The Unz Review: An Alternative Media Selection
A Collection of Interesting, Important, and Controversial Perspectives Largely Excluded from the American Mainstream Media
 TeasersiSteve Blog
Why Are People Paying Bribes to Get Their Kids Into USC?
🔊 Listen RSS
Email This Page to Someone

 Remember My Information



=>

Bookmark Toggle AllToCAdd to LibraryRemove from Library • BShow CommentNext New CommentNext New ReplyRead More
ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
AgreeDisagreeLOLTroll
These buttons register your public Agreement, Disagreement, Troll, or LOL with the selected comment. They are ONLY available to recent, frequent commenters who have saved their Name+Email using the 'Remember My Information' checkbox, and may also ONLY be used once per hour.
Ignore Commenter Follow Commenter
Search Text Case Sensitive  Exact Words  Include Comments
List of Bookmarks

This amusing Rick Springer college admissions scandal often involves USC in South-Central L.A. because Springer’s firm is based in Newport Beach, CA.

The New York Times tries to come up with a trend story about USC, but gets the trend mostly backwards:

What’s Life Like as a Student at U.S.C.? Depends on the Size of the Bank Account

“I have met these rich kids who have so much that I can’t comprehend, doing things that I can’t fathom,” said Oliver Bentley, a sophomore at the University of Southern California.

By Jennifer Medina
April 3, 2019

LOS ANGELES — Spring breaks in Bali, resort-style apartment buildings with rooftop pools and tanning beds and regular dinners out at Nobu, where a tab for four roommates could easily stretch into four digits. This is life as a student at the University of Southern California.

This is also life as a U.S.C. student: working an overnight shift to earn money for books, going hungry when the campus meal plan runs out and seething as friends presume that a $20 glass of wine is affordable.

I don’t believe I’ve ever ordered a $20 glass of wine for myself in my lifetime.

The divide between rich and poor students could hardly be more vivid than it is at U.S.C., where the children of celebrities and real estate moguls study alongside the children of nannies and dishwashers.

Now, the college admissions bribery scheme, which has ensnared dozens of wealthy parents accused of bribing their children’s way into U.S.C., has brought renewed attention to class divides on campus — and how different the student experience can be depending on the size of the bank account.

The actual story is that it used to be pretty easy to get into USC if you could afford private college tuition and looked like you might donate to the annual fund. USC was known as the University of Spoiled Children at UCLA, where I got my MBA in 1980-82. At the 1980 USC-UCLA football game, as I recall, the UCLA students mocked the USC students for having credit cards by holding up credit cards. Which, even at the time struck me as odd because clearly the vast majority of UCLA students, or at least the ones who went to the Big Game, had credit cards in 1980.

In fact, UCLA students probably had more disposable income, judging by the neighborhood next to each campus as of 1980:

UCLA: Westwood, the movie premiere capital of the United States at the time

USC: The Third World

One reason UCLA students had more money to spend was because California taxpayers picked up almost all the tab for our tuition. I paid something like $2,200 over two years for an MBA.

USC was more Protestant, UCLA more Jewish, and nobody updates their stereotypes of relative privilege slower than affluent Jews.

But nowadays it’s ridiculously hard to get into USC. Only 13% of applicants get accepted. Here are some stats about USC’s most recent freshman class:

Fall Enrolls
3,401
40.8% yield 13.0% admitted

Middle 50% GPA (un-weighted, 4.0 scale) 3.70 – 3.97

Middle 50% SAT Reading & Writing 660 – 740
Middle 50% SAT Math 690 – 790

Middle 50% ACT English 32 – 35
Middle 50% ACT Math 28 – 34

Middle 50% SAT composite 1360 – 1510
Middle 50% ACT composite 30 – 34

USC Class of 2022
New first-year students 3,401
National Merit Scholars 265
First-generation college-goers 17%
Scions (legacy students) 19%

Female 51%
Male 49%

Race/Ethnicity
White 36%
Asian / Asian American 22%
Latinx / Hispanic 16%
International (student visa holders) 13%
Multiple Ethnicities 7%
Black / African American 5%
Native American or Pacific Islander <1%

Most Represented Public High Schools
Arcadia HS; Arcadia, CA 21
Foshay Learning Center; Los Angeles, CA 19
Mira Costa HS; Manhattan Beach, CA 18
PV Peninsula HS; Rolling Hills Estates, CA 16
South Pasadena HS; South Pasadena, CA 15
Troy HS; Fullerton, CA 14

Most Represented Independent & Parochial Schools
Loyola HS; Los Angeles, CA 22
Harvard-Westlake; North Hollywood, CA 12
Flintridge Prep; La Cañada, CA 12
Mater Dei HS; Santa Ana, CA 12
Punahou School; Honolulu, HI 12
Oaks Christian School, Thousand Oaks, CA 11

One question is why USC is so fashionable nowadays that rich people are paying bribes and hiring ringers to take tests for their kids to get their kids in?

Downtown L.A. is bustling these days and they’ve relocated Skid Row from the south side down toward USC to the giant homeless encampment in the northeast side of downtown. But, still, DTLA does not yet go all the way down to USC.

I imagine having a film school is excellent advertising. Movie people get interviewed all the time, so USC gets a lot of publicity from, say, George Lucas being associated with it (besides Lucas giving $175 million to the film school). NYU’s reputation hasn’t suffered from its association with Martin Scorsese. But USC also has a famous football team.

In the Atlantic, Caitlin Flanagan writes about what it was like to be a college counselor at a certain unnamed private high school that was my high school’s arch-rival in debate.

They Had It Coming

The parents indicted in the college-admissions scandal were responding to a changing America, with rage at being robbed of what they believed was rightfully theirs.

APR 4, 2019

by Caitlin Flanagan

Thirty years ago, having tapped out of a Ph.D. program, I moved to Los Angeles (long story) and got hired at the top boys’ school in the city, which would soon become co-educational. For the first four years, I taught English. Best job I’ve ever had. For the next three, I was a college counselor. Worst job I’ve ever had. …

I did not know—even after four years at the institution—that the school’s impressive matriculation list was not the simple by-product of excellent teaching, but was in fact the end result of parental campaigns undertaken with the same level of whimsy with which the Japanese Navy bombed Pearl Harbor. …

I will now add as a very truthful disclaimer that the horrible parents constituted at most 25 percent of the total, that the rest weren’t just unobjectionable, but many—perhaps most—were lovely people who were so wise about parenting that when I had children of my own, I often remembered things they had told me. But that 25 percent was a lesson that a lifetime of reading novels hadn’t yet taught me. …

In the recent past—the past in which this generation of parents grew up—a white student from a professional-class or wealthy family who attended either a private high school or a public one in a prosperous school district was all but assured admission at a “good” college. It wasn’t necessarily going to be Harvard or Yale, but it certainly might be Bowdoin or Northwestern. That was the way the system worked. But today, there’s a squeeze on those kids. The very strong but not spectacular white student from a good high school is now trying to gain access to an ever-shrinking pool of available spots at the top places. He’s not the inherently attractive prospect he once was.

These parents—many of them avowed Trump haters—are furious that what once belonged to them has been taken away, and they are driven mad with the need to reclaim it for their children. The changed admissions landscape at the elite colleges is the aspect of American life that doesn’t feel right to them; it’s the lost thing, the arcadia that disappeared so slowly they didn’t even realize it was happening until it was gone. They can’t believe it—they truly can’t believe it—when they realize that even the colleges they had assumed would be their child’s back-up, emergency plan probably won’t accept them.

P.S., on an obscure golf course history note, Caitlin writes:

… I would drive though the exotic air of early-morning Los Angeles to the school, which was on a street with a beautiful name, Coldwater Canyon, in a part of the city originally designated the Central Motion Picture District. It sat on a plot of land that in the 1920s composed part of the Hollywood Hills Country Club, an institution that has a Narnia-like aspect, in that not even the California historian Kevin Starr knew whether it ever really existed, or if it was merely a fiction promoted by real-estate developers trying to entice new homeowners to the Edenic San Fernando Valley. …

I can’t seem to get the page break working, so I’ll just put this all in one post, but feel free to skip up over the rest unless you find the subject of the Lost Golf Courses of the San Fernando Valley as interesting as I do:

This combination of the possibly imaginary country club and the assumption behind the building of the chapel—get the set right, and you can make the whole production work—seemed to me like something from an Evelyn Waugh novel.

I can confirm there was a Hollywood Country Club at the corner of Coldwater Canyon and Ventura Blvd in the 1920s according to this aerial photo:

The Hollywood Country Club went bankrupt during the Depression and the school bought the upper right part of the golf course in 1937. (In case you are wondering, the vanished Hollywood Country Club was different from lavish but never-completed Beverly Hills Country Club project just over the crest of the Hollywood Hills. That one was headed by Dean Martin and it went bankrupt at the end of the 1960s because the Teamsters Pension Fund in Jimmy Hoffa’s day wasn’t totally on the up and up.)

A slightly paranoid blog post wonders if anybody ever played this putative golf course or whether it was all just a real estate hoax. This picture, which a friend of mine gave me to hang on my wall 15 years ago, looks legit rather than the equivalent of a 1920s Photoshop job.

But this golf course sure is obscure, even though the history of lost golf courses in Los Angeles is otherwise pretty well documented by amateur golf historians over the last 15 years. And generally Los Angeles history is well documented since a few movie stars could be induced to add some glamor to any project.

For example, the bizarre Pine Needles ski hill behind Universal Studios sounds more like a dream I had than a once real enterprise. But we know it existed in the summer of 1939 because the promoter made sure to have Ginger Rodgers and Jimmy Stewart ski down its pine needle covered slope to get some press coverage.

Okay, I’ve found a more detailed article:

Finally in 1919, plans to build a Hollywood Country Club actually led to completion. A new group, with Douglas Fairbanks and Sydney Chaplin serving on the board of directors, secured a $200,000 option on 140 acres in the area near North Hollywood, with half a mile frontage on Ventura Boulevard and heading up to the top of the canyon, adjoining what is now Coldwater Canyon Boulevard.

This seems to be based on this 1919 newspaper article.

[By 1921] Membership already totaled more than 650, with a 700 limit. Only eight film members belonged, one of which was Wallace Reid.

Okay, that may explain the historical obscurity: even though the Hollywood Country Club had some movie star names attached to its founding, and it was up and running all through the 1920s, it did not catch on with movie folk, so it’s lost to historical obscurity. My guess is that the golf course architecture by an otherwise unknown designer named F.A. Peebles wasn’t very good and couldn’t compete with the Westside courses by George C. Thomas, like Bel-Air and Riviera. Most of the holes run straight uphill or downhill and the canyon on the left appears too narrow to get out of, apparently requiring golfers to walk back down.

The Hollywood Hills are a tilted block mountain range, with the south side along Wilshire Boulevard having gentler foothills ideal for golf, while the north side falls abruptly down into the flat San Fernando Valley. But the north slope of the hills has a lot of trees because it’s as blasted by midday sun as the south slope of the hills. They finally got the north slope of the Santa Monica mountains golf course right at Sherwood in Thousand Oaks in the 1980.

 
Hide 188 CommentsLeave a Comment
Commenters to Ignore...to FollowEndorsed Only
Trim Comments?
  1. I don’t believe I’ve ever ordered a $20 glass of wine for myself in my lifetime.

    I don’t think I’ve ever paid as much as $20 for a 1.5 liter bottle of wine. Wine should be cheap and mixed two parts water.

    • LOL: PV van der Byl
    • Replies: @Redneck farmer
    2019 AD, not 2019 BC.
    , @Clyde
    Never ever vino at 20$ per glass. But prolly the same for Warren Buffet, with a few exceptions for social occasions when he had no choice. As far as wine at home. It is red and from Aldi @ $3.00 per bottle. Cabernet Sauvingon.....hey it's full of reveratrol.
    , @mmack
    Piker! A gallon jug of CR Cellars Fortissimo goes for a touch over $20. Goes pretty damned good with pasta in red sauce or grilled steaks.
    , @Kratoklastes

    I don’t think I’ve ever paid as much as $20 for a 1.5 liter bottle of wine
     
    Bottle? Well lah-dee-fucking-dah, Little Lord Fauntleroy, Your Lordship.

    Us men from the lower orders get our plonk in a box like Jesus intended.

    5l casks of a perfectly “buvable” plonk can be had for $12 down our way: about twice a year you can get ‘em at 3 for $30... at which time the cognoscenti will buy 9 and thereby get free delivery.

    It even comes in different flavours: Rosé, Red [rough, smooth or sweet], and even two or 3 types of plonk that’s metabolically efficient because it’s already kinda urine-coloured (oddly, the “Classic dry white” tastes of pineapple juice).

    Even when I lived in Deepest Darkest France (in the Auvergne), I rarely bought plonk by the bot... about once a month we used to fill a 20l plastic bidon at a place in Ambert, at 60 centimes a litre - the refill hoses looked like gas pumps. If you asked for white or Rosé they knew you were foreigners.
    , @MBlanc46
    De gustibus non disputandum est.
  2. Nice to see rich White liberals finally confronted with the effects of affirmative action on their children. I guess even an autism diagnosis isn’t enough to get a White into a “good “ college nowadays.

    Check the black box and hire someone to write a poor poor pitiful me admissions essay and get not just admission but a full scholarship.

  3. Why is USC so popular now? This should be as good a reason as any.

    • Replies: @Joe H
    Yeah, except that USC has had cheerleaders that look like this for decades-and so has ASU, the school that Lori Loughlin was so desperate to keep her daughters out of (my alma mater).
    , @Dale Gribble
    Which lucky lad(ies) will have Reggie Bush's children
    , @ScarletNumber
    Meh, your local college will have much better. The one on the right looks like Jay Leno.
  4. Caitlin Flanagan taught English to Catholic High School boys for 4 years. Not too bad meeting this everyday. Lucky fellas.

    • Replies: @Bill B.
    Yeah but Ms Flanagan still can't resist putting the boot into white-people-who-we-all-know-are-crashing-down-in-the-world.

    These rich strivers who are concerned for their kids are more deplorables don't you know?

    From The Atlantic article:

    But what accounted for the intensity of emotion these parents expressed, their sense of a profound loss, of rage at being robbed of what they believed was rightfully theirs? They were experiencing the same response to a changing America that ultimately brought Donald Trump to office: white displacement and a revised social contract. The collapse of manufacturing jobs has been to poor whites what the elite college-admissions crunch has been to wealthy ones: a smaller and smaller slice of pie for people who were used to having the fattest piece of all.
     
    , @Old Palo Altan
    It's Harvard-Westlake which is on Coldwater Canyon, not Loyola.
    , @guest
    What is some potato-eater teaching the Queen's English fer!?

    And what does she mean she tapped out of a PhD program? Did she flunk or quit because she was going to flunk?
  5. Anonymous[151] • Disclaimer says:

    I think USC occupies a niche for smart, wealthy students who want to go to a brand name school, put a high premium on location and don’t have the CV for Harvard, Stanford et al. Other schools of this genus would be NYU, Georgetown, Tufts etc.

    Now why so many ostensibly sophisticated people would pay hundreds of thousands of dollars and commit multiple felonies just to get their children into these schools? Search me. I’m especially interested in the case of the stockbroker who tipped the FBI off to the whole scheme; he had one daughter graduated, one enrolled and one applying to Yale, and he helped frame the Yale soccer coach, all in order to get a lighter sentence in his unrelated securities fraud case. Does that mean he sold his daughters out to save his own ass, as Flanagan suggests in her article? Even for America in 2019 that would be a new low.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    But NYU is in a vastly better location with NYC than USC is within LA.
    , @South Texas Guy

    I think USC occupies a niche for smart, wealthy students who want to go to a brand name school, put a high premium on location and don’t have the CV for Harvard, Stanford et al. Other schools of this genus would be NYU, Georgetown, Tufts etc.
    Now why so many ostensibly sophisticated people would pay hundreds of thousands of dollars and commit multiple felonies just to get their children into these schools? Search me.
     
    I'm not sure about California, but in Texas most, if not all, of the top state schools have deals with junior colleges that provide for automatic admission as junior as long as the student's JC GPA was in the B range. So you can still get a diploma from UT, Texas A&M, Texas Tech, etc. if you're willing to start off your higher ed. career on a smaller scale. Plus, it's cheaper that way, the first two years are BS anyway, and JCs often offer advanced courses that wouldn't be available to a student freshman and senior years.

    I got my BA from a university, but when I wanted to go into journalism, I went back to school to a JC where I was able to get the skills and clips needed to land a job at a publication. All for a bargain basement price of about $1,100, and I got a $1,000 stipend for being the school paper's managing editor. That wouldn't have happened at UT.

    , @Anonymous
    I wouldn't class USC with NYU, G'Town, and Tufts, at least not historically. The latter schools always had an academic focus and reputation prior to becoming known as being popular as a rich kids' finishing school. With USC, it was the opposite: it was always a rich kids' school that more recently has built up its academics with money by building up departments and attracting professors.
    , @Thinker

    Does that mean he sold his daughters out to save his own ass, as Flanagan suggests in her article? Even for America in 2019 that would be a new low.
     
    (((Morrie Tobin))). They'll sell out anybody to save their own asses, including many other members of the tribe.
    , @Thinker

    Does that mean he sold his daughters out to save his own ass, as Flanagan suggests in her article? Even for America in 2019 that would be a new low.
     
    (((Morrie Tobin))). They'll sell out anybody to save their own asses, including many other members of the tribe.
    , @Jack D

    put a high premium on location
     
    If you put a high premium on location, then USC doesn't have it. The black ghetto of LA starts directly outside the edge of the campus. The place where Nipsey Hussle was shot is 15 min. from the campus and it's all continuous ghetto. LA ghettos don't look like east coast or midwest ghettos - they are mostly little single family bungalows with yards. But it's the people, not the tenements or projects, that make the ghetto.
    , @Almost Missouri

    "he helped frame the Yale soccer coach"
     
    Inasmuch as it appears that the soccer coach actually did what he is accused of, I think "ratted out" is more correct than "framed".

    That particular shade-of-meaning question will likely not appear on an SAT anytime soon, unless maybe under an Ali G. administration.
    , @James J. O'Meara
    Now THAT would have made a great episode of The Gilmore Girls. In fact I think Paris Gellar's parents were on the run from a securities fraud case at one point.
  6. One reason UCLA students had more money to spend was because California taxpayers picked up almost all the tab for our tuition. I paid something like $2,200 over two years for an MBA.

    As much as hate to admit it, it’s things like this that make me feel sympathetic to Bernie Sanders’s economic agenda. Why should state schools cost so much for in-state students nowadays? Why aren’t there more federally funded public universities?

    Part of this is due to excessive student enrollment—which needs to be curtailed regardless—but I can still feel the zeitgeist behind parts of Sanders’s agenda.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    My dentist is the same age as me and grew up about a mile away. He was public school all the way through UCLA dental school.
    , @Redneck farmer
    Also, more spending at the elementary and secondary school level has reduced higher education spending, relatively speaking. The number of learning disabled students increases, skyrocketing the need for assistance. The worst off of these students, quite bluntly, would have died before entering kindergarten 50 years ago. Many more get assistance from relatively cheap tutoring to expensive programs that produce ok, but not great students.
    It's A LOT cheaper to say a kid is stupid than deal with learning disabilities.
    , @Altai
    One of the strange things about political debate in western countries is how much, despite the third wave seeking to homogenise policy, difference there is.

    Yet I see Americans, particularly of the libertarian or begrudging sort, claiming this or that can't be done because it'd cost too much money without asking if it's done in other countries. Americans have no clue how little they pay in taxes compared to countries with the highest living standards and happiness.
    , @PSR
    Why do state schools cost so much? Cue the statistic about Michigan employing enough diversity/inclusion staff (in other words useless administrative staff) to pay the admissions of 700 students. No one in academia and in their right mind wants to teach anymore. You want the administrative job with no measurable outputs and plenty of conferences to attend. You make the part-time adjuncts actually do the dirty work.
  7. A couple of things strike me about colleges:

    One thing is how many of the elite colleges are located in what over the decades have become ghettos and slums.

    And what difference does it make, in terms of what you learn, which college you attend? They all teach the same things anyway.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    And what difference does it make, in terms of what you learn, which college you attend? They all teach the same things anyway.

    And they all teach different things within the college. There isn't that much in common between the education that two members of the USC Class of 2022 will get.

    , @prime noticer
    "And what difference does it make, in terms of what you learn, which college you attend? They all teach the same things anyway."

    the network, for the insiders.

    the prestige of the degree, to the outsiders.

    the particular department, if your major is not going to be something generic. if you're really trying to be something in one particular field, then it matters which place you go for certain degrees. same as sports.

    , @Jack D

    And what difference does it make, in terms of what you learn, which college you attend? They all teach the same things anyway.
     
    This is not true, even just in terms of what you learn and putting aside future networking opportunities and the value of a brand name on your resume, both of which are really big things. Although the PhD. glut means that even lesser schools have high quality instructors, some of the top schools have real superstars. Having really smart kids next to you in class also makes a big difference. 1st of all, in terms of the pace and depth that the professor can teach without losing the class. 2nd in terms of the class atmosphere - the type of questions that the professor gets asked, the quality of the classroom discussion. In terms of the study groups you will form to work on problem sets, etc. If you are brighter than the average student in your U, you will regret having to work with a bunch of people who are significantly dumber than you, if you are less bright, you are going to feel like you are in over your head and that the others are catching on a lot faster than you. Either is not good - ideally you want to be well matched intellectually with your schoolmates.

    The big price differential is between attending your in-state State U and attending a private university. Whether this differential is worth it depends on which state you live in, what field you are interested in, whether you intend to stay in your home state, etc. It's impossible to say that State U (or Private U) is ALWAYS the right choice - it really depends on the situation.
    , @SimpleSong
    Most STEM fields are fairly standardized in terms of the sequence of courses, material covered, and even the textbooks used. At very high prestige schools they may use a more difficult or obscure textbook, or one that was written by the teaching prof (no conflict of interest there!), or they'll jump straight to the text that is usually considered the definitive graduate-level treatment. I've generally found that the 'standard' texts used by the state Us are usually the best from a pedagogical perspective: they became the standard for a reason.

    One thing that varies by school is how far you make it into the text. For example a course at one school may cover half of the standard text while another goes from cover to cover. But, you have the book and can always finish it up on your own. To be frank, usually the combination of 1.) the textbook author 2.) random internet sources, and 3.) well designed problem sets do a better job than your lecturer of imparting understanding. So the university itself is kinda superfluous, at least at the undergrad level.

    Of course none of this really matters because the only reason you go to a university is 1.) signaling and 2.) networking. If it were about knowledge you could just download a reading list and some problem sets and be done with it.
  8. the University of Spoiled Children

    Not to be confused with the University of Surreptitious Cockfighters Stubborn Confederates 2100 miles away at the same latitude.

    • Replies: @prime noticer
    "Not to be confused with the University of Stubborn Confederates 2100 miles away at the same latitude."

    i was on the south carolina campus one time and the people who go to that USC claim it is the real USC, not that other USC.

    decent university, but the rest of south carolina, well, they don't call it the dirty south for nothing. columbia was run down.
  9. Anon[130] • Disclaimer says:

    In the late 1970s I don’t remember Westwood Village being that packed full of UCLA students. For one thing, although technically it’s right next to campus, it’s next to the part of campus that housed parking structures and the medical center. The part of the campus for students was quite a hike away, on the northeast side, with the dorms on the northwest side. Movie theaters, banks, clothing boutiques, sit-down tablecloth restaurants: there was nothing of much interest to students. The two decent bookstores closed about that time. Between Wilshire and Santa Monica was a more interesting chuck on Westwood Blvd., with Rhino Records and a few good casual eating places (Mexican, cheesesteaks), but you drove there.

  10. @Paul
    A couple of things strike me about colleges:

    One thing is how many of the elite colleges are located in what over the decades have become ghettos and slums.

    And what difference does it make, in terms of what you learn, which college you attend? They all teach the same things anyway.

    And what difference does it make, in terms of what you learn, which college you attend? They all teach the same things anyway.

    And they all teach different things within the college. There isn’t that much in common between the education that two members of the USC Class of 2022 will get.

    • Replies: @Paul
    I think during the first couple of years of requirements they will hear a lot of pretty much the same stuff in their classes, from their dormmates, and in the student newspaper.
    , @dr kill
    O/T. This is the exact reason the reports of AOC graduating 4th in her class are bullshit.
    Reporting really is pathetic.
  11. @al-Gharaniq

    One reason UCLA students had more money to spend was because California taxpayers picked up almost all the tab for our tuition. I paid something like $2,200 over two years for an MBA.
     
    As much as hate to admit it, it's things like this that make me feel sympathetic to Bernie Sanders's economic agenda. Why should state schools cost so much for in-state students nowadays? Why aren't there more federally funded public universities?

    Part of this is due to excessive student enrollment—which needs to be curtailed regardless—but I can still feel the zeitgeist behind parts of Sanders's agenda.

    My dentist is the same age as me and grew up about a mile away. He was public school all the way through UCLA dental school.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    This orthodontics grad from USC racked up $1 million in debt which will increase over the next 25 years to $2 million:

    https://www.advisory.com/daily-briefing/2018/05/30/student-loans

    Mike Meru, an orthodontist in Draper, Utah, is one of the 101 students with more than $1 million in federal student loan debt, the Journal reports

    Meru attended the University of Southern California (USC,) one of the costliest dental schools in the country. At the start of his program, Meru said, USC estimated that the basic four-year program would require Meru to take out $400,000 to $450,000 in student loans, including interest.

    After his first year, USC's tuition rose by 6% and his student loan interest rate jumped from 4.75% to 6.8%. During his third year, USC raised tuition by another 6%. By the end of his fourth year of school, Meru had taken out about $340,000 in student loans, which the Journal notes was still in line with the school's initial projections.

    However, those projections did not take into account the fact that most dental residencies take place at universities that charge residents tuition. By the end of his three-year residency, Meru had borrowed $601,506 in student loans. At that time, he decided to use a government option known as forbearance to postpone payments and use his new salary to support his growing family. However, interest continued to accrue during that time period, and between the interest and related fees, the Journal reports Meru now owes $1,060,945.42 in student loan debt.

    In 2015, Meru refinanced his debt with the federal government and entered a 25-year repayment plan under which he makes monthly student loan payments equal to 10% of his discretionary income—which is defined as his adjusted gross income minus 150% of the poverty level. For Meru, that comes out to $1,589.97 a month—which is not enough to cover the interest on his student loans, meaning that his debt grows daily by $130. According to the Journal, Meru's debt under his current repayment plan is projected to continue to rise over the next 25 years when it will reach $2 million, at which point, the remaining sum will be forgiven. Under Meru's plan any sum beyond 25 years qualifies for loan forgiveness, the Journal reports. By that time, Meru is projected to have paid a total of about $1.6 million, according to the Journal.
     
  12. @Anonymous
    I think USC occupies a niche for smart, wealthy students who want to go to a brand name school, put a high premium on location and don't have the CV for Harvard, Stanford et al. Other schools of this genus would be NYU, Georgetown, Tufts etc.

    Now why so many ostensibly sophisticated people would pay hundreds of thousands of dollars and commit multiple felonies just to get their children into these schools? Search me. I'm especially interested in the case of the stockbroker who tipped the FBI off to the whole scheme; he had one daughter graduated, one enrolled and one applying to Yale, and he helped frame the Yale soccer coach, all in order to get a lighter sentence in his unrelated securities fraud case. Does that mean he sold his daughters out to save his own ass, as Flanagan suggests in her article? Even for America in 2019 that would be a new low.

    But NYU is in a vastly better location with NYC than USC is within LA.

    • Replies: @Dan Hayes
    Steve,

    A good part of NYU's brand is that it engulfs Washington Square Park, NYC's premier up-scale dope bazaar!
    , @Daniel H
    But NYU is in a vastly better location with NYC than USC is within LA.

    NYU is a massive con. Probably more so than Trump university. Very little student aid at NYU. As a NYU student, one either has rich parents, or one is taking on enormous debt. There is no middle ground. And 90% of NYU students major in useless humanity, social science degrees. Well, I guess starting out one's adulthood in never-dischargeable-debt up to one's nose is good training for something, probably more-so than the bullshit "education" one receives. But, anyway, chilling out in Greenwich Village (ooh, that hurts. It's the East Village, dude) one can hang out on the Bowery and pilgrimage to CBGB where Joey Ramone, David Byrne, and Johnny Thunders squawked back in 1976. So cool, right?

    No kidding, NYU brags that it is the most expensive university in the USA. The school administration doesn't give a buck. The entire thing is just a business to them. NYU has branch locations now in Dubai, Accra (where IS Accra?), Buenos Aires, Madrid .........wherever...

    Several years ago NYU swallowed up an excellent engineering school - Brooklyn Polytechnic. Now, Brooklyn Polytechnic had absorbed part of NYU's engineering several decades ago, but Polytechnic stood on its own as an excellent engineering school. For some crazy Machiavellian reason the trustees of Polytechnic agreed to merge the institution with NYU. Not good. Now it's part of NYU, and I have little doubt that it Polytechnic will suffer a decline in effect, prestige and maybe it's very sustainability.

    New York City is soooooo, bleeping over.
  13. Anon[130] • Disclaimer says:

    Regarding untimed SAT and ACT testing, I don’t think that the ETS should have caved in as quickly on the asterisks. Why not pass that responsibility on to the admissions officers? Make them aver that they are not considering the asterisks, or have someone in their offices copy the test scores, sans asterisks, to the students application if they are worried about “implicit bias” against upper class white students.

    When you think about it, requiring that the ETS not have asterisks on untimed tests is not really different from requiring them to just make the scores higher for the handicapped by some percent.

    Whatever the factual data is should be preserved and reported, not obfuscated and erased from history.

  14. @Daniel H
    Why is USC so popular now? This should be as good a reason as any.

    http://totalfratmove.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/d48868f140a312fd061129869af6187c.png

    Yeah, except that USC has had cheerleaders that look like this for decades-and so has ASU, the school that Lori Loughlin was so desperate to keep her daughters out of (my alma mater).

  15. @Steve Sailer
    But NYU is in a vastly better location with NYC than USC is within LA.

    Steve,

    A good part of NYU’s brand is that it engulfs Washington Square Park, NYC’s premier up-scale dope bazaar!

  16. anon[325] • Disclaimer says:

    Ever since the scandal became public, two opinions have been widely expressed. The first is that the schemes it revealed are not much different from the long-standing admissions preference for big donors… [This isn’t] quite right. As off-putting as most of us find the role that big-ticket fundraising plays in elite-college admissions, those monies go toward programs and facilities that will benefit a wide number of students—new dormitories, new libraries, enriched financial-aid funds are often the result of rich parents being tapped for gifts at admissions time.

    What’s the Harvard endowment up to now?

    • Replies: @RationalExpressions
    They are quite well endowed.
  17. These parents—many of them avowed Trump haters—are furious that what once belonged to them has been taken away, and they are driven mad with the need to reclaim it for their children. The changed admissions landscape at the elite colleges is the aspect of American life that doesn’t feel right to them

    This is a facet of White liberalism/leftism that often goes overlooked. A lot of these people have literally said, when caught saying something unPC, ‘I voted for Obama!’ For them it’s all pro-immigration, pro-affirmative action until the rubber meets the road and it’s not theoretical anymore, and junior can’t get into a name-brand college because ‘others’ have taken their kids rightful spots.

    • Agree: GermanReader2
    • Replies: @Ed
    It’s an update of “I have black friends!”
    , @Alfa158
    Sounds like she is subconsciously talking about the USA and California in particular. Let me cut out the extraneous words:
    “The changed ........ landscape........................ of American life that doesn’t feel right to them; it’s the lost thing, the arcadia that disappeared so slowly they didn’t even realize it was happening until it was gone. They can’t believe it—they truly can’t believe it.”
    , @PSR
    Or what I so often see living in a medium sized midwestern city surrounded by suburbs. They love the diversity of their neighborhood, the darkening of their little suburb, um, until Junior or Missy are ready to start first grade and then then they high tail it to the high cost/high tax suburbs that are still 85% white and 10% Asian.
    , @WowJustWow
    As I interact more with SWPLs and SJWs and BoBos who have started to have kids, it seems they actually do know the impact of the social policies they support, but they just have this unshakable belief that somehow they'll still come out unscathed and on top -- why wouldn't they, given how fervently they demonstrate their own holiness? You know that Steinbeck quote, "Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires"? Like most smug sarcastic quips that leftists utter against their political enemies, it's all rooted in projection.
  18. When I was in college I mistakenly thought Stanford was a joke. Do I have to change my opinion of USC, now?

    • Replies: @GermanReader2
    It is ranked as one of the 20 to 25 best colleges in the US.
    , @JimB

    It is ranked as one of the 20 to 25 best colleges in the US.
     
    “We’re number twenty-two — We try harder” doesn’t sound like it has much cachet.
  19. @Anonymous
    I think USC occupies a niche for smart, wealthy students who want to go to a brand name school, put a high premium on location and don't have the CV for Harvard, Stanford et al. Other schools of this genus would be NYU, Georgetown, Tufts etc.

    Now why so many ostensibly sophisticated people would pay hundreds of thousands of dollars and commit multiple felonies just to get their children into these schools? Search me. I'm especially interested in the case of the stockbroker who tipped the FBI off to the whole scheme; he had one daughter graduated, one enrolled and one applying to Yale, and he helped frame the Yale soccer coach, all in order to get a lighter sentence in his unrelated securities fraud case. Does that mean he sold his daughters out to save his own ass, as Flanagan suggests in her article? Even for America in 2019 that would be a new low.

    I think USC occupies a niche for smart, wealthy students who want to go to a brand name school, put a high premium on location and don’t have the CV for Harvard, Stanford et al. Other schools of this genus would be NYU, Georgetown, Tufts etc.
    Now why so many ostensibly sophisticated people would pay hundreds of thousands of dollars and commit multiple felonies just to get their children into these schools? Search me.

    I’m not sure about California, but in Texas most, if not all, of the top state schools have deals with junior colleges that provide for automatic admission as junior as long as the student’s JC GPA was in the B range. So you can still get a diploma from UT, Texas A&M, Texas Tech, etc. if you’re willing to start off your higher ed. career on a smaller scale. Plus, it’s cheaper that way, the first two years are BS anyway, and JCs often offer advanced courses that wouldn’t be available to a student freshman and senior years.

    I got my BA from a university, but when I wanted to go into journalism, I went back to school to a JC where I was able to get the skills and clips needed to land a job at a publication. All for a bargain basement price of about $1,100, and I got a $1,000 stipend for being the school paper’s managing editor. That wouldn’t have happened at UT.

  20. Anonymous[375] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous
    I think USC occupies a niche for smart, wealthy students who want to go to a brand name school, put a high premium on location and don't have the CV for Harvard, Stanford et al. Other schools of this genus would be NYU, Georgetown, Tufts etc.

    Now why so many ostensibly sophisticated people would pay hundreds of thousands of dollars and commit multiple felonies just to get their children into these schools? Search me. I'm especially interested in the case of the stockbroker who tipped the FBI off to the whole scheme; he had one daughter graduated, one enrolled and one applying to Yale, and he helped frame the Yale soccer coach, all in order to get a lighter sentence in his unrelated securities fraud case. Does that mean he sold his daughters out to save his own ass, as Flanagan suggests in her article? Even for America in 2019 that would be a new low.

    I wouldn’t class USC with NYU, G’Town, and Tufts, at least not historically. The latter schools always had an academic focus and reputation prior to becoming known as being popular as a rich kids’ finishing school. With USC, it was the opposite: it was always a rich kids’ school that more recently has built up its academics with money by building up departments and attracting professors.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    An even more famous football school, Notre Dame, has really built up its academics. It's now one of the more rigorous colleges in the country
  21. A home buyer tipped off the Boston Globe that home of Harvard’s fencing coach was purchased by the father of a prospective athlete. The son is now on Harvard’s fencing team. The son earned straight As at St. Albans in DC, had nearly perfect SAT scores, his older brother fenced for Harvard at the time of the sale, and their mother has multiple degrees from Harvard, so he is a legacy.

    The house was appraised for $549,000, purchased for $989,000, and sold 17 months later for $665,000. What is strange to me is that when the fencing coach sold his house, he paid $1.3 million for a condo with an asking price of $989,000.

    A couple years ago, I went through Yale’s men’s athletic roster and found an equal number of black and Asian male athletes. Blacks were mostly on the football team, few on the basketball team. Squash had several Asian athletes.

    • Replies: @Ed
    So the son was qualified for Harvard but dad didn’t want to leave anything up to chance, understandable.
    , @Thinker

    The son is now on Harvard’s fencing team. The son earned straight As at St. Albans in DC, had nearly perfect SAT scores, his older brother fenced for Harvard at the time of the sale, and their mother has multiple degrees from Harvard, so he is a legacy.
     
    I don't know how true that is. The dad who bought the house from the Harvard coach is a China national. If the son really is that qualified, he wouldn't need to bribe anyone.
  22. Anonymous[375] • Disclaimer says:
    @Steve Sailer
    My dentist is the same age as me and grew up about a mile away. He was public school all the way through UCLA dental school.

    This orthodontics grad from USC racked up $1 million in debt which will increase over the next 25 years to $2 million:

    https://www.advisory.com/daily-briefing/2018/05/30/student-loans

    Mike Meru, an orthodontist in Draper, Utah, is one of the 101 students with more than $1 million in federal student loan debt, the Journal reports

    Meru attended the University of Southern California (USC,) one of the costliest dental schools in the country. At the start of his program, Meru said, USC estimated that the basic four-year program would require Meru to take out $400,000 to $450,000 in student loans, including interest.

    After his first year, USC’s tuition rose by 6% and his student loan interest rate jumped from 4.75% to 6.8%. During his third year, USC raised tuition by another 6%. By the end of his fourth year of school, Meru had taken out about $340,000 in student loans, which the Journal notes was still in line with the school’s initial projections.

    However, those projections did not take into account the fact that most dental residencies take place at universities that charge residents tuition. By the end of his three-year residency, Meru had borrowed $601,506 in student loans. At that time, he decided to use a government option known as forbearance to postpone payments and use his new salary to support his growing family. However, interest continued to accrue during that time period, and between the interest and related fees, the Journal reports Meru now owes $1,060,945.42 in student loan debt.

    In 2015, Meru refinanced his debt with the federal government and entered a 25-year repayment plan under which he makes monthly student loan payments equal to 10% of his discretionary income—which is defined as his adjusted gross income minus 150% of the poverty level. For Meru, that comes out to $1,589.97 a month—which is not enough to cover the interest on his student loans, meaning that his debt grows daily by $130. According to the Journal, Meru’s debt under his current repayment plan is projected to continue to rise over the next 25 years when it will reach $2 million, at which point, the remaining sum will be forgiven. Under Meru’s plan any sum beyond 25 years qualifies for loan forgiveness, the Journal reports. By that time, Meru is projected to have paid a total of about $1.6 million, according to the Journal.

    • Replies: @bomag
    Seems like a weird kind of high-end debt peonage.

    I'm not sure there is anyone here to feel sorry for, except the taxpayer; and maybe not even them.

    , @stillCARealist
    And I suspect that people like this are the reason the total US student loan debt is so high. Most students have loans in a much smaller range... my BIL had about 15K after finishing his degree as an adult... but the fancy degrees accumulate these huge debts. Another relative is getting a Physician's Assistant degree and will have more like 250K debt upon completion. I have yet another relative who is still paying off his law degree debt as he approaches 40.
    , @Daniel H
    This is a sad and scary tale. This man, Mike Meru, is literally a slave to debt. He cannot discharge, or significantly modify that debt under current law.

    Meru has two options 1) understand the next 25 years of his life will be determined by his slave master and accept his fate. 2) Emigrate abroad. This option is not too bad. The man has excellent credentials that will be accepted in any nation with out hesitation. He can have a good, enriching life in many locales. Take his pick: Canada, Germany, Italy, France, Netherlands, Norway, etc.... And he can always come back and visit the USA. I know what I would do if I were in his shoes.
  23. @Reg Cæsar

    the University of Spoiled Children
     
    Not to be confused with the University of Surreptitious Cockfighters Stubborn Confederates 2100 miles away at the same latitude.

    “Not to be confused with the University of Stubborn Confederates 2100 miles away at the same latitude.”

    i was on the south carolina campus one time and the people who go to that USC claim it is the real USC, not that other USC.

    decent university, but the rest of south carolina, well, they don’t call it the dirty south for nothing. columbia was run down.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    I want to walk around Charlottesville and Durham in my Virginia Blue Devils hoodie.


    https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/scorestream-team-profile-pictures/9048/20181010201853_799_mascot300.png



    Someday I'll get a Pekin Chinks jersey and wear it in Hong Kong. I did wear a Chief Wahoo hat one whole summer in an Alaskan village with plenty of Indians.
  24. @Paul
    A couple of things strike me about colleges:

    One thing is how many of the elite colleges are located in what over the decades have become ghettos and slums.

    And what difference does it make, in terms of what you learn, which college you attend? They all teach the same things anyway.

    “And what difference does it make, in terms of what you learn, which college you attend? They all teach the same things anyway.”

    the network, for the insiders.

    the prestige of the degree, to the outsiders.

    the particular department, if your major is not going to be something generic. if you’re really trying to be something in one particular field, then it matters which place you go for certain degrees. same as sports.

    • Agree: South Texas Guy
    • Replies: @Paul
    That is why I qualified it with "in terms of what you learn."
  25. i know a recent USC grad who is dating a recent UCLA grad. this is considered offensive to the UCLA people. there is a lot of back and forth over this. and yes, the USC guy is wealthy and not as smart as his girlfriend. money talks.

    i used talk with this doctor who is a michigan grad and his wife is a michigan state grad. he called it a mixed marriage.

    • Replies: @Thinker

    i used talk with this doctor who is a michigan grad and his wife is a michigan state grad. he called it a mixed marriage.
     
    LOL! Good one.
    , @Alfa158
    On the Strand in the South Bay one of the eight digit beachfront houses flies a flag bearing both the USC and UCLA logos and the legend; “House Divided”.
  26. Like the Indian Activist Nathan Phillips, I went to college during ‘Vietnam Times’. This was peak ‘baby boom’ with the added incentive to get into a 4 year college ( at least for men) of the draft. UC Berkeley was competitive but I do not believe anything like today. If you didn’t get accepted there there was the new UC Santa Cruz and of course the Cal State system. My point is that getting into college then was not a difficult thing if you didn’t have your heart set on Stanford. Something major must have changed.

    I realize California’s population has more than doubled since those days but Latinos ( who didn’t exist outside of San Jose in the Bay Area) were not then or now a major factor in university enrollment. My guess is that it is the increase in female enrollment that has pressured college admissions. Looking back I remember most of my classes at Berkeley were majority male. Didn’t think about it much at the time as if I thought about it at all I thought women attended Mills College or Catholic all women’s colleges that still existed in the area.

    I guess the data exists somewhere but too late for me to go digging for it now.

    • Replies: @216
    There has been a large increase in international students, particularly Chinese. Universities like Internationals because they almost always pay full freight, and tend to live in campus housing all four years.

    It's largely unheard of for American students to complete a degree at a foreign university, though "study abroad" is common, IMO a joke. There is a minor trend of certain wealthy families in the US studying at St. Andrews in the UK, which is four-years rather than the typical three. The institution received a prestige boost because Prince William met his wife there.

    I think some UCs have a "backdoor" where a graduate of a community college is guaranteed admission, when they otherwise couldn't be admitted as a freshman.
  27. Steve, I think you mean USC is 10% Jewish and 26% white. What’s the latest on the Harvard lawsuit?

    https://hillel.org/college-guide/list/record/university-of-southern-california

    • Replies: @Thinker

    Steve, I think you mean USC is 10% Jewish and 26% white. What’s the latest on the Harvard lawsuit?
     
    That seems low. After all it's right next to Jew heaven Hollywood. Many Jews are probably secular and don't join the Hillel and not counted.
  28. @Steve Sailer
    And what difference does it make, in terms of what you learn, which college you attend? They all teach the same things anyway.

    And they all teach different things within the college. There isn't that much in common between the education that two members of the USC Class of 2022 will get.

    I think during the first couple of years of requirements they will hear a lot of pretty much the same stuff in their classes, from their dormmates, and in the student newspaper.

  29. College admissions are pretty crazy now. My daughter with a 1500 SAT score (almost evenly divided between math and verbal) and good class rank (top 9% from a well regarded private school) got rejected from almost every school she applied to including both her parents alma maters (I guess I should have given more money) and USC. She is in engineering and I know that is harder but still? It was very dispiriting.
    Luckily she eventually did get into a second tier UC school where she is happy.
    I had fairly similar number when I applied to college over 40 years ago. I did not apply to Harvard, Princeton, Stanford or Yale but I got in everywhere else I applied (including Columbia, U of Chicago, Northwestern, Penn, Pomona etc.)

    • Replies: @LondonBob
    Well if it is anything like British universities nowadays you are competing on a global level rather than just within that country. Most of you baby boomers wouldn't be admitted these days.
    , @Desiderius
    It’s a purely positional good now. The value of positional goods is highly correlated with exclusivity.
    , @Jack D
    The population of the US has increased almost 50% since 40 years ago but the # of seats at Top 50 universities has hardly budged at all. When you applied, virtually all of the seats were available to, and went to, white people but now at least 15% or more of the seats are reserved for NAMs. In addition, all of these schools have a significant foreign enrollment which further decreases the the # of seats available to American citizens. Top U's set aside maybe 10% of seats for foreigners (mainly Chinese) who pay full tuition. In addition, there is a huge new population of Asian Americans who are competing for the remaining seats. It's just a completely different ball game with different odds - the numerator (the # of seats available to a generic non-NAM) has declined and the denominator (the # of people competing for those seats) has increased and that's how you end up with 4% admit rates. 4% is an overall rate so once you remove all the NAMS, legacies, athletes, etc. it's even worse - as an "unhooked" white applicant your chances at Harvard or Stanford are maybe 1 in 50. Ironically, you are better off being from some flyover state - they really don't get that many applicants from N. Dakota and like to have "geographic diversity". The worst is if you are just another white or Asian kid in the ring suburbs of the coastal cities.
  30. @Anonymous
    I wouldn't class USC with NYU, G'Town, and Tufts, at least not historically. The latter schools always had an academic focus and reputation prior to becoming known as being popular as a rich kids' finishing school. With USC, it was the opposite: it was always a rich kids' school that more recently has built up its academics with money by building up departments and attracting professors.

    An even more famous football school, Notre Dame, has really built up its academics. It’s now one of the more rigorous colleges in the country

  31. Ed says:

    I caught wind of this resentment of middle class whites towards the admission process when I worked in Baltimore. My co-workers were slightly older with teenagers and would constantly complain about how difficult it was to get into UM. Being black they’d tip toe around discussing the issue with me. However it was clear they blamed affirmative action for much of their kids difficulty getting into UM despite having sterling credentials, according to them.

    So they consoled themselves with their kids going to less stellar state schools or West Virginia University.

    • Replies: @Marty
    Being black they'd ...

    You mean you're black?
  32. @Triumph104
    A home buyer tipped off the Boston Globe that home of Harvard's fencing coach was purchased by the father of a prospective athlete. The son is now on Harvard's fencing team. The son earned straight As at St. Albans in DC, had nearly perfect SAT scores, his older brother fenced for Harvard at the time of the sale, and their mother has multiple degrees from Harvard, so he is a legacy.

    The house was appraised for $549,000, purchased for $989,000, and sold 17 months later for $665,000. What is strange to me is that when the fencing coach sold his house, he paid $1.3 million for a condo with an asking price of $989,000.

    A couple years ago, I went through Yale's men's athletic roster and found an equal number of black and Asian male athletes. Blacks were mostly on the football team, few on the basketball team. Squash had several Asian athletes.

    So the son was qualified for Harvard but dad didn’t want to leave anything up to chance, understandable.

    • Agree: Triumph104
  33. @South Texas Guy

    These parents—many of them avowed Trump haters—are furious that what once belonged to them has been taken away, and they are driven mad with the need to reclaim it for their children. The changed admissions landscape at the elite colleges is the aspect of American life that doesn’t feel right to them
     
    This is a facet of White liberalism/leftism that often goes overlooked. A lot of these people have literally said, when caught saying something unPC, 'I voted for Obama!' For them it's all pro-immigration, pro-affirmative action until the rubber meets the road and it's not theoretical anymore, and junior can't get into a name-brand college because 'others' have taken their kids rightful spots.

    It’s an update of “I have black friends!”

  34. On my first visit to USC in notorious south-central Los Angeles, I was struck by how much better the area looked than my own California neighborhood. It made me feel pretty bad.

  35. @JimB

    I don’t believe I’ve ever ordered a $20 glass of wine for myself in my lifetime.
     
    I don't think I've ever paid as much as $20 for a 1.5 liter bottle of wine. Wine should be cheap and mixed two parts water.

    2019 AD, not 2019 BC.

    • Replies: @JimB

    2019 AD, not 2019 BC.
     
    Suit yourself.
  36. @al-Gharaniq

    One reason UCLA students had more money to spend was because California taxpayers picked up almost all the tab for our tuition. I paid something like $2,200 over two years for an MBA.
     
    As much as hate to admit it, it's things like this that make me feel sympathetic to Bernie Sanders's economic agenda. Why should state schools cost so much for in-state students nowadays? Why aren't there more federally funded public universities?

    Part of this is due to excessive student enrollment—which needs to be curtailed regardless—but I can still feel the zeitgeist behind parts of Sanders's agenda.

    Also, more spending at the elementary and secondary school level has reduced higher education spending, relatively speaking. The number of learning disabled students increases, skyrocketing the need for assistance. The worst off of these students, quite bluntly, would have died before entering kindergarten 50 years ago. Many more get assistance from relatively cheap tutoring to expensive programs that produce ok, but not great students.
    It’s A LOT cheaper to say a kid is stupid than deal with learning disabilities.

    • Replies: @stillCARealist
    wow, you really cut to the chase there. But I doubt it's just about learning disabilities. The whole process of public education has gotten more expensive up and down the line, from K-12 through the colleges and universities. Likely we're seeing the effects of gov't growth, pensions, prevailing wage laws, skimming, scamming, deep pockets, obscene insurance liability, lawyers, environmentalism, and no need to worry about profit. What are their incentives to keep costs down? The parents of K-12 mostly pay nothing and the bond measures and tax payers are pretty reliable for soaking.

    The public schools (K-12 anyway) need to follow the private model: if the money isn't there, then you cancel the program or let people go. The parents can pick up the slack, or they can fund raise. If that doesn't work, then we do without.
  37. …………. it’s the lost thing, the arcadia that disappeared so slowly they didn’t even realize it was happening until it was gone.

    You don’t say, Caitlin, you don’t say.

  38. anon[319] • Disclaimer says:

    I got my MBA in 1980-82… I paid something like $2,200 over two years for an MBA…An even more famous football school, Notre Dame, has really built up its academics.

    Twenty years later, I scored very well on the GMAT and the University of Florida offered me a half-tuition scholarship; the traditional 2-yr MBA program cost me $4000 total tuition.

    The 2019 USN&W report ranks the UCLA MBA program at a very respectable 16, USC at 17, UF at 25, and Notre Dame at 26 (tied w/ Rice).

    ‘I voted for Obama!’

    Shamefully, I once (untruthfully) used this excuse.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Back in the 1970s UCLA's MBA program was ranked #8 in two different listings. But it's hard to stay that highly ranked as a public university, since an MBA program isn't as much of a public good as, say, medical research.
  39. @anon
    I got my MBA in 1980-82… I paid something like $2,200 over two years for an MBA…An even more famous football school, Notre Dame, has really built up its academics.

    Twenty years later, I scored very well on the GMAT and the University of Florida offered me a half-tuition scholarship; the traditional 2-yr MBA program cost me $4000 total tuition.

    The 2019 USN&W report ranks the UCLA MBA program at a very respectable 16, USC at 17, UF at 25, and Notre Dame at 26 (tied w/ Rice).


    ‘I voted for Obama!’

    Shamefully, I once (untruthfully) used this excuse.

    Back in the 1970s UCLA’s MBA program was ranked #8 in two different listings. But it’s hard to stay that highly ranked as a public university, since an MBA program isn’t as much of a public good as, say, medical research.

  40. @JimB
    When I was in college I mistakenly thought Stanford was a joke. Do I have to change my opinion of USC, now?

    It is ranked as one of the 20 to 25 best colleges in the US.

  41. > I don’t believe I’ve ever ordered a $20 glass of wine for myself in my lifetime.

    OK, but what about the dozens of times that you seethed over your Almaden Chablis while your credit card carrying barfly friends traded notes on their air-freighted Bordeaux?

    Speaking of dozens, is it a NYT fantasy that there are so many USC bribery cases? That was the top end Rick Singer offering, mostly his services were counseling, coaching, and other less pricey and less illegal stuff.

    • Replies: @Clyde

    OK, but what about the dozens of times that you seethed over your Almaden Chablis while your credit card carrying barfly friends traded notes on their air-freighted Bordeaux?
     
    That's absurd, I would be bored and wanting the conversation to move on. Prolly same for Steve. For me the ultimate alcohol is a good black beer at a micro- brewery. My local one does great with young professionals, male and female, liking it after work. The food is laughably pretentious, but the women like these foo foo pizzas etc. Crap farm raised salmon on arugala, yikes! At least it's not sushi, the biggest food scam ever.
  42. @Steve Sailer
    But NYU is in a vastly better location with NYC than USC is within LA.

    But NYU is in a vastly better location with NYC than USC is within LA.

    NYU is a massive con. Probably more so than Trump university. Very little student aid at NYU. As a NYU student, one either has rich parents, or one is taking on enormous debt. There is no middle ground. And 90% of NYU students major in useless humanity, social science degrees. Well, I guess starting out one’s adulthood in never-dischargeable-debt up to one’s nose is good training for something, probably more-so than the bullshit “education” one receives. But, anyway, chilling out in Greenwich Village (ooh, that hurts. It’s the East Village, dude) one can hang out on the Bowery and pilgrimage to CBGB where Joey Ramone, David Byrne, and Johnny Thunders squawked back in 1976. So cool, right?

    No kidding, NYU brags that it is the most expensive university in the USA. The school administration doesn’t give a buck. The entire thing is just a business to them. NYU has branch locations now in Dubai, Accra (where IS Accra?), Buenos Aires, Madrid ………wherever…

    Several years ago NYU swallowed up an excellent engineering school – Brooklyn Polytechnic. Now, Brooklyn Polytechnic had absorbed part of NYU’s engineering several decades ago, but Polytechnic stood on its own as an excellent engineering school. For some crazy Machiavellian reason the trustees of Polytechnic agreed to merge the institution with NYU. Not good. Now it’s part of NYU, and I have little doubt that it Polytechnic will suffer a decline in effect, prestige and maybe it’s very sustainability.

    New York City is soooooo, bleeping over.

    • Replies: @Thinker
    NYU and Northwestern have always been perennial "hot" schools for rich kids with good grades but not good enough for the Ivies.

    A while back there was an article in the NYT about a current or former president of NYU whose goal was to expand NYU into a "world class" university with overseas campuses, who then raised tuition substantially to pay for the expansion. I think that was a mistake. He diluted NYU's brand.

    The school doesn't even have a real campus. It's just a few blocks by a few blocks of non-descript buildings. It's main attraction is its proximity to Wall Street, which makes its business/finance department very popular with those who want to get a job on Wall Street. The film school has many famous alumni, which is odd considering it's on the opposite coast from the film capital of USA.

    NYU boasts a huge roster of well known alumni, esp. in business and entertainment, including Woody Allen, Martin Scorsese, Ann Hathaway, Alec Baldwin, Lady Gaga, Angelina Jolie, Meg Ryan, Spike Lee, Sean Hannity, Adam Sandler, Philip Seymour Hoffman, Chris Evans, Kristen Bell, the Olsen twins, John Paulson, Rudy Giuliani, Alan Greenspan, Jack Dorsey, Robert Mueller, Jared fucking Kusher(Law school), J.D. Salinger -- it's quite a roster, famous or notorious you decide.

  43. @Larry, San Francisco
    College admissions are pretty crazy now. My daughter with a 1500 SAT score (almost evenly divided between math and verbal) and good class rank (top 9% from a well regarded private school) got rejected from almost every school she applied to including both her parents alma maters (I guess I should have given more money) and USC. She is in engineering and I know that is harder but still? It was very dispiriting.
    Luckily she eventually did get into a second tier UC school where she is happy.
    I had fairly similar number when I applied to college over 40 years ago. I did not apply to Harvard, Princeton, Stanford or Yale but I got in everywhere else I applied (including Columbia, U of Chicago, Northwestern, Penn, Pomona etc.)

    Well if it is anything like British universities nowadays you are competing on a global level rather than just within that country. Most of you baby boomers wouldn’t be admitted these days.

    • Replies: @stillCARealist
    This just pisses me off to no end. Why should the HS students of CA have to compete with China and India to get into a UC? Same thing for your country. Their parents have been paying taxes in the state for years and then some ringer flies in at the last moment and gets the spot. I don't care if he or she has better test scores. Go enrich your own filthy country with your test-taking. The UC's should be for California kids, say 90% plus. A few percent from other states and just a handful of foreigners. Grr...
  44. Every summer I do comic con at the lacc and I take the bus down Figueroa Street to raid their cheap food court rather than pay 15$ for a hot dog and a canned soda at the food trucks….

    I noticed 2vthings…..students are real paranoid and the campus is really funny as SC Los Angeles seems to be the last ungentrified part o

  45. @prime noticer
    "And what difference does it make, in terms of what you learn, which college you attend? They all teach the same things anyway."

    the network, for the insiders.

    the prestige of the degree, to the outsiders.

    the particular department, if your major is not going to be something generic. if you're really trying to be something in one particular field, then it matters which place you go for certain degrees. same as sports.

    That is why I qualified it with “in terms of what you learn.”

    • Replies: @prime noticer
    'That is why I qualified it with “in terms of what you learn.”'

    they do not all teach the same thing, is what i'm saying.
  46. @JimB

    I don’t believe I’ve ever ordered a $20 glass of wine for myself in my lifetime.
     
    I don't think I've ever paid as much as $20 for a 1.5 liter bottle of wine. Wine should be cheap and mixed two parts water.

    Never ever vino at 20$ per glass. But prolly the same for Warren Buffet, with a few exceptions for social occasions when he had no choice. As far as wine at home. It is red and from Aldi @ $3.00 per bottle. Cabernet Sauvingon…..hey it’s full of reveratrol.

    • Replies: @Jim Bob Lassiter
    As Foster Brooks would say, "Are you sure you're not a wine connoisseur?"
    , @JimB

    Cabernet Sauvingon…..hey it’s full of reveratrol.
     
    So is Welch’s grape juice, and you can drive while drinking it.
  47. USC has been doing extra great on donations. My perception is that wealthy locals are courted and like to donate for prestige and bragging rights. Even though they did not attend. And obviously Southern California has loads of wealthy and ultra wealthy who know that you cannot take it *$$$* with you.
    USC has a very large student body.

    For the 2018–19 academic year, there were 20,000 students enrolled in four-year undergraduate programs. USC also has 27,500 graduate and professional students in a number of different programs, including business, law, engineering, social work, and medicine.

    USC Athletics hits its highest fund raising total ever
    With $300 million raised, the department’s Heritage Initiative meets its Campaign for USC goal
    BY Susan L. Wampler APRIL 1, 2015

    $200 million donation largest in USC history
    By DARA WEINRAUB
    March 9, 2011 in News
    USC has received its largest single donation since the university was established in 1880.

    Dana and David Dornsife, longstanding patrons of the USC Brain and Creativity Institute and the university’s neuroscience program, have donated $200 million in an unrestricted endowment to the USC College of Letters, Arts & Sciences, which will now become the USC Dana and David Dornsife College of Letters, Arts & Sciences.

    Nikias has only been president of the university for about seven months, but USC has already received three sizeable donations.

    When Nikias was inaugurated Oct. 15, trustee Ming Hsieh announced a $50 million donation to the university for cancer research, and the Annenberg Foundation announced a $50 million donation to construct a new building for the Annenberg School for Communication & Journalism.

    This donation from the Dornsifes, however, is unrestricted and will allow the College to decide how and when to spend the money.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    I wrote about Dornsife's $200 million donation to USC as likely a good example of the kind of person who donates hugely: white, male, a grad, a businessman, a legacy, with his own child attending the college as a 3rd generation legacy, and a jock (shotputter on a national champion USC track team in the 1960s). In other words, the kind of guy who writes his alma mater the really big checks are the Haven Monahan types that the woke want to drive off campus.
  48. @ic1000
    > I don’t believe I’ve ever ordered a $20 glass of wine for myself in my lifetime.

    OK, but what about the dozens of times that you seethed over your Almaden Chablis while your credit card carrying barfly friends traded notes on their air-freighted Bordeaux?

    Speaking of dozens, is it a NYT fantasy that there are so many USC bribery cases? That was the top end Rick Singer offering, mostly his services were counseling, coaching, and other less pricey and less illegal stuff.

    OK, but what about the dozens of times that you seethed over your Almaden Chablis while your credit card carrying barfly friends traded notes on their air-freighted Bordeaux?

    That’s absurd, I would be bored and wanting the conversation to move on. Prolly same for Steve. For me the ultimate alcohol is a good black beer at a micro- brewery. My local one does great with young professionals, male and female, liking it after work. The food is laughably pretentious, but the women like these foo foo pizzas etc. Crap farm raised salmon on arugala, yikes! At least it’s not sushi, the biggest food scam ever.

    • Replies: @stillCARealist
    This is such a great thread! Sushi is certainly one of the biggest food scams out there. It's so gross and overpriced it rivals caviar and foie gras.

    Hey waiter, serve me something disgusting, uncooked, and derived from beach-combings. Oh, and charge me whatever you can get away with. Can I get it with a side of offal? Perfect!
  49. @Clyde
    USC has been doing extra great on donations. My perception is that wealthy locals are courted and like to donate for prestige and bragging rights. Even though they did not attend. And obviously Southern California has loads of wealthy and ultra wealthy who know that you cannot take it *$$$* with you.
    USC has a very large student body.

    For the 2018–19 academic year, there were 20,000 students enrolled in four-year undergraduate programs. USC also has 27,500 graduate and professional students in a number of different programs, including business, law, engineering, social work, and medicine.
     
    USC Athletics hits its highest fund raising total ever
    With $300 million raised, the department’s Heritage Initiative meets its Campaign for USC goal
    BY Susan L. Wampler APRIL 1, 2015

    $200 million donation largest in USC history
    By DARA WEINRAUB
    March 9, 2011 in News
    USC has received its largest single donation since the university was established in 1880.

    Dana and David Dornsife, longstanding patrons of the USC Brain and Creativity Institute and the university’s neuroscience program, have donated $200 million in an unrestricted endowment to the USC College of Letters, Arts & Sciences, which will now become the USC Dana and David Dornsife College of Letters, Arts & Sciences.

    Nikias has only been president of the university for about seven months, but USC has already received three sizeable donations.

    When Nikias was inaugurated Oct. 15, trustee Ming Hsieh announced a $50 million donation to the university for cancer research, and the Annenberg Foundation announced a $50 million donation to construct a new building for the Annenberg School for Communication & Journalism.

    This donation from the Dornsifes, however, is unrestricted and will allow the College to decide how and when to spend the money.

    I wrote about Dornsife’s $200 million donation to USC as likely a good example of the kind of person who donates hugely: white, male, a grad, a businessman, a legacy, with his own child attending the college as a 3rd generation legacy, and a jock (shotputter on a national champion USC track team in the 1960s). In other words, the kind of guy who writes his alma mater the really big checks are the Haven Monahan types that the woke want to drive off campus.

  50. There is a thread currently on GCA about relocated golf courses. A nice Jewish club (while kinda boring) used to be where O’Hare airport is now. There is a club (Westmoreland) in Wilmette who used to be closer to the lake but moved West for More Land…get it?

    The oldest clubs, like the old Bendalows, did not look for golfy land, because the state of the art did not realize gentle rolls of the land were more fun.

  51. When it comes to money and privilege at USC, one thing is for sure– the stark disparities are not just limited to the student body. The new bimbo presidenta came from UNC-CH with a golden parachute big enough to safely drop a Maseratti into Somalia with (for cucking on Silent Sam) that she didn’t even have to pull the ripcord on.

  52. @Clyde
    Never ever vino at 20$ per glass. But prolly the same for Warren Buffet, with a few exceptions for social occasions when he had no choice. As far as wine at home. It is red and from Aldi @ $3.00 per bottle. Cabernet Sauvingon.....hey it's full of reveratrol.

    As Foster Brooks would say, “Are you sure you’re not a wine connoisseur?”

    • Replies: @Clyde

    As Foster Brooks would say, “Are you sure you’re not a wine connoisseur?”
     
    Or a cheap wine connoisseur of cheap wines.
  53. I’m guessing the unnamed HS is Harvard-Westlake. That school was placed in the Mission League (for athletics) my senior year and our football team destroyed them something like 42-0.

    They had one field goal attempt… which I blocked. 🙂

  54. @al-Gharaniq

    One reason UCLA students had more money to spend was because California taxpayers picked up almost all the tab for our tuition. I paid something like $2,200 over two years for an MBA.
     
    As much as hate to admit it, it's things like this that make me feel sympathetic to Bernie Sanders's economic agenda. Why should state schools cost so much for in-state students nowadays? Why aren't there more federally funded public universities?

    Part of this is due to excessive student enrollment—which needs to be curtailed regardless—but I can still feel the zeitgeist behind parts of Sanders's agenda.

    One of the strange things about political debate in western countries is how much, despite the third wave seeking to homogenise policy, difference there is.

    Yet I see Americans, particularly of the libertarian or begrudging sort, claiming this or that can’t be done because it’d cost too much money without asking if it’s done in other countries. Americans have no clue how little they pay in taxes compared to countries with the highest living standards and happiness.

    • Replies: @Redneck farmer
    The countries with the least diversity, you mean.
    , @guest
    We have guns.
  55. The college consultant’s name is Rick Singer not Springer. A member of the tribe. At least half the people involved in this scam are Jewish.

    I guess what it boils down to is vanity. Rich and powerful people just can’t well tell their friends at cocktail parties that their kids are going to Arizona State or Loyola College. Imagine the horror, or worse, “Never heard of it!” The embarrassment! Not only do they need people to know they’re rich, but they also want people to think their kids are smart, which is a reflection of their own intelligence, and good parenting. Second string schools are for the plebs.

    USC is a football team with a school attached to it. Any school known for its football has got to have a good Greek scene, that’s what those rich kids are there for, to party with other rich kids. Academics are for the Asians. One thing for sure this scandal totally boosted the stock of USC. Next year they are sure to get a huge bump in applications. Their admission rate is already down to 11% this year. Next thing you know they’ll be a top 10 school on US News.

    Elite colleges need to knock off the facade and admit what they are really in education for — to build the largest war chest aka endowment fund to boost the school’s prestige. Why let cockroaches like Rick Singer or the coaches pocket all the cash when they are sitting on such valuable commodities? Set aside 10% of their seats and auction them off to the highest bidders. Then, throw the plebs a few bones by giving away a few more token scholarships to the “under represented minorities”, and of course, admit enough Asians to boost the median SAT scores, though not enough to kill off the party scene.

    This is pretty much the formula now anyway with the legacy and “development” admits, might as well make it official. This way, the school gets to pocket all the cash, cut out the middle man, and the rich can buy prestige the legitimate way without having to go to jail. Win-win!

    • Replies: @guest
    Vanity, okay. But it's just USC. Of all things to be vain about...
  56. @Anonymous
    I think USC occupies a niche for smart, wealthy students who want to go to a brand name school, put a high premium on location and don't have the CV for Harvard, Stanford et al. Other schools of this genus would be NYU, Georgetown, Tufts etc.

    Now why so many ostensibly sophisticated people would pay hundreds of thousands of dollars and commit multiple felonies just to get their children into these schools? Search me. I'm especially interested in the case of the stockbroker who tipped the FBI off to the whole scheme; he had one daughter graduated, one enrolled and one applying to Yale, and he helped frame the Yale soccer coach, all in order to get a lighter sentence in his unrelated securities fraud case. Does that mean he sold his daughters out to save his own ass, as Flanagan suggests in her article? Even for America in 2019 that would be a new low.

    Does that mean he sold his daughters out to save his own ass, as Flanagan suggests in her article? Even for America in 2019 that would be a new low.

    (((Morrie Tobin))). They’ll sell out anybody to save their own asses, including many other members of the tribe.

  57. @Anonymous
    I think USC occupies a niche for smart, wealthy students who want to go to a brand name school, put a high premium on location and don't have the CV for Harvard, Stanford et al. Other schools of this genus would be NYU, Georgetown, Tufts etc.

    Now why so many ostensibly sophisticated people would pay hundreds of thousands of dollars and commit multiple felonies just to get their children into these schools? Search me. I'm especially interested in the case of the stockbroker who tipped the FBI off to the whole scheme; he had one daughter graduated, one enrolled and one applying to Yale, and he helped frame the Yale soccer coach, all in order to get a lighter sentence in his unrelated securities fraud case. Does that mean he sold his daughters out to save his own ass, as Flanagan suggests in her article? Even for America in 2019 that would be a new low.

    Does that mean he sold his daughters out to save his own ass, as Flanagan suggests in her article? Even for America in 2019 that would be a new low.

    (((Morrie Tobin))). They’ll sell out anybody to save their own asses, including many other members of the tribe.

  58. Steve, how far back is your data? You quoted:

    Race/Ethnicity
    White 36%
    Asian / Asian American 22%
    Latinx / Hispanic 16%
    International (student visa holders) 13%
    Multiple Ethnicities 7%
    Black / African American 5%
    Native American or Pacific Islander <1%

    According to USC’s own 2018 “Facts and Figures”:
    https://about.usc.edu/facts/

    Student Demographics (Fall 2018)
    Asians 16.8%
    Black/African-American 5.6%
    Hispanic 14.8%
    White/Caucasian 30.7%
    International 23.9%
    Other 8.1%

    USC has the highest % of foreign students of all colleges in the US, with nearly 50% from China alone. That’s why their new nickname these days is University of Spoiled Chinese.

  59. @Triumph104
    A home buyer tipped off the Boston Globe that home of Harvard's fencing coach was purchased by the father of a prospective athlete. The son is now on Harvard's fencing team. The son earned straight As at St. Albans in DC, had nearly perfect SAT scores, his older brother fenced for Harvard at the time of the sale, and their mother has multiple degrees from Harvard, so he is a legacy.

    The house was appraised for $549,000, purchased for $989,000, and sold 17 months later for $665,000. What is strange to me is that when the fencing coach sold his house, he paid $1.3 million for a condo with an asking price of $989,000.

    A couple years ago, I went through Yale's men's athletic roster and found an equal number of black and Asian male athletes. Blacks were mostly on the football team, few on the basketball team. Squash had several Asian athletes.

    The son is now on Harvard’s fencing team. The son earned straight As at St. Albans in DC, had nearly perfect SAT scores, his older brother fenced for Harvard at the time of the sale, and their mother has multiple degrees from Harvard, so he is a legacy.

    I don’t know how true that is. The dad who bought the house from the Harvard coach is a China national. If the son really is that qualified, he wouldn’t need to bribe anyone.

    • Replies: @PV van der Byl

    If the son really is that qualified, he wouldn’t need to bribe anyone.
     
    Harvard routinely rejects applicants with 1600 SATs and 4.0 GPAs.

    As "Ed" (#32 above) wrote, the father (didn't want to leave anything to chance.
  60. @prime noticer
    i know a recent USC grad who is dating a recent UCLA grad. this is considered offensive to the UCLA people. there is a lot of back and forth over this. and yes, the USC guy is wealthy and not as smart as his girlfriend. money talks.

    i used talk with this doctor who is a michigan grad and his wife is a michigan state grad. he called it a mixed marriage.

    i used talk with this doctor who is a michigan grad and his wife is a michigan state grad. he called it a mixed marriage.

    LOL! Good one.

  61. @Trojan for Life
    Steve, I think you mean USC is 10% Jewish and 26% white. What's the latest on the Harvard lawsuit?

    https://hillel.org/college-guide/list/record/university-of-southern-california

    Steve, I think you mean USC is 10% Jewish and 26% white. What’s the latest on the Harvard lawsuit?

    That seems low. After all it’s right next to Jew heaven Hollywood. Many Jews are probably secular and don’t join the Hillel and not counted.

    • Replies: @Rex Little

    Many Jews are probably secular and don’t join the Hillel and not counted.
     
    This is a very good point which is too often overlooked. The oft-cited 2% figure is based on self-reported religious observance, so greatly understates the number of people in the US who have Jewish ancestry.

    My family is an example. Our ancestry is Ashkenazi, but most of us are secular. Of those who are religious, more practice Christianity than Judaism.

    It would save a lot of confusion if there were separate words for Jewish-by-ancestry and Jewish-by-religious-belief.
  62. Back at Cal in the mid ‘80s, we used to joke that USC was the only college in the US that had a box for hair and eye color on their admissions form.

  63. @Daniel H
    But NYU is in a vastly better location with NYC than USC is within LA.

    NYU is a massive con. Probably more so than Trump university. Very little student aid at NYU. As a NYU student, one either has rich parents, or one is taking on enormous debt. There is no middle ground. And 90% of NYU students major in useless humanity, social science degrees. Well, I guess starting out one's adulthood in never-dischargeable-debt up to one's nose is good training for something, probably more-so than the bullshit "education" one receives. But, anyway, chilling out in Greenwich Village (ooh, that hurts. It's the East Village, dude) one can hang out on the Bowery and pilgrimage to CBGB where Joey Ramone, David Byrne, and Johnny Thunders squawked back in 1976. So cool, right?

    No kidding, NYU brags that it is the most expensive university in the USA. The school administration doesn't give a buck. The entire thing is just a business to them. NYU has branch locations now in Dubai, Accra (where IS Accra?), Buenos Aires, Madrid .........wherever...

    Several years ago NYU swallowed up an excellent engineering school - Brooklyn Polytechnic. Now, Brooklyn Polytechnic had absorbed part of NYU's engineering several decades ago, but Polytechnic stood on its own as an excellent engineering school. For some crazy Machiavellian reason the trustees of Polytechnic agreed to merge the institution with NYU. Not good. Now it's part of NYU, and I have little doubt that it Polytechnic will suffer a decline in effect, prestige and maybe it's very sustainability.

    New York City is soooooo, bleeping over.

    NYU and Northwestern have always been perennial “hot” schools for rich kids with good grades but not good enough for the Ivies.

    A while back there was an article in the NYT about a current or former president of NYU whose goal was to expand NYU into a “world class” university with overseas campuses, who then raised tuition substantially to pay for the expansion. I think that was a mistake. He diluted NYU’s brand.

    The school doesn’t even have a real campus. It’s just a few blocks by a few blocks of non-descript buildings. It’s main attraction is its proximity to Wall Street, which makes its business/finance department very popular with those who want to get a job on Wall Street. The film school has many famous alumni, which is odd considering it’s on the opposite coast from the film capital of USA.

    NYU boasts a huge roster of well known alumni, esp. in business and entertainment, including Woody Allen, Martin Scorsese, Ann Hathaway, Alec Baldwin, Lady Gaga, Angelina Jolie, Meg Ryan, Spike Lee, Sean Hannity, Adam Sandler, Philip Seymour Hoffman, Chris Evans, Kristen Bell, the Olsen twins, John Paulson, Rudy Giuliani, Alan Greenspan, Jack Dorsey, Robert Mueller, Jared fucking Kusher(Law school), J.D. Salinger — it’s quite a roster, famous or notorious you decide.

  64. @JimB

    I don’t believe I’ve ever ordered a $20 glass of wine for myself in my lifetime.
     
    I don't think I've ever paid as much as $20 for a 1.5 liter bottle of wine. Wine should be cheap and mixed two parts water.

    Piker! A gallon jug of CR Cellars Fortissimo goes for a touch over $20. Goes pretty damned good with pasta in red sauce or grilled steaks.

  65. @Anonymous
    This orthodontics grad from USC racked up $1 million in debt which will increase over the next 25 years to $2 million:

    https://www.advisory.com/daily-briefing/2018/05/30/student-loans

    Mike Meru, an orthodontist in Draper, Utah, is one of the 101 students with more than $1 million in federal student loan debt, the Journal reports

    Meru attended the University of Southern California (USC,) one of the costliest dental schools in the country. At the start of his program, Meru said, USC estimated that the basic four-year program would require Meru to take out $400,000 to $450,000 in student loans, including interest.

    After his first year, USC's tuition rose by 6% and his student loan interest rate jumped from 4.75% to 6.8%. During his third year, USC raised tuition by another 6%. By the end of his fourth year of school, Meru had taken out about $340,000 in student loans, which the Journal notes was still in line with the school's initial projections.

    However, those projections did not take into account the fact that most dental residencies take place at universities that charge residents tuition. By the end of his three-year residency, Meru had borrowed $601,506 in student loans. At that time, he decided to use a government option known as forbearance to postpone payments and use his new salary to support his growing family. However, interest continued to accrue during that time period, and between the interest and related fees, the Journal reports Meru now owes $1,060,945.42 in student loan debt.

    In 2015, Meru refinanced his debt with the federal government and entered a 25-year repayment plan under which he makes monthly student loan payments equal to 10% of his discretionary income—which is defined as his adjusted gross income minus 150% of the poverty level. For Meru, that comes out to $1,589.97 a month—which is not enough to cover the interest on his student loans, meaning that his debt grows daily by $130. According to the Journal, Meru's debt under his current repayment plan is projected to continue to rise over the next 25 years when it will reach $2 million, at which point, the remaining sum will be forgiven. Under Meru's plan any sum beyond 25 years qualifies for loan forgiveness, the Journal reports. By that time, Meru is projected to have paid a total of about $1.6 million, according to the Journal.
     

    Seems like a weird kind of high-end debt peonage.

    I’m not sure there is anyone here to feel sorry for, except the taxpayer; and maybe not even them.

  66. @Redneck farmer
    Also, more spending at the elementary and secondary school level has reduced higher education spending, relatively speaking. The number of learning disabled students increases, skyrocketing the need for assistance. The worst off of these students, quite bluntly, would have died before entering kindergarten 50 years ago. Many more get assistance from relatively cheap tutoring to expensive programs that produce ok, but not great students.
    It's A LOT cheaper to say a kid is stupid than deal with learning disabilities.

    wow, you really cut to the chase there. But I doubt it’s just about learning disabilities. The whole process of public education has gotten more expensive up and down the line, from K-12 through the colleges and universities. Likely we’re seeing the effects of gov’t growth, pensions, prevailing wage laws, skimming, scamming, deep pockets, obscene insurance liability, lawyers, environmentalism, and no need to worry about profit. What are their incentives to keep costs down? The parents of K-12 mostly pay nothing and the bond measures and tax payers are pretty reliable for soaking.

    The public schools (K-12 anyway) need to follow the private model: if the money isn’t there, then you cancel the program or let people go. The parents can pick up the slack, or they can fund raise. If that doesn’t work, then we do without.

  67. @Anonymous
    This orthodontics grad from USC racked up $1 million in debt which will increase over the next 25 years to $2 million:

    https://www.advisory.com/daily-briefing/2018/05/30/student-loans

    Mike Meru, an orthodontist in Draper, Utah, is one of the 101 students with more than $1 million in federal student loan debt, the Journal reports

    Meru attended the University of Southern California (USC,) one of the costliest dental schools in the country. At the start of his program, Meru said, USC estimated that the basic four-year program would require Meru to take out $400,000 to $450,000 in student loans, including interest.

    After his first year, USC's tuition rose by 6% and his student loan interest rate jumped from 4.75% to 6.8%. During his third year, USC raised tuition by another 6%. By the end of his fourth year of school, Meru had taken out about $340,000 in student loans, which the Journal notes was still in line with the school's initial projections.

    However, those projections did not take into account the fact that most dental residencies take place at universities that charge residents tuition. By the end of his three-year residency, Meru had borrowed $601,506 in student loans. At that time, he decided to use a government option known as forbearance to postpone payments and use his new salary to support his growing family. However, interest continued to accrue during that time period, and between the interest and related fees, the Journal reports Meru now owes $1,060,945.42 in student loan debt.

    In 2015, Meru refinanced his debt with the federal government and entered a 25-year repayment plan under which he makes monthly student loan payments equal to 10% of his discretionary income—which is defined as his adjusted gross income minus 150% of the poverty level. For Meru, that comes out to $1,589.97 a month—which is not enough to cover the interest on his student loans, meaning that his debt grows daily by $130. According to the Journal, Meru's debt under his current repayment plan is projected to continue to rise over the next 25 years when it will reach $2 million, at which point, the remaining sum will be forgiven. Under Meru's plan any sum beyond 25 years qualifies for loan forgiveness, the Journal reports. By that time, Meru is projected to have paid a total of about $1.6 million, according to the Journal.
     

    And I suspect that people like this are the reason the total US student loan debt is so high. Most students have loans in a much smaller range… my BIL had about 15K after finishing his degree as an adult… but the fancy degrees accumulate these huge debts. Another relative is getting a Physician’s Assistant degree and will have more like 250K debt upon completion. I have yet another relative who is still paying off his law degree debt as he approaches 40.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    But this guy got one of the most practical degrees you can get. He went to dental school to study orthodontics. That's more practical than the typical STEM degree, let alone the liberal arts. When people talk about student debt being so high and being used for useless "fancy degrees", they usually mean liberal arts degrees with no immediate practical applications, not dental, medical, etc degrees.

    Universities are supposed to be non-profits that get tax breaks from the government, and in return are supposed to keep costs low and not exploit their bargaining power to charge much if at all above the cost of production to obtain a rent or surplus. They've violated the spirit of this through legalistic means. They seek to maximize their "endowments", not their profit, and thus remain technically non-profit entities.
  68. If college admissions is getting so hard, then won’t the mid-tier schools like Santa Barbara or USC turn out to be more prestigious than Berkeley? Berkeley is a bunch 1500 SAT dorks, Santa Barbara is cool people who still have 1350 SATs. Where would you rather go?

    • Replies: @sanjoaquinsam

    Berkeley is a bunch 1500 SAT dorks, Santa Barbara is cool people who still have 1350 SATs. Where would you rather go?
     
    Cal Poly SLO
    , @education realist
    You do realize things don't happen in a vacuum? 85% of UCSB gets higher than a 1200; 50% of accepted freshmen get over 700 in math (25% get higher than 770), 48% get that higher in English. 50% taking the ACT. They only accept 1 in 3, but only half accept, which is basically their student body. UCSB today is as selective as Berkeley was less than 10 years ago.
  69. @LondonBob
    Well if it is anything like British universities nowadays you are competing on a global level rather than just within that country. Most of you baby boomers wouldn't be admitted these days.

    This just pisses me off to no end. Why should the HS students of CA have to compete with China and India to get into a UC? Same thing for your country. Their parents have been paying taxes in the state for years and then some ringer flies in at the last moment and gets the spot. I don’t care if he or she has better test scores. Go enrich your own filthy country with your test-taking. The UC’s should be for California kids, say 90% plus. A few percent from other states and just a handful of foreigners. Grr…

    • Replies: @sanjoaquinsam
    You're exactly right. I don't know the demographic breakdown but I imagine the Boomer Elite view the California Community College system and CSU's as a courtesy for the hoi polloi.

    California Boomers of all political views (many of which have since fled the state) generously gave the future away to foreigners.
  70. But the north slope of the hills has a lot of trees because it’s as blasted by midday sun as the south slope of the hills.

    Your sentence is missing a not twixt it’s and as.

    I too was surprised at the news that USC was a prestige university and loaded up the US News & World Report ratings page and saw them up there in the top 20 and went wow so if I was associated with the school I might consider this in the all-publicity-is-good-publicity department.

    I can never keep it straight which is the Los Angeles golf club that is all jews and which one is no jews. I think one of them is Hillcrest.

    • Replies: @Old Palo Altan
    I can never keep it straight which is the Los Angeles golf club that is all jews and which one is no jews.

    Go park across the street from either one, and watch the people coming and going. You'll figure it out soon enough.

  71. @Larry, San Francisco
    College admissions are pretty crazy now. My daughter with a 1500 SAT score (almost evenly divided between math and verbal) and good class rank (top 9% from a well regarded private school) got rejected from almost every school she applied to including both her parents alma maters (I guess I should have given more money) and USC. She is in engineering and I know that is harder but still? It was very dispiriting.
    Luckily she eventually did get into a second tier UC school where she is happy.
    I had fairly similar number when I applied to college over 40 years ago. I did not apply to Harvard, Princeton, Stanford or Yale but I got in everywhere else I applied (including Columbia, U of Chicago, Northwestern, Penn, Pomona etc.)

    It’s a purely positional good now. The value of positional goods is highly correlated with exclusivity.

  72. @Clyde

    OK, but what about the dozens of times that you seethed over your Almaden Chablis while your credit card carrying barfly friends traded notes on their air-freighted Bordeaux?
     
    That's absurd, I would be bored and wanting the conversation to move on. Prolly same for Steve. For me the ultimate alcohol is a good black beer at a micro- brewery. My local one does great with young professionals, male and female, liking it after work. The food is laughably pretentious, but the women like these foo foo pizzas etc. Crap farm raised salmon on arugala, yikes! At least it's not sushi, the biggest food scam ever.

    This is such a great thread! Sushi is certainly one of the biggest food scams out there. It’s so gross and overpriced it rivals caviar and foie gras.

    Hey waiter, serve me something disgusting, uncooked, and derived from beach-combings. Oh, and charge me whatever you can get away with. Can I get it with a side of offal? Perfect!

    • Replies: @Old Palo Altan
    Agree: it's a great thread, and sushi is disgusting.

    Disagree: offal can be superb. Try andouillette when you are next in France. It may be sausage made from pig's intestine's but it is delicious, and in a very memorable way.
    , @Clyde

    This is such a great thread! Sushi is certainly one of the biggest food scams out there. It’s so gross and overpriced it rivals caviar and foie gras.
     
    First off, it is mostly Koreans that run sushi joints here, plus some Thais. Some Japanese run the high end "authentic" sushi restaurants where you (the guys) will really pay through nose, more than at a great and satisfying steakhouse. High end like Nobu and the other Nobus in this chain. LA and NYC are full of very expensive sushi places. Koreans and Japanese are laughing all the way to bank and become millionaires trying to keep American women drenched in Sushi.
    Because the ladies are the big sushi aficionados, due to it being perceived as non fattening. What a joke! They drag reluctant husbands and boyfriends to the sushi restaurants. But will they deign to try making it at home? No f'ing way. It is so simple and easy to make, but America's women are on strike when it comes to this.
    They will #metoo you if you don't grovel to the high shrines of the sushi gods and comply by whisking them there, and of course paying out.
  73. But nowadays it’s ridiculously hard to get into USC. Only 13% of applicants get accepted.

    If 13% is ridiculously hard, what do you call 4%? Ludicrous? Stanford was at 4.3% last year and this year they stopped reporting but Harvard ticked down from 4.6 to 4.5% so Stanford is probably at 4.2% or so.

    Part of this is due to an arms race in the # of applications kids send in, made possible by greater parental resources and the Common Application (it’s easier to just check a bunch of boxes than to fill out many separate applications). Schools also like to have a low admit rate and send out mailings encouraging kids to apply. My daughter’s freshman roommate at MIT (a head case) had applied to over 30 schools even though she had sterling credentials and a good story (mother a Cambodian genocide survivor) … she got into most or all of them. In her case I think it was just an ego/insecurity thing (combined with a lot of parental resources) – getting into all those schools would affirm her worth as a human being. But there are many horror stories of boring white or Asian male types who apply to some large # and don’t get in anywhere (good) which only increases the pressure to apply to even more schools in future years.

    • Replies: @Anonymous

    If 13% is ridiculously hard, what do you call 4%? Ludicrous? Stanford was at 4.3% last year and this year they stopped reporting but Harvard ticked down from 4.6 to 4.5% so Stanford is probably at 4.2% or so.
     
    It would be informative if there was a breakdown of acceptance rates. A pole vaulter who's looking to be on the college track team might have, say, a 50% chance of getting into Stanford. Child of legacy/celebrity/foreign potentate/etc. might have say a 75% chance. While ordinary student with X GPA/scores might have a 25% chance. The statistic lumps everyone together which is not as meaningful.
  74. One reason UCLA students had more money to spend was because California taxpayers picked up almost all the tab for our tuition. I paid something like $2,200 over two years for an MBA.

    The bankers and their politician whore puppets such as Ronald Reagan and George HW Bush and baby boomers Bill Clinton and George W Bush and Barack Obama brought about the STUDENT LOAN DEBT RIP-OFF to increase bank profits and keep the debt expanding.

    Remember, in America’s debt-based fiat currency system you must have constantly expanding debt or the economy will implode. Germany uses exports as a debt substitute, but they’ll be forced back into the deutschmark soon, and the Kraut euro currency export scam will collapse.

    Bill Clinton and George W Bush were two baby boomer whores who did the bidding of bankers by keeping the STUDENT LOAN DEBT RIP-OFF scam going strong. George W Bush also did his part to be a banker politician whore by pushing for more mortgages for non-Whites before the real estate asset bubble popped. Cheap money from the Fed also helped things along.

    I am calling for a DEBT JUBILEE for all student loan debt and a massive return of all student loan debt ever paid.

    I wrote this in Februaryof 2019 in response to the STUDENT LOAN DEBT RIP-OFF and its stifling of AFFORDABLE FAMILY FORMATION:

    White women with college degrees or without college degrees should have any student loan debt they might have gently placed onto the bloated balance sheet of the privately-controlled Federal Reserve Bank. The Fed made a market for all the worthless mortgage-backed securities that went belly up, and the Fed should help the cause of enabling White women to have more babies by putting all the student loan debt on the Fed’s balance sheet.

    Every penny ever paid for any student loan whatsoever should be repaid back to the student or the debtor. This lump sum should be returned with 6 percent interest per year added onto the total debt amount refunded.

  75. “The very strong but not spectacular white student from a good high school is now trying to gain access to an ever-shrinking pool of available spots at the top places. He’s not the inherently attractive prospect he once was”

    This will get worse as the years roll on. In the fifties the population of the USSofA was about 150 million and there was only one Harvard, Stanford, USC, UCLA etc etc. Now our population is at about 330 million and growing.

    There needs to be a growth in prestigious colleges in the years to come to prevent this pressure in admittances.

    Itz now time to build Harvard ll, Stanford ll, USC ll etc etc.

    It it wasn’t for competition we’d all be living in heaven. But I suppose even in heaven the is a hierarchical system in place. Our Nun in 4th grade told us the God sits at the top and on the next lower level sit the priests and Nuns and us lowly people are on the lowest rung in heaven. I guess she was only trying to get us interested in a religious vocation.

    Being foreign born I didn’t understand English that well and mistook her to mean vacations. And this is were it all went downhill.

  76. 216 says:
    @unit472
    Like the Indian Activist Nathan Phillips, I went to college during 'Vietnam Times'. This was peak 'baby boom' with the added incentive to get into a 4 year college ( at least for men) of the draft. UC Berkeley was competitive but I do not believe anything like today. If you didn't get accepted there there was the new UC Santa Cruz and of course the Cal State system. My point is that getting into college then was not a difficult thing if you didn't have your heart set on Stanford. Something major must have changed.

    I realize California's population has more than doubled since those days but Latinos ( who didn't exist outside of San Jose in the Bay Area) were not then or now a major factor in university enrollment. My guess is that it is the increase in female enrollment that has pressured college admissions. Looking back I remember most of my classes at Berkeley were majority male. Didn't think about it much at the time as if I thought about it at all I thought women attended Mills College or Catholic all women's colleges that still existed in the area.

    I guess the data exists somewhere but too late for me to go digging for it now.

    There has been a large increase in international students, particularly Chinese. Universities like Internationals because they almost always pay full freight, and tend to live in campus housing all four years.

    It’s largely unheard of for American students to complete a degree at a foreign university, though “study abroad” is common, IMO a joke. There is a minor trend of certain wealthy families in the US studying at St. Andrews in the UK, which is four-years rather than the typical three. The institution received a prestige boost because Prince William met his wife there.

    I think some UCs have a “backdoor” where a graduate of a community college is guaranteed admission, when they otherwise couldn’t be admitted as a freshman.

    • Replies: @sanjoaquinsam

    I think some UCs have a “backdoor” where a graduate of a community college is guaranteed admission, when they otherwise couldn’t be admitted as a freshman.

     

    Both the UC's and CSU's offer articulation agreements with the Community Colleges. Not sure if a spot is 'guaranteed' per se but it's a cost-effective path to get to a decent 4-year school as the cost of living at most of the UC's is where the financial pain is accrued.

    Not sure about the rest of the country but it's mostly not looked down upon to take the CC to UC path to graduation.
  77. @Anonymous
    I think USC occupies a niche for smart, wealthy students who want to go to a brand name school, put a high premium on location and don't have the CV for Harvard, Stanford et al. Other schools of this genus would be NYU, Georgetown, Tufts etc.

    Now why so many ostensibly sophisticated people would pay hundreds of thousands of dollars and commit multiple felonies just to get their children into these schools? Search me. I'm especially interested in the case of the stockbroker who tipped the FBI off to the whole scheme; he had one daughter graduated, one enrolled and one applying to Yale, and he helped frame the Yale soccer coach, all in order to get a lighter sentence in his unrelated securities fraud case. Does that mean he sold his daughters out to save his own ass, as Flanagan suggests in her article? Even for America in 2019 that would be a new low.

    put a high premium on location

    If you put a high premium on location, then USC doesn’t have it. The black ghetto of LA starts directly outside the edge of the campus. The place where Nipsey Hussle was shot is 15 min. from the campus and it’s all continuous ghetto. LA ghettos don’t look like east coast or midwest ghettos – they are mostly little single family bungalows with yards. But it’s the people, not the tenements or projects, that make the ghetto.

    • Agree: PV van der Byl
    • Replies: @Alfa158
    True enough, but it is not all black ghetto. An entire Central American city has transplanted itself into the neighborhood, mostly to the west. And there has been an ongoing slow boil ethnic cleansing of Black people going on. Some Blacks have even left the city for the high desert communities.
    , @Anonymous
    The location is Los Angeles, which definitely appeals to a more glam type of teenager (cf. the provincial backwaters that are most college towns). Nobody cares about the particular neighborhood a university happens to be in; high schoolers aren't 35 year old parents fretting about the quality of the public schools. All these places have large and aggressive security/police forces. And most of the students probably just Uber everywhere anyways.
  78. @JimB

    I don’t believe I’ve ever ordered a $20 glass of wine for myself in my lifetime.
     
    I don't think I've ever paid as much as $20 for a 1.5 liter bottle of wine. Wine should be cheap and mixed two parts water.

    I don’t think I’ve ever paid as much as $20 for a 1.5 liter bottle of wine

    Bottle? Well lah-dee-fucking-dah, Little Lord Fauntleroy, Your Lordship.

    Us men from the lower orders get our plonk in a box like Jesus intended.

    5l casks of a perfectly “buvable” plonk can be had for $12 down our way: about twice a year you can get ‘em at 3 for $30… at which time the cognoscenti will buy 9 and thereby get free delivery.

    It even comes in different flavours: Rosé, Red [rough, smooth or sweet], and even two or 3 types of plonk that’s metabolically efficient because it’s already kinda urine-coloured (oddly, the “Classic dry white” tastes of pineapple juice).

    Even when I lived in Deepest Darkest France (in the Auvergne), I rarely bought plonk by the bot… about once a month we used to fill a 20l plastic bidon at a place in Ambert, at 60 centimes a litre – the refill hoses looked like gas pumps. If you asked for white or Rosé they knew you were foreigners.

    • Replies: @Old Palo Altan
    I do not live in France, but my neighbours have a house there, and we have an agreement that they regularly bring back six or seven five-litre boxes, for which I pay them. It is usually £40.00 or so for the lot. I am drinking from the last of those boxes as I write, but, as they are in France until after Easter, I can turn to my collection of bottled wine without a qualm, knowing that I will be replenished in plenty of time. All of it is of course French, and all of it, even more "of course", is red.

    Expensive wine is for special occasions: the most expensive I ever drank was a bottle of Richebourg 1942 from the Domaine de la Romanée Conti. Even twenty years ago, when I enjoyed it (rather, when I experienced its glory), it was some £1200 a bottle. Now it is more or less unobtainable. The occasion was my host's fortieth wedding anniversary; their were four of us.
    But my point must be that it was worth it: the most magical taste, the headiest of noses.

    But for every day? If you can find them, and pay French prices for them, then the French boxed wines are the only way to go.
  79. USC should’ve done what Columbia did in the late 90s and early 00s: quietly buy up all the property they could adjacent to campus, raze everything and put up gleaming new buildings. I would imagine there was a good opportunity to do just that during the 2009 real estate crash.

  80. @South Texas Guy

    These parents—many of them avowed Trump haters—are furious that what once belonged to them has been taken away, and they are driven mad with the need to reclaim it for their children. The changed admissions landscape at the elite colleges is the aspect of American life that doesn’t feel right to them
     
    This is a facet of White liberalism/leftism that often goes overlooked. A lot of these people have literally said, when caught saying something unPC, 'I voted for Obama!' For them it's all pro-immigration, pro-affirmative action until the rubber meets the road and it's not theoretical anymore, and junior can't get into a name-brand college because 'others' have taken their kids rightful spots.

    Sounds like she is subconsciously talking about the USA and California in particular. Let me cut out the extraneous words:
    “The changed …….. landscape…………………… of American life that doesn’t feel right to them; it’s the lost thing, the arcadia that disappeared so slowly they didn’t even realize it was happening until it was gone. They can’t believe it—they truly can’t believe it.”

  81. @Anonymous
    I think USC occupies a niche for smart, wealthy students who want to go to a brand name school, put a high premium on location and don't have the CV for Harvard, Stanford et al. Other schools of this genus would be NYU, Georgetown, Tufts etc.

    Now why so many ostensibly sophisticated people would pay hundreds of thousands of dollars and commit multiple felonies just to get their children into these schools? Search me. I'm especially interested in the case of the stockbroker who tipped the FBI off to the whole scheme; he had one daughter graduated, one enrolled and one applying to Yale, and he helped frame the Yale soccer coach, all in order to get a lighter sentence in his unrelated securities fraud case. Does that mean he sold his daughters out to save his own ass, as Flanagan suggests in her article? Even for America in 2019 that would be a new low.

    “he helped frame the Yale soccer coach”

    Inasmuch as it appears that the soccer coach actually did what he is accused of, I think “ratted out” is more correct than “framed”.

    That particular shade-of-meaning question will likely not appear on an SAT anytime soon, unless maybe under an Ali G. administration.

  82. @Jack D

    put a high premium on location
     
    If you put a high premium on location, then USC doesn't have it. The black ghetto of LA starts directly outside the edge of the campus. The place where Nipsey Hussle was shot is 15 min. from the campus and it's all continuous ghetto. LA ghettos don't look like east coast or midwest ghettos - they are mostly little single family bungalows with yards. But it's the people, not the tenements or projects, that make the ghetto.

    True enough, but it is not all black ghetto. An entire Central American city has transplanted itself into the neighborhood, mostly to the west. And there has been an ongoing slow boil ethnic cleansing of Black people going on. Some Blacks have even left the city for the high desert communities.

  83. It’s funny. The (White) victims of the people at the top end of immigration, the Asian grinds whose parents sent them from China to insinuate themselves into the system as high school freshmen, are upset with what they lost, and are battling to keep it for their children.

    The (Black) victims of the people at the bottom of immigration, the Mexicans and South Americans who have taken all of the low skill jobs, are not particularly upset and will take welfare. Oh, and reparations, thanks.

  84. @prime noticer
    i know a recent USC grad who is dating a recent UCLA grad. this is considered offensive to the UCLA people. there is a lot of back and forth over this. and yes, the USC guy is wealthy and not as smart as his girlfriend. money talks.

    i used talk with this doctor who is a michigan grad and his wife is a michigan state grad. he called it a mixed marriage.

    On the Strand in the South Bay one of the eight digit beachfront houses flies a flag bearing both the USC and UCLA logos and the legend; “House Divided”.

    • Replies: @res
    http://www.justaskmolly.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/House-divided.jpg

    A similar theme (I imagine this sort of thing is common nationwide if we start looking).

    http://sfcitizen.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/7J7C3048-copy.jpg
  85. @Paul
    A couple of things strike me about colleges:

    One thing is how many of the elite colleges are located in what over the decades have become ghettos and slums.

    And what difference does it make, in terms of what you learn, which college you attend? They all teach the same things anyway.

    And what difference does it make, in terms of what you learn, which college you attend? They all teach the same things anyway.

    This is not true, even just in terms of what you learn and putting aside future networking opportunities and the value of a brand name on your resume, both of which are really big things. Although the PhD. glut means that even lesser schools have high quality instructors, some of the top schools have real superstars. Having really smart kids next to you in class also makes a big difference. 1st of all, in terms of the pace and depth that the professor can teach without losing the class. 2nd in terms of the class atmosphere – the type of questions that the professor gets asked, the quality of the classroom discussion. In terms of the study groups you will form to work on problem sets, etc. If you are brighter than the average student in your U, you will regret having to work with a bunch of people who are significantly dumber than you, if you are less bright, you are going to feel like you are in over your head and that the others are catching on a lot faster than you. Either is not good – ideally you want to be well matched intellectually with your schoolmates.

    The big price differential is between attending your in-state State U and attending a private university. Whether this differential is worth it depends on which state you live in, what field you are interested in, whether you intend to stay in your home state, etc. It’s impossible to say that State U (or Private U) is ALWAYS the right choice – it really depends on the situation.

    • Replies: @RationalExpressions
    What you say is probably only true for a very limited number of schools, like MIT where your child attends and CalTech. Otherwise it’s the undergraduate major that selects the quality of your classmates, not the college.
    , @Grumpy
    There are some abysmally bad public universities, but sharp students graduating from those places still succeed. We tend to overestimate (wildly) the "value added" by a college education.

    We pay dearly for that overestimation. Last weekend, a waitress (a current student) told me that all of her fellow servers were college graduates. One of them had more than a hundred thousand dollars in debt for an anthropology degree.
  86. @anon

    Ever since the scandal became public, two opinions have been widely expressed. The first is that the schemes it revealed are not much different from the long-standing admissions preference for big donors... [This isn't] quite right. As off-putting as most of us find the role that big-ticket fundraising plays in elite-college admissions, those monies go toward programs and facilities that will benefit a wide number of students—new dormitories, new libraries, enriched financial-aid funds are often the result of rich parents being tapped for gifts at admissions time.
     
    What's the Harvard endowment up to now?

    They are quite well endowed.

  87. @Larry, San Francisco
    College admissions are pretty crazy now. My daughter with a 1500 SAT score (almost evenly divided between math and verbal) and good class rank (top 9% from a well regarded private school) got rejected from almost every school she applied to including both her parents alma maters (I guess I should have given more money) and USC. She is in engineering and I know that is harder but still? It was very dispiriting.
    Luckily she eventually did get into a second tier UC school where she is happy.
    I had fairly similar number when I applied to college over 40 years ago. I did not apply to Harvard, Princeton, Stanford or Yale but I got in everywhere else I applied (including Columbia, U of Chicago, Northwestern, Penn, Pomona etc.)

    The population of the US has increased almost 50% since 40 years ago but the # of seats at Top 50 universities has hardly budged at all. When you applied, virtually all of the seats were available to, and went to, white people but now at least 15% or more of the seats are reserved for NAMs. In addition, all of these schools have a significant foreign enrollment which further decreases the the # of seats available to American citizens. Top U’s set aside maybe 10% of seats for foreigners (mainly Chinese) who pay full tuition. In addition, there is a huge new population of Asian Americans who are competing for the remaining seats. It’s just a completely different ball game with different odds – the numerator (the # of seats available to a generic non-NAM) has declined and the denominator (the # of people competing for those seats) has increased and that’s how you end up with 4% admit rates. 4% is an overall rate so once you remove all the NAMS, legacies, athletes, etc. it’s even worse – as an “unhooked” white applicant your chances at Harvard or Stanford are maybe 1 in 50. Ironically, you are better off being from some flyover state – they really don’t get that many applicants from N. Dakota and like to have “geographic diversity”. The worst is if you are just another white or Asian kid in the ring suburbs of the coastal cities.

  88. @Jack D

    And what difference does it make, in terms of what you learn, which college you attend? They all teach the same things anyway.
     
    This is not true, even just in terms of what you learn and putting aside future networking opportunities and the value of a brand name on your resume, both of which are really big things. Although the PhD. glut means that even lesser schools have high quality instructors, some of the top schools have real superstars. Having really smart kids next to you in class also makes a big difference. 1st of all, in terms of the pace and depth that the professor can teach without losing the class. 2nd in terms of the class atmosphere - the type of questions that the professor gets asked, the quality of the classroom discussion. In terms of the study groups you will form to work on problem sets, etc. If you are brighter than the average student in your U, you will regret having to work with a bunch of people who are significantly dumber than you, if you are less bright, you are going to feel like you are in over your head and that the others are catching on a lot faster than you. Either is not good - ideally you want to be well matched intellectually with your schoolmates.

    The big price differential is between attending your in-state State U and attending a private university. Whether this differential is worth it depends on which state you live in, what field you are interested in, whether you intend to stay in your home state, etc. It's impossible to say that State U (or Private U) is ALWAYS the right choice - it really depends on the situation.

    What you say is probably only true for a very limited number of schools, like MIT where your child attends and CalTech. Otherwise it’s the undergraduate major that selects the quality of your classmates, not the college.

  89. Anonymous[151] • Disclaimer says:
    @Jack D

    put a high premium on location
     
    If you put a high premium on location, then USC doesn't have it. The black ghetto of LA starts directly outside the edge of the campus. The place where Nipsey Hussle was shot is 15 min. from the campus and it's all continuous ghetto. LA ghettos don't look like east coast or midwest ghettos - they are mostly little single family bungalows with yards. But it's the people, not the tenements or projects, that make the ghetto.

    The location is Los Angeles, which definitely appeals to a more glam type of teenager (cf. the provincial backwaters that are most college towns). Nobody cares about the particular neighborhood a university happens to be in; high schoolers aren’t 35 year old parents fretting about the quality of the public schools. All these places have large and aggressive security/police forces. And most of the students probably just Uber everywhere anyways.

  90. @Ed
    I caught wind of this resentment of middle class whites towards the admission process when I worked in Baltimore. My co-workers were slightly older with teenagers and would constantly complain about how difficult it was to get into UM. Being black they’d tip toe around discussing the issue with me. However it was clear they blamed affirmative action for much of their kids difficulty getting into UM despite having sterling credentials, according to them.

    So they consoled themselves with their kids going to less stellar state schools or West Virginia University.

    Being black they’d …

    You mean you’re black?

  91. Anonymous[375] • Disclaimer says:
    @Jack D

    But nowadays it’s ridiculously hard to get into USC. Only 13% of applicants get accepted.
     
    If 13% is ridiculously hard, what do you call 4%? Ludicrous? Stanford was at 4.3% last year and this year they stopped reporting but Harvard ticked down from 4.6 to 4.5% so Stanford is probably at 4.2% or so.

    Part of this is due to an arms race in the # of applications kids send in, made possible by greater parental resources and the Common Application (it's easier to just check a bunch of boxes than to fill out many separate applications). Schools also like to have a low admit rate and send out mailings encouraging kids to apply. My daughter's freshman roommate at MIT (a head case) had applied to over 30 schools even though she had sterling credentials and a good story (mother a Cambodian genocide survivor) ... she got into most or all of them. In her case I think it was just an ego/insecurity thing (combined with a lot of parental resources) - getting into all those schools would affirm her worth as a human being. But there are many horror stories of boring white or Asian male types who apply to some large # and don't get in anywhere (good) which only increases the pressure to apply to even more schools in future years.

    If 13% is ridiculously hard, what do you call 4%? Ludicrous? Stanford was at 4.3% last year and this year they stopped reporting but Harvard ticked down from 4.6 to 4.5% so Stanford is probably at 4.2% or so.

    It would be informative if there was a breakdown of acceptance rates. A pole vaulter who’s looking to be on the college track team might have, say, a 50% chance of getting into Stanford. Child of legacy/celebrity/foreign potentate/etc. might have say a 75% chance. While ordinary student with X GPA/scores might have a 25% chance. The statistic lumps everyone together which is not as meaningful.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    I believe there are some stats out for legacy admits - if you are just a plain vanilla legacy and not a big donor, it maybe doubles your chances, so it would take it from 4% to 8% - still WAY less than a sure thing. The % you have for ordinary student, even if you have a high GPA/grade average, is way too high. If the overall % at Stanford for "unhooked" candidates nowadays is maybe 2% (which I think is a fair guess), maybe being an unhooked 1600 takes you back to 4% (and below 1500 SAT, essentially zero - all the low SATs that you see in the stats are in reality reserved for AA and other hooked candidates).

    Giving these daunting stats, you can why people were willing to pay significant bribes. If you are someone who has his heart sending his kid to Stanford and he or she has below 1500 SATs and no "hook", they have virtually no chance of getting in so some sort of bribe (legal or illegal) is literally your only realistic path forward.
    , @res
    The logistic regression model of Harvard admissions at http://www.ceousa.org/attachments/article/1237/CEO%20Study%20Harvard%20Investigates%20Harvard.pdf
    let's you look at that to some extent. Table 1 summarizes the logistic regression coefficients (log odds ratio). This probably won't format well, but hopefully it is good enough. Remember this is a model so approximate, not gospel truth.

    Table 1. OIR’s Logistic Regression Results Predicting Admissions, Data from 2009 through 2016
    Variable Coefficient | Estimate | P-value
    Athletic rating of 1 6.33 0.00
    Personal Rating 1 or 2 2.41 0.00
    Legacy 2.40 0.00
    African American 2.37 0.00
    Native American 1.73 0.00
    Extracurricular 1 or 2 1.58 0.00
    Academic 1 or 2 1.31 0.00
    Standardized Academic Index 1.29 0.00
    Hispanic 1.27 0.00
    CSS self‐ reported income < $60K 0.98 0.00
    International 0.24 0.00
    Asian -0.37 0.00
    Constant -6.23 0.00
    Unknown/Other -0.03 0.41
    Female 0.00 0.87
     
    One thing I found interesting is that being African American has about the same effect as being a legacy.

    This calculator is very helpful for converting those coefficients into probabilities: http://vassarstats.net/tabs.html#odds1
    To do that sum up the relevant coefficients (or enter the equation in the box) and enter into the "Log Odds" box then click calculate. The p box is the probability.

    For some examples. A baseline candidate (all variables 0) has a log odds of the constant = -6.23 giving a probability of 0.2%. Having an athletic rating of 1 gives -6.23 + 6.33 = 0.1 giving a probability of 52.5% (!). Add other coefficients as you see fit.

    From a comment on this page: https://talk.collegeconfidential.com/harvard-university/2093478-harvard-admission-rating-system.html
    we see: A “1” athletic rating is used to refer to an athlete recruited by a Harvard varsity team.

  92. @Daniel H
    Caitlin Flanagan taught English to Catholic High School boys for 4 years. Not too bad meeting this everyday. Lucky fellas.

    https://cdn.theatlantic.com/assets/media/img/authors/f/caitlin-flanagan/headshot/original.png

    Yeah but Ms Flanagan still can’t resist putting the boot into white-people-who-we-all-know-are-crashing-down-in-the-world.

    These rich strivers who are concerned for their kids are more deplorables don’t you know?

    From The Atlantic article:

    But what accounted for the intensity of emotion these parents expressed, their sense of a profound loss, of rage at being robbed of what they believed was rightfully theirs? They were experiencing the same response to a changing America that ultimately brought Donald Trump to office: white displacement and a revised social contract. The collapse of manufacturing jobs has been to poor whites what the elite college-admissions crunch has been to wealthy ones: a smaller and smaller slice of pie for people who were used to having the fattest piece of all.

    • Agree: Nathan
    • Replies: @dvorak

    Yeah but Ms Flanagan still can’t resist putting the boot into white-people-who-we-all-know-are-crashing-down-in-the-world.

    These rich strivers who are concerned for their kids are more deplorables don’t you know?
     
    Her shout out to Tom Wolfe and use of the triggering term "limousine liberal" - lead one to believe the section you cite is at least somewhat ironic or arch.
  93. @Jack D

    And what difference does it make, in terms of what you learn, which college you attend? They all teach the same things anyway.
     
    This is not true, even just in terms of what you learn and putting aside future networking opportunities and the value of a brand name on your resume, both of which are really big things. Although the PhD. glut means that even lesser schools have high quality instructors, some of the top schools have real superstars. Having really smart kids next to you in class also makes a big difference. 1st of all, in terms of the pace and depth that the professor can teach without losing the class. 2nd in terms of the class atmosphere - the type of questions that the professor gets asked, the quality of the classroom discussion. In terms of the study groups you will form to work on problem sets, etc. If you are brighter than the average student in your U, you will regret having to work with a bunch of people who are significantly dumber than you, if you are less bright, you are going to feel like you are in over your head and that the others are catching on a lot faster than you. Either is not good - ideally you want to be well matched intellectually with your schoolmates.

    The big price differential is between attending your in-state State U and attending a private university. Whether this differential is worth it depends on which state you live in, what field you are interested in, whether you intend to stay in your home state, etc. It's impossible to say that State U (or Private U) is ALWAYS the right choice - it really depends on the situation.

    There are some abysmally bad public universities, but sharp students graduating from those places still succeed. We tend to overestimate (wildly) the “value added” by a college education.

    We pay dearly for that overestimation. Last weekend, a waitress (a current student) told me that all of her fellow servers were college graduates. One of them had more than a hundred thousand dollars in debt for an anthropology degree.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    It really depends which college and which degree. Some have a large positive present value, others don't.

    There are some people who are going to succeed regardless of which college they attend or even if they don't attend at all and there are some people born with a silver spoon in their mouth who are going to be screw-ups even if they go to Yale, but on the whole there is a correlation between where you attend and success.

    In recent times this is starting to break down in that the kids who actually get into Harvard are AA or other "hooked" admits and the nerdy Asian kids who SHOULD have gotten in by dint of their 1600 SATs and 4.0 averages end up at Carnegie Mellon or Hopkins, so they are the ones who end up being the real success stories and not the Harvard AA admits who shouldn't have gone there in the 1st place.
  94. PSR says:
    @al-Gharaniq

    One reason UCLA students had more money to spend was because California taxpayers picked up almost all the tab for our tuition. I paid something like $2,200 over two years for an MBA.
     
    As much as hate to admit it, it's things like this that make me feel sympathetic to Bernie Sanders's economic agenda. Why should state schools cost so much for in-state students nowadays? Why aren't there more federally funded public universities?

    Part of this is due to excessive student enrollment—which needs to be curtailed regardless—but I can still feel the zeitgeist behind parts of Sanders's agenda.

    Why do state schools cost so much? Cue the statistic about Michigan employing enough diversity/inclusion staff (in other words useless administrative staff) to pay the admissions of 700 students. No one in academia and in their right mind wants to teach anymore. You want the administrative job with no measurable outputs and plenty of conferences to attend. You make the part-time adjuncts actually do the dirty work.

  95. Yes, the leftists are feeling the backlash of affirmative action. USC isn’t even a top tier school
    but it’s much harder now for whites to get in.
    I went to an elite school, but there is no way I would be accepted today.
    I stopped going to the alumni functions because of the shitlibs and blue hairs
    and NON-WHITES.
    In fact, just a few days ago I got the stupid alumni mag and naturally it had a long
    article on “racism.”
    The mag went right to the trash. I can’t bear to read it anymore.
    Ron’s piece on “The Myth of the American Meritocracy” opened my eyes
    to the fact that our heritage is being stolen from us.
    I just remembered the Youtube clip from Dartmouth where the black students invaded the
    school library and assaulted white kids while screaming about “RACISTS.”
    Sad.

    • Replies: @prime noticer
    similar situation here.

    i could still get in, but i'd never want to go there now. they go out of their way to block guys like me. i'd have to rely on being a jock and getting recruited by one of the sports coaches. despite being a national merit scholar, they'd want nothing to do with me.

    i just dump the alum magazine straight into the garbage.

    long ago had them take me off all email lists, and tried to get off their paper mail lists, but somehow those letters requesting money still find their way to me.

    i'm considering doing a post on here about how few national merit scholars there actually are at these universities, relative to the number of students in the incoming class, and how basically every one of them should just be automatically admitted, but instead, most of them are rejected if they're guys like me.

    what this means is the mean intelligence of the students today at these universities is a lot lower than it would naturally be.
  96. Steve,
    A friend related his experience as Assistant Headmaster of one of your Los Angeles area private schools. The parents would call at all hours with increasingly frantic and menacing tones as admissions deadlines loomed. He said that there were also minor peaks around mid-terms and finals.

    The typical calls, or worse, office visits, usually included some pointed reminder about just how much money those concerned parents were spending to pay for his services to ensure admission to the school of their choice. They had an element of Tiger Mom, without the charm. He eventually took a job out of state, where his pedigree would be put to use with more appreciative families, and with more affordable housing.

  97. PSR says:
    @South Texas Guy

    These parents—many of them avowed Trump haters—are furious that what once belonged to them has been taken away, and they are driven mad with the need to reclaim it for their children. The changed admissions landscape at the elite colleges is the aspect of American life that doesn’t feel right to them
     
    This is a facet of White liberalism/leftism that often goes overlooked. A lot of these people have literally said, when caught saying something unPC, 'I voted for Obama!' For them it's all pro-immigration, pro-affirmative action until the rubber meets the road and it's not theoretical anymore, and junior can't get into a name-brand college because 'others' have taken their kids rightful spots.

    Or what I so often see living in a medium sized midwestern city surrounded by suburbs. They love the diversity of their neighborhood, the darkening of their little suburb, um, until Junior or Missy are ready to start first grade and then then they high tail it to the high cost/high tax suburbs that are still 85% white and 10% Asian.

  98. This amusing Rick Springer college admissions scandal

    iSteve carrying water for Jews by Anglicizing Rick Singer’s name … iSteve must be controlled opposition.

  99. I paid something like $2,200 over two years for an MBA.

    insert Old Economy Steve meme here…except iSteve is the only based Boomer Steve in the country.

  100. @Daniel H
    Why is USC so popular now? This should be as good a reason as any.

    http://totalfratmove.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/d48868f140a312fd061129869af6187c.png

    Which lucky lad(ies) will have Reggie Bush’s children

  101. @South Texas Guy

    These parents—many of them avowed Trump haters—are furious that what once belonged to them has been taken away, and they are driven mad with the need to reclaim it for their children. The changed admissions landscape at the elite colleges is the aspect of American life that doesn’t feel right to them
     
    This is a facet of White liberalism/leftism that often goes overlooked. A lot of these people have literally said, when caught saying something unPC, 'I voted for Obama!' For them it's all pro-immigration, pro-affirmative action until the rubber meets the road and it's not theoretical anymore, and junior can't get into a name-brand college because 'others' have taken their kids rightful spots.

    As I interact more with SWPLs and SJWs and BoBos who have started to have kids, it seems they actually do know the impact of the social policies they support, but they just have this unshakable belief that somehow they’ll still come out unscathed and on top — why wouldn’t they, given how fervently they demonstrate their own holiness? You know that Steinbeck quote, “Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires”? Like most smug sarcastic quips that leftists utter against their political enemies, it’s all rooted in projection.

  102. Caitlin Flanagan’s article is actually a nasty piece of gloating, and confirms a lot of what I’ve felt about high school guidance counselors and teachers. She doesn’t have the self-awareness to realize that she was part of the problem, and even if she didn’t participate in anything unethical, she was part of a system that reinforced the “privilege” she pretends to despise and the “changes” that she, in a very small way, helped bring about. Notice once again that it’s not the privilege or the elitism that’s the problem. She admits that legacies getting in with big donations are an overall benefit to the school. It’s that the wrong people are arrogating privileges to themselves that the Caitlin Flanagans of the world feel that they don’t deserve. It’s the strivers, the social climbers, that are villains in Ms. Flanagan’s own private Jane Austin novel. They don’t deserve what they used to have. They never deserved it, and she, with her good taste and just-right family background, put herself into a position to make sure they knew it. Notice also how she slips into the passive voice when talking about the “changed” college landscape, and uses “he” when talking about an unattractive college prospect? Those are deliberate grammatical choices. She really hates these people.

    But what kind of person puts herself in a position of authority over the CHILDREN of people she hates? What kind of person becomes a high school guidance counselor to people she considers enemies? They know they have no real impact on a kid’s prospects in life; they can’t change the circumstances of anyone’s birth, but they like being in a position to let them down as they fall into life’s circumstances. That’s ugly. That’s a job for a loser.

    • Replies: @FredAG
    I picked up on this too. But, to be fair, she would say the "hate" was mutual.

    But what kind of person puts herself in a position of authority over the CHILDREN of people she hates?

    -A person with a car payment to make.
    , @simple_pseudonymic_handle
    If it makes you feel any better the depth of hatred for Caitlin Flanagan among leftists is 10 on a scale of 10. Read any thread on metafilter discussing any Caitlin Flanagan magazine article.

    She trolls both ways. If you could still make big dough writing for the Enquirer she would be rolling in it. She really should have been a Hollywood gossip columnist a couple generations ago. When the New York Times downsizes Dowd if they hire another white broad for twice-a-week it's going to be Flanagan and then she will have arrived at the top of the pyramid.
    , @education realist
    I don't like Flanagan, and I agree that's the tone that comes from this particular articloe. But I wouldn't ascribe any one view to her. She adopts whatever opinion allows her to spit on someone.
  103. Also, it’s too bad about her politics because:

    Someone conservative dude should have converted her. Too bad.

  104. @Bill B.
    Yeah but Ms Flanagan still can't resist putting the boot into white-people-who-we-all-know-are-crashing-down-in-the-world.

    These rich strivers who are concerned for their kids are more deplorables don't you know?

    From The Atlantic article:

    But what accounted for the intensity of emotion these parents expressed, their sense of a profound loss, of rage at being robbed of what they believed was rightfully theirs? They were experiencing the same response to a changing America that ultimately brought Donald Trump to office: white displacement and a revised social contract. The collapse of manufacturing jobs has been to poor whites what the elite college-admissions crunch has been to wealthy ones: a smaller and smaller slice of pie for people who were used to having the fattest piece of all.
     

    Yeah but Ms Flanagan still can’t resist putting the boot into white-people-who-we-all-know-are-crashing-down-in-the-world.

    These rich strivers who are concerned for their kids are more deplorables don’t you know?

    Her shout out to Tom Wolfe and use of the triggering term “limousine liberal” – lead one to believe the section you cite is at least somewhat ironic or arch.

    • Replies: @Bill B.

    Her shout out to Tom Wolfe and use of the triggering term “limousine liberal” – lead one to believe the section you cite is at least somewhat ironic or arch.
     
    Hmm. I can just about see that but I haven't got a very subtle mind. I would like a little more signaling of ironic intent in this febrile political climate.
  105. @Paul
    That is why I qualified it with "in terms of what you learn."

    ‘That is why I qualified it with “in terms of what you learn.”’

    they do not all teach the same thing, is what i’m saying.

  106. @Robert Dolan
    Yes, the leftists are feeling the backlash of affirmative action. USC isn't even a top tier school
    but it's much harder now for whites to get in.
    I went to an elite school, but there is no way I would be accepted today.
    I stopped going to the alumni functions because of the shitlibs and blue hairs
    and NON-WHITES.
    In fact, just a few days ago I got the stupid alumni mag and naturally it had a long
    article on "racism."
    The mag went right to the trash. I can't bear to read it anymore.
    Ron's piece on "The Myth of the American Meritocracy" opened my eyes
    to the fact that our heritage is being stolen from us.
    I just remembered the Youtube clip from Dartmouth where the black students invaded the
    school library and assaulted white kids while screaming about "RACISTS."
    Sad.

    similar situation here.

    i could still get in, but i’d never want to go there now. they go out of their way to block guys like me. i’d have to rely on being a jock and getting recruited by one of the sports coaches. despite being a national merit scholar, they’d want nothing to do with me.

    i just dump the alum magazine straight into the garbage.

    long ago had them take me off all email lists, and tried to get off their paper mail lists, but somehow those letters requesting money still find their way to me.

    i’m considering doing a post on here about how few national merit scholars there actually are at these universities, relative to the number of students in the incoming class, and how basically every one of them should just be automatically admitted, but instead, most of them are rejected if they’re guys like me.

    what this means is the mean intelligence of the students today at these universities is a lot lower than it would naturally be.

    • Agree: Desiderius
  107. @Anonymous
    This orthodontics grad from USC racked up $1 million in debt which will increase over the next 25 years to $2 million:

    https://www.advisory.com/daily-briefing/2018/05/30/student-loans

    Mike Meru, an orthodontist in Draper, Utah, is one of the 101 students with more than $1 million in federal student loan debt, the Journal reports

    Meru attended the University of Southern California (USC,) one of the costliest dental schools in the country. At the start of his program, Meru said, USC estimated that the basic four-year program would require Meru to take out $400,000 to $450,000 in student loans, including interest.

    After his first year, USC's tuition rose by 6% and his student loan interest rate jumped from 4.75% to 6.8%. During his third year, USC raised tuition by another 6%. By the end of his fourth year of school, Meru had taken out about $340,000 in student loans, which the Journal notes was still in line with the school's initial projections.

    However, those projections did not take into account the fact that most dental residencies take place at universities that charge residents tuition. By the end of his three-year residency, Meru had borrowed $601,506 in student loans. At that time, he decided to use a government option known as forbearance to postpone payments and use his new salary to support his growing family. However, interest continued to accrue during that time period, and between the interest and related fees, the Journal reports Meru now owes $1,060,945.42 in student loan debt.

    In 2015, Meru refinanced his debt with the federal government and entered a 25-year repayment plan under which he makes monthly student loan payments equal to 10% of his discretionary income—which is defined as his adjusted gross income minus 150% of the poverty level. For Meru, that comes out to $1,589.97 a month—which is not enough to cover the interest on his student loans, meaning that his debt grows daily by $130. According to the Journal, Meru's debt under his current repayment plan is projected to continue to rise over the next 25 years when it will reach $2 million, at which point, the remaining sum will be forgiven. Under Meru's plan any sum beyond 25 years qualifies for loan forgiveness, the Journal reports. By that time, Meru is projected to have paid a total of about $1.6 million, according to the Journal.
     

    This is a sad and scary tale. This man, Mike Meru, is literally a slave to debt. He cannot discharge, or significantly modify that debt under current law.

    Meru has two options 1) understand the next 25 years of his life will be determined by his slave master and accept his fate. 2) Emigrate abroad. This option is not too bad. The man has excellent credentials that will be accepted in any nation with out hesitation. He can have a good, enriching life in many locales. Take his pick: Canada, Germany, Italy, France, Netherlands, Norway, etc…. And he can always come back and visit the USA. I know what I would do if I were in his shoes.

  108. @Alfa158
    On the Strand in the South Bay one of the eight digit beachfront houses flies a flag bearing both the USC and UCLA logos and the legend; “House Divided”.

    A similar theme (I imagine this sort of thing is common nationwide if we start looking).

  109. @Kratoklastes

    I don’t think I’ve ever paid as much as $20 for a 1.5 liter bottle of wine
     
    Bottle? Well lah-dee-fucking-dah, Little Lord Fauntleroy, Your Lordship.

    Us men from the lower orders get our plonk in a box like Jesus intended.

    5l casks of a perfectly “buvable” plonk can be had for $12 down our way: about twice a year you can get ‘em at 3 for $30... at which time the cognoscenti will buy 9 and thereby get free delivery.

    It even comes in different flavours: Rosé, Red [rough, smooth or sweet], and even two or 3 types of plonk that’s metabolically efficient because it’s already kinda urine-coloured (oddly, the “Classic dry white” tastes of pineapple juice).

    Even when I lived in Deepest Darkest France (in the Auvergne), I rarely bought plonk by the bot... about once a month we used to fill a 20l plastic bidon at a place in Ambert, at 60 centimes a litre - the refill hoses looked like gas pumps. If you asked for white or Rosé they knew you were foreigners.

    I do not live in France, but my neighbours have a house there, and we have an agreement that they regularly bring back six or seven five-litre boxes, for which I pay them. It is usually £40.00 or so for the lot. I am drinking from the last of those boxes as I write, but, as they are in France until after Easter, I can turn to my collection of bottled wine without a qualm, knowing that I will be replenished in plenty of time. All of it is of course French, and all of it, even more “of course”, is red.

    Expensive wine is for special occasions: the most expensive I ever drank was a bottle of Richebourg 1942 from the Domaine de la Romanée Conti. Even twenty years ago, when I enjoyed it (rather, when I experienced its glory), it was some £1200 a bottle. Now it is more or less unobtainable. The occasion was my host’s fortieth wedding anniversary; their were four of us.
    But my point must be that it was worth it: the most magical taste, the headiest of noses.

    But for every day? If you can find them, and pay French prices for them, then the French boxed wines are the only way to go.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    There are some decent inexpensive French wines available - while the high end stuff has worldwide demand and has only gotten more expensive, at the lower end French per capita wine consumption has fallen from its former spectacularly high level - not just because more Frenchmen are now named "Mohamed" but because younger people prefer Coke, beer, etc. just like Western consumers everywhere. This has freed up space for better viticultural practices, less cheating, etc. - the low end producers are producing less but better stuff.

    That being said, if you are outside of France, there is a lot of good wine being made everywhere nowadays, and in some places that have perhaps more reliable wine growing climates than France - California, NZ, Australia, Chile, Spain, Argentina, Italy, even S. Africa. So for consumers in the US, France is not necessarily the #1 choice for low end wine.
    , @JimB

    Expensive wine is for special occasions: the most expensive I ever drank was a bottle of Richebourg 1942 from the Domaine de la Romanée Conti.
     
    Did you wash down your celebratory larks tongue in aspic with that expensive wine? Just as I don’t believe in the superiority of Stradivarius violins over expertly crafted mass marketed ones, I don’t believe in the merits of some types of musty grape juice over others. But I guess that’s why I live in a split level in a former cow town and not in Palo Alto.
  110. @Grumpy
    There are some abysmally bad public universities, but sharp students graduating from those places still succeed. We tend to overestimate (wildly) the "value added" by a college education.

    We pay dearly for that overestimation. Last weekend, a waitress (a current student) told me that all of her fellow servers were college graduates. One of them had more than a hundred thousand dollars in debt for an anthropology degree.

    It really depends which college and which degree. Some have a large positive present value, others don’t.

    There are some people who are going to succeed regardless of which college they attend or even if they don’t attend at all and there are some people born with a silver spoon in their mouth who are going to be screw-ups even if they go to Yale, but on the whole there is a correlation between where you attend and success.

    In recent times this is starting to break down in that the kids who actually get into Harvard are AA or other “hooked” admits and the nerdy Asian kids who SHOULD have gotten in by dint of their 1600 SATs and 4.0 averages end up at Carnegie Mellon or Hopkins, so they are the ones who end up being the real success stories and not the Harvard AA admits who shouldn’t have gone there in the 1st place.

  111. @Daniel H
    Caitlin Flanagan taught English to Catholic High School boys for 4 years. Not too bad meeting this everyday. Lucky fellas.

    https://cdn.theatlantic.com/assets/media/img/authors/f/caitlin-flanagan/headshot/original.png

    It’s Harvard-Westlake which is on Coldwater Canyon, not Loyola.

    • Replies: @PV van der Byl
    Yes. And Westlake's Old Girls include the formidable Heather McDonald.
    , @Daniel H
    Yeah, I should have sussed that out. It's been my experience and observation that parents of Catholic school boys/girls just don't act out like that. There is a certain fatalism that goes with being Catholic.
    , @Reg Cæsar

    It’s Harvard-Westlake which is on Coldwater Canyon, not Loyola.
     
    The composer Leroy Anderson bragged that his entire (civilian) education, from kindergarten to a graduate degree, occurred on a single street, Washington Avenue in Cambridge*.

    Can that be done anywhere in LA?

    Are there still "normal schools" about, grade schools attached to a teachers' college? I spent a grade at one.


    *Massachusetts. I doubt there's a "Washington Avenue" in the original Cambridge. But you could consider the A1 to be one, I suppose.

  112. @Daniel H
    Caitlin Flanagan taught English to Catholic High School boys for 4 years. Not too bad meeting this everyday. Lucky fellas.

    https://cdn.theatlantic.com/assets/media/img/authors/f/caitlin-flanagan/headshot/original.png

    What is some potato-eater teaching the Queen’s English fer!?

    And what does she mean she tapped out of a PhD program? Did she flunk or quit because she was going to flunk?

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    What is some potato-eater teaching the Queen’s English fer!?
     
    She was born in Berkeley. In 1958. That's awfully damned early for an American "Caitlin".

    Were her parents from the Isle? How does she pronounce it? It's supposed to be like "Kathleen" in Brooklynese.
  113. @Thinker
    The college consultant's name is Rick Singer not Springer. A member of the tribe. At least half the people involved in this scam are Jewish.

    I guess what it boils down to is vanity. Rich and powerful people just can't well tell their friends at cocktail parties that their kids are going to Arizona State or Loyola College. Imagine the horror, or worse, "Never heard of it!" The embarrassment! Not only do they need people to know they're rich, but they also want people to think their kids are smart, which is a reflection of their own intelligence, and good parenting. Second string schools are for the plebs.

    USC is a football team with a school attached to it. Any school known for its football has got to have a good Greek scene, that's what those rich kids are there for, to party with other rich kids. Academics are for the Asians. One thing for sure this scandal totally boosted the stock of USC. Next year they are sure to get a huge bump in applications. Their admission rate is already down to 11% this year. Next thing you know they'll be a top 10 school on US News.

    Elite colleges need to knock off the facade and admit what they are really in education for -- to build the largest war chest aka endowment fund to boost the school's prestige. Why let cockroaches like Rick Singer or the coaches pocket all the cash when they are sitting on such valuable commodities? Set aside 10% of their seats and auction them off to the highest bidders. Then, throw the plebs a few bones by giving away a few more token scholarships to the "under represented minorities", and of course, admit enough Asians to boost the median SAT scores, though not enough to kill off the party scene.

    This is pretty much the formula now anyway with the legacy and "development" admits, might as well make it official. This way, the school gets to pocket all the cash, cut out the middle man, and the rich can buy prestige the legitimate way without having to go to jail. Win-win!

    Vanity, okay. But it’s just USC. Of all things to be vain about…

  114. @Paul
    A couple of things strike me about colleges:

    One thing is how many of the elite colleges are located in what over the decades have become ghettos and slums.

    And what difference does it make, in terms of what you learn, which college you attend? They all teach the same things anyway.

    Most STEM fields are fairly standardized in terms of the sequence of courses, material covered, and even the textbooks used. At very high prestige schools they may use a more difficult or obscure textbook, or one that was written by the teaching prof (no conflict of interest there!), or they’ll jump straight to the text that is usually considered the definitive graduate-level treatment. I’ve generally found that the ‘standard’ texts used by the state Us are usually the best from a pedagogical perspective: they became the standard for a reason.

    One thing that varies by school is how far you make it into the text. For example a course at one school may cover half of the standard text while another goes from cover to cover. But, you have the book and can always finish it up on your own. To be frank, usually the combination of 1.) the textbook author 2.) random internet sources, and 3.) well designed problem sets do a better job than your lecturer of imparting understanding. So the university itself is kinda superfluous, at least at the undergrad level.

    Of course none of this really matters because the only reason you go to a university is 1.) signaling and 2.) networking. If it were about knowledge you could just download a reading list and some problem sets and be done with it.

    • Agree: Triumph104
    • Replies: @Coburn
    As an engineering student I was always relieved when we used one of the popular test books. At least that assured the material was presented in an accessible manner. I hated classes with the author of a text book. Invariably, the book would be poorly written and the material would be more difficult to understand.

    The worst was the professor who would ‘self publish’ a book at the local Kinkos. In other words, the book was so bad, no publisher would touch it. The class text would be collection of cryptic notes and idiosyncratic derivations of equations.
  115. @Anonymous

    If 13% is ridiculously hard, what do you call 4%? Ludicrous? Stanford was at 4.3% last year and this year they stopped reporting but Harvard ticked down from 4.6 to 4.5% so Stanford is probably at 4.2% or so.
     
    It would be informative if there was a breakdown of acceptance rates. A pole vaulter who's looking to be on the college track team might have, say, a 50% chance of getting into Stanford. Child of legacy/celebrity/foreign potentate/etc. might have say a 75% chance. While ordinary student with X GPA/scores might have a 25% chance. The statistic lumps everyone together which is not as meaningful.

    I believe there are some stats out for legacy admits – if you are just a plain vanilla legacy and not a big donor, it maybe doubles your chances, so it would take it from 4% to 8% – still WAY less than a sure thing. The % you have for ordinary student, even if you have a high GPA/grade average, is way too high. If the overall % at Stanford for “unhooked” candidates nowadays is maybe 2% (which I think is a fair guess), maybe being an unhooked 1600 takes you back to 4% (and below 1500 SAT, essentially zero – all the low SATs that you see in the stats are in reality reserved for AA and other hooked candidates).

    Giving these daunting stats, you can why people were willing to pay significant bribes. If you are someone who has his heart sending his kid to Stanford and he or she has below 1500 SATs and no “hook”, they have virtually no chance of getting in so some sort of bribe (legal or illegal) is literally your only realistic path forward.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    If you’re trying to compete on test scores you’re pissing into the wind for two reasons:

    (A) The top end has been normed off the scale.

    (B) Asian families have been doing high stakes testing for centuries.

    As with any sales job, you need to figure out how to add maximum value to your customer then deliver it. For the unscrupulous that’s the admission committee, otherwise you’ll need something that will come to the attention of the decision-makers in the school itself.
    , @keuril

    if you are just a plain vanilla legacy and not a big donor, it maybe doubles your chances, so it would take it from 4% to 8% – still WAY less than a sure thing.
     
    Actually the legacy admit rate is more like 34% for Harvard. HUGE hook. https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2018/10/21/dockets-ratings-tips-how-harvard-admissions-selects-student/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.fd34c482912d
  116. res says:
    @Anonymous

    If 13% is ridiculously hard, what do you call 4%? Ludicrous? Stanford was at 4.3% last year and this year they stopped reporting but Harvard ticked down from 4.6 to 4.5% so Stanford is probably at 4.2% or so.
     
    It would be informative if there was a breakdown of acceptance rates. A pole vaulter who's looking to be on the college track team might have, say, a 50% chance of getting into Stanford. Child of legacy/celebrity/foreign potentate/etc. might have say a 75% chance. While ordinary student with X GPA/scores might have a 25% chance. The statistic lumps everyone together which is not as meaningful.

    The logistic regression model of Harvard admissions at http://www.ceousa.org/attachments/article/1237/CEO%20Study%20Harvard%20Investigates%20Harvard.pdf
    let’s you look at that to some extent. Table 1 summarizes the logistic regression coefficients (log odds ratio). This probably won’t format well, but hopefully it is good enough. Remember this is a model so approximate, not gospel truth.

    Table 1. OIR’s Logistic Regression Results Predicting Admissions, Data from 2009 through 2016
    Variable Coefficient | Estimate | P-value
    Athletic rating of 1 6.33 0.00
    Personal Rating 1 or 2 2.41 0.00
    Legacy 2.40 0.00
    African American 2.37 0.00
    Native American 1.73 0.00
    Extracurricular 1 or 2 1.58 0.00
    Academic 1 or 2 1.31 0.00
    Standardized Academic Index 1.29 0.00
    Hispanic 1.27 0.00
    CSS self‐ reported income < $60K 0.98 0.00
    International 0.24 0.00
    Asian -0.37 0.00
    Constant -6.23 0.00
    Unknown/Other -0.03 0.41
    Female 0.00 0.87

    One thing I found interesting is that being African American has about the same effect as being a legacy.

    This calculator is very helpful for converting those coefficients into probabilities: http://vassarstats.net/tabs.html#odds1
    To do that sum up the relevant coefficients (or enter the equation in the box) and enter into the “Log Odds” box then click calculate. The p box is the probability.

    For some examples. A baseline candidate (all variables 0) has a log odds of the constant = -6.23 giving a probability of 0.2%. Having an athletic rating of 1 gives -6.23 + 6.33 = 0.1 giving a probability of 52.5% (!). Add other coefficients as you see fit.

    From a comment on this page: https://talk.collegeconfidential.com/harvard-university/2093478-harvard-admission-rating-system.html
    we see: A “1” athletic rating is used to refer to an athlete recruited by a Harvard varsity team.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    If you are an athlete AND black, your odds are starting to look pretty good.

    However, it seems like there is a play there for a smart but personable white kid (Asians rarely get high personal ratings) with strong extracurriculars:

    Personal Rating 1 or 2 +Extracurricular 1 0r 2 +Academic 1 or 2 + Standardized Academic Index gives you 6.59 which is as good as being an athlete.
    , @Steve Sailer
    Thanks.

    Has anybody ever published any researched into how much donating legacies tend to do?

  117. @Old Palo Altan
    It's Harvard-Westlake which is on Coldwater Canyon, not Loyola.

    Yes. And Westlake’s Old Girls include the formidable Heather McDonald.

  118. @Old Palo Altan
    I do not live in France, but my neighbours have a house there, and we have an agreement that they regularly bring back six or seven five-litre boxes, for which I pay them. It is usually £40.00 or so for the lot. I am drinking from the last of those boxes as I write, but, as they are in France until after Easter, I can turn to my collection of bottled wine without a qualm, knowing that I will be replenished in plenty of time. All of it is of course French, and all of it, even more "of course", is red.

    Expensive wine is for special occasions: the most expensive I ever drank was a bottle of Richebourg 1942 from the Domaine de la Romanée Conti. Even twenty years ago, when I enjoyed it (rather, when I experienced its glory), it was some £1200 a bottle. Now it is more or less unobtainable. The occasion was my host's fortieth wedding anniversary; their were four of us.
    But my point must be that it was worth it: the most magical taste, the headiest of noses.

    But for every day? If you can find them, and pay French prices for them, then the French boxed wines are the only way to go.

    There are some decent inexpensive French wines available – while the high end stuff has worldwide demand and has only gotten more expensive, at the lower end French per capita wine consumption has fallen from its former spectacularly high level – not just because more Frenchmen are now named “Mohamed” but because younger people prefer Coke, beer, etc. just like Western consumers everywhere. This has freed up space for better viticultural practices, less cheating, etc. – the low end producers are producing less but better stuff.

    That being said, if you are outside of France, there is a lot of good wine being made everywhere nowadays, and in some places that have perhaps more reliable wine growing climates than France – California, NZ, Australia, Chile, Spain, Argentina, Italy, even S. Africa. So for consumers in the US, France is not necessarily the #1 choice for low end wine.

    • Replies: @Old Palo Altan
    "So for consumers in the US, France is not necessarily the #1 choice for low end wine."

    I agree. When in the USA (which for me means California) I drink exclusively Californian wines and from the Napa Valley if given the choice.
    Chilean wines are consistently decent; Italian wines veer from detestable to sublime; for me, Australian ones are hard to take, like Australians themselves.
  119. @Jack D
    There are some decent inexpensive French wines available - while the high end stuff has worldwide demand and has only gotten more expensive, at the lower end French per capita wine consumption has fallen from its former spectacularly high level - not just because more Frenchmen are now named "Mohamed" but because younger people prefer Coke, beer, etc. just like Western consumers everywhere. This has freed up space for better viticultural practices, less cheating, etc. - the low end producers are producing less but better stuff.

    That being said, if you are outside of France, there is a lot of good wine being made everywhere nowadays, and in some places that have perhaps more reliable wine growing climates than France - California, NZ, Australia, Chile, Spain, Argentina, Italy, even S. Africa. So for consumers in the US, France is not necessarily the #1 choice for low end wine.

    “So for consumers in the US, France is not necessarily the #1 choice for low end wine.”

    I agree. When in the USA (which for me means California) I drink exclusively Californian wines and from the Napa Valley if given the choice.
    Chilean wines are consistently decent; Italian wines veer from detestable to sublime; for me, Australian ones are hard to take, like Australians themselves.

  120. @stillCARealist
    This is such a great thread! Sushi is certainly one of the biggest food scams out there. It's so gross and overpriced it rivals caviar and foie gras.

    Hey waiter, serve me something disgusting, uncooked, and derived from beach-combings. Oh, and charge me whatever you can get away with. Can I get it with a side of offal? Perfect!

    Agree: it’s a great thread, and sushi is disgusting.

    Disagree: offal can be superb. Try andouillette when you are next in France. It may be sausage made from pig’s intestine’s but it is delicious, and in a very memorable way.

  121. @Old Palo Altan
    It's Harvard-Westlake which is on Coldwater Canyon, not Loyola.

    Yeah, I should have sussed that out. It’s been my experience and observation that parents of Catholic school boys/girls just don’t act out like that. There is a certain fatalism that goes with being Catholic.

    • Replies: @Old Palo Altan
    You are absolutely right.

    And anyway, in the eyes of eternity it all matters not a jot.
  122. @Jim Bob Lassiter
    As Foster Brooks would say, "Are you sure you're not a wine connoisseur?"

    As Foster Brooks would say, “Are you sure you’re not a wine connoisseur?”

    Or a cheap wine connoisseur of cheap wines.

  123. @prime noticer
    "Not to be confused with the University of Stubborn Confederates 2100 miles away at the same latitude."

    i was on the south carolina campus one time and the people who go to that USC claim it is the real USC, not that other USC.

    decent university, but the rest of south carolina, well, they don't call it the dirty south for nothing. columbia was run down.

    I want to walk around Charlottesville and Durham in my Virginia Blue Devils hoodie.

    Someday I’ll get a Pekin Chinks jersey and wear it in Hong Kong. I did wear a Chief Wahoo hat one whole summer in an Alaskan village with plenty of Indians.

    • Replies: @Jim Bob Lassiter
    In what part of and when did you walk about Durham?
  124. @guest
    What is some potato-eater teaching the Queen's English fer!?

    And what does she mean she tapped out of a PhD program? Did she flunk or quit because she was going to flunk?

    What is some potato-eater teaching the Queen’s English fer!?

    She was born in Berkeley. In 1958. That’s awfully damned early for an American “Caitlin”.

    Were her parents from the Isle? How does she pronounce it? It’s supposed to be like “Kathleen” in Brooklynese.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Her father wrote the epic literary bestseller "The Year of the French" about the Irish uprising of 1798.

    "Thomas Flanagan (1923–2002), the grandson of Irish immigrants, grew up in Greenwich, Connecticut, where he ran the school newspaper with his friend Truman Capote. Flanagan attended Amherst College (with a two-year hiatus to serve in the Pacific Fleet) and earned his Ph.D. from Columbia University, where he studied under Lionel Trilling while also writing stories for Ellery Queen’s Mystery Magazine. In 1959, he published an important scholarly work, The Irish Novelists, 1800 to 1850, and the next year he moved to Berkeley, where he was to teach English and Irish literature at the University of California for many years. In 1978 he took up a post at the State University of New York at Stonybrook, from which he retired in 1996. Flanagan and his wife Jean made annual trips to Ireland, where he struck up friendships with many writers, including Benedict Kiely and Seamus Heaney, whom he in turn helped bring to the United States. His intimate knowledge of Ireland’s history and literature also helped to inspire his trilogy of historical novels, starting with The Year of the French (1979, winner of the National Critics’ Circle award for fiction, reissued by NYRB Classics in 2004) and continuing with The Tenants of Time (1988) and The End of the Hunt (1994). He is also the author of There You Are: Writings on Irish and American Literature and History (2004). Flanagan was a frequent contributor to many publications, including The New York Review of Books, The New York Times, and The Kenyon Review."

  125. One of these days ASU is going to get sick of all this sneering and start gaming the US News rankings like certain other schools did.

    You won’t have ASU to kick around anymore, Aunt Becky!

    • Agree: Redneck farmer
    • Replies: @Coburn
    At ASU, 30 years ago, the only requirement to enroll in the Engineering school was a 2.0 high school average. The school would front load the washout classes – calculus, physics, Boolean Alg, etc -- to quickly discourage the ‘wannabes’. More than 90% would drop out of Eng.

    In my discipline, Elect Eng, each freshman class would enroll 4 to 500 Elect Eng majors. But fewer then 25 EEs would graduate each semester

    Years later I realized how clever this was. With painless admission to engineering, they avoided the sturm und drang of parents and students complaints. No arguments about affirmative action or legacies. (Is there such a thing as a legacy admission to ASU?). No requirement to donate to the building fund. Also, the school reaped big revenue from the massive enrollments in the washout classes. (Often, 500 students in a class section)

    , @AnonAnon
    ASU’s engineering and business schools are ranked something like 38 and 30 by US News, so it’s by no means a joke school. (I think that’s NAU, where [white] B students who don’t want attend a bottom half Cal State go). They have a very generous enrollment policy - accept something like 70%+ - their philosophy is to give all kids a shot - but those two programs are well-ranked. They are also very generous when it comes to automatic merit aid for smart California kids (so is U of Az and NAU) and definitely heavily recruit them. My child got offered enough to bring costs down to just above the price of a Cal State.
  126. @res
    The logistic regression model of Harvard admissions at http://www.ceousa.org/attachments/article/1237/CEO%20Study%20Harvard%20Investigates%20Harvard.pdf
    let's you look at that to some extent. Table 1 summarizes the logistic regression coefficients (log odds ratio). This probably won't format well, but hopefully it is good enough. Remember this is a model so approximate, not gospel truth.

    Table 1. OIR’s Logistic Regression Results Predicting Admissions, Data from 2009 through 2016
    Variable Coefficient | Estimate | P-value
    Athletic rating of 1 6.33 0.00
    Personal Rating 1 or 2 2.41 0.00
    Legacy 2.40 0.00
    African American 2.37 0.00
    Native American 1.73 0.00
    Extracurricular 1 or 2 1.58 0.00
    Academic 1 or 2 1.31 0.00
    Standardized Academic Index 1.29 0.00
    Hispanic 1.27 0.00
    CSS self‐ reported income < $60K 0.98 0.00
    International 0.24 0.00
    Asian -0.37 0.00
    Constant -6.23 0.00
    Unknown/Other -0.03 0.41
    Female 0.00 0.87
     
    One thing I found interesting is that being African American has about the same effect as being a legacy.

    This calculator is very helpful for converting those coefficients into probabilities: http://vassarstats.net/tabs.html#odds1
    To do that sum up the relevant coefficients (or enter the equation in the box) and enter into the "Log Odds" box then click calculate. The p box is the probability.

    For some examples. A baseline candidate (all variables 0) has a log odds of the constant = -6.23 giving a probability of 0.2%. Having an athletic rating of 1 gives -6.23 + 6.33 = 0.1 giving a probability of 52.5% (!). Add other coefficients as you see fit.

    From a comment on this page: https://talk.collegeconfidential.com/harvard-university/2093478-harvard-admission-rating-system.html
    we see: A “1” athletic rating is used to refer to an athlete recruited by a Harvard varsity team.

    If you are an athlete AND black, your odds are starting to look pretty good.

    However, it seems like there is a play there for a smart but personable white kid (Asians rarely get high personal ratings) with strong extracurriculars:

    Personal Rating 1 or 2 +Extracurricular 1 0r 2 +Academic 1 or 2 + Standardized Academic Index gives you 6.59 which is as good as being an athlete.

    • Replies: @res
    I forgot to look closely at Standardized Academic Index (I'll use SAI) before. Here is an excerpt from the paper:


    Standardized Academic Index. OIR also used standardized academic index scores in its logistic regression. The exact algorithm is not known. While similar to the Harvard academic ratings, calculated index scores were based on just the SAT I and high school grades. The standardized academic index had a coefficient of 1.29, roughly the same as Harvard’s academic rating (as one would expect).
     
    And a Crimson article from last year: https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2018/6/30/athlete-admissions/

    By Ivy League Conference rules, recruited athletes are placed on a 240-point Academic Index, which is calculated based on GPA and standardized test scores. While the minimum score required for Ivy League admissions is 176, the average Academic Index for recruited athletes cannot be more than one standard deviation below the index of the previous four freshmen classes.

    At Harvard, the student body index is roughly 220—approximately equivalent to a SAT score of 2200 and near 4.0 GPA, according to a 2014 Crimson report. Students who walk-on to teams are not included in the Athletic Department’s estimate.
     
    This leaves me unsure how to interpret the SAI coefficient. It can't be using that numerical score, though I suppose it is possibly a Z score. Perhaps more likely an unspecified threshold?

    Here is a bit more perspective on athletes from the Crimson article (note the latter combination is not captured by the model above):

    Arcidiacono noted that athletes with an academic rating of 1 or 2 on Harvard’s scale of 1 to 6—with 1 being the highest and 6 the lowest—had a markedly higher admit rate than non-athletes with the same academic scores. For example, Arcidiacono noted that recruited athletes with an academic rating of 4 had an acceptance rate of 70.46 percent, nearly a thousand times greater than the 0.076 percent admit rate for non-athletes with the same academic rating.
     
    This combination is captured (but my calculations indicate those numbers are close at ~80% for athletes but only 7% for non-athletes, not sure why):

    Athletes with the highest or second-highest academic rating on an internal Harvard admissions scale have an acceptance rate of 83 percent—compared to 16 percent for non-athletes—according to a report from the University’s Office of Internal Research.
     
    More on the SAI: https://www.quora.com/How-is-the-Academic-Index-calculated-for-Harvard-has-it-changed-since-the-essay-on-the-SAT-is-a-separate-score

    Returning to your point, that sounds like the classic way to be admitted, but I'm not sure how frequent those 1 and 2 ratings are. Supposedly an academic rating of 1 is given to only ~100 people per year. Here is some info: https://www.insidehighered.com/admissions/views/2018/06/25/harvard-admissions-data-raise-questions-dont-demonstrate-discrimination

    Harvard assigns each applicant a rating in four areas -- academic, extracurricular, athletic and personal -- on a scale that is either 1 to 4 (according to Harvard) or 1 to 6 (according to Students for Fair Admissions), with 1 the top rating. The rating in each area, which includes potential for pluses and minuses, leads to an overall rating that is holistic. According to Card, only 7 percent of applicants have ratings of two or better in three areas.

    An academic rating makes sense. Obviously a student’s academic record is relevant in judging his or her fit as a student for Harvard. I have read that a score of 2+ would signify a perfect or near-perfect high school record, but without evidence of genuine scholarship or academic creativity. Similarly, on the extracurricular side, a student should exhibit significant accomplishment within the school or perhaps regionally in order to receive a 2. Card reports that 42 percent of applicants receive an academic rating of 1 or 2, compared with 25 percent in the other three areas.

     

    I would like to know the percentages for admittees as well as applicants. That would be interesting in itself, but would also help judge how effective your idea is in practice.
  127. Delighted to see Loyola riding high, as ever.

    In the days when my father and his brothers graduated, it was a rare thing to go on from there to USC. Most everybody who went on to college (this was the late ‘Thirties) would simply have walked across the street to Loyola U. The eldest of the three brothers did exactly that, the next was planning the same, but the war intervened and he took an accelerated course at one of the military academies, while my father, who graduated in 1941, did end up at USC, but only after the little distraction of bombing Berlin (until he was shot down). The more academic, or better off, might have contemplated Georgetown or Notre Dame; perhaps surprisingly, the most popular non-Catholic place to go was Harvard. Like Jews, the Catholics knew instinctively where they needed to fetch up to prove they had arrived. One of their uncles, a Harvard Fellow, went on to teach there. He is still remembered for his deep (what his colleagues would have called “fanatical”) Catholicism and original, if obscure, literary theorising.

    Harvard-Westlake doesn’t teach as well as Loyola – the Jesuits, heretics though they may be, still educate boys better than anyone else, at high school level at least. What HW does is cram; and frankly, 12 students out of a student body a bit larger than Loyola’s (with 22) is not all that impressive.

  128. @Old Palo Altan
    It's Harvard-Westlake which is on Coldwater Canyon, not Loyola.

    It’s Harvard-Westlake which is on Coldwater Canyon, not Loyola.

    The composer Leroy Anderson bragged that his entire (civilian) education, from kindergarten to a graduate degree, occurred on a single street, Washington Avenue in Cambridge*.

    Can that be done anywhere in LA?

    Are there still “normal schools” about, grade schools attached to a teachers’ college? I spent a grade at one.

    *Massachusetts. I doubt there’s a “Washington Avenue” in the original Cambridge. But you could consider the A1 to be one, I suppose.

    • Replies: @Old Palo Altan
    Loyola would have been possible if one had grown up in the parish, but not since 1929, when the university moved away (or was it the high school?).
    Bellarmine when it was part of the University of Santa Clara, but that ended even further back in time.

    I like your roadmap. The old A1 is worth taking north some time: one travels through relatively sleepy market towns and some still beautiful countryside. But don't wander onto the the M1 (as your map does): ruthless motorway from then on. Stop at York, and then explore the Dales.
  129. @Reg Cæsar

    What is some potato-eater teaching the Queen’s English fer!?
     
    She was born in Berkeley. In 1958. That's awfully damned early for an American "Caitlin".

    Were her parents from the Isle? How does she pronounce it? It's supposed to be like "Kathleen" in Brooklynese.

    Her father wrote the epic literary bestseller “The Year of the French” about the Irish uprising of 1798.

    “Thomas Flanagan (1923–2002), the grandson of Irish immigrants, grew up in Greenwich, Connecticut, where he ran the school newspaper with his friend Truman Capote. Flanagan attended Amherst College (with a two-year hiatus to serve in the Pacific Fleet) and earned his Ph.D. from Columbia University, where he studied under Lionel Trilling while also writing stories for Ellery Queen’s Mystery Magazine. In 1959, he published an important scholarly work, The Irish Novelists, 1800 to 1850, and the next year he moved to Berkeley, where he was to teach English and Irish literature at the University of California for many years. In 1978 he took up a post at the State University of New York at Stonybrook, from which he retired in 1996. Flanagan and his wife Jean made annual trips to Ireland, where he struck up friendships with many writers, including Benedict Kiely and Seamus Heaney, whom he in turn helped bring to the United States. His intimate knowledge of Ireland’s history and literature also helped to inspire his trilogy of historical novels, starting with The Year of the French (1979, winner of the National Critics’ Circle award for fiction, reissued by NYRB Classics in 2004) and continuing with The Tenants of Time (1988) and The End of the Hunt (1994). He is also the author of There You Are: Writings on Irish and American Literature and History (2004). Flanagan was a frequent contributor to many publications, including The New York Review of Books, The New York Times, and The Kenyon Review.”

    • Replies: @guest
    If your father is a successful novelist you get jobs at upscale universities, then move onto journalism and bitch about the rich kids who went there.
  130. @res
    The logistic regression model of Harvard admissions at http://www.ceousa.org/attachments/article/1237/CEO%20Study%20Harvard%20Investigates%20Harvard.pdf
    let's you look at that to some extent. Table 1 summarizes the logistic regression coefficients (log odds ratio). This probably won't format well, but hopefully it is good enough. Remember this is a model so approximate, not gospel truth.

    Table 1. OIR’s Logistic Regression Results Predicting Admissions, Data from 2009 through 2016
    Variable Coefficient | Estimate | P-value
    Athletic rating of 1 6.33 0.00
    Personal Rating 1 or 2 2.41 0.00
    Legacy 2.40 0.00
    African American 2.37 0.00
    Native American 1.73 0.00
    Extracurricular 1 or 2 1.58 0.00
    Academic 1 or 2 1.31 0.00
    Standardized Academic Index 1.29 0.00
    Hispanic 1.27 0.00
    CSS self‐ reported income < $60K 0.98 0.00
    International 0.24 0.00
    Asian -0.37 0.00
    Constant -6.23 0.00
    Unknown/Other -0.03 0.41
    Female 0.00 0.87
     
    One thing I found interesting is that being African American has about the same effect as being a legacy.

    This calculator is very helpful for converting those coefficients into probabilities: http://vassarstats.net/tabs.html#odds1
    To do that sum up the relevant coefficients (or enter the equation in the box) and enter into the "Log Odds" box then click calculate. The p box is the probability.

    For some examples. A baseline candidate (all variables 0) has a log odds of the constant = -6.23 giving a probability of 0.2%. Having an athletic rating of 1 gives -6.23 + 6.33 = 0.1 giving a probability of 52.5% (!). Add other coefficients as you see fit.

    From a comment on this page: https://talk.collegeconfidential.com/harvard-university/2093478-harvard-admission-rating-system.html
    we see: A “1” athletic rating is used to refer to an athlete recruited by a Harvard varsity team.

    Thanks.

    Has anybody ever published any researched into how much donating legacies tend to do?

    • Replies: @res
    I haven't seen any, some links below from looking around just now.

    This might be of interest (more there): https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2018/10/18/day-three-harvard-admissions-trial/

    Cheever closed the email by noting he would “call it a 2” — an apparent attempt to score the applicant-and-donation package. After Hughes asked Fitzsimmons to explain the number, the dean said the “2” ranking meant the candidate would receive a boost in the admissions process.

    Fitzsimmons described the boost given to a “2” applicant as “reasonably serious,” though not as significant as the preference given to a “1” candidate. The dean previously admitted in pre-trial testimony that greater “financial contribution[s]” can lead to higher ratings for individual applicants.
     
    Some perspective about the total donations: https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2017/2/8/harvard-fundraising-tops-stanford/


    Harvard raised $1.19 billion in fiscal year 2016, marking the University's largest fundraising haul in a single year and surpassing Stanford for the first time since 2014
    ...
    Alumni donations to Harvard were down from fiscal year 2015, dipping from $650 million to $613 million, Kaplan said. But the numbers are still far higher than two years ago, when the University collected less than two-thirds of that number—$393 million—from alumni.
    ...
    Harvard received $134 million from individuals other than parents and alumni in 2016, Kaplan said, nearly double the figure from the previous year. Parent donations also increased sharply, from $43 million to $85 million.

     

    This Quora answer might be of interest: https://qr.ae/TW13NO
  131. @Daniel H
    Yeah, I should have sussed that out. It's been my experience and observation that parents of Catholic school boys/girls just don't act out like that. There is a certain fatalism that goes with being Catholic.

    You are absolutely right.

    And anyway, in the eyes of eternity it all matters not a jot.

  132. “This is also life as a U.S.C. student: working an overnight shift to earn money for books, going hungry when the campus meal plan runs out and seething as friends presume that a $20 glass of wine is affordable”

    Meal plans are a worse financial decision than an occasional $20 glass of wine. College meal plans are NOT cheap. You can eat pasta at home for about 1/7 the cost of a meal in a college dining hall.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    In some schools they are mandatory, at least for freshman. In addition to being expensive, the food usually sucks.
  133. @bjdubbs
    If college admissions is getting so hard, then won't the mid-tier schools like Santa Barbara or USC turn out to be more prestigious than Berkeley? Berkeley is a bunch 1500 SAT dorks, Santa Barbara is cool people who still have 1350 SATs. Where would you rather go?

    Berkeley is a bunch 1500 SAT dorks, Santa Barbara is cool people who still have 1350 SATs. Where would you rather go?

    Cal Poly SLO

  134. @stillCARealist
    This just pisses me off to no end. Why should the HS students of CA have to compete with China and India to get into a UC? Same thing for your country. Their parents have been paying taxes in the state for years and then some ringer flies in at the last moment and gets the spot. I don't care if he or she has better test scores. Go enrich your own filthy country with your test-taking. The UC's should be for California kids, say 90% plus. A few percent from other states and just a handful of foreigners. Grr...

    You’re exactly right. I don’t know the demographic breakdown but I imagine the Boomer Elite view the California Community College system and CSU’s as a courtesy for the hoi polloi.

    California Boomers of all political views (many of which have since fled the state) generously gave the future away to foreigners.

  135. @BigDickNick
    "This is also life as a U.S.C. student: working an overnight shift to earn money for books, going hungry when the campus meal plan runs out and seething as friends presume that a $20 glass of wine is affordable"

    Meal plans are a worse financial decision than an occasional $20 glass of wine. College meal plans are NOT cheap. You can eat pasta at home for about 1/7 the cost of a meal in a college dining hall.

    In some schools they are mandatory, at least for freshman. In addition to being expensive, the food usually sucks.

  136. @216
    There has been a large increase in international students, particularly Chinese. Universities like Internationals because they almost always pay full freight, and tend to live in campus housing all four years.

    It's largely unheard of for American students to complete a degree at a foreign university, though "study abroad" is common, IMO a joke. There is a minor trend of certain wealthy families in the US studying at St. Andrews in the UK, which is four-years rather than the typical three. The institution received a prestige boost because Prince William met his wife there.

    I think some UCs have a "backdoor" where a graduate of a community college is guaranteed admission, when they otherwise couldn't be admitted as a freshman.

    I think some UCs have a “backdoor” where a graduate of a community college is guaranteed admission, when they otherwise couldn’t be admitted as a freshman.

    Both the UC’s and CSU’s offer articulation agreements with the Community Colleges. Not sure if a spot is ‘guaranteed’ per se but it’s a cost-effective path to get to a decent 4-year school as the cost of living at most of the UC’s is where the financial pain is accrued.

    Not sure about the rest of the country but it’s mostly not looked down upon to take the CC to UC path to graduation.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    But at the quality of high schools listed above as main feeders to USC, it's almost unknown for their grads to pursue the Community College backdoor route to UC schools. (Unless they are, say, Armenian or Coptic or some other ethnicity outside the SWPL taste zone.)
  137. @sanjoaquinsam

    I think some UCs have a “backdoor” where a graduate of a community college is guaranteed admission, when they otherwise couldn’t be admitted as a freshman.

     

    Both the UC's and CSU's offer articulation agreements with the Community Colleges. Not sure if a spot is 'guaranteed' per se but it's a cost-effective path to get to a decent 4-year school as the cost of living at most of the UC's is where the financial pain is accrued.

    Not sure about the rest of the country but it's mostly not looked down upon to take the CC to UC path to graduation.

    But at the quality of high schools listed above as main feeders to USC, it’s almost unknown for their grads to pursue the Community College backdoor route to UC schools. (Unless they are, say, Armenian or Coptic or some other ethnicity outside the SWPL taste zone.)

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    They’ll just have to get down off of that high horse then. Probably the best thing that could happen to them.
    , @216
    It's curious how public universities are rather jealous of the "residency requirement" for in-state, which usually isn't tariffed the same at the community college level.

    Does anything like this exist in the EU? I thought there was something called Erasmus where a student can study presumably at (the same cost?) in any university in the EU-27?
  138. Anonymous[375] • Disclaimer says:
    @stillCARealist
    And I suspect that people like this are the reason the total US student loan debt is so high. Most students have loans in a much smaller range... my BIL had about 15K after finishing his degree as an adult... but the fancy degrees accumulate these huge debts. Another relative is getting a Physician's Assistant degree and will have more like 250K debt upon completion. I have yet another relative who is still paying off his law degree debt as he approaches 40.

    But this guy got one of the most practical degrees you can get. He went to dental school to study orthodontics. That’s more practical than the typical STEM degree, let alone the liberal arts. When people talk about student debt being so high and being used for useless “fancy degrees”, they usually mean liberal arts degrees with no immediate practical applications, not dental, medical, etc degrees.

    Universities are supposed to be non-profits that get tax breaks from the government, and in return are supposed to keep costs low and not exploit their bargaining power to charge much if at all above the cost of production to obtain a rent or surplus. They’ve violated the spirit of this through legalistic means. They seek to maximize their “endowments”, not their profit, and thus remain technically non-profit entities.

  139. @Thinker

    The son is now on Harvard’s fencing team. The son earned straight As at St. Albans in DC, had nearly perfect SAT scores, his older brother fenced for Harvard at the time of the sale, and their mother has multiple degrees from Harvard, so he is a legacy.
     
    I don't know how true that is. The dad who bought the house from the Harvard coach is a China national. If the son really is that qualified, he wouldn't need to bribe anyone.

    If the son really is that qualified, he wouldn’t need to bribe anyone.

    Harvard routinely rejects applicants with 1600 SATs and 4.0 GPAs.

    As “Ed” (#32 above) wrote, the father (didn’t want to leave anything to chance.

    • Agree: Triumph104
  140. @Steve Sailer
    And what difference does it make, in terms of what you learn, which college you attend? They all teach the same things anyway.

    And they all teach different things within the college. There isn't that much in common between the education that two members of the USC Class of 2022 will get.

    O/T. This is the exact reason the reports of AOC graduating 4th in her class are bullshit.
    Reporting really is pathetic.

    • Replies: @guest
    Yeahbutt who cares. If they were being responsible they'd greet the mention of her name with laughter. Wake me when that happens.

    In the meantime, we all know it's not her as a person anyone cares about. They're thinking of whatever it is she's supposed to represent. Young female urban communists of brownness, or whatever.
  141. @stillCARealist
    This is such a great thread! Sushi is certainly one of the biggest food scams out there. It's so gross and overpriced it rivals caviar and foie gras.

    Hey waiter, serve me something disgusting, uncooked, and derived from beach-combings. Oh, and charge me whatever you can get away with. Can I get it with a side of offal? Perfect!

    This is such a great thread! Sushi is certainly one of the biggest food scams out there. It’s so gross and overpriced it rivals caviar and foie gras.

    First off, it is mostly Koreans that run sushi joints here, plus some Thais. Some Japanese run the high end “authentic” sushi restaurants where you (the guys) will really pay through nose, more than at a great and satisfying steakhouse. High end like Nobu and the other Nobus in this chain. LA and NYC are full of very expensive sushi places. Koreans and Japanese are laughing all the way to bank and become millionaires trying to keep American women drenched in Sushi.
    Because the ladies are the big sushi aficionados, due to it being perceived as non fattening. What a joke! They drag reluctant husbands and boyfriends to the sushi restaurants. But will they deign to try making it at home? No f’ing way. It is so simple and easy to make, but America’s women are on strike when it comes to this.
    They will #metoo you if you don’t grovel to the high shrines of the sushi gods and comply by whisking them there, and of course paying out.

  142. Getting accepted to USC is not as easy as it used to be. The standards are higher. Affluent parents can afford to send their kids to a university where they go to school with (and perhaps marry) other affluent kids.

  143. Interesting article. Maybe I missed something But the author discussing teaching at a prestigious school, never notes why said kids loss what had been by right according to her their status.

    Something changed, but she never pin points what that change was.

  144. @Jack D
    I believe there are some stats out for legacy admits - if you are just a plain vanilla legacy and not a big donor, it maybe doubles your chances, so it would take it from 4% to 8% - still WAY less than a sure thing. The % you have for ordinary student, even if you have a high GPA/grade average, is way too high. If the overall % at Stanford for "unhooked" candidates nowadays is maybe 2% (which I think is a fair guess), maybe being an unhooked 1600 takes you back to 4% (and below 1500 SAT, essentially zero - all the low SATs that you see in the stats are in reality reserved for AA and other hooked candidates).

    Giving these daunting stats, you can why people were willing to pay significant bribes. If you are someone who has his heart sending his kid to Stanford and he or she has below 1500 SATs and no "hook", they have virtually no chance of getting in so some sort of bribe (legal or illegal) is literally your only realistic path forward.

    If you’re trying to compete on test scores you’re pissing into the wind for two reasons:

    (A) The top end has been normed off the scale.

    (B) Asian families have been doing high stakes testing for centuries.

    As with any sales job, you need to figure out how to add maximum value to your customer then deliver it. For the unscrupulous that’s the admission committee, otherwise you’ll need something that will come to the attention of the decision-makers in the school itself.

  145. @Steve Sailer
    But at the quality of high schools listed above as main feeders to USC, it's almost unknown for their grads to pursue the Community College backdoor route to UC schools. (Unless they are, say, Armenian or Coptic or some other ethnicity outside the SWPL taste zone.)

    They’ll just have to get down off of that high horse then. Probably the best thing that could happen to them.

  146. @Jack D
    If you are an athlete AND black, your odds are starting to look pretty good.

    However, it seems like there is a play there for a smart but personable white kid (Asians rarely get high personal ratings) with strong extracurriculars:

    Personal Rating 1 or 2 +Extracurricular 1 0r 2 +Academic 1 or 2 + Standardized Academic Index gives you 6.59 which is as good as being an athlete.

    I forgot to look closely at Standardized Academic Index (I’ll use SAI) before. Here is an excerpt from the paper:

    Standardized Academic Index. OIR also used standardized academic index scores in its logistic regression. The exact algorithm is not known. While similar to the Harvard academic ratings, calculated index scores were based on just the SAT I and high school grades. The standardized academic index had a coefficient of 1.29, roughly the same as Harvard’s academic rating (as one would expect).

    And a Crimson article from last year: https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2018/6/30/athlete-admissions/

    By Ivy League Conference rules, recruited athletes are placed on a 240-point Academic Index, which is calculated based on GPA and standardized test scores. While the minimum score required for Ivy League admissions is 176, the average Academic Index for recruited athletes cannot be more than one standard deviation below the index of the previous four freshmen classes.

    At Harvard, the student body index is roughly 220—approximately equivalent to a SAT score of 2200 and near 4.0 GPA, according to a 2014 Crimson report. Students who walk-on to teams are not included in the Athletic Department’s estimate.

    This leaves me unsure how to interpret the SAI coefficient. It can’t be using that numerical score, though I suppose it is possibly a Z score. Perhaps more likely an unspecified threshold?

    Here is a bit more perspective on athletes from the Crimson article (note the latter combination is not captured by the model above):

    Arcidiacono noted that athletes with an academic rating of 1 or 2 on Harvard’s scale of 1 to 6—with 1 being the highest and 6 the lowest—had a markedly higher admit rate than non-athletes with the same academic scores. For example, Arcidiacono noted that recruited athletes with an academic rating of 4 had an acceptance rate of 70.46 percent, nearly a thousand times greater than the 0.076 percent admit rate for non-athletes with the same academic rating.

    This combination is captured (but my calculations indicate those numbers are close at ~80% for athletes but only 7% for non-athletes, not sure why):

    Athletes with the highest or second-highest academic rating on an internal Harvard admissions scale have an acceptance rate of 83 percent—compared to 16 percent for non-athletes—according to a report from the University’s Office of Internal Research.

    More on the SAI: https://www.quora.com/How-is-the-Academic-Index-calculated-for-Harvard-has-it-changed-since-the-essay-on-the-SAT-is-a-separate-score

    Returning to your point, that sounds like the classic way to be admitted, but I’m not sure how frequent those 1 and 2 ratings are. Supposedly an academic rating of 1 is given to only ~100 people per year. Here is some info: https://www.insidehighered.com/admissions/views/2018/06/25/harvard-admissions-data-raise-questions-dont-demonstrate-discrimination

    Harvard assigns each applicant a rating in four areas — academic, extracurricular, athletic and personal — on a scale that is either 1 to 4 (according to Harvard) or 1 to 6 (according to Students for Fair Admissions), with 1 the top rating. The rating in each area, which includes potential for pluses and minuses, leads to an overall rating that is holistic. According to Card, only 7 percent of applicants have ratings of two or better in three areas.

    An academic rating makes sense. Obviously a student’s academic record is relevant in judging his or her fit as a student for Harvard. I have read that a score of 2+ would signify a perfect or near-perfect high school record, but without evidence of genuine scholarship or academic creativity. Similarly, on the extracurricular side, a student should exhibit significant accomplishment within the school or perhaps regionally in order to receive a 2. Card reports that 42 percent of applicants receive an academic rating of 1 or 2, compared with 25 percent in the other three areas.

    I would like to know the percentages for admittees as well as applicants. That would be interesting in itself, but would also help judge how effective your idea is in practice.

  147. @Steve Sailer
    Thanks.

    Has anybody ever published any researched into how much donating legacies tend to do?

    I haven’t seen any, some links below from looking around just now.

    This might be of interest (more there): https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2018/10/18/day-three-harvard-admissions-trial/

    Cheever closed the email by noting he would “call it a 2” — an apparent attempt to score the applicant-and-donation package. After Hughes asked Fitzsimmons to explain the number, the dean said the “2” ranking meant the candidate would receive a boost in the admissions process.

    Fitzsimmons described the boost given to a “2” applicant as “reasonably serious,” though not as significant as the preference given to a “1” candidate. The dean previously admitted in pre-trial testimony that greater “financial contribution[s]” can lead to higher ratings for individual applicants.

    Some perspective about the total donations: https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2017/2/8/harvard-fundraising-tops-stanford/

    Harvard raised $1.19 billion in fiscal year 2016, marking the University’s largest fundraising haul in a single year and surpassing Stanford for the first time since 2014

    Alumni donations to Harvard were down from fiscal year 2015, dipping from $650 million to $613 million, Kaplan said. But the numbers are still far higher than two years ago, when the University collected less than two-thirds of that number—$393 million—from alumni.

    Harvard received $134 million from individuals other than parents and alumni in 2016, Kaplan said, nearly double the figure from the previous year. Parent donations also increased sharply, from $43 million to $85 million.

    This Quora answer might be of interest: https://qr.ae/TW13NO

  148. @Jack D
    I believe there are some stats out for legacy admits - if you are just a plain vanilla legacy and not a big donor, it maybe doubles your chances, so it would take it from 4% to 8% - still WAY less than a sure thing. The % you have for ordinary student, even if you have a high GPA/grade average, is way too high. If the overall % at Stanford for "unhooked" candidates nowadays is maybe 2% (which I think is a fair guess), maybe being an unhooked 1600 takes you back to 4% (and below 1500 SAT, essentially zero - all the low SATs that you see in the stats are in reality reserved for AA and other hooked candidates).

    Giving these daunting stats, you can why people were willing to pay significant bribes. If you are someone who has his heart sending his kid to Stanford and he or she has below 1500 SATs and no "hook", they have virtually no chance of getting in so some sort of bribe (legal or illegal) is literally your only realistic path forward.

    if you are just a plain vanilla legacy and not a big donor, it maybe doubles your chances, so it would take it from 4% to 8% – still WAY less than a sure thing.

    Actually the legacy admit rate is more like 34% for Harvard. HUGE hook. https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2018/10/21/dockets-ratings-tips-how-harvard-admissions-selects-student/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.fd34c482912d

  149. Human class dynamics don’t easily lend themselves to systemization. It wasn’t long ago that ambitious American parents thought that systemization (principally via standardized tests) was their foolproof ticket for getting ahead or at least securing their spot.

    With the arrival of Asians en masse that is no longer the case.

  150. @Anonymous
    I think USC occupies a niche for smart, wealthy students who want to go to a brand name school, put a high premium on location and don't have the CV for Harvard, Stanford et al. Other schools of this genus would be NYU, Georgetown, Tufts etc.

    Now why so many ostensibly sophisticated people would pay hundreds of thousands of dollars and commit multiple felonies just to get their children into these schools? Search me. I'm especially interested in the case of the stockbroker who tipped the FBI off to the whole scheme; he had one daughter graduated, one enrolled and one applying to Yale, and he helped frame the Yale soccer coach, all in order to get a lighter sentence in his unrelated securities fraud case. Does that mean he sold his daughters out to save his own ass, as Flanagan suggests in her article? Even for America in 2019 that would be a new low.

    Now THAT would have made a great episode of The Gilmore Girls. In fact I think Paris Gellar’s parents were on the run from a securities fraud case at one point.

  151. 216 says:
    @Steve Sailer
    But at the quality of high schools listed above as main feeders to USC, it's almost unknown for their grads to pursue the Community College backdoor route to UC schools. (Unless they are, say, Armenian or Coptic or some other ethnicity outside the SWPL taste zone.)

    It’s curious how public universities are rather jealous of the “residency requirement” for in-state, which usually isn’t tariffed the same at the community college level.

    Does anything like this exist in the EU? I thought there was something called Erasmus where a student can study presumably at (the same cost?) in any university in the EU-27?

  152. @Reg Cæsar
    I want to walk around Charlottesville and Durham in my Virginia Blue Devils hoodie.


    https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/scorestream-team-profile-pictures/9048/20181010201853_799_mascot300.png



    Someday I'll get a Pekin Chinks jersey and wear it in Hong Kong. I did wear a Chief Wahoo hat one whole summer in an Alaskan village with plenty of Indians.

    In what part of and when did you walk about Durham?

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    I've never been there. Is it walkable? Maybe I assume too much.
  153. Why USC? for parents of Millennials whose kids have (in HS) an interest in acting, photography, writing, directing, producing….all media stuff; USC is at the doorstep of Nirvana…or parental relief that their arty kid may actually, make it in the art world. USC is in LA so parents know that internships and patronage is fait accompli. USC is no intellectual or STEM powerhouse, but entertainment still rules as far as America’s export in $’s – sad, but true.

    So, mediocre kids who could/would never choose bio, chem, CS, or even law, may land in money if they strike the right zones (meet the right people their parents already know; maybe peripherally) their kid won’t up in an embarrassing situation like moving back home after graduation, waitressing or bartending* AOC; major glass ceiling breaker.

    • Replies: @Clyde

    moving back home after graduation, waitressing or bartending* AOC; major glass ceiling breaker.
     
    She would still be bartending if she had not attended a combo audition and boot camp run by the Young Turks. They selected AOC as having potential and got her started out. AOC had the drive-ambition to beat (yet another) Old Joe, to snag her House seat. Conventional intelligence was not a requirement. The BU course catalog will not have an AOC photo at the head of the economics courses.
    The real question is, what kind of tips did get while tending bar?
  154. @Altai
    One of the strange things about political debate in western countries is how much, despite the third wave seeking to homogenise policy, difference there is.

    Yet I see Americans, particularly of the libertarian or begrudging sort, claiming this or that can't be done because it'd cost too much money without asking if it's done in other countries. Americans have no clue how little they pay in taxes compared to countries with the highest living standards and happiness.

    The countries with the least diversity, you mean.

  155. @Daniel H
    Why is USC so popular now? This should be as good a reason as any.

    http://totalfratmove.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/d48868f140a312fd061129869af6187c.png

    Meh, your local college will have much better. The one on the right looks like Jay Leno.

  156. @JimB

    I don’t believe I’ve ever ordered a $20 glass of wine for myself in my lifetime.
     
    I don't think I've ever paid as much as $20 for a 1.5 liter bottle of wine. Wine should be cheap and mixed two parts water.

    De gustibus non disputandum est.

    • Replies: @JimB
    “De gustibus non disputandum est.”

    Say that to a transgender Google engineer, and you will get yourself deplatformed as quick as asparagus.
  157. Do some of those golf holes pictured have two greens?

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    The four greens on the right hand side of the picture across Coldwater Canyon are probably part of the short Ladies Course.
    , @Clyde

    Do some of those golf holes pictured have two greens?
     
    Dual putting greens on many Japanese golf courses. With two different types grasses.
    – "one for the summer months and another for the winter."
  158. @Dtbb
    Do some of those golf holes pictured have two greens?

    The four greens on the right hand side of the picture across Coldwater Canyon are probably part of the short Ladies Course.

  159. @Dtbb
    Do some of those golf holes pictured have two greens?

    Do some of those golf holes pictured have two greens?

    Dual putting greens on many Japanese golf courses. With two different types grasses.
    – “one for the summer months and another for the winter.”

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Right. Japan traditionally had two side by side greens. I believe they are shifting over toward one green systems, which use less land.

    Two green holes in the U.S. are typically rare extravagances where the designer couldn't decide between two green sites, or each green was too small for the amount of play, or the hole was redesigned and they kept the old green for fun.

    St. Andrews typically has one giant green for two holes, although the most famous hole, the 17th, has its own green.

  160. @Lagertha
    Why USC? for parents of Millennials whose kids have (in HS) an interest in acting, photography, writing, directing, producing....all media stuff; USC is at the doorstep of Nirvana...or parental relief that their arty kid may actually, make it in the art world. USC is in LA so parents know that internships and patronage is fait accompli. USC is no intellectual or STEM powerhouse, but entertainment still rules as far as America's export in $'s - sad, but true.

    So, mediocre kids who could/would never choose bio, chem, CS, or even law, may land in money if they strike the right zones (meet the right people their parents already know; maybe peripherally) their kid won't up in an embarrassing situation like moving back home after graduation, waitressing or bartending* AOC; major glass ceiling breaker.

    moving back home after graduation, waitressing or bartending* AOC; major glass ceiling breaker.

    She would still be bartending if she had not attended a combo audition and boot camp run by the Young Turks. They selected AOC as having potential and got her started out. AOC had the drive-ambition to beat (yet another) Old Joe, to snag her House seat. Conventional intelligence was not a requirement. The BU course catalog will not have an AOC photo at the head of the economics courses.
    The real question is, what kind of tips did get while tending bar?

  161. @Clyde

    Do some of those golf holes pictured have two greens?
     
    Dual putting greens on many Japanese golf courses. With two different types grasses.
    – "one for the summer months and another for the winter."

    Right. Japan traditionally had two side by side greens. I believe they are shifting over toward one green systems, which use less land.

    Two green holes in the U.S. are typically rare extravagances where the designer couldn’t decide between two green sites, or each green was too small for the amount of play, or the hole was redesigned and they kept the old green for fun.

    St. Andrews typically has one giant green for two holes, although the most famous hole, the 17th, has its own green.

    • Replies: @Dtbb
    Holes one, nine, seventeen and eighteen have single greens at St. Andrews. The rest are double greens. I have a real cool linen map my older brother gave me that he bought there when he played it in the mid 70's on the high school senior trip. My four siblings all got to go to Europe after graduation. Number four son was too busy working full time to bother with it. I am still foolish.
  162. @Steve Sailer
    Right. Japan traditionally had two side by side greens. I believe they are shifting over toward one green systems, which use less land.

    Two green holes in the U.S. are typically rare extravagances where the designer couldn't decide between two green sites, or each green was too small for the amount of play, or the hole was redesigned and they kept the old green for fun.

    St. Andrews typically has one giant green for two holes, although the most famous hole, the 17th, has its own green.

    Holes one, nine, seventeen and eighteen have single greens at St. Andrews. The rest are double greens. I have a real cool linen map my older brother gave me that he bought there when he played it in the mid 70’s on the high school senior trip. My four siblings all got to go to Europe after graduation. Number four son was too busy working full time to bother with it. I am still foolish.

  163. @Steve Sailer
    Her father wrote the epic literary bestseller "The Year of the French" about the Irish uprising of 1798.

    "Thomas Flanagan (1923–2002), the grandson of Irish immigrants, grew up in Greenwich, Connecticut, where he ran the school newspaper with his friend Truman Capote. Flanagan attended Amherst College (with a two-year hiatus to serve in the Pacific Fleet) and earned his Ph.D. from Columbia University, where he studied under Lionel Trilling while also writing stories for Ellery Queen’s Mystery Magazine. In 1959, he published an important scholarly work, The Irish Novelists, 1800 to 1850, and the next year he moved to Berkeley, where he was to teach English and Irish literature at the University of California for many years. In 1978 he took up a post at the State University of New York at Stonybrook, from which he retired in 1996. Flanagan and his wife Jean made annual trips to Ireland, where he struck up friendships with many writers, including Benedict Kiely and Seamus Heaney, whom he in turn helped bring to the United States. His intimate knowledge of Ireland’s history and literature also helped to inspire his trilogy of historical novels, starting with The Year of the French (1979, winner of the National Critics’ Circle award for fiction, reissued by NYRB Classics in 2004) and continuing with The Tenants of Time (1988) and The End of the Hunt (1994). He is also the author of There You Are: Writings on Irish and American Literature and History (2004). Flanagan was a frequent contributor to many publications, including The New York Review of Books, The New York Times, and The Kenyon Review."

    If your father is a successful novelist you get jobs at upscale universities, then move onto journalism and bitch about the rich kids who went there.

  164. @dr kill
    O/T. This is the exact reason the reports of AOC graduating 4th in her class are bullshit.
    Reporting really is pathetic.

    Yeahbutt who cares. If they were being responsible they’d greet the mention of her name with laughter. Wake me when that happens.

    In the meantime, we all know it’s not her as a person anyone cares about. They’re thinking of whatever it is she’s supposed to represent. Young female urban communists of brownness, or whatever.

  165. @Altai
    One of the strange things about political debate in western countries is how much, despite the third wave seeking to homogenise policy, difference there is.

    Yet I see Americans, particularly of the libertarian or begrudging sort, claiming this or that can't be done because it'd cost too much money without asking if it's done in other countries. Americans have no clue how little they pay in taxes compared to countries with the highest living standards and happiness.

    We have guns.

  166. @Reg Cæsar

    It’s Harvard-Westlake which is on Coldwater Canyon, not Loyola.
     
    The composer Leroy Anderson bragged that his entire (civilian) education, from kindergarten to a graduate degree, occurred on a single street, Washington Avenue in Cambridge*.

    Can that be done anywhere in LA?

    Are there still "normal schools" about, grade schools attached to a teachers' college? I spent a grade at one.


    *Massachusetts. I doubt there's a "Washington Avenue" in the original Cambridge. But you could consider the A1 to be one, I suppose.

    Loyola would have been possible if one had grown up in the parish, but not since 1929, when the university moved away (or was it the high school?).
    Bellarmine when it was part of the University of Santa Clara, but that ended even further back in time.

    I like your roadmap. The old A1 is worth taking north some time: one travels through relatively sleepy market towns and some still beautiful countryside. But don’t wander onto the the M1 (as your map does): ruthless motorway from then on. Stop at York, and then explore the Dales.

  167. @simple_pseudonymic_handle

    But the north slope of the hills has a lot of trees because it’s as blasted by midday sun as the south slope of the hills.
     
    Your sentence is missing a not twixt it's and as.

    I too was surprised at the news that USC was a prestige university and loaded up the US News & World Report ratings page and saw them up there in the top 20 and went wow so if I was associated with the school I might consider this in the all-publicity-is-good-publicity department.

    I can never keep it straight which is the Los Angeles golf club that is all jews and which one is no jews. I think one of them is Hillcrest.

    I can never keep it straight which is the Los Angeles golf club that is all jews and which one is no jews.

    Go park across the street from either one, and watch the people coming and going. You’ll figure it out soon enough.

  168. @dvorak

    Yeah but Ms Flanagan still can’t resist putting the boot into white-people-who-we-all-know-are-crashing-down-in-the-world.

    These rich strivers who are concerned for their kids are more deplorables don’t you know?
     
    Her shout out to Tom Wolfe and use of the triggering term "limousine liberal" - lead one to believe the section you cite is at least somewhat ironic or arch.

    Her shout out to Tom Wolfe and use of the triggering term “limousine liberal” – lead one to believe the section you cite is at least somewhat ironic or arch.

    Hmm. I can just about see that but I haven’t got a very subtle mind. I would like a little more signaling of ironic intent in this febrile political climate.

  169. @Nathan
    Caitlin Flanagan's article is actually a nasty piece of gloating, and confirms a lot of what I've felt about high school guidance counselors and teachers. She doesn't have the self-awareness to realize that she was part of the problem, and even if she didn't participate in anything unethical, she was part of a system that reinforced the "privilege" she pretends to despise and the "changes" that she, in a very small way, helped bring about. Notice once again that it's not the privilege or the elitism that's the problem. She admits that legacies getting in with big donations are an overall benefit to the school. It's that the wrong people are arrogating privileges to themselves that the Caitlin Flanagans of the world feel that they don't deserve. It's the strivers, the social climbers, that are villains in Ms. Flanagan's own private Jane Austin novel. They don't deserve what they used to have. They never deserved it, and she, with her good taste and just-right family background, put herself into a position to make sure they knew it. Notice also how she slips into the passive voice when talking about the "changed" college landscape, and uses "he" when talking about an unattractive college prospect? Those are deliberate grammatical choices. She really hates these people.

    But what kind of person puts herself in a position of authority over the CHILDREN of people she hates? What kind of person becomes a high school guidance counselor to people she considers enemies? They know they have no real impact on a kid's prospects in life; they can't change the circumstances of anyone's birth, but they like being in a position to let them down as they fall into life's circumstances. That's ugly. That's a job for a loser.

    I picked up on this too. But, to be fair, she would say the “hate” was mutual.

    But what kind of person puts herself in a position of authority over the CHILDREN of people she hates?

    -A person with a car payment to make.

  170. @Nathan
    Caitlin Flanagan's article is actually a nasty piece of gloating, and confirms a lot of what I've felt about high school guidance counselors and teachers. She doesn't have the self-awareness to realize that she was part of the problem, and even if she didn't participate in anything unethical, she was part of a system that reinforced the "privilege" she pretends to despise and the "changes" that she, in a very small way, helped bring about. Notice once again that it's not the privilege or the elitism that's the problem. She admits that legacies getting in with big donations are an overall benefit to the school. It's that the wrong people are arrogating privileges to themselves that the Caitlin Flanagans of the world feel that they don't deserve. It's the strivers, the social climbers, that are villains in Ms. Flanagan's own private Jane Austin novel. They don't deserve what they used to have. They never deserved it, and she, with her good taste and just-right family background, put herself into a position to make sure they knew it. Notice also how she slips into the passive voice when talking about the "changed" college landscape, and uses "he" when talking about an unattractive college prospect? Those are deliberate grammatical choices. She really hates these people.

    But what kind of person puts herself in a position of authority over the CHILDREN of people she hates? What kind of person becomes a high school guidance counselor to people she considers enemies? They know they have no real impact on a kid's prospects in life; they can't change the circumstances of anyone's birth, but they like being in a position to let them down as they fall into life's circumstances. That's ugly. That's a job for a loser.

    If it makes you feel any better the depth of hatred for Caitlin Flanagan among leftists is 10 on a scale of 10. Read any thread on metafilter discussing any Caitlin Flanagan magazine article.

    She trolls both ways. If you could still make big dough writing for the Enquirer she would be rolling in it. She really should have been a Hollywood gossip columnist a couple generations ago. When the New York Times downsizes Dowd if they hire another white broad for twice-a-week it’s going to be Flanagan and then she will have arrived at the top of the pyramid.

  171. @Thinker

    Steve, I think you mean USC is 10% Jewish and 26% white. What’s the latest on the Harvard lawsuit?
     
    That seems low. After all it's right next to Jew heaven Hollywood. Many Jews are probably secular and don't join the Hillel and not counted.

    Many Jews are probably secular and don’t join the Hillel and not counted.

    This is a very good point which is too often overlooked. The oft-cited 2% figure is based on self-reported religious observance, so greatly understates the number of people in the US who have Jewish ancestry.

    My family is an example. Our ancestry is Ashkenazi, but most of us are secular. Of those who are religious, more practice Christianity than Judaism.

    It would save a lot of confusion if there were separate words for Jewish-by-ancestry and Jewish-by-religious-belief.

  172. @bjdubbs
    If college admissions is getting so hard, then won't the mid-tier schools like Santa Barbara or USC turn out to be more prestigious than Berkeley? Berkeley is a bunch 1500 SAT dorks, Santa Barbara is cool people who still have 1350 SATs. Where would you rather go?

    You do realize things don’t happen in a vacuum? 85% of UCSB gets higher than a 1200; 50% of accepted freshmen get over 700 in math (25% get higher than 770), 48% get that higher in English. 50% taking the ACT. They only accept 1 in 3, but only half accept, which is basically their student body. UCSB today is as selective as Berkeley was less than 10 years ago.

  173. Something that hasn’t been pointed out sufficiently these days: despite increased selectivity and higher test scores, the average college student is a lot worse than he or she was 30 years ago.

    College is teaching less, of course, but it’s also pretty obvious that they aren’t accepting or graduating smarter people. This holds true even at the “brain” schools like Cal Tech.

    • Agree: Desiderius
    • Replies: @Grumpy
    This rings true.

    It has never been harder to get into good colleges, and yet today's college students can handle only a fraction of the work routinely assigned to students just 20 years ago.

    How can this be?
  174. @Nathan
    Caitlin Flanagan's article is actually a nasty piece of gloating, and confirms a lot of what I've felt about high school guidance counselors and teachers. She doesn't have the self-awareness to realize that she was part of the problem, and even if she didn't participate in anything unethical, she was part of a system that reinforced the "privilege" she pretends to despise and the "changes" that she, in a very small way, helped bring about. Notice once again that it's not the privilege or the elitism that's the problem. She admits that legacies getting in with big donations are an overall benefit to the school. It's that the wrong people are arrogating privileges to themselves that the Caitlin Flanagans of the world feel that they don't deserve. It's the strivers, the social climbers, that are villains in Ms. Flanagan's own private Jane Austin novel. They don't deserve what they used to have. They never deserved it, and she, with her good taste and just-right family background, put herself into a position to make sure they knew it. Notice also how she slips into the passive voice when talking about the "changed" college landscape, and uses "he" when talking about an unattractive college prospect? Those are deliberate grammatical choices. She really hates these people.

    But what kind of person puts herself in a position of authority over the CHILDREN of people she hates? What kind of person becomes a high school guidance counselor to people she considers enemies? They know they have no real impact on a kid's prospects in life; they can't change the circumstances of anyone's birth, but they like being in a position to let them down as they fall into life's circumstances. That's ugly. That's a job for a loser.

    I don’t like Flanagan, and I agree that’s the tone that comes from this particular articloe. But I wouldn’t ascribe any one view to her. She adopts whatever opinion allows her to spit on someone.

  175. @education realist
    Something that hasn't been pointed out sufficiently these days: despite increased selectivity and higher test scores, the average college student is a lot worse than he or she was 30 years ago.

    College is teaching less, of course, but it's also pretty obvious that they aren't accepting or graduating smarter people. This holds true even at the "brain" schools like Cal Tech.

    This rings true.

    It has never been harder to get into good colleges, and yet today’s college students can handle only a fraction of the work routinely assigned to students just 20 years ago.

    How can this be?

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    They’re not good colleges.
  176. @SimpleSong
    Most STEM fields are fairly standardized in terms of the sequence of courses, material covered, and even the textbooks used. At very high prestige schools they may use a more difficult or obscure textbook, or one that was written by the teaching prof (no conflict of interest there!), or they'll jump straight to the text that is usually considered the definitive graduate-level treatment. I've generally found that the 'standard' texts used by the state Us are usually the best from a pedagogical perspective: they became the standard for a reason.

    One thing that varies by school is how far you make it into the text. For example a course at one school may cover half of the standard text while another goes from cover to cover. But, you have the book and can always finish it up on your own. To be frank, usually the combination of 1.) the textbook author 2.) random internet sources, and 3.) well designed problem sets do a better job than your lecturer of imparting understanding. So the university itself is kinda superfluous, at least at the undergrad level.

    Of course none of this really matters because the only reason you go to a university is 1.) signaling and 2.) networking. If it were about knowledge you could just download a reading list and some problem sets and be done with it.

    As an engineering student I was always relieved when we used one of the popular test books. At least that assured the material was presented in an accessible manner. I hated classes with the author of a text book. Invariably, the book would be poorly written and the material would be more difficult to understand.

    The worst was the professor who would ‘self publish’ a book at the local Kinkos. In other words, the book was so bad, no publisher would touch it. The class text would be collection of cryptic notes and idiosyncratic derivations of equations.

  177. @Nathan
    One of these days ASU is going to get sick of all this sneering and start gaming the US News rankings like certain other schools did.

    You won't have ASU to kick around anymore, Aunt Becky!

    At ASU, 30 years ago, the only requirement to enroll in the Engineering school was a 2.0 high school average. The school would front load the washout classes – calculus, physics, Boolean Alg, etc — to quickly discourage the ‘wannabes’. More than 90% would drop out of Eng.

    In my discipline, Elect Eng, each freshman class would enroll 4 to 500 Elect Eng majors. But fewer then 25 EEs would graduate each semester

    Years later I realized how clever this was. With painless admission to engineering, they avoided the sturm und drang of parents and students complaints. No arguments about affirmative action or legacies. (Is there such a thing as a legacy admission to ASU?). No requirement to donate to the building fund. Also, the school reaped big revenue from the massive enrollments in the washout classes. (Often, 500 students in a class section)

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    30 years is a long time.
  178. @Jim Bob Lassiter
    In what part of and when did you walk about Durham?

    I’ve never been there. Is it walkable? Maybe I assume too much.

    • Replies: @Jim Bob Lassiter
    Topographically speaking, yes.
  179. @Nathan
    One of these days ASU is going to get sick of all this sneering and start gaming the US News rankings like certain other schools did.

    You won't have ASU to kick around anymore, Aunt Becky!

    ASU’s engineering and business schools are ranked something like 38 and 30 by US News, so it’s by no means a joke school. (I think that’s NAU, where [white] B students who don’t want attend a bottom half Cal State go). They have a very generous enrollment policy – accept something like 70%+ – their philosophy is to give all kids a shot – but those two programs are well-ranked. They are also very generous when it comes to automatic merit aid for smart California kids (so is U of Az and NAU) and definitely heavily recruit them. My child got offered enough to bring costs down to just above the price of a Cal State.

  180. @Grumpy
    This rings true.

    It has never been harder to get into good colleges, and yet today's college students can handle only a fraction of the work routinely assigned to students just 20 years ago.

    How can this be?

    They’re not good colleges.

  181. @Coburn
    At ASU, 30 years ago, the only requirement to enroll in the Engineering school was a 2.0 high school average. The school would front load the washout classes – calculus, physics, Boolean Alg, etc -- to quickly discourage the ‘wannabes’. More than 90% would drop out of Eng.

    In my discipline, Elect Eng, each freshman class would enroll 4 to 500 Elect Eng majors. But fewer then 25 EEs would graduate each semester

    Years later I realized how clever this was. With painless admission to engineering, they avoided the sturm und drang of parents and students complaints. No arguments about affirmative action or legacies. (Is there such a thing as a legacy admission to ASU?). No requirement to donate to the building fund. Also, the school reaped big revenue from the massive enrollments in the washout classes. (Often, 500 students in a class section)

    30 years is a long time.

  182. @JimB
    When I was in college I mistakenly thought Stanford was a joke. Do I have to change my opinion of USC, now?

    It is ranked as one of the 20 to 25 best colleges in the US.

    “We’re number twenty-two — We try harder” doesn’t sound like it has much cachet.

  183. @Redneck farmer
    2019 AD, not 2019 BC.

    2019 AD, not 2019 BC.

    Suit yourself.

  184. @Clyde
    Never ever vino at 20$ per glass. But prolly the same for Warren Buffet, with a few exceptions for social occasions when he had no choice. As far as wine at home. It is red and from Aldi @ $3.00 per bottle. Cabernet Sauvingon.....hey it's full of reveratrol.

    Cabernet Sauvingon…..hey it’s full of reveratrol.

    So is Welch’s grape juice, and you can drive while drinking it.

  185. @Old Palo Altan
    I do not live in France, but my neighbours have a house there, and we have an agreement that they regularly bring back six or seven five-litre boxes, for which I pay them. It is usually £40.00 or so for the lot. I am drinking from the last of those boxes as I write, but, as they are in France until after Easter, I can turn to my collection of bottled wine without a qualm, knowing that I will be replenished in plenty of time. All of it is of course French, and all of it, even more "of course", is red.

    Expensive wine is for special occasions: the most expensive I ever drank was a bottle of Richebourg 1942 from the Domaine de la Romanée Conti. Even twenty years ago, when I enjoyed it (rather, when I experienced its glory), it was some £1200 a bottle. Now it is more or less unobtainable. The occasion was my host's fortieth wedding anniversary; their were four of us.
    But my point must be that it was worth it: the most magical taste, the headiest of noses.

    But for every day? If you can find them, and pay French prices for them, then the French boxed wines are the only way to go.

    Expensive wine is for special occasions: the most expensive I ever drank was a bottle of Richebourg 1942 from the Domaine de la Romanée Conti.

    Did you wash down your celebratory larks tongue in aspic with that expensive wine? Just as I don’t believe in the superiority of Stradivarius violins over expertly crafted mass marketed ones, I don’t believe in the merits of some types of musty grape juice over others. But I guess that’s why I live in a split level in a former cow town and not in Palo Alto.

  186. @MBlanc46
    De gustibus non disputandum est.

    “De gustibus non disputandum est.”

    Say that to a transgender Google engineer, and you will get yourself deplatformed as quick as asparagus.

  187. @Reg Cæsar
    I've never been there. Is it walkable? Maybe I assume too much.

    Topographically speaking, yes.

  188. because (answering your initial post) white parents are getting worried.

Comments are closed.

Subscribe to All Steve Sailer Comments via RSS
PastClassics
What Was John McCain's True Wartime Record in Vietnam?
Are elite university admissions based on meritocracy and diversity as claimed?