the Yalies, don'tcha know.
    , @Dan Hayes
    Steve,

    Previously I had thought that the only excuse for tenure removal was for sexual misconduct, but it appears that some people have recently had their tenure removed and been sacked for perceived anti-PC transgressions.

    I am unable to remember precise details but these transgressions seemed to have occurred at nominally Catholic colleges (actually Catholic in name only!).

  17. Olorin says:

    Alice H. Wu, who will start her doctoral studies at Harvard next year, completed the research in an award-winning senior thesis at the University of California, Berkeley. Her paper has been making the rounds among leading economists this summer, and prompting urgent conversations.

    David Card, an eminent economist at Berkeley who was Ms. Wu’s thesis adviser, told me that she had produced “a very disturbing report.” …

    Disturbing indeed. But not for the reasons he thinks.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Forbes
    What exactly is an "award-winning senior thesis" at Berkeley? As in, what's the award? Who's the competition? Sounds like the professors' might've picked out the teacher's pet among the students for a prize. Pretty low bar of accomplishment considering--as noted--the thesis is not actually about economics...unless one is searching for a survey of on-line cattiness and trash-talking...
  18. Olorin says:
    @JohnnyWalker123
    Interesting quote from the NYT article (below).

    The 30 words most uniquely associated with discussions of women make for uncomfortable reading.

    In order, that list is: hotter, lesbian, bb (internet speak for “baby”), sexism, tits, anal, marrying, feminazi, slut, hot, vagina, boobs, pregnant, pregnancy, cute, marry, levy, gorgeous, horny, crush, beautiful, secretary, dump, shopping, date, nonprofit, intentions, sexy, dated and prostitute
     
    .

    I can sort of understand why the NYT isn't happy. Apparently behind the veener, even Economics grad students are roughly as vulgar as frat boys, hockey players, east coast guidos, and prole construction workers.

    The reality of life is that women are judged heavily on their attractiveness and sexual behavior. It may not be fair, but that's how the world works. Of course, life experience has taught me that women also critique men on the basis of their sexual attractiveness. Women are just a bit more coy and indirect about discussing men.

    Some people think that status comes from being wealthy, powerful, or intelligent. However, at least among young people, I think the highest status people are those who are considered the most sexually attractive. In college, people will judge you more on the basis of your "hotness" than the quality of your dissertation on the supply curve.

    Granted this changes as people get older. Looks fade with time, while money accumulates interest. Lots of nerds end up becoming doctors, lawyers, accountants, and senior corporate hacks.

    My guess is that lots of female feminists (and even some male feminists) are secretly pissed off that they lost out in the bar scene when they were younger. While they feel redeemed somewhat by their professional success later in life, they're still a bit emotionally scarred.

    The worst off people are those that are fat/ugly in high school, then (after graduation) end up in low-wage labor. They're, unfortunately, losers for life. These are the sort of people you see at Wal Mart, the grocery stores, and fast food outlets.

    Conclusion: Being attractive carries lots of benefits in life when you're young, while being professionally succesful carries lots of benefits once you pass 30. If you're unattractive and unsuccessful in the job market, you're screwed.

    Or to put it more simply, as economists these males view the world economically, including relations between the sexes.

    Likely that’s the core problem. They’re not supposed to do economics. They’re supposed to do propaganda.

    Like Miss Wu who set out at Berkeley to win awards saying exactly what she knows will be rewarded in the Current Year with a degree program at Harvard.

    That’s also economic behavior. But since she’s a gal, she can escape it being seen as that.

    Read More
  19. Johnny789 says:
    @Steve Sailer
    If you are a tenured Harvard professor, you ought to be able to feel secure.

    I guess I was more thinking about having a mixed race crazy chick yelling at you at the top of her lungs somewhere on campus. Gotta keep up with the Yalies, don’tcha know.

    Read More
  20. Dan Hayes says:
    @Steve Sailer
    If you are a tenured Harvard professor, you ought to be able to feel secure.

    Steve,

    Previously I had thought that the only excuse for tenure removal was for sexual misconduct, but it appears that some people have recently had their tenure removed and been sacked for perceived anti-PC transgressions.

    I am unable to remember precise details but these transgressions seemed to have occurred at nominally Catholic colleges (actually Catholic in name only!).

    Read More
  21. My wife is an economist and academic and I tend to go on econjobrumors off and on since she introduced me to it. Lots of econ faculty lurk there. It is difficult to class it as a cesspool of misogyny. The most frequent topics of conversation are salaries and whether X faculty member or X department has an overblown and unwarranted reputation. It’s a good place to get info on what a university econ department is really like to work in. Helpful to know as the incidence of weird, lazy, tyrannical, clueless, unhelpful, supremely arrogant and plainly useless personalities is far higher in academia than a civilian would think.

    Read More
    • Replies: @JackOH
    " . . . [T]he incidence of weird, lazy, tyrannical, clueless, unhelpful, supremely arrogant and plainly useless personalities is far higher in academia than a civilian would think."

    You have spoken the truth, Ali. (I'm an insider-observer at my local less selective state university. The prestige of the earned doctorate, the sage-on-the-stage authority conferred by the teacher-student relationship, the specialized jargon in many fields, and much more had me fooled for years that the quality of the people in academe was much better than that of ordinary working stiffs. Wrong.)
  22. njguy73 says:
    @JohnnyWalker123
    Interesting quote from the NYT article (below).

    The 30 words most uniquely associated with discussions of women make for uncomfortable reading.

    In order, that list is: hotter, lesbian, bb (internet speak for “baby”), sexism, tits, anal, marrying, feminazi, slut, hot, vagina, boobs, pregnant, pregnancy, cute, marry, levy, gorgeous, horny, crush, beautiful, secretary, dump, shopping, date, nonprofit, intentions, sexy, dated and prostitute
     
    .

    I can sort of understand why the NYT isn't happy. Apparently behind the veener, even Economics grad students are roughly as vulgar as frat boys, hockey players, east coast guidos, and prole construction workers.

    The reality of life is that women are judged heavily on their attractiveness and sexual behavior. It may not be fair, but that's how the world works. Of course, life experience has taught me that women also critique men on the basis of their sexual attractiveness. Women are just a bit more coy and indirect about discussing men.

    Some people think that status comes from being wealthy, powerful, or intelligent. However, at least among young people, I think the highest status people are those who are considered the most sexually attractive. In college, people will judge you more on the basis of your "hotness" than the quality of your dissertation on the supply curve.

    Granted this changes as people get older. Looks fade with time, while money accumulates interest. Lots of nerds end up becoming doctors, lawyers, accountants, and senior corporate hacks.

    My guess is that lots of female feminists (and even some male feminists) are secretly pissed off that they lost out in the bar scene when they were younger. While they feel redeemed somewhat by their professional success later in life, they're still a bit emotionally scarred.

    The worst off people are those that are fat/ugly in high school, then (after graduation) end up in low-wage labor. They're, unfortunately, losers for life. These are the sort of people you see at Wal Mart, the grocery stores, and fast food outlets.

    Conclusion: Being attractive carries lots of benefits in life when you're young, while being professionally succesful carries lots of benefits once you pass 30. If you're unattractive and unsuccessful in the job market, you're screwed.

    The 30 words most uniquely associated with discussions of women make for uncomfortable reading.

    In order, that list is: hotter, lesbian, bb (internet speak for “baby”), sexism, tits, anal, marrying, feminazi, slut, hot, vagina, boobs, pregnant, pregnancy, cute, marry, levy, gorgeous, horny, crush, beautiful, secretary, dump, shopping, date, nonprofit, intentions, sexy, dated and prostitute

    I don’t have a joke here.

    Read More
  23. “The 30 words most uniquely associated with discussions of women make for uncomfortable reading. In order, that list is: hotter, lesbian, bb (internet speak for “baby”), sexism, tits, anal, marrying, feminazi, slut, hot, vagina, boobs, pregnant, pregnancy, cute, marry, levy, gorgeous, horny, crush, beautiful, secretary, dump, shopping, date, nonprofit, intentions, sexy, dated and prostitute.”

    Two points:

    1). Does anyone else feel like life itself has become Catholic school — where people are constantly being monitored for petty infractions by a group of uptight, sexually-maladjusted women (and sometimes men)? I do. I barely lasted a year in Catholic school and my swift exit had nothing to do with academics.

    2). Anyone who has heard the raunchy way women discuss men today shouldn’t be surprised that men use these words too. This is another thing that bothers me about today’s self-appointed nuns like Ms. Wu. They know very well what our culture has become. They see women buy books like “50 Shades of Grey,” fight on “Maury Povich,” and cuss like sailors. Yet they feign shock when men use naughty words, as if it’s suddenly become 1956.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Unladen Swallow
    This country's intellectual culture was started by Puritans, the more things change, the more they stay the same.
    , @MBlanc46
    If only it were 1956 again.
  24. @Kyle McKenna
    I've heard of the "FMK" game but "cute, marry, levy"???

    Levy? Levy? As in attach your bank account, or as in Senior Partner?

    Meanwhile, whoever was the one to sneak "shopping" in there actually knows how to pull.

    Meanwhile, whoever was the one to sneak “shopping” in there actually knows how to pull.

    Or is in friend zone hell. :)

    I have it on good authority (#14) that for male German economists, “beautiful secretary dump” is the hottest water cooler topic.

    Read More
  25. JackOH says:
    @Ali Choudhury
    My wife is an economist and academic and I tend to go on econjobrumors off and on since she introduced me to it. Lots of econ faculty lurk there. It is difficult to class it as a cesspool of misogyny. The most frequent topics of conversation are salaries and whether X faculty member or X department has an overblown and unwarranted reputation. It's a good place to get info on what a university econ department is really like to work in. Helpful to know as the incidence of weird, lazy, tyrannical, clueless, unhelpful, supremely arrogant and plainly useless personalities is far higher in academia than a civilian would think.

    ” . . . [T]he incidence of weird, lazy, tyrannical, clueless, unhelpful, supremely arrogant and plainly useless personalities is far higher in academia than a civilian would think.”

    You have spoken the truth, Ali. (I’m an insider-observer at my local less selective state university. The prestige of the earned doctorate, the sage-on-the-stage authority conferred by the teacher-student relationship, the specialized jargon in many fields, and much more had me fooled for years that the quality of the people in academe was much better than that of ordinary working stiffs. Wrong.)

    Read More
  26. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @njguy73

    The 30 words most uniquely associated with discussions of women make for uncomfortable reading.

    In order, that list is: hotter, lesbian, bb (internet speak for “baby”), sexism, tits, anal, marrying, feminazi, slut, hot, vagina, boobs, pregnant, pregnancy, cute, marry, levy, gorgeous, horny, crush, beautiful, secretary, dump, shopping, date, nonprofit, intentions, sexy, dated and prostitute
     
    I don't have a joke here.

    They missed “sugar tits”.

    Read More
  27. @Intelligent Dasein
    Economics is a sort of nexus where philosophy, hard science, and practical politics all intersect. For anyone (such as myself) who believes that a mature understanding of the world must include these very elements, there are few things more enjoyable than reading through the history of economic thought. There is food for the mind there; enough to fascinate you for a lifetime.

    But in light of that lofty introduction, I would venture to say that the number of people truly qualified to function as professional economists is utterly dwarfed by the multitudes entering the field, and that civilization's demand for the services of professional economists, while vital, could be satisfied by the talents of just the qualified few. What is it that all these econ grads go on to do, anyway? I'm guessing they mostly intend to become the future beneficiaries of the parasitical FIRE sector, which is in desperate need of culling.

    Unlike Wolfers, I am not exactly encouraged or thrilled to find that the disciples of a noble profession "share the mundane concerns of normal human beings." It is in just such observations that I begin to detect the aroma of a disconcerting bohemianism that will eventually degrade the whole establishment. Something similar has long since killed medicine in this country. It was the rise of celebrity doctors like Andrew Weil and Deepak Chopra, who cheapened the medical profession with appeals to magical thinking, that prepared the collective consciousness for the interpretation of medicine as an affair of good intentions and thereby legitimized the entry of numerous lackluster candidates into the field.

    The fields of medicine, law, education, and business are now completely over-saturated with sub-standard human material. The end result of this we see in journalism, which is even further down the path of decline: A coterie of inept flunkies, more or less openly despised for their incompetence, but occupying a privileged place in an ossified caste system that seems incapable of either improvement or elimination.

    Something has to give here. What we need are economists who aren't normal human beings. We need sublime minds, granite characters, men with angel-hearts managing the world's affairs, lest we perish in this morass of all-too-human mediocrity.

    Economists managing the world’s affairs is the last damn thing we need. And the persistent fantasy of salvation by perfect angel-hearted[1] philosopher-kings is part of the reason why.

    [1] -hearted, not -minded? You sure?

    Read More
  28. @Days of Broken Arrows
    "The 30 words most uniquely associated with discussions of women make for uncomfortable reading. In order, that list is: hotter, lesbian, bb (internet speak for “baby”), sexism, tits, anal, marrying, feminazi, slut, hot, vagina, boobs, pregnant, pregnancy, cute, marry, levy, gorgeous, horny, crush, beautiful, secretary, dump, shopping, date, nonprofit, intentions, sexy, dated and prostitute."

    Two points:

    1). Does anyone else feel like life itself has become Catholic school -- where people are constantly being monitored for petty infractions by a group of uptight, sexually-maladjusted women (and sometimes men)? I do. I barely lasted a year in Catholic school and my swift exit had nothing to do with academics.

    2). Anyone who has heard the raunchy way women discuss men today shouldn't be surprised that men use these words too. This is another thing that bothers me about today's self-appointed nuns like Ms. Wu. They know very well what our culture has become. They see women buy books like "50 Shades of Grey," fight on "Maury Povich," and cuss like sailors. Yet they feign shock when men use naughty words, as if it's suddenly become 1956.

    This country’s intellectual culture was started by Puritans, the more things change, the more they stay the same.

    Read More
  29. MBlanc46 says:
    @Days of Broken Arrows
    What about all the economists who don't post on "econjobrumors.com?" Does her thesis take themt into account?

    Anyone who follows online reviews knows that it's usually the dissatisfied and the angry who take to posting on Yelp and various message boards. There's a name for this, but I forget what it is.

    But it comes down to this: When we're satisfied with an experience, we go home with the idea that that's the way things should be, so we usually don't take any action. Few people think "I'd like to speak to the manager!" to voice a compliment or a neutral opinion.

    But when we're unhappy, we get "I want to speak to the manager!" syndrome big time, and this is what leads to people complaining on messages boards and places like Yelp or Amazon.

    Any "thesis" about online complaining that doesn't take into account who *isn't* going online to complain isn't worth the paper on which its printed.

    I’d wager that the male economists who don’t post on this forum have pretty much the same ideas about women as the male evonomists who do post.

    Read More
  30. MBlanc46 says:
    @Days of Broken Arrows
    "The 30 words most uniquely associated with discussions of women make for uncomfortable reading. In order, that list is: hotter, lesbian, bb (internet speak for “baby”), sexism, tits, anal, marrying, feminazi, slut, hot, vagina, boobs, pregnant, pregnancy, cute, marry, levy, gorgeous, horny, crush, beautiful, secretary, dump, shopping, date, nonprofit, intentions, sexy, dated and prostitute."

    Two points:

    1). Does anyone else feel like life itself has become Catholic school -- where people are constantly being monitored for petty infractions by a group of uptight, sexually-maladjusted women (and sometimes men)? I do. I barely lasted a year in Catholic school and my swift exit had nothing to do with academics.

    2). Anyone who has heard the raunchy way women discuss men today shouldn't be surprised that men use these words too. This is another thing that bothers me about today's self-appointed nuns like Ms. Wu. They know very well what our culture has become. They see women buy books like "50 Shades of Grey," fight on "Maury Povich," and cuss like sailors. Yet they feign shock when men use naughty words, as if it's suddenly become 1956.

    If only it were 1956 again.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Stebbing Heuer
    At some point in Mad Men, Roger says: 'God I miss the fifties'.

    It's yours to steal.
  31. If anyone can figure out what a fieker is, please post it.

    Kind of boring, but it has to do with the job market for new PhDs. People have really unrealistic expectations about the type of job they’ll come out of it with, so statements like “you’re going to get `feiked’ on the job market” became common and were attributed to “feikers” as some imaginary spirit. Someone might start a thread with a title that would be enticing to the site’s visitors, and the first post would instead be “feikers” telling everyone they will fail the job market. For example:

    https://www.econjobrumors.com/topic/economics-professor-fired

    I spend less time on the site than when I was a grad student, mostly because it’s heavily moderated nowadays and therefore boring. Posts and threads with too much of a certain kind of iSteve-tyle “noticing” are taken down promptly. It’s heartening though to catch a glimpse now and then. The less compelling, cruder comments seem to not be a concern to moderators.

    I think it’s important to note that the majority of posters are not just at American schools (and even those in American programs are majority non-American). Just as when we hear that “a Minnesota man” is off fighting for ISIS we’re supposed to have young Sven Olsen in mind, we now are supposed to picture Haven Monahan here making the sexist economist comments and doing the campus raping.

    Is there a precise term for this?

    It doesn’t have the same effect that the Pakistani programmers have on repelling white American women away from tech, but the profession being overwhelmingly foreign brings a weird culture of competitive aspie-ness that is probably more alienating to American women (like me) than to men. Alice Wu’s reeeeeing is misdirected. And it seems completely beyond these people to recognize that these online “cesspools” are a product of their incessant handwringing.

    Read More
    • Replies: @res

    The less compelling, cruder comments seem to not be a concern to moderators.
     
    This is a great observation that I think deserves more attention. Some sites seem to be big on moderating away compelling reasoned counter arguments to their articles while at the same time letting through obviously offensive racist, sexist, anti-Semitic, etc. comments. Has anyone taken a good look at the who (not whom ; ) and why of this?
  32. Sound a lot of fun these non-PC rumour boards, they need to be encouraged. With killjoy SJWs and other feminazis taking offence at everything, these boards provide the chance to let off a bit of steam, always a good thing. Professional offence takers need not bother.

    Read More
  33. I’m glad to hear from Borjas again. Despite the fact that he came from Cuba, he’s one of the very few mainstream economists who will publicly admit that mass immigration lowers wages.

    Read More
  34. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @JohnnyD
    Alice H. Wu reminds me a lot of Ellen Pao (who's now the "Chief Diversity and Inclusion Officer at the Kapor Center for Social Impact).

    Is that owned/run/dedicated to that annoying Deshi chick from The Office?

    Read More
  35. MarkinLA says:
    @Intelligent Dasein
    Economics is a sort of nexus where philosophy, hard science, and practical politics all intersect. For anyone (such as myself) who believes that a mature understanding of the world must include these very elements, there are few things more enjoyable than reading through the history of economic thought. There is food for the mind there; enough to fascinate you for a lifetime.

    But in light of that lofty introduction, I would venture to say that the number of people truly qualified to function as professional economists is utterly dwarfed by the multitudes entering the field, and that civilization's demand for the services of professional economists, while vital, could be satisfied by the talents of just the qualified few. What is it that all these econ grads go on to do, anyway? I'm guessing they mostly intend to become the future beneficiaries of the parasitical FIRE sector, which is in desperate need of culling.

    Unlike Wolfers, I am not exactly encouraged or thrilled to find that the disciples of a noble profession "share the mundane concerns of normal human beings." It is in just such observations that I begin to detect the aroma of a disconcerting bohemianism that will eventually degrade the whole establishment. Something similar has long since killed medicine in this country. It was the rise of celebrity doctors like Andrew Weil and Deepak Chopra, who cheapened the medical profession with appeals to magical thinking, that prepared the collective consciousness for the interpretation of medicine as an affair of good intentions and thereby legitimized the entry of numerous lackluster candidates into the field.

    The fields of medicine, law, education, and business are now completely over-saturated with sub-standard human material. The end result of this we see in journalism, which is even further down the path of decline: A coterie of inept flunkies, more or less openly despised for their incompetence, but occupying a privileged place in an ossified caste system that seems incapable of either improvement or elimination.

    Something has to give here. What we need are economists who aren't normal human beings. We need sublime minds, granite characters, men with angel-hearts managing the world's affairs, lest we perish in this morass of all-too-human mediocrity.

    What we need are economists who aren’t normal human beings.

    Find one. When one that is practically worshipped comes up with the dumbest idea in the world that helped drive the economy off a cliff, what does it say about the whole profession, other than it is a worthless pseudo-science.

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/stevedenning/2013/06/26/the-origin-of-the-worlds-dumbest-idea-milton-friedman/#417996ab870e

    Read More
  36. Anon says: • Disclaimer

    “It was the rise of celebrity doctors like Andrew Weil and Deepak Chopra, who cheapened the medical profession with appeals to magical thinking, that prepared the collective consciousness for the interpretation of medicine as an affair of good intentions and thereby legitimized the entry of numerous lackluster candidates into the field.”

    Or, maybe exposed the “professionals” as over-educated frauds prescribing overpriced nostrums in the pay of Big Pharma.

    Don’t get me wrong; if I want a broken leg set, or a brain tumor removed, give me an MD. But most of these guys are just pill-handing out pharma shills; positive thinking would do as well (ask Mark Twain about Christian Science) and have fewer side effects.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Forbes
    The rise of celebrity doctors as celebrated by the left-wing megaphone of PBS/NPR/CPB.

    But don't even think about cutting funding for the valuable programs on PBS/NPR/CPB.
  37. Abe says: • Website
    @JohnnyWalker123
    Interesting quote from the NYT article (below).

    The 30 words most uniquely associated with discussions of women make for uncomfortable reading.

    In order, that list is: hotter, lesbian, bb (internet speak for “baby”), sexism, tits, anal, marrying, feminazi, slut, hot, vagina, boobs, pregnant, pregnancy, cute, marry, levy, gorgeous, horny, crush, beautiful, secretary, dump, shopping, date, nonprofit, intentions, sexy, dated and prostitute
     
    .

    I can sort of understand why the NYT isn't happy. Apparently behind the veener, even Economics grad students are roughly as vulgar as frat boys, hockey players, east coast guidos, and prole construction workers.

    The reality of life is that women are judged heavily on their attractiveness and sexual behavior. It may not be fair, but that's how the world works. Of course, life experience has taught me that women also critique men on the basis of their sexual attractiveness. Women are just a bit more coy and indirect about discussing men.

    Some people think that status comes from being wealthy, powerful, or intelligent. However, at least among young people, I think the highest status people are those who are considered the most sexually attractive. In college, people will judge you more on the basis of your "hotness" than the quality of your dissertation on the supply curve.

    Granted this changes as people get older. Looks fade with time, while money accumulates interest. Lots of nerds end up becoming doctors, lawyers, accountants, and senior corporate hacks.

    My guess is that lots of female feminists (and even some male feminists) are secretly pissed off that they lost out in the bar scene when they were younger. While they feel redeemed somewhat by their professional success later in life, they're still a bit emotionally scarred.

    The worst off people are those that are fat/ugly in high school, then (after graduation) end up in low-wage labor. They're, unfortunately, losers for life. These are the sort of people you see at Wal Mart, the grocery stores, and fast food outlets.

    Conclusion: Being attractive carries lots of benefits in life when you're young, while being professionally succesful carries lots of benefits once you pass 30. If you're unattractive and unsuccessful in the job market, you're screwed.

    I can sort of understand why the NYT isn’t happy. Apparently behind the veener, even Economics grad students are roughly as vulgar as frat boys, hockey players, east coast guidos, and prole construction workers.

    Wait wait wait- WAIT! 9 months ago every damn news clown in the clown news industry was swearing that Trump’s “locker room talk” was the sort of thing only immature 12 year olds did. Her Highness’s court jesters even found professional athletes ready to swear under pain of inquisition that tis was true in the locker rooms to end all locker rooms- i.e. those of the NBA and NFL.

    Oh, but we’re talking about “water cooler talk” here, not “locker room talk”. And instead of grabbing anyone by the p*ssy they’re talking about the ‘vagina’. Totally different, then, just like everybody know there’s never been an act of terrorism committed in the US by refugees, only asylum seekers (or is that the reverse? hard to keep straight).

    Read More
    • Replies: @Clyde

    I’m glad to hear from Borjas again. Despite the fact that he came from Cuba, he’s one of the very few mainstream economists who will publicly admit that mass immigration lowers wages
     
    . He is a conquistador-American but the best possible kind. Harvard-Pravda cannot fire him. He is basically with us but must be over 70 old by now so in retirement mode
  38. Lagertha says:
    @JohnnyWalker123
    Interesting quote from the NYT article (below).

    The 30 words most uniquely associated with discussions of women make for uncomfortable reading.

    In order, that list is: hotter, lesbian, bb (internet speak for “baby”), sexism, tits, anal, marrying, feminazi, slut, hot, vagina, boobs, pregnant, pregnancy, cute, marry, levy, gorgeous, horny, crush, beautiful, secretary, dump, shopping, date, nonprofit, intentions, sexy, dated and prostitute
     
    .

    I can sort of understand why the NYT isn't happy. Apparently behind the veener, even Economics grad students are roughly as vulgar as frat boys, hockey players, east coast guidos, and prole construction workers.

    The reality of life is that women are judged heavily on their attractiveness and sexual behavior. It may not be fair, but that's how the world works. Of course, life experience has taught me that women also critique men on the basis of their sexual attractiveness. Women are just a bit more coy and indirect about discussing men.

    Some people think that status comes from being wealthy, powerful, or intelligent. However, at least among young people, I think the highest status people are those who are considered the most sexually attractive. In college, people will judge you more on the basis of your "hotness" than the quality of your dissertation on the supply curve.

    Granted this changes as people get older. Looks fade with time, while money accumulates interest. Lots of nerds end up becoming doctors, lawyers, accountants, and senior corporate hacks.

    My guess is that lots of female feminists (and even some male feminists) are secretly pissed off that they lost out in the bar scene when they were younger. While they feel redeemed somewhat by their professional success later in life, they're still a bit emotionally scarred.

    The worst off people are those that are fat/ugly in high school, then (after graduation) end up in low-wage labor. They're, unfortunately, losers for life. These are the sort of people you see at Wal Mart, the grocery stores, and fast food outlets.

    Conclusion: Being attractive carries lots of benefits in life when you're young, while being professionally succesful carries lots of benefits once you pass 30. If you're unattractive and unsuccessful in the job market, you're screwed.

    I agree with everything that you stated except: Walmart Women. I live in a semi-rural area, and hung out with all kinds of moms at sport events during my sons’ school years, I have a different take on Walmart, grocery store, HS beauty-turned-fatty women. Many blue color (assume you mean non-corporate types, right?) women I know, are quite fine with getting fatter over time, like Mrs. Fezziwig. In fact, often their husbands are just as beer-paunchy, spongy as they are. Both may have been very hot in HS, but now, don’t feel the need to compete – it’s sort of refreshing. Many of these women I know that don’t fit the corporate-climber box at all, are very happy, have wonderful well-adjusted kids, and have good marriages, own their homes through hard work. The women in my community, the non-collegey types, are very content and have no status-anxiety. I did a lot of volunteering for school and sports for decades, and, the easiest women (consensus capable) to work on a board with, were all the non-corporate women.

    But, you are correct about the envy and status anxiety of corporate sphere women/university educated women, in that there is a deep-seeded resentment of beautiful people; stay-at-home moms, and, condescension towards blue-color women, fat women. Corporatist women are resentful over women who have children and good marriages, too. I see our country just filling up with sad-sack single, professional women who never realized that you have to compromise a lot to have a personal life that brings children or accommodates a life companion to grow old with together.

    These WalMart women sort of get that early in life. And, they never mean any harm when they chide me about “you’re too thin,” because I do eat cupcakes & donuts in front of them. I am hyper-active so I have fast metabolism.

    Corporate women are fed all this garbage now that it is ok not to have kids; it is ok to be fat; it is ok to be alone – the NYT article about marrying yourself was a hoot! It’s so ironic that in the 80′s there was much more acceptance of “choices,” and now, if you don’t have 30 years of corporate climbing status to show, you’re told (by many articles and social scientists today) you are still better off (have more status) because you were a trailblazer. However, while munching on donuts, drinking box coffee, at cool, crisp autumn football games, the happiest women now, are my peers that are grandmothers, and are planning their retirements with their, grey and often, bald husbands – everyone is moving south!

    I am truly fascinated by this move currently, by the media, to assuage the gnawing anxiety that corporate women made a mistake by sacrificing personal life for work status in the public sphere. – Corporations lucked-out by having a lot of lower salaried female worker-bees, who suddenly woke up at 45 and realized they are alone. Ultimately, women, fat, thin, beautiful in the past, or now, should be encouraged to not conform, feel pressure, because you are right, attractive people in all stages of life, do have it easier…had more men chasing them. Women are the ones that choose, and, they should choose wisely and early, if they have the choices.

    Lastly, I always knew men were visual creatures, so, women’s body parts/rating women was always obvious to me…it’s normal. My sons have been taught by me to look beyond that stuff, but that it is ok also, natural, to look at the bodies of women. Animals have been doing this forever. Did I tell you how amazing the male woodpecker looked this morning?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Ivy
    In California, and doubtless other areas, there is an alternative to the corporate rut for the aggressive, reasonably astute woman. They turn to a career selling houses. The asset bubble draws many in, and they get to boss around or coddle nervous buyers and sellers to get their fix as Masteress of the Universe. Drive around in a big German sedan, visit the gym and salon when not otherwise occupied, and build up bragging rights for $ and # volume closed.
    , @Yngvar

    Did I tell you how amazing the male woodpecker looked this morning?
     
    What?
    , @Jim Don Bob
    I have similar experiences when I go visit friends in WV. These people, men and women, are happier than the urban feminist harpies.

    But damn, some of them are not just fat, they are obese. Add some tats, and some skimpy camo clothing, and public gathering are depressing.
  39. Clyde says:
    @Abe

    I can sort of understand why the NYT isn’t happy. Apparently behind the veener, even Economics grad students are roughly as vulgar as frat boys, hockey players, east coast guidos, and prole construction workers.
     
    Wait wait wait- WAIT! 9 months ago every damn news clown in the clown news industry was swearing that Trump's "locker room talk" was the sort of thing only immature 12 year olds did. Her Highness's court jesters even found professional athletes ready to swear under pain of inquisition that tis was true in the locker rooms to end all locker rooms- i.e. those of the NBA and NFL.

    Oh, but we're talking about "water cooler talk" here, not "locker room talk". And instead of grabbing anyone by the p*ssy they're talking about the 'vagina'. Totally different, then, just like everybody know there's never been an act of terrorism committed in the US by refugees, only asylum seekers (or is that the reverse? hard to keep straight).

    I’m glad to hear from Borjas again. Despite the fact that he came from Cuba, he’s one of the very few mainstream economists who will publicly admit that mass immigration lowers wages

    . He is a conquistador-American but the best possible kind. Harvard-Pravda cannot fire him. He is basically with us but must be over 70 old by now so in retirement mode

    Read More
  40. Forbes says:
    @Olorin

    Alice H. Wu, who will start her doctoral studies at Harvard next year, completed the research in an award-winning senior thesis at the University of California, Berkeley. Her paper has been making the rounds among leading economists this summer, and prompting urgent conversations.

    David Card, an eminent economist at Berkeley who was Ms. Wu’s thesis adviser, told me that she had produced “a very disturbing report.” …
     

    Disturbing indeed. But not for the reasons he thinks.

    What exactly is an “award-winning senior thesis” at Berkeley? As in, what’s the award? Who’s the competition? Sounds like the professors’ might’ve picked out the teacher’s pet among the students for a prize. Pretty low bar of accomplishment considering–as noted–the thesis is not actually about economics…unless one is searching for a survey of on-line cattiness and trash-talking…

    Read More
  41. Forbes says:
    @Anon
    "It was the rise of celebrity doctors like Andrew Weil and Deepak Chopra, who cheapened the medical profession with appeals to magical thinking, that prepared the collective consciousness for the interpretation of medicine as an affair of good intentions and thereby legitimized the entry of numerous lackluster candidates into the field."

    Or, maybe exposed the "professionals" as over-educated frauds prescribing overpriced nostrums in the pay of Big Pharma.

    Don't get me wrong; if I want a broken leg set, or a brain tumor removed, give me an MD. But most of these guys are just pill-handing out pharma shills; positive thinking would do as well (ask Mark Twain about Christian Science) and have fewer side effects.

    The rise of celebrity doctors as celebrated by the left-wing megaphone of PBS/NPR/CPB.

    But don’t even think about cutting funding for the valuable programs on PBS/NPR/CPB.

    Read More
  42. res says:
    @Some Economist

    If anyone can figure out what a fieker is, please post it.
     
    Kind of boring, but it has to do with the job market for new PhDs. People have really unrealistic expectations about the type of job they'll come out of it with, so statements like "you're going to get `feiked' on the job market" became common and were attributed to "feikers" as some imaginary spirit. Someone might start a thread with a title that would be enticing to the site's visitors, and the first post would instead be "feikers" telling everyone they will fail the job market. For example:
    https://www.econjobrumors.com/topic/economics-professor-fired

    I spend less time on the site than when I was a grad student, mostly because it's heavily moderated nowadays and therefore boring. Posts and threads with too much of a certain kind of iSteve-tyle "noticing" are taken down promptly. It's heartening though to catch a glimpse now and then. The less compelling, cruder comments seem to not be a concern to moderators.

    I think it's important to note that the majority of posters are not just at American schools (and even those in American programs are majority non-American). Just as when we hear that "a Minnesota man" is off fighting for ISIS we're supposed to have young Sven Olsen in mind, we now are supposed to picture Haven Monahan here making the sexist economist comments and doing the campus raping.

    Is there a precise term for this?

    It doesn't have the same effect that the Pakistani programmers have on repelling white American women away from tech, but the profession being overwhelmingly foreign brings a weird culture of competitive aspie-ness that is probably more alienating to American women (like me) than to men. Alice Wu's reeeeeing is misdirected. And it seems completely beyond these people to recognize that these online "cesspools" are a product of their incessant handwringing.

    The less compelling, cruder comments seem to not be a concern to moderators.

    This is a great observation that I think deserves more attention. Some sites seem to be big on moderating away compelling reasoned counter arguments to their articles while at the same time letting through obviously offensive racist, sexist, anti-Semitic, etc. comments. Has anyone taken a good look at the who (not whom ; ) and why of this?

    Read More
    • Replies: @anonymous
    Paint your enemy as you want to. Kind of an old trick isn't it?
  43. AndrewR says:
    @Days of Broken Arrows
    What about all the economists who don't post on "econjobrumors.com?" Does her thesis take themt into account?

    Anyone who follows online reviews knows that it's usually the dissatisfied and the angry who take to posting on Yelp and various message boards. There's a name for this, but I forget what it is.

    But it comes down to this: When we're satisfied with an experience, we go home with the idea that that's the way things should be, so we usually don't take any action. Few people think "I'd like to speak to the manager!" to voice a compliment or a neutral opinion.

    But when we're unhappy, we get "I want to speak to the manager!" syndrome big time, and this is what leads to people complaining on messages boards and places like Yelp or Amazon.

    Any "thesis" about online complaining that doesn't take into account who *isn't* going online to complain isn't worth the paper on which its printed.

    I can’t speak for anyone else but, while I only log on Yelp after having a bad experience, for every bad review I leave, I leave three or four good reviews for other places that I have visited but not reviewed. My Yelp reviews are mostly positive.

    Read More
  44. Luke Lea says:
    @Intelligent Dasein
    Economics is a sort of nexus where philosophy, hard science, and practical politics all intersect. For anyone (such as myself) who believes that a mature understanding of the world must include these very elements, there are few things more enjoyable than reading through the history of economic thought. There is food for the mind there; enough to fascinate you for a lifetime.

    But in light of that lofty introduction, I would venture to say that the number of people truly qualified to function as professional economists is utterly dwarfed by the multitudes entering the field, and that civilization's demand for the services of professional economists, while vital, could be satisfied by the talents of just the qualified few. What is it that all these econ grads go on to do, anyway? I'm guessing they mostly intend to become the future beneficiaries of the parasitical FIRE sector, which is in desperate need of culling.

    Unlike Wolfers, I am not exactly encouraged or thrilled to find that the disciples of a noble profession "share the mundane concerns of normal human beings." It is in just such observations that I begin to detect the aroma of a disconcerting bohemianism that will eventually degrade the whole establishment. Something similar has long since killed medicine in this country. It was the rise of celebrity doctors like Andrew Weil and Deepak Chopra, who cheapened the medical profession with appeals to magical thinking, that prepared the collective consciousness for the interpretation of medicine as an affair of good intentions and thereby legitimized the entry of numerous lackluster candidates into the field.

    The fields of medicine, law, education, and business are now completely over-saturated with sub-standard human material. The end result of this we see in journalism, which is even further down the path of decline: A coterie of inept flunkies, more or less openly despised for their incompetence, but occupying a privileged place in an ossified caste system that seems incapable of either improvement or elimination.

    Something has to give here. What we need are economists who aren't normal human beings. We need sublime minds, granite characters, men with angel-hearts managing the world's affairs, lest we perish in this morass of all-too-human mediocrity.

    “I would venture to say that the number of people truly qualified to function as professional economists is utterly dwarfed by the multitudes entering the field, and that civilization’s demand for the services of professional economists, while vital, could be satisfied by the talents of just the qualified few.”

    I couldn’t agree more. Economics is not truly a science, it is more of a logic and an art. But to be good at it you need a lot of historical knowledge and real world experience.

    And, of course, economics is always about policy, more precisely, about the search for good policy in an ever-changing world. What is good policy? That which tends to increase the welfare of this and future generations is my definition.

    So professional economists, the few really good ones, are important as advisors to statesmen and legislators. The rest of us are just kibitzers.

    Read More
  45. anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @res

    The less compelling, cruder comments seem to not be a concern to moderators.
     
    This is a great observation that I think deserves more attention. Some sites seem to be big on moderating away compelling reasoned counter arguments to their articles while at the same time letting through obviously offensive racist, sexist, anti-Semitic, etc. comments. Has anyone taken a good look at the who (not whom ; ) and why of this?

    Paint your enemy as you want to. Kind of an old trick isn’t it?

    Read More
  46. @JohnnyD
    Alice H. Wu reminds me a lot of Ellen Pao (who's now the "Chief Diversity and Inclusion Officer at the Kapor Center for Social Impact).

    Nah, per Google, Wu is much hotter.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Nigerian Nationalist
    Nope, my first search turned out a rather pretty Konger with the same name. Further research shows the real one is rather, meh.
  47. @Nigerian Nationalist
    Nah, per Google, Wu is much hotter.

    Nope, my first search turned out a rather pretty Konger with the same name. Further research shows the real one is rather, meh.

    Read More
  48. Ivy says:
    @Lagertha
    I agree with everything that you stated except: Walmart Women. I live in a semi-rural area, and hung out with all kinds of moms at sport events during my sons' school years, I have a different take on Walmart, grocery store, HS beauty-turned-fatty women. Many blue color (assume you mean non-corporate types, right?) women I know, are quite fine with getting fatter over time, like Mrs. Fezziwig. In fact, often their husbands are just as beer-paunchy, spongy as they are. Both may have been very hot in HS, but now, don't feel the need to compete - it's sort of refreshing. Many of these women I know that don't fit the corporate-climber box at all, are very happy, have wonderful well-adjusted kids, and have good marriages, own their homes through hard work. The women in my community, the non-collegey types, are very content and have no status-anxiety. I did a lot of volunteering for school and sports for decades, and, the easiest women (consensus capable) to work on a board with, were all the non-corporate women.

    But, you are correct about the envy and status anxiety of corporate sphere women/university educated women, in that there is a deep-seeded resentment of beautiful people; stay-at-home moms, and, condescension towards blue-color women, fat women. Corporatist women are resentful over women who have children and good marriages, too. I see our country just filling up with sad-sack single, professional women who never realized that you have to compromise a lot to have a personal life that brings children or accommodates a life companion to grow old with together.

    These WalMart women sort of get that early in life. And, they never mean any harm when they chide me about "you're too thin," because I do eat cupcakes & donuts in front of them. I am hyper-active so I have fast metabolism.

    Corporate women are fed all this garbage now that it is ok not to have kids; it is ok to be fat; it is ok to be alone - the NYT article about marrying yourself was a hoot! It's so ironic that in the 80's there was much more acceptance of "choices," and now, if you don't have 30 years of corporate climbing status to show, you're told (by many articles and social scientists today) you are still better off (have more status) because you were a trailblazer. However, while munching on donuts, drinking box coffee, at cool, crisp autumn football games, the happiest women now, are my peers that are grandmothers, and are planning their retirements with their, grey and often, bald husbands - everyone is moving south!

    I am truly fascinated by this move currently, by the media, to assuage the gnawing anxiety that corporate women made a mistake by sacrificing personal life for work status in the public sphere. - Corporations lucked-out by having a lot of lower salaried female worker-bees, who suddenly woke up at 45 and realized they are alone. Ultimately, women, fat, thin, beautiful in the past, or now, should be encouraged to not conform, feel pressure, because you are right, attractive people in all stages of life, do have it easier...had more men chasing them. Women are the ones that choose, and, they should choose wisely and early, if they have the choices.

    Lastly, I always knew men were visual creatures, so, women's body parts/rating women was always obvious to me...it's normal. My sons have been taught by me to look beyond that stuff, but that it is ok also, natural, to look at the bodies of women. Animals have been doing this forever. Did I tell you how amazing the male woodpecker looked this morning?

    In California, and doubtless other areas, there is an alternative to the corporate rut for the aggressive, reasonably astute woman. They turn to a career selling houses. The asset bubble draws many in, and they get to boss around or coddle nervous buyers and sellers to get their fix as Masteress of the Universe. Drive around in a big German sedan, visit the gym and salon when not otherwise occupied, and build up bragging rights for $ and # volume closed.

    Read More
  49. Yngvar says:
    @Lagertha
    I agree with everything that you stated except: Walmart Women. I live in a semi-rural area, and hung out with all kinds of moms at sport events during my sons' school years, I have a different take on Walmart, grocery store, HS beauty-turned-fatty women. Many blue color (assume you mean non-corporate types, right?) women I know, are quite fine with getting fatter over time, like Mrs. Fezziwig. In fact, often their husbands are just as beer-paunchy, spongy as they are. Both may have been very hot in HS, but now, don't feel the need to compete - it's sort of refreshing. Many of these women I know that don't fit the corporate-climber box at all, are very happy, have wonderful well-adjusted kids, and have good marriages, own their homes through hard work. The women in my community, the non-collegey types, are very content and have no status-anxiety. I did a lot of volunteering for school and sports for decades, and, the easiest women (consensus capable) to work on a board with, were all the non-corporate women.

    But, you are correct about the envy and status anxiety of corporate sphere women/university educated women, in that there is a deep-seeded resentment of beautiful people; stay-at-home moms, and, condescension towards blue-color women, fat women. Corporatist women are resentful over women who have children and good marriages, too. I see our country just filling up with sad-sack single, professional women who never realized that you have to compromise a lot to have a personal life that brings children or accommodates a life companion to grow old with together.

    These WalMart women sort of get that early in life. And, they never mean any harm when they chide me about "you're too thin," because I do eat cupcakes & donuts in front of them. I am hyper-active so I have fast metabolism.

    Corporate women are fed all this garbage now that it is ok not to have kids; it is ok to be fat; it is ok to be alone - the NYT article about marrying yourself was a hoot! It's so ironic that in the 80's there was much more acceptance of "choices," and now, if you don't have 30 years of corporate climbing status to show, you're told (by many articles and social scientists today) you are still better off (have more status) because you were a trailblazer. However, while munching on donuts, drinking box coffee, at cool, crisp autumn football games, the happiest women now, are my peers that are grandmothers, and are planning their retirements with their, grey and often, bald husbands - everyone is moving south!

    I am truly fascinated by this move currently, by the media, to assuage the gnawing anxiety that corporate women made a mistake by sacrificing personal life for work status in the public sphere. - Corporations lucked-out by having a lot of lower salaried female worker-bees, who suddenly woke up at 45 and realized they are alone. Ultimately, women, fat, thin, beautiful in the past, or now, should be encouraged to not conform, feel pressure, because you are right, attractive people in all stages of life, do have it easier...had more men chasing them. Women are the ones that choose, and, they should choose wisely and early, if they have the choices.

    Lastly, I always knew men were visual creatures, so, women's body parts/rating women was always obvious to me...it's normal. My sons have been taught by me to look beyond that stuff, but that it is ok also, natural, to look at the bodies of women. Animals have been doing this forever. Did I tell you how amazing the male woodpecker looked this morning?

    Did I tell you how amazing the male woodpecker looked this morning?

    What?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Lagertha
    Haha...you are so...my point is: males, in the animal world, have evolved into having their bodies have things like colorful feathers that stick out (as an example) to attract females of their species. My point is that males and females send messages to each other through their appearance and gestures. Males in the animal kingdom are more colorful, more noticeable, more hairy than females. Sheesh, I can't believe I just wasted time to 'splain this to someone who slept through their biology lesson in 7th grade!
  50. @MBlanc46
    If only it were 1956 again.

    At some point in Mad Men, Roger says: ‘God I miss the fifties’.

    It’s yours to steal.

    Read More
  51. Lagertha says:
    @Yngvar

    Did I tell you how amazing the male woodpecker looked this morning?
     
    What?

    Haha…you are so…my point is: males, in the animal world, have evolved into having their bodies have things like colorful feathers that stick out (as an example) to attract females of their species. My point is that males and females send messages to each other through their appearance and gestures. Males in the animal kingdom are more colorful, more noticeable, more hairy than females. Sheesh, I can’t believe I just wasted time to ‘splain this to someone who slept through their biology lesson in 7th grade!

    Read More
  52. @Lagertha
    I agree with everything that you stated except: Walmart Women. I live in a semi-rural area, and hung out with all kinds of moms at sport events during my sons' school years, I have a different take on Walmart, grocery store, HS beauty-turned-fatty women. Many blue color (assume you mean non-corporate types, right?) women I know, are quite fine with getting fatter over time, like Mrs. Fezziwig. In fact, often their husbands are just as beer-paunchy, spongy as they are. Both may have been very hot in HS, but now, don't feel the need to compete - it's sort of refreshing. Many of these women I know that don't fit the corporate-climber box at all, are very happy, have wonderful well-adjusted kids, and have good marriages, own their homes through hard work. The women in my community, the non-collegey types, are very content and have no status-anxiety. I did a lot of volunteering for school and sports for decades, and, the easiest women (consensus capable) to work on a board with, were all the non-corporate women.

    But, you are correct about the envy and status anxiety of corporate sphere women/university educated women, in that there is a deep-seeded resentment of beautiful people; stay-at-home moms, and, condescension towards blue-color women, fat women. Corporatist women are resentful over women who have children and good marriages, too. I see our country just filling up with sad-sack single, professional women who never realized that you have to compromise a lot to have a personal life that brings children or accommodates a life companion to grow old with together.

    These WalMart women sort of get that early in life. And, they never mean any harm when they chide me about "you're too thin," because I do eat cupcakes & donuts in front of them. I am hyper-active so I have fast metabolism.

    Corporate women are fed all this garbage now that it is ok not to have kids; it is ok to be fat; it is ok to be alone - the NYT article about marrying yourself was a hoot! It's so ironic that in the 80's there was much more acceptance of "choices," and now, if you don't have 30 years of corporate climbing status to show, you're told (by many articles and social scientists today) you are still better off (have more status) because you were a trailblazer. However, while munching on donuts, drinking box coffee, at cool, crisp autumn football games, the happiest women now, are my peers that are grandmothers, and are planning their retirements with their, grey and often, bald husbands - everyone is moving south!

    I am truly fascinated by this move currently, by the media, to assuage the gnawing anxiety that corporate women made a mistake by sacrificing personal life for work status in the public sphere. - Corporations lucked-out by having a lot of lower salaried female worker-bees, who suddenly woke up at 45 and realized they are alone. Ultimately, women, fat, thin, beautiful in the past, or now, should be encouraged to not conform, feel pressure, because you are right, attractive people in all stages of life, do have it easier...had more men chasing them. Women are the ones that choose, and, they should choose wisely and early, if they have the choices.

    Lastly, I always knew men were visual creatures, so, women's body parts/rating women was always obvious to me...it's normal. My sons have been taught by me to look beyond that stuff, but that it is ok also, natural, to look at the bodies of women. Animals have been doing this forever. Did I tell you how amazing the male woodpecker looked this morning?

    I have similar experiences when I go visit friends in WV. These people, men and women, are happier than the urban feminist harpies.

    But damn, some of them are not just fat, they are obese. Add some tats, and some skimpy camo clothing, and public gathering are depressing.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Lagertha
    but, they don't care if they're not hot....so, in the genuine feminist mantra: they own it, tats & fat, and all. But, I do feel that professional women that put down WalMart women are by far, by legion, the tackier women...why? because true-blue, decent beautiful women don't waste time hating on poorer women/fat or unattractive women; and, financially successful women don't put down poor or unattractive women. If anything, successful women who are well-adjusted, want all women to succeed.
  53. Lagertha says:
    @Jim Don Bob
    I have similar experiences when I go visit friends in WV. These people, men and women, are happier than the urban feminist harpies.

    But damn, some of them are not just fat, they are obese. Add some tats, and some skimpy camo clothing, and public gathering are depressing.

    but, they don’t care if they’re not hot….so, in the genuine feminist mantra: they own it, tats & fat, and all. But, I do feel that professional women that put down WalMart women are by far, by legion, the tackier women…why? because true-blue, decent beautiful women don’t waste time hating on poorer women/fat or unattractive women; and, financially successful women don’t put down poor or unattractive women. If anything, successful women who are well-adjusted, want all women to succeed.

    Read More
  54. @Lagertha
    but, they don't care if they're not hot....so, in the genuine feminist mantra: they own it, tats & fat, and all. But, I do feel that professional women that put down WalMart women are by far, by legion, the tackier women...why? because true-blue, decent beautiful women don't waste time hating on poorer women/fat or unattractive women; and, financially successful women don't put down poor or unattractive women. If anything, successful women who are well-adjusted, want all women to succeed.

    Agree Lagertha. Well said.

    Read More

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