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What if Pygmies Are a Different Species? That Might be Good for the Pygmies.
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In his 1871 book The Descent of Man, Charles Darwin considered at length whether the races of man were best thought of as separate species or as subspecies, eventually deciding upon the latter, which seems reasonable.

Of course, we don’t have a foolproof definition of species. Indeed, much of the incentives for biologists and paleoanthropologists are toward a proliferation of claimed species. If you declare you’ve discovered a rare species you’ve named, say, the California bugcatcher which is a different color than the common Baja bugcatcher, you’ve got something to put on your C.V. and you can get hired by golf course developers as a consultant in dealing with the Endangered Species Act.

Similarly, paleoanthropologists long liked to declare that whatever bone they had dug up was of a heretofore unknown species of hominin.

On the other hand, it was considered extremely bad form to declare existing human groups to be kind of a different species.

Lately, however, things have gotten more complicated as it turns out that a lot of modern people have some ancestry from Neanderthals (traditionally considered a separate species) but sub-Saharan Africans don’t.

Greg Cochran points out that recent genomic data suggests that maybe there is a still surviving cousin species of us anatomically modern humans:

… using the slow rate, the split time between Pygmies and Bantu is ~300k years ago – long before any archaeological sign of behavioral modernity (however you define it) and well before the first known fossils of AMH [anatomically modern humans] (although that shouldn’t bother anyone, considering the raggedness of the fossil record).

Logically, this means that Pygmies aren’t really modern humans. Or, perhaps, they’re the most divergent of all modern humans.

Obviously, this is a fairly metaphysical question. But it could have interesting political implications for the poor Pygmies.

It has usually been assumed that it would be terrible if anybody ever noticed that some group wasn’t exactly the same species as everybody else. They’d be The Other.

But maybe in this Celebrate Diversity era, it would now be good for the Pygmies to be declared an endangered species.

As far as I can tell, Pygmies get abused something awful in the Congo. For example, from The Smithsonian in 2008:

The Pygmies’ Plight

A correspondent who chronicled their lives in central African rain forests returns a decade later and is shocked by what he finds

But nobody much cares what happens to the Pygmies because while they’re being enslaved and maltreated, they’re being enslaved and maltreated by other blacks. It’s like Black Lives Matter agitation causing the black-on-black homicide totals to jump by hundreds of incremental dead black people post-Ferguson: nice white people don’t care much about what blacks do to other blacks.

But if Pygmies could become scientifically recognized as The Other, we’d perhaps be more likely to finally care about what is being done to them.

 
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  1. In 2007, I went with a group of science teachers to some workshops led by the bigwigs at the American Museum of Natural History. The curator of vertebrate paleontology went first, talked about the biological species concept, and we talked some about how bacteria made this concept so problematic- they can exchange DNA with each other even when they’re not closely related.

    Next came Ian Tattersall, a great physical anthropologist who presented a brilliant hour-long lecture on human evolution culminating in the Lascaux caves and other Cro-Magnon artifacts. I loved teaching evolution, so I’d already seen a lot of them, but he really tied everything together in a coherent way. Then, he said, in a not hidden note of relief- “and now thanks to the Blombos caves in South Africa, we have evidence that symbolic reasoning dated from 75,000 years ago in Africa, not from the later Cro-Magnon dates in Europe.” And he showed the not-entirely impressive (particularly after the range of Cro-Magnon art) marks on ocher that were found at Blombos. And he said, by way of wrapping up, “we can be sure that no human evolution is happening now, the population is too big for any directional selection in the past many thousand years.” It was only too clear that he was emotionally invested in the idea of a global, biologically undifferentiated human species. In spite of his vast knowledge, his dispassion about results ended at the moment at which presently-living human beings split off from one another.

    More recently, it occurred to me he might have been directly responding to Cochran and Harpending.

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    • Replies: @gcochran
    Ian Tattersall doesn't know or believe in modern population genetics. When it comes to evolution, he's totally clueless. For example that bit about the population being 'too big' for adaptive evolution: that's pure nonsense.
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  2. our moral obligation is either to pump ‘em full of HGH (& “fix” those adorable li’l rascals) -
    OR to seek their diversity above all others, since they have the “most” – they will “enrich” us the most.
    all bow to them, for they are the holy grail of diversity.

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  3. What do we know about Pygmy language?

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  4. “African Atlantis” is a now discredited hypothetical civilization thought to have once existed in southern Africa, initially proposed by Leo Frobenius around 1904. Named after the mythical Atlantis, this lost civilization was conceived to be the root of African culture and social structure. Frobenius surmised that a white civilization must have existed in Africa prior to the arrival of the European colonisers, and that it was this “white residue” that enabled native Africans to exhibit traits of “military power, political leadership and… monumental architecture.” Frobenius’s theory stated that “historical contact with immigrant ‘whites’ of Mediterranean origin” was responsible for “advanced” native African culture. He stated that such a civilization must have disappeared long ago, to allow for the perceived “dilution” of their civilization to the “levels” that were encountered during the period.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_Frobenius#Theories

    What if pygmies were bred to be pygmies by the dudes they just found way the hell down in that south african cave? Like what if they bred them to be court jesters or something? Like cause if you don’t want your court jesters to overthrow you. But the question remains: Why did the pygmy breeders get up and go way down in that godforsaken south african cave for us to find them utterly dead?

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    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    We have a hieroglyphic from 4000 years ago of the pharaoh's shopping list, including one dancing dwarf from down south.
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  5. Its not just that nice white people don’t care about what blacks do to other blacks . No one cares much about what muslims do to other muslims , or even what muslims do to anyone else . Consider these 2 curious cases that the media chooses not to cover and no one can be bothered to care about :

    The plight of the Papuan people . Their homeland was invaded , occupied and colonized by Indonesia in 1963 . Genocide ensued and continues to this day . 500,000 papuans have been killed . There is a 20 year prison sentence for raising the Papuan flag . The policy of Trans Migrasi is an ethnic cleansing and settlement policy where the ruling class of Indonesia , the Javanese , are used to displace the native Papuan population . Consider too the racial element . Papuans are melanesian race , while Indonesians are Asian . Papuans are much darker and face discrimination and ridicule . Indonesians are much lighter than Papuans . Even the racially charged left, who make racism a part of everything , appeasing muslims trumps racism .

    We all know slavery was bad 150 years ago but how about now ? In the Islamic republic of Mauritania there are 600,000 people living as slaves. Of course the slaves are the darker skinned and the slave owners are arabic descent . Not a peep out of the media about this . Imagine if there were 600,000 slaves in Texas or Slovenia . It would be non stop wall to wall media attention 24/7/365 but since its slavery committed by muslims its ignored by the media and labeled an exotic cultural more that stupid white people couldn’t possibly understand , thusly they are in no position to criticize . Its completely baffling that slavery that occurred in America 150 years ago gets more media attention in 2016 than slavery thats currently happening now .

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    • Agree: Travis
    • Replies: @anon
    As long as you are not white you get a pass for behaving badly. Only whites must be punished for their sins, real or imagined, past, present and future. This is the very first law of cultural Marxism.
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  6. Nope, the Left already has this covered.

    First, POC have no agency, so anything they do isn’t as bad as if real adults do it, or, if it is bad, it’s because white people, particularly Anglo-Saxons, haven’t done enough to stop them. Samantha Power has written a helpful book about this.

    Otherwise, slavery, you see, in non-Western cultures wasn’t really slavery. It was more like being in a family. It was only Anglo-Saxon chattel slavery that truly dehumanized slaves.

    With the exception of the Jihad watch sorts, I’ve yet to see people collectively get as overtly virtue-signaled outraged over centuries of enslaved hetero or homosexual exploitation in other societies as they do about the evidently near-constant raping, stopped only occasionally for cotton cultivation and cock fights, that went on from 1619-1865 in Dixie.

    Excepting the R2Pers, who tend to be center-right or center-left, don’t expect outraged, anguished laments about slaves in other societies from the faux-cosmopolitan, provincial coalition of the margins. It would serve no rent-seeking or status-seeking purpose.

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    • Replies: @marwan

    With the exception of the Jihad watch sorts, I’ve yet to see people collectively get as overtly virtue-signaled outraged over centuries of enslaved hetero or homosexual exploitation in other societies as they do about the evidently near-constant raping, stopped only occasionally for cotton cultivation and cock fights, that went on from 1619-1865 in Dixie.
     
    Or put another way :
    The left and the media prefer to wage their homosexuality crusade against white people in Indiana who do not wish to bake cakes for gay weddings , rather than the real messy work of highlighting the fact that homosexuality carries the death penalty in most Islamic countries . Iran has executed 700 people for the crime of homosexuality over the past 30 years . But thats nothing compared to a refusal to bake a cake !
    , @vcragain
    Don't blame white folks for only caring about the slavery they committed themselves - it is the fact that THEY did it that disturbs them - they ARE trying to learn about themselves and come to terms with what happened, and for those who are Liberally-minded, that fact is shocking and it takes a while to understand how and why. This is not really yet all dealt with in Europeans and therefore caring about slavery by 'others' is too much of a stretch - in any case - isn't it about those 'others' realizing what they are doing and coming to terms with their own role in enslaving other humans. Our 'evolution' towards a greater enlightenment is happening in little steps and we can only hope it is always in a positive direction ! Certainly I care about anybody having to live as a slave - but I can only sign a pledge or contribute money towards the fix for that, that fact makes me miserable, tell me what more I can do ?
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  7. Gee Steve, I didn’t know you collected black garden gnomes.

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  8. @Pat Casey

    "African Atlantis" is a now discredited hypothetical civilization thought to have once existed in southern Africa, initially proposed by Leo Frobenius around 1904. Named after the mythical Atlantis, this lost civilization was conceived to be the root of African culture and social structure. Frobenius surmised that a white civilization must have existed in Africa prior to the arrival of the European colonisers, and that it was this "white residue" that enabled native Africans to exhibit traits of "military power, political leadership and... monumental architecture." Frobenius's theory stated that "historical contact with immigrant 'whites' of Mediterranean origin" was responsible for "advanced" native African culture. He stated that such a civilization must have disappeared long ago, to allow for the perceived "dilution" of their civilization to the "levels" that were encountered during the period.
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_Frobenius#Theories

    What if pygmies were bred to be pygmies by the dudes they just found way the hell down in that south african cave? Like what if they bred them to be court jesters or something? Like cause if you don't want your court jesters to overthrow you. But the question remains: Why did the pygmy breeders get up and go way down in that godforsaken south african cave for us to find them utterly dead?

    We have a hieroglyphic from 4000 years ago of the pharaoh’s shopping list, including one dancing dwarf from down south.

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    • Replies: @Pat Casey
    Wait, are you saying the pygmies put those dudes in that cave themselves because the pharaoh made them? Or because they were mad he made them dance?
    , @Anonymous
    Sounds rather like the ancient equivalent of yer typical American 'rap video'.
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  9. It’s like Black Lives Matter agitation

    Speaking of which, although it wasn’t BLM, cancelling the Chicago rally was a mistake, I think. It’s only going to encourage more protests and makes him look a little weak.

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    • Replies: @Stephen R. Diamond
    Why didn't he negotiate a deal with the protesters? The best deal with protesters ever. It would have been beautiful.
    , @AndrewR
    Because the cops openly stated they couldnt keep the peace and Trump didn't want mass violence at his rally.

    This isn't rocket science. Trump doesn't look weak. You look willfully ignorant.
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  10. https://mobile.twitter.com/FOX2now/status/708335123037601792

    Trump protesters in chicago stomping on the american flag. This needs to go viral!

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  11. Making concessions for the Pygmies requires that Black Africans do most of the conceding.

    Might as well try and save your favorite asteroid with the decaying orbit.

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  12. OT: Trump rally cancelled due to protests. I can’t wait to see the next round of polls, I daresay this will provide another boost. And my guess is the iSteve pageviews and comment count will also spike. Good times.

    http://www.breitbart.com/big-journalism/2016/03/11/horse-race-livewire-10/

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  13. How tall is Greg Cochran?

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  14. @anowow
    Nope, the Left already has this covered.

    First, POC have no agency, so anything they do isn't as bad as if real adults do it, or, if it is bad, it's because white people, particularly Anglo-Saxons, haven't done enough to stop them. Samantha Power has written a helpful book about this.

    Otherwise, slavery, you see, in non-Western cultures wasn't really slavery. It was more like being in a family. It was only Anglo-Saxon chattel slavery that truly dehumanized slaves.

    With the exception of the Jihad watch sorts, I've yet to see people collectively get as overtly virtue-signaled outraged over centuries of enslaved hetero or homosexual exploitation in other societies as they do about the evidently near-constant raping, stopped only occasionally for cotton cultivation and cock fights, that went on from 1619-1865 in Dixie.


    Excepting the R2Pers, who tend to be center-right or center-left, don't expect outraged, anguished laments about slaves in other societies from the faux-cosmopolitan, provincial coalition of the margins. It would serve no rent-seeking or status-seeking purpose.

    With the exception of the Jihad watch sorts, I’ve yet to see people collectively get as overtly virtue-signaled outraged over centuries of enslaved hetero or homosexual exploitation in other societies as they do about the evidently near-constant raping, stopped only occasionally for cotton cultivation and cock fights, that went on from 1619-1865 in Dixie.

    Or put another way :
    The left and the media prefer to wage their homosexuality crusade against white people in Indiana who do not wish to bake cakes for gay weddings , rather than the real messy work of highlighting the fact that homosexuality carries the death penalty in most Islamic countries . Iran has executed 700 people for the crime of homosexuality over the past 30 years . But thats nothing compared to a refusal to bake a cake !

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    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    crusade against white people in Indiana who do not wish to bake cakes for gay weddings...
     
    No, in Indiana it was a refusal to pizza-cater a (hypothetical) gay wedding.

    Who the hell caters a wedding with pizzas? And a gay wedding, to boot.

    If young brides are now cutting wood-fired or Chicago-style at their receptions, our civilization is too far gone to retrieve.
    , @AndrewR
    Not defending militant gay supremacy but your comparison is obscene. Ameeican leftists have no power in Iran. They have much power in the US. You might as well criticize Iranians for being more concerned over what consenting adults do in private than over the blatant public degeneracy of gay pride parades in the US.
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  15. Can pygmies interbreed with other humans?

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    • Replies: @Jus' Sayin'...
    This may no longer be the right question. There is a lot of natural mating going on among dogs, coyotes, and wolves. And the offspring are not only viable but fertile. There has also been evidence of mating between polar bears and grizzly bears that has produced hybrid offspring..
    , @Anonymous
    Only a matter of time before the good ol' San Fernando porn behemoth, (sorry Steve), will see to that. And oh, that 'great event' will, of course be pre-figured by 'diversity visa lotteries' 'green cards, and the archetypal 'vibrant Pygmy community living in LA county' subsisting on food stamps, alcohol, bang bang guns with bigger nastier Bantu tribes - no change there - and a bit of forced subsistence genital porn showing for that great Californian American industry.
    , @Stan d Mute

    Can pygmies interbreed with other humans?
     
    Another, equally interesting, question is whether the miscarriage rate is higher for hybrids of differing sub-species and which sub-species are least reproductively compatible. Can Eskimo reproduce with African Pygmies? Do Eskimo/Pygmy hybrids self terminate more often than Bantu/Nordic hybrids? Is there a large enough hybrid population to know if there are common pathologies unique to hybrids?

    But of course just asking these basic questions is a thought crime so I'm highly doubtful any scientific answers will be found.
    , @anonymous
    I recall somebody mentioning that pygmies can mate with others, but there were often complications with the pregnancies and a large percentage of them don't come to term.

    To be honest, I can't recall the details but apparently there ARE some issues around pygmies outbreeding with others.
    , @Colleen Pater
    not a valid test may species can breed even breed fertile offspring liger
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  16. @Chrisnonymous

    It’s like Black Lives Matter agitation
     
    Speaking of which, although it wasn't BLM, cancelling the Chicago rally was a mistake, I think. It's only going to encourage more protests and makes him look a little weak.

    Why didn’t he negotiate a deal with the protesters? The best deal with protesters ever. It would have been beautiful.

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    • Replies: @Chrisnonymous
    Yes, of course. If you've been reading the comments on this site for a while, you'll know I've been skeptical of Trump since the beginning but his campaign has a great potential to up-end the status quo. I'm willing to put up with 4 years of chaos as long as we get real chaos.

    I agree that Trump is kind of buffoonish, but actually I like Trump the clueless yet fearless candidate better than Trump the cautious and clueless candidate.
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  17. 1) the modern species concept cannot really be applied to the genus Homo as you can only divide those groups morphologically, through typological categories. But even in modern homo sapiens morphological differences are HUGE, compared to all the other mammals.

    2) the concept of Homo sapiens has failed a lot of times, e.g. Australian aborigines did not cluster with the other groups assigned to homo sapiens on morphological grounds, instead they went to the homo erectus cluster.

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  18. On questions of Pygmies and subspecies classification I always consult a z-score calculator. https://www.fourmilab.ch/rpkp/experiments/analysis/zCalc.html

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  19. @Steve Sailer
    We have a hieroglyphic from 4000 years ago of the pharaoh's shopping list, including one dancing dwarf from down south.

    Wait, are you saying the pygmies put those dudes in that cave themselves because the pharaoh made them? Or because they were mad he made them dance?

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    • Replies: @Pericles
    Nah comrade, the dudes in the cave were pygmies who put other taller pygmies in the grain pyramids because they were pygmies and perfect in a cave. But they were mad that they were made to dance by dudes like PAUL WALKER. The shopping list is clear.
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  20. Didn’t Bantus historically consider Pygmies a food source?

    If so, I doubt that you’ll get much support for them from the surrounding populations except for the (very) odd Bantu vegetarian.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Perhaps there's the origin of the term 'short rations'.
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  21. Leftist conservative [AKA "Make Unz.com Great Again"] says: • Website

    pygmies usually die of old age by about 30 years or so. And they start having babies really really young. Political correctness requires that no one make a big deal about this.

    One theory is that the load of parasites and other forms of life in their jungle habitat requires that they live short lives.

    So it might be tempting to call them another species. But genetically they are just regular humans.
    I think the pygmies are just a variation of modern humans caused by gene expression. Humanity has the ability to live in many different environments, but some environments cause us to appear very different.

    A lot of scientists are now saying that archaic forms of man, e.g., homo erectus etc are really all the same species, but just highly variable due to gene expression.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Live fast. Die young. Grow small.
    , @gcochran
    "pygmies usually die of old age by about 30 years or so"

    False.
    , @SPMoore8
    A lot of scientists are now saying that archaic forms of man, e.g., homo erectus

    I don't know who's saying this, but I'd say it's probably right. I've seen humans who resemble homo erectus, and I'm not making a joke about gay parades, either.

    The problem is that there really is a broad variation -- not infinite variation -- among human types. But it's a no no to say that any of this can be classified by groups. And it's not just in terms of skin color either; there are other issues such as stature, musculature, bone structure, physiognomy, etc. among groups of whites as well. It's strange that we have to pretend these differences don't exist.

    On the other hand, we know that "species" exist, but then again we also know that "species" can cross breed and produce various offspring, fertile, not fertile, and sometimes quite attractive and capable offspring: not just bears or equines (as another posted noted), but lion and tiger offspring are also not uncommon, and surely they are separate "species." What this does is change the concept of "species" into a less hard definition and a more fluid idea of gene expression capabilities: the "species" (as an elastic concept) may still exist but the basic ur-concept, concerning the creation of viable offspring becomes more fluid. No, this is not a call for "speciesfluid" as a concept, or for people sexually abusing mammals.

    As this applies to humans, we know that there are many subsets of hominid (or is it hominin?) going back to erectus and we can identify traces of them in many modern humans (Neanders, Denisovans). So that reinforces the notion that all homos can procreate (not trying to make a joke here, just telegraphing). But at the same time, that does not invalidate the idea that there are broad variations among human groups, the real issue is how hard and fast we want to be about such variations.

    The whole idea of Western Civilization in the past several hundred years is that no genetic variation among humans should make any difference, and that's fine from a moral / religious point of view. But nobody actually lives their lives by making no discrimination among humans, whether it be friends, associates, or mates, and there are broad correlations between one's genetic variation and what one does and what one achieves in the culture in which we live (or any successful culture that provides minimal safety, subsistence, and luxuries.) The problem is that you cannot say that in America (or the West in general) because it smacks of genetic determinism and because the inequality of results in actual human lives is never going to be fixed. Since we are now also living in a world where the empirical world is the only world that exists, and living lives for which there is no post-life consolation or rectification, let alone punishment, it's only natural that a lot of people are going to be angry.

    I mean, let's face it, if this is the only life there is, and there are "winners" and "losers", what's to stop a loser from getting a gun and doing his thing, because it doesn't matter anymore? This speaks to the collapse of any moral/religious idea on the one hand and a loss of the habit of respecting each other on the other.
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  22. @Flip
    Can pygmies interbreed with other humans?

    This may no longer be the right question. There is a lot of natural mating going on among dogs, coyotes, and wolves. And the offspring are not only viable but fertile. There has also been evidence of mating between polar bears and grizzly bears that has produced hybrid offspring..

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    I consider dogs and wolves to be part of the same species, so I also consider pygmies to be part of the same species I belong to.
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  23. Nobody’s mentioned members of the same species are supposed to be able to bear fertile offspring? If members of other groups have had kids with the Pygmies, that would be proof they’re members of the same species. I think they stop growing early on but are the same size at birth, so you wouldn’t have the problems fitting the hybrid kid’s head through the Pygmy mom’s birth canal.

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    • Replies: @Alec Leamas
    Are you sure about this? Lions can impregnate Tigers and vice versa, but they're clearly separate and distinct species.
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  24. When people mention pygmies I keep thinking of that diminutive rascal Tatoo. Who wouldn’t want a servant/henchman like him?

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    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    When people mention pygmies I keep thinking of that diminutive rascal Tatoo. Who wouldn’t want a servant/henchman like him?
     
    Tattoo was a gypsy, not a pygmy. Both have two Ys (Kleinfelter's in reverse?), and are PG as well, but otherwise have little in common.
    , @Stan d Mute

    When people mention pygmies I keep thinking of that diminutive rascal Tatoo. Who wouldn’t want a servant/henchman like him?
     
    Apparently there is some number of people who want Tattoo as POTUS. Every time I see our community college candidate, a shiver of anticipation runs up my leg as I imagine him saying, "The plane, the plane!" while pointing at Air Force One.
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  25. There’s lots of interbreeding between Pygmies and other Africans. But then, there was interbreeding between anatomically modern humans and Neanderthals, between AMH and Denisovans, between Neanderthals and Denisovans, between Denisovans and some very archaic group, between Pygmies/Bushmen and a different very archaic group. Probably people today could interbreed with homo erectus if we went back with a time machine and grabbed a few of the cuter ones.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    We don't need a time machine. Richard Fuerle demonstrated that interbreeding with homo erectus is possible in his book on the evolution of modern humans, which is available in its entirety here:

    http://erectuswalksamongst.us/
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  26. @Spotted Toad
    In 2007, I went with a group of science teachers to some workshops led by the bigwigs at the American Museum of Natural History. The curator of vertebrate paleontology went first, talked about the biological species concept, and we talked some about how bacteria made this concept so problematic- they can exchange DNA with each other even when they're not closely related.

    Next came Ian Tattersall, a great physical anthropologist who presented a brilliant hour-long lecture on human evolution culminating in the Lascaux caves and other Cro-Magnon artifacts. I loved teaching evolution, so I'd already seen a lot of them, but he really tied everything together in a coherent way. Then, he said, in a not hidden note of relief- "and now thanks to the Blombos caves in South Africa, we have evidence that symbolic reasoning dated from 75,000 years ago in Africa, not from the later Cro-Magnon dates in Europe." And he showed the not-entirely impressive (particularly after the range of Cro-Magnon art) marks on ocher that were found at Blombos. And he said, by way of wrapping up, "we can be sure that no human evolution is happening now, the population is too big for any directional selection in the past many thousand years." It was only too clear that he was emotionally invested in the idea of a global, biologically undifferentiated human species. In spite of his vast knowledge, his dispassion about results ended at the moment at which presently-living human beings split off from one another.

    More recently, it occurred to me he might have been directly responding to Cochran and Harpending.

    Ian Tattersall doesn’t know or believe in modern population genetics. When it comes to evolution, he’s totally clueless. For example that bit about the population being ‘too big’ for adaptive evolution: that’s pure nonsense.

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    • Replies: @Spotted Toad
    Yeah, at the time I thought, "well what about aversion to birth control?"

    Tattersall and one of his colleagues wrote a pretty good children's book that I read to my kids about using genomic data to understand human evolution (http://www.amazon.com/Bones-Brains-DNA-Evolution-Wallace/dp/159373056X) and the new version of the AMNH's Human Evolution Hall they designed (with Elliot Spitzer's family money) focuses a lot on genes, but my guess would be he views genetics more as a data source for understanding relationships than as the active process guiding things along. There was this funny coda to the remembrance he published of Stephen Jay Gould several years back (http://www.naturalhistorymag.com/perspectives/112413/remembering-stephen-jay-gould ):

    Tattersall: There is no doubt whatsoever that Gould’s humane and passionate writing in defense of racial equality will be looked upon by future anthropologists and historians as a beacon of rational positivism in an age in which genetic reductionism was showing alarming signs of resurgence—as indeed it still is, as race-stratified genome-wide association studies continue to dominate research on human variation. As Gould’s longtime friend, the anthropologist Richard Milner, told a correspondent from Discover magazine: “Whatever conclusions he reached, rightly or wrongly, he did with complete conviction and integrity. He was a tireless combatant against racism in any form, and if he was guilty of the kind of unconscious bias in science that he warned against, at least his bias was on the side of the angels.”
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  27. @SFG
    Nobody's mentioned members of the same species are supposed to be able to bear fertile offspring? If members of other groups have had kids with the Pygmies, that would be proof they're members of the same species. I think they stop growing early on but are the same size at birth, so you wouldn't have the problems fitting the hybrid kid's head through the Pygmy mom's birth canal.

    Are you sure about this? Lions can impregnate Tigers and vice versa, but they’re clearly separate and distinct species.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Well a chap who glories in the absurd moniker of 'Lionel Tiger' featured on Steve yesterday.
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  28. @marwan
    Its not just that nice white people don't care about what blacks do to other blacks . No one cares much about what muslims do to other muslims , or even what muslims do to anyone else . Consider these 2 curious cases that the media chooses not to cover and no one can be bothered to care about :

    The plight of the Papuan people . Their homeland was invaded , occupied and colonized by Indonesia in 1963 . Genocide ensued and continues to this day . 500,000 papuans have been killed . There is a 20 year prison sentence for raising the Papuan flag . The policy of Trans Migrasi is an ethnic cleansing and settlement policy where the ruling class of Indonesia , the Javanese , are used to displace the native Papuan population . Consider too the racial element . Papuans are melanesian race , while Indonesians are Asian . Papuans are much darker and face discrimination and ridicule . Indonesians are much lighter than Papuans . Even the racially charged left, who make racism a part of everything , appeasing muslims trumps racism .

    We all know slavery was bad 150 years ago but how about now ? In the Islamic republic of Mauritania there are 600,000 people living as slaves. Of course the slaves are the darker skinned and the slave owners are arabic descent . Not a peep out of the media about this . Imagine if there were 600,000 slaves in Texas or Slovenia . It would be non stop wall to wall media attention 24/7/365 but since its slavery committed by muslims its ignored by the media and labeled an exotic cultural more that stupid white people couldn't possibly understand , thusly they are in no position to criticize . Its completely baffling that slavery that occurred in America 150 years ago gets more media attention in 2016 than slavery thats currently happening now .

    As long as you are not white you get a pass for behaving badly. Only whites must be punished for their sins, real or imagined, past, present and future. This is the very first law of cultural Marxism.

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  29. After reading this I thought to myself, “Heavens, this is the [current year]. Surely there must be some modern PC term for ‘pygmy’”. So off to the most reliable source of PC’ism, Wikipedia, I went. It seems Wikipedia is sad that there is no PC term for pygmy, LOL.

    “The term pygmy is sometimes considered pejorative. However, there is no single term to replace it.”

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    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    I've never heard of a Pygmy intellectual.
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  30. @Cloudswrest
    After reading this I thought to myself, "Heavens, this is the [current year]. Surely there must be some modern PC term for 'pygmy'". So off to the most reliable source of PC'ism, Wikipedia, I went. It seems Wikipedia is sad that there is no PC term for pygmy, LOL.

    "The term pygmy is sometimes considered pejorative. However, there is no single term to replace it."

    I’ve never heard of a Pygmy intellectual.

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    • Replies: @Trelane
    I googled "pygmy intellectual". You're right. Lol
    , @Anonymous
    But of 'intellectual pygmies' there are a-plenty.
    , @Rob McX
    Start Pygmy Studies courses in universities and the need for someone to teach them will automatically generate pygmy intellectuals.
    , @EvolutionistX
    Still a Pygmy by Isaac Bacirongo and Michael Nest


    "Growing up as a hunter-gatherer in the forests of Congo, ...Isaac Bacirongo never dreamed he would end up living in Australia. He also never imagined that he would get a high school education, fall in love with a "town girl," start a prosperous business, and even own his own car... Isaac decided to make a stand and helped established the first indigenous rights organization for Pygmies in Congo. ... Despite all his hardships, Isaac’s observant intelligence, humor, and compassion shine through in this story of war, witchcraft, prejudice, love, and courage. This is the inspiring and true story of one man’s transformation from hunter-gatherer to prosperous businessman to Australian resident, and advocate for the rights of his people’s identity. It is the first memoir by a Pygmy author ever published."

    I haven't read the book, and I don't know if Bacirongo is half-Bantu or something like that, and certainly I don't know if he can do advanced math, but it certainly seems within the realm of reason that many pygmies come across as normal folks who happen to be short and just don't want to get eaten by their taller neighbors.
    , @Ray
    About Pygmy intellectuals..........
    But we have intellectual pygmies in parliament . ( Drum-roll .)
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  31. [using the slow rate, the split time between Pygmies and Bantu is ~300k years ago – long before any archaeological sign of behavioral modernity (however you define it) and well before the first known fossils of AMH]

    That should make one sceptical of slow rates and split times, not ready to exclude pygmies from homo sapiens sapiens.

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    • Replies: @gcochran
    The slow rate predicts that Neanderthals split off from modern humans something like 600,000 years ago, which is what the fossil record shows. It also predicts the current observed mutation rate. The previous fast mutation rate disagrees with A. the fossil record and B. contemporary family-trio measurements - in other words, it's wrong. I can see why you would prefer it.
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  32. Like many people I was informed (rightly or wrongly) by school science teachers that if two breeds of animal can interbreed and have fertile offspring then they must be the same species. However, as Steve points out, biologists often downplay similarities between subspecies and go to great lengths to protect subspecies from dying out or interbreeding.

    There’s an amusing example in New Zealand where the Department of Conservative is trying to stop a rare native Black Stilt from interbreeding with a more common Pied (black and white) Stilt. It doesn’t seem to dawn on these guys that they are trying to promote a zoologist’s version of Apartheid (keep the stilt races seperate! fight animal miscegenation!)

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    • Replies: @dumpstersquirrel
    "There’s an amusing example in New Zealand where the Department of Conservative is trying to stop a rare native Black Stilt from interbreeding with a more common Pied (black and white) Stilt."

    And here in Oregon, anti-logging misanthropes (i.e., "environmentalists") are forever lamenting the interbreeding of their precious and politically-useful spotted owls with fecund and aggressive barred owls, which are actually the same species even though they look much different. The barred owls are so sexually aggressive that spotted owls are projected to disappear in a decade or so. Would these misanthropes shed as many tears for the disappearance of the White race?

    Speciation, when defined rigorously as the birth of a creature that is genetically sexually incompatible with its parent species and yet sexually compatible with its own new species, has never been observed, so biologists like a squishy, non-rigorous definition of "species" so they may declare a species whenever it's convenient for them. And, as a bonus, these semantic games "prove" that evolution and speciation occur. The terms race, kind, and species were used interchangeably in the 19th Century, but "race" is the most appropriate term to describe genetically compatible creatures who nevertheless look and/or behave much differently.
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  33. @Steve Sailer
    I've never heard of a Pygmy intellectual.

    I googled “pygmy intellectual”. You’re right. Lol

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    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    In contrast, there are a few thousand Google hits for "Roma intellectual" -- Soros funds something. There are big time Gypsy musicians and a number of top actors are part Gypsy, perhaps including Chaplin.
    , @PiltdownMan
    I cannot resist observing that intellectual pygmies, on the other hand, are a dime a dozen.

    Pygmies do have culture, though. Primarily in song and verse recitation activities, apparently. The Mbuti have a CD issued by the Smithsonian.

    http://www.folkways.si.edu/mbuti-pygmies-of-the-ituri-rainforest/world/music/album/smithsonian

    The Twa were a dominant group in Rwanda until assimilation into other cultures. Also know for verse contests and such.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNhAIPcoYY0
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  34. @5371
    [using the slow rate, the split time between Pygmies and Bantu is ~300k years ago – long before any archaeological sign of behavioral modernity (however you define it) and well before the first known fossils of AMH]

    That should make one sceptical of slow rates and split times, not ready to exclude pygmies from homo sapiens sapiens.

    The slow rate predicts that Neanderthals split off from modern humans something like 600,000 years ago, which is what the fossil record shows. It also predicts the current observed mutation rate. The previous fast mutation rate disagrees with A. the fossil record and B. contemporary family-trio measurements – in other words, it’s wrong. I can see why you would prefer it.

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    • Replies: @5371
    No. Hundreds of instances could be presented in which assuming a slow rate of mutation leads to absurd results. Here's one:

    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/12/y-chromosomes-of-maronites-from-lebanon.html
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  35. @gcochran
    There's lots of interbreeding between Pygmies and other Africans. But then, there was interbreeding between anatomically modern humans and Neanderthals, between AMH and Denisovans, between Neanderthals and Denisovans, between Denisovans and some very archaic group, between Pygmies/Bushmen and a different very archaic group. Probably people today could interbreed with homo erectus if we went back with a time machine and grabbed a few of the cuter ones.

    We don’t need a time machine. Richard Fuerle demonstrated that interbreeding with homo erectus is possible in his book on the evolution of modern humans, which is available in its entirety here:

    http://erectuswalksamongst.us/

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    • Replies: @gcochran
    All lies, of course. Some people like that.
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  36. @Trelane
    I googled "pygmy intellectual". You're right. Lol

    In contrast, there are a few thousand Google hits for “Roma intellectual” — Soros funds something. There are big time Gypsy musicians and a number of top actors are part Gypsy, perhaps including Chaplin.

    Read More
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  37. @gcochran
    The slow rate predicts that Neanderthals split off from modern humans something like 600,000 years ago, which is what the fossil record shows. It also predicts the current observed mutation rate. The previous fast mutation rate disagrees with A. the fossil record and B. contemporary family-trio measurements - in other words, it's wrong. I can see why you would prefer it.

    No. Hundreds of instances could be presented in which assuming a slow rate of mutation leads to absurd results. Here’s one:

    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/12/y-chromosomes-of-maronites-from-lebanon.html

    Read More
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  38. Lately, however, things have gotten more complicated as it turns out that a lot of modern people have some ancestry from Neanderthals . . . .

    And, I would wager, some have a lot.

    Stand by.

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  39. If you knew anything about intelligent design you would know that God created pygmies for comic relief.

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  40. @Anonymous
    We don't need a time machine. Richard Fuerle demonstrated that interbreeding with homo erectus is possible in his book on the evolution of modern humans, which is available in its entirety here:

    http://erectuswalksamongst.us/

    All lies, of course. Some people like that.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    No, it's a fully referenced work:

    http://erectuswalksamongst.us/References.html

    Some people can't handle the truth and are reduced to calling people liars.
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  41. Well, Steve, there are an awfully high number of intellectual pygmies running university anthropological departments etc, so the idea is probably a non-starter.

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  42. @Steve Sailer
    We have a hieroglyphic from 4000 years ago of the pharaoh's shopping list, including one dancing dwarf from down south.

    Sounds rather like the ancient equivalent of yer typical American ‘rap video’.

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  43. @Alec Leamas
    Are you sure about this? Lions can impregnate Tigers and vice versa, but they're clearly separate and distinct species.

    Well a chap who glories in the absurd moniker of ‘Lionel Tiger’ featured on Steve yesterday.

    Read More
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  44. @Trelane
    I googled "pygmy intellectual". You're right. Lol

    I cannot resist observing that intellectual pygmies, on the other hand, are a dime a dozen.

    Pygmies do have culture, though. Primarily in song and verse recitation activities, apparently. The Mbuti have a CD issued by the Smithsonian.

    http://www.folkways.si.edu/mbuti-pygmies-of-the-ituri-rainforest/world/music/album/smithsonian

    The Twa were a dominant group in Rwanda until assimilation into other cultures. Also know for verse contests and such.

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    • Replies: @BB753
    Good stuff! Better than rap, anyway.
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  45. @marwan

    With the exception of the Jihad watch sorts, I’ve yet to see people collectively get as overtly virtue-signaled outraged over centuries of enslaved hetero or homosexual exploitation in other societies as they do about the evidently near-constant raping, stopped only occasionally for cotton cultivation and cock fights, that went on from 1619-1865 in Dixie.
     
    Or put another way :
    The left and the media prefer to wage their homosexuality crusade against white people in Indiana who do not wish to bake cakes for gay weddings , rather than the real messy work of highlighting the fact that homosexuality carries the death penalty in most Islamic countries . Iran has executed 700 people for the crime of homosexuality over the past 30 years . But thats nothing compared to a refusal to bake a cake !

    crusade against white people in Indiana who do not wish to bake cakes for gay weddings…

    No, in Indiana it was a refusal to pizza-cater a (hypothetical) gay wedding.

    Who the hell caters a wedding with pizzas? And a gay wedding, to boot.

    If young brides are now cutting wood-fired or Chicago-style at their receptions, our civilization is too far gone to retrieve.

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    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen

    Who the hell caters a wedding with pizzas?
     
    Poor people. Which is why it was so inspiring when the CEO of the world's largest company by market cap stood up to them.
    , @njguy73
    Who the hell caters a wedding with pizzas? And a gay wedding, to boot?

    A gay couple who knows beforehand that the pizza place will turn them down, this enabling them to make a big stink.

    The gay couple in question never intended for the wedding to be catered that way. It was a setup.
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  46. @rod1963
    When people mention pygmies I keep thinking of that diminutive rascal Tatoo. Who wouldn't want a servant/henchman like him?

    When people mention pygmies I keep thinking of that diminutive rascal Tatoo. Who wouldn’t want a servant/henchman like him?

    Tattoo was a gypsy, not a pygmy. Both have two Ys (Kleinfelter’s in reverse?), and are PG as well, but otherwise have little in common.

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  47. To my untrained eye ‘pygmies’ look exactly like regular sub-saharan African blacks – only, so it seems, – put through the wrong wash-cycle.

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  48. @Steve Sailer
    I've never heard of a Pygmy intellectual.

    But of ‘intellectual pygmies’ there are a-plenty.

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  49. @Leftist conservative
    pygmies usually die of old age by about 30 years or so. And they start having babies really really young. Political correctness requires that no one make a big deal about this.

    One theory is that the load of parasites and other forms of life in their jungle habitat requires that they live short lives.

    So it might be tempting to call them another species. But genetically they are just regular humans.
    I think the pygmies are just a variation of modern humans caused by gene expression. Humanity has the ability to live in many different environments, but some environments cause us to appear very different.

    A lot of scientists are now saying that archaic forms of man, e.g., homo erectus etc are really all the same species, but just highly variable due to gene expression.

    Live fast. Die young. Grow small.

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  50. @Alec Leamas
    Didn't Bantus historically consider Pygmies a food source?

    If so, I doubt that you'll get much support for them from the surrounding populations except for the (very) odd Bantu vegetarian.

    Perhaps there’s the origin of the term ‘short rations’.

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    • Agree: gruff
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  51. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Flip
    Can pygmies interbreed with other humans?

    Only a matter of time before the good ol’ San Fernando porn behemoth, (sorry Steve), will see to that. And oh, that ‘great event’ will, of course be pre-figured by ‘diversity visa lotteries’ ‘green cards, and the archetypal ‘vibrant Pygmy community living in LA county’ subsisting on food stamps, alcohol, bang bang guns with bigger nastier Bantu tribes – no change there – and a bit of forced subsistence genital porn showing for that great Californian American industry.

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    • Replies: @Cloudswrest

    Only a matter of time before the good ol’ San Fernando porn behemoth, (sorry Steve), will see to that.
     
    I don't know about that. Because of this article I was Google image searching on pygmies and numbers 3 and 5 from the left have some of the saggiest tits I've ever seen. Apologies to National Geographic.

    http://www.mendosa.com/fitnessblog/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/pygmies.jpg
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  52. Recent geopolitical trends may not have been entirely favorable to pygmies.

    Just as people on this website complain about our countries culture being eroded by mass immigration, minorities in the “vibrant and diverse” world are being destroyed. I don’t know anything about pigmys, except that they are not cannibals and don’t seem to wish me any evil (except for the ones in the Andamans).

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  53. @Leftist conservative
    pygmies usually die of old age by about 30 years or so. And they start having babies really really young. Political correctness requires that no one make a big deal about this.

    One theory is that the load of parasites and other forms of life in their jungle habitat requires that they live short lives.

    So it might be tempting to call them another species. But genetically they are just regular humans.
    I think the pygmies are just a variation of modern humans caused by gene expression. Humanity has the ability to live in many different environments, but some environments cause us to appear very different.

    A lot of scientists are now saying that archaic forms of man, e.g., homo erectus etc are really all the same species, but just highly variable due to gene expression.

    “pygmies usually die of old age by about 30 years or so”

    False.

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    • Replies: @Leftist conservative
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/3317989/Pygmies-life-expectancy-is-between-16-and-24.html
    , @Leftist conservative
    http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/12/071210-pygmy-size_2.html


    Pygmies' Small Size Linked to Short Life Spans


    "I found cases of women 28 years old who said they no longer experienced menstruation. Very few births were occurring to women more than 30 years of age," he said.
    , @Romanian
    Allow me to say that I have read your book, The 10,000 Year Explosion, and found it immensely enjoyable. It was very readable and informative for a layman, and have recommended it to friends. I even read the deleted scenes on your website. Keep up the good work!
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  54. modern antiracism will never have real concern about pygmies. Besides all the talk about compassion etc. it is actually always about cheering for and defending the most aggressive, dominant group. Antiracists want to be on the winning side, and they support any group only as long as the group is likely to win.

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  55. @Reg Cæsar

    crusade against white people in Indiana who do not wish to bake cakes for gay weddings...
     
    No, in Indiana it was a refusal to pizza-cater a (hypothetical) gay wedding.

    Who the hell caters a wedding with pizzas? And a gay wedding, to boot.

    If young brides are now cutting wood-fired or Chicago-style at their receptions, our civilization is too far gone to retrieve.

    Who the hell caters a wedding with pizzas?

    Poor people. Which is why it was so inspiring when the CEO of the world’s largest company by market cap stood up to them.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Even 'poor people' don't do that.
    If persons are so financially stretched that they cannot afford a proper wedding 'do', the trick usually is to invite few, if any, people to the reception.
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  56. @Pat Casey
    Wait, are you saying the pygmies put those dudes in that cave themselves because the pharaoh made them? Or because they were mad he made them dance?

    Nah comrade, the dudes in the cave were pygmies who put other taller pygmies in the grain pyramids because they were pygmies and perfect in a cave. But they were mad that they were made to dance by dudes like PAUL WALKER. The shopping list is clear.

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  57. @Dave Pinsen

    Who the hell caters a wedding with pizzas?
     
    Poor people. Which is why it was so inspiring when the CEO of the world's largest company by market cap stood up to them.

    Even ‘poor people’ don’t do that.
    If persons are so financially stretched that they cannot afford a proper wedding ‘do’, the trick usually is to invite few, if any, people to the reception.

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  58. @Steve Sailer
    I've never heard of a Pygmy intellectual.

    Start Pygmy Studies courses in universities and the need for someone to teach them will automatically generate pygmy intellectuals.

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  59. @anowow
    Nope, the Left already has this covered.

    First, POC have no agency, so anything they do isn't as bad as if real adults do it, or, if it is bad, it's because white people, particularly Anglo-Saxons, haven't done enough to stop them. Samantha Power has written a helpful book about this.

    Otherwise, slavery, you see, in non-Western cultures wasn't really slavery. It was more like being in a family. It was only Anglo-Saxon chattel slavery that truly dehumanized slaves.

    With the exception of the Jihad watch sorts, I've yet to see people collectively get as overtly virtue-signaled outraged over centuries of enslaved hetero or homosexual exploitation in other societies as they do about the evidently near-constant raping, stopped only occasionally for cotton cultivation and cock fights, that went on from 1619-1865 in Dixie.


    Excepting the R2Pers, who tend to be center-right or center-left, don't expect outraged, anguished laments about slaves in other societies from the faux-cosmopolitan, provincial coalition of the margins. It would serve no rent-seeking or status-seeking purpose.

    Don’t blame white folks for only caring about the slavery they committed themselves – it is the fact that THEY did it that disturbs them – they ARE trying to learn about themselves and come to terms with what happened, and for those who are Liberally-minded, that fact is shocking and it takes a while to understand how and why. This is not really yet all dealt with in Europeans and therefore caring about slavery by ‘others’ is too much of a stretch – in any case – isn’t it about those ‘others’ realizing what they are doing and coming to terms with their own role in enslaving other humans. Our ‘evolution’ towards a greater enlightenment is happening in little steps and we can only hope it is always in a positive direction ! Certainly I care about anybody having to live as a slave – but I can only sign a pledge or contribute money towards the fix for that, that fact makes me miserable, tell me what more I can do ?

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  60. Leftist conservative [AKA "Make Unz.com Great Again"] says: • Website
    @gcochran
    "pygmies usually die of old age by about 30 years or so"

    False.
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    • Replies: @gcochran
    In the US today the main thing limiting your lifespan is the onset of senescence: the program running out. But in many other situations, other factors, mainly infant mortality, limit the average lifespan. In London in 1800, the average lifespan was 29 - not because people aged faster then, but because of much higher infant mortality (infectious disease) and moderately higher adult mortality ( also infectious disease)

    The Pygmies have high infant mortality and fairly high adult mortality as well, apparently due to infectious disease. Do they get gray and creaky and suffer from cardiovascular disease at age 29? No. Do they age at a significantly different rate than other humans? I've never seen any evidence of it: would be interesting if true. Logically, if they have experienced this kind of high adult mortality for a long time, they should age more rapidly (according to the evolutionary theory of senescence). But I don't think we have any solid evidence for that.
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  61. @Reg Cæsar

    crusade against white people in Indiana who do not wish to bake cakes for gay weddings...
     
    No, in Indiana it was a refusal to pizza-cater a (hypothetical) gay wedding.

    Who the hell caters a wedding with pizzas? And a gay wedding, to boot.

    If young brides are now cutting wood-fired or Chicago-style at their receptions, our civilization is too far gone to retrieve.

    Who the hell caters a wedding with pizzas? And a gay wedding, to boot?

    A gay couple who knows beforehand that the pizza place will turn them down, this enabling them to make a big stink.

    The gay couple in question never intended for the wedding to be catered that way. It was a setup.

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    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    The gay couple in question never intended for the wedding to be catered that way.
     
    There was no "gay couple in question". It was a query by a local paper, or TV crew. You know, "journalists".

    It was a setup.
     
    Yes. A media setup.
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  62. @gcochran
    Ian Tattersall doesn't know or believe in modern population genetics. When it comes to evolution, he's totally clueless. For example that bit about the population being 'too big' for adaptive evolution: that's pure nonsense.

    Yeah, at the time I thought, “well what about aversion to birth control?”

    Tattersall and one of his colleagues wrote a pretty good children’s book that I read to my kids about using genomic data to understand human evolution (http://www.amazon.com/Bones-Brains-DNA-Evolution-Wallace/dp/159373056X) and the new version of the AMNH’s Human Evolution Hall they designed (with Elliot Spitzer’s family money) focuses a lot on genes, but my guess would be he views genetics more as a data source for understanding relationships than as the active process guiding things along. There was this funny coda to the remembrance he published of Stephen Jay Gould several years back (http://www.naturalhistorymag.com/perspectives/112413/remembering-stephen-jay-gould ):

    Tattersall: There is no doubt whatsoever that Gould’s humane and passionate writing in defense of racial equality will be looked upon by future anthropologists and historians as a beacon of rational positivism in an age in which genetic reductionism was showing alarming signs of resurgence—as indeed it still is, as race-stratified genome-wide association studies continue to dominate research on human variation. As Gould’s longtime friend, the anthropologist Richard Milner, told a correspondent from Discover magazine: “Whatever conclusions he reached, rightly or wrongly, he did with complete conviction and integrity. He was a tireless combatant against racism in any form, and if he was guilty of the kind of unconscious bias in science that he warned against, at least his bias was on the side of the angels.”

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  63. Leftist conservative [AKA "Make Unz.com Great Again"] says: • Website
    @gcochran
    "pygmies usually die of old age by about 30 years or so"

    False.

    http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/12/071210-pygmy-size_2.html

    Pygmies’ Small Size Linked to Short Life Spans

    “I found cases of women 28 years old who said they no longer experienced menstruation. Very few births were occurring to women more than 30 years of age,” he said.

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  64. @Flip
    Can pygmies interbreed with other humans?

    Can pygmies interbreed with other humans?

    Another, equally interesting, question is whether the miscarriage rate is higher for hybrids of differing sub-species and which sub-species are least reproductively compatible. Can Eskimo reproduce with African Pygmies? Do Eskimo/Pygmy hybrids self terminate more often than Bantu/Nordic hybrids? Is there a large enough hybrid population to know if there are common pathologies unique to hybrids?

    But of course just asking these basic questions is a thought crime so I’m highly doubtful any scientific answers will be found.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    It's not a thought crime. White male explorers and colonial types have been having children with women of different races for at least a few hundred years now.

    It seems that most of the time they can produce a lot of children, whether the women in question are Black, Native North American, Native South American, or Australoid.
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  65. @rod1963
    When people mention pygmies I keep thinking of that diminutive rascal Tatoo. Who wouldn't want a servant/henchman like him?

    When people mention pygmies I keep thinking of that diminutive rascal Tatoo. Who wouldn’t want a servant/henchman like him?

    Apparently there is some number of people who want Tattoo as POTUS. Every time I see our community college candidate, a shiver of anticipation runs up my leg as I imagine him saying, “The plane, the plane!” while pointing at Air Force One.

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  66. @gcochran
    "pygmies usually die of old age by about 30 years or so"

    False.

    Allow me to say that I have read your book, The 10,000 Year Explosion, and found it immensely enjoyable. It was very readable and informative for a layman, and have recommended it to friends. I even read the deleted scenes on your website. Keep up the good work!

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  67. @Stephen R. Diamond
    Why didn't he negotiate a deal with the protesters? The best deal with protesters ever. It would have been beautiful.

    Yes, of course. If you’ve been reading the comments on this site for a while, you’ll know I’ve been skeptical of Trump since the beginning but his campaign has a great potential to up-end the status quo. I’m willing to put up with 4 years of chaos as long as we get real chaos.

    I agree that Trump is kind of buffoonish, but actually I like Trump the clueless yet fearless candidate better than Trump the cautious and clueless candidate.

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  68. @Leftist conservative
    pygmies usually die of old age by about 30 years or so. And they start having babies really really young. Political correctness requires that no one make a big deal about this.

    One theory is that the load of parasites and other forms of life in their jungle habitat requires that they live short lives.

    So it might be tempting to call them another species. But genetically they are just regular humans.
    I think the pygmies are just a variation of modern humans caused by gene expression. Humanity has the ability to live in many different environments, but some environments cause us to appear very different.

    A lot of scientists are now saying that archaic forms of man, e.g., homo erectus etc are really all the same species, but just highly variable due to gene expression.

    A lot of scientists are now saying that archaic forms of man, e.g., homo erectus

    I don’t know who’s saying this, but I’d say it’s probably right. I’ve seen humans who resemble homo erectus, and I’m not making a joke about gay parades, either.

    The problem is that there really is a broad variation — not infinite variation — among human types. But it’s a no no to say that any of this can be classified by groups. And it’s not just in terms of skin color either; there are other issues such as stature, musculature, bone structure, physiognomy, etc. among groups of whites as well. It’s strange that we have to pretend these differences don’t exist.

    On the other hand, we know that “species” exist, but then again we also know that “species” can cross breed and produce various offspring, fertile, not fertile, and sometimes quite attractive and capable offspring: not just bears or equines (as another posted noted), but lion and tiger offspring are also not uncommon, and surely they are separate “species.” What this does is change the concept of “species” into a less hard definition and a more fluid idea of gene expression capabilities: the “species” (as an elastic concept) may still exist but the basic ur-concept, concerning the creation of viable offspring becomes more fluid. No, this is not a call for “speciesfluid” as a concept, or for people sexually abusing mammals.

    As this applies to humans, we know that there are many subsets of hominid (or is it hominin?) going back to erectus and we can identify traces of them in many modern humans (Neanders, Denisovans). So that reinforces the notion that all homos can procreate (not trying to make a joke here, just telegraphing). But at the same time, that does not invalidate the idea that there are broad variations among human groups, the real issue is how hard and fast we want to be about such variations.

    The whole idea of Western Civilization in the past several hundred years is that no genetic variation among humans should make any difference, and that’s fine from a moral / religious point of view. But nobody actually lives their lives by making no discrimination among humans, whether it be friends, associates, or mates, and there are broad correlations between one’s genetic variation and what one does and what one achieves in the culture in which we live (or any successful culture that provides minimal safety, subsistence, and luxuries.) The problem is that you cannot say that in America (or the West in general) because it smacks of genetic determinism and because the inequality of results in actual human lives is never going to be fixed. Since we are now also living in a world where the empirical world is the only world that exists, and living lives for which there is no post-life consolation or rectification, let alone punishment, it’s only natural that a lot of people are going to be angry.

    I mean, let’s face it, if this is the only life there is, and there are “winners” and “losers”, what’s to stop a loser from getting a gun and doing his thing, because it doesn’t matter anymore? This speaks to the collapse of any moral/religious idea on the one hand and a loss of the habit of respecting each other on the other.

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  69. @Anonymous
    Only a matter of time before the good ol' San Fernando porn behemoth, (sorry Steve), will see to that. And oh, that 'great event' will, of course be pre-figured by 'diversity visa lotteries' 'green cards, and the archetypal 'vibrant Pygmy community living in LA county' subsisting on food stamps, alcohol, bang bang guns with bigger nastier Bantu tribes - no change there - and a bit of forced subsistence genital porn showing for that great Californian American industry.

    Only a matter of time before the good ol’ San Fernando porn behemoth, (sorry Steve), will see to that.

    I don’t know about that. Because of this article I was Google image searching on pygmies and numbers 3 and 5 from the left have some of the saggiest tits I’ve ever seen. Apologies to National Geographic.

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  70. @Chrisnonymous

    It’s like Black Lives Matter agitation
     
    Speaking of which, although it wasn't BLM, cancelling the Chicago rally was a mistake, I think. It's only going to encourage more protests and makes him look a little weak.

    Because the cops openly stated they couldnt keep the peace and Trump didn’t want mass violence at his rally.

    This isn’t rocket science. Trump doesn’t look weak. You look willfully ignorant.

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    • Replies: @SF
    There is a he said she said debate on whether the cops really advised him to call it off. Personally, I think he knew his supporters would beat the shit out of the protestors and he doesn't need that kind of negative publicity 4 days before Florida and Ohio.
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  71. @marwan

    With the exception of the Jihad watch sorts, I’ve yet to see people collectively get as overtly virtue-signaled outraged over centuries of enslaved hetero or homosexual exploitation in other societies as they do about the evidently near-constant raping, stopped only occasionally for cotton cultivation and cock fights, that went on from 1619-1865 in Dixie.
     
    Or put another way :
    The left and the media prefer to wage their homosexuality crusade against white people in Indiana who do not wish to bake cakes for gay weddings , rather than the real messy work of highlighting the fact that homosexuality carries the death penalty in most Islamic countries . Iran has executed 700 people for the crime of homosexuality over the past 30 years . But thats nothing compared to a refusal to bake a cake !

    Not defending militant gay supremacy but your comparison is obscene. Ameeican leftists have no power in Iran. They have much power in the US. You might as well criticize Iranians for being more concerned over what consenting adults do in private than over the blatant public degeneracy of gay pride parades in the US.

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    • Replies: @marwan

    Not defending militant gay supremacy but your comparison is obscene. Ameeican leftists have no power in Iran. They have much power in the US. You might as well criticize Iranians for being more concerned over what consenting adults do in private than over the blatant public degeneracy of gay pride parades in the US.
     
    I disagree . Our president is an American leftist . He just signed a deal with Iran which includes releasing 150 billion dollars in frozen monies . If president Obama and the rest of the left really cared as much as they say they do about homosexuals , there could have easily been some language inserted into the deal to the extant that homosexuality would be decriminalized in Iran and they would put an end to executing homosexuals . Would surely be much more of an advancement for homosexual rights than , say , the empty and cowardly proxy wars being fought by American leftists against midwestern pizza makers and cake bakers .
    , @Roger Sweeny
    What marwan (85.) said.

    Also, many of the same people and groups that are not making a big deal out of gay oppression abroad because it's out of the country, we don't have any direct power there, etc. had no problem making a big deal of apartheid in South Africa. There was a MORAL OBLIGATION to do whatever was necessary to end it.
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  72. I am pretty sure you are misrepresenting GC’s quote without the context of his blog. It is just a HBD polemic but nobody actually thinks pygmys are a separate species. They bred just fine with Bantus. Right?

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  73. @PiltdownMan
    I cannot resist observing that intellectual pygmies, on the other hand, are a dime a dozen.

    Pygmies do have culture, though. Primarily in song and verse recitation activities, apparently. The Mbuti have a CD issued by the Smithsonian.

    http://www.folkways.si.edu/mbuti-pygmies-of-the-ituri-rainforest/world/music/album/smithsonian

    The Twa were a dominant group in Rwanda until assimilation into other cultures. Also know for verse contests and such.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNhAIPcoYY0

    Good stuff! Better than rap, anyway.

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  74. @Flip
    Can pygmies interbreed with other humans?

    I recall somebody mentioning that pygmies can mate with others, but there were often complications with the pregnancies and a large percentage of them don’t come to term.

    To be honest, I can’t recall the details but apparently there ARE some issues around pygmies outbreeding with others.

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  75. Pygmy DNA looks too modern to have diverged from the DNA of other modern humans earlier than 80,000 years ago. On the other hand, it seems to have received admixture from a Homo erectus population about 35,000 years ago. This admixture is about 2% for modern Africans in general and is highest in pygmy groups. I suspect that this admixture is the reason why ancestral pygmies seem to have split off from the ancestors of other humans some 300,000 years ago (according to the slow rate estimate). There also seems to be admixture from later groups of archaic humans and hominins.

    Archaic admixture should not be ignored in estimates of this kind, particularly for Africa, as Hammer et al. (2011) point out:

    […] the greatest opportunity for introgression was in Africa, where AMH [anatomically modern humans] and various archaic forms coexisted for much longer than they did outside of Africa. Indeed, the fossil record indicates that a variety of transitional forms with a mosaic of archaic and modern features lived over an extensive geographic area from Morocco to South Africa between 200 and 35 kya.

    In any case, the decision to call a species a species is largely arbitrary. It’s a judgment call that is based partly on reproductive isolation (which is usually exaggerated), partly on morphological/behavioral differences, and partly on the estimated time of separation between the two groups.

    See:
    Hammer, M.F., A.E. Woerner, F.L. Mendez, J.C. Watkins, and J.D. Wall. (2011). Genetic evidence for archaic admixture in Africa, Proceedings of the National Academy of Science (USA)

    http://www.genomics.arizona.edu/PDFs/Hammer-Woerner-etal-2011.pdf

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    • Replies: @gcochran
    "Pygmy DNA looks too modern"

    Except that it doesn't.
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  76. @Flip
    Can pygmies interbreed with other humans?

    not a valid test may species can breed even breed fertile offspring liger

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  77. @unpc downunder
    Like many people I was informed (rightly or wrongly) by school science teachers that if two breeds of animal can interbreed and have fertile offspring then they must be the same species. However, as Steve points out, biologists often downplay similarities between subspecies and go to great lengths to protect subspecies from dying out or interbreeding.

    There's an amusing example in New Zealand where the Department of Conservative is trying to stop a rare native Black Stilt from interbreeding with a more common Pied (black and white) Stilt. It doesn't seem to dawn on these guys that they are trying to promote a zoologist's version of Apartheid (keep the stilt races seperate! fight animal miscegenation!)

    “There’s an amusing example in New Zealand where the Department of Conservative is trying to stop a rare native Black Stilt from interbreeding with a more common Pied (black and white) Stilt.”

    And here in Oregon, anti-logging misanthropes (i.e., “environmentalists”) are forever lamenting the interbreeding of their precious and politically-useful spotted owls with fecund and aggressive barred owls, which are actually the same species even though they look much different. The barred owls are so sexually aggressive that spotted owls are projected to disappear in a decade or so. Would these misanthropes shed as many tears for the disappearance of the White race?

    Speciation, when defined rigorously as the birth of a creature that is genetically sexually incompatible with its parent species and yet sexually compatible with its own new species, has never been observed, so biologists like a squishy, non-rigorous definition of “species” so they may declare a species whenever it’s convenient for them. And, as a bonus, these semantic games “prove” that evolution and speciation occur. The terms race, kind, and species were used interchangeably in the 19th Century, but “race” is the most appropriate term to describe genetically compatible creatures who nevertheless look and/or behave much differently.

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  78. @Steve Sailer
    I've never heard of a Pygmy intellectual.

    Still a Pygmy by Isaac Bacirongo and Michael Nest

    “Growing up as a hunter-gatherer in the forests of Congo, …Isaac Bacirongo never dreamed he would end up living in Australia. He also never imagined that he would get a high school education, fall in love with a “town girl,” start a prosperous business, and even own his own car… Isaac decided to make a stand and helped established the first indigenous rights organization for Pygmies in Congo. … Despite all his hardships, Isaac’s observant intelligence, humor, and compassion shine through in this story of war, witchcraft, prejudice, love, and courage. This is the inspiring and true story of one man’s transformation from hunter-gatherer to prosperous businessman to Australian resident, and advocate for the rights of his people’s identity. It is the first memoir by a Pygmy author ever published.”

    I haven’t read the book, and I don’t know if Bacirongo is half-Bantu or something like that, and certainly I don’t know if he can do advanced math, but it certainly seems within the realm of reason that many pygmies come across as normal folks who happen to be short and just don’t want to get eaten by their taller neighbors.

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  79. Are there significant numbers of African Pygmy immigrants in Europe and/or the US? It would be interesting to know a bit about how they fare compared with other migrant populations. Occurs to me I’ve never seen this discussed. A bit of cursory Googling leads nowhere.

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    • Replies: @SPMoore8
    This is the best I can do. The list of Pygmy Americans is understandably short.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ota_Benga

    , @Anonymous
    Don't worry mate.

    You can bet your boots that in the near future there will be a MASSIVE (if you will) Pygmy immigration into Europe.
    It's supporters, namely the entire European political establishment, will claim that Pygmies are 'needed' to 'fund social security' and will also stress 'humanitarianism' in bringing them in.
    It will be exactly the Syrian crisis/circus in miniature.
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  80. @Chip Smith
    Are there significant numbers of African Pygmy immigrants in Europe and/or the US? It would be interesting to know a bit about how they fare compared with other migrant populations. Occurs to me I've never seen this discussed. A bit of cursory Googling leads nowhere.

    This is the best I can do. The list of Pygmy Americans is understandably short.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ota_Benga

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    • Replies: @Chip Smith
    Har, har. ("short")
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  81. @Steve Sailer
    I've never heard of a Pygmy intellectual.

    About Pygmy intellectuals……….
    But we have intellectual pygmies in parliament . ( Drum-roll .)

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  82. @SPMoore8
    This is the best I can do. The list of Pygmy Americans is understandably short.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ota_Benga

    Har, har. (“short”)

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    • Replies: @SPMoore8
    The internet is the place for stupid jokes. My wife and stepdaughters don't even clear five feet, if there was a massive influx of Pygmy Americans you can bet their devout wish to ban Randy Newman's "Short People" would come true.
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  83. If pygmies are really that divergent, then someone really needs to update this genetic linkage tree:

    I personally think chronological divergence is a poor way to classify life forms. Two populations separated by millions of years could both genetic preserve the phenotype of a common ancestor while another two populations separated by only thousands of years could be radically different.

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  84. @Chip Smith
    Har, har. ("short")

    The internet is the place for stupid jokes. My wife and stepdaughters don’t even clear five feet, if there was a massive influx of Pygmy Americans you can bet their devout wish to ban Randy Newman’s “Short People” would come true.

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    • Replies: @pumpkinperson
    if there was a massive influx of Pygmy Americans you can bet their devout wish to ban Randy Newman’s “Short People” would come true.

    I know immigration is not popular, but out of pure scientific curiousity, I would like to see a massive influx of Pygmies (and Bushmen) to America. I'd be very curious to see how they would perform on IQ tests if reared from birth in American society, how tall they would grow up to be, and how well they would perform economically.
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  85. @AndrewR
    Not defending militant gay supremacy but your comparison is obscene. Ameeican leftists have no power in Iran. They have much power in the US. You might as well criticize Iranians for being more concerned over what consenting adults do in private than over the blatant public degeneracy of gay pride parades in the US.

    Not defending militant gay supremacy but your comparison is obscene. Ameeican leftists have no power in Iran. They have much power in the US. You might as well criticize Iranians for being more concerned over what consenting adults do in private than over the blatant public degeneracy of gay pride parades in the US.

    I disagree . Our president is an American leftist . He just signed a deal with Iran which includes releasing 150 billion dollars in frozen monies . If president Obama and the rest of the left really cared as much as they say they do about homosexuals , there could have easily been some language inserted into the deal to the extant that homosexuality would be decriminalized in Iran and they would put an end to executing homosexuals . Would surely be much more of an advancement for homosexual rights than , say , the empty and cowardly proxy wars being fought by American leftists against midwestern pizza makers and cake bakers .

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  86. @gcochran
    All lies, of course. Some people like that.

    No, it’s a fully referenced work:

    http://erectuswalksamongst.us/References.html

    Some people can’t handle the truth and are reduced to calling people liars.

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    • Replies: @gcochran
    I've looked at it. It's horseshit.
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  87. @SPMoore8
    The internet is the place for stupid jokes. My wife and stepdaughters don't even clear five feet, if there was a massive influx of Pygmy Americans you can bet their devout wish to ban Randy Newman's "Short People" would come true.

    if there was a massive influx of Pygmy Americans you can bet their devout wish to ban Randy Newman’s “Short People” would come true.

    I know immigration is not popular, but out of pure scientific curiousity, I would like to see a massive influx of Pygmies (and Bushmen) to America. I’d be very curious to see how they would perform on IQ tests if reared from birth in American society, how tall they would grow up to be, and how well they would perform economically.

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  88. @njguy73
    Who the hell caters a wedding with pizzas? And a gay wedding, to boot?

    A gay couple who knows beforehand that the pizza place will turn them down, this enabling them to make a big stink.

    The gay couple in question never intended for the wedding to be catered that way. It was a setup.

    The gay couple in question never intended for the wedding to be catered that way.

    There was no “gay couple in question”. It was a query by a local paper, or TV crew. You know, “journalists”.

    It was a setup.

    Yes. A media setup.

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  89. @Anonymous
    No, it's a fully referenced work:

    http://erectuswalksamongst.us/References.html

    Some people can't handle the truth and are reduced to calling people liars.

    I’ve looked at it. It’s horseshit.

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  90. @Peter Frost
    Pygmy DNA looks too modern to have diverged from the DNA of other modern humans earlier than 80,000 years ago. On the other hand, it seems to have received admixture from a Homo erectus population about 35,000 years ago. This admixture is about 2% for modern Africans in general and is highest in pygmy groups. I suspect that this admixture is the reason why ancestral pygmies seem to have split off from the ancestors of other humans some 300,000 years ago (according to the slow rate estimate). There also seems to be admixture from later groups of archaic humans and hominins.

    Archaic admixture should not be ignored in estimates of this kind, particularly for Africa, as Hammer et al. (2011) point out:

    […] the greatest opportunity for introgression was in Africa, where AMH [anatomically modern humans] and various archaic forms coexisted for much longer than they did outside of Africa. Indeed, the fossil record indicates that a variety of transitional forms with a mosaic of archaic and modern features lived over an extensive geographic area from Morocco to South Africa between 200 and 35 kya.
     
    In any case, the decision to call a species a species is largely arbitrary. It's a judgment call that is based partly on reproductive isolation (which is usually exaggerated), partly on morphological/behavioral differences, and partly on the estimated time of separation between the two groups.

    See:
    Hammer, M.F., A.E. Woerner, F.L. Mendez, J.C. Watkins, and J.D. Wall. (2011). Genetic evidence for archaic admixture in Africa, Proceedings of the National Academy of Science (USA)
    http://www.genomics.arizona.edu/PDFs/Hammer-Woerner-etal-2011.pdf

    “Pygmy DNA looks too modern”

    Except that it doesn’t.

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  91. There are bird species that are physically indistinguishable but are classified as different species because they have different songs, in some cases the songs are even basically the same but are sung at different speeds.

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  92. @Leftist conservative
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/3317989/Pygmies-life-expectancy-is-between-16-and-24.html

    In the US today the main thing limiting your lifespan is the onset of senescence: the program running out. But in many other situations, other factors, mainly infant mortality, limit the average lifespan. In London in 1800, the average lifespan was 29 – not because people aged faster then, but because of much higher infant mortality (infectious disease) and moderately higher adult mortality ( also infectious disease)

    The Pygmies have high infant mortality and fairly high adult mortality as well, apparently due to infectious disease. Do they get gray and creaky and suffer from cardiovascular disease at age 29? No. Do they age at a significantly different rate than other humans? I’ve never seen any evidence of it: would be interesting if true. Logically, if they have experienced this kind of high adult mortality for a long time, they should age more rapidly (according to the evolutionary theory of senescence). But I don’t think we have any solid evidence for that.

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  93. @AndrewR
    Because the cops openly stated they couldnt keep the peace and Trump didn't want mass violence at his rally.

    This isn't rocket science. Trump doesn't look weak. You look willfully ignorant.

    There is a he said she said debate on whether the cops really advised him to call it off. Personally, I think he knew his supporters would beat the shit out of the protestors and he doesn’t need that kind of negative publicity 4 days before Florida and Ohio.

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    • Replies: @AndrewR
    Yeah you're right. I am surprised to see that the cops are singing a different tune than the Trump campaign. Regardless Trump made the right call. That would have been bad optics to have a bunch of BLMers and SJWs getting beaten by Trump supporters.
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  94. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Chip Smith
    Are there significant numbers of African Pygmy immigrants in Europe and/or the US? It would be interesting to know a bit about how they fare compared with other migrant populations. Occurs to me I've never seen this discussed. A bit of cursory Googling leads nowhere.

    Don’t worry mate.

    You can bet your boots that in the near future there will be a MASSIVE (if you will) Pygmy immigration into Europe.
    It’s supporters, namely the entire European political establishment, will claim that Pygmies are ‘needed’ to ‘fund social security’ and will also stress ‘humanitarianism’ in bringing them in.
    It will be exactly the Syrian crisis/circus in miniature.

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    • Replies: @BB753
    Pardon the pun but as population booms in Africa, they're going to get the short end of the stick.
    They'll be driven out of their forests and homes, massacred and hunted for their meat by the Bantus. Wait, that's already happened.
    We're only a few decades away from a pygmycide, large scale.
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  95. @Anonymous
    Don't worry mate.

    You can bet your boots that in the near future there will be a MASSIVE (if you will) Pygmy immigration into Europe.
    It's supporters, namely the entire European political establishment, will claim that Pygmies are 'needed' to 'fund social security' and will also stress 'humanitarianism' in bringing them in.
    It will be exactly the Syrian crisis/circus in miniature.

    Pardon the pun but as population booms in Africa, they’re going to get the short end of the stick.
    They’ll be driven out of their forests and homes, massacred and hunted for their meat by the Bantus. Wait, that’s already happened.
    We’re only a few decades away from a pygmycide, large scale.

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    • Replies: @SPMoore8
    This comment thread is turning into a #shortlivesmatter fest. Not that it bothers me.
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  96. @SF
    There is a he said she said debate on whether the cops really advised him to call it off. Personally, I think he knew his supporters would beat the shit out of the protestors and he doesn't need that kind of negative publicity 4 days before Florida and Ohio.

    Yeah you’re right. I am surprised to see that the cops are singing a different tune than the Trump campaign. Regardless Trump made the right call. That would have been bad optics to have a bunch of BLMers and SJWs getting beaten by Trump supporters.

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  97. Except that it doesn’t.

    Greg,

    Then how do you explain the presence of modern lineages (L2 and L3) among the pygmies? L1 might be older than in the quote below (per the slow rate estimate), but the other two are essentially modern.

    African mtDNA has three main lineages — L1, L2 and L3 — which have an estimated coalescence date of 126,000–165,000 yr BP. The L1 lineage is the most ancient and is present in the San population from South Africa and the Biaka Pygmies from the Central African Republic, which are two of the most genetically divergent populations in Africa18. L2 and L3 diverged from L1 ~60,000–103,000 yr BP. The L2 lineage is present in Mbuti Pygmies from the Democratic Republic of the Congo and in west African Bantu-speaking populations. The L3 lineage is widely dispersed throughout east Africa but is rare elsewhere in sub-Saharan Africa. Phylogenetic analysis indicates that the L3 haplogroup is the precursor of non-African mtDNA haplotypes and that a subset of this lineage (L3a) travelled out of Africa in the ancestors of modern Eurasians ~60,000–80,000 yr BP. The L3a lineage also occurs at a high frequency in Ethiopian mtDNA40, which supports the proposal that modern humans migrated out of Africa through Ethiopia.

    Tishkoff, S.A., & S.M. Williams. (2002). Genetic analysis of African populations: human evolution and complex disease, Nature Reviews – Genetics, 3, 611-621.

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  98. @BB753
    Pardon the pun but as population booms in Africa, they're going to get the short end of the stick.
    They'll be driven out of their forests and homes, massacred and hunted for their meat by the Bantus. Wait, that's already happened.
    We're only a few decades away from a pygmycide, large scale.

    This comment thread is turning into a #shortlivesmatter fest. Not that it bothers me.

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  99. @Jus' Sayin'...
    This may no longer be the right question. There is a lot of natural mating going on among dogs, coyotes, and wolves. And the offspring are not only viable but fertile. There has also been evidence of mating between polar bears and grizzly bears that has produced hybrid offspring..

    I consider dogs and wolves to be part of the same species, so I also consider pygmies to be part of the same species I belong to.

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  100. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Stan d Mute

    Can pygmies interbreed with other humans?
     
    Another, equally interesting, question is whether the miscarriage rate is higher for hybrids of differing sub-species and which sub-species are least reproductively compatible. Can Eskimo reproduce with African Pygmies? Do Eskimo/Pygmy hybrids self terminate more often than Bantu/Nordic hybrids? Is there a large enough hybrid population to know if there are common pathologies unique to hybrids?

    But of course just asking these basic questions is a thought crime so I'm highly doubtful any scientific answers will be found.

    It’s not a thought crime. White male explorers and colonial types have been having children with women of different races for at least a few hundred years now.

    It seems that most of the time they can produce a lot of children, whether the women in question are Black, Native North American, Native South American, or Australoid.

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  101. dk says:

    SEMI-RELATED: A Killing Tests India’s Protection of an Aboriginal Culture

    A welfare officer reported a Jarawas man for the murder of the mixed race infant child of Jarawas woman and an unknown non-Jarawas father, but he hasn’t been arrested yet. If he was arrested, he would be the very first Jarawas person to be arrested for murder by India. The story has unusually blunt discussions of racial purity and race mixing, cultural preservation and (non)-intervention, state paternalism vs. individual choice, etc.

    Note: This group of Andamanese Islanders are different from the Sentinelese, who are genuinely isolated by the Indian government. The article makes clear that the Jarawas have regular, if highly restricted, contact with outsiders that live on the same island.

    See also Razib Khan’s discussion of the story.

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  102. @AndrewR
    Not defending militant gay supremacy but your comparison is obscene. Ameeican leftists have no power in Iran. They have much power in the US. You might as well criticize Iranians for being more concerned over what consenting adults do in private than over the blatant public degeneracy of gay pride parades in the US.

    What marwan (85.) said.

    Also, many of the same people and groups that are not making a big deal out of gay oppression abroad because it’s out of the country, we don’t have any direct power there, etc. had no problem making a big deal of apartheid in South Africa. There was a MORAL OBLIGATION to do whatever was necessary to end it.

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    • Replies: @BB753
    What kind of moral obligation to end apartheid, and why?
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  103. @Roger Sweeny
    What marwan (85.) said.

    Also, many of the same people and groups that are not making a big deal out of gay oppression abroad because it's out of the country, we don't have any direct power there, etc. had no problem making a big deal of apartheid in South Africa. There was a MORAL OBLIGATION to do whatever was necessary to end it.

    What kind of moral obligation to end apartheid, and why?

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  104. […] Steve Sailer has written on the difficulty of defining discrete “species” and proposed that classification of the Pygmies as a separate endangered species could help protect them from […]

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