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Why the Increasing Frequency of Scare Quotes Around "White" People?
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From the New York Times opinion section:

How Italians Became ‘White’
By Brent Staples
Mr. Staples is a member of the editorial board.
OCT. 12, 2019

In the future, white people will always be referred to as “white” people, while black people will be referred to as “Black bodies” with a capital B.

I first noticed this trend with Ta-Nehisi Coates’ hilarious bestseller in 2015, where blacks are “black bodies” and whites are “people who think that they are white.”

In other words, I guess, TNC wants to imply that blacks are authentically black, but whites all have a touch of the tar brush.

This just seems childish and moronic, but it appears a lot of people are getting into this kind of thinking now. After all, race is just a social construct, so we get to say whatever we feel, so we just spew random insults at whites, such as implying that they suck because they are part black. Which, logically, is self-defeating, but TNC didn’t get his Genius Grant for being logical, now did he?

In reality, 23andMe reported that their customers who self-identify as black are 385 times blacker genetically than their customers who self-identify as white.

 
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  1. I get the sense that commenting on the idiocy of the media elite is extremely monotonous.

    • Agree: Cagey Beast
  2. I noticed it too it’s really all about erasing us. I believe the general idea is that “whiteness” is merely a construct (rather than a shared European identity) and must be obliterated at all costs while “blackness” is a real identity that formed due to the slave trade demolishing any tribal roots that they otherwise might have identified with.

  3. In other words, I guess, TNC wants to imply that blacks are authentically black, but whites all have a touch of the tar brush.

    Not me. My 23andMe results show White as the driven snow (as do my results from Ancestry and FTDNA) . All northwestern European.

    • Replies: @Hail
    It's interesting to browse profiles on 23andMe of very distant cousins, which is almost like looking at a random sample. I've noticed most of my DNA relatives get 0.0% Subsaharan (as I do). Those who get anything beyond a trivially low amount (0.1%, 0.2%) tend to have a Latin American grandparent.

    I have someone who 23andMe predicts may be my fourth cousin, who gets (roughly):
    - 63.5% NW European
    - 16% Spanish & Portuguese,
    - 1.5% Other & Broadly South European,
    - 5.5% Broadly European,

    - 1% West Asian & North African,
    - 9% Jewish,

    - 1.5% Subsaharan,
    - 0.5% Amerind,
    - 1% Unassigned (I'd guess this is also Amerind),

    This (1.5%) is the highest % Subsaharan I recall seeing among 23andMe DNA relatives. It looks very likely,that this person has 2 of 8 'Hispanic' great-grandparents (perhaps largely of old-stock White Mexican descent in the US West?), 1 of 8 great-grandparents primarily Jewish (three-quarters), and 5 of 8 NW-European-origin great-grandparents. It is on one of those latter branches my own link to the person comes in, at some distant time in the 19th century.

    The person's 2 of 8 Hispanic great-grandparents would have averaged 6% Subsaharan (.015/.25) and 4-6% Amerind, which I think is typical for White Mexicans. Blend that with the 0%-Subsaharan 6 other great-grandparents, and the person winds up with the 1.5% Subsaharan.

    I got 0.0% Subsaharan, 0.0% Amerind, 0.0% East Asian (an early version had 0.1% Yakut, I think), and 0.0% Jewish My case is typical among distant cousins whose profiles I've seen.

  4. Which, logically, is self-defeating.

    …but it’s truly just “self-defeating”.

    We recently learned that blacks getting ahead (in school or otherwise) are actually holding blacks back because they just be “acting white”.

    Self-defeat is a feature.

    Interesting article though. Having some Italian family, I know that when Italians immigrate, there will be trouble. That’s how it is.

    Signalling!

    The Times was not owned by the family that controls it today when it dismissed Ida B. Wells as a “slanderous and nasty-minded mulattress” for rightly describing rape allegations as “a thread bare lie” that Southerners used against black men who had consensual sexual relationships with white women [I wonder who made those rape allegations]. Nevertheless, as a Times editorialist of nearly 30 years standing — and a student of the institution’s history — I am outraged and appalled by the nakedly racist treatment my 19th-century predecessors displayed in writing about African-Americans and Italian immigrants.

    Opening the door to dangerous badthink!

    Harrison’s Columbus Day proclamation in 1892 opened the door for Italian-Americans to write themselves into the American origin story, in a fashion that piled myth upon myth. As the historian Danielle Battisti shows in “Whom We Shall Welcome,” they rewrote history by casting Columbus as “the first immigrant” — even though he never set foot in North America and never immigrated anywhere (except possibly to Spain), and even though the United States did not exist as a nation during his 15th-century voyage. The mythologizing, carried out over many decades, granted Italian-Americans “a formative role in the nation-building narrative.” It also tied Italian-Americans closely to the paternalistic assertion, still heard today, that Columbus “discovered” a continent that was already inhabited by Native Americans.

    Weird, hurried and inapposite conclusion!

    This shows yet again how racial categories that people mistakenly view as matters of biology grow out of highly politicized myth making.

    THE END!

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    Self-defeat is a feature.

    Really disturbingly un-self-aware story on NPR (I believe it was TAL) about the annual Caribbean Knife Riot they have in NYC. The crime was briefly acknowledged in this Maoist sentence "some people have come to associate [the parade] with crime." There's the black guy narrator -- he's not a Jamaican guy, he's not a Trinidadian guy, he's just a black guy -- sadly noting the way how people who are from somewhere mention where they're from. But the saddest is the costume supply emporium with the real bird feathers and inexhaustable pallette of sequins. It's not run by a Jamaican, a Trinidadian, or a black guy. It's run by a Chinese guy, who relates in wonderment that these people save up all year to pay $25 per feather to build a costume. Also sad is the phenomenon of "storming," where people attempting to authentically represent a culture, however empty and degenerate, have to put up with tourists in street clothes physically invading the parade.
    There was a much earlier NPR example of un-self-awareness, where a black girl's granmama lied to get her into a white people school, and the black girl related with amazement (under the Orwellian controlnframe that this demonstrated white people witholding magic out of racism), that in white people school the teacher actually taught the class, as opposed to running around dealing with discipline issues all day.
    , @fnn

    The Times was not owned by the family that controls it today when it dismissed Ida B. Wells as a “slanderous and nasty-minded mulattress” ...
     
    Outright lying or Talmudic hair-splitting?
    , @anon
    Having some Italian family, I know that when Italians immigrate, there will be trouble

    A lot of immigrants came from Sicily. Are Sicilians really Italian?
    Asking for a friend.
  5. The New York Times is really leading the band with this tune. Just today, I read “Racists Are Recruiting. Watch Your White Sons,” and “For nearly all of American history, the nation’s founding charter and laws have been interpreted exclusively by white men.” The maddening thing is that it’s the Times and other ideologically indistinguishable publications that accuse Trump of stoking racial animosity.

  6. Much better than plain old White:

    THE HISTORIC NATIVE BORN WHITE AMERICAN MAJORITY

    THE RACE

  7. I look forward to the new census forms.

    Is this somehow connected to the use of (((white)))?

    • Replies: @Logan
    How Italians Became ‘White’

    A widely promoted meme right now. Same is being stated for Irish, possibly other ethnies.

    Problem is that it just isn't really true. AFAIK, Italians, Irish and other Europeans were never legally classified as non-white in America. There may have been social prejudice along these lines, but then there was also social prejudice against hillbillies, white trash, Okies and other groups entirely known to be white.
    , @Kronos
    Maybe they want a civil war between the whites and Caucasians? Maybe city “white” liberals see themselves more as Caucasian?
  8. Brent Staples:

    This may not answer the question about scare quotes around the word white, but it explains a few other things.

    • Agree: JimDandy
    • Replies: @Kolya Krassotkin
    Staples needs to lose those glasses and that button-down shirt. He didn't invent those, nor did his ancestors. Continuing to use those is cultural appropriation.
  9. I figured “people who think they are white” wasn’t a statement on the biological integrity of whites, but a race-is-a-social-construct type thing.

  10. They want whites to become a kind of racial noahide….a second class black person who identifies with the black narrative, but can never actually be black.

  11. Genetic research in the 2010s suggests that the White American genepool may have up to 20x as much Neanderthal ancestry as Subsaharan ancestry. (And I believe most Whites have 0.0% Subsaharan.)

    Possible future headline:

    How Neanderthals Became ‘White’

    • Replies: @Redneck farmer
    Well, Neaderthals WEREN'T exterminated by aggressive African immigrants with a propensity to violence, we'll learn.
  12. Italians were always legally white. They could marry other whites when miscegenation laws existed. They could attend “whites only” institutions etc. Presumably this is well known on here.

    You really think white people looked at the statue of david and saw a person of another race?

    • Replies: @Jack D
    Yes and no. The David yes, Sicilian and Southern Italian peasant immigrants not so much.

    I have a friend whose father grew up in a Jersey shore resort community in the 30s. His dad said that while the Italians (unlike the blacks) attended the same school as the whites, they were treated as 2nd class citizens. For example all the Italian kids were assumed to be lice ridden and they would put kerosene in their hair as a "treatment".

    Italians in America at one time occupied more or less the niche currently occupied by Mexicans. They weren't black but they weren't quite white either. People had no problem distinguishing between high class Italians like Caruso or Valentino or Michaelangelo and Luigi the swarthy Sicilian guy who peddled fruit.
    , @OscarWildeLoveChild
    Nope, no more than the most popular TV show of the 1950's, which showed SEPARATE BEDS for a married couple, considered a Cuban ("Latino") to be of a different race than a red-head. It was permissible because no one at the time considered obviously white Hispanics to be any thing other than a sub-category ("ethnicity") of the white, European race, any more than Italians, even dark Sicilians (ethnic as they may be).

    MENA is the next "we're not 'white'" category coming. Even if Whites originated in what is today modern-day Iran, Iraq, Syria and Turkey.
  13. The URL is funny; is it the original article title?

    /10/12/opinion/columbus-day-italian-american-racism.html

    “How to Win Friends and Influence People by Hectoring them for Being Racist,” forthcoming book by Brent Staples, New York Times Editorial Board Member.

    • LOL: Redneck farmer
    • Replies: @Charon

    “How to Win Friends and Influence People by Hectoring them for Being Racist,” forthcoming book by Brent Staples
     
    You may think that's funny, but the truth is that a whole lot of"GoodWhites" wouldn't get out of bed in the morning if they couldn't think of themselves as irredeemable racists who must perform daily penance.

    Much of which consists of hectoring other white people for being racist.
    , @res
    Good observation about the URL, but based on the article subtitle (? text above the title) "Vicious bigotry, reluctant acceptance: an American story" and body text I think "racism" in the URL meant against Italian Americans, not by them.

    The oldest archive link I see has the same article title:
    https://web.archive.org/web/20191012143024/https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/10/12/opinion/columbus-day-italian-american-racism.html
  14. I think the point is that whiteness is a social construct, so you’re not born white, you are choosing to accept the evil heritage of whiteness.

    So if you have European ancestors it is incumbent upon you to reject your whiteness or something. (I doubt it would let you walk through the South Side of Chicago at 2 AM though.)

    • Replies: @El Dato

    so you’re not born white, you are choosing to accept the evil heritage of whiteness
     
    Padme: "I don't recognize you. What's wrong with you?"
    Anakin: "I chose ... WHITENESS!"
    Padme: "Can't you just behave more like Jar Jar Binks."
    , @BenKenobi

    you are choosing to accept the evil heritage of Whiteness.
     
    I know I am!
    , @216
    The goal is to put a mental serfdom upon us; which has a better chance of succeeding than we'd expect.

    Should conservatives be thrown out of power in 2020, they will rebrand this white guilt as a new civic virtue. The "Conservative Case for Reparations"

    We see early signs of this emerging in the Washington Examiner, owned by "Woke Phil" Anschutz. They are hedging their bets.
    , @Fidelios Automata
    But that would mean that we could escape the Original Sin of White Privilege. I don't think we're allowed to do that.
    , @Amerimutt Golems
    Cognitive dissonance.

    Race is a social construct but IQ differences are real. Which is it?
  15. Maybe they have to use scare-quotes because Italians were always legally considered white in the U.S:
    https://entitledtoanopinion.wordpress.com/2013/02/24/pathetic-that-this-even-has-to-be-pointed-out/

    • Agree: syonredux
    • Replies: @S. Anonyia
    Spaniards were also always considered white, no matter how many of their crafty fair-skinned conquistador descendants (like Xochitl Hinojosa, that Anderson Cooper lookalike from Univision, author of “My Time Among the Whites” Jennine Capo Crucet, and Guillermo Del Toro) want to twist the facts to their advantage now. Thanks, Richard Nixon.
    , @Barnard
    How far back does this stupid idea go? I first remember seeing it about the time of the blog post you linked to, in the early days of Obama's second term. The Tuskegee Institute updated their lynching map in an attempt to make people think Italian anarchists and Spanish cattle rustlers and horse thieves were victims of white supremacy just in the last couple of years. From what I can tell, they aren't making much progress with the public in getting this idea accepted.
    , @syonredux

    Maybe they have to use scare-quotes because Italians were always legally considered white in the U.S:
     
    Indeed. All this talk about how "X" (Irish, Italians, Poles, Jews, etc) became White is utter bilge.


    William B. Taliaferro seems to have done pretty well for himself.....

    William Booth Taliaferro ( /ˈtɒlɪvər/ TOL-i-vər; December 28, 1822 – February 27, 1898), was a United States Army officer, a lawyer, legislator, Confederate general in the American Civil War, and Grand Master of Masons in Virginia.
     

    William Booth Taliaferro was born in Gloucester County, Virginia, to an Anglo-Italian family, the Taliaferros, who had settled in Virginia in the early 17th century from London. He was the son of Francis Amanda Todd (Booth) and Warner Throckmorton Taliaferro,[1] and the nephew of James A. Seddon, who would become Secretary of War for the Confederate States of America under Jefferson Davis.
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_B._Taliaferro
  16. The scare quotes are meant to indicate the author’s awareness that “race is a social construct,” an important article of faith in academic circles that has now thoroughly filtered down to the woke drop-out lumpenproletariat (i.e., TNC). Hence the weird antiquarian interest in debates about whether people who are unquestionably European (Italians, Irish) are in fact “white.”

    The funny thing is that, per their faith that “race is a social construct,” wokesters are in the process of constructing a racial mega-category—“people of color.” It is a bold move: Whatever late nineteenth/early twentieth century Americans may have thought about the Italians and Irish, they are surely part of the same broader culture—cultural movements like the renaissance were pan-European, spreading from Italy to Northern Europe. By contrast, the notion that someone whose ancestors were brought to the US as slaves centuries ago has some shared identity with the descendant of upper caste Brahmins who came twenty years ago to go to medical school, simply because they are both “people of color,” is ludicrous. It is pure construction meant to tie together an otherwise very unstable coalition.

    I think we need to “interrogate” this “people of color” category, the same way wokesters want to “interrogate” what it means to be “white.” For instance, why can’t Italians be “people of color”? Why not (perish the thought!) Russians? Spaniards (the original Hispanics!)?

    Making the woke left elaborate on who is and who isn’t one of those glorious “people of color” can only enlighten the discourse.

    • Replies: @anon
    https://youtu.be/PcZCGMCDzbU

    Now that was interrogation.
  17. Presumably the point of this article is to stir up White guilt among the Italian-American community:

    “Hey, your people were once Black, too!”

    Not happening. My paternal grandparents were Italian immigrants. My Dad was dark-skinned enough that when he had a tan he was mistaken for Black on more than one occasion.

    Furthermore, I am in total agreement that Italian immigration had some deleterious effects on American society — we brought a whole system of organized crime. Americans were well within their rights to stop additional Italian immigration, as they did, early in the 20th century.

    But, you know what? We didn’t need a Civil Rights Act or affirmative action to become assimilated, productive members of society. We stopped speaking Italian, worked hard and most dissociated themselves from the Mafia.

    We didn’t commit homicides at 8 times the rate of Whites, like Blacks do. We didn’t refuse to learn English like many Hispanics do.

    • Replies: @Jack D

    We didn’t refuse to learn English like many Hispanics do.
     
    TBH, in the olden days there were some (especially older immigrants and especially women who did not work outside the home) who never learned much beyond broken English. If you lived in an Italian ghetto you could have most of your needs fulfilled without ever having to speak English. If English was required, you could enlist one of your kids as a translator - THEY all went to school and learned English ASAP.

    The difference between today's Hispanics and Italians is that the pipeline from Italy eventually went dry and the old people died off. The other difference is that given cell phones and (for legal immigrants) cheap plane tickets, the connections to back home are maintained much more strongly. In the old days you might leave and never see your family again and maybe send or receive a letter a few times/year.
    , @Kolya Krassotkin
    Black people should take heart.

    If Italians could become white, then one day they can, too.
    , @MBlanc46
    Well, said, Cloudbuster. The kitchen of our Italian neighbors smelled different to ours, and they had strange things in their garden, such as zucchini. But their son Tony was commander of the local American Legion post. And in high school, Janice G. taught me the meaning of feminine beauty.
  18. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/10/08/magazine/ben-lerner-topeka-school.html

    Oh, and read this (might need a Zofran). The ‘white male guilt’ (he has parentheses of course or they’d never let him write) thing is ridiculous… he can’t write nonwhite male characters or he’d be appropriating but he can’t write just white males or he’d be racistsexist, so he has to write about how he’s a white male who can’t write anyone else. Oh, and it’s ‘autofiction’, which is writing about a fictionalized version of yourself (so you’re too lazy to make up characters now?).

    I can’t imagine trying to write a book now.

    • Replies: @Cloudbuster
    Growing up with leftist, psychologist parents is a particularly refined form of child abuse.
    , @Reg Cæsar

    Oh, and it’s ‘autofiction’...
     
    Autofiction is what Amazon devices have in place of autocorrect.
  19. @SFG
    I think the point is that whiteness is a social construct, so you're not born white, you are choosing to accept the evil heritage of whiteness.

    So if you have European ancestors it is incumbent upon you to reject your whiteness or something. (I doubt it would let you walk through the South Side of Chicago at 2 AM though.)

    so you’re not born white, you are choosing to accept the evil heritage of whiteness

    Padme: “I don’t recognize you. What’s wrong with you?”
    Anakin: “I chose … WHITENESS!”
    Padme: “Can’t you just behave more like Jar Jar Binks.”

  20. White=THE RACE!!!!….Sounds good to me……

    Will the Humpback Whales pay me a visit today…….

  21. In fairness, I think the use here makes sense.

    Italians were obviously white. (I mean, they obviously aren’t Northern or North Western European, at least in the case of the bulk of immigrants to the US from Calabria and Sicily) What the writer means is ‘how Italians stopped being foreign, outsiders or an outgroup’ but modern American discourse on race and ethnicity, ironically enough probably a result of the Ellis Island wave of European immigrants that changed America’s core ethnic identity into a core racial identity, can’t easily understand that. (“What do you mean, lol, all white people look the same and have no culture”)

    Difference scales on the axis of greatest magnitude, there were plenty of differences between immigrants and natives, German and Anglo, Protestants and Catholics, Irish and Italians, Jews and gentiles, German Jews and Eastern Jews but with the great migration into America’s main cities the most salient group difference was between blacks and whites even if that ‘white American’ hasn’t really become a meaningful ethnic term until relatively recently.

  22. I think the whole point is to make people stupider about race.

  23. @SFG
    https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/10/08/magazine/ben-lerner-topeka-school.html

    Oh, and read this (might need a Zofran). The 'white male guilt' (he has parentheses of course or they'd never let him write) thing is ridiculous... he can't write nonwhite male characters or he'd be appropriating but he can't write just white males or he'd be racistsexist, so he has to write about how he's a white male who can't write anyone else. Oh, and it's 'autofiction', which is writing about a fictionalized version of yourself (so you're too lazy to make up characters now?).

    I can't imagine trying to write a book now.

    Growing up with leftist, psychologist parents is a particularly refined form of child abuse.

  24. For decades The Chicago Defender used “Black” in their articles.

  25. Don’t think of them as scare quotes. (Or “scare quotes”.) Think of them as horns:

    In reality, 23andMe reported that their customers who self-identify as black are 385 times blacker genetically than their customers who self-identify as white.

    I’m confused. Is “385 times blacker” equivalent to “386 times as black”?

  26. @SFG
    https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/10/08/magazine/ben-lerner-topeka-school.html

    Oh, and read this (might need a Zofran). The 'white male guilt' (he has parentheses of course or they'd never let him write) thing is ridiculous... he can't write nonwhite male characters or he'd be appropriating but he can't write just white males or he'd be racistsexist, so he has to write about how he's a white male who can't write anyone else. Oh, and it's 'autofiction', which is writing about a fictionalized version of yourself (so you're too lazy to make up characters now?).

    I can't imagine trying to write a book now.

    Oh, and it’s ‘autofiction’…

    Autofiction is what Amazon devices have in place of autocorrect.

  27. @Hail
    Genetic research in the 2010s suggests that the White American genepool may have up to 20x as much Neanderthal ancestry as Subsaharan ancestry. (And I believe most Whites have 0.0% Subsaharan.)

    Possible future headline:

    How Neanderthals Became 'White'
     

    Well, Neaderthals WEREN’T exterminated by aggressive African immigrants with a propensity to violence, we’ll learn.

  28. Slightly off topic:

    The scale of Nonwhite Scab Labor in US Labor Markets:

    NONWHITE LEGAL IMMIGRANTS

    +

    THE NONWHITE CHILDREN OF NONWHITE LEGAL IMMIGRANTS

    THE SCALE IS MASSIVE

  29. Glad to see Hakon Rotmwrt has gotten a gig as a NYT columnist

  30. @william munny
    I look forward to the new census forms.

    Is this somehow connected to the use of (((white)))?

    How Italians Became ‘White’

    A widely promoted meme right now. Same is being stated for Irish, possibly other ethnies.

    Problem is that it just isn’t really true. AFAIK, Italians, Irish and other Europeans were never legally classified as non-white in America. There may have been social prejudice along these lines, but then there was also social prejudice against hillbillies, white trash, Okies and other groups entirely known to be white.

  31. @Hail
    The URL is funny; is it the original article title?

    /10/12/opinion/columbus-day-italian-american-racism.html
     
    "How to Win Friends and Influence People by Hectoring them for Being Racist," forthcoming book by Brent Staples, New York Times Editorial Board Member.

    “How to Win Friends and Influence People by Hectoring them for Being Racist,” forthcoming book by Brent Staples

    You may think that’s funny, but the truth is that a whole lot of”GoodWhites” wouldn’t get out of bed in the morning if they couldn’t think of themselves as irredeemable racists who must perform daily penance.

    Much of which consists of hectoring other white people for being racist.

  32. @SFG
    I think the point is that whiteness is a social construct, so you're not born white, you are choosing to accept the evil heritage of whiteness.

    So if you have European ancestors it is incumbent upon you to reject your whiteness or something. (I doubt it would let you walk through the South Side of Chicago at 2 AM though.)

    you are choosing to accept the evil heritage of Whiteness.

    I know I am!

  33. There is no black and white.

    It is just a convention of the English language that Europeans are described as “white” and people of visible African descent described as “black’, regardless of the actual color of their skin or hair. This does not necessarily carry over into other languages.

    The convention of calling people with African heritage black is not even particularly old in the English language, but in modern times it has replaced the Spanish word ‘negro’ (which is the Spanish word for black, if anyone does not know) in the English language.

    Mosquito is the Spanish word for little fly (mosca = a regular size fly, mosquito = a little fly). Perhaps we will soon start calling them little flies.

    We are all on a continuum between albino and black, but what is more significant is whether people have grown up in a particular culture of a particular ethnicity.

    For example, there is no doubt that ghetto blacks who grow up in the United States often acquire a set of behaviors that are regarded as undesirable, and the same may apply in Haiti, but the behaviors may be quite different, as is the language.

    Noticeable in the US is that the majority of ‘blacks’ seem to speak with a similar accent and vocabulary over vast stretches of this continental nation, whereas ‘blacks’ in England mostly speak with regional and local accents of the areas where their families live. Perhaps use of a common language contributes to racial integration.

    “Your husband’s been having an affair? Have a cuppa (tea)!”

    • Replies: @Jonathan Mason
    Here she (Trish Chanda) talks about the divide in her family between generations over her not being able to speak Bemba, which is the language of her father's tribe in Zambia.

    "African people are judgmental."

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ir3D5PtX6E
    , @Anonymous
    Albinism is a genetic defect that can appear in any population and non-albinos are not on an “albinism/blackness” spectrum.
    , @Fidelios Automata
    And the N-word derives from the Dutch word for black.
    , @Desiderius
    Had my boys at a playground and heard a black mother telling her daughter that “ain’t” isn’t a word. Hadn’t heard that one since I was a kid growing up among recovering hillbillies.
    , @Colin Wright
    '...Noticeable in the US is that the majority of ‘blacks’ seem to speak with a similar accent and vocabulary over vast stretches of this continental nation...'

    My suspicion is that that black accent is what resulted when negroes started speaking the English of their southern white masters. It's a southern accent processed by those big negro lips.

    ...just a theory.
    , @Anonymous
    There's a distinctive black accent in the UK, the idea that they mostly speak with regional British accents is not true for the most part. In fact I have a hard time imagining a black person speaking with Yorkshire accent and slang, sounds very unlikely to me.
    , @Amerimutt Golems

    Perhaps use of a common language contributes to racial integration.

     

    Enjoy your forced 'enrichment'then.
    , @Anonymous
    Absurd relativisim. White actually meant white historically. Europeans, that is those not descended from the Atlantic Islands peoples, were viewed as notably darker skinned on average and not the sort of white translucency you see in Britain Ireland.

    There was none of this farcical , " culture "

    That word didnt exist. ( root: Agriculture )

    Wearing odd hats and eating tacos is not "culture" which meant Arts, Literature, politics little p.

    Mimicking linguistic norms has nothing to do with genetic adaptations.
    , @Hapalong Cassidy
    I have had well-educated professionally successful black people tell me they needed to “axe” me something.
    , @The Anti-Gnostic
    I think you're missing something here. All the world over, there is an underlying black speech intonation whether they are speaking colloquial English, French, Spanish, German, etc. Everyone can tell when a speaker is black, with a few outliers.

    For that matter, I can tell the difference in speech between a Northern, urban black and a Low Country, rural black. But the underlying black intonation is still there. They will still sound different from Northern, urban whites and Low Country, rural whites.

    Is this racial/sub-racial intonation neurological, physiological or what? I don't know, and I don't think there is any research at all on the topic. Linguistics is one of those academic disciplines, like evolutionary biology, with these "here be dragons" areas that nobody dares to explore.
    , @International Jew

    Noticeable in the US is that the majority of ‘blacks’ seem to speak with a similar accent
     
    I've noticed a change actually. The old Deep South accent seems to be giving way to something else. Especially among black women. Listen to Ayanna Pressley, for example. But it's not just college-educated blacks; you can hear the new accent from the untalented 9/10ths too.
    , @syonredux

    We are all on a continuum between albino and black, but what is more significant is whether people have grown up in a particular culture of a particular ethnicity.
     
    Excellent parody.After all, as we all know, complexion alone does not determine race:

    https://www.aljazeera.com/mritems/Images/2016/6/7/e40268ad07e84671a810f9acc9cfc8b1_18.jpg


    https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/02/17/article-2280107-17A4F424000005DC-415_634x442.jpg

    as compared to


    https://celebmafia.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/elsa-hosk-victoria-s-secret-fashion-show-2015-after-party-in-nyc_4.jpg

    https://i.pinimg.com/736x/ba/40/80/ba4080a4d5cdc3a271945582b3775000.jpg

    For example, there is no doubt that ghetto blacks who grow up in the United States often acquire a set of behaviors that are regarded as undesirable, and the same may apply in Haiti, but the behaviors may be quite different, as is the language.

     

    Lotsa overlap there. Common Sub-Saharan African cultural inheritance. Low IQs.

    Noticeable in the US is that the majority of ‘blacks’ seem to speak with a similar accent and vocabulary over vast stretches of this continental nation, whereas ‘blacks’ in England mostly speak with regional and local accents of the areas where their families live. Perhaps use of a common language contributes to racial integration.
     
    Blacks are only recently arrived in the UK (the overwhelming majority are descended from people who arrived post-'45). Plus, their numbers are, by American standards, quite low (according to the 2011 census, the UK is 3.01% Black). Blacks in the USA, in contrast, are a long-settled population, with most tracing their ancestry to people who arrived prior to 1810. Blacks in the USA are also far more numerous (12.7% of the population).Those factors have allowed Blacks in the USA to preserve SSA cultural practices to a greater degree than their UK cousins.


    Of course Blacks, in the UK are not exactly perfect Britons....

    Police officers have the power to stop and search individuals under a range of legislation. Statistics have consistently shown that black people are disproportionately more likely to be subject to stop and searches.[16] In 2008/09 in England and Wales, more black people were stopped and searched under Section 1 of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act per head of population than any other ethnicity,[17] and black people were seven times more likely to be stopped and searched than white people.[18]
     

    In June 2010, through a Freedom of Information Act request, The Sunday Telegraph obtained statistics on accusations of crime broken down by race from the Metropolitan Police Service.[n 2] The figures showed that the majority of males who were accused of violent crimes in 2009–2010 were black. Of the recorded 18,091 such accusations against males, 54 percent accused of street crimes were black; for robbery, 58 percent; and for gun crimes, 67 percent.[27] Robbery, drug use, and gang violence have been associated with black people since the 1960s.[28] In the 1980s and 1990s, the police associated robbery with black people. In 1995, the Metropolitan Police commissioner Paul Condon said that the majority of robberies in London were committed by black people.[29]

     

    Street crimes include muggings, assault with intent to rob, and snatching property. Black males accounted for 29 percent of the male victims of gun crime and 24 percent of the male victims of knife crime.[27] Of sex offences, black men made up 32 per cent of male suspects. Similar statistics were recorded for females. Of knife crime, 45 percent of suspected female perpetrators were black; for gun crime, 58 percent; and of robberies, 52 percent.[30]
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_the_United_Kingdom
    , @Reg Cæsar

    Noticeable in the US is that the majority of ‘blacks’ seem to speak with a similar accent and vocabulary over vast stretches of this continental nation...

    Perhaps use of a common language contributes to racial integration.
     
    Or the other way around. The Southern drawl survived due to greater physical (vs hierarchical) segregation in northern cities.

    African immigrants' children don't pick up the accents of American blacks or the nearby whites. Like Asian and many Hispanic kids, they speak in a bland TV accent, i.e., "General American".

    Come to think of it, all those whiteboards moving to Brooklyn aren't encouraging their progeny to pick up the Kramden dialect, are they? The Patty Duke Show wasn't an anomaly.
    , @Art Deco
    Thomas Sowell contends that 70 years ago, blacks spoke with the accent of their environs, but that in the intervening years all blacks came to sound Southern.

    One thing you do notice is the gradual decline of regional vernacular. Among whites, the Southern accent is disappearing. In our families, no one born after about 1956 has a proper Southern accent, even if they've lived in the South their whole life. As for local variants of northern speech, they're difficult to pick out anymore unless they're highly distinctive, like the New York - New Jersey accent.

    Black speech in this country has long been distinguished not by accent, but by differences in vocal timbre and elocution, as well as the habit of switching back and forth between standard English and dialect. West Indians in this country sound entirely different than American-born blacks.
  34. @TGGP
    Maybe they have to use scare-quotes because Italians were always legally considered white in the U.S:
    https://entitledtoanopinion.wordpress.com/2013/02/24/pathetic-that-this-even-has-to-be-pointed-out/

    Spaniards were also always considered white, no matter how many of their crafty fair-skinned conquistador descendants (like Xochitl Hinojosa, that Anderson Cooper lookalike from Univision, author of “My Time Among the Whites” Jennine Capo Crucet, and Guillermo Del Toro) want to twist the facts to their advantage now. Thanks, Richard Nixon.

  35. I haven’t done the math but about 10 to 20 percent of my cousins on dna sites seem to have a small amount of African ancestry.

  36. @Jonathan Mason
    There is no black and white.

    It is just a convention of the English language that Europeans are described as "white" and people of visible African descent described as "black', regardless of the actual color of their skin or hair. This does not necessarily carry over into other languages.

    The convention of calling people with African heritage black is not even particularly old in the English language, but in modern times it has replaced the Spanish word 'negro' (which is the Spanish word for black, if anyone does not know) in the English language.

    Mosquito is the Spanish word for little fly (mosca = a regular size fly, mosquito = a little fly). Perhaps we will soon start calling them little flies.

    We are all on a continuum between albino and black, but what is more significant is whether people have grown up in a particular culture of a particular ethnicity.

    For example, there is no doubt that ghetto blacks who grow up in the United States often acquire a set of behaviors that are regarded as undesirable, and the same may apply in Haiti, but the behaviors may be quite different, as is the language.

    Noticeable in the US is that the majority of 'blacks' seem to speak with a similar accent and vocabulary over vast stretches of this continental nation, whereas 'blacks' in England mostly speak with regional and local accents of the areas where their families live. Perhaps use of a common language contributes to racial integration.

    "Your husband's been having an affair? Have a cuppa (tea)!"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57DeyUEY8xY

    Here she (Trish Chanda) talks about the divide in her family between generations over her not being able to speak Bemba, which is the language of her father’s tribe in Zambia.

    “African people are judgmental.”

    • LOL: fish
    • Replies: @SFG
    Pretty normal immigrant experience, though--after a few generations the original language just gets lost.
  37. @SFG
    I think the point is that whiteness is a social construct, so you're not born white, you are choosing to accept the evil heritage of whiteness.

    So if you have European ancestors it is incumbent upon you to reject your whiteness or something. (I doubt it would let you walk through the South Side of Chicago at 2 AM though.)

    The goal is to put a mental serfdom upon us; which has a better chance of succeeding than we’d expect.

    Should conservatives be thrown out of power in 2020, they will rebrand this white guilt as a new civic virtue. The “Conservative Case for Reparations”

    We see early signs of this emerging in the Washington Examiner, owned by “Woke Phil” Anschutz. They are hedging their bets.

  38. Putting scare quotes around “white” comes from a two-step process of reasoning:

    1. “Whiteness” is just a social construct, so “white people” don’t really exist — only people who think they’re white.

    2. You can’t exterminate people who don’t exist, so exterminating white people only means adjusting their attitudes.

    Not to go all Godwin’s Law, but imagine if the Nazis had thought of using that verbal trick about “Jews.” They would have said, “We’re not exterminating anyone, we’re only adjusting their attitudes.”

  39. @Jonathan Mason
    There is no black and white.

    It is just a convention of the English language that Europeans are described as "white" and people of visible African descent described as "black', regardless of the actual color of their skin or hair. This does not necessarily carry over into other languages.

    The convention of calling people with African heritage black is not even particularly old in the English language, but in modern times it has replaced the Spanish word 'negro' (which is the Spanish word for black, if anyone does not know) in the English language.

    Mosquito is the Spanish word for little fly (mosca = a regular size fly, mosquito = a little fly). Perhaps we will soon start calling them little flies.

    We are all on a continuum between albino and black, but what is more significant is whether people have grown up in a particular culture of a particular ethnicity.

    For example, there is no doubt that ghetto blacks who grow up in the United States often acquire a set of behaviors that are regarded as undesirable, and the same may apply in Haiti, but the behaviors may be quite different, as is the language.

    Noticeable in the US is that the majority of 'blacks' seem to speak with a similar accent and vocabulary over vast stretches of this continental nation, whereas 'blacks' in England mostly speak with regional and local accents of the areas where their families live. Perhaps use of a common language contributes to racial integration.

    "Your husband's been having an affair? Have a cuppa (tea)!"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57DeyUEY8xY

    Albinism is a genetic defect that can appear in any population and non-albinos are not on an “albinism/blackness” spectrum.

  40. @SFG
    I think the point is that whiteness is a social construct, so you're not born white, you are choosing to accept the evil heritage of whiteness.

    So if you have European ancestors it is incumbent upon you to reject your whiteness or something. (I doubt it would let you walk through the South Side of Chicago at 2 AM though.)

    But that would mean that we could escape the Original Sin of White Privilege. I don’t think we’re allowed to do that.

  41. @Jonathan Mason
    There is no black and white.

    It is just a convention of the English language that Europeans are described as "white" and people of visible African descent described as "black', regardless of the actual color of their skin or hair. This does not necessarily carry over into other languages.

    The convention of calling people with African heritage black is not even particularly old in the English language, but in modern times it has replaced the Spanish word 'negro' (which is the Spanish word for black, if anyone does not know) in the English language.

    Mosquito is the Spanish word for little fly (mosca = a regular size fly, mosquito = a little fly). Perhaps we will soon start calling them little flies.

    We are all on a continuum between albino and black, but what is more significant is whether people have grown up in a particular culture of a particular ethnicity.

    For example, there is no doubt that ghetto blacks who grow up in the United States often acquire a set of behaviors that are regarded as undesirable, and the same may apply in Haiti, but the behaviors may be quite different, as is the language.

    Noticeable in the US is that the majority of 'blacks' seem to speak with a similar accent and vocabulary over vast stretches of this continental nation, whereas 'blacks' in England mostly speak with regional and local accents of the areas where their families live. Perhaps use of a common language contributes to racial integration.

    "Your husband's been having an affair? Have a cuppa (tea)!"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57DeyUEY8xY

    And the N-word derives from the Dutch word for black.

    • Replies: @Kolya Krassotkin
    It goes back further than that.

    "Niger" is the latin word for black and, classically, is pronounced with a hard "g".
  42. @Jonathan Mason
    There is no black and white.

    It is just a convention of the English language that Europeans are described as "white" and people of visible African descent described as "black', regardless of the actual color of their skin or hair. This does not necessarily carry over into other languages.

    The convention of calling people with African heritage black is not even particularly old in the English language, but in modern times it has replaced the Spanish word 'negro' (which is the Spanish word for black, if anyone does not know) in the English language.

    Mosquito is the Spanish word for little fly (mosca = a regular size fly, mosquito = a little fly). Perhaps we will soon start calling them little flies.

    We are all on a continuum between albino and black, but what is more significant is whether people have grown up in a particular culture of a particular ethnicity.

    For example, there is no doubt that ghetto blacks who grow up in the United States often acquire a set of behaviors that are regarded as undesirable, and the same may apply in Haiti, but the behaviors may be quite different, as is the language.

    Noticeable in the US is that the majority of 'blacks' seem to speak with a similar accent and vocabulary over vast stretches of this continental nation, whereas 'blacks' in England mostly speak with regional and local accents of the areas where their families live. Perhaps use of a common language contributes to racial integration.

    "Your husband's been having an affair? Have a cuppa (tea)!"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57DeyUEY8xY

    Had my boys at a playground and heard a black mother telling her daughter that “ain’t” isn’t a word. Hadn’t heard that one since I was a kid growing up among recovering hillbillies.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Were all on a spectrum of alive to dead. Very useful stuff.
  43. The mid-20th Century push to make deracination normative is in its death throes. Wokeness honors it in the breach while keeping up appearances of doing the opposite.

    • Agree: bomag
  44. @Jonathan Mason
    Here she (Trish Chanda) talks about the divide in her family between generations over her not being able to speak Bemba, which is the language of her father's tribe in Zambia.

    "African people are judgmental."

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ir3D5PtX6E

    Pretty normal immigrant experience, though–after a few generations the original language just gets lost.

    • Replies: @nebulafox
    Depends on the country. Ethnic Chinese in Thailand are all monolingual in Thai, whereas it isn't hard to find Chinese in Malaysia who speak only basic Malay, when they do at all.

    But the United States, that's pretty much always been the case. Some ethnic groups lost their language faster than others, but everybody ended up defaulting to English with time. Not necessarily against their will, either: as Ron as noted, some of the most fanatical resistance to dual language education in 1990s California came from Spanish-speaking immigrant parents. They did not want their kids to be condemned to the same lives of menial labor that they were just so bien-pensants could feel good about themselves.

    Re-that article: a few vodka shots, and it'd be a funny experience. Without them, it's just ridiculous.

    , @Jonathan Mason

    Pretty normal immigrant experience, though–after a few generations the original language just gets lost.
     
    I think so. A friend of mine, now about 50 years of age, was born in the US of Portuguese immigrants and never learned to speak Portuguese, although it was the first language of his parents.

    His grandfather came to the US and lives in Jacksonville and has never learned to speak English--so grandson and grandfather do not have a common language. The grandfather met and courted a woman in the US, and married her, without sharing a common language with her, and they have been happy together for years.

    And even if you know the language as a child, you ca very easily forget it.

    My step daughter spoke Spanish as her first language and attended school for 3 years in a Spanish speaking school before she came to the US, and learned to read and write in Spanish. Within 18 months she had forgotten ALL of her Spanish and was fluent in English (thanks to Peppa Pig) even though my wife and I often speak in Spanish at home. It is all about the peer group.
  45. Hey!!

    Columbus was a black man!

    • Agree: YetAnotherAnon
  46. As the saying goes, “If God didn’t exist, it would be necessary to invent one.” Well, same applies to a black genius. That’s why we have the MacArthur “genius” grants.

  47. @SFG
    Pretty normal immigrant experience, though--after a few generations the original language just gets lost.

    Depends on the country. Ethnic Chinese in Thailand are all monolingual in Thai, whereas it isn’t hard to find Chinese in Malaysia who speak only basic Malay, when they do at all.

    But the United States, that’s pretty much always been the case. Some ethnic groups lost their language faster than others, but everybody ended up defaulting to English with time. Not necessarily against their will, either: as Ron as noted, some of the most fanatical resistance to dual language education in 1990s California came from Spanish-speaking immigrant parents. They did not want their kids to be condemned to the same lives of menial labor that they were just so bien-pensants could feel good about themselves.

    Re-that article: a few vodka shots, and it’d be a funny experience. Without them, it’s just ridiculous.

    • Replies: @Ray Huffman
    some of the most fanatical resistance to dual language education in 1990s California came from Spanish-speaking immigrant parents.

    Jaime Escalante was among these. Seriously.
  48. @Jonathan Mason
    There is no black and white.

    It is just a convention of the English language that Europeans are described as "white" and people of visible African descent described as "black', regardless of the actual color of their skin or hair. This does not necessarily carry over into other languages.

    The convention of calling people with African heritage black is not even particularly old in the English language, but in modern times it has replaced the Spanish word 'negro' (which is the Spanish word for black, if anyone does not know) in the English language.

    Mosquito is the Spanish word for little fly (mosca = a regular size fly, mosquito = a little fly). Perhaps we will soon start calling them little flies.

    We are all on a continuum between albino and black, but what is more significant is whether people have grown up in a particular culture of a particular ethnicity.

    For example, there is no doubt that ghetto blacks who grow up in the United States often acquire a set of behaviors that are regarded as undesirable, and the same may apply in Haiti, but the behaviors may be quite different, as is the language.

    Noticeable in the US is that the majority of 'blacks' seem to speak with a similar accent and vocabulary over vast stretches of this continental nation, whereas 'blacks' in England mostly speak with regional and local accents of the areas where their families live. Perhaps use of a common language contributes to racial integration.

    "Your husband's been having an affair? Have a cuppa (tea)!"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57DeyUEY8xY

    ‘…Noticeable in the US is that the majority of ‘blacks’ seem to speak with a similar accent and vocabulary over vast stretches of this continental nation…’

    My suspicion is that that black accent is what resulted when negroes started speaking the English of their southern white masters. It’s a southern accent processed by those big negro lips.

    …just a theory.

  49. @Jonathan Mason
    There is no black and white.

    It is just a convention of the English language that Europeans are described as "white" and people of visible African descent described as "black', regardless of the actual color of their skin or hair. This does not necessarily carry over into other languages.

    The convention of calling people with African heritage black is not even particularly old in the English language, but in modern times it has replaced the Spanish word 'negro' (which is the Spanish word for black, if anyone does not know) in the English language.

    Mosquito is the Spanish word for little fly (mosca = a regular size fly, mosquito = a little fly). Perhaps we will soon start calling them little flies.

    We are all on a continuum between albino and black, but what is more significant is whether people have grown up in a particular culture of a particular ethnicity.

    For example, there is no doubt that ghetto blacks who grow up in the United States often acquire a set of behaviors that are regarded as undesirable, and the same may apply in Haiti, but the behaviors may be quite different, as is the language.

    Noticeable in the US is that the majority of 'blacks' seem to speak with a similar accent and vocabulary over vast stretches of this continental nation, whereas 'blacks' in England mostly speak with regional and local accents of the areas where their families live. Perhaps use of a common language contributes to racial integration.

    "Your husband's been having an affair? Have a cuppa (tea)!"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57DeyUEY8xY

    There’s a distinctive black accent in the UK, the idea that they mostly speak with regional British accents is not true for the most part. In fact I have a hard time imagining a black person speaking with Yorkshire accent and slang, sounds very unlikely to me.

    • Replies: @Jonathan Mason

    There’s a distinctive black accent in the UK, the idea that they mostly speak with regional British accents is not true for the most part. In fact I have a hard time imagining a black person speaking with Yorkshire accent and slang, sounds very unlikely to me.

     

    See the video I posted above for black Yorkshire. Also, I should add, there are numerous Pakistanis in Bradford and Keighley who speak with broad Yorkshire accents.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NC14qeIc1r8

    And is this not typical of a London-born footballer?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gqev5NrWnvM
  50. Had the daughter ‘axed’ her if ain’t was a real word?

  51. @Jonathan Mason
    There is no black and white.

    It is just a convention of the English language that Europeans are described as "white" and people of visible African descent described as "black', regardless of the actual color of their skin or hair. This does not necessarily carry over into other languages.

    The convention of calling people with African heritage black is not even particularly old in the English language, but in modern times it has replaced the Spanish word 'negro' (which is the Spanish word for black, if anyone does not know) in the English language.

    Mosquito is the Spanish word for little fly (mosca = a regular size fly, mosquito = a little fly). Perhaps we will soon start calling them little flies.

    We are all on a continuum between albino and black, but what is more significant is whether people have grown up in a particular culture of a particular ethnicity.

    For example, there is no doubt that ghetto blacks who grow up in the United States often acquire a set of behaviors that are regarded as undesirable, and the same may apply in Haiti, but the behaviors may be quite different, as is the language.

    Noticeable in the US is that the majority of 'blacks' seem to speak with a similar accent and vocabulary over vast stretches of this continental nation, whereas 'blacks' in England mostly speak with regional and local accents of the areas where their families live. Perhaps use of a common language contributes to racial integration.

    "Your husband's been having an affair? Have a cuppa (tea)!"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57DeyUEY8xY

    Perhaps use of a common language contributes to racial integration.

    Enjoy your forced ‘enrichment’then.

  52. A black body is a object that gives off or absorbs thermal electromagnetic radiation. Apologies to Gustav Kirchhoff.

    Science knowledge by race and sex, by Audacious Epigone
    http://www.unz.com/anepigone/science-knowledge-by-race-and-sex/

    Most so-called leaders of ‘Black’ America past and present like W. E. B. Du Bois, Rosa Parks, Jesse Jackson and Kamala Harris would be classified as ‘colored’ or to be politically correct mixed race in other former British colonies.

  53. Anonymous[337] • Disclaimer says:
    @Jonathan Mason
    There is no black and white.

    It is just a convention of the English language that Europeans are described as "white" and people of visible African descent described as "black', regardless of the actual color of their skin or hair. This does not necessarily carry over into other languages.

    The convention of calling people with African heritage black is not even particularly old in the English language, but in modern times it has replaced the Spanish word 'negro' (which is the Spanish word for black, if anyone does not know) in the English language.

    Mosquito is the Spanish word for little fly (mosca = a regular size fly, mosquito = a little fly). Perhaps we will soon start calling them little flies.

    We are all on a continuum between albino and black, but what is more significant is whether people have grown up in a particular culture of a particular ethnicity.

    For example, there is no doubt that ghetto blacks who grow up in the United States often acquire a set of behaviors that are regarded as undesirable, and the same may apply in Haiti, but the behaviors may be quite different, as is the language.

    Noticeable in the US is that the majority of 'blacks' seem to speak with a similar accent and vocabulary over vast stretches of this continental nation, whereas 'blacks' in England mostly speak with regional and local accents of the areas where their families live. Perhaps use of a common language contributes to racial integration.

    "Your husband's been having an affair? Have a cuppa (tea)!"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57DeyUEY8xY

    Absurd relativisim. White actually meant white historically. Europeans, that is those not descended from the Atlantic Islands peoples, were viewed as notably darker skinned on average and not the sort of white translucency you see in Britain Ireland.

    There was none of this farcical , ” culture ”

    That word didnt exist. ( root: Agriculture )

    Wearing odd hats and eating tacos is not “culture” which meant Arts, Literature, politics little p.

    Mimicking linguistic norms has nothing to do with genetic adaptations.

  54. @Desiderius
    Had my boys at a playground and heard a black mother telling her daughter that “ain’t” isn’t a word. Hadn’t heard that one since I was a kid growing up among recovering hillbillies.

    Were all on a spectrum of alive to dead. Very useful stuff.

  55. @Jonathan Mason
    There is no black and white.

    It is just a convention of the English language that Europeans are described as "white" and people of visible African descent described as "black', regardless of the actual color of their skin or hair. This does not necessarily carry over into other languages.

    The convention of calling people with African heritage black is not even particularly old in the English language, but in modern times it has replaced the Spanish word 'negro' (which is the Spanish word for black, if anyone does not know) in the English language.

    Mosquito is the Spanish word for little fly (mosca = a regular size fly, mosquito = a little fly). Perhaps we will soon start calling them little flies.

    We are all on a continuum between albino and black, but what is more significant is whether people have grown up in a particular culture of a particular ethnicity.

    For example, there is no doubt that ghetto blacks who grow up in the United States often acquire a set of behaviors that are regarded as undesirable, and the same may apply in Haiti, but the behaviors may be quite different, as is the language.

    Noticeable in the US is that the majority of 'blacks' seem to speak with a similar accent and vocabulary over vast stretches of this continental nation, whereas 'blacks' in England mostly speak with regional and local accents of the areas where their families live. Perhaps use of a common language contributes to racial integration.

    "Your husband's been having an affair? Have a cuppa (tea)!"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57DeyUEY8xY

    I have had well-educated professionally successful black people tell me they needed to “axe” me something.

    • Replies: @Jonathan Mason

    I have had well-educated professionally successful black people tell me they needed to “axe” me something.
     
    Axe is actually an archaic form of the word 'ask', which was originally written 'aks'. It has survived in parts of western England and in Caribbean dialects. Some people may find the aks version easier to pronounce.

    https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/people-have-been-saying-ax-instead-ask-1200-years-180949663/

    People Have Been Saying “Ax” Instead of “Ask” for 1,200 Years
    “Ax” for “ask” isn’t wrong, it’s just different
  56. @Jonathan Mason
    There is no black and white.

    It is just a convention of the English language that Europeans are described as "white" and people of visible African descent described as "black', regardless of the actual color of their skin or hair. This does not necessarily carry over into other languages.

    The convention of calling people with African heritage black is not even particularly old in the English language, but in modern times it has replaced the Spanish word 'negro' (which is the Spanish word for black, if anyone does not know) in the English language.

    Mosquito is the Spanish word for little fly (mosca = a regular size fly, mosquito = a little fly). Perhaps we will soon start calling them little flies.

    We are all on a continuum between albino and black, but what is more significant is whether people have grown up in a particular culture of a particular ethnicity.

    For example, there is no doubt that ghetto blacks who grow up in the United States often acquire a set of behaviors that are regarded as undesirable, and the same may apply in Haiti, but the behaviors may be quite different, as is the language.

    Noticeable in the US is that the majority of 'blacks' seem to speak with a similar accent and vocabulary over vast stretches of this continental nation, whereas 'blacks' in England mostly speak with regional and local accents of the areas where their families live. Perhaps use of a common language contributes to racial integration.

    "Your husband's been having an affair? Have a cuppa (tea)!"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57DeyUEY8xY

    I think you’re missing something here. All the world over, there is an underlying black speech intonation whether they are speaking colloquial English, French, Spanish, German, etc. Everyone can tell when a speaker is black, with a few outliers.

    For that matter, I can tell the difference in speech between a Northern, urban black and a Low Country, rural black. But the underlying black intonation is still there. They will still sound different from Northern, urban whites and Low Country, rural whites.

    Is this racial/sub-racial intonation neurological, physiological or what? I don’t know, and I don’t think there is any research at all on the topic. Linguistics is one of those academic disciplines, like evolutionary biology, with these “here be dragons” areas that nobody dares to explore.

    • Replies: @Heynonny
    I started noticing a particular East Asian intonation as well, albeit a subtle one, when I went to a college with oodles of them. And it's the sound of how their voices resonate or something - not an accent. Sometimes I can guess at it while listening to NPR, too.
    , @Malcolm X-Lax
    Reminded me of this paragraph from an old Christopher Hitchens essay on Ebonics.

    https://books.google.com/books?id=Dt8lTI6Q4h0C&pg=PA289&lpg=PA289&dq=hitchens+johnnie+cochran+black+voice&source=bl&ots=JVIzXMrmCa&sig=ACfU3U14JGlzdMTvncjVG_oHqfmtERBMxg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjTgrOnoZrlAhWVv54KHdRODGgQ6AEwH3oECB8QAQ#v=onepage&q=hitchens%20johnnie%20cochran%20black%20voice&f=false

  57. @Hail
    The URL is funny; is it the original article title?

    /10/12/opinion/columbus-day-italian-american-racism.html
     
    "How to Win Friends and Influence People by Hectoring them for Being Racist," forthcoming book by Brent Staples, New York Times Editorial Board Member.

    Good observation about the URL, but based on the article subtitle (? text above the title) “Vicious bigotry, reluctant acceptance: an American story” and body text I think “racism” in the URL meant against Italian Americans, not by them.

    The oldest archive link I see has the same article title:
    https://web.archive.org/web/20191012143024/https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/10/12/opinion/columbus-day-italian-american-racism.html

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    They try so hard to make mass immigration and the massive problems and divisions it’s causing seem normal. ‘Twas always so’...It’s just business as usual, trust us. People absolutely hated Italians too, but everything always works out in the end! We’ll all look back in 30-years and laugh at how silly it all was to be at all concerned. A wonderful future awaits, just pipe down and stop being a racist worry wart.
  58. @SFG
    I think the point is that whiteness is a social construct, so you're not born white, you are choosing to accept the evil heritage of whiteness.

    So if you have European ancestors it is incumbent upon you to reject your whiteness or something. (I doubt it would let you walk through the South Side of Chicago at 2 AM though.)

    Cognitive dissonance.

    Race is a social construct but IQ differences are real. Which is it?

    • Replies: @SFG
    Those people don't believe in IQ differences, so there's no dissonance.

    Me? I think the exact lines you draw are a social construct, but there are actual differences between groups, so no dissonance.
  59. it’s the reverse one-percent rule. that dont need even to be back up facts

    the main reason for this is that the less people consider themselves white, the lesser the amount of people that favor a white majority.

  60. • Replies: @White Guy In Japan
    I read that as "Khaya Shithole".

    Damn, I'm racist.
    , @Harry Baldwin
    KZN councillor Khaya Sithole was gunned down in full view of his constituents.

    That kind of stuff happens all the time in those sithole countries.
  61. @Jonathan Mason
    There is no black and white.

    It is just a convention of the English language that Europeans are described as "white" and people of visible African descent described as "black', regardless of the actual color of their skin or hair. This does not necessarily carry over into other languages.

    The convention of calling people with African heritage black is not even particularly old in the English language, but in modern times it has replaced the Spanish word 'negro' (which is the Spanish word for black, if anyone does not know) in the English language.

    Mosquito is the Spanish word for little fly (mosca = a regular size fly, mosquito = a little fly). Perhaps we will soon start calling them little flies.

    We are all on a continuum between albino and black, but what is more significant is whether people have grown up in a particular culture of a particular ethnicity.

    For example, there is no doubt that ghetto blacks who grow up in the United States often acquire a set of behaviors that are regarded as undesirable, and the same may apply in Haiti, but the behaviors may be quite different, as is the language.

    Noticeable in the US is that the majority of 'blacks' seem to speak with a similar accent and vocabulary over vast stretches of this continental nation, whereas 'blacks' in England mostly speak with regional and local accents of the areas where their families live. Perhaps use of a common language contributes to racial integration.

    "Your husband's been having an affair? Have a cuppa (tea)!"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57DeyUEY8xY

    Noticeable in the US is that the majority of ‘blacks’ seem to speak with a similar accent

    I’ve noticed a change actually. The old Deep South accent seems to be giving way to something else. Especially among black women. Listen to Ayanna Pressley, for example. But it’s not just college-educated blacks; you can hear the new accent from the untalented 9/10ths too.

    • Replies: @Twodees Partain
    It's giving way to the TV accent, which is a sort of modified midwestern accent. The deep south is, or was, home to a few dozen dialects. Those are disappearing.
    , @Jack D
    Somewhere I read that among working class whites, regional accents are actually getting stronger as a form of group solidarity - the Philly accent seems to be in no danger of disappearing from what I hear and the local whites don't sound like Midwestern TV announcers. (Most Americans don't even know what a Philly accent sounds like - it's nothing like NY, for example it is rhotic (r's are pronounced). Water is not whawda, it's wooder) Whereas ghetto blacks identify with their fellow ghetto blacks everywhere so there is a sort of national ghetto accent.
  62. @SFG
    Pretty normal immigrant experience, though--after a few generations the original language just gets lost.

    Pretty normal immigrant experience, though–after a few generations the original language just gets lost.

    I think so. A friend of mine, now about 50 years of age, was born in the US of Portuguese immigrants and never learned to speak Portuguese, although it was the first language of his parents.

    His grandfather came to the US and lives in Jacksonville and has never learned to speak English–so grandson and grandfather do not have a common language. The grandfather met and courted a woman in the US, and married her, without sharing a common language with her, and they have been happy together for years.

    And even if you know the language as a child, you ca very easily forget it.

    My step daughter spoke Spanish as her first language and attended school for 3 years in a Spanish speaking school before she came to the US, and learned to read and write in Spanish. Within 18 months she had forgotten ALL of her Spanish and was fluent in English (thanks to Peppa Pig) even though my wife and I often speak in Spanish at home. It is all about the peer group.

  63. @TGGP
    Maybe they have to use scare-quotes because Italians were always legally considered white in the U.S:
    https://entitledtoanopinion.wordpress.com/2013/02/24/pathetic-that-this-even-has-to-be-pointed-out/

    How far back does this stupid idea go? I first remember seeing it about the time of the blog post you linked to, in the early days of Obama’s second term. The Tuskegee Institute updated their lynching map in an attempt to make people think Italian anarchists and Spanish cattle rustlers and horse thieves were victims of white supremacy just in the last couple of years. From what I can tell, they aren’t making much progress with the public in getting this idea accepted.

  64. @Jonathan Mason
    There is no black and white.

    It is just a convention of the English language that Europeans are described as "white" and people of visible African descent described as "black', regardless of the actual color of their skin or hair. This does not necessarily carry over into other languages.

    The convention of calling people with African heritage black is not even particularly old in the English language, but in modern times it has replaced the Spanish word 'negro' (which is the Spanish word for black, if anyone does not know) in the English language.

    Mosquito is the Spanish word for little fly (mosca = a regular size fly, mosquito = a little fly). Perhaps we will soon start calling them little flies.

    We are all on a continuum between albino and black, but what is more significant is whether people have grown up in a particular culture of a particular ethnicity.

    For example, there is no doubt that ghetto blacks who grow up in the United States often acquire a set of behaviors that are regarded as undesirable, and the same may apply in Haiti, but the behaviors may be quite different, as is the language.

    Noticeable in the US is that the majority of 'blacks' seem to speak with a similar accent and vocabulary over vast stretches of this continental nation, whereas 'blacks' in England mostly speak with regional and local accents of the areas where their families live. Perhaps use of a common language contributes to racial integration.

    "Your husband's been having an affair? Have a cuppa (tea)!"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57DeyUEY8xY

    We are all on a continuum between albino and black, but what is more significant is whether people have grown up in a particular culture of a particular ethnicity.

    Excellent parody.After all, as we all know, complexion alone does not determine race:

    as compared to

    For example, there is no doubt that ghetto blacks who grow up in the United States often acquire a set of behaviors that are regarded as undesirable, and the same may apply in Haiti, but the behaviors may be quite different, as is the language.

    Lotsa overlap there. Common Sub-Saharan African cultural inheritance. Low IQs.

    Noticeable in the US is that the majority of ‘blacks’ seem to speak with a similar accent and vocabulary over vast stretches of this continental nation, whereas ‘blacks’ in England mostly speak with regional and local accents of the areas where their families live. Perhaps use of a common language contributes to racial integration.

    Blacks are only recently arrived in the UK (the overwhelming majority are descended from people who arrived post-’45). Plus, their numbers are, by American standards, quite low (according to the 2011 census, the UK is 3.01% Black). Blacks in the USA, in contrast, are a long-settled population, with most tracing their ancestry to people who arrived prior to 1810. Blacks in the USA are also far more numerous (12.7% of the population).Those factors have allowed Blacks in the USA to preserve SSA cultural practices to a greater degree than their UK cousins.

    Of course Blacks, in the UK are not exactly perfect Britons….

    Police officers have the power to stop and search individuals under a range of legislation. Statistics have consistently shown that black people are disproportionately more likely to be subject to stop and searches.[16] In 2008/09 in England and Wales, more black people were stopped and searched under Section 1 of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act per head of population than any other ethnicity,[17] and black people were seven times more likely to be stopped and searched than white people.[18]

    In June 2010, through a Freedom of Information Act request, The Sunday Telegraph obtained statistics on accusations of crime broken down by race from the Metropolitan Police Service.[n 2] The figures showed that the majority of males who were accused of violent crimes in 2009–2010 were black. Of the recorded 18,091 such accusations against males, 54 percent accused of street crimes were black; for robbery, 58 percent; and for gun crimes, 67 percent.[27] Robbery, drug use, and gang violence have been associated with black people since the 1960s.[28] In the 1980s and 1990s, the police associated robbery with black people. In 1995, the Metropolitan Police commissioner Paul Condon said that the majority of robberies in London were committed by black people.[29]

    Street crimes include muggings, assault with intent to rob, and snatching property. Black males accounted for 29 percent of the male victims of gun crime and 24 percent of the male victims of knife crime.[27] Of sex offences, black men made up 32 per cent of male suspects. Similar statistics were recorded for females. Of knife crime, 45 percent of suspected female perpetrators were black; for gun crime, 58 percent; and of robberies, 52 percent.[30]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_the_United_Kingdom

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    If guns are outlawed, only blacks will have guns?
  65. Well, if you don’t demonize white people pretty soon you will have more of them!

  66. I first noticed this trend with Ta-Nehisi Coates’ hilarious bestseller in 2015, where blacks are “black bodies” and whites are “people who think that they are white.”

    And Coates is one of those “people who think that they are smart”.

    As for how the Italians (or fill in the blank with any other European group) became White nonsense, it is clearly being promoted to divide any potential White voting bloc that sees common areas of interest among peoples of European descent.

    What is interesting is that in another America, European peoples where encouraged to give up their identities and become assimilated into the existing American culture. Thus over time we lost our distinctiveness and became closer to being one people. I actually think that is something to be proud of. We came from Europe and we had at one time prejudices against others from the continent based upon various cultural differences and wars among ourselves. Yet in America we eventually became one group. America basically took various Europeans who had a history of conflict among one another and eventually molded them together.

    That was then this is now. Today the White population must not think of themselves as a group with group interests because it might interfere with the plans of the nation wreckers. So while we are importing our replacement voters, we need to ensure Whites don’t rally to their defense. Hence, we need to make sure anyone of Italian, Irish, etc. decent knows that his ancestors were not accepted the moment they got off the boat. Thus, any Italian, Irish, etc, would know that voting for the anti-White democrat party must be in their best interest.

    I would hope Whites don’t fall for this, but I am sure many will since it gives some a chance to claim victim status and victim status seems to be in the rage.

    But I wish people of European heritage would read this.

    Whether they are a Serb and a Swiss, or a Finn and a Frenchman, any two Europeans are likely to have many common ancestors who lived around 1,000 years ago. A genomic survey of 2,257 people from 40 populations finds that people of European ancestry are more closely related to one another than previously thought, and could help to bring about new insights into European history.

    PS. I would hope that any American of Italian, Irish, etc. ethnicity, who is thinking that they too are not White and thus have no common interests with other Europeans, would look to their ancestral home in Europe and see what is happening. Their cousins and distant relatives back home are being replaced too. It matters not that the “Italians were not White”, they are being replaced just the same. It matters not that the “Irish were not White”, they are set to become a minority in Ireland in 50 years.

    We are all in the same boat together. Whether in North America, Europe or Oz. In fact now more than ever is the time for all Europeans to think of themselves as one group since all of us are being targeted for replacement. If anything Whites worldwide should become a solid block concerned for our collective futures.

    PPS. These people who push the “When so and so group became White” never seem to account for the fact that the US naturalized those groups when the law at the time only approved the naturalization of Whites.

    • Agree: Dtbb
    • Replies: @Anon

    As for how the Italians (or fill in the blank with any other European group) became White nonsense, it is clearly being promoted to divide any potential White voting bloc that sees common areas of interest among peoples of European descent.
     
    I think this is true, but there are two types of historical revisionism on this issue.

    One is from the Left, which you describe. The other is from the Right which tries to obscure the historical self-perceptions and identity that the founding stock population held in the past. Traditionally, the founding stock had to varying degrees a Protestant, British, or Northern European -centric and chauvinistic self-perception and identity, and "white" had this more chauvinistic connotation where Northern European was the standard.

    Henry Cabot Lodge's views reflect this more particularistic and chauvinistic view that was predominant:

    "The Restriction Of Immigration by Henry Cabot Lodge
    Speech in the Senate, March 16, 1896"

    https://www.nationalists.org/library/america/henry-lodge-speech-1896.html

    It is found, in the first place, that the illiteracy test will bear most heavily upon the Italians, Russians, Poles, Hungarians, Greeks, and Asiatics, and very lightly, or not at all, upon English-speaking emigrants, or Germans, Scandinavians, and French.

    In other words, the races most affected by the illiteracy test are those whose emigration to this country has begun within the last twenty years and swelled rapidly to enormous proportions, races with which the English-speaking people have never hitherto assimilated, and who are most alien to the great body of the people of the United States.

    On the other hand, immigrants from the United Kingdom and of those races which are most closely related to the English-speaking people, and who with the English-speaking people themselves founded the American colonies and built up the United States, are affected but little by the proposed test. These races would not be prevented by this law from coming to this country in practically undiminished numbers...

    During this century, down to 1875, then, as in the two which preceded it, there had been scarcely any immigration to this country except from kindred or allied races, and no other which was sufficiently numerous to have produced any effect on the national characteristics, or to be taken into account here.

    Since 1875, however, there has been a great change. While the people who for two hundred and fifty years have been migrating to America have continued to furnish large numbers of immigrants to the United States, other races of totally different race origin, with whom the English-speaking people have never hitherto been assimilated or brought in contact, have suddenly begun to immigrate to the United States in large numbers. Russians, Hungarians, Poles, Bohemians, Italians, Greeks, and even Asiatics, whose immigration to America was almost unknown twenty years ago, have during the last twenty years poured in in steadily increasing numbers, until now they nearly equal the immigration of those races kindred in blood or speech, or both, by whom the United States has hitherto been built up and the American people formed.

    This momentous fact is the one which confronts us to-day, and if continued, it carries with it future consequences far deeper than any other event of our times. It involves, in a word, nothing less than the possibility of a great and perilous change in the very fabric of our race.
     
  67. @TGGP
    Maybe they have to use scare-quotes because Italians were always legally considered white in the U.S:
    https://entitledtoanopinion.wordpress.com/2013/02/24/pathetic-that-this-even-has-to-be-pointed-out/

    Maybe they have to use scare-quotes because Italians were always legally considered white in the U.S:

    Indeed. All this talk about how “X” (Irish, Italians, Poles, Jews, etc) became White is utter bilge.

    William B. Taliaferro seems to have done pretty well for himself…..

    William Booth Taliaferro ( /ˈtɒlɪvər/ TOL-i-vər; December 28, 1822 – February 27, 1898), was a United States Army officer, a lawyer, legislator, Confederate general in the American Civil War, and Grand Master of Masons in Virginia.

    William Booth Taliaferro was born in Gloucester County, Virginia, to an Anglo-Italian family, the Taliaferros, who had settled in Virginia in the early 17th century from London. He was the son of Francis Amanda Todd (Booth) and Warner Throckmorton Taliaferro,[1] and the nephew of James A. Seddon, who would become Secretary of War for the Confederate States of America under Jefferson Davis.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_B._Taliaferro

  68. @Jonathan Mason
    There is no black and white.

    It is just a convention of the English language that Europeans are described as "white" and people of visible African descent described as "black', regardless of the actual color of their skin or hair. This does not necessarily carry over into other languages.

    The convention of calling people with African heritage black is not even particularly old in the English language, but in modern times it has replaced the Spanish word 'negro' (which is the Spanish word for black, if anyone does not know) in the English language.

    Mosquito is the Spanish word for little fly (mosca = a regular size fly, mosquito = a little fly). Perhaps we will soon start calling them little flies.

    We are all on a continuum between albino and black, but what is more significant is whether people have grown up in a particular culture of a particular ethnicity.

    For example, there is no doubt that ghetto blacks who grow up in the United States often acquire a set of behaviors that are regarded as undesirable, and the same may apply in Haiti, but the behaviors may be quite different, as is the language.

    Noticeable in the US is that the majority of 'blacks' seem to speak with a similar accent and vocabulary over vast stretches of this continental nation, whereas 'blacks' in England mostly speak with regional and local accents of the areas where their families live. Perhaps use of a common language contributes to racial integration.

    "Your husband's been having an affair? Have a cuppa (tea)!"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57DeyUEY8xY

    Noticeable in the US is that the majority of ‘blacks’ seem to speak with a similar accent and vocabulary over vast stretches of this continental nation…

    Perhaps use of a common language contributes to racial integration.

    Or the other way around. The Southern drawl survived due to greater physical (vs hierarchical) segregation in northern cities.

    African immigrants’ children don’t pick up the accents of American blacks or the nearby whites. Like Asian and many Hispanic kids, they speak in a bland TV accent, i.e., “General American”.

    Come to think of it, all those whiteboards moving to Brooklyn aren’t encouraging their progeny to pick up the Kramden dialect, are they? The Patty Duke Show wasn’t an anomaly.

  69. How Italians Became ‘White’

    Some people are taking the term guinea a little too literally.

    By Brent Staples

    The social-climbing Staples family changed their name from the original. He would have been Brent Officemax otherwise.

  70. • Replies: @nebulafox
    If the NYT believes that white liberals are the only ones more aware they are white in an age where the words "white" and "whiteness" is used 24/7 by the MSM in a consistently pejorative sense, I have a bridge in Brooklyn I'd like to sell them.

    They keep thinking that white people will, on the whole, be more aware that they are white and simultaneously not think of themselves as an ethno-racial political bloc with interests of their own. That's just not going to happen. White supremacism is unlikely to take off, contra liberal nightmares (hopes?), but "identity politics for him, but not for him" is a fantasy in any multiracial society at the best of times, which these decidedly aren't.

  71. Italians were traditionally white. The NYT is twisting history to bolster certain political points, but it’s not true.

    Think of every famous Italian figure from history: people like Leonardo DaVinci, Dante Alighieri, Marco Polo, Christopher Columbus, or even go back to Roman times with Julius Caesar. Those people have always been considered white. It wasn’t the case as the NYT suggests that those famous Italians used to be perceived as not-white and then the perception changed. Those Italians were always viewed as white.

    There were some dark skinned Italians from ~1900, and the NYT is featuring their photos, but most Italians were white and the Italian identity was widely perceived as white.

    Sure, in the US, there was bigotry towards Italians, and them vs us mentality, and political pressure to lower Italian immigration, and the aggressive expectation that Italians drop their distinct language and identity and assimilate, outside of food service, where Americans often wanted an exotic experience. But that group animosity towards Italians wasn’t based on whiteness vs non-whiteness. And the NYT is trying to fabricate that for political reasons.

    • Replies: @Days of Broken Arrows
    Agreed. And as an Italian-American, I also can tell you the breakdown between Northern Italians and Sicilians meant less to outsiders than it did to Italians themselves.

    The bigotry Italians experienced in America was similar to that of the Irish. Both were outsiders who experienced prejudice early on (which reverberated into the '70s in a muted form), but both assimilated pretty quickly, as these things go.

    Neither group tends to fixate on hardships that happened 70-100 years ago, either. It's telling that a non-Italian-American wrote this article for the Times. Maybe they couldn't find any of us who cared enough anymore to write it.

    I also find it telling that for all the criticism Nancy Pelosi and Rudy Giuliani, take Italian bigotry doesn't seem to be in the mix.

    , @Paleo Liberal
    Some of the objections to Italians, Irish and Jews etc were:

    1. They were not Protestants. There was certainly a bit of hostility between Catholics and Protestants, and between Christians and Jews. The Pope was a very powerful figure in the world, and many Americans thought the Catholic Church to be undemocratic.

    2. Many Southern and Eastern European cultures were low trust cultures. The idea of caveat emptor was antithetical to the idea of treating the customers well to get repeat business.

    3. Criminal gangs.

    4. Strange European ideas such as Anarchism and Marxism, often accompanied by violence.

    5. They were different people who often spoke strange languages.

    Note that I use the term strange to mean unfamiliar.
  72. So it turns out that broken windows is again proven right! Leftist urban government’s experiment to prove broken windows is a success! You can stop at any time, guys …

    A Portland antifascist activist was killed in the early hours of Saturday in an apparent hit-and-run

    [These are the geniuses standing in the middle of the street and attacking cars. The police and city hall allow them to do this.]

    near Cider Riot, a cidery and taproom popular with the city’s anarchist left that has been the scene of conflict with rightwing groups.
    According to the Portland Police Bureau, the car involved was fired upon and crashed into a nearby building. Its occupants fled the scene.

    http://archive.today/SiHmN

    • Replies: @Jack D
    Rose City Antifa said in a tweet that Kealiher’s death “was not related to fascist activity.”

    I assume that this means that it was some kind of internal dispute among antifa.

    I'm not sure that the cops give antifa carte blanche to attack cars, even in Portland.
  73. Something I have pointed out before—

    Supposedly among the very top black intellectuals, the popularity of TNC among whites is seen as a bit of a joke. They compare it to white folks who are so proud of the maid’s kid who manages to actually attend college.

    If anyone read the book “Man in Full”, there is a scene where the Cap’m’s maid gushes about how the Cap’m is putting her son through college. Or think of the scene in one of the very first “All in the Family” episodes where at Archie’s prompting Lionel Jefferson says “I’s gone be a ‘lectrical engineer “

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    Top black intellectuals are academicians and industrial scientists working in STEM. They don't have much of a presence outside of strictly professional venues. One of the few who does is Neil deGrasse Tyson, (who hasn't published much and whose business is science education more than anything else). AFAIK, Tyson isn't particularly opinionated on topics that aren't cheek-by-jowl with the natural sciences. As for capable social researchers, they are generally going to be people you've never heard of. (One exception is Glenn Loury, another Wm. Julius Wilson). They're not likely to think much of Coates because he just doesn't know anything beyond his store of personal observations (which are often contrived and silly).
    , @Kronos
    My favorite example is on “Reno 911” Season 5 Episode 12 titled: “Strong Woman.”

    The female black deputy is interviewed by a famous black magazine. The journalist interviews the other deputies regarding said black deputy. All the (white) deputies say the right things (MLK talk, Strong woman) buzzwords and paint here as a superb officer. Except the only other black deputy, who explains she’s horrible at her job and likely can’t read.

    (I tried to find a scene on YouTube, but I’m guessing Comedy Central is slowly removing any offensive stuff from before the 2013 Great Awokening.)

    Soon, the only place to find good comedy will be on VHS tapes from Goodwilll. Does anyone want a vhs copy of Eddie Murphy Raw?

    https://images.gowatchit.com/posters/episodes/11798/original/371936.jpg?1407907584

  74. How Italians Became ‘White’

    Well there are the copious references to the Roman Republic by the Founding Fathers, the fact that Italy was the capitol of European Christianity for over a thousand years, the fact that much of our language is derived from Latin, the fact that England’s greatest playwright set many of his plays in Italy, the fact that the many of the characters in one of his greatest plays, “Othello,” most certainly didn’t consider Othello to be one of them, and the fact that Western European education practically worshipped at Ancient Rome’s feet for basically centuries.

    There is substantial overlap between the dominant Y and mtDNA haplogroups in Italy and Great Britain but almost none between Italy and Sub-Saharan Africa.

    But otherwise, yeah, Italians were never considered “white.”

  75. @nebulafox
    Depends on the country. Ethnic Chinese in Thailand are all monolingual in Thai, whereas it isn't hard to find Chinese in Malaysia who speak only basic Malay, when they do at all.

    But the United States, that's pretty much always been the case. Some ethnic groups lost their language faster than others, but everybody ended up defaulting to English with time. Not necessarily against their will, either: as Ron as noted, some of the most fanatical resistance to dual language education in 1990s California came from Spanish-speaking immigrant parents. They did not want their kids to be condemned to the same lives of menial labor that they were just so bien-pensants could feel good about themselves.

    Re-that article: a few vodka shots, and it'd be a funny experience. Without them, it's just ridiculous.

    some of the most fanatical resistance to dual language education in 1990s California came from Spanish-speaking immigrant parents.

    Jaime Escalante was among these. Seriously.

  76. @International Jew

    Noticeable in the US is that the majority of ‘blacks’ seem to speak with a similar accent
     
    I've noticed a change actually. The old Deep South accent seems to be giving way to something else. Especially among black women. Listen to Ayanna Pressley, for example. But it's not just college-educated blacks; you can hear the new accent from the untalented 9/10ths too.

    It’s giving way to the TV accent, which is a sort of modified midwestern accent. The deep south is, or was, home to a few dozen dialects. Those are disappearing.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    These people would dispute you:

    https://aschmann.net/AmEng/#SmallMapCanada


    They maintain there have been two accents throughout the South, barring the areas around New Orleans and Charleston, which have a discrete local dialect.

    They also say that generic speech is native to Pennsylvania and Ohio.

  77. logically, scare quotes should always be placed around/black/yellow/white because no human being I know is white, black, or yellow

  78. @Jonathan Mason
    There is no black and white.

    It is just a convention of the English language that Europeans are described as "white" and people of visible African descent described as "black', regardless of the actual color of their skin or hair. This does not necessarily carry over into other languages.

    The convention of calling people with African heritage black is not even particularly old in the English language, but in modern times it has replaced the Spanish word 'negro' (which is the Spanish word for black, if anyone does not know) in the English language.

    Mosquito is the Spanish word for little fly (mosca = a regular size fly, mosquito = a little fly). Perhaps we will soon start calling them little flies.

    We are all on a continuum between albino and black, but what is more significant is whether people have grown up in a particular culture of a particular ethnicity.

    For example, there is no doubt that ghetto blacks who grow up in the United States often acquire a set of behaviors that are regarded as undesirable, and the same may apply in Haiti, but the behaviors may be quite different, as is the language.

    Noticeable in the US is that the majority of 'blacks' seem to speak with a similar accent and vocabulary over vast stretches of this continental nation, whereas 'blacks' in England mostly speak with regional and local accents of the areas where their families live. Perhaps use of a common language contributes to racial integration.

    "Your husband's been having an affair? Have a cuppa (tea)!"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57DeyUEY8xY

    Thomas Sowell contends that 70 years ago, blacks spoke with the accent of their environs, but that in the intervening years all blacks came to sound Southern.

    One thing you do notice is the gradual decline of regional vernacular. Among whites, the Southern accent is disappearing. In our families, no one born after about 1956 has a proper Southern accent, even if they’ve lived in the South their whole life. As for local variants of northern speech, they’re difficult to pick out anymore unless they’re highly distinctive, like the New York – New Jersey accent.

    Black speech in this country has long been distinguished not by accent, but by differences in vocal timbre and elocution, as well as the habit of switching back and forth between standard English and dialect. West Indians in this country sound entirely different than American-born blacks.

  79. I don’t care if a public intellectual is white, black, purple, or polka-dotted. I just don’t think public intellectuals should be mentally retarded. Call me crazy, but that’s just how I genuinely feel.

  80. @Paleo Liberal
    Something I have pointed out before—

    Supposedly among the very top black intellectuals, the popularity of TNC among whites is seen as a bit of a joke. They compare it to white folks who are so proud of the maid’s kid who manages to actually attend college.

    If anyone read the book “Man in Full”, there is a scene where the Cap’m’s maid gushes about how the Cap’m is putting her son through college. Or think of the scene in one of the very first “All in the Family” episodes where at Archie’s prompting Lionel Jefferson says “I’s gone be a ‘lectrical engineer “

    Top black intellectuals are academicians and industrial scientists working in STEM. They don’t have much of a presence outside of strictly professional venues. One of the few who does is Neil deGrasse Tyson, (who hasn’t published much and whose business is science education more than anything else). AFAIK, Tyson isn’t particularly opinionated on topics that aren’t cheek-by-jowl with the natural sciences. As for capable social researchers, they are generally going to be people you’ve never heard of. (One exception is Glenn Loury, another Wm. Julius Wilson). They’re not likely to think much of Coates because he just doesn’t know anything beyond his store of personal observations (which are often contrived and silly).

  81. Whites get scare-quotes because all whites are scary to PoCs. In a world where nobody can wear white KKK hoods, it must be assumed that every non-PoC must surely be the KKK. Life was better for everyone when the KKK was free to be the KKK and the rest of us could point to the clearly self-identifying racist clowns.

  82. @Twodees Partain
    It's giving way to the TV accent, which is a sort of modified midwestern accent. The deep south is, or was, home to a few dozen dialects. Those are disappearing.

    These people would dispute you:

    https://aschmann.net/AmEng/#SmallMapCanada

    They maintain there have been two accents throughout the South, barring the areas around New Orleans and Charleston, which have a discrete local dialect.

    They also say that generic speech is native to Pennsylvania and Ohio.

    • Replies: @Twodees Partain
    There are several dialects in New Orleans itself, and in the surrounding counties, there are even more. Each state, not just in the south, has always had more than one dialect. They obviously don't know shit about it.
  83. @william munny
    I look forward to the new census forms.

    Is this somehow connected to the use of (((white)))?

    Maybe they want a civil war between the whites and Caucasians? Maybe city “white” liberals see themselves more as Caucasian?

  84. @Hapalong Cassidy
    I have had well-educated professionally successful black people tell me they needed to “axe” me something.

    I have had well-educated professionally successful black people tell me they needed to “axe” me something.

    Axe is actually an archaic form of the word ‘ask’, which was originally written ‘aks’. It has survived in parts of western England and in Caribbean dialects. Some people may find the aks version easier to pronounce.

    https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/people-have-been-saying-ax-instead-ask-1200-years-180949663/

    People Have Been Saying “Ax” Instead of “Ask” for 1,200 Years
    “Ax” for “ask” isn’t wrong, it’s just different

    • Replies: @syonredux

    People Have Been Saying “Ax” Instead of “Ask” for 1,200 Years
    “Ax” for “ask” isn’t wrong, it’s just different
     
    In this case, it's also a strongly stigmatized pronunciation. Use it, and people will think less of you. It's not fair, but that's the way it is.
  85. @Jonathan Mason

    I have had well-educated professionally successful black people tell me they needed to “axe” me something.
     
    Axe is actually an archaic form of the word 'ask', which was originally written 'aks'. It has survived in parts of western England and in Caribbean dialects. Some people may find the aks version easier to pronounce.

    https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/people-have-been-saying-ax-instead-ask-1200-years-180949663/

    People Have Been Saying “Ax” Instead of “Ask” for 1,200 Years
    “Ax” for “ask” isn’t wrong, it’s just different

    People Have Been Saying “Ax” Instead of “Ask” for 1,200 Years
    “Ax” for “ask” isn’t wrong, it’s just different

    In this case, it’s also a strongly stigmatized pronunciation. Use it, and people will think less of you. It’s not fair, but that’s the way it is.

    • Replies: @Jonathan Mason

    In this case, it’s also a strongly stigmatized pronunciation. Use it, and people will think less of you. It’s not fair, but that’s the way it is.
     
    It is actually a class marker, more than anything. And only people who are judgmental will give it any though, like, perhaps, school teachers.

    But we live in an era when such things have less and less importance attached to them. People like George W. Bush would probably use 'axe' if they felt like it and wanted to sound common.

  86. @syonredux

    We are all on a continuum between albino and black, but what is more significant is whether people have grown up in a particular culture of a particular ethnicity.
     
    Excellent parody.After all, as we all know, complexion alone does not determine race:

    https://www.aljazeera.com/mritems/Images/2016/6/7/e40268ad07e84671a810f9acc9cfc8b1_18.jpg


    https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/02/17/article-2280107-17A4F424000005DC-415_634x442.jpg

    as compared to


    https://celebmafia.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/elsa-hosk-victoria-s-secret-fashion-show-2015-after-party-in-nyc_4.jpg

    https://i.pinimg.com/736x/ba/40/80/ba4080a4d5cdc3a271945582b3775000.jpg

    For example, there is no doubt that ghetto blacks who grow up in the United States often acquire a set of behaviors that are regarded as undesirable, and the same may apply in Haiti, but the behaviors may be quite different, as is the language.

     

    Lotsa overlap there. Common Sub-Saharan African cultural inheritance. Low IQs.

    Noticeable in the US is that the majority of ‘blacks’ seem to speak with a similar accent and vocabulary over vast stretches of this continental nation, whereas ‘blacks’ in England mostly speak with regional and local accents of the areas where their families live. Perhaps use of a common language contributes to racial integration.
     
    Blacks are only recently arrived in the UK (the overwhelming majority are descended from people who arrived post-'45). Plus, their numbers are, by American standards, quite low (according to the 2011 census, the UK is 3.01% Black). Blacks in the USA, in contrast, are a long-settled population, with most tracing their ancestry to people who arrived prior to 1810. Blacks in the USA are also far more numerous (12.7% of the population).Those factors have allowed Blacks in the USA to preserve SSA cultural practices to a greater degree than their UK cousins.


    Of course Blacks, in the UK are not exactly perfect Britons....

    Police officers have the power to stop and search individuals under a range of legislation. Statistics have consistently shown that black people are disproportionately more likely to be subject to stop and searches.[16] In 2008/09 in England and Wales, more black people were stopped and searched under Section 1 of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act per head of population than any other ethnicity,[17] and black people were seven times more likely to be stopped and searched than white people.[18]
     

    In June 2010, through a Freedom of Information Act request, The Sunday Telegraph obtained statistics on accusations of crime broken down by race from the Metropolitan Police Service.[n 2] The figures showed that the majority of males who were accused of violent crimes in 2009–2010 were black. Of the recorded 18,091 such accusations against males, 54 percent accused of street crimes were black; for robbery, 58 percent; and for gun crimes, 67 percent.[27] Robbery, drug use, and gang violence have been associated with black people since the 1960s.[28] In the 1980s and 1990s, the police associated robbery with black people. In 1995, the Metropolitan Police commissioner Paul Condon said that the majority of robberies in London were committed by black people.[29]

     

    Street crimes include muggings, assault with intent to rob, and snatching property. Black males accounted for 29 percent of the male victims of gun crime and 24 percent of the male victims of knife crime.[27] Of sex offences, black men made up 32 per cent of male suspects. Similar statistics were recorded for females. Of knife crime, 45 percent of suspected female perpetrators were black; for gun crime, 58 percent; and of robberies, 52 percent.[30]
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_the_United_Kingdom

    If guns are outlawed, only blacks will have guns?

  87. I can think of one appropriate use for “white people”, and that is lightskinned Jews who don’t see themselves as “white people”.

    In this increasingly hard-to-find video, Morgan Freeman is asking Mike Wallace whether or not he wants to have “White History Month” (0’16”):

    Mike Wallace (born Myron Leon Wallik) responds “Well, I’m Jewish” to distinguish himself from the Gentiles – the “white people”.

    So, maybe Mike Wallace was “white”. That is, passing as white gentile.

  88. @bigdicknick
    Italians were always legally white. They could marry other whites when miscegenation laws existed. They could attend "whites only" institutions etc. Presumably this is well known on here.

    You really think white people looked at the statue of david and saw a person of another race?

    Yes and no. The David yes, Sicilian and Southern Italian peasant immigrants not so much.

    I have a friend whose father grew up in a Jersey shore resort community in the 30s. His dad said that while the Italians (unlike the blacks) attended the same school as the whites, they were treated as 2nd class citizens. For example all the Italian kids were assumed to be lice ridden and they would put kerosene in their hair as a “treatment”.

    Italians in America at one time occupied more or less the niche currently occupied by Mexicans. They weren’t black but they weren’t quite white either. People had no problem distinguishing between high class Italians like Caruso or Valentino or Michaelangelo and Luigi the swarthy Sicilian guy who peddled fruit.

    • Replies: @Wilkey

    For example all the Italian kids were assumed to be lice ridden and they would put kerosene in their hair as a “treatment”. Italians in America at one time occupied more or less the niche currently occupied by Mexicans. They weren’t black but they weren’t quite white either.
     
    Being despised and different from the majority and being "not white" aren't remotely the same. Hillbillies from Appalachia are different. Mormons are different. Okies in Depression-Era California were highly despised, but I doubt many people thought of them as "not white," except in the sense that they didn't appear to have the same standards or level of education as the vast majority of white people. That's applied to all kinds of white immigrant groups in the past - to Italians, who tended to be a wee bit duskier than other white Americans, and to the Irish, who were the same shade or even whiter.

    Even today some whites like to separate out the "good whites" from the "bad whites." But lacking a large white immigrant group to target they instead despise whites who hold more conservative values, or who live in the wrong part of the country (Flyover Country) or work in the wrong jobs.

    The desire to separate onseself from perceived riffraff is strong in a lot of people. Nevermind that the guy who you look down upon who has a "boring" job and lives in the wrong town may make twice as much as you with your Gender Studies degree and lives in the wrong town because his family lives there and he values his family above life in a glamorous zipcode.
    , @bigdicknick
    "Italians in America at one time occupied more or less the niche currently occupied by Mexicans"

    Ah, so they received special government contracts set aside for non-whites and got affirmative action in college admissions? They got special government backed minority business loans? Do you have a source on that? Seriously dude, what the hell are you talking about?
  89. @J.Ross
    So it turns out that broken windows is again proven right! Leftist urban government's experiment to prove broken windows is a success! You can stop at any time, guys ...

    A Portland antifascist activist was killed in the early hours of Saturday in an apparent hit-and-run
     
    [These are the geniuses standing in the middle of the street and attacking cars. The police and city hall allow them to do this.]

    near Cider Riot, a cidery and taproom popular with the city’s anarchist left that has been the scene of conflict with rightwing groups.
    According to the Portland Police Bureau, the car involved was fired upon and crashed into a nearby building. Its occupants fled the scene.
     
    http://archive.today/SiHmN

    Rose City Antifa said in a tweet that Kealiher’s death “was not related to fascist activity.”

    I assume that this means that it was some kind of internal dispute among antifa.

    I’m not sure that the cops give antifa carte blanche to attack cars, even in Portland.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    I’m not sure that the cops give antifa carte blanche to attack cars, even in Portland.

    Yeah Jack, all those videos were faked.
    , @JimDandy
    Or selling drugs to "fund the revolution" or whatever. The guy died because he chose to embrace a violent subculture.
    , @nebulafox
    Considering that much of Antifa suffers from mental illnesses of some kind, suicide or a personal dispute gone awry is probably not out of the question.

    > Feynman had one hell of a Brooklyn/Queens accent.

    Speaking from personal experience, Steve Weinberg still has a very thick Bronx accent. I'm guessing he's old and accomplished enough for it to be thought of as charming.

    I like accents. They add color, a backstory, a distinctive origin. The cool part about traveling around the country is that different parts of the country are different. No accounting for the taste of people who want the USA to be one big integrated box store.

    , @Neil Templeton
    Internal dispute or no, running down a man with an automobile? WTF kind of folk are these Antifa?
  90. Italians in America at one time occupied more or less the niche currently occupied by Mexicans.

    Italians were strongly associated with organized crime, bootlegging, and gambling, and with entertainment. Sinatra was just one of many popular Italian-American entertainers of his era.

    It could be that Italian men were seen as more of the Latin lover type. That’s amore!

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    Italians were strongly associated with organized crime, bootlegging, and gambling, and with entertainment. Sinatra was just one of many popular Italian-American entertainers of his era.

    The Mafia is an Italian organization, but it's a small sliver of the ethnic Italian population. When Rudolph Giuliani was burning up the rubber prosecuting the Five Families ca. 1986, the Justice Department calculated that there were just 1,700 'made guys'.
    , @Steve Sailer
    The War in Italy, 1943-45, made Americans wildly enthusiastic about Italian singers, movie queens, and cuisine. I don't really understand the connection, but it seems to have happened.

    It's a little bit like the Tiki craze that servicemen brought home from the War in the Pacific, although that had only a few beneficiaries like singer Don Ho.

  91. Anon[113] • Disclaimer says:
    @istevefan

    I first noticed this trend with Ta-Nehisi Coates’ hilarious bestseller in 2015, where blacks are “black bodies” and whites are “people who think that they are white.”
     
    And Coates is one of those "people who think that they are smart".

    As for how the Italians (or fill in the blank with any other European group) became White nonsense, it is clearly being promoted to divide any potential White voting bloc that sees common areas of interest among peoples of European descent.

    What is interesting is that in another America, European peoples where encouraged to give up their identities and become assimilated into the existing American culture. Thus over time we lost our distinctiveness and became closer to being one people. I actually think that is something to be proud of. We came from Europe and we had at one time prejudices against others from the continent based upon various cultural differences and wars among ourselves. Yet in America we eventually became one group. America basically took various Europeans who had a history of conflict among one another and eventually molded them together.

    That was then this is now. Today the White population must not think of themselves as a group with group interests because it might interfere with the plans of the nation wreckers. So while we are importing our replacement voters, we need to ensure Whites don't rally to their defense. Hence, we need to make sure anyone of Italian, Irish, etc. decent knows that his ancestors were not accepted the moment they got off the boat. Thus, any Italian, Irish, etc, would know that voting for the anti-White democrat party must be in their best interest.

    I would hope Whites don't fall for this, but I am sure many will since it gives some a chance to claim victim status and victim status seems to be in the rage.

    But I wish people of European heritage would read this.

    Whether they are a Serb and a Swiss, or a Finn and a Frenchman, any two Europeans are likely to have many common ancestors who lived around 1,000 years ago. A genomic survey of 2,257 people from 40 populations finds that people of European ancestry are more closely related to one another than previously thought, and could help to bring about new insights into European history.
     
    PS. I would hope that any American of Italian, Irish, etc. ethnicity, who is thinking that they too are not White and thus have no common interests with other Europeans, would look to their ancestral home in Europe and see what is happening. Their cousins and distant relatives back home are being replaced too. It matters not that the "Italians were not White", they are being replaced just the same. It matters not that the "Irish were not White", they are set to become a minority in Ireland in 50 years.

    We are all in the same boat together. Whether in North America, Europe or Oz. In fact now more than ever is the time for all Europeans to think of themselves as one group since all of us are being targeted for replacement. If anything Whites worldwide should become a solid block concerned for our collective futures.

    PPS. These people who push the "When so and so group became White" never seem to account for the fact that the US naturalized those groups when the law at the time only approved the naturalization of Whites.

    As for how the Italians (or fill in the blank with any other European group) became White nonsense, it is clearly being promoted to divide any potential White voting bloc that sees common areas of interest among peoples of European descent.

    I think this is true, but there are two types of historical revisionism on this issue.

    One is from the Left, which you describe. The other is from the Right which tries to obscure the historical self-perceptions and identity that the founding stock population held in the past. Traditionally, the founding stock had to varying degrees a Protestant, British, or Northern European -centric and chauvinistic self-perception and identity, and “white” had this more chauvinistic connotation where Northern European was the standard.

    Henry Cabot Lodge’s views reflect this more particularistic and chauvinistic view that was predominant:

    “The Restriction Of Immigration by Henry Cabot Lodge
    Speech in the Senate, March 16, 1896”

    https://www.nationalists.org/library/america/henry-lodge-speech-1896.html

    It is found, in the first place, that the illiteracy test will bear most heavily upon the Italians, Russians, Poles, Hungarians, Greeks, and Asiatics, and very lightly, or not at all, upon English-speaking emigrants, or Germans, Scandinavians, and French.

    In other words, the races most affected by the illiteracy test are those whose emigration to this country has begun within the last twenty years and swelled rapidly to enormous proportions, races with which the English-speaking people have never hitherto assimilated, and who are most alien to the great body of the people of the United States.

    On the other hand, immigrants from the United Kingdom and of those races which are most closely related to the English-speaking people, and who with the English-speaking people themselves founded the American colonies and built up the United States, are affected but little by the proposed test. These races would not be prevented by this law from coming to this country in practically undiminished numbers…

    During this century, down to 1875, then, as in the two which preceded it, there had been scarcely any immigration to this country except from kindred or allied races, and no other which was sufficiently numerous to have produced any effect on the national characteristics, or to be taken into account here.

    Since 1875, however, there has been a great change. While the people who for two hundred and fifty years have been migrating to America have continued to furnish large numbers of immigrants to the United States, other races of totally different race origin, with whom the English-speaking people have never hitherto been assimilated or brought in contact, have suddenly begun to immigrate to the United States in large numbers. Russians, Hungarians, Poles, Bohemians, Italians, Greeks, and even Asiatics, whose immigration to America was almost unknown twenty years ago, have during the last twenty years poured in in steadily increasing numbers, until now they nearly equal the immigration of those races kindred in blood or speech, or both, by whom the United States has hitherto been built up and the American people formed.

    This momentous fact is the one which confronts us to-day, and if continued, it carries with it future consequences far deeper than any other event of our times. It involves, in a word, nothing less than the possibility of a great and perilous change in the very fabric of our race.

  92. Adam Sanpaku admitted on Face the Nation that he does not actually have a case or any evidence against Trump regarding the Ukrainian phone call. He said this by decreeing that “there doesn’t need to be a quid pro quo.”
    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/transcript-representative-adam-schiff-on-face-the-nation-october-13-2019/

  93. @Jack D
    Rose City Antifa said in a tweet that Kealiher’s death “was not related to fascist activity.”

    I assume that this means that it was some kind of internal dispute among antifa.

    I'm not sure that the cops give antifa carte blanche to attack cars, even in Portland.

    I’m not sure that the cops give antifa carte blanche to attack cars, even in Portland.

    Yeah Jack, all those videos were faked.

  94. @Massimo Heitor
    Italians were traditionally white. The NYT is twisting history to bolster certain political points, but it's not true.

    Think of every famous Italian figure from history: people like Leonardo DaVinci, Dante Alighieri, Marco Polo, Christopher Columbus, or even go back to Roman times with Julius Caesar. Those people have always been considered white. It wasn't the case as the NYT suggests that those famous Italians used to be perceived as not-white and then the perception changed. Those Italians were always viewed as white.

    There were some dark skinned Italians from ~1900, and the NYT is featuring their photos, but most Italians were white and the Italian identity was widely perceived as white.

    Sure, in the US, there was bigotry towards Italians, and them vs us mentality, and political pressure to lower Italian immigration, and the aggressive expectation that Italians drop their distinct language and identity and assimilate, outside of food service, where Americans often wanted an exotic experience. But that group animosity towards Italians wasn't based on whiteness vs non-whiteness. And the NYT is trying to fabricate that for political reasons.

    Agreed. And as an Italian-American, I also can tell you the breakdown between Northern Italians and Sicilians meant less to outsiders than it did to Italians themselves.

    The bigotry Italians experienced in America was similar to that of the Irish. Both were outsiders who experienced prejudice early on (which reverberated into the ’70s in a muted form), but both assimilated pretty quickly, as these things go.

    Neither group tends to fixate on hardships that happened 70-100 years ago, either. It’s telling that a non-Italian-American wrote this article for the Times. Maybe they couldn’t find any of us who cared enough anymore to write it.

    I also find it telling that for all the criticism Nancy Pelosi and Rudy Giuliani, take Italian bigotry doesn’t seem to be in the mix.

  95. @Cloudbuster
    Presumably the point of this article is to stir up White guilt among the Italian-American community:

    "Hey, your people were once Black, too!"

    Not happening. My paternal grandparents were Italian immigrants. My Dad was dark-skinned enough that when he had a tan he was mistaken for Black on more than one occasion.

    Furthermore, I am in total agreement that Italian immigration had some deleterious effects on American society -- we brought a whole system of organized crime. Americans were well within their rights to stop additional Italian immigration, as they did, early in the 20th century.

    But, you know what? We didn't need a Civil Rights Act or affirmative action to become assimilated, productive members of society. We stopped speaking Italian, worked hard and most dissociated themselves from the Mafia.

    We didn't commit homicides at 8 times the rate of Whites, like Blacks do. We didn't refuse to learn English like many Hispanics do.

    We didn’t refuse to learn English like many Hispanics do.

    TBH, in the olden days there were some (especially older immigrants and especially women who did not work outside the home) who never learned much beyond broken English. If you lived in an Italian ghetto you could have most of your needs fulfilled without ever having to speak English. If English was required, you could enlist one of your kids as a translator – THEY all went to school and learned English ASAP.

    The difference between today’s Hispanics and Italians is that the pipeline from Italy eventually went dry and the old people died off. The other difference is that given cell phones and (for legal immigrants) cheap plane tickets, the connections to back home are maintained much more strongly. In the old days you might leave and never see your family again and maybe send or receive a letter a few times/year.

    • Replies: @Wilkey

    The other difference is that given cell phones and (for legal immigrants) cheap plane tickets, the connections to back home are maintained much more strongly.
     
    Most of the immigrants I know, including most of the so-called "refugees," make annual visits to the old country.
    , @Steve Sailer
    Italians immigrants weren't terribly adept at learning English. I guess most of the Dutch, German, and Scandinavian immigrants spoke a language closer to English so picked up English earlier.
    , @Cloudbuster
    As you say, my grandparents' English was never good, but once my Dad was school age, he was forbidden from speaking Italian at home.
  96. @Amerimutt Golems
    Cognitive dissonance.

    Race is a social construct but IQ differences are real. Which is it?

    Those people don’t believe in IQ differences, so there’s no dissonance.

    Me? I think the exact lines you draw are a social construct, but there are actual differences between groups, so no dissonance.

  97. @The Anti-Gnostic
    I think you're missing something here. All the world over, there is an underlying black speech intonation whether they are speaking colloquial English, French, Spanish, German, etc. Everyone can tell when a speaker is black, with a few outliers.

    For that matter, I can tell the difference in speech between a Northern, urban black and a Low Country, rural black. But the underlying black intonation is still there. They will still sound different from Northern, urban whites and Low Country, rural whites.

    Is this racial/sub-racial intonation neurological, physiological or what? I don't know, and I don't think there is any research at all on the topic. Linguistics is one of those academic disciplines, like evolutionary biology, with these "here be dragons" areas that nobody dares to explore.

    I started noticing a particular East Asian intonation as well, albeit a subtle one, when I went to a college with oodles of them. And it’s the sound of how their voices resonate or something – not an accent. Sometimes I can guess at it while listening to NPR, too.

    • Agree: Hail
    • Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist

    I started noticing a particular East Asian intonation as well, albeit a subtle one, when I went to a college with oodles of them. And it’s the sound of how their voices resonate or something – not an accent. Sometimes I can guess at it while listening to NPR, too.

     

    I think this is true. I live in Hong Kong, so I've got a lot of experience listening to EA speakers of English, and often I can tell the difference, although certainly not always.

    It may simply be a physiological phenomenon. White people on average are just flat out bigger than east Asians, and may therefore on average have voices that resonate differently.

    One example: Daughter C a few years back did a studio recording of her playing the guitar and singing. The sound tech, a local Hong Kong guy, was getting ready to set up separate mics for her guitar and her voice, but then as she was rehearsing, he decided to use a different type of mic set back a bit farther to pick up both. It worked well. He said for most Chinese female singers, a guitar drowned out their voices if a single mic were used, but in Daughter C's case, her voice was more powerful and penetrating. His explanation: bigger lungs.

  98. The NY Slimes brings us many examples of anti-White animus!

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/12/opinion/sunday/white-supremacist-recruitment.html

    Could they be any more blatant?

  99. @Jack D
    Rose City Antifa said in a tweet that Kealiher’s death “was not related to fascist activity.”

    I assume that this means that it was some kind of internal dispute among antifa.

    I'm not sure that the cops give antifa carte blanche to attack cars, even in Portland.

    Or selling drugs to “fund the revolution” or whatever. The guy died because he chose to embrace a violent subculture.

  100. @syonredux

    People Have Been Saying “Ax” Instead of “Ask” for 1,200 Years
    “Ax” for “ask” isn’t wrong, it’s just different
     
    In this case, it's also a strongly stigmatized pronunciation. Use it, and people will think less of you. It's not fair, but that's the way it is.

    In this case, it’s also a strongly stigmatized pronunciation. Use it, and people will think less of you. It’s not fair, but that’s the way it is.

    It is actually a class marker, more than anything. And only people who are judgmental will give it any though, like, perhaps, school teachers.

    But we live in an era when such things have less and less importance attached to them. People like George W. Bush would probably use ‘axe’ if they felt like it and wanted to sound common.

    • Replies: @syonredux

    In this case, it’s also a strongly stigmatized pronunciation. Use it, and people will think less of you. It’s not fair, but that’s the way it is.

    It is actually a class marker, more than anything.
     
    Yes. It indicates that someone is low class.

    And only people who are judgmental will give it any though, like, perhaps, school teachers.
     
    The world is full of judgemental people. I should know. I'm one of them.

    But we live in an era when such things have less and less importance attached to them. People like George W. Bush would probably use ‘axe’ if they felt like it and wanted to sound common.
     
    Some people can afford to be low and commonplace. Others cannot. I'm an academic, and I constantly hear from friends and colleagues who struggle with their stigmatized accents (NYC, Southern, etc). It's a tough world out there....
    , @Peripatetic Commenter
    I grew up in a working class community and only 'ask' was used.

    My impression is that only blacks say 'ax' when they mean 'ask'!
    , @The Anti-Gnostic
    Futurama had fun with this:

    https://youtu.be/iOz8vYzFiYE

    One word everybody has a problem with is "comfortable." Nobody says comfortable; they say comfterble. If we tracked the spelling, it's a clunky combination of the "f" with the front teeth and lower lip, the "or" at the back of the throat, and then back to the front with the tip of the tongue and roof of the mouth for the "t." So instead, everybody just puts the "front-mouth" letters together followed by the "back-mouth" letters.

    "Ask" is pretty easy though, so "aks" is perceived as declasse' ghetto black. Like "skreet" instead of "street."
  101. @International Jew

    Noticeable in the US is that the majority of ‘blacks’ seem to speak with a similar accent
     
    I've noticed a change actually. The old Deep South accent seems to be giving way to something else. Especially among black women. Listen to Ayanna Pressley, for example. But it's not just college-educated blacks; you can hear the new accent from the untalented 9/10ths too.

    Somewhere I read that among working class whites, regional accents are actually getting stronger as a form of group solidarity – the Philly accent seems to be in no danger of disappearing from what I hear and the local whites don’t sound like Midwestern TV announcers. (Most Americans don’t even know what a Philly accent sounds like – it’s nothing like NY, for example it is rhotic (r’s are pronounced). Water is not whawda, it’s wooder) Whereas ghetto blacks identify with their fellow ghetto blacks everywhere so there is a sort of national ghetto accent.

    • Replies: @syonredux

    Somewhere I read that among working class whites, regional accents are actually getting stronger as a form of group solidarity
     
    Might be something to that. When I lived in the Boston area, I noted how the Boston accent was very much a prole thing. As near as I can recall, all of the university educated Bostonians that I met spoke with General American (GA) accents.
  102. …Neil deGrasse Tyson, (who hasn’t published much and whose business is science education more than anything else).

    Essentially, a male, meat-space version of Prof. Wiseman, the “genius” who works at the local science museum:

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    He's published in The Atrophysical Journal and other venues, just not many articles. He runs a planetarium. The hostility to him here is bizarre.
  103. @Jack D
    Yes and no. The David yes, Sicilian and Southern Italian peasant immigrants not so much.

    I have a friend whose father grew up in a Jersey shore resort community in the 30s. His dad said that while the Italians (unlike the blacks) attended the same school as the whites, they were treated as 2nd class citizens. For example all the Italian kids were assumed to be lice ridden and they would put kerosene in their hair as a "treatment".

    Italians in America at one time occupied more or less the niche currently occupied by Mexicans. They weren't black but they weren't quite white either. People had no problem distinguishing between high class Italians like Caruso or Valentino or Michaelangelo and Luigi the swarthy Sicilian guy who peddled fruit.

    For example all the Italian kids were assumed to be lice ridden and they would put kerosene in their hair as a “treatment”. Italians in America at one time occupied more or less the niche currently occupied by Mexicans. They weren’t black but they weren’t quite white either.

    Being despised and different from the majority and being “not white” aren’t remotely the same. Hillbillies from Appalachia are different. Mormons are different. Okies in Depression-Era California were highly despised, but I doubt many people thought of them as “not white,” except in the sense that they didn’t appear to have the same standards or level of education as the vast majority of white people. That’s applied to all kinds of white immigrant groups in the past – to Italians, who tended to be a wee bit duskier than other white Americans, and to the Irish, who were the same shade or even whiter.

    Even today some whites like to separate out the “good whites” from the “bad whites.” But lacking a large white immigrant group to target they instead despise whites who hold more conservative values, or who live in the wrong part of the country (Flyover Country) or work in the wrong jobs.

    The desire to separate onseself from perceived riffraff is strong in a lot of people. Nevermind that the guy who you look down upon who has a “boring” job and lives in the wrong town may make twice as much as you with your Gender Studies degree and lives in the wrong town because his family lives there and he values his family above life in a glamorous zipcode.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
    "Being despised and different from the majority and being “not white” aren’t remotely the same."

    Actually, they was a direct link. Being Polish or Italian generally meant you were not the right type of white in the eyes of nativists, who viewed these two groups would dilute the gene pool. In a 1914 letter, William Davenport, a social worker, asked his brother Charles Davenport, a staunch proponent of eugenics, if Charles would help find room for an Italian laborer he knew. In response, Charles wrote a scathing four page letter. One of the sentiments was "I sometimes feel that the only thing is to leave the United States and go to a country like New Zealand or Australia which appreciate the importance of good blood...Excuse me, my dear brother, this rambling letter. You see the point is that, with the very great regret on my part, it would be out of the question."

    p. 163, Guarded Gate: Bigotry, Eugenics and the Law That Kept Two Generations of Jews, Italians, and Other European Immigrants Out of America, Daniel Okrent

    Note how this political cartoon depicts Italians as being "rats" with African-like features--beady eyes, dark complexion--who would clearly ruin the "whiteness" of America if allowed to ingratiate themselves with the finer features of Anglo-Saxons.

    https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:The_Unrestricted_Dumping-Ground._Louis_Dalrymple.jpg

    "Even today some whites like to separate out the “good whites” from the “bad whites.” But lacking a large white immigrant group to target they instead despise whites who hold more conservative values, or who live in the wrong part of the country (Flyover Country) or work in the wrong jobs."

    You are conveniently ignoring how quite a few on the Alt Right also separate the "good whites" from the "bad whites". You know, the whites who hold liberal values or who live in the wrong part of the country (East-West Coast) or work in the wrong jobs (intelligence community, college professors).
  104. Ancrestrydna :
    50% Spanish 45% French 5% Sardinia

    Familtrydna
    60% Spanish 15% British 15% Italian 5% Malta 5% Middle East

    23andme
    40% Spanish 20% Italian 20% Scandinavian 20% French

    Myheritage
    50% Spanish 25% Scandinavian 15% Jewish sefardi diaspora 10% English

    —-> it’s far from precise

    My heritage has found a cousin once removed with perfect predicted match though

  105. When did the Swedish ‘Swarthies’ become ‘White’?

    “And in Europe, the Spaniards, Italians, French, Russians and Swedes, are generally of what we call a swarthy Complexion; as are the Germans also, the Saxons only excepted, who with the English, make the principal Body of White People on the Face of the Earth.” – Benjamin Franklin

    Observations Concerning the Increase of Mankind, Peopling of Countries, etc.
    http://www.columbia.edu/~lmg21/ash3002y/earlyac99/documents/observations.html

  106. @Jack D

    We didn’t refuse to learn English like many Hispanics do.
     
    TBH, in the olden days there were some (especially older immigrants and especially women who did not work outside the home) who never learned much beyond broken English. If you lived in an Italian ghetto you could have most of your needs fulfilled without ever having to speak English. If English was required, you could enlist one of your kids as a translator - THEY all went to school and learned English ASAP.

    The difference between today's Hispanics and Italians is that the pipeline from Italy eventually went dry and the old people died off. The other difference is that given cell phones and (for legal immigrants) cheap plane tickets, the connections to back home are maintained much more strongly. In the old days you might leave and never see your family again and maybe send or receive a letter a few times/year.

    The other difference is that given cell phones and (for legal immigrants) cheap plane tickets, the connections to back home are maintained much more strongly.

    Most of the immigrants I know, including most of the so-called “refugees,” make annual visits to the old country.

    • Replies: @Hail

    most of the so-called “refugees” [whom I know] make annual visits to the old country.
     
    I wonder which (sort of) countries you mean.

    Speaking of which -- Do we know how many times Ilhan Omar has been back to Somalia?

  107. Globo-Homo Sodomania is the new religion of the sick and decadent West.

    No wonder they are banning humor. They want us to keep a straight face watching this farce.

  108. @Jonathan Mason

    In this case, it’s also a strongly stigmatized pronunciation. Use it, and people will think less of you. It’s not fair, but that’s the way it is.
     
    It is actually a class marker, more than anything. And only people who are judgmental will give it any though, like, perhaps, school teachers.

    But we live in an era when such things have less and less importance attached to them. People like George W. Bush would probably use 'axe' if they felt like it and wanted to sound common.

    In this case, it’s also a strongly stigmatized pronunciation. Use it, and people will think less of you. It’s not fair, but that’s the way it is.

    It is actually a class marker, more than anything.

    Yes. It indicates that someone is low class.

    And only people who are judgmental will give it any though, like, perhaps, school teachers.

    The world is full of judgemental people. I should know. I’m one of them.

    But we live in an era when such things have less and less importance attached to them. People like George W. Bush would probably use ‘axe’ if they felt like it and wanted to sound common.

    Some people can afford to be low and commonplace. Others cannot. I’m an academic, and I constantly hear from friends and colleagues who struggle with their stigmatized accents (NYC, Southern, etc). It’s a tough world out there….

    • Replies: @Jack D

    I constantly hear from friends and colleagues who struggle with their stigmatized accents (NYC, Southern, etc). It’s a tough world out there….
     
    I think it's getting tougher. Until fairly recently it was common to find even well educated people who had strong regional accents and this was considered acceptable. Feynman had one hell of a Brooklyn/Queens accent. Shelby Foote sounded like he was the reincarnation of Robert E. Lee (despite being Halachically Jewish - go figure). But nowadays it is a mark of being well educated not to have a regional accent. This is not only true of stigmatized accents but even patrician ones. The NY upper class accent (e.g. George Plimpton) is also virtually extinct.
  109. @Jack D
    Somewhere I read that among working class whites, regional accents are actually getting stronger as a form of group solidarity - the Philly accent seems to be in no danger of disappearing from what I hear and the local whites don't sound like Midwestern TV announcers. (Most Americans don't even know what a Philly accent sounds like - it's nothing like NY, for example it is rhotic (r's are pronounced). Water is not whawda, it's wooder) Whereas ghetto blacks identify with their fellow ghetto blacks everywhere so there is a sort of national ghetto accent.

    Somewhere I read that among working class whites, regional accents are actually getting stronger as a form of group solidarity

    Might be something to that. When I lived in the Boston area, I noted how the Boston accent was very much a prole thing. As near as I can recall, all of the university educated Bostonians that I met spoke with General American (GA) accents.

  110. @Jonathan Mason

    In this case, it’s also a strongly stigmatized pronunciation. Use it, and people will think less of you. It’s not fair, but that’s the way it is.
     
    It is actually a class marker, more than anything. And only people who are judgmental will give it any though, like, perhaps, school teachers.

    But we live in an era when such things have less and less importance attached to them. People like George W. Bush would probably use 'axe' if they felt like it and wanted to sound common.

    I grew up in a working class community and only ‘ask’ was used.

    My impression is that only blacks say ‘ax’ when they mean ‘ask’!

  111. Because they know. 20 IQ point less. Every time it comes up we keep our mouth shut, then quietly take the associates off to the side one on one and explain it.

    I assume all the professions do it. Everyone knows. They lie and say they don’t.

  112. @MEH 0910
    https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/1183412098774241280

    If the NYT believes that white liberals are the only ones more aware they are white in an age where the words “white” and “whiteness” is used 24/7 by the MSM in a consistently pejorative sense, I have a bridge in Brooklyn I’d like to sell them.

    They keep thinking that white people will, on the whole, be more aware that they are white and simultaneously not think of themselves as an ethno-racial political bloc with interests of their own. That’s just not going to happen. White supremacism is unlikely to take off, contra liberal nightmares (hopes?), but “identity politics for him, but not for him” is a fantasy in any multiracial society at the best of times, which these decidedly aren’t.

    • Replies: @AusReader
    I can imagine three trends or influences that could be changing white to 'white'.

    First could be the old school liberals in the tradition of Martin Luther King, who have always argued that if you want a society where people aren't stereotyped by their race and are judged as individuals, constantly stereotyping people as white and therefore racist etc is counter productive.

    Second would be the political strategists, who perhaps now have enough data to show that constantly telling whites how awful they are may cause a few to vote for you in atonement, but most of them get upset and angry and vote for someone else. A declining majority is still a majority. Plus, the political strategists may have noticed that most Hispanics also consider themselves to be white.

    Lastly, it could be a way to broaden the classification. In particular Chinese/Japanese/Korean east Asians are obviously not white, have been subject to much discrimination in the past, but still do OK. If anyone believing in traditional family values and hard work will now be labelled 'white' they can be safely ignored or attacked. Heck, Thomas Sowell might end up being 'white'.
  113. @syonredux

    In this case, it’s also a strongly stigmatized pronunciation. Use it, and people will think less of you. It’s not fair, but that’s the way it is.

    It is actually a class marker, more than anything.
     
    Yes. It indicates that someone is low class.

    And only people who are judgmental will give it any though, like, perhaps, school teachers.
     
    The world is full of judgemental people. I should know. I'm one of them.

    But we live in an era when such things have less and less importance attached to them. People like George W. Bush would probably use ‘axe’ if they felt like it and wanted to sound common.
     
    Some people can afford to be low and commonplace. Others cannot. I'm an academic, and I constantly hear from friends and colleagues who struggle with their stigmatized accents (NYC, Southern, etc). It's a tough world out there....

    I constantly hear from friends and colleagues who struggle with their stigmatized accents (NYC, Southern, etc). It’s a tough world out there….

    I think it’s getting tougher. Until fairly recently it was common to find even well educated people who had strong regional accents and this was considered acceptable. Feynman had one hell of a Brooklyn/Queens accent. Shelby Foote sounded like he was the reincarnation of Robert E. Lee (despite being Halachically Jewish – go figure). But nowadays it is a mark of being well educated not to have a regional accent. This is not only true of stigmatized accents but even patrician ones. The NY upper class accent (e.g. George Plimpton) is also virtually extinct.

    • Replies: @Old Palo Altan
    The NY upper class accent (e.g. George Plimpton) is also virtually extinct.


    Indeed. The only person I know who still uses it without affectation is my aunt - and she will be 98 in a few months time.

    , @Art Deco
    The NY upper class accent (e.g. George Plimpton) is also virtually extinct.

    I think that sort of speech was associated with certain boarding schools and finishing schools and was never very common. Known my share of New York patricians, but never met one person born after 1932 who displayed a variant of buckleyspeech, and not many from previous cohorts. Nelson Rockefeller had no such accent and there was only a hint of it in Franklin Roosevelt.
    , @Hark hark the snark
    American regional accents, those of Texas, New Orleans, Chicago, and Utah (at least when I lived there 50 years ago), have always been interesting to me. At work, 40 years ago in the Bay Area, I asked a co-worker: “Are you from Chicago?” She was astonished. “I’m from Milwaukee. How did you know that”. Me: “By your accent”. She: “I don’t have an accent!”
    , @Steve Sailer
    At Rice in late 1970s, my classmates from Houston tended to have less overtly Texan accents than their brothers who went to, say, Texas A&M.
    , @Houston 1992
    Article on Shelby Foote states that the Greenville Country Club membership contained
    more Jewish members than Baptist members ....

    https://gardenandgun.com/articles/shelby-footes-war-story/

    , @Hapalong Cassidy
    Yes, there is definitely a stigma attached to certain accents. Having relatives from the South and having lived most of my life there, I’ve never fallen prey to the “southern accent = dumb” prejudice, even though I’ve never had that accent myself. But a prejudice I do find myself needing to fight is against NY accents. I hear one and my first impulse is think “that person is an a-hole” until they prove otherwise.
    , @Desiderius
    They’re smelling your fear, not your accent.
  114. @Jack D
    Rose City Antifa said in a tweet that Kealiher’s death “was not related to fascist activity.”

    I assume that this means that it was some kind of internal dispute among antifa.

    I'm not sure that the cops give antifa carte blanche to attack cars, even in Portland.

    Considering that much of Antifa suffers from mental illnesses of some kind, suicide or a personal dispute gone awry is probably not out of the question.

    > Feynman had one hell of a Brooklyn/Queens accent.

    Speaking from personal experience, Steve Weinberg still has a very thick Bronx accent. I’m guessing he’s old and accomplished enough for it to be thought of as charming.

    I like accents. They add color, a backstory, a distinctive origin. The cool part about traveling around the country is that different parts of the country are different. No accounting for the taste of people who want the USA to be one big integrated box store.

    • Agree: Johann Ricke, sayless
  115. @El Dato

    Which, logically, is self-defeating.
     
    ...but it's truly just "self-defeating".

    We recently learned that blacks getting ahead (in school or otherwise) are actually holding blacks back because they just be "acting white".

    Self-defeat is a feature.

    Interesting article though. Having some Italian family, I know that when Italians immigrate, there will be trouble. That's how it is.

    Signalling!

    The Times was not owned by the family that controls it today when it dismissed Ida B. Wells as a “slanderous and nasty-minded mulattress” for rightly describing rape allegations as “a thread bare lie” that Southerners used against black men who had consensual sexual relationships with white women [I wonder who made those rape allegations]. Nevertheless, as a Times editorialist of nearly 30 years standing — and a student of the institution’s history — I am outraged and appalled by the nakedly racist treatment my 19th-century predecessors displayed in writing about African-Americans and Italian immigrants.
     
    Opening the door to dangerous badthink!

    Harrison’s Columbus Day proclamation in 1892 opened the door for Italian-Americans to write themselves into the American origin story, in a fashion that piled myth upon myth. As the historian Danielle Battisti shows in “Whom We Shall Welcome,” they rewrote history by casting Columbus as “the first immigrant” — even though he never set foot in North America and never immigrated anywhere (except possibly to Spain), and even though the United States did not exist as a nation during his 15th-century voyage. The mythologizing, carried out over many decades, granted Italian-Americans “a formative role in the nation-building narrative.” It also tied Italian-Americans closely to the paternalistic assertion, still heard today, that Columbus “discovered” a continent that was already inhabited by Native Americans.

     

    Weird, hurried and inapposite conclusion!

    This shows yet again how racial categories that people mistakenly view as matters of biology grow out of highly politicized myth making.
     
    THE END!

    Self-defeat is a feature.

    Really disturbingly un-self-aware story on NPR (I believe it was TAL) about the annual Caribbean Knife Riot they have in NYC. The crime was briefly acknowledged in this Maoist sentence “some people have come to associate [the parade] with crime.” There’s the black guy narrator — he’s not a Jamaican guy, he’s not a Trinidadian guy, he’s just a black guy — sadly noting the way how people who are from somewhere mention where they’re from. But the saddest is the costume supply emporium with the real bird feathers and inexhaustable pallette of sequins. It’s not run by a Jamaican, a Trinidadian, or a black guy. It’s run by a Chinese guy, who relates in wonderment that these people save up all year to pay $25 per feather to build a costume. Also sad is the phenomenon of “storming,” where people attempting to authentically represent a culture, however empty and degenerate, have to put up with tourists in street clothes physically invading the parade.
    There was a much earlier NPR example of un-self-awareness, where a black girl’s granmama lied to get her into a white people school, and the black girl related with amazement (under the Orwellian controlnframe that this demonstrated white people witholding magic out of racism), that in white people school the teacher actually taught the class, as opposed to running around dealing with discipline issues all day.

  116. @Art Deco
    These people would dispute you:

    https://aschmann.net/AmEng/#SmallMapCanada


    They maintain there have been two accents throughout the South, barring the areas around New Orleans and Charleston, which have a discrete local dialect.

    They also say that generic speech is native to Pennsylvania and Ohio.

    There are several dialects in New Orleans itself, and in the surrounding counties, there are even more. Each state, not just in the south, has always had more than one dialect. They obviously don’t know shit about it.

    • Agree: Autochthon
  117. @Paleo Liberal
    Something I have pointed out before—

    Supposedly among the very top black intellectuals, the popularity of TNC among whites is seen as a bit of a joke. They compare it to white folks who are so proud of the maid’s kid who manages to actually attend college.

    If anyone read the book “Man in Full”, there is a scene where the Cap’m’s maid gushes about how the Cap’m is putting her son through college. Or think of the scene in one of the very first “All in the Family” episodes where at Archie’s prompting Lionel Jefferson says “I’s gone be a ‘lectrical engineer “

    My favorite example is on “Reno 911” Season 5 Episode 12 titled: “Strong Woman.”

    The female black deputy is interviewed by a famous black magazine. The journalist interviews the other deputies regarding said black deputy. All the (white) deputies say the right things (MLK talk, Strong woman) buzzwords and paint here as a superb officer. Except the only other black deputy, who explains she’s horrible at her job and likely can’t read.

    (I tried to find a scene on YouTube, but I’m guessing Comedy Central is slowly removing any offensive stuff from before the 2013 Great Awokening.)

    Soon, the only place to find good comedy will be on VHS tapes from Goodwilll. Does anyone want a vhs copy of Eddie Murphy Raw?

  118. How Italians Became ‘White’

    Scare quotes around white because he’s not actually referring to white, because …

    Sorry, but the Irish were always ‘white’ (and so were Italians, Jews and so on)
    “The Volokh Conspiracy Analysis”

  119. @MikeatMikedotMike
    Brent Staples:

    https://static01.nyt.com/images/2018/04/26/opinion/brent-headshot/brent-headshot-videoSixteenByNineJumbo1600-v3.png

    This may not answer the question about scare quotes around the word white, but it explains a few other things.

    Staples needs to lose those glasses and that button-down shirt. He didn’t invent those, nor did his ancestors. Continuing to use those is cultural appropriation.

  120. @Cloudbuster
    Presumably the point of this article is to stir up White guilt among the Italian-American community:

    "Hey, your people were once Black, too!"

    Not happening. My paternal grandparents were Italian immigrants. My Dad was dark-skinned enough that when he had a tan he was mistaken for Black on more than one occasion.

    Furthermore, I am in total agreement that Italian immigration had some deleterious effects on American society -- we brought a whole system of organized crime. Americans were well within their rights to stop additional Italian immigration, as they did, early in the 20th century.

    But, you know what? We didn't need a Civil Rights Act or affirmative action to become assimilated, productive members of society. We stopped speaking Italian, worked hard and most dissociated themselves from the Mafia.

    We didn't commit homicides at 8 times the rate of Whites, like Blacks do. We didn't refuse to learn English like many Hispanics do.

    Black people should take heart.

    If Italians could become white, then one day they can, too.

  121. @Fidelios Automata
    And the N-word derives from the Dutch word for black.

    It goes back further than that.

    “Niger” is the latin word for black and, classically, is pronounced with a hard “g”.

  122. There’s at least one First Nations snark machine in Canada who is convinced Italians are White:

    • Replies: @Ancient Briton
    Did he paddle there in a dugout canoe, or fly in a tin bird?
  123. @The Anti-Gnostic
    I think you're missing something here. All the world over, there is an underlying black speech intonation whether they are speaking colloquial English, French, Spanish, German, etc. Everyone can tell when a speaker is black, with a few outliers.

    For that matter, I can tell the difference in speech between a Northern, urban black and a Low Country, rural black. But the underlying black intonation is still there. They will still sound different from Northern, urban whites and Low Country, rural whites.

    Is this racial/sub-racial intonation neurological, physiological or what? I don't know, and I don't think there is any research at all on the topic. Linguistics is one of those academic disciplines, like evolutionary biology, with these "here be dragons" areas that nobody dares to explore.
  124. @Jack D
    Rose City Antifa said in a tweet that Kealiher’s death “was not related to fascist activity.”

    I assume that this means that it was some kind of internal dispute among antifa.

    I'm not sure that the cops give antifa carte blanche to attack cars, even in Portland.

    Internal dispute or no, running down a man with an automobile? WTF kind of folk are these Antifa?

    • Replies: @Jack D
    I'd say they are a lot like James Fields.
  125. @Massimo Heitor
    Italians were traditionally white. The NYT is twisting history to bolster certain political points, but it's not true.

    Think of every famous Italian figure from history: people like Leonardo DaVinci, Dante Alighieri, Marco Polo, Christopher Columbus, or even go back to Roman times with Julius Caesar. Those people have always been considered white. It wasn't the case as the NYT suggests that those famous Italians used to be perceived as not-white and then the perception changed. Those Italians were always viewed as white.

    There were some dark skinned Italians from ~1900, and the NYT is featuring their photos, but most Italians were white and the Italian identity was widely perceived as white.

    Sure, in the US, there was bigotry towards Italians, and them vs us mentality, and political pressure to lower Italian immigration, and the aggressive expectation that Italians drop their distinct language and identity and assimilate, outside of food service, where Americans often wanted an exotic experience. But that group animosity towards Italians wasn't based on whiteness vs non-whiteness. And the NYT is trying to fabricate that for political reasons.

    Some of the objections to Italians, Irish and Jews etc were:

    1. They were not Protestants. There was certainly a bit of hostility between Catholics and Protestants, and between Christians and Jews. The Pope was a very powerful figure in the world, and many Americans thought the Catholic Church to be undemocratic.

    2. Many Southern and Eastern European cultures were low trust cultures. The idea of caveat emptor was antithetical to the idea of treating the customers well to get repeat business.

    3. Criminal gangs.

    4. Strange European ideas such as Anarchism and Marxism, often accompanied by violence.

    5. They were different people who often spoke strange languages.

    Note that I use the term strange to mean unfamiliar.

    • Replies: @Johann Ricke

    They were different people who often spoke strange languages.
     
    News to me that the Irish were different people or that Irish-accented English was a strange language.
    , @Reg Cæsar

    Some of the objections to Italians, Irish and Jews etc were:
     
    They opposed Prohibition. Imagine that. What could be more un-American?

    The Germans in Wisconsin, Protestant as well as Catholic, Socialist as well as conservative, opposed it so strongly that in 1912 they were able to defeat women's suffrage in a referendum*. Which the prim Scandinavians supported along with the WASPs.

    *And don't blame this on a male electorate. Suffrage fared worse where women were included in the vote.
  126. @Reg Cæsar

    ...Neil deGrasse Tyson, (who hasn’t published much and whose business is science education more than anything else).
     
    Essentially, a male, meat-space version of Prof. Wiseman, the "genius" who works at the local science museum:


    https://m.media-amazon.com/images/M/[email protected]_V1_.jpg

    He’s published in The Atrophysical Journal and other venues, just not many articles. He runs a planetarium. The hostility to him here is bizarre.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    It's not hostility, just dismissal.
  127. @Jack D

    I constantly hear from friends and colleagues who struggle with their stigmatized accents (NYC, Southern, etc). It’s a tough world out there….
     
    I think it's getting tougher. Until fairly recently it was common to find even well educated people who had strong regional accents and this was considered acceptable. Feynman had one hell of a Brooklyn/Queens accent. Shelby Foote sounded like he was the reincarnation of Robert E. Lee (despite being Halachically Jewish - go figure). But nowadays it is a mark of being well educated not to have a regional accent. This is not only true of stigmatized accents but even patrician ones. The NY upper class accent (e.g. George Plimpton) is also virtually extinct.

    The NY upper class accent (e.g. George Plimpton) is also virtually extinct.

    Indeed. The only person I know who still uses it without affectation is my aunt – and she will be 98 in a few months time.

    • Replies: @Hark hark the snark
    Janet Flanner, the New Yorker journalist from years past, spoke with a posh Northeastern accent that you can hear on a particular YouTube video of a Dick Cavett show. The main event, though, on that show was the face-off between Gore Vidal and Norman Mailer. Incidentally, both o’ them boys spoke with a polished NYC-syle intellectual accent.
  128. Until fairly recently it was common to find even well educated people who had strong regional accents and this was considered acceptable.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    John Morgan is a PI lawyer. He can get away with this accent doing the kind of work that he does. It's probably even an advantage in front of juries where he is seen as a man of the people vs. the Yankee insurance defense lawyers. His accent would not have been an advantage if he was interviewing for a job as an associate at a Big Law firm in a Northern city. Of course he gets the last laugh in that he makes a lot more than even a Big Law partner.
  129. @El Dato

    Which, logically, is self-defeating.
     
    ...but it's truly just "self-defeating".

    We recently learned that blacks getting ahead (in school or otherwise) are actually holding blacks back because they just be "acting white".

    Self-defeat is a feature.

    Interesting article though. Having some Italian family, I know that when Italians immigrate, there will be trouble. That's how it is.

    Signalling!

    The Times was not owned by the family that controls it today when it dismissed Ida B. Wells as a “slanderous and nasty-minded mulattress” for rightly describing rape allegations as “a thread bare lie” that Southerners used against black men who had consensual sexual relationships with white women [I wonder who made those rape allegations]. Nevertheless, as a Times editorialist of nearly 30 years standing — and a student of the institution’s history — I am outraged and appalled by the nakedly racist treatment my 19th-century predecessors displayed in writing about African-Americans and Italian immigrants.
     
    Opening the door to dangerous badthink!

    Harrison’s Columbus Day proclamation in 1892 opened the door for Italian-Americans to write themselves into the American origin story, in a fashion that piled myth upon myth. As the historian Danielle Battisti shows in “Whom We Shall Welcome,” they rewrote history by casting Columbus as “the first immigrant” — even though he never set foot in North America and never immigrated anywhere (except possibly to Spain), and even though the United States did not exist as a nation during his 15th-century voyage. The mythologizing, carried out over many decades, granted Italian-Americans “a formative role in the nation-building narrative.” It also tied Italian-Americans closely to the paternalistic assertion, still heard today, that Columbus “discovered” a continent that was already inhabited by Native Americans.

     

    Weird, hurried and inapposite conclusion!

    This shows yet again how racial categories that people mistakenly view as matters of biology grow out of highly politicized myth making.
     
    THE END!

    The Times was not owned by the family that controls it today when it dismissed Ida B. Wells as a “slanderous and nasty-minded mulattress” …

    Outright lying or Talmudic hair-splitting?

  130. @Jack D

    I constantly hear from friends and colleagues who struggle with their stigmatized accents (NYC, Southern, etc). It’s a tough world out there….
     
    I think it's getting tougher. Until fairly recently it was common to find even well educated people who had strong regional accents and this was considered acceptable. Feynman had one hell of a Brooklyn/Queens accent. Shelby Foote sounded like he was the reincarnation of Robert E. Lee (despite being Halachically Jewish - go figure). But nowadays it is a mark of being well educated not to have a regional accent. This is not only true of stigmatized accents but even patrician ones. The NY upper class accent (e.g. George Plimpton) is also virtually extinct.

    The NY upper class accent (e.g. George Plimpton) is also virtually extinct.

    I think that sort of speech was associated with certain boarding schools and finishing schools and was never very common. Known my share of New York patricians, but never met one person born after 1932 who displayed a variant of buckleyspeech, and not many from previous cohorts. Nelson Rockefeller had no such accent and there was only a hint of it in Franklin Roosevelt.

    • Replies: @Old Palo Altan
    You are correct: such accents were indeed much more a question of schools than class alone.
    FDR spoke with a Groton accent, as did my grandmother's cousin Joseph Clark Grew, whom I mention because he, like Roosevelt, can be listened to on Youtube.

    Nelson Rockefeller (whose first wife was another Clark cousin) went to an experimental school in New York City; in other words, one not based on class. His wife's cousin Senator Joe Clark of Pennsylvania spoke with that "St. Grottelsex" voice (i.e., St Paul's, Groton, and Middlesex), but in a less obvious way than those a generation older.

    The children of my aunt (mentioned in a post just before this one) went to Lawrenceville and Choate for the boys, and the Masters School and Miss Porter's for the girls. None of them speak as their parent's did, except perhaps , and curiously, for the youngest, but he was always a self-aware little fellow.
    , @Hibernian
    "...only a hint of it in Franklin Roosevelt."

    "Ah hate waw and Elenaw hates waw."
    , @syonredux

    and there was only a hint of it in Franklin Roosevelt.
     
    More than a hint, I would say:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MX_v0zxM23Q


    Eleanor's Northeastern patrician accent was quite strong:


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPVWmmVKVk0

    TR's was also quite evident:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhlzdjPGxrs

    And here are a couple of Boston Brahmin's

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwvONJXJUO4
    , @syonredux
    Here's an interesting comparison:

    Henry Cabot Lodge (1850-1924)


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0x2TGuMdGB0


    and his grandson, Henry Cabot Lodge, jr (1902-1985)



    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrWxtibmC8w
  131. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:

    OT:

    There’s No Such Thing as a Dangerous Neighborhood

    Stephen Lurie
    Most serious urban violence is concentrated among less than 1 percent of a city’s population. So why are we still criminalizing whole areas?

    In 1982, George L. Kelling and James Q. Wilson told a story about a window, a story that changed the fates of entire neighborhoods for decades. Writing in the March issue of The Atlantic, Kelling and Wilson proposed that American policing needed to get back to the project of maintaining order if America wanted communities be safe from harm. “Disorder and crime are usually inextricably linked, in a kind of developmental sequence,” they argued. One broken window leads to scores of broken windows; broken windows signal the breakdown of neighborhood social control; neighborhoods become “vulnerable to criminal invasion,” communities ridden with destruction, drug dealing, prostitution, robbery, and ultimately, serious violence.

    In essence, Kelling and Wilson argued that latent danger loomed everywhere, and everywhere people’s disorderly impulses needed to be repressed, or else. Their “broken windows theory” didn’t stay theoretical: Also known as order maintenance policing, this tactic propelled an entire generation of policing practice that sought to crack down on minor “quality-of-life” infractions as a way to stem violence.

    As taken up by police in New York City, Los Angeles, and across the country, broken windows policing led to the aggressive use of stops, summons, and misdemeanor arrests in predominantly black and Hispanic neighborhoods. More than 30 years later, the evidence demonstrates that the broken windows paradigm does little to nothing to reduce serious crime but does tend to make people feel more unsafe, reduce trust in and cooperation with police, and could contribute to, in fact, producing and facilitating more violence.

    While police departments often recognize that “we can’t arrest our way out of the problem,” the broken windows paradigm remains active throughout policing. Perhaps most significantly, it still colors how the public views violence and demands responses to it: both as a danger that characterizes entire poor communities of color, and as a menace that poses a constant threat.

    This long-held view is, simply, wrong.

    The knowledge that we’ve gained since 1982 unequivocally tells us something else: Serious violence is extremely concentrated in very particular places and, most importantly, among very particular people. Dispelling the notion of “dangerous neighborhoods,” extensive research on geographic concentration has consistently found that around half of all crime complaints or incidents of gun violence concentrated at about 5 percent of street segments or blocks in a given city. Moving past “violent communities,” sophisticated analysis of social networks have demonstrated that homicides and shootings are strongly concentrated within small social networks within cities—and that there is even further concentration of violence within these social networks.

    https://getpocket.com/explore/item/there-s-no-such-thing-as-a-dangerous-neighborhood

  132. @Paleo Liberal
    Some of the objections to Italians, Irish and Jews etc were:

    1. They were not Protestants. There was certainly a bit of hostility between Catholics and Protestants, and between Christians and Jews. The Pope was a very powerful figure in the world, and many Americans thought the Catholic Church to be undemocratic.

    2. Many Southern and Eastern European cultures were low trust cultures. The idea of caveat emptor was antithetical to the idea of treating the customers well to get repeat business.

    3. Criminal gangs.

    4. Strange European ideas such as Anarchism and Marxism, often accompanied by violence.

    5. They were different people who often spoke strange languages.

    Note that I use the term strange to mean unfamiliar.

    They were different people who often spoke strange languages.

    News to me that the Irish were different people or that Irish-accented English was a strange language.

    • Replies: @Houston 1992
    Many Irish immigrants would have spoken Gaelic. The potato famine was very severe in the Gaelic speaking regions and led to very heavy emigration from those regions
  133. @Jonathan Mason

    Italians in America at one time occupied more or less the niche currently occupied by Mexicans.
     
    Italians were strongly associated with organized crime, bootlegging, and gambling, and with entertainment. Sinatra was just one of many popular Italian-American entertainers of his era.

    It could be that Italian men were seen as more of the Latin lover type. That's amore!

    Italians were strongly associated with organized crime, bootlegging, and gambling, and with entertainment. Sinatra was just one of many popular Italian-American entertainers of his era.

    The Mafia is an Italian organization, but it’s a small sliver of the ethnic Italian population. When Rudolph Giuliani was burning up the rubber prosecuting the Five Families ca. 1986, the Justice Department calculated that there were just 1,700 ‘made guys’.

    • Replies: @Johann Ricke

    When Rudolph Giuliani was burning up the rubber prosecuting the Five Families ca. 1986, the Justice Department calculated that there were just 1,700 ‘made guys’.
     
    Around which there were possibly tens of thousands of gofers like Henry Hill and other non full-blooded Italians who did things ranging from running numbers to carrying out hits on marked men.
    , @Kronos
    In this book, it talked about how Mafias were very much a southern Italian thing. Northern Italians (like Mussolini) tried to stamp them out during the 1920s onward.

    https://www.amazon.com/Five-Families-Resurgence-Americas-Powerful/dp/1250101700
  134. @Art Deco
    Italians were strongly associated with organized crime, bootlegging, and gambling, and with entertainment. Sinatra was just one of many popular Italian-American entertainers of his era.

    The Mafia is an Italian organization, but it's a small sliver of the ethnic Italian population. When Rudolph Giuliani was burning up the rubber prosecuting the Five Families ca. 1986, the Justice Department calculated that there were just 1,700 'made guys'.

    When Rudolph Giuliani was burning up the rubber prosecuting the Five Families ca. 1986, the Justice Department calculated that there were just 1,700 ‘made guys’.

    Around which there were possibly tens of thousands of gofers like Henry Hill and other non full-blooded Italians who did things ranging from running numbers to carrying out hits on marked men.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    Henry Hill was a made guy, awarded that status for a lucrative robbery he pulled off in 1968. (His mother was Italian). The mafia has 'associates' who can rise in the organization. Not sure what the ratio of associates to made guys is.
  135. @216
    https://twitter.com/TimesLIVE/status/1183291019212869633

    I read that as “Khaya Shithole”.

    Damn, I’m racist.

  136. This kind of thinking is easily sold to Americans because of their unfortunate ignorance of history and geography.

    Italy is in Europe, Italian is an Indo-European language and Italians are genetically European (i.e. descended from the continents three prehistoric progenitor populations).

    The phenotypic differences between Northern and Southern Europeans is due to different genetic ratios, NE’s are more WHG and IE whereas SE’s are more EEF. And yet all three components are present in both.

    The argument that certain groups “became white” strains credulity. These various peoples all originated on the same continents and lived in proximity for centuries, so common sense would dictate that they all share a common origin. Does the Left actually believe they all originated independently of each other and just happen to share a similar physiology, related languages etc?

  137. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:

    Made guys were the officer corps of organized crime: there were a lot more enlisted men and many more still sympathizers and allies. The Mob in the old days provided crime but also provide for certain levels of safety for community members. Any hoods that stuck anyone up on the block where a made guy lived was found in the river dead.

    Still, it was a minority of Italians, and many other groups had organized crime of their own.

  138. @Art Deco
    The NY upper class accent (e.g. George Plimpton) is also virtually extinct.

    I think that sort of speech was associated with certain boarding schools and finishing schools and was never very common. Known my share of New York patricians, but never met one person born after 1932 who displayed a variant of buckleyspeech, and not many from previous cohorts. Nelson Rockefeller had no such accent and there was only a hint of it in Franklin Roosevelt.

    You are correct: such accents were indeed much more a question of schools than class alone.
    FDR spoke with a Groton accent, as did my grandmother’s cousin Joseph Clark Grew, whom I mention because he, like Roosevelt, can be listened to on Youtube.

    Nelson Rockefeller (whose first wife was another Clark cousin) went to an experimental school in New York City; in other words, one not based on class. His wife’s cousin Senator Joe Clark of Pennsylvania spoke with that “St. Grottelsex” voice (i.e., St Paul’s, Groton, and Middlesex), but in a less obvious way than those a generation older.

    The children of my aunt (mentioned in a post just before this one) went to Lawrenceville and Choate for the boys, and the Masters School and Miss Porter’s for the girls. None of them speak as their parent’s did, except perhaps , and curiously, for the youngest, but he was always a self-aware little fellow.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    I have a number of friends and now even family members who went to these places from the 1960s onward and not a one of them has any hint of the old St. Grottelsex pronunciation. It is well and truly extinct as far as I can tell.
    , @Hhsiii
    I went to Choate in the early ‘80s and don’t have that accent, but my Aunt, 92, from North Carolina had it, and you can still hear it a bit in her daughters, my cousins, who went to Madeira. My Aunt went to public school in Winston Salem so for her just an affectation she thoroughly adopted.

    I don’t have much accent but being raised in New Jersey by North Carolinians I pronounce my A’s in words like marry and carry like the A in “asshole”, whereas down South it’s usually pronounced like in merry or ferry, or air.

    My wife is from Latvia but has been in NY for 20 years since she was 18. She pronounces coffee “cawfee”. Very nyc grating.
  139. @Johann Ricke

    When Rudolph Giuliani was burning up the rubber prosecuting the Five Families ca. 1986, the Justice Department calculated that there were just 1,700 ‘made guys’.
     
    Around which there were possibly tens of thousands of gofers like Henry Hill and other non full-blooded Italians who did things ranging from running numbers to carrying out hits on marked men.

    Henry Hill was a made guy, awarded that status for a lucrative robbery he pulled off in 1968. (His mother was Italian). The mafia has ‘associates’ who can rise in the organization. Not sure what the ratio of associates to made guys is.

    • Replies: @Hibernian
    There's a dispute as to whether or not Hill was made; some say that made men must be full bloodedly Italian, with no exceptions, including for Hill.
    , @Johann Ricke
    It's not clear how authoritative Wikipedia is on this subject, but there's an explicit mention of Henry Hill:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Made_man
    [Traditionally, in the Italian-American Mafia, to become a made man, the inductee had to be a male of full Italian descent.[2] For example, famous Lucchese family associate Henry Hill, portrayed in the 1990 film Goodfellas, was unable to become a made man despite his extensive Mafia career and even his mother being of Sicilian descent, because Hill's father was of Irish descent. Today, it is believed that the Italian-American Mafia has loosened this requirement so that males of half-Italian descent through their father's line can also be inducted. According to Salvatore Vitale, it was decided during a Commission meeting in 2000 to restore the rule requiring both parents to be of Italian descent;[3] however, this rule was explicitly for the Five Families in New York City, and in practice the rule may be overlooked even in New York City in certain cases. Because an increased number of third- and fourth-generation Italian Americans have some non-Italian ancestry (due to the mixing of ethnic groups in the United States), having an Italian surname seems to have become the prerequisite for Mafia membership. Examples of made members who are not of full Italian descent include the son of Italian-American mobster John Gotti, John A. Gotti, whose maternal grandmother was Russian; and Frank Salemme of the New England Patriarca crime family, whose mother was of Irish descent while his father was of Italian descent. In other cases, partially Italian-American associates have hidden their non-Italian heritage to become made men, as in the case of Scarfo crime family soldier and made man Andrew Thomas DelGiorno, who was of Polish and Italian descent but managed to conceal his Polish heritage on his mother's side and was therefore inducted into the Philadelphia Mafia. ]
  140. @bigdicknick
    Italians were always legally white. They could marry other whites when miscegenation laws existed. They could attend "whites only" institutions etc. Presumably this is well known on here.

    You really think white people looked at the statue of david and saw a person of another race?

    Nope, no more than the most popular TV show of the 1950’s, which showed SEPARATE BEDS for a married couple, considered a Cuban (“Latino”) to be of a different race than a red-head. It was permissible because no one at the time considered obviously white Hispanics to be any thing other than a sub-category (“ethnicity”) of the white, European race, any more than Italians, even dark Sicilians (ethnic as they may be).

    MENA is the next “we’re not ‘white’” category coming. Even if Whites originated in what is today modern-day Iran, Iraq, Syria and Turkey.

    • Replies: @dcite
    Divide and conquer what has till now not been divided. That's what the MSM does, as ordered.
    All shows had separate beds for married couples. It was a tv convention. Lucy and Desi were never seen as an interracial couple. Just the idea was hilarious to me (I grew up watching I Love Lucy) when I first heard it years ago. None of us ever thought of Desi Arnaz as anything other than -- Cuban. A bit exotic but would have blended easily enough into Fred, Ethel and Lucy-land if he didn't have an accent. I remember as a kid noting the black train porter in one episode as being the only "colored" person to appear in the whole series. Actually I think there was a black person waiting for the subway in another episode. Desi didn't stand out for being a different "race." He stood out for his exaggerated accent, comical hot temper, and flamboyant floor show down at the Copa Cabana.
  141. Anonymous[375] • Disclaimer says:
    @res
    Good observation about the URL, but based on the article subtitle (? text above the title) "Vicious bigotry, reluctant acceptance: an American story" and body text I think "racism" in the URL meant against Italian Americans, not by them.

    The oldest archive link I see has the same article title:
    https://web.archive.org/web/20191012143024/https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/10/12/opinion/columbus-day-italian-american-racism.html

    They try so hard to make mass immigration and the massive problems and divisions it’s causing seem normal. ‘Twas always so’…It’s just business as usual, trust us. People absolutely hated Italians too, but everything always works out in the end! We’ll all look back in 30-years and laugh at how silly it all was to be at all concerned. A wonderful future awaits, just pipe down and stop being a racist worry wart.

  142. @Heynonny
    I started noticing a particular East Asian intonation as well, albeit a subtle one, when I went to a college with oodles of them. And it's the sound of how their voices resonate or something - not an accent. Sometimes I can guess at it while listening to NPR, too.

    I started noticing a particular East Asian intonation as well, albeit a subtle one, when I went to a college with oodles of them. And it’s the sound of how their voices resonate or something – not an accent. Sometimes I can guess at it while listening to NPR, too.

    I think this is true. I live in Hong Kong, so I’ve got a lot of experience listening to EA speakers of English, and often I can tell the difference, although certainly not always.

    It may simply be a physiological phenomenon. White people on average are just flat out bigger than east Asians, and may therefore on average have voices that resonate differently.

    One example: Daughter C a few years back did a studio recording of her playing the guitar and singing. The sound tech, a local Hong Kong guy, was getting ready to set up separate mics for her guitar and her voice, but then as she was rehearsing, he decided to use a different type of mic set back a bit farther to pick up both. It worked well. He said for most Chinese female singers, a guitar drowned out their voices if a single mic were used, but in Daughter C’s case, her voice was more powerful and penetrating. His explanation: bigger lungs.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Different singers need different micing, for placement, type of mic used and any EQ or compression needed. (Most pop singers and any classically trained singer singing into a mic need a little judiciously applied compression for best results: key is "judiciously applied". )

    Johnny Cash was a legendary case; micing him was more like a guitar amp. High level, they called him "Mister Decibel".

    On the opposite end was Nancy Sinatra. She has a limited range and limited dynamics but knows what to do with what she has.
    https://nancysinatra.com/blog/2012/07/nancy-sound/
  143. Henry Hill was a made guy, awarded that status for a lucrative robbery he pulled off in 1968.

    Do you recall where you read this? In the movie, as well as in Wikipedia, it was stated that only full-blooded Italians could become made guys:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Hill

    Like Burke, he was of Irish ancestry and therefore ineligible to become a “made man”.

  144. @Old Palo Altan
    The NY upper class accent (e.g. George Plimpton) is also virtually extinct.


    Indeed. The only person I know who still uses it without affectation is my aunt - and she will be 98 in a few months time.

    Janet Flanner, the New Yorker journalist from years past, spoke with a posh Northeastern accent that you can hear on a particular YouTube video of a Dick Cavett show. The main event, though, on that show was the face-off between Gore Vidal and Norman Mailer. Incidentally, both o’ them boys spoke with a polished NYC-syle intellectual accent.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    Flanner was from Indiana and her posh NE accent must have been an affectation. She was also an example of how lesbians used to hide in plain sight. Here she is with Hemingway during the liberation of Paris:

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/97/Flanners_und_Hemingwy.jpg

    Hemingway is the one with the mustache.
  145. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @The Last Real Calvinist

    I started noticing a particular East Asian intonation as well, albeit a subtle one, when I went to a college with oodles of them. And it’s the sound of how their voices resonate or something – not an accent. Sometimes I can guess at it while listening to NPR, too.

     

    I think this is true. I live in Hong Kong, so I've got a lot of experience listening to EA speakers of English, and often I can tell the difference, although certainly not always.

    It may simply be a physiological phenomenon. White people on average are just flat out bigger than east Asians, and may therefore on average have voices that resonate differently.

    One example: Daughter C a few years back did a studio recording of her playing the guitar and singing. The sound tech, a local Hong Kong guy, was getting ready to set up separate mics for her guitar and her voice, but then as she was rehearsing, he decided to use a different type of mic set back a bit farther to pick up both. It worked well. He said for most Chinese female singers, a guitar drowned out their voices if a single mic were used, but in Daughter C's case, her voice was more powerful and penetrating. His explanation: bigger lungs.

    Different singers need different micing, for placement, type of mic used and any EQ or compression needed. (Most pop singers and any classically trained singer singing into a mic need a little judiciously applied compression for best results: key is “judiciously applied”. )

    Johnny Cash was a legendary case; micing him was more like a guitar amp. High level, they called him “Mister Decibel”.

    On the opposite end was Nancy Sinatra. She has a limited range and limited dynamics but knows what to do with what she has.
    https://nancysinatra.com/blog/2012/07/nancy-sound/

  146. @Jack D

    I constantly hear from friends and colleagues who struggle with their stigmatized accents (NYC, Southern, etc). It’s a tough world out there….
     
    I think it's getting tougher. Until fairly recently it was common to find even well educated people who had strong regional accents and this was considered acceptable. Feynman had one hell of a Brooklyn/Queens accent. Shelby Foote sounded like he was the reincarnation of Robert E. Lee (despite being Halachically Jewish - go figure). But nowadays it is a mark of being well educated not to have a regional accent. This is not only true of stigmatized accents but even patrician ones. The NY upper class accent (e.g. George Plimpton) is also virtually extinct.

    American regional accents, those of Texas, New Orleans, Chicago, and Utah (at least when I lived there 50 years ago), have always been interesting to me. At work, 40 years ago in the Bay Area, I asked a co-worker: “Are you from Chicago?” She was astonished. “I’m from Milwaukee. How did you know that”. Me: “By your accent”. She: “I don’t have an accent!”

  147. @Art Deco
    The NY upper class accent (e.g. George Plimpton) is also virtually extinct.

    I think that sort of speech was associated with certain boarding schools and finishing schools and was never very common. Known my share of New York patricians, but never met one person born after 1932 who displayed a variant of buckleyspeech, and not many from previous cohorts. Nelson Rockefeller had no such accent and there was only a hint of it in Franklin Roosevelt.

    “…only a hint of it in Franklin Roosevelt.”

    “Ah hate waw and Elenaw hates waw.”

  148. @Art Deco
    Henry Hill was a made guy, awarded that status for a lucrative robbery he pulled off in 1968. (His mother was Italian). The mafia has 'associates' who can rise in the organization. Not sure what the ratio of associates to made guys is.

    There’s a dispute as to whether or not Hill was made; some say that made men must be full bloodedly Italian, with no exceptions, including for Hill.

  149. @Cloudbuster
    Presumably the point of this article is to stir up White guilt among the Italian-American community:

    "Hey, your people were once Black, too!"

    Not happening. My paternal grandparents were Italian immigrants. My Dad was dark-skinned enough that when he had a tan he was mistaken for Black on more than one occasion.

    Furthermore, I am in total agreement that Italian immigration had some deleterious effects on American society -- we brought a whole system of organized crime. Americans were well within their rights to stop additional Italian immigration, as they did, early in the 20th century.

    But, you know what? We didn't need a Civil Rights Act or affirmative action to become assimilated, productive members of society. We stopped speaking Italian, worked hard and most dissociated themselves from the Mafia.

    We didn't commit homicides at 8 times the rate of Whites, like Blacks do. We didn't refuse to learn English like many Hispanics do.

    Well, said, Cloudbuster. The kitchen of our Italian neighbors smelled different to ours, and they had strange things in their garden, such as zucchini. But their son Tony was commander of the local American Legion post. And in high school, Janice G. taught me the meaning of feminine beauty.

  150. @Jack D

    I constantly hear from friends and colleagues who struggle with their stigmatized accents (NYC, Southern, etc). It’s a tough world out there….
     
    I think it's getting tougher. Until fairly recently it was common to find even well educated people who had strong regional accents and this was considered acceptable. Feynman had one hell of a Brooklyn/Queens accent. Shelby Foote sounded like he was the reincarnation of Robert E. Lee (despite being Halachically Jewish - go figure). But nowadays it is a mark of being well educated not to have a regional accent. This is not only true of stigmatized accents but even patrician ones. The NY upper class accent (e.g. George Plimpton) is also virtually extinct.

    At Rice in late 1970s, my classmates from Houston tended to have less overtly Texan accents than their brothers who went to, say, Texas A&M.

    • Replies: @JudgeSmails

    At Rice in late 1970s, my classmates from Houston tended to have less overtly Texan accents than their brothers who went to, say, Texas A&M.
     
    Not too long ago I began corresponding with a Texas woman via email (yes, we met online). After a few exchanges she included her phone number and invited me to call her. I said I would and that I was looking forward to hearing her Texas twang.

    No twang.
  151. @Jack D

    We didn’t refuse to learn English like many Hispanics do.
     
    TBH, in the olden days there were some (especially older immigrants and especially women who did not work outside the home) who never learned much beyond broken English. If you lived in an Italian ghetto you could have most of your needs fulfilled without ever having to speak English. If English was required, you could enlist one of your kids as a translator - THEY all went to school and learned English ASAP.

    The difference between today's Hispanics and Italians is that the pipeline from Italy eventually went dry and the old people died off. The other difference is that given cell phones and (for legal immigrants) cheap plane tickets, the connections to back home are maintained much more strongly. In the old days you might leave and never see your family again and maybe send or receive a letter a few times/year.

    Italians immigrants weren’t terribly adept at learning English. I guess most of the Dutch, German, and Scandinavian immigrants spoke a language closer to English so picked up English earlier.

    • Replies: @Hail
    It's surely a function of what kind of language community a person enters on arrival (or grows up in, in some cases). Those with 1880s-to-1910s-era-arrival ancestors have (or can find, if they do genealogy) stories of ancestors who never really learned English, particularly women. I certainly have cases like this, among both Scandinavian and German ancestors.

    As for Italians, it's likely that Tom Tancredo's ancestor father, who somehow ended up alone in a small town in Colorado, thus bypassing the big Italian areas of urban cities in the east, learned English well. (The Tancredo family also ended up Presbyterian.)

    , @Corvinus
    "Italians immigrants weren’t terribly adept at learning English."

    Context matters. Refer to pages 82-85.

    https://scholarworks.umb.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1155&context=masters_theses

    "I guess most of the Dutch, German, and Scandinavian immigrants spoke a language closer to English so picked up English earlier"

    Not necessarily.

    https://news.wisc.edu/study-debunks-myth-that-early-immigrants-quickly-learned-english/
  152. @Old Palo Altan
    You are correct: such accents were indeed much more a question of schools than class alone.
    FDR spoke with a Groton accent, as did my grandmother's cousin Joseph Clark Grew, whom I mention because he, like Roosevelt, can be listened to on Youtube.

    Nelson Rockefeller (whose first wife was another Clark cousin) went to an experimental school in New York City; in other words, one not based on class. His wife's cousin Senator Joe Clark of Pennsylvania spoke with that "St. Grottelsex" voice (i.e., St Paul's, Groton, and Middlesex), but in a less obvious way than those a generation older.

    The children of my aunt (mentioned in a post just before this one) went to Lawrenceville and Choate for the boys, and the Masters School and Miss Porter's for the girls. None of them speak as their parent's did, except perhaps , and curiously, for the youngest, but he was always a self-aware little fellow.

    I have a number of friends and now even family members who went to these places from the 1960s onward and not a one of them has any hint of the old St. Grottelsex pronunciation. It is well and truly extinct as far as I can tell.

  153. @Jonathan Mason

    Italians in America at one time occupied more or less the niche currently occupied by Mexicans.
     
    Italians were strongly associated with organized crime, bootlegging, and gambling, and with entertainment. Sinatra was just one of many popular Italian-American entertainers of his era.

    It could be that Italian men were seen as more of the Latin lover type. That's amore!

    The War in Italy, 1943-45, made Americans wildly enthusiastic about Italian singers, movie queens, and cuisine. I don’t really understand the connection, but it seems to have happened.

    It’s a little bit like the Tiki craze that servicemen brought home from the War in the Pacific, although that had only a few beneficiaries like singer Don Ho.

  154. @Steve Sailer
    Italians immigrants weren't terribly adept at learning English. I guess most of the Dutch, German, and Scandinavian immigrants spoke a language closer to English so picked up English earlier.

    It’s surely a function of what kind of language community a person enters on arrival (or grows up in, in some cases). Those with 1880s-to-1910s-era-arrival ancestors have (or can find, if they do genealogy) stories of ancestors who never really learned English, particularly women. I certainly have cases like this, among both Scandinavian and German ancestors.

    As for Italians, it’s likely that Tom Tancredo’s ancestor father, who somehow ended up alone in a small town in Colorado, thus bypassing the big Italian areas of urban cities in the east, learned English well. (The Tancredo family also ended up Presbyterian.)

    • Replies: @Hail
    And then, in that unfortunate two-year period between 1917 and 1918, 95%+ of multi-generational foreign-language acquisition that was going on on US soil was clubbed to half to death, collapsed, lay bleeding a while, and then died. (Ostensibly an attack on symbols of Germanism, IMO it actually took down all the foreign languages -- much faster and more totally than they would have faded naturally.)

    By just ten years later [?] (late 1920s), the share of US-born people with non-English-language ancestry of any kind who were actively 'inheriting' significant amounts of their ancestral language, either through the home or other means, was way down on its 1910s level. But not entirely gone.

    By twenty, twenty-five years after the 1917-1918 discontinuity (ca. early 1940s), though, it was nearly gone. US-born people who were young in this period were no longer able to hold a conversation, on even a small child's level in (any of) their ancestral language(s), unless they made an effort to study it in school or the like. Maybe they got few words or expressions, at most.

    This phenomenon is probably remarkable to Europeans, who have such well-established language minorities.

  155. @Hail
    It's surely a function of what kind of language community a person enters on arrival (or grows up in, in some cases). Those with 1880s-to-1910s-era-arrival ancestors have (or can find, if they do genealogy) stories of ancestors who never really learned English, particularly women. I certainly have cases like this, among both Scandinavian and German ancestors.

    As for Italians, it's likely that Tom Tancredo's ancestor father, who somehow ended up alone in a small town in Colorado, thus bypassing the big Italian areas of urban cities in the east, learned English well. (The Tancredo family also ended up Presbyterian.)

    And then, in that unfortunate two-year period between 1917 and 1918, 95%+ of multi-generational foreign-language acquisition that was going on on US soil was clubbed to half to death, collapsed, lay bleeding a while, and then died. (Ostensibly an attack on symbols of Germanism, IMO it actually took down all the foreign languages — much faster and more totally than they would have faded naturally.)

    By just ten years later [?] (late 1920s), the share of US-born people with non-English-language ancestry of any kind who were actively ‘inheriting’ significant amounts of their ancestral language, either through the home or other means, was way down on its 1910s level. But not entirely gone.

    By twenty, twenty-five years after the 1917-1918 discontinuity (ca. early 1940s), though, it was nearly gone. US-born people who were young in this period were no longer able to hold a conversation, on even a small child’s level in (any of) their ancestral language(s), unless they made an effort to study it in school or the like. Maybe they got few words or expressions, at most.

    This phenomenon is probably remarkable to Europeans, who have such well-established language minorities.

    • Replies: @syonredux

    And then, in that unfortunate two-year period between 1917 and 1918, 95%+ of multi-generational foreign-language acquisition that was going on on US soil was clubbed to half to death, collapsed, lay bleeding a while, and then died. (Ostensibly an attack on symbols of Germanism, IMO it actually took down all the foreign languages — much faster and more totally than they would have faded naturally.)
     
    Had to be done. It was a threat to national cohesion. If only our current ruling class had the same sentiments....
    , @Kronos
    Just remember:

    https://i.pinimg.com/736x/28/c0/f6/28c0f63667c80ddca352260529e8af22.jpg
  156. @Art Deco
    The NY upper class accent (e.g. George Plimpton) is also virtually extinct.

    I think that sort of speech was associated with certain boarding schools and finishing schools and was never very common. Known my share of New York patricians, but never met one person born after 1932 who displayed a variant of buckleyspeech, and not many from previous cohorts. Nelson Rockefeller had no such accent and there was only a hint of it in Franklin Roosevelt.

    and there was only a hint of it in Franklin Roosevelt.

    More than a hint, I would say:

    Eleanor’s Northeastern patrician accent was quite strong:

    TR’s was also quite evident:

    And here are a couple of Boston Brahmin’s

  157. @Art Deco
    The NY upper class accent (e.g. George Plimpton) is also virtually extinct.

    I think that sort of speech was associated with certain boarding schools and finishing schools and was never very common. Known my share of New York patricians, but never met one person born after 1932 who displayed a variant of buckleyspeech, and not many from previous cohorts. Nelson Rockefeller had no such accent and there was only a hint of it in Franklin Roosevelt.

    Here’s an interesting comparison:

    Henry Cabot Lodge (1850-1924)

    and his grandson, Henry Cabot Lodge, jr (1902-1985)

  158. @Hail
    And then, in that unfortunate two-year period between 1917 and 1918, 95%+ of multi-generational foreign-language acquisition that was going on on US soil was clubbed to half to death, collapsed, lay bleeding a while, and then died. (Ostensibly an attack on symbols of Germanism, IMO it actually took down all the foreign languages -- much faster and more totally than they would have faded naturally.)

    By just ten years later [?] (late 1920s), the share of US-born people with non-English-language ancestry of any kind who were actively 'inheriting' significant amounts of their ancestral language, either through the home or other means, was way down on its 1910s level. But not entirely gone.

    By twenty, twenty-five years after the 1917-1918 discontinuity (ca. early 1940s), though, it was nearly gone. US-born people who were young in this period were no longer able to hold a conversation, on even a small child's level in (any of) their ancestral language(s), unless they made an effort to study it in school or the like. Maybe they got few words or expressions, at most.

    This phenomenon is probably remarkable to Europeans, who have such well-established language minorities.

    And then, in that unfortunate two-year period between 1917 and 1918, 95%+ of multi-generational foreign-language acquisition that was going on on US soil was clubbed to half to death, collapsed, lay bleeding a while, and then died. (Ostensibly an attack on symbols of Germanism, IMO it actually took down all the foreign languages — much faster and more totally than they would have faded naturally.)

    Had to be done. It was a threat to national cohesion. If only our current ruling class had the same sentiments….

    • Replies: @Hail
    I'd say ancestral identity among Whites still majorly influences US politics today, even sans any real foreign-language inheritance for at least three generations now.
  159. @Cagey Beast
    There's at least one First Nations snark machine in Canada who is convinced Italians are White:
    https://twitter.com/rjjago/status/1183261868221071362?s=20

    Did he paddle there in a dugout canoe, or fly in a tin bird?

    • Agree: Cagey Beast
    • Replies: @Autochthon
    Equally important: did he actually confront and defeat the Italians running the place, subjugating them in a violent conquest, or did he just surreptitiously slap a smart-assed sticker on a door and quickly leave? Because I am pretty sure if Columbus had planted a tiny flag on an outcrop, unobserved by any Amerindian, then sailed back to Spain, he would not be half as famous as he is today.
  160. @syonredux

    And then, in that unfortunate two-year period between 1917 and 1918, 95%+ of multi-generational foreign-language acquisition that was going on on US soil was clubbed to half to death, collapsed, lay bleeding a while, and then died. (Ostensibly an attack on symbols of Germanism, IMO it actually took down all the foreign languages — much faster and more totally than they would have faded naturally.)
     
    Had to be done. It was a threat to national cohesion. If only our current ruling class had the same sentiments....

    I’d say ancestral identity among Whites still majorly influences US politics today, even sans any real foreign-language inheritance for at least three generations now.

    • Replies: @syonredux

    I’d say ancestral identity among Whites still majorly influences US politics today, even sans any real foreign-language inheritance for at least three generations now.
     
    It's definitely still a factor. But it's less potent than it would have been if the WASP elite hadn't crushed the nascent multi-cultural movement that was gathering strength in the USA during the period 1900-1917*. As I said upthread, it's too bad that our ruling class has lost the will for that kind of Kulturkampf....


    *https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horace_Kallen

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randolph_Bourne
  161. @216
    https://twitter.com/TimesLIVE/status/1183291019212869633

    KZN councillor Khaya Sithole was gunned down in full view of his constituents.

    That kind of stuff happens all the time in those sithole countries.

  162. @Johann Ricke

    They were different people who often spoke strange languages.
     
    News to me that the Irish were different people or that Irish-accented English was a strange language.

    Many Irish immigrants would have spoken Gaelic. The potato famine was very severe in the Gaelic speaking regions and led to very heavy emigration from those regions

    • Replies: @theoldnorth
    Some of my 19th century Irish ancestors spoke Irish (Gaelic) as their mother tongue, but also spoke English fluently (I would imagine from childhood). It would surprise me if there were very many monolingual Irish speakers immigrating to America in the 19th century.
  163. @Jack D

    I constantly hear from friends and colleagues who struggle with their stigmatized accents (NYC, Southern, etc). It’s a tough world out there….
     
    I think it's getting tougher. Until fairly recently it was common to find even well educated people who had strong regional accents and this was considered acceptable. Feynman had one hell of a Brooklyn/Queens accent. Shelby Foote sounded like he was the reincarnation of Robert E. Lee (despite being Halachically Jewish - go figure). But nowadays it is a mark of being well educated not to have a regional accent. This is not only true of stigmatized accents but even patrician ones. The NY upper class accent (e.g. George Plimpton) is also virtually extinct.

    Article on Shelby Foote states that the Greenville Country Club membership contained
    more Jewish members than Baptist members ….

    https://gardenandgun.com/articles/shelby-footes-war-story/

  164. @Hail
    I'd say ancestral identity among Whites still majorly influences US politics today, even sans any real foreign-language inheritance for at least three generations now.

    I’d say ancestral identity among Whites still majorly influences US politics today, even sans any real foreign-language inheritance for at least three generations now.

    It’s definitely still a factor. But it’s less potent than it would have been if the WASP elite hadn’t crushed the nascent multi-cultural movement that was gathering strength in the USA during the period 1900-1917*. As I said upthread, it’s too bad that our ruling class has lost the will for that kind of Kulturkampf….

    *https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horace_Kallen

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randolph_Bourne

  165. @Hail
    And then, in that unfortunate two-year period between 1917 and 1918, 95%+ of multi-generational foreign-language acquisition that was going on on US soil was clubbed to half to death, collapsed, lay bleeding a while, and then died. (Ostensibly an attack on symbols of Germanism, IMO it actually took down all the foreign languages -- much faster and more totally than they would have faded naturally.)

    By just ten years later [?] (late 1920s), the share of US-born people with non-English-language ancestry of any kind who were actively 'inheriting' significant amounts of their ancestral language, either through the home or other means, was way down on its 1910s level. But not entirely gone.

    By twenty, twenty-five years after the 1917-1918 discontinuity (ca. early 1940s), though, it was nearly gone. US-born people who were young in this period were no longer able to hold a conversation, on even a small child's level in (any of) their ancestral language(s), unless they made an effort to study it in school or the like. Maybe they got few words or expressions, at most.

    This phenomenon is probably remarkable to Europeans, who have such well-established language minorities.

    Just remember:

    • LOL: Hail
  166. @Art Deco
    Italians were strongly associated with organized crime, bootlegging, and gambling, and with entertainment. Sinatra was just one of many popular Italian-American entertainers of his era.

    The Mafia is an Italian organization, but it's a small sliver of the ethnic Italian population. When Rudolph Giuliani was burning up the rubber prosecuting the Five Families ca. 1986, the Justice Department calculated that there were just 1,700 'made guys'.

    In this book, it talked about how Mafias were very much a southern Italian thing. Northern Italians (like Mussolini) tried to stamp them out during the 1920s onward.

  167. @Steve Sailer
    At Rice in late 1970s, my classmates from Houston tended to have less overtly Texan accents than their brothers who went to, say, Texas A&M.

    At Rice in late 1970s, my classmates from Houston tended to have less overtly Texan accents than their brothers who went to, say, Texas A&M.

    Not too long ago I began corresponding with a Texas woman via email (yes, we met online). After a few exchanges she included her phone number and invited me to call her. I said I would and that I was looking forward to hearing her Texas twang.

    No twang.

  168. @Jack D

    We didn’t refuse to learn English like many Hispanics do.
     
    TBH, in the olden days there were some (especially older immigrants and especially women who did not work outside the home) who never learned much beyond broken English. If you lived in an Italian ghetto you could have most of your needs fulfilled without ever having to speak English. If English was required, you could enlist one of your kids as a translator - THEY all went to school and learned English ASAP.

    The difference between today's Hispanics and Italians is that the pipeline from Italy eventually went dry and the old people died off. The other difference is that given cell phones and (for legal immigrants) cheap plane tickets, the connections to back home are maintained much more strongly. In the old days you might leave and never see your family again and maybe send or receive a letter a few times/year.

    As you say, my grandparents’ English was never good, but once my Dad was school age, he was forbidden from speaking Italian at home.

    • Replies: @Hail
    What are your grandparents' and father's years of birth (approximate if you prefer)?
  169. @Wilkey

    The other difference is that given cell phones and (for legal immigrants) cheap plane tickets, the connections to back home are maintained much more strongly.
     
    Most of the immigrants I know, including most of the so-called "refugees," make annual visits to the old country.

    most of the so-called “refugees” [whom I know] make annual visits to the old country.

    I wonder which (sort of) countries you mean.

    Speaking of which — Do we know how many times Ilhan Omar has been back to Somalia?

  170. @Art Deco
    Henry Hill was a made guy, awarded that status for a lucrative robbery he pulled off in 1968. (His mother was Italian). The mafia has 'associates' who can rise in the organization. Not sure what the ratio of associates to made guys is.

    It’s not clear how authoritative Wikipedia is on this subject, but there’s an explicit mention of Henry Hill:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Made_man
    [Traditionally, in the Italian-American Mafia, to become a made man, the inductee had to be a male of full Italian descent.[2] For example, famous Lucchese family associate Henry Hill, portrayed in the 1990 film Goodfellas, was unable to become a made man despite his extensive Mafia career and even his mother being of Sicilian descent, because Hill’s father was of Irish descent. Today, it is believed that the Italian-American Mafia has loosened this requirement so that males of half-Italian descent through their father’s line can also be inducted. According to Salvatore Vitale, it was decided during a Commission meeting in 2000 to restore the rule requiring both parents to be of Italian descent;[3] however, this rule was explicitly for the Five Families in New York City, and in practice the rule may be overlooked even in New York City in certain cases. Because an increased number of third- and fourth-generation Italian Americans have some non-Italian ancestry (due to the mixing of ethnic groups in the United States), having an Italian surname seems to have become the prerequisite for Mafia membership. Examples of made members who are not of full Italian descent include the son of Italian-American mobster John Gotti, John A. Gotti, whose maternal grandmother was Russian; and Frank Salemme of the New England Patriarca crime family, whose mother was of Irish descent while his father was of Italian descent. In other cases, partially Italian-American associates have hidden their non-Italian heritage to become made men, as in the case of Scarfo crime family soldier and made man Andrew Thomas DelGiorno, who was of Polish and Italian descent but managed to conceal his Polish heritage on his mother’s side and was therefore inducted into the Philadelphia Mafia. ]

  171. @Cloudbuster
    As you say, my grandparents' English was never good, but once my Dad was school age, he was forbidden from speaking Italian at home.

    What are your grandparents’ and father’s years of birth (approximate if you prefer)?

  172. @Jack D

    I constantly hear from friends and colleagues who struggle with their stigmatized accents (NYC, Southern, etc). It’s a tough world out there….
     
    I think it's getting tougher. Until fairly recently it was common to find even well educated people who had strong regional accents and this was considered acceptable. Feynman had one hell of a Brooklyn/Queens accent. Shelby Foote sounded like he was the reincarnation of Robert E. Lee (despite being Halachically Jewish - go figure). But nowadays it is a mark of being well educated not to have a regional accent. This is not only true of stigmatized accents but even patrician ones. The NY upper class accent (e.g. George Plimpton) is also virtually extinct.

    Yes, there is definitely a stigma attached to certain accents. Having relatives from the South and having lived most of my life there, I’ve never fallen prey to the “southern accent = dumb” prejudice, even though I’ve never had that accent myself. But a prejudice I do find myself needing to fight is against NY accents. I hear one and my first impulse is think “that person is an a-hole” until they prove otherwise.

  173. @Realist

    In other words, I guess, TNC wants to imply that blacks are authentically black, but whites all have a touch of the tar brush.
     
    Not me. My 23andMe results show White as the driven snow (as do my results from Ancestry and FTDNA) . All northwestern European.

    It’s interesting to browse profiles on 23andMe of very distant cousins, which is almost like looking at a random sample. I’ve noticed most of my DNA relatives get 0.0% Subsaharan (as I do). Those who get anything beyond a trivially low amount (0.1%, 0.2%) tend to have a Latin American grandparent.

    I have someone who 23andMe predicts may be my fourth cousin, who gets (roughly):
    – 63.5% NW European
    – 16% Spanish & Portuguese,
    – 1.5% Other & Broadly South European,
    – 5.5% Broadly European,

    – 1% West Asian & North African,
    – 9% Jewish,

    – 1.5% Subsaharan,
    – 0.5% Amerind,
    – 1% Unassigned (I’d guess this is also Amerind),

    This (1.5%) is the highest % Subsaharan I recall seeing among 23andMe DNA relatives. It looks very likely,that this person has 2 of 8 ‘Hispanic’ great-grandparents (perhaps largely of old-stock White Mexican descent in the US West?), 1 of 8 great-grandparents primarily Jewish (three-quarters), and 5 of 8 NW-European-origin great-grandparents. It is on one of those latter branches my own link to the person comes in, at some distant time in the 19th century.

    The person’s 2 of 8 Hispanic great-grandparents would have averaged 6% Subsaharan (.015/.25) and 4-6% Amerind, which I think is typical for White Mexicans. Blend that with the 0%-Subsaharan 6 other great-grandparents, and the person winds up with the 1.5% Subsaharan.

    I got 0.0% Subsaharan, 0.0% Amerind, 0.0% East Asian (an early version had 0.1% Yakut, I think), and 0.0% Jewish My case is typical among distant cousins whose profiles I’ve seen.

    • Replies: @Realist
    Your case is very similar to mine, except my goal was genealogy so my interest was contact with 2nd-4th cousins to obtain family tree information.

    My results show:

    British and Irish 53.7%
    Scandinavian 22.5%
    French and German 5.4%
    Broadly Northwestern European 17.3%
    Broadly Southern European 0.3%
    Broadly European 0.7%
    Unassigned 0.1%

    I developed a strong interest in genealogy about 12 years ago. Fortunately relatives on my maternal side, some years before, decided to do their genealogy the old fashioned way. They traced our ancestors movement west through document trails, such as land purchases, tax payments, newspaper clippings, etc. This gave me a great base to start from. By using my DNA results from 23andMe, FTDNA and Ancestry I was able to produce a pretty extensive family tree.
  174. @Ancient Briton
    Did he paddle there in a dugout canoe, or fly in a tin bird?

    Equally important: did he actually confront and defeat the Italians running the place, subjugating them in a violent conquest, or did he just surreptitiously slap a smart-assed sticker on a door and quickly leave? Because I am pretty sure if Columbus had planted a tiny flag on an outcrop, unobserved by any Amerindian, then sailed back to Spain, he would not be half as famous as he is today.

  175. @Hail
    It's interesting to browse profiles on 23andMe of very distant cousins, which is almost like looking at a random sample. I've noticed most of my DNA relatives get 0.0% Subsaharan (as I do). Those who get anything beyond a trivially low amount (0.1%, 0.2%) tend to have a Latin American grandparent.

    I have someone who 23andMe predicts may be my fourth cousin, who gets (roughly):
    - 63.5% NW European
    - 16% Spanish & Portuguese,
    - 1.5% Other & Broadly South European,
    - 5.5% Broadly European,

    - 1% West Asian & North African,
    - 9% Jewish,

    - 1.5% Subsaharan,
    - 0.5% Amerind,
    - 1% Unassigned (I'd guess this is also Amerind),

    This (1.5%) is the highest % Subsaharan I recall seeing among 23andMe DNA relatives. It looks very likely,that this person has 2 of 8 'Hispanic' great-grandparents (perhaps largely of old-stock White Mexican descent in the US West?), 1 of 8 great-grandparents primarily Jewish (three-quarters), and 5 of 8 NW-European-origin great-grandparents. It is on one of those latter branches my own link to the person comes in, at some distant time in the 19th century.

    The person's 2 of 8 Hispanic great-grandparents would have averaged 6% Subsaharan (.015/.25) and 4-6% Amerind, which I think is typical for White Mexicans. Blend that with the 0%-Subsaharan 6 other great-grandparents, and the person winds up with the 1.5% Subsaharan.

    I got 0.0% Subsaharan, 0.0% Amerind, 0.0% East Asian (an early version had 0.1% Yakut, I think), and 0.0% Jewish My case is typical among distant cousins whose profiles I've seen.

    Your case is very similar to mine, except my goal was genealogy so my interest was contact with 2nd-4th cousins to obtain family tree information.

    My results show:

    British and Irish 53.7%
    Scandinavian 22.5%
    French and German 5.4%
    Broadly Northwestern European 17.3%
    Broadly Southern European 0.3%
    Broadly European 0.7%
    Unassigned 0.1%

    I developed a strong interest in genealogy about 12 years ago. Fortunately relatives on my maternal side, some years before, decided to do their genealogy the old fashioned way. They traced our ancestors movement west through document trails, such as land purchases, tax payments, newspaper clippings, etc. This gave me a great base to start from. By using my DNA results from 23andMe, FTDNA and Ancestry I was able to produce a pretty extensive family tree.

  176. @Jonathan Mason

    In this case, it’s also a strongly stigmatized pronunciation. Use it, and people will think less of you. It’s not fair, but that’s the way it is.
     
    It is actually a class marker, more than anything. And only people who are judgmental will give it any though, like, perhaps, school teachers.

    But we live in an era when such things have less and less importance attached to them. People like George W. Bush would probably use 'axe' if they felt like it and wanted to sound common.

    Futurama had fun with this:

    One word everybody has a problem with is “comfortable.” Nobody says comfortable; they say comfterble. If we tracked the spelling, it’s a clunky combination of the “f” with the front teeth and lower lip, the “or” at the back of the throat, and then back to the front with the tip of the tongue and roof of the mouth for the “t.” So instead, everybody just puts the “front-mouth” letters together followed by the “back-mouth” letters.

    “Ask” is pretty easy though, so “aks” is perceived as declasse’ ghetto black. Like “skreet” instead of “street.”

  177. @Old Palo Altan
    You are correct: such accents were indeed much more a question of schools than class alone.
    FDR spoke with a Groton accent, as did my grandmother's cousin Joseph Clark Grew, whom I mention because he, like Roosevelt, can be listened to on Youtube.

    Nelson Rockefeller (whose first wife was another Clark cousin) went to an experimental school in New York City; in other words, one not based on class. His wife's cousin Senator Joe Clark of Pennsylvania spoke with that "St. Grottelsex" voice (i.e., St Paul's, Groton, and Middlesex), but in a less obvious way than those a generation older.

    The children of my aunt (mentioned in a post just before this one) went to Lawrenceville and Choate for the boys, and the Masters School and Miss Porter's for the girls. None of them speak as their parent's did, except perhaps , and curiously, for the youngest, but he was always a self-aware little fellow.

    I went to Choate in the early ‘80s and don’t have that accent, but my Aunt, 92, from North Carolina had it, and you can still hear it a bit in her daughters, my cousins, who went to Madeira. My Aunt went to public school in Winston Salem so for her just an affectation she thoroughly adopted.

    I don’t have much accent but being raised in New Jersey by North Carolinians I pronounce my A’s in words like marry and carry like the A in “asshole”, whereas down South it’s usually pronounced like in merry or ferry, or air.

    My wife is from Latvia but has been in NY for 20 years since she was 18. She pronounces coffee “cawfee”. Very nyc grating.

    • Replies: @Old Palo Altan
    Most interesting, thank you.

    I've two female cousins (this time on my father's side) who were at Madeira in the 1990s. It is a very small school, so they would undoubtedly have known your cousins if they were there at around the same time.

    They both live in a far western state now, so I rather doubt that they have kept anything of that particular drawl which Madeira seems to inculcate. I knew a young lady from there here in North Britain who would have left there around 2005, and she had it too. Quite attractive I thought.

  178. @Anonymous
    There's a distinctive black accent in the UK, the idea that they mostly speak with regional British accents is not true for the most part. In fact I have a hard time imagining a black person speaking with Yorkshire accent and slang, sounds very unlikely to me.

    There’s a distinctive black accent in the UK, the idea that they mostly speak with regional British accents is not true for the most part. In fact I have a hard time imagining a black person speaking with Yorkshire accent and slang, sounds very unlikely to me.

    See the video I posted above for black Yorkshire. Also, I should add, there are numerous Pakistanis in Bradford and Keighley who speak with broad Yorkshire accents.

    And is this not typical of a London-born footballer?

  179. So (((whites))) are now promoting calling goym “whites”?

    Ouch.

    BTW, are trannies “women” or (((women)))?

    Or (.)men(.) and (*)women(*)?

    • Replies: @Hhsiii
    Charlie Williams:

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7WucumXbAsk
    , @Moses

    So (((whites))) are now promoting calling goym “whites”?
     
    Divide and conquer.
  180. @Houston 1992
    Many Irish immigrants would have spoken Gaelic. The potato famine was very severe in the Gaelic speaking regions and led to very heavy emigration from those regions

    Some of my 19th century Irish ancestors spoke Irish (Gaelic) as their mother tongue, but also spoke English fluently (I would imagine from childhood). It would surprise me if there were very many monolingual Irish speakers immigrating to America in the 19th century.

    • Replies: @houston 1992
    Yeatssociety.com supports that many Irish were bilingual by the 1840's...

    Famine:

    Despite a Pre-Famine population explosion that was in excess of the European norm,20 the population of Ireland fell dramatically in the post-famine period from 8 million people in 184621 to just under 4 million in 1911.22

    With 4 million Irish speakers in 1841 23 the numbers of people able to speak Irish as their first language fell to 680,000 by 1891.24 These stark figures illustrate well the shocking decline in the Irish language in a short period. As it struggled to survive, the embrace of the English language offered an alternative existence to the ravages of famine!

    Rates of emigration accelerated during the famine decade with many families being assisted by the British government as well as landlords, to take the coffin ships to North America. 25 Assisted emigration amounted to 10% of all ‘post famine emigrants’ and ‘was often eagerly sought.’26 Unlike other European nationalities, Irish emigrants had a low return rate of 8% between 1870 and 1921.27

    By 1890, 39% of those born in Ireland were living outside it.28 Even though they were Irish speakers many emigrants were also English speaking or familiar with the English language. Literacy rates were high with a reading ability of 47% in 1841 which reached 88% by 1911.29 As this increased the chance of employability, most emigration was to the English speaking world.30
  181. @Paleo Liberal
    Some of the objections to Italians, Irish and Jews etc were:

    1. They were not Protestants. There was certainly a bit of hostility between Catholics and Protestants, and between Christians and Jews. The Pope was a very powerful figure in the world, and many Americans thought the Catholic Church to be undemocratic.

    2. Many Southern and Eastern European cultures were low trust cultures. The idea of caveat emptor was antithetical to the idea of treating the customers well to get repeat business.

    3. Criminal gangs.

    4. Strange European ideas such as Anarchism and Marxism, often accompanied by violence.

    5. They were different people who often spoke strange languages.

    Note that I use the term strange to mean unfamiliar.

    Some of the objections to Italians, Irish and Jews etc were:

    They opposed Prohibition. Imagine that. What could be more un-American?

    The Germans in Wisconsin, Protestant as well as Catholic, Socialist as well as conservative, opposed it so strongly that in 1912 they were able to defeat women’s suffrage in a referendum*. Which the prim Scandinavians supported along with the WASPs.

    *And don’t blame this on a male electorate. Suffrage fared worse where women were included in the vote.

  182. @Art Deco
    He's published in The Atrophysical Journal and other venues, just not many articles. He runs a planetarium. The hostility to him here is bizarre.

    It’s not hostility, just dismissal.

  183. This has been going on a long time in the groid “community”–now the other persons of (fecal and urinary) color are jumping on board. Like the playground, when there’s a weakling, everyone piles on. Whites have become weaklings–and these people are feral beasts. Would you walk up to a grizzly bear in the wild and not expect it to act accordingly?

    Look at how it’s always “white male”–it’s “black man” etc and always “woman”, but “white male”–not by accident. Hell, even people on here automatically use it much of the time. Brainwashed. And don’t get me started on the nutless wonders who think it’s cute to call themselves or other white men “white boys”.

    Groids and their ilk are messed up in all sorts of ways, but at least they have self-respect. Even though it’s mostly undeserved. Whites all too often these days have done, even when deserving of it.

    That’s the problem. Fix it, and act accordingly afterwards, and problem solved.

  184. @Hark hark the snark
    Janet Flanner, the New Yorker journalist from years past, spoke with a posh Northeastern accent that you can hear on a particular YouTube video of a Dick Cavett show. The main event, though, on that show was the face-off between Gore Vidal and Norman Mailer. Incidentally, both o’ them boys spoke with a polished NYC-syle intellectual accent.

    Flanner was from Indiana and her posh NE accent must have been an affectation. She was also an example of how lesbians used to hide in plain sight. Here she is with Hemingway during the liberation of Paris:

    Hemingway is the one with the mustache.

    • Replies: @Old Palo Altan
    Not an affectation in Flanner's case: she is better described as an early example of the Mid-Atlantic accent, which was developed by the intellectual and artistic set which moved between New York and London (and in her case Paris) between the wars. This accent was picked up by Hollywood (originally Astoria on Long Island for Paramount) with the coming of the talkies: and why not, it was a clear and precise why of speaking which worked perfectly on the screen. Katherine Hepburn had it in the extreme, while Cary Grant (an Englishman after all) gave it his own beguiling twist.
    It should be noted that Flanner was on the fringes of the Algonquin Round Table, a good number of whose original members were upper class: Robert Benchley, Robert Emmet Sherwood and Heywood Broun for example. My grandfather, a public school educated Englishman, was part of it too - others of that ilk were P G Wodehouse, Guy Bolton, and Hassard Short. These people can be said to have been at the origin of this accent, which was later made world famous by Hollywood, a place they were all in various ways closely connected with in any case.

    I was amused to see that Flanner met her life-long lover on Fire Island and had her ashes strewn over the hamlet where this (for her) momentous event took place. Fire Island for me, in the early '60s, was Point O'Woods - the most exclusive part, magically so, and the only part to have remained largely untouched by the ravages of the various insanities of our age.
  185. @Jonathan Mason

    Until fairly recently it was common to find even well educated people who had strong regional accents and this was considered acceptable.
     
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Paol30bn0gM

    John Morgan is a PI lawyer. He can get away with this accent doing the kind of work that he does. It’s probably even an advantage in front of juries where he is seen as a man of the people vs. the Yankee insurance defense lawyers. His accent would not have been an advantage if he was interviewing for a job as an associate at a Big Law firm in a Northern city. Of course he gets the last laugh in that he makes a lot more than even a Big Law partner.

  186. @Jack D
    Flanner was from Indiana and her posh NE accent must have been an affectation. She was also an example of how lesbians used to hide in plain sight. Here she is with Hemingway during the liberation of Paris:

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/97/Flanners_und_Hemingwy.jpg

    Hemingway is the one with the mustache.

    Not an affectation in Flanner’s case: she is better described as an early example of the Mid-Atlantic accent, which was developed by the intellectual and artistic set which moved between New York and London (and in her case Paris) between the wars. This accent was picked up by Hollywood (originally Astoria on Long Island for Paramount) with the coming of the talkies: and why not, it was a clear and precise why of speaking which worked perfectly on the screen. Katherine Hepburn had it in the extreme, while Cary Grant (an Englishman after all) gave it his own beguiling twist.
    It should be noted that Flanner was on the fringes of the Algonquin Round Table, a good number of whose original members were upper class: Robert Benchley, Robert Emmet Sherwood and Heywood Broun for example. My grandfather, a public school educated Englishman, was part of it too – others of that ilk were P G Wodehouse, Guy Bolton, and Hassard Short. These people can be said to have been at the origin of this accent, which was later made world famous by Hollywood, a place they were all in various ways closely connected with in any case.

    I was amused to see that Flanner met her life-long lover on Fire Island and had her ashes strewn over the hamlet where this (for her) momentous event took place. Fire Island for me, in the early ’60s, was Point O’Woods – the most exclusive part, magically so, and the only part to have remained largely untouched by the ravages of the various insanities of our age.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    In my book, if you speak differently as an adult than you did when you were 21, it's an affectation. I don't mean improving your grammar or vocabulary, I mean only accent.
  187. @El Dato

    Which, logically, is self-defeating.
     
    ...but it's truly just "self-defeating".

    We recently learned that blacks getting ahead (in school or otherwise) are actually holding blacks back because they just be "acting white".

    Self-defeat is a feature.

    Interesting article though. Having some Italian family, I know that when Italians immigrate, there will be trouble. That's how it is.

    Signalling!

    The Times was not owned by the family that controls it today when it dismissed Ida B. Wells as a “slanderous and nasty-minded mulattress” for rightly describing rape allegations as “a thread bare lie” that Southerners used against black men who had consensual sexual relationships with white women [I wonder who made those rape allegations]. Nevertheless, as a Times editorialist of nearly 30 years standing — and a student of the institution’s history — I am outraged and appalled by the nakedly racist treatment my 19th-century predecessors displayed in writing about African-Americans and Italian immigrants.
     
    Opening the door to dangerous badthink!

    Harrison’s Columbus Day proclamation in 1892 opened the door for Italian-Americans to write themselves into the American origin story, in a fashion that piled myth upon myth. As the historian Danielle Battisti shows in “Whom We Shall Welcome,” they rewrote history by casting Columbus as “the first immigrant” — even though he never set foot in North America and never immigrated anywhere (except possibly to Spain), and even though the United States did not exist as a nation during his 15th-century voyage. The mythologizing, carried out over many decades, granted Italian-Americans “a formative role in the nation-building narrative.” It also tied Italian-Americans closely to the paternalistic assertion, still heard today, that Columbus “discovered” a continent that was already inhabited by Native Americans.

     

    Weird, hurried and inapposite conclusion!

    This shows yet again how racial categories that people mistakenly view as matters of biology grow out of highly politicized myth making.
     
    THE END!

    Having some Italian family, I know that when Italians immigrate, there will be trouble

    A lot of immigrants came from Sicily. Are Sicilians really Italian?
    Asking for a friend.

  188. @Hhsiii
    I went to Choate in the early ‘80s and don’t have that accent, but my Aunt, 92, from North Carolina had it, and you can still hear it a bit in her daughters, my cousins, who went to Madeira. My Aunt went to public school in Winston Salem so for her just an affectation she thoroughly adopted.

    I don’t have much accent but being raised in New Jersey by North Carolinians I pronounce my A’s in words like marry and carry like the A in “asshole”, whereas down South it’s usually pronounced like in merry or ferry, or air.

    My wife is from Latvia but has been in NY for 20 years since she was 18. She pronounces coffee “cawfee”. Very nyc grating.

    Most interesting, thank you.

    I’ve two female cousins (this time on my father’s side) who were at Madeira in the 1990s. It is a very small school, so they would undoubtedly have known your cousins if they were there at around the same time.

    They both live in a far western state now, so I rather doubt that they have kept anything of that particular drawl which Madeira seems to inculcate. I knew a young lady from there here in North Britain who would have left there around 2005, and she had it too. Quite attractive I thought.

    • Replies: @Hhsiii
    My cousins were class of ‘81 and ‘83. Their head mistress was the one who shot her boyfriend.
  189. @Old Palo Altan
    Not an affectation in Flanner's case: she is better described as an early example of the Mid-Atlantic accent, which was developed by the intellectual and artistic set which moved between New York and London (and in her case Paris) between the wars. This accent was picked up by Hollywood (originally Astoria on Long Island for Paramount) with the coming of the talkies: and why not, it was a clear and precise why of speaking which worked perfectly on the screen. Katherine Hepburn had it in the extreme, while Cary Grant (an Englishman after all) gave it his own beguiling twist.
    It should be noted that Flanner was on the fringes of the Algonquin Round Table, a good number of whose original members were upper class: Robert Benchley, Robert Emmet Sherwood and Heywood Broun for example. My grandfather, a public school educated Englishman, was part of it too - others of that ilk were P G Wodehouse, Guy Bolton, and Hassard Short. These people can be said to have been at the origin of this accent, which was later made world famous by Hollywood, a place they were all in various ways closely connected with in any case.

    I was amused to see that Flanner met her life-long lover on Fire Island and had her ashes strewn over the hamlet where this (for her) momentous event took place. Fire Island for me, in the early '60s, was Point O'Woods - the most exclusive part, magically so, and the only part to have remained largely untouched by the ravages of the various insanities of our age.

    In my book, if you speak differently as an adult than you did when you were 21, it’s an affectation. I don’t mean improving your grammar or vocabulary, I mean only accent.

    • Replies: @Old Palo Altan
    In general, I quite agree with you. Here in Britain, I rate Americans as affected if, having come here at 21 or so, they begin in short order to sound like Old Etonians (for some reason they never end up sounding like state school products). But if they came as children or teenagers I give them the benefit of the doubt.

    But in this case and those like it I think we see a general osmosis within a group of very like-minded people who basically consorted with nobody else throughout their working and playing lives - and the Round Table was where they did their playing.

    It just happened.
  190. @Jack D
    In my book, if you speak differently as an adult than you did when you were 21, it's an affectation. I don't mean improving your grammar or vocabulary, I mean only accent.

    In general, I quite agree with you. Here in Britain, I rate Americans as affected if, having come here at 21 or so, they begin in short order to sound like Old Etonians (for some reason they never end up sounding like state school products). But if they came as children or teenagers I give them the benefit of the doubt.

    But in this case and those like it I think we see a general osmosis within a group of very like-minded people who basically consorted with nobody else throughout their working and playing lives – and the Round Table was where they did their playing.

    It just happened.

    • Replies: @Johann Ricke

    Here in Britain, I rate Americans as affected if, having come here at 21 or so, they begin in short order to sound like Old Etonians (for some reason they never end up sounding like state school products). But if they came as children or teenagers I give them the benefit of the doubt.
     
    That's just trying to blend in, if they're in the UK. Whereas someone who does an Etonian accent, despite currently living and having spent his entire life stateside, is obviously uncomfortable in his own skin.
    , @Jack D
    A lot of NY intellectual life consists of small town boys and girls who have moved to the big city and
    who are play acting at being more sophisticated than they really are, including but not limited to taking on phony accents.

    But not only NY. Witness the stilted jargon of academia in the social sciences. No one graduates from high school writing in that unintelligible style - you have to study it and learn to spit it back.
    , @Jack D

    It just happened.
     
    I doubt this. I went back and listened to Flanner on the Cavett show and she crosses the centerline of the Atlantic and speaks in a phony Queen Victoria voice, like no girl from Indiana ever:

    "I am heah and I am becoming veddy veddy bored"

    https://youtu.be/Nb1w_qoioOk?t=761

    It requires conscious effort to row your accent all the way across the ocean to the other side.
  191. @Old Palo Altan
    In general, I quite agree with you. Here in Britain, I rate Americans as affected if, having come here at 21 or so, they begin in short order to sound like Old Etonians (for some reason they never end up sounding like state school products). But if they came as children or teenagers I give them the benefit of the doubt.

    But in this case and those like it I think we see a general osmosis within a group of very like-minded people who basically consorted with nobody else throughout their working and playing lives - and the Round Table was where they did their playing.

    It just happened.

    Here in Britain, I rate Americans as affected if, having come here at 21 or so, they begin in short order to sound like Old Etonians (for some reason they never end up sounding like state school products). But if they came as children or teenagers I give them the benefit of the doubt.

    That’s just trying to blend in, if they’re in the UK. Whereas someone who does an Etonian accent, despite currently living and having spent his entire life stateside, is obviously uncomfortable in his own skin.

  192. anon[382] • Disclaimer says:

    Internal dispute or no, running down a man with an automobile? WTF kind of folk are these Antifa?

    They are people who desperately want to belong to something, as long as it isn’t American; and who believe that the end justifies the means. Neither condition is unique to Antifa, by any stretch.

    For example, in the PacNW they have seized on the symbol of the Iron Front from 1930’s Germany as their own. This has caused problems within Major League Soccer:

    https://www.foxnews.com/sports/antifas-iron-front-symbol-banned-by-major-league-soccers-portland-timbers-and-seattle-sounders

    It is ironic, because while the Iron Front was indeed anti-Nazi, it was also anti-Monarchist and anti-Communist — and therefore anti AntiFa.

    https://infogalactic.com/info/Iron_Front

  193. @Old Palo Altan
    In general, I quite agree with you. Here in Britain, I rate Americans as affected if, having come here at 21 or so, they begin in short order to sound like Old Etonians (for some reason they never end up sounding like state school products). But if they came as children or teenagers I give them the benefit of the doubt.

    But in this case and those like it I think we see a general osmosis within a group of very like-minded people who basically consorted with nobody else throughout their working and playing lives - and the Round Table was where they did their playing.

    It just happened.

    A lot of NY intellectual life consists of small town boys and girls who have moved to the big city and
    who are play acting at being more sophisticated than they really are, including but not limited to taking on phony accents.

    But not only NY. Witness the stilted jargon of academia in the social sciences. No one graduates from high school writing in that unintelligible style – you have to study it and learn to spit it back.

  194. @Jack D
    Yes and no. The David yes, Sicilian and Southern Italian peasant immigrants not so much.

    I have a friend whose father grew up in a Jersey shore resort community in the 30s. His dad said that while the Italians (unlike the blacks) attended the same school as the whites, they were treated as 2nd class citizens. For example all the Italian kids were assumed to be lice ridden and they would put kerosene in their hair as a "treatment".

    Italians in America at one time occupied more or less the niche currently occupied by Mexicans. They weren't black but they weren't quite white either. People had no problem distinguishing between high class Italians like Caruso or Valentino or Michaelangelo and Luigi the swarthy Sicilian guy who peddled fruit.

    “Italians in America at one time occupied more or less the niche currently occupied by Mexicans”

    Ah, so they received special government contracts set aside for non-whites and got affirmative action in college admissions? They got special government backed minority business loans? Do you have a source on that? Seriously dude, what the hell are you talking about?

    • Replies: @Jack D
    I mean they worked a lot in construction and agriculture, were Catholic and spoke a Latin language, ate a cuisine which was later widely adopted by other Americans, etc. You are describing how the government treats Mexicans, not the Mexicans themselves.
  195. @Old Palo Altan
    In general, I quite agree with you. Here in Britain, I rate Americans as affected if, having come here at 21 or so, they begin in short order to sound like Old Etonians (for some reason they never end up sounding like state school products). But if they came as children or teenagers I give them the benefit of the doubt.

    But in this case and those like it I think we see a general osmosis within a group of very like-minded people who basically consorted with nobody else throughout their working and playing lives - and the Round Table was where they did their playing.

    It just happened.

    It just happened.

    I doubt this. I went back and listened to Flanner on the Cavett show and she crosses the centerline of the Atlantic and speaks in a phony Queen Victoria voice, like no girl from Indiana ever:

    “I am heah and I am becoming veddy veddy bored”

    It requires conscious effort to row your accent all the way across the ocean to the other side.

  196. “In the future, white people will always be referred to as “white” people, while black people will be referred to as “Black bodies” with a capital B.”

    Did you ever NOTICE how Mr. Sailer chooses to abscond from substantively addressing the article and instead focus on snark? It was observably true that these “new immigrants” were in a racial and ethnic limbo, placed in a pecking order above the darkies and below “Heritage Americans”. It’s as if
    our intrepid host chooses to ignore certain relevant topics which squarely deal with HbD. Economist Robert F. Forester wrote in 1924, “in a country where the distinction between white man and black is intended as a distinction of value…it is no compliment to the Italian to deny him his whiteness, but that actually happens with considerable frequency.”

  197. @Senor Moose
    The scare quotes are meant to indicate the author’s awareness that “race is a social construct,” an important article of faith in academic circles that has now thoroughly filtered down to the woke drop-out lumpenproletariat (i.e., TNC). Hence the weird antiquarian interest in debates about whether people who are unquestionably European (Italians, Irish) are in fact “white.”

    The funny thing is that, per their faith that “race is a social construct,” wokesters are in the process of constructing a racial mega-category—“people of color.” It is a bold move: Whatever late nineteenth/early twentieth century Americans may have thought about the Italians and Irish, they are surely part of the same broader culture—cultural movements like the renaissance were pan-European, spreading from Italy to Northern Europe. By contrast, the notion that someone whose ancestors were brought to the US as slaves centuries ago has some shared identity with the descendant of upper caste Brahmins who came twenty years ago to go to medical school, simply because they are both “people of color,” is ludicrous. It is pure construction meant to tie together an otherwise very unstable coalition.

    I think we need to “interrogate” this “people of color” category, the same way wokesters want to “interrogate” what it means to be “white.” For instance, why can’t Italians be “people of color”? Why not (perish the thought!) Russians? Spaniards (the original Hispanics!)?

    Making the woke left elaborate on who is and who isn’t one of those glorious “people of color” can only enlighten the discourse.

    Now that was interrogation.

  198. @Wilkey

    For example all the Italian kids were assumed to be lice ridden and they would put kerosene in their hair as a “treatment”. Italians in America at one time occupied more or less the niche currently occupied by Mexicans. They weren’t black but they weren’t quite white either.
     
    Being despised and different from the majority and being "not white" aren't remotely the same. Hillbillies from Appalachia are different. Mormons are different. Okies in Depression-Era California were highly despised, but I doubt many people thought of them as "not white," except in the sense that they didn't appear to have the same standards or level of education as the vast majority of white people. That's applied to all kinds of white immigrant groups in the past - to Italians, who tended to be a wee bit duskier than other white Americans, and to the Irish, who were the same shade or even whiter.

    Even today some whites like to separate out the "good whites" from the "bad whites." But lacking a large white immigrant group to target they instead despise whites who hold more conservative values, or who live in the wrong part of the country (Flyover Country) or work in the wrong jobs.

    The desire to separate onseself from perceived riffraff is strong in a lot of people. Nevermind that the guy who you look down upon who has a "boring" job and lives in the wrong town may make twice as much as you with your Gender Studies degree and lives in the wrong town because his family lives there and he values his family above life in a glamorous zipcode.

    “Being despised and different from the majority and being “not white” aren’t remotely the same.”

    Actually, they was a direct link. Being Polish or Italian generally meant you were not the right type of white in the eyes of nativists, who viewed these two groups would dilute the gene pool. In a 1914 letter, William Davenport, a social worker, asked his brother Charles Davenport, a staunch proponent of eugenics, if Charles would help find room for an Italian laborer he knew. In response, Charles wrote a scathing four page letter. One of the sentiments was “I sometimes feel that the only thing is to leave the United States and go to a country like New Zealand or Australia which appreciate the importance of good blood…Excuse me, my dear brother, this rambling letter. You see the point is that, with the very great regret on my part, it would be out of the question.”

    p. 163, Guarded Gate: Bigotry, Eugenics and the Law That Kept Two Generations of Jews, Italians, and Other European Immigrants Out of America, Daniel Okrent

    Note how this political cartoon depicts Italians as being “rats” with African-like features–beady eyes, dark complexion–who would clearly ruin the “whiteness” of America if allowed to ingratiate themselves with the finer features of Anglo-Saxons.

    “Even today some whites like to separate out the “good whites” from the “bad whites.” But lacking a large white immigrant group to target they instead despise whites who hold more conservative values, or who live in the wrong part of the country (Flyover Country) or work in the wrong jobs.”

    You are conveniently ignoring how quite a few on the Alt Right also separate the “good whites” from the “bad whites”. You know, the whites who hold liberal values or who live in the wrong part of the country (East-West Coast) or work in the wrong jobs (intelligence community, college professors).

  199. @bigdicknick
    "Italians in America at one time occupied more or less the niche currently occupied by Mexicans"

    Ah, so they received special government contracts set aside for non-whites and got affirmative action in college admissions? They got special government backed minority business loans? Do you have a source on that? Seriously dude, what the hell are you talking about?

    I mean they worked a lot in construction and agriculture, were Catholic and spoke a Latin language, ate a cuisine which was later widely adopted by other Americans, etc. You are describing how the government treats Mexicans, not the Mexicans themselves.

    • Replies: @bigdicknick
    Ah, so Christopher Columbus was a mexican amerindian. Got it. Makes perfect sense.
  200. @Neil Templeton
    Internal dispute or no, running down a man with an automobile? WTF kind of folk are these Antifa?

    I’d say they are a lot like James Fields.

  201. @Steve Sailer
    Italians immigrants weren't terribly adept at learning English. I guess most of the Dutch, German, and Scandinavian immigrants spoke a language closer to English so picked up English earlier.

    “Italians immigrants weren’t terribly adept at learning English.”

    Context matters. Refer to pages 82-85.

    https://scholarworks.umb.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1155&context=masters_theses

    “I guess most of the Dutch, German, and Scandinavian immigrants spoke a language closer to English so picked up English earlier”

    Not necessarily.

    https://news.wisc.edu/study-debunks-myth-that-early-immigrants-quickly-learned-english/

  202. @Jack D
    I mean they worked a lot in construction and agriculture, were Catholic and spoke a Latin language, ate a cuisine which was later widely adopted by other Americans, etc. You are describing how the government treats Mexicans, not the Mexicans themselves.

    Ah, so Christopher Columbus was a mexican amerindian. Got it. Makes perfect sense.

  203. @OscarWildeLoveChild
    Nope, no more than the most popular TV show of the 1950's, which showed SEPARATE BEDS for a married couple, considered a Cuban ("Latino") to be of a different race than a red-head. It was permissible because no one at the time considered obviously white Hispanics to be any thing other than a sub-category ("ethnicity") of the white, European race, any more than Italians, even dark Sicilians (ethnic as they may be).

    MENA is the next "we're not 'white'" category coming. Even if Whites originated in what is today modern-day Iran, Iraq, Syria and Turkey.

    Divide and conquer what has till now not been divided. That’s what the MSM does, as ordered.
    All shows had separate beds for married couples. It was a tv convention. Lucy and Desi were never seen as an interracial couple. Just the idea was hilarious to me (I grew up watching I Love Lucy) when I first heard it years ago. None of us ever thought of Desi Arnaz as anything other than — Cuban. A bit exotic but would have blended easily enough into Fred, Ethel and Lucy-land if he didn’t have an accent. I remember as a kid noting the black train porter in one episode as being the only “colored” person to appear in the whole series. Actually I think there was a black person waiting for the subway in another episode. Desi didn’t stand out for being a different “race.” He stood out for his exaggerated accent, comical hot temper, and flamboyant floor show down at the Copa Cabana.

  204. @Jack D

    I constantly hear from friends and colleagues who struggle with their stigmatized accents (NYC, Southern, etc). It’s a tough world out there….
     
    I think it's getting tougher. Until fairly recently it was common to find even well educated people who had strong regional accents and this was considered acceptable. Feynman had one hell of a Brooklyn/Queens accent. Shelby Foote sounded like he was the reincarnation of Robert E. Lee (despite being Halachically Jewish - go figure). But nowadays it is a mark of being well educated not to have a regional accent. This is not only true of stigmatized accents but even patrician ones. The NY upper class accent (e.g. George Plimpton) is also virtually extinct.

    They’re smelling your fear, not your accent.

  205. @Old Palo Altan
    Most interesting, thank you.

    I've two female cousins (this time on my father's side) who were at Madeira in the 1990s. It is a very small school, so they would undoubtedly have known your cousins if they were there at around the same time.

    They both live in a far western state now, so I rather doubt that they have kept anything of that particular drawl which Madeira seems to inculcate. I knew a young lady from there here in North Britain who would have left there around 2005, and she had it too. Quite attractive I thought.

    My cousins were class of ‘81 and ‘83. Their head mistress was the one who shot her boyfriend.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    Jean Harris and Dr. Herman Tarnower the diet doctor.
    , @Old Palo Altan
    Oh yes, that.

    I'm told the place has never really recovered.
  206. @Hhsiii
    My cousins were class of ‘81 and ‘83. Their head mistress was the one who shot her boyfriend.

    Jean Harris and Dr. Herman Tarnower the diet doctor.

    • Replies: @Hhsiii
    Yes. Scarsdale diet. He was evidently quite the playa.

    That would have been an iSteve classic if it happened today.
  207. @ChiNaz
    So (((whites))) are now promoting calling goym "whites"?

    Ouch.

    BTW, are trannies "women" or (((women)))?

    Or (.)men(.) and (*)women(*)?

    Charlie Williams:

    • Replies: @Hhsiii
    Oops, meant as a reply to Jonathan Mason.
  208. @Hhsiii
    Charlie Williams:

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7WucumXbAsk

    Oops, meant as a reply to Jonathan Mason.

  209. @nebulafox
    If the NYT believes that white liberals are the only ones more aware they are white in an age where the words "white" and "whiteness" is used 24/7 by the MSM in a consistently pejorative sense, I have a bridge in Brooklyn I'd like to sell them.

    They keep thinking that white people will, on the whole, be more aware that they are white and simultaneously not think of themselves as an ethno-racial political bloc with interests of their own. That's just not going to happen. White supremacism is unlikely to take off, contra liberal nightmares (hopes?), but "identity politics for him, but not for him" is a fantasy in any multiracial society at the best of times, which these decidedly aren't.

    I can imagine three trends or influences that could be changing white to ‘white’.

    First could be the old school liberals in the tradition of Martin Luther King, who have always argued that if you want a society where people aren’t stereotyped by their race and are judged as individuals, constantly stereotyping people as white and therefore racist etc is counter productive.

    Second would be the political strategists, who perhaps now have enough data to show that constantly telling whites how awful they are may cause a few to vote for you in atonement, but most of them get upset and angry and vote for someone else. A declining majority is still a majority. Plus, the political strategists may have noticed that most Hispanics also consider themselves to be white.

    Lastly, it could be a way to broaden the classification. In particular Chinese/Japanese/Korean east Asians are obviously not white, have been subject to much discrimination in the past, but still do OK. If anyone believing in traditional family values and hard work will now be labelled ‘white’ they can be safely ignored or attacked. Heck, Thomas Sowell might end up being ‘white’.

  210. @ChiNaz
    So (((whites))) are now promoting calling goym "whites"?

    Ouch.

    BTW, are trannies "women" or (((women)))?

    Or (.)men(.) and (*)women(*)?

    So (((whites))) are now promoting calling goym “whites”?

    Divide and conquer.

  211. @Hhsiii
    My cousins were class of ‘81 and ‘83. Their head mistress was the one who shot her boyfriend.

    Oh yes, that.

    I’m told the place has never really recovered.

  212. @Jack D
    Jean Harris and Dr. Herman Tarnower the diet doctor.

    Yes. Scarsdale diet. He was evidently quite the playa.

    That would have been an iSteve classic if it happened today.

  213. @theoldnorth
    Some of my 19th century Irish ancestors spoke Irish (Gaelic) as their mother tongue, but also spoke English fluently (I would imagine from childhood). It would surprise me if there were very many monolingual Irish speakers immigrating to America in the 19th century.

    Yeatssociety.com supports that many Irish were bilingual by the 1840’s…

    Famine:

    Despite a Pre-Famine population explosion that was in excess of the European norm,20 the population of Ireland fell dramatically in the post-famine period from 8 million people in 184621 to just under 4 million in 1911.22

    With 4 million Irish speakers in 1841 23 the numbers of people able to speak Irish as their first language fell to 680,000 by 1891.24 These stark figures illustrate well the shocking decline in the Irish language in a short period. As it struggled to survive, the embrace of the English language offered an alternative existence to the ravages of famine!

    Rates of emigration accelerated during the famine decade with many families being assisted by the British government as well as landlords, to take the coffin ships to North America. 25 Assisted emigration amounted to 10% of all ‘post famine emigrants’ and ‘was often eagerly sought.’26 Unlike other European nationalities, Irish emigrants had a low return rate of 8% between 1870 and 1921.27

    By 1890, 39% of those born in Ireland were living outside it.28 Even though they were Irish speakers many emigrants were also English speaking or familiar with the English language. Literacy rates were high with a reading ability of 47% in 1841 which reached 88% by 1911.29 As this increased the chance of employability, most emigration was to the English speaking world.30

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