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From the New York Times:

Proud to Live in a Nation of Holers
Bret Stephens JAN. 12, 2018

As tourist destinations go, the Republic of Moldova — tucked between Ukraine and Romania — probably isn’t on anyone’s bucket list. It’s the poorest country in Europe, with per capita G.D.P. barely exceeding Sudan’s. Sex trafficking and organized crime are rampant. My memories of the place, from a visit 17 years ago, include roads that vanished into deep snow, Transnistrian border guards in Soviet uniforms, and an impoverished Holocaust survivor’s tale of a bleak life under Romanian, German and Soviet tyrants.

Let’s not mince words: Moldova is a hole. Modify with any four letters you wish.

I mention Moldova because it’s where my paternal grandfather was born in 1901. An anti-Semitic rampage in his hometown, Kishinev, soon forced his family to leave for New York, where my great-grandfather labored as a carpenter in the Brooklyn Navy Yard for eight dollars a week. …

 
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  1. Stupid-sounding name, too, in English. What was wrong with Moldavia?

    What’s their tourist slogan? “I was bowled over by Moldover”?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Romanian
    It is the trend of using the local name in lieu of the appropriate version in your own language. Moldova is what it is called in the Romanian language. May be a sign of snobbery to use it that way, like English speakers saying that they are going to Mejico instead of Mexico or to Ciudad de Mexico instead of Mexico City.
    , @Peter Akuleyev
    I know. What was wrong with Bessarabia? That is actually a much cooler name in English, and doesn't remind you of "mold". That country needs some marketing help. Almost as stupid as Ukrainians insisting on the incredible ugly and nonsensical in English "Kyiv".
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  2. syonredux says:

    Let’s not mince words: Moldova is a hole. Modify with any four letters you wish.

    I mention Moldova because it’s where my paternal grandfather was born in 1901. An anti-Semitic rampage in his hometown, Kishinev, soon forced his family to leave for New York, where my great-grandfather labored as a carpenter in the Brooklyn Navy Yard for eight dollars a week. …

    Let’s get real; I don’t really care about a bunch of Blacks in Haiti. It’s just that I can only view immigration through a filiopietistic lens….

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    "Well, no," they reply, "I just wouldn't want to selfishly deny Haitians the opportunities my ancestors had."

    Immigration has no cure.

    , @istevefan

    I can only view immigration through a filiopietistic lens….
     
    Hasn't Steve written that white guilt is liking your ancestors too much, while Jewish guilt is liking them too little?
    , @415 reasons
    I am the grandson and great-grandson of immigrants but I don’t find any cognitive dissonance in saying that this 50 year cycle of open borders should be shut down. Do people really not see that the future without a drastic change in course is Brazil? I.e. a massive bifurcation of society until the lower class living standards equilibrate with the third world? Sure all 7 billion won’t come here... they come here til we hit an equilibrium for the newcomers where it’s just as attractive to stay home as to come. Might only take another decade or two.
    , @Anonymouse
    My father worked at the Brooklyn Navy Yard before WW II. What he did there I have no idea.

    Recently entertained a youngish man of Phillipino descent - so he said - whose well-to-do wife had given him the boot. According to him, his grandfather worked at the Brooklyn Navy Yard.

    What is it about the iconic Brooklyn Navy Yard? These days I understand the site is used for Internet start-ups and other dreamed-up projects.
    , @Anonymous

    BRET STEPHENS: I mention Moldova because it’s where my paternal grandfather was born in 1901. An anti-Semitic rampage in his hometown, Kishinev, soon forced his family to leave for New York,
     
    Here is a more recent snapshot of the situation is Kishinev, from the 1970s.

    [Israeli Defense Minister Avigdor] Lieberman attributes his forthright personality to his youth in the large Jewish community of 1970s Kishinev, saying: "Jews were 25 percent of the population of Kishinev [during the 1970s]... We were more affluent, better educated, and we showed it... The Jews of Moldova have this no-nonsense streak."[4]

     

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avigdor_Lieberman
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  3. Let me get this straight. Mr. Stephens is proud to live in this country when it’s full of people from shitholes. I thought multiculturalism meant that these holers should be proud of the shitholes they came from and want to spread each of the many ideas of what a true shithole is throughout America. Our country will then become swiss cheese of shitholes, but what new lands will we all run to then?

    Don’t tell us what we should be proud of, Bret Stephens. From reading iSteve, I’ve been just getting sick of your hole shitholier-than-thou attitude lately!

    BTW, even if Bret’s Dad had been 30 or so, $8/day was pretty good money back then.

    Read More
    • Replies: @John Derbyshire
    >shitholier-than-thou

    That's very good. Shall plagiarize.
    , @a reader

    BTW, even if Bret’s Dad had been 30 or so, $8/day was pretty good money back then.
     
    Sure, but he says eight dollars a week.

    Anyway, I would not trust a single word of what Mr. Stephens tells about his ancestors.
    , @Jack D
    He said $8 per WEEK, not day.

    In 1900, the US average wage was $450 per year, so $8/week was ballpark. An unskilled Negro laborer would have made as little as $3/week - $8 was a wage for a skilled tradesman.

    $8 is equivalent to $160/week in today's $. Of course there was no state or federal income tax so the takehome would have been the full amount. If you are making minimum wage today, by the time they take out various deductions and you pay even more taxes when you buy something, your net buying power is probably not much more than $160. The US in 1900 was a poorer country than today but $8/week would have been enough to buy the basics. Beef was 6 cents/lb. , a gallon of milk cost a dime, a loaf of bread was a nickel. Some things were relatively more expensive than today. They hadn't made the big breakthru in mass poultry raising so a dozen eggs was a quarter ($5.00 in our money) and chicken was $.13/lb. (twice as much as beef).
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  4. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @syonredux

    Let’s not mince words: Moldova is a hole. Modify with any four letters you wish.

    I mention Moldova because it’s where my paternal grandfather was born in 1901. An anti-Semitic rampage in his hometown, Kishinev, soon forced his family to leave for New York, where my great-grandfather labored as a carpenter in the Brooklyn Navy Yard for eight dollars a week. …
     
    Let's get real; I don't really care about a bunch of Blacks in Haiti. It's just that I can only view immigration through a filiopietistic lens....

    “Well, no,” they reply, “I just wouldn’t want to selfishly deny Haitians the opportunities my ancestors had.”

    Immigration has no cure.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    NYT Pick comment:

    AA NY
    My grandparents and great grandparents came from Naples, Italy around 1900 when that "hole" was said to produce dirty, sneaky, criminally inclined immigrants. They were, to use the racist parlance of the day, "greaseballs."

    What is sad to me is that many of the people I know who still, amazingly, support Trump, have family backgrounds like mine. And these third generation "greaseballs", "micks" and "polaks" forget where they came from and what was said about their ancestors.

    Trump and his supporters truly do not get it. If 100 years from now the entire nation is a beautiful combination of brown and black and yellow, but still guided by the entire constitution and all of its ideals then the United States will continue to be the beacon of the world. If, on the other hand, 100 years from now the nation is ruled by a white elite that has closed its borders and trampled on the ideals of the 1st and 14th and many other amendments, then we will be a second rate nation with nothing to offer a hot divided world. What a s***hole place that will be.

    I'm still betting on the former.
    257 Recommend
     
    , @Antlitz Grollheim
    The time dimension to "Who We Are" is intriguing. As the Narrative becomes ever more an eternal present, it seems We were always people who let in wreckers and ingrates.

    If only analysing Talmudry evaporated it...
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  5. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous
    "Well, no," they reply, "I just wouldn't want to selfishly deny Haitians the opportunities my ancestors had."

    Immigration has no cure.

    NYT Pick comment:

    AA NY
    My grandparents and great grandparents came from Naples, Italy around 1900 when that “hole” was said to produce dirty, sneaky, criminally inclined immigrants. They were, to use the racist parlance of the day, “greaseballs.”

    What is sad to me is that many of the people I know who still, amazingly, support Trump, have family backgrounds like mine. And these third generation “greaseballs”, “micks” and “polaks” forget where they came from and what was said about their ancestors.

    Trump and his supporters truly do not get it. If 100 years from now the entire nation is a beautiful combination of brown and black and yellow, but still guided by the entire constitution and all of its ideals then the United States will continue to be the beacon of the world. If, on the other hand, 100 years from now the nation is ruled by a white elite that has closed its borders and trampled on the ideals of the 1st and 14th and many other amendments, then we will be a second rate nation with nothing to offer a hot divided world. What a s***hole place that will be.

    I’m still betting on the former.
    257 Recommend

    Read More
    • Replies: @syonredux

    My grandparents and great grandparents came from Naples, Italy around 1900 when that “hole” was said to produce dirty, sneaky, criminally inclined immigrants. They were, to use the racist parlance of the day, “greaseballs.”

    What is sad to me is that many of the people I know who still, amazingly, support Trump, have family backgrounds like mine. And these third generation “greaseballs”, “micks” and “polaks” forget where they came from and what was said about their ancestors.
     
    It's moronic comments like this that make me wish that America had closed her doors to immigration from, say, 1800 on.
    , @anon

    If 100 years from now the entire nation is a beautiful combination of brown and black and yellow, but still guided by the entire constitution and all of its ideals then the United States will continue to be the beacon of the world.
     
    That's why Liberia is the beacon of the world.


    If, on the other hand, 100 years from now the nation is ruled by a white elite that has closed its borders and trampled on the ideals of the 1st and 14th and many other amendments,
     
    I wonder if this woman (and I am sure that it is a woman) is aware that whites are the only ones who actually give a crap about the First Amendment.

    Actually, I don't. She is clearly a New York Times reader, so how would she ever learn something like that?
    , @Corn
    “My grandparents and great grandparents came from Naples, Italy around 1900 when that “hole” was said to produce dirty, sneaky, criminally inclined immigrants. They were, to use the racist parlance of the day, “greaseballs.””

    Don’t mention the afia-may.

    “If 100 years from now the entire nation is a beautiful combination of brown and black and yellow, but still guided by the constitution “

    Couldn’t help but notice no room for white in there.
    , @Gunner
    I am pretty sure AA NY’s family is blisteringly non-interracial.
    , @3g4me
    @5 Anonymous: NYT Pick Comment "My grandparents and great grandparents came from Naples, Italy around 1900 when that “hole” was said to produce dirty, sneaky, criminally inclined immigrants. They were, to use the racist parlance of the day, “greaseballs.”

    My husband's four maternal great-grandparents immigrated from Campania in the mid 1880s. While they settled in New Jersey, numerous relatives and friends from one particular commune landed elsewhere around the country (the son of one such immigrant family essentially ran away from home the day he turned 18 and went to the Klondike with the gold rush; he died in Alaska in the mid 1960s). After extensively tracing literally thousands of such immigrants and reading hundreds of newspaper articles from about 1895 onwards, my overall impression is that the Italians were the Mexicans of their day.

    They procreated extensively, were often heedless of their offsprings' antics (running away and hiding in strangers' barns, riding the trains, shoplifting, starting deadly fires in their tenements), were renowned for uncontrolled grudges and passions (lots of reports of knife fights and feuding in the Italian quarter) and assimilated only gradually over the years as forced by law, custom, and/or via intermarriage. The vast majority were not even small craftsmen (my husband's one shoemaker great-grandfather was an exception) but manual laborers - hod carriers, tunnel diggers, road construction, etc. Many of them traveled back and forth between the U.S. and Italy repeatedly (visit a cousin in NY to work for a few years and go home, then stay with a brother-in-law in Chicago for a few years and go home, etc.).

    They did not come for "freedom" and "democracy." They came for purely economic reasons (the wife of one distant relative was interviewed by the Ellis Island Project; she stated quite frankly that her father much preferred working set hours in the factory to struggling on a small, remote, hilltop farm and her mother never wanted to leave Italy). I've documented a number of immigrants who became labor agitators, others who became explicitly ethnic city politicians, etc. While the vast majority didn't seem to do explicit harm to America, neither did they bestow awesome benefits on their new country. By the 1940s they were the urban equivalent of dated farm equipment.

    While they were never considered non-White, neither were they considered "Americans." Some of their children and most of their grandchildren were, as they intermarried , moved away from their ethnic enclaves, became educated professionals, etc. They (and all the other post 1880 immigrants) certainly changed America at least as much as it changed them. "Assimilation," or what I'd more accurately term semi-nationality by adoption, is a two way street, and many of the earlier Americans were legitimately dubious at the invasion and eventual dominance of their neighborhoods and towns by thousands of foreigners from all corners of the globe. The only saving grace is that the vast majority were White, European Christians, with just enough of a religious and racial and cultural component in common to very, very gradually turn peasants into hyphenated Americans.

    As demonstrated by that odious NYT comment, many of them remain hyphenated Americans to this day, idolizing their not-particularly exceptional ancestors as all exclusively hard working, honest, and sober people (they weren't). They retain aggrieved that they were rightfully resented for taking over and remaking parts of America more in their own image. They expect eternal gratitude for their unexceptional and miniscule part of the American experience (muh grandfather/uncles/cousins fought the evil notsees in WWII!).

    America, on the whole, didn't truly "need" them and would have done fine without them. Most of them should have been denied entry. The rest need to shut up (unless to express gratitude for being allowed in) and work on learning real history as opposed to the sainted immigrant narrative, and ponder what it really means to be an "American" - with NO HYPHEN - and then devote their lives to becoming the best damn facsimile they can manage. Otherwise, they need to go back.
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  6. syonredux says:

    Yet that’s beside the point. We are not talking about Haiti, El Salvador, Nigeria or any other country on the president’s insult list. What counts are the people from these countries, both those who are already in the United States as well as those who wish to come. Why should the president think they are any less fit to become Americans than the Norwegians he seems to fancy?

    I mean, besides their IQ scores, the historically low economic performance of the Haitian-American community, their poor median GPA, etc, etc

    The obvious answer is racism, the same “textbook” case that Paul Ryan spoke of in June 2016 after Trump called a federal judge’s fitness into question on account of his ethnic heritage.

    Look, Haitians and Koreans are identical, OK?

    But immigrants are more likely to be fleeing those dysfunctions and prejudices than they are to be bringing them — just ask Dorsa Derakhshani, the international chess master from Iran who came to the United States last year because, as she wrote in an op-ed for The Times, the mullahs “cared more about the scarf covering my hair than the brain under it.”

    How many Haitian international chess masters are there? And what percentage of Haitian immigrants to the US do they comprise?And how many of them look like Dorsa Derakhshani?

    Vietnamese boat people did not bring fratricidal hatreds with them to America.

    Um, see, the USA has lots of Black people…and they tend to feel a tad antagonistic towards White people….and Haitians tend to share that hostility…..

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1804_Haiti_massacre

    Soviet refuseniks did not bring a Soviet work ethic.

    You’re gonna have to work really hard to make people think that Haitians are like Ashkenazi Jews….

    This should go without saying, except that the age of Trump is also the age in which restatements of the obvious have become necessary for civilization.

    Like how all immigrants are exactly alike…..

    They don’t undermine American culture. They feed, enrich and reinvent it,

    Yeah, I mean just look at all the ways in which Haitians have enriched American culture….

    not least through their educational ambitions for themselves and their children.

    The link that he has here is really amazing. See, all six of the USA’s 2016 Nobel Laureates were immigrants….of course, none of them were Black or Latinx immigrants…but that doesn’t matter. Repeat after me: ALL IMMIGRANTS ARE THE SAME.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/12/opinion/proud-nation-of-holers.html

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Since this is all obvious nonsense and Stephens must know it...

    But immigrants are more likely to be fleeing those dysfunctions and prejudices than they are to be bringing them — just ask Dorsa Derakhshani, the international chess master from Iran who came to the United States last year because, as she wrote in an op-ed for The Times, the mullahs “cared more about the scarf covering my hair than the brain under it.”
     
    (And just ask Bret Stephens, who definitely isn't not endearing himself to the legacy majority population.)

    ... what's the end-game here?

    Jews like Stephens will only feel safe when everyone around him has as little connection to the soil as he does?

    He'll never be made to feel unwelcome -- for, say, spilling American blood in the service of ethnic cohort's all the way over in the Middle East -- when everyone tells the same immigrant story he does?

    , @Anonymous

    The link that he has here is really amazing. See, all six of the USA’s 2016 Nobel Laureates were immigrants….of course, none of them were Black or Latinx immigrants…but that doesn’t matter. Repeat after me: ALL IMMIGRANTS ARE THE SAME.
     
    Like another one of Stephens' articles, where he talks about the crime rate of immigrants versus natives -- eliding mention of a certain subgroup that punches above its weight.

    He gets a lot of mileage out of the race-realism taboo, quite knowingly I would think. Compare and contrast Stephens on Haitians when they aren't being used as a prop for his ethnocentric narrative:


    ... while conservatives such as Mark Steyn chortle that “nobody voluntarily moves to Haiti.” Which, let’s be real, is basically right.

    Yet that’s beside the point. We are not talking about Haiti, El Salvador, Nigeria or any other country on the president’s insult list. What counts are the people from these countries, both those who are already in the United States as well as those who wish to come.
     

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748703779704576073593183855836

    Criminality is rampant, and Haiti ranked 177th out of 179 on Transparency International's 2008 corruption index. These are not the depredations of greedy foreign interlopers. This is the depravity of the locals.

    Put simply, Haiti has run out of excuses for its failures at the very moment the "international community" has run out of ideas about how to help.

    ... The colonialists of yore may often have been bigots, but they were also, just as often, doers. Their colonies were better places than the shipwrecked countries we have today.
     

    This is probably how Stephens feels about Trumpers putting a roadblock in front of his march towards an All-Immigrant American Story:

    That’s not enough. So long as an Arab athlete can’t pay his Israeli opposite the courtesy of a handshake, the disease of the Arab mind and the misfortunes of its world will continue. For Israel, this is a pity. For the Arabs, it’s a calamity. The hater always suffers more than the object of his hatred.
     
    The cure for us is to just... go away... quietly...
    , @anon

    But immigrants are more likely to be fleeing those dysfunctions and prejudices than they are to be bringing them
     
    They just keep telling us this. Do these assholes think we don't get the news from Europe around here? Because that was literally the exact thing they said when all the "refugees" started swarming in. Now even the Europeans admit that it's not true.

    It never ends with these people...
    , @slumber_j
    You need to reassess your thinking. After all, there's for example Haitian-American Jean-Michel Basquiat's record-holding painting:

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&ved=0ahUKEwiIjJXQ4NbYAhUXzWMKHQmaAJQQjRwIBw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.telegraph.co.uk%2Fnews%2F2017%2F05%2F19%2Fbasquiatpainting-fetches-record-1105-million-new-york-auction%2F&psig=AOvVaw1pYdItsOcZTgMlG24ZXLYe&ust=1515995269073103

    Sadly, his long-ago drug overdose renders Mr. Basquiat himself unavailable as an example of Haitian-American excellence. But art is eternal!
    , @anon

    just ask Dorsa Derakhshani, the international chess master from Iran who came to the United States last year because, as she wrote in an op-ed for The Times, the mullahs “cared more about the scarf covering my hair than the brain under it.”
     
    It's sort of hard to blame the mullahs for that when your brain is apparently only useful for moving pieces of plastic around on a board, to play a game that computers have already figured out.

    But the mullahs apparently didn't do much to stop her, either, considering that I doubt she just became an international chess master within the past year.
    , @Triumph104
    Joshua Colas is an Haitian-American chess master. He is attending Webster University on a chess scholarship, coach by Susan Polgar. With perhaps the exception of Somalis, all black immigrant groups outperform native US blacks.

    As for women, not one American chess International Master or Grandmaster has been born in the United States. They are all immigrants with Dorsa Derakhshani from Iran soon joining them.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_female_chess_players
    , @SMK
    North Korea is a hell-hole, the worst hell-hole on earth in regard to privacy and freedom, because it's ruled by an evil and sadistic regine of communist fanatics and totalitarians led by a half-insane monster and buffoon. If the regime was overthrown, North Korea would join the south and soon became just as free and livable and prosperous. Haiti is a hell-hole because the average IQ of it's people is 67. And so, too, with the nations and cultures of Sub-Saharan Africa. And so, too, Detroit, St. Louis, Baltimore. etc.Every nation and city ruled by blacks is a hell-hole and always will be so.
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  7. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @syonredux

    Yet that’s beside the point. We are not talking about Haiti, El Salvador, Nigeria or any other country on the president’s insult list. What counts are the people from these countries, both those who are already in the United States as well as those who wish to come. Why should the president think they are any less fit to become Americans than the Norwegians he seems to fancy?
     
    I mean, besides their IQ scores, the historically low economic performance of the Haitian-American community, their poor median GPA, etc, etc

    The obvious answer is racism, the same “textbook” case that Paul Ryan spoke of in June 2016 after Trump called a federal judge’s fitness into question on account of his ethnic heritage.
     
    Look, Haitians and Koreans are identical, OK?

    But immigrants are more likely to be fleeing those dysfunctions and prejudices than they are to be bringing them — just ask Dorsa Derakhshani, the international chess master from Iran who came to the United States last year because, as she wrote in an op-ed for The Times, the mullahs “cared more about the scarf covering my hair than the brain under it.”
     
    How many Haitian international chess masters are there? And what percentage of Haitian immigrants to the US do they comprise?And how many of them look like Dorsa Derakhshani?



    http://d279m997dpfwgl.cloudfront.net/wp/2017/09/0930_oag-dorsa-1000x667.jpg

    Vietnamese boat people did not bring fratricidal hatreds with them to America.
     
    Um, see, the USA has lots of Black people...and they tend to feel a tad antagonistic towards White people....and Haitians tend to share that hostility.....


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1804_Haiti_massacre

    Soviet refuseniks did not bring a Soviet work ethic.

     

    You're gonna have to work really hard to make people think that Haitians are like Ashkenazi Jews....

    This should go without saying, except that the age of Trump is also the age in which restatements of the obvious have become necessary for civilization.

     

    Like how all immigrants are exactly alike.....

    They don’t undermine American culture. They feed, enrich and reinvent it,
     
    Yeah, I mean just look at all the ways in which Haitians have enriched American culture....

    not least through their educational ambitions for themselves and their children.
     
    The link that he has here is really amazing. See, all six of the USA's 2016 Nobel Laureates were immigrants....of course, none of them were Black or Latinx immigrants...but that doesn't matter. Repeat after me: ALL IMMIGRANTS ARE THE SAME.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/12/opinion/proud-nation-of-holers.html

    Since this is all obvious nonsense and Stephens must know it…

    But immigrants are more likely to be fleeing those dysfunctions and prejudices than they are to be bringing them — just ask Dorsa Derakhshani, the international chess master from Iran who came to the United States last year because, as she wrote in an op-ed for The Times, the mullahs “cared more about the scarf covering my hair than the brain under it.”

    (And just ask Bret Stephens, who definitely isn’t not endearing himself to the legacy majority population.)

    … what’s the end-game here?

    Jews like Stephens will only feel safe when everyone around him has as little connection to the soil as he does?

    He’ll never be made to feel unwelcome — for, say, spilling American blood in the service of ethnic cohort’s all the way over in the Middle East — when everyone tells the same immigrant story he does?

    Read More
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  8. Jews need to follow their own psychotherapists’ advice and get over themselves.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Je Suis Charlie Martel
    The reaction is going to be ugly.
    And it will not be unprecedented.
    But they don’t seem to learn.
    The reactions stem from their irrational behavior to prevent the reaction they provoke
    , @Joe Walker
    And preferably move to Israel.
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  9. One of the more pathetic aspects of contemporary political rhetoric is its failure to meet standards of persuasive argument most of us learned when we transitioned from crying infants to wheedling toddlers.

    The comments on articles like this and in Twitter debates are absolutely stuffed to the brim with variations of, “You oppose illegal immigrants from Mexico demanding free bilingual healthcare? Hmmm, I guess you didn’t know *my* own mother is one of those illegal immigrants who never learned English and depends on the welfare state. How stupid do you feel now?”

    Errm, well, not at all. Unfortunately, when we Anglo men respond to such absurdly naked appeals to self-interest by saying nothing, in a gallant attempt to avoid acknowledging their humiliating failure to engage in rational discourse, they take our silence as embarrassment in our own stated view.

    It’s facially retarded nonsense from your average low-IQ interlocutor and ostentatiously obnoxious chutzpah from smarter, more sophisticated intellectuals (though, as Steve has noted, a few generations in and even the Jews stop being in on the joke of their grandparents’ droll feint of naively explicit solipsism).

    To the disinterested observer of rhetoric this most common tack is so spectacular a catastrophe as to beggar belief. Could a sane adult of intellectual maturity even conceive of such an approach?

    Imagine an English gentleman of a few centuries ago having a reasoned debate with a sincere opponent of aristocratic privilege in the political sphere. At some point our Tory partisan offers what he considers his ace in the hole, a dispositive climax, a triumphant coup de grace: “Yes, but I suppose you did not know that the entire time we were debating this, *my own father*, the Duke of Piddlington, was exercising his aristocratic rights in the House of Lords, warming the very seat that I will inherit for my own self. How foolish must you feel now, having opposed the legitimacy of aristocratic power! I will graciously accept your apology for daring to question that which benefits and comforts me.”

    In a civilized society one is obliged to offer better reasons for his position than “because I want it this way.” Only babies and tyrants dare offer nought but demands.

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    • Replies: @Antlitz Grollheim

    (though, as Steve has noted, a few generations in and even the Jews stop being in on the joke of their grandparents’ droll feint of naively explicit solipsism)
     
    One really has to wonder, given the seemly effortless ability to engage in it, rather than a feint, it's a component of the firmware...
    , @Dave Pinsen
    Twitter put together a "moment" of immigrants responding to Trump's alleged "shithole countries" comments. A few of them, like this one, thought their hypothetical future accomplishments were sufficient to refute Trump.

    https://twitter.com/Guyefurula/status/951656808107651074
    , @Desiderius

    In a civilized society one is obliged to offer better reasons for his position than “because I want it this way.”
     
    Looks like that's not what we have then.

    Only babies and tyrants dare offer nought but demands.
     
    You're getting warmer.
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  10. anon • Disclaimer says:

    So, if I understand this correctly, we should let in people from shithole countries, so that their children can grow up and have careers lecturing us and demanding that we bring even more people from even more shitholes, for the rest of eternity. And that isn’t the kind of opportunity you want to pass up, apparently.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Joe, Averaged
    You got it, bucko
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  11. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @syonredux

    Yet that’s beside the point. We are not talking about Haiti, El Salvador, Nigeria or any other country on the president’s insult list. What counts are the people from these countries, both those who are already in the United States as well as those who wish to come. Why should the president think they are any less fit to become Americans than the Norwegians he seems to fancy?
     
    I mean, besides their IQ scores, the historically low economic performance of the Haitian-American community, their poor median GPA, etc, etc

    The obvious answer is racism, the same “textbook” case that Paul Ryan spoke of in June 2016 after Trump called a federal judge’s fitness into question on account of his ethnic heritage.
     
    Look, Haitians and Koreans are identical, OK?

    But immigrants are more likely to be fleeing those dysfunctions and prejudices than they are to be bringing them — just ask Dorsa Derakhshani, the international chess master from Iran who came to the United States last year because, as she wrote in an op-ed for The Times, the mullahs “cared more about the scarf covering my hair than the brain under it.”
     
    How many Haitian international chess masters are there? And what percentage of Haitian immigrants to the US do they comprise?And how many of them look like Dorsa Derakhshani?



    http://d279m997dpfwgl.cloudfront.net/wp/2017/09/0930_oag-dorsa-1000x667.jpg

    Vietnamese boat people did not bring fratricidal hatreds with them to America.
     
    Um, see, the USA has lots of Black people...and they tend to feel a tad antagonistic towards White people....and Haitians tend to share that hostility.....


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1804_Haiti_massacre

    Soviet refuseniks did not bring a Soviet work ethic.

     

    You're gonna have to work really hard to make people think that Haitians are like Ashkenazi Jews....

    This should go without saying, except that the age of Trump is also the age in which restatements of the obvious have become necessary for civilization.

     

    Like how all immigrants are exactly alike.....

    They don’t undermine American culture. They feed, enrich and reinvent it,
     
    Yeah, I mean just look at all the ways in which Haitians have enriched American culture....

    not least through their educational ambitions for themselves and their children.
     
    The link that he has here is really amazing. See, all six of the USA's 2016 Nobel Laureates were immigrants....of course, none of them were Black or Latinx immigrants...but that doesn't matter. Repeat after me: ALL IMMIGRANTS ARE THE SAME.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/12/opinion/proud-nation-of-holers.html

    The link that he has here is really amazing. See, all six of the USA’s 2016 Nobel Laureates were immigrants….of course, none of them were Black or Latinx immigrants…but that doesn’t matter. Repeat after me: ALL IMMIGRANTS ARE THE SAME.

    Like another one of Stephens’ articles, where he talks about the crime rate of immigrants versus natives — eliding mention of a certain subgroup that punches above its weight.

    He gets a lot of mileage out of the race-realism taboo, quite knowingly I would think. Compare and contrast Stephens on Haitians when they aren’t being used as a prop for his ethnocentric narrative:

    … while conservatives such as Mark Steyn chortle that “nobody voluntarily moves to Haiti.” Which, let’s be real, is basically right.

    Yet that’s beside the point. We are not talking about Haiti, El Salvador, Nigeria or any other country on the president’s insult list. What counts are the people from these countries, both those who are already in the United States as well as those who wish to come.

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748703779704576073593183855836

    Criminality is rampant, and Haiti ranked 177th out of 179 on Transparency International’s 2008 corruption index. These are not the depredations of greedy foreign interlopers. This is the depravity of the locals.

    Put simply, Haiti has run out of excuses for its failures at the very moment the “international community” has run out of ideas about how to help.

    … The colonialists of yore may often have been bigots, but they were also, just as often, doers. Their colonies were better places than the shipwrecked countries we have today.

    This is probably how Stephens feels about Trumpers putting a roadblock in front of his march towards an All-Immigrant American Story:

    That’s not enough. So long as an Arab athlete can’t pay his Israeli opposite the courtesy of a handshake, the disease of the Arab mind and the misfortunes of its world will continue. For Israel, this is a pity. For the Arabs, it’s a calamity. The hater always suffers more than the object of his hatred.

    The cure for us is to just… go away… quietly…

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  12. Thomas says:

    This whole thing is so dispiritingly stupid. A competent PR “war room” could easily turn this thing back (my mock take: Trump was talking about TPS, whose literal criteria is that sending countries are in fact shitholes, that doesn’t fit with his vision of merit-based immigration, he used language saltier than he needed to, and Dirty Dick Durbin, in bad faith, threw away negotiations by leaking it). But Trump doesn’t have that. He has his Twitter account. So he’s getting painted one stroke at a time as the second coming of Bull Connor, by Republicans as well as Democrats.

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  13. anon • Disclaimer says:
    @syonredux

    Yet that’s beside the point. We are not talking about Haiti, El Salvador, Nigeria or any other country on the president’s insult list. What counts are the people from these countries, both those who are already in the United States as well as those who wish to come. Why should the president think they are any less fit to become Americans than the Norwegians he seems to fancy?
     
    I mean, besides their IQ scores, the historically low economic performance of the Haitian-American community, their poor median GPA, etc, etc

    The obvious answer is racism, the same “textbook” case that Paul Ryan spoke of in June 2016 after Trump called a federal judge’s fitness into question on account of his ethnic heritage.
     
    Look, Haitians and Koreans are identical, OK?

    But immigrants are more likely to be fleeing those dysfunctions and prejudices than they are to be bringing them — just ask Dorsa Derakhshani, the international chess master from Iran who came to the United States last year because, as she wrote in an op-ed for The Times, the mullahs “cared more about the scarf covering my hair than the brain under it.”
     
    How many Haitian international chess masters are there? And what percentage of Haitian immigrants to the US do they comprise?And how many of them look like Dorsa Derakhshani?



    http://d279m997dpfwgl.cloudfront.net/wp/2017/09/0930_oag-dorsa-1000x667.jpg

    Vietnamese boat people did not bring fratricidal hatreds with them to America.
     
    Um, see, the USA has lots of Black people...and they tend to feel a tad antagonistic towards White people....and Haitians tend to share that hostility.....


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1804_Haiti_massacre

    Soviet refuseniks did not bring a Soviet work ethic.

     

    You're gonna have to work really hard to make people think that Haitians are like Ashkenazi Jews....

    This should go without saying, except that the age of Trump is also the age in which restatements of the obvious have become necessary for civilization.

     

    Like how all immigrants are exactly alike.....

    They don’t undermine American culture. They feed, enrich and reinvent it,
     
    Yeah, I mean just look at all the ways in which Haitians have enriched American culture....

    not least through their educational ambitions for themselves and their children.
     
    The link that he has here is really amazing. See, all six of the USA's 2016 Nobel Laureates were immigrants....of course, none of them were Black or Latinx immigrants...but that doesn't matter. Repeat after me: ALL IMMIGRANTS ARE THE SAME.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/12/opinion/proud-nation-of-holers.html

    But immigrants are more likely to be fleeing those dysfunctions and prejudices than they are to be bringing them

    They just keep telling us this. Do these assholes think we don’t get the news from Europe around here? Because that was literally the exact thing they said when all the “refugees” started swarming in. Now even the Europeans admit that it’s not true.

    It never ends with these people…

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    • Replies: @wrd9
    Stephen's statement is comprised of weasel words. "More likely". There is absolutely no evidence of that and plenty to support the opposite. At least for those from corrupt countries. More than 80% of Dominicans are on welfare in the US and, in Lawrence, MA, they made it one of the auto insurance fraud capitals at one time. Dominicans in NYC fill up plastic barrels with EBT bought food to ship it to the DR to resell. There are many Dominican drug dealers who commit identity fraud and access welfare. Many other immigrant groups engage in fraud and other crimes like Cubans.

    Here's Nigeria's president commenting on his citizens.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/nigeria/12143510/Nigerians-reputation-for-crime-has-made-them-unwelcome-in-Britain-says-countrys-president.html

    The reality is that too many of these immigrants bring their corrupt culture with them and have no problems keeping it. There should be blacklists of countries.
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  14. Where did Ron Unz’s grandparents come from? Is he a holer? Sailer’s-were they all already here?

    Read More
    • Replies: @syonredux

    Where did Ron Unz’s grandparents come from? Is he a holer? Sailer’s-were they all already here?
     
    My Dad's are from England and Scotland (18th century). My Mom's father was a German-speaking Ashkenazi from Latvia. Was '30s Latvia a hole? If it was, was it as much of a hole as '30s Haiti? As Contemporary Haiti?

    And even it was, why would that mean that I have to allow immigration from Haiti?
    , @S. Anonyia
    Keep in mind just about that every country was a “hole” 100 years ago including most parts of the U.S, and some of the ones people claim were crappy such as Ireland, Italy or Poland were still probably far above the global average even if they weren’t as nice as England, France or Germany. So who we took in 100 years ago has no bearing on who we are obligated to take in today. There is no such thing as cosmic generational karma or whatever.

    For one thing there was way more room 100 years ago.

    Strangely enough some of my ancestors did come from Haiti, but way before it became a “hole,” back when it was the wealthy French colony of St. Domingue. They were merchants who fled the slave revolt, which slaughtered virtually all the French whites and most mulattoes left on the island, not just the excessively cruel plantation owners.
    , @Inquiring Mind
    Steve's post and this thread is not so much about the shame argument but whether this argument has run out of steam, whether there is a Glenn Reynold's "preference cascade" brewing to not only make the shame argument ineffective but to make it the target of invective.

    My parents were the goodpersecutedrefugeeimmigrants from 70 years ago. Owing to how the post Cold War order is shaking out, think of Mr. Putin as a badperson and think of whoever our Deep State installed to lead Ukraine as a goodperson, the goodpersecuted switch sides with the badpersecutors. Or at least what Mencius Moldbug called the Narrative viewed it that way.

    My personal tipping point started about 20 years ago when there was a big kumbaya effort to sponsor newly minted goodpersecutedrefugeeimmigrants to come into the community. Persons being my neighbors in the Old Country on an alternative Hugh Everett-quantum mechanical time line who would have liked to see me dead, only they were my neighbors in this time line.

    Oh, no, my fears were unfounded. For example, my coreligionists (entirely different ancient hatred) with the 26+6=1 bumper stickers would never shoot anyone stateside -- Momma told me they were running guns out of the social hall in the church basement so any shooting would take place back in the Old Country.

    So on shaming people of recent immigrant heritage for supporting Mr. Trump, keep it up!

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  15. slumber_j says:
    @syonredux

    Yet that’s beside the point. We are not talking about Haiti, El Salvador, Nigeria or any other country on the president’s insult list. What counts are the people from these countries, both those who are already in the United States as well as those who wish to come. Why should the president think they are any less fit to become Americans than the Norwegians he seems to fancy?
     
    I mean, besides their IQ scores, the historically low economic performance of the Haitian-American community, their poor median GPA, etc, etc

    The obvious answer is racism, the same “textbook” case that Paul Ryan spoke of in June 2016 after Trump called a federal judge’s fitness into question on account of his ethnic heritage.
     
    Look, Haitians and Koreans are identical, OK?

    But immigrants are more likely to be fleeing those dysfunctions and prejudices than they are to be bringing them — just ask Dorsa Derakhshani, the international chess master from Iran who came to the United States last year because, as she wrote in an op-ed for The Times, the mullahs “cared more about the scarf covering my hair than the brain under it.”
     
    How many Haitian international chess masters are there? And what percentage of Haitian immigrants to the US do they comprise?And how many of them look like Dorsa Derakhshani?



    http://d279m997dpfwgl.cloudfront.net/wp/2017/09/0930_oag-dorsa-1000x667.jpg

    Vietnamese boat people did not bring fratricidal hatreds with them to America.
     
    Um, see, the USA has lots of Black people...and they tend to feel a tad antagonistic towards White people....and Haitians tend to share that hostility.....


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1804_Haiti_massacre

    Soviet refuseniks did not bring a Soviet work ethic.

     

    You're gonna have to work really hard to make people think that Haitians are like Ashkenazi Jews....

    This should go without saying, except that the age of Trump is also the age in which restatements of the obvious have become necessary for civilization.

     

    Like how all immigrants are exactly alike.....

    They don’t undermine American culture. They feed, enrich and reinvent it,
     
    Yeah, I mean just look at all the ways in which Haitians have enriched American culture....

    not least through their educational ambitions for themselves and their children.
     
    The link that he has here is really amazing. See, all six of the USA's 2016 Nobel Laureates were immigrants....of course, none of them were Black or Latinx immigrants...but that doesn't matter. Repeat after me: ALL IMMIGRANTS ARE THE SAME.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/12/opinion/proud-nation-of-holers.html

    You need to reassess your thinking. After all, there’s for example Haitian-American Jean-Michel Basquiat’s record-holding painting:

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&ved=0ahUKEwiIjJXQ4NbYAhUXzWMKHQmaAJQQjRwIBw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.telegraph.co.uk%2Fnews%2F2017%2F05%2F19%2Fbasquiatpainting-fetches-record-1105-million-new-york-auction%2F&psig=AOvVaw1pYdItsOcZTgMlG24ZXLYe&ust=1515995269073103

    Sadly, his long-ago drug overdose renders Mr. Basquiat himself unavailable as an example of Haitian-American excellence. But art is eternal!

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    • Replies: @El Dato

    "Untitled" was virtually unknown before it was unveiled at Sotheby's weeks ago.
     
    ...and there are reasons for that!
    , @Anonymous
    http://robertmaier.us/2012/03/03/jean-michel-basquait-underground-artist-and-six-million-dollar-man/

    Jean-Michel Basquiat: Underground Artist and Six Million Dollar Man




    I lived and worked in downtown New York City in the early 1980s when the arts were going through big changes. Andy Warhol was rich, but at a dip in his career. Hanging out with jet set celebrities at Studio 54 and doing their portraits based on Polaroid snapshots for $50,000, he had become a sell-out to many. I bought several of his books on a remainder table in a Soho bookstore for a buck each. They were signed, which John Waters said made them so cheap—Andy signed so many things that his unsigned stuff was worth more than the signed.

    I worked with Chris Stein and Debbie Harry—and many others– on the movie, “Downtown 81,” which was mostly a documentary about the downtown underground “no wave,” music scene which sprouted from the angry, apocalyptic near-bankrupt NYC where 3-card Monty dealers and window-washing bums ruled the dirty streets, and the burned out and abandoned South Bronx appeared to be the vision of the future.

    Graffiti was the hot new art form, so had to be in the artiest movie of the time. I didn’t pay much attention to it. I wasn’t an art collector. I had bought a few things from Baltimore artists in the Waters crowd, not as an art investor, but because they were close to starving, and I had a steady job.

    Jean-Michel Basquiat was the star of Downtown 81, because he was a tireless tagger of the New York landscape with his notorious “SAMO” which was sprayed in white on countless downtown structures and vehicles. It was cheap publicity, and gained him notoriety, that held some promise of publicity for the no-budget no-wave movie producers.

     




    I was in the art world, and it was interesting to see how it worked—and still does work. I bought a painting from Basquiat after his nearly continual hounding me to be a customer. He thought I was a rich man because I had a loft in Soho (small and rented cheap through a friend), and owned expensive movie equipment. He wasn’t dumb. He knew that rich people were the ones who bought art, and should be cultivated. His art was primitive, nearly on a kindergarten level if you were unkind. Several on the movie crew had bought paintings, not from love of his talent, but to get him off their backs. To me, Jean-Michel was a greater piece of work than his paintings, and promised that if he would just get off my back, when the movie was over, I’d bring my wife up to his place and buy something.

    Chris Stein and Debbie Harry fervently promoted Basquiat. They had bought many of his works, but a successful artist needs more than one patron, and at the time they were not big, rich stars like Mick Jagger and John Lennon. They encouraged me to add to my meager collection, if only for an investment. They confided they were working on big uptown names, because the key to an artist’s success was simply to get rich and famous people to buy their work. Nothing else mattered. You could have the crappiest gallery and the worst reviews, but if Halston or Elizabeth Taylor bought one of your works, you were platinum. Those were the kinds of people Chris and Debbie were working on. It was a different level from me, but in the meantime, a couple hundred bucks would help keep Jean-Michel off the streets, and his fire burning.

    When the movie finished, my wife and I visited Basquiat’s tiny, cluttered apartment off Houston Street. I only wanted the painting which was in the movie. He was reluctant to sell, but I was spending 100 hard-earned dollars, which would probably be $1,000 today, and I had little hope of ever seeing a return. Carrying it home, I was embarrassed that someone might think I had painted it, not to mention what they’d think knowing I’d paid the equivalent of $1,000 for it.

    Soon after, Jean-Michel was scooped up by Andy Warhol as a young prodigy, and through Andy’s uptown connections he skyrocketed. At his first Soho show, I was astounded to see that Jean-Michel’s paintings sold for $2,500, less than six months after I had paid $100 for mine. I’d never made such a smart investment, and vowed to hold onto it forever.

    I moved 5 or 6 times in that period, and always trucked the painting along, mainly as a souvenir of the time and place, and figuring it might be worth a couple thousand dollars too. It was a painting/collage dotted with scraps of crayon-streaked paper stuck on while the original paint was drying. Occasionally they’d fall off and I’d randomly paste them back on with Elmer’s glue.

    When the work was, to my great surprise, appraised for $10,000, I insured it, but in the tough economic times of the late ‘80s, I felt it had reached its max value. The downtown Manhattan art scene was being replaced by yuppies, and Jean-Michel was no longer the critics’ or upper Westsider’s darling. I was also in financial hot water at the time, and decided to sell the painting through Sotheby’s in New York. It sold for close to $10,000 and after commission I netted $7,500. It got me out of debt, and my credit cards re-instated. It was a pretty slick exit from Low Budget Hell. Or so I thought.

    A portion of Jean-Michel's painting that I bought and sold-- too early, alas.

    A few weeks ago, the AP ran a story that a Basquiat similar to mine was valued at $6 million. I choked on my oatmeal. So un- fathomable, but it’s repeated in the art world every day. I look at my old friend and colleague, John Waters’ simple doctored prints of photographs that sell for $11,000 each. Is the value in the work, or in what a few wealthy (some say crazy) people and friends can afford to risk? Will Waters’ work be worth millions in thirty years? Probably. Considering who his friends are, if I had 11 grand to spare, I’d buy one tomorrow.
     
    My own experience: I never met Basquiat. I have spent a little time with Chris Stein and Debbie Harry, together and singularly. (I did own one of Chris' (former) guitars once.)


    Chris described Basquiat as being known for a terrible temper and being physically scary strengthwise. He also volunteered , unsolicited, that he was known to have a really big penis. (I didn't enquire further as to how he knew, I doubt Stein is gay so....) From the tone of his remarks, I gathered he was never easy with D being around him alone, in terms of her safety.

    There's a YouTube of the scene in the movie Downtown 81 of Harry and Basquiat but it's blocked in the US. Oh well.
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  16. anon • Disclaimer says:
    @syonredux

    Yet that’s beside the point. We are not talking about Haiti, El Salvador, Nigeria or any other country on the president’s insult list. What counts are the people from these countries, both those who are already in the United States as well as those who wish to come. Why should the president think they are any less fit to become Americans than the Norwegians he seems to fancy?
     
    I mean, besides their IQ scores, the historically low economic performance of the Haitian-American community, their poor median GPA, etc, etc

    The obvious answer is racism, the same “textbook” case that Paul Ryan spoke of in June 2016 after Trump called a federal judge’s fitness into question on account of his ethnic heritage.
     
    Look, Haitians and Koreans are identical, OK?

    But immigrants are more likely to be fleeing those dysfunctions and prejudices than they are to be bringing them — just ask Dorsa Derakhshani, the international chess master from Iran who came to the United States last year because, as she wrote in an op-ed for The Times, the mullahs “cared more about the scarf covering my hair than the brain under it.”
     
    How many Haitian international chess masters are there? And what percentage of Haitian immigrants to the US do they comprise?And how many of them look like Dorsa Derakhshani?



    http://d279m997dpfwgl.cloudfront.net/wp/2017/09/0930_oag-dorsa-1000x667.jpg

    Vietnamese boat people did not bring fratricidal hatreds with them to America.
     
    Um, see, the USA has lots of Black people...and they tend to feel a tad antagonistic towards White people....and Haitians tend to share that hostility.....


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1804_Haiti_massacre

    Soviet refuseniks did not bring a Soviet work ethic.

     

    You're gonna have to work really hard to make people think that Haitians are like Ashkenazi Jews....

    This should go without saying, except that the age of Trump is also the age in which restatements of the obvious have become necessary for civilization.

     

    Like how all immigrants are exactly alike.....

    They don’t undermine American culture. They feed, enrich and reinvent it,
     
    Yeah, I mean just look at all the ways in which Haitians have enriched American culture....

    not least through their educational ambitions for themselves and their children.
     
    The link that he has here is really amazing. See, all six of the USA's 2016 Nobel Laureates were immigrants....of course, none of them were Black or Latinx immigrants...but that doesn't matter. Repeat after me: ALL IMMIGRANTS ARE THE SAME.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/12/opinion/proud-nation-of-holers.html

    just ask Dorsa Derakhshani, the international chess master from Iran who came to the United States last year because, as she wrote in an op-ed for The Times, the mullahs “cared more about the scarf covering my hair than the brain under it.”

    It’s sort of hard to blame the mullahs for that when your brain is apparently only useful for moving pieces of plastic around on a board, to play a game that computers have already figured out.

    But the mullahs apparently didn’t do much to stop her, either, considering that I doubt she just became an international chess master within the past year.

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  17. Achilles says:

    it’s where my paternal grandfather was born in 1901. An anti-Semitic rampage in his hometown, Kishinev, soon forced his family to leave….

    Of all the terrible luck!

    The grandfather fled one anti-Semitic shit-hole only for the grandson to end up in another anti-Semitic shit-hole in which much of the white gentile population resists committing demographic, cultural and economic suicide through open borders Third-World immigration and ‘free trade’ deindustrialization for the purpose of furthering global Jewish group interest, as set out and promoted by Stephens and his allies.

    And I couldn’t even begin to imagine the horrors the Kristol family must have suffered at the hands of gentile Americans!

    Read More
    • Replies: @Joe Walker
    Isn't it amazing how Jews always end up surrounded by anti-Semites? It's almost as if they were doing something to antagonize the local gentile population.
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  18. syonredux says:
    @anony-mouse
    Where did Ron Unz's grandparents come from? Is he a holer? Sailer's-were they all already here?

    Where did Ron Unz’s grandparents come from? Is he a holer? Sailer’s-were they all already here?

    My Dad’s are from England and Scotland (18th century). My Mom’s father was a German-speaking Ashkenazi from Latvia. Was ’30s Latvia a hole? If it was, was it as much of a hole as ’30s Haiti? As Contemporary Haiti?

    And even it was, why would that mean that I have to allow immigration from Haiti?

    Read More
    • Replies: @anony-mouse
    It means that just because a country used to be shithole doesn't mean it will always be a shithole (of course like Haiti it may always be a shithole).

    And within every shithole there may be intact pieces of corn that just need better ground.

    , @Hippopotamusdrome


    Was ’30s Latvia a hole?

     

    Street washing truck cleaning Riga's designated shitting street, circa 1930

    So, apparently it was quite sanitary.

    Riga had a more advanced water works in 1662 than Port-au-Prince does now:


    History
    ...In 1662 Jacob Josten, a craftsman from Danzig, came to Rīga and within two years he had built a completely new water pumping station in a rampart tower at the end of Grecinieku Street by the Daugava River. Six horses were used to power the eight brass piston pumps that pumped the water from the Daugava River through a wooden pipe to a lead-lined, wooden storage tank at the top of the tower. The water flowed downwards from the 1080 cubic foot storage tank (about 30 m3) through wooden pipes that distributed the water to the various streets in the town. The water pressure in the supply network was 20 feet, i.e. six meters above street level. This pumping station operated without interruption for 200 years.

     

    , @Jack D
    If your grandfather was speaking German in Latvia he was speaking it to himself because everyone else spoke either Yiddish or Latvian. Yiddish was considered among some snotty people to be a sort of pidgin German and low class (when in fact it is a language unto itself), so Jews who were socially ambitious tried to switch to German (if you were even more ambitious you would convert to Catholicism). This worked OK in Vienna or Prague but there was not enough of a German speaking community in Latvia to make this stick. You really have to be suspicious of family lore because people tell stories that are self-aggrandizing. Instead of hearing it from your grandfather or your mother, you should have heard these stories from his neighbors - "Oh Moshe, he puts on such high class airs. He calls himself Moritz and pretends that he is speaking German."
    , @Hippopotamusdrome


    Was ’30s Latvia a hole?

     

    Street washing truck cleaning Riga's designated shitting street, circa 1930

    Riga had a more advanced water works in 1662 than Port-au-Prince does now:


    History
    ...In 1662 Jacob Josten, a craftsman from Danzig, came to Rīga and within two years he had built a completely new water pumping station in a rampart tower at the end of Grecinieku Street by the Daugava River. Six horses were used to power the eight brass piston pumps that pumped the water from the Daugava River through a wooden pipe to a lead-lined, wooden storage tank at the top of the tower. The water flowed downwards from the 1080 cubic foot storage tank (about 30 m3) through wooden pipes that distributed the water to the various streets in the town. The water pressure in the supply network was 20 feet, i.e. six meters above street level. This pumping station operated without interruption for 200 years.

     

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  19. syonredux says:
    @Anonymous
    NYT Pick comment:

    AA NY
    My grandparents and great grandparents came from Naples, Italy around 1900 when that "hole" was said to produce dirty, sneaky, criminally inclined immigrants. They were, to use the racist parlance of the day, "greaseballs."

    What is sad to me is that many of the people I know who still, amazingly, support Trump, have family backgrounds like mine. And these third generation "greaseballs", "micks" and "polaks" forget where they came from and what was said about their ancestors.

    Trump and his supporters truly do not get it. If 100 years from now the entire nation is a beautiful combination of brown and black and yellow, but still guided by the entire constitution and all of its ideals then the United States will continue to be the beacon of the world. If, on the other hand, 100 years from now the nation is ruled by a white elite that has closed its borders and trampled on the ideals of the 1st and 14th and many other amendments, then we will be a second rate nation with nothing to offer a hot divided world. What a s***hole place that will be.

    I'm still betting on the former.
    257 Recommend
     

    My grandparents and great grandparents came from Naples, Italy around 1900 when that “hole” was said to produce dirty, sneaky, criminally inclined immigrants. They were, to use the racist parlance of the day, “greaseballs.”

    What is sad to me is that many of the people I know who still, amazingly, support Trump, have family backgrounds like mine. And these third generation “greaseballs”, “micks” and “polaks” forget where they came from and what was said about their ancestors.

    It’s moronic comments like this that make me wish that America had closed her doors to immigration from, say, 1800 on.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
    No tortellini, black and white pudden for breakfast, matza ball soup, or kluski with kielbasa? Fahgettaboudit.
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  20. Hugh says:

    Moldova is not a shithole country.

    It is poor, but the people are civilised and recognisably European. The girls are also famous for their beauty which doesn’t hurt my anti-Stephens case.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Romanian
    Things will improve greatly when it is reunited with the Romanian motherland, whose GDP/capita is six times higher and, for all its ills, is still much better run than Moldova. /irredentism

    And, yeah, they are lookers. Too bad they are also exploited mercilessly for it, as is the whole of Eastern Europe. I think the beauty thing, aside from the regional gene pool and the selection in environments with high male mortality, is also due to the greater femininity of the women in terms of culture, not having been spoiled in great numbers by ideologies adverse to beauty. So even a homelier woman would take care of herself, dress as well as she can afford, wear make-up etc and thereby increase her natural appeal.
    , @BB753
    My definition of a shithole is a country with few roads, hospitals, no tap water or sewer system, little law and order, not much of an economy and even fewer educated citizens. Moldavia or Moldova does not meet those criteria. If the country was located in Africa, it would be a superpower.
    Unless you've visited a real shithole, you don't know what a real shithole is. Yes, Virginia, Haiti is a shithole. And Moldova is not.
    , @Jack D
    It depends what you mean by shit hole. It is European but much poorer than most of modern Europe. For the Jews who left, it was a shit hole in the same way that Myanmar is a shit hole for the Rohingya right now - when the oppression dial turned up on them, it didn't make a difference how prosperous or European the community was in general.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kishinev_pogrom

    I fully understand Jews like Stephens who identify with refugees because of their own family history. But the brilliant Ashkenazi refugees like the Stephens family were much more assiminable (maybe to the taste of some here TOO assimilable and successful) than Hondurans and Somalis, etc. Guys like Stephens make the mistake of thinking that little Mohammed from Mogadishu is just like Grandpa Moshe from Kishinev and don't get it that Mohammed's grandson will be named Mohammed and not Bret and is never going to be a NY Times columnist/gastroenterologist/ college professor like Moshe's grandkids.
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  21. Anon • Disclaimer says:

    Obviously it goes without saying, but the whole logic of “but people thought the irish/jews were bad” is incredibly tenuous. There are plausible arguments for immigration liberalization, but “my great-grandfather was a poor bricklayer from Sicily, but I’m a doctor!” is not one of them.

    As Thomas Sowell said there is no such thing an immigrant in general. In other words, you need to look at actual context. When’s the last time you’ve heard someone say “Mexican immigrants are good because history has proven fears about previous groups of Mexican immigrants to be unjustified.”? Conversely, you hear (((people))) saying all the time that we should open the floodgates to Mexicans because previous groups of Irish have done fine.

    Read More
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  22. anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous
    NYT Pick comment:

    AA NY
    My grandparents and great grandparents came from Naples, Italy around 1900 when that "hole" was said to produce dirty, sneaky, criminally inclined immigrants. They were, to use the racist parlance of the day, "greaseballs."

    What is sad to me is that many of the people I know who still, amazingly, support Trump, have family backgrounds like mine. And these third generation "greaseballs", "micks" and "polaks" forget where they came from and what was said about their ancestors.

    Trump and his supporters truly do not get it. If 100 years from now the entire nation is a beautiful combination of brown and black and yellow, but still guided by the entire constitution and all of its ideals then the United States will continue to be the beacon of the world. If, on the other hand, 100 years from now the nation is ruled by a white elite that has closed its borders and trampled on the ideals of the 1st and 14th and many other amendments, then we will be a second rate nation with nothing to offer a hot divided world. What a s***hole place that will be.

    I'm still betting on the former.
    257 Recommend
     

    If 100 years from now the entire nation is a beautiful combination of brown and black and yellow, but still guided by the entire constitution and all of its ideals then the United States will continue to be the beacon of the world.

    That’s why Liberia is the beacon of the world.

    If, on the other hand, 100 years from now the nation is ruled by a white elite that has closed its borders and trampled on the ideals of the 1st and 14th and many other amendments,

    I wonder if this woman (and I am sure that it is a woman) is aware that whites are the only ones who actually give a crap about the First Amendment.

    Actually, I don’t. She is clearly a New York Times reader, so how would she ever learn something like that?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous


    If 100 years from now the entire nation is a beautiful combination of brown and black and yellow, but still guided by the entire constitution and all of its ideals
     

     
    But won't that be a living Constitution? And therefore "guided" by the agitations of its browns, blacks and yellows against its remaining whites.
    , @Joe Stalin
    "That’s why Liberia is the beacon of the world."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberian_nationality_law

    "The Republic of Liberia was founded by African slaves from North America by the American Colonization Society and returned to establish a republic on African soil. Nationality law is given in the Aliens and Nationality Law of 1973, based on its 1847 Constitution. Human rights activists have described current citizenship laws as explicitly racist, as it requires being black as a prerequisite to citizenship.[1] The first constitution allowed for women to transmit their nationality to their children, although multiple citizenship was not permitted nor is it permitted in revisions of the constitution.

    Liberia confers nationality solely on the basis of race. Under the current Liberian constitution, only persons of black African origins may obtain citizenship, although Liberian law allows members of other races to hold permanent residency status. Within Liberia itself, the wider implications of the policy are part of a heated debate in which some native Liberians themselves have acknowledged that non-African permanent residents are crucial contributors to the country's economic activities and innovation system, mainly the wealthy Lebanese community.[2]

    Features of the first constitution that have been upheld include:

    Article V, Section 13 of the 1847 Constitution which states: "The great object of forming these Colonies, being to provide a home for the dispersed and oppressed children of Africa, and to regenerate and enlighten this benighted continent, none but persons of colour shall be eligible to citizenship in this Republic." The phrasing "persons of colour" was changed to "Negroes or persons of Negro descent" in a 1955 revision.

    The Liberian legislature was charged with establishing criteria for naturalisation. All applicants must be black Africans to be naturalized.
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  23. Ed says:

    Yet 23 years after his great grandfather arrived America said no more with the 1924 immigration act.

    Looks like we’re finally getting the debate on immigration we want. Chipping away at ‘65 is good thing.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/13/us/trump-immigration-history.html

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    I thought liberals were trying to avoid this, but the unsubtle Mae Ngai (http://www.unz.com/isteve/nyt-its-racist-to-not-let-cousin-abduls-father-in-law-immigrate/) barely even pauses to breathe let alone reflect before making the Norway-is-white/Norway-is-functional connection:

    Mr. Trump’s remarks were “sadly reminiscent of the language used by nativists and racists in the early 20th century against Eastern and Southern Europeans and Asians,” said Mae Ngai, an immigration historian at Columbia University.

    “Obviously he likes Norwegians because they are white,” she added. “But he knows nothing about Norway, a country with single-payer universal health care and free college education. Why would anyone want to leave Norway for the U.S.?”
     

    Um... for its Diversity?
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  24. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Ed
    Yet 23 years after his great grandfather arrived America said no more with the 1924 immigration act.

    Looks like we’re finally getting the debate on immigration we want. Chipping away at ‘65 is good thing.


    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/13/us/trump-immigration-history.html

    I thought liberals were trying to avoid this, but the unsubtle Mae Ngai (http://www.unz.com/isteve/nyt-its-racist-to-not-let-cousin-abduls-father-in-law-immigrate/) barely even pauses to breathe let alone reflect before making the Norway-is-white/Norway-is-functional connection:

    Mr. Trump’s remarks were “sadly reminiscent of the language used by nativists and racists in the early 20th century against Eastern and Southern Europeans and Asians,” said Mae Ngai, an immigration historian at Columbia University.

    “Obviously he likes Norwegians because they are white,” she added. “But he knows nothing about Norway, a country with single-payer universal health care and free college education. Why would anyone want to leave Norway for the U.S.?”

    Um… for its Diversity?

    Read More
    • Replies: @anon
    Um… for its Diversity?

    Brilliant! I'm stealing that!
    , @Dave Pinsen
    I know someone who left Norway for the U.S. (a Swede, who worked in Norway). He did it because he married an American woman and because he has his own business he can run from New York. When it gets too hot for him in New York, he goes to his cabin in northern Sweden.
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  25. @syonredux

    Where did Ron Unz’s grandparents come from? Is he a holer? Sailer’s-were they all already here?
     
    My Dad's are from England and Scotland (18th century). My Mom's father was a German-speaking Ashkenazi from Latvia. Was '30s Latvia a hole? If it was, was it as much of a hole as '30s Haiti? As Contemporary Haiti?

    And even it was, why would that mean that I have to allow immigration from Haiti?

    It means that just because a country used to be shithole doesn’t mean it will always be a shithole (of course like Haiti it may always be a shithole).

    And within every shithole there may be intact pieces of corn that just need better ground.

    Read More
    • Replies: @syonredux

    It means that just because a country used to be shithole doesn’t mean it will always be a shithole (of course like Haiti it may always be a shithole).
     
    Which is something that everybody knows. Cf South Korea, which was Third World 60 years ago.

    And within every shithole there may be intact pieces of corn that just need better ground.
     
    But that doesn't mean that we have to provide the soil. America is beholden to her people, not to foreigners.

    As I've said elsewhere, here's my rule of thumb on immigration: People should not be allowed to immigrate to the USA if they can qualify for affirmative action on racial, ethnic, or religious grounds.
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  26. @Anonymous
    "Well, no," they reply, "I just wouldn't want to selfishly deny Haitians the opportunities my ancestors had."

    Immigration has no cure.

    The time dimension to “Who We Are” is intriguing. As the Narrative becomes ever more an eternal present, it seems We were always people who let in wreckers and ingrates.

    If only analysing Talmudry evaporated it…

    Read More
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  27. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @anon

    If 100 years from now the entire nation is a beautiful combination of brown and black and yellow, but still guided by the entire constitution and all of its ideals then the United States will continue to be the beacon of the world.
     
    That's why Liberia is the beacon of the world.


    If, on the other hand, 100 years from now the nation is ruled by a white elite that has closed its borders and trampled on the ideals of the 1st and 14th and many other amendments,
     
    I wonder if this woman (and I am sure that it is a woman) is aware that whites are the only ones who actually give a crap about the First Amendment.

    Actually, I don't. She is clearly a New York Times reader, so how would she ever learn something like that?

    If 100 years from now the entire nation is a beautiful combination of brown and black and yellow, but still guided by the entire constitution and all of its ideals

    But won’t that be a living Constitution? And therefore “guided” by the agitations of its browns, blacks and yellows against its remaining whites.

    Read More
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  28. @anonymouslee
    One of the more pathetic aspects of contemporary political rhetoric is its failure to meet standards of persuasive argument most of us learned when we transitioned from crying infants to wheedling toddlers.


    The comments on articles like this and in Twitter debates are absolutely stuffed to the brim with variations of, "You oppose illegal immigrants from Mexico demanding free bilingual healthcare? Hmmm, I guess you didn't know *my* own mother is one of those illegal immigrants who never learned English and depends on the welfare state. How stupid do you feel now?"


    Errm, well, not at all. Unfortunately, when we Anglo men respond to such absurdly naked appeals to self-interest by saying nothing, in a gallant attempt to avoid acknowledging their humiliating failure to engage in rational discourse, they take our silence as embarrassment in our own stated view.

    It's facially retarded nonsense from your average low-IQ interlocutor and ostentatiously obnoxious chutzpah from smarter, more sophisticated intellectuals (though, as Steve has noted, a few generations in and even the Jews stop being in on the joke of their grandparents' droll feint of naively explicit solipsism).

    To the disinterested observer of rhetoric this most common tack is so spectacular a catastrophe as to beggar belief. Could a sane adult of intellectual maturity even conceive of such an approach?

    Imagine an English gentleman of a few centuries ago having a reasoned debate with a sincere opponent of aristocratic privilege in the political sphere. At some point our Tory partisan offers what he considers his ace in the hole, a dispositive climax, a triumphant coup de grace: "Yes, but I suppose you did not know that the entire time we were debating this, *my own father*, the Duke of Piddlington, was exercising his aristocratic rights in the House of Lords, warming the very seat that I will inherit for my own self. How foolish must you feel now, having opposed the legitimacy of aristocratic power! I will graciously accept your apology for daring to question that which benefits and comforts me."


    In a civilized society one is obliged to offer better reasons for his position than "because I want it this way." Only babies and tyrants dare offer nought but demands.

    (though, as Steve has noted, a few generations in and even the Jews stop being in on the joke of their grandparents’ droll feint of naively explicit solipsism)

    One really has to wonder, given the seemly effortless ability to engage in it, rather than a feint, it’s a component of the firmware…

    Read More
    • Replies: @Thomas
    There’s something to be said for a few generations of “getting high on your own supply.” Steve has pointed out quite a bit how lacking in self-awareness the Jews have become.
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  29. @anon
    So, if I understand this correctly, we should let in people from shithole countries, so that their children can grow up and have careers lecturing us and demanding that we bring even more people from even more shitholes, for the rest of eternity. And that isn't the kind of opportunity you want to pass up, apparently.

    You got it, bucko

    Read More
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  30. syonredux says:
    @anony-mouse
    It means that just because a country used to be shithole doesn't mean it will always be a shithole (of course like Haiti it may always be a shithole).

    And within every shithole there may be intact pieces of corn that just need better ground.

    It means that just because a country used to be shithole doesn’t mean it will always be a shithole (of course like Haiti it may always be a shithole).

    Which is something that everybody knows. Cf South Korea, which was Third World 60 years ago.

    And within every shithole there may be intact pieces of corn that just need better ground.

    But that doesn’t mean that we have to provide the soil. America is beholden to her people, not to foreigners.

    As I’ve said elsewhere, here’s my rule of thumb on immigration: People should not be allowed to immigrate to the USA if they can qualify for affirmative action on racial, ethnic, or religious grounds.

    Read More
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  31. Mr. Anon says:

    If my ancestors had known that by admitting the ancestors of Stephens people, their descendents would be denied the right to control the borders of their own nation, then they never would have let them in. I can only conclude that they should not have.

    Read More
    • Agree: Druid
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  32. Mr. Anon says:

    Wasn’t Stephens the guy who recently wrote that a lot of native Americans are – to use the now favored term – s**ty people, who ought to be deported.

    Why doesn’t Stephens just come out and say what he really thinks about Americans: F**k you, goyim, and f**k the country your ancestors created.

    Read More
    • Replies: @dr kill
    No, I think that was some other shithead at the NR.
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  33. Thomas says:
    @Antlitz Grollheim

    (though, as Steve has noted, a few generations in and even the Jews stop being in on the joke of their grandparents’ droll feint of naively explicit solipsism)
     
    One really has to wonder, given the seemly effortless ability to engage in it, rather than a feint, it's a component of the firmware...

    There’s something to be said for a few generations of “getting high on your own supply.” Steve has pointed out quite a bit how lacking in self-awareness the Jews have become.

    Read More
    • Replies: @syonredux

    There’s something to be said for a few generations of “getting high on your own supply.” Steve has pointed out quite a bit how lacking in self-awareness the Jews have become.

     

    Indeed. Check out this little exchange that Steve has had with (((Yair Rosenberg))) (the parentheses are his, not mine) on Twitter:

    Israel's population is 20% Arab, most of whom are Muslim. Half its Jews are of Middle Eastern origin: Syrian, Iraqi, Iranian, etc. It airlifted tens of thousands of Ethiopians into the country. The homogeneous (white) America you advocate looks *nothing* like Israel today.
     
    https://twitter.com/Yair_Rosenberg/status/952333475486584833


    Note how he's boasting about intra-Jewish diversity in Israel while condemning White America for its homogeneity. A more honest observer would note all the intra-White diversity in America:Poles, Irish, Germans, Italians, Scandinavians, Greeks, etc. But I guess that Christian Europeans are just an undifferentiated mass to him.

    Ann, needless to say, he would never think of arguing that Israel should let in Muslim Arab immigrants to swell that 20% Arab figure....

    , @anonymouslee
    one signal:

    "Is it good for the Jews?" started out as a Jewish joke mocking Jewish navel-gazing. I've now seen plenty of hot takes where some Thomas Friedman level moron builds a supposedly serious argument around the question--not the joke--"but is it good for the Jews?" True, someone like Friedman might casually acknowledge that he's referencing an old joke but perhaps in another generation it will go from a joke to referencing its history as a joke to not knowing it was ever a joke.

    I can tell you that earlier generations of Jewish writers for the NYT wouldn't literally print, unironically, "but is it good for the Jews?" and then seriously discuss whether something or other is "good for the Jews." Friedman would say that his drivel represents progress for precisely that reason. I demur.
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  34. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Just another lie from Stephens. By any reasonable definition, Moldova is most definitely not a shithole country. It’s a slightly poorer version of Romania. That is: Moldova is incomparably more advanced economically and socially in comparison to the real shithole countries like Haiti, Afghanistan, most of the African countries and even large swaths of Mexico.

    Read More
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  35. Corn says:
    @Anonymous
    NYT Pick comment:

    AA NY
    My grandparents and great grandparents came from Naples, Italy around 1900 when that "hole" was said to produce dirty, sneaky, criminally inclined immigrants. They were, to use the racist parlance of the day, "greaseballs."

    What is sad to me is that many of the people I know who still, amazingly, support Trump, have family backgrounds like mine. And these third generation "greaseballs", "micks" and "polaks" forget where they came from and what was said about their ancestors.

    Trump and his supporters truly do not get it. If 100 years from now the entire nation is a beautiful combination of brown and black and yellow, but still guided by the entire constitution and all of its ideals then the United States will continue to be the beacon of the world. If, on the other hand, 100 years from now the nation is ruled by a white elite that has closed its borders and trampled on the ideals of the 1st and 14th and many other amendments, then we will be a second rate nation with nothing to offer a hot divided world. What a s***hole place that will be.

    I'm still betting on the former.
    257 Recommend
     

    “My grandparents and great grandparents came from Naples, Italy around 1900 when that “hole” was said to produce dirty, sneaky, criminally inclined immigrants. They were, to use the racist parlance of the day, “greaseballs.””

    Don’t mention the afia-may.

    “If 100 years from now the entire nation is a beautiful combination of brown and black and yellow, but still guided by the constitution “

    Couldn’t help but notice no room for white in there.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egtdYTuRKto
    , @Steve Sailer
    Naples waste management issue
    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Uncollected garbage in Naples, 2010.
    The Naples waste management crisis is a series of events surrounding the lack of waste collection in the city of Naples that peaked in the summer of 2008, and regarding the disposal of the trash is currently unresolved. ...

    Reports during the summer of 2008 stated that the problem was caused at least in part by the Camorra, a powerful local mafia based in Campania, who had created a lucrative business in the municipal waste disposal business. Heavy metals, industrial waste, and chemicals and household waste are frequently mixed together, then dumped near roads and burned to avoid detection, leading to severe soil and air pollution.[3]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naples_waste_management_issue

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  36. anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous
    I thought liberals were trying to avoid this, but the unsubtle Mae Ngai (http://www.unz.com/isteve/nyt-its-racist-to-not-let-cousin-abduls-father-in-law-immigrate/) barely even pauses to breathe let alone reflect before making the Norway-is-white/Norway-is-functional connection:

    Mr. Trump’s remarks were “sadly reminiscent of the language used by nativists and racists in the early 20th century against Eastern and Southern Europeans and Asians,” said Mae Ngai, an immigration historian at Columbia University.

    “Obviously he likes Norwegians because they are white,” she added. “But he knows nothing about Norway, a country with single-payer universal health care and free college education. Why would anyone want to leave Norway for the U.S.?”
     

    Um... for its Diversity?

    Um… for its Diversity?

    Brilliant! I’m stealing that!

    Read More
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  37. @Corn
    “My grandparents and great grandparents came from Naples, Italy around 1900 when that “hole” was said to produce dirty, sneaky, criminally inclined immigrants. They were, to use the racist parlance of the day, “greaseballs.””

    Don’t mention the afia-may.

    “If 100 years from now the entire nation is a beautiful combination of brown and black and yellow, but still guided by the constitution “

    Couldn’t help but notice no room for white in there.

    Read More
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  38. j says: • Website

    Stephens mistakenly assumes that his Jewish ancestor was Moldavian. He does not want to take note of the fact that for the Moldavians he was not. The horrible pogrom of Kishinev forced his ancestor to acknowledge reality and flee. I am amazed how naive – stupid is a better word – American Jews are.

    Read More
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  39. syonredux says:
    @Thomas
    There’s something to be said for a few generations of “getting high on your own supply.” Steve has pointed out quite a bit how lacking in self-awareness the Jews have become.

    There’s something to be said for a few generations of “getting high on your own supply.” Steve has pointed out quite a bit how lacking in self-awareness the Jews have become.

    Indeed. Check out this little exchange that Steve has had with (((Yair Rosenberg))) (the parentheses are his, not mine) on Twitter:

    Israel’s population is 20% Arab, most of whom are Muslim. Half its Jews are of Middle Eastern origin: Syrian, Iraqi, Iranian, etc. It airlifted tens of thousands of Ethiopians into the country. The homogeneous (white) America you advocate looks *nothing* like Israel today.

    Note how he’s boasting about intra-Jewish diversity in Israel while condemning White America for its homogeneity. A more honest observer would note all the intra-White diversity in America:Poles, Irish, Germans, Italians, Scandinavians, Greeks, etc. But I guess that Christian Europeans are just an undifferentiated mass to him.

    Ann, needless to say, he would never think of arguing that Israel should let in Muslim Arab immigrants to swell that 20% Arab figure….

    Read More
    • Replies: @Thomas
    Note also how seamlessly he adopts a meaning of “diverse” that equals “not white.”
    , @Anonymous
    I love his next tweet:

    If you just want America to be like Israel, you're actually saying you want the US to be 20% Arab and over 60% Middle Eastern. Oddly, that is not what I get from your writings.
     
    Similarly:

    If you just want America to be like Japan [i.e., immigration restrictionist], you're actually saying you want the US to be 99% Japanese. Oddly, that is not what I get from your writings.
     
    (((High verbal IQ)))
    , @Anonymous
    Check out the "Disputatious Jew" (their self-description) chiming in:

    I think @Steve_Sailer is making the common alt-right/antisemitic complaint: “Jews in the US advocate open borders, but Jews in Israel only allow Jews to immigrate.” While this complaint involves racist stereotyping, it IS difficult to immigrate to Israel if you’re not Jewish

    So it’s important to refute this alt-right/antisemitic /white nationalist argument by noting that Jews are a historically oppressed minority, while white people are not. Hence, they are making a false equivalence between white people and Jewish people
     

    Interlocutor:

    Yair is the one holding up Israel as a paragon of the multiculturalism he advocates for the USA/Europe while using an anti-semitic attack in Paris to justify the need for Israel as an ethnostate. It's hypocrisy bordering on gaslighting.
     
    Response:

    The fact that Jews are a historically oppressed minority who continue to be subject to antisemitic attacks does in fact justify why Israel needs to exist
     
    Perpetual victims who've had it pretty good here, repaying the favor by turning us into the victimized minorities they see themselves as, while working overtime to deprive us of the moral rights they derive from their victimhood (like having one's own country). Then they make us pay for this ethnostate they'll be shrieking at us forever that we're never allowed to have for ourselves.

    And despite having the power to do all this they see themselves as an "oppressed minority".

    And they wonder why they're historically disliked. ****ing unbelievable.

    , @anonymouslee
    Another good example of comically poor argumentation where the author probably actually believes he's nailed it.


    It's wrong but it's more shocking how plain dumb it is--just embarrassingly, humiliatingly, outrageously, awesomely, irredeemably stupid.

    These errors are quite literally more kindergarten than elementary. Eg, a third grader would call bullshit if someone tried the following argument:

    Timmy: I wish our teacher Mr. Jones was more like last year's teacher Miss James.

    Billy: You think Mr. Jones should wear skirts? That's what you're saying since Miss James wears skirts.

    Timmy would roll his eyes and tell Billy and shut up for being a disingenuous turd.
    , @Dmitry

    Note how he’s boasting about intra-Jewish diversity in Israel while condemning White America for its homogeneity. A more honest observer would note all the intra-White diversity in America:Poles, Irish, Germans, Italians, Scandinavians, Greeks, etc. But I guess that Christian Europeans are just an undifferentiated mass to him.
     
    It's not completely accurately written. In your case - you mention two groups: mostly pale people (Poles, Irish, Germans, Scandinavians) and then mostly light brown people (Italians, Greeks.) In this example, there is more cultural diversity, but two races.

    Whereas in Israel, you have pale people, light-brown people, medium-brown people, dark-brown people, black-people, etc, - i.e. most types in the planet represented. And the main divide in the country is religion, not the different races.

    Israel is one of the more racially diverse small countries in the world. At the same time, it has a conscious immigration policy, and the government is desperately trying to engineer its demographics. But the divide in this is again religion, not race.

    Israel is a very useful example for showing a kind of new-world country, where the government is trying to improve its demographics. Western countries could emulate the restrictiveness of the immigration system, only using different variables for the selection process. But if you want to put it up as an example of homogeneity? It's the opposite of that. If you want example of homogeneity, look at places like Japan.

    , @Dmitry
    https://twitter.com/Yair_Rosenberg/status/952333475486584833?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.unz.com%2Fisteve%2Fwhat-its-really-all-about%2F

    This guy - Yair Rosenberg - has blocked me on my Twitter account with 10 followers last year. I wrote some polite comment under one of his posts, correcting a pro-Democrat economic argument he made. Then when I checked back a few minutes later it said 'blocked' on his account and you cannot even read the tweets without logging out. The guy cannot bear dissenting views, even when they come from polite people.

    The only other one I had this blocking experience with is Louise Mensch. Even psychos like Zhirinovsky allow us to freely comment under their posts.

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  40. @Corn
    “My grandparents and great grandparents came from Naples, Italy around 1900 when that “hole” was said to produce dirty, sneaky, criminally inclined immigrants. They were, to use the racist parlance of the day, “greaseballs.””

    Don’t mention the afia-may.

    “If 100 years from now the entire nation is a beautiful combination of brown and black and yellow, but still guided by the constitution “

    Couldn’t help but notice no room for white in there.

    Naples waste management issue
    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Uncollected garbage in Naples, 2010.
    The Naples waste management crisis is a series of events surrounding the lack of waste collection in the city of Naples that peaked in the summer of 2008, and regarding the disposal of the trash is currently unresolved. …

    Reports during the summer of 2008 stated that the problem was caused at least in part by the Camorra, a powerful local mafia based in Campania, who had created a lucrative business in the municipal waste disposal business. Heavy metals, industrial waste, and chemicals and household waste are frequently mixed together, then dumped near roads and burned to avoid detection, leading to severe soil and air pollution.[3]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naples_waste_management_issue

    Read More
    • Replies: @stillCARealist
    When we visited Naples in 2016 with a tour group, we were not allowed to leave the group or do any shopping on our own, even during the day.

    To me, the city just looked like Rome, only poorer and older. That is, apart from the ancient ruins. Pompeii and its tourist trappings are doing a brisk business right nearby. Allowing all those US/Japanese/Chinese/Korean visitors some safety is probably job number one for the mafia.
    , @denjae
    "Heavy metals, industrial waste, and chemicals and household waste are frequently mixed together, then dumped near roads and burned to avoid detection, leading to severe soil and air pollution."

    Just like back roads in the mountains off of I-75 between Knoxville and Chattanooga TN.
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  41. @syonredux

    Yet that’s beside the point. We are not talking about Haiti, El Salvador, Nigeria or any other country on the president’s insult list. What counts are the people from these countries, both those who are already in the United States as well as those who wish to come. Why should the president think they are any less fit to become Americans than the Norwegians he seems to fancy?
     
    I mean, besides their IQ scores, the historically low economic performance of the Haitian-American community, their poor median GPA, etc, etc

    The obvious answer is racism, the same “textbook” case that Paul Ryan spoke of in June 2016 after Trump called a federal judge’s fitness into question on account of his ethnic heritage.
     
    Look, Haitians and Koreans are identical, OK?

    But immigrants are more likely to be fleeing those dysfunctions and prejudices than they are to be bringing them — just ask Dorsa Derakhshani, the international chess master from Iran who came to the United States last year because, as she wrote in an op-ed for The Times, the mullahs “cared more about the scarf covering my hair than the brain under it.”
     
    How many Haitian international chess masters are there? And what percentage of Haitian immigrants to the US do they comprise?And how many of them look like Dorsa Derakhshani?



    http://d279m997dpfwgl.cloudfront.net/wp/2017/09/0930_oag-dorsa-1000x667.jpg

    Vietnamese boat people did not bring fratricidal hatreds with them to America.
     
    Um, see, the USA has lots of Black people...and they tend to feel a tad antagonistic towards White people....and Haitians tend to share that hostility.....


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1804_Haiti_massacre

    Soviet refuseniks did not bring a Soviet work ethic.

     

    You're gonna have to work really hard to make people think that Haitians are like Ashkenazi Jews....

    This should go without saying, except that the age of Trump is also the age in which restatements of the obvious have become necessary for civilization.

     

    Like how all immigrants are exactly alike.....

    They don’t undermine American culture. They feed, enrich and reinvent it,
     
    Yeah, I mean just look at all the ways in which Haitians have enriched American culture....

    not least through their educational ambitions for themselves and their children.
     
    The link that he has here is really amazing. See, all six of the USA's 2016 Nobel Laureates were immigrants....of course, none of them were Black or Latinx immigrants...but that doesn't matter. Repeat after me: ALL IMMIGRANTS ARE THE SAME.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/12/opinion/proud-nation-of-holers.html

    Joshua Colas is an Haitian-American chess master. He is attending Webster University on a chess scholarship, coach by Susan Polgar. With perhaps the exception of Somalis, all black immigrant groups outperform native US blacks.

    As for women, not one American chess International Master or Grandmaster has been born in the United States. They are all immigrants with Dorsa Derakhshani from Iran soon joining them.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_female_chess_players

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    • Replies: @syonredux

    Joshua Colas is an Haitian-American chess master. He is attending Webster University on a chess scholarship, coach by Susan Polgar.
     
    Well, one is better than none, I suppose....

    With perhaps the exception of Somalis, all black immigrant groups outperform native US blacks.
     
    Low bar.

    As for women, not one American chess International Master or Grandmaster has been born in the United States.
     
    Yeah, American women aren't much interested in chess.
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  42. Thomas says:
    @syonredux

    There’s something to be said for a few generations of “getting high on your own supply.” Steve has pointed out quite a bit how lacking in self-awareness the Jews have become.

     

    Indeed. Check out this little exchange that Steve has had with (((Yair Rosenberg))) (the parentheses are his, not mine) on Twitter:

    Israel's population is 20% Arab, most of whom are Muslim. Half its Jews are of Middle Eastern origin: Syrian, Iraqi, Iranian, etc. It airlifted tens of thousands of Ethiopians into the country. The homogeneous (white) America you advocate looks *nothing* like Israel today.
     
    https://twitter.com/Yair_Rosenberg/status/952333475486584833


    Note how he's boasting about intra-Jewish diversity in Israel while condemning White America for its homogeneity. A more honest observer would note all the intra-White diversity in America:Poles, Irish, Germans, Italians, Scandinavians, Greeks, etc. But I guess that Christian Europeans are just an undifferentiated mass to him.

    Ann, needless to say, he would never think of arguing that Israel should let in Muslim Arab immigrants to swell that 20% Arab figure....

    Note also how seamlessly he adopts a meaning of “diverse” that equals “not white.”

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  43. Whiskey says: • Website

    Typical feminine feelz garbage. A man would object on grounds of things of interest to men. Such as “we need cheap cannon fodder for imperial wars, our valuable soldiers cannot be wasted in human minefield detector attacks!” Things like that.

    Rather, the response to this should be: A. The Third World is with very few exception, a giant s-hole. B. They’ve had nearly 70 years to run things themselves and have made a mess of things. C. We should run things for them as IMPERIAL POWERS DENYING THEM ANY VOTING RIGHTS or any political voice but providing clean water, safe food, decent schools, and a giant China style police state out of XianXing.

    Since the Third World cannot run itself and its one small fragile planet, time for Whites and Chinese/Koreans/Japanese/Thais/Vietnamese and maybe Malaysians to step in and run things. America, Europe and China can step in run things. Third World peoples are FAILURES and should be treated as global failures.

    We ought to provide a good offense as a good defense. That flipping universal globalism around, means Third World people not only don’t have rights to move here, they don’t have rights to rule themselves as they are total failures. They can’t even organize indoor plumbing and sewage treatment plants. Ex-Communist hell-holes like Romania have at least THAT. So why not?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
    In other words, the British Empire, which actually did more good for the countries to whom it brought civilization than any PBS program will ever acknowledge.
    , @John Derbyshire
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  44. What is sad to me is that many of the people I know who still, amazingly, support Trump, have family backgrounds like mine. And these third generation “greaseballs”, “micks” and “polaks” forget where they came from and what was said about their ancestors.

    What’s so bad about forgetting (and forgiving) old resentments anyway?

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  45. syonredux says:
    @Triumph104
    Joshua Colas is an Haitian-American chess master. He is attending Webster University on a chess scholarship, coach by Susan Polgar. With perhaps the exception of Somalis, all black immigrant groups outperform native US blacks.

    As for women, not one American chess International Master or Grandmaster has been born in the United States. They are all immigrants with Dorsa Derakhshani from Iran soon joining them.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_female_chess_players

    Joshua Colas is an Haitian-American chess master. He is attending Webster University on a chess scholarship, coach by Susan Polgar.

    Well, one is better than none, I suppose….

    With perhaps the exception of Somalis, all black immigrant groups outperform native US blacks.

    Low bar.

    As for women, not one American chess International Master or Grandmaster has been born in the United States.

    Yeah, American women aren’t much interested in chess.

    Read More
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  46. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @syonredux

    There’s something to be said for a few generations of “getting high on your own supply.” Steve has pointed out quite a bit how lacking in self-awareness the Jews have become.

     

    Indeed. Check out this little exchange that Steve has had with (((Yair Rosenberg))) (the parentheses are his, not mine) on Twitter:

    Israel's population is 20% Arab, most of whom are Muslim. Half its Jews are of Middle Eastern origin: Syrian, Iraqi, Iranian, etc. It airlifted tens of thousands of Ethiopians into the country. The homogeneous (white) America you advocate looks *nothing* like Israel today.
     
    https://twitter.com/Yair_Rosenberg/status/952333475486584833


    Note how he's boasting about intra-Jewish diversity in Israel while condemning White America for its homogeneity. A more honest observer would note all the intra-White diversity in America:Poles, Irish, Germans, Italians, Scandinavians, Greeks, etc. But I guess that Christian Europeans are just an undifferentiated mass to him.

    Ann, needless to say, he would never think of arguing that Israel should let in Muslim Arab immigrants to swell that 20% Arab figure....

    I love his next tweet:

    If you just want America to be like Israel, you’re actually saying you want the US to be 20% Arab and over 60% Middle Eastern. Oddly, that is not what I get from your writings.

    Similarly:

    If you just want America to be like Japan [i.e., immigration restrictionist], you’re actually saying you want the US to be 99% Japanese. Oddly, that is not what I get from your writings.

    (((High verbal IQ)))

    Read More
    • Replies: @syonredux

    I love his next tweet:

    If you just want America to be like Israel, you’re actually saying you want the US to be 20% Arab and over 60% Middle Eastern. Oddly, that is not what I get from your writings.

    Similarly:

    If you just want America to be like Japan [i.e., immigration restrictionist], you’re actually saying you want the US to be 99% Japanese. Oddly, that is not what I get from your writings.

    (((High verbal IQ)))
     

    Yeah. Hard to tell if he's retarded or willfully dense.

    If you just want America to be like Israel, you’re actually saying you want the US to be 20% Arab and over 60% Middle Eastern. Oddly, that is not what I get from your writings.
     
    Yair, if you are reading this, here is the definition of the word "like":

    : similar to (something or someone)
     
    So, wanting America to be "like " Israel/ Japan does not mean that we want to be identical to Israel/ Japan. It merely means that we want to be similar to Israel/Japan. In this case, we want America to have immigration policies that are similar to those of Israel/Japan.

    Now you know, Yair. And knowing is half the battle:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pele5vptVgc

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  47. @Thomas
    There’s something to be said for a few generations of “getting high on your own supply.” Steve has pointed out quite a bit how lacking in self-awareness the Jews have become.

    one signal:

    “Is it good for the Jews?” started out as a Jewish joke mocking Jewish navel-gazing. I’ve now seen plenty of hot takes where some Thomas Friedman level moron builds a supposedly serious argument around the question–not the joke–”but is it good for the Jews?” True, someone like Friedman might casually acknowledge that he’s referencing an old joke but perhaps in another generation it will go from a joke to referencing its history as a joke to not knowing it was ever a joke.

    I can tell you that earlier generations of Jewish writers for the NYT wouldn’t literally print, unironically, “but is it good for the Jews?” and then seriously discuss whether something or other is “good for the Jews.” Friedman would say that his drivel represents progress for precisely that reason. I demur.

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  48. istevefan says:
    @syonredux

    Let’s not mince words: Moldova is a hole. Modify with any four letters you wish.

    I mention Moldova because it’s where my paternal grandfather was born in 1901. An anti-Semitic rampage in his hometown, Kishinev, soon forced his family to leave for New York, where my great-grandfather labored as a carpenter in the Brooklyn Navy Yard for eight dollars a week. …
     
    Let's get real; I don't really care about a bunch of Blacks in Haiti. It's just that I can only view immigration through a filiopietistic lens....

    I can only view immigration through a filiopietistic lens….

    Hasn’t Steve written that white guilt is liking your ancestors too much, while Jewish guilt is liking them too little?

    Read More
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  49. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @syonredux

    There’s something to be said for a few generations of “getting high on your own supply.” Steve has pointed out quite a bit how lacking in self-awareness the Jews have become.

     

    Indeed. Check out this little exchange that Steve has had with (((Yair Rosenberg))) (the parentheses are his, not mine) on Twitter:

    Israel's population is 20% Arab, most of whom are Muslim. Half its Jews are of Middle Eastern origin: Syrian, Iraqi, Iranian, etc. It airlifted tens of thousands of Ethiopians into the country. The homogeneous (white) America you advocate looks *nothing* like Israel today.
     
    https://twitter.com/Yair_Rosenberg/status/952333475486584833


    Note how he's boasting about intra-Jewish diversity in Israel while condemning White America for its homogeneity. A more honest observer would note all the intra-White diversity in America:Poles, Irish, Germans, Italians, Scandinavians, Greeks, etc. But I guess that Christian Europeans are just an undifferentiated mass to him.

    Ann, needless to say, he would never think of arguing that Israel should let in Muslim Arab immigrants to swell that 20% Arab figure....

    Check out the “Disputatious Jew” (their self-description) chiming in:

    I think @Steve_Sailer is making the common alt-right/antisemitic complaint: “Jews in the US advocate open borders, but Jews in Israel only allow Jews to immigrate.” While this complaint involves racist stereotyping, it IS difficult to immigrate to Israel if you’re not Jewish

    So it’s important to refute this alt-right/antisemitic /white nationalist argument by noting that Jews are a historically oppressed minority, while white people are not. Hence, they are making a false equivalence between white people and Jewish people

    Interlocutor:

    Yair is the one holding up Israel as a paragon of the multiculturalism he advocates for the USA/Europe while using an anti-semitic attack in Paris to justify the need for Israel as an ethnostate. It’s hypocrisy bordering on gaslighting.

    Response:

    The fact that Jews are a historically oppressed minority who continue to be subject to antisemitic attacks does in fact justify why Israel needs to exist

    Perpetual victims who’ve had it pretty good here, repaying the favor by turning us into the victimized minorities they see themselves as, while working overtime to deprive us of the moral rights they derive from their victimhood (like having one’s own country). Then they make us pay for this ethnostate they’ll be shrieking at us forever that we’re never allowed to have for ourselves.

    And despite having the power to do all this they see themselves as an “oppressed minority”.

    And they wonder why they’re historically disliked. ****ing unbelievable.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Joe Walker
    With the Jews it is always "do as we say, not as we do".
    , @syonredux
    Jeffrey Goldberg once made an affirmative action argument for the state of Israel. See, the world is full of non-Jewish states, but there is only one Jewish state.....
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  50. @syonredux

    Let’s not mince words: Moldova is a hole. Modify with any four letters you wish.

    I mention Moldova because it’s where my paternal grandfather was born in 1901. An anti-Semitic rampage in his hometown, Kishinev, soon forced his family to leave for New York, where my great-grandfather labored as a carpenter in the Brooklyn Navy Yard for eight dollars a week. …
     
    Let's get real; I don't really care about a bunch of Blacks in Haiti. It's just that I can only view immigration through a filiopietistic lens....

    I am the grandson and great-grandson of immigrants but I don’t find any cognitive dissonance in saying that this 50 year cycle of open borders should be shut down. Do people really not see that the future without a drastic change in course is Brazil? I.e. a massive bifurcation of society until the lower class living standards equilibrate with the third world? Sure all 7 billion won’t come here… they come here til we hit an equilibrium for the newcomers where it’s just as attractive to stay home as to come. Might only take another decade or two.

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  51. syonredux says:
    @Anonymous
    I love his next tweet:

    If you just want America to be like Israel, you're actually saying you want the US to be 20% Arab and over 60% Middle Eastern. Oddly, that is not what I get from your writings.
     
    Similarly:

    If you just want America to be like Japan [i.e., immigration restrictionist], you're actually saying you want the US to be 99% Japanese. Oddly, that is not what I get from your writings.
     
    (((High verbal IQ)))

    I love his next tweet:

    If you just want America to be like Israel, you’re actually saying you want the US to be 20% Arab and over 60% Middle Eastern. Oddly, that is not what I get from your writings.

    Similarly:

    If you just want America to be like Japan [i.e., immigration restrictionist], you’re actually saying you want the US to be 99% Japanese. Oddly, that is not what I get from your writings.

    (((High verbal IQ)))

    Yeah. Hard to tell if he’s retarded or willfully dense.

    If you just want America to be like Israel, you’re actually saying you want the US to be 20% Arab and over 60% Middle Eastern. Oddly, that is not what I get from your writings.

    Yair, if you are reading this, here is the definition of the word “like”:

    : similar to (something or someone)

    So, wanting America to be “like ” Israel/ Japan does not mean that we want to be identical to Israel/ Japan. It merely means that we want to be similar to Israel/Japan. In this case, we want America to have immigration policies that are similar to those of Israel/Japan.

    Now you know, Yair. And knowing is half the battle:

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous

    Yeah. Hard to tell if he’s retarded or willfully dense.
     
    @AlexNowrasteh "liked" it...
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  52. helena says:

    There’s a new documentary on UK TV. Miriam Margoles (Professor something in HP) visiting middle-America to meet people who supported Trump. She stays with or visits people and sits round the table with them telling them she doesn’t like their culture. What other culture would she do that to? But even though she says she finds the culture exclusive it is noticeable that immediately after each contact with a group of positive-thinking, outdoorsy, Americans, her whole demeanour briefly changes from disgruntled to happy.

    Keep it up America!!

    [UK isn't even allowed to see Trump in the flesh so toxic has the Left branded him - The Mayor of London is now dictating to the Queen who she can and can't invite to dinner.]

    Read More
    • Replies: @DFH
    A Jewish person lecturing criticising white Christian culture; stunningly original.
    , @Rosamond Vincy
    Who would have thought that any Mayor could be worse than Red Ken?
    , @Alden
    The Mayors of London have always dictated to the sovereign.
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  53. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @syonredux

    I love his next tweet:

    If you just want America to be like Israel, you’re actually saying you want the US to be 20% Arab and over 60% Middle Eastern. Oddly, that is not what I get from your writings.

    Similarly:

    If you just want America to be like Japan [i.e., immigration restrictionist], you’re actually saying you want the US to be 99% Japanese. Oddly, that is not what I get from your writings.

    (((High verbal IQ)))
     

    Yeah. Hard to tell if he's retarded or willfully dense.

    If you just want America to be like Israel, you’re actually saying you want the US to be 20% Arab and over 60% Middle Eastern. Oddly, that is not what I get from your writings.
     
    Yair, if you are reading this, here is the definition of the word "like":

    : similar to (something or someone)
     
    So, wanting America to be "like " Israel/ Japan does not mean that we want to be identical to Israel/ Japan. It merely means that we want to be similar to Israel/Japan. In this case, we want America to have immigration policies that are similar to those of Israel/Japan.

    Now you know, Yair. And knowing is half the battle:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pele5vptVgc

    Yeah. Hard to tell if he’s retarded or willfully dense.

    @AlexNowrasteh “liked” it…

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    • Replies: @rogue-one
    willfully dense. It requires some degree of intelligence to keep selling jewish propaganda.
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  54. Dave Pinsen says: • Website
    @Anonymous
    I thought liberals were trying to avoid this, but the unsubtle Mae Ngai (http://www.unz.com/isteve/nyt-its-racist-to-not-let-cousin-abduls-father-in-law-immigrate/) barely even pauses to breathe let alone reflect before making the Norway-is-white/Norway-is-functional connection:

    Mr. Trump’s remarks were “sadly reminiscent of the language used by nativists and racists in the early 20th century against Eastern and Southern Europeans and Asians,” said Mae Ngai, an immigration historian at Columbia University.

    “Obviously he likes Norwegians because they are white,” she added. “But he knows nothing about Norway, a country with single-payer universal health care and free college education. Why would anyone want to leave Norway for the U.S.?”
     

    Um... for its Diversity?

    I know someone who left Norway for the U.S. (a Swede, who worked in Norway). He did it because he married an American woman and because he has his own business he can run from New York. When it gets too hot for him in New York, he goes to his cabin in northern Sweden.

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  55. Dave Pinsen says: • Website
    @anonymouslee
    One of the more pathetic aspects of contemporary political rhetoric is its failure to meet standards of persuasive argument most of us learned when we transitioned from crying infants to wheedling toddlers.


    The comments on articles like this and in Twitter debates are absolutely stuffed to the brim with variations of, "You oppose illegal immigrants from Mexico demanding free bilingual healthcare? Hmmm, I guess you didn't know *my* own mother is one of those illegal immigrants who never learned English and depends on the welfare state. How stupid do you feel now?"


    Errm, well, not at all. Unfortunately, when we Anglo men respond to such absurdly naked appeals to self-interest by saying nothing, in a gallant attempt to avoid acknowledging their humiliating failure to engage in rational discourse, they take our silence as embarrassment in our own stated view.

    It's facially retarded nonsense from your average low-IQ interlocutor and ostentatiously obnoxious chutzpah from smarter, more sophisticated intellectuals (though, as Steve has noted, a few generations in and even the Jews stop being in on the joke of their grandparents' droll feint of naively explicit solipsism).

    To the disinterested observer of rhetoric this most common tack is so spectacular a catastrophe as to beggar belief. Could a sane adult of intellectual maturity even conceive of such an approach?

    Imagine an English gentleman of a few centuries ago having a reasoned debate with a sincere opponent of aristocratic privilege in the political sphere. At some point our Tory partisan offers what he considers his ace in the hole, a dispositive climax, a triumphant coup de grace: "Yes, but I suppose you did not know that the entire time we were debating this, *my own father*, the Duke of Piddlington, was exercising his aristocratic rights in the House of Lords, warming the very seat that I will inherit for my own self. How foolish must you feel now, having opposed the legitimacy of aristocratic power! I will graciously accept your apology for daring to question that which benefits and comforts me."


    In a civilized society one is obliged to offer better reasons for his position than "because I want it this way." Only babies and tyrants dare offer nought but demands.

    Twitter put together a “moment” of immigrants responding to Trump’s alleged “shithole countries” comments. A few of them, like this one, thought their hypothetical future accomplishments were sufficient to refute Trump.

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    • Replies: @anonymouslee
    truly amazing.

    so she has, for now, only greedily sopped up the charity of our nation. a little humility and gratitude would be more appropriate than the entitlement, pride and derision she offers up here.
    , @Gunner
    The fact that she thinks a talk show host is something we need more of proves that she should move back.
    , @JerryC
    To paraphrase Ann Richards, she immigrated to third base and thinks she hit a triple.
    , @Corn
    “Content creator”

    Is that a euphemism for “f—-s around on Youtube all day”?
    , @wrd9
    The Australians aren't very keen on the Sudanese in their midst.

    http://www.theage.com.au/comment/the-age-editorial/carjackings-brawls-solving-melbournes-youth-crime-problem-a-task-for-us-all-20170314-guxxas.html
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  56. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    The only thing I know about Moldova is that it’s where the “epic sax guy” meme originates… I hereby christen Bret Stephens, Epic Saxhole Guy

    p.s. “Proud to Live in a Nation of Holers” sounds like a slogan Selina Meyer from “Veep” would use in some humiliating context

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    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    "Veep" is a funny show.
    , @wrd9
    C'mon, guys, how could you forget this? Famous Moldovan music. My kids loved it. Meme magic, too.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=as-ssEg52c4
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  57. @advancedatheist
    Jews need to follow their own psychotherapists' advice and get over themselves.

    The reaction is going to be ugly.
    And it will not be unprecedented.
    But they don’t seem to learn.
    The reactions stem from their irrational behavior to prevent the reaction they provoke

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  58. @Anonymous
    The only thing I know about Moldova is that it's where the "epic sax guy" meme originates... I hereby christen Bret Stephens, Epic Saxhole Guy

    p.s. "Proud to Live in a Nation of Holers" sounds like a slogan Selina Meyer from "Veep" would use in some humiliating context

    “Veep” is a funny show.

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    • Replies: @anonymouslee
    Their movie In The Loop was one of the best comedies of this generation and far and away the best movie about the Iraq War.
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  59. @Dave Pinsen
    Twitter put together a "moment" of immigrants responding to Trump's alleged "shithole countries" comments. A few of them, like this one, thought their hypothetical future accomplishments were sufficient to refute Trump.

    https://twitter.com/Guyefurula/status/951656808107651074

    truly amazing.

    so she has, for now, only greedily sopped up the charity of our nation. a little humility and gratitude would be more appropriate than the entitlement, pride and derision she offers up here.

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    • Replies: @Maj. Kong
    We are expected to defer to our newfound colonist betters, here to bring the light of diversity to our white bread wilderness.

    A lot of them get off on seeing YT humiliated, decades of center-right cuckold politicians have eagerly lain prostrate.
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  60. BB753 says:

    For globalists, there are only two kinds of countries in the world: shitholes and future shitholes. Countries no one wants to live in and countries everyone want to emigrate to. After enough immigration, the desirable country turns into a shithole, which sets everybody on the move again for a new country to ruin.
    There’s no magic dirt. It’s the people living there that turn countries into shitholes.

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  61. @Steve Sailer
    "Veep" is a funny show.

    Their movie In The Loop was one of the best comedies of this generation and far and away the best movie about the Iraq War.

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  62. @syonredux

    There’s something to be said for a few generations of “getting high on your own supply.” Steve has pointed out quite a bit how lacking in self-awareness the Jews have become.

     

    Indeed. Check out this little exchange that Steve has had with (((Yair Rosenberg))) (the parentheses are his, not mine) on Twitter:

    Israel's population is 20% Arab, most of whom are Muslim. Half its Jews are of Middle Eastern origin: Syrian, Iraqi, Iranian, etc. It airlifted tens of thousands of Ethiopians into the country. The homogeneous (white) America you advocate looks *nothing* like Israel today.
     
    https://twitter.com/Yair_Rosenberg/status/952333475486584833


    Note how he's boasting about intra-Jewish diversity in Israel while condemning White America for its homogeneity. A more honest observer would note all the intra-White diversity in America:Poles, Irish, Germans, Italians, Scandinavians, Greeks, etc. But I guess that Christian Europeans are just an undifferentiated mass to him.

    Ann, needless to say, he would never think of arguing that Israel should let in Muslim Arab immigrants to swell that 20% Arab figure....

    Another good example of comically poor argumentation where the author probably actually believes he’s nailed it.

    It’s wrong but it’s more shocking how plain dumb it is–just embarrassingly, humiliatingly, outrageously, awesomely, irredeemably stupid.

    These errors are quite literally more kindergarten than elementary. Eg, a third grader would call bullshit if someone tried the following argument:

    Timmy: I wish our teacher Mr. Jones was more like last year’s teacher Miss James.

    Billy: You think Mr. Jones should wear skirts? That’s what you’re saying since Miss James wears skirts.

    Timmy would roll his eyes and tell Billy and shut up for being a disingenuous turd.

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  63. Romanian says: • Website
    @Reg Cæsar
    Stupid-sounding name, too, in English. What was wrong with Moldavia?

    What's their tourist slogan? "I was bowled over by Moldover"?

    It is the trend of using the local name in lieu of the appropriate version in your own language. Moldova is what it is called in the Romanian language. May be a sign of snobbery to use it that way, like English speakers saying that they are going to Mejico instead of Mexico or to Ciudad de Mexico instead of Mexico City.

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  64. Romanian says: • Website

    Interesting that Bret Stephens’ ancestor could literally be the Moldavian Jew from Israel Zangwill’s “The Melting Pot”.

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  65. @syonredux

    Let’s not mince words: Moldova is a hole. Modify with any four letters you wish.

    I mention Moldova because it’s where my paternal grandfather was born in 1901. An anti-Semitic rampage in his hometown, Kishinev, soon forced his family to leave for New York, where my great-grandfather labored as a carpenter in the Brooklyn Navy Yard for eight dollars a week. …
     
    Let's get real; I don't really care about a bunch of Blacks in Haiti. It's just that I can only view immigration through a filiopietistic lens....

    My father worked at the Brooklyn Navy Yard before WW II. What he did there I have no idea.

    Recently entertained a youngish man of Phillipino descent – so he said – whose well-to-do wife had given him the boot. According to him, his grandfather worked at the Brooklyn Navy Yard.

    What is it about the iconic Brooklyn Navy Yard? These days I understand the site is used for Internet start-ups and other dreamed-up projects.

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  66. DFH says:
    @helena
    There's a new documentary on UK TV. Miriam Margoles (Professor something in HP) visiting middle-America to meet people who supported Trump. She stays with or visits people and sits round the table with them telling them she doesn't like their culture. What other culture would she do that to? But even though she says she finds the culture exclusive it is noticeable that immediately after each contact with a group of positive-thinking, outdoorsy, Americans, her whole demeanour briefly changes from disgruntled to happy.

    Keep it up America!!

    [UK isn't even allowed to see Trump in the flesh so toxic has the Left branded him - The Mayor of London is now dictating to the Queen who she can and can't invite to dinner.]

    A Jewish person lecturing criticising white Christian culture; stunningly original.

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  67. anon • Disclaimer says:

    He’s implying that because he is (in his own eyes) an immigrant success story that people coming form ****hole countries aren’t a problem whereas people like him are the cause of most of America’s current problems.

    People living as an ethno-cultural minority may feel that they’d be safer if everyone was an ethno-cultural minority – which is probably correct. However if a minimum level of ethnic and cultural cohesion is necessary for a nation/civilization to survive then deliberate balkanization to achieve “safety” will destroy the host.

    Sumer, Babylon, Assyria, Persia, Greece, Rome…Rome 2

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  68. As tourist destinations go, the Republic of Moldova — tucked between Ukraine and Romania — probably isn’t on anyone’s bucket list.

    I, Vigo, the Scourge of Carpathia, the Sorrow of Moldavia, command you!

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  69. Gunner says:
    @Anonymous
    NYT Pick comment:

    AA NY
    My grandparents and great grandparents came from Naples, Italy around 1900 when that "hole" was said to produce dirty, sneaky, criminally inclined immigrants. They were, to use the racist parlance of the day, "greaseballs."

    What is sad to me is that many of the people I know who still, amazingly, support Trump, have family backgrounds like mine. And these third generation "greaseballs", "micks" and "polaks" forget where they came from and what was said about their ancestors.

    Trump and his supporters truly do not get it. If 100 years from now the entire nation is a beautiful combination of brown and black and yellow, but still guided by the entire constitution and all of its ideals then the United States will continue to be the beacon of the world. If, on the other hand, 100 years from now the nation is ruled by a white elite that has closed its borders and trampled on the ideals of the 1st and 14th and many other amendments, then we will be a second rate nation with nothing to offer a hot divided world. What a s***hole place that will be.

    I'm still betting on the former.
    257 Recommend
     

    I am pretty sure AA NY’s family is blisteringly non-interracial.

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  70. Steve, did “immigration restriction at the point of bayonets” really send you to the fainting couch? Lmdo

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  71. rogue-one says:
    @Anonymous

    Yeah. Hard to tell if he’s retarded or willfully dense.
     
    @AlexNowrasteh "liked" it...

    willfully dense. It requires some degree of intelligence to keep selling jewish propaganda.

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  72. @syonredux

    Where did Ron Unz’s grandparents come from? Is he a holer? Sailer’s-were they all already here?
     
    My Dad's are from England and Scotland (18th century). My Mom's father was a German-speaking Ashkenazi from Latvia. Was '30s Latvia a hole? If it was, was it as much of a hole as '30s Haiti? As Contemporary Haiti?

    And even it was, why would that mean that I have to allow immigration from Haiti?

    Was ’30s Latvia a hole?

    Street washing truck cleaning Riga’s designated shitting street, circa 1930

    So, apparently it was quite sanitary.

    Riga had a more advanced water works in 1662 than Port-au-Prince does now:

    History
    …In 1662 Jacob Josten, a craftsman from Danzig, came to Rīga and within two years he had built a completely new water pumping station in a rampart tower at the end of Grecinieku Street by the Daugava River. Six horses were used to power the eight brass piston pumps that pumped the water from the Daugava River through a wooden pipe to a lead-lined, wooden storage tank at the top of the tower. The water flowed downwards from the 1080 cubic foot storage tank (about 30 m3) through wooden pipes that distributed the water to the various streets in the town. The water pressure in the supply network was 20 feet, i.e. six meters above street level. This pumping station operated without interruption for 200 years.

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  73. george says:

    The article, written by a Pogrom-American, shows some of the imperfect memory of the past after multiple generations.

    The place he claims his ancestors, assuming they were actually from there, fled from was most likely not really Moldova

    “The Kishinev pogrom took place in the capital of Bessarabia on April 6, 1903 ”

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bessarabia#Annexation_by_the_Russian_Empire

    Exactly what the place was called does not really matter, it was in the disputed area between the Ottoman and Russian empires, which guaranteed the place would be poor and violent. I don’t blame them for leaving. The Pogrom thing is a bit of a canard as most European immigrants to the US had some history of violence because Europe was violent. German Americans mostly fled the 30 years war, Napoleonic war, WWI, WWII, don’t be surprised if the shakeout from the GWOT sends Germans to the US. Probably a few other wars too. There are various other persecutions of various Europeans, usually more continuous than the sporatic pogroms.

    It is interesting to compare multigenerational with first generation Pogrom American immigrants. First generation Pogrom American Al Capp who penned the Lil Abner cartoons. Al Capp, who learned of his ancient homeland directly from his parents who actually lived in the boarder area between The German empire and the Russian empire described his parents homeland as Lower Slobbovia.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lower_Slobbovia

    Almost out of current headlines, Senator Jack Phogbound’s fact finding missions to Slobbovia were part of the Lil Abner series.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li%27l_Abner#Supporting_characters_and_villains

    American’s from flyover states should note the Lil Abner cartoon was mostly set in the town of Dogpatch which had the worst aspects of Appalachia and the deep US South. The only positive thing about Dogpatch was the mostly extremely goodlooking residents, who were to use the modern phrase objectified.

    Al Capp lived in an American that was the most modern place in the world, this talk of S holes might miss the point about what lots of the US is degenerating into. White death, Opiod crisis, ect

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  74. Tiny Duck says:

    white men are the scourge of the earth

    If they didn’t exist people could live in peace and quiet and we wouldn’t have greed peropkhilia war racism rape

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  75. @Steve Sailer
    Naples waste management issue
    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Uncollected garbage in Naples, 2010.
    The Naples waste management crisis is a series of events surrounding the lack of waste collection in the city of Naples that peaked in the summer of 2008, and regarding the disposal of the trash is currently unresolved. ...

    Reports during the summer of 2008 stated that the problem was caused at least in part by the Camorra, a powerful local mafia based in Campania, who had created a lucrative business in the municipal waste disposal business. Heavy metals, industrial waste, and chemicals and household waste are frequently mixed together, then dumped near roads and burned to avoid detection, leading to severe soil and air pollution.[3]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naples_waste_management_issue

    When we visited Naples in 2016 with a tour group, we were not allowed to leave the group or do any shopping on our own, even during the day.

    To me, the city just looked like Rome, only poorer and older. That is, apart from the ancient ruins. Pompeii and its tourist trappings are doing a brisk business right nearby. Allowing all those US/Japanese/Chinese/Korean visitors some safety is probably job number one for the mafia.

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  76. Gunner says:
    @Dave Pinsen
    Twitter put together a "moment" of immigrants responding to Trump's alleged "shithole countries" comments. A few of them, like this one, thought their hypothetical future accomplishments were sufficient to refute Trump.

    https://twitter.com/Guyefurula/status/951656808107651074

    The fact that she thinks a talk show host is something we need more of proves that she should move back.

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  77. Dmitry says:

    Moldova was doing well until the 1990s. It was the hinterland of a superpower, but not notably dysfunctional hinterland. What happened economically since, was something like the worst case scenario for what happens when a small country is severed off from a superpower.

    Although like with Ukraine, the economic figures do not add up.

    For example, only 422 people in the whole of Moldova declared a higher annual income than $60,000 in the year 2017. Yet there are dedicated Porsche dealerships, and areas of Kishinev are seen more Maseratis, Ferraris, Aston Martins, etc, – than you see in equivalent sized city of Tel Aviv .

    As for Stephens, it sounds like he went in the winter. Moldova receives the same amount of foreign visitors per year (3 million), as – pilgrimage hotspot – Israel does.

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  78. @anony-mouse
    Where did Ron Unz's grandparents come from? Is he a holer? Sailer's-were they all already here?

    Keep in mind just about that every country was a “hole” 100 years ago including most parts of the U.S, and some of the ones people claim were crappy such as Ireland, Italy or Poland were still probably far above the global average even if they weren’t as nice as England, France or Germany. So who we took in 100 years ago has no bearing on who we are obligated to take in today. There is no such thing as cosmic generational karma or whatever.

    For one thing there was way more room 100 years ago.

    Strangely enough some of my ancestors did come from Haiti, but way before it became a “hole,” back when it was the wealthy French colony of St. Domingue. They were merchants who fled the slave revolt, which slaughtered virtually all the French whites and most mulattoes left on the island, not just the excessively cruel plantation owners.

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  79. @anon

    If 100 years from now the entire nation is a beautiful combination of brown and black and yellow, but still guided by the entire constitution and all of its ideals then the United States will continue to be the beacon of the world.
     
    That's why Liberia is the beacon of the world.


    If, on the other hand, 100 years from now the nation is ruled by a white elite that has closed its borders and trampled on the ideals of the 1st and 14th and many other amendments,
     
    I wonder if this woman (and I am sure that it is a woman) is aware that whites are the only ones who actually give a crap about the First Amendment.

    Actually, I don't. She is clearly a New York Times reader, so how would she ever learn something like that?

    “That’s why Liberia is the beacon of the world.”

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberian_nationality_law

    “The Republic of Liberia was founded by African slaves from North America by the American Colonization Society and returned to establish a republic on African soil. Nationality law is given in the Aliens and Nationality Law of 1973, based on its 1847 Constitution. Human rights activists have described current citizenship laws as explicitly racist, as it requires being black as a prerequisite to citizenship.[1] The first constitution allowed for women to transmit their nationality to their children, although multiple citizenship was not permitted nor is it permitted in revisions of the constitution.

    Liberia confers nationality solely on the basis of race. Under the current Liberian constitution, only persons of black African origins may obtain citizenship, although Liberian law allows members of other races to hold permanent residency status. Within Liberia itself, the wider implications of the policy are part of a heated debate in which some native Liberians themselves have acknowledged that non-African permanent residents are crucial contributors to the country’s economic activities and innovation system, mainly the wealthy Lebanese community.[2]

    Features of the first constitution that have been upheld include:

    Article V, Section 13 of the 1847 Constitution which states: “The great object of forming these Colonies, being to provide a home for the dispersed and oppressed children of Africa, and to regenerate and enlighten this benighted continent, none but persons of colour shall be eligible to citizenship in this Republic.” The phrasing “persons of colour” was changed to “Negroes or persons of Negro descent” in a 1955 revision.

    The Liberian legislature was charged with establishing criteria for naturalisation. All applicants must be black Africans to be naturalized.

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  80. Maj. Kong says:
    @anonymouslee
    truly amazing.

    so she has, for now, only greedily sopped up the charity of our nation. a little humility and gratitude would be more appropriate than the entitlement, pride and derision she offers up here.

    We are expected to defer to our newfound colonist betters, here to bring the light of diversity to our white bread wilderness.

    A lot of them get off on seeing YT humiliated, decades of center-right cuckold politicians have eagerly lain prostrate.

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  81. @Achmed E. Newman
    Let me get this straight. Mr. Stephens is proud to live in this country when it's full of people from shitholes. I thought multiculturalism meant that these holers should be proud of the shitholes they came from and want to spread each of the many ideas of what a true shithole is throughout America. Our country will then become swiss cheese of shitholes, but what new lands will we all run to then?

    Don't tell us what we should be proud of, Bret Stephens. From reading iSteve, I've been just getting sick of your hole shitholier-than-thou attitude lately!

    BTW, even if Bret's Dad had been 30 or so, $8/day was pretty good money back then.

    >shitholier-than-thou

    That’s very good. Shall plagiarize.

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    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    No charge, sir. I'm honored.

    Also, I know you've got bills ... oh, and that big hole in your yard, the bottom of which could be compared to, say, Haiti. ;-}
    , @SMK
    Stephen's hatred of white gentiles is obsessive and virulent and pathological, probably genocidal in his cryptic fantasies, or when talking in private to those with similar passions, vengeance for the Holocaust. To Stephens, white gentiles as a group are Nazis.

    And what's his paint(s), exactly, about Moldova? That because Moldova, a white country, is a "hole," Moldovan in particular and Europeans in general are precisely the same as Haitians and Negros from the countries of Sub-Saharan Africa in statistical intelligence and so forth? Because Moldova is a "hole," the U.S. should not only condone but celebrate an invasion of tens of millions of legal and illegal aliens from hell-holes like Haiti and Sub-Saharan Africa, Mexico and Central America, the Islamic nations and cultures of North and East Africa and the Middle-East, including Somalia? An invasion that will soon turn the U.S. into a nonwhite-majority hell-hole but one in which the rise of a Nazi-like regime will be impossible.

    Lastly, one reason "Moldova" is such a "hole" is because it was ruled for decades by communists, the apparatchiks and commissars of an ideology created by Jews.

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  82. @John Derbyshire
    >shitholier-than-thou

    That's very good. Shall plagiarize.

    No charge, sir. I’m honored.

    Also, I know you’ve got bills … oh, and that big hole in your yard, the bottom of which could be compared to, say, Haiti. ;-}

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  83. Dmitry says:
    @syonredux

    There’s something to be said for a few generations of “getting high on your own supply.” Steve has pointed out quite a bit how lacking in self-awareness the Jews have become.

     

    Indeed. Check out this little exchange that Steve has had with (((Yair Rosenberg))) (the parentheses are his, not mine) on Twitter:

    Israel's population is 20% Arab, most of whom are Muslim. Half its Jews are of Middle Eastern origin: Syrian, Iraqi, Iranian, etc. It airlifted tens of thousands of Ethiopians into the country. The homogeneous (white) America you advocate looks *nothing* like Israel today.
     
    https://twitter.com/Yair_Rosenberg/status/952333475486584833


    Note how he's boasting about intra-Jewish diversity in Israel while condemning White America for its homogeneity. A more honest observer would note all the intra-White diversity in America:Poles, Irish, Germans, Italians, Scandinavians, Greeks, etc. But I guess that Christian Europeans are just an undifferentiated mass to him.

    Ann, needless to say, he would never think of arguing that Israel should let in Muslim Arab immigrants to swell that 20% Arab figure....

    Note how he’s boasting about intra-Jewish diversity in Israel while condemning White America for its homogeneity. A more honest observer would note all the intra-White diversity in America:Poles, Irish, Germans, Italians, Scandinavians, Greeks, etc. But I guess that Christian Europeans are just an undifferentiated mass to him.

    It’s not completely accurately written. In your case – you mention two groups: mostly pale people (Poles, Irish, Germans, Scandinavians) and then mostly light brown people (Italians, Greeks.) In this example, there is more cultural diversity, but two races.

    Whereas in Israel, you have pale people, light-brown people, medium-brown people, dark-brown people, black-people, etc, – i.e. most types in the planet represented. And the main divide in the country is religion, not the different races.

    Israel is one of the more racially diverse small countries in the world. At the same time, it has a conscious immigration policy, and the government is desperately trying to engineer its demographics. But the divide in this is again religion, not race.

    Israel is a very useful example for showing a kind of new-world country, where the government is trying to improve its demographics. Western countries could emulate the restrictiveness of the immigration system, only using different variables for the selection process. But if you want to put it up as an example of homogeneity? It’s the opposite of that. If you want example of homogeneity, look at places like Japan.

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    It’s not completely accurately written. In your case – you mention two groups: mostly pale people (Poles, Irish, Germans, Scandinavians) and then mostly light brown people (Italians, Greeks.) In this example, there is more cultural diversity, but two races.

    Whereas in Israel, you have pale people, light-brown people, medium-brown people, dark-brown people, black-people, etc, – i.e. most types in the planet represented.
     
    Not a lot of Israeli citizens are South Asian or East Asian. That's a big chunk of humanity.....

    And the main divide in the country is religion, not the different races.
     
    So, he wants the USA to split along religious lines....That could work....Although it wouldn't exactly put the Jews in a good position....

    Israel is one of the more racially diverse small countries in the world. At the same time, it has a conscious immigration policy, and the government is desperately trying to engineer its demographics. But the divide in this is again religion, not race.
     
    De facto racial policy. The bulk of the world's Jews are Caucasoids. And the attempt to assimilate Ethiopian Jews has not gone well....

    . But if you want to put it up as an example of homogeneity? It’s the opposite of that. If you want example of homogeneity, look at places like Japan.

     

    Actually, Israeli demographics are closer to our own. Both countries have alien minorities (Latinx, Blacks, and Muslims in the USA, Arabs in Israel). That's why Israel is a good example for the USA to follow. Unlike us, they are trying to prevent an ALIEN NATION scenario,
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  84. Jack D says:
    @syonredux

    Where did Ron Unz’s grandparents come from? Is he a holer? Sailer’s-were they all already here?
     
    My Dad's are from England and Scotland (18th century). My Mom's father was a German-speaking Ashkenazi from Latvia. Was '30s Latvia a hole? If it was, was it as much of a hole as '30s Haiti? As Contemporary Haiti?

    And even it was, why would that mean that I have to allow immigration from Haiti?

    If your grandfather was speaking German in Latvia he was speaking it to himself because everyone else spoke either Yiddish or Latvian. Yiddish was considered among some snotty people to be a sort of pidgin German and low class (when in fact it is a language unto itself), so Jews who were socially ambitious tried to switch to German (if you were even more ambitious you would convert to Catholicism). This worked OK in Vienna or Prague but there was not enough of a German speaking community in Latvia to make this stick. You really have to be suspicious of family lore because people tell stories that are self-aggrandizing. Instead of hearing it from your grandfather or your mother, you should have heard these stories from his neighbors – “Oh Moshe, he puts on such high class airs. He calls himself Moritz and pretends that he is speaking German.”

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    If your grandfather was speaking German in Latvia he was speaking it to himself because everyone else spoke either Yiddish or Latvian.
     
    Before their flight at the end of WW2*, there was a German-speaking community in Latvia:

    The Baltic Germans (German: Deutsch-Balten or Deutschbalten, later Baltendeutsche) are ethnic German inhabitants of the eastern shores of the Baltic Sea, in what today are Estonia and Latvia. Since their expulsion from Estonia and Latvia and resettlement during the upheavals and aftermath of the Second World War, Baltic Germans have markedly declined as a geographically determined ethnic group.[3] The largest groups of present-day descendants of the Baltic Germans are found in Germany and Canada.[citation needed] It is estimated that several thousand still reside in Latvia and Estonia.
     

    The Baltic German population never surpassed more than 10% of the total population.[5] In 1881 there were 180,000 Baltic Germans in Russia's Baltic provinces, but by 1914 this number had declined to 162,000.[6] In 1881 there were approximately 46,700 Germans in Estonia (5.3% of the population).[7] According to the Russian Empire Census of 1897, there were 120,191 Germans in Latvia, or 6.2% of the population.[8]
     

    In 1925 there were 70,964 Germans in Latvia (3.6%) and 62,144 in 1935 (3.2% of population). Riga remained by far the largest German center with 38,523 Germans residing there in 1935, while Tallinn then had 6,575 Germans.[16]

     

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltic_Germans


    *https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_evacuation_from_East-Central_Europe_near_the_end_of_World_War_II
    , @syonredux

    In the province of Kurzeme and in the city of Riga, some sections of the Jewish population had, during the latter part of the 19th century, begun to acquire the German language instead of Yiddish; in the 1890’s, Russian was also acquired.
     

    Multilingualism in Latvia was not limited to the Jews. To understand conditions in the country correctly, one must bear in mind that Lettish was young, not only as an official language, but also as a language of civilization in general. German, the official language in the country until the 1880’s, and Russian, the language of the government and schools between that time and the First World War, consequently enjoyed much more prestige even among the Letts themselves than they would have as languages of rather inconsiderable minority groups within the country. Even the Lettish intellectuals, including the founders and leaders of the state, had received their education in one of these languages. During the period of independence many Letts still had to use Russian or German in business dealings.
     
    https://www.jewishgen.org/courland/consular/cons_jews.htm#lang

    In 1930, 45.82% of the pupils in Jewish schools studied in Yiddish, 36.05% in Hebrew, 13.077% in German and 5.05% in Russian.
     
    http://www.mfa.gov.lv/en/about-the-ministry/publications/latvia#1-23

    Jews became permanent inhabitants of Courland in the 18th century. Especially favorable was the ruling of Duke Ernst Johann Biron (1737-1747, then 1762-1769, the favourite of Russian Empress Anna Ivanovna), who even nominated a Jew Louis Lipmann to be his chief financial advisor. In the 18th century a lot of skilful Jewish workers and artisans (construction workers, roof-makers, inlay workers, tailors) arrived in Courland from Germany, as well as a number of medical doctors, the latter forming a core of Jewish intelligentsia, actively confirming and bearing the ideas of Jewish enlightenment – haskala. One of the founders of haskala movement in Courland was the medical doctor and philosopher Marcus Hertz (1743 - 1803). The German way of life (milieu) dominated in Courland, having a great impact on the Jews. It is important to stress that mostly German (and not Yiddish) language was the spoken language of the Jewish community and continued until World War II.

     

    https://www.jewishgen.org/latvia/historyOfLatvia.html
    , @Rosamond Vincy
    Reminds me of old joke from The Joys of Yiddish: young prat named La Fontaine is boasting endlessly about everything important he has ever done, everywhere important he's ever been, and everyone important he's ever met. Old guy overhearing gets fed up: "Listen, 'La Fontaine,' get off your high horse. I knew your grandfather, and he changed his name from 'Schpritzwasser.' And my grandfather knew HIS grandfather, and HIS name was "Moishie the Pischer." So don't give me any airs, 'La Fontaine.'"
    , @3g4me
    @64 Jack D: " Yiddish was considered among some snotty people to be a sort of pidgin German and low class (when in fact it is a language unto itself)"

    Yiddish is an amalgamation of pidgin German and Russian written in the Hebrew alphabet. Jews demand its recognition as a "language" just as Haitians pretend they speak French.
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  85. Joe Walker says: • Website
    @advancedatheist
    Jews need to follow their own psychotherapists' advice and get over themselves.

    And preferably move to Israel.

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  86. I mention Moldova because it’s where my paternal grandfather was born in 1901. An anti-Semitic rampage in his hometown, Kishinev, soon forced his family to leave for New York…

    Kishinev was in the Russian Empire in 1901; in fact, Kishinev is the Russian name of the city called Chisinau in Romanian. I wonder why Stephens didn’t say his grandpap was from Russia.

    Also, why is it OK for Stephens to call Moldova a shithole, but not OK for Trump to call Haiti a shithole? Will the NYT seek out any Moldovans to see whether their feelings were hurt?

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  87. Joe Walker says: • Website
    @Achilles

    it’s where my paternal grandfather was born in 1901. An anti-Semitic rampage in his hometown, Kishinev, soon forced his family to leave....
     
    Of all the terrible luck!

    The grandfather fled one anti-Semitic shit-hole only for the grandson to end up in another anti-Semitic shit-hole in which much of the white gentile population resists committing demographic, cultural and economic suicide through open borders Third-World immigration and 'free trade' deindustrialization for the purpose of furthering global Jewish group interest, as set out and promoted by Stephens and his allies.

    And I couldn't even begin to imagine the horrors the Kristol family must have suffered at the hands of gentile Americans!

    Isn’t it amazing how Jews always end up surrounded by anti-Semites? It’s almost as if they were doing something to antagonize the local gentile population.

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  88. Dmitry says:
    @syonredux

    There’s something to be said for a few generations of “getting high on your own supply.” Steve has pointed out quite a bit how lacking in self-awareness the Jews have become.

     

    Indeed. Check out this little exchange that Steve has had with (((Yair Rosenberg))) (the parentheses are his, not mine) on Twitter:

    Israel's population is 20% Arab, most of whom are Muslim. Half its Jews are of Middle Eastern origin: Syrian, Iraqi, Iranian, etc. It airlifted tens of thousands of Ethiopians into the country. The homogeneous (white) America you advocate looks *nothing* like Israel today.
     
    https://twitter.com/Yair_Rosenberg/status/952333475486584833


    Note how he's boasting about intra-Jewish diversity in Israel while condemning White America for its homogeneity. A more honest observer would note all the intra-White diversity in America:Poles, Irish, Germans, Italians, Scandinavians, Greeks, etc. But I guess that Christian Europeans are just an undifferentiated mass to him.

    Ann, needless to say, he would never think of arguing that Israel should let in Muslim Arab immigrants to swell that 20% Arab figure....

    This guy – Yair Rosenberg – has blocked me on my Twitter account with 10 followers last year. I wrote some polite comment under one of his posts, correcting a pro-Democrat economic argument he made. Then when I checked back a few minutes later it said ‘blocked’ on his account and you cannot even read the tweets without logging out. The guy cannot bear dissenting views, even when they come from polite people.

    The only other one I had this blocking experience with is Louise Mensch. Even psychos like Zhirinovsky allow us to freely comment under their posts.

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  89. JerryC says:
    @Dave Pinsen
    Twitter put together a "moment" of immigrants responding to Trump's alleged "shithole countries" comments. A few of them, like this one, thought their hypothetical future accomplishments were sufficient to refute Trump.

    https://twitter.com/Guyefurula/status/951656808107651074

    To paraphrase Ann Richards, she immigrated to third base and thinks she hit a triple.

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  90. Joe Walker says: • Website
    @Anonymous
    Check out the "Disputatious Jew" (their self-description) chiming in:

    I think @Steve_Sailer is making the common alt-right/antisemitic complaint: “Jews in the US advocate open borders, but Jews in Israel only allow Jews to immigrate.” While this complaint involves racist stereotyping, it IS difficult to immigrate to Israel if you’re not Jewish

    So it’s important to refute this alt-right/antisemitic /white nationalist argument by noting that Jews are a historically oppressed minority, while white people are not. Hence, they are making a false equivalence between white people and Jewish people
     

    Interlocutor:

    Yair is the one holding up Israel as a paragon of the multiculturalism he advocates for the USA/Europe while using an anti-semitic attack in Paris to justify the need for Israel as an ethnostate. It's hypocrisy bordering on gaslighting.
     
    Response:

    The fact that Jews are a historically oppressed minority who continue to be subject to antisemitic attacks does in fact justify why Israel needs to exist
     
    Perpetual victims who've had it pretty good here, repaying the favor by turning us into the victimized minorities they see themselves as, while working overtime to deprive us of the moral rights they derive from their victimhood (like having one's own country). Then they make us pay for this ethnostate they'll be shrieking at us forever that we're never allowed to have for ourselves.

    And despite having the power to do all this they see themselves as an "oppressed minority".

    And they wonder why they're historically disliked. ****ing unbelievable.

    With the Jews it is always “do as we say, not as we do”.

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  91. El Dato says:
    @slumber_j
    You need to reassess your thinking. After all, there's for example Haitian-American Jean-Michel Basquiat's record-holding painting:

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&ved=0ahUKEwiIjJXQ4NbYAhUXzWMKHQmaAJQQjRwIBw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.telegraph.co.uk%2Fnews%2F2017%2F05%2F19%2Fbasquiatpainting-fetches-record-1105-million-new-york-auction%2F&psig=AOvVaw1pYdItsOcZTgMlG24ZXLYe&ust=1515995269073103

    Sadly, his long-ago drug overdose renders Mr. Basquiat himself unavailable as an example of Haitian-American excellence. But art is eternal!

    “Untitled” was virtually unknown before it was unveiled at Sotheby’s weeks ago.

    …and there are reasons for that!

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  92. Sean says:

    Immigrants self-select.

    By Stephens’s own account, his ancestor didn’t self select, he was driven out his homeland, so the argument isn’t very pertinent to the case. Maybe it’s Leo Strauss style writing whereby the real point is camouflaged in an apparently trivial aside. Stephens’s great grandfather was likely the most intelligent carpenter in the shipyard, for his kop was never goyishe.

    I’m not alone. America is a nation of holers. It is an improbable yet wildly successful experiment in the transformation — by means of hope, opportunity and ambition — of holers into doers, makers, thinkers and givers. Are you of Irish descent? Italian? Polish? Scottish? Chinese? Chances are, your ancestors did not get on a boat because life in the old country was placid and prosperous and grandpa owned a bank. With few exceptions, Americans are the dregs of the wine, the chaff of the wheat.

    More of Stephens ancestors were doing something like banking than any Irish, Italian, Pole or Scot. His immigrant ancestor working as a carpenter in the US is worth mentioning, but why did Stephen think that worth mentioning: what did the great grandfather’s ancestors (poor Jews had much lower fertility) do for a living back in Moldavia

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kishinev_pogrom#Russian_response

    The Russian ambassador to the United States, Count Arthur Cassini, characterised the first outbreak as a reaction of financially hard-pressed peasants to Jewish creditors in an interview on May 18, 1903:

    The situation in Russia, so far as the Jews are concerned is just this: It is the peasant against the money lender, and not the Russians against the Jews. There is no feeling against the Jew in Russia because of religion. It is as I have said—the Jew ruins the peasants, with the result that conflicts occur when the latter have lost all their worldly possessions and have nothing to live upon. There are many good Jews in Russia, and they are respected. Jewish genius is appreciated in Russia, and the Jewish artist honored. Jews also appear in the financial world in Russia. The Russian Government affords the same protection to the Jews that it does to any other of its citizens, and when a riot occurs and Jews are attacked the officials immediately take steps to apprehend those who began the riot, and visit severe punishment upon them.”[9]

    A memorial to the 1903 pogroms now stands in Kishinev.

    Stephens considers it self evident that his ancestors, far from arriving with the very greatest of advantages, actually bootstrapped their intelligence up by dint of the superior moral qualities that are universal to immigrants. But immigrants are hardly ever the wretched of the Earth.

    http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/headtohead/2016/01/transcript-paul-collier-immigration-160104190604853.html

    Mehdi Hasan: Many would say Haiti is an aberration given its history of natural disasters and next, being next door to the United States, but I take your point, if we were to, if we were to all agree with your thesis on this particular point, about the poorest countries, why should I not try and leave Haiti and try and get a better job rather than stay in a country ruled by dictators, dominated by corruption, blighted by natural disaster, purely by the bad luck of my birth?

    Paul Collier: People don’t have the right to live anywhere in the world.

    Mehdi Hasan: But they have the right to leave their country.

    Paul Collier: And…

    Mehdi Hasan: That’s a human right.

    Paul Collier: Of course.

    Mehdi Hasan: You would admit, as you do in the book, just for context, I think it’s something like $400 billion dollars in remittances goes back from skilled migrants to those poor countries.

    Paul Collier: But if those people, because they are productive, skilled, energetic, if they’d stayed in their country they would also have produced more than 400 billion.

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  93. @anony-mouse
    Where did Ron Unz's grandparents come from? Is he a holer? Sailer's-were they all already here?

    Steve’s post and this thread is not so much about the shame argument but whether this argument has run out of steam, whether there is a Glenn Reynold’s “preference cascade” brewing to not only make the shame argument ineffective but to make it the target of invective.

    My parents were the goodpersecutedrefugeeimmigrants from 70 years ago. Owing to how the post Cold War order is shaking out, think of Mr. Putin as a badperson and think of whoever our Deep State installed to lead Ukraine as a goodperson, the goodpersecuted switch sides with the badpersecutors. Or at least what Mencius Moldbug called the Narrative viewed it that way.

    My personal tipping point started about 20 years ago when there was a big kumbaya effort to sponsor newly minted goodpersecutedrefugeeimmigrants to come into the community. Persons being my neighbors in the Old Country on an alternative Hugh Everett-quantum mechanical time line who would have liked to see me dead, only they were my neighbors in this time line.

    Oh, no, my fears were unfounded. For example, my coreligionists (entirely different ancient hatred) with the 26+6=1 bumper stickers would never shoot anyone stateside — Momma told me they were running guns out of the social hall in the church basement so any shooting would take place back in the Old Country.

    So on shaming people of recent immigrant heritage for supporting Mr. Trump, keep it up!

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  94. Corn says:
    @Dave Pinsen
    Twitter put together a "moment" of immigrants responding to Trump's alleged "shithole countries" comments. A few of them, like this one, thought their hypothetical future accomplishments were sufficient to refute Trump.

    https://twitter.com/Guyefurula/status/951656808107651074

    “Content creator”

    Is that a euphemism for “f—-s around on Youtube all day”?

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  95. syonredux says:
    @Jack D
    If your grandfather was speaking German in Latvia he was speaking it to himself because everyone else spoke either Yiddish or Latvian. Yiddish was considered among some snotty people to be a sort of pidgin German and low class (when in fact it is a language unto itself), so Jews who were socially ambitious tried to switch to German (if you were even more ambitious you would convert to Catholicism). This worked OK in Vienna or Prague but there was not enough of a German speaking community in Latvia to make this stick. You really have to be suspicious of family lore because people tell stories that are self-aggrandizing. Instead of hearing it from your grandfather or your mother, you should have heard these stories from his neighbors - "Oh Moshe, he puts on such high class airs. He calls himself Moritz and pretends that he is speaking German."

    If your grandfather was speaking German in Latvia he was speaking it to himself because everyone else spoke either Yiddish or Latvian.

    Before their flight at the end of WW2*, there was a German-speaking community in Latvia:

    The Baltic Germans (German: Deutsch-Balten or Deutschbalten, later Baltendeutsche) are ethnic German inhabitants of the eastern shores of the Baltic Sea, in what today are Estonia and Latvia. Since their expulsion from Estonia and Latvia and resettlement during the upheavals and aftermath of the Second World War, Baltic Germans have markedly declined as a geographically determined ethnic group.[3] The largest groups of present-day descendants of the Baltic Germans are found in Germany and Canada.[citation needed] It is estimated that several thousand still reside in Latvia and Estonia.

    The Baltic German population never surpassed more than 10% of the total population.[5] In 1881 there were 180,000 Baltic Germans in Russia’s Baltic provinces, but by 1914 this number had declined to 162,000.[6] In 1881 there were approximately 46,700 Germans in Estonia (5.3% of the population).[7] According to the Russian Empire Census of 1897, there were 120,191 Germans in Latvia, or 6.2% of the population.[8]

    In 1925 there were 70,964 Germans in Latvia (3.6%) and 62,144 in 1935 (3.2% of population). Riga remained by far the largest German center with 38,523 Germans residing there in 1935, while Tallinn then had 6,575 Germans.[16]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltic_Germans

    *https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_evacuation_from_East-Central_Europe_near_the_end_of_World_War_II

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  96. syonredux says:
    @Jack D
    If your grandfather was speaking German in Latvia he was speaking it to himself because everyone else spoke either Yiddish or Latvian. Yiddish was considered among some snotty people to be a sort of pidgin German and low class (when in fact it is a language unto itself), so Jews who were socially ambitious tried to switch to German (if you were even more ambitious you would convert to Catholicism). This worked OK in Vienna or Prague but there was not enough of a German speaking community in Latvia to make this stick. You really have to be suspicious of family lore because people tell stories that are self-aggrandizing. Instead of hearing it from your grandfather or your mother, you should have heard these stories from his neighbors - "Oh Moshe, he puts on such high class airs. He calls himself Moritz and pretends that he is speaking German."

    In the province of Kurzeme and in the city of Riga, some sections of the Jewish population had, during the latter part of the 19th century, begun to acquire the German language instead of Yiddish; in the 1890’s, Russian was also acquired.

    Multilingualism in Latvia was not limited to the Jews. To understand conditions in the country correctly, one must bear in mind that Lettish was young, not only as an official language, but also as a language of civilization in general. German, the official language in the country until the 1880’s, and Russian, the language of the government and schools between that time and the First World War, consequently enjoyed much more prestige even among the Letts themselves than they would have as languages of rather inconsiderable minority groups within the country. Even the Lettish intellectuals, including the founders and leaders of the state, had received their education in one of these languages. During the period of independence many Letts still had to use Russian or German in business dealings.

    https://www.jewishgen.org/courland/consular/cons_jews.htm#lang

    In 1930, 45.82% of the pupils in Jewish schools studied in Yiddish, 36.05% in Hebrew, 13.077% in German and 5.05% in Russian.

    http://www.mfa.gov.lv/en/about-the-ministry/publications/latvia#1-23

    Jews became permanent inhabitants of Courland in the 18th century. Especially favorable was the ruling of Duke Ernst Johann Biron (1737-1747, then 1762-1769, the favourite of Russian Empress Anna Ivanovna), who even nominated a Jew Louis Lipmann to be his chief financial advisor. In the 18th century a lot of skilful Jewish workers and artisans (construction workers, roof-makers, inlay workers, tailors) arrived in Courland from Germany, as well as a number of medical doctors, the latter forming a core of Jewish intelligentsia, actively confirming and bearing the ideas of Jewish enlightenment – haskala. One of the founders of haskala movement in Courland was the medical doctor and philosopher Marcus Hertz (1743 – 1803). The German way of life (milieu) dominated in Courland, having a great impact on the Jews. It is important to stress that mostly German (and not Yiddish) language was the spoken language of the Jewish community and continued until World War II.

    https://www.jewishgen.org/latvia/historyOfLatvia.html

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    • Replies: @Jack D
    So was your grandfather from Riga? When did he leave?

    I don't know your family and it's possible that your grandfather really was from the small German speaking Jewish minority but statistically far more Jews in Latvia spoke Yiddish (and had migrated into Latvia from the Pale in Russian times - the pre-Russian rule German speaking Jewish community was small (but wealthy). German speaking Jews were like modern non-Orthodox American Jews - upscale but not very fertile, while the Yiddish speakers were like today's ultra-Orthodox - poor but lots and lots of kids, so over time they became numerically dominant. Even the ones listed as being educated in Hebrew would not have spoken it at home - they would have spoken Yiddish. Maybe 4 out of 5 would have spoken Yiddish as their language at home and the rest probably spoke it too so they could interact with the rest of the community.

    Growing up, one of our neighboring Jewish chicken farmers was a couple from Warsaw who seemed odd to me because they (unlike most of the others including my parents) spoke Polish to each other because they had come from an educated, assimilated background. My parents spoke Polish but not to each other (except when they didn't want me to understand what they were saying). OTOH, when these neighbors spoke to my parents, they spoke Yiddish to them - they could speak it just fine (it's probably what they spoke to their grandparents growing up), it just wasn't their primary language.
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  97. eah says:

    $5 verdient.

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  98. syonredux says:
    @Anonymous
    Check out the "Disputatious Jew" (their self-description) chiming in:

    I think @Steve_Sailer is making the common alt-right/antisemitic complaint: “Jews in the US advocate open borders, but Jews in Israel only allow Jews to immigrate.” While this complaint involves racist stereotyping, it IS difficult to immigrate to Israel if you’re not Jewish

    So it’s important to refute this alt-right/antisemitic /white nationalist argument by noting that Jews are a historically oppressed minority, while white people are not. Hence, they are making a false equivalence between white people and Jewish people
     

    Interlocutor:

    Yair is the one holding up Israel as a paragon of the multiculturalism he advocates for the USA/Europe while using an anti-semitic attack in Paris to justify the need for Israel as an ethnostate. It's hypocrisy bordering on gaslighting.
     
    Response:

    The fact that Jews are a historically oppressed minority who continue to be subject to antisemitic attacks does in fact justify why Israel needs to exist
     
    Perpetual victims who've had it pretty good here, repaying the favor by turning us into the victimized minorities they see themselves as, while working overtime to deprive us of the moral rights they derive from their victimhood (like having one's own country). Then they make us pay for this ethnostate they'll be shrieking at us forever that we're never allowed to have for ourselves.

    And despite having the power to do all this they see themselves as an "oppressed minority".

    And they wonder why they're historically disliked. ****ing unbelievable.

    Jeffrey Goldberg once made an affirmative action argument for the state of Israel. See, the world is full of non-Jewish states, but there is only one Jewish state…..

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  99. Conatus says:

    Many years ago i toured Moldova as part of those two week Russia tours. It was still the USSR and Moldova was part of it. There was hardly anybody on the trip because the Russians had just invaded Afghanistan. They took us to a wine tasting place out in the country becasue Kishinev had nothing to see.
    My impression was neutral, probably because the weather was good, a warm set of days in the fall. I saw some skinny dogs running loose but I was not struck by the poverty, perhaps they were careful where we drove on the bus.
    In Kishinev I recall being grabbed by some oversized residents who shouted loudly “No war..No war!” I was happy to agree. He smiled. I did too.

    There was survey saying Moldova was the unhappiest place in the world.

    http://www.welcome-moldova.com/articles/moldova-unhappiest-country.shtml

    Probably because they are a tiny tribe at a crossroads of the world and they know geopolitical forces control their fortunes not themselves.

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  100. JohnnyD says:

    Brett Stephens never disappoints!

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  101. Romanian says: • Website
    @Hugh
    Moldova is not a shithole country.

    It is poor, but the people are civilised and recognisably European. The girls are also famous for their beauty which doesn’t hurt my anti-Stephens case.

    Things will improve greatly when it is reunited with the Romanian motherland, whose GDP/capita is six times higher and, for all its ills, is still much better run than Moldova. /irredentism

    And, yeah, they are lookers. Too bad they are also exploited mercilessly for it, as is the whole of Eastern Europe. I think the beauty thing, aside from the regional gene pool and the selection in environments with high male mortality, is also due to the greater femininity of the women in terms of culture, not having been spoiled in great numbers by ideologies adverse to beauty. So even a homelier woman would take care of herself, dress as well as she can afford, wear make-up etc and thereby increase her natural appeal.

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    • Replies: @BB753
    What's the deal with the breakaway part of Moldavia which claims to be independent, called Transnitria? Mostly Russian and Ukrainian populated, I guess.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transnistria
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  102. @syonredux

    My grandparents and great grandparents came from Naples, Italy around 1900 when that “hole” was said to produce dirty, sneaky, criminally inclined immigrants. They were, to use the racist parlance of the day, “greaseballs.”

    What is sad to me is that many of the people I know who still, amazingly, support Trump, have family backgrounds like mine. And these third generation “greaseballs”, “micks” and “polaks” forget where they came from and what was said about their ancestors.
     
    It's moronic comments like this that make me wish that America had closed her doors to immigration from, say, 1800 on.

    No tortellini, black and white pudden for breakfast, matza ball soup, or kluski with kielbasa? Fahgettaboudit.

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  103. @Whiskey
    Typical feminine feelz garbage. A man would object on grounds of things of interest to men. Such as "we need cheap cannon fodder for imperial wars, our valuable soldiers cannot be wasted in human minefield detector attacks!" Things like that.

    Rather, the response to this should be: A. The Third World is with very few exception, a giant s-hole. B. They've had nearly 70 years to run things themselves and have made a mess of things. C. We should run things for them as IMPERIAL POWERS DENYING THEM ANY VOTING RIGHTS or any political voice but providing clean water, safe food, decent schools, and a giant China style police state out of XianXing.

    Since the Third World cannot run itself and its one small fragile planet, time for Whites and Chinese/Koreans/Japanese/Thais/Vietnamese and maybe Malaysians to step in and run things. America, Europe and China can step in run things. Third World peoples are FAILURES and should be treated as global failures.

    We ought to provide a good offense as a good defense. That flipping universal globalism around, means Third World people not only don't have rights to move here, they don't have rights to rule themselves as they are total failures. They can't even organize indoor plumbing and sewage treatment plants. Ex-Communist hell-holes like Romania have at least THAT. So why not?

    In other words, the British Empire, which actually did more good for the countries to whom it brought civilization than any PBS program will ever acknowledge.

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  104. @helena
    There's a new documentary on UK TV. Miriam Margoles (Professor something in HP) visiting middle-America to meet people who supported Trump. She stays with or visits people and sits round the table with them telling them she doesn't like their culture. What other culture would she do that to? But even though she says she finds the culture exclusive it is noticeable that immediately after each contact with a group of positive-thinking, outdoorsy, Americans, her whole demeanour briefly changes from disgruntled to happy.

    Keep it up America!!

    [UK isn't even allowed to see Trump in the flesh so toxic has the Left branded him - The Mayor of London is now dictating to the Queen who she can and can't invite to dinner.]

    Who would have thought that any Mayor could be worse than Red Ken?

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  105. @Jack D
    If your grandfather was speaking German in Latvia he was speaking it to himself because everyone else spoke either Yiddish or Latvian. Yiddish was considered among some snotty people to be a sort of pidgin German and low class (when in fact it is a language unto itself), so Jews who were socially ambitious tried to switch to German (if you were even more ambitious you would convert to Catholicism). This worked OK in Vienna or Prague but there was not enough of a German speaking community in Latvia to make this stick. You really have to be suspicious of family lore because people tell stories that are self-aggrandizing. Instead of hearing it from your grandfather or your mother, you should have heard these stories from his neighbors - "Oh Moshe, he puts on such high class airs. He calls himself Moritz and pretends that he is speaking German."

    Reminds me of old joke from The Joys of Yiddish: young prat named La Fontaine is boasting endlessly about everything important he has ever done, everywhere important he’s ever been, and everyone important he’s ever met. Old guy overhearing gets fed up: “Listen, ‘La Fontaine,’ get off your high horse. I knew your grandfather, and he changed his name from ‘Schpritzwasser.’ And my grandfather knew HIS grandfather, and HIS name was “Moishie the Pischer.” So don’t give me any airs, ‘La Fontaine.’”

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  106. BB753 says:
    @Romanian
    Things will improve greatly when it is reunited with the Romanian motherland, whose GDP/capita is six times higher and, for all its ills, is still much better run than Moldova. /irredentism

    And, yeah, they are lookers. Too bad they are also exploited mercilessly for it, as is the whole of Eastern Europe. I think the beauty thing, aside from the regional gene pool and the selection in environments with high male mortality, is also due to the greater femininity of the women in terms of culture, not having been spoiled in great numbers by ideologies adverse to beauty. So even a homelier woman would take care of herself, dress as well as she can afford, wear make-up etc and thereby increase her natural appeal.

    What’s the deal with the breakaway part of Moldavia which claims to be independent, called Transnitria? Mostly Russian and Ukrainian populated, I guess.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transnistria

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    • Replies: @Romanian
    Well, you have to understand that the ethnic territorial delineations in Europe are not very good, even after all of the immigration, the forced assimilation, the ethnic cleansings. Romanians extend from the West Balkans to the Bug river (where Kiev is) and from the immediate North all the way to Greece. Greater Romania encompassed the areas where Romanians were a majority and which corresponded to the old "principalities" and kingdoms (the first iteration of the Romanian state was referred to as the Danubian Principalities, and consisted of Wallachia and Moldova without the Republic of Moldova, which is known as Bessarabia). It also included enclaves of minority Romanian areas, like the Szekely Land area which features in the news for autonomy, but was not on the border with Hungary to have stayed there.

    Transnistria literally means beyond the Dniester. It is a Latin formula just like Jordan used to be termed Transjordan and the West Bank was Cisjordan. It was never part of a historical Romanian kingdom, but did feature the largest Romanian population outside the Eastern borders of Moldova. When Greater Romania formed in 1918 and its borders were confirmed by the Treaty of Trianon, the USSR, which had lost Bessarabia in the chaos of the post-Revolutionary period, set up a Moldovan Soviet Republic consisting of Transnistria, which had enough Romanians/Moldovans to be presented as legitimately Moldovan, despite not belonging to the historical Kingdom.

    Then, in 1940, the USSR gave Romania an ultimatum to surrender Bessarabia or be invaded. The King assented to do so without a fight, which still divides Romanians today and set in motion the rise to power of the Legionary State and then of Marechal Antonescu, as well as our Axis membership, specifically to first gain back Bessarabia (though we went further and took Odessa as well, Antonescu apologists arguing that he intended to use the Transnistria Governorate, as it was called and maintained separate administratively from the indivisible Romania which had recovered Bessarabia, to negotiate with the Nazis for the return of Northern Transylvania, which had been taken by Hungary). In the end, we lost Bessarabia, but regained Northern Transylvania, by grace of Stalin, after the Antonescu regime was deposed and we conveniently turned to the side of the Allies.

    Romania became a reluctant member of the Warsaw Pact and eventually started pursuing independent policies. Bessarabia was divided between the Moldovan SSR, which included Transnistria (the rump Tranistria that started it all and is still there today), while the Northern and Southern parts of Bessarabia went to Ukraine and are still there. The argument was strategic - the Dniester is a very good lines of defense for Romania in an eventual war against it, which was a distinct possibility. Both Budjak (S. Bessarabia) and N. Bukowina and Hertza in the North allowed for the bypass of most natural obstacles for an invading force, while these areas were the least ethnically Moldo-Romanian so the least likely to maybe rise up like Bessarabia as a whole did in during unification. This year is the 100th anniversary of the unification of Greater Romania.

    In the end, there is a bit of a grey spot - when the component republics of the Soviet Union were declaring independence left and right within their existing administrative borders (including the various poison pills, like the Ossetians half in Georgia half in Russia, or Crimea in Ukraine) , Transnistria declared its independence from the USSR before Moldova actually did. When Moldova declared its independence, the conflict started with what it considered a breakaway region from its natural territory, which had the Soviet administrative borders. It is a terrible mess because Moldova was quite dependent on energy generation capabilities which were situated by Soviet planners beyond the Dniester, as well as heavy industry, specifically designed, just like the borders, to discourage secessionist politics. In time, the dependence lessens, but the issue of traffic passing through to Ukraine and then Russia remains, as does the issue of the huge debts that the little region has accumulated (for Gazprom gas deliveries) which it weirdly maintains are the sovereign responsibilities of Moldova. As a Romanian, I am biased, but the Transnistrians, who are still plurality Romanian, but less so than other regions of Moldova, with the exception of the Gagauz Autonomous Areas (don't ask), have had decades of extra Russification, USSR nostalgia and various other forms of cultural evolution which have further separated them from Moldova. Moldova, meanwhile, has developed a growing unionist block, sometimes at odds with its pro-European block, since unionists want to be in the EU and NATO by merging with Romania, though both are anti-Russian. Moldova has switched to Latin alphabet (which Kazakhstan will soon do) and declared in its constitution that it speaks the Romanian language, not the Moldovan, which was an attempt to create a separate identity which parts of the political class want to continue, even though the greater part of the medieval Kingdom and its population is in Romania and we count its heroes and poets as our national heroes and poets.

    I doubt that Russia has any sort of irredentist designs on the region and it would be a fiscal black hole for it worse than Crimea (the Moldovan GDP/capita is six times less than Romania and 7 times than Russia) and so is far less attractive than the Baltics, though even that possibility is remote (the Russians are seemingly unwilling to attach the Ukrainian Lugansk and Donetsk breakaway regions, despite the fact that they would welcome it). But it is useful. A frozen conflict with a territory full of Russian peacekeepers (who are basically blockaded there by both Ukraine and Moldova) prevents Moldova from moving towards Europe and Romania. For our part, we couldn't care less about Transnistria, it is an even worse mafia state than Moldova and is a lot poorer than it and we can always give citizenship to Romanians there, if they want it. It is also indefensible geographically But the solution to the conflict and the prospect of Russian retreat from the area (though it had been promised and signed in past treaties) passes through a political solution for the area.

    Russia insists, like in Ukraine, that the solution involves federalization in order to safeguard the interests of the Transnistrians. This automatically means a veto of any European or Atlanticist aspirations on the part of Moldova, just like it would for Ukraine, which would mean the maintenance of Russian influence in its near abroad. It is a concern on the part of Russians which I understand and I too wish to be as far away from Russia, though they recently became our neighbor again on the Exclusive Economic Zone in the Black Sea, because of Crimea. The Russians would probably approve in a heartbeat the reunification of Romania with Moldova if it were done under a federal arrangement, since this would give their Moldovan agents (both the dwindling Russian population and the Russophone and Russophile Romanians) significant leverage. Even the irredentists in Hungary would welcome the expansion of Romania under these terms, since Szekely Land would likely negotiate to become a federal entity, rather than the three counties it is today. So there is an element of risk here, since this would severely weaken Romania in more ways than one (the other being the spread of Moldovan and Russian crime syndicates in Romania, which has been opposed in recent decades by the secret service and the more domesticated Romanian crime syndicates; one of the Romanian millionaires at the nexus of the intelligence services and organized crime was caught on tape bragging about burying mobsters from Moldova in the forest in the 1990s). But Transnistria is utterly irrelevant outside of the Great Game being played in Eastern Europe, where it is a sideshow to Ukraine and its fate will ultimately depend on that of Ukraine, just as the Moldovan elites used to take their cues from Kiev.
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  107. wrd9 says:
    @Anonymous
    The only thing I know about Moldova is that it's where the "epic sax guy" meme originates... I hereby christen Bret Stephens, Epic Saxhole Guy

    p.s. "Proud to Live in a Nation of Holers" sounds like a slogan Selina Meyer from "Veep" would use in some humiliating context

    C’mon, guys, how could you forget this? Famous Moldovan music. My kids loved it. Meme magic, too.

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  108. BB753 says:
    @Hugh
    Moldova is not a shithole country.

    It is poor, but the people are civilised and recognisably European. The girls are also famous for their beauty which doesn’t hurt my anti-Stephens case.

    My definition of a shithole is a country with few roads, hospitals, no tap water or sewer system, little law and order, not much of an economy and even fewer educated citizens. Moldavia or Moldova does not meet those criteria. If the country was located in Africa, it would be a superpower.
    Unless you’ve visited a real shithole, you don’t know what a real shithole is. Yes, Virginia, Haiti is a shithole. And Moldova is not.

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  109. @syonredux

    Where did Ron Unz’s grandparents come from? Is he a holer? Sailer’s-were they all already here?
     
    My Dad's are from England and Scotland (18th century). My Mom's father was a German-speaking Ashkenazi from Latvia. Was '30s Latvia a hole? If it was, was it as much of a hole as '30s Haiti? As Contemporary Haiti?

    And even it was, why would that mean that I have to allow immigration from Haiti?

    Was ’30s Latvia a hole?

    Street washing truck cleaning Riga’s designated shitting street, circa 1930

    Riga had a more advanced water works in 1662 than Port-au-Prince does now:

    History
    …In 1662 Jacob Josten, a craftsman from Danzig, came to Rīga and within two years he had built a completely new water pumping station in a rampart tower at the end of Grecinieku Street by the Daugava River. Six horses were used to power the eight brass piston pumps that pumped the water from the Daugava River through a wooden pipe to a lead-lined, wooden storage tank at the top of the tower. The water flowed downwards from the 1080 cubic foot storage tank (about 30 m3) through wooden pipes that distributed the water to the various streets in the town. The water pressure in the supply network was 20 feet, i.e. six meters above street level. This pumping station operated without interruption for 200 years.

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  110. wrd9 says:
    @Dave Pinsen
    Twitter put together a "moment" of immigrants responding to Trump's alleged "shithole countries" comments. A few of them, like this one, thought their hypothetical future accomplishments were sufficient to refute Trump.

    https://twitter.com/Guyefurula/status/951656808107651074
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  111. Alden says:

    Boo hoo boo boo, my great grandpa only made $8 a week. The average yearly wage in 1910 was $200 to $400 a year. $416 a year was the high end of average

    The high end of average is pretty good. Most people wouldn’t complain about it into the 4 th generation

    And I bet evil Irish and Italian boys beat grandpa and daddy up every day after school because the local priest told them to beat up Christ killers

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  112. Alden says:
    @helena
    There's a new documentary on UK TV. Miriam Margoles (Professor something in HP) visiting middle-America to meet people who supported Trump. She stays with or visits people and sits round the table with them telling them she doesn't like their culture. What other culture would she do that to? But even though she says she finds the culture exclusive it is noticeable that immediately after each contact with a group of positive-thinking, outdoorsy, Americans, her whole demeanour briefly changes from disgruntled to happy.

    Keep it up America!!

    [UK isn't even allowed to see Trump in the flesh so toxic has the Left branded him - The Mayor of London is now dictating to the Queen who she can and can't invite to dinner.]

    The Mayors of London have always dictated to the sovereign.

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  113. wrd9 says:
    @anon

    But immigrants are more likely to be fleeing those dysfunctions and prejudices than they are to be bringing them
     
    They just keep telling us this. Do these assholes think we don't get the news from Europe around here? Because that was literally the exact thing they said when all the "refugees" started swarming in. Now even the Europeans admit that it's not true.

    It never ends with these people...

    Stephen’s statement is comprised of weasel words. “More likely”. There is absolutely no evidence of that and plenty to support the opposite. At least for those from corrupt countries. More than 80% of Dominicans are on welfare in the US and, in Lawrence, MA, they made it one of the auto insurance fraud capitals at one time. Dominicans in NYC fill up plastic barrels with EBT bought food to ship it to the DR to resell. There are many Dominican drug dealers who commit identity fraud and access welfare. Many other immigrant groups engage in fraud and other crimes like Cubans.

    Here’s Nigeria’s president commenting on his citizens.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/nigeria/12143510/Nigerians-reputation-for-crime-has-made-them-unwelcome-in-Britain-says-countrys-president.html

    The reality is that too many of these immigrants bring their corrupt culture with them and have no problems keeping it. There should be blacklists of countries.

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  114. SMK says: • Website
    @syonredux

    Yet that’s beside the point. We are not talking about Haiti, El Salvador, Nigeria or any other country on the president’s insult list. What counts are the people from these countries, both those who are already in the United States as well as those who wish to come. Why should the president think they are any less fit to become Americans than the Norwegians he seems to fancy?
     
    I mean, besides their IQ scores, the historically low economic performance of the Haitian-American community, their poor median GPA, etc, etc

    The obvious answer is racism, the same “textbook” case that Paul Ryan spoke of in June 2016 after Trump called a federal judge’s fitness into question on account of his ethnic heritage.
     
    Look, Haitians and Koreans are identical, OK?

    But immigrants are more likely to be fleeing those dysfunctions and prejudices than they are to be bringing them — just ask Dorsa Derakhshani, the international chess master from Iran who came to the United States last year because, as she wrote in an op-ed for The Times, the mullahs “cared more about the scarf covering my hair than the brain under it.”
     
    How many Haitian international chess masters are there? And what percentage of Haitian immigrants to the US do they comprise?And how many of them look like Dorsa Derakhshani?



    http://d279m997dpfwgl.cloudfront.net/wp/2017/09/0930_oag-dorsa-1000x667.jpg

    Vietnamese boat people did not bring fratricidal hatreds with them to America.
     
    Um, see, the USA has lots of Black people...and they tend to feel a tad antagonistic towards White people....and Haitians tend to share that hostility.....


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1804_Haiti_massacre

    Soviet refuseniks did not bring a Soviet work ethic.

     

    You're gonna have to work really hard to make people think that Haitians are like Ashkenazi Jews....

    This should go without saying, except that the age of Trump is also the age in which restatements of the obvious have become necessary for civilization.

     

    Like how all immigrants are exactly alike.....

    They don’t undermine American culture. They feed, enrich and reinvent it,
     
    Yeah, I mean just look at all the ways in which Haitians have enriched American culture....

    not least through their educational ambitions for themselves and their children.
     
    The link that he has here is really amazing. See, all six of the USA's 2016 Nobel Laureates were immigrants....of course, none of them were Black or Latinx immigrants...but that doesn't matter. Repeat after me: ALL IMMIGRANTS ARE THE SAME.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/12/opinion/proud-nation-of-holers.html

    North Korea is a hell-hole, the worst hell-hole on earth in regard to privacy and freedom, because it’s ruled by an evil and sadistic regine of communist fanatics and totalitarians led by a half-insane monster and buffoon. If the regime was overthrown, North Korea would join the south and soon became just as free and livable and prosperous. Haiti is a hell-hole because the average IQ of it’s people is 67. And so, too, with the nations and cultures of Sub-Saharan Africa. And so, too, Detroit, St. Louis, Baltimore. etc.Every nation and city ruled by blacks is a hell-hole and always will be so.

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  115. Jack D says:
    @syonredux

    In the province of Kurzeme and in the city of Riga, some sections of the Jewish population had, during the latter part of the 19th century, begun to acquire the German language instead of Yiddish; in the 1890’s, Russian was also acquired.
     

    Multilingualism in Latvia was not limited to the Jews. To understand conditions in the country correctly, one must bear in mind that Lettish was young, not only as an official language, but also as a language of civilization in general. German, the official language in the country until the 1880’s, and Russian, the language of the government and schools between that time and the First World War, consequently enjoyed much more prestige even among the Letts themselves than they would have as languages of rather inconsiderable minority groups within the country. Even the Lettish intellectuals, including the founders and leaders of the state, had received their education in one of these languages. During the period of independence many Letts still had to use Russian or German in business dealings.
     
    https://www.jewishgen.org/courland/consular/cons_jews.htm#lang

    In 1930, 45.82% of the pupils in Jewish schools studied in Yiddish, 36.05% in Hebrew, 13.077% in German and 5.05% in Russian.
     
    http://www.mfa.gov.lv/en/about-the-ministry/publications/latvia#1-23

    Jews became permanent inhabitants of Courland in the 18th century. Especially favorable was the ruling of Duke Ernst Johann Biron (1737-1747, then 1762-1769, the favourite of Russian Empress Anna Ivanovna), who even nominated a Jew Louis Lipmann to be his chief financial advisor. In the 18th century a lot of skilful Jewish workers and artisans (construction workers, roof-makers, inlay workers, tailors) arrived in Courland from Germany, as well as a number of medical doctors, the latter forming a core of Jewish intelligentsia, actively confirming and bearing the ideas of Jewish enlightenment – haskala. One of the founders of haskala movement in Courland was the medical doctor and philosopher Marcus Hertz (1743 - 1803). The German way of life (milieu) dominated in Courland, having a great impact on the Jews. It is important to stress that mostly German (and not Yiddish) language was the spoken language of the Jewish community and continued until World War II.

     

    https://www.jewishgen.org/latvia/historyOfLatvia.html

    So was your grandfather from Riga? When did he leave?

    I don’t know your family and it’s possible that your grandfather really was from the small German speaking Jewish minority but statistically far more Jews in Latvia spoke Yiddish (and had migrated into Latvia from the Pale in Russian times – the pre-Russian rule German speaking Jewish community was small (but wealthy). German speaking Jews were like modern non-Orthodox American Jews – upscale but not very fertile, while the Yiddish speakers were like today’s ultra-Orthodox – poor but lots and lots of kids, so over time they became numerically dominant. Even the ones listed as being educated in Hebrew would not have spoken it at home – they would have spoken Yiddish. Maybe 4 out of 5 would have spoken Yiddish as their language at home and the rest probably spoke it too so they could interact with the rest of the community.

    Growing up, one of our neighboring Jewish chicken farmers was a couple from Warsaw who seemed odd to me because they (unlike most of the others including my parents) spoke Polish to each other because they had come from an educated, assimilated background. My parents spoke Polish but not to each other (except when they didn’t want me to understand what they were saying). OTOH, when these neighbors spoke to my parents, they spoke Yiddish to them – they could speak it just fine (it’s probably what they spoke to their grandparents growing up), it just wasn’t their primary language.

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    • Replies: @syonredux

    So was your grandfather from Riga?
     
    Yep.

    When did he leave?
     
    1939, just ahead of Stalin.
    , @syonredux

    I don’t know your family and it’s possible that your grandfather really was from the small German speaking Jewish minority but statistically far more Jews in Latvia spoke Yiddish
     
    Yeah. My grandfather was highly cognizant of the fact that German-speaking Latvian Jews like him and his family represented a very small fraction of Latvian Jewry. But he liked it that way. He was very much the elitist, always mocking Yiddish (to his mind, kitchen-talk, fit only for uneducated women) and Russian (to his mind, the language of Asiatic barbarians). And he loved to extol the virtues of German culture: Goethe, Beethoven, Schiller , etc. If someone brought up the Holocaust, he would blame the whole thing on the madman Hitler. To him, the two greatest countries in the world were England and Germany.
    , @syonredux
    As a sidenote, I actually own my grandfather's copies of two of his favorite childhood books: Kästner's
    Das Fliegende Klassenzimmer ( The Flying Classroom ) and Emil und die Detektive (Emil and the Detectives).
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  116. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Radio host and fraudulent neocon joker Michael Medved became hysterical on his show Friday multiple times in the face of reality-based observations from Trump (sh*thole-gate fake news).

    For a certain kind of Ashkenazi any attempt to stop the transmogrification of America is heresy. It’s a Jewish holy cause, you see.

    Gentiles must stand up to these obnoxious bullies.

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  117. Jack D says:
    @Hugh
    Moldova is not a shithole country.

    It is poor, but the people are civilised and recognisably European. The girls are also famous for their beauty which doesn’t hurt my anti-Stephens case.

    It depends what you mean by shit hole. It is European but much poorer than most of modern Europe. For the Jews who left, it was a shit hole in the same way that Myanmar is a shit hole for the Rohingya right now – when the oppression dial turned up on them, it didn’t make a difference how prosperous or European the community was in general.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kishinev_pogrom

    I fully understand Jews like Stephens who identify with refugees because of their own family history. But the brilliant Ashkenazi refugees like the Stephens family were much more assiminable (maybe to the taste of some here TOO assimilable and successful) than Hondurans and Somalis, etc. Guys like Stephens make the mistake of thinking that little Mohammed from Mogadishu is just like Grandpa Moshe from Kishinev and don’t get it that Mohammed’s grandson will be named Mohammed and not Bret and is never going to be a NY Times columnist/gastroenterologist/ college professor like Moshe’s grandkids.

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    • Replies: @Dmitry

    It depends what you mean by shit hole. It is European but much poorer than most of modern Europe. For the Jews who left, it was a shit hole in the same way that Myanmar is a shit hole for the Rohingya right now – when the oppression dial turned up on them, it didn’t make a difference how prosperous or European the community was in general.
     
    Although he wouldn't have said that if his grandparents were (as the example in this discussion) - from Riga. After visiting it, he would have been talking about it like the Americans posting in this topic. American tourists visiting there will be coming back with compliments about it, or wanting to buy an apartment.

    Whereas it's understandable that he wasn't particularly impressed by Kishinev, and not exactly boasting about it - even if 'shithole' is a bit OTT. Yet within 200 kilometer radius you already have Chernovtsy and Odessa - more beautiful architecture than any cities in the United States. Within 300 kilometer, Lvov - 'little Paris'.

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  118. J1234 says:

    So another NYT story about how progressives are so connected with the past. Old grainy photos, and everything. Those progressives are just downright traditionalists.

    But only with regards to immigration. Because existing culture is essentially seen as a barrier to the designs of the left, and massive unfettered immigration is the only way to disconnect an existing population with from the prevailing culture…just like progressives forever claim Europeans did to the Native Americans. The left is for massive and excessive immigration because massive and excessive amounts of almost anything that would be good in moderate amounts is almost always destructive. Their purpose is to destroy America’s immigrant past…not to stay connected with it, but they have to make it appear otherwise.

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  119. a reader says:
    @Achmed E. Newman
    Let me get this straight. Mr. Stephens is proud to live in this country when it's full of people from shitholes. I thought multiculturalism meant that these holers should be proud of the shitholes they came from and want to spread each of the many ideas of what a true shithole is throughout America. Our country will then become swiss cheese of shitholes, but what new lands will we all run to then?

    Don't tell us what we should be proud of, Bret Stephens. From reading iSteve, I've been just getting sick of your hole shitholier-than-thou attitude lately!

    BTW, even if Bret's Dad had been 30 or so, $8/day was pretty good money back then.

    BTW, even if Bret’s Dad had been 30 or so, $8/day was pretty good money back then.

    Sure, but he says eight dollars a week.

    Anyway, I would not trust a single word of what Mr. Stephens tells about his ancestors.

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  120. @Reg Cæsar
    Stupid-sounding name, too, in English. What was wrong with Moldavia?

    What's their tourist slogan? "I was bowled over by Moldover"?

    I know. What was wrong with Bessarabia? That is actually a much cooler name in English, and doesn’t remind you of “mold”. That country needs some marketing help. Almost as stupid as Ukrainians insisting on the incredible ugly and nonsensical in English “Kyiv”.

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    • Replies: @Romanian
    Bessarabia is a later name that refers to the rump part of the medieval Moldavian kingdom which came under Czarist rule and later become the Republic of Moldova and the Chervnitsi (Cernăuți) oblast and half of the Odessa oblast of Ukraine (marked by the White Citadel on the Dniester River). Bessarabia is named so for the Basarabs, a royal dynasty of Moldova, and it was how the Russians referred to it after 1812, just like the Bukowina subregion, which is split between Romania and Ukraine (Cernăuți), was named so by Habsburg rulers. Moldova was supposedly name for its initial capital, which was named after the Moldova River, which was, in legend, named for the drowned dog (Molda) of the voivode who settled the lands from the West. Historians have argued various linguistic origins.

    So Bessarabia is only part of the historical whole (the Kingdom) to which both irredentist (unionist) Romanians and the Moldovenists who insist on a separate statehood and nationhood subscribe.

    Edit It seems to have posted twice!

    , @Romanian
    Bessarabia is a later name that refers to the rump part of the medieval Moldavian kingdom which came under Czarist rule and later become the Republic of Moldova and the Chervnitsi (Cernăuți) oblast and half of the Odessa oblast of Ukraine. Bessarabia is named so for the Basarabs, a royal dynasty of Moldova, and it was how the Russians referred to it after 1812, just like the Bukowina subregion, which is split between Romania and Ukraine (Cernăuți), was named so by Habsburg rulers. Moldova was supposedly name for its initial capital, which was named after the Moldova River, which was, in legend, named for the drowned dog (Molda) of the voivode who settled the lands from the West. Historians have argued various linguistic origins.

    So Bessarabia is only part of the historical whole (the Kingdom) to which both irredentist (unionist) Romanians and the Moldovenists who insist on a separate statehood and nationhood subscribe.
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  121. syonredux says:
    @Jack D
    So was your grandfather from Riga? When did he leave?

    I don't know your family and it's possible that your grandfather really was from the small German speaking Jewish minority but statistically far more Jews in Latvia spoke Yiddish (and had migrated into Latvia from the Pale in Russian times - the pre-Russian rule German speaking Jewish community was small (but wealthy). German speaking Jews were like modern non-Orthodox American Jews - upscale but not very fertile, while the Yiddish speakers were like today's ultra-Orthodox - poor but lots and lots of kids, so over time they became numerically dominant. Even the ones listed as being educated in Hebrew would not have spoken it at home - they would have spoken Yiddish. Maybe 4 out of 5 would have spoken Yiddish as their language at home and the rest probably spoke it too so they could interact with the rest of the community.

    Growing up, one of our neighboring Jewish chicken farmers was a couple from Warsaw who seemed odd to me because they (unlike most of the others including my parents) spoke Polish to each other because they had come from an educated, assimilated background. My parents spoke Polish but not to each other (except when they didn't want me to understand what they were saying). OTOH, when these neighbors spoke to my parents, they spoke Yiddish to them - they could speak it just fine (it's probably what they spoke to their grandparents growing up), it just wasn't their primary language.

    So was your grandfather from Riga?

    Yep.

    When did he leave?

    1939, just ahead of Stalin.

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  122. r3518439 says:

    What’s the opposite of nativist? It doesn’t seem a word exists for those among us who have a preference for foreigners. I get the idea that Bret Stephens and others of similar mind are deeply disappointed when they go out to a restaurant and get stuck with a waiter who does not have an accent, who does not have a SOB story, who is from America, and whose parents are from America.

    Read More
    • Replies: @BB753
    There's a word for it: xenophilia.
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  123. syonredux says:
    @Jack D
    So was your grandfather from Riga? When did he leave?

    I don't know your family and it's possible that your grandfather really was from the small German speaking Jewish minority but statistically far more Jews in Latvia spoke Yiddish (and had migrated into Latvia from the Pale in Russian times - the pre-Russian rule German speaking Jewish community was small (but wealthy). German speaking Jews were like modern non-Orthodox American Jews - upscale but not very fertile, while the Yiddish speakers were like today's ultra-Orthodox - poor but lots and lots of kids, so over time they became numerically dominant. Even the ones listed as being educated in Hebrew would not have spoken it at home - they would have spoken Yiddish. Maybe 4 out of 5 would have spoken Yiddish as their language at home and the rest probably spoke it too so they could interact with the rest of the community.

    Growing up, one of our neighboring Jewish chicken farmers was a couple from Warsaw who seemed odd to me because they (unlike most of the others including my parents) spoke Polish to each other because they had come from an educated, assimilated background. My parents spoke Polish but not to each other (except when they didn't want me to understand what they were saying). OTOH, when these neighbors spoke to my parents, they spoke Yiddish to them - they could speak it just fine (it's probably what they spoke to their grandparents growing up), it just wasn't their primary language.

    I don’t know your family and it’s possible that your grandfather really was from the small German speaking Jewish minority but statistically far more Jews in Latvia spoke Yiddish

    Yeah. My grandfather was highly cognizant of the fact that German-speaking Latvian Jews like him and his family represented a very small fraction of Latvian Jewry. But he liked it that way. He was very much the elitist, always mocking Yiddish (to his mind, kitchen-talk, fit only for uneducated women) and Russian (to his mind, the language of Asiatic barbarians). And he loved to extol the virtues of German culture: Goethe, Beethoven, Schiller , etc. If someone brought up the Holocaust, he would blame the whole thing on the madman Hitler. To him, the two greatest countries in the world were England and Germany.

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  124. syonredux says:
    @Jack D
    So was your grandfather from Riga? When did he leave?

    I don't know your family and it's possible that your grandfather really was from the small German speaking Jewish minority but statistically far more Jews in Latvia spoke Yiddish (and had migrated into Latvia from the Pale in Russian times - the pre-Russian rule German speaking Jewish community was small (but wealthy). German speaking Jews were like modern non-Orthodox American Jews - upscale but not very fertile, while the Yiddish speakers were like today's ultra-Orthodox - poor but lots and lots of kids, so over time they became numerically dominant. Even the ones listed as being educated in Hebrew would not have spoken it at home - they would have spoken Yiddish. Maybe 4 out of 5 would have spoken Yiddish as their language at home and the rest probably spoke it too so they could interact with the rest of the community.

    Growing up, one of our neighboring Jewish chicken farmers was a couple from Warsaw who seemed odd to me because they (unlike most of the others including my parents) spoke Polish to each other because they had come from an educated, assimilated background. My parents spoke Polish but not to each other (except when they didn't want me to understand what they were saying). OTOH, when these neighbors spoke to my parents, they spoke Yiddish to them - they could speak it just fine (it's probably what they spoke to their grandparents growing up), it just wasn't their primary language.

    As a sidenote, I actually own my grandfather’s copies of two of his favorite childhood books: Kästner’s
    Das Fliegende Klassenzimmer ( The Flying Classroom ) and Emil und die Detektive (Emil and the Detectives).

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jack D
    Kästner was a pacifist and not well liked by the Nazis (nor did he like that W. Germany joined NATO after the war) - they accused him of "Cultural Marxism". Sound familiar? Emil Kästner was not Jewish but there were unproven rumors that his real father was the Jewish family doctor, also named Emil. Kästner traveled in Jewish circles - his publisher was Jewish, he wrote for Jewish owned newspapers, etc. Jews were as thoroughly involved in pre- Hitler German liberal media outlets as they are today in the US.
    , @Hibernian
    I read Emil and the Detectives as a child. In English.
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  125. Jack D says:
    @Achmed E. Newman
    Let me get this straight. Mr. Stephens is proud to live in this country when it's full of people from shitholes. I thought multiculturalism meant that these holers should be proud of the shitholes they came from and want to spread each of the many ideas of what a true shithole is throughout America. Our country will then become swiss cheese of shitholes, but what new lands will we all run to then?

    Don't tell us what we should be proud of, Bret Stephens. From reading iSteve, I've been just getting sick of your hole shitholier-than-thou attitude lately!

    BTW, even if Bret's Dad had been 30 or so, $8/day was pretty good money back then.

    He said $8 per WEEK, not day.

    In 1900, the US average wage was $450 per year, so $8/week was ballpark. An unskilled Negro laborer would have made as little as $3/week – $8 was a wage for a skilled tradesman.

    $8 is equivalent to $160/week in today’s $. Of course there was no state or federal income tax so the takehome would have been the full amount. If you are making minimum wage today, by the time they take out various deductions and you pay even more taxes when you buy something, your net buying power is probably not much more than $160. The US in 1900 was a poorer country than today but $8/week would have been enough to buy the basics. Beef was 6 cents/lb. , a gallon of milk cost a dime, a loaf of bread was a nickel. Some things were relatively more expensive than today. They hadn’t made the big breakthru in mass poultry raising so a dozen eggs was a quarter ($5.00 in our money) and chicken was $.13/lb. (twice as much as beef).

    Read More
    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    Thank you, Jack, and "a reader" too, for finding my error, and for the correction. OTOH, you both missed my other mistake in reading. It was not Stephen's Dad, but his Granddad, so his Dad could have made 8$ a day after all!

    See, 2 wrongs do make a right sometimes. ;-}

    Anyway, I always appreciate your factual posts, Jack D. I don't think I've disagreed with your opinions very often either.
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  126. Looks like lots of thugs there but no Ggigory Kotovsky. True real life Robin Hood.

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  127. @Whiskey
    Typical feminine feelz garbage. A man would object on grounds of things of interest to men. Such as "we need cheap cannon fodder for imperial wars, our valuable soldiers cannot be wasted in human minefield detector attacks!" Things like that.

    Rather, the response to this should be: A. The Third World is with very few exception, a giant s-hole. B. They've had nearly 70 years to run things themselves and have made a mess of things. C. We should run things for them as IMPERIAL POWERS DENYING THEM ANY VOTING RIGHTS or any political voice but providing clean water, safe food, decent schools, and a giant China style police state out of XianXing.

    Since the Third World cannot run itself and its one small fragile planet, time for Whites and Chinese/Koreans/Japanese/Thais/Vietnamese and maybe Malaysians to step in and run things. America, Europe and China can step in run things. Third World peoples are FAILURES and should be treated as global failures.

    We ought to provide a good offense as a good defense. That flipping universal globalism around, means Third World people not only don't have rights to move here, they don't have rights to rule themselves as they are total failures. They can't even organize indoor plumbing and sewage treatment plants. Ex-Communist hell-holes like Romania have at least THAT. So why not?
    Read More
    • Replies: @J.Ross
    "Winter Is Coming"
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  128. Jack D says:
    @syonredux
    As a sidenote, I actually own my grandfather's copies of two of his favorite childhood books: Kästner's
    Das Fliegende Klassenzimmer ( The Flying Classroom ) and Emil und die Detektive (Emil and the Detectives).

    Kästner was a pacifist and not well liked by the Nazis (nor did he like that W. Germany joined NATO after the war) – they accused him of “Cultural Marxism”. Sound familiar? Emil Kästner was not Jewish but there were unproven rumors that his real father was the Jewish family doctor, also named Emil. Kästner traveled in Jewish circles – his publisher was Jewish, he wrote for Jewish owned newspapers, etc. Jews were as thoroughly involved in pre- Hitler German liberal media outlets as they are today in the US.

    Read More
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  129. 3g4me says:
    @Anonymous
    NYT Pick comment:

    AA NY
    My grandparents and great grandparents came from Naples, Italy around 1900 when that "hole" was said to produce dirty, sneaky, criminally inclined immigrants. They were, to use the racist parlance of the day, "greaseballs."

    What is sad to me is that many of the people I know who still, amazingly, support Trump, have family backgrounds like mine. And these third generation "greaseballs", "micks" and "polaks" forget where they came from and what was said about their ancestors.

    Trump and his supporters truly do not get it. If 100 years from now the entire nation is a beautiful combination of brown and black and yellow, but still guided by the entire constitution and all of its ideals then the United States will continue to be the beacon of the world. If, on the other hand, 100 years from now the nation is ruled by a white elite that has closed its borders and trampled on the ideals of the 1st and 14th and many other amendments, then we will be a second rate nation with nothing to offer a hot divided world. What a s***hole place that will be.

    I'm still betting on the former.
    257 Recommend
     

    @5 Anonymous: NYT Pick Comment “My grandparents and great grandparents came from Naples, Italy around 1900 when that “hole” was said to produce dirty, sneaky, criminally inclined immigrants. They were, to use the racist parlance of the day, “greaseballs.”

    My husband’s four maternal great-grandparents immigrated from Campania in the mid 1880s. While they settled in New Jersey, numerous relatives and friends from one particular commune landed elsewhere around the country (the son of one such immigrant family essentially ran away from home the day he turned 18 and went to the Klondike with the gold rush; he died in Alaska in the mid 1960s). After extensively tracing literally thousands of such immigrants and reading hundreds of newspaper articles from about 1895 onwards, my overall impression is that the Italians were the Mexicans of their day.

    They procreated extensively, were often heedless of their offsprings’ antics (running away and hiding in strangers’ barns, riding the trains, shoplifting, starting deadly fires in their tenements), were renowned for uncontrolled grudges and passions (lots of reports of knife fights and feuding in the Italian quarter) and assimilated only gradually over the years as forced by law, custom, and/or via intermarriage. The vast majority were not even small craftsmen (my husband’s one shoemaker great-grandfather was an exception) but manual laborers – hod carriers, tunnel diggers, road construction, etc. Many of them traveled back and forth between the U.S. and Italy repeatedly (visit a cousin in NY to work for a few years and go home, then stay with a brother-in-law in Chicago for a few years and go home, etc.).

    They did not come for “freedom” and “democracy.” They came for purely economic reasons (the wife of one distant relative was interviewed by the Ellis Island Project; she stated quite frankly that her father much preferred working set hours in the factory to struggling on a small, remote, hilltop farm and her mother never wanted to leave Italy). I’ve documented a number of immigrants who became labor agitators, others who became explicitly ethnic city politicians, etc. While the vast majority didn’t seem to do explicit harm to America, neither did they bestow awesome benefits on their new country. By the 1940s they were the urban equivalent of dated farm equipment.

    While they were never considered non-White, neither were they considered “Americans.” Some of their children and most of their grandchildren were, as they intermarried , moved away from their ethnic enclaves, became educated professionals, etc. They (and all the other post 1880 immigrants) certainly changed America at least as much as it changed them. “Assimilation,” or what I’d more accurately term semi-nationality by adoption, is a two way street, and many of the earlier Americans were legitimately dubious at the invasion and eventual dominance of their neighborhoods and towns by thousands of foreigners from all corners of the globe. The only saving grace is that the vast majority were White, European Christians, with just enough of a religious and racial and cultural component in common to very, very gradually turn peasants into hyphenated Americans.

    As demonstrated by that odious NYT comment, many of them remain hyphenated Americans to this day, idolizing their not-particularly exceptional ancestors as all exclusively hard working, honest, and sober people (they weren’t). They retain aggrieved that they were rightfully resented for taking over and remaking parts of America more in their own image. They expect eternal gratitude for their unexceptional and miniscule part of the American experience (muh grandfather/uncles/cousins fought the evil notsees in WWII!).

    America, on the whole, didn’t truly “need” them and would have done fine without them. Most of them should have been denied entry. The rest need to shut up (unless to express gratitude for being allowed in) and work on learning real history as opposed to the sainted immigrant narrative, and ponder what it really means to be an “American” – with NO HYPHEN – and then devote their lives to becoming the best damn facsimile they can manage. Otherwise, they need to go back.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Italy was extremely poor and overpopulated, but it was also ITALY, one of the world's great civilizations. Thus it was awfully hard for Italian immigrants to forget.
    , @Hibernian
    I believe Irish immigrants came for religious and political freedom as well as economic reasons.
    , @JackOH
    Brilliant comment, 3g, hat's off to you. Don't have time for a robust reply, but we could certainly stand revisiting those standard-issue immigrant narratives we've all been fed. BTW-I grew up in an industrial city that was very multi-ethnic, multi-racial, and it's common knowledge among observant folks that some large fraction of European descendants remain as suspicious, insular, narrow, conniving, and grasping as their immigrant forebears. Their "Americanism", a sense of fellow-feeling and common cause with their neighbors, is real enough--but it's thin.
    , @Anon
    Yup, Italians turned Lyndhurst, NJ from suburban paradise on earth to the hellhole it is today.
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  130. 3g4me says:
    @Jack D
    If your grandfather was speaking German in Latvia he was speaking it to himself because everyone else spoke either Yiddish or Latvian. Yiddish was considered among some snotty people to be a sort of pidgin German and low class (when in fact it is a language unto itself), so Jews who were socially ambitious tried to switch to German (if you were even more ambitious you would convert to Catholicism). This worked OK in Vienna or Prague but there was not enough of a German speaking community in Latvia to make this stick. You really have to be suspicious of family lore because people tell stories that are self-aggrandizing. Instead of hearing it from your grandfather or your mother, you should have heard these stories from his neighbors - "Oh Moshe, he puts on such high class airs. He calls himself Moritz and pretends that he is speaking German."

    @64 Jack D: ” Yiddish was considered among some snotty people to be a sort of pidgin German and low class (when in fact it is a language unto itself)”

    Yiddish is an amalgamation of pidgin German and Russian written in the Hebrew alphabet. Jews demand its recognition as a “language” just as Haitians pretend they speak French.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Dmitry

    Yiddish is an amalgamation of pidgin German and Russian written in the Hebrew alphabet. Jews demand its recognition as a “language” just as Haitians pretend they speak French.

     
    Yiddish has produced a great literature, particularly poetry - even well into the 1930s in the Soviet Union. My respect for a language is dependent on whether there are good books to read in it.
    , @Jack D
    Linguists will tell you that there is no bright line between a pidgin or dialect and a "language". Weinreich, the Noah Webster of Yiddish, said that a language is a dialect with an army and a navy.

    Not many Russian words in Yiddish, at least Yiddish as spoken in non-Russian speaking areas. Yiddish was (as spoken by the Orthodox still is) short on detailed vocabulary - there is a word for bird, saw and tree, etc. but you just use the local names for birch, robin, oak, hawk, radial arm saw, etc.

    Haitians don't pretend to speak French nowadays - they freely admit that they are speaking Kreyol (Creole).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creole_language

    Creole languages start out as mixes but eventually they become true languages - they have their own grammatical structure and babies learn them the same as they learn any other native language. If you go back far enough, French itself is a Creole of Latin.

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  131. @3g4me
    @5 Anonymous: NYT Pick Comment "My grandparents and great grandparents came from Naples, Italy around 1900 when that “hole” was said to produce dirty, sneaky, criminally inclined immigrants. They were, to use the racist parlance of the day, “greaseballs.”

    My husband's four maternal great-grandparents immigrated from Campania in the mid 1880s. While they settled in New Jersey, numerous relatives and friends from one particular commune landed elsewhere around the country (the son of one such immigrant family essentially ran away from home the day he turned 18 and went to the Klondike with the gold rush; he died in Alaska in the mid 1960s). After extensively tracing literally thousands of such immigrants and reading hundreds of newspaper articles from about 1895 onwards, my overall impression is that the Italians were the Mexicans of their day.

    They procreated extensively, were often heedless of their offsprings' antics (running away and hiding in strangers' barns, riding the trains, shoplifting, starting deadly fires in their tenements), were renowned for uncontrolled grudges and passions (lots of reports of knife fights and feuding in the Italian quarter) and assimilated only gradually over the years as forced by law, custom, and/or via intermarriage. The vast majority were not even small craftsmen (my husband's one shoemaker great-grandfather was an exception) but manual laborers - hod carriers, tunnel diggers, road construction, etc. Many of them traveled back and forth between the U.S. and Italy repeatedly (visit a cousin in NY to work for a few years and go home, then stay with a brother-in-law in Chicago for a few years and go home, etc.).

    They did not come for "freedom" and "democracy." They came for purely economic reasons (the wife of one distant relative was interviewed by the Ellis Island Project; she stated quite frankly that her father much preferred working set hours in the factory to struggling on a small, remote, hilltop farm and her mother never wanted to leave Italy). I've documented a number of immigrants who became labor agitators, others who became explicitly ethnic city politicians, etc. While the vast majority didn't seem to do explicit harm to America, neither did they bestow awesome benefits on their new country. By the 1940s they were the urban equivalent of dated farm equipment.

    While they were never considered non-White, neither were they considered "Americans." Some of their children and most of their grandchildren were, as they intermarried , moved away from their ethnic enclaves, became educated professionals, etc. They (and all the other post 1880 immigrants) certainly changed America at least as much as it changed them. "Assimilation," or what I'd more accurately term semi-nationality by adoption, is a two way street, and many of the earlier Americans were legitimately dubious at the invasion and eventual dominance of their neighborhoods and towns by thousands of foreigners from all corners of the globe. The only saving grace is that the vast majority were White, European Christians, with just enough of a religious and racial and cultural component in common to very, very gradually turn peasants into hyphenated Americans.

    As demonstrated by that odious NYT comment, many of them remain hyphenated Americans to this day, idolizing their not-particularly exceptional ancestors as all exclusively hard working, honest, and sober people (they weren't). They retain aggrieved that they were rightfully resented for taking over and remaking parts of America more in their own image. They expect eternal gratitude for their unexceptional and miniscule part of the American experience (muh grandfather/uncles/cousins fought the evil notsees in WWII!).

    America, on the whole, didn't truly "need" them and would have done fine without them. Most of them should have been denied entry. The rest need to shut up (unless to express gratitude for being allowed in) and work on learning real history as opposed to the sainted immigrant narrative, and ponder what it really means to be an "American" - with NO HYPHEN - and then devote their lives to becoming the best damn facsimile they can manage. Otherwise, they need to go back.

    Italy was extremely poor and overpopulated, but it was also ITALY, one of the world’s great civilizations. Thus it was awfully hard for Italian immigrants to forget.

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    • Replies: @Dmitry
    Although the high culture or civilization of the nation, would not all have been in this time (late 19th century) assimilated by the average immigrant coming to the United States. (I guess most of the immigrants of this era would not yet have been able to speak standardized Italian).
    , @syonredux

    Italy was extremely poor and overpopulated, but it was also ITALY, one of the world’s great civilizations. Thus it was awfully hard for Italian immigrants to forget.
     
    The Roman Empire and the Renaissance, that's one hell of a one-two.

    Maybe that's why Italians, on average, seem less prone to nursing grudges over slights that their immigrant ancestors endured. Having your country be that central to Western Civilization must inspire a good degree of confidence.
    , @3g4me
    @130 Steve Sailer: "Italy was extremely poor and overpopulated, but it was also ITALY, one of the world’s great civilizations. Thus it was awfully hard for Italian immigrants to forget."

    Italy is a beautiful country with an immensely rich cultural heritage. However, the vast majority of the immigrants I have documented were the the descendants of numerous generations from the same isolated villages. Most had never traveled more than a handful of miles from their homes. One side of my husband' Italian ancestors trace back to at least the 1600s in the very same village. The commune one set of great-grandparents were from was only about 50 miles as the crow flies from the native village of the other set of great-grandparents, but if they hadn't immigrated to America and settled in the same place, his grandparents never would have met and married.

    They weren't pining for the glories of Rome or Micheangelo; they were merely typical peasant immigrants with heavily intermarried families and centuries of ties to the same place.
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  132. Dmitry says:
    @Jack D
    It depends what you mean by shit hole. It is European but much poorer than most of modern Europe. For the Jews who left, it was a shit hole in the same way that Myanmar is a shit hole for the Rohingya right now - when the oppression dial turned up on them, it didn't make a difference how prosperous or European the community was in general.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kishinev_pogrom

    I fully understand Jews like Stephens who identify with refugees because of their own family history. But the brilliant Ashkenazi refugees like the Stephens family were much more assiminable (maybe to the taste of some here TOO assimilable and successful) than Hondurans and Somalis, etc. Guys like Stephens make the mistake of thinking that little Mohammed from Mogadishu is just like Grandpa Moshe from Kishinev and don't get it that Mohammed's grandson will be named Mohammed and not Bret and is never going to be a NY Times columnist/gastroenterologist/ college professor like Moshe's grandkids.

    It depends what you mean by shit hole. It is European but much poorer than most of modern Europe. For the Jews who left, it was a shit hole in the same way that Myanmar is a shit hole for the Rohingya right now – when the oppression dial turned up on them, it didn’t make a difference how prosperous or European the community was in general.

    Although he wouldn’t have said that if his grandparents were (as the example in this discussion) – from Riga. After visiting it, he would have been talking about it like the Americans posting in this topic. American tourists visiting there will be coming back with compliments about it, or wanting to buy an apartment.

    Whereas it’s understandable that he wasn’t particularly impressed by Kishinev, and not exactly boasting about it – even if ‘shithole’ is a bit OTT. Yet within 200 kilometer radius you already have Chernovtsy and Odessa – more beautiful architecture than any cities in the United States. Within 300 kilometer, Lvov – ‘little Paris’.

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    • Replies: @Dmitry
    *470 kilometer from Lvov.
    , @Hibernian
    I spent some time in L'viv serving Uncle Sam and it's a poor city with modern suburban areas; lots of history in the old areas. Then again, I've never been to Paris and can't compare the two.
    , @Jack D
    I visited Lviv (Lvov, Lemberg) because my mother's shtetl, which I wanted to see, is not far away. The center is an extremely well preserved Austro-Hungarian provincial city in the sense that Havana is well preserved. WWI and WWII managed to miss the place and the Russians never put much money into it so it stayed sort of preserved in amber. I stayed in a spectacular pre-WWI apartment that had maybe 20 foot ceilings and had been (somewhat) renovated (in an unsuitable modern style) but the hallways and courtyard had exposed pipes and wires, etc. If that place was in the center of Paris, it would be worth I don't know how many millions.

    OTOH, Paris doesn't have Soviet trolley cars that roller coaster over cobblestone streets that have settled with age and that are filled with old Ladas, but Lviv does. But Lviv looks like Beverly Hills compared to the countryside where the toothless peasants ride horse drawn hay wagons. It is sort of mind boggling that 500 miles from Berlin you have people doing subsistence farming at income levels we usually associate with Africa.
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  133. Hibernian says:
    @syonredux
    As a sidenote, I actually own my grandfather's copies of two of his favorite childhood books: Kästner's
    Das Fliegende Klassenzimmer ( The Flying Classroom ) and Emil und die Detektive (Emil and the Detectives).

    I read Emil and the Detectives as a child. In English.

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    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    I read Emil and the Detectives as a child. In English
     
    So did I. It was the weirdest thing I read as a child.

    Disney made a movie of it. Another German-derived hit of theirs was The Parent Trap, which is about as square and straightforward as you can get.

    Those two extremes seem to dominate German culture, or at least that segment of it which makes it over here.
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  134. Dmitry says:
    @Dmitry

    It depends what you mean by shit hole. It is European but much poorer than most of modern Europe. For the Jews who left, it was a shit hole in the same way that Myanmar is a shit hole for the Rohingya right now – when the oppression dial turned up on them, it didn’t make a difference how prosperous or European the community was in general.
     
    Although he wouldn't have said that if his grandparents were (as the example in this discussion) - from Riga. After visiting it, he would have been talking about it like the Americans posting in this topic. American tourists visiting there will be coming back with compliments about it, or wanting to buy an apartment.

    Whereas it's understandable that he wasn't particularly impressed by Kishinev, and not exactly boasting about it - even if 'shithole' is a bit OTT. Yet within 200 kilometer radius you already have Chernovtsy and Odessa - more beautiful architecture than any cities in the United States. Within 300 kilometer, Lvov - 'little Paris'.

    *470 kilometer from Lvov.

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  135. Hibernian says:
    @3g4me
    @5 Anonymous: NYT Pick Comment "My grandparents and great grandparents came from Naples, Italy around 1900 when that “hole” was said to produce dirty, sneaky, criminally inclined immigrants. They were, to use the racist parlance of the day, “greaseballs.”

    My husband's four maternal great-grandparents immigrated from Campania in the mid 1880s. While they settled in New Jersey, numerous relatives and friends from one particular commune landed elsewhere around the country (the son of one such immigrant family essentially ran away from home the day he turned 18 and went to the Klondike with the gold rush; he died in Alaska in the mid 1960s). After extensively tracing literally thousands of such immigrants and reading hundreds of newspaper articles from about 1895 onwards, my overall impression is that the Italians were the Mexicans of their day.

    They procreated extensively, were often heedless of their offsprings' antics (running away and hiding in strangers' barns, riding the trains, shoplifting, starting deadly fires in their tenements), were renowned for uncontrolled grudges and passions (lots of reports of knife fights and feuding in the Italian quarter) and assimilated only gradually over the years as forced by law, custom, and/or via intermarriage. The vast majority were not even small craftsmen (my husband's one shoemaker great-grandfather was an exception) but manual laborers - hod carriers, tunnel diggers, road construction, etc. Many of them traveled back and forth between the U.S. and Italy repeatedly (visit a cousin in NY to work for a few years and go home, then stay with a brother-in-law in Chicago for a few years and go home, etc.).

    They did not come for "freedom" and "democracy." They came for purely economic reasons (the wife of one distant relative was interviewed by the Ellis Island Project; she stated quite frankly that her father much preferred working set hours in the factory to struggling on a small, remote, hilltop farm and her mother never wanted to leave Italy). I've documented a number of immigrants who became labor agitators, others who became explicitly ethnic city politicians, etc. While the vast majority didn't seem to do explicit harm to America, neither did they bestow awesome benefits on their new country. By the 1940s they were the urban equivalent of dated farm equipment.

    While they were never considered non-White, neither were they considered "Americans." Some of their children and most of their grandchildren were, as they intermarried , moved away from their ethnic enclaves, became educated professionals, etc. They (and all the other post 1880 immigrants) certainly changed America at least as much as it changed them. "Assimilation," or what I'd more accurately term semi-nationality by adoption, is a two way street, and many of the earlier Americans were legitimately dubious at the invasion and eventual dominance of their neighborhoods and towns by thousands of foreigners from all corners of the globe. The only saving grace is that the vast majority were White, European Christians, with just enough of a religious and racial and cultural component in common to very, very gradually turn peasants into hyphenated Americans.

    As demonstrated by that odious NYT comment, many of them remain hyphenated Americans to this day, idolizing their not-particularly exceptional ancestors as all exclusively hard working, honest, and sober people (they weren't). They retain aggrieved that they were rightfully resented for taking over and remaking parts of America more in their own image. They expect eternal gratitude for their unexceptional and miniscule part of the American experience (muh grandfather/uncles/cousins fought the evil notsees in WWII!).

    America, on the whole, didn't truly "need" them and would have done fine without them. Most of them should have been denied entry. The rest need to shut up (unless to express gratitude for being allowed in) and work on learning real history as opposed to the sainted immigrant narrative, and ponder what it really means to be an "American" - with NO HYPHEN - and then devote their lives to becoming the best damn facsimile they can manage. Otherwise, they need to go back.

    I believe Irish immigrants came for religious and political freedom as well as economic reasons.

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    • Replies: @3g4me
    @134 Hibernian: "I believe Irish immigrants came for religious and political freedom as well as economic reasons."

    Sigh. It's really not all about you or your specific or ethnic ancestors. Undoubtedly there were some arrivals due to political repression, but the vast majority of all immigrants to America from 1880 on were economic. There's nothing particularly evil about that, but it would be nice for some honesty instead of "muh sacred immigrant ancestors."

    Another set of my husband's great-grandparents (on the paternal side) were Irish immigrants, so I take license to bash them equally. Look, I'm not condemning anyone as evil, but neither were they unique. As I said, the great wave of immigrants changed America dramatically - and in many negative ways (check out the Jewish riots in NY 1906/1907 against Christmas songs and observances in school). I'd argue part of the reason the FDR was able to get away with multiple terms in office and many of his blatantly socialist programs was because so many of the cities were filled with immigrant voters and their children, and as I also said, even partial "assimilation" takes a whole lotta time and pressure and intermarriage. I'm talking multiple generations here (minimum 4).

    Again, their sole saving grace was that they were White European Christians. There was something to work with there, and, after a few generations, an only moderate visual distinction among most (on the Italian side, in my husband's immediate ancestors alone, there were Italian-Irish, Italian-Czech, and Italian-German marriages). The post 1965 immigrants and their descendants are alien - racially, culturally, and religiously. They have even less of an understanding of English common law and social practices than the hyphenated European Americans did and do. Again, a tiny handful might be able to abide by and truly internalize "American" virtues and values, but most will not (even if they were willing and/or compelled). Consider that the American Negro has been here 400 years and only a miniscule number can live as independent, educated, responsible adults, let alone as good neighbors.

    We're no exception to the laws of God and nature or the pattern of human history.
    Diversity + proximity = war.

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  136. Hibernian says:
    @Dmitry

    It depends what you mean by shit hole. It is European but much poorer than most of modern Europe. For the Jews who left, it was a shit hole in the same way that Myanmar is a shit hole for the Rohingya right now – when the oppression dial turned up on them, it didn’t make a difference how prosperous or European the community was in general.
     
    Although he wouldn't have said that if his grandparents were (as the example in this discussion) - from Riga. After visiting it, he would have been talking about it like the Americans posting in this topic. American tourists visiting there will be coming back with compliments about it, or wanting to buy an apartment.

    Whereas it's understandable that he wasn't particularly impressed by Kishinev, and not exactly boasting about it - even if 'shithole' is a bit OTT. Yet within 200 kilometer radius you already have Chernovtsy and Odessa - more beautiful architecture than any cities in the United States. Within 300 kilometer, Lvov - 'little Paris'.

    I spent some time in L’viv serving Uncle Sam and it’s a poor city with modern suburban areas; lots of history in the old areas. Then again, I’ve never been to Paris and can’t compare the two.

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    • Replies: @Dmitry

    Then again, I’ve never been to Paris and can’t compare the two.
     
    A large body of Parisian (and Viennese style) architecture was brought to the city during the Hapsburg rule.
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  137. Dmitry says:
    @3g4me
    @64 Jack D: " Yiddish was considered among some snotty people to be a sort of pidgin German and low class (when in fact it is a language unto itself)"

    Yiddish is an amalgamation of pidgin German and Russian written in the Hebrew alphabet. Jews demand its recognition as a "language" just as Haitians pretend they speak French.

    Yiddish is an amalgamation of pidgin German and Russian written in the Hebrew alphabet. Jews demand its recognition as a “language” just as Haitians pretend they speak French.

    Yiddish has produced a great literature, particularly poetry – even well into the 1930s in the Soviet Union. My respect for a language is dependent on whether there are good books to read in it.

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  138. BB753 says:
    @r3518439
    What's the opposite of nativist? It doesn't seem a word exists for those among us who have a preference for foreigners. I get the idea that Bret Stephens and others of similar mind are deeply disappointed when they go out to a restaurant and get stuck with a waiter who does not have an accent, who does not have a SOB story, who is from America, and whose parents are from America.

    There’s a word for it: xenophilia.

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  139. dr kill says:
    @Mr. Anon
    Wasn't Stephens the guy who recently wrote that a lot of native Americans are - to use the now favored term - s**ty people, who ought to be deported.

    Why doesn't Stephens just come out and say what he really thinks about Americans: F**k you, goyim, and f**k the country your ancestors created.

    No, I think that was some other shithead at the NR.

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    No, I think that was some other shithead at the NR.
     
    I believe a couple of NR shitheads did indeed write that too. But so did Stephens:

    Only Mass Deportation Can Save America

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  140. Dmitry says:
    @Steve Sailer
    Italy was extremely poor and overpopulated, but it was also ITALY, one of the world's great civilizations. Thus it was awfully hard for Italian immigrants to forget.

    Although the high culture or civilization of the nation, would not all have been in this time (late 19th century) assimilated by the average immigrant coming to the United States. (I guess most of the immigrants of this era would not yet have been able to speak standardized Italian).

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    Especially since most came from Sicily and other parts of Southern Italy that historically had been Greek, Arab, Bourbon French, etc. - the Roman Empire was a distant memory that meant nothing to them.
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  141. Jack D says:
    @Dmitry

    It depends what you mean by shit hole. It is European but much poorer than most of modern Europe. For the Jews who left, it was a shit hole in the same way that Myanmar is a shit hole for the Rohingya right now – when the oppression dial turned up on them, it didn’t make a difference how prosperous or European the community was in general.
     
    Although he wouldn't have said that if his grandparents were (as the example in this discussion) - from Riga. After visiting it, he would have been talking about it like the Americans posting in this topic. American tourists visiting there will be coming back with compliments about it, or wanting to buy an apartment.

    Whereas it's understandable that he wasn't particularly impressed by Kishinev, and not exactly boasting about it - even if 'shithole' is a bit OTT. Yet within 200 kilometer radius you already have Chernovtsy and Odessa - more beautiful architecture than any cities in the United States. Within 300 kilometer, Lvov - 'little Paris'.

    I visited Lviv (Lvov, Lemberg) because my mother’s shtetl, which I wanted to see, is not far away. The center is an extremely well preserved Austro-Hungarian provincial city in the sense that Havana is well preserved. WWI and WWII managed to miss the place and the Russians never put much money into it so it stayed sort of preserved in amber. I stayed in a spectacular pre-WWI apartment that had maybe 20 foot ceilings and had been (somewhat) renovated (in an unsuitable modern style) but the hallways and courtyard had exposed pipes and wires, etc. If that place was in the center of Paris, it would be worth I don’t know how many millions.

    OTOH, Paris doesn’t have Soviet trolley cars that roller coaster over cobblestone streets that have settled with age and that are filled with old Ladas, but Lviv does. But Lviv looks like Beverly Hills compared to the countryside where the toothless peasants ride horse drawn hay wagons. It is sort of mind boggling that 500 miles from Berlin you have people doing subsistence farming at income levels we usually associate with Africa.

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    • Replies: @Dmitry

    I stayed in a spectacular pre-WWI apartment that had maybe 20 foot ceilings and had been (somewhat) renovated (in an unsuitable modern style) but the hallways and courtyard had exposed pipes and wires, etc. If that place was in the center of Paris, it would be worth I don’t know how many millions.

    OTOH, Paris doesn’t have Soviet trolley cars that roller coaster over cobblestone streets that have settled with age and that are filled with old Ladas, but Lviv does. But Lviv looks like Beverly Hills compared to the countryside where the toothless peasants ride horse drawn hay wagons. It is sort of mind boggling that 500 miles from Berlin you have people doing subsistence farming at income levels we usually associate with Africa.
     

    Yes this kind of mismatch between grand architecture and present economic reality can be interesting.

    It can also go in both directions. I think of Tel Aviv as a reverse of this, that has inherited in the majority of its buildings, third-world style, crumbling architecture (the ones from the 1930s having some aesthetic value/renovation potential; the ones from the 1950s-60s having none) - all of which in a surreal mismatch with the fast growing economy in the city, and which leads to million dollar prices demanded for favela like buildings on half-collapsing streets.

    , @inertial
    The part of Ukraine you are describing is Ukrainian equivalent of Appalachia. Yes, it's quite backward and is populated by yokels (or so is their reputation in the rest of Ukraine.) Developed parts of Ukraine are East and South, plus Kiev.
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  142. Dmitry says:
    @Hibernian
    I spent some time in L'viv serving Uncle Sam and it's a poor city with modern suburban areas; lots of history in the old areas. Then again, I've never been to Paris and can't compare the two.

    Then again, I’ve never been to Paris and can’t compare the two.

    A large body of Parisian (and Viennese style) architecture was brought to the city during the Hapsburg rule.

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  143. Dmitry says:
    @Jack D
    I visited Lviv (Lvov, Lemberg) because my mother's shtetl, which I wanted to see, is not far away. The center is an extremely well preserved Austro-Hungarian provincial city in the sense that Havana is well preserved. WWI and WWII managed to miss the place and the Russians never put much money into it so it stayed sort of preserved in amber. I stayed in a spectacular pre-WWI apartment that had maybe 20 foot ceilings and had been (somewhat) renovated (in an unsuitable modern style) but the hallways and courtyard had exposed pipes and wires, etc. If that place was in the center of Paris, it would be worth I don't know how many millions.

    OTOH, Paris doesn't have Soviet trolley cars that roller coaster over cobblestone streets that have settled with age and that are filled with old Ladas, but Lviv does. But Lviv looks like Beverly Hills compared to the countryside where the toothless peasants ride horse drawn hay wagons. It is sort of mind boggling that 500 miles from Berlin you have people doing subsistence farming at income levels we usually associate with Africa.

    I stayed in a spectacular pre-WWI apartment that had maybe 20 foot ceilings and had been (somewhat) renovated (in an unsuitable modern style) but the hallways and courtyard had exposed pipes and wires, etc. If that place was in the center of Paris, it would be worth I don’t know how many millions.

    OTOH, Paris doesn’t have Soviet trolley cars that roller coaster over cobblestone streets that have settled with age and that are filled with old Ladas, but Lviv does. But Lviv looks like Beverly Hills compared to the countryside where the toothless peasants ride horse drawn hay wagons. It is sort of mind boggling that 500 miles from Berlin you have people doing subsistence farming at income levels we usually associate with Africa.

    Yes this kind of mismatch between grand architecture and present economic reality can be interesting.

    It can also go in both directions. I think of Tel Aviv as a reverse of this, that has inherited in the majority of its buildings, third-world style, crumbling architecture (the ones from the 1930s having some aesthetic value/renovation potential; the ones from the 1950s-60s having none) – all of which in a surreal mismatch with the fast growing economy in the city, and which leads to million dollar prices demanded for favela like buildings on half-collapsing streets.

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    • Replies: @Jack D
    Silicon Valley is also afflicted with million dollar shacks. Generally speaking this is a sign that things are going well although it is bad for young people trying to buy their 1st home.

    OTOH, you can buy rather grand homes in the city of Detroit for peanuts but no one wants to live there.

    The super charming part of Lviv is confined to the old downtown. Surrounding that, the Soviets built lots of grim looking housing projects that look like postwar government housing projects everywhere.
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  144. Jack D says:
    @3g4me
    @64 Jack D: " Yiddish was considered among some snotty people to be a sort of pidgin German and low class (when in fact it is a language unto itself)"

    Yiddish is an amalgamation of pidgin German and Russian written in the Hebrew alphabet. Jews demand its recognition as a "language" just as Haitians pretend they speak French.

    Linguists will tell you that there is no bright line between a pidgin or dialect and a “language”. Weinreich, the Noah Webster of Yiddish, said that a language is a dialect with an army and a navy.

    Not many Russian words in Yiddish, at least Yiddish as spoken in non-Russian speaking areas. Yiddish was (as spoken by the Orthodox still is) short on detailed vocabulary – there is a word for bird, saw and tree, etc. but you just use the local names for birch, robin, oak, hawk, radial arm saw, etc.

    Haitians don’t pretend to speak French nowadays – they freely admit that they are speaking Kreyol (Creole).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creole_language

    Creole languages start out as mixes but eventually they become true languages – they have their own grammatical structure and babies learn them the same as they learn any other native language. If you go back far enough, French itself is a Creole of Latin.

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  145. syonredux says:
    @Steve Sailer
    Italy was extremely poor and overpopulated, but it was also ITALY, one of the world's great civilizations. Thus it was awfully hard for Italian immigrants to forget.

    Italy was extremely poor and overpopulated, but it was also ITALY, one of the world’s great civilizations. Thus it was awfully hard for Italian immigrants to forget.

    The Roman Empire and the Renaissance, that’s one hell of a one-two.

    Maybe that’s why Italians, on average, seem less prone to nursing grudges over slights that their immigrant ancestors endured. Having your country be that central to Western Civilization must inspire a good degree of confidence.

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  146. Jack D says:
    @Dmitry
    Although the high culture or civilization of the nation, would not all have been in this time (late 19th century) assimilated by the average immigrant coming to the United States. (I guess most of the immigrants of this era would not yet have been able to speak standardized Italian).

    Especially since most came from Sicily and other parts of Southern Italy that historically had been Greek, Arab, Bourbon French, etc. – the Roman Empire was a distant memory that meant nothing to them.

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    Especially since most came from Sicily and other parts of Southern Italy that historically had been Greek, Arab, Bourbon French, etc. – the Roman Empire was a distant memory that meant nothing to them.

     

    The main waves of immigration happened while Italy is going through a period of amazing cultural flourishing. But the extent to which this penetrates through to the demographic from which the average immigrant came is another matter.

    For a maybe more extreme example. Nowadays, everyone in the world knows of unrivaled cultural flourishing that occurred in 19th century Russia. But it was happening in very small, if expanding, circles. Even into the beginning of the 20th century, only one in four people in the empire could actually read.

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  147. Romanian says: • Website
    @Peter Akuleyev
    I know. What was wrong with Bessarabia? That is actually a much cooler name in English, and doesn't remind you of "mold". That country needs some marketing help. Almost as stupid as Ukrainians insisting on the incredible ugly and nonsensical in English "Kyiv".

    Bessarabia is a later name that refers to the rump part of the medieval Moldavian kingdom which came under Czarist rule and later become the Republic of Moldova and the Chervnitsi (Cernăuți) oblast and half of the Odessa oblast of Ukraine (marked by the White Citadel on the Dniester River). Bessarabia is named so for the Basarabs, a royal dynasty of Moldova, and it was how the Russians referred to it after 1812, just like the Bukowina subregion, which is split between Romania and Ukraine (Cernăuți), was named so by Habsburg rulers. Moldova was supposedly name for its initial capital, which was named after the Moldova River, which was, in legend, named for the drowned dog (Molda) of the voivode who settled the lands from the West. Historians have argued various linguistic origins.

    So Bessarabia is only part of the historical whole (the Kingdom) to which both irredentist (unionist) Romanians and the Moldovenists who insist on a separate statehood and nationhood subscribe.

    Edit It seems to have posted twice!

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  148. Romanian says: • Website
    @Peter Akuleyev
    I know. What was wrong with Bessarabia? That is actually a much cooler name in English, and doesn't remind you of "mold". That country needs some marketing help. Almost as stupid as Ukrainians insisting on the incredible ugly and nonsensical in English "Kyiv".

    Bessarabia is a later name that refers to the rump part of the medieval Moldavian kingdom which came under Czarist rule and later become the Republic of Moldova and the Chervnitsi (Cernăuți) oblast and half of the Odessa oblast of Ukraine. Bessarabia is named so for the Basarabs, a royal dynasty of Moldova, and it was how the Russians referred to it after 1812, just like the Bukowina subregion, which is split between Romania and Ukraine (Cernăuți), was named so by Habsburg rulers. Moldova was supposedly name for its initial capital, which was named after the Moldova River, which was, in legend, named for the drowned dog (Molda) of the voivode who settled the lands from the West. Historians have argued various linguistic origins.

    So Bessarabia is only part of the historical whole (the Kingdom) to which both irredentist (unionist) Romanians and the Moldovenists who insist on a separate statehood and nationhood subscribe.

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  149. syonredux says:
    @Dmitry

    Note how he’s boasting about intra-Jewish diversity in Israel while condemning White America for its homogeneity. A more honest observer would note all the intra-White diversity in America:Poles, Irish, Germans, Italians, Scandinavians, Greeks, etc. But I guess that Christian Europeans are just an undifferentiated mass to him.
     
    It's not completely accurately written. In your case - you mention two groups: mostly pale people (Poles, Irish, Germans, Scandinavians) and then mostly light brown people (Italians, Greeks.) In this example, there is more cultural diversity, but two races.

    Whereas in Israel, you have pale people, light-brown people, medium-brown people, dark-brown people, black-people, etc, - i.e. most types in the planet represented. And the main divide in the country is religion, not the different races.

    Israel is one of the more racially diverse small countries in the world. At the same time, it has a conscious immigration policy, and the government is desperately trying to engineer its demographics. But the divide in this is again religion, not race.

    Israel is a very useful example for showing a kind of new-world country, where the government is trying to improve its demographics. Western countries could emulate the restrictiveness of the immigration system, only using different variables for the selection process. But if you want to put it up as an example of homogeneity? It's the opposite of that. If you want example of homogeneity, look at places like Japan.

    It’s not completely accurately written. In your case – you mention two groups: mostly pale people (Poles, Irish, Germans, Scandinavians) and then mostly light brown people (Italians, Greeks.) In this example, there is more cultural diversity, but two races.

    Whereas in Israel, you have pale people, light-brown people, medium-brown people, dark-brown people, black-people, etc, – i.e. most types in the planet represented.

    Not a lot of Israeli citizens are South Asian or East Asian. That’s a big chunk of humanity…..

    And the main divide in the country is religion, not the different races.

    So, he wants the USA to split along religious lines….That could work….Although it wouldn’t exactly put the Jews in a good position….

    Israel is one of the more racially diverse small countries in the world. At the same time, it has a conscious immigration policy, and the government is desperately trying to engineer its demographics. But the divide in this is again religion, not race.

    De facto racial policy. The bulk of the world’s Jews are Caucasoids. And the attempt to assimilate Ethiopian Jews has not gone well….

    . But if you want to put it up as an example of homogeneity? It’s the opposite of that. If you want example of homogeneity, look at places like Japan.

    Actually, Israeli demographics are closer to our own. Both countries have alien minorities (Latinx, Blacks, and Muslims in the USA, Arabs in Israel). That’s why Israel is a good example for the USA to follow. Unlike us, they are trying to prevent an ALIEN NATION scenario,

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  150. Dmitry says:
    @Jack D
    Especially since most came from Sicily and other parts of Southern Italy that historically had been Greek, Arab, Bourbon French, etc. - the Roman Empire was a distant memory that meant nothing to them.

    Especially since most came from Sicily and other parts of Southern Italy that historically had been Greek, Arab, Bourbon French, etc. – the Roman Empire was a distant memory that meant nothing to them.

    The main waves of immigration happened while Italy is going through a period of amazing cultural flourishing. But the extent to which this penetrates through to the demographic from which the average immigrant came is another matter.

    For a maybe more extreme example. Nowadays, everyone in the world knows of unrivaled cultural flourishing that occurred in 19th century Russia. But it was happening in very small, if expanding, circles. Even into the beginning of the 20th century, only one in four people in the empire could actually read.

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  151. 3g4me says:
    @Steve Sailer
    Italy was extremely poor and overpopulated, but it was also ITALY, one of the world's great civilizations. Thus it was awfully hard for Italian immigrants to forget.

    @130 Steve Sailer: “Italy was extremely poor and overpopulated, but it was also ITALY, one of the world’s great civilizations. Thus it was awfully hard for Italian immigrants to forget.”

    Italy is a beautiful country with an immensely rich cultural heritage. However, the vast majority of the immigrants I have documented were the the descendants of numerous generations from the same isolated villages. Most had never traveled more than a handful of miles from their homes. One side of my husband’ Italian ancestors trace back to at least the 1600s in the very same village. The commune one set of great-grandparents were from was only about 50 miles as the crow flies from the native village of the other set of great-grandparents, but if they hadn’t immigrated to America and settled in the same place, his grandparents never would have met and married.

    They weren’t pining for the glories of Rome or Micheangelo; they were merely typical peasant immigrants with heavily intermarried families and centuries of ties to the same place.

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    Italian village life is more aesthetically pleasing than village life in much of the world.
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  152. Elsewhere says:
    @Anonymous
    Is it just me or does Obama saying he didn't personally hear Rev. Wright's more egregious statements in all those years sound a whole lot like President Clinton saying "I didn't inhale"?

    And within every shithole there may be intact pieces of corn that just need better ground.

    LOL!

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  153. Romanian says: • Website
    @BB753
    What's the deal with the breakaway part of Moldavia which claims to be independent, called Transnitria? Mostly Russian and Ukrainian populated, I guess.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transnistria

    Well, you have to understand that the ethnic territorial delineations in Europe are not very good, even after all of the immigration, the forced assimilation, the ethnic cleansings. Romanians extend from the West Balkans to the Bug river (where Kiev is) and from the immediate North all the way to Greece. Greater Romania encompassed the areas where Romanians were a majority and which corresponded to the old “principalities” and kingdoms (the first iteration of the Romanian state was referred to as the Danubian Principalities, and consisted of Wallachia and Moldova without the Republic of Moldova, which is known as Bessarabia). It also included enclaves of minority Romanian areas, like the Szekely Land area which features in the news for autonomy, but was not on the border with Hungary to have stayed there.

    Transnistria literally means beyond the Dniester. It is a Latin formula just like Jordan used to be termed Transjordan and the West Bank was Cisjordan. It was never part of a historical Romanian kingdom, but did feature the largest Romanian population outside the Eastern borders of Moldova. When Greater Romania formed in 1918 and its borders were confirmed by the Treaty of Trianon, the USSR, which had lost Bessarabia in the chaos of the post-Revolutionary period, set up a Moldovan Soviet Republic consisting of Transnistria, which had enough Romanians/Moldovans to be presented as legitimately Moldovan, despite not belonging to the historical Kingdom.

    Then, in 1940, the USSR gave Romania an ultimatum to surrender Bessarabia or be invaded. The King assented to do so without a fight, which still divides Romanians today and set in motion the rise to power of the Legionary State and then of Marechal Antonescu, as well as our Axis membership, specifically to first gain back Bessarabia (though we went further and took Odessa as well, Antonescu apologists arguing that he intended to use the Transnistria Governorate, as it was called and maintained separate administratively from the indivisible Romania which had recovered Bessarabia, to negotiate with the Nazis for the return of Northern Transylvania, which had been taken by Hungary). In the end, we lost Bessarabia, but regained Northern Transylvania, by grace of Stalin, after the Antonescu regime was deposed and we conveniently turned to the side of the Allies.

    Romania became a reluctant member of the Warsaw Pact and eventually started pursuing independent policies. Bessarabia was divided between the Moldovan SSR, which included Transnistria (the rump Tranistria that started it all and is still there today), while the Northern and Southern parts of Bessarabia went to Ukraine and are still there. The argument was strategic – the Dniester is a very good lines of defense for Romania in an eventual war against it, which was a distinct possibility. Both Budjak (S. Bessarabia) and N. Bukowina and Hertza in the North allowed for the bypass of most natural obstacles for an invading force, while these areas were the least ethnically Moldo-Romanian so the least likely to maybe rise up like Bessarabia as a whole did in during unification. This year is the 100th anniversary of the unification of Greater Romania.

    In the end, there is a bit of a grey spot – when the component republics of the Soviet Union were declaring independence left and right within their existing administrative borders (including the various poison pills, like the Ossetians half in Georgia half in Russia, or Crimea in Ukraine) , Transnistria declared its independence from the USSR before Moldova actually did. When Moldova declared its independence, the conflict started with what it considered a breakaway region from its natural territory, which had the Soviet administrative borders. It is a terrible mess because Moldova was quite dependent on energy generation capabilities which were situated by Soviet planners beyond the Dniester, as well as heavy industry, specifically designed, just like the borders, to discourage secessionist politics. In time, the dependence lessens, but the issue of traffic passing through to Ukraine and then Russia remains, as does the issue of the huge debts that the little region has accumulated (for Gazprom gas deliveries) which it weirdly maintains are the sovereign responsibilities of Moldova. As a Romanian, I am biased, but the Transnistrians, who are still plurality Romanian, but less so than other regions of Moldova, with the exception of the Gagauz Autonomous Areas (don’t ask), have had decades of extra Russification, USSR nostalgia and various other forms of cultural evolution which have further separated them from Moldova. Moldova, meanwhile, has developed a growing unionist block, sometimes at odds with its pro-European block, since unionists want to be in the EU and NATO by merging with Romania, though both are anti-Russian. Moldova has switched to Latin alphabet (which Kazakhstan will soon do) and declared in its constitution that it speaks the Romanian language, not the Moldovan, which was an attempt to create a separate identity which parts of the political class want to continue, even though the greater part of the medieval Kingdom and its population is in Romania and we count its heroes and poets as our national heroes and poets.

    I doubt that Russia has any sort of irredentist designs on the region and it would be a fiscal black hole for it worse than Crimea (the Moldovan GDP/capita is six times less than Romania and 7 times than Russia) and so is far less attractive than the Baltics, though even that possibility is remote (the Russians are seemingly unwilling to attach the Ukrainian Lugansk and Donetsk breakaway regions, despite the fact that they would welcome it). But it is useful. A frozen conflict with a territory full of Russian peacekeepers (who are basically blockaded there by both Ukraine and Moldova) prevents Moldova from moving towards Europe and Romania. For our part, we couldn’t care less about Transnistria, it is an even worse mafia state than Moldova and is a lot poorer than it and we can always give citizenship to Romanians there, if they want it. It is also indefensible geographically But the solution to the conflict and the prospect of Russian retreat from the area (though it had been promised and signed in past treaties) passes through a political solution for the area.

    Russia insists, like in Ukraine, that the solution involves federalization in order to safeguard the interests of the Transnistrians. This automatically means a veto of any European or Atlanticist aspirations on the part of Moldova, just like it would for Ukraine, which would mean the maintenance of Russian influence in its near abroad. It is a concern on the part of Russians which I understand and I too wish to be as far away from Russia, though they recently became our neighbor again on the Exclusive Economic Zone in the Black Sea, because of Crimea. The Russians would probably approve in a heartbeat the reunification of Romania with Moldova if it were done under a federal arrangement, since this would give their Moldovan agents (both the dwindling Russian population and the Russophone and Russophile Romanians) significant leverage. Even the irredentists in Hungary would welcome the expansion of Romania under these terms, since Szekely Land would likely negotiate to become a federal entity, rather than the three counties it is today. So there is an element of risk here, since this would severely weaken Romania in more ways than one (the other being the spread of Moldovan and Russian crime syndicates in Romania, which has been opposed in recent decades by the secret service and the more domesticated Romanian crime syndicates; one of the Romanian millionaires at the nexus of the intelligence services and organized crime was caught on tape bragging about burying mobsters from Moldova in the forest in the 1990s). But Transnistria is utterly irrelevant outside of the Great Game being played in Eastern Europe, where it is a sideshow to Ukraine and its fate will ultimately depend on that of Ukraine, just as the Moldovan elites used to take their cues from Kiev.

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    • Agree: Dmitry
    • Replies: @International Jew
    Thanks for that interesting lesson in Romanian history. You did, however, understate Romania's activity in WW2. Romania's army didn't stop at Odessa. It accompanied Germany's all the way to Stalingrad. And you've overlooked entirely that when Romania retook Bessarabia and Northern Bukowina, it massacred the Jews with an enthusiasm worthy of the Germans.

    As it was just for Germany to lose Silesia, Pomerania and East Prussia for its crimes during the war, Romania richly deserved all its territorial losses.

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  154. @3g4me
    @130 Steve Sailer: "Italy was extremely poor and overpopulated, but it was also ITALY, one of the world’s great civilizations. Thus it was awfully hard for Italian immigrants to forget."

    Italy is a beautiful country with an immensely rich cultural heritage. However, the vast majority of the immigrants I have documented were the the descendants of numerous generations from the same isolated villages. Most had never traveled more than a handful of miles from their homes. One side of my husband' Italian ancestors trace back to at least the 1600s in the very same village. The commune one set of great-grandparents were from was only about 50 miles as the crow flies from the native village of the other set of great-grandparents, but if they hadn't immigrated to America and settled in the same place, his grandparents never would have met and married.

    They weren't pining for the glories of Rome or Micheangelo; they were merely typical peasant immigrants with heavily intermarried families and centuries of ties to the same place.

    Italian village life is more aesthetically pleasing than village life in much of the world.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    But it's just as insular and as isolated.
    , @Peter Akuleyev
    Italian village life is more aesthetically pleasing than village life in much of the world.


    Italian village life anywhere south of Naples was pretty horrible, and not much better than living in Albania or Morocco (actually, in the 19th century Morocco might have been nicer). I guess no one reads Christ stopped at Eboli anymore.
    , @Dmitry
    But such matters may hardly have occurred to the majority of local people of the time. Modern tourist views and the historical local view, can be very different things.

    Beautiful aesthetics were usually a lot lower down the list of priorities for locals in those countries and times, as often they are still in our time. (Even if Italy in 21st century has the fortune of being the country in the world where an aesthetic education has penetrated most deeply into the population).

    You only have to read about how happy people were in the 1950s to move from quaint and much more beautiful old buildings, to ugly modern housing blocks.

    People would not give a damn for aesthetic or cultural considerations in demolishing some old village square, if it gave them the chance (as was possible with for example the Khrushchev housing projects) to get their own bathroom, .

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  155. JackOH says:
    @3g4me
    @5 Anonymous: NYT Pick Comment "My grandparents and great grandparents came from Naples, Italy around 1900 when that “hole” was said to produce dirty, sneaky, criminally inclined immigrants. They were, to use the racist parlance of the day, “greaseballs.”

    My husband's four maternal great-grandparents immigrated from Campania in the mid 1880s. While they settled in New Jersey, numerous relatives and friends from one particular commune landed elsewhere around the country (the son of one such immigrant family essentially ran away from home the day he turned 18 and went to the Klondike with the gold rush; he died in Alaska in the mid 1960s). After extensively tracing literally thousands of such immigrants and reading hundreds of newspaper articles from about 1895 onwards, my overall impression is that the Italians were the Mexicans of their day.

    They procreated extensively, were often heedless of their offsprings' antics (running away and hiding in strangers' barns, riding the trains, shoplifting, starting deadly fires in their tenements), were renowned for uncontrolled grudges and passions (lots of reports of knife fights and feuding in the Italian quarter) and assimilated only gradually over the years as forced by law, custom, and/or via intermarriage. The vast majority were not even small craftsmen (my husband's one shoemaker great-grandfather was an exception) but manual laborers - hod carriers, tunnel diggers, road construction, etc. Many of them traveled back and forth between the U.S. and Italy repeatedly (visit a cousin in NY to work for a few years and go home, then stay with a brother-in-law in Chicago for a few years and go home, etc.).

    They did not come for "freedom" and "democracy." They came for purely economic reasons (the wife of one distant relative was interviewed by the Ellis Island Project; she stated quite frankly that her father much preferred working set hours in the factory to struggling on a small, remote, hilltop farm and her mother never wanted to leave Italy). I've documented a number of immigrants who became labor agitators, others who became explicitly ethnic city politicians, etc. While the vast majority didn't seem to do explicit harm to America, neither did they bestow awesome benefits on their new country. By the 1940s they were the urban equivalent of dated farm equipment.

    While they were never considered non-White, neither were they considered "Americans." Some of their children and most of their grandchildren were, as they intermarried , moved away from their ethnic enclaves, became educated professionals, etc. They (and all the other post 1880 immigrants) certainly changed America at least as much as it changed them. "Assimilation," or what I'd more accurately term semi-nationality by adoption, is a two way street, and many of the earlier Americans were legitimately dubious at the invasion and eventual dominance of their neighborhoods and towns by thousands of foreigners from all corners of the globe. The only saving grace is that the vast majority were White, European Christians, with just enough of a religious and racial and cultural component in common to very, very gradually turn peasants into hyphenated Americans.

    As demonstrated by that odious NYT comment, many of them remain hyphenated Americans to this day, idolizing their not-particularly exceptional ancestors as all exclusively hard working, honest, and sober people (they weren't). They retain aggrieved that they were rightfully resented for taking over and remaking parts of America more in their own image. They expect eternal gratitude for their unexceptional and miniscule part of the American experience (muh grandfather/uncles/cousins fought the evil notsees in WWII!).

    America, on the whole, didn't truly "need" them and would have done fine without them. Most of them should have been denied entry. The rest need to shut up (unless to express gratitude for being allowed in) and work on learning real history as opposed to the sainted immigrant narrative, and ponder what it really means to be an "American" - with NO HYPHEN - and then devote their lives to becoming the best damn facsimile they can manage. Otherwise, they need to go back.

    Brilliant comment, 3g, hat’s off to you. Don’t have time for a robust reply, but we could certainly stand revisiting those standard-issue immigrant narratives we’ve all been fed. BTW-I grew up in an industrial city that was very multi-ethnic, multi-racial, and it’s common knowledge among observant folks that some large fraction of European descendants remain as suspicious, insular, narrow, conniving, and grasping as their immigrant forebears. Their “Americanism”, a sense of fellow-feeling and common cause with their neighbors, is real enough–but it’s thin.

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    • Replies: @Desiderius

    it’s common knowledge among observant folks that some large fraction of European descendants remain as suspicious, insular, narrow, conniving, and grasping as their immigrant forebears. Their “Americanism”, a sense of fellow-feeling and common cause with their neighbors, is real enough–but it’s thin.
     
    As if the American Elite (sic) lecturing us incessantly weren't just as suspicious, insular, narrow, conniving, and grasping. It's not Americanism that gets one beyond such things, it's maturity within a strong, healthy community where trust works.
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  156. denjae says:
    @Steve Sailer
    Naples waste management issue
    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Uncollected garbage in Naples, 2010.
    The Naples waste management crisis is a series of events surrounding the lack of waste collection in the city of Naples that peaked in the summer of 2008, and regarding the disposal of the trash is currently unresolved. ...

    Reports during the summer of 2008 stated that the problem was caused at least in part by the Camorra, a powerful local mafia based in Campania, who had created a lucrative business in the municipal waste disposal business. Heavy metals, industrial waste, and chemicals and household waste are frequently mixed together, then dumped near roads and burned to avoid detection, leading to severe soil and air pollution.[3]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naples_waste_management_issue

    “Heavy metals, industrial waste, and chemicals and household waste are frequently mixed together, then dumped near roads and burned to avoid detection, leading to severe soil and air pollution.”

    Just like back roads in the mountains off of I-75 between Knoxville and Chattanooga TN.

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    • Replies: @Desiderius

    Just like back roads in the mountains off of I-75 between Knoxville and Chattanooga TN.
     
    Wonder if that's why its always raining on that stretch. Particularly around Dayton, TN.
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  157. @Hibernian
    I read Emil and the Detectives as a child. In English.

    I read Emil and the Detectives as a child. In English

    So did I. It was the weirdest thing I read as a child.

    Disney made a movie of it. Another German-derived hit of theirs was The Parent Trap, which is about as square and straightforward as you can get.

    Those two extremes seem to dominate German culture, or at least that segment of it which makes it over here.

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    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
    Both based on books by Erich Kastner. Try his "35th of May": it's in the same tradition as "Phantom Tollbooth" and the "Alice" books.
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  158. GSR says:

    Jews have an obsession with immigration. So tiring.

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  159. SMK says: • Website
    @John Derbyshire
    >shitholier-than-thou

    That's very good. Shall plagiarize.

    Stephen’s hatred of white gentiles is obsessive and virulent and pathological, probably genocidal in his cryptic fantasies, or when talking in private to those with similar passions, vengeance for the Holocaust. To Stephens, white gentiles as a group are Nazis.

    And what’s his paint(s), exactly, about Moldova? That because Moldova, a white country, is a “hole,” Moldovan in particular and Europeans in general are precisely the same as Haitians and Negros from the countries of Sub-Saharan Africa in statistical intelligence and so forth? Because Moldova is a “hole,” the U.S. should not only condone but celebrate an invasion of tens of millions of legal and illegal aliens from hell-holes like Haiti and Sub-Saharan Africa, Mexico and Central America, the Islamic nations and cultures of North and East Africa and the Middle-East, including Somalia? An invasion that will soon turn the U.S. into a nonwhite-majority hell-hole but one in which the rise of a Nazi-like regime will be impossible.

    Lastly, one reason “Moldova” is such a “hole” is because it was ruled for decades by communists, the apparatchiks and commissars of an ideology created by Jews.

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  160. Jack D says:
    @Dmitry

    I stayed in a spectacular pre-WWI apartment that had maybe 20 foot ceilings and had been (somewhat) renovated (in an unsuitable modern style) but the hallways and courtyard had exposed pipes and wires, etc. If that place was in the center of Paris, it would be worth I don’t know how many millions.

    OTOH, Paris doesn’t have Soviet trolley cars that roller coaster over cobblestone streets that have settled with age and that are filled with old Ladas, but Lviv does. But Lviv looks like Beverly Hills compared to the countryside where the toothless peasants ride horse drawn hay wagons. It is sort of mind boggling that 500 miles from Berlin you have people doing subsistence farming at income levels we usually associate with Africa.
     

    Yes this kind of mismatch between grand architecture and present economic reality can be interesting.

    It can also go in both directions. I think of Tel Aviv as a reverse of this, that has inherited in the majority of its buildings, third-world style, crumbling architecture (the ones from the 1930s having some aesthetic value/renovation potential; the ones from the 1950s-60s having none) - all of which in a surreal mismatch with the fast growing economy in the city, and which leads to million dollar prices demanded for favela like buildings on half-collapsing streets.

    Silicon Valley is also afflicted with million dollar shacks. Generally speaking this is a sign that things are going well although it is bad for young people trying to buy their 1st home.

    OTOH, you can buy rather grand homes in the city of Detroit for peanuts but no one wants to live there.

    The super charming part of Lviv is confined to the old downtown. Surrounding that, the Soviets built lots of grim looking housing projects that look like postwar government housing projects everywhere.

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    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Was Lviv in Ukraine one of the few old-time Central European cities not to get flattened in WWII? I guess Prague is the best known.
    , @Authenticjazzman
    " You can buy rather grand homes in the city of Detroit for peanuts but no one wants to live there"

    Amen Bro, in Rosedale Park, Boston Edison, Indian village, and other neighborhoods you will see some of the most elaborate european style stone and brick mansions, complete with marvelous stonework, tile roofing, stained glass windows , etc.
    Plus the wonderful art-deco skyscrapers such as the Fisher building, Guardian building, Penobscot building, etc. The looby of the Fisher building is breathtaking and magical.
    I grew up in Detroit and the destruction of this former world-class metropolis breaks my heart.
    And of course we know who we can thank for this monumental tragedy : the democrat nut-cases who have been running/ruining the city for the last fifty-plus years, period.
    Recently no less than fourteen high school principles were on trial for accepting bribes, people who had huge salaries and more side "Benefits" than one can imagine, and yet they took thousands of dollars in bribes from contractors : Democrats.
    My departed mother detested the ground Coleman Young walked upon.

    Authenticjazzman "Mensa" qualified since 1973, airborne trained US Army vet, and pro jazz musician.

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  161. 3g4me says:
    @Hibernian
    I believe Irish immigrants came for religious and political freedom as well as economic reasons.

    @134 Hibernian: “I believe Irish immigrants came for religious and political freedom as well as economic reasons.”

    Sigh. It’s really not all about you or your specific or ethnic ancestors. Undoubtedly there were some arrivals due to political repression, but the vast majority of all immigrants to America from 1880 on were economic. There’s nothing particularly evil about that, but it would be nice for some honesty instead of “muh sacred immigrant ancestors.”

    Another set of my husband’s great-grandparents (on the paternal side) were Irish immigrants, so I take license to bash them equally. Look, I’m not condemning anyone as evil, but neither were they unique. As I said, the great wave of immigrants changed America dramatically – and in many negative ways (check out the Jewish riots in NY 1906/1907 against Christmas songs and observances in school). I’d argue part of the reason the FDR was able to get away with multiple terms in office and many of his blatantly socialist programs was because so many of the cities were filled with immigrant voters and their children, and as I also said, even partial “assimilation” takes a whole lotta time and pressure and intermarriage. I’m talking multiple generations here (minimum 4).

    Again, their sole saving grace was that they were White European Christians. There was something to work with there, and, after a few generations, an only moderate visual distinction among most (on the Italian side, in my husband’s immediate ancestors alone, there were Italian-Irish, Italian-Czech, and Italian-German marriages). The post 1965 immigrants and their descendants are alien – racially, culturally, and religiously. They have even less of an understanding of English common law and social practices than the hyphenated European Americans did and do. Again, a tiny handful might be able to abide by and truly internalize “American” virtues and values, but most will not (even if they were willing and/or compelled). Consider that the American Negro has been here 400 years and only a miniscule number can live as independent, educated, responsible adults, let alone as good neighbors.

    We’re no exception to the laws of God and nature or the pattern of human history.
    Diversity + proximity = war.

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    • Replies: @Hibernian
    "Another set of my husband’s great-grandparents (on the paternal side) were Irish immigrants, so I take license to bash them equally."

    A co-worker of mine once called himself an equal opportunity Archie Bunker.
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  162. @anonymouslee
    One of the more pathetic aspects of contemporary political rhetoric is its failure to meet standards of persuasive argument most of us learned when we transitioned from crying infants to wheedling toddlers.


    The comments on articles like this and in Twitter debates are absolutely stuffed to the brim with variations of, "You oppose illegal immigrants from Mexico demanding free bilingual healthcare? Hmmm, I guess you didn't know *my* own mother is one of those illegal immigrants who never learned English and depends on the welfare state. How stupid do you feel now?"


    Errm, well, not at all. Unfortunately, when we Anglo men respond to such absurdly naked appeals to self-interest by saying nothing, in a gallant attempt to avoid acknowledging their humiliating failure to engage in rational discourse, they take our silence as embarrassment in our own stated view.

    It's facially retarded nonsense from your average low-IQ interlocutor and ostentatiously obnoxious chutzpah from smarter, more sophisticated intellectuals (though, as Steve has noted, a few generations in and even the Jews stop being in on the joke of their grandparents' droll feint of naively explicit solipsism).

    To the disinterested observer of rhetoric this most common tack is so spectacular a catastrophe as to beggar belief. Could a sane adult of intellectual maturity even conceive of such an approach?

    Imagine an English gentleman of a few centuries ago having a reasoned debate with a sincere opponent of aristocratic privilege in the political sphere. At some point our Tory partisan offers what he considers his ace in the hole, a dispositive climax, a triumphant coup de grace: "Yes, but I suppose you did not know that the entire time we were debating this, *my own father*, the Duke of Piddlington, was exercising his aristocratic rights in the House of Lords, warming the very seat that I will inherit for my own self. How foolish must you feel now, having opposed the legitimacy of aristocratic power! I will graciously accept your apology for daring to question that which benefits and comforts me."


    In a civilized society one is obliged to offer better reasons for his position than "because I want it this way." Only babies and tyrants dare offer nought but demands.

    In a civilized society one is obliged to offer better reasons for his position than “because I want it this way.”

    Looks like that’s not what we have then.

    Only babies and tyrants dare offer nought but demands.

    You’re getting warmer.

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  163. @denjae
    "Heavy metals, industrial waste, and chemicals and household waste are frequently mixed together, then dumped near roads and burned to avoid detection, leading to severe soil and air pollution."

    Just like back roads in the mountains off of I-75 between Knoxville and Chattanooga TN.

    Just like back roads in the mountains off of I-75 between Knoxville and Chattanooga TN.

    Wonder if that’s why its always raining on that stretch. Particularly around Dayton, TN.

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  164. @JackOH
    Brilliant comment, 3g, hat's off to you. Don't have time for a robust reply, but we could certainly stand revisiting those standard-issue immigrant narratives we've all been fed. BTW-I grew up in an industrial city that was very multi-ethnic, multi-racial, and it's common knowledge among observant folks that some large fraction of European descendants remain as suspicious, insular, narrow, conniving, and grasping as their immigrant forebears. Their "Americanism", a sense of fellow-feeling and common cause with their neighbors, is real enough--but it's thin.

    it’s common knowledge among observant folks that some large fraction of European descendants remain as suspicious, insular, narrow, conniving, and grasping as their immigrant forebears. Their “Americanism”, a sense of fellow-feeling and common cause with their neighbors, is real enough–but it’s thin.

    As if the American Elite (sic) lecturing us incessantly weren’t just as suspicious, insular, narrow, conniving, and grasping. It’s not Americanism that gets one beyond such things, it’s maturity within a strong, healthy community where trust works.

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    • Replies: @JackOH
    Desiderius, I am talking about the White elites in my area, people of ethnic stock whose families have been financially comfortable and politically influential for two generations or more, but who act as though they'd suffered the same indignities as their ancestors a century earlier.

    I put "Americanism" in quotes because I wasn't sure that was the right term. Maybe the awkward "bigness of soul" might work a little better, the kind of thing that animated the earliest settlers in my area, mostly folks of English ancestry with a streak of quiet religiosity running through them.
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  165. They [immigrants] don’t bring crime to cities. They drive out crime by starting businesses and families in shrinking cities or underserved neighborhoods.

    If you add relatively lower crime demographics to higher crime areas, you will lower crime. If you add relatively higher crime demographics to lower crime areas, you will raise crime.

    The idea that adding any immigrants regardless of which immigrants you choose, will always lower crime, all of the time, is just absurd. Bret Stephens writes of immigrants, like they are magic pixie dust you sprinkle on a city and they solve all problems.

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  166. inertial says:
    @Jack D
    I visited Lviv (Lvov, Lemberg) because my mother's shtetl, which I wanted to see, is not far away. The center is an extremely well preserved Austro-Hungarian provincial city in the sense that Havana is well preserved. WWI and WWII managed to miss the place and the Russians never put much money into it so it stayed sort of preserved in amber. I stayed in a spectacular pre-WWI apartment that had maybe 20 foot ceilings and had been (somewhat) renovated (in an unsuitable modern style) but the hallways and courtyard had exposed pipes and wires, etc. If that place was in the center of Paris, it would be worth I don't know how many millions.

    OTOH, Paris doesn't have Soviet trolley cars that roller coaster over cobblestone streets that have settled with age and that are filled with old Ladas, but Lviv does. But Lviv looks like Beverly Hills compared to the countryside where the toothless peasants ride horse drawn hay wagons. It is sort of mind boggling that 500 miles from Berlin you have people doing subsistence farming at income levels we usually associate with Africa.

    The part of Ukraine you are describing is Ukrainian equivalent of Appalachia. Yes, it’s quite backward and is populated by yokels (or so is their reputation in the rest of Ukraine.) Developed parts of Ukraine are East and South, plus Kiev.

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  167. @Jack D
    He said $8 per WEEK, not day.

    In 1900, the US average wage was $450 per year, so $8/week was ballpark. An unskilled Negro laborer would have made as little as $3/week - $8 was a wage for a skilled tradesman.

    $8 is equivalent to $160/week in today's $. Of course there was no state or federal income tax so the takehome would have been the full amount. If you are making minimum wage today, by the time they take out various deductions and you pay even more taxes when you buy something, your net buying power is probably not much more than $160. The US in 1900 was a poorer country than today but $8/week would have been enough to buy the basics. Beef was 6 cents/lb. , a gallon of milk cost a dime, a loaf of bread was a nickel. Some things were relatively more expensive than today. They hadn't made the big breakthru in mass poultry raising so a dozen eggs was a quarter ($5.00 in our money) and chicken was $.13/lb. (twice as much as beef).

    Thank you, Jack, and “a reader” too, for finding my error, and for the correction. OTOH, you both missed my other mistake in reading. It was not Stephen’s Dad, but his Granddad, so his Dad could have made 8$ a day after all!

    See, 2 wrongs do make a right sometimes. ;-}

    Anyway, I always appreciate your factual posts, Jack D. I don’t think I’ve disagreed with your opinions very often either.

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  168. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

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    I like this guy!
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  169. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @slumber_j
    You need to reassess your thinking. After all, there's for example Haitian-American Jean-Michel Basquiat's record-holding painting:

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&ved=0ahUKEwiIjJXQ4NbYAhUXzWMKHQmaAJQQjRwIBw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.telegraph.co.uk%2Fnews%2F2017%2F05%2F19%2Fbasquiatpainting-fetches-record-1105-million-new-york-auction%2F&psig=AOvVaw1pYdItsOcZTgMlG24ZXLYe&ust=1515995269073103

    Sadly, his long-ago drug overdose renders Mr. Basquiat himself unavailable as an example of Haitian-American excellence. But art is eternal!

    http://robertmaier.us/2012/03/03/jean-michel-basquait-underground-artist-and-six-million-dollar-man/

    Jean-Michel Basquiat: Underground Artist and Six Million Dollar Man

    I lived and worked in downtown New York City in the early 1980s when the arts were going through big changes. Andy Warhol was rich, but at a dip in his career. Hanging out with jet set celebrities at Studio 54 and doing their portraits based on Polaroid snapshots for $50,000, he had become a sell-out to many. I bought several of his books on a remainder table in a Soho bookstore for a buck each. They were signed, which John Waters said made them so cheap—Andy signed so many things that his unsigned stuff was worth more than the signed.

    I worked with Chris Stein and Debbie Harry—and many others– on the movie, “Downtown 81,” which was mostly a documentary about the downtown underground “no wave,” music scene which sprouted from the angry, apocalyptic near-bankrupt NYC where 3-card Monty dealers and window-washing bums ruled the dirty streets, and the burned out and abandoned South Bronx appeared to be the vision of the future.

    Graffiti was the hot new art form, so had to be in the artiest movie of the time. I didn’t pay much attention to it. I wasn’t an art collector. I had bought a few things from Baltimore artists in the Waters crowd, not as an art investor, but because they were close to starving, and I had a steady job.

    Jean-Michel Basquiat was the star of Downtown 81, because he was a tireless tagger of the New York landscape with his notorious “SAMO” which was sprayed in white on countless downtown structures and vehicles. It was cheap publicity, and gained him notoriety, that held some promise of publicity for the no-budget no-wave movie producers.

    [MORE]

    I was in the art world, and it was interesting to see how it worked—and still does work. I bought a painting from Basquiat after his nearly continual hounding me to be a customer. He thought I was a rich man because I had a loft in Soho (small and rented cheap through a friend), and owned expensive movie equipment. He wasn’t dumb. He knew that rich people were the ones who bought art, and should be cultivated. His art was primitive, nearly on a kindergarten level if you were unkind. Several on the movie crew had bought paintings, not from love of his talent, but to get him off their backs. To me, Jean-Michel was a greater piece of work than his paintings, and promised that if he would just get off my back, when the movie was over, I’d bring my wife up to his place and buy something.

    Chris Stein and Debbie Harry fervently promoted Basquiat. They had bought many of his works, but a successful artist needs more than one patron, and at the time they were not big, rich stars like Mick Jagger and John Lennon. They encouraged me to add to my meager collection, if only for an investment. They confided they were working on big uptown names, because the key to an artist’s success was simply to get rich and famous people to buy their work. Nothing else mattered. You could have the crappiest gallery and the worst reviews, but if Halston or Elizabeth Taylor bought one of your works, you were platinum. Those were the kinds of people Chris and Debbie were working on. It was a different level from me, but in the meantime, a couple hundred bucks would help keep Jean-Michel off the streets, and his fire burning.

    When the movie finished, my wife and I visited Basquiat’s tiny, cluttered apartment off Houston Street. I only wanted the painting which was in the movie. He was reluctant to sell, but I was spending 100 hard-earned dollars, which would probably be $1,000 today, and I had little hope of ever seeing a return. Carrying it home, I was embarrassed that someone might think I had painted it, not to mention what they’d think knowing I’d paid the equivalent of $1,000 for it.

    Soon after, Jean-Michel was scooped up by Andy Warhol as a young prodigy, and through Andy’s uptown connections he skyrocketed. At his first Soho show, I was astounded to see that Jean-Michel’s paintings sold for $2,500, less than six months after I had paid $100 for mine. I’d never made such a smart investment, and vowed to hold onto it forever.

    I moved 5 or 6 times in that period, and always trucked the painting along, mainly as a souvenir of the time and place, and figuring it might be worth a couple thousand dollars too. It was a painting/collage dotted with scraps of crayon-streaked paper stuck on while the original paint was drying. Occasionally they’d fall off and I’d randomly paste them back on with Elmer’s glue.

    When the work was, to my great surprise, appraised for $10,000, I insured it, but in the tough economic times of the late ‘80s, I felt it had reached its max value. The downtown Manhattan art scene was being replaced by yuppies, and Jean-Michel was no longer the critics’ or upper Westsider’s darling. I was also in financial hot water at the time, and decided to sell the painting through Sotheby’s in New York. It sold for close to $10,000 and after commission I netted $7,500. It got me out of debt, and my credit cards re-instated. It was a pretty slick exit from Low Budget Hell. Or so I thought.

    A portion of Jean-Michel’s painting that I bought and sold– too early, alas.

    A few weeks ago, the AP ran a story that a Basquiat similar to mine was valued at $6 million. I choked on my oatmeal. So un- fathomable, but it’s repeated in the art world every day. I look at my old friend and colleague, John Waters’ simple doctored prints of photographs that sell for $11,000 each. Is the value in the work, or in what a few wealthy (some say crazy) people and friends can afford to risk? Will Waters’ work be worth millions in thirty years? Probably. Considering who his friends are, if I had 11 grand to spare, I’d buy one tomorrow.

    My own experience: I never met Basquiat. I have spent a little time with Chris Stein and Debbie Harry, together and singularly. (I did own one of Chris’ (former) guitars once.)

    Chris described Basquiat as being known for a terrible temper and being physically scary strengthwise. He also volunteered , unsolicited, that he was known to have a really big penis. (I didn’t enquire further as to how he knew, I doubt Stein is gay so….) From the tone of his remarks, I gathered he was never easy with D being around him alone, in terms of her safety.

    There’s a YouTube of the scene in the movie Downtown 81 of Harry and Basquiat but it’s blocked in the US. Oh well.

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  170. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Steve Sailer
    Italian village life is more aesthetically pleasing than village life in much of the world.

    But it’s just as insular and as isolated.

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  171. JackOH says:
    @Desiderius

    it’s common knowledge among observant folks that some large fraction of European descendants remain as suspicious, insular, narrow, conniving, and grasping as their immigrant forebears. Their “Americanism”, a sense of fellow-feeling and common cause with their neighbors, is real enough–but it’s thin.
     
    As if the American Elite (sic) lecturing us incessantly weren't just as suspicious, insular, narrow, conniving, and grasping. It's not Americanism that gets one beyond such things, it's maturity within a strong, healthy community where trust works.

    Desiderius, I am talking about the White elites in my area, people of ethnic stock whose families have been financially comfortable and politically influential for two generations or more, but who act as though they’d suffered the same indignities as their ancestors a century earlier.

    I put “Americanism” in quotes because I wasn’t sure that was the right term. Maybe the awkward “bigness of soul” might work a little better, the kind of thing that animated the earliest settlers in my area, mostly folks of English ancestry with a streak of quiet religiosity running through them.

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  172. @Romanian
    Well, you have to understand that the ethnic territorial delineations in Europe are not very good, even after all of the immigration, the forced assimilation, the ethnic cleansings. Romanians extend from the West Balkans to the Bug river (where Kiev is) and from the immediate North all the way to Greece. Greater Romania encompassed the areas where Romanians were a majority and which corresponded to the old "principalities" and kingdoms (the first iteration of the Romanian state was referred to as the Danubian Principalities, and consisted of Wallachia and Moldova without the Republic of Moldova, which is known as Bessarabia). It also included enclaves of minority Romanian areas, like the Szekely Land area which features in the news for autonomy, but was not on the border with Hungary to have stayed there.

    Transnistria literally means beyond the Dniester. It is a Latin formula just like Jordan used to be termed Transjordan and the West Bank was Cisjordan. It was never part of a historical Romanian kingdom, but did feature the largest Romanian population outside the Eastern borders of Moldova. When Greater Romania formed in 1918 and its borders were confirmed by the Treaty of Trianon, the USSR, which had lost Bessarabia in the chaos of the post-Revolutionary period, set up a Moldovan Soviet Republic consisting of Transnistria, which had enough Romanians/Moldovans to be presented as legitimately Moldovan, despite not belonging to the historical Kingdom.

    Then, in 1940, the USSR gave Romania an ultimatum to surrender Bessarabia or be invaded. The King assented to do so without a fight, which still divides Romanians today and set in motion the rise to power of the Legionary State and then of Marechal Antonescu, as well as our Axis membership, specifically to first gain back Bessarabia (though we went further and took Odessa as well, Antonescu apologists arguing that he intended to use the Transnistria Governorate, as it was called and maintained separate administratively from the indivisible Romania which had recovered Bessarabia, to negotiate with the Nazis for the return of Northern Transylvania, which had been taken by Hungary). In the end, we lost Bessarabia, but regained Northern Transylvania, by grace of Stalin, after the Antonescu regime was deposed and we conveniently turned to the side of the Allies.

    Romania became a reluctant member of the Warsaw Pact and eventually started pursuing independent policies. Bessarabia was divided between the Moldovan SSR, which included Transnistria (the rump Tranistria that started it all and is still there today), while the Northern and Southern parts of Bessarabia went to Ukraine and are still there. The argument was strategic - the Dniester is a very good lines of defense for Romania in an eventual war against it, which was a distinct possibility. Both Budjak (S. Bessarabia) and N. Bukowina and Hertza in the North allowed for the bypass of most natural obstacles for an invading force, while these areas were the least ethnically Moldo-Romanian so the least likely to maybe rise up like Bessarabia as a whole did in during unification. This year is the 100th anniversary of the unification of Greater Romania.

    In the end, there is a bit of a grey spot - when the component republics of the Soviet Union were declaring independence left and right within their existing administrative borders (including the various poison pills, like the Ossetians half in Georgia half in Russia, or Crimea in Ukraine) , Transnistria declared its independence from the USSR before Moldova actually did. When Moldova declared its independence, the conflict started with what it considered a breakaway region from its natural territory, which had the Soviet administrative borders. It is a terrible mess because Moldova was quite dependent on energy generation capabilities which were situated by Soviet planners beyond the Dniester, as well as heavy industry, specifically designed, just like the borders, to discourage secessionist politics. In time, the dependence lessens, but the issue of traffic passing through to Ukraine and then Russia remains, as does the issue of the huge debts that the little region has accumulated (for Gazprom gas deliveries) which it weirdly maintains are the sovereign responsibilities of Moldova. As a Romanian, I am biased, but the Transnistrians, who are still plurality Romanian, but less so than other regions of Moldova, with the exception of the Gagauz Autonomous Areas (don't ask), have had decades of extra Russification, USSR nostalgia and various other forms of cultural evolution which have further separated them from Moldova. Moldova, meanwhile, has developed a growing unionist block, sometimes at odds with its pro-European block, since unionists want to be in the EU and NATO by merging with Romania, though both are anti-Russian. Moldova has switched to Latin alphabet (which Kazakhstan will soon do) and declared in its constitution that it speaks the Romanian language, not the Moldovan, which was an attempt to create a separate identity which parts of the political class want to continue, even though the greater part of the medieval Kingdom and its population is in Romania and we count its heroes and poets as our national heroes and poets.

    I doubt that Russia has any sort of irredentist designs on the region and it would be a fiscal black hole for it worse than Crimea (the Moldovan GDP/capita is six times less than Romania and 7 times than Russia) and so is far less attractive than the Baltics, though even that possibility is remote (the Russians are seemingly unwilling to attach the Ukrainian Lugansk and Donetsk breakaway regions, despite the fact that they would welcome it). But it is useful. A frozen conflict with a territory full of Russian peacekeepers (who are basically blockaded there by both Ukraine and Moldova) prevents Moldova from moving towards Europe and Romania. For our part, we couldn't care less about Transnistria, it is an even worse mafia state than Moldova and is a lot poorer than it and we can always give citizenship to Romanians there, if they want it. It is also indefensible geographically But the solution to the conflict and the prospect of Russian retreat from the area (though it had been promised and signed in past treaties) passes through a political solution for the area.

    Russia insists, like in Ukraine, that the solution involves federalization in order to safeguard the interests of the Transnistrians. This automatically means a veto of any European or Atlanticist aspirations on the part of Moldova, just like it would for Ukraine, which would mean the maintenance of Russian influence in its near abroad. It is a concern on the part of Russians which I understand and I too wish to be as far away from Russia, though they recently became our neighbor again on the Exclusive Economic Zone in the Black Sea, because of Crimea. The Russians would probably approve in a heartbeat the reunification of Romania with Moldova if it were done under a federal arrangement, since this would give their Moldovan agents (both the dwindling Russian population and the Russophone and Russophile Romanians) significant leverage. Even the irredentists in Hungary would welcome the expansion of Romania under these terms, since Szekely Land would likely negotiate to become a federal entity, rather than the three counties it is today. So there is an element of risk here, since this would severely weaken Romania in more ways than one (the other being the spread of Moldovan and Russian crime syndicates in Romania, which has been opposed in recent decades by the secret service and the more domesticated Romanian crime syndicates; one of the Romanian millionaires at the nexus of the intelligence services and organized crime was caught on tape bragging about burying mobsters from Moldova in the forest in the 1990s). But Transnistria is utterly irrelevant outside of the Great Game being played in Eastern Europe, where it is a sideshow to Ukraine and its fate will ultimately depend on that of Ukraine, just as the Moldovan elites used to take their cues from Kiev.

    Thanks for that interesting lesson in Romanian history. You did, however, understate Romania’s activity in WW2. Romania’s army didn’t stop at Odessa. It accompanied Germany’s all the way to Stalingrad. And you’ve overlooked entirely that when Romania retook Bessarabia and Northern Bukowina, it massacred the Jews with an enthusiasm worthy of the Germans.

    As it was just for Germany to lose Silesia, Pomerania and East Prussia for its crimes during the war, Romania richly deserved all its territorial losses.

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    • Replies: @BB753
    "As it was just for Germany to lose Silesia, Pomerania and East Prussia for its crimes during the war, Romania richly deserved all its territorial losses."

    "Vae victis!" Losing a war is the greatest sin of all.
    , @Peter Akuleyev
    Romania richly deserved all its territorial losses.

    To this day Romania is still sitting on its ill-gotten Hungarian lands so Romania hasn't done too badly. No one in their right mind would swap Chisinau for Timisoara or Cluj.
    , @Romanian
    I was writing a comment on Transnistria, not a Wiki article claiming to be comprehensive. And neither was I trying to make Romania look good, just explain my perspective on that particular bit of land.

    Many were killed by the state or various opposition forces in what was also a period of low intensity civil war in Romania, with Antonescu having the same relationship with the legionaries as Franco did with his fascists, though with a different denouement. It is still bitterly argued whether Antonescu did the right thing by not stopping at the Dniester and continuing onward with the German military machine, though I have no idea whether simply stopping would have been politically feasible since we could just as easily have been conquered ourselves by the Germans, who already had designs on our place in their new order as an agricultural space run by German managers and capital.

    The Transnistria Governorate was specifically the area of the German conquests that Romania had under its administration and which went far beyond the small Transnistrian SSR and reached Odessa. That Romanian and Italian soldiers ended up all the way in Stalingrad is a different matter, as allied troops of the Germans. Had the war gone differently, they would have ended up even further afield in Asia. Even after we switched sides, many Romanians remained as prisoners of war and, just like in the case of Vietnam POWs in the US, there had always been rumors and lingering suspicions that not all were released to return to the country.

    As for the Jews, Yad Vashem itself noted the differences in approach towards the Jews of Romania proper and those of Bessarabia and the conquered territories, where the Germans were also closer to hand to see to their treatment.
    http://www.yadvashem.org/yv/pdf-drupal/en/report/english/1.9_The_Role_of_Antonescu.pdf
    I can't explain what led to the differentiation on the part of Antonescu - maybe our German Jews and Adrianople Jews he saw as better, better assimilated or more loyal than the Jews in areas formerly controlled by the Russian Empire, which were also much more diverse than the rest of Romania and likely to become restive. Iasi in Romania proper has been noted as a very Jewish city, but Chernivtsi was likewise very heavily Jewish and were cities where Legionary leanings among students were frequent partly because of Jewish predominance in University life (elite competition maybe?). Certainly, Antonescu never regretted the harsh punishment meted out to guerrillas in the Transnistrian Governorate (there were bomb attacks), many of whom were Jewish, but I do not claim to know what was on his mind when he gave some to the Germans and not others. Maybe the Romanian communities were sufficiently influential with other elites to get him to relent? His bitter experiences with Carol II, whose universally reviled mistress (the same pattern as Wallis Simpson in England) was Jewish (from a family which converted to Orthodoxy), may have also influenced his opinions.

    In the end, it was for naught. All of the Romanian Jews (maybe 2,000 remaining, I have read) went to Israel during the Communist period, where they are apparently a sizable cohort. There was a recent article by a historian who presented how the Israeli government bought the release of the Romanian Jews to emigrate, just like the West German government bought the freedom of the Germans of Romania. If only the Anti-Xers knew that the solution to getting rid of some minorities was to make the country bad enough that they would leave on their own for their own nation-states.

    As for whether Country X or Y deserved anything that happened to it during a war where people were notably not asked for their opinion in matters of policy, I cannot say. Let's hope there isn't another one. Our punishment was not the loss of territories, but 50 years of Communism.
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  173. @Jack D
    Silicon Valley is also afflicted with million dollar shacks. Generally speaking this is a sign that things are going well although it is bad for young people trying to buy their 1st home.

    OTOH, you can buy rather grand homes in the city of Detroit for peanuts but no one wants to live there.

    The super charming part of Lviv is confined to the old downtown. Surrounding that, the Soviets built lots of grim looking housing projects that look like postwar government housing projects everywhere.

    Was Lviv in Ukraine one of the few old-time Central European cities not to get flattened in WWII? I guess Prague is the best known.

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    • Replies: @Peter Akuleyev
    Most of historic Galicia was surprisingly unaffected architecturally by WWII. Maybe because there wasn't enough industry to bomb and the territory changed hands so quickly. Cracow was also pretty much spared, as were other pretty towns on the Polish side like Przemysl.

    Not just Prague, pretty much all of Czechoslovakia got through the war without significant damage. The Czech Republic is full of little architectural gems that aren’t heavily touristed.
    , @Mr. Anon

    Was Lviv in Ukraine one of the few old-time Central European cities not to get flattened in WWII? I guess Prague is the best known.
     
    Poznan (now in Poland) survived the war untouched. I don't believe that Vienna was damaged too badly, either, was it? Krakow too, I think.
    , @JackOH
    " . . . old-time Central European cities not to get flattened . . .".

    Speaking of not flattening cities, Steve, have you given any thought to a speculative piece on how America might be a different place had there been a negotiated settlement of WWII? I think the German general von Manstein very briefly mentions the idea in his memoir. Ian Kershaw likewise says something about the British considering a negotiated peace, very briefly and without effect, of course. Can't recall any details.

    My pet theory, which I think I've noted here a few times, is that the incendiary end of Hitler and the Reich has indirectly enabled a whole lot of noxious domestic policies so that any reasoned opposition to them is vulnerable to the "just like Hitler" flip-off. A negotiated settlement with Hitler, as improbable as that sounds, would, I think, have given America's Left a whole lot less rhetorical space to work their mojo.

    America's libertarians, especially, I think have fretted that America's invasions are used to re-order domestic policies and political constituencies. "Patriotism is the last refuge . . .".

    Anyway, if you have any thoughts on how an early end to WWII, say in 1940 or 1941, might have altered America's domestic politics, I'd like to hear them.

    , @Dmitry
    Chernovtsy was not damaged (except in terms of its human resources).
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  174. Mr. Anon says:
    @dr kill
    No, I think that was some other shithead at the NR.

    No, I think that was some other shithead at the NR.

    I believe a couple of NR shitheads did indeed write that too. But so did Stephens:

    Only Mass Deportation Can Save America

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  175. @Steve Sailer
    Was Lviv in Ukraine one of the few old-time Central European cities not to get flattened in WWII? I guess Prague is the best known.

    Most of historic Galicia was surprisingly unaffected architecturally by WWII. Maybe because there wasn’t enough industry to bomb and the territory changed hands so quickly. Cracow was also pretty much spared, as were other pretty towns on the Polish side like Przemysl.

    Not just Prague, pretty much all of Czechoslovakia got through the war without significant damage. The Czech Republic is full of little architectural gems that aren’t heavily touristed.

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    • Replies: @Jack D
    I think there was more damage in WWI. My mother's house was burnt by the Russians in WWI when they invaded Galicia. But it came thru WWII intact and is the town library today. The family grain mill made it too and wasn't abandoned until the '70s. The Germans burned the synagogue and there is only a mound of dirt where it stood (no plaque or anything) and after the war the Ukrainians (the only people left - the Jews were gone and the Poles were gone) used all the gravestones from the Jewish cemetery to pave the cow barn at the kolkhoz, but other than that the place looked pretty much the way it did in 1939. Nothing built, nothing changed. The Soviets, to their credit, did put in electricity. In the mill I saw an old poster glued to the wall of a cartoon character getting zapped and the caption was something like "in case of electrical problems please call a licensed electrician".
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  176. Mr. Anon says:
    @Steve Sailer
    Was Lviv in Ukraine one of the few old-time Central European cities not to get flattened in WWII? I guess Prague is the best known.

    Was Lviv in Ukraine one of the few old-time Central European cities not to get flattened in WWII? I guess Prague is the best known.

    Poznan (now in Poland) survived the war untouched. I don’t believe that Vienna was damaged too badly, either, was it? Krakow too, I think.

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    • Replies: @Peter Akuleyev
    I don’t believe that Vienna was damaged too badly, either, was it?

    Vienna got pretty trashed at the very end of the war when the Russians fought their way in. The Austrians did a nice job fixing it back up later, but if you watch "The Third Man" you can see how damaged the city still was in the late 1940s.

    Budapest seems to have survived largely unscathed as well.
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  177. JackOH says:
    @Steve Sailer
    Was Lviv in Ukraine one of the few old-time Central European cities not to get flattened in WWII? I guess Prague is the best known.

    ” . . . old-time Central European cities not to get flattened . . .”.

    Speaking of not flattening cities, Steve, have you given any thought to a speculative piece on how America might be a different place had there been a negotiated settlement of WWII? I think the German general von Manstein very briefly mentions the idea in his memoir. Ian Kershaw likewise says something about the British considering a negotiated peace, very briefly and without effect, of course. Can’t recall any details.

    My pet theory, which I think I’ve noted here a few times, is that the incendiary end of Hitler and the Reich has indirectly enabled a whole lot of noxious domestic policies so that any reasoned opposition to them is vulnerable to the “just like Hitler” flip-off. A negotiated settlement with Hitler, as improbable as that sounds, would, I think, have given America’s Left a whole lot less rhetorical space to work their mojo.

    America’s libertarians, especially, I think have fretted that America’s invasions are used to re-order domestic policies and political constituencies. “Patriotism is the last refuge . . .”.

    Anyway, if you have any thoughts on how an early end to WWII, say in 1940 or 1941, might have altered America’s domestic politics, I’d like to hear them.

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  178. BB753 says:
    @International Jew
    Thanks for that interesting lesson in Romanian history. You did, however, understate Romania's activity in WW2. Romania's army didn't stop at Odessa. It accompanied Germany's all the way to Stalingrad. And you've overlooked entirely that when Romania retook Bessarabia and Northern Bukowina, it massacred the Jews with an enthusiasm worthy of the Germans.

    As it was just for Germany to lose Silesia, Pomerania and East Prussia for its crimes during the war, Romania richly deserved all its territorial losses.

    “As it was just for Germany to lose Silesia, Pomerania and East Prussia for its crimes during the war, Romania richly deserved all its territorial losses.”

    “Vae victis!” Losing a war is the greatest sin of all.

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  179. @Steve Sailer
    Italian village life is more aesthetically pleasing than village life in much of the world.

    Italian village life is more aesthetically pleasing than village life in much of the world.

    Italian village life anywhere south of Naples was pretty horrible, and not much better than living in Albania or Morocco (actually, in the 19th century Morocco might have been nicer). I guess no one reads Christ stopped at Eboli anymore.

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  180. @Mr. Anon

    Was Lviv in Ukraine one of the few old-time Central European cities not to get flattened in WWII? I guess Prague is the best known.
     
    Poznan (now in Poland) survived the war untouched. I don't believe that Vienna was damaged too badly, either, was it? Krakow too, I think.

    I don’t believe that Vienna was damaged too badly, either, was it?

    Vienna got pretty trashed at the very end of the war when the Russians fought their way in. The Austrians did a nice job fixing it back up later, but if you watch “The Third Man” you can see how damaged the city still was in the late 1940s.

    Budapest seems to have survived largely unscathed as well.

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    • Replies: @Mr. Anon

    Vienna got pretty trashed at the very end of the war when the Russians fought their way in. The Austrians did a nice job fixing it back up later, but if you watch “The Third Man” you can see how damaged the city still was in the late 1940s.
     
    I don't remember that much wreckage and rubble in the movie, but it's been awhile since I've seen it. I have never been to Vienna. The Germans and Poles did a bang-up job restoring their old cities after the war. Warsaw was mostly rubble at the conclusion of the war, but even the commies fixed up the old-town to restore it's pre-war look. Munich, Cologne, Wroclaw, Hamburg were all damaged quite badly, but you'd hardly know it to look at them today.
    , @3g4me
    @180 Peter Akuleyev: "Vienna got pretty trashed at the very end of the war when the Russians fought their way in. The Austrians did a nice job fixing it back up later, but if you watch “The Third Man” you can see how damaged the city still was in the late 1940s.

    Budapest seems to have survived largely unscathed as well."

    Vienna was extensively rebuilt but remains (or did when I last saw it in 1990) a beautiful city. Prague is exquisite, Pilsen is nice, Budapest is lovely. St. Petersburg, which was in ruins after WWII, was also extensively and fairly well rebuilt - lovely place that I preferred to Venice (Venice of the North after all). My greatest regret is that I never got to travel through Poland - although one of my son's good friends is in school there for a few years (Polish born prior to family coming to Texas) so that might still be an option in the future. I'm spoiled from my years overseas and don't want to visit anywhere I don't have a local friend to show me what it's really like.
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  181. @International Jew
    Thanks for that interesting lesson in Romanian history. You did, however, understate Romania's activity in WW2. Romania's army didn't stop at Odessa. It accompanied Germany's all the way to Stalingrad. And you've overlooked entirely that when Romania retook Bessarabia and Northern Bukowina, it massacred the Jews with an enthusiasm worthy of the Germans.

    As it was just for Germany to lose Silesia, Pomerania and East Prussia for its crimes during the war, Romania richly deserved all its territorial losses.

    Romania richly deserved all its territorial losses.

    To this day Romania is still sitting on its ill-gotten Hungarian lands so Romania hasn’t done too badly. No one in their right mind would swap Chisinau for Timisoara or Cluj.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Romanian
    We wanted it, we conquered it, the zeitgeist was on our side. And we have the Serbs, Croatians, Slovenes, Slovaks, Ukrainians to back us up on this one. Could have been worse - we could have fulfilled the promise of the song "from the Dniester to the Tisza". I am not gonna get into an argument about who has the right to it when we have all been sitting on it for over 1000 years (actually, most of the population in the SE Europeans region is literally indigenous for thousands of years, regardless of current language, ethnicity or myths) and the Germans 700 of those as well (hell, the Gypsies have been for at least 800), but the implacable logic of the age and the desire for one's own cultural supremacist state led to a clash in which, through skill and lots of luck, we ended up with the prize. Though we would have taken Cluj even if it had been a pigsty and we would have taken Chisinau as well, for all the troubles it would bring (though it is certainly not an ugly and iredeemable city, just poorer and nothing some prosperity would not fix). Maybe our project succeeded in the short term and hit snags in the long-term because of the lack of the soul of an accountant to take the measure of things by gross value. Our passion has been for the land, not the bricks on it and certainly our Communists did not know to value the bricks, as Bucharest itself sadly shows.

    You never know what the future will bring, however, and whether there will be, in some form or another, a confrontation for that space. Certainly, the Hungarian diaspora and intelligentsia has been doing a much better job than we have of promoting their own mood affiliation among Westerners, and the state runs very good cultural policies relating to translations of the works of their historians, the maintenance of Hungarian language and culture in surrounding regions and so on. The modern, state-run assimilation and absimilation game has been run in the region since the first half of the 19th century, when, for instance, the first Magyarization policies were implemented to create an effective homogeneous state. It is what it is.

    There is an apocryphal story which states that a Russian ambassador asked one of our diplomats in the early 1990s why we are joining NATO, and he was told that one of the reasons (not the most important, but still) was that Hungary was joining and we would end up in a war if we were on opposite military-political blocks. Certainly, one of the first things on the minds of Romanian generals during the 1989 revolution was to mobilize the Western armed forces against any sort of opportunistic foray.
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  182. @Anonymous
    https://twitter.com/ishapiro/status/952033410993836033

    I like this guy!

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  183. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @3g4me
    @5 Anonymous: NYT Pick Comment "My grandparents and great grandparents came from Naples, Italy around 1900 when that “hole” was said to produce dirty, sneaky, criminally inclined immigrants. They were, to use the racist parlance of the day, “greaseballs.”

    My husband's four maternal great-grandparents immigrated from Campania in the mid 1880s. While they settled in New Jersey, numerous relatives and friends from one particular commune landed elsewhere around the country (the son of one such immigrant family essentially ran away from home the day he turned 18 and went to the Klondike with the gold rush; he died in Alaska in the mid 1960s). After extensively tracing literally thousands of such immigrants and reading hundreds of newspaper articles from about 1895 onwards, my overall impression is that the Italians were the Mexicans of their day.

    They procreated extensively, were often heedless of their offsprings' antics (running away and hiding in strangers' barns, riding the trains, shoplifting, starting deadly fires in their tenements), were renowned for uncontrolled grudges and passions (lots of reports of knife fights and feuding in the Italian quarter) and assimilated only gradually over the years as forced by law, custom, and/or via intermarriage. The vast majority were not even small craftsmen (my husband's one shoemaker great-grandfather was an exception) but manual laborers - hod carriers, tunnel diggers, road construction, etc. Many of them traveled back and forth between the U.S. and Italy repeatedly (visit a cousin in NY to work for a few years and go home, then stay with a brother-in-law in Chicago for a few years and go home, etc.).

    They did not come for "freedom" and "democracy." They came for purely economic reasons (the wife of one distant relative was interviewed by the Ellis Island Project; she stated quite frankly that her father much preferred working set hours in the factory to struggling on a small, remote, hilltop farm and her mother never wanted to leave Italy). I've documented a number of immigrants who became labor agitators, others who became explicitly ethnic city politicians, etc. While the vast majority didn't seem to do explicit harm to America, neither did they bestow awesome benefits on their new country. By the 1940s they were the urban equivalent of dated farm equipment.

    While they were never considered non-White, neither were they considered "Americans." Some of their children and most of their grandchildren were, as they intermarried , moved away from their ethnic enclaves, became educated professionals, etc. They (and all the other post 1880 immigrants) certainly changed America at least as much as it changed them. "Assimilation," or what I'd more accurately term semi-nationality by adoption, is a two way street, and many of the earlier Americans were legitimately dubious at the invasion and eventual dominance of their neighborhoods and towns by thousands of foreigners from all corners of the globe. The only saving grace is that the vast majority were White, European Christians, with just enough of a religious and racial and cultural component in common to very, very gradually turn peasants into hyphenated Americans.

    As demonstrated by that odious NYT comment, many of them remain hyphenated Americans to this day, idolizing their not-particularly exceptional ancestors as all exclusively hard working, honest, and sober people (they weren't). They retain aggrieved that they were rightfully resented for taking over and remaking parts of America more in their own image. They expect eternal gratitude for their unexceptional and miniscule part of the American experience (muh grandfather/uncles/cousins fought the evil notsees in WWII!).

    America, on the whole, didn't truly "need" them and would have done fine without them. Most of them should have been denied entry. The rest need to shut up (unless to express gratitude for being allowed in) and work on learning real history as opposed to the sainted immigrant narrative, and ponder what it really means to be an "American" - with NO HYPHEN - and then devote their lives to becoming the best damn facsimile they can manage. Otherwise, they need to go back.

    Yup, Italians turned Lyndhurst, NJ from suburban paradise on earth to the hellhole it is today.

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  184. Dmitry says:
    @Steve Sailer
    Was Lviv in Ukraine one of the few old-time Central European cities not to get flattened in WWII? I guess Prague is the best known.

    Chernovtsy was not damaged (except in terms of its human resources).

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  185. Jack D says:
    @Peter Akuleyev
    Most of historic Galicia was surprisingly unaffected architecturally by WWII. Maybe because there wasn't enough industry to bomb and the territory changed hands so quickly. Cracow was also pretty much spared, as were other pretty towns on the Polish side like Przemysl.

    Not just Prague, pretty much all of Czechoslovakia got through the war without significant damage. The Czech Republic is full of little architectural gems that aren’t heavily touristed.

    I think there was more damage in WWI. My mother’s house was burnt by the Russians in WWI when they invaded Galicia. But it came thru WWII intact and is the town library today. The family grain mill made it too and wasn’t abandoned until the ’70s. The Germans burned the synagogue and there is only a mound of dirt where it stood (no plaque or anything) and after the war the Ukrainians (the only people left – the Jews were gone and the Poles were gone) used all the gravestones from the Jewish cemetery to pave the cow barn at the kolkhoz, but other than that the place looked pretty much the way it did in 1939. Nothing built, nothing changed. The Soviets, to their credit, did put in electricity. In the mill I saw an old poster glued to the wall of a cartoon character getting zapped and the caption was something like “in case of electrical problems please call a licensed electrician”.

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  186. Dmitry says:
    @Steve Sailer
    Italian village life is more aesthetically pleasing than village life in much of the world.

    But such matters may hardly have occurred to the majority of local people of the time. Modern tourist views and the historical local view, can be very different things.

    Beautiful aesthetics were usually a lot lower down the list of priorities for locals in those countries and times, as often they are still in our time. (Even if Italy in 21st century has the fortune of being the country in the world where an aesthetic education has penetrated most deeply into the population).

    You only have to read about how happy people were in the 1950s to move from quaint and much more beautiful old buildings, to ugly modern housing blocks.

    People would not give a damn for aesthetic or cultural considerations in demolishing some old village square, if it gave them the chance (as was possible with for example the Khrushchev housing projects) to get their own bathroom, .

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  187. Dmitry says:

    Beautiful aesthetics were usually a lot lower down the list of priorities for locals in those countries and times, as often they are still in our time.

    Correction to that comment – A lot lower down the list of priorities for local peasants and workers (the majority of the population). Obviously the local bourgeoisie understood its value – and were already marketing their country for it. But then they were also building modern housing for themselves.

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  188. Romanian says: • Website
    @International Jew
    Thanks for that interesting lesson in Romanian history. You did, however, understate Romania's activity in WW2. Romania's army didn't stop at Odessa. It accompanied Germany's all the way to Stalingrad. And you've overlooked entirely that when Romania retook Bessarabia and Northern Bukowina, it massacred the Jews with an enthusiasm worthy of the Germans.

    As it was just for Germany to lose Silesia, Pomerania and East Prussia for its crimes during the war, Romania richly deserved all its territorial losses.

    I was writing a comment on Transnistria, not a Wiki article claiming to be comprehensive. And neither was I trying to make Romania look good, just explain my perspective on that particular bit of land.

    [MORE]

    Many were killed by the state or various opposition forces in what was also a period of low intensity civil war in Romania, with Antonescu having the same relationship with the legionaries as Franco did with his fascists, though with a different denouement. It is still bitterly argued whether Antonescu did the right thing by not stopping at the Dniester and continuing onward with the German military machine, though I have no idea whether simply stopping would have been politically feasible since we could just as easily have been conquered ourselves by the Germans, who already had designs on our place in their new order as an agricultural space run by German managers and capital.

    The Transnistria Governorate was specifically the area of the German conquests that Romania had under its administration and which went far beyond the small Transnistrian SSR and reached Odessa. That Romanian and Italian soldiers ended up all the way in Stalingrad is a different matter, as allied troops of the Germans. Had the war gone differently, they would have ended up even further afield in Asia. Even after we switched sides, many Romanians remained as prisoners of war and, just like in the case of Vietnam POWs in the US, there had always been rumors and lingering suspicions that not all were released to return to the country.

    As for the Jews, Yad Vashem itself noted the differences in approach towards the Jews of Romania proper and those of Bessarabia and the conquered territories, where the Germans were also closer to hand to see to their treatment.

    http://www.yadvashem.org/yv/pdf-drupal/en/report/english/1.9_The_Role_of_Antonescu.pdf

    I can’t explain what led to the differentiation on the part of Antonescu – maybe our German Jews and Adrianople Jews he saw as better, better assimilated or more loyal than the Jews in areas formerly controlled by the Russian Empire, which were also much more diverse than the rest of Romania and likely to become restive. Iasi in Romania proper has been noted as a very Jewish city, but Chernivtsi was likewise very heavily Jewish and were cities where Legionary leanings among students were frequent partly because of Jewish predominance in University life (elite competition maybe?). Certainly, Antonescu never regretted the harsh punishment meted out to guerrillas in the Transnistrian Governorate (there were bomb attacks), many of whom were Jewish, but I do not claim to know what was on his mind when he gave some to the Germans and not others. Maybe the Romanian communities were sufficiently influential with other elites to get him to relent? His bitter experiences with Carol II, whose universally reviled mistress (the same pattern as Wallis Simpson in England) was Jewish (from a family which converted to Orthodoxy), may have also influenced his opinions.

    In the end, it was for naught. All of the Romanian Jews (maybe 2,000 remaining, I have read) went to Israel during the Communist period, where they are apparently a sizable cohort. There was a recent article by a historian who presented how the Israeli government bought the release of the Romanian Jews to emigrate, just like the West German government bought the freedom of the Germans of Romania. If only the Anti-Xers knew that the solution to getting rid of some minorities was to make the country bad enough that they would leave on their own for their own nation-states.

    As for whether Country X or Y deserved anything that happened to it during a war where people were notably not asked for their opinion in matters of policy, I cannot say. Let’s hope there isn’t another one. Our punishment was not the loss of territories, but 50 years of Communism.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Dmitry

    In the end, it was for naught. All of the Romanian Jews (maybe 2,000 remaining, I have read) went to Israel during the Communist period, where they are apparently a sizable cohort.
     
    There's some famous ones like Michaela Bercu. But because they came in the 1970s, the Israelis bullied immigrants of this time into assimilating, so they quickly try to pretend to lose their culture.

    Moldovans are probably more open in Israel. Around half only immigrated to Israel in the 1990s and by that time Israeli had mostly given up trying to bully immigrants to assimilate. A lot of them still hang their carpet on the wall of their apartments. and there is sometimes culture represented at events.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_8_77bSjtk

    , @Romanian

    All of the Romanian Jews (maybe 2,000 remaining, I have read)
     
    This should read "of which 2,000 are now left in Romania"
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  189. Romanian says: • Website
    @Peter Akuleyev
    Romania richly deserved all its territorial losses.

    To this day Romania is still sitting on its ill-gotten Hungarian lands so Romania hasn't done too badly. No one in their right mind would swap Chisinau for Timisoara or Cluj.

    We wanted it, we conquered it, the zeitgeist was on our side. And we have the Serbs, Croatians, Slovenes, Slovaks, Ukrainians to back us up on this one. Could have been worse – we could have fulfilled the promise of the song “from the Dniester to the Tisza”. I am not gonna get into an argument about who has the right to it when we have all been sitting on it for over 1000 years (actually, most of the population in the SE Europeans region is literally indigenous for thousands of years, regardless of current language, ethnicity or myths) and the Germans 700 of those as well (hell, the Gypsies have been for at least 800), but the implacable logic of the age and the desire for one’s own cultural supremacist state led to a clash in which, through skill and lots of luck, we ended up with the prize. Though we would have taken Cluj even if it had been a pigsty and we would have taken Chisinau as well, for all the troubles it would bring (though it is certainly not an ugly and iredeemable city, just poorer and nothing some prosperity would not fix). Maybe our project succeeded in the short term and hit snags in the long-term because of the lack of the soul of an accountant to take the measure of things by gross value. Our passion has been for the land, not the bricks on it and certainly our Communists did not know to value the bricks, as Bucharest itself sadly shows.

    You never know what the future will bring, however, and whether there will be, in some form or another, a confrontation for that space. Certainly, the Hungarian diaspora and intelligentsia has been doing a much better job than we have of promoting their own mood affiliation among Westerners, and the state runs very good cultural policies relating to translations of the works of their historians, the maintenance of Hungarian language and culture in surrounding regions and so on. The modern, state-run assimilation and absimilation game has been run in the region since the first half of the 19th century, when, for instance, the first Magyarization policies were implemented to create an effective homogeneous state. It is what it is.

    There is an apocryphal story which states that a Russian ambassador asked one of our diplomats in the early 1990s why we are joining NATO, and he was told that one of the reasons (not the most important, but still) was that Hungary was joining and we would end up in a war if we were on opposite military-political blocks. Certainly, one of the first things on the minds of Romanian generals during the 1989 revolution was to mobilize the Western armed forces against any sort of opportunistic foray.

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  190. Mr. Anon says:
    @Peter Akuleyev
    I don’t believe that Vienna was damaged too badly, either, was it?

    Vienna got pretty trashed at the very end of the war when the Russians fought their way in. The Austrians did a nice job fixing it back up later, but if you watch "The Third Man" you can see how damaged the city still was in the late 1940s.

    Budapest seems to have survived largely unscathed as well.

    Vienna got pretty trashed at the very end of the war when the Russians fought their way in. The Austrians did a nice job fixing it back up later, but if you watch “The Third Man” you can see how damaged the city still was in the late 1940s.

    I don’t remember that much wreckage and rubble in the movie, but it’s been awhile since I’ve seen it. I have never been to Vienna. The Germans and Poles did a bang-up job restoring their old cities after the war. Warsaw was mostly rubble at the conclusion of the war, but even the commies fixed up the old-town to restore it’s pre-war look. Munich, Cologne, Wroclaw, Hamburg were all damaged quite badly, but you’d hardly know it to look at them today.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jack D
    You can tell the difference between Warsaw where they reconstructed the old city from photographs and say Cracow or Lviv which are still the real thing. The most interesting buildings in Warsaw were not the Disneylike reconstructions nor the ugly Soviet structures but a few buildings that were not totally destroyed and were fixed up after the war where you can still see the pockmarks from the bullet hits on them. And the reconstructed area in Warsaw is pretty small. They made no attempt to rebuild the ghetto to its pre-war appearance and that area is occupied by post-war Soviet style housing projects.
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  191. @Reg Cæsar

    I read Emil and the Detectives as a child. In English
     
    So did I. It was the weirdest thing I read as a child.

    Disney made a movie of it. Another German-derived hit of theirs was The Parent Trap, which is about as square and straightforward as you can get.

    Those two extremes seem to dominate German culture, or at least that segment of it which makes it over here.

    Both based on books by Erich Kastner. Try his “35th of May”: it’s in the same tradition as “Phantom Tollbooth” and the “Alice” books.

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  192. Dmitry says:
    @Romanian
    I was writing a comment on Transnistria, not a Wiki article claiming to be comprehensive. And neither was I trying to make Romania look good, just explain my perspective on that particular bit of land.

    Many were killed by the state or various opposition forces in what was also a period of low intensity civil war in Romania, with Antonescu having the same relationship with the legionaries as Franco did with his fascists, though with a different denouement. It is still bitterly argued whether Antonescu did the right thing by not stopping at the Dniester and continuing onward with the German military machine, though I have no idea whether simply stopping would have been politically feasible since we could just as easily have been conquered ourselves by the Germans, who already had designs on our place in their new order as an agricultural space run by German managers and capital.

    The Transnistria Governorate was specifically the area of the German conquests that Romania had under its administration and which went far beyond the small Transnistrian SSR and reached Odessa. That Romanian and Italian soldiers ended up all the way in Stalingrad is a different matter, as allied troops of the Germans. Had the war gone differently, they would have ended up even further afield in Asia. Even after we switched sides, many Romanians remained as prisoners of war and, just like in the case of Vietnam POWs in the US, there had always been rumors and lingering suspicions that not all were released to return to the country.

    As for the Jews, Yad Vashem itself noted the differences in approach towards the Jews of Romania proper and those of Bessarabia and the conquered territories, where the Germans were also closer to hand to see to their treatment.
    http://www.yadvashem.org/yv/pdf-drupal/en/report/english/1.9_The_Role_of_Antonescu.pdf
    I can't explain what led to the differentiation on the part of Antonescu - maybe our German Jews and Adrianople Jews he saw as better, better assimilated or more loyal than the Jews in areas formerly controlled by the Russian Empire, which were also much more diverse than the rest of Romania and likely to become restive. Iasi in Romania proper has been noted as a very Jewish city, but Chernivtsi was likewise very heavily Jewish and were cities where Legionary leanings among students were frequent partly because of Jewish predominance in University life (elite competition maybe?). Certainly, Antonescu never regretted the harsh punishment meted out to guerrillas in the Transnistrian Governorate (there were bomb attacks), many of whom were Jewish, but I do not claim to know what was on his mind when he gave some to the Germans and not others. Maybe the Romanian communities were sufficiently influential with other elites to get him to relent? His bitter experiences with Carol II, whose universally reviled mistress (the same pattern as Wallis Simpson in England) was Jewish (from a family which converted to Orthodoxy), may have also influenced his opinions.

    In the end, it was for naught. All of the Romanian Jews (maybe 2,000 remaining, I have read) went to Israel during the Communist period, where they are apparently a sizable cohort. There was a recent article by a historian who presented how the Israeli government bought the release of the Romanian Jews to emigrate, just like the West German government bought the freedom of the Germans of Romania. If only the Anti-Xers knew that the solution to getting rid of some minorities was to make the country bad enough that they would leave on their own for their own nation-states.

    As for whether Country X or Y deserved anything that happened to it during a war where people were notably not asked for their opinion in matters of policy, I cannot say. Let's hope there isn't another one. Our punishment was not the loss of territories, but 50 years of Communism.

    In the end, it was for naught. All of the Romanian Jews (maybe 2,000 remaining, I have read) went to Israel during the Communist period, where they are apparently a sizable cohort.

    There’s some famous ones like Michaela Bercu. But because they came in the 1970s, the Israelis bullied immigrants of this time into assimilating, so they quickly try to pretend to lose their culture.

    Moldovans are probably more open in Israel. Around half only immigrated to Israel in the 1990s and by that time Israeli had mostly given up trying to bully immigrants to assimilate. A lot of them still hang their carpet on the wall of their apartments. and there is sometimes culture represented at events.

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    • Replies: @Romanian
    I maybe misspoke. There are 2000 Jews now left in Romania, hundreds of thousands went to Israel.

    According to this, 400k Romanian Jews live in Israel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanian_Jews_in_Israel

    Avigdor Lieberman is from Moldova, no?
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  193. J.Ross says: • Website
    @John Derbyshire

    “Winter Is Coming”

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  194. Romanian says: • Website
    @Dmitry

    In the end, it was for naught. All of the Romanian Jews (maybe 2,000 remaining, I have read) went to Israel during the Communist period, where they are apparently a sizable cohort.
     
    There's some famous ones like Michaela Bercu. But because they came in the 1970s, the Israelis bullied immigrants of this time into assimilating, so they quickly try to pretend to lose their culture.

    Moldovans are probably more open in Israel. Around half only immigrated to Israel in the 1990s and by that time Israeli had mostly given up trying to bully immigrants to assimilate. A lot of them still hang their carpet on the wall of their apartments. and there is sometimes culture represented at events.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_8_77bSjtk

    I maybe misspoke. There are 2000 Jews now left in Romania, hundreds of thousands went to Israel.

    According to this, 400k Romanian Jews live in Israel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanian_Jews_in_Israel

    Avigdor Lieberman is from Moldova, no?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Dmitry
    Yes Avigdor Lieberman is an immigrant from Moldova (although his parents had been deported for many years to Irkutsk before he was born).

    Not to speak Romanian/Moldovan though:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5OVQKfWsbc


    --


    Israel has probably the many of the most famous immigrants from Moldova:
    http://www.noi.md/ru/news_id/79840

    , @Dmitry
    Yes searching on google - a lot of famous Romanian-speakers in Israel. Although it's not a visible community because they rapidly assimilated, unlike immigrants from other countries that came in 1990s.

    Some famous Romanian speaking women soldiers who were killed - Dorit Shaked
    http://www.izkor.gov.il/HalalKorot.aspx?id=92597
    Keren Tendlar
    https://worldisraelnews.com/watch-israel-mourns-female-helicopter-mechanic-killed-by-rocket/

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  195. Romanian says: • Website
    @Romanian
    I was writing a comment on Transnistria, not a Wiki article claiming to be comprehensive. And neither was I trying to make Romania look good, just explain my perspective on that particular bit of land.

    Many were killed by the state or various opposition forces in what was also a period of low intensity civil war in Romania, with Antonescu having the same relationship with the legionaries as Franco did with his fascists, though with a different denouement. It is still bitterly argued whether Antonescu did the right thing by not stopping at the Dniester and continuing onward with the German military machine, though I have no idea whether simply stopping would have been politically feasible since we could just as easily have been conquered ourselves by the Germans, who already had designs on our place in their new order as an agricultural space run by German managers and capital.

    The Transnistria Governorate was specifically the area of the German conquests that Romania had under its administration and which went far beyond the small Transnistrian SSR and reached Odessa. That Romanian and Italian soldiers ended up all the way in Stalingrad is a different matter, as allied troops of the Germans. Had the war gone differently, they would have ended up even further afield in Asia. Even after we switched sides, many Romanians remained as prisoners of war and, just like in the case of Vietnam POWs in the US, there had always been rumors and lingering suspicions that not all were released to return to the country.

    As for the Jews, Yad Vashem itself noted the differences in approach towards the Jews of Romania proper and those of Bessarabia and the conquered territories, where the Germans were also closer to hand to see to their treatment.
    http://www.yadvashem.org/yv/pdf-drupal/en/report/english/1.9_The_Role_of_Antonescu.pdf
    I can't explain what led to the differentiation on the part of Antonescu - maybe our German Jews and Adrianople Jews he saw as better, better assimilated or more loyal than the Jews in areas formerly controlled by the Russian Empire, which were also much more diverse than the rest of Romania and likely to become restive. Iasi in Romania proper has been noted as a very Jewish city, but Chernivtsi was likewise very heavily Jewish and were cities where Legionary leanings among students were frequent partly because of Jewish predominance in University life (elite competition maybe?). Certainly, Antonescu never regretted the harsh punishment meted out to guerrillas in the Transnistrian Governorate (there were bomb attacks), many of whom were Jewish, but I do not claim to know what was on his mind when he gave some to the Germans and not others. Maybe the Romanian communities were sufficiently influential with other elites to get him to relent? His bitter experiences with Carol II, whose universally reviled mistress (the same pattern as Wallis Simpson in England) was Jewish (from a family which converted to Orthodoxy), may have also influenced his opinions.

    In the end, it was for naught. All of the Romanian Jews (maybe 2,000 remaining, I have read) went to Israel during the Communist period, where they are apparently a sizable cohort. There was a recent article by a historian who presented how the Israeli government bought the release of the Romanian Jews to emigrate, just like the West German government bought the freedom of the Germans of Romania. If only the Anti-Xers knew that the solution to getting rid of some minorities was to make the country bad enough that they would leave on their own for their own nation-states.

    As for whether Country X or Y deserved anything that happened to it during a war where people were notably not asked for their opinion in matters of policy, I cannot say. Let's hope there isn't another one. Our punishment was not the loss of territories, but 50 years of Communism.

    All of the Romanian Jews (maybe 2,000 remaining, I have read)

    This should read “of which 2,000 are now left in Romania”

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  196. Hibernian says:
    @3g4me
    @134 Hibernian: "I believe Irish immigrants came for religious and political freedom as well as economic reasons."

    Sigh. It's really not all about you or your specific or ethnic ancestors. Undoubtedly there were some arrivals due to political repression, but the vast majority of all immigrants to America from 1880 on were economic. There's nothing particularly evil about that, but it would be nice for some honesty instead of "muh sacred immigrant ancestors."

    Another set of my husband's great-grandparents (on the paternal side) were Irish immigrants, so I take license to bash them equally. Look, I'm not condemning anyone as evil, but neither were they unique. As I said, the great wave of immigrants changed America dramatically - and in many negative ways (check out the Jewish riots in NY 1906/1907 against Christmas songs and observances in school). I'd argue part of the reason the FDR was able to get away with multiple terms in office and many of his blatantly socialist programs was because so many of the cities were filled with immigrant voters and their children, and as I also said, even partial "assimilation" takes a whole lotta time and pressure and intermarriage. I'm talking multiple generations here (minimum 4).

    Again, their sole saving grace was that they were White European Christians. There was something to work with there, and, after a few generations, an only moderate visual distinction among most (on the Italian side, in my husband's immediate ancestors alone, there were Italian-Irish, Italian-Czech, and Italian-German marriages). The post 1965 immigrants and their descendants are alien - racially, culturally, and religiously. They have even less of an understanding of English common law and social practices than the hyphenated European Americans did and do. Again, a tiny handful might be able to abide by and truly internalize "American" virtues and values, but most will not (even if they were willing and/or compelled). Consider that the American Negro has been here 400 years and only a miniscule number can live as independent, educated, responsible adults, let alone as good neighbors.

    We're no exception to the laws of God and nature or the pattern of human history.
    Diversity + proximity = war.

    “Another set of my husband’s great-grandparents (on the paternal side) were Irish immigrants, so I take license to bash them equally.”

    A co-worker of mine once called himself an equal opportunity Archie Bunker.

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  197. Jack D says:
    @Mr. Anon

    Vienna got pretty trashed at the very end of the war when the Russians fought their way in. The Austrians did a nice job fixing it back up later, but if you watch “The Third Man” you can see how damaged the city still was in the late 1940s.
     
    I don't remember that much wreckage and rubble in the movie, but it's been awhile since I've seen it. I have never been to Vienna. The Germans and Poles did a bang-up job restoring their old cities after the war. Warsaw was mostly rubble at the conclusion of the war, but even the commies fixed up the old-town to restore it's pre-war look. Munich, Cologne, Wroclaw, Hamburg were all damaged quite badly, but you'd hardly know it to look at them today.

    You can tell the difference between Warsaw where they reconstructed the old city from photographs and say Cracow or Lviv which are still the real thing. The most interesting buildings in Warsaw were not the Disneylike reconstructions nor the ugly Soviet structures but a few buildings that were not totally destroyed and were fixed up after the war where you can still see the pockmarks from the bullet hits on them. And the reconstructed area in Warsaw is pretty small. They made no attempt to rebuild the ghetto to its pre-war appearance and that area is occupied by post-war Soviet style housing projects.

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  198. 3g4me says:
    @Peter Akuleyev
    I don’t believe that Vienna was damaged too badly, either, was it?

    Vienna got pretty trashed at the very end of the war when the Russians fought their way in. The Austrians did a nice job fixing it back up later, but if you watch "The Third Man" you can see how damaged the city still was in the late 1940s.

    Budapest seems to have survived largely unscathed as well.

    @180 Peter Akuleyev: “Vienna got pretty trashed at the very end of the war when the Russians fought their way in. The Austrians did a nice job fixing it back up later, but if you watch “The Third Man” you can see how damaged the city still was in the late 1940s.

    Budapest seems to have survived largely unscathed as well.”

    Vienna was extensively rebuilt but remains (or did when I last saw it in 1990) a beautiful city. Prague is exquisite, Pilsen is nice, Budapest is lovely. St. Petersburg, which was in ruins after WWII, was also extensively and fairly well rebuilt – lovely place that I preferred to Venice (Venice of the North after all). My greatest regret is that I never got to travel through Poland – although one of my son’s good friends is in school there for a few years (Polish born prior to family coming to Texas) so that might still be an option in the future. I’m spoiled from my years overseas and don’t want to visit anywhere I don’t have a local friend to show me what it’s really like.

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  199. Dmitry says:
    @Romanian
    I maybe misspoke. There are 2000 Jews now left in Romania, hundreds of thousands went to Israel.

    According to this, 400k Romanian Jews live in Israel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanian_Jews_in_Israel

    Avigdor Lieberman is from Moldova, no?

    Yes Avigdor Lieberman is an immigrant from Moldova (although his parents had been deported for many years to Irkutsk before he was born).

    Not to speak Romanian/Moldovan though:

    Israel has probably the many of the most famous immigrants from Moldova:

    http://www.noi.md/ru/news_id/79840

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    The most hardcore Romanian unionists are people who were born in Bessarabia or whose parents left as refugees. Many entered the military or politics. The current Minister of Foreign Affairs, Teodor Melescanu (and permanent minister or secretary of something or other in many governments) is also from Bessarabia.
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  200. Dmitry says:
    @Romanian
    I maybe misspoke. There are 2000 Jews now left in Romania, hundreds of thousands went to Israel.

    According to this, 400k Romanian Jews live in Israel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanian_Jews_in_Israel

    Avigdor Lieberman is from Moldova, no?

    Yes searching on google – a lot of famous Romanian-speakers in Israel. Although it’s not a visible community because they rapidly assimilated, unlike immigrants from other countries that came in 1990s.

    Some famous Romanian speaking women soldiers who were killed – Dorit Shaked

    http://www.izkor.gov.il/HalalKorot.aspx?id=92597

    Keren Tendlar

    https://worldisraelnews.com/watch-israel-mourns-female-helicopter-mechanic-killed-by-rocket/

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  201. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @syonredux

    Let’s not mince words: Moldova is a hole. Modify with any four letters you wish.

    I mention Moldova because it’s where my paternal grandfather was born in 1901. An anti-Semitic rampage in his hometown, Kishinev, soon forced his family to leave for New York, where my great-grandfather labored as a carpenter in the Brooklyn Navy Yard for eight dollars a week. …
     
    Let's get real; I don't really care about a bunch of Blacks in Haiti. It's just that I can only view immigration through a filiopietistic lens....

    BRET STEPHENS: I mention Moldova because it’s where my paternal grandfather was born in 1901. An anti-Semitic rampage in his hometown, Kishinev, soon forced his family to leave for New York,

    Here is a more recent snapshot of the situation is Kishinev, from the 1970s.

    [Israeli Defense Minister Avigdor] Lieberman attributes his forthright personality to his youth in the large Jewish community of 1970s Kishinev, saying: “Jews were 25 percent of the population of Kishinev [during the 1970s]… We were more affluent, better educated, and we showed it… The Jews of Moldova have this no-nonsense streak.”[4]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avigdor_Lieberman

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  202. @Jack D
    Silicon Valley is also afflicted with million dollar shacks. Generally speaking this is a sign that things are going well although it is bad for young people trying to buy their 1st home.

    OTOH, you can buy rather grand homes in the city of Detroit for peanuts but no one wants to live there.

    The super charming part of Lviv is confined to the old downtown. Surrounding that, the Soviets built lots of grim looking housing projects that look like postwar government housing projects everywhere.

    ” You can buy rather grand homes in the city of Detroit for peanuts but no one wants to live there”

    Amen Bro, in Rosedale Park, Boston Edison, Indian village, and other neighborhoods you will see some of the most elaborate european style stone and brick mansions, complete with marvelous stonework, tile roofing, stained glass windows , etc.
    Plus the wonderful art-deco skyscrapers such as the Fisher building, Guardian building, Penobscot building, etc. The looby of the Fisher building is breathtaking and magical.
    I grew up in Detroit and the destruction of this former world-class metropolis breaks my heart.
    And of course we know who we can thank for this monumental tragedy : the democrat nut-cases who have been running/ruining the city for the last fifty-plus years, period.
    Recently no less than fourteen high school principles were on trial for accepting bribes, people who had huge salaries and more side “Benefits” than one can imagine, and yet they took thousands of dollars in bribes from contractors : Democrats.
    My departed mother detested the ground Coleman Young walked upon.

    Authenticjazzman “Mensa” qualified since 1973, airborne trained US Army vet, and pro jazz musician.

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  203. Romanian says: • Website
    @Dmitry
    Yes Avigdor Lieberman is an immigrant from Moldova (although his parents had been deported for many years to Irkutsk before he was born).

    Not to speak Romanian/Moldovan though:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5OVQKfWsbc


    --


    Israel has probably the many of the most famous immigrants from Moldova:
    http://www.noi.md/ru/news_id/79840

    The most hardcore Romanian unionists are people who were born in Bessarabia or whose parents left as refugees. Many entered the military or politics. The current Minister of Foreign Affairs, Teodor Melescanu (and permanent minister or secretary of something or other in many governments) is also from Bessarabia.

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