The Unz Review - Mobile
A Collection of Interesting, Important, and Controversial Perspectives Largely Excluded from the American Mainstream Media
 TeasersiSteve Blog
What's the Difference Between "Race" and "Ethnicity?"
🔊 Listen RSS
Email This Page to Someone

 Remember My Information



=>

Bookmark Toggle AllToCAdd to LibraryRemove from Library • BShow CommentNext New CommentNext New Reply
Search Text Case Sensitive  Exact Words  Include Comments
List of Bookmarks

The word “ethnicity” has two somewhat overlapping uses in the U.S. It’s often used in the sense of subrace: a group smaller than a continental scale race. Italians and Jews, for example, are said to be “white ethnics.”

The Census Bureau, however, long declared that race and ethnicity were two qualitatively different things. Thus, those of Hispanic ethnicity could be of any race. (For unexplained reasons, everybody else had only one ethnicity: NonHispanic.) Race was biological, ethnicity cultural.

My definitions have been:

- A racial group is a partly inbred extended biological family.

- An ethnic groups is defined by shared traits that are often passed down within biological families — e.g., language, surname, religion, cuisine, accent, self-identification, historical or mythological heroes, musical styles, etc. — but that don’t have to be. (Thus, you can be adopted into an ethnic group, but not into a racial group.)

What ties together the two meanings of ethnicity (subrace vs. cultural grouping) is the idea that continental-scale races are obviously visually recognizable, while small-scale racial differences may be less visible, but more obviously manifest themselves in cultural behavior. Joey Francis Tribbiani Jr. may not look immediately all that different from a British-American, but if you know his name, that he’s Catholic, that his grandmother speaks Italian, etc., you can probably guess he’s of Italian ancestry.

On the other hand, visual phenotype and cultural behavior traits are both clues to ancestry and genetics, which are highly correlated and not exactly the same. (You have lots of ancestors from whom you didn’t inherit any specific genes, due to shuffling of the DNA deck being rather coarse, so going more than a certain number of generations back you start having ancestors who didn’t contribute anything to your particular DNA.)

 
Hide 86 CommentsLeave a Comment
Commenters to Ignore...to FollowEndorsed Only
Trim Comments?
  1. The Census Bureau, however, long declared that race and ethnicity were two qualitatively different things. Thus, those of Hispanic ethnicity could be of any race.

    Shen’s Law: In America, blacks, Hispanics and whites love obsessing over race and over each other!

    Example: Virtually everything Ta Nehisi Coates writes about relates to race and in particular to how bad white people are. His white counterpart, John Derbyshire, has been warning us endlessly about the perils of black people.

    Read More
    • Replies: @YetAnotherAnon
    I disagree with your portrayal of Derb. He writes on many subjects. Some subjects get him more attention than others ("he can't say that!"), that's all.
    , @anonymous
    And you obsess over their obsessions and over the superiority of your fellow Chinese over all others in STEM. What's your point? That these issues shouldn't be discussed? Here at iSteve!? For whatever reasons issues concerning race and ethnicity are important.

    Also, where's the uh uh uh ad nauseum? It's not a Shen post without the uhs!
    , @bomag
    Et tu, Shen?
    , @lavoisier

    "Shen’s Law: In America, blacks, Hispanics and whites love obsessing over race and over each other!"
     
    Lavoisier's Law: In America, because of the racial obsessions and grievances of minorities in America, derived in no small measure from the in your face egalitarian phantasm of the Jews, white people have been forced to focus on race to preserve their culture and their civilization.
    , @Hunsdon
    However, contra Coates, Derb also writes about mathematics, music and China. The only way Derbyshire is the white counterpart to Coates is the "The Talk: Non-black Version."
    , @Chrisnonymous
    You still haven't taken up my "quantitative challenge" to prove your "high M" heritage by analyzing Derbyshire's output to show that it's actually significantly about criticizing blacks, which I contend you are mistaken about.

    Repeating the same stupid things over and over is annoying. You ought to expand your repertoire with some evidence or an original idea.
    , @peterike

    Shen’s Law: In America, blacks, Hispanics and whites love obsessing over race and over each other!

     

    Indeed, Chinese and Indians don't have to obsess about race, because they both "know" their races are the best and everyone else is a cow to be exploited. Just don't get a Chinaman and a Wog together in the same room and ask them to discuss race. Won't be pretty.

    Oh, and Yan, all your cute girls are belong to us. Does it bother you to see how many cute Chinese girls are dating and marrying white men? You can't walk ten feet in Brooklyn without seeing a Chinese girl on a white hipsters arm, or pushing a stroller with her half-white baby in it.

    Now me, I'm agin' it as a general rule of life. But it sure seems them Chinese girls have taken the measure of the Chinese soy men and found them seriously wanting. All the little Shens in Brooklyn are now called Atticus and Lennon.
    , @Rifleman

    What's the Difference Between "Race" and "Ethnicity?"
     
    Race = tree

    Ethnicity = branches

    Race = large scale biological cluster within a species.

    Ethnicity = a smaller, regional cluster within that race.
    , @Joe Franklin

    Shen’s Law: In America, blacks, Hispanics and whites love obsessing over race and over each other!

     

    In America, the federal government obsesses about race and ethnicity and gender and disability, and crony capitalism, and creates unconstitutional laws that favor specific kinds of people that are labeled federal protected class groups.

    In America, Democrat and Neocon politicians rely heavily on this anti-constitution federal entitlement scheme to buy the votes of federal protected class groups :
    ...


    Feminist are entitled by law because of presumed Male oppression
    Jewish are entitled by law because of presumed Gentile oppression
    Sodomites are entitled by law because of presumed Straight oppression
    Elective Abortionist are entitled by law because of presumed Innocent Life Advocate oppression
    Muslims are entitled by law because of presumed Christian oppression
    Disabled are entitled by law because of presumed Healthy oppression
    Afro-blacks are entitled by law because of presumed White oppression
    Latinos are entitled by law because of presumed Gringo oppression
    Hispanics are entitled by law because of presumed Gringo oppression
    Military Veterans are entitled by law because of presumed Militia oppression
    Native Americans are entitled by law because of presumed Paleface oppression
    Asians are entitled by law because of presumed Occidental oppression
    International Socialist are entitled by law because of presumed Local Government oppression
    Social Justice Crony Capitalist are entitled by law because of presumed Honest Businessmen oppression
    Zionist-Neocons are entitled by law because of presumed Anti-Fascist oppression
    , @Issac
    Issac's Law: Any Shen post not concerning asian supremacy will demur about the pointlessness of race obsession.
    , @AnotherDad

    Issac's Law: Any Shen post not concerning asian supremacy will demur about the pointlessness of race obsession.
     
    Issac's law *owns* Shen's "law".

    BTW Shen, your continued pathetic mischaracterization of Derb's work--whose supposed obsession with black people pretty much begins and ends him occasionally pointing out how boring black "intellectuals" are because of their blackety-blackety-black focus--strongly suggests your own racial obsession with Derb courting, winning, repeatedly banging and impregnating a Chinese gal. If not that, you should come up semi-plausible reason for your Derb mischaracterization-obsession.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  2. Race, ethnicity … You forgot to mention appearance.

    Read More
    • LOL: bomag
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  3. @Yan Shen

    The Census Bureau, however, long declared that race and ethnicity were two qualitatively different things. Thus, those of Hispanic ethnicity could be of any race.
     
    Shen's Law: In America, blacks, Hispanics and whites love obsessing over race and over each other!

    Example: Virtually everything Ta Nehisi Coates writes about relates to race and in particular to how bad white people are. His white counterpart, John Derbyshire, has been warning us endlessly about the perils of black people.

    I disagree with your portrayal of Derb. He writes on many subjects. Some subjects get him more attention than others (“he can’t say that!”), that’s all.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  4. Simple. Blacks, Asians, and whites are races, Hispanics are an ethnicity since they are more of a varied grab-bag admixture of whites, blacks, and indigenous. Alternative definition: Hispanics don’t make as clean a a bell curve, too wide, with humps.

    Off topic, from the Atlantic: “The Community-College ‘Segregation Machine’: California’s remedial-class system holds back a disproportionate number of students of color.”

    https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2017/12/the-community-college-segregation-machine/548357/

    Summary: There is a major civil rights problem in California because two-year colleges are testing incoming student with an objective standardized math skills test. It turns out that whites and Asians are passing it, black and Hispanics are failing it, resulting in the latter two groups being tracked into remedial math classes.

    And get this: It’s completely racist, because the black and Hispanic students have already taken the math classes and passed them with flying colors in their high schools. The reason they flunk the qualification test and eventually drop out of the remedial classes is that the stuff is just too boring. They already know it, having passed math in high school. White and Asian students have personalities that allow them to cope with boredom more easily.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  5. Sir Steve,

    That is a very good start.

    In the USA, race has been exceedingly important in these matters, along with the association of African origins with chattel slavery.

    A complicating fact is definitely that of “scale.”

    Consider a big country such as Nigeria (which I have some passing familiarity with).

    Since virtually everyone is phenotypically black, race has virtually no salience, and “ethnicity” is all important. Yet ethnicity will tend to mean belonging to an ethnolinguistic group, and a test of that membership will tend to be ability to speak a language and the ability to trace one’s origin to a paternal town of origin.

    Yet the “ethnic groups” are moderately new. The identity of “Yoruba” probably doesn’t pre-date the Yoruba Bible (translated by Crowther about 150 years ago). The identity of “Igbo” is even newer. How could the Igbo fight a secessionist war for survival in the 1960s if the identity had almost no meaning as recently as 1900?

    = – = – = –

    I believe it was Rogers Brubaker who talked about “groupism.” Groups are defined by other groups. In much of Africa you will see “ethnolinguistic” identity. Caste becomes salient in India. And the group is defined by interaction in a “container”–a state or an electoral space.

    In any modern society with popular elections, we will see groups that are assembled to contest elections.

    In addition, we can see “pissing wars” in which civil service exams with bilingual competence are a tool of the underdog. In Bohemia, Germans often couldn’t speak Czech, but Czechs were bilingual. In South Africa, Anglos frequently couldn’t speak Afrikaans, but the Boers could speak both if they had too. Civil service exams become a tool of exclusion, conveniently useful for the subordinate group.

    = – = – = – =

    Bakalian wrote a book with a title or subtitle: “From being to feeling Armenian” about Armenian identity in the USA. Many nominal ethnics are getting there in the USA. There are many people who “feel Irish” or Italian who on one level are declaring an identity, and performing it, but anybody could do what they are doing.

    Frank Salmon talked about “ringers” in Nigerian politics–people who pretended to an bogus ethnic identity to contest elections.

    The salient variables that characterize ethnicity are just going to vary from place to place and from time to time.

    I sometimes think that Walker Connor’s claim is correct: some identities are ineffable. Odd word, but it’s hard to come up with a substitute for it. He did a lot of scholarship on ethnonationalism, and he asserted that the feeling of being or belonging or membership in a group can be based on something that is ineffable. When we try to reduce it to language or sect or style of dress or physiognomy we have not actually gotten to the root of the matter.

    This is especially the case because these things are dynamic–they change over time. And they are context dependent–which is where Brubaker’s notion of “groupism” comes in.

    Identity Politics (in a relatively rootless USA) will introduce further complications.

    Census Definitions will introduce still others.

    Read More
    • Replies: @charles w abbott
    Correction: Frank Salamone, "Nigeria: A nation of ringers," or something like that. Professional politicians sometimes pretend to an ethnicity that is not really "legitimately" theirs.

    Curse you autocorrect!
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  6. This reads like the introduction to a Platonic dialogue. I can hear Socrates saying “What do you mean by race and ethnicity?’

    I consume volumes of Internet material daily. I find most very interesting and I learn many facts and opinions. Most are ephemeral; gone by the end of coffee. But, no doubt yours will be part of my thinking for a long time. These two concepts (race and ethnicity) virtually (literally?) define our times.

    Thank You.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  7. anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Yan Shen

    The Census Bureau, however, long declared that race and ethnicity were two qualitatively different things. Thus, those of Hispanic ethnicity could be of any race.
     
    Shen's Law: In America, blacks, Hispanics and whites love obsessing over race and over each other!

    Example: Virtually everything Ta Nehisi Coates writes about relates to race and in particular to how bad white people are. His white counterpart, John Derbyshire, has been warning us endlessly about the perils of black people.

    And you obsess over their obsessions and over the superiority of your fellow Chinese over all others in STEM. What’s your point? That these issues shouldn’t be discussed? Here at iSteve!? For whatever reasons issues concerning race and ethnicity are important.

    Also, where’s the uh uh uh ad nauseum? It’s not a Shen post without the uhs!

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  8. Appearance can be deceiving. Thanks to mi madre’s genetic influence (Mexican and Indian) and mi papa’s generic East Texas white trash genes I have been mistaken for Italian, Palestinian, European Jew, and India Indian to name a few.

    I have lots of fun with this. Once in a Dunkin Donuts I noticed the guy behind the counter looking at me intently. He was obviously from India or Pakistan. When I got to the counter, he asked me, “Where are you from?” I replied, “Downers Grove” which is the village in which I reside. He then asked, “No. Where are you from?” I knew what he was getting at so I replied, “Chicago.” The poor guy rolled his eyes. “No, where did your family come from?” I replied, “Texas.” He gave up and asked for my order.

    Read More
    • LOL: AndrewR
    • Replies: @AndrewR
    Mexican and Indian? That's an unusual mix, especially for someone your mother's age (based on simple statistics, presumably she's over 50 years old and probably a lot older). Unless you meant "American Indian," in which case you should have said "American Indian", "Native American" or the specific tribe in order to avoid confusing the reader.

    Anyway, your story would confuse an SJW, since according to them only wypipo say things like "where are you from" in order to mean "where are your ancestors from"
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  9. @Yan Shen

    The Census Bureau, however, long declared that race and ethnicity were two qualitatively different things. Thus, those of Hispanic ethnicity could be of any race.
     
    Shen's Law: In America, blacks, Hispanics and whites love obsessing over race and over each other!

    Example: Virtually everything Ta Nehisi Coates writes about relates to race and in particular to how bad white people are. His white counterpart, John Derbyshire, has been warning us endlessly about the perils of black people.

    Et tu, Shen?

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  10. During the 2010 there was urging from some conservatives to identify their race as American. They thought they were pushing back against the balkanization of American society, but the effect of such a choice is to artificially decrease the reported white percentage of the population, since a lot of people scoring the results, including the Census Bureau themselves, compare just the responders who check “white” to the total of all other responses; black, Asian, Native American, American… And it is disproportionately white people who respond American.

    Adding American as an ethnicity rather than a race might help produce more accurate results on race. And allow white Americans, black Americans, Native Americans, and Hispanics who consider themselves first of all to be Americans to all describe themselves with a more accurate label than non-Hispanic.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  11. @Yan Shen

    The Census Bureau, however, long declared that race and ethnicity were two qualitatively different things. Thus, those of Hispanic ethnicity could be of any race.
     
    Shen's Law: In America, blacks, Hispanics and whites love obsessing over race and over each other!

    Example: Virtually everything Ta Nehisi Coates writes about relates to race and in particular to how bad white people are. His white counterpart, John Derbyshire, has been warning us endlessly about the perils of black people.

    “Shen’s Law: In America, blacks, Hispanics and whites love obsessing over race and over each other!”

    Lavoisier’s Law: In America, because of the racial obsessions and grievances of minorities in America, derived in no small measure from the in your face egalitarian phantasm of the Jews, white people have been forced to focus on race to preserve their culture and their civilization.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  12. @Yan Shen

    The Census Bureau, however, long declared that race and ethnicity were two qualitatively different things. Thus, those of Hispanic ethnicity could be of any race.
     
    Shen's Law: In America, blacks, Hispanics and whites love obsessing over race and over each other!

    Example: Virtually everything Ta Nehisi Coates writes about relates to race and in particular to how bad white people are. His white counterpart, John Derbyshire, has been warning us endlessly about the perils of black people.

    However, contra Coates, Derb also writes about mathematics, music and China. The only way Derbyshire is the white counterpart to Coates is the “The Talk: Non-black Version.”

    Read More
    • Replies: @Chrisnonymous
    In his mistaken equivalency, Yan Shen is simply repeating the same stupid, 2-dimensional, ill-informed commentary on Derbyshire that you can read in any MSM source that has commented on him.

    The shallowness of Yan Shen's thought is on display at his blog, which he lacks the self-insight to avoid linking to from iSteve. Perhaps if he spent more time thinking and less time playing computer games, he'd be able to produce something worth reading.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  13. But ethnicity isn’t purely cultural:

    1.) Myth of a common ancestor;
    2.) Shared system of language, myths, customs;
    3.) Taboos against exogamy.

    [I think that's something like Weber or someone.]

    People can be adopted into an ethnic group, but they can also be adopted into a family (which would be the simplest “race” per the Steve Sailer definition). Further, adoptees would presumably marry into the group and the children would ultimately share the common ancestor.

    Now you can say the above is not true of the French or the WASP’s today, but here is the thing, the French and the WASP’s are dying ethnic groups. If you look at Judaism, Orthodox Jews maintain 1.)-3.) and Reform Jews (for the most part) don’t. Likewise, Orthodox Jews are thriving and Reform Jews are dying.

    I suspect that the traits associated with pure “ethnos” are necessary to insure the survival of a cultural system of meaning and order (e.g. “identity”) across generations. . . but it is simultaneously insuring the flourishing of a particular gene pool.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  14. One is transmitted genetically, the other is transmitted environmentally.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  15. @Yan Shen

    The Census Bureau, however, long declared that race and ethnicity were two qualitatively different things. Thus, those of Hispanic ethnicity could be of any race.
     
    Shen's Law: In America, blacks, Hispanics and whites love obsessing over race and over each other!

    Example: Virtually everything Ta Nehisi Coates writes about relates to race and in particular to how bad white people are. His white counterpart, John Derbyshire, has been warning us endlessly about the perils of black people.

    You still haven’t taken up my “quantitative challenge” to prove your “high M” heritage by analyzing Derbyshire’s output to show that it’s actually significantly about criticizing blacks, which I contend you are mistaken about.

    Repeating the same stupid things over and over is annoying. You ought to expand your repertoire with some evidence or an original idea.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  16. @Hunsdon
    However, contra Coates, Derb also writes about mathematics, music and China. The only way Derbyshire is the white counterpart to Coates is the "The Talk: Non-black Version."

    In his mistaken equivalency, Yan Shen is simply repeating the same stupid, 2-dimensional, ill-informed commentary on Derbyshire that you can read in any MSM source that has commented on him.

    The shallowness of Yan Shen’s thought is on display at his blog, which he lacks the self-insight to avoid linking to from iSteve. Perhaps if he spent more time thinking and less time playing computer games, he’d be able to produce something worth reading.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  17. “Hispanic” an a (meta?) ethnicity is obviously quite stupid rent seeking behavior. It makes about as much sense an “Anglophone” “ethnicity” encompassing Anglo Saxons, Jamaicans, Kenyans, Punjabis et al.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Autochthon
    This guy; this guy right here: he gets it. At least there are two of us, friend.
    , @AndrewR
    Yeah, Hispanic really is a stupid label.
    It's not even a linguistic marker, since many people whose ancestors spoke Spanish cannot speak Spanish. If someone wanted to argue that race is socially constructed, they would likely have no stronger evidence than the "Hispanic" "race." There are countless millions of people who literally think that Cameron Diaz and Julian Castro are of the same race. Just yesterday I saw a random idiot on zuccbook say "my kids look white but their mom is part Mexican"
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  18. The practical difference, as far as I can tell, is that people use ethnicity when they are too white and too liberal to talk about race. The classic example is people (gentiles) who are too uncomfortable to use the word “Jew” and instead use “Jew…ish“. I think a lot of white people are more comfortable with “African-American” as opposed to the more blunt “black”, probably because it admits of degrees.

    The extreme liberal lefty academic doctors I know (and I know a bunch) will never use the word “race” and will recoil in horror if you even suggest that race is even a reality. The very same people are the first to categorize patients by race, because of the utility in doing so (blacks more susceptible to this, Ashkenazi Jews are more susceptible to that, etc.).

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  19. I recall an annoying conversation I had with an acquaintance who had adopted an infant from Guatemala who was clearly of entirely or almost entirely indigenous ancestry. The person insisted that their son was “Hispanic” and “Looked Hispanic.” I kept trying to make them understand that the young man was neither Hispanic in a cultural sense, having been raised from infancy by an Anglo-American family, nor in the sense of genetic ancestry, containing probably very few Spanish ancestors. If anything he should be considered to be Native American.

    But it was like talking to a wall. This person was over the moon that they were a multiracial white family with a Hispanic son and they were so much more enlightened than the bad people who were prejudging their minority ‘Hispanic’ teenager.

    It illustrated why the category of ‘Hispanic’ has lost almost all meaningful content. If it isn’t cultural, and it isn’t ethnic, and it isn’t racial, then what is it?

    It also drove home how much Native Americans have been demoted in the progressive zeitgeist. My impression is that in the 60s and 70s Native Americans were considered pretty awesome, but by a few years ago it was much more awesome to be Hispanic.

    Read More
    • Replies: @International Jew

    I kept trying to make them understand that the young man was neither Hispanic in a cultural sense...nor in the sense of genetic ancestry
     
    We need to look into how Australian Aboriginal immigrants to Guatemala are viewed there; are they considered "Anglo-Saxon"?
    , @Corn
    “It also drove home how much Native Americans have been demoted in the progressive zeitgeist. My impression is that in the 60s and 70s Native Americans were considered pretty awesome, but by a few years ago it was much more awesome to be Hispanic.”

    I don’t live in Indian Country but I think you’re right in that Indians have been demoted in the liberal mind. I’d guess there are a few reasons for this.

    It’s my understanding Indian reservations are rife with poverty and alcoholism. They may just be too depressing to think about.

    I’ve also read that the intermarriage rate for Indians with whites/non-Indians is fairly high. (I think it was 50% at one point). Maybe there’s not enough racial solidarity to form an Indians Live Matter or something for liberals to rally around.

    Lastly the libs can only use the Indians as a prop for so long. You can preach about how the white man killed the red man or took his land, but the Open Borders Left isn’t exactly trying to stop the invasion.
    , @rogue-one
    >It also drove home how much Native Americans have been demoted in the progressive zeitgeist. My impression is that in the 60s and 70s Native Americans were considered pretty awesome, but by a few years ago it was much more awesome to be Hispanic.

    Consider blacks as the shock troops of liberals. Native Americans aren't willing to riot and burn down cities because Trump got elected. But blacks & hispanics will.

    You gotta support the guys who fight, not the ones who sit on the sides.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  20. (You have lots of ancestors from whom you didn’t inherit any specific genes, due to shuffling of the DNA deck being rather coarse, so going more than a certain number of generations back you start having ancestors who didn’t contribute anything to your particular DNA.)

    Those little genetic bits of great-grandpa that you don’t have might be preserved in a distant cousin. Thus the loyalty to family, clan, ethnicity, and race. Dawkin’s selfish gene is racist.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  21. @Yan Shen

    The Census Bureau, however, long declared that race and ethnicity were two qualitatively different things. Thus, those of Hispanic ethnicity could be of any race.
     
    Shen's Law: In America, blacks, Hispanics and whites love obsessing over race and over each other!

    Example: Virtually everything Ta Nehisi Coates writes about relates to race and in particular to how bad white people are. His white counterpart, John Derbyshire, has been warning us endlessly about the perils of black people.

    Shen’s Law: In America, blacks, Hispanics and whites love obsessing over race and over each other!

    Indeed, Chinese and Indians don’t have to obsess about race, because they both “know” their races are the best and everyone else is a cow to be exploited. Just don’t get a Chinaman and a Wog together in the same room and ask them to discuss race. Won’t be pretty.

    Oh, and Yan, all your cute girls are belong to us. Does it bother you to see how many cute Chinese girls are dating and marrying white men? You can’t walk ten feet in Brooklyn without seeing a Chinese girl on a white hipsters arm, or pushing a stroller with her half-white baby in it.

    Now me, I’m agin’ it as a general rule of life. But it sure seems them Chinese girls have taken the measure of the Chinese soy men and found them seriously wanting. All the little Shens in Brooklyn are now called Atticus and Lennon.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  22. As I see it, taking the view that the State is an outgrowth of a controlling ethnic group, the problem with the “nation of immigrants” pablum is the same as having a “family” of adoptees.

    A “family” can adopt people, and a “nation” can accept immigrants. However, a “family” can only adopt so many people, before it turns into a de facto orphanage. Likewise, a “nation” can only absorb so many immigrants until it turns into something in the best of circumstances resembling an airport lounge in an internaltion airport (with airport security)-a place where no one wants to actually live.

    Read More
    • Agree: syonredux
    • Replies: @Elsewhere

    A “family” can adopt people, and a “nation” can accept immigrants. However, a “family” can only adopt so many people, before it turns into a de facto orphanage.
     
    Pithy. This is a pro comment.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  23. An ethnic group is defined by shared traits that are often passed down within biological families — e.g., language, surname, religion, cuisine, accent, self-identification, historical or mythological heroes, musical styles, etc. — but that don’t have to be.

    Interesting. Are white Americans and white Canadians different ethnicities, I wonder? Southerners and midwesterners?

    Read More
    • Replies: @AndrewR
    I'd say so, absolutely, especially since the cultural differences between groups largely correlate with ancestry. My Rust Belt city has a lot of ethnically Scots-Irish people who came up here three generations or so ago from Missouri and Arkansas in order to work in the factories. They've kept all the social pathologies for which their people are known.

    Read the book Albion's Seed if you haven't. Very informative as to how different groups have retained so much of their cultures even after centuries in the US.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  24. I think the reasoning is that since there is such much intermixing one could look at ‘Hispanics’ as a broad category because they are becoming a cohesive population but not nearly enough time as passed for it to have taken place.

    The intricacies of foreigners are often less precise than that within the country. Immigrants often possess this when they lack any concern for the displacement of the host population since everyone is a foreigner to them, non-coethnic immigrants and natives together so they don’t understand. You’ll hear this from immigrants all the time ‘But Berlin/London/Paris’ is an immigrant city! (Forgetting that within their lifetime it singularly wasn’t) And also ignoring how having the capital city have no ties with the greater country might be a problem and represent an effective pale of settlement. (An example is the oft Sailer mentioned hate towards the countryside that intensified greatly after the great waves of immigration matured in the big cities in the US)

    Read More
    • Replies: @Samuel Skinner
    Yes. Obligatory reference to Albion Seed- the white population of America from Britain was not evenly distributed and formed specific cultures that persist to the present.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  25. Race is usually used to distinguish populations which have been separated, essentially, forever. So British writers may have previously referred to “the German race” but that no longer feels right.

    Ethnicity is used to distinguish between groups which don’t intermarry much and haven’t for some time. English Protestants and Catholics obviously weren’t separate races but formed distinct communities until recently, and would have developed some cultural differences. An English nobleman may not marry a peasant either but they’d exist on a continuum, without a sharp impermeable boundary.

    Americans descended from Spanish immigrants to the US are of the same race as Mexicans with Spanish ancestry but it should be pretty obvious why we don’t think of one of them as Hispanic, right?

    The purpose is to identify *stable* distinctive communities for policy reasons or whatever other purposes. In the US, English vs Irish ancestry does not lead to any kind of stable separation so it’d be a pretty useless marker for identifying ethnicities. It may well be that Hispanic and Asian ancestry become fairly useless markers in a couple of generations.

    Read More
    • Replies: @dearieme
    'So British writers may have previously referred to “the German race” but that no longer feels right': it seems fine to me. I feel no need to hew to the old American instinct that only two races matter, the white and the black.

    Do you object to a German writer who referred to the Bavarian race? If so, why? It's just a reflection of some of the meanings that 'race' has carried in western languages. Attempts to claim that race "really" means one thing or another are usually marked by a lack of enquiry into the way the word has been used.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  26. Are you sure this is sophisticated at all? Pretty sure you just say “ethnicity” when you mean “race” but you’re too clever to walk into that trap.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  27. @Yan Shen

    The Census Bureau, however, long declared that race and ethnicity were two qualitatively different things. Thus, those of Hispanic ethnicity could be of any race.
     
    Shen's Law: In America, blacks, Hispanics and whites love obsessing over race and over each other!

    Example: Virtually everything Ta Nehisi Coates writes about relates to race and in particular to how bad white people are. His white counterpart, John Derbyshire, has been warning us endlessly about the perils of black people.

    What’s the Difference Between “Race” and “Ethnicity?”

    Race = tree

    Ethnicity = branches

    Race = large scale biological cluster within a species.

    Ethnicity = a smaller, regional cluster within that race.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  28. Combine this:

    ethnic groups is defined by shared traits that are often passed down within biological families — e.g., language, surname, religion, cuisine, accent, self-identification, historical or mythological heroes, musical styles, etc. — but that don’t have to be. (Thus, you can be adopted into an ethnic group, but not into a racial group.)

    With this:

    The Census Bureau, however, long declared that race and ethnicity were two qualitatively different things. Thus, those of Hispanic ethnicity could be of any race. (For unexplained reasons, everybody else had only one ethnicity: NonHispanic.) Race was biological, ethnicity cultural.

    And you get this:Hispanics are the one group that cannot, in the cultural sense, become Americans .

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  29. I get the distinction, but I have a hard time separating ethnicity from ancestry. Where I was raised in the industrial Northeast, surrounded by whites whose grandparents or parents were born in Europe and blacks, ethnicity always meant what European group or groups your ancestors belonged to. People were Italian, Irish, Polish, Ukrainian, Slovak, Black, and “Spanish.” I guess it gets messy, but my difficulty is in naming people to an ethnic group outside of Hispanic. I’ve learned to live with it, even though it is so imprecise because it means only that the person self-identifies as being part of a group of people from Latin or South America who speak a form of Spanish, because it has been crammed down my throat. But how can I accept that Idris Elba is English? My mind won’t let me, even though he was born and raised in England. Is there a better way to do this?

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  30. I think its best to keep ethnicity clearly defined as a synonym for race particularly at a level down from the mega races. First because that is what it means, But also because the reason we are now a bit hazy on the meaning is precisely because the left has had a campaign for 100 years to blur the awareness that nationalities and cultures etc have genetic aspects.Its to the point when they can get away with it they will insist even the mega races are a social construct,The proof that they are not such an absurd assertion is that not even nationalities or regional genetic differences are a construct. Not only are the welsh and cornish genetically identifiably different races or if you prefer ethnicities, we can tell within a few hundred miles of where a person is from genetically assuming they are not a transplant. Its even deeper, while its true modernity has done a lot of mixing within white nations, and though still genetically identifiable even in a mutt nation like the USA we can write albions seed, its still true that to some extent those transplants within white nations can adopt cultural or national habits its limited and more likely they are helping to erase the trad cultures markers. In other words its not nature vs nurture race v culture, culture is neither fungible entirely nor transferable really culture is an emanation within not without the genetic feedback loop. So while we may concede someone can learn to speak another language that doesnt make them that ethnicity or race language or cuisine or cultural but the practice of the cultural canon for thousands of years has genetically shaped those people

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  31. My definitions have been:

    - A racial group is a partly inbred extended biological family.

    - An ethnic groups is defined by shared traits that are often passed down within biological families — e.g., language, surname, religion, cuisine, accent, self-identification, historical or mythological heroes, musical styles, etc. — but that don’t have to be. (Thus, you can be adopted into an ethnic group, but not into a racial group.)

    I like that, it’s very thoughtful and useful. However, it’s not a perfect defnition, so let me poke some holes in it:

    Joey Francis Tribbiani Jr. may not look immediately all that different from a British-American

    True if he’s a Northern Italian… but almost certainly not if he’s a Sicilian! You can take one look at a red-headed, blue-eyed Irish colleen and know immediately she’s not from Sicily. To the contrary, you probably couldn’t tell her apart from a ginger from Britain.

    So there are some genetic, not merely cultural, differences across ethnic groups as well. Take the case of the Arabs, for instance… are they a race or an ethnicity? Most surely appear to be nonwhite, but not exactly black, either. Same for Subcontinentals.

    To further complicate matters, personality traits may be heritable in addition to physical markers. British and Irish may have physical similarities, but probably quite different temperaments.

    So it’s not as cut-and-dried we might wish it were…

    Read More
    • Replies: @(((Owen)))

    but almost certainly not if he’s a Sicilian! You can take one look at a red-headed, blue-eyed Irish colleen and know immediately she’s not from Sicily.
     
    Does anyone at all consider Sicilians to be white? Doubtful.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3yon2GyoiM&t=3s
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  32. @Yan Shen

    The Census Bureau, however, long declared that race and ethnicity were two qualitatively different things. Thus, those of Hispanic ethnicity could be of any race.
     
    Shen's Law: In America, blacks, Hispanics and whites love obsessing over race and over each other!

    Example: Virtually everything Ta Nehisi Coates writes about relates to race and in particular to how bad white people are. His white counterpart, John Derbyshire, has been warning us endlessly about the perils of black people.

    Shen’s Law: In America, blacks, Hispanics and whites love obsessing over race and over each other!

    In America, the federal government obsesses about race and ethnicity and gender and disability, and crony capitalism, and creates unconstitutional laws that favor specific kinds of people that are labeled federal protected class groups.

    In America, Democrat and Neocon politicians rely heavily on this anti-constitution federal entitlement scheme to buy the votes of federal protected class groups :

    Feminist are entitled by law because of presumed Male oppression
    Jewish are entitled by law because of presumed Gentile oppression
    Sodomites are entitled by law because of presumed Straight oppression
    Elective Abortionist are entitled by law because of presumed Innocent Life Advocate oppression
    Muslims are entitled by law because of presumed Christian oppression
    Disabled are entitled by law because of presumed Healthy oppression
    Afro-blacks are entitled by law because of presumed White oppression
    Latinos are entitled by law because of presumed Gringo oppression
    Hispanics are entitled by law because of presumed Gringo oppression
    Military Veterans are entitled by law because of presumed Militia oppression
    Native Americans are entitled by law because of presumed Paleface oppression
    Asians are entitled by law because of presumed Occidental oppression
    International Socialist are entitled by law because of presumed Local Government oppression
    Social Justice Crony Capitalist are entitled by law because of presumed Honest Businessmen oppression
    Zionist-Neocons are entitled by law because of presumed Anti-Fascist oppression

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  33. Unrelated but interesting, a civil war between coalition of fringes in Philly.

    Philly City Council Approves Bill Banning Bulletproof Glass From Shops, Korean shop owners protest
    (http://www.informationliberation.com/?id=57730)

    It seems the future isn’t whites vs. the rest. It is Hobbesian all vs. all.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Bill Jones
    There's an excellent write up on this idiocy over at Taki's

    http://takimag.com/article/children_of_the_state_christopher_degroot
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  34. We shouldn’t fall into the trap of believing that culture creates the people(race), we all obviously know that people create the culture.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  35. This “no such thing as race” bit has come up in conversation with some friends of friends. There’s a simple way to kill it dead instantly:

    “You believe race exists – I’ll make you a bet that you do. We take 1,000 photographs of people who’s four grandparents are all either from Kenya or Korea. The deck is 50:50. For every one I guess right, you owe me $1. For every one I get wrong, I owe you $10. You wouldn’t take that bet, even at ten to one odds.” (to which I have added, “so shut up” when I’m not feeling charitable)

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  36. The Pope has 2 Italian parents, yet he is considered Latino and would be classified as Hispanic in the United States

    While the New York Times classified Ted Crus as one of the few non-whites serving in the senate….While 7 of his 8 great-grandparents were born in Europe, and he does not speak Spanish, he is considered Hispanic, as are his daughters..

    Read More
    • Replies: @stillCARealist
    Latino. Latin, Roman, Italy. Isn't everybody whose language and culture was predominantly shaped by the conquering Romans a Latino?

    I find the term "Hispanic" to be as unhelpful as "Asian". You can really be describing just about anybody. Are Filipinos "Hispanic"? Are Russians "Asians"? I wish we could use country-of-origin and just get used to the complications.
    , @Logan
    Tw0 Giordano brothers emigrated from Sicily in 1908. One to NYC, the other to Buenos Aires. Their descendants only married Italians.

    108 years later a BA Giordano emigrates to NYC and is promptly classified as Hispanic and therefore a member of a protected and privileged class.

    The NYC Giordano distant cousin he is staying with is, however, simply a generic American white person, subject to all the related disabilities and denigration.

    Does that sound right to you?

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  37. @Altai
    I think the reasoning is that since there is such much intermixing one could look at 'Hispanics' as a broad category because they are becoming a cohesive population but not nearly enough time as passed for it to have taken place.

    The intricacies of foreigners are often less precise than that within the country. Immigrants often possess this when they lack any concern for the displacement of the host population since everyone is a foreigner to them, non-coethnic immigrants and natives together so they don't understand. You'll hear this from immigrants all the time 'But Berlin/London/Paris' is an immigrant city! (Forgetting that within their lifetime it singularly wasn't) And also ignoring how having the capital city have no ties with the greater country might be a problem and represent an effective pale of settlement. (An example is the oft Sailer mentioned hate towards the countryside that intensified greatly after the great waves of immigration matured in the big cities in the US)

    Yes. Obligatory reference to Albion Seed- the white population of America from Britain was not evenly distributed and formed specific cultures that persist to the present.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  38. @rogue-one
    Unrelated but interesting, a civil war between coalition of fringes in Philly.

    Philly City Council Approves Bill Banning Bulletproof Glass From Shops, Korean shop owners protest
    (http://www.informationliberation.com/?id=57730)

    It seems the future isn't whites vs. the rest. It is Hobbesian all vs. all.

    There’s an excellent write up on this idiocy over at Taki’s

    http://takimag.com/article/children_of_the_state_christopher_degroot

    Read More
    • Replies: @rogue-one
    Thank you. The point that these sorts of laws & behavior would be possible only in a matriarchy is very interesting.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  39. @biz
    I recall an annoying conversation I had with an acquaintance who had adopted an infant from Guatemala who was clearly of entirely or almost entirely indigenous ancestry. The person insisted that their son was "Hispanic" and "Looked Hispanic." I kept trying to make them understand that the young man was neither Hispanic in a cultural sense, having been raised from infancy by an Anglo-American family, nor in the sense of genetic ancestry, containing probably very few Spanish ancestors. If anything he should be considered to be Native American.

    But it was like talking to a wall. This person was over the moon that they were a multiracial white family with a Hispanic son and they were so much more enlightened than the bad people who were prejudging their minority 'Hispanic' teenager.

    It illustrated why the category of 'Hispanic' has lost almost all meaningful content. If it isn't cultural, and it isn't ethnic, and it isn't racial, then what is it?

    It also drove home how much Native Americans have been demoted in the progressive zeitgeist. My impression is that in the 60s and 70s Native Americans were considered pretty awesome, but by a few years ago it was much more awesome to be Hispanic.

    I kept trying to make them understand that the young man was neither Hispanic in a cultural sense…nor in the sense of genetic ancestry

    We need to look into how Australian Aboriginal immigrants to Guatemala are viewed there; are they considered “Anglo-Saxon”?

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  40. @Vinay
    Race is usually used to distinguish populations which have been separated, essentially, forever. So British writers may have previously referred to “the German race” but that no longer feels right.

    Ethnicity is used to distinguish between groups which don’t intermarry much and haven’t for some time. English Protestants and Catholics obviously weren’t separate races but formed distinct communities until recently, and would have developed some cultural differences. An English nobleman may not marry a peasant either but they’d exist on a continuum, without a sharp impermeable boundary.

    Americans descended from Spanish immigrants to the US are of the same race as Mexicans with Spanish ancestry but it should be pretty obvious why we don’t think of one of them as Hispanic, right?

    The purpose is to identify *stable* distinctive communities for policy reasons or whatever other purposes. In the US, English vs Irish ancestry does not lead to any kind of stable separation so it’d be a pretty useless marker for identifying ethnicities. It may well be that Hispanic and Asian ancestry become fairly useless markers in a couple of generations.

    ‘So British writers may have previously referred to “the German race” but that no longer feels right’: it seems fine to me. I feel no need to hew to the old American instinct that only two races matter, the white and the black.

    Do you object to a German writer who referred to the Bavarian race? If so, why? It’s just a reflection of some of the meanings that ‘race’ has carried in western languages. Attempts to claim that race “really” means one thing or another are usually marked by a lack of enquiry into the way the word has been used.

    Read More
    • Replies: @syonredux

    So British writers may have previously referred to “the German race” but that no longer feels right’: it seems fine to me. I feel no need to hew to the old American instinct that only two races matter, the white and the black.
     
    Well, the oldest American instinct would have been that only three races really matter: The White, the Black, and the Amerind....

    ....which differs from the newest American instinct, that only six races really matter : the Mestizo, the East Asian, the Black , the European, the South Asian, and the Middle Eastern....
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  41. @biz
    I recall an annoying conversation I had with an acquaintance who had adopted an infant from Guatemala who was clearly of entirely or almost entirely indigenous ancestry. The person insisted that their son was "Hispanic" and "Looked Hispanic." I kept trying to make them understand that the young man was neither Hispanic in a cultural sense, having been raised from infancy by an Anglo-American family, nor in the sense of genetic ancestry, containing probably very few Spanish ancestors. If anything he should be considered to be Native American.

    But it was like talking to a wall. This person was over the moon that they were a multiracial white family with a Hispanic son and they were so much more enlightened than the bad people who were prejudging their minority 'Hispanic' teenager.

    It illustrated why the category of 'Hispanic' has lost almost all meaningful content. If it isn't cultural, and it isn't ethnic, and it isn't racial, then what is it?

    It also drove home how much Native Americans have been demoted in the progressive zeitgeist. My impression is that in the 60s and 70s Native Americans were considered pretty awesome, but by a few years ago it was much more awesome to be Hispanic.

    “It also drove home how much Native Americans have been demoted in the progressive zeitgeist. My impression is that in the 60s and 70s Native Americans were considered pretty awesome, but by a few years ago it was much more awesome to be Hispanic.”

    I don’t live in Indian Country but I think you’re right in that Indians have been demoted in the liberal mind. I’d guess there are a few reasons for this.

    It’s my understanding Indian reservations are rife with poverty and alcoholism. They may just be too depressing to think about.

    I’ve also read that the intermarriage rate for Indians with whites/non-Indians is fairly high. (I think it was 50% at one point). Maybe there’s not enough racial solidarity to form an Indians Live Matter or something for liberals to rally around.

    Lastly the libs can only use the Indians as a prop for so long. You can preach about how the white man killed the red man or took his land, but the Open Borders Left isn’t exactly trying to stop the invasion.

    Read More
    • Replies: @dfordoom

    Lastly the libs can only use the Indians as a prop for so long. You can preach about how the white man killed the red man or took his land, but the Open Borders Left isn’t exactly trying to stop the invasion.
     
    The American Indians were just racist bigots who didn't understand how much they were going to benefit from Diversity.
    , @biz
    I've said it here before, but some reasons that Native Americans are on the outs with the woke set include:

    - They live in boring, dusty, flyover places
    - They are getting rich off of casinos
    - They tend to be quiet and stoic rather than braggadocious and flamboyant
    - None of them are Muslim
    , @utu
    Indians are too much like Palestinians.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  42. @dearieme
    'So British writers may have previously referred to “the German race” but that no longer feels right': it seems fine to me. I feel no need to hew to the old American instinct that only two races matter, the white and the black.

    Do you object to a German writer who referred to the Bavarian race? If so, why? It's just a reflection of some of the meanings that 'race' has carried in western languages. Attempts to claim that race "really" means one thing or another are usually marked by a lack of enquiry into the way the word has been used.

    So British writers may have previously referred to “the German race” but that no longer feels right’: it seems fine to me. I feel no need to hew to the old American instinct that only two races matter, the white and the black.

    Well, the oldest American instinct would have been that only three races really matter: The White, the Black, and the Amerind….

    ….which differs from the newest American instinct, that only six races really matter : the Mestizo, the East Asian, the Black , the European, the South Asian, and the Middle Eastern….

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  43. @Bill Jones
    There's an excellent write up on this idiocy over at Taki's

    http://takimag.com/article/children_of_the_state_christopher_degroot

    Thank you. The point that these sorts of laws & behavior would be possible only in a matriarchy is very interesting.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  44. You have lots of ancestors from whom you didn’t inherit any specific genes, due to shuffling of the DNA deck being rather coarse, so going more than a certain number of generations back you start having ancestors who didn’t contribute anything to your particular DNA.

    This isn’t necessarily true, because of crossing-over. The further back you go, the more each of your chromosomes are not quantum units but a blend of both parents.

    Still, probability tells us you do have a few—very few—ancestors that contributed nothing directly to your genome starting about eight or nine generations back. That’s if your family is entirely outbred with absolutely no marriages even among distant cousins.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  45. @Tulip
    As I see it, taking the view that the State is an outgrowth of a controlling ethnic group, the problem with the "nation of immigrants" pablum is the same as having a "family" of adoptees.

    A "family" can adopt people, and a "nation" can accept immigrants. However, a "family" can only adopt so many people, before it turns into a de facto orphanage. Likewise, a "nation" can only absorb so many immigrants until it turns into something in the best of circumstances resembling an airport lounge in an internaltion airport (with airport security)-a place where no one wants to actually live.

    A “family” can adopt people, and a “nation” can accept immigrants. However, a “family” can only adopt so many people, before it turns into a de facto orphanage.

    Pithy. This is a pro comment.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  46. @Dr. X

    My definitions have been:

    - A racial group is a partly inbred extended biological family.

    - An ethnic groups is defined by shared traits that are often passed down within biological families — e.g., language, surname, religion, cuisine, accent, self-identification, historical or mythological heroes, musical styles, etc. — but that don’t have to be. (Thus, you can be adopted into an ethnic group, but not into a racial group.)
     

    I like that, it's very thoughtful and useful. However, it's not a perfect defnition, so let me poke some holes in it:

    Joey Francis Tribbiani Jr. may not look immediately all that different from a British-American
     
    True if he's a Northern Italian... but almost certainly not if he's a Sicilian! You can take one look at a red-headed, blue-eyed Irish colleen and know immediately she's not from Sicily. To the contrary, you probably couldn't tell her apart from a ginger from Britain.

    So there are some genetic, not merely cultural, differences across ethnic groups as well. Take the case of the Arabs, for instance... are they a race or an ethnicity? Most surely appear to be nonwhite, but not exactly black, either. Same for Subcontinentals.

    To further complicate matters, personality traits may be heritable in addition to physical markers. British and Irish may have physical similarities, but probably quite different temperaments.

    So it's not as cut-and-dried we might wish it were...

    but almost certainly not if he’s a Sicilian! You can take one look at a red-headed, blue-eyed Irish colleen and know immediately she’s not from Sicily.

    Does anyone at all consider Sicilians to be white? Doubtful.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  47. The ethnicity line sounds very marxist

    Not every ethnicity is cultural/environmental.

    if Jim is of the R1 Y-DNA haplogroup and Apollo is of the J2 haplogroup, then it would be impossible for us to claim that they are from the same ethnicity

    an ethnicity is a group of people who share the same forefather ( Y-DNA )

    Read More
    • Replies: @syonredux

    an ethnicity is a group of people who share the same forefather ( Y-DNA )
     
    Lots of Blacks and Mestizos have European Y-DNA....
    , @Grace Jones
    Y chromosomes do not determine ethnicity. Each ethnicity has a mixture of Y chromosome types, and they often overlap.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  48. @Wilhelm Bismark
    The ethnicity line sounds very marxist

    Not every ethnicity is cultural/environmental.


    if Jim is of the R1 Y-DNA haplogroup and Apollo is of the J2 haplogroup, then it would be impossible for us to claim that they are from the same ethnicity

    an ethnicity is a group of people who share the same forefather ( Y-DNA )

    an ethnicity is a group of people who share the same forefather ( Y-DNA )

    Lots of Blacks and Mestizos have European Y-DNA….

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wilhelm Bismark
    We are talking about pedigree specimens

    Some new world blacks and many Mexicans are mixed
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  49. ethnicity is less about race… Carlos Slim is a Mexican , would be counted as hispanic by the US census despite having no Spanish ancestors…both his parents are from Lebanon.

    Don Francisco (Mario Kreutzberger Blumenfeld), was a popular personality on the Univision network In 2016, he signed into Telemundo. He is best known for hosting the former variety shows Sábado Gigante. Both his parents were born in Germany…he has no Spanish ancestors yet he is considered Hispanic.

    David Ortiz is hispanic , yet obviously of mostly African ancestry..

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  50. @syonredux

    an ethnicity is a group of people who share the same forefather ( Y-DNA )
     
    Lots of Blacks and Mestizos have European Y-DNA....

    We are talking about pedigree specimens

    Some new world blacks and many Mexicans are mixed

    Read More
    • Replies: @syonredux

    We are talking about pedigree specimens
     
    Which shows that Y-DNA alone isn't enough.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  51. @Wilhelm Bismark
    The ethnicity line sounds very marxist

    Not every ethnicity is cultural/environmental.


    if Jim is of the R1 Y-DNA haplogroup and Apollo is of the J2 haplogroup, then it would be impossible for us to claim that they are from the same ethnicity

    an ethnicity is a group of people who share the same forefather ( Y-DNA )

    Y chromosomes do not determine ethnicity. Each ethnicity has a mixture of Y chromosome types, and they often overlap.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wilhelm Bismark
    That is not true

    The Northern most part of Germany has a lot of the pre-germanic nordics( I1 Haplogroup). Those people are from Scandinavia (Sweden etc) and cluster with them.

    We dont say that they the non-I1 Germans are the same ethnicity because they don't have the same forefather.

    of course that doesn't mean that the pre-germanic nordics (I1) should be expelled. They are more native to Northern Germany than us Germans.

    people of completely different genetic heritage can never be the same ethnicity but they can be co-natives.

    To say otherwise is complete cultural marxism

    the logical conclusion of your Marxist belief is that anyone can be a German.

    If anyone can be a German then why care about the demographic destruction of your homeland ?

    I respect America's achievement of creating a white country but i would never tolerate Germany becoming merely a white country.

    a multi-ethnic country is a necessity for America but it would be a downgrade for the German nation
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  52. @Wilhelm Bismark
    We are talking about pedigree specimens

    Some new world blacks and many Mexicans are mixed

    We are talking about pedigree specimens

    Which shows that Y-DNA alone isn’t enough.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  53. @Corn
    “It also drove home how much Native Americans have been demoted in the progressive zeitgeist. My impression is that in the 60s and 70s Native Americans were considered pretty awesome, but by a few years ago it was much more awesome to be Hispanic.”

    I don’t live in Indian Country but I think you’re right in that Indians have been demoted in the liberal mind. I’d guess there are a few reasons for this.

    It’s my understanding Indian reservations are rife with poverty and alcoholism. They may just be too depressing to think about.

    I’ve also read that the intermarriage rate for Indians with whites/non-Indians is fairly high. (I think it was 50% at one point). Maybe there’s not enough racial solidarity to form an Indians Live Matter or something for liberals to rally around.

    Lastly the libs can only use the Indians as a prop for so long. You can preach about how the white man killed the red man or took his land, but the Open Borders Left isn’t exactly trying to stop the invasion.

    Lastly the libs can only use the Indians as a prop for so long. You can preach about how the white man killed the red man or took his land, but the Open Borders Left isn’t exactly trying to stop the invasion.

    The American Indians were just racist bigots who didn’t understand how much they were going to benefit from Diversity.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  54. @L Woods
    "Hispanic" an a (meta?) ethnicity is obviously quite stupid rent seeking behavior. It makes about as much sense an "Anglophone" "ethnicity" encompassing Anglo Saxons, Jamaicans, Kenyans, Punjabis et al.

    This guy; this guy right here: he gets it. At least there are two of us, friend.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  55. @Yan Shen

    The Census Bureau, however, long declared that race and ethnicity were two qualitatively different things. Thus, those of Hispanic ethnicity could be of any race.
     
    Shen's Law: In America, blacks, Hispanics and whites love obsessing over race and over each other!

    Example: Virtually everything Ta Nehisi Coates writes about relates to race and in particular to how bad white people are. His white counterpart, John Derbyshire, has been warning us endlessly about the perils of black people.

    Issac’s Law: Any Shen post not concerning asian supremacy will demur about the pointlessness of race obsession.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  56. @Grace Jones
    Y chromosomes do not determine ethnicity. Each ethnicity has a mixture of Y chromosome types, and they often overlap.

    That is not true

    The Northern most part of Germany has a lot of the pre-germanic nordics( I1 Haplogroup). Those people are from Scandinavia (Sweden etc) and cluster with them.

    We dont say that they the non-I1 Germans are the same ethnicity because they don’t have the same forefather.

    of course that doesn’t mean that the pre-germanic nordics (I1) should be expelled. They are more native to Northern Germany than us Germans.

    people of completely different genetic heritage can never be the same ethnicity but they can be co-natives.

    To say otherwise is complete cultural marxism

    the logical conclusion of your Marxist belief is that anyone can be a German.

    If anyone can be a German then why care about the demographic destruction of your homeland ?

    I respect America’s achievement of creating a white country but i would never tolerate Germany becoming merely a white country.

    a multi-ethnic country is a necessity for America but it would be a downgrade for the German nation

    Read More
    • Replies: @syonredux

    “French-German” is a cluster almost certainly because there are no clear and distinct genetic differences between French and Germans. Yes, there is a continuum of allele frequencies between these two groups, but having looked at a fair number of people of French and German background in Family Tree DNA’s database I can tell you that France and Germany have a lot of local structure even among people of indigenous ancestry. Germans from the Rhineland are quite often genetically closer to French from Normandy than they are to Germans from eastern Saxony. Some of this is due to gene flow between neighboring regions, but some of this is due to cultural fluidity as to who exactly is German. It is clear that some Germans from the eastern regions are Germanized Slavs. Some Germans from the north exhibit strong affinities to Scandinavians, while Germans from Bavaria and Austria are classically Central European (whatever that means).
     
    http://www.razib.com/wordpress/?cat=2643
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  57. Barbers transmit ethnicity unless they also do hair coloring.

    I lived in Korea for 18 months and I kept getting haircuts from the local guys that made me look Korean. Same when I dyed my hair to cover the gray – always too black!

    A clear case of ethnicity working to mold race.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  58. @charles w abbott
    Sir Steve,

    That is a very good start.

    In the USA, race has been exceedingly important in these matters, along with the association of African origins with chattel slavery.

    A complicating fact is definitely that of "scale."

    Consider a big country such as Nigeria (which I have some passing familiarity with).

    Since virtually everyone is phenotypically black, race has virtually no salience, and "ethnicity" is all important. Yet ethnicity will tend to mean belonging to an ethnolinguistic group, and a test of that membership will tend to be ability to speak a language and the ability to trace one's origin to a paternal town of origin.

    Yet the "ethnic groups" are moderately new. The identity of "Yoruba" probably doesn't pre-date the Yoruba Bible (translated by Crowther about 150 years ago). The identity of "Igbo" is even newer. How could the Igbo fight a secessionist war for survival in the 1960s if the identity had almost no meaning as recently as 1900?

    = - = - = -

    I believe it was Rogers Brubaker who talked about "groupism." Groups are defined by other groups. In much of Africa you will see "ethnolinguistic" identity. Caste becomes salient in India. And the group is defined by interaction in a "container"--a state or an electoral space.

    In any modern society with popular elections, we will see groups that are assembled to contest elections.

    In addition, we can see "pissing wars" in which civil service exams with bilingual competence are a tool of the underdog. In Bohemia, Germans often couldn't speak Czech, but Czechs were bilingual. In South Africa, Anglos frequently couldn't speak Afrikaans, but the Boers could speak both if they had too. Civil service exams become a tool of exclusion, conveniently useful for the subordinate group.

    = - = - = - =

    Bakalian wrote a book with a title or subtitle: "From being to feeling Armenian" about Armenian identity in the USA. Many nominal ethnics are getting there in the USA. There are many people who "feel Irish" or Italian who on one level are declaring an identity, and performing it, but anybody could do what they are doing.

    Frank Salmon talked about "ringers" in Nigerian politics--people who pretended to an bogus ethnic identity to contest elections.

    The salient variables that characterize ethnicity are just going to vary from place to place and from time to time.

    I sometimes think that Walker Connor's claim is correct: some identities are ineffable. Odd word, but it's hard to come up with a substitute for it. He did a lot of scholarship on ethnonationalism, and he asserted that the feeling of being or belonging or membership in a group can be based on something that is ineffable. When we try to reduce it to language or sect or style of dress or physiognomy we have not actually gotten to the root of the matter.

    This is especially the case because these things are dynamic--they change over time. And they are context dependent--which is where Brubaker's notion of "groupism" comes in.

    Identity Politics (in a relatively rootless USA) will introduce further complications.

    Census Definitions will introduce still others.

    Correction: Frank Salamone, “Nigeria: A nation of ringers,” or something like that. Professional politicians sometimes pretend to an ethnicity that is not really “legitimately” theirs.

    Curse you autocorrect!

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  59. “Hispanic” cannot be defined very accurately, except to say that it includes anyone who is not a gringo.

    To be hispanic your skin can be any color, but you should speak Spanish, or even Portuguese, which is somewhat similar to Spanish, eat hispanic style cuisine, listen to hispanic music, TV, and movies, and be familiar with some of the artists in those fields. You should also have hispanic manners and know how to make allowances for gringos who do not behave properly. You should be able to perform hispanic dances like salsa and meringue, or at least know what they are.

    Even if you do not score on all these points, you may have honorary hispanic status if you have inherited it, but were educated outside the geographic hispanic empire, or if you have married into it, or you have hispanic children. Jeb Bush may qualify for honorary status.

    You are a gringo if you speak Spanish badly or eat American fast food by preference.

    So really being hispanic is like being a Jew. You don’t have to be born into it, but if you are born into it, you can never convert to being a gringo.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  60. @Corn
    “It also drove home how much Native Americans have been demoted in the progressive zeitgeist. My impression is that in the 60s and 70s Native Americans were considered pretty awesome, but by a few years ago it was much more awesome to be Hispanic.”

    I don’t live in Indian Country but I think you’re right in that Indians have been demoted in the liberal mind. I’d guess there are a few reasons for this.

    It’s my understanding Indian reservations are rife with poverty and alcoholism. They may just be too depressing to think about.

    I’ve also read that the intermarriage rate for Indians with whites/non-Indians is fairly high. (I think it was 50% at one point). Maybe there’s not enough racial solidarity to form an Indians Live Matter or something for liberals to rally around.

    Lastly the libs can only use the Indians as a prop for so long. You can preach about how the white man killed the red man or took his land, but the Open Borders Left isn’t exactly trying to stop the invasion.

    I’ve said it here before, but some reasons that Native Americans are on the outs with the woke set include:

    - They live in boring, dusty, flyover places
    - They are getting rich off of casinos
    - They tend to be quiet and stoic rather than braggadocious and flamboyant
    - None of them are Muslim

    Read More
    • Replies: @syonredux

    They tend to be quiet and stoic rather than braggadocious and flamboyant
     
    Probably the key reason. Cf how Blacks are far more popular in films and television. Blacks are loud and demonstrative.

    Charles Darwin on the taciturn Amerinds and the loquacious Blacks:

    “There is, however, no doubt that the various races, when carefully compared and measured, differ much from each other, as in the texture of the hair, the relative proportions of all parts of the body, the capacity of the lungs, the form and capacity of the skull, and even in the convolutions of the brain. But it would be an endless task to specify the numerous points of difference. The races differ also in constitution, in acclimatisation and in liability to certain diseases. Their mental characteristics are likewise very distinct; chiefly as it would appear in their emotional, but partly in their intellectual faculties. Everyone who has had the opportunity of comparison must have been struck with the contrast between the taciturn, even morose, aborigines of S. America and the lighthearted, talkative negroes.
     
    , @dfordoom

    I’ve said it here before, but some reasons that Native Americans are on the outs with the woke set include:

    - They live in boring, dusty, flyover places
    - They are getting rich off of casinos
    - They tend to be quiet and stoic rather than braggadocious and flamboyant
    - None of them are Muslim
     
    The most important reason is that they're not immigrants so they don't fit the Narrative. How can a native people be oppressed? That would mean that native Swedes or native Englishmen could be oppressed.

    It's not just that they're useless from the point of view of the Narrative. They're positively dangerous. Their existence suggests that the Narrative might be wrong. Hence their expulsion from the Coalition of the Fringes.

    The same thing is likely to happen to the Australian Aboriginals. For decades they've been the darlings of Australian SJWs but they seem to be gradually falling out of fashion. Give it another decade and they might find themselves expelled from the Coalition of the Fringes as well.
    , @Logan
    They haven't been kicked out of the coalition, they're simply being ignored.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  61. There is a huge amount of confusion around this issue, which needs to be understood, not just intellectually, but also emotionally, because, as an inherently tribal animal, it is profoundly important to us and our sense of identity, even when we are ideologically indoctrinated not to admit it.

    The state conflates and confounds very different aspects of the original tribal environment in which human nature evolved, long before the first states and civilisations emerged from it, with the modern “nation state” now deceitfully posing as our tribe or nation (intra- and inter-tribal environment) itself, while at the same time facilitating society’s SELF-exploitation (as an extra-tribal environment, on a par with the natural environment) to the personal advantage of its ruling elites and favoured (especially wealthy and academic/formerly priestly) clients, at the expense of society at large.

    The state has always trivialised, ridiculed or demonised our tribal nature, while at the same time manipulating and exploiting it for its own purposes. A good deal of its power is derived from its citizens identifying with it as their tribe or nation, despite it being a lie and deceit.

    The state is our biggest enemy (unless you happen to be one of its favoured clients), but we can’t do battle with and defeat it as we would a normal enemy, because we all depend on it.

    It’s like an abusive step-parent which did away with our natural, loving parents (our original tribes and nations) before we were even born, bringing us up to believe that it is our natural loving parent (nation), genuinely concerned for all its children’s (citizens’) well-being and future happiness, when in fact, its primary purpose is to facilitate society’s self-abuse and exploitation, to the personal advantage of its elites, and favoured clients.

    We need the state, at the very least to enforce the rule of law and non-violence. What we don’t need are the lies, deceit and regime of rewards, punishments and intimidation by means of which it asserts itself as a pseudo nation.

    I elaborate on these ideas in my blog: http://philosopherkin.blogspot.co.uk/2016/10/political-implications-of-evolutionary.html

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  62. There’s two problems, both in the question itself, and each unrelated to the other.

    The first problem is that ethnicity doesn’t inform race or vice versa – so it’s not an incoherent question but it’s almost like asking the difference between numbers and colors. Family tells you no more about race, as a concept, than ethnicity – which is to say: nothing whatsoever, because the relationship of family across all races is identical and invariant, as is the relationship of ethnicity. Ethnicity itself, taken on its own terms, relates ultimately to a tribal origin and its meaning is best unpacked by beginning with its etymology which takes us through the Greek, ethnos.

    The second problem is that always overshadowing an otherwise straightforward question that should be subject to data is the USCB definition which is altogether unscientific, yet both pervasive and imposed everywhere.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  63. @David Allan coe
    The Pope has 2 Italian parents, yet he is considered Latino and would be classified as Hispanic in the United States

    While the New York Times classified Ted Crus as one of the few non-whites serving in the senate....While 7 of his 8 great-grandparents were born in Europe, and he does not speak Spanish, he is considered Hispanic, as are his daughters..

    Latino. Latin, Roman, Italy. Isn’t everybody whose language and culture was predominantly shaped by the conquering Romans a Latino?

    I find the term “Hispanic” to be as unhelpful as “Asian”. You can really be describing just about anybody. Are Filipinos “Hispanic”? Are Russians “Asians”? I wish we could use country-of-origin and just get used to the complications.

    Read More
    • Replies: @syonredux
    Of course, WOKE-folk favor Latinx....
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  64. “To be hispanic your skin can be any color, but you should speak Spanish, or even Portuguese””

    Portuguese speakers (Portugal, brazil,e tc…) are not hispanic, they are lusitanic or lusophone (this is the term most used in Portuguese, “lusófono”).

    The language is different, the culture is different, the food is different. Even when it seems the words are the same, they are not. Pick your “gringo” example.

    In Portugal the word is rarely used. Meanwhile, in Brazil any foreign is a “gringo”, no just white Americans or Canadians.

    Our hispanic neighbors (Argentinians, Paraguayans, Uruguayns, etc…) are called “gringos” here. Even Mexicans are “gringo” here (which is hilarious when they realize that).

    Read More
    • Replies: @AndrewR
    What about Portuguese people?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  65. @Corn
    “It also drove home how much Native Americans have been demoted in the progressive zeitgeist. My impression is that in the 60s and 70s Native Americans were considered pretty awesome, but by a few years ago it was much more awesome to be Hispanic.”

    I don’t live in Indian Country but I think you’re right in that Indians have been demoted in the liberal mind. I’d guess there are a few reasons for this.

    It’s my understanding Indian reservations are rife with poverty and alcoholism. They may just be too depressing to think about.

    I’ve also read that the intermarriage rate for Indians with whites/non-Indians is fairly high. (I think it was 50% at one point). Maybe there’s not enough racial solidarity to form an Indians Live Matter or something for liberals to rally around.

    Lastly the libs can only use the Indians as a prop for so long. You can preach about how the white man killed the red man or took his land, but the Open Borders Left isn’t exactly trying to stop the invasion.

    Indians are too much like Palestinians.

    Read More
    • Replies: @biz
    Except for being opposite in almost every conceivable way, up to and including that Palestinian Arabs are a favorite of the woke set and Indians are not, sure whatever.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  66. @Wilhelm Bismark
    That is not true

    The Northern most part of Germany has a lot of the pre-germanic nordics( I1 Haplogroup). Those people are from Scandinavia (Sweden etc) and cluster with them.

    We dont say that they the non-I1 Germans are the same ethnicity because they don't have the same forefather.

    of course that doesn't mean that the pre-germanic nordics (I1) should be expelled. They are more native to Northern Germany than us Germans.

    people of completely different genetic heritage can never be the same ethnicity but they can be co-natives.

    To say otherwise is complete cultural marxism

    the logical conclusion of your Marxist belief is that anyone can be a German.

    If anyone can be a German then why care about the demographic destruction of your homeland ?

    I respect America's achievement of creating a white country but i would never tolerate Germany becoming merely a white country.

    a multi-ethnic country is a necessity for America but it would be a downgrade for the German nation

    “French-German” is a cluster almost certainly because there are no clear and distinct genetic differences between French and Germans. Yes, there is a continuum of allele frequencies between these two groups, but having looked at a fair number of people of French and German background in Family Tree DNA’s database I can tell you that France and Germany have a lot of local structure even among people of indigenous ancestry. Germans from the Rhineland are quite often genetically closer to French from Normandy than they are to Germans from eastern Saxony. Some of this is due to gene flow between neighboring regions, but some of this is due to cultural fluidity as to who exactly is German. It is clear that some Germans from the eastern regions are Germanized Slavs. Some Germans from the north exhibit strong affinities to Scandinavians, while Germans from Bavaria and Austria are classically Central European (whatever that means).

    http://www.razib.com/wordpress/?cat=2643

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  67. @biz
    I recall an annoying conversation I had with an acquaintance who had adopted an infant from Guatemala who was clearly of entirely or almost entirely indigenous ancestry. The person insisted that their son was "Hispanic" and "Looked Hispanic." I kept trying to make them understand that the young man was neither Hispanic in a cultural sense, having been raised from infancy by an Anglo-American family, nor in the sense of genetic ancestry, containing probably very few Spanish ancestors. If anything he should be considered to be Native American.

    But it was like talking to a wall. This person was over the moon that they were a multiracial white family with a Hispanic son and they were so much more enlightened than the bad people who were prejudging their minority 'Hispanic' teenager.

    It illustrated why the category of 'Hispanic' has lost almost all meaningful content. If it isn't cultural, and it isn't ethnic, and it isn't racial, then what is it?

    It also drove home how much Native Americans have been demoted in the progressive zeitgeist. My impression is that in the 60s and 70s Native Americans were considered pretty awesome, but by a few years ago it was much more awesome to be Hispanic.

    >It also drove home how much Native Americans have been demoted in the progressive zeitgeist. My impression is that in the 60s and 70s Native Americans were considered pretty awesome, but by a few years ago it was much more awesome to be Hispanic.

    Consider blacks as the shock troops of liberals. Native Americans aren’t willing to riot and burn down cities because Trump got elected. But blacks & hispanics will.

    You gotta support the guys who fight, not the ones who sit on the sides.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  68. @biz
    I've said it here before, but some reasons that Native Americans are on the outs with the woke set include:

    - They live in boring, dusty, flyover places
    - They are getting rich off of casinos
    - They tend to be quiet and stoic rather than braggadocious and flamboyant
    - None of them are Muslim

    They tend to be quiet and stoic rather than braggadocious and flamboyant

    Probably the key reason. Cf how Blacks are far more popular in films and television. Blacks are loud and demonstrative.

    Charles Darwin on the taciturn Amerinds and the loquacious Blacks:

    “There is, however, no doubt that the various races, when carefully compared and measured, differ much from each other, as in the texture of the hair, the relative proportions of all parts of the body, the capacity of the lungs, the form and capacity of the skull, and even in the convolutions of the brain. But it would be an endless task to specify the numerous points of difference. The races differ also in constitution, in acclimatisation and in liability to certain diseases. Their mental characteristics are likewise very distinct; chiefly as it would appear in their emotional, but partly in their intellectual faculties. Everyone who has had the opportunity of comparison must have been struck with the contrast between the taciturn, even morose, aborigines of S. America and the lighthearted, talkative negroes.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  69. @stillCARealist
    Latino. Latin, Roman, Italy. Isn't everybody whose language and culture was predominantly shaped by the conquering Romans a Latino?

    I find the term "Hispanic" to be as unhelpful as "Asian". You can really be describing just about anybody. Are Filipinos "Hispanic"? Are Russians "Asians"? I wish we could use country-of-origin and just get used to the complications.

    Of course, WOKE-folk favor Latinx….

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  70. @enemy of earth
    Appearance can be deceiving. Thanks to mi madre's genetic influence (Mexican and Indian) and mi papa's generic East Texas white trash genes I have been mistaken for Italian, Palestinian, European Jew, and India Indian to name a few.

    I have lots of fun with this. Once in a Dunkin Donuts I noticed the guy behind the counter looking at me intently. He was obviously from India or Pakistan. When I got to the counter, he asked me, "Where are you from?" I replied, "Downers Grove" which is the village in which I reside. He then asked, "No. Where are you from?" I knew what he was getting at so I replied, "Chicago." The poor guy rolled his eyes. "No, where did your family come from?" I replied, "Texas." He gave up and asked for my order.

    Mexican and Indian? That’s an unusual mix, especially for someone your mother’s age (based on simple statistics, presumably she’s over 50 years old and probably a lot older). Unless you meant “American Indian,” in which case you should have said “American Indian”, “Native American” or the specific tribe in order to avoid confusing the reader.

    Anyway, your story would confuse an SJW, since according to them only wypipo say things like “where are you from” in order to mean “where are your ancestors from”

    Read More
    • Replies: @enemy of earth
    Yes, I probably should have been more specific. I was referring to indigenous people of Mexico. Apparently one of her ancestors was a full blooded native who married Mexican ( progeny of Spanish and native). If my mother was alive she would have been 94 this year. One of my cousins claims that this ancestor was Aztec. I have no way of knowing if that was true or wishful thinking on his part. He was militantly Hispanic and thought I was a terrible Mexican-American because I didn't speak Spanish and I needed to get in touch with my roots. I told him I was an American and all I knew or cared about Mexico was tamales on Christmas and menudo on the weekend.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  71. @L Woods
    "Hispanic" an a (meta?) ethnicity is obviously quite stupid rent seeking behavior. It makes about as much sense an "Anglophone" "ethnicity" encompassing Anglo Saxons, Jamaicans, Kenyans, Punjabis et al.

    Yeah, Hispanic really is a stupid label.
    It’s not even a linguistic marker, since many people whose ancestors spoke Spanish cannot speak Spanish. If someone wanted to argue that race is socially constructed, they would likely have no stronger evidence than the “Hispanic” “race.” There are countless millions of people who literally think that Cameron Diaz and Julian Castro are of the same race. Just yesterday I saw a random idiot on zuccbook say “my kids look white but their mom is part Mexican”

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  72. @J1234

    An ethnic group is defined by shared traits that are often passed down within biological families — e.g., language, surname, religion, cuisine, accent, self-identification, historical or mythological heroes, musical styles, etc. — but that don’t have to be.
     
    Interesting. Are white Americans and white Canadians different ethnicities, I wonder? Southerners and midwesterners?

    I’d say so, absolutely, especially since the cultural differences between groups largely correlate with ancestry. My Rust Belt city has a lot of ethnically Scots-Irish people who came up here three generations or so ago from Missouri and Arkansas in order to work in the factories. They’ve kept all the social pathologies for which their people are known.

    Read the book Albion’s Seed if you haven’t. Very informative as to how different groups have retained so much of their cultures even after centuries in the US.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  73. @Marco
    "To be hispanic your skin can be any color, but you should speak Spanish, or even Portuguese""

    Portuguese speakers (Portugal, brazil,e tc...) are not hispanic, they are lusitanic or lusophone (this is the term most used in Portuguese, "lusófono").

    The language is different, the culture is different, the food is different. Even when it seems the words are the same, they are not. Pick your "gringo" example.

    In Portugal the word is rarely used. Meanwhile, in Brazil any foreign is a "gringo", no just white Americans or Canadians.

    Our hispanic neighbors (Argentinians, Paraguayans, Uruguayns, etc...) are called "gringos" here. Even Mexicans are "gringo" here (which is hilarious when they realize that).

    What about Portuguese people?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Marco
    Portuguese people? They are lusitanic or lusophone like Brazilians or Angolans. Definitely not hispanic.

    If anything, what defines the Portuguese as well as Brazilians is the fact that the hispanics were their ENEMIES for much of their history. The fact that Portugal is an independent country (recovering independency even after Spanish subjugation) and that Brazil is half of South America (basically kicking the hispanics out of more than half of its territory) is almost a miracle considering how much more powerful the Spanish Empire was.

    Everytime an American calls a Portuguese or Brazilian hispanic they are pretty much erasing our history and putting us together with our historical rivals.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  74. @utu
    Indians are too much like Palestinians.

    Except for being opposite in almost every conceivable way, up to and including that Palestinian Arabs are a favorite of the woke set and Indians are not, sure whatever.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  75. @biz
    I've said it here before, but some reasons that Native Americans are on the outs with the woke set include:

    - They live in boring, dusty, flyover places
    - They are getting rich off of casinos
    - They tend to be quiet and stoic rather than braggadocious and flamboyant
    - None of them are Muslim

    I’ve said it here before, but some reasons that Native Americans are on the outs with the woke set include:

    - They live in boring, dusty, flyover places
    - They are getting rich off of casinos
    - They tend to be quiet and stoic rather than braggadocious and flamboyant
    - None of them are Muslim

    The most important reason is that they’re not immigrants so they don’t fit the Narrative. How can a native people be oppressed? That would mean that native Swedes or native Englishmen could be oppressed.

    It’s not just that they’re useless from the point of view of the Narrative. They’re positively dangerous. Their existence suggests that the Narrative might be wrong. Hence their expulsion from the Coalition of the Fringes.

    The same thing is likely to happen to the Australian Aboriginals. For decades they’ve been the darlings of Australian SJWs but they seem to be gradually falling out of fashion. Give it another decade and they might find themselves expelled from the Coalition of the Fringes as well.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Thomm

    The most important reason is that they’re not immigrants so they don’t fit the Narrative. How can a native people be oppressed?
     
    Ironically, Native Americans, all things considered, got much worse treatment than blacks or anyone else.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  76. @AndrewR
    Mexican and Indian? That's an unusual mix, especially for someone your mother's age (based on simple statistics, presumably she's over 50 years old and probably a lot older). Unless you meant "American Indian," in which case you should have said "American Indian", "Native American" or the specific tribe in order to avoid confusing the reader.

    Anyway, your story would confuse an SJW, since according to them only wypipo say things like "where are you from" in order to mean "where are your ancestors from"

    Yes, I probably should have been more specific. I was referring to indigenous people of Mexico. Apparently one of her ancestors was a full blooded native who married Mexican ( progeny of Spanish and native). If my mother was alive she would have been 94 this year. One of my cousins claims that this ancestor was Aztec. I have no way of knowing if that was true or wishful thinking on his part. He was militantly Hispanic and thought I was a terrible Mexican-American because I didn’t speak Spanish and I needed to get in touch with my roots. I told him I was an American and all I knew or cared about Mexico was tamales on Christmas and menudo on the weekend.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  77. @dfordoom

    I’ve said it here before, but some reasons that Native Americans are on the outs with the woke set include:

    - They live in boring, dusty, flyover places
    - They are getting rich off of casinos
    - They tend to be quiet and stoic rather than braggadocious and flamboyant
    - None of them are Muslim
     
    The most important reason is that they're not immigrants so they don't fit the Narrative. How can a native people be oppressed? That would mean that native Swedes or native Englishmen could be oppressed.

    It's not just that they're useless from the point of view of the Narrative. They're positively dangerous. Their existence suggests that the Narrative might be wrong. Hence their expulsion from the Coalition of the Fringes.

    The same thing is likely to happen to the Australian Aboriginals. For decades they've been the darlings of Australian SJWs but they seem to be gradually falling out of fashion. Give it another decade and they might find themselves expelled from the Coalition of the Fringes as well.

    The most important reason is that they’re not immigrants so they don’t fit the Narrative. How can a native people be oppressed?

    Ironically, Native Americans, all things considered, got much worse treatment than blacks or anyone else.

    Read More
    • Replies: @dfordoom

    Ironically, Native Americans, all things considered, got much worse treatment than blacks or anyone else.
     
    True. But if you don't fit the Narrative it's under the bus you go.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  78. @Thomm

    The most important reason is that they’re not immigrants so they don’t fit the Narrative. How can a native people be oppressed?
     
    Ironically, Native Americans, all things considered, got much worse treatment than blacks or anyone else.

    Ironically, Native Americans, all things considered, got much worse treatment than blacks or anyone else.

    True. But if you don’t fit the Narrative it’s under the bus you go.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  79. @AndrewR
    What about Portuguese people?

    Portuguese people? They are lusitanic or lusophone like Brazilians or Angolans. Definitely not hispanic.

    If anything, what defines the Portuguese as well as Brazilians is the fact that the hispanics were their ENEMIES for much of their history. The fact that Portugal is an independent country (recovering independency even after Spanish subjugation) and that Brazil is half of South America (basically kicking the hispanics out of more than half of its territory) is almost a miracle considering how much more powerful the Spanish Empire was.

    Everytime an American calls a Portuguese or Brazilian hispanic they are pretty much erasing our history and putting us together with our historical rivals.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  80. @Yan Shen

    The Census Bureau, however, long declared that race and ethnicity were two qualitatively different things. Thus, those of Hispanic ethnicity could be of any race.
     
    Shen's Law: In America, blacks, Hispanics and whites love obsessing over race and over each other!

    Example: Virtually everything Ta Nehisi Coates writes about relates to race and in particular to how bad white people are. His white counterpart, John Derbyshire, has been warning us endlessly about the perils of black people.

    Issac’s Law: Any Shen post not concerning asian supremacy will demur about the pointlessness of race obsession.

    Issac’s law *owns* Shen’s “law”.

    BTW Shen, your continued pathetic mischaracterization of Derb’s work–whose supposed obsession with black people pretty much begins and ends him occasionally pointing out how boring black “intellectuals” are because of their blackety-blackety-black focus–strongly suggests your own racial obsession with Derb courting, winning, repeatedly banging and impregnating a Chinese gal. If not that, you should come up semi-plausible reason for your Derb mischaracterization-obsession.

    Read More
    • Agree: Logan
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  81. The Census Bureau, however, long declared that race and ethnicity were two qualitatively different things. Thus, those of Hispanic ethnicity could be of any race. (For unexplained reasons, everybody else had only one ethnicity: NonHispanic.)

    This ridiculous nonsense of having the one “ethnicity” in the US be “Hispanic” is something Trump should have fixed.

    Have a race category. Whites, Blacks, Native Americans, Orientals, Polynesians and include the obvious Mestizo and Mulatto mixes so you give the Mexicans (and Puerto Ricans) something explict to write down. One can make arguments about whether you have a broad “Caucasian” category or have “European”, “middle-Eastern”, “South Asian”.

    Then have an ethnic category, where people can do their sorting. Mostly this reduces to “national orgin” of ancestors, but you also have particulars like Jewish, Scots-Irish, French-Canadian. You could have a generic “American”–or not.

    Then go ahead and ask the “national origin of ancestors” queston.

    Then ask the religion question. (You could throw in a “believing” vs. “team” question.)

    The effect of these changes would be primarily to give a more accurate picture, but also to break up some of the anti-white coalition building–”Asian”–and to ferret out some of the more two-faced have it both ways behavior from white “Hispanics” and Jews.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Logan
    You may be right about the census bureau, but in generic American usage there are many hyphenated ethnicities. Afriean-, Asian-, Hispanic-, etc.

    But Euro-American or white American is not one of them. In fact, I've had extended discussions (on conservative sites!) with those who contend that I don't have an ethnicity.

    One lady was very proud of her Polish ethnicity, her parents having fled Communism.

    So I asked her what she'd consider my ethnicity to be, since my ancestry is split up among half a dozen NW Euro countries. I suggested American or white American, since I have zero emotional attachment to any of my ancestors' homelands and it seems really stupid to just pick one.

    Her reply was that "American" is not an ethnicity and for me to use it as such implies that only white Americans like me are "really" Americans, therefore the usage would be racist. "White American" and "Euro-American" are unacceptable for similar reasons.

    So her final judgment was that people like me, uniquely in the world, do not have and cannot have an ethnicity.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  82. @David Allan coe
    The Pope has 2 Italian parents, yet he is considered Latino and would be classified as Hispanic in the United States

    While the New York Times classified Ted Crus as one of the few non-whites serving in the senate....While 7 of his 8 great-grandparents were born in Europe, and he does not speak Spanish, he is considered Hispanic, as are his daughters..

    Tw0 Giordano brothers emigrated from Sicily in 1908. One to NYC, the other to Buenos Aires. Their descendants only married Italians.

    108 years later a BA Giordano emigrates to NYC and is promptly classified as Hispanic and therefore a member of a protected and privileged class.

    The NYC Giordano distant cousin he is staying with is, however, simply a generic American white person, subject to all the related disabilities and denigration.

    Does that sound right to you?

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  83. @AnotherDad

    The Census Bureau, however, long declared that race and ethnicity were two qualitatively different things. Thus, those of Hispanic ethnicity could be of any race. (For unexplained reasons, everybody else had only one ethnicity: NonHispanic.)
     
    This ridiculous nonsense of having the one "ethnicity" in the US be "Hispanic" is something Trump should have fixed.

    Have a race category. Whites, Blacks, Native Americans, Orientals, Polynesians and include the obvious Mestizo and Mulatto mixes so you give the Mexicans (and Puerto Ricans) something explict to write down. One can make arguments about whether you have a broad "Caucasian" category or have "European", "middle-Eastern", "South Asian".

    Then have an ethnic category, where people can do their sorting. Mostly this reduces to "national orgin" of ancestors, but you also have particulars like Jewish, Scots-Irish, French-Canadian. You could have a generic "American"--or not.

    Then go ahead and ask the "national origin of ancestors" queston.

    Then ask the religion question. (You could throw in a "believing" vs. "team" question.)

    The effect of these changes would be primarily to give a more accurate picture, but also to break up some of the anti-white coalition building--"Asian"--and to ferret out some of the more two-faced have it both ways behavior from white "Hispanics" and Jews.

    You may be right about the census bureau, but in generic American usage there are many hyphenated ethnicities. Afriean-, Asian-, Hispanic-, etc.

    But Euro-American or white American is not one of them. In fact, I’ve had extended discussions (on conservative sites!) with those who contend that I don’t have an ethnicity.

    One lady was very proud of her Polish ethnicity, her parents having fled Communism.

    So I asked her what she’d consider my ethnicity to be, since my ancestry is split up among half a dozen NW Euro countries. I suggested American or white American, since I have zero emotional attachment to any of my ancestors’ homelands and it seems really stupid to just pick one.

    Her reply was that “American” is not an ethnicity and for me to use it as such implies that only white Americans like me are “really” Americans, therefore the usage would be racist. “White American” and “Euro-American” are unacceptable for similar reasons.

    So her final judgment was that people like me, uniquely in the world, do not have and cannot have an ethnicity.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Lex
    If Americans switched to Navajo I think there would be little doubt that American ethnicity exists.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  84. @biz
    I've said it here before, but some reasons that Native Americans are on the outs with the woke set include:

    - They live in boring, dusty, flyover places
    - They are getting rich off of casinos
    - They tend to be quiet and stoic rather than braggadocious and flamboyant
    - None of them are Muslim

    They haven’t been kicked out of the coalition, they’re simply being ignored.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  85. Omenaa Mensah – Polish.
    CB Cebulski – not Polish.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  86. @Logan
    You may be right about the census bureau, but in generic American usage there are many hyphenated ethnicities. Afriean-, Asian-, Hispanic-, etc.

    But Euro-American or white American is not one of them. In fact, I've had extended discussions (on conservative sites!) with those who contend that I don't have an ethnicity.

    One lady was very proud of her Polish ethnicity, her parents having fled Communism.

    So I asked her what she'd consider my ethnicity to be, since my ancestry is split up among half a dozen NW Euro countries. I suggested American or white American, since I have zero emotional attachment to any of my ancestors' homelands and it seems really stupid to just pick one.

    Her reply was that "American" is not an ethnicity and for me to use it as such implies that only white Americans like me are "really" Americans, therefore the usage would be racist. "White American" and "Euro-American" are unacceptable for similar reasons.

    So her final judgment was that people like me, uniquely in the world, do not have and cannot have an ethnicity.

    If Americans switched to Navajo I think there would be little doubt that American ethnicity exists.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments

Comments are closed.

Subscribe to All Steve Sailer Comments via RSS
PastClassics
The major media overlooked Communist spies and Madoff’s fraud. What are they missing today?
The “war hero” candidate buried information about POWs left behind in Vietnam.
What Was John McCain's True Wartime Record in Vietnam?
The evidence is clear — but often ignored