The Unz Review: An Alternative Media Selection
A Collection of Interesting, Important, and Controversial Perspectives Largely Excluded from the American Mainstream Media
 TeasersiSteve Blog
What Happened the Last Time Liberals Were in Charge of Public Safety
🔊 Listen RSS
Email This Page to Someone

 Remember My Information



=>

Bookmark Toggle AllToCAdd to LibraryRemove from Library • BShow CommentNext New CommentNext New ReplyRead More
ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
AgreeDisagreeLOLTroll
These buttons register your public Agreement, Disagreement, Troll, or LOL with the selected comment. They are ONLY available to recent, frequent commenters who have saved their Name+Email using the 'Remember My Information' checkbox, and may also ONLY be used once per hour.
Ignore Commenter Follow Commenter
Search Text Case Sensitive  Exact Words  Include Comments
List of Bookmarks

Screenshot 2017-06-03 11.39.40

Dashed line is institutionalization rate (prison + asylum), solid line is homicide rate. First year is 1928, last year 2000. Crossover points are c. 1936 (homicides falling), c. 1968 (homicides rising), and c. 1996 (homicides falling).

Most news media coverage you read about how we must End Mass Incarceration Now starts with the factoid that crime is down since 1990, since it would be bad for The Narrative to start with, say, the old America of the JFK Administration. The huge LBJ Administration growth in crime that began during the peak of the Warren Court and the Great Society is, apparently, lost in the mists of time.

After all, who has ever heard of an obscure era known as The Sixties? Legend has it that there was once a rare group known as the Baby Boomers who were said to occasionally speak of The Sixties, but they apparently left no records behind.

But the graph above shows liberal policies of cutting imprisonment rates and shutting down mental asylums appears to have led to the big ugly X in the middle of the graph as the institutionalization rate fell and the homicide rate soared in the second half of the 1960s.

From the Texas Law Review:

From the Asylum to the Prison: Rethinking the Incarceration Revolution

Bernard E. Harcourt

Professor, U. of Chicago Law School
84 Tex. L. Rev. 1751 2005-2006

… When the data on mental hospitalization rates are combined with the data on imprisonment rates for the period 1928 through 2000, the incarceration revolution of the late twentieth century barely reaches the level of aggregated institutionalization that the United States experienced at mid-century. The highest rate of aggregated institutionalization during the entire period occurred in 1955 when almost 640 persons per 100,000 adults over age 15 were institutionalized in asylums, mental hospitals,and state and federal prisons.

Equally surprising, the trend for aggregated institutionalization reflects a mirror image of the national homicide rate during the period 1928 through 2000. Using a Prais-Winsten regression model that corrects for autocorrelation in time-series data, and holding constant three leading structural covariates of homicide, this Article finds a large, statistically significant, and robust relationship between aggregated institutionalization and homicide rates.

Thanks to Jim Trussels for calling my attention to this graph.

 
Hide 91 CommentsLeave a Comment
Commenters to Ignore...to FollowEndorsed Only
Trim Comments?
  1. • Replies: @Anon7
    Not so OT.

    I don't doubt that there can be an emotional brain consequence to poverty ("Poverty, they argue, exacts a mental tax akin to lowering a person’s IQ" from the article you quoted). But the concentration of people with low IQ is probably the real problem in inner city schools when it comes to achieving success, which is increasingly tied to higher IQ.

    It's a bad problem. Prior to the 1960's, black people (and poor white people) imitated successful white people, imitating their manner of dress, attending church, encouraging children to do well in school. Now, though, encouraging kids with 80 IQ to do these things sounds like some kind of cargo cult exercise, as far as the success rate is concerned. (If only there was a way to get the jobs away from illegal immigrants, and reward diligence with jobs...)

    Back on the topic, I've been thinking that our inner cities are places where we are breeding a group of people who can thrive there - the ones who do best are the ones who like the violence, they like the lawlessness, they like the drug experiences, the women like being single heads of household who get regular checks from the government, the men like fathering lots of different kids for whom they have no responsibility, etc. Brief prison terms are exactly like graduate school for the higher IQ types. (Isn't it nice of us to pay "tuition"?) They don't pay the "emotional tax of poverty" that liberals talk about, because they are adapted to their environment. Lacking a frontier, we've created them for this group of people who chafe at societal restrictions.

    Put them in prison for life, or put them in inner cities and don't provide mass transit to the suburbs. Take your pick.
    , @415 reasons
    Lol'd at the "Poverty is a mental tax that lowers IQ" line. Could IQ be the mysterious third variable beyond either attitude or income that has much more predictive power to future success? Could there be some other mysterious variable correlated with IQ that varies across U.S. regions? Could there be some difference between the U.S. and the rest of the wealthy world that leads to more regional diversify of IQ?
  2. This is very dangerous stuff. That graph implies that humanity needs to remove a sizeable proportion of its population (the criminal groups) from exposure to the main body. In the Middle Ages before society was rich enough to afford life long incarceration presumably the criminals or suspected criminals were simply killed.

    Liberals often exclaim in horror that the United States incarcerates more people than any other society. This graph suggests that the US is simply more evolved than other nations. This graph suggests that the natural order of things is for a society to breed as many as it can and then kill off the excess. Recently we have merely locked them up.

    If this interpretation is correct there is an excellent case to be made for a routine culling of the antisocial elements in society. In the last century Hitler and Stalin seemed to hold that view. In America locking up criminals means in large part, locking up black people. This graph will be seen by Democrats as a justification for genocide.

    Dangerous stuff.

    • Replies: @Logan
    The peculiar part of this is that all these issues are so dominated by race. If criminality, intelligence, etc. were evenly distributed across ethnic groups, we could discuss them and how to effectively deal with them intelligently.

    Since they aren't, we can't.
    , @Roderick Spode
    What this graph suggests is that your ancestors should have sent them all back to West Africa at the end of the Civil War, or at least to the Caribbean like Lincoln wanted.

    Perhaps I need a pretty black girl to sing my publicly unacceptable thoughts, the way Dave Chapelle had a pretty white girl for his (demonstrably acceptable) ones.
    http://www.cc.com/video-clips/i3vs6y/chappelle-s-show-pretty-white-girl-sings-dave-s-thoughts---uncensored


    In the Middle Ages before society was rich enough to afford life long incarceration presumably the criminals or suspected criminals were simply killed.
     
    No. Most children didn't make it to adulthood because there were no antibiotics. There's your magical population-control mechanism. Criminals were killed, horribly, often in public (something we should totally re-instate here and now, BTW) but there was no large body of anti-social individuals to vex the government because there was no large body of any type of individual.
    , @NOTA
    White Americans are way more violent than white Western Europeans from other countries. I assume this is a cultural difference, but maybe it's genetic, too. We have had many years of really fast expansion of population--maybe the super aggressive guys were the ones who mostly won those competitions. Or maybe the same tendency that made you bet your life on a one-way ticket to the US or a chance to homestead some remote bit of ground surrounded by hostile Indians selected for violent tendencies.
    , @Charles Erwin Wilson

    If this interpretation is correct there is an excellent case to be made for a routine culling of the antisocial elements in society.
     
    If you are correct Democrats and a wide swath of Republicans qualify as "antisocial elements in society" Should we follow the dictates of this logic? No. Killing sheep does not replace the shepherd.
  3. A certain percentage of Blacks commit most of the violent crime that is committed by Blacks. Institutionalize this cohort of Blacks and the Black crime rate will go down.

    If you could stop all the violent crime committed by Blacks and Mestizos in New York City, you would stop almost all violent crime.

    Suppress The Violent Skunks Now!

    Attorney General Jeff Sessions is doing the right thing in regards to drug crime. The Democrats know it, but they won’t say it. Chappaqua Hillary knows it.

    • Replies: @Lex
    Big problem is that incarceration doesn't stop violent criminals from breeding.
    , @Hippopotamusdrome
    Does this mean there are now going to be security guards patrolling the bridge at night now?


    A certain percentage of Blacks

     

    Like one third.

    1 in 3 Black Men Go To Prison?
  4. NOTA says:

    So at first glance, it looks like emptying out of insane asylums (done for a mix of humanitarian, budget, and civil liberties reasons) mostly just replaced insane asylums with prisons. If that’s true, it’s about the most depressing story of well-intentioned policies backfiring you can imagine.

    From the Washington Post’s page summarizing police shootings, about 25% of people who get shot by the cops are having some kind of mental health crisis, so I guess instead of institutionalizing them we kill a few off, too. What a depressing story!

    • Replies: @fitzGetty
    ... the policies are not well intentioned - they are malicious, malign, selfserving, short term ...
    , @Judah Benjamin Hur
    I'm very sympathetic to many well-intentioned 1960s policies. I was only alive at the very end of the 60s, but I sort-of default to the Gene Roddenberry worldview until my brain kicks in. However, I'm not sympathetic to ignoring 50+ years of data that proves a lot of the 60s ideas were bunk, or at least need serious modification. I'm also convinced that some acknowledgement of HBD issues are necessary.
    , @Elli
    Riker's Island is said to be the largest mental hospital in New York State, Cook County jail the largest mental hospital in the country.

    Hospital meaning holding ground, with a few pills offered, which can be sold for e-cigs or snacks.

    , @Pericles
    Now bask in the clarity that breaks on the horizon when you replace 'well-intentioned' with 'irresponsible'. It can be done quite often.
  5. criminals in prison= lower murder rate ……criminals out of prison=higher murder rate…..so simple even a small child could understand it.

    • Replies: @fitzGetty
    But - metro leftists are not small children - their agenda is other ...
    , @415 reasons
    The NYT taught me it is a paradox that more people are in prison DESPITE a decrease in the crime rate...
  6. @NOTA
    So at first glance, it looks like emptying out of insane asylums (done for a mix of humanitarian, budget, and civil liberties reasons) mostly just replaced insane asylums with prisons. If that's true, it's about the most depressing story of well-intentioned policies backfiring you can imagine.

    From the Washington Post's page summarizing police shootings, about 25% of people who get shot by the cops are having some kind of mental health crisis, so I guess instead of institutionalizing them we kill a few off, too. What a depressing story!

    … the policies are not well intentioned – they are malicious, malign, selfserving, short term …

  7. @tyrone
    criminals in prison= lower murder rate ……criminals out of prison=higher murder rate…..so simple even a small child could understand it.

    But – metro leftists are not small children – their agenda is other …

  8. Scott Alexander doubts the mental institutions –> prison hypothesis:

    http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/03/07/reverse-voxsplaining-prison-and-mental-illness/

  9. Hillary Clinton Talks Tough On Crime In 1996. Hillary Clinton disaggregated herself from Blacks and Black crime by moving to a gated compound in Chappaqua, New York.

  10. The lines are not quite mirror image; importantly, they are phase-shifted. We can see almost at a glance that the two largest drops in homicide rate started in 1933 and 1991, both just a year into lengthy Democratic presidential rule. But the trend to increasing incarceration substantially precedes both, eg it starts right in 1980 for the recent macro-cycle.

    It takes a conservative to lock ’em up, and a liberal to reap the PR benefit.

    • Replies: @Alec Leamas
    Technically I think we have to give the husband of the smartest woman on Earth some credit for that by passing 1994's VCCLEA, which together with Welfare reform was proposed by Dick Morris to save the Clinton Presidency following the 1994 GOP wave. It was probably against his hippie instincts and cynical but it worked. Of course that was back when Democrats could tell a black rapper to stuff it when she advocated the killing of white people because Democrats thought they needed white votes to win.

    The idea of taking drug dealers off the field of battle for the effective balance of their criminal careers (30 years+) with long mandatory minimums and consequently reducing their open gunplay and turf wars was a good way to make a near immediate impact on violent crime trends. Ironically, Hipster urban recolonization was made possible by what are now deemed extreme right wing policies (mandatory minimums, more cops and broken windows policing), and so within the successes of anti-crime policies are the seeds of their undoing.

    Of course, since blacks are a larger and more important slice of the new Democrat coalition, chipping away at the reversal of long term reduction in violent crime rates will now become a Democratic party priority under euphemisms like "criminal justice reform" and "ending mass incarceration" to slip it by the remaining liberal suburban soccer moms in the coalition while keeping the focus on cherubic out of date pictures of young black criminals and not the increasing number of dead white girls found in dumpsters.
    , @CJ
    ... drops in homicide rate started in 1933 and 1991, both just a year into lengthy Democratic presidential rule.

    I actually agree that sometimes the longer-term benefits of Republican policies redound to the benefit of Democrats, but George H.W. Bush was President from January 1989 to January 1993. Transition dates were different in F.D. Roosevelt's time; he was inaugurated March 4, 1933.

  11. @Lord Jeff Sessions
    OT: NYT wields Occam's Butterknife

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/30/upshot/ben-carsons-thinking-and-how-poverty-affects-your-state-of-mind.html

    Not so OT.

    I don’t doubt that there can be an emotional brain consequence to poverty (“Poverty, they argue, exacts a mental tax akin to lowering a person’s IQ” from the article you quoted). But the concentration of people with low IQ is probably the real problem in inner city schools when it comes to achieving success, which is increasingly tied to higher IQ.

    It’s a bad problem. Prior to the 1960’s, black people (and poor white people) imitated successful white people, imitating their manner of dress, attending church, encouraging children to do well in school. Now, though, encouraging kids with 80 IQ to do these things sounds like some kind of cargo cult exercise, as far as the success rate is concerned. (If only there was a way to get the jobs away from illegal immigrants, and reward diligence with jobs…)

    Back on the topic, I’ve been thinking that our inner cities are places where we are breeding a group of people who can thrive there – the ones who do best are the ones who like the violence, they like the lawlessness, they like the drug experiences, the women like being single heads of household who get regular checks from the government, the men like fathering lots of different kids for whom they have no responsibility, etc. Brief prison terms are exactly like graduate school for the higher IQ types. (Isn’t it nice of us to pay “tuition”?) They don’t pay the “emotional tax of poverty” that liberals talk about, because they are adapted to their environment. Lacking a frontier, we’ve created them for this group of people who chafe at societal restrictions.

    Put them in prison for life, or put them in inner cities and don’t provide mass transit to the suburbs. Take your pick.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    When are we going to admit that the early 20th century Progressives were right-three generations of imbeciles was enough?
  12. For the entire 20s the Republicans were in charge. So the ’32 high probably belongs to them, although some claim Hoover was a departure from the economic policies of the Harding Coolidge era.

    The problem with all economic analysis is there are so many factors going on, which do you include in your model? Other possible explanations for homicide rates: WWII, Vietnam, The Great Migration (of Blacks to northern cities), the Soviet Union supporting class unrest, ect. I suspect the decline in institutionalization had more to do with budget priorities than sociology theories. Left unsaid would be jailing people because we have extra tax money, or releasing prisoners because we cannot afford to pay government pensions would be unacceptable.

    Maine Gov.: Released Inmates Could Fill Jobs
    http://www.officer.com/news/12340092/maine-gov-released-inmates-could-fill-jobs

    See pensiontsunami.com for links to the future government pension crisis.

    • Replies: @neprof
    Prohibition (1920-1933) could be a major reason the solid line was so high in the late '20s.
    , @Joe Schmoe
    We need to ask about the victims of the homicides. When incarceration goes down, who do the murderers kill? Right now, we don't catch all the murderers and they continue killing. http://heyjackass.com/ reports an 11% rate of charging a suspect in a murder case. It also reports that victims are overwhelmingly male, 82%. And overwhelmingly black, 204 of 260. Hispanic 36, and white 6. This is in a city that is 45% white.

    Bottom line, the streets are more dangerous than prison. For those who want a death penalty, we have got it in spades, albeit with extreme collateral damage. Were the murderers imprisoned, they would be safer.
  13. “equally surprising”

    What is this? Learned cluelessness? The effects of brainwashing? Satire?

  14. @Pat Boyle
    This is very dangerous stuff. That graph implies that humanity needs to remove a sizeable proportion of its population (the criminal groups) from exposure to the main body. In the Middle Ages before society was rich enough to afford life long incarceration presumably the criminals or suspected criminals were simply killed.

    Liberals often exclaim in horror that the United States incarcerates more people than any other society. This graph suggests that the US is simply more evolved than other nations. This graph suggests that the natural order of things is for a society to breed as many as it can and then kill off the excess. Recently we have merely locked them up.

    If this interpretation is correct there is an excellent case to be made for a routine culling of the antisocial elements in society. In the last century Hitler and Stalin seemed to hold that view. In America locking up criminals means in large part, locking up black people. This graph will be seen by Democrats as a justification for genocide.

    Dangerous stuff.

    The peculiar part of this is that all these issues are so dominated by race. If criminality, intelligence, etc. were evenly distributed across ethnic groups, we could discuss them and how to effectively deal with them intelligently.

    Since they aren’t, we can’t.

    • Agree: Kevin C.
  15. I rather thought this post would have something to do with the French Revolution…

  16. The biggest problem right now is the Koch wing of the Republican party is pushing soft on crime policies. Without a united front against liberal insanity, things are pretty hopeless.

  17. @Jack Highlands
    The lines are not quite mirror image; importantly, they are phase-shifted. We can see almost at a glance that the two largest drops in homicide rate started in 1933 and 1991, both just a year into lengthy Democratic presidential rule. But the trend to increasing incarceration substantially precedes both, eg it starts right in 1980 for the recent macro-cycle.

    It takes a conservative to lock 'em up, and a liberal to reap the PR benefit.

    Technically I think we have to give the husband of the smartest woman on Earth some credit for that by passing 1994’s VCCLEA, which together with Welfare reform was proposed by Dick Morris to save the Clinton Presidency following the 1994 GOP wave. It was probably against his hippie instincts and cynical but it worked. Of course that was back when Democrats could tell a black rapper to stuff it when she advocated the killing of white people because Democrats thought they needed white votes to win.

    The idea of taking drug dealers off the field of battle for the effective balance of their criminal careers (30 years+) with long mandatory minimums and consequently reducing their open gunplay and turf wars was a good way to make a near immediate impact on violent crime trends. Ironically, Hipster urban recolonization was made possible by what are now deemed extreme right wing policies (mandatory minimums, more cops and broken windows policing), and so within the successes of anti-crime policies are the seeds of their undoing.

    Of course, since blacks are a larger and more important slice of the new Democrat coalition, chipping away at the reversal of long term reduction in violent crime rates will now become a Democratic party priority under euphemisms like “criminal justice reform” and “ending mass incarceration” to slip it by the remaining liberal suburban soccer moms in the coalition while keeping the focus on cherubic out of date pictures of young black criminals and not the increasing number of dead white girls found in dumpsters.

    • Replies: @Flip
    It is the black aldermen in Chicago who are opposed to increasing penalties for having illegal guns in an effort to reduce the murder rate as they say it would put more black men in jail.
  18. @NOTA
    So at first glance, it looks like emptying out of insane asylums (done for a mix of humanitarian, budget, and civil liberties reasons) mostly just replaced insane asylums with prisons. If that's true, it's about the most depressing story of well-intentioned policies backfiring you can imagine.

    From the Washington Post's page summarizing police shootings, about 25% of people who get shot by the cops are having some kind of mental health crisis, so I guess instead of institutionalizing them we kill a few off, too. What a depressing story!

    I’m very sympathetic to many well-intentioned 1960s policies. I was only alive at the very end of the 60s, but I sort-of default to the Gene Roddenberry worldview until my brain kicks in. However, I’m not sympathetic to ignoring 50+ years of data that proves a lot of the 60s ideas were bunk, or at least need serious modification. I’m also convinced that some acknowledgement of HBD issues are necessary.

    • Agree: reiner Tor
    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    I used to be a liberal, but I always strived to understand reality. It's evil to ignore reality in the pursuit of a failed ideology, as it will always lead to enormous suffering, no matter how good the original intentions were.
    , @Anonymous White Male
    Actually, what are the policies from the 1960's that you are still sympathetic to? Legalization of pot? Indiscriminate sex? Mass non-White immigration legislation? The only one I still have any respect for is some of the music from that era. Not the self-righteous, preachy, we know better than you, but some of the greatest popular music of all time.
  19. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    If you ask a lot of conservatives, they’ll tell you that the solution to today’s problems is to return to the values of the 1950s. What this chart shows you is that no matter how conservative or liberal the professed values might be, some people just aren’t equipped to handle everyday life in this society. You can preach the gospel of steady jobs and two-parent families until you pass out and fall over; for a certain section of the populace, it’s just not going to take root. You can lock ’em up and throw away the key. You can castigate and ostracize the freeloaders. And at the end of the day, they are not going to adapt themselves to the job-marriage-mortgage regimen.

    • Agree: Old fogey
    • Replies: @anonymous
    Years ago I heard a retired judge--a Federal judge I think--make essentially the same point: that there are whole classes of people who are simply ill-equipped to live in a civilized society. He recommended that they be shipped to internment camps in the woods etc. Of course, he could afford to say this because he had already retired. Had he said this while active, he wouldn't have been on the bench very long. No sirree!
  20. But increased institutionalization means disproportionately more non-white people get institutionalized.

    Which is disparate impact.

    Because racism.

    Even though races don’t exist.

    The answer is to move those violent and crazy people out to the suburbs, where magic dirt and Wonderbread will make them all better.

    This has the additional benefit of clearing out those nice, urban neighborhoods, so rich, gay Democrats can gentrify them.

    And if those violent and crazy people continue to be violent and crazy, then it will be the fault of their white, suburban neighbors.

    Which is disparate impact.

    Because racism.

    • LOL: Forbes
    • Replies: @Forbes
    Funny cuz it's true...
    , @Charles Erwin Wilson
    Center shot!
  21. @NOTA
    So at first glance, it looks like emptying out of insane asylums (done for a mix of humanitarian, budget, and civil liberties reasons) mostly just replaced insane asylums with prisons. If that's true, it's about the most depressing story of well-intentioned policies backfiring you can imagine.

    From the Washington Post's page summarizing police shootings, about 25% of people who get shot by the cops are having some kind of mental health crisis, so I guess instead of institutionalizing them we kill a few off, too. What a depressing story!

    Riker’s Island is said to be the largest mental hospital in New York State, Cook County jail the largest mental hospital in the country.

    Hospital meaning holding ground, with a few pills offered, which can be sold for e-cigs or snacks.

    • Replies: @FKA Max
    Institutionalized: Mental Health Behind Bars

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fQ50a-m92Y
  22. @Buzz Mohawk
    But increased institutionalization means disproportionately more non-white people get institutionalized.

    Which is disparate impact.

    Because racism.

    Even though races don't exist.

    The answer is to move those violent and crazy people out to the suburbs, where magic dirt and Wonderbread will make them all better.

    This has the additional benefit of clearing out those nice, urban neighborhoods, so rich, gay Democrats can gentrify them.

    And if those violent and crazy people continue to be violent and crazy, then it will be the fault of their white, suburban neighbors.

    Which is disparate impact.

    Because racism.

    Funny cuz it’s true…

  23. OT: Welfare applicant in Augusta, Maine is denied benefits so he spreads bedbugs in city hall. If glorious diversity is not involved with this story, I will be stunned. Any area that has had an influx of East Africans has also seen an increase in bed bugs.

    http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/disgruntled-maine-man-unleashes-100-bedbugs-augusta-city-hall-article-1.3218117

    • Replies: @Old fogey
    Another glorious benefit of diversity is nits in children's hair. Teachers are now being told that they should announce that no one is to blame and that it doesn't mean that anyone is dirtier than any other if certain children bring lice to school in their hair.

    When I was in school in the benighted 1940s and 1950s in Brooklyn and Queens we started every school year with the school nurse testing each child's head for lice. Never once was any found. This new crop of "migrants" seem to carry a few extra "benefits" with them. . . Not their fault, of course; never their fault.
  24. Thanks! I’ve been looking all over for a graph like that. Good to have the formal analysis as well. This one is bookmarked.

  25. @Pat Boyle
    This is very dangerous stuff. That graph implies that humanity needs to remove a sizeable proportion of its population (the criminal groups) from exposure to the main body. In the Middle Ages before society was rich enough to afford life long incarceration presumably the criminals or suspected criminals were simply killed.

    Liberals often exclaim in horror that the United States incarcerates more people than any other society. This graph suggests that the US is simply more evolved than other nations. This graph suggests that the natural order of things is for a society to breed as many as it can and then kill off the excess. Recently we have merely locked them up.

    If this interpretation is correct there is an excellent case to be made for a routine culling of the antisocial elements in society. In the last century Hitler and Stalin seemed to hold that view. In America locking up criminals means in large part, locking up black people. This graph will be seen by Democrats as a justification for genocide.

    Dangerous stuff.

    What this graph suggests is that your ancestors should have sent them all back to West Africa at the end of the Civil War, or at least to the Caribbean like Lincoln wanted.

    Perhaps I need a pretty black girl to sing my publicly unacceptable thoughts, the way Dave Chapelle had a pretty white girl for his (demonstrably acceptable) ones.
    http://www.cc.com/video-clips/i3vs6y/chappelle-s-show-pretty-white-girl-sings-dave-s-thoughts—uncensored

    In the Middle Ages before society was rich enough to afford life long incarceration presumably the criminals or suspected criminals were simply killed.

    No. Most children didn’t make it to adulthood because there were no antibiotics. There’s your magical population-control mechanism. Criminals were killed, horribly, often in public (something we should totally re-instate here and now, BTW) but there was no large body of anti-social individuals to vex the government because there was no large body of any type of individual.

    • Replies: @Pat Boyle
    I had never seen a Dave Chapelle routine before. Everyone says how funny he is.
  26. For each item, assessors — psychologists or psychiatrists — assign a score of zero (the item doesn’t apply), one (the item applies in some respects), or two (the item applies in most respects). The maximum possible score is forty, and the boundary for clinical psychopathy hovers around thirty. Last year, the average score for all incarcerated male offenders in North America was 23.3. Hare guesses his own score would be about four or five.
    […]
    So many of these awkward questions would vanish if only there were a functioning treatment program for psychopathy. But there isn’t. In fact, several studies have shown that existing treatment makes criminal psychopaths worse. In one, psychopaths who underwent social-skills and anger-management training before release had an 82 percent reconviction rate. Psychopaths who didn’t take the program had a 59 percent reconviction rate. Conventional psychotherapy starts with the assumption that a patient wants to change, but psychopaths are usually perfectly happy as they are. They enrol[l] in such programs to improve their chances of parole. “These guys learn the words but not the music,” Hare says. “They can repeat all the psychiatric jargon — ‘I feel remorse,’ they talk about the offence cycle — but these are words, hollow words.”

    http://www.unz.com/jthompson/pavlov-nowhere/#comment-1744223

    Professionals: What do you do if you learn your patient is likely a Psychopath?

    • Replies: @Harry Baldwin
    One of the interesting developments in the penultimate episode of The Sopranos was when Jennifer Melfi, Tony's therapist throughout the series, realizes that all she is doing is enabling his psychopathy. The realization stems from an actual article published by psychiatrists Samuel Yochelson and Stanton Samenow and is demonstrated by the way Tony applies Melfi's advice in several instances.

    Interestingly, in media discussions after the episode aired, many therapists expressed disapproval of Melfi's decision to stop treating Tony.
  27. @NOTA
    So at first glance, it looks like emptying out of insane asylums (done for a mix of humanitarian, budget, and civil liberties reasons) mostly just replaced insane asylums with prisons. If that's true, it's about the most depressing story of well-intentioned policies backfiring you can imagine.

    From the Washington Post's page summarizing police shootings, about 25% of people who get shot by the cops are having some kind of mental health crisis, so I guess instead of institutionalizing them we kill a few off, too. What a depressing story!

    Now bask in the clarity that breaks on the horizon when you replace ‘well-intentioned’ with ‘irresponsible’. It can be done quite often.

  28. @Judah Benjamin Hur
    I'm very sympathetic to many well-intentioned 1960s policies. I was only alive at the very end of the 60s, but I sort-of default to the Gene Roddenberry worldview until my brain kicks in. However, I'm not sympathetic to ignoring 50+ years of data that proves a lot of the 60s ideas were bunk, or at least need serious modification. I'm also convinced that some acknowledgement of HBD issues are necessary.

    I used to be a liberal, but I always strived to understand reality. It’s evil to ignore reality in the pursuit of a failed ideology, as it will always lead to enormous suffering, no matter how good the original intentions were.

  29. @Elli
    Riker's Island is said to be the largest mental hospital in New York State, Cook County jail the largest mental hospital in the country.

    Hospital meaning holding ground, with a few pills offered, which can be sold for e-cigs or snacks.

    Institutionalized: Mental Health Behind Bars

  30. The great trough in the violent crime curve from the mid-1930s through 1968 also marked the last period in our history during which capital punishment was routinely carried out without a great deal of court-imposed delay. As an example, Giuseppe Zangara, who botched his attempt to shoot Franklin Roosevelt, but hit the mayor of Chicago, Anton Cermak, and four others, on Feb. 15, 1933. Cermak died on March 6, and Zangara, who had already been tried and sentenced to prison for attempted murder, was again brought to trial, this time for the murder of Cermak. He was sentenced to death and electrocuted on March 20. Most capital cases were conducted with comparable expedition. Caryl Chessman, who strung his 1948 case out for 12 years, finally being executed in 1960, was an exception to the rule.

    However, by the mid-1960s, appeals of state capital cases to Federal courts became routine, culminating in Furman v. Georgia (408 U.S. 238), a 1972 ruling that overturned all death penalty legislation then current, effectively imposing a moratorium on capital punishment. While later cases reinstated the death penalty, subsequent jurisprudence has surrounded it with so much restriction and delay that a Chessman-style wait of a dozen years is comparatively short.

    There was a widespread belief in the early 20th century that violent crime could be “hanged out.” The data reported here appear to support that contention.

    It is worth noting that the state of New York once had one of the most stringent death penalty laws in the country. Conviction of first degree murder (including “felony murder,” i.e., killing a person in the course of committing another crime such as armed robbery) carried a mandatory death penalty, which could only be reduced if the governor commuted the sentence. Commutations were rare because they made it possible to accuse the governor of being soft on crime. Sing Sing’s electric chair was for many years the busiest in the United States – and the streets of New York were remarkably safe for its citizens.

    • Replies: @Charles Erwin Wilson
    Yes, yes and yes. But if you want to destroy a society you have to detach the state from its role as a just executioner. Libs will have none of justice, because someone (in theory) will die for the crimes of another.

    Is this true? Well DNA is the total, complete and final word you know; and eyewitness testimony cannot survive the adulterers defense "who are you going to believe, me or your own lying eyes?"

    Liberals are visceral enemies of humanity. From PETA to the judiciary they are misanthropes. Scrape one to three layers of skin off a liberal and you will find Josef Stalin.
  31. @George
    For the entire 20s the Republicans were in charge. So the '32 high probably belongs to them, although some claim Hoover was a departure from the economic policies of the Harding Coolidge era.

    The problem with all economic analysis is there are so many factors going on, which do you include in your model? Other possible explanations for homicide rates: WWII, Vietnam, The Great Migration (of Blacks to northern cities), the Soviet Union supporting class unrest, ect. I suspect the decline in institutionalization had more to do with budget priorities than sociology theories. Left unsaid would be jailing people because we have extra tax money, or releasing prisoners because we cannot afford to pay government pensions would be unacceptable.

    Maine Gov.: Released Inmates Could Fill Jobs
    http://www.officer.com/news/12340092/maine-gov-released-inmates-could-fill-jobs

    See pensiontsunami.com for links to the future government pension crisis.

    Prohibition (1920-1933) could be a major reason the solid line was so high in the late ’20s.

    • Agree: PV van der Byl
  32. eah says:

    Emperor, clothes:

    If New York City were all white, the murder rate would drop by 91 percent, the robbery rate by 81 percent, and the shootings rate by 97 percent…In an all­-white Chicago, murder would decline 90 percent, rape by 81 percent, and robbery by 90 percent.

    OT

    A largely unreported yet gigantic scandal is how politicians all over America have conspired with public unions to strip mine taxpayers:

    Connecticut’s Tax Comeuppance

    Gov. Malloy has spent two terms treating business as a bottomless well of cash to redistribute to public unions…Pension contributions, which have doubled since 2010, will increase by a third over the next two years. The result: a $5.1 billion deficit and three recent credit downgrades.

  33. NOTA says:
    @Pat Boyle
    This is very dangerous stuff. That graph implies that humanity needs to remove a sizeable proportion of its population (the criminal groups) from exposure to the main body. In the Middle Ages before society was rich enough to afford life long incarceration presumably the criminals or suspected criminals were simply killed.

    Liberals often exclaim in horror that the United States incarcerates more people than any other society. This graph suggests that the US is simply more evolved than other nations. This graph suggests that the natural order of things is for a society to breed as many as it can and then kill off the excess. Recently we have merely locked them up.

    If this interpretation is correct there is an excellent case to be made for a routine culling of the antisocial elements in society. In the last century Hitler and Stalin seemed to hold that view. In America locking up criminals means in large part, locking up black people. This graph will be seen by Democrats as a justification for genocide.

    Dangerous stuff.

    White Americans are way more violent than white Western Europeans from other countries. I assume this is a cultural difference, but maybe it’s genetic, too. We have had many years of really fast expansion of population–maybe the super aggressive guys were the ones who mostly won those competitions. Or maybe the same tendency that made you bet your life on a one-way ticket to the US or a chance to homestead some remote bit of ground surrounded by hostile Indians selected for violent tendencies.

    • Replies: @Formerly CARealist
    I was just reading about the Oregonians in the mid 19th c. who were fighting and killing Indians. They were down in California for the gold rush and were encountered by James Tyson, California Physician. He said they were the toughest group of men he saw and were completely outside the law and civilization when it came to killing. They had been fighting in the Cayuse War after some murders and kidnapping by Indians and now felt they had free range to exact revenge on the red man.

    The book, Diary of a Physician in California, by James Tyson is a wonderful read. The Library of Congress has it for free online. If you like history this one's an exciting gem.
    , @Pat Boyle
    I don't doubt your assertion that American whites are more violent than white Europeans. But as I began to fashion a response we have been overtaken by events.

    Apparently terrorists have again hit London. The British have been "turning the other cheek' as a public policy for some time now - not as much as the French perhaps, but still more than we would accept by an American political party.

    I'm a moderate but I feel the impulse for bloody revenge growing in me. I like the British. This angers me. In the period between the two World Wars there was a lot of discussion about the possible unthinkable atrocities that might be visited upon European cities if there were to be another giant European war. They all feared and condemned the ultimate horror that could imagined - bombing of a civilian city from the air.

    But quite soon public opinion transformed. Soon the Germans were bombing London (The Blitz) and there was around the clock bombing of Germany cities - The Americans by day and the British bombers at night. The "tender sensibilities" of the public eroded fast.

    So history suggests that civilian compunctions are soon overcome. We seem to be on course for a campaign to eradicate one or more Near Eastern Muslim nations. The Nazis resorted to massive civilian retaliations once it became obvious that they couldn't uncover the actual perpetrators of the French Resistance attacks. They simply killed any Frenchman they could round up.

    The West seems to be being driven towards a similar policy. It's not nice to contemplate but history suggests that when confronted by terror tactics the defenders are driven towards their own extreme measures.
    , @fnn

    White Americans are way more violent than white Western Europeans from other countries.
     
    IIRC, that's been debunked here before. Scots-Irish-Borderer Americans are more violent than European whites, but not other American whites. See discussions of the Canadian Border Effect.

    P.S. Post-1965 white (?) American populations like Albanians and Chechens are another matter.A handful of Albanians (like the Belushis)were around pre-1965 in case anyone wants to point that out.

  34. I’m sure I’m about to become very popular…

    The big problem is that effectively handling crime requires a nuanced approach, which neither party is capable of producing due to knee-jerk inanity on both sides. The right confuses justice with vengeance. The left forgets that forgiveness is earned, not owed.

    “Just lock ’em up” is a dumb response. Firstly, because prison is not a good disincentive for most criminals. Most criminals have high time preference (high impulsivity, low concern for consequences), so future prison time isn’t much of an impact on their decisions. Secondly, just locking them up is very costly as it costs 10s of thousands per yer per inmate, which likely vastly outstrips the harms they imposed on society to get there. Finally, prison as currently designed generally increases the odds of recidivism, instead of decreasing it. So prison is largely ineffective at preventing crime, expensive, and usually leaves people more prone to future crime then when they went in. Prison, for all but habitual or worst offenders, is dumb. However, ‘tough on crime’ is easy to sell to the masses, hence the continual ratcheting up of prison sentences.

    Yes, the prison system is substituting (poorly) for the reduced mental health system for a lot of people that were utilizing the latter. This is not helped by various quality of life ‘crimes’ such as vagrancy. However, the total volume of people is low compared to the total prison population.

    The problems the left are going to have is that in order for punishment to be effective it has to be both swift and harsh, as well a lot of leftist policies have the ugly side effect of increasing crime (multiculturalism, high minimum wages, licensing, etc). The left will struggle with harsh because it’ll pull at their feelz and too much focus on swift will likely undermine due process. The other struggle for the left is that there are indeed some evil people out there, and as we lack a place to export them to, prison is pretty much the best we can do with them.

    • Replies: @Jus' Sayin'...

    "Secondly, just locking them up is very costly as it costs 10s of thousands per yer per inmate, which likely vastly outstrips the harms they imposed on society to get there."
     
    Cavanagh and Kleiman did a definitive study of your second assertion back in 1990 and to my knowledge it has never been refuted. http://www.botecanalysis.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/BOTEC_A-Cost-Benefit-Analysis-of-Prison-Cell-Construction-and-Alternative-Sanctions_Cavanagh_Mark-Kleiman_for-NIJ_May-June-1990.pdf

    Their conclusion:

    "We estimate that the direct and indirect annual costs of operating a prison cell must fall between the two hypothetical extremes of $22,000 and $61,000. A more reasonable range for these costs is probably $34,000 to $38,000. We also estimate that the crime prevented by using such a cell to lengthen the sentence of a current prisoner by a year would cost between $172,000 and $2,364,000. In other words our lowest estimate of the benefit of operating an additional prison cell for a year ($172,000) is nearly three times higher than the most extreme high estimate of the cost of operating such a cell ($61,000). The lowest estimated benefit is four times as large as a more reasonable estimate of the cost ($38,000). If we use our high estimate of the benefit of operating an additional prison cell for a year the cost-benefit differential is even more favorable. The benefits of operating a prison cell for a year ($2,364,000) are over 37 times as great as the most extreme high estimate of the costs ($61,000). The benefits of operating the cell are 64 times as great as a more reasonable estimate of the costs ($38,000)"
     
    , @TWS
    Just keep them in your neighborhood. I'm sure there will be no ill effects.

    This is one of the dumbest ideas that is easily refuted. The cost of one crime can reach into the hundreds of thousands of dollars. One crime. Not even counting the human costs.
    , @Hyperborean
    You might be interested in this article in The Chronicle of Higher Education:

    http://www.chronicle.com/article/In-Defense-of-Flogging/127208/
  35. Speaking of criminality….
    June 3
    Jacksonville man flashing money on Facebook live arrested on drug charges. Incoherent video included. >>>> http://tinyurl.com/y889ml6l

  36. White Americans are way more violent than white Western Europeans from other countries.

    That’s the perception, but possibly a false one, as the commenters on this blog article suggest. Note also that the ancestors of today’s white Americans aren’t all from Western Europe.

    • Replies: @Clyde

    That’s the perception, but possibly a false one, as the commenters on this blog article suggest. Note also that the ancestors of today’s white Americans aren’t all from Western Europe.
     
    Some of the most solid Americans are those derived from the Christian Arabs from the greater Lebanon, Syria, Iraq (no Middle East national boundaries back then) region who arrived during the great immigration wave 1880-1920. I have met more recent Christian immigrants from Lebanon who are as pale as Frenchmen and even look somewhat French. Two had blue eyes.
    , @Rick Johnsmeyer
    The relevant comparison would be with Belgium's WHITE murder rate; not Belgium's overall murder rate. Here's an interesting state-by-state murder rape map of the US:

    http://i.imgur.com/E2wNWoq.png

    Every single state in the US has a higher murder rate than (for example) Spain's 0.7 per 100,000, Germany's 0.8, or England/Wales's 1.0.

    There is probably a greater propensity for violence among white Americans than modern western white Europeans, though the gap in rates is trivial compared to the black-white gap.
  37. @Alec Leamas
    Technically I think we have to give the husband of the smartest woman on Earth some credit for that by passing 1994's VCCLEA, which together with Welfare reform was proposed by Dick Morris to save the Clinton Presidency following the 1994 GOP wave. It was probably against his hippie instincts and cynical but it worked. Of course that was back when Democrats could tell a black rapper to stuff it when she advocated the killing of white people because Democrats thought they needed white votes to win.

    The idea of taking drug dealers off the field of battle for the effective balance of their criminal careers (30 years+) with long mandatory minimums and consequently reducing their open gunplay and turf wars was a good way to make a near immediate impact on violent crime trends. Ironically, Hipster urban recolonization was made possible by what are now deemed extreme right wing policies (mandatory minimums, more cops and broken windows policing), and so within the successes of anti-crime policies are the seeds of their undoing.

    Of course, since blacks are a larger and more important slice of the new Democrat coalition, chipping away at the reversal of long term reduction in violent crime rates will now become a Democratic party priority under euphemisms like "criminal justice reform" and "ending mass incarceration" to slip it by the remaining liberal suburban soccer moms in the coalition while keeping the focus on cherubic out of date pictures of young black criminals and not the increasing number of dead white girls found in dumpsters.

    It is the black aldermen in Chicago who are opposed to increasing penalties for having illegal guns in an effort to reduce the murder rate as they say it would put more black men in jail.

  38. @Lord Jeff Sessions
    OT: NYT wields Occam's Butterknife

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/30/upshot/ben-carsons-thinking-and-how-poverty-affects-your-state-of-mind.html

    Lol’d at the “Poverty is a mental tax that lowers IQ” line. Could IQ be the mysterious third variable beyond either attitude or income that has much more predictive power to future success? Could there be some other mysterious variable correlated with IQ that varies across U.S. regions? Could there be some difference between the U.S. and the rest of the wealthy world that leads to more regional diversify of IQ?

  39. @NOTA
    White Americans are way more violent than white Western Europeans from other countries. I assume this is a cultural difference, but maybe it's genetic, too. We have had many years of really fast expansion of population--maybe the super aggressive guys were the ones who mostly won those competitions. Or maybe the same tendency that made you bet your life on a one-way ticket to the US or a chance to homestead some remote bit of ground surrounded by hostile Indians selected for violent tendencies.

    I was just reading about the Oregonians in the mid 19th c. who were fighting and killing Indians. They were down in California for the gold rush and were encountered by James Tyson, California Physician. He said they were the toughest group of men he saw and were completely outside the law and civilization when it came to killing. They had been fighting in the Cayuse War after some murders and kidnapping by Indians and now felt they had free range to exact revenge on the red man.

    The book, Diary of a Physician in California, by James Tyson is a wonderful read. The Library of Congress has it for free online. If you like history this one’s an exciting gem.

  40. @tyrone
    criminals in prison= lower murder rate ……criminals out of prison=higher murder rate…..so simple even a small child could understand it.

    The NYT taught me it is a paradox that more people are in prison DESPITE a decrease in the crime rate…

    • Replies: @Old fogey
    Yes, as a faithful NYT reader, I can vouch that the writers have absolutely no ability to look at the numbers and drawn the obvious conclusion.
  41. ” Secondly, just locking them up is very costly as it costs 10s of thousands per yer per inmate, which likely vastly outstrips the harms they imposed on society to get there.”

    To me this is the point where your argument breaks down.

    There are lots of criminals, at least we can identify lots of broad categories. Some actually have productive careers on the outside where they can support themselves except for that drug problem or pedophilia thing.

    But there are a bunch of them that are… totally useless? They are just plain not going to ever be able to hold down a job (or probably get hired in the first place if anyone knows about them). They get transfer payments from the government either directly or via a girlfriend, mother, you name it.

    Basically you are paying for them in prison or out, your choice. And they inevitably get in trouble and locked up – again, and again, and again.

    It’s not something I like, but it appears to be true. There is a large group of people who are just plain totally unfit to fit into this society (any society we’d call functional honestly). It’s a cynical thought, but I’d wager you could talk to a neighborhood cop, or anyone in a neighborhood if they are being honest, and identify people who are just going to keep getting in trouble, and will never be a benefit to society or one of their children – ever.

    And then you have to consider two possible societies: 1) Where you lock them up and warehouse them in perpetuity or 2) Do what we did in the 70’s and 80’s.

    Thing is, you don’t get to consider their rights. You can, but you have to consider the rights of the old lady on the corner who might get raped and robbed because this guy wasn’t languishing in prison before you even think about his rights.

    I guess it depends on whether you think a possible crime is a statistical certainty if a certain individual wanders the streets for any amount of time.

  42. After all, who has ever heard of an obscure era known as The Sixties? Legend has it that there was once a rare group known as the Baby Boomers who were said to occasionally speak of The Sixties, but they apparently left no records behind.

    I’ve heard that some dedicated investigators have managed to build enough trust with this laconic tribe that they would even share personal reminiscences of this mysterious time period, but it requires Goodall-like patience.

  43. @Johann Ricke

    White Americans are way more violent than white Western Europeans from other countries.
     
    That's the perception, but possibly a false one, as the commenters on this blog article suggest. Note also that the ancestors of today's white Americans aren't all from Western Europe.

    That’s the perception, but possibly a false one, as the commenters on this blog article suggest. Note also that the ancestors of today’s white Americans aren’t all from Western Europe.

    Some of the most solid Americans are those derived from the Christian Arabs from the greater Lebanon, Syria, Iraq (no Middle East national boundaries back then) region who arrived during the great immigration wave 1880-1920. I have met more recent Christian immigrants from Lebanon who are as pale as Frenchmen and even look somewhat French. Two had blue eyes.

  44. @Jason K.
    I'm sure I'm about to become very popular...

    The big problem is that effectively handling crime requires a nuanced approach, which neither party is capable of producing due to knee-jerk inanity on both sides. The right confuses justice with vengeance. The left forgets that forgiveness is earned, not owed.

    "Just lock 'em up" is a dumb response. Firstly, because prison is not a good disincentive for most criminals. Most criminals have high time preference (high impulsivity, low concern for consequences), so future prison time isn't much of an impact on their decisions. Secondly, just locking them up is very costly as it costs 10s of thousands per yer per inmate, which likely vastly outstrips the harms they imposed on society to get there. Finally, prison as currently designed generally increases the odds of recidivism, instead of decreasing it. So prison is largely ineffective at preventing crime, expensive, and usually leaves people more prone to future crime then when they went in. Prison, for all but habitual or worst offenders, is dumb. However, 'tough on crime' is easy to sell to the masses, hence the continual ratcheting up of prison sentences.

    Yes, the prison system is substituting (poorly) for the reduced mental health system for a lot of people that were utilizing the latter. This is not helped by various quality of life 'crimes' such as vagrancy. However, the total volume of people is low compared to the total prison population.

    The problems the left are going to have is that in order for punishment to be effective it has to be both swift and harsh, as well a lot of leftist policies have the ugly side effect of increasing crime (multiculturalism, high minimum wages, licensing, etc). The left will struggle with harsh because it'll pull at their feelz and too much focus on swift will likely undermine due process. The other struggle for the left is that there are indeed some evil people out there, and as we lack a place to export them to, prison is pretty much the best we can do with them.

    “Secondly, just locking them up is very costly as it costs 10s of thousands per yer per inmate, which likely vastly outstrips the harms they imposed on society to get there.”

    Cavanagh and Kleiman did a definitive study of your second assertion back in 1990 and to my knowledge it has never been refuted. http://www.botecanalysis.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/BOTEC_A-Cost-Benefit-Analysis-of-Prison-Cell-Construction-and-Alternative-Sanctions_Cavanagh_Mark-Kleiman_for-NIJ_May-June-1990.pdf

    Their conclusion:

    “We estimate that the direct and indirect annual costs of operating a prison cell must fall between the two hypothetical extremes of $22,000 and $61,000. A more reasonable range for these costs is probably $34,000 to $38,000. We also estimate that the crime prevented by using such a cell to lengthen the sentence of a current prisoner by a year would cost between $172,000 and $2,364,000. In other words our lowest estimate of the benefit of operating an additional prison cell for a year ($172,000) is nearly three times higher than the most extreme high estimate of the cost of operating such a cell ($61,000). The lowest estimated benefit is four times as large as a more reasonable estimate of the cost ($38,000). If we use our high estimate of the benefit of operating an additional prison cell for a year the cost-benefit differential is even more favorable. The benefits of operating a prison cell for a year ($2,364,000) are over 37 times as great as the most extreme high estimate of the costs ($61,000). The benefits of operating the cell are 64 times as great as a more reasonable estimate of the costs ($38,000)”

    • Agree: TWS
    • Replies: @Old fogey
    Many thanks for finding this info and making it available to us.
  45. Given that labour has been surging in the polls the Brits may soon find out.

    meanwhile more muslim mayhem in london

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4569638/Car-ploughs-20-people-London-Bridge.html

    here we go again

  46. Speaking of violent behavior – a knife and van ” incident ” on London Bridge . Good thing it’s just an ” incident “.

  47. @NOTA
    White Americans are way more violent than white Western Europeans from other countries. I assume this is a cultural difference, but maybe it's genetic, too. We have had many years of really fast expansion of population--maybe the super aggressive guys were the ones who mostly won those competitions. Or maybe the same tendency that made you bet your life on a one-way ticket to the US or a chance to homestead some remote bit of ground surrounded by hostile Indians selected for violent tendencies.

    I don’t doubt your assertion that American whites are more violent than white Europeans. But as I began to fashion a response we have been overtaken by events.

    Apparently terrorists have again hit London. The British have been “turning the other cheek’ as a public policy for some time now – not as much as the French perhaps, but still more than we would accept by an American political party.

    I’m a moderate but I feel the impulse for bloody revenge growing in me. I like the British. This angers me. In the period between the two World Wars there was a lot of discussion about the possible unthinkable atrocities that might be visited upon European cities if there were to be another giant European war. They all feared and condemned the ultimate horror that could imagined – bombing of a civilian city from the air.

    But quite soon public opinion transformed. Soon the Germans were bombing London (The Blitz) and there was around the clock bombing of Germany cities – The Americans by day and the British bombers at night. The “tender sensibilities” of the public eroded fast.

    So history suggests that civilian compunctions are soon overcome. We seem to be on course for a campaign to eradicate one or more Near Eastern Muslim nations. The Nazis resorted to massive civilian retaliations once it became obvious that they couldn’t uncover the actual perpetrators of the French Resistance attacks. They simply killed any Frenchman they could round up.

    The West seems to be being driven towards a similar policy. It’s not nice to contemplate but history suggests that when confronted by terror tactics the defenders are driven towards their own extreme measures.

    • Replies: @donut
    I'm beginning to find Muzzie Mayhem hilarious mostly because of the responses it engenders from the MSM and our betters. Of course my thoughts and prayers are with the victims which only adds to the hilarity .
    , @Carbon blob
    "I’m a moderate but I feel the impulse for bloody revenge growing in me"

    I mean, if we have to, we have to...but I'd rather not.

    Round up and deal with the terrorists who are already inside our borders, but other than that, GTFO the Middle East (and keep them out of our borders, obviously). Israel, if you want to continue to litigate millennia-old land disputes with a quarter billion of your historic enemies, that's on you.

    , @Parbes
    Much-deserved blowback. British leaders have been supporting Islamic jihadis and terrorists against secular Middle Eastern governments and Asian and European "geopolitical adversaries" for decades now. Right now, at this moment, they are actively allied with Al Qaida against the secular government of Syria, aiding them with everything from weapons to supplies to military trainers to media propaganda. Britain as a territory is also a DIRECT EXPORTER of Islamic terrorists - many of the foreign jihadi militants who cause mayhem in multiple countries across the globe reside IN Britain, set out FROM Britain to cause chaos, death and destruction, and then return TO Britain to take a break and rest. The insouciant, degenerate, hypocritical and bovinely dull-minded "British public" either are not even aware of their leaders' policies, or actively support them, or just don't care.

    If there is a country in Europe that deserves to be hit by Islamic terrorism more than any other, it is the UK of today.
  48. @Anon7
    Not so OT.

    I don't doubt that there can be an emotional brain consequence to poverty ("Poverty, they argue, exacts a mental tax akin to lowering a person’s IQ" from the article you quoted). But the concentration of people with low IQ is probably the real problem in inner city schools when it comes to achieving success, which is increasingly tied to higher IQ.

    It's a bad problem. Prior to the 1960's, black people (and poor white people) imitated successful white people, imitating their manner of dress, attending church, encouraging children to do well in school. Now, though, encouraging kids with 80 IQ to do these things sounds like some kind of cargo cult exercise, as far as the success rate is concerned. (If only there was a way to get the jobs away from illegal immigrants, and reward diligence with jobs...)

    Back on the topic, I've been thinking that our inner cities are places where we are breeding a group of people who can thrive there - the ones who do best are the ones who like the violence, they like the lawlessness, they like the drug experiences, the women like being single heads of household who get regular checks from the government, the men like fathering lots of different kids for whom they have no responsibility, etc. Brief prison terms are exactly like graduate school for the higher IQ types. (Isn't it nice of us to pay "tuition"?) They don't pay the "emotional tax of poverty" that liberals talk about, because they are adapted to their environment. Lacking a frontier, we've created them for this group of people who chafe at societal restrictions.

    Put them in prison for life, or put them in inner cities and don't provide mass transit to the suburbs. Take your pick.

    When are we going to admit that the early 20th century Progressives were right-three generations of imbeciles was enough?

  49. @Jason K.
    I'm sure I'm about to become very popular...

    The big problem is that effectively handling crime requires a nuanced approach, which neither party is capable of producing due to knee-jerk inanity on both sides. The right confuses justice with vengeance. The left forgets that forgiveness is earned, not owed.

    "Just lock 'em up" is a dumb response. Firstly, because prison is not a good disincentive for most criminals. Most criminals have high time preference (high impulsivity, low concern for consequences), so future prison time isn't much of an impact on their decisions. Secondly, just locking them up is very costly as it costs 10s of thousands per yer per inmate, which likely vastly outstrips the harms they imposed on society to get there. Finally, prison as currently designed generally increases the odds of recidivism, instead of decreasing it. So prison is largely ineffective at preventing crime, expensive, and usually leaves people more prone to future crime then when they went in. Prison, for all but habitual or worst offenders, is dumb. However, 'tough on crime' is easy to sell to the masses, hence the continual ratcheting up of prison sentences.

    Yes, the prison system is substituting (poorly) for the reduced mental health system for a lot of people that were utilizing the latter. This is not helped by various quality of life 'crimes' such as vagrancy. However, the total volume of people is low compared to the total prison population.

    The problems the left are going to have is that in order for punishment to be effective it has to be both swift and harsh, as well a lot of leftist policies have the ugly side effect of increasing crime (multiculturalism, high minimum wages, licensing, etc). The left will struggle with harsh because it'll pull at their feelz and too much focus on swift will likely undermine due process. The other struggle for the left is that there are indeed some evil people out there, and as we lack a place to export them to, prison is pretty much the best we can do with them.

    Just keep them in your neighborhood. I’m sure there will be no ill effects.

    This is one of the dumbest ideas that is easily refuted. The cost of one crime can reach into the hundreds of thousands of dollars. One crime. Not even counting the human costs.

  50. There are many in U.S. prisons who should not be there. There are many free people who should be in prison. It’s not how many people you incarcerate. It’s which people you incarcerate.

    • Replies: @Alec Leamas
    The chart referenced by iSteve seems to say otherwise.
  51. @Pat Boyle
    I don't doubt your assertion that American whites are more violent than white Europeans. But as I began to fashion a response we have been overtaken by events.

    Apparently terrorists have again hit London. The British have been "turning the other cheek' as a public policy for some time now - not as much as the French perhaps, but still more than we would accept by an American political party.

    I'm a moderate but I feel the impulse for bloody revenge growing in me. I like the British. This angers me. In the period between the two World Wars there was a lot of discussion about the possible unthinkable atrocities that might be visited upon European cities if there were to be another giant European war. They all feared and condemned the ultimate horror that could imagined - bombing of a civilian city from the air.

    But quite soon public opinion transformed. Soon the Germans were bombing London (The Blitz) and there was around the clock bombing of Germany cities - The Americans by day and the British bombers at night. The "tender sensibilities" of the public eroded fast.

    So history suggests that civilian compunctions are soon overcome. We seem to be on course for a campaign to eradicate one or more Near Eastern Muslim nations. The Nazis resorted to massive civilian retaliations once it became obvious that they couldn't uncover the actual perpetrators of the French Resistance attacks. They simply killed any Frenchman they could round up.

    The West seems to be being driven towards a similar policy. It's not nice to contemplate but history suggests that when confronted by terror tactics the defenders are driven towards their own extreme measures.

    I’m beginning to find Muzzie Mayhem hilarious mostly because of the responses it engenders from the MSM and our betters. Of course my thoughts and prayers are with the victims which only adds to the hilarity .

  52. @Charles Pewitt
    A certain percentage of Blacks commit most of the violent crime that is committed by Blacks. Institutionalize this cohort of Blacks and the Black crime rate will go down.

    If you could stop all the violent crime committed by Blacks and Mestizos in New York City, you would stop almost all violent crime.

    Suppress The Violent Skunks Now!

    Attorney General Jeff Sessions is doing the right thing in regards to drug crime. The Democrats know it, but they won't say it. Chappaqua Hillary knows it.

    Big problem is that incarceration doesn’t stop violent criminals from breeding.

    • Replies: @Joe Stalin
    In the 1960s, a regular topic of Black women in Chicago was how their no-good baby-daddies weren't paying child support. Now, Black women don't give two craps about child support because the State is now their meal ticket; yes, it takes a State full of compliant taxpayers for such women to feed and raise their youths. ( In Illinois, we are talking $193 per person a month just for the LINK card aka Food Stamps.) And still, the white suburbanites continue to vote Democrats into office as well as welcoming the two million Mexican invasion force.
    , @Anonymous
    Viva il cotellino!
  53. @Pat Boyle
    I don't doubt your assertion that American whites are more violent than white Europeans. But as I began to fashion a response we have been overtaken by events.

    Apparently terrorists have again hit London. The British have been "turning the other cheek' as a public policy for some time now - not as much as the French perhaps, but still more than we would accept by an American political party.

    I'm a moderate but I feel the impulse for bloody revenge growing in me. I like the British. This angers me. In the period between the two World Wars there was a lot of discussion about the possible unthinkable atrocities that might be visited upon European cities if there were to be another giant European war. They all feared and condemned the ultimate horror that could imagined - bombing of a civilian city from the air.

    But quite soon public opinion transformed. Soon the Germans were bombing London (The Blitz) and there was around the clock bombing of Germany cities - The Americans by day and the British bombers at night. The "tender sensibilities" of the public eroded fast.

    So history suggests that civilian compunctions are soon overcome. We seem to be on course for a campaign to eradicate one or more Near Eastern Muslim nations. The Nazis resorted to massive civilian retaliations once it became obvious that they couldn't uncover the actual perpetrators of the French Resistance attacks. They simply killed any Frenchman they could round up.

    The West seems to be being driven towards a similar policy. It's not nice to contemplate but history suggests that when confronted by terror tactics the defenders are driven towards their own extreme measures.

    “I’m a moderate but I feel the impulse for bloody revenge growing in me”

    I mean, if we have to, we have to…but I’d rather not.

    Round up and deal with the terrorists who are already inside our borders, but other than that, GTFO the Middle East (and keep them out of our borders, obviously). Israel, if you want to continue to litigate millennia-old land disputes with a quarter billion of your historic enemies, that’s on you.

  54. anon • Disclaimer says:

    We could be a lot closer to fixing the Obama years/BLM homicide spike than generally thought. Police and black communities know who are going to be committing at least half of the next year’s homicides. Most of these individuals have lengthy records and are vulnerable to lengthy prison terms for offenses they could easily be caught and convicted of. Namely gun charges.

    Black communities want law and order and have been strong advocates of it in the past. In order to diminish ebb and flow of support for this, it needs to be more targeted. Or a lot more targeted. Consider a ‘base rate’ of homicide consisting of domestics and random bad outcomes as well as an epidemic of highly concentrated gang and drug related homicides. The latter are already on a list, and it only takes the will to incarcerate them by the hundreds (locally) and (thousands) nationally.

    I think it needs to be knocked back to the 00’s level and then left alone. It’s an American disease that the best is enemy of the good and more is always better.

    The epidemic nature of this can be seen in news reports of ‘knock on’ homicides at funerals and candlelight vigils. Its possible that this isn’t reversible, of course. And I am too optimistic. But with big data and surveillance advances, a simple gun possession arrest followed by the draconian sentences (10 years, give or take) of the gun charge plus whatever else is on the table (attempted homicide, drugs, etc) will put them out of society long enough that they will come back to a society without much space for violent criminal deviance.

  55. @Jason K.
    I'm sure I'm about to become very popular...

    The big problem is that effectively handling crime requires a nuanced approach, which neither party is capable of producing due to knee-jerk inanity on both sides. The right confuses justice with vengeance. The left forgets that forgiveness is earned, not owed.

    "Just lock 'em up" is a dumb response. Firstly, because prison is not a good disincentive for most criminals. Most criminals have high time preference (high impulsivity, low concern for consequences), so future prison time isn't much of an impact on their decisions. Secondly, just locking them up is very costly as it costs 10s of thousands per yer per inmate, which likely vastly outstrips the harms they imposed on society to get there. Finally, prison as currently designed generally increases the odds of recidivism, instead of decreasing it. So prison is largely ineffective at preventing crime, expensive, and usually leaves people more prone to future crime then when they went in. Prison, for all but habitual or worst offenders, is dumb. However, 'tough on crime' is easy to sell to the masses, hence the continual ratcheting up of prison sentences.

    Yes, the prison system is substituting (poorly) for the reduced mental health system for a lot of people that were utilizing the latter. This is not helped by various quality of life 'crimes' such as vagrancy. However, the total volume of people is low compared to the total prison population.

    The problems the left are going to have is that in order for punishment to be effective it has to be both swift and harsh, as well a lot of leftist policies have the ugly side effect of increasing crime (multiculturalism, high minimum wages, licensing, etc). The left will struggle with harsh because it'll pull at their feelz and too much focus on swift will likely undermine due process. The other struggle for the left is that there are indeed some evil people out there, and as we lack a place to export them to, prison is pretty much the best we can do with them.

    You might be interested in this article in The Chronicle of Higher Education:

    http://www.chronicle.com/article/In-Defense-of-Flogging/127208/

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    I found it interesting mainly because the writer seems to possess fairly liberal sentiments yet reached the conclusion that he did. Of course, he doesn't go the whole way and say that flogging should be mandatory but I am willing to give him credit for even being willing to explore other options. New does not always equal better, and while old doesn't always equal superior, there is still wisdom in the ways of our ancestors.
    , @Jus' Sayin'...
    Our current system of incarceration's greatest contribution of to civic order is that it incapacitates criminals. While they are in prison they cannot harm law abiding citizens outside the walls. See my other post on this thread for an estimate of the incapacitating effect. Flogging would have no such effect. The movie "The Harder They Fall", set in 1970s Jamaica, where flogging was still a legal punishment, makes this point quite well.

    Unfortunately, prisoners who cannot harm those outside the walls still manage to inflict massive amounts of mayhem upon guards and other prisoners. The rampant rate at which Negro prisoners rape other inmates is an abomination created by the current corrections system and one that progs absolutely refuse to address.
  56. fnn says:
    @NOTA
    White Americans are way more violent than white Western Europeans from other countries. I assume this is a cultural difference, but maybe it's genetic, too. We have had many years of really fast expansion of population--maybe the super aggressive guys were the ones who mostly won those competitions. Or maybe the same tendency that made you bet your life on a one-way ticket to the US or a chance to homestead some remote bit of ground surrounded by hostile Indians selected for violent tendencies.

    White Americans are way more violent than white Western Europeans from other countries.

    IIRC, that’s been debunked here before. Scots-Irish-Borderer Americans are more violent than European whites, but not other American whites. See discussions of the Canadian Border Effect.

    P.S. Post-1965 white (?) American populations like Albanians and Chechens are another matter.A handful of Albanians (like the Belushis)were around pre-1965 in case anyone wants to point that out.

  57. @Hyperborean
    You might be interested in this article in The Chronicle of Higher Education:

    http://www.chronicle.com/article/In-Defense-of-Flogging/127208/

    I found it interesting mainly because the writer seems to possess fairly liberal sentiments yet reached the conclusion that he did. Of course, he doesn’t go the whole way and say that flogging should be mandatory but I am willing to give him credit for even being willing to explore other options. New does not always equal better, and while old doesn’t always equal superior, there is still wisdom in the ways of our ancestors.

  58. @Lex
    Big problem is that incarceration doesn't stop violent criminals from breeding.

    In the 1960s, a regular topic of Black women in Chicago was how their no-good baby-daddies weren’t paying child support. Now, Black women don’t give two craps about child support because the State is now their meal ticket; yes, it takes a State full of compliant taxpayers for such women to feed and raise their youths. ( In Illinois, we are talking $193 per person a month just for the LINK card aka Food Stamps.) And still, the white suburbanites continue to vote Democrats into office as well as welcoming the two million Mexican invasion force.

    • Replies: @Flip
    I agree with Charles Murray who said that the state shouldn't provide welfare for children to unmarried women. We should pay for abortion or adoption/orphanages. My great-great grandmother was widowed in her early 20s with a newborn, and she then married another guy and had more children. She probably would have stayed a single mother if welfare had been available to my great grandfather's detriment.
  59. @Lex
    Big problem is that incarceration doesn't stop violent criminals from breeding.

    Viva il cotellino!

  60. Israel did not choose to have those disputes – Arab countries did. Israel accepted the 1948 UN partition plan, but the Arab world didn’t.

  61. @Charles Pewitt
    A certain percentage of Blacks commit most of the violent crime that is committed by Blacks. Institutionalize this cohort of Blacks and the Black crime rate will go down.

    If you could stop all the violent crime committed by Blacks and Mestizos in New York City, you would stop almost all violent crime.

    Suppress The Violent Skunks Now!

    Attorney General Jeff Sessions is doing the right thing in regards to drug crime. The Democrats know it, but they won't say it. Chappaqua Hillary knows it.

    Does this mean there are now going to be security guards patrolling the bridge at night now?

    A certain percentage of Blacks

    Like one third.

    1 in 3 Black Men Go To Prison?

  62. @Pat Boyle
    This is very dangerous stuff. That graph implies that humanity needs to remove a sizeable proportion of its population (the criminal groups) from exposure to the main body. In the Middle Ages before society was rich enough to afford life long incarceration presumably the criminals or suspected criminals were simply killed.

    Liberals often exclaim in horror that the United States incarcerates more people than any other society. This graph suggests that the US is simply more evolved than other nations. This graph suggests that the natural order of things is for a society to breed as many as it can and then kill off the excess. Recently we have merely locked them up.

    If this interpretation is correct there is an excellent case to be made for a routine culling of the antisocial elements in society. In the last century Hitler and Stalin seemed to hold that view. In America locking up criminals means in large part, locking up black people. This graph will be seen by Democrats as a justification for genocide.

    Dangerous stuff.

    If this interpretation is correct there is an excellent case to be made for a routine culling of the antisocial elements in society.

    If you are correct Democrats and a wide swath of Republicans qualify as “antisocial elements in society” Should we follow the dictates of this logic? No. Killing sheep does not replace the shepherd.

  63. @Barnard
    OT: Welfare applicant in Augusta, Maine is denied benefits so he spreads bedbugs in city hall. If glorious diversity is not involved with this story, I will be stunned. Any area that has had an influx of East Africans has also seen an increase in bed bugs.

    http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/disgruntled-maine-man-unleashes-100-bedbugs-augusta-city-hall-article-1.3218117

    Another glorious benefit of diversity is nits in children’s hair. Teachers are now being told that they should announce that no one is to blame and that it doesn’t mean that anyone is dirtier than any other if certain children bring lice to school in their hair.

    When I was in school in the benighted 1940s and 1950s in Brooklyn and Queens we started every school year with the school nurse testing each child’s head for lice. Never once was any found. This new crop of “migrants” seem to carry a few extra “benefits” with them. . . Not their fault, of course; never their fault.

    • Replies: @Ivy
    Lice will seem benign after more TB, measles epidemics and, why not some bubonic plague eventually. Are there any apartment vacancies in Chappaqua?
  64. @Buzz Mohawk
    But increased institutionalization means disproportionately more non-white people get institutionalized.

    Which is disparate impact.

    Because racism.

    Even though races don't exist.

    The answer is to move those violent and crazy people out to the suburbs, where magic dirt and Wonderbread will make them all better.

    This has the additional benefit of clearing out those nice, urban neighborhoods, so rich, gay Democrats can gentrify them.

    And if those violent and crazy people continue to be violent and crazy, then it will be the fault of their white, suburban neighbors.

    Which is disparate impact.

    Because racism.

    Center shot!

  65. @415 reasons
    The NYT taught me it is a paradox that more people are in prison DESPITE a decrease in the crime rate...

    Yes, as a faithful NYT reader, I can vouch that the writers have absolutely no ability to look at the numbers and drawn the obvious conclusion.

  66. @Jus' Sayin'...

    "Secondly, just locking them up is very costly as it costs 10s of thousands per yer per inmate, which likely vastly outstrips the harms they imposed on society to get there."
     
    Cavanagh and Kleiman did a definitive study of your second assertion back in 1990 and to my knowledge it has never been refuted. http://www.botecanalysis.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/BOTEC_A-Cost-Benefit-Analysis-of-Prison-Cell-Construction-and-Alternative-Sanctions_Cavanagh_Mark-Kleiman_for-NIJ_May-June-1990.pdf

    Their conclusion:

    "We estimate that the direct and indirect annual costs of operating a prison cell must fall between the two hypothetical extremes of $22,000 and $61,000. A more reasonable range for these costs is probably $34,000 to $38,000. We also estimate that the crime prevented by using such a cell to lengthen the sentence of a current prisoner by a year would cost between $172,000 and $2,364,000. In other words our lowest estimate of the benefit of operating an additional prison cell for a year ($172,000) is nearly three times higher than the most extreme high estimate of the cost of operating such a cell ($61,000). The lowest estimated benefit is four times as large as a more reasonable estimate of the cost ($38,000). If we use our high estimate of the benefit of operating an additional prison cell for a year the cost-benefit differential is even more favorable. The benefits of operating a prison cell for a year ($2,364,000) are over 37 times as great as the most extreme high estimate of the costs ($61,000). The benefits of operating the cell are 64 times as great as a more reasonable estimate of the costs ($38,000)"
     

    Many thanks for finding this info and making it available to us.

  67. @Crawfurdmuir
    The great trough in the violent crime curve from the mid-1930s through 1968 also marked the last period in our history during which capital punishment was routinely carried out without a great deal of court-imposed delay. As an example, Giuseppe Zangara, who botched his attempt to shoot Franklin Roosevelt, but hit the mayor of Chicago, Anton Cermak, and four others, on Feb. 15, 1933. Cermak died on March 6, and Zangara, who had already been tried and sentenced to prison for attempted murder, was again brought to trial, this time for the murder of Cermak. He was sentenced to death and electrocuted on March 20. Most capital cases were conducted with comparable expedition. Caryl Chessman, who strung his 1948 case out for 12 years, finally being executed in 1960, was an exception to the rule.

    However, by the mid-1960s, appeals of state capital cases to Federal courts became routine, culminating in Furman v. Georgia (408 U.S. 238), a 1972 ruling that overturned all death penalty legislation then current, effectively imposing a moratorium on capital punishment. While later cases reinstated the death penalty, subsequent jurisprudence has surrounded it with so much restriction and delay that a Chessman-style wait of a dozen years is comparatively short.

    There was a widespread belief in the early 20th century that violent crime could be "hanged out." The data reported here appear to support that contention.

    It is worth noting that the state of New York once had one of the most stringent death penalty laws in the country. Conviction of first degree murder (including "felony murder," i.e., killing a person in the course of committing another crime such as armed robbery) carried a mandatory death penalty, which could only be reduced if the governor commuted the sentence. Commutations were rare because they made it possible to accuse the governor of being soft on crime. Sing Sing's electric chair was for many years the busiest in the United States - and the streets of New York were remarkably safe for its citizens.

    Yes, yes and yes. But if you want to destroy a society you have to detach the state from its role as a just executioner. Libs will have none of justice, because someone (in theory) will die for the crimes of another.

    Is this true? Well DNA is the total, complete and final word you know; and eyewitness testimony cannot survive the adulterers defense “who are you going to believe, me or your own lying eyes?”

    Liberals are visceral enemies of humanity. From PETA to the judiciary they are misanthropes. Scrape one to three layers of skin off a liberal and you will find Josef Stalin.

    • Replies: @anonymous
    "Scrape one to three layers of skin off a liberal and you will find Josef Stalin."

    Bingo!!
  68. @Old fogey
    Another glorious benefit of diversity is nits in children's hair. Teachers are now being told that they should announce that no one is to blame and that it doesn't mean that anyone is dirtier than any other if certain children bring lice to school in their hair.

    When I was in school in the benighted 1940s and 1950s in Brooklyn and Queens we started every school year with the school nurse testing each child's head for lice. Never once was any found. This new crop of "migrants" seem to carry a few extra "benefits" with them. . . Not their fault, of course; never their fault.

    Lice will seem benign after more TB, measles epidemics and, why not some bubonic plague eventually. Are there any apartment vacancies in Chappaqua?

  69. @Johann Ricke

    White Americans are way more violent than white Western Europeans from other countries.
     
    That's the perception, but possibly a false one, as the commenters on this blog article suggest. Note also that the ancestors of today's white Americans aren't all from Western Europe.

    The relevant comparison would be with Belgium’s WHITE murder rate; not Belgium’s overall murder rate. Here’s an interesting state-by-state murder rape map of the US:

    Every single state in the US has a higher murder rate than (for example) Spain’s 0.7 per 100,000, Germany’s 0.8, or England/Wales’s 1.0.

    There is probably a greater propensity for violence among white Americans than modern western white Europeans, though the gap in rates is trivial compared to the black-white gap.

  70. @FKA Max

    For each item, assessors — psychologists or psychiatrists — assign a score of zero (the item doesn’t apply), one (the item applies in some respects), or two (the item applies in most respects). The maximum possible score is forty, and the boundary for clinical psychopathy hovers around thirty. Last year, the average score for all incarcerated male offenders in North America was 23.3. Hare guesses his own score would be about four or five.
    [...]
    So many of these awkward questions would vanish if only there were a functioning treatment program for psychopathy. But there isn’t. In fact, several studies have shown that existing treatment makes criminal psychopaths worse. In one, psychopaths who underwent social-skills and anger-management training before release had an 82 percent reconviction rate. Psychopaths who didn’t take the program had a 59 percent reconviction rate. Conventional psychotherapy starts with the assumption that a patient wants to change, but psychopaths are usually perfectly happy as they are. They enrol[l] in such programs to improve their chances of parole. “These guys learn the words but not the music,” Hare says. “They can repeat all the psychiatric jargon — ‘I feel remorse,’ they talk about the offence cycle — but these are words, hollow words.”
     
    - http://www.unz.com/jthompson/pavlov-nowhere/#comment-1744223

    Professionals: What do you do if you learn your patient is likely a Psychopath?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=extMFIwAgPA

    One of the interesting developments in the penultimate episode of The Sopranos was when Jennifer Melfi, Tony’s therapist throughout the series, realizes that all she is doing is enabling his psychopathy. The realization stems from an actual article published by psychiatrists Samuel Yochelson and Stanton Samenow and is demonstrated by the way Tony applies Melfi’s advice in several instances.

    Interestingly, in media discussions after the episode aired, many therapists expressed disapproval of Melfi’s decision to stop treating Tony.

  71. @WorkingClass
    There are many in U.S. prisons who should not be there. There are many free people who should be in prison. It's not how many people you incarcerate. It's which people you incarcerate.

    The chart referenced by iSteve seems to say otherwise.

  72. @Pat Boyle
    I don't doubt your assertion that American whites are more violent than white Europeans. But as I began to fashion a response we have been overtaken by events.

    Apparently terrorists have again hit London. The British have been "turning the other cheek' as a public policy for some time now - not as much as the French perhaps, but still more than we would accept by an American political party.

    I'm a moderate but I feel the impulse for bloody revenge growing in me. I like the British. This angers me. In the period between the two World Wars there was a lot of discussion about the possible unthinkable atrocities that might be visited upon European cities if there were to be another giant European war. They all feared and condemned the ultimate horror that could imagined - bombing of a civilian city from the air.

    But quite soon public opinion transformed. Soon the Germans were bombing London (The Blitz) and there was around the clock bombing of Germany cities - The Americans by day and the British bombers at night. The "tender sensibilities" of the public eroded fast.

    So history suggests that civilian compunctions are soon overcome. We seem to be on course for a campaign to eradicate one or more Near Eastern Muslim nations. The Nazis resorted to massive civilian retaliations once it became obvious that they couldn't uncover the actual perpetrators of the French Resistance attacks. They simply killed any Frenchman they could round up.

    The West seems to be being driven towards a similar policy. It's not nice to contemplate but history suggests that when confronted by terror tactics the defenders are driven towards their own extreme measures.

    Much-deserved blowback. British leaders have been supporting Islamic jihadis and terrorists against secular Middle Eastern governments and Asian and European “geopolitical adversaries” for decades now. Right now, at this moment, they are actively allied with Al Qaida against the secular government of Syria, aiding them with everything from weapons to supplies to military trainers to media propaganda. Britain as a territory is also a DIRECT EXPORTER of Islamic terrorists – many of the foreign jihadi militants who cause mayhem in multiple countries across the globe reside IN Britain, set out FROM Britain to cause chaos, death and destruction, and then return TO Britain to take a break and rest. The insouciant, degenerate, hypocritical and bovinely dull-minded “British public” either are not even aware of their leaders’ policies, or actively support them, or just don’t care.

    If there is a country in Europe that deserves to be hit by Islamic terrorism more than any other, it is the UK of today.

  73. @Roderick Spode
    What this graph suggests is that your ancestors should have sent them all back to West Africa at the end of the Civil War, or at least to the Caribbean like Lincoln wanted.

    Perhaps I need a pretty black girl to sing my publicly unacceptable thoughts, the way Dave Chapelle had a pretty white girl for his (demonstrably acceptable) ones.
    http://www.cc.com/video-clips/i3vs6y/chappelle-s-show-pretty-white-girl-sings-dave-s-thoughts---uncensored


    In the Middle Ages before society was rich enough to afford life long incarceration presumably the criminals or suspected criminals were simply killed.
     
    No. Most children didn't make it to adulthood because there were no antibiotics. There's your magical population-control mechanism. Criminals were killed, horribly, often in public (something we should totally re-instate here and now, BTW) but there was no large body of anti-social individuals to vex the government because there was no large body of any type of individual.

    I had never seen a Dave Chapelle routine before. Everyone says how funny he is.

  74. anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous
    If you ask a lot of conservatives, they'll tell you that the solution to today's problems is to return to the values of the 1950s. What this chart shows you is that no matter how conservative or liberal the professed values might be, some people just aren't equipped to handle everyday life in this society. You can preach the gospel of steady jobs and two-parent families until you pass out and fall over; for a certain section of the populace, it's just not going to take root. You can lock 'em up and throw away the key. You can castigate and ostracize the freeloaders. And at the end of the day, they are not going to adapt themselves to the job-marriage-mortgage regimen.

    Years ago I heard a retired judge–a Federal judge I think–make essentially the same point: that there are whole classes of people who are simply ill-equipped to live in a civilized society. He recommended that they be shipped to internment camps in the woods etc. Of course, he could afford to say this because he had already retired. Had he said this while active, he wouldn’t have been on the bench very long. No sirree!

  75. @Charles Erwin Wilson
    Yes, yes and yes. But if you want to destroy a society you have to detach the state from its role as a just executioner. Libs will have none of justice, because someone (in theory) will die for the crimes of another.

    Is this true? Well DNA is the total, complete and final word you know; and eyewitness testimony cannot survive the adulterers defense "who are you going to believe, me or your own lying eyes?"

    Liberals are visceral enemies of humanity. From PETA to the judiciary they are misanthropes. Scrape one to three layers of skin off a liberal and you will find Josef Stalin.

    “Scrape one to three layers of skin off a liberal and you will find Josef Stalin.”

    Bingo!!

  76. @Hyperborean
    You might be interested in this article in The Chronicle of Higher Education:

    http://www.chronicle.com/article/In-Defense-of-Flogging/127208/

    Our current system of incarceration’s greatest contribution of to civic order is that it incapacitates criminals. While they are in prison they cannot harm law abiding citizens outside the walls. See my other post on this thread for an estimate of the incapacitating effect. Flogging would have no such effect. The movie “The Harder They Fall”, set in 1970s Jamaica, where flogging was still a legal punishment, makes this point quite well.

    Unfortunately, prisoners who cannot harm those outside the walls still manage to inflict massive amounts of mayhem upon guards and other prisoners. The rampant rate at which Negro prisoners rape other inmates is an abomination created by the current corrections system and one that progs absolutely refuse to address.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    I read the paper and they seem mainly to be comparing longer prison sentences versus shorter sentences/parole. They do have a small section discussing the efficacy of punitive fines against middle/high class people who committed a minor crime preventing repeat offences. I agree that there is a section of the population that is completely irredeemable who would be better off simply spending as much time as possible isolated from the general population and doing physical labour or something time-consuming. I do think however that flogging can prevent repeat offences if they are aimed at the right subgroup of people i.e people who are not completely anti-social and actually have something to lose.

    I tried searching for the film but I could only find a boxing film from 1956, who is the director?
    , @Kyle McKenna

    The rampant rate at which Negro prisoners rape other inmates is an abomination created by the current corrections system and one that progs absolutely refuse to address.
     
    Because the victims are wildly, disproportionately white. Therefore, to self-styled 'progressives' it's a feature, not a bug. If (as the MSM likes to pretend) the victims were mostly minorities, a class-action lawsuit would have been won long ago--the constitution's prohibition against cruel and unusual punishment invoked. But in practice blacks are used only if there aren't enough whites to go 'round.

    An organisation called Stop Prisoner Rape used to maintain a harrowing series of accounts and statistics at spr.org. However I notice it's been subsumed into another organisation focused upon minority rights.

  77. Flip says:
    @Joe Stalin
    In the 1960s, a regular topic of Black women in Chicago was how their no-good baby-daddies weren't paying child support. Now, Black women don't give two craps about child support because the State is now their meal ticket; yes, it takes a State full of compliant taxpayers for such women to feed and raise their youths. ( In Illinois, we are talking $193 per person a month just for the LINK card aka Food Stamps.) And still, the white suburbanites continue to vote Democrats into office as well as welcoming the two million Mexican invasion force.

    I agree with Charles Murray who said that the state shouldn’t provide welfare for children to unmarried women. We should pay for abortion or adoption/orphanages. My great-great grandmother was widowed in her early 20s with a newborn, and she then married another guy and had more children. She probably would have stayed a single mother if welfare had been available to my great grandfather’s detriment.

    • Replies: @Anonymous White Male
    "We should pay for abortion or adoption/orphanages."

    Paying for abortion makes the State, and hence, the masses an accessory to the murder of millions of innocents. With whatever karma that entails. There will always be sluts or childish women that will use their genitalia to acquire children they expect some male to support. If you shame them in public, the female herd will eventually realize that this behavior does not benefit them in any way. Reality is a bitch, isn't it? But, it works. Interfering in it does not.
  78. To put this in human terms, there would have been about 320,000 fewer homicide victims if the homicide rate had remained at its 1960 level.

    320,000.

    It would take about 400 hours just to read off all their names.

    Calculation: (9.5 – 4.5) x (226,5000,000 / 100,000) x (1995 – 1967) = 320,000.

    • Replies: @Joe Schmoe
    And who would they be?

    Largely and disproportionally, they would be lower class black males.
  79. Gee, why is it when you lock up criminals the crime rate goes down? How does that happen? Its a mystery. Can Sherlock Holmes solve this mystery? Hell even Mike Tyson could figure this out. But the Left is too open minded to look at the facts, especially when it conflicts with their narrative, the broken record that drives people crazy and just goes on and on and on…

  80. @George
    For the entire 20s the Republicans were in charge. So the '32 high probably belongs to them, although some claim Hoover was a departure from the economic policies of the Harding Coolidge era.

    The problem with all economic analysis is there are so many factors going on, which do you include in your model? Other possible explanations for homicide rates: WWII, Vietnam, The Great Migration (of Blacks to northern cities), the Soviet Union supporting class unrest, ect. I suspect the decline in institutionalization had more to do with budget priorities than sociology theories. Left unsaid would be jailing people because we have extra tax money, or releasing prisoners because we cannot afford to pay government pensions would be unacceptable.

    Maine Gov.: Released Inmates Could Fill Jobs
    http://www.officer.com/news/12340092/maine-gov-released-inmates-could-fill-jobs

    See pensiontsunami.com for links to the future government pension crisis.

    We need to ask about the victims of the homicides. When incarceration goes down, who do the murderers kill? Right now, we don’t catch all the murderers and they continue killing. http://heyjackass.com/ reports an 11% rate of charging a suspect in a murder case. It also reports that victims are overwhelmingly male, 82%. And overwhelmingly black, 204 of 260. Hispanic 36, and white 6. This is in a city that is 45% white.

    Bottom line, the streets are more dangerous than prison. For those who want a death penalty, we have got it in spades, albeit with extreme collateral damage. Were the murderers imprisoned, they would be safer.

  81. @FactsAreImportant
    To put this in human terms, there would have been about 320,000 fewer homicide victims if the homicide rate had remained at its 1960 level.

    320,000.

    It would take about 400 hours just to read off all their names.

    Calculation: (9.5 - 4.5) x (226,5000,000 / 100,000) x (1995 - 1967) = 320,000.

    And who would they be?

    Largely and disproportionally, they would be lower class black males.

  82. @Jus' Sayin'...
    Our current system of incarceration's greatest contribution of to civic order is that it incapacitates criminals. While they are in prison they cannot harm law abiding citizens outside the walls. See my other post on this thread for an estimate of the incapacitating effect. Flogging would have no such effect. The movie "The Harder They Fall", set in 1970s Jamaica, where flogging was still a legal punishment, makes this point quite well.

    Unfortunately, prisoners who cannot harm those outside the walls still manage to inflict massive amounts of mayhem upon guards and other prisoners. The rampant rate at which Negro prisoners rape other inmates is an abomination created by the current corrections system and one that progs absolutely refuse to address.

    I read the paper and they seem mainly to be comparing longer prison sentences versus shorter sentences/parole. They do have a small section discussing the efficacy of punitive fines against middle/high class people who committed a minor crime preventing repeat offences. I agree that there is a section of the population that is completely irredeemable who would be better off simply spending as much time as possible isolated from the general population and doing physical labour or something time-consuming. I do think however that flogging can prevent repeat offences if they are aimed at the right subgroup of people i.e people who are not completely anti-social and actually have something to lose.

    I tried searching for the film but I could only find a boxing film from 1956, who is the director?

  83. @Judah Benjamin Hur
    I'm very sympathetic to many well-intentioned 1960s policies. I was only alive at the very end of the 60s, but I sort-of default to the Gene Roddenberry worldview until my brain kicks in. However, I'm not sympathetic to ignoring 50+ years of data that proves a lot of the 60s ideas were bunk, or at least need serious modification. I'm also convinced that some acknowledgement of HBD issues are necessary.

    Actually, what are the policies from the 1960’s that you are still sympathetic to? Legalization of pot? Indiscriminate sex? Mass non-White immigration legislation? The only one I still have any respect for is some of the music from that era. Not the self-righteous, preachy, we know better than you, but some of the greatest popular music of all time.

  84. @Flip
    I agree with Charles Murray who said that the state shouldn't provide welfare for children to unmarried women. We should pay for abortion or adoption/orphanages. My great-great grandmother was widowed in her early 20s with a newborn, and she then married another guy and had more children. She probably would have stayed a single mother if welfare had been available to my great grandfather's detriment.

    “We should pay for abortion or adoption/orphanages.”

    Paying for abortion makes the State, and hence, the masses an accessory to the murder of millions of innocents. With whatever karma that entails. There will always be sluts or childish women that will use their genitalia to acquire children they expect some male to support. If you shame them in public, the female herd will eventually realize that this behavior does not benefit them in any way. Reality is a bitch, isn’t it? But, it works. Interfering in it does not.

  85. Another deinstitutionalization of the day was that of marriage. Daniel Amneus pointed out that crime rates rose almost precisely fifteen years after bastardy rates did. Gee, I wonder why…

  86. From first hand experience at many county jails one will find several mentally deficient inmates who long ago might have been institutionalised. Albeit prior to opening thedoorsin the 60sthere were undoubtedly many moderate cases that should not have been institutionalised. The pendulum swings back and forth. Looks like the socialists want to free the criminals once again forgetting history AND once again demonstrate that they have no meaningful concept of human nature or the law of incentive/disincentive. I am an old boomer who remembers all to well what our old socialists and young Mellonheads don’t and probably won’t.

    • Agree: Dan Hayes
  87. @Jack Highlands
    The lines are not quite mirror image; importantly, they are phase-shifted. We can see almost at a glance that the two largest drops in homicide rate started in 1933 and 1991, both just a year into lengthy Democratic presidential rule. But the trend to increasing incarceration substantially precedes both, eg it starts right in 1980 for the recent macro-cycle.

    It takes a conservative to lock 'em up, and a liberal to reap the PR benefit.

    … drops in homicide rate started in 1933 and 1991, both just a year into lengthy Democratic presidential rule.

    I actually agree that sometimes the longer-term benefits of Republican policies redound to the benefit of Democrats, but George H.W. Bush was President from January 1989 to January 1993. Transition dates were different in F.D. Roosevelt’s time; he was inaugurated March 4, 1933.

  88. CJ says:
    @Hyperborean
    I read the paper and they seem mainly to be comparing longer prison sentences versus shorter sentences/parole. They do have a small section discussing the efficacy of punitive fines against middle/high class people who committed a minor crime preventing repeat offences. I agree that there is a section of the population that is completely irredeemable who would be better off simply spending as much time as possible isolated from the general population and doing physical labour or something time-consuming. I do think however that flogging can prevent repeat offences if they are aimed at the right subgroup of people i.e people who are not completely anti-social and actually have something to lose.

    I tried searching for the film but I could only find a boxing film from 1956, who is the director?
    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    Thanks.
  89. Kyle McKenna [AKA "Mika-Non"] says:
    @Jus' Sayin'...
    Our current system of incarceration's greatest contribution of to civic order is that it incapacitates criminals. While they are in prison they cannot harm law abiding citizens outside the walls. See my other post on this thread for an estimate of the incapacitating effect. Flogging would have no such effect. The movie "The Harder They Fall", set in 1970s Jamaica, where flogging was still a legal punishment, makes this point quite well.

    Unfortunately, prisoners who cannot harm those outside the walls still manage to inflict massive amounts of mayhem upon guards and other prisoners. The rampant rate at which Negro prisoners rape other inmates is an abomination created by the current corrections system and one that progs absolutely refuse to address.

    The rampant rate at which Negro prisoners rape other inmates is an abomination created by the current corrections system and one that progs absolutely refuse to address.

    Because the victims are wildly, disproportionately white. Therefore, to self-styled ‘progressives’ it’s a feature, not a bug. If (as the MSM likes to pretend) the victims were mostly minorities, a class-action lawsuit would have been won long ago–the constitution’s prohibition against cruel and unusual punishment invoked. But in practice blacks are used only if there aren’t enough whites to go ’round.

    An organisation called Stop Prisoner Rape used to maintain a harrowing series of accounts and statistics at spr.org. However I notice it’s been subsumed into another organisation focused upon minority rights.

Comments are closed.

Subscribe to All Steve Sailer Comments via RSS