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A couple of years ago, a reader called BLS wrote me a study of why obscure Dubois County in southern Indiana stands out above most of its seemingly similar neighbors. Now, Raj Chetty’s study confirms BLS’s observations: Dubois ranks 50th in the country out of 2,478 counties (and second in Indiana to Lagrange) for upward mobility among lower income kids, and 36th in the country (and third in Indiana, narrowly behind Pike and Spencer) for higher income kids, giving Dubois the Indiana all-around title.

Chetty isn’t very interested in these kind of apples to apples comparisons of neighbors. In his latest study, which includes useful data on families that moved counties, he imposes a limit of only looking at moves of over 100 miles. But long moves across the country are likely to be more idiosyncratic, for job and family reasons and the long run impact is likely to be hard to predict. In contrast, short moves are more likely to be the result of careful study of local options and much discussion with your friends.

Unlike many rural counties that did well in Chetty’s rankings by, apparently, shedding population as farm productivity increases, allowing the surviving winners to make more money, Dubois has been growing steadily if unspectacularly in population in each Census for a century. It’s currently 92% white, with Hispanics making up the most of the rest.

Importantly, in the 2000 Census, “64.7% were of German and 15.8% American [i.e., Scots-Irish] ancestry.”

Reader BLS has written a thick description of the roots of why Dubois county stands out above other counties in Indiana.

I am writing you from the Hoosier state about something that you may find interesting. I have followed you on Takimag, and from there have found hbdchick, and others in the hbd blogosphere. For years I had proclivities to believe that genetics played a greater role in our lives than modern science wanted to admit. My basis for my original thinking was observing the people in the region of my upbringing in southern Indiana.

Southern Indiana has an interesting cultural history best described in Richard F. Nation’s book At Home in the Hoosier Hills: Politics, Religion, and Economics 1810-1870. While this book covers 60 years of time which ended 143 years ago, I found that it’s thesis matched essentially the same cultural observations that I was noticing from my teens as a keen observer of cultural idiosyncrasies.

Southern Indiana was populated in a period beginning in the 1790s and first decade of the 1800′s leading to statehood in 1816. The earliest settlers were Scotch-Irish coming in from Appalachia, Virginians, Pennsylvanians of British extraction, followed by large German Catholic and German Lutheran populations in the 1830s through 1860s. As southern Indiana settled, the larger swath was made up of largely Protestant groups, Methodists, Baptists, Presbyterians, and Restorationist Christians of the Cane Ridge revival of 1801. Not many Episcopalians.

In my estimate the denominations show that the settlers were clannish types willing to buck the established colonial hierarchy, just the types that would head west.

The Germans that came became very insular, finding small communities and making them theirs and being their own people. German was spoken in conversation and church into the early 1900s and in some places even into the 1950s, even though they spoke English and schooled in the language.

So, here are the observations I noticed over the years. The earliest Scotch-Irish and British (Anglo) settlers had a run of finding land and starting farms in the hill country. Of course that land to this day isn’t much for farming but better for livestock and remains relatively economically challenged. When the Germans came they found some of the best land, even though they were beaten to it by two decades. In those areas the farming is best, the communities successful, the people well off. Now this is observed in the fact that these areas of great degrees of economic and cultural differences are merely few miles apart. Essentially what I noticed and what is a long murmured joke is that Germans were successful wherever they went and made the area more successful based on the percentage of German majority. Anglo areas struggled and continue to, and both groups are just miles apart.



The mecca of this observation is Dubois County, Indiana. Dubois County was never French despite the name but was settled by Anglo cultures from the early 1800s. In the 1830s German Catholics came in force to farm and get into the abundant woods for wood working. They settled in the area that looks much like the Bavarian countryside they came from. By the 1850s Germans had populated the County in almost all parts while still living in places named by the predecessor Anglos. Jasper, Ireland, Haysville, Huntingburg, are predominantly German towns in this county.

So what is special about the place? The County is one of the richest in Indiana with more millionaires per capita than anywhere else in Indiana. The public high school sends nearly 95 percent of its students to some secondary education, and the other 5 percent are working in successful family businesses out of high school or leave for good.

Jasper the County seat has had two murders tried, one in the 1850s and one in the 1990s with it being family strife not robbery etc. Its local bank, the German American Bank, has one of the best ratings with the state bond bank.

Outsiders comment that the streets are cleaner than anywhere. The kids are well behaved, no rap music, baggy trousers etc. Community institutions are vibrant and flush with cash for various improvements. It has an arts center privately funded in a town of 10,000.

It however has no colleges (besides a satellite of Vincennes University) nor is it near any major interstates, airports, or rail ( the usual suspects in economic development studies for why places fail) It has the lowest teen pregnancy rate in the state and lowest welfare numbers. It’s only two drawbacks are that it has a higher than average suicide rate and some alcoholism issues (Germans like beer).

So what? Well, its neighboring Anglo counties are some of the poorest outside of our black inner cities. In almost all categories that Dubois County exceeds state averages in, their neighbors merely miles away exceed the state averages but in the opposite direction.

My hypothesis has been that Germanness matters. Is this cultural standards long developed that accept certain people and turn out others? Is it genetic, truly they have better genes, does Germanmess matter? Is it because they are homogenous in religion, ethnicity, and values? My guess is a delightful combination. I have always thought it was worth a deep study but I wouldn’t know who might want to even try it, or where to start. A relative recently became mayor of Jasper. He is only the second protestant mayor since 1835 and he is very German but Lutheran. I shared with him my thoughts and some of the work of you and your colleagues.

The interesting thing is that this is a difference of cultures within a small area and all white with very, very few minorities of any type in the area. This study would not involve race but ethnic background, homogeneity, and success vs. failure in people living in similar geographic and meteorological conditions.

Ultimately, I suggest that rural development and economic development dollars spent are many times wasted simply because of the ethnic background of the people. All over Indiana places where German ancestry is a higher percentage of the population the better the money is spent. Dubois County happens to be an oasis in a large desert, which would enhance the study’s efficacy, yes? The other key is that other rich predominantly white and European ethnically mixed areas of Indiana attract talent who search out the particular places, but Dubois continues success with very few move ins but with people cultivated from long family ties. Kids go to college but many come back unlike other dying rural areas where the smart kids move to Indianapolis or out of state.

What are your thoughts? Is there a study here? Would this be worth a look. I am certain of controversy but could the numbers speak for themselves?

 
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  1. The German influence is likely to have echoes in numerous small towns elsewhere in the Midwest such as in Nebraska and Kansas, and down into south Texas. Anecdotally, the civic-mindedness and respect was more apparent.

    • Replies: @Former Darfur
    The situation in Indiana is sort of similar to the one in Missouri where another far Northwest border county, Nodaway, is much different than its neighbors, but in a reverse way. "Nodaway County has a significant history of violence", as the Wiki says, because while the rural parts of North (of I-70) Missouri are full of Scandinavian and German farmers and other good burghers, Nodaway is a northern outpost of the Old South. And damn proud of it to this day. I have met descendants of the Youngers (as in Cole Younger) and several other names of Old West rambunctiousness from there.
  2. I recall various westerns where continental euro farmers encroached on and I assume eventually swamped earlier anglo ranchers – is this one of those places?

  3. Yeah, there’s a lot of intra-European diversity that gets ignored in our enthusiasm for non-European immigration.Here’s an excellent book to read:

    Ethnic America: A History Paperback – February 1, 1981
    by Thomas Sowell

    http://www.amazon.com/Ethnic-America-History-Thomas-Sowell/dp/0465020755

    It’s got a lot of fascinating information on the Germans, Irish, Italians, etc.One takeaway from the book: in 19th century America, you really didn’t want to have Irish Catholic neighbors.

    Here’s another highly recommended book:

    Albion’s Seed: Four British Folkways in America (America: a cultural history) Paperback – March 14, 1989
    by David Hackett Fischer

    http://www.amazon.com/Albions-Seed-British-Folkways-cultural/dp/0195069056

    This one deals with intra-Anglo differences.It closely analyzes and lists the ways in which the Puritans, Quakers, Virginia Tidewater, and Border Folk (AKA, the Scots-Irish) differ from one another.

    • Replies: @Hibernian
    "... in 19th century America, you really didn’t want to have Irish Catholic neighbors." No, it would be better to have neighbors like John Brown, Jesse James, or Billy the Kid. Or maybe Nathan Bedford Forrest.
  4. I think this is more of a case of Germans beating the Scotch-Irish, who traditionally haven’t been known for bourgeois values and being prosperous. Indiana borders Kentucky and had a lot of migrants from Kentucky and Tennessee. It’s always been known for having a strong Southern Scotch-Irish influence.

    • Replies: @FWIW
    "I think this is more of a case of Germans beating the Scotch-Irish, who traditionally haven’t been known for bourgeois values and being prosperous. "

    A lot of the Scots-Irish pass themselves off as WASPS. They are WASPS in a technical sense. Anyway ... they definitely wanted to distinguish themselves from hillbillies.

    I had a great grandmother that went to a huge amount of trouble to find a vague link to someone that died in the American Revolution.

    As odd as it sounds today, people used to care about this stuff.

    , @syonredux

    I think this is more of a case of Germans beating the Scotch-Irish, who traditionally haven’t been known for bourgeois values and being prosperous. Indiana borders Kentucky and had a lot of migrants from Kentucky and Tennessee. It’s always been known for having a strong Southern Scotch-Irish influence.
     
    Yeah, as I noted in an earlier post, the Scots-Irish Greater South has long been an underperformer.Here's a classic observation from Mark Twain:

    When I was a boy, in the back settlements of the Mississippi Valley, where a gracious and beautiful Sunday-school simplicity and unpracticality prevailed, the "Yankee" (citizen of the New England States) was hated with a splendid energy. But religion had nothing to do with it. In a trade, the Yankee was held to be about five times the match of the Westerner. His shrewdness, his insight, his judgment, his knowledge, his enterprise, and his formidable cleverness in applying these forces were frankly confessed, and most competently cursed.
     
    http://classiclit.about.com/library/bl-etexts/mtwain/bl-mtwain-concerningjews.htm


    Back in the early 18th century, William Byrd of Westover commented on the shiftlessness of the backcountry Scots-Irish in North Carolina.He characterized the whole region as "Lubberland," a realm of indolent sloth.
    , @Devil's Advocate
    It's easy to beat the Scots-Irish when you're the dominant ethnic group and your doors are closed to outsiders. Don't the Amish have a name for outsiders? Wait ... it's coming to me. That's right. They call them The English. This is straight up Group Mindedness 101.
  5. FWIW says:

    “Ultimately, I suggest that rural development and economic development dollars spent are many times wasted simply because of the ethnic background of the people.”

    Sounds like Dubois county doesn’t need economic development dollars.

    They generate their own capital. I suppose it is possible to look around and see if there is a shortage of capital anywhere. And in the aggregate, there is an excess of capital that is invested outside the county. That is, all the high return investments have been made, and additional incremental capital would produce low returns.

    Plus there are businesses like Walmart that have cost advantages that simply can’t be duplicated by small, local businesses.

    “EVANSVILLE — Old National Bancorp plans to sell off 17 of its banking centers and close or consolidate another 19 locations, the Evansville-based bank announced Monday, affecting two Jasper locations.

    This March, Jasper customers will soon lose one branch as it is consolidated into another.

    “We will be closing the Jasper Manor location and it will be consolidated into the Jasper Crossing location,” said Kathy Schoettlin, executive vice president of communications.

    Schoettlin said following a thorough examination of Old National’s banking network, it was determined the location at 681 Third Ave. — the intersection of Third Avenue and Rumbach Avenue — should be closed and consolidation into the 771 Second Street location — bracketed by Second Street, Indiana Street and U.S. 231.”

    Big news … one branch bank will be consolidated with another.

    They still have a county newspaper with reporters.

    I don’t really know …. but there are a hell of a lot of statistics by county just floating around. Bank Call Reports?

  6. Why is St. Patrick’s Day more widely celebrated in the U.S than Oktoberfest? When German Americans outnumber Irish Americans.

    In the 21st Century does German culture and traditions still get a bad rep in the U.S because of World War 2? Just because you celebrate Oktoberfest, it does not automatically mean you worship Adolf Hitler.

    • Replies: @BurplesonAFB
    On a man to man basis, the Germans and the Anglos (genetically distant by 1500 years only) are the most significant human beings of the last 200 years of Modernity. And we demonize success.
    , @syonredux

    Why is St. Patrick’s Day more widely celebrated in the U.S than Oktoberfest? When German Americans outnumber Irish Americans.

    In the 21st Century does German culture and traditions still get a bad rep in the U.S because of World War 2? Just because you celebrate Oktoberfest, it does not automatically mean you worship Adolf Hitler.
     
    WWI was more decisive in that regard.During the Great War, the WASP elite waged a veritable Kulturkampf against German culture in America.Of course, they had good reasons for doing so.Some of the German-American intelligentsia were frankly anti-Anglo and pro-German. H.L. Mencken and Theodore Dreiser, for example, exchanged letters where they talked about their desire to see Germany smash England and dominate Europe.Indeed, Mencken was an arch-Anglophobe.He frequently wrote about how the Anglo-Saxons (both in America and in Britain) were racially inferior, and that it was a good thing that the Anglos were being racially swamped in the New World.
    , @Chris Anderson
    Not WWII, it was WWI. Cincinnati where I live was about as German as you can get around the turn of the 20th century, but the cultural influence was killed off by WWI and Prohibition. It took about 50 years before there was a German cultural revival with, for example, the largest Oktoberest in the U.S.
    , @OhComeOn
    The Irish have been promoted by the Jews.

    The Irish are so low that even Asian women avoid white men in Ireland...whereas the black women are welcomed with open arms by Irish men.

    In America you'll often see Irish men with Asian women who aren't smart enough to know they are dating Irish men....the Asians just go 'Oooh white...yippeee!' and I laugh and laugh and laugh...
    , @ben tillman

    Why is St. Patrick’s Day more widely celebrated in the U.S than Oktoberfest? When German Americans outnumber Irish Americans.
     
    1. Are you sure that's true?
    2. Oktoberfest is a Bavarian thing, not a German thing.
    , @Anonymous
    The reason Oktoberfest isn't more broadly celebrated is that it is specific to Bavaria and it wasn't started until the early 18oo's (so wasn't widely spread, even among Bavarians, until later)
    , @Anonymous
    Aren't the Irish more popular than the Germans? The general stereotype is that the Irish are very friendly, warm, and fun, whereas the Germans are more cold and less likable. Not saying that this is true, just that it seems to be the popular perception, and may be why St. Patrick's Day is more popular and why it's adopted by so many people.
    , @ChaseBizzy
    The Athenaeum building here in Indianapolis was known as Das Deutsche Haus until the outbreak of WWI for example. Anti-German sentiment was incredibly strong and many German Americans made a conscious effort to essentially become generic Americans if they hadn't already. It was one of those remarkably significant sociological occurrences in U.S. history that have essentially been forgotten.
    , @Anonymous
    In the 21st Century does German culture and traditions still get a bad rep in the U.S because of World War 2?

    Actually, the destruction of Germanic culture in America began in the build-up to WWI, and was largely completed before the great depression. Cincinnati, Columbus, Milwaukee and others had large German-language communities that were mostly driven underground. Cincinnati had 3 German language newspapers fail during that period. Prohibition also played a role. Cincy had several thousand neighborhood bars (averaging one per block, if I recall correctly), and in a third or more German was the primary language.

    , @FatDrunkAndStupid
    St. Patrick's Day had been celebrated as a serious, nationwide, religious day in Ireland for centuries prior to the mass waves of immigration. Oktoberfest is a Festival specific to Bavaria that first occurred in 1810. So just on that point alone I don't think it is a very fair comparison. Add to that the fact Ireland was a united (other than the North) country with a uniform religion whose immigrants came her en mass during a relatively narrow window of time. German immigration to America peaked in the mid to late 1800's but had been steady since even before the foundation of the United States and there were millions of Germans already here when those huge waves were arriving.

    Germans are the reason we have Christmas trees. Germans are the reason Halloween is celebrated the way it is in America (despite it actually being an Irish Holiday). There is no shortage of German impact on the cultural landscape of America. Unlike the Irish, Germans have been here in large numbers since the beginning and by the 20th Century were the largest genetic subgroup in America. That is probably why the Germans never felt the need for any overt "Old World" nationalistic displays.
    , @Anonymous
    The Irish are fun loving, easygoing people. The Germans are uptight and fanatical cf. the Nazis.
  7. In rural Ohio, when you see a mailbox with the name Fisher on it, look at the property. If it’s spic-and-span, with shiny doorknobs, fresh paint, meticulously groomed shrubs and lawnmower lines in a careful pattern, you can bet the name was originally spelled Fischer.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    Heh. My family named was Anglicized during WWI.
  8. RE: Germans outperforming Anglos in Dubois County,

    Southern Indiana is, well, kind of Southern.The phrase that comes up in lots of histories when it comes time to describe Southern Indiana and Illinois is “quasi-Southern.”And the South has not done well in terms of human accomplishment.Murray provides some interesting figures:

    An even more striking aspect of the map is the white space covering the American South. Although more lightly populated than the North, the American South had a substantial population throughout American history.In 1850, for example, the White population of the South was 5.6 million, compared to 8.5 million in the Northeast. In 1900 the comparison was 12.1 million to 20.6 million. By 1950, the gap had almost closed-36.9 million compared to 37.4 million.While it is understandable that the South did not have as many significant figures as the North, the magnitude of the difference goes far beyond population.The Northeastern states of New England plus New York, Pennsylvania, and New Jersey had produced 184 significant figures by 1950, while the states that made up the Confederacy during the Civil War had produced 24, a ratio of more than 7:1. (HUMAN ACCOMPLISHMENT, 304-5).

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    And the irony of course, that before the Civil War, it could well be said that the South had produced more significant citizens of note; after all, the South was the wealthiest region in the US prior to the Civil War and for obvious reasons.

    Seems as though the legacy of the War has meant that Dixie just hasn't been able to catch up to the North. Wonder if it ever shall?
    , @Enrique Cardova
    This is the same argument Sowell makes in his Black rednecks, White liberals and in earlier books. The white south is more backward than the white north. Indeed some IQ tests show white Southerners almost one standard deviation below the northerners, with some blacks from various northern states, outperforming southern whites from certain states. (Sowell 1981, 1978 1983, Montagu 1972)

    As Sowell notes re white Southern culture:

    " What the [white] rednecks or crackers brought with them across the ocean was a whole constellation of attitudes, values, and behavior patterns that might have made sense in the world in which they had lived for centuries, but which would prove to be counterproductive in the world to which they were going — and counterproductive to the blacks who would live in their midst for centuries before emerging into freedom and migrating to the great urban centers of the United States, taking with them similar values.

    The cultural values and social patterns prevalent among Southern whites included an aversion to work, proneness to violence, neglect of education, sexual promiscuity, improvidence, drunkenness, lack of entrepreneurship, reckless searches for excitement, a lively music and dance, and a style of religious oratory marked by strident rhetoric, unbridled emotions, and flamboyant imagery... Touchy pride, vanity, and boastful self-dramatization were also part of this redneck culture among people from regions of Britain where the civilization was the least developed."
     
  9. FWIW says:
    @Anonymous
    I think this is more of a case of Germans beating the Scotch-Irish, who traditionally haven't been known for bourgeois values and being prosperous. Indiana borders Kentucky and had a lot of migrants from Kentucky and Tennessee. It's always been known for having a strong Southern Scotch-Irish influence.

    “I think this is more of a case of Germans beating the Scotch-Irish, who traditionally haven’t been known for bourgeois values and being prosperous. ”

    A lot of the Scots-Irish pass themselves off as WASPS. They are WASPS in a technical sense. Anyway … they definitely wanted to distinguish themselves from hillbillies.

    I had a great grandmother that went to a huge amount of trouble to find a vague link to someone that died in the American Revolution.

    As odd as it sounds today, people used to care about this stuff.

    • Replies: @pinto


    A lot of the Scots-Irish pass themselves off as WASPS. They are WASPS in a technical sense. Anyway … they definitely wanted to distinguish themselves from hillbillies.
     
    Are they technically WASPS?

    I mean Anglo or Saxon. I bet neither.

    They are celts.
  10. Thoughts meandering:Maybe Germans just have a knack for the farming life?Remember Eddie Albert in Green Acres?? Note:Re Sowell,he’s a brave guy,I am a fan,but he,like Lynn,for his own reasons,will be hard on the Irish.Just sayin.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    Sowell,he’s a brave guy,I am a fan,but he,like Lynn,for his own reasons,will be hard on the Irish.Just sayin.
     
    While at Harvard, he had to walk through Southie every day. That alone would account for it.

    He chose to dress like a prole, presumably changing on arrival at campus. The Micks didn't care that he was black, but if they ever learned he was a Harvard man…
    , @Reg Cæsar

    Thoughts meandering:Maybe Germans just have a knack for the farming life?
     
    There was a term I forget for a stereotypical German immigrant farmer who was very well read and even knew Latin, but was less impressive at agriculture.

    But a century before that, the view seems to be the opposite.
    , @Marissa
    :Re Sowell,he’s a brave guy,I am a fan,but he,like Lynn,for his own reasons,will be hard on the Irish

    Why? I wouldn't know.
  11. The most famous German American of all time runs a meth empire in Albuquerque, New Mexico. He goes by the name of Heisenberg.

    • Replies: @el topo
    I assume that Walter Hartwell White, a.k.a. Heisenberg, was supposed to be a WASP. But the actor who played him is indeed more than half German (from Bryan Cranston's wikipedia entry: " He is of Austrian, German, and Irish ancestry on his father's side, while his maternal grandparents were immigrants from Germany.")

    Other notably German names from the cast of Breaking Bad: Betsy Brandt and RJ Mitte.

    And, as someone noted on another thread, it was nice to see modern Germans portrayed briefly in the show in a non-stereotypical manner.
  12. @Anonymous
    I think this is more of a case of Germans beating the Scotch-Irish, who traditionally haven't been known for bourgeois values and being prosperous. Indiana borders Kentucky and had a lot of migrants from Kentucky and Tennessee. It's always been known for having a strong Southern Scotch-Irish influence.

    I think this is more of a case of Germans beating the Scotch-Irish, who traditionally haven’t been known for bourgeois values and being prosperous. Indiana borders Kentucky and had a lot of migrants from Kentucky and Tennessee. It’s always been known for having a strong Southern Scotch-Irish influence.

    Yeah, as I noted in an earlier post, the Scots-Irish Greater South has long been an underperformer.Here’s a classic observation from Mark Twain:

    When I was a boy, in the back settlements of the Mississippi Valley, where a gracious and beautiful Sunday-school simplicity and unpracticality prevailed, the “Yankee” (citizen of the New England States) was hated with a splendid energy. But religion had nothing to do with it. In a trade, the Yankee was held to be about five times the match of the Westerner. His shrewdness, his insight, his judgment, his knowledge, his enterprise, and his formidable cleverness in applying these forces were frankly confessed, and most competently cursed.

    http://classiclit.about.com/library/bl-etexts/mtwain/bl-mtwain-concerningjews.htm

    Back in the early 18th century, William Byrd of Westover commented on the shiftlessness of the backcountry Scots-Irish in North Carolina.He characterized the whole region as “Lubberland,” a realm of indolent sloth.

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    The Scots-Irish were the 18/19th century version of White Trash, or "wiggers". From an historical standpoint, Bill Clinton would fall into this category. The thing is, a lot of the Tidewater Aristocracy that controlled the Antebellum South was virtually wiped out by the War, thus leaving the Scots-Irish virtually in charge or close to the top than before. Guess it really is true: When looking for a leader with character, bet on the Tidewater and not on the trash.
  13. “A lot of the Scots-Irish pass themselves off as WASPS. They are WASPS in a technical sense. Anyway … they definitely wanted to distinguish themselves from hillbillies.”

    After “Deliverance” came out, a lot of White Southerners wanted to distinguish themselves from hillbillies. “We are country living rural Southerners, but we are nothing like those murderous rapist psychopath hillbillies in Deliverance”.

    A lot of White Southerners are ashamed of “Deliverance”, just like a lot of Italian Americans are ashamed of mafia films.

  14. @Jefferson
    Why is St. Patrick's Day more widely celebrated in the U.S than Oktoberfest? When German Americans outnumber Irish Americans.

    In the 21st Century does German culture and traditions still get a bad rep in the U.S because of World War 2? Just because you celebrate Oktoberfest, it does not automatically mean you worship Adolf Hitler.

    On a man to man basis, the Germans and the Anglos (genetically distant by 1500 years only) are the most significant human beings of the last 200 years of Modernity. And we demonize success.

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Careful though, there is another tribe that might want to join in that conversation. Where would you rate them on the scale of producing the "most significant human beings"?
    , @syonredux

    On a man to man basis, the Germans and the Anglos (genetically distant by 1500 years only) are the most significant human beings of the last 200 years of Modernity. And we demonize success.

     

    Actually, recent studies show that the Germanic invasion of Britain was not quite as demographically overwhelming as some have thought:

    One thousand and five hundred years ago innumerable Germans, Saxons, Angles and Jutes, came to the shores of Britain, and transformed it into England. One thousand and five hundred years ago the trunk of the English language was grafted upon a fundamentally British ethnic root. Post-Roman Britain was subject to a massive migration of Germans in the 6th century, and, the majority of the ancestry of the people of the British Isles derives from the period before the Anglo-Saxon migrations.
     
    Leaving that to one side, here are some interesting figures regarding the inter-relationship between demography and accomplishment:



    Nobel Prize WINNERS:

    Latin America: 15

    Anglo-America (USA plus Canada): 376

    So, Latin America is flatland.And Anglo-America is the Alps.

    Now, let’s look at the sources of American accomplishment:

    As reported in the 2010 census, the major Euro ethnic groups in the USA are:Germans, Irish, English, and Italians.How many Nobel Prize winners have these ethnic groups produced in their places of origin?

    Germany: 102

    Ireland: 10

    England/UK: 115

    Italy:20

    Clearly, the Anglos and the Germans having been doing a lot of heavy lifting.Also, it's pretty clear that having 100 million Hispanic Mestizos and Amerinds in the USA by 2060 is bad news for America.
    , @syonredux
    Left out the link on the British data:

    One thousand and five hundred years ago innumerable Germans, Saxons, Angles and Jutes, came to the shores of Britain, and transformed it into England. One thousand and five hundred years ago the trunk of the English language was grafted upon a fundamentally British ethnic root. Post-Roman Britain was subject to a massive migration of Germans in the 6th century, and, the majority of the ancestry of the people of the British Isles derives from the period before the Anglo-Saxon migrations.
     
    http://www.unz.com/gnxp/cuius-regio-eius-religio-in-anglo-saxon-england/?highlight=england
  15. “Yeah, as I noted in an earlier post, the Scots-Irish Greater South has long been an underperformer.”

    What is your opinion of Louisiana Cajuns?

  16. “When the Germans came they found some of the best land, even though they were beaten to it by two decades.”

    I think what is more likely is that rather than breaking virgin soil that had been overlooked by the Scots-Irish, the Germans purchased the land at an attractive price from tenants who had been practicing extensive farming and herding, and made it produce more than previous. The Scots-Irish were very effective pioneers, but never known for efficient, intensive, agriculture. And where in America were the Germans the first to settle the land and hold the natives at bay?

    Maybe a natural progression is at work: Native peoples – primarily hunter gatherers / Scots-Irish – primitive farmers and herders / Germans – efficient agronomists / Higher order Scots, Anglos, and Germans – commerce, industry, and finance / Mediterranean Commercial Peoples – more efficient commerce and finance.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    The pacifist Quakers of Pennsylvania recruited Scots-Irish to settle the frontier and do what needed to be done.
    , @Hans Olo
    "And where in America were the Germans the first to settle the land and hold the natives at bay?"

    Well, they kind of tried that in southwestern Minnesota. It didn't end very well. See:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dakota_War_of_1862
  17. The Germans came from a densely populated region of Europe where life was competitive. They often lived on the Malthusian edge. Farmers had to work hard to maximize production. Villagers had to work hard to hang on to their jobs. Slackers became unemployed, then starved.

    The Scots-Irish were cattle herders who lived in a sparsely populated region. They often had to protect their cattle using violence, but they never had to develop the same work habits as the Germans. The east English ancestors of the New Englanders lived in an environment very similar to the Germans.

    My Scots-Irish ancestors, in the 1700′s and 1800′s mainly earned their living through land speculation. They would homestead a farm, build it up to some extent, and then sell it to some farmer (often a German). Wherever game was available, the men preferred hunting to farm work.

    I do not accept that the Germans are any smarter than we are. They are more disciplined. We are more warlike. Many of my relatives have been Marines. Germans are good fighters once they get going, but they don’t love it as much as we do. Our group produces some outstanding people from time to time.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Scotch-Irish_Americans

  18. @Jefferson
    Why is St. Patrick's Day more widely celebrated in the U.S than Oktoberfest? When German Americans outnumber Irish Americans.

    In the 21st Century does German culture and traditions still get a bad rep in the U.S because of World War 2? Just because you celebrate Oktoberfest, it does not automatically mean you worship Adolf Hitler.

    Why is St. Patrick’s Day more widely celebrated in the U.S than Oktoberfest? When German Americans outnumber Irish Americans.

    In the 21st Century does German culture and traditions still get a bad rep in the U.S because of World War 2? Just because you celebrate Oktoberfest, it does not automatically mean you worship Adolf Hitler.

    WWI was more decisive in that regard.During the Great War, the WASP elite waged a veritable Kulturkampf against German culture in America.Of course, they had good reasons for doing so.Some of the German-American intelligentsia were frankly anti-Anglo and pro-German. H.L. Mencken and Theodore Dreiser, for example, exchanged letters where they talked about their desire to see Germany smash England and dominate Europe.Indeed, Mencken was an arch-Anglophobe.He frequently wrote about how the Anglo-Saxons (both in America and in Britain) were racially inferior, and that it was a good thing that the Anglos were being racially swamped in the New World.

    • Replies: @marina
    WWI is when my maternal relatives basically dropped the German language, having retained it in Pennsylvania for a long time after immigrating. My grandmother, who was a child during WWII can understand German but not speak it, and my mother knows one German phrase: "Es, kinder, es."
    , @athEIst
    Kulturkampf against German culture in America
    You are absolutely correct. When in High School I wanted to take German, but it was not offered. Spanish, French and Latin were. Investigating I discovered German had been offered until 1917! It was offered again 1n 1965 and I graduated in 1964.
  19. @syonredux
    RE: Germans outperforming Anglos in Dubois County,

    Southern Indiana is, well, kind of Southern.The phrase that comes up in lots of histories when it comes time to describe Southern Indiana and Illinois is "quasi-Southern."And the South has not done well in terms of human accomplishment.Murray provides some interesting figures:

    An even more striking aspect of the map is the white space covering the American South. Although more lightly populated than the North, the American South had a substantial population throughout American history.In 1850, for example, the White population of the South was 5.6 million, compared to 8.5 million in the Northeast. In 1900 the comparison was 12.1 million to 20.6 million. By 1950, the gap had almost closed-36.9 million compared to 37.4 million.While it is understandable that the South did not have as many significant figures as the North, the magnitude of the difference goes far beyond population.The Northeastern states of New England plus New York, Pennsylvania, and New Jersey had produced 184 significant figures by 1950, while the states that made up the Confederacy during the Civil War had produced 24, a ratio of more than 7:1. (HUMAN ACCOMPLISHMENT, 304-5).

    And the irony of course, that before the Civil War, it could well be said that the South had produced more significant citizens of note; after all, the South was the wealthiest region in the US prior to the Civil War and for obvious reasons.

    Seems as though the legacy of the War has meant that Dixie just hasn’t been able to catch up to the North. Wonder if it ever shall?

    • Replies: @athEIst
    legacy of the War

    Do you mean the punishingly high tariffs passed by Congress the minute the southerners left Washington in 1861 and maintained except 1913-1919 until the Smoot-Hawley tariff of 1930? These tariffs, often as high as 48%, bled money from the South to the North(or maybe the Northern Industrialists). For every 10,000 shacks in the South a new mansion in Newport .
    , @syonredux

    And the irony of course, that before the Civil War, it could well be said that the South had produced more significant citizens of note; after all, the South was the wealthiest region in the US prior to the Civil War and for obvious reasons.
     
    Again, no.In the arts and the sciences, the South was a massive underperformer in the antebellum period.The North produced a very large number of significant figures during the period 1607-1861: Jonathan Edwards, Benjamin Franklin, Eli Whitney, Joseph Henry, John Fulton, Hawthorne, Melville, Whitman, Emerson, Parkman, Prescott, Thoreau, Dickinson, Morse, Benjamin Thompson, etc.

    The South, in contrast, produced only a small handful of figures, men like Poe (who was born in Boston, received his early schooling in England, and spent a large portion of his career in Northern cities like New York and Philadelphia) and Matthew Fontaine Maury ( a pioneering oceanographer).


    As for the South being wealthier, that was not true on a per capita basis.The cotton boom produced a lot millionaires in the South, but the Native born Whites were more impoverished than their cousins in Northern states.
    , @syonredux
    Well, let's use Murray's observation from Human Accomplishment:

    In 1850, for example, the White population of the South was 5.6 million, compared to 8.5 million in the Northeast.
     
    And then take a look at American Literature, 1830-1860:

    Major figures from the North: Hawthorne, Melville, Emerson, Thoreau, Dickinson, Whitman. Those are the figures who would have to included in any kind of reasonable survey class.

    Minor Figures from the North: Holmes, Irving, Cooper, James Russell Lowell, Longfellow, Whittier, Bryant, Margaret Fuller,Stowe, etc

    These are the types who can be excluded from a survey class , but you will usually include a smattering of them.


    Major figures from the South: Poe.That's it.He's the only Southerner who has to be included in a standard survey of American Lit in the period 1830-1860.

    Minor Figures: William Gilmore Simms*, Augustus Baldwin Longstreet, George Washington Harris, perhaps a few others, if the judges are in a generous mood.

    All of these authors are even more second tier than their Northern counterparts.Frankly, I'm not sure if any of them would be included in a standard survey, even for flavor.

    As you can see, using population as a kind, the South should have produced more authors of note.The fact that it didn't indicates that something else is going on.....










    *Poor Simms.Cooper was known as the American Scott, but Simms had to suffer under the indignity of being the Southern Cooper, a moniker that made him doubly provincial.
  20. @BurplesonAFB
    On a man to man basis, the Germans and the Anglos (genetically distant by 1500 years only) are the most significant human beings of the last 200 years of Modernity. And we demonize success.

    Careful though, there is another tribe that might want to join in that conversation. Where would you rate them on the scale of producing the “most significant human beings”?

  21. jtgw says:

    BLS seems confused as to whether it’s cultural or genetic, but those are quite different, as well as both being based on the unquestioned premise that the special behavior of Dubois County cannot be explained by economic or sociological factors.

    Basically, amateur social science is fun speculation but scientifically worthless.

    • Replies: @Cagey Beast
    Basically, amateur social science is fun speculation but scientifically worthless.

    People here need to write this quote down on a Post-It note and stick it right in the middle of their computer's screen.
    , @ic1000
    Confused is not a synonym for agnostic, or even for curious.
    , @Steve Sailer
    As opposed to professional social science, such as Harvard Professor Chetty's bulletproof speculations.
  22. Another worthwhile investigation would be Mennonite communities. The Iowa Mennonite School (http://iowamennonite.org) is in the middle of a cornfield in rural Washington County:

    “How We Rank: You may also like to know that our class averages have ranked at the 98th percentile nationally on the Iowa Tests of Educational Development (ITED) with an ACT Composite score of 24.2 while the state average is 22.3. Approximately 90 percent of IMS graduates receive post-high school education or training.”

    Also investigate German (and Czech) settled towns in Texas, such as Fredericksburg and New Braunfels. I know a woman PK whose father was invited to a Texas hill country church in 1948 because they demanded a German-speaking pastor.

    There are rural areas of Wisconsin settled by colonies of Belgians, of Germans and of Swiss. I wonder what results Chetty would have gotten if he correlated his income data with European ethnicity. Doesn’t the Census Bureau provide the US ethnic composition on at least a per-county basis?

    • Replies: @ben tillman

    Also investigate German (and Czech) settled towns in Texas, such as Fredericksburg and New Braunfels. I know a woman PK whose father was invited to a Texas hill country church in 1948 because they demanded a German-speaking pastor.
     
    Would that be a female placekicker or a woman named P.K.? If the latter, would her third initial be a "T"?
  23. @syonredux

    I think this is more of a case of Germans beating the Scotch-Irish, who traditionally haven’t been known for bourgeois values and being prosperous. Indiana borders Kentucky and had a lot of migrants from Kentucky and Tennessee. It’s always been known for having a strong Southern Scotch-Irish influence.
     
    Yeah, as I noted in an earlier post, the Scots-Irish Greater South has long been an underperformer.Here's a classic observation from Mark Twain:

    When I was a boy, in the back settlements of the Mississippi Valley, where a gracious and beautiful Sunday-school simplicity and unpracticality prevailed, the "Yankee" (citizen of the New England States) was hated with a splendid energy. But religion had nothing to do with it. In a trade, the Yankee was held to be about five times the match of the Westerner. His shrewdness, his insight, his judgment, his knowledge, his enterprise, and his formidable cleverness in applying these forces were frankly confessed, and most competently cursed.
     
    http://classiclit.about.com/library/bl-etexts/mtwain/bl-mtwain-concerningjews.htm


    Back in the early 18th century, William Byrd of Westover commented on the shiftlessness of the backcountry Scots-Irish in North Carolina.He characterized the whole region as "Lubberland," a realm of indolent sloth.

    The Scots-Irish were the 18/19th century version of White Trash, or “wiggers”. From an historical standpoint, Bill Clinton would fall into this category. The thing is, a lot of the Tidewater Aristocracy that controlled the Antebellum South was virtually wiped out by the War, thus leaving the Scots-Irish virtually in charge or close to the top than before. Guess it really is true: When looking for a leader with character, bet on the Tidewater and not on the trash.

  24. Steve, heads up here- in western massachusetts there is a rural area called the “Hilltowns” which was settled by the Scotch-Irish about 200 years ago. The people living there are the leftovers from that time.

    Now there are mennonities and other german types in the hill towns, and there is a stark contrast between the scotch-irish natives, who tend to be dumb and drunk and lazy like their cousins in the south, and the german types who are clean cut and industrious. They are opening up furniture and baked goods and organic farm stores like they are on fire…the scotch-irish are being outcompeted like crazy.

    All of these mennonites seem intelligent when you talk to them (unlike the natives) and have like 10 kids.

    The Hilltowns is an interesting area that doesn’t receive much press…it’s almost a land out of time. The towns include Blandford, Chester, Huntington, Russell, Middlefield, Montgomery, Worthington, Otis, and a few others I can’t remember.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    The Mennonites are interesting. They're like the Amish, but they use modern technology and methods, and are very organized and do communal labor, rather than just family labor like the Amish. They also have an interesting policy where once a community becomes a certain size, they hold a lottery and people are selected to leave and set up a colony elsewhere.
  25. @BurplesonAFB
    On a man to man basis, the Germans and the Anglos (genetically distant by 1500 years only) are the most significant human beings of the last 200 years of Modernity. And we demonize success.

    On a man to man basis, the Germans and the Anglos (genetically distant by 1500 years only) are the most significant human beings of the last 200 years of Modernity. And we demonize success.

    Actually, recent studies show that the Germanic invasion of Britain was not quite as demographically overwhelming as some have thought:

    One thousand and five hundred years ago innumerable Germans, Saxons, Angles and Jutes, came to the shores of Britain, and transformed it into England. One thousand and five hundred years ago the trunk of the English language was grafted upon a fundamentally British ethnic root. Post-Roman Britain was subject to a massive migration of Germans in the 6th century, and, the majority of the ancestry of the people of the British Isles derives from the period before the Anglo-Saxon migrations.

    Leaving that to one side, here are some interesting figures regarding the inter-relationship between demography and accomplishment:

    Nobel Prize WINNERS:

    Latin America: 15

    Anglo-America (USA plus Canada): 376

    So, Latin America is flatland.And Anglo-America is the Alps.

    Now, let’s look at the sources of American accomplishment:

    As reported in the 2010 census, the major Euro ethnic groups in the USA are:Germans, Irish, English, and Italians.How many Nobel Prize winners have these ethnic groups produced in their places of origin?

    Germany: 102

    Ireland: 10

    England/UK: 115

    Italy:20

    Clearly, the Anglos and the Germans having been doing a lot of heavy lifting.Also, it’s pretty clear that having 100 million Hispanic Mestizos and Amerinds in the USA by 2060 is bad news for America.

    • Replies: @PV van der Byl
    No major disagreement but it should be mentioned that the Irish population has long been less than 1/10 of either Germany or the UK.

    Re the Italians: How many of the 20 prize winners came from south of Rome?
    , @Christian
    "Irish" Nobels: 5 for "peace", 4 Anglos plus Seamus Heaney.

    Not really any heavy lifting from us Irish I'm afraid. But I think that supports the argument doesn't it?
    , @David
    Razib is such a horrible writer:

    One thousand and five hundred years ago innumerable Germans, Saxons, Angles and Jutes, came to the shores of Britain, and transformed it into England. One thousand and five hundred years ago the trunk of the English language was grafted upon a fundamentally British ethnic root. Post-Roman Britain was subject to a massive migration of Germans in the 6th century, and, the majority of the ancestry of the people of the British Isles derives from the period before the Anglo-Saxon migrations.
     
    He says "innumerable" and "massive" then says "and," not "but," "the majority... derives from before." He plants in our heads words that imply significant impact. We didn't bring "innumerable" to the table. He did. Than he introduces an opposite thought, that "innumerable" wasn't so great. Reversing his trend without warning makes it almost essential to reread the passage. But it must be worth it.

    I grew up here speaking English. I didn't have the advantage of learning it by reading Clan of the Cave Bear cover to cover at a sleepover when I was 5. Razib's more cosmopolitan perspective can see beyond the bourgeois distinctions among English conjunctions.

    , @Hapalong Cassidy
    It isn't just the Mestizo portion of Hispanic ethnicity that is the problem. Spain itself has always been a backwater when it comes to scientific and technical achievement. I'm pretty sure the list of Nobel Laureates in science, math, and economics of Spanish descent is pretty barren. And it's not just Anglos and Germans who outcompete them, but their fellow Latins the French and Italians as well.
    , @Jaakko Raipala
    Nobel prizes are guaranteed to have heavy bias towards Germany, England and Scandinavia since they're handed by Swedes. Some of the literature winners still haven't even been translated out of Swedish and of course literature prizes generally favored Germanic-as-first-language writers. Science Nobels would be a better guide but they too have a lot of Scandinavian and German winners who made minor contributions. The Jewish list of winners would be even more amazing if the prize was actually unbiased.

    Back in the day when Nobel prizes started the Germanic continental sphere was in the middle of several culture wars, one over the recently emancipated Jews who had flooded education, one over those old 19th century "hbd" theories vs the historical lack of development in the north compared to old Mediterranean civilizations and one over Eastern Europe with Russia which made all sorts of (often true) promises of releasing Eastern Europeans from the various regimes that made Germanic peoples privileged over the rest. The Nobels have not been above being used as promotional tools in these culture wars.

    Russia of course did things in reverse and promoted Slavic authors and achievements in the Soviet sphere but communism was a profoundly bad bet so their "prizes" aren't remembered. You can see the schadenfreude over this in the literature Nobels - Russian giants in the early days were ignored but then Russians started winning when dissidents started writing about what a failure Soviet Russia is...

    , @Kevin O'Keeffe
    "How many Nobel Prize winners have these ethnic groups produced in their places of origin?

    Germany: 102

    Ireland: 10"


    Population of Germany: 80.7 million

    Population of Ireland: 6.4 million


    I think a lot of people are unaware of the fact that the Federal Republic of Germany has 12.5 times as many people as the Republic of Ireland, but when you factor that into it, Ireland would appear to actually have more Nobel Prize winners per capita, than Germany.
  26. Interesting. My relatives were germans who settled in North Carolina in the 18th century, but one went north to Indiana and fought for the Union in the Civil War. Some of his brothers fought for the Confederacy but I don’t think they were slaveholders. The next generation, my great grandfather and his brothers, started a hosiery mill and were that rare breed for the time: southern Republicans.

  27. @jtgw
    BLS seems confused as to whether it's cultural or genetic, but those are quite different, as well as both being based on the unquestioned premise that the special behavior of Dubois County cannot be explained by economic or sociological factors.

    Basically, amateur social science is fun speculation but scientifically worthless.

    Basically, amateur social science is fun speculation but scientifically worthless.

    People here need to write this quote down on a Post-It note and stick it right in the middle of their computer’s screen.

  28. @syonredux

    Why is St. Patrick’s Day more widely celebrated in the U.S than Oktoberfest? When German Americans outnumber Irish Americans.

    In the 21st Century does German culture and traditions still get a bad rep in the U.S because of World War 2? Just because you celebrate Oktoberfest, it does not automatically mean you worship Adolf Hitler.
     
    WWI was more decisive in that regard.During the Great War, the WASP elite waged a veritable Kulturkampf against German culture in America.Of course, they had good reasons for doing so.Some of the German-American intelligentsia were frankly anti-Anglo and pro-German. H.L. Mencken and Theodore Dreiser, for example, exchanged letters where they talked about their desire to see Germany smash England and dominate Europe.Indeed, Mencken was an arch-Anglophobe.He frequently wrote about how the Anglo-Saxons (both in America and in Britain) were racially inferior, and that it was a good thing that the Anglos were being racially swamped in the New World.

    WWI is when my maternal relatives basically dropped the German language, having retained it in Pennsylvania for a long time after immigrating. My grandmother, who was a child during WWII can understand German but not speak it, and my mother knows one German phrase: “Es, kinder, es.”

  29. @jtgw
    BLS seems confused as to whether it's cultural or genetic, but those are quite different, as well as both being based on the unquestioned premise that the special behavior of Dubois County cannot be explained by economic or sociological factors.

    Basically, amateur social science is fun speculation but scientifically worthless.

    Confused is not a synonym for agnostic, or even for curious.

  30. Sounds like Fredericksburg, TX. It’s a great place, just like all of the German settled areas of the Texas Hill Country west of Austin and San Antonio. I go there often and I may move there when I’m old.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fredericksburg,_Texas

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_German

    “Some 1,035 people report speaking German at home in Fredericksburg,[7] the town with the largest community of Texas German speakers, representing 12.48% of the total population, 840 in New Braunfels,[8] 150 in Schulenburg,[8] 85 in Stonewall,[9] 70 in Boerne,[8] 65 in Harper,[10] 45 in Comfort[11] and 19 in Weimar,[8] all of which except for Schulenburg and Weimar, lie in the traditional Texas German heartland of the Hill Country. Gillespie County, with the communities of Fredericksburg, Harper, Stonewall, and Luckenbach, has a German-speaking population of 2,270, 11.51% of the county’s total. In all, 82,100 German-speakers reside in the state of Texas,[8] including European German speakers.”

  31. @BurplesonAFB
    On a man to man basis, the Germans and the Anglos (genetically distant by 1500 years only) are the most significant human beings of the last 200 years of Modernity. And we demonize success.

    Left out the link on the British data:

    One thousand and five hundred years ago innumerable Germans, Saxons, Angles and Jutes, came to the shores of Britain, and transformed it into England. One thousand and five hundred years ago the trunk of the English language was grafted upon a fundamentally British ethnic root. Post-Roman Britain was subject to a massive migration of Germans in the 6th century, and, the majority of the ancestry of the people of the British Isles derives from the period before the Anglo-Saxon migrations.

    http://www.unz.com/gnxp/cuius-regio-eius-religio-in-anglo-saxon-england/?highlight=england

  32. Evansville too has a large German population and celebrates an Oktoberfest-like fall festival during October. Until WWI, Evansville had a couple of German language newspapers and of course there were German breweries there until quite recently.

    My understanding is that the German immigration societies sent teams of surveyors to America to scope out the most fertile land. All that spring runoff from the Alleghenies ends up as silt covering the Ohio river valley. You’d be hard pressed to find more fertile soil than the flood plain of the Ohio where Evansville is located. The Ohio River, incidentally, adds a greater volume of water to the Mississippi than the Mississippi does. Some of the largest hardwood trees in America grow in southern Indiana.

  33. Why are you spending so much time on this chitty professor?I guarantee you he couldn’t care less about the validity of his theories, so long as they gain him recognition and the accompanying rise in status and all it entails. Whether they’re correct or not is beside the point and all the same to this chitty fellow, so why you devote so much time to debunking him is beyond me. I almost guarantee you he himself laughs at his bullshit theories when he’s drunk and among friends, and then (justifiably so) laughs at the country.

    • Replies: @rob
    Why are you spending so much time on this chitty professor?

    I agree. This is just bullchit.
  34. @Ivy
    The German influence is likely to have echoes in numerous small towns elsewhere in the Midwest such as in Nebraska and Kansas, and down into south Texas. Anecdotally, the civic-mindedness and respect was more apparent.

    The situation in Indiana is sort of similar to the one in Missouri where another far Northwest border county, Nodaway, is much different than its neighbors, but in a reverse way. “Nodaway County has a significant history of violence”, as the Wiki says, because while the rural parts of North (of I-70) Missouri are full of Scandinavian and German farmers and other good burghers, Nodaway is a northern outpost of the Old South. And damn proud of it to this day. I have met descendants of the Youngers (as in Cole Younger) and several other names of Old West rambunctiousness from there.

    • Replies: @PV van der Byl
    This Wikipedia entry on one Nodaway county miscreant illustrates your point:

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_McElroy

    Definitely rambunctious rather than the Good Burgher type.
  35. @syonredux

    On a man to man basis, the Germans and the Anglos (genetically distant by 1500 years only) are the most significant human beings of the last 200 years of Modernity. And we demonize success.

     

    Actually, recent studies show that the Germanic invasion of Britain was not quite as demographically overwhelming as some have thought:

    One thousand and five hundred years ago innumerable Germans, Saxons, Angles and Jutes, came to the shores of Britain, and transformed it into England. One thousand and five hundred years ago the trunk of the English language was grafted upon a fundamentally British ethnic root. Post-Roman Britain was subject to a massive migration of Germans in the 6th century, and, the majority of the ancestry of the people of the British Isles derives from the period before the Anglo-Saxon migrations.
     
    Leaving that to one side, here are some interesting figures regarding the inter-relationship between demography and accomplishment:



    Nobel Prize WINNERS:

    Latin America: 15

    Anglo-America (USA plus Canada): 376

    So, Latin America is flatland.And Anglo-America is the Alps.

    Now, let’s look at the sources of American accomplishment:

    As reported in the 2010 census, the major Euro ethnic groups in the USA are:Germans, Irish, English, and Italians.How many Nobel Prize winners have these ethnic groups produced in their places of origin?

    Germany: 102

    Ireland: 10

    England/UK: 115

    Italy:20

    Clearly, the Anglos and the Germans having been doing a lot of heavy lifting.Also, it's pretty clear that having 100 million Hispanic Mestizos and Amerinds in the USA by 2060 is bad news for America.

    No major disagreement but it should be mentioned that the Irish population has long been less than 1/10 of either Germany or the UK.

    Re the Italians: How many of the 20 prize winners came from south of Rome?

    • Replies: @jjbees
    I am guessing none of the Italians will be from below Rome.

    And the Irish nobel winners will be mainly anglo transplants.
    , @Anonymous
    Renato Dulbecco was born in southern Italy. According to his Nobel autobiography, his father was Ligurian (northwest Italian), and his mother was Calabrese (southern Italian).
  36. It should be “Scots-Irish”, rather than “Scotch-Irish”. “Scotch” is considered offensive these days.

    • Replies: @iffen
    Speak for yourself.
    , @Curle

    “Scotch” is considered offensive these days.
     
    Nice to know, but I don't remember the vote to change the connotation?

    Ever wonder who makes these calls with regard to language, useful/no longer useful. Offensive/not offensive? I assume whichever institution is most controlled by the Left. But, why do the rest of us go along, like sheep? I'm prepared to declare the label progressive offensive because it contains unsupportable conclusions and is overly self-congratulatory.
  37. @Jefferson
    Why is St. Patrick's Day more widely celebrated in the U.S than Oktoberfest? When German Americans outnumber Irish Americans.

    In the 21st Century does German culture and traditions still get a bad rep in the U.S because of World War 2? Just because you celebrate Oktoberfest, it does not automatically mean you worship Adolf Hitler.

    Not WWII, it was WWI. Cincinnati where I live was about as German as you can get around the turn of the 20th century, but the cultural influence was killed off by WWI and Prohibition. It took about 50 years before there was a German cultural revival with, for example, the largest Oktoberest in the U.S.

  38. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    It might be worth looking at patterns of how settlers were first recruited and see if that still has an effect into the modern day.

    My understanding of the German settlement of frontier Texas (circa 1844 onward) is that, at least in some areas, rich land speculators recruited the settlers by appealing directly to minor German “princes” who still existed in un-unified Germany. The result was that often an entire group of people from the same community emigrated. Not sure if the same happened elsewhere in the US:

    Germans, the Handbook of Texas Online:

    “…In the late 1830s German immigration to Texas was widely publicized… The publicity attracted a group of petty noblemen who envisioned a project to colonize German peasants in Texas. The nobles hoped the project would bring them wealth, power, and prestige. It could also, they thought, alleviate overpopulation in rural Germany. Their organization, variously called the Adelsverein, the Verein zum Schutze Deutscher Einwanderer in Texas, or the German Emigration Company, began work in the early 1840s. They chose Texas as the site for their colony… perhaps because Texas was an independent republic where the princes might exercise some political control. Though the… Adelsverein was a financial disaster, it transported thousands of Germans, mostly peasants, to Texas. Between 1844 and 1847 more than 7,000 Germans reached the new land. Some of the immigrants perished in epidemics, many…. form the western end of the German Belt. The Adelsverein founded the towns of New Braunfels and Fredericksburg.

    Most of the German immigrant clusters came from west central Germany, particularly Nassau, southern Hanover, Brunswick, Hesse, and western Thuringia. The nobles focused their advertising and recruitment on these provinces, their home districts. …one of the leaders of the Adelsverein… some thirty-four villages in his home county, the Dillkreis in Nassau, contributed to the migration. The chain-migration process in the Adelsverein movement drew on both the local and provincial levels. Some farm villages lost a large part of their population to the Texas project. The Hanoverian village of Gadenstedt, for instance, sent at least seventy-three people during the years 1844 to 1847. Twenty other places near Gadenstedt also contributed settlers to the Adelsverein undertaking…

    …The German settlers who immigrated to Texas… generally were solid middle-class peasants. They were land-owning families, artisans, and, in a few cases, university-educated professional people and intellectuals. The majority were farmers with a modest experience in trade. The Germans were ambitious farmers and artisans who believed their futures were cramped by the social and economic system at home. They were not poverty-stricken and oppressed. Indeed, they were able to afford the substantial cash investment required in overseas migration.”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adelsverein:

    “Adelsverein was organized on April 20, 1842, by 21 German noblemen at Biebrich on the Rhine, in the castle of…

    …The land grant was located in Comanche territory, and in order to colonize… first negotiated a treaty between the German Immigration Company (Adelsverein) and the Penateka Comanche.”

  39. BLS says:

    So, here are the observations I noticed over the years. The earliest Scotch-Irish and British (Anglo) settlers had a run of finding land and starting farms in the hill country. Of course that land to this day isn’t much for farming but better for livestock and remains relatively economically challenged. When the Germans came they found some of the best land, even though they were beaten to it by two decades.

    Not necessarily. The actual case may be the opposite. As scholar Thomas Sowell shows (1981, 1983) the Germans actually came along after the Scotch-Irish had the pick of the BEST land. The Germans typically took over less than prime land and worked harder and more thoroughly- laboriously pulling up stumps for example, left behind by the Scotch Irish, and building more barns for livestock rather leave them to the elements- more so than the Scotch-Irish who were sloppier farmers. Germans did not find the best land. They put in greater effort on “second string” land and made it more productive.

    And curiously, the Germans in the US, tended to be more tolerant people- not flaming liberals of their era- far from it- but generally willing to live and let live other people in peace, unlike the white Irish who were always picking fights among themselves and with others. And though German individuals and communities had some diversity of opinion, German Americans overall, on average, were more supportive of the abolition of slavery than the Irish.

    .
    Essentially what I noticed and what is a long murmured joke is that Germans were successful wherever they went and made the area more successful based on the percentage of German majority. Anglo areas struggled and continue to, and both groups are just miles apart.

    Fair enough but then how does genetics explain this? Both groups are white Europeans related closely genetically.

    .
    My hypothesis has been that Germanness matters.
    Sure, a fair minded observer would say you have a point. They can be contrasted against the Scotch-Irish, originating in the more volatile, more violent and disruptive England-Scot-Wales border lands were a large proportion of settlers in the American South, and transplanted that disreputable, lower-end “redneck” culture there and elsewhere, with dire results at certain times and places. They can also be contrasted also against the equally if not more violent and poverty-culture Catholic white Irish. (Sowell 2005- Black Rednecks, White Liberals).

    .
    Ultimately, I suggest that rural development and economic development dollars spent are many times wasted simply because of the ethnic background of the people.. All over Indiana places where German ancestry is a higher percentage of the population the better the money is spent.

    Maybe true in part if as to a specific farming project, but keep in mind that rural and economic development assistance dollars ALSO benefited Germans as well. Rural electrification for example, a great boon, benefited German farmers as well as non German. Econ development dollars are often dollars spent on public goods benefiting large areas, and economies of scale become a necessity. A road running from Germantown into Irish town benefits both areas, and it would be inefficient to stop the road after 6 miles because you were on the outskirts of Germantown.

    Likewise electrification- sometimes it can only pay for itself by scale, millions of subscribers over a large area sharing the costs. Rerouting all power lines around the Italian part of town for example fails to take advantage of economies of scale. With something like electricity even the poor will pay the price for it, using a larger portion of their income- but they will pay the price. In fact dense urban areas where there are more people per square mile, even if poorer, can yield more profits that mo betta, more sparsely settled Germanic areas. A hard-nosed utility manager doing the math may well be seeing more profits where there were LESS Germans, compared to say more densely packed in Irish, for a given area. In such a case those idyllic German neighborhoods may not be so hot after all.

    .
    Dubois continues success with very few move ins but with people cultivated from long family ties. Kids go to college but many come back unlike other dying rural areas where the smart kids move to Indianapolis or out of state.

    Dubois sounds like a nice place and all, but doesn’t seen particularly profitable. Packed tenements filled with poor Jews, or Poles in NYC might actually not only be more profitable per square foot or square mile of area, but would eventually post higher incomes and education levels than bucolic Dubois. Nice blond haired kids might be moving back in and all, and that makes for a nice, slower paced suburban/rural “Leave It To Beaver” feel and such, but you notice the place ain’t pace-setting Silicon Valley by any means, or bustling, hustling New York where a lot more money is to be made, and a lot more diverse cultural amenities and selections are at hand.

    There is also another side to “Germanness” that you don’t mention- which some German writers themselves have criticized. The much commented upon “Teutonic character” with its supposed conformity, robotism, and penchant for the systematic cruelty. Unfair some say. But why should Germans get a pure halo and be exempt from scrutiny when other people are so casually stereotyped? If other groups are to be stereotyped for their supposed “proclivities” then the Germans too, as northern European “role models”, must take their place in the dock for their “proclivities” . Christopher Browning’s detailed study “Ordinary Men” shows the conformist side and the banal cruelty of the “Teuton” as ordinary cooks, bakers and accountants in the SS police battalions, killed tens of thousands willingly, even zealously, even when they could opt out without penalty. Some even invited their wives and girlfriends to witness the good cleansing work.

    Some might argue that the rebellious, flashy, wild, fiercely independent “Irish model” that settled the south (Scotch-Irish version), and the northern cities (Catholic version) is preferable to conformist, “European Teuton” Germanic types. The identification of the Scotch-Irish with the rugged frontiersman has struck a chord in popular white culture over and above the “Teuton.” Re “German character” see Delbruck et al below…

    http://onlinebooks.library.upenn.edu/webbin/book/browse?type=lcsubc&key=National%20characteristics%2C%20German&c=x

    • Replies: @pork pie hat
    I'm not sure it's this video, but Jordan Peterson talks about personality traits - conscientiousness, orderliness, and disgust. And uses Nazism as an example of too-high orderliness:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qalR6Vx3Bpw&index=18&list=PL22J3VaeABQCfQy9Yg2y8fi5cI8HYUUct

    (If not that one, probably this one:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qH9-xsuPiUk&index=16&list=PL22J3VaeABQCfQy9Yg2y8fi5cI8HYUUct)

    Also orderliness vs openness to experience, useful when speculating about national character.
    , @Anonymous
    Well, from "getting a pure halo" to "Nazism as national trait" and genetic procilivity, now that is some nuanced reasoning!
    , @SFG
    "Fair enough but then how does genetics explain this? Both groups are white Europeans related closely genetically."

    Groups that start out the same can diverge over time due to selective pressures. Do you think Scandinavians have the same propensity for violence they had during Viking times?
    , @Gallo-Roman

    Nice blond haired kids might be moving back in and all, and that makes for a nice, slower paced suburban/rural “Leave It To Beaver” feel and such, but you notice the place ain’t pace-setting Silicon Valley by any means...
     
    Why should it be?

    But why should Germans get a pure halo and be exempt from scrutiny when other people are so casually stereotyped? If other groups are to be stereotyped for their supposed “proclivities” then the Germans too...
     
    Yes, the Germans have been getting a pass about their national character for way too long now. This "numinous Teuton" crap that's permeated popular culture for the last century has got to stop. Why are we so afraid to have an honest conversation about the dark side of Germans?
    , @Boomstick
    I dunno--there were a good collection of refugees from the German revolution of 1848, including in the Texas hill country. They formed the backbone of a lot of Socialist local governments, such as Milwaukee.
    , @NorthOfTheOneOhOne

    And curiously, the Germans in the US, tended to be more tolerant people- not flaming liberals of their era- far from it- but generally willing to live and let live other people in peace, unlike the white Irish who were always picking fights among themselves and with others.
     
    Which is I guess why the KKK was so popular with the citizens of the Great Midwestern Teutonic Whiteopia during the 1920's?

    The second Klan emerged during the nadir of American race relations, but of its growth was primarily in response to new issues such as urbanization, immigration and industrialization. The massive immigration of Catholics and Jews from eastern and southern Europe led to fears among Protestants about an alien power that seemed to dominate the largest cities. The second Klan by the mid 1920s achieved its greatest political power in Indiana; it was active throughout the South, Midwest, especially Michigan; and in the West, in Colorado and Oregon.
     
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku_Klux_Klan
  40. Where the numbers of Germans was – and is – of a critical mass to maintain a degree of insularity, analogous cases can be found. There are such communities in Brazil and Chile, providing even starker contrast to their surrounding communities than Dubois County to theirs. Paradoxically, the greater society recognizes the incongruity, but prohibits itself from drawing any meaningful conclusions, satisfied merely in the observation of the divergence from the norm. The question becomes the rhetorical, “Why can’t we be more like them?”, or the facile, “We should be more like them!”, but never the more probing, “Why aren’t we more like them?”

  41. Anonymous • Disclaimer says: • Website

    St Patrick’s revelers are URBAN and their PARADES get media attention.

    Octoberfesters not so much.

    Also the Irish have slightly better folk music and a sense of humor that translates better to the outgroup.

    The Kraut is more refined in all matters than the Patty. But we’re talking holidays.

    Both have quality brewing.

    Both tribes have beautiful women but the edge goes to the even-tempered, blonde, bodacious St Paulie girl.

    Mostly it comes down to what exactly creates outgroup affinity for an ingroup’s holiday. More peeps wanna party with the Irish.

    But it may all come down to promotion and the Octoberfest promotion skews higher IQ with less insanity.

    Mardi Gras and St Patty’s both probably far out poll Octoberfest for best drinking holiday…

    • Replies: @BubbaJoe
    Please lad, it's Paddy, not "Patty".

    "Both have quality brewing"- no they don't. Guinness is a Protestant beer, as is nearly every major alcoholic beverage of Irish origin (Beamish, Murphy's, Jameson, Smithwick's (Smith-icks), Bushmills, Harp, Jameson. And while we're at it as is early every major industry as well as the banks.) In this regard, the Irish are like the South- they love to drink, but aren't very good at making good drink. Or, rather, are happy to drink and not bother making that which they drink. Regardless, compared to the wide variety of beers you'll find on the continent (Germanic, Belgic, etc.), Irish beers don't hold up too well.

    Again though, please avoid the "Patty".
  42. Peter Meyer [AKA "Peter Fagan"] says:

    I’m always suspicious of self-reported American ancestry, especially as concerns the more “exotic” strains like German, Norwegian etc. In the USA British surnames (English, Scottish, Welsh) still overwhelm German surnames. The supposedly common name change at Ellis Island is more a myth than a historical reality.

    But there are definite cultural differences between the Midwest and the Southeast, and for that matter between the Midwest and the Northeast. Midwesterners on the whole have a very egalitarian cast of mind; one man may be a rich farmer and another man a poor farmer, but they are both farmers. Very different from the regions with a heavier English influence, where living in the right neighborhood/going to the right church/attending the right university is thought to entitle one to automatic deference from the lumpens. No coincidence that most of the best public universities are in the Midwest and its colony California.

    • Replies: @Hans Olo
    "I’m always suspicious of self-reported American ancestry, especially as concerns the more “exotic” strains like German, Norwegian etc. In the USA British surnames (English, Scottish, Welsh) still overwhelm German surnames. The supposedly common name change at Ellis Island is more a myth than a historical reality."

    German is exotic?? They were an absolutely humongous immigrant group.

    Norwegian may sound exotic in, say, New York or South Carolina, but its almost monotonously common in the upper midwest.

    Italians seem a bit exotic in rural Minnesota.

    And I can tell you that, wherever they did it, the replacement of ethnic names with English was very very common. My ancestors are prime examples. If you meet someone in Minnesota named Johnson, chances are their great-great-grandfather was a Swede named Jonsson or a Norwegian named Johansen, or something similar.
    , @iffen
    Many German surnames were Anglicized. Almost everywhere, including those areas where the Germans were a large minority, the public records were in the hands of English speakers.
  43. @FWIW
    "I think this is more of a case of Germans beating the Scotch-Irish, who traditionally haven’t been known for bourgeois values and being prosperous. "

    A lot of the Scots-Irish pass themselves off as WASPS. They are WASPS in a technical sense. Anyway ... they definitely wanted to distinguish themselves from hillbillies.

    I had a great grandmother that went to a huge amount of trouble to find a vague link to someone that died in the American Revolution.

    As odd as it sounds today, people used to care about this stuff.

    A lot of the Scots-Irish pass themselves off as WASPS. They are WASPS in a technical sense. Anyway … they definitely wanted to distinguish themselves from hillbillies.

    Are they technically WASPS?

    I mean Anglo or Saxon. I bet neither.

    They are celts.

    • Replies: @FUBAR007

    Are they technically WASPS?

    I mean Anglo or Saxon. I bet neither.
     
    They aren't "WASPs" in the contemporary sense of that term. However, a significant portion of the original Scots-Irish were neither Scottish nor Irish; they were English living in the area between the Midlands and Scotland proper. In terms of language, folkways, etc., they had more in common with the English than with the Gaelic Scottish highlanders and the Catholic Irish. See Jim Webb's Born Fighting and David Hackett Fischer's Albion's Seed.

    IMO, the Scots-Irish are most appropriately thought of as "frontier Anglos" stemming from the northern end of an English cultural continuum with the more stereotypical Anglo-Saxons at the opposite, southern end.

    On a similar note, a lot of Americans who self-identify as Irish, particularly those who aren't Catholic, are most likely of English descent, too. They're only Irish in the sense that their ancestors moved from Britain to Ireland first before immigrating to North America.

    They are celts.
     
    So are a lot of the English if you go back far enough.
    , @NorthOfTheOneOhOne
    Why not? A lot of those that fancy themselves WASPs are more Anglo-Norman than Anglo-Saxon.
    , @Jacobite
    The average indigenous Englishman is still has around 50% Celtic blood, i.e. Briton DNA haplogroups. The Angles, Saxons, and Jutes conquered but did not thoroughly displace the inhabitants of Roman Britain. The degree of Celticness runs from about 40% to 60% on an east to west cline.
  44. Clearly, this is a hate site, to even publish data about Celts is beyond the pale. Some thoughts need to be stopped before they are started.

  45. @syonredux
    RE: Germans outperforming Anglos in Dubois County,

    Southern Indiana is, well, kind of Southern.The phrase that comes up in lots of histories when it comes time to describe Southern Indiana and Illinois is "quasi-Southern."And the South has not done well in terms of human accomplishment.Murray provides some interesting figures:

    An even more striking aspect of the map is the white space covering the American South. Although more lightly populated than the North, the American South had a substantial population throughout American history.In 1850, for example, the White population of the South was 5.6 million, compared to 8.5 million in the Northeast. In 1900 the comparison was 12.1 million to 20.6 million. By 1950, the gap had almost closed-36.9 million compared to 37.4 million.While it is understandable that the South did not have as many significant figures as the North, the magnitude of the difference goes far beyond population.The Northeastern states of New England plus New York, Pennsylvania, and New Jersey had produced 184 significant figures by 1950, while the states that made up the Confederacy during the Civil War had produced 24, a ratio of more than 7:1. (HUMAN ACCOMPLISHMENT, 304-5).

    This is the same argument Sowell makes in his Black rednecks, White liberals and in earlier books. The white south is more backward than the white north. Indeed some IQ tests show white Southerners almost one standard deviation below the northerners, with some blacks from various northern states, outperforming southern whites from certain states. (Sowell 1981, 1978 1983, Montagu 1972)

    As Sowell notes re white Southern culture:

    ” What the [white] rednecks or crackers brought with them across the ocean was a whole constellation of attitudes, values, and behavior patterns that might have made sense in the world in which they had lived for centuries, but which would prove to be counterproductive in the world to which they were going — and counterproductive to the blacks who would live in their midst for centuries before emerging into freedom and migrating to the great urban centers of the United States, taking with them similar values.

    The cultural values and social patterns prevalent among Southern whites included an aversion to work, proneness to violence, neglect of education, sexual promiscuity, improvidence, drunkenness, lack of entrepreneurship, reckless searches for excitement, a lively music and dance, and a style of religious oratory marked by strident rhetoric, unbridled emotions, and flamboyant imagery… Touchy pride, vanity, and boastful self-dramatization were also part of this redneck culture among people from regions of Britain where the civilization was the least developed.”

    • Replies: @Jim
    Southern whites are somewhat below Northern whites in average IQ but your statement that they are one standard deviation below is complete total and utter nonsense.
    , @Kat Grey
    "Regions of Britain where the civilisation was least developed"

    That statement falls flat on its arse when one peruses the lengthy list of Scottish inventors and Ulster Scots industry. In the 19th century Belfast was a powerhouse of manufactory and production. The legendary Titanic was built at Harland & Wolff shipyard.
    , @NorthOfTheOneOhOne
    So blacks are really just dark skinned hillbillies? Really? Could have fooled me!

    Amazing how the Scots-Irish could hold on to those bad habits for generations, yet blacks brought no bad habits with them to the Americas. Sorry, got to call bullshit on that one!
  46. @Jefferson
    Why is St. Patrick's Day more widely celebrated in the U.S than Oktoberfest? When German Americans outnumber Irish Americans.

    In the 21st Century does German culture and traditions still get a bad rep in the U.S because of World War 2? Just because you celebrate Oktoberfest, it does not automatically mean you worship Adolf Hitler.

    The Irish have been promoted by the Jews.

    The Irish are so low that even Asian women avoid white men in Ireland…whereas the black women are welcomed with open arms by Irish men.

    In America you’ll often see Irish men with Asian women who aren’t smart enough to know they are dating Irish men….the Asians just go ‘Oooh white…yippeee!’ and I laugh and laugh and laugh…

  47. @Jean Cocteausten
    In rural Ohio, when you see a mailbox with the name Fisher on it, look at the property. If it's spic-and-span, with shiny doorknobs, fresh paint, meticulously groomed shrubs and lawnmower lines in a careful pattern, you can bet the name was originally spelled Fischer.

    Heh. My family named was Anglicized during WWI.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar


    Heh. My family named was Anglicized during WWI.

     

    Mine wasn't, though an unrelated neighbor of the same name changed his. Grandpa came from a big family, the other guy was alone. Always arrange coverage.
  48. Germans are responsible for much of the culture of the central Midwest.

    The specifically German aspects were largely stamped out during the World Wars, but the clean, upright nature still holds around.

  49. eah says:

    apparently, shedding population

    Here is a (kind of) graph recently featured on the blog Refugee Resettlement Watch. It shows that the government and its refugee contractors are sending disproportionately large numbers of refugees (relative to population) to eg SD and ND. So perhaps some of these ‘upwardly mobile’ rural areas won’t be that way for long.

    Would this be worth a look.

    For what purpose? To eg attempt to preserve “Germanness”? Good luck.

  50. OT, but wow! This was on TV tonight

  51. @Father O'Hara
    Thoughts meandering:Maybe Germans just have a knack for the farming life?Remember Eddie Albert in Green Acres?? Note:Re Sowell,he's a brave guy,I am a fan,but he,like Lynn,for his own reasons,will be hard on the Irish.Just sayin.

    Sowell,he’s a brave guy,I am a fan,but he,like Lynn,for his own reasons,will be hard on the Irish.Just sayin.

    While at Harvard, he had to walk through Southie every day. That alone would account for it.

    He chose to dress like a prole, presumably changing on arrival at campus. The Micks didn’t care that he was black, but if they ever learned he was a Harvard man…

  52. The west side of Cincinnati is heavily German Catholic, mostly working class with strong church communities and Catholic schools that do well in academics, sports, and the arts. The east side is Protestant of various backgrounds trending agnostic, with a blend of SWPL and sub/exurban corporate types. Traditionally strong public schools starting to struggle due to NCLB and Common Core, so homeschooling and some charters popping up.

    It’s like two different cities.

    I grew up on the east side, and returned after 20 years with my wife to buy a house (solidly) built in 1940 in a leafy west side neighborhood. The section 8 tide is nearby, but seems to have crested.

    • Replies: @eah
    The west side of Cincinnati is heavily German Catholic, mostly working class with strong church communities and Catholic schools that do well in academics, sports, and the arts.

    You are right. I was born in Cincinnati, and lived with my parents in NW Cincinnati. We attended Catholic schools, which are still very strong in the area.
    , @Anonymous
    Marge Schott was German Catholic and from Cincinnati.
    , @PenskeFile
    German Catholics also abounded just across the Ohio river to Kentucky in Newport, Covington, Bellvue etc. My wifes family is 15/16th German and 1/16 Irish and it was interesting to see from genealogical research, backed up by census documents available on ancestry.com, how many family members moved back and forth across the river over the years.

    Ancestry.com has some great tools. I was able to document many of her ancestors back to the 1850's and identify where in Germany they came from. The trail runs cold before that, but I assume that most had lived in those villages for centuries prior to that.
  53. @Desiderius
    Heh. My family named was Anglicized during WWI.

    Heh. My family named was Anglicized during WWI.

    Mine wasn’t, though an unrelated neighbor of the same name changed his. Grandpa came from a big family, the other guy was alone. Always arrange coverage.

    • Replies: @Anonymous Nephew
    Even the UK Royal Family changed their name during WWI - from Saxe-Coburg-Gotha to Windsor.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Saxe-Coburg_and_Gotha#United_Kingdom

    The Volga Germans were to Russia as the US Germans are in the US - indeed many US Germans ARE Volga Germans.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volga_Germans#North_America
  54. @Jefferson
    Why is St. Patrick's Day more widely celebrated in the U.S than Oktoberfest? When German Americans outnumber Irish Americans.

    In the 21st Century does German culture and traditions still get a bad rep in the U.S because of World War 2? Just because you celebrate Oktoberfest, it does not automatically mean you worship Adolf Hitler.

    Why is St. Patrick’s Day more widely celebrated in the U.S than Oktoberfest? When German Americans outnumber Irish Americans.

    1. Are you sure that’s true?
    2. Oktoberfest is a Bavarian thing, not a German thing.

  55. nor is it near any major interstates, airports, or rail ( the usual suspects in economic development studies for why places fail)

    Please explain. Isn’t it generally held to be the other way around?

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Sure, New York City is where you can get from the Atlantic to the Great Lakes via the Hudson River and the Eire Canal, Chicago is where you can get from the Great Lakes to the Mississippi.

    Dallas mostly exists due to force of will of local promoters, but most other rich cities have some transportation logic working for them.

  56. @Jefferson
    Why is St. Patrick's Day more widely celebrated in the U.S than Oktoberfest? When German Americans outnumber Irish Americans.

    In the 21st Century does German culture and traditions still get a bad rep in the U.S because of World War 2? Just because you celebrate Oktoberfest, it does not automatically mean you worship Adolf Hitler.

    The reason Oktoberfest isn’t more broadly celebrated is that it is specific to Bavaria and it wasn’t started until the early 18oo’s (so wasn’t widely spread, even among Bavarians, until later)

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    It's big in Blumenau, in the southern state of Santa Catarina, in Brazil: http://www.oktoberfestblumenau.com.br/
  57. Of course, being German makes all the difference in the world.

    We forget:

    1. Germany wasn’t a unified state until 1871. Compare that to centuries old unifications of France and England. This disarray and fragmentation exposed Germans to numerous invasions, conquests, and civil wars, all sorts of awful and brutality for centuries.

    2. Just a little more than 40 years later, this unified Germany very nearly destroyed an alliance of the greatest naval power and numerically much larger land armies. People don’t appreciate how close Germany came to winning on the Western front in the Spring and Summer of 1918.

    3. Greatly reduced and occupied, economically crippled and enduring and thwarting a serious communist revolution and depression, this unified Germany in 1939-43 once again (with much fewer resources) very nearly destroyed an alliance this time even more imposing and powerful than in 1914.

    4. Territorially reduced by a quarter, absolutely ravished and torn, occupied, humiliated and divided in two, West Germany becomes the economic powerhouse in Europe in the latter half of the 20th Century despite having to pay massive war reparations, providing for the economic and social welfare of much of the citizenry of Israel AND having to stand at the front lines of the Soviet threat.

    5. West Germany unified with East Germany and absorbed nearly 20 million people with less than half of its own per capita resources, economy and wealth and yet was still able to lead in the creation of the Euro, EU, etc by the turn of the century.

    I cannot think of any people who could have accomplished all this (good or bad, moral or evil) after suffering catastrophe upon catastrophe. France and the UK never recovered (really) after the butchery and trauma of WWI. Russia’s never recovered from the debacle of WWI and Communism. One could argue that the US showed really well in recovering from the Civil War, but it had land and resources on its side (and millions of German and other Northern European immigrants to help).

    I don’t think any other people is better able to organize itself for productive purposes.

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    "4. Territorially reduced by a quarter, absolutely ravished and torn, occupied, humiliated and divided in two, West Germany becomes the economic powerhouse in Europe in the latter half of the 20th Century despite having to pay massive war reparations, providing for the economic and social welfare of much of the citizenry of Israel AND having to stand at the front lines of the Soviet threat."

    West Germany's post-war economic boom was indeed impressive, but its reparations to Israel totaled about $1.5 billion over 14 years. And Germany received a similar amount from the US in Marshall Plan grants. As for standing on the front lines of the Soviet threat, sure, but much of the heavy lifting there was done by US and British troops stationed in Germany.

    West Germany was definitely the big winner of the post-WWII peace. In contrast, Britain, which was on the winning side of the war, didn't fare so well economically post-WWII until it struck oil in the North Sea.

    , @Rob McX
    Germany wasn’t a unified state until 1871. Compare that to centuries old unifications of France and England.

    France - not really. Administratively, legally and linguistically, it wasn't fully unified until the 19th century. Despite the absolute monarchy under the Bourbons, it was nonetheless a convoluted hodgepodge of laws varying by region. It made taxation, among other things, a nightmare.

    At the time of the Revolution, people spoke eight or nine mutually unintelligible dialects of French, with only half the population being able to speak any of the "standard" form of the language. Even by 1871, only a quarter of the population spoke standard French as their native tongue. According to the linguist Henriette Walter, it was the mass mobilisation for the First World War that finally gave standard French its status as the de facto national language.
    , @Anonymous
    South Korea comes to mind........
    , @Whiskey
    Germany in Spring 1918 offensives took land it could not hold at terrible cost as the British Army fought radically different. Defense in depth, counter battery, air strafing attacks at the rear to harass reinforcements. Both the Kaisers sons serving on the front argued in May to retreat across the Rhine. Particularly as the Balkan front collapsed.

    The professional British Army being terribly small was esentially wiped out in the Sept. holding actions in Belgium 1914 that slowed Moltke down. It took until late 1917 to rebuild it. By that time it was obvious to mist German officers at the front no victory was possible. Manpower attrition, supply, and a more astute enemy being the problem.
  58. Dahlia says:

    I grew up in a community like this, Overwhelmingly German surrounded by the Scots-Irish. It was founded as a Catholic colony so everyone was overwhelmingly from zsouthern Germany. We also had a few of Irish, Italian, and central European ancestry.

    Mom always said that according to the 70s census, we had more millionaires per capita of any place in the U.S. Don’t know the veracity of the claim, but we were at least far wealthier than the surrounding areas. Interesting because Southern Germans are the conservative hillbillies of Germany, yet there exists this large chasm between the two groups with regards to intelligence, work ethic, conscientiousness, etc.

    One funny story, the governor of Florida during WWI, who sounded like a politician in “O Brother, Where Art Thou”, railed against our community, believing the monks at our abbey were storing firearms to arm a German resistance.

    • Replies: @Dahlia
    Actually, I think the IQ difference probably isn't that great and that differences would still exist if held constant.
  59. @Father O'Hara
    Thoughts meandering:Maybe Germans just have a knack for the farming life?Remember Eddie Albert in Green Acres?? Note:Re Sowell,he's a brave guy,I am a fan,but he,like Lynn,for his own reasons,will be hard on the Irish.Just sayin.

    Thoughts meandering:Maybe Germans just have a knack for the farming life?

    There was a term I forget for a stereotypical German immigrant farmer who was very well read and even knew Latin, but was less impressive at agriculture.

    But a century before that, the view seems to be the opposite.

  60. @Bill B.
    nor is it near any major interstates, airports, or rail ( the usual suspects in economic development studies for why places fail)


    Please explain. Isn't it generally held to be the other way around?

    Sure, New York City is where you can get from the Atlantic to the Great Lakes via the Hudson River and the Eire Canal, Chicago is where you can get from the Great Lakes to the Mississippi.

    Dallas mostly exists due to force of will of local promoters, but most other rich cities have some transportation logic working for them.

    • Replies: @Mike Zwick
    Dallas is a rail hub. Many railroads crossed each other at this spot early on which attracted other railroads to build out to Dallas.
  61. eah says:
    @Desiderius
    The west side of Cincinnati is heavily German Catholic, mostly working class with strong church communities and Catholic schools that do well in academics, sports, and the arts. The east side is Protestant of various backgrounds trending agnostic, with a blend of SWPL and sub/exurban corporate types. Traditionally strong public schools starting to struggle due to NCLB and Common Core, so homeschooling and some charters popping up.

    It's like two different cities.

    I grew up on the east side, and returned after 20 years with my wife to buy a house (solidly) built in 1940 in a leafy west side neighborhood. The section 8 tide is nearby, but seems to have crested.

    The west side of Cincinnati is heavily German Catholic, mostly working class with strong church communities and Catholic schools that do well in academics, sports, and the arts.

    You are right. I was born in Cincinnati, and lived with my parents in NW Cincinnati. We attended Catholic schools, which are still very strong in the area.

  62. @Dahlia
    I grew up in a community like this, Overwhelmingly German surrounded by the Scots-Irish. It was founded as a Catholic colony so everyone was overwhelmingly from zsouthern Germany. We also had a few of Irish, Italian, and central European ancestry.

    Mom always said that according to the 70s census, we had more millionaires per capita of any place in the U.S. Don't know the veracity of the claim, but we were at least far wealthier than the surrounding areas. Interesting because Southern Germans are the conservative hillbillies of Germany, yet there exists this large chasm between the two groups with regards to intelligence, work ethic, conscientiousness, etc.

    One funny story, the governor of Florida during WWI, who sounded like a politician in "O Brother, Where Art Thou", railed against our community, believing the monks at our abbey were storing firearms to arm a German resistance.

    Actually, I think the IQ difference probably isn’t that great and that differences would still exist if held constant.

  63. @Desiderius
    The west side of Cincinnati is heavily German Catholic, mostly working class with strong church communities and Catholic schools that do well in academics, sports, and the arts. The east side is Protestant of various backgrounds trending agnostic, with a blend of SWPL and sub/exurban corporate types. Traditionally strong public schools starting to struggle due to NCLB and Common Core, so homeschooling and some charters popping up.

    It's like two different cities.

    I grew up on the east side, and returned after 20 years with my wife to buy a house (solidly) built in 1940 in a leafy west side neighborhood. The section 8 tide is nearby, but seems to have crested.

    Marge Schott was German Catholic and from Cincinnati.

    • Replies: @Zach
    As is Roger Staubach.
  64. @Anonymous
    The reason Oktoberfest isn't more broadly celebrated is that it is specific to Bavaria and it wasn't started until the early 18oo's (so wasn't widely spread, even among Bavarians, until later)

    It’s big in Blumenau, in the southern state of Santa Catarina, in Brazil: http://www.oktoberfestblumenau.com.br/

  65. @Neil Templeton
    "When the Germans came they found some of the best land, even though they were beaten to it by two decades."

    I think what is more likely is that rather than breaking virgin soil that had been overlooked by the Scots-Irish, the Germans purchased the land at an attractive price from tenants who had been practicing extensive farming and herding, and made it produce more than previous. The Scots-Irish were very effective pioneers, but never known for efficient, intensive, agriculture. And where in America were the Germans the first to settle the land and hold the natives at bay?

    Maybe a natural progression is at work: Native peoples - primarily hunter gatherers / Scots-Irish - primitive farmers and herders / Germans - efficient agronomists / Higher order Scots, Anglos, and Germans - commerce, industry, and finance / Mediterranean Commercial Peoples - more efficient commerce and finance.

    The pacifist Quakers of Pennsylvania recruited Scots-Irish to settle the frontier and do what needed to be done.

    • Replies: @iffen
    Then it got out of hand. Some perceptive Quakers must have realized that at some point it would not end well for them (the Quakers) and it for sure was going to be catastrophic for the Indians. Kind of reminds me of the present day migrations.
  66. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Jefferson
    Why is St. Patrick's Day more widely celebrated in the U.S than Oktoberfest? When German Americans outnumber Irish Americans.

    In the 21st Century does German culture and traditions still get a bad rep in the U.S because of World War 2? Just because you celebrate Oktoberfest, it does not automatically mean you worship Adolf Hitler.

    Aren’t the Irish more popular than the Germans? The general stereotype is that the Irish are very friendly, warm, and fun, whereas the Germans are more cold and less likable. Not saying that this is true, just that it seems to be the popular perception, and may be why St. Patrick’s Day is more popular and why it’s adopted by so many people.

    • Replies: @Clyde

    Aren’t the Irish more popular than the Germans? The general stereotype is that the Irish are very friendly, warm, and fun, whereas the Germans are more cold and less likable. Not saying that this is true, just that it seems to be the popular perception, and may be why St. Patrick’s Day is more popular and why it’s adopted by so many people.
     
    Are the Irish the most vibrant people in Northern Europe? The Mexicans have them beat. Americans love Mexicans and the grande Cinco de Mayo tradition they brought here. Corona sales beat out green beer sales every year.
    , @Buffalo Joe
    The Germans are party people...."Fire up the Panzers and off to Poland for a picnic!"
  67. @OsRazor
    Of course, being German makes all the difference in the world.

    We forget:

    1. Germany wasn't a unified state until 1871. Compare that to centuries old unifications of France and England. This disarray and fragmentation exposed Germans to numerous invasions, conquests, and civil wars, all sorts of awful and brutality for centuries.

    2. Just a little more than 40 years later, this unified Germany very nearly destroyed an alliance of the greatest naval power and numerically much larger land armies. People don't appreciate how close Germany came to winning on the Western front in the Spring and Summer of 1918.

    3. Greatly reduced and occupied, economically crippled and enduring and thwarting a serious communist revolution and depression, this unified Germany in 1939-43 once again (with much fewer resources) very nearly destroyed an alliance this time even more imposing and powerful than in 1914.

    4. Territorially reduced by a quarter, absolutely ravished and torn, occupied, humiliated and divided in two, West Germany becomes the economic powerhouse in Europe in the latter half of the 20th Century despite having to pay massive war reparations, providing for the economic and social welfare of much of the citizenry of Israel AND having to stand at the front lines of the Soviet threat.

    5. West Germany unified with East Germany and absorbed nearly 20 million people with less than half of its own per capita resources, economy and wealth and yet was still able to lead in the creation of the Euro, EU, etc by the turn of the century.

    I cannot think of any people who could have accomplished all this (good or bad, moral or evil) after suffering catastrophe upon catastrophe. France and the UK never recovered (really) after the butchery and trauma of WWI. Russia's never recovered from the debacle of WWI and Communism. One could argue that the US showed really well in recovering from the Civil War, but it had land and resources on its side (and millions of German and other Northern European immigrants to help).

    I don't think any other people is better able to organize itself for productive purposes.

    “4. Territorially reduced by a quarter, absolutely ravished and torn, occupied, humiliated and divided in two, West Germany becomes the economic powerhouse in Europe in the latter half of the 20th Century despite having to pay massive war reparations, providing for the economic and social welfare of much of the citizenry of Israel AND having to stand at the front lines of the Soviet threat.”

    West Germany’s post-war economic boom was indeed impressive, but its reparations to Israel totaled about $1.5 billion over 14 years. And Germany received a similar amount from the US in Marshall Plan grants. As for standing on the front lines of the Soviet threat, sure, but much of the heavy lifting there was done by US and British troops stationed in Germany.

    West Germany was definitely the big winner of the post-WWII peace. In contrast, Britain, which was on the winning side of the war, didn’t fare so well economically post-WWII until it struck oil in the North Sea.

    • Replies: @OsRazor

    West Germany’s post-war economic boom was indeed impressive, but its reparations to Israel totaled about $1.5 billion over 14 years. And Germany received a similar amount from the US in Marshall Plan grants.
     
    Since 1951, (West) Germany's paid $70 billion in reparations (at modern exchange rates) for victims, well over 50% of which went to Israel, and billions more paid by private German firms. I'm sure we could get the precise numbers somewhere--I just don't have time. I'll just give some extended quotes from Nahum Goldmann, a co-signer of the Luxembourg Agreement of 1952:

    There hardly was a precedent for persuading a state to assume moral responsibility and make large-scale compensation for crimes committed against an unorganized ethnic group lacking sovereign status. There was no basis in international law for the collective Jewish claims. ...
     

    What the Luxembourg Agreement meant to Israel is for the historians of the young state to determine. That the goods Israel received from Germany were a decisive economic factor in its development is beyond doubt. I do not know what economic dangers might have threatened Israel at critical moments if it had not been for German supplies. Railways and telephones, dock installations and irrigation plants, whole areas of industry and agriculture, would not be where they are today without the reparations from Germany. And hundreds of thousands of Jewish victims of Nazism have received considerable sums under the law of restitution. ...

     


    Without the German reparations, the State of Israel would not have the half of its present infrastructure: every train in Israel is German, the ships are German, as well as the electricity, a large part of the industry ... without mentioning the individual pensions paid to the survivors ... In certain years, the amount of money received by Israel from Germany exceeds the total amount of money collected from international Jewry-two or three times as much. ...
     
    It is estimated tthat during the 50's and early 60's about one-third of investment goods imported into Israel came from West Germany. Why do people get into such a stink when West Germany's pivotal role in establishing Israel is discussed?
  68. Octoberfest: Party with introvert math/science types.

    St. Patricks: Party with extrovert gift of gab types.

  69. @jtgw
    BLS seems confused as to whether it's cultural or genetic, but those are quite different, as well as both being based on the unquestioned premise that the special behavior of Dubois County cannot be explained by economic or sociological factors.

    Basically, amateur social science is fun speculation but scientifically worthless.

    As opposed to professional social science, such as Harvard Professor Chetty’s bulletproof speculations.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    Exactly.

    You know what amateur social science is?

    The cure to the rivers of bullshit flowing from the Modern academy.

    aka "noticing"

    , @Clyde
    More popularly known as Professor Chetty Chetty Bang Bang, the inventor of flubber.
  70. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @jjbees
    Steve, heads up here- in western massachusetts there is a rural area called the "Hilltowns" which was settled by the Scotch-Irish about 200 years ago. The people living there are the leftovers from that time.

    Now there are mennonities and other german types in the hill towns, and there is a stark contrast between the scotch-irish natives, who tend to be dumb and drunk and lazy like their cousins in the south, and the german types who are clean cut and industrious. They are opening up furniture and baked goods and organic farm stores like they are on fire...the scotch-irish are being outcompeted like crazy.

    All of these mennonites seem intelligent when you talk to them (unlike the natives) and have like 10 kids.

    The Hilltowns is an interesting area that doesn't receive much press...it's almost a land out of time. The towns include Blandford, Chester, Huntington, Russell, Middlefield, Montgomery, Worthington, Otis, and a few others I can't remember.

    The Mennonites are interesting. They’re like the Amish, but they use modern technology and methods, and are very organized and do communal labor, rather than just family labor like the Amish. They also have an interesting policy where once a community becomes a certain size, they hold a lottery and people are selected to leave and set up a colony elsewhere.

    • Replies: @Jim
    I've never seen an Amish person smile or laugh. They always seem to have a very grim visage and they walk right past you without a glance as if you didn't exist. The Mennonites though always seem to talking and laughing among themselves. Of course they also dress in a colorful way while the Amish are always dressed in plain black.
    , @karlub
    To the point about the Mennonites being interesting, and their habits in comparison to the Amish...

    Seems to me there's a lot of variation among Mennonite communities. The Mennonites with whom I interact in Southeastern PA do not personally use a lot of technology. They are more Amish in their habits. They will, though, happily hire someone else to effectively midwife technology for them: Drive them to a farmer's market, deal with a website, take a phone call, etc. The Amish, here, frequently do the same thing.

    That said, there are quite a few Mennonite Churches near me, and we are not awash in buggies. So I have to assume there are also a fair amount that are indistinguishable from the surrounding population. But I don't know any of them.
  71. @OsRazor
    Of course, being German makes all the difference in the world.

    We forget:

    1. Germany wasn't a unified state until 1871. Compare that to centuries old unifications of France and England. This disarray and fragmentation exposed Germans to numerous invasions, conquests, and civil wars, all sorts of awful and brutality for centuries.

    2. Just a little more than 40 years later, this unified Germany very nearly destroyed an alliance of the greatest naval power and numerically much larger land armies. People don't appreciate how close Germany came to winning on the Western front in the Spring and Summer of 1918.

    3. Greatly reduced and occupied, economically crippled and enduring and thwarting a serious communist revolution and depression, this unified Germany in 1939-43 once again (with much fewer resources) very nearly destroyed an alliance this time even more imposing and powerful than in 1914.

    4. Territorially reduced by a quarter, absolutely ravished and torn, occupied, humiliated and divided in two, West Germany becomes the economic powerhouse in Europe in the latter half of the 20th Century despite having to pay massive war reparations, providing for the economic and social welfare of much of the citizenry of Israel AND having to stand at the front lines of the Soviet threat.

    5. West Germany unified with East Germany and absorbed nearly 20 million people with less than half of its own per capita resources, economy and wealth and yet was still able to lead in the creation of the Euro, EU, etc by the turn of the century.

    I cannot think of any people who could have accomplished all this (good or bad, moral or evil) after suffering catastrophe upon catastrophe. France and the UK never recovered (really) after the butchery and trauma of WWI. Russia's never recovered from the debacle of WWI and Communism. One could argue that the US showed really well in recovering from the Civil War, but it had land and resources on its side (and millions of German and other Northern European immigrants to help).

    I don't think any other people is better able to organize itself for productive purposes.

    Germany wasn’t a unified state until 1871. Compare that to centuries old unifications of France and England.

    France – not really. Administratively, legally and linguistically, it wasn’t fully unified until the 19th century. Despite the absolute monarchy under the Bourbons, it was nonetheless a convoluted hodgepodge of laws varying by region. It made taxation, among other things, a nightmare.

    At the time of the Revolution, people spoke eight or nine mutually unintelligible dialects of French, with only half the population being able to speak any of the “standard” form of the language. Even by 1871, only a quarter of the population spoke standard French as their native tongue. According to the linguist Henriette Walter, it was the mass mobilisation for the First World War that finally gave standard French its status as the de facto national language.

    • Replies: @Jim
    You're quite right about the extremely disjointed nature of France prior to the nineteenth century.
  72. An Italian from New Jersey once gave a rather caustic but intelligent answer to a question about why Appalachia was so much poorer ( and had a lower percentage of attractive females) than the Piedmont and Coastal areas of the Anglo Saxon mid Atlantic.

    His theory was very abbreviated. That as colonists came across the Atlantic some were told to “Keep on walking” when they came ashore, i.e. that ‘dorks’ have always existed and have always been excluded by the more robust and popular people. That colonial towns and the richest farm lands were not for them and that ‘dork-like’ people were driven out of more successful areas.

    • Replies: @Another Canadian
    Wow, even black people know more about American colonial history than that.
  73. @OsRazor
    Of course, being German makes all the difference in the world.

    We forget:

    1. Germany wasn't a unified state until 1871. Compare that to centuries old unifications of France and England. This disarray and fragmentation exposed Germans to numerous invasions, conquests, and civil wars, all sorts of awful and brutality for centuries.

    2. Just a little more than 40 years later, this unified Germany very nearly destroyed an alliance of the greatest naval power and numerically much larger land armies. People don't appreciate how close Germany came to winning on the Western front in the Spring and Summer of 1918.

    3. Greatly reduced and occupied, economically crippled and enduring and thwarting a serious communist revolution and depression, this unified Germany in 1939-43 once again (with much fewer resources) very nearly destroyed an alliance this time even more imposing and powerful than in 1914.

    4. Territorially reduced by a quarter, absolutely ravished and torn, occupied, humiliated and divided in two, West Germany becomes the economic powerhouse in Europe in the latter half of the 20th Century despite having to pay massive war reparations, providing for the economic and social welfare of much of the citizenry of Israel AND having to stand at the front lines of the Soviet threat.

    5. West Germany unified with East Germany and absorbed nearly 20 million people with less than half of its own per capita resources, economy and wealth and yet was still able to lead in the creation of the Euro, EU, etc by the turn of the century.

    I cannot think of any people who could have accomplished all this (good or bad, moral or evil) after suffering catastrophe upon catastrophe. France and the UK never recovered (really) after the butchery and trauma of WWI. Russia's never recovered from the debacle of WWI and Communism. One could argue that the US showed really well in recovering from the Civil War, but it had land and resources on its side (and millions of German and other Northern European immigrants to help).

    I don't think any other people is better able to organize itself for productive purposes.

    South Korea comes to mind……..

    • Replies: @OsRazor
    I wonder how well and how long it would take S. Korea to absorb N. Korea . . .
  74. @PV van der Byl
    No major disagreement but it should be mentioned that the Irish population has long been less than 1/10 of either Germany or the UK.

    Re the Italians: How many of the 20 prize winners came from south of Rome?

    I am guessing none of the Italians will be from below Rome.

    And the Irish nobel winners will be mainly anglo transplants.

    • Replies: @hbd chick
    "And the Irish nobel winners will be mainly anglo transplants."

    yes, i think that's probably correct (altho i don't know for sure). see halfway down this post of mine: what's in a name?

    (^_^)
    , @Anonymous
    Renato Dulbecco's mother was southern Italian from Calabria. His father was northern Italian from Liguria.
  75. @Steve Sailer
    As opposed to professional social science, such as Harvard Professor Chetty's bulletproof speculations.

    Exactly.

    You know what amateur social science is?

    The cure to the rivers of bullshit flowing from the Modern academy.

    aka “noticing”

  76. @syonredux

    Why is St. Patrick’s Day more widely celebrated in the U.S than Oktoberfest? When German Americans outnumber Irish Americans.

    In the 21st Century does German culture and traditions still get a bad rep in the U.S because of World War 2? Just because you celebrate Oktoberfest, it does not automatically mean you worship Adolf Hitler.
     
    WWI was more decisive in that regard.During the Great War, the WASP elite waged a veritable Kulturkampf against German culture in America.Of course, they had good reasons for doing so.Some of the German-American intelligentsia were frankly anti-Anglo and pro-German. H.L. Mencken and Theodore Dreiser, for example, exchanged letters where they talked about their desire to see Germany smash England and dominate Europe.Indeed, Mencken was an arch-Anglophobe.He frequently wrote about how the Anglo-Saxons (both in America and in Britain) were racially inferior, and that it was a good thing that the Anglos were being racially swamped in the New World.

    Kulturkampf against German culture in America
    You are absolutely correct. When in High School I wanted to take German, but it was not offered. Spanish, French and Latin were. Investigating I discovered German had been offered until 1917! It was offered again 1n 1965 and I graduated in 1964.

  77. @Anonymous
    Aren't the Irish more popular than the Germans? The general stereotype is that the Irish are very friendly, warm, and fun, whereas the Germans are more cold and less likable. Not saying that this is true, just that it seems to be the popular perception, and may be why St. Patrick's Day is more popular and why it's adopted by so many people.

    Aren’t the Irish more popular than the Germans? The general stereotype is that the Irish are very friendly, warm, and fun, whereas the Germans are more cold and less likable. Not saying that this is true, just that it seems to be the popular perception, and may be why St. Patrick’s Day is more popular and why it’s adopted by so many people.

    Are the Irish the most vibrant people in Northern Europe? The Mexicans have them beat. Americans love Mexicans and the grande Cinco de Mayo tradition they brought here. Corona sales beat out green beer sales every year.

  78. @Steve Sailer
    As opposed to professional social science, such as Harvard Professor Chetty's bulletproof speculations.

    More popularly known as Professor Chetty Chetty Bang Bang, the inventor of flubber.

  79. @jjbees
    I am guessing none of the Italians will be from below Rome.

    And the Irish nobel winners will be mainly anglo transplants.

    “And the Irish nobel winners will be mainly anglo transplants.”

    yes, i think that’s probably correct (altho i don’t know for sure). see halfway down this post of mine: what’s in a name?

    (^_^)

    • Replies: @BubbaJoe
    In fairness, Sean MacBride was an impressive man. Still only half-green though. There have been a few American/Australian nobel winners of green Irish extraction; Peter Doherty (AUS), John O'Keefe, Joseph Murray (half Italian). You mention Callan in your linked post- a rare sighting in Physics. There were a few lights in Chemistry and, again, medicine from Ireland that did well on the continent in the past. But, on the whole, it doesn't so look so impressive.
    , @LondonBob
    The only science winner, Ernest Walton, was Anglo.
  80. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    And the irony of course, that before the Civil War, it could well be said that the South had produced more significant citizens of note; after all, the South was the wealthiest region in the US prior to the Civil War and for obvious reasons.

    Seems as though the legacy of the War has meant that Dixie just hasn't been able to catch up to the North. Wonder if it ever shall?

    legacy of the War

    Do you mean the punishingly high tariffs passed by Congress the minute the southerners left Washington in 1861 and maintained except 1913-1919 until the Smoot-Hawley tariff of 1930? These tariffs, often as high as 48%, bled money from the South to the North(or maybe the Northern Industrialists). For every 10,000 shacks in the South a new mansion in Newport .

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    Do you mean the punishingly high tariffs passed by Congress the minute the southerners left Washington in 1861…
     
    A free trader! A globalist! Here, of all places.

    You got something against buying American, buddy? I'm gonna sic Pat upon you.

    Oh, and those tariffs went to Washington, not Newport. And, as any economic nationalist will tell you, they were completely voluntary, if you can buy it here or make it yourself.

  81. anon • Disclaimer says:

    So, here are the observations I noticed over the years. The earliest Scotch-Irish and British (Anglo) settlers had a run of finding land and starting farms in the hill country. Of course that land to this day isn’t much for farming but better for livestock and remains relatively economically challenged. When the Germans came they found some of the best land, even though they were beaten to it by two decades. In those areas the farming is best, the communities successful, the people well off.

    Whoa, a little thick with presumptuous arrogance. Those dumb unenterprising Scotch-Irish were allergic to making a buck, doncha know! They couldn’t help themselves!

    A little prairie history…

    In the old days (say pre-1830), there was unanimous belief that the soils of broadleaf forests were superior to that of prairie lands because the prairies couldn’t even grow trees. This belief persisted for a long time because the prairies were actively avoided. The land was untillable due to thick intractable prairie sod. The Breaking of the Prairie was a labor intensive process–an arduous, slow, and expensive ordeal– and settlers could simply move West rather than attempting to cultivate the “marginal” land. Breaking the sod cost more per acre than the land itself.

    After some time, it was discovered that prairie land was indeed fertile. However, there was an additional problem. After the initial breaking, it was found that the prairie soil would stick to the plow to such an extent that the land could not effectively be cultivated. Around 1840, a Vermont born blacksmith, John Deere, invented a steel plow that effectively scoured (shed) the sticky soil. This, of course, was a revolutionary development.

    So I would hazard a guess that the German immigrants arrived poor, and settled the cheapest, most marginal land of the time. Fortuitously for them, this was right before a technological advancement that led to them being, in fact, settled on prime farmland. I’ll grant that they had character and state of mind to not screw it up.

    Meanwhile, the forest lands offered reasonable productivity/fertility after initial clearing, but soon declined. Thus, the enterprising sons of the British-descended peoples on the now-poor lands struck out on their own, moving to other parts of the country. A boiling off of the industrious and prosperous stock, if you will.

    • Replies: @Andrew
    anon:

    After some time, it was discovered that prairie land was indeed fertile. However, there was an additional problem. After the initial breaking, it was found that the prairie soil would stick to the plow to such an extent that the land could not effectively be cultivated.

    So it doesn't have anything to do with the Germans being busy recolonizing the grasslands of the Danube basin, draining the Oderbruch, settling grassy Bessarabia, Kherson, and Crimea, and the prarie of Volga, and gaining the experience needed to work the American prarie along with the crops that would grow on it?
  82. @syonredux

    On a man to man basis, the Germans and the Anglos (genetically distant by 1500 years only) are the most significant human beings of the last 200 years of Modernity. And we demonize success.

     

    Actually, recent studies show that the Germanic invasion of Britain was not quite as demographically overwhelming as some have thought:

    One thousand and five hundred years ago innumerable Germans, Saxons, Angles and Jutes, came to the shores of Britain, and transformed it into England. One thousand and five hundred years ago the trunk of the English language was grafted upon a fundamentally British ethnic root. Post-Roman Britain was subject to a massive migration of Germans in the 6th century, and, the majority of the ancestry of the people of the British Isles derives from the period before the Anglo-Saxon migrations.
     
    Leaving that to one side, here are some interesting figures regarding the inter-relationship between demography and accomplishment:



    Nobel Prize WINNERS:

    Latin America: 15

    Anglo-America (USA plus Canada): 376

    So, Latin America is flatland.And Anglo-America is the Alps.

    Now, let’s look at the sources of American accomplishment:

    As reported in the 2010 census, the major Euro ethnic groups in the USA are:Germans, Irish, English, and Italians.How many Nobel Prize winners have these ethnic groups produced in their places of origin?

    Germany: 102

    Ireland: 10

    England/UK: 115

    Italy:20

    Clearly, the Anglos and the Germans having been doing a lot of heavy lifting.Also, it's pretty clear that having 100 million Hispanic Mestizos and Amerinds in the USA by 2060 is bad news for America.

    “Irish” Nobels: 5 for “peace”, 4 Anglos plus Seamus Heaney.

    Not really any heavy lifting from us Irish I’m afraid. But I think that supports the argument doesn’t it?

    • Replies: @rod1963
    Yep, someone has to fill up the left side of the bell curve while the mighty apex whites - WASPS and Germans occupy the right. Still what good is being on the right side when they are collectively too stupid and weak to have kids and stand up for themselves. In Germany they are slitting their throats for Muslims and Africans. Same with the uber whites of England.

    Looks to me brains isn't synonymous with common sense and guts. More like human lemmings to me.

    Here in the U.S., the white intellectual elite that so many consider critical to the future is busy bending over America with trade and immigration policies that are wiping the country out. Makes me wonder if these high IQ's come with a large degree of sociopathy.

    , @slumber_j
    Seamus Heaney was at least that extraordinarily rare Nobelist for Literature who actually deserved the prize.
  83. @Christian
    "Irish" Nobels: 5 for "peace", 4 Anglos plus Seamus Heaney.

    Not really any heavy lifting from us Irish I'm afraid. But I think that supports the argument doesn't it?

    Yep, someone has to fill up the left side of the bell curve while the mighty apex whites – WASPS and Germans occupy the right. Still what good is being on the right side when they are collectively too stupid and weak to have kids and stand up for themselves. In Germany they are slitting their throats for Muslims and Africans. Same with the uber whites of England.

    Looks to me brains isn’t synonymous with common sense and guts. More like human lemmings to me.

    Here in the U.S., the white intellectual elite that so many consider critical to the future is busy bending over America with trade and immigration policies that are wiping the country out. Makes me wonder if these high IQ’s come with a large degree of sociopathy.

  84. M says:

    On Geert Hofstede’s cultural dimensions, the UK is a little more individualistic and practices a little less uncertainty avoidance than the Germans.

    Both are on the low end of cultural masculinity, power distance and long term orientation – fitting with various kinds of egalitarianism (e.g. early democracy in Britain and upper classes who speak mockney and call themselves the gaffer and the guvnor), a lack of macho stuff whether Dad (as Japan’s salaryman samurai) or Cad (as Jamaica) variants and being practical “right now” oriented people as opposed to worrying about the future like a Chinese.

    But the Germans are a little more in need of rules to live by and willing to give a little more up to the group, so won’t choose to thrive in or build unpredictable or informal environments where you rely on your own intuition and judgement, as often.

    • Replies: @fnn
    "practical “right now” oriented people"

    Google "land of poets and thinkers."
  85. @OsRazor
    Of course, being German makes all the difference in the world.

    We forget:

    1. Germany wasn't a unified state until 1871. Compare that to centuries old unifications of France and England. This disarray and fragmentation exposed Germans to numerous invasions, conquests, and civil wars, all sorts of awful and brutality for centuries.

    2. Just a little more than 40 years later, this unified Germany very nearly destroyed an alliance of the greatest naval power and numerically much larger land armies. People don't appreciate how close Germany came to winning on the Western front in the Spring and Summer of 1918.

    3. Greatly reduced and occupied, economically crippled and enduring and thwarting a serious communist revolution and depression, this unified Germany in 1939-43 once again (with much fewer resources) very nearly destroyed an alliance this time even more imposing and powerful than in 1914.

    4. Territorially reduced by a quarter, absolutely ravished and torn, occupied, humiliated and divided in two, West Germany becomes the economic powerhouse in Europe in the latter half of the 20th Century despite having to pay massive war reparations, providing for the economic and social welfare of much of the citizenry of Israel AND having to stand at the front lines of the Soviet threat.

    5. West Germany unified with East Germany and absorbed nearly 20 million people with less than half of its own per capita resources, economy and wealth and yet was still able to lead in the creation of the Euro, EU, etc by the turn of the century.

    I cannot think of any people who could have accomplished all this (good or bad, moral or evil) after suffering catastrophe upon catastrophe. France and the UK never recovered (really) after the butchery and trauma of WWI. Russia's never recovered from the debacle of WWI and Communism. One could argue that the US showed really well in recovering from the Civil War, but it had land and resources on its side (and millions of German and other Northern European immigrants to help).

    I don't think any other people is better able to organize itself for productive purposes.

    Germany in Spring 1918 offensives took land it could not hold at terrible cost as the British Army fought radically different. Defense in depth, counter battery, air strafing attacks at the rear to harass reinforcements. Both the Kaisers sons serving on the front argued in May to retreat across the Rhine. Particularly as the Balkan front collapsed.

    The professional British Army being terribly small was esentially wiped out in the Sept. holding actions in Belgium 1914 that slowed Moltke down. It took until late 1917 to rebuild it. By that time it was obvious to mist German officers at the front no victory was possible. Manpower attrition, supply, and a more astute enemy being the problem.

    • Replies: @5371
    An interracial cuckold fetish evidently does not confer expertise in military history. The human cost of offensives was lower in 1918, not greater. Withdrawal of the BEF was seriously considered in early June. Only the Americans and the flu saved it.
  86. Were the Irish less intelligent than other European settlers? It pains me as a native to say this but in all likelihood we/they were. The Germans were of good Jewish / Saxon stock. The English and Scots were upper class / nobility. (founding fathers were all WASPS iirc) The Irish came from small, leased (from those WASPY landlords) plots of land which were adequate (barring any major agricultural disaster that is) for subsistence living. Most were happy to be alive let alone receive an education.

    They were in many respects in the same boat (sometimes literally) as the blacks. I’ve heard the argument the Irish had it worse, but that’s for another time.

    • Replies: @Cagey Beast
    I'm so glad I wasn't born an Irish-American; those WASPs really seem to mess with the collective Irish-American mind. Why did Irish-Canadians, Irish-Australians and Irish Argentines thrive and feel confident while Irish-Americans seem to be the biggest collection of self-haters the internet has ever seen? Take it from an Irish-Canadian: there's something deeply wrong with you people.

    I guess a person who knows he has Irish DNA can't embrace 19th century Anglospherical racial theories and keep both his dignity and sanity. Something has to give.

    , @Lurker

    The Germans were of good Jewish / Saxon stock.
     
    A miniscule percentage were jewish.
  87. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Steve, you’ve been cited in Australia’s most prestigious conservative magazine:
    “Cultural factors will also determine whether or not a country will work at all in the first place. The cultural critic Steve Sailer was able to predict in 2003 that the invasion of Iraq would not work due to cousin marriage. ”

    https://quadrant.org.au/opinion/qed/2015/05/hard-wired-indolence-industry/

  88. @Anonymous
    St Patrick's revelers are URBAN and their PARADES get media attention.

    Octoberfesters not so much.

    Also the Irish have slightly better folk music and a sense of humor that translates better to the outgroup.

    The Kraut is more refined in all matters than the Patty. But we're talking holidays.

    Both have quality brewing.

    Both tribes have beautiful women but the edge goes to the even-tempered, blonde, bodacious St Paulie girl.

    Mostly it comes down to what exactly creates outgroup affinity for an ingroup's holiday. More peeps wanna party with the Irish.

    But it may all come down to promotion and the Octoberfest promotion skews higher IQ with less insanity.

    Mardi Gras and St Patty's both probably far out poll Octoberfest for best drinking holiday...

    Please lad, it’s Paddy, not “Patty”.

    “Both have quality brewing”- no they don’t. Guinness is a Protestant beer, as is nearly every major alcoholic beverage of Irish origin (Beamish, Murphy’s, Jameson, Smithwick’s (Smith-icks), Bushmills, Harp, Jameson. And while we’re at it as is early every major industry as well as the banks.) In this regard, the Irish are like the South- they love to drink, but aren’t very good at making good drink. Or, rather, are happy to drink and not bother making that which they drink. Regardless, compared to the wide variety of beers you’ll find on the continent (Germanic, Belgic, etc.), Irish beers don’t hold up too well.

    Again though, please avoid the “Patty”.

    • Replies: @slumber_j

    In this regard, the Irish are like the South- they love to drink, but aren’t very good at making good drink. Or, rather, are happy to drink and not bother making that which they drink.
     
    Try telling that to any resident of Bourbon Co., Kentucky... But be sure to bring a helmet.

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/dec/9/english-born-whiskey-critic-says-scotch-out-americ/
  89. @Enrique Cardova
    BLS says:

    So, here are the observations I noticed over the years. The earliest Scotch-Irish and British (Anglo) settlers had a run of finding land and starting farms in the hill country. Of course that land to this day isn’t much for farming but better for livestock and remains relatively economically challenged. When the Germans came they found some of the best land, even though they were beaten to it by two decades.

    Not necessarily. The actual case may be the opposite. As scholar Thomas Sowell shows (1981, 1983) the Germans actually came along after the Scotch-Irish had the pick of the BEST land. The Germans typically took over less than prime land and worked harder and more thoroughly- laboriously pulling up stumps for example, left behind by the Scotch Irish, and building more barns for livestock rather leave them to the elements- more so than the Scotch-Irish who were sloppier farmers. Germans did not find the best land. They put in greater effort on "second string" land and made it more productive.

    And curiously, the Germans in the US, tended to be more tolerant people- not flaming liberals of their era- far from it- but generally willing to live and let live other people in peace, unlike the white Irish who were always picking fights among themselves and with others. And though German individuals and communities had some diversity of opinion, German Americans overall, on average, were more supportive of the abolition of slavery than the Irish.

    .
    Essentially what I noticed and what is a long murmured joke is that Germans were successful wherever they went and made the area more successful based on the percentage of German majority. Anglo areas struggled and continue to, and both groups are just miles apart.

    Fair enough but then how does genetics explain this? Both groups are white Europeans related closely genetically.

    .
    My hypothesis has been that Germanness matters.
    Sure, a fair minded observer would say you have a point. They can be contrasted against the Scotch-Irish, originating in the more volatile, more violent and disruptive England-Scot-Wales border lands were a large proportion of settlers in the American South, and transplanted that disreputable, lower-end "redneck" culture there and elsewhere, with dire results at certain times and places. They can also be contrasted also against the equally if not more violent and poverty-culture Catholic white Irish. (Sowell 2005- Black Rednecks, White Liberals).

    .
    Ultimately, I suggest that rural development and economic development dollars spent are many times wasted simply because of the ethnic background of the people.. All over Indiana places where German ancestry is a higher percentage of the population the better the money is spent.

    Maybe true in part if as to a specific farming project, but keep in mind that rural and economic development assistance dollars ALSO benefited Germans as well. Rural electrification for example, a great boon, benefited German farmers as well as non German. Econ development dollars are often dollars spent on public goods benefiting large areas, and economies of scale become a necessity. A road running from Germantown into Irish town benefits both areas, and it would be inefficient to stop the road after 6 miles because you were on the outskirts of Germantown.

    Likewise electrification- sometimes it can only pay for itself by scale, millions of subscribers over a large area sharing the costs. Rerouting all power lines around the Italian part of town for example fails to take advantage of economies of scale. With something like electricity even the poor will pay the price for it, using a larger portion of their income- but they will pay the price. In fact dense urban areas where there are more people per square mile, even if poorer, can yield more profits that mo betta, more sparsely settled Germanic areas. A hard-nosed utility manager doing the math may well be seeing more profits where there were LESS Germans, compared to say more densely packed in Irish, for a given area. In such a case those idyllic German neighborhoods may not be so hot after all.


    .
    Dubois continues success with very few move ins but with people cultivated from long family ties. Kids go to college but many come back unlike other dying rural areas where the smart kids move to Indianapolis or out of state.

    Dubois sounds like a nice place and all, but doesn't seen particularly profitable. Packed tenements filled with poor Jews, or Poles in NYC might actually not only be more profitable per square foot or square mile of area, but would eventually post higher incomes and education levels than bucolic Dubois. Nice blond haired kids might be moving back in and all, and that makes for a nice, slower paced suburban/rural "Leave It To Beaver" feel and such, but you notice the place ain't pace-setting Silicon Valley by any means, or bustling, hustling New York where a lot more money is to be made, and a lot more diverse cultural amenities and selections are at hand.

    There is also another side to "Germanness" that you don't mention- which some German writers themselves have criticized. The much commented upon "Teutonic character" with its supposed conformity, robotism, and penchant for the systematic cruelty. Unfair some say. But why should Germans get a pure halo and be exempt from scrutiny when other people are so casually stereotyped? If other groups are to be stereotyped for their supposed "proclivities" then the Germans too, as northern European "role models", must take their place in the dock for their "proclivities" . Christopher Browning's detailed study "Ordinary Men" shows the conformist side and the banal cruelty of the "Teuton" as ordinary cooks, bakers and accountants in the SS police battalions, killed tens of thousands willingly, even zealously, even when they could opt out without penalty. Some even invited their wives and girlfriends to witness the good cleansing work.

    Some might argue that the rebellious, flashy, wild, fiercely independent "Irish model" that settled the south (Scotch-Irish version), and the northern cities (Catholic version) is preferable to conformist, "European Teuton" Germanic types. The identification of the Scotch-Irish with the rugged frontiersman has struck a chord in popular white culture over and above the "Teuton." Re "German character" see Delbruck et al below...

    http://onlinebooks.library.upenn.edu/webbin/book/browse?type=lcsubc&key=National%20characteristics%2C%20German&c=x

    I’m not sure it’s this video, but Jordan Peterson talks about personality traits – conscientiousness, orderliness, and disgust. And uses Nazism as an example of too-high orderliness:

    (If not that one, probably this one:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qH9-xsuPiUk&index=16&list=PL22J3VaeABQCfQy9Yg2y8fi5cI8HYUUct)

    Also orderliness vs openness to experience, useful when speculating about national character.

    • Replies: @Enrique Cardova
    Interesting video links, and no doubt the Germans deserve credit for some good things. The link too also show a commonalities among all peoples that cut across stereotyped claims. And indeed the Germans would be a mixed bag- just like other people, though among many right wingers, other people aren't allowed much agency, complexity, or human commonality- they are a stereotyped enemy or alien "Other" to be despised. Something like this has emerged in today's neo-Nordicism, epitomized in those who make a fetish of the so-called "Hajnal line" where people like Italians, or Slavs, or even the more distant Celts, are lesser sub-species of humanity, compared to allegedly "mo betta stocks" within the confines of the "line." Using Charles Murray's labeling for the stereotyped "racial model": the "better people" would be a Germanic type "Belmont," and the rest like those duskier Italians- denizens of "Fishtown."

    Claims about the Germanic or "Teutonic character" have been floating round for a while. Ancient Roman writer Tacitus lauded some points, but also paints a picture of Germans as excessively lazy and violent, and unproductive:

    " When not engaged in warfare, they spend some little time in hunting, but more in idling, abandoned to sleep and gluttony. All the heroes and grim warriors dawdle their time away, while the care of house, hearth and fields is left to the women, old men and weaklings of the family. The warriors themselves lose their edge. They are so strangely inconsistent. They love indolence, but they hate peace.

    .. As soon as they rise from their sleep, which is often protracted well into the day, they wash in water that is usually warm; can one wonder, where winter holds such sway? After washing, they breakfast; each has his special place and his special table. Then they sally forth in arms to business or, as often as not, to banquets. Drinking bouts, lasting a day and night, are not considered in any way disgraceful. Such quarrels as inevitably arise over the cups are seldom settled by mere hard words, more often by blows and wounds.

    ..The practice of usury and compound interest is simply unknown. Ignorance here is a surer defence than any ban.. They change their plough-lands yearly, and still there is ground to spare. The fact is that their soil is fertile and plentiful, but they refuse to give it the labour it deserves. They plant no orchards, fence off no meadows, water no gardens; the only levy on the earth is the corn crop.

     

    ^Thomas Sowell in his books notes that Britons were oft described in similar terms by the Romans, and that over time, peoples change. Yesterday's violent, lazy slackers, are today's efficient, productive, submissive citizens, and the "barbarians" scoffed at by the Romans as "nauseating stink", humbled the "grandeur that was Rome. He dismisses simplistic "genetic" explanations, noting southern Europeans like Romans and northerners like Germans are very much related, and cites other things much more relevant- from conquest, to geography.

    Modern German writers take up the "Teutonic character" theme with its reputed need for orderliness, territoriality, conformism and so on a little more light-heartedly. Germans are "gnome lovers" says one book on today's modern Germans, from a German writer:

    "We - Everything One Should Know About Germans, by Antje Steinhäuser.

    "The book confirms a yearning for coziness, a petit-bourgeois attitude, a focus on reliability and a need for rules," Mrs Steinhäuser said in an interview. "And while there are some very funny people here, I wouldn't say humour is the prime characteristic of the Germans...

    They epitomise a narrow-minded, comfort-orientated and apolitical vein of the middle class. "There is no denying that we're a nation of gnome lovers. It is part of our mentality and this parochialism still exists," Mrs Steinhäuser said. "The garden gnome stands for coziness but also for a desire to segregate oneself and mark one's territory in this densely populated country. Psychologically, the gnome is like a little sentry.

    Schadenfreude, for example, succinctly conveys the pleasure one derives from the misfortune of others. "Many people say 'trust the nasty Germans to come up with that word'," Mrs Steinhäuser said."

    "Books published since 2006 include We Germans - Why Others Can Like Us and The Best About Germany - 250 Reasons to Love Our Country. "Germans feel increasingly free to think about what it means to be German without being seen as too nationalistic or too in love with themselves, and without other nations having to be alarmed," Mrs Steinhäuser said. "We have spent a lot of time coming to terms with the historical burden our ancestors left us."
    http://www.thenational.ae/news/world/europe/germanys-character-now-an-open-book
     
  90. @hbd chick
    "And the Irish nobel winners will be mainly anglo transplants."

    yes, i think that's probably correct (altho i don't know for sure). see halfway down this post of mine: what's in a name?

    (^_^)

    In fairness, Sean MacBride was an impressive man. Still only half-green though. There have been a few American/Australian nobel winners of green Irish extraction; Peter Doherty (AUS), John O’Keefe, Joseph Murray (half Italian). You mention Callan in your linked post- a rare sighting in Physics. There were a few lights in Chemistry and, again, medicine from Ireland that did well on the continent in the past. But, on the whole, it doesn’t so look so impressive.

    • Replies: @Desiderius

    There were a few lights in Chemistry and, again, medicine from Ireland that did well on the continent in the past. But, on the whole, it doesn’t so look so impressive.
     
    Those sorts of things are not what the Celt is ultimately for.

    The secular is the flowering of the sacred, but that is only one stage of the life-cycle.
    , @Anonymous
    The native Irish were much poorer and were tenant farmers. The main outlet for any sort of intellectual activity was a very conservative Catholic Church.
  91. @Jefferson
    Why is St. Patrick's Day more widely celebrated in the U.S than Oktoberfest? When German Americans outnumber Irish Americans.

    In the 21st Century does German culture and traditions still get a bad rep in the U.S because of World War 2? Just because you celebrate Oktoberfest, it does not automatically mean you worship Adolf Hitler.

    The Athenaeum building here in Indianapolis was known as Das Deutsche Haus until the outbreak of WWI for example. Anti-German sentiment was incredibly strong and many German Americans made a conscious effort to essentially become generic Americans if they hadn’t already. It was one of those remarkably significant sociological occurrences in U.S. history that have essentially been forgotten.

    • Replies: @FWIW
    My grandfather recounted how he and some group went to chat with German farmers and sell them War Bonds. He didn't say how much pressure was involved, but it was more than a little.

    Afterwards, he was pretty angry about the whole War Bond deal and thought it was pretty messed up. Everyone got nicked heavily by inflation.

    He also was of the opinion that Germany used up its chances in WWII and was quite in favor of pastoralization. Or just leveling the place and all buildings. Not that we didn't half do it already, but he wasn't too keen on Germany. He got along fine, really. His best friend was a Czech farmer. I think I recall him using the term, Bohunks or something like that. Like a generic eastern european.
    , @Dutch Boy
    In addition, several states in the early 20th century made the teaching of German in schools illegal. The Germans, being law-abiding, obeyed and the German language faded out in America.
  92. So what’s the best ethnic group to be surrounded by in the US, if you want a high-level of civilised life? Germans? My guess would be Dutch or Scandinavian. And the further west the better, since they are likely to be more go-getters.

    • Replies: @Dutch Boy
    Here, here! My Dutch and Norwegian grandparents would heartily agree.
    , @Tacitus2016
    "So what’s the best ethnic group to be surrounded by in the US, if you want a high-level of civilised life? Germans? My guess would be Dutch or Scandinavian."

    After spending a few years living around Scandinavians I must say the agreeableness can get to you. After returning here this year I am already missing a good argument.
  93. Maybe the scariest opening sentence to any story, by one of the most famous Indiana Germans:

    The year was 2081, and everybody was finally equal.

  94. Sean says:

    Scots Irish are said to have had an aversion to valleys, which they thought would be boggy as in Ireland, and often lost out on the best land because they tended to settled on hills. They also had the reputation for being restless and making several moves rather that settling in one place. Also immigrants (who happened to be Germans) benefitted from the way the frontier land was opened up and sometimes got granted extremely good land immediately on arrival, much to the annoyance of the established population. There were some range wars over that. But no doubt the Germans made better farmers. Ethnic Germans played a prominent role in Tsarist Russia, and Solzhenitsyn said in the communities of ex-Gulag inmates, Germans and their children were known for their industriousness, probity and female chasteness.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Low lands tended to have more fevers. Higher ground was healthier.
    , @Anonymous Nephew
    "in the communities of ex-Gulag inmates, Germans and their children were known for their industriousness, probity and female chasteness"

    Tacitus had the same impression 2,000 years ago.

    http://www.ourcivilisation.com/smartboard/shop/tacitusc/germany/chap1.htm

    "Thus it is that the German women live in a chastity that is impregnable, uncorrupted by the temptations of public shows or the excitements of banquets. Clandestine love-letters are unknown to men and women alike. Adultery in that populous nation is rare in the extreme, and punishment is summary and left to the husband. He shaves off his wife's hair, strips her in the presence of kinsmen, thrusts her from his house and flogs her through the whole village. They have, in fact, no mercy on a woman who prostitutes her chastity. Neither beauty, youth nor wealth can find the sinner a husband. No one in Germany finds vice amusing, or calls it `up-to-date' to debauch and be debauched. It is still better with those states in which only virgins marry, and the hopes and prayers of a wife are settled once and for all. They take one husband, like the one body or life that they possess. No thought or desire must stray beyond him. They must not love the husband so much as the married state."
  95. @Sean
    Scots Irish are said to have had an aversion to valleys, which they thought would be boggy as in Ireland, and often lost out on the best land because they tended to settled on hills. They also had the reputation for being restless and making several moves rather that settling in one place. Also immigrants (who happened to be Germans) benefitted from the way the frontier land was opened up and sometimes got granted extremely good land immediately on arrival, much to the annoyance of the established population. There were some range wars over that. But no doubt the Germans made better farmers. Ethnic Germans played a prominent role in Tsarist Russia, and Solzhenitsyn said in the communities of ex-Gulag inmates, Germans and their children were known for their industriousness, probity and female chasteness.

    Low lands tended to have more fevers. Higher ground was healthier.

  96. @Whiskey
    Germany in Spring 1918 offensives took land it could not hold at terrible cost as the British Army fought radically different. Defense in depth, counter battery, air strafing attacks at the rear to harass reinforcements. Both the Kaisers sons serving on the front argued in May to retreat across the Rhine. Particularly as the Balkan front collapsed.

    The professional British Army being terribly small was esentially wiped out in the Sept. holding actions in Belgium 1914 that slowed Moltke down. It took until late 1917 to rebuild it. By that time it was obvious to mist German officers at the front no victory was possible. Manpower attrition, supply, and a more astute enemy being the problem.

    An interracial cuckold fetish evidently does not confer expertise in military history. The human cost of offensives was lower in 1918, not greater. Withdrawal of the BEF was seriously considered in early June. Only the Americans and the flu saved it.

  97. @Enrique Cardova
    BLS says:

    So, here are the observations I noticed over the years. The earliest Scotch-Irish and British (Anglo) settlers had a run of finding land and starting farms in the hill country. Of course that land to this day isn’t much for farming but better for livestock and remains relatively economically challenged. When the Germans came they found some of the best land, even though they were beaten to it by two decades.

    Not necessarily. The actual case may be the opposite. As scholar Thomas Sowell shows (1981, 1983) the Germans actually came along after the Scotch-Irish had the pick of the BEST land. The Germans typically took over less than prime land and worked harder and more thoroughly- laboriously pulling up stumps for example, left behind by the Scotch Irish, and building more barns for livestock rather leave them to the elements- more so than the Scotch-Irish who were sloppier farmers. Germans did not find the best land. They put in greater effort on "second string" land and made it more productive.

    And curiously, the Germans in the US, tended to be more tolerant people- not flaming liberals of their era- far from it- but generally willing to live and let live other people in peace, unlike the white Irish who were always picking fights among themselves and with others. And though German individuals and communities had some diversity of opinion, German Americans overall, on average, were more supportive of the abolition of slavery than the Irish.

    .
    Essentially what I noticed and what is a long murmured joke is that Germans were successful wherever they went and made the area more successful based on the percentage of German majority. Anglo areas struggled and continue to, and both groups are just miles apart.

    Fair enough but then how does genetics explain this? Both groups are white Europeans related closely genetically.

    .
    My hypothesis has been that Germanness matters.
    Sure, a fair minded observer would say you have a point. They can be contrasted against the Scotch-Irish, originating in the more volatile, more violent and disruptive England-Scot-Wales border lands were a large proportion of settlers in the American South, and transplanted that disreputable, lower-end "redneck" culture there and elsewhere, with dire results at certain times and places. They can also be contrasted also against the equally if not more violent and poverty-culture Catholic white Irish. (Sowell 2005- Black Rednecks, White Liberals).

    .
    Ultimately, I suggest that rural development and economic development dollars spent are many times wasted simply because of the ethnic background of the people.. All over Indiana places where German ancestry is a higher percentage of the population the better the money is spent.

    Maybe true in part if as to a specific farming project, but keep in mind that rural and economic development assistance dollars ALSO benefited Germans as well. Rural electrification for example, a great boon, benefited German farmers as well as non German. Econ development dollars are often dollars spent on public goods benefiting large areas, and economies of scale become a necessity. A road running from Germantown into Irish town benefits both areas, and it would be inefficient to stop the road after 6 miles because you were on the outskirts of Germantown.

    Likewise electrification- sometimes it can only pay for itself by scale, millions of subscribers over a large area sharing the costs. Rerouting all power lines around the Italian part of town for example fails to take advantage of economies of scale. With something like electricity even the poor will pay the price for it, using a larger portion of their income- but they will pay the price. In fact dense urban areas where there are more people per square mile, even if poorer, can yield more profits that mo betta, more sparsely settled Germanic areas. A hard-nosed utility manager doing the math may well be seeing more profits where there were LESS Germans, compared to say more densely packed in Irish, for a given area. In such a case those idyllic German neighborhoods may not be so hot after all.


    .
    Dubois continues success with very few move ins but with people cultivated from long family ties. Kids go to college but many come back unlike other dying rural areas where the smart kids move to Indianapolis or out of state.

    Dubois sounds like a nice place and all, but doesn't seen particularly profitable. Packed tenements filled with poor Jews, or Poles in NYC might actually not only be more profitable per square foot or square mile of area, but would eventually post higher incomes and education levels than bucolic Dubois. Nice blond haired kids might be moving back in and all, and that makes for a nice, slower paced suburban/rural "Leave It To Beaver" feel and such, but you notice the place ain't pace-setting Silicon Valley by any means, or bustling, hustling New York where a lot more money is to be made, and a lot more diverse cultural amenities and selections are at hand.

    There is also another side to "Germanness" that you don't mention- which some German writers themselves have criticized. The much commented upon "Teutonic character" with its supposed conformity, robotism, and penchant for the systematic cruelty. Unfair some say. But why should Germans get a pure halo and be exempt from scrutiny when other people are so casually stereotyped? If other groups are to be stereotyped for their supposed "proclivities" then the Germans too, as northern European "role models", must take their place in the dock for their "proclivities" . Christopher Browning's detailed study "Ordinary Men" shows the conformist side and the banal cruelty of the "Teuton" as ordinary cooks, bakers and accountants in the SS police battalions, killed tens of thousands willingly, even zealously, even when they could opt out without penalty. Some even invited their wives and girlfriends to witness the good cleansing work.

    Some might argue that the rebellious, flashy, wild, fiercely independent "Irish model" that settled the south (Scotch-Irish version), and the northern cities (Catholic version) is preferable to conformist, "European Teuton" Germanic types. The identification of the Scotch-Irish with the rugged frontiersman has struck a chord in popular white culture over and above the "Teuton." Re "German character" see Delbruck et al below...

    http://onlinebooks.library.upenn.edu/webbin/book/browse?type=lcsubc&key=National%20characteristics%2C%20German&c=x

    Well, from “getting a pure halo” to “Nazism as national trait” and genetic procilivity, now that is some nuanced reasoning!

  98. FWIW says:
    @ChaseBizzy
    The Athenaeum building here in Indianapolis was known as Das Deutsche Haus until the outbreak of WWI for example. Anti-German sentiment was incredibly strong and many German Americans made a conscious effort to essentially become generic Americans if they hadn't already. It was one of those remarkably significant sociological occurrences in U.S. history that have essentially been forgotten.

    My grandfather recounted how he and some group went to chat with German farmers and sell them War Bonds. He didn’t say how much pressure was involved, but it was more than a little.

    Afterwards, he was pretty angry about the whole War Bond deal and thought it was pretty messed up. Everyone got nicked heavily by inflation.

    He also was of the opinion that Germany used up its chances in WWII and was quite in favor of pastoralization. Or just leveling the place and all buildings. Not that we didn’t half do it already, but he wasn’t too keen on Germany. He got along fine, really. His best friend was a Czech farmer. I think I recall him using the term, Bohunks or something like that. Like a generic eastern european.

    • Replies: @ChaseBizzy
    Bohunk was the term my father used when talking about his best friend from high school who was the son of Latvian immigrants.
    , @OsRazor

    He also was of the opinion that Germany used up its chances in WWII and was quite in favor of pastoralization. Or just leveling the place and all buildings. Not that we didn’t half do it already, but he wasn’t too keen on Germany.
     
    Your grandfather was Henry Morgenthau, Jr. perhaps?
  99. @BubbaJoe
    In fairness, Sean MacBride was an impressive man. Still only half-green though. There have been a few American/Australian nobel winners of green Irish extraction; Peter Doherty (AUS), John O'Keefe, Joseph Murray (half Italian). You mention Callan in your linked post- a rare sighting in Physics. There were a few lights in Chemistry and, again, medicine from Ireland that did well on the continent in the past. But, on the whole, it doesn't so look so impressive.

    There were a few lights in Chemistry and, again, medicine from Ireland that did well on the continent in the past. But, on the whole, it doesn’t so look so impressive.

    Those sorts of things are not what the Celt is ultimately for.

    The secular is the flowering of the sacred, but that is only one stage of the life-cycle.

  100. @syonredux

    On a man to man basis, the Germans and the Anglos (genetically distant by 1500 years only) are the most significant human beings of the last 200 years of Modernity. And we demonize success.

     

    Actually, recent studies show that the Germanic invasion of Britain was not quite as demographically overwhelming as some have thought:

    One thousand and five hundred years ago innumerable Germans, Saxons, Angles and Jutes, came to the shores of Britain, and transformed it into England. One thousand and five hundred years ago the trunk of the English language was grafted upon a fundamentally British ethnic root. Post-Roman Britain was subject to a massive migration of Germans in the 6th century, and, the majority of the ancestry of the people of the British Isles derives from the period before the Anglo-Saxon migrations.
     
    Leaving that to one side, here are some interesting figures regarding the inter-relationship between demography and accomplishment:



    Nobel Prize WINNERS:

    Latin America: 15

    Anglo-America (USA plus Canada): 376

    So, Latin America is flatland.And Anglo-America is the Alps.

    Now, let’s look at the sources of American accomplishment:

    As reported in the 2010 census, the major Euro ethnic groups in the USA are:Germans, Irish, English, and Italians.How many Nobel Prize winners have these ethnic groups produced in their places of origin?

    Germany: 102

    Ireland: 10

    England/UK: 115

    Italy:20

    Clearly, the Anglos and the Germans having been doing a lot of heavy lifting.Also, it's pretty clear that having 100 million Hispanic Mestizos and Amerinds in the USA by 2060 is bad news for America.

    Razib is such a horrible writer:

    One thousand and five hundred years ago innumerable Germans, Saxons, Angles and Jutes, came to the shores of Britain, and transformed it into England. One thousand and five hundred years ago the trunk of the English language was grafted upon a fundamentally British ethnic root. Post-Roman Britain was subject to a massive migration of Germans in the 6th century, and, the majority of the ancestry of the people of the British Isles derives from the period before the Anglo-Saxon migrations.

    He says “innumerable” and “massive” then says “and,” not “but,” “the majority… derives from before.” He plants in our heads words that imply significant impact. We didn’t bring “innumerable” to the table. He did. Than he introduces an opposite thought, that “innumerable” wasn’t so great. Reversing his trend without warning makes it almost essential to reread the passage. But it must be worth it.

    I grew up here speaking English. I didn’t have the advantage of learning it by reading Clan of the Cave Bear cover to cover at a sleepover when I was 5. Razib’s more cosmopolitan perspective can see beyond the bourgeois distinctions among English conjunctions.

    • Replies: @Rob McX
    Khan: "...the trunk of the English language was grafted upon a fundamentally British ethnic root". German was transplanted entirely, not grafted on to the indigenous language of the Britons. Very few English words are of Celtic origin.
  101. @Neil Templeton
    "When the Germans came they found some of the best land, even though they were beaten to it by two decades."

    I think what is more likely is that rather than breaking virgin soil that had been overlooked by the Scots-Irish, the Germans purchased the land at an attractive price from tenants who had been practicing extensive farming and herding, and made it produce more than previous. The Scots-Irish were very effective pioneers, but never known for efficient, intensive, agriculture. And where in America were the Germans the first to settle the land and hold the natives at bay?

    Maybe a natural progression is at work: Native peoples - primarily hunter gatherers / Scots-Irish - primitive farmers and herders / Germans - efficient agronomists / Higher order Scots, Anglos, and Germans - commerce, industry, and finance / Mediterranean Commercial Peoples - more efficient commerce and finance.

    “And where in America were the Germans the first to settle the land and hold the natives at bay?”

    Well, they kind of tried that in southwestern Minnesota. It didn’t end very well. See:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dakota_War_of_1862

    • Replies: @syonredux

    “And where in America were the Germans the first to settle the land and hold the natives at bay?”

    Well, they kind of tried that in southwestern Minnesota. It didn’t end very well. See:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dakota_War_of_1862
     
    Weren't a lot of the settlers there Scandinavian, not German?Or am I being unduly influenced by the Max von Sydow film, The New Land, which chronicles the lives of Scandinavian settlers in Minnesota:

    After suffering several miscarriages, Kristina falls ill and becomes bedridden, gradually weakening. Kristina dies in 1862, during a period marked in American history by the Sioux Uprising of 1862, during which Sioux warriors killed more than 500 white settlers across the upper Midwest, among them Kristina's uncle Danjel and his three grown children. The film shows some of these warriors being hanged.
     
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_New_Land

    In any case, it's a very good film
  102. @Enrique Cardova
    BLS says:

    So, here are the observations I noticed over the years. The earliest Scotch-Irish and British (Anglo) settlers had a run of finding land and starting farms in the hill country. Of course that land to this day isn’t much for farming but better for livestock and remains relatively economically challenged. When the Germans came they found some of the best land, even though they were beaten to it by two decades.

    Not necessarily. The actual case may be the opposite. As scholar Thomas Sowell shows (1981, 1983) the Germans actually came along after the Scotch-Irish had the pick of the BEST land. The Germans typically took over less than prime land and worked harder and more thoroughly- laboriously pulling up stumps for example, left behind by the Scotch Irish, and building more barns for livestock rather leave them to the elements- more so than the Scotch-Irish who were sloppier farmers. Germans did not find the best land. They put in greater effort on "second string" land and made it more productive.

    And curiously, the Germans in the US, tended to be more tolerant people- not flaming liberals of their era- far from it- but generally willing to live and let live other people in peace, unlike the white Irish who were always picking fights among themselves and with others. And though German individuals and communities had some diversity of opinion, German Americans overall, on average, were more supportive of the abolition of slavery than the Irish.

    .
    Essentially what I noticed and what is a long murmured joke is that Germans were successful wherever they went and made the area more successful based on the percentage of German majority. Anglo areas struggled and continue to, and both groups are just miles apart.

    Fair enough but then how does genetics explain this? Both groups are white Europeans related closely genetically.

    .
    My hypothesis has been that Germanness matters.
    Sure, a fair minded observer would say you have a point. They can be contrasted against the Scotch-Irish, originating in the more volatile, more violent and disruptive England-Scot-Wales border lands were a large proportion of settlers in the American South, and transplanted that disreputable, lower-end "redneck" culture there and elsewhere, with dire results at certain times and places. They can also be contrasted also against the equally if not more violent and poverty-culture Catholic white Irish. (Sowell 2005- Black Rednecks, White Liberals).

    .
    Ultimately, I suggest that rural development and economic development dollars spent are many times wasted simply because of the ethnic background of the people.. All over Indiana places where German ancestry is a higher percentage of the population the better the money is spent.

    Maybe true in part if as to a specific farming project, but keep in mind that rural and economic development assistance dollars ALSO benefited Germans as well. Rural electrification for example, a great boon, benefited German farmers as well as non German. Econ development dollars are often dollars spent on public goods benefiting large areas, and economies of scale become a necessity. A road running from Germantown into Irish town benefits both areas, and it would be inefficient to stop the road after 6 miles because you were on the outskirts of Germantown.

    Likewise electrification- sometimes it can only pay for itself by scale, millions of subscribers over a large area sharing the costs. Rerouting all power lines around the Italian part of town for example fails to take advantage of economies of scale. With something like electricity even the poor will pay the price for it, using a larger portion of their income- but they will pay the price. In fact dense urban areas where there are more people per square mile, even if poorer, can yield more profits that mo betta, more sparsely settled Germanic areas. A hard-nosed utility manager doing the math may well be seeing more profits where there were LESS Germans, compared to say more densely packed in Irish, for a given area. In such a case those idyllic German neighborhoods may not be so hot after all.


    .
    Dubois continues success with very few move ins but with people cultivated from long family ties. Kids go to college but many come back unlike other dying rural areas where the smart kids move to Indianapolis or out of state.

    Dubois sounds like a nice place and all, but doesn't seen particularly profitable. Packed tenements filled with poor Jews, or Poles in NYC might actually not only be more profitable per square foot or square mile of area, but would eventually post higher incomes and education levels than bucolic Dubois. Nice blond haired kids might be moving back in and all, and that makes for a nice, slower paced suburban/rural "Leave It To Beaver" feel and such, but you notice the place ain't pace-setting Silicon Valley by any means, or bustling, hustling New York where a lot more money is to be made, and a lot more diverse cultural amenities and selections are at hand.

    There is also another side to "Germanness" that you don't mention- which some German writers themselves have criticized. The much commented upon "Teutonic character" with its supposed conformity, robotism, and penchant for the systematic cruelty. Unfair some say. But why should Germans get a pure halo and be exempt from scrutiny when other people are so casually stereotyped? If other groups are to be stereotyped for their supposed "proclivities" then the Germans too, as northern European "role models", must take their place in the dock for their "proclivities" . Christopher Browning's detailed study "Ordinary Men" shows the conformist side and the banal cruelty of the "Teuton" as ordinary cooks, bakers and accountants in the SS police battalions, killed tens of thousands willingly, even zealously, even when they could opt out without penalty. Some even invited their wives and girlfriends to witness the good cleansing work.

    Some might argue that the rebellious, flashy, wild, fiercely independent "Irish model" that settled the south (Scotch-Irish version), and the northern cities (Catholic version) is preferable to conformist, "European Teuton" Germanic types. The identification of the Scotch-Irish with the rugged frontiersman has struck a chord in popular white culture over and above the "Teuton." Re "German character" see Delbruck et al below...

    http://onlinebooks.library.upenn.edu/webbin/book/browse?type=lcsubc&key=National%20characteristics%2C%20German&c=x

    “Fair enough but then how does genetics explain this? Both groups are white Europeans related closely genetically.”

    Groups that start out the same can diverge over time due to selective pressures. Do you think Scandinavians have the same propensity for violence they had during Viking times?

    • Replies: @Jim
    The number of Viking raiders was a very small percent of the total population of Scandanavia and of course those who choose a life of raiding were not exactly a random selection of the Scandanavian population.

    On the other hand Scandanavian epics definitely glorify warriors and fighting.
    , @anonitron
    They're pretty good at Counter-Strike.
    , @Enrique Cardova
    Groups that start out the same can diverge over time due to selective pressures. Do you think Scandinavians have the same propensity for violence they had during Viking times?

    Sure groups can change over time, and the Scandinavians have shown good patterns, but it may nothing to do with any "genetics" at all as so much simplistic reasoning in some places asserts. There is nothing "genetic" about a small sub-section of raiders and pirates like the Vikes, changing from a raiding way of life, to a less violent, more settled pattern when (a) victim peoples developed stronger defenses and rulers, (b) adverse changing climates contributed to withdrawal of significant Vike settlements in other places like Greenland and Iceland, (c) some raiders realized that it would be more profitable to settle down and extract or co-opt resources from cowed populations, rather than to raid continually. Aside from these examples there are also other factors too that contributed to the outcomes.

    The "Viking Age" is held by most scholars to be around 300-400 years and simplistic claims of sweeping "genetic changes" that either caused the Vikes to emerge in the first place, or that caused their decline afterward, are dubious. What DNA haplogroups changed in 300-400 years example that make for a "kinder, gentler" Scandinavian? And why didn't this reputed "kinder, gentler "gene selection" make for less aggressive Swedes and Danes during their great period of European war-fighting and hegemonic conquest? Or their colonization and hegemony over other peoples in places like England? What specifically are these mysterious genes being "selected" for that would cause this- either the high aggression or the lower aggression? Proponents are long on sweeping assertions, but short on specific, concrete data.

  103. @Felix
    Why are you spending so much time on this chitty professor?I guarantee you he couldn't care less about the validity of his theories, so long as they gain him recognition and the accompanying rise in status and all it entails. Whether they're correct or not is beside the point and all the same to this chitty fellow, so why you devote so much time to debunking him is beyond me. I almost guarantee you he himself laughs at his bullshit theories when he's drunk and among friends, and then (justifiably so) laughs at the country.

    Why are you spending so much time on this chitty professor?

    I agree. This is just bullchit.

  104. @Reg Cæsar


    Heh. My family named was Anglicized during WWI.

     

    Mine wasn't, though an unrelated neighbor of the same name changed his. Grandpa came from a big family, the other guy was alone. Always arrange coverage.

    Even the UK Royal Family changed their name during WWI – from Saxe-Coburg-Gotha to Windsor.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Saxe-Coburg_and_Gotha#United_Kingdom

    The Volga Germans were to Russia as the US Germans are in the US – indeed many US Germans ARE Volga Germans.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volga_Germans#North_America

  105. @Peter Meyer
    I'm always suspicious of self-reported American ancestry, especially as concerns the more "exotic" strains like German, Norwegian etc. In the USA British surnames (English, Scottish, Welsh) still overwhelm German surnames. The supposedly common name change at Ellis Island is more a myth than a historical reality.

    But there are definite cultural differences between the Midwest and the Southeast, and for that matter between the Midwest and the Northeast. Midwesterners on the whole have a very egalitarian cast of mind; one man may be a rich farmer and another man a poor farmer, but they are both farmers. Very different from the regions with a heavier English influence, where living in the right neighborhood/going to the right church/attending the right university is thought to entitle one to automatic deference from the lumpens. No coincidence that most of the best public universities are in the Midwest and its colony California.

    “I’m always suspicious of self-reported American ancestry, especially as concerns the more “exotic” strains like German, Norwegian etc. In the USA British surnames (English, Scottish, Welsh) still overwhelm German surnames. The supposedly common name change at Ellis Island is more a myth than a historical reality.”

    German is exotic?? They were an absolutely humongous immigrant group.

    Norwegian may sound exotic in, say, New York or South Carolina, but its almost monotonously common in the upper midwest.

    Italians seem a bit exotic in rural Minnesota.

    And I can tell you that, wherever they did it, the replacement of ethnic names with English was very very common. My ancestors are prime examples. If you meet someone in Minnesota named Johnson, chances are their great-great-grandfather was a Swede named Jonsson or a Norwegian named Johansen, or something similar.

    • Replies: @Peter Meyer
    "And I can tell you that, wherever they did it, the replacement of ethnic names with English was very very common. "

    And what is even more common is being mostly descended from British immigrants who not only outnumbered Germans but also had a significant lead time on them (important with fertility above replacement rates). Americans love to focus on distant, insignificant and thus exaggerated portions of their heritages ("I'm 1/8th Cherokee") rather than just accept what they are, which is Anglos living in an Anglo colony. Escapism I guess. I've lived in Minnesota and even amongst the Meyers and Gustasfsons you will find plenty of Smiths and Jones.
  106. @Sean
    Scots Irish are said to have had an aversion to valleys, which they thought would be boggy as in Ireland, and often lost out on the best land because they tended to settled on hills. They also had the reputation for being restless and making several moves rather that settling in one place. Also immigrants (who happened to be Germans) benefitted from the way the frontier land was opened up and sometimes got granted extremely good land immediately on arrival, much to the annoyance of the established population. There were some range wars over that. But no doubt the Germans made better farmers. Ethnic Germans played a prominent role in Tsarist Russia, and Solzhenitsyn said in the communities of ex-Gulag inmates, Germans and their children were known for their industriousness, probity and female chasteness.

    “in the communities of ex-Gulag inmates, Germans and their children were known for their industriousness, probity and female chasteness”

    Tacitus had the same impression 2,000 years ago.

    http://www.ourcivilisation.com/smartboard/shop/tacitusc/germany/chap1.htm

    “Thus it is that the German women live in a chastity that is impregnable, uncorrupted by the temptations of public shows or the excitements of banquets. Clandestine love-letters are unknown to men and women alike. Adultery in that populous nation is rare in the extreme, and punishment is summary and left to the husband. He shaves off his wife’s hair, strips her in the presence of kinsmen, thrusts her from his house and flogs her through the whole village. They have, in fact, no mercy on a woman who prostitutes her chastity. Neither beauty, youth nor wealth can find the sinner a husband. No one in Germany finds vice amusing, or calls it `up-to-date’ to debauch and be debauched. It is still better with those states in which only virgins marry, and the hopes and prayers of a wife are settled once and for all. They take one husband, like the one body or life that they possess. No thought or desire must stray beyond him. They must not love the husband so much as the married state.”

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    I've read a few critiques of this passage which indicate that Tacitus was exaggerating in order to shame his Contemporary Romans.
    , @Desiderius

    They must not love the husband so much as the married state.
     
    I’m wife; I ’ve finished that,
    That other state;
    I ’m Czar, I ’m woman now:
    It ’s safer so.

    How odd the girl’s life looks
    Behind this soft eclipse!
    I think that earth seems so
    To those in heaven now.

    This being comfort, then
    That other kind was pain;
    But why compare?
    I ’m wife! stop there!

    - Emily Dickinson (high Anglo-Saxon, chafing at the ways of the Allemani)

    No one in Germany finds vice amusing, or calls it `up-to-date’ to debauch and be debauched.
     
    Was just watching a Michael Palin thing on PBS where he was congratulating Tuareg women in Africa for their "liberated" sexual mores. Progtarditry is so inane.
  107. @FWIW
    My grandfather recounted how he and some group went to chat with German farmers and sell them War Bonds. He didn't say how much pressure was involved, but it was more than a little.

    Afterwards, he was pretty angry about the whole War Bond deal and thought it was pretty messed up. Everyone got nicked heavily by inflation.

    He also was of the opinion that Germany used up its chances in WWII and was quite in favor of pastoralization. Or just leveling the place and all buildings. Not that we didn't half do it already, but he wasn't too keen on Germany. He got along fine, really. His best friend was a Czech farmer. I think I recall him using the term, Bohunks or something like that. Like a generic eastern european.

    Bohunk was the term my father used when talking about his best friend from high school who was the son of Latvian immigrants.

  108. @unit472
    An Italian from New Jersey once gave a rather caustic but intelligent answer to a question about why Appalachia was so much poorer ( and had a lower percentage of attractive females) than the Piedmont and Coastal areas of the Anglo Saxon mid Atlantic.

    His theory was very abbreviated. That as colonists came across the Atlantic some were told to "Keep on walking" when they came ashore, i.e. that 'dorks' have always existed and have always been excluded by the more robust and popular people. That colonial towns and the richest farm lands were not for them and that 'dork-like' people were driven out of more successful areas.

    Wow, even black people know more about American colonial history than that.

  109. @Thought Police
    Were the Irish less intelligent than other European settlers? It pains me as a native to say this but in all likelihood we/they were. The Germans were of good Jewish / Saxon stock. The English and Scots were upper class / nobility. (founding fathers were all WASPS iirc) The Irish came from small, leased (from those WASPY landlords) plots of land which were adequate (barring any major agricultural disaster that is) for subsistence living. Most were happy to be alive let alone receive an education.

    They were in many respects in the same boat (sometimes literally) as the blacks. I've heard the argument the Irish had it worse, but that's for another time.

    I’m so glad I wasn’t born an Irish-American; those WASPs really seem to mess with the collective Irish-American mind. Why did Irish-Canadians, Irish-Australians and Irish Argentines thrive and feel confident while Irish-Americans seem to be the biggest collection of self-haters the internet has ever seen? Take it from an Irish-Canadian: there’s something deeply wrong with you people.

    I guess a person who knows he has Irish DNA can’t embrace 19th century Anglospherical racial theories and keep both his dignity and sanity. Something has to give.

    • Replies: @BurplesonAFB
    From Irish Canadians I've met, they seem to be mostly Protestant transplants from the 1870s and on. Perhaps that's only the case out here in the west.
    , @Thought Police

    Why did Irish-Canadians, Irish-Australians and Irish Argentines thrive and feel confident while Irish-Americans seem to be the biggest collection of self-haters the internet has ever seen?
     
    Systemic Racism. Micro-aggressions. WASPY supremacists. :P
  110. @Former Darfur
    The situation in Indiana is sort of similar to the one in Missouri where another far Northwest border county, Nodaway, is much different than its neighbors, but in a reverse way. "Nodaway County has a significant history of violence", as the Wiki says, because while the rural parts of North (of I-70) Missouri are full of Scandinavian and German farmers and other good burghers, Nodaway is a northern outpost of the Old South. And damn proud of it to this day. I have met descendants of the Youngers (as in Cole Younger) and several other names of Old West rambunctiousness from there.

    This Wikipedia entry on one Nodaway county miscreant illustrates your point:

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_McElroy

    Definitely rambunctious rather than the Good Burgher type.

    • Replies: @Ivy
    Makes me think of the people in Winter's Bone, Jennifer Lawrence's movie.
  111. You see this pattern in Missouri which is a mix of Germans and Scotch-Irish. Driving around small towns in central Missouri along the Missouri River if you notice Catholic, Lutheran, and United Church of Christ (formerly German Evangelic and Reformed) churches, the town is usually tidy. If you see Baptist and Fundamentalist churches, the town is usually ramshackle. The Ozarks are mostly Scotch-Irish as the land is poor quality for farming while the Germans settled further north and near the more fertile river valleys.

  112. @Anonymous Nephew
    "in the communities of ex-Gulag inmates, Germans and their children were known for their industriousness, probity and female chasteness"

    Tacitus had the same impression 2,000 years ago.

    http://www.ourcivilisation.com/smartboard/shop/tacitusc/germany/chap1.htm

    "Thus it is that the German women live in a chastity that is impregnable, uncorrupted by the temptations of public shows or the excitements of banquets. Clandestine love-letters are unknown to men and women alike. Adultery in that populous nation is rare in the extreme, and punishment is summary and left to the husband. He shaves off his wife's hair, strips her in the presence of kinsmen, thrusts her from his house and flogs her through the whole village. They have, in fact, no mercy on a woman who prostitutes her chastity. Neither beauty, youth nor wealth can find the sinner a husband. No one in Germany finds vice amusing, or calls it `up-to-date' to debauch and be debauched. It is still better with those states in which only virgins marry, and the hopes and prayers of a wife are settled once and for all. They take one husband, like the one body or life that they possess. No thought or desire must stray beyond him. They must not love the husband so much as the married state."

    I’ve read a few critiques of this passage which indicate that Tacitus was exaggerating in order to shame his Contemporary Romans.

    • Replies: @Enrique Cardova
    Maybe Tacitus was exaggerating to shame some Romans, but as noted above he had a lot of negatives to say about the Germans as well, such as their violence and lack of farming productivity. How this changed as the centuries went on Sowell notes, and the people themselves underwent no "genetic selection" for better, less violent farmers. Tacitus rightly lauds them on the point of married morality, which I think is a plus, but does not mention the other side of the coin. Numerous modern writers for example have shown that women held relatively high monetary value via the bride price, and thus were carefully protected. A virgin bride brought a much higher price or dowry than a "fallen woman" so there was a property interest in apparent virginity, and the laws permitted male relatives to exact physical retribution on "midnight poppers"of the Rhine-maiden booty.

    However the laws are conspicuously silent on homosexual relationships, and these were common in ancient Germania. Says one scholar of the subject:


    "Like other people in the ancient world, the Germanic tribes were known for their homosexual customs which were documented in accounts of Roman writers. The first-century AD Roman rhetorician and teacher Quintilian cited the Germans' high regard for homosexual love in one of his oratorical works. In the late 4th century, Ammiannus Marcellinus wrote of homosexual customs among the Taifali, a Germanic tribe related to the Goths, which involved formal homosexual relationships between warriors and young men undergoing initiating and military training. Clovis, king of the Salian branch of the Franks in the late 5th century, acknowledged his own homosexual relationships in his earlier life at the time of his baptism. The sixth-century historian Procopius described homosexual relationships very similar to the homosexual initiation of the Taifali among warriors and young initiates of one of the Frankish tribes, the Heruli...

    An incident related by Procopius that occurred during the time of the Vandals' capture of Rome is also highly revealing of the Germanic attitude to male homosexuality.. the Vandals sent 300 of their sexually attractive young men as homosexual bait, offering them as 'house slaves; for Roman patricians who falling for the trick, took them into their houses, after which the young men murdered their hosts..

    ..among early Scandinavian warriors sexual relationships between warrior peers called blood brothers, ere formalized with a "blood brothers" ritual, and such blood brother relationships were a significant enough element of early Norse society that they wee enshrined in one of the Sagas. Archeological evidence indicates that such peer relationships may have dated back as far as 2000 B.C., to the time of the arrival of the first Indo-Europeans in Northern Europe."

    "Because of the high monetary value attached to a woman [under Germanic law] the most prominent sexual crime was adultery- adultery of the wife, not the husband... In common with Roman attitudes, the men were free to engage in whatever sexual activity they wished before or outside marriage as long as they didn't violate another man's wife or virgin daughters. Conspicuous by their absence in the German tribal laws are laws of any kind punishing homosexual acts."

    --James Neill, 2008. The Origins and Role of Same-Sex Relations in Human Societies

     

  113. @Anonymous
    Marge Schott was German Catholic and from Cincinnati.

    As is Roger Staubach.

  114. @Enrique Cardova
    This is the same argument Sowell makes in his Black rednecks, White liberals and in earlier books. The white south is more backward than the white north. Indeed some IQ tests show white Southerners almost one standard deviation below the northerners, with some blacks from various northern states, outperforming southern whites from certain states. (Sowell 1981, 1978 1983, Montagu 1972)

    As Sowell notes re white Southern culture:

    " What the [white] rednecks or crackers brought with them across the ocean was a whole constellation of attitudes, values, and behavior patterns that might have made sense in the world in which they had lived for centuries, but which would prove to be counterproductive in the world to which they were going — and counterproductive to the blacks who would live in their midst for centuries before emerging into freedom and migrating to the great urban centers of the United States, taking with them similar values.

    The cultural values and social patterns prevalent among Southern whites included an aversion to work, proneness to violence, neglect of education, sexual promiscuity, improvidence, drunkenness, lack of entrepreneurship, reckless searches for excitement, a lively music and dance, and a style of religious oratory marked by strident rhetoric, unbridled emotions, and flamboyant imagery... Touchy pride, vanity, and boastful self-dramatization were also part of this redneck culture among people from regions of Britain where the civilization was the least developed."
     

    Southern whites are somewhat below Northern whites in average IQ but your statement that they are one standard deviation below is complete total and utter nonsense.

  115. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Jefferson
    Why is St. Patrick's Day more widely celebrated in the U.S than Oktoberfest? When German Americans outnumber Irish Americans.

    In the 21st Century does German culture and traditions still get a bad rep in the U.S because of World War 2? Just because you celebrate Oktoberfest, it does not automatically mean you worship Adolf Hitler.

    In the 21st Century does German culture and traditions still get a bad rep in the U.S because of World War 2?

    Actually, the destruction of Germanic culture in America began in the build-up to WWI, and was largely completed before the great depression. Cincinnati, Columbus, Milwaukee and others had large German-language communities that were mostly driven underground. Cincinnati had 3 German language newspapers fail during that period. Prohibition also played a role. Cincy had several thousand neighborhood bars (averaging one per block, if I recall correctly), and in a third or more German was the primary language.

  116. @Steve Sailer
    Sure, New York City is where you can get from the Atlantic to the Great Lakes via the Hudson River and the Eire Canal, Chicago is where you can get from the Great Lakes to the Mississippi.

    Dallas mostly exists due to force of will of local promoters, but most other rich cities have some transportation logic working for them.

    Dallas is a rail hub. Many railroads crossed each other at this spot early on which attracted other railroads to build out to Dallas.

  117. Jim says:
    @Anonymous
    The Mennonites are interesting. They're like the Amish, but they use modern technology and methods, and are very organized and do communal labor, rather than just family labor like the Amish. They also have an interesting policy where once a community becomes a certain size, they hold a lottery and people are selected to leave and set up a colony elsewhere.

    I’ve never seen an Amish person smile or laugh. They always seem to have a very grim visage and they walk right past you without a glance as if you didn’t exist. The Mennonites though always seem to talking and laughing among themselves. Of course they also dress in a colorful way while the Amish are always dressed in plain black.

    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    We have a lot of Amish in Western NY and my wife and I shop once in a while at a Amish "package" store that we call the "Amish Aldis." This winter, while in Amish country, I saw maybe 12 carriages lined up behind an Amish country store. There was a group of at least 20 Amish boys and girls, in their traditional garb playing hockey on a frozen pond. I can assure you that they were laughing and having fun. They are polite, but not overly friendly to "English" people, their name for non-Amish. Another thing I have noticed about the Amish, is while they live in communities, they don't seem to have a central town or village, just a lot of farms near to each other.
    , @ben tillman

    I’ve never seen an Amish person smile or laugh. They always seem to have a very grim visage and they walk right past you without a glance as if you didn’t exist. The Mennonites though always seem to talking and laughing among themselves. Of course they also dress in a colorful way while the Amish are always dressed in plain black.
     
    Maybe where you live, but the Amish women I encounter are fond of interesting hues of blue.
  118. Mike Zwick [AKA "Dahinda"] says:

    Chicago’s suburban region started out the similar way as Dubois County. Wasps from the east settled first followed by tons of Germans. The Germans left their mark in all of the place names and road names in the area. Schaumburg, Hannover Park, Schiller Park, Palatine, Bremen Township and Mannheim Road, Schick Road, Schermer Road, Landmeier Road etc..

  119. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    And the irony of course, that before the Civil War, it could well be said that the South had produced more significant citizens of note; after all, the South was the wealthiest region in the US prior to the Civil War and for obvious reasons.

    Seems as though the legacy of the War has meant that Dixie just hasn't been able to catch up to the North. Wonder if it ever shall?

    And the irony of course, that before the Civil War, it could well be said that the South had produced more significant citizens of note; after all, the South was the wealthiest region in the US prior to the Civil War and for obvious reasons.

    Again, no.In the arts and the sciences, the South was a massive underperformer in the antebellum period.The North produced a very large number of significant figures during the period 1607-1861: Jonathan Edwards, Benjamin Franklin, Eli Whitney, Joseph Henry, John Fulton, Hawthorne, Melville, Whitman, Emerson, Parkman, Prescott, Thoreau, Dickinson, Morse, Benjamin Thompson, etc.

    The South, in contrast, produced only a small handful of figures, men like Poe (who was born in Boston, received his early schooling in England, and spent a large portion of his career in Northern cities like New York and Philadelphia) and Matthew Fontaine Maury ( a pioneering oceanographer).

    As for the South being wealthier, that was not true on a per capita basis.The cotton boom produced a lot millionaires in the South, but the Native born Whites were more impoverished than their cousins in Northern states.

    • Replies: @Hippopotamusdrome
    "Again, no.In the arts and the sciences, the South was a massive underperformer in the antebellum period."

    Cyrus McCormick
    "... Cyrus McCormick was born February 15, 1809 in the Shenandoah Valley of Virginia. ..."
    , @Desiderius

    Again, no.In the arts and the sciences, the South was a massive underperformer in the antebellum period.
     
    Well, the arts and sciences are the sphere of the Priestly class. The South was settled by-and-large by the Warrior class, the Scots-Irish* in the highlands and the Cavalier in the Low.

    Maybe if that Priestly class hadn't been so anxious to denigrate the Warriors in service of mere regional chauvinism, we all wouldn't be paying so much danegeld today and we'd be able to defend our borders.

    * - the shock troops of the British Empire
  120. Letting in hordes of Germans was one of the biggest mistakes this nation ever made. Their blind obedience to authority and love of being told what to do did not fit with the Rights of Englishmen that this nation was based on.

    • Replies: @Clyde
    Nice go at trolling. The best American farmers were and are Germans and Dutch who are the same. This was the foundation of America that industry was built on. And the German-Americans excelled at building up our heartland industries too.
    , @Hibernian
    William Shirer in "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" noted that those who left Germany for America tended to be more democratically minded than those who stayed behind,
  121. @Rob McX
    Germany wasn’t a unified state until 1871. Compare that to centuries old unifications of France and England.

    France - not really. Administratively, legally and linguistically, it wasn't fully unified until the 19th century. Despite the absolute monarchy under the Bourbons, it was nonetheless a convoluted hodgepodge of laws varying by region. It made taxation, among other things, a nightmare.

    At the time of the Revolution, people spoke eight or nine mutually unintelligible dialects of French, with only half the population being able to speak any of the "standard" form of the language. Even by 1871, only a quarter of the population spoke standard French as their native tongue. According to the linguist Henriette Walter, it was the mass mobilisation for the First World War that finally gave standard French its status as the de facto national language.

    You’re quite right about the extremely disjointed nature of France prior to the nineteenth century.

  122. @syonredux

    On a man to man basis, the Germans and the Anglos (genetically distant by 1500 years only) are the most significant human beings of the last 200 years of Modernity. And we demonize success.

     

    Actually, recent studies show that the Germanic invasion of Britain was not quite as demographically overwhelming as some have thought:

    One thousand and five hundred years ago innumerable Germans, Saxons, Angles and Jutes, came to the shores of Britain, and transformed it into England. One thousand and five hundred years ago the trunk of the English language was grafted upon a fundamentally British ethnic root. Post-Roman Britain was subject to a massive migration of Germans in the 6th century, and, the majority of the ancestry of the people of the British Isles derives from the period before the Anglo-Saxon migrations.
     
    Leaving that to one side, here are some interesting figures regarding the inter-relationship between demography and accomplishment:



    Nobel Prize WINNERS:

    Latin America: 15

    Anglo-America (USA plus Canada): 376

    So, Latin America is flatland.And Anglo-America is the Alps.

    Now, let’s look at the sources of American accomplishment:

    As reported in the 2010 census, the major Euro ethnic groups in the USA are:Germans, Irish, English, and Italians.How many Nobel Prize winners have these ethnic groups produced in their places of origin?

    Germany: 102

    Ireland: 10

    England/UK: 115

    Italy:20

    Clearly, the Anglos and the Germans having been doing a lot of heavy lifting.Also, it's pretty clear that having 100 million Hispanic Mestizos and Amerinds in the USA by 2060 is bad news for America.

    It isn’t just the Mestizo portion of Hispanic ethnicity that is the problem. Spain itself has always been a backwater when it comes to scientific and technical achievement. I’m pretty sure the list of Nobel Laureates in science, math, and economics of Spanish descent is pretty barren. And it’s not just Anglos and Germans who outcompete them, but their fellow Latins the French and Italians as well.

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    Spain itself has always been a backwater when it comes to scientific and technical achievement.

    You don't think it took any scientific or technical achievement to create the world-spanning Spanish Empire?

    We give short shrift to the Iberians today, but the Spanish and Portuguese kicked off the period of European dominance with their epic feats of navigation, exploration, and conquest.
  123. @SFG
    "Fair enough but then how does genetics explain this? Both groups are white Europeans related closely genetically."

    Groups that start out the same can diverge over time due to selective pressures. Do you think Scandinavians have the same propensity for violence they had during Viking times?

    The number of Viking raiders was a very small percent of the total population of Scandanavia and of course those who choose a life of raiding were not exactly a random selection of the Scandanavian population.

    On the other hand Scandanavian epics definitely glorify warriors and fighting.

  124. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Germans have been impressive no matter where they go. That’s always been apparent although it’s been clouded over in the last century due to animosities arising out of the wars. Their areas are nice, neat orderly places. However, if I happen to be a mere polack or dago can I crash their party or am I consigned to always being an alien, just looking over the fence at the greener grass? Another thing that confuses me: aren’t hillbillies also WASPs? They seem to fit the criteria of the acronym yet it gets used mostly to denote the higher class types of the north. Is it just a matter of class snobbery where they pretend that hillbillies aren’t really WASPs?

    • Replies: @BurplesonAFB
    America in 1965 was the most impressive nation that ever existed on the face of the earth, and there were lots of slavs and italians there, and everybody got along. To me that's all the proof we need that a 'White' identity is a workable one.

    There are degenerate Anglo Saxons of course, but hillbillies are disproportionately not them. They're Celts, as has been mentioned many times in this thread. McCormicks behave differently from Coopers on average.
  125. The irony is WASP’s “AS” means “anglo-saxon”, from Schleswig-Holstein and Saxony.

  126. @Anonymous
    South Korea comes to mind........

    I wonder how well and how long it would take S. Korea to absorb N. Korea . . .

  127. @Anonymous
    The Mennonites are interesting. They're like the Amish, but they use modern technology and methods, and are very organized and do communal labor, rather than just family labor like the Amish. They also have an interesting policy where once a community becomes a certain size, they hold a lottery and people are selected to leave and set up a colony elsewhere.

    To the point about the Mennonites being interesting, and their habits in comparison to the Amish…

    Seems to me there’s a lot of variation among Mennonite communities. The Mennonites with whom I interact in Southeastern PA do not personally use a lot of technology. They are more Amish in their habits. They will, though, happily hire someone else to effectively midwife technology for them: Drive them to a farmer’s market, deal with a website, take a phone call, etc. The Amish, here, frequently do the same thing.

    That said, there are quite a few Mennonite Churches near me, and we are not awash in buggies. So I have to assume there are also a fair amount that are indistinguishable from the surrounding population. But I don’t know any of them.

  128. @Christian
    "Irish" Nobels: 5 for "peace", 4 Anglos plus Seamus Heaney.

    Not really any heavy lifting from us Irish I'm afraid. But I think that supports the argument doesn't it?

    Seamus Heaney was at least that extraordinarily rare Nobelist for Literature who actually deserved the prize.

  129. @syonredux

    And the irony of course, that before the Civil War, it could well be said that the South had produced more significant citizens of note; after all, the South was the wealthiest region in the US prior to the Civil War and for obvious reasons.
     
    Again, no.In the arts and the sciences, the South was a massive underperformer in the antebellum period.The North produced a very large number of significant figures during the period 1607-1861: Jonathan Edwards, Benjamin Franklin, Eli Whitney, Joseph Henry, John Fulton, Hawthorne, Melville, Whitman, Emerson, Parkman, Prescott, Thoreau, Dickinson, Morse, Benjamin Thompson, etc.

    The South, in contrast, produced only a small handful of figures, men like Poe (who was born in Boston, received his early schooling in England, and spent a large portion of his career in Northern cities like New York and Philadelphia) and Matthew Fontaine Maury ( a pioneering oceanographer).


    As for the South being wealthier, that was not true on a per capita basis.The cotton boom produced a lot millionaires in the South, but the Native born Whites were more impoverished than their cousins in Northern states.

    “Again, no.In the arts and the sciences, the South was a massive underperformer in the antebellum period.”

    Cyrus McCormick
    “… Cyrus McCormick was born February 15, 1809 in the Shenandoah Valley of Virginia. …”

    • Replies: @syonredux

    “Again, no.In the arts and the sciences, the South was a massive underperformer in the antebellum period.”

    Cyrus McCormick
    “… Cyrus McCormick was born February 15, 1809 in the Shenandoah Valley of Virginia. …”
     
    Yeah, Matthew Fontaine Maury was also born in Virginia.Remember, I didn't say that the South produced no significant figures in the arts and the sciences in the antebellum period.I said that it underperformed relative to the North.
  130. This is not surprising. Germans are known for being systematic, orderly, logical, thorough, efficient, good at engineering, and prone to over-engineering/over-complexity. They are good at things. Good at achieving whatever objective they have. Whether it’s running a farm, designing a piece of machinery, or fighting a battle. They are determined, persistent, and hard working. They have a belief that things should be a certain way, and they will stubbornly persist until they have made things exactly that way. I say all of this as a part German and recognizing those aspects of myself that are evident in my ancestors along that line.

    If you see something that is German made, you can usually expect that it will:
    a) do what it is advertised to do
    b) probably solve some problems or issues with other machines that you will only appreciate after encountering those problems
    c) cost more initially
    d) be better and often cheaper over the long-run.

    So it’s not really that surprising that their companies will be successful. The figure out a way to sell something that is better and really, cheaper for the customer, while also being able to charge more for it. This is a naturally earnest, fair, honest and principled approach to doing business that makes for a cohesive community and nation. And thus it is not really surprising to me that an area full of Germans will be a better place to live in than surrounding areas. They will be wealthier, their towns will make more sense, and there will be more order. There will be less waste.

    It’s probably not an accident that the Russians, upon seeing the German StG 44 assault rifle, created a more rugged, reliable and simple weapon in the AK-47. Sometimes you need to see the vision fleshed out as a first draft before a superior, simplified second draft is made.

  131. OT, but the Israelis just aren’t getting with the multikulti program. They’re now threatening African immigrants living in Israel with deportation or prison.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/toughening-its-stance-toward-migrants-israel-pushes-africans-to-leave/2015/05/14/e1637bce-f350-11e4-bca5-21b51bbdf93e_story.html?tid=pm_pop_b

    My envy grows. Why can’t we have leaders like this?

  132. @FWIW
    My grandfather recounted how he and some group went to chat with German farmers and sell them War Bonds. He didn't say how much pressure was involved, but it was more than a little.

    Afterwards, he was pretty angry about the whole War Bond deal and thought it was pretty messed up. Everyone got nicked heavily by inflation.

    He also was of the opinion that Germany used up its chances in WWII and was quite in favor of pastoralization. Or just leveling the place and all buildings. Not that we didn't half do it already, but he wasn't too keen on Germany. He got along fine, really. His best friend was a Czech farmer. I think I recall him using the term, Bohunks or something like that. Like a generic eastern european.

    He also was of the opinion that Germany used up its chances in WWII and was quite in favor of pastoralization. Or just leveling the place and all buildings. Not that we didn’t half do it already, but he wasn’t too keen on Germany.

    Your grandfather was Henry Morgenthau, Jr. perhaps?

  133. @Desiderius
    The west side of Cincinnati is heavily German Catholic, mostly working class with strong church communities and Catholic schools that do well in academics, sports, and the arts. The east side is Protestant of various backgrounds trending agnostic, with a blend of SWPL and sub/exurban corporate types. Traditionally strong public schools starting to struggle due to NCLB and Common Core, so homeschooling and some charters popping up.

    It's like two different cities.

    I grew up on the east side, and returned after 20 years with my wife to buy a house (solidly) built in 1940 in a leafy west side neighborhood. The section 8 tide is nearby, but seems to have crested.

    German Catholics also abounded just across the Ohio river to Kentucky in Newport, Covington, Bellvue etc. My wifes family is 15/16th German and 1/16 Irish and it was interesting to see from genealogical research, backed up by census documents available on ancestry.com, how many family members moved back and forth across the river over the years.

    Ancestry.com has some great tools. I was able to document many of her ancestors back to the 1850′s and identify where in Germany they came from. The trail runs cold before that, but I assume that most had lived in those villages for centuries prior to that.

  134. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    And the irony of course, that before the Civil War, it could well be said that the South had produced more significant citizens of note; after all, the South was the wealthiest region in the US prior to the Civil War and for obvious reasons.

    Seems as though the legacy of the War has meant that Dixie just hasn't been able to catch up to the North. Wonder if it ever shall?

    Well, let’s use Murray’s observation from Human Accomplishment:

    In 1850, for example, the White population of the South was 5.6 million, compared to 8.5 million in the Northeast.

    And then take a look at American Literature, 1830-1860:

    Major figures from the North: Hawthorne, Melville, Emerson, Thoreau, Dickinson, Whitman. Those are the figures who would have to included in any kind of reasonable survey class.

    Minor Figures from the North: Holmes, Irving, Cooper, James Russell Lowell, Longfellow, Whittier, Bryant, Margaret Fuller,Stowe, etc

    These are the types who can be excluded from a survey class , but you will usually include a smattering of them.

    Major figures from the South: Poe.That’s it.He’s the only Southerner who has to be included in a standard survey of American Lit in the period 1830-1860.

    Minor Figures: William Gilmore Simms*, Augustus Baldwin Longstreet, George Washington Harris, perhaps a few others, if the judges are in a generous mood.

    All of these authors are even more second tier than their Northern counterparts.Frankly, I’m not sure if any of them would be included in a standard survey, even for flavor.

    As you can see, using population as a kind, the South should have produced more authors of note.The fact that it didn’t indicates that something else is going on…..

    *Poor Simms.Cooper was known as the American Scott, but Simms had to suffer under the indignity of being the Southern Cooper, a moniker that made him doubly provincial.

    • Replies: @peterike
    A good survey, but I would argue that Cooper clearly belongs in the "major" category. He is simply very out of fashion, being a man of now unpopular views. Cooper was quite a lot more than the Leatherstocking Tales. Mark Twain did a number on him with his humorous but wildly wrong-headed "Fenimore Cooper's Literary Offenses" and Cooper never quite recovered. And in any case Cooper likely never wrote anything as completely dreadful as "A Connecticut Yankee." But then I consider Twain over-rated.

    As for the dearth of Southern writers, true enough for that time period. But they made up for lost time in the 20th century.
  135. Mark says:

    As a Indiana native of German extraction, I’ve studied my background some. One theory for the success of the Germans here is that they weren’t typical. Many of the Germans came here in the mid nineteenth century after the failed revolution of 1848. They were anti-monarchy and anti-church because the church supported the German monarchy. They were Menckenish liberal free thinkers who were well educated and had the qualities needed to be successful. There’s lots of local examples. The Dreiser family, for example, not only produced Theodore the writer but also his brother who was a highly successful song writer, e.g. “On the Banks of the Wabash”. The Indianapolis Vonnegut family produced successful business men, architects and finally Kurt Vonnegut. Kurt Vonnegut has pointed out that a lot of midwestern culture like all the big city orchestras originated with the coming of the Germans. We were lucky the Germans came in the nineteenth century because eastern land by then was expensive so they all moved here to the midwest where it was still cheap.

  136. @BubbaJoe
    Please lad, it's Paddy, not "Patty".

    "Both have quality brewing"- no they don't. Guinness is a Protestant beer, as is nearly every major alcoholic beverage of Irish origin (Beamish, Murphy's, Jameson, Smithwick's (Smith-icks), Bushmills, Harp, Jameson. And while we're at it as is early every major industry as well as the banks.) In this regard, the Irish are like the South- they love to drink, but aren't very good at making good drink. Or, rather, are happy to drink and not bother making that which they drink. Regardless, compared to the wide variety of beers you'll find on the continent (Germanic, Belgic, etc.), Irish beers don't hold up too well.

    Again though, please avoid the "Patty".

    In this regard, the Irish are like the South- they love to drink, but aren’t very good at making good drink. Or, rather, are happy to drink and not bother making that which they drink.

    Try telling that to any resident of Bourbon Co., Kentucky… But be sure to bring a helmet.

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/dec/9/english-born-whiskey-critic-says-scotch-out-americ/

  137. @Dave Pinsen
    "4. Territorially reduced by a quarter, absolutely ravished and torn, occupied, humiliated and divided in two, West Germany becomes the economic powerhouse in Europe in the latter half of the 20th Century despite having to pay massive war reparations, providing for the economic and social welfare of much of the citizenry of Israel AND having to stand at the front lines of the Soviet threat."

    West Germany's post-war economic boom was indeed impressive, but its reparations to Israel totaled about $1.5 billion over 14 years. And Germany received a similar amount from the US in Marshall Plan grants. As for standing on the front lines of the Soviet threat, sure, but much of the heavy lifting there was done by US and British troops stationed in Germany.

    West Germany was definitely the big winner of the post-WWII peace. In contrast, Britain, which was on the winning side of the war, didn't fare so well economically post-WWII until it struck oil in the North Sea.

    West Germany’s post-war economic boom was indeed impressive, but its reparations to Israel totaled about $1.5 billion over 14 years. And Germany received a similar amount from the US in Marshall Plan grants.

    Since 1951, (West) Germany’s paid $70 billion in reparations (at modern exchange rates) for victims, well over 50% of which went to Israel, and billions more paid by private German firms. I’m sure we could get the precise numbers somewhere–I just don’t have time. I’ll just give some extended quotes from Nahum Goldmann, a co-signer of the Luxembourg Agreement of 1952:

    There hardly was a precedent for persuading a state to assume moral responsibility and make large-scale compensation for crimes committed against an unorganized ethnic group lacking sovereign status. There was no basis in international law for the collective Jewish claims. …

    What the Luxembourg Agreement meant to Israel is for the historians of the young state to determine. That the goods Israel received from Germany were a decisive economic factor in its development is beyond doubt. I do not know what economic dangers might have threatened Israel at critical moments if it had not been for German supplies. Railways and telephones, dock installations and irrigation plants, whole areas of industry and agriculture, would not be where they are today without the reparations from Germany. And hundreds of thousands of Jewish victims of Nazism have received considerable sums under the law of restitution. …

    Without the German reparations, the State of Israel would not have the half of its present infrastructure: every train in Israel is German, the ships are German, as well as the electricity, a large part of the industry … without mentioning the individual pensions paid to the survivors … In certain years, the amount of money received by Israel from Germany exceeds the total amount of money collected from international Jewry-two or three times as much. …

    It is estimated tthat during the 50′s and early 60′s about one-third of investment goods imported into Israel came from West Germany. Why do people get into such a stink when West Germany’s pivotal role in establishing Israel is discussed?

  138. The success of the Germans relative to their Anglo Saxon neighbors comes as no surprise, but the two groups are not that far apart otherwise. This is a relative study, after all.

    Together, Germans and English are the most successful and American of the ethnic groups in the United States. Many of us are made up pretty much of a combination of the two, including yours truly. I’d say it’s a good mix.

    Someone here said the Irish were more liked than Germans, the implication being that any variation on British Isle origins is more friendly than something from Germany. I disagree. It depends on who you ask. Both are fine, but Germans are preferable if you like a higher level of logic and dependability. They are the world’s Vulcans. Some find that cold, I guess. I find it refreshing, especially when I’m trying to get things done and when the honest truth is important. Clean streets? No surprise. Financial discipline? Of course, and that equals success.

    Just look at the relative success of Germany today, as compared to anything in the British Isles, and you will see another version of Southern Indiana.

    I would add on another note that large numbers of America’s vaunted Jewish people are Germans, as far as I’m concerned. That would be 1/4 of myself included. The worst thing Germany ever did to itself was get rid of its Jewish Germans. America became richer when many came here.

    My comment is so far down the list that I don’t know why I’m even bothering, but this subject rang a personal bell for me.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Together, Germans and English are the most successful and American of the ethnic groups in the United States. Many of us are made up pretty much of a combination of the two

    What about the Scots?
  139. While this book covers 60 years of time which ended 143 years ago, I found that it’s thesis matched essentially the same cultural observations that I was noticing from my teens as a keen observer of cultural idiosyncrasies.

    But he’s not a keen observer of arithmetic. Or the English language.

    I must be in a bad mood.

    Speaking of things German, have you ever noticed that there are no newborn children named Adolph anymore? Why is that?

    • Replies: @keypusher
    Adolf Anderssen's aggressive, gambling style of chess went out of fashion.
    , @Reg Cæsar

    Speaking of things German, have you ever noticed that there are no newborn children named Adolph anymore? Why is that?

     

    Adolph, or Adolphus, has never been in common use in the English-speaking world. Twain used it as a Huck Finn joke. Almost all notable Americans with the name were immigrants or the sons thereof.

    True, the name has almost died out in Europe, but it hangs on in the Spanish- and Portuguese-speaking world. It may still see use in Sweden, where it's associated with Gustavus Adolphus.

    In 2013, a local election in India featured Adolf Lu Hitler Marak challenged by Frankenstein Momin and Billykid Sangma. (Marak had earlier faced Sangmas named Roster and Zenith.)

    Adolph Mongo (b. 1954) is a Detroit political strategist who worked for candidate Geoffrey Fieger, who's better known as Jack Kevorkian's defense attorney and the brother of late Knack frontman Doug.

    Finally, here's an early Obama sighting by Adolph L Reed, Jr:

    In Chicago, for instance, we’ve gotten a foretaste of the new breed of foundation-hatched black communitarian voices; one of them, a smooth Harvard lawyer with impeccable do-good credentials and vacuous-to-repressive neoliberal politics, has won a state senate seat on a base mainly in the liberal foundation and development worlds. His fundamentally bootstrap line was softened by a patina of the rhetoric of authentic community, talk about meeting in kitchens, small-scale solutions to social problems, and the predictable elevation of process over program — the point where identity politics converges with old-fashioned middle-class reform in favoring form over substance. I suspect that his ilk is the wave of the future in U.S. black politics, as in Haiti and wherever else the International Monetary Fund has sway. So far the black activist response hasn’t been up to the challenge. We have to do better.
     
  140. There is no great secret here; work ethic is a core concept of Germanic culture. This ethic is imposed through both positive and negative reinforcements. The negative reinforcement is not through guilt but shame: to be idle doesn’t mean you are doing something bad, it means you are something bad. If you don’t have a job, you are worthless.

    @Cardova
    Germans are not cruel, they are callous. Spaniards are cruel, they practice cruelty for the enjoyment of it. Germans, on the other hand, are rather indifferent to suffering, both their own and that of others. Suffering is an expected part of life. Get used to it – and get your ass back to work, Faulpelz.

  141. Germans were settled all over Eastern Europe by rulers who thought their industriousness would magically rub off on the local population. You might consider them Section 8 in reverse. Catherine the Great settled them in large numbers on the Volga for example. While they did prove to be a source of higher tax revenue, the only thing that seemed to happen to the local population was an increase in jealousy. Their architecture and infrastructure were noticeably superior. The locals noticed. After the war, no one wanted large numbers of Germans in their midst and they were expelled.

    • Replies: @BurplesonAFB

    and they were expelled.
     
    The ones that weren't starved to death or sent to labor camps, yes.
  142. I remember reading Kurt Vonnegut’s collected essays and in one he mentions how grateful he is to be a Midwestern German American since his family could get prosperous without feeling guilt over owning slaves.

    Other than that White America owes alot to Black America for the surprising cohesion that “White Identity” has in the US otherwise we could have seen a fair level of fragmentation among pale, stale males (who are now quickly getting their act together in the UK, Britain’s Obama Chuka just resigned from the Labour leadership contest).

    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk

    "...White America owes a lot to Black America for the surprising cohesion that “White Identity” has in the US otherwise we could have seen a fair level of fragmentation..."
     
    I disagree. White America owes nothing to Black America.

    European Americans have been cohesive for more than two centuries because they have always seen themselves as Citizens of the United States of America. That has meant something to them more important than the ethnic squabbles they left behind in Europe.

    They have always believed in what is unique about America, and in its way of doing things. If they came here later, they joined a winning team they truly wanted to be on, unlike those non-Europeans who come now, and unlike the Africans of any period.

  143. @Enrique Cardova
    BLS says:

    So, here are the observations I noticed over the years. The earliest Scotch-Irish and British (Anglo) settlers had a run of finding land and starting farms in the hill country. Of course that land to this day isn’t much for farming but better for livestock and remains relatively economically challenged. When the Germans came they found some of the best land, even though they were beaten to it by two decades.

    Not necessarily. The actual case may be the opposite. As scholar Thomas Sowell shows (1981, 1983) the Germans actually came along after the Scotch-Irish had the pick of the BEST land. The Germans typically took over less than prime land and worked harder and more thoroughly- laboriously pulling up stumps for example, left behind by the Scotch Irish, and building more barns for livestock rather leave them to the elements- more so than the Scotch-Irish who were sloppier farmers. Germans did not find the best land. They put in greater effort on "second string" land and made it more productive.

    And curiously, the Germans in the US, tended to be more tolerant people- not flaming liberals of their era- far from it- but generally willing to live and let live other people in peace, unlike the white Irish who were always picking fights among themselves and with others. And though German individuals and communities had some diversity of opinion, German Americans overall, on average, were more supportive of the abolition of slavery than the Irish.

    .
    Essentially what I noticed and what is a long murmured joke is that Germans were successful wherever they went and made the area more successful based on the percentage of German majority. Anglo areas struggled and continue to, and both groups are just miles apart.

    Fair enough but then how does genetics explain this? Both groups are white Europeans related closely genetically.

    .
    My hypothesis has been that Germanness matters.
    Sure, a fair minded observer would say you have a point. They can be contrasted against the Scotch-Irish, originating in the more volatile, more violent and disruptive England-Scot-Wales border lands were a large proportion of settlers in the American South, and transplanted that disreputable, lower-end "redneck" culture there and elsewhere, with dire results at certain times and places. They can also be contrasted also against the equally if not more violent and poverty-culture Catholic white Irish. (Sowell 2005- Black Rednecks, White Liberals).

    .
    Ultimately, I suggest that rural development and economic development dollars spent are many times wasted simply because of the ethnic background of the people.. All over Indiana places where German ancestry is a higher percentage of the population the better the money is spent.

    Maybe true in part if as to a specific farming project, but keep in mind that rural and economic development assistance dollars ALSO benefited Germans as well. Rural electrification for example, a great boon, benefited German farmers as well as non German. Econ development dollars are often dollars spent on public goods benefiting large areas, and economies of scale become a necessity. A road running from Germantown into Irish town benefits both areas, and it would be inefficient to stop the road after 6 miles because you were on the outskirts of Germantown.

    Likewise electrification- sometimes it can only pay for itself by scale, millions of subscribers over a large area sharing the costs. Rerouting all power lines around the Italian part of town for example fails to take advantage of economies of scale. With something like electricity even the poor will pay the price for it, using a larger portion of their income- but they will pay the price. In fact dense urban areas where there are more people per square mile, even if poorer, can yield more profits that mo betta, more sparsely settled Germanic areas. A hard-nosed utility manager doing the math may well be seeing more profits where there were LESS Germans, compared to say more densely packed in Irish, for a given area. In such a case those idyllic German neighborhoods may not be so hot after all.


    .
    Dubois continues success with very few move ins but with people cultivated from long family ties. Kids go to college but many come back unlike other dying rural areas where the smart kids move to Indianapolis or out of state.

    Dubois sounds like a nice place and all, but doesn't seen particularly profitable. Packed tenements filled with poor Jews, or Poles in NYC might actually not only be more profitable per square foot or square mile of area, but would eventually post higher incomes and education levels than bucolic Dubois. Nice blond haired kids might be moving back in and all, and that makes for a nice, slower paced suburban/rural "Leave It To Beaver" feel and such, but you notice the place ain't pace-setting Silicon Valley by any means, or bustling, hustling New York where a lot more money is to be made, and a lot more diverse cultural amenities and selections are at hand.

    There is also another side to "Germanness" that you don't mention- which some German writers themselves have criticized. The much commented upon "Teutonic character" with its supposed conformity, robotism, and penchant for the systematic cruelty. Unfair some say. But why should Germans get a pure halo and be exempt from scrutiny when other people are so casually stereotyped? If other groups are to be stereotyped for their supposed "proclivities" then the Germans too, as northern European "role models", must take their place in the dock for their "proclivities" . Christopher Browning's detailed study "Ordinary Men" shows the conformist side and the banal cruelty of the "Teuton" as ordinary cooks, bakers and accountants in the SS police battalions, killed tens of thousands willingly, even zealously, even when they could opt out without penalty. Some even invited their wives and girlfriends to witness the good cleansing work.

    Some might argue that the rebellious, flashy, wild, fiercely independent "Irish model" that settled the south (Scotch-Irish version), and the northern cities (Catholic version) is preferable to conformist, "European Teuton" Germanic types. The identification of the Scotch-Irish with the rugged frontiersman has struck a chord in popular white culture over and above the "Teuton." Re "German character" see Delbruck et al below...

    http://onlinebooks.library.upenn.edu/webbin/book/browse?type=lcsubc&key=National%20characteristics%2C%20German&c=x

    Nice blond haired kids might be moving back in and all, and that makes for a nice, slower paced suburban/rural “Leave It To Beaver” feel and such, but you notice the place ain’t pace-setting Silicon Valley by any means…

    Why should it be?

    But why should Germans get a pure halo and be exempt from scrutiny when other people are so casually stereotyped? If other groups are to be stereotyped for their supposed “proclivities” then the Germans too…

    Yes, the Germans have been getting a pass about their national character for way too long now. This “numinous Teuton” crap that’s permeated popular culture for the last century has got to stop. Why are we so afraid to have an honest conversation about the dark side of Germans?

  144. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Not everything is “science.” That doesn’t mean it’s not worth talking about.

    I think it’s interesting to note that it was once kind of “common knowledge” that Germans were good people to settle the land. There’s probably a reason for that kind of folk wisdom.

    From a biography of an ancestor:

    There has been no element in our American citizenship of more value than that furnished by Germany. The representatives of the Teutonic race have come to America, and, manifesting in different business conditions the same sagacity, enterprise and perseverance that have ever characterized the nationality, they have made for themselves places of prominence in their various communities. Of this class Charles D. Beverson is a representative, and although he came alone to America when a youth of but fourteen years he stands to-day as one of the substantial agriculturists of Santa Clara county, his home being on Milpitas road, and all that he possesses has been acquired through his own labors, well directed energy and capable management.

    Mr. Beverson was born in Bremen, Germany, on the 10th of april, 1850, and is a son of Claudius and Meta (Yerkton) Beverson. The father was a farmer by occupation and thus provided for the necessities of his family which numbered five children, three sons and two daughters. Charles D. Beverson spent his early boyhood days upon his father’s farm, but he realized the necessity of providing for his own support at an early age, and when the necessity of providing for his own support at an early age, and when but a youth of fourteen he bade adieu to friends and native country and sailed for America. He crossed the Atlantic alone and in due course of time landed at New York. Soon afterward, however, he made his way to California by way of the Nicaragua route and settled in Santa Clara county, where he worked on a farm for a few years. Desiring to become the owner of a farm of his own he took up a homestead government claim, comprising one hundred and sixty acres. Since that time he has engaged in general farming and in the raising of cattle and other stock. His place is pleasantly located on the Milpitas road about two miles north of San Jose and here he has continued up to the present time, operating about four thousand acres of land for grazing purposes. On this ranch he has a large herd of cattle and his annual sale of stock brings to him a good income.

    …In his political views Mr. Beverson is a stalwart Republican and keeps well informed on the questions and issues of the day, so that he is enabled to support his position by intelligent argument. He belongs to the Fraternal Brotherhood. He has carefully watched all indications pointing to success in his business career, has made good use of time and opportunities, and, realizing that there is no royal road to wealth, he has worked industriously and unretiringly in the hope of achieving a comfortable competence for the evening of life. Already he is the possessor of a valuable property that ranks him among the substantial citizens of his community.

    Source: History of the New California Its Resources and People, Volume II

  145. @Zachary Latif
    I remember reading Kurt Vonnegut's collected essays and in one he mentions how grateful he is to be a Midwestern German American since his family could get prosperous without feeling guilt over owning slaves.

    Other than that White America owes alot to Black America for the surprising cohesion that "White Identity" has in the US otherwise we could have seen a fair level of fragmentation among pale, stale males (who are now quickly getting their act together in the UK, Britain's Obama Chuka just resigned from the Labour leadership contest).

    “…White America owes a lot to Black America for the surprising cohesion that “White Identity” has in the US otherwise we could have seen a fair level of fragmentation…”

    I disagree. White America owes nothing to Black America.

    European Americans have been cohesive for more than two centuries because they have always seen themselves as Citizens of the United States of America. That has meant something to them more important than the ethnic squabbles they left behind in Europe.

    They have always believed in what is unique about America, and in its way of doing things. If they came here later, they joined a winning team they truly wanted to be on, unlike those non-Europeans who come now, and unlike the Africans of any period.

  146. @Enrique Cardova
    This is the same argument Sowell makes in his Black rednecks, White liberals and in earlier books. The white south is more backward than the white north. Indeed some IQ tests show white Southerners almost one standard deviation below the northerners, with some blacks from various northern states, outperforming southern whites from certain states. (Sowell 1981, 1978 1983, Montagu 1972)

    As Sowell notes re white Southern culture:

    " What the [white] rednecks or crackers brought with them across the ocean was a whole constellation of attitudes, values, and behavior patterns that might have made sense in the world in which they had lived for centuries, but which would prove to be counterproductive in the world to which they were going — and counterproductive to the blacks who would live in their midst for centuries before emerging into freedom and migrating to the great urban centers of the United States, taking with them similar values.

    The cultural values and social patterns prevalent among Southern whites included an aversion to work, proneness to violence, neglect of education, sexual promiscuity, improvidence, drunkenness, lack of entrepreneurship, reckless searches for excitement, a lively music and dance, and a style of religious oratory marked by strident rhetoric, unbridled emotions, and flamboyant imagery... Touchy pride, vanity, and boastful self-dramatization were also part of this redneck culture among people from regions of Britain where the civilization was the least developed."
     

    “Regions of Britain where the civilisation was least developed”

    That statement falls flat on its arse when one peruses the lengthy list of Scottish inventors and Ulster Scots industry. In the 19th century Belfast was a powerhouse of manufactory and production. The legendary Titanic was built at Harland & Wolff shipyard.

  147. Dahlia says:

    Pointing out the differences between Germans and the Scots-Irish and other Celts is like shooting fish in a barrel. Examining the differences between Anglo-Saxon Protestants and Germans would be harder, but much more fun. Also, because northern and southern Germany differ quite a bit, a comparison between Germanic central Europe versus Anglo-Saxons may be more fun still.

    If my German relatives and friends are anything to go by, they don’t give the topic any thought.
    No, it’s all France and the French all the time*. My sister is getting married to a German national in a couple weeks who would be considered a conservative Bavarian. He can’t smile or permit the most innocuous joke when discussing the French, namely what a**holes they are. One of my more liberal relatives on the other hand, brought up within one minute of meeting that ,”Germany and France are getting along well these days.”

    Anyway, I suspect British Anglo-Saxons have probably given the matter more thought than the reverse and I’d be interested in what they say.

    *Slavs, and nowadays the Turks, don’t get thought about the same way: too different. Also, the northerners and southerners compare themselves to each other.

  148. @syonredux

    On a man to man basis, the Germans and the Anglos (genetically distant by 1500 years only) are the most significant human beings of the last 200 years of Modernity. And we demonize success.

     

    Actually, recent studies show that the Germanic invasion of Britain was not quite as demographically overwhelming as some have thought:

    One thousand and five hundred years ago innumerable Germans, Saxons, Angles and Jutes, came to the shores of Britain, and transformed it into England. One thousand and five hundred years ago the trunk of the English language was grafted upon a fundamentally British ethnic root. Post-Roman Britain was subject to a massive migration of Germans in the 6th century, and, the majority of the ancestry of the people of the British Isles derives from the period before the Anglo-Saxon migrations.
     
    Leaving that to one side, here are some interesting figures regarding the inter-relationship between demography and accomplishment:



    Nobel Prize WINNERS:

    Latin America: 15

    Anglo-America (USA plus Canada): 376

    So, Latin America is flatland.And Anglo-America is the Alps.

    Now, let’s look at the sources of American accomplishment:

    As reported in the 2010 census, the major Euro ethnic groups in the USA are:Germans, Irish, English, and Italians.How many Nobel Prize winners have these ethnic groups produced in their places of origin?

    Germany: 102

    Ireland: 10

    England/UK: 115

    Italy:20

    Clearly, the Anglos and the Germans having been doing a lot of heavy lifting.Also, it's pretty clear that having 100 million Hispanic Mestizos and Amerinds in the USA by 2060 is bad news for America.

    Nobel prizes are guaranteed to have heavy bias towards Germany, England and Scandinavia since they’re handed by Swedes. Some of the literature winners still haven’t even been translated out of Swedish and of course literature prizes generally favored Germanic-as-first-language writers. Science Nobels would be a better guide but they too have a lot of Scandinavian and German winners who made minor contributions. The Jewish list of winners would be even more amazing if the prize was actually unbiased.

    Back in the day when Nobel prizes started the Germanic continental sphere was in the middle of several culture wars, one over the recently emancipated Jews who had flooded education, one over those old 19th century “hbd” theories vs the historical lack of development in the north compared to old Mediterranean civilizations and one over Eastern Europe with Russia which made all sorts of (often true) promises of releasing Eastern Europeans from the various regimes that made Germanic peoples privileged over the rest. The Nobels have not been above being used as promotional tools in these culture wars.

    Russia of course did things in reverse and promoted Slavic authors and achievements in the Soviet sphere but communism was a profoundly bad bet so their “prizes” aren’t remembered. You can see the schadenfreude over this in the literature Nobels – Russian giants in the early days were ignored but then Russians started winning when dissidents started writing about what a failure Soviet Russia is…

    • Replies: @syonredux
    The Nobels are not a perfect metric.To cite only one example of odd decision making, the Academy had the opportunity to make either Mark Twain or Henry James the first American recipient of the Lit Nobel, but they passed them over.The first American to win was Sinclair Lewis, a decent enough writer, but not in the same league as Twain and James.


    Still, all caveats aside, Germany and England's high number of Nobel Laureates does seem in line with their tremendous accomplishments in the in the arts and the sciences.Murray, in Human Accomplishment, notes how Britain, France, Germany, and Italy comprise the "Big Four" of European culture.Between 1400 and 1950, those four nations alone account for 72% of all the significant figures produced in Europe between 1400 and 1950 (Murray, 296).
  149. The “Scots-Irish” are mainly from the south of Scotland along the border with England. This area was heavily settled by the various Germanic types who crossed the north sea around a thousand years ago. They are not all like the Irish.

  150. @Thought Police
    Were the Irish less intelligent than other European settlers? It pains me as a native to say this but in all likelihood we/they were. The Germans were of good Jewish / Saxon stock. The English and Scots were upper class / nobility. (founding fathers were all WASPS iirc) The Irish came from small, leased (from those WASPY landlords) plots of land which were adequate (barring any major agricultural disaster that is) for subsistence living. Most were happy to be alive let alone receive an education.

    They were in many respects in the same boat (sometimes literally) as the blacks. I've heard the argument the Irish had it worse, but that's for another time.

    The Germans were of good Jewish / Saxon stock.

    A miniscule percentage were jewish.

    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk

    "A minuscule percentage were jewish."
     
    Let's not forget the often undocumented effects of intermarriage or interbreeding. I bet there was a lot more going on between Jewish and Gentile Germans than just arguing. In fact, I know there was.

    Is it any surprise that two of the agreed-upon smartest peoples are Jewish and German? They cohabitated for centuries. I don't think there is anything coincidental about this.

    , @Thought Police

    A miniscule percentage were jewish.
     
    Not the Nobel winners (while we're counting)
  151. @Big Bill
    Another worthwhile investigation would be Mennonite communities. The Iowa Mennonite School (http://iowamennonite.org) is in the middle of a cornfield in rural Washington County:

    "How We Rank: You may also like to know that our class averages have ranked at the 98th percentile nationally on the Iowa Tests of Educational Development (ITED) with an ACT Composite score of 24.2 while the state average is 22.3. Approximately 90 percent of IMS graduates receive post-high school education or training."
     
    Also investigate German (and Czech) settled towns in Texas, such as Fredericksburg and New Braunfels. I know a woman PK whose father was invited to a Texas hill country church in 1948 because they demanded a German-speaking pastor.

    There are rural areas of Wisconsin settled by colonies of Belgians, of Germans and of Swiss. I wonder what results Chetty would have gotten if he correlated his income data with European ethnicity. Doesn't the Census Bureau provide the US ethnic composition on at least a per-county basis?

    Also investigate German (and Czech) settled towns in Texas, such as Fredericksburg and New Braunfels. I know a woman PK whose father was invited to a Texas hill country church in 1948 because they demanded a German-speaking pastor.

    Would that be a female placekicker or a woman named P.K.? If the latter, would her third initial be a “T”?

    • Replies: @Ivy
    PK = Preacher's Kid

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preacher%27s_kid
     
    If you've met one, you probably remember him or her.
  152. Beat WASPS or beat Scotch-Irish rednecks? Go places like New England or Tidewater to find the real WASPs – not Indiana.

    • Replies: @jack shindo
    Thought New England is the bastion of the WASPs, the common definition appears to be anyone of a white persuasion with the properly fitted suits and takes a daily shower and has the external phenotype of some level of decent breeding, which his rarer today than in the past. Pop culture sells alot of stuff!
  153. @Lurker

    The Germans were of good Jewish / Saxon stock.
     
    A miniscule percentage were jewish.

    “A minuscule percentage were jewish.”

    Let’s not forget the often undocumented effects of intermarriage or interbreeding. I bet there was a lot more going on between Jewish and Gentile Germans than just arguing. In fact, I know there was.

    Is it any surprise that two of the agreed-upon smartest peoples are Jewish and German? They cohabitated for centuries. I don’t think there is anything coincidental about this.

    • Replies: @SPMoore8
    I completely agree. I realize HBD types tend to emphasize genes, as far as that goes, but culture is also extremely important, even within individual families. Regardless of 20th Century history, Germans and Jews have a lot in common.
    , @solontoCroesus
    But -- Italians and Jews cohabited and intermarried, perhaps for even longer than Jews and Germans. The earliest Jew on the Italian peninsula tended to settle in the South -- Godfatherland. Titus is said to have exiled a large population of Jews from Palestine to the area around Apulia.

    Post-expulsion from Spain, Jews settled in large numbers in Italians cities and enrolled in universities such as Padua. Other colonies of Jews migrated from Andalusia to Venice.

    Italians seem to have gone their own way, or no particular way, as the all-important prize statistics show. Perhaps someone could demonstrate how one group has instilled more or less salubrious habits in the other but I don't see it. Italians & Jews do tend to get along better than most other Jews + X groups.

    This 1996 survey of Italian-American voting preferences is insightful: http://www.c-span.org/video/?72233-1/italian-americans-political-force-2

    ---

    My parents migrated to USA in the late 1920s, tho my grandfathers had crossed the ocean numerous times over the earlier decade-and-a-half, finding work in USA, returning to Italy to help with the family farm, then back to USA for hard currency before finally abandoning the farm in Italy and moving the family to USA permanently, a lot like Hispanic migrants today.

    I've learned that the original necessity to migrate was brought about by the success of midwestern USA agriculture (German?) that flooded international markets and eroded prices Italian farmers could get for their crops.

    , @midtown
    I would put a bid in for the native intelligence of Russians as a group. They have a cripplingly corrupt culture, but I admire them for the art, literature, and technological innovations they have come up with in a harsh environment.
  154. @Jaakko Raipala
    Nobel prizes are guaranteed to have heavy bias towards Germany, England and Scandinavia since they're handed by Swedes. Some of the literature winners still haven't even been translated out of Swedish and of course literature prizes generally favored Germanic-as-first-language writers. Science Nobels would be a better guide but they too have a lot of Scandinavian and German winners who made minor contributions. The Jewish list of winners would be even more amazing if the prize was actually unbiased.

    Back in the day when Nobel prizes started the Germanic continental sphere was in the middle of several culture wars, one over the recently emancipated Jews who had flooded education, one over those old 19th century "hbd" theories vs the historical lack of development in the north compared to old Mediterranean civilizations and one over Eastern Europe with Russia which made all sorts of (often true) promises of releasing Eastern Europeans from the various regimes that made Germanic peoples privileged over the rest. The Nobels have not been above being used as promotional tools in these culture wars.

    Russia of course did things in reverse and promoted Slavic authors and achievements in the Soviet sphere but communism was a profoundly bad bet so their "prizes" aren't remembered. You can see the schadenfreude over this in the literature Nobels - Russian giants in the early days were ignored but then Russians started winning when dissidents started writing about what a failure Soviet Russia is...

    The Nobels are not a perfect metric.To cite only one example of odd decision making, the Academy had the opportunity to make either Mark Twain or Henry James the first American recipient of the Lit Nobel, but they passed them over.The first American to win was Sinclair Lewis, a decent enough writer, but not in the same league as Twain and James.

    Still, all caveats aside, Germany and England’s high number of Nobel Laureates does seem in line with their tremendous accomplishments in the in the arts and the sciences.Murray, in Human Accomplishment, notes how Britain, France, Germany, and Italy comprise the “Big Four” of European culture.Between 1400 and 1950, those four nations alone account for 72% of all the significant figures produced in Europe between 1400 and 1950 (Murray, 296).

    • Replies: @SPMoore8
    Hart's "100 Most Influential" book which has spawned others tended to rank Germans and Scots the highest, if I recall correctly. I don't think there's any serious doubt that since the Enlightenment the main contributors to our shared civilization have been British (including Scots, of course), Germans (including German Jews), and France.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_100:_A_Ranking_of_the_Most_Influential_Persons_in_History
  155. @syonredux
    The Nobels are not a perfect metric.To cite only one example of odd decision making, the Academy had the opportunity to make either Mark Twain or Henry James the first American recipient of the Lit Nobel, but they passed them over.The first American to win was Sinclair Lewis, a decent enough writer, but not in the same league as Twain and James.


    Still, all caveats aside, Germany and England's high number of Nobel Laureates does seem in line with their tremendous accomplishments in the in the arts and the sciences.Murray, in Human Accomplishment, notes how Britain, France, Germany, and Italy comprise the "Big Four" of European culture.Between 1400 and 1950, those four nations alone account for 72% of all the significant figures produced in Europe between 1400 and 1950 (Murray, 296).

    Hart’s “100 Most Influential” book which has spawned others tended to rank Germans and Scots the highest, if I recall correctly. I don’t think there’s any serious doubt that since the Enlightenment the main contributors to our shared civilization have been British (including Scots, of course), Germans (including German Jews), and France.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_100:_A_Ranking_of_the_Most_Influential_Persons_in_History

  156. @Buzz Mohawk

    "A minuscule percentage were jewish."
     
    Let's not forget the often undocumented effects of intermarriage or interbreeding. I bet there was a lot more going on between Jewish and Gentile Germans than just arguing. In fact, I know there was.

    Is it any surprise that two of the agreed-upon smartest peoples are Jewish and German? They cohabitated for centuries. I don't think there is anything coincidental about this.

    I completely agree. I realize HBD types tend to emphasize genes, as far as that goes, but culture is also extremely important, even within individual families. Regardless of 20th Century history, Germans and Jews have a lot in common.

    • Replies: @Dahlia
    Speaking only of IQ, I don't believe in coincidences either, but don't know much about how genetically related Germans are to the specifically German Ashkenazim. I think it's very close, but would probably give the nod to centeal European Germanics over the British (but Isaac!). Similarly, I think most would say the German Jews have the edge over the Polish or Russian (please, no flayin'). It's a big wide world and the two smartest, but distinct enough ethnicities happened to have lived together?

    Einstein referred to himself as the Valiant Swabian.

    One problem with Ron's intelligence thesis is the more rural, southern Germans were the smarter ones. But, i don't know. It's curious.
    , @solontoCroesus
    My understanding is that while Jews dwelt among Germans longer, Jews who migrated to Netherlands post-Spanish expulsion achieved greater access to wealth-producing processes, therefore wealth.

    Jews in Netherlands participated in the nascent Dutch East India companies, to which international trade Jews were able to contribute networks of contacts in far-off lands.

    The troubles that erupted between Jews and Germans did not, for the most part, involve German Jews but rather East European Jews who fled Poland, Lithuania, Russia, etc. for the prosperity and safety (and university systems) of Germany post-Franco-Prussian war, when unified Germany became an industrial powerhouse while Poland, for example, was a political and economic backwater.

    Later, East European Jews migrated to security of Germany, fleeing revolution in Russia and turmoil in Poland, Lithuania, etc.

    -=-
    Also worth noting that Israel was established in its nascent days by German Jews educated in Germany and along the lines of German culture & political notions.

    American zionists made a special effort to remove German Jews from Germany, even if they preferred not to leave.

    Hard to avoid noticing that the neocons are, for the most part, not German Jews (Leo Strauss being the exception) but East European Jews, as is the right-wing power structure in Israel.

  157. Without question Germans make best Americans. Who would not prefer moderate beer drinking Germans over excessive whiskey Scots-Irish? It is obvious to even the most casual of observers.

  158. @Buzz Mohawk

    "A minuscule percentage were jewish."
     
    Let's not forget the often undocumented effects of intermarriage or interbreeding. I bet there was a lot more going on between Jewish and Gentile Germans than just arguing. In fact, I know there was.

    Is it any surprise that two of the agreed-upon smartest peoples are Jewish and German? They cohabitated for centuries. I don't think there is anything coincidental about this.

    But — Italians and Jews cohabited and intermarried, perhaps for even longer than Jews and Germans. The earliest Jew on the Italian peninsula tended to settle in the South — Godfatherland. Titus is said to have exiled a large population of Jews from Palestine to the area around Apulia.

    Post-expulsion from Spain, Jews settled in large numbers in Italians cities and enrolled in universities such as Padua. Other colonies of Jews migrated from Andalusia to Venice.

    Italians seem to have gone their own way, or no particular way, as the all-important prize statistics show. Perhaps someone could demonstrate how one group has instilled more or less salubrious habits in the other but I don’t see it. Italians & Jews do tend to get along better than most other Jews + X groups.

    This 1996 survey of Italian-American voting preferences is insightful: http://www.c-span.org/video/?72233-1/italian-americans-political-force-2

    My parents migrated to USA in the late 1920s, tho my grandfathers had crossed the ocean numerous times over the earlier decade-and-a-half, finding work in USA, returning to Italy to help with the family farm, then back to USA for hard currency before finally abandoning the farm in Italy and moving the family to USA permanently, a lot like Hispanic migrants today.

    I’ve learned that the original necessity to migrate was brought about by the success of midwestern USA agriculture (German?) that flooded international markets and eroded prices Italian farmers could get for their crops.

  159. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    All of the observations noted by Reader BLS about Dubois County are in clear evidence in with regard to the Volksdeutsche in Central and Eastern Europe, and are often noted in positive terms.

    Hungarians often comment on how so-and-so is well-off because he is a hard working, uncomplaining Schwab (ie German ancestry.)

    I once spoke to a Bohemian German who had spent his whole life in a tiny German enclave in the hilly Carpathian hinterlands of Romania.

    I asked him what life was like in that village. He replied it was hard, but good. “We didn’t have much, but we had each other and we had work.”

    I asked him, “Any Romanians in the village?”

    He laughed and informed me that other than the entirely unnecessary and useless village constable, there were no Romanians in his village because if you lived in that village you had to work, and everyone knows that Romanians don’t like hard work.

    Even today, historically ethnic German villages still stand out in terms of cleanliness, safety, tight social cohesion in places like Serbia, Romania, and even Hungary and Croatia.

    It is interesting to note that the German diaspora in Central/Eastern Europe was of 3 waves over a 150 years or so, and was made up of various sub-groups ie Saxons, Bohemians, Schwabs etc etc although the Hungarians, for example, informally lump all German-Hungarians into the Schwab category and refer to them as such.

    (This is because the boats/rafts carrying these folks down the Danube, initiated their journey in Ulm.)

  160. @hbd chick
    "And the Irish nobel winners will be mainly anglo transplants."

    yes, i think that's probably correct (altho i don't know for sure). see halfway down this post of mine: what's in a name?

    (^_^)

    The only science winner, Ernest Walton, was Anglo.

  161. the Germans actually came along after the Scotch-Irish had the pick of the BEST land. The Germans typically took over less than prime land and worked harder and more thoroughly- laboriously pulling up stumps for example, left behind by the Scotch Irish, and building more barns for livestock rather leave them to the elements- more so than the Scotch-Irish who were sloppier farmers. Germans did not find the best land.

    It’s not true that the Germans came later. In some places, yes, but in others such as Bucks and Northampton , Pennyslvania, the Germans and English took the best land before the Scotch-Irish arrived. In many places – particularly PA – Lutheran Germans and Scotch-Irish arrived at roughly the same time.

    Anyway, according to James Leyburn the Scotch-Irish often didn’t take up land in limestone regions leaving them to the Germans even though they were good for farming. The Scotch-Irish preferred slate hills. Daniel Rupp believed they might have chosen hills and rolling countryside because they were familiar with them from Ireland and possibly because such land reminded them of home.

    Steve Sailer: The pacifist Quakers of Pennsylvania recruited Scots-Irish to settle the frontier and do what needed to be done.

    It didn’t stop those same Quakers and the Germans who benefitted from moralising about how horrible the Scotch-Irish were for doing “what needed to be done”. Maybe Quakers and Germans are responsible for some of the liberalism of today.

  162. @BubbaJoe
    In fairness, Sean MacBride was an impressive man. Still only half-green though. There have been a few American/Australian nobel winners of green Irish extraction; Peter Doherty (AUS), John O'Keefe, Joseph Murray (half Italian). You mention Callan in your linked post- a rare sighting in Physics. There were a few lights in Chemistry and, again, medicine from Ireland that did well on the continent in the past. But, on the whole, it doesn't so look so impressive.

    The native Irish were much poorer and were tenant farmers. The main outlet for any sort of intellectual activity was a very conservative Catholic Church.

  163. Dahlia says:
    @SPMoore8
    I completely agree. I realize HBD types tend to emphasize genes, as far as that goes, but culture is also extremely important, even within individual families. Regardless of 20th Century history, Germans and Jews have a lot in common.

    Speaking only of IQ, I don’t believe in coincidences either, but don’t know much about how genetically related Germans are to the specifically German Ashkenazim. I think it’s very close, but would probably give the nod to centeal European Germanics over the British (but Isaac!). Similarly, I think most would say the German Jews have the edge over the Polish or Russian (please, no flayin’). It’s a big wide world and the two smartest, but distinct enough ethnicities happened to have lived together?

    Einstein referred to himself as the Valiant Swabian.

    One problem with Ron’s intelligence thesis is the more rural, southern Germans were the smarter ones. But, i don’t know. It’s curious.

  164. @Jefferson
    Why is St. Patrick's Day more widely celebrated in the U.S than Oktoberfest? When German Americans outnumber Irish Americans.

    In the 21st Century does German culture and traditions still get a bad rep in the U.S because of World War 2? Just because you celebrate Oktoberfest, it does not automatically mean you worship Adolf Hitler.

    St. Patrick’s Day had been celebrated as a serious, nationwide, religious day in Ireland for centuries prior to the mass waves of immigration. Oktoberfest is a Festival specific to Bavaria that first occurred in 1810. So just on that point alone I don’t think it is a very fair comparison. Add to that the fact Ireland was a united (other than the North) country with a uniform religion whose immigrants came her en mass during a relatively narrow window of time. German immigration to America peaked in the mid to late 1800′s but had been steady since even before the foundation of the United States and there were millions of Germans already here when those huge waves were arriving.

    Germans are the reason we have Christmas trees. Germans are the reason Halloween is celebrated the way it is in America (despite it actually being an Irish Holiday). There is no shortage of German impact on the cultural landscape of America. Unlike the Irish, Germans have been here in large numbers since the beginning and by the 20th Century were the largest genetic subgroup in America. That is probably why the Germans never felt the need for any overt “Old World” nationalistic displays.

  165. @SPMoore8
    I completely agree. I realize HBD types tend to emphasize genes, as far as that goes, but culture is also extremely important, even within individual families. Regardless of 20th Century history, Germans and Jews have a lot in common.

    My understanding is that while Jews dwelt among Germans longer, Jews who migrated to Netherlands post-Spanish expulsion achieved greater access to wealth-producing processes, therefore wealth.

    Jews in Netherlands participated in the nascent Dutch East India companies, to which international trade Jews were able to contribute networks of contacts in far-off lands.

    The troubles that erupted between Jews and Germans did not, for the most part, involve German Jews but rather East European Jews who fled Poland, Lithuania, Russia, etc. for the prosperity and safety (and university systems) of Germany post-Franco-Prussian war, when unified Germany became an industrial powerhouse while Poland, for example, was a political and economic backwater.

    Later, East European Jews migrated to security of Germany, fleeing revolution in Russia and turmoil in Poland, Lithuania, etc.

    -=-
    Also worth noting that Israel was established in its nascent days by German Jews educated in Germany and along the lines of German culture & political notions.

    American zionists made a special effort to remove German Jews from Germany, even if they preferred not to leave.

    Hard to avoid noticing that the neocons are, for the most part, not German Jews (Leo Strauss being the exception) but East European Jews, as is the right-wing power structure in Israel.

    • Replies: @keypusher
    I guess you don't mean the troubles that erupted in, say, 1050 or so?
  166. In What Hath God Wrought, Daniel Walker Howe briefly addressed the encounter between Yankees and “Butternuts” in southern Ohio. p. 139:

    “Yankees believed in public education; Butternuts, in individualism and low taxes. Yankees thought the Butternuts lazy; the latter resented Yankee condescension…. Southerners believed the ‘Yankee was a close, miserly, dishonest, selfish getter of money, void of generosity, hospitality, or any of the kindlier feelings of human nature; northerners saw the Butternut as ‘a long, lank, lean and ignorant animal, but little in advance of the savage state; one who was content to squat in a log-cabin, with a large family of ill-fed and ill-clothed, idle, ignorant children.”

    https://books.google.com/books?id=0XIvPDF9ijcC&pg=PA138&lpg=PA138

    http://librarun.org/book/35533/179

    The contrast between Scots-Irish and Germans is obvious and clear. But the Yankees and Germans were a bit more compatible, at least until WWI and Prohibition. So apparently Germans and Yankees settled in the same or similar places?

    https://jaymans.wordpress.com/2013/12/29/colors-and-lights/

    In the Upper Midwest, the distance between Yankeeland, the Midlands and Greater Appalachia is not far at all.

    Razib has posted a lot on this:

    http://www.unz.com/gnxp/the-genetics-of-american-settlers-vs-immigrants/

    “Finally, the states of the old Yankee Empire of the northern Old Northwest have been totally demographically transformed by the massive waves of migration from Germany and Scandinavia.”

    http://www.unz.com/gnxp/are-genes-the-key-to-the-yankee-empire/

    By the time of Andrew Jackson an ascendant Democrat configuration which aligned Southern uplanders and lowlanders with elements of the Middle Atlantic resistant to Yankee cultural pretension and demographic expansion would coalesce and dominate American politics down to the Civil War. It is illustrative that one of the prominent Northern figures in this alliance, President Martin Van Buren, was of Dutch New York background.

    But this is a case where demographics was ultimate destiny. Not only were the Yankees fecund, but immigrants such as the German liberals fleeing the failures of the tumult of 1848 (e.g., Carl Schurz) were aligned with their anti-slavery enthusiasms (though they often took umbrage at the anti-alcohol stance of the Puritan moralists of the age, familiarizing the nation with beer in the 1840s). The Southern political ascendancy was simply not tenable in the face of Northern demographic robustness, fueled by both fertility and immigration.

    http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/umhtml/umessay6.html

    Early migration to Michigan, Wisconsin and Minnesota from the east came disproportionately from New England and New York. That pattern was mightily reinforced by the opening of the Erie Canal in 1825, which funneled Yankees and ex-Yankees from New York into the southern portions of the Upper Midwest. Each state in turn for a time dubbed itself “the New England of the West.” Yankees soon became a minority, but they long continued to sit atop economic and political hierarchies and to set the general tone. Yankee hegemony was evident in countless ways. The many varieties of New England-based Protestantism were seen as nondenominational, whereas Lutherans and Catholics were seen as sectarian. New England-style blue laws kept the Sabbath holy. The Grand Army of the Republic was an organization of Yankee Civil War veterans. For most of the nineteenth century, under this Yankee dominance, a mostly rural population eagerly went about the business of developing the transportation and banking systems that would allow the region to realize its thoroughly commercial ambitions.

    From the outset, immigration was actively and even officially promoted in the Upper Midwest. Immigrants flooded in; for example, by 1880, 71% of Minnesota’s population was either foreign-born or the children of foreign-born parents. Wisconsin was a magnet for German immigrants in particular. German influence was especially strong in Milwaukee, so much so that politics there had its own, often socialist, flavor. Islands and even small regions of immigrant settlement were, in effect, ethnic colonies, often promoting their particular religious and educational institutions in the name of preserving ethnic traditions. All three states were dotted with small, usually short-lived intentional communities pursuing utopian goals.

    The new Republican party originated in the Upper Midwest in the 1850s, and the region remained a center of Republican power for most of the rest of the nineteenth century. Politics in the area adopted a moralistic tone, advocating strong antislavery sentiments if not initiatives to expand black rights. The Republicans always ruled by means of coalitions with immigrant populations, and so anti-immigrant nativism was seldom strident.

    Finally, how can we not bring in the Mormons for comparison, discussed in 2008 by Razib and Steve:

    http://www.unz.com/gnxp/different-american-conservatisms-mormons-and-southerners/

    American Mormonism began as a religion of Greater New England. First in upstate New York, and later in northern Ohio. Its relocation to the Midwest was problematic for a host of reasons, but the fact that they were often neighbors of people whose origins were in the South and they were quite clearly Yankees probably exacerbated tensions.

    http://www.unz.com/isteve/mormons-as-conservative-new-england/

    In general, Mormonism functions as a sort of Swedish welfare state without the state for church members.

    • Replies: @Jeff W.
    To understand an ethnic group's "personality" or behavior, it is not only useful to look at their historical experiences, but also the experiences they have not had.

    The way my Irish wife like to keep the refrigerator jammed with food makes me think that she is worried about a return engagement of the Potato Famine. We Scots-Irish have no comparable historical experience of famines. Unlike the Germans we have never lived in overpopulated areas where the surrounding farmland in bad harvest years did not produce enough to feed all the people.

    We also, unlike the Germans and the English, have no historical experience of being serfs. I personally don't know how to behave as a serf. We have always been free people. This lack of experience of serfdom is maladaptive today, in a world where big corporations want their employees very serflike.

    So when you look at the Butternuts of southern Ohio, you are looking at people who were
    not particularly worried about food shortages, who had always been free people, and were not particularly concerned about what others thought of them. They did as they pleased and they tried to enjoy their lives.

    Different historical experiences rather than genetic differences make the difference.
  167. For more ethnic achievement confirmation, here are Murray’s top five rankings (Human Accomplishment, 122-142) in sundry fields:

    Astronomy:

    Galileo: Italian

    Kepler: German

    W.Herschel: German

    Laplace: French

    Copernicus: Polish

    Biology:

    Darwin: English

    Aristotle: Greek

    Lamarck: French

    Cuvier: French

    Morgan: Anglo-American

    Chemistry:

    Lavoisier: French

    Berzelius: Swedish

    Scheele: Swedish-Pomeranian

    Davy: English

    Earth Sciences:

    Lyell: Scots

    Hutton: Scots

    W.Smith: English

    Agricola: German

    Werner: German

    Physics:

    Newton: English

    Einstein: Ashkenazi Jewish

    Rutherford: Anglo-New Zealander

    Faraday: English

    Galileo: Italian

    Mathematics:

    Euler: Swiss

    Newton: English

    Euclid: Greek

    Gauss: German

    Fermat: French

    Medicine:

    Pasteur: French

    Hippocrates: Greek

    Koch: German

    Galen: Greek

    Paracelsus: Swiss

    Technology:

    Watt: Scots

    Edison: Anglo-American

    Leonardo: Italian

    Huygens: Dutch

    Archimedes: Greek

    Western Philosophy:

    Aristotle: Greek

    Plato: Greek

    Kant: German

    Descartes: Frech

    Hegel: German

    WEstern Music:

    Beethoven: German

    Mozart: German

    JS Bach: German

    Wagner: German

    Haydn: German

    WEstern Painting:

    Michelangelo: Italian

    Picasso: Spanish

    Raphael: Italian

    Leonardo: Italian

    Titian: Italian

    Western Literature:

    Shakespeare: English

    Goethe: German

    Dante: Italian

    Virgil: Italian/Roman

    Homer: Greek (yeah, might have been more than one person)

  168. @pinto


    A lot of the Scots-Irish pass themselves off as WASPS. They are WASPS in a technical sense. Anyway … they definitely wanted to distinguish themselves from hillbillies.
     
    Are they technically WASPS?

    I mean Anglo or Saxon. I bet neither.

    They are celts.

    Are they technically WASPS?

    I mean Anglo or Saxon. I bet neither.

    They aren’t “WASPs” in the contemporary sense of that term. However, a significant portion of the original Scots-Irish were neither Scottish nor Irish; they were English living in the area between the Midlands and Scotland proper. In terms of language, folkways, etc., they had more in common with the English than with the Gaelic Scottish highlanders and the Catholic Irish. See Jim Webb’s Born Fighting and David Hackett Fischer’s Albion’s Seed.

    IMO, the Scots-Irish are most appropriately thought of as “frontier Anglos” stemming from the northern end of an English cultural continuum with the more stereotypical Anglo-Saxons at the opposite, southern end.

    On a similar note, a lot of Americans who self-identify as Irish, particularly those who aren’t Catholic, are most likely of English descent, too. They’re only Irish in the sense that their ancestors moved from Britain to Ireland first before immigrating to North America.

    They are celts.

    So are a lot of the English if you go back far enough.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Wouldn't Sir Walter Scott's novels have referred to the ancestors of American Scots-Irish as "Saxons" in contrast to Celtic Highlanders?
    , @athEIst
    They’re only Irish in the sense that their ancestors moved from Britain to Ireland first before immigrating to North America.
    The Scots who had been implanted in Ulster (1605)thrived on oats and milk.
    Cromwell gave his veterans land in Munster and Leinster. They insisted on living on bread and cheese. Wheat doesn't grow well in Ireland and you lose half the food value of milk if you make it all into cheese. They failed and went back to England or to North America.
    The Irish who had been pushed into Connaugh were meant to starve but discovered the potato and eventually recolonized Munster and Leinster.
  169. Yes…but what about the Holocaust?

  170. Scheele was German, and so was Copernicus. I mean, going by family history there was some West Slavic ancestry in there, but in normal terms (general culture, vernacular spoken) they were both Germans.

    I am not trying to promote the #Germanexcellence hashtag, just saying.

    The interesting thing about the musicians is that Mozart was routinely referred to as “German” in the old days (pre-WW1), especially since his father came from Germany, while Haydn was referred to as “Austrian”, which suggested his mix (he was part South Slavic). It didn’t have to do with ethnicity as such, since, e.g., Schubert was also “German” even though I don’t think he ever left the boundaries of present day Austria.

    The Italian contribution is strong, but note how most of it is centuries old: that means there’s more than genes going on here, there’s also culture and chronology.

    Homer was probably a composite compiled in the 7th C. BC but no one can prove it either way. It’s interesting that rhapsodes stitched together different narratives set to music; the potential tie in between this and “rap music” is something to think about.

    • Replies: @Kylie

    I am not trying to promote the #Germanexcellence hashtag, just saying.

    The interesting thing about the musicians is that Mozart was routinely referred to as “German” in the old days (pre-WW1), especially since his father came from Germany, while Haydn was referred to as “Austrian”, which suggested his mix (he was part South Slavic). It didn’t have to do with ethnicity as such, since, e.g., Schubert was also “German” even though I don’t think he ever left the boundaries of present day Austria.
     

    In contemporary accounts, Schubert is often referred to as "Viennese" . His father was Moravia, his mother Silesian; he was born in a suburb of Vienna. (He did venture to Hungary twice but otherwise traveled only in Austria.)

    Two of his friends of Austrian ancestry, Kupelwieser and Schober, both referred to themselves and their circle as "German".

    Schober writes, "And are not we precisely those who have found our life in art, while the others only found entertainment in it--those who alone and with certainty understood ourselves, as only Germans can understand?"

    With regard to this statement, Otto Erich Deutsch notes that "If the Austrians, to whom Schober belonged, in spite of his Swedish birth, called themselves Germans, this had no political but only a racial significance, connected with the common language."

  171. OT: Chuka Umunna, the British Obama, has hurriedly withdrawn from the Labour leadership race (in which the bookies had him down as favourite), allegedly because he fears certain information concerning his sexuality is about to become public.

  172. Germans have a communitarian culture that emphasizes the common good over individual economic success, an approach that tends to make more individuals successful as well. In Thomas Sowell’s book “Ethnic America”, he cites an old story comparing the qualities of the English, Scots-Irish and Germans:
    “The first thing an Englishman builds on his land is a house; the first thing a German builds is a barn; the first thinga Scots-Irishman buils is a whiskey still.”

  173. @AshTon
    So what's the best ethnic group to be surrounded by in the US, if you want a high-level of civilised life? Germans? My guess would be Dutch or Scandinavian. And the further west the better, since they are likely to be more go-getters.

    Here, here! My Dutch and Norwegian grandparents would heartily agree.

  174. @ChaseBizzy
    The Athenaeum building here in Indianapolis was known as Das Deutsche Haus until the outbreak of WWI for example. Anti-German sentiment was incredibly strong and many German Americans made a conscious effort to essentially become generic Americans if they hadn't already. It was one of those remarkably significant sociological occurrences in U.S. history that have essentially been forgotten.

    In addition, several states in the early 20th century made the teaching of German in schools illegal. The Germans, being law-abiding, obeyed and the German language faded out in America.

  175. @Enrique Cardova
    BLS says:

    So, here are the observations I noticed over the years. The earliest Scotch-Irish and British (Anglo) settlers had a run of finding land and starting farms in the hill country. Of course that land to this day isn’t much for farming but better for livestock and remains relatively economically challenged. When the Germans came they found some of the best land, even though they were beaten to it by two decades.

    Not necessarily. The actual case may be the opposite. As scholar Thomas Sowell shows (1981, 1983) the Germans actually came along after the Scotch-Irish had the pick of the BEST land. The Germans typically took over less than prime land and worked harder and more thoroughly- laboriously pulling up stumps for example, left behind by the Scotch Irish, and building more barns for livestock rather leave them to the elements- more so than the Scotch-Irish who were sloppier farmers. Germans did not find the best land. They put in greater effort on "second string" land and made it more productive.

    And curiously, the Germans in the US, tended to be more tolerant people- not flaming liberals of their era- far from it- but generally willing to live and let live other people in peace, unlike the white Irish who were always picking fights among themselves and with others. And though German individuals and communities had some diversity of opinion, German Americans overall, on average, were more supportive of the abolition of slavery than the Irish.

    .
    Essentially what I noticed and what is a long murmured joke is that Germans were successful wherever they went and made the area more successful based on the percentage of German majority. Anglo areas struggled and continue to, and both groups are just miles apart.

    Fair enough but then how does genetics explain this? Both groups are white Europeans related closely genetically.

    .
    My hypothesis has been that Germanness matters.
    Sure, a fair minded observer would say you have a point. They can be contrasted against the Scotch-Irish, originating in the more volatile, more violent and disruptive England-Scot-Wales border lands were a large proportion of settlers in the American South, and transplanted that disreputable, lower-end "redneck" culture there and elsewhere, with dire results at certain times and places. They can also be contrasted also against the equally if not more violent and poverty-culture Catholic white Irish. (Sowell 2005- Black Rednecks, White Liberals).

    .
    Ultimately, I suggest that rural development and economic development dollars spent are many times wasted simply because of the ethnic background of the people.. All over Indiana places where German ancestry is a higher percentage of the population the better the money is spent.

    Maybe true in part if as to a specific farming project, but keep in mind that rural and economic development assistance dollars ALSO benefited Germans as well. Rural electrification for example, a great boon, benefited German farmers as well as non German. Econ development dollars are often dollars spent on public goods benefiting large areas, and economies of scale become a necessity. A road running from Germantown into Irish town benefits both areas, and it would be inefficient to stop the road after 6 miles because you were on the outskirts of Germantown.

    Likewise electrification- sometimes it can only pay for itself by scale, millions of subscribers over a large area sharing the costs. Rerouting all power lines around the Italian part of town for example fails to take advantage of economies of scale. With something like electricity even the poor will pay the price for it, using a larger portion of their income- but they will pay the price. In fact dense urban areas where there are more people per square mile, even if poorer, can yield more profits that mo betta, more sparsely settled Germanic areas. A hard-nosed utility manager doing the math may well be seeing more profits where there were LESS Germans, compared to say more densely packed in Irish, for a given area. In such a case those idyllic German neighborhoods may not be so hot after all.


    .
    Dubois continues success with very few move ins but with people cultivated from long family ties. Kids go to college but many come back unlike other dying rural areas where the smart kids move to Indianapolis or out of state.

    Dubois sounds like a nice place and all, but doesn't seen particularly profitable. Packed tenements filled with poor Jews, or Poles in NYC might actually not only be more profitable per square foot or square mile of area, but would eventually post higher incomes and education levels than bucolic Dubois. Nice blond haired kids might be moving back in and all, and that makes for a nice, slower paced suburban/rural "Leave It To Beaver" feel and such, but you notice the place ain't pace-setting Silicon Valley by any means, or bustling, hustling New York where a lot more money is to be made, and a lot more diverse cultural amenities and selections are at hand.

    There is also another side to "Germanness" that you don't mention- which some German writers themselves have criticized. The much commented upon "Teutonic character" with its supposed conformity, robotism, and penchant for the systematic cruelty. Unfair some say. But why should Germans get a pure halo and be exempt from scrutiny when other people are so casually stereotyped? If other groups are to be stereotyped for their supposed "proclivities" then the Germans too, as northern European "role models", must take their place in the dock for their "proclivities" . Christopher Browning's detailed study "Ordinary Men" shows the conformist side and the banal cruelty of the "Teuton" as ordinary cooks, bakers and accountants in the SS police battalions, killed tens of thousands willingly, even zealously, even when they could opt out without penalty. Some even invited their wives and girlfriends to witness the good cleansing work.

    Some might argue that the rebellious, flashy, wild, fiercely independent "Irish model" that settled the south (Scotch-Irish version), and the northern cities (Catholic version) is preferable to conformist, "European Teuton" Germanic types. The identification of the Scotch-Irish with the rugged frontiersman has struck a chord in popular white culture over and above the "Teuton." Re "German character" see Delbruck et al below...

    http://onlinebooks.library.upenn.edu/webbin/book/browse?type=lcsubc&key=National%20characteristics%2C%20German&c=x

    I dunno–there were a good collection of refugees from the German revolution of 1848, including in the Texas hill country. They formed the backbone of a lot of Socialist local governments, such as Milwaukee.

    • Replies: @Desiderius

    I dunno–there were a good collection of refugees from the German revolution of 1848, including in the Texas hill country. They formed the backbone of a lot of Socialist local governments, such as Milwaukee.
     
    Yeah, my father's ancestors came not long after that, and some ended up in prison for their union-organizing efforts near Matewan, WV. None of us are much for socialism these days, including the political branch of the family, which was hardcore GOP when that wasn't very popular in WV. From what I hear, the Laura Bush administration softened that core considerably.
  176. @Enrique Cardova
    This is the same argument Sowell makes in his Black rednecks, White liberals and in earlier books. The white south is more backward than the white north. Indeed some IQ tests show white Southerners almost one standard deviation below the northerners, with some blacks from various northern states, outperforming southern whites from certain states. (Sowell 1981, 1978 1983, Montagu 1972)

    As Sowell notes re white Southern culture:

    " What the [white] rednecks or crackers brought with them across the ocean was a whole constellation of attitudes, values, and behavior patterns that might have made sense in the world in which they had lived for centuries, but which would prove to be counterproductive in the world to which they were going — and counterproductive to the blacks who would live in their midst for centuries before emerging into freedom and migrating to the great urban centers of the United States, taking with them similar values.

    The cultural values and social patterns prevalent among Southern whites included an aversion to work, proneness to violence, neglect of education, sexual promiscuity, improvidence, drunkenness, lack of entrepreneurship, reckless searches for excitement, a lively music and dance, and a style of religious oratory marked by strident rhetoric, unbridled emotions, and flamboyant imagery... Touchy pride, vanity, and boastful self-dramatization were also part of this redneck culture among people from regions of Britain where the civilization was the least developed."
     

    So blacks are really just dark skinned hillbillies? Really? Could have fooled me!

    Amazing how the Scots-Irish could hold on to those bad habits for generations, yet blacks brought no bad habits with them to the Americas. Sorry, got to call bullshit on that one!

    • Replies: @Rob McX
    Yes, it's interesting how many people are so eager to trace the faults of various white groups back to Ireland or Italy or wherever, but how seldom they look at Africa when trying to make sense of American blacks' behaviour.
  177. @pinto


    A lot of the Scots-Irish pass themselves off as WASPS. They are WASPS in a technical sense. Anyway … they definitely wanted to distinguish themselves from hillbillies.
     
    Are they technically WASPS?

    I mean Anglo or Saxon. I bet neither.

    They are celts.

    Why not? A lot of those that fancy themselves WASPs are more Anglo-Norman than Anglo-Saxon.

  178. @SFG
    "Fair enough but then how does genetics explain this? Both groups are white Europeans related closely genetically."

    Groups that start out the same can diverge over time due to selective pressures. Do you think Scandinavians have the same propensity for violence they had during Viking times?

    They’re pretty good at Counter-Strike.

  179. @Enrique Cardova
    BLS says:

    So, here are the observations I noticed over the years. The earliest Scotch-Irish and British (Anglo) settlers had a run of finding land and starting farms in the hill country. Of course that land to this day isn’t much for farming but better for livestock and remains relatively economically challenged. When the Germans came they found some of the best land, even though they were beaten to it by two decades.

    Not necessarily. The actual case may be the opposite. As scholar Thomas Sowell shows (1981, 1983) the Germans actually came along after the Scotch-Irish had the pick of the BEST land. The Germans typically took over less than prime land and worked harder and more thoroughly- laboriously pulling up stumps for example, left behind by the Scotch Irish, and building more barns for livestock rather leave them to the elements- more so than the Scotch-Irish who were sloppier farmers. Germans did not find the best land. They put in greater effort on "second string" land and made it more productive.

    And curiously, the Germans in the US, tended to be more tolerant people- not flaming liberals of their era- far from it- but generally willing to live and let live other people in peace, unlike the white Irish who were always picking fights among themselves and with others. And though German individuals and communities had some diversity of opinion, German Americans overall, on average, were more supportive of the abolition of slavery than the Irish.

    .
    Essentially what I noticed and what is a long murmured joke is that Germans were successful wherever they went and made the area more successful based on the percentage of German majority. Anglo areas struggled and continue to, and both groups are just miles apart.

    Fair enough but then how does genetics explain this? Both groups are white Europeans related closely genetically.

    .
    My hypothesis has been that Germanness matters.
    Sure, a fair minded observer would say you have a point. They can be contrasted against the Scotch-Irish, originating in the more volatile, more violent and disruptive England-Scot-Wales border lands were a large proportion of settlers in the American South, and transplanted that disreputable, lower-end "redneck" culture there and elsewhere, with dire results at certain times and places. They can also be contrasted also against the equally if not more violent and poverty-culture Catholic white Irish. (Sowell 2005- Black Rednecks, White Liberals).

    .
    Ultimately, I suggest that rural development and economic development dollars spent are many times wasted simply because of the ethnic background of the people.. All over Indiana places where German ancestry is a higher percentage of the population the better the money is spent.

    Maybe true in part if as to a specific farming project, but keep in mind that rural and economic development assistance dollars ALSO benefited Germans as well. Rural electrification for example, a great boon, benefited German farmers as well as non German. Econ development dollars are often dollars spent on public goods benefiting large areas, and economies of scale become a necessity. A road running from Germantown into Irish town benefits both areas, and it would be inefficient to stop the road after 6 miles because you were on the outskirts of Germantown.

    Likewise electrification- sometimes it can only pay for itself by scale, millions of subscribers over a large area sharing the costs. Rerouting all power lines around the Italian part of town for example fails to take advantage of economies of scale. With something like electricity even the poor will pay the price for it, using a larger portion of their income- but they will pay the price. In fact dense urban areas where there are more people per square mile, even if poorer, can yield more profits that mo betta, more sparsely settled Germanic areas. A hard-nosed utility manager doing the math may well be seeing more profits where there were LESS Germans, compared to say more densely packed in Irish, for a given area. In such a case those idyllic German neighborhoods may not be so hot after all.


    .
    Dubois continues success with very few move ins but with people cultivated from long family ties. Kids go to college but many come back unlike other dying rural areas where the smart kids move to Indianapolis or out of state.

    Dubois sounds like a nice place and all, but doesn't seen particularly profitable. Packed tenements filled with poor Jews, or Poles in NYC might actually not only be more profitable per square foot or square mile of area, but would eventually post higher incomes and education levels than bucolic Dubois. Nice blond haired kids might be moving back in and all, and that makes for a nice, slower paced suburban/rural "Leave It To Beaver" feel and such, but you notice the place ain't pace-setting Silicon Valley by any means, or bustling, hustling New York where a lot more money is to be made, and a lot more diverse cultural amenities and selections are at hand.

    There is also another side to "Germanness" that you don't mention- which some German writers themselves have criticized. The much commented upon "Teutonic character" with its supposed conformity, robotism, and penchant for the systematic cruelty. Unfair some say. But why should Germans get a pure halo and be exempt from scrutiny when other people are so casually stereotyped? If other groups are to be stereotyped for their supposed "proclivities" then the Germans too, as northern European "role models", must take their place in the dock for their "proclivities" . Christopher Browning's detailed study "Ordinary Men" shows the conformist side and the banal cruelty of the "Teuton" as ordinary cooks, bakers and accountants in the SS police battalions, killed tens of thousands willingly, even zealously, even when they could opt out without penalty. Some even invited their wives and girlfriends to witness the good cleansing work.

    Some might argue that the rebellious, flashy, wild, fiercely independent "Irish model" that settled the south (Scotch-Irish version), and the northern cities (Catholic version) is preferable to conformist, "European Teuton" Germanic types. The identification of the Scotch-Irish with the rugged frontiersman has struck a chord in popular white culture over and above the "Teuton." Re "German character" see Delbruck et al below...

    http://onlinebooks.library.upenn.edu/webbin/book/browse?type=lcsubc&key=National%20characteristics%2C%20German&c=x

    And curiously, the Germans in the US, tended to be more tolerant people- not flaming liberals of their era- far from it- but generally willing to live and let live other people in peace, unlike the white Irish who were always picking fights among themselves and with others.

    Which is I guess why the KKK was so popular with the citizens of the Great Midwestern Teutonic Whiteopia during the 1920′s?

    The second Klan emerged during the nadir of American race relations, but of its growth was primarily in response to new issues such as urbanization, immigration and industrialization. The massive immigration of Catholics and Jews from eastern and southern Europe led to fears among Protestants about an alien power that seemed to dominate the largest cities. The second Klan by the mid 1920s achieved its greatest political power in Indiana; it was active throughout the South, Midwest, especially Michigan; and in the West, in Colorado and Oregon.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku_Klux_Klan

  180. @Anonymous Nephew
    "in the communities of ex-Gulag inmates, Germans and their children were known for their industriousness, probity and female chasteness"

    Tacitus had the same impression 2,000 years ago.

    http://www.ourcivilisation.com/smartboard/shop/tacitusc/germany/chap1.htm

    "Thus it is that the German women live in a chastity that is impregnable, uncorrupted by the temptations of public shows or the excitements of banquets. Clandestine love-letters are unknown to men and women alike. Adultery in that populous nation is rare in the extreme, and punishment is summary and left to the husband. He shaves off his wife's hair, strips her in the presence of kinsmen, thrusts her from his house and flogs her through the whole village. They have, in fact, no mercy on a woman who prostitutes her chastity. Neither beauty, youth nor wealth can find the sinner a husband. No one in Germany finds vice amusing, or calls it `up-to-date' to debauch and be debauched. It is still better with those states in which only virgins marry, and the hopes and prayers of a wife are settled once and for all. They take one husband, like the one body or life that they possess. No thought or desire must stray beyond him. They must not love the husband so much as the married state."

    They must not love the husband so much as the married state.

    I’m wife; I ’ve finished that,
    That other state;
    I ’m Czar, I ’m woman now:
    It ’s safer so.

    How odd the girl’s life looks
    Behind this soft eclipse!
    I think that earth seems so
    To those in heaven now.

    This being comfort, then
    That other kind was pain;
    But why compare?
    I ’m wife! stop there!

    - Emily Dickinson (high Anglo-Saxon, chafing at the ways of the Allemani)

    No one in Germany finds vice amusing, or calls it `up-to-date’ to debauch and be debauched.

    Was just watching a Michael Palin thing on PBS where he was congratulating Tuareg women in Africa for their “liberated” sexual mores. Progtarditry is so inane.

  181. @Boomstick
    I dunno--there were a good collection of refugees from the German revolution of 1848, including in the Texas hill country. They formed the backbone of a lot of Socialist local governments, such as Milwaukee.

    I dunno–there were a good collection of refugees from the German revolution of 1848, including in the Texas hill country. They formed the backbone of a lot of Socialist local governments, such as Milwaukee.

    Yeah, my father’s ancestors came not long after that, and some ended up in prison for their union-organizing efforts near Matewan, WV. None of us are much for socialism these days, including the political branch of the family, which was hardcore GOP when that wasn’t very popular in WV. From what I hear, the Laura Bush administration softened that core considerably.

    • Replies: @ChaseBizzy
    Have you seen the John Sayles film Matewan? It was a really good watch but I have no idea how accurate it was.
    , @athEIst
    From what I hear, the Laura Bush administration softened that core considerably.

    HA HA. It was the Karl Rove administration. Karl blanketed WV with anti-gun- control literature in early 2000; non-partisan, didn't name candidates but the hillbillies figured that part out themselves. Until then WV was so Democratic it voted Republican only in GOP-landslide years and sometimes not even then. It voted for Stevenson in 1952 and CARTER IN 1980! In 2000 its 5 EV put Bush oven the top(271-266) and it has voted overwhelmingly GOP since.
  182. @syonredux

    On a man to man basis, the Germans and the Anglos (genetically distant by 1500 years only) are the most significant human beings of the last 200 years of Modernity. And we demonize success.

     

    Actually, recent studies show that the Germanic invasion of Britain was not quite as demographically overwhelming as some have thought:

    One thousand and five hundred years ago innumerable Germans, Saxons, Angles and Jutes, came to the shores of Britain, and transformed it into England. One thousand and five hundred years ago the trunk of the English language was grafted upon a fundamentally British ethnic root. Post-Roman Britain was subject to a massive migration of Germans in the 6th century, and, the majority of the ancestry of the people of the British Isles derives from the period before the Anglo-Saxon migrations.
     
    Leaving that to one side, here are some interesting figures regarding the inter-relationship between demography and accomplishment:



    Nobel Prize WINNERS:

    Latin America: 15

    Anglo-America (USA plus Canada): 376

    So, Latin America is flatland.And Anglo-America is the Alps.

    Now, let’s look at the sources of American accomplishment:

    As reported in the 2010 census, the major Euro ethnic groups in the USA are:Germans, Irish, English, and Italians.How many Nobel Prize winners have these ethnic groups produced in their places of origin?

    Germany: 102

    Ireland: 10

    England/UK: 115

    Italy:20

    Clearly, the Anglos and the Germans having been doing a lot of heavy lifting.Also, it's pretty clear that having 100 million Hispanic Mestizos and Amerinds in the USA by 2060 is bad news for America.

    “How many Nobel Prize winners have these ethnic groups produced in their places of origin?

    Germany: 102

    Ireland: 10″

    Population of Germany: 80.7 million

    Population of Ireland: 6.4 million

    I think a lot of people are unaware of the fact that the Federal Republic of Germany has 12.5 times as many people as the Republic of Ireland, but when you factor that into it, Ireland would appear to actually have more Nobel Prize winners per capita, than Germany.

    • Replies: @syonredux

    I think a lot of people are unaware of the fact that the Federal Republic of Germany has 12.5 times as many people as the Republic of Ireland,
     
    Does anyone actually think that?

    but when you factor that into it, Ireland would appear to actually have more Nobel Prize winners per capita, than Germany.
     
    Yeah, but could also debate the relative "Irishness" of some of the winners:

    Ireland
    John Hume, Peace, 1998
    David Trimble*, Peace, 1998
    Seamus Heaney*, Literature, 1995
    Betty Williams, Peace, 1976
    Mairéad Corrigan, Peace, 1976
    Seán MacBride, Peace, 1974
    Samuel Beckett, Literature, 1969
    Ernest Walton, Physics, 1951
    George Bernard Shaw*, Literature, 1925
    W. B. Yeats, Literature, 1923
     
    Walton, for example, was the son of a Methodist minister, Beckett was an Anglican, etc
    , @syonredux

    Ireland
    John Hume, Peace, 1998
    David Trimble*, Peace, 1998
    Seamus Heaney*, Literature, 1995
    Betty Williams, Peace, 1976
    Mairéad Corrigan, Peace, 1976
    Seán MacBride, Peace, 1974
    Samuel Beckett, Literature, 1969
    Ernest Walton, Physics, 1951
    George Bernard Shaw*, Literature, 1925
    W. B. Yeats, Literature, 1923
     
    There's also the fact that half of the prizes are in the "Peace" category.....
  183. Correction: The Republic of Ireland’s population is just 4.6 million. That 6.4 million figure, is for the island as a whole.

  184. @Anonymous
    Aren't the Irish more popular than the Germans? The general stereotype is that the Irish are very friendly, warm, and fun, whereas the Germans are more cold and less likable. Not saying that this is true, just that it seems to be the popular perception, and may be why St. Patrick's Day is more popular and why it's adopted by so many people.

    The Germans are party people….”Fire up the Panzers and off to Poland for a picnic!”

  185. Back to Dubois County. What are the chances that it will now be targeted by HUD or a major city trying to gentrify with Section 8 and other diversifying measures? Are German-Americans considered the ‘right’ kind of Americans, or will they get the Ferguson treatment?

  186. @Father O'Hara
    Thoughts meandering:Maybe Germans just have a knack for the farming life?Remember Eddie Albert in Green Acres?? Note:Re Sowell,he's a brave guy,I am a fan,but he,like Lynn,for his own reasons,will be hard on the Irish.Just sayin.

    :Re Sowell,he’s a brave guy,I am a fan,but he,like Lynn,for his own reasons,will be hard on the Irish

    Why? I wouldn’t know.

  187. Guys, I don’t want to be a spoilsport, but a lot of this racialist stuff is a bit hard to take seriously.

    So the Germans are some kind of supermen whose very Germanic Aryan essence dooms them to success. Where have I heard that before? Oh, right.
    What I don’t get is, if the Germans are so intrinsically great, where were the Germans in the period between the beginning of the world and 1700? When I read the history books, it’s mostly Greeks, Italians, and Frogs that do the heavy lifting before 1700. How come that paragon of German awesome, Frederick the Great, preferred to write in French, and spent much time corresponding with the philosophes?

    The Korean economist Ha-Joon Chang has some fine recent books. One of the points that he makes in one of his books is the following: Back in the day, the Germans were considered hopelessly lazy and stupid by the powers of the day. Ditto the Koreans at another point in history. And indeed, in 1955 South Korea was basically a hole in the ground. Today it is a premier industrial state and a powerful cultural force in the world. What happened there? Did the hapless Koreans suddenly “evolve”?

    Apart from the weird genetic determinism at its end, the piece Steve quotes is excellent. And it seems to confirm, in an elegant way, what we know – a society or a community which values cleanliness, industry, and so on, and manages to propagate its views across the generations, is doomed to succeed. On the other hand, yesterday someone linked to an article about the gypsies in the comments under one of Steve’s pieces. And that article said that, yeah, if a society does not value cleanliness, industry, and so on, and manages to propagate its beliefs across generations, then its doomed to squalor and Hobbesian degradation.

    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk

    So the Germans are some kind of supermen whose very Germanic Aryan essence dooms them to success. Where have I heard that before? Oh, right.

     

    It took the combined forces of the rest of the developed world from two continents to put them down, twice, and yet they have come to lead Europe anyway. It may not be Germanic Aryan anything, but one has to admit that people in and from Germany have been very effective at what they put their minds to. (And again, I choose to include Jewish Germans in this recognition.)

    What I don’t get is, if the Germans are so intrinsically great, where were the Germans in the period between the beginning of the world and 1700?
     
    Germans seem to have thrived in the modern, industrial/scientific world, which didn't exist before 1700. In fact, they helped create it.

    We know that human evolution can happen quickly and is sometimes the result of forces inside human communities. Could the modern world have favored German types and facilitated their development in some way?

    , @anonitron
    German territorial disunity prevented full international participation for much of the Renaissance and Middle Ages but the German lands were usually pretty prosperous and well-populated (Thirty Years' War excepted, of course). That and the Austrians' status as history's most consistent military incompetents* explains Germany's relative silence on the international-historical scene until the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries.

    *military incompetents but dynastic geniuses

    , @Dave Pinsen
    Maybe its a matter of different mean potentials of different groups. With the right conditions (e.g., a legal/government system set up to maximize social harmony within a capitalist economy), Germans in West Germany achieved the pinnacle of 1st world economic development; with the wrong conditions (communism), Germans in East Germany achieved second world economic development. But East Germany wasn't Bangladesh.
    , @syonredux

    What I don’t get is, if the Germans are so intrinsically great, where were the Germans in the period between the beginning of the world and 1700? When I read the history books, it’s mostly Greeks, Italians, and Frogs that do the heavy lifting before 1700.
     
    There were Germans writers and scientists who were quite prominent before 1700: Kepler, Wolfram von Eschenbach, Albertus Magnus, Leibniz (of course, his life did extend a bit into the 18th century: July 1, 1646 – November 14, 1716), Gottfried von Strassburg, etc
    , @peterike
    What I don’t get is, if the Germans are so intrinsically great, where were the Germans in the period between the beginning of the world and 1700?


    Yeah, they were just sitting around creating junk like this:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_art#/media/File:ThreeFoolishVirginsMagdeburg.jpg

    And this:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_art#/media/File:HMF_Duerer_Gruenewald_Harrich_Heller-Altar_DSC_6312.jpg

    And this:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross_of_Lothair#/media/File:Aachen_Germany_Domschatz_Cross-of-Lothair-01.jpg

    And this:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bamberger_Dom_BW_6.JPG

    Real peasant stuff.
    , @SFG
    It's possible Germans may have been subjected to selective pressure during the formation of the country. And genetics isn't *everything*. It could be Germans are genetically average or above-average Europeans who developed a culture that predisposed them to success.
    , @Hippopotamusdrome
    How come that paragon of German awesome, Frederick the Great, preferred to write in French, and spent much time corresponding with the philosophes?

    Fun fact #258: France derives its name from the "Franks", a Germanic tribe from the Rhine who invaded Gaul in the 3rd century AD. The famous rulers Charles Martel and Charlemagne were both from the same Frankish noble family.

    Fun fact #259: A cat's sense of smell is fourteen times stronger than a human's.
    , @Hans Olo
    'In 1955 South Korea was basically a hole in the ground. Today it is a premier industrial state and a powerful cultural force in the world. What happened there? Did the hapless Koreans suddenly “evolve”?'

    Korea had historically been a relatively advanced country. Maybe not as much as China and Japan, which were the most advanced non-Western countries, but not bad. Mostly, it had (like China) overpopulated itself, it had fallen behind the west, and had become a Japanese colony. And then it suffered a devastating war, so that Korea by 1955 really was in rough shape. But it still had a culture and perhaps genotype conducive to success, so it then thrived.

    Japan and Germany were historically advanced countries that had been practically bombed into the stone age by 1945, only to become leading economic powers within a surprisingly brief span of time.
    , @Hans Olo
    In fact, the fact that Korea was able overcome its devastated condition so quickly, while many other countries that were holes in the ground remained holes in the ground, seems to indicate something impressive about Korean culture and/or genotype.
    , @Hippopotamusdrome
    And indeed, in 1955 South Korea was basically a hole in the ground.

    Jikji
    Printed during the Goryeo Dynasty in 1377, it is the world's oldest extant book printed with movable metal type.
    ...
    On the last page of Jikji is recorded details of its publication, indicating that it was published in the 3rd Year of King U (July 1377) by metal type at Heungdeok temple in Cheongju.
  188. I spent some time as a youth in Chariton County( MO). I recall a significant amount of the kids had German names and were Catholic. Though it is no Dubois County (IN) in economic development. Here is an immigration handbook, translated from German into English, that was written by the people of Chariton County to distribute to Germany to attract German immigrants in the post Civil War era.

    Here is an excerpt:

    The purpose of the present little pamphlet is to encourage immigration. Written at the behest and underwritten by the Immigration Society of Chariton County, it is intended in the first place to argue for and to stress the manifold advantages which this county affords the german emigrant, especially to those less well off, and, in this way, to increase immigration and population growth in the county with industrious, forward-striving families. In this sense, it is meant for three classes [of persons]; First, for such inhabitants of the State of Missouri, who no longer tolerate their present place of residence and who are looking about for a new homeland in the states having as few of the disadvantages of the old one as possible [and] offering, on the other hand, many benefits that they miss in their present one. Second, it is intended [to encourage] such inhabitants of the United States who [are] unhappy with the choice of the state in which they have settled down to turn their eyes toward the young, promising West in expectation of improving their circumstances there. Third, however, and in the main, it is written for those on the other side of the ocean, who, tired of Old Europe, with all its oppressive circumstances and conditions that embitter a man’s life, …

    The number of inhabitants in the county is approximately 19,000,
    which includes no fewer than 4000 Germans.

    Of course today Chariton County has less than 8000.

    It is a well-known fact that the German abroad, when he is isolated, relin­quishes his identity more easily that does the descendant of any other nation. His great talent for assimilation, which, to be sure, has raised Germany as an entity to its present high cultural level, leads him soon to forget his Germanness when he does not come into daily contact with his countrymen; and, just as the immigrant, like many of that sort (even many educated Germans), has to turn his attention as soon as he comes into the country towards de-Germanizing himself as quickly as possible in order all the quicker to become Americanized, it is also a somewhat established fact that, even in this regard, moderation is best and that, while one adapts himself in business relationships to the American head for business, he remains a German in social relationships. Those who, from the outset and per force, want to become Americanized, usually do not get far with it. In our county now, the German settler has the incalculable advantage of German neighbors. While Germans are spread throughout the whole county, there are three principal colonies where the immigrant may encounter countrymen of every degree of education [who] will accept him with open arms.

    I like that passage about Germans being easy to assimilate.

  189. @FUBAR007

    Are they technically WASPS?

    I mean Anglo or Saxon. I bet neither.
     
    They aren't "WASPs" in the contemporary sense of that term. However, a significant portion of the original Scots-Irish were neither Scottish nor Irish; they were English living in the area between the Midlands and Scotland proper. In terms of language, folkways, etc., they had more in common with the English than with the Gaelic Scottish highlanders and the Catholic Irish. See Jim Webb's Born Fighting and David Hackett Fischer's Albion's Seed.

    IMO, the Scots-Irish are most appropriately thought of as "frontier Anglos" stemming from the northern end of an English cultural continuum with the more stereotypical Anglo-Saxons at the opposite, southern end.

    On a similar note, a lot of Americans who self-identify as Irish, particularly those who aren't Catholic, are most likely of English descent, too. They're only Irish in the sense that their ancestors moved from Britain to Ireland first before immigrating to North America.

    They are celts.
     
    So are a lot of the English if you go back far enough.

    Wouldn’t Sir Walter Scott’s novels have referred to the ancestors of American Scots-Irish as “Saxons” in contrast to Celtic Highlanders?

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    Is there no Highlander in our West Virginia mountaineers? I'd always assumed the Hatfield/ McCoy feud was a (not very) modern-day equivalent of the clashes between Highlander clans. My mother's mountaineer family was definitely more Celtic than Saxon.
    , @Bill P
    Yes, totally. People here writing about Scots Irish are really exaggerating the distinction between Anglo and Celt. My mom's full Scots Irish, and she's got plenty of English blood. Plenty of native British blood too, I'm sure, but Scots Irish are likely as intermixed with Germanic peoples as the more docile southern English. They just had an entirely different and more martial way of life. So did the people living on the Welsh Marches, but hardly any Americans know anything about these folks, even though they figure prominently in early English and Welsh settlers in the South.

    Scots Irish have been extremely successful in just about every walk of life in the US. To characterize them as backwards hillbillies is pretty silly. From John Wayne to Ulysses Grant they've been active in just about every American endeavor.

    Nowadays, if you came across some corporate manager named Grant, Patton, Stewart or Graham you'd never stop to think "ah! he's descended from Appalachian hog rustlers!" The thing is, when you were Scots Irish and made it you started going to the Episcopalian Church and you weren't called Scots Irish anymore. Nobody knew except family, really, because nobody besides family cared. Nevertheless, being Scots Irish is a point of pride. It means you come from a tradition of courage and toughness, and can stand up to the baddest SOB out there.

    There was a degree of symbiosis between Scots Irish and German settlers in the hills, too. Ever heard of the Kentucky long rifle? It was derived from German jager rifles and adapted to life in the eastern woodlands. The German craftsmen and Scots Irish frontiersmen were a force to be reckoned with. Eventually, a lot of them intermarried and formed the ethnic group generally known as "Georgia crackers" later on in the 19th century.

    There's a lot more class than ethnicity at work here. Appalachian people are more English than most think, and "WASPs" are more Scots and Irish than is commonly acknowledged.
    , @BubbaJoe
    Putting aside the question of just who the Scots-Irish are (Highlander/Lowlander/Borderer/English/a mix), I suspect there's a fair number of English Americans who think they're Scots-Irish, when, in fact, they're not. The racehist blogger posted a thorough analysis showing a substantial inflation in the "Irish" demographics of America. I think, but can't prove and don't know for certain, that a similar process has occurred with the Scots-Irish crowd. Once a bunch of Englishmen decided to create their own nation (America), it didn't make a lot of sense to identify with the Old Country- the one they just broke away from. So, maybe a lot of the people writing down "American" on census forms aren't S-Is, but just plain old English.
    , @Irishman
    The Highlanders were not especially celtic. The Vikings essentially obliterated the original inhabitants of northern scotland and resettled the area themselves.
  190. @Kevin O'Keeffe
    "How many Nobel Prize winners have these ethnic groups produced in their places of origin?

    Germany: 102

    Ireland: 10"


    Population of Germany: 80.7 million

    Population of Ireland: 6.4 million


    I think a lot of people are unaware of the fact that the Federal Republic of Germany has 12.5 times as many people as the Republic of Ireland, but when you factor that into it, Ireland would appear to actually have more Nobel Prize winners per capita, than Germany.

    I think a lot of people are unaware of the fact that the Federal Republic of Germany has 12.5 times as many people as the Republic of Ireland,

    Does anyone actually think that?

    but when you factor that into it, Ireland would appear to actually have more Nobel Prize winners per capita, than Germany.

    Yeah, but could also debate the relative “Irishness” of some of the winners:

    Ireland
    John Hume, Peace, 1998
    David Trimble*, Peace, 1998
    Seamus Heaney*, Literature, 1995
    Betty Williams, Peace, 1976
    Mairéad Corrigan, Peace, 1976
    Seán MacBride, Peace, 1974
    Samuel Beckett, Literature, 1969
    Ernest Walton, Physics, 1951
    George Bernard Shaw*, Literature, 1925
    W. B. Yeats, Literature, 1923

    Walton, for example, was the son of a Methodist minister, Beckett was an Anglican, etc

    • Replies: @Cagey Beast
    Walton, for example, was the son of a Methodist minister, Beckett was an Anglican, etc

    You do understand that a person does not genetically inherit his religious denomination? You do understand that people converted back and forth over the generations and intermarried between denominations? What is this strange need you internet WASPs have to do this? It is really weird.
    , @Hibernian
    Many of the leaders of the Irish revolt against the British were Protestant.
  191. @Steve Sailer
    Wouldn't Sir Walter Scott's novels have referred to the ancestors of American Scots-Irish as "Saxons" in contrast to Celtic Highlanders?

    Is there no Highlander in our West Virginia mountaineers? I’d always assumed the Hatfield/ McCoy feud was a (not very) modern-day equivalent of the clashes between Highlander clans. My mother’s mountaineer family was definitely more Celtic than Saxon.

    • Replies: @syonredux

    Is there no Highlander in our West Virginia mountaineers?
     
    Not that I've heard.The Scots-Irish in America seem to mostly be a mix of Border English and Lowland Scots.In Albion's Seed, Fischer describes only one region as receiving large numbers of Highland Scots, the Cape Fear Valley (818).They started to arrive in 1732, and the exodus really picked up after 1745 (for understandable reasons).According to Fischer, their politics are quite different from those of the Scots-Irish.When the Scots-Irish were mostly Whig, they were Tory.In the early Republic, the Scots-Irish were mainly Democratic-Republican, but the Highlanders of the Cape Fear region voted Federalist (818).
  192. @Kevin O'Keeffe
    "How many Nobel Prize winners have these ethnic groups produced in their places of origin?

    Germany: 102

    Ireland: 10"


    Population of Germany: 80.7 million

    Population of Ireland: 6.4 million


    I think a lot of people are unaware of the fact that the Federal Republic of Germany has 12.5 times as many people as the Republic of Ireland, but when you factor that into it, Ireland would appear to actually have more Nobel Prize winners per capita, than Germany.

    Ireland
    John Hume, Peace, 1998
    David Trimble*, Peace, 1998
    Seamus Heaney*, Literature, 1995
    Betty Williams, Peace, 1976
    Mairéad Corrigan, Peace, 1976
    Seán MacBride, Peace, 1974
    Samuel Beckett, Literature, 1969
    Ernest Walton, Physics, 1951
    George Bernard Shaw*, Literature, 1925
    W. B. Yeats, Literature, 1923

    There’s also the fact that half of the prizes are in the “Peace” category…..

    • Replies: @Jaakko Raipala
    5 prizes for peace in Ireland? Finland had a damn intense civil war with tens of thousands dead, we are neighbors to those smelly Norwegians and they still didn't give anyone a peace prize. Maybe we should have just kept shooting at each other for a century?

    At least the Swedes handed us a literature prize for that mess.

  193. @syonredux

    I think a lot of people are unaware of the fact that the Federal Republic of Germany has 12.5 times as many people as the Republic of Ireland,
     
    Does anyone actually think that?

    but when you factor that into it, Ireland would appear to actually have more Nobel Prize winners per capita, than Germany.
     
    Yeah, but could also debate the relative "Irishness" of some of the winners:

    Ireland
    John Hume, Peace, 1998
    David Trimble*, Peace, 1998
    Seamus Heaney*, Literature, 1995
    Betty Williams, Peace, 1976
    Mairéad Corrigan, Peace, 1976
    Seán MacBride, Peace, 1974
    Samuel Beckett, Literature, 1969
    Ernest Walton, Physics, 1951
    George Bernard Shaw*, Literature, 1925
    W. B. Yeats, Literature, 1923
     
    Walton, for example, was the son of a Methodist minister, Beckett was an Anglican, etc

    Walton, for example, was the son of a Methodist minister, Beckett was an Anglican, etc

    You do understand that a person does not genetically inherit his religious denomination? You do understand that people converted back and forth over the generations and intermarried between denominations? What is this strange need you internet WASPs have to do this? It is really weird.

    • Replies: @syonredux

    You do understand that a person does not genetically inherit his religious denomination?
     
    Yeah, but if someone's parents are, say, Lutheran, that does considerably up the chances that he is also Lutheran.

    You do understand that people converted back and forth over the generations and intermarried between denominations? What is this strange need you internet WASPs have to do this? It is really weird.
     
    Because religious faith frequently does have an ethnic component, especially in places like Ireland.
  194. @Jim
    I've never seen an Amish person smile or laugh. They always seem to have a very grim visage and they walk right past you without a glance as if you didn't exist. The Mennonites though always seem to talking and laughing among themselves. Of course they also dress in a colorful way while the Amish are always dressed in plain black.

    We have a lot of Amish in Western NY and my wife and I shop once in a while at a Amish “package” store that we call the “Amish Aldis.” This winter, while in Amish country, I saw maybe 12 carriages lined up behind an Amish country store. There was a group of at least 20 Amish boys and girls, in their traditional garb playing hockey on a frozen pond. I can assure you that they were laughing and having fun. They are polite, but not overly friendly to “English” people, their name for non-Amish. Another thing I have noticed about the Amish, is while they live in communities, they don’t seem to have a central town or village, just a lot of farms near to each other.

  195. @NorthOfTheOneOhOne
    So blacks are really just dark skinned hillbillies? Really? Could have fooled me!

    Amazing how the Scots-Irish could hold on to those bad habits for generations, yet blacks brought no bad habits with them to the Americas. Sorry, got to call bullshit on that one!

    Yes, it’s interesting how many people are so eager to trace the faults of various white groups back to Ireland or Italy or wherever, but how seldom they look at Africa when trying to make sense of American blacks’ behaviour.

  196. @jimbojones
    Guys, I don't want to be a spoilsport, but a lot of this racialist stuff is a bit hard to take seriously.

    So the Germans are some kind of supermen whose very Germanic Aryan essence dooms them to success. Where have I heard that before? Oh, right.
    What I don't get is, if the Germans are so intrinsically great, where were the Germans in the period between the beginning of the world and 1700? When I read the history books, it's mostly Greeks, Italians, and Frogs that do the heavy lifting before 1700. How come that paragon of German awesome, Frederick the Great, preferred to write in French, and spent much time corresponding with the philosophes?

    The Korean economist Ha-Joon Chang has some fine recent books. One of the points that he makes in one of his books is the following: Back in the day, the Germans were considered hopelessly lazy and stupid by the powers of the day. Ditto the Koreans at another point in history. And indeed, in 1955 South Korea was basically a hole in the ground. Today it is a premier industrial state and a powerful cultural force in the world. What happened there? Did the hapless Koreans suddenly "evolve"?

    Apart from the weird genetic determinism at its end, the piece Steve quotes is excellent. And it seems to confirm, in an elegant way, what we know - a society or a community which values cleanliness, industry, and so on, and manages to propagate its views across the generations, is doomed to succeed. On the other hand, yesterday someone linked to an article about the gypsies in the comments under one of Steve's pieces. And that article said that, yeah, if a society does not value cleanliness, industry, and so on, and manages to propagate its beliefs across generations, then its doomed to squalor and Hobbesian degradation.

    So the Germans are some kind of supermen whose very Germanic Aryan essence dooms them to success. Where have I heard that before? Oh, right.

    It took the combined forces of the rest of the developed world from two continents to put them down, twice, and yet they have come to lead Europe anyway. It may not be Germanic Aryan anything, but one has to admit that people in and from Germany have been very effective at what they put their minds to. (And again, I choose to include Jewish Germans in this recognition.)

    What I don’t get is, if the Germans are so intrinsically great, where were the Germans in the period between the beginning of the world and 1700?

    Germans seem to have thrived in the modern, industrial/scientific world, which didn’t exist before 1700. In fact, they helped create it.

    We know that human evolution can happen quickly and is sometimes the result of forces inside human communities. Could the modern world have favored German types and facilitated their development in some way?

  197. @Chris Mallory
    Letting in hordes of Germans was one of the biggest mistakes this nation ever made. Their blind obedience to authority and love of being told what to do did not fit with the Rights of Englishmen that this nation was based on.

    Nice go at trolling. The best American farmers were and are Germans and Dutch who are the same. This was the foundation of America that industry was built on. And the German-Americans excelled at building up our heartland industries too.

    • Replies: @iSteveFan

    The best American farmers were and are Germans and Dutch
     
    German farmers were in demand and many ended up in the Volga area as well as the US and southern Brazil. As for the Dutch, well the Boers seemed to be pretty good...
  198. @syonredux

    And the irony of course, that before the Civil War, it could well be said that the South had produced more significant citizens of note; after all, the South was the wealthiest region in the US prior to the Civil War and for obvious reasons.
     
    Again, no.In the arts and the sciences, the South was a massive underperformer in the antebellum period.The North produced a very large number of significant figures during the period 1607-1861: Jonathan Edwards, Benjamin Franklin, Eli Whitney, Joseph Henry, John Fulton, Hawthorne, Melville, Whitman, Emerson, Parkman, Prescott, Thoreau, Dickinson, Morse, Benjamin Thompson, etc.

    The South, in contrast, produced only a small handful of figures, men like Poe (who was born in Boston, received his early schooling in England, and spent a large portion of his career in Northern cities like New York and Philadelphia) and Matthew Fontaine Maury ( a pioneering oceanographer).


    As for the South being wealthier, that was not true on a per capita basis.The cotton boom produced a lot millionaires in the South, but the Native born Whites were more impoverished than their cousins in Northern states.

    Again, no.In the arts and the sciences, the South was a massive underperformer in the antebellum period.

    Well, the arts and sciences are the sphere of the Priestly class. The South was settled by-and-large by the Warrior class, the Scots-Irish* in the highlands and the Cavalier in the Low.

    Maybe if that Priestly class hadn’t been so anxious to denigrate the Warriors in service of mere regional chauvinism, we all wouldn’t be paying so much danegeld today and we’d be able to defend our borders.

    * – the shock troops of the British Empire

    • Replies: @syonredux

    Well, the arts and sciences are the sphere of the Priestly class. The South was settled by-and-large by the Warrior class, the Scots-Irish* in the highlands and the Cavalier in the Low.
     
    If you want to spin it that way, feel free.It still doesn't alter the fact that the South has not done very well when it comes to turning out significant figures in the arts and the sciences.
  199. @jimbojones
    Guys, I don't want to be a spoilsport, but a lot of this racialist stuff is a bit hard to take seriously.

    So the Germans are some kind of supermen whose very Germanic Aryan essence dooms them to success. Where have I heard that before? Oh, right.
    What I don't get is, if the Germans are so intrinsically great, where were the Germans in the period between the beginning of the world and 1700? When I read the history books, it's mostly Greeks, Italians, and Frogs that do the heavy lifting before 1700. How come that paragon of German awesome, Frederick the Great, preferred to write in French, and spent much time corresponding with the philosophes?

    The Korean economist Ha-Joon Chang has some fine recent books. One of the points that he makes in one of his books is the following: Back in the day, the Germans were considered hopelessly lazy and stupid by the powers of the day. Ditto the Koreans at another point in history. And indeed, in 1955 South Korea was basically a hole in the ground. Today it is a premier industrial state and a powerful cultural force in the world. What happened there? Did the hapless Koreans suddenly "evolve"?

    Apart from the weird genetic determinism at its end, the piece Steve quotes is excellent. And it seems to confirm, in an elegant way, what we know - a society or a community which values cleanliness, industry, and so on, and manages to propagate its views across the generations, is doomed to succeed. On the other hand, yesterday someone linked to an article about the gypsies in the comments under one of Steve's pieces. And that article said that, yeah, if a society does not value cleanliness, industry, and so on, and manages to propagate its beliefs across generations, then its doomed to squalor and Hobbesian degradation.

    German territorial disunity prevented full international participation for much of the Renaissance and Middle Ages but the German lands were usually pretty prosperous and well-populated (Thirty Years’ War excepted, of course). That and the Austrians’ status as history’s most consistent military incompetents* explains Germany’s relative silence on the international-historical scene until the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries.

    *military incompetents but dynastic geniuses

  200. @Steve Sailer
    Wouldn't Sir Walter Scott's novels have referred to the ancestors of American Scots-Irish as "Saxons" in contrast to Celtic Highlanders?

    Yes, totally. People here writing about Scots Irish are really exaggerating the distinction between Anglo and Celt. My mom’s full Scots Irish, and she’s got plenty of English blood. Plenty of native British blood too, I’m sure, but Scots Irish are likely as intermixed with Germanic peoples as the more docile southern English. They just had an entirely different and more martial way of life. So did the people living on the Welsh Marches, but hardly any Americans know anything about these folks, even though they figure prominently in early English and Welsh settlers in the South.

    Scots Irish have been extremely successful in just about every walk of life in the US. To characterize them as backwards hillbillies is pretty silly. From John Wayne to Ulysses Grant they’ve been active in just about every American endeavor.

    Nowadays, if you came across some corporate manager named Grant, Patton, Stewart or Graham you’d never stop to think “ah! he’s descended from Appalachian hog rustlers!” The thing is, when you were Scots Irish and made it you started going to the Episcopalian Church and you weren’t called Scots Irish anymore. Nobody knew except family, really, because nobody besides family cared. Nevertheless, being Scots Irish is a point of pride. It means you come from a tradition of courage and toughness, and can stand up to the baddest SOB out there.

    There was a degree of symbiosis between Scots Irish and German settlers in the hills, too. Ever heard of the Kentucky long rifle? It was derived from German jager rifles and adapted to life in the eastern woodlands. The German craftsmen and Scots Irish frontiersmen were a force to be reckoned with. Eventually, a lot of them intermarried and formed the ethnic group generally known as “Georgia crackers” later on in the 19th century.

    There’s a lot more class than ethnicity at work here. Appalachian people are more English than most think, and “WASPs” are more Scots and Irish than is commonly acknowledged.

  201. @syonredux

    Ireland
    John Hume, Peace, 1998
    David Trimble*, Peace, 1998
    Seamus Heaney*, Literature, 1995
    Betty Williams, Peace, 1976
    Mairéad Corrigan, Peace, 1976
    Seán MacBride, Peace, 1974
    Samuel Beckett, Literature, 1969
    Ernest Walton, Physics, 1951
    George Bernard Shaw*, Literature, 1925
    W. B. Yeats, Literature, 1923
     
    There's also the fact that half of the prizes are in the "Peace" category.....

    5 prizes for peace in Ireland? Finland had a damn intense civil war with tens of thousands dead, we are neighbors to those smelly Norwegians and they still didn’t give anyone a peace prize. Maybe we should have just kept shooting at each other for a century?

    At least the Swedes handed us a literature prize for that mess.

    • Replies: @Ivy
    So, if Swedes live to eat, Norwegians eat to live and Danes eat to drink, please add on for Finns.
  202. @AshTon
    So what's the best ethnic group to be surrounded by in the US, if you want a high-level of civilised life? Germans? My guess would be Dutch or Scandinavian. And the further west the better, since they are likely to be more go-getters.

    “So what’s the best ethnic group to be surrounded by in the US, if you want a high-level of civilised life? Germans? My guess would be Dutch or Scandinavian.”

    After spending a few years living around Scandinavians I must say the agreeableness can get to you. After returning here this year I am already missing a good argument.

  203. @Hans Olo
    "And where in America were the Germans the first to settle the land and hold the natives at bay?"

    Well, they kind of tried that in southwestern Minnesota. It didn't end very well. See:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dakota_War_of_1862

    “And where in America were the Germans the first to settle the land and hold the natives at bay?”

    Well, they kind of tried that in southwestern Minnesota. It didn’t end very well. See:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dakota_War_of_1862

    Weren’t a lot of the settlers there Scandinavian, not German?Or am I being unduly influenced by the Max von Sydow film, The New Land, which chronicles the lives of Scandinavian settlers in Minnesota:

    After suffering several miscarriages, Kristina falls ill and becomes bedridden, gradually weakening. Kristina dies in 1862, during a period marked in American history by the Sioux Uprising of 1862, during which Sioux warriors killed more than 500 white settlers across the upper Midwest, among them Kristina’s uncle Danjel and his three grown children. The film shows some of these warriors being hanged.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_New_Land

    In any case, it’s a very good film

    • Replies: @Hans Olo
    I've seen that too. It is a very good film.

    Some of the people caught up in that war were Scandinavian, but there was also a large German contingent. That area of Minnesota has a lot of Germans - think New Ulm, which features a giant statue of Hermann, the ancient Germanic chieften that drove the Roman legions out of Germany, and which still has strong connections to its German heritage.

    My theory is that part of the reason that war turned into such a massacre for the settlers was because they were relatively un-warlike German and Scandinavian immigrants - unlike Anglo-Saxon and Scots-Irish settlers, who tended to be armed to the teeth and adept at using said arms.
    So you kind of had a "fox in the henhouse" scenario, until the military got things under control.
    , @Big Bill
    And don't forget the good Swedes of Northfield, Minnesota. They didn't run for cover when the James/Younger gang came to rob their bank. They rolled out on the street and shot the crap out of them.
  204. @David
    Razib is such a horrible writer:

    One thousand and five hundred years ago innumerable Germans, Saxons, Angles and Jutes, came to the shores of Britain, and transformed it into England. One thousand and five hundred years ago the trunk of the English language was grafted upon a fundamentally British ethnic root. Post-Roman Britain was subject to a massive migration of Germans in the 6th century, and, the majority of the ancestry of the people of the British Isles derives from the period before the Anglo-Saxon migrations.
     
    He says "innumerable" and "massive" then says "and," not "but," "the majority... derives from before." He plants in our heads words that imply significant impact. We didn't bring "innumerable" to the table. He did. Than he introduces an opposite thought, that "innumerable" wasn't so great. Reversing his trend without warning makes it almost essential to reread the passage. But it must be worth it.

    I grew up here speaking English. I didn't have the advantage of learning it by reading Clan of the Cave Bear cover to cover at a sleepover when I was 5. Razib's more cosmopolitan perspective can see beyond the bourgeois distinctions among English conjunctions.

    Khan: “…the trunk of the English language was grafted upon a fundamentally British ethnic root”. German was transplanted entirely, not grafted on to the indigenous language of the Britons. Very few English words are of Celtic origin.

  205. @Desiderius

    Again, no.In the arts and the sciences, the South was a massive underperformer in the antebellum period.
     
    Well, the arts and sciences are the sphere of the Priestly class. The South was settled by-and-large by the Warrior class, the Scots-Irish* in the highlands and the Cavalier in the Low.

    Maybe if that Priestly class hadn't been so anxious to denigrate the Warriors in service of mere regional chauvinism, we all wouldn't be paying so much danegeld today and we'd be able to defend our borders.

    * - the shock troops of the British Empire

    Well, the arts and sciences are the sphere of the Priestly class. The South was settled by-and-large by the Warrior class, the Scots-Irish* in the highlands and the Cavalier in the Low.

    If you want to spin it that way, feel free.It still doesn’t alter the fact that the South has not done very well when it comes to turning out significant figures in the arts and the sciences.

    • Replies: @Desiderius

    If you want to spin it that way, feel free.It still doesn’t alter the fact that the South has not done very well when it comes to turning out significant figures in the arts and the sciences.
     
    Nor did the great figures that Central Asia produced in the Arts and Sciences a thousand years ago avail them much when the Great Khan came passing through. Murray's criteria are too narrow.
    , @Name Withheld
    @syon

    "If you want to spin it that way, feel free.It still doesn’t alter the fact that the South has not done very well when it comes to turning out significant figures in the arts and the sciences."

    If you want to say the sciences, then I would agree, but the arts?
    The South has had many, many, excellent novelists and writers. Even some Northern writers like John Berendt have set their novels in the South. As I told a Jewish New York friend of mine in a debate about 15 years ago, "they don't write great literature about factory workers in Buffalo".
  206. Andrew Jackson (March 15, 1767 – June 8, 1845) was the seventh President of the United States (1829–1837). He was born near the end of the colonial era, somewhere near the then-unmarked border between North and South Carolina, into a recently immigrated Scots-Irish farming family of relatively modest means

    This pugnacious Scots-Irish President is who the moonbats want to remove from the $20 bill and replace him with hideous Harriet Tubman. http://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/05/14/keep-harriet-tubman-and-all-women-off-the-20-bill/

    • Replies: @Dutch Boy
    Granted, she is hideous but Andy Jackson was not the greatest choice for any denomination - he was a fervent foe of paper money and national banks.
  207. @Hapalong Cassidy
    It isn't just the Mestizo portion of Hispanic ethnicity that is the problem. Spain itself has always been a backwater when it comes to scientific and technical achievement. I'm pretty sure the list of Nobel Laureates in science, math, and economics of Spanish descent is pretty barren. And it's not just Anglos and Germans who outcompete them, but their fellow Latins the French and Italians as well.

    Spain itself has always been a backwater when it comes to scientific and technical achievement.

    You don’t think it took any scientific or technical achievement to create the world-spanning Spanish Empire?

    We give short shrift to the Iberians today, but the Spanish and Portuguese kicked off the period of European dominance with their epic feats of navigation, exploration, and conquest.

    • Replies: @syonredux

    You don’t think it took any scientific or technical achievement to create the world-spanning Spanish Empire?

    We give short shrift to the Iberians today, but the Spanish and Portuguese kicked off the period of European dominance with their epic feats of navigation, exploration, and conquest.
     
    Hey, I'm as fond of Henry the Navigator as the next man, but facts are facts.The Iberian Peninsula has contributed very little to the arts and the sciences.Even Spain’s Golden Age was not all that golden when you compare it to what was going on in the rest of Western Europe.Spain from 1500-1650 was just keeping up (barely) with England, France, Italy, etc.Afterwards, it fell far behind ( cf Murray,Human Accomplishment, 338):

    Between 1650 and 1850-during the same two centuries when Britain, France, and Germany were producing hundreds of significant figures and even Italy in its decline produced several dozen-Spain produced a single major figure (Goya) and 11 significant figures. (Murray, Human Accomplishment , 338

     

  208. @Desiderius
    Is there no Highlander in our West Virginia mountaineers? I'd always assumed the Hatfield/ McCoy feud was a (not very) modern-day equivalent of the clashes between Highlander clans. My mother's mountaineer family was definitely more Celtic than Saxon.

    Is there no Highlander in our West Virginia mountaineers?

    Not that I’ve heard.The Scots-Irish in America seem to mostly be a mix of Border English and Lowland Scots.In Albion’s Seed, Fischer describes only one region as receiving large numbers of Highland Scots, the Cape Fear Valley (818).They started to arrive in 1732, and the exodus really picked up after 1745 (for understandable reasons).According to Fischer, their politics are quite different from those of the Scots-Irish.When the Scots-Irish were mostly Whig, they were Tory.In the early Republic, the Scots-Irish were mainly Democratic-Republican, but the Highlanders of the Cape Fear region voted Federalist (818).

  209. @Clyde
    Nice go at trolling. The best American farmers were and are Germans and Dutch who are the same. This was the foundation of America that industry was built on. And the German-Americans excelled at building up our heartland industries too.

    The best American farmers were and are Germans and Dutch

    German farmers were in demand and many ended up in the Volga area as well as the US and southern Brazil. As for the Dutch, well the Boers seemed to be pretty good…

  210. @PV van der Byl
    This Wikipedia entry on one Nodaway county miscreant illustrates your point:

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_McElroy

    Definitely rambunctious rather than the Good Burgher type.

    Makes me think of the people in Winter’s Bone, Jennifer Lawrence’s movie.

    • Replies: @PV van der Byl
    I haven't seen that movie yet but I'll put on my wish list.
  211. @jimbojones
    Guys, I don't want to be a spoilsport, but a lot of this racialist stuff is a bit hard to take seriously.

    So the Germans are some kind of supermen whose very Germanic Aryan essence dooms them to success. Where have I heard that before? Oh, right.
    What I don't get is, if the Germans are so intrinsically great, where were the Germans in the period between the beginning of the world and 1700? When I read the history books, it's mostly Greeks, Italians, and Frogs that do the heavy lifting before 1700. How come that paragon of German awesome, Frederick the Great, preferred to write in French, and spent much time corresponding with the philosophes?

    The Korean economist Ha-Joon Chang has some fine recent books. One of the points that he makes in one of his books is the following: Back in the day, the Germans were considered hopelessly lazy and stupid by the powers of the day. Ditto the Koreans at another point in history. And indeed, in 1955 South Korea was basically a hole in the ground. Today it is a premier industrial state and a powerful cultural force in the world. What happened there? Did the hapless Koreans suddenly "evolve"?

    Apart from the weird genetic determinism at its end, the piece Steve quotes is excellent. And it seems to confirm, in an elegant way, what we know - a society or a community which values cleanliness, industry, and so on, and manages to propagate its views across the generations, is doomed to succeed. On the other hand, yesterday someone linked to an article about the gypsies in the comments under one of Steve's pieces. And that article said that, yeah, if a society does not value cleanliness, industry, and so on, and manages to propagate its beliefs across generations, then its doomed to squalor and Hobbesian degradation.

    Maybe its a matter of different mean potentials of different groups. With the right conditions (e.g., a legal/government system set up to maximize social harmony within a capitalist economy), Germans in West Germany achieved the pinnacle of 1st world economic development; with the wrong conditions (communism), Germans in East Germany achieved second world economic development. But East Germany wasn’t Bangladesh.

    • Replies: @jimbojones
    Hey, now we are talking! My problem is that no one seems to have the faintest ideas what "the right conditions" are (except ex-post-facto) and how to distinguish between genuine ubermenschen, mere mortals who have lucked out at the current moment, and pathetic untermenschen punching way above their weight.

    The great achievements of the Anglos and the Germans have come mostly within the last two centuries. But what are two centuries?

    Let us go back to the year 1400. Two centuries of utterly spectacular Mongol conquests have shaken all of Eurasia. Europe has been decimated by the Black Death and the Papal Schism. The Turks are closing in on Constantinople. Marco Polo's writings tell tall tales of grand civilizations in the remote east. Any sane genetic determinist would go on and on about how magnificent and great the Mongols are, etc. Ditto the Turks, Chinese, and all the rest of them.
    Where are the Mongols now? Who fears the Turks? Where was China between 1800 and 2000?

    Or go back to 1900, at the heyday of eugenicism and Social Darwnisim. The world is split between a very few European Great Powers, plus Europe's progeny the USA, and a Japan that is yet to crush the Tzar. All sophisticates know full well that white people are the pinnacle of evolution, and that the Aryans and Angol-Saxons are the creme-de-la-creme.
    And nowadays Silicon Valley is overrun by Asians; East Asia dominates world industry; and whites are becoming minorities in their own nations.

    There have been too many vicissitudes over the course of history.
  212. @Dave Pinsen
    Spain itself has always been a backwater when it comes to scientific and technical achievement.

    You don't think it took any scientific or technical achievement to create the world-spanning Spanish Empire?

    We give short shrift to the Iberians today, but the Spanish and Portuguese kicked off the period of European dominance with their epic feats of navigation, exploration, and conquest.

    You don’t think it took any scientific or technical achievement to create the world-spanning Spanish Empire?

    We give short shrift to the Iberians today, but the Spanish and Portuguese kicked off the period of European dominance with their epic feats of navigation, exploration, and conquest.

    Hey, I’m as fond of Henry the Navigator as the next man, but facts are facts.The Iberian Peninsula has contributed very little to the arts and the sciences.Even Spain’s Golden Age was not all that golden when you compare it to what was going on in the rest of Western Europe.Spain from 1500-1650 was just keeping up (barely) with England, France, Italy, etc.Afterwards, it fell far behind ( cf Murray,Human Accomplishment, 338):

    Between 1650 and 1850-during the same two centuries when Britain, France, and Germany were producing hundreds of significant figures and even Italy in its decline produced several dozen-Spain produced a single major figure (Goya) and 11 significant figures. (Murray, Human Accomplishment , 338

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    Hey, I’m as fond of Henry the Navigator as the next man, but facts are facts
     
    Henry, in fact, was half-English. Edward III was his great-grandfather, John of Gaunt his grandfather, and Geoffrey Chaucer his granduncle by marriage.

    As teenagers, Henry and his brothers raided and captured Ceuta and Melilla in Africa. Spaniards took no part; they negotiated for it later.

    Henry was also the Eli Manning of his day, upstaging his brother King Edward.
    , @Dave Pinsen
    Hey, I'm as impressed by the moon landing as anyone, but aside from that...
  213. @Cagey Beast
    Walton, for example, was the son of a Methodist minister, Beckett was an Anglican, etc

    You do understand that a person does not genetically inherit his religious denomination? You do understand that people converted back and forth over the generations and intermarried between denominations? What is this strange need you internet WASPs have to do this? It is really weird.

    You do understand that a person does not genetically inherit his religious denomination?

    Yeah, but if someone’s parents are, say, Lutheran, that does considerably up the chances that he is also Lutheran.

    You do understand that people converted back and forth over the generations and intermarried between denominations? What is this strange need you internet WASPs have to do this? It is really weird.

    Because religious faith frequently does have an ethnic component, especially in places like Ireland.

    • Replies: @Cagey Beast
    Because religious faith frequently does have an ethnic component, especially in places like Ireland.

    Frequently it does and also frequently it does not. Do an image search to find photos of the Irish prime ministers Sean Lemass and Terrence O'Neill together. Ask yourself if you can tell which one is a Protestant and which is not. Do the same test with photos of the General Alan Brooke and the actor Ciarán Hinds. Does Edmund Burke look a lot like Samuel Beckett but not at all like Enda Kenny?

    Walton, for example, was the son of a Methodist minister, Beckett was an Anglican, etc

    The funny thing is that my great-uncle went to the same Protestant school with Samuel Beckett but did not look at all like him. Maybe that's why Beckett got a Nobel prize and my great-uncle did not? Is it all down to the haplogroups?

    At a certain point this internet WASP obsession with the Irishness of Irish Protestants becomes a little annoying. If you guys happen to have developed a Hutus versus Tutsis relationship with your Irish-American neighbours in New England then work it out amongst yourselves and stop dragging my ethnic subgroup into your odd little games.

    You guys are turning me into an Anglophobe. Chat sites on the web have given me adult-onset Anglophobia and I'm starting to be okay with that.

    , @Hibernian
    Especially in the South, the Protestants weren't all the Ian Paisley "Home Rule is Rome Rule" type of Protestant. Many identified with Ireland.
  214. @jimbojones
    Guys, I don't want to be a spoilsport, but a lot of this racialist stuff is a bit hard to take seriously.

    So the Germans are some kind of supermen whose very Germanic Aryan essence dooms them to success. Where have I heard that before? Oh, right.
    What I don't get is, if the Germans are so intrinsically great, where were the Germans in the period between the beginning of the world and 1700? When I read the history books, it's mostly Greeks, Italians, and Frogs that do the heavy lifting before 1700. How come that paragon of German awesome, Frederick the Great, preferred to write in French, and spent much time corresponding with the philosophes?

    The Korean economist Ha-Joon Chang has some fine recent books. One of the points that he makes in one of his books is the following: Back in the day, the Germans were considered hopelessly lazy and stupid by the powers of the day. Ditto the Koreans at another point in history. And indeed, in 1955 South Korea was basically a hole in the ground. Today it is a premier industrial state and a powerful cultural force in the world. What happened there? Did the hapless Koreans suddenly "evolve"?

    Apart from the weird genetic determinism at its end, the piece Steve quotes is excellent. And it seems to confirm, in an elegant way, what we know - a society or a community which values cleanliness, industry, and so on, and manages to propagate its views across the generations, is doomed to succeed. On the other hand, yesterday someone linked to an article about the gypsies in the comments under one of Steve's pieces. And that article said that, yeah, if a society does not value cleanliness, industry, and so on, and manages to propagate its beliefs across generations, then its doomed to squalor and Hobbesian degradation.

    What I don’t get is, if the Germans are so intrinsically great, where were the Germans in the period between the beginning of the world and 1700? When I read the history books, it’s mostly Greeks, Italians, and Frogs that do the heavy lifting before 1700.

    There were Germans writers and scientists who were quite prominent before 1700: Kepler, Wolfram von Eschenbach, Albertus Magnus, Leibniz (of course, his life did extend a bit into the 18th century: July 1, 1646 – November 14, 1716), Gottfried von Strassburg, etc

    • Replies: @jimbojones
    No doubt there were! And I don't claim that there weren't.

    What I do claim is that in broad terms, Greco-Italian culture dominated Europe for a good 2000 years (say between 400BC and 1600AD), and French military might reigned supreme for a 1000 years (between 800 and 1800).

    I mean, educated Europe spoke Latin and Greek for more than 2000 years (the study of those two languages was phased out only in 20th century), and all of Europe looked to Rome, in one way or another, between the time of the Caesars and the Reformation.
    , @Desiderius
    You're missing the biggest name of all: Albrecht Dürer. Perhaps the instrumental figure in bringing the Renaissance over the Alps.
  215. @I, Libertine

    While this book covers 60 years of time which ended 143 years ago, I found that it’s thesis matched essentially the same cultural observations that I was noticing from my teens as a keen observer of cultural idiosyncrasies.
     
    But he's not a keen observer of arithmetic. Or the English language.

    I must be in a bad mood.

    Speaking of things German, have you ever noticed that there are no newborn children named Adolph anymore? Why is that?

    Adolf Anderssen’s aggressive, gambling style of chess went out of fashion.

  216. @solontoCroesus
    My understanding is that while Jews dwelt among Germans longer, Jews who migrated to Netherlands post-Spanish expulsion achieved greater access to wealth-producing processes, therefore wealth.

    Jews in Netherlands participated in the nascent Dutch East India companies, to which international trade Jews were able to contribute networks of contacts in far-off lands.

    The troubles that erupted between Jews and Germans did not, for the most part, involve German Jews but rather East European Jews who fled Poland, Lithuania, Russia, etc. for the prosperity and safety (and university systems) of Germany post-Franco-Prussian war, when unified Germany became an industrial powerhouse while Poland, for example, was a political and economic backwater.

    Later, East European Jews migrated to security of Germany, fleeing revolution in Russia and turmoil in Poland, Lithuania, etc.

    -=-
    Also worth noting that Israel was established in its nascent days by German Jews educated in Germany and along the lines of German culture & political notions.

    American zionists made a special effort to remove German Jews from Germany, even if they preferred not to leave.

    Hard to avoid noticing that the neocons are, for the most part, not German Jews (Leo Strauss being the exception) but East European Jews, as is the right-wing power structure in Israel.

    I guess you don’t mean the troubles that erupted in, say, 1050 or so?

  217. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    “Scots Irish are said to have had an aversion to valleys, which they thought would be boggy as in Ireland, and often lost out on the best land because they tended to settled on hills. “

    “Low lands tended to have more fevers. Higher ground was healthier.”

    “The Scotch-Irish preferred slate hills. Daniel Rupp believed they might have chosen hills and rolling countryside because they were familiar with them from Ireland and possibly because such land reminded them of home.”

    People, people! Always defend the high-ground! Avoid the low-ground! Hill-country is good for maneuver and defensive guerilla war. And didn’t Sun Tzu say something about never tarrying on low ground? (He’s probably an honorary Scots-Irish, surely.)

    • Replies: @iffen
    The French ignored this at Dien Bien Phu and we know how that turned out.
  218. @syonredux
    Well, let's use Murray's observation from Human Accomplishment:

    In 1850, for example, the White population of the South was 5.6 million, compared to 8.5 million in the Northeast.
     
    And then take a look at American Literature, 1830-1860:

    Major figures from the North: Hawthorne, Melville, Emerson, Thoreau, Dickinson, Whitman. Those are the figures who would have to included in any kind of reasonable survey class.

    Minor Figures from the North: Holmes, Irving, Cooper, James Russell Lowell, Longfellow, Whittier, Bryant, Margaret Fuller,Stowe, etc

    These are the types who can be excluded from a survey class , but you will usually include a smattering of them.


    Major figures from the South: Poe.That's it.He's the only Southerner who has to be included in a standard survey of American Lit in the period 1830-1860.

    Minor Figures: William Gilmore Simms*, Augustus Baldwin Longstreet, George Washington Harris, perhaps a few others, if the judges are in a generous mood.

    All of these authors are even more second tier than their Northern counterparts.Frankly, I'm not sure if any of them would be included in a standard survey, even for flavor.

    As you can see, using population as a kind, the South should have produced more authors of note.The fact that it didn't indicates that something else is going on.....










    *Poor Simms.Cooper was known as the American Scott, but Simms had to suffer under the indignity of being the Southern Cooper, a moniker that made him doubly provincial.

    A good survey, but I would argue that Cooper clearly belongs in the “major” category. He is simply very out of fashion, being a man of now unpopular views. Cooper was quite a lot more than the Leatherstocking Tales. Mark Twain did a number on him with his humorous but wildly wrong-headed “Fenimore Cooper’s Literary Offenses” and Cooper never quite recovered. And in any case Cooper likely never wrote anything as completely dreadful as “A Connecticut Yankee.” But then I consider Twain over-rated.

    As for the dearth of Southern writers, true enough for that time period. But they made up for lost time in the 20th century.

  219. @syonredux

    You do understand that a person does not genetically inherit his religious denomination?
     
    Yeah, but if someone's parents are, say, Lutheran, that does considerably up the chances that he is also Lutheran.

    You do understand that people converted back and forth over the generations and intermarried between denominations? What is this strange need you internet WASPs have to do this? It is really weird.
     
    Because religious faith frequently does have an ethnic component, especially in places like Ireland.

    Because religious faith frequently does have an ethnic component, especially in places like Ireland.

    Frequently it does and also frequently it does not. Do an image search to find photos of the Irish prime ministers Sean Lemass and Terrence O’Neill together. Ask yourself if you can tell which one is a Protestant and which is not. Do the same test with photos of the General Alan Brooke and the actor Ciarán Hinds. Does Edmund Burke look a lot like Samuel Beckett but not at all like Enda Kenny?

    Walton, for example, was the son of a Methodist minister, Beckett was an Anglican, etc

    The funny thing is that my great-uncle went to the same Protestant school with Samuel Beckett but did not look at all like him. Maybe that’s why Beckett got a Nobel prize and my great-uncle did not? Is it all down to the haplogroups?

    At a certain point this internet WASP obsession with the Irishness of Irish Protestants becomes a little annoying. If you guys happen to have developed a Hutus versus Tutsis relationship with your Irish-American neighbours in New England then work it out amongst yourselves and stop dragging my ethnic subgroup into your odd little games.

    You guys are turning me into an Anglophobe. Chat sites on the web have given me adult-onset Anglophobia and I’m starting to be okay with that.

    • Replies: @syonredux

    Frequently it does and also frequently it does not. Do an image search to find photos of the Irish prime ministers Sean Lemass and Terrence O’Neill together. Ask yourself if you can tell which one is a Protestant and which is not. Do the same test with photos of the General Alan Brooke and the actor Ciarán Hinds. Does Edmund Burke look a lot like Samuel Beckett but not at all like Enda Kenny?
     
    Ethnic differences are not always defined by phenotype.And I never said that there are no ethnically Irish Protestants.
    , @Matra
    It's largely a reaction to Anglophobia and the dominant Irish nationalist narrative. Irish nationalists have a long history of claiming as Irish everything they like that came from the Protestants but dismissing as sectarian or British oppression anything they don't like or that doesn't fit the nationalist narrative even though it came from the same people. In the US there is a similar thing happening. Anything that came from the South that northern liberals like they proclaim to be American. Things that are unPC or that they in general look down on that came from the same South are classified as Southern. So Thomas Jefferson of Virginia is American but Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell of the same Virginia are Southerners. Blues, rock, Johnny Cash, and I'm guessing pulled pork are American but the the KKK, slavery, unfashionable country singers, and Wal-Mart are just Southern things. Northeastern 'WASPs' get the same treatment from Ellis Islanders. Some of us on the receiving end such self-serving and often hostile narratives from our 'victims' just want to set the record straight.
  220. @syonredux
    Yeah, there's a lot of intra-European diversity that gets ignored in our enthusiasm for non-European immigration.Here's an excellent book to read:

    Ethnic America: A History Paperback – February 1, 1981
    by Thomas Sowell

    http://www.amazon.com/Ethnic-America-History-Thomas-Sowell/dp/0465020755

    It's got a lot of fascinating information on the Germans, Irish, Italians, etc.One takeaway from the book: in 19th century America, you really didn't want to have Irish Catholic neighbors.

    Here's another highly recommended book:

    Albion's Seed: Four British Folkways in America (America: a cultural history) Paperback – March 14, 1989
    by David Hackett Fischer

    http://www.amazon.com/Albions-Seed-British-Folkways-cultural/dp/0195069056

    This one deals with intra-Anglo differences.It closely analyzes and lists the ways in which the Puritans, Quakers, Virginia Tidewater, and Border Folk (AKA, the Scots-Irish) differ from one another.

    “… in 19th century America, you really didn’t want to have Irish Catholic neighbors.” No, it would be better to have neighbors like John Brown, Jesse James, or Billy the Kid. Or maybe Nathan Bedford Forrest.

    • Replies: @syonredux

    “… in 19th century America, you really didn’t want to have Irish Catholic neighbors.” No, it would be better to have neighbors like John Brown, Jesse James, or Billy the Kid. Or maybe Nathan Bedford Forrest.
     
    Statistics count for more than celebrated individuals.And the 19th century Catholic Irish were a violent,drunken lot.Read Sowell.
  221. @jimbojones
    Guys, I don't want to be a spoilsport, but a lot of this racialist stuff is a bit hard to take seriously.

    So the Germans are some kind of supermen whose very Germanic Aryan essence dooms them to success. Where have I heard that before? Oh, right.
    What I don't get is, if the Germans are so intrinsically great, where were the Germans in the period between the beginning of the world and 1700? When I read the history books, it's mostly Greeks, Italians, and Frogs that do the heavy lifting before 1700. How come that paragon of German awesome, Frederick the Great, preferred to write in French, and spent much time corresponding with the philosophes?

    The Korean economist Ha-Joon Chang has some fine recent books. One of the points that he makes in one of his books is the following: Back in the day, the Germans were considered hopelessly lazy and stupid by the powers of the day. Ditto the Koreans at another point in history. And indeed, in 1955 South Korea was basically a hole in the ground. Today it is a premier industrial state and a powerful cultural force in the world. What happened there? Did the hapless Koreans suddenly "evolve"?

    Apart from the weird genetic determinism at its end, the piece Steve quotes is excellent. And it seems to confirm, in an elegant way, what we know - a society or a community which values cleanliness, industry, and so on, and manages to propagate its views across the generations, is doomed to succeed. On the other hand, yesterday someone linked to an article about the gypsies in the comments under one of Steve's pieces. And that article said that, yeah, if a society does not value cleanliness, industry, and so on, and manages to propagate its beliefs across generations, then its doomed to squalor and Hobbesian degradation.

    What I don’t get is, if the Germans are so intrinsically great, where were the Germans in the period between the beginning of the world and 1700?

    Yeah, they were just sitting around creating junk like this:

    And this:

    And this:

    And this:

    Real peasant stuff.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Inventing the printing press?
    , @SPMoore8
    Oh, man, we could do this all night.

    Germans were all over Europe before 1700, doing things like this:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altarpiece_of_Veit_Stoss#/media/File:Altaarstuk.jpg

    And speaking of triptychs, there's this:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthias_Gr%C3%BCnewald#/media/File:Mathis_Gothart_Gr%C3%BCnewald_030.jpg

    -- which inspired Hindemith's opera. The first is in Krakow, in Poland, the second is in Colmar, in France.

    At the same time, I have to agree with Jimbo, we really don't need either genetic determinism or another round of German ethnic chauvinism.
    , @Jacobite
    Albrecht Durer was an ethnic Hungarian.
  222. @Dave Pinsen
    Maybe its a matter of different mean potentials of different groups. With the right conditions (e.g., a legal/government system set up to maximize social harmony within a capitalist economy), Germans in West Germany achieved the pinnacle of 1st world economic development; with the wrong conditions (communism), Germans in East Germany achieved second world economic development. But East Germany wasn't Bangladesh.

    Hey, now we are talking! My problem is that no one seems to have the faintest ideas what “the right conditions” are (except ex-post-facto) and how to distinguish between genuine ubermenschen, mere mortals who have lucked out at the current moment, and pathetic untermenschen punching way above their weight.

    The great achievements of the Anglos and the Germans have come mostly within the last two centuries. But what are two centuries?

    Let us go back to the year 1400. Two centuries of utterly spectacular Mongol conquests have shaken all of Eurasia. Europe has been decimated by the Black Death and the Papal Schism. The Turks are closing in on Constantinople. Marco Polo’s writings tell tall tales of grand civilizations in the remote east. Any sane genetic determinist would go on and on about how magnificent and great the Mongols are, etc. Ditto the Turks, Chinese, and all the rest of them.
    Where are the Mongols now? Who fears the Turks? Where was China between 1800 and 2000?

    Or go back to 1900, at the heyday of eugenicism and Social Darwnisim. The world is split between a very few European Great Powers, plus Europe’s progeny the USA, and a Japan that is yet to crush the Tzar. All sophisticates know full well that white people are the pinnacle of evolution, and that the Aryans and Angol-Saxons are the creme-de-la-creme.
    And nowadays Silicon Valley is overrun by Asians; East Asia dominates world industry; and whites are becoming minorities in their own nations.

    There have been too many vicissitudes over the course of history.

    • Replies: @Anonym
    Hey, now we are talking! My problem is that no one seems to have the faintest ideas what “the right conditions” are (except ex-post-facto) and how to distinguish between genuine ubermenschen, mere mortals who have lucked out at the current moment, and pathetic untermenschen punching way above their weight.

    The great achievements of the Anglos and the Germans have come mostly within the last two centuries. But what are two centuries?


    The Germans really didn't come from nowhere. "Give me back my legions", ring any bells? Charles Martel? That neither the Romans nor the Muslims (twice) at the height of their powers could conquer the Germans is an indication that they had more potential than a couple centuries of great achievements might indicate.

    The Chinese civilization has been around a long time and has done some impressive things over the centuries. It was hooked on Opium, overrun by the Japanese and then wracked internally by Mao for his own benefit, so absent those things it has regained its former stature.

    Military conquest is also not everything. What lasting civilizational or cultural achievements did the Turks or Mongols contribute? It seems that a lot of these types of empires have been more due to the circumstance of having a single genius military leader (or dynasty) rather than the ability of their people per se.
  223. @syonredux

    I think a lot of people are unaware of the fact that the Federal Republic of Germany has 12.5 times as many people as the Republic of Ireland,
     
    Does anyone actually think that?

    but when you factor that into it, Ireland would appear to actually have more Nobel Prize winners per capita, than Germany.
     
    Yeah, but could also debate the relative "Irishness" of some of the winners:

    Ireland
    John Hume, Peace, 1998
    David Trimble*, Peace, 1998
    Seamus Heaney*, Literature, 1995
    Betty Williams, Peace, 1976
    Mairéad Corrigan, Peace, 1976
    Seán MacBride, Peace, 1974
    Samuel Beckett, Literature, 1969
    Ernest Walton, Physics, 1951
    George Bernard Shaw*, Literature, 1925
    W. B. Yeats, Literature, 1923
     
    Walton, for example, was the son of a Methodist minister, Beckett was an Anglican, etc

    Many of the leaders of the Irish revolt against the British were Protestant.

    • Replies: @syonredux

    Many of the leaders of the Irish revolt against the British were Protestant.
     
    Yeah, I know
  224. @Hibernian
    "... in 19th century America, you really didn’t want to have Irish Catholic neighbors." No, it would be better to have neighbors like John Brown, Jesse James, or Billy the Kid. Or maybe Nathan Bedford Forrest.

    “… in 19th century America, you really didn’t want to have Irish Catholic neighbors.” No, it would be better to have neighbors like John Brown, Jesse James, or Billy the Kid. Or maybe Nathan Bedford Forrest.

    Statistics count for more than celebrated individuals.And the 19th century Catholic Irish were a violent,drunken lot.Read Sowell.

    • Replies: @Hibernian
    Some of us still are. I think highly of Sowell; I don't have to agree with him on everything. Statistics from the 19th century tend to be not very complete, and therefore not very scientific. Give us a sample if you've got some good ones. The Grace family (W.R. Grace company) and the Silver Kings/Irish Big Four got their start in the 19th Century.
  225. @Chris Mallory
    Letting in hordes of Germans was one of the biggest mistakes this nation ever made. Their blind obedience to authority and love of being told what to do did not fit with the Rights of Englishmen that this nation was based on.

    William Shirer in “The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich” noted that those who left Germany for America tended to be more democratically minded than those who stayed behind,

  226. @syonredux

    What I don’t get is, if the Germans are so intrinsically great, where were the Germans in the period between the beginning of the world and 1700? When I read the history books, it’s mostly Greeks, Italians, and Frogs that do the heavy lifting before 1700.
     
    There were Germans writers and scientists who were quite prominent before 1700: Kepler, Wolfram von Eschenbach, Albertus Magnus, Leibniz (of course, his life did extend a bit into the 18th century: July 1, 1646 – November 14, 1716), Gottfried von Strassburg, etc

    No doubt there were! And I don’t claim that there weren’t.

    What I do claim is that in broad terms, Greco-Italian culture dominated Europe for a good 2000 years (say between 400BC and 1600AD), and French military might reigned supreme for a 1000 years (between 800 and 1800).

    I mean, educated Europe spoke Latin and Greek for more than 2000 years (the study of those two languages was phased out only in 20th century), and all of Europe looked to Rome, in one way or another, between the time of the Caesars and the Reformation.

    • Replies: @Ivy
    Sic transit gloria mundi :...(
  227. @syonredux

    You do understand that a person does not genetically inherit his religious denomination?
     
    Yeah, but if someone's parents are, say, Lutheran, that does considerably up the chances that he is also Lutheran.

    You do understand that people converted back and forth over the generations and intermarried between denominations? What is this strange need you internet WASPs have to do this? It is really weird.
     
    Because religious faith frequently does have an ethnic component, especially in places like Ireland.

    Especially in the South, the Protestants weren’t all the Ian Paisley “Home Rule is Rome Rule” type of Protestant. Many identified with Ireland.

    • Replies: @syonredux

    Especially in the South, the Protestants weren’t all the Ian Paisley “Home Rule is Rome Rule” type of Protestant. Many identified with Ireland.
     
    Did I say something that implied otherwise?My comments regarding religion and Ireland were centered around issues of ancestry/intermarriage/culture, not patriotic attachment to Ireland
  228. @Hibernian
    Many of the leaders of the Irish revolt against the British were Protestant.

    Many of the leaders of the Irish revolt against the British were Protestant.

    Yeah, I know

  229. Look at the Germans who went to the Russian empire. Some of the most productive, if not the most productive, farmers in that empire.
    A Kazakh friend said in the nineties, after the ethnic Germans in Kazakhstan started going back to Germany, peoplr in rural Kazakhstan scrambled for their homes which were better built and maintained than those of their Russian, Caucasus or Kazakh neighbors. Keep in mind these Kazakhstan Germans had been deported there in the forties with NOthing, and they still made a go of it.

  230. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    “There was a degree of symbiosis between Scots Irish and German settlers in the hills, too. Ever heard of the Kentucky long rifle? It was derived from German jager rifles…”

    I read somewhere that the original rifles were Swiss-German rifles developed to be effective at long range when hunting in the Alps. Not only did you need long-range, but conditions were often windy.

    And about those Mennonites…

    “…The longrifle was developed on the American frontier in south eastern Pennsylvania, in the early 1700s. …

    …The long rifle was the product of German gunsmiths…

    …Martin Meylin’s Gunshop was built in 1719, and it is here that the Mennonite gunsmith of Swiss-German heritage crafted some the earliest, and possibly the first, Pennsylvania Rifles. …

    …the Moravian gunshops at Christian’s Spring in Pennsylvania…”

    The American Revolution might have turned out different if not for long rifles.

  231. @I, Libertine

    While this book covers 60 years of time which ended 143 years ago, I found that it’s thesis matched essentially the same cultural observations that I was noticing from my teens as a keen observer of cultural idiosyncrasies.
     
    But he's not a keen observer of arithmetic. Or the English language.

    I must be in a bad mood.

    Speaking of things German, have you ever noticed that there are no newborn children named Adolph anymore? Why is that?

    Speaking of things German, have you ever noticed that there are no newborn children named Adolph anymore? Why is that?

    Adolph, or Adolphus, has never been in common use in the English-speaking world. Twain used it as a Huck Finn joke. Almost all notable Americans with the name were immigrants or the sons thereof.

    True, the name has almost died out in Europe, but it hangs on in the Spanish- and Portuguese-speaking world. It may still see use in Sweden, where it’s associated with Gustavus Adolphus.

    In 2013, a local election in India featured Adolf Lu Hitler Marak challenged by Frankenstein Momin and Billykid Sangma. (Marak had earlier faced Sangmas named Roster and Zenith.)

    Adolph Mongo (b. 1954) is a Detroit political strategist who worked for candidate Geoffrey Fieger, who’s better known as Jack Kevorkian’s defense attorney and the brother of late Knack frontman Doug.

    Finally, here’s an early Obama sighting by Adolph L Reed, Jr:

    In Chicago, for instance, we’ve gotten a foretaste of the new breed of foundation-hatched black communitarian voices; one of them, a smooth Harvard lawyer with impeccable do-good credentials and vacuous-to-repressive neoliberal politics, has won a state senate seat on a base mainly in the liberal foundation and development worlds. His fundamentally bootstrap line was softened by a patina of the rhetoric of authentic community, talk about meeting in kitchens, small-scale solutions to social problems, and the predictable elevation of process over program — the point where identity politics converges with old-fashioned middle-class reform in favoring form over substance. I suspect that his ilk is the wave of the future in U.S. black politics, as in Haiti and wherever else the International Monetary Fund has sway. So far the black activist response hasn’t been up to the challenge. We have to do better.

    • Replies: @The Man From K Street

    True, the name has almost died out in Europe, but it hangs on in the Spanish- and Portuguese-speaking world.
     
    Don't forget "LA Law" and Anglo soap opera Latino heartthrob "A Martinez". What, you think his parents just gave him a single letter for his name?
  232. @syonredux

    “… in 19th century America, you really didn’t want to have Irish Catholic neighbors.” No, it would be better to have neighbors like John Brown, Jesse James, or Billy the Kid. Or maybe Nathan Bedford Forrest.
     
    Statistics count for more than celebrated individuals.And the 19th century Catholic Irish were a violent,drunken lot.Read Sowell.

    Some of us still are. I think highly of Sowell; I don’t have to agree with him on everything. Statistics from the 19th century tend to be not very complete, and therefore not very scientific. Give us a sample if you’ve got some good ones. The Grace family (W.R. Grace company) and the Silver Kings/Irish Big Four got their start in the 19th Century.

    • Replies: @syonredux

    Some of us still are.
     
    I know; I live in the Boston area

    I think highly of Sowell; I don’t have to agree with him on everything.
     
    So, you don't agree with him on the Irish.Do you agree with him on the Italians and the Jews?

    Statistics from the 19th century tend to be not very complete, and therefore not very scientific.
     
    If you've got studies that show that the 19th century Catholic Irish in the USA were unusually abstemious, pacifistic, and entrepreneurial, feel free to post them.
  233. @Hibernian
    Especially in the South, the Protestants weren't all the Ian Paisley "Home Rule is Rome Rule" type of Protestant. Many identified with Ireland.

    Especially in the South, the Protestants weren’t all the Ian Paisley “Home Rule is Rome Rule” type of Protestant. Many identified with Ireland.

    Did I say something that implied otherwise?My comments regarding religion and Ireland were centered around issues of ancestry/intermarriage/culture, not patriotic attachment to Ireland

    • Replies: @Hibernian
    I think patriotic attachment might have something to do with culture.
  234. @jimbojones
    Guys, I don't want to be a spoilsport, but a lot of this racialist stuff is a bit hard to take seriously.

    So the Germans are some kind of supermen whose very Germanic Aryan essence dooms them to success. Where have I heard that before? Oh, right.
    What I don't get is, if the Germans are so intrinsically great, where were the Germans in the period between the beginning of the world and 1700? When I read the history books, it's mostly Greeks, Italians, and Frogs that do the heavy lifting before 1700. How come that paragon of German awesome, Frederick the Great, preferred to write in French, and spent much time corresponding with the philosophes?

    The Korean economist Ha-Joon Chang has some fine recent books. One of the points that he makes in one of his books is the following: Back in the day, the Germans were considered hopelessly lazy and stupid by the powers of the day. Ditto the Koreans at another point in history. And indeed, in 1955 South Korea was basically a hole in the ground. Today it is a premier industrial state and a powerful cultural force in the world. What happened there? Did the hapless Koreans suddenly "evolve"?

    Apart from the weird genetic determinism at its end, the piece Steve quotes is excellent. And it seems to confirm, in an elegant way, what we know - a society or a community which values cleanliness, industry, and so on, and manages to propagate its views across the generations, is doomed to succeed. On the other hand, yesterday someone linked to an article about the gypsies in the comments under one of Steve's pieces. And that article said that, yeah, if a society does not value cleanliness, industry, and so on, and manages to propagate its beliefs across generations, then its doomed to squalor and Hobbesian degradation.

    It’s possible Germans may have been subjected to selective pressure during the formation of the country. And genetics isn’t *everything*. It could be Germans are genetically average or above-average Europeans who developed a culture that predisposed them to success.

    • Replies: @jimbojones
    "It could be Germans are genetically average or above-average Europeans who developed a culture that predisposed them to success." More than could be, that seems to be the case, yeah.
  235. @syonredux

    You don’t think it took any scientific or technical achievement to create the world-spanning Spanish Empire?

    We give short shrift to the Iberians today, but the Spanish and Portuguese kicked off the period of European dominance with their epic feats of navigation, exploration, and conquest.
     
    Hey, I'm as fond of Henry the Navigator as the next man, but facts are facts.The Iberian Peninsula has contributed very little to the arts and the sciences.Even Spain’s Golden Age was not all that golden when you compare it to what was going on in the rest of Western Europe.Spain from 1500-1650 was just keeping up (barely) with England, France, Italy, etc.Afterwards, it fell far behind ( cf Murray,Human Accomplishment, 338):

    Between 1650 and 1850-during the same two centuries when Britain, France, and Germany were producing hundreds of significant figures and even Italy in its decline produced several dozen-Spain produced a single major figure (Goya) and 11 significant figures. (Murray, Human Accomplishment , 338

     

    Hey, I’m as fond of Henry the Navigator as the next man, but facts are facts

    Henry, in fact, was half-English. Edward III was his great-grandfather, John of Gaunt his grandfather, and Geoffrey Chaucer his granduncle by marriage.

    As teenagers, Henry and his brothers raided and captured Ceuta and Melilla in Africa. Spaniards took no part; they negotiated for it later.

    Henry was also the Eli Manning of his day, upstaging his brother King Edward.

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    According to Nigel Cliff, King John II's scientific advisory council was led by two Jewish mathematician-astronomers, Joseph Vizinho and Abraham Zacuto, who redesigned the navigation instruments and created tables to help pilots navigate in the southern hemisphere.

    Also, by the time of the second or third expedition to India, a number of the sailors were from non-Portuguese -- they just didn't have enough men for everything. One of the chroniclers was a German who sailed with da Gama.
  236. @Hibernian
    Some of us still are. I think highly of Sowell; I don't have to agree with him on everything. Statistics from the 19th century tend to be not very complete, and therefore not very scientific. Give us a sample if you've got some good ones. The Grace family (W.R. Grace company) and the Silver Kings/Irish Big Four got their start in the 19th Century.

    Some of us still are.

    I know; I live in the Boston area

    I think highly of Sowell; I don’t have to agree with him on everything.

    So, you don’t agree with him on the Irish.Do you agree with him on the Italians and the Jews?

    Statistics from the 19th century tend to be not very complete, and therefore not very scientific.

    If you’ve got studies that show that the 19th century Catholic Irish in the USA were unusually abstemious, pacifistic, and entrepreneurial, feel free to post them.

    • Replies: @Ivy
    Oh, my Guinness! It is all over my keyboard and monitor!
    , @Hibernian
    "So, you don’t agree with him on the Irish.Do you agree with him on the Italians and the Jews?"

    I'm not aware of Dr. Sowell's writings on the Italian and Jewish communities. I'm mainly aware of his pro-free-enterprise views and critiques of political correctness. I was aware in a very vague and general way, before this exchange we're having, of his interest in issues of ethnicity.


    "If you’ve got studies that show that the 19th century Catholic Irish in the USA were unusually abstemious, pacifistic, and entrepreneurial, feel free to post them."

    You yourself have alluded to studies (by Dr. Sowell and unnamed others), but you haven't posted any. I don't have any studies to post, and I don't have the time or inclination to find them. There's a middle ground between being "unusually abstemious, pacifistic, and entrepreneurial" and being a bunch of drunken violent lazy hooligans. Some people are teetotalers, others drink a little, and others drink a lot. Some people are pacifists, some defend themselves but don't look for trouble, and others continually look for trouble. As for entrepreneurship, I gave some examples. Also the Kennedys began in the liquor trade in the late 19th century. Google "Auction Lunch Room" or "Auction Lunch Rooms," I forget which. This was a saloon in San Francisco where one of the (Irish Catholic) silver kings overheard boasting from drunken prospectors (Surely they were drunken IRISH prospectors!) and bought into certain mines on this basis.
    , @Pat Hannagan
    In the 20th century they brought decency to your cinema through boycott.
    , @Hibernian
    On the entrepreneurship issue:

    http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=49879946

    I remembered the name "Auction Lunch Room(s)" from a book I read long ago, but it turns out that "Auction Lunch Saloon" gave the results I was looking for. That was the name of th saloon according to Find-a-Grave.
  237. @athEIst
    legacy of the War

    Do you mean the punishingly high tariffs passed by Congress the minute the southerners left Washington in 1861 and maintained except 1913-1919 until the Smoot-Hawley tariff of 1930? These tariffs, often as high as 48%, bled money from the South to the North(or maybe the Northern Industrialists). For every 10,000 shacks in the South a new mansion in Newport .

    Do you mean the punishingly high tariffs passed by Congress the minute the southerners left Washington in 1861…

    A free trader! A globalist! Here, of all places.

    You got something against buying American, buddy? I’m gonna sic Pat upon you.

    Oh, and those tariffs went to Washington, not Newport. And, as any economic nationalist will tell you, they were completely voluntary, if you can buy it here or make it yourself.

    • Replies: @iffen
    Don't you know; the Civil War was fought over tariffs, not slavery.
    , @athEIst
    High tariffs allow the Northern industrialists to raise prices to just below that of now-tariffed foreign competition and that pure-profit goes to Newport.
  238. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    “The best American farmers were and are Germans and Dutch who are the same. This was the foundation of America that industry was built on.”

    Although strictly speaking the foundation of American industry was literally and by design the water-powered mills along the Merrimack river at Lowell, Massachusetts. Creating these mills required an act of espionage, because the mechanics of textile mills was still considered a British state secret:

    “…Lowell had memorized all the workings of British power looms without writing anything down…”

  239. @jimbojones
    Guys, I don't want to be a spoilsport, but a lot of this racialist stuff is a bit hard to take seriously.

    So the Germans are some kind of supermen whose very Germanic Aryan essence dooms them to success. Where have I heard that before? Oh, right.
    What I don't get is, if the Germans are so intrinsically great, where were the Germans in the period between the beginning of the world and 1700? When I read the history books, it's mostly Greeks, Italians, and Frogs that do the heavy lifting before 1700. How come that paragon of German awesome, Frederick the Great, preferred to write in French, and spent much time corresponding with the philosophes?

    The Korean economist Ha-Joon Chang has some fine recent books. One of the points that he makes in one of his books is the following: Back in the day, the Germans were considered hopelessly lazy and stupid by the powers of the day. Ditto the Koreans at another point in history. And indeed, in 1955 South Korea was basically a hole in the ground. Today it is a premier industrial state and a powerful cultural force in the world. What happened there? Did the hapless Koreans suddenly "evolve"?

    Apart from the weird genetic determinism at its end, the piece Steve quotes is excellent. And it seems to confirm, in an elegant way, what we know - a society or a community which values cleanliness, industry, and so on, and manages to propagate its views across the generations, is doomed to succeed. On the other hand, yesterday someone linked to an article about the gypsies in the comments under one of Steve's pieces. And that article said that, yeah, if a society does not value cleanliness, industry, and so on, and manages to propagate its beliefs across generations, then its doomed to squalor and Hobbesian degradation.

    How come that paragon of German awesome, Frederick the Great, preferred to write in French, and spent much time corresponding with the philosophes?

    Fun fact #258: France derives its name from the “Franks”, a Germanic tribe from the Rhine who invaded Gaul in the 3rd century AD. The famous rulers Charles Martel and Charlemagne were both from the same Frankish noble family.

    Fun fact #259: A cat’s sense of smell is fourteen times stronger than a human’s.

  240. • Replies: @Pat Hannagan
    Sack of Rome in 455 was by the Gauls who were Celts.

    "But these edifying stories cannot obscure the fact that the Gauls had the Romans at their mercy, and that a more vindictive or pertinacious enemy might have stayed to kill or sell into slavery the entire population."

    Cary & Scullard, History of Rome

    It's always been our genetic failing: lack of vindictiveness.
    , @jimbojones
    Lol, I'm well aware of that particular version of history. It's the fusion of the Protestant version of history and the Anglo-German Social Darwinist delirium circa 1900.

    It goes like this: The achieving French are really Germanic Franks plus some Norman Vikings. The achieving Spaniards are really Germanic Goths who went to Spain during the turmoil of the collapse of the Empire. Ditto the achieving Northern Italians. The achieving Southern Italians are really Norman Vikings. The achieving Russians are just straight-up Vikings. And the most achieving of them all, the British, are an unholy combo of Norman Vikings, straight-up Vikings, and Germanic Anglo-Saxons.

    I don't buy this nonsense. The Greeks invited philosophy while these mythical Germanic tribes were just a bunch of chumps up in the forests. Whitehead's quote comes to mind: "The safest general characterization of the European philosophical tradition is that it consists of a series of footnotes to Plato." The Romans then took over and cooked up a civilization so great, so monumental, so majestic, that much of Europe did not reach the levels of prosperity and population density witnessed in the days of the Empire until the 19th century. What were the Germanic tribes then? A bunch of auxiliary mercenaries that the Romans hired to do their dirty work, or a bunch of savages who raided the borders of the Empire once in a while, and got stomped whenever Rome felt the need to calm things down.
    To cap it all off, the Greeks and the Romans teamed up and produced the most influential worldview the world has ever seen - Christianity; and the current longest surviving - and still quite influential - institution in history.

    Once the Empire fell, it was Rome and the Church that maintained some semblance of order in Europe, and preserved the vestiges of the great culture and learning of the Empire. (Meanwhile the ambitions of the German Germans extended mostly to a sorry attempt at reviving the Empire.) The Renaissance was again centered at Rome, and was a celebration of the achievements of the old Romans and Greeks. Educated Europeans were fluent in Latin and Greek well into the 20th century.

    I never said that the Germans have achieved nothing. Sure they have achieved much - most of it in the last 200 years, and some of it before. But to claim that the Germans are some kind of an intrinsically (genetically) superior outfit oozing awesome and smarts is even more ridiculous now than it was back in the late 19th century when the idea was originally propagated. The Germans definitely have a culture conducive to great achievement in many walks of life. That same culture was also one of the main ingredients of the catastrophic Second World War.

    Here are a couple of useful references on the subject:
    Hillaire Belloc's "Europe and the Faith." (Particularly the first few chapters.)
    And for a fine psychological analysis of the Germans, see the respective chapter in Carroll Quigley's "Tragedy and Hope." (Chapter IX.)
  241. @Jefferson
    Why is St. Patrick's Day more widely celebrated in the U.S than Oktoberfest? When German Americans outnumber Irish Americans.

    In the 21st Century does German culture and traditions still get a bad rep in the U.S because of World War 2? Just because you celebrate Oktoberfest, it does not automatically mean you worship Adolf Hitler.

    The Irish are fun loving, easygoing people. The Germans are uptight and fanatical cf. the Nazis.

  242. @Steve Sailer
    Wouldn't Sir Walter Scott's novels have referred to the ancestors of American Scots-Irish as "Saxons" in contrast to Celtic Highlanders?

    Putting aside the question of just who the Scots-Irish are (Highlander/Lowlander/Borderer/English/a mix), I suspect there’s a fair number of English Americans who think they’re Scots-Irish, when, in fact, they’re not. The racehist blogger posted a thorough analysis showing a substantial inflation in the “Irish” demographics of America. I think, but can’t prove and don’t know for certain, that a similar process has occurred with the Scots-Irish crowd. Once a bunch of Englishmen decided to create their own nation (America), it didn’t make a lot of sense to identify with the Old Country- the one they just broke away from. So, maybe a lot of the people writing down “American” on census forms aren’t S-Is, but just plain old English.

  243. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    “What I don’t get is, if the Germans are so intrinsically great, where were the Germans in the period between the beginning of the world and 1700?”

    I do believe it was those very same Germans who put paid, as they say, to the Roman Empire, arguably one of the most powerful empires of antiquity…

    “…The Germanic Wars is a name given to a series of wars between the Romans and various Germanic tribes between 113 BC and 596 AD. … The series of conflicts… led (along with internal strife) to the ultimate downfall of the Western Roman Empire.”

    I roughly count over 100 links on that web-page to various battles. Presumably the majority of the people showing up on the non-Roman side were various German tribes.

  244. @Buzz Mohawk

    "A minuscule percentage were jewish."
     
    Let's not forget the often undocumented effects of intermarriage or interbreeding. I bet there was a lot more going on between Jewish and Gentile Germans than just arguing. In fact, I know there was.

    Is it any surprise that two of the agreed-upon smartest peoples are Jewish and German? They cohabitated for centuries. I don't think there is anything coincidental about this.

    I would put a bid in for the native intelligence of Russians as a group. They have a cripplingly corrupt culture, but I admire them for the art, literature, and technological innovations they have come up with in a harsh environment.

  245. @ben tillman

    Also investigate German (and Czech) settled towns in Texas, such as Fredericksburg and New Braunfels. I know a woman PK whose father was invited to a Texas hill country church in 1948 because they demanded a German-speaking pastor.
     
    Would that be a female placekicker or a woman named P.K.? If the latter, would her third initial be a "T"?

    PK = Preacher’s Kid

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preacher%27s_kid

    If you’ve met one, you probably remember him or her.

  246. @syonredux

    Some of us still are.
     
    I know; I live in the Boston area

    I think highly of Sowell; I don’t have to agree with him on everything.
     
    So, you don't agree with him on the Irish.Do you agree with him on the Italians and the Jews?

    Statistics from the 19th century tend to be not very complete, and therefore not very scientific.
     
    If you've got studies that show that the 19th century Catholic Irish in the USA were unusually abstemious, pacifistic, and entrepreneurial, feel free to post them.

    Oh, my Guinness! It is all over my keyboard and monitor!

  247. @SFG
    It's possible Germans may have been subjected to selective pressure during the formation of the country. And genetics isn't *everything*. It could be Germans are genetically average or above-average Europeans who developed a culture that predisposed them to success.

    “It could be Germans are genetically average or above-average Europeans who developed a culture that predisposed them to success.” More than could be, that seems to be the case, yeah.

  248. @syonredux

    “And where in America were the Germans the first to settle the land and hold the natives at bay?”

    Well, they kind of tried that in southwestern Minnesota. It didn’t end very well. See:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dakota_War_of_1862
     
    Weren't a lot of the settlers there Scandinavian, not German?Or am I being unduly influenced by the Max von Sydow film, The New Land, which chronicles the lives of Scandinavian settlers in Minnesota:

    After suffering several miscarriages, Kristina falls ill and becomes bedridden, gradually weakening. Kristina dies in 1862, during a period marked in American history by the Sioux Uprising of 1862, during which Sioux warriors killed more than 500 white settlers across the upper Midwest, among them Kristina's uncle Danjel and his three grown children. The film shows some of these warriors being hanged.
     
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_New_Land

    In any case, it's a very good film

    I’ve seen that too. It is a very good film.

    Some of the people caught up in that war were Scandinavian, but there was also a large German contingent. That area of Minnesota has a lot of Germans – think New Ulm, which features a giant statue of Hermann, the ancient Germanic chieften that drove the Roman legions out of Germany, and which still has strong connections to its German heritage.

    My theory is that part of the reason that war turned into such a massacre for the settlers was because they were relatively un-warlike German and Scandinavian immigrants – unlike Anglo-Saxon and Scots-Irish settlers, who tended to be armed to the teeth and adept at using said arms.
    So you kind of had a “fox in the henhouse” scenario, until the military got things under control.

  249. @Jaakko Raipala
    5 prizes for peace in Ireland? Finland had a damn intense civil war with tens of thousands dead, we are neighbors to those smelly Norwegians and they still didn't give anyone a peace prize. Maybe we should have just kept shooting at each other for a century?

    At least the Swedes handed us a literature prize for that mess.

    So, if Swedes live to eat, Norwegians eat to live and Danes eat to drink, please add on for Finns.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    So, if Swedes live to eat, Norwegians eat to live and Danes eat to drink, please add on for Finns.
     
    Finns drink to sweat. In the sauna.


    Suomalaiset juovat jotta hiki. Saunassa.

  250. @Reg Cæsar

    Speaking of things German, have you ever noticed that there are no newborn children named Adolph anymore? Why is that?

     

    Adolph, or Adolphus, has never been in common use in the English-speaking world. Twain used it as a Huck Finn joke. Almost all notable Americans with the name were immigrants or the sons thereof.

    True, the name has almost died out in Europe, but it hangs on in the Spanish- and Portuguese-speaking world. It may still see use in Sweden, where it's associated with Gustavus Adolphus.

    In 2013, a local election in India featured Adolf Lu Hitler Marak challenged by Frankenstein Momin and Billykid Sangma. (Marak had earlier faced Sangmas named Roster and Zenith.)

    Adolph Mongo (b. 1954) is a Detroit political strategist who worked for candidate Geoffrey Fieger, who's better known as Jack Kevorkian's defense attorney and the brother of late Knack frontman Doug.

    Finally, here's an early Obama sighting by Adolph L Reed, Jr:

    In Chicago, for instance, we’ve gotten a foretaste of the new breed of foundation-hatched black communitarian voices; one of them, a smooth Harvard lawyer with impeccable do-good credentials and vacuous-to-repressive neoliberal politics, has won a state senate seat on a base mainly in the liberal foundation and development worlds. His fundamentally bootstrap line was softened by a patina of the rhetoric of authentic community, talk about meeting in kitchens, small-scale solutions to social problems, and the predictable elevation of process over program — the point where identity politics converges with old-fashioned middle-class reform in favoring form over substance. I suspect that his ilk is the wave of the future in U.S. black politics, as in Haiti and wherever else the International Monetary Fund has sway. So far the black activist response hasn’t been up to the challenge. We have to do better.
     

    True, the name has almost died out in Europe, but it hangs on in the Spanish- and Portuguese-speaking world.

    Don’t forget “LA Law” and Anglo soap opera Latino heartthrob “A Martinez”. What, you think his parents just gave him a single letter for his name?

  251. el topo [AKA "darryl revok"] says:
    @Jefferson
    The most famous German American of all time runs a meth empire in Albuquerque, New Mexico. He goes by the name of Heisenberg.

    I assume that Walter Hartwell White, a.k.a. Heisenberg, was supposed to be a WASP. But the actor who played him is indeed more than half German (from Bryan Cranston’s wikipedia entry: ” He is of Austrian, German, and Irish ancestry on his father’s side, while his maternal grandparents were immigrants from Germany.”)

    Other notably German names from the cast of Breaking Bad: Betsy Brandt and RJ Mitte.

    And, as someone noted on another thread, it was nice to see modern Germans portrayed briefly in the show in a non-stereotypical manner.

    • Replies: @BurplesonAFB

    it was nice to see modern Germans portrayed briefly in the show in a non-stereotypical manner.
     
    The Neo-Nazi meth crew?
  252. @syonredux

    What I don’t get is, if the Germans are so intrinsically great, where were the Germans in the period between the beginning of the world and 1700? When I read the history books, it’s mostly Greeks, Italians, and Frogs that do the heavy lifting before 1700.
     
    There were Germans writers and scientists who were quite prominent before 1700: Kepler, Wolfram von Eschenbach, Albertus Magnus, Leibniz (of course, his life did extend a bit into the 18th century: July 1, 1646 – November 14, 1716), Gottfried von Strassburg, etc

    You’re missing the biggest name of all: Albrecht Dürer. Perhaps the instrumental figure in bringing the Renaissance over the Alps.

  253. @peterike
    What I don’t get is, if the Germans are so intrinsically great, where were the Germans in the period between the beginning of the world and 1700?


    Yeah, they were just sitting around creating junk like this:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_art#/media/File:ThreeFoolishVirginsMagdeburg.jpg

    And this:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_art#/media/File:HMF_Duerer_Gruenewald_Harrich_Heller-Altar_DSC_6312.jpg

    And this:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross_of_Lothair#/media/File:Aachen_Germany_Domschatz_Cross-of-Lothair-01.jpg

    And this:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bamberger_Dom_BW_6.JPG

    Real peasant stuff.

    Inventing the printing press?

  254. @syonredux

    Well, the arts and sciences are the sphere of the Priestly class. The South was settled by-and-large by the Warrior class, the Scots-Irish* in the highlands and the Cavalier in the Low.
     
    If you want to spin it that way, feel free.It still doesn't alter the fact that the South has not done very well when it comes to turning out significant figures in the arts and the sciences.

    If you want to spin it that way, feel free.It still doesn’t alter the fact that the South has not done very well when it comes to turning out significant figures in the arts and the sciences.

    Nor did the great figures that Central Asia produced in the Arts and Sciences a thousand years ago avail them much when the Great Khan came passing through. Murray’s criteria are too narrow.

    • Replies: @syonredux

    If you want to spin it that way, feel free.It still doesn’t alter the fact that the South has not done very well when it comes to turning out significant figures in the arts and the sciences.

    Nor did the great figures that Central Asia produced in the Arts and Sciences a thousand years ago avail them much when the Great Khan came passing through. Murray’s criteria are too narrow.
     
    I don't know about that.Here's the book's full title:

    Human Accomplishment: The Pursuit of Excellence in the Arts and Sciences, 800 BC to 1950

    That seems rather expansive to me.....
  255. […] to unite together against our common enemies and yet Steve Sailer chooses to publish posts such as Where Germans Beat WASPS which seems designed to arouse hostility between white gentile groups. If you look at the comments […]

    • Replies: @iffen
    Poor Steve, anti-Semite or Zionist stooge?

    BTW, this is one of his best posts ever. Why? It lets us choose up sides and fight which is what got us to today!
  256. @jimbojones
    Guys, I don't want to be a spoilsport, but a lot of this racialist stuff is a bit hard to take seriously.

    So the Germans are some kind of supermen whose very Germanic Aryan essence dooms them to success. Where have I heard that before? Oh, right.
    What I don't get is, if the Germans are so intrinsically great, where were the Germans in the period between the beginning of the world and 1700? When I read the history books, it's mostly Greeks, Italians, and Frogs that do the heavy lifting before 1700. How come that paragon of German awesome, Frederick the Great, preferred to write in French, and spent much time corresponding with the philosophes?

    The Korean economist Ha-Joon Chang has some fine recent books. One of the points that he makes in one of his books is the following: Back in the day, the Germans were considered hopelessly lazy and stupid by the powers of the day. Ditto the Koreans at another point in history. And indeed, in 1955 South Korea was basically a hole in the ground. Today it is a premier industrial state and a powerful cultural force in the world. What happened there? Did the hapless Koreans suddenly "evolve"?

    Apart from the weird genetic determinism at its end, the piece Steve quotes is excellent. And it seems to confirm, in an elegant way, what we know - a society or a community which values cleanliness, industry, and so on, and manages to propagate its views across the generations, is doomed to succeed. On the other hand, yesterday someone linked to an article about the gypsies in the comments under one of Steve's pieces. And that article said that, yeah, if a society does not value cleanliness, industry, and so on, and manages to propagate its beliefs across generations, then its doomed to squalor and Hobbesian degradation.

    ‘In 1955 South Korea was basically a hole in the ground. Today it is a premier industrial state and a powerful cultural force in the world. What happened there? Did the hapless Koreans suddenly “evolve”?’

    Korea had historically been a relatively advanced country. Maybe not as much as China and Japan, which were the most advanced non-Western countries, but not bad. Mostly, it had (like China) overpopulated itself, it had fallen behind the west, and had become a Japanese colony. And then it suffered a devastating war, so that Korea by 1955 really was in rough shape. But it still had a culture and perhaps genotype conducive to success, so it then thrived.

    Japan and Germany were historically advanced countries that had been practically bombed into the stone age by 1945, only to become leading economic powers within a surprisingly brief span of time.

  257. German IQ scores are respectable but unremarkable, just about average by Western European standards.

    If there is a genetic element to their success, it may be more in the realm of personality and temperament than intelligence. A person with an IQ of 105 that is a diligent, conscientious, perfectionist workaholic is going to accomplish more than an equally intelligent person who lacks those traits.

  258. @Ivy
    So, if Swedes live to eat, Norwegians eat to live and Danes eat to drink, please add on for Finns.

    So, if Swedes live to eat, Norwegians eat to live and Danes eat to drink, please add on for Finns.

    Finns drink to sweat. In the sauna.


    Suomalaiset juovat jotta hiki. Saunassa.

  259. At this point I think the NYT’s trolling of Steve has expanded beyond Nick Kristof and become established corporate policy.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/15/opinion/let-syrians-settle-detroit.html

    Detroit, a once great city, has become an urban vacuum. Its population has fallen to around 700,000 from nearly 1.9 million in 1950. The city is estimated to have more than 70,000 abandoned buildings and 90,000 vacant lots. Meanwhile, desperate Syrians, victims of an unfathomable civil war, are fleeing to neighboring countries, with some 1.8 million in Turkey and 600,000 in Jordan.

    Syrian refugees would be an ideal community to realize this goal, as Arab-Americans are already a vibrant and successful presence in the Detroit metropolitan area.

    What confidence can we have that traumatized war refugees can be transformed into budding American entrepreneurs? We cannot know for sure.

    • Replies: @SPMoore8
    Let's see. It would require importing 1.2 MM Syrians to Detroit in order to bring the population to 1950 levels, maybe Eminem could do a rap video about "The Eight Miles to Wisdom", there wouldn't actually have to be any jobs, because the auto industry decline in Detroit has nothing to do with it, and besides we have unemployment, welfare, disability, and, if absolutely necessary, we can enlist UNRWA, the black population would get along famously with the Syrians, and we'd have a thriving population of Arabs living on the US Canadian border. Let's do it!
    , @Steve Sailer
    "The city is estimated to have more than 70,000 abandoned buildings and 90,000 vacant lots."

    Syrians have a long track record of turning buildings into vacant lots:

    http://www.shrc.org/en/?p=24438
  260. @peterike
    What I don’t get is, if the Germans are so intrinsically great, where were the Germans in the period between the beginning of the world and 1700?


    Yeah, they were just sitting around creating junk like this:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_art#/media/File:ThreeFoolishVirginsMagdeburg.jpg

    And this:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_art#/media/File:HMF_Duerer_Gruenewald_Harrich_Heller-Altar_DSC_6312.jpg

    And this:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross_of_Lothair#/media/File:Aachen_Germany_Domschatz_Cross-of-Lothair-01.jpg

    And this:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bamberger_Dom_BW_6.JPG

    Real peasant stuff.

    Oh, man, we could do this all night.

    Germans were all over Europe before 1700, doing things like this:

    And speaking of triptychs, there’s this:

    – which inspired Hindemith’s opera. The first is in Krakow, in Poland, the second is in Colmar, in France.

    At the same time, I have to agree with Jimbo, we really don’t need either genetic determinism or another round of German ethnic chauvinism.

  261. @jimbojones
    Guys, I don't want to be a spoilsport, but a lot of this racialist stuff is a bit hard to take seriously.

    So the Germans are some kind of supermen whose very Germanic Aryan essence dooms them to success. Where have I heard that before? Oh, right.
    What I don't get is, if the Germans are so intrinsically great, where were the Germans in the period between the beginning of the world and 1700? When I read the history books, it's mostly Greeks, Italians, and Frogs that do the heavy lifting before 1700. How come that paragon of German awesome, Frederick the Great, preferred to write in French, and spent much time corresponding with the philosophes?

    The Korean economist Ha-Joon Chang has some fine recent books. One of the points that he makes in one of his books is the following: Back in the day, the Germans were considered hopelessly lazy and stupid by the powers of the day. Ditto the Koreans at another point in history. And indeed, in 1955 South Korea was basically a hole in the ground. Today it is a premier industrial state and a powerful cultural force in the world. What happened there? Did the hapless Koreans suddenly "evolve"?

    Apart from the weird genetic determinism at its end, the piece Steve quotes is excellent. And it seems to confirm, in an elegant way, what we know - a society or a community which values cleanliness, industry, and so on, and manages to propagate its views across the generations, is doomed to succeed. On the other hand, yesterday someone linked to an article about the gypsies in the comments under one of Steve's pieces. And that article said that, yeah, if a society does not value cleanliness, industry, and so on, and manages to propagate its beliefs across generations, then its doomed to squalor and Hobbesian degradation.

    In fact, the fact that Korea was able overcome its devastated condition so quickly, while many other countries that were holes in the ground remained holes in the ground, seems to indicate something impressive about Korean culture and/or genotype.

  262. @Steve Sailer
    Wouldn't Sir Walter Scott's novels have referred to the ancestors of American Scots-Irish as "Saxons" in contrast to Celtic Highlanders?

    The Highlanders were not especially celtic. The Vikings essentially obliterated the original inhabitants of northern scotland and resettled the area themselves.

  263. @pinto


    A lot of the Scots-Irish pass themselves off as WASPS. They are WASPS in a technical sense. Anyway … they definitely wanted to distinguish themselves from hillbillies.
     
    Are they technically WASPS?

    I mean Anglo or Saxon. I bet neither.

    They are celts.

    The average indigenous Englishman is still has around 50% Celtic blood, i.e. Briton DNA haplogroups. The Angles, Saxons, and Jutes conquered but did not thoroughly displace the inhabitants of Roman Britain. The degree of Celticness runs from about 40% to 60% on an east to west cline.

  264. @Boomstick
    At this point I think the NYT's trolling of Steve has expanded beyond Nick Kristof and become established corporate policy.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/15/opinion/let-syrians-settle-detroit.html

    Detroit, a once great city, has become an urban vacuum. Its population has fallen to around 700,000 from nearly 1.9 million in 1950. The city is estimated to have more than 70,000 abandoned buildings and 90,000 vacant lots. Meanwhile, desperate Syrians, victims of an unfathomable civil war, are fleeing to neighboring countries, with some 1.8 million in Turkey and 600,000 in Jordan.
    ...
    Syrian refugees would be an ideal community to realize this goal, as Arab-Americans are already a vibrant and successful presence in the Detroit metropolitan area.
    ...
    What confidence can we have that traumatized war refugees can be transformed into budding American entrepreneurs? We cannot know for sure.
     

    Let’s see. It would require importing 1.2 MM Syrians to Detroit in order to bring the population to 1950 levels, maybe Eminem could do a rap video about “The Eight Miles to Wisdom”, there wouldn’t actually have to be any jobs, because the auto industry decline in Detroit has nothing to do with it, and besides we have unemployment, welfare, disability, and, if absolutely necessary, we can enlist UNRWA, the black population would get along famously with the Syrians, and we’d have a thriving population of Arabs living on the US Canadian border. Let’s do it!

  265. @peterike
    What I don’t get is, if the Germans are so intrinsically great, where were the Germans in the period between the beginning of the world and 1700?


    Yeah, they were just sitting around creating junk like this:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_art#/media/File:ThreeFoolishVirginsMagdeburg.jpg

    And this:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_art#/media/File:HMF_Duerer_Gruenewald_Harrich_Heller-Altar_DSC_6312.jpg

    And this:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross_of_Lothair#/media/File:Aachen_Germany_Domschatz_Cross-of-Lothair-01.jpg

    And this:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bamberger_Dom_BW_6.JPG

    Real peasant stuff.

    Albrecht Durer was an ethnic Hungarian.

  266. I’d say being called Adolfo is the least of this guy’s problems.

    • Replies: @Ozymandias
    "I’d say being called Adolfo is the least of this guy’s problems."

    There's nothing wrong with the name "Reinhardt." It means brave, strong, or wise counsel. Often found among Ashkenazi of German origin.
  267. @syonredux

    Well, the arts and sciences are the sphere of the Priestly class. The South was settled by-and-large by the Warrior class, the Scots-Irish* in the highlands and the Cavalier in the Low.
     
    If you want to spin it that way, feel free.It still doesn't alter the fact that the South has not done very well when it comes to turning out significant figures in the arts and the sciences.

    @syon

    “If you want to spin it that way, feel free.It still doesn’t alter the fact that the South has not done very well when it comes to turning out significant figures in the arts and the sciences.”

    If you want to say the sciences, then I would agree, but the arts?
    The South has had many, many, excellent novelists and writers. Even some Northern writers like John Berendt have set their novels in the South. As I told a Jewish New York friend of mine in a debate about 15 years ago, “they don’t write great literature about factory workers in Buffalo”.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    New York journalism in the early 1960s was jammed with reporters from the South who wanted to write the Great American Novel. "True Grit" and "Bonfire of the Vanities" are a couple of products of this urge, although a lot of other Southern writing talent got worn down drinking on 52nd Street.
    , @syonredux

    “If you want to spin it that way, feel free.It still doesn’t alter the fact that the South has not done very well when it comes to turning out significant figures in the arts and the sciences.”

    If you want to say the sciences, then I would agree, but the arts?
    The South has had many, many, excellent novelists and writers.
     
    Well, again, using Murray's pre-1950 timeframe, the South has not done especially well in literature.I've already noted that Poe was the sole major literary figure who was a Southerner in the antebellum period.In the post-bellum period (say, 1865-19i4), the pattern stays the same.The North produces several major writers: Henry James, William James, William Dean Howells, Edith Whorton.But the South has only one, the slightly ambiguous Mark Twain*.

    The 1914-1950 was a very fertile epoch for American letters, and the South witnessed its own renaissance (although Allen Tate slyly observed that it was really more of a Southern naissance ).

    Outside the South, the major figures are:


    Eliot (yes, born in Missouri, but his family was a New England transplant and very conscious of its roots), Pound, Frost, Wallace Stevens, William Carlos Williams, O'Neil, Hemingway, Fitzgerald, Stein, Edmund Wilson, Dreiser, Cather, Arthur Miller.

    In the South: Faulkner, Tennessee Williams.Perhaps Robert Penn Warren and Thomas Wolfe**.Figures like Allen Tate and John Crowe Ransom are usually put in the secondary category.







    *Missouri is a melange of Mid-Western and Southern characteristics.Twain himself was of Southern ancestry, but his writing career was spent in California, Connecticut, abroad in Europe (Austria, London, etc).


    ** Wolfe's reputation has been in a steep decline since the 195os. Once everyone became aware of how critical Maxwell Perkins editorial work was , Wolfe took a hard hit.
  268. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    “Spain itself has always been a backwater when it comes to scientific and technical achievement.”

    And yet, no one else is ever going to be able to say this: “The Magellan-Elcano circumnavigation was the first voyage around the world in human history. It was a Spanish expedition that sailed from Seville in 1519…

    These men were the first to circumnavigate the globe… They arrived in Spain three years after they left, in 1522. …

    The Spanish Armada de Molucca consisted of five ships with 270 men… The circumnavigation was completed by one ship, the Victoria, under the command of Juan Sebastián Elcano and a crew of 18 men.”

    Eighteen out of 270 men. It took guts to be in those early Spanish and Portuguese expeditions. Elcano was Basque; Iberians as well.

    Not only had they circumnavigated the globe, then knew where they had been and had kept accurate time; they were off a day, as expected. It had a great impact. No one can ever take that from them.

    You can find the names of the crewmen who completed the Victoria’s circumnavigation. There was also one Italian “passenger” who returned, Chevalier