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From the Washington Post:

Nine charts that show how white women are drinking themselves to death

By Dan Keating December 23

Drinking is killing twice as many middle-aged white women as it did 18 years ago.

 
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  1. Is this the same thing as the so-called “White Death”? Why aren’t trends with men noted for comparison?

    • Replies: @Jokah Macpherson
    Yeah, that's the obvious question. Is this a woman-only effect or are there similar trends for men?
    , @Craig Nelsen
    A couple of weeks ago, I pulled CDC stats for mortality rates by manner of death, race, gender, year, and age from 1999 - 2015, then assigned the manners of death to broad categories. (It's pretty amazing how many ways there are to die, and even more amazing we keep track of them. Did you know that people can--and do--die by pretending to die?)

    One of my categories I called "self-destructive". The category included suicides, and all drug and alcohol related deaths. Stick it in a chart and it's clear: we've got a problem, white man.

    Until recently, Native American males between 15-54 years old generally ran at twice the rate or more of everyone else in self-inflicted deaths. High rates of self-inflicted death among Native Americans isn't surprising. Natives are, in fact, a defeated people, and reservations are especially bleak places. Some cursory research reinforces the idea that a defeat in war leads to high rates of suicide among the defeated people. Both Germany and Japan experienced high civilian suicide rates after WWII, for example (at least, anecdotally), and nothing says defeated like suicide.

    Well below Natives, whites and blacks had comparable rates and Asians somewhat lower. Then in about 2008 (insert portentous music) whites and blacks began diverging. Today, black rates have approached Asian rates in the US, while whites are neck and neck with Natives--and in 2009, 2010, 2011, and 2014 actually exceeded the Native rate!

    Here's a link to my chart:

    http://robinsonjeffersboxingclub.com/img/grfx/self-death.jpg
  2. White Death, distaff version?

  3. The connections with college education and binge drinking suggest that women might be continuing their university-era behaviors into middle age. Women in middle age 1999-2015 were presumably attending university in the 1980s and 90s. When did binge drinking become a thing on campus?

    • Replies: @unpc downunder
    The article says that college educated women drink more frequently, but non-college women are more likely to binge drink. Hence, it's likely that most of the women who are drinking themselves to death are working class women.
    , @Dave Pinsen
    Binge drinking on campus probably ticked up when the drinking age was raised to 21 in most states (a terrible idea).
  4. Maybe it’s the “Sex and the City” effect. It was a very influential show that portrayed middle aged women with the drinking habits of the gay men who wrote it. It debuted in 1999. Life imitating art?

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    "Maybe it’s the “Sex and the City” effect."

    I hated that show. What a bad influence on women. The over-emphasis on clothes (especially shoes) and shopping in general was degenerate.
    , @CrunchybutRealistCon
    Concur. Know many women who drink multiple glasses of wine every day of the week, and wine + cocktails on the wkend. S & the C really glamourized the urban cocktail culture as de rigeur for the modern femme.

    Part of me is wondering if heavy booze consumption is the women's less lethal version of the heroine & meth crisis which is more a men's problem. At least in rural & mountain areas?
  5. I wonder if the surge in popularity of wine has something to do with this and the belief that wine is “good for you” or at least not as bad for you. Next time you’re stuck in a home goods type store with your wife take a look at how many pictures and other home decor have something to do with wine.

    I’m in my late 30′s and it’s rare to find a woman who doesn’t drink and there are lots of woman who get drunk on a regular basis and they are proud of it. There’s no shame attached to getting drunk anymore and it’s actually accepted and cool. Go peruse an internet dating site and note the number of women who say they drink several times a week, educated women especially.

    • Replies: @Stealth
    Good Lord, how can people get drunk so often? I'm in my late thirties, too, and up until about two years ago, I was a daily drinker, but the last time I got properly shit-faced was back in my twenties. I ended up spending the following day lying on a friend's bathroom floor because my nausea was so severe and persistent. It was the last time I said "never again."

    I guess this story also illustrates the loneliness of twenty-something life in America; despite the fact that I spent an entire Sunday vomiting at his house, the friend was actually just glad to have someone to talk to.

    , @RadicalCenter
    "Drinking" every single day isn't unhealthy, at all, if it's a small quantity of red wine (not hard liquor and not a large quantity of any alcohol). Certainly drinking a glass of wine every night is fine, so several nights per week raises no red flags at all.

    Presumably these women are drinking way more than one glass per night or per episode.

    I'd rather date, and marry, a woman who drinks a glass of wine regularly than a woman who doesn't drink at all. But a woman who gets drunk more than very occasionally is unattractive in several respects, including her eventual appearance and her long-term health prospects.

    My wife is perfect in this regard as many others: zero alcohol (and for that matter zero caffeine) when pregnant or trying to get pregnant, only a small glass of wine rarely while in the breastfeeding months (years), and just slightly more often otherwise.

    Women who never have children are likelier to fall into all sorts of self medication to cover the painful and unfixable emotional / psychological gap that results.
    Unfixable
    , @in the middle
    Women are drinking to death because all they see is feminized males around. What has become of males in our society. I saw a female with a sign saying 'NO, you make me a sandwich!" with an angry and sort of fatty face. Now, think about it. Women in general dislike a guy just because in the media all you see is deranged guys, lusting after any female in sight, and behaving at the same time effeminate at the same time. No boundaries, no respect, just sex, sex, sex, in both. Women as shown as lustful and willing right away to go to bed with any body for that one night stand. SO, in general the media has created a horrible monster where woman became what they are portrayed on television and the movies. Slots, whores, etc. So the same men who made them those things, are refusing to commit to any of those women. Guys are hypocritically looking for a 'decent girl', while in their minds think to know that you cannot find them.
    My best friend went to the Philippines to find according to him a good wife. He found one, way younger than him and lives there ever since, denouncing his cheating exes as whores and worst in his native Texas. So american women, this is for you. Stop mimicking the horrible life of so called celebrities, so you don't become as they are, a bunch of depraved people who are miserable as can be, and just like you, also end their own lives. Be yourselves, imitate no one, and respect your self, and eventually a good guy will come your way, when he realizes that you are 'different' and not part of the lonely miserable pack of drunks, and suicidal.

    respectfully,

    in the middle.
  6. The article tries to blame it on Don Draper, but after seven years in institutions of higher learning I’ll go ahead and blame it on the unhealthy social climate in said institutions. I drink too much myself (18-22 drinks a week) and I definitely picked it up in college and law school. Nothing to do with advertising. Lots do with lowering inhibitions.

  7. Middle aged divorcees are lonely and miserable as henpecking, unfeminine harpies. No no man wants them; they never had children (or enough children); never were full-time married moms; they deliberately squelched most of their natural femininity and coquettishness; they slept around, making it harder to bond with each successive partner; and they focused on meaningless, masculine, empty careers instead of home and family. They rejected their religions and their biological instincts and gave into secular existentialism and epicurianism. And, despite lesbians best efforts, most aren’t drawn to the abusive Sappho side.

    So they drink themselves silly to forget.

    These women would be so fulfilled as happy grandmas, cooking roasts on Sundays for their hubbies while the latter go off to work for them 5 days a week, babysitting the grandkids, and being ladies. It actually hurts me to see them at this point, because it seems a point of no return. If they had youth they could perhaps reform their ways and find a (broken) man willing to take them in and make a go of it as a family. But as middle-aged women and beyond, they offer nothing to men to want them.

    • Replies: @Thea
    Women with high school educations really do not think in terms of careers but everything else is right.

    These women have few illusions about moving up the ladder. That is for the college women.
    , @LFM
    I don't exactly disagree with this comment, but people with short memories, or perhaps people who were not around in the late 1970s* never seem to grasp that young men welcomed feminism at that time and even pretended to like it. It meant that they could date/sleep around with an available pool of women without having to worry about marrying them. They liked to ask if you considered yourself "independent" or a "feminist" and if the answer was no (it seldom was because who wants to say that she's not independent?), they disappeared. The choice that the sexual revolution + feminism imposed on women was either to enter unstable sexual relationships with uncommitted young men, or don't "date" at all.


    *The feminism of the early 1970s did not emphasize careers. It was more Marxist in its goals - destroy capitalism, fight the class structure - which was why it called itself Women's Liberation and rejected the term feminism, until the media turned "Women's Lib" into a joke.
  8. Everything about a woman’s psychology and body has been shaped by evolution to be directed towards the creation and raising of children. Modern civilization has taken them away from that, and they’ve been brainwashed by gay men, lesbians, and the most masculine 1% of females to believe that they want to live like heterosexual men. The results have been disastrous.

    • Agree: whorefinder
    • LOL: Clyde
    • Replies: @Desiderius

    Modern civilization has taken them away from that, and they’ve been brainwashed by gay men, lesbians, and the most masculine 1% of females to believe that they want to live like heterosexual men.
     
    Don't forget fathers with smaller families who didn't get the son they wanted.
    , @Anonym
    Even if a women likes the sauce, if they are having children responsibly they can't imbibe much. 9 months of pregnancy and a year of breastfeeding means basically 2 years where they can't drink much. If they are having a number of children, it's nearly a decade of near-teetotaling. If they aren't, well, they can drink.
    , @Jus' Sayin'...
    I agree wholeheartedly. This is just another long term effect of "women's lib" or whatever it's now called. Starting over forty years ago I noticed an odd pattern among college women in particular and more generally among young, single women without a serious romantic attachment. These women would go out in groups with the intention that as many as possible would have a sordid one-night stand with whatever male they happened to hook up with. This behavior was so contrary to most of these women's individual instincts that they had to get disgustingly drunk to follow through with the plan. I suspect that for many this established a pattern of binge drinking and alcohol dependence from which they've been unable to escape. For others, the self-loathing induced by this behavior has probably led them to use alcohol as an anodyne for their misery. It's sad and it should never have been allowed to happen.
    , @unpc downunder
    There is one masculine thing modern women should be doing more of - weight bearing exercise. Most modern women do very little scrubbing, lifting or carrying so they need to do some weight-bearing exercise to help them burn fat. However, most of them are still under the illusion that they will bulk up if they start lifting weights.
    , @Old fogey
    Absolutely correct on all fronts. It is fascinating that everything predicted by the Catholic Church that would happen to women and families once contraception and abortion became the norm has come true. And once you add "Feminism" into the mix - God save us all.

    I can say all this because I'm a woman, you'll say. But I counter that you can say it too even if you are a man, because it is the truth.
    , @chikcahhika
    Mostly women don't have kids because its too expensive, jobs are not longterm/stable /secure, partner's don't stay like they used too and we still earn less while being left to juggle children with work.

    Dont again blame us, or call us brainwashed!! We carry the load.
    For a system so tilted towards not having children.
    If you want women to have more children give them equal pay with free and reliable child care up to children being old enough to look after them selves. so that women can progress in their career so they can be financially secure (which is really what this whole issue comes down to - security and independence)

    And yes you notice generally women hate the idea of handouts to the point we would rather sacrifice having children altogether
    , @Daniel Chieh
    I don't know if evolution has much to do with alcohol consumption. I think that's just a function of bodyweight.
  9. It would be interesting to break the group down by marital status. My hunch is that a lot of the women who are drinking themselves to death are embittered spinsters and divorcées, and the increase in their numbers is the fruit of feminism.

    • Replies: @Don't Look at Me
    "It would be interesting to break the group down by marital status. My hunch is that a lot of the women who are drinking themselves to death are embittered spinsters and divorcées, and the increase in their numbers is the fruit of feminism."

    What else is a girl going to do when she sits down to watch Netflix with her six cats.
    , @Triumph104
    A drunk 49 year-old doctor died when she jumped into her estranged engineer boyfriend's chimney. He had refused to let her in his home when she went to talk to him. While she was trying to break open the back door with a shovel, he left by car unbeknownst to her and didn't return home for several days. She then found and ladder and down the chimney she went. The house sitters came by a few days later and noticed fluid dribbling from the fireplace.

    Apparently lady doc was a lush and that help lead to the breakup with the boyfriend.
  10. Women can’t handle alcohol as well as men. They develop cirrhosis at significantly higher rates than men even when drinking less alcohol.

    Maybe when they were young women took the gender equality nonsense that really went mainstream in the 90s to heart and now that they’re middle aged they’re paying for it.

    Interesting stats in the article about college educated women drinking more. I bet the heaviest female drinkers are single, overeducated childless women in their 40s. Hard to blame them.

    • Replies: @Frau Katze
    That's what my mother used to say as well. Fortunately neither of her daughters drink much (very low tolerance, get sick on a small amount).

    I think she got the idea from noticing that female alcoholics tended to die pretty young.
  11. @Hepp
    Everything about a woman's psychology and body has been shaped by evolution to be directed towards the creation and raising of children. Modern civilization has taken them away from that, and they've been brainwashed by gay men, lesbians, and the most masculine 1% of females to believe that they want to live like heterosexual men. The results have been disastrous.

    Modern civilization has taken them away from that, and they’ve been brainwashed by gay men, lesbians, and the most masculine 1% of females to believe that they want to live like heterosexual men.

    Don’t forget fathers with smaller families who didn’t get the son they wanted.

    • Replies: @BB753
    Indeed, daddies who never got the son they wanted are 50 % responsible for feminism, women in the military and law enforcement, and acceptance of female promiscuity ( "her body, her rules" kind of cucky dads) .
  12. Maps:

    Binge drinking:

    Data & Statistics | FASD | NCBDDD | CDC”

    USA ALCOHOL DEATH RATE BY STATE

    Highest in the Far West. Of course, I’m sure the second map misses a lot of alcohol-related deaths based on how they’re classified.

  13. Convenient of Carrie Fisher to die the same day this came out, as illustration of the phenomenon.

    • Replies: @Alec Leamas

    Convenient of Carrie Fisher to die the same day this came out, as illustration of the phenomenon.
     
    If her heart had had an odometer, it would have read 98 years. Cocaine is a hell of a drug.
    , @syonredux

    Convenient of Carrie Fisher to die the same day this came out, as illustration of the phenomenon.
     
    It's funny. Internet "Feminists" attacked people for commenting on Carrie Fisher's voice and appearance in Force Awakens . They ascribed the comments to sexist attitudes ("Women aren't allowed to age," etc). In reality, the comments stemmed from how drugs and alcohol had ravaged her body.

    When we saw Princess Leia in The Force Awakens, we were not simply looking at an older version of the girl that we saw in A New Hope; we were looking at a Leia who bore the stigmata of addiction....And no one wanted that for Leia....

    , @SteveRogers42
    Don-dissing diva drops dead.

    "I will not live in Trump's America."

    OK.
    , @Truth
    Real convenient to the "Coincidence Theorists".
  14. Interesting post from this past summer by a white woman who gave up the sauce: “Giving up alcohol opened my eyes to the infuriating truth about why women drink”.

    • Replies: @Jokah Macpherson
    Good for her for giving it up but I couldn't get into the article; too much feels and anger and chick solipsism.
    , @Formerly CARealist
    That was one angry feminist writing there. I couldn't get through all of it; I tire quickly of the "f" world.

    Women drink for the same reasons as men: it feels good and it's fun. I agree it's way too prevalent and binge drinking is a killer for productivity the next day. I don't see any big changes coming unfortunately. Wine tasting is everywhere and you're just not cool if you don't know your cabs and zins.
  15. This is interesting since I think people used to drink way more than they do now. My Grandmother and aunts drank whiskey and whiskey highballs and made it into their late nineties. Fraternal organizations, drinking and driving not being such a big deal, etc.

    I wonder if the real culprit here is the contraindication of their prescription medications with alcohol? The percentage of suburban women on some form of prescription medications for anxiety/mood elevation/sleep regulation is staggering. They’re mixing their drugs with alcohol and magnifying the effects while doing enormous organ damage.

    • Replies: @Anonymous

    This is interesting since I think people used to drink way more than they do now. My Grandmother and aunts drank whiskey and whiskey highballs and made it into their late nineties. Fraternal organizations, drinking and driving not being such a big deal, etc.

    I wonder if the real culprit here is the contraindication of their prescription medications with alcohol? The percentage of suburban women on some form of prescription medications for anxiety/mood elevation/sleep regulation is staggering. They’re mixing their drugs with alcohol and magnifying the effects while doing enormous organ damage.
     

    Yeah, interesting. My mom and all her friends were heavy drinkers. I'd say my mom would down a six-pack per night. Her girlfriends would get smashed on hard liquor a few times a week. My mom is still alive going on 90 but all of her friends died in their 50's and 60's from cancer. Never from alcohol abuse. They were all huge smokers. I wonder if smoking cigarettes mitigated the effects of alcohol?
    , @middle aged vet
    Alec Leamas - my guess is the trend can be roughly ascribed to one third what you said (alcohol plus a greater level of prescription drugs), one third to the fact that women are getting the same level of buzz from alcohol they did years ago but they weigh more so the same buzz requires more alcohol equals more alcohol-related wear and tear on the internal systems, and one third to the fact that there has been a general decline and fall of morals. (The fact that average obesity in white women lagged that of women of most other ethnicities by a certain number of years possibly accounts for most of the raw data that the headline writer did not, possibly, understand....). We are talking about less than 20 women in 100,000 so even small differential trends are important.
  16. @Hepp
    Everything about a woman's psychology and body has been shaped by evolution to be directed towards the creation and raising of children. Modern civilization has taken them away from that, and they've been brainwashed by gay men, lesbians, and the most masculine 1% of females to believe that they want to live like heterosexual men. The results have been disastrous.

    Even if a women likes the sauce, if they are having children responsibly they can’t imbibe much. 9 months of pregnancy and a year of breastfeeding means basically 2 years where they can’t drink much. If they are having a number of children, it’s nearly a decade of near-teetotaling. If they aren’t, well, they can drink.

  17. @Mjd701
    Maybe it's the "Sex and the City" effect. It was a very influential show that portrayed middle aged women with the drinking habits of the gay men who wrote it. It debuted in 1999. Life imitating art?

    “Maybe it’s the “Sex and the City” effect.”

    I hated that show. What a bad influence on women. The over-emphasis on clothes (especially shoes) and shopping in general was degenerate.

    • Replies: @AnotherGuessModel
    A TV series doesn't have to be prescriptive, or proscriptive for that matter. Sex and the City started out as a satire of upwardly mobile, single, urban women and the hollowness and desperation of their dating scene. The characters were written as rather pathetic, each in their own unique ways. Even with the makeup and costume design, they were meant to look kind of oversexed or overworked, and hungover. The writing had a deft and subtle touch, so it didn't judge or punish them at the end of each episode/season, but it certainly didn't celebrate them either. I can't quite pinpoint the season, but at some point, the show must have gotten so popular that the producers became greedy and corrupted. It became one big glossy fashion show, and the writing absurdly recreated the lead characters as aspirational to audiences, rather than as satirical archetypes of those kind of aspirational lifestyles.
    , @Anonymous
    Shopping? What about blowing guys on first date??
  18. @Desiderius

    Modern civilization has taken them away from that, and they’ve been brainwashed by gay men, lesbians, and the most masculine 1% of females to believe that they want to live like heterosexual men.
     
    Don't forget fathers with smaller families who didn't get the son they wanted.

    Indeed, daddies who never got the son they wanted are 50 % responsible for feminism, women in the military and law enforcement, and acceptance of female promiscuity ( “her body, her rules” kind of cucky dads) .

  19. @John Mansfield
    Convenient of Carrie Fisher to die the same day this came out, as illustration of the phenomenon.

    Convenient of Carrie Fisher to die the same day this came out, as illustration of the phenomenon.

    If her heart had had an odometer, it would have read 98 years. Cocaine is a hell of a drug.

    • Replies: @BB753
    "Cocaine is a hell of a drug."

    Say what you will, but... it don't lie.
    ( cue J. J. Cale's riff).
    , @Bill P
    Back around 2001 had an 80-year-old black neighbor who'd smoke crack on his porch. I suspect he'd been at it since at least the 70s.
    , @Dwright
    Let alone the 16 cokes she drank everyday. Addictive personality to the end.
  20. @Yep
    I wonder if the surge in popularity of wine has something to do with this and the belief that wine is "good for you" or at least not as bad for you. Next time you're stuck in a home goods type store with your wife take a look at how many pictures and other home decor have something to do with wine.

    I'm in my late 30's and it's rare to find a woman who doesn't drink and there are lots of woman who get drunk on a regular basis and they are proud of it. There's no shame attached to getting drunk anymore and it's actually accepted and cool. Go peruse an internet dating site and note the number of women who say they drink several times a week, educated women especially.

    Good Lord, how can people get drunk so often? I’m in my late thirties, too, and up until about two years ago, I was a daily drinker, but the last time I got properly shit-faced was back in my twenties. I ended up spending the following day lying on a friend’s bathroom floor because my nausea was so severe and persistent. It was the last time I said “never again.”

    I guess this story also illustrates the loneliness of twenty-something life in America; despite the fact that I spent an entire Sunday vomiting at his house, the friend was actually just glad to have someone to talk to.

    • Replies: @Jokah Macpherson
    My alcohol tolerance, which was never that great to begin with, plummeted when I reached my early thirties. I feel like shit the next day even after two drinks now and three is a recipe for a day on the bathroom floor like you describe.

    I guess it's kind of a blessing in disguise since there's not much point in drinking anymore so it guarantees that I'll cut back. Much better for long-term health.
    , @Njguy73

    Good Lord, how can people get drunk so often?
     
    As the great philosopher Chris Rock put it, money. If John Belushi made four bucks an hour he'd be alive today. If Richard Pryor had been poor, he'd have just singed a cuff.
    , @Dave Pinsen
    It is possible to get pleasantly buzzed without drinking to the point where you get sick or are hungover the next day, but people often have difficulty doing this.
    , @Intelligent Dasein
    I've had exactly the opposite experience. I'm in my mid thirties and my alcohol tolerance, which was always rather high to begin with, has, if anything, only increased with time. My metabolism has adjusted to derive a significant fraction of my daily caloric intake from ethanol. I put away quite a lot of brandy and scotch every night. I'm not overweight, still have a flat stomach, and I never feel nauseous or hungover. The last time I had a basic blood chemistry analysis, which was only about two months ago, my liver functioning was so perfect that it was almost scary, so no cirrhosis or fatty liver syndrome either.

    But I only drink at home, alone. I don't go out and drink, which is both too expensive and it invites significant legal repercussions if you happen to get pulled over. Plus, the social scene is bleak and valueless. My drinking time is coextensive with the time I have to read, write, and think, which is all I really want to do when I'm not actually at work.

    I've also noticed that no matter how much I drink, I never actually get "drunk" anymore. At most I get groggy and fall into that state of hypnogogic semi-consciousness which is about the closest I ever come to sleep. Even after 750 mLs of the hard stuff, 4 or 5 hours of that and I'm ready to roll again.

    Sometimes I wish I had a more normal physiology, but heck, nothing else about my life is normal so why should that be? If you want to run cool, you got to run on heavy, heavy fuel.
    , @Forbes

    How can people get drunk so often?
     
    Easy. Money. There is just so much more of it about these days. Four decades ago, inasmuch as everything was vastly cheaper, it was hard to go out and get drunk on a regular basis--you couldn't afford it. (Budget and cash management--no credit cards, no ATMs.) Heavy drinking would be done at home, at someone's house--at a party--with a $4.00 case of beer or a $5.00 bottle of booze.

    Today the cost of one beer or cocktail is more than that and the Millennial crowd throws drinks back like it's the last night out before boot camp or jail. Also, reasonably attractive women don't have to spend a dime--beta boys can always be guilt-tripped into buying their drinks.
  21. Articles aimed at women hype wine as a health food and weight loss tool with miraculous properties. Not only in Sex and the City was drinking made glamorous, but in almost any movie or TV show, female characters are depicted casually quaffing wine from enormous balloon glasses. Also, according to the myth of the “French paradox” we can drink wine and eat cheese and not get fat! But when I was studying in France I noticed the French women in the cafes in the afternoon were usually not drinking wine, but mineral water, or citron presse – a half lemon squeezed in a glass of water, or a tiny cup of esspresso. My mother and grandmothers never saw daily drinking as a normal or healthy practice, nor did I, but many of my cohort do.

    • Replies: @Formerly CARealist
    The French smoke at unbelievable rates. When we were there this summer it looked close to 100% of the adult population. At cafes they weren't drinking alcohol, it was espresso and cigarettes. Now there's a diet plan. No calories in coffee or tobacco.
    , @Anon
    Those medical studies that came out many years ago that touted wine as 'healthy' because it contains antioxidants and prevents developing plaque in the arteries created a generation of female alcoholics. They now had a 'healthy' excuse to drink. Everyone conveniently ignored the fact that alcohol is addictive, and it destroys the liver. As for college drinking, I think it was a lessor factor. Women have been getting plastered in college drinking binges since the flappers of the 1920s. But back then, they were more likely to quit and stay off the sauce after they graduated to become wives and mothers. And if they didn't marry right after college, many of them took jobs they had to stay sober for before they came across the man they wanted to marry.

    Yet another factor: In the days before legal abortion and the existence of birth control, you had to be careful to avoid losing control via alcohol because you might get knocked up, and this keep drinking rates lower. Getting pregnant without being married before the 1970s was stigmatized, and it was expensive, troublesome, and traumatic to get an abortion. Even if you decided to raise the kid yourself, the remarriage pool was much smaller because there was a much higher percentage of people who were married and not available. Women had a lot of economic incentives to stay sober back then.

  22. Is there any data that breaks this down between single and married women?

  23. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Alec Leamas
    This is interesting since I think people used to drink way more than they do now. My Grandmother and aunts drank whiskey and whiskey highballs and made it into their late nineties. Fraternal organizations, drinking and driving not being such a big deal, etc.

    I wonder if the real culprit here is the contraindication of their prescription medications with alcohol? The percentage of suburban women on some form of prescription medications for anxiety/mood elevation/sleep regulation is staggering. They're mixing their drugs with alcohol and magnifying the effects while doing enormous organ damage.

    This is interesting since I think people used to drink way more than they do now. My Grandmother and aunts drank whiskey and whiskey highballs and made it into their late nineties. Fraternal organizations, drinking and driving not being such a big deal, etc.

    I wonder if the real culprit here is the contraindication of their prescription medications with alcohol? The percentage of suburban women on some form of prescription medications for anxiety/mood elevation/sleep regulation is staggering. They’re mixing their drugs with alcohol and magnifying the effects while doing enormous organ damage.

    Yeah, interesting. My mom and all her friends were heavy drinkers. I’d say my mom would down a six-pack per night. Her girlfriends would get smashed on hard liquor a few times a week. My mom is still alive going on 90 but all of her friends died in their 50′s and 60′s from cancer. Never from alcohol abuse. They were all huge smokers. I wonder if smoking cigarettes mitigated the effects of alcohol?

    • Replies: @Tacitus2016
    Flight of ideas.

    I watched Hitchcock's "The Birds" last night. All the women smoking* all the time.

    The Birds was released in 1963. Watch the first 10 minutes and be depressed at what you have lost. See San Francisco early 60's. I despair for you. Have a drink or two, maybe some oxycontin, heroin.

    How things have changed for Koreans.
    From The Birds:

    Socialite Melanie Daniels(Tippi Hedren): We're sending a little Korean boy through school. We actually raise money for it.

    I assume they'd be raising money for kids in the non-commie south or maybe a refugee to the States. Either way both groups far from charity cases now.

    * Hoping hard-core open-borders multiculturalism goes the way of the cigarette. Pushed by corrupt big business, normalised, associated with glamour, vigour but very harmful for the community.
  24. @Dave Pinsen
    Interesting post from this past summer by a white woman who gave up the sauce: "Giving up alcohol opened my eyes to the infuriating truth about why women drink".

    Good for her for giving it up but I couldn’t get into the article; too much feels and anger and chick solipsism.

  25. A lot of alcoholics who in the past died in car crashes aren’t dying in car crashes anymore. (Spot checks, slower traffic, better safety equipment).

    So they now simply die of the alcohol itself.

  26. @John Mansfield
    Convenient of Carrie Fisher to die the same day this came out, as illustration of the phenomenon.

    Convenient of Carrie Fisher to die the same day this came out, as illustration of the phenomenon.

    It’s funny. Internet “Feminists” attacked people for commenting on Carrie Fisher’s voice and appearance in Force Awakens . They ascribed the comments to sexist attitudes (“Women aren’t allowed to age,” etc). In reality, the comments stemmed from how drugs and alcohol had ravaged her body.

    When we saw Princess Leia in The Force Awakens, we were not simply looking at an older version of the girl that we saw in A New Hope; we were looking at a Leia who bore the stigmata of addiction….And no one wanted that for Leia….

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Yeah, most 60 year old women don't look as old as she did. She looked like she was pushing 80. The drugs and alcohol really seemed to have aged her by 25 years or so.
    , @Anonymous
    It's kind of how Spock in the movies is a really really old looking young Vulcan. If the human characters have aged 30 years since TOS, the Vulcan should look much the same, since canonically thy live roughly 160-200 Earth years.
    , @NOTA
    Though you could imagine 30 years of running a guerilla war against vastly superior forces aging you as much as mental illness and self-medicating with cocaine.
  27. @Alec Leamas
    This is interesting since I think people used to drink way more than they do now. My Grandmother and aunts drank whiskey and whiskey highballs and made it into their late nineties. Fraternal organizations, drinking and driving not being such a big deal, etc.

    I wonder if the real culprit here is the contraindication of their prescription medications with alcohol? The percentage of suburban women on some form of prescription medications for anxiety/mood elevation/sleep regulation is staggering. They're mixing their drugs with alcohol and magnifying the effects while doing enormous organ damage.

    Alec Leamas – my guess is the trend can be roughly ascribed to one third what you said (alcohol plus a greater level of prescription drugs), one third to the fact that women are getting the same level of buzz from alcohol they did years ago but they weigh more so the same buzz requires more alcohol equals more alcohol-related wear and tear on the internal systems, and one third to the fact that there has been a general decline and fall of morals. (The fact that average obesity in white women lagged that of women of most other ethnicities by a certain number of years possibly accounts for most of the raw data that the headline writer did not, possibly, understand….). We are talking about less than 20 women in 100,000 so even small differential trends are important.

  28. @Opinionator
    Is this the same thing as the so-called "White Death"? Why aren't trends with men noted for comparison?

    Yeah, that’s the obvious question. Is this a woman-only effect or are there similar trends for men?

  29. @Alec Leamas

    Convenient of Carrie Fisher to die the same day this came out, as illustration of the phenomenon.
     
    If her heart had had an odometer, it would have read 98 years. Cocaine is a hell of a drug.

    “Cocaine is a hell of a drug.”

    Say what you will, but… it don’t lie.
    ( cue J. J. Cale’s riff).

  30. @Dave Pinsen
    Interesting post from this past summer by a white woman who gave up the sauce: "Giving up alcohol opened my eyes to the infuriating truth about why women drink".

    That was one angry feminist writing there. I couldn’t get through all of it; I tire quickly of the “f” world.

    Women drink for the same reasons as men: it feels good and it’s fun. I agree it’s way too prevalent and binge drinking is a killer for productivity the next day. I don’t see any big changes coming unfortunately. Wine tasting is everywhere and you’re just not cool if you don’t know your cabs and zins.

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    Sure, she's angry, but an insight there is how alcohol, and wine, in particular, has been pushed on and by women recently.

    Left unsaid is that lots of these women are probably also on psychiatric meds that may react poorly with alcohol.

    A meta point about this that's also true of opiates: We're not all prone to addiction. I like that my local Whole Foods stocks wine and beer next to foods they pair well with (if anything, it leads to me buying more of the food than the liquor), but it's not going to make me drink more than I would otherwise.
  31. @Stealth
    Good Lord, how can people get drunk so often? I'm in my late thirties, too, and up until about two years ago, I was a daily drinker, but the last time I got properly shit-faced was back in my twenties. I ended up spending the following day lying on a friend's bathroom floor because my nausea was so severe and persistent. It was the last time I said "never again."

    I guess this story also illustrates the loneliness of twenty-something life in America; despite the fact that I spent an entire Sunday vomiting at his house, the friend was actually just glad to have someone to talk to.

    My alcohol tolerance, which was never that great to begin with, plummeted when I reached my early thirties. I feel like shit the next day even after two drinks now and three is a recipe for a day on the bathroom floor like you describe.

    I guess it’s kind of a blessing in disguise since there’s not much point in drinking anymore so it guarantees that I’ll cut back. Much better for long-term health.

    • Replies: @Stealth
    I never could built up a decent tolerance for alcohol, either. The consumption of a mere pint of ninety proof was enough to make me ill for a good twelve hours. One New Year's Eve (I think I was twenty six), I picked up my bottle of rotgut Cuervo and shouted, "who's been drinking my tequila?" I knew the immediate future was none too bright when everyone told me that I had accomplished that all by myself.

    These days, I consume one beer a week.

  32. Vive la différence takes on more nuance!

  33. @Stealth
    Good Lord, how can people get drunk so often? I'm in my late thirties, too, and up until about two years ago, I was a daily drinker, but the last time I got properly shit-faced was back in my twenties. I ended up spending the following day lying on a friend's bathroom floor because my nausea was so severe and persistent. It was the last time I said "never again."

    I guess this story also illustrates the loneliness of twenty-something life in America; despite the fact that I spent an entire Sunday vomiting at his house, the friend was actually just glad to have someone to talk to.

    Good Lord, how can people get drunk so often?

    As the great philosopher Chris Rock put it, money. If John Belushi made four bucks an hour he’d be alive today. If Richard Pryor had been poor, he’d have just singed a cuff.

  34. @Hepp
    Everything about a woman's psychology and body has been shaped by evolution to be directed towards the creation and raising of children. Modern civilization has taken them away from that, and they've been brainwashed by gay men, lesbians, and the most masculine 1% of females to believe that they want to live like heterosexual men. The results have been disastrous.

    I agree wholeheartedly. This is just another long term effect of “women’s lib” or whatever it’s now called. Starting over forty years ago I noticed an odd pattern among college women in particular and more generally among young, single women without a serious romantic attachment. These women would go out in groups with the intention that as many as possible would have a sordid one-night stand with whatever male they happened to hook up with. This behavior was so contrary to most of these women’s individual instincts that they had to get disgustingly drunk to follow through with the plan. I suspect that for many this established a pattern of binge drinking and alcohol dependence from which they’ve been unable to escape. For others, the self-loathing induced by this behavior has probably led them to use alcohol as an anodyne for their misery. It’s sad and it should never have been allowed to happen.

    • Replies: @whorefinder
    The Facebook/Instagram/Reality TV age has only worsened the effect of feminism.

    Now, not only are they pressured in-group and by academics to hook up, not wait, sleep around, and focus on career, but now if they dress promiscuously and act hedonisticly and post their exploits online, they will receive a million "likes" and positive comments from random strangers on how "hot" they look/"you go girl!", further encouraging them to act promiscuously and like attention-hos, and thereby discouraging them from settling down and being mothers.

    And then she watches Reality TV, and sees women rewarded for hooking up, one night stands, catfighting, dressing sluttily, sex tapes, divorcing, etc. (Kim Kardashian, Paris Hilton, etc.) These only further her desire not to be a staid housewife and mother.

    The female desire for attention from as many people as possible is immense, and men repeatedly underestimate it. It is a flip side of female insecurity. Yes, men like attention too, but not at the same level females like/need it; it is a gnawing hunger in women. The female insecurity/desire for attention is like the male sex drive: the opposite sex desires the same thing, but will never understand just how badly the other side desires it more.
  35. @Chrisnonymous
    The connections with college education and binge drinking suggest that women might be continuing their university-era behaviors into middle age. Women in middle age 1999-2015 were presumably attending university in the 1980s and 90s. When did binge drinking become a thing on campus?

    The article says that college educated women drink more frequently, but non-college women are more likely to binge drink. Hence, it’s likely that most of the women who are drinking themselves to death are working class women.

    • Replies: @Chrisnonymous
    Yes, you're correct. Sloppy reading.

    But I still think we might be seeing some effects of behavioral persistance.

    The implicit message of an article like this is that something is driving these women to drink, whereas it may just be that more women started drinking frequently when younger and have persisted. Drinking is hard to give up, so if the 80s and 90s saw an increase in college drinking, this might be an artifact.

    That doesn't explain the binge-drinking change, but it might be a mistake to assume that changes in frequency of moderate drinking in one demographic are related to changes of frequency in heavy drinking in another.

    One thing nobody has mentioned is the changing patterns of food consumption over the last decades and how that might relate to drinking. Are people eating out more now and are they more likely to drink in that case? Do people drink more when their food portions are larger? Etc.
    , @NOTA
    In general, more freedom from social constraints (about sex, drugs, drinking, family formation, lifestyle) works out a lot better for smarter, better educated, wealthier people than for dumber, less educated, poorer people. It wouldn't be a big shock if this pattern held for drinking and for opioid pain meds, just as it does for nontraditional family structures (aka baby daddy of the month).
  36. @Formerly CARealist
    That was one angry feminist writing there. I couldn't get through all of it; I tire quickly of the "f" world.

    Women drink for the same reasons as men: it feels good and it's fun. I agree it's way too prevalent and binge drinking is a killer for productivity the next day. I don't see any big changes coming unfortunately. Wine tasting is everywhere and you're just not cool if you don't know your cabs and zins.

    Sure, she’s angry, but an insight there is how alcohol, and wine, in particular, has been pushed on and by women recently.

    Left unsaid is that lots of these women are probably also on psychiatric meds that may react poorly with alcohol.

    A meta point about this that’s also true of opiates: We’re not all prone to addiction. I like that my local Whole Foods stocks wine and beer next to foods they pair well with (if anything, it leads to me buying more of the food than the liquor), but it’s not going to make me drink more than I would otherwise.

    • Replies: @Cletus Rothschild
    "Sure, she’s angry, but an insight there is how alcohol, and wine, in particular, has been pushed on and by women recently.

    "Left unsaid is that lots of these women are probably also on psychiatric meds that may react poorly with alcohol."

    She describes a bizarre world indeed. She has a talent for writing, but I'll be damned if it isn't some of the most irritatingly stressful writing that I've ever read. She does to Erma Bombeck what the creators of the Hitchhiker's Guide to The Galaxy movie did to Douglas Adams. And I couldn't help but note the irony of a pregnant woman abstaining from drinking alcohol while attending a baby shower in the Bhopal-like environment of a nail parlor.
  37. @Alec Leamas

    Convenient of Carrie Fisher to die the same day this came out, as illustration of the phenomenon.
     
    If her heart had had an odometer, it would have read 98 years. Cocaine is a hell of a drug.

    Back around 2001 had an 80-year-old black neighbor who’d smoke crack on his porch. I suspect he’d been at it since at least the 70s.

  38. @Hepp
    Everything about a woman's psychology and body has been shaped by evolution to be directed towards the creation and raising of children. Modern civilization has taken them away from that, and they've been brainwashed by gay men, lesbians, and the most masculine 1% of females to believe that they want to live like heterosexual men. The results have been disastrous.

    There is one masculine thing modern women should be doing more of – weight bearing exercise. Most modern women do very little scrubbing, lifting or carrying so they need to do some weight-bearing exercise to help them burn fat. However, most of them are still under the illusion that they will bulk up if they start lifting weights.

    • Replies: @Anonymous

    There is one masculine thing modern women should be doing more of – weight bearing exercise. Most modern women do very little scrubbing, lifting or carrying so they need to do some weight-bearing exercise to help them burn fat. However, most of them are still under the illusion that they will bulk up if they start lifting weights.
     
    And working out with weights burns calories up to 36 hours afterward. Cardio just 6 hrs afterward. And it a lot easier to get your butt to the gym to hit the weight machines rather than treadmill, elliptical, etc.
    , @JW Bell
    Weight training is of little use for weight control. Diet is 80% of weight management.
  39. @Stealth
    Good Lord, how can people get drunk so often? I'm in my late thirties, too, and up until about two years ago, I was a daily drinker, but the last time I got properly shit-faced was back in my twenties. I ended up spending the following day lying on a friend's bathroom floor because my nausea was so severe and persistent. It was the last time I said "never again."

    I guess this story also illustrates the loneliness of twenty-something life in America; despite the fact that I spent an entire Sunday vomiting at his house, the friend was actually just glad to have someone to talk to.

    It is possible to get pleasantly buzzed without drinking to the point where you get sick or are hungover the next day, but people often have difficulty doing this.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    "It is possible to get pleasantly buzzed without drinking to the point where you get sick or are hungover the next day, but people often have difficulty doing this."


    In college, I found that if I drank my first drink fairly quickly and then started a second one shortly thereafter, but drank it slowly, I'd generally have a pretty nice little buzz going on a fairly small amount of alcohol.

    , @Stealth
    The only problem with drinking "just enough" is that one eventually reaches the crossroads, that point in time at which the choice must be made. Do I stop now and succumb to sleepiness, or do I go to the next level? Things get real when you choose to sober up, and nobody wants that when they're having a good time. And forget about maintenance dosing. It feels about like sobering up. Might as well just go to bed.
    , @Lot
    I don't think I ever felt "pleasantly buzzed" in a light way when I was young and binge drinked regularly. I did not feel much at all until drink number 5 or so.
    , @S. Anonyia
    This is only possible for people who aren't overweight/obese though.

    Which is a small percentage of women over 30, and an even smaller percentage of working class women, who are the ones who are suffering the most from this problem despite drinking less frequently.

    Normally it takes just 2 drinks for me to feel really buzzed and borderline drunk. I'm not thin, just normal weight.

    But the unfortunate year of college I spent overweight it took 4 to feel anything.

    Obesity (and probably overuse of prescriptions) is making alcohol abuse more dangerous, especially for women.
  40. Watch the video “Video Games” by Lana Del Rey. It seems to criticize this alot. It’s almost an alt-right video.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    Watch the video “Video Games” by Lana Del Rey. It seems to criticize this alot. It’s almost an alt-right video.
     
    Lana Del Rey is practically an Alt-Right singer, for that matter. There's a reason why she got a lot of heat from feminists.
  41. @Anonymous
    "Maybe it’s the “Sex and the City” effect."

    I hated that show. What a bad influence on women. The over-emphasis on clothes (especially shoes) and shopping in general was degenerate.

    A TV series doesn’t have to be prescriptive, or proscriptive for that matter. Sex and the City started out as a satire of upwardly mobile, single, urban women and the hollowness and desperation of their dating scene. The characters were written as rather pathetic, each in their own unique ways. Even with the makeup and costume design, they were meant to look kind of oversexed or overworked, and hungover. The writing had a deft and subtle touch, so it didn’t judge or punish them at the end of each episode/season, but it certainly didn’t celebrate them either. I can’t quite pinpoint the season, but at some point, the show must have gotten so popular that the producers became greedy and corrupted. It became one big glossy fashion show, and the writing absurdly recreated the lead characters as aspirational to audiences, rather than as satirical archetypes of those kind of aspirational lifestyles.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    "I can’t quite pinpoint the season, but at some point, the show must have gotten so popular that the producers became greedy and corrupted. It became one big glossy fashion show, and the writing absurdly recreated the lead characters as aspirational to audiences, rather than as satirical archetypes of those kind of aspirational lifestyles."

    That's interesting. I didn't realize the show changed in that way. The characters were pathetic, although I didn't think Charlotte was that bad.
    , @Alec Leamas

    A TV series doesn’t have to be prescriptive, or proscriptive for that matter. Sex and the City started out as a satire of upwardly mobile, single, urban women and the hollowness and desperation of their dating scene. The characters were written as rather pathetic, each in their own unique ways.
     
    I had heard a story - perhaps apocryphal - that the original concept was to be about the exploits of four gay men but changed because at the time (1998) the network people weren't certain that a show about promiscuous and catty urban gay men could capture an audience. So they swapped in women to play parts which were in essence gay men characters. Later the HBO/Showtime people were able to push the envelope and produce Queer as Folk, which is what SATC was supposed to be from the first.
  42. Good comments by all, some thoughts:

    1. Women genuinely can’t handle as much alcohol as men; this is one reason why heavy drinking was always seen as manly. It’s another example of pretending biological sex differences don’t exist. (And yes, men become alcoholics and get cirrhosis too, but if women try to copy men they are going to get into trouble faster.)

    2. I suspect the college women are drinking and the blue-collar women are drinking and dying. Whatever the negative effects of college it does serve as a self-control test. Not that college-educated people don’t drink themselves to death but the White Death is disproportionately hitting the uneducated (and you remember cirrhosis was there with hep C and opioid overdoses).

    3. Moderate amounts of alcohol do seem to have a cardioprotective effect. Alcohol is addictive, which means many people can’t stop at moderate amounts. This means we are going to go around and around forever on whether it is good or not until we can swab people’s cheeks and check the serotonin and dopamine receptor polymorphisms (and those for all the neurotransmitters we don’t know are involved yet).

    • Replies: @Desiderius

    I suspect the college women are drinking and the blue-collar women are drinking and dying.
     
    And I suspect that the former contributes to the latter. In former times, when that class of woman wanted to virtue-signal, they more or less took care to signal healthy virtues, among them modesty and temperance, and the blue-collar women took their cue from their lead, whereas now it's almost entirely the opposite. The best were also heavily involved in maintaining the societal (and, yes, spiritual) support systems for those women now drinking and dying in their abandonment.

    One of the few things worse than a Women's Christian Temperance Union is a Women's post-Christian SJW competition.

    , @Johanus de Morgateroyde

    Whatever the negative effects of college it does serve as a self-control test.
     
    Not test, filter.
  43. The irony of reading this while watching a report on FOX about the black shootings in my little town. What are the two defining characteristics of pop culture? I’m a (white)WOMAN and Ima do what I want!! and I’m BLACK and Ima do what I want!

  44. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @unpc downunder
    There is one masculine thing modern women should be doing more of - weight bearing exercise. Most modern women do very little scrubbing, lifting or carrying so they need to do some weight-bearing exercise to help them burn fat. However, most of them are still under the illusion that they will bulk up if they start lifting weights.

    There is one masculine thing modern women should be doing more of – weight bearing exercise. Most modern women do very little scrubbing, lifting or carrying so they need to do some weight-bearing exercise to help them burn fat. However, most of them are still under the illusion that they will bulk up if they start lifting weights.

    And working out with weights burns calories up to 36 hours afterward. Cardio just 6 hrs afterward. And it a lot easier to get your butt to the gym to hit the weight machines rather than treadmill, elliptical, etc.

  45. @Jokah Macpherson
    My alcohol tolerance, which was never that great to begin with, plummeted when I reached my early thirties. I feel like shit the next day even after two drinks now and three is a recipe for a day on the bathroom floor like you describe.

    I guess it's kind of a blessing in disguise since there's not much point in drinking anymore so it guarantees that I'll cut back. Much better for long-term health.

    I never could built up a decent tolerance for alcohol, either. The consumption of a mere pint of ninety proof was enough to make me ill for a good twelve hours. One New Year’s Eve (I think I was twenty six), I picked up my bottle of rotgut Cuervo and shouted, “who’s been drinking my tequila?” I knew the immediate future was none too bright when everyone told me that I had accomplished that all by myself.

    These days, I consume one beer a week.

    • Replies: @Chrisnonymous
    The quality of the alcohol really, really does have an affect on the outcomes, and it's not only about the hangover. The buzz from a higher quality wine is a higher quality buzz, too, that produces more relaxation and openness relative to the stupefacient effects.
  46. @Anonymous
    "Maybe it’s the “Sex and the City” effect."

    I hated that show. What a bad influence on women. The over-emphasis on clothes (especially shoes) and shopping in general was degenerate.

    Shopping? What about blowing guys on first date??

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    "Shopping? What about blowing guys on first date??"

    That was also bad. But, my impression is that some women knew that was not good, but they might have felt comfortable absorbing the messages about shopping and spending money (even if they didn't have it) on clothes for status or as a kind of therapy.

    , @SFG
    Shhh....
  47. @Chrisnonymous
    The connections with college education and binge drinking suggest that women might be continuing their university-era behaviors into middle age. Women in middle age 1999-2015 were presumably attending university in the 1980s and 90s. When did binge drinking become a thing on campus?

    Binge drinking on campus probably ticked up when the drinking age was raised to 21 in most states (a terrible idea).

  48. @unpc downunder
    There is one masculine thing modern women should be doing more of - weight bearing exercise. Most modern women do very little scrubbing, lifting or carrying so they need to do some weight-bearing exercise to help them burn fat. However, most of them are still under the illusion that they will bulk up if they start lifting weights.

    Weight training is of little use for weight control. Diet is 80% of weight management.

  49. @syonredux

    Convenient of Carrie Fisher to die the same day this came out, as illustration of the phenomenon.
     
    It's funny. Internet "Feminists" attacked people for commenting on Carrie Fisher's voice and appearance in Force Awakens . They ascribed the comments to sexist attitudes ("Women aren't allowed to age," etc). In reality, the comments stemmed from how drugs and alcohol had ravaged her body.

    When we saw Princess Leia in The Force Awakens, we were not simply looking at an older version of the girl that we saw in A New Hope; we were looking at a Leia who bore the stigmata of addiction....And no one wanted that for Leia....

    Yeah, most 60 year old women don’t look as old as she did. She looked like she was pushing 80. The drugs and alcohol really seemed to have aged her by 25 years or so.

    • Replies: @bomag
    I'm almost inclined to complement her for living to 60, considering all the chemically engaged starlets that didn't make it out of their 20s.
    , @John Mansfield
    And Debbie Reynolds is still alive at 84.
  50. It does seem that women tend to get a little more intoxicated than men when they go drinking in bars.

  51. When topics like this come up I always read/hear a lot of talk about all of the lonely middle aged spinsters who ‘rode the cock carousel’ too long until it was too late and now they are dried up, unmarried, childless, and alone.

    But the thing is if I reflect here in my mid 30s about all of the girls and women that I have ever known – from growing up, high school, college, my 20s, and beyond – basically every single one of them that I know anything about is married. It doesn’t matter if they were major sluts or prudes, thin or fat, nice or a complete bitch, good personality or bad personality, rich or poor, career-oriented or not, virgin or pulled a train on spring break, or whatever else, every last one of them eventually, sooner or later, got married to some man or other. And most had kids.

    I’m not saying they are all necessarily happily married, and there are probably some divorces already and more in the making, but this idea of there being all of these hordes of never married middle aged women who “waited too long,” well I just don’t see it.

    So is my experience or those people I’ve had contact with in my life atypical? I will grant that I haven’t had many acquaintances that would be in the working class or poor category since middle school, and have mostly no idea what those people are up to these days, but when it comes to the college-bound types that people tend to stereotype, I can say that in my sample almost no women end up unmarried.

    • Replies: @anon

    but this idea of there being all of these hordes of never married middle aged women who “waited too long,” well I just don’t see it.
     
    I've known quite a few in government careers: teacher, social worker, bureaucrat type jobs. They tend to be left of centre politically - as that tends to go with the feminism angle - so you may move in different circles.
    , @Desiderius
    That's my sense as well. The big deficit is missing out on the sort of personal development one enjoys from being married reasonably well at a young age. That and post-wall women tend to end up marrying less well than they would have had they struck while their iron was hotter. There are more spinsters now, but not that many more.
  52. @Bill P
    Women can't handle alcohol as well as men. They develop cirrhosis at significantly higher rates than men even when drinking less alcohol.

    Maybe when they were young women took the gender equality nonsense that really went mainstream in the 90s to heart and now that they're middle aged they're paying for it.

    Interesting stats in the article about college educated women drinking more. I bet the heaviest female drinkers are single, overeducated childless women in their 40s. Hard to blame them.

    That’s what my mother used to say as well. Fortunately neither of her daughters drink much (very low tolerance, get sick on a small amount).

    I think she got the idea from noticing that female alcoholics tended to die pretty young.

  53. @Yep
    I wonder if the surge in popularity of wine has something to do with this and the belief that wine is "good for you" or at least not as bad for you. Next time you're stuck in a home goods type store with your wife take a look at how many pictures and other home decor have something to do with wine.

    I'm in my late 30's and it's rare to find a woman who doesn't drink and there are lots of woman who get drunk on a regular basis and they are proud of it. There's no shame attached to getting drunk anymore and it's actually accepted and cool. Go peruse an internet dating site and note the number of women who say they drink several times a week, educated women especially.

    “Drinking” every single day isn’t unhealthy, at all, if it’s a small quantity of red wine (not hard liquor and not a large quantity of any alcohol). Certainly drinking a glass of wine every night is fine, so several nights per week raises no red flags at all.

    Presumably these women are drinking way more than one glass per night or per episode.

    I’d rather date, and marry, a woman who drinks a glass of wine regularly than a woman who doesn’t drink at all. But a woman who gets drunk more than very occasionally is unattractive in several respects, including her eventual appearance and her long-term health prospects.

    My wife is perfect in this regard as many others: zero alcohol (and for that matter zero caffeine) when pregnant or trying to get pregnant, only a small glass of wine rarely while in the breastfeeding months (years), and just slightly more often otherwise.

    Women who never have children are likelier to fall into all sorts of self medication to cover the painful and unfixable emotional / psychological gap that results.
    Unfixable

    • Agree: PV van der Byl
  54. @Dave Pinsen
    It is possible to get pleasantly buzzed without drinking to the point where you get sick or are hungover the next day, but people often have difficulty doing this.

    “It is possible to get pleasantly buzzed without drinking to the point where you get sick or are hungover the next day, but people often have difficulty doing this.”

    In college, I found that if I drank my first drink fairly quickly and then started a second one shortly thereafter, but drank it slowly, I’d generally have a pretty nice little buzz going on a fairly small amount of alcohol.

  55. @Jus' Sayin'...
    I agree wholeheartedly. This is just another long term effect of "women's lib" or whatever it's now called. Starting over forty years ago I noticed an odd pattern among college women in particular and more generally among young, single women without a serious romantic attachment. These women would go out in groups with the intention that as many as possible would have a sordid one-night stand with whatever male they happened to hook up with. This behavior was so contrary to most of these women's individual instincts that they had to get disgustingly drunk to follow through with the plan. I suspect that for many this established a pattern of binge drinking and alcohol dependence from which they've been unable to escape. For others, the self-loathing induced by this behavior has probably led them to use alcohol as an anodyne for their misery. It's sad and it should never have been allowed to happen.

    The Facebook/Instagram/Reality TV age has only worsened the effect of feminism.

    Now, not only are they pressured in-group and by academics to hook up, not wait, sleep around, and focus on career, but now if they dress promiscuously and act hedonisticly and post their exploits online, they will receive a million “likes” and positive comments from random strangers on how “hot” they look/”you go girl!”, further encouraging them to act promiscuously and like attention-hos, and thereby discouraging them from settling down and being mothers.

    And then she watches Reality TV, and sees women rewarded for hooking up, one night stands, catfighting, dressing sluttily, sex tapes, divorcing, etc. (Kim Kardashian, Paris Hilton, etc.) These only further her desire not to be a staid housewife and mother.

    The female desire for attention from as many people as possible is immense, and men repeatedly underestimate it. It is a flip side of female insecurity. Yes, men like attention too, but not at the same level females like/need it; it is a gnawing hunger in women. The female insecurity/desire for attention is like the male sex drive: the opposite sex desires the same thing, but will never understand just how badly the other side desires it more.

    • Agree: Triumph104
    • Replies: @Jus' Sayin'...
    Thanks for so well articulating something that I've often noticed. There is an almost perfect symmetry between the human female's desire for attention/care and the human male's desire for sex/physical contact.

    I first noticed this when I was regularly babysitting my five-year-old nephew at a local playground. If any boys were present they'd spontaneously form a playgroup. If girls were present they'd position themselves near my nephew or any other available boys and engage in attention getting behavior until they boy(s) noticed and/or interacted with them.

    I've since observed this female behavior in other playground settings, and among adults on beaches, in bars, at various waiting stations in airports, train terminals, etc. The early age of onset and universality of this behavior suggests to me that it's a genetically programmed feature of human females.

    If only I'd psyched out this female need in my youth, I'd easily have been able to satisfy my genetically programmed lust.
    , @Forbes
    This.

    The female desire for attention from as many people as possible is immense, and men repeatedly underestimate it. It is a flip side of female insecurity.
     
    True.

    In 30 years of people watching in Manhattan bars, you'd be excused for thinking the sexes have changed roles--a result of a feminized education system, female entitlement, "you go grrl!" encouragement, and manliness viewed as dysfunction. Young women provocatively parade about dressed promiscuously, behaving assertively, aggressively (as men once did), while young men are mostly passive, awaiting for consent to be granted an audience. The young men are paranoid to the point of paralysis at the mere mention of the topic of sexual harassment/rape while being used as meal/drinks tickets.

    Pathetic.
  56. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @AnotherGuessModel
    A TV series doesn't have to be prescriptive, or proscriptive for that matter. Sex and the City started out as a satire of upwardly mobile, single, urban women and the hollowness and desperation of their dating scene. The characters were written as rather pathetic, each in their own unique ways. Even with the makeup and costume design, they were meant to look kind of oversexed or overworked, and hungover. The writing had a deft and subtle touch, so it didn't judge or punish them at the end of each episode/season, but it certainly didn't celebrate them either. I can't quite pinpoint the season, but at some point, the show must have gotten so popular that the producers became greedy and corrupted. It became one big glossy fashion show, and the writing absurdly recreated the lead characters as aspirational to audiences, rather than as satirical archetypes of those kind of aspirational lifestyles.

    “I can’t quite pinpoint the season, but at some point, the show must have gotten so popular that the producers became greedy and corrupted. It became one big glossy fashion show, and the writing absurdly recreated the lead characters as aspirational to audiences, rather than as satirical archetypes of those kind of aspirational lifestyles.”

    That’s interesting. I didn’t realize the show changed in that way. The characters were pathetic, although I didn’t think Charlotte was that bad.

  57. @Anonymous
    Shopping? What about blowing guys on first date??

    “Shopping? What about blowing guys on first date??”

    That was also bad. But, my impression is that some women knew that was not good, but they might have felt comfortable absorbing the messages about shopping and spending money (even if they didn’t have it) on clothes for status or as a kind of therapy.

  58. @Dave Pinsen
    It is possible to get pleasantly buzzed without drinking to the point where you get sick or are hungover the next day, but people often have difficulty doing this.

    The only problem with drinking “just enough” is that one eventually reaches the crossroads, that point in time at which the choice must be made. Do I stop now and succumb to sleepiness, or do I go to the next level? Things get real when you choose to sober up, and nobody wants that when they’re having a good time. And forget about maintenance dosing. It feels about like sobering up. Might as well just go to bed.

    • Agree: Travis
    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    Try a cup of coffee or an espresso at your crossroads next time.
    , @Forbes
    I've never found it that complicated to pace oneself--but it does require self-knowledge, self-discipline, and self-control. Meaning: Ignoring peer pressure. Drinking alcohol for enjoyment is not a race or a contest--one whose prize is usually a hangover and a wicked headache. If going to bed is an option--that's probably the choice you should make. Missing some good times will mean missing all the bad times.
  59. @Anonymous
    Shopping? What about blowing guys on first date??

    Shhh….

  60. This talk of promoting wine for health and binge drinking in college I doubt has anything to do with rising drinking deaths, which is more likely the lower tenth of the white population falling from working class to lumpenprole status, with nearly nobody in the extended family with a stable job but many on disability, and drinking heavily every day to take the boredom and pain away.

  61. Certainly drinking a glass of wine every night is fine, so several nights per week raises no red flags at all.

    Depends on which white people we are talking about. In areas of Europe where people evolved to tolerate alcohol as a safe and clean source of liquids and calories, sure it is harmless. For the Irish and Russians, I’m not not so sure.

    • Replies: @Bill P

    Depends on which white people we are talking about. In areas of Europe where people evolved to tolerate alcohol as a safe and clean source of liquids and calories, sure it is harmless. For the Irish and Russians, I’m not not so sure.
     
    Irish are totally evolved to handle alcohol. Look here: lowest rate of death from cirrhosis out of fifteen selected European countries from 1950-1995.

    Surely they weren't the lightest drinkers.

    In my personal experience Scandinavians are amongst the least tolerant of alcohol, but they are also the most abstemious in Europe. Finns are in another world when it comes to alcohol problems. They are almost as bad as American Indians. It's pretty amazing how well they manage their society given this unfortunate tendency.

    The Irish, on the other hand, bring the whole family to the pub and everyone comes home healthy, happy and no worse for the wear. Sure, plenty of Irish have drinking problems, and plenty of Celts have fighting problems, but the two exist independently of each other; sober Irish will quarrel as soon as - if not sooner - than drunk ones. And an Irish drinking problem is a lot less pathetic than the Nordic guys I've seen passed out on immaculate city streets covered in blood from drinking out of bottles they were too drunk to open without breaking them and swilling from the jagged necks.

    , @Captain Tripps

    Depends on which white people we are talking about.
     
    In one sense, this WaPo article is unsuprising. Of all the races and ethnic groups worldwide, Europeans (and the associated New World diaspora) drink the most alcohol. The rate of deaths climbing is what is curious, and raises questions about the underlying causes. I suspect both increased affluence (more wealth; much easier availability and much broader variety) and cultural factors, both negative and positive (certain strains of feminism, the growth of wine, craft beer and craft spirits culture in the US, and others already mentioned), that have emerged over the last 50 years.

    Drill down more into the various Euro-American subgroups and what are the numbers? I suspect, as noted elsewhere in this thread, that blue-collar white women from Anglo-Celt groups (Scots-Irish, Irish, Welsh) are probably well represented in this trend. The Germanics/Scandi's probably so as well. Not sure about Central/East/Southern Euro-American women. Italian and Greek American women I've known seemed to be able to drink much more moderately than the Scots-Irish women in my family (my Mom could throw them back in her day - beer and mixed drinks - but into middle age she drastically cut back and then quit altogether by age 55). But my sample size is limited to the white ethnics of suburbia Chicagoland in late 60s/70s/early 80s. OTOH I understand that New World descendants of French (in Canada and US) are more prone to alcoholism than their old world cousins, who are much more like the Italians, Spanish and Greeks in consumption/addiction.

    Personally I drank a lot in my late teens/early 20's, moderately from then until my mid-30's, then drastically cut back when I became a father to my current consumption level, which is 2-3 drinks per week.
  62. As noted, this is deaths per 100,000 so, in the interest of clarity, does female death rate include transgenders or just people born female?

  63. Break it down by class and religious background. Working class White Protestant women are probably off the charts.

  64. @SFG
    Good comments by all, some thoughts:

    1. Women genuinely can't handle as much alcohol as men; this is one reason why heavy drinking was always seen as manly. It's another example of pretending biological sex differences don't exist. (And yes, men become alcoholics and get cirrhosis too, but if women try to copy men they are going to get into trouble faster.)

    2. I suspect the college women are drinking and the blue-collar women are drinking and dying. Whatever the negative effects of college it does serve as a self-control test. Not that college-educated people don't drink themselves to death but the White Death is disproportionately hitting the uneducated (and you remember cirrhosis was there with hep C and opioid overdoses).

    3. Moderate amounts of alcohol do seem to have a cardioprotective effect. Alcohol is addictive, which means many people can't stop at moderate amounts. This means we are going to go around and around forever on whether it is good or not until we can swab people's cheeks and check the serotonin and dopamine receptor polymorphisms (and those for all the neurotransmitters we don't know are involved yet).

    I suspect the college women are drinking and the blue-collar women are drinking and dying.

    And I suspect that the former contributes to the latter. In former times, when that class of woman wanted to virtue-signal, they more or less took care to signal healthy virtues, among them modesty and temperance, and the blue-collar women took their cue from their lead, whereas now it’s almost entirely the opposite. The best were also heavily involved in maintaining the societal (and, yes, spiritual) support systems for those women now drinking and dying in their abandonment.

    One of the few things worse than a Women’s Christian Temperance Union is a Women’s post-Christian SJW competition.

    • Replies: @SFG
    Yes, I think you've hit the nail on the head. The lack of positive virtues modeled by the upper classes hits the lower classes harder. The upper middle class, with their 110 IQs and large salaries, can engage in polyamory, swinging, and wine tasting, but when the blue-collar types try it they'll wind up with baby mamas, gunfights, and cirrhosis.

    There was an article on this in National Review, ages ago. Anyone remember it?
  65. @Mjd701
    Maybe it's the "Sex and the City" effect. It was a very influential show that portrayed middle aged women with the drinking habits of the gay men who wrote it. It debuted in 1999. Life imitating art?

    Concur. Know many women who drink multiple glasses of wine every day of the week, and wine + cocktails on the wkend. S & the C really glamourized the urban cocktail culture as de rigeur for the modern femme.

    Part of me is wondering if heavy booze consumption is the women’s less lethal version of the heroine & meth crisis which is more a men’s problem. At least in rural & mountain areas?

  66. “FEMINISM: WOMEN AND CHILDREN HIT HARDEST”

  67. I wonder if this problem is worse with single white women. Single and independent white women are said to be happier than housewives, but the opposite seems true.

    • Replies: @Michelle
    Single here, 54, pretty happy. I have a new dog, she loves to walk and walk. I love to walk and walk! Never married. I used to be very good looking and had my choice of men, but due to my family background, I could never put my complete trust in a man. I wish that I could have, but it never did happen.

    I would not touch alcohol for most of my life and was hesitant to even take an aspirin, although I suffered from severe migraines, because I had parents who were alcholics and drug addicts. At the age of 48, I started dating a man who lived on a boat. He would make me a cocktail and we would sit on the deck and watch the world go by. I took to the cocktails like a duck to water. I truly did not know what I had been missing!

    I have been drinking, every night, ever since. Blood will tell. After menopause, I care not for men. I still like them, but feel no need for a man's company as I used to do. I like the freedom of it. Before, biologically, I was all about men, attracting them and pleasing them. Now, I do what I want. I eat what I want, look how I want, watch what kind of movies I want. I don't miss being a Grandma, but I do miss my parents who died young. I, however, would not mind dying relatively young (my mom died at the age of 57, my dad at 60) to avoid all the physical misery that comes with old age. I don't want to live past 75. Drinking may help with that. I think that I need to drink more, though.
    , @Daniel Chieh
    Self-reporting is a not a great method.
  68. @AnotherGuessModel
    A TV series doesn't have to be prescriptive, or proscriptive for that matter. Sex and the City started out as a satire of upwardly mobile, single, urban women and the hollowness and desperation of their dating scene. The characters were written as rather pathetic, each in their own unique ways. Even with the makeup and costume design, they were meant to look kind of oversexed or overworked, and hungover. The writing had a deft and subtle touch, so it didn't judge or punish them at the end of each episode/season, but it certainly didn't celebrate them either. I can't quite pinpoint the season, but at some point, the show must have gotten so popular that the producers became greedy and corrupted. It became one big glossy fashion show, and the writing absurdly recreated the lead characters as aspirational to audiences, rather than as satirical archetypes of those kind of aspirational lifestyles.

    A TV series doesn’t have to be prescriptive, or proscriptive for that matter. Sex and the City started out as a satire of upwardly mobile, single, urban women and the hollowness and desperation of their dating scene. The characters were written as rather pathetic, each in their own unique ways.

    I had heard a story – perhaps apocryphal – that the original concept was to be about the exploits of four gay men but changed because at the time (1998) the network people weren’t certain that a show about promiscuous and catty urban gay men could capture an audience. So they swapped in women to play parts which were in essence gay men characters. Later the HBO/Showtime people were able to push the envelope and produce Queer as Folk, which is what SATC was supposed to be from the first.

  69. @Desiderius

    I suspect the college women are drinking and the blue-collar women are drinking and dying.
     
    And I suspect that the former contributes to the latter. In former times, when that class of woman wanted to virtue-signal, they more or less took care to signal healthy virtues, among them modesty and temperance, and the blue-collar women took their cue from their lead, whereas now it's almost entirely the opposite. The best were also heavily involved in maintaining the societal (and, yes, spiritual) support systems for those women now drinking and dying in their abandonment.

    One of the few things worse than a Women's Christian Temperance Union is a Women's post-Christian SJW competition.

    Yes, I think you’ve hit the nail on the head. The lack of positive virtues modeled by the upper classes hits the lower classes harder. The upper middle class, with their 110 IQs and large salaries, can engage in polyamory, swinging, and wine tasting, but when the blue-collar types try it they’ll wind up with baby mamas, gunfights, and cirrhosis.

    There was an article on this in National Review, ages ago. Anyone remember it?

    • Agree: Lot
    • Replies: @Yep
    That's pretty much the entire thesis of Charles Murray's book Coming Apart, but Murray says that the upper classes aren't engaging in this self destructive behavior but rather are shamed into not showing guidance to the lower classes by today's pc culture where you can never criticize anyone for anything.
    , @snorlax
    Polyamory/swinging is a weirdo thing; it's emphatically not an upper-class thing.

    (Source: Have been upper-middle-class in the Boston area my whole life).
    , @Njguy73
    I recall John Derbyshire's review of Life at the Bottom by Theodore Dalrymple.

    The New Criterion, January 2002

    "It is clear, however, that all the cant of our age, all the doctrines of moral and cultural relativism that seized hold of the educated classes in the years after WW2...have seeped down into the dull minds at the bottom of society, turning toxic in the process...Why should a low-IQ barely-literate youth believe in the doctrine of free will, when, for all he can see, his intellectual superiors have given up on it?"

    "...if there is a lesson to be drawn from Life at the Bottom, it is that a society's choice is never between having an elite and not having one, it is always between having an elite with a sense of responsibility and a will to provide leadership, and having an elite with neither."

    http://www.johnderbyshire.com/Reviews/Miscellaneous/lifeatthebottom.html

    , @Monogamoose
    I have lived in several large cities in blue states and fall into the upper-class demographic. Polyamory and swinging are non-existent in these circles, perhaps with the closest thing being peripheral gay men (inflated net worths from no kids, not as risky to accumulate home equity in the hood). Wine tastings are a thing, as is craft beer and sipping bourbon. The straight couples tend to be monogamous workaholics, post-college onward.

    As others have noted, the issue is with blue-collar types engaging in past-times, for which there is no clear upper-class equivalent in the last 30 years. Lower 50% Tom plays Xbox in his boxers until 4pm on Saturday, drinking Jack and cokes. Or he talks his girlfriend into going to a Fetlife party, which strains the relationship and they break up. Or they get matching visible tattoos, marring their career prospects.

    Lower 30% Bob sees this and thinks there is only one thing that could make Tom's situation better: weed and Oxy!

    The closest these activities ever came to being middle-upper class was in the Bubble, when Tom and company borrowed their way into the middle-upper class.

  70. @Lot

    Certainly drinking a glass of wine every night is fine, so several nights per week raises no red flags at all.
     
    Depends on which white people we are talking about. In areas of Europe where people evolved to tolerate alcohol as a safe and clean source of liquids and calories, sure it is harmless. For the Irish and Russians, I'm not not so sure.

    Depends on which white people we are talking about. In areas of Europe where people evolved to tolerate alcohol as a safe and clean source of liquids and calories, sure it is harmless. For the Irish and Russians, I’m not not so sure.

    Irish are totally evolved to handle alcohol. Look here: lowest rate of death from cirrhosis out of fifteen selected European countries from 1950-1995.

    Surely they weren’t the lightest drinkers.

    In my personal experience Scandinavians are amongst the least tolerant of alcohol, but they are also the most abstemious in Europe. Finns are in another world when it comes to alcohol problems. They are almost as bad as American Indians. It’s pretty amazing how well they manage their society given this unfortunate tendency.

    The Irish, on the other hand, bring the whole family to the pub and everyone comes home healthy, happy and no worse for the wear. Sure, plenty of Irish have drinking problems, and plenty of Celts have fighting problems, but the two exist independently of each other; sober Irish will quarrel as soon as – if not sooner – than drunk ones. And an Irish drinking problem is a lot less pathetic than the Nordic guys I’ve seen passed out on immaculate city streets covered in blood from drinking out of bottles they were too drunk to open without breaking them and swilling from the jagged necks.

    • Agree: Dan Hayes
    • Replies: @Lot
    My observation of a fair number of Scandi students and knowledge workers in the USA is they tend to be shy and binge drinking is a fun way to loosen the inhibitions. I did not know of any who were daily or problem drinkers, but I went to a good college so this was a fairly select group.

    I don't think cirrhosis death rates is a great proxy of problem drinking though. Finland is in the low group and Italy, France, Spain, Austria, and Germany are in the high group.

    What this does suggest is that any regular drinking is bad for the liver.
  71. @Anonymous
    Yeah, most 60 year old women don't look as old as she did. She looked like she was pushing 80. The drugs and alcohol really seemed to have aged her by 25 years or so.

    I’m almost inclined to complement her for living to 60, considering all the chemically engaged starlets that didn’t make it out of their 20s.

  72. @Crawfurdmuir
    It would be interesting to break the group down by marital status. My hunch is that a lot of the women who are drinking themselves to death are embittered spinsters and divorcées, and the increase in their numbers is the fruit of feminism.

    “It would be interesting to break the group down by marital status. My hunch is that a lot of the women who are drinking themselves to death are embittered spinsters and divorcées, and the increase in their numbers is the fruit of feminism.”

    What else is a girl going to do when she sits down to watch Netflix with her six cats.

  73. @SFG
    Yes, I think you've hit the nail on the head. The lack of positive virtues modeled by the upper classes hits the lower classes harder. The upper middle class, with their 110 IQs and large salaries, can engage in polyamory, swinging, and wine tasting, but when the blue-collar types try it they'll wind up with baby mamas, gunfights, and cirrhosis.

    There was an article on this in National Review, ages ago. Anyone remember it?

    That’s pretty much the entire thesis of Charles Murray’s book Coming Apart, but Murray says that the upper classes aren’t engaging in this self destructive behavior but rather are shamed into not showing guidance to the lower classes by today’s pc culture where you can never criticize anyone for anything.

    • Agree: snorlax
    • Replies: @Alec Leamas

    That’s pretty much the entire thesis of Charles Murray’s book Coming Apart, but Murray says that the upper classes aren’t engaging in this self destructive behavior but rather are shamed into not showing guidance to the lower classes by today’s pc culture where you can never criticize anyone for anything.
     
    If that's his thesis, it's completely wrong.

    The self-regarded upper classes mock and criticize the white lower classes incessantly. It's sport for them. We just had an election where it was a decisive factor in the outcome.
    , @Desiderius

    today’s pc culture where you can never criticize anyone for anything
     
    I'm sure that sentence made a lot more sense when you were writing it.

    You are onto something, but I think you're conflating two distinct phenomena.
    , @ussr andy
    it's also the thesis behind much of Theodore Dalrymple's (who was a prison doctor in England) work: "Life at the Bottom"; "Spoilt Rotten"; and as to never being able to criticize anyone for anything (it's definitely a thing), "In praise of Prejudice" and "Litter."
  74. @Stealth
    The only problem with drinking "just enough" is that one eventually reaches the crossroads, that point in time at which the choice must be made. Do I stop now and succumb to sleepiness, or do I go to the next level? Things get real when you choose to sober up, and nobody wants that when they're having a good time. And forget about maintenance dosing. It feels about like sobering up. Might as well just go to bed.

    Try a cup of coffee or an espresso at your crossroads next time.

    • Replies: @Stealth
    A single high-alcohol beer and and an episode of something entertaining is good enough for me these days. I stay away from the crossroads.
  75. @Bill P

    Depends on which white people we are talking about. In areas of Europe where people evolved to tolerate alcohol as a safe and clean source of liquids and calories, sure it is harmless. For the Irish and Russians, I’m not not so sure.
     
    Irish are totally evolved to handle alcohol. Look here: lowest rate of death from cirrhosis out of fifteen selected European countries from 1950-1995.

    Surely they weren't the lightest drinkers.

    In my personal experience Scandinavians are amongst the least tolerant of alcohol, but they are also the most abstemious in Europe. Finns are in another world when it comes to alcohol problems. They are almost as bad as American Indians. It's pretty amazing how well they manage their society given this unfortunate tendency.

    The Irish, on the other hand, bring the whole family to the pub and everyone comes home healthy, happy and no worse for the wear. Sure, plenty of Irish have drinking problems, and plenty of Celts have fighting problems, but the two exist independently of each other; sober Irish will quarrel as soon as - if not sooner - than drunk ones. And an Irish drinking problem is a lot less pathetic than the Nordic guys I've seen passed out on immaculate city streets covered in blood from drinking out of bottles they were too drunk to open without breaking them and swilling from the jagged necks.

    My observation of a fair number of Scandi students and knowledge workers in the USA is they tend to be shy and binge drinking is a fun way to loosen the inhibitions. I did not know of any who were daily or problem drinkers, but I went to a good college so this was a fairly select group.

    I don’t think cirrhosis death rates is a great proxy of problem drinking though. Finland is in the low group and Italy, France, Spain, Austria, and Germany are in the high group.

    What this does suggest is that any regular drinking is bad for the liver.

  76. @Dave Pinsen
    It is possible to get pleasantly buzzed without drinking to the point where you get sick or are hungover the next day, but people often have difficulty doing this.

    I don’t think I ever felt “pleasantly buzzed” in a light way when I was young and binge drinked regularly. I did not feel much at all until drink number 5 or so.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    I'd get a pleasant permabuzz on Spring Break where we'd drink constantly but not in excess (until later in the week, which always ended memorably but not so pleasantly).

    I haven't been drunk now in twenty years, nor have any inclination to. Wine with meals, bourbon on special occasions, a beer here and there. Several ancestors were teetotalers, but we take after the German side. I remember being served (warm) beer for breakfast when visiting my grandparents' cousins back in the old country.
  77. anon • Disclaimer says:
    @biz
    When topics like this come up I always read/hear a lot of talk about all of the lonely middle aged spinsters who 'rode the cock carousel' too long until it was too late and now they are dried up, unmarried, childless, and alone.

    But the thing is if I reflect here in my mid 30s about all of the girls and women that I have ever known - from growing up, high school, college, my 20s, and beyond - basically every single one of them that I know anything about is married. It doesn't matter if they were major sluts or prudes, thin or fat, nice or a complete bitch, good personality or bad personality, rich or poor, career-oriented or not, virgin or pulled a train on spring break, or whatever else, every last one of them eventually, sooner or later, got married to some man or other. And most had kids.

    I'm not saying they are all necessarily happily married, and there are probably some divorces already and more in the making, but this idea of there being all of these hordes of never married middle aged women who "waited too long," well I just don't see it.

    So is my experience or those people I've had contact with in my life atypical? I will grant that I haven't had many acquaintances that would be in the working class or poor category since middle school, and have mostly no idea what those people are up to these days, but when it comes to the college-bound types that people tend to stereotype, I can say that in my sample almost no women end up unmarried.

    but this idea of there being all of these hordes of never married middle aged women who “waited too long,” well I just don’t see it.

    I’ve known quite a few in government careers: teacher, social worker, bureaucrat type jobs. They tend to be left of centre politically – as that tends to go with the feminism angle – so you may move in different circles.

    • Agree: Kylie
    • Replies: @biz
    Maybe, but my sample includes some liberals, teachers, women with advanced degrees, etc.
  78. Pulitzer Prize winning Historian (and confabulator), perhaps disappointed that Trump won, anticipates the day when Whites are a minority:

    http://www.cnn.com/2016/11/11/opinions/martin-luther-king-donald-trump-ellis-opinion/index.html

    • Replies: @Alec Leamas

    Pulitzer Prize winning Historian (and confabulator), perhaps disappointed that Trump won, anticipates the day when Whites are a minority:
     
    I suppose I expected more insight from a Professor of U.S. History than the SJW/Crybully take regurgitated from the pen of a 73 year old man.

    I wanted to comment that "Trump will deport all of the illegals, close the borders, limit immigration, reduce the support for welfare mothers and with the attrition due to the early deaths of blacks by violence and preventable diseases reverse the demographic decline of whites. MAGA" to see if I could get any bites. The point being to then ask why it is respectable to cheer the demographic decline of one group but not others.
  79. @Dave Pinsen
    Try a cup of coffee or an espresso at your crossroads next time.

    A single high-alcohol beer and and an episode of something entertaining is good enough for me these days. I stay away from the crossroads.

  80. @SFG
    Yes, I think you've hit the nail on the head. The lack of positive virtues modeled by the upper classes hits the lower classes harder. The upper middle class, with their 110 IQs and large salaries, can engage in polyamory, swinging, and wine tasting, but when the blue-collar types try it they'll wind up with baby mamas, gunfights, and cirrhosis.

    There was an article on this in National Review, ages ago. Anyone remember it?

    Polyamory/swinging is a weirdo thing; it’s emphatically not an upper-class thing.

    (Source: Have been upper-middle-class in the Boston area my whole life).

    • Replies: @anon
    staying politely married through private affairs, mistresses etc is an upper middle class thing

    if it goes public and blue collar copy then it's fights and blood everywhere
  81. @Yep
    That's pretty much the entire thesis of Charles Murray's book Coming Apart, but Murray says that the upper classes aren't engaging in this self destructive behavior but rather are shamed into not showing guidance to the lower classes by today's pc culture where you can never criticize anyone for anything.

    That’s pretty much the entire thesis of Charles Murray’s book Coming Apart, but Murray says that the upper classes aren’t engaging in this self destructive behavior but rather are shamed into not showing guidance to the lower classes by today’s pc culture where you can never criticize anyone for anything.

    If that’s his thesis, it’s completely wrong.

    The self-regarded upper classes mock and criticize the white lower classes incessantly. It’s sport for them. We just had an election where it was a decisive factor in the outcome.

    • Replies: @Yep
    But they're criticizing lower class whites for being racist, not for poor life choices.
    They definitely hate lower class white males but do you think they hate all lower class whites? How many articles have you read where single mothers are a big part of the Democrats constituency?

    The point is that upper class whites don't engage in the same destructive behaviors as lower class whites and part of the reason is because no one wants to tell any lower class people regardless of race to stop doing stupid shit.
    , @biz
    No, Murray is completely correct.

    The distinction is that, yes, the upper classes do currently mock/ criticize the lower classes, but the the way they do so is incomplete.

    Upper class people will freely criticize lower class diets, their weights, their tobacco use, some of their preferred entertainments, possibly their speech patterns, and in the case of lower class whites, their political outlook.

    However because of rigid feminist PC taboos, upper class people will not mock / criticize the main central determining central factor that actually keeps lower class people down: the breakdown of their family structure into babymomma babydaddy nonsense. There is nowadays no sense of noblesse oblige about communicating the importance of getting married to one person first, then having kids when financially able, then staying married, which as Murray points out is what upper class people are doing but treating like a closely guarded secret in order to make sure their own kids don't have any real competition in life. However the real reason is not even that level of enlightened self-interest, it is rather that PC dictates that single motherhood can never be criticized, and to the extent that it can be acknowledged as something less than optimal, it must be treated as an effect of poverty and crime rather than a cause.
    , @Forbes
    You've missed the distinction that Murray makes as between lifestyle and politics regarding upper class vs lower class.

    The route to staying out of poverty, and having a middle class (or better) lifestyle include some very simple rules that (Murray notes) the upper class does not promote, and does not criticize when it fails to appear: stay in school, graduate--from college, if so inclined; obtain full time employment; don't use drugs or commit crimes; get married before having children.

    The elite political critique expounded by the lapdog media and Hillary Clinton during the election was the ad hominem of "racist, sexist, misogynist, xenophobe, etc., etc."
  82. @Yep
    That's pretty much the entire thesis of Charles Murray's book Coming Apart, but Murray says that the upper classes aren't engaging in this self destructive behavior but rather are shamed into not showing guidance to the lower classes by today's pc culture where you can never criticize anyone for anything.

    today’s pc culture where you can never criticize anyone for anything

    I’m sure that sentence made a lot more sense when you were writing it.

    You are onto something, but I think you’re conflating two distinct phenomena.

    • Replies: @yep
    Here's the relevant passage from Murray's book:

    In today’s new upper class—what Toynbee would surely see as a dominant minority—the code that has taken its place is a set of mushy injunctions to be nice. Call it the code of ecumenical niceness. Children are supposed to share their toys, not hit one another, take turns … to be nice. And, by and large, the children of the new upper class grow up to be nice. But they are also taught that they should respect everyone else’s way of doing things, regardless of gender, race, sexual preference, cultural practices, or national origin, which leads to the crucial flaw in ecumenical niceness. The code of the dominant minority is supposed to set the standard for the society, but ecumenical niceness has a hold only on people whom the dominant minority is willing to judge—namely, one another. That’s what I mean by loss of self-confidence. The new upper class still does a good job of practicing some of the virtues, but it no longer preaches them. It has lost self-confidence in the rightness of its own customs and values, and preaches nonjudgmentalism instead.
     
    Obviously upper middle class white women are drinking more and that's probably setting a bad example for the lower classes, but my response was to a comment that said upper middle class people are engaged in a lot more self destructive behaviors than just drinking too much, specifically polyamory and swinging. Do you know a lot of upper middle class people who engage in swinging? Probably not. Maybe this Ross Douthat column explains it better:

    In upper class circles, liberal social values do not necessarily lead to libertinism among the people who hold them, and indeed quite often coexist with an impressive amount of personal conservatism, personal restraint
     
    http://douthat.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/01/29/social-liberalism-as-class-warfare/

    It'd be easier to answer these questions if the data was broken down by class and race.
  83. anon • Disclaimer says:

    The article mentions a lot of things but not which specific group is doing the dying.

    Given the media is owned by the people who benefit from cheap labor and off-shoring i’m going to guess this is deliberate which means it’s blue collar and the comments about college educated drinking is chaff fired off to distract.

    So female version of white death imo, same reason behind it as the men but more passively destructive with fewer dramatic suicides and less driving too fast.

    That’s not to say the other comments aren’t right vis a vis college women’s drinking habits – but if they were the ones actually dying from it the article would say so imo.

    economic warfare kills

    #

    on a completely separate point – *if* weakness to alcohol is inversely proportional to how many generations a population’s ancestors grew grains as their staple diet then black people should have that weakness

    but they don’t seem to (although my baseline is Glaswegians so I may have a false impression)

    if it’s true though – is it simply they prefer other drugs or do they have some alcohol resistance somehow?

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Africans have been drinking palm wine for quite a while, although whether hundreds of years or thousands of years I can't say.

    Mexicans had pulque before Columbus.

    I don't think North American Amerindians had an alcoholic beverage before 1492. It seems like they put a lot of interest into coming up with other psychoactive drugs to smoke and eat, perhaps because they didn't have alcohol to drink.

    , @res

    on a completely separate point – *if* weakness to alcohol is inversely proportional to how many generations a population’s ancestors grew grains as their staple diet then black people should have that weakness

    but they don’t seem to (although my baseline is Glaswegians so I may have a false impression)

    if it’s true though – is it simply they prefer other drugs or do they have some alcohol resistance somehow?
     
    I'm also curious about this. One of the most interesting thing about the FBI crime stats is that one of the few areas where blacks are represented at nearly equal rates to whites is alcohol related offences.
  84. @Lot
    I don't think I ever felt "pleasantly buzzed" in a light way when I was young and binge drinked regularly. I did not feel much at all until drink number 5 or so.

    I’d get a pleasant permabuzz on Spring Break where we’d drink constantly but not in excess (until later in the week, which always ended memorably but not so pleasantly).

    I haven’t been drunk now in twenty years, nor have any inclination to. Wine with meals, bourbon on special occasions, a beer here and there. Several ancestors were teetotalers, but we take after the German side. I remember being served (warm) beer for breakfast when visiting my grandparents’ cousins back in the old country.

  85. @snorlax
    Polyamory/swinging is a weirdo thing; it's emphatically not an upper-class thing.

    (Source: Have been upper-middle-class in the Boston area my whole life).

    staying politely married through private affairs, mistresses etc is an upper middle class thing

    if it goes public and blue collar copy then it’s fights and blood everywhere

  86. @The most deplorable one
    Pulitzer Prize winning Historian (and confabulator), perhaps disappointed that Trump won, anticipates the day when Whites are a minority:

    http://www.cnn.com/2016/11/11/opinions/martin-luther-king-donald-trump-ellis-opinion/index.html

    Pulitzer Prize winning Historian (and confabulator), perhaps disappointed that Trump won, anticipates the day when Whites are a minority:

    I suppose I expected more insight from a Professor of U.S. History than the SJW/Crybully take regurgitated from the pen of a 73 year old man.

    I wanted to comment that “Trump will deport all of the illegals, close the borders, limit immigration, reduce the support for welfare mothers and with the attrition due to the early deaths of blacks by violence and preventable diseases reverse the demographic decline of whites. MAGA” to see if I could get any bites. The point being to then ask why it is respectable to cheer the demographic decline of one group but not others.

    • Replies: @fnn
    SJWs are outraged they're now being called out (mainly from Breitbart) for celebrating white genocide:
    http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/12/28/george-ciccariello-maher-vs-the-white-power-alt-right/
  87. @biz
    When topics like this come up I always read/hear a lot of talk about all of the lonely middle aged spinsters who 'rode the cock carousel' too long until it was too late and now they are dried up, unmarried, childless, and alone.

    But the thing is if I reflect here in my mid 30s about all of the girls and women that I have ever known - from growing up, high school, college, my 20s, and beyond - basically every single one of them that I know anything about is married. It doesn't matter if they were major sluts or prudes, thin or fat, nice or a complete bitch, good personality or bad personality, rich or poor, career-oriented or not, virgin or pulled a train on spring break, or whatever else, every last one of them eventually, sooner or later, got married to some man or other. And most had kids.

    I'm not saying they are all necessarily happily married, and there are probably some divorces already and more in the making, but this idea of there being all of these hordes of never married middle aged women who "waited too long," well I just don't see it.

    So is my experience or those people I've had contact with in my life atypical? I will grant that I haven't had many acquaintances that would be in the working class or poor category since middle school, and have mostly no idea what those people are up to these days, but when it comes to the college-bound types that people tend to stereotype, I can say that in my sample almost no women end up unmarried.

    That’s my sense as well. The big deficit is missing out on the sort of personal development one enjoys from being married reasonably well at a young age. That and post-wall women tend to end up marrying less well than they would have had they struck while their iron was hotter. There are more spinsters now, but not that many more.

  88. @SFG
    Yes, I think you've hit the nail on the head. The lack of positive virtues modeled by the upper classes hits the lower classes harder. The upper middle class, with their 110 IQs and large salaries, can engage in polyamory, swinging, and wine tasting, but when the blue-collar types try it they'll wind up with baby mamas, gunfights, and cirrhosis.

    There was an article on this in National Review, ages ago. Anyone remember it?

    I recall John Derbyshire’s review of Life at the Bottom by Theodore Dalrymple.

    The New Criterion, January 2002

    “It is clear, however, that all the cant of our age, all the doctrines of moral and cultural relativism that seized hold of the educated classes in the years after WW2…have seeped down into the dull minds at the bottom of society, turning toxic in the process…Why should a low-IQ barely-literate youth believe in the doctrine of free will, when, for all he can see, his intellectual superiors have given up on it?”

    “…if there is a lesson to be drawn from Life at the Bottom, it is that a society’s choice is never between having an elite and not having one, it is always between having an elite with a sense of responsibility and a will to provide leadership, and having an elite with neither.”

    http://www.johnderbyshire.com/Reviews/Miscellaneous/lifeatthebottom.html

  89. @Stealth
    Good Lord, how can people get drunk so often? I'm in my late thirties, too, and up until about two years ago, I was a daily drinker, but the last time I got properly shit-faced was back in my twenties. I ended up spending the following day lying on a friend's bathroom floor because my nausea was so severe and persistent. It was the last time I said "never again."

    I guess this story also illustrates the loneliness of twenty-something life in America; despite the fact that I spent an entire Sunday vomiting at his house, the friend was actually just glad to have someone to talk to.

    I’ve had exactly the opposite experience. I’m in my mid thirties and my alcohol tolerance, which was always rather high to begin with, has, if anything, only increased with time. My metabolism has adjusted to derive a significant fraction of my daily caloric intake from ethanol. I put away quite a lot of brandy and scotch every night. I’m not overweight, still have a flat stomach, and I never feel nauseous or hungover. The last time I had a basic blood chemistry analysis, which was only about two months ago, my liver functioning was so perfect that it was almost scary, so no cirrhosis or fatty liver syndrome either.

    But I only drink at home, alone. I don’t go out and drink, which is both too expensive and it invites significant legal repercussions if you happen to get pulled over. Plus, the social scene is bleak and valueless. My drinking time is coextensive with the time I have to read, write, and think, which is all I really want to do when I’m not actually at work.

    I’ve also noticed that no matter how much I drink, I never actually get “drunk” anymore. At most I get groggy and fall into that state of hypnogogic semi-consciousness which is about the closest I ever come to sleep. Even after 750 mLs of the hard stuff, 4 or 5 hours of that and I’m ready to roll again.

    Sometimes I wish I had a more normal physiology, but heck, nothing else about my life is normal so why should that be? If you want to run cool, you got to run on heavy, heavy fuel.

    • Replies: @Anonymous Nephew
    "But I only drink at home, alone."

    Can't resist this ...


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0q8Oho_RjM
    , @Chrisnonymous
    I was in a similar situation a couple years ago--similar age and drinking a bottle of whisky almost every night, waking up the next morning none the worse, and no liver issues. I don't know how I got into that situation or out of it, but now my tolerance has gone down quite a lot. My intuition is that factors like stress and anxiety play a larger part in tolerance than people realize.
  90. @Yep
    That's pretty much the entire thesis of Charles Murray's book Coming Apart, but Murray says that the upper classes aren't engaging in this self destructive behavior but rather are shamed into not showing guidance to the lower classes by today's pc culture where you can never criticize anyone for anything.

    it’s also the thesis behind much of Theodore Dalrymple’s (who was a prison doctor in England) work: “Life at the Bottom”; “Spoilt Rotten”; and as to never being able to criticize anyone for anything (it’s definitely a thing), “In praise of Prejudice” and “Litter.”

  91. @Crawfurdmuir
    It would be interesting to break the group down by marital status. My hunch is that a lot of the women who are drinking themselves to death are embittered spinsters and divorcées, and the increase in their numbers is the fruit of feminism.

    A drunk 49 year-old doctor died when she jumped into her estranged engineer boyfriend’s chimney. He had refused to let her in his home when she went to talk to him. While she was trying to break open the back door with a shovel, he left by car unbeknownst to her and didn’t return home for several days. She then found and ladder and down the chimney she went. The house sitters came by a few days later and noticed fluid dribbling from the fireplace.

    Apparently lady doc was a lush and that help lead to the breakup with the boyfriend.

  92. The most recent studies I’ve seen suggest that few (if any) of the proposed health benefits of red wine are real, that men can be fine drinking a moderate amount of alcohol (a glass a day), and that for women any amount of alcohol is bad. Yeah, everybody but Mormons and Baptists wants the “red wine is health food” stories to be true, but they probably aren’t.

    It’s shocking the raw numbers of white women who have drinking problems. My guess is that at least part of it is caused by delayed marriage. Delayed marriage means more time spent doing single person things. A whole lot of “single person things” involve alcohol, and that means more chances of developing a habit.

    • Replies: @Alec Leamas

    The most recent studies I’ve seen suggest that few (if any) of the proposed health benefits of red wine are real,
     
    It was my understanding that the cardioprotective effects of ethyl alcohol consumption are real, while the health benefits specific to red wine (resveratrol) are more dubious in part because the volume of red wine consumed to receive the benefit would be impractical and dangerous.

    In cases such as these I find it most helpful to ignore the SCIENCE!1!!1!! hype and consider the fact that alcohol has been a part of Western food culture and society for a very long time and conclude that we're probably quite alright consuming it in reasonable amounts. Yeast occurs naturally in the air and settles on grains and grapes where it proliferates, waiting for an opportunity. Beer very well may have been one of the first foods made in civilization as a byproduct of bread-making. To paraphrase Ben Franklin, I take this as evidence that God loves us and wants us to be happy.

    There are those people who live on 400 calories a day and purport that they're extending their lives but a certain part of living is in the enjoyment of life so I'm not at all persuaded that trading six months or a year at the end for decades of good, jovial living would be worth it to me or most people in any event.
  93. @Hepp
    Everything about a woman's psychology and body has been shaped by evolution to be directed towards the creation and raising of children. Modern civilization has taken them away from that, and they've been brainwashed by gay men, lesbians, and the most masculine 1% of females to believe that they want to live like heterosexual men. The results have been disastrous.

    Absolutely correct on all fronts. It is fascinating that everything predicted by the Catholic Church that would happen to women and families once contraception and abortion became the norm has come true. And once you add “Feminism” into the mix – God save us all.

    I can say all this because I’m a woman, you’ll say. But I counter that you can say it too even if you are a man, because it is the truth.

    • Agree: Alec Leamas
  94. In all things, moderation is nowadays held to be an implicitly patriarchal construct when directed at women. So, binge drinking has become a badge of emancipation. Beyond the first few episodes, of course, binge drinking is alcoholism.

    My somewhat wild guess.

    • Replies: @Ivy
    Their emancipation is akin to a fat person taking off a corset. All that flab goes everywhere, and the muscle tone is lacking for support. There is a horrible period of adjustment to the newfound "freedom" as the body shifts and settles and new clothes are purchased for the Empress.

    As with other physical (and many mental) processes, with every action there is a reaction. The reaction may take the form of acting out, as some unconscious terror works its way through the emancipated psyche. Current adherents are experiencing a type of agoraphobia, fear of open spaces. Binge drinking is one way to try to cope, unsuccessfully, with all that latitude.
    , @Forbes
    In all things, everything is nowadays held to be an implicitely patriarchal construct when directed at women. So, most behavior, when rationalized this way, becomes a badge of emancipation.

    Fixed.
  95. @Wilkey
    The most recent studies I've seen suggest that few (if any) of the proposed health benefits of red wine are real, that men can be fine drinking a moderate amount of alcohol (a glass a day), and that for women any amount of alcohol is bad. Yeah, everybody but Mormons and Baptists wants the "red wine is health food" stories to be true, but they probably aren't.

    It's shocking the raw numbers of white women who have drinking problems. My guess is that at least part of it is caused by delayed marriage. Delayed marriage means more time spent doing single person things. A whole lot of "single person things" involve alcohol, and that means more chances of developing a habit.

    The most recent studies I’ve seen suggest that few (if any) of the proposed health benefits of red wine are real,

    It was my understanding that the cardioprotective effects of ethyl alcohol consumption are real, while the health benefits specific to red wine (resveratrol) are more dubious in part because the volume of red wine consumed to receive the benefit would be impractical and dangerous.

    In cases such as these I find it most helpful to ignore the SCIENCE!1!!1!! hype and consider the fact that alcohol has been a part of Western food culture and society for a very long time and conclude that we’re probably quite alright consuming it in reasonable amounts. Yeast occurs naturally in the air and settles on grains and grapes where it proliferates, waiting for an opportunity. Beer very well may have been one of the first foods made in civilization as a byproduct of bread-making. To paraphrase Ben Franklin, I take this as evidence that God loves us and wants us to be happy.

    There are those people who live on 400 calories a day and purport that they’re extending their lives but a certain part of living is in the enjoyment of life so I’m not at all persuaded that trading six months or a year at the end for decades of good, jovial living would be worth it to me or most people in any event.

  96. @anon
    The article mentions a lot of things but not which specific group is doing the dying.

    Given the media is owned by the people who benefit from cheap labor and off-shoring i'm going to guess this is deliberate which means it's blue collar and the comments about college educated drinking is chaff fired off to distract.

    So female version of white death imo, same reason behind it as the men but more passively destructive with fewer dramatic suicides and less driving too fast.

    That's not to say the other comments aren't right vis a vis college women's drinking habits - but if they were the ones actually dying from it the article would say so imo.

    economic warfare kills

    #

    on a completely separate point - *if* weakness to alcohol is inversely proportional to how many generations a population's ancestors grew grains as their staple diet then black people should have that weakness

    but they don't seem to (although my baseline is Glaswegians so I may have a false impression)

    if it's true though - is it simply they prefer other drugs or do they have some alcohol resistance somehow?

    Africans have been drinking palm wine for quite a while, although whether hundreds of years or thousands of years I can’t say.

    Mexicans had pulque before Columbus.

    I don’t think North American Amerindians had an alcoholic beverage before 1492. It seems like they put a lot of interest into coming up with other psychoactive drugs to smoke and eat, perhaps because they didn’t have alcohol to drink.

    • Replies: @The Anti-Gnostic
    This has led me to wonder if marijuana and other non-refined drugs should be legalized, for the sake of Amerindians who haven't had time to evolve any defenses against alcoholism.

    OTOH, American blacks smoke lots of weed and it doesn't seem to reduce their dysfunction at all.
  97. Life can be pretty stressful for a middle age married woman. Small or teenage kids, trying to move up in the workplace, mortgage, aging parents and in laws, etc. And that lasts a long time and can be very draining.

    • Replies: @Forbes
    But, but, but...I thought women could "have it all"... Do you mean that the dream of "having it all" is actually a nightmare??
  98. @Desiderius

    today’s pc culture where you can never criticize anyone for anything
     
    I'm sure that sentence made a lot more sense when you were writing it.

    You are onto something, but I think you're conflating two distinct phenomena.

    Here’s the relevant passage from Murray’s book:

    In today’s new upper class—what Toynbee would surely see as a dominant minority—the code that has taken its place is a set of mushy injunctions to be nice. Call it the code of ecumenical niceness. Children are supposed to share their toys, not hit one another, take turns … to be nice. And, by and large, the children of the new upper class grow up to be nice. But they are also taught that they should respect everyone else’s way of doing things, regardless of gender, race, sexual preference, cultural practices, or national origin, which leads to the crucial flaw in ecumenical niceness. The code of the dominant minority is supposed to set the standard for the society, but ecumenical niceness has a hold only on people whom the dominant minority is willing to judge—namely, one another. That’s what I mean by loss of self-confidence. The new upper class still does a good job of practicing some of the virtues, but it no longer preaches them. It has lost self-confidence in the rightness of its own customs and values, and preaches nonjudgmentalism instead.

    Obviously upper middle class white women are drinking more and that’s probably setting a bad example for the lower classes, but my response was to a comment that said upper middle class people are engaged in a lot more self destructive behaviors than just drinking too much, specifically polyamory and swinging. Do you know a lot of upper middle class people who engage in swinging? Probably not. Maybe this Ross Douthat column explains it better:

    In upper class circles, liberal social values do not necessarily lead to libertinism among the people who hold them, and indeed quite often coexist with an impressive amount of personal conservatism, personal restraint

    http://douthat.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/01/29/social-liberalism-as-class-warfare/

    It’d be easier to answer these questions if the data was broken down by class and race.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    No I agree with what you (and Murray, and Douthat) are saying, it's just that pc is a whole different thing.

    PC culture are the weeds that have grown up in the abandoned lot where traditional morality once stood before is was leveled by the sophomoric non-judgmentalism of Niceanity.

    Nor was that process entirely innocent either. Convincing the Joneses to be whores and drunks makes them a lot easier to keep up with. Status anxiety is a big driver.
  99. The complaint by the feminist woman about alcohol. Where to begin? Rage at lower class men ogling her? That her workplace is not fairy dust and unicorn farts? That everything in life is not arranged to her satisfaction?

    This I think is the result of Daddy’s Girl being spoiled all her life. It used to be that even Upper Class got the brutal talk by their mothers, with Daddy being a nice but distant part of their life. The Talk included limitations by Father Time on their beauty, ability to bear children, and attract the best man. That once married, they could not turn back time like Cher (and get another butt tattoo) to when they were nineteen. Women knew the score by the time they were seventeen or so; their mothers made sure they knew it as a matter of survival. Even middle class girls were quickly burdened by responsibilities — when married they had to help run the business or practice of their husbands, while keeping house and looking after the kids. It wasn’t easy but that was life.

    Spoiled, lazy, angry at fading beauty, and not being beautiful enough (that line about lower class “janitors” and “drunks on the street” ogling her was a huge tell) — yeah no wonder Daddy’s little Princess who was not an actual Princess, drank too much. See Hillary Clinton, it seems if you believe Wikileaks. Drunk at 4:30 pm. This seems to be part of much of the White female professional class. Most real beauties don’t drink too much — bad for the complexion.

    About 98% of women’s rage, issues, drinking etc. are related to not being beautiful enough. Its rare that a Victoria’s Secret Model has that problem. Carrie Fisher — cute but not beautiful and not secure enough in her apparently considerable script-rewriting skills to just leverage off that and settle for the best man she could get in her early twenties is a good example though a sad one.

    One thing stands out in the graph. Asian women hardly drink at all and they have remained the same in alcohol related deaths since 1999. Hispanic women only a bit more. Black women declined for much of the time, from a higher point than White women in 1999. Now White women are the only group to INCREASE and at that, significantly, from 1999 levels, absent a small uptick for Black women very late in the time period. Why are a lot more White women dying from booze-related issues than Black women in 1999?

    For me its the aging of the spoiled cohort that drinks away the lack of fantasy life they had always imagined — being the star, center of attention, beautiful, with the hot, dominant Alpha guy, and fabulous famous lifestyle. That’s Daddy’s Girl raised to the nth degree and we are seeing the fallout.

    • Agree: Kylie
    • Replies: @Forbes
    I've said for three+ decades, the problem with most women--these Daddy's Girls, these princesses--is their father, and I know plenty of these fathers. They indulge their daughter's fantasies, no expenses spared, and rather than encouraging their settling down, they tell their daughters they can "do better." It's as if they were coaching the son they didn't have in his mating strategy.
    , @BB753
    I never thought I'd ever agree with you, Whiskey, but you've nailed it. Weak daddies raise sluts, everytime.
  100. @Alec Leamas

    That’s pretty much the entire thesis of Charles Murray’s book Coming Apart, but Murray says that the upper classes aren’t engaging in this self destructive behavior but rather are shamed into not showing guidance to the lower classes by today’s pc culture where you can never criticize anyone for anything.
     
    If that's his thesis, it's completely wrong.

    The self-regarded upper classes mock and criticize the white lower classes incessantly. It's sport for them. We just had an election where it was a decisive factor in the outcome.

    But they’re criticizing lower class whites for being racist, not for poor life choices.
    They definitely hate lower class white males but do you think they hate all lower class whites? How many articles have you read where single mothers are a big part of the Democrats constituency?

    The point is that upper class whites don’t engage in the same destructive behaviors as lower class whites and part of the reason is because no one wants to tell any lower class people regardless of race to stop doing stupid shit.

    • Replies: @Alec Leamas

    But they’re criticizing lower class whites for being racist, not for poor life choices.
    They definitely hate lower class white males but do you think they hate all lower class whites? How many articles have you read where single mothers are a big part of the Democrats constituency?
     
    Are you completely unaware of Here Comes Honey Boo-Boo?

    The mockery isn't of purported racism only (which is an ephemeral, forever changing game of Calvinball), but their weight and diet, lack of education, low incomes, hobbies, pastimes, religion, culturally conservative outlook, and so on. They're mocked for both their attempts to make good, clean life choices and their failure to successfully achieve the desired outcomes. (In reality, a lot of the mockery of downscale whites particularly in the South revolves around State statistics without acknowledging that these states have the highest black populations).
  101. Rising death rates due to alcohol, drugs, homicide and suicide maybe a reality but is it a problem? Given this nations debt and fiscal problems a decreasing lifespan and a culling of the least productive maybe the only solution. The last thing we need is more 80 plus year old low income senior citizens with their heavy medical, pension and subsidized housing requirements.

    • Replies: @Alec Leamas

    Rising death rates due to alcohol, drugs, homicide and suicide maybe a reality but is it a problem?
     
    Yes.

    These are symptoms of a society and government that isn't functioning properly for its members/citizens. Just because grinding them up to make Soylent would be most efficient doesn't mean it's right or desirable.
  102. @syonredux

    Convenient of Carrie Fisher to die the same day this came out, as illustration of the phenomenon.
     
    It's funny. Internet "Feminists" attacked people for commenting on Carrie Fisher's voice and appearance in Force Awakens . They ascribed the comments to sexist attitudes ("Women aren't allowed to age," etc). In reality, the comments stemmed from how drugs and alcohol had ravaged her body.

    When we saw Princess Leia in The Force Awakens, we were not simply looking at an older version of the girl that we saw in A New Hope; we were looking at a Leia who bore the stigmata of addiction....And no one wanted that for Leia....

    It’s kind of how Spock in the movies is a really really old looking young Vulcan. If the human characters have aged 30 years since TOS, the Vulcan should look much the same, since canonically thy live roughly 160-200 Earth years.

  103. @Yep
    But they're criticizing lower class whites for being racist, not for poor life choices.
    They definitely hate lower class white males but do you think they hate all lower class whites? How many articles have you read where single mothers are a big part of the Democrats constituency?

    The point is that upper class whites don't engage in the same destructive behaviors as lower class whites and part of the reason is because no one wants to tell any lower class people regardless of race to stop doing stupid shit.

    But they’re criticizing lower class whites for being racist, not for poor life choices.
    They definitely hate lower class white males but do you think they hate all lower class whites? How many articles have you read where single mothers are a big part of the Democrats constituency?

    Are you completely unaware of Here Comes Honey Boo-Boo?

    The mockery isn’t of purported racism only (which is an ephemeral, forever changing game of Calvinball), but their weight and diet, lack of education, low incomes, hobbies, pastimes, religion, culturally conservative outlook, and so on. They’re mocked for both their attempts to make good, clean life choices and their failure to successfully achieve the desired outcomes. (In reality, a lot of the mockery of downscale whites particularly in the South revolves around State statistics without acknowledging that these states have the highest black populations).

    • Replies: @snorlax
    To be a bit un-PC, the target audience for a show like Honey Boo Boo is white trash, whose self-confidence is boosted by being able to think of themselves as not white trash, compared with the people in the show.

    Here in liberal elitist Massachusetts I don't think I know anyone who'd be caught dead watching HBB, or who'd even have any desire to watch such a show.

    Indeed, just as I expected, Facebook searches for my friends who like Here Comes Honey Boo Boo and my friends who like Toddlers & Tiaras return no one.

  104. @unit472
    Rising death rates due to alcohol, drugs, homicide and suicide maybe a reality but is it a problem? Given this nations debt and fiscal problems a decreasing lifespan and a culling of the least productive maybe the only solution. The last thing we need is more 80 plus year old low income senior citizens with their heavy medical, pension and subsidized housing requirements.

    Rising death rates due to alcohol, drugs, homicide and suicide maybe a reality but is it a problem?

    Yes.

    These are symptoms of a society and government that isn’t functioning properly for its members/citizens. Just because grinding them up to make Soylent would be most efficient doesn’t mean it’s right or desirable.

  105. The comments here about women drinking more wine is giving me an aversion to it. Beer is still OK by me. Wine is out and same for liquor which I have not had a shot of for months. A childless relative died recently leaving an estate of five million. Died at 62. Smoked and drank too much but worked hard until her last few months. IOW she was a very functional alkie. Heterosexual if you are curious.

  106. “There is one consideration which I would earnestly recommend to all my female readers, and which, I hope, will have some weight with them. In short, it is this, that there is nothing so bad for the face as party-zeal. It gives an ill-natured cast to the eye, and a disagreeable sourness to the look; besides, that it makes the lines too strong, and flushes them worse than brandy. I have seen a woman’s face break out in heats, as she has been talking against a great lord, whom she had never seen in her life; and indeed never knew a party woman that kept her beauty for a twelve-month. I would therefore advise all my female readers, as they value their complexions, to let alone all disputes of this nature; though, at the same time, I would give free liberty to all superannuated motherly partisans to be as violent as they please, since there will be no danger either of their spoiling their faces, or of their gaining converts.

    For my part, I think a man makes an odious and despicable figure, that is violent in a party; but a woman is too sincere to mitigate the fury of her principles with temper and discretion, and to act with that caution and reservedness which are requisite of our sex. When this unnatural zeal gets into them, it throws them into ten thousand heats and extravagances; their generous souls set no bounds to their love or to their hatred; and whether a Whig or a Tory, a lap-dog or a gallant, an opera or a puppet-show be the whole object of it, the passion, while it reigns, engrosses the whole woman.”

    Addison, Spectator No. 57

  107. @yep
    Here's the relevant passage from Murray's book:

    In today’s new upper class—what Toynbee would surely see as a dominant minority—the code that has taken its place is a set of mushy injunctions to be nice. Call it the code of ecumenical niceness. Children are supposed to share their toys, not hit one another, take turns … to be nice. And, by and large, the children of the new upper class grow up to be nice. But they are also taught that they should respect everyone else’s way of doing things, regardless of gender, race, sexual preference, cultural practices, or national origin, which leads to the crucial flaw in ecumenical niceness. The code of the dominant minority is supposed to set the standard for the society, but ecumenical niceness has a hold only on people whom the dominant minority is willing to judge—namely, one another. That’s what I mean by loss of self-confidence. The new upper class still does a good job of practicing some of the virtues, but it no longer preaches them. It has lost self-confidence in the rightness of its own customs and values, and preaches nonjudgmentalism instead.
     
    Obviously upper middle class white women are drinking more and that's probably setting a bad example for the lower classes, but my response was to a comment that said upper middle class people are engaged in a lot more self destructive behaviors than just drinking too much, specifically polyamory and swinging. Do you know a lot of upper middle class people who engage in swinging? Probably not. Maybe this Ross Douthat column explains it better:

    In upper class circles, liberal social values do not necessarily lead to libertinism among the people who hold them, and indeed quite often coexist with an impressive amount of personal conservatism, personal restraint
     
    http://douthat.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/01/29/social-liberalism-as-class-warfare/

    It'd be easier to answer these questions if the data was broken down by class and race.

    No I agree with what you (and Murray, and Douthat) are saying, it’s just that pc is a whole different thing.

    PC culture are the weeds that have grown up in the abandoned lot where traditional morality once stood before is was leveled by the sophomoric non-judgmentalism of Niceanity.

    Nor was that process entirely innocent either. Convincing the Joneses to be whores and drunks makes them a lot easier to keep up with. Status anxiety is a big driver.

  108. “White Women Drinking Themselves to Death”

    Hopefully is is the white women who voted for Hillary. They are anti-white anyway.

  109. @John Mansfield
    Convenient of Carrie Fisher to die the same day this came out, as illustration of the phenomenon.

    Don-dissing diva drops dead.

    “I will not live in Trump’s America.”

    OK.

  110. @Intelligent Dasein
    I've had exactly the opposite experience. I'm in my mid thirties and my alcohol tolerance, which was always rather high to begin with, has, if anything, only increased with time. My metabolism has adjusted to derive a significant fraction of my daily caloric intake from ethanol. I put away quite a lot of brandy and scotch every night. I'm not overweight, still have a flat stomach, and I never feel nauseous or hungover. The last time I had a basic blood chemistry analysis, which was only about two months ago, my liver functioning was so perfect that it was almost scary, so no cirrhosis or fatty liver syndrome either.

    But I only drink at home, alone. I don't go out and drink, which is both too expensive and it invites significant legal repercussions if you happen to get pulled over. Plus, the social scene is bleak and valueless. My drinking time is coextensive with the time I have to read, write, and think, which is all I really want to do when I'm not actually at work.

    I've also noticed that no matter how much I drink, I never actually get "drunk" anymore. At most I get groggy and fall into that state of hypnogogic semi-consciousness which is about the closest I ever come to sleep. Even after 750 mLs of the hard stuff, 4 or 5 hours of that and I'm ready to roll again.

    Sometimes I wish I had a more normal physiology, but heck, nothing else about my life is normal so why should that be? If you want to run cool, you got to run on heavy, heavy fuel.

    “But I only drink at home, alone.”

    Can’t resist this …

  111. I was waiting for the occasion to post this!

    Misato Katsuragi, 29, operations director of NERV (rank of captain), drinking her Yebisu can in the fricking morning:

    • Replies: @Alice
    I love you.

    What could be better than lonely, bitter Misato?
  112. @Alec Leamas

    But they’re criticizing lower class whites for being racist, not for poor life choices.
    They definitely hate lower class white males but do you think they hate all lower class whites? How many articles have you read where single mothers are a big part of the Democrats constituency?
     
    Are you completely unaware of Here Comes Honey Boo-Boo?

    The mockery isn't of purported racism only (which is an ephemeral, forever changing game of Calvinball), but their weight and diet, lack of education, low incomes, hobbies, pastimes, religion, culturally conservative outlook, and so on. They're mocked for both their attempts to make good, clean life choices and their failure to successfully achieve the desired outcomes. (In reality, a lot of the mockery of downscale whites particularly in the South revolves around State statistics without acknowledging that these states have the highest black populations).

    To be a bit un-PC, the target audience for a show like Honey Boo Boo is white trash, whose self-confidence is boosted by being able to think of themselves as not white trash, compared with the people in the show.

    Here in liberal elitist Massachusetts I don’t think I know anyone who’d be caught dead watching HBB, or who’d even have any desire to watch such a show.

    Indeed, just as I expected, Facebook searches for my friends who like Here Comes Honey Boo Boo and my friends who like Toddlers & Tiaras return no one.

    • Replies: @27 year old
    Disagree. I think the show was meant for younger Whites in college/post college to cringe-watch and feel superior and be snarky about.

    I do think lower income Whites have a lot of insecurity about whether or not they are "White Trash" but that insecurity is mostly a Northeast and Rust Belt thing. I think the "real" White Trash ie southern/Appalachian Whites tend to think hell yeah I am White Trash and proud of it

    , @Alec Leamas

    To be a bit un-PC, the target audience for a show like Honey Boo Boo is white trash, whose self-confidence is boosted by being able to think of themselves as not white trash, compared with the people in the show.
     
    Who do you think the producers and executives who conceived this show are?
    , @Brutusale
    The local publications like to riff on the all-around brilliance of "liberal, elite" Massachusetts, especially when test scores come out. I always ask how anyone can spend so much time extolling their own brilliance when they elect the likes of Lurch and Fauxcahontas to the Senate.
  113. @Anonymous

    This is interesting since I think people used to drink way more than they do now. My Grandmother and aunts drank whiskey and whiskey highballs and made it into their late nineties. Fraternal organizations, drinking and driving not being such a big deal, etc.

    I wonder if the real culprit here is the contraindication of their prescription medications with alcohol? The percentage of suburban women on some form of prescription medications for anxiety/mood elevation/sleep regulation is staggering. They’re mixing their drugs with alcohol and magnifying the effects while doing enormous organ damage.
     

    Yeah, interesting. My mom and all her friends were heavy drinkers. I'd say my mom would down a six-pack per night. Her girlfriends would get smashed on hard liquor a few times a week. My mom is still alive going on 90 but all of her friends died in their 50's and 60's from cancer. Never from alcohol abuse. They were all huge smokers. I wonder if smoking cigarettes mitigated the effects of alcohol?

    Flight of ideas.

    I watched Hitchcock’s “The Birds” last night. All the women smoking* all the time.

    The Birds was released in 1963. Watch the first 10 minutes and be depressed at what you have lost. See San Francisco early 60′s. I despair for you. Have a drink or two, maybe some oxycontin, heroin.

    How things have changed for Koreans.
    From The Birds:

    Socialite Melanie Daniels(Tippi Hedren): We’re sending a little Korean boy through school. We actually raise money for it.

    I assume they’d be raising money for kids in the non-commie south or maybe a refugee to the States. Either way both groups far from charity cases now.

    * Hoping hard-core open-borders multiculturalism goes the way of the cigarette. Pushed by corrupt big business, normalised, associated with glamour, vigour but very harmful for the community.

  114. @Hepp
    Everything about a woman's psychology and body has been shaped by evolution to be directed towards the creation and raising of children. Modern civilization has taken them away from that, and they've been brainwashed by gay men, lesbians, and the most masculine 1% of females to believe that they want to live like heterosexual men. The results have been disastrous.

    Mostly women don’t have kids because its too expensive, jobs are not longterm/stable /secure, partner’s don’t stay like they used too and we still earn less while being left to juggle children with work.

    Dont again blame us, or call us brainwashed!! We carry the load.
    For a system so tilted towards not having children.
    If you want women to have more children give them equal pay with free and reliable child care up to children being old enough to look after them selves. so that women can progress in their career so they can be financially secure (which is really what this whole issue comes down to – security and independence)

    And yes you notice generally women hate the idea of handouts to the point we would rather sacrifice having children altogether

    • Replies: @Hepp

    Mostly women don’t have kids because its too expensive, jobs are not longterm/stable /secure, partner’s don’t stay like they used too and we still earn less while being left to juggle children with work.

    Dont again blame us, or call us brainwashed!! We carry the load.
     
    I guess Niger and Afghanistan must have the best economies in the world, while Japan and South Korea must have the worst.

    If you want women to have more children give them equal pay with free and reliable child care up to children being old enough to look after them selves. so that women can progress in their career so they can be financially secure (which is really what this whole issue comes down to – security and independence)
     
    Yet every generation in human history reproduced itself without those things. Women even reproduced when the chances of death from pregnancy were pretty high. Yet you won't have kids because there isn't enough of a welfare state? Because you might go from being a high middle class American to a low middle class American? Oh the horrors! Going from the 99.99th percentile of living standards across human history to the 99.98th percentile!

    I don't want to hear it.
    , @Formerly CARealist
    This sounds pretty dispiriting and I hope it doesn't reflect your life. Give up the rat race, settle down and respect a husband, have a couple kids and enjoy raising them.

    Remember, joy and love are real. Don't turn your back on them.
    , @Daniel Chieh

    And yes you notice generally women hate the idea of handouts to the point we would rather sacrifice having children altogether
     
    Its interesting that you deplore the idea of handouts while asking for them in the form of government intervention and/or subsidy.

    From a statistical perspective, increased funding for child support programs have not increased birth rates in North European countries. Traditional families are pretty much the most consistent indicator of increased number of children.

    From my conservative perspective, this also misses the point, as increasing careerism in women isn't actually helping preserve anything which remains of the concept of family. Having children and handing it off for others to take care of is essentially losing a large part of the point of motherhood.

    Taken to its natural extreme, Maoist China experimented with this concept and declared state ownership of children. Because, as they noted logically, children were spending more time with the school than their parents, so why not just have the state own them?

    It didn't work out very well, incidentally. There's a reason why Maoist China is no more. Occasionally some CCP member still trots out the idea, but I'm pretty sure as crazy ideas go now, there are probably slightly more CCP members supporting the restoration of Confucius' family to political power than abolishing the family as a concept.

    Fundamentally, the notion of atomistic individuality is ultimately disturbing - and should be disturbing to everyone. For all of the notions of "independence", there's something fundamentally tragic, I think, about converting humans into identical grey economic units separated from each other, so that we can all have the independence to work for meaningless material symbols and die for meaningless lack of purpose.

    , @Opinionator
    So that women can progress in their career so they can be financially secure (which is really what this whole issue comes down to – security and independence)

    Wrong. This whole thing comes down to women not being able to obtain a commitment from a man.
  115. @Alec Leamas

    Pulitzer Prize winning Historian (and confabulator), perhaps disappointed that Trump won, anticipates the day when Whites are a minority:
     
    I suppose I expected more insight from a Professor of U.S. History than the SJW/Crybully take regurgitated from the pen of a 73 year old man.

    I wanted to comment that "Trump will deport all of the illegals, close the borders, limit immigration, reduce the support for welfare mothers and with the attrition due to the early deaths of blacks by violence and preventable diseases reverse the demographic decline of whites. MAGA" to see if I could get any bites. The point being to then ask why it is respectable to cheer the demographic decline of one group but not others.

    SJWs are outraged they’re now being called out (mainly from Breitbart) for celebrating white genocide:

    http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/12/28/george-ciccariello-maher-vs-the-white-power-alt-right/

  116. @Dave Pinsen
    Sure, she's angry, but an insight there is how alcohol, and wine, in particular, has been pushed on and by women recently.

    Left unsaid is that lots of these women are probably also on psychiatric meds that may react poorly with alcohol.

    A meta point about this that's also true of opiates: We're not all prone to addiction. I like that my local Whole Foods stocks wine and beer next to foods they pair well with (if anything, it leads to me buying more of the food than the liquor), but it's not going to make me drink more than I would otherwise.

    “Sure, she’s angry, but an insight there is how alcohol, and wine, in particular, has been pushed on and by women recently.

    “Left unsaid is that lots of these women are probably also on psychiatric meds that may react poorly with alcohol.”

    She describes a bizarre world indeed. She has a talent for writing, but I’ll be damned if it isn’t some of the most irritatingly stressful writing that I’ve ever read. She does to Erma Bombeck what the creators of the Hitchhiker’s Guide to The Galaxy movie did to Douglas Adams. And I couldn’t help but note the irony of a pregnant woman abstaining from drinking alcohol while attending a baby shower in the Bhopal-like environment of a nail parlor.

  117. @whorefinder
    The Facebook/Instagram/Reality TV age has only worsened the effect of feminism.

    Now, not only are they pressured in-group and by academics to hook up, not wait, sleep around, and focus on career, but now if they dress promiscuously and act hedonisticly and post their exploits online, they will receive a million "likes" and positive comments from random strangers on how "hot" they look/"you go girl!", further encouraging them to act promiscuously and like attention-hos, and thereby discouraging them from settling down and being mothers.

    And then she watches Reality TV, and sees women rewarded for hooking up, one night stands, catfighting, dressing sluttily, sex tapes, divorcing, etc. (Kim Kardashian, Paris Hilton, etc.) These only further her desire not to be a staid housewife and mother.

    The female desire for attention from as many people as possible is immense, and men repeatedly underestimate it. It is a flip side of female insecurity. Yes, men like attention too, but not at the same level females like/need it; it is a gnawing hunger in women. The female insecurity/desire for attention is like the male sex drive: the opposite sex desires the same thing, but will never understand just how badly the other side desires it more.

    Thanks for so well articulating something that I’ve often noticed. There is an almost perfect symmetry between the human female’s desire for attention/care and the human male’s desire for sex/physical contact.

    I first noticed this when I was regularly babysitting my five-year-old nephew at a local playground. If any boys were present they’d spontaneously form a playgroup. If girls were present they’d position themselves near my nephew or any other available boys and engage in attention getting behavior until they boy(s) noticed and/or interacted with them.

    I’ve since observed this female behavior in other playground settings, and among adults on beaches, in bars, at various waiting stations in airports, train terminals, etc. The early age of onset and universality of this behavior suggests to me that it’s a genetically programmed feature of human females.

    If only I’d psyched out this female need in my youth, I’d easily have been able to satisfy my genetically programmed lust.

  118. @Steve Sailer
    Africans have been drinking palm wine for quite a while, although whether hundreds of years or thousands of years I can't say.

    Mexicans had pulque before Columbus.

    I don't think North American Amerindians had an alcoholic beverage before 1492. It seems like they put a lot of interest into coming up with other psychoactive drugs to smoke and eat, perhaps because they didn't have alcohol to drink.

    This has led me to wonder if marijuana and other non-refined drugs should be legalized, for the sake of Amerindians who haven’t had time to evolve any defenses against alcoholism.

    OTOH, American blacks smoke lots of weed and it doesn’t seem to reduce their dysfunction at all.

    • Replies: @Alec Leamas

    This has led me to wonder if marijuana and other non-refined drugs should be legalized, for the sake of Amerindians who haven’t had time to evolve any defenses against alcoholism.
     
    I think the DOJ has essentially allowed the reservations free reign with marijuana.

    http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-marijuana-indians-20141211-story.html
    , @Steve Sailer
    Blacks are less dysfunctional in 2016 smoking a lot of weed than in 1991 smoking a lot of crack.
  119. @Anonymous
    Yeah, most 60 year old women don't look as old as she did. She looked like she was pushing 80. The drugs and alcohol really seemed to have aged her by 25 years or so.

    And Debbie Reynolds is still alive at 84.

    • Replies: @Njguy73

    And Debbie Reynolds is still alive at 84.
     
    http://www.msn.com/en-us/entertainment/celebrity/debbie-reynolds-rushed-to-hospital-one-day-after-daughter-carrie-fisher%E2%80%99s-death-report/ar-BBxF8FH?li=BBnbfcL
  120. @Alec Leamas

    Convenient of Carrie Fisher to die the same day this came out, as illustration of the phenomenon.
     
    If her heart had had an odometer, it would have read 98 years. Cocaine is a hell of a drug.

    Let alone the 16 cokes she drank everyday. Addictive personality to the end.

    • Replies: @Njguy73

    Let alone the 16 cokes she drank everyday.

     

    Yes, it's true.

    http://rare.us/story/watch-carrie-fisher-open-up-about-her-affair-with-harrison-ford-and-her-love-for-coca-cola-on-ellen/

    And we guys should heed the warning set by the life of former MLB ptcher Denny McLain.

    Cy Young and MVP winner, World Series champ, played the organ in Vegas shows.

    Also drank 24 bottles of Pepsi a day.

    And got involved with bookies, did two years for cocaine trafficking, and did another seven years for embezzling from a meat-packer's pension fund.

    http://sabr.org/bioproj/person/6bddedd4

    Singing in perfect harmony, indeed.
  121. @anon

    but this idea of there being all of these hordes of never married middle aged women who “waited too long,” well I just don’t see it.
     
    I've known quite a few in government careers: teacher, social worker, bureaucrat type jobs. They tend to be left of centre politically - as that tends to go with the feminism angle - so you may move in different circles.

    Maybe, but my sample includes some liberals, teachers, women with advanced degrees, etc.

  122. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    I wonder what the correlation is between this and obesity rate, both of which could be viewed as signs of demoralization, of a person just giving up. I imagine the rate of alcohol-caused premature death is actually higher since the chart only goes up to age 54 whereas it might really kick in in the late 50′s-early 60′s. The popular culture emphasizes shallow things, making women feel they’re in some sort of looks contest. It’s a constant theme, this valuation of women based on their looks. Age is age and it’s impossible to keep up looks-wise with the up and comers. Also, by age 50 many women have been in the workforce for perhaps 25 years and have come to see it all as just a bunch of meaningless crap with no way to bail out. They’re serving a life sentence and any fantasy of a billionaire prince coming along to rescue them has evaporated. There’s not a whole lot out there for them anymore and things can’t improve, only get worse. All that’s left for many is gushing over how good some fabulous food tastes and being involved in animal rescue. There’s not much to live for anymore, many may feel. What surprises me is how low the rate actually is. I’d think 10-20% of the population of both genders would kick off from boozing and pill-popping.

  123. Turns out being a modern, independent woman isn’t the cure-all it was touted as? I’d guess that more than half of American women are on anti-depressants as well, my mother has never drank a drop, but is on probably five prescriptions.

    • Replies: @BB753
    The problem with anti-depressants is that we don't know yet what side effects they might have over the long run. My impression is that some drugs might work for some people, but for other people they make them more depressed or even neurotic.
  124. @Alec Leamas

    That’s pretty much the entire thesis of Charles Murray’s book Coming Apart, but Murray says that the upper classes aren’t engaging in this self destructive behavior but rather are shamed into not showing guidance to the lower classes by today’s pc culture where you can never criticize anyone for anything.
     
    If that's his thesis, it's completely wrong.

    The self-regarded upper classes mock and criticize the white lower classes incessantly. It's sport for them. We just had an election where it was a decisive factor in the outcome.

    No, Murray is completely correct.

    The distinction is that, yes, the upper classes do currently mock/ criticize the lower classes, but the the way they do so is incomplete.

    Upper class people will freely criticize lower class diets, their weights, their tobacco use, some of their preferred entertainments, possibly their speech patterns, and in the case of lower class whites, their political outlook.

    However because of rigid feminist PC taboos, upper class people will not mock / criticize the main central determining central factor that actually keeps lower class people down: the breakdown of their family structure into babymomma babydaddy nonsense. There is nowadays no sense of noblesse oblige about communicating the importance of getting married to one person first, then having kids when financially able, then staying married, which as Murray points out is what upper class people are doing but treating like a closely guarded secret in order to make sure their own kids don’t have any real competition in life. However the real reason is not even that level of enlightened self-interest, it is rather that PC dictates that single motherhood can never be criticized, and to the extent that it can be acknowledged as something less than optimal, it must be treated as an effect of poverty and crime rather than a cause.

    • Replies: @Bill P
    Real upper class people - the mega-wealthy - behave as they please, and can be almost as trashy as underclass whites. What Murray is talking about is the upper middle class; the high professionals like successful physicians, attorneys and academics.

    These people look down on poorer whites, but they also prey on them. They have internalized something like an ethnic outgroup contempt for their victims. The amount of harm done to the American family and society in general by these types over the last few decades is stupefying. It's a wonder we can still get by.

    Attorneys and judges enable and prosper from other people's misery, and then turn around and say something like "these people are morally deficient." They are worse than pimps precisely because of their stunning hypocrisy and their tendency to dress up the instruments of dispossession, such as court-enforced feminism, as "humanitarian" and "progressive."

    Even Murray gets in on it. He goes on and on about how lousy the men in Fishtown are without once stopping to wonder how many of the congregants at his fancy church are making a living putting these men in exactly this position. How many blue collar men earning good wages and working hard manage to keep their marriages intact? Not many. And then that decent pay gets spread three ways: one for babymomma, one for the asshole lawyer, and whatever's left for the working man. Why on earth would Fishtown boys step up to the plate and get married under that regime?

    Something has to be done about the complete and utter moral depravity of our predatory professional class long before we can even think about addressing the faults of hapless underclass whites, who are the least part of the problem.
  125. @Hepp
    Everything about a woman's psychology and body has been shaped by evolution to be directed towards the creation and raising of children. Modern civilization has taken them away from that, and they've been brainwashed by gay men, lesbians, and the most masculine 1% of females to believe that they want to live like heterosexual men. The results have been disastrous.

    I don’t know if evolution has much to do with alcohol consumption. I think that’s just a function of bodyweight.

  126. @Name Withheld
    Watch the video "Video Games" by Lana Del Rey. It seems to criticize this alot. It's almost an alt-right video.

    Watch the video “Video Games” by Lana Del Rey. It seems to criticize this alot. It’s almost an alt-right video.

    Lana Del Rey is practically an Alt-Right singer, for that matter. There’s a reason why she got a lot of heat from feminists.

  127. I submit that it could be a result of women’s liberation in a simple way: there’s probably always been a population of women who are particularly susceptible to alcoholism. Increased access to alcohol just exacerbates it.

    I’ve had a friend with an intensely alcoholic wife, so I highly suspect its related. I dislike feminism in the extreme, but I wonder if sometimes our assumptions of social influence is exaggerated when there’s a much more simpler explanation with population genetics. Ultimately, feminism is a harmful but popular meme, but it wouldn’t be the first phenomenon like that.

    And as some others have mentioned, it might be also related to increase use of other drugs. I’ve known at least a few women who became very dependent on ambien, etc. Its especially true in my experience with women who work in hospitals, more or less in line with increased abuse of drugs in all hospital workers as a whole.

    As for myself, I’ve never much liked alcohol. I’ve tried a few times, but I didn’t enjoy its effect or taste.

  128. @whorefinder
    Middle aged divorcees are lonely and miserable as henpecking, unfeminine harpies. No no man wants them; they never had children (or enough children); never were full-time married moms; they deliberately squelched most of their natural femininity and coquettishness; they slept around, making it harder to bond with each successive partner; and they focused on meaningless, masculine, empty careers instead of home and family. They rejected their religions and their biological instincts and gave into secular existentialism and epicurianism. And, despite lesbians best efforts, most aren't drawn to the abusive Sappho side.

    So they drink themselves silly to forget.

    These women would be so fulfilled as happy grandmas, cooking roasts on Sundays for their hubbies while the latter go off to work for them 5 days a week, babysitting the grandkids, and being ladies. It actually hurts me to see them at this point, because it seems a point of no return. If they had youth they could perhaps reform their ways and find a (broken) man willing to take them in and make a go of it as a family. But as middle-aged women and beyond, they offer nothing to men to want them.

    Women with high school educations really do not think in terms of careers but everything else is right.

    These women have few illusions about moving up the ladder. That is for the college women.

  129. @Stealth
    I never could built up a decent tolerance for alcohol, either. The consumption of a mere pint of ninety proof was enough to make me ill for a good twelve hours. One New Year's Eve (I think I was twenty six), I picked up my bottle of rotgut Cuervo and shouted, "who's been drinking my tequila?" I knew the immediate future was none too bright when everyone told me that I had accomplished that all by myself.

    These days, I consume one beer a week.

    The quality of the alcohol really, really does have an affect on the outcomes, and it’s not only about the hangover. The buzz from a higher quality wine is a higher quality buzz, too, that produces more relaxation and openness relative to the stupefacient effects.

    • Replies: @Stealth

    The quality of the alcohol really, really does have an affect on the outcomes, and it’s not only about the hangover. The buzz from a higher quality wine is a higher quality buzz, too, that produces more relaxation and openness relative to the stupefacient effects.
     
    Wait, you mean to tell me that Jose Cuervo, Dewar's, Taaka Supreme and Old Charter are of inferior quality? Perish the thought. When I was 20 and broke, those were FIGHTING words.
  130. Insofar as the comments on drinking are concerned, I cannot help but remember thsis quote, although I no longer remember the source: “Beer has done more than theology to make God’s ways tolerable to man.”

    • Replies: @charles w abbott
    "Malt does more than Milton can
    To justify God's ways to man."

    Buckley has quoted it, and recommended serving beer on campus after 4 p.m. (IIRC).

    Any web search till turn up the attestation to "A Shropshire Lad" by A E Housman, which is as far back as I have traced the rhyme.
  131. @Intelligent Dasein
    I've had exactly the opposite experience. I'm in my mid thirties and my alcohol tolerance, which was always rather high to begin with, has, if anything, only increased with time. My metabolism has adjusted to derive a significant fraction of my daily caloric intake from ethanol. I put away quite a lot of brandy and scotch every night. I'm not overweight, still have a flat stomach, and I never feel nauseous or hungover. The last time I had a basic blood chemistry analysis, which was only about two months ago, my liver functioning was so perfect that it was almost scary, so no cirrhosis or fatty liver syndrome either.

    But I only drink at home, alone. I don't go out and drink, which is both too expensive and it invites significant legal repercussions if you happen to get pulled over. Plus, the social scene is bleak and valueless. My drinking time is coextensive with the time I have to read, write, and think, which is all I really want to do when I'm not actually at work.

    I've also noticed that no matter how much I drink, I never actually get "drunk" anymore. At most I get groggy and fall into that state of hypnogogic semi-consciousness which is about the closest I ever come to sleep. Even after 750 mLs of the hard stuff, 4 or 5 hours of that and I'm ready to roll again.

    Sometimes I wish I had a more normal physiology, but heck, nothing else about my life is normal so why should that be? If you want to run cool, you got to run on heavy, heavy fuel.

    I was in a similar situation a couple years ago–similar age and drinking a bottle of whisky almost every night, waking up the next morning none the worse, and no liver issues. I don’t know how I got into that situation or out of it, but now my tolerance has gone down quite a lot. My intuition is that factors like stress and anxiety play a larger part in tolerance than people realize.

  132. Look, whatever huge shift caused black deaths to drop from drinking and whites to rise that much in 15 years is not due to any social changes involving feminism, stress, or Other Bad Things Women Do that Wouldn’t Happen If They Let Men Take Care of Them. Keerist.

    My guess: the black women who used to die of booze are now dying of some other drug first, and the rise in opiod use among white hillbillies is leading to associated deaths by booze. Almost certainly, both categories are switching addictions of some sort. And if it’s not that, it’s something equally seismic among one particular income category, as opposed to middle class and rich professional women boozing it up because they don’t have a mayun taking care of them anymore.

    As someone who *wasn’t* an idiot observed, we drink far, far less than we did pre-prohibition. When life really was stressful.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    I think anony-mouse suggested that drunk driving deaths are down, so some of the people who would have died in drunk driving crashes if they had been born in 1940 are now dying of the wear and tear of years of heavy drinking.

    That's clever.
    , @Marcus
    The colonials were notoriously heavy drinkers, Washington himself operated the largest distillery in the colonies.
  133. @Marcus
    Turns out being a modern, independent woman isn't the cure-all it was touted as? I'd guess that more than half of American women are on anti-depressants as well, my mother has never drank a drop, but is on probably five prescriptions.

    The problem with anti-depressants is that we don’t know yet what side effects they might have over the long run. My impression is that some drugs might work for some people, but for other people they make them more depressed or even neurotic.

  134. @unpc downunder
    The article says that college educated women drink more frequently, but non-college women are more likely to binge drink. Hence, it's likely that most of the women who are drinking themselves to death are working class women.

    Yes, you’re correct. Sloppy reading.

    But I still think we might be seeing some effects of behavioral persistance.

    The implicit message of an article like this is that something is driving these women to drink, whereas it may just be that more women started drinking frequently when younger and have persisted. Drinking is hard to give up, so if the 80s and 90s saw an increase in college drinking, this might be an artifact.

    That doesn’t explain the binge-drinking change, but it might be a mistake to assume that changes in frequency of moderate drinking in one demographic are related to changes of frequency in heavy drinking in another.

    One thing nobody has mentioned is the changing patterns of food consumption over the last decades and how that might relate to drinking. Are people eating out more now and are they more likely to drink in that case? Do people drink more when their food portions are larger? Etc.

  135. @John Mansfield
    Convenient of Carrie Fisher to die the same day this came out, as illustration of the phenomenon.

    Real convenient to the “Coincidence Theorists”.

  136. @Dave Pinsen
    It is possible to get pleasantly buzzed without drinking to the point where you get sick or are hungover the next day, but people often have difficulty doing this.

    This is only possible for people who aren’t overweight/obese though.

    Which is a small percentage of women over 30, and an even smaller percentage of working class women, who are the ones who are suffering the most from this problem despite drinking less frequently.

    Normally it takes just 2 drinks for me to feel really buzzed and borderline drunk. I’m not thin, just normal weight.

    But the unfortunate year of college I spent overweight it took 4 to feel anything.

    Obesity (and probably overuse of prescriptions) is making alcohol abuse more dangerous, especially for women.

  137. @PiltdownMan
    In all things, moderation is nowadays held to be an implicitly patriarchal construct when directed at women. So, binge drinking has become a badge of emancipation. Beyond the first few episodes, of course, binge drinking is alcoholism.

    My somewhat wild guess.

    Their emancipation is akin to a fat person taking off a corset. All that flab goes everywhere, and the muscle tone is lacking for support. There is a horrible period of adjustment to the newfound “freedom” as the body shifts and settles and new clothes are purchased for the Empress.

    As with other physical (and many mental) processes, with every action there is a reaction. The reaction may take the form of acting out, as some unconscious terror works its way through the emancipated psyche. Current adherents are experiencing a type of agoraphobia, fear of open spaces. Binge drinking is one way to try to cope, unsuccessfully, with all that latitude.

  138. @snorlax
    To be a bit un-PC, the target audience for a show like Honey Boo Boo is white trash, whose self-confidence is boosted by being able to think of themselves as not white trash, compared with the people in the show.

    Here in liberal elitist Massachusetts I don't think I know anyone who'd be caught dead watching HBB, or who'd even have any desire to watch such a show.

    Indeed, just as I expected, Facebook searches for my friends who like Here Comes Honey Boo Boo and my friends who like Toddlers & Tiaras return no one.

    Disagree. I think the show was meant for younger Whites in college/post college to cringe-watch and feel superior and be snarky about.

    I do think lower income Whites have a lot of insecurity about whether or not they are “White Trash” but that insecurity is mostly a Northeast and Rust Belt thing. I think the “real” White Trash ie southern/Appalachian Whites tend to think hell yeah I am White Trash and proud of it

  139. @snorlax
    To be a bit un-PC, the target audience for a show like Honey Boo Boo is white trash, whose self-confidence is boosted by being able to think of themselves as not white trash, compared with the people in the show.

    Here in liberal elitist Massachusetts I don't think I know anyone who'd be caught dead watching HBB, or who'd even have any desire to watch such a show.

    Indeed, just as I expected, Facebook searches for my friends who like Here Comes Honey Boo Boo and my friends who like Toddlers & Tiaras return no one.

    To be a bit un-PC, the target audience for a show like Honey Boo Boo is white trash, whose self-confidence is boosted by being able to think of themselves as not white trash, compared with the people in the show.

    Who do you think the producers and executives who conceived this show are?

  140. @chikcahhika
    Mostly women don't have kids because its too expensive, jobs are not longterm/stable /secure, partner's don't stay like they used too and we still earn less while being left to juggle children with work.

    Dont again blame us, or call us brainwashed!! We carry the load.
    For a system so tilted towards not having children.
    If you want women to have more children give them equal pay with free and reliable child care up to children being old enough to look after them selves. so that women can progress in their career so they can be financially secure (which is really what this whole issue comes down to - security and independence)

    And yes you notice generally women hate the idea of handouts to the point we would rather sacrifice having children altogether

    Mostly women don’t have kids because its too expensive, jobs are not longterm/stable /secure, partner’s don’t stay like they used too and we still earn less while being left to juggle children with work.

    Dont again blame us, or call us brainwashed!! We carry the load.

    I guess Niger and Afghanistan must have the best economies in the world, while Japan and South Korea must have the worst.

    If you want women to have more children give them equal pay with free and reliable child care up to children being old enough to look after them selves. so that women can progress in their career so they can be financially secure (which is really what this whole issue comes down to – security and independence)

    Yet every generation in human history reproduced itself without those things. Women even reproduced when the chances of death from pregnancy were pretty high. Yet you won’t have kids because there isn’t enough of a welfare state? Because you might go from being a high middle class American to a low middle class American? Oh the horrors! Going from the 99.99th percentile of living standards across human history to the 99.98th percentile!

    I don’t want to hear it.

    • Replies: @Opinionator
    Yet every generation in human history reproduced itself without those things. Women even reproduced when the chances of death from pregnancy were pretty high. Yet you won’t have kids because there isn’t enough of a welfare state? Because you might go from being a high middle class American to a low middle class American? Oh the horrors! Going from the 99.99th percentile of living standards across human history to the 99.98th percentile!

    Interesting points. So what's the solution?
  141. @PA Polka
    Articles aimed at women hype wine as a health food and weight loss tool with miraculous properties. Not only in Sex and the City was drinking made glamorous, but in almost any movie or TV show, female characters are depicted casually quaffing wine from enormous balloon glasses. Also, according to the myth of the "French paradox" we can drink wine and eat cheese and not get fat! But when I was studying in France I noticed the French women in the cafes in the afternoon were usually not drinking wine, but mineral water, or citron presse - a half lemon squeezed in a glass of water, or a tiny cup of esspresso. My mother and grandmothers never saw daily drinking as a normal or healthy practice, nor did I, but many of my cohort do.

    The French smoke at unbelievable rates. When we were there this summer it looked close to 100% of the adult population. At cafes they weren’t drinking alcohol, it was espresso and cigarettes. Now there’s a diet plan. No calories in coffee or tobacco.

  142. @The Anti-Gnostic
    This has led me to wonder if marijuana and other non-refined drugs should be legalized, for the sake of Amerindians who haven't had time to evolve any defenses against alcoholism.

    OTOH, American blacks smoke lots of weed and it doesn't seem to reduce their dysfunction at all.

    This has led me to wonder if marijuana and other non-refined drugs should be legalized, for the sake of Amerindians who haven’t had time to evolve any defenses against alcoholism.

    I think the DOJ has essentially allowed the reservations free reign with marijuana.

    http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-marijuana-indians-20141211-story.html

  143. Drink as a man = ”liberation”, ;)

  144. @chikcahhika
    Mostly women don't have kids because its too expensive, jobs are not longterm/stable /secure, partner's don't stay like they used too and we still earn less while being left to juggle children with work.

    Dont again blame us, or call us brainwashed!! We carry the load.
    For a system so tilted towards not having children.
    If you want women to have more children give them equal pay with free and reliable child care up to children being old enough to look after them selves. so that women can progress in their career so they can be financially secure (which is really what this whole issue comes down to - security and independence)

    And yes you notice generally women hate the idea of handouts to the point we would rather sacrifice having children altogether

    This sounds pretty dispiriting and I hope it doesn’t reflect your life. Give up the rat race, settle down and respect a husband, have a couple kids and enjoy raising them.

    Remember, joy and love are real. Don’t turn your back on them.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    I think you're missing the fact that ultimately, women(and men) do things for status. Being a housewife is seen as lazy or worse - I've had an Asian female friend who kept being insulted as "thirsty" or "desperate" because she wanted to marry early and focus on being domestic.

    Children don't generally seem to bring status, just insults and put downs. Careers, on the other hand, do bring you status and also allow you to put down others. So would a lot of husbands, who want their wives to work so they will have more money, and thus more status. I make in the top 10% of income in the US, yet just about all of my friends seem to want to bug me why my wife doesn't work.

    One of them seems worried that my wife's domestic life will "infect" his wife, since he basically pushed his Russian wife to work much against her will. I still love his wife's argument against him once, before she gave up: "In Russia, any money a woman makes will go directly back into fancy underwear! Women do not work in Russia!" Alas, she is in America now.

    Any justification I give often has to revolve around money, usually when I argue that having a housewife is equivalent of someone making $70k to $80k.

    Society is sick. We're all together in this madness.

  145. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @PA Polka
    Articles aimed at women hype wine as a health food and weight loss tool with miraculous properties. Not only in Sex and the City was drinking made glamorous, but in almost any movie or TV show, female characters are depicted casually quaffing wine from enormous balloon glasses. Also, according to the myth of the "French paradox" we can drink wine and eat cheese and not get fat! But when I was studying in France I noticed the French women in the cafes in the afternoon were usually not drinking wine, but mineral water, or citron presse - a half lemon squeezed in a glass of water, or a tiny cup of esspresso. My mother and grandmothers never saw daily drinking as a normal or healthy practice, nor did I, but many of my cohort do.

    Those medical studies that came out many years ago that touted wine as ‘healthy’ because it contains antioxidants and prevents developing plaque in the arteries created a generation of female alcoholics. They now had a ‘healthy’ excuse to drink. Everyone conveniently ignored the fact that alcohol is addictive, and it destroys the liver. As for college drinking, I think it was a lessor factor. Women have been getting plastered in college drinking binges since the flappers of the 1920s. But back then, they were more likely to quit and stay off the sauce after they graduated to become wives and mothers. And if they didn’t marry right after college, many of them took jobs they had to stay sober for before they came across the man they wanted to marry.

    Yet another factor: In the days before legal abortion and the existence of birth control, you had to be careful to avoid losing control via alcohol because you might get knocked up, and this keep drinking rates lower. Getting pregnant without being married before the 1970s was stigmatized, and it was expensive, troublesome, and traumatic to get an abortion. Even if you decided to raise the kid yourself, the remarriage pool was much smaller because there was a much higher percentage of people who were married and not available. Women had a lot of economic incentives to stay sober back then.

  146. @chikcahhika
    Mostly women don't have kids because its too expensive, jobs are not longterm/stable /secure, partner's don't stay like they used too and we still earn less while being left to juggle children with work.

    Dont again blame us, or call us brainwashed!! We carry the load.
    For a system so tilted towards not having children.
    If you want women to have more children give them equal pay with free and reliable child care up to children being old enough to look after them selves. so that women can progress in their career so they can be financially secure (which is really what this whole issue comes down to - security and independence)

    And yes you notice generally women hate the idea of handouts to the point we would rather sacrifice having children altogether

    And yes you notice generally women hate the idea of handouts to the point we would rather sacrifice having children altogether

    Its interesting that you deplore the idea of handouts while asking for them in the form of government intervention and/or subsidy.

    From a statistical perspective, increased funding for child support programs have not increased birth rates in North European countries. Traditional families are pretty much the most consistent indicator of increased number of children.

    From my conservative perspective, this also misses the point, as increasing careerism in women isn’t actually helping preserve anything which remains of the concept of family. Having children and handing it off for others to take care of is essentially losing a large part of the point of motherhood.

    Taken to its natural extreme, Maoist China experimented with this concept and declared state ownership of children. Because, as they noted logically, children were spending more time with the school than their parents, so why not just have the state own them?

    It didn’t work out very well, incidentally. There’s a reason why Maoist China is no more. Occasionally some CCP member still trots out the idea, but I’m pretty sure as crazy ideas go now, there are probably slightly more CCP members supporting the restoration of Confucius’ family to political power than abolishing the family as a concept.

    Fundamentally, the notion of atomistic individuality is ultimately disturbing – and should be disturbing to everyone. For all of the notions of “independence”, there’s something fundamentally tragic, I think, about converting humans into identical grey economic units separated from each other, so that we can all have the independence to work for meaningless material symbols and die for meaningless lack of purpose.

  147. @Yep
    I wonder if the surge in popularity of wine has something to do with this and the belief that wine is "good for you" or at least not as bad for you. Next time you're stuck in a home goods type store with your wife take a look at how many pictures and other home decor have something to do with wine.

    I'm in my late 30's and it's rare to find a woman who doesn't drink and there are lots of woman who get drunk on a regular basis and they are proud of it. There's no shame attached to getting drunk anymore and it's actually accepted and cool. Go peruse an internet dating site and note the number of women who say they drink several times a week, educated women especially.

    Women are drinking to death because all they see is feminized males around. What has become of males in our society. I saw a female with a sign saying ‘NO, you make me a sandwich!” with an angry and sort of fatty face. Now, think about it. Women in general dislike a guy just because in the media all you see is deranged guys, lusting after any female in sight, and behaving at the same time effeminate at the same time. No boundaries, no respect, just sex, sex, sex, in both. Women as shown as lustful and willing right away to go to bed with any body for that one night stand. SO, in general the media has created a horrible monster where woman became what they are portrayed on television and the movies. Slots, whores, etc. So the same men who made them those things, are refusing to commit to any of those women. Guys are hypocritically looking for a ‘decent girl’, while in their minds think to know that you cannot find them.
    My best friend went to the Philippines to find according to him a good wife. He found one, way younger than him and lives there ever since, denouncing his cheating exes as whores and worst in his native Texas. So american women, this is for you. Stop mimicking the horrible life of so called celebrities, so you don’t become as they are, a bunch of depraved people who are miserable as can be, and just like you, also end their own lives. Be yourselves, imitate no one, and respect your self, and eventually a good guy will come your way, when he realizes that you are ‘different’ and not part of the lonely miserable pack of drunks, and suicidal.

    respectfully,

    in the middle.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
    "Women are drinking to death because all they see is feminized males around."

    Today's men are not more effeminate compared to yesterday's men. There are a myriad of reasons why women are increasingly binge drinking. Social norms have changed. Young women have disposable income for entertainment. Taxes on alcohol have not risen along with the Consumer Price Index, so wine, beer and liquor have gotten cheaper over time in real dollars.

    "My best friend went to the Philippines to find according to him a good wife. He found one, way younger than him and lives there ever since, denouncing his cheating exes as whores and worst in his native Texas. So american women, this is for you."

    Perhaps you ought follow your friend's path and search for a wife there. I suggest reading Gorilla Mindset. Your bitterness will melt away.
  148. @syonredux

    Convenient of Carrie Fisher to die the same day this came out, as illustration of the phenomenon.
     
    It's funny. Internet "Feminists" attacked people for commenting on Carrie Fisher's voice and appearance in Force Awakens . They ascribed the comments to sexist attitudes ("Women aren't allowed to age," etc). In reality, the comments stemmed from how drugs and alcohol had ravaged her body.

    When we saw Princess Leia in The Force Awakens, we were not simply looking at an older version of the girl that we saw in A New Hope; we were looking at a Leia who bore the stigmata of addiction....And no one wanted that for Leia....

    Though you could imagine 30 years of running a guerilla war against vastly superior forces aging you as much as mental illness and self-medicating with cocaine.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    Curious - what are the exact properties that cause the pretty well-known physical damages of hard drug use? I would think that they primarily affect the brain, as opposed to direct physiological insult to say, connective tissue in the skin.
  149. @unpc downunder
    The article says that college educated women drink more frequently, but non-college women are more likely to binge drink. Hence, it's likely that most of the women who are drinking themselves to death are working class women.

    In general, more freedom from social constraints (about sex, drugs, drinking, family formation, lifestyle) works out a lot better for smarter, better educated, wealthier people than for dumber, less educated, poorer people. It wouldn’t be a big shock if this pattern held for drinking and for opioid pain meds, just as it does for nontraditional family structures (aka baby daddy of the month).

    • Replies: @Anonymous Nephew
    I know it's used often, but Edmund Burke nailed it.

    "Men are qualified for civil liberty in exact proportion to their disposition to put moral chains upon their own appetites, — in proportion as their love of justice is above their rapacity, — in proportion as their soundness and sobriety of understanding is above their vanity and presumption, — in proportion as they are more disposed to listen to the counsels of the wise and good, in preference to the flattery of knaves. Society cannot exist, unless a controlling power upon will and appetite be placed somewhere; and the less of it there is within, the more there must be without. It is ordained in the eternal constitution of things, that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters."
     
  150. @NOTA
    Though you could imagine 30 years of running a guerilla war against vastly superior forces aging you as much as mental illness and self-medicating with cocaine.

    Curious – what are the exact properties that cause the pretty well-known physical damages of hard drug use? I would think that they primarily affect the brain, as opposed to direct physiological insult to say, connective tissue in the skin.

    • Replies: @NOTA
    Smoking has some effect on your skin. But smoking is kind of an outlier--really bad for you in a bunch of long-term ways, but not in many short-term ways.

    I think meth is supposed to rot out your teeth partly by causing you to grind your teeth, partly by drying up your saliva.

    IV heroin requires injecting into veins, and often ends up with infected sores and collapsed veins as a result. Cocaine sometimes causes heart attacks or arrrythmias.

    But I think the big impact is that people who are really screwed up by drugs don't take care of themselves--they don't eat right, don't brush their teeth, live in nasty and dangerous environments, etc. Old drunks are supposed to often be suffering from malnutrition thanks to getting most of their calories from a bottle, for example.
  151. @Lot

    Certainly drinking a glass of wine every night is fine, so several nights per week raises no red flags at all.
     
    Depends on which white people we are talking about. In areas of Europe where people evolved to tolerate alcohol as a safe and clean source of liquids and calories, sure it is harmless. For the Irish and Russians, I'm not not so sure.

    Depends on which white people we are talking about.

    In one sense, this WaPo article is unsuprising. Of all the races and ethnic groups worldwide, Europeans (and the associated New World diaspora) drink the most alcohol. The rate of deaths climbing is what is curious, and raises questions about the underlying causes. I suspect both increased affluence (more wealth; much easier availability and much broader variety) and cultural factors, both negative and positive (certain strains of feminism, the growth of wine, craft beer and craft spirits culture in the US, and others already mentioned), that have emerged over the last 50 years.

    Drill down more into the various Euro-American subgroups and what are the numbers? I suspect, as noted elsewhere in this thread, that blue-collar white women from Anglo-Celt groups (Scots-Irish, Irish, Welsh) are probably well represented in this trend. The Germanics/Scandi’s probably so as well. Not sure about Central/East/Southern Euro-American women. Italian and Greek American women I’ve known seemed to be able to drink much more moderately than the Scots-Irish women in my family (my Mom could throw them back in her day – beer and mixed drinks – but into middle age she drastically cut back and then quit altogether by age 55). But my sample size is limited to the white ethnics of suburbia Chicagoland in late 60s/70s/early 80s. OTOH I understand that New World descendants of French (in Canada and US) are more prone to alcoholism than their old world cousins, who are much more like the Italians, Spanish and Greeks in consumption/addiction.

    Personally I drank a lot in my late teens/early 20′s, moderately from then until my mid-30′s, then drastically cut back when I became a father to my current consumption level, which is 2-3 drinks per week.

  152. @SFG
    Yes, I think you've hit the nail on the head. The lack of positive virtues modeled by the upper classes hits the lower classes harder. The upper middle class, with their 110 IQs and large salaries, can engage in polyamory, swinging, and wine tasting, but when the blue-collar types try it they'll wind up with baby mamas, gunfights, and cirrhosis.

    There was an article on this in National Review, ages ago. Anyone remember it?

    I have lived in several large cities in blue states and fall into the upper-class demographic. Polyamory and swinging are non-existent in these circles, perhaps with the closest thing being peripheral gay men (inflated net worths from no kids, not as risky to accumulate home equity in the hood). Wine tastings are a thing, as is craft beer and sipping bourbon. The straight couples tend to be monogamous workaholics, post-college onward.

    As others have noted, the issue is with blue-collar types engaging in past-times, for which there is no clear upper-class equivalent in the last 30 years. Lower 50% Tom plays Xbox in his boxers until 4pm on Saturday, drinking Jack and cokes. Or he talks his girlfriend into going to a Fetlife party, which strains the relationship and they break up. Or they get matching visible tattoos, marring their career prospects.

    Lower 30% Bob sees this and thinks there is only one thing that could make Tom’s situation better: weed and Oxy!

    The closest these activities ever came to being middle-upper class was in the Bubble, when Tom and company borrowed their way into the middle-upper class.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    With one exception, this is not my experience with blue-collar types. Although I'm going to only draw from empirical experience, some of the most traditional white women that I knew came from the blue-collar households and did not vastly indulge in alcohol. They did usually drink some beer, however, but didn't seem to be fond of the upper-class life as portrayed on TV especially since many of them rejected those portrayals as basically uppity.

    I suspect their rejection of feminism was for similar reasons - as rejection of an idea reserved for rich upper class women. Also, probably because working was always expected of lower-class women, so not having to work was seen as status. I remember one woman constantly brag about being a housewife.

    On the other hand, I'm in the upper middle class and my wife often feels humiliated by others for saying that she's a housewife. Some ethnic groups, such as blacks, have openly insulted her for it("oh, how privileged"). Its a bit disgusting.

    That said, I do remember the stupidity of matching tattoos and piercings, though in blue-collar friends. Yeah. That was dumb.

    I also remember the serial marriages and the general lack of responsibility all around, especially from some of the men. That was also dumb.

    I would agree with you to some extent about the upper-class workaholics. However, when it comes to depravity, no one can possibly match those with inherited wealth. Incest is just the beginning. I've had the misfortune of getting close to one group of such people. They're scary. They're very scary. As in teenage underage sex and daily drunkenness scary, paired with casual animal abuse. I knew one girl who threw her roommate/girlfriend's dog off the balcony because it was yapping too much. Then she thought that I was upset with her because she "lost grace."

    Seriously wtf is wrong with some people.

    I don't even know what type of drugs those people were on. I don't think I would want to. I'm so glad I got away from them.

    , @Jim Don Bob
    Never heard of Fetlife before; I learn something new every day. Some of it is even worthwhile. ;-)
  153. @NOTA
    In general, more freedom from social constraints (about sex, drugs, drinking, family formation, lifestyle) works out a lot better for smarter, better educated, wealthier people than for dumber, less educated, poorer people. It wouldn't be a big shock if this pattern held for drinking and for opioid pain meds, just as it does for nontraditional family structures (aka baby daddy of the month).

    I know it’s used often, but Edmund Burke nailed it.

    “Men are qualified for civil liberty in exact proportion to their disposition to put moral chains upon their own appetites, — in proportion as their love of justice is above their rapacity, — in proportion as their soundness and sobriety of understanding is above their vanity and presumption, — in proportion as they are more disposed to listen to the counsels of the wise and good, in preference to the flattery of knaves. Society cannot exist, unless a controlling power upon will and appetite be placed somewhere; and the less of it there is within, the more there must be without. It is ordained in the eternal constitution of things, that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters.”

  154. “There are those people who live on 400 calories a day and purport that they’re extending their lives but a certain part of living is in the enjoyment of life so I’m not at all persuaded that trading six months or a year at the end for decades of good, jovial living would be worth it to me or most people in any event.”

    I’m jealous of the people who can eat and drink whatever the hell they want and still manage to be happy. My own personal experience is that if eat dull, plain, boring stuff for the ~5% of my life I spend eating that I’m much happier, healthier, and more productive the other 95% of the time. Caloric restriction is another matter entirely.

  155. Men without a job self feel useless and medicate with the hillbilly heroin that is easily accessible for manual workers. For women they feel useless after losing their man, really quite devastated. I know of one who just drank herself to death after a divorce. I suppose their age is part of why they have been dumped. Devastating for a woman. Low social status, which is a type of stress, makes for easier addiction in animal experiments.

  156. @Monogamoose
    I have lived in several large cities in blue states and fall into the upper-class demographic. Polyamory and swinging are non-existent in these circles, perhaps with the closest thing being peripheral gay men (inflated net worths from no kids, not as risky to accumulate home equity in the hood). Wine tastings are a thing, as is craft beer and sipping bourbon. The straight couples tend to be monogamous workaholics, post-college onward.

    As others have noted, the issue is with blue-collar types engaging in past-times, for which there is no clear upper-class equivalent in the last 30 years. Lower 50% Tom plays Xbox in his boxers until 4pm on Saturday, drinking Jack and cokes. Or he talks his girlfriend into going to a Fetlife party, which strains the relationship and they break up. Or they get matching visible tattoos, marring their career prospects.

    Lower 30% Bob sees this and thinks there is only one thing that could make Tom's situation better: weed and Oxy!

    The closest these activities ever came to being middle-upper class was in the Bubble, when Tom and company borrowed their way into the middle-upper class.

    With one exception, this is not my experience with blue-collar types. Although I’m going to only draw from empirical experience, some of the most traditional white women that I knew came from the blue-collar households and did not vastly indulge in alcohol. They did usually drink some beer, however, but didn’t seem to be fond of the upper-class life as portrayed on TV especially since many of them rejected those portrayals as basically uppity.

    I suspect their rejection of feminism was for similar reasons – as rejection of an idea reserved for rich upper class women. Also, probably because working was always expected of lower-class women, so not having to work was seen as status. I remember one woman constantly brag about being a housewife.

    On the other hand, I’m in the upper middle class and my wife often feels humiliated by others for saying that she’s a housewife. Some ethnic groups, such as blacks, have openly insulted her for it(“oh, how privileged”). Its a bit disgusting.

    That said, I do remember the stupidity of matching tattoos and piercings, though in blue-collar friends. Yeah. That was dumb.

    I also remember the serial marriages and the general lack of responsibility all around, especially from some of the men. That was also dumb.

    I would agree with you to some extent about the upper-class workaholics. However, when it comes to depravity, no one can possibly match those with inherited wealth. Incest is just the beginning. I’ve had the misfortune of getting close to one group of such people. They’re scary. They’re very scary. As in teenage underage sex and daily drunkenness scary, paired with casual animal abuse. I knew one girl who threw her roommate/girlfriend’s dog off the balcony because it was yapping too much. Then she thought that I was upset with her because she “lost grace.”

    Seriously wtf is wrong with some people.

    I don’t even know what type of drugs those people were on. I don’t think I would want to. I’m so glad I got away from them.

  157. Suspect white female demographic timeline falls out approximately:
    16yo in 1986: “Kegger at Kyle’s house. His mom bought the keg! Such…a…cool…mom.”
    26yo in 1996: “Soundgarden concert! Tried ecstasy! Got first tattoo with boyfriend.”
    36yo in 2006: “Motley Crue reunion tour! Just bought a home! Tommy Lee is hot. Vince Neil sounds tired.”
    46yo in 2016: “All my bands are old. I haven’t saved enough. Bicardi and Oxy feels good.”

    • Replies: @Forbes
    You left out the out-of-wedlock kids... otherwise, spot-on.
  158. @education realist
    Look, whatever huge shift caused black deaths to drop from drinking and whites to rise that much in 15 years is not due to any social changes involving feminism, stress, or Other Bad Things Women Do that Wouldn't Happen If They Let Men Take Care of Them. Keerist.

    My guess: the black women who used to die of booze are now dying of some other drug first, and the rise in opiod use among white hillbillies is leading to associated deaths by booze. Almost certainly, both categories are switching addictions of some sort. And if it's not that, it's something equally seismic among one particular income category, as opposed to middle class and rich professional women boozing it up because they don't have a mayun taking care of them anymore.

    As someone who *wasn't* an idiot observed, we drink far, far less than we did pre-prohibition. When life really was stressful.

    I think anony-mouse suggested that drunk driving deaths are down, so some of the people who would have died in drunk driving crashes if they had been born in 1940 are now dying of the wear and tear of years of heavy drinking.

    That’s clever.

  159. @The Anti-Gnostic
    This has led me to wonder if marijuana and other non-refined drugs should be legalized, for the sake of Amerindians who haven't had time to evolve any defenses against alcoholism.

    OTOH, American blacks smoke lots of weed and it doesn't seem to reduce their dysfunction at all.

    Blacks are less dysfunctional in 2016 smoking a lot of weed than in 1991 smoking a lot of crack.

    • Replies: @whorefinder
    In the short term, definitely yes---nobody wants violent crackhouses back en vogue. Of course, with cocaine more plentiful than it was in 1991, the demand for crack is way down.

    However, the long-term effects of marijuana have been significantly downplayed by Hollywood over the last 40-50 years. There is a strong link between prolonged pot smoking and schizophrenia, something that Hollywood loves to poke fun at as nonsensical (hence the joke in Animal House when Donald Sutherland hands the student some pot: "I won't go schizo, will I?"). But the link is real and disturbing.

    Much like long-term alcohol abuse, long-term pot abuse can cause a lot of problems, and we aren't quite sure how much.
  160. @Formerly CARealist
    This sounds pretty dispiriting and I hope it doesn't reflect your life. Give up the rat race, settle down and respect a husband, have a couple kids and enjoy raising them.

    Remember, joy and love are real. Don't turn your back on them.

    I think you’re missing the fact that ultimately, women(and men) do things for status. Being a housewife is seen as lazy or worse – I’ve had an Asian female friend who kept being insulted as “thirsty” or “desperate” because she wanted to marry early and focus on being domestic.

    Children don’t generally seem to bring status, just insults and put downs. Careers, on the other hand, do bring you status and also allow you to put down others. So would a lot of husbands, who want their wives to work so they will have more money, and thus more status. I make in the top 10% of income in the US, yet just about all of my friends seem to want to bug me why my wife doesn’t work.

    One of them seems worried that my wife’s domestic life will “infect” his wife, since he basically pushed his Russian wife to work much against her will. I still love his wife’s argument against him once, before she gave up: “In Russia, any money a woman makes will go directly back into fancy underwear! Women do not work in Russia!” Alas, she is in America now.

    Any justification I give often has to revolve around money, usually when I argue that having a housewife is equivalent of someone making $70k to $80k.

    Society is sick. We’re all together in this madness.

    • Replies: @Formerly CARealist
    "Children don’t generally seem to bring status, just insults and put downs. Careers, on the other hand, do bring you status and also allow you to put down others."

    Dang, I don't know what circles you're traveling in, but I'd look for new ones if I were you. A man with lots of children should be able to brag, tacitly, about his manhood no matter what his wife does. A woman with more than 3 kids is a superhero and anybody who thinks otherwise is a fool. Maybe you should look for work in a more conservative industry or town.

    I'll tell you a little story. I was at a work party at my sis's house years ago and there were striving career women in their early 30's there, some with babies, sitting around griping about the work/family challenge. I just hung out with my brood and shrugged and laughed at the way they were needlessly killing themselves. Maybe I was tactless, but within one year my sis tells me all of them (3 people?) had either gone part time or quit altogether. Once you get into more conservative circles of moms and dads the status of a mom working full-time evaporates. And even liberal women recognize the benefits of being home with the kids.
  161. @SFG
    Good comments by all, some thoughts:

    1. Women genuinely can't handle as much alcohol as men; this is one reason why heavy drinking was always seen as manly. It's another example of pretending biological sex differences don't exist. (And yes, men become alcoholics and get cirrhosis too, but if women try to copy men they are going to get into trouble faster.)

    2. I suspect the college women are drinking and the blue-collar women are drinking and dying. Whatever the negative effects of college it does serve as a self-control test. Not that college-educated people don't drink themselves to death but the White Death is disproportionately hitting the uneducated (and you remember cirrhosis was there with hep C and opioid overdoses).

    3. Moderate amounts of alcohol do seem to have a cardioprotective effect. Alcohol is addictive, which means many people can't stop at moderate amounts. This means we are going to go around and around forever on whether it is good or not until we can swab people's cheeks and check the serotonin and dopamine receptor polymorphisms (and those for all the neurotransmitters we don't know are involved yet).

    Whatever the negative effects of college it does serve as a self-control test.

    Not test, filter.

  162. @Stealth
    Good Lord, how can people get drunk so often? I'm in my late thirties, too, and up until about two years ago, I was a daily drinker, but the last time I got properly shit-faced was back in my twenties. I ended up spending the following day lying on a friend's bathroom floor because my nausea was so severe and persistent. It was the last time I said "never again."

    I guess this story also illustrates the loneliness of twenty-something life in America; despite the fact that I spent an entire Sunday vomiting at his house, the friend was actually just glad to have someone to talk to.

    How can people get drunk so often?

    Easy. Money. There is just so much more of it about these days. Four decades ago, inasmuch as everything was vastly cheaper, it was hard to go out and get drunk on a regular basis–you couldn’t afford it. (Budget and cash management–no credit cards, no ATMs.) Heavy drinking would be done at home, at someone’s house–at a party–with a $4.00 case of beer or a $5.00 bottle of booze.

    Today the cost of one beer or cocktail is more than that and the Millennial crowd throws drinks back like it’s the last night out before boot camp or jail. Also, reasonably attractive women don’t have to spend a dime–beta boys can always be guilt-tripped into buying their drinks.

  163. @education realist
    Look, whatever huge shift caused black deaths to drop from drinking and whites to rise that much in 15 years is not due to any social changes involving feminism, stress, or Other Bad Things Women Do that Wouldn't Happen If They Let Men Take Care of Them. Keerist.

    My guess: the black women who used to die of booze are now dying of some other drug first, and the rise in opiod use among white hillbillies is leading to associated deaths by booze. Almost certainly, both categories are switching addictions of some sort. And if it's not that, it's something equally seismic among one particular income category, as opposed to middle class and rich professional women boozing it up because they don't have a mayun taking care of them anymore.

    As someone who *wasn't* an idiot observed, we drink far, far less than we did pre-prohibition. When life really was stressful.

    The colonials were notoriously heavy drinkers, Washington himself operated the largest distillery in the colonies.

  164. @Diversity Heretic
    Insofar as the comments on drinking are concerned, I cannot help but remember thsis quote, although I no longer remember the source: "Beer has done more than theology to make God's ways tolerable to man."

    “Malt does more than Milton can
    To justify God’s ways to man.”

    Buckley has quoted it, and recommended serving beer on campus after 4 p.m. (IIRC).

    Any web search till turn up the attestation to “A Shropshire Lad” by A E Housman, which is as far back as I have traced the rhyme.

    • Replies: @Kylie
    Ah, Housman. My favorite modern poet.

    Yes, the phrase "And malt does more than Milton can
    To justify God’s ways to man" is to be found in the poem "Terence, this is stupid stuff", from "A Shropshire Lad".

    I know I shouldn't put the title of the collection in quotation marks but that's all I know how to do.
  165. @whorefinder
    The Facebook/Instagram/Reality TV age has only worsened the effect of feminism.

    Now, not only are they pressured in-group and by academics to hook up, not wait, sleep around, and focus on career, but now if they dress promiscuously and act hedonisticly and post their exploits online, they will receive a million "likes" and positive comments from random strangers on how "hot" they look/"you go girl!", further encouraging them to act promiscuously and like attention-hos, and thereby discouraging them from settling down and being mothers.

    And then she watches Reality TV, and sees women rewarded for hooking up, one night stands, catfighting, dressing sluttily, sex tapes, divorcing, etc. (Kim Kardashian, Paris Hilton, etc.) These only further her desire not to be a staid housewife and mother.

    The female desire for attention from as many people as possible is immense, and men repeatedly underestimate it. It is a flip side of female insecurity. Yes, men like attention too, but not at the same level females like/need it; it is a gnawing hunger in women. The female insecurity/desire for attention is like the male sex drive: the opposite sex desires the same thing, but will never understand just how badly the other side desires it more.

    This.

    The female desire for attention from as many people as possible is immense, and men repeatedly underestimate it. It is a flip side of female insecurity.

    True.

    In 30 years of people watching in Manhattan bars, you’d be excused for thinking the sexes have changed roles–a result of a feminized education system, female entitlement, “you go grrl!” encouragement, and manliness viewed as dysfunction. Young women provocatively parade about dressed promiscuously, behaving assertively, aggressively (as men once did), while young men are mostly passive, awaiting for consent to be granted an audience. The young men are paranoid to the point of paralysis at the mere mention of the topic of sexual harassment/rape while being used as meal/drinks tickets.

    Pathetic.

    • Replies: @Kylie
    "In 30 years of people watching in Manhattan bars, you’d be excused for thinking the sexes have changed roles–a result of a feminized education system, female entitlement, “you go grrl!” encouragement, and manliness viewed as dysfunction."

    I don't need to go to a bar in Manhattan to see this totally unnatural and deviant exchange of roles. I see it in movies and T.V. shows (which is one reason why I watch so few newly released movies and so little T.V.) I also see it in real life.

    To paraphrase Henry James, "The sight of which is an affliction of which even time has never blunted the edge."
  166. Like many Africans, most women have a verbal fluency which makes them seem smarter than they are.

    • Agree: E. Rekshun
  167. @Stealth
    The only problem with drinking "just enough" is that one eventually reaches the crossroads, that point in time at which the choice must be made. Do I stop now and succumb to sleepiness, or do I go to the next level? Things get real when you choose to sober up, and nobody wants that when they're having a good time. And forget about maintenance dosing. It feels about like sobering up. Might as well just go to bed.

    I’ve never found it that complicated to pace oneself–but it does require self-knowledge, self-discipline, and self-control. Meaning: Ignoring peer pressure. Drinking alcohol for enjoyment is not a race or a contest–one whose prize is usually a hangover and a wicked headache. If going to bed is an option–that’s probably the choice you should make. Missing some good times will mean missing all the bad times.

    • Replies: @Stealth
    I don't mean to give the impression that bad hangovers were a regular occurrence in my life, but the ones I did have were very memorable. I knew how to pace myself, but my occasional failures in that regard make for more entertaining and instructive subject matter.
  168. I’ve never understood the pleasure one gets from drinking alcohol. I don’t dislike it, but don’t particularly enjoy the taste and don’t like all that liquid sloshing around in my stomach. I’ve been slightly tipsy three or four times in my entire life. I’m over 50 y/o, and I’ve had a total of about 40 beers and ten mixed drinks in my entire life, and haven’t had a sip of alcohol since the one beer I had watching Super Bowl 46 when the New England Patriots lost to the NY Giants. On occasion, I do order an (over-priced) non-alcoholic beer.

    And there is nothing less attractive than an intoxicated woman.

  169. @Dwright
    Let alone the 16 cokes she drank everyday. Addictive personality to the end.

    Let alone the 16 cokes she drank everyday.

    Yes, it’s true.

    http://rare.us/story/watch-carrie-fisher-open-up-about-her-affair-with-harrison-ford-and-her-love-for-coca-cola-on-ellen/

    And we guys should heed the warning set by the life of former MLB ptcher Denny McLain.

    Cy Young and MVP winner, World Series champ, played the organ in Vegas shows.

    Also drank 24 bottles of Pepsi a day.

    And got involved with bookies, did two years for cocaine trafficking, and did another seven years for embezzling from a meat-packer’s pension fund.

    http://sabr.org/bioproj/person/6bddedd4

    Singing in perfect harmony, indeed.

  170. @Alec Leamas

    That’s pretty much the entire thesis of Charles Murray’s book Coming Apart, but Murray says that the upper classes aren’t engaging in this self destructive behavior but rather are shamed into not showing guidance to the lower classes by today’s pc culture where you can never criticize anyone for anything.
     
    If that's his thesis, it's completely wrong.

    The self-regarded upper classes mock and criticize the white lower classes incessantly. It's sport for them. We just had an election where it was a decisive factor in the outcome.

    You’ve missed the distinction that Murray makes as between lifestyle and politics regarding upper class vs lower class.

    The route to staying out of poverty, and having a middle class (or better) lifestyle include some very simple rules that (Murray notes) the upper class does not promote, and does not criticize when it fails to appear: stay in school, graduate–from college, if so inclined; obtain full time employment; don’t use drugs or commit crimes; get married before having children.

    The elite political critique expounded by the lapdog media and Hillary Clinton during the election was the ad hominem of “racist, sexist, misogynist, xenophobe, etc., etc.”

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    But if the standard were in fact not criticizing anyone for anything (i.e. Niceanity), then that would cover the ad hominem attacks as well, indeed especially ad hominem attacks. That it demonstrably does not means that that is not the standard.
    , @E. Rekshun
    The route to staying out of poverty, and having a middle class (or better) lifestyle

    Or, even more simply - avoid stupid people, stupid places, and stupid things.
  171. @Monogamoose
    I have lived in several large cities in blue states and fall into the upper-class demographic. Polyamory and swinging are non-existent in these circles, perhaps with the closest thing being peripheral gay men (inflated net worths from no kids, not as risky to accumulate home equity in the hood). Wine tastings are a thing, as is craft beer and sipping bourbon. The straight couples tend to be monogamous workaholics, post-college onward.

    As others have noted, the issue is with blue-collar types engaging in past-times, for which there is no clear upper-class equivalent in the last 30 years. Lower 50% Tom plays Xbox in his boxers until 4pm on Saturday, drinking Jack and cokes. Or he talks his girlfriend into going to a Fetlife party, which strains the relationship and they break up. Or they get matching visible tattoos, marring their career prospects.

    Lower 30% Bob sees this and thinks there is only one thing that could make Tom's situation better: weed and Oxy!

    The closest these activities ever came to being middle-upper class was in the Bubble, when Tom and company borrowed their way into the middle-upper class.

    Never heard of Fetlife before; I learn something new every day. Some of it is even worthwhile. ;-)

  172. @biz
    No, Murray is completely correct.

    The distinction is that, yes, the upper classes do currently mock/ criticize the lower classes, but the the way they do so is incomplete.

    Upper class people will freely criticize lower class diets, their weights, their tobacco use, some of their preferred entertainments, possibly their speech patterns, and in the case of lower class whites, their political outlook.

    However because of rigid feminist PC taboos, upper class people will not mock / criticize the main central determining central factor that actually keeps lower class people down: the breakdown of their family structure into babymomma babydaddy nonsense. There is nowadays no sense of noblesse oblige about communicating the importance of getting married to one person first, then having kids when financially able, then staying married, which as Murray points out is what upper class people are doing but treating like a closely guarded secret in order to make sure their own kids don't have any real competition in life. However the real reason is not even that level of enlightened self-interest, it is rather that PC dictates that single motherhood can never be criticized, and to the extent that it can be acknowledged as something less than optimal, it must be treated as an effect of poverty and crime rather than a cause.

    Real upper class people – the mega-wealthy – behave as they please, and can be almost as trashy as underclass whites. What Murray is talking about is the upper middle class; the high professionals like successful physicians, attorneys and academics.

    These people look down on poorer whites, but they also prey on them. They have internalized something like an ethnic outgroup contempt for their victims. The amount of harm done to the American family and society in general by these types over the last few decades is stupefying. It’s a wonder we can still get by.

    Attorneys and judges enable and prosper from other people’s misery, and then turn around and say something like “these people are morally deficient.” They are worse than pimps precisely because of their stunning hypocrisy and their tendency to dress up the instruments of dispossession, such as court-enforced feminism, as “humanitarian” and “progressive.”

    Even Murray gets in on it. He goes on and on about how lousy the men in Fishtown are without once stopping to wonder how many of the congregants at his fancy church are making a living putting these men in exactly this position. How many blue collar men earning good wages and working hard manage to keep their marriages intact? Not many. And then that decent pay gets spread three ways: one for babymomma, one for the asshole lawyer, and whatever’s left for the working man. Why on earth would Fishtown boys step up to the plate and get married under that regime?

    Something has to be done about the complete and utter moral depravity of our predatory professional class long before we can even think about addressing the faults of hapless underclass whites, who are the least part of the problem.

    • Replies: @Forbes
    Good critique of Murray. He can't put himself in the Fishtown boys' shoes because he can't see the crap shoot that marriage has become for men. For a social scientist, Murray seems devoid of the social reality of mating and marriage today. He can analyze tables of demographic data all day long--but he couldn't answer (your question) why would Fishtown boys get married under the current regime?
    , @Stealth
    I think you nailed this one, even though you forgot to mention the doctors who overcharge the hell out of everybody.

    I've always said that the UM class screws the lower classes just as much as the One Percent - and a lot more directly.
    , @biz
    Yes, I was using "upper classes" as a short-hand for the upper-middle class which populates Murray's Belmont, not the Paris Hilton degenerate super-rich. I thought that was obvious.

    As for the hypothesized connection between the supposed malfeasance of Belmont's professionals (lawyers, judges) on Fishtown's marriage rate, I am not buying it. It isn't fear of divorce and unfair child support payments that leads people toward all of the babymomma babydaddy stuff. Yes, fear of divorce and child support is real out there, but what it leads to is MTGOW, not babydaddy-ism. People who are afraid of the court system do not generally impregnate. Fishtown's men and women are also not afraid of divorce, because marriage itself isn't even in their plan.

    The reason that Fishtown's men and women, not to mention their black counterparts, are not orienting their lives around forming stable nuclear families - from which most of their other problems flow - is mostly because they have almost completely lost the expectation to do so and the social sanction against not doing so.
  173. @Hepp

    Mostly women don’t have kids because its too expensive, jobs are not longterm/stable /secure, partner’s don’t stay like they used too and we still earn less while being left to juggle children with work.

    Dont again blame us, or call us brainwashed!! We carry the load.
     
    I guess Niger and Afghanistan must have the best economies in the world, while Japan and South Korea must have the worst.

    If you want women to have more children give them equal pay with free and reliable child care up to children being old enough to look after them selves. so that women can progress in their career so they can be financially secure (which is really what this whole issue comes down to – security and independence)
     
    Yet every generation in human history reproduced itself without those things. Women even reproduced when the chances of death from pregnancy were pretty high. Yet you won't have kids because there isn't enough of a welfare state? Because you might go from being a high middle class American to a low middle class American? Oh the horrors! Going from the 99.99th percentile of living standards across human history to the 99.98th percentile!

    I don't want to hear it.

    Yet every generation in human history reproduced itself without those things. Women even reproduced when the chances of death from pregnancy were pretty high. Yet you won’t have kids because there isn’t enough of a welfare state? Because you might go from being a high middle class American to a low middle class American? Oh the horrors! Going from the 99.99th percentile of living standards across human history to the 99.98th percentile!

    Interesting points. So what’s the solution?

    • Replies: @Hepp

    Interesting points. So what’s the solution?
     
    If the problem is cultural, then so is the solution. Develop a culture that is the opposite of what we have now, glorify family life and motherhood, expose the emptiness of careerism and vapid materialism.
  174. @PiltdownMan
    In all things, moderation is nowadays held to be an implicitly patriarchal construct when directed at women. So, binge drinking has become a badge of emancipation. Beyond the first few episodes, of course, binge drinking is alcoholism.

    My somewhat wild guess.

    In all things, everything is nowadays held to be an implicitely patriarchal construct when directed at women. So, most behavior, when rationalized this way, becomes a badge of emancipation.

    Fixed.

  175. @chikcahhika
    Mostly women don't have kids because its too expensive, jobs are not longterm/stable /secure, partner's don't stay like they used too and we still earn less while being left to juggle children with work.

    Dont again blame us, or call us brainwashed!! We carry the load.
    For a system so tilted towards not having children.
    If you want women to have more children give them equal pay with free and reliable child care up to children being old enough to look after them selves. so that women can progress in their career so they can be financially secure (which is really what this whole issue comes down to - security and independence)

    And yes you notice generally women hate the idea of handouts to the point we would rather sacrifice having children altogether

    So that women can progress in their career so they can be financially secure (which is really what this whole issue comes down to – security and independence)

    Wrong. This whole thing comes down to women not being able to obtain a commitment from a man.

  176. @Anonymous
    Life can be pretty stressful for a middle age married woman. Small or teenage kids, trying to move up in the workplace, mortgage, aging parents and in laws, etc. And that lasts a long time and can be very draining.

    But, but, but…I thought women could “have it all”… Do you mean that the dream of “having it all” is actually a nightmare??

  177. @Daniel Chieh
    I think you're missing the fact that ultimately, women(and men) do things for status. Being a housewife is seen as lazy or worse - I've had an Asian female friend who kept being insulted as "thirsty" or "desperate" because she wanted to marry early and focus on being domestic.

    Children don't generally seem to bring status, just insults and put downs. Careers, on the other hand, do bring you status and also allow you to put down others. So would a lot of husbands, who want their wives to work so they will have more money, and thus more status. I make in the top 10% of income in the US, yet just about all of my friends seem to want to bug me why my wife doesn't work.

    One of them seems worried that my wife's domestic life will "infect" his wife, since he basically pushed his Russian wife to work much against her will. I still love his wife's argument against him once, before she gave up: "In Russia, any money a woman makes will go directly back into fancy underwear! Women do not work in Russia!" Alas, she is in America now.

    Any justification I give often has to revolve around money, usually when I argue that having a housewife is equivalent of someone making $70k to $80k.

    Society is sick. We're all together in this madness.

    “Children don’t generally seem to bring status, just insults and put downs. Careers, on the other hand, do bring you status and also allow you to put down others.”

    Dang, I don’t know what circles you’re traveling in, but I’d look for new ones if I were you. A man with lots of children should be able to brag, tacitly, about his manhood no matter what his wife does. A woman with more than 3 kids is a superhero and anybody who thinks otherwise is a fool. Maybe you should look for work in a more conservative industry or town.

    I’ll tell you a little story. I was at a work party at my sis’s house years ago and there were striving career women in their early 30′s there, some with babies, sitting around griping about the work/family challenge. I just hung out with my brood and shrugged and laughed at the way they were needlessly killing themselves. Maybe I was tactless, but within one year my sis tells me all of them (3 people?) had either gone part time or quit altogether. Once you get into more conservative circles of moms and dads the status of a mom working full-time evaporates. And even liberal women recognize the benefits of being home with the kids.

  178. @Whiskey
    The complaint by the feminist woman about alcohol. Where to begin? Rage at lower class men ogling her? That her workplace is not fairy dust and unicorn farts? That everything in life is not arranged to her satisfaction?

    This I think is the result of Daddy's Girl being spoiled all her life. It used to be that even Upper Class got the brutal talk by their mothers, with Daddy being a nice but distant part of their life. The Talk included limitations by Father Time on their beauty, ability to bear children, and attract the best man. That once married, they could not turn back time like Cher (and get another butt tattoo) to when they were nineteen. Women knew the score by the time they were seventeen or so; their mothers made sure they knew it as a matter of survival. Even middle class girls were quickly burdened by responsibilities -- when married they had to help run the business or practice of their husbands, while keeping house and looking after the kids. It wasn't easy but that was life.

    Spoiled, lazy, angry at fading beauty, and not being beautiful enough (that line about lower class "janitors" and "drunks on the street" ogling her was a huge tell) -- yeah no wonder Daddy's little Princess who was not an actual Princess, drank too much. See Hillary Clinton, it seems if you believe Wikileaks. Drunk at 4:30 pm. This seems to be part of much of the White female professional class. Most real beauties don't drink too much -- bad for the complexion.

    About 98% of women's rage, issues, drinking etc. are related to not being beautiful enough. Its rare that a Victoria's Secret Model has that problem. Carrie Fisher -- cute but not beautiful and not secure enough in her apparently considerable script-rewriting skills to just leverage off that and settle for the best man she could get in her early twenties is a good example though a sad one.

    One thing stands out in the graph. Asian women hardly drink at all and they have remained the same in alcohol related deaths since 1999. Hispanic women only a bit more. Black women declined for much of the time, from a higher point than White women in 1999. Now White women are the only group to INCREASE and at that, significantly, from 1999 levels, absent a small uptick for Black women very late in the time period. Why are a lot more White women dying from booze-related issues than Black women in 1999?

    For me its the aging of the spoiled cohort that drinks away the lack of fantasy life they had always imagined -- being the star, center of attention, beautiful, with the hot, dominant Alpha guy, and fabulous famous lifestyle. That's Daddy's Girl raised to the nth degree and we are seeing the fallout.

    I’ve said for three+ decades, the problem with most women–these Daddy’s Girls, these princesses–is their father, and I know plenty of these fathers. They indulge their daughter’s fantasies, no expenses spared, and rather than encouraging their settling down, they tell their daughters they can “do better.” It’s as if they were coaching the son they didn’t have in his mating strategy.

  179. @Monogamoose
    Suspect white female demographic timeline falls out approximately:
    16yo in 1986: "Kegger at Kyle's house. His mom bought the keg! Such...a...cool...mom."
    26yo in 1996: "Soundgarden concert! Tried ecstasy! Got first tattoo with boyfriend."
    36yo in 2006: "Motley Crue reunion tour! Just bought a home! Tommy Lee is hot. Vince Neil sounds tired."
    46yo in 2016: "All my bands are old. I haven't saved enough. Bicardi and Oxy feels good."

    You left out the out-of-wedlock kids… otherwise, spot-on.

  180. @Bill P
    Real upper class people - the mega-wealthy - behave as they please, and can be almost as trashy as underclass whites. What Murray is talking about is the upper middle class; the high professionals like successful physicians, attorneys and academics.

    These people look down on poorer whites, but they also prey on them. They have internalized something like an ethnic outgroup contempt for their victims. The amount of harm done to the American family and society in general by these types over the last few decades is stupefying. It's a wonder we can still get by.

    Attorneys and judges enable and prosper from other people's misery, and then turn around and say something like "these people are morally deficient." They are worse than pimps precisely because of their stunning hypocrisy and their tendency to dress up the instruments of dispossession, such as court-enforced feminism, as "humanitarian" and "progressive."

    Even Murray gets in on it. He goes on and on about how lousy the men in Fishtown are without once stopping to wonder how many of the congregants at his fancy church are making a living putting these men in exactly this position. How many blue collar men earning good wages and working hard manage to keep their marriages intact? Not many. And then that decent pay gets spread three ways: one for babymomma, one for the asshole lawyer, and whatever's left for the working man. Why on earth would Fishtown boys step up to the plate and get married under that regime?

    Something has to be done about the complete and utter moral depravity of our predatory professional class long before we can even think about addressing the faults of hapless underclass whites, who are the least part of the problem.

    Good critique of Murray. He can’t put himself in the Fishtown boys’ shoes because he can’t see the crap shoot that marriage has become for men. For a social scientist, Murray seems devoid of the social reality of mating and marriage today. He can analyze tables of demographic data all day long–but he couldn’t answer (your question) why would Fishtown boys get married under the current regime?

    • Replies: @biz
    That doesn't add up. Belmont's boys, with their future high earnings potential, have a lot more to lose from divorce than Fishtown's, and yet almost all of Belmont's boys do end up getting married. Clearly there is much more that determines people's expectation to get married than the potential for divorce rape. Furthermore, if your contention is that Fishtown's boys are acting out of their financial interest in not getting married, then why are they still impregnating Fishtown's girls, and thus having their paychecks or aid checks docked?
  181. @Forbes
    This.

    The female desire for attention from as many people as possible is immense, and men repeatedly underestimate it. It is a flip side of female insecurity.
     
    True.

    In 30 years of people watching in Manhattan bars, you'd be excused for thinking the sexes have changed roles--a result of a feminized education system, female entitlement, "you go grrl!" encouragement, and manliness viewed as dysfunction. Young women provocatively parade about dressed promiscuously, behaving assertively, aggressively (as men once did), while young men are mostly passive, awaiting for consent to be granted an audience. The young men are paranoid to the point of paralysis at the mere mention of the topic of sexual harassment/rape while being used as meal/drinks tickets.

    Pathetic.

    “In 30 years of people watching in Manhattan bars, you’d be excused for thinking the sexes have changed roles–a result of a feminized education system, female entitlement, “you go grrl!” encouragement, and manliness viewed as dysfunction.”

    I don’t need to go to a bar in Manhattan to see this totally unnatural and deviant exchange of roles. I see it in movies and T.V. shows (which is one reason why I watch so few newly released movies and so little T.V.) I also see it in real life.

    To paraphrase Henry James, “The sight of which is an affliction of which even time has never blunted the edge.”

  182. @charles w abbott
    "Malt does more than Milton can
    To justify God's ways to man."

    Buckley has quoted it, and recommended serving beer on campus after 4 p.m. (IIRC).

    Any web search till turn up the attestation to "A Shropshire Lad" by A E Housman, which is as far back as I have traced the rhyme.

    Ah, Housman. My favorite modern poet.

    Yes, the phrase “And malt does more than Milton can
    To justify God’s ways to man” is to be found in the poem “Terence, this is stupid stuff”, from “A Shropshire Lad”.

    I know I shouldn’t put the title of the collection in quotation marks but that’s all I know how to do.

    • Replies: @charles w abbott
    Housman has good rhyme and meter. I find him addictive in the same way as Lewis Carroll--fun to memorize just so he's always available on demand. "To an athlete dying young" is anthologized many places--it made no impresssion on me, so I dodged it in school or just never noticed it.

    The couplet sounds like it is pro-drinking but the longer passage is a caution against over-indulgence. It takes a while to get to that punchline. and meanwhile it's fun!

    "Say for what were hopyards meant
    or why was Burton built on Trent
    Ale man, ale's the stuff to drink
    For fellows who it hurts to think"

    For that reason, "Terrence this is stupid stuff" is anthologized in Bill Bennet's _Book of Virtues_.

    Somebody called Housman "The English Nietzsche"--Joseph O'Donnell, apparently, in _Avatars of the Word_. It's kind of funny, but maybe overdone...
  183. Detecting a blindspot among commenters who blame women for moral depravity while excusing men who drink themselves into oblivion, abandon their families, etc.

    • Replies: @Bill P

    Detecting a blindspot among commenters who blame women for moral depravity while excusing men who drink themselves into oblivion, abandon their families, etc.
     
    Hey smart guy, how do you explain 70% of divorces initiated by wives, mostly for no fault? This poor abandoned women schtick is wearing as thin as a pair of Chinese shoes.
  184. @Steve Sailer
    Blacks are less dysfunctional in 2016 smoking a lot of weed than in 1991 smoking a lot of crack.

    In the short term, definitely yes—nobody wants violent crackhouses back en vogue. Of course, with cocaine more plentiful than it was in 1991, the demand for crack is way down.

    However, the long-term effects of marijuana have been significantly downplayed by Hollywood over the last 40-50 years. There is a strong link between prolonged pot smoking and schizophrenia, something that Hollywood loves to poke fun at as nonsensical (hence the joke in Animal House when Donald Sutherland hands the student some pot: “I won’t go schizo, will I?”). But the link is real and disturbing.

    Much like long-term alcohol abuse, long-term pot abuse can cause a lot of problems, and we aren’t quite sure how much.

    • Replies: @E. Rekshun
    There is a strong link between prolonged pot smoking and schizophrenia


    But doesn't schizophrenia usually appear in the late teens to early twenties?

    I've always wondered about the affect of prolonged pot smoking on the lungs. It's got to be very bad, and I never seem to read much about this. The pro-pot people conveniently ignore it and there doesn't seem to be much strong argument from the docs and the anti-pot people.

    , @The Anti-Gnostic
    Good points by you and Sailer. And the schizophrenia part is very interesting. I live in a city full of schizophrenic black men who wander the streets and there sure seem to be more of them every year. Did marijuana play a role? Or chugging Everclear for a decade? Or crack?
  185. I’m a lifelong teetotaler from a family of alcoholics.

    Teetotalers lead boring lives. But I’ve adapted by becoming even more boring than my life. So it’s kewl.

    I do wonder what kind of a drunk I’d be. Probably a nasty one.

  186. @snorlax
    To be a bit un-PC, the target audience for a show like Honey Boo Boo is white trash, whose self-confidence is boosted by being able to think of themselves as not white trash, compared with the people in the show.

    Here in liberal elitist Massachusetts I don't think I know anyone who'd be caught dead watching HBB, or who'd even have any desire to watch such a show.

    Indeed, just as I expected, Facebook searches for my friends who like Here Comes Honey Boo Boo and my friends who like Toddlers & Tiaras return no one.

    The local publications like to riff on the all-around brilliance of “liberal, elite” Massachusetts, especially when test scores come out. I always ask how anyone can spend so much time extolling their own brilliance when they elect the likes of Lurch and Fauxcahontas to the Senate.

    • LOL: Ivy
  187. @anon
    The article mentions a lot of things but not which specific group is doing the dying.

    Given the media is owned by the people who benefit from cheap labor and off-shoring i'm going to guess this is deliberate which means it's blue collar and the comments about college educated drinking is chaff fired off to distract.

    So female version of white death imo, same reason behind it as the men but more passively destructive with fewer dramatic suicides and less driving too fast.

    That's not to say the other comments aren't right vis a vis college women's drinking habits - but if they were the ones actually dying from it the article would say so imo.

    economic warfare kills

    #

    on a completely separate point - *if* weakness to alcohol is inversely proportional to how many generations a population's ancestors grew grains as their staple diet then black people should have that weakness

    but they don't seem to (although my baseline is Glaswegians so I may have a false impression)

    if it's true though - is it simply they prefer other drugs or do they have some alcohol resistance somehow?

    on a completely separate point – *if* weakness to alcohol is inversely proportional to how many generations a population’s ancestors grew grains as their staple diet then black people should have that weakness

    but they don’t seem to (although my baseline is Glaswegians so I may have a false impression)

    if it’s true though – is it simply they prefer other drugs or do they have some alcohol resistance somehow?

    I’m also curious about this. One of the most interesting thing about the FBI crime stats is that one of the few areas where blacks are represented at nearly equal rates to whites is alcohol related offences.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Alcohol is an area where blacks and whites seem pretty equal statistically.
  188. @JohnnyD
    I wonder if this problem is worse with single white women. Single and independent white women are said to be happier than housewives, but the opposite seems true.

    Single here, 54, pretty happy. I have a new dog, she loves to walk and walk. I love to walk and walk! Never married. I used to be very good looking and had my choice of men, but due to my family background, I could never put my complete trust in a man. I wish that I could have, but it never did happen.

    I would not touch alcohol for most of my life and was hesitant to even take an aspirin, although I suffered from severe migraines, because I had parents who were alcholics and drug addicts. At the age of 48, I started dating a man who lived on a boat. He would make me a cocktail and we would sit on the deck and watch the world go by. I took to the cocktails like a duck to water. I truly did not know what I had been missing!

    I have been drinking, every night, ever since. Blood will tell. After menopause, I care not for men. I still like them, but feel no need for a man’s company as I used to do. I like the freedom of it. Before, biologically, I was all about men, attracting them and pleasing them. Now, I do what I want. I eat what I want, look how I want, watch what kind of movies I want. I don’t miss being a Grandma, but I do miss my parents who died young. I, however, would not mind dying relatively young (my mom died at the age of 57, my dad at 60) to avoid all the physical misery that comes with old age. I don’t want to live past 75. Drinking may help with that. I think that I need to drink more, though.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    If you don't mind my asking, vaguely curious about your ethnic background? Anglo, Scottish, etc? recent immigrants or longer history in the country?
    , @Bill P

    I, however, would not mind dying relatively young (my mom died at the age of 57, my dad at 60) to avoid all the physical misery that comes with old age. I don’t want to live past 75. Drinking may help with that. I think that I need to drink more, though.
     
    Faith gets you through the misery better than the liquor, which is just a temporary diversion. And we all have it, whether we admit it or not.
  189. @res

    on a completely separate point – *if* weakness to alcohol is inversely proportional to how many generations a population’s ancestors grew grains as their staple diet then black people should have that weakness

    but they don’t seem to (although my baseline is Glaswegians so I may have a false impression)

    if it’s true though – is it simply they prefer other drugs or do they have some alcohol resistance somehow?
     
    I'm also curious about this. One of the most interesting thing about the FBI crime stats is that one of the few areas where blacks are represented at nearly equal rates to whites is alcohol related offences.

    Alcohol is an area where blacks and whites seem pretty equal statistically.

  190. @JohnnyD
    I wonder if this problem is worse with single white women. Single and independent white women are said to be happier than housewives, but the opposite seems true.

    Self-reporting is a not a great method.

  191. @Michelle
    Single here, 54, pretty happy. I have a new dog, she loves to walk and walk. I love to walk and walk! Never married. I used to be very good looking and had my choice of men, but due to my family background, I could never put my complete trust in a man. I wish that I could have, but it never did happen.

    I would not touch alcohol for most of my life and was hesitant to even take an aspirin, although I suffered from severe migraines, because I had parents who were alcholics and drug addicts. At the age of 48, I started dating a man who lived on a boat. He would make me a cocktail and we would sit on the deck and watch the world go by. I took to the cocktails like a duck to water. I truly did not know what I had been missing!

    I have been drinking, every night, ever since. Blood will tell. After menopause, I care not for men. I still like them, but feel no need for a man's company as I used to do. I like the freedom of it. Before, biologically, I was all about men, attracting them and pleasing them. Now, I do what I want. I eat what I want, look how I want, watch what kind of movies I want. I don't miss being a Grandma, but I do miss my parents who died young. I, however, would not mind dying relatively young (my mom died at the age of 57, my dad at 60) to avoid all the physical misery that comes with old age. I don't want to live past 75. Drinking may help with that. I think that I need to drink more, though.

    If you don’t mind my asking, vaguely curious about your ethnic background? Anglo, Scottish, etc? recent immigrants or longer history in the country?

  192. @Monogamoose
    Detecting a blindspot among commenters who blame women for moral depravity while excusing men who drink themselves into oblivion, abandon their families, etc.

    Detecting a blindspot among commenters who blame women for moral depravity while excusing men who drink themselves into oblivion, abandon their families, etc.

    Hey smart guy, how do you explain 70% of divorces initiated by wives, mostly for no fault? This poor abandoned women schtick is wearing as thin as a pair of Chinese shoes.

    • Replies: @Formerly CARealist
    I just sat and thought, in about 20 seconds, of 4 women I know who were totally abandoned by their husbands. I'm sure those guys thought they had good reasons, but the fact remains that they left, wouldn't go to counseling, and didn't look back. Sucks, big time for those women.

    You probably know men who've been treated worse and I won't argue. If it were up to me there would be no no-fault divorce. We've tried it now for 30 years or so and it's been a colossal failure for everyone.
  193. During the Ellis Island days you had cartoon strips of alcoholic Irish & German immigrants, but never alcoholic Italian & Jewish immigrants.

  194. @Michelle
    Single here, 54, pretty happy. I have a new dog, she loves to walk and walk. I love to walk and walk! Never married. I used to be very good looking and had my choice of men, but due to my family background, I could never put my complete trust in a man. I wish that I could have, but it never did happen.

    I would not touch alcohol for most of my life and was hesitant to even take an aspirin, although I suffered from severe migraines, because I had parents who were alcholics and drug addicts. At the age of 48, I started dating a man who lived on a boat. He would make me a cocktail and we would sit on the deck and watch the world go by. I took to the cocktails like a duck to water. I truly did not know what I had been missing!

    I have been drinking, every night, ever since. Blood will tell. After menopause, I care not for men. I still like them, but feel no need for a man's company as I used to do. I like the freedom of it. Before, biologically, I was all about men, attracting them and pleasing them. Now, I do what I want. I eat what I want, look how I want, watch what kind of movies I want. I don't miss being a Grandma, but I do miss my parents who died young. I, however, would not mind dying relatively young (my mom died at the age of 57, my dad at 60) to avoid all the physical misery that comes with old age. I don't want to live past 75. Drinking may help with that. I think that I need to drink more, though.

    I, however, would not mind dying relatively young (my mom died at the age of 57, my dad at 60) to avoid all the physical misery that comes with old age. I don’t want to live past 75. Drinking may help with that. I think that I need to drink more, though.

    Faith gets you through the misery better than the liquor, which is just a temporary diversion. And we all have it, whether we admit it or not.

    • Replies: @Desiderius

    Faith gets you through the misery better than the liquor, which is just a temporary diversion.
     
    They both fill a spiritual void, as it were.

    And we all have it, whether we admit it or not.
     
    Those with a skeptical bent seem to have less, though also perhaps less need. That too can be a gift, and one at times much needed.


    When I consider how my light is spent
    Ere half my days in this dark world and wide,
    And that one talent which is death to hide
    Lodg'd with me useless, though my soul more bent
    To serve therewith my Maker, and present
    My true account, lest he returning chide;
    "Doth God exact day-labour, light denied?"
    I fondly ask. But Patience to prevent
    That murmur, soon replies: "God doth not need
    Either man's work or his own gifts; who best
    Bear his mild yoke, they serve him best. His state
    Is kingly. Thousands at his bidding speed
    And post o'er land and ocean without rest:
    They also serve who only stand and wait.

    - Milton
  195. @Chrisnonymous
    The quality of the alcohol really, really does have an affect on the outcomes, and it's not only about the hangover. The buzz from a higher quality wine is a higher quality buzz, too, that produces more relaxation and openness relative to the stupefacient effects.

    The quality of the alcohol really, really does have an affect on the outcomes, and it’s not only about the hangover. The buzz from a higher quality wine is a higher quality buzz, too, that produces more relaxation and openness relative to the stupefacient effects.

    Wait, you mean to tell me that Jose Cuervo, Dewar’s, Taaka Supreme and Old Charter are of inferior quality? Perish the thought. When I was 20 and broke, those were FIGHTING words.

  196. @Forbes
    I've never found it that complicated to pace oneself--but it does require self-knowledge, self-discipline, and self-control. Meaning: Ignoring peer pressure. Drinking alcohol for enjoyment is not a race or a contest--one whose prize is usually a hangover and a wicked headache. If going to bed is an option--that's probably the choice you should make. Missing some good times will mean missing all the bad times.

    I don’t mean to give the impression that bad hangovers were a regular occurrence in my life, but the ones I did have were very memorable. I knew how to pace myself, but my occasional failures in that regard make for more entertaining and instructive subject matter.

  197. @Bill P
    Real upper class people - the mega-wealthy - behave as they please, and can be almost as trashy as underclass whites. What Murray is talking about is the upper middle class; the high professionals like successful physicians, attorneys and academics.

    These people look down on poorer whites, but they also prey on them. They have internalized something like an ethnic outgroup contempt for their victims. The amount of harm done to the American family and society in general by these types over the last few decades is stupefying. It's a wonder we can still get by.

    Attorneys and judges enable and prosper from other people's misery, and then turn around and say something like "these people are morally deficient." They are worse than pimps precisely because of their stunning hypocrisy and their tendency to dress up the instruments of dispossession, such as court-enforced feminism, as "humanitarian" and "progressive."

    Even Murray gets in on it. He goes on and on about how lousy the men in Fishtown are without once stopping to wonder how many of the congregants at his fancy church are making a living putting these men in exactly this position. How many blue collar men earning good wages and working hard manage to keep their marriages intact? Not many. And then that decent pay gets spread three ways: one for babymomma, one for the asshole lawyer, and whatever's left for the working man. Why on earth would Fishtown boys step up to the plate and get married under that regime?

    Something has to be done about the complete and utter moral depravity of our predatory professional class long before we can even think about addressing the faults of hapless underclass whites, who are the least part of the problem.

    I think you nailed this one, even though you forgot to mention the doctors who overcharge the hell out of everybody.

    I’ve always said that the UM class screws the lower classes just as much as the One Percent – and a lot more directly.

  198. @Opinionator
    Yet every generation in human history reproduced itself without those things. Women even reproduced when the chances of death from pregnancy were pretty high. Yet you won’t have kids because there isn’t enough of a welfare state? Because you might go from being a high middle class American to a low middle class American? Oh the horrors! Going from the 99.99th percentile of living standards across human history to the 99.98th percentile!

    Interesting points. So what's the solution?

    Interesting points. So what’s the solution?

    If the problem is cultural, then so is the solution. Develop a culture that is the opposite of what we have now, glorify family life and motherhood, expose the emptiness of careerism and vapid materialism.

    • Replies: @Opinionator
    Response acknowledged.
  199. @Bill P

    Detecting a blindspot among commenters who blame women for moral depravity while excusing men who drink themselves into oblivion, abandon their families, etc.
     
    Hey smart guy, how do you explain 70% of divorces initiated by wives, mostly for no fault? This poor abandoned women schtick is wearing as thin as a pair of Chinese shoes.

    I just sat and thought, in about 20 seconds, of 4 women I know who were totally abandoned by their husbands. I’m sure those guys thought they had good reasons, but the fact remains that they left, wouldn’t go to counseling, and didn’t look back. Sucks, big time for those women.

    You probably know men who’ve been treated worse and I won’t argue. If it were up to me there would be no no-fault divorce. We’ve tried it now for 30 years or so and it’s been a colossal failure for everyone.

    • Agree: Desiderius
    • Replies: @dfordoom

    If it were up to me there would be no no-fault divorce. We’ve tried it now for 30 years or so and it’s been a colossal failure for everyone.
     
    Agreed. No-fault divorce and the contraceptive pill have dealt the family a death blow.
  200. @Forbes
    You've missed the distinction that Murray makes as between lifestyle and politics regarding upper class vs lower class.

    The route to staying out of poverty, and having a middle class (or better) lifestyle include some very simple rules that (Murray notes) the upper class does not promote, and does not criticize when it fails to appear: stay in school, graduate--from college, if so inclined; obtain full time employment; don't use drugs or commit crimes; get married before having children.

    The elite political critique expounded by the lapdog media and Hillary Clinton during the election was the ad hominem of "racist, sexist, misogynist, xenophobe, etc., etc."

    But if the standard were in fact not criticizing anyone for anything (i.e. Niceanity), then that would cover the ad hominem attacks as well, indeed especially ad hominem attacks. That it demonstrably does not means that that is not the standard.

  201. @Bill P

    I, however, would not mind dying relatively young (my mom died at the age of 57, my dad at 60) to avoid all the physical misery that comes with old age. I don’t want to live past 75. Drinking may help with that. I think that I need to drink more, though.
     
    Faith gets you through the misery better than the liquor, which is just a temporary diversion. And we all have it, whether we admit it or not.

    Faith gets you through the misery better than the liquor, which is just a temporary diversion.

    They both fill a spiritual void, as it were.

    And we all have it, whether we admit it or not.

    Those with a skeptical bent seem to have less, though also perhaps less need. That too can be a gift, and one at times much needed.

    When I consider how my light is spent
    Ere half my days in this dark world and wide,
    And that one talent which is death to hide
    Lodg’d with me useless, though my soul more bent
    To serve therewith my Maker, and present
    My true account, lest he returning chide;
    “Doth God exact day-labour, light denied?”
    I fondly ask. But Patience to prevent
    That murmur, soon replies: “God doth not need
    Either man’s work or his own gifts; who best
    Bear his mild yoke, they serve him best. His state
    Is kingly. Thousands at his bidding speed
    And post o’er land and ocean without rest:
    They also serve who only stand and wait.

    - Milton

  202. Steve, I thought of that, but that drop would have been much earlier, wouldn’t it? It would have come in the MADD era, when people were dealing with the fear of DUIs. This drop came much later.

    But nonetheless, that’s the right kind of guess.

  203. @Hepp

    Interesting points. So what’s the solution?
     
    If the problem is cultural, then so is the solution. Develop a culture that is the opposite of what we have now, glorify family life and motherhood, expose the emptiness of careerism and vapid materialism.

    Response acknowledged.

  204. @Forbes
    You've missed the distinction that Murray makes as between lifestyle and politics regarding upper class vs lower class.

    The route to staying out of poverty, and having a middle class (or better) lifestyle include some very simple rules that (Murray notes) the upper class does not promote, and does not criticize when it fails to appear: stay in school, graduate--from college, if so inclined; obtain full time employment; don't use drugs or commit crimes; get married before having children.

    The elite political critique expounded by the lapdog media and Hillary Clinton during the election was the ad hominem of "racist, sexist, misogynist, xenophobe, etc., etc."

    The route to staying out of poverty, and having a middle class (or better) lifestyle

    Or, even more simply – avoid stupid people, stupid places, and stupid things.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    That's pretty damn hard to do right now!


    www.peakstupidity.com

    In case the software is stripping the tags: www dot peakstupidity dot com


    (Sorry, not as bad as some spammers, right? I've read the entire thread. Good stuff, especially the anti-feminist posts. Chikcahhika, you are a caricature of the people that are EXACTLY who've screwed up the Western World. Nice job, blondie!

  205. @whorefinder
    In the short term, definitely yes---nobody wants violent crackhouses back en vogue. Of course, with cocaine more plentiful than it was in 1991, the demand for crack is way down.

    However, the long-term effects of marijuana have been significantly downplayed by Hollywood over the last 40-50 years. There is a strong link between prolonged pot smoking and schizophrenia, something that Hollywood loves to poke fun at as nonsensical (hence the joke in Animal House when Donald Sutherland hands the student some pot: "I won't go schizo, will I?"). But the link is real and disturbing.

    Much like long-term alcohol abuse, long-term pot abuse can cause a lot of problems, and we aren't quite sure how much.

    There is a strong link between prolonged pot smoking and schizophrenia

    But doesn’t schizophrenia usually appear in the late teens to early twenties?

    I’ve always wondered about the affect of prolonged pot smoking on the lungs. It’s got to be very bad, and I never seem to read much about this. The pro-pot people conveniently ignore it and there doesn’t seem to be much strong argument from the docs and the anti-pot people.

  206. @Whiskey
    The complaint by the feminist woman about alcohol. Where to begin? Rage at lower class men ogling her? That her workplace is not fairy dust and unicorn farts? That everything in life is not arranged to her satisfaction?

    This I think is the result of Daddy's Girl being spoiled all her life. It used to be that even Upper Class got the brutal talk by their mothers, with Daddy being a nice but distant part of their life. The Talk included limitations by Father Time on their beauty, ability to bear children, and attract the best man. That once married, they could not turn back time like Cher (and get another butt tattoo) to when they were nineteen. Women knew the score by the time they were seventeen or so; their mothers made sure they knew it as a matter of survival. Even middle class girls were quickly burdened by responsibilities -- when married they had to help run the business or practice of their husbands, while keeping house and looking after the kids. It wasn't easy but that was life.

    Spoiled, lazy, angry at fading beauty, and not being beautiful enough (that line about lower class "janitors" and "drunks on the street" ogling her was a huge tell) -- yeah no wonder Daddy's little Princess who was not an actual Princess, drank too much. See Hillary Clinton, it seems if you believe Wikileaks. Drunk at 4:30 pm. This seems to be part of much of the White female professional class. Most real beauties don't drink too much -- bad for the complexion.

    About 98% of women's rage, issues, drinking etc. are related to not being beautiful enough. Its rare that a Victoria's Secret Model has that problem. Carrie Fisher -- cute but not beautiful and not secure enough in her apparently considerable script-rewriting skills to just leverage off that and settle for the best man she could get in her early twenties is a good example though a sad one.

    One thing stands out in the graph. Asian women hardly drink at all and they have remained the same in alcohol related deaths since 1999. Hispanic women only a bit more. Black women declined for much of the time, from a higher point than White women in 1999. Now White women are the only group to INCREASE and at that, significantly, from 1999 levels, absent a small uptick for Black women very late in the time period. Why are a lot more White women dying from booze-related issues than Black women in 1999?

    For me its the aging of the spoiled cohort that drinks away the lack of fantasy life they had always imagined -- being the star, center of attention, beautiful, with the hot, dominant Alpha guy, and fabulous famous lifestyle. That's Daddy's Girl raised to the nth degree and we are seeing the fallout.

    I never thought I’d ever agree with you, Whiskey, but you’ve nailed it. Weak daddies raise sluts, everytime.

  207. @in the middle
    Women are drinking to death because all they see is feminized males around. What has become of males in our society. I saw a female with a sign saying 'NO, you make me a sandwich!" with an angry and sort of fatty face. Now, think about it. Women in general dislike a guy just because in the media all you see is deranged guys, lusting after any female in sight, and behaving at the same time effeminate at the same time. No boundaries, no respect, just sex, sex, sex, in both. Women as shown as lustful and willing right away to go to bed with any body for that one night stand. SO, in general the media has created a horrible monster where woman became what they are portrayed on television and the movies. Slots, whores, etc. So the same men who made them those things, are refusing to commit to any of those women. Guys are hypocritically looking for a 'decent girl', while in their minds think to know that you cannot find them.
    My best friend went to the Philippines to find according to him a good wife. He found one, way younger than him and lives there ever since, denouncing his cheating exes as whores and worst in his native Texas. So american women, this is for you. Stop mimicking the horrible life of so called celebrities, so you don't become as they are, a bunch of depraved people who are miserable as can be, and just like you, also end their own lives. Be yourselves, imitate no one, and respect your self, and eventually a good guy will come your way, when he realizes that you are 'different' and not part of the lonely miserable pack of drunks, and suicidal.

    respectfully,

    in the middle.

    “Women are drinking to death because all they see is feminized males around.”

    Today’s men are not more effeminate compared to yesterday’s men. There are a myriad of reasons why women are increasingly binge drinking. Social norms have changed. Young women have disposable income for entertainment. Taxes on alcohol have not risen along with the Consumer Price Index, so wine, beer and liquor have gotten cheaper over time in real dollars.

    “My best friend went to the Philippines to find according to him a good wife. He found one, way younger than him and lives there ever since, denouncing his cheating exes as whores and worst in his native Texas. So american women, this is for you.”

    Perhaps you ought follow your friend’s path and search for a wife there. I suggest reading Gorilla Mindset. Your bitterness will melt away.

  208. A holiday ad for some sort of mall store showed a mousy woman staring into the camera while kids screamed in the background. Slowly she takes out an enormous wine glass.

    Unbelievable. Stores will do anything to relate to customers, including encouraging young mothers to drink rather than care for and discipline children.

    File under “going to hell in a hand basket”.

  209. @Bill P
    Real upper class people - the mega-wealthy - behave as they please, and can be almost as trashy as underclass whites. What Murray is talking about is the upper middle class; the high professionals like successful physicians, attorneys and academics.

    These people look down on poorer whites, but they also prey on them. They have internalized something like an ethnic outgroup contempt for their victims. The amount of harm done to the American family and society in general by these types over the last few decades is stupefying. It's a wonder we can still get by.

    Attorneys and judges enable and prosper from other people's misery, and then turn around and say something like "these people are morally deficient." They are worse than pimps precisely because of their stunning hypocrisy and their tendency to dress up the instruments of dispossession, such as court-enforced feminism, as "humanitarian" and "progressive."

    Even Murray gets in on it. He goes on and on about how lousy the men in Fishtown are without once stopping to wonder how many of the congregants at his fancy church are making a living putting these men in exactly this position. How many blue collar men earning good wages and working hard manage to keep their marriages intact? Not many. And then that decent pay gets spread three ways: one for babymomma, one for the asshole lawyer, and whatever's left for the working man. Why on earth would Fishtown boys step up to the plate and get married under that regime?

    Something has to be done about the complete and utter moral depravity of our predatory professional class long before we can even think about addressing the faults of hapless underclass whites, who are the least part of the problem.

    Yes, I was using “upper classes” as a short-hand for the upper-middle class which populates Murray’s Belmont, not the Paris Hilton degenerate super-rich. I thought that was obvious.

    As for the hypothesized connection between the supposed malfeasance of Belmont’s professionals (lawyers, judges) on Fishtown’s marriage rate, I am not buying it. It isn’t fear of divorce and unfair child support payments that leads people toward all of the babymomma babydaddy stuff. Yes, fear of divorce and child support is real out there, but what it leads to is MTGOW, not babydaddy-ism. People who are afraid of the court system do not generally impregnate. Fishtown’s men and women are also not afraid of divorce, because marriage itself isn’t even in their plan.

    The reason that Fishtown’s men and women, not to mention their black counterparts, are not orienting their lives around forming stable nuclear families – from which most of their other problems flow – is mostly because they have almost completely lost the expectation to do so and the social sanction against not doing so.

  210. @Forbes
    Good critique of Murray. He can't put himself in the Fishtown boys' shoes because he can't see the crap shoot that marriage has become for men. For a social scientist, Murray seems devoid of the social reality of mating and marriage today. He can analyze tables of demographic data all day long--but he couldn't answer (your question) why would Fishtown boys get married under the current regime?

    That doesn’t add up. Belmont’s boys, with their future high earnings potential, have a lot more to lose from divorce than Fishtown’s, and yet almost all of Belmont’s boys do end up getting married. Clearly there is much more that determines people’s expectation to get married than the potential for divorce rape. Furthermore, if your contention is that Fishtown’s boys are acting out of their financial interest in not getting married, then why are they still impregnating Fishtown’s girls, and thus having their paychecks or aid checks docked?

  211. @whorefinder
    In the short term, definitely yes---nobody wants violent crackhouses back en vogue. Of course, with cocaine more plentiful than it was in 1991, the demand for crack is way down.

    However, the long-term effects of marijuana have been significantly downplayed by Hollywood over the last 40-50 years. There is a strong link between prolonged pot smoking and schizophrenia, something that Hollywood loves to poke fun at as nonsensical (hence the joke in Animal House when Donald Sutherland hands the student some pot: "I won't go schizo, will I?"). But the link is real and disturbing.

    Much like long-term alcohol abuse, long-term pot abuse can cause a lot of problems, and we aren't quite sure how much.

    Good points by you and Sailer. And the schizophrenia part is very interesting. I live in a city full of schizophrenic black men who wander the streets and there sure seem to be more of them every year. Did marijuana play a role? Or chugging Everclear for a decade? Or crack?

  212. @whorefinder
    Middle aged divorcees are lonely and miserable as henpecking, unfeminine harpies. No no man wants them; they never had children (or enough children); never were full-time married moms; they deliberately squelched most of their natural femininity and coquettishness; they slept around, making it harder to bond with each successive partner; and they focused on meaningless, masculine, empty careers instead of home and family. They rejected their religions and their biological instincts and gave into secular existentialism and epicurianism. And, despite lesbians best efforts, most aren't drawn to the abusive Sappho side.

    So they drink themselves silly to forget.

    These women would be so fulfilled as happy grandmas, cooking roasts on Sundays for their hubbies while the latter go off to work for them 5 days a week, babysitting the grandkids, and being ladies. It actually hurts me to see them at this point, because it seems a point of no return. If they had youth they could perhaps reform their ways and find a (broken) man willing to take them in and make a go of it as a family. But as middle-aged women and beyond, they offer nothing to men to want them.

    I don’t exactly disagree with this comment, but people with short memories, or perhaps people who were not around in the late 1970s* never seem to grasp that young men welcomed feminism at that time and even pretended to like it. It meant that they could date/sleep around with an available pool of women without having to worry about marrying them. They liked to ask if you considered yourself “independent” or a “feminist” and if the answer was no (it seldom was because who wants to say that she’s not independent?), they disappeared. The choice that the sexual revolution + feminism imposed on women was either to enter unstable sexual relationships with uncommitted young men, or don’t “date” at all.

    *The feminism of the early 1970s did not emphasize careers. It was more Marxist in its goals – destroy capitalism, fight the class structure – which was why it called itself Women’s Liberation and rejected the term feminism, until the media turned “Women’s Lib” into a joke.

  213. @E. Rekshun
    The route to staying out of poverty, and having a middle class (or better) lifestyle

    Or, even more simply - avoid stupid people, stupid places, and stupid things.

    That’s pretty damn hard to do right now!

    http://www.peakstupidity.com

    In case the software is stripping the tags: www dot peakstupidity dot com

    (Sorry, not as bad as some spammers, right? I’ve read the entire thread. Good stuff, especially the anti-feminist posts. Chikcahhika, you are a caricature of the people that are EXACTLY who’ve screwed up the Western World. Nice job, blondie!

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    Oh, man, that's embarrassing in front of Steve Sailer:

    I meant "Heckuva job, Blondie!"
  214. @Achmed E. Newman
    That's pretty damn hard to do right now!


    www.peakstupidity.com

    In case the software is stripping the tags: www dot peakstupidity dot com


    (Sorry, not as bad as some spammers, right? I've read the entire thread. Good stuff, especially the anti-feminist posts. Chikcahhika, you are a caricature of the people that are EXACTLY who've screwed up the Western World. Nice job, blondie!

    Oh, man, that’s embarrassing in front of Steve Sailer:

    I meant “Heckuva job, Blondie!”

  215. @Formerly CARealist
    I just sat and thought, in about 20 seconds, of 4 women I know who were totally abandoned by their husbands. I'm sure those guys thought they had good reasons, but the fact remains that they left, wouldn't go to counseling, and didn't look back. Sucks, big time for those women.

    You probably know men who've been treated worse and I won't argue. If it were up to me there would be no no-fault divorce. We've tried it now for 30 years or so and it's been a colossal failure for everyone.

    If it were up to me there would be no no-fault divorce. We’ve tried it now for 30 years or so and it’s been a colossal failure for everyone.

    Agreed. No-fault divorce and the contraceptive pill have dealt the family a death blow.

  216. @El Dato
    I was waiting for the occasion to post this!

    Misato Katsuragi, 29, operations director of NERV (rank of captain), drinking her Yebisu can in the fricking morning:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygFOJKiftW0

    I love you.

    What could be better than lonely, bitter Misato?

  217. @Opinionator
    Is this the same thing as the so-called "White Death"? Why aren't trends with men noted for comparison?

    A couple of weeks ago, I pulled CDC stats for mortality rates by manner of death, race, gender, year, and age from 1999 – 2015, then assigned the manners of death to broad categories. (It’s pretty amazing how many ways there are to die, and even more amazing we keep track of them. Did you know that people can–and do–die by pretending to die?)

    One of my categories I called “self-destructive”. The category included suicides, and all drug and alcohol related deaths. Stick it in a chart and it’s clear: we’ve got a problem, white man.

    Until recently, Native American males between 15-54 years old generally ran at twice the rate or more of everyone else in self-inflicted deaths. High rates of self-inflicted death among Native Americans isn’t surprising. Natives are, in fact, a defeated people, and reservations are especially bleak places. Some cursory research reinforces the idea that a defeat in war leads to high rates of suicide among the defeated people. Both Germany and Japan experienced high civilian suicide rates after WWII, for example (at least, anecdotally), and nothing says defeated like suicide.

    Well below Natives, whites and blacks had comparable rates and Asians somewhat lower. Then in about 2008 (insert portentous music) whites and blacks began diverging. Today, black rates have approached Asian rates in the US, while whites are neck and neck with Natives–and in 2009, 2010, 2011, and 2014 actually exceeded the Native rate!

    Here’s a link to my chart:

    • Replies: @E. Rekshun
    Then in about 2008 (insert portentous music) whites and blacks began diverging.

    I seem to remember an historic political event in the U.S. in 2008.
    , @Opinionator
    Thank you for the post. Probably some people think of the election when they see "2008," but that year also coincided with the financial crisis, which probably had a disproportionately adverse effect on White men versus Blacks.

    High rates of self-inflicted death among Native Americans isn’t surprising. Natives are, in fact, a defeated people, and reservations are especially bleak places. Some cursory research reinforces the idea that a defeat in war leads to high rates of suicide among the defeated people. Both Germany and Japan experienced high civilian suicide rates after WWII, for example (at least, anecdotally), and nothing says defeated like suicide.

    Contemporary Whites in the United States might also quakify as a defeated people. Very sad what has happened.

    (That comment does not refer only to White Southerners. However, do you have any awareness of what happened with suicide rates among White Southerners immediately after the Civil War?)

  218. @Craig Nelsen
    A couple of weeks ago, I pulled CDC stats for mortality rates by manner of death, race, gender, year, and age from 1999 - 2015, then assigned the manners of death to broad categories. (It's pretty amazing how many ways there are to die, and even more amazing we keep track of them. Did you know that people can--and do--die by pretending to die?)

    One of my categories I called "self-destructive". The category included suicides, and all drug and alcohol related deaths. Stick it in a chart and it's clear: we've got a problem, white man.

    Until recently, Native American males between 15-54 years old generally ran at twice the rate or more of everyone else in self-inflicted deaths. High rates of self-inflicted death among Native Americans isn't surprising. Natives are, in fact, a defeated people, and reservations are especially bleak places. Some cursory research reinforces the idea that a defeat in war leads to high rates of suicide among the defeated people. Both Germany and Japan experienced high civilian suicide rates after WWII, for example (at least, anecdotally), and nothing says defeated like suicide.

    Well below Natives, whites and blacks had comparable rates and Asians somewhat lower. Then in about 2008 (insert portentous music) whites and blacks began diverging. Today, black rates have approached Asian rates in the US, while whites are neck and neck with Natives--and in 2009, 2010, 2011, and 2014 actually exceeded the Native rate!

    Here's a link to my chart:

    http://robinsonjeffersboxingclub.com/img/grfx/self-death.jpg

    Then in about 2008 (insert portentous music) whites and blacks began diverging.

    I seem to remember an historic political event in the U.S. in 2008.

  219. @Kylie
    Ah, Housman. My favorite modern poet.

    Yes, the phrase "And malt does more than Milton can
    To justify God’s ways to man" is to be found in the poem "Terence, this is stupid stuff", from "A Shropshire Lad".

    I know I shouldn't put the title of the collection in quotation marks but that's all I know how to do.

    Housman has good rhyme and meter. I find him addictive in the same way as Lewis Carroll–fun to memorize just so he’s always available on demand. “To an athlete dying young” is anthologized many places–it made no impresssion on me, so I dodged it in school or just never noticed it.

    The couplet sounds like it is pro-drinking but the longer passage is a caution against over-indulgence. It takes a while to get to that punchline. and meanwhile it’s fun!

    “Say for what were hopyards meant
    or why was Burton built on Trent
    Ale man, ale’s the stuff to drink
    For fellows who it hurts to think”

    For that reason, “Terrence this is stupid stuff” is anthologized in Bill Bennet’s _Book of Virtues_.

    Somebody called Housman “The English Nietzsche”–Joseph O’Donnell, apparently, in _Avatars of the Word_. It’s kind of funny, but maybe overdone…

  220. @Craig Nelsen
    A couple of weeks ago, I pulled CDC stats for mortality rates by manner of death, race, gender, year, and age from 1999 - 2015, then assigned the manners of death to broad categories. (It's pretty amazing how many ways there are to die, and even more amazing we keep track of them. Did you know that people can--and do--die by pretending to die?)

    One of my categories I called "self-destructive". The category included suicides, and all drug and alcohol related deaths. Stick it in a chart and it's clear: we've got a problem, white man.

    Until recently, Native American males between 15-54 years old generally ran at twice the rate or more of everyone else in self-inflicted deaths. High rates of self-inflicted death among Native Americans isn't surprising. Natives are, in fact, a defeated people, and reservations are especially bleak places. Some cursory research reinforces the idea that a defeat in war leads to high rates of suicide among the defeated people. Both Germany and Japan experienced high civilian suicide rates after WWII, for example (at least, anecdotally), and nothing says defeated like suicide.

    Well below Natives, whites and blacks had comparable rates and Asians somewhat lower. Then in about 2008 (insert portentous music) whites and blacks began diverging. Today, black rates have approached Asian rates in the US, while whites are neck and neck with Natives--and in 2009, 2010, 2011, and 2014 actually exceeded the Native rate!

    Here's a link to my chart:

    http://robinsonjeffersboxingclub.com/img/grfx/self-death.jpg

    Thank you for the post. Probably some people think of the election when they see “2008,” but that year also coincided with the financial crisis, which probably had a disproportionately adverse effect on White men versus Blacks.

    High rates of self-inflicted death among Native Americans isn’t surprising. Natives are, in fact, a defeated people, and reservations are especially bleak places. Some cursory research reinforces the idea that a defeat in war leads to high rates of suicide among the defeated people. Both Germany and Japan experienced high civilian suicide rates after WWII, for example (at least, anecdotally), and nothing says defeated like suicide.

    Contemporary Whites in the United States might also quakify as a defeated people. Very sad what has happened.

    (That comment does not refer only to White Southerners. However, do you have any awareness of what happened with suicide rates among White Southerners immediately after the Civil War?)

  221. Steve,

    My image of iSteve-y drinking is just opening a can of Bud during a football game. However, if we kick it up a notch, the closest thing in the cocktail-interest community to iSteve seems currently to be the following YouTube series. It seems clear from watching all these that they the creators are knowledgeable about history, they understand science/gastronomy, and they don’t suffer fools gladly.

    • Replies: @Chrisnonymous
    Jut noticed, the series host Robert Hess is a Microsoft employee listed in Wikipedia. Makes sense.
  222. @Chrisnonymous
    Steve,

    My image of iSteve-y drinking is just opening a can of Bud during a football game. However, if we kick it up a notch, the closest thing in the cocktail-interest community to iSteve seems currently to be the following YouTube series. It seems clear from watching all these that they the creators are knowledgeable about history, they understand science/gastronomy, and they don't suffer fools gladly.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJejI7KBjr4&list=PLswHKVkZEQq11iP2a2OgsObgNBF84wbU9&index=18

    Jut noticed, the series host Robert Hess is a Microsoft employee listed in Wikipedia. Makes sense.

    • Replies: @Chrisnonymous
    The quintessential YouTUbe for this post...


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-uDuu-0T-s
  223. @Chrisnonymous
    Jut noticed, the series host Robert Hess is a Microsoft employee listed in Wikipedia. Makes sense.

    The quintessential YouTUbe for this post…

  224. @Daniel Chieh
    Curious - what are the exact properties that cause the pretty well-known physical damages of hard drug use? I would think that they primarily affect the brain, as opposed to direct physiological insult to say, connective tissue in the skin.

    Smoking has some effect on your skin. But smoking is kind of an outlier–really bad for you in a bunch of long-term ways, but not in many short-term ways.

    I think meth is supposed to rot out your teeth partly by causing you to grind your teeth, partly by drying up your saliva.

    IV heroin requires injecting into veins, and often ends up with infected sores and collapsed veins as a result. Cocaine sometimes causes heart attacks or arrrythmias.

    But I think the big impact is that people who are really screwed up by drugs don’t take care of themselves–they don’t eat right, don’t brush their teeth, live in nasty and dangerous environments, etc. Old drunks are supposed to often be suffering from malnutrition thanks to getting most of their calories from a bottle, for example.

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