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What Happened to Turkey?

I admit I bring up Turkey a lot, in part because it’s one of the few foreign countries I’ve been to in this century. But also because it’s a country that from the 1920s onward made extraordinary efforts to yank itself onto the path of modernity, which at the time was assumed to be nationalism and ethnic homogeneity. In these postmodern times, we tend to assume that that was all a mistake and that the future will look a lot like the good old days of the highly diverse Ottoman Empire.

But it’s not clear that Turkey is working out quite as hoped.

From the NYT:

Whatever Happened to the ‘Turkish Model’?
Mustafa Akyol

I had lunch with this guy, Mustafa Akyol, in Bodrum at Hans-Hermann Hoppe’s shindig in 2009, when Turkey was at its apogee. He’s a good guy.

ISTANBUL — About five years ago, everyone was talking about the “Turkish model.” People in the West and in the Muslim world held up Turkey as a shining example of the compatibility of Islam and democracy. Recep Tayyip Erdogan, who was then prime minister and is now president, was praised as a reformist who was making his country freer, wealthier and more peaceful.

These days, I think back on those times with nostalgia and regret. The rhetoric of liberal opening has given way to authoritarianism, the peace process with the Kurdish nationalists has fallen apart, press freedoms are diminishing and terrorist attacks are on the rise.

What went wrong? Erdoganists — yes, some of them call themselves that — have a simple answer: a conspiracy.

I’ve been telling you about the Turkish infatuation with conspiracy theorizing. Having the most complicated conspiracy theory makes you the Smartest Guy in the Room in Turkey.

When Mr. Erdogan made Turkey too powerful and independent, nefarious cabals in the West and their treacherous “agents” at home started a campaign to tarnish Turkey’s democracy. Little do they realize, of course, that this conspiracy-obsessed propaganda, the self-righteousness it reflects and the hatred it fuels are part of the problem.

In Turkey, though, conspiracy theorizing doesn’t necessarily make you wrong.

In 2009, for example, Akyol, having an Anglo-Saxon mindset, disliked the weird Turkish secularist/militarist mindset.

But he didn’t publicly foresee that Erdogan’s Muslimist mindset would soon go off the rails.

But, then again, who knew?

… Turkey’s secularists see an Islamist conspiracy behind this: The A.K.P had hidden its “true colors” until the right time. But I think that the party’s changes involved less planning — and fewer principles. The A.K.P. adopted a liberal discourse out of mere necessity, without giving it much thought or going through a real ideological transformation. Once the party grabbed power, its members were tempted, intoxicated and corrupted by it. The cadres and classes that now rally behind Mr. Erdogan have found wealth, prestige and glory for the first time in their lives. They seem determined not to lose them — regardless of what that means for Turkish democracy.

Erdogan is an example of the usefulness of term limits. The one investment guide I’ve read in the last decade made the point that when looking at countries, be wary of places where the boss is heading into his second decade in power. Leaders who are initially successful enough to win themselves multiple terms in power typically are guys whose skills are the right ones at the time they came to power; but, eventually, their predilections become the new set of problems that somebody else must overcome.

One theory that seems plausible is that Turkey was dragged down by the Arab Spring next door in Syria. As a Turk, Erdogan would have been better off lying low, but he got puffed up by the prospect of making himself Moral Leader of the Muslim World and denounced the Assad regime, when he would have been better off avoiding the Middle Eastern tarpit altogether.

But Chancellor Merkel seems to be intent upon handing Erdogan a weird victory …

 
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  1. Despite being a sworn enemy of Iran’s “Shi’ite Axis”, Erdogan is one of the most hated foreign leaders in Israel. I wish he’d do something cool like invade Syria, but he can’t even do that. He’s just kind of there.

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  2. anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    Once the party grabbed power, its members were tempted, intoxicated and corrupted by it. The cadres and classes that now rally behind Mr. Erdogan have found wealth, prestige and glory for the first time in their lives. They seem determined not to lose them

    Sounds like the US doesn’t it? Constitution, founding fathers, all outdated impediments to wealth and power.

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  3. I think you’re kidding abt “who could have known”?

    There was the Turkish army, Geert Wilders, Israel, dozens of “islamophobic” activists, etc. for starters. Also, many Turkish secularist intellectuals & national rivals warned for years and years.

    And, for those who wanted to listen, Erdogan was always fairly honest abt both his Ottoman revivalist and Islamist ambitions.

    The Turkish secular example was a pipe dream. Only viable for Istanbul & the formerly Greek coastal areas. In Euro countries w/ many Turkish migrants hardly anybody ever thought of Turks as modernist minded.

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    • Agree: Nico, Pseudonymic Handle
    • Replies: @Glossy
    The Turkish secular example was a pipe dream. Only viable for Istanbul & the formerly Greek coastal areas.

    I thought the Greeks were sent to Greece a hundred years ago. I assumed that those coastal areas were then re-populated with random Turks from the Anatolian hinterland. This isn't so?
  4. This fits what I know. I would add one thing to “what happened to Turkey?” And that is that Western governments considered the secular, Kemalist, post-1920 model to be too militaristic. Erdogan was shrewd enough to understand that the EU and the US would stand by and even applaud as he purged the Kemalist generals. That’s important because the military functioned as the fourth branch of government in the balance of powers–having the duty to intervene should the secular state be threatened by one of the other branches. Now that he controls the military, there is nothing to stop him.

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  5. “But Chancellor Merkel seems to be intent upon handing Erdogan a weird victory …”

    The deal between the EU and Turkey to control the migrant influx was mainly forged by the EU negotiating with the now resigned prime minister Ahmet Davutoglu. With him out of the way, I would expect Erdogan to put increasing pressure and demand on the EU for membership in exchange for “controlling” the migrant influx. I think the EU will try to extend the deal to at least the end of June after the Brexit vote. Erdogan is a hot head though, so if the EU won’t play ball and give in to his demands, expect the deal to end abruptly.

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  6. Erdogan is an example of the usefulness of term limits.

    He’s an example of the usefulness of military coups.

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  7. Forced secularization always unravels in a Muslim country?

    Kemalist secularism was most successful among the urban elite in Istanbul but barely permeated the more conservative Anatolia. It probably reflected the secularist ambitions of the more cosmopolitan elite of the late Ottoman empire. AKP’s base is completely removed from this – in the conservative rural Anatolian bourgeoisie that became more powerful as Turkey became more prosperous. That, and the fact that the military’s purges of the leftists movements of the 70s meant that there was a vacuum among the working class and the urban working class and urban Islamists got on board and voted for the AKP. Liberals (like Aykol) were also excited at the prospect of the AKP being this genuinely bourgeoisie movement that was independent of military patronage and didn’t owe anything to the army so they supported it in the hopes that it would take on the authoritarian state. Which it did – but then it just became the authoritarian state, except without the Kemalist doctrine.

    Turks have always been a bunch of scarily rabid nationalists. I don’t think they can help it, it’s just their nature.

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  8. My first time to Turkey was last August – since then I visited multiple times (and even stayed in Ist) as we were planning to get married in Istanbul. In that period (August-April) Turkey went from bad to worse – in the end we switched the wedding venue to a far more sensible location. To broadly generalise the Turks are arrogant, attractive and aggressive; ironically it’s the same reputation they have in Iran (Persian believe that among the local Iranian Turks).

    It was such a contrast going back to Iran last month after 25years, Persians are an order of magnitude more polite and forthcoming than the Turks. Well it does make sense since the last millennia of the core Muslim world has only had Turks, Kurds (Safavids/Saladin) & Berber dynasties; the Perso-Arabs sort of faded into the cultural sphere.

    To get back on point Turkey is painfully returning back to the Ottoman model and to its Anatolian roots. I have to say it’s so disconcerting hearing the Turkish language (which was shorn of its Perso-Arabic veneer by Ataturk) still retain the core Islamic vocabulary (even though they are radically different languages, knowing Persian or Arabic lets you figure out alot of basic Turkish words – Mehraba, Tashkoglu) but written in the Latin Alphabet.

    Finally I have to say that Iran really exceeded my expectation whereas Turkey in the last year will trampled on my expectations (and the sad thing is that Istanbul/Anatolia is a land like no other). In the sense that also mirrors the geopolitical ascendancy of Iran over Turkey in the past decade.

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    • Replies: @WGG
    Turks are the most hospitable and friendly people around so long as they are selling something... and you are buying. They are often compared to Orthodox Jews in this way, though I wouldn't let them hear you say it out loud.

    Iran, however, is known among the hardcore travelistas to *actually* be the friendliest place on earth. They seem a very dignified people. Certainly the Persians I have met in the West have been top notch. I give much credit to the otherwise sleezy Obama administration for dealing reasonably with Iran instead of letting certain histrionic forces prevail. In the debate of the lesser of two evils, Sunni or Shia, I think it is becoming obvious that Shia is the lesser of the evils. Maybe it is because they are so outnumbered and they are trying to ingratiate other allies, but I favor letting the Shia hold the whip over the rest of the Middle East. Knock the Saudis off their economic perch, get firm with Israel to prevent them starting any new wars, and let the Iranians be the new hall monitor. I probably don't know enough about it (does anyone?) so I easily concede I could be wrong. Just an idea.

    Anyway, here is an interesting video from an English fellow who loves to travel on his "motorbike" and fell in love with Iran.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2LEgowbzSc
    , @zit
    turks are 'atractive'??
    who knew?
    , @Anonymous
    "It was such a contrast going back to Iran last month after 25years, Persians are an order of magnitude more polite and forthcoming than the Turks."

    Don't get this impression of Turks v Persians in the West.
  9. I am by no means an expert on Turkey, but from what I’ve heard it’s divided, quite sharply into good and bad parts. Good Turkey consists of the more westernized secular parts which historically had more Greek and other European influence: Istanbul, the coastal regions, the part of the country that’s physically in Europe, and to some extent Ankara. Bad Turkey, which is more Islamic and generally less prosperous, is basically the non-coastal parts of Anatolia.

    Erdogan represents Bad Turkey.

    Peter

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  10. “No stronger retrograde force (Islam) exists in the world. “. W Churchill-1899

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  11. I’ll only add some of what I’ve been told and a little perspective…

    I’m distantly related by marriage to a woman who was a Turkish politician
    when Bulent Ecevit was prime minister. She is, as you might expect, a thoroughly secular westernized Muslim; she and others like her lost out when Islamists rose to power.
    She despises Erdogan, but I couldn’t tell you when this began.
    She’s very gracious, warm, and generous in that Turkish way. And very wealthy. She and her family’s treatment of my brother’s in-laws is fascinating to me. Lots of stories. Anyway…

    Her words: Erdogan wants to recreate the Ottoman Empire.

    What’s funny is that she, her sister (and mother of my in-law) and sundry relatives often fly back and forth between Turkey and the U.S. and would be affected by a putative Trump ban on Muslims. Yet, after initial misgivings, her niece and my “Muslim” in-law, attended a Trump rally with her husband and babies for the spectacle and voted for him.

    They hate the Islamists so very, very much.

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  12. Turkey’s secularists see an Islamist conspiracy behind this: The A.K.P had hidden its “true colors” until the right time. But I think that the party’s changes involved less planning — and fewer principles. The A.K.P. adopted a liberal discourse out of mere necessity, without giving it much thought or going through a real ideological transformation. Once the party grabbed power, its members were tempted, intoxicated and corrupted by it. The cadres and classes that now rally behind Mr. Erdogan have found wealth, prestige and glory for the first time in their lives. They seem determined not to lose them — regardless of what that means for Turkish democracy.

    Why do anti-conspiracy theory theories always suck so much? The AKP didn’t lie about being liberals until the right time. No, what they did was say they were liberals because that seemed to work to get them into power, but then, after they were in power, they dropped the liberal stuff because they wanted to stay in power.

    How is this even different from the “conspiracy theory,” observationally? Obviously, it’s not. In fact, if you are into critical thinking at all, you could read the quoted paragraph as an enthusiastic endorsement of the “conspiracy theory” it is ostensibly rejecting.

    The only difference is that it magically absolves people from moral approbrium for their actions.

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  13. One factor is the higher Kurdish birthrates. Kurds are rural, poorer, more Islamic. In contrast to the Turks who live close to the European mainland, who trend secularized and cosmopolitan.
    Mark Steyn layed it all out:

    http://www.steynonline.com/6520/young-turks
    A trickle of “Who lost Turkey?” stories had begun appearing in the American conservative press, and I would have joined them – except that I knew the answer. This is from my National Review column of April 16th 2007:

    Since the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, there have been two Turkeys — the Turks of Rumelia, or European Turkey, and the Turks of Anatolia, or Asia Minor. Kemal Atatürk was from Rumelia and so were most of his supporters, and they imposed the modern Turkish Republic on a somewhat reluctant Anatolia, where Atatürk’s distinction between the state and Islam was never accepted. In its 80-year history, the population has increased from 14 million to 70 million, but the vast bulk of that population growth has come from Anatolia, whose population has migrated from the rural hinterland to overwhelm the once solidly Kemalist cities.

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    • Replies: @Hepp

    One factor is the higher Kurdish birthrates. Kurds are rural, poorer, more Islamic.

     

    If Kurds are so Islamic, how come we're always hearing about how they're the secular ones in Iraq and they've got all these women fighters? I thought Kurds were moderate Muslims in relation to Arabs.
  14. An important factor that is left unstated is the demographic issues in Turkey. Over the last few decades the more secularised and Westernised (Both culturally and genetically) Western Anatolians have been increasingly displaced by rural migrants from Eastern Anatolia. (Both Turkish and Kurdish)

    The AKP is not so much the Islamist party as they are the rural peasantry party. Their logo is even a light bulb in reference to rural electrification that was so important in their early days. They are the Islamist party because that is what the rural East Anatolian peasantry want, not the other way around.

    It’s very similar how when the Irish gained a big enough demographic presence in some US cities that they began to hold St. Patrick’s Day parades. It’s a common pattern in history, it’s just that Turkey is the only place in the modern world where it is so incredibly stark. When a population whose traditions are looked down upon gain education and confidence they no longer feel shame and instead feel emboldened in them. Hell ‘Catholic’ Ireland with a big C was only really a construct of the decades after independence when it was seen as part of Irish identity and embraced to distance Ireland from Britain. Eventually it was jettisoned as Ireland converged culturally with the rest of Western Europe.

    It’s like that line from ‘A Young Doctor’s Notebook’ about the urbane doctor encountering distant rural peasants for the first time and commenting about how he was speaking across centuries.

    The other factor is the demographic timebomb of the Kurdish population which is increasing faster than the Turkish population and threatens to become the majority at some point around mid-century. This is obviously an ethnic tension most pertinent in the East Anatolian heartlands of the AKP. Though what quite the avowed Turkish nationalist Erdogan hopes to achieve by attempting to forestall Kurdish independence is unclear. Does he hope a campaign of ethnic cleansing might be engaged in the future? If it were me I’d let the Kurds create a state (That is never likely to be a military threat to Turkey) so you can displace them somewhere if you feel an ethnic civil war is on the cards, but given his views on the Armenian ‘Accident’, maybe he does think mass killings are preferable to expulsion.

    Will it hold? I don’t know, but Turkey won’t likely ever be a good fit with the rest of Europe.

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  15. I’ve been telling you about the Turkish infatuation with conspiracy theorizing. Having the most complicated conspiracy theory makes you the Smartest Guy in the Room in Turkey

    And not just Turkish. For those from other cultures who have experienced it, conspiracy theories are a staple of news and political analysis in the rest of the Muslim world, too. I have heard otherwise hardheaded Pakistani intellectuals collapse into the most rank paranoid explanations when explaining straightforward news items regarding US or Indian foreign policy. Any demurral on my part was met with the kind-eyed pity reserved for chronic saps and born simpletons.

    This has been noted by others. Regardless of where you stand on his politics, it is worth reading Roger Cohen at the New York Times on the topic. Indeed, the phenomenon appears well known enough that there is a Wikipedia entry on Arab conspiracy mindedness (and yes, I know the Turks are not Arabs.)

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/21/opinion/21iht-edcohen21.html?_r=0

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theories_in_the_Arab_world

    In fairness, of course, one should note Richard Hofstadter’s classic essay on a parallel streak in American political discourse.

    http://harpers.org/archive/1964/11/the-paranoid-style-in-american-politics/

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  16. OT but Politico pretends the last 8 months never happened:

    http://www.politico.com/story/2016/05/trump-latinos-mccain-222810

    This is basic bitch reasoning you might see in 2012, but to see it in 2016 after this primary season is amazing. Even has MARCO RUBIO being touted for his Hispanic appeal.

    What the hell man.

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  17. @Zachary Latif
    My first time to Turkey was last August - since then I visited multiple times (and even stayed in Ist) as we were planning to get married in Istanbul. In that period (August-April) Turkey went from bad to worse - in the end we switched the wedding venue to a far more sensible location. To broadly generalise the Turks are arrogant, attractive and aggressive; ironically it's the same reputation they have in Iran (Persian believe that among the local Iranian Turks).

    It was such a contrast going back to Iran last month after 25years, Persians are an order of magnitude more polite and forthcoming than the Turks. Well it does make sense since the last millennia of the core Muslim world has only had Turks, Kurds (Safavids/Saladin) & Berber dynasties; the Perso-Arabs sort of faded into the cultural sphere.

    To get back on point Turkey is painfully returning back to the Ottoman model and to its Anatolian roots. I have to say it's so disconcerting hearing the Turkish language (which was shorn of its Perso-Arabic veneer by Ataturk) still retain the core Islamic vocabulary (even though they are radically different languages, knowing Persian or Arabic lets you figure out alot of basic Turkish words - Mehraba, Tashkoglu) but written in the Latin Alphabet.

    Finally I have to say that Iran really exceeded my expectation whereas Turkey in the last year will trampled on my expectations (and the sad thing is that Istanbul/Anatolia is a land like no other). In the sense that also mirrors the geopolitical ascendancy of Iran over Turkey in the past decade.

    Turks are the most hospitable and friendly people around so long as they are selling something… and you are buying. They are often compared to Orthodox Jews in this way, though I wouldn’t let them hear you say it out loud.

    Iran, however, is known among the hardcore travelistas to *actually* be the friendliest place on earth. They seem a very dignified people. Certainly the Persians I have met in the West have been top notch. I give much credit to the otherwise sleezy Obama administration for dealing reasonably with Iran instead of letting certain histrionic forces prevail. In the debate of the lesser of two evils, Sunni or Shia, I think it is becoming obvious that Shia is the lesser of the evils. Maybe it is because they are so outnumbered and they are trying to ingratiate other allies, but I favor letting the Shia hold the whip over the rest of the Middle East. Knock the Saudis off their economic perch, get firm with Israel to prevent them starting any new wars, and let the Iranians be the new hall monitor. I probably don’t know enough about it (does anyone?) so I easily concede I could be wrong. Just an idea.

    Anyway, here is an interesting video from an English fellow who loves to travel on his “motorbike” and fell in love with Iran.

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    • Replies: @Vendetta
    I've had the same idea.
    , @Charles Erwin Wilson
    The problem is that there is no way to run a pilot project on your idea. The law of unintended consequences is a harsh mistress.
  18. O/T: Sigmund Freud as the google doodle? Portrayed as an iceberg? Maybe next they’ll have a phrenologist or a witch doctor. Or maybe they’re just trying to give dead white males a bad name.

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  19. @Zachary Latif
    My first time to Turkey was last August - since then I visited multiple times (and even stayed in Ist) as we were planning to get married in Istanbul. In that period (August-April) Turkey went from bad to worse - in the end we switched the wedding venue to a far more sensible location. To broadly generalise the Turks are arrogant, attractive and aggressive; ironically it's the same reputation they have in Iran (Persian believe that among the local Iranian Turks).

    It was such a contrast going back to Iran last month after 25years, Persians are an order of magnitude more polite and forthcoming than the Turks. Well it does make sense since the last millennia of the core Muslim world has only had Turks, Kurds (Safavids/Saladin) & Berber dynasties; the Perso-Arabs sort of faded into the cultural sphere.

    To get back on point Turkey is painfully returning back to the Ottoman model and to its Anatolian roots. I have to say it's so disconcerting hearing the Turkish language (which was shorn of its Perso-Arabic veneer by Ataturk) still retain the core Islamic vocabulary (even though they are radically different languages, knowing Persian or Arabic lets you figure out alot of basic Turkish words - Mehraba, Tashkoglu) but written in the Latin Alphabet.

    Finally I have to say that Iran really exceeded my expectation whereas Turkey in the last year will trampled on my expectations (and the sad thing is that Istanbul/Anatolia is a land like no other). In the sense that also mirrors the geopolitical ascendancy of Iran over Turkey in the past decade.

    turks are ‘atractive’??
    who knew?

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  20. What happened in Turkey was that the countryside won. Like a lot of countries (US), Turkey has a sophisticated modern urban population, which tends to be secular/non-religious and a large backcountry where the people are much more conservative and religious. The city dwellers forgot to have kids and the country dwellers had lots, so the country changed from being run by secular Westernizers to being run by religious conservatives.

    Why hasn’t this happened in the US?

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    • Replies: @Captain nascimento
    This

    I have many Arab Christian friends, who say same thing , that the Anatolian peasants are the audience Erdogan is playing to. Forget the incident particulars but a few years ago Turkey had a high profile human rights dust up with Israel. My friends insisted this was huge, not in and of itself but the symbolism behind it, that the paradigm of warm Israeli Turkish relations ruptured. Mideast types (not just Turks Steve) I find are all conspiracy aficionados for most part (Israelis and Lebanese included).

    Personally I find Erdogan fooling western elites to be quite plausible given how thoroughly and utterly scammed the Bush administration was by Shiite sock puppet Ahmad Chalabi (remember him?).

    Question: So what will the realistic ramifications of the Turkey EU visa deal be ? Seems colossally stupid (merkel and eurocrats have been on a roll). Is this just a Turkish ploy to (as Fidel Castro said ) flush the Anatolian toilet bowl into Sweden, Germany and France? Effectively replacing Afghan, Syrian and north African mus/hood-lums with Turks.
    , @RamonaQ
    great point.

    I have a hunch that the US is doomed precisely because it's unable to self-correct this imbalance between the dominance of the urban elite and a more reactionary rural conservatism. Before the civil war, the Antebellum South was the obvious counterweight to the utopian projects of the urban elite. Urban conservatism tends to be hopeless and the best it can hope for is to latch onto some truly conservative movement that originates from outside the big cities. That's actually exactly what happened with the urban Islamists. They just latched onto the movement that was based in rural Anatolia and rode the wave into the cities.

    Honestly, looking at Turkey purely from the perspective of an average, religiously conservative Turk, I don't see why the AKP is so bad. It isn't a nice thing for outsiders to see a secular country becoming conservative again and Erdogan really needs to stop acting like an hot-head when it comes to foreign policy. But other than that, who cares? That's obviously what most people want so why should the utopian project imagined by the post-Ottoman secular elite take priority?

    , @Marcus
    Also the more primitive Kurdish population is growing very rapidly compared to the rest of the country.
    , @27 year old
    Because our sophisticated urban population echoes, and they brought in tens of millions of immigrants to make up for their lack of kids.
    , @Marcus

    Why hasn’t this happened in the US?
     
    a) Our countryside is vulnerable to feminism and leftist education, unlike rural Muslim Turks or Kurds. Also young people move to cities in huge numbers and absorb that lifestyle b) our leftists have chosen to elect a new people; although perhaps Erdogan is thinking this too: has he been aggressive partly because he wants an influx of relatively primitive uneducated populations from Syria, Iraq, etc. to solidify his demographic advantage?
    , @Jack Hanson
    The Ivy League pipeline filters out most of the rural children. Those that do make it through are quickly suborned into toeing the line.
    , @peterike

    The city dwellers forgot to have kids and the country dwellers had lots, so the country changed from being run by secular Westernizers to being run by religious conservatives. Why hasn’t this happened in the US?

     

    Because America has vast suburbs where the politics transition from city Progressive to rural conservative. Plus, the importation of countless millions of Dem voters. Had Turkey been importing millions of secularists things might be different.
    , @Formerly CARealist
    public schools.
    , @matt
    Turkey has gone through periods of military dictatorship while remaining in NATO and the OECD. Similarly, Greece under the junta and Portugal under Salazar were both members of NATO and the OECD in good standing.
    , @RadicalCenter
    Two reasons come to mind:

    (1) Especially in the past fifty years, we have foolishly imported tens of millions of Third World immigrants, mainly Mexicans, both illegally and "legally." Most of them have lower levels of education, fewer marketable skills, and cultural mores and expectations that are incompatible with our traditional Western Anglo/European ones.

    Between them and their many children and now grandchildren, they out-vote actual core-stock Euro-Americans in an increasing number of jurisdictions, even with relatively more normal, productive, common-sense, patriotic, religious, and nationalist white Americans having lots of children in the outer-suburban / exurban and rural areas.

    As far as I know, Turkey hasn't attracted a comparably massive number of hostile or incompatible immigrants.

    (2) Perhaps the pressure of the mass media and government-school indoctrination is stronger here than Turkey, in a direction that discourages and stigmatizes pride, identity, and traditional family values and goals among white children. That tends to lead to white people delaying or never making the commitment to monogamous marriage, having fewer children, being sexually confused, and being afraid to stand up for their own people and interests while every other race here in the formerly UNITED States does so unapologetically.

    , @Bill
    Our current elite has been good at co-opting key slices of rival groups. Affirmative Action skims the talented tenth off of blacks, largely segregates them, gives them satisying busywork to do, and gives them a powerful financial and status stake in the status quo.

    For whites, it's the ideology of secular meritocracy which does it. Whether it's the kind of fast-talking, very bright scumbag who goes to Wall St or the kind of IQ 135 sperg who designs precision guided munitions or does production engineering in some Intel fab, our elite offers them both money and an ideology producing a status hierarchy in which they are superior to their relatives back in Des Moines. Just read the hbd spergs fantasizing about our coming miscegenated Jew-Asian-smart white elite to see it. Or read the same spergs holding forth, in the teeth of the evidence, on the superior intellect and scholarship of gnu atheists. Ideas this dumb don't just happen. They are carefully inculcated via a multi-pronged propaganda ministry.

    Regarding whites, you could say the same thing another way. The US is, in fact, run by religious conservatives. Our state religion is Freemasonry (though the Multicult is a rising rival). Americans get angry when the tenets of secular meritocracy are violated. It is unjust, evil, ritually impure when someone is admitted, hired, promoted, feted on the basis of their ancestry instead of on the basis of their merit. They, at most, smile ruefully at people working on Sunday. This is bizarre in historical context unless you recognize its religious character.

    The weakness of the system is regression to the mean. Dad wants his sons to be high status like he is. Regression to the mean means that either Dad doesn't get what he wants (on average) or that the system has to get less meritocratic as it goes along. Just what do you do with Jesse Jackson Jr? Just what do you do with Bill Kristol? Just what do you do with all the noodle-armed hipsters named Dylan living off Dad's upper management largess?

    It's a hard question. If you give in to Dad and promote his son, then the machine you've carefully built starts to clank and sputter. Worse, the people who should be manning it are still back in Des Moines getting up to who knows what. On the other hand, if you don't give in to Dad, he might start to notice that this whole globalist secular meritocracy deal isn't all that great.
  21. The Turkish economy puzzles me. There is little on the internet, yet it has a per capita income of $10,000 and, apparently, much more industrial output than any other Muslim Middle-Eastern country. (Not sure it that includes Iran.) How much is this due to foreign direct investment? Automobiles, for example — is it like Mexico in that respect, building Japanese, European, and American brands? Also, how integrated is it into NATO? Would it be allowed to stay in NATO and the OECD if it strays too far from democracy?

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    • Replies: @Jack D
    Yes, Turkey has foreign auto plants. The little Ford Transit vans that they sell in the US were brought in from Turkey for a while (as an aside, due to the "chicken tax" on imported trucks, they brought them in as passenger vans and then when they got to the port they would tear out the seats) and those plants export to Europe a lot. Turkey also does stuff like large home appliances now .

    The top exports of Turkey are Cars ($7.95B), Vehicle Parts ($4.73B), Raw Iron Bars ($4.28B), Delivery Trucks ($4.15B) and Jewellery ($4.06B)

    http://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/country/tur/

    They also import cars, so that sector is somewhat of a wash, like the US /Canada auto trade.

    As for NATO membership, democracy is not necessarily a prerequisite. When Greece was ruled by a military junta, it remained in NATO. Of course that was at the height of the Cold War and in less PC times. Turkey has been a full NATO member since 1952 and is as integrated into NATO as any other member state.
    , @Matra
    This page has interesting stats about its exports. Vehicles are #1 making up over 12% of their world exports.

    Their most famous export, without a doubt, is TV productions. Turkish soap operas are everywhere.

    I noticed a few years ago that in Canada all the Tuborg beer there is actually brewed in Turkey, not Denmark. It's probably the same in the US.

    Beer is unIslamic and based on what I've seen of their soaps they might be too. Wonder what Erdogan thinks of those.

    , @anon

    How much is this due to foreign direct investment?
     
    Most to almost all. It is or was one of the favored off-shoring hubs cos close to EU.
  22. OT: Is it possible to imagine a future where diversity quotas have to take into account each group’s performance on tests (etc)? So eg on crime shows, you’d explicitly agree that some racial groups are less (or more) qualified to be forensic specialists, and the diversity quota would set a more realistic target number? And ethnic group leaders would have to look for ways to raise those test scores?

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  23. The golden age of Turkish democracy, meaning when you had a coup every decade or so if the voters didn’t do as told?

    The vast majority of Turks want Islam to be part of their government, as is their right. Their TFR is down to 2.06, so I think secularism and modernity have done enough as is.

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  24. @Jack D
    What happened in Turkey was that the countryside won. Like a lot of countries (US), Turkey has a sophisticated modern urban population, which tends to be secular/non-religious and a large backcountry where the people are much more conservative and religious. The city dwellers forgot to have kids and the country dwellers had lots, so the country changed from being run by secular Westernizers to being run by religious conservatives.

    Why hasn't this happened in the US?

    This

    I have many Arab Christian friends, who say same thing , that the Anatolian peasants are the audience Erdogan is playing to. Forget the incident particulars but a few years ago Turkey had a high profile human rights dust up with Israel. My friends insisted this was huge, not in and of itself but the symbolism behind it, that the paradigm of warm Israeli Turkish relations ruptured. Mideast types (not just Turks Steve) I find are all conspiracy aficionados for most part (Israelis and Lebanese included).

    Personally I find Erdogan fooling western elites to be quite plausible given how thoroughly and utterly scammed the Bush administration was by Shiite sock puppet Ahmad Chalabi (remember him?).

    Question: So what will the realistic ramifications of the Turkey EU visa deal be ? Seems colossally stupid (merkel and eurocrats have been on a roll). Is this just a Turkish ploy to (as Fidel Castro said ) flush the Anatolian toilet bowl into Sweden, Germany and France? Effectively replacing Afghan, Syrian and north African mus/hood-lums with Turks.

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  25. @Jack D
    What happened in Turkey was that the countryside won. Like a lot of countries (US), Turkey has a sophisticated modern urban population, which tends to be secular/non-religious and a large backcountry where the people are much more conservative and religious. The city dwellers forgot to have kids and the country dwellers had lots, so the country changed from being run by secular Westernizers to being run by religious conservatives.

    Why hasn't this happened in the US?

    great point.

    I have a hunch that the US is doomed precisely because it’s unable to self-correct this imbalance between the dominance of the urban elite and a more reactionary rural conservatism. Before the civil war, the Antebellum South was the obvious counterweight to the utopian projects of the urban elite. Urban conservatism tends to be hopeless and the best it can hope for is to latch onto some truly conservative movement that originates from outside the big cities. That’s actually exactly what happened with the urban Islamists. They just latched onto the movement that was based in rural Anatolia and rode the wave into the cities.

    Honestly, looking at Turkey purely from the perspective of an average, religiously conservative Turk, I don’t see why the AKP is so bad. It isn’t a nice thing for outsiders to see a secular country becoming conservative again and Erdogan really needs to stop acting like an hot-head when it comes to foreign policy. But other than that, who cares? That’s obviously what most people want so why should the utopian project imagined by the post-Ottoman secular elite take priority?

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  26. @Jack D
    What happened in Turkey was that the countryside won. Like a lot of countries (US), Turkey has a sophisticated modern urban population, which tends to be secular/non-religious and a large backcountry where the people are much more conservative and religious. The city dwellers forgot to have kids and the country dwellers had lots, so the country changed from being run by secular Westernizers to being run by religious conservatives.

    Why hasn't this happened in the US?

    Also the more primitive Kurdish population is growing very rapidly compared to the rest of the country.

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  27. Priss Factor [AKA "Polly Perkins"] says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    If the Erd Mentality calls for more autocracy, controls, and religion, then Erdy is following the neo-western model.

    The West restricts free speech. It has more regulations on behavior. And it promotes the religion(yes, it is a religion) of homomania. Gayria rules the West. It’s wworse than Sharia.

    And if Erdy messes with other nations, he is following the US lead. Look at Libya.

    Revenge of the Erd is based on the neo-western template.

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  28. @Jack D
    What happened in Turkey was that the countryside won. Like a lot of countries (US), Turkey has a sophisticated modern urban population, which tends to be secular/non-religious and a large backcountry where the people are much more conservative and religious. The city dwellers forgot to have kids and the country dwellers had lots, so the country changed from being run by secular Westernizers to being run by religious conservatives.

    Why hasn't this happened in the US?

    Because our sophisticated urban population echoes, and they brought in tens of millions of immigrants to make up for their lack of kids.

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  29. @Jack D
    What happened in Turkey was that the countryside won. Like a lot of countries (US), Turkey has a sophisticated modern urban population, which tends to be secular/non-religious and a large backcountry where the people are much more conservative and religious. The city dwellers forgot to have kids and the country dwellers had lots, so the country changed from being run by secular Westernizers to being run by religious conservatives.

    Why hasn't this happened in the US?

    Why hasn’t this happened in the US?

    a) Our countryside is vulnerable to feminism and leftist education, unlike rural Muslim Turks or Kurds. Also young people move to cities in huge numbers and absorb that lifestyle b) our leftists have chosen to elect a new people; although perhaps Erdogan is thinking this too: has he been aggressive partly because he wants an influx of relatively primitive uneducated populations from Syria, Iraq, etc. to solidify his demographic advantage?

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  30. OT: Harvard soft-bans evil (white, mostly?) males from voluntarily associating.

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    • Replies: @UnlearnedElder
    I thought this comment made a lot of sense:

    To really irritate people, the men only clubs should let some women in, but not Harvard women.
     
    , @Jack D
    These clubs were always somewhat secretive - now they will probably become even more secretive and just not tell anyone who their members are. It's as if they are begging for white men to practice going underground. Czarist oppression was like a finishing school for Bolshevik revolutionaries.

    I'm sure the legal geniuses at Harvard have cleared this (or think that they have) and Harvard is a private university that doesn't have the same free speech limitations as publicly owned institutions, but it still doesn't smell right to me from a legal POV. They might win in the end but I could really see them getting dragged thru court on this in a way that would not make them look good.

    This is just the leftists of America taking a victory lap, celebrating with the football in the end zone, rubbing the face of white men in the dirt, etc. but have they REALLY won the game or are they declaring victory too soon?
  31. OT–bad news from Germany

    A study* by the German Institute for Economic Research:**

    New study: Germany’s middle class is shrinking

    The German middle class has become significantly smaller in recent decades. According to a new study between 1991-2013 the decrease was similar to the US.

    * Der Spiegel, readable google translation
    ** German quango with a Social Democrat/statist bent

    =======================================

    Broadsheet Die Welt reports:*

    Dramatic increase of damaged babies because crystal [meth]

    The number of newborns affected by crystal meth is increasing greatly, especially in Saxony.** In the university hospital of Dresden the number is particularly high with a 1000 percent increase since 2007.

    * google translation
    ** one of 16 German lands, borders on Czechia, a major European producer of chemical drugs (not dissing the Chechzs, just so you know)

    =======================================

    Bavarian Broadcasting, a public-service radio and tv broadcaster, reports:*

    Crystal Meth Babies in Bavaria**–The invisible Children

    In some regions of Bavaria crystal meth has become something of an outright woman’s drug, with fatal consequences, as pregnant women not only harm themselves with crystal meth, they also harm the unborn children.

    * google translation
    ** borders on Czechia, too

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  32. @Jack D
    What happened in Turkey was that the countryside won. Like a lot of countries (US), Turkey has a sophisticated modern urban population, which tends to be secular/non-religious and a large backcountry where the people are much more conservative and religious. The city dwellers forgot to have kids and the country dwellers had lots, so the country changed from being run by secular Westernizers to being run by religious conservatives.

    Why hasn't this happened in the US?

    The Ivy League pipeline filters out most of the rural children. Those that do make it through are quickly suborned into toeing the line.

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  33. @Jack D
    What happened in Turkey was that the countryside won. Like a lot of countries (US), Turkey has a sophisticated modern urban population, which tends to be secular/non-religious and a large backcountry where the people are much more conservative and religious. The city dwellers forgot to have kids and the country dwellers had lots, so the country changed from being run by secular Westernizers to being run by religious conservatives.

    Why hasn't this happened in the US?

    The city dwellers forgot to have kids and the country dwellers had lots, so the country changed from being run by secular Westernizers to being run by religious conservatives. Why hasn’t this happened in the US?

    Because America has vast suburbs where the politics transition from city Progressive to rural conservative. Plus, the importation of countless millions of Dem voters. Had Turkey been importing millions of secularists things might be different.

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  34. @Jack D
    What happened in Turkey was that the countryside won. Like a lot of countries (US), Turkey has a sophisticated modern urban population, which tends to be secular/non-religious and a large backcountry where the people are much more conservative and religious. The city dwellers forgot to have kids and the country dwellers had lots, so the country changed from being run by secular Westernizers to being run by religious conservatives.

    Why hasn't this happened in the US?

    public schools.

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  35. Every less intelligent race is prone to conspiracy theory thinking, which is just another word for magical thinking. Blacks love it and it’s very entertaining listening to a black man hold forth about the Illuminati.

    The idea that most occurrences can’t be ascribed to a single cause or any cause besides a chance combination usually unrelated variables takes a LOT of brainpower, hell even most whites never get there.

    This is something that in an ideal world would be taught to every diplomat dealing with Africans or Arabs.

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  36. Turkey is divided into three general zones, which are easily discerned on an election results map. The zone closest to Europe, along the coast, formerly Greek, vote against Erdogan but has the lowest birth rate in the country, below replacement. They are the past. Then there is central Anatolia, pro-Erdogan, with a falling birth rate but still a rate above the coastal zone region, and the most Islamic area of the country. They are the present. Then there is Eastern Anatolia, Kurdish, with, by far, the highest birth rate in the country. They are the future.

    Right now you see the Islamic present, the resentful peasants of Anatolia grown in numbers and in wealth. But they are going to lose the country.

    At current fertility rates, Turkish-speaking women will give birth to an average of less than two children during their reproductive years. The corresponding figure is four children for Kurdish women. It is only a matter of time.

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  37. One thing you might miss by being a tourist in turkey: despite Ataturk best efforts, it is not a homogeneous country but culturally/ethnically diverse. They did cleanse the country of Christians of course, but tried and failed to turn all others to Turks. In this context, Erdogan’s understanding of his country’s natural status as Muslim, Ottoman even, is not weird.

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  38. Erdogan is playing with fire here. Turkey has very high levels of external debt. It is highly reliant on portfolio flows (sales of stocks and bonds to overseas investors) as well as short term borrowing by banks. If investors get scared off and companies can no longer roll over their debts, the economy is going to crash.

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  39. But he didn’t publicly foresee that Erdogan’s Muslimist mindset would soon go off the rails.

    A lot of intelligent observers did, however, mindful that Erdogan’s AKP grew out of the ashes of a banned Islamic revival movement. Even back in the late 2000s plenty of us knew where everything was headed: the EU was demanding an end to the militarist authoritarian Deep State as a qualification to entry, and ironically Erdogan, the Islamist, was happy to oblige them, since gutting the only reliable guardians of Kemalism: Turkey had coups d’état about every 20 years or so following the abolition of the Caliphate whereupon the military overturned governments perceived as “too Islamic.” Now, nothing is stopping him from pursuing an Islamist agenda except the electorate, which as commenters here have noted and as history proves is adequately Muslim and disagreeable to be tempted to vote Sunni revivalists into power if and when they see fit. (Iran, at present, now has the mirror problem: an increasingly frustrated, conscious and repressed populace kept in check by a brutally clericalist military-police complex. This is why Iranians are so much more pleasant to be around. By the way, the fundamentalist Shia state is something of an oddity, as most of the major heretical mysticist/liberalizable Islamic movements have grown out of Shia Islam, while Salafism, Wahhabism and their predecessors are uniquely Sunni.)

    The bottom line is, if anyone took Erdogan for a salutary reformer, it wasn’t for lack of information.

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  40. @Jack D
    What happened in Turkey was that the countryside won. Like a lot of countries (US), Turkey has a sophisticated modern urban population, which tends to be secular/non-religious and a large backcountry where the people are much more conservative and religious. The city dwellers forgot to have kids and the country dwellers had lots, so the country changed from being run by secular Westernizers to being run by religious conservatives.

    Why hasn't this happened in the US?

    Turkey has gone through periods of military dictatorship while remaining in NATO and the OECD. Similarly, Greece under the junta and Portugal under Salazar were both members of NATO and the OECD in good standing.

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  41. @Luke Lea
    The Turkish economy puzzles me. There is little on the internet, yet it has a per capita income of $10,000 and, apparently, much more industrial output than any other Muslim Middle-Eastern country. (Not sure it that includes Iran.) How much is this due to foreign direct investment? Automobiles, for example -- is it like Mexico in that respect, building Japanese, European, and American brands? Also, how integrated is it into NATO? Would it be allowed to stay in NATO and the OECD if it strays too far from democracy?

    Yes, Turkey has foreign auto plants. The little Ford Transit vans that they sell in the US were brought in from Turkey for a while (as an aside, due to the “chicken tax” on imported trucks, they brought them in as passenger vans and then when they got to the port they would tear out the seats) and those plants export to Europe a lot. Turkey also does stuff like large home appliances now .

    The top exports of Turkey are Cars ($7.95B), Vehicle Parts ($4.73B), Raw Iron Bars ($4.28B), Delivery Trucks ($4.15B) and Jewellery ($4.06B)

    http://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/country/tur/

    They also import cars, so that sector is somewhat of a wash, like the US /Canada auto trade.

    As for NATO membership, democracy is not necessarily a prerequisite. When Greece was ruled by a military junta, it remained in NATO. Of course that was at the height of the Cold War and in less PC times. Turkey has been a full NATO member since 1952 and is as integrated into NATO as any other member state.

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  42. “The one investment guide I’ve read in the last decade made the point that when looking at countries, be wary of places where the boss is heading into his second decade in power.”

    This wouldn’t be true of Lee Kuan Yew, of course. Singapore became what it is today because of Lee. But perhaps Turkey could never have become anything like Singapore. As Lee himself was famous for saying, he could only turn Singapore into what it is because the ethnic Chinese made up 76 per cent of the population.

    I go to Turkey on holiday every year. The Turks are a warm and hospitable people. I have had a close connection to the country for nearly a decade as I had a long relationship with a Turkish woman once (we broke up subsequently but remained friends). I know the country reasonably well.

    I think, at the end of the day, you have to face facts: the Quran teaches and Muslims believe that it is the word of God and will be always superior to anything ever “invented” by man. It is an interesting fact to observe that if you looked at the high technology exports of Singapore (as a small example), they exceed the high tech exports of all the world’s Muslim countries combined. Isn’t that an amazing thing? This is worth pondering for a second. A tiny Chinese outpost of barely six million people export more high tech goods than the world’s 57 Muslim countries combined!

    Islam is a regressive religion. The Turks managed, for a while, to tone down its more fanatical aspects and build a modern society. But unless you utterly undermine the religious beliefs that underpin Islam, modernity cannot be sustained. This lies at the heart of it. Ataturk was probably an atheist although, for obvious reasons, he could never have expressed himself that way.

    Due to my past relationship, I got to know a lot of Turks. What I found interesting is that when the Turks arrive in the West, their “response” is quite different from that of many non-muslim Asians (as a contrast). Whereas there are (in America especially) countless examples of scientific and mathematical figures that are ethnic Asians who exploited the freedom of thought and the outstanding institutions of America (just look at MIT), I never saw this among the Turks. Among the Turkish men, freed from the pressures of family, they dived into drinking, screwing women and making money (in that order). They seemed to lack any kind of intellectual “curiosity”. Do the absolutist beliefs of Islam destroy “curiosity” among its adherents? Good question. It would seem to be that way.

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  43. @Luke Lea
    The Turkish economy puzzles me. There is little on the internet, yet it has a per capita income of $10,000 and, apparently, much more industrial output than any other Muslim Middle-Eastern country. (Not sure it that includes Iran.) How much is this due to foreign direct investment? Automobiles, for example -- is it like Mexico in that respect, building Japanese, European, and American brands? Also, how integrated is it into NATO? Would it be allowed to stay in NATO and the OECD if it strays too far from democracy?

    This page has interesting stats about its exports. Vehicles are #1 making up over 12% of their world exports.

    Their most famous export, without a doubt, is TV productions. Turkish soap operas are everywhere.

    I noticed a few years ago that in Canada all the Tuborg beer there is actually brewed in Turkey, not Denmark. It’s probably the same in the US.

    Beer is unIslamic and based on what I’ve seen of their soaps they might be too. Wonder what Erdogan thinks of those.

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    • Replies: @Jack D
    The world alcohol itself is an Arabic word. Ostensibly, alcohol was supposed to be made and consumed exclusively by the non-Muslim minorities (Greeks, Armenians, etc.), of which there were many in the Ottoman Empire, but in practice many Muslim Turks partook. (Ataturk himself was a big drinker and alcohol probably contributed to his death at an early age). During the age of the Sultans there would be periodic decrees against Muslim drinking but this was probably more honored in the breach than in reality, at least in the big cities. (Again a lot like the US - during Prohibition you could still get booze in NY, Chicago, etc. ). The meyhanes (wine houses) always had the legal excuse that they were intended for a non-Muslim clientele (during Prohibition you could still make "sacramental wine"). The traditional drink was originally wine and then in the 19th century raki (an anise flavored distilled spirit similar to ouzo ). Beer is a modern addition.

    Today's super conservative Muslims are really a reactionary movement against the libertine West, promoted by the Saudis. For most of the 1st half of the 20th century, Islam in Turkish cities was something that most people wore very lightly, like Christianity in the West.

  44. Many fear that refugees with medieval beliefs are a threat to democracy and they may be right. However, as a toady to the incipient Turkish dictator, Merkel proves that trying to keep refugees out is an actual threat to democracy.

    If we allowed for the free movements of people, individuals like Edrogan would have no leverage.

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    • Replies: @iSteveFan

    If we allowed for the free movements of people, individuals like Edrogan would have no leverage.
     
    And we'd have no country.
  45. @Jack D
    What happened in Turkey was that the countryside won. Like a lot of countries (US), Turkey has a sophisticated modern urban population, which tends to be secular/non-religious and a large backcountry where the people are much more conservative and religious. The city dwellers forgot to have kids and the country dwellers had lots, so the country changed from being run by secular Westernizers to being run by religious conservatives.

    Why hasn't this happened in the US?

    Two reasons come to mind:

    (1) Especially in the past fifty years, we have foolishly imported tens of millions of Third World immigrants, mainly Mexicans, both illegally and “legally.” Most of them have lower levels of education, fewer marketable skills, and cultural mores and expectations that are incompatible with our traditional Western Anglo/European ones.

    Between them and their many children and now grandchildren, they out-vote actual core-stock Euro-Americans in an increasing number of jurisdictions, even with relatively more normal, productive, common-sense, patriotic, religious, and nationalist white Americans having lots of children in the outer-suburban / exurban and rural areas.

    As far as I know, Turkey hasn’t attracted a comparably massive number of hostile or incompatible immigrants.

    (2) Perhaps the pressure of the mass media and government-school indoctrination is stronger here than Turkey, in a direction that discourages and stigmatizes pride, identity, and traditional family values and goals among white children. That tends to lead to white people delaying or never making the commitment to monogamous marriage, having fewer children, being sexually confused, and being afraid to stand up for their own people and interests while every other race here in the formerly UNITED States does so unapologetically.

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  46. OT: Mrs George Lucas has announced that the Lucas museum in Chicago will be for Brown and black children. I guess no white people are allowed. They expect tax money from white people. I guess this solves the race problem somehow.

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    • Replies: @Formerly CARealist
    Not sure what you're referring to here, but I go to museums routinely. They are filled with white people (and some Asians). Black and brown people aren't really interested in museums, even if they're full of their own culture's art.

    Schools can bus kids in, but that won't sustain a museum.
  47. Steve writes: “be wary of places where the boss is heading into his second decade in power.”

    This would include Germany; Merkel became Chancellor in November 2005.

    There’s a lesson in that, somewhere.

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  48. @Jenner Ickham Errican
    OT: Harvard soft-bans evil (white, mostly?) males from voluntarily associating.

    I thought this comment made a lot of sense:

    To really irritate people, the men only clubs should let some women in, but not Harvard women.

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    • Replies: @Bill Jones
    Why is it that women want to interfere in whatever men want to do?
    No men only clubs, no men only sports or other activities- not even boxing/wrestling.

    You don't see men farting around with Lace Tatting sessions or whatever the hell it is that women do when they get together

  49. People forget why Ataturk acted as he did — the complete military failure despite decades of modernization of the Ottoman Empire against the Western Allies. At Meggido, the forces of Allenby had planes strafing Ottoman soldiers, artillery, tanks, and rapidly moving trucks taking soldiers around the battlefield. The Ottoman forces had donkeys, rifles, almost no machine guns, and a few mortars. Almost all of that was imported from Germany.

    Outside threats: France/England, Greece, Soviet Russia, forced Turks to accept Westernization and modernization and alliance with the US to keep their country from being partitioned like a turkey at Thanksgiving.

    Then those threats went away. A man like Erdogan could be an Islamist, but if he ruled in say 1965 he would fear the Soviet Union’s ambitions for Turkey and would moderate his Islamist/Ottoman pretensions. Now with no real threat to Turkey so far, Erdogan seeing the weakness in Iraq, in Syria, in Lebanon, wants to recreate the Ottoman Empire, also in Greece, Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary, Macedonia, Serbia, Ukraine, Crimea, etc. All formerly ruled by the Ottomans. As well as Egypt, Israel, Saudis, the Gulf States, Tunisia, Libya, Algeria, Sudan, etc.

    What, the dream of empire just went away because of Iphones or something?

    This is who the Turks really are, what they are about, and a regression to their prior state. I would not be shocked to see Erdogan just seize much of the Greek Islands and mainland, because why not? What would Mutti Merkel do? Surrender of course with tingles aplenty. He has her number.

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    • Replies: @5371
    Well, the Turks did well at Gallipoli and in Mesopotamia, although of course they had the benefit of some German expertise.
  50. The secularists are clearly right, Erdogan did present himself as more secular then he actually was., even though the telltale signs were always there. In a country where fictional conspiracies are always part of the equation, it is no surprise some will actually craft their own in order to gain power. A wikileaks cable discussed then foreign minister Ahmed Davutoglu calling their cabinet the “new ottomans” when giving a speech at an AKP retreat in 2009. In this period the AKP were still seen as secular by the Western mainstream media.

    Erdogan has always been a neo-ottoman and fundamentalist Muslim.

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  51. @Tiny Duck
    Many fear that refugees with medieval beliefs are a threat to democracy and they may be right. However, as a toady to the incipient Turkish dictator, Merkel proves that trying to keep refugees out is an actual threat to democracy.

    If we allowed for the free movements of people, individuals like Edrogan would have no leverage.

    If we allowed for the free movements of people, individuals like Edrogan would have no leverage.

    And we’d have no country.

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  52. @Jenner Ickham Errican
    OT: Harvard soft-bans evil (white, mostly?) males from voluntarily associating.

    These clubs were always somewhat secretive – now they will probably become even more secretive and just not tell anyone who their members are. It’s as if they are begging for white men to practice going underground. Czarist oppression was like a finishing school for Bolshevik revolutionaries.

    I’m sure the legal geniuses at Harvard have cleared this (or think that they have) and Harvard is a private university that doesn’t have the same free speech limitations as publicly owned institutions, but it still doesn’t smell right to me from a legal POV. They might win in the end but I could really see them getting dragged thru court on this in a way that would not make them look good.

    This is just the leftists of America taking a victory lap, celebrating with the football in the end zone, rubbing the face of white men in the dirt, etc. but have they REALLY won the game or are they declaring victory too soon?

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    • Replies: @Bill

    Czarist oppression was like a finishing school for Bolshevik revolutionaries.
     
    True. But it's true because Czarist oppression was just oppressive enough to piss people off without being nearly oppressive enough to actually get them to knock it off. Machiavelli would have freaked out at the ineffectuality of Romanoff oppression. Lenin would have had a lot of trouble organizing the October Putsch from an unmarked grave, for example. It's not clear to me that multiculti oppression is even bad enough yet to really piss people off.

    Trannies in the lady's room is certainly the wrong policy, but how pissed off am I about it? Not much. Gay marriage is certainly the wrong policy, but how pissed off am I about it? Not much. Forced cake-baking? Whatever. Trigger warnings? Boring. Sexual harassment training? Slightly annoying. Bonesmen have to admit Boneswomen (oops, that's Yale)? Cry me a river.

    The stuff that really gets me going---seeing my childhood neighborhood reduced to rubble by school desegregation---is all seemingly in the past now. Or it's now done on such a small scale that there is no general anger about it.

    Maybe when the NYT starts defending the right of gay teachers to nail my sons, that will be worth getting angry about. Will they do that, though?
  53. The most deplorable one [AKA "Fourth doorman of the apocalypse"] says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    Czarist oppression was like a finishing school for Bolshevik revolutionaries.

    Curiously, it is not often mentioned, and never by the left, that those who eventually replaced the Czars killed more than the Czars and the Inquisition combined by an order of magnitude, at least, and in a much shorter time.

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  54. @UnlearnedElder
    I thought this comment made a lot of sense:

    To really irritate people, the men only clubs should let some women in, but not Harvard women.
     

    Why is it that women want to interfere in whatever men want to do?
    No men only clubs, no men only sports or other activities- not even boxing/wrestling.

    You don’t see men farting around with Lace Tatting sessions or whatever the hell it is that women do when they get together

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  55. “One theory that seems plausible is that Turkey was dragged down by the Arab Spring next door in Syria. As a Turk, Erdogan would have been better off lying low, but he got puffed up by the prospect of making himself Moral Leader of the Muslim World and denounced the Assad regime, when he would have been better off avoiding the Middle Eastern tarpit altogether.”

    You’re almost right Steve, but Erdogan was forced to try to bring down Assad by Sunni Gulf money and the American Deep State (Neocons), and it backfired badly like any Zionist Neocon or Sunni Arab plan for World domination. Erdogan is more a puppet than anything else, who do you think it ordered to shot down the Russian bomber?

    People here keep talking about Kurdish demographics but if you know Turks they won’t let them dismember their country, the Turks have the means to keep it together even in extreme circunstancies. The Kurds are saw in the Middle-East as Zionist-American 5th Column and this is not far away from the truth, if American Imperialism vanishes the Turks would unite with the Arabs and Persians to solve the Kurdish question.

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  56. @Clyde
    One factor is the higher Kurdish birthrates. Kurds are rural, poorer, more Islamic. In contrast to the Turks who live close to the European mainland, who trend secularized and cosmopolitan.
    Mark Steyn layed it all out:

    http://www.steynonline.com/6520/young-turks
    A trickle of "Who lost Turkey?" stories had begun appearing in the American conservative press, and I would have joined them - except that I knew the answer. This is from my National Review column of April 16th 2007:

    Since the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, there have been two Turkeys — the Turks of Rumelia, or European Turkey, and the Turks of Anatolia, or Asia Minor. Kemal Atatürk was from Rumelia and so were most of his supporters, and they imposed the modern Turkish Republic on a somewhat reluctant Anatolia, where Atatürk's distinction between the state and Islam was never accepted. In its 80-year history, the population has increased from 14 million to 70 million, but the vast bulk of that population growth has come from Anatolia, whose population has migrated from the rural hinterland to overwhelm the once solidly Kemalist cities.
     

    One factor is the higher Kurdish birthrates. Kurds are rural, poorer, more Islamic.

    If Kurds are so Islamic, how come we’re always hearing about how they’re the secular ones in Iraq and they’ve got all these women fighters? I thought Kurds were moderate Muslims in relation to Arabs.

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    • Replies: @Laplace

    If Kurds are so Islamic, how come we’re always hearing about how they’re the secular ones in Iraq and they’ve got all these women fighters? I thought Kurds were moderate Muslims in relation to Arabs.
     
    Simple. Israel wants a Kurdish state to secure the future of Israel. Such state would divert attention from Israel. Who owns media? Even after massive terror attacks in Turkey (by secular Kurdish terror organization) the Western media was basically mute, there were even articles calling Turks negotiate peace...

    So, many people in the West think Kurds are these wonderful people and Turks are terrible oppressors due to media propaganda that always portray Kurds positively. While in reality Kurds are the most backward ethnic group in Middle East which itself is not the most advanced part of the world, and as their population rise crime levels skyrocket in Turkey.

    Also, please understand that Erdogan is NOT an ethnic Turk. Since AKP has ascended power they did their best to suppress Turkish nationalism, while actively encouraging Kurdish nationalism. Also, during AKP's reign, Kurds started receiving child support which is about 1/4 of monthly minimum wage in Turkey.

    So I am always baffled when I come across these articles that label AKP and Erdogan as these conservative/nationalist Turks. Reality is, they are not. They are just green communists in the sense they believe a union of Muslims regardless of nationality.

    , @Clyde
    Best I can explain is that Kurds in Eastern Turkey are different than the Kurds in Northern Iraq. Some answers here: https://www.quora.com/Are-Kurds-predominantly-more-secular-than-neighboring-Arabs-and-Persians-Iranians
  57. @Matra
    This page has interesting stats about its exports. Vehicles are #1 making up over 12% of their world exports.

    Their most famous export, without a doubt, is TV productions. Turkish soap operas are everywhere.

    I noticed a few years ago that in Canada all the Tuborg beer there is actually brewed in Turkey, not Denmark. It's probably the same in the US.

    Beer is unIslamic and based on what I've seen of their soaps they might be too. Wonder what Erdogan thinks of those.

    The world alcohol itself is an Arabic word. Ostensibly, alcohol was supposed to be made and consumed exclusively by the non-Muslim minorities (Greeks, Armenians, etc.), of which there were many in the Ottoman Empire, but in practice many Muslim Turks partook. (Ataturk himself was a big drinker and alcohol probably contributed to his death at an early age). During the age of the Sultans there would be periodic decrees against Muslim drinking but this was probably more honored in the breach than in reality, at least in the big cities. (Again a lot like the US – during Prohibition you could still get booze in NY, Chicago, etc. ). The meyhanes (wine houses) always had the legal excuse that they were intended for a non-Muslim clientele (during Prohibition you could still make “sacramental wine”). The traditional drink was originally wine and then in the 19th century raki (an anise flavored distilled spirit similar to ouzo ). Beer is a modern addition.

    Today’s super conservative Muslims are really a reactionary movement against the libertine West, promoted by the Saudis. For most of the 1st half of the 20th century, Islam in Turkish cities was something that most people wore very lightly, like Christianity in the West.

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  58. Erdogan tried failed to start a war between Russia and NATO. Now nobody likes him and Putin has him in the crosshairs. Before that he tried and failed to overthrow Assad. Now he is trying and failing to destroy the Curds. I know nothing of the internal affairs of Turkey but is seems that Erdogan is trying to be the new Sultan. A real Sultan would probably not be such a failure.

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  59. Erdogan and his clique wrongly imprisoned so many people and stole so much money that to lose power would mean facing imprisonment and even a firing squad. Becoming entrenched in power is their only chance and of course it means that they can keep stealing and wrongly imprisoning opponents.

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  60. While many people have seen Turkey as a shining example of how secular government and Islam can coexist, what I see is that a small group of secular Muslims seized power in the post-Ottoman world and completely dominated the government from then on, holding the religious masses at bay.

    In other words, Turkey is just a version of Iraq, where a strong-willed secular minority also dominated the larger, more religious masses of it’s nation. It’s really nothing that special, other than the Turks-in-charge for decades had a better PR policy with the west (how many James Bond movies ended up shot in Istanbul?)

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  61. @flyingtiger
    OT: Mrs George Lucas has announced that the Lucas museum in Chicago will be for Brown and black children. I guess no white people are allowed. They expect tax money from white people. I guess this solves the race problem somehow.

    Not sure what you’re referring to here, but I go to museums routinely. They are filled with white people (and some Asians). Black and brown people aren’t really interested in museums, even if they’re full of their own culture’s art.

    Schools can bus kids in, but that won’t sustain a museum.

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    • Replies: @flyingtiger
    This was a quick note, which is why you did not understand.
    George Lucas wants to put a star wars museum in Chicago. He and his black wife, Melody, are demanding large sums of money to put up a museum on the lake front. Illinois and Chicago are strapped for cash. This is the result of decades of mismanagement by the democratic party. Since Lucas is not getting his way., his wife Melody is playing the race card. She says if the museum is not put up where they want, "It will deprive black and brown children from seeing it."
    Oddly enough,they have rejected putting the museum in other areas. In some neighborhoods there is lots of vacant land that can be had for a small price, and the museum would vitalize the neighborhood. The many black and brown faces seem to scare the Lucases away.
  62. anon says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    Breeding.

    The Islamist interior outbred the secular coasts thus changing the electoral balance of power.

    That in itself wouldn’t have changed anything cos army but Erdogan stealthed well enough to get into power (limited by the army).

    That wouldn’t have been enough either except SJWs in the EU weakened the thing holding him back (army).

    So
    - breeding
    - Erdogan being a good stealther
    - SJWs

    It doesn’t matter much in neo-Ottoman balance of power terms as “losing Turkey” has led the corporate oligarchy to dynamite the Kurd vs Turk fault-line so Turkey will join the long list of bloody civil wars that is preparing to engulf the world.

    The deal between the EU and Turkey to control the migrant influx

    That’s just spin. The EU/UN replacement migration axis want to increase the influx so their native voters are out numbered as fast as possible.

    Whether that is in Erdogan’s interests is debateable.

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  63. Now here’s a comment by Mae West that I hadn’t seen before but would seem to be of almost universal application:

    “Between two evils, I always pick the one I never tried before.”

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  64. @WGG
    Turks are the most hospitable and friendly people around so long as they are selling something... and you are buying. They are often compared to Orthodox Jews in this way, though I wouldn't let them hear you say it out loud.

    Iran, however, is known among the hardcore travelistas to *actually* be the friendliest place on earth. They seem a very dignified people. Certainly the Persians I have met in the West have been top notch. I give much credit to the otherwise sleezy Obama administration for dealing reasonably with Iran instead of letting certain histrionic forces prevail. In the debate of the lesser of two evils, Sunni or Shia, I think it is becoming obvious that Shia is the lesser of the evils. Maybe it is because they are so outnumbered and they are trying to ingratiate other allies, but I favor letting the Shia hold the whip over the rest of the Middle East. Knock the Saudis off their economic perch, get firm with Israel to prevent them starting any new wars, and let the Iranians be the new hall monitor. I probably don't know enough about it (does anyone?) so I easily concede I could be wrong. Just an idea.

    Anyway, here is an interesting video from an English fellow who loves to travel on his "motorbike" and fell in love with Iran.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2LEgowbzSc

    I’ve had the same idea.

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  65. ‘… Leaders who are initially successful enough to win themselves multiple terms in power typically are guys whose skills are the right ones at the time they came to power; but, eventually, their predilections become the new set of problems that somebody else must overcome…’

    About as close as an anti-Putin statement at Unz.com that I can think of.

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    • Replies: @5371
    How strangely unperceptive. I could tell at once it was an anti-FDR statement.
  66. @Hepp

    One factor is the higher Kurdish birthrates. Kurds are rural, poorer, more Islamic.

     

    If Kurds are so Islamic, how come we're always hearing about how they're the secular ones in Iraq and they've got all these women fighters? I thought Kurds were moderate Muslims in relation to Arabs.

    If Kurds are so Islamic, how come we’re always hearing about how they’re the secular ones in Iraq and they’ve got all these women fighters? I thought Kurds were moderate Muslims in relation to Arabs.

    Simple. Israel wants a Kurdish state to secure the future of Israel. Such state would divert attention from Israel. Who owns media? Even after massive terror attacks in Turkey (by secular Kurdish terror organization) the Western media was basically mute, there were even articles calling Turks negotiate peace…

    So, many people in the West think Kurds are these wonderful people and Turks are terrible oppressors due to media propaganda that always portray Kurds positively. While in reality Kurds are the most backward ethnic group in Middle East which itself is not the most advanced part of the world, and as their population rise crime levels skyrocket in Turkey.

    Also, please understand that Erdogan is NOT an ethnic Turk. Since AKP has ascended power they did their best to suppress Turkish nationalism, while actively encouraging Kurdish nationalism. Also, during AKP’s reign, Kurds started receiving child support which is about 1/4 of monthly minimum wage in Turkey.

    So I am always baffled when I come across these articles that label AKP and Erdogan as these conservative/nationalist Turks. Reality is, they are not. They are just green communists in the sense they believe a union of Muslims regardless of nationality.

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    • Replies: @Hepp
    Interesting, thanks. I always was skeptical of these reports of these badass Kurdish women slaughtering ISIS. I wonder if anyone has investigated this issue and whether it's all just lies and propaganda.

    I used to get sick when I would read Christopher Hitchens talk about how the Kurds were inspired by Marxism, as if that was a great thing.
    , @Hepp
    Another question. If Kurds are so Islamic, why do they seem so underrepresented with regards to international jihadism and all their rebel groups tend to be nationalistic or Marxist?
    , @Bill

    please understand that Erdogan is NOT an ethnic Turk.
     
    He certainly claims to be an ethnic Turk. You're saying he is Donmeh? I see that there are claims to that effect here and there on the internet. Is there good evidence of this? Or is it Armenian or Georgian you are claiming? I see claims like that, too.
  67. “Erdogan is an example of the usefulness of term limits … Leaders who are initially successful enough to win themselves multiple terms in power typically are guys whose skills are the right ones at the time they came to power; but, eventually, their predilections become the new set of problems that somebody else must overcome.”

    And so it is all over the world. But what do you do when “exigencies” mean that the creeps currently in power need to stay in power, just until the “exigencies” have been dealt with? I have cynically stated since 2008 that there is a non-trivial chance that Obama will still be President in 2018, and while dismissed for tin-foil-hat wearer for saying that again this week, I had to point out that it is still a long way to January 2017, and there are too many people chanting #NeverTrump and #Never Hillary to lead one to lightly dismiss a major “event” that might take out one or both of them and thereby require “exigent measures” to deal with them.

    This is all said somewhat tongue in cheek when discussing the US, but not out of the realm of possibility. For Erdogan’s Turkey, however, it is what we are actually seeing on the ground.

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  68. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    OT: Anatoly Karlin has a post up on Russian stereotypes of foreign countries found at Google.RU

    The most important entry is “wears headphones” for Slovenia!

    This the kind of important information we can use to push back against the Slovenian takeover of our precious Whitehouse.

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    • Replies: @Glossy
    I guess Melania would be the first foreign-born FLOTUS ever? Very appropriate for the God-Emperor. The kings of old almost always had foreign wives.
  69. @maciano
    I think you're kidding abt "who could have known"?

    There was the Turkish army, Geert Wilders, Israel, dozens of "islamophobic" activists, etc. for starters. Also, many Turkish secularist intellectuals & national rivals warned for years and years.

    And, for those who wanted to listen, Erdogan was always fairly honest abt both his Ottoman revivalist and Islamist ambitions.

    The Turkish secular example was a pipe dream. Only viable for Istanbul & the formerly Greek coastal areas. In Euro countries w/ many Turkish migrants hardly anybody ever thought of Turks as modernist minded.

    The Turkish secular example was a pipe dream. Only viable for Istanbul & the formerly Greek coastal areas.

    I thought the Greeks were sent to Greece a hundred years ago. I assumed that those coastal areas were then re-populated with random Turks from the Anatolian hinterland. This isn’t so?

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    • Replies: @maciano
    I don't know why, but these areas are very westernized. Probably because they survive and prosper on tourism.
  70. @Anonymous
    OT: Anatoly Karlin has a post up on Russian stereotypes of foreign countries found at Google.RU

    The most important entry is "wears headphones" for Slovenia!

    This the kind of important information we can use to push back against the Slovenian takeover of our precious Whitehouse.

    I guess Melania would be the first foreign-born FLOTUS ever? Very appropriate for the God-Emperor. The kings of old almost always had foreign wives.

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  71. @Laplace

    If Kurds are so Islamic, how come we’re always hearing about how they’re the secular ones in Iraq and they’ve got all these women fighters? I thought Kurds were moderate Muslims in relation to Arabs.
     
    Simple. Israel wants a Kurdish state to secure the future of Israel. Such state would divert attention from Israel. Who owns media? Even after massive terror attacks in Turkey (by secular Kurdish terror organization) the Western media was basically mute, there were even articles calling Turks negotiate peace...

    So, many people in the West think Kurds are these wonderful people and Turks are terrible oppressors due to media propaganda that always portray Kurds positively. While in reality Kurds are the most backward ethnic group in Middle East which itself is not the most advanced part of the world, and as their population rise crime levels skyrocket in Turkey.

    Also, please understand that Erdogan is NOT an ethnic Turk. Since AKP has ascended power they did their best to suppress Turkish nationalism, while actively encouraging Kurdish nationalism. Also, during AKP's reign, Kurds started receiving child support which is about 1/4 of monthly minimum wage in Turkey.

    So I am always baffled when I come across these articles that label AKP and Erdogan as these conservative/nationalist Turks. Reality is, they are not. They are just green communists in the sense they believe a union of Muslims regardless of nationality.

    Interesting, thanks. I always was skeptical of these reports of these badass Kurdish women slaughtering ISIS. I wonder if anyone has investigated this issue and whether it’s all just lies and propaganda.

    I used to get sick when I would read Christopher Hitchens talk about how the Kurds were inspired by Marxism, as if that was a great thing.

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    • Replies: @Jack Hanson
    Pretty sure 100% of Grandma chain email memes regarding "BAD ASS FEMALE KURD SNIPER ISIS IS TERRIFIED OF" is Western fabulism slapping impact font over a Kurd holding a sniper rifle.

    The people I know over there haven't seen these legions of Kurdish valkyries that the NYT is always saying exist.
    , @Laplace
    Yes, just shows how much propaganda is being done to create sympathy for Kurds, again it's not like propagators of this BS actually gives sh.t about Kurds. It's just that they figured a Kurdish state would be good for Israel long ago.

    It's not even Kurdish men that's is destroying ISIS, it is Kurdish women for God's sake. Lol...
    , @5371
    Martin van Creveld has a piece somewhere debunking those butt-kicking Kurdish babes.
  72. @Laplace

    If Kurds are so Islamic, how come we’re always hearing about how they’re the secular ones in Iraq and they’ve got all these women fighters? I thought Kurds were moderate Muslims in relation to Arabs.
     
    Simple. Israel wants a Kurdish state to secure the future of Israel. Such state would divert attention from Israel. Who owns media? Even after massive terror attacks in Turkey (by secular Kurdish terror organization) the Western media was basically mute, there were even articles calling Turks negotiate peace...

    So, many people in the West think Kurds are these wonderful people and Turks are terrible oppressors due to media propaganda that always portray Kurds positively. While in reality Kurds are the most backward ethnic group in Middle East which itself is not the most advanced part of the world, and as their population rise crime levels skyrocket in Turkey.

    Also, please understand that Erdogan is NOT an ethnic Turk. Since AKP has ascended power they did their best to suppress Turkish nationalism, while actively encouraging Kurdish nationalism. Also, during AKP's reign, Kurds started receiving child support which is about 1/4 of monthly minimum wage in Turkey.

    So I am always baffled when I come across these articles that label AKP and Erdogan as these conservative/nationalist Turks. Reality is, they are not. They are just green communists in the sense they believe a union of Muslims regardless of nationality.

    Another question. If Kurds are so Islamic, why do they seem so underrepresented with regards to international jihadism and all their rebel groups tend to be nationalistic or Marxist?

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    • Replies: @Laplace
    Most Muslims are underrepresented with regards to international Jihadism, for example Malaysians are exemplary Muslims but you would be hard pressed to find any Malaysian fighting for ISIS. The truth is, there is no such thing as international Jihadism, current situation in Iraq and Syria is a direct result of invasion of Iraq and civil war in Syria. Sure, ISIS uses internet and can even recruit a few American or Japanese people, but basically almost all their fighters are either from Iraq, Syria, Chechnya or other war torn/chaotic places. Most Kurds live in Turkey, which is a basically stable country. For Kurds in Syria and Iraq it's more of an ethnic fight and one they can't avoid, there also was an existing power structure before ISIS came (Talabani and Barzani in Iraq, have been supported by US and Israel for a long time), and in Syria PKK (Marxist/Nationalist terrorists) organized and started fighting against ISIS.

    However, Islamist groups do have a lot of Kurdish members as well, there is also Hizbullah in Turkey. You just don't hear about them, because narrative should be such that, evil Islamist terrorists ISIS creates horrors and brave Kurds beats them, thus it's only fair that they have their state in those lands. The fact is ISIS is created in torture prisons in Iraq and intelligence offices of certain countries (didn't Americans exactly know what they were doing when they were torturing thousands of Iraqis as well as Iraqi army officers?). Watch when ISIS evaporates once US strikes them and all of a sudden Kurds have the control of the region, which now has access to Mediterranean Sea. Consider this also, in Turkey a Kurd can do/be anything they want in Turkey because , their party is 3rd party in parliament, yet somehow Turks oppress Kurds according to Western media and people influenced by media. They have also been trying to create chaos near Syria/Iraq border towns of Turkey, army literally have to clean some towns street by street, yet you don't hear that reported as well (because AKP idiots actually thought they could negotiate with terrorists and turned a blind a eye to their logistics and allowed terrorists to settle in cities), same story. Or when over 100 people die in Turkey because of Kurdish suicide bomber, it's not important news (yet when it's Islamist terrorists in Brussels it's huge news, why?).

    Who wins when there is a Kurdish state? Nobody, not even majority of Kurdish people. Only winner is Israel. When you look from who wins/who loses perspective, a lot of things are much easier to figure. The only reason this saga hasn't concluded yet is because groups like ISIS are easier to create but harder to control, also because Turkey is showing resistance (which is too late, AKP had been enablers of Kurdish terrorists for years, it's only been 2-3 years since they woke up and Turkey has been paying for their stupid policies with regard to Syria and Kurdish separatists).
  73. anon says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @Luke Lea
    The Turkish economy puzzles me. There is little on the internet, yet it has a per capita income of $10,000 and, apparently, much more industrial output than any other Muslim Middle-Eastern country. (Not sure it that includes Iran.) How much is this due to foreign direct investment? Automobiles, for example -- is it like Mexico in that respect, building Japanese, European, and American brands? Also, how integrated is it into NATO? Would it be allowed to stay in NATO and the OECD if it strays too far from democracy?

    How much is this due to foreign direct investment?

    Most to almost all. It is or was one of the favored off-shoring hubs cos close to EU.

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  74. @Hepp
    Interesting, thanks. I always was skeptical of these reports of these badass Kurdish women slaughtering ISIS. I wonder if anyone has investigated this issue and whether it's all just lies and propaganda.

    I used to get sick when I would read Christopher Hitchens talk about how the Kurds were inspired by Marxism, as if that was a great thing.

    Pretty sure 100% of Grandma chain email memes regarding “BAD ASS FEMALE KURD SNIPER ISIS IS TERRIFIED OF” is Western fabulism slapping impact font over a Kurd holding a sniper rifle.

    The people I know over there haven’t seen these legions of Kurdish valkyries that the NYT is always saying exist.

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  75. @WGG
    Turks are the most hospitable and friendly people around so long as they are selling something... and you are buying. They are often compared to Orthodox Jews in this way, though I wouldn't let them hear you say it out loud.

    Iran, however, is known among the hardcore travelistas to *actually* be the friendliest place on earth. They seem a very dignified people. Certainly the Persians I have met in the West have been top notch. I give much credit to the otherwise sleezy Obama administration for dealing reasonably with Iran instead of letting certain histrionic forces prevail. In the debate of the lesser of two evils, Sunni or Shia, I think it is becoming obvious that Shia is the lesser of the evils. Maybe it is because they are so outnumbered and they are trying to ingratiate other allies, but I favor letting the Shia hold the whip over the rest of the Middle East. Knock the Saudis off their economic perch, get firm with Israel to prevent them starting any new wars, and let the Iranians be the new hall monitor. I probably don't know enough about it (does anyone?) so I easily concede I could be wrong. Just an idea.

    Anyway, here is an interesting video from an English fellow who loves to travel on his "motorbike" and fell in love with Iran.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2LEgowbzSc

    The problem is that there is no way to run a pilot project on your idea. The law of unintended consequences is a harsh mistress.

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  76. @Hepp

    One factor is the higher Kurdish birthrates. Kurds are rural, poorer, more Islamic.

     

    If Kurds are so Islamic, how come we're always hearing about how they're the secular ones in Iraq and they've got all these women fighters? I thought Kurds were moderate Muslims in relation to Arabs.

    Best I can explain is that Kurds in Eastern Turkey are different than the Kurds in Northern Iraq. Some answers here: https://www.quora.com/Are-Kurds-predominantly-more-secular-than-neighboring-Arabs-and-Persians-Iranians

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  77. @Hepp
    Another question. If Kurds are so Islamic, why do they seem so underrepresented with regards to international jihadism and all their rebel groups tend to be nationalistic or Marxist?

    Most Muslims are underrepresented with regards to international Jihadism, for example Malaysians are exemplary Muslims but you would be hard pressed to find any Malaysian fighting for ISIS. The truth is, there is no such thing as international Jihadism, current situation in Iraq and Syria is a direct result of invasion of Iraq and civil war in Syria. Sure, ISIS uses internet and can even recruit a few American or Japanese people, but basically almost all their fighters are either from Iraq, Syria, Chechnya or other war torn/chaotic places. Most Kurds live in Turkey, which is a basically stable country. For Kurds in Syria and Iraq it’s more of an ethnic fight and one they can’t avoid, there also was an existing power structure before ISIS came (Talabani and Barzani in Iraq, have been supported by US and Israel for a long time), and in Syria PKK (Marxist/Nationalist terrorists) organized and started fighting against ISIS.

    However, Islamist groups do have a lot of Kurdish members as well, there is also Hizbullah in Turkey. You just don’t hear about them, because narrative should be such that, evil Islamist terrorists ISIS creates horrors and brave Kurds beats them, thus it’s only fair that they have their state in those lands. The fact is ISIS is created in torture prisons in Iraq and intelligence offices of certain countries (didn’t Americans exactly know what they were doing when they were torturing thousands of Iraqis as well as Iraqi army officers?). Watch when ISIS evaporates once US strikes them and all of a sudden Kurds have the control of the region, which now has access to Mediterranean Sea. Consider this also, in Turkey a Kurd can do/be anything they want in Turkey because , their party is 3rd party in parliament, yet somehow Turks oppress Kurds according to Western media and people influenced by media. They have also been trying to create chaos near Syria/Iraq border towns of Turkey, army literally have to clean some towns street by street, yet you don’t hear that reported as well (because AKP idiots actually thought they could negotiate with terrorists and turned a blind a eye to their logistics and allowed terrorists to settle in cities), same story. Or when over 100 people die in Turkey because of Kurdish suicide bomber, it’s not important news (yet when it’s Islamist terrorists in Brussels it’s huge news, why?).

    Who wins when there is a Kurdish state? Nobody, not even majority of Kurdish people. Only winner is Israel. When you look from who wins/who loses perspective, a lot of things are much easier to figure. The only reason this saga hasn’t concluded yet is because groups like ISIS are easier to create but harder to control, also because Turkey is showing resistance (which is too late, AKP had been enablers of Kurdish terrorists for years, it’s only been 2-3 years since they woke up and Turkey has been paying for their stupid policies with regard to Syria and Kurdish separatists).

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  78. anon says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    Was Turkey EVER really a democracy? Did the reforms really sink deep roots? The weight of history is not that easy to shake off and changing human beings mentalities is very difficult. Islam is basically incompatible with a free democratic country. Freedom house rates Turkey a 53 (out of a 100) for freedom. It is officially rated a 3.5 (out of 7) giving it a partly free rating. Google Freedom House’s map of freedom 2015 and you will see that the one area of the world that is virtually wholly unfree and undemocratic is the areas where Islam has a majority-presence.

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  79. @Hepp
    Interesting, thanks. I always was skeptical of these reports of these badass Kurdish women slaughtering ISIS. I wonder if anyone has investigated this issue and whether it's all just lies and propaganda.

    I used to get sick when I would read Christopher Hitchens talk about how the Kurds were inspired by Marxism, as if that was a great thing.

    Yes, just shows how much propaganda is being done to create sympathy for Kurds, again it’s not like propagators of this BS actually gives sh.t about Kurds. It’s just that they figured a Kurdish state would be good for Israel long ago.

    It’s not even Kurdish men that’s is destroying ISIS, it is Kurdish women for God’s sake. Lol…

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  80. I have several Turkish friends from Istanbul. Very European in outlook, extreme Leftist/ Communist and atheistic. Initially, I was supportive of Erdogan because I saw Erdogan as a healthy push back on Turkish militarism, deep state cabals and religious oppression. I am not the biggest fan of Attaturk’s forced secularism. Also, I took some pleasure in Erdogan standing up to George Bush’s foreign policy and in general acting independently on the world stage.

    My Turkish friends who knew Erdogan from his time as mayor of Istanbul hated him from the beginning. They insisted that Erdogan would eventually become as oppressive as the previous government and they were particularly nervous over Erdogan’s promotion of Islam.

    Ten years on, secular Turks were correct to always be on guard for the rise of political Islam in Turkey. The urban elite have an unhealthy disdain for their interior countrymen, but I have to admit that the Communists were right for once.

    While my Turkish friends are yuuuge Bernie Sanders supporters, they have joked with me in private that they agree with Trump on Islam.

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  81. @Formerly CARealist
    Not sure what you're referring to here, but I go to museums routinely. They are filled with white people (and some Asians). Black and brown people aren't really interested in museums, even if they're full of their own culture's art.

    Schools can bus kids in, but that won't sustain a museum.

    This was a quick note, which is why you did not understand.
    George Lucas wants to put a star wars museum in Chicago. He and his black wife, Melody, are demanding large sums of money to put up a museum on the lake front. Illinois and Chicago are strapped for cash. This is the result of decades of mismanagement by the democratic party. Since Lucas is not getting his way., his wife Melody is playing the race card. She says if the museum is not put up where they want, “It will deprive black and brown children from seeing it.”
    Oddly enough,they have rejected putting the museum in other areas. In some neighborhoods there is lots of vacant land that can be had for a small price, and the museum would vitalize the neighborhood. The many black and brown faces seem to scare the Lucases away.

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  82. @Glossy
    The Turkish secular example was a pipe dream. Only viable for Istanbul & the formerly Greek coastal areas.

    I thought the Greeks were sent to Greece a hundred years ago. I assumed that those coastal areas were then re-populated with random Turks from the Anatolian hinterland. This isn't so?

    I don’t know why, but these areas are very westernized. Probably because they survive and prosper on tourism.

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  83. @Whiskey
    People forget why Ataturk acted as he did -- the complete military failure despite decades of modernization of the Ottoman Empire against the Western Allies. At Meggido, the forces of Allenby had planes strafing Ottoman soldiers, artillery, tanks, and rapidly moving trucks taking soldiers around the battlefield. The Ottoman forces had donkeys, rifles, almost no machine guns, and a few mortars. Almost all of that was imported from Germany.

    Outside threats: France/England, Greece, Soviet Russia, forced Turks to accept Westernization and modernization and alliance with the US to keep their country from being partitioned like a turkey at Thanksgiving.

    Then those threats went away. A man like Erdogan could be an Islamist, but if he ruled in say 1965 he would fear the Soviet Union's ambitions for Turkey and would moderate his Islamist/Ottoman pretensions. Now with no real threat to Turkey so far, Erdogan seeing the weakness in Iraq, in Syria, in Lebanon, wants to recreate the Ottoman Empire, also in Greece, Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary, Macedonia, Serbia, Ukraine, Crimea, etc. All formerly ruled by the Ottomans. As well as Egypt, Israel, Saudis, the Gulf States, Tunisia, Libya, Algeria, Sudan, etc.

    What, the dream of empire just went away because of Iphones or something?

    This is who the Turks really are, what they are about, and a regression to their prior state. I would not be shocked to see Erdogan just seize much of the Greek Islands and mainland, because why not? What would Mutti Merkel do? Surrender of course with tingles aplenty. He has her number.

    Well, the Turks did well at Gallipoli and in Mesopotamia, although of course they had the benefit of some German expertise.

    Read More
  84. @Hepp
    Interesting, thanks. I always was skeptical of these reports of these badass Kurdish women slaughtering ISIS. I wonder if anyone has investigated this issue and whether it's all just lies and propaganda.

    I used to get sick when I would read Christopher Hitchens talk about how the Kurds were inspired by Marxism, as if that was a great thing.

    Martin van Creveld has a piece somewhere debunking those butt-kicking Kurdish babes.

    Read More
  85. @anony-mouse
    '... Leaders who are initially successful enough to win themselves multiple terms in power typically are guys whose skills are the right ones at the time they came to power; but, eventually, their predilections become the new set of problems that somebody else must overcome...'

    About as close as an anti-Putin statement at Unz.com that I can think of.

    How strangely unperceptive. I could tell at once it was an anti-FDR statement.

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  86. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @Zachary Latif
    My first time to Turkey was last August - since then I visited multiple times (and even stayed in Ist) as we were planning to get married in Istanbul. In that period (August-April) Turkey went from bad to worse - in the end we switched the wedding venue to a far more sensible location. To broadly generalise the Turks are arrogant, attractive and aggressive; ironically it's the same reputation they have in Iran (Persian believe that among the local Iranian Turks).

    It was such a contrast going back to Iran last month after 25years, Persians are an order of magnitude more polite and forthcoming than the Turks. Well it does make sense since the last millennia of the core Muslim world has only had Turks, Kurds (Safavids/Saladin) & Berber dynasties; the Perso-Arabs sort of faded into the cultural sphere.

    To get back on point Turkey is painfully returning back to the Ottoman model and to its Anatolian roots. I have to say it's so disconcerting hearing the Turkish language (which was shorn of its Perso-Arabic veneer by Ataturk) still retain the core Islamic vocabulary (even though they are radically different languages, knowing Persian or Arabic lets you figure out alot of basic Turkish words - Mehraba, Tashkoglu) but written in the Latin Alphabet.

    Finally I have to say that Iran really exceeded my expectation whereas Turkey in the last year will trampled on my expectations (and the sad thing is that Istanbul/Anatolia is a land like no other). In the sense that also mirrors the geopolitical ascendancy of Iran over Turkey in the past decade.

    “It was such a contrast going back to Iran last month after 25years, Persians are an order of magnitude more polite and forthcoming than the Turks.”

    Don’t get this impression of Turks v Persians in the West.

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  87. The problem for turkey is the Iraq war and then the Arab spring have given the Kurds the prospect of a viable state of their own, Turkey is a natural enemy of Russia and has been backing the Syrian rebellion against the Russian client regime of Assad. But Turkey is terrified of a Syrian Kurd- Iraqi Kurd territorial continuity and contol as this would be be the basis for an independent state that could draw Turkish Kurds (maybe 20% of the Turkish population are Kurdish) to breakaway so to keep the Kurds busy it has been building up ISIS , who hammer the Kurds. This is why both the US and Russia were helping the Kurds recently. Turkey must have been turning a blind eye to ISIS supply routes for it to function. http://en.abna24.com/service/middle-east-west-asia/archive/2016/04/30/750925/story.html

    The Turkish secret service is supposed to have actually supplying ISIS with weapons, revealing this got a couple of Turkish journalists 5 years imprisonment yesterday.

    http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/turkey-journalists-charged-spying-over-claims-ankara-supplied-arms-syrian-militants-1530723

    Germany is Turkey’s ally (their old alliance goes back to WW1). Merkel is worried about immigration extinguishing European nations like Br’er Rabbit was about the briar bush. Germany will gain relative to other EU countries.

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  88. @Jack D
    What happened in Turkey was that the countryside won. Like a lot of countries (US), Turkey has a sophisticated modern urban population, which tends to be secular/non-religious and a large backcountry where the people are much more conservative and religious. The city dwellers forgot to have kids and the country dwellers had lots, so the country changed from being run by secular Westernizers to being run by religious conservatives.

    Why hasn't this happened in the US?

    Our current elite has been good at co-opting key slices of rival groups. Affirmative Action skims the talented tenth off of blacks, largely segregates them, gives them satisying busywork to do, and gives them a powerful financial and status stake in the status quo.

    For whites, it’s the ideology of secular meritocracy which does it. Whether it’s the kind of fast-talking, very bright scumbag who goes to Wall St or the kind of IQ 135 sperg who designs precision guided munitions or does production engineering in some Intel fab, our elite offers them both money and an ideology producing a status hierarchy in which they are superior to their relatives back in Des Moines. Just read the hbd spergs fantasizing about our coming miscegenated Jew-Asian-smart white elite to see it. Or read the same spergs holding forth, in the teeth of the evidence, on the superior intellect and scholarship of gnu atheists. Ideas this dumb don’t just happen. They are carefully inculcated via a multi-pronged propaganda ministry.

    Regarding whites, you could say the same thing another way. The US is, in fact, run by religious conservatives. Our state religion is Freemasonry (though the Multicult is a rising rival). Americans get angry when the tenets of secular meritocracy are violated. It is unjust, evil, ritually impure when someone is admitted, hired, promoted, feted on the basis of their ancestry instead of on the basis of their merit. They, at most, smile ruefully at people working on Sunday. This is bizarre in historical context unless you recognize its religious character.

    The weakness of the system is regression to the mean. Dad wants his sons to be high status like he is. Regression to the mean means that either Dad doesn’t get what he wants (on average) or that the system has to get less meritocratic as it goes along. Just what do you do with Jesse Jackson Jr? Just what do you do with Bill Kristol? Just what do you do with all the noodle-armed hipsters named Dylan living off Dad’s upper management largess?

    It’s a hard question. If you give in to Dad and promote his son, then the machine you’ve carefully built starts to clank and sputter. Worse, the people who should be manning it are still back in Des Moines getting up to who knows what. On the other hand, if you don’t give in to Dad, he might start to notice that this whole globalist secular meritocracy deal isn’t all that great.

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  89. @Jack D
    These clubs were always somewhat secretive - now they will probably become even more secretive and just not tell anyone who their members are. It's as if they are begging for white men to practice going underground. Czarist oppression was like a finishing school for Bolshevik revolutionaries.

    I'm sure the legal geniuses at Harvard have cleared this (or think that they have) and Harvard is a private university that doesn't have the same free speech limitations as publicly owned institutions, but it still doesn't smell right to me from a legal POV. They might win in the end but I could really see them getting dragged thru court on this in a way that would not make them look good.

    This is just the leftists of America taking a victory lap, celebrating with the football in the end zone, rubbing the face of white men in the dirt, etc. but have they REALLY won the game or are they declaring victory too soon?

    Czarist oppression was like a finishing school for Bolshevik revolutionaries.

    True. But it’s true because Czarist oppression was just oppressive enough to piss people off without being nearly oppressive enough to actually get them to knock it off. Machiavelli would have freaked out at the ineffectuality of Romanoff oppression. Lenin would have had a lot of trouble organizing the October Putsch from an unmarked grave, for example. It’s not clear to me that multiculti oppression is even bad enough yet to really piss people off.

    Trannies in the lady’s room is certainly the wrong policy, but how pissed off am I about it? Not much. Gay marriage is certainly the wrong policy, but how pissed off am I about it? Not much. Forced cake-baking? Whatever. Trigger warnings? Boring. Sexual harassment training? Slightly annoying. Bonesmen have to admit Boneswomen (oops, that’s Yale)? Cry me a river.

    The stuff that really gets me going—seeing my childhood neighborhood reduced to rubble by school desegregation—is all seemingly in the past now. Or it’s now done on such a small scale that there is no general anger about it.

    Maybe when the NYT starts defending the right of gay teachers to nail my sons, that will be worth getting angry about. Will they do that, though?

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  90. @Laplace

    If Kurds are so Islamic, how come we’re always hearing about how they’re the secular ones in Iraq and they’ve got all these women fighters? I thought Kurds were moderate Muslims in relation to Arabs.
     
    Simple. Israel wants a Kurdish state to secure the future of Israel. Such state would divert attention from Israel. Who owns media? Even after massive terror attacks in Turkey (by secular Kurdish terror organization) the Western media was basically mute, there were even articles calling Turks negotiate peace...

    So, many people in the West think Kurds are these wonderful people and Turks are terrible oppressors due to media propaganda that always portray Kurds positively. While in reality Kurds are the most backward ethnic group in Middle East which itself is not the most advanced part of the world, and as their population rise crime levels skyrocket in Turkey.

    Also, please understand that Erdogan is NOT an ethnic Turk. Since AKP has ascended power they did their best to suppress Turkish nationalism, while actively encouraging Kurdish nationalism. Also, during AKP's reign, Kurds started receiving child support which is about 1/4 of monthly minimum wage in Turkey.

    So I am always baffled when I come across these articles that label AKP and Erdogan as these conservative/nationalist Turks. Reality is, they are not. They are just green communists in the sense they believe a union of Muslims regardless of nationality.

    please understand that Erdogan is NOT an ethnic Turk.

    He certainly claims to be an ethnic Turk. You’re saying he is Donmeh? I see that there are claims to that effect here and there on the internet. Is there good evidence of this? Or is it Armenian or Georgian you are claiming? I see claims like that, too.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Laplace
    He said that he is Georgian and his wife is Arab around 12 years ago, now he claims to be Turkish. Even if he was Turkish though, his and AKP's ideology not even remotely close to Turkish nationalism. Nowadays they appear more nationalist, only because their stupid negotiations with terrorists came to halt and PKK attempted to start a civil war in Southeast Turkey (thanks to all guns, bombs and terrorists they stocked in cities during 'peace negotiations'), and because of these developments nationalism started to rise in Turkey.

    In fact, many of core founders of AKP are not only Kurdish, but they were also Kurdish nationalists. So for years, they were effective in AKP policies and did their best to discourage Turks and encourage Kurds in social and political life. The situation is sort of similar to how whites can't say anything against any group in USA (without serious consequences) but anyone can say anything against whites. PKK sympathizers also create intellectual terror, as well as physical violence in many public universities as well, there are students who are murdered/seriously injured by terrorists in universities for being Turkish nationalist. Media underreport these incidents, always with same title: "Students of Opposite Views Clashed." Kurds are also notorious for destroying public property, not paying utilities or taxes (because of illegal use of utilities, Turks have to pay "Cost of Loss/Illegal Use" in their bills). On top of all, AKP started handing out "child support" in Kurdish provinces (not in Turkish provinces though), which is basically another tool in demographic war against Turks. These are just a few quick things I can think of.

    Unfortunately, Turks can't express these stuff because if they do they will be labeled as racist immediately, even though these are all facts everyone's aware of. Also, many educated Turks are Leftists, and for some reason they can't seem to recognize the difference between being Leftist and being an idiot tool. Among those who wouldn't mind telling these things, majority lacks knowledge of a foreign language or even when they do, they don't want to complain foreigners about their country because nationalist Turks think that complaining about your country is self-humiliating (so you will either hear frustrated emotional responses or nothing from them, if you bring up these topics). I know because until I understood Western discourse, I would also remain silent and frustrated when people asked these things to me. So there are very few people to explain what is really going on in Turkey from the perspective of Turks. There really is a long going war against Turkish identity. AKP is a neither nationalist nor represents Turkish interpretation of Islam, they are more akin to Televangelists in America. Their politics is only opportunistic, but lacks any serious intellectual base, thus their policies has no consistency. The only consistency is the degree of harm it causes to Turkey's foreign and internal affairs.

    I am saddened when these morons are called nationalist or portrayed as if they act for the interests of Turkish people.

    Also as a side note, Mustafa Akyol, like his father, is another intellectual midget and their comments/interpretations of issues related to Turkey are almost always wrong. Yet again, he does not like Turkish militarist or whatever mindset, why? Simple. Because he is not Turkish. They are Abkhazian. Yet another ethnicity stupid Ottomans allowed to migrate to Anatolia. We have a non-Turkish problem in Turkey, from government to media. It's interesting that the author thinks current situation in Turkey is bad and compares it to the good old Ottoman days, because when I look at it as a Turk, all I see is shitty old days of highly diverse Ottoman Empire when Turks were slaughtered and oppressed at the hands of diverse but largely non-Turkish Ottoman bureaucracy.

  91. @Bill

    please understand that Erdogan is NOT an ethnic Turk.
     
    He certainly claims to be an ethnic Turk. You're saying he is Donmeh? I see that there are claims to that effect here and there on the internet. Is there good evidence of this? Or is it Armenian or Georgian you are claiming? I see claims like that, too.

    He said that he is Georgian and his wife is Arab around 12 years ago, now he claims to be Turkish. Even if he was Turkish though, his and AKP’s ideology not even remotely close to Turkish nationalism. Nowadays they appear more nationalist, only because their stupid negotiations with terrorists came to halt and PKK attempted to start a civil war in Southeast Turkey (thanks to all guns, bombs and terrorists they stocked in cities during ‘peace negotiations’), and because of these developments nationalism started to rise in Turkey.

    In fact, many of core founders of AKP are not only Kurdish, but they were also Kurdish nationalists. So for years, they were effective in AKP policies and did their best to discourage Turks and encourage Kurds in social and political life. The situation is sort of similar to how whites can’t say anything against any group in USA (without serious consequences) but anyone can say anything against whites. PKK sympathizers also create intellectual terror, as well as physical violence in many public universities as well, there are students who are murdered/seriously injured by terrorists in universities for being Turkish nationalist. Media underreport these incidents, always with same title: “Students of Opposite Views Clashed.” Kurds are also notorious for destroying public property, not paying utilities or taxes (because of illegal use of utilities, Turks have to pay “Cost of Loss/Illegal Use” in their bills). On top of all, AKP started handing out “child support” in Kurdish provinces (not in Turkish provinces though), which is basically another tool in demographic war against Turks. These are just a few quick things I can think of.

    Unfortunately, Turks can’t express these stuff because if they do they will be labeled as racist immediately, even though these are all facts everyone’s aware of. Also, many educated Turks are Leftists, and for some reason they can’t seem to recognize the difference between being Leftist and being an idiot tool. Among those who wouldn’t mind telling these things, majority lacks knowledge of a foreign language or even when they do, they don’t want to complain foreigners about their country because nationalist Turks think that complaining about your country is self-humiliating (so you will either hear frustrated emotional responses or nothing from them, if you bring up these topics). I know because until I understood Western discourse, I would also remain silent and frustrated when people asked these things to me. So there are very few people to explain what is really going on in Turkey from the perspective of Turks. There really is a long going war against Turkish identity. AKP is a neither nationalist nor represents Turkish interpretation of Islam, they are more akin to Televangelists in America. Their politics is only opportunistic, but lacks any serious intellectual base, thus their policies has no consistency. The only consistency is the degree of harm it causes to Turkey’s foreign and internal affairs.

    I am saddened when these morons are called nationalist or portrayed as if they act for the interests of Turkish people.

    Also as a side note, Mustafa Akyol, like his father, is another intellectual midget and their comments/interpretations of issues related to Turkey are almost always wrong. Yet again, he does not like Turkish militarist or whatever mindset, why? Simple. Because he is not Turkish. They are Abkhazian. Yet another ethnicity stupid Ottomans allowed to migrate to Anatolia. We have a non-Turkish problem in Turkey, from government to media. It’s interesting that the author thinks current situation in Turkey is bad and compares it to the good old Ottoman days, because when I look at it as a Turk, all I see is shitty old days of highly diverse Ottoman Empire when Turks were slaughtered and oppressed at the hands of diverse but largely non-Turkish Ottoman bureaucracy.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Romanian
    This has been a very interesting read.
    , @Bill
    Thank you for that answer. Very interesting.
  92. Yes, it’s very sad. But it could be a lot worse! It used to be that every ten years or so, the government would become so ineffectual, and the corruption so blatant, that the military would have to step in and organize a coup. Every ten years. Turkey would lurch from crisis to crisis.

    At least they’re not suffering through the runaway inflation of the 70′s and 80′s. Or the crippling Leftist-Rightist violence of the 70′s. Ce la vie…

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  93. anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    All I know about Turkey I read in the papers. Wait, I don’t read anything about Turkey. But Google finds some interesting articles:

    “Is this the end of Turkish miracle?”, Al-Monitor, Kerim Karakaya, February 8, 2016:

    “…According to Dani Rodrik, a professor of international political economy at Harvard University, that “miracle” was an illusion all along.

    “A positive external conjuncture on the one hand and Turkey being marketed to foreign countries in a good way on the other hand created the legend of the Turkish economy,” Rodrik told Al-Monitor. “If we were to compare the growth performance to other developing countries, this was a mediocre performance rather than a fantastic one. The growth engine of Turkey has been foreign loans, especially in the past couple of years … instead of gross domestic savings and an increase in productivity.”

    Rodrik emphasized that the rapid growth observed at the initial stage of the AKP rule was caused by credit opportunities, loose global monetary policies and an increase in private sector loans. Growth achieved with government debt in the past has now been replaced by private sector debt.”

    “Ankara’s “Economic Miracle” Collapses”, David P. Goldman, Middle East Quarterly, Winter 2012:

    “…”economic miracle,” …depended on a 40 percent annual rate of bank credit expansion, which in turn produced a balance of payments deficit as wide as that of southern Europe’s crisis countries.

    The stock market has fallen in dollar terms by 40 percent, making Turkey the worst performer after Egypt among all the markets in the MSCI Tradable Index during 2011…

    …Turkey’s predicament follows a well-known pattern of Third World economic crises driven by external imbalances. The impetus behind the country’s recent economic growth has been a stunning rate of credit expansion, which reached 30 percent for households and 40 percent for business in 2011.

    …the four Shari’a-compliant banks (or participation banks), have increased their consumer loans at a much faster rate than the conventional banks…

    …in the year through September 16, 2011, consumer loans by the Islamic banks rose by 53 percent

    …The Islamic banks have lent TRY 5 billion to consumers, about a quarter as much as the commercial banks…

    …recalls the experiences of Argentina in 2000 and Mexico in 1994 where surging external debt produced short-lived bubbles of prosperity, followed by currency devaluations and deep slumps. Both Latin American governments bought popularity by providing cheap consumer credit as did Erdoğan in the months leading up to the June 2011 national election. …

    …Although its universities train some excellent engineers and managers, the population as a whole is poorly educated in comparison with other middle-upper income countries. Only 26 percent of Turkish children graduate secondary school, compared to 44 percent in Mexico…

    …A fifth of Turkish marriages are consanguineous (to first or second cousins), about the same level as in Egypt.”

    Sounds like the Gulf States and the West were propping the place up for political and security reasons?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    The mid-2000s Turkey benefited economically from Greece being wildly expensive due to the Euro. The Turkish Riviera was pretty reasonably priced in 2009. I figured it was about 2/3rd as expensive as, say, Santa Barbara or North San Diego County and maybe 1/2 as expensive as Greek islands a few miles offshore.
  94. @anonymous
    All I know about Turkey I read in the papers. Wait, I don't read anything about Turkey. But Google finds some interesting articles:

    "Is this the end of Turkish miracle?", Al-Monitor, Kerim Karakaya, February 8, 2016:


    "...According to Dani Rodrik, a professor of international political economy at Harvard University, that "miracle" was an illusion all along.

    "A positive external conjuncture on the one hand and Turkey being marketed to foreign countries in a good way on the other hand created the legend of the Turkish economy," Rodrik told Al-Monitor. "If we were to compare the growth performance to other developing countries, this was a mediocre performance rather than a fantastic one. The growth engine of Turkey has been foreign loans, especially in the past couple of years ... instead of gross domestic savings and an increase in productivity."

    Rodrik emphasized that the rapid growth observed at the initial stage of the AKP rule was caused by credit opportunities, loose global monetary policies and an increase in private sector loans. Growth achieved with government debt in the past has now been replaced by private sector debt."

     

    "Ankara's "Economic Miracle" Collapses", David P. Goldman, Middle East Quarterly, Winter 2012:


    "..."economic miracle," ...depended on a 40 percent annual rate of bank credit expansion, which in turn produced a balance of payments deficit as wide as that of southern Europe's crisis countries.

    The stock market has fallen in dollar terms by 40 percent, making Turkey the worst performer after Egypt among all the markets in the MSCI Tradable Index during 2011...

    ...Turkey's predicament follows a well-known pattern of Third World economic crises driven by external imbalances. The impetus behind the country's recent economic growth has been a stunning rate of credit expansion, which reached 30 percent for households and 40 percent for business in 2011.

    ...the four Shari'a-compliant banks (or participation banks), have increased their consumer loans at a much faster rate than the conventional banks...

    ...in the year through September 16, 2011, consumer loans by the Islamic banks rose by 53 percent...

    ...The Islamic banks have lent TRY 5 billion to consumers, about a quarter as much as the commercial banks...

    ...recalls the experiences of Argentina in 2000 and Mexico in 1994 where surging external debt produced short-lived bubbles of prosperity, followed by currency devaluations and deep slumps. Both Latin American governments bought popularity by providing cheap consumer credit as did Erdoğan in the months leading up to the June 2011 national election. ...

    ...Although its universities train some excellent engineers and managers, the population as a whole is poorly educated in comparison with other middle-upper income countries. Only 26 percent of Turkish children graduate secondary school, compared to 44 percent in Mexico...

    ...A fifth of Turkish marriages are consanguineous (to first or second cousins), about the same level as in Egypt."

     

    Sounds like the Gulf States and the West were propping the place up for political and security reasons?

    The mid-2000s Turkey benefited economically from Greece being wildly expensive due to the Euro. The Turkish Riviera was pretty reasonably priced in 2009. I figured it was about 2/3rd as expensive as, say, Santa Barbara or North San Diego County and maybe 1/2 as expensive as Greek islands a few miles offshore.

    Read More
  95. I don’t doubt that Mustafa Akyol is a nice guy but I think you’re off the mark about his views on Turkey. If you have read his columns in the past years on hurriyetdailynews.com you will find that he was arselicking Erdogan until only a few months ago.

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  96. @Laplace
    He said that he is Georgian and his wife is Arab around 12 years ago, now he claims to be Turkish. Even if he was Turkish though, his and AKP's ideology not even remotely close to Turkish nationalism. Nowadays they appear more nationalist, only because their stupid negotiations with terrorists came to halt and PKK attempted to start a civil war in Southeast Turkey (thanks to all guns, bombs and terrorists they stocked in cities during 'peace negotiations'), and because of these developments nationalism started to rise in Turkey.

    In fact, many of core founders of AKP are not only Kurdish, but they were also Kurdish nationalists. So for years, they were effective in AKP policies and did their best to discourage Turks and encourage Kurds in social and political life. The situation is sort of similar to how whites can't say anything against any group in USA (without serious consequences) but anyone can say anything against whites. PKK sympathizers also create intellectual terror, as well as physical violence in many public universities as well, there are students who are murdered/seriously injured by terrorists in universities for being Turkish nationalist. Media underreport these incidents, always with same title: "Students of Opposite Views Clashed." Kurds are also notorious for destroying public property, not paying utilities or taxes (because of illegal use of utilities, Turks have to pay "Cost of Loss/Illegal Use" in their bills). On top of all, AKP started handing out "child support" in Kurdish provinces (not in Turkish provinces though), which is basically another tool in demographic war against Turks. These are just a few quick things I can think of.

    Unfortunately, Turks can't express these stuff because if they do they will be labeled as racist immediately, even though these are all facts everyone's aware of. Also, many educated Turks are Leftists, and for some reason they can't seem to recognize the difference between being Leftist and being an idiot tool. Among those who wouldn't mind telling these things, majority lacks knowledge of a foreign language or even when they do, they don't want to complain foreigners about their country because nationalist Turks think that complaining about your country is self-humiliating (so you will either hear frustrated emotional responses or nothing from them, if you bring up these topics). I know because until I understood Western discourse, I would also remain silent and frustrated when people asked these things to me. So there are very few people to explain what is really going on in Turkey from the perspective of Turks. There really is a long going war against Turkish identity. AKP is a neither nationalist nor represents Turkish interpretation of Islam, they are more akin to Televangelists in America. Their politics is only opportunistic, but lacks any serious intellectual base, thus their policies has no consistency. The only consistency is the degree of harm it causes to Turkey's foreign and internal affairs.

    I am saddened when these morons are called nationalist or portrayed as if they act for the interests of Turkish people.

    Also as a side note, Mustafa Akyol, like his father, is another intellectual midget and their comments/interpretations of issues related to Turkey are almost always wrong. Yet again, he does not like Turkish militarist or whatever mindset, why? Simple. Because he is not Turkish. They are Abkhazian. Yet another ethnicity stupid Ottomans allowed to migrate to Anatolia. We have a non-Turkish problem in Turkey, from government to media. It's interesting that the author thinks current situation in Turkey is bad and compares it to the good old Ottoman days, because when I look at it as a Turk, all I see is shitty old days of highly diverse Ottoman Empire when Turks were slaughtered and oppressed at the hands of diverse but largely non-Turkish Ottoman bureaucracy.

    This has been a very interesting read.

    Read More
  97. @Laplace
    He said that he is Georgian and his wife is Arab around 12 years ago, now he claims to be Turkish. Even if he was Turkish though, his and AKP's ideology not even remotely close to Turkish nationalism. Nowadays they appear more nationalist, only because their stupid negotiations with terrorists came to halt and PKK attempted to start a civil war in Southeast Turkey (thanks to all guns, bombs and terrorists they stocked in cities during 'peace negotiations'), and because of these developments nationalism started to rise in Turkey.

    In fact, many of core founders of AKP are not only Kurdish, but they were also Kurdish nationalists. So for years, they were effective in AKP policies and did their best to discourage Turks and encourage Kurds in social and political life. The situation is sort of similar to how whites can't say anything against any group in USA (without serious consequences) but anyone can say anything against whites. PKK sympathizers also create intellectual terror, as well as physical violence in many public universities as well, there are students who are murdered/seriously injured by terrorists in universities for being Turkish nationalist. Media underreport these incidents, always with same title: "Students of Opposite Views Clashed." Kurds are also notorious for destroying public property, not paying utilities or taxes (because of illegal use of utilities, Turks have to pay "Cost of Loss/Illegal Use" in their bills). On top of all, AKP started handing out "child support" in Kurdish provinces (not in Turkish provinces though), which is basically another tool in demographic war against Turks. These are just a few quick things I can think of.

    Unfortunately, Turks can't express these stuff because if they do they will be labeled as racist immediately, even though these are all facts everyone's aware of. Also, many educated Turks are Leftists, and for some reason they can't seem to recognize the difference between being Leftist and being an idiot tool. Among those who wouldn't mind telling these things, majority lacks knowledge of a foreign language or even when they do, they don't want to complain foreigners about their country because nationalist Turks think that complaining about your country is self-humiliating (so you will either hear frustrated emotional responses or nothing from them, if you bring up these topics). I know because until I understood Western discourse, I would also remain silent and frustrated when people asked these things to me. So there are very few people to explain what is really going on in Turkey from the perspective of Turks. There really is a long going war against Turkish identity. AKP is a neither nationalist nor represents Turkish interpretation of Islam, they are more akin to Televangelists in America. Their politics is only opportunistic, but lacks any serious intellectual base, thus their policies has no consistency. The only consistency is the degree of harm it causes to Turkey's foreign and internal affairs.

    I am saddened when these morons are called nationalist or portrayed as if they act for the interests of Turkish people.

    Also as a side note, Mustafa Akyol, like his father, is another intellectual midget and their comments/interpretations of issues related to Turkey are almost always wrong. Yet again, he does not like Turkish militarist or whatever mindset, why? Simple. Because he is not Turkish. They are Abkhazian. Yet another ethnicity stupid Ottomans allowed to migrate to Anatolia. We have a non-Turkish problem in Turkey, from government to media. It's interesting that the author thinks current situation in Turkey is bad and compares it to the good old Ottoman days, because when I look at it as a Turk, all I see is shitty old days of highly diverse Ottoman Empire when Turks were slaughtered and oppressed at the hands of diverse but largely non-Turkish Ottoman bureaucracy.

    Thank you for that answer. Very interesting.

    Read More

Comments are closed.

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