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From my new column in Taki’s Magazine:

A Pair of Giants
by Steve Sailer

April 04, 2018

What do the pasts of India and China imply about their futures?

2018’s rapid advances in the race sciences, as exemplified by Harvard geneticist David Reich’s blockbuster book Who We Are and How We Got Here, are reopening old questions such as these.

There are few issues more important to investors and others interested in the rest of the 21st century than the fates of the two giga-countries, China and India. To forecast their futures requires knowledge of their pasts.

Read the whole thing there.

 
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  1. Both are relatively low-trust nations by Western standards, but China has the edge and will prevail, while India will remain a cultural, technological, and military backwater (assuming it and Pakistan don’t nuke one another).

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  2. Excellent column. At the end of the day there will be one winner of the 21st century, the authoritarian Chinese which will be a tremendous shame.

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    • Agree: MBlanc46
    • Replies: @Luke Lea
    Ali Choudhury writes "Excellent column. At the end of the day there will be one winner of the 21st century, the authoritarian Chinese which will be a tremendous shame."

    Not if all the advanced industrial democracies get together and leverage their combined industrial, commercial, technological, military, and especially financial power (control of international banking system) to keep China within civilized bounds. But that will require a new Democratic League.

    Fortunately China will always suffer from a serious soft-power deficit.

    , @pyrrhus
    Couldn't read the column at Taki's because of the obnoxious popup ads for a certain fraudulent service....
    , @Halal Butcher of Lhasa
    " At the end of the day there will be one winner of the 21st century, the authoritarian Chinese which will be a tremendous shame..."
    I always find hinduwadis interesting; like hindus could label apartheid system as 'spiritual'. I'm not the one making the judgment; go ask Mr. Singh the ex-prime-mimister
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/dec/28/india.mainsection

    http://www.forumforhinduawakening.org/awakening/castsystem-classsystem

    , @Jason Liu
    Why? Democracy is in no way better than authoritarianism, on average. If anything it's the cause of most problems in developed countries.
    , @DB Cooper
    This is one of the blind spots Indian have in regards to China. India is much more authoritarian than China. One way to gauge how authoritarian a society is is to observe how common people react to the law enforcement. Do they see them as part of a civic society that serves them or see them as a tool used by the government to control them? India is definitely the later. In India people won't even go to the police even if they get robbed because they would be asking for more trouble if they did. In India the police is seen by the public as a tool by the government to soften up the crowd if a VIP visit town. India is a much more controlling society. Even getting a telephone sim card has to submit a lot of paperwork. In China at least some years ago you can get a telephone sim card anonymously anywhere.
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  3. Yan Shen says:

    Granted, there’s little hostile hysteria over China the way the Establishment is currently freaking out over the modest challenge posed by Russia, with only one-ninth of China’s population. But there’s not much enthusiasm for China, either.

    Well didn’t uh some guy named Donald Trump just decide to impose $50 billion worth of tariffs on over 1,300 Chinese exports?

    http://money.cnn.com/2018/04/03/news/economy/us-tariffs-china/index.html

    Also, I seem to remember FBI director Christopher Wray recently freaking out over the Chinese as well.

    https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2018/02/15/fbi-director-testifies-chinese-students-and-intelligence-threats

    So one of the things we’re trying to do is view the China threat as not just a whole-of-government threat but a whole-of-society threat on their end, and I think it’s going to take a whole-of-society response by us.

    Now I don’t know what a whole of society response entails, but quite frankly that kind of tone worries me as a Chinese American. And let’s not forget Congress basically pressuring AT&T, Verizon, and Best Buy into dropping Huawei phones as well. I see clear signs of Sinophobia being on the rise in this country and quite frankly it worries me.

    For example, Chinese higher education isn’t yet competitive on the world stage, but China appears to be doing a decent job of educating the masses in the basics.

    Not quite. Yes, Chinese universities are still in a relatively nascent state of ascent. But, as I pointed out in my article on the math/verbal split, in certain quantitative areas Chinese universities are already near or at the fore.

    http://www.unz.com/article/iq-or-the-mathverbal-split/

    Based on the number of papers in the top 10% of citations, East Asian universities clearly excel at mathematics and computer science and physical sciences and engineering relative to the other three categories. For the time period of 2012-2015 and ranked by total number of top 10% papers based on citation rate, East Asia had 5 of the top 10 universities in physical sciences and engineering and 8 out of the top 10 universities in mathematics and computer science.

    By contrast when looking at total top 10% papers in the field of biomedical and health sciences, the highest ranked East Asian university was Shanghai Jiao Tong at 48th. For life and earth sciences, the highest ranked East Asian university was Zhejiang at 20th. And in social sciences and humanities, the top rated East Asian university was National University of Singapore at a fairly low 80th place.

    US News Global for instance, also ranks Tsinghua as the #1 computer science and #1 engineering school worldwide as well. In the same manner that notions of aggregate IQ tend to be somewhat misleading when it comes to understanding East Asian academic/career orientations, aggregate university performance across all disciplines leads to the same skewed picture…

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    • Troll: AndrewR
    • Replies: @JMcG
    It’s disingenuous to attribute some of the recent moves by the US government to Sinophobia. It’s down to industrial and government sponsored espionage as you must know.
    , @Luke Lea
    Ya Shen writes: "Now I don’t know what a whole of society response entails, but quite frankly that kind of tone worries me as a Chinese American."

    Hopefully this will not become a problem, especially as Chinese are rapidly intermarrying with whites and given that the Euro-Asian combination is quite attractive to the eye. Of course there is a certain amount of cultural pride among Chinese Americans individually as they see the home country rise. How could they not feel that way given the way China was mistreated in the past? But to the extent that they integrate and assimilate into American society -- and drop that law suit against Harvard -- I think everything will be fine.

    , @anon

    ...quite frankly that kind of tone worries me as a Chinese American.
     
    There is no such thing as a "Chinese-American". You are either Chinese or you are American. As Woodrow Wilson said: any man who considers himself a member of a national group has not yet become an American. If you are an American, drop the Chinese name and adopt an American name like all those who came before you -- generations ago German and Nordic Americans anglicized their first and last name to declare loyalty to this country, today's ungrateful immigrants need to do the same.

    The Chinese have a bad habit of hanging on to their culture and language everywhere they go instead of assimilating, that's why they are hated throughout Southeast Asia, just like the Jews who refused to assimilate and were hated throughout the western world, and who are now encouraging this toxic attitude in all the newcomers by promoting diversity through their stranglehold of the media and academia. Their goal is to turn America into the Disunited States of America, so they are not the only out group. Do not fall for their multiculturalism claptrap. Assimilate or move the hell back to China.

    Before you call me a white nationalist racist, I'm actually of Asian descent, and I'm sick and tired of all the newly arrived Chinese taking over this country by arriving in large numbers, then insisting on speaking loudly in their language wherever they go. The US needs to cut off all immigration from China and India ASAP and boot these parasites back to where they came from before they turn us into the next China or India. If those countries were so nice and their culture so great, none of these beggars would be here. But as soon as they get here, they start talking about how great and how awesome the motherland is, and how great their culture is, what a joke. Why are they here in the first place? Anyone who calls himself a Chinese American or Indian American needs to move the hell back to China or India. They are Chinese or Indian, not American.

    , @Bob who would have you choose
    YS says "that kind of tone worries me as a Chinese American".

    I reply choose to be an American of Chinese descent or GTFO.
    , @Anonym
    Now I don’t know what a whole of society response entails, but quite frankly that kind of tone worries me as a Chinese American

    Why are there no "American Chinese"? Or "White Chinese"? There were in Taiwan but what happened to them?
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  4. Chiron says:

    China is now fully backing Russia, the Chinese Minister of Defense was in Moscow recently and said that Russian and Chinese Armies are friends.

    It’s seems the Western elite wants a confrontation with Russia and China to save the “Liberal World Order” (is how it’s called in the WaPo), Nixon and Kissinger separated China from the Soviet Union but now the thinking is different.

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    • Replies: @Peter Akuleyev
    Russia is in real danger of becoming another dependency of China rather than an ally. The Chinese respect Putin but in general have nothing but contempt for Russians, whom they consider undisciplined drunks and a source of excellent prostitutes. The Chinese already control the economy of the Russian Far East to an alarming degree and are eager to take over more and more of Russia's resources. The Russians probably figure they can manage the Chinese more easily than the West, who also want Russia's resources, but my impression is that Russians generally dramatically underestimate how intelligent and resourceful the Chinese are. Too many Russians still believe in their own racial superiority.
    , @rogue-one
    It's kind of strange.

    Russia is a declining power, America is the current hegemony, China is a rising power. In a more rational world, Russia & America would be allies trying to contain the rise of China.

    But instead, American trade and foreign policies are designed to help China & hurt Russia.
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  5. anon[240] • Disclaimer says:

    The Chinese often tout their multi-millenia contiguous history as a single civilization, and the claim that this makes them the “oldest” such civilization. To what extent is this true or myth?

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    • Replies: @Peter Akuleyev

    To what extent is this true or myth?
     
    To the extent modern Chinese believe it is true, than it is basically true. Sure, you can poke holes - a modern Chinese without training can no more read Confucius in the original than a modern Greek can read Aristotle or a modern Italian can read Lucretius, but the Chinese never adopted a totalizing religion that tried to overthrow centuries of tradition the way Christianity created a rupture with the ancient Mediterranean culture. Arguably Communism could have been that rupture, but it seems to have failed.
    , @Samuel Skinner
    Highly. There is a bit of a disconnect where the earliest parts (pre-2200 years old) did not cover the entire core of China, but that is it. The people and culture have an uninterrupted progression from then to modern times and the high culture was resiliant- the characters stayed the same from 500-1946 AD, although you could go back to 200 BC and have it be relatively similar. Like if you could read Beowulf without it having to be translated.
    , @Luke Lea
    "The Chinese often tout their multi-millenia contiguous history as a single civilization, and the claim that this makes them the “oldest” such civilization. To what extent is this true or myth?"

    A better question is to what extent is this a good thing or a bad? Look at Egypt. Or at India for that matter. Modern Western Civilization, though it has its roots in ancient Greek, Roman, and Hebrew culture and ideas, is something fundamentally new. It's unlike anything that ever existed before, thank God.

    , @Jack D
    Yes and no. Chinese imperial dynasties were often not even Chinese (any more than the British royal dynasty is British). What tended to happen was that Chinese culture is so big (it is really the "Rome" of Asia) that it would always swallow the conqueror's culture without a trace . Chinese Confucian culture has even swallowed Communism - The "Chinese Communist Party" is more Chinese that it is Communist.
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  6. rogue-one says:

    A small note

    >the parts of India that are doing best today, such as, in their ideologically different ways, capitalist Bangalore and leftist Kerala, tend to be in the more Dravidian, less Aryan south.

    Kerala seems to be doing well because of remittances sent back from migrant labor working in the capitalist economies of Middle-East.

    “‘Last year India received $70 billion in remittances – more than any other country in the world. The state of Kerala got far more than its fair share. A comprehensive household survey organised by Irudaya Rajan of the Centre for Development Studies, a local academic institution, finds that 2.4m Keralites were living and working overseas in 2014. The money they send home is equivalent to fully 36% of the state’s domestic product. “For all practical purposes, it’s a remittance economy,” says C.P. John of the state government.”

    http://eprints.lse.ac.uk/77109/1/LSE%20International%20Development%20–%20What%20difference%20do%20remittances%20and%20migration%20make%20back%20home_%20Duncan%20Green%20selects%20from%20the%20Economist.pdf

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  7. grapesoda says:

    Thousands of years of Brahmin speculations didn’t do much for India’s prosperity…

    Um, it didn’t?

    https://imgur.com/gallery/4hNsD

    Why do you think Christopher Columbus was trying to get to India? For trade obviously.

    Between this and last week’s weird theory about how most Indians think the British instituted the caste system, Steve is clearly out of his depth when it comes to India. But that’s OK. I wouldn’t even try to take on as much as he does.

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    • Replies: @snorlax
    Those numbers are preposterous and clearly based on PC bullsh*ttery.

    India higher than Britain in 1870?
    China higher than Britain in 1900?
    China's GDP share (not absolute GDP) grows massively between 1700 and 1820?
    Germany shrinks by half from 1913 to 1970?
    USA doubles between 1870 and 1900, but Britain unchanged?
    Japan and Italy larger than Britain in 1700?
    US (already population 270,000 and known for having the world's highest standard of living) negligible in 1700?
    , @John Pepple
    "... last week’s weird theory about how most Indians think the British instituted the caste system..."

    No, he said that it was anthropologists who were saying that.
    , @indocon
    Pre industrial revolution, pre capita GDP was pretty uniform across most farming societies, as such you expect India to have higher share of world GDP. That changed with invention of steam engine, and the bar charts show that.
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  8. Yan Shen says:

    India puts much of its effort into higher education, while allowing its mass schooling to be awful. Two Indian states tried the PISA test in 2009 and both scored at sub-Saharan levels, with the northern state doing even worse than the southern state. In math, Indian eighth graders performed at the level of South Korean third graders.

    Not sure if this was meant to contrast with China’s higher education versus mass education, but in the case of India, by any reasonable metric or rankings its universities are significantly worse than those of China.

    And the Indians tend to be more verbally agile than the Chinese and more adept at the kind of high-level abstract thinking required by modern computer science, law, and soft major academia.

    Well you’re definitely right about the Indian skew towards verbal and their greater representation relative to Chinese Americans in business, law, and politics. Not sure if I agree about comp sci though. Comp sci generally is one of China’s stronger academic areas, if you once again look at my article on the math/verbal split.

    https://www.usnews.com/education/best-global-universities/search?country=china&country=hong-kong&country=india&country=singapore&country=taiwan&subject=computer-science&page=4

    For instance, the US News global ranking for CS which has Tsinghua at number 1 and various greater China universities in the top 20, has the highest ranking Indian university for comp sci at 132.

    My general impression from having worked in tech for the past number of years is that Chinese/Indian Americans are probably comparable in numbers at most of the major tech companies in the Bay Area, but perhaps I’m wrong about that.

    I think a lot of the modern day American affinity for India as opposed to China is 1) India is democratic and as uh everyone knows liberal democracies are obviously the End of History to which every Last Man wants to aspire to 2) as you point out Indians tend to be more verbally facile and if not in skin tone at least in terms of facial morphology are obviously a lot closer to Europeans given that South Asians are Caucasoid

    I think another understated fact is that most Americans deep down don’t really view India as much of a real threat to American hegemony, hence their kinder perspective towards the country as well…

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  9. grapesoda says:

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    • Replies: @Sunbeam
    That graph...

    I've done a bit of reading on this very subject. For most of human history the relative proportion of world economic activity accomplished by China and India total has been what you see on that graph up to 1820.

    Pretty much since agriculture was invented. We are talking about going back to about 3 o r 4 thousand BC, though I think you could definitely quibble about whatever methodology the economists who estimated this came up with.

    What is surprising to me is that for most of that time India has surpassed China's productivity.

    What you see now with the two nations' relative disparity in that regard is as much an anomaly as Europeean/US ascendance starting about 1820.

    Well apparently China got their shit together again. Whatever India did before, it is hard to see them reassuming their historical role in the world economic hierarchy though.
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  10. wren says:

    I don’t know about mainland China, but in other Asian countries I have been in one’s blood type seems to come up way more than in the west.

    I always figured that it was one way for fairly homogenous folks to find some diversity.

    With Xinjiang and Tibet there is diversity in China though.

    If all these articles about China’s social credit score, ubiquitous face and iris scanning cameras, dna databases, and full on top to bottom surveillance of people’s online and offline lives are accurate, the state will not be permitting too much genuine diversity moving forward.

    I don’t know if the state is more afraid of the people or the people are more afraid of the state or I am just projecting and afraid of what is already here in the west and surely coming in the future, but it is all depressing.

    Someone once told me a story about visiting India and stepping out of the airport and being just clobbered by all the sights and sounds and especially smells. After watching a lady walk down the street crapping out her sari as she went, he turned around and went back in the airport and got a flight home.

    Later I learned that that is a medical condition often caused by giving birth, and very easily treatable, but not in India for poor lower caste women.

    That story stuck with me though as representing India, but also maybe because I am reminded of it every time I see drugged out homeless zombies shuffling around my own neighborhood.

    The future is not feeling so great right now to me anywhere.

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    • Replies: @rogue-one
    >Someone once told me a story about visiting India and stepping out of the airport and being just clobbered by all the sights and sounds and especially smells. After watching a lady walk down the street crapping out her sari as she went, he turned around and went back in the airport and got a flight home.

    Cool story bro!
    , @Anonymous
    Never been to India, but since I was old enough to realise such things, perhaps 7 years old or younger, the reportage of Indian poverty, as shown on TV, has haunted me.

    A dark, dark conscious or subconscious fear of mine has always been that the UK would end up 'as poor as India' due to political/economic mismanagement.

    The Economist seems to be doing a bang-up job on that score.
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  11. I have a theory about India that’s kind of like my Dirt Gap theory about American cities, which is that because India is shaped like an upside down pyramid, southern Indians live closer to the shore and thus are more exposed to the outside world, while, say, the 200 million residents of Uttar Pradesh on the Ganges live deep inland and thus miss out on exposure to outside ideas.

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    • Replies: @jimmyriddle
    The north was under Muslim rule for much longer. Islam is a hell of a drug.
    , @Anonymous
    That's only the case for seaborne influences. British influence is stronger along the coast, but Islamic influence is stronger in the North because it came by land.

    Also I think the fact that Islam killed off the intellectuals in the North, and made their societies very conservative, is one reason for the North south difference. Kind of like what the Mongols did to Baghdad.
    , @PiltdownMan
    Perhaps the inland types got at least some exposure to outside ideas from invasions, most recently, the British, who got to the Punjab in the late 1840s.

    http://www.vam.ac.uk/content/articles/t/sikh-wars-and-annexation-of-the-panjab/

    http://kemu.edu.pk/history/

    , @Anonymous
    More basic to that is the fact the south is Dravidian speaking and the north Aryan speaking.
    Hence, likely there are different genetic strains operating.

    Not so long ago north Indians used to generally look down upon south Indians as 'impoverished duplicitous weaklings'.
    , @Nigerian Nationalist
    Wonder which other part of the world the same could be said for...just on the tip of my tongue I swear...Afrin? Afrit?

    It'll come to me.
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  12. I’ve spent time in China and India. The feeling you get very quickly in China is that someone there is in charge, that everyone know this, and they behave themselves. If you cross that line, the fist will come down very hard. In India it’s almost immediately obvious that nobody is in charge. India is a lot more entertaining, fun and colorful than China, but looking to the future; it’s all China.

    China is meritocracy pretending to be communism: India is communism pretending to be democracy.

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    • Replies: @Escher

    India is communism pretending to be democracy.
     
    India is semi-controlled anarchy, period! People there talk big but are unable to back up their words with performance.
    , @Anon
    India is communism pretending to be democracy.

    But communism means order.
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  13. But there’s not much enthusiasm for China, either.

    In an age of postmodern postnationalism that worships diversity, China is old-fashioned. It’s homogeneous, nationalist, and modernist. China seems to have utilitarian 1950s values.

    That’s even truer than your a tad too simplistic explanation for the rise of Nietzsche amongst Postmodernists (Foucault carrying on the flame of Nietzsche’s dark arguments).

    My explanation for Nietzsche’s overwhelming postmodern success is fairly straightfoward too, I have to admit: Nietzsche’s work is the closest every thinker ever got to the pubertarian mindset of the unrestictable adventurous grandeur.

    To achieve this, he not only had to attack reason and power (be it worldy or otherworldy), but the modern world’s foundation of those in reasonable exchange of arguments = the free discourse itself.

    For academic teachers, it is easier, to give in to their enthusiastic young scholar’s Nietzschean attacks on the very foundations of the liberal academic (=the enlightened) world, than to openly resist them. (That’s what now Jordan B. Peterson (for example) does). It wass about time, someone like him stood up against Nitzschean postmodernism. I wish him well!

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    • Replies: @rogue-one
    To be fair, Nietzsche would have nothing but contempt for post-modern academics like Foucault or Derrida or Judith Butler.

    These parasitic academics simply use the weaponry provided by Nietzsche to destroy the foundations of the western civilization. If it is not Nietzsche, they would use Marx or any other author. Just like Hitler just liked to invade, and would use any argument to justify it, these post-mods just want to destroy the west and will use any argument to do so. Nietzsche today, Marx tomorrow, Luther day after tomorrow.

    Mr. Peterson seems to have a lot of respect for Nietzsche though Peterson respects Christianity a lot more than Nietzsche ever did.

    I feel that true heirs to Nietzsche are geneticists who would, perhaps unwittingly in some decades, bring out a genetic caste based society that Nietzsche would admire.
    , @MBlanc46
    “Pubertarian”. Lovely. I’ll use it.
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  14. China has one fundamental weakness which will keep it from ruling the future, and that is the far right end of the bell curve. The Chinese may have a higher IQ than Europeans on average (and much higher than Indians), but they have far less variation at the very top. Amd it is this very top from which almost all innovation arises. Even the Brahmin-caste Indians are more likely to produce intellectual outliers at the top end than the Chinese are. Or at least based on what I’ve observed from the performance of the Hindu community in US compared to the Chinese.

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    • Replies: @Yan Shen
    Based on the huge degree of Chinese American over-representation at the tail end on things such as the USAMO/IMO, this seems to not be well supported.

    For instance, in my article on the math/verbal split, I pointed out that eyeballing last names seemed to indicate that something like 65% of 2016 USAMO qualifiers were East Asian. The vast majority of those were Chinese and Korean, with very few Japanese, and if I had to venture a guess I would say that Chinese outnumbered Koreans by something like 5-6 to 1 among the USAMO qualifiers I looked at, despite the overall Chinese American population outnumbering the Korean American population by only something like 2.6 to 1. (Obviously this isn't necessarily the ratio of the two groups among recent high school cohorts, but still.)

    https://www.imo-official.org/country_individual_r.aspx?code=USA

    Similarly for the US IMO teams in recent years, Chinese Americans are hugely over-represented, although obviously only 6 people qualify for the team each year. For instance out of the 6 man team, Chinese Americans have made up 4, 3, 2, 4, and 4 of the competitors in the past 5 years!

    In fact none of this should be particularly surprising. Chinese Americans are disproportionately over-represented in America's top schools, top science labs around the country, and at the top companies in Silicon Valley, especially in technical/quantitatively oriented roles. And as I pointed out in my article, Chinese science has made significant increases post-2000, especially in quantitative areas.


    However, as has been clear to those most carefully following the rise of China in S&T, the country exhibits a clear preference for quantitative fields, in particular physics, chemistry, engineering, mathematics, and computer science. As noted by Australian academic Simon Marginson, “in 2000 China authored just 0.6 percent of chemistry papers ranked in the global top one percent on citation rate in the Web of Science. Only 12 years later, in 2012, China published 16.3% of the leading one percent of papers, half as many as the US- an astonishing rate of improvement. There were similar patterns in engineering, physics and computing- where China publishes more top one percent papers than the US- and mathematics (NSF, 2014.) China, Taiwan, Korea, Japan, and to some degree Singapore, have concentrated research development in the physical sciences and related applied fields like engineering, computing and materials.

     

    If you haven't done so, I suggest giving my article a read. In particular one of the things it argues against is Steve's casual assertion here that Indians excel relative to Chinese in computer science. The vast body of university rankings evidence indicates that this is simply not true. Computer science is one of China's strong academic fields of specialization!

    http://www.unz.com/article/iq-or-the-mathverbal-split/

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  15. @Chiron
    China is now fully backing Russia, the Chinese Minister of Defense was in Moscow recently and said that Russian and Chinese Armies are friends.

    It’s seems the Western elite wants a confrontation with Russia and China to save the “Liberal World Order” (is how it’s called in the WaPo), Nixon and Kissinger separated China from the Soviet Union but now the thinking is different.

    Russia is in real danger of becoming another dependency of China rather than an ally. The Chinese respect Putin but in general have nothing but contempt for Russians, whom they consider undisciplined drunks and a source of excellent prostitutes. The Chinese already control the economy of the Russian Far East to an alarming degree and are eager to take over more and more of Russia’s resources. The Russians probably figure they can manage the Chinese more easily than the West, who also want Russia’s resources, but my impression is that Russians generally dramatically underestimate how intelligent and resourceful the Chinese are. Too many Russians still believe in their own racial superiority.

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    • Replies: @Luke Lea
    I imagine Russia will eventually be in defensive alliance with the West. "Hold'em at the Urals" will be the battle cry. Or maybe not.
    , @Jason Liu
    Not sure where you're getting that from. There is some condescension towards Russians for being not as rich as western countries, and maybe a bit crude when it comes to visitors. But I wouldn't say Chinese people have contempt for Russians overall.
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  16. This has probably been asked before, but when did takimag stop allowing comments? Did they ever say why?

    Yeah, they were usually bad, but that had more to do with Disqus, which is designed to highlight the worst comments.

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    • Replies: @OFWHAP
    If you're using a "Do Not Track" extension, such as Blur or Ghostery, then you could be blocking Disqus. You'll have to whitelist Disqus to see comments.
    , @Anonymous
    They posted this on March 29:

    http://takimag.com/article/gag_reflex/print#axzz5BfkGoydE

    The post is snarky and nonsensical, but it seems to be saying (1) they don't like the antisemitic comments, (2) they will print comments received from readers in the form of email along the lines of what the Atlantic is doing, and (3) the comments may eventually return.

    I can't imagine sending email comments. Be real. That's the point where it's not a comment and becomes a pitch for a piece I'd want to be paid for.

    I have run websites with comments where we have programmed our own webapps, and if you handle it that way and don't outsource it to an outside service, you can really keep a lid on things. Ron is able to do this, I think, even though he seems to be building on top of WordPress. You have to not care about false positives, but, hey, it's your website and nobody has a right to comment. Among the things that we did were IP address bans, banned word lists, and regular expression bans. The latter helped us stop everyone from exchanging email addresses and social media accounts, because you can construct a regular expression that takes care of things like spacing out letters or substitutions or other obfuscations (and yes, you get false positives). If you construct a shadow ban system (also called "Tachy goes to Coventry"), it works even better.
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  17. Looks like we will see a real life test between two approaches: One society based on ethnic homogeneity and the other based on complex ethnic diversity.

    Both countries are rated about the same by CATO in terms of freedom (India being a bit higher).

    I think everyone’s money is on China winning.

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  18. @anon
    The Chinese often tout their multi-millenia contiguous history as a single civilization, and the claim that this makes them the "oldest" such civilization. To what extent is this true or myth?

    To what extent is this true or myth?

    To the extent modern Chinese believe it is true, than it is basically true. Sure, you can poke holes – a modern Chinese without training can no more read Confucius in the original than a modern Greek can read Aristotle or a modern Italian can read Lucretius, but the Chinese never adopted a totalizing religion that tried to overthrow centuries of tradition the way Christianity created a rupture with the ancient Mediterranean culture. Arguably Communism could have been that rupture, but it seems to have failed.

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  19. Anonym says:

    China has an enormous advantage over India: relative homogeneity. In China there is no significant difference in racial appearance between the rich and the poor. They come from the same people. In India, you can see a colour line dividing classes every inch of the way. Sure these lines aren’t cut and dry like black and white, and there are overlaps, but the trends are easy to follow for anyone willing to observe. The fact that the Chinese don’t have 4000 year old caste hatreds gives them the advantage over India.

    That and the IQ advantage.

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    • Replies: @Flip
    The US ruling class used to be the same ethnicity as the rest of the population. That is much less true now.
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  20. JMcG says:
    @Yan Shen

    Granted, there’s little hostile hysteria over China the way the Establishment is currently freaking out over the modest challenge posed by Russia, with only one-ninth of China’s population. But there’s not much enthusiasm for China, either.
     
    Well didn't uh some guy named Donald Trump just decide to impose $50 billion worth of tariffs on over 1,300 Chinese exports?

    http://money.cnn.com/2018/04/03/news/economy/us-tariffs-china/index.html

    Also, I seem to remember FBI director Christopher Wray recently freaking out over the Chinese as well.

    https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2018/02/15/fbi-director-testifies-chinese-students-and-intelligence-threats


    So one of the things we’re trying to do is view the China threat as not just a whole-of-government threat but a whole-of-society threat on their end, and I think it’s going to take a whole-of-society response by us.

     

    Now I don't know what a whole of society response entails, but quite frankly that kind of tone worries me as a Chinese American. And let's not forget Congress basically pressuring AT&T, Verizon, and Best Buy into dropping Huawei phones as well. I see clear signs of Sinophobia being on the rise in this country and quite frankly it worries me.

    For example, Chinese higher education isn’t yet competitive on the world stage, but China appears to be doing a decent job of educating the masses in the basics.
     
    Not quite. Yes, Chinese universities are still in a relatively nascent state of ascent. But, as I pointed out in my article on the math/verbal split, in certain quantitative areas Chinese universities are already near or at the fore.

    http://www.unz.com/article/iq-or-the-mathverbal-split/


    Based on the number of papers in the top 10% of citations, East Asian universities clearly excel at mathematics and computer science and physical sciences and engineering relative to the other three categories. For the time period of 2012-2015 and ranked by total number of top 10% papers based on citation rate, East Asia had 5 of the top 10 universities in physical sciences and engineering and 8 out of the top 10 universities in mathematics and computer science.

    By contrast when looking at total top 10% papers in the field of biomedical and health sciences, the highest ranked East Asian university was Shanghai Jiao Tong at 48th. For life and earth sciences, the highest ranked East Asian university was Zhejiang at 20th. And in social sciences and humanities, the top rated East Asian university was National University of Singapore at a fairly low 80th place.
     

    US News Global for instance, also ranks Tsinghua as the #1 computer science and #1 engineering school worldwide as well. In the same manner that notions of aggregate IQ tend to be somewhat misleading when it comes to understanding East Asian academic/career orientations, aggregate university performance across all disciplines leads to the same skewed picture...

    It’s disingenuous to attribute some of the recent moves by the US government to Sinophobia. It’s down to industrial and government sponsored espionage as you must know.

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  21. Sunbeam says:
    @grapesoda
    https://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/mt/assets/business/gdp11.png

    That graph…

    I’ve done a bit of reading on this very subject. For most of human history the relative proportion of world economic activity accomplished by China and India total has been what you see on that graph up to 1820.

    Pretty much since agriculture was invented. We are talking about going back to about 3 o r 4 thousand BC, though I think you could definitely quibble about whatever methodology the economists who estimated this came up with.

    What is surprising to me is that for most of that time India has surpassed China’s productivity.

    What you see now with the two nations’ relative disparity in that regard is as much an anomaly as Europeean/US ascendance starting about 1820.

    Well apparently China got their shit together again. Whatever India did before, it is hard to see them reassuming their historical role in the world economic hierarchy though.

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  22. jim jones says:

    India versus China:

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  23. snorlax says:
    @grapesoda

    Thousands of years of Brahmin speculations didn’t do much for India’s prosperity...
     
    Um, it didn't?

    https://imgur.com/gallery/4hNsD

    Why do you think Christopher Columbus was trying to get to India? For trade obviously.

    Between this and last week's weird theory about how most Indians think the British instituted the caste system, Steve is clearly out of his depth when it comes to India. But that's OK. I wouldn't even try to take on as much as he does.

    Those numbers are preposterous and clearly based on PC bullsh*ttery.

    India higher than Britain in 1870?
    China higher than Britain in 1900?
    China’s GDP share (not absolute GDP) grows massively between 1700 and 1820?
    Germany shrinks by half from 1913 to 1970?
    USA doubles between 1870 and 1900, but Britain unchanged?
    Japan and Italy larger than Britain in 1700?
    US (already population 270,000 and known for having the world’s highest standard of living) negligible in 1700?

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    • Replies: @Halal Butcher of Lhasa
    "Those numbers are preposterous "---I agree
    Such bar graph on GDP stretched back to 1000s of years has little meaning because tribes/countries popped up and faded away all the time. The arabs were originally small tribes in the Persian gulf area and emerged as a major civilization through islam and now mostly fucked up and in decline.
    The person who posted the graph did so to arouse nostalgia to ease the mental anguish
    , @PiltdownMan
    The below linked article and the accompanying graph in The Atlantic (surprisingly) are more honest.

    Before the Industrial revolution, a country's share of world GDP was roughly proportional to its share of the world's population. There were no significant labor productivity differences in pre-industrial times. After 1800, the West's share became disproportionately large relative to its population, thanks to the productivity gains of the Industrial revolution. Since about 1980, China's (and to a lesser extent India's) share of world GDP is climbing back up, as they industrialize.

    https://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/mt/assets/business/Screen%20Shot%202012-06-20%20at%209.37.55%20AM.png

    https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/06/the-economic-history-of-the-last-2-000-years-in-1-little-graph/258676/


    So, one way to read the graph, very broadly speaking, is that everything to the left of 1800 is an approximation of population distribution around the world and everything to the right of 1800 is a demonstration of productivity divergences around the world -- the mastering of means of manufacturing, production and supply chains by steam, electricity, and ultimately software that concentrated, first in the West, and then spread to Japan, Russia, China, India, Brazil, and beyond.


     

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  24. Flip says:

    China and Russia are buying lots of gold. We should do likewise. I am not optimistic about the future of the US dollar. At some point the exporting of green pieces of paper for real goods and services won’t be as easy.

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  25. @Steve Sailer
    I have a theory about India that's kind of like my Dirt Gap theory about American cities, which is that because India is shaped like an upside down pyramid, southern Indians live closer to the shore and thus are more exposed to the outside world, while, say, the 200 million residents of Uttar Pradesh on the Ganges live deep inland and thus miss out on exposure to outside ideas.

    The north was under Muslim rule for much longer. Islam is a hell of a drug.

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  26. rogue-one says:
    @wren
    I don't know about mainland China, but in other Asian countries I have been in one's blood type seems to come up way more than in the west.

    I always figured that it was one way for fairly homogenous folks to find some diversity.

    With Xinjiang and Tibet there is diversity in China though.

    If all these articles about China's social credit score, ubiquitous face and iris scanning cameras, dna databases, and full on top to bottom surveillance of people's online and offline lives are accurate, the state will not be permitting too much genuine diversity moving forward.

    I don't know if the state is more afraid of the people or the people are more afraid of the state or I am just projecting and afraid of what is already here in the west and surely coming in the future, but it is all depressing.

    Someone once told me a story about visiting India and stepping out of the airport and being just clobbered by all the sights and sounds and especially smells. After watching a lady walk down the street crapping out her sari as she went, he turned around and went back in the airport and got a flight home.

    Later I learned that that is a medical condition often caused by giving birth, and very easily treatable, but not in India for poor lower caste women.

    That story stuck with me though as representing India, but also maybe because I am reminded of it every time I see drugged out homeless zombies shuffling around my own neighborhood.

    The future is not feeling so great right now to me anywhere.

    >Someone once told me a story about visiting India and stepping out of the airport and being just clobbered by all the sights and sounds and especially smells. After watching a lady walk down the street crapping out her sari as she went, he turned around and went back in the airport and got a flight home.

    Cool story bro!

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  27. Coag says:

    The most striking feature of Chinese society may be its homogeneity but the corollary is that in China everyone thinks he can be the emperor and that the emperor is no better/smarter/wiser than him. This idea is inalienable from Chinese society and indeed quasi-sanctified— the founders of the Han and Ming dynasties was a peasant and a street beggar, respectively, who fought their ways to the top. This well-established career of peasant class warrior was played to great advantage by Mao. Its whole 2000-year tradition is a perpetual source of social instability during times of economic crisis or decline.

    The caste system of India on the other hand, despite being deeply unsettling and physically repulsive to the average Chinese or Western observer, does confer tremendous social stability. All the weight of religion, tradition, and humanity there is intended to stamp out any aspirations to improve or change one’s lot. During times of economic crisis or decline this comes in handy to preserving the bonds of community.

    Current America with its baroquely bizarre leftist assumptions combines the worst features of China and India. By importing and promoting all sorts of wandering tribes, cults, sects, we lucky Americans aspire to be as race- and caste-stratified as India, while simultaneously teaching as the Chinese do that even the most ignorant lumpenproletarian should have aspirations to the office of the emperor.

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    • Agree: Luke Lea
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  28. rogue-one says:
    @Chiron
    China is now fully backing Russia, the Chinese Minister of Defense was in Moscow recently and said that Russian and Chinese Armies are friends.

    It’s seems the Western elite wants a confrontation with Russia and China to save the “Liberal World Order” (is how it’s called in the WaPo), Nixon and Kissinger separated China from the Soviet Union but now the thinking is different.

    It’s kind of strange.

    Russia is a declining power, America is the current hegemony, China is a rising power. In a more rational world, Russia & America would be allies trying to contain the rise of China.

    But instead, American trade and foreign policies are designed to help China & hurt Russia.

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    • Agree: RadicalCenter
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    After the Gorbachev/Yeltsin years in which The Economist run west grossly over-played its free hand in Russia, and gloried in grinding the faces of Russians into the shit, whilst looting and raping their Motherland, Russia will *never ever* trust America or the West again.
    , @MBlanc46
    It’s not national power or glory that drive things today, but maximum profit for bankers and capitalists.
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  29. Luke Lea says:

    Steve writes: “Much of the class hatred in America stems from the suspicions of the intelligentsia that plumbers and mechanics are using their voodoo cognitive ability of staring at 3-D physical objects and somehow understanding why they are broken to overcharge them for repairs. Thus it’s only fair, America’s white-collar managers assume, that they export factory jobs to lower-paid China so that they can afford to throw manufactured junk away when it breaks and buy new junk rather than have to subject themselves to the humiliation of admitting to educationally inferior American repairmen that they don’t understand what is wrong with their own gizmos.”

    That sounds funny but I had a friend of a friend in Manhattan who literally did not know how to use a screwdriver. Granted, she was a she but I don’t think she knew how to change a lightbulb either. Call the super. And then there is the old Jewish self-humor riddle: What does a Jew do when he gets a flat tire? Answer? Buys a new car.

    In Israel, how are the old Sabra values of physical self-reliance holding up among the third generation? Anybody know?

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    • Replies: @Anon
    And then there is the old Jewish self-humor riddle: What does a Jew do when he gets a flat tire? Answer? Buys a new car.

    So, all those Polack Jokes were projections?
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  30. countenance says: • Website

    First off, has anyone noticed that Taki isn’t taking comments?

    Now, for the meat of the matter:

    Much of the class hatred in America stems from the suspicions of the intelligentsia that plumbers and mechanics are using their voodoo cognitive ability of staring at 3-D physical objects and somehow understanding why they are broken to overcharge them for repairs. Thus it’s only fair, America’s white-collar managers assume, that they export factory jobs to lower-paid China so that they can afford to throw manufactured junk away when it breaks and buy new junk rather than have to subject themselves to the humiliation of admitting to educationally inferior American repairmen that they don’t understand what is wrong with their own gizmos.

    Beautiful.

    And the Indians tend to be more verbally agile than the Chinese and more adept at the kind of high-level abstract thinking required by modern computer science, law, and soft major academia. Thousands of years of Brahmin speculations didn’t do much for India’s prosperity, but somehow have prepared Indians to make fortunes in 21st-century America.

    Haven’t you noticed that a lot of “American” social scientists that study things like urban issues, class issues, race issues and economic mobility are Indian immigrants? It starts with Chetty Chetty Bang Bang, but there are any number of others.

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    • Replies: @pyrrhus
    First off, has anyone noticed that Taki isn’t taking comments?

    We've noticed...That, along with the popups makes it a no go site.
    , @Flip
    I've run across an increasing number of Indian/Pakistani Big Law guys in NY and Chicago. They seem pretty capable.
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  31. India’s appeal to the west is obvious; anyone important enough to talk to knows English. That’s their edge when immigrating and securing jobs.

    As per the southies out-doing the northies per capita;
    Yes, as per Steve’s comment, the south was historically more linked to world trade. But more importantly, it was farther from the steppe. South India has been conquered fewer times, and Islamized less. While it absorbed fewer Hindu genes, it retained more Hindu culture. Buddhism also started in the north, so I wonder if it had less effect in the south.

    Fast forward to today. According to stereotypes among Indians, and prizes like the Nobel and the Fields medal, the only ethnicity in the north that produces many per-capita world-beating intellects are the cowardly, depressive, highly verbal Bengalis. Bengal only being Islamized recently, and on the opposite end of the country from Khyber pass.

    However, in the south, the Hindu controlled breeding program has been proceeding more generally uninterrupted. The Dravidian Brahmins are generally thought to be very good, with the Tamils on top. The Dravidian Brahmins are also very hard core about memorization as young children.

    This is before we get to social differences. In the north things are Malthusian. People at the bottom economic strata breed as much as possible, and live poorly, to say the least. In the south, people at the bottom breed less nowadays, and aren’t in such desperate straits.

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  32. Luke Lea says:

    A very nice article, Steve. You really do know how to ”get up a topic,” even if it is something you rarely write about. How do you do it?

    About Indians not good with their hands, what about surgeons? The best head and neck surgeon in the world, who operated on me when I had throat cancer at Sloan Kettering, was undoubtedly Hindu. True, he was assisted by a Muslim and a Jew. I told them to not get into a fight before I went under the anesthesia.

    P.S. And of course Jews make very good surgeons too. So this thing with the hands is more cultural than genetic, no? Though Chinese fingers are nimble, no doubt about that. How much of it is a male female thing?

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    • Replies: @Almost Missouri
    I think that childhood education in East Asia often involves delicate handwork tasks, e.g., origami in Japan, bead sorting in China, etc.

    Western, and particularly American, schools direct students to "keep their hands folded!" So unless the child grows up in a tradesman/craftsman household, of course he is going to be a manual incompetent.
    , @Numinous

    So this thing with the hands is more cultural than genetic, no?
     
    Yeah, I think that's right. Steve jumps too quickly to genetic differences where cultural taboos can explain so much.

    It's not the Chinese ability with handiwork that makes them a manufacturing hub, but the cheapness of their labor, and the acumen of their businessmen and politicians. I don't see the Chinese elite flocking to turn screws or welding plates in a factory; it's their peasants who desperately want to get out of their villages and be socially mobile. Chinese elites in the West pursue similar "gab-oriented" professions like Indians do.

    As for Indians, they still disdain manual labor, especially anything that feels "polluting". But we do have homegrown industrial cities with homegrown engineers, many of Brahmin ancestry, who do their own repairs and handwork (though less than Americans, as cheap labor is more readily available.)

    And the people who migrate from India to the US are drawn from the elite (either in terms of wealth or education.) The US accepts prole immigrants only from Central America; a prole Indian would have no prayer of getting a visa from his local US consulate.
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  33. Luke Lea says:
    @Ali Choudhury
    Excellent column. At the end of the day there will be one winner of the 21st century, the authoritarian Chinese which will be a tremendous shame.

    Ali Choudhury writes “Excellent column. At the end of the day there will be one winner of the 21st century, the authoritarian Chinese which will be a tremendous shame.”

    Not if all the advanced industrial democracies get together and leverage their combined industrial, commercial, technological, military, and especially financial power (control of international banking system) to keep China within civilized bounds. But that will require a new Democratic League.

    Fortunately China will always suffer from a serious soft-power deficit.

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    • Replies: @The Wobbly Guy
    That's surprisingly true. Despite its size n resources, China's influence in the Greater Sinosphere over the entertainment area has never matched Japan (anime, manga), Korea (variety shows, drama), or Taiwan n Hong Kong (pop music).
    , @Anonymous
    I'd rather be governed by China than be governed by the EU or the USA.

    Like China, the EU is a an undemocratic dictatorship.
    But there the resemblance ends. The Chinese leadership runs China for the good of the Chinese people.
    The EU Commission, on the other hand seems to be run purely for the benefit of every third worlder who manages to bumrush his way in.

    As I said, China is run by the Chinese for the Chinese.
    By contrast white American men are - by government fiat - legislated third class citizens in terms of racial/sexual discrimination in employment, education, government spending etc.
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  34. Numinous says:

    Steve,

    Minor typo in your Taki article: the person who identified common features between Sanskrit and European languages was “William Jones”, not “Edward Jones”.

    Also, I’m not sure if you’ve stopped trusting Razib Khan as a source for genetics info, but based on what I read on his blog, the theory that invading Indo-Europeans imposed a caste system in India to keep themselves privileged doesn’t hold much water (or at least, we must be highly skeptical about it.) The genetic history seems to indicate that all the racial mixing between ANI and ASI (or AASI) seems to have happened in the early centuries and millennia (2000 BC to 0), and somewhat abruptly stopped around the time of Christ (give or take a couple of centuries.) Clearly the current caste clusters are a reflection of “invader” ancestry, but it’s not at all clear that such groupings were the result of said invasions, rather than some other (as yet unclear) set of events.

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  35. Luke Lea says:
    @Yan Shen

    Granted, there’s little hostile hysteria over China the way the Establishment is currently freaking out over the modest challenge posed by Russia, with only one-ninth of China’s population. But there’s not much enthusiasm for China, either.
     
    Well didn't uh some guy named Donald Trump just decide to impose $50 billion worth of tariffs on over 1,300 Chinese exports?

    http://money.cnn.com/2018/04/03/news/economy/us-tariffs-china/index.html

    Also, I seem to remember FBI director Christopher Wray recently freaking out over the Chinese as well.

    https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2018/02/15/fbi-director-testifies-chinese-students-and-intelligence-threats


    So one of the things we’re trying to do is view the China threat as not just a whole-of-government threat but a whole-of-society threat on their end, and I think it’s going to take a whole-of-society response by us.

     

    Now I don't know what a whole of society response entails, but quite frankly that kind of tone worries me as a Chinese American. And let's not forget Congress basically pressuring AT&T, Verizon, and Best Buy into dropping Huawei phones as well. I see clear signs of Sinophobia being on the rise in this country and quite frankly it worries me.

    For example, Chinese higher education isn’t yet competitive on the world stage, but China appears to be doing a decent job of educating the masses in the basics.
     
    Not quite. Yes, Chinese universities are still in a relatively nascent state of ascent. But, as I pointed out in my article on the math/verbal split, in certain quantitative areas Chinese universities are already near or at the fore.

    http://www.unz.com/article/iq-or-the-mathverbal-split/


    Based on the number of papers in the top 10% of citations, East Asian universities clearly excel at mathematics and computer science and physical sciences and engineering relative to the other three categories. For the time period of 2012-2015 and ranked by total number of top 10% papers based on citation rate, East Asia had 5 of the top 10 universities in physical sciences and engineering and 8 out of the top 10 universities in mathematics and computer science.

    By contrast when looking at total top 10% papers in the field of biomedical and health sciences, the highest ranked East Asian university was Shanghai Jiao Tong at 48th. For life and earth sciences, the highest ranked East Asian university was Zhejiang at 20th. And in social sciences and humanities, the top rated East Asian university was National University of Singapore at a fairly low 80th place.
     

    US News Global for instance, also ranks Tsinghua as the #1 computer science and #1 engineering school worldwide as well. In the same manner that notions of aggregate IQ tend to be somewhat misleading when it comes to understanding East Asian academic/career orientations, aggregate university performance across all disciplines leads to the same skewed picture...

    Ya Shen writes: “Now I don’t know what a whole of society response entails, but quite frankly that kind of tone worries me as a Chinese American.”

    Hopefully this will not become a problem, especially as Chinese are rapidly intermarrying with whites and given that the Euro-Asian combination is quite attractive to the eye. Of course there is a certain amount of cultural pride among Chinese Americans individually as they see the home country rise. How could they not feel that way given the way China was mistreated in the past? But to the extent that they integrate and assimilate into American society — and drop that law suit against Harvard — I think everything will be fine.

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    • Replies: @Yan Shen
    Well you seem hopelessly sanguine about the future of race relations and quiet frankly misguided about where the root of the problem lies.

    I highly doubt most Chinese Americans concerned about the seeming rise of Sinophobia in this country or who were part of the Asian American groups that have been filing lawsuits against Harvard are really influenced that much by thoughts of China's so called century of humiliation. What this boils down to is reciprocity and fairness and really trying to shift the blame onto Chinese Americans misses the point.

    Various people have been joking now that America seems to be in the midst of a Cultural Revolution, which to most is obviously the fault of those left wing PC fanatics wreaking havoc upon the institutions and values of our country. But allow me to argue that the rot actually lies much deeper and permeates the entire ethos of this country. It's hardly just a matter of obnoxious Social Justice Jihadis.

    What this really boils down to is what people like Amy Chua have been pointing out for years now, partly tongue-in-cheek, but also with much seriousness, that the Western obsession with self-esteem can often be counterproductive and quite frankly has gotten out of control. So for instance, we typically hear about the Dunning-Kruger effect and how the less competent have a greater tendency to overestimate their own ability, like uh for instance nobodies who have the gall to somehow compare themselves to Nicolaus Copernicus. What's particularly interesting though is that East Asians generally speaking tend to be the one clear exception to that rule.

    http://www.apa.org/monitor/feb03/overestimate.aspx

    Regardless of how pervasive the phenomenon is, it is clear from Dunning's and others' work that many Americans, at least sometimes and under some conditions, have a tendency to inflate their worth. It is interesting, therefore, to see the phenomenon's mirror opposite in another culture. In research comparing North American and East Asian self-assessments, Heine of the University of British Columbia finds that East Asians tend to underestimate their abilities, with an aim toward improving the self and getting along with others.

    There are cultural, social and individual motives behind these tendencies, Heine and colleagues observe in a paper in the October 1999 Psychological Review (Vol. 106, No. 4). "As Western society becomes more individualistic, a successful life has come to be equated with having high self-esteem," Heine says. "Inflating one's sense of self creates positive emotions and feelings of self-efficacy, but the downside is that people don't really like self-enhancers very much."

    Conversely, East Asians' self-improving or self-critical stance helps them maintain their "face," or reputation, and as a result, their interpersonal network. But the cost is they don't feel as good about themselves, he says. Because people in these cultures have different motivations, they make very different choices, Heine adds. If Americans perceive they're not doing well at something, they'll look for something else to do instead. "If you're bad at volleyball, well fine, you won't play volleyball," as Heine puts it. East Asians, though, view a poor performance as an invitation to try harder.
     

    Really, this is in some sense old news, but in another sense an astounding empirical fact. As far as I'm aware of, East Asians are the only major racial/ethnic group that systematically underestimates their own abilities and engages in relentless self criticism!

    So I think this then is ultimately the root of contemporary American societal maladies. And this is hardly a left-wing problem. Take for instance various alt-right HBD types on this site. Everyone always just seems to be complaining endlessly about Chinese Americans or whoever else is doing well in this country, accusing them of cheating or gaming the system or the likes, often with scant or little empirical evidence of any kind, apart from vague personal anecdotes and despite clear evidence to the contrary. In fact one of the most curious empirical phenomenon has been the increasing convergence between Steve Sailer and organizations like FairTest in terms of attitudes towards standardized testing over the past 15-20 years!

    And let's not forget the entire thing with Japan bashing back in the day and now rampant Sinophobia. Since Chinese and Chinese Americans are unlikely to all of a sudden stop being successful at the sorts of quantitative STEM areas that they're known to be good at, and since Chinese Americans rarely agitate politically in the way that blacks, Hispanics, and whites do, surely the heart of the problem is much more the rotten ethos of contemporary black, Hispanic, and white Americans rather than anything that Chinese or East Asians have done in particular.

    I only hope that Christopher Wray's comments aren't the prelude to the eventual coming of the pogroms!

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  36. Anonymous[202] • Disclaimer says:
    @Steve Sailer
    I have a theory about India that's kind of like my Dirt Gap theory about American cities, which is that because India is shaped like an upside down pyramid, southern Indians live closer to the shore and thus are more exposed to the outside world, while, say, the 200 million residents of Uttar Pradesh on the Ganges live deep inland and thus miss out on exposure to outside ideas.

    That’s only the case for seaborne influences. British influence is stronger along the coast, but Islamic influence is stronger in the North because it came by land.

    Also I think the fact that Islam killed off the intellectuals in the North, and made their societies very conservative, is one reason for the North south difference. Kind of like what the Mongols did to Baghdad.

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  37. pyrrhus says:
    @Ali Choudhury
    Excellent column. At the end of the day there will be one winner of the 21st century, the authoritarian Chinese which will be a tremendous shame.

    Couldn’t read the column at Taki’s because of the obnoxious popup ads for a certain fraudulent service….

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  38. pyrrhus says:
    @countenance
    First off, has anyone noticed that Taki isn't taking comments?

    Now, for the meat of the matter:

    Much of the class hatred in America stems from the suspicions of the intelligentsia that plumbers and mechanics are using their voodoo cognitive ability of staring at 3-D physical objects and somehow understanding why they are broken to overcharge them for repairs. Thus it’s only fair, America’s white-collar managers assume, that they export factory jobs to lower-paid China so that they can afford to throw manufactured junk away when it breaks and buy new junk rather than have to subject themselves to the humiliation of admitting to educationally inferior American repairmen that they don’t understand what is wrong with their own gizmos.
     
    Beautiful.

    And the Indians tend to be more verbally agile than the Chinese and more adept at the kind of high-level abstract thinking required by modern computer science, law, and soft major academia. Thousands of years of Brahmin speculations didn’t do much for India’s prosperity, but somehow have prepared Indians to make fortunes in 21st-century America.
     
    Haven't you noticed that a lot of "American" social scientists that study things like urban issues, class issues, race issues and economic mobility are Indian immigrants? It starts with Chetty Chetty Bang Bang, but there are any number of others.

    First off, has anyone noticed that Taki isn’t taking comments?

    We’ve noticed…That, along with the popups makes it a no go site.

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    • Replies: @res

    We’ve noticed…That, along with the popups makes it a no go site.
     
    An ad blocker should handle the popups. And discussing the articles here handles the comments. I'm surprised we haven't seen more comments here from people who used to comment at Taki's on Steve's articles.
    , @songbird
    I think Takimag was put on some sort of list. SPLC or something like that. Maybe, it's the ads that caused the comments to be dropped. Pretty worrying sign.

    But I believe Ron Unz will hold fast, thankfully.
    , @MBlanc46
    It’s gone from being the first site I visited every day to a site I won’t visit even to read Steve Sailer’s article.
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  39. @grapesoda

    Thousands of years of Brahmin speculations didn’t do much for India’s prosperity...
     
    Um, it didn't?

    https://imgur.com/gallery/4hNsD

    Why do you think Christopher Columbus was trying to get to India? For trade obviously.

    Between this and last week's weird theory about how most Indians think the British instituted the caste system, Steve is clearly out of his depth when it comes to India. But that's OK. I wouldn't even try to take on as much as he does.

    “… last week’s weird theory about how most Indians think the British instituted the caste system…”

    No, he said that it was anthropologists who were saying that.

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  40. Stick says:

    So we should expect India will start digging holes to shit in as opposed to shitting anywhere and everywhere? The future is scary in its possibilities.

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    • LOL: Yan Shen
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  41. Anonymous[382] • Disclaimer says:

    That summary of the new Reich paper on India at Scroll.in is really well written!

    The writer seems to mostly be a Bollywood entertainment reporter. The New York Times should grab him as a science reporter. His 17-syllable last name would need to go, however. I recommend he change his name to Rohan Venka.

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  42. @Ali Choudhury
    Excellent column. At the end of the day there will be one winner of the 21st century, the authoritarian Chinese which will be a tremendous shame.

    ” At the end of the day there will be one winner of the 21st century, the authoritarian Chinese which will be a tremendous shame…”
    I always find hinduwadis interesting; like hindus could label apartheid system as ‘spiritual’. I’m not the one making the judgment; go ask Mr. Singh the ex-prime-mimister

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/dec/28/india.mainsection

    http://www.forumforhinduawakening.org/awakening/castsystem-classsystem

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  43. @Luke Lea
    Ali Choudhury writes "Excellent column. At the end of the day there will be one winner of the 21st century, the authoritarian Chinese which will be a tremendous shame."

    Not if all the advanced industrial democracies get together and leverage their combined industrial, commercial, technological, military, and especially financial power (control of international banking system) to keep China within civilized bounds. But that will require a new Democratic League.

    Fortunately China will always suffer from a serious soft-power deficit.

    That’s surprisingly true. Despite its size n resources, China’s influence in the Greater Sinosphere over the entertainment area has never matched Japan (anime, manga), Korea (variety shows, drama), or Taiwan n Hong Kong (pop music).

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  44. @Steve Sailer
    I have a theory about India that's kind of like my Dirt Gap theory about American cities, which is that because India is shaped like an upside down pyramid, southern Indians live closer to the shore and thus are more exposed to the outside world, while, say, the 200 million residents of Uttar Pradesh on the Ganges live deep inland and thus miss out on exposure to outside ideas.

    Perhaps the inland types got at least some exposure to outside ideas from invasions, most recently, the British, who got to the Punjab in the late 1840s.

    http://www.vam.ac.uk/content/articles/t/sikh-wars-and-annexation-of-the-panjab/

    http://kemu.edu.pk/history/

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  45. @snorlax
    Those numbers are preposterous and clearly based on PC bullsh*ttery.

    India higher than Britain in 1870?
    China higher than Britain in 1900?
    China's GDP share (not absolute GDP) grows massively between 1700 and 1820?
    Germany shrinks by half from 1913 to 1970?
    USA doubles between 1870 and 1900, but Britain unchanged?
    Japan and Italy larger than Britain in 1700?
    US (already population 270,000 and known for having the world's highest standard of living) negligible in 1700?

    Those numbers are preposterous “—I agree
    Such bar graph on GDP stretched back to 1000s of years has little meaning because tribes/countries popped up and faded away all the time. The arabs were originally small tribes in the Persian gulf area and emerged as a major civilization through islam and now mostly fucked up and in decline.
    The person who posted the graph did so to arouse nostalgia to ease the mental anguish

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  46. @snorlax
    Those numbers are preposterous and clearly based on PC bullsh*ttery.

    India higher than Britain in 1870?
    China higher than Britain in 1900?
    China's GDP share (not absolute GDP) grows massively between 1700 and 1820?
    Germany shrinks by half from 1913 to 1970?
    USA doubles between 1870 and 1900, but Britain unchanged?
    Japan and Italy larger than Britain in 1700?
    US (already population 270,000 and known for having the world's highest standard of living) negligible in 1700?

    The below linked article and the accompanying graph in The Atlantic (surprisingly) are more honest.

    Before the Industrial revolution, a country’s share of world GDP was roughly proportional to its share of the world’s population. There were no significant labor productivity differences in pre-industrial times. After 1800, the West’s share became disproportionately large relative to its population, thanks to the productivity gains of the Industrial revolution. Since about 1980, China’s (and to a lesser extent India’s) share of world GDP is climbing back up, as they industrialize.

    https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/06/the-economic-history-of-the-last-2-000-years-in-1-little-graph/258676/

    So, one way to read the graph, very broadly speaking, is that everything to the left of 1800 is an approximation of population distribution around the world and everything to the right of 1800 is a demonstration of productivity divergences around the world — the mastering of means of manufacturing, production and supply chains by steam, electricity, and ultimately software that concentrated, first in the West, and then spread to Japan, Russia, China, India, Brazil, and beyond.

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  47. Many of these graphs mention the late Angus Maddison, a well-respected economic historian. If you are interested in that sort of thing, his “Millennial Perspective” on world economic development, published circa 2000 for the OECD is a fascinating read.

    http://theunbrokenwindow.com/Development/MADDISON%20The%20World%20Economy–A%20Millennial.pdf

    Read More
    • Replies: @res
    Thanks. That link was broken for me (I think because of character conversion, it has a double dash). Let's try this one

    There are some interesting data files (I think from the book) at http://www.ggdc.net/MADDISON/oriindex.htm
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  48. rogue-one says:
    @Dieter Kief

    But there’s not much enthusiasm for China, either.

    In an age of postmodern postnationalism that worships diversity, China is old-fashioned. It’s homogeneous, nationalist, and modernist. China seems to have utilitarian 1950s values.
     

    That's even truer than your a tad too simplistic explanation for the rise of Nietzsche amongst Postmodernists (Foucault carrying on the flame of Nietzsche's dark arguments).

    My explanation for Nietzsche's overwhelming postmodern success is fairly straightfoward too, I have to admit: Nietzsche's work is the closest every thinker ever got to the pubertarian mindset of the unrestictable adventurous grandeur.

    To achieve this, he not only had to attack reason and power (be it worldy or otherworldy), but the modern world's foundation of those in reasonable exchange of arguments = the free discourse itself.

    For academic teachers, it is easier, to give in to their enthusiastic young scholar's Nietzschean attacks on the very foundations of the liberal academic (=the enlightened) world, than to openly resist them. (That's what now Jordan B. Peterson (for example) does). It wass about time, someone like him stood up against Nitzschean postmodernism. I wish him well!

    To be fair, Nietzsche would have nothing but contempt for post-modern academics like Foucault or Derrida or Judith Butler.

    These parasitic academics simply use the weaponry provided by Nietzsche to destroy the foundations of the western civilization. If it is not Nietzsche, they would use Marx or any other author. Just like Hitler just liked to invade, and would use any argument to justify it, these post-mods just want to destroy the west and will use any argument to do so. Nietzsche today, Marx tomorrow, Luther day after tomorrow.

    Mr. Peterson seems to have a lot of respect for Nietzsche though Peterson respects Christianity a lot more than Nietzsche ever did.

    I feel that true heirs to Nietzsche are geneticists who would, perhaps unwittingly in some decades, bring out a genetic caste based society that Nietzsche would admire.

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    • Replies: @Dieter Kief

    I feel that true heirs to Nietzsche are geneticists who would, perhaps unwittingly in some decades, bring out a genetic caste based society that Nietzsche would admire.
     
    Could well be. Such ideas are structurally very close to Nietzsche's superman-reveries, that' for sure.

    The CIA (!) once supported the early postmodernist movement, because the postmodernists actively fought against left wing totalitarianism in post war France, and strange as it might sound: I give them credit, that they managed to win this fight.

    The last of the terribly authoritarian figures left over in France today is Jean-Luc Mélenchon from the leftwing Socialists - and his influence is shrinking every day. Thank god, if you ask me. (He even has an intellectual supporter: Foucault disciple and gay-activist Didier Eribon... - you would not want to say a lot of bad things about him, except maybe: He is not the brightest lad that there is in France right now.

    Nietzsche is a refreshingly good writer at times. And that's a quality, of course. And Nietzsche has discovered that even the best arguments can be a cover up of pretty dark sentiments - and that is something, that every psychologist who is alive and kickin' should be very interested in.

    (There is a direct line from Moliére and Shakespeare - via Goethe - Schopenhauer and Nietzsche to Freud and Jung. - Peterson digs this (at least a lot of this stuff), and of course: That's the core of psychology: The human capacity (and drive even: That's Schopenhauer!) for/ to (self-)deception.

    And then there is something else in Peterson, that I love a lot about him - and I still don't know really, where that comes from: He knows how to fight (Pinker seems to shy away from that insight, and rather die in all his glorious and brilliant beauty, which he does incorporate, no doubt about that...and hopefully - not too much of envy on the side of yours truly either....).
    Is that the Christian core of Peterson : His alertness and his willingness to fight? Is he a part-scientist/ part modern knight?
    The idea, that it needs courage (and not only status...) to speak the truth, seems to have disappeared in the corridors of big media, big government and big science. And that makes the exceptions (Peterson, Paglia, Douglas & Charles Murray, Sam Harris, Jonathan Haidt even, here and there,...Steve Sailer, James Thompson, Heiner Rindermann, Anatoly Karlin, Thilo Sarrazin, so interesting!

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  49. @Luke Lea
    A very nice article, Steve. You really do know how to ''get up a topic," even if it is something you rarely write about. How do you do it?

    About Indians not good with their hands, what about surgeons? The best head and neck surgeon in the world, who operated on me when I had throat cancer at Sloan Kettering, was undoubtedly Hindu. True, he was assisted by a Muslim and a Jew. I told them to not get into a fight before I went under the anesthesia.

    P.S. And of course Jews make very good surgeons too. So this thing with the hands is more cultural than genetic, no? Though Chinese fingers are nimble, no doubt about that. How much of it is a male female thing?

    I think that childhood education in East Asia often involves delicate handwork tasks, e.g., origami in Japan, bead sorting in China, etc.

    Western, and particularly American, schools direct students to “keep their hands folded!” So unless the child grows up in a tradesman/craftsman household, of course he is going to be a manual incompetent.

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    • Replies: @peterike

    Western, and particularly American, schools direct students to “keep their hands folded!”

     

    I see you last visited a school sometime around 1935.
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  50. Escher says:
    @Stephen Paul Foster
    I've spent time in China and India. The feeling you get very quickly in China is that someone there is in charge, that everyone know this, and they behave themselves. If you cross that line, the fist will come down very hard. In India it's almost immediately obvious that nobody is in charge. India is a lot more entertaining, fun and colorful than China, but looking to the future; it's all China.

    China is meritocracy pretending to be communism: India is communism pretending to be democracy.

    India is communism pretending to be democracy.

    India is semi-controlled anarchy, period! People there talk big but are unable to back up their words with performance.

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  51. res says:
    @PiltdownMan
    Many of these graphs mention the late Angus Maddison, a well-respected economic historian. If you are interested in that sort of thing, his "Millennial Perspective" on world economic development, published circa 2000 for the OECD is a fascinating read.

    http://theunbrokenwindow.com/Development/MADDISON%20The%20World%20Economy--A%20Millennial.pdf

    Thanks. That link was broken for me (I think because of character conversion, it has a double dash). Let’s try this one

    There are some interesting data files (I think from the book) at http://www.ggdc.net/MADDISON/oriindex.htm

    Read More
    • Replies: @PiltdownMan
    Sorry for the trouble. Thank you for fixing the glitch.
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  52. Sorry, Steve. Taki’s gave a big FU to its readers by shutting down comments. I won’t be giving them page views anymore. I guess from now on I’ll have to be satisfied with the first couple graphs and what context I can glean from the comments here.

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    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
    Yes, and the snarky lecture by Taki's -- "don't bitch about the lack of comments but appreciate that the website is provided to you for free at all" -- didn't help.

    Bye, Taki's.

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  53. @anon
    The Chinese often tout their multi-millenia contiguous history as a single civilization, and the claim that this makes them the "oldest" such civilization. To what extent is this true or myth?

    Highly. There is a bit of a disconnect where the earliest parts (pre-2200 years old) did not cover the entire core of China, but that is it. The people and culture have an uninterrupted progression from then to modern times and the high culture was resiliant- the characters stayed the same from 500-1946 AD, although you could go back to 200 BC and have it be relatively similar. Like if you could read Beowulf without it having to be translated.

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    • Replies: @Peter Akuleyev
    The characters stayed the same over 2000 years but the language changed and semantics changed. A 19th century Chinese needed years of study and commentaries to understand a text in 7th century Classical Chinese and it is far worse now. It is not dissimilar to the situation of a modern Italian trying to read Latin.
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  54. Anon[425] • Disclaimer says:
    @Stephen Paul Foster
    I've spent time in China and India. The feeling you get very quickly in China is that someone there is in charge, that everyone know this, and they behave themselves. If you cross that line, the fist will come down very hard. In India it's almost immediately obvious that nobody is in charge. India is a lot more entertaining, fun and colorful than China, but looking to the future; it's all China.

    China is meritocracy pretending to be communism: India is communism pretending to be democracy.

    India is communism pretending to be democracy.

    But communism means order.

    Read More
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  55. Anon[425] • Disclaimer says:
    @Luke Lea
    Steve writes: "Much of the class hatred in America stems from the suspicions of the intelligentsia that plumbers and mechanics are using their voodoo cognitive ability of staring at 3-D physical objects and somehow understanding why they are broken to overcharge them for repairs. Thus it’s only fair, America’s white-collar managers assume, that they export factory jobs to lower-paid China so that they can afford to throw manufactured junk away when it breaks and buy new junk rather than have to subject themselves to the humiliation of admitting to educationally inferior American repairmen that they don’t understand what is wrong with their own gizmos."

    That sounds funny but I had a friend of a friend in Manhattan who literally did not know how to use a screwdriver. Granted, she was a she but I don't think she knew how to change a lightbulb either. Call the super. And then there is the old Jewish self-humor riddle: What does a Jew do when he gets a flat tire? Answer? Buys a new car.

    In Israel, how are the old Sabra values of physical self-reliance holding up among the third generation? Anybody know?

    And then there is the old Jewish self-humor riddle: What does a Jew do when he gets a flat tire? Answer? Buys a new car.

    So, all those Polack Jokes were projections?

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  56. Numinous says:
    @Luke Lea
    A very nice article, Steve. You really do know how to ''get up a topic," even if it is something you rarely write about. How do you do it?

    About Indians not good with their hands, what about surgeons? The best head and neck surgeon in the world, who operated on me when I had throat cancer at Sloan Kettering, was undoubtedly Hindu. True, he was assisted by a Muslim and a Jew. I told them to not get into a fight before I went under the anesthesia.

    P.S. And of course Jews make very good surgeons too. So this thing with the hands is more cultural than genetic, no? Though Chinese fingers are nimble, no doubt about that. How much of it is a male female thing?

    So this thing with the hands is more cultural than genetic, no?

    Yeah, I think that’s right. Steve jumps too quickly to genetic differences where cultural taboos can explain so much.

    It’s not the Chinese ability with handiwork that makes them a manufacturing hub, but the cheapness of their labor, and the acumen of their businessmen and politicians. I don’t see the Chinese elite flocking to turn screws or welding plates in a factory; it’s their peasants who desperately want to get out of their villages and be socially mobile. Chinese elites in the West pursue similar “gab-oriented” professions like Indians do.

    As for Indians, they still disdain manual labor, especially anything that feels “polluting”. But we do have homegrown industrial cities with homegrown engineers, many of Brahmin ancestry, who do their own repairs and handwork (though less than Americans, as cheap labor is more readily available.)

    And the people who migrate from India to the US are drawn from the elite (either in terms of wealth or education.) The US accepts prole immigrants only from Central America; a prole Indian would have no prayer of getting a visa from his local US consulate.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Not true.

    A Hong Kong tycoon who recently personally bought up most of the UK's natural gas supply network - untold billions of cash - started off his business life by making artificial flowers, and selling the same to the British.

    Countless other Hong Kong tycoons started off similarly, doing the grunt work in their own little workshop.

    The Chinese see no disgrace in labor.
    , @Halal Butcher of Lhasa
    "It’s not the Chinese ability with handiwork that makes them a manufacturing hub, but the cheapness of their labor,.."
    ...........
    You're making a blanket judgment. The best evidence is the numbers of vocational schools in both countries and how equipped are the wood and metal workshops in schools. My impression is Chinese school kids from all backgrounds are quite eager to handle machine tools such as lathes while the brighter hindu low caste kids would try to imitate the upper castes to do 'mental work'.
    .......
    Some examples: Teng Xiaoping,the post cultural revolution party secretary knew how to operate a lathe and Xi JinPing had raised pigs.
    Another example is the quality of geology students. Geologists in the old days must do field work in remote and harsh places. Doing geology for a bright kids some decades ago was a badge of patriotism and I could name a number of top Chinese officials of geology background. The prime example is Zhou En-Lai who is probably the most respected statesman in Chinese in the past 70 yrs. He was an undergrad geology student in germany
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  57. Mike1 says:

    India is almost incomprehensibly chaotic and poorly run. As a people they seem clueless about what India is like. I’ve talked to several Indians who claim that India is physically the same as the West. They seem to be genuinely unaware that a garbage fire outside a mansion with pigs rooting through it is not something you see in Beverly Hills.
    India has zero chance of replicating China. They have almost certainly reached the limits of selling their people with cognitive talent to the West. This is their only real industry. The people getting exported from India now are not smarter than Western native populations: their sole talent is being willing to work very long hours.
    The Indian banking system is clearly nearing collapse. Control fraud is a way of life in India and banking systems rely on some honesty in their workforce.

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    • Replies: @Autochthon
    All spot on. Indians' most salient trait is an utter lack of shame or self-awareness.
    , @Anon 2
    India's population explosion - India adds 15 million people to
    its population every year - means that India can continue exporting
    its middle class to the U.S. at the rate of 70,000 a year into the foreseeable
    future, until the U.S. upper and upper middle class consists mostly
    of market-dominant minorities like the Indians, Chinese, and the Jews,
    with everybody else reduced to prole status. Not a pleasant prospect
    to contemplate, so hopefully it's wrong.
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  58. Flip says:
    @countenance
    First off, has anyone noticed that Taki isn't taking comments?

    Now, for the meat of the matter:

    Much of the class hatred in America stems from the suspicions of the intelligentsia that plumbers and mechanics are using their voodoo cognitive ability of staring at 3-D physical objects and somehow understanding why they are broken to overcharge them for repairs. Thus it’s only fair, America’s white-collar managers assume, that they export factory jobs to lower-paid China so that they can afford to throw manufactured junk away when it breaks and buy new junk rather than have to subject themselves to the humiliation of admitting to educationally inferior American repairmen that they don’t understand what is wrong with their own gizmos.
     
    Beautiful.

    And the Indians tend to be more verbally agile than the Chinese and more adept at the kind of high-level abstract thinking required by modern computer science, law, and soft major academia. Thousands of years of Brahmin speculations didn’t do much for India’s prosperity, but somehow have prepared Indians to make fortunes in 21st-century America.
     
    Haven't you noticed that a lot of "American" social scientists that study things like urban issues, class issues, race issues and economic mobility are Indian immigrants? It starts with Chetty Chetty Bang Bang, but there are any number of others.

    I’ve run across an increasing number of Indian/Pakistani Big Law guys in NY and Chicago. They seem pretty capable.

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  59. Gary says:

    Have visited over 100 countries, including travelling extensively in India
    and China. India stands for I will Never Do It Again. Appalling poverty, blatant
    child abuse, smells, etc. with no one in charge. David Duke upon visiting
    India said it was the future of America, a bunch of impoverished mongrels living
    together and fighting each other.
    China was the consummate police state with shocking poverty, child abuse,
    smells (especially squat toilets), etc. When visiting a so-called model school in
    Shanghai, we saw school age children across the street doing heavy
    labor (pick and shovel). We asked why they weren’t school. The answer:
    the children will NOT legal. They did not have permission to live
    in Shanghai and were not allowed to attend school. No pity or
    concern expressed by school officials. Most private and public
    non-tourist buildings had little or no heat even in freezing winter temperatures.
    Only the computer room was heated in most places.

    In China the model home in Beijing we were shown was a freezing filthy
    rat hole with much of its space devoted to storing coal.

    All of our Chinese tour guides (government employees) were
    openly hostile to westerners and blatantly critical of European
    culture. We did not experience this contempt in any other
    of the 100+ countries we visited.

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    • Replies: @Mr.Mister
    Wow...when did you visit China? Something like this wouldn't surprise me in the 1990s, but today, you would not see this in Shanghai. Of course, poorer provinces in China, like Henan, are probably like this.
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  60. David says:

    You mean William Jones. No reason to display this comment.

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  61. Anonymous[817] • Disclaimer says:

    One minor quibble Steve.

    The migration, or invasion which brought IE languages to India was a later era Steppe invasion involving groups believed to be allied to the Andronovo Culture – ultimately deriving from the Corded Ware of Europe, rather than a direct migration from Yamanaya.
    A ‘back migration’ if you will.
    Corded Ware folks were around ’75% identical’ to Yamanaya. The remainder being composed of indigenous central European groups.

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  62. MG says:

    There are a few dubious claims in the article. There is no foolproof to tell a Brahmin and non-Brahmin apart based on physical appearance and skin color. This is a persistent error people in the West make. Certain sub-groups you can reasonably guess will likely be ‘lower caste’, but in general no.

    Also – the genetic makeup of ancient Indians and the Aryan invasion theory are far from settled. They are an active subject of inquiry.

    I must agree with this, however:

    “Another feature that makes our commentariat comfortable with India is that Indians don’t seem to be all that mechanically facile, perhaps especially not the priestly Brahmin caste, with whom Western intellectuals primarily interact.”

    Across all level, Indians are clumsy with their hands. But Indians have the gift of the gab. Mark my words: not a single Indian has made any fundamental mark in the ongoing crypto revolution, but you can be sure they’ll arrive just-in-time to take credit and offer investment advice.

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  63. Anonymous[817] • Disclaimer says:

    India, being an infinitely ramified patchwork of multiple competing endogenous clans resembles more the Middle and Near East, (the Sailed ‘Hairy Man Axis of Evil), than anywhere else.
    The result is, that due to severe selection pressures in the face of perennial shortage, these groups were and are in a perpetual state of economic warfare against one another – and this has honed a hyper clannish insider/outsider culture/instinct within the Indians, so that ‘pity’ for the outsider is non-existent, whilst the winner, quite literally, takes it all. Thus works the manner of Indian group selection.

    A further consequence of this all-powerful peculiarly Indian phenomenon, as it bears upon the reality of today’s Economist-whipped world of uncontrolled massive immigration, is the more-than-a-mere-suspicion fact of the Indian government doing its damndest to export a considerable quantum of its excess population – which it knows full well that it cannot possibly support – onto the dumb damn fool Economist dictated nations of the west. There maybe a ‘mere’ 5 million subcontinental Indians in the USA now, but you can *bet your boots* that the Indian diaspora will *massively* dwarf the Mexican influx of half a century ago in magnitude, and, very likely, Indians, sometime this century, will become *the* numerically dominant ethny of the USA. The same will likely go for the EU.

    Unlike the unseemly, unskilled and unwanted rabble from Africa we now see plaguing Europe, the Indian flood will be *very very* more sophisticated than that. You see, the bitter group selection/clan battle for survival in India has engendered a cunning and instinct for bribery and trickery – and for gaming and playing systems – which is simply beyond belief to naive white bread blue-eyed innocents.
    They will eat you all up for breakfast.

    As for those big, fat, pompous be-suited fools of Economist types who are foisting this scenario upon the west, why those skinny little humble guys will (metaphorically) knife your big fat white-shirted belly overhanging your trousers, and take everything you’ve got.

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    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
    The Mexican influx of "half a century ago"? Mexicans are still flooding into the USA every day, both legally and illegally -- far, far more than Indians settling in the USA.

    Indians do present a serious danger to us, though, because of the amoral cut-throat way in which they tend to operate, as you point out.

    Indians will never be the biggest racial group in the former constituent parts of the USA -- and they, like all non-Mexicans, won't be particularly welcome or safe in the independent (seceded) Mexican-majority California that is coming.

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  64. Anonymous[817] • Disclaimer says:
    @Luke Lea
    Ali Choudhury writes "Excellent column. At the end of the day there will be one winner of the 21st century, the authoritarian Chinese which will be a tremendous shame."

    Not if all the advanced industrial democracies get together and leverage their combined industrial, commercial, technological, military, and especially financial power (control of international banking system) to keep China within civilized bounds. But that will require a new Democratic League.

    Fortunately China will always suffer from a serious soft-power deficit.

    I’d rather be governed by China than be governed by the EU or the USA.

    Like China, the EU is a an undemocratic dictatorship.
    But there the resemblance ends. The Chinese leadership runs China for the good of the Chinese people.
    The EU Commission, on the other hand seems to be run purely for the benefit of every third worlder who manages to bumrush his way in.

    As I said, China is run by the Chinese for the Chinese.
    By contrast white American men are – by government fiat – legislated third class citizens in terms of racial/sexual discrimination in employment, education, government spending etc.

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    • Replies: @MBlanc46
    I don’t believe that the West is being run for every Third Worlder who turns up. Sure there are professional Do Gooders and Bleeding Hearts who go into paroxysms of joy at the thought of giving their homes and hearths and daughters to the wonderful, vibrant People of Color. But the principal beneficiaries of our social policies are the employers for whom Legacy Westerners have become too expensive and who wish to replace them with cheaper Third Worlders.
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  65. I’ve seen this asked a few times but never answered: does anyone know why Taki closed the comments? I assume that there had to be a legal reason?

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  66. Indian companies produce a growing share of the market for cheap generic drugs, which implies some manual competence in that industry. What do those companies look like, demographically?

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  67. Yan Shen says:
    @Luke Lea
    Ya Shen writes: "Now I don’t know what a whole of society response entails, but quite frankly that kind of tone worries me as a Chinese American."

    Hopefully this will not become a problem, especially as Chinese are rapidly intermarrying with whites and given that the Euro-Asian combination is quite attractive to the eye. Of course there is a certain amount of cultural pride among Chinese Americans individually as they see the home country rise. How could they not feel that way given the way China was mistreated in the past? But to the extent that they integrate and assimilate into American society -- and drop that law suit against Harvard -- I think everything will be fine.

    Well you seem hopelessly sanguine about the future of race relations and quiet frankly misguided about where the root of the problem lies.

    I highly doubt most Chinese Americans concerned about the seeming rise of Sinophobia in this country or who were part of the Asian American groups that have been filing lawsuits against Harvard are really influenced that much by thoughts of China’s so called century of humiliation. What this boils down to is reciprocity and fairness and really trying to shift the blame onto Chinese Americans misses the point.

    Various people have been joking now that America seems to be in the midst of a Cultural Revolution, which to most is obviously the fault of those left wing PC fanatics wreaking havoc upon the institutions and values of our country. But allow me to argue that the rot actually lies much deeper and permeates the entire ethos of this country. It’s hardly just a matter of obnoxious Social Justice Jihadis.

    What this really boils down to is what people like Amy Chua have been pointing out for years now, partly tongue-in-cheek, but also with much seriousness, that the Western obsession with self-esteem can often be counterproductive and quite frankly has gotten out of control. So for instance, we typically hear about the Dunning-Kruger effect and how the less competent have a greater tendency to overestimate their own ability, like uh for instance nobodies who have the gall to somehow compare themselves to Nicolaus Copernicus. What’s particularly interesting though is that East Asians generally speaking tend to be the one clear exception to that rule.

    http://www.apa.org/monitor/feb03/overestimate.aspx

    Regardless of how pervasive the phenomenon is, it is clear from Dunning’s and others’ work that many Americans, at least sometimes and under some conditions, have a tendency to inflate their worth. It is interesting, therefore, to see the phenomenon’s mirror opposite in another culture. In research comparing North American and East Asian self-assessments, Heine of the University of British Columbia finds that East Asians tend to underestimate their abilities, with an aim toward improving the self and getting along with others.

    There are cultural, social and individual motives behind these tendencies, Heine and colleagues observe in a paper in the October 1999 Psychological Review (Vol. 106, No. 4). “As Western society becomes more individualistic, a successful life has come to be equated with having high self-esteem,” Heine says. “Inflating one’s sense of self creates positive emotions and feelings of self-efficacy, but the downside is that people don’t really like self-enhancers very much.”

    Conversely, East Asians’ self-improving or self-critical stance helps them maintain their “face,” or reputation, and as a result, their interpersonal network. But the cost is they don’t feel as good about themselves, he says. Because people in these cultures have different motivations, they make very different choices, Heine adds. If Americans perceive they’re not doing well at something, they’ll look for something else to do instead. “If you’re bad at volleyball, well fine, you won’t play volleyball,” as Heine puts it. East Asians, though, view a poor performance as an invitation to try harder.

    Really, this is in some sense old news, but in another sense an astounding empirical fact. As far as I’m aware of, East Asians are the only major racial/ethnic group that systematically underestimates their own abilities and engages in relentless self criticism!

    So I think this then is ultimately the root of contemporary American societal maladies. And this is hardly a left-wing problem. Take for instance various alt-right HBD types on this site. Everyone always just seems to be complaining endlessly about Chinese Americans or whoever else is doing well in this country, accusing them of cheating or gaming the system or the likes, often with scant or little empirical evidence of any kind, apart from vague personal anecdotes and despite clear evidence to the contrary. In fact one of the most curious empirical phenomenon has been the increasing convergence between Steve Sailer and organizations like FairTest in terms of attitudes towards standardized testing over the past 15-20 years!

    And let’s not forget the entire thing with Japan bashing back in the day and now rampant Sinophobia. Since Chinese and Chinese Americans are unlikely to all of a sudden stop being successful at the sorts of quantitative STEM areas that they’re known to be good at, and since Chinese Americans rarely agitate politically in the way that blacks, Hispanics, and whites do, surely the heart of the problem is much more the rotten ethos of contemporary black, Hispanic, and white Americans rather than anything that Chinese or East Asians have done in particular.

    I only hope that Christopher Wray’s comments aren’t the prelude to the eventual coming of the pogroms!

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    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    Don't worry, when they come to pogrom us, you can escalate to your ultimate weapon:

    harsh language
    , @Luke Lea
    Yan Shen writes: "What this boils down to is reciprocity and fairness and really trying to shift the blame onto Chinese Americans misses the point."

    In the case of Harvard College, a liberal arts school from which tomorrow's elites have traditionally been drawn, "reciprocity and fairness" don't get at the cultural realities, which are also partly genetic. If you don't see this I won't try to argue it.

    , @Len

    In fact one of the most curious empirical phenomenon has been the increasing convergence between Steve Sailer and organizations like FairTest in terms of attitudes towards standardized testing over the past 15-20 years!
     
    Huh. From Wiki:

    FairTest was founded in 1985 by leaders of civil rights and education groups to advance their view that the misuse, overuse and flaws of standardized testing practices may be detrimental to academic achievement and equal opportunity.
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FairTest

    Not sure if I see the convergence between Sailer and FairTest. In fact, such an assertion seems rather silly.

    , @RadicalCenter
    No reason to think that the Mexicans will target the Chinese any more than they will target the rest of us when they finally, conclusively take over California and Texas.
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  68. Anonymous[817] • Disclaimer says:
    @Steve Sailer
    I have a theory about India that's kind of like my Dirt Gap theory about American cities, which is that because India is shaped like an upside down pyramid, southern Indians live closer to the shore and thus are more exposed to the outside world, while, say, the 200 million residents of Uttar Pradesh on the Ganges live deep inland and thus miss out on exposure to outside ideas.

    More basic to that is the fact the south is Dravidian speaking and the north Aryan speaking.
    Hence, likely there are different genetic strains operating.

    Not so long ago north Indians used to generally look down upon south Indians as ‘impoverished duplicitous weaklings’.

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  69. Anonymous[817] • Disclaimer says:
    @wren
    I don't know about mainland China, but in other Asian countries I have been in one's blood type seems to come up way more than in the west.

    I always figured that it was one way for fairly homogenous folks to find some diversity.

    With Xinjiang and Tibet there is diversity in China though.

    If all these articles about China's social credit score, ubiquitous face and iris scanning cameras, dna databases, and full on top to bottom surveillance of people's online and offline lives are accurate, the state will not be permitting too much genuine diversity moving forward.

    I don't know if the state is more afraid of the people or the people are more afraid of the state or I am just projecting and afraid of what is already here in the west and surely coming in the future, but it is all depressing.

    Someone once told me a story about visiting India and stepping out of the airport and being just clobbered by all the sights and sounds and especially smells. After watching a lady walk down the street crapping out her sari as she went, he turned around and went back in the airport and got a flight home.

    Later I learned that that is a medical condition often caused by giving birth, and very easily treatable, but not in India for poor lower caste women.

    That story stuck with me though as representing India, but also maybe because I am reminded of it every time I see drugged out homeless zombies shuffling around my own neighborhood.

    The future is not feeling so great right now to me anywhere.

    Never been to India, but since I was old enough to realise such things, perhaps 7 years old or younger, the reportage of Indian poverty, as shown on TV, has haunted me.

    A dark, dark conscious or subconscious fear of mine has always been that the UK would end up ‘as poor as India’ due to political/economic mismanagement.

    The Economist seems to be doing a bang-up job on that score.

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  70. Flip says:
    @Anonym
    China has an enormous advantage over India: relative homogeneity. In China there is no significant difference in racial appearance between the rich and the poor. They come from the same people. In India, you can see a colour line dividing classes every inch of the way. Sure these lines aren’t cut and dry like black and white, and there are overlaps, but the trends are easy to follow for anyone willing to observe. The fact that the Chinese don’t have 4000 year old caste hatreds gives them the advantage over India.

    That and the IQ advantage.

    The US ruling class used to be the same ethnicity as the rest of the population. That is much less true now.

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    • Replies: @Anonym
    The US ruling class used to be the same ethnicity as the rest of the population. That is much less true now.

    I am not sure exactly how your comment relates to mine. India's IQ of 82 vs China's of 100 (or thereabouts) is massive and to me, the primary reason why China has the advantage there. "The Gap" is higher there than the white/black averages in the USA. Of course that is going to have a major impact on relative ability of the countries.

    To your point though, China was ruled for hundreds of years in recent memory, e.g. 1644 to 1912 by the Manchu people. That is an ethnic group of only 10 million people. I know very little about the Manchu other than that they ruled China for a long time. Maybe someone else can chip in. I thought "How the hell can one ethnic group rule so many people!?" when I was much younger. Little did I know...

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qing_dynasty
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchu_people
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  71. Buddwing says:

    Questions that I never see discussed:

    What will the Indian community in the US look like in coming years? Will it be post-caste, or will caste be preserved? What do Indian leaders in the US (politicians, celebrities, high-tech engineers) think should be imported from their culture and what ought to be transcended? What is the caste makeup of Indian immigrants to the US?

    I find it hard to imagine journalists actually asking these questions, perhaps because we are convinced by facile dismissals of the idea that caste has any importance in the US.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Basically anyone and everyone who can afford a plane ticket.

    That's nigh on 1.2 billion people, for you information.

    *THAT'S* the 'future' The Economist has in store for you.
    , @Bernardo Pizzaro Cortez Del Castro
    Excellent question...it seems they still stick with their own caste here in America.
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  72. Sean says:

    https://www.opendemocracy.net/democraciaabierta/gregory-clark-manuel-nunes-ramires-serrano/we-are-all-equal-but-in-very-long-run

    In my forthcoming book, From who the bell curve tolls, I am going to explore why social mobility is so resistant to change. And it will contain a controversial claim: because genetics have a surprising importance in determining a person´s social position, whatever the social environment may be. As part of the analysis, we have started going through some data coming in from Russia which suggest that even in societies that have been transformed by revolution, the rate of social mobility does not change that much. People just adapt. Some turned out to be very good Communists, others turned out to be not that good. The interesting puzzle is why is it so difficult to change the rate of social mobility.

    http://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/2138866/china-needs-more-water-so-its-building-rain-making-network-three

    China needs more water. So it’s building a rain-making network three times the size of Spain
    Vast system of chambers on Tibetan plateau could send enough particles into the atmosphere to allow extensive clouds to form. [...] The system, which involves an enormous network of fuel-burning chambers installed high up on the Tibetan mountains, could increase rainfall in the region by up to 10 billion cubic metres a year – about 7 per cent of China’s total water consumption – according to researchers involved in the project. Tens of thousands of chambers will be built at selected locations across the Tibetan plateau to produce rainfall over a total area of about 1.6 million square kilometres (620,000 square miles), or three times the size of Spain. It will be the world’s biggest such project. The chambers burn solid fuel to produce silver iodide, a cloud-seeding agent with a crystalline structure much like ice

    India is also pressing ahead with its own advanced projects.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_defecation#India

    India’s prime minister Modi launches Swachh Bharat Mission in 2014
    In an attempt to stop city residents from urinating and defecating in public, a city council in western India is planning to pay residents to use public toilets. In 2015, the Ahmedabad Municipal Corporation announced it will give residents one rupee a visit in a bid to draw them into its 300 public toilets and away from open areas and public walls, which often reek of urine.[48]
    In India, the State of Rajasthan became the first state in the country to make a “functional toilet” mandatory in the house of a contestant for contesting elections to Panchayati Raj institutions. The post of village head is called “sarpanch” in Rajasthan, India. A person cannot contest for the post of sarpanch unless they have a functional toilet at their residence.[49]
    The Government of India has taken up an initiative called Swachh Bharat Mission wherein a large scale drive has been initiated to construct toilets on mass level. Government has increased subsidy on toilet construction to INR 12,000.[50] A number of industries in India are manufacturing affordable toilet rooms using pre-fabrication techniques to meet high demand of toilets created after this new legislation.

    Just as the Indian troops panicked when faced with the Japs in WW2, the Chinese made very short work of the army of the world’s largest democracy when they clashed, even though China was economically underdeveloped compared to India at the time. All India has is wayward people and those are increasingly redundant in a modern economies.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    What a waste of silver, silver that we will never get back.

    So basically, by dominating world trade and thus accumulating the world's biggest cash pile, the Chinese will basically stop anyone from possessing any silver.

    Curiously, a similar complaint by the British sparked off the 'Opium Wars'.
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  73. Yan Shen says:
    @Hapalong Cassidy
    China has one fundamental weakness which will keep it from ruling the future, and that is the far right end of the bell curve. The Chinese may have a higher IQ than Europeans on average (and much higher than Indians), but they have far less variation at the very top. Amd it is this very top from which almost all innovation arises. Even the Brahmin-caste Indians are more likely to produce intellectual outliers at the top end than the Chinese are. Or at least based on what I’ve observed from the performance of the Hindu community in US compared to the Chinese.

    Based on the huge degree of Chinese American over-representation at the tail end on things such as the USAMO/IMO, this seems to not be well supported.

    For instance, in my article on the math/verbal split, I pointed out that eyeballing last names seemed to indicate that something like 65% of 2016 USAMO qualifiers were East Asian. The vast majority of those were Chinese and Korean, with very few Japanese, and if I had to venture a guess I would say that Chinese outnumbered Koreans by something like 5-6 to 1 among the USAMO qualifiers I looked at, despite the overall Chinese American population outnumbering the Korean American population by only something like 2.6 to 1. (Obviously this isn’t necessarily the ratio of the two groups among recent high school cohorts, but still.)

    https://www.imo-official.org/country_individual_r.aspx?code=USA

    Similarly for the US IMO teams in recent years, Chinese Americans are hugely over-represented, although obviously only 6 people qualify for the team each year. For instance out of the 6 man team, Chinese Americans have made up 4, 3, 2, 4, and 4 of the competitors in the past 5 years!

    In fact none of this should be particularly surprising. Chinese Americans are disproportionately over-represented in America’s top schools, top science labs around the country, and at the top companies in Silicon Valley, especially in technical/quantitatively oriented roles. And as I pointed out in my article, Chinese science has made significant increases post-2000, especially in quantitative areas.

    However, as has been clear to those most carefully following the rise of China in S&T, the country exhibits a clear preference for quantitative fields, in particular physics, chemistry, engineering, mathematics, and computer science. As noted by Australian academic Simon Marginson, “in 2000 China authored just 0.6 percent of chemistry papers ranked in the global top one percent on citation rate in the Web of Science. Only 12 years later, in 2012, China published 16.3% of the leading one percent of papers, half as many as the US- an astonishing rate of improvement. There were similar patterns in engineering, physics and computing- where China publishes more top one percent papers than the US- and mathematics (NSF, 2014.) China, Taiwan, Korea, Japan, and to some degree Singapore, have concentrated research development in the physical sciences and related applied fields like engineering, computing and materials.

    If you haven’t done so, I suggest giving my article a read. In particular one of the things it argues against is Steve’s casual assertion here that Indians excel relative to Chinese in computer science. The vast body of university rankings evidence indicates that this is simply not true. Computer science is one of China’s strong academic fields of specialization!

    http://www.unz.com/article/iq-or-the-mathverbal-split/

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  74. Anonymous[392] • Disclaimer says:

    This is more proof that America will end up like India with an elite brahmin class and a diverse mix below that are filled with servents.

    This is how all white societies end up.

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  75. China: Corruption

    India: Corruption

    American Empire: Treasonous Corruption

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  76. Anonymous[817] • Disclaimer says:
    @rogue-one
    It's kind of strange.

    Russia is a declining power, America is the current hegemony, China is a rising power. In a more rational world, Russia & America would be allies trying to contain the rise of China.

    But instead, American trade and foreign policies are designed to help China & hurt Russia.

    After the Gorbachev/Yeltsin years in which The Economist run west grossly over-played its free hand in Russia, and gloried in grinding the faces of Russians into the shit, whilst looting and raping their Motherland, Russia will *never ever* trust America or the West again.

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  77. @Yan Shen
    Well you seem hopelessly sanguine about the future of race relations and quiet frankly misguided about where the root of the problem lies.

    I highly doubt most Chinese Americans concerned about the seeming rise of Sinophobia in this country or who were part of the Asian American groups that have been filing lawsuits against Harvard are really influenced that much by thoughts of China's so called century of humiliation. What this boils down to is reciprocity and fairness and really trying to shift the blame onto Chinese Americans misses the point.

    Various people have been joking now that America seems to be in the midst of a Cultural Revolution, which to most is obviously the fault of those left wing PC fanatics wreaking havoc upon the institutions and values of our country. But allow me to argue that the rot actually lies much deeper and permeates the entire ethos of this country. It's hardly just a matter of obnoxious Social Justice Jihadis.

    What this really boils down to is what people like Amy Chua have been pointing out for years now, partly tongue-in-cheek, but also with much seriousness, that the Western obsession with self-esteem can often be counterproductive and quite frankly has gotten out of control. So for instance, we typically hear about the Dunning-Kruger effect and how the less competent have a greater tendency to overestimate their own ability, like uh for instance nobodies who have the gall to somehow compare themselves to Nicolaus Copernicus. What's particularly interesting though is that East Asians generally speaking tend to be the one clear exception to that rule.

    http://www.apa.org/monitor/feb03/overestimate.aspx

    Regardless of how pervasive the phenomenon is, it is clear from Dunning's and others' work that many Americans, at least sometimes and under some conditions, have a tendency to inflate their worth. It is interesting, therefore, to see the phenomenon's mirror opposite in another culture. In research comparing North American and East Asian self-assessments, Heine of the University of British Columbia finds that East Asians tend to underestimate their abilities, with an aim toward improving the self and getting along with others.

    There are cultural, social and individual motives behind these tendencies, Heine and colleagues observe in a paper in the October 1999 Psychological Review (Vol. 106, No. 4). "As Western society becomes more individualistic, a successful life has come to be equated with having high self-esteem," Heine says. "Inflating one's sense of self creates positive emotions and feelings of self-efficacy, but the downside is that people don't really like self-enhancers very much."

    Conversely, East Asians' self-improving or self-critical stance helps them maintain their "face," or reputation, and as a result, their interpersonal network. But the cost is they don't feel as good about themselves, he says. Because people in these cultures have different motivations, they make very different choices, Heine adds. If Americans perceive they're not doing well at something, they'll look for something else to do instead. "If you're bad at volleyball, well fine, you won't play volleyball," as Heine puts it. East Asians, though, view a poor performance as an invitation to try harder.
     

    Really, this is in some sense old news, but in another sense an astounding empirical fact. As far as I'm aware of, East Asians are the only major racial/ethnic group that systematically underestimates their own abilities and engages in relentless self criticism!

    So I think this then is ultimately the root of contemporary American societal maladies. And this is hardly a left-wing problem. Take for instance various alt-right HBD types on this site. Everyone always just seems to be complaining endlessly about Chinese Americans or whoever else is doing well in this country, accusing them of cheating or gaming the system or the likes, often with scant or little empirical evidence of any kind, apart from vague personal anecdotes and despite clear evidence to the contrary. In fact one of the most curious empirical phenomenon has been the increasing convergence between Steve Sailer and organizations like FairTest in terms of attitudes towards standardized testing over the past 15-20 years!

    And let's not forget the entire thing with Japan bashing back in the day and now rampant Sinophobia. Since Chinese and Chinese Americans are unlikely to all of a sudden stop being successful at the sorts of quantitative STEM areas that they're known to be good at, and since Chinese Americans rarely agitate politically in the way that blacks, Hispanics, and whites do, surely the heart of the problem is much more the rotten ethos of contemporary black, Hispanic, and white Americans rather than anything that Chinese or East Asians have done in particular.

    I only hope that Christopher Wray's comments aren't the prelude to the eventual coming of the pogroms!

    Don’t worry, when they come to pogrom us, you can escalate to your ultimate weapon:

    harsh language

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  78. Anonymous[817] • Disclaimer says:
    @Numinous

    So this thing with the hands is more cultural than genetic, no?
     
    Yeah, I think that's right. Steve jumps too quickly to genetic differences where cultural taboos can explain so much.

    It's not the Chinese ability with handiwork that makes them a manufacturing hub, but the cheapness of their labor, and the acumen of their businessmen and politicians. I don't see the Chinese elite flocking to turn screws or welding plates in a factory; it's their peasants who desperately want to get out of their villages and be socially mobile. Chinese elites in the West pursue similar "gab-oriented" professions like Indians do.

    As for Indians, they still disdain manual labor, especially anything that feels "polluting". But we do have homegrown industrial cities with homegrown engineers, many of Brahmin ancestry, who do their own repairs and handwork (though less than Americans, as cheap labor is more readily available.)

    And the people who migrate from India to the US are drawn from the elite (either in terms of wealth or education.) The US accepts prole immigrants only from Central America; a prole Indian would have no prayer of getting a visa from his local US consulate.

    Not true.

    A Hong Kong tycoon who recently personally bought up most of the UK’s natural gas supply network – untold billions of cash – started off his business life by making artificial flowers, and selling the same to the British.

    Countless other Hong Kong tycoons started off similarly, doing the grunt work in their own little workshop.

    The Chinese see no disgrace in labor.

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    • Replies: @MG
    The Chinese may have a higher opinion of labor than Indians, but the Chinese aren’t exactly known for quality workmanship. High quality mechanical work has been the preserve of the white Western nations and the Japanese.
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  79. Anonymous[817] • Disclaimer says:
    @Sean

    https://www.opendemocracy.net/democraciaabierta/gregory-clark-manuel-nunes-ramires-serrano/we-are-all-equal-but-in-very-long-run

    In my forthcoming book, From who the bell curve tolls, I am going to explore why social mobility is so resistant to change. And it will contain a controversial claim: because genetics have a surprising importance in determining a person´s social position, whatever the social environment may be. As part of the analysis, we have started going through some data coming in from Russia which suggest that even in societies that have been transformed by revolution, the rate of social mobility does not change that much. People just adapt. Some turned out to be very good Communists, others turned out to be not that good. The interesting puzzle is why is it so difficult to change the rate of social mobility.
     


    http://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/2138866/china-needs-more-water-so-its-building-rain-making-network-three

    China needs more water. So it's building a rain-making network three times the size of Spain
    Vast system of chambers on Tibetan plateau could send enough particles into the atmosphere to allow extensive clouds to form. [...] The system, which involves an enormous network of fuel-burning chambers installed high up on the Tibetan mountains, could increase rainfall in the region by up to 10 billion cubic metres a year – about 7 per cent of China’s total water consumption – according to researchers involved in the project. Tens of thousands of chambers will be built at selected locations across the Tibetan plateau to produce rainfall over a total area of about 1.6 million square kilometres (620,000 square miles), or three times the size of Spain. It will be the world’s biggest such project. The chambers burn solid fuel to produce silver iodide, a cloud-seeding agent with a crystalline structure much like ice
     

    India is also pressing ahead with its own advanced projects.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_defecation#India

    India's prime minister Modi launches Swachh Bharat Mission in 2014
    In an attempt to stop city residents from urinating and defecating in public, a city council in western India is planning to pay residents to use public toilets. In 2015, the Ahmedabad Municipal Corporation announced it will give residents one rupee a visit in a bid to draw them into its 300 public toilets and away from open areas and public walls, which often reek of urine.[48]
    In India, the State of Rajasthan became the first state in the country to make a "functional toilet" mandatory in the house of a contestant for contesting elections to Panchayati Raj institutions. The post of village head is called "sarpanch" in Rajasthan, India. A person cannot contest for the post of sarpanch unless they have a functional toilet at their residence.[49]
    The Government of India has taken up an initiative called Swachh Bharat Mission wherein a large scale drive has been initiated to construct toilets on mass level. Government has increased subsidy on toilet construction to INR 12,000.[50] A number of industries in India are manufacturing affordable toilet rooms using pre-fabrication techniques to meet high demand of toilets created after this new legislation.
     

    Just as the Indian troops panicked when faced with the Japs in WW2, the Chinese made very short work of the army of the world's largest democracy when they clashed, even though China was economically underdeveloped compared to India at the time. All India has is wayward people and those are increasingly redundant in a modern economies.

    What a waste of silver, silver that we will never get back.

    So basically, by dominating world trade and thus accumulating the world’s biggest cash pile, the Chinese will basically stop anyone from possessing any silver.

    Curiously, a similar complaint by the British sparked off the ‘Opium Wars’.

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    • Replies: @Sean
    Tell that to Nelson Bunker Hunt who got a lock on the world's silver, or so he thought (the US government altered the rules). Trump's signature move throughout his career was to bilk his workers, contractors, and creditors by declining to pay them all of what they were owed. He has discussed a strategy of doing something similar, or threatening to, in relation to the US indebtedness to China.


    Anyway, getting that stuff to burn on the mountains of the Tibetan plateau (very little oxygen) requires highly advanced technology.

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  80. Anonymous[817] • Disclaimer says:
    @Buddwing
    Questions that I never see discussed:

    What will the Indian community in the US look like in coming years? Will it be post-caste, or will caste be preserved? What do Indian leaders in the US (politicians, celebrities, high-tech engineers) think should be imported from their culture and what ought to be transcended? What is the caste makeup of Indian immigrants to the US?

    I find it hard to imagine journalists actually asking these questions, perhaps because we are convinced by facile dismissals of the idea that caste has any importance in the US.

    Basically anyone and everyone who can afford a plane ticket.

    That’s nigh on 1.2 billion people, for you information.

    *THAT’S* the ‘future’ The Economist has in store for you.

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  81. DWright says:

    And then there is the old Jewish self-humor riddle: What does a Jew do when he gets a flat tire? Answer? Buys a new car.

    So, all those Polack Jokes were projections?

    More than likely if you want something fixed ask a Polish guy.

    As far as everyone asking about Taki removing comments, most knew someday it would come. Since no decent explanation was given, I conjecture this:Mandolyna Theodoracopulos
    Taki’s Ivanka.

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  82. anon[213] • Disclaimer says:
    @Yan Shen

    Granted, there’s little hostile hysteria over China the way the Establishment is currently freaking out over the modest challenge posed by Russia, with only one-ninth of China’s population. But there’s not much enthusiasm for China, either.
     
    Well didn't uh some guy named Donald Trump just decide to impose $50 billion worth of tariffs on over 1,300 Chinese exports?

    http://money.cnn.com/2018/04/03/news/economy/us-tariffs-china/index.html

    Also, I seem to remember FBI director Christopher Wray recently freaking out over the Chinese as well.

    https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2018/02/15/fbi-director-testifies-chinese-students-and-intelligence-threats


    So one of the things we’re trying to do is view the China threat as not just a whole-of-government threat but a whole-of-society threat on their end, and I think it’s going to take a whole-of-society response by us.

     

    Now I don't know what a whole of society response entails, but quite frankly that kind of tone worries me as a Chinese American. And let's not forget Congress basically pressuring AT&T, Verizon, and Best Buy into dropping Huawei phones as well. I see clear signs of Sinophobia being on the rise in this country and quite frankly it worries me.

    For example, Chinese higher education isn’t yet competitive on the world stage, but China appears to be doing a decent job of educating the masses in the basics.
     
    Not quite. Yes, Chinese universities are still in a relatively nascent state of ascent. But, as I pointed out in my article on the math/verbal split, in certain quantitative areas Chinese universities are already near or at the fore.

    http://www.unz.com/article/iq-or-the-mathverbal-split/


    Based on the number of papers in the top 10% of citations, East Asian universities clearly excel at mathematics and computer science and physical sciences and engineering relative to the other three categories. For the time period of 2012-2015 and ranked by total number of top 10% papers based on citation rate, East Asia had 5 of the top 10 universities in physical sciences and engineering and 8 out of the top 10 universities in mathematics and computer science.

    By contrast when looking at total top 10% papers in the field of biomedical and health sciences, the highest ranked East Asian university was Shanghai Jiao Tong at 48th. For life and earth sciences, the highest ranked East Asian university was Zhejiang at 20th. And in social sciences and humanities, the top rated East Asian university was National University of Singapore at a fairly low 80th place.
     

    US News Global for instance, also ranks Tsinghua as the #1 computer science and #1 engineering school worldwide as well. In the same manner that notions of aggregate IQ tend to be somewhat misleading when it comes to understanding East Asian academic/career orientations, aggregate university performance across all disciplines leads to the same skewed picture...

    …quite frankly that kind of tone worries me as a Chinese American.

    There is no such thing as a “Chinese-American”. You are either Chinese or you are American. As Woodrow Wilson said: any man who considers himself a member of a national group has not yet become an American. If you are an American, drop the Chinese name and adopt an American name like all those who came before you — generations ago German and Nordic Americans anglicized their first and last name to declare loyalty to this country, today’s ungrateful immigrants need to do the same.

    The Chinese have a bad habit of hanging on to their culture and language everywhere they go instead of assimilating, that’s why they are hated throughout Southeast Asia, just like the Jews who refused to assimilate and were hated throughout the western world, and who are now encouraging this toxic attitude in all the newcomers by promoting diversity through their stranglehold of the media and academia. Their goal is to turn America into the Disunited States of America, so they are not the only out group. Do not fall for their multiculturalism claptrap. Assimilate or move the hell back to China.

    Before you call me a white nationalist racist, I’m actually of Asian descent, and I’m sick and tired of all the newly arrived Chinese taking over this country by arriving in large numbers, then insisting on speaking loudly in their language wherever they go. The US needs to cut off all immigration from China and India ASAP and boot these parasites back to where they came from before they turn us into the next China or India. If those countries were so nice and their culture so great, none of these beggars would be here. But as soon as they get here, they start talking about how great and how awesome the motherland is, and how great their culture is, what a joke. Why are they here in the first place? Anyone who calls himself a Chinese American or Indian American needs to move the hell back to China or India. They are Chinese or Indian, not American.

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  83. @Numinous

    So this thing with the hands is more cultural than genetic, no?
     
    Yeah, I think that's right. Steve jumps too quickly to genetic differences where cultural taboos can explain so much.

    It's not the Chinese ability with handiwork that makes them a manufacturing hub, but the cheapness of their labor, and the acumen of their businessmen and politicians. I don't see the Chinese elite flocking to turn screws or welding plates in a factory; it's their peasants who desperately want to get out of their villages and be socially mobile. Chinese elites in the West pursue similar "gab-oriented" professions like Indians do.

    As for Indians, they still disdain manual labor, especially anything that feels "polluting". But we do have homegrown industrial cities with homegrown engineers, many of Brahmin ancestry, who do their own repairs and handwork (though less than Americans, as cheap labor is more readily available.)

    And the people who migrate from India to the US are drawn from the elite (either in terms of wealth or education.) The US accepts prole immigrants only from Central America; a prole Indian would have no prayer of getting a visa from his local US consulate.

    “It’s not the Chinese ability with handiwork that makes them a manufacturing hub, but the cheapness of their labor,..”
    ………..
    You’re making a blanket judgment. The best evidence is the numbers of vocational schools in both countries and how equipped are the wood and metal workshops in schools. My impression is Chinese school kids from all backgrounds are quite eager to handle machine tools such as lathes while the brighter hindu low caste kids would try to imitate the upper castes to do ‘mental work’.
    …….
    Some examples: Teng Xiaoping,the post cultural revolution party secretary knew how to operate a lathe and Xi JinPing had raised pigs.
    Another example is the quality of geology students. Geologists in the old days must do field work in remote and harsh places. Doing geology for a bright kids some decades ago was a badge of patriotism and I could name a number of top Chinese officials of geology background. The prime example is Zhou En-Lai who is probably the most respected statesman in Chinese in the past 70 yrs. He was an undergrad geology student in germany

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  84. res says:
    @pyrrhus
    First off, has anyone noticed that Taki isn’t taking comments?

    We've noticed...That, along with the popups makes it a no go site.

    We’ve noticed…That, along with the popups makes it a no go site.

    An ad blocker should handle the popups. And discussing the articles here handles the comments. I’m surprised we haven’t seen more comments here from people who used to comment at Taki’s on Steve’s articles.

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    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    It is still strange, though. Typically right-leaning sites tend to be less eager to remove comments from what I've seen. It seems like a disappointing development.
    , @JMcG
    Well, it may not be such a great loss, but when the Taki commenters start showing up here, I’m gone. Yan Shen is bad enough.
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  85. Anonymous[817] • Disclaimer says:

    What the typical naive ‘good white’ simply doesn’t know or understand about India – and the rest of the subcontinent for that matter – is that absolutely *every* aspect of life there, from the most minor trivial detail, to the highest level if decision making, is more or less governed by corruption, fraud, deceit, duplicity, dishonesty, cheating, double-dealing, falsehood etc etc to the nth possible degree.
    Rather like Jonathan Swift’s old adage of ‘… Big fleas have littler fleas to bite ‘em….’.

    Just in order to *survive* in such a harsh multi-sensate mind boggling at dizzy speed environment must cast a deep deep stamp of 4D chess cunning on the character.

    Makes a typical day on Wall St. seem like the proverbial ‘Vicarage Tea Party’.

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    • Replies: @Luke Lea
    Anonymous wrote: "What the typical naive ‘good white’ simply doesn’t know or understand about India – and the rest of the subcontinent for that matter – is that absolutely *every* aspect of life there, from the most minor trivial detail, to the highest level if decision making, is more or less governed by corruption, fraud, deceit, duplicity, dishonesty, cheating, double-dealing, falsehood etc etc to the nth possible degree."

    If I'm not mistaken the whole world, or at least much of it, used to be like that, including in places like England. Everybody was exploiting and being exploited by everybody else. It was man's fallen state.

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  86. indocon says:
    @grapesoda

    Thousands of years of Brahmin speculations didn’t do much for India’s prosperity...
     
    Um, it didn't?

    https://imgur.com/gallery/4hNsD

    Why do you think Christopher Columbus was trying to get to India? For trade obviously.

    Between this and last week's weird theory about how most Indians think the British instituted the caste system, Steve is clearly out of his depth when it comes to India. But that's OK. I wouldn't even try to take on as much as he does.

    Pre industrial revolution, pre capita GDP was pretty uniform across most farming societies, as such you expect India to have higher share of world GDP. That changed with invention of steam engine, and the bar charts show that.

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  87. anonymous[213] • Disclaimer says:

    India and China have a lot in common. Both are low trust, every man for himself, dog-eat-dog societies rife with corruption, and both are the world’s biggest exporters of people, especially to the west. They can’t stop making them at home but want to force the rest of the world to take in their surplus population.

    Any discussion of the “greatness” of these two cultures is waste of time. If their cultures are so great, they wouldn’t be such shithole countries and their people wouldn’t be so desperate to get the hell out, banging on every western country’s doors begging to be let in, though these days it’s more like demanding, especially the Indians, they act like America would collapse without them. Indians are the world’s foremost beggars, the chest thumping bullshit artists of the east. Indian streets are strewn with garbage wherever you go. 800 million Indians still defecate out in the open. Indians have a tolerance for filth and grime like no other people on earth, it’s no wonder their country is like the sewer pit of humanity, but then they come over here and act like they are the smartest people on earth. What a joke.

    Not only will America do fine without these job stealing parasites from Asia, but we will do infinitely better without them. Don’t believe us? Leave and see.

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  88. danand says:

    Due to censorship and language barriers, Chinese individuals aren’t well represented in English-language cyberspace. Yet in real life, the Chinese build things, such as bridges that don’t fall down, and they make stuff, employing tens of millions of proletarians in their factories.

    Even simplified mandarin is close to order of magnitude more frustrating than the English language for exactness and efficiency. English speakers/writers have relatively minor “there: their” or “by/buy” inefficiencies retarding them a little. Chinese have to get the tone just right, the characters exactly so, and the order spot on; lest the necessary exactness is lost.
    Chinese while speaking often have to repeat what they are attempting convey 12 times over to ensure understanding. Choosing/descriminating the characters to convey precise intent can be mind numbing.
    I’d liken that inefficiencies affect as similar to the hypothesis that Mediterranean peoples, over the course of their adaptive evolution, have had to prioritize more of their “DNA’s energies” towards disease fighting capability, over advanced thinking capacity development. Too much wasted energy. They’ve done it once with simplified Mandarin, maybe the Chinese will adapt a language more efficient than English.

    Reich doesn’t yet have much ancient DNA from China (the Chinese government tries to limit high-tech grave-robbing to Chinese researchers), but the basics are evident.

    Even the living Chinese don’t get tested, ergo a limited database to draw and interpret from. 23&me has collected very little DNA from Chinese, ~1/4% of their clients. Why get tested, when you know who you are?

    But over the past 5,000 years or so, the two original groups have largely merged genetically into one Han race, so only a north-south cline is left.

    I think this is one of the reasons Chinese may be a little less concerned about passing on their individual genes than the Indians are. Combine that with “fewer religious obstacles”, for my lack of a better term, and Chinese will be much more open to DNA manipulation; which will give them first jump. I would guess at least a generations head start?

    India is the land of diversity, which is another word for inequality. India is kind of a subcontinental-scale version of a Democratic-ruled American city, such as Baltimore, where world-class talent such as Johns Hopkins resides side by side with intractable social problems.

    And soon enough those lower Indian casts will start to demand social justice and equality.

    India puts much of its effort into higher education, while allowing its mass schooling to be awful. Two Indian states tried the PISA test in 2009 and both scored at sub-Saharan levels, with the northern state doing even worse than the southern state. In math, Indian eighth graders performed at the level of South Korean third graders.

    Not unlike California’s dismal results, 3rd worst state in the nation for averaged testing performance.

    And the Indians tend to be more verbally agile than the Chinese and more adept at the kind of high-level abstract thinking required by modern computer science, law, and soft major academia. Thousands of years of Brahmin speculations didn’t do much for India’s prosperity, but somehow have prepared Indians to make fortunes in 21st-century America.

    Dropped into a society with high enough trust, average intellect, and resources, that bred in superiority is released. You’d expect results on par the other groups that historically followed similar paths/strategies. It’s analogous to letting a Ferrari out on the track. A Kia’s not a Ferrari; but you’d never know it by their performance while stuck in the stop & go on the freeway.

    The shorter, darker people of the South seem to be pulling ahead. The parts of India that are doing best today, such as, in their ideologically different ways, capitalist Bangalore and leftist Kerala, tend to be in the more Dravidian, less Aryan south.

    Bangalore’s current population is ~12M. In 1950, it was but 746,000. There has been a hugh shift in demographics of the city, smart people followed India’s government investments to the South, it’s much more “Aryan” now.

    Obviously the USA has been gifted so far with its good enough/right kind of genetics, combined with excellent natural resources. But as poster CCZ brought up on another thread which referenced “IQ and The Wealth of Nations by Richard Lynn and Tatu Vanhanen”, once/if the USA’s National IQ tumbles much below ~95, it will only be a matter of time…until China becomes the worlds leading nation: for whatever that status will be worth?

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  89. @res

    We’ve noticed…That, along with the popups makes it a no go site.
     
    An ad blocker should handle the popups. And discussing the articles here handles the comments. I'm surprised we haven't seen more comments here from people who used to comment at Taki's on Steve's articles.

    It is still strange, though. Typically right-leaning sites tend to be less eager to remove comments from what I’ve seen. It seems like a disappointing development.

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    • Agree: res
    • Replies: @Mr.Mister
    I suspect there was probably outside pressure that caused Taki to close their comments section. Whatever it was, it seems like the noose is slowly tightening...
    , @MBlanc46
    We enjoy shellacking Leftist trolls who show up, whereas their strategy is to silence any opposition.
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  90. OFWHAP says:
    @onetwothree
    This has probably been asked before, but when did takimag stop allowing comments? Did they ever say why?

    Yeah, they were usually bad, but that had more to do with Disqus, which is designed to highlight the worst comments.

    If you’re using a “Do Not Track” extension, such as Blur or Ghostery, then you could be blocking Disqus. You’ll have to whitelist Disqus to see comments.

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  91. Sean says:
    @Anonymous
    What a waste of silver, silver that we will never get back.

    So basically, by dominating world trade and thus accumulating the world's biggest cash pile, the Chinese will basically stop anyone from possessing any silver.

    Curiously, a similar complaint by the British sparked off the 'Opium Wars'.

    Tell that to Nelson Bunker Hunt who got a lock on the world’s silver, or so he thought (the US government altered the rules). Trump’s signature move throughout his career was to bilk his workers, contractors, and creditors by declining to pay them all of what they were owed. He has discussed a strategy of doing something similar, or threatening to, in relation to the US indebtedness to China.

    Anyway, getting that stuff to burn on the mountains of the Tibetan plateau (very little oxygen) requires highly advanced technology.

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  92. @Buddwing
    Questions that I never see discussed:

    What will the Indian community in the US look like in coming years? Will it be post-caste, or will caste be preserved? What do Indian leaders in the US (politicians, celebrities, high-tech engineers) think should be imported from their culture and what ought to be transcended? What is the caste makeup of Indian immigrants to the US?

    I find it hard to imagine journalists actually asking these questions, perhaps because we are convinced by facile dismissals of the idea that caste has any importance in the US.

    Excellent question…it seems they still stick with their own caste here in America.

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  93. anonymous[251] • Disclaimer says:

    “India is the land of diversity, which is another word for inequality. India is kind of a subcontinental-scale version of a Democratic-ruled American city, such as Baltimore, where world-class talent such as Johns Hopkins resides side by side with intractable social problems.” (also from the Taki article.)

    I’ve never been able to wrap my head around the notion that “diversity and equality” could occupy the same space. An example of Leftist cognitive dissonance perhaps?

    And the analogy with Baltimore is priceless.

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  94. @Steve Sailer
    I have a theory about India that's kind of like my Dirt Gap theory about American cities, which is that because India is shaped like an upside down pyramid, southern Indians live closer to the shore and thus are more exposed to the outside world, while, say, the 200 million residents of Uttar Pradesh on the Ganges live deep inland and thus miss out on exposure to outside ideas.

    Wonder which other part of the world the same could be said for…just on the tip of my tongue I swear…Afrin? Afrit?

    It’ll come to me.

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  95. @Yan Shen

    Granted, there’s little hostile hysteria over China the way the Establishment is currently freaking out over the modest challenge posed by Russia, with only one-ninth of China’s population. But there’s not much enthusiasm for China, either.
     
    Well didn't uh some guy named Donald Trump just decide to impose $50 billion worth of tariffs on over 1,300 Chinese exports?

    http://money.cnn.com/2018/04/03/news/economy/us-tariffs-china/index.html

    Also, I seem to remember FBI director Christopher Wray recently freaking out over the Chinese as well.

    https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2018/02/15/fbi-director-testifies-chinese-students-and-intelligence-threats


    So one of the things we’re trying to do is view the China threat as not just a whole-of-government threat but a whole-of-society threat on their end, and I think it’s going to take a whole-of-society response by us.

     

    Now I don't know what a whole of society response entails, but quite frankly that kind of tone worries me as a Chinese American. And let's not forget Congress basically pressuring AT&T, Verizon, and Best Buy into dropping Huawei phones as well. I see clear signs of Sinophobia being on the rise in this country and quite frankly it worries me.

    For example, Chinese higher education isn’t yet competitive on the world stage, but China appears to be doing a decent job of educating the masses in the basics.
     
    Not quite. Yes, Chinese universities are still in a relatively nascent state of ascent. But, as I pointed out in my article on the math/verbal split, in certain quantitative areas Chinese universities are already near or at the fore.

    http://www.unz.com/article/iq-or-the-mathverbal-split/


    Based on the number of papers in the top 10% of citations, East Asian universities clearly excel at mathematics and computer science and physical sciences and engineering relative to the other three categories. For the time period of 2012-2015 and ranked by total number of top 10% papers based on citation rate, East Asia had 5 of the top 10 universities in physical sciences and engineering and 8 out of the top 10 universities in mathematics and computer science.

    By contrast when looking at total top 10% papers in the field of biomedical and health sciences, the highest ranked East Asian university was Shanghai Jiao Tong at 48th. For life and earth sciences, the highest ranked East Asian university was Zhejiang at 20th. And in social sciences and humanities, the top rated East Asian university was National University of Singapore at a fairly low 80th place.
     

    US News Global for instance, also ranks Tsinghua as the #1 computer science and #1 engineering school worldwide as well. In the same manner that notions of aggregate IQ tend to be somewhat misleading when it comes to understanding East Asian academic/career orientations, aggregate university performance across all disciplines leads to the same skewed picture...

    YS says “that kind of tone worries me as a Chinese American”.

    I reply choose to be an American of Chinese descent or GTFO.

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    • Replies: @Yan Shen
    Is there any difference between Chinese American and American of Chinese descent? Now maybe I'm just crazy, but in mind those two terms seem to be rather synonymous...
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  96. Luke Lea says:
    @Yan Shen
    Well you seem hopelessly sanguine about the future of race relations and quiet frankly misguided about where the root of the problem lies.

    I highly doubt most Chinese Americans concerned about the seeming rise of Sinophobia in this country or who were part of the Asian American groups that have been filing lawsuits against Harvard are really influenced that much by thoughts of China's so called century of humiliation. What this boils down to is reciprocity and fairness and really trying to shift the blame onto Chinese Americans misses the point.

    Various people have been joking now that America seems to be in the midst of a Cultural Revolution, which to most is obviously the fault of those left wing PC fanatics wreaking havoc upon the institutions and values of our country. But allow me to argue that the rot actually lies much deeper and permeates the entire ethos of this country. It's hardly just a matter of obnoxious Social Justice Jihadis.

    What this really boils down to is what people like Amy Chua have been pointing out for years now, partly tongue-in-cheek, but also with much seriousness, that the Western obsession with self-esteem can often be counterproductive and quite frankly has gotten out of control. So for instance, we typically hear about the Dunning-Kruger effect and how the less competent have a greater tendency to overestimate their own ability, like uh for instance nobodies who have the gall to somehow compare themselves to Nicolaus Copernicus. What's particularly interesting though is that East Asians generally speaking tend to be the one clear exception to that rule.

    http://www.apa.org/monitor/feb03/overestimate.aspx

    Regardless of how pervasive the phenomenon is, it is clear from Dunning's and others' work that many Americans, at least sometimes and under some conditions, have a tendency to inflate their worth. It is interesting, therefore, to see the phenomenon's mirror opposite in another culture. In research comparing North American and East Asian self-assessments, Heine of the University of British Columbia finds that East Asians tend to underestimate their abilities, with an aim toward improving the self and getting along with others.

    There are cultural, social and individual motives behind these tendencies, Heine and colleagues observe in a paper in the October 1999 Psychological Review (Vol. 106, No. 4). "As Western society becomes more individualistic, a successful life has come to be equated with having high self-esteem," Heine says. "Inflating one's sense of self creates positive emotions and feelings of self-efficacy, but the downside is that people don't really like self-enhancers very much."

    Conversely, East Asians' self-improving or self-critical stance helps them maintain their "face," or reputation, and as a result, their interpersonal network. But the cost is they don't feel as good about themselves, he says. Because people in these cultures have different motivations, they make very different choices, Heine adds. If Americans perceive they're not doing well at something, they'll look for something else to do instead. "If you're bad at volleyball, well fine, you won't play volleyball," as Heine puts it. East Asians, though, view a poor performance as an invitation to try harder.
     

    Really, this is in some sense old news, but in another sense an astounding empirical fact. As far as I'm aware of, East Asians are the only major racial/ethnic group that systematically underestimates their own abilities and engages in relentless self criticism!

    So I think this then is ultimately the root of contemporary American societal maladies. And this is hardly a left-wing problem. Take for instance various alt-right HBD types on this site. Everyone always just seems to be complaining endlessly about Chinese Americans or whoever else is doing well in this country, accusing them of cheating or gaming the system or the likes, often with scant or little empirical evidence of any kind, apart from vague personal anecdotes and despite clear evidence to the contrary. In fact one of the most curious empirical phenomenon has been the increasing convergence between Steve Sailer and organizations like FairTest in terms of attitudes towards standardized testing over the past 15-20 years!

    And let's not forget the entire thing with Japan bashing back in the day and now rampant Sinophobia. Since Chinese and Chinese Americans are unlikely to all of a sudden stop being successful at the sorts of quantitative STEM areas that they're known to be good at, and since Chinese Americans rarely agitate politically in the way that blacks, Hispanics, and whites do, surely the heart of the problem is much more the rotten ethos of contemporary black, Hispanic, and white Americans rather than anything that Chinese or East Asians have done in particular.

    I only hope that Christopher Wray's comments aren't the prelude to the eventual coming of the pogroms!

    Yan Shen writes: “What this boils down to is reciprocity and fairness and really trying to shift the blame onto Chinese Americans misses the point.”

    In the case of Harvard College, a liberal arts school from which tomorrow’s elites have traditionally been drawn, “reciprocity and fairness” don’t get at the cultural realities, which are also partly genetic. If you don’t see this I won’t try to argue it.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sean
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/02/20/china-wages-war-funeral-strippers/
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  97. Sean says:
    @Luke Lea
    Yan Shen writes: "What this boils down to is reciprocity and fairness and really trying to shift the blame onto Chinese Americans misses the point."

    In the case of Harvard College, a liberal arts school from which tomorrow's elites have traditionally been drawn, "reciprocity and fairness" don't get at the cultural realities, which are also partly genetic. If you don't see this I won't try to argue it.

    Read More
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  98. Len says:
    @Yan Shen
    Well you seem hopelessly sanguine about the future of race relations and quiet frankly misguided about where the root of the problem lies.

    I highly doubt most Chinese Americans concerned about the seeming rise of Sinophobia in this country or who were part of the Asian American groups that have been filing lawsuits against Harvard are really influenced that much by thoughts of China's so called century of humiliation. What this boils down to is reciprocity and fairness and really trying to shift the blame onto Chinese Americans misses the point.

    Various people have been joking now that America seems to be in the midst of a Cultural Revolution, which to most is obviously the fault of those left wing PC fanatics wreaking havoc upon the institutions and values of our country. But allow me to argue that the rot actually lies much deeper and permeates the entire ethos of this country. It's hardly just a matter of obnoxious Social Justice Jihadis.

    What this really boils down to is what people like Amy Chua have been pointing out for years now, partly tongue-in-cheek, but also with much seriousness, that the Western obsession with self-esteem can often be counterproductive and quite frankly has gotten out of control. So for instance, we typically hear about the Dunning-Kruger effect and how the less competent have a greater tendency to overestimate their own ability, like uh for instance nobodies who have the gall to somehow compare themselves to Nicolaus Copernicus. What's particularly interesting though is that East Asians generally speaking tend to be the one clear exception to that rule.

    http://www.apa.org/monitor/feb03/overestimate.aspx

    Regardless of how pervasive the phenomenon is, it is clear from Dunning's and others' work that many Americans, at least sometimes and under some conditions, have a tendency to inflate their worth. It is interesting, therefore, to see the phenomenon's mirror opposite in another culture. In research comparing North American and East Asian self-assessments, Heine of the University of British Columbia finds that East Asians tend to underestimate their abilities, with an aim toward improving the self and getting along with others.

    There are cultural, social and individual motives behind these tendencies, Heine and colleagues observe in a paper in the October 1999 Psychological Review (Vol. 106, No. 4). "As Western society becomes more individualistic, a successful life has come to be equated with having high self-esteem," Heine says. "Inflating one's sense of self creates positive emotions and feelings of self-efficacy, but the downside is that people don't really like self-enhancers very much."

    Conversely, East Asians' self-improving or self-critical stance helps them maintain their "face," or reputation, and as a result, their interpersonal network. But the cost is they don't feel as good about themselves, he says. Because people in these cultures have different motivations, they make very different choices, Heine adds. If Americans perceive they're not doing well at something, they'll look for something else to do instead. "If you're bad at volleyball, well fine, you won't play volleyball," as Heine puts it. East Asians, though, view a poor performance as an invitation to try harder.
     

    Really, this is in some sense old news, but in another sense an astounding empirical fact. As far as I'm aware of, East Asians are the only major racial/ethnic group that systematically underestimates their own abilities and engages in relentless self criticism!

    So I think this then is ultimately the root of contemporary American societal maladies. And this is hardly a left-wing problem. Take for instance various alt-right HBD types on this site. Everyone always just seems to be complaining endlessly about Chinese Americans or whoever else is doing well in this country, accusing them of cheating or gaming the system or the likes, often with scant or little empirical evidence of any kind, apart from vague personal anecdotes and despite clear evidence to the contrary. In fact one of the most curious empirical phenomenon has been the increasing convergence between Steve Sailer and organizations like FairTest in terms of attitudes towards standardized testing over the past 15-20 years!

    And let's not forget the entire thing with Japan bashing back in the day and now rampant Sinophobia. Since Chinese and Chinese Americans are unlikely to all of a sudden stop being successful at the sorts of quantitative STEM areas that they're known to be good at, and since Chinese Americans rarely agitate politically in the way that blacks, Hispanics, and whites do, surely the heart of the problem is much more the rotten ethos of contemporary black, Hispanic, and white Americans rather than anything that Chinese or East Asians have done in particular.

    I only hope that Christopher Wray's comments aren't the prelude to the eventual coming of the pogroms!

    In fact one of the most curious empirical phenomenon has been the increasing convergence between Steve Sailer and organizations like FairTest in terms of attitudes towards standardized testing over the past 15-20 years!

    Huh. From Wiki:

    FairTest was founded in 1985 by leaders of civil rights and education groups to advance their view that the misuse, overuse and flaws of standardized testing practices may be detrimental to academic achievement and equal opportunity.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FairTest

    Not sure if I see the convergence between Sailer and FairTest. In fact, such an assertion seems rather silly.

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  99. Marcus D. says:

    And the Indians tend to be more verbally agile than the Chinese and more adept at the kind of high-level abstract thinking required by modern computer science, law, and soft major academia. Thousands of years of Brahmin speculations didn’t do much for India’s prosperity, but somehow have prepared Indians to make fortunes in 21st-century America.

    Yes, the Indian upper classes were interested in abstractions for it’s own sake. Their math contributions are impressive. They developed the zero concept, and of course our numeric system. All of these, without the typical utilitarian East Asian mindset. So, with their numeric system they were able to develop very sophysticated mathematics. And of course, many of the contributions from their european cousins, were only possible with those numbers. Can someone imagine, how is it difficult to do maths with roman numbers ?

    The interest in knowledge for it’s own sake is a very distinctive Aryan trait. From the ancient Greeks to the Hindu upper classes or the modern European scientists.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Thomm

    From the ancient Greeks to the Hindu upper classes or the modern European scientists.
     
    You are again conflating 'caste' with 'Aryanness' and 'IQ'. If that were the case, the Indians who are in the US and are highly successful would all be tall, Greco-Persian-looking people from the North, not some dark-skinned little people from the South.

    From what I can tell, in India, there are high-caste people who are poor, and low-caste people who are rich.

    Around here, the simple minds assume that caste, Caucasian-ness, IQ, and wealth are all fully correlated among Indians. But my experience has revealed that it is not.

    It is not like 'caste' is tattooed on people's foreheads.
    , @DB Cooper
    The number system we use nowadays are from the Arabs, not Indian.
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  100. Luke Lea says:
    @anon
    The Chinese often tout their multi-millenia contiguous history as a single civilization, and the claim that this makes them the "oldest" such civilization. To what extent is this true or myth?

    “The Chinese often tout their multi-millenia contiguous history as a single civilization, and the claim that this makes them the “oldest” such civilization. To what extent is this true or myth?”

    A better question is to what extent is this a good thing or a bad? Look at Egypt. Or at India for that matter. Modern Western Civilization, though it has its roots in ancient Greek, Roman, and Hebrew culture and ideas, is something fundamentally new. It’s unlike anything that ever existed before, thank God.

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  101. Luke Lea says:
    @Peter Akuleyev
    Russia is in real danger of becoming another dependency of China rather than an ally. The Chinese respect Putin but in general have nothing but contempt for Russians, whom they consider undisciplined drunks and a source of excellent prostitutes. The Chinese already control the economy of the Russian Far East to an alarming degree and are eager to take over more and more of Russia's resources. The Russians probably figure they can manage the Chinese more easily than the West, who also want Russia's resources, but my impression is that Russians generally dramatically underestimate how intelligent and resourceful the Chinese are. Too many Russians still believe in their own racial superiority.

    I imagine Russia will eventually be in defensive alliance with the West. “Hold’em at the Urals” will be the battle cry. Or maybe not.

    Read More
    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
    I wish. But doubt it.

    In 25 years' time, the UK, France, Germany, Sweden, Austria, Belgium, Luxembourg and the Netherlands will no longer have much of a cultural, religious, and racial affinity with Russians. We can see that that process is well underway across western and central Europe already.

    And the new Muslim leaders of those countries may not be interested in helping Russia to survive a Chinese invasion or anything else.

    As for the USA coming to Russia's aid, our troops and resources probably will be occupied putting down race riots and secessionist movements, e.g. in California and south Texas.

    Russia will have to count on surviving without help from the USA, which will have enough difficulty with increased long-term unemployment & poverty, more widespread racial violence, and the Mexican-majority States that feel little loyalty or affection towards the Union and the remaining white-American minority.

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  102. One caveat I need to make to Steve’s assertion is that the Indians are more verbally agile than the Chinese is that I think most people are mistaking behavior with aptitude. The Chinese are actually stronger than the Indians in verbal reasoning and significantly stronger in quantitative, all the sizeable empirical data points to this even with the most selected of Indian population samples. What sets the Indian’s apart from the Chinese is actually their loquaciousness, their love of hearing themselves talk, their extroversion, and their social fearlessness.

    The Indians are part of what can be accurately described as the Chutzpahsphere that stretches from Greece at the West and India in the East. It is the urheimat of what Steve’s readers will recognize as the gold chain wearing men set with ground zero being the Levant. They are societies that produce people like Shmuely Boteach and Baba Ramdev far in abundance of what is expected. The Chinese, like all Northeastern Eurasians, are socially timid; shy and uncomfortable in unfamiliar social settings, and generally unwilling to stick their necks out. This is basically our biggest weakness and Indians’ biggest advantage in open social interactions unguarded by cohesive ethnic gatekeeping, i.e. modern liberal multicultural societies. The elite Indians will naturally win out because they are more aggressive, aka “team players” and “management material”.

    Unfortunately this doesn’t do Indians in India much good because when the entire society is structured so that social extroversion is so heavily favoured, where everyone is to a degree an adept bullshitter, then you end up with the people who are supremely full of shit inevitably rising to the top.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    "Chutzpahsphere"

    Tracey Ullman in the 1990s did a character named Chic, a Muslim cabdriver in NYC, who was the Platonic essence of this. Unfortunately, he's practically impossible to find on videos online.

    , @Luke Lea
    "The Chutzpahsphere"

    Priceless
    , @Yan Shen

    Unfortunately this doesn’t do Indians in India much good because when the entire society is structured so that social extroversion is so heavily favoured, where everyone is to a degree an adept bullshitter, then you end up with the people who are supremely full of shit inevitably rising to the top.
     
    Well I'm assuming you don't literally mean that these people are full of shit, hahaha...

    Not convinced about your assertions regarding Chinese verbal vs upper-caste Indian verbal, but IIRC you cited some California high school data sets a while back to argue this. I'm toeing the conventional HBD line here. See for instance the point I also made in my math/verbal split article about how Chinese/Koreans combined make up almost 65% of recent USAMO qualifiers but South Asians dominate the Spelling Bee.

    Regarding bullshitting, please see my point about Dunning-Kruger and the East Asian exception. If Americans have a stereotype of Indians being bullshitters, it's fair to say that East Asians tend to perceive most non-East Asian ethnic groups as embodying that stereotype somewhat.

    A good American example would be that of Tesla, i.e. their recent woes and the company's general history of over-promising and under-delivering, in contrast to the East Asian tendency to under-promise but over-deliver.

    In a decade or two or whenever electric cars gain mainstream traction and some Chinese company like BYD or whoever else dominates the market, I'm sure well get the same American historical revisionism about cheating/copying/whatever...

    http://money.cnn.com/2018/04/04/technology/tesla-elon-musk/index.html
    https://mashable.com/2017/10/03/tesla-model-3-production-woes-analysis/#qDKaEl6Wwmqk

    , @DB Cooper
    This is one of the reasons Indian managers and CEOs are much more common than Chinese managers and CEOs in American companies because to be a manager or a CEO technical skills are secondary to bullshitting skills.
    , @MBlanc46
    “Chutzpahsphere”. Delightful! I’ll use it.
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  103. Anonym says:
    @Flip
    The US ruling class used to be the same ethnicity as the rest of the population. That is much less true now.

    The US ruling class used to be the same ethnicity as the rest of the population. That is much less true now.

    I am not sure exactly how your comment relates to mine. India’s IQ of 82 vs China’s of 100 (or thereabouts) is massive and to me, the primary reason why China has the advantage there. “The Gap” is higher there than the white/black averages in the USA. Of course that is going to have a major impact on relative ability of the countries.

    To your point though, China was ruled for hundreds of years in recent memory, e.g. 1644 to 1912 by the Manchu people. That is an ethnic group of only 10 million people. I know very little about the Manchu other than that they ruled China for a long time. Maybe someone else can chip in. I thought “How the hell can one ethnic group rule so many people!?” when I was much younger. Little did I know…

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qing_dynasty

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchu_people

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    I know very little about the Manchu other than that they ruled China for a long time.
     
    It was not a really great time to be Han.
    , @Hapalong Cassidy
    The Manchu are one of those enigmatic Altaic people, who like their Hun, Mongol and Turkic cousins, are known for conquering the shit out of other people and little else. There have been some scholars, such as Michael Hart, who claim that it is due to higher IQ, but I’ve never seen any evidence that they’re smarter than the Chinese, other than being good at war. In fact, both times that China fell to the Altaics, they were at a low point. During the time of Genghis Khan they were already divided into northern and southern kingdoms. And the Ming had already lost control of the country in a bitter civil war when the Manchu invaded (one faction more or less invited them to invade).

    Nonetheless, the Altaic record of conquest is impressive. In fact, at one point during the 1700’s, more than half of the world’s population was under Altaic control (the Manchus in China, the Moghuls in India, and the Ottoman Empire in the Middle East and Eastern Europe).
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  104. @Cloudbuster
    Sorry, Steve. Taki's gave a big FU to its readers by shutting down comments. I won't be giving them page views anymore. I guess from now on I'll have to be satisfied with the first couple graphs and what context I can glean from the comments here.

    Yes, and the snarky lecture by Taki’s — “don’t bitch about the lack of comments but appreciate that the website is provided to you for free at all” — didn’t help.

    Bye, Taki’s.

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    • Agree: MBlanc46
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  105. @Anonymous
    India, being an infinitely ramified patchwork of multiple competing endogenous clans resembles more the Middle and Near East, (the Sailed 'Hairy Man Axis of Evil), than anywhere else.
    The result is, that due to severe selection pressures in the face of perennial shortage, these groups were and are in a perpetual state of economic warfare against one another - and this has honed a hyper clannish insider/outsider culture/instinct within the Indians, so that 'pity' for the outsider is non-existent, whilst the winner, quite literally, takes it all. Thus works the manner of Indian group selection.

    A further consequence of this all-powerful peculiarly Indian phenomenon, as it bears upon the reality of today's Economist-whipped world of uncontrolled massive immigration, is the more-than-a-mere-suspicion fact of the Indian government doing its damndest to export a considerable quantum of its excess population - which it knows full well that it cannot possibly support - onto the dumb damn fool Economist dictated nations of the west. There maybe a 'mere' 5 million subcontinental Indians in the USA now, but you can *bet your boots* that the Indian diaspora will *massively* dwarf the Mexican influx of half a century ago in magnitude, and, very likely, Indians, sometime this century, will become *the* numerically dominant ethny of the USA. The same will likely go for the EU.

    Unlike the unseemly, unskilled and unwanted rabble from Africa we now see plaguing Europe, the Indian flood will be *very very* more sophisticated than that. You see, the bitter group selection/clan battle for survival in India has engendered a cunning and instinct for bribery and trickery - and for gaming and playing systems - which is simply beyond belief to naive white bread blue-eyed innocents.
    They will eat you all up for breakfast.

    As for those big, fat, pompous be-suited fools of Economist types who are foisting this scenario upon the west, why those skinny little humble guys will (metaphorically) knife your big fat white-shirted belly overhanging your trousers, and take everything you've got.

    The Mexican influx of “half a century ago”? Mexicans are still flooding into the USA every day, both legally and illegally — far, far more than Indians settling in the USA.

    Indians do present a serious danger to us, though, because of the amoral cut-throat way in which they tend to operate, as you point out.

    Indians will never be the biggest racial group in the former constituent parts of the USA — and they, like all non-Mexicans, won’t be particularly welcome or safe in the independent (seceded) Mexican-majority California that is coming.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Don't you believe it.
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  106. @Duke of Qin
    One caveat I need to make to Steve's assertion is that the Indians are more verbally agile than the Chinese is that I think most people are mistaking behavior with aptitude. The Chinese are actually stronger than the Indians in verbal reasoning and significantly stronger in quantitative, all the sizeable empirical data points to this even with the most selected of Indian population samples. What sets the Indian's apart from the Chinese is actually their loquaciousness, their love of hearing themselves talk, their extroversion, and their social fearlessness.

    The Indians are part of what can be accurately described as the Chutzpahsphere that stretches from Greece at the West and India in the East. It is the urheimat of what Steve's readers will recognize as the gold chain wearing men set with ground zero being the Levant. They are societies that produce people like Shmuely Boteach and Baba Ramdev far in abundance of what is expected. The Chinese, like all Northeastern Eurasians, are socially timid; shy and uncomfortable in unfamiliar social settings, and generally unwilling to stick their necks out. This is basically our biggest weakness and Indians' biggest advantage in open social interactions unguarded by cohesive ethnic gatekeeping, i.e. modern liberal multicultural societies. The elite Indians will naturally win out because they are more aggressive, aka "team players" and "management material".

    Unfortunately this doesn't do Indians in India much good because when the entire society is structured so that social extroversion is so heavily favoured, where everyone is to a degree an adept bullshitter, then you end up with the people who are supremely full of shit inevitably rising to the top.

    “Chutzpahsphere”

    Tracey Ullman in the 1990s did a character named Chic, a Muslim cabdriver in NYC, who was the Platonic essence of this. Unfortunately, he’s practically impossible to find on videos online.

    Read More
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  107. @Yan Shen
    Well you seem hopelessly sanguine about the future of race relations and quiet frankly misguided about where the root of the problem lies.

    I highly doubt most Chinese Americans concerned about the seeming rise of Sinophobia in this country or who were part of the Asian American groups that have been filing lawsuits against Harvard are really influenced that much by thoughts of China's so called century of humiliation. What this boils down to is reciprocity and fairness and really trying to shift the blame onto Chinese Americans misses the point.

    Various people have been joking now that America seems to be in the midst of a Cultural Revolution, which to most is obviously the fault of those left wing PC fanatics wreaking havoc upon the institutions and values of our country. But allow me to argue that the rot actually lies much deeper and permeates the entire ethos of this country. It's hardly just a matter of obnoxious Social Justice Jihadis.

    What this really boils down to is what people like Amy Chua have been pointing out for years now, partly tongue-in-cheek, but also with much seriousness, that the Western obsession with self-esteem can often be counterproductive and quite frankly has gotten out of control. So for instance, we typically hear about the Dunning-Kruger effect and how the less competent have a greater tendency to overestimate their own ability, like uh for instance nobodies who have the gall to somehow compare themselves to Nicolaus Copernicus. What's particularly interesting though is that East Asians generally speaking tend to be the one clear exception to that rule.

    http://www.apa.org/monitor/feb03/overestimate.aspx

    Regardless of how pervasive the phenomenon is, it is clear from Dunning's and others' work that many Americans, at least sometimes and under some conditions, have a tendency to inflate their worth. It is interesting, therefore, to see the phenomenon's mirror opposite in another culture. In research comparing North American and East Asian self-assessments, Heine of the University of British Columbia finds that East Asians tend to underestimate their abilities, with an aim toward improving the self and getting along with others.

    There are cultural, social and individual motives behind these tendencies, Heine and colleagues observe in a paper in the October 1999 Psychological Review (Vol. 106, No. 4). "As Western society becomes more individualistic, a successful life has come to be equated with having high self-esteem," Heine says. "Inflating one's sense of self creates positive emotions and feelings of self-efficacy, but the downside is that people don't really like self-enhancers very much."

    Conversely, East Asians' self-improving or self-critical stance helps them maintain their "face," or reputation, and as a result, their interpersonal network. But the cost is they don't feel as good about themselves, he says. Because people in these cultures have different motivations, they make very different choices, Heine adds. If Americans perceive they're not doing well at something, they'll look for something else to do instead. "If you're bad at volleyball, well fine, you won't play volleyball," as Heine puts it. East Asians, though, view a poor performance as an invitation to try harder.
     

    Really, this is in some sense old news, but in another sense an astounding empirical fact. As far as I'm aware of, East Asians are the only major racial/ethnic group that systematically underestimates their own abilities and engages in relentless self criticism!

    So I think this then is ultimately the root of contemporary American societal maladies. And this is hardly a left-wing problem. Take for instance various alt-right HBD types on this site. Everyone always just seems to be complaining endlessly about Chinese Americans or whoever else is doing well in this country, accusing them of cheating or gaming the system or the likes, often with scant or little empirical evidence of any kind, apart from vague personal anecdotes and despite clear evidence to the contrary. In fact one of the most curious empirical phenomenon has been the increasing convergence between Steve Sailer and organizations like FairTest in terms of attitudes towards standardized testing over the past 15-20 years!

    And let's not forget the entire thing with Japan bashing back in the day and now rampant Sinophobia. Since Chinese and Chinese Americans are unlikely to all of a sudden stop being successful at the sorts of quantitative STEM areas that they're known to be good at, and since Chinese Americans rarely agitate politically in the way that blacks, Hispanics, and whites do, surely the heart of the problem is much more the rotten ethos of contemporary black, Hispanic, and white Americans rather than anything that Chinese or East Asians have done in particular.

    I only hope that Christopher Wray's comments aren't the prelude to the eventual coming of the pogroms!

    No reason to think that the Mexicans will target the Chinese any more than they will target the rest of us when they finally, conclusively take over California and Texas.

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  108. MG says:
    @Anonymous
    Not true.

    A Hong Kong tycoon who recently personally bought up most of the UK's natural gas supply network - untold billions of cash - started off his business life by making artificial flowers, and selling the same to the British.

    Countless other Hong Kong tycoons started off similarly, doing the grunt work in their own little workshop.

    The Chinese see no disgrace in labor.

    The Chinese may have a higher opinion of labor than Indians, but the Chinese aren’t exactly known for quality workmanship. High quality mechanical work has been the preserve of the white Western nations and the Japanese.

    Read More
    • Replies: @jimmyriddle
    China is climbing the value chain. Give it time.

    Japan was once known as a manufacturer of cheap, shoddy, goods.

    There is an incident in John Gunther's Inside Asia (written a few years before the war) where, as a joke, he considered presenting a Japanese minister with a Japanese-made one dollar wristwatch that he had bought in the US. Luckily, he ran the plan past his local guide, who warned him that, if he did this, the man who introduced Gunther to the minister would have to commit suicide because of the embarrassment his guest had caused.


    BTW, in 19th century Britain, Germany also had a reputation for making shoddy goods that undercut British manufacturers. That is why Parliament passed the Merchandise Mark Act mandating "Made in Germany" labels. Within a few years, of course, these had become a mark of good quality.

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  109. I look forward to Indian dominance so I can finally use my acquired language skills to ask people to do the needful and revert prompt because issue pending been so long.

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    • Replies: @The Wobbly Guy
    I frikkin hate seeing the word 'revert' when 'reply' is the correct word to use. The misuse of 'revert' has long been a staple of Singapore's email lingo.
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  110. Luke Lea says:
    @Anonymous
    What the typical naive 'good white' simply doesn't know or understand about India - and the rest of the subcontinent for that matter - is that absolutely *every* aspect of life there, from the most minor trivial detail, to the highest level if decision making, is more or less governed by corruption, fraud, deceit, duplicity, dishonesty, cheating, double-dealing, falsehood etc etc to the nth possible degree.
    Rather like Jonathan Swift's old adage of '... Big fleas have littler fleas to bite 'em....'.

    Just in order to *survive* in such a harsh multi-sensate mind boggling at dizzy speed environment must cast a deep deep stamp of 4D chess cunning on the character.

    Makes a typical day on Wall St. seem like the proverbial 'Vicarage Tea Party'.

    Anonymous wrote: “What the typical naive ‘good white’ simply doesn’t know or understand about India – and the rest of the subcontinent for that matter – is that absolutely *every* aspect of life there, from the most minor trivial detail, to the highest level if decision making, is more or less governed by corruption, fraud, deceit, duplicity, dishonesty, cheating, double-dealing, falsehood etc etc to the nth possible degree.”

    If I’m not mistaken the whole world, or at least much of it, used to be like that, including in places like England. Everybody was exploiting and being exploited by everybody else. It was man’s fallen state.

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    • Replies: @Buddwing
    I have visited India several times, once for more than a month, visiting both north and south. I also have many Indian friends in the US. One of the things that is most evident to me is that it is exhausting to travel there, both physically and psychically. It takes a toll walking past beggars and having to deal with the pervasive disorder. This is why I wonder about the coming generation of Americans of Indian origin. They find it exhausting too. The US is filled with nice places. In India, it is hard to isolate yourself from the harsher realities of life there. So I wonder what they will make of the US. Indian-origin politicians in the US range from conservative to socialist and immigrants range from the Indian-grocery store owner to CEOs of major corporations.

    A lot of Indians returning for visits look around and sense that the corruption and cruelty of life there is just wrong and they are happy to be out of it for the most part. (Others go back and start businesses of their own.) A lot bring their parents and other family members over. Americans don't really see this or think about it much, but the immigrants are impacting the US in a lot of ways that are far more integrated into the broad American society than other immigrant groups manage.

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  111. JMcG says:
    @res

    We’ve noticed…That, along with the popups makes it a no go site.
     
    An ad blocker should handle the popups. And discussing the articles here handles the comments. I'm surprised we haven't seen more comments here from people who used to comment at Taki's on Steve's articles.

    Well, it may not be such a great loss, but when the Taki commenters start showing up here, I’m gone. Yan Shen is bad enough.

    Read More
    • Replies: @MBlanc46
    Don’t let the door swat you in the rear end on the way oit.
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  112. Luke Lea says:
    @Duke of Qin
    One caveat I need to make to Steve's assertion is that the Indians are more verbally agile than the Chinese is that I think most people are mistaking behavior with aptitude. The Chinese are actually stronger than the Indians in verbal reasoning and significantly stronger in quantitative, all the sizeable empirical data points to this even with the most selected of Indian population samples. What sets the Indian's apart from the Chinese is actually their loquaciousness, their love of hearing themselves talk, their extroversion, and their social fearlessness.

    The Indians are part of what can be accurately described as the Chutzpahsphere that stretches from Greece at the West and India in the East. It is the urheimat of what Steve's readers will recognize as the gold chain wearing men set with ground zero being the Levant. They are societies that produce people like Shmuely Boteach and Baba Ramdev far in abundance of what is expected. The Chinese, like all Northeastern Eurasians, are socially timid; shy and uncomfortable in unfamiliar social settings, and generally unwilling to stick their necks out. This is basically our biggest weakness and Indians' biggest advantage in open social interactions unguarded by cohesive ethnic gatekeeping, i.e. modern liberal multicultural societies. The elite Indians will naturally win out because they are more aggressive, aka "team players" and "management material".

    Unfortunately this doesn't do Indians in India much good because when the entire society is structured so that social extroversion is so heavily favoured, where everyone is to a degree an adept bullshitter, then you end up with the people who are supremely full of shit inevitably rising to the top.

    “The Chutzpahsphere”

    Priceless

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  113. @Luke Lea
    I imagine Russia will eventually be in defensive alliance with the West. "Hold'em at the Urals" will be the battle cry. Or maybe not.

    I wish. But doubt it.

    In 25 years’ time, the UK, France, Germany, Sweden, Austria, Belgium, Luxembourg and the Netherlands will no longer have much of a cultural, religious, and racial affinity with Russians. We can see that that process is well underway across western and central Europe already.

    And the new Muslim leaders of those countries may not be interested in helping Russia to survive a Chinese invasion or anything else.

    As for the USA coming to Russia’s aid, our troops and resources probably will be occupied putting down race riots and secessionist movements, e.g. in California and south Texas.

    Russia will have to count on surviving without help from the USA, which will have enough difficulty with increased long-term unemployment & poverty, more widespread racial violence, and the Mexican-majority States that feel little loyalty or affection towards the Union and the remaining white-American minority.

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  114. Jason Liu says:
    @Ali Choudhury
    Excellent column. At the end of the day there will be one winner of the 21st century, the authoritarian Chinese which will be a tremendous shame.

    Why? Democracy is in no way better than authoritarianism, on average. If anything it’s the cause of most problems in developed countries.

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    • Replies: @Ali Choudhury
    Massive environmental degradation, the crushing of dissenters like Liu Xiaobo, mass censorship, biblical levels of corruption and a paranoid, thoroughly unaccountable elite that spends more on internal security and policing than national defence to keep its grip on power.
    , @MBlanc46
    Democracy is certainly a cause of serious social and political conflict in non-homogeneous societies.
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  115. @Anonym
    The US ruling class used to be the same ethnicity as the rest of the population. That is much less true now.

    I am not sure exactly how your comment relates to mine. India's IQ of 82 vs China's of 100 (or thereabouts) is massive and to me, the primary reason why China has the advantage there. "The Gap" is higher there than the white/black averages in the USA. Of course that is going to have a major impact on relative ability of the countries.

    To your point though, China was ruled for hundreds of years in recent memory, e.g. 1644 to 1912 by the Manchu people. That is an ethnic group of only 10 million people. I know very little about the Manchu other than that they ruled China for a long time. Maybe someone else can chip in. I thought "How the hell can one ethnic group rule so many people!?" when I was much younger. Little did I know...

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qing_dynasty
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchu_people

    I know very little about the Manchu other than that they ruled China for a long time.

    It was not a really great time to be Han.

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  116. @rogue-one
    To be fair, Nietzsche would have nothing but contempt for post-modern academics like Foucault or Derrida or Judith Butler.

    These parasitic academics simply use the weaponry provided by Nietzsche to destroy the foundations of the western civilization. If it is not Nietzsche, they would use Marx or any other author. Just like Hitler just liked to invade, and would use any argument to justify it, these post-mods just want to destroy the west and will use any argument to do so. Nietzsche today, Marx tomorrow, Luther day after tomorrow.

    Mr. Peterson seems to have a lot of respect for Nietzsche though Peterson respects Christianity a lot more than Nietzsche ever did.

    I feel that true heirs to Nietzsche are geneticists who would, perhaps unwittingly in some decades, bring out a genetic caste based society that Nietzsche would admire.

    I feel that true heirs to Nietzsche are geneticists who would, perhaps unwittingly in some decades, bring out a genetic caste based society that Nietzsche would admire.

    Could well be. Such ideas are structurally very close to Nietzsche’s superman-reveries, that’ for sure.

    The CIA (!) once supported the early postmodernist movement, because the postmodernists actively fought against left wing totalitarianism in post war France, and strange as it might sound: I give them credit, that they managed to win this fight.

    The last of the terribly authoritarian figures left over in France today is Jean-Luc Mélenchon from the leftwing Socialists – and his influence is shrinking every day. Thank god, if you ask me. (He even has an intellectual supporter: Foucault disciple and gay-activist Didier Eribon… – you would not want to say a lot of bad things about him, except maybe: He is not the brightest lad that there is in France right now.

    Nietzsche is a refreshingly good writer at times. And that’s a quality, of course. And Nietzsche has discovered that even the best arguments can be a cover up of pretty dark sentiments – and that is something, that every psychologist who is alive and kickin’ should be very interested in.

    (There is a direct line from Moliére and Shakespeare – via Goethe – Schopenhauer and Nietzsche to Freud and Jung. – Peterson digs this (at least a lot of this stuff), and of course: That’s the core of psychology: The human capacity (and drive even: That’s Schopenhauer!) for/ to (self-)deception.

    And then there is something else in Peterson, that I love a lot about him – and I still don’t know really, where that comes from: He knows how to fight (Pinker seems to shy away from that insight, and rather die in all his glorious and brilliant beauty, which he does incorporate, no doubt about that…and hopefully – not too much of envy on the side of yours truly either….).
    Is that the Christian core of Peterson : His alertness and his willingness to fight? Is he a part-scientist/ part modern knight?
    The idea, that it needs courage (and not only status…) to speak the truth, seems to have disappeared in the corridors of big media, big government and big science. And that makes the exceptions (Peterson, Paglia, Douglas & Charles Murray, Sam Harris, Jonathan Haidt even, here and there,…Steve Sailer, James Thompson, Heiner Rindermann, Anatoly Karlin, Thilo Sarrazin, so interesting!

    Read More
    • Replies: @Thin-Skinned Masta-Beta
    My "agree" button isn't working, but instead I'll put my humble thanks here.

    The quality of comments here is a great credit to the contributions of the hosts and authors here at Unz's.

    I'll be more than a little heartbroken if Mr. Unz is forced to clamp down or otherwise memoryhole the comments.

    Some truly bright gems hiding here...
    Brighter than a lot of paid content that #Fakenews slops out for us to swill.
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  117. songbird says:
    @pyrrhus
    First off, has anyone noticed that Taki isn’t taking comments?

    We've noticed...That, along with the popups makes it a no go site.

    I think Takimag was put on some sort of list. SPLC or something like that. Maybe, it’s the ads that caused the comments to be dropped. Pretty worrying sign.

    But I believe Ron Unz will hold fast, thankfully.

    Read More
    • Agree: TheBoom
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  118. Jason Liu says:
    @Peter Akuleyev
    Russia is in real danger of becoming another dependency of China rather than an ally. The Chinese respect Putin but in general have nothing but contempt for Russians, whom they consider undisciplined drunks and a source of excellent prostitutes. The Chinese already control the economy of the Russian Far East to an alarming degree and are eager to take over more and more of Russia's resources. The Russians probably figure they can manage the Chinese more easily than the West, who also want Russia's resources, but my impression is that Russians generally dramatically underestimate how intelligent and resourceful the Chinese are. Too many Russians still believe in their own racial superiority.

    Not sure where you’re getting that from. There is some condescension towards Russians for being not as rich as western countries, and maybe a bit crude when it comes to visitors. But I wouldn’t say Chinese people have contempt for Russians overall.

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  119. Thomm says:
    @Marcus D.

    And the Indians tend to be more verbally agile than the Chinese and more adept at the kind of high-level abstract thinking required by modern computer science, law, and soft major academia. Thousands of years of Brahmin speculations didn’t do much for India’s prosperity, but somehow have prepared Indians to make fortunes in 21st-century America.

     

    Yes, the Indian upper classes were interested in abstractions for it's own sake. Their math contributions are impressive. They developed the zero concept, and of course our numeric system. All of these, without the typical utilitarian East Asian mindset. So, with their numeric system they were able to develop very sophysticated mathematics. And of course, many of the contributions from their european cousins, were only possible with those numbers. Can someone imagine, how is it difficult to do maths with roman numbers ?

    The interest in knowledge for it's own sake is a very distinctive Aryan trait. From the ancient Greeks to the Hindu upper classes or the modern European scientists.

    From the ancient Greeks to the Hindu upper classes or the modern European scientists.

    You are again conflating ‘caste’ with ‘Aryanness’ and ‘IQ’. If that were the case, the Indians who are in the US and are highly successful would all be tall, Greco-Persian-looking people from the North, not some dark-skinned little people from the South.

    From what I can tell, in India, there are high-caste people who are poor, and low-caste people who are rich.

    Around here, the simple minds assume that caste, Caucasian-ness, IQ, and wealth are all fully correlated among Indians. But my experience has revealed that it is not.

    It is not like ‘caste’ is tattooed on people’s foreheads.

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    • Replies: @Marcus D.
    I wrote about the great intelectual achievements from ancient India. They were made from people of upper castes, and for sure they had more Indo-European elements than people from lower castes. The Reich's studies proved that people from upper castes have more Indo-European DNA than people from lower castes.
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  120. Buddwing says:
    @Luke Lea
    Anonymous wrote: "What the typical naive ‘good white’ simply doesn’t know or understand about India – and the rest of the subcontinent for that matter – is that absolutely *every* aspect of life there, from the most minor trivial detail, to the highest level if decision making, is more or less governed by corruption, fraud, deceit, duplicity, dishonesty, cheating, double-dealing, falsehood etc etc to the nth possible degree."

    If I'm not mistaken the whole world, or at least much of it, used to be like that, including in places like England. Everybody was exploiting and being exploited by everybody else. It was man's fallen state.

    I have visited India several times, once for more than a month, visiting both north and south. I also have many Indian friends in the US. One of the things that is most evident to me is that it is exhausting to travel there, both physically and psychically. It takes a toll walking past beggars and having to deal with the pervasive disorder. This is why I wonder about the coming generation of Americans of Indian origin. They find it exhausting too. The US is filled with nice places. In India, it is hard to isolate yourself from the harsher realities of life there. So I wonder what they will make of the US. Indian-origin politicians in the US range from conservative to socialist and immigrants range from the Indian-grocery store owner to CEOs of major corporations.

    A lot of Indians returning for visits look around and sense that the corruption and cruelty of life there is just wrong and they are happy to be out of it for the most part. (Others go back and start businesses of their own.) A lot bring their parents and other family members over. Americans don’t really see this or think about it much, but the immigrants are impacting the US in a lot of ways that are far more integrated into the broad American society than other immigrant groups manage.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Indians are more widely distributed across America than most other recent immigrant groups. A lot of them came via the medical profession, which tends to distribute interns pretty broadly much like the NFL fairly randomly distributes college players.
    , @MG
    One less researched (or at least less remarked) aspect of recent immigrants from India, China and other Third World nation’s is how much different they are fundamentally from immigrants from, say, the early 20th C. I do both mean in racial terms, but in cultural terms. Furthermore, the new immigrants have one foot in (and loyalty to) the mother country. Sometimes I feel Americans are rather naive about these dynamics.
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  121. J.Ross says: • Website

    review old Western sages’ views of China and India, because they are suddenly relevant again.

    A lot of Ralph Townsend’s China book Ways That Are Dark is taken up in describing how old China hands built a huge and consistent knowledge base about the Middle Kingdom, only to be confidently ignored by contemporaries, who were as hypnotized by their Shangri-La as modern Tibet advocates are about that country. Similarly, given proper mental openness, our society would benefit tremendously from reading Catastrophic Failure, Stephen Coughlin’s explanation of the functional organization and logic of Islam as an aggressive totalitarian meta-nation. A lot of people will dismiss it without a hearing as unbelievable and racist.

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  122. Yan Shen says:
    @Duke of Qin
    One caveat I need to make to Steve's assertion is that the Indians are more verbally agile than the Chinese is that I think most people are mistaking behavior with aptitude. The Chinese are actually stronger than the Indians in verbal reasoning and significantly stronger in quantitative, all the sizeable empirical data points to this even with the most selected of Indian population samples. What sets the Indian's apart from the Chinese is actually their loquaciousness, their love of hearing themselves talk, their extroversion, and their social fearlessness.

    The Indians are part of what can be accurately described as the Chutzpahsphere that stretches from Greece at the West and India in the East. It is the urheimat of what Steve's readers will recognize as the gold chain wearing men set with ground zero being the Levant. They are societies that produce people like Shmuely Boteach and Baba Ramdev far in abundance of what is expected. The Chinese, like all Northeastern Eurasians, are socially timid; shy and uncomfortable in unfamiliar social settings, and generally unwilling to stick their necks out. This is basically our biggest weakness and Indians' biggest advantage in open social interactions unguarded by cohesive ethnic gatekeeping, i.e. modern liberal multicultural societies. The elite Indians will naturally win out because they are more aggressive, aka "team players" and "management material".

    Unfortunately this doesn't do Indians in India much good because when the entire society is structured so that social extroversion is so heavily favoured, where everyone is to a degree an adept bullshitter, then you end up with the people who are supremely full of shit inevitably rising to the top.

    Unfortunately this doesn’t do Indians in India much good because when the entire society is structured so that social extroversion is so heavily favoured, where everyone is to a degree an adept bullshitter, then you end up with the people who are supremely full of shit inevitably rising to the top.

    Well I’m assuming you don’t literally mean that these people are full of shit, hahaha…

    Not convinced about your assertions regarding Chinese verbal vs upper-caste Indian verbal, but IIRC you cited some California high school data sets a while back to argue this. I’m toeing the conventional HBD line here. See for instance the point I also made in my math/verbal split article about how Chinese/Koreans combined make up almost 65% of recent USAMO qualifiers but South Asians dominate the Spelling Bee.

    Regarding bullshitting, please see my point about Dunning-Kruger and the East Asian exception. If Americans have a stereotype of Indians being bullshitters, it’s fair to say that East Asians tend to perceive most non-East Asian ethnic groups as embodying that stereotype somewhat.

    A good American example would be that of Tesla, i.e. their recent woes and the company’s general history of over-promising and under-delivering, in contrast to the East Asian tendency to under-promise but over-deliver.

    In a decade or two or whenever electric cars gain mainstream traction and some Chinese company like BYD or whoever else dominates the market, I’m sure well get the same American historical revisionism about cheating/copying/whatever…

    http://money.cnn.com/2018/04/04/technology/tesla-elon-musk/index.html

    https://mashable.com/2017/10/03/tesla-model-3-production-woes-analysis/#qDKaEl6Wwmqk

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    • Replies: @Jack D
    Maybe it will turn out differently because the Chinese government support for Chinese car makers and the fact that China is now the world's biggest car market will tip the balance, but the one thing that Tesla has shown (by its bad example) is that in order to make good electric cars, you first have to be able to make good cars. In the end the power plant is a relatively small part of a car - you can get a crate engine for under $2,000 - the other $15k and up that you spend on a car are for things that have nothing to do with the motor.

    Neither BYD nor any other Chinese car maker have shown that they know how to design and build good cars.
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  123. @Anonym
    The US ruling class used to be the same ethnicity as the rest of the population. That is much less true now.

    I am not sure exactly how your comment relates to mine. India's IQ of 82 vs China's of 100 (or thereabouts) is massive and to me, the primary reason why China has the advantage there. "The Gap" is higher there than the white/black averages in the USA. Of course that is going to have a major impact on relative ability of the countries.

    To your point though, China was ruled for hundreds of years in recent memory, e.g. 1644 to 1912 by the Manchu people. That is an ethnic group of only 10 million people. I know very little about the Manchu other than that they ruled China for a long time. Maybe someone else can chip in. I thought "How the hell can one ethnic group rule so many people!?" when I was much younger. Little did I know...

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qing_dynasty
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchu_people

    The Manchu are one of those enigmatic Altaic people, who like their Hun, Mongol and Turkic cousins, are known for conquering the shit out of other people and little else. There have been some scholars, such as Michael Hart, who claim that it is due to higher IQ, but I’ve never seen any evidence that they’re smarter than the Chinese, other than being good at war. In fact, both times that China fell to the Altaics, they were at a low point. During the time of Genghis Khan they were already divided into northern and southern kingdoms. And the Ming had already lost control of the country in a bitter civil war when the Manchu invaded (one faction more or less invited them to invade).

    Nonetheless, the Altaic record of conquest is impressive. In fact, at one point during the 1700’s, more than half of the world’s population was under Altaic control (the Manchus in China, the Moghuls in India, and the Ottoman Empire in the Middle East and Eastern Europe).

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  124. @Mike1
    India is almost incomprehensibly chaotic and poorly run. As a people they seem clueless about what India is like. I've talked to several Indians who claim that India is physically the same as the West. They seem to be genuinely unaware that a garbage fire outside a mansion with pigs rooting through it is not something you see in Beverly Hills.
    India has zero chance of replicating China. They have almost certainly reached the limits of selling their people with cognitive talent to the West. This is their only real industry. The people getting exported from India now are not smarter than Western native populations: their sole talent is being willing to work very long hours.
    The Indian banking system is clearly nearing collapse. Control fraud is a way of life in India and banking systems rely on some honesty in their workforce.

    All spot on. Indians’ most salient trait is an utter lack of shame or self-awareness.

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  125. @Buddwing
    I have visited India several times, once for more than a month, visiting both north and south. I also have many Indian friends in the US. One of the things that is most evident to me is that it is exhausting to travel there, both physically and psychically. It takes a toll walking past beggars and having to deal with the pervasive disorder. This is why I wonder about the coming generation of Americans of Indian origin. They find it exhausting too. The US is filled with nice places. In India, it is hard to isolate yourself from the harsher realities of life there. So I wonder what they will make of the US. Indian-origin politicians in the US range from conservative to socialist and immigrants range from the Indian-grocery store owner to CEOs of major corporations.

    A lot of Indians returning for visits look around and sense that the corruption and cruelty of life there is just wrong and they are happy to be out of it for the most part. (Others go back and start businesses of their own.) A lot bring their parents and other family members over. Americans don't really see this or think about it much, but the immigrants are impacting the US in a lot of ways that are far more integrated into the broad American society than other immigrant groups manage.

    Indians are more widely distributed across America than most other recent immigrant groups. A lot of them came via the medical profession, which tends to distribute interns pretty broadly much like the NFL fairly randomly distributes college players.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Buddwing
    Back in 2010, Time published an article on Indians in NJ:

    After the law passed, when I was a kid, a few engineers and doctors from Gujarat moved to Edison because of its proximity to AT&T, good schools and reasonably priced, if slightly deteriorating, post–WW II housing. For a while, we assumed all Indians were geniuses. Then, in the 1980s, the doctors and engineers brought over their merchant cousins, and we were no longer so sure about the genius thing. In the 1990s, the not-as-brilliant merchants brought their even-less-bright cousins, and we started to understand why India is so damn poor.
     
    http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1999416,00.html
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  126. Anonym says:
    @Yan Shen

    Granted, there’s little hostile hysteria over China the way the Establishment is currently freaking out over the modest challenge posed by Russia, with only one-ninth of China’s population. But there’s not much enthusiasm for China, either.
     
    Well didn't uh some guy named Donald Trump just decide to impose $50 billion worth of tariffs on over 1,300 Chinese exports?

    http://money.cnn.com/2018/04/03/news/economy/us-tariffs-china/index.html

    Also, I seem to remember FBI director Christopher Wray recently freaking out over the Chinese as well.

    https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2018/02/15/fbi-director-testifies-chinese-students-and-intelligence-threats


    So one of the things we’re trying to do is view the China threat as not just a whole-of-government threat but a whole-of-society threat on their end, and I think it’s going to take a whole-of-society response by us.

     

    Now I don't know what a whole of society response entails, but quite frankly that kind of tone worries me as a Chinese American. And let's not forget Congress basically pressuring AT&T, Verizon, and Best Buy into dropping Huawei phones as well. I see clear signs of Sinophobia being on the rise in this country and quite frankly it worries me.

    For example, Chinese higher education isn’t yet competitive on the world stage, but China appears to be doing a decent job of educating the masses in the basics.
     
    Not quite. Yes, Chinese universities are still in a relatively nascent state of ascent. But, as I pointed out in my article on the math/verbal split, in certain quantitative areas Chinese universities are already near or at the fore.

    http://www.unz.com/article/iq-or-the-mathverbal-split/


    Based on the number of papers in the top 10% of citations, East Asian universities clearly excel at mathematics and computer science and physical sciences and engineering relative to the other three categories. For the time period of 2012-2015 and ranked by total number of top 10% papers based on citation rate, East Asia had 5 of the top 10 universities in physical sciences and engineering and 8 out of the top 10 universities in mathematics and computer science.

    By contrast when looking at total top 10% papers in the field of biomedical and health sciences, the highest ranked East Asian university was Shanghai Jiao Tong at 48th. For life and earth sciences, the highest ranked East Asian university was Zhejiang at 20th. And in social sciences and humanities, the top rated East Asian university was National University of Singapore at a fairly low 80th place.
     

    US News Global for instance, also ranks Tsinghua as the #1 computer science and #1 engineering school worldwide as well. In the same manner that notions of aggregate IQ tend to be somewhat misleading when it comes to understanding East Asian academic/career orientations, aggregate university performance across all disciplines leads to the same skewed picture...

    Now I don’t know what a whole of society response entails, but quite frankly that kind of tone worries me as a Chinese American

    Why are there no “American Chinese”? Or “White Chinese”? There were in Taiwan but what happened to them?

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    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    Its called Hong Kong.

    http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/2108829/it-now-time-whites-hong-kong-be-considered-ethnic-minority#comments

    http://www.scmp.com/comment/insight-opinion/article/2106672/cantonese-speaking-ethnic-chinese-arent-only-ones-who

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  127. Jack D says:
    @anon
    The Chinese often tout their multi-millenia contiguous history as a single civilization, and the claim that this makes them the "oldest" such civilization. To what extent is this true or myth?

    Yes and no. Chinese imperial dynasties were often not even Chinese (any more than the British royal dynasty is British). What tended to happen was that Chinese culture is so big (it is really the “Rome” of Asia) that it would always swallow the conqueror’s culture without a trace . Chinese Confucian culture has even swallowed Communism – The “Chinese Communist Party” is more Chinese that it is Communist.

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    • Replies: @Johann Ricke

    Chinese Confucian culture has even swallowed Communism – The “Chinese Communist Party” is more Chinese that it is Communist.
     
    In many ways, absolute monarchy isn't incompatible with Marxism-Leninism. In the first case, the people hand over the fruits of their labor to an unaccountable dictator. In the other ...
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  128. Jack D says:
    @Yan Shen

    Unfortunately this doesn’t do Indians in India much good because when the entire society is structured so that social extroversion is so heavily favoured, where everyone is to a degree an adept bullshitter, then you end up with the people who are supremely full of shit inevitably rising to the top.
     
    Well I'm assuming you don't literally mean that these people are full of shit, hahaha...

    Not convinced about your assertions regarding Chinese verbal vs upper-caste Indian verbal, but IIRC you cited some California high school data sets a while back to argue this. I'm toeing the conventional HBD line here. See for instance the point I also made in my math/verbal split article about how Chinese/Koreans combined make up almost 65% of recent USAMO qualifiers but South Asians dominate the Spelling Bee.

    Regarding bullshitting, please see my point about Dunning-Kruger and the East Asian exception. If Americans have a stereotype of Indians being bullshitters, it's fair to say that East Asians tend to perceive most non-East Asian ethnic groups as embodying that stereotype somewhat.

    A good American example would be that of Tesla, i.e. their recent woes and the company's general history of over-promising and under-delivering, in contrast to the East Asian tendency to under-promise but over-deliver.

    In a decade or two or whenever electric cars gain mainstream traction and some Chinese company like BYD or whoever else dominates the market, I'm sure well get the same American historical revisionism about cheating/copying/whatever...

    http://money.cnn.com/2018/04/04/technology/tesla-elon-musk/index.html
    https://mashable.com/2017/10/03/tesla-model-3-production-woes-analysis/#qDKaEl6Wwmqk

    Maybe it will turn out differently because the Chinese government support for Chinese car makers and the fact that China is now the world’s biggest car market will tip the balance, but the one thing that Tesla has shown (by its bad example) is that in order to make good electric cars, you first have to be able to make good cars. In the end the power plant is a relatively small part of a car – you can get a crate engine for under $2,000 – the other $15k and up that you spend on a car are for things that have nothing to do with the motor.

    Neither BYD nor any other Chinese car maker have shown that they know how to design and build good cars.

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    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    I thought Telsas were quite nice. Their issue was fundamentally they seem to have tried a variety of ill-thought, expensive efforts while also attempting to learn how to build cars - something akin to enormous and insane project creep: attempting the fully automated factory at the same time as designing vehicles, for example.

    Had they promised less, I think it would have worked out fine for them.
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  129. @Anonym
    Now I don’t know what a whole of society response entails, but quite frankly that kind of tone worries me as a Chinese American

    Why are there no "American Chinese"? Or "White Chinese"? There were in Taiwan but what happened to them?
    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonym
    Its called Hong Kong.

    You want a tiny Island with a tiny population? Here, have Hawaii. Oh wait, you already do.
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  130. MG says:
    @Buddwing
    I have visited India several times, once for more than a month, visiting both north and south. I also have many Indian friends in the US. One of the things that is most evident to me is that it is exhausting to travel there, both physically and psychically. It takes a toll walking past beggars and having to deal with the pervasive disorder. This is why I wonder about the coming generation of Americans of Indian origin. They find it exhausting too. The US is filled with nice places. In India, it is hard to isolate yourself from the harsher realities of life there. So I wonder what they will make of the US. Indian-origin politicians in the US range from conservative to socialist and immigrants range from the Indian-grocery store owner to CEOs of major corporations.

    A lot of Indians returning for visits look around and sense that the corruption and cruelty of life there is just wrong and they are happy to be out of it for the most part. (Others go back and start businesses of their own.) A lot bring their parents and other family members over. Americans don't really see this or think about it much, but the immigrants are impacting the US in a lot of ways that are far more integrated into the broad American society than other immigrant groups manage.

    One less researched (or at least less remarked) aspect of recent immigrants from India, China and other Third World nation’s is how much different they are fundamentally from immigrants from, say, the early 20th C. I do both mean in racial terms, but in cultural terms. Furthermore, the new immigrants have one foot in (and loyalty to) the mother country. Sometimes I feel Americans are rather naive about these dynamics.

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  131. @Jack D
    Maybe it will turn out differently because the Chinese government support for Chinese car makers and the fact that China is now the world's biggest car market will tip the balance, but the one thing that Tesla has shown (by its bad example) is that in order to make good electric cars, you first have to be able to make good cars. In the end the power plant is a relatively small part of a car - you can get a crate engine for under $2,000 - the other $15k and up that you spend on a car are for things that have nothing to do with the motor.

    Neither BYD nor any other Chinese car maker have shown that they know how to design and build good cars.

    I thought Telsas were quite nice. Their issue was fundamentally they seem to have tried a variety of ill-thought, expensive efforts while also attempting to learn how to build cars – something akin to enormous and insane project creep: attempting the fully automated factory at the same time as designing vehicles, for example.

    Had they promised less, I think it would have worked out fine for them.

    Read More
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  132. @Dieter Kief

    I feel that true heirs to Nietzsche are geneticists who would, perhaps unwittingly in some decades, bring out a genetic caste based society that Nietzsche would admire.
     
    Could well be. Such ideas are structurally very close to Nietzsche's superman-reveries, that' for sure.

    The CIA (!) once supported the early postmodernist movement, because the postmodernists actively fought against left wing totalitarianism in post war France, and strange as it might sound: I give them credit, that they managed to win this fight.

    The last of the terribly authoritarian figures left over in France today is Jean-Luc Mélenchon from the leftwing Socialists - and his influence is shrinking every day. Thank god, if you ask me. (He even has an intellectual supporter: Foucault disciple and gay-activist Didier Eribon... - you would not want to say a lot of bad things about him, except maybe: He is not the brightest lad that there is in France right now.

    Nietzsche is a refreshingly good writer at times. And that's a quality, of course. And Nietzsche has discovered that even the best arguments can be a cover up of pretty dark sentiments - and that is something, that every psychologist who is alive and kickin' should be very interested in.

    (There is a direct line from Moliére and Shakespeare - via Goethe - Schopenhauer and Nietzsche to Freud and Jung. - Peterson digs this (at least a lot of this stuff), and of course: That's the core of psychology: The human capacity (and drive even: That's Schopenhauer!) for/ to (self-)deception.

    And then there is something else in Peterson, that I love a lot about him - and I still don't know really, where that comes from: He knows how to fight (Pinker seems to shy away from that insight, and rather die in all his glorious and brilliant beauty, which he does incorporate, no doubt about that...and hopefully - not too much of envy on the side of yours truly either....).
    Is that the Christian core of Peterson : His alertness and his willingness to fight? Is he a part-scientist/ part modern knight?
    The idea, that it needs courage (and not only status...) to speak the truth, seems to have disappeared in the corridors of big media, big government and big science. And that makes the exceptions (Peterson, Paglia, Douglas & Charles Murray, Sam Harris, Jonathan Haidt even, here and there,...Steve Sailer, James Thompson, Heiner Rindermann, Anatoly Karlin, Thilo Sarrazin, so interesting!

    My “agree” button isn’t working, but instead I’ll put my humble thanks here.

    The quality of comments here is a great credit to the contributions of the hosts and authors here at Unz’s.

    I’ll be more than a little heartbroken if Mr. Unz is forced to clamp down or otherwise memoryhole the comments.

    Some truly bright gems hiding here…
    Brighter than a lot of paid content that #Fakenews slops out for us to swill.

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  133. Anonym says:
    @Daniel Chieh
    Its called Hong Kong.

    http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/2108829/it-now-time-whites-hong-kong-be-considered-ethnic-minority#comments

    http://www.scmp.com/comment/insight-opinion/article/2106672/cantonese-speaking-ethnic-chinese-arent-only-ones-who

    Its called Hong Kong.

    You want a tiny Island with a tiny population? Here, have Hawaii. Oh wait, you already do.

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    • LOL: Autochthon
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    Doesn't change the fundamental to it; as economic situations change, so do other things. Heck, during the Tang, which is considered a golden age in many ways, China is widely cosmopolitan and even developed an early concept of diversity right up until the Turks tried to kill everyone else to take over. They failed, but the effective result of killing everyone did happen.
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  134. theMann says:

    China and India both have a future governed by one overriding fact:

    Sex selective abortion has caused a massive surplus of males over females. This is both country’s future, and it is completely destabilizing.

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    • Replies: @MBlanc46
    Men without hope of access to women are social TNT. Sooner or later they will explode.
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  135. Yan Shen says:
    @Bob who would have you choose
    YS says "that kind of tone worries me as a Chinese American".

    I reply choose to be an American of Chinese descent or GTFO.

    Is there any difference between Chinese American and American of Chinese descent? Now maybe I’m just crazy, but in mind those two terms seem to be rather synonymous…

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  136. @Anonym
    Its called Hong Kong.

    You want a tiny Island with a tiny population? Here, have Hawaii. Oh wait, you already do.

    Doesn’t change the fundamental to it; as economic situations change, so do other things. Heck, during the Tang, which is considered a golden age in many ways, China is widely cosmopolitan and even developed an early concept of diversity right up until the Turks tried to kill everyone else to take over. They failed, but the effective result of killing everyone did happen.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Coag
    What is this “early concept of diversity” you speak of? Maybe you’re confusing sullen medieval Han warlord maniacs with bright eyed latter day Scandinavian refugee camp volunteers.

    Tang Emperor Wuzong was convinced by Taoist mystics to instigate a series of pogroms against Christianity and Zoroastrianism, and devastated Buddhism by expropriating the Buddhist temples’ financial assets.

    Shortly thereafter Huang Chao, who failed the Imperial civil service exam, discharged his frustration by whipping up a massacre of all foreigners in Canton—Zoroastrians, Jews, Syriac Christians, and Muslims. Which by the way is one of many murderous civil disturbances set off throughout the history of Imperial China by, horribly yet amusingly enough, people who failed that notorious exam.
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  137. @MG
    The Chinese may have a higher opinion of labor than Indians, but the Chinese aren’t exactly known for quality workmanship. High quality mechanical work has been the preserve of the white Western nations and the Japanese.

    China is climbing the value chain. Give it time.

    Japan was once known as a manufacturer of cheap, shoddy, goods.

    There is an incident in John Gunther’s Inside Asia (written a few years before the war) where, as a joke, he considered presenting a Japanese minister with a Japanese-made one dollar wristwatch that he had bought in the US. Luckily, he ran the plan past his local guide, who warned him that, if he did this, the man who introduced Gunther to the minister would have to commit suicide because of the embarrassment his guest had caused.

    BTW, in 19th century Britain, Germany also had a reputation for making shoddy goods that undercut British manufacturers. That is why Parliament passed the Merchandise Mark Act mandating “Made in Germany” labels. Within a few years, of course, these had become a mark of good quality.

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    • Replies: @MG
    Europe was once very filthy, too, with abysmal civic cleanliness.

    I have my doubt about China or India - great manufacturing and processes is as much about a mindset & discipline as it is about technology know how. Neither of these cultures display these as strengths.
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  138. The Indian moviegoing masses seem to share the pro-Aryan prejudices of the old Northern European philosophers, with most Bollywood stars drawn from the fairer and taller Northern Indians with more steppe descent.

    Steve, you are certainly not aware of this and most Chinese are probably ignorant of this too, but the Chinese entertainment industry does discriminate against “Southern” Chinese. By “Southern” I mean explicitly the extreme south coastal provinces of Guangdong and Fujian. What is interesting is that the discrimination while quantifiable seems to be entirely directed against women and doesn’t seem to impact men or perhaps not to anywhere near a significant degree so no one seems to care or even recognize it. I actually compiled a list of major Chinese TV shows within the last few years featuring young “starlets” in lead and supporting roles and basically out of the hundred or so actresses I looked at, I couldn’t find one of Guangdong or Fujian ancestry. The few mainland TV productions that did feature actresses from these two provinces were always 40+ and playing the old lady roles, and mainly from Hong Kong. This is surprising because these are two of China’s wealthiest provinces and Guangdong at least is one of China’s most populous so you would expect more actresses coming from there but no.

    The young actresses came from practically every other provinces, with even Yunnan represented. The areas of China that were overrepresented are basically divided into three regions: the North China heartland of Shanxi, Hebei, Shandong (Shandong is especially overrepresented) and adjacent Dongbei (Again heavily overrepresented and since these populations are descended from 19th century Shandong emigres), the Jiangnan region covering Jiangsu and Zhejiang, and finally Sichuan.

    Basically the areas over-represented fit into long held Chinese regional stereotypes. Northern beauties are tall and fair, Jiangnan cuties are feminine and cultured, Sichuan hotties are extra “spicey”. Guangdong women, and to a lesser degree Fujian are generally stereotyped in China as short, dark, and worst of all shrewish. What hits them worse than their physical shortcomings is the stereotype of them as unpleasant and demanding women prone to henpeckery.

    Now while these stereotypes are just stereotypes, there is actually a genetic component. The Chinese of North and Central China are extremely genetically homogenous. Across the entire North China plain, the Fst values barely even touch 0.0001 and central to North it’s only around 0.0005 to 0.001. The primary outliers to this are hilly and mountainous Guangdong and Fujian which are 0.003 to 0.0015 diverged from North China. The Northern Han are basically a composite population of ancient Northerneastern Eurasian hunter gatherers and a “Sinitic” component originating from where I theorize was the Himalayan headwaters of the yellow river some 5-6 kya that basically demographically obliterated them like Yamnaya steppe nomads did to the European hunter gatherers and Anatolian farmers, but to an even more complete degree. Europeans are generally 20% steppe ancestry max, while the the Northern Han are 85% Sinitic and 15% Northeastern hunter gatherer. The central Chinese are roughly 90% Northern Han and 10% Southern-Central Chinese native which is basically the Tai-Kidai peoples that were also demographically overwhelmed and pushed South to populate what is now Southeast Asia. The Han Chinese of Guangdong are basically the most divergent from the ancestral population as they are on average about 70% Northern Han and almost 30% Tai-Kadai native. Amusingly enough, the population of Guangdong seems to be the inverse of the neighboring Vietnamese who are 30% Northern Han ancestry and are 70% Tai-Kadai.

    One more odd detail I wanted to mention is that I suspect it is the sinitic ancestry component that drives selection for height among East Asian populations. The South Koreans are the tallest for now in the far east but they have stopped growing. Their population structure is basically 50/50 split between ancestral Northeastern hunter gatherer and the Sinitic component. The Japanese are basically 85/10/5 for northeastern hunter gatherer, sinitic, and south-central China Tai-Kadai ancestry and are on average 3 centimeters shorter than the South Koreans. The ancient northeastern hunter gatherer seems to select for short and stocky like the Mongolians and other current Siberian populations. The North Koreans, before the division were taller than the South Koreans and their ancestry is almost certainly even more shifted towards to the sinitic component than their Southern counterparts. The Chinese of the North China plain are now only slightly shorter than the South Koreans and more importantly, still growing. The most developed parts of Southern Han ancestry seems to top out similar to Japan (see Hong Kong/Singapore/Taiwan) but the Han of the North have historically been significantly taller, on average 5-6 centimeters.

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    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    So, are there Guangdong movie producers with names like Harb Won-Ton who are notorious for hitting on all the non-Guangdong actresses?
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  139. @Duke of Qin

    The Indian moviegoing masses seem to share the pro-Aryan prejudices of the old Northern European philosophers, with most Bollywood stars drawn from the fairer and taller Northern Indians with more steppe descent.

     

    Steve, you are certainly not aware of this and most Chinese are probably ignorant of this too, but the Chinese entertainment industry does discriminate against "Southern" Chinese. By "Southern" I mean explicitly the extreme south coastal provinces of Guangdong and Fujian. What is interesting is that the discrimination while quantifiable seems to be entirely directed against women and doesn't seem to impact men or perhaps not to anywhere near a significant degree so no one seems to care or even recognize it. I actually compiled a list of major Chinese TV shows within the last few years featuring young "starlets" in lead and supporting roles and basically out of the hundred or so actresses I looked at, I couldn't find one of Guangdong or Fujian ancestry. The few mainland TV productions that did feature actresses from these two provinces were always 40+ and playing the old lady roles, and mainly from Hong Kong. This is surprising because these are two of China's wealthiest provinces and Guangdong at least is one of China's most populous so you would expect more actresses coming from there but no.

    The young actresses came from practically every other provinces, with even Yunnan represented. The areas of China that were overrepresented are basically divided into three regions: the North China heartland of Shanxi, Hebei, Shandong (Shandong is especially overrepresented) and adjacent Dongbei (Again heavily overrepresented and since these populations are descended from 19th century Shandong emigres), the Jiangnan region covering Jiangsu and Zhejiang, and finally Sichuan.

    Basically the areas over-represented fit into long held Chinese regional stereotypes. Northern beauties are tall and fair, Jiangnan cuties are feminine and cultured, Sichuan hotties are extra "spicey". Guangdong women, and to a lesser degree Fujian are generally stereotyped in China as short, dark, and worst of all shrewish. What hits them worse than their physical shortcomings is the stereotype of them as unpleasant and demanding women prone to henpeckery.

    Now while these stereotypes are just stereotypes, there is actually a genetic component. The Chinese of North and Central China are extremely genetically homogenous. Across the entire North China plain, the Fst values barely even touch 0.0001 and central to North it's only around 0.0005 to 0.001. The primary outliers to this are hilly and mountainous Guangdong and Fujian which are 0.003 to 0.0015 diverged from North China. The Northern Han are basically a composite population of ancient Northerneastern Eurasian hunter gatherers and a "Sinitic" component originating from where I theorize was the Himalayan headwaters of the yellow river some 5-6 kya that basically demographically obliterated them like Yamnaya steppe nomads did to the European hunter gatherers and Anatolian farmers, but to an even more complete degree. Europeans are generally 20% steppe ancestry max, while the the Northern Han are 85% Sinitic and 15% Northeastern hunter gatherer. The central Chinese are roughly 90% Northern Han and 10% Southern-Central Chinese native which is basically the Tai-Kidai peoples that were also demographically overwhelmed and pushed South to populate what is now Southeast Asia. The Han Chinese of Guangdong are basically the most divergent from the ancestral population as they are on average about 70% Northern Han and almost 30% Tai-Kadai native. Amusingly enough, the population of Guangdong seems to be the inverse of the neighboring Vietnamese who are 30% Northern Han ancestry and are 70% Tai-Kadai.

    One more odd detail I wanted to mention is that I suspect it is the sinitic ancestry component that drives selection for height among East Asian populations. The South Koreans are the tallest for now in the far east but they have stopped growing. Their population structure is basically 50/50 split between ancestral Northeastern hunter gatherer and the Sinitic component. The Japanese are basically 85/10/5 for northeastern hunter gatherer, sinitic, and south-central China Tai-Kadai ancestry and are on average 3 centimeters shorter than the South Koreans. The ancient northeastern hunter gatherer seems to select for short and stocky like the Mongolians and other current Siberian populations. The North Koreans, before the division were taller than the South Koreans and their ancestry is almost certainly even more shifted towards to the sinitic component than their Southern counterparts. The Chinese of the North China plain are now only slightly shorter than the South Koreans and more importantly, still growing. The most developed parts of Southern Han ancestry seems to top out similar to Japan (see Hong Kong/Singapore/Taiwan) but the Han of the North have historically been significantly taller, on average 5-6 centimeters.

    So, are there Guangdong movie producers with names like Harb Won-Ton who are notorious for hitting on all the non-Guangdong actresses?

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    • Replies: @Duke of Qin
    Can't think of anyone in particular, as I said I doubt most Chinese would even recognize the discrimination going on because Chinese don't generally think in that direction. Jackie Chan is a notorious womanizer, but his parents are I believe Northern refugees themselves from the Chinese civil war so he doesn't count as a Guangdong native.
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  140. Buddwing says:
    @Steve Sailer
    Indians are more widely distributed across America than most other recent immigrant groups. A lot of them came via the medical profession, which tends to distribute interns pretty broadly much like the NFL fairly randomly distributes college players.

    Back in 2010, Time published an article on Indians in NJ:

    After the law passed, when I was a kid, a few engineers and doctors from Gujarat moved to Edison because of its proximity to AT&T, good schools and reasonably priced, if slightly deteriorating, post–WW II housing. For a while, we assumed all Indians were geniuses. Then, in the 1980s, the doctors and engineers brought over their merchant cousins, and we were no longer so sure about the genius thing. In the 1990s, the not-as-brilliant merchants brought their even-less-bright cousins, and we started to understand why India is so damn poor.

    http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1999416,00.html

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    • Replies: @res
    That tidbit was accompanied by this at the end of the column:

    TIME responds: We sincerely regret that any of our readers were upset by this humor column of Joel Stein's. It was in no way intended to cause offense.

    Joel Stein responds: I truly feel stomach-sick that I hurt so many people. I was trying to explain how, as someone who believes that immigration has enriched American life and my hometown in particular, I was shocked that I could feel a tiny bit uncomfortable with my changing town when I went to visit it. If we could understand that reaction, we'd be better equipped to debate people on the other side of the immigration issue.
     
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  141. DB Cooper says:
    @Ali Choudhury
    Excellent column. At the end of the day there will be one winner of the 21st century, the authoritarian Chinese which will be a tremendous shame.

    This is one of the blind spots Indian have in regards to China. India is much more authoritarian than China. One way to gauge how authoritarian a society is is to observe how common people react to the law enforcement. Do they see them as part of a civic society that serves them or see them as a tool used by the government to control them? India is definitely the later. In India people won’t even go to the police even if they get robbed because they would be asking for more trouble if they did. In India the police is seen by the public as a tool by the government to soften up the crowd if a VIP visit town. India is a much more controlling society. Even getting a telephone sim card has to submit a lot of paperwork. In China at least some years ago you can get a telephone sim card anonymously anywhere.

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    • Replies: @J.Ross
    Is that more authoritarian or is that the result of the extra work Indian authorities have to do? Before Communism the Chinese had both high homogeneity and a huge cultural emphasis on what we could call citizenship. India has always been multiple nations lacking the focus to secede. A Chinese cop has only to start talking and people will either cooperate or at least recognize that he is a cop. In India, you start all over with each new house. India, like Mexico, has a lot of governmental promises and over-reaching laws which are probably not consistently observed, but they probably think they need those in order to control as much as possible.
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  142. DB Cooper says:
    @Marcus D.

    And the Indians tend to be more verbally agile than the Chinese and more adept at the kind of high-level abstract thinking required by modern computer science, law, and soft major academia. Thousands of years of Brahmin speculations didn’t do much for India’s prosperity, but somehow have prepared Indians to make fortunes in 21st-century America.

     

    Yes, the Indian upper classes were interested in abstractions for it's own sake. Their math contributions are impressive. They developed the zero concept, and of course our numeric system. All of these, without the typical utilitarian East Asian mindset. So, with their numeric system they were able to develop very sophysticated mathematics. And of course, many of the contributions from their european cousins, were only possible with those numbers. Can someone imagine, how is it difficult to do maths with roman numbers ?

    The interest in knowledge for it's own sake is a very distinctive Aryan trait. From the ancient Greeks to the Hindu upper classes or the modern European scientists.

    The number system we use nowadays are from the Arabs, not Indian.

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    • Replies: @MG
    No, the Arabs got it from the Indians.
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  143. @Steve Sailer
    So, are there Guangdong movie producers with names like Harb Won-Ton who are notorious for hitting on all the non-Guangdong actresses?

    Can’t think of anyone in particular, as I said I doubt most Chinese would even recognize the discrimination going on because Chinese don’t generally think in that direction. Jackie Chan is a notorious womanizer, but his parents are I believe Northern refugees themselves from the Chinese civil war so he doesn’t count as a Guangdong native.

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  144. Coag says:
    @Daniel Chieh
    Doesn't change the fundamental to it; as economic situations change, so do other things. Heck, during the Tang, which is considered a golden age in many ways, China is widely cosmopolitan and even developed an early concept of diversity right up until the Turks tried to kill everyone else to take over. They failed, but the effective result of killing everyone did happen.

    What is this “early concept of diversity” you speak of? Maybe you’re confusing sullen medieval Han warlord maniacs with bright eyed latter day Scandinavian refugee camp volunteers.

    Tang Emperor Wuzong was convinced by Taoist mystics to instigate a series of pogroms against Christianity and Zoroastrianism, and devastated Buddhism by expropriating the Buddhist temples’ financial assets.

    Shortly thereafter Huang Chao, who failed the Imperial civil service exam, discharged his frustration by whipping up a massacre of all foreigners in Canton—Zoroastrians, Jews, Syriac Christians, and Muslims. Which by the way is one of many murderous civil disturbances set off throughout the history of Imperial China by, horribly yet amusingly enough, people who failed that notorious exam.

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    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    A civil disturbance made by a rebel killed by the government is not official policy.

    No, this:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turks_in_the_Tang_military#Emperor_Taizong_and_multiculturalism

    While mostly symbolic, the title of Heavenly Kaghan shows Taizong's open attitudes towards the existence of a multicultural and ethnically diverse Tang empire. Taizong was proud of his policies promoting ethnic equality, and was reported to have said that, "The emperors since ancient times have all appreciated the Chinese and depreciated the barbarians. Only I view them as equal. That is why they look upon me as their parent."

     

    How did you think that An Lushan got to accumulate his critical mass of co-ethnics for the rebellion? He wasn't a nobody, he held noble titles in the Chinese court, and was permitted to appoint himself as a general over his co-ethnics, remove Han from his circles, and was still shielded from criticism right up until he began his campaign.
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  145. peterike says:
    @Almost Missouri
    I think that childhood education in East Asia often involves delicate handwork tasks, e.g., origami in Japan, bead sorting in China, etc.

    Western, and particularly American, schools direct students to "keep their hands folded!" So unless the child grows up in a tradesman/craftsman household, of course he is going to be a manual incompetent.

    Western, and particularly American, schools direct students to “keep their hands folded!”

    I see you last visited a school sometime around 1935.

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  146. MG says: • Website
    @jimmyriddle
    China is climbing the value chain. Give it time.

    Japan was once known as a manufacturer of cheap, shoddy, goods.

    There is an incident in John Gunther's Inside Asia (written a few years before the war) where, as a joke, he considered presenting a Japanese minister with a Japanese-made one dollar wristwatch that he had bought in the US. Luckily, he ran the plan past his local guide, who warned him that, if he did this, the man who introduced Gunther to the minister would have to commit suicide because of the embarrassment his guest had caused.


    BTW, in 19th century Britain, Germany also had a reputation for making shoddy goods that undercut British manufacturers. That is why Parliament passed the Merchandise Mark Act mandating "Made in Germany" labels. Within a few years, of course, these had become a mark of good quality.

    Europe was once very filthy, too, with abysmal civic cleanliness.

    I have my doubt about China or India – great manufacturing and processes is as much about a mindset & discipline as it is about technology know how. Neither of these cultures display these as strengths.

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  147. PaceLaw says:

    “Yet in real life, the Chinese build things, such as bridges that don’t fall down . . .”

    Uh Steve, let’s pump the brakes on the romanticization of all things Chinese. Who knew that the Chinese make grievous errors as well? I guess they are human after all.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.businessinsider.com/china-bridge-collapses-2012-8

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    • Replies: @J.Ross
    The thing is that in India that bridge would never get built.
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  148. Anonymous[360] • Disclaimer says:
    @onetwothree
    This has probably been asked before, but when did takimag stop allowing comments? Did they ever say why?

    Yeah, they were usually bad, but that had more to do with Disqus, which is designed to highlight the worst comments.

    They posted this on March 29:

    http://takimag.com/article/gag_reflex/print#axzz5BfkGoydE

    The post is snarky and nonsensical, but it seems to be saying (1) they don’t like the antisemitic comments, (2) they will print comments received from readers in the form of email along the lines of what the Atlantic is doing, and (3) the comments may eventually return.

    I can’t imagine sending email comments. Be real. That’s the point where it’s not a comment and becomes a pitch for a piece I’d want to be paid for.

    I have run websites with comments where we have programmed our own webapps, and if you handle it that way and don’t outsource it to an outside service, you can really keep a lid on things. Ron is able to do this, I think, even though he seems to be building on top of WordPress. You have to not care about false positives, but, hey, it’s your website and nobody has a right to comment. Among the things that we did were IP address bans, banned word lists, and regular expression bans. The latter helped us stop everyone from exchanging email addresses and social media accounts, because you can construct a regular expression that takes care of things like spacing out letters or substitutions or other obfuscations (and yes, you get false positives). If you construct a shadow ban system (also called “Tachy goes to Coventry”), it works even better.

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  149. MG says:
    @DB Cooper
    The number system we use nowadays are from the Arabs, not Indian.

    No, the Arabs got it from the Indians.

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  150. @Jack D
    Yes and no. Chinese imperial dynasties were often not even Chinese (any more than the British royal dynasty is British). What tended to happen was that Chinese culture is so big (it is really the "Rome" of Asia) that it would always swallow the conqueror's culture without a trace . Chinese Confucian culture has even swallowed Communism - The "Chinese Communist Party" is more Chinese that it is Communist.

    Chinese Confucian culture has even swallowed Communism – The “Chinese Communist Party” is more Chinese that it is Communist.

    In many ways, absolute monarchy isn’t incompatible with Marxism-Leninism. In the first case, the people hand over the fruits of their labor to an unaccountable dictator. In the other …

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  151. Mr.Mister says:
    @Gary
    Have visited over 100 countries, including travelling extensively in India
    and China. India stands for I will Never Do It Again. Appalling poverty, blatant
    child abuse, smells, etc. with no one in charge. David Duke upon visiting
    India said it was the future of America, a bunch of impoverished mongrels living
    together and fighting each other.
    China was the consummate police state with shocking poverty, child abuse,
    smells (especially squat toilets), etc. When visiting a so-called model school in
    Shanghai, we saw school age children across the street doing heavy
    labor (pick and shovel). We asked why they weren't school. The answer:
    the children will NOT legal. They did not have permission to live
    in Shanghai and were not allowed to attend school. No pity or
    concern expressed by school officials. Most private and public
    non-tourist buildings had little or no heat even in freezing winter temperatures.
    Only the computer room was heated in most places.

    In China the model home in Beijing we were shown was a freezing filthy
    rat hole with much of its space devoted to storing coal.

    All of our Chinese tour guides (government employees) were
    openly hostile to westerners and blatantly critical of European
    culture. We did not experience this contempt in any other
    of the 100+ countries we visited.

    Wow…when did you visit China? Something like this wouldn’t surprise me in the 1990s, but today, you would not see this in Shanghai. Of course, poorer provinces in China, like Henan, are probably like this.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Gary
    January 1998 we visited China.
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  152. Mr.Mister says:
    @Daniel Chieh
    It is still strange, though. Typically right-leaning sites tend to be less eager to remove comments from what I've seen. It seems like a disappointing development.

    I suspect there was probably outside pressure that caused Taki to close their comments section. Whatever it was, it seems like the noose is slowly tightening…

    Read More
    • Replies: @TheBoom
    The ADL and SPLC are gaining significant power and any criticism of Jews is becoming grounds for banishment from mainstream culture and even becoming illegal if it includes BDS. I imagine Taki has dreams of growing advertising revenue and staying on Facebook. Those increasingly cannot be accomplished without approval from the Jews
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  153. J.Ross says: • Website
    @PaceLaw
    “Yet in real life, the Chinese build things, such as bridges that don’t fall down . . .”

    Uh Steve, let’s pump the brakes on the romanticization of all things Chinese. Who knew that the Chinese make grievous errors as well? I guess they are human after all.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.businessinsider.com/china-bridge-collapses-2012-8

    The thing is that in India that bridge would never get built.

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    • Agree: Escher
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  154. J.Ross says: • Website
    @DB Cooper
    This is one of the blind spots Indian have in regards to China. India is much more authoritarian than China. One way to gauge how authoritarian a society is is to observe how common people react to the law enforcement. Do they see them as part of a civic society that serves them or see them as a tool used by the government to control them? India is definitely the later. In India people won't even go to the police even if they get robbed because they would be asking for more trouble if they did. In India the police is seen by the public as a tool by the government to soften up the crowd if a VIP visit town. India is a much more controlling society. Even getting a telephone sim card has to submit a lot of paperwork. In China at least some years ago you can get a telephone sim card anonymously anywhere.

    Is that more authoritarian or is that the result of the extra work Indian authorities have to do? Before Communism the Chinese had both high homogeneity and a huge cultural emphasis on what we could call citizenship. India has always been multiple nations lacking the focus to secede. A Chinese cop has only to start talking and people will either cooperate or at least recognize that he is a cop. In India, you start all over with each new house. India, like Mexico, has a lot of governmental promises and over-reaching laws which are probably not consistently observed, but they probably think they need those in order to control as much as possible.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Duke of Qin
    The Chinese police are a bunch of lazy Barney Fifes, corrupt too, but mostly harmless and non-predatory. Their default activity is napping. What distinguishes them from police in India and the US is that they aren't on a power trip. The police in the US behave as if they were an occupying force and their training reflects this, i.e. everyone is treated as a potential threat and the number one priority is going home safely for the day. Their confrontational behavior towards civilians is self evident and running into an American cop in a bad mood is a quick way to end up in legal trouble. Despite China ostensibly being a Communist Police state, most Chinese people are not uneasy around the police and treat them with a degree of nonchalance. Basically most Chinese will act towards the police force as if they were regular other people and the police recognize this. The Chinese internet is full of public cell phone recorded videos of people confronting police in a manner that would have gotten them shot in the US and nothing happens. Irate female drivers assaulting traffic cops, insurance scammers "falling" down in front of cop cars or diving under the slightest taps to claim police brutality and hence a payout, I've even seen a video where idiots were arguing with a cop with a pistol drawn and he fired warning shots into the air. Basically aside from the rare instances where the Communist Party orders an ass kicking for political reasons, the Chinese cops in general are just not very threatening.

    The default state in India policing seems to be a form of anarcho-tyranny. The cops there are on power trips and actively dangerous for the civilian population and should be avoided. Like for example multiple uniformed officers robbing toll booths of money as a matter of course and assaulting the booth attendant because he didn't pay up. Rape victims who were raped once again while under police custody. Bicycles and stolen property conveniently turning up in police impound minutes after you paid their finders fee.
    , @DB Cooper
    Here is the difference. In China people like to see cops around on the street. It makes them feel safe. In India people are nervous if they see cops around especially those with long batons because it is not unheard of that you will get wrecked with no obvious reason other than they want to make an example out of you in order to 'soften up the crowd' for whatever reason.
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  155. DB Cooper says:
    @Duke of Qin
    One caveat I need to make to Steve's assertion is that the Indians are more verbally agile than the Chinese is that I think most people are mistaking behavior with aptitude. The Chinese are actually stronger than the Indians in verbal reasoning and significantly stronger in quantitative, all the sizeable empirical data points to this even with the most selected of Indian population samples. What sets the Indian's apart from the Chinese is actually their loquaciousness, their love of hearing themselves talk, their extroversion, and their social fearlessness.

    The Indians are part of what can be accurately described as the Chutzpahsphere that stretches from Greece at the West and India in the East. It is the urheimat of what Steve's readers will recognize as the gold chain wearing men set with ground zero being the Levant. They are societies that produce people like Shmuely Boteach and Baba Ramdev far in abundance of what is expected. The Chinese, like all Northeastern Eurasians, are socially timid; shy and uncomfortable in unfamiliar social settings, and generally unwilling to stick their necks out. This is basically our biggest weakness and Indians' biggest advantage in open social interactions unguarded by cohesive ethnic gatekeeping, i.e. modern liberal multicultural societies. The elite Indians will naturally win out because they are more aggressive, aka "team players" and "management material".

    Unfortunately this doesn't do Indians in India much good because when the entire society is structured so that social extroversion is so heavily favoured, where everyone is to a degree an adept bullshitter, then you end up with the people who are supremely full of shit inevitably rising to the top.

    This is one of the reasons Indian managers and CEOs are much more common than Chinese managers and CEOs in American companies because to be a manager or a CEO technical skills are secondary to bullshitting skills.

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  156. @J.Ross
    Is that more authoritarian or is that the result of the extra work Indian authorities have to do? Before Communism the Chinese had both high homogeneity and a huge cultural emphasis on what we could call citizenship. India has always been multiple nations lacking the focus to secede. A Chinese cop has only to start talking and people will either cooperate or at least recognize that he is a cop. In India, you start all over with each new house. India, like Mexico, has a lot of governmental promises and over-reaching laws which are probably not consistently observed, but they probably think they need those in order to control as much as possible.

    The Chinese police are a bunch of lazy Barney Fifes, corrupt too, but mostly harmless and non-predatory. Their default activity is napping. What distinguishes them from police in India and the US is that they aren’t on a power trip. The police in the US behave as if they were an occupying force and their training reflects this, i.e. everyone is treated as a potential threat and the number one priority is going home safely for the day. Their confrontational behavior towards civilians is self evident and running into an American cop in a bad mood is a quick way to end up in legal trouble. Despite China ostensibly being a Communist Police state, most Chinese people are not uneasy around the police and treat them with a degree of nonchalance. Basically most Chinese will act towards the police force as if they were regular other people and the police recognize this. The Chinese internet is full of public cell phone recorded videos of people confronting police in a manner that would have gotten them shot in the US and nothing happens. Irate female drivers assaulting traffic cops, insurance scammers “falling” down in front of cop cars or diving under the slightest taps to claim police brutality and hence a payout, I’ve even seen a video where idiots were arguing with a cop with a pistol drawn and he fired warning shots into the air. Basically aside from the rare instances where the Communist Party orders an ass kicking for political reasons, the Chinese cops in general are just not very threatening.

    The default state in India policing seems to be a form of anarcho-tyranny. The cops there are on power trips and actively dangerous for the civilian population and should be avoided. Like for example multiple uniformed officers robbing toll booths of money as a matter of course and assaulting the booth attendant because he didn’t pay up. Rape victims who were raped once again while under police custody. Bicycles and stolen property conveniently turning up in police impound minutes after you paid their finders fee.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    I like reading stories from China of massive brawls over golf course construction, like one recent one about 800 peasants fighting 300 bandits hired by local officials and golf course developers trying to steal the peasants' land. It doesn't sound like much of a police state, it sounds more like Oxford in 1250 AD with gown vs. town riots.
    , @DB Cooper
    I have also seen a video where a guy act out by lying down in the middle of a road spread eagle because he got a ticket from a traffic cop. If you try that in the state you would probably get rough up pretty bad by the police.
    , @J.Ross
    Right, Chinese are effectively self-policing whereas Indian authorities are like a foreign occupation constantly losing and re-establishing their place. The Indian layabout doesn't last and the Chinese Sardar gets pulled into the chief's office for a scene from the first act of Hot Fuzz and a reassignment to records.
    >TV said American cops are Dreddful
    Okay. That's not at all normal and is the result of a globalist drive to turn us into Brazil. I interact with cops all the time and have not encountered any power tripping. Thing is, besides the globalist plot, the federal government scheme to promise goodies like armor in exchange for adopting disastrous federal guidelines, etc, it's illustrative of the same point. Calm cops are almost definitely policing a peaceful, homogeneous area where folks generally do what they are told. On the other hand, having to go out there every day and know from experience that as soon as you try to help somebody he's going to start screaming at you or flat-out refuse to give any information ...
    , @TheBoom
    I tend to agree with your assessment of the Chinese police and the public's perception of them based on my limited view from living there for a year. I found Chinese to be more concerned with government spies in schools and businesses than with the police. Everyone seemed to feel that it is safer to assume spies are there.

    Do you know to what degree Chinese are concerned with the amped up censorship under their new ruler for life?
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  157. DB Cooper says:
    @J.Ross
    Is that more authoritarian or is that the result of the extra work Indian authorities have to do? Before Communism the Chinese had both high homogeneity and a huge cultural emphasis on what we could call citizenship. India has always been multiple nations lacking the focus to secede. A Chinese cop has only to start talking and people will either cooperate or at least recognize that he is a cop. In India, you start all over with each new house. India, like Mexico, has a lot of governmental promises and over-reaching laws which are probably not consistently observed, but they probably think they need those in order to control as much as possible.

    Here is the difference. In China people like to see cops around on the street. It makes them feel safe. In India people are nervous if they see cops around especially those with long batons because it is not unheard of that you will get wrecked with no obvious reason other than they want to make an example out of you in order to ‘soften up the crowd’ for whatever reason.

    Read More
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  158. @Duke of Qin
    The Chinese police are a bunch of lazy Barney Fifes, corrupt too, but mostly harmless and non-predatory. Their default activity is napping. What distinguishes them from police in India and the US is that they aren't on a power trip. The police in the US behave as if they were an occupying force and their training reflects this, i.e. everyone is treated as a potential threat and the number one priority is going home safely for the day. Their confrontational behavior towards civilians is self evident and running into an American cop in a bad mood is a quick way to end up in legal trouble. Despite China ostensibly being a Communist Police state, most Chinese people are not uneasy around the police and treat them with a degree of nonchalance. Basically most Chinese will act towards the police force as if they were regular other people and the police recognize this. The Chinese internet is full of public cell phone recorded videos of people confronting police in a manner that would have gotten them shot in the US and nothing happens. Irate female drivers assaulting traffic cops, insurance scammers "falling" down in front of cop cars or diving under the slightest taps to claim police brutality and hence a payout, I've even seen a video where idiots were arguing with a cop with a pistol drawn and he fired warning shots into the air. Basically aside from the rare instances where the Communist Party orders an ass kicking for political reasons, the Chinese cops in general are just not very threatening.

    The default state in India policing seems to be a form of anarcho-tyranny. The cops there are on power trips and actively dangerous for the civilian population and should be avoided. Like for example multiple uniformed officers robbing toll booths of money as a matter of course and assaulting the booth attendant because he didn't pay up. Rape victims who were raped once again while under police custody. Bicycles and stolen property conveniently turning up in police impound minutes after you paid their finders fee.

    I like reading stories from China of massive brawls over golf course construction, like one recent one about 800 peasants fighting 300 bandits hired by local officials and golf course developers trying to steal the peasants’ land. It doesn’t sound like much of a police state, it sounds more like Oxford in 1250 AD with gown vs. town riots.

    Read More
    • Replies: @J.Ross
    There was a thing a few years ago, police specific to these little fleamarkets were shaking people down, so the stallkeepers started rioting. It was a regular thing on ChinaSmack and now I can't find it.
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  159. DB Cooper says:
    @Duke of Qin
    The Chinese police are a bunch of lazy Barney Fifes, corrupt too, but mostly harmless and non-predatory. Their default activity is napping. What distinguishes them from police in India and the US is that they aren't on a power trip. The police in the US behave as if they were an occupying force and their training reflects this, i.e. everyone is treated as a potential threat and the number one priority is going home safely for the day. Their confrontational behavior towards civilians is self evident and running into an American cop in a bad mood is a quick way to end up in legal trouble. Despite China ostensibly being a Communist Police state, most Chinese people are not uneasy around the police and treat them with a degree of nonchalance. Basically most Chinese will act towards the police force as if they were regular other people and the police recognize this. The Chinese internet is full of public cell phone recorded videos of people confronting police in a manner that would have gotten them shot in the US and nothing happens. Irate female drivers assaulting traffic cops, insurance scammers "falling" down in front of cop cars or diving under the slightest taps to claim police brutality and hence a payout, I've even seen a video where idiots were arguing with a cop with a pistol drawn and he fired warning shots into the air. Basically aside from the rare instances where the Communist Party orders an ass kicking for political reasons, the Chinese cops in general are just not very threatening.

    The default state in India policing seems to be a form of anarcho-tyranny. The cops there are on power trips and actively dangerous for the civilian population and should be avoided. Like for example multiple uniformed officers robbing toll booths of money as a matter of course and assaulting the booth attendant because he didn't pay up. Rape victims who were raped once again while under police custody. Bicycles and stolen property conveniently turning up in police impound minutes after you paid their finders fee.

    I have also seen a video where a guy act out by lying down in the middle of a road spread eagle because he got a ticket from a traffic cop. If you try that in the state you would probably get rough up pretty bad by the police.

    Read More
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  160. J.Ross says: • Website
    @Steve Sailer
    I like reading stories from China of massive brawls over golf course construction, like one recent one about 800 peasants fighting 300 bandits hired by local officials and golf course developers trying to steal the peasants' land. It doesn't sound like much of a police state, it sounds more like Oxford in 1250 AD with gown vs. town riots.

    There was a thing a few years ago, police specific to these little fleamarkets were shaking people down, so the stallkeepers started rioting. It was a regular thing on ChinaSmack and now I can’t find it.

    Read More
    • Replies: @J.Ross
    Follow-up to this: the flea-market shakedown police are called chengguan. If you just search that term you get complaint stories about them.
    http://shanghaiist.com/2014/04/21/rioting-crowd-beats-5-chengguan-for-killing-civillian.php
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  161. J.Ross says: • Website
    @Duke of Qin
    The Chinese police are a bunch of lazy Barney Fifes, corrupt too, but mostly harmless and non-predatory. Their default activity is napping. What distinguishes them from police in India and the US is that they aren't on a power trip. The police in the US behave as if they were an occupying force and their training reflects this, i.e. everyone is treated as a potential threat and the number one priority is going home safely for the day. Their confrontational behavior towards civilians is self evident and running into an American cop in a bad mood is a quick way to end up in legal trouble. Despite China ostensibly being a Communist Police state, most Chinese people are not uneasy around the police and treat them with a degree of nonchalance. Basically most Chinese will act towards the police force as if they were regular other people and the police recognize this. The Chinese internet is full of public cell phone recorded videos of people confronting police in a manner that would have gotten them shot in the US and nothing happens. Irate female drivers assaulting traffic cops, insurance scammers "falling" down in front of cop cars or diving under the slightest taps to claim police brutality and hence a payout, I've even seen a video where idiots were arguing with a cop with a pistol drawn and he fired warning shots into the air. Basically aside from the rare instances where the Communist Party orders an ass kicking for political reasons, the Chinese cops in general are just not very threatening.

    The default state in India policing seems to be a form of anarcho-tyranny. The cops there are on power trips and actively dangerous for the civilian population and should be avoided. Like for example multiple uniformed officers robbing toll booths of money as a matter of course and assaulting the booth attendant because he didn't pay up. Rape victims who were raped once again while under police custody. Bicycles and stolen property conveniently turning up in police impound minutes after you paid their finders fee.

    Right, Chinese are effectively self-policing whereas Indian authorities are like a foreign occupation constantly losing and re-establishing their place. The Indian layabout doesn’t last and the Chinese Sardar gets pulled into the chief’s office for a scene from the first act of Hot Fuzz and a reassignment to records.
    >TV said American cops are Dreddful
    Okay. That’s not at all normal and is the result of a globalist drive to turn us into Brazil. I interact with cops all the time and have not encountered any power tripping. Thing is, besides the globalist plot, the federal government scheme to promise goodies like armor in exchange for adopting disastrous federal guidelines, etc, it’s illustrative of the same point. Calm cops are almost definitely policing a peaceful, homogeneous area where folks generally do what they are told. On the other hand, having to go out there every day and know from experience that as soon as you try to help somebody he’s going to start screaming at you or flat-out refuse to give any information …

    Read More
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  162. J.Ross says: • Website
    @J.Ross
    There was a thing a few years ago, police specific to these little fleamarkets were shaking people down, so the stallkeepers started rioting. It was a regular thing on ChinaSmack and now I can't find it.

    Follow-up to this: the flea-market shakedown police are called chengguan. If you just search that term you get complaint stories about them.

    http://shanghaiist.com/2014/04/21/rioting-crowd-beats-5-chengguan-for-killing-civillian.php

    Read More
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  163. Marcus D. says:
    @Thomm

    From the ancient Greeks to the Hindu upper classes or the modern European scientists.
     
    You are again conflating 'caste' with 'Aryanness' and 'IQ'. If that were the case, the Indians who are in the US and are highly successful would all be tall, Greco-Persian-looking people from the North, not some dark-skinned little people from the South.

    From what I can tell, in India, there are high-caste people who are poor, and low-caste people who are rich.

    Around here, the simple minds assume that caste, Caucasian-ness, IQ, and wealth are all fully correlated among Indians. But my experience has revealed that it is not.

    It is not like 'caste' is tattooed on people's foreheads.

    I wrote about the great intelectual achievements from ancient India. They were made from people of upper castes, and for sure they had more Indo-European elements than people from lower castes. The Reich’s studies proved that people from upper castes have more Indo-European DNA than people from lower castes.

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  164. Anonymous[817] • Disclaimer says:
    @RadicalCenter
    The Mexican influx of "half a century ago"? Mexicans are still flooding into the USA every day, both legally and illegally -- far, far more than Indians settling in the USA.

    Indians do present a serious danger to us, though, because of the amoral cut-throat way in which they tend to operate, as you point out.

    Indians will never be the biggest racial group in the former constituent parts of the USA -- and they, like all non-Mexicans, won't be particularly welcome or safe in the independent (seceded) Mexican-majority California that is coming.

    Don’t you believe it.

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  165. TheBoom says:
    @Duke of Qin
    The Chinese police are a bunch of lazy Barney Fifes, corrupt too, but mostly harmless and non-predatory. Their default activity is napping. What distinguishes them from police in India and the US is that they aren't on a power trip. The police in the US behave as if they were an occupying force and their training reflects this, i.e. everyone is treated as a potential threat and the number one priority is going home safely for the day. Their confrontational behavior towards civilians is self evident and running into an American cop in a bad mood is a quick way to end up in legal trouble. Despite China ostensibly being a Communist Police state, most Chinese people are not uneasy around the police and treat them with a degree of nonchalance. Basically most Chinese will act towards the police force as if they were regular other people and the police recognize this. The Chinese internet is full of public cell phone recorded videos of people confronting police in a manner that would have gotten them shot in the US and nothing happens. Irate female drivers assaulting traffic cops, insurance scammers "falling" down in front of cop cars or diving under the slightest taps to claim police brutality and hence a payout, I've even seen a video where idiots were arguing with a cop with a pistol drawn and he fired warning shots into the air. Basically aside from the rare instances where the Communist Party orders an ass kicking for political reasons, the Chinese cops in general are just not very threatening.

    The default state in India policing seems to be a form of anarcho-tyranny. The cops there are on power trips and actively dangerous for the civilian population and should be avoided. Like for example multiple uniformed officers robbing toll booths of money as a matter of course and assaulting the booth attendant because he didn't pay up. Rape victims who were raped once again while under police custody. Bicycles and stolen property conveniently turning up in police impound minutes after you paid their finders fee.

    I tend to agree with your assessment of the Chinese police and the public’s perception of them based on my limited view from living there for a year. I found Chinese to be more concerned with government spies in schools and businesses than with the police. Everyone seemed to feel that it is safer to assume spies are there.

    Do you know to what degree Chinese are concerned with the amped up censorship under their new ruler for life?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    There was this pretty funny independent poll a few weeks ago that found that 84% of them were concerned about their privacy due to technological expansion but revealed preference showed that they continued to use their smartphones anyway and did absolutely nothing to reduce exposure to their privacy. I imagine that its about the same for censorship.

    Its a rather sad commentary in some ways about humanity: what we say, what we do.
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  166. TheBoom says:
    @Mr.Mister
    I suspect there was probably outside pressure that caused Taki to close their comments section. Whatever it was, it seems like the noose is slowly tightening...

    The ADL and SPLC are gaining significant power and any criticism of Jews is becoming grounds for banishment from mainstream culture and even becoming illegal if it includes BDS. I imagine Taki has dreams of growing advertising revenue and staying on Facebook. Those increasingly cannot be accomplished without approval from the Jews

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    One would think that a perfect defense against criticism from what happens in the comments section is that it is in the comments and therefore does not reflect the views of the Takimag writers. I quite dislike the PRC attitude toward censorship("harmonizing") and find it annoying that its spreading. It was actually one of the things which I most disliked Xi for when it was clear he was pushing in that direction, seemingly reversing from the direction of previous presidents. Sure, its mostly symbolic and WeChat is mostly a free for all, but symbols mean something.

    Of course, then you don't have this:

    https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/642C/production/_89044652_untitled-1.jpg

    How does one manage to exceed the scope of censorship(and punishment) of an explicitly authoritarian state? Goddamn. The mind hurts.
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  167. @Coag
    What is this “early concept of diversity” you speak of? Maybe you’re confusing sullen medieval Han warlord maniacs with bright eyed latter day Scandinavian refugee camp volunteers.

    Tang Emperor Wuzong was convinced by Taoist mystics to instigate a series of pogroms against Christianity and Zoroastrianism, and devastated Buddhism by expropriating the Buddhist temples’ financial assets.

    Shortly thereafter Huang Chao, who failed the Imperial civil service exam, discharged his frustration by whipping up a massacre of all foreigners in Canton—Zoroastrians, Jews, Syriac Christians, and Muslims. Which by the way is one of many murderous civil disturbances set off throughout the history of Imperial China by, horribly yet amusingly enough, people who failed that notorious exam.

    A civil disturbance made by a rebel killed by the government is not official policy.

    No, this:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turks_in_the_Tang_military#Emperor_Taizong_and_multiculturalism

    While mostly symbolic, the title of Heavenly Kaghan shows Taizong’s open attitudes towards the existence of a multicultural and ethnically diverse Tang empire. Taizong was proud of his policies promoting ethnic equality, and was reported to have said that, “The emperors since ancient times have all appreciated the Chinese and depreciated the barbarians. Only I view them as equal. That is why they look upon me as their parent.”

    How did you think that An Lushan got to accumulate his critical mass of co-ethnics for the rebellion? He wasn’t a nobody, he held noble titles in the Chinese court, and was permitted to appoint himself as a general over his co-ethnics, remove Han from his circles, and was still shielded from criticism right up until he began his campaign.

    Read More
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  168. @TheBoom
    I tend to agree with your assessment of the Chinese police and the public's perception of them based on my limited view from living there for a year. I found Chinese to be more concerned with government spies in schools and businesses than with the police. Everyone seemed to feel that it is safer to assume spies are there.

    Do you know to what degree Chinese are concerned with the amped up censorship under their new ruler for life?

    There was this pretty funny independent poll a few weeks ago that found that 84% of them were concerned about their privacy due to technological expansion but revealed preference showed that they continued to use their smartphones anyway and did absolutely nothing to reduce exposure to their privacy. I imagine that its about the same for censorship.

    Its a rather sad commentary in some ways about humanity: what we say, what we do.

    Read More
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  169. @TheBoom
    The ADL and SPLC are gaining significant power and any criticism of Jews is becoming grounds for banishment from mainstream culture and even becoming illegal if it includes BDS. I imagine Taki has dreams of growing advertising revenue and staying on Facebook. Those increasingly cannot be accomplished without approval from the Jews

    One would think that a perfect defense against criticism from what happens in the comments section is that it is in the comments and therefore does not reflect the views of the Takimag writers. I quite dislike the PRC attitude toward censorship(“harmonizing”) and find it annoying that its spreading. It was actually one of the things which I most disliked Xi for when it was clear he was pushing in that direction, seemingly reversing from the direction of previous presidents. Sure, its mostly symbolic and WeChat is mostly a free for all, but symbols mean something.

    Of course, then you don’t have this:

    How does one manage to exceed the scope of censorship(and punishment) of an explicitly authoritarian state? Goddamn. The mind hurts.

    Read More
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  170. @res
    Thanks. That link was broken for me (I think because of character conversion, it has a double dash). Let's try this one

    There are some interesting data files (I think from the book) at http://www.ggdc.net/MADDISON/oriindex.htm

    Sorry for the trouble. Thank you for fixing the glitch.

    Read More
    • Replies: @res
    No problem. There are enough subtle special character issues with the automatic link creation that I have gotten into the habit of double checking links when I comment. Especially when they have unusual characters. I still miss some myself though.
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  171. @Samuel Skinner
    Highly. There is a bit of a disconnect where the earliest parts (pre-2200 years old) did not cover the entire core of China, but that is it. The people and culture have an uninterrupted progression from then to modern times and the high culture was resiliant- the characters stayed the same from 500-1946 AD, although you could go back to 200 BC and have it be relatively similar. Like if you could read Beowulf without it having to be translated.

    The characters stayed the same over 2000 years but the language changed and semantics changed. A 19th century Chinese needed years of study and commentaries to understand a text in 7th century Classical Chinese and it is far worse now. It is not dissimilar to the situation of a modern Italian trying to read Latin.

    Read More
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  172. Marcus D. says:

    Brahmagupta directed a great deal of criticism towards the work of rival astronomers, and his Brahmasphutasiddhanta displays one of the earliest schisms among Indian mathematicians. The division was primarily about the application of mathematics to the physical world, rather than about the mathematics itself.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahmagupta

    This is amazing !

    It looks like modern conflics in the scientific field if it’s better to invest in applied research or in basic research.

    In East Asia they basically invest only in new products or applied research with clear possible technological aplications.

    Read More
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  173. @Jason Liu
    Why? Democracy is in no way better than authoritarianism, on average. If anything it's the cause of most problems in developed countries.

    Massive environmental degradation, the crushing of dissenters like Liu Xiaobo, mass censorship, biblical levels of corruption and a paranoid, thoroughly unaccountable elite that spends more on internal security and policing than national defence to keep its grip on power.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    In the UK, Twitter users regularly get summarily slung into jail for offending 'privileged' classes.
    By 'privileged' I don't mean the Royal Family - whom one is free to insult in the vilest possible terms - but so-called 'ethnic minorities', gays, lesbians and women.

    So you know who *really* holds the power in the UK.
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  174. Edward says:

    An interesting article, and I am in complete agreement that the development of China and India will be incredibly consequential for the world. I have long held a fascination with India and I am developing such a fascination for China, too.

    A minor quibble: a dichotomy seems to pop up in the article, involving classifying India into ‘Brahmin’ and ‘non-Brahmin’ populations. In reality, India seems to me to be far more complex than that, demographically and ethnically speaking. Relatedly, it isn’t just Brahmin Indians who do well in Western societies, for instance. If Brahmins were the only ‘standout’ group in India, it would be surprising to see Indian-Americans – including a significant chunk of non-Brahmin individuals – have the highest household incomes, the highest rate of graduate degree attainment, the highest SAT scores (according to old data from Arthur Hu) and, according to Richwine, IQs that may be around 112.

    Similarly, according to the UK Government’s ‘Ethnicity Facts and Figures’ website, Indian students (most of whom are now third-generation in the UK) do best on some educational measures and, if not, come second to Chinese students. British-Indians also have the highest average incomes in the UK, according to the same official statistics. According to data published by Anatoly Karlin from 2009, British Indians seem to have average IQs of around 100. And I aver that British Indians – at least from my experience – are predominantly non-Brahmin, including many Kshatriyas from Northwestern India. Britain in the 1950s and 1960s was also far less selective than the United States is today when it encouraged people from its former colonies to emigrate to the UK.

    Read More
    • Agree: Thomm
    • Replies: @Thomm
    Thanks for this. I have come to similar conclusions as well.

    The simple-minded people here conflate 'Brahmin Caste', 'Aryanness', 'Wealth', and 'IQ' as if these things are precisely correlated. In reality, I was surprised to learn that half of the Indians in the US are not even Hindus.

    Plus, 'whiteness' was the determinant of which Indians are successful, then Pakistan would be much richer than Sri Lanka. In reality, the opposite is true. If this were correlated, then the highly successful Indian community in the US would be tall and light-skinned (i.e. Afghan-looking or Pakistani-looking), rather than short, dark, and tubby.

    I am a strong advocate of skilled-only immigration (and hence a strong opponent of unskilled immigration). For this, these fools think I am an Indian, and will probably accuse you of the same due to your comment.
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  175. Anonymous[817] • Disclaimer says:
    @Ali Choudhury
    Massive environmental degradation, the crushing of dissenters like Liu Xiaobo, mass censorship, biblical levels of corruption and a paranoid, thoroughly unaccountable elite that spends more on internal security and policing than national defence to keep its grip on power.

    In the UK, Twitter users regularly get summarily slung into jail for offending ‘privileged’ classes.
    By ‘privileged’ I don’t mean the Royal Family – whom one is free to insult in the vilest possible terms – but so-called ‘ethnic minorities’, gays, lesbians and women.

    So you know who *really* holds the power in the UK.

    Read More
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  176. Gary says:
    @Mr.Mister
    Wow...when did you visit China? Something like this wouldn't surprise me in the 1990s, but today, you would not see this in Shanghai. Of course, poorer provinces in China, like Henan, are probably like this.

    January 1998 we visited China.

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  177. @Daniel Chieh
    I look forward to Indian dominance so I can finally use my acquired language skills to ask people to do the needful and revert prompt because issue pending been so long.

    I frikkin hate seeing the word ‘revert’ when ‘reply’ is the correct word to use. The misuse of ‘revert’ has long been a staple of Singapore’s email lingo.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    I have actually not seen much Singlish as of late; people I talk to in Singapore write in proper English or proper Mandarin. Bully for you.
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  178. Nick Diaz says:

    Steve Sailer:

    Using the example of India to prove that diversity doesen’t work is both asinine and counter-productive to your argument. First of all, India is the World’s 7th largest economy in terms of nominal GDP, and it is actually the World’s 3rd largest if you measure it by PPP. Considering there are over 200 nation-states in the world, I’d say India is successful. How much more successful does it need to be?

    Secondly, the problem is not diversity, but the intelligence, culture and character of people that determine whether diversity works or not. Go to Harvard Square, where everyone there is intelligent and civilized, and you’ll see people of all different ethnic backgrounds getting along just fine. Diversity doesen’t work with low-class people. The less intelligent and educated people are, the more they tend to give importance to race and nationality. The more you climb up the socio-economic ladder, the more individualistic and civilized people tend to become. Members of the elite tend to judge whether they like others or not based on individual character and not their race and nationality. The elite is far more individualistic, cosmopolitan and civilized than common people. Elites tend to be intelligent, and intelligent people consider judging others on their ethnic and national background, things they have no control over, as cruel and unfair. It is far more ethical to judge others on their individual merits as that involves volition. Being ethnocentric and nationalistic is typical of low-class people. For instance, white nationalists tend to be what we call in popular language “white trash”. There are exceptions, but in general white racists/nationalists are not the best and brightest of white people.

    Regarding the Yamnaya, contrary to Nordic fantasies, the vast majority of them had brown eyes and a skin tone lighter than Africans,. but darker than even modern southern Europeans. In fact, they looked like modern Turks and Afghanis. We now know which gene alleles are responsible for eye, hair and skin color, and the DNA extracted from steppe nomads buried in Kurgans indicates they had mostly brown eyes and moderately brown skin, with black hair being preponderant, with red hair being in the minority. In fact, only red hair has been found to be associated with the Yamnaya. But red hair was in the tiny minority. All other eye and hair colors other than dark were not evident in Yamnaya samples. As the Yamnaya herdsmen moved into Europe, their skin became lighter because western Europe is cloudy, and white skin helps to absorb ultraviolet rays for vitamin D production. As for light-colored eyes and hair, it seems to be mostly the result of sexual selection of pretty women. The Yamnaya raiders prefered to mate with women that carried the genetic mutations for light-colored eyes and hair as they are more visually appealing, so these genetic mutations spread. In fact, when it comes to blue eyes, it seems like this eye color is a very ancient mutation that was already present in western Europe some 20,000 years ago, much before the Yamnaya even existed. The Yamnaya were also tall due to their high-protein diet. So to imagine what a Yamnaya male looked like in the latter Copper/early Bronze Age some 5,000 years ago, imagine a huge man with the skin and eye color of a Sicilian, reddish brown hair and a big Armenian nose.

    Another thing: the Yamnaya were a mix of these eastern European Paleolithic hunter-gatherers with an Iranian people that were isolated geographically for some 12,000 years. The Iranians were the minority of the Yamnaya, but they were the leaders. *All* the male aristocrats that have been analysed had the R1-b haplogroup, which originated in northwestern Iran. This Iranian population were just as tall as the EEHG, but they had a more gracile bodybuild typical of mediterraneans. They also carried the gene alleles for red hair – although red hair was in the minority among them. They became the ruling caste of the Yamnaya because they were more technologically advanced than the EEHG: they had chariots and metal-smelting technology and were more organized. They also had the typical Patriarchal structure typical of Indo-Europeans.

    Another thing: even the Yamnaya were not pure “Aryan”: the majority of their ancestry was of eastern European hunter-gatherers. Conversely, the mitochondrial and patrilineal DNA associated with Indo-Europeans, the R1-a, R1-b, U, I, J, etc, all originated in the area that now is northwestern Iran. The Indo-European genetics represented only 30-40% of Yamnaya DNA. As the Yamnaya moved into Europe, their Indo-European genetics became even more diluted. Western Europeans average 25% Yamnaya ancestry and only 15% from the aristocratic Iranian ruling caste of the Yamnaya.

    Sailer is right that northern Europeans average higher steppe ancestry than southern Europeans. Yamnaya ancestry peaks in Norway at around 50%, and around 40% for other Scandinavian countries and Germany. Teh higher steppe ancestry of northern Europeans is evident, among other things, in them being taller and more lactose tolerant than souther Europeans, which indicates a nomadic ancestry.

    However, extreme Western Europeans and Iberians have a higher proportion of “noble” paternal Indo-European DNA than northern Europeans. The haplogroup most strongly associated with Yamnaya aristocrats was the R1-b haplogroup, and this peaks Wales and Spain, followed by Ireland and Scotland. That is, the dark Welsh and Spaniards have less overall steppe ancestry than Scandinavians and Germans, but they have more *noble* paternal Indo-European ancestry than Scandinavians and Germans. Scandinavians have very little R1-b paternal ancestry, and the R1-a haplogroup, another one associated with Indo-Europeans, is in the minority. The R1-a peaks in Poland, and eastern Europeans also have more paternal Indo-European ancestry than Scandinavians and Germans, although not of the aristocratic sort. I wouldn’t be surprised if Hernan Cortez turned out be R1-b by paternal ancestry: this particular haplogroup seems to be associated with ferocious destructive masculine behavior.

    Also, even though the Yamnaya were conquerors, they were still savages. Their only ability, like that of the Mongols and other steppe peoples, was violence. By every metric of civilization, they were primitive barbarians. Having a lot of Indo-European ancestry is nothing to brag about.

    For instance, ancient Hellas is generally considered to be the greatest civilization to have ever existed in the face of the Earth. Of all the Greek city-states, the most accomplished by far, intellectually, and culturally, was Athens. And the Athenians had the *least* steppe ancestry of all the Greek city-states. In fact, the Athenians were of almost pure Pelasgian ancestry. The Pelasgians were the old Europeans from before the Indo-European invasions. The Greek city-state with the highest amount of Indo-European ancestry was Sparta, and they were the least accomplished of all Greek city-states except for certain aspects of military strategy. In fact, the accomplishments of the Spartans were pitiful.

    In Rome, the Indo-European Latins conquered the Etruscans and Sabines, but they submitted to the superior culture of these old European civilizations. In fact, the Sabines were vastly overrepresented among the ranks of Patrician families in ancient Rome. Blue eyes and light-colored hair were more common among Plebeians than among Patricians. This despite the fact that the light-colored Indo-European Latini conquered them. The majority of the most exalted Patrician gentes in ancient Rome were of Sabine and old European ancestry, such as the Valerii, Sulpicci. Manlii, Caludii, Sergii, etc. There were few Latin Patrician gentes, like the Fabii and the Iulii.

    The pattern appears to be the same in everywhere: tall, ferocious, militarized and Patriarchal Indo-Europeans invade other civilizations and become a warrior elite, or submit to a superior civilization. This happened in India, ancient Hellas and Italy and Latin America. In India and Latin America, they became a warrior/oligarchic elite. In western Europe, they mixed with the local population and became indistinguishable from them. In southern Europe, they became a warrior elite but submitted to the greatness and superiority of old European civilizations. The Indo-European Latins became the most ferocious defenders first of the Etruscan civilization and then of the great Hellenic civilization, which was created mostly by the old European Pelasgians. They adopted everything from Old Europeans, even in dress, as they recognized these civilizations to be far superior to what they brought from the steppes. In China, you would see a similar pattern, with the Mongols eventually submitting to the superiority of Han China. Steppe peoples, whether Caucasian like the Yamnaya or Mongoloid like the Mongols, are just not very good at this whole civilization thing, which is so beneficial to everybody.

    In fact, the primitivism of northern Europeans with their high amount of steppe ancestry in the ancient World, and now their high degree of development in the modern World, is the best evidence *against* a genetic fatalistic outview on human society. If it were all to genetics, then northern Europeans should have always been more advanced than southern Europeans, which was definitely not the case for thousands of years. Only in the last 500 years or so did this become true. People and peoples change. 2,000 years is a very short scale in evolutionary terms, so at least most of the change can be attributed to environmental influences rather than genetic change.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    You don't know what you are talking about.
    , @Anonymous
    On your next visit home to Mexico, please turn left at the first pile of human heads.
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  179. Anonymous[817] • Disclaimer says:
    @Nick Diaz
    Steve Sailer:

    Using the example of India to prove that diversity doesen't work is both asinine and counter-productive to your argument. First of all, India is the World's 7th largest economy in terms of nominal GDP, and it is actually the World's 3rd largest if you measure it by PPP. Considering there are over 200 nation-states in the world, I'd say India is successful. How much more successful does it need to be?

    Secondly, the problem is not diversity, but the intelligence, culture and character of people that determine whether diversity works or not. Go to Harvard Square, where everyone there is intelligent and civilized, and you'll see people of all different ethnic backgrounds getting along just fine. Diversity doesen't work with low-class people. The less intelligent and educated people are, the more they tend to give importance to race and nationality. The more you climb up the socio-economic ladder, the more individualistic and civilized people tend to become. Members of the elite tend to judge whether they like others or not based on individual character and not their race and nationality. The elite is far more individualistic, cosmopolitan and civilized than common people. Elites tend to be intelligent, and intelligent people consider judging others on their ethnic and national background, things they have no control over, as cruel and unfair. It is far more ethical to judge others on their individual merits as that involves volition. Being ethnocentric and nationalistic is typical of low-class people. For instance, white nationalists tend to be what we call in popular language "white trash". There are exceptions, but in general white racists/nationalists are not the best and brightest of white people.

    Regarding the Yamnaya, contrary to Nordic fantasies, the vast majority of them had brown eyes and a skin tone lighter than Africans,. but darker than even modern southern Europeans. In fact, they looked like modern Turks and Afghanis. We now know which gene alleles are responsible for eye, hair and skin color, and the DNA extracted from steppe nomads buried in Kurgans indicates they had mostly brown eyes and moderately brown skin, with black hair being preponderant, with red hair being in the minority. In fact, only red hair has been found to be associated with the Yamnaya. But red hair was in the tiny minority. All other eye and hair colors other than dark were not evident in Yamnaya samples. As the Yamnaya herdsmen moved into Europe, their skin became lighter because western Europe is cloudy, and white skin helps to absorb ultraviolet rays for vitamin D production. As for light-colored eyes and hair, it seems to be mostly the result of sexual selection of pretty women. The Yamnaya raiders prefered to mate with women that carried the genetic mutations for light-colored eyes and hair as they are more visually appealing, so these genetic mutations spread. In fact, when it comes to blue eyes, it seems like this eye color is a very ancient mutation that was already present in western Europe some 20,000 years ago, much before the Yamnaya even existed. The Yamnaya were also tall due to their high-protein diet. So to imagine what a Yamnaya male looked like in the latter Copper/early Bronze Age some 5,000 years ago, imagine a huge man with the skin and eye color of a Sicilian, reddish brown hair and a big Armenian nose.

    Another thing: the Yamnaya were a mix of these eastern European Paleolithic hunter-gatherers with an Iranian people that were isolated geographically for some 12,000 years. The Iranians were the minority of the Yamnaya, but they were the leaders. *All* the male aristocrats that have been analysed had the R1-b haplogroup, which originated in northwestern Iran. This Iranian population were just as tall as the EEHG, but they had a more gracile bodybuild typical of mediterraneans. They also carried the gene alleles for red hair - although red hair was in the minority among them. They became the ruling caste of the Yamnaya because they were more technologically advanced than the EEHG: they had chariots and metal-smelting technology and were more organized. They also had the typical Patriarchal structure typical of Indo-Europeans.

    Another thing: even the Yamnaya were not pure "Aryan": the majority of their ancestry was of eastern European hunter-gatherers. Conversely, the mitochondrial and patrilineal DNA associated with Indo-Europeans, the R1-a, R1-b, U, I, J, etc, all originated in the area that now is northwestern Iran. The Indo-European genetics represented only 30-40% of Yamnaya DNA. As the Yamnaya moved into Europe, their Indo-European genetics became even more diluted. Western Europeans average 25% Yamnaya ancestry and only 15% from the aristocratic Iranian ruling caste of the Yamnaya.

    Sailer is right that northern Europeans average higher steppe ancestry than southern Europeans. Yamnaya ancestry peaks in Norway at around 50%, and around 40% for other Scandinavian countries and Germany. Teh higher steppe ancestry of northern Europeans is evident, among other things, in them being taller and more lactose tolerant than souther Europeans, which indicates a nomadic ancestry.

    However, extreme Western Europeans and Iberians have a higher proportion of "noble" paternal Indo-European DNA than northern Europeans. The haplogroup most strongly associated with Yamnaya aristocrats was the R1-b haplogroup, and this peaks Wales and Spain, followed by Ireland and Scotland. That is, the dark Welsh and Spaniards have less overall steppe ancestry than Scandinavians and Germans, but they have more *noble* paternal Indo-European ancestry than Scandinavians and Germans. Scandinavians have very little R1-b paternal ancestry, and the R1-a haplogroup, another one associated with Indo-Europeans, is in the minority. The R1-a peaks in Poland, and eastern Europeans also have more paternal Indo-European ancestry than Scandinavians and Germans, although not of the aristocratic sort. I wouldn't be surprised if Hernan Cortez turned out be R1-b by paternal ancestry: this particular haplogroup seems to be associated with ferocious destructive masculine behavior.

    Also, even though the Yamnaya were conquerors, they were still savages. Their only ability, like that of the Mongols and other steppe peoples, was violence. By every metric of civilization, they were primitive barbarians. Having a lot of Indo-European ancestry is nothing to brag about.

    For instance, ancient Hellas is generally considered to be the greatest civilization to have ever existed in the face of the Earth. Of all the Greek city-states, the most accomplished by far, intellectually, and culturally, was Athens. And the Athenians had the *least* steppe ancestry of all the Greek city-states. In fact, the Athenians were of almost pure Pelasgian ancestry. The Pelasgians were the old Europeans from before the Indo-European invasions. The Greek city-state with the highest amount of Indo-European ancestry was Sparta, and they were the least accomplished of all Greek city-states except for certain aspects of military strategy. In fact, the accomplishments of the Spartans were pitiful.

    In Rome, the Indo-European Latins conquered the Etruscans and Sabines, but they submitted to the superior culture of these old European civilizations. In fact, the Sabines were vastly overrepresented among the ranks of Patrician families in ancient Rome. Blue eyes and light-colored hair were more common among Plebeians than among Patricians. This despite the fact that the light-colored Indo-European Latini conquered them. The majority of the most exalted Patrician gentes in ancient Rome were of Sabine and old European ancestry, such as the Valerii, Sulpicci. Manlii, Caludii, Sergii, etc. There were few Latin Patrician gentes, like the Fabii and the Iulii.

    The pattern appears to be the same in everywhere: tall, ferocious, militarized and Patriarchal Indo-Europeans invade other civilizations and become a warrior elite, or submit to a superior civilization. This happened in India, ancient Hellas and Italy and Latin America. In India and Latin America, they became a warrior/oligarchic elite. In western Europe, they mixed with the local population and became indistinguishable from them. In southern Europe, they became a warrior elite but submitted to the greatness and superiority of old European civilizations. The Indo-European Latins became the most ferocious defenders first of the Etruscan civilization and then of the great Hellenic civilization, which was created mostly by the old European Pelasgians. They adopted everything from Old Europeans, even in dress, as they recognized these civilizations to be far superior to what they brought from the steppes. In China, you would see a similar pattern, with the Mongols eventually submitting to the superiority of Han China. Steppe peoples, whether Caucasian like the Yamnaya or Mongoloid like the Mongols, are just not very good at this whole civilization thing, which is so beneficial to everybody.

    In fact, the primitivism of northern Europeans with their high amount of steppe ancestry in the ancient World, and now their high degree of development in the modern World, is the best evidence *against* a genetic fatalistic outview on human society. If it were all to genetics, then northern Europeans should have always been more advanced than southern Europeans, which was definitely not the case for thousands of years. Only in the last 500 years or so did this become true. People and peoples change. 2,000 years is a very short scale in evolutionary terms, so at least most of the change can be attributed to environmental influences rather than genetic change.

    You don’t know what you are talking about.

    Read More
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  180. Anonymous[817] • Disclaimer says:
    @Nick Diaz
    Steve Sailer:

    Using the example of India to prove that diversity doesen't work is both asinine and counter-productive to your argument. First of all, India is the World's 7th largest economy in terms of nominal GDP, and it is actually the World's 3rd largest if you measure it by PPP. Considering there are over 200 nation-states in the world, I'd say India is successful. How much more successful does it need to be?

    Secondly, the problem is not diversity, but the intelligence, culture and character of people that determine whether diversity works or not. Go to Harvard Square, where everyone there is intelligent and civilized, and you'll see people of all different ethnic backgrounds getting along just fine. Diversity doesen't work with low-class people. The less intelligent and educated people are, the more they tend to give importance to race and nationality. The more you climb up the socio-economic ladder, the more individualistic and civilized people tend to become. Members of the elite tend to judge whether they like others or not based on individual character and not their race and nationality. The elite is far more individualistic, cosmopolitan and civilized than common people. Elites tend to be intelligent, and intelligent people consider judging others on their ethnic and national background, things they have no control over, as cruel and unfair. It is far more ethical to judge others on their individual merits as that involves volition. Being ethnocentric and nationalistic is typical of low-class people. For instance, white nationalists tend to be what we call in popular language "white trash". There are exceptions, but in general white racists/nationalists are not the best and brightest of white people.

    Regarding the Yamnaya, contrary to Nordic fantasies, the vast majority of them had brown eyes and a skin tone lighter than Africans,. but darker than even modern southern Europeans. In fact, they looked like modern Turks and Afghanis. We now know which gene alleles are responsible for eye, hair and skin color, and the DNA extracted from steppe nomads buried in Kurgans indicates they had mostly brown eyes and moderately brown skin, with black hair being preponderant, with red hair being in the minority. In fact, only red hair has been found to be associated with the Yamnaya. But red hair was in the tiny minority. All other eye and hair colors other than dark were not evident in Yamnaya samples. As the Yamnaya herdsmen moved into Europe, their skin became lighter because western Europe is cloudy, and white skin helps to absorb ultraviolet rays for vitamin D production. As for light-colored eyes and hair, it seems to be mostly the result of sexual selection of pretty women. The Yamnaya raiders prefered to mate with women that carried the genetic mutations for light-colored eyes and hair as they are more visually appealing, so these genetic mutations spread. In fact, when it comes to blue eyes, it seems like this eye color is a very ancient mutation that was already present in western Europe some 20,000 years ago, much before the Yamnaya even existed. The Yamnaya were also tall due to their high-protein diet. So to imagine what a Yamnaya male looked like in the latter Copper/early Bronze Age some 5,000 years ago, imagine a huge man with the skin and eye color of a Sicilian, reddish brown hair and a big Armenian nose.

    Another thing: the Yamnaya were a mix of these eastern European Paleolithic hunter-gatherers with an Iranian people that were isolated geographically for some 12,000 years. The Iranians were the minority of the Yamnaya, but they were the leaders. *All* the male aristocrats that have been analysed had the R1-b haplogroup, which originated in northwestern Iran. This Iranian population were just as tall as the EEHG, but they had a more gracile bodybuild typical of mediterraneans. They also carried the gene alleles for red hair - although red hair was in the minority among them. They became the ruling caste of the Yamnaya because they were more technologically advanced than the EEHG: they had chariots and metal-smelting technology and were more organized. They also had the typical Patriarchal structure typical of Indo-Europeans.

    Another thing: even the Yamnaya were not pure "Aryan": the majority of their ancestry was of eastern European hunter-gatherers. Conversely, the mitochondrial and patrilineal DNA associated with Indo-Europeans, the R1-a, R1-b, U, I, J, etc, all originated in the area that now is northwestern Iran. The Indo-European genetics represented only 30-40% of Yamnaya DNA. As the Yamnaya moved into Europe, their Indo-European genetics became even more diluted. Western Europeans average 25% Yamnaya ancestry and only 15% from the aristocratic Iranian ruling caste of the Yamnaya.

    Sailer is right that northern Europeans average higher steppe ancestry than southern Europeans. Yamnaya ancestry peaks in Norway at around 50%, and around 40% for other Scandinavian countries and Germany. Teh higher steppe ancestry of northern Europeans is evident, among other things, in them being taller and more lactose tolerant than souther Europeans, which indicates a nomadic ancestry.

    However, extreme Western Europeans and Iberians have a higher proportion of "noble" paternal Indo-European DNA than northern Europeans. The haplogroup most strongly associated with Yamnaya aristocrats was the R1-b haplogroup, and this peaks Wales and Spain, followed by Ireland and Scotland. That is, the dark Welsh and Spaniards have less overall steppe ancestry than Scandinavians and Germans, but they have more *noble* paternal Indo-European ancestry than Scandinavians and Germans. Scandinavians have very little R1-b paternal ancestry, and the R1-a haplogroup, another one associated with Indo-Europeans, is in the minority. The R1-a peaks in Poland, and eastern Europeans also have more paternal Indo-European ancestry than Scandinavians and Germans, although not of the aristocratic sort. I wouldn't be surprised if Hernan Cortez turned out be R1-b by paternal ancestry: this particular haplogroup seems to be associated with ferocious destructive masculine behavior.

    Also, even though the Yamnaya were conquerors, they were still savages. Their only ability, like that of the Mongols and other steppe peoples, was violence. By every metric of civilization, they were primitive barbarians. Having a lot of Indo-European ancestry is nothing to brag about.

    For instance, ancient Hellas is generally considered to be the greatest civilization to have ever existed in the face of the Earth. Of all the Greek city-states, the most accomplished by far, intellectually, and culturally, was Athens. And the Athenians had the *least* steppe ancestry of all the Greek city-states. In fact, the Athenians were of almost pure Pelasgian ancestry. The Pelasgians were the old Europeans from before the Indo-European invasions. The Greek city-state with the highest amount of Indo-European ancestry was Sparta, and they were the least accomplished of all Greek city-states except for certain aspects of military strategy. In fact, the accomplishments of the Spartans were pitiful.

    In Rome, the Indo-European Latins conquered the Etruscans and Sabines, but they submitted to the superior culture of these old European civilizations. In fact, the Sabines were vastly overrepresented among the ranks of Patrician families in ancient Rome. Blue eyes and light-colored hair were more common among Plebeians than among Patricians. This despite the fact that the light-colored Indo-European Latini conquered them. The majority of the most exalted Patrician gentes in ancient Rome were of Sabine and old European ancestry, such as the Valerii, Sulpicci. Manlii, Caludii, Sergii, etc. There were few Latin Patrician gentes, like the Fabii and the Iulii.

    The pattern appears to be the same in everywhere: tall, ferocious, militarized and Patriarchal Indo-Europeans invade other civilizations and become a warrior elite, or submit to a superior civilization. This happened in India, ancient Hellas and Italy and Latin America. In India and Latin America, they became a warrior/oligarchic elite. In western Europe, they mixed with the local population and became indistinguishable from them. In southern Europe, they became a warrior elite but submitted to the greatness and superiority of old European civilizations. The Indo-European Latins became the most ferocious defenders first of the Etruscan civilization and then of the great Hellenic civilization, which was created mostly by the old European Pelasgians. They adopted everything from Old Europeans, even in dress, as they recognized these civilizations to be far superior to what they brought from the steppes. In China, you would see a similar pattern, with the Mongols eventually submitting to the superiority of Han China. Steppe peoples, whether Caucasian like the Yamnaya or Mongoloid like the Mongols, are just not very good at this whole civilization thing, which is so beneficial to everybody.

    In fact, the primitivism of northern Europeans with their high amount of steppe ancestry in the ancient World, and now their high degree of development in the modern World, is the best evidence *against* a genetic fatalistic outview on human society. If it were all to genetics, then northern Europeans should have always been more advanced than southern Europeans, which was definitely not the case for thousands of years. Only in the last 500 years or so did this become true. People and peoples change. 2,000 years is a very short scale in evolutionary terms, so at least most of the change can be attributed to environmental influences rather than genetic change.

    On your next visit home to Mexico, please turn left at the first pile of human heads.

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  181. Anon 2 says:
    @Mike1
    India is almost incomprehensibly chaotic and poorly run. As a people they seem clueless about what India is like. I've talked to several Indians who claim that India is physically the same as the West. They seem to be genuinely unaware that a garbage fire outside a mansion with pigs rooting through it is not something you see in Beverly Hills.
    India has zero chance of replicating China. They have almost certainly reached the limits of selling their people with cognitive talent to the West. This is their only real industry. The people getting exported from India now are not smarter than Western native populations: their sole talent is being willing to work very long hours.
    The Indian banking system is clearly nearing collapse. Control fraud is a way of life in India and banking systems rely on some honesty in their workforce.

    India’s population explosion – India adds 15 million people to
    its population every year – means that India can continue exporting
    its middle class to the U.S. at the rate of 70,000 a year into the foreseeable
    future, until the U.S. upper and upper middle class consists mostly
    of market-dominant minorities like the Indians, Chinese, and the Jews,
    with everybody else reduced to prole status. Not a pleasant prospect
    to contemplate, so hopefully it’s wrong.

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  182. @The Wobbly Guy
    I frikkin hate seeing the word 'revert' when 'reply' is the correct word to use. The misuse of 'revert' has long been a staple of Singapore's email lingo.

    I have actually not seen much Singlish as of late; people I talk to in Singapore write in proper English or proper Mandarin. Bully for you.

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  183. res says:
    @PiltdownMan
    Sorry for the trouble. Thank you for fixing the glitch.

    No problem. There are enough subtle special character issues with the automatic link creation that I have gotten into the habit of double checking links when I comment. Especially when they have unusual characters. I still miss some myself though.

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  184. res says:
    @Buddwing
    Back in 2010, Time published an article on Indians in NJ:

    After the law passed, when I was a kid, a few engineers and doctors from Gujarat moved to Edison because of its proximity to AT&T, good schools and reasonably priced, if slightly deteriorating, post–WW II housing. For a while, we assumed all Indians were geniuses. Then, in the 1980s, the doctors and engineers brought over their merchant cousins, and we were no longer so sure about the genius thing. In the 1990s, the not-as-brilliant merchants brought their even-less-bright cousins, and we started to understand why India is so damn poor.
     
    http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1999416,00.html

    That tidbit was accompanied by this at the end of the column:

    TIME responds: We sincerely regret that any of our readers were upset by this humor column of Joel Stein’s. It was in no way intended to cause offense.

    Joel Stein responds: I truly feel stomach-sick that I hurt so many people. I was trying to explain how, as someone who believes that immigration has enriched American life and my hometown in particular, I was shocked that I could feel a tiny bit uncomfortable with my changing town when I went to visit it. If we could understand that reaction, we’d be better equipped to debate people on the other side of the immigration issue.

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  185. Thomm says:
    @Edward
    An interesting article, and I am in complete agreement that the development of China and India will be incredibly consequential for the world. I have long held a fascination with India and I am developing such a fascination for China, too.

    A minor quibble: a dichotomy seems to pop up in the article, involving classifying India into 'Brahmin' and 'non-Brahmin' populations. In reality, India seems to me to be far more complex than that, demographically and ethnically speaking. Relatedly, it isn't just Brahmin Indians who do well in Western societies, for instance. If Brahmins were the only 'standout' group in India, it would be surprising to see Indian-Americans - including a significant chunk of non-Brahmin individuals - have the highest household incomes, the highest rate of graduate degree attainment, the highest SAT scores (according to old data from Arthur Hu) and, according to Richwine, IQs that may be around 112.

    Similarly, according to the UK Government's 'Ethnicity Facts and Figures' website, Indian students (most of whom are now third-generation in the UK) do best on some educational measures and, if not, come second to Chinese students. British-Indians also have the highest average incomes in the UK, according to the same official statistics. According to data published by Anatoly Karlin from 2009, British Indians seem to have average IQs of around 100. And I aver that British Indians - at least from my experience - are predominantly non-Brahmin, including many Kshatriyas from Northwestern India. Britain in the 1950s and 1960s was also far less selective than the United States is today when it encouraged people from its former colonies to emigrate to the UK.

    Thanks for this. I have come to similar conclusions as well.

    The simple-minded people here conflate ‘Brahmin Caste’, ‘Aryanness’, ‘Wealth’, and ‘IQ’ as if these things are precisely correlated. In reality, I was surprised to learn that half of the Indians in the US are not even Hindus.

    Plus, ‘whiteness’ was the determinant of which Indians are successful, then Pakistan would be much richer than Sri Lanka. In reality, the opposite is true. If this were correlated, then the highly successful Indian community in the US would be tall and light-skinned (i.e. Afghan-looking or Pakistani-looking), rather than short, dark, and tubby.

    I am a strong advocate of skilled-only immigration (and hence a strong opponent of unskilled immigration). For this, these fools think I am an Indian, and will probably accuse you of the same due to your comment.

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  186. MBlanc46 says:
    @Dieter Kief

    But there’s not much enthusiasm for China, either.

    In an age of postmodern postnationalism that worships diversity, China is old-fashioned. It’s homogeneous, nationalist, and modernist. China seems to have utilitarian 1950s values.
     

    That's even truer than your a tad too simplistic explanation for the rise of Nietzsche amongst Postmodernists (Foucault carrying on the flame of Nietzsche's dark arguments).

    My explanation for Nietzsche's overwhelming postmodern success is fairly straightfoward too, I have to admit: Nietzsche's work is the closest every thinker ever got to the pubertarian mindset of the unrestictable adventurous grandeur.

    To achieve this, he not only had to attack reason and power (be it worldy or otherworldy), but the modern world's foundation of those in reasonable exchange of arguments = the free discourse itself.

    For academic teachers, it is easier, to give in to their enthusiastic young scholar's Nietzschean attacks on the very foundations of the liberal academic (=the enlightened) world, than to openly resist them. (That's what now Jordan B. Peterson (for example) does). It wass about time, someone like him stood up against Nitzschean postmodernism. I wish him well!

    “Pubertarian”. Lovely. I’ll use it.

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    • Replies: @Dieter Kief
    Thanks. Now that you mention it - I'm such a humble man, that I hadn't even been aware that this adjective is not in the books and therefor kinda like - "somethin'".
    (Well - not quite aware ("so" - not totally humble, therefor, too - - ah - - - "it's all fractions, pieces of a mirror", as Jagger once put it (is this quote in Annie Leibovitz' tour-book? - Here I am - stuck again...)
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  187. MBlanc46 says:
    @rogue-one
    It's kind of strange.

    Russia is a declining power, America is the current hegemony, China is a rising power. In a more rational world, Russia & America would be allies trying to contain the rise of China.

    But instead, American trade and foreign policies are designed to help China & hurt Russia.

    It’s not national power or glory that drive things today, but maximum profit for bankers and capitalists.

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  188. MBlanc46 says:
    @pyrrhus
    First off, has anyone noticed that Taki isn’t taking comments?

    We've noticed...That, along with the popups makes it a no go site.

    It’s gone from being the first site I visited every day to a site I won’t visit even to read Steve Sailer’s article.

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  189. MBlanc46 says:
    @Anonymous
    I'd rather be governed by China than be governed by the EU or the USA.

    Like China, the EU is a an undemocratic dictatorship.
    But there the resemblance ends. The Chinese leadership runs China for the good of the Chinese people.
    The EU Commission, on the other hand seems to be run purely for the benefit of every third worlder who manages to bumrush his way in.

    As I said, China is run by the Chinese for the Chinese.
    By contrast white American men are - by government fiat - legislated third class citizens in terms of racial/sexual discrimination in employment, education, government spending etc.

    I don’t believe that the West is being run for every Third Worlder who turns up. Sure there are professional Do Gooders and Bleeding Hearts who go into paroxysms of joy at the thought of giving their homes and hearths and daughters to the wonderful, vibrant People of Color. But the principal beneficiaries of our social policies are the employers for whom Legacy Westerners have become too expensive and who wish to replace them with cheaper Third Worlders.

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  190. MBlanc46 says:
    @Daniel Chieh
    It is still strange, though. Typically right-leaning sites tend to be less eager to remove comments from what I've seen. It seems like a disappointing development.

    We enjoy shellacking Leftist trolls who show up, whereas their strategy is to silence any opposition.

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  191. MBlanc46 says:
    @Duke of Qin
    One caveat I need to make to Steve's assertion is that the Indians are more verbally agile than the Chinese is that I think most people are mistaking behavior with aptitude. The Chinese are actually stronger than the Indians in verbal reasoning and significantly stronger in quantitative, all the sizeable empirical data points to this even with the most selected of Indian population samples. What sets the Indian's apart from the Chinese is actually their loquaciousness, their love of hearing themselves talk, their extroversion, and their social fearlessness.

    The Indians are part of what can be accurately described as the Chutzpahsphere that stretches from Greece at the West and India in the East. It is the urheimat of what Steve's readers will recognize as the gold chain wearing men set with ground zero being the Levant. They are societies that produce people like Shmuely Boteach and Baba Ramdev far in abundance of what is expected. The Chinese, like all Northeastern Eurasians, are socially timid; shy and uncomfortable in unfamiliar social settings, and generally unwilling to stick their necks out. This is basically our biggest weakness and Indians' biggest advantage in open social interactions unguarded by cohesive ethnic gatekeeping, i.e. modern liberal multicultural societies. The elite Indians will naturally win out because they are more aggressive, aka "team players" and "management material".

    Unfortunately this doesn't do Indians in India much good because when the entire society is structured so that social extroversion is so heavily favoured, where everyone is to a degree an adept bullshitter, then you end up with the people who are supremely full of shit inevitably rising to the top.

    “Chutzpahsphere”. Delightful! I’ll use it.

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  192. MBlanc46 says:
    @JMcG
    Well, it may not be such a great loss, but when the Taki commenters start showing up here, I’m gone. Yan Shen is bad enough.

    Don’t let the door swat you in the rear end on the way oit.

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  193. MBlanc46 says:
    @Jason Liu
    Why? Democracy is in no way better than authoritarianism, on average. If anything it's the cause of most problems in developed countries.

    Democracy is certainly a cause of serious social and political conflict in non-homogeneous societies.

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  194. MBlanc46 says:
    @theMann
    China and India both have a future governed by one overriding fact:

    Sex selective abortion has caused a massive surplus of males over females. This is both country's future, and it is completely destabilizing.

    Men without hope of access to women are social TNT. Sooner or later they will explode.

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  195. @MBlanc46
    “Pubertarian”. Lovely. I’ll use it.

    Thanks. Now that you mention it – I’m such a humble man, that I hadn’t even been aware that this adjective is not in the books and therefor kinda like – “somethin’”.
    (Well – not quite aware (“so” – not totally humble, therefor, too – – ah – – – “it’s all fractions, pieces of a mirror“, as Jagger once put it (is this quote in Annie Leibovitz’ tour-book? – Here I am – stuck again…)

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  196. j says: • Website

    most of the change can be attributed to environmental influences rather than genetic change.

    Very rapid population genetic change is more probable. See Clark’s work on England.

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