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How Far Back Did Americans Accept Interracial Marriage?

We are constantly lectured by unpaid interns at online magazines about just how virulently sexist and racist America was until, well, some dim point in the distant past before they started paying attention, such as 2005. In reality, a lot of attitudes changed quickly and fairly smoothly a long time ago due to the Sixties social revolution.

For example, the propensity toward interracial marriage among people under 35 way back in 1980 was already 72% as great as it is today.

From Priceonomics:

Why Is Interracial Marriage on the Rise?

By Dan Kopf · 11,234 views · More stats …

So what would America’s intermarriage rate look like if the country had not become more diverse? In the chart [above], the blue trend line is our estimate of the rate of intermarriage if the demographics of the young married population had not changed since 1980 – the orange line shows the actual increase.

While there is still an increase, it is not even close to what we saw in the first chart.

Our “no-demographic change” estimate suggests that intermarriage would have only risen to 6.7% if demographics had not changed – a 1.9% increase, dramatically smaller than the 8.6% increase actually observed.

In other words, changing beliefs is responsible for only a fraction of the increasing intermarriage rate.

In other other words, controlling for demographics, the propensity toward interracial marriage (counting Hispanics as a race) was 72% as great in 1980 as it is today. In other words, there was already quite a lot of propensity toward interracial marriage in 1980, 36 years ago. What has changed most since 1980 is not social attitudes but numbers.

 
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  1. When, Steve?

    When White people lost pride in themselves, and their race!

    Read More
    • Replies: @melendwyr

    When White people lost pride in themselves, and their race!
     
    SJWs have lots of pride in themselves. Guess again.

    Which race would that be, exactly? Do you think the British people are (or were) all of the same ethnic group?
    , @Realist
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  2. Anecdotes are of limited value, but my wife is a visible minority and in the 26 years we’ve been together, living on both coasts and in the Midwest, people have expressed disapproval exactly zero times. I do see people look, but they’re looking at her and looking at me and then looking to see what our kids look like.

    Read More
  3. In other other words, controlling for demographics, the propensity toward interracial marriage (counting Hispanics as a race)

    Which is stupid. Nobody cared about intermarriage with White/mostly White Hispanics.Cf Lucy and Ricky……Now, if Ricky had been a Black guy, things would have been rather different……

    Read More
    • Replies: @SPMoore8
    Lucy and the Kingfish from "Amos and Andy" -- that would have been a great show.

    Of course they would have spent all their time trying to upstage each other .......
  4. Marriage is probably the wrong term to describe interracial relationships because black men do not marry much but they do procreate a lot. They also kill white partners at a rate 12 times greater than white women in relationships with white men.

    I would note that middle class white men seem to find Oriental ( as opposed to the useless term Asian) women suitable partners while lower class white women have no objection to being knocked up by black men.

    Read More
    • Agree: Travis
    • LOL: Clyde
    • Replies: @L Woods
    The prevalence of prole black male/white female "couples" calls the whole narrative about racism being a low-class thing into pretty serious doubt all by itself. You'd think that if anyone would put a stop to this it'd be down-and-out white men with little to lose, but they accept their cuckoldry with remarkable docility.
  5. You have your own little purse of irritating ‘But Martin Luther was a republican!’ tricks up your sleeve…

    I agree with your overall point.

    But I think that the difference now is…

    My relatives who married blacks back in the 1940s and 1950s (of which I had several) were not like Important.

    Had they been exceptionally beautiful women or intelligent, I’m sure someone would have said something.

    But now no one says anything when the most gorgeous, funny, nice white people date god knows what. If anything, they are encouraged.

    That’s the problem!

    Read More
  6. I married an Asian guy half a decade ago and I remember maybe a couple nasty comments about him being in it for a green card? The response ranged from, “oh, isn’t it nice that you are dating someone you went to school with,” to alarming progressive fawning over the whole thing. I don’t remember any comments about his race. It honestly wasn’t until I started spending time on the alt right that I realized anyone had a problem with it.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Marina
    I just remembered. My grandmother was surprised when I referred to my marriage as interracial. She thinks black-white is interracial. Marrying a Chinese guy is like marrying Italian: different than our ancestry, but not that different.
  7. Answer to question depends on whether Jews are White Folks. ;)

    Read More
    • Replies: @SFG
    Abie's Irish Rose came out in 1928, so presumably it was still an issue back then.
  8. Anyone who treats Hispanics as a race is a fool. Are we really dupposed to believe that Cameron Diaz, Sammy Sosa, Evo Morales and Alberto Fujimori are all the same race?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Is Fujimori considered Hispanic in Peru and Latin America? His campaign song was "El Ritmo del Chino" i.e. "The Rhythm of the Chinaman".

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lykmok5LzMY
    , @anon
    amerindians are a race a lot of hispanics have little anerindian blood and some are 110% hispanic cultures usually have about 16 different terms for the different types of admixture, upper class south americans are european spanishas white as you or i
  9. @unit472
    Marriage is probably the wrong term to describe interracial relationships because black men do not marry much but they do procreate a lot. They also kill white partners at a rate 12 times greater than white women in relationships with white men.

    I would note that middle class white men seem to find Oriental ( as opposed to the useless term Asian) women suitable partners while lower class white women have no objection to being knocked up by black men.

    The prevalence of prole black male/white female “couples” calls the whole narrative about racism being a low-class thing into pretty serious doubt all by itself. You’d think that if anyone would put a stop to this it’d be down-and-out white men with little to lose, but they accept their cuckoldry with remarkable docility.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous

    The prevalence of prole black male/white female “couples” calls the whole narrative about racism being a low-class thing into pretty serious doubt all by itself. You’d think that if anyone would put a stop to this it’d be down-and-out white men with little to lose, but they accept their cuckoldry with remarkable docility.
     
    Black and white couples are rare above lower-middle class. While white and East Asian couples are rare below the higher-middle class.
    , @Charles Erwin Wilson
    We have a defective education system with a delivery mechanism called teachers. A great many of those teachers pretend that propaganda is knowledge, and critical thinking means endorsing the party line. But you condemn the pupil as blameworthy?

    Do not mistake the scope of the focus, or misdirection of attention, for docility. They are simply ignorant, and they have not been roused.
    , @Corvinus
    "You’d think that if anyone would put a stop to this it’d be down-and-out white men with little to lose, but they accept their cuckoldry with remarkable docility."

    So white men are cucks for refusing to put their foot down regarding interracial marriage? Wow, just wow.

    Praytell, what are YOU doing to stop this abomination from spreading in your neck of the woods?
    , @Whiskey
    Recent DNA analysis on the Melenguens (sp?) shows that they are descended from Black men and White women in the late 1600s. So this has been going on for a long time. Indeed the Black male pairing at a time when White men had a huge women shortage and even the lowest woman could easily snare a higher status man, shows where the arrow of desire goes.

    By contrast there is almost no White male and Black female pairing, even at upper class levels. Almost no White man can find someone like Michelle Obama attractive.

    In the inter-racial marriage stakes, White men come out the losers at least on the lower levels of society.
    , @Ed
    That doesn't ring true from what I see in my working class area. Sure some white guys get knocked up by blacks but I mostly see young white couples. None of the bartenders at the watering holes I frequent are with blacks. There are plenty of white women for lower class white men. It's also not uncommon to see a white woman with a mixed race child & a white child around these parts.
  10. There are a lot of covariables in play. Here is the set-up question they ask and to which they devise the graph:

    So what would America’s intermarriage rate look like if the country had not become more diverse?

    What are some of the societal consequences arising due to diversity? Paging Dr. Putnam. Group norms and coherion are eroded and people are left as isolated entities only having a relationship to government. Keep this constant but pretend the demographics haven’t changed and you’ll get more random chance in terms of people interacting and thus leading to romantic relationships. Put the sense of community back into the equation, because diversity has not destroyed the community, and you reduce the randomness of relationships.

    Without diversity increasing there are no propagandists out there actively normalizing inter-racial relationships, hence we would expect a lower rate of such relationships.

    If the issue here is how people view such relationships, two thoughts come to mind.

    1.) Why not measure the rate of Black-Asian relationships? Whites have been the target audience for a lot of propaganda on this issue, so by testing against B-A pairings, which we don’t see in our official propaganda, we can get an understanding of the effects attributable to propaganda and what arises from shifting cultural attitudes.

    2.) What is meant by acceptance? People understand the “correct” response and so give that response. They see no upside to arguing with a poll taker or being judged by a poll taker. Secondly, because society is becoming atomized, there is less interest in working to uphold community standards, so “let the other guy do what he wants to do” is an attitude which is expressed more often – if you feel you have no stake in the community you won’t uphold values. The better test is whether people feel the same when they, or their children, are the subjects involved in the inter-racial marriage.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonym
    It seems that some of the people who most hate the unity of whites and want them to submit are those have either married someone of another race or are themselves of mixed race. See Cenk, Obama, the #Illridewithyou woman, etc.

    Then you get the exceptions that prove the rule like Derb.
    , @Corvinus
    "Without diversity increasing there are no propagandists out there actively normalizing inter-racial relationships, hence we would expect a lower rate of such relationships."

    Instead, we get propagandists such as yourself making the case that interracial relationships are other than normal, and that the result has been less social cohesion. Tell that to your European ancestors. They had considered relations outside of one's ethnic group to be way outside the norm, and claimed that significant social damage would result. Yet, it is common for Americans to have multi-European heritage. Should they be condemned for the sins of their grandparents or great-grandparents?
  11. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @AndrewR
    Anyone who treats Hispanics as a race is a fool. Are we really dupposed to believe that Cameron Diaz, Sammy Sosa, Evo Morales and Alberto Fujimori are all the same race?

    Is Fujimori considered Hispanic in Peru and Latin America? His campaign song was “El Ritmo del Chino” i.e. “The Rhythm of the Chinaman”.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AndrewR
    Obviously many Peruvians thought he wasn't too alien to elect as their president.
    , @BucephalusXYZ
    So far as I can tell, I don't think anyone is "considered Hispanic" in Peru or Latin America. The "Hispanic" classification seems entirely an artifact of the US racial spoils system.
  12. @Palerider1861
    When, Steve?

    When White people lost pride in themselves, and their race!

    When White people lost pride in themselves, and their race!

    SJWs have lots of pride in themselves. Guess again.

    Which race would that be, exactly? Do you think the British people are (or were) all of the same ethnic group?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    "Do you think the British people are (or were) all of the same ethnic group?"

    Uh yes, yes they were. At one time.
    , @Alec Leamas

    Which race would that be, exactly? Do you think the British people are (or were) all of the same ethnic group?
     
    You're slipping the rabbit into the hat here. Race is broader than ethnicity. Peoples of the home nations needn't be of a single ethnicity to all fall within a single race. IIRC, genetic studies of those same peoples find them near genetically indistinguishable despite long political or social divisions.
  13. So what would America’s intermarriage rate look like if the country had not become more diverse?

    What would the interracial rate look like if the first slave transported to America murdered his master and impregnated all the North American women within a 2000 mile radius in North America and the native peoples warred against his progeny for a couple of centuries?

    I ran Dan Kopf through the Google translator and got Dick Head as the translation.

    Read More
  14. @Joe Magarac
    Answer to question depends on whether Jews are White Folks. ;)

    Abie’s Irish Rose came out in 1928, so presumably it was still an issue back then.

    Read More
  15. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @L Woods
    The prevalence of prole black male/white female "couples" calls the whole narrative about racism being a low-class thing into pretty serious doubt all by itself. You'd think that if anyone would put a stop to this it'd be down-and-out white men with little to lose, but they accept their cuckoldry with remarkable docility.

    The prevalence of prole black male/white female “couples” calls the whole narrative about racism being a low-class thing into pretty serious doubt all by itself. You’d think that if anyone would put a stop to this it’d be down-and-out white men with little to lose, but they accept their cuckoldry with remarkable docility.

    Black and white couples are rare above lower-middle class. While white and East Asian couples are rare below the higher-middle class.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    My impression is that above a certain class level, white-black married couples reverse the gender disparity and become more like white guy with beard and black (or blackish) wife: e.g., Paul Krugman and his wife.
    , @Anonym
    I was about to disagree because of Asian pairings with low-middle and working class men, and then realized that these examples are mostly South East Asian, not East Asian.
    , @Busby
    You must be unfamiliar with life in the military.

    Mixed marriages have been common place for over forty years.
  16. Since they count Hispanics as a race, the ‘findings’ are not worth much. The real nitty gritty on social attitudes is how non-Blacks view marriage with Blacks ; and what the MSM won’t touch on is that Whites are the most willing to marry Blacks and Amerindians while various NearEastern and Asian ethnics are least willing.

    Read More
  17. @melendwyr

    When White people lost pride in themselves, and their race!
     
    SJWs have lots of pride in themselves. Guess again.

    Which race would that be, exactly? Do you think the British people are (or were) all of the same ethnic group?

    “Do you think the British people are (or were) all of the same ethnic group?”

    Uh yes, yes they were. At one time.

    Read More
    • Disagree: AndrewR
    • Replies: @melendwyr
    There were at least three distinct ethnic groups in Britain, and I've heard claims that there were five or more, all immigrant-invaders who dominated the previous peoples. They more or less co-existed, with social class stratification, for hundreds to thousands of years, depending.

    H.P. Lovecraft wrote "The Shadow over Innsmouth" at least partly in response to discovering that he had a Welsh grandmother. (Gasp!) They weren't considered 'white' at the time.
  18. Keith Vaz [AKA "Andrea Dworkin"] says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    I live in a large diverse urban area. You almost get a feel about a low class, low IQ trashy white woman who has black partners. I think because she is so dumb she tends to find other men of her own race hard to understand. Hence she loves r&b amd trash culture as it doesn’t make her feel dumb. Pram-mulatto-haha.

    Read More
  19. At least in rural parts of the country, I don’t think there was ever too much stigma against white male and American Indian female couplings. Plenty of French fur trappers took Indians wives. In the South, plenty of whites claim to have a touch of Indian blood. Usually it’s people with ancestors from swampy or mountainous areas, who claim to be something like 1/64 Cherokee.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Neil Templeton
    "El Indio" apparently begat Ms. Machado's daughter, and no one seems to mind.
  20. @Anonymous

    The prevalence of prole black male/white female “couples” calls the whole narrative about racism being a low-class thing into pretty serious doubt all by itself. You’d think that if anyone would put a stop to this it’d be down-and-out white men with little to lose, but they accept their cuckoldry with remarkable docility.
     
    Black and white couples are rare above lower-middle class. While white and East Asian couples are rare below the higher-middle class.

    My impression is that above a certain class level, white-black married couples reverse the gender disparity and become more like white guy with beard and black (or blackish) wife: e.g., Paul Krugman and his wife.

    Read More
    • Replies: @iSteveFan
    When I think of high class pairing, I think about former Defense Secretary Cohen.
    , @Blobby5
    Or Roger Ebert, if he had a chin to grow a beard on.
    , @anonitron1
    "Met in grad school" seems to be the typical story behind white male/black female relationships. And more often than not the woman has Caribbean/straight-up African parents.
    , @Triumph104
    Black wife/white husband are 44% less likely to divorce, are more educated, and have a higher median income than white/white spouses. I would guess that black wife/white husband are also older when they marry.

    Black husband/white wife are twice as likely to divorce as white/white.

    About half of whites intermarriages are with Hispanics. Over 3/4 of Hispanics intermarry with whites.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interracial_marriage_in_the_United_States
    http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2012/02/16/the-rise-of-intermarriage/
    , @The Practical Conservative
    WM/BW marriage is more likely to be middle class or upper middle. BM/WW marriage is more likely to be lower middle or poverty-class. There's more BM/WW marriage, but the gap is shrinking due to marriage being more tied to college education and/or IT/STEM background these days, since that is where a lot of the family supporting jobs are. And black women are more likely to be in those realms, so the interracial marriage gap is shrinking.
  21. @L Woods
    The prevalence of prole black male/white female "couples" calls the whole narrative about racism being a low-class thing into pretty serious doubt all by itself. You'd think that if anyone would put a stop to this it'd be down-and-out white men with little to lose, but they accept their cuckoldry with remarkable docility.

    We have a defective education system with a delivery mechanism called teachers. A great many of those teachers pretend that propaganda is knowledge, and critical thinking means endorsing the party line. But you condemn the pupil as blameworthy?

    Do not mistake the scope of the focus, or misdirection of attention, for docility. They are simply ignorant, and they have not been roused.

    Read More
  22. This article strikes me as being incoherent…

    The raw numbers show that over the last several decades, the number of intermarriages among young couples has nearly tripled. But how much progress has really been made?

    It’s defining “progress” as actual intermarriages, not attitudes to intermarriage. It then makes the sensible observation that there cannot be many intermarriages in more homogenous populations, but then dismisses increased intermarriage since 1980 as an artifact of demographic change, concluding that we haven’t actually made much “progress”. Am I confused or are the authors? Maybe it’s me; I don’t know.

    Other points:

    1- It doesn’t address possible cause and effect between demographic change and attitudes. Maybe more people are accepting of intermarriage because “intermarriage” used to mean white-black in people’s minds, whereas now it means white-Asian and oh-yeah-maybe-black-is-okay-too.

    2- It makes no mention of the fact that as we import more Asians and Hispanics, they are becoming less likely to intermarry, ie integrate!

    3- No attempt to address the one-drop question. I bet “whites” are far more likely to marry “blacks” when one or both are already mixed. Are black blacks and white whites intermarrying?

    4- No geographic angles. In large parts of flyover America, there still aren’t that many minorities, so doesn’t the homogeneity issue still exist?

    5- All Hispanics are the same?

    These issues aside, I think the real story here is that the authors define progress as actual racial mixing, not attitudes or changes in the law. What does this say about our future?

    Read More
  23. Answer to question depends on whether Jews are White Folks. ;)

    And the answer to that is “depends on which answer benefits the Jews.”

    Speaking of, Jews sweep their interracial marriage rates under the rug (state secrets are easier to suss out) because they’re low, like really low. Which calls into question their lefty bona fides. They try to “look a squirrel” the suckers into accepting “intermarriage” as a substitute, which is pretty hilarious.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Joe Magarac

    And the answer to that is "depends on which answer benefits the Jews."
     
    A guy who gets it.
    , @Anonymous
    They try to “look a squirrel” the suckers into accepting “intermarriage” as a substitute, which is pretty hilarious.

    I don't understand this sentence. Is it missing a word? Intermarriage a substitute for what?
  24. “At the Supreme Court this week, Ted Olson, the former Solicitor-General, was one of many to invoke comparisons with Loving v. Virginia, the 1967 case that struck down laws prohibiting interracial marriage. But such laws were never more than a localized American perversion of marriage. In almost all other common-law jurisdictions, from the British West Indies to Australia, there was no such prohibition. Indeed, under the Raj, it’s estimated that one in three British men in the Indian subcontinent took a local wife. “Miscegenation” is a 19th century American neologism. When the Supreme Court struck down laws on interracial marriage, it was not embarking on a wild unprecedented experiment but merely restoring the United States to the community of civilized nations within its own legal tradition. ”

    – Mark Steyn on gay marriage, 2013

    http://www.ocregister.com/articles/marriage-501918-most-american.html

    Read More
    • Replies: @AndrewR
    It's my impression that Anglo women were never nearly as plentiful in Oz or India or the West Indies as they were in North America, so men there often had little choice but to marry natives.
  25. I guess if intermarriage means marriage with the current “Hispanic” Miss Venezuela,, the I’m in favor of intermarriage.

    There are so many absurdities in using gross percentages:

    1) how much involves non-whites marrying other non-whites of a different race?
    2) how much involves whites marrying white Hispanics?
    3) how much is college educated whites marrying college educated East Asians?

    BTW, I’m over 50, and the only prejudice I can remember from the 70s was whites marrying blacks or swarthy looking Middle Eastern types. No one was upset that Fred White Guy married Sally Hernandez or Jill Japanese-American. Nor do I remember anyone getting upset over Desi marrying Lucy.

    Read More
  26. “In other words, there was already quite a lot of propensity toward interracial marriage in 1980, 36 years ago.”

    There was a move in that direction by 1980, although there was still a significant number of people who believed intermarriage was other than natural. It was a generational phenomenon. Those born in the 1960′s certainly found interracial marriages acceptable by that decade, compared to those born in the 1920′s, 1930′s, 1940′s, or 1950′s, who found it deplorable. This chart shows the progression since 1980 regarding mixed-race marriages. It appears that 1 in 7 marriages was interracial or interethnic by 2006–double the intermarriage rate of the 1980′s and six times the intermarriage rate of the 1960′s.

    http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0922160.html

    “In reality, a lot of attitudes changed quickly and fairly smoothly a long time ago due to the Sixties social revolution.”

    Steve, come on now. Your statement is revisionist history. Are you going SJW on us? Never go SJW. “The Jeffersons” was on CBS for 11 seasons and was one of a few shows to feature an interracial couples in this decade. This article from the LA Times conveys the general feeling that interracial couples faced hostility and disdain.

    http://articles.latimes.com/1991-07-07/news/mn-2950_1_interracial-couple

    And we still get idiot comments like Palerider1861 who believe that whites essential soil themselves and their race for merely exercising their liberty to mate and procreate.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Bigboy
    "Steve, come on now. Your statement is revisionist history. Are you going SJW on us? Never go SJW. 'The Jeffersons' was on CBS for 11 seasons and was one of a few shows to feature an interracial couples in this decade. This article from the LA Times conveys the general feeling that interracial couples faced hostility and disdain."

    That would be black/white interracial relationships just like the ones profiled in the article you linked to. Non-black/white couples are another story.

    When I was a child and "The Jeffersons" was popular, Asian/white interracial couples didn't seem to get too many white people upset.....But black/white ones....Oh boy!
    , @Boomstick
    I think the segregationist South was finally defeated by around 1980. In 1965 they were still a force to be reckoned with. George Wallace kept the idea alive for a while, for reasons not exclusively to do with race, but by 1980 the KKK was a punchline and no politicians of significance were segregationist. The old segregationist Southern politicians got a pass for the remainder of their careers and their past was politely overlooked, so long as they got on board with the new thinking. That was a good approach; carrying a grudge against them would have forced them to remain segregationist for the remainder of their lives. The same was largely true of the broader society. Some strategic amnesia went a long ways. Racial intermarriage naturally went up after that.
  27. @Anonymous

    The prevalence of prole black male/white female “couples” calls the whole narrative about racism being a low-class thing into pretty serious doubt all by itself. You’d think that if anyone would put a stop to this it’d be down-and-out white men with little to lose, but they accept their cuckoldry with remarkable docility.
     
    Black and white couples are rare above lower-middle class. While white and East Asian couples are rare below the higher-middle class.

    I was about to disagree because of Asian pairings with low-middle and working class men, and then realized that these examples are mostly South East Asian, not East Asian.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Bill P
    Lots of white enlisted men married Japanese and Koreans back in the day. Most of these men were working class.

    Honestly mixed marriage seems less common to me today than it did in the 80s. Relative to the number of non-whites that is -- of course the overall numbers are higher.
  28. @L Woods
    The prevalence of prole black male/white female "couples" calls the whole narrative about racism being a low-class thing into pretty serious doubt all by itself. You'd think that if anyone would put a stop to this it'd be down-and-out white men with little to lose, but they accept their cuckoldry with remarkable docility.

    “You’d think that if anyone would put a stop to this it’d be down-and-out white men with little to lose, but they accept their cuckoldry with remarkable docility.”

    So white men are cucks for refusing to put their foot down regarding interracial marriage? Wow, just wow.

    Praytell, what are YOU doing to stop this abomination from spreading in your neck of the woods?

    Read More
    • Replies: @iSteveFan
    I think he was expressing his surprise that these white males no longer seem to have the natural human tendency to frown upon women in their group mingling with men from outside groups.
  29. @TangoMan
    There are a lot of covariables in play. Here is the set-up question they ask and to which they devise the graph:

    So what would America’s intermarriage rate look like if the country had not become more diverse?
     
    What are some of the societal consequences arising due to diversity? Paging Dr. Putnam. Group norms and coherion are eroded and people are left as isolated entities only having a relationship to government. Keep this constant but pretend the demographics haven't changed and you'll get more random chance in terms of people interacting and thus leading to romantic relationships. Put the sense of community back into the equation, because diversity has not destroyed the community, and you reduce the randomness of relationships.

    Without diversity increasing there are no propagandists out there actively normalizing inter-racial relationships, hence we would expect a lower rate of such relationships.

    If the issue here is how people view such relationships, two thoughts come to mind.

    1.) Why not measure the rate of Black-Asian relationships? Whites have been the target audience for a lot of propaganda on this issue, so by testing against B-A pairings, which we don't see in our official propaganda, we can get an understanding of the effects attributable to propaganda and what arises from shifting cultural attitudes.

    2.) What is meant by acceptance? People understand the "correct" response and so give that response. They see no upside to arguing with a poll taker or being judged by a poll taker. Secondly, because society is becoming atomized, there is less interest in working to uphold community standards, so "let the other guy do what he wants to do" is an attitude which is expressed more often - if you feel you have no stake in the community you won't uphold values. The better test is whether people feel the same when they, or their children, are the subjects involved in the inter-racial marriage.

    It seems that some of the people who most hate the unity of whites and want them to submit are those have either married someone of another race or are themselves of mixed race. See Cenk, Obama, the #Illridewithyou woman, etc.

    Then you get the exceptions that prove the rule like Derb.

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  30. Don’t know about your parts, but where I live, even nice white ladies understand what kind of women marry and/or have babies with black guys.

    Middle-class and higher white women overwhelmingly – but quietly – look down on marrying blacks. It’s fascinating to watch because these are the same women who love Oprah and never shut up about their love of diversity and other cultures. However, they definitely send signals to their daughters about black men.

    It’s the same with them magically choosing to live in white neighborhoods despite being color-blind. Basically, they let their daughters know that dating black guys is sign of being white trash and there’s nothing worse than being white trash.

    All of this reminds me of a friend of mine in college who introduced me to a game he played when we used to go a particularly cheap grocery store: Who can count the most mulatto kids with white moms. Winner gets a six-pack.

    You have to wonder about the long-term genetics of all of this. Will poor and working-class whites just fade into the Hispanic and, to a lesser degree, black populations, leaving only middle-class and up whites? What a wousy race that’d be.

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    • Replies: @AndrewR
    So only "lower class" "whites" marry "Hispanics"?
    , @Corvinus
    "Middle-class and higher white women overwhelmingly – but quietly – look down on marrying blacks."

    Any data to back up your claim? Because all you have is YOUR observation.

    "Basically, they let their daughters know that dating black guys is sign of being white trash and there’s nothing worse than being white trash."

    Dating someone who is less than their own social standing, regardless of race, could be considered "trash".
    , @L Woods
    They may not marry or seriously date black men, but they most certainly add them to their litany of pre-marital liaisons. Such things are very difficult to verify in any sort of scientifically valid manner for obvious reasons, but I've seen and heard more than enough in the way of anecdotes over the years to convince me of that.
    , @Stealth
    Your last paragraph brings something to mind that I thought the other day:

    As long as the offspring of B/W interracial couplings consider themselves black, then the black population will become whiter, not the reverse. It seems that a lot of mixed race AA's really do go the extra mile to prove themselves sufficiently black, and that includes taking black romantic partners. The president himself has been mentioned as an example of this.

    Obama's daughters are at least one quarter white. If they have children with black men, that white heritage will be passed on into the black population. If they have children with white men, their children will consider themselves black, and the process will merely be delayed for a generation. If this continues, presuming we don't import a large new African diaspora, the "black" Americans of the future might bear a striking resemblance to Shaun King.

    , @Charles Erwin Wilson

    What a wousy race that’d be.
     
    Regression to mediocrity? Galton already prophesied the same.
    http://galton.org/essays/1880-1889/galton-1886-jaigi-regression-stature.pdf
  31. @Svigor

    Answer to question depends on whether Jews are White Folks. ;)
     
    And the answer to that is "depends on which answer benefits the Jews."

    Speaking of, Jews sweep their interracial marriage rates under the rug (state secrets are easier to suss out) because they're low, like really low. Which calls into question their lefty bona fides. They try to "look a squirrel" the suckers into accepting "intermarriage" as a substitute, which is pretty hilarious.

    And the answer to that is “depends on which answer benefits the Jews.”

    A guy who gets it.

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  32. @Anonymous
    Is Fujimori considered Hispanic in Peru and Latin America? His campaign song was "El Ritmo del Chino" i.e. "The Rhythm of the Chinaman".

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lykmok5LzMY

    Obviously many Peruvians thought he wasn’t too alien to elect as their president.

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  33. The only mutual attraction I experienced from about 14 through college years outside my Caucasian race was to Japanese guys, three spaced apart by several years. But I think we realized the relationships had no where to go, mostly because of their parents. I didn’t tell my parents about them at all but doubt seriously if they’d have approved either.

    Black guys I’ve always considered vastly too “other”, even the lighter skinned and white acting ones. Never attracted to them and in fact always avoided them whenever possible though I have worked with them without any problems.

    Married a great white guy and think it’s probably best to stay in ones own race, though I do still think whites with Asians might work.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AndrewR
    My sister dated an boy from Mumbai for four years in college. Our family knew from the beginning but whenever his parents visited my sister was just introduced as a friend.

    He broke up with her supposedly because she smoke too much weed, then eventually had an arranged marriage. He now makes millions a year as an investment banker in London.

  34. As recently as 1997 half of Americans still were against black white relationships, versus it being universally accepted now, how is that not an indicator or changing attitudes, plus look at TV shows in the 90s that were targeted at teens like party of five, damsons Creek and buffy, the lead couples were all white, and city of angels, you’ve got mail, and titanic were also monoracial couples.

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  35. @Anonym
    I was about to disagree because of Asian pairings with low-middle and working class men, and then realized that these examples are mostly South East Asian, not East Asian.

    Lots of white enlisted men married Japanese and Koreans back in the day. Most of these men were working class.

    Honestly mixed marriage seems less common to me today than it did in the 80s. Relative to the number of non-whites that is — of course the overall numbers are higher.

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    • Replies: @White Guy In Japan
    Back in the day, Japan and South Korea were fairly poor countries. Some of the women may have seen marrying a GI as a step up. Now, East Asians are doing rather well and the women may have more options.
  36. @Aristippus
    At least in rural parts of the country, I don't think there was ever too much stigma against white male and American Indian female couplings. Plenty of French fur trappers took Indians wives. In the South, plenty of whites claim to have a touch of Indian blood. Usually it's people with ancestors from swampy or mountainous areas, who claim to be something like 1/64 Cherokee.

    “El Indio” apparently begat Ms. Machado’s daughter, and no one seems to mind.

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  37. Just anecdotally in LA, I remember seeing a lot more East Asian women with black men that I did in 1998

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  38. @Corvinus
    "In other words, there was already quite a lot of propensity toward interracial marriage in 1980, 36 years ago."

    There was a move in that direction by 1980, although there was still a significant number of people who believed intermarriage was other than natural. It was a generational phenomenon. Those born in the 1960's certainly found interracial marriages acceptable by that decade, compared to those born in the 1920's, 1930's, 1940's, or 1950's, who found it deplorable. This chart shows the progression since 1980 regarding mixed-race marriages. It appears that 1 in 7 marriages was interracial or interethnic by 2006--double the intermarriage rate of the 1980's and six times the intermarriage rate of the 1960's.

    http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0922160.html

    "In reality, a lot of attitudes changed quickly and fairly smoothly a long time ago due to the Sixties social revolution."

    Steve, come on now. Your statement is revisionist history. Are you going SJW on us? Never go SJW. “The Jeffersons” was on CBS for 11 seasons and was one of a few shows to feature an interracial couples in this decade. This article from the LA Times conveys the general feeling that interracial couples faced hostility and disdain.

    http://articles.latimes.com/1991-07-07/news/mn-2950_1_interracial-couple

    And we still get idiot comments like Palerider1861 who believe that whites essential soil themselves and their race for merely exercising their liberty to mate and procreate.

    “Steve, come on now. Your statement is revisionist history. Are you going SJW on us? Never go SJW. ‘The Jeffersons’ was on CBS for 11 seasons and was one of a few shows to feature an interracial couples in this decade. This article from the LA Times conveys the general feeling that interracial couples faced hostility and disdain.”

    That would be black/white interracial relationships just like the ones profiled in the article you linked to. Non-black/white couples are another story.

    When I was a child and “The Jeffersons” was popular, Asian/white interracial couples didn’t seem to get too many white people upset…..But black/white ones….Oh boy!

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  39. @Njguy73
    "At the Supreme Court this week, Ted Olson, the former Solicitor-General, was one of many to invoke comparisons with Loving v. Virginia, the 1967 case that struck down laws prohibiting interracial marriage. But such laws were never more than a localized American perversion of marriage. In almost all other common-law jurisdictions, from the British West Indies to Australia, there was no such prohibition. Indeed, under the Raj, it's estimated that one in three British men in the Indian subcontinent took a local wife. "Miscegenation" is a 19th century American neologism. When the Supreme Court struck down laws on interracial marriage, it was not embarking on a wild unprecedented experiment but merely restoring the United States to the community of civilized nations within its own legal tradition. "

    - Mark Steyn on gay marriage, 2013

    http://www.ocregister.com/articles/marriage-501918-most-american.html

    It’s my impression that Anglo women were never nearly as plentiful in Oz or India or the West Indies as they were in North America, so men there often had little choice but to marry natives.

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    • Replies: @Numinous
    The British population in India in the 1600s and 1700s was almost entirely male, so they really had no choice. Even then, formal marriage (as opposed to shacking up) was officially frowned upon, if not actively discouraged, by the Company. By the 1800s, when British conquests in India grew in size, the British stopped thinking of Indians as just a different people with a different culture and started thinking of them as an inferior people with an inferior culture. Plus women and married people figured in much larger numbers among the new arrivals. So taboos against intermarriage or even liaisons got well-hardened. The resulting apartheid-like situation was one of the triggers for large scale revolts of the native soldiers against their official class in 1857.
    , @Njguy73
    I just did some Wikipedding, and I learned that the Loving decision did not, as Steyn put it, "restore the United States to the community of civilized nations within its own legal tradition." Turns out that the U.S. has a long history on anti-miscegenation laws, not just in the slave-holding states.

    "...Newly established western states continued to enact laws banning interracial marriage in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Between 1913 and 1948, 30 out of the then 48 states enforced anti-miscegenation laws. Only Connecticut, New Hampshire, New York, New Jersey, Vermont, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Alaska, Hawaii, and the District of Columbia never enacted them..."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-miscegenation_laws_in_the_United_States
    , @syonredux

    It’s my impression that Anglo women were never nearly as plentiful in Oz or India or the West Indies as they were in North America, so men there often had little choice but to marry natives.
     
    True of India and the West Indies, but not true of Australia. Gene studies show that the White populations in the Anglo settler colonies (USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand) are extremely European.
  40. Here’s a pic of Bella Thorne, a bi-racial child and she’s given interviews about how proud she is of her Cuban Latino heritage.

    http://img2-1.timeinc.net/people/i/2016/news/160201/bella-thorne-600.jpg

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  41. @Steve Sailer
    My impression is that above a certain class level, white-black married couples reverse the gender disparity and become more like white guy with beard and black (or blackish) wife: e.g., Paul Krugman and his wife.

    When I think of high class pairing, I think about former Defense Secretary Cohen.

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    • Replies: @Steven J.
    Also George Lucas & Roger Ebert...a lot of these guys with the exception of Cohen are a bit on the nerdy side as well.
  42. @Citizen of a Silly Country
    Don't know about your parts, but where I live, even nice white ladies understand what kind of women marry and/or have babies with black guys.

    Middle-class and higher white women overwhelmingly - but quietly - look down on marrying blacks. It's fascinating to watch because these are the same women who love Oprah and never shut up about their love of diversity and other cultures. However, they definitely send signals to their daughters about black men.

    It's the same with them magically choosing to live in white neighborhoods despite being color-blind. Basically, they let their daughters know that dating black guys is sign of being white trash and there's nothing worse than being white trash.

    All of this reminds me of a friend of mine in college who introduced me to a game he played when we used to go a particularly cheap grocery store: Who can count the most mulatto kids with white moms. Winner gets a six-pack.

    You have to wonder about the long-term genetics of all of this. Will poor and working-class whites just fade into the Hispanic and, to a lesser degree, black populations, leaving only middle-class and up whites? What a wousy race that'd be.

    So only “lower class” “whites” marry “Hispanics”?

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    • Replies: @Citizen of a Silly Country
    Yea, I might have been more careful with that one. Hispanic is such a useless term. Certainly, Ricky Ricardo types don't fall into the categories that I was discussing.

    Basically, when I say Hispanic, I really mean mestizo and, even then, I'm talking about mostly Indian mestizo. Under that definition, yes, I'd say that it's almost always working-class whites who intermarry. Once again, upper-middle class mothers don't want their daughters - or sons - marry Salvadorans, in the same way that they don't want them marry white trash.

    If it helps my bonafides, my father's mother was white trash all the way, and he never knew his real father, who, apparently, was a reasonably successful businessman, i.e. my dad was a bastard child. (In some ways, he had a similar childhood to Bill Clinton. Similar period of time as well.) That's the crowd that seems to intermarry a fair amount with Hispanics, though they hate blacks. I don't know if I'd call them lower class (too many connotations), more like somewhat tacky working-class from the Southwest and Texas, which fits in pretty well with Hispanic culture. (For good or ill, I wouldn't fit in with that crowd, but I like that I came from them.)
  43. …counting Hispanics as a race…

    Except Hispanic is not a race and nobody every considered marriages between Spaniards and other Europeans or marriages with North Americans and Central and South Americans “interracial marriage.” Nobody looked askance at Lucille Ball and Ricky Ricardo, or Carmen Miranda and David Alfred Sebastian. It was perfectly acceptable.

    So, to use marriages that include an Hispanic partner to bump up the “interracial marriage” statistics is dishonest and inaccurate.

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  44. @Steve Sailer
    My impression is that above a certain class level, white-black married couples reverse the gender disparity and become more like white guy with beard and black (or blackish) wife: e.g., Paul Krugman and his wife.

    Or Roger Ebert, if he had a chin to grow a beard on.

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  45. @TangoMan
    There are a lot of covariables in play. Here is the set-up question they ask and to which they devise the graph:

    So what would America’s intermarriage rate look like if the country had not become more diverse?
     
    What are some of the societal consequences arising due to diversity? Paging Dr. Putnam. Group norms and coherion are eroded and people are left as isolated entities only having a relationship to government. Keep this constant but pretend the demographics haven't changed and you'll get more random chance in terms of people interacting and thus leading to romantic relationships. Put the sense of community back into the equation, because diversity has not destroyed the community, and you reduce the randomness of relationships.

    Without diversity increasing there are no propagandists out there actively normalizing inter-racial relationships, hence we would expect a lower rate of such relationships.

    If the issue here is how people view such relationships, two thoughts come to mind.

    1.) Why not measure the rate of Black-Asian relationships? Whites have been the target audience for a lot of propaganda on this issue, so by testing against B-A pairings, which we don't see in our official propaganda, we can get an understanding of the effects attributable to propaganda and what arises from shifting cultural attitudes.

    2.) What is meant by acceptance? People understand the "correct" response and so give that response. They see no upside to arguing with a poll taker or being judged by a poll taker. Secondly, because society is becoming atomized, there is less interest in working to uphold community standards, so "let the other guy do what he wants to do" is an attitude which is expressed more often - if you feel you have no stake in the community you won't uphold values. The better test is whether people feel the same when they, or their children, are the subjects involved in the inter-racial marriage.

    “Without diversity increasing there are no propagandists out there actively normalizing inter-racial relationships, hence we would expect a lower rate of such relationships.”

    Instead, we get propagandists such as yourself making the case that interracial relationships are other than normal, and that the result has been less social cohesion. Tell that to your European ancestors. They had considered relations outside of one’s ethnic group to be way outside the norm, and claimed that significant social damage would result. Yet, it is common for Americans to have multi-European heritage. Should they be condemned for the sins of their grandparents or great-grandparents?

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    • Replies: @iSteveFan

    Instead, we get propagandists such as yourself making the case that interracial relationships are other than normal, and that the result has been less social cohesion.
     
    Actually there is probably a biological aspect to men not wanting women in their groups to mingle with outside men. What happens in various times and places is that what constitutes in-group and out-group can and does change. So what might have once been socially damned, might become socially acceptable.

    But this doesn't change the fact that so long as men see other men as outsiders, they won't readily accept their women mingling with them.
  46. @Yellowcake
    The only mutual attraction I experienced from about 14 through college years outside my Caucasian race was to Japanese guys, three spaced apart by several years. But I think we realized the relationships had no where to go, mostly because of their parents. I didn't tell my parents about them at all but doubt seriously if they'd have approved either.

    Black guys I've always considered vastly too "other", even the lighter skinned and white acting ones. Never attracted to them and in fact always avoided them whenever possible though I have worked with them without any problems.

    Married a great white guy and think it's probably best to stay in ones own race, though I do still think whites with Asians might work.

    My sister dated an boy from Mumbai for four years in college. Our family knew from the beginning but whenever his parents visited my sister was just introduced as a friend.

    He broke up with her supposedly because she smoke too much weed, then eventually had an arranged marriage. He now makes millions a year as an investment banker in London.

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  47. @syonredux

    In other other words, controlling for demographics, the propensity toward interracial marriage (counting Hispanics as a race)
     
    Which is stupid. Nobody cared about intermarriage with White/mostly White Hispanics.Cf Lucy and Ricky......Now, if Ricky had been a Black guy, things would have been rather different......

    Lucy and the Kingfish from “Amos and Andy” — that would have been a great show.

    Of course they would have spent all their time trying to upstage each other …….

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    • Replies: @Desiderius

    Lucy and the Kingfish from “Amos and Andy” — that would have been a great show.
     
    The ultimate would be Kingfish and Alice Kramden.

    Watching the Honeymooners today one can see where the rot started.
  48. @Corvinus
    "You’d think that if anyone would put a stop to this it’d be down-and-out white men with little to lose, but they accept their cuckoldry with remarkable docility."

    So white men are cucks for refusing to put their foot down regarding interracial marriage? Wow, just wow.

    Praytell, what are YOU doing to stop this abomination from spreading in your neck of the woods?

    I think he was expressing his surprise that these white males no longer seem to have the natural human tendency to frown upon women in their group mingling with men from outside groups.

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    • Replies: @Corvinus
    "I think he was expressing his surprise that these white males no longer seem to have the natural human tendency to frown upon women in their group mingling with men from outside groups."

    Nice bait and switch there. Steve was expressing his surprise that white people no longer seem to have the "natural human tendency" to frown upon members of their own race mingling with other races.

    It may be a human tendency, but it's not necessary natural or in-born. It's learned behavior.

    "Actually there is probably a biological aspect to men not wanting women in their groups to mingle with outside men."

    I would like to see some study results on this phenomenon.

  49. @Citizen of a Silly Country
    Don't know about your parts, but where I live, even nice white ladies understand what kind of women marry and/or have babies with black guys.

    Middle-class and higher white women overwhelmingly - but quietly - look down on marrying blacks. It's fascinating to watch because these are the same women who love Oprah and never shut up about their love of diversity and other cultures. However, they definitely send signals to their daughters about black men.

    It's the same with them magically choosing to live in white neighborhoods despite being color-blind. Basically, they let their daughters know that dating black guys is sign of being white trash and there's nothing worse than being white trash.

    All of this reminds me of a friend of mine in college who introduced me to a game he played when we used to go a particularly cheap grocery store: Who can count the most mulatto kids with white moms. Winner gets a six-pack.

    You have to wonder about the long-term genetics of all of this. Will poor and working-class whites just fade into the Hispanic and, to a lesser degree, black populations, leaving only middle-class and up whites? What a wousy race that'd be.

    “Middle-class and higher white women overwhelmingly – but quietly – look down on marrying blacks.”

    Any data to back up your claim? Because all you have is YOUR observation.

    “Basically, they let their daughters know that dating black guys is sign of being white trash and there’s nothing worse than being white trash.”

    Dating someone who is less than their own social standing, regardless of race, could be considered “trash”.

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    • Replies: @Citizen of a Silly Country
    "Any data to back up your claim? Because all you have is YOUR observation."

    Read my first sentence, genius.

    But, if you really want data, just go to your local Walmart for an afternoon. No middle class and up white women wants that for her daughter.

    "Dating someone who is less than their own social standing, regardless of race, could be considered “trash”."

    True. But while they may not be able to define it, middle class and up white women have an instinctual understand of genetics and regression to the mean. (Remember when women were very worried about whether their children's suitors came from a "good" family.) They know what dooms their posterity for an eternity and what causes a - hopefully - temporary set-back.
    , @ogunsiron
    Any data to back up your claim? Because all you have is YOUR observation.
    ---
    There's nothing intrinsically wrong with taking anecdote into account when trying to understand phenomena. One just needs to be careful to not give too much weight or even too little weight to anecdote.
    ----
    Dating someone who is less than their own social standing, regardless of race, could be considered “trash”.
    ----
    In the real world, one's race or ethnic group plays some role in where one ends up on the social ladder.
  50. @melendwyr

    When White people lost pride in themselves, and their race!
     
    SJWs have lots of pride in themselves. Guess again.

    Which race would that be, exactly? Do you think the British people are (or were) all of the same ethnic group?

    Which race would that be, exactly? Do you think the British people are (or were) all of the same ethnic group?

    You’re slipping the rabbit into the hat here. Race is broader than ethnicity. Peoples of the home nations needn’t be of a single ethnicity to all fall within a single race. IIRC, genetic studies of those same peoples find them near genetically indistinguishable despite long political or social divisions.

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    • Replies: @dfordoom

    IIRC, genetic studies of those same peoples find them near genetically indistinguishable despite long political or social divisions.
     
    That might be true although it's perhaps more significant to ask if they think of themselves as belonging to the same ethnicity. As recently as the 1980s (when I was there) even the Cornish considered themselves to be quite distinct from the English. They possibly still do. Cultural differences are a lot more significant than genetic differences.
  51. @Corvinus
    "Without diversity increasing there are no propagandists out there actively normalizing inter-racial relationships, hence we would expect a lower rate of such relationships."

    Instead, we get propagandists such as yourself making the case that interracial relationships are other than normal, and that the result has been less social cohesion. Tell that to your European ancestors. They had considered relations outside of one's ethnic group to be way outside the norm, and claimed that significant social damage would result. Yet, it is common for Americans to have multi-European heritage. Should they be condemned for the sins of their grandparents or great-grandparents?

    Instead, we get propagandists such as yourself making the case that interracial relationships are other than normal, and that the result has been less social cohesion.

    Actually there is probably a biological aspect to men not wanting women in their groups to mingle with outside men. What happens in various times and places is that what constitutes in-group and out-group can and does change. So what might have once been socially damned, might become socially acceptable.

    But this doesn’t change the fact that so long as men see other men as outsiders, they won’t readily accept their women mingling with them.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Desiderius

    Actually there is probably a biological aspect to men not wanting women in their groups to mingle with outside men.
     
    It's interesting that the stereotype is that white men are more jealous of their women, while with blacks it's the other way around.
  52. Interracial marriage is too broad a term to capture attitudes which varied substantially by the races and pairings involved – and often the attitudes were quite tolerant, even in the 19th century. Others have noted the lack of concern with marrying South Americans (Hispanic is a useless term in understanding attitudes of the pre-1960s era), but there was a similar tolerance around East Asians as well in many cases, even dating back to the 19th century:

    The Washington Post just did a big feature on the experience of Japanese women who married Americans after WWII, and in their accounts prejudice against them wasn’t a major issue for them in the 50s:

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/national/2016/09/22/from-hiroko-to-susie-the-untold-stories-of-japanese-war-brides/

    Marriage between Chinese and Japanese migrant men and white American women was fairly common in the late 19th century. While the Chinatown ghetto culture that emerged in New York and San Francisco was fairly unassimilated and had little intermarriage, there was a broader population of exchange students and merchants and such who intermarried fairly frequently. It was something of a joking stereotype that the women who took part in English teaching and missionary outreach to Chinese migrants in New York in the Gilded age ended up frequently marrying their students.

    One researcher did a look back on the prestige and popularity of Japanese people and culture and the turn of the century among fairly wide swaths of the US population, noting that in old newspaper clippings that Japanese businessmen married white Americans in Middle American communities with little concern (even as those same towns organized anti-Chinese restrictions)

    http://eccentricculinary.com/the-great-sushi-craze-of-1905-part-1/

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  53. @Anonymous

    The prevalence of prole black male/white female “couples” calls the whole narrative about racism being a low-class thing into pretty serious doubt all by itself. You’d think that if anyone would put a stop to this it’d be down-and-out white men with little to lose, but they accept their cuckoldry with remarkable docility.
     
    Black and white couples are rare above lower-middle class. While white and East Asian couples are rare below the higher-middle class.

    You must be unfamiliar with life in the military.

    Mixed marriages have been common place for over forty years.

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    • Replies: @Anon
    Totally True about the military. Although, in the few cases I have personal knowledge of, the men tended to marry up.

    It's odd but I never thought of inter racial marriage as being anything other than black/white. Race seemed synonymous with black. Race records, race riots, etc.

    My family, in the 19th century, were very conscious of an Irish Catholic in the lineage. The Protestant / Catholic intermarriage issue was a big deal for a long time. Not to mention various white European nationalities.

    Most Asians I have met or worked with had professional backgrounds were what we would call professionals, but likely the elite professionals of their nation. Doctors are common -- since we haven't been able to meet demand with our own medical educational system. There is a lot of intermarriage going on, and it never struck me as having much to do with race. Not to mention Mexican and Latin American physicians who were European (although I don't know any who didn't return to cultures where privilege meant servants).

    Another element of this is a personal preference for white American males to like women who are comfortable with traditional household sex roles. And females that are interested in more dominant males.

    If this were all it amounted to, then I am comfortable enough with it. I can almost picture elite US women hanging out with their globally elite friends, and then hiring low cost Hispanic nannies. Second and Third wave feminists pound the shit out of each other and everyone else over issues like this. Caitlin Flanagan and the like.

    I guarantee if anyone had said 'interracial marriage' in the 60's or 70's or later -- it was assumed to be black/white.
    , @Whoever

    You must be unfamiliar with life in the military.
    Mixed-race marriages have been commonplace for over forty years.
     
    If not earlier. I'd push it back to the Occupation of Japan--at least that's when the door was opened. Recall the James Michener novel, Sayonara, made into a movie with Marlon Brando. Then there was his collection, Tales of the South Pacific, about the Navy in the New Hebrides during WW2, made into a musical and a movie. That had interracial romantic interests as well.
    It can be a shock for a person who grew up as part of a Forward Deployed Naval Forces family--a life where everybody was just American--to have to navigate the baffling and dismaying racial minefields of civilian American life.
    Here're a couple of cartoons from a Japan occupation-era Navy publication that illustrate how it was:
    http://i.imgur.com/cQHN3L6.jpg
  54. @Citizen of a Silly Country
    Don't know about your parts, but where I live, even nice white ladies understand what kind of women marry and/or have babies with black guys.

    Middle-class and higher white women overwhelmingly - but quietly - look down on marrying blacks. It's fascinating to watch because these are the same women who love Oprah and never shut up about their love of diversity and other cultures. However, they definitely send signals to their daughters about black men.

    It's the same with them magically choosing to live in white neighborhoods despite being color-blind. Basically, they let their daughters know that dating black guys is sign of being white trash and there's nothing worse than being white trash.

    All of this reminds me of a friend of mine in college who introduced me to a game he played when we used to go a particularly cheap grocery store: Who can count the most mulatto kids with white moms. Winner gets a six-pack.

    You have to wonder about the long-term genetics of all of this. Will poor and working-class whites just fade into the Hispanic and, to a lesser degree, black populations, leaving only middle-class and up whites? What a wousy race that'd be.

    They may not marry or seriously date black men, but they most certainly add them to their litany of pre-marital liaisons. Such things are very difficult to verify in any sort of scientifically valid manner for obvious reasons, but I’ve seen and heard more than enough in the way of anecdotes over the years to convince me of that.

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    • Replies: @Stealth
    There are a lot of white women who have a black male sex partner or two in their histories. The lucky ones get out of it without getting pregnant. The rest can "never go back." It usually occurs during a troubled time in their lives. A local woman, around my age, got caught up in the crystal meth scene around here some fifteen years or so ago. Most of those involved were white, but for some reason, there was a lone black guy in the bunch. He got her pregnant some time before he himself was killed in what I believe was a meth related accident of some type (ie, a fiery explosion).
    , @Citizen of a Silly Country
    I suspect that's overblown a bit, but I'm sure that it happens to some degree.

    I'm just saying that extraordinarily "polite" white women will discreetly but openly make quick remarks about white women with mulatto children. It was stunning to me the first time, but then I saw it happen repeatedly. It was bizarre because normally any minor statement considered "racist" is severely punished (trust me, I know); yet, here they were saying that living in a crummy house and/or no having the father around is what these white women should expect when they have kids with a black man.

    It's as though they understand the incredible consequences of that act and, thus, make sure in no uncertain terms that their daughters understand. It's the same when they choose the schools for their kids. There are some things that are too important to leave to chance, and they know it.
    , @Intelligent Dasein
    This is absolute BS of the first order. Normal White women do not go mudsharking around with black men in any significant numbers. I think your "anecdotes" must derive from excessive adult viewing habits.
  55. @Citizen of a Silly Country
    Don't know about your parts, but where I live, even nice white ladies understand what kind of women marry and/or have babies with black guys.

    Middle-class and higher white women overwhelmingly - but quietly - look down on marrying blacks. It's fascinating to watch because these are the same women who love Oprah and never shut up about their love of diversity and other cultures. However, they definitely send signals to their daughters about black men.

    It's the same with them magically choosing to live in white neighborhoods despite being color-blind. Basically, they let their daughters know that dating black guys is sign of being white trash and there's nothing worse than being white trash.

    All of this reminds me of a friend of mine in college who introduced me to a game he played when we used to go a particularly cheap grocery store: Who can count the most mulatto kids with white moms. Winner gets a six-pack.

    You have to wonder about the long-term genetics of all of this. Will poor and working-class whites just fade into the Hispanic and, to a lesser degree, black populations, leaving only middle-class and up whites? What a wousy race that'd be.

    Your last paragraph brings something to mind that I thought the other day:

    As long as the offspring of B/W interracial couplings consider themselves black, then the black population will become whiter, not the reverse. It seems that a lot of mixed race AA’s really do go the extra mile to prove themselves sufficiently black, and that includes taking black romantic partners. The president himself has been mentioned as an example of this.

    Obama’s daughters are at least one quarter white. If they have children with black men, that white heritage will be passed on into the black population. If they have children with white men, their children will consider themselves black, and the process will merely be delayed for a generation. If this continues, presuming we don’t import a large new African diaspora, the “black” Americans of the future might bear a striking resemblance to Shaun King.

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    • Replies: @iSteveFan

    If this continues, presuming we don’t import a large new African diaspora, the “black” Americans of the future might bear a striking resemblance to Shaun King.
     
    First, we are in the process of importing that large, new African diaspora.

    Second, would the general AA population become whiter, or just the upper class? Look at places like Haiti. The mixed elite that runs the place seem to have a social stigma against marrying blacks with little European ancestry. They are a separate class. In a way they probably consider marrying fully African Haitians as something akin to an interracial marriage.

    , @Jim Christian
    They will claim whatever lineage that brings them privilege. Remember, many Blacks used to try to "pass" for White. Why? Because back then, THAT brought you privilege. Now? Heh..
  56. @SPMoore8
    Lucy and the Kingfish from "Amos and Andy" -- that would have been a great show.

    Of course they would have spent all their time trying to upstage each other .......

    Lucy and the Kingfish from “Amos and Andy” — that would have been a great show.

    The ultimate would be Kingfish and Alice Kramden.

    Watching the Honeymooners today one can see where the rot started.

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  57. @iSteveFan
    When I think of high class pairing, I think about former Defense Secretary Cohen.

    Also George Lucas & Roger Ebert…a lot of these guys with the exception of Cohen are a bit on the nerdy side as well.

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    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    De Niro? Some of it's personal predilection. De Niro likes black ladies.
  58. “Racial intermarriage” which counts hispanics as another “race” is cognate to calling anyone who speaks English as their native tongue “white.” So that’s the first problem with this analysis.

    “Racial intermarriage” i.e., miscegenation, has been common among Euros whenever they have been in propinquity, that’s the key sociological term. The same applies to Native Americans, and any kind of Asian. For this reason, regardless of how “mestizo” they are, if they speak English, and act American, virtually any Latinx can marry any Anglo.

    I suspect the real issue here is black/white marriage, which I suspect is probably still pretty low, and part of the problem there is that if any white person marries any black person they almost always end up being “black.” So while black people are actually getting lighter, they haven’t disappeared. And so that racial chasm remains. That’s part of what I meant the other day when I pointed out that black people are still not fully assimilated.

    My impression is that most couples hook up in college. If there’s a large(r) talent pool comprised of non-whites (including Hispanics, Asians, whatever) then you can expect that due to that propinquity there will be more “inter-racial” marriages. (“Inter-racial marriages” have been an issue at least since “Melting Pot” (Zangwill’s play) and “Madame Butterfly” (the original novella published in Collier’s or something) for over 100 years.)

    So short answer I think most people are, and always have been, accepting of “interracial marriage”, the reason why there’s an issue with “black-white” marriage is because the differences are radical and the “black” anything is always associated with negative social characteristics, thus a black-white marriage was and probably still is often viewed as “marrying down.” And no one wants to do that.

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  59. @iSteveFan

    Instead, we get propagandists such as yourself making the case that interracial relationships are other than normal, and that the result has been less social cohesion.
     
    Actually there is probably a biological aspect to men not wanting women in their groups to mingle with outside men. What happens in various times and places is that what constitutes in-group and out-group can and does change. So what might have once been socially damned, might become socially acceptable.

    But this doesn't change the fact that so long as men see other men as outsiders, they won't readily accept their women mingling with them.

    Actually there is probably a biological aspect to men not wanting women in their groups to mingle with outside men.

    It’s interesting that the stereotype is that white men are more jealous of their women, while with blacks it’s the other way around.

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    • Replies: @iSteveFan
    It's not even racial. I grew up in a small, rural Midwestern town. Virtually everybody was German, English, Irish or a mixture of the aforementioned. I recall seeing fights break out when high school kids from a town 10 miles away came to our town to go out with certain girls. The funny thing was that these kids from the other town could have been the brothers and cousins of the boys in my town. They came from the same ethnic stock.

    But coming and trying to 'poach' local girls led to fights. Ditto when boys from my town went to other little towns.

    The funny thing is I am not German or English. I think I might have some Irish, but carry no Irish surname to indicate this. Yet there was no objections to me dating the girls in our town because I grew up with them and they accepted me as one of their own, even though I was obviously ethnically different. But if a German kid with another high school's lettermans jacket came to town, a fight was sure to break out.
  60. @Steven J.
    Also George Lucas & Roger Ebert...a lot of these guys with the exception of Cohen are a bit on the nerdy side as well.

    De Niro? Some of it’s personal predilection. De Niro likes black ladies.

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    • Replies: @Hapalong Cassidy
    Some other actors had noteworthy "predilections". John Wayne had a thing for Meztizas, while Marlon Brando really liked Polynesians.
  61. Why would california have anti miscegenation laws until 1948 when there were so few blacks there and what few black were there only moved in in ww2? The only sizable minority at that time was Asians so the anti miscegenation laws in california were made with Asians in mind.

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    • Replies: @SPMoore8
    I don't know the exact timeline but marriage of whites and Asians of various types was indeed against the law in California in the early 20th Century. But this was not the case in every state.

    I remember reading news stories about the former. Chinese but also even Indians (from India) were not immune. But I also know from wide reading that Japanese scientists, etc. frequently went to the West and married white women and nobody seems to have cared.
    , @syonredux

    Why would california have anti miscegenation laws until 1948 when there were so few blacks there and what few black were there only moved in in ww2?
     
    Preventative measure.
    , @Triumph104
    California's anti-miscegenation law prevented whites from marrying "Negroes, mulattoes, Mongolians, and Malays". The law was overturned based on a suit from a white Mexican American woman who wanted to marry a black American man.

    In her epic book, On Gold Mountain, Lisa See details how California's law affected her family. Her Chinese great-grandfather and her white great-grandmother had a "contract marriage" drawn up by a lawyer. See's mixed-race grandfather and his three brothers had to go to Mexico to marry their white wives. If I recall correctly, in the 1800s only 10% of Chinese immigrants to the US were women, with many being prostitutes.

    http://www.mixedheritagecenter.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1418
  62. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    "Do you think the British people are (or were) all of the same ethnic group?"

    Uh yes, yes they were. At one time.

    There were at least three distinct ethnic groups in Britain, and I’ve heard claims that there were five or more, all immigrant-invaders who dominated the previous peoples. They more or less co-existed, with social class stratification, for hundreds to thousands of years, depending.

    H.P. Lovecraft wrote “The Shadow over Innsmouth” at least partly in response to discovering that he had a Welsh grandmother. (Gasp!) They weren’t considered ‘white’ at the time.

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    • Replies: @syonredux

    H.P. Lovecraft wrote “The Shadow over Innsmouth” at least partly in response to discovering that he had a Welsh grandmother. (Gasp!) They weren’t considered ‘white’ at the time.
     
    That's a new one on me. Can you cite any letters where HPL talks about how "Innsmouth" is all about the Welsh?

    As for the Welsh not being regarded as White, that's simply absurd.
    , @syonredux
    For some up-to-date work on genetic structure in Britain:

    As repeatedly emphasized within the paper the population genetic structure across the British Isles is very subtle. Another way to say this is that the British Isles is very homogeneous genetically. This is true to some extent of Northern Europe as a whole. When looking at Fst values across very distinct European populations they are quite modest. For example, the value comparing North-Wales and Kent samples is 0.002. That means 0.2% of the genetic variation in a pooled sample of North Welsh and Kentish individuals is partitioned across the populations. In contrast, a European population compared to the Han Chinese will give an Fst value of ~0.10, so that 10% of the genetic variation in a pooled sample is partitioned across the populations. With such small genetic distances it is difficult to tease apart historically informative structure with conventional methods, such as PCA and ADMIXTURE, which rely on genotypes. In contrast, fineSTRUCTURE leverages more information by looking at haplotypes, which encapsulates not just genotypes which vary across populations, but the structure across genotypes in individuals. This gives one a crisper snapshot of more recent patterns of relatedness.
     

    But even with this method you can see that a vast swath of England proper can not be broken apart into local regions with great confidence. That suggests that there’s just little regional genetic structure to be found. The authors argue that this pattern is indicative of the fact that this was the core zone of Roman dominance, and later, of the commonwealth of Anglo-Saxon kingdoms (the Heptarchy). As such it was unified culturally and economically in a manner which likely facilitated gene flow, which prevents the divergence across populations which allow one to infer population history more easily. To make matters worse, the genetic distance between source populations on the Saxon Shore, assorted Germanic groups, and culturally Brythonic groups**, is very low.
     
    http://www.unz.com/gnxp/cuius-regio-eius-religio-in-anglo-saxon-england/?highlight=britain
  63. @AndrewR
    It's my impression that Anglo women were never nearly as plentiful in Oz or India or the West Indies as they were in North America, so men there often had little choice but to marry natives.

    The British population in India in the 1600s and 1700s was almost entirely male, so they really had no choice. Even then, formal marriage (as opposed to shacking up) was officially frowned upon, if not actively discouraged, by the Company. By the 1800s, when British conquests in India grew in size, the British stopped thinking of Indians as just a different people with a different culture and started thinking of them as an inferior people with an inferior culture. Plus women and married people figured in much larger numbers among the new arrivals. So taboos against intermarriage or even liaisons got well-hardened. The resulting apartheid-like situation was one of the triggers for large scale revolts of the native soldiers against their official class in 1857.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    The resulting apartheid-like situation was one of the triggers for large scale revolts of the native soldiers against their official class in 1857.

    Why precisely did they revolt?
    , @Marcus
    As I recall, the East India Company even banned Christian proselytization until around the mid 19th century
    , @PiltdownMan
    A couple of books that seem to cover the ground pretty well - Christopher Hibbert's The Great Mutiny and William Dalrymple's White Mughals.

    The consensus seems to be that when English and Scottish women started arriving in India in greater numbers circa 1830 they basically shut down the fraternization and intermarriage. White society matrons would take interest in the welfare of single East India Company men, and steer them toward eligible white girls.

    Where did these women arrive from? Apparently, there were boats, socialization cruises, of single white English girls who would make the arduous sea journey to India around the Cape of Good Hope, hoping to meet eligible bachelors in India. Sounds improbable, but apparently, it happened.

    The prim disapproval of contact with non-whites by mothers (and matronly figures in society) seems to be consistent with what some of the posters above have remarked about their observation of life here in earlier decades.
  64. @L Woods
    They may not marry or seriously date black men, but they most certainly add them to their litany of pre-marital liaisons. Such things are very difficult to verify in any sort of scientifically valid manner for obvious reasons, but I've seen and heard more than enough in the way of anecdotes over the years to convince me of that.

    There are a lot of white women who have a black male sex partner or two in their histories. The lucky ones get out of it without getting pregnant. The rest can “never go back.” It usually occurs during a troubled time in their lives. A local woman, around my age, got caught up in the crystal meth scene around here some fifteen years or so ago. Most of those involved were white, but for some reason, there was a lone black guy in the bunch. He got her pregnant some time before he himself was killed in what I believe was a meth related accident of some type (ie, a fiery explosion).

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    • Replies: @Stealth
    By "lucky," by the way, I don't mean that having a black boyfriend in and of itself is a bad thing for a white woman; it's just that white women tend to be attracted to the wrong kind of black guys - roguish and unlikely to settle down. These women then have to manage raising a child alone.
  65. It really depends on what you mean by “interracial marriage.” I’ve never had a problem with whites and Asians. Whites and blacks are different, though.

    Back in 1980 — when I was fifteen — I guess you could say I accepted black-white interracial marriage in theory, assuming that both parties were genuinely decent people genuinely committed to each other. But even back than I knew that blacks and whites were so fundamentally different that this would be rare.

    Based on what I’ve seen in practice in the past 36 years, I can say that today I’m dead set against it and would have absolutely no problem with outlawing it, were that possible.

    In 36 years I’ve personally seen exactly two white male/black female pairings. Literally every other pairing has been a black man with a white woman. These tend to fall into two categories: hideously ugly, morbidly obese white women who will take anything they can get — and a black man will always oblige them. The other category is hot blond white women who want to flaunt their wild sexuality or have daddy issues and are rebelling by hooking up with black men.

    In both cases the black man invariably moves on to plow other pastures and leaves the white woman — an very often the taxpayer — footing the bill for the mulatto babies.

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  66. @Desiderius

    Actually there is probably a biological aspect to men not wanting women in their groups to mingle with outside men.
     
    It's interesting that the stereotype is that white men are more jealous of their women, while with blacks it's the other way around.

    It’s not even racial. I grew up in a small, rural Midwestern town. Virtually everybody was German, English, Irish or a mixture of the aforementioned. I recall seeing fights break out when high school kids from a town 10 miles away came to our town to go out with certain girls. The funny thing was that these kids from the other town could have been the brothers and cousins of the boys in my town. They came from the same ethnic stock.

    But coming and trying to ‘poach’ local girls led to fights. Ditto when boys from my town went to other little towns.

    The funny thing is I am not German or English. I think I might have some Irish, but carry no Irish surname to indicate this. Yet there was no objections to me dating the girls in our town because I grew up with them and they accepted me as one of their own, even though I was obviously ethnically different. But if a German kid with another high school’s lettermans jacket came to town, a fight was sure to break out.

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  67. @Marina
    I married an Asian guy half a decade ago and I remember maybe a couple nasty comments about him being in it for a green card? The response ranged from, "oh, isn't it nice that you are dating someone you went to school with," to alarming progressive fawning over the whole thing. I don't remember any comments about his race. It honestly wasn't until I started spending time on the alt right that I realized anyone had a problem with it.

    I just remembered. My grandmother was surprised when I referred to my marriage as interracial. She thinks black-white is interracial. Marrying a Chinese guy is like marrying Italian: different than our ancestry, but not that different.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    What part of the country do you live in? What ethnicity are you? A Southern Sorority type white woman (e.g. Erin Andrews) marrying an Asian/Mestizo guy would certainly face a lot of social rejection even in 2016. Just a fact - I 'm a guy in Austin/Houston who knows such people socially. Steve - you lived in Houston during undergrad, chime in!!
  68. @Nns
    Why would california have anti miscegenation laws until 1948 when there were so few blacks there and what few black were there only moved in in ww2? The only sizable minority at that time was Asians so the anti miscegenation laws in california were made with Asians in mind.

    I don’t know the exact timeline but marriage of whites and Asians of various types was indeed against the law in California in the early 20th Century. But this was not the case in every state.

    I remember reading news stories about the former. Chinese but also even Indians (from India) were not immune. But I also know from wide reading that Japanese scientists, etc. frequently went to the West and married white women and nobody seems to have cared.

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  69. @AndrewR
    So only "lower class" "whites" marry "Hispanics"?

    Yea, I might have been more careful with that one. Hispanic is such a useless term. Certainly, Ricky Ricardo types don’t fall into the categories that I was discussing.

    Basically, when I say Hispanic, I really mean mestizo and, even then, I’m talking about mostly Indian mestizo. Under that definition, yes, I’d say that it’s almost always working-class whites who intermarry. Once again, upper-middle class mothers don’t want their daughters – or sons – marry Salvadorans, in the same way that they don’t want them marry white trash.

    If it helps my bonafides, my father’s mother was white trash all the way, and he never knew his real father, who, apparently, was a reasonably successful businessman, i.e. my dad was a bastard child. (In some ways, he had a similar childhood to Bill Clinton. Similar period of time as well.) That’s the crowd that seems to intermarry a fair amount with Hispanics, though they hate blacks. I don’t know if I’d call them lower class (too many connotations), more like somewhat tacky working-class from the Southwest and Texas, which fits in pretty well with Hispanic culture. (For good or ill, I wouldn’t fit in with that crowd, but I like that I came from them.)

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  70. @Stealth
    Your last paragraph brings something to mind that I thought the other day:

    As long as the offspring of B/W interracial couplings consider themselves black, then the black population will become whiter, not the reverse. It seems that a lot of mixed race AA's really do go the extra mile to prove themselves sufficiently black, and that includes taking black romantic partners. The president himself has been mentioned as an example of this.

    Obama's daughters are at least one quarter white. If they have children with black men, that white heritage will be passed on into the black population. If they have children with white men, their children will consider themselves black, and the process will merely be delayed for a generation. If this continues, presuming we don't import a large new African diaspora, the "black" Americans of the future might bear a striking resemblance to Shaun King.

    If this continues, presuming we don’t import a large new African diaspora, the “black” Americans of the future might bear a striking resemblance to Shaun King.

    First, we are in the process of importing that large, new African diaspora.

    Second, would the general AA population become whiter, or just the upper class? Look at places like Haiti. The mixed elite that runs the place seem to have a social stigma against marrying blacks with little European ancestry. They are a separate class. In a way they probably consider marrying fully African Haitians as something akin to an interracial marriage.

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    • Replies: @Stealth
    All of them would, eventually. I live in an area that's about eighty percent black. It is true that lower class blacks tend to be darker than their upper crust cousins, but I've noticed a general lightening over the course of my life. As a matter of fact, I'd say that white women are more likely to have children with lower class, rather than upper class, black men.
    , @ogunsiron
    The mixed elite that runs the place seem to have a social stigma against marrying blacks with little European ancestry. They are a separate class. In a way they probably consider marrying fully African Haitians as something akin to an interracial marriage.
    ---
    This is very true of haitians in Haiti and in places like Florida where they have recreated Haiti in some way. Haiti is a multi-ethnic country. In Florida there are mulatto haitian social circles and even arab haitian social circles. In places like Canada, though, the old country differences are very much attenuated. The arab haitians remain somewhat apart but the mulatto and black haitians do mix.
  71. @L Woods
    They may not marry or seriously date black men, but they most certainly add them to their litany of pre-marital liaisons. Such things are very difficult to verify in any sort of scientifically valid manner for obvious reasons, but I've seen and heard more than enough in the way of anecdotes over the years to convince me of that.

    I suspect that’s overblown a bit, but I’m sure that it happens to some degree.

    I’m just saying that extraordinarily “polite” white women will discreetly but openly make quick remarks about white women with mulatto children. It was stunning to me the first time, but then I saw it happen repeatedly. It was bizarre because normally any minor statement considered “racist” is severely punished (trust me, I know); yet, here they were saying that living in a crummy house and/or no having the father around is what these white women should expect when they have kids with a black man.

    It’s as though they understand the incredible consequences of that act and, thus, make sure in no uncertain terms that their daughters understand. It’s the same when they choose the schools for their kids. There are some things that are too important to leave to chance, and they know it.

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  72. @iSteveFan

    If this continues, presuming we don’t import a large new African diaspora, the “black” Americans of the future might bear a striking resemblance to Shaun King.
     
    First, we are in the process of importing that large, new African diaspora.

    Second, would the general AA population become whiter, or just the upper class? Look at places like Haiti. The mixed elite that runs the place seem to have a social stigma against marrying blacks with little European ancestry. They are a separate class. In a way they probably consider marrying fully African Haitians as something akin to an interracial marriage.

    All of them would, eventually. I live in an area that’s about eighty percent black. It is true that lower class blacks tend to be darker than their upper crust cousins, but I’ve noticed a general lightening over the course of my life. As a matter of fact, I’d say that white women are more likely to have children with lower class, rather than upper class, black men.

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  73. @Anonymous
    Is Fujimori considered Hispanic in Peru and Latin America? His campaign song was "El Ritmo del Chino" i.e. "The Rhythm of the Chinaman".

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lykmok5LzMY

    So far as I can tell, I don’t think anyone is “considered Hispanic” in Peru or Latin America. The “Hispanic” classification seems entirely an artifact of the US racial spoils system.

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  74. @Corvinus
    "Middle-class and higher white women overwhelmingly – but quietly – look down on marrying blacks."

    Any data to back up your claim? Because all you have is YOUR observation.

    "Basically, they let their daughters know that dating black guys is sign of being white trash and there’s nothing worse than being white trash."

    Dating someone who is less than their own social standing, regardless of race, could be considered "trash".

    “Any data to back up your claim? Because all you have is YOUR observation.”

    Read my first sentence, genius.

    But, if you really want data, just go to your local Walmart for an afternoon. No middle class and up white women wants that for her daughter.

    “Dating someone who is less than their own social standing, regardless of race, could be considered “trash”.”

    True. But while they may not be able to define it, middle class and up white women have an instinctual understand of genetics and regression to the mean. (Remember when women were very worried about whether their children’s suitors came from a “good” family.) They know what dooms their posterity for an eternity and what causes a – hopefully – temporary set-back.

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    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    "Look Who's Coming to Dinner" type upper middle class black male - white female marriages are fairly rare in 21st Century America.
    , @Corvinus
    "Read my first sentence, genius."

    You do realize that anecdotal evidence is subject to personal bias, right?

    "But, if you really want data, just go to your local Walmart for an afternoon. No middle class and up white women wants that for her daughter."

    Since you insist on personal stories, here is one. My local Walmart has a number of middle class folks who shop there. You seem to be under the false impression that all or most Walmarts attract "white trash".

    "But while they may not be able to define it, middle class and up white women have an instinctual understand of genetics and regression to the mean."

    What scientific basis do you have in support of this statement? Yes, mothers have instincts regarding the physical protection of their young when there is overt danger, but you are conjuring up something completely different here when you insist there is a nature component, that non-whites are other than safe bets when it comes to dating and mating.

    "Look Who's Coming to Dinner" type upper middle class black male - white female marriages are fairly rare in 21st Century America."

    I would like to see some numbers here.
    , @Antonymous
    "True. But while they may not be able to define it, middle class and up white women have an instinctual understand of genetics and regression to the mean."

    Seems true on a gut level, though I don't have any numbers. But what's apparent after 50 years of interracial marriage is how the children identify: absentee black fathers are idealized while white mothers are taken for granted or resented. Biracial children overwhelmingly identify with their black side, perhaps due to appearance and treatment at school, or perhaps something deeper. Whatever the reason, there's not much upside for the white mom and many of us view Obama's mother as a cautionary tale.

  75. @Corvinus
    "In other words, there was already quite a lot of propensity toward interracial marriage in 1980, 36 years ago."

    There was a move in that direction by 1980, although there was still a significant number of people who believed intermarriage was other than natural. It was a generational phenomenon. Those born in the 1960's certainly found interracial marriages acceptable by that decade, compared to those born in the 1920's, 1930's, 1940's, or 1950's, who found it deplorable. This chart shows the progression since 1980 regarding mixed-race marriages. It appears that 1 in 7 marriages was interracial or interethnic by 2006--double the intermarriage rate of the 1980's and six times the intermarriage rate of the 1960's.

    http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0922160.html

    "In reality, a lot of attitudes changed quickly and fairly smoothly a long time ago due to the Sixties social revolution."

    Steve, come on now. Your statement is revisionist history. Are you going SJW on us? Never go SJW. “The Jeffersons” was on CBS for 11 seasons and was one of a few shows to feature an interracial couples in this decade. This article from the LA Times conveys the general feeling that interracial couples faced hostility and disdain.

    http://articles.latimes.com/1991-07-07/news/mn-2950_1_interracial-couple

    And we still get idiot comments like Palerider1861 who believe that whites essential soil themselves and their race for merely exercising their liberty to mate and procreate.

    I think the segregationist South was finally defeated by around 1980. In 1965 they were still a force to be reckoned with. George Wallace kept the idea alive for a while, for reasons not exclusively to do with race, but by 1980 the KKK was a punchline and no politicians of significance were segregationist. The old segregationist Southern politicians got a pass for the remainder of their careers and their past was politely overlooked, so long as they got on board with the new thinking. That was a good approach; carrying a grudge against them would have forced them to remain segregationist for the remainder of their lives. The same was largely true of the broader society. Some strategic amnesia went a long ways. Racial intermarriage naturally went up after that.

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  76. @Stealth
    There are a lot of white women who have a black male sex partner or two in their histories. The lucky ones get out of it without getting pregnant. The rest can "never go back." It usually occurs during a troubled time in their lives. A local woman, around my age, got caught up in the crystal meth scene around here some fifteen years or so ago. Most of those involved were white, but for some reason, there was a lone black guy in the bunch. He got her pregnant some time before he himself was killed in what I believe was a meth related accident of some type (ie, a fiery explosion).

    By “lucky,” by the way, I don’t mean that having a black boyfriend in and of itself is a bad thing for a white woman; it’s just that white women tend to be attracted to the wrong kind of black guys – roguish and unlikely to settle down. These women then have to manage raising a child alone.

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  77. @Steve Sailer
    My impression is that above a certain class level, white-black married couples reverse the gender disparity and become more like white guy with beard and black (or blackish) wife: e.g., Paul Krugman and his wife.

    “Met in grad school” seems to be the typical story behind white male/black female relationships. And more often than not the woman has Caribbean/straight-up African parents.

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    • Replies: @Mr. Blank
    One shouldn't discount black female preferences in all this.

    I know a lot of iSteve readers aren't fans of black women, looks-wise, but it's not a universally-shared view. Some non-black men have a different opinion. And no, it's not just because they "can't get a white woman." For men who focus on certain physical features, black women offer better, um, opportunities...

    Black women, on the other hand, almost never find non-black men attractive. Feel free to speculate as to why, but the practical effect of this black female resistance to jungle fever is that, generally speaking, only very upper-class non-black men get a chance to scratch that particular itch -- at least without resorting to the Oldest Profession.

    Absent this factor, I suspect the number of interracial relationships would actually rise quite a bit. Not dramatically -- I suspect that black male/white female pairings would still be the most common, by far -- but not trivially, either.

  78. @L Woods
    The prevalence of prole black male/white female "couples" calls the whole narrative about racism being a low-class thing into pretty serious doubt all by itself. You'd think that if anyone would put a stop to this it'd be down-and-out white men with little to lose, but they accept their cuckoldry with remarkable docility.

    Recent DNA analysis on the Melenguens (sp?) shows that they are descended from Black men and White women in the late 1600s. So this has been going on for a long time. Indeed the Black male pairing at a time when White men had a huge women shortage and even the lowest woman could easily snare a higher status man, shows where the arrow of desire goes.

    By contrast there is almost no White male and Black female pairing, even at upper class levels. Almost no White man can find someone like Michelle Obama attractive.

    In the inter-racial marriage stakes, White men come out the losers at least on the lower levels of society.

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    • Replies: @Ed
    The class structures were pretty steep even in colonial Virginia. Upper class men just didn't marry anyone. Also there were very few blacks, men died often & a widowed or single woman was in for a very hard life. So if some African man came a calling many single whites women, many indentured servants themselves, couldn't afford to ignore.

    Finally the race lines weren't nearly as hard as they were to become later.
    , @Granesperanzablanco
    Lower class white men the losers? Not so long as there are Asian women around

    The losers are Black women and Asian men in the aggregate but I like to think there is someone for everyone
  79. @TangoMan
    Here's a pic of Bella Thorne, a bi-racial child and she's given interviews about how proud she is of her Cuban Latino heritage.

    http://img2-1.timeinc.net/people/i/2016/news/160201/bella-thorne-600.jpg

    Her dad is a white Cuban.

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    • Replies: @TangoMan
    We know that her dad is a White Cuban. The point is that if she marries a White guy, she'll be counted in the inter-racial marriage statistics as a Hispanic woman marrying a White man, thus playing a part in increasing the incidence and with this comes the presumption that such a marriage was once a cultural taboo.
  80. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @Svigor

    Answer to question depends on whether Jews are White Folks. ;)
     
    And the answer to that is "depends on which answer benefits the Jews."

    Speaking of, Jews sweep their interracial marriage rates under the rug (state secrets are easier to suss out) because they're low, like really low. Which calls into question their lefty bona fides. They try to "look a squirrel" the suckers into accepting "intermarriage" as a substitute, which is pretty hilarious.

    They try to “look a squirrel” the suckers into accepting “intermarriage” as a substitute, which is pretty hilarious.

    I don’t understand this sentence. Is it missing a word? Intermarriage a substitute for what?

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    • Replies: @meh

    I don’t understand this sentence. Is it missing a word? Intermarriage a substitute for what?
     
    You need to work on your reading comprehension. The answer to your question is in the parts of the paragraph that you did not quote. It is: relatively high (religious) intermarriage as a substitute for (comparative lack of) interracial marriage. Once you understand the sleight of hand at work here, you will understand Svigor's point.
  81. @AndrewR
    It's my impression that Anglo women were never nearly as plentiful in Oz or India or the West Indies as they were in North America, so men there often had little choice but to marry natives.

    I just did some Wikipedding, and I learned that the Loving decision did not, as Steyn put it, “restore the United States to the community of civilized nations within its own legal tradition.” Turns out that the U.S. has a long history on anti-miscegenation laws, not just in the slave-holding states.

    “…Newly established western states continued to enact laws banning interracial marriage in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Between 1913 and 1948, 30 out of the then 48 states enforced anti-miscegenation laws. Only Connecticut, New Hampshire, New York, New Jersey, Vermont, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Alaska, Hawaii, and the District of Columbia never enacted them…”

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-miscegenation_laws_in_the_United_States

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  82. @melendwyr
    There were at least three distinct ethnic groups in Britain, and I've heard claims that there were five or more, all immigrant-invaders who dominated the previous peoples. They more or less co-existed, with social class stratification, for hundreds to thousands of years, depending.

    H.P. Lovecraft wrote "The Shadow over Innsmouth" at least partly in response to discovering that he had a Welsh grandmother. (Gasp!) They weren't considered 'white' at the time.

    H.P. Lovecraft wrote “The Shadow over Innsmouth” at least partly in response to discovering that he had a Welsh grandmother. (Gasp!) They weren’t considered ‘white’ at the time.

    That’s a new one on me. Can you cite any letters where HPL talks about how “Innsmouth” is all about the Welsh?

    As for the Welsh not being regarded as White, that’s simply absurd.

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    • Replies: @Hapalong Cassidy
    "As for the Welsh not being regarded as White, that’s simply absurd."

    The Tudors were Welsh, for cryin' out loud. Of the British Isle Celts, the Welsh were always considered less alien to the English than the Scots or Irish were. The roots of that may go back even to Roman times. Wales was part of Brittania, while Scotland and Ireland never were.
  83. Follow up, even in the late 1600′s White men were unable and/or unwilling to police the sexual behavior of the very scarce White women in the Carolinas. Hence, Melungeons.

    Of course, now Kim Kardashian is the heroine of the age for nearly every woman. She was recently robbed in Paris of $10 million in jewels, and my first question was, where the hell did she get the money for $10 million in jewels?

    The Kardashian model, Trash Princess being famous and adored by the media by a carefully leaked sex tape with some Black rapper and followed on by various tawdry relationships in the media with Black rappers, is a winner. The prize being FAME which women want like nothing else.

    Heck I look forward to Obama pardoning OJ so he can “talk” with Kanye West and realize his, and America’s, dream wedding to Kim. Who among us does not look forward to the Royal Nuptials of America’s royal family, Kim and OJ?

    By contrast, only men with ZERO options save a few oddballs like David Bowie and DeNiro settle for Black women. Lucas? A man with negative charisma with women, see Zuckerberg, Krugman, etc. Not even their fame and money compensate.

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    • Replies: @iSteveFan

    Follow up, even in the late 1600′s White men were unable and/or unwilling to police the sexual behavior of the very scarce White women in the Carolinas. Hence, Melungeons.
     
    I think you are wrong. If that were true the US would be more like Brazil and other Latin nations. But the US white population is overwhelmingly white. You could count melungeons on one hand relatively speaking.

    This means whites did a good job of policing as you put it. Hence the one-drop rule, etc.

    It was only with the rise of later immigrant groups who became more influential in our society that these measures were challenged and overturned. So I guess whites can be blamed for allowing this to happen. But the US is, or was, distinct from the Latin new world in regards to this issue.
  84. @iSteveFan
    I think he was expressing his surprise that these white males no longer seem to have the natural human tendency to frown upon women in their group mingling with men from outside groups.

    “I think he was expressing his surprise that these white males no longer seem to have the natural human tendency to frown upon women in their group mingling with men from outside groups.”

    Nice bait and switch there. Steve was expressing his surprise that white people no longer seem to have the “natural human tendency” to frown upon members of their own race mingling with other races.

    It may be a human tendency, but it’s not necessary natural or in-born. It’s learned behavior.

    “Actually there is probably a biological aspect to men not wanting women in their groups to mingle with outside men.”

    I would like to see some study results on this phenomenon.

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    • Replies: @iSteveFan

    I would like to see some study results on this phenomenon.
     
    I don't think it is hard to understand. Consider this example. When Rome conquered Britain they encouraged their soldiers to marry local women. From the perspective of the local women, this was not such a bad proposal. Since the Romans were the rulers and weren't leaving any time soon, marrying a Roman would mean her kids would be in the ruling class. Marrying a local guy would ensure she and her kids would remain in the under class.

    From the POV of the local guys, this was a nonstarter. Not only would the available supply of potential wives be diminished, but the occupiers would in effect be using 'our' women to produce more Romans.

    It's biological, not racial or discriminatory. Keep in mind those same British guys would have been more than happy to procreate with women in other lands they might conquer. But having other men do that to your women is a losing proposition biologically to the male. It's not necessarily a losing proposition for the female.

    Taking your enemy's women has been part of warfare, and continues to be to this day. So deep down there is an aversion in men to seeing their women pair with outside men.

    Now what changes over time is who is considered an outsider. Different white ethnics, when they first came to America and still spoke their native languages, probably had a higher aversion to marriage outside their group then they did after they all learned English and essentially became white. I hear stories about Irish boys being beaten up for trying to date girls in an Italian neighborhood, etc., etc. But after everyone speaks the same language and becomes culturally similar, such objections receded.

    Of course as SPMoore8 points out, the differences between blacks and whites is greater than the differences between various white ethnics. So it is understandable that it has taken longer for whites and blacks to see each other in the same way as whites see one another.
    , @ogunsiron
    It may be a human tendency, but it’s not necessary natural or in-born. It’s learned behavior.
    ---
    Why can't it be inborn behavior/tendency that can sometimes be overridden and whose strength is found at various intensities in various people ? You *have* to go blank slate on this ?
  85. @melendwyr
    There were at least three distinct ethnic groups in Britain, and I've heard claims that there were five or more, all immigrant-invaders who dominated the previous peoples. They more or less co-existed, with social class stratification, for hundreds to thousands of years, depending.

    H.P. Lovecraft wrote "The Shadow over Innsmouth" at least partly in response to discovering that he had a Welsh grandmother. (Gasp!) They weren't considered 'white' at the time.

    For some up-to-date work on genetic structure in Britain:

    As repeatedly emphasized within the paper the population genetic structure across the British Isles is very subtle. Another way to say this is that the British Isles is very homogeneous genetically. This is true to some extent of Northern Europe as a whole. When looking at Fst values across very distinct European populations they are quite modest. For example, the value comparing North-Wales and Kent samples is 0.002. That means 0.2% of the genetic variation in a pooled sample of North Welsh and Kentish individuals is partitioned across the populations. In contrast, a European population compared to the Han Chinese will give an Fst value of ~0.10, so that 10% of the genetic variation in a pooled sample is partitioned across the populations. With such small genetic distances it is difficult to tease apart historically informative structure with conventional methods, such as PCA and ADMIXTURE, which rely on genotypes. In contrast, fineSTRUCTURE leverages more information by looking at haplotypes, which encapsulates not just genotypes which vary across populations, but the structure across genotypes in individuals. This gives one a crisper snapshot of more recent patterns of relatedness.

    But even with this method you can see that a vast swath of England proper can not be broken apart into local regions with great confidence. That suggests that there’s just little regional genetic structure to be found. The authors argue that this pattern is indicative of the fact that this was the core zone of Roman dominance, and later, of the commonwealth of Anglo-Saxon kingdoms (the Heptarchy). As such it was unified culturally and economically in a manner which likely facilitated gene flow, which prevents the divergence across populations which allow one to infer population history more easily. To make matters worse, the genetic distance between source populations on the Saxon Shore, assorted Germanic groups, and culturally Brythonic groups**, is very low.

    http://www.unz.com/gnxp/cuius-regio-eius-religio-in-anglo-saxon-england/?highlight=britain

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  86. @AndrewR
    It's my impression that Anglo women were never nearly as plentiful in Oz or India or the West Indies as they were in North America, so men there often had little choice but to marry natives.

    It’s my impression that Anglo women were never nearly as plentiful in Oz or India or the West Indies as they were in North America, so men there often had little choice but to marry natives.

    True of India and the West Indies, but not true of Australia. Gene studies show that the White populations in the Anglo settler colonies (USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand) are extremely European.

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  87. @Citizen of a Silly Country
    "Any data to back up your claim? Because all you have is YOUR observation."

    Read my first sentence, genius.

    But, if you really want data, just go to your local Walmart for an afternoon. No middle class and up white women wants that for her daughter.

    "Dating someone who is less than their own social standing, regardless of race, could be considered “trash”."

    True. But while they may not be able to define it, middle class and up white women have an instinctual understand of genetics and regression to the mean. (Remember when women were very worried about whether their children's suitors came from a "good" family.) They know what dooms their posterity for an eternity and what causes a - hopefully - temporary set-back.

    “Look Who’s Coming to Dinner” type upper middle class black male – white female marriages are fairly rare in 21st Century America.

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    • Replies: @Ed
    Rare but not unheard of, a Ford heiress married the light skin son of a local Detroit anchorwoman. Evidently they went to school together.

    http://www.deadlinedetroit.com/articles/5591/a_match_made_in_midtown_bill_ford_s_daughter_marries_carmen_harlan_s_son#.V_MmyzT3anM
    , @Jim Christian
    Does RG3 and a host of other Black athletes marrying White women count? Money is money, White chicks will do what they have to do to get close to it.
  88. @Steve Sailer
    De Niro? Some of it's personal predilection. De Niro likes black ladies.

    Some other actors had noteworthy “predilections”. John Wayne had a thing for Meztizas, while Marlon Brando really liked Polynesians.

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    • Replies: @prosa123
    "Some other actors had noteworthy “predilections”. John Wayne had a thing for Meztizas, while Marlon Brando really liked Polynesians."

    For a really specialized predilection, there was Raymond "Perry Mason" Burr. He was gay, and preferred young Tongan men.
  89. @Nns
    Why would california have anti miscegenation laws until 1948 when there were so few blacks there and what few black were there only moved in in ww2? The only sizable minority at that time was Asians so the anti miscegenation laws in california were made with Asians in mind.

    Why would california have anti miscegenation laws until 1948 when there were so few blacks there and what few black were there only moved in in ww2?

    Preventative measure.

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  90. @syonredux

    H.P. Lovecraft wrote “The Shadow over Innsmouth” at least partly in response to discovering that he had a Welsh grandmother. (Gasp!) They weren’t considered ‘white’ at the time.
     
    That's a new one on me. Can you cite any letters where HPL talks about how "Innsmouth" is all about the Welsh?

    As for the Welsh not being regarded as White, that's simply absurd.

    “As for the Welsh not being regarded as White, that’s simply absurd.”

    The Tudors were Welsh, for cryin’ out loud. Of the British Isle Celts, the Welsh were always considered less alien to the English than the Scots or Irish were. The roots of that may go back even to Roman times. Wales was part of Brittania, while Scotland and Ireland never were.

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    • Replies: @melendwyr
    Which is extraordinary, since IIRC the Welsh are thought to be the remnants of the first humans to immigrate to Britain, the ones who invaded no one because no one was there to invade. The other ethnic groups of the island arrived later.

    Given the tendency of invading groups to have children among the repressed groups but not accept genetic contributions into themselves, we might then expect the Welsh to be the most mixed, and old Norman families the least.
  91. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @Marina
    I just remembered. My grandmother was surprised when I referred to my marriage as interracial. She thinks black-white is interracial. Marrying a Chinese guy is like marrying Italian: different than our ancestry, but not that different.

    What part of the country do you live in? What ethnicity are you? A Southern Sorority type white woman (e.g. Erin Andrews) marrying an Asian/Mestizo guy would certainly face a lot of social rejection even in 2016. Just a fact – I ‘m a guy in Austin/Houston who knows such people socially. Steve – you lived in Houston during undergrad, chime in!!

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    • Replies: @Marina
    New England and then New York both up and downstate, WASP.
    , @Desiderius

    A Southern Sorority type white woman (e.g. Erin Andrews) marrying an Asian/Mestizo guy would certainly face a lot of social rejection even in 2016.
     
    Depends on his status/that of his family.

    A young white guy on the come would get more leeway, but that's it.
    , @Twinkie

    A Southern Sorority type white woman (e.g. Erin Andrews) marrying an Asian/Mestizo guy would certainly face a lot of social rejection even in 2016.
     
    I don't know about "a Southern sorority type white woman," whatever that means, but my wife is of the Anglo-German-Swedish stock from the Midwest. Her family is quite prominent in the area and is socially traditional and "old money." And of course I am ethnically East Asian.

    When I first met her family, I was quite apprehensive about how I would be received. To my relief, they welcomed me into the family and have adopted me as one of their boys (my wife only has brothers). My father-in-law even tried to bring me into his family business (they own a substantial portfolio of farmland, commercial property, buildings, etc.).

    Most pleasantly, my wife's grandparents wrote me a very moving and beautiful letter after they found out I proposed to her, in which they intimated that I was a fine young Christian gentleman and hoped all along that I would be "the one" for their granddaughter. When I was overseas frequently earlier in my life, I often received typewritten (!) letters of familiar comfort and patriotic exhortations from them.

    At her grandfather's funeral, I was a pallbearer; I wept and spoke about his World War II experiences, about which we often talked while he was alive, as well as his deep love for his hometown and our shared country.

    So in my case, no one was ostracized. Not I and not my wife. In fact, at our engagement party, "the high society" as such of her hometown showed up. No one seemed nonplussed about the "interracial" marriage. But given what I heard in her family and the wider social circle, I think the reaction would have been considerably different had I been black or non-white Hispanic.

    Later one of my wife's younger cousins met an East Asian man at church while attending Harvard Business School (where he was also a student) and married him. No rejection there either.
  92. @L Woods
    They may not marry or seriously date black men, but they most certainly add them to their litany of pre-marital liaisons. Such things are very difficult to verify in any sort of scientifically valid manner for obvious reasons, but I've seen and heard more than enough in the way of anecdotes over the years to convince me of that.

    This is absolute BS of the first order. Normal White women do not go mudsharking around with black men in any significant numbers. I think your “anecdotes” must derive from excessive adult viewing habits.

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    • Replies: @Corvinus
    "Normal White women do not go mudsharking around with black men in any significant numbers."

    Normal people don't refer to white women having children with black men as"mudsharking".
  93. @L Woods
    The prevalence of prole black male/white female "couples" calls the whole narrative about racism being a low-class thing into pretty serious doubt all by itself. You'd think that if anyone would put a stop to this it'd be down-and-out white men with little to lose, but they accept their cuckoldry with remarkable docility.

    That doesn’t ring true from what I see in my working class area. Sure some white guys get knocked up by blacks but I mostly see young white couples. None of the bartenders at the watering holes I frequent are with blacks. There are plenty of white women for lower class white men. It’s also not uncommon to see a white woman with a mixed race child & a white child around these parts.

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    • Replies: @rw95
    "Sure some white guys get knocked up... "

    What messed-up area are you living in?

    Couldn't resist.
  94. didn’t see anyone mention this. In CA the miscegenation law was struck down based on a Mexican American (white in CA since early state days) barred from marrying an African American

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perez

    My mom (half Mexican) has no real identity of being non white but rather just an insecurity of being lower class and not mainstream growing up.

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  95. @Anonymous
    They try to “look a squirrel” the suckers into accepting “intermarriage” as a substitute, which is pretty hilarious.

    I don't understand this sentence. Is it missing a word? Intermarriage a substitute for what?

    I don’t understand this sentence. Is it missing a word? Intermarriage a substitute for what?

    You need to work on your reading comprehension. The answer to your question is in the parts of the paragraph that you did not quote. It is: relatively high (religious) intermarriage as a substitute for (comparative lack of) interracial marriage. Once you understand the sleight of hand at work here, you will understand Svigor’s point.

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  96. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @Numinous
    The British population in India in the 1600s and 1700s was almost entirely male, so they really had no choice. Even then, formal marriage (as opposed to shacking up) was officially frowned upon, if not actively discouraged, by the Company. By the 1800s, when British conquests in India grew in size, the British stopped thinking of Indians as just a different people with a different culture and started thinking of them as an inferior people with an inferior culture. Plus women and married people figured in much larger numbers among the new arrivals. So taboos against intermarriage or even liaisons got well-hardened. The resulting apartheid-like situation was one of the triggers for large scale revolts of the native soldiers against their official class in 1857.

    The resulting apartheid-like situation was one of the triggers for large scale revolts of the native soldiers against their official class in 1857.

    Why precisely did they revolt?

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  97. @Whiskey
    Recent DNA analysis on the Melenguens (sp?) shows that they are descended from Black men and White women in the late 1600s. So this has been going on for a long time. Indeed the Black male pairing at a time when White men had a huge women shortage and even the lowest woman could easily snare a higher status man, shows where the arrow of desire goes.

    By contrast there is almost no White male and Black female pairing, even at upper class levels. Almost no White man can find someone like Michelle Obama attractive.

    In the inter-racial marriage stakes, White men come out the losers at least on the lower levels of society.

    The class structures were pretty steep even in colonial Virginia. Upper class men just didn’t marry anyone. Also there were very few blacks, men died often & a widowed or single woman was in for a very hard life. So if some African man came a calling many single whites women, many indentured servants themselves, couldn’t afford to ignore.

    Finally the race lines weren’t nearly as hard as they were to become later.

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  98. @Corvinus
    "I think he was expressing his surprise that these white males no longer seem to have the natural human tendency to frown upon women in their group mingling with men from outside groups."

    Nice bait and switch there. Steve was expressing his surprise that white people no longer seem to have the "natural human tendency" to frown upon members of their own race mingling with other races.

    It may be a human tendency, but it's not necessary natural or in-born. It's learned behavior.

    "Actually there is probably a biological aspect to men not wanting women in their groups to mingle with outside men."

    I would like to see some study results on this phenomenon.

    I would like to see some study results on this phenomenon.

    I don’t think it is hard to understand. Consider this example. When Rome conquered Britain they encouraged their soldiers to marry local women. From the perspective of the local women, this was not such a bad proposal. Since the Romans were the rulers and weren’t leaving any time soon, marrying a Roman would mean her kids would be in the ruling class. Marrying a local guy would ensure she and her kids would remain in the under class.

    From the POV of the local guys, this was a nonstarter. Not only would the available supply of potential wives be diminished, but the occupiers would in effect be using ‘our’ women to produce more Romans.

    It’s biological, not racial or discriminatory. Keep in mind those same British guys would have been more than happy to procreate with women in other lands they might conquer. But having other men do that to your women is a losing proposition biologically to the male. It’s not necessarily a losing proposition for the female.

    Taking your enemy’s women has been part of warfare, and continues to be to this day. So deep down there is an aversion in men to seeing their women pair with outside men.

    Now what changes over time is who is considered an outsider. Different white ethnics, when they first came to America and still spoke their native languages, probably had a higher aversion to marriage outside their group then they did after they all learned English and essentially became white. I hear stories about Irish boys being beaten up for trying to date girls in an Italian neighborhood, etc., etc. But after everyone speaks the same language and becomes culturally similar, such objections receded.

    Of course as SPMoore8 points out, the differences between blacks and whites is greater than the differences between various white ethnics. So it is understandable that it has taken longer for whites and blacks to see each other in the same way as whites see one another.

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    • Replies: @Corvinus
    "I don’t think it is hard to understand. Consider this example. When Rome conquered Britain they encouraged their soldiers to marry local women. From the perspective of the local women, this was not such a bad proposal. Since the Romans were the rulers and weren’t leaving any time soon, marrying a Roman would mean her kids would be in the ruling class. Marrying a local guy would ensure she and her kids would remain in the under class."

    Marrying a Roman would potentially mean her male offspring would have a better shot at becoming part of the ruling class.

    "It’s biological, not racial or discriminatory. Keep in mind those same British guys would have been more than happy to procreate with women in other lands they might conquer. But having other men do that to your women is a losing proposition biologically to the male. It’s not necessarily a losing proposition for the female."

    Not if those same British guys were granted Roman citizenship, which they received. Then this "biological competition" becomes a non-factor.

    "Taking your enemy’s women has been part of warfare, and continues to be to this day. So deep down there is an aversion in men to seeing their women pair with outside men."

    Assuming that today it is considered an act of war for white people to marry outside of their race.

  99. @Bill P
    Lots of white enlisted men married Japanese and Koreans back in the day. Most of these men were working class.

    Honestly mixed marriage seems less common to me today than it did in the 80s. Relative to the number of non-whites that is -- of course the overall numbers are higher.

    Back in the day, Japan and South Korea were fairly poor countries. Some of the women may have seen marrying a GI as a step up. Now, East Asians are doing rather well and the women may have more options.

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    • Replies: @Bill P
    A fair number of white enlisted men were pretty good catches, and a lot still are today. I worked with a young one today. Slim, handsome and above average intelligence (the US military filters out unintelligent and weak white men). But nowadays white enlisted men have more options with quality white women than they did in the 50s-70s. You've got to keep in mind that the relative decline in white people's status has affected white women as well, so white soldiers have more options and may not be as willing to marry oriental ladies. It's a two way street.
  100. @Steve Sailer
    "Look Who's Coming to Dinner" type upper middle class black male - white female marriages are fairly rare in 21st Century America.

    Rare but not unheard of, a Ford heiress married the light skin son of a local Detroit anchorwoman. Evidently they went to school together.

    http://www.deadlinedetroit.com/articles/5591/a_match_made_in_midtown_bill_ford_s_daughter_marries_carmen_harlan_s_son#.V_MmyzT3anM

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    • Replies: @TangoMan
    Take a look at the man that John Boehner's daughter married.
    , @benjaminl
    Don't forget Michelle Rhee (OK, she's Asian) and Kevin Johnson.
    , @Triumph104
    The Ford heiress's grandfather owns the Detroit Lions.

    Ahmad Rashad was married to the ex-wife of the New York Jets owner. Rashad and his then-wife adopted his Kazakhstan-born step-granddaughter after the child's adopted mother, Casey Johnson, died. (PHOTO)

    This year Rashad married a Hispanic woman who is a clinical social worker/therapist working on her PhD in marriage and family therapy. She has also acted.

    The billionaire owner of the Philadelphia Eagles married a Vietnamese woman a few years ago.

  101. @Ed
    Rare but not unheard of, a Ford heiress married the light skin son of a local Detroit anchorwoman. Evidently they went to school together.

    http://www.deadlinedetroit.com/articles/5591/a_match_made_in_midtown_bill_ford_s_daughter_marries_carmen_harlan_s_son#.V_MmyzT3anM

    Take a look at the man that John Boehner’s daughter married.

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  102. @Whiskey
    Recent DNA analysis on the Melenguens (sp?) shows that they are descended from Black men and White women in the late 1600s. So this has been going on for a long time. Indeed the Black male pairing at a time when White men had a huge women shortage and even the lowest woman could easily snare a higher status man, shows where the arrow of desire goes.

    By contrast there is almost no White male and Black female pairing, even at upper class levels. Almost no White man can find someone like Michelle Obama attractive.

    In the inter-racial marriage stakes, White men come out the losers at least on the lower levels of society.

    Lower class white men the losers? Not so long as there are Asian women around

    The losers are Black women and Asian men in the aggregate but I like to think there is someone for everyone

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    • Replies: @Marcus
    Don't get in the way of Whiskey's bizarre fantasies
    , @Twinkie

    The losers are Black women and Asian men in the aggregate but I like to think there is someone for everyone
     
    This trope about Asian men has been beaten to death, but the numbers are quite different for *American-born* Asian males. They intermarry with white females at high rates (though at varying rates depending on ethnicity, i.e. Indians and Vietnamese at much lower rates than Koreans).

    Traditionally "the losers" were immigrant (Asian) males who had low status/low acculturation than immigrant females and therefore had greater difficulty attracting native-born partners. But due to increased immigration levels, immigrant Asian males can now find plenty of immigrant Asian females. Good for them, but bad for assimilation.

    Any way one cuts the data, Asians in America - both males and females - have the highest rates of marriage and the lowest rates of divorce, so it makes no sense to compare Asian men to black women who have low rates of marriage, high rates of divorce, and high rates of out-of-wedlock birth.
  103. Marriage between Blacks and Whites may be more “acceptable,” but according to data collected at the OkCupid dating site, few White women date Black men, or even reply to their messages.

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    • Replies: @Jess Sayan
    The OKCupid data showed that white women ignored 79% of black men's messages and 71% of white men's. Not a gigantic difference IMO.
  104. @attilathehen
    Her dad is a white Cuban.

    We know that her dad is a White Cuban. The point is that if she marries a White guy, she’ll be counted in the inter-racial marriage statistics as a Hispanic woman marrying a White man, thus playing a part in increasing the incidence and with this comes the presumption that such a marriage was once a cultural taboo.

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  105. @anonitron1
    "Met in grad school" seems to be the typical story behind white male/black female relationships. And more often than not the woman has Caribbean/straight-up African parents.

    One shouldn’t discount black female preferences in all this.

    I know a lot of iSteve readers aren’t fans of black women, looks-wise, but it’s not a universally-shared view. Some non-black men have a different opinion. And no, it’s not just because they “can’t get a white woman.” For men who focus on certain physical features, black women offer better, um, opportunities…

    Black women, on the other hand, almost never find non-black men attractive. Feel free to speculate as to why, but the practical effect of this black female resistance to jungle fever is that, generally speaking, only very upper-class non-black men get a chance to scratch that particular itch — at least without resorting to the Oldest Profession.

    Absent this factor, I suspect the number of interracial relationships would actually rise quite a bit. Not dramatically — I suspect that black male/white female pairings would still be the most common, by far — but not trivially, either.

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    • Replies: @Bill P
    Totally not true that black women don't find white men attractive. Granted, if a guy has a few features that trend black (such as curly hair) it makes a big difference, but simply being a masculine "alpha" male is usually enough for black girls. In high school, I had a Swedish friend who was in the top 3 in Sweden in youth judo who also happened to have a blond afro, and he was extremely popular with the black girls.
    , @Sgt. Joe Friday
    I was under the impression that white male/Asian female couples were the most common interracial pairing.
    , @Desiderius

    Black women, on the other hand, almost never find non-black men attractive.
     
    Maybe viscerally, but I always had black women looking for an advantageous match, Austen-style, after me in my single days.
    , @Anonitron2
    I think you're about as wrong as it gets on this point. Black girls are generally open to whatever but hoodrats don't have very much opportunity to socialize with white dudes of any social stratum.

    Anti-racism people get most things wrong but they're right in that whites are so omnipresent in media culture that pretty much any ethnic group finds them, on the whole, at least modestly attractive.
  106. @Corvinus
    "Middle-class and higher white women overwhelmingly – but quietly – look down on marrying blacks."

    Any data to back up your claim? Because all you have is YOUR observation.

    "Basically, they let their daughters know that dating black guys is sign of being white trash and there’s nothing worse than being white trash."

    Dating someone who is less than their own social standing, regardless of race, could be considered "trash".

    Any data to back up your claim? Because all you have is YOUR observation.

    There’s nothing intrinsically wrong with taking anecdote into account when trying to understand phenomena. One just needs to be careful to not give too much weight or even too little weight to anecdote.
    —-
    Dating someone who is less than their own social standing, regardless of race, could be considered “trash”.
    —-
    In the real world, one’s race or ethnic group plays some role in where one ends up on the social ladder.

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  107. @Steve Sailer
    My impression is that above a certain class level, white-black married couples reverse the gender disparity and become more like white guy with beard and black (or blackish) wife: e.g., Paul Krugman and his wife.

    Black wife/white husband are 44% less likely to divorce, are more educated, and have a higher median income than white/white spouses. I would guess that black wife/white husband are also older when they marry.

    Black husband/white wife are twice as likely to divorce as white/white.

    About half of whites intermarriages are with Hispanics. Over 3/4 of Hispanics intermarry with whites.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interracial_marriage_in_the_United_States

    http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2012/02/16/the-rise-of-intermarriage/

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  108. @iSteveFan

    If this continues, presuming we don’t import a large new African diaspora, the “black” Americans of the future might bear a striking resemblance to Shaun King.
     
    First, we are in the process of importing that large, new African diaspora.

    Second, would the general AA population become whiter, or just the upper class? Look at places like Haiti. The mixed elite that runs the place seem to have a social stigma against marrying blacks with little European ancestry. They are a separate class. In a way they probably consider marrying fully African Haitians as something akin to an interracial marriage.

    The mixed elite that runs the place seem to have a social stigma against marrying blacks with little European ancestry. They are a separate class. In a way they probably consider marrying fully African Haitians as something akin to an interracial marriage.

    This is very true of haitians in Haiti and in places like Florida where they have recreated Haiti in some way. Haiti is a multi-ethnic country. In Florida there are mulatto haitian social circles and even arab haitian social circles. In places like Canada, though, the old country differences are very much attenuated. The arab haitians remain somewhat apart but the mulatto and black haitians do mix.

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  109. @Steve Sailer
    My impression is that above a certain class level, white-black married couples reverse the gender disparity and become more like white guy with beard and black (or blackish) wife: e.g., Paul Krugman and his wife.

    WM/BW marriage is more likely to be middle class or upper middle. BM/WW marriage is more likely to be lower middle or poverty-class. There’s more BM/WW marriage, but the gap is shrinking due to marriage being more tied to college education and/or IT/STEM background these days, since that is where a lot of the family supporting jobs are. And black women are more likely to be in those realms, so the interracial marriage gap is shrinking.

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  110. @Corvinus
    "I think he was expressing his surprise that these white males no longer seem to have the natural human tendency to frown upon women in their group mingling with men from outside groups."

    Nice bait and switch there. Steve was expressing his surprise that white people no longer seem to have the "natural human tendency" to frown upon members of their own race mingling with other races.

    It may be a human tendency, but it's not necessary natural or in-born. It's learned behavior.

    "Actually there is probably a biological aspect to men not wanting women in their groups to mingle with outside men."

    I would like to see some study results on this phenomenon.

    It may be a human tendency, but it’s not necessary natural or in-born. It’s learned behavior.

    Why can’t it be inborn behavior/tendency that can sometimes be overridden and whose strength is found at various intensities in various people ? You *have* to go blank slate on this ?

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  111. One thing that puzzles me is the opinion of NAMs towards interracial marriage. Historically, blacks, Polynesians etc, have tended to be more accepting of interracial marriage than whites but are more ethnocentric in political terms. In contrast, whites are highly variable in their acceptance of interracial marriage, but are the least ethnocentric race when it comes to politics.

    Another odd thing is that left-wing whites aren’t necessary the most likely to be interesting in interracial marriage. For example, Polish women (who aren’t particularly liberal) seem to be more interested in dating black males than Scandinavian women (who are actually the world’s most liberal white women). Also, it tends to be the libertarian leaning-white guys who are most keen on dating Asian women. The left-liberal white guys don’t seem to be that bothered.

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  112. @White Guy In Japan
    Back in the day, Japan and South Korea were fairly poor countries. Some of the women may have seen marrying a GI as a step up. Now, East Asians are doing rather well and the women may have more options.

    A fair number of white enlisted men were pretty good catches, and a lot still are today. I worked with a young one today. Slim, handsome and above average intelligence (the US military filters out unintelligent and weak white men). But nowadays white enlisted men have more options with quality white women than they did in the 50s-70s. You’ve got to keep in mind that the relative decline in white people’s status has affected white women as well, so white soldiers have more options and may not be as willing to marry oriental ladies. It’s a two way street.

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  113. Wasn’t there a dating survey out of the UK where black men were ranked most attractive, followed by white and Asian men, and Asian women were most attractive followed by white women?

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  114. Anon says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @Busby
    You must be unfamiliar with life in the military.

    Mixed marriages have been common place for over forty years.

    Totally True about the military. Although, in the few cases I have personal knowledge of, the men tended to marry up.

    It’s odd but I never thought of inter racial marriage as being anything other than black/white. Race seemed synonymous with black. Race records, race riots, etc.

    My family, in the 19th century, were very conscious of an Irish Catholic in the lineage. The Protestant / Catholic intermarriage issue was a big deal for a long time. Not to mention various white European nationalities.

    Most Asians I have met or worked with had professional backgrounds were what we would call professionals, but likely the elite professionals of their nation. Doctors are common — since we haven’t been able to meet demand with our own medical educational system. There is a lot of intermarriage going on, and it never struck me as having much to do with race. Not to mention Mexican and Latin American physicians who were European (although I don’t know any who didn’t return to cultures where privilege meant servants).

    Another element of this is a personal preference for white American males to like women who are comfortable with traditional household sex roles. And females that are interested in more dominant males.

    If this were all it amounted to, then I am comfortable enough with it. I can almost picture elite US women hanging out with their globally elite friends, and then hiring low cost Hispanic nannies. Second and Third wave feminists pound the shit out of each other and everyone else over issues like this. Caitlin Flanagan and the like.

    I guarantee if anyone had said ‘interracial marriage’ in the 60′s or 70′s or later — it was assumed to be black/white.

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  115. @Mr. Blank
    One shouldn't discount black female preferences in all this.

    I know a lot of iSteve readers aren't fans of black women, looks-wise, but it's not a universally-shared view. Some non-black men have a different opinion. And no, it's not just because they "can't get a white woman." For men who focus on certain physical features, black women offer better, um, opportunities...

    Black women, on the other hand, almost never find non-black men attractive. Feel free to speculate as to why, but the practical effect of this black female resistance to jungle fever is that, generally speaking, only very upper-class non-black men get a chance to scratch that particular itch -- at least without resorting to the Oldest Profession.

    Absent this factor, I suspect the number of interracial relationships would actually rise quite a bit. Not dramatically -- I suspect that black male/white female pairings would still be the most common, by far -- but not trivially, either.

    Totally not true that black women don’t find white men attractive. Granted, if a guy has a few features that trend black (such as curly hair) it makes a big difference, but simply being a masculine “alpha” male is usually enough for black girls. In high school, I had a Swedish friend who was in the top 3 in Sweden in youth judo who also happened to have a blond afro, and he was extremely popular with the black girls.

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  116. @Nns
    Why would california have anti miscegenation laws until 1948 when there were so few blacks there and what few black were there only moved in in ww2? The only sizable minority at that time was Asians so the anti miscegenation laws in california were made with Asians in mind.

    California’s anti-miscegenation law prevented whites from marrying “Negroes, mulattoes, Mongolians, and Malays”. The law was overturned based on a suit from a white Mexican American woman who wanted to marry a black American man.

    In her epic book, On Gold Mountain, Lisa See details how California’s law affected her family. Her Chinese great-grandfather and her white great-grandmother had a “contract marriage” drawn up by a lawyer. See’s mixed-race grandfather and his three brothers had to go to Mexico to marry their white wives. If I recall correctly, in the 1800s only 10% of Chinese immigrants to the US were women, with many being prostitutes.

    http://www.mixedheritagecenter.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1418

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    • Replies: @granesperanzablanco
    There was a interesting time in CA history where Indian Sikhs immigrated to agricultural areas in the Central Valley (and were successful) but were "non-white" so were not allowed to bring in wives. They ended up marrying Mexican women who were "white" by law. Apparently nobody really cared though because miscegenation laws were technically broken with these unions

    Anyone who thinks this was only a white black issue before WW2 does not know West Coast History. Miscegenation laws and racial covenants on housing titles were just as focused on Japanese, Chinese and Filipinos. By law Mexicans were considered white no matter how mestizo.
  117. @Mr. Blank
    One shouldn't discount black female preferences in all this.

    I know a lot of iSteve readers aren't fans of black women, looks-wise, but it's not a universally-shared view. Some non-black men have a different opinion. And no, it's not just because they "can't get a white woman." For men who focus on certain physical features, black women offer better, um, opportunities...

    Black women, on the other hand, almost never find non-black men attractive. Feel free to speculate as to why, but the practical effect of this black female resistance to jungle fever is that, generally speaking, only very upper-class non-black men get a chance to scratch that particular itch -- at least without resorting to the Oldest Profession.

    Absent this factor, I suspect the number of interracial relationships would actually rise quite a bit. Not dramatically -- I suspect that black male/white female pairings would still be the most common, by far -- but not trivially, either.

    I was under the impression that white male/Asian female couples were the most common interracial pairing.

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  118. @Jonathan Silber
    Marriage between Blacks and Whites may be more "acceptable," but according to data collected at the OkCupid dating site, few White women date Black men, or even reply to their messages.

    The OKCupid data showed that white women ignored 79% of black men’s messages and 71% of white men’s. Not a gigantic difference IMO.

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    • Replies: @ogunsiron
    I've heard of other studies that showed patterns like "average black man needs to make $100k/year more than average white guy to get the attention of average white female". I've often wondered if assimilation made a difference. It's very easy to see why even a swpl far left liberal white feminist female would not be interested in average or even affluent black men. The culture gap is just so wide. I've actually spoken to white females who said that they didn't have a problem with the looks of all black men but that they felt zero in common with them culturally.
  119. @Citizen of a Silly Country
    "Any data to back up your claim? Because all you have is YOUR observation."

    Read my first sentence, genius.

    But, if you really want data, just go to your local Walmart for an afternoon. No middle class and up white women wants that for her daughter.

    "Dating someone who is less than their own social standing, regardless of race, could be considered “trash”."

    True. But while they may not be able to define it, middle class and up white women have an instinctual understand of genetics and regression to the mean. (Remember when women were very worried about whether their children's suitors came from a "good" family.) They know what dooms their posterity for an eternity and what causes a - hopefully - temporary set-back.

    “Read my first sentence, genius.”

    You do realize that anecdotal evidence is subject to personal bias, right?

    “But, if you really want data, just go to your local Walmart for an afternoon. No middle class and up white women wants that for her daughter.”

    Since you insist on personal stories, here is one. My local Walmart has a number of middle class folks who shop there. You seem to be under the false impression that all or most Walmarts attract “white trash”.

    “But while they may not be able to define it, middle class and up white women have an instinctual understand of genetics and regression to the mean.”

    What scientific basis do you have in support of this statement? Yes, mothers have instincts regarding the physical protection of their young when there is overt danger, but you are conjuring up something completely different here when you insist there is a nature component, that non-whites are other than safe bets when it comes to dating and mating.

    “Look Who’s Coming to Dinner” type upper middle class black male – white female marriages are fairly rare in 21st Century America.”

    I would like to see some numbers here.

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    • Replies: @Jim Don Bob
    I like Walmart. Sadly, the yuppie area where I live would never allow one. They ran off a Home Depot years ago.
    , @Anonymous
    This may answer some of your questions.

    http://www.businessinsider.com/this-is-the-highest-earning-type-of-interracial-couple-2012-2

    Asian couples, including mixed couples with either an Asian husband or wife, dominated the combined earnings in 2010, out-earning other mixed couples by $10,000, according to The Rise of Intermarriage study by the Pew Research Center.

    newlyweds race earnings PewPew Research Center

    Pure Asian couples earned on average $62,000 while mixed couples earned around $71,000.

    On the other end of the spectrum, newly married couples of Hispanic descent make the lowest combined earnings of about $35,600 per year. Hispanics who married "out" of their race and tied the knot with whites earn significantly more than those who married "in."

    According to the study, the newlywed pattern depicts a bigger picture:

    "The earning differences of couples reflect the general pattern of income disparity among families of different racial and ethnic background in the U.S. In 2009, the median family income was $75,027 for Asians, $62,545 for whites, $39,730 for Hispanics, and $38,409 for black families."

    Median Combined Income for Different Newlywed

    AsianHusband-White Wife $71,800
    White Husband-Asian Wife $70,952
    Asian-Asian $62,000
    White Husb - Hisp Wife $60,990
    White Husb - Black Wife $60,762
    White - White $60,000
    Hisp Husb - White Wife $53,000
    Black Husb - White Wife $52,660
    Black - Black $47,700
    Hisp - Hisp $35, 578
  120. @iSteveFan

    I would like to see some study results on this phenomenon.
     
    I don't think it is hard to understand. Consider this example. When Rome conquered Britain they encouraged their soldiers to marry local women. From the perspective of the local women, this was not such a bad proposal. Since the Romans were the rulers and weren't leaving any time soon, marrying a Roman would mean her kids would be in the ruling class. Marrying a local guy would ensure she and her kids would remain in the under class.

    From the POV of the local guys, this was a nonstarter. Not only would the available supply of potential wives be diminished, but the occupiers would in effect be using 'our' women to produce more Romans.

    It's biological, not racial or discriminatory. Keep in mind those same British guys would have been more than happy to procreate with women in other lands they might conquer. But having other men do that to your women is a losing proposition biologically to the male. It's not necessarily a losing proposition for the female.

    Taking your enemy's women has been part of warfare, and continues to be to this day. So deep down there is an aversion in men to seeing their women pair with outside men.

    Now what changes over time is who is considered an outsider. Different white ethnics, when they first came to America and still spoke their native languages, probably had a higher aversion to marriage outside their group then they did after they all learned English and essentially became white. I hear stories about Irish boys being beaten up for trying to date girls in an Italian neighborhood, etc., etc. But after everyone speaks the same language and becomes culturally similar, such objections receded.

    Of course as SPMoore8 points out, the differences between blacks and whites is greater than the differences between various white ethnics. So it is understandable that it has taken longer for whites and blacks to see each other in the same way as whites see one another.

    “I don’t think it is hard to understand. Consider this example. When Rome conquered Britain they encouraged their soldiers to marry local women. From the perspective of the local women, this was not such a bad proposal. Since the Romans were the rulers and weren’t leaving any time soon, marrying a Roman would mean her kids would be in the ruling class. Marrying a local guy would ensure she and her kids would remain in the under class.”

    Marrying a Roman would potentially mean her male offspring would have a better shot at becoming part of the ruling class.

    “It’s biological, not racial or discriminatory. Keep in mind those same British guys would have been more than happy to procreate with women in other lands they might conquer. But having other men do that to your women is a losing proposition biologically to the male. It’s not necessarily a losing proposition for the female.”

    Not if those same British guys were granted Roman citizenship, which they received. Then this “biological competition” becomes a non-factor.

    “Taking your enemy’s women has been part of warfare, and continues to be to this day. So deep down there is an aversion in men to seeing their women pair with outside men.”

    Assuming that today it is considered an act of war for white people to marry outside of their race.

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  121. @Intelligent Dasein
    This is absolute BS of the first order. Normal White women do not go mudsharking around with black men in any significant numbers. I think your "anecdotes" must derive from excessive adult viewing habits.

    “Normal White women do not go mudsharking around with black men in any significant numbers.”

    Normal people don’t refer to white women having children with black men as”mudsharking”.

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  122. @Anonymous
    What part of the country do you live in? What ethnicity are you? A Southern Sorority type white woman (e.g. Erin Andrews) marrying an Asian/Mestizo guy would certainly face a lot of social rejection even in 2016. Just a fact - I 'm a guy in Austin/Houston who knows such people socially. Steve - you lived in Houston during undergrad, chime in!!

    New England and then New York both up and downstate, WASP.

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  123. @Anonymous
    What part of the country do you live in? What ethnicity are you? A Southern Sorority type white woman (e.g. Erin Andrews) marrying an Asian/Mestizo guy would certainly face a lot of social rejection even in 2016. Just a fact - I 'm a guy in Austin/Houston who knows such people socially. Steve - you lived in Houston during undergrad, chime in!!

    A Southern Sorority type white woman (e.g. Erin Andrews) marrying an Asian/Mestizo guy would certainly face a lot of social rejection even in 2016.

    Depends on his status/that of his family.

    A young white guy on the come would get more leeway, but that’s it.

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  124. @Mr. Blank
    One shouldn't discount black female preferences in all this.

    I know a lot of iSteve readers aren't fans of black women, looks-wise, but it's not a universally-shared view. Some non-black men have a different opinion. And no, it's not just because they "can't get a white woman." For men who focus on certain physical features, black women offer better, um, opportunities...

    Black women, on the other hand, almost never find non-black men attractive. Feel free to speculate as to why, but the practical effect of this black female resistance to jungle fever is that, generally speaking, only very upper-class non-black men get a chance to scratch that particular itch -- at least without resorting to the Oldest Profession.

    Absent this factor, I suspect the number of interracial relationships would actually rise quite a bit. Not dramatically -- I suspect that black male/white female pairings would still be the most common, by far -- but not trivially, either.

    Black women, on the other hand, almost never find non-black men attractive.

    Maybe viscerally, but I always had black women looking for an advantageous match, Austen-style, after me in my single days.

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    • Replies: @Intelligent Dasein

    Black women, on the other hand, almost never find non-black men attractive.
     
    I, too, find this statement completely absurd. Black women come on to me all the time, even sometimes when their black husbands are also present. Judging from the resigned look on the husbands' faces, this is a recurring phenomenon and "the girl can't help it."

    When I was a very, very young man and in no position to be in a serious relationship with anyone, I was briefly shanghaied by an older black woman. She was 30, I was 20. She had a successful position in a bank, I had no job at all. And she was pretty as well. I had so many problems at that point in my life that I literally could not conceive of the idea that I would be desired by anyone. Thus, I never actually realized we were dating. I thought she was just hanging out with me to be charitable. We went to movies and dinners, and hung out at her house sometimes, and we regularly saw each other at kung fu class, which is where we met. She was a fairly religious Jehovah's Witness, so she did not try to get overtly sexual with me, but she flirted with me as much as she dared, and I was too naive and troubled to pick up on it at the time. I met the woman's mother on a couple of occasions, and she too was pushing for the relationship. Only when circumstances compelled me to leave did I realize how much she liked me, because her feelings were genuinely hurt. Her anger and scorn were a sight to behold. This is one of those things I wish I could go back and do differently, because I never meant to hurt her. I just didn't know what I was doing.

    A few months ago I was in the grocery store in the laundry aisle. A nice black lady with a sweet disposition came up to me and gave me a long disquisition on the relative merits of the various brands of aroma crystals. She liked to mix and match them with each other and make her own special blends at home. There was no guile in her approach or mental defect in her cognition, and she seemed innocently enthused to share this information with me. It was all rather charming in a way, and I could not think the less of her nor regret the ten minutes I spent listening to this most unusual of lectures.

    The sense of compassion that I feel for womankind does not fail to extend itself to black women, especially the good-natured ones who are sincerely looking for a mate who will love them and be good to them. I hope they find somebody. If I were ever to marry a black woman (something I regard as most unlikely), I would immediately shut down any chatter about my "interracial" marriage that I heard around me. I would give it to people to know that this is my wife and these are my children, full stop. We would not be a family that played the race game at all; we would carry ourselves as, and expected to be treated as, a normal American family. At least in my private corner of the world, race would finally be a non-issue.
  125. From the Kopf article:

    In 2010, 1.8% of all new marriages were between Blacks and Whites, nearly twenty times higher than in 1950. And more than 15% were “intermarriages” – marriages between people who don’t identify as the same racial or ethnic group, up from 6.7% in 1980.

    Aaron Levenstein said, “Statistics are like a bikini. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.”

    There are many things going on here. First, the quote from the article means (among other things) that after a half century of being legal, something like 98% of whites still won’t marry blacks. I say, “whites won’t marry blacks” rather than “blacks won’t marry whites,” because what the statistics really conceal is the fact that (just like in the past) modern blacks want to be around whites at a far, far greater rate than modern whites want to be around blacks. This is manifested in the life choices of well off whites, regardless of their political views. Whites, by and large, choose not to live around, or send their children to school with, blacks. (Remember Chelsea Clinton in the 1990′s?) Yet the concept of integration is largely pursued by blacks.

    This applies to marriage, as well. Yes, the vast majority of black men don’t want wives, opting instead for live-in sex partners, but among the population of whites who still actually marry, this black aversion to marriage is just another good reason to stay away from blacks when looking for potential spouses. Choosing a spouse from a culture that places little importance on marriage makes little sense. I don’t care that the article claims that 30-plus percent of people polled say they accept “the idea” of interracial marriage – that’s analogous to the probably 100% of Americans who claim they believe, “all men are created equal.” It’s a channeling of prevailing doxa, rather than a concept that they use to guide their own lives.

    However, as I implied, marriage is becoming less popular, even among young whites, so it’s true that using interracial marriage as a measurement for interracial mating is understating the numbers. But the stats also don’t reveal that whites are becoming more politically and philosophically stratified than they ever have been in the past. Christian marriage – or the rejection of it – is a dividing line among whites that most (whites) wont cross, even those who are divorced and remarried.

    So, when all is said and done, the current 1.8% interracial marriage rate between whites and blacks reveals that the Supreme Court decision allowing interracial marriage back in the 1960′s was far from the flood gate being opened that the left wanted it to be. Instead, the current rate of black/white intermarriage shows that old laws banning interracial marriage reflected a normal and natural tendency, at least among whites.

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  126. @Desiderius

    Black women, on the other hand, almost never find non-black men attractive.
     
    Maybe viscerally, but I always had black women looking for an advantageous match, Austen-style, after me in my single days.

    Black women, on the other hand, almost never find non-black men attractive.

    I, too, find this statement completely absurd. Black women come on to me all the time, even sometimes when their black husbands are also present. Judging from the resigned look on the husbands’ faces, this is a recurring phenomenon and “the girl can’t help it.”

    When I was a very, very young man and in no position to be in a serious relationship with anyone, I was briefly shanghaied by an older black woman. She was 30, I was 20. She had a successful position in a bank, I had no job at all. And she was pretty as well. I had so many problems at that point in my life that I literally could not conceive of the idea that I would be desired by anyone. Thus, I never actually realized we were dating. I thought she was just hanging out with me to be charitable. We went to movies and dinners, and hung out at her house sometimes, and we regularly saw each other at kung fu class, which is where we met. She was a fairly religious Jehovah’s Witness, so she did not try to get overtly sexual with me, but she flirted with me as much as she dared, and I was too naive and troubled to pick up on it at the time. I met the woman’s mother on a couple of occasions, and she too was pushing for the relationship. Only when circumstances compelled me to leave did I realize how much she liked me, because her feelings were genuinely hurt. Her anger and scorn were a sight to behold. This is one of those things I wish I could go back and do differently, because I never meant to hurt her. I just didn’t know what I was doing.

    A few months ago I was in the grocery store in the laundry aisle. A nice black lady with a sweet disposition came up to me and gave me a long disquisition on the relative merits of the various brands of aroma crystals. She liked to mix and match them with each other and make her own special blends at home. There was no guile in her approach or mental defect in her cognition, and she seemed innocently enthused to share this information with me. It was all rather charming in a way, and I could not think the less of her nor regret the ten minutes I spent listening to this most unusual of lectures.

    The sense of compassion that I feel for womankind does not fail to extend itself to black women, especially the good-natured ones who are sincerely looking for a mate who will love them and be good to them. I hope they find somebody. If I were ever to marry a black woman (something I regard as most unlikely), I would immediately shut down any chatter about my “interracial” marriage that I heard around me. I would give it to people to know that this is my wife and these are my children, full stop. We would not be a family that played the race game at all; we would carry ourselves as, and expected to be treated as, a normal American family. At least in my private corner of the world, race would finally be a non-issue.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Desiderius

    I, too, find this statement completely absurd.
     
    It's not completely absurd. Few white men demonstrate the level of dominance required to get a black woman's motor started*. There's a difference between arousal/attraction and recognizing a useful match. Most black women are nothing if not practical.

    * - my guess is that low-level Aspergers can come across as ZFG dominance in the right light - i.e. if she already has a reason to want to see it that way.

    the good-natured ones who are sincerely looking for a mate who will love them and be good to them
     
    There are also more black women than white who appreciate the traditional sex-roles/conservative values in matters of love and marriage. I do see this starting to change, but only with men who are sufficiently dominant (i.e. white women getting better).
  127. @Ed
    Rare but not unheard of, a Ford heiress married the light skin son of a local Detroit anchorwoman. Evidently they went to school together.

    http://www.deadlinedetroit.com/articles/5591/a_match_made_in_midtown_bill_ford_s_daughter_marries_carmen_harlan_s_son#.V_MmyzT3anM

    Don’t forget Michelle Rhee (OK, she’s Asian) and Kevin Johnson.

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  128. @Corvinus
    "Read my first sentence, genius."

    You do realize that anecdotal evidence is subject to personal bias, right?

    "But, if you really want data, just go to your local Walmart for an afternoon. No middle class and up white women wants that for her daughter."

    Since you insist on personal stories, here is one. My local Walmart has a number of middle class folks who shop there. You seem to be under the false impression that all or most Walmarts attract "white trash".

    "But while they may not be able to define it, middle class and up white women have an instinctual understand of genetics and regression to the mean."

    What scientific basis do you have in support of this statement? Yes, mothers have instincts regarding the physical protection of their young when there is overt danger, but you are conjuring up something completely different here when you insist there is a nature component, that non-whites are other than safe bets when it comes to dating and mating.

    "Look Who's Coming to Dinner" type upper middle class black male - white female marriages are fairly rare in 21st Century America."

    I would like to see some numbers here.

    I like Walmart. Sadly, the yuppie area where I live would never allow one. They ran off a Home Depot years ago.

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  129. We are constantly lectured by unpaid interns at online magazines about just how virulently sexist and racist America was until, well, some dim point in the distant past before they started paying attention…

    The phrase I coined, as reflected in the zeitgeist: “Everything before yesterday was wrong.”

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  130. @Granesperanzablanco
    Lower class white men the losers? Not so long as there are Asian women around

    The losers are Black women and Asian men in the aggregate but I like to think there is someone for everyone

    Don’t get in the way of Whiskey’s bizarre fantasies

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  131. @Numinous
    The British population in India in the 1600s and 1700s was almost entirely male, so they really had no choice. Even then, formal marriage (as opposed to shacking up) was officially frowned upon, if not actively discouraged, by the Company. By the 1800s, when British conquests in India grew in size, the British stopped thinking of Indians as just a different people with a different culture and started thinking of them as an inferior people with an inferior culture. Plus women and married people figured in much larger numbers among the new arrivals. So taboos against intermarriage or even liaisons got well-hardened. The resulting apartheid-like situation was one of the triggers for large scale revolts of the native soldiers against their official class in 1857.

    As I recall, the East India Company even banned Christian proselytization until around the mid 19th century

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  132. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @Corvinus
    "Read my first sentence, genius."

    You do realize that anecdotal evidence is subject to personal bias, right?

    "But, if you really want data, just go to your local Walmart for an afternoon. No middle class and up white women wants that for her daughter."

    Since you insist on personal stories, here is one. My local Walmart has a number of middle class folks who shop there. You seem to be under the false impression that all or most Walmarts attract "white trash".

    "But while they may not be able to define it, middle class and up white women have an instinctual understand of genetics and regression to the mean."

    What scientific basis do you have in support of this statement? Yes, mothers have instincts regarding the physical protection of their young when there is overt danger, but you are conjuring up something completely different here when you insist there is a nature component, that non-whites are other than safe bets when it comes to dating and mating.

    "Look Who's Coming to Dinner" type upper middle class black male - white female marriages are fairly rare in 21st Century America."

    I would like to see some numbers here.

    This may answer some of your questions.

    http://www.businessinsider.com/this-is-the-highest-earning-type-of-interracial-couple-2012-2

    Asian couples, including mixed couples with either an Asian husband or wife, dominated the combined earnings in 2010, out-earning other mixed couples by $10,000, according to The Rise of Intermarriage study by the Pew Research Center.

    newlyweds race earnings PewPew Research Center

    Pure Asian couples earned on average $62,000 while mixed couples earned around $71,000.

    On the other end of the spectrum, newly married couples of Hispanic descent make the lowest combined earnings of about $35,600 per year. Hispanics who married “out” of their race and tied the knot with whites earn significantly more than those who married “in.”

    According to the study, the newlywed pattern depicts a bigger picture:

    “The earning differences of couples reflect the general pattern of income disparity among families of different racial and ethnic background in the U.S. In 2009, the median family income was $75,027 for Asians, $62,545 for whites, $39,730 for Hispanics, and $38,409 for black families.”

    Median Combined Income for Different Newlywed

    AsianHusband-White Wife $71,800
    White Husband-Asian Wife $70,952
    Asian-Asian $62,000
    White Husb – Hisp Wife $60,990
    White Husb – Black Wife $60,762
    White – White $60,000
    Hisp Husb – White Wife $53,000
    Black Husb – White Wife $52,660
    Black – Black $47,700
    Hisp – Hisp $35, 578

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    • Replies: @Corvinus
    Thanks for the link. So it seems to pay off dividends in the end for race mixing to occur in this and other ways.

    http://metro.co.uk/2015/07/03/mixed-race-people-taller-and-smarter-study-says-5277767/
  133. @Mr. Blank
    One shouldn't discount black female preferences in all this.

    I know a lot of iSteve readers aren't fans of black women, looks-wise, but it's not a universally-shared view. Some non-black men have a different opinion. And no, it's not just because they "can't get a white woman." For men who focus on certain physical features, black women offer better, um, opportunities...

    Black women, on the other hand, almost never find non-black men attractive. Feel free to speculate as to why, but the practical effect of this black female resistance to jungle fever is that, generally speaking, only very upper-class non-black men get a chance to scratch that particular itch -- at least without resorting to the Oldest Profession.

    Absent this factor, I suspect the number of interracial relationships would actually rise quite a bit. Not dramatically -- I suspect that black male/white female pairings would still be the most common, by far -- but not trivially, either.

    I think you’re about as wrong as it gets on this point. Black girls are generally open to whatever but hoodrats don’t have very much opportunity to socialize with white dudes of any social stratum.

    Anti-racism people get most things wrong but they’re right in that whites are so omnipresent in media culture that pretty much any ethnic group finds them, on the whole, at least modestly attractive.

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  134. @Steve Sailer
    "Look Who's Coming to Dinner" type upper middle class black male - white female marriages are fairly rare in 21st Century America.

    Does RG3 and a host of other Black athletes marrying White women count? Money is money, White chicks will do what they have to do to get close to it.

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  135. @Stealth
    Your last paragraph brings something to mind that I thought the other day:

    As long as the offspring of B/W interracial couplings consider themselves black, then the black population will become whiter, not the reverse. It seems that a lot of mixed race AA's really do go the extra mile to prove themselves sufficiently black, and that includes taking black romantic partners. The president himself has been mentioned as an example of this.

    Obama's daughters are at least one quarter white. If they have children with black men, that white heritage will be passed on into the black population. If they have children with white men, their children will consider themselves black, and the process will merely be delayed for a generation. If this continues, presuming we don't import a large new African diaspora, the "black" Americans of the future might bear a striking resemblance to Shaun King.

    They will claim whatever lineage that brings them privilege. Remember, many Blacks used to try to “pass” for White. Why? Because back then, THAT brought you privilege. Now? Heh..

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  136. @Triumph104
    California's anti-miscegenation law prevented whites from marrying "Negroes, mulattoes, Mongolians, and Malays". The law was overturned based on a suit from a white Mexican American woman who wanted to marry a black American man.

    In her epic book, On Gold Mountain, Lisa See details how California's law affected her family. Her Chinese great-grandfather and her white great-grandmother had a "contract marriage" drawn up by a lawyer. See's mixed-race grandfather and his three brothers had to go to Mexico to marry their white wives. If I recall correctly, in the 1800s only 10% of Chinese immigrants to the US were women, with many being prostitutes.

    http://www.mixedheritagecenter.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1418

    There was a interesting time in CA history where Indian Sikhs immigrated to agricultural areas in the Central Valley (and were successful) but were “non-white” so were not allowed to bring in wives. They ended up marrying Mexican women who were “white” by law. Apparently nobody really cared though because miscegenation laws were technically broken with these unions

    Anyone who thinks this was only a white black issue before WW2 does not know West Coast History. Miscegenation laws and racial covenants on housing titles were just as focused on Japanese, Chinese and Filipinos. By law Mexicans were considered white no matter how mestizo.

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    • Replies: @Whoever

    Anyone who thinks this was only a white black issue before WW2 does not know West Coast History. Miscegenation laws and racial covenants on housing titles were just as focused on Japanese, Chinese and Filipinos.
     
    Anti-Asian discrimination was widespread in other areas of California life as well.
    Here's an editorial from the Oct. 16, 1944, Los Angeles Examiner that pretty much lays out how the Japanese were viewed in California at that time:
    http://i.imgur.com/19q6jD5.jpg
  137. When we talk about interracial marriage in American I am reminded of the determination of the original Siamese Twins Chang and Eng

    This would actually make for a really weird movie.

    Determined to live as normal a life they could, Chang and Eng settled on their small plantation and bought slaves to do the work they could not do themselves.[7] Using their adopted name “Bunker”, they married local women on April 13, 1843. Chang wed Adelaide Yates (1823-1917), while Eng married her sister, Sarah Anne (1822-1892). The twins also became naturalized American citizens.[8]

    The couples shared a bed built for four in their Traphill home. Chang and Adelaide would become the parents of eleven children. Eng and Sarah had ten. After a number of years, the sisters began to dislike each other[9] and separate households were set up west of Mount Airy, North Carolina in the town of White Plains. The brothers would alternately spend three days at each home. During the American Civil War, Chang’s son Christopher and Eng’s son Stephen both served in the Confederate army. The twins lost most of their money with the defeat of the Confederacy and became very bitter.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chang_and_Eng_Bunker

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  138. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    In the mid-90s, while in my early 30s and living in Miami, I met and seriously dated a very attractive South American-born, half Dutch, half SE Asian Indian who immigrated to Miami at age 19, mastered English, earned her BS and MS degrees in nursing, and worked as a $100K+ per year ARNP. Two male family members described her as the most beautiful woman they’ve every seen. After a few years of dating, I recognized the truth to the old saying “if you want to be happy for the rest of your life, never make a beautiful woman your wife.” She’s in her early 50s now and, other than the extra 40 lbs, can still turn heads; and still childless and unmarried.

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  139. @Hapalong Cassidy
    "As for the Welsh not being regarded as White, that’s simply absurd."

    The Tudors were Welsh, for cryin' out loud. Of the British Isle Celts, the Welsh were always considered less alien to the English than the Scots or Irish were. The roots of that may go back even to Roman times. Wales was part of Brittania, while Scotland and Ireland never were.

    Which is extraordinary, since IIRC the Welsh are thought to be the remnants of the first humans to immigrate to Britain, the ones who invaded no one because no one was there to invade. The other ethnic groups of the island arrived later.

    Given the tendency of invading groups to have children among the repressed groups but not accept genetic contributions into themselves, we might then expect the Welsh to be the most mixed, and old Norman families the least.

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  140. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    While studying for my MBA at the University of FL in the late ’90s, I dated a very attractive Taiwanese 25-year old. She reminded me of an exotic, sexy bad-girl character from a James Bond movie. While in the states she was determined to enjoy herself and American men, well, at least me for several months. After graduation she with reunited in Germany with her German Duetsche Bank banker boyfriend and they later married. She was quite the “adventuress.”

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  141. we might then expect the Welsh to be the most mixed, and old Norman families the least

    There weren’t enough Normans to make a dent. Plus they were mostly there for the money – fending off the Kings of France, not to mention the various Dukes of Anjou et. al, wasn’t cheap.

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  142. @granesperanzablanco
    When we talk about interracial marriage in American I am reminded of the determination of the original Siamese Twins Chang and Eng

    This would actually make for a really weird movie.

    Determined to live as normal a life they could, Chang and Eng settled on their small plantation and bought slaves to do the work they could not do themselves.[7] Using their adopted name "Bunker", they married local women on April 13, 1843. Chang wed Adelaide Yates (1823-1917), while Eng married her sister, Sarah Anne (1822-1892). The twins also became naturalized American citizens.[8]

    The couples shared a bed built for four in their Traphill home. Chang and Adelaide would become the parents of eleven children. Eng and Sarah had ten. After a number of years, the sisters began to dislike each other[9] and separate households were set up west of Mount Airy, North Carolina in the town of White Plains. The brothers would alternately spend three days at each home. During the American Civil War, Chang's son Christopher and Eng's son Stephen both served in the Confederate army. The twins lost most of their money with the defeat of the Confederacy and became very bitter.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chang_and_Eng_Bunker

    Sounds natural for a Tim Burton movie.

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    • Replies: @MC
    Well, he clearly has some interest in Siamese twins:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Fish
  143. @Steve Sailer
    Sounds natural for a Tim Burton movie.

    Well, he clearly has some interest in Siamese twins:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Fish

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    • Replies: @ben tillman

    Well, he clearly has some interest in Siamese twins:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Fish
     

    Speaking of which, the marriages of Chang and Eng Bunker with North Carolina farm girls in 1843 didn't seem to cause much controversy.
  144. @Citizen of a Silly Country
    "Any data to back up your claim? Because all you have is YOUR observation."

    Read my first sentence, genius.

    But, if you really want data, just go to your local Walmart for an afternoon. No middle class and up white women wants that for her daughter.

    "Dating someone who is less than their own social standing, regardless of race, could be considered “trash”."

    True. But while they may not be able to define it, middle class and up white women have an instinctual understand of genetics and regression to the mean. (Remember when women were very worried about whether their children's suitors came from a "good" family.) They know what dooms their posterity for an eternity and what causes a - hopefully - temporary set-back.

    “True. But while they may not be able to define it, middle class and up white women have an instinctual understand of genetics and regression to the mean.”

    Seems true on a gut level, though I don’t have any numbers. But what’s apparent after 50 years of interracial marriage is how the children identify: absentee black fathers are idealized while white mothers are taken for granted or resented. Biracial children overwhelmingly identify with their black side, perhaps due to appearance and treatment at school, or perhaps something deeper. Whatever the reason, there’s not much upside for the white mom and many of us view Obama’s mother as a cautionary tale.

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  145. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    Biracial children overwhelmingly identify with their black side, perhaps due to appearance and treatment at school, or perhaps something deeper.

    Due to positive treatment, that is. The opinion makers in the country lionize blacks, and the institutions offer them many benefits not available to Whites.

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  146. @Jess Sayan
    The OKCupid data showed that white women ignored 79% of black men's messages and 71% of white men's. Not a gigantic difference IMO.

    I’ve heard of other studies that showed patterns like “average black man needs to make $100k/year more than average white guy to get the attention of average white female”. I’ve often wondered if assimilation made a difference. It’s very easy to see why even a swpl far left liberal white feminist female would not be interested in average or even affluent black men. The culture gap is just so wide. I’ve actually spoken to white females who said that they didn’t have a problem with the looks of all black men but that they felt zero in common with them culturally.

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  147. @Busby
    You must be unfamiliar with life in the military.

    Mixed marriages have been common place for over forty years.

    You must be unfamiliar with life in the military.
    Mixed-race marriages have been commonplace for over forty years.

    If not earlier. I’d push it back to the Occupation of Japan–at least that’s when the door was opened. Recall the James Michener novel, Sayonara, made into a movie with Marlon Brando. Then there was his collection, Tales of the South Pacific, about the Navy in the New Hebrides during WW2, made into a musical and a movie. That had interracial romantic interests as well.
    It can be a shock for a person who grew up as part of a Forward Deployed Naval Forces family–a life where everybody was just American–to have to navigate the baffling and dismaying racial minefields of civilian American life.
    Here’re a couple of cartoons from a Japan occupation-era Navy publication that illustrate how it was:

    View post on imgur.com

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    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Here's my Taki's column about how Obama's mother was acting out the messages of James Michener books and Rogers & Hammerstein musicals (and a Michener - Rogers & Hammerstein musical, South Pacific):

    http://takimag.com/article/obama_the_musical_steve_sailer/print#axzz4M4Rd3hrw

  148. @Anonymous
    This may answer some of your questions.

    http://www.businessinsider.com/this-is-the-highest-earning-type-of-interracial-couple-2012-2

    Asian couples, including mixed couples with either an Asian husband or wife, dominated the combined earnings in 2010, out-earning other mixed couples by $10,000, according to The Rise of Intermarriage study by the Pew Research Center.

    newlyweds race earnings PewPew Research Center

    Pure Asian couples earned on average $62,000 while mixed couples earned around $71,000.

    On the other end of the spectrum, newly married couples of Hispanic descent make the lowest combined earnings of about $35,600 per year. Hispanics who married "out" of their race and tied the knot with whites earn significantly more than those who married "in."

    According to the study, the newlywed pattern depicts a bigger picture:

    "The earning differences of couples reflect the general pattern of income disparity among families of different racial and ethnic background in the U.S. In 2009, the median family income was $75,027 for Asians, $62,545 for whites, $39,730 for Hispanics, and $38,409 for black families."

    Median Combined Income for Different Newlywed

    AsianHusband-White Wife $71,800
    White Husband-Asian Wife $70,952
    Asian-Asian $62,000
    White Husb - Hisp Wife $60,990
    White Husb - Black Wife $60,762
    White - White $60,000
    Hisp Husb - White Wife $53,000
    Black Husb - White Wife $52,660
    Black - Black $47,700
    Hisp - Hisp $35, 578

    Thanks for the link. So it seems to pay off dividends in the end for race mixing to occur in this and other ways.

    http://metro.co.uk/2015/07/03/mixed-race-people-taller-and-smarter-study-says-5277767/

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    • Replies: @Antonymous
    Misleading title, of course. It depends on which half of the couple you're normalizing to. Are mixed race people "taller and smarter" than their european-descended parent, or the global average, which is both shorter and lower-IQ than europeans?
  149. @Whoever

    You must be unfamiliar with life in the military.
    Mixed-race marriages have been commonplace for over forty years.
     
    If not earlier. I'd push it back to the Occupation of Japan--at least that's when the door was opened. Recall the James Michener novel, Sayonara, made into a movie with Marlon Brando. Then there was his collection, Tales of the South Pacific, about the Navy in the New Hebrides during WW2, made into a musical and a movie. That had interracial romantic interests as well.
    It can be a shock for a person who grew up as part of a Forward Deployed Naval Forces family--a life where everybody was just American--to have to navigate the baffling and dismaying racial minefields of civilian American life.
    Here're a couple of cartoons from a Japan occupation-era Navy publication that illustrate how it was:
    http://i.imgur.com/cQHN3L6.jpg

    Here’s my Taki’s column about how Obama’s mother was acting out the messages of James Michener books and Rogers & Hammerstein musicals (and a Michener – Rogers & Hammerstein musical, South Pacific):

    http://takimag.com/article/obama_the_musical_steve_sailer/print#axzz4M4Rd3hrw

    Read More
    • Replies: @Whoever
    Very interesting article. Lots of food for thought. Thanks for the link. (^_^)
    , @PiltdownMan
    The book you mention Cold War Orientalism: Asia in the Middlebrow Imagination, 1945-1961 sounds interesting.

    It's impossible to tell, of course, but another book from that time, The Ugly American, may well have inspired Stanley Ann Dunham's further travels and work, to Indonesia and work with the Ford Foundation and US Agency for International Development. William Lederer and Eugene Burdick's book was published in 1958 and as with Michener's Tales of the South Pacific was both hugely popular and became canonical to a whole young crowd back then, inspriring them to seek careers in helping third-world societies. I've met a number of older Americans in South-East Asia who said as much.

    The titular ugly American is actually the hero of the book, a plain spoken, humble mid-western engineer who actually goes to villages and gets in the mud to help them develop a water pump. Although, paradoxically, the term Ugly American became shorthand for the villains of the book, American diplomats and development experts who lived luxurious expatriate lives, cutoff from the very societies they were supposed to engage with.

    Stanley Ann Dunham's career seems to have straddled both worlds. After all, her jobs and the funding for what she did came from that very establishment she must have sought to leave behind. But her village level anthropological work, her marriage to Soetoro and putting young Barry in a local school must have been a kind of compensation for the nice Ford Foundation and USAID jobs.

    As a footnote, Gene Burdick also wrote a book 'The Blue of Capricorn', which is a very good companion read to Michener's Tales of the South Pacific. Published in 1962, it interleaves short stories with anthropological content from the South Pacific and Melanesia. Apparently, it was popular then, but unknown now. My dad had a copy in his bookshelf, and I recommend it to those with an interest in HBD.
  150. @Ed
    That doesn't ring true from what I see in my working class area. Sure some white guys get knocked up by blacks but I mostly see young white couples. None of the bartenders at the watering holes I frequent are with blacks. There are plenty of white women for lower class white men. It's also not uncommon to see a white woman with a mixed race child & a white child around these parts.

    “Sure some white guys get knocked up… ”

    What messed-up area are you living in?

    Couldn’t resist.

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  151. @Alec Leamas

    Which race would that be, exactly? Do you think the British people are (or were) all of the same ethnic group?
     
    You're slipping the rabbit into the hat here. Race is broader than ethnicity. Peoples of the home nations needn't be of a single ethnicity to all fall within a single race. IIRC, genetic studies of those same peoples find them near genetically indistinguishable despite long political or social divisions.

    IIRC, genetic studies of those same peoples find them near genetically indistinguishable despite long political or social divisions.

    That might be true although it’s perhaps more significant to ask if they think of themselves as belonging to the same ethnicity. As recently as the 1980s (when I was there) even the Cornish considered themselves to be quite distinct from the English. They possibly still do. Cultural differences are a lot more significant than genetic differences.

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  152. anon says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @AndrewR
    Anyone who treats Hispanics as a race is a fool. Are we really dupposed to believe that Cameron Diaz, Sammy Sosa, Evo Morales and Alberto Fujimori are all the same race?

    amerindians are a race a lot of hispanics have little anerindian blood and some are 110% hispanic cultures usually have about 16 different terms for the different types of admixture, upper class south americans are european spanishas white as you or i

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  153. @Hapalong Cassidy
    Some other actors had noteworthy "predilections". John Wayne had a thing for Meztizas, while Marlon Brando really liked Polynesians.

    “Some other actors had noteworthy “predilections”. John Wayne had a thing for Meztizas, while Marlon Brando really liked Polynesians.”

    For a really specialized predilection, there was Raymond “Perry Mason” Burr. He was gay, and preferred young Tongan men.

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  154. @Ed
    Rare but not unheard of, a Ford heiress married the light skin son of a local Detroit anchorwoman. Evidently they went to school together.

    http://www.deadlinedetroit.com/articles/5591/a_match_made_in_midtown_bill_ford_s_daughter_marries_carmen_harlan_s_son#.V_MmyzT3anM

    The Ford heiress’s grandfather owns the Detroit Lions.

    Ahmad Rashad was married to the ex-wife of the New York Jets owner. Rashad and his then-wife adopted his Kazakhstan-born step-granddaughter after the child’s adopted mother, Casey Johnson, died. (PHOTO)

    This year Rashad married a Hispanic woman who is a clinical social worker/therapist working on her PhD in marriage and family therapy. She has also acted.

    The billionaire owner of the Philadelphia Eagles married a Vietnamese woman a few years ago.

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  155. @MC
    Well, he clearly has some interest in Siamese twins:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Fish

    Well, he clearly has some interest in Siamese twins:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Fish

    Speaking of which, the marriages of Chang and Eng Bunker with North Carolina farm girls in 1843 didn’t seem to cause much controversy.

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    • Replies: @Marina
    I remember hearing somewhere that the conjoined thing was considered a lot more scandalous than the Asian thing, but I can't remember where.
    , @Twinkie

    Speaking of which, the marriages of Chang and Eng Bunker with North Carolina farm girls in 1843 didn’t seem to cause much controversy.
     
    Actually I think it did stir up controversy initially, but when they (and more importantly their sons who served militarily) turned out to be loyal Confederates (and slave owners, to boot!), the families were accepted by the locals. Several of their descendants seemed to have done well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chang_and_Eng_Bunker#Descendants

    Chang and Eng Bunker fathered a total of 21 children, and their descendants now number more than 1,500.[15] Many of their descendants continue to reside in the vicinity of Mount Airy, and descendants of both brothers continue to hold joint reunions. Two hundred descendants reunited in Mount Airy in July 2011 for the twins' 200th birthday and for the descendants' 22nd annual reunion.[16]

    Prominent descendants include:
    United States Air Force Major General Caleb V. Haynes was a grandson of Chang Bunker through his daughter Margaret Elizabeth "Lizzie" Bunker.
    General Haynes's son, Vance Haynes, earned a doctorate in geosciences, performed foundational fieldwork at Sandia Cave to determine the timeline of human migration through North America, and served as professor at several universities.
    Alex Sink, former Chief Financial Officer of Florida, is a great-granddaughter of Chang Bunker and was the Democratic nominee in the 2010 Florida gubernatorial election.[17]
    Eng's grandson through his daughter Rosella, George F. Ashby, was President of the Union Pacific Railroad in the 1940s.[18][19]
    Chang's son, Christopher Wren Bunker, built Haystack Farm, which was listed on the National Register of Historic Places in 1982.[20][21]
    Composer Caroline Shaw is a great-great-granddaughter of Chang Bunker and won the Pulitzer Prize for Music in 2013.[22]
     
  156. @Citizen of a Silly Country
    Don't know about your parts, but where I live, even nice white ladies understand what kind of women marry and/or have babies with black guys.

    Middle-class and higher white women overwhelmingly - but quietly - look down on marrying blacks. It's fascinating to watch because these are the same women who love Oprah and never shut up about their love of diversity and other cultures. However, they definitely send signals to their daughters about black men.

    It's the same with them magically choosing to live in white neighborhoods despite being color-blind. Basically, they let their daughters know that dating black guys is sign of being white trash and there's nothing worse than being white trash.

    All of this reminds me of a friend of mine in college who introduced me to a game he played when we used to go a particularly cheap grocery store: Who can count the most mulatto kids with white moms. Winner gets a six-pack.

    You have to wonder about the long-term genetics of all of this. Will poor and working-class whites just fade into the Hispanic and, to a lesser degree, black populations, leaving only middle-class and up whites? What a wousy race that'd be.

    What a wousy race that’d be.

    Regression to mediocrity? Galton already prophesied the same.

    http://galton.org/essays/1880-1889/galton-1886-jaigi-regression-stature.pdf

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  157. @Corvinus
    Thanks for the link. So it seems to pay off dividends in the end for race mixing to occur in this and other ways.

    http://metro.co.uk/2015/07/03/mixed-race-people-taller-and-smarter-study-says-5277767/

    Misleading title, of course. It depends on which half of the couple you’re normalizing to. Are mixed race people “taller and smarter” than their european-descended parent, or the global average, which is both shorter and lower-IQ than europeans?

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  158. @ben tillman

    Well, he clearly has some interest in Siamese twins:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Fish
     

    Speaking of which, the marriages of Chang and Eng Bunker with North Carolina farm girls in 1843 didn't seem to cause much controversy.

    I remember hearing somewhere that the conjoined thing was considered a lot more scandalous than the Asian thing, but I can’t remember where.

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  159. @Anonymous
    What part of the country do you live in? What ethnicity are you? A Southern Sorority type white woman (e.g. Erin Andrews) marrying an Asian/Mestizo guy would certainly face a lot of social rejection even in 2016. Just a fact - I 'm a guy in Austin/Houston who knows such people socially. Steve - you lived in Houston during undergrad, chime in!!

    A Southern Sorority type white woman (e.g. Erin Andrews) marrying an Asian/Mestizo guy would certainly face a lot of social rejection even in 2016.

    I don’t know about “a Southern sorority type white woman,” whatever that means, but my wife is of the Anglo-German-Swedish stock from the Midwest. Her family is quite prominent in the area and is socially traditional and “old money.” And of course I am ethnically East Asian.

    When I first met her family, I was quite apprehensive about how I would be received. To my relief, they welcomed me into the family and have adopted me as one of their boys (my wife only has brothers). My father-in-law even tried to bring me into his family business (they own a substantial portfolio of farmland, commercial property, buildings, etc.).

    Most pleasantly, my wife’s grandparents wrote me a very moving and beautiful letter after they found out I proposed to her, in which they intimated that I was a fine young Christian gentleman and hoped all along that I would be “the one” for their granddaughter. When I was overseas frequently earlier in my life, I often received typewritten (!) letters of familiar comfort and patriotic exhortations from them.

    At her grandfather’s funeral, I was a pallbearer; I wept and spoke about his World War II experiences, about which we often talked while he was alive, as well as his deep love for his hometown and our shared country.

    So in my case, no one was ostracized. Not I and not my wife. In fact, at our engagement party, “the high society” as such of her hometown showed up. No one seemed nonplussed about the “interracial” marriage. But given what I heard in her family and the wider social circle, I think the reaction would have been considerably different had I been black or non-white Hispanic.

    Later one of my wife’s younger cousins met an East Asian man at church while attending Harvard Business School (where he was also a student) and married him. No rejection there either.

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    • Replies: @Marina
    My family aren't high society types, but my marriage was basically viewed as appropriately assortative. We went to the same selective college. Both my in laws are professionals. My husband was very well regarded academically in school and now has a successful career.

    He wasn't American and flights home were costly, so my family adopted him during all school breaks from the beginning and he has an independent close relationship with my father in particular. There may have been some component of parental relief there. I'm reasonably pretty, but I'm weird and have a spergy edge that is probably even less attractive in women than in men. I think half my relatives were just relieved I wasn't going to end up a cat lady.
  160. Way back then, in the 1980s, pretty much every social justice issue had already been taken care of.

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  161. @Granesperanzablanco
    Lower class white men the losers? Not so long as there are Asian women around

    The losers are Black women and Asian men in the aggregate but I like to think there is someone for everyone

    The losers are Black women and Asian men in the aggregate but I like to think there is someone for everyone

    This trope about Asian men has been beaten to death, but the numbers are quite different for *American-born* Asian males. They intermarry with white females at high rates (though at varying rates depending on ethnicity, i.e. Indians and Vietnamese at much lower rates than Koreans).

    Traditionally “the losers” were immigrant (Asian) males who had low status/low acculturation than immigrant females and therefore had greater difficulty attracting native-born partners. But due to increased immigration levels, immigrant Asian males can now find plenty of immigrant Asian females. Good for them, but bad for assimilation.

    Any way one cuts the data, Asians in America – both males and females – have the highest rates of marriage and the lowest rates of divorce, so it makes no sense to compare Asian men to black women who have low rates of marriage, high rates of divorce, and high rates of out-of-wedlock birth.

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  162. @ben tillman

    Well, he clearly has some interest in Siamese twins:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Fish
     

    Speaking of which, the marriages of Chang and Eng Bunker with North Carolina farm girls in 1843 didn't seem to cause much controversy.

    Speaking of which, the marriages of Chang and Eng Bunker with North Carolina farm girls in 1843 didn’t seem to cause much controversy.

    Actually I think it did stir up controversy initially, but when they (and more importantly their sons who served militarily) turned out to be loyal Confederates (and slave owners, to boot!), the families were accepted by the locals. Several of their descendants seemed to have done well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chang_and_Eng_Bunker#Descendants

    Chang and Eng Bunker fathered a total of 21 children, and their descendants now number more than 1,500.[15] Many of their descendants continue to reside in the vicinity of Mount Airy, and descendants of both brothers continue to hold joint reunions. Two hundred descendants reunited in Mount Airy in July 2011 for the twins’ 200th birthday and for the descendants’ 22nd annual reunion.[16]

    Prominent descendants include:
    United States Air Force Major General Caleb V. Haynes was a grandson of Chang Bunker through his daughter Margaret Elizabeth “Lizzie” Bunker.
    General Haynes’s son, Vance Haynes, earned a doctorate in geosciences, performed foundational fieldwork at Sandia Cave to determine the timeline of human migration through North America, and served as professor at several universities.
    Alex Sink, former Chief Financial Officer of Florida, is a great-granddaughter of Chang Bunker and was the Democratic nominee in the 2010 Florida gubernatorial election.[17]
    Eng’s grandson through his daughter Rosella, George F. Ashby, was President of the Union Pacific Railroad in the 1940s.[18][19]
    Chang’s son, Christopher Wren Bunker, built Haystack Farm, which was listed on the National Register of Historic Places in 1982.[20][21]
    Composer Caroline Shaw is a great-great-granddaughter of Chang Bunker and won the Pulitzer Prize for Music in 2013.[22]

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  163. @Numinous
    The British population in India in the 1600s and 1700s was almost entirely male, so they really had no choice. Even then, formal marriage (as opposed to shacking up) was officially frowned upon, if not actively discouraged, by the Company. By the 1800s, when British conquests in India grew in size, the British stopped thinking of Indians as just a different people with a different culture and started thinking of them as an inferior people with an inferior culture. Plus women and married people figured in much larger numbers among the new arrivals. So taboos against intermarriage or even liaisons got well-hardened. The resulting apartheid-like situation was one of the triggers for large scale revolts of the native soldiers against their official class in 1857.

    A couple of books that seem to cover the ground pretty well – Christopher Hibbert’s The Great Mutiny and William Dalrymple’s White Mughals.

    The consensus seems to be that when English and Scottish women started arriving in India in greater numbers circa 1830 they basically shut down the fraternization and intermarriage. White society matrons would take interest in the welfare of single East India Company men, and steer them toward eligible white girls.

    Where did these women arrive from? Apparently, there were boats, socialization cruises, of single white English girls who would make the arduous sea journey to India around the Cape of Good Hope, hoping to meet eligible bachelors in India. Sounds improbable, but apparently, it happened.

    The prim disapproval of contact with non-whites by mothers (and matronly figures in society) seems to be consistent with what some of the posters above have remarked about their observation of life here in earlier decades.

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    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    "The consensus seems to be that when English and Scottish women started arriving in India in greater numbers circa 1830 they basically shut down the fraternization and intermarriage."

    That theory is mentioned in a Tom Stoppard play.

    I think sometime the influx of white women into India is associated with the opening of the Suez Canal in 1870.

    Okay, I looked up the history of speeding up London to Bombay, and it turns out that it was a fairly steady process from 1830 onward

    In the days of sail, if you went to work for the East India Company you could expect to return home perhaps once before retirement; it was customary to grant a three-year furlough in mid-career. The voyage from England to India via the Cape of Good Hope took six months at least, and you might have another three or four months of traveling to do before reaching your final destination. Replies to letters, therefore, could well take over a year and a half to receive.

    The technology of steam was the driving force behind the Industrial Revolution, and it was the introduction of steam propulsion that made possible regular transit of the Red Sea. ...

    Before 1830 passengers bound for the East had no alternative to circumnavigating Africa. In that year the East India Company pioneered the Red Sea route with a small steamer, built in India, called the Hugh Lindsay.


    Then the Suez Canal opened in 1869.

    By 1914 London-Bombay was down to 3 weeks one way.
  164. @granesperanzablanco
    There was a interesting time in CA history where Indian Sikhs immigrated to agricultural areas in the Central Valley (and were successful) but were "non-white" so were not allowed to bring in wives. They ended up marrying Mexican women who were "white" by law. Apparently nobody really cared though because miscegenation laws were technically broken with these unions

    Anyone who thinks this was only a white black issue before WW2 does not know West Coast History. Miscegenation laws and racial covenants on housing titles were just as focused on Japanese, Chinese and Filipinos. By law Mexicans were considered white no matter how mestizo.

    Anyone who thinks this was only a white black issue before WW2 does not know West Coast History. Miscegenation laws and racial covenants on housing titles were just as focused on Japanese, Chinese and Filipinos.

    Anti-Asian discrimination was widespread in other areas of California life as well.
    Here’s an editorial from the Oct. 16, 1944, Los Angeles Examiner that pretty much lays out how the Japanese were viewed in California at that time:

    View post on imgur.com

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  165. @Intelligent Dasein

    Black women, on the other hand, almost never find non-black men attractive.
     
    I, too, find this statement completely absurd. Black women come on to me all the time, even sometimes when their black husbands are also present. Judging from the resigned look on the husbands' faces, this is a recurring phenomenon and "the girl can't help it."

    When I was a very, very young man and in no position to be in a serious relationship with anyone, I was briefly shanghaied by an older black woman. She was 30, I was 20. She had a successful position in a bank, I had no job at all. And she was pretty as well. I had so many problems at that point in my life that I literally could not conceive of the idea that I would be desired by anyone. Thus, I never actually realized we were dating. I thought she was just hanging out with me to be charitable. We went to movies and dinners, and hung out at her house sometimes, and we regularly saw each other at kung fu class, which is where we met. She was a fairly religious Jehovah's Witness, so she did not try to get overtly sexual with me, but she flirted with me as much as she dared, and I was too naive and troubled to pick up on it at the time. I met the woman's mother on a couple of occasions, and she too was pushing for the relationship. Only when circumstances compelled me to leave did I realize how much she liked me, because her feelings were genuinely hurt. Her anger and scorn were a sight to behold. This is one of those things I wish I could go back and do differently, because I never meant to hurt her. I just didn't know what I was doing.

    A few months ago I was in the grocery store in the laundry aisle. A nice black lady with a sweet disposition came up to me and gave me a long disquisition on the relative merits of the various brands of aroma crystals. She liked to mix and match them with each other and make her own special blends at home. There was no guile in her approach or mental defect in her cognition, and she seemed innocently enthused to share this information with me. It was all rather charming in a way, and I could not think the less of her nor regret the ten minutes I spent listening to this most unusual of lectures.

    The sense of compassion that I feel for womankind does not fail to extend itself to black women, especially the good-natured ones who are sincerely looking for a mate who will love them and be good to them. I hope they find somebody. If I were ever to marry a black woman (something I regard as most unlikely), I would immediately shut down any chatter about my "interracial" marriage that I heard around me. I would give it to people to know that this is my wife and these are my children, full stop. We would not be a family that played the race game at all; we would carry ourselves as, and expected to be treated as, a normal American family. At least in my private corner of the world, race would finally be a non-issue.

    I, too, find this statement completely absurd.

    It’s not completely absurd. Few white men demonstrate the level of dominance required to get a black woman’s motor started*. There’s a difference between arousal/attraction and recognizing a useful match. Most black women are nothing if not practical.

    * – my guess is that low-level Aspergers can come across as ZFG dominance in the right light – i.e. if she already has a reason to want to see it that way.

    the good-natured ones who are sincerely looking for a mate who will love them and be good to them

    There are also more black women than white who appreciate the traditional sex-roles/conservative values in matters of love and marriage. I do see this starting to change, but only with men who are sufficiently dominant (i.e. white women getting better).

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    • Replies: @TangoMan
    There are also more black women than white who appreciate the traditional sex-roles/conservative values in matters of love and marriage.

    I'm not seeing evidence of this.

    The contribution of African American women to couple time spent on housework and on childcare is also closer to an even 50% split than is observed within white households. The differences in this sector are more substantial when housework is defined more narrowly to include only routine tasks that every household must perform such as cooking, cleaning, laundry, and grocery shopping. . . . .

    A more recent paper by Kamo and Cohen (1998), however, presents evidence that African American men do contribute a significantly greater share of household housework time even after controlling for education, age, employment hours, income, cohabitation status, number of children, and gender attitudes.
     
  166. @PiltdownMan
    A couple of books that seem to cover the ground pretty well - Christopher Hibbert's The Great Mutiny and William Dalrymple's White Mughals.

    The consensus seems to be that when English and Scottish women started arriving in India in greater numbers circa 1830 they basically shut down the fraternization and intermarriage. White society matrons would take interest in the welfare of single East India Company men, and steer them toward eligible white girls.

    Where did these women arrive from? Apparently, there were boats, socialization cruises, of single white English girls who would make the arduous sea journey to India around the Cape of Good Hope, hoping to meet eligible bachelors in India. Sounds improbable, but apparently, it happened.

    The prim disapproval of contact with non-whites by mothers (and matronly figures in society) seems to be consistent with what some of the posters above have remarked about their observation of life here in earlier decades.

    “The consensus seems to be that when English and Scottish women started arriving in India in greater numbers circa 1830 they basically shut down the fraternization and intermarriage.”

    That theory is mentioned in a Tom Stoppard play.

    I think sometime the influx of white women into India is associated with the opening of the Suez Canal in 1870.

    Okay, I looked up the history of speeding up London to Bombay, and it turns out that it was a fairly steady process from 1830 onward

    In the days of sail, if you went to work for the East India Company you could expect to return home perhaps once before retirement; it was customary to grant a three-year furlough in mid-career. The voyage from England to India via the Cape of Good Hope took six months at least, and you might have another three or four months of traveling to do before reaching your final destination. Replies to letters, therefore, could well take over a year and a half to receive.

    The technology of steam was the driving force behind the Industrial Revolution, and it was the introduction of steam propulsion that made possible regular transit of the Red Sea. …

    Before 1830 passengers bound for the East had no alternative to circumnavigating Africa. In that year the East India Company pioneered the Red Sea route with a small steamer, built in India, called the Hugh Lindsay.

    Then the Suez Canal opened in 1869.

    By 1914 London-Bombay was down to 3 weeks one way.

    Read More
    • Replies: @PiltdownMan
    Yeah, I too was skeptical that young women would have traveled to India in numbers before the opening of the Suez Canal, risking death from disease on a long sea journey, simply to find a suitable husband. But it seems to have happened.

    I assume the same phenomenon obtained in Australia, where there was almost no intermarriage with the aboriginal population by the early male population of deportees. There is no sizable modern Australian mixed-breed population in-between Whites and Aborigines. They seem to be rarities (such as former tennis star Evonne Goolagong.)

    I assume there must have been young British women making the equally long, equally hard journey to Australia to find mates through the 1800s. I doubt that the entire male population of Australia had the wherewithal to travel back to England to get married. Anybody?

  167. @Steve Sailer
    Here's my Taki's column about how Obama's mother was acting out the messages of James Michener books and Rogers & Hammerstein musicals (and a Michener - Rogers & Hammerstein musical, South Pacific):

    http://takimag.com/article/obama_the_musical_steve_sailer/print#axzz4M4Rd3hrw

    Very interesting article. Lots of food for thought. Thanks for the link. (^_^)

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  168. @Steve Sailer
    Here's my Taki's column about how Obama's mother was acting out the messages of James Michener books and Rogers & Hammerstein musicals (and a Michener - Rogers & Hammerstein musical, South Pacific):

    http://takimag.com/article/obama_the_musical_steve_sailer/print#axzz4M4Rd3hrw

    The book you mention Cold War Orientalism: Asia in the Middlebrow Imagination, 1945-1961 sounds interesting.

    It’s impossible to tell, of course, but another book from that time, The Ugly American, may well have inspired Stanley Ann Dunham’s further travels and work, to Indonesia and work with the Ford Foundation and US Agency for International Development. William Lederer and Eugene Burdick’s book was published in 1958 and as with Michener’s Tales of the South Pacific was both hugely popular and became canonical to a whole young crowd back then, inspriring them to seek careers in helping third-world societies. I’ve met a number of older Americans in South-East Asia who said as much.

    The titular ugly American is actually the hero of the book, a plain spoken, humble mid-western engineer who actually goes to villages and gets in the mud to help them develop a water pump. Although, paradoxically, the term Ugly American became shorthand for the villains of the book, American diplomats and development experts who lived luxurious expatriate lives, cutoff from the very societies they were supposed to engage with.

    Stanley Ann Dunham’s career seems to have straddled both worlds. After all, her jobs and the funding for what she did came from that very establishment she must have sought to leave behind. But her village level anthropological work, her marriage to Soetoro and putting young Barry in a local school must have been a kind of compensation for the nice Ford Foundation and USAID jobs.

    As a footnote, Gene Burdick also wrote a book ‘The Blue of Capricorn’, which is a very good companion read to Michener’s Tales of the South Pacific. Published in 1962, it interleaves short stories with anthropological content from the South Pacific and Melanesia. Apparently, it was popular then, but unknown now. My dad had a copy in his bookshelf, and I recommend it to those with an interest in HBD.

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  169. @Steve Sailer
    "The consensus seems to be that when English and Scottish women started arriving in India in greater numbers circa 1830 they basically shut down the fraternization and intermarriage."

    That theory is mentioned in a Tom Stoppard play.

    I think sometime the influx of white women into India is associated with the opening of the Suez Canal in 1870.

    Okay, I looked up the history of speeding up London to Bombay, and it turns out that it was a fairly steady process from 1830 onward

    In the days of sail, if you went to work for the East India Company you could expect to return home perhaps once before retirement; it was customary to grant a three-year furlough in mid-career. The voyage from England to India via the Cape of Good Hope took six months at least, and you might have another three or four months of traveling to do before reaching your final destination. Replies to letters, therefore, could well take over a year and a half to receive.

    The technology of steam was the driving force behind the Industrial Revolution, and it was the introduction of steam propulsion that made possible regular transit of the Red Sea. ...

    Before 1830 passengers bound for the East had no alternative to circumnavigating Africa. In that year the East India Company pioneered the Red Sea route with a small steamer, built in India, called the Hugh Lindsay.


    Then the Suez Canal opened in 1869.

    By 1914 London-Bombay was down to 3 weeks one way.

    Yeah, I too was skeptical that young women would have traveled to India in numbers before the opening of the Suez Canal, risking death from disease on a long sea journey, simply to find a suitable husband. But it seems to have happened.

    I assume the same phenomenon obtained in Australia, where there was almost no intermarriage with the aboriginal population by the early male population of deportees. There is no sizable modern Australian mixed-breed population in-between Whites and Aborigines. They seem to be rarities (such as former tennis star Evonne Goolagong.)

    I assume there must have been young British women making the equally long, equally hard journey to Australia to find mates through the 1800s. I doubt that the entire male population of Australia had the wherewithal to travel back to England to get married. Anybody?

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    • Replies: @syonredux
    Commented on this elsewhere, but one of the thing that made the Anglo settler colonies (USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand) different from their Iberian counterparts was the presence of large numbers of European women.
  170. @Twinkie

    A Southern Sorority type white woman (e.g. Erin Andrews) marrying an Asian/Mestizo guy would certainly face a lot of social rejection even in 2016.
     
    I don't know about "a Southern sorority type white woman," whatever that means, but my wife is of the Anglo-German-Swedish stock from the Midwest. Her family is quite prominent in the area and is socially traditional and "old money." And of course I am ethnically East Asian.

    When I first met her family, I was quite apprehensive about how I would be received. To my relief, they welcomed me into the family and have adopted me as one of their boys (my wife only has brothers). My father-in-law even tried to bring me into his family business (they own a substantial portfolio of farmland, commercial property, buildings, etc.).

    Most pleasantly, my wife's grandparents wrote me a very moving and beautiful letter after they found out I proposed to her, in which they intimated that I was a fine young Christian gentleman and hoped all along that I would be "the one" for their granddaughter. When I was overseas frequently earlier in my life, I often received typewritten (!) letters of familiar comfort and patriotic exhortations from them.

    At her grandfather's funeral, I was a pallbearer; I wept and spoke about his World War II experiences, about which we often talked while he was alive, as well as his deep love for his hometown and our shared country.

    So in my case, no one was ostracized. Not I and not my wife. In fact, at our engagement party, "the high society" as such of her hometown showed up. No one seemed nonplussed about the "interracial" marriage. But given what I heard in her family and the wider social circle, I think the reaction would have been considerably different had I been black or non-white Hispanic.

    Later one of my wife's younger cousins met an East Asian man at church while attending Harvard Business School (where he was also a student) and married him. No rejection there either.

    My family aren’t high society types, but my marriage was basically viewed as appropriately assortative. We went to the same selective college. Both my in laws are professionals. My husband was very well regarded academically in school and now has a successful career.

    He wasn’t American and flights home were costly, so my family adopted him during all school breaks from the beginning and he has an independent close relationship with my father in particular. There may have been some component of parental relief there. I’m reasonably pretty, but I’m weird and have a spergy edge that is probably even less attractive in women than in men. I think half my relatives were just relieved I wasn’t going to end up a cat lady.

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    • Replies: @Twinkie

    my marriage was basically viewed as appropriately assortative.
     
    And that is precisely why I think white-Asian marriages today* incur very little to no social opprobrium - typically they are of college graduates (or higher), in other words, people of similar upper middle class social standing marrying each other. And judging by university (especially elite) demographics, there are enough Asians in that demographic segment to make such interracial relationships and marriages fairly normal.

    With blacks and non-white Hispanics, there aren't enough upper middle class types to make a dent in the statistics of interracial marriages at that segment of the socio-economic spectrum.

    *In the past, many white-Asian marriages were of American soldiers marrying Asian "war brides" or local bar girls in Asia, and these matches were generally very unstable and not longstanding (= high divorce rates).

    a spergy edge
     
    What does this mean?
    , @anonymous

    but I’m weird and have a spergy edge that is probably even less attractive in women than in men. I think half my relatives were just relieved I wasn’t going to end up a cat lady.
     
    I wonder how many of the non-Asian women who make the unconventional choice of marrying Asian men have some touch of the 'tism. In my case, I'm a semi-white aspie-ish weirdo who married a HFA Chinese guy. If I were more neurotypical, I assume I would have gone down a different life route. I worry that any offspring produced between us will grow up into super-autist incel future school shooters. The fact that awkward, tormented hapas seem disproportionately numerous does not fill me with confidence.
  171. If you want to see the big picture of the result of race-mixing, check out central Asia and Latin America. That’s the biggest “study” you’ll ever see.

    Biracial children overwhelmingly identify with their black side, perhaps due to appearance and treatment at school, or perhaps something deeper. Whatever the reason, there’s not much upside for the white mom and many of us view Obama’s mother as a cautionary tale.

    1. Mass media culture(heavily by white women Jews) is very pro-black. As is the legal regime.
    2. Offspring of white-black pairings tend to fall above blacks, but below whites, cognitively. So, they can choose to be in the upper strata of blackness, or the lower strata of whiteness.

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    • Replies: @Twinkie

    If you want to see the big picture of the result of race-mixing, check out central Asia and Latin America. That’s the biggest “study” you’ll ever see.
     
    Central Asia is often desolate and sparsely population frontier zone, located far away from the heavily settled cultural poles of Western Europe and East Asia. It's specious to compare the product of that frontier zone with, say, children of intermarried professional whites and Asians, for example.

    And I am sure you know well that the racial mix is highly polarized in much of Latin America.

    Not all "race-mixing" is the same. The result depends largely on what race and what segments of race are under discussion. A low IQ white mixing with a Mestizo peasant is not going to produce the same offspring as a high IQ white mixing with a similarly assorted East Asian. And of course the socio-cultural context matters too. Many, perhaps most, half-white/half-black children grow to identify as black in the United States while the vast majority of half-white/half-East Asian children identify as white.
  172. @Desiderius

    I, too, find this statement completely absurd.
     
    It's not completely absurd. Few white men demonstrate the level of dominance required to get a black woman's motor started*. There's a difference between arousal/attraction and recognizing a useful match. Most black women are nothing if not practical.

    * - my guess is that low-level Aspergers can come across as ZFG dominance in the right light - i.e. if she already has a reason to want to see it that way.

    the good-natured ones who are sincerely looking for a mate who will love them and be good to them
     
    There are also more black women than white who appreciate the traditional sex-roles/conservative values in matters of love and marriage. I do see this starting to change, but only with men who are sufficiently dominant (i.e. white women getting better).

    There are also more black women than white who appreciate the traditional sex-roles/conservative values in matters of love and marriage.

    I’m not seeing evidence of this.

    The contribution of African American women to couple time spent on housework and on childcare is also closer to an even 50% split than is observed within white households. The differences in this sector are more substantial when housework is defined more narrowly to include only routine tasks that every household must perform such as cooking, cleaning, laundry, and grocery shopping. . . . .

    A more recent paper by Kamo and Cohen (1998), however, presents evidence that African American men do contribute a significantly greater share of household housework time even after controlling for education, age, employment hours, income, cohabitation status, number of children, and gender attitudes.

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  173. @PiltdownMan
    Yeah, I too was skeptical that young women would have traveled to India in numbers before the opening of the Suez Canal, risking death from disease on a long sea journey, simply to find a suitable husband. But it seems to have happened.

    I assume the same phenomenon obtained in Australia, where there was almost no intermarriage with the aboriginal population by the early male population of deportees. There is no sizable modern Australian mixed-breed population in-between Whites and Aborigines. They seem to be rarities (such as former tennis star Evonne Goolagong.)

    I assume there must have been young British women making the equally long, equally hard journey to Australia to find mates through the 1800s. I doubt that the entire male population of Australia had the wherewithal to travel back to England to get married. Anybody?

    Commented on this elsewhere, but one of the thing that made the Anglo settler colonies (USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand) different from their Iberian counterparts was the presence of large numbers of European women.

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  174. @Marina
    My family aren't high society types, but my marriage was basically viewed as appropriately assortative. We went to the same selective college. Both my in laws are professionals. My husband was very well regarded academically in school and now has a successful career.

    He wasn't American and flights home were costly, so my family adopted him during all school breaks from the beginning and he has an independent close relationship with my father in particular. There may have been some component of parental relief there. I'm reasonably pretty, but I'm weird and have a spergy edge that is probably even less attractive in women than in men. I think half my relatives were just relieved I wasn't going to end up a cat lady.

    my marriage was basically viewed as appropriately assortative.

    And that is precisely why I think white-Asian marriages today* incur very little to no social opprobrium – typically they are of college graduates (or higher), in other words, people of similar upper middle class social standing marrying each other. And judging by university (especially elite) demographics, there are enough Asians in that demographic segment to make such interracial relationships and marriages fairly normal.

    With blacks and non-white Hispanics, there aren’t enough upper middle class types to make a dent in the statistics of interracial marriages at that segment of the socio-economic spectrum.

    *In the past, many white-Asian marriages were of American soldiers marrying Asian “war brides” or local bar girls in Asia, and these matches were generally very unstable and not longstanding (= high divorce rates).

    a spergy edge

    What does this mean?

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  175. @Svigor
    If you want to see the big picture of the result of race-mixing, check out central Asia and Latin America. That's the biggest "study" you'll ever see.

    Biracial children overwhelmingly identify with their black side, perhaps due to appearance and treatment at school, or perhaps something deeper. Whatever the reason, there’s not much upside for the white mom and many of us view Obama’s mother as a cautionary tale.
     
    1. Mass media culture(heavily by white women Jews) is very pro-black. As is the legal regime.
    2. Offspring of white-black pairings tend to fall above blacks, but below whites, cognitively. So, they can choose to be in the upper strata of blackness, or the lower strata of whiteness.

    If you want to see the big picture of the result of race-mixing, check out central Asia and Latin America. That’s the biggest “study” you’ll ever see.

    Central Asia is often desolate and sparsely population frontier zone, located far away from the heavily settled cultural poles of Western Europe and East Asia. It’s specious to compare the product of that frontier zone with, say, children of intermarried professional whites and Asians, for example.

    And I am sure you know well that the racial mix is highly polarized in much of Latin America.

    Not all “race-mixing” is the same. The result depends largely on what race and what segments of race are under discussion. A low IQ white mixing with a Mestizo peasant is not going to produce the same offspring as a high IQ white mixing with a similarly assorted East Asian. And of course the socio-cultural context matters too. Many, perhaps most, half-white/half-black children grow to identify as black in the United States while the vast majority of half-white/half-East Asian children identify as white.

    Read More
  176. anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @Marina
    My family aren't high society types, but my marriage was basically viewed as appropriately assortative. We went to the same selective college. Both my in laws are professionals. My husband was very well regarded academically in school and now has a successful career.

    He wasn't American and flights home were costly, so my family adopted him during all school breaks from the beginning and he has an independent close relationship with my father in particular. There may have been some component of parental relief there. I'm reasonably pretty, but I'm weird and have a spergy edge that is probably even less attractive in women than in men. I think half my relatives were just relieved I wasn't going to end up a cat lady.

    but I’m weird and have a spergy edge that is probably even less attractive in women than in men. I think half my relatives were just relieved I wasn’t going to end up a cat lady.

    I wonder how many of the non-Asian women who make the unconventional choice of marrying Asian men have some touch of the ’tism. In my case, I’m a semi-white aspie-ish weirdo who married a HFA Chinese guy. If I were more neurotypical, I assume I would have gone down a different life route. I worry that any offspring produced between us will grow up into super-autist incel future school shooters. The fact that awkward, tormented hapas seem disproportionately numerous does not fill me with confidence.

    Read More
  177. @Whiskey
    Follow up, even in the late 1600's White men were unable and/or unwilling to police the sexual behavior of the very scarce White women in the Carolinas. Hence, Melungeons.

    Of course, now Kim Kardashian is the heroine of the age for nearly every woman. She was recently robbed in Paris of $10 million in jewels, and my first question was, where the hell did she get the money for $10 million in jewels?

    The Kardashian model, Trash Princess being famous and adored by the media by a carefully leaked sex tape with some Black rapper and followed on by various tawdry relationships in the media with Black rappers, is a winner. The prize being FAME which women want like nothing else.

    Heck I look forward to Obama pardoning OJ so he can "talk" with Kanye West and realize his, and America's, dream wedding to Kim. Who among us does not look forward to the Royal Nuptials of America's royal family, Kim and OJ?

    By contrast, only men with ZERO options save a few oddballs like David Bowie and DeNiro settle for Black women. Lucas? A man with negative charisma with women, see Zuckerberg, Krugman, etc. Not even their fame and money compensate.

    Follow up, even in the late 1600′s White men were unable and/or unwilling to police the sexual behavior of the very scarce White women in the Carolinas. Hence, Melungeons.

    I think you are wrong. If that were true the US would be more like Brazil and other Latin nations. But the US white population is overwhelmingly white. You could count melungeons on one hand relatively speaking.

    This means whites did a good job of policing as you put it. Hence the one-drop rule, etc.

    It was only with the rise of later immigrant groups who became more influential in our society that these measures were challenged and overturned. So I guess whites can be blamed for allowing this to happen. But the US is, or was, distinct from the Latin new world in regards to this issue.

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