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Will White Basketball Players Ever Come Back?
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In the 1977 NBA finals, a mostly white team of Portland Trailblazers defeated a mostly black Philadelphia 76ers variety assortment of would-be superstars (a surprisingly ineffectual Dr J, a disastrous George McGinnis, Darryl Dawkins, World B. Free, etc). Back then, whites (Bill Walton, Bobby Jones, and Don Buse) were a majority of the All NBA Defense first team in both 1977 and 1978.

But blacks today are a lot better at playing defense & team basketball today than in 1970s.

The NBA had another downturn in the late 1990s-early 2000s when the generation of black kids who had grown up during the Crack Years got to the pros and couldn’t make free throws. The 2004 Olympic Dream Team losing three games in the Olympics was particularly symbolic of how bad black American basketball had gotten after the glory days of the Jordan Era.

But the NBA made some rule changes to make the game less violent, imposed a dress code against gangsta clothes (players constructively responded by dressing like nerd Steve Urkel if he were rich and cool), the game finally took the 3 point shot to heart. The quality of the game leapt upward and interesting new trends emerged.

This ought to be a lesson to people who say that baseball will never get itself out of its current rut of sabermetrics-derived Three True Outcomes play (homer, strikeout, or walk). It’s not actually all that hard to improve sports to make them a little more entertaining.

On the other hand, trends might go too far. For example, a decade ago, Bill Simmons predicted in his big Basketball book that George McGinnis’s record for most turnovers would never be broken. For example, the NFL/AFL single season record for interceptions thrown is George Blanda’s 42 in 1962, while the most in this century was only Brett Favre’s 29 in 2005.

But in 2017, both James Harden and Russell Westbrook broke McGinnis’s old ABA record. Westbrook is pretty much of a one-man show at OKC, but Harden plays for the super data-driven Houston Rockets that lost in this year’s semifinals to Golden State in the seventh game by missing, roughly, a million 3-pointers. Harden also often plays what Chick Hearn used to call “matador defense” where you stick your hand out as the dribbler rushes by and see what happens.

But Harden’s George McGinnis impression is evidently doing a lot right to satisfy Houston’s moneyball management. (If Harden starts shooting jumpshots one handed like McGinnis, that might be a little much, though.)

Similarly, the last two seasons, Westbrook has recorded triple doubles for the entire season (averaging double digits per game in points, rebounds, and assists).

Nobody had done that since Oscar Robertson in 1962, the legendary season in which Wilt Chamberlain scored 100 points in a single game and averaged 50 points per game. The year, nobody besides the Boston Celtics cared much about playing defense or even winning. The league’s strategy in 1962 was to have the players run up and down the court and shoot fast in order to run up outlandish statistics to take some space in the newspapers away from the Pro Bowler’s tour.

So, a lot can change in sports as one trend gets old and is replaced by another.

But will white players ever come back in fashion? Perhaps if blacks go into a broad society-wide decline in self-discipline like in the 1960s and around 1990.

 
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  1. prosa123 says: • Website

    Young athletic white boys who might do well in basketball are going into other sports.

    Read More
    • Replies: @ben tillman
    Duplicate.
    , @ben tillman
    It's been less than 7 years since the world's best basketball player was white. Has anyone else ever made 36 of 39 shots in a playoff game against Westbrook, Hardin, Ibaka, and Durant?
    , @snorlax
    White boys who are ≥6'6" tall are going into other sports??
    , @MikeatMikedotMike
    Agreed, basketball like football is experiencing a white flight. Besides injuries, I imagine avoiding hostile locker room environments has something to do with it.

    Why put up with that when there's good money in baseball, golf, etc...
    , @Brutusale
    Like lacrosse is taking a lot of kids who'd be playing baseball, physically-imposing white kids are looking to be the next Gronk or JJ Watt instead of playing hoops.
    , @Pat Boyle
    I was on my college basketball team. I did like a white man.

    Black men get on a team by jumping, shooting, dribbling and stuff like that. I couldn't really do any of those things so I had to find another way. I did. I created my college basketball program. I was 6'4" (tall for a civilian) and crazy about basketball. Alas I had none of the requisite athletic skills.

    I was at George Mason. But this wasn't the George Mason with all the Economics Nobel Prize winners or the recent top black basketball team. This was the spin off of the University of Virginia in its first days. This was not at the big new modern campus in Fairfax. It was at an old abandoned elementary school at Bailey's Cross Roads behind the fire house. There were only about two hundred and fifty students at the beginning of the year and one hundred and fifty in the Spring semester.

    There was no glee club, debate team, school newspaper or basketball team. So I had founded all of those activities. I was the captain of the debate team and the editor of the paper but only the back up center of on the basketball team. I was a really terrible player. The starting center was the President of the Student Assembly. I was the Vice President. Tall guys rule.

    The whole team was white probably because the whole school was white. We had no blacks and we had no wins. But I got to forever brag that I made my college basketball team. So there.

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  2. I can remember the glory days of the

    National Industrial Basketball League, esp. the

    New York Tuck Tapers:

    a bunch of little Jewish guys doing two-hand set-shots.

    but I fear

    those days will never return.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    In Tom Wolfe "I Am Charlotte Simmons," four Jewish sportswriters have a show on ESPN where they explain that genetics doesn't have anything to do with basketball success because Jews used to be big in pro basketball in the 1930s.
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  3. @Haxo Angmark
    I can remember the glory days of the

    National Industrial Basketball League, esp. the

    New York Tuck Tapers:

    a bunch of little Jewish guys doing two-hand set-shots.

    but I fear

    those days will never return.

    In Tom Wolfe “I Am Charlotte Simmons,” four Jewish sportswriters have a show on ESPN where they explain that genetics doesn’t have anything to do with basketball success because Jews used to be big in pro basketball in the 1930s.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    I'm pretty sure I've seen the same argument in The Atlantic or the NYT.
    , @bjondo
    Speaking of Jew, how did so many Jew, male and female, become hosts, analysts, sideline hacks, on tv and cable sports?
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  4. Perhaps if blacks go into a broad society-wide decline in self-discipline like in the 1960s and around 1990.

    You do realise that the best black players are no longer from the “hood”, they are middle-class children of former athletes. black immigrants or high performing Africans.

    Would not hold my breath for said “decline”.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Obama's Bigoted Fair Housing Vouchers
    The players are not in decline, but US blacks in general are forever in need to the tune of multiple tens of billions of dollars in school, housing and contract set asides and outright transfer payments taken from non-blacks by the Afro-centric white apologists who control the US system.
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  5. Dave Pinsen says: • Website
    @Steve Sailer
    In Tom Wolfe "I Am Charlotte Simmons," four Jewish sportswriters have a show on ESPN where they explain that genetics doesn't have anything to do with basketball success because Jews used to be big in pro basketball in the 1930s.

    I’m pretty sure I’ve seen the same argument in The Atlantic or the NYT.

    Read More
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  6. “The NBA had another downturn in the late 1990s-early 2000s when the generation of black kids who had grown up during the Crack Years got to the pros and couldn’t make free throws. ”

    These black kids also all grew up listening to NWA and Tupac, which certainly contributed to the thug life behavior, and their poor attitude regarding (NBA[white]) authority. Jewish sportswriters also absolutely loved Allen Iverson, which emboldened more players to act like goons.

    “The 2004 Olympic Dream Team losing three games in the Olympics was particularly symbolic of how bad black American basketball had gotten after the glory days of the Jordan Era.”

    That was the most embarrassing Olympic team of any kind ever assembled for the USA, and don’t forget that they lost to a bunch of mostly white European teams.

    “But the NBA made some rule changes to make the game less violent…”

    All it took was Latrell Spreewell nearly choking his coach to death in practice and Ron Artest (aka Meta-World Peace) starting a riot in the stands during a game. The fact that the NBA continued to let either of those two animals play in the NBA suggests they weren’t entirely serious about eliminating violence.

    “…imposed a dress code against gangsta clothes (players constructively responded by dressing like nerd Steve Urkel if he were rich and cool)…”

    Blacks like to look good; all it took was a little white cultural appropriation for them to manage it.

    “The quality of the game leapt upward and interesting new trends emerged.”

    Debatable – They started allowing zone defense, but the big interesting new trend is they pretty much stop penalizing traveling:

    Anyway – NBA basketball is unwatchable anymore and has been for 20 years. I’ll take baseball’s slow grinding pace instead. It’s better by every measure.

    Read More
    • Replies: @TheBoom
    Traveling by Jordan and the gang pretty much killed off the NBA for me. I was already eyeing the exit given that most games are either a blow out or decided in the last two minutes through time outs, penalties and commercial breaks.
    , @anonymous
    Remember the three-second rule? Also gone with the wind.
    , @pyrrhus
    Indeed, if the NBA ever starts enforcing the rules of basketball, i.e. traveling, whites will regain some degree of prominence. Not likely to happen...
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  7. @prosa123
    Young athletic white boys who might do well in basketball are going into other sports.

    Duplicate.

    Read More
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  8. @prosa123
    Young athletic white boys who might do well in basketball are going into other sports.

    It’s been less than 7 years since the world’s best basketball player was white. Has anyone else ever made 36 of 39 shots in a playoff game against Westbrook, Hardin, Ibaka, and Durant?

    Read More
    • Replies: @MikeatMikedotMike
    Prosa123 is clearly talking about a group (American white boys) choosing other sports. You are talking about an individual (native German) who plays in the NBA. You cannot disprove a group trend by citing a single individual outlier.

    The only thing keeping the white % of players around 20-25% in the NBA is the increase of foreign born whites playing the game. American whites are choosing other sports to play if any at all.
    , @Truth
    36/of 39 in a game? No no one, including whomever you are thinking of.
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  9. snorlax says:
    @prosa123
    Young athletic white boys who might do well in basketball are going into other sports.

    White boys who are ≥6’6″ tall are going into other sports??

    Read More
    • Replies: @OFWHAP
    Professional wrestling has/had a lot of tall, white men. Think "Big Sexy" Kevin Nash (former college b-ball player), The Undertaker, Kane, Andre the Giant, The Big Show, etc.
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  10. @prosa123
    Young athletic white boys who might do well in basketball are going into other sports.

    Agreed, basketball like football is experiencing a white flight. Besides injuries, I imagine avoiding hostile locker room environments has something to do with it.

    Why put up with that when there’s good money in baseball, golf, etc…

    Read More
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  11. Anonymous[400] • Disclaimer says:

    Read More
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  12. Anon[656] • Disclaimer says:

    Require population proportionality. Disparate impact, affirmative action. It it’s O.K. for other jobs, why not for sports.

    Inclusion riders for music. Proportional representation on Hip Hop labels.

    Read More
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  13. I think we are seeing a resurgence of whites in the NBA, but its from Europeans, not Americans. Tall white kids in the US all seem to want to be pitchers or QBs.

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  14. Only whites who grow up in an all white environment (French Lick, Spokane, Belgrade) will be able to develop into pro-quality basketball players.

    The few exceptions will be coaches’ sons or some other outlier.

    Read More
    • Agree: gsjackson
    • Replies: @Brutusale
    French Lick's most famous son says playing pick-up games with black resort staffers in town help him refine his game. He also had something that white kids playing basketball don't have anymore: an indomitable will and the firm belief that he was the best.

    He's also the only guy I ever saw get floor burns from chasing loose balls in an All-Star game.

    Will is as important as skill.
    , @Truth
    Chris Mullin's from Brooklyn.
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  15. Sunbeam says:

    I doubt it.

    Basically the bulk of white people really aren’t interested in the sport. Not anymore.

    They don’t grow up playing hoops or shooting them in the driveway. There are a myriad of other things to do now.

    When they get to high school they don’t go to games, and they don’t do pickup games for fun after school.

    Sure you can point to some kid in Indiana or something, or some other kid with a father pushing him. But for the most part I think this is a fact.

    So I argue that the pool of players, white ones at least, has been on a steady decline since… the 60′s?

    I’d also wager a guess that the pool of white people that follows the NBA skews old. Maybe not as old as baseball, but still.

    And you can see this effect in football, even college as well. Young people today just aren’t as in to it as past generations.

    Read More
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  16. wiseguy says:

    Why do white Europeans do so much better than white Americans? Are the white Americans crowded out by black Americans, or is the US just relatively bad at developing talent in sports that other countries actually care about, e.g. basketball and soccer?i

    And BTW, how’s Lebron’s search for the real vandal going?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Marty
    The vandal most recently hit J.R. Smith's place.
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  17. @Nigerian Nationalist

    Perhaps if blacks go into a broad society-wide decline in self-discipline like in the 1960s and around 1990.

     

    You do realise that the best black players are no longer from the "hood", they are middle-class children of former athletes. black immigrants or high performing Africans.

    Would not hold my breath for said "decline".

    The players are not in decline, but US blacks in general are forever in need to the tune of multiple tens of billions of dollars in school, housing and contract set asides and outright transfer payments taken from non-blacks by the Afro-centric white apologists who control the US system.

    Read More
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  18. bjondo says:
    @Steve Sailer
    In Tom Wolfe "I Am Charlotte Simmons," four Jewish sportswriters have a show on ESPN where they explain that genetics doesn't have anything to do with basketball success because Jews used to be big in pro basketball in the 1930s.

    Speaking of Jew, how did so many Jew, male and female, become hosts, analysts, sideline hacks, on tv and cable sports?

    Read More
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  19. CK says:

    Due to circumstances above my pay grade, I watched Pro Darts from Germany one evening last week.
    The announcers claimed an attendance of over 20,000 at this giant beer hall all to watch 16 very European white guys throw darts at a board and try to subtract from 501 to exactly zero.
    This game requires mass consumption of beer and a lot of t shirts with the number 180 printed thereon. While none of the champion level competitors were in their 70′s several will n0t see the underside of 50 ever again. While some of the matches were comparable to slow drying varnish on a cold day, others called for another round and were knuckle biters to the last dart.
    It was unexpected.

    Read More
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  20. 1. don’t bother much with a lot of pro sports for a lot of reasons, but simply don’t care for the soap opera called the NBA where something like basketball is played towards the end of the season…
    .
    2. when you don’t have anything called ‘palming’ anymore (putting the defender at disadvantage, because you can never tell when he is picking up the ball and lost his dribble, or flinging a pass); when you don’t have anything called ‘traveling’ anymore (and particularly extended superstar travels); when you only have to barrel down the lane and dip a shoulder into a non-fouling defender to get a call; when establishing defensive position has no meaning; when you essentially allow the offense all the advantages and the defense none, then you have changed the face of basketball such that it is becoming a non-stop footrace to one goal, token D, then a foot race back the other way…
    .
    3. plays ? yeah, the NBA has one play: let four guys loaf around the corners while the superstar goes one-on-one… hell, why not go whole hog and just make the NBA a literal one-on-one league ? ? ?
    .
    meh, i’d much rather watch college chicka softball…

    Read More
    • Agree: Travis
    • Replies: @ScarletNumber

    meh, i’d much rather watch college chicka softball…
     
    No you wouldn't.
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  21. TheBoom says:
    @MikeatMikedotMike
    "The NBA had another downturn in the late 1990s-early 2000s when the generation of black kids who had grown up during the Crack Years got to the pros and couldn’t make free throws. "

    These black kids also all grew up listening to NWA and Tupac, which certainly contributed to the thug life behavior, and their poor attitude regarding (NBA[white]) authority. Jewish sportswriters also absolutely loved Allen Iverson, which emboldened more players to act like goons.

    "The 2004 Olympic Dream Team losing three games in the Olympics was particularly symbolic of how bad black American basketball had gotten after the glory days of the Jordan Era."

    That was the most embarrassing Olympic team of any kind ever assembled for the USA, and don't forget that they lost to a bunch of mostly white European teams.

    "But the NBA made some rule changes to make the game less violent..."

    All it took was Latrell Spreewell nearly choking his coach to death in practice and Ron Artest (aka Meta-World Peace) starting a riot in the stands during a game. The fact that the NBA continued to let either of those two animals play in the NBA suggests they weren't entirely serious about eliminating violence.

    "...imposed a dress code against gangsta clothes (players constructively responded by dressing like nerd Steve Urkel if he were rich and cool)..."

    Blacks like to look good; all it took was a little white cultural appropriation for them to manage it.

    "The quality of the game leapt upward and interesting new trends emerged."

    Debatable - They started allowing zone defense, but the big interesting new trend is they pretty much stop penalizing traveling:
    https://youtu.be/rjM4z-M7gcA

    Anyway - NBA basketball is unwatchable anymore and has been for 20 years. I'll take baseball's slow grinding pace instead. It's better by every measure.

    Traveling by Jordan and the gang pretty much killed off the NBA for me. I was already eyeing the exit given that most games are either a blow out or decided in the last two minutes through time outs, penalties and commercial breaks.

    Read More
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  22. So Brett Favre has the 21st Century record in 2005? I believe it.

    I saw the last Packer home game in 2005, Christmas Day vs. the Chicago Bears.

    End zone seats.

    I distinctly remember Brett Favre throwing a pick-six at that end zone. That was the worst season the Pack had with Favre.

    What really surprised me — that was the first time I was in Lambeau Field. I’ve been to baseball games in Veterans’ Stadium, Shea Stadium and the House that Ruth Built (all torn down now). I was used to some pretty obnoxious behavior from the fans.

    Obnoxious behavior is not tolerated at Lambeau Field. I saw people tossed for being rude to Chicago fans. Bear-baiting is NOT permitted.

    Read More
    • Replies: @MikeatMikedotMike
    It was Christmas Eve, and the pick-6 was thrown to Lance Briggs. I was watching from my in-laws' house. :)
    , @anonymous
    Favre hung on too long. After 2006 or 2007 he became essentially a "compiler" (of stats) Ichiro in baseball. These guys don't know when to hang it up sometimes.
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  23. anonymous[376] • Disclaimer says:
    @MikeatMikedotMike
    "The NBA had another downturn in the late 1990s-early 2000s when the generation of black kids who had grown up during the Crack Years got to the pros and couldn’t make free throws. "

    These black kids also all grew up listening to NWA and Tupac, which certainly contributed to the thug life behavior, and their poor attitude regarding (NBA[white]) authority. Jewish sportswriters also absolutely loved Allen Iverson, which emboldened more players to act like goons.

    "The 2004 Olympic Dream Team losing three games in the Olympics was particularly symbolic of how bad black American basketball had gotten after the glory days of the Jordan Era."

    That was the most embarrassing Olympic team of any kind ever assembled for the USA, and don't forget that they lost to a bunch of mostly white European teams.

    "But the NBA made some rule changes to make the game less violent..."

    All it took was Latrell Spreewell nearly choking his coach to death in practice and Ron Artest (aka Meta-World Peace) starting a riot in the stands during a game. The fact that the NBA continued to let either of those two animals play in the NBA suggests they weren't entirely serious about eliminating violence.

    "...imposed a dress code against gangsta clothes (players constructively responded by dressing like nerd Steve Urkel if he were rich and cool)..."

    Blacks like to look good; all it took was a little white cultural appropriation for them to manage it.

    "The quality of the game leapt upward and interesting new trends emerged."

    Debatable - They started allowing zone defense, but the big interesting new trend is they pretty much stop penalizing traveling:
    https://youtu.be/rjM4z-M7gcA

    Anyway - NBA basketball is unwatchable anymore and has been for 20 years. I'll take baseball's slow grinding pace instead. It's better by every measure.

    Remember the three-second rule? Also gone with the wind.

    Read More
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  24. Some years ago it seemed that the increasing reliance on the three-pointer might result in a league with lots of clones of my near-homeboy Kyle Korver, a 6′ 7″ not-so-athletic white guy who can shoot the lights out. In other words, three point accuracy > superior athleticism with bad shooting.

    Korver’s had a nice career, as have similar players such as J J Redick, but it turns out that three pointers need to be defended against as well as taken, and only-moderately-athletic guys with short arms are huge defensive liabilities. You can keep one on the floor, but likely not two. See the Warriors, also, for evidence of this. They can afford Stephen Curry’s lack of defensive prowess, but Klay Thompson is considered very good defensively. If he weren’t, he’d likely not be on the floor that much, even given his great shooting.

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  25. Bill P says:

    You have to understand the racial dynamics of integrated community centers to know why whites have run from basketball. If you’re a good white player you risk being subjected to aggravated assault every time you show up some black guy on the court. A friend of mine got knocked out cold back in the early 90s for nailing three pointers over black defenders. I, personally, wouldn’t even set foot in the community courts back then.

    We white kids had the outdoors, but the indoor spaces belonged to the blacks (including my high school cafeteria — we white kids ate outside even in winter). But this was in the Pacific NW. In sunnier places like CA the blacks probably had the outdoor spaces as well.

    Read More
    • Replies: @ThreeCranes
    "If you’re a good white player you risk being subjected to aggravated assault every time you show up some black guy on the court."

    True. When there are no refs (police) around, black guys revert to the law of the jungle. I saw the same stuff in Ann Arbor at the outdoor courts. Went once, watched a white guy get beat up by a black guy for no reason at all and I never went back. Wasn't that way before the 67 riots though. At least down in Indiana. When blacks realized that they had permission to riot and destroy property they metamorphized into subhuman monsters.
    , @Dave Pinsen
    This fellow seems to survive balling with black players.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=h7Fspb7DNe0
    , @Anonymous

    A friend of mine got knocked out cold back in the early 90s
     
    What happened?
    , @Screwtape
    This jives with my experience.

    In CA they controlled outdoor courts too. Community centers were slightly better but only because the mexican kids kept things in a kind of threeway balance.

    What they lacked in height they made up for in numbers and in older cousins who always seemed to be right around the corner. Early to mid 90’s were an interesting time.

    Interestingly, i also played in upscale neighborhoods. Mostly well off white guys who were ex HS or college players and their buddies from work.

    Word would get out that there was a competitive game running and then we’d get a black guy or two showing up. It would immediately change the dynamic from agreeable lunchtime ball to schoolyard rules and a certain vibe.

    Soon enough two carloads of thier friends would show. And it would get heated, both in good and bad ways.

    Always ended in a fight and we’d lose guys (the friends of friends, weaker players) until it was just the same shitshow it was down in my old hood. Thats when i quit entirely and focused on my surfing.

    I played a bit more when i moved to an evil white state (blue state actually) but the cycle continued even here. Love the game, but i havent watched the NBA in 15 years. Just reminds me of the yard and all that posturing and honor culture bullshit. To put in as tactfully as i care to.
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  26. @ben tillman
    It's been less than 7 years since the world's best basketball player was white. Has anyone else ever made 36 of 39 shots in a playoff game against Westbrook, Hardin, Ibaka, and Durant?

    Prosa123 is clearly talking about a group (American white boys) choosing other sports. You are talking about an individual (native German) who plays in the NBA. You cannot disprove a group trend by citing a single individual outlier.

    The only thing keeping the white % of players around 20-25% in the NBA is the increase of foreign born whites playing the game. American whites are choosing other sports to play if any at all.

    Read More
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  27. @Paleo Liberal
    So Brett Favre has the 21st Century record in 2005? I believe it.

    I saw the last Packer home game in 2005, Christmas Day vs. the Chicago Bears.

    End zone seats.

    I distinctly remember Brett Favre throwing a pick-six at that end zone. That was the worst season the Pack had with Favre.

    What really surprised me -- that was the first time I was in Lambeau Field. I've been to baseball games in Veterans' Stadium, Shea Stadium and the House that Ruth Built (all torn down now). I was used to some pretty obnoxious behavior from the fans.

    Obnoxious behavior is not tolerated at Lambeau Field. I saw people tossed for being rude to Chicago fans. Bear-baiting is NOT permitted.

    It was Christmas Eve, and the pick-6 was thrown to Lance Briggs. I was watching from my in-laws’ house. :)

    Read More
    • Replies: @Paleo Liberal
    No, it was Christmas Day. The friends who sold us their tickets had family stuff that day. This was a Christmas present to me and my son from my wife. At least the official record says Christmas day.

    https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/200512250gnb.htm

    I remember going through these medium sized cities in the Fox Valley, and NOTHING was open. I thought my son and I would grab some food at a MacDonalds or Wendys or whatever. Nope. All closed. We were able to buy some disgusting pastries at a gas station. I was used to living in bigger cities where stuff was open on Christmas.
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  28. anonymous[376] • Disclaimer says:

    J. Irving was vastly overrated. Flash and glam. No outside shot, not much of a passer. Can’t be spoken in the same breath with Larry Bird, let alone Lebron James

    Read More
    • Replies: @phil
    While no serious analyst rates Erving higher than Bird or Lebron, he did average more than 24 points a game with a field goal percentage above 50 percent--granted, he was more of an inside scorer. He was a reasonably good passer, averaging more than 4 assists per game. He also average 8.5 rebounds per game from the small forward position.

    A genuine hall of famer.
    , @ScarletNumber

    Can’t be spoken in the same breath with Larry Bird
     
    Electronic Arts disagrees.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_on_One:_Dr._J_vs._Larry_Bird
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  29. Truth says:
    @ben tillman
    It's been less than 7 years since the world's best basketball player was white. Has anyone else ever made 36 of 39 shots in a playoff game against Westbrook, Hardin, Ibaka, and Durant?

    36/of 39 in a game? No no one, including whomever you are thinking of.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Polymath
    12/15 from the field 24/24 from the line
    , @ben tillman
    Dirk did it, Vada,
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  30. Today’s NBA is a joke. Only a few teams have a chance to compete for the championship. Most teams play very little defense. All the records today that these players put up are invalid. You can’t even breathe on a player today without getting a flagrant file. When Chamberlin, Reed, Nate Thrumond and other big men played if you blocked the shot cleanly incidental body contact was not called a foul. Defensively guards could hand check and there would be no foul called.

    Clyde Frazier one of the greatest guards to have ever played the game and now an announcer for the Knicks has stated on numerous occasions that he doesn’t understand why defensively no one ever picks up shooters like Curry or Thompson when they cross midcourt. Instead they allow these shooters to literally dribble to the three point line before anyone gets near them. I watched one game this year and Curry had 5 wide open shots in a row from the 3 point line with no one near him.

    White guys are discriminated against in the NBA. They are lucky they even let them play. There is also a prejudice against white guys from Europe who are becoming some of the better NBA players. Kareem Abdul Jabbar has made many racist comments about the career of Dirk Nowitzki that he is over rated because he’s only won 1 championship. Jabbar played on teams of all stars and NBA hall of famers. Dirk never had that luxury.

    The best defensive basketball team I ever saw were the two Knick teams that won two championships. They placed 5 players on the 50 greatest NBA players of time. They put 6 players and the coach into the hall of fame (and one of their players Phil Jackson won 11 championships coaching and 2 with the Knicks). They played anticipatory defense which is a lost art. They had size. speed, quickness, and had shooters that went 8 deep. And they played as a team. They sacrificed for each other which for most of the NBA doesn’t exist especially for the brothers.

    Read More
    • Replies: @ben tillman

    White guys are discriminated against in the NBA. They are lucky they even let them play. There is also a prejudice against white guys from Europe who are becoming some of the better NBA players. Kareem Abdul Jabbar has made many racist comments about the career of Dirk Nowitzki that he is over rated because he’s only won 1 championship.
     
    Yeah, that's stupid.

    David Stern instructed the referees to cheat the Mavs out of a title in '06, and, if not for a knee injury in the WCF in '03, Dirk had an even chance at what would have been a third title -- with Shawn Bradley as his center.
    , @ScarletNumber
    Nitpick: Phil Jackson wasn't on the first Knick championship team.
    , @Anon
    Black bodies benefit disproportionately from PEDs. Eliminate PEDs, and you'll probably see greater parity.
    , @anonymous
    I remember those Knick teams well. They were indeed very good teams. However, they were also more than a little overrated by the NY dominated media some of whose members would try to make them into the greatest team of all time. Mr Russell's Celtics (10 championships in 12 years) might disagree. Indeed, in '68-'69 that same Knick team lost to the Celtics in the semifinals--a Celtic team clearly on the downswing but built for the playoffs. Russell and Sam Jones (aided by Havlicek, then in his prime) still had enough in the tank to win it all. I once heard Oscar Robinson interviewed during which he said that Jerry West should have been in '69-'70 by virtue of his having carried that Laker team for most of the season while Baylor and Chamberlain were convalescing from injuries and that the reason why Willis Reed won it was because he was playing for a NY team.
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  31. anonymous[376] • Disclaimer says:
    @Paleo Liberal
    So Brett Favre has the 21st Century record in 2005? I believe it.

    I saw the last Packer home game in 2005, Christmas Day vs. the Chicago Bears.

    End zone seats.

    I distinctly remember Brett Favre throwing a pick-six at that end zone. That was the worst season the Pack had with Favre.

    What really surprised me -- that was the first time I was in Lambeau Field. I've been to baseball games in Veterans' Stadium, Shea Stadium and the House that Ruth Built (all torn down now). I was used to some pretty obnoxious behavior from the fans.

    Obnoxious behavior is not tolerated at Lambeau Field. I saw people tossed for being rude to Chicago fans. Bear-baiting is NOT permitted.

    Favre hung on too long. After 2006 or 2007 he became essentially a “compiler” (of stats) Ichiro in baseball. These guys don’t know when to hang it up sometimes.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Nah, late in his career, Favre would go back and forth between bad seasons and brilliant seasons. In 2005 at age 36 he threw 20 TDs and 29 INTs. But in 2009 at age 40, he three 33 TDs and 7 INTs. You can see why guys with big egos and big talents hang around a long time: sometimes something good happens late in a career.
    , @Anon
    Ichiro had a very decent 2nd half career, having a good half-year with the Yankees in 2012 and a bit of a renaissance in 2016. He had a mediocre 2017 and hung it up this year, once it was obvious the bat speed was completely gone. His biggest problems was signing on as a 4th outfielder and getting pressed into everyday service because of injuries. Seemed to happen every year after 2012.

    Up until 2016, when he must of been 42 or 43, he was still the second fastest man from home to 1st. He still played good defensive, and he was a decent pinch-hitter option for the national league marlins.

    He suffered the same fate Rickey Henderson did. No matter how good of a condition they were in physically; no matter how fast they could still run at an advanced age; their bat speed slowed down to a crawl and they could no longer catch up to a major league fastball.

    As Ichiro technically hasn't retired, is still working for the Mariners, and the Mariners open up next season in Japan; I have a feeling we'll be seeing Ichiro in uniform one last series next spring as sort of a farewell celebration-stunt.
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  32. Polymath says:
    @Truth
    36/of 39 in a game? No no one, including whomever you are thinking of.

    12/15 from the field 24/24 from the line

    Read More
    • Replies: @Truth
    Oh, free throws. How droll.
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  33. Chebyshev says:

    This year the #1 draft pick might be Luka Doncic. Several others – Donte DiVincenzo, Grayson Allen, and Kevin Huerter – are also up and coming.

    Read More
    • Replies: @gsjackson
    I saw Doncic play in Madrid in December. He got tossed by the refs early over nothing (basically for being a good sport), but he was in long enough that you could see a fantastic feel for the game, and he carries himself like a star. Can't be sure, but I think Phoenix might come to really regret it if they take Ayton ahead of him. Oden ahead of Durant comes to mind.

    Europeans just have a vastly more diligent approach to athletic preparation than U.S. athletes, at least when self-motivation is the determining factor. Maybe their dominance in tennis isn't the best example, since, as Federer recently said, the state puts its resources behind promising prospects, but in my own sport of handball, where it's entirely self-motivation, the Irish have completely dominated us for years. They simply train harder and smarter.

    The next white American to be a great NBA player? Have there been any since Bird? Nash, a Canadian, doesn't count. Keep your eye on Mac McLung, from southwest Virginia, which is about 95 percent white (I agree with the point made earlier that top white players are going to come from a homogeneous environment where they don't deal with the ball hog/intimidation games of blacks.) He looks like Scott Skiles with a 47 inch vertical. Check youtube videos -- I guarantee you've never seen such dunks from a 6-2 white guy. Strangely he's off to play for Patrick Ewing next year.
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  34. @Truth
    36/of 39 in a game? No no one, including whomever you are thinking of.

    Dirk did it, Vada,

    Read More
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  35. @anonymous
    Favre hung on too long. After 2006 or 2007 he became essentially a "compiler" (of stats) Ichiro in baseball. These guys don't know when to hang it up sometimes.

    Nah, late in his career, Favre would go back and forth between bad seasons and brilliant seasons. In 2005 at age 36 he threw 20 TDs and 29 INTs. But in 2009 at age 40, he three 33 TDs and 7 INTs. You can see why guys with big egos and big talents hang around a long time: sometimes something good happens late in a career.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Paleo Liberal
    I remember correctly predicting Favre wouldn't last through his last season with the Vikings. Everyone thought I was crazy, and pointed out that Favre NEVER missed a game.

    I had looked at the scary strong pass rushers of Detroit (Suh and friends), Green Bay and Chicago. Then I compared it to the swiss cheese offensive line of the Vikings, and took Favre's age into consideration,

    He didn't last through that season.
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  36. @niteranger
    Today's NBA is a joke. Only a few teams have a chance to compete for the championship. Most teams play very little defense. All the records today that these players put up are invalid. You can't even breathe on a player today without getting a flagrant file. When Chamberlin, Reed, Nate Thrumond and other big men played if you blocked the shot cleanly incidental body contact was not called a foul. Defensively guards could hand check and there would be no foul called.

    Clyde Frazier one of the greatest guards to have ever played the game and now an announcer for the Knicks has stated on numerous occasions that he doesn't understand why defensively no one ever picks up shooters like Curry or Thompson when they cross midcourt. Instead they allow these shooters to literally dribble to the three point line before anyone gets near them. I watched one game this year and Curry had 5 wide open shots in a row from the 3 point line with no one near him.

    White guys are discriminated against in the NBA. They are lucky they even let them play. There is also a prejudice against white guys from Europe who are becoming some of the better NBA players. Kareem Abdul Jabbar has made many racist comments about the career of Dirk Nowitzki that he is over rated because he's only won 1 championship. Jabbar played on teams of all stars and NBA hall of famers. Dirk never had that luxury.

    The best defensive basketball team I ever saw were the two Knick teams that won two championships. They placed 5 players on the 50 greatest NBA players of time. They put 6 players and the coach into the hall of fame (and one of their players Phil Jackson won 11 championships coaching and 2 with the Knicks). They played anticipatory defense which is a lost art. They had size. speed, quickness, and had shooters that went 8 deep. And they played as a team. They sacrificed for each other which for most of the NBA doesn't exist especially for the brothers.

    White guys are discriminated against in the NBA. They are lucky they even let them play. There is also a prejudice against white guys from Europe who are becoming some of the better NBA players. Kareem Abdul Jabbar has made many racist comments about the career of Dirk Nowitzki that he is over rated because he’s only won 1 championship.

    Yeah, that’s stupid.

    David Stern instructed the referees to cheat the Mavs out of a title in ’06, and, if not for a knee injury in the WCF in ’03, Dirk had an even chance at what would have been a third title — with Shawn Bradley as his center.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anon

    David Stern instructed the referees to cheat the Mavs out of a title in ’06
     
    Evidence?
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  37. Proud to say my children are not sportsball fans at all. I consider that a great service to them and our race and what’s left of the FUSA.

    It would take $500/hour for me to watch the NBA finals ($850/hour if I had to pay income taxes on the money). And it would have to be in my own home with the sound off.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anon
    Proud to say my children are not sportsball fans at all.

    How did that come about?
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  38. Noah Way says:

    Thinly veiled racism. GFY

    Read More
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  39. Dr. Doom says:

    Actually the NBA has dispensed with most of the rule book to simply allow blacks to play. The dribbling and traveling rules were discarded due to the poor hand eye coordination making them lose the ball frequently. Those free throws they miss show how bad this really is. Without anyone even blocking them and right in front of the net, these goofs still miss half of them.
    Those lay-ups and dunks are actually against the rules. They are pretty much the only way to justify having an almost all-black squad or team. The felonies and bad press alone are a huge disaster.
    The thuggish “hippity-hop” stuff drove most fans away. The Anti-White themes were also a disaster. The open politicking is making ESPN die off. ESPN was the ONLY CHANNEL WILLING TO BROADCAST BASKETBRAWL.
    They say that the NBA playoffs are getting record ratings. SURE THEY ARE. All the cord cutting must be making them get 20% of the small and insignificant minority that still subscribes.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Pericles

    Those free throws they miss show how bad this really is. Without anyone even blocking them and right in front of the net, these goofs still miss half of them.

     

    Hey guys, what if we replace free throws with dunking from a trampoline?
    , @Hibernian
    You are the first person I was ever aware of in my entire life to allege that black people have poor hand eye coordination.
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  40. @Bill P
    You have to understand the racial dynamics of integrated community centers to know why whites have run from basketball. If you're a good white player you risk being subjected to aggravated assault every time you show up some black guy on the court. A friend of mine got knocked out cold back in the early 90s for nailing three pointers over black defenders. I, personally, wouldn't even set foot in the community courts back then.

    We white kids had the outdoors, but the indoor spaces belonged to the blacks (including my high school cafeteria -- we white kids ate outside even in winter). But this was in the Pacific NW. In sunnier places like CA the blacks probably had the outdoor spaces as well.

    “If you’re a good white player you risk being subjected to aggravated assault every time you show up some black guy on the court.”

    True. When there are no refs (police) around, black guys revert to the law of the jungle. I saw the same stuff in Ann Arbor at the outdoor courts. Went once, watched a white guy get beat up by a black guy for no reason at all and I never went back. Wasn’t that way before the 67 riots though. At least down in Indiana. When blacks realized that they had permission to riot and destroy property they metamorphized into subhuman monsters.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anon
    It was a one-on-one fight?

    And the white guy lost?
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  41. Anon[274] • Disclaimer says:
    @anonymous
    Favre hung on too long. After 2006 or 2007 he became essentially a "compiler" (of stats) Ichiro in baseball. These guys don't know when to hang it up sometimes.

    Ichiro had a very decent 2nd half career, having a good half-year with the Yankees in 2012 and a bit of a renaissance in 2016. He had a mediocre 2017 and hung it up this year, once it was obvious the bat speed was completely gone. His biggest problems was signing on as a 4th outfielder and getting pressed into everyday service because of injuries. Seemed to happen every year after 2012.

    Up until 2016, when he must of been 42 or 43, he was still the second fastest man from home to 1st. He still played good defensive, and he was a decent pinch-hitter option for the national league marlins.

    He suffered the same fate Rickey Henderson did. No matter how good of a condition they were in physically; no matter how fast they could still run at an advanced age; their bat speed slowed down to a crawl and they could no longer catch up to a major league fastball.

    As Ichiro technically hasn’t retired, is still working for the Mariners, and the Mariners open up next season in Japan; I have a feeling we’ll be seeing Ichiro in uniform one last series next spring as sort of a farewell celebration-stunt.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Early this season, 44-year-old Ichiro stole a home run with a leaping over the fence catch:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFASwl1gTg4

    , @Paleo Liberal
    One of my favorite end-of-career stunts was pulled by Tim McCarver with the Phillies in 1980.

    McCarver started his career in 1959, and originally wanted to retire after the 1980 season. By that point he was basically Steve "Lefty" Carlton's catcher and spokesman (Lefty NEVER talked with reporters. His catchers did the talking for him), while Bob Boone (Aaron Boone's father) caught the other pitchers.

    The Phillies needed a new home broadcaster for Channel 17 in Philadelphia. They made a deal that McCarver would go to the broadcasting booth, and would be brought up in the expanded roster in September.

    He played a few games that year, rather unspectacular, except for one at bat.

    One day I was watching a game, and McCarver left the broadcast booth to suit up. This was in the middle of a tight pennant race, which the Phils won by one game (they took their first WS that fall).

    Late in the game, McCarver pinch hit with men on base. He hit a 2 RBI double, winning the game for the Phils. It was his only hit of 1980, and the last of his career.

    http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/player.php?p=mccarti01

    Perhaps the second-greatest baseball achievement by an announcer (Dizzy Dean once pitched and won a game for the Browns when he was their announcer. He injured himself stealing third and was taken out of the game at his wife's demand.)

    McCarver wanted to play one game in 1990 as a publicity stunt, but the baseball commissioner vetoed it, saying it would hurt the integrity of the game. Considering how the game was tarnished by PEDs in those days, I doubt one plate appearance by McCarver would've disgraced the game of baseball.
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  42. Truth says:
    @Polymath
    12/15 from the field 24/24 from the line

    Oh, free throws. How droll.

    Read More
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  43. Anon7 says:

    My theory (ahem) is that black players are less likely to engage in rote repetition (called “running plays” by white players) and more likely to engage in the spontaneous creation of sequences of moves (once called “hotdogging” or “ball hogging” by white players).

    This same ability is the reason that there have always been more great black jazz musicians than white ones. Also the reason there are almost no female jazz musicians, in spite of the fact that there are many fine female classical musicians (there’s that rote repetition again).

    The black style of play is far more interesting to watch for most fans, and much more fun to do if you’re a player and can manage it (gets boring doing the same thing over and over, eh Tiger?). Sure, it would be fun to watch your white team run plays over and over and maybe win a championship, but only one team can do that each year. During a long season with many games, it’s more fun for most fans to watch black “jazz” than white “classical”.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Bill P
    I doubt it has anything to do with superior improvisation skills. The main difference is that blacks are on average somewhere between 3-4% faster than whites, which is an enormous advantage in sports. Remember that velocity increases force exponentially, so the effect is even stronger than a bell curve would suggest.

    The truth about improvisation, I suspect, is that no other race is as good as whites at making things up on the fly. If that were not the case, whites would still be confined to Europe and stuck in agriculture based societies like most of the rest of the world in the previous century.
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  44. @Anon
    Ichiro had a very decent 2nd half career, having a good half-year with the Yankees in 2012 and a bit of a renaissance in 2016. He had a mediocre 2017 and hung it up this year, once it was obvious the bat speed was completely gone. His biggest problems was signing on as a 4th outfielder and getting pressed into everyday service because of injuries. Seemed to happen every year after 2012.

    Up until 2016, when he must of been 42 or 43, he was still the second fastest man from home to 1st. He still played good defensive, and he was a decent pinch-hitter option for the national league marlins.

    He suffered the same fate Rickey Henderson did. No matter how good of a condition they were in physically; no matter how fast they could still run at an advanced age; their bat speed slowed down to a crawl and they could no longer catch up to a major league fastball.

    As Ichiro technically hasn't retired, is still working for the Mariners, and the Mariners open up next season in Japan; I have a feeling we'll be seeing Ichiro in uniform one last series next spring as sort of a farewell celebration-stunt.

    Early this season, 44-year-old Ichiro stole a home run with a leaping over the fence catch:

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anon
    Yeah, he could still do that , which is pretty impressive.

    And I think, like Rickey Henderson, in 10 years, he'll still be in great shape and look like he can still do everything but hit.
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  45. “there are almost no female jazz musicians.” You stepped onto my court, Anon7, and that’s complete bs. The jazz scene is awash with fantastic women players. Off the top of my head I can rattle off more than one hundred, not including pianists. Just thinking of brilliant saxophonists I’d start with Melissa Aldana, Kasey Knudsen, Jessica Jones, Claire Daly, Tia Fuller, Anat Cohen, Jane Bunnett, Jane Ira Bloom, Roxy Coss, Hitomi Oba, Caroline Davis, and, well, you get the picture. Ain’t nothing about improvisation that’s requires xy chromosomes…

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    At the edu-jazz level-that is to say, high school and community college music educators who come from the "jazz" rather than the "classical" pipeline-what is the male/female ratio?

    In pictures of touring big bands even in the seventies, eighties and nineties, I see a fair number of women only in military bands.

    At the top level, of concert-giving jazzers, what is the male/female ratio?

    I don't actively follow jazz beyond flipping through a magazine every once in a while or listening to public radio on rare occasions. But my sense is that jazz is still mostly male except for singers and singer/pianists. Female jazz guitarists and bassists and horn players are certainly out there, but seem a distinct minority.

    A very famous (by the standards of jazz singers) female (and white, and AFAIK not a (MoTT)) jazz singer once openly came on to me after a few minutes of intelligent (well, it seemed to me then) conversation in a hotel in New York once. She had a slightly odd face but had the body I go for, seemed clean and presentable, and all that. Alas, I was one scotch and soda past being able to provide an upstanding performance, and I knew it. About six months later, and about six months before 9/11, I was shocked and disappointed to learn that the poor woman threw herself out the window of her Manhattan apartment building. It was clearly suicide, and she left a note.
    , @Anon7
    I suppose I should have said “great jazz musicians”. I don’t doubt that everyone has their modern favorites, and you sound like someone who enjoys going to live performances. But google “best 50 jazz sax players”, “best 50 jazz pianists” and tell me if you can find even one list with a woman on it. Click the image tab and tell me how many women you see (that actually fit on the list).

    Men and women are different, AG. Disciplines or arts developed by and for men, which are the ones that define our Western Civilization, are done best by men. Men are the best basketball players, the best tennis players, the best soccer players, the best physicists, the best entrepreneurs - the list goes on endlessly. I’m not saying that there are no women who play basketball, or tennis, or soccer, or that no women get PhDs in physics or try being entrepreneurs. Many people enjoy watching Serena Williams, but if you include men, her world rank is probably 700.

    But, you’ve given me a good list to listen to. I appreciate that. Of course, if you google “support for women in jazz” you might find that if you want more of something, you subsidize it, so I won’t hold my breath.

    , @Pericles

    Just thinking of brilliant saxophonists I’d start with Melissa Aldana, Kasey Knudsen, Jessica Jones, Claire Daly, Tia Fuller, Anat Cohen, Jane Bunnett, Jane Ira Bloom, Roxy Coss, Hitomi Oba, Caroline Davis, and, well, you get the picture.

     

    Lol, I've never heard of any of them. Help fight the patriarchy!

    By the way, "Jane Ira Bloom"? You decide:

    https://www.theepochtimes.com/assets/uploads/2016/07/10/Jane-Ira-Bloom-700x420.jpg
    , @ScarletNumber
    You have proved a point, just not the one you intended to prove.
    , @obwandiyag
    Mary Lou Williams
    Sara Vaughan
    Ella Fitzgerald
    Get Real
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  46. Anonymous[506] • Disclaimer says:

    The league’s strategy in 1962 was to have the players run up and down the court and shoot fast in order to run up outlandish statistics to take some space in the newspapers away from the Pro Bowler’s tour.

    Bowling was that big then? I mean, like, bowling, with a ball and a wood lane and pins?

    When I was a kid bowling was the height of uncool. It reeked of Lawrence Welk and fat old truck mechanics and women with big round butts and lined faces who smoked long light menthol cigarettes.

    Local bowling lanes tried to hep the game up with “Rock’N’Bowl” promotions with fluorescent pins and blacklights and REO Speedwagon on the intercom. That only made it worse.

    Apparently some people considered cool in some quarters like a spot of the old tenpin now and again. I’m not sure what this means, though.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    My local bowling alley was jammed at 11 pm on a Thursday night recently.

    Bowling goes in and out of fashion every decade or two. It's kind of like Tiki Bars, which, as far as I can tell, are now back in fashion for about the the 3rd or 4th time in my lifetime.

    (In contrast, as far as I can tell, racketball has only been really popular once.)

    But bowling was biggest in the postwar era after the perfection of pin-setting machines made it more economical. In 1964 bowler Don Carter signed the first ever million dollar endorsement contract. Shortly afterwards it started to go out of fashion.

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  47. I would bet the NBA is more white now than in the Iverson/Kobe era.

    I’d bet also there’s fewer American whites than back then. It’s hard not to think scouts are biased in favor of the Euros over American white guys, but there haven’t been a huge number coming out of college ball anyway. More than a handful of modern players and stars are the sons of former players. What are the sons of the white players doing? Wall Street type gigs? Other than Luke Walton, I don’t know of a single second-generation white NBA player.

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    • Replies: @Galactic Overlord
    White second-generation NBA player? Not many of them, but they are around. I identified four that were on NBA rosters this past season.

    The most prominent example now playing, of course, is Kevin Love. His father Stan played four seasons in the NBA in the 70s. The most famous members of the family, however, have nothing to do with basketball. Four of the five founding members of The Beach Boys were Stan's older brother Mike and their first cousins Brian, Dennis, and Carl Wilson.

    Domantas Sabonis, now with the Pacers, is the son of Hall of Famer Arvydas. While they're Lithuanian, Domantas was born in Portland during his father's first season with the Blazers.

    John Stockton's son David was picked up by the Jazz for the last couple of months of the season.

    Luke Kornet, son of Frank (who played a couple of seasons with the Bucks), is on a two-way contract with the Knicks. As such, he played mainly for the Westchester Knicks in the G League, but could be called up by the Knicks proper at any time during the regular season (within certain limits), and wound up playing 20 games with the New York Knicks this season.
    , @Anonymous
    Kevin Love, LeBron James' best teammate, is white and the son of former NBA player Stan Love.

    Stan Love is the younger brother of Beach Boys co-founder Mike Love.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Love
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  48. @Anonymous

    The league’s strategy in 1962 was to have the players run up and down the court and shoot fast in order to run up outlandish statistics to take some space in the newspapers away from the Pro Bowler’s tour.
     
    Bowling was that big then? I mean, like, bowling, with a ball and a wood lane and pins?

    When I was a kid bowling was the height of uncool. It reeked of Lawrence Welk and fat old truck mechanics and women with big round butts and lined faces who smoked long light menthol cigarettes.

    Local bowling lanes tried to hep the game up with "Rock'N'Bowl" promotions with fluorescent pins and blacklights and REO Speedwagon on the intercom. That only made it worse.

    Apparently some people considered cool in some quarters like a spot of the old tenpin now and again. I'm not sure what this means, though.



    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zRoE0sb5jU

    My local bowling alley was jammed at 11 pm on a Thursday night recently.

    Bowling goes in and out of fashion every decade or two. It’s kind of like Tiki Bars, which, as far as I can tell, are now back in fashion for about the the 3rd or 4th time in my lifetime.

    (In contrast, as far as I can tell, racketball has only been really popular once.)

    But bowling was biggest in the postwar era after the perfection of pin-setting machines made it more economical. In 1964 bowler Don Carter signed the first ever million dollar endorsement contract. Shortly afterwards it started to go out of fashion.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    I always thought bowling was or used to be like golf and tennis for working class people.
    , @gsjackson
    Bowling was a network TV staple in the early '60s. I still remember the heartbreak circa 1961 when Ray "Blooper" Bluth left the 10-pin in the 12th frame for a 299 game. Around that time bowling, thanks to a new facility recently opened, was at the center of recreational life in northern Marin County.
    , @prosa123
    Racquetball's rapid rise and equally rapid fall makes it an unusual case. I'm reminded of it because the gym where I go occupies a former racquetball center, still visible in the interior layout. Racquetball came basically out of nowhere to become extremely popular in the 1980's, but within ten years almost entirely vanished. It's not as if any other racquet sports replaced it, as tennis underwent a similar though less severe decline and squash was and is an uncommon niche sport.
    I would say that former racquetball players gravitated to golf, which went through a big rise at the time, but the two sports are so different that seems a stretch. A round of golf takes far longer to play than a racquetball match.
    , @ScarletNumber
    Here in North Jersey a number of bowling alleys have closed, but the ones who survived have thrived and are very busy.

    Bowling was very popular here when Mark Roth was at the height of his career. NJ sponsors bowling as a high school sport, but the NCAA doesn't for men, which many boys don't realize until they try to get a bowling scholarship.

    There are NCAA bowling teams for women, though, with Nebraska being the most successful. Fun Fact: their coach is Bill Straub. Kim Berke was one of his bowlers and he ended up marrying her. Their daughter Meghan is a current Nebraska bowler. If this story sounds hot to you, you haven't seen Kim or Meghan.
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  49. Bill P says:
    @Anon7
    My theory (ahem) is that black players are less likely to engage in rote repetition (called “running plays” by white players) and more likely to engage in the spontaneous creation of sequences of moves (once called “hotdogging” or “ball hogging” by white players).

    This same ability is the reason that there have always been more great black jazz musicians than white ones. Also the reason there are almost no female jazz musicians, in spite of the fact that there are many fine female classical musicians (there’s that rote repetition again).

    The black style of play is far more interesting to watch for most fans, and much more fun to do if you’re a player and can manage it (gets boring doing the same thing over and over, eh Tiger?). Sure, it would be fun to watch your white team run plays over and over and maybe win a championship, but only one team can do that each year. During a long season with many games, it’s more fun for most fans to watch black “jazz” than white “classical”.

    I doubt it has anything to do with superior improvisation skills. The main difference is that blacks are on average somewhere between 3-4% faster than whites, which is an enormous advantage in sports. Remember that velocity increases force exponentially, so the effect is even stronger than a bell curve would suggest.

    The truth about improvisation, I suspect, is that no other race is as good as whites at making things up on the fly. If that were not the case, whites would still be confined to Europe and stuck in agriculture based societies like most of the rest of the world in the previous century.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    I suspect that the best black jazz musicians, are in fact better than the best white jazz musicians at a certain aspect of improvisation, and that this is related to instincts you'd need to survive in the sub-Saharan environment versus the European one.

    That isn't to say that blacks are necessarily better, or worse at being jazz musicians , or musicians generally, overall. Music is something blacks do well, as are athletics, although in any large enough group of blacks and whites considered at equal overall levels of skills there will be noticeably different trends between the groups.

    Running a modern civilization is pretty much unrelated to either, and in that department, blacks have yet to show any promise. But that's a separate issue entirely and should not cloud our judgment of them in music or athletics.
    , @Anon7
    I’m talking about spontaneous physical performance, the ability to physically create new sequences of movement or sound (which of course also requires physical movement) in the moment, it’s not just having a half-step on the other guy. Reference LeBron James or Art Tatum. I’m not talking about intellectual problem-solving, or coming up with new ideas, because yes, it’s obvious who invented Western Civ.
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  50. Anonymous[506] • Disclaimer says:
    @Andrew Gilbert
    "there are almost no female jazz musicians." You stepped onto my court, Anon7, and that's complete bs. The jazz scene is awash with fantastic women players. Off the top of my head I can rattle off more than one hundred, not including pianists. Just thinking of brilliant saxophonists I'd start with Melissa Aldana, Kasey Knudsen, Jessica Jones, Claire Daly, Tia Fuller, Anat Cohen, Jane Bunnett, Jane Ira Bloom, Roxy Coss, Hitomi Oba, Caroline Davis, and, well, you get the picture. Ain't nothing about improvisation that's requires xy chromosomes...

    At the edu-jazz level-that is to say, high school and community college music educators who come from the “jazz” rather than the “classical” pipeline-what is the male/female ratio?

    In pictures of touring big bands even in the seventies, eighties and nineties, I see a fair number of women only in military bands.

    At the top level, of concert-giving jazzers, what is the male/female ratio?

    I don’t actively follow jazz beyond flipping through a magazine every once in a while or listening to public radio on rare occasions. But my sense is that jazz is still mostly male except for singers and singer/pianists. Female jazz guitarists and bassists and horn players are certainly out there, but seem a distinct minority.

    A very famous (by the standards of jazz singers) female (and white, and AFAIK not a (MoTT)) jazz singer once openly came on to me after a few minutes of intelligent (well, it seemed to me then) conversation in a hotel in New York once. She had a slightly odd face but had the body I go for, seemed clean and presentable, and all that. Alas, I was one scotch and soda past being able to provide an upstanding performance, and I knew it. About six months later, and about six months before 9/11, I was shocked and disappointed to learn that the poor woman threw herself out the window of her Manhattan apartment building. It was clearly suicide, and she left a note.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    You might as well just say Susannah McCorkle. If you didn’t want to dox her the dates were not called for. She was a great singer but had deep emotional issues and was well known for winding up with some random fan in bed. It was her way to try to stop the depression, and only made things worse. Several of her family members committed suicide and were treated for manic depression without much success.

    That she killed herself was no surprise: that she made it to 55 and left us with a set of Songbook albums second only to Ella Fitzgerald’s was.
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  51. Anon7 says:
    @Andrew Gilbert
    "there are almost no female jazz musicians." You stepped onto my court, Anon7, and that's complete bs. The jazz scene is awash with fantastic women players. Off the top of my head I can rattle off more than one hundred, not including pianists. Just thinking of brilliant saxophonists I'd start with Melissa Aldana, Kasey Knudsen, Jessica Jones, Claire Daly, Tia Fuller, Anat Cohen, Jane Bunnett, Jane Ira Bloom, Roxy Coss, Hitomi Oba, Caroline Davis, and, well, you get the picture. Ain't nothing about improvisation that's requires xy chromosomes...

    I suppose I should have said “great jazz musicians”. I don’t doubt that everyone has their modern favorites, and you sound like someone who enjoys going to live performances. But google “best 50 jazz sax players”, “best 50 jazz pianists” and tell me if you can find even one list with a woman on it. Click the image tab and tell me how many women you see (that actually fit on the list).

    Men and women are different, AG. Disciplines or arts developed by and for men, which are the ones that define our Western Civilization, are done best by men. Men are the best basketball players, the best tennis players, the best soccer players, the best physicists, the best entrepreneurs – the list goes on endlessly. I’m not saying that there are no women who play basketball, or tennis, or soccer, or that no women get PhDs in physics or try being entrepreneurs. Many people enjoy watching Serena Williams, but if you include men, her world rank is probably 700.

    But, you’ve given me a good list to listen to. I appreciate that. Of course, if you google “support for women in jazz” you might find that if you want more of something, you subsidize it, so I won’t hold my breath.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Lots of good women classical musicians. Not too many women in jazz.
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  52. Anonymous[506] • Disclaimer says:
    @Bill P
    I doubt it has anything to do with superior improvisation skills. The main difference is that blacks are on average somewhere between 3-4% faster than whites, which is an enormous advantage in sports. Remember that velocity increases force exponentially, so the effect is even stronger than a bell curve would suggest.

    The truth about improvisation, I suspect, is that no other race is as good as whites at making things up on the fly. If that were not the case, whites would still be confined to Europe and stuck in agriculture based societies like most of the rest of the world in the previous century.

    I suspect that the best black jazz musicians, are in fact better than the best white jazz musicians at a certain aspect of improvisation, and that this is related to instincts you’d need to survive in the sub-Saharan environment versus the European one.

    That isn’t to say that blacks are necessarily better, or worse at being jazz musicians , or musicians generally, overall. Music is something blacks do well, as are athletics, although in any large enough group of blacks and whites considered at equal overall levels of skills there will be noticeably different trends between the groups.

    Running a modern civilization is pretty much unrelated to either, and in that department, blacks have yet to show any promise. But that’s a separate issue entirely and should not cloud our judgment of them in music or athletics.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    I think I first saw the assertion that blacks are better than whites at improvisatory stuff like jazz, running with the football, and preaching in a book by Nelson George, a black music critic and screenwriter with Chris Rock and the like, about 30 years ago. I remember thinking to myself: That can't be right or I would have thought of it. And then after about 10 seconds of thinking: Oh, yeah, I guess that is right.
    , @Anon

    Music is something blacks do well
     
    But that whites do better.
    , @Pat Boyle
    I generally know nothing about pop music. But I know a little about jazz. I have been to jazz clubs. I have spent a whole evening listening to Dizzy Gillespie when he was at the height of his fame.

    I'm sorry, I just don't think there's much to it.

    I know about opera. I had a small opera company for a while and I've sung about thirty operatic roles live on stage. I would have sung many more but I'm lousy at learning music. I - like Pavarotti - have difficulty getting the tune off the score and into my head. With his one in a million voice he could have a repitituer assigned to him to help beat it into his head. With my much more modest vocal gifts I was on my own.

    I couldn't memorize music but I could improvise. I'm a bass so I knew a lot of the Russian repertoire. I would drive around in my car composing ersatz Russian bass arias. I improvised the music. I improvised the lyrics (I don't speak Russian). Jazz musician usually start with well known pop tune and then add some variations. What I did was greater. I made up the melody, and the language.

    Maybe I'm wrong but jazz always seems to me to employ small forces and just involve variations of simple pop melodies. I suspect that the variations are stereotyped and repeated over and over on subsequent nights.

    When I was cast in Cosi fan tutte I couldn't learn all the correct secco recitatives so I just made them up. It's not hard. Just stay in the right key and sing with the right rhythm. Improvisation is really quite easy.
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  53. Anon7 says:
    @Bill P
    I doubt it has anything to do with superior improvisation skills. The main difference is that blacks are on average somewhere between 3-4% faster than whites, which is an enormous advantage in sports. Remember that velocity increases force exponentially, so the effect is even stronger than a bell curve would suggest.

    The truth about improvisation, I suspect, is that no other race is as good as whites at making things up on the fly. If that were not the case, whites would still be confined to Europe and stuck in agriculture based societies like most of the rest of the world in the previous century.

    I’m talking about spontaneous physical performance, the ability to physically create new sequences of movement or sound (which of course also requires physical movement) in the moment, it’s not just having a half-step on the other guy. Reference LeBron James or Art Tatum. I’m not talking about intellectual problem-solving, or coming up with new ideas, because yes, it’s obvious who invented Western Civ.

    Read More
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  54. Anonymous[118] • Disclaimer says:

    White Cucks – the main audience of the NBA – want to drool over (excuse me … admire) Black guys. So the NBA will stay majority Black.

    Read More
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  55. Anonymous[400] • Disclaimer says:
    @Steve Sailer
    My local bowling alley was jammed at 11 pm on a Thursday night recently.

    Bowling goes in and out of fashion every decade or two. It's kind of like Tiki Bars, which, as far as I can tell, are now back in fashion for about the the 3rd or 4th time in my lifetime.

    (In contrast, as far as I can tell, racketball has only been really popular once.)

    But bowling was biggest in the postwar era after the perfection of pin-setting machines made it more economical. In 1964 bowler Don Carter signed the first ever million dollar endorsement contract. Shortly afterwards it started to go out of fashion.

    I always thought bowling was or used to be like golf and tennis for working class people.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Hibernian
    Ironically, between tennis and golf, golf has more popular appeal even though it requires more real estate. In the neighborhood I grew up in, tennis courts doubled as outdoor basketball courts.
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  56. Anon[274] • Disclaimer says:
    @Steve Sailer
    Early this season, 44-year-old Ichiro stole a home run with a leaping over the fence catch:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFASwl1gTg4

    Yeah, he could still do that , which is pretty impressive.

    And I think, like Rickey Henderson, in 10 years, he’ll still be in great shape and look like he can still do everything but hit.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    When a great batter no longer has the bat speed to hit a major league fastball, what usually goes first: his reaction time to start his swing in time or his musculature to swing his bat fast enough?
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  57. Pericles says:
    @Dr. Doom
    Actually the NBA has dispensed with most of the rule book to simply allow blacks to play. The dribbling and traveling rules were discarded due to the poor hand eye coordination making them lose the ball frequently. Those free throws they miss show how bad this really is. Without anyone even blocking them and right in front of the net, these goofs still miss half of them.
    Those lay-ups and dunks are actually against the rules. They are pretty much the only way to justify having an almost all-black squad or team. The felonies and bad press alone are a huge disaster.
    The thuggish "hippity-hop" stuff drove most fans away. The Anti-White themes were also a disaster. The open politicking is making ESPN die off. ESPN was the ONLY CHANNEL WILLING TO BROADCAST BASKETBRAWL.
    They say that the NBA playoffs are getting record ratings. SURE THEY ARE. All the cord cutting must be making them get 20% of the small and insignificant minority that still subscribes.

    Those free throws they miss show how bad this really is. Without anyone even blocking them and right in front of the net, these goofs still miss half of them.

    Hey guys, what if we replace free throws with dunking from a trampoline?

    Read More
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  58. Pericles says:
    @Andrew Gilbert
    "there are almost no female jazz musicians." You stepped onto my court, Anon7, and that's complete bs. The jazz scene is awash with fantastic women players. Off the top of my head I can rattle off more than one hundred, not including pianists. Just thinking of brilliant saxophonists I'd start with Melissa Aldana, Kasey Knudsen, Jessica Jones, Claire Daly, Tia Fuller, Anat Cohen, Jane Bunnett, Jane Ira Bloom, Roxy Coss, Hitomi Oba, Caroline Davis, and, well, you get the picture. Ain't nothing about improvisation that's requires xy chromosomes...

    Just thinking of brilliant saxophonists I’d start with Melissa Aldana, Kasey Knudsen, Jessica Jones, Claire Daly, Tia Fuller, Anat Cohen, Jane Bunnett, Jane Ira Bloom, Roxy Coss, Hitomi Oba, Caroline Davis, and, well, you get the picture.

    Lol, I’ve never heard of any of them. Help fight the patriarchy!

    By the way, “Jane Ira Bloom”? You decide:

    Read More
    • Replies: @anonymous
    ...not to mention Mindy Abair.
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  59. Dave Pinsen says: • Website
    @Bill P
    You have to understand the racial dynamics of integrated community centers to know why whites have run from basketball. If you're a good white player you risk being subjected to aggravated assault every time you show up some black guy on the court. A friend of mine got knocked out cold back in the early 90s for nailing three pointers over black defenders. I, personally, wouldn't even set foot in the community courts back then.

    We white kids had the outdoors, but the indoor spaces belonged to the blacks (including my high school cafeteria -- we white kids ate outside even in winter). But this was in the Pacific NW. In sunnier places like CA the blacks probably had the outdoor spaces as well.

    This fellow seems to survive balling with black players.

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  60. @Anthony Wayne
    I would bet the NBA is more white now than in the Iverson/Kobe era.

    I’d bet also there’s fewer American whites than back then. It’s hard not to think scouts are biased in favor of the Euros over American white guys, but there haven’t been a huge number coming out of college ball anyway. More than a handful of modern players and stars are the sons of former players. What are the sons of the white players doing? Wall Street type gigs? Other than Luke Walton, I don’t know of a single second-generation white NBA player.

    White second-generation NBA player? Not many of them, but they are around. I identified four that were on NBA rosters this past season.

    The most prominent example now playing, of course, is Kevin Love. His father Stan played four seasons in the NBA in the 70s. The most famous members of the family, however, have nothing to do with basketball. Four of the five founding members of The Beach Boys were Stan’s older brother Mike and their first cousins Brian, Dennis, and Carl Wilson.

    Domantas Sabonis, now with the Pacers, is the son of Hall of Famer Arvydas. While they’re Lithuanian, Domantas was born in Portland during his father’s first season with the Blazers.

    John Stockton’s son David was picked up by the Jazz for the last couple of months of the season.

    Luke Kornet, son of Frank (who played a couple of seasons with the Bucks), is on a two-way contract with the Knicks. As such, he played mainly for the Westchester Knicks in the G League, but could be called up by the Knicks proper at any time during the regular season (within certain limits), and wound up playing 20 games with the New York Knicks this season.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    Ernie Vandeweghe's son played in the NBA, before becoming an NBA executive. His granddaughter is tennis pro CoCo Vandeweghe.
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  61. In the 1977 NBA finals, a mostly white team of Portland Trailblazers defeated a mostly black Philadelphia 76ers variety assortment of would-be superstars (a surprisingly ineffectual Dr J, a disastrous George McGinnis, Darryl Dawkins, World B. Free, etc).

    At least Darryl “Chocolate Thunder” Dawkins could dunk:

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    • Replies: @gsjackson
    And he was one of the great comedic geniuses of all time. Seriously -- a brilliant man.
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  62. @Anon
    Yeah, he could still do that , which is pretty impressive.

    And I think, like Rickey Henderson, in 10 years, he'll still be in great shape and look like he can still do everything but hit.

    When a great batter no longer has the bat speed to hit a major league fastball, what usually goes first: his reaction time to start his swing in time or his musculature to swing his bat fast enough?

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    • Replies: @ben tillman
    Or perhaps his eyesight?
    , @Anon
    For most players, it's definitely musculature- the loss of endurance and stamina for long seasons while dealing with nagging, persistent baseball injuries.

    Reaction time peaks at 23 to 25- so it's technically in decline for most player's whole careers and the better hitters who stick around to get at bats at 30,32,34 develop a series of skills and habits to replace raw reactions anyway. So from what I've read, older players show essentially no change to higher velocity pitching than to lower velocity pitching until around the age of 40. And that seems to be the wall for the non-steroid elite.

    Nor is there any correlation that older players use the experience and skills they learn to read a pitch before it's thrown by starting their swings early to catch up with high velocity pitches. If that were the case, there would be evidence that pitchers who are more adept at changing speeds would do particularly better than normal against older hitters and that is not the case. And finally, if it were the case, major league pitchers would exploit it. But the amount of fastballs thrown to batters on an age curve basically remains around league average...basically, once a rookie can show that he can hit a major league fastball his first time through the league, he is pitched to like a regular major leaguer for the rest of his career.

    When it is reaction times of 40 year olds like Ichiro or a non-steroid final season of Alex Rodriguez [and he was definitely off steroids for that last season considering how scrutinized he was and how chubby and slow he became], it can be absolutely brutal and noticeable to the average fan. I remember watching A-Rod against Tampa Bay early in the 2016 season and it was obvious to a fan just watching the game that A-Rod was 1)guessing at pitches 2)starting his swing so noticeably early to compensate. And for that series, and maybe for a week (top) afterward, it worked for him. But that's all it took for the league to catch on and he was more than toast.
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  63. @Anonymous
    I suspect that the best black jazz musicians, are in fact better than the best white jazz musicians at a certain aspect of improvisation, and that this is related to instincts you'd need to survive in the sub-Saharan environment versus the European one.

    That isn't to say that blacks are necessarily better, or worse at being jazz musicians , or musicians generally, overall. Music is something blacks do well, as are athletics, although in any large enough group of blacks and whites considered at equal overall levels of skills there will be noticeably different trends between the groups.

    Running a modern civilization is pretty much unrelated to either, and in that department, blacks have yet to show any promise. But that's a separate issue entirely and should not cloud our judgment of them in music or athletics.

    I think I first saw the assertion that blacks are better than whites at improvisatory stuff like jazz, running with the football, and preaching in a book by Nelson George, a black music critic and screenwriter with Chris Rock and the like, about 30 years ago. I remember thinking to myself: That can’t be right or I would have thought of it. And then after about 10 seconds of thinking: Oh, yeah, I guess that is right.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anon7
    I’ve submitted this here before, but listen to Andre Previn (at about 9:00) tell a story about Vladimir Horowitz (rote repetition) and Art Tatum (improvisation):

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=nDGzG-QWjAg

    Any list of great jazz pianists starts with Tatum.
    , @Ibound1

    blacks are better than whites at improvisatory stuff like jazz, running with the football, and preaching

     

    That is a limited view of improvisation. Far more important improvisation is found in engineering in almost every sphere. That is engineering a solution to an unplanned problem with limited materials on hand. Watch Apollo 13 to see the story of improvisation of carbon dioxide scrubbers. As for verbal improvisation, that is responding on your feet to what your opponent has said, not reiterating the same theme in a new way, does anyone compare to British parliamentarians, to Churchill?
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  64. @Anon7
    I suppose I should have said “great jazz musicians”. I don’t doubt that everyone has their modern favorites, and you sound like someone who enjoys going to live performances. But google “best 50 jazz sax players”, “best 50 jazz pianists” and tell me if you can find even one list with a woman on it. Click the image tab and tell me how many women you see (that actually fit on the list).

    Men and women are different, AG. Disciplines or arts developed by and for men, which are the ones that define our Western Civilization, are done best by men. Men are the best basketball players, the best tennis players, the best soccer players, the best physicists, the best entrepreneurs - the list goes on endlessly. I’m not saying that there are no women who play basketball, or tennis, or soccer, or that no women get PhDs in physics or try being entrepreneurs. Many people enjoy watching Serena Williams, but if you include men, her world rank is probably 700.

    But, you’ve given me a good list to listen to. I appreciate that. Of course, if you google “support for women in jazz” you might find that if you want more of something, you subsidize it, so I won’t hold my breath.

    Lots of good women classical musicians. Not too many women in jazz.

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    • Replies: @Autochthon
    It's useful to distinguish composition from performance. Europeans and men are superiour at the former; Negroes and females, when they are good, are good at the latter.

    Jazz, by its nature, often obscures the distinction, of course. The best of the best in jazz, though, are whites and male.
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  65. @Steve Sailer
    Lots of good women classical musicians. Not too many women in jazz.

    It’s useful to distinguish composition from performance. Europeans and men are superiour at the former; Negroes and females, when they are good, are good at the latter.

    Jazz, by its nature, often obscures the distinction, of course. The best of the best in jazz, though, are whites and male.

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    • Replies: @Anon7
    That’s contrary to the opinion of every white jazz musician I’ve ever read and every jazz enthusiast I’ve ever talked to. If all it takes is one counter example, listen to Art Tatum play solo.

    Yes, it’s only one guy playing.

    White jazz clarinet player Buddy Defranco said that trying to keep up with Tatum was like trying to chase a train. White musician Les Paul was an excellent jazz pianist, but you probably know him as a guitarist. Why? Listening to Art Tatum scared him so badly he decided to pick an instrument that he could make his mark with.
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  66. gsjackson says:
    @Chebyshev
    This year the #1 draft pick might be Luka Doncic. Several others - Donte DiVincenzo, Grayson Allen, and Kevin Huerter - are also up and coming.

    I saw Doncic play in Madrid in December. He got tossed by the refs early over nothing (basically for being a good sport), but he was in long enough that you could see a fantastic feel for the game, and he carries himself like a star. Can’t be sure, but I think Phoenix might come to really regret it if they take Ayton ahead of him. Oden ahead of Durant comes to mind.

    Europeans just have a vastly more diligent approach to athletic preparation than U.S. athletes, at least when self-motivation is the determining factor. Maybe their dominance in tennis isn’t the best example, since, as Federer recently said, the state puts its resources behind promising prospects, but in my own sport of handball, where it’s entirely self-motivation, the Irish have completely dominated us for years. They simply train harder and smarter.

    The next white American to be a great NBA player? Have there been any since Bird? Nash, a Canadian, doesn’t count. Keep your eye on Mac McLung, from southwest Virginia, which is about 95 percent white (I agree with the point made earlier that top white players are going to come from a homogeneous environment where they don’t deal with the ball hog/intimidation games of blacks.) He looks like Scott Skiles with a 47 inch vertical. Check youtube videos — I guarantee you’ve never seen such dunks from a 6-2 white guy. Strangely he’s off to play for Patrick Ewing next year.

    Read More
    • Replies: @The Anti-Gnostic
    Being in my 50s, when you said "handball" my first thought was that old game like racquetball, except with your hands instead of a racquet, and a hard, black rubber ball instead of a spongy blue one. I don't think anybody plays it anymore.

    In high school, I worked for a veterinarian who was an avid racquetball player. He told me he was originally a handballer who thought racquetball players were sissies. But then he realized continually slapping a rock-hard ball with your hands was inconsistent with being a surgeon.
    , @Galactic Overlord
    Incidentally, Mac McClung (not "McLung") had one black teammate this past season. You are right about the area he's from—the Tri-Cities region of Tennessee and Virginia (mostly Tennessee, though his hometown is on the Virginia side) is close to 95% non-Hispanic white.

    Incidentally, on the theme of second-generation white basketball players, Luka Dončić is himself the son of a professional player—though in his case, his dad played his entire career in Europe (specifically Slovenia, Serbia, and France).

    , @Chebyshev
    I had not heard of Mr. McClung! Maybe he could get some pointers from Jason Williams.

    DiVincenzo's performance in the NCAA championship game amazed me. He caught LeBron's eye. I personally hope he goes to a big basketball market like Brooklyn, Philadelphia, or Atlanta.

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  67. Phil says:

    I know this isn’t what you’re talking about, but it seems like the percentage of whiteness in the black guys in the NBA has already gone up

    The Balls being a product of their tall black ex jock, and his tall white volleyball playing wife, seems like a model that vaguely describes more than one prominent player.

    It does seem like the rule changes do encourage recruiting higher skilled players, that seems to somewhat advantage white guys.

    Against that grain, basketball seems more culturally niche these days than it did in Jordan’s heyday, and that niche goes against the niche that most white athletes come out of

    White NFLers at least seem to largely come out of deplorable culture http://thelab.bleacherreport.com/donald-trump-is-tearing-the-nfl-apart/

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  68. gsjackson says:
    @Seamus Padraig

    In the 1977 NBA finals, a mostly white team of Portland Trailblazers defeated a mostly black Philadelphia 76ers variety assortment of would-be superstars (a surprisingly ineffectual Dr J, a disastrous George McGinnis, Darryl Dawkins, World B. Free, etc).
     
    At least Darryl "Chocolate Thunder" Dawkins could dunk:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hTwsReYkGI

    And he was one of the great comedic geniuses of all time. Seriously — a brilliant man.

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    • Agree: Seamus Padraig
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  69. gsjackson says:
    @Steve Sailer
    My local bowling alley was jammed at 11 pm on a Thursday night recently.

    Bowling goes in and out of fashion every decade or two. It's kind of like Tiki Bars, which, as far as I can tell, are now back in fashion for about the the 3rd or 4th time in my lifetime.

    (In contrast, as far as I can tell, racketball has only been really popular once.)

    But bowling was biggest in the postwar era after the perfection of pin-setting machines made it more economical. In 1964 bowler Don Carter signed the first ever million dollar endorsement contract. Shortly afterwards it started to go out of fashion.

    Bowling was a network TV staple in the early ’60s. I still remember the heartbreak circa 1961 when Ray “Blooper” Bluth left the 10-pin in the 12th frame for a 299 game. Around that time bowling, thanks to a new facility recently opened, was at the center of recreational life in northern Marin County.

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  70. Anonymous[401] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous
    At the edu-jazz level-that is to say, high school and community college music educators who come from the "jazz" rather than the "classical" pipeline-what is the male/female ratio?

    In pictures of touring big bands even in the seventies, eighties and nineties, I see a fair number of women only in military bands.

    At the top level, of concert-giving jazzers, what is the male/female ratio?

    I don't actively follow jazz beyond flipping through a magazine every once in a while or listening to public radio on rare occasions. But my sense is that jazz is still mostly male except for singers and singer/pianists. Female jazz guitarists and bassists and horn players are certainly out there, but seem a distinct minority.

    A very famous (by the standards of jazz singers) female (and white, and AFAIK not a (MoTT)) jazz singer once openly came on to me after a few minutes of intelligent (well, it seemed to me then) conversation in a hotel in New York once. She had a slightly odd face but had the body I go for, seemed clean and presentable, and all that. Alas, I was one scotch and soda past being able to provide an upstanding performance, and I knew it. About six months later, and about six months before 9/11, I was shocked and disappointed to learn that the poor woman threw herself out the window of her Manhattan apartment building. It was clearly suicide, and she left a note.

    You might as well just say Susannah McCorkle. If you didn’t want to dox her the dates were not called for. She was a great singer but had deep emotional issues and was well known for winding up with some random fan in bed. It was her way to try to stop the depression, and only made things worse. Several of her family members committed suicide and were treated for manic depression without much success.

    That she killed herself was no surprise: that she made it to 55 and left us with a set of Songbook albums second only to Ella Fitzgerald’s was.

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  71. KenH says:

    And the mostly white Boston Celtics usually dispatched the black as the night Los Angeles Lakers until they starting getting old and injured. Celtics often had three white starters.

    In general blacks are better basketball players because they play a lot more than white kids (white kids don’t play year round since they play multiple sports unlike blacks), but the NBA shouldn’t be 80-85% black. It’s time whites use disparate impact against blacks and demand greater representation in the league.

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  72. @MikeatMikedotMike
    It was Christmas Eve, and the pick-6 was thrown to Lance Briggs. I was watching from my in-laws' house. :)

    No, it was Christmas Day. The friends who sold us their tickets had family stuff that day. This was a Christmas present to me and my son from my wife. At least the official record says Christmas day.

    https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/200512250gnb.htm

    I remember going through these medium sized cities in the Fox Valley, and NOTHING was open. I thought my son and I would grab some food at a MacDonalds or Wendys or whatever. Nope. All closed. We were able to buy some disgusting pastries at a gas station. I was used to living in bigger cities where stuff was open on Christmas.

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    • Replies: @MikeatMikedotMike
    You are correct! Here's where I make a self deprecating joke about age and memory.

    In regards to your following post - Favre's last play was a sack delivered by the Bears' Correy Wooton, late in the season at an outdoor stadium in Minnesota, because that was the year that the Metrodome ceiling collapsed. It was a cold one.
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  73. @Steve Sailer
    Nah, late in his career, Favre would go back and forth between bad seasons and brilliant seasons. In 2005 at age 36 he threw 20 TDs and 29 INTs. But in 2009 at age 40, he three 33 TDs and 7 INTs. You can see why guys with big egos and big talents hang around a long time: sometimes something good happens late in a career.

    I remember correctly predicting Favre wouldn’t last through his last season with the Vikings. Everyone thought I was crazy, and pointed out that Favre NEVER missed a game.

    I had looked at the scary strong pass rushers of Detroit (Suh and friends), Green Bay and Chicago. Then I compared it to the swiss cheese offensive line of the Vikings, and took Favre’s age into consideration,

    He didn’t last through that season.

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    • Replies: @Barnard
    The only reason Favre was still playing at that point was years of abusing pain killers.
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  74. phil says:
    @anonymous
    J. Irving was vastly overrated. Flash and glam. No outside shot, not much of a passer. Can't be spoken in the same breath with Larry Bird, let alone Lebron James

    While no serious analyst rates Erving higher than Bird or Lebron, he did average more than 24 points a game with a field goal percentage above 50 percent–granted, he was more of an inside scorer. He was a reasonably good passer, averaging more than 4 assists per game. He also average 8.5 rebounds per game from the small forward position.

    A genuine hall of famer.

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  75. @gsjackson
    I saw Doncic play in Madrid in December. He got tossed by the refs early over nothing (basically for being a good sport), but he was in long enough that you could see a fantastic feel for the game, and he carries himself like a star. Can't be sure, but I think Phoenix might come to really regret it if they take Ayton ahead of him. Oden ahead of Durant comes to mind.

    Europeans just have a vastly more diligent approach to athletic preparation than U.S. athletes, at least when self-motivation is the determining factor. Maybe their dominance in tennis isn't the best example, since, as Federer recently said, the state puts its resources behind promising prospects, but in my own sport of handball, where it's entirely self-motivation, the Irish have completely dominated us for years. They simply train harder and smarter.

    The next white American to be a great NBA player? Have there been any since Bird? Nash, a Canadian, doesn't count. Keep your eye on Mac McLung, from southwest Virginia, which is about 95 percent white (I agree with the point made earlier that top white players are going to come from a homogeneous environment where they don't deal with the ball hog/intimidation games of blacks.) He looks like Scott Skiles with a 47 inch vertical. Check youtube videos -- I guarantee you've never seen such dunks from a 6-2 white guy. Strangely he's off to play for Patrick Ewing next year.

    Being in my 50s, when you said “handball” my first thought was that old game like racquetball, except with your hands instead of a racquet, and a hard, black rubber ball instead of a spongy blue one. I don’t think anybody plays it anymore.

    In high school, I worked for a veterinarian who was an avid racquetball player. He told me he was originally a handballer who thought racquetball players were sissies. But then he realized continually slapping a rock-hard ball with your hands was inconsistent with being a surgeon.

    Read More
    • Replies: @gsjackson
    Its also inconsistent with orthopedic health, as my fake knee and hip will attest. And also, one might argue, with sanity.

    The game has definitely had participation problems since its peak in the early '70s. The average age of players now is probably about 15-20 years higher than it was then. One problem is that it used to be recommended as a great off season conditioner for many sports, especially baseball. Now everybody's in the weight room in the off season.

    In the U.S. the game has been dominated by whatever ethnic group is in the throes of assimilation. First the Irish, who brought it over, then the Jews from about the '30s to the late '70s, since then Hispanics (except at the very top). I'm told there are more exotic immigrant groups in NYC with whom it is currently popular, at least the one-wall version.

    In Ireland it's considered one of the three national sports, and there has been an effort to revive it in recent years, with some success.

    , @ben tillman

    Being in my 50s, when you said “handball” my first thought was that old game like racquetball, except with your hands instead of a racquet, and a hard, black rubber ball instead of a spongy blue one. I don’t think anybody plays it anymore.
     
    At the park down the street, the handball is constantly in use outside normal working hours. The players are almost always some sort of Hispanic.
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  76. @Anon
    Ichiro had a very decent 2nd half career, having a good half-year with the Yankees in 2012 and a bit of a renaissance in 2016. He had a mediocre 2017 and hung it up this year, once it was obvious the bat speed was completely gone. His biggest problems was signing on as a 4th outfielder and getting pressed into everyday service because of injuries. Seemed to happen every year after 2012.

    Up until 2016, when he must of been 42 or 43, he was still the second fastest man from home to 1st. He still played good defensive, and he was a decent pinch-hitter option for the national league marlins.

    He suffered the same fate Rickey Henderson did. No matter how good of a condition they were in physically; no matter how fast they could still run at an advanced age; their bat speed slowed down to a crawl and they could no longer catch up to a major league fastball.

    As Ichiro technically hasn't retired, is still working for the Mariners, and the Mariners open up next season in Japan; I have a feeling we'll be seeing Ichiro in uniform one last series next spring as sort of a farewell celebration-stunt.

    One of my favorite end-of-career stunts was pulled by Tim McCarver with the Phillies in 1980.

    McCarver started his career in 1959, and originally wanted to retire after the 1980 season. By that point he was basically Steve “Lefty” Carlton’s catcher and spokesman (Lefty NEVER talked with reporters. His catchers did the talking for him), while Bob Boone (Aaron Boone’s father) caught the other pitchers.

    The Phillies needed a new home broadcaster for Channel 17 in Philadelphia. They made a deal that McCarver would go to the broadcasting booth, and would be brought up in the expanded roster in September.

    He played a few games that year, rather unspectacular, except for one at bat.

    One day I was watching a game, and McCarver left the broadcast booth to suit up. This was in the middle of a tight pennant race, which the Phils won by one game (they took their first WS that fall).

    Late in the game, McCarver pinch hit with men on base. He hit a 2 RBI double, winning the game for the Phils. It was his only hit of 1980, and the last of his career.

    http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/player.php?p=mccarti01

    Perhaps the second-greatest baseball achievement by an announcer (Dizzy Dean once pitched and won a game for the Browns when he was their announcer. He injured himself stealing third and was taken out of the game at his wife’s demand.)

    McCarver wanted to play one game in 1990 as a publicity stunt, but the baseball commissioner vetoed it, saying it would hurt the integrity of the game. Considering how the game was tarnished by PEDs in those days, I doubt one plate appearance by McCarver would’ve disgraced the game of baseball.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Phil
    You know something you don't hear about very often?

    Guys who don't talk to reporters.

    I feel like when I was growing up in the late 80s to early 90s you heard about a lot of guys who wouldn't talk to reporters.

    I guess leagues have fined that out of existence?

    I guess a few years ago Marshawn Lynch had to be fined a few times in order to fulfill his league mandated media availability requirements, and then had some notable examples of saying the bare minimum when he did show up.

    Seems like that's much more uncommon than it used to be.
    , @ScarletNumber

    McCarver wanted to play one game in 1990 as a publicity stunt, but the baseball commissioner vetoed it, saying it would hurt the integrity of the game.
     
    This doesn't sound familiar. Are you confusing him with Minnie Miñoso?
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  77. prosa123 says: • Website
    @Steve Sailer
    My local bowling alley was jammed at 11 pm on a Thursday night recently.

    Bowling goes in and out of fashion every decade or two. It's kind of like Tiki Bars, which, as far as I can tell, are now back in fashion for about the the 3rd or 4th time in my lifetime.

    (In contrast, as far as I can tell, racketball has only been really popular once.)

    But bowling was biggest in the postwar era after the perfection of pin-setting machines made it more economical. In 1964 bowler Don Carter signed the first ever million dollar endorsement contract. Shortly afterwards it started to go out of fashion.

    Racquetball’s rapid rise and equally rapid fall makes it an unusual case. I’m reminded of it because the gym where I go occupies a former racquetball center, still visible in the interior layout. Racquetball came basically out of nowhere to become extremely popular in the 1980′s, but within ten years almost entirely vanished. It’s not as if any other racquet sports replaced it, as tennis underwent a similar though less severe decline and squash was and is an uncommon niche sport.
    I would say that former racquetball players gravitated to golf, which went through a big rise at the time, but the two sports are so different that seems a stretch. A round of golf takes far longer to play than a racquetball match.

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  78. Anonymous[182] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anthony Wayne
    I would bet the NBA is more white now than in the Iverson/Kobe era.

    I’d bet also there’s fewer American whites than back then. It’s hard not to think scouts are biased in favor of the Euros over American white guys, but there haven’t been a huge number coming out of college ball anyway. More than a handful of modern players and stars are the sons of former players. What are the sons of the white players doing? Wall Street type gigs? Other than Luke Walton, I don’t know of a single second-generation white NBA player.

    Kevin Love, LeBron James’ best teammate, is white and the son of former NBA player Stan Love.

    Stan Love is the younger brother of Beach Boys co-founder Mike Love.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Love

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  79. Phil says:
    @Paleo Liberal
    One of my favorite end-of-career stunts was pulled by Tim McCarver with the Phillies in 1980.

    McCarver started his career in 1959, and originally wanted to retire after the 1980 season. By that point he was basically Steve "Lefty" Carlton's catcher and spokesman (Lefty NEVER talked with reporters. His catchers did the talking for him), while Bob Boone (Aaron Boone's father) caught the other pitchers.

    The Phillies needed a new home broadcaster for Channel 17 in Philadelphia. They made a deal that McCarver would go to the broadcasting booth, and would be brought up in the expanded roster in September.

    He played a few games that year, rather unspectacular, except for one at bat.

    One day I was watching a game, and McCarver left the broadcast booth to suit up. This was in the middle of a tight pennant race, which the Phils won by one game (they took their first WS that fall).

    Late in the game, McCarver pinch hit with men on base. He hit a 2 RBI double, winning the game for the Phils. It was his only hit of 1980, and the last of his career.

    http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/player.php?p=mccarti01

    Perhaps the second-greatest baseball achievement by an announcer (Dizzy Dean once pitched and won a game for the Browns when he was their announcer. He injured himself stealing third and was taken out of the game at his wife's demand.)

    McCarver wanted to play one game in 1990 as a publicity stunt, but the baseball commissioner vetoed it, saying it would hurt the integrity of the game. Considering how the game was tarnished by PEDs in those days, I doubt one plate appearance by McCarver would've disgraced the game of baseball.

    You know something you don’t hear about very often?

    Guys who don’t talk to reporters.

    I feel like when I was growing up in the late 80s to early 90s you heard about a lot of guys who wouldn’t talk to reporters.

    I guess leagues have fined that out of existence?

    I guess a few years ago Marshawn Lynch had to be fined a few times in order to fulfill his league mandated media availability requirements, and then had some notable examples of saying the bare minimum when he did show up.

    Seems like that’s much more uncommon than it used to be.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anon
    After the wild, recreational drug-fueled 70s and 80s with their bitter labor disputes; MLB made a conscious effort to weed out personalities which were highly neurotic, disagreeable, anti-social and so on...

    Entering the 90s, you had players like Canseco who felt entitled to say some really obscene things to children in the stands. You had alleged child molester Mel Hall bullying young, introspective and sensitive Bernie Williams to the point of tears. You had Vince Coleman throwing bleach at fans; David Cone facing allegations of masturbating (and cocaine use) in the Mets bullpen in front of fans. You had Bobby Bonilla willing to show reporters "the Bronx" and Kevin Elster recounting his orgy-filled nights with any reporter in earshot...rape accusations aplenty...especially for those wild Mets teams.

    And I don't think the story has been written yet as to how badly recreational drug use became in Major League Baseball and what effects it had on the culture. It went from a sport of all american alcohol abuse and greenies to speedballs sometime in the early 70s. I believe one the many reasons the MLB turned it's head on steroids and performance enhancers is because the culture changed from a destructive hedonism to a more constructive one (for them). A guy obsessed with his physique may still be snorting cocaine but he's probably not doing copious amounts after every game. If he dies at 50,60-something after his playing days; well, that's an unfortunate hazard- at least the MLB isn't running the risk of one of their star players turning up dead in the middle of a road series at 20 or 30. Look at how quickly Jose Fernandez was memory-holed by the sport once his toxicology report came back with cocaine and alcohol in his system. Dead at 24- a nightmare for baseball.

    Doc Ellis, the star pitcher who cleaned his life up explained it well: when he started in the late sixties, he was a (self-described) angry young black man with alcohol problems. But the team leader, Roberto Clemente, didn't allow other substances into his Pirates clubhouse. Once Clemente died tragically in '70 and the old guard retired, it became an absolute free-for-all among many teams, including his own. Ellis talked about being uncertain about going to the Yankees until he was assured by someone (unnamed, as Ellis was no rat) on the team that they were "cool" about it. He said that those late 70s Yankees teams and New York were awash in every substance imaginable. That he himself, who couldn't simply be a dabbler like some guys, couldn't remember a single thing about his years in New York. Additionally, and bear in mind I cannot substantiate this bit of gossip, so take it with a grain of salt but; I've heard that Jackson's "stirring" of the Yankee clubhouse went beyond him merely being a loudmouth showboat. While no saint, he was against the rampant abuses, and expressive about it- which rankled teammates.

    Jackson of course went on to make anti-drug PSAs and is one of the most vocal hall of famers about keeping steroid/HGH users out of Cooperstown.

    So baseball definitely decided to breed better behavior by making personnel decisions around certain characteristics before a player even sniffs a major league roster. Over the last two decades, it's had an effect. Instead of saying so directly, they have filled the sport (and sports reporting) with eliding- jargon about searching for guys with "leadership qualities", "intangibles" and long discussions about "good clubhouse guys" and "clubhouse chemistry" discussions which always talk around the issues.

    It has also, for the owners, created a union of more compliant and agreeable individuals who've been losing ground (if not in goodies) in the seemingly perennial power games with the owners. Players definitely have more perks and bigger salaries than any in the past could've imagined but look at how willingly almost every player on a roster has become to jump through every hoop the owner asks of them- go the extra mile for fans, sit for every tv/newspaper interview without complaint, do the commercial, meet with sick kids....they are compensated, sure, but probably not to the extent the brand advertisement should probably pay. The guys in the 80s wouldn't have lifted a finger, let alone participate in the round-the-clock hustle the modern player does.
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  80. Anonymous[392] • Disclaimer says:

    White people are genetically inferior to blacks athletically. Come on Steve. You are an HBD guy right?

    So whites have as much a chance of dominating basketball as blacks do of dominating math.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Whites have better fine motor control and better endurance. Whites also do pretty well at the high jump.
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  81. gsjackson says:
    @The Anti-Gnostic
    Being in my 50s, when you said "handball" my first thought was that old game like racquetball, except with your hands instead of a racquet, and a hard, black rubber ball instead of a spongy blue one. I don't think anybody plays it anymore.

    In high school, I worked for a veterinarian who was an avid racquetball player. He told me he was originally a handballer who thought racquetball players were sissies. But then he realized continually slapping a rock-hard ball with your hands was inconsistent with being a surgeon.

    Its also inconsistent with orthopedic health, as my fake knee and hip will attest. And also, one might argue, with sanity.

    The game has definitely had participation problems since its peak in the early ’70s. The average age of players now is probably about 15-20 years higher than it was then. One problem is that it used to be recommended as a great off season conditioner for many sports, especially baseball. Now everybody’s in the weight room in the off season.

    In the U.S. the game has been dominated by whatever ethnic group is in the throes of assimilation. First the Irish, who brought it over, then the Jews from about the ’30s to the late ’70s, since then Hispanics (except at the very top). I’m told there are more exotic immigrant groups in NYC with whom it is currently popular, at least the one-wall version.

    In Ireland it’s considered one of the three national sports, and there has been an effort to revive it in recent years, with some success.

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  82. Barnard says:
    @Paleo Liberal
    I remember correctly predicting Favre wouldn't last through his last season with the Vikings. Everyone thought I was crazy, and pointed out that Favre NEVER missed a game.

    I had looked at the scary strong pass rushers of Detroit (Suh and friends), Green Bay and Chicago. Then I compared it to the swiss cheese offensive line of the Vikings, and took Favre's age into consideration,

    He didn't last through that season.

    The only reason Favre was still playing at that point was years of abusing pain killers.

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  83. There are no good white basketball players, my friend. Souvenirs, novelties, party tricks.

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  84. It’s kind of like Tiki Bars, which, as far as I can tell, are now back in fashion for about the the 3rd or 4th time in my lifetime.

    Yeah, Tiki bars are cool. Bowling was always a mid-western thing and has pretty much died out around here as the Mid-westerners have been replaced by Middle-Easterners.

    As for the NBA, its become incredibly boring. 82 games to get 16 team playoffs, then 2 months of playoffs, and now the same 2 teams in the finals.

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  85. @gsjackson
    I saw Doncic play in Madrid in December. He got tossed by the refs early over nothing (basically for being a good sport), but he was in long enough that you could see a fantastic feel for the game, and he carries himself like a star. Can't be sure, but I think Phoenix might come to really regret it if they take Ayton ahead of him. Oden ahead of Durant comes to mind.

    Europeans just have a vastly more diligent approach to athletic preparation than U.S. athletes, at least when self-motivation is the determining factor. Maybe their dominance in tennis isn't the best example, since, as Federer recently said, the state puts its resources behind promising prospects, but in my own sport of handball, where it's entirely self-motivation, the Irish have completely dominated us for years. They simply train harder and smarter.

    The next white American to be a great NBA player? Have there been any since Bird? Nash, a Canadian, doesn't count. Keep your eye on Mac McLung, from southwest Virginia, which is about 95 percent white (I agree with the point made earlier that top white players are going to come from a homogeneous environment where they don't deal with the ball hog/intimidation games of blacks.) He looks like Scott Skiles with a 47 inch vertical. Check youtube videos -- I guarantee you've never seen such dunks from a 6-2 white guy. Strangely he's off to play for Patrick Ewing next year.

    Incidentally, Mac McClung (not “McLung”) had one black teammate this past season. You are right about the area he’s from—the Tri-Cities region of Tennessee and Virginia (mostly Tennessee, though his hometown is on the Virginia side) is close to 95% non-Hispanic white.

    Incidentally, on the theme of second-generation white basketball players, Luka Dončić is himself the son of a professional player—though in his case, his dad played his entire career in Europe (specifically Slovenia, Serbia, and France).

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  86. Steve,

    FYI: The NBA team in Portland is properly rendered as Trail Blazers, not “Trailblazers”.

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  87. @Paleo Liberal
    No, it was Christmas Day. The friends who sold us their tickets had family stuff that day. This was a Christmas present to me and my son from my wife. At least the official record says Christmas day.

    https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/200512250gnb.htm

    I remember going through these medium sized cities in the Fox Valley, and NOTHING was open. I thought my son and I would grab some food at a MacDonalds or Wendys or whatever. Nope. All closed. We were able to buy some disgusting pastries at a gas station. I was used to living in bigger cities where stuff was open on Christmas.

    You are correct! Here’s where I make a self deprecating joke about age and memory.

    In regards to your following post – Favre’s last play was a sack delivered by the Bears’ Correy Wooton, late in the season at an outdoor stadium in Minnesota, because that was the year that the Metrodome ceiling collapsed. It was a cold one.

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  88. Marty says:
    @wiseguy
    Why do white Europeans do so much better than white Americans? Are the white Americans crowded out by black Americans, or is the US just relatively bad at developing talent in sports that other countries actually care about, e.g. basketball and soccer?i

    And BTW, how’s Lebron’s search for the real vandal going?

    The vandal most recently hit J.R. Smith’s place.

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  89. @art guerrilla
    1. don't bother much with a lot of pro sports for a lot of reasons, but simply don't care for the soap opera called the NBA where something like basketball is played towards the end of the season...
    .
    2. when you don't have anything called 'palming' anymore (putting the defender at disadvantage, because you can never tell when he is picking up the ball and lost his dribble, or flinging a pass); when you don't have anything called 'traveling' anymore (and particularly extended superstar travels); when you only have to barrel down the lane and dip a shoulder into a non-fouling defender to get a call; when establishing defensive position has no meaning; when you essentially allow the offense all the advantages and the defense none, then you have changed the face of basketball such that it is becoming a non-stop footrace to one goal, token D, then a foot race back the other way...
    .
    3. plays ? yeah, the NBA has one play: let four guys loaf around the corners while the superstar goes one-on-one... hell, why not go whole hog and just make the NBA a literal one-on-one league ? ? ?
    .
    meh, i'd much rather watch college chicka softball...

    meh, i’d much rather watch college chicka softball…

    No you wouldn’t.

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  90. @anonymous
    J. Irving was vastly overrated. Flash and glam. No outside shot, not much of a passer. Can't be spoken in the same breath with Larry Bird, let alone Lebron James

    Can’t be spoken in the same breath with Larry Bird

    Electronic Arts disagrees.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_on_One:_Dr._J_vs._Larry_Bird

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  91. @niteranger
    Today's NBA is a joke. Only a few teams have a chance to compete for the championship. Most teams play very little defense. All the records today that these players put up are invalid. You can't even breathe on a player today without getting a flagrant file. When Chamberlin, Reed, Nate Thrumond and other big men played if you blocked the shot cleanly incidental body contact was not called a foul. Defensively guards could hand check and there would be no foul called.

    Clyde Frazier one of the greatest guards to have ever played the game and now an announcer for the Knicks has stated on numerous occasions that he doesn't understand why defensively no one ever picks up shooters like Curry or Thompson when they cross midcourt. Instead they allow these shooters to literally dribble to the three point line before anyone gets near them. I watched one game this year and Curry had 5 wide open shots in a row from the 3 point line with no one near him.

    White guys are discriminated against in the NBA. They are lucky they even let them play. There is also a prejudice against white guys from Europe who are becoming some of the better NBA players. Kareem Abdul Jabbar has made many racist comments about the career of Dirk Nowitzki that he is over rated because he's only won 1 championship. Jabbar played on teams of all stars and NBA hall of famers. Dirk never had that luxury.

    The best defensive basketball team I ever saw were the two Knick teams that won two championships. They placed 5 players on the 50 greatest NBA players of time. They put 6 players and the coach into the hall of fame (and one of their players Phil Jackson won 11 championships coaching and 2 with the Knicks). They played anticipatory defense which is a lost art. They had size. speed, quickness, and had shooters that went 8 deep. And they played as a team. They sacrificed for each other which for most of the NBA doesn't exist especially for the brothers.

    Nitpick: Phil Jackson wasn’t on the first Knick championship team.

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  92. Brutusale says:
    @prosa123
    Young athletic white boys who might do well in basketball are going into other sports.

    Like lacrosse is taking a lot of kids who’d be playing baseball, physically-imposing white kids are looking to be the next Gronk or JJ Watt instead of playing hoops.

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    • Replies: @gsjackson
    I doubt that lacrosse is taking many significantly promising prospects from baseball. Parents in that suburban white demographic tend to know where the money is, and it isn't in lacrosse. These days any kid who shows good potential in baseball is put on a traveling select team at about age 8, and coached and encouraged to a fare thee well. If the baseball aptitude doesn't show by 10 or so, then they're switched to lacrosse or the highly egalitarian sport of soccer (just run around and have your foot make contact with the ball when it comes your way, and you won't suffer any of the embarrassing moments baseball specializes in).
    , @Marty T
    As more middle class white parents shy away from football, I wonder if basketball will see a bit of a comeback with white kids, especially as the game is a lot less thuggish than it used to be (at least at the pro level).
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  93. Anonymous[279] • Disclaimer says:
    @Bill P
    You have to understand the racial dynamics of integrated community centers to know why whites have run from basketball. If you're a good white player you risk being subjected to aggravated assault every time you show up some black guy on the court. A friend of mine got knocked out cold back in the early 90s for nailing three pointers over black defenders. I, personally, wouldn't even set foot in the community courts back then.

    We white kids had the outdoors, but the indoor spaces belonged to the blacks (including my high school cafeteria -- we white kids ate outside even in winter). But this was in the Pacific NW. In sunnier places like CA the blacks probably had the outdoor spaces as well.

    A friend of mine got knocked out cold back in the early 90s

    What happened?

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    • Replies: @Bill P
    He was violently shoved to the ground by a much larger guy, hit his head and got a concussion. For winning a pickup basketball game.
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  94. Anon[279] • Disclaimer says:
    @niteranger
    Today's NBA is a joke. Only a few teams have a chance to compete for the championship. Most teams play very little defense. All the records today that these players put up are invalid. You can't even breathe on a player today without getting a flagrant file. When Chamberlin, Reed, Nate Thrumond and other big men played if you blocked the shot cleanly incidental body contact was not called a foul. Defensively guards could hand check and there would be no foul called.

    Clyde Frazier one of the greatest guards to have ever played the game and now an announcer for the Knicks has stated on numerous occasions that he doesn't understand why defensively no one ever picks up shooters like Curry or Thompson when they cross midcourt. Instead they allow these shooters to literally dribble to the three point line before anyone gets near them. I watched one game this year and Curry had 5 wide open shots in a row from the 3 point line with no one near him.

    White guys are discriminated against in the NBA. They are lucky they even let them play. There is also a prejudice against white guys from Europe who are becoming some of the better NBA players. Kareem Abdul Jabbar has made many racist comments about the career of Dirk Nowitzki that he is over rated because he's only won 1 championship. Jabbar played on teams of all stars and NBA hall of famers. Dirk never had that luxury.

    The best defensive basketball team I ever saw were the two Knick teams that won two championships. They placed 5 players on the 50 greatest NBA players of time. They put 6 players and the coach into the hall of fame (and one of their players Phil Jackson won 11 championships coaching and 2 with the Knicks). They played anticipatory defense which is a lost art. They had size. speed, quickness, and had shooters that went 8 deep. And they played as a team. They sacrificed for each other which for most of the NBA doesn't exist especially for the brothers.

    Black bodies benefit disproportionately from PEDs. Eliminate PEDs, and you’ll probably see greater parity.

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    • Replies: @James Braxton
    I have suspected the same. Do you have a cite?
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  95. Anon[279] • Disclaimer says:
    @ben tillman

    White guys are discriminated against in the NBA. They are lucky they even let them play. There is also a prejudice against white guys from Europe who are becoming some of the better NBA players. Kareem Abdul Jabbar has made many racist comments about the career of Dirk Nowitzki that he is over rated because he’s only won 1 championship.
     
    Yeah, that's stupid.

    David Stern instructed the referees to cheat the Mavs out of a title in '06, and, if not for a knee injury in the WCF in '03, Dirk had an even chance at what would have been a third title -- with Shawn Bradley as his center.

    David Stern instructed the referees to cheat the Mavs out of a title in ’06

    Evidence?

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  96. Anon[279] • Disclaimer says:
    @The preferred nomenclature is...
    Proud to say my children are not sportsball fans at all. I consider that a great service to them and our race and what's left of the FUSA.

    It would take $500/hour for me to watch the NBA finals ($850/hour if I had to pay income taxes on the money). And it would have to be in my own home with the sound off.

    Proud to say my children are not sportsball fans at all.

    How did that come about?

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    • Replies: @The preferred nomenclature is...
    We haven't had cable for years. I don't watch sports, none of my friends watch sports either. Even when my son played baseball he never watched baseball. Basically, they've never been exposed to it.
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  97. Brutusale says:
    @James Braxton
    Only whites who grow up in an all white environment (French Lick, Spokane, Belgrade) will be able to develop into pro-quality basketball players.

    The few exceptions will be coaches' sons or some other outlier.

    French Lick’s most famous son says playing pick-up games with black resort staffers in town help him refine his game. He also had something that white kids playing basketball don’t have anymore: an indomitable will and the firm belief that he was the best.

    He’s also the only guy I ever saw get floor burns from chasing loose balls in an All-Star game.

    Will is as important as skill.

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    • Replies: @gsjackson
    That's a good point. Any white who has the potential to become a star in the NBA is likely to have Bird-like ego strength, or some reasonable approximation, and not be intimidated by black ego games. I mention Mac McClung as a paleface to watch because, like Bird and fellow small town Indiana lad Scott Skiles, he has all kinds of 'tude.

    BTW, Skiles leading his Plymouth, Indiana team to the state championship in '82 was an even more dramatic illustration of 'Hoosiers' than the story of the Milan, IN team the movie was based on.
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  98. Anon[279] • Disclaimer says:
    @ThreeCranes
    "If you’re a good white player you risk being subjected to aggravated assault every time you show up some black guy on the court."

    True. When there are no refs (police) around, black guys revert to the law of the jungle. I saw the same stuff in Ann Arbor at the outdoor courts. Went once, watched a white guy get beat up by a black guy for no reason at all and I never went back. Wasn't that way before the 67 riots though. At least down in Indiana. When blacks realized that they had permission to riot and destroy property they metamorphized into subhuman monsters.

    It was a one-on-one fight?

    And the white guy lost?

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  99. Screwtape says:

    Portland, in spite of the goodwhite progs prostrating (free happy hour for nonWhites anyone?) harder than any other majority white city, is under constant duress because of the unbearable whiteness of its population. If a city can’t be white, why would its team be allowed such? Its all LAX now. Even football is migrating toward flag over tackle. Then the white kids move on to something else.

    Fitting that a white city with a white team one the NBA title at the precipice of the coming darkening only to fall into the middling mediocre for the duration. The early ‘90s had a run but ended up on the wrong end of Jordan (and the dirty pistons) highlight reels.

    My favorite of the rule changes that saved the NBA was doing away with the carry/palming/traveling call, where the hand must remain atop the ball.

    Now that one can put the next dribble pretty much anywhere on the floor at any time, the “athleticism” is no longer constrained.

    Plus it helps compensate for the physical lack of space on the floor. Player sizes have increased but the court size has not. Anyone who has sat close enough to the floor to hear the unique language being used by the players certainly also notices just how small the court seems with 10 players (and 2 refs).

    Being able to carry the ball allows more space to be created. They may have gotten rid of the ghetto apparel but they definitely played into (heh) the ghetto ball handling.

    As a young man i played a lot of ball on city courts in vibrant areas. Aside from the constant racism, implied and explicit threat of violence, and language barrier, i was accepted.

    But only because i was very good. And i rarely talked smack. Winning and staying on the court trumps whiteness. For a while. I didnt linger much after playing. Some guy always had some issues he wanted to work thru on my white body.

    I earned the respec with my shooters hand (and steals on D) but it was always very clear: this was their court, their game, their ‘community’.

    Another schoolyard trend. My 3 ball was D1 college-level. Mostly out of necessity. They give you that shot. But you better drain it. So i practiced the long ball until i was a dead shot.

    The return of the 3 in the NBA makes sense given just how hard it is to penetrate as a guard given the size and athleticism camping in the paint.

    Im 5’10” by the way. So my phyaical intimidation effect was nil. I was good with the ball and could drive but it came with a hidden price: the potential for conflict.

    3’s are kind of impersonal, more like a ‘team rebound’, taking it to the rim, however, is personal. As are steals. Steals came easy to me. Blessing/curse.

    Driving meant i was going to get fouled and had to quickly decide whether i called foul or not, factoring in the temperament and severity of the foul. So i learned to make shots after hard contact; no need to cry foul.

    Theres an account of personal affronts
    i was allowed before some opposing player decided to call it in. This varied by game/team/court. Good times. I showed up with water, shoes on, bike close by. I learned quickly that a quick exit was appreciated.

    This experience has been a lifelong lesson in race relations, if you will.

    In the meantime. The left is expanding the court from sea to shining sea, and rewriting all the rules to mirror the vibrant schoolyard. So white kids better be really good, keenly aware of their place, and ready to exit in two heartbeats. What was the question again?

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    • Replies: @anonymous
    The Three Pointer has done as much as anything to change basketball. Curry makes his living at the three point line.
    , @Anon

    Aside from the constant racism, implied and explicit threat of violence, and language barrier, i was accepted.
     
    That doesn't sound like being accepted.
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  100. Anon[279] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous
    I suspect that the best black jazz musicians, are in fact better than the best white jazz musicians at a certain aspect of improvisation, and that this is related to instincts you'd need to survive in the sub-Saharan environment versus the European one.

    That isn't to say that blacks are necessarily better, or worse at being jazz musicians , or musicians generally, overall. Music is something blacks do well, as are athletics, although in any large enough group of blacks and whites considered at equal overall levels of skills there will be noticeably different trends between the groups.

    Running a modern civilization is pretty much unrelated to either, and in that department, blacks have yet to show any promise. But that's a separate issue entirely and should not cloud our judgment of them in music or athletics.

    Music is something blacks do well

    But that whites do better.

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  101. @Andrew Gilbert
    "there are almost no female jazz musicians." You stepped onto my court, Anon7, and that's complete bs. The jazz scene is awash with fantastic women players. Off the top of my head I can rattle off more than one hundred, not including pianists. Just thinking of brilliant saxophonists I'd start with Melissa Aldana, Kasey Knudsen, Jessica Jones, Claire Daly, Tia Fuller, Anat Cohen, Jane Bunnett, Jane Ira Bloom, Roxy Coss, Hitomi Oba, Caroline Davis, and, well, you get the picture. Ain't nothing about improvisation that's requires xy chromosomes...

    You have proved a point, just not the one you intended to prove.

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  102. Truth says:
    @James Braxton
    Only whites who grow up in an all white environment (French Lick, Spokane, Belgrade) will be able to develop into pro-quality basketball players.

    The few exceptions will be coaches' sons or some other outlier.

    Chris Mullin’s from Brooklyn.

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    • Replies: @James Braxton
    An exception that proves the rule. Plus I am guessing Mullin went to Catholic schools that allowed his talent to blossom.
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  103. Anon7 says:
    @Steve Sailer
    I think I first saw the assertion that blacks are better than whites at improvisatory stuff like jazz, running with the football, and preaching in a book by Nelson George, a black music critic and screenwriter with Chris Rock and the like, about 30 years ago. I remember thinking to myself: That can't be right or I would have thought of it. And then after about 10 seconds of thinking: Oh, yeah, I guess that is right.

    I’ve submitted this here before, but listen to Andre Previn (at about 9:00) tell a story about Vladimir Horowitz (rote repetition) and Art Tatum (improvisation):

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=nDGzG-QWjAg

    Any list of great jazz pianists starts with Tatum.

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  104. Anon7 says:
    @Autochthon
    It's useful to distinguish composition from performance. Europeans and men are superiour at the former; Negroes and females, when they are good, are good at the latter.

    Jazz, by its nature, often obscures the distinction, of course. The best of the best in jazz, though, are whites and male.

    That’s contrary to the opinion of every white jazz musician I’ve ever read and every jazz enthusiast I’ve ever talked to. If all it takes is one counter example, listen to Art Tatum play solo.

    Yes, it’s only one guy playing.

    White jazz clarinet player Buddy Defranco said that trying to keep up with Tatum was like trying to chase a train. White musician Les Paul was an excellent jazz pianist, but you probably know him as a guitarist. Why? Listening to Art Tatum scared him so badly he decided to pick an instrument that he could make his mark with.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Les was a very good but not great musician who was also a good but not great mechanic (in the old time sense) who understood basic electronics, but was no analog engineer either. What made him enormously artistically successful was putting them all together. Before tape he recorded on acetate and made his own record cutting lathes using Cadillac flywheels. Then he ordered -via the Ampex dealer in NYC, David Sarser, who was a violinist with Toscannini in the NBC orchestra-the first eight track tape machine. He ordered it and it was made by Ampex using their standard electronics, just more of them.

    Les never actually invented anything of substance. He did put it all together though, and probably no one else could have done all that as he did.

    Les did have serious alcohol issues and could be a real butthead at times. But he created a lot of great pop music and he did blaze a lot of trails. The irony is that he is best known for something he had not all that much to do with and never used in the form we know it today-the Les Paul Gibson guitar.
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  105. @Andrew Gilbert
    "there are almost no female jazz musicians." You stepped onto my court, Anon7, and that's complete bs. The jazz scene is awash with fantastic women players. Off the top of my head I can rattle off more than one hundred, not including pianists. Just thinking of brilliant saxophonists I'd start with Melissa Aldana, Kasey Knudsen, Jessica Jones, Claire Daly, Tia Fuller, Anat Cohen, Jane Bunnett, Jane Ira Bloom, Roxy Coss, Hitomi Oba, Caroline Davis, and, well, you get the picture. Ain't nothing about improvisation that's requires xy chromosomes...

    Mary Lou Williams
    Sara Vaughan
    Ella Fitzgerald
    Get Real

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  106. Anon7 says:

    Returning to the topic of whether white players will ever make a comeback, I’d point out that the culture has changed. I’ve said that watching the best black players play is more enjoyable for fans because it’s more fun to watch spontaneous creativity than rote repetition.

    Maybe some of you remember the dominant UCLA teams of the Wooden years (10 national championships in twelve years). If you were a Bruins fan who loved to see their team win, you loved it. Everyone else, not so much. Wooden was an iron-fisted disciplinarian who made players work hard for the percentage shot on offense (no three pointers then, and no dunking for lots of that era), running disciplined play after play. Worst of all, if the Bruins were up by six points with ten minutes left, they played keep-away for the remaining time (no shot clock). It was like watching a well-oiled machine. Boring, boring, boring. It’s one reason the rules were changed.

    Black merch, black cultural norms (like trash talking, frontin’, outsized egos) are all part of the show in basketball now; tickets, shirts, shoes, music, it’s big business.

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    • Replies: @gsjackson
    I have no affiliation with UCLA, but watching those Wooden teams was one of the biggest thrills I've had in sports. They were not over-regimented, ran whenever they could, had balanced scoring. It was a priority with Wooden to make the game fun for the players. Maybe you're confusing him with Bobby Knight, who once told Krzyzewski he would break his arm if he shot.

    And they did not hold the ball. Ever. The other team held the ball against them, at least USC once did. When asked about it afterward, Wooden said he didn't think it would happen often because "too many coaches have too much respect for the game." Dean Smith was the iconic coach who held the ball, sometimes for an entire half, and he virtually alone caused the rule change.

    The brief no-dunk rule was put in place to slow UCLA down when they had Alcindor/Jabbar.
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  107. Ibound1 says:
    @Steve Sailer
    I think I first saw the assertion that blacks are better than whites at improvisatory stuff like jazz, running with the football, and preaching in a book by Nelson George, a black music critic and screenwriter with Chris Rock and the like, about 30 years ago. I remember thinking to myself: That can't be right or I would have thought of it. And then after about 10 seconds of thinking: Oh, yeah, I guess that is right.

    blacks are better than whites at improvisatory stuff like jazz, running with the football, and preaching

    That is a limited view of improvisation. Far more important improvisation is found in engineering in almost every sphere. That is engineering a solution to an unplanned problem with limited materials on hand. Watch Apollo 13 to see the story of improvisation of carbon dioxide scrubbers. As for verbal improvisation, that is responding on your feet to what your opponent has said, not reiterating the same theme in a new way, does anyone compare to British parliamentarians, to Churchill?

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    • Replies: @ben tillman

    That is a limited view of improvisation. Far more important improvisation is found in engineering in almost every sphere. That is engineering a solution to an unplanned problem with limited materials on hand.
     
    But blacks are known for that, particularly the part about limited materials on hand. The "updated" term for this is Afro-engineering. Surely, we all know the old term.
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  108. Pat Boyle says:
    @prosa123
    Young athletic white boys who might do well in basketball are going into other sports.

    I was on my college basketball team. I did like a white man.

    Black men get on a team by jumping, shooting, dribbling and stuff like that. I couldn’t really do any of those things so I had to find another way. I did. I created my college basketball program. I was 6’4″ (tall for a civilian) and crazy about basketball. Alas I had none of the requisite athletic skills.

    I was at George Mason. But this wasn’t the George Mason with all the Economics Nobel Prize winners or the recent top black basketball team. This was the spin off of the University of Virginia in its first days. This was not at the big new modern campus in Fairfax. It was at an old abandoned elementary school at Bailey’s Cross Roads behind the fire house. There were only about two hundred and fifty students at the beginning of the year and one hundred and fifty in the Spring semester.

    There was no glee club, debate team, school newspaper or basketball team. So I had founded all of those activities. I was the captain of the debate team and the editor of the paper but only the back up center of on the basketball team. I was a really terrible player. The starting center was the President of the Student Assembly. I was the Vice President. Tall guys rule.

    The whole team was white probably because the whole school was white. We had no blacks and we had no wins. But I got to forever brag that I made my college basketball team. So there.

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    • Replies: @Marty T
    So you're saying there's another college called George Mason that plays bball in an abandoned elementary school??
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  109. anonymous[129] • Disclaimer says:
    @Screwtape
    Portland, in spite of the goodwhite progs prostrating (free happy hour for nonWhites anyone?) harder than any other majority white city, is under constant duress because of the unbearable whiteness of its population. If a city can’t be white, why would its team be allowed such? Its all LAX now. Even football is migrating toward flag over tackle. Then the white kids move on to something else.

    Fitting that a white city with a white team one the NBA title at the precipice of the coming darkening only to fall into the middling mediocre for the duration. The early ‘90s had a run but ended up on the wrong end of Jordan (and the dirty pistons) highlight reels.

    My favorite of the rule changes that saved the NBA was doing away with the carry/palming/traveling call, where the hand must remain atop the ball.

    Now that one can put the next dribble pretty much anywhere on the floor at any time, the “athleticism” is no longer constrained.

    Plus it helps compensate for the physical lack of space on the floor. Player sizes have increased but the court size has not. Anyone who has sat close enough to the floor to hear the unique language being used by the players certainly also notices just how small the court seems with 10 players (and 2 refs).

    Being able to carry the ball allows more space to be created. They may have gotten rid of the ghetto apparel but they definitely played into (heh) the ghetto ball handling.

    As a young man i played a lot of ball on city courts in vibrant areas. Aside from the constant racism, implied and explicit threat of violence, and language barrier, i was accepted.

    But only because i was very good. And i rarely talked smack. Winning and staying on the court trumps whiteness. For a while. I didnt linger much after playing. Some guy always had some issues he wanted to work thru on my white body.

    I earned the respec with my shooters hand (and steals on D) but it was always very clear: this was their court, their game, their ‘community’.

    Another schoolyard trend. My 3 ball was D1 college-level. Mostly out of necessity. They give you that shot. But you better drain it. So i practiced the long ball until i was a dead shot.

    The return of the 3 in the NBA makes sense given just how hard it is to penetrate as a guard given the size and athleticism camping in the paint.

    Im 5’10” by the way. So my phyaical intimidation effect was nil. I was good with the ball and could drive but it came with a hidden price: the potential for conflict.

    3’s are kind of impersonal, more like a ‘team rebound’, taking it to the rim, however, is personal. As are steals. Steals came easy to me. Blessing/curse.

    Driving meant i was going to get fouled and had to quickly decide whether i called foul or not, factoring in the temperament and severity of the foul. So i learned to make shots after hard contact; no need to cry foul.

    Theres an account of personal affronts
    i was allowed before some opposing player decided to call it in. This varied by game/team/court. Good times. I showed up with water, shoes on, bike close by. I learned quickly that a quick exit was appreciated.

    This experience has been a lifelong lesson in race relations, if you will.

    In the meantime. The left is expanding the court from sea to shining sea, and rewriting all the rules to mirror the vibrant schoolyard. So white kids better be really good, keenly aware of their place, and ready to exit in two heartbeats. What was the question again?

    The Three Pointer has done as much as anything to change basketball. Curry makes his living at the three point line.

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  110. JamesG says: • Website

    “Young athletic white boys who might do well in basketball are going into other sports.”

    Coming soon, the MLB dominated by (very ) tall white pitchers. Simple physics says longer arms = faster fast balls.

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    • Replies: @gsjackson
    Scouts have been proceeding on that assumption for decades, and for every hit they get like a Randy Johnson there are a thousand misses. As Tom Boswell wrote a few years ago, throughout baseball history the vast majority of highly successful pitchers have been between 5-10 and 6-2.

    Perhaps it's kind of like golf, where you don't see too many 6-6 low handicappers -- the bigger all those moving parts are, the harder it is assemble them into a repeatable motion.
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  111. gsjackson says:
    @Brutusale
    Like lacrosse is taking a lot of kids who'd be playing baseball, physically-imposing white kids are looking to be the next Gronk or JJ Watt instead of playing hoops.

    I doubt that lacrosse is taking many significantly promising prospects from baseball. Parents in that suburban white demographic tend to know where the money is, and it isn’t in lacrosse. These days any kid who shows good potential in baseball is put on a traveling select team at about age 8, and coached and encouraged to a fare thee well. If the baseball aptitude doesn’t show by 10 or so, then they’re switched to lacrosse or the highly egalitarian sport of soccer (just run around and have your foot make contact with the ball when it comes your way, and you won’t suffer any of the embarrassing moments baseball specializes in).

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    • Replies: @24AheadDotCom
    the highly egalitarian sport of soccer (just run around and have your foot make contact with the ball when it comes your way, and you won’t suffer any of the embarrassing moments baseball specializes in

    Pro soccer players indeed just stand there, kicking it around. No one ever notices their mistakes. I'm sure that's not what you meant but were just referring to school teams, etc.

    As for the blog question, who cares? NBA/NFL are to a good extent hostile to the interests of most whites (not just the MAGA droolers). Whites should play and/or support baseball, soccer, and other sports. There's no interest in engaging with NBA/NFL/etc; it's not like, say, refusing to read & comment on lib blogs.

    P.S. Well before Kap etc., Coulter, Medved, etc. hyped the NFL during the last WorldCup. Use that to undercut them to their fans.
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  112. Sean says:

    Will SJ Gould’s dwarf baseball pros of yesteryear and their bygone era stats come back?Like US whites ceasing to try heavyweight be ght boxers it is due to the declining evidence of culture. At one time there were even Jewish world champion boxers like Benny Leonard. But boxing is far more competitive now and the genetic component of success and a willingness to take drugs has become the key to pro sports success. Taking growth hormone is common among even rappers. Anyway, yes there probably are some whites tall, explosively powerful and agile enough to be star basketball players if they went into that, but they would face skepticism from managers and it would not be much fun for them; as they know, they would not be protected.

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    • Replies: @Anon
    Whites could make a relative comeback if PEDs are eliminated from basketball.
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  113. gsjackson says:
    @Brutusale
    French Lick's most famous son says playing pick-up games with black resort staffers in town help him refine his game. He also had something that white kids playing basketball don't have anymore: an indomitable will and the firm belief that he was the best.

    He's also the only guy I ever saw get floor burns from chasing loose balls in an All-Star game.

    Will is as important as skill.

    That’s a good point. Any white who has the potential to become a star in the NBA is likely to have Bird-like ego strength, or some reasonable approximation, and not be intimidated by black ego games. I mention Mac McClung as a paleface to watch because, like Bird and fellow small town Indiana lad Scott Skiles, he has all kinds of ‘tude.

    BTW, Skiles leading his Plymouth, Indiana team to the state championship in ’82 was an even more dramatic illustration of ‘Hoosiers’ than the story of the Milan, IN team the movie was based on.

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  114. Pat Boyle says:
    @Anonymous
    I suspect that the best black jazz musicians, are in fact better than the best white jazz musicians at a certain aspect of improvisation, and that this is related to instincts you'd need to survive in the sub-Saharan environment versus the European one.

    That isn't to say that blacks are necessarily better, or worse at being jazz musicians , or musicians generally, overall. Music is something blacks do well, as are athletics, although in any large enough group of blacks and whites considered at equal overall levels of skills there will be noticeably different trends between the groups.

    Running a modern civilization is pretty much unrelated to either, and in that department, blacks have yet to show any promise. But that's a separate issue entirely and should not cloud our judgment of them in music or athletics.

    I generally know nothing about pop music. But I know a little about jazz. I have been to jazz clubs. I have spent a whole evening listening to Dizzy Gillespie when he was at the height of his fame.

    I’m sorry, I just don’t think there’s much to it.

    I know about opera. I had a small opera company for a while and I’ve sung about thirty operatic roles live on stage. I would have sung many more but I’m lousy at learning music. I – like Pavarotti – have difficulty getting the tune off the score and into my head. With his one in a million voice he could have a repitituer assigned to him to help beat it into his head. With my much more modest vocal gifts I was on my own.

    I couldn’t memorize music but I could improvise. I’m a bass so I knew a lot of the Russian repertoire. I would drive around in my car composing ersatz Russian bass arias. I improvised the music. I improvised the lyrics (I don’t speak Russian). Jazz musician usually start with well known pop tune and then add some variations. What I did was greater. I made up the melody, and the language.

    Maybe I’m wrong but jazz always seems to me to employ small forces and just involve variations of simple pop melodies. I suspect that the variations are stereotyped and repeated over and over on subsequent nights.

    When I was cast in Cosi fan tutte I couldn’t learn all the correct secco recitatives so I just made them up. It’s not hard. Just stay in the right key and sing with the right rhythm. Improvisation is really quite easy.

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  115. anonymous[129] • Disclaimer says:
    @Pericles

    Just thinking of brilliant saxophonists I’d start with Melissa Aldana, Kasey Knudsen, Jessica Jones, Claire Daly, Tia Fuller, Anat Cohen, Jane Bunnett, Jane Ira Bloom, Roxy Coss, Hitomi Oba, Caroline Davis, and, well, you get the picture.

     

    Lol, I've never heard of any of them. Help fight the patriarchy!

    By the way, "Jane Ira Bloom"? You decide:

    https://www.theepochtimes.com/assets/uploads/2016/07/10/Jane-Ira-Bloom-700x420.jpg

    …not to mention Mindy Abair.

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  116. Anonymous[238] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous
    White people are genetically inferior to blacks athletically. Come on Steve. You are an HBD guy right?

    So whites have as much a chance of dominating basketball as blacks do of dominating math.

    Whites have better fine motor control and better endurance. Whites also do pretty well at the high jump.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous Jew
    Whites, on average, have more slow-twitch muscles, higher lung capacities, and shorter arms and legs. I'm not sure about motor control as blacks seem to do fine in baseball.

    Blacks never had to leave the ancestral human evolutionary homeland, and were thus not compromised by the ice age like Whites and Asians (shorter limbs, less dense bones, more and different fat distribution, mitochondria that creates more heat and less energy).

    Problem with comparing races in sports in that you need everyone playing the same sport in the same numbers. Sometimes this is easy. Take soccer and running. The Kenyans suck at the former, despite it being their mos popular sport, but dominate at distance running (but not sprinting). There's no mystery about who're the best runners because everyone does it. On the other hand, sometimes comparisons are hard, like in cycling. I suspect Amerindians could excel at cycling, but there aren't enough of them pursuing it. (Nairo Quintana got second in the Tour de France twice and won the Tour of Italy. That's pretty impressive considering the dearth of Amerindians in the sport).

    Blacks have:
    1) a flatter height bell curve despite being roughly the same height as Whites (see CDC data)
    2) more fast-twitch muscles (at the expense of slow twitch muscles; West Africans/Bantu only)
    3) longer limbs (arm length can be critical in basketball)
    4) low IQ can be a detriment, but Blacks are good at improvisational decision making (see Jazz) which could be helpful in basketball.

    I don't see Whites coming back in basketball. We'll always have a handful of great White players, and it won't be as bad as, say, distance running, but Whites will never come back in the same numbers.

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  117. Dave Pinsen says: • Website
    @Galactic Overlord
    White second-generation NBA player? Not many of them, but they are around. I identified four that were on NBA rosters this past season.

    The most prominent example now playing, of course, is Kevin Love. His father Stan played four seasons in the NBA in the 70s. The most famous members of the family, however, have nothing to do with basketball. Four of the five founding members of The Beach Boys were Stan's older brother Mike and their first cousins Brian, Dennis, and Carl Wilson.

    Domantas Sabonis, now with the Pacers, is the son of Hall of Famer Arvydas. While they're Lithuanian, Domantas was born in Portland during his father's first season with the Blazers.

    John Stockton's son David was picked up by the Jazz for the last couple of months of the season.

    Luke Kornet, son of Frank (who played a couple of seasons with the Bucks), is on a two-way contract with the Knicks. As such, he played mainly for the Westchester Knicks in the G League, but could be called up by the Knicks proper at any time during the regular season (within certain limits), and wound up playing 20 games with the New York Knicks this season.

    Ernie Vandeweghe‘s son played in the NBA, before becoming an NBA executive. His granddaughter is tennis pro CoCo Vandeweghe.

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  118. “This ought to be a lesson to people who say that baseball will never get itself out of its current rut of sabermetrics-derived Three True Outcomes play (homer, strikeout, or walk). It’s not actually all that hard to improve sports to make them a little more entertaining.”

    Compared to the other major team sports, MLB, as the oldest established of the US’s team sports, views itself as perfect unto itself. If it’s perfect, it doesn’t need to be fixed, much less recognize that long term problems exist. The Three True (or perfect) Outcomes means that there is no need to settle for less than perfect, since nothing beats the True Outcomes, which tend to decide everything about MLB strategy and how the game “ought” to be played. Period.

    It should also be noticed that MLB began its long decline in total number of fans (early/mid. ’80′s, with a small rebound in late ’90′s) and its decline among TV viewership afterward, as Sabermetrics gained the ascendency in MLB, and not before.

    In other words, prior to Sabermetrics self-appointed guarantor of how MLB strategy ought to be run, MLB tended to have greater number of fans as well as much higher share of TV ratings. Granted, there are several other factors: the newer generations tend not to care about MLB at all, video games, the internet, etc. have come along to compete even more for fans entertainment loyalties. However, in no small can the Three True Outcomes escape their responsiblity in the overall long term decline of MLB. The True Outcomes have transgressed a Cardinal Sin in America, and that is “Never appear to be boring at what you do, especially when it comes to entertainment.” And that is precisely what the Outcomes have made MLB. Boring, dull, and simply not worth one’s time, patience, or effort to enjoy any more.

    Suggestion: If Sabermetrics are here to stay, then perhaps there should be a compromise and allow the re-emergence of traditional stats (that have existed in some cases for over a century and a half) to be deployed in MLB strategy and given prominence as they once were for well near a century. The way it used to be done, during the Golden Age of Baseball (when it truly was the National Pastime).

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    • Replies: @gsjackson
    On your baseball attendance point: Huh??? From 1950 to the second decade of the 21st century average attendance increased steadily from 10,000 to over 30,000 per game.
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  119. anonymous[129] • Disclaimer says:
    @niteranger
    Today's NBA is a joke. Only a few teams have a chance to compete for the championship. Most teams play very little defense. All the records today that these players put up are invalid. You can't even breathe on a player today without getting a flagrant file. When Chamberlin, Reed, Nate Thrumond and other big men played if you blocked the shot cleanly incidental body contact was not called a foul. Defensively guards could hand check and there would be no foul called.

    Clyde Frazier one of the greatest guards to have ever played the game and now an announcer for the Knicks has stated on numerous occasions that he doesn't understand why defensively no one ever picks up shooters like Curry or Thompson when they cross midcourt. Instead they allow these shooters to literally dribble to the three point line before anyone gets near them. I watched one game this year and Curry had 5 wide open shots in a row from the 3 point line with no one near him.

    White guys are discriminated against in the NBA. They are lucky they even let them play. There is also a prejudice against white guys from Europe who are becoming some of the better NBA players. Kareem Abdul Jabbar has made many racist comments about the career of Dirk Nowitzki that he is over rated because he's only won 1 championship. Jabbar played on teams of all stars and NBA hall of famers. Dirk never had that luxury.

    The best defensive basketball team I ever saw were the two Knick teams that won two championships. They placed 5 players on the 50 greatest NBA players of time. They put 6 players and the coach into the hall of fame (and one of their players Phil Jackson won 11 championships coaching and 2 with the Knicks). They played anticipatory defense which is a lost art. They had size. speed, quickness, and had shooters that went 8 deep. And they played as a team. They sacrificed for each other which for most of the NBA doesn't exist especially for the brothers.

    I remember those Knick teams well. They were indeed very good teams. However, they were also more than a little overrated by the NY dominated media some of whose members would try to make them into the greatest team of all time. Mr Russell’s Celtics (10 championships in 12 years) might disagree. Indeed, in ’68-’69 that same Knick team lost to the Celtics in the semifinals–a Celtic team clearly on the downswing but built for the playoffs. Russell and Sam Jones (aided by Havlicek, then in his prime) still had enough in the tank to win it all. I once heard Oscar Robinson interviewed during which he said that Jerry West should have been in ’69-’70 by virtue of his having carried that Laker team for most of the season while Baylor and Chamberlain were convalescing from injuries and that the reason why Willis Reed won it was because he was playing for a NY team.

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  120. Anon[238] • Disclaimer says:
    @Screwtape
    Portland, in spite of the goodwhite progs prostrating (free happy hour for nonWhites anyone?) harder than any other majority white city, is under constant duress because of the unbearable whiteness of its population. If a city can’t be white, why would its team be allowed such? Its all LAX now. Even football is migrating toward flag over tackle. Then the white kids move on to something else.

    Fitting that a white city with a white team one the NBA title at the precipice of the coming darkening only to fall into the middling mediocre for the duration. The early ‘90s had a run but ended up on the wrong end of Jordan (and the dirty pistons) highlight reels.

    My favorite of the rule changes that saved the NBA was doing away with the carry/palming/traveling call, where the hand must remain atop the ball.

    Now that one can put the next dribble pretty much anywhere on the floor at any time, the “athleticism” is no longer constrained.

    Plus it helps compensate for the physical lack of space on the floor. Player sizes have increased but the court size has not. Anyone who has sat close enough to the floor to hear the unique language being used by the players certainly also notices just how small the court seems with 10 players (and 2 refs).

    Being able to carry the ball allows more space to be created. They may have gotten rid of the ghetto apparel but they definitely played into (heh) the ghetto ball handling.

    As a young man i played a lot of ball on city courts in vibrant areas. Aside from the constant racism, implied and explicit threat of violence, and language barrier, i was accepted.

    But only because i was very good. And i rarely talked smack. Winning and staying on the court trumps whiteness. For a while. I didnt linger much after playing. Some guy always had some issues he wanted to work thru on my white body.

    I earned the respec with my shooters hand (and steals on D) but it was always very clear: this was their court, their game, their ‘community’.

    Another schoolyard trend. My 3 ball was D1 college-level. Mostly out of necessity. They give you that shot. But you better drain it. So i practiced the long ball until i was a dead shot.

    The return of the 3 in the NBA makes sense given just how hard it is to penetrate as a guard given the size and athleticism camping in the paint.

    Im 5’10” by the way. So my phyaical intimidation effect was nil. I was good with the ball and could drive but it came with a hidden price: the potential for conflict.

    3’s are kind of impersonal, more like a ‘team rebound’, taking it to the rim, however, is personal. As are steals. Steals came easy to me. Blessing/curse.

    Driving meant i was going to get fouled and had to quickly decide whether i called foul or not, factoring in the temperament and severity of the foul. So i learned to make shots after hard contact; no need to cry foul.

    Theres an account of personal affronts
    i was allowed before some opposing player decided to call it in. This varied by game/team/court. Good times. I showed up with water, shoes on, bike close by. I learned quickly that a quick exit was appreciated.

    This experience has been a lifelong lesson in race relations, if you will.

    In the meantime. The left is expanding the court from sea to shining sea, and rewriting all the rules to mirror the vibrant schoolyard. So white kids better be really good, keenly aware of their place, and ready to exit in two heartbeats. What was the question again?

    Aside from the constant racism, implied and explicit threat of violence, and language barrier, i was accepted.

    That doesn’t sound like being accepted.

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    • Replies: @Screwtape
    Lol. I often played out of my mind, but i was never able to play out of my skin (color.)
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  121. @Paleo Liberal
    One of my favorite end-of-career stunts was pulled by Tim McCarver with the Phillies in 1980.

    McCarver started his career in 1959, and originally wanted to retire after the 1980 season. By that point he was basically Steve "Lefty" Carlton's catcher and spokesman (Lefty NEVER talked with reporters. His catchers did the talking for him), while Bob Boone (Aaron Boone's father) caught the other pitchers.

    The Phillies needed a new home broadcaster for Channel 17 in Philadelphia. They made a deal that McCarver would go to the broadcasting booth, and would be brought up in the expanded roster in September.

    He played a few games that year, rather unspectacular, except for one at bat.

    One day I was watching a game, and McCarver left the broadcast booth to suit up. This was in the middle of a tight pennant race, which the Phils won by one game (they took their first WS that fall).

    Late in the game, McCarver pinch hit with men on base. He hit a 2 RBI double, winning the game for the Phils. It was his only hit of 1980, and the last of his career.

    http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/player.php?p=mccarti01

    Perhaps the second-greatest baseball achievement by an announcer (Dizzy Dean once pitched and won a game for the Browns when he was their announcer. He injured himself stealing third and was taken out of the game at his wife's demand.)

    McCarver wanted to play one game in 1990 as a publicity stunt, but the baseball commissioner vetoed it, saying it would hurt the integrity of the game. Considering how the game was tarnished by PEDs in those days, I doubt one plate appearance by McCarver would've disgraced the game of baseball.

    McCarver wanted to play one game in 1990 as a publicity stunt, but the baseball commissioner vetoed it, saying it would hurt the integrity of the game.

    This doesn’t sound familiar. Are you confusing him with Minnie Miñoso?

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  122. Dwight and Angela had it right about jazz.

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  123. Chebyshev says:
    @gsjackson
    I saw Doncic play in Madrid in December. He got tossed by the refs early over nothing (basically for being a good sport), but he was in long enough that you could see a fantastic feel for the game, and he carries himself like a star. Can't be sure, but I think Phoenix might come to really regret it if they take Ayton ahead of him. Oden ahead of Durant comes to mind.

    Europeans just have a vastly more diligent approach to athletic preparation than U.S. athletes, at least when self-motivation is the determining factor. Maybe their dominance in tennis isn't the best example, since, as Federer recently said, the state puts its resources behind promising prospects, but in my own sport of handball, where it's entirely self-motivation, the Irish have completely dominated us for years. They simply train harder and smarter.

    The next white American to be a great NBA player? Have there been any since Bird? Nash, a Canadian, doesn't count. Keep your eye on Mac McLung, from southwest Virginia, which is about 95 percent white (I agree with the point made earlier that top white players are going to come from a homogeneous environment where they don't deal with the ball hog/intimidation games of blacks.) He looks like Scott Skiles with a 47 inch vertical. Check youtube videos -- I guarantee you've never seen such dunks from a 6-2 white guy. Strangely he's off to play for Patrick Ewing next year.

    I had not heard of Mr. McClung! Maybe he could get some pointers from Jason Williams.

    DiVincenzo’s performance in the NCAA championship game amazed me. He caught LeBron’s eye. I personally hope he goes to a big basketball market like Brooklyn, Philadelphia, or Atlanta.

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  124. @Anonymous
    Whites have better fine motor control and better endurance. Whites also do pretty well at the high jump.

    Whites, on average, have more slow-twitch muscles, higher lung capacities, and shorter arms and legs. I’m not sure about motor control as blacks seem to do fine in baseball.

    Blacks never had to leave the ancestral human evolutionary homeland, and were thus not compromised by the ice age like Whites and Asians (shorter limbs, less dense bones, more and different fat distribution, mitochondria that creates more heat and less energy).

    Problem with comparing races in sports in that you need everyone playing the same sport in the same numbers. Sometimes this is easy. Take soccer and running. The Kenyans suck at the former, despite it being their mos popular sport, but dominate at distance running (but not sprinting). There’s no mystery about who’re the best runners because everyone does it. On the other hand, sometimes comparisons are hard, like in cycling. I suspect Amerindians could excel at cycling, but there aren’t enough of them pursuing it. (Nairo Quintana got second in the Tour de France twice and won the Tour of Italy. That’s pretty impressive considering the dearth of Amerindians in the sport).

    Blacks have:
    1) a flatter height bell curve despite being roughly the same height as Whites (see CDC data)
    2) more fast-twitch muscles (at the expense of slow twitch muscles; West Africans/Bantu only)
    3) longer limbs (arm length can be critical in basketball)
    4) low IQ can be a detriment, but Blacks are good at improvisational decision making (see Jazz) which could be helpful in basketball.

    I don’t see Whites coming back in basketball. We’ll always have a handful of great White players, and it won’t be as bad as, say, distance running, but Whites will never come back in the same numbers.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous

    Whites, on average, have more slow-twitch muscles, higher lung capacities, and shorter arms and legs. I’m not sure about motor control as blacks seem to do fine in baseball.
     
    Blacks relatively underperform at baseball. Witness, for example, the composition of the ranks of pitchers. But also other MLB positions. Many blacks who do excel have Caucasian or Asian (Hispanic, Amerindian) ancestry. It may be that a high concentration of fast-twitch fibers is detrimental to fine motor control. One can imagine it tending toward a certain jerkiness, or lack of control.

    See also Tiger Woods, Steph Curry, Klay Thompson, or quarterbacks.

    How did the ice age contribute to lower bone density?

    , @Anonymous
    Another factor contributing to the better fine motor control seen in Caucasians and Asians versus blacks is limb length. Caucasians and Asians have shorter limbs (wingspan, for example).
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  125. About what fraction of white NBA players now are American-born?

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    • Replies: @Galactic Overlord
    I just went through all of the season-ending NBA rosters. Including players on two-way contracts, there were 95 white players on NBA rosters out of 510 roster slots (15 regular slots, 2 two-way slots). This number may not be quite accurate because I'm counting as white one Egyptian (Abdel Nader) and a couple of Latin Americans I'm not totally sure about (J.J. Barea, a Puerto Rican, and Raul Neto, a Brazilian). Also, I'm omitting players who have confirmed non-white ancestry, with notable examples being the Lopez twins (Afro-Cuban on father's side), Kyle Kuzma (at least one African-American parent), and Steven Adams (New Zealander with white English father and Tongan mother).

    With those caveats in mind, here's the breakdown:

    41 were born in the US. This count, however, includes two US-born players who represent European national teams. Kosta Koufos has represented Greece, but he was born and raised in Ohio and played one season at Ohio State; he was a Greek citizen by birth because his parents were Greek immigrants. The other is Domantas Sabonis (Lithuanian born in Portland, OR), whom I mentioned earlier in this thread. Unlike Koufos, he developed mainly in Europe, only returning to the States to play two seasons at Gonzaga.

    One player, T. J. Leaf, was born in Israel to American parents (his dad was playing pro ball in Israel at the time) and grew up in the San Diego area. He has represented Israel at under-18 level.

    For completeness' sake, there were anywhere from 44 to 47 Europeans (defined as countries within FIBA's European zone), depending on how you count Koufos, Leaf, and Sabonis. As for other nationalities... Latin Americans: Barea, Neto, and Manu Ginóbili. Aussies: Aron Baynes (born in NZ, but raised in Australia), Matthew Dellavedova, and Joe Ingles. Canadians: Kelly Olynyk and Nik Stauskas. North African: Nader.

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  126. Dr J shot 50% field goals for career and was a good defender and passer. The Sixers made 4 finals in his time there. Not overrated. Don’t use Bird. Bird, for a time, was the best player in the league. Very few compare to Bird 80-86.

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  127. @Steve Sailer
    When a great batter no longer has the bat speed to hit a major league fastball, what usually goes first: his reaction time to start his swing in time or his musculature to swing his bat fast enough?

    Or perhaps his eyesight?

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  128. @The Anti-Gnostic
    Being in my 50s, when you said "handball" my first thought was that old game like racquetball, except with your hands instead of a racquet, and a hard, black rubber ball instead of a spongy blue one. I don't think anybody plays it anymore.

    In high school, I worked for a veterinarian who was an avid racquetball player. He told me he was originally a handballer who thought racquetball players were sissies. But then he realized continually slapping a rock-hard ball with your hands was inconsistent with being a surgeon.

    Being in my 50s, when you said “handball” my first thought was that old game like racquetball, except with your hands instead of a racquet, and a hard, black rubber ball instead of a spongy blue one. I don’t think anybody plays it anymore.

    At the park down the street, the handball is constantly in use outside normal working hours. The players are almost always some sort of Hispanic.

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  129. OFWHAP says:
    @snorlax
    White boys who are ≥6'6" tall are going into other sports??

    Professional wrestling has/had a lot of tall, white men. Think “Big Sexy” Kevin Nash (former college b-ball player), The Undertaker, Kane, Andre the Giant, The Big Show, etc.

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  130. @Anon
    Black bodies benefit disproportionately from PEDs. Eliminate PEDs, and you'll probably see greater parity.

    I have suspected the same. Do you have a cite?

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  131. On the other hand, US Men’s Volleyball has entered the top tier of world volleyball, as tall (but not too tall) boys are starting to realize they’re systematically being selected against in B-ball.

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  132. Screwtape says:
    @Anon

    Aside from the constant racism, implied and explicit threat of violence, and language barrier, i was accepted.
     
    That doesn't sound like being accepted.

    Lol. I often played out of my mind, but i was never able to play out of my skin (color.)

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  133. @Truth
    Chris Mullin's from Brooklyn.

    An exception that proves the rule. Plus I am guessing Mullin went to Catholic schools that allowed his talent to blossom.

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  134. Similarly, the last two seasons, Westbrook has recorded triple doubles for the entire season (averaging double digits per game in points, rebounds, and assists).

    Sorry to be a stickler, but “averaging double digits per game in points, rebounds, and assists” is not at all the same thing as “record[ing] triple doubles for the entire season” – the latter would require double digits in points, rebounds, and assists in each individual game of the season.

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  135. Bill P says:
    @Anonymous

    A friend of mine got knocked out cold back in the early 90s
     
    What happened?

    He was violently shoved to the ground by a much larger guy, hit his head and got a concussion. For winning a pickup basketball game.

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  136. Hibernian says:
    @Dr. Doom
    Actually the NBA has dispensed with most of the rule book to simply allow blacks to play. The dribbling and traveling rules were discarded due to the poor hand eye coordination making them lose the ball frequently. Those free throws they miss show how bad this really is. Without anyone even blocking them and right in front of the net, these goofs still miss half of them.
    Those lay-ups and dunks are actually against the rules. They are pretty much the only way to justify having an almost all-black squad or team. The felonies and bad press alone are a huge disaster.
    The thuggish "hippity-hop" stuff drove most fans away. The Anti-White themes were also a disaster. The open politicking is making ESPN die off. ESPN was the ONLY CHANNEL WILLING TO BROADCAST BASKETBRAWL.
    They say that the NBA playoffs are getting record ratings. SURE THEY ARE. All the cord cutting must be making them get 20% of the small and insignificant minority that still subscribes.

    You are the first person I was ever aware of in my entire life to allege that black people have poor hand eye coordination.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Blacks have good body coordination, including coordinating their arms and legs with their body.

    They are less good--relative to Whites and Asians--at the kind of hand-eye coordination involved in manipulating props (balls, raquets, other marksmanship). It may be that fast -twitch muscles are a detriment in this area.

    It's one reason Tiger Woods is part Caucasian and Asian, and Steph Curry and Klay Thompson are at least half Caucasian if not more. And why so many top quarterbacks and pitchers are White.
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  137. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anon7
    That’s contrary to the opinion of every white jazz musician I’ve ever read and every jazz enthusiast I’ve ever talked to. If all it takes is one counter example, listen to Art Tatum play solo.

    Yes, it’s only one guy playing.

    White jazz clarinet player Buddy Defranco said that trying to keep up with Tatum was like trying to chase a train. White musician Les Paul was an excellent jazz pianist, but you probably know him as a guitarist. Why? Listening to Art Tatum scared him so badly he decided to pick an instrument that he could make his mark with.

    Les was a very good but not great musician who was also a good but not great mechanic (in the old time sense) who understood basic electronics, but was no analog engineer either. What made him enormously artistically successful was putting them all together. Before tape he recorded on acetate and made his own record cutting lathes using Cadillac flywheels. Then he ordered -via the Ampex dealer in NYC, David Sarser, who was a violinist with Toscannini in the NBC orchestra-the first eight track tape machine. He ordered it and it was made by Ampex using their standard electronics, just more of them.

    Les never actually invented anything of substance. He did put it all together though, and probably no one else could have done all that as he did.

    Les did have serious alcohol issues and could be a real butthead at times. But he created a lot of great pop music and he did blaze a lot of trails. The irony is that he is best known for something he had not all that much to do with and never used in the form we know it today-the Les Paul Gibson guitar.

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  138. Hibernian says:
    @Anonymous
    I always thought bowling was or used to be like golf and tennis for working class people.

    Ironically, between tennis and golf, golf has more popular appeal even though it requires more real estate. In the neighborhood I grew up in, tennis courts doubled as outdoor basketball courts.

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  139. Screwtape says:
    @Bill P
    You have to understand the racial dynamics of integrated community centers to know why whites have run from basketball. If you're a good white player you risk being subjected to aggravated assault every time you show up some black guy on the court. A friend of mine got knocked out cold back in the early 90s for nailing three pointers over black defenders. I, personally, wouldn't even set foot in the community courts back then.

    We white kids had the outdoors, but the indoor spaces belonged to the blacks (including my high school cafeteria -- we white kids ate outside even in winter). But this was in the Pacific NW. In sunnier places like CA the blacks probably had the outdoor spaces as well.

    This jives with my experience.

    In CA they controlled outdoor courts too. Community centers were slightly better but only because the mexican kids kept things in a kind of threeway balance.

    What they lacked in height they made up for in numbers and in older cousins who always seemed to be right around the corner. Early to mid 90’s were an interesting time.

    Interestingly, i also played in upscale neighborhoods. Mostly well off white guys who were ex HS or college players and their buddies from work.

    Word would get out that there was a competitive game running and then we’d get a black guy or two showing up. It would immediately change the dynamic from agreeable lunchtime ball to schoolyard rules and a certain vibe.

    Soon enough two carloads of thier friends would show. And it would get heated, both in good and bad ways.

    Always ended in a fight and we’d lose guys (the friends of friends, weaker players) until it was just the same shitshow it was down in my old hood. Thats when i quit entirely and focused on my surfing.

    I played a bit more when i moved to an evil white state (blue state actually) but the cycle continued even here. Love the game, but i havent watched the NBA in 15 years. Just reminds me of the yard and all that posturing and honor culture bullshit. To put in as tactfully as i care to.

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  140. I have to call out Sailer on his “surprisingly ineffectual” assessment of Dr J. In the 6 game series he avgd 30.3 pts, 54% fg, 86% ft, 6.5 reb, 5 ast, 2.7 stls. The Sixers had no one to counter Walton.

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    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Thanks. I was more referring to how it took Dr. J. a few years to get up to his best again after the ABA shut down. He was a legendary terror in the ABA and then eventually won an MVP in the NBA, but his first seasons in the NBA were kind of a dip.

    Probably playing along side George McGinniss didn't help. Erving wasn't a Jordan-like give-me-the-damn-ball alpha dog. He was more of a great teammate. The post-ABA Sixers were over-stuffed with talent and it took them awhile to get sorted out who they should keep and who they should move.

    Here's an old time basketball mavens' question: how valuable would the offensive genius Adrian Dantley have been on a smart modern team like the Houston Rockets? Dantley had a poor reputation as a winner, but wow could he shoot.

    But maybe if Dantley were around today Darryl Morey could construct a system in which Dantley's weaknesses were covered up the way Harden's weaknesses don't seem to hurt the Rockets much.

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  141. @Anon
    Proud to say my children are not sportsball fans at all.

    How did that come about?

    We haven’t had cable for years. I don’t watch sports, none of my friends watch sports either. Even when my son played baseball he never watched baseball. Basically, they’ve never been exposed to it.

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    • Replies: @Anon
    Interesting. Weren't you tempted to show him the local baseball team, or take him out to the ball game, or tell him about the team you or your grandpa rooted for, or discuss baseball lore?

    And surely they must have shown an interest in the pros when they were playing baseball?
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  142. @It's All Ball Bearings
    I have to call out Sailer on his "surprisingly ineffectual" assessment of Dr J. In the 6 game series he avgd 30.3 pts, 54% fg, 86% ft, 6.5 reb, 5 ast, 2.7 stls. The Sixers had no one to counter Walton.

    Thanks. I was more referring to how it took Dr. J. a few years to get up to his best again after the ABA shut down. He was a legendary terror in the ABA and then eventually won an MVP in the NBA, but his first seasons in the NBA were kind of a dip.

    Probably playing along side George McGinniss didn’t help. Erving wasn’t a Jordan-like give-me-the-damn-ball alpha dog. He was more of a great teammate. The post-ABA Sixers were over-stuffed with talent and it took them awhile to get sorted out who they should keep and who they should move.

    Here’s an old time basketball mavens’ question: how valuable would the offensive genius Adrian Dantley have been on a smart modern team like the Houston Rockets? Dantley had a poor reputation as a winner, but wow could he shoot.

    But maybe if Dantley were around today Darryl Morey could construct a system in which Dantley’s weaknesses were covered up the way Harden’s weaknesses don’t seem to hurt the Rockets much.

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    • Replies: @It's All Ball Bearings
    I felt bad for Dantley that the Pistons traded him for Aguirre. Had he not gotten injured in game 7 vs Celtics, I believe the Pistons would have made the finals a yr early (87). Dantley had great post-moves for a guy his height 6.5. Each team that moved him on (LAL, UTA, and DET) got better upon his departure, so I don't know if The Beard would benefit from his hypothetical presence.
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  143. gsjackson says:
    @Anon7
    Returning to the topic of whether white players will ever make a comeback, I’d point out that the culture has changed. I’ve said that watching the best black players play is more enjoyable for fans because it’s more fun to watch spontaneous creativity than rote repetition.

    Maybe some of you remember the dominant UCLA teams of the Wooden years (10 national championships in twelve years). If you were a Bruins fan who loved to see their team win, you loved it. Everyone else, not so much. Wooden was an iron-fisted disciplinarian who made players work hard for the percentage shot on offense (no three pointers then, and no dunking for lots of that era), running disciplined play after play. Worst of all, if the Bruins were up by six points with ten minutes left, they played keep-away for the remaining time (no shot clock). It was like watching a well-oiled machine. Boring, boring, boring. It’s one reason the rules were changed.

    Black merch, black cultural norms (like trash talking, frontin’, outsized egos) are all part of the show in basketball now; tickets, shirts, shoes, music, it’s big business.

    I have no affiliation with UCLA, but watching those Wooden teams was one of the biggest thrills I’ve had in sports. They were not over-regimented, ran whenever they could, had balanced scoring. It was a priority with Wooden to make the game fun for the players. Maybe you’re confusing him with Bobby Knight, who once told Krzyzewski he would break his arm if he shot.

    And they did not hold the ball. Ever. The other team held the ball against them, at least USC once did. When asked about it afterward, Wooden said he didn’t think it would happen often because “too many coaches have too much respect for the game.” Dean Smith was the iconic coach who held the ball, sometimes for an entire half, and he virtually alone caused the rule change.

    The brief no-dunk rule was put in place to slow UCLA down when they had Alcindor/Jabbar.

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    • Replies: @Anon7
    Rats, I had it backward. USC tried it on UCLA twice and almost beat them

    https://www.si.com/vault/1967/03/13/545587/stallballa-game-to-sleep-by

    Other teams also tried it. Obviously it made a big impression on me.
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  144. gsjackson says:
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    "This ought to be a lesson to people who say that baseball will never get itself out of its current rut of sabermetrics-derived Three True Outcomes play (homer, strikeout, or walk). It’s not actually all that hard to improve sports to make them a little more entertaining."

    Compared to the other major team sports, MLB, as the oldest established of the US's team sports, views itself as perfect unto itself. If it's perfect, it doesn't need to be fixed, much less recognize that long term problems exist. The Three True (or perfect) Outcomes means that there is no need to settle for less than perfect, since nothing beats the True Outcomes, which tend to decide everything about MLB strategy and how the game "ought" to be played. Period.

    It should also be noticed that MLB began its long decline in total number of fans (early/mid. '80's, with a small rebound in late '90's) and its decline among TV viewership afterward, as Sabermetrics gained the ascendency in MLB, and not before.

    In other words, prior to Sabermetrics self-appointed guarantor of how MLB strategy ought to be run, MLB tended to have greater number of fans as well as much higher share of TV ratings. Granted, there are several other factors: the newer generations tend not to care about MLB at all, video games, the internet, etc. have come along to compete even more for fans entertainment loyalties. However, in no small can the Three True Outcomes escape their responsiblity in the overall long term decline of MLB. The True Outcomes have transgressed a Cardinal Sin in America, and that is "Never appear to be boring at what you do, especially when it comes to entertainment." And that is precisely what the Outcomes have made MLB. Boring, dull, and simply not worth one's time, patience, or effort to enjoy any more.

    Suggestion: If Sabermetrics are here to stay, then perhaps there should be a compromise and allow the re-emergence of traditional stats (that have existed in some cases for over a century and a half) to be deployed in MLB strategy and given prominence as they once were for well near a century. The way it used to be done, during the Golden Age of Baseball (when it truly was the National Pastime).

    On your baseball attendance point: Huh??? From 1950 to the second decade of the 21st century average attendance increased steadily from 10,000 to over 30,000 per game.

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    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Average age of MLB fans is about 47 yrs old, most of these are whites. From 1950's to now it's still dominated by Baby Boomer Generation in the stands. Younger white fans of MLB are becoming more and more a rarity. As the Baby Boomers slowly pass away from the scene, who will replace them? Not blacks, not enough Asians. Possibly Latinos in certain select cities.

    Also keep in mind that during the '70's the traditional MLB parks built ca.1910's were torn down to give way to asymetrical mostly astroturf all purpose sports arenas that seated 50k-60k. Then with the coming of Camden Yards in 1992, most of the all purpose sports arenas were either torn down or given over to NFL franchises (many of which promptly abandoned them for newer stadiums as well). The newer MLB retro looking ballparks average about 35-43k in attendance.

    In other words the newer MLB parks hold between 15-20k fewer seats in attendance.

    The Old Yankee Stadium could at maximum capacity seat around 80k. After the mid. 70's refurbishing it held around 56k. The New Yankee Stadium, built in 2009 across the street from the Old Yankee Stadium, seats around 50k.

    If the Big Apple has drastically reduced seating for the most successful North American Sports franchise of the 20th century, that tells you that the rest of the US's MLB franchises have done the same thing. Ever since Camden Yards opened, the newer MLB parks seat fewer and fewer fans than the previous generation.

    Translation: Fewer and fewer people attend live MLB games than they did at mid. century as the parks seat fewer and fewer fans now.

    Meanwhile NCAA Football still has its premier franchises/schools with stadiums that seat upwards of 80k, in some cases some seat 100-110k.
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  145. gsjackson says:
    @JamesG
    "Young athletic white boys who might do well in basketball are going into other sports."


    Coming soon, the MLB dominated by (very ) tall white pitchers. Simple physics says longer arms = faster fast balls.

    Scouts have been proceeding on that assumption for decades, and for every hit they get like a Randy Johnson there are a thousand misses. As Tom Boswell wrote a few years ago, throughout baseball history the vast majority of highly successful pitchers have been between 5-10 and 6-2.

    Perhaps it’s kind of like golf, where you don’t see too many 6-6 low handicappers — the bigger all those moving parts are, the harder it is assemble them into a repeatable motion.

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    • Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist

    Perhaps it’s kind of like golf, where you don’t see too many 6-6 low handicappers — the bigger all those moving parts are, the harder it is assemble them into a repeatable motion.

     

    I'm 6' 5" -- tell me about it!

    But these days there are lots of MLB pitchers from 6' 2" to 6' 6".

    , @The Last Real Calvinist
    Your post about pitcher heights got me thinking: have average pitcher heights in MLB been increasing? Is this related to what seems to be the increasing emphasis on sheer velocity?

    I don't have the time or the wherewithal to answer those questions fully, so I took a quick first step. Here are pitcherlist.com's projected top 10 MLB starting pitchers going into the 2018 season, and their heights (according to MLB.com):

    1. Clayton Kershaw -- 6' 4"

    2. Max Scherzer -- 6' 3"

    3. Chris Sale -- 6' 6"

    4. Corey Kluber -- 6' 4"

    5. Noah Syndergaard -- 6' 6"

    6. Luis Severino -- 6' 2"

    7. Madison Bumgarner -- 6' 4"

    8. Stephen Strasburg -- 6' 5"

    9. Jacob de Grom -- 6' 4"

    10. Zach Greinke -- 6' 2"

    So all 10 are 6' 2" or above.

    Then I went back 50 years, and picked the top 10 pitchers from the 1968 season (i.e. 'The Year of the Pitcher'), which seems to be a nicely-symmetrical point of comparison. I picked them according to their wins above replacement.

    Those 10 pitchers and their heights are as follows:

    1. Bob Gibson -- 6' 1"

    2. Luis Tiant -- 6' 0"

    3. Denny McLain -- 6' 1" (BTW, this was the year he won 31 games)

    4. Tom Seaver -- 6' 1"

    5. Stan Bahnsen -- 6' 2"

    6. Jerry Koosman -- 6' 2"

    7. Fergie Jenkins -- 6' 5"

    8. Dean Chance -- 6' 3"

    9. Dave McNally -- 5' 11"

    10. Tommy John -- 6' 3" (Am I the only one surprised he was this tall?)

    Clearly a shorter group.

    To sum up:

    Average height of 2018 top-10 pitcher: exactly 6' 4".

    Average height of 1968 top-10 pitcher: just under 6' 2".

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  146. @Steve Sailer
    My local bowling alley was jammed at 11 pm on a Thursday night recently.

    Bowling goes in and out of fashion every decade or two. It's kind of like Tiki Bars, which, as far as I can tell, are now back in fashion for about the the 3rd or 4th time in my lifetime.

    (In contrast, as far as I can tell, racketball has only been really popular once.)

    But bowling was biggest in the postwar era after the perfection of pin-setting machines made it more economical. In 1964 bowler Don Carter signed the first ever million dollar endorsement contract. Shortly afterwards it started to go out of fashion.

    Here in North Jersey a number of bowling alleys have closed, but the ones who survived have thrived and are very busy.

    Bowling was very popular here when Mark Roth was at the height of his career. NJ sponsors bowling as a high school sport, but the NCAA doesn’t for men, which many boys don’t realize until they try to get a bowling scholarship.

    There are NCAA bowling teams for women, though, with Nebraska being the most successful. Fun Fact: their coach is Bill Straub. Kim Berke was one of his bowlers and he ended up marrying her. Their daughter Meghan is a current Nebraska bowler. If this story sounds hot to you, you haven’t seen Kim or Meghan.

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    • Replies: @Autochthon
    Bill couldn't ask for better – poor guy hit every branch on the way down, as Grandma used to say....

    Kim now manages the offices of the bowling team. It never ceases to amaze me how academia, with its constant bragging about equality for all, fairness, and so on is easily the most nepotistic enterprise going. Shtupping your student athlete and now ready to get her on the payroll? No problem! Have a no talent hack of a spouse you demand be employed with a sinecure before you will consider joining our faculty? No problem! Want your kids to get preferential treatment for admissions because you are an alumnus, or free tuition because you are a professor? No problem!

    These places all seem to be run by Alf....

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  147. Anon[350] • Disclaimer says:
    @Sean
    Will SJ Gould's dwarf baseball pros of yesteryear and their bygone era stats come back?Like US whites ceasing to try heavyweight be ght boxers it is due to the declining evidence of culture. At one time there were even Jewish world champion boxers like Benny Leonard. But boxing is far more competitive now and the genetic component of success and a willingness to take drugs has become the key to pro sports success. Taking growth hormone is common among even rappers. Anyway, yes there probably are some whites tall, explosively powerful and agile enough to be star basketball players if they went into that, but they would face skepticism from managers and it would not be much fun for them; as they know, they would not be protected.

    Whites could make a relative comeback if PEDs are eliminated from basketball.

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  148. Anon7 says:
    @gsjackson
    I have no affiliation with UCLA, but watching those Wooden teams was one of the biggest thrills I've had in sports. They were not over-regimented, ran whenever they could, had balanced scoring. It was a priority with Wooden to make the game fun for the players. Maybe you're confusing him with Bobby Knight, who once told Krzyzewski he would break his arm if he shot.

    And they did not hold the ball. Ever. The other team held the ball against them, at least USC once did. When asked about it afterward, Wooden said he didn't think it would happen often because "too many coaches have too much respect for the game." Dean Smith was the iconic coach who held the ball, sometimes for an entire half, and he virtually alone caused the rule change.

    The brief no-dunk rule was put in place to slow UCLA down when they had Alcindor/Jabbar.

    Rats, I had it backward. USC tried it on UCLA twice and almost beat them

    https://www.si.com/vault/1967/03/13/545587/stallballa-game-to-sleep-by

    Other teams also tried it. Obviously it made a big impression on me.

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    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    I think USC beat UCLA like 46-44 or so around 1970. Contra Malcolm Gladwell, the higher the score the more likely the more talented team is to win.
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  149. @gsjackson
    I doubt that lacrosse is taking many significantly promising prospects from baseball. Parents in that suburban white demographic tend to know where the money is, and it isn't in lacrosse. These days any kid who shows good potential in baseball is put on a traveling select team at about age 8, and coached and encouraged to a fare thee well. If the baseball aptitude doesn't show by 10 or so, then they're switched to lacrosse or the highly egalitarian sport of soccer (just run around and have your foot make contact with the ball when it comes your way, and you won't suffer any of the embarrassing moments baseball specializes in).

    the highly egalitarian sport of soccer (just run around and have your foot make contact with the ball when it comes your way, and you won’t suffer any of the embarrassing moments baseball specializes in

    Pro soccer players indeed just stand there, kicking it around. No one ever notices their mistakes. I’m sure that’s not what you meant but were just referring to school teams, etc.

    As for the blog question, who cares? NBA/NFL are to a good extent hostile to the interests of most whites (not just the MAGA droolers). Whites should play and/or support baseball, soccer, and other sports. There’s no interest in engaging with NBA/NFL/etc; it’s not like, say, refusing to read & comment on lib blogs.

    P.S. Well before Kap etc., Coulter, Medved, etc. hyped the NFL during the last WorldCup. Use that to undercut them to their fans.

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    • Replies: @gsjackson
    Yes, I was referring to youth soccer, where little Johnny needn't suffer the ignominy of getting hit in the head by a fly ball or missing the ball by a foot at the plate. There might be a brief moment of embarrassment if he kicks at the ball and misses, but the game moves along so fast that it's scarcely noticed, and there's no time to stew about it.
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  150. Marty T says:
    @Brutusale
    Like lacrosse is taking a lot of kids who'd be playing baseball, physically-imposing white kids are looking to be the next Gronk or JJ Watt instead of playing hoops.

    As more middle class white parents shy away from football, I wonder if basketball will see a bit of a comeback with white kids, especially as the game is a lot less thuggish than it used to be (at least at the pro level).

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  151. @Steve Sailer
    Thanks. I was more referring to how it took Dr. J. a few years to get up to his best again after the ABA shut down. He was a legendary terror in the ABA and then eventually won an MVP in the NBA, but his first seasons in the NBA were kind of a dip.

    Probably playing along side George McGinniss didn't help. Erving wasn't a Jordan-like give-me-the-damn-ball alpha dog. He was more of a great teammate. The post-ABA Sixers were over-stuffed with talent and it took them awhile to get sorted out who they should keep and who they should move.

    Here's an old time basketball mavens' question: how valuable would the offensive genius Adrian Dantley have been on a smart modern team like the Houston Rockets? Dantley had a poor reputation as a winner, but wow could he shoot.

    But maybe if Dantley were around today Darryl Morey could construct a system in which Dantley's weaknesses were covered up the way Harden's weaknesses don't seem to hurt the Rockets much.

    I felt bad for Dantley that the Pistons traded him for Aguirre. Had he not gotten injured in game 7 vs Celtics, I believe the Pistons would have made the finals a yr early (87). Dantley had great post-moves for a guy his height 6.5. Each team that moved him on (LAL, UTA, and DET) got better upon his departure, so I don’t know if The Beard would benefit from his hypothetical presence.

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  152. Anon[350] • Disclaimer says:
    @The preferred nomenclature is...
    We haven't had cable for years. I don't watch sports, none of my friends watch sports either. Even when my son played baseball he never watched baseball. Basically, they've never been exposed to it.

    Interesting. Weren’t you tempted to show him the local baseball team, or take him out to the ball game, or tell him about the team you or your grandpa rooted for, or discuss baseball lore?

    And surely they must have shown an interest in the pros when they were playing baseball?

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  153. Marty T says:
    @Pat Boyle
    I was on my college basketball team. I did like a white man.

    Black men get on a team by jumping, shooting, dribbling and stuff like that. I couldn't really do any of those things so I had to find another way. I did. I created my college basketball program. I was 6'4" (tall for a civilian) and crazy about basketball. Alas I had none of the requisite athletic skills.

    I was at George Mason. But this wasn't the George Mason with all the Economics Nobel Prize winners or the recent top black basketball team. This was the spin off of the University of Virginia in its first days. This was not at the big new modern campus in Fairfax. It was at an old abandoned elementary school at Bailey's Cross Roads behind the fire house. There were only about two hundred and fifty students at the beginning of the year and one hundred and fifty in the Spring semester.

    There was no glee club, debate team, school newspaper or basketball team. So I had founded all of those activities. I was the captain of the debate team and the editor of the paper but only the back up center of on the basketball team. I was a really terrible player. The starting center was the President of the Student Assembly. I was the Vice President. Tall guys rule.

    The whole team was white probably because the whole school was white. We had no blacks and we had no wins. But I got to forever brag that I made my college basketball team. So there.

    So you’re saying there’s another college called George Mason that plays bball in an abandoned elementary school??

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  154. Anonymous[350] • Disclaimer says:
    @Hibernian
    You are the first person I was ever aware of in my entire life to allege that black people have poor hand eye coordination.

    Blacks have good body coordination, including coordinating their arms and legs with their body.

    They are less good–relative to Whites and Asians–at the kind of hand-eye coordination involved in manipulating props (balls, raquets, other marksmanship). It may be that fast -twitch muscles are a detriment in this area.

    It’s one reason Tiger Woods is part Caucasian and Asian, and Steph Curry and Klay Thompson are at least half Caucasian if not more. And why so many top quarterbacks and pitchers are White.

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    • Agree: Autochthon
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  155. Anonymous[350] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous Jew
    Whites, on average, have more slow-twitch muscles, higher lung capacities, and shorter arms and legs. I'm not sure about motor control as blacks seem to do fine in baseball.

    Blacks never had to leave the ancestral human evolutionary homeland, and were thus not compromised by the ice age like Whites and Asians (shorter limbs, less dense bones, more and different fat distribution, mitochondria that creates more heat and less energy).

    Problem with comparing races in sports in that you need everyone playing the same sport in the same numbers. Sometimes this is easy. Take soccer and running. The Kenyans suck at the former, despite it being their mos popular sport, but dominate at distance running (but not sprinting). There's no mystery about who're the best runners because everyone does it. On the other hand, sometimes comparisons are hard, like in cycling. I suspect Amerindians could excel at cycling, but there aren't enough of them pursuing it. (Nairo Quintana got second in the Tour de France twice and won the Tour of Italy. That's pretty impressive considering the dearth of Amerindians in the sport).

    Blacks have:
    1) a flatter height bell curve despite being roughly the same height as Whites (see CDC data)
    2) more fast-twitch muscles (at the expense of slow twitch muscles; West Africans/Bantu only)
    3) longer limbs (arm length can be critical in basketball)
    4) low IQ can be a detriment, but Blacks are good at improvisational decision making (see Jazz) which could be helpful in basketball.

    I don't see Whites coming back in basketball. We'll always have a handful of great White players, and it won't be as bad as, say, distance running, but Whites will never come back in the same numbers.

    Whites, on average, have more slow-twitch muscles, higher lung capacities, and shorter arms and legs. I’m not sure about motor control as blacks seem to do fine in baseball.

    Blacks relatively underperform at baseball. Witness, for example, the composition of the ranks of pitchers. But also other MLB positions. Many blacks who do excel have Caucasian or Asian (Hispanic, Amerindian) ancestry. It may be that a high concentration of fast-twitch fibers is detrimental to fine motor control. One can imagine it tending toward a certain jerkiness, or lack of control.

    See also Tiger Woods, Steph Curry, Klay Thompson, or quarterbacks.

    How did the ice age contribute to lower bone density?

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    • Replies: @Kyle
    It didn't. Lower bone density is obviously a result of domestication.
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  156. pyrrhus says:
    @MikeatMikedotMike
    "The NBA had another downturn in the late 1990s-early 2000s when the generation of black kids who had grown up during the Crack Years got to the pros and couldn’t make free throws. "

    These black kids also all grew up listening to NWA and Tupac, which certainly contributed to the thug life behavior, and their poor attitude regarding (NBA[white]) authority. Jewish sportswriters also absolutely loved Allen Iverson, which emboldened more players to act like goons.

    "The 2004 Olympic Dream Team losing three games in the Olympics was particularly symbolic of how bad black American basketball had gotten after the glory days of the Jordan Era."

    That was the most embarrassing Olympic team of any kind ever assembled for the USA, and don't forget that they lost to a bunch of mostly white European teams.

    "But the NBA made some rule changes to make the game less violent..."

    All it took was Latrell Spreewell nearly choking his coach to death in practice and Ron Artest (aka Meta-World Peace) starting a riot in the stands during a game. The fact that the NBA continued to let either of those two animals play in the NBA suggests they weren't entirely serious about eliminating violence.

    "...imposed a dress code against gangsta clothes (players constructively responded by dressing like nerd Steve Urkel if he were rich and cool)..."

    Blacks like to look good; all it took was a little white cultural appropriation for them to manage it.

    "The quality of the game leapt upward and interesting new trends emerged."

    Debatable - They started allowing zone defense, but the big interesting new trend is they pretty much stop penalizing traveling:
    https://youtu.be/rjM4z-M7gcA

    Anyway - NBA basketball is unwatchable anymore and has been for 20 years. I'll take baseball's slow grinding pace instead. It's better by every measure.

    Indeed, if the NBA ever starts enforcing the rules of basketball, i.e. traveling, whites will regain some degree of prominence. Not likely to happen…

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  157. @Anon7
    Rats, I had it backward. USC tried it on UCLA twice and almost beat them

    https://www.si.com/vault/1967/03/13/545587/stallballa-game-to-sleep-by

    Other teams also tried it. Obviously it made a big impression on me.

    I think USC beat UCLA like 46-44 or so around 1970. Contra Malcolm Gladwell, the higher the score the more likely the more talented team is to win.

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    • Replies: @ScarletNumber
    It was the regular season ender on Saturday, March 8, 1969. That season everyone in the Pac 8 played their rival in a home-and-home the final weekend of the season. UCLA won 61-55 the night before at the Sports Arena.

    The following year the same happened in reverse, with USC winning on Friday night 87-86.
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  158. gsjackson says:
    @24AheadDotCom
    the highly egalitarian sport of soccer (just run around and have your foot make contact with the ball when it comes your way, and you won’t suffer any of the embarrassing moments baseball specializes in

    Pro soccer players indeed just stand there, kicking it around. No one ever notices their mistakes. I'm sure that's not what you meant but were just referring to school teams, etc.

    As for the blog question, who cares? NBA/NFL are to a good extent hostile to the interests of most whites (not just the MAGA droolers). Whites should play and/or support baseball, soccer, and other sports. There's no interest in engaging with NBA/NFL/etc; it's not like, say, refusing to read & comment on lib blogs.

    P.S. Well before Kap etc., Coulter, Medved, etc. hyped the NFL during the last WorldCup. Use that to undercut them to their fans.

    Yes, I was referring to youth soccer, where little Johnny needn’t suffer the ignominy of getting hit in the head by a fly ball or missing the ball by a foot at the plate. There might be a brief moment of embarrassment if he kicks at the ball and misses, but the game moves along so fast that it’s scarcely noticed, and there’s no time to stew about it.

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    • Replies: @Jim Don Bob
    I coached a coed 1st grade soccer team years ago, and I told the kids, "If you see the ball near the goal, kick it in". We won one game 3-1 and we scored all the goals. Kevin remembered my advice and kicked the ball in the other teams' goal. He was thrilled.
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  159. Anon[274] • Disclaimer says:
    @Phil
    You know something you don't hear about very often?

    Guys who don't talk to reporters.

    I feel like when I was growing up in the late 80s to early 90s you heard about a lot of guys who wouldn't talk to reporters.

    I guess leagues have fined that out of existence?

    I guess a few years ago Marshawn Lynch had to be fined a few times in order to fulfill his league mandated media availability requirements, and then had some notable examples of saying the bare minimum when he did show up.

    Seems like that's much more uncommon than it used to be.

    After the wild, recreational drug-fueled 70s and 80s with their bitter labor disputes; MLB made a conscious effort to weed out personalities which were highly neurotic, disagreeable, anti-social and so on…

    Entering the 90s, you had players like Canseco who felt entitled to say some really obscene things to children in the stands. You had alleged child molester Mel Hall bullying young, introspective and sensitive Bernie Williams to the point of tears. You had Vince Coleman throwing bleach at fans; David Cone facing allegations of masturbating (and cocaine use) in the Mets bullpen in front of fans. You had Bobby Bonilla willing to show reporters “the Bronx” and Kevin Elster recounting his orgy-filled nights with any reporter in earshot…rape accusations aplenty…especially for those wild Mets teams.

    And I don’t think the story has been written yet as to how badly recreational drug use became in Major League Baseball and what effects it had on the culture. It went from a sport of all american alcohol abuse and greenies to speedballs sometime in the early 70s. I believe one the many reasons the MLB turned it’s head on steroids and performance enhancers is because the culture changed from a destructive hedonism to a more constructive one (for them). A guy obsessed with his physique may still be snorting cocaine but he’s probably not doing copious amounts after every game. If he dies at 50,60-something after his playing days; well, that’s an unfortunate hazard- at least the MLB isn’t running the risk of one of their star players turning up dead in the middle of a road series at 20 or 30. Look at how quickly Jose Fernandez was memory-holed by the sport once his toxicology report came back with cocaine and alcohol in his system. Dead at 24- a nightmare for baseball.

    [MORE]

    Doc Ellis, the star pitcher who cleaned his life up explained it well: when he started in the late sixties, he was a (self-described) angry young black man with alcohol problems. But the team leader, Roberto Clemente, didn’t allow other substances into his Pirates clubhouse. Once Clemente died tragically in ’70 and the old guard retired, it became an absolute free-for-all among many teams, including his own. Ellis talked about being uncertain about going to the Yankees until he was assured by someone (unnamed, as Ellis was no rat) on the team that they were “cool” about it. He said that those late 70s Yankees teams and New York were awash in every substance imaginable. That he himself, who couldn’t simply be a dabbler like some guys, couldn’t remember a single thing about his years in New York. Additionally, and bear in mind I cannot substantiate this bit of gossip, so take it with a grain of salt but; I’ve heard that Jackson’s “stirring” of the Yankee clubhouse went beyond him merely being a loudmouth showboat. While no saint, he was against the rampant abuses, and expressive about it- which rankled teammates.

    Jackson of course went on to make anti-drug PSAs and is one of the most vocal hall of famers about keeping steroid/HGH users out of Cooperstown.

    So baseball definitely decided to breed better behavior by making personnel decisions around certain characteristics before a player even sniffs a major league roster. Over the last two decades, it’s had an effect. Instead of saying so directly, they have filled the sport (and sports reporting) with eliding- jargon about searching for guys with “leadership qualities”, “intangibles” and long discussions about “good clubhouse guys” and “clubhouse chemistry” discussions which always talk around the issues.

    It has also, for the owners, created a union of more compliant and agreeable individuals who’ve been losing ground (if not in goodies) in the seemingly perennial power games with the owners. Players definitely have more perks and bigger salaries than any in the past could’ve imagined but look at how willingly almost every player on a roster has become to jump through every hoop the owner asks of them- go the extra mile for fans, sit for every tv/newspaper interview without complaint, do the commercial, meet with sick kids….they are compensated, sure, but probably not to the extent the brand advertisement should probably pay. The guys in the 80s wouldn’t have lifted a finger, let alone participate in the round-the-clock hustle the modern player does.

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    • Replies: @ScarletNumber
    Vince Coleman threw a lit firecracker at fans and Bret Saberhagen shot a reporter with a Super Soaker filled with bleach.

    There is nothing alleged about Mel Hall, since he is currently doing time for statutory rape. His proclivities in that arena weren't known at the time, so you might be misremembering him for his teammate Luis Polonia, who was found guilty of having sex with a 15 year old in 1989. The Yankees were so troubled by this that they brought him back to play for them on two separate occasions, and played in the majors until 2000.
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  160. @gsjackson
    Scouts have been proceeding on that assumption for decades, and for every hit they get like a Randy Johnson there are a thousand misses. As Tom Boswell wrote a few years ago, throughout baseball history the vast majority of highly successful pitchers have been between 5-10 and 6-2.

    Perhaps it's kind of like golf, where you don't see too many 6-6 low handicappers -- the bigger all those moving parts are, the harder it is assemble them into a repeatable motion.

    Perhaps it’s kind of like golf, where you don’t see too many 6-6 low handicappers — the bigger all those moving parts are, the harder it is assemble them into a repeatable motion.

    I’m 6′ 5″ — tell me about it!

    But these days there are lots of MLB pitchers from 6′ 2″ to 6′ 6″.

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    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    My impression is that professional golfers are probably around, say, the 75th percentile in height on average.
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  161. @International Jew
    About what fraction of white NBA players now are American-born?

    I just went through all of the season-ending NBA rosters. Including players on two-way contracts, there were 95 white players on NBA rosters out of 510 roster slots (15 regular slots, 2 two-way slots). This number may not be quite accurate because I’m counting as white one Egyptian (Abdel Nader) and a couple of Latin Americans I’m not totally sure about (J.J. Barea, a Puerto Rican, and Raul Neto, a Brazilian). Also, I’m omitting players who have confirmed non-white ancestry, with notable examples being the Lopez twins (Afro-Cuban on father’s side), Kyle Kuzma (at least one African-American parent), and Steven Adams (New Zealander with white English father and Tongan mother).

    With those caveats in mind, here’s the breakdown:

    41 were born in the US. This count, however, includes two US-born players who represent European national teams. Kosta Koufos has represented Greece, but he was born and raised in Ohio and played one season at Ohio State; he was a Greek citizen by birth because his parents were Greek immigrants. The other is Domantas Sabonis (Lithuanian born in Portland, OR), whom I mentioned earlier in this thread. Unlike Koufos, he developed mainly in Europe, only returning to the States to play two seasons at Gonzaga.

    One player, T. J. Leaf, was born in Israel to American parents (his dad was playing pro ball in Israel at the time) and grew up in the San Diego area. He has represented Israel at under-18 level.

    For completeness’ sake, there were anywhere from 44 to 47 Europeans (defined as countries within FIBA’s European zone), depending on how you count Koufos, Leaf, and Sabonis. As for other nationalities… Latin Americans: Barea, Neto, and Manu Ginóbili. Aussies: Aron Baynes (born in NZ, but raised in Australia), Matthew Dellavedova, and Joe Ingles. Canadians: Kelly Olynyk and Nik Stauskas. North African: Nader.

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    • Replies: @ScarletNumber
    Sabonis' father played in the NBA as well.
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  162. Anonymous[350] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous Jew
    Whites, on average, have more slow-twitch muscles, higher lung capacities, and shorter arms and legs. I'm not sure about motor control as blacks seem to do fine in baseball.

    Blacks never had to leave the ancestral human evolutionary homeland, and were thus not compromised by the ice age like Whites and Asians (shorter limbs, less dense bones, more and different fat distribution, mitochondria that creates more heat and less energy).

    Problem with comparing races in sports in that you need everyone playing the same sport in the same numbers. Sometimes this is easy. Take soccer and running. The Kenyans suck at the former, despite it being their mos popular sport, but dominate at distance running (but not sprinting). There's no mystery about who're the best runners because everyone does it. On the other hand, sometimes comparisons are hard, like in cycling. I suspect Amerindians could excel at cycling, but there aren't enough of them pursuing it. (Nairo Quintana got second in the Tour de France twice and won the Tour of Italy. That's pretty impressive considering the dearth of Amerindians in the sport).

    Blacks have:
    1) a flatter height bell curve despite being roughly the same height as Whites (see CDC data)
    2) more fast-twitch muscles (at the expense of slow twitch muscles; West Africans/Bantu only)
    3) longer limbs (arm length can be critical in basketball)
    4) low IQ can be a detriment, but Blacks are good at improvisational decision making (see Jazz) which could be helpful in basketball.

    I don't see Whites coming back in basketball. We'll always have a handful of great White players, and it won't be as bad as, say, distance running, but Whites will never come back in the same numbers.

    Another factor contributing to the better fine motor control seen in Caucasians and Asians versus blacks is limb length. Caucasians and Asians have shorter limbs (wingspan, for example).

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  163. “This ought to be a lesson to people who say that baseball will never get itself out of its current rut of sabermetrics-derived Three True Outcomes play (homer, strikeout, or walk).”

    Ironically, the Three True Outcomes directly led to PED inflated statistics of the ’90′s and most of the ’00′s. After all, those that would benefit the most from HR’s & BB’s (McGwire, Sosa, Bonds, etc) and K’s (Clemens), were also beneficiaries of PEDS. But from the official moneyball/sabermetric classes, there were simply crickets chirping. “Steroids? What steroids? Never heard of them.”

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  164. @gsjackson
    On your baseball attendance point: Huh??? From 1950 to the second decade of the 21st century average attendance increased steadily from 10,000 to over 30,000 per game.

    Average age of MLB fans is about 47 yrs old, most of these are whites. From 1950′s to now it’s still dominated by Baby Boomer Generation in the stands. Younger white fans of MLB are becoming more and more a rarity. As the Baby Boomers slowly pass away from the scene, who will replace them? Not blacks, not enough Asians. Possibly Latinos in certain select cities.

    Also keep in mind that during the ’70′s the traditional MLB parks built ca.1910′s were torn down to give way to asymetrical mostly astroturf all purpose sports arenas that seated 50k-60k. Then with the coming of Camden Yards in 1992, most of the all purpose sports arenas were either torn down or given over to NFL franchises (many of which promptly abandoned them for newer stadiums as well). The newer MLB retro looking ballparks average about 35-43k in attendance.

    In other words the newer MLB parks hold between 15-20k fewer seats in attendance.

    The Old Yankee Stadium could at maximum capacity seat around 80k. After the mid. 70′s refurbishing it held around 56k. The New Yankee Stadium, built in 2009 across the street from the Old Yankee Stadium, seats around 50k.

    If the Big Apple has drastically reduced seating for the most successful North American Sports franchise of the 20th century, that tells you that the rest of the US’s MLB franchises have done the same thing. Ever since Camden Yards opened, the newer MLB parks seat fewer and fewer fans than the previous generation.

    Translation: Fewer and fewer people attend live MLB games than they did at mid. century as the parks seat fewer and fewer fans now.

    Meanwhile NCAA Football still has its premier franchises/schools with stadiums that seat upwards of 80k, in some cases some seat 100-110k.

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    • Replies: @gsjackson
    "Translation: Fewer and fewer people attend live MLB games than they did at mid-century as the parks seat fewer and fewer fans now."

    I'm sort of speechless at this non sequitur. They do keep attendance records, you know, and while there may be more high rollers now who own box seats and don't come to all the games, attendance from mid-century to now has gone up more than 200 percent. You could look it up.

    The idea with the smaller retro parks, beyond aesthetic appeal (and in that realm they succeeded wildly in surpassing the old cookie-cutter multi-purpose parks, in my opinion), was to get a more intimate setting, fewer bad seats, more boxes -- so that they could sell these seats for a lot more money, which explains the high average age of fans, at least those in the ballpark.

    This dirge for baseball has been played at least since the mid-60s, when football supplanted it as the national pastime. The lyrics never change, but attendance just keeps going up and up, in the minors and college as well as MLB.
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  165. @gsjackson
    Scouts have been proceeding on that assumption for decades, and for every hit they get like a Randy Johnson there are a thousand misses. As Tom Boswell wrote a few years ago, throughout baseball history the vast majority of highly successful pitchers have been between 5-10 and 6-2.

    Perhaps it's kind of like golf, where you don't see too many 6-6 low handicappers -- the bigger all those moving parts are, the harder it is assemble them into a repeatable motion.

    Your post about pitcher heights got me thinking: have average pitcher heights in MLB been increasing? Is this related to what seems to be the increasing emphasis on sheer velocity?

    I don’t have the time or the wherewithal to answer those questions fully, so I took a quick first step. Here are pitcherlist.com’s projected top 10 MLB starting pitchers going into the 2018 season, and their heights (according to MLB.com):

    1. Clayton Kershaw — 6′ 4″

    2. Max Scherzer — 6′ 3″

    3. Chris Sale — 6′ 6″

    4. Corey Kluber — 6′ 4″

    5. Noah Syndergaard — 6′ 6″

    6. Luis Severino — 6′ 2″

    7. Madison Bumgarner — 6′ 4″

    8. Stephen Strasburg — 6′ 5″

    9. Jacob de Grom — 6′ 4″

    10. Zach Greinke — 6′ 2″

    So all 10 are 6′ 2″ or above.

    Then I went back 50 years, and picked the top 10 pitchers from the 1968 season (i.e. ‘The Year of the Pitcher’), which seems to be a nicely-symmetrical point of comparison. I picked them according to their wins above replacement.

    Those 10 pitchers and their heights are as follows:

    1. Bob Gibson — 6′ 1″

    2. Luis Tiant — 6′ 0″

    3. Denny McLain — 6′ 1″ (BTW, this was the year he won 31 games)

    4. Tom Seaver — 6′ 1″

    5. Stan Bahnsen — 6′ 2″

    6. Jerry Koosman — 6′ 2″

    7. Fergie Jenkins — 6′ 5″

    8. Dean Chance — 6′ 3″

    9. Dave McNally — 5′ 11″

    10. Tommy John — 6′ 3″ (Am I the only one surprised he was this tall?)

    Clearly a shorter group.

    To sum up:

    Average height of 2018 top-10 pitcher: exactly 6′ 4″.

    Average height of 1968 top-10 pitcher: just under 6′ 2″.

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    • Replies: @Anon
    Technology and experience (like post-Randy Johnson) have made teams better at fixing mechanical issues of really tall pitchers, allowing them to cultivate them- at least as blow it out, one/two inning relievers.

    Taller pitchers have more arm troubles/location isssues when they are younger but prove more durable pitching at faster speeds than smaller pitchers. If you're team has a smaller pitcher, a good one, chances are that you won't want him around after he turns 30..

    But taller men have always been selected to be pitchers. And the real divide for height benefits are between starters who are taller than 6'1" and those who are shorter than that.
    , @gsjackson
    True, and Boswell wrote about the 5-10 to 6-2 pitcher around the time Kershaw was beginning his dominance. I guess to some extent, it's a function of scouts always doubling down on the conventional wisdom and drafting almost exclusively now tall pitchers with high velocity, and they're the ones who get a shot. As in any profession, there's a lot of butt covering going on in baseball talent evaluation, and if you've got your butt covered with conventionally accepted numbers like height and mph, then when the prospect doesn't work out you can still say he had the measurables. Same thing no doubt in football and basketball.

    Count me as shocked Tommy John was that tall, and two inches taller than Bob Gibson. That can't be right about Gibson, can it? He was a basketball player at Creighton, was he a guard?

    And hey, I'm here to testify you can be 5-8 and still not find a repeatable golf swing.
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  166. Anon[274] • Disclaimer says:
    @Steve Sailer
    When a great batter no longer has the bat speed to hit a major league fastball, what usually goes first: his reaction time to start his swing in time or his musculature to swing his bat fast enough?

    For most players, it’s definitely musculature- the loss of endurance and stamina for long seasons while dealing with nagging, persistent baseball injuries.

    Reaction time peaks at 23 to 25- so it’s technically in decline for most player’s whole careers and the better hitters who stick around to get at bats at 30,32,34 develop a series of skills and habits to replace raw reactions anyway. So from what I’ve read, older players show essentially no change to higher velocity pitching than to lower velocity pitching until around the age of 40. And that seems to be the wall for the non-steroid elite.

    Nor is there any correlation that older players use the experience and skills they learn to read a pitch before it’s thrown by starting their swings early to catch up with high velocity pitches. If that were the case, there would be evidence that pitchers who are more adept at changing speeds would do particularly better than normal against older hitters and that is not the case. And finally, if it were the case, major league pitchers would exploit it. But the amount of fastballs thrown to batters on an age curve basically remains around league average…basically, once a rookie can show that he can hit a major league fastball his first time through the league, he is pitched to like a regular major leaguer for the rest of his career.

    When it is reaction times of 40 year olds like Ichiro or a non-steroid final season of Alex Rodriguez [and he was definitely off steroids for that last season considering how scrutinized he was and how chubby and slow he became], it can be absolutely brutal and noticeable to the average fan. I remember watching A-Rod against Tampa Bay early in the 2016 season and it was obvious to a fan just watching the game that A-Rod was 1)guessing at pitches 2)starting his swing so noticeably early to compensate. And for that series, and maybe for a week (top) afterward, it worked for him. But that’s all it took for the league to catch on and he was more than toast.

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    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Golfers, who don't need quick reflexes, fall off in swing speed, but it seems to be more in mid 40s than late 30s:

    https://www.golfdigest.com/story/two-nerdy-charts-that-explain-why-phil-mickelsons-game-has-aged-so-well

    Phil Mickelson's swing speed dropped from 122 mph in 2007 to 114 mph in 2017, back up to 115 mph this year when he won a tournament.

    So my guess would be that reaction times compound the swing speed decline problem.

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  167. Anon[274] • Disclaimer says:

    Mantle would’ve been an interesting nature/nuture & european/african case if he could’ve stayed on beyond 36 and given us data for Mantle at 40. Mantle’s rise and decline lines up so well with expected aging curves of caucasoid players that despite his storied injuries and alcohol abuse, I’m not sure how much of a special role they played in his career (as opposed to his life) outside of maybe halting any chance to hit 700 home runs. First his legs go, then he loses the ability to swiftly bounce back from injuries and his bat slows down, until we last see him living off of old player skills. And despite the narrative of the fallen idol and the obsession over his dropping batting average- old Mantle in 1967 was still a top ten hitter in the American League, and twice as valuable offensively as the league average player and really not that far from Mays. He just wasn’t in the same league as Mays defensively/speed-wise after 33.

    [MORE]

    Baseball Reference ranks the top 6 center fielders by their system of WAR like this:

    1)Willie Mays
    2) Ty Cobb
    3)Tris Speaker
    4) Mickey Mantle
    5) Ken Griffey Jr.
    6) Joe DiMaggio

    (with Mike Trout currently at 16 and climbing)

    The drop off between Mantle and Griffey for career WAR is about 17 points. The gap between Speaker and Mantle is about 24 points and then Cobb and Mays are in the 150s over all.

    Putting aside how long ago Cobb and Speaker played and the questionable compatibility of the old deadballers to the post-WWII crowd, having Mays on your team is worth almost a whole season of wins compared to a replacement player. Whereas Mantle would be the equivalent of an all-time great team (at 110) and Griffey would bring you the equivalent a perennial wild-card contender in today’s game.

    But when it comes to offense, I think Mantle outpaces them all- perhaps the most concise number of his dominance listed being his 172 OPS+. Mays slots 155 for his career and at 160 if we only take him in the same 18 year period that Mantle played.

    The most comparable player and the one who is currently beating him at 174+, is the phenomenal Mike Trout. Now Trout is still in his prime at 26 and so his numbers don’t have any decline yet. But I wouldn’t be surprised if he follows the old man Mantle trajectory, this time without the self-abuse.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Mickey Mantle's last season in 1968 at age 36 sounds pretty bad: .237 with 18 HRs and 54 RBIs, but that was 1968 in Yankee Stadium. And he had 106 walks and grounded into only 9 double plays in 144 games.

    His OPS+ was still 143, or 1.43 better than league average, which is a pretty solid All Star.

    , @The Last Real Calvinist
    There are signs that Trout is still heading upward towards his peak. He had a string of seasons in his early 20s with OPSs in the 900s.

    But in his injury-shortened 2017 and so far this year he's added over 100 points to his OPS. His numbers at this stage really are Mantle-esque.
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  168. @Anon
    For most players, it's definitely musculature- the loss of endurance and stamina for long seasons while dealing with nagging, persistent baseball injuries.

    Reaction time peaks at 23 to 25- so it's technically in decline for most player's whole careers and the better hitters who stick around to get at bats at 30,32,34 develop a series of skills and habits to replace raw reactions anyway. So from what I've read, older players show essentially no change to higher velocity pitching than to lower velocity pitching until around the age of 40. And that seems to be the wall for the non-steroid elite.

    Nor is there any correlation that older players use the experience and skills they learn to read a pitch before it's thrown by starting their swings early to catch up with high velocity pitches. If that were the case, there would be evidence that pitchers who are more adept at changing speeds would do particularly better than normal against older hitters and that is not the case. And finally, if it were the case, major league pitchers would exploit it. But the amount of fastballs thrown to batters on an age curve basically remains around league average...basically, once a rookie can show that he can hit a major league fastball his first time through the league, he is pitched to like a regular major leaguer for the rest of his career.

    When it is reaction times of 40 year olds like Ichiro or a non-steroid final season of Alex Rodriguez [and he was definitely off steroids for that last season considering how scrutinized he was and how chubby and slow he became], it can be absolutely brutal and noticeable to the average fan. I remember watching A-Rod against Tampa Bay early in the 2016 season and it was obvious to a fan just watching the game that A-Rod was 1)guessing at pitches 2)starting his swing so noticeably early to compensate. And for that series, and maybe for a week (top) afterward, it worked for him. But that's all it took for the league to catch on and he was more than toast.

    Golfers, who don’t need quick reflexes, fall off in swing speed, but it seems to be more in mid 40s than late 30s:

    https://www.golfdigest.com/story/two-nerdy-charts-that-explain-why-phil-mickelsons-game-has-aged-so-well

    Phil Mickelson’s swing speed dropped from 122 mph in 2007 to 114 mph in 2017, back up to 115 mph this year when he won a tournament.

    So my guess would be that reaction times compound the swing speed decline problem.

    Read More
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  169. Anon[274] • Disclaimer says:
    @The Last Real Calvinist
    Your post about pitcher heights got me thinking: have average pitcher heights in MLB been increasing? Is this related to what seems to be the increasing emphasis on sheer velocity?

    I don't have the time or the wherewithal to answer those questions fully, so I took a quick first step. Here are pitcherlist.com's projected top 10 MLB starting pitchers going into the 2018 season, and their heights (according to MLB.com):

    1. Clayton Kershaw -- 6' 4"

    2. Max Scherzer -- 6' 3"

    3. Chris Sale -- 6' 6"

    4. Corey Kluber -- 6' 4"

    5. Noah Syndergaard -- 6' 6"

    6. Luis Severino -- 6' 2"

    7. Madison Bumgarner -- 6' 4"

    8. Stephen Strasburg -- 6' 5"

    9. Jacob de Grom -- 6' 4"

    10. Zach Greinke -- 6' 2"

    So all 10 are 6' 2" or above.

    Then I went back 50 years, and picked the top 10 pitchers from the 1968 season (i.e. 'The Year of the Pitcher'), which seems to be a nicely-symmetrical point of comparison. I picked them according to their wins above replacement.

    Those 10 pitchers and their heights are as follows:

    1. Bob Gibson -- 6' 1"

    2. Luis Tiant -- 6' 0"

    3. Denny McLain -- 6' 1" (BTW, this was the year he won 31 games)

    4. Tom Seaver -- 6' 1"

    5. Stan Bahnsen -- 6' 2"

    6. Jerry Koosman -- 6' 2"

    7. Fergie Jenkins -- 6' 5"

    8. Dean Chance -- 6' 3"

    9. Dave McNally -- 5' 11"

    10. Tommy John -- 6' 3" (Am I the only one surprised he was this tall?)

    Clearly a shorter group.

    To sum up:

    Average height of 2018 top-10 pitcher: exactly 6' 4".

    Average height of 1968 top-10 pitcher: just under 6' 2".

    Technology and experience (like post-Randy Johnson) have made teams better at fixing mechanical issues of really tall pitchers, allowing them to cultivate them- at least as blow it out, one/two inning relievers.

    Taller pitchers have more arm troubles/location isssues when they are younger but prove more durable pitching at faster speeds than smaller pitchers. If you’re team has a smaller pitcher, a good one, chances are that you won’t want him around after he turns 30..

    But taller men have always been selected to be pitchers. And the real divide for height benefits are between starters who are taller than 6’1″ and those who are shorter than that.

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  170. @Anon
    Mantle would've been an interesting nature/nuture & european/african case if he could've stayed on beyond 36 and given us data for Mantle at 40. Mantle's rise and decline lines up so well with expected aging curves of caucasoid players that despite his storied injuries and alcohol abuse, I'm not sure how much of a special role they played in his career (as opposed to his life) outside of maybe halting any chance to hit 700 home runs. First his legs go, then he loses the ability to swiftly bounce back from injuries and his bat slows down, until we last see him living off of old player skills. And despite the narrative of the fallen idol and the obsession over his dropping batting average- old Mantle in 1967 was still a top ten hitter in the American League, and twice as valuable offensively as the league average player and really not that far from Mays. He just wasn't in the same league as Mays defensively/speed-wise after 33.

    Baseball Reference ranks the top 6 center fielders by their system of WAR like this:

    1)Willie Mays
    2) Ty Cobb
    3)Tris Speaker
    4) Mickey Mantle
    5) Ken Griffey Jr.
    6) Joe DiMaggio

    (with Mike Trout currently at 16 and climbing)

    The drop off between Mantle and Griffey for career WAR is about 17 points. The gap between Speaker and Mantle is about 24 points and then Cobb and Mays are in the 150s over all.

    Putting aside how long ago Cobb and Speaker played and the questionable compatibility of the old deadballers to the post-WWII crowd, having Mays on your team is worth almost a whole season of wins compared to a replacement player. Whereas Mantle would be the equivalent of an all-time great team (at 110) and Griffey would bring you the equivalent a perennial wild-card contender in today's game.

    But when it comes to offense, I think Mantle outpaces them all- perhaps the most concise number of his dominance listed being his 172 OPS+. Mays slots 155 for his career and at 160 if we only take him in the same 18 year period that Mantle played.

    The most comparable player and the one who is currently beating him at 174+, is the phenomenal Mike Trout. Now Trout is still in his prime at 26 and so his numbers don't have any decline yet. But I wouldn't be surprised if he follows the old man Mantle trajectory, this time without the self-abuse.

    Mickey Mantle’s last season in 1968 at age 36 sounds pretty bad: .237 with 18 HRs and 54 RBIs, but that was 1968 in Yankee Stadium. And he had 106 walks and grounded into only 9 double plays in 144 games.

    His OPS+ was still 143, or 1.43 better than league average, which is a pretty solid All Star.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anon
    Right. It may not been as pretty to watch but even diminished he was an offensive force.

    Add in the .380 on base percentage (4th best in both leagues) and a 4.4 WPA making him tenth best in all of baseball and he was still really valuable in the teeth of the year of the pitcher. Just not Mays-1968 valuable.

    Of course, Mays that year was 3rd in win probability added, at 6; right behind his teammate McCovey at 6.1 and both behind the great and misanthropic Dick Allen at 6.6.
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  171. Anon[274] • Disclaimer says:
    @Steve Sailer
    Mickey Mantle's last season in 1968 at age 36 sounds pretty bad: .237 with 18 HRs and 54 RBIs, but that was 1968 in Yankee Stadium. And he had 106 walks and grounded into only 9 double plays in 144 games.

    His OPS+ was still 143, or 1.43 better than league average, which is a pretty solid All Star.

    Right. It may not been as pretty to watch but even diminished he was an offensive force.

    Add in the .380 on base percentage (4th best in both leagues) and a 4.4 WPA making him tenth best in all of baseball and he was still really valuable in the teeth of the year of the pitcher. Just not Mays-1968 valuable.

    Of course, Mays that year was 3rd in win probability added, at 6; right behind his teammate McCovey at 6.1 and both behind the great and misanthropic Dick Allen at 6.6.

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  172. gsjackson says:
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Average age of MLB fans is about 47 yrs old, most of these are whites. From 1950's to now it's still dominated by Baby Boomer Generation in the stands. Younger white fans of MLB are becoming more and more a rarity. As the Baby Boomers slowly pass away from the scene, who will replace them? Not blacks, not enough Asians. Possibly Latinos in certain select cities.

    Also keep in mind that during the '70's the traditional MLB parks built ca.1910's were torn down to give way to asymetrical mostly astroturf all purpose sports arenas that seated 50k-60k. Then with the coming of Camden Yards in 1992, most of the all purpose sports arenas were either torn down or given over to NFL franchises (many of which promptly abandoned them for newer stadiums as well). The newer MLB retro looking ballparks average about 35-43k in attendance.

    In other words the newer MLB parks hold between 15-20k fewer seats in attendance.

    The Old Yankee Stadium could at maximum capacity seat around 80k. After the mid. 70's refurbishing it held around 56k. The New Yankee Stadium, built in 2009 across the street from the Old Yankee Stadium, seats around 50k.

    If the Big Apple has drastically reduced seating for the most successful North American Sports franchise of the 20th century, that tells you that the rest of the US's MLB franchises have done the same thing. Ever since Camden Yards opened, the newer MLB parks seat fewer and fewer fans than the previous generation.

    Translation: Fewer and fewer people attend live MLB games than they did at mid. century as the parks seat fewer and fewer fans now.

    Meanwhile NCAA Football still has its premier franchises/schools with stadiums that seat upwards of 80k, in some cases some seat 100-110k.

    “Translation: Fewer and fewer people attend live MLB games than they did at mid-century as the parks seat fewer and fewer fans now.”

    I’m sort of speechless at this non sequitur. They do keep attendance records, you know, and while there may be more high rollers now who own box seats and don’t come to all the games, attendance from mid-century to now has gone up more than 200 percent. You could look it up.

    The idea with the smaller retro parks, beyond aesthetic appeal (and in that realm they succeeded wildly in surpassing the old cookie-cutter multi-purpose parks, in my opinion), was to get a more intimate setting, fewer bad seats, more boxes — so that they could sell these seats for a lot more money, which explains the high average age of fans, at least those in the ballpark.

    This dirge for baseball has been played at least since the mid-60s, when football supplanted it as the national pastime. The lyrics never change, but attendance just keeps going up and up, in the minors and college as well as MLB.

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  173. gsjackson says:
    @The Last Real Calvinist
    Your post about pitcher heights got me thinking: have average pitcher heights in MLB been increasing? Is this related to what seems to be the increasing emphasis on sheer velocity?

    I don't have the time or the wherewithal to answer those questions fully, so I took a quick first step. Here are pitcherlist.com's projected top 10 MLB starting pitchers going into the 2018 season, and their heights (according to MLB.com):

    1. Clayton Kershaw -- 6' 4"

    2. Max Scherzer -- 6' 3"

    3. Chris Sale -- 6' 6"

    4. Corey Kluber -- 6' 4"

    5. Noah Syndergaard -- 6' 6"

    6. Luis Severino -- 6' 2"

    7. Madison Bumgarner -- 6' 4"

    8. Stephen Strasburg -- 6' 5"

    9. Jacob de Grom -- 6' 4"

    10. Zach Greinke -- 6' 2"

    So all 10 are 6' 2" or above.

    Then I went back 50 years, and picked the top 10 pitchers from the 1968 season (i.e. 'The Year of the Pitcher'), which seems to be a nicely-symmetrical point of comparison. I picked them according to their wins above replacement.

    Those 10 pitchers and their heights are as follows:

    1. Bob Gibson -- 6' 1"

    2. Luis Tiant -- 6' 0"

    3. Denny McLain -- 6' 1" (BTW, this was the year he won 31 games)

    4. Tom Seaver -- 6' 1"

    5. Stan Bahnsen -- 6' 2"

    6. Jerry Koosman -- 6' 2"

    7. Fergie Jenkins -- 6' 5"

    8. Dean Chance -- 6' 3"

    9. Dave McNally -- 5' 11"

    10. Tommy John -- 6' 3" (Am I the only one surprised he was this tall?)

    Clearly a shorter group.

    To sum up:

    Average height of 2018 top-10 pitcher: exactly 6' 4".

    Average height of 1968 top-10 pitcher: just under 6' 2".

    True, and Boswell wrote about the 5-10 to 6-2 pitcher around the time Kershaw was beginning his dominance. I guess to some extent, it’s a function of scouts always doubling down on the conventional wisdom and drafting almost exclusively now tall pitchers with high velocity, and they’re the ones who get a shot. As in any profession, there’s a lot of butt covering going on in baseball talent evaluation, and if you’ve got your butt covered with conventionally accepted numbers like height and mph, then when the prospect doesn’t work out you can still say he had the measurables. Same thing no doubt in football and basketball.

    Count me as shocked Tommy John was that tall, and two inches taller than Bob Gibson. That can’t be right about Gibson, can it? He was a basketball player at Creighton, was he a guard?

    And hey, I’m here to testify you can be 5-8 and still not find a repeatable golf swing.

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  174. @The Last Real Calvinist

    Perhaps it’s kind of like golf, where you don’t see too many 6-6 low handicappers — the bigger all those moving parts are, the harder it is assemble them into a repeatable motion.

     

    I'm 6' 5" -- tell me about it!

    But these days there are lots of MLB pitchers from 6' 2" to 6' 6".

    My impression is that professional golfers are probably around, say, the 75th percentile in height on average.

    Read More
    • Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist
    It's pretty easy to argue that for men, being around 6' 1" or 6' 2" is optimal in a lot of ways.
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  175. @Anon
    Mantle would've been an interesting nature/nuture & european/african case if he could've stayed on beyond 36 and given us data for Mantle at 40. Mantle's rise and decline lines up so well with expected aging curves of caucasoid players that despite his storied injuries and alcohol abuse, I'm not sure how much of a special role they played in his career (as opposed to his life) outside of maybe halting any chance to hit 700 home runs. First his legs go, then he loses the ability to swiftly bounce back from injuries and his bat slows down, until we last see him living off of old player skills. And despite the narrative of the fallen idol and the obsession over his dropping batting average- old Mantle in 1967 was still a top ten hitter in the American League, and twice as valuable offensively as the league average player and really not that far from Mays. He just wasn't in the same league as Mays defensively/speed-wise after 33.

    Baseball Reference ranks the top 6 center fielders by their system of WAR like this:

    1)Willie Mays
    2) Ty Cobb
    3)Tris Speaker
    4) Mickey Mantle
    5) Ken Griffey Jr.
    6) Joe DiMaggio

    (with Mike Trout currently at 16 and climbing)

    The drop off between Mantle and Griffey for career WAR is about 17 points. The gap between Speaker and Mantle is about 24 points and then Cobb and Mays are in the 150s over all.

    Putting aside how long ago Cobb and Speaker played and the questionable compatibility of the old deadballers to the post-WWII crowd, having Mays on your team is worth almost a whole season of wins compared to a replacement player. Whereas Mantle would be the equivalent of an all-time great team (at 110) and Griffey would bring you the equivalent a perennial wild-card contender in today's game.

    But when it comes to offense, I think Mantle outpaces them all- perhaps the most concise number of his dominance listed being his 172 OPS+. Mays slots 155 for his career and at 160 if we only take him in the same 18 year period that Mantle played.

    The most comparable player and the one who is currently beating him at 174+, is the phenomenal Mike Trout. Now Trout is still in his prime at 26 and so his numbers don't have any decline yet. But I wouldn't be surprised if he follows the old man Mantle trajectory, this time without the self-abuse.

    There are signs that Trout is still heading upward towards his peak. He had a string of seasons in his early 20s with OPSs in the 900s.

    But in his injury-shortened 2017 and so far this year he’s added over 100 points to his OPS. His numbers at this stage really are Mantle-esque.

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  176. @Ibound1

    blacks are better than whites at improvisatory stuff like jazz, running with the football, and preaching

     

    That is a limited view of improvisation. Far more important improvisation is found in engineering in almost every sphere. That is engineering a solution to an unplanned problem with limited materials on hand. Watch Apollo 13 to see the story of improvisation of carbon dioxide scrubbers. As for verbal improvisation, that is responding on your feet to what your opponent has said, not reiterating the same theme in a new way, does anyone compare to British parliamentarians, to Churchill?

    That is a limited view of improvisation. Far more important improvisation is found in engineering in almost every sphere. That is engineering a solution to an unplanned problem with limited materials on hand.

    But blacks are known for that, particularly the part about limited materials on hand. The “updated” term for this is Afro-engineering. Surely, we all know the old term.

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  177. @Steve Sailer
    My impression is that professional golfers are probably around, say, the 75th percentile in height on average.

    It’s pretty easy to argue that for men, being around 6′ 1″ or 6′ 2″ is optimal in a lot of ways.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anon
    Not really. Being that tall is kind of a waste.
    , @res
    I think there is something to that, but that argument is subject to issues similar to the idea that an IQ of 120 or so is optimal. When evaluating outcomes you need to account for the prevalence of men at a given height. As a more concrete example, you might not see as many 6' 6" men doing well at something just because there are not that many of them. There is also a comparative advantage aspect in that those men might be choosing other sports which place greater value on height.

    On another note, longevity is a possible counterexample: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1071721/
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  178. @Galactic Overlord
    I just went through all of the season-ending NBA rosters. Including players on two-way contracts, there were 95 white players on NBA rosters out of 510 roster slots (15 regular slots, 2 two-way slots). This number may not be quite accurate because I'm counting as white one Egyptian (Abdel Nader) and a couple of Latin Americans I'm not totally sure about (J.J. Barea, a Puerto Rican, and Raul Neto, a Brazilian). Also, I'm omitting players who have confirmed non-white ancestry, with notable examples being the Lopez twins (Afro-Cuban on father's side), Kyle Kuzma (at least one African-American parent), and Steven Adams (New Zealander with white English father and Tongan mother).

    With those caveats in mind, here's the breakdown:

    41 were born in the US. This count, however, includes two US-born players who represent European national teams. Kosta Koufos has represented Greece, but he was born and raised in Ohio and played one season at Ohio State; he was a Greek citizen by birth because his parents were Greek immigrants. The other is Domantas Sabonis (Lithuanian born in Portland, OR), whom I mentioned earlier in this thread. Unlike Koufos, he developed mainly in Europe, only returning to the States to play two seasons at Gonzaga.

    One player, T. J. Leaf, was born in Israel to American parents (his dad was playing pro ball in Israel at the time) and grew up in the San Diego area. He has represented Israel at under-18 level.

    For completeness' sake, there were anywhere from 44 to 47 Europeans (defined as countries within FIBA's European zone), depending on how you count Koufos, Leaf, and Sabonis. As for other nationalities... Latin Americans: Barea, Neto, and Manu Ginóbili. Aussies: Aron Baynes (born in NZ, but raised in Australia), Matthew Dellavedova, and Joe Ingles. Canadians: Kelly Olynyk and Nik Stauskas. North African: Nader.

    Sabonis’ father played in the NBA as well.

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    • Replies: @Galactic Overlord
    I know. I mentioned earlier in the comment thread that Domantas had been born in Portland when Arvydas was playing for the Blazers.
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  179. @Steve Sailer
    I think USC beat UCLA like 46-44 or so around 1970. Contra Malcolm Gladwell, the higher the score the more likely the more talented team is to win.

    It was the regular season ender on Saturday, March 8, 1969. That season everyone in the Pac 8 played their rival in a home-and-home the final weekend of the season. UCLA won 61-55 the night before at the Sports Arena.

    The following year the same happened in reverse, with USC winning on Friday night 87-86.

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  180. @gsjackson
    Yes, I was referring to youth soccer, where little Johnny needn't suffer the ignominy of getting hit in the head by a fly ball or missing the ball by a foot at the plate. There might be a brief moment of embarrassment if he kicks at the ball and misses, but the game moves along so fast that it's scarcely noticed, and there's no time to stew about it.

    I coached a coed 1st grade soccer team years ago, and I told the kids, “If you see the ball near the goal, kick it in”. We won one game 3-1 and we scored all the goals. Kevin remembered my advice and kicked the ball in the other teams’ goal. He was thrilled.

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  181. Anon[332] • Disclaimer says:
    @The Last Real Calvinist
    It's pretty easy to argue that for men, being around 6' 1" or 6' 2" is optimal in a lot of ways.

    Not really. Being that tall is kind of a waste.

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  182. @ScarletNumber
    Here in North Jersey a number of bowling alleys have closed, but the ones who survived have thrived and are very busy.

    Bowling was very popular here when Mark Roth was at the height of his career. NJ sponsors bowling as a high school sport, but the NCAA doesn't for men, which many boys don't realize until they try to get a bowling scholarship.

    There are NCAA bowling teams for women, though, with Nebraska being the most successful. Fun Fact: their coach is Bill Straub. Kim Berke was one of his bowlers and he ended up marrying her. Their daughter Meghan is a current Nebraska bowler. If this story sounds hot to you, you haven't seen Kim or Meghan.

    Bill couldn’t ask for better – poor guy hit every branch on the way down, as Grandma used to say….

    Kim now manages the offices of the bowling team. It never ceases to amaze me how academia, with its constant bragging about equality for all, fairness, and so on is easily the most nepotistic enterprise going. Shtupping your student athlete and now ready to get her on the payroll? No problem! Have a no talent hack of a spouse you demand be employed with a sinecure before you will consider joining our faculty? No problem! Want your kids to get preferential treatment for admissions because you are an alumnus, or free tuition because you are a professor? No problem!

    These places all seem to be run by Alf….

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  183. @ScarletNumber
    Sabonis' father played in the NBA as well.

    I know. I mentioned earlier in the comment thread that Domantas had been born in Portland when Arvydas was playing for the Blazers.

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  184. @Anon
    After the wild, recreational drug-fueled 70s and 80s with their bitter labor disputes; MLB made a conscious effort to weed out personalities which were highly neurotic, disagreeable, anti-social and so on...

    Entering the 90s, you had players like Canseco who felt entitled to say some really obscene things to children in the stands. You had alleged child molester Mel Hall bullying young, introspective and sensitive Bernie Williams to the point of tears. You had Vince Coleman throwing bleach at fans; David Cone facing allegations of masturbating (and cocaine use) in the Mets bullpen in front of fans. You had Bobby Bonilla willing to show reporters "the Bronx" and Kevin Elster recounting his orgy-filled nights with any reporter in earshot...rape accusations aplenty...especially for those wild Mets teams.

    And I don't think the story has been written yet as to how badly recreational drug use became in Major League Baseball and what effects it had on the culture. It went from a sport of all american alcohol abuse and greenies to speedballs sometime in the early 70s. I believe one the many reasons the MLB turned it's head on steroids and performance enhancers is because the culture changed from a destructive hedonism to a more constructive one (for them). A guy obsessed with his physique may still be snorting cocaine but he's probably not doing copious amounts after every game. If he dies at 50,60-something after his playing days; well, that's an unfortunate hazard- at least the MLB isn't running the risk of one of their star players turning up dead in the middle of a road series at 20 or 30. Look at how quickly Jose Fernandez was memory-holed by the sport once his toxicology report came back with cocaine and alcohol in his system. Dead at 24- a nightmare for baseball.

    Doc Ellis, the star pitcher who cleaned his life up explained it well: when he started in the late sixties, he was a (self-described) angry young black man with alcohol problems. But the team leader, Roberto Clemente, didn't allow other substances into his Pirates clubhouse. Once Clemente died tragically in '70 and the old guard retired, it became an absolute free-for-all among many teams, including his own. Ellis talked about being uncertain about going to the Yankees until he was assured by someone (unnamed, as Ellis was no rat) on the team that they were "cool" about it. He said that those late 70s Yankees teams and New York were awash in every substance imaginable. That he himself, who couldn't simply be a dabbler like some guys, couldn't remember a single thing about his years in New York. Additionally, and bear in mind I cannot substantiate this bit of gossip, so take it with a grain of salt but; I've heard that Jackson's "stirring" of the Yankee clubhouse went beyond him merely being a loudmouth showboat. While no saint, he was against the rampant abuses, and expressive about it- which rankled teammates.

    Jackson of course went on to make anti-drug PSAs and is one of the most vocal hall of famers about keeping steroid/HGH users out of Cooperstown.

    So baseball definitely decided to breed better behavior by making personnel decisions around certain characteristics before a player even sniffs a major league roster. Over the last two decades, it's had an effect. Instead of saying so directly, they have filled the sport (and sports reporting) with eliding- jargon about searching for guys with "leadership qualities", "intangibles" and long discussions about "good clubhouse guys" and "clubhouse chemistry" discussions which always talk around the issues.

    It has also, for the owners, created a union of more compliant and agreeable individuals who've been losing ground (if not in goodies) in the seemingly perennial power games with the owners. Players definitely have more perks and bigger salaries than any in the past could've imagined but look at how willingly almost every player on a roster has become to jump through every hoop the owner asks of them- go the extra mile for fans, sit for every tv/newspaper interview without complaint, do the commercial, meet with sick kids....they are compensated, sure, but probably not to the extent the brand advertisement should probably pay. The guys in the 80s wouldn't have lifted a finger, let alone participate in the round-the-clock hustle the modern player does.

    Vince Coleman threw a lit firecracker at fans and Bret Saberhagen shot a reporter with a Super Soaker filled with bleach.

    There is nothing alleged about Mel Hall, since he is currently doing time for statutory rape. His proclivities in that arena weren’t known at the time, so you might be misremembering him for his teammate Luis Polonia, who was found guilty of having sex with a 15 year old in 1989. The Yankees were so troubled by this that they brought him back to play for them on two separate occasions, and played in the majors until 2000.

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  185. res says:
    @The Last Real Calvinist
    It's pretty easy to argue that for men, being around 6' 1" or 6' 2" is optimal in a lot of ways.

    I think there is something to that, but that argument is subject to issues similar to the idea that an IQ of 120 or so is optimal. When evaluating outcomes you need to account for the prevalence of men at a given height. As a more concrete example, you might not see as many 6′ 6″ men doing well at something just because there are not that many of them. There is also a comparative advantage aspect in that those men might be choosing other sports which place greater value on height.

    On another note, longevity is a possible counterexample: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1071721/

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  186. Kyle says:
    @Anonymous

    Whites, on average, have more slow-twitch muscles, higher lung capacities, and shorter arms and legs. I’m not sure about motor control as blacks seem to do fine in baseball.
     
    Blacks relatively underperform at baseball. Witness, for example, the composition of the ranks of pitchers. But also other MLB positions. Many blacks who do excel have Caucasian or Asian (Hispanic, Amerindian) ancestry. It may be that a high concentration of fast-twitch fibers is detrimental to fine motor control. One can imagine it tending toward a certain jerkiness, or lack of control.

    See also Tiger Woods, Steph Curry, Klay Thompson, or quarterbacks.

    How did the ice age contribute to lower bone density?

    It didn’t. Lower bone density is obviously a result of domestication.

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    How so?
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  187. Anonymous[413] • Disclaimer says:
    @Kyle
    It didn't. Lower bone density is obviously a result of domestication.

    How so?

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  188. Joe Joe says:

    It would be interesting if one or more NBA teams tried to have an all white or majority white roster and play a white style. It would help if the rules on travelling, charging and palming were enforced. No way the powers that be would let that happen though

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  189. cecil says:

    Raise the rim to 11 feet and make them work to score.

    It would open up the game and bring back skill moves.

    Its time.

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