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In my continuing attempt to cover the Jordan Peterson Phenomenon without sitting through dozens of hours of videos, here’s an appreciative article in Esquire by Wesley Yang:

The Passion of Jordan Peterson

Is this middle-aged Canadian college professor the philosopher our times need—or a dangerous anti-PC provocateur in tweed clothing?

BY WESLEY YANG WITH PHOTOGRAPHS BY JAKE STANGEL
MAY 1, 2018

Yang is a fairly sizable journalistic talent whose career was sidetracked in recent years by some personal problems, which he says Peterson’s lectures helped him get over.

Much of the confusion over Peterson seems to come from the interaction of three factors. Is Peterson a warrior against political correctness or a self-help guru for young men or a high-brow traditionalist pro-Western civilization intellectual in the mode of, say, Lord Kenneth Clark, star of the Civilization art history series in the late 1960s that pretty much invented the modern TV documentary?

The complication is that his three roles interact. His standing up to political correctness in Canada is how he came to the public’s attention, but it seems less central to his interests. On the other hand, speaking out against the latest dictatorial craziness about pronouns was crucial to his popularity because by his courage he demonstrated that he possesses strong character, which is part of what he advocates as a self-help guru.

Similarly, it’s radical of Peterson at present to call attention to the greatness of our heritage of Western civilization because the conventional wisdom is now that the Dead White European Males of the past did all they did just out of an evil conspiracy to make today’s ascendant Coalition of the Oppressed feel bad about their own lack of accomplishments down through history and today.

In turn, the Peterson phenomenon implies that this broad campaign by the upper reaches of the culture today to denigrate and demonize males and whites and white males contributes to their current anomie and fecklessness (without, of course, doing much to boost accomplishment by other groups, either).

Thus, Peterson’s endorsement of old individualistic standards of behavior and excellence is widely seen by The Establishment as racist and fascist because, they fear, that white males are likely to accomplish disproportionately more under objective standards. And the point of contemporary society is not to accomplish things, it’s too make some member of some groups feel better about themselves and have more money and to punish members of some other groups.

So, Peterson is seen as a dangerous radical for not being committed to this contemporary consensus.

 
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  1. The Z Blog says: • Website

    A few months ago I compared him to Stephen Covey: http://thezman.com/wordpress/?p=12851

    I’m agnostic on these guys. Maybe there is some utility in their very mild push back against the prevailing orthodoxy. They tend to come and go, so there is a chance they are just useful distractions for the people steamrolling the culture. Sort of like the opponent for a barnstorming professional team.

    His responses to the JQ stuff have been pointless and wacky, so I suspect he is not as clever as he lets on. He would have been wise to avoid the topic entirely. Staying in your lane is how you stay a guru.

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    • Replies: @Chrisnonymous
    Z-man, you wrote perceptively:

    There’s another unique twist to Peterson. He has used his status as victim of the Cult of Modern Liberalism to ingratiate himself with his audience. Most self-help guys eschew the victim stuff.
     
    Peterson is not the first person to try to transform the western philosophical traditions into self-help. Comparison with, for example, the success of Tom Morris of If Aristotle Ran General Motors... is instructive. As you note, Peterson's current popularity is tied to the ways in which he departs the normal self-help mold. He is, in a sense, providing self-help for people with significantly lowered expectations--young people who imagine themselves living up to their parents standard of living rather than imagine themselves becoming CEOs.
    , @AndrewR
    How could he avoid the topic entirely? I am not an expert on all this drama between Peterson, MacDonald, Pinker, etc, but my vague impression is that Peterson has repeatedly been explicitly asked to address the JQ by at least some semi-notable figures. I'm not going to attempt to verify this impression, because it would require a fair amount if work and it's not that important to me, but hopefully more-knowledgeable ["knowledgeabler" really ought to be a word] people can elucidate.

    More broadly, how can one be involved in anything resembling dissident-right politics while avoiding the JQ? He's made a big name for himself critiquing feminism and ostentatiously refusing to use trannies' preferred pronouns. No, he doesn't get to avoid the JQ entirely. "Staying in his lane" would mean doing what Roosh, Sailer and others do: acknowledging Jewish power without obsessing over it endlessly. He should have said "yes, there seems to be compelling Jewish power and privilege, but that stuff doesn't really interest me as much as feminism/leftism-in-general/etc." That's how he could maintain his integrity without stepping on too many (((toes))).
    , @Yak-15
    Peterson roughly fits your analogy of libertarians and free-market advocates to socialists and communists during the Cold War era. Peterson is systematically attacking many aspects of pc, social Marxist progressivism with logic and reason. He is doing this under a difficult to refute, moralist guise that employs aspects of psychology, philosophy and the classics of western canon. Peterson, though not as intellectually capable, mirrors Milton Friedman’s ability to deconstruct his opponents in public debates and demonlish tbeir arguments piecemeal.

    Most importantly, he appeals to young men and urges them to embrace their masculinity and improve their lives. Sure, he is not advocating for some of things you would prefer, but he is ripping apart our enemies and building up people to accept some of the basic premises of Paleoconservatism. This is monumentally important as there is no similar public voice that can bring impressionable young men to a political and philosophical position even close to our side.

    How can you not see his utility? Perhaps because your youth was not characterized by the complete moral, educational, religious and social grip that the Cathedral has on the major institutions today. As it stands now, nearly every adult in authority through every imaginable part of our children’s upbringing acts as a reinforcement mechanism of post-rational progressivism.

    Our young men (and some women) of today, like myself in the late 90s/early 2000s, intuitively understand that their minds are being poisoned. But they lack the intellectual tools to begin to understand exactly what is occurring and how to fight back. Peterson is the first real educational figure that supplies them with any semblance of an alternative view point that is not the mo-mo noise of mainstream conservatism.

    Peterson is a low-dose purple pill that spurs the kids to start looking for the stronger stuff.
    , @Rod1963
    At least he's pushing back, all the alt-right ever do was commit PR suicide at C'ville because the movement was led by a crank spewing WN mind porn to a bunch of white fools. Didn't any of the geniuses of the movement stop and think that Spencer was trouble? Nope, went right over their pointy heads.

    Frankly the HBD movement deserved the shellacking it got at Spencers goose stepping rally.

    And who's their new front man? A 19 year old greasy tongued kid. Again they are asking for trouble.

    Peterson gets attention because he does stand up against PC/MC and does it well. He's not one of our crazies. He's also providing help for young white men to get their heads on straight in a society and education system that hates them and wants them gone. Which is more than I can say for our side which has it's head up it's collective ass on such issues. All they do is endless "Look it's the Joos!!" posts or "see there are biological differences!", well duh, any high school kid doing FFA work could tell you that.

    We're way beyond that point of pointing out who the poisoners of society are and now onto figuring out how to stop them.

    To be blunt we need men of his caliber on our side. He's attracting the sort of people our side needs but can't attract because it's a one trick pony. HBD isn't enough to promote a alternative to the GOP and certainly insufficient to create a cultural movement to push back against the elites. Hell when I saw Spencer was our side's defacto front man, I found it sad and a sign of desperation.
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  2. Warner says:

    Steve, you are correct in everything you analyze regarding Jordan Peterson. But I would also recommend biting the bullet and setting aside 3 or 4 hours, maybe over a couple days to watch some videos. If you want recommendations, let me know. I’m leading a JP discussion group in NYC. We watch 5-20 minute clips and discuss. The group has grown 5x since we added his videos.

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    • Replies: @Jenner Ickham Errican

    But I would also recommend biting the bullet and setting aside 3 or 4 hours, maybe over a couple days to watch some videos.
     
    You serious?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvBm0ZUfe7I

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JErHX4HWu7c
    , @Stan Adams

    But I would also recommend biting the bullet and setting aside 3 or 4 hours, maybe over a couple days to watch some videos.
     
    I would bet you a significant chunk of money that Steve reads a lot faster than Jordan Peterson talks.

    Not being willing or able to set aside four hours over two days to watch some videos, I have to settle for the bits and snippets of information that I've been able to glean from various blog entries.

    Evidently Peterson thinks it's okay to be white. I think so, too, so I won't object to that point.

    Peterson says I should pet random homeless cats that I see on the street. (I'll pass on that one. I hate rabies more than I like cats.) He says I should clean my room. (I will, I promise.) And he says I should take my meds. (Been there, done that.)

    Supposedly Peterson believes that there are no absolute truths, only opinions or perceptions or whatever. Nothing is objectively true for everyone. I guess this is correct, in a sense. But my own subjective opinion is that someone who jumps off the Empire State Building because he thinks gravity is only a state of mind, or who attempts to "cure" pancreatic cancer by closing his eyes, clicking his heels, and wishing for the disease to go away, has his head wedged so far up his posterior that he's coughing up dandruff.

    Also, Peterson says that Jews are really smart, so we shouldn't mind the fact that they dominate many key industries. (The SJWs say this makes him a Nazi; the Nazis say it makes him a Jew-lover.)

    That's about all I can remember.

    Oh, wait ... isn't he supposed to be the Antichrist, or something? Someone told me he was the Antichrist. Or maybe I read that over on Vox Day's blog.

    Truthfully, I don't have much use for philosophers. I'm old enough to know what I like and don't like, want and don't want, need and don't need. Over the years, I have developed firm convictions about the meaning of life and the nature of the universe. I'm always open to new insights, but I'm not especially eager to adopt an entirely new belief system just because I read about it in a book. And I'm not particularly interested in hearing the latest trendy official-opposition author's navel-gazings about the true purpose of existence.
    , @AnotherDad

    But I would also recommend biting the bullet and setting aside 3 or 4 hours, maybe over a couple days to watch some videos. If you want recommendations, let me know.
     
    Just give them to us.

    I'm with Steve, i find the video thing a low flow information spigot. I do watch a few videos in order to fix stuff where the visual information matters--ex. here's how to reattach my sink to a granite countertop; ok great, now i can do it. But where it doesn't matter i can read much, much faster.

    You're a Jordan Peterson guy--great. Give us the top 3-5 you'd recommend. I'm an old dude a bit north of Steve's age, like several regulars here. I probably won't become a Peterson regular regardless. But my son's a young guy ... but i'd want to see value before telling him to go watch Peterson.
    , @danand
    My recommendation would be to watch the older vids; lectures from his classes, prior to his post "courtesy titles" fame. In general they are both entertaining & informative. His Dwayne Schneider (Pat Harrington, Jr.) look in these early vids seems more genuine Jordan than his current look; which he almost had to adopt given his new influence/audience. He hasn't quite yet mastered that "wise old sage" look that I think he's after?
    Viewing a few of his more recent, exhausting, diatribes; I'm left with no doubt he is of superior intellect and is passionate about his message. He may be another flash in the pan, having no affect other than to torpedo his own career; but he's worth a look.
    , @Lamar Jackson
    When and where is this? Assuming it doesn't conflict with my schedule, I'd be interested in attending.
    , @J.Ross
    Could you broadly describe this group? Did they have or get familiarity with Jung or are they mainly interested in the political stuff?
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  3. JohnnyD says:

    In my opinion, Peterson isn’t all that reactionary. He’s basically a liberal stuck in the early 1990′s, when Canada was still a somewhat serious country.

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    • Replies: @JoelsBlog
    Seriously??? Is that what you think? Are you trying to say Canada is no longer serious?

    Visit JoelsBlog for the Latest News in Nigeria
    , @Cagey Beast
    You wrote: ".... when Canada was still a somewhat serious country". Is the US of A a serious country? I'd say it is. It's a serious country in the same way a drunk waving a loaded firearm around is a serious situation.
    , @MBlanc46
    That’s about it. He’s a center-Leftist who missed the identity grievance. That he’s perceived as a Right-wing extremist is an indicator of how screwed we are.
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  4. eah says:

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    • Agree: Charles Pewitt, TheBoom
    • Replies: @eah
    Reminds me of people who complain politics is too fractious or divisive -- that's the whole fucking point: to present people with genuine alternatives.

    https://twitter.com/RichardBSpencer/status/996088017004716033
    , @Thirdeye
    The Broken Clock Effect comes into play!

    What's missing from the Free Speech discussion is denunciation of the heinous measures taken at the governmental level against the BDS movement.
    , @Whiskey
    I love Zionism and think it should be a shining example like Irish Independence to other Whites.

    America should copy Israel especially its border walls pronto. And treat Mexico like Lebanon.
    , @Yngvar
    Zionism is just the Jewish word for 'nationalism'. It's not in any particular way controversial.
    'Identity politics' are intra-national positional jockeying for resources; a cancer on society, on community and on communal cohesion, and – you guessed it – a derivative of Marxism.
    , @Jeffrey S.
    This comment from RAMZPAUL is silly. Zionism is a nationalistic project -- there is nothing strange or bizarre about wishing the Russians well, hoping for the best for Chile and the Chilean people , thinking the Finish nation is worthy of protection and defense; and finally, cheering on the success of the Jewish people in Israel.
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  5. Luke Lea says:

    I am going to see Peterson in Nashville on June 10. Actually I am going to see who the audience is. I certainly don’t agree with everything Peterson says. He’s big on Nietzsche for instance, whom I frankly despise, and he can be sloppy with his historical dates, etc.. His Biblical interpretations are psychological whereas mine are economic/historical (see below) but none of that matters. I see him as a breath of fresh air in the shifting cultural winds.

    On the Adam and Eve myth: https://goo.gl/uikvFb

    On the Hebraic conception of God: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ie7d7efepZqFvwcCG-WNGlxyXKIpssU0ge3KM9o50K0/edit?usp=sharing

    On the teachings of Jesus: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ie7d7efepZqFvwcCG-WNGlxyXKIpssU0ge3KM9o50K0/edit?usp=sharing

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    • Replies: @Wokeasf
    "He’s big on Nietzsche for instance, whom I frankly despise"

    Interesting - why do you despise N?
    , @Davosbane
    Interesting take on Adam and Eve.
    Did the professor respond to your letter? Did he share anything insightful?
    , @JohnnyD
    He's also sloppy when it comes to Russian literature. While watching some of his videos about Dostoevsky, I kept noticing that Peterson was mixing up some of the plot details in Crime and Punishment and The Brothers Karamazov. You would think a serious intellectual would prepare his lectures better.
    , @larry lurker

    I am going to see Peterson in Nashville on June 10. Actually I am going to see who the audience is.
     
    Nashville is a little too far for me, but your post inspired me to look up his schedule to see if he's doing anything closer - just ordered tickets for Charlotte on June 10th. Thanks! (BTW, Nashville is on the 11th according to Peterson's website.)

    The Charlotte venue is Ovens Auditorium. No comment.
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  6. Anonymous[241] • Disclaimer says:

    Much of the confusion over Peterson seems to come from the interaction of three factors.

    But you know most of the confusion is about whether Peterson is a safe way to mellow out potential alt-righters or a gateway drug to far worse thoughtcrime.

    Read More
    • Replies: @BB753
    The reason he's being atacked is because he's perceived as a gateway drug to the stronger stuff for Generation Z.
    , @Lagertha
    Your idea is excellent. I also think JohnnyD (#3) and Ramzpaul (#4) are accurate. I think Peterson may have been ambitious for a long time; truly believed in many of his ideas, but....he discovered the lost boys (my sons age group). Next, he made a Faustian deal with producers to try to bring young white men under control. I know this sounds dumb: what if instead of heroin (or, heroin not wasting enough white guys fast enough), Peterson is set up to seduce them into compliance with his est-like therapy sessions? I'm really dating myself by referring to est, haha!
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  7. eah says:
    @eah
    https://twitter.com/ramzpaul/status/995587014258036736

    Reminds me of people who complain politics is too fractious or divisive — that’s the whole fucking point: to present people with genuine alternatives.

    Read More
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  8. utu says:

    old individualistic standards of behavior

    Whatever they are and if they ever existed then they are responsible for getting us to where we are now. Would watching John Wayne movies help?

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  9. If, Steve, you are going to champion the old elites (which of course I applaud) then at least learn how they refer to themselves. There never was a “Lord Kenneth Clark”, who, had he existed, would have been the younger son of either a duke or a marquess. An example of this set, one you have more than once referred to here, was Lord Randolph Churchill, younger son of the Duke of Marlborough and father of that old fraud Winston.

    Kenneth Clark was awarded a life peerage in 1969 as “Baron Clark of Saltwood in the County of Kent”.
    “Baron” is never used in pubic discourse or in a social setting, but only in legal documents of a kind increasingly rare; thus he, and any other baron, is always referred to as “Lord X”, in has case, of course, simply as “Lord Clark”.

    There is, I promise you, a distinct satisfaction in getting these things right.

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    • Agree: Percy Gryce
    • LOL: Simon in London
    • Replies: @Lot
    The safest policy to to recognize our nation's abolition of titles of nobility, and just call him Citizen Clark, Comrade Ken, or dude.
    , @Dave Pinsen
    Why does "Lord" attach to the last name, but "Sir" attach to the first?
    , @theo the kraut

    “Baron” is never used in pubic discourse or in a social setting, but only in legal documents of a kind increasingly rare; thus he, and any other baron, is always referred to as “Lord X”, in has case, of course, simply as “Lord Clark”. There is, I promise you, a distinct satisfaction in getting these things right.
     
    There is, I promise you, a distinct satisfaction in pubic discourse.
    , @Liza
    “Baron” is never used in pubic discourse or in a social setting

    What particular kind of pubic [sic] discourse? Jes' askin'.
    , @Anon
    Yes, this British peerage stuff is fascinating. I knew absolutely noting about it until I read the recent Times article (paywall) about the campaign to retroactively revoke the peerage of the late Marquess Alfred Hawthorne "Benny" Hill for numerous offensive activities during his lifetime.

    Also, they toppled a statue of him on a steed that the city of Southampton had erected in 1995 in front of the Hollister entrance to the Westquay shopping center.
    , @sb
    Hear hear
    For my part I've long been appalled as to how few ostensibly educated people seem to be aware of the correct way to address the daughter of a marquis
    , @anonymous
    I once knew a guy whose hobby was royalty and nobility and stuff like that. He got magazines and could talk for hours about the Duke of Kent's cousin being the Count of Romania etc. Seemed like harmless fun, just like I'd compare stats about Duke Snider and Del Ennis. Tastes differ. My view is that nobility and royalty are ready for the ash heap, since they veered into Princess Camilla Parker Bowles, Baron Ringo Starr, and Lord Sir Mick Jagger. I have a feeling guys like the Duke of Edinburgh would sort of agree with me.
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  10. Spud Boy says:

    Peterson’s appeal is that he’s able to put forth a moral framework for living without appeals to supernatural authority or 2000 year old texts. He frames religion as collection of stories that represent man’s collective wisdom that should not be thrown away just because the supernatural elements of religion can’t be proven scientifically.

    His displays of wisdom and common sense directly conflict with the views of the Regressive Left, which has increasingly taken over the humanities departments of Western universities, where they proselytize a religion of their own–a religion of “structural racism”, “oppressive patriarchy”, “gender fluidity”, “equity”, “diversity” and “inclusion.” Peterson’s has displayed tremendous courage in taking on these forces of ignorance, putting his own personal safety and reputation on the line in the process.

    Peterson is also quite humble and willing to recognize that he might be wrong–something refreshing in this era of arrogant YouTube personalities, many of whom are all sizzle and no steak.

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    • Agree: jim jones
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  11. Wokeasf says:
    @Luke Lea
    I am going to see Peterson in Nashville on June 10. Actually I am going to see who the audience is. I certainly don't agree with everything Peterson says. He's big on Nietzsche for instance, whom I frankly despise, and he can be sloppy with his historical dates, etc.. His Biblical interpretations are psychological whereas mine are economic/historical (see below) but none of that matters. I see him as a breath of fresh air in the shifting cultural winds.

    On the Adam and Eve myth: https://goo.gl/uikvFb

    On the Hebraic conception of God: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ie7d7efepZqFvwcCG-WNGlxyXKIpssU0ge3KM9o50K0/edit?usp=sharing

    On the teachings of Jesus: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ie7d7efepZqFvwcCG-WNGlxyXKIpssU0ge3KM9o50K0/edit?usp=sharing

    “He’s big on Nietzsche for instance, whom I frankly despise”

    Interesting – why do you despise N?

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    • Replies: @Luke Lea
    “He’s big on Nietzsche for instance, whom I frankly despise”

    "Interesting – why do you despise N?"

    For his egotism. His narcissistic self-hero worship. His pagan neo-aristocratic self-glorifying world view, made ridiculous by his Walter Middy like character. He was also a drug addict and it shows.

    , @Currahee
    "Mitty", actually.
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  12. Jordan Peterson makes over $60,000 a month on patreon.

    So, whatever the merits of his message, he is clearly doing something right!

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  13. BB753 says:
    @Anonymous

    Much of the confusion over Peterson seems to come from the interaction of three factors.
     
    But you know most of the confusion is about whether Peterson is a safe way to mellow out potential alt-righters or a gateway drug to far worse thoughtcrime.

    The reason he’s being atacked is because he’s perceived as a gateway drug to the stronger stuff for Generation Z.

    Read More
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  14. Peterson Schmeterson. I’m more interested in this statement.

    “Yang is a fairly sizable journalistic talent…”

    Is this even a viable thing to be anymore? I don’t simply mean a ‘journalistic’ talent. I mean a MainStreamMedia talent, or publically popular talent, or the whole idea of a ‘spokesman’-for the age, for the status quo, for the standard view, for whatever. The very idea could apply to any personality who is being touted as the ‘next thing’ in written or observational insight (one example of many: Ronin Farrow).

    Because while I used to consume information based on those motivations (again, an example of many: I used to like to read George Will-30ish years ago. I’d follow certain writers because they generally had something useful to say)-I don’t consume anything with the view that ‘this guy, employed by X (Washington Post, Slate, National Review, whatever) is saying something IMPORTANT.

    Rather, I surf the internet, and feel I get more information from blog posts like this one (and, just as importantly, from the comment section that follows) than from any employed, mainstream voice. If I were to see an interesting article in an MSM venue (say, interesting human interest story in Sports Illustrated), I’d not presume the rest are good and start reading Sports Illustrated-rather, I”d continue to surf and find the next interesting thing-I’d revisit Sports Illustrated based on new buzz about a new article rather than out of loyalty, or memories of that first article.

    I’d rather read four of your posts (and many others) than put in the effort to read a weekly column by Joe X, of the Washington Post. And if you (or anyone else) decided to stop blogging, well, there are dozens of others to replace you.

    I think its a very good thing-its a slow return to the natural order of many different voices that existed before the great consolidation of the late 20th century. But it is very clearly a different way to consume information, and learn, and the idea of a ‘sizeable journalistic talent’ seems very archaic in this environment. If he was any good, he’d have a blog!

    joe

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    • Replies: @J.Ross
    Was Will ever a journalist? Yes, there is such a thing as "journalism" in a serious sense -- there are even responsible university area studies and objective humanities -- no matter how rare and abused these fields have become or how simple they look from outside. Ronan Farrow is a big deal because he lines up checkable statements that derail careers, not because he's the guy of the moment.
    Back when universal IT departments were relatively new, a guy was caught literally googling the answer; people with real certs picked up on him right away, end users saw nothing wrong. Some things are easy to fake (Zakaria, in fact every single person at CNN) but the real thing still exists.
    , @Harry Baldwin
    I agree with your take on this. I occasionally hear about a worthwhile article in National Review that I might take the time to look up, but I dropped my subscription to the magazine 15 years ago and wouldn't bother to visit NRO.
    , @Steve Sailer
    I mention Wesley Yang's name because he has been doing some interesting stuff lately after a period in which he wasn't doing as much. In his Peterson article, Yang mentions that he had gone through a career slump due to vaguely described personal problems, which helps explain my recent observation that here is somebody who seems like a mature talent but I'd barely heard of him before.

    In general, I pay attention to other opinion journalists for reasons of fandom, envy, and to figure out where they are coming from and how they are evolving. Also, name brand writers have a little more leeway to write things of interest than do the hordes of clickbait-churning interns, who are being evaluated on how fast they can generate the Usual.

    Obviously, there's a fair amount of inside baseball to my coverage of other pundits, and readers who aren't interested in the subject are free to skip over it. But, obviously, I'm not going to stop doing something that I find interesting and am pretty good at.
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  15. Jordan Peterson seems like a gateway drug to me. Peterson-ism is not great but it beats the hell out of bugman-ism and nihilism as far as I can tell.

    And you could say he is better for White young men than a lot of “hardcore alt right”. “Clean up your room” is much more useful advice than “wake up normies to the JQ!!” He’s done a hell of a lot more for lost Whites than say Paul Nehlen.

    I also think the fixation with him being on some UN panel is way off. Sorry he’s not a loser shitposting in his pajamas all the time and people out in the real world respect him and value his input? If you want to win, you need people like this.

    I’m curious to see where he goes and how this plays out.

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    • Agree: NickG
    • Replies: @Feix...

    Jordan Peterson seems like a gateway drug to me. Peterson-ism is not great but it beats the hell out of bugman-ism and nihilism as far as I can tell.

    And you could say he is better for White young men than a lot of “hardcore alt right”. “Clean up your room” is much more useful advice than “wake up normies to the JQ!!” He’s done a hell of a lot more for lost Whites than say Paul Nehlen.
     
    Disagree. Racial conflict will be ratcheted up against whites whether they like it or not. It's not a war we can "mellow out" over and choose not to fight unless the genius plan is to get slaughtered like cattle. Not that the current iteration of the hard right is anything to salivate over, but it's an improvement over the pathetic, obese "white supremacist" hicks of decades past. It's by no means an acceptable, let alone finished, product, but it's a small step in the right direction if whites are ever to wake up and form a shield wall before they are totally surrounded and destroyed.

    How convenient then that Jordan Peterson rises up from the netherworld of obscurity at just the right time to tell his predominantly young white male audience to take a chill pill, ignore "identity politics" and go back to the atomized individual shtick. The identity of Peterson's audience is key here. If his message was reaching the blacks, the "Latinx" and the whites equally, I'd not be complaining. But it's not. It's directed to and most effective with young white males, and neuters their nascent movement towards identity politics, ie self preservation. As such, I can only view the rise of Jordan Peterson as the machinery of unilateral disarmament. That the mainstream media chooses not to silence/ignore him but to promote him is all the corroborating evidence anyone should need to determine whose bread he's buttering.
    , @Rod1963
    As a old Paleocon guy(56), I quite agree with your view of Peterson. He's something good for young white guys who are totally abandoned by contemporary culture and a education system that just wants to drug the more curious ones into zombies. They are getting hate from all sides simply for being white and male.

    Yes his advice is much more useful for young whites - hell getting your head on straight before doing anything is a must. Peterson wants people to succeed. In this he is far more useful and relevant than some HBD type ranting endlessly about Jews or IQ. Which does exactly nothing for these young men except make them angry.

    And our movement needs men of his caliber if we want to win. That much is certain. Right now we have no one approaching his level and reach. That has to change if alt-right is to grow and become relevant.
    , @Twinkie

    And you could say he is better for White young men than a lot of “hardcore alt right”. “Clean up your room” is much more useful advice than “wake up normies to the JQ!!” He’s done a hell of a lot more for lost Whites than say Paul Nehlen.
     
    The problem with many ideologues - be they Randians, traditional conservatives, alt-right, white nationalists, whatever - is that they see their ideas as ends in themselves. In reality, PEOPLE are the ends, or more accurately the betterment of people should be the ends. Ideas are good to the extent their adoption helps people achieve their higher aims in life, both material and transcendental.

    The part of the interview I found notable was this:

    The local librarian, who was married to the head of the NDP, Canada’s social-democratic party, identified Peterson as a young man of promise and gave him a schooling in the great books. He spent his youth as a committed socialist before growing disillusioned with the character of his fellow travelers, whom he came to regard as motivated by resentment. At the same time, he met some conservative small-business owners who earned his grudging admiration. “It produced a fair bit of cognitive dissonance for me,” he says. “Because ostensibly, I didn’t admire the conservative ethos. But I certainly admired the people.”
     
    At the end of the day, if you want to convince others and set them on the right path, you have to be a model, an admirable model at that. The reason conservatism went badly wrong in the last 30 years was that it became dominated by those who gave intellectual license to plunder the commonwealth. Its leaders were corrupted by wealth and status (and briefly, power) rather than being paragons of virtue. How many conservative thought leaders had their own house in order?

    I see something similar in the nascent, so-called, alt-right movement, which is currently powered by resentment (understandable resentment, but still resentment). A politics of resentment is initially potent, but is bound to end in tears for all involved, because it is ultimately destructive (and frequently self-destructive) rather than constructive.

    What we need today are leaders of a political movement who are self-sacrificing and noble, courageous people who do not shy away from a fight that needs to be fought, but who are also capable of rallying people to build something better and more morally uplifting for their own individual selves and for the society at large.

    At the end of the day, winning politics - and winning political ideas - in the long run is one which helps a broad segment of the population and enhances social cohesion and consensus. That might not be an initially appealing message for angry young women (be they white or something else), but it is what is needed.
    , @LondonBob
    With Paul Ryan retiring Nehlen would have a chance of taking his seat, foolish on his part.
    , @Yak-15
    “If you want to win, you need people like this.”

    This is important. The best criticism on the alt-right is that they are a bunch of losers.
    , @guest
    If you're a lost soul who's at a level where "clean up your room" can help, politics, philosophy, and higher culture in general aren't your concern. You may as well be listening to Tony Robbins or Dale Carnegie.

    Your false dichotomy between being stuck in your mom's basement and being out there in the real world writing reports for John Podesta and the U.N. is a new one on me. There are about a billion ways to make it in the world. We just so happen to have to listen to one who's a psychologist (red flag), mentally ill (red flag), former (?) socialist (red flag), Canadian (at least enough to give you pause), who suddenly became one of our leading "public intellectuals" out of nowhere (red flag), whose main concern is to help the easily led and manipulated (red flag), and happened to work for the U.N. (giant red flag), with ties to unsavory figures like Podesta (red flag) and (indirectly) Soros (biggest red flag).

    I don't know your experience, but some of us have been here before. I remember what it was like to learn Bill Buckley was a fraud. This "intellectual dark web" thing, it's not one-one hundredth as convincing. Then go look at Peterson's videos, and you realize he's a fraud. Intelligent and a decent performer, but under- or miseducated, superficial, and a fanboy of various popular proto-existential figures like Nietzsche and Dostoyevsky, plus the New Age guru Jung. Who are easy to be into, because they're fun to read. And who attract screwed-up people. Most importantly, there are various "tells" that he's selling snake oil. Long pauses, awkward laughter, half-truths and gorilla dust.

    If Peterson acts as a gateway, that's good. But it's by accident. His political purpose is twofold: serve as a net to keep falling libs from going to the dark side, and serve as a gate to keep the real right out of the mainstream. What he offers is center-left neoliberalism shorn of the more obviously insane aspects of political correctness. You get a bit of traditional Western culture, but without much of anything that makes it meaningful. Christianity without Christ. Stuff you don't really believe in, but the stories are fun and instructive.

    Radical individualism to boot, which won't be psychologically healthy in the long-run. Somehow you're allowed to create Truth for yourself, and you can establish your own meaning on a bed of sand. But you can't ever, never, ever get involved in ideology or have a group identity. Because that way lies Holocaust/Holodomor. Every time! Inevitably.

    That's what is so dangerous about Peterson. Because though he gives out some good things, he cuts off the necessary things. Without identity politics and proper ideological, Western civilization is dead. Dead.

    , @The preferred nomenclature is...
    Spot on, as was Mr. Sailer's post.

    The commenters on this blog seem to get more autistic by the day. If you are not absolutely 100% in line with their views about absolutely everything you should be burned at the stake is getting a little old around here.

    Hell, at least Tiny Duck is funny.
    , @James Solbakken
    "I also think the fixation with him being on some UN panel is way off. "

    Any connection to the United Nations is a huge red flag. You need to study the history of the UN before you dismiss the concern with his working for them on one of their reports. If I knew nothing else about JBP besides the UN thing I would know that he was a snake in the grass.
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  16. @Warner
    Steve, you are correct in everything you analyze regarding Jordan Peterson. But I would also recommend biting the bullet and setting aside 3 or 4 hours, maybe over a couple days to watch some videos. If you want recommendations, let me know. I'm leading a JP discussion group in NYC. We watch 5-20 minute clips and discuss. The group has grown 5x since we added his videos.

    But I would also recommend biting the bullet and setting aside 3 or 4 hours, maybe over a couple days to watch some videos.

    You serious?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Warner
    If one wants to be more familiar with the JBP phenomenon, yes. You prefer what, second hand sources?
    , @Bliss
    Holy shit!

    He clearly has mental issues. After checking some relevant videos on YouTube he seems to be suffering from congenital depression:

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=H4DlHBSNJL4


    At 33 seconds into the video.
    , @John Achterhof
    I suppose that first video is appropriate for a thread on the Passion of Jordan Peterson. I haven't seen much of his work but as far as I can tell a recent comment on Unz by stillCARealist aptly describes the Essential Peterson:

    "He’s basically a social conservative dwelling in a world of extreme social liberals. He advocates for life long marriage and children, abandoning porn, staying sober, working hard at something you’re good at, saving, telling the truth, helping others, Christianity-lite, eating less, getting off meds if you can, and much more. This is the heart of conservatism, the restraining of the appetites and the impulses to make profitable long-term decisions."

    Fundamentally, it's common-sense stuff - and much needed in this age of loosened restraints. Throw off your attachments to modern distractions and take on yourself. I'm sure it can be life-changing for those encountering this content that have no one around to tell them this. Within the realm of practical philosophy - street philosophy - there are 1) political philosophers concerned with societal welfare and freedom, and 2) existential philosophers concerned primarily with the emancipation/development of the individual out of his own irrational nature. Peterson is clearly based in that second camp. In a time of a modern decadence that would be unimaginable to the ancient Romans that gave meaning to the term, Peterson stands nearly alone among the ruins, endeavoring to restore civilization from the ground up.
    , @bored identity
    bored identity strongly believes that only a hollow bastard would refuse to bite the bullet, and avoid being profoundly touched by J. Hitlerson's bang whimper:


    https://youtu.be/PR31wWNKuYg?t=59s


    bored identity is a hollow bastard.
    , @415 reasons
    In that first video he seems demented.
    , @bored identity
    bored identity strongly believes that only a hollow bastard would refuse to bite the bullet, and avoid being profoundly touched by J. Hitlerson's bang whimper:


    https://youtu.be/PR31wWNKuYg?t=59s


    bored identity is a hollow bastard.
    , @Mr. Anon
    I have heard a little about this guy recently, but never seen any of his videos. My only exposure to him was an interview he did on the Tucker Carlson show.

    But - yeah - if that's representative of them, then..............I'll pass.
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  17. DFH says:

    You forgot his role as friend of the Jews, preventer of another Holocaust and turner-away of young (white) males from evil ‘identity politics’ like taking pride in the accomplishments of their ancestors or not wanting to see their people be replaced by foreigners in their own countries.

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  18. njguy73 says:

    The complication is that his three roles interact.

    The young adult book series which may end up the most prophetic will probably not be The Hunger Games, but Divergent. It’s not forcing people to compete that will make our society dysfunctional, but when people are forbidden to compete.

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  19. Feix... says:
    @27 year old
    Jordan Peterson seems like a gateway drug to me. Peterson-ism is not great but it beats the hell out of bugman-ism and nihilism as far as I can tell.

    And you could say he is better for White young men than a lot of "hardcore alt right". "Clean up your room" is much more useful advice than "wake up normies to the JQ!!" He's done a hell of a lot more for lost Whites than say Paul Nehlen.

    I also think the fixation with him being on some UN panel is way off. Sorry he's not a loser shitposting in his pajamas all the time and people out in the real world respect him and value his input? If you want to win, you need people like this.

    I'm curious to see where he goes and how this plays out.

    Jordan Peterson seems like a gateway drug to me. Peterson-ism is not great but it beats the hell out of bugman-ism and nihilism as far as I can tell.

    And you could say he is better for White young men than a lot of “hardcore alt right”. “Clean up your room” is much more useful advice than “wake up normies to the JQ!!” He’s done a hell of a lot more for lost Whites than say Paul Nehlen.

    Disagree. Racial conflict will be ratcheted up against whites whether they like it or not. It’s not a war we can “mellow out” over and choose not to fight unless the genius plan is to get slaughtered like cattle. Not that the current iteration of the hard right is anything to salivate over, but it’s an improvement over the pathetic, obese “white supremacist” hicks of decades past. It’s by no means an acceptable, let alone finished, product, but it’s a small step in the right direction if whites are ever to wake up and form a shield wall before they are totally surrounded and destroyed.

    How convenient then that Jordan Peterson rises up from the netherworld of obscurity at just the right time to tell his predominantly young white male audience to take a chill pill, ignore “identity politics” and go back to the atomized individual shtick. The identity of Peterson’s audience is key here. If his message was reaching the blacks, the “Latinx” and the whites equally, I’d not be complaining. But it’s not. It’s directed to and most effective with young white males, and neuters their nascent movement towards identity politics, ie self preservation. As such, I can only view the rise of Jordan Peterson as the machinery of unilateral disarmament. That the mainstream media chooses not to silence/ignore him but to promote him is all the corroborating evidence anyone should need to determine whose bread he’s buttering.

    Read More
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  20. Warner says:
    @Jenner Ickham Errican

    But I would also recommend biting the bullet and setting aside 3 or 4 hours, maybe over a couple days to watch some videos.
     
    You serious?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvBm0ZUfe7I

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JErHX4HWu7c

    If one wants to be more familiar with the JBP phenomenon, yes. You prefer what, second hand sources?

    Read More
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  21. Yang says in reference to Peterson’s book:

    As of this writing, it is a best-selling nonfiction title in the U. S., Canada, the UK, Australia, and New Zealand.

    I say:

    The United States, Australia, Canada, England and New Zealand are connected by blood and spirit. Electronic intelligence gathering also.

    The five Anglo-Celtic and Anglo-Saxon and Anglo-Norman nations are under attack from mass immigration and multiculturalism. The USA, England, Canada, New Zealand and Australia are being flooded with foreigners in order to destroy cultural cohesion and national sovereignty.

    Jordan Peterson is being pushed by the enemies of the historic ancestral cores of the USA, England, New Zealand, Australia and Canada in order to render the young people of those nations insensate of the true civilizational battle that is unfolding.

    Jordan Peterson is evil.

    Read More
    • Replies: @WhatYouSay1234
    What are you talking about? Why is Jordan Peterson evil? Because he is getting people to think? Because he is opposing the people who are trying to control our thought and our speech? Why are there so many troglodytes and mental midgets typing aimlessly on the Internet? Is Peterson for mass immigration or multiculturalism? What are you talking about?
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  22. Lot says:
    @Old Palo Altan
    If, Steve, you are going to champion the old elites (which of course I applaud) then at least learn how they refer to themselves. There never was a "Lord Kenneth Clark", who, had he existed, would have been the younger son of either a duke or a marquess. An example of this set, one you have more than once referred to here, was Lord Randolph Churchill, younger son of the Duke of Marlborough and father of that old fraud Winston.

    Kenneth Clark was awarded a life peerage in 1969 as "Baron Clark of Saltwood in the County of Kent".
    "Baron" is never used in pubic discourse or in a social setting, but only in legal documents of a kind increasingly rare; thus he, and any other baron, is always referred to as "Lord X", in has case, of course, simply as "Lord Clark".

    There is, I promise you, a distinct satisfaction in getting these things right.

    The safest policy to to recognize our nation’s abolition of titles of nobility, and just call him Citizen Clark, Comrade Ken, or dude.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Hubbub
    Back in my British Lit days, I was taught (by teachers and printed material) to refer to authors with titles, especially Lords, in the following way:

    Alfred, Lord Tennyson

    for example.

    I would suppose that Kenneth Clark would in a similar vein, be referenced as

    Kenneth, Lord Clark
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  23. Jordan Peterson is a globalist who proudly wrote the underlying narrative for the 2013 UN Sustainable Development (Open Your Borders for the Zeroth Amendment) report before he got famous.

    He is controlled opposition and openly despises anyone who is proud of their race or national heritage.

    Read More
    • Disagree: YetAnotherAnon
    • Replies: @YetAnotherAnon
    But despite that, he is most famous where I come from for standing up to feminist idiocy, idiocy which is now the default position and declared policy of my 'conservative' government.

    That's pretty important in a world where the entire education system is feminised.

    You can't expect him to agree with you (or me) about everything.
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  24. Anonymous[196] • Disclaimer says:

    Grant Cardone’s secret to crushing it in life. No drugs, no Rx drugs, no alcohol, eat light, get up at 4 a.m., exercise, hustle for 17 hours straight per day, and sell to survive. A poor student with a degree from McNeese State who started out as a cars salesman after college and is now worth $300 million from sales and real estate.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AndrewR
    That sleazebag is not someone any decent person would want to emulate.
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  25. @Warner
    Steve, you are correct in everything you analyze regarding Jordan Peterson. But I would also recommend biting the bullet and setting aside 3 or 4 hours, maybe over a couple days to watch some videos. If you want recommendations, let me know. I'm leading a JP discussion group in NYC. We watch 5-20 minute clips and discuss. The group has grown 5x since we added his videos.

    But I would also recommend biting the bullet and setting aside 3 or 4 hours, maybe over a couple days to watch some videos.

    I would bet you a significant chunk of money that Steve reads a lot faster than Jordan Peterson talks.

    Not being willing or able to set aside four hours over two days to watch some videos, I have to settle for the bits and snippets of information that I’ve been able to glean from various blog entries.

    Evidently Peterson thinks it’s okay to be white. I think so, too, so I won’t object to that point.

    Peterson says I should pet random homeless cats that I see on the street. (I’ll pass on that one. I hate rabies more than I like cats.) He says I should clean my room. (I will, I promise.) And he says I should take my meds. (Been there, done that.)

    Supposedly Peterson believes that there are no absolute truths, only opinions or perceptions or whatever. Nothing is objectively true for everyone. I guess this is correct, in a sense. But my own subjective opinion is that someone who jumps off the Empire State Building because he thinks gravity is only a state of mind, or who attempts to “cure” pancreatic cancer by closing his eyes, clicking his heels, and wishing for the disease to go away, has his head wedged so far up his posterior that he’s coughing up dandruff.

    Also, Peterson says that Jews are really smart, so we shouldn’t mind the fact that they dominate many key industries. (The SJWs say this makes him a Nazi; the Nazis say it makes him a Jew-lover.)

    That’s about all I can remember.

    Oh, wait … isn’t he supposed to be the Antichrist, or something? Someone told me he was the Antichrist. Or maybe I read that over on Vox Day’s blog.

    Truthfully, I don’t have much use for philosophers. I’m old enough to know what I like and don’t like, want and don’t want, need and don’t need. Over the years, I have developed firm convictions about the meaning of life and the nature of the universe. I’m always open to new insights, but I’m not especially eager to adopt an entirely new belief system just because I read about it in a book. And I’m not particularly interested in hearing the latest trendy official-opposition author’s navel-gazings about the true purpose of existence.

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  26. Anonymous[396] • Disclaimer says:

    Apparently Peterson’s a pill popper telling people to buck up:

    Read More
    • Agree: Charles Pewitt
    • Replies: @dfordoom

    Apparently Peterson’s a pill popper telling people to buck up:
     
    Personally I can't think of a better role model for our young men than a chronically depressed drug-dependent guy who seems to cry a lot.
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  27. Thirdeye says:
    @eah
    https://twitter.com/ramzpaul/status/995587014258036736

    The Broken Clock Effect comes into play!

    What’s missing from the Free Speech discussion is denunciation of the heinous measures taken at the governmental level against the BDS movement.

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  28. Dave Pinsen says: • Website
    @Old Palo Altan
    If, Steve, you are going to champion the old elites (which of course I applaud) then at least learn how they refer to themselves. There never was a "Lord Kenneth Clark", who, had he existed, would have been the younger son of either a duke or a marquess. An example of this set, one you have more than once referred to here, was Lord Randolph Churchill, younger son of the Duke of Marlborough and father of that old fraud Winston.

    Kenneth Clark was awarded a life peerage in 1969 as "Baron Clark of Saltwood in the County of Kent".
    "Baron" is never used in pubic discourse or in a social setting, but only in legal documents of a kind increasingly rare; thus he, and any other baron, is always referred to as "Lord X", in has case, of course, simply as "Lord Clark".

    There is, I promise you, a distinct satisfaction in getting these things right.

    Why does “Lord” attach to the last name, but “Sir” attach to the first?

    Read More
    • Replies: @J.Ross
    Lord is tied to land and originally but not recently family. So you can be born Mr Y, and later, created the Lord of X.
    , @anonymous
    Enough of the Emily Posts!
    , @Chrisnonymous
    "Sir" reflects the status of an individual, whereas "Lord" is appended to hereditary titles. When "Baron Clark" was created, a new baronetcy "Clark of Saltwood" was created--something qualitatively different from being knighted. I guess...
    , @Holden McGroin III
    All questions beginning “Why” and relating to English grammar, have the same answer: “Because F*ck You, That’s Why.” Except the ones where the answer is “The Normans”.
    , @Old Palo Altan
    Briefly: to be a baron was to be a territorial magnate. A baron was a lord of a place. In time these place names often became surnames, and it became customary to create new peerages attached not only to the name of an estate or place, but also, if uncommonly, to a surname, emphasising that the title was hereditary - for a family, not an individual.
    A knighthood was always a personal and non-hereditary title and thus it was natural that the honorific "Sir" come before the Christian name, the sign of one's individuality.
    Much more could be said: read Sir Anthony Wagner's English Genealogy for more on this, and pointers to further reading.
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  29. Whiskey says: • Website
    @eah
    https://twitter.com/ramzpaul/status/995587014258036736

    I love Zionism and think it should be a shining example like Irish Independence to other Whites.

    America should copy Israel especially its border walls pronto. And treat Mexico like Lebanon.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Svigor

    I am still curious as to how you square your support of Zionism with your opposition to identity politics.

    You won't answer, of course. And we both know why.
     


    I love Zionism and think it should be a shining example like Irish Independence to other Whites.

    America should copy Israel especially its border walls pronto. And treat Mexico like Lebanon.
     

    All we have to do is remove the Zionists from power in the West, and that would become possible. But not until then, because Diaspora Zionists are the single biggest obstacle to White ethnonationalism, White Zionism, American Nationalism, etc.

    Your reply is a dodge; Ramz was criticizing Peterson for hypocrisy - for supporting Zionism but opposing identity politics. Supporting Zionism but opposing identity politics is impossible, for starters, because Zionism IS identity politics. Then there's the fact that all the leading "anti-racists" are Zionists. All the oligarchs who pour money into leftism are opposed to borders for America, in favor of mass immigration, and opposed to anything like Zionism for Americans or White people, meanwhile they're in favor of borders for Israel, against mass immigration to Israel, and in favor of Zionism for Jews.

    So simply stating your love for Zionism, without qualification, is straight-up cuckery (for Whites; it's malignant hypocrisy for Jews).

    , @Pat Hannagan
    Comparing the two as equals makes no sense.

    In the "shining example" of "Irish Independence" the Irish were the Palestinians, the planted English and Protestant Scots the Zionist Jews.

    You're an absolute idiot, Whiskey. You can't even form an historically coherent cover identity.

    Anyway, let's enjoy World Whisky Day this Saturday before your co-ethnics start the next world war.

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  30. J.Ross says: • Website

    OT apologies if this has already gone around
    A weak argument from a solidly neocon mainstream rag about who will replace who

    Yes, the U.S. is on track to become at some point around 2045 a “minority white” nation — in the sense that if we lump every person who isn’t white into a single demographic category of “non-white,” whites will be outnumbered. The problem is that no such politically homogeneous category of citizen exists in the real world. It’s the creation of demographers and liberal data journalists eager to mollify their anxieties.

    http://theweek.com/articles/772590/white-minority-illusion

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Lots of white women in the prog coalition. Even the Dems aren't dumb enough to go full anti-white.
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  31. J.Ross says: • Website
    @Dave Pinsen
    Why does "Lord" attach to the last name, but "Sir" attach to the first?

    Lord is tied to land and originally but not recently family. So you can be born Mr Y, and later, created the Lord of X.

    Read More
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  32. Bill P says:

    I first heard about Peterson relatively recently. I really haven’t been following the trends lately. Turns out my wife’s senior citizen mother (she’s hardcore anti-communist) has been a fan for longer than I even knew who he was.

    When I checked him out I liked his videos, but it was a bit frustrating for me because I prefer to read (much more efficient use of my time). Although this is probably why I overlooked Peterson, his YouTube presentations are engaging, and probably do more to help the average student understand psychology than any dense book could. He’s very quick on his feet, so it’s hard to catch the few errors and omissions he makes when responding to wide-ranging questions. The fact that he makes so few is actually pretty impressive for a guy who is speaking extemporaneously so much of the time.

    My takeaway from Peterson is that he actually cares about his students and people in general. He went into clinical psychology, after all. Generally, I’d assume that most people who do that genuinely want to help people. Although a minority may be attracted to the field for the power it gives them over others, Peterson strikes me as an avowed enemy of that type, and I will practice a little amateur psychology here and suggest that this is why he went public with his YouTube videos.

    I support Peterson’s approach without any reservations, and those who demand ideological purity from him understand neither the man nor his mission, and should really stop looking a gift horse in the mouth. As a student, I would have loved his classes, and as a father I can only hope that there are some mentors like him for my sons when they come of age.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AndrewR
    Videos and podcasts are great for when you can't read: when you're cleaning the house, working out, driving, or doing some other monotonous activity that prevents you from reading but doesn't require much of your attention.
    , @The preferred nomenclature is...
    Agree.
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  33. @Warner
    Steve, you are correct in everything you analyze regarding Jordan Peterson. But I would also recommend biting the bullet and setting aside 3 or 4 hours, maybe over a couple days to watch some videos. If you want recommendations, let me know. I'm leading a JP discussion group in NYC. We watch 5-20 minute clips and discuss. The group has grown 5x since we added his videos.

    But I would also recommend biting the bullet and setting aside 3 or 4 hours, maybe over a couple days to watch some videos. If you want recommendations, let me know.

    Just give them to us.

    I’m with Steve, i find the video thing a low flow information spigot. I do watch a few videos in order to fix stuff where the visual information matters–ex. here’s how to reattach my sink to a granite countertop; ok great, now i can do it. But where it doesn’t matter i can read much, much faster.

    You’re a Jordan Peterson guy–great. Give us the top 3-5 you’d recommend. I’m an old dude a bit north of Steve’s age, like several regulars here. I probably won’t become a Peterson regular regardless. But my son’s a young guy … but i’d want to see value before telling him to go watch Peterson.

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    • Replies: @Clyde

    I’m with Steve, i find the video thing a low flow information spigot. I do watch a few videos in order to fix stuff where the visual information matters–ex. here’s how to reattach my sink to a granite countertop; ok great, now i can do it. But where it doesn’t matter i can read much, much faster.
     
    Extract the MP3 from Jordan Peterson's youtube video and listen at your convenience w MP3 player or a flash drive plugged into new automobiles. During exercise or while driving https://www.freegrabapp.com/free-youtube-to-mp3-converter I like agptek MP3 players that are found at ebay and Amazon for about $23
    , @SimplePseudonymicHandle
    This one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYJp813tGH4

    Think of it as summarizing 60 hours of more than 500. A good start.

    You'll be missing the Pinochio lectures, the Bible series, his lengthier treatments of Solzhenityn and Nietzche, the lecture he gave to some women's group long before anyone knew who he was (which you can easily find it's just one), his lectures on the origins of fascism, his conversations with Sam Harris, Joe Rogan, Ben Shapiro, etc., plus all the stupid ones of him confronting protesters over the Trans thing at the UofT plus the variety of television spots he did on that and his testimony before the Canadian Senate.

    But you will have a good sense of him and what he's about. Watch that one - oh and watch last month's (April 2018) recording of his Patreon livestream which you can find on YouTube now too. Those two.

    , @Sylvie Vartan
    I have the same opinion as you about YouTube videos having a lower bandwidth than text - I usually speed up talking head videos to 150-200%, and I'm still not satisfied that it's an effective way of taking in information. Also, somebody putting up an hour-long video is effectively saying that he's worth an hour of your time, an immodest presumption for an amateur self-publisher.

    Nevertheless, the video that got me started on Jordan Peterson was this feature-film length conversation he had with Camille Paglia. I found myself pausing the video to stop and think, so for me at least it had a high informational bandwidth. Then again, one of the slogans people are trying to get to stick to Peterson is that he's a stupid person's idea of a smart person, and I might be one of those stupid people.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-hIVnmUdXM

    , @Warner
    My syllabus:

    Overview, familiarize with his way of thinking:

    Until 19m17
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2c3m0tt5KcE

    Cain and Abel:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMJnpwwpytg

    Masculinity-Femininity:

    33m00 to 49m00
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-hIVnmUdXM

    Responsibility:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhgp1nQM9Y0


    Purpose:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AALh8juWJY

    Practical steps:

    Until 9m00
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnaASd6Vm58

    (References to: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47LCLoidJh4 )

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  34. Anonymous[196] • Disclaimer says:

    59-year-old Grant Cardone’s secret to crushing it in life. No drugs, no Rx drugs, no alcohol, eat light, get up at 4 a.m., exercise, hustle, hustle, hustle for 16 hours straight per day, and sell to survive. Cardone, who barely graduated with a degree from McNeese State and started out as a car salesman after college, is now worth $300 million from sales and real estate. Gotta love the message.

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    • Replies: @MBlanc46
    Spam, Spam, Spam.
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  35. J.Ross says: • Website
    @joeyjoejoe
    Peterson Schmeterson. I'm more interested in this statement.

    "Yang is a fairly sizable journalistic talent..."

    Is this even a viable thing to be anymore? I don't simply mean a 'journalistic' talent. I mean a MainStreamMedia talent, or publically popular talent, or the whole idea of a 'spokesman'-for the age, for the status quo, for the standard view, for whatever. The very idea could apply to any personality who is being touted as the 'next thing' in written or observational insight (one example of many: Ronin Farrow).

    Because while I used to consume information based on those motivations (again, an example of many: I used to like to read George Will-30ish years ago. I'd follow certain writers because they generally had something useful to say)-I don't consume anything with the view that 'this guy, employed by X (Washington Post, Slate, National Review, whatever) is saying something IMPORTANT.

    Rather, I surf the internet, and feel I get more information from blog posts like this one (and, just as importantly, from the comment section that follows) than from any employed, mainstream voice. If I were to see an interesting article in an MSM venue (say, interesting human interest story in Sports Illustrated), I'd not presume the rest are good and start reading Sports Illustrated-rather, I"d continue to surf and find the next interesting thing-I'd revisit Sports Illustrated based on new buzz about a new article rather than out of loyalty, or memories of that first article.

    I'd rather read four of your posts (and many others) than put in the effort to read a weekly column by Joe X, of the Washington Post. And if you (or anyone else) decided to stop blogging, well, there are dozens of others to replace you.

    I think its a very good thing-its a slow return to the natural order of many different voices that existed before the great consolidation of the late 20th century. But it is very clearly a different way to consume information, and learn, and the idea of a 'sizeable journalistic talent' seems very archaic in this environment. If he was any good, he'd have a blog!

    joe

    Was Will ever a journalist? Yes, there is such a thing as “journalism” in a serious sense — there are even responsible university area studies and objective humanities — no matter how rare and abused these fields have become or how simple they look from outside. Ronan Farrow is a big deal because he lines up checkable statements that derail careers, not because he’s the guy of the moment.
    Back when universal IT departments were relatively new, a guy was caught literally googling the answer; people with real certs picked up on him right away, end users saw nothing wrong. Some things are easy to fake (Zakaria, in fact every single person at CNN) but the real thing still exists.

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  36. I would love to check this out in NYC. Can you post details?

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  37. J.Ross says: • Website

    OT WE MUST NEVER FORGET
    TO WRITE OUT THE CHECK
    AND NEVER MEANS NEVER

    https://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/aug/21/study-of-holocaust-survivors-finds-trauma-passed-on-to-childrens-genes

    Genetic changes stemming from the trauma suffered by Holocaust survivors are capable of being passed on to their children, the clearest sign yet that one person’s life experience can affect subsequent generations.

    So one decade can rewrite genes but thousands of years of ancestry cannot. Okay. Does this mean that the Nakba or the Sassoon experience in India or the Council of Four Lands in old Poland or American Slavery (all of which massively exceeded the term of the Nazi regime by any measure) might also have affected genes?

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  38. Anonymous[400] • Disclaimer says:
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  39. In his book “Maps of Meaning,” which Jordan Peterson’s fans never seem to want to talk about for some reason, Peterson describes having apocalyptic visions for several weeks in which he ascends to the top of a pyramid, cannibalizes his younger cousin, then carves her up into steaks and offers her as a sacrifice to a bunch of dogs walking around on their hind legs.

    Not sure if that is in line with ‘old school Canadian liberalism’ as one commenter put it? Sounds more like old school messianic cult leader. Not impressed with his shallow philosophy and people should read his first book, Maps of Meaning, before they jump on board professing their love for the guy due to his 12 Rules for Life book, which boils down to ‘clean your room,’ ‘stand up straight’ and ‘take your pills so the voice coming from the jar of peanut butter will stop telling you to murder everyone’.

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    • LOL: Luke Lea
    • Replies: @Charles Erwin Wilson II

    Peterson describes having apocalyptic visions for several weeks in which he ascends to the top of a pyramid, cannibalizes his younger cousin, then carves her up into steaks and offers her as a sacrifice to a bunch of dogs walking around on their hind legs.
     
    The same happened to me, except I carved up someone named DangerousBob and ate him. The dangerous part of Bob, it turns out, was indigestion.
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  40. Anonymous[196] • Disclaimer says:

    Work & action, and lots of it, is the only way to stop insecurity, uncertainty, unhappiness. If you want to be happy you’ve got to put in sick levels of work.

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    • Replies: @bartok

    Work & action, and lots of it, is the only way to stop insecurity, uncertainty, unhappiness. If you want to be happy you’ve got to put in sick levels of work.
     
    An utterly ridiculous statement. The majority of boys and men are content - indeed their contentment is so obvious that the women in their lives often get annoyed about it, seeing it as passivity (which it can amount to, true).

    Something as simple as televised sports reliably produces contentment in men. Women have a tougher time in this area - their natural or habitual state is something other than contentment.

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  41. JoelsBlog says: • Website
    @JohnnyD
    In my opinion, Peterson isn't all that reactionary. He's basically a liberal stuck in the early 1990's, when Canada was still a somewhat serious country.

    Seriously??? Is that what you think? Are you trying to say Canada is no longer serious?

    Visit JoelsBlog for the Latest News in Nigeria

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  42. PSR says:

    I’ve read his book 12 Rules but haven’t seen any of his videos. For anyone not familiar with him I would suggest the chapter from that book titled Always Tell the Truth (or at least Don’t Lie). If you don’t care for that, you’re probably not going to like him.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Everyone has their lists of rules and regulations.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPFfZoy9-GI


    Some, however, are skeptical:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JMSkcCV790
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  43. Steve,
    For someone who is trying to:

    cover the Jordan Peterson Phenomenon without sitting through dozens of hours of videos

    …you do better that an reasonably good job right up to this point:

    Thus, Peterson’s endorsement of old individualistic standards of behavior and excellence is widely seen by The Establishment as racist and fascist because, they fear, that white males are likely to accomplish disproportionately more under objective standards.

    I don’t think that’s what “The Establishment”‘s problem is with him.

    The problems are all and any of:

    1) Journalists who are unaware of what made Peterson such a figure in the first place, and who, for example, not knowing anything about this:

    (and the 60 some hours of lectures and talks that are summarized succinctly in that 35 minutes) …

    these journalists go straight to the short videos that show him speaking out against bill C-16 – they also do the lazy work of presuming that “against C-16″ = “against trans” when Peterson is clear over and over again he is not against Trans, he is against compelled speech – but for all reasons of “lazy” and “clickbait” and “etc” journalists ignore all of that

    [MORE]

    2) Journalists have a new trick: anything that is mainstream by definition appeals primarily to “white” people, all the more so when Latino and Jewish and often enough Asian people are considered “white” … so they have this trick where if your audience is primarily “white” then they frame that as evidence that you are beloved of the “alt right” … recall that in 1998 if you became a public figure and your audience was primarily white(gentile and Jewish), Latino, Asian … that would be pretty mainstream

    3) both one and two are tied together as a sort of further evidence in the journalistic construction … “he’s against Trans rights!” (he’s not) , “his audience is all white men” (it’s not) … “he must be beloved of the alt right”

    All of this is as much a product of laziness, incompetence, and the simple bare utter minimum of what it takes to be clickbait in journalism for a lowest-common-denominator capitalist market because everything is always about identity and haters all the time don’t you know, that that’s all it needs to be.

    To say that The Establishment cares about “Peterson’s endorsement of old individualistic standards of behavior and excellence”, is giving them way, way too much credit.

    Oh, and we haven’t even gotten to the fact that they can’t be troubled to understand that the real alt-right sees Peterson, correctly, as an existential threat.

    This is a correct understanding on the part of the alt-right – that he existentially threatens their movement – because you can view the last 40 years of failed libertarianism as center-left/center-right and many on the righter-of-center right saying to the world “please don’t make me white nationalist, please, please, anything but that, please”.

    And here comes along Peterson’s formulation … and thanks to that, and to him, maybe they don’t have to.

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  44. It is amazing how popular Peterson is. Speaking a member of Generation Z, I would never expect any of my fellow students or co-workers to have ever heard of someone like Steve Sailer, Scott Alexander, Spotted Toad, Ron Unz, Richard Spencer, Nick Fuentes, Heartiste, et cetera. Even more mainstream public intellectuals and journalists like Steven Pinker, Charles Murray, Glenn Greenwald, Matt Yglesias or Nassim Taleb would be a bit of stretch.

    But a huge fraction of the white and Asian males in my age range that I know are not only aware of Peterson’s existence, but enthusiastic fans who bought his book and listen to his lectures. I guess a lot of young men were looking both for life guidance and for a socially acceptable way to oppose social justice, and Peterson came out of nowhere by delivering both at once.

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    • LOL: Luke Lea
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  45. Anon[318] • Disclaimer says:

    I think Peterson has just found an underserved market, namely college professor pontificating on public issues on YouTube. A lot of people currently hogging YouTube opinion slots are disreputable or conspiracy theorists.

    Peterson’s success in this arena may lead to a flood of professors on YouTube.

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  46. Clyde says:
    @AnotherDad

    But I would also recommend biting the bullet and setting aside 3 or 4 hours, maybe over a couple days to watch some videos. If you want recommendations, let me know.
     
    Just give them to us.

    I'm with Steve, i find the video thing a low flow information spigot. I do watch a few videos in order to fix stuff where the visual information matters--ex. here's how to reattach my sink to a granite countertop; ok great, now i can do it. But where it doesn't matter i can read much, much faster.

    You're a Jordan Peterson guy--great. Give us the top 3-5 you'd recommend. I'm an old dude a bit north of Steve's age, like several regulars here. I probably won't become a Peterson regular regardless. But my son's a young guy ... but i'd want to see value before telling him to go watch Peterson.

    I’m with Steve, i find the video thing a low flow information spigot. I do watch a few videos in order to fix stuff where the visual information matters–ex. here’s how to reattach my sink to a granite countertop; ok great, now i can do it. But where it doesn’t matter i can read much, much faster.

    Extract the MP3 from Jordan Peterson’s youtube video and listen at your convenience w MP3 player or a flash drive plugged into new automobiles. During exercise or while driving https://www.freegrabapp.com/free-youtube-to-mp3-converter I like agptek MP3 players that are found at ebay and Amazon for about $23

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous

    Extract the MP3 from Jordan Peterson’s youtube video and listen at your convenience w MP3 player or a flash drive plugged into new automobiles. During exercise or while driving https://www.freegrabapp.com/free-youtube-to-mp3-converter I like agptek MP3 players that are found at ebay and Amazon for about $23

     

    YouTube to MP3 program is free (from CNET). You just drag and drop the page address and it converts to MP3. Then you can use the $3 MP3 Books app to play them like.
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  47. @joeyjoejoe
    Peterson Schmeterson. I'm more interested in this statement.

    "Yang is a fairly sizable journalistic talent..."

    Is this even a viable thing to be anymore? I don't simply mean a 'journalistic' talent. I mean a MainStreamMedia talent, or publically popular talent, or the whole idea of a 'spokesman'-for the age, for the status quo, for the standard view, for whatever. The very idea could apply to any personality who is being touted as the 'next thing' in written or observational insight (one example of many: Ronin Farrow).

    Because while I used to consume information based on those motivations (again, an example of many: I used to like to read George Will-30ish years ago. I'd follow certain writers because they generally had something useful to say)-I don't consume anything with the view that 'this guy, employed by X (Washington Post, Slate, National Review, whatever) is saying something IMPORTANT.

    Rather, I surf the internet, and feel I get more information from blog posts like this one (and, just as importantly, from the comment section that follows) than from any employed, mainstream voice. If I were to see an interesting article in an MSM venue (say, interesting human interest story in Sports Illustrated), I'd not presume the rest are good and start reading Sports Illustrated-rather, I"d continue to surf and find the next interesting thing-I'd revisit Sports Illustrated based on new buzz about a new article rather than out of loyalty, or memories of that first article.

    I'd rather read four of your posts (and many others) than put in the effort to read a weekly column by Joe X, of the Washington Post. And if you (or anyone else) decided to stop blogging, well, there are dozens of others to replace you.

    I think its a very good thing-its a slow return to the natural order of many different voices that existed before the great consolidation of the late 20th century. But it is very clearly a different way to consume information, and learn, and the idea of a 'sizeable journalistic talent' seems very archaic in this environment. If he was any good, he'd have a blog!

    joe

    I agree with your take on this. I occasionally hear about a worthwhile article in National Review that I might take the time to look up, but I dropped my subscription to the magazine 15 years ago and wouldn’t bother to visit NRO.

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  48. Davosbane says:
    @Luke Lea
    I am going to see Peterson in Nashville on June 10. Actually I am going to see who the audience is. I certainly don't agree with everything Peterson says. He's big on Nietzsche for instance, whom I frankly despise, and he can be sloppy with his historical dates, etc.. His Biblical interpretations are psychological whereas mine are economic/historical (see below) but none of that matters. I see him as a breath of fresh air in the shifting cultural winds.

    On the Adam and Eve myth: https://goo.gl/uikvFb

    On the Hebraic conception of God: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ie7d7efepZqFvwcCG-WNGlxyXKIpssU0ge3KM9o50K0/edit?usp=sharing

    On the teachings of Jesus: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ie7d7efepZqFvwcCG-WNGlxyXKIpssU0ge3KM9o50K0/edit?usp=sharing

    Interesting take on Adam and Eve.
    Did the professor respond to your letter? Did he share anything insightful?

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    • Replies: @Luke Lea
    "Interesting take on Adam and Eve.
    Did the professor respond to your letter? Did he share anything insightful?"

    No. But Goody was already in his eighties. Another professor, this one at Yale, recently contacted me about it though. Said he was going to bring it up at a conference of Mesopotamian archeologists but I never heard back. I should probably re-write it, try to do a better job.
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  49. @AnotherDad

    But I would also recommend biting the bullet and setting aside 3 or 4 hours, maybe over a couple days to watch some videos. If you want recommendations, let me know.
     
    Just give them to us.

    I'm with Steve, i find the video thing a low flow information spigot. I do watch a few videos in order to fix stuff where the visual information matters--ex. here's how to reattach my sink to a granite countertop; ok great, now i can do it. But where it doesn't matter i can read much, much faster.

    You're a Jordan Peterson guy--great. Give us the top 3-5 you'd recommend. I'm an old dude a bit north of Steve's age, like several regulars here. I probably won't become a Peterson regular regardless. But my son's a young guy ... but i'd want to see value before telling him to go watch Peterson.

    This one:

    Think of it as summarizing 60 hours of more than 500. A good start.

    You’ll be missing the Pinochio lectures, the Bible series, his lengthier treatments of Solzhenityn and Nietzche, the lecture he gave to some women’s group long before anyone knew who he was (which you can easily find it’s just one), his lectures on the origins of fascism, his conversations with Sam Harris, Joe Rogan, Ben Shapiro, etc., plus all the stupid ones of him confronting protesters over the Trans thing at the UofT plus the variety of television spots he did on that and his testimony before the Canadian Senate.

    But you will have a good sense of him and what he’s about. Watch that one – oh and watch last month’s (April 2018) recording of his Patreon livestream which you can find on YouTube now too. Those two.

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  50. J.Ross says: • Website

    OT Is this the season of East Asian girls losing their minds? First Latitia “Jade” Chai headlines at Cornell, now: “I’m not tiny because I’m Asian, I’m tiny because you’re white.” I think that couplet just made me experience Zen. Zen is like a headache, right?
    (My understanding is that East Asians had a hard time nutritionally for a while due to historical societal dysfunction, and when they get better food, they grow to “American” sizes.)

    http://reductress.com/post/im-not-tiny-because-im-asian-im-tiny-because-youre-white/

    One of the most confusing comments I receive from white women is, “Ugh, I’m jealous of Asian women because they’re all so tiny!”

    Y’know, in terms of height. Women agonize over their height and not any other measures of size that would favor a diet of vegetables and lean meats or a culture of discipline.

    You see, with 4.3 billion Asians accounting for 60% of the world’s population, our median size is the norm and you’re all deviating from it.

    Dear Yan Shen, I know it was you. Love the nekama act. However, math is a way of modelling reality and not the other way around. Also, obviously our Yan would have done a much more responsible job of establishing a median, starting with not averaging everybody from the Bosphorus to the Gvozdev Islands together in one size.

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    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Is "Reductress" a parody site?
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  51. M_Young says:

    “The complication is that his three roles interact.”

    It’s almost like they intersect.

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  52. I’m fascinated by the fact that Jordan Peterson has caused Vox Day to to go completely off the rails. I don’t get it, honestly. Can’t a man have many things to say that you find interesting and worthwhile, and others you disagree with without it causing you to condemn him unreservedly?

    This used to bother me about the late Lawrence Auster, whom I considered brilliant. He would condemn someone like Matk Steyn as completely useless because while he opened many people’s eyes to the dangers of Muslim immigration, he didn’t come out and demand that it be ended. (Subsequently, Steyn more or less has done so.) But if Mark Steyn is performing an enormous service in an important area, why is it necessary to condemn him because he doesn’t go quite as far rhetorically as you would? It’s not as if Steyn is setting policy, after all. He’s expressing opinions that may influence people to question the reigning narrative, and the result of that may change policy.

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    • Replies: @the Supreme Gentleman
    Vox Day is sort of a professional egotist. I suspect that Vox really hates Peterson because he thinks that he deserves Peterson's large fanbase, salary and media attention.
    , @SimplePseudonymicHandle
    It doesn't surprise me in the least that Vox Day is loosing his cheese-wizz over this.

    As I said in other words in another post still awaiting moderation: Peterson may be the single greatest existential threat to the alt-right - and the Alt-right understands that.

    I think the Maoist left understands him as a enemy they are programmed to try to destroy at all costs, but they probably don't understand that if he succeeds, he's their death too, as much so as that of the Alt-right.
    , @Spud Boy
    Vox Day is an amateur troll who's obviously chaffing at the reality of Jordan Peterson's popularity and impact, while he toils away in obscurity, egged on only by his amen chorus of commenters who can't tolerate even the mildest criticism.

    His latest Dorkstream is a rambling, incoherent assemblage of ad-homenims, such as saying Peterson is an "intellectual fraud", whatever that means. Peterson is also claimed to have some five-degrees-of-separation link to John Podesta and George Soros. Yeah, whatever.
    , @VD
    Off the rails? Hardly.

    Unlike practically all of Peterson's fans, I have actually read what he has written, including The 12 Rules, Maps of Meaning, and A New Global Partnership. Unlike most of his fans who have read his work, I am sufficiently well-read to penetrate the incoherent stream of references that he uses to impress his naive and unsophisticated readers.

    This is a man who didn't know Dante was the protagonist of The Divine Comedy. He claims all humans thought in terms of narrative until 500 years ago. He has apparently never read Aristotle, Aquinas, or Augustine, and does not refer to any of them even once in his 700-page book on the architecture of belief. (The two references to Aristotle in the index are contained in his quote of someone else.) His ability to construct an argument doesn't even rise to the level of Sam Harris or Richard Dawkins. He even admits to habitually being dishonest with himself and others.

    The man is an utter intellectual charlatan, and if you are sufficiently familiar with his references or his historical references, you simply cannot escape that conclusion.
    , @Avalanche
    Off the rails? Not really -- and Peterson deserves the scorn and coals being heaped on his head. Sure, Peterson SEEMS as if he's helping young men, but ... helping them to what? Nihilism and inaction? Leftism and the end of the West? The loss of connection to their family and nation?
    IF, as Peterson insists, "group identity" is horrible, evil, and destructive and should be avoided like burning napalm - why does Peterson ALSO unequivocally support "group identity" for Israel/Jews and his Kwaquituatl (sp?) First Nations tribe?


    (From the partial transcript Vox Day posted on his blog): Vox Day, in his Dark Stream (on Periscope) said this -- which makes perfect sense to anyone who has parents and has or wishes to have children!
    ===================
    "You know, I felt pity for him because he's somebody who has clearly known a lot of suffering and tragedy in his life, but you know what, after I read those tweets where he was saying that you have no right to be proud of your culture, you have no right to be proud of your race, you have no right to be proud of your nation, you have no right to be proud of your tribe, you have no right to be proud of your people... you know what? F__k him!

    Anyone who is going tell me that I should not take pride in the tradition that my grandfather established for me, for my brothers, and for my children, can go to Hell. I have nothing but utter contempt for that attitude. You know, Petersen goes around saying "oh you should you should create your own standards and define your own truth and do your own thing" and all this kind of crap, that is not something that is going to preserve Western civilization, that is not something that is going to preserve the West's traditions, and I'll tell you something else. Jordan Peterson absolutely lies, because he says the goal of the far right is "to unjustly bathe in the glories of the past."

    That is totally false. What we on the right want to do is we want to be worthy of the glories of the past. When we look at the story of Leonidas and the 300 Spartans we want to be inspired by that, we want to be worthy of that. You do not develop courage on your own, you develop courage by seeing the example in others, and especially in others like you, especially in your family members. ..."
    ===================
    Go watch Vox Day's 22-min DarkStream this transcript came from; see if it brings you some understanding of WHY Vox Day, and many of his blog readers, castigate Peterson.

    , @Dave
    Vox has developed a strange obsession with Peterson, and at this point it's rather pathetic.
    Vox is obviously a bright guy, but he has torn into Peterson with the fury of a scorned lover. He has convinced himself that Peterson is a minion of the Anti Christ, and Vox's fanboys have gone all in with this supposed takedown.
    Not that Peterson cares, or even knows, who Vox is.
    Vox has some daddy issues, and anyone who cares to read about it can look up Theodore Beale, Vox's true name, on wiki or Infogalactic.
    His father did time in Federal for threatening to assassinate some judges, as well as developing some sort of Fundie cult that ended up in arrests.
    Vox is sperging on Peterson and I think there is some serious projection going on.
    , @Paul Yarbles
    Too many people here are letting the perfect be the enemy of the good. Be practical! Let the left consume themselves in a purity arms race!

    If Peterson stops young men from being SJW fags, then he’s doing the Lord’s work.

    , @Roderick Spode
    Vox Day was never on the rails. Regardless of his ideology it's pretty clear from his writing style that he's a psycho.
    , @BEER/ we're all going to die
    If Peterson is behind efforts to flood Western nations with migrants -including that work with the UN, etc., (who knows what else) - this in addition to his anti-nationalist propaganda, his outspoken denunciations of identifying with your heritage, his mocking of people taking pride in their identity and caring and defending their roots and ancestry, calling them losers, and so on, except of course for a certain special group he loves deeply and weeps for, well I do not blame Vox Day one bit for going on the attack. It's abooot bloody time buckos.
    , @Northeast
    I agree with your take on Auster and Vox Day, but Vox is in no way as intelligent as Auster was. Not even in the same league. Vox Day is an angry crank who babbles on and on about his 150+ IQ. If his IQ was above 110 I would be shocked.
    , @Uilleam Yr Alban
    Auster’s irascible excommunication of anyone who disagreed with him was delightful. (Though I surely remember it as more enjoyable since his passing. At the time it irked me. He considered Steve a Jew hater beyond the pale.) He was my first encounter with a Christian Jew whose conversion had seemed to increase his tribal bloodthirst.
    , @yaxhy
    leapfrogging loyalty?
    , @Anon
    I think the problem is that Peterson isn't just trying to be a public figure; he's trying to create a cult. Vox has looked him over and thinks Peterson is intellectually dishonest and shady, and though haven't done the research--I have zero patience for lecturing videos--I suspect Vox is correct.
    , @map
    Vox Day has done a very good job deconstructing Jordan Peterson and concluding that ultimately what Jordanetics advocates is evil.
    , @Lucius Somesuch

    I had been wondering how Peterson could produce some of the stupid and obviously false statements he had made about history, such as medieval people not being familiar with rhetoric, or the ancients not knowing how to think empirically. But apparently he really is that ignorant, because he's never actually read most of the classics, he has only read about them, third- or even fourth-hand.
     
    Vox Day, "An Eminent Person" 5/13/2018

    The Aeneid: Pros - new translation is pretty good. Cons - I've never actually been able to finish it.
     
    "Voxiversity III Possibilities" 1/28/2009

    --Now, maybe I'm taking the latter out of context; but for someone who boasts of his classical learning and claims Aristotelianism as his philosophical foundation, Vox really seems to suffer a paucity of first-hand contact with the classics himself. Based upon various comments about reading at the gym, it would appear he gets most of his "Aristotle" through Umberto Eco, since the only Aristotelian texts he ever talks of reading are the Rhetoric (which he uses to justify suckerpunches like "call 'em a p*d*") or the Sophistical Refutations, a minor appendix to the Organon.

    The sole mention of the Organon at Vox Popoli indeed is merely used pretentiously to introduce the fact he is reading the informal Sophistical Refutations; the word "Nicomachean" returns nothing at all. Nor for that matter do Neo-Thomists Gilson or Maritain.

    Peterson clearly is better read in Late Romantic novels and Existentialism. That might be regrettable from a classical perspective but it hasn't kept him from deeply engaging with the Bible. Vox meanwhile dismisses Plato as a fraud and commits other sub-Ayn Randian atrocities against philosophy which make him risible as an intellectual champion of tradition outside Tolkien.
    , @Roger
    Steve and others say that Peterson is "a high-brow traditionalist pro-Western civilization intellectual."

    Vox Day says the opposite, more or less.
    http://voxday.blogspot.com/2018/05/darkstream-jordan-peterson-is-globalist.html
    http://voxday.blogspot.com/2018/05/the-dog-whistler.html

    I am still trying to figure it out. I want to give Peterson credit for refusing to use weird pronouns, but that was the position of 99% of the population until a couple of years ago. That could either show that he is principled, or that he is just slow to adapt.
    , @Chet
    A better characterization is that Vox Day smelled a fraud and publicly analyzed his subject until he discovered the nature and basis of the fraud.

    I watched JP lectures on youtube and listened so some of his latest book. Then I read or watched VD's analysis. I conclude that JP is a fraud and his advice and opinions range from useless to poisonous. As far as his scholarship, he does a fair amount of name-dropping in his work, but I don't trust his interpretations and conclusions.

    Keep in mind that JP wants to be a guru. If you find out that a guru is a fraud, doesn't that taint and undermine everything he has done and continues to do as a guru?

    I think Steve's summary of JP is pretty far from the mark, but then JP is a pretty clever fellow who has stimulated an astonishing diversity of opinions about what JP actually means and what JP is actually about.
    , @Cloud of Probable Matricide
    You are right that Poz Day has lost his mind about this. Jealousy? Did JP bag Space Cunny?
    , @roo_ster
    Vox day bas correctly analyzed peterson. It was simply a mater of reading what peterson wrote and not some big mystery. But too many folks are too lazy to rtfm.
    , @vinteuil
    The Vox Day vs. Jordan Peterson/Lawrence Auster vs. Mark Steyn thing is a sufficiently common phenomenon that it's got a name: "the narcissism of small differences."

    Back in the day, I was thoroughly dismayed by Auster's constant attacks on Steyn, which seemed to surpass in vitriol anything he ever said about genuinely bad actors like, say, David Frum. And Beale's scorched earth tactics against Peterson are, if anything, still more "off the rails" - as you aptly put it.

    The word "narcissism" is particularly apropos in Beale's case - is there anybody on the internet so quick to toot his own horn - and to toot is so loudly?

    , @Kevin in Ohio
    I like Vox, but his reaction to Peterson is a bit cringey, he seems to be disagreeing with him on a different plane than Peterson intends to operate. He’s a shrink, not an Aristotelian philosopher - and he never claims to be. Vox’s reaction to Peterson’s sympathizers is also striking in that it feels unhinged.

    I’m not a Peterson fanboy by any stretch, but he does have something to say. The mainstream’s reaction to him is also telling, I think largely for the reason Steve mentions: he gives whitey hope.

    I also find the videos tedious, so I’m hoping to glean something from writings.
    , @Melendwyr

    Can’t a man have many things to say that you find interesting and worthwhile, and others you disagree with without it causing you to condemn him unreservedly?
     
    Psychologically, no. That's just not how humans work. The more intensely we define ourselves in terms of our positions on things, the less we can tolerate deviation from those positions. And the more similar the positions are, the more slight deviations become significant.

    It is not logical, but it is often true.
    , @Mick Jagger gathers no Mosque
    Vox has been specific and rational in his many criticisms of Mr. Peterson and the fact you have not be able to grasp that reveals your reading comprehension is way below average.

    Vox has unmasked Mr. Peterson as a dangerous lunatic and that prolly wounds your ego because you think Mr. Peterson is a man of quality.
    , @The preferred nomenclature is...
    That's weird I thought this exact same thing 5 minutes before I read your comment. I was a huge fan of LA (corresponded with and donated to him) except for the part you just listed.

    I was re-reading Burke this morning getting ready for a lunch discussion on Friday and ran across a section of Burke I had copied in a hand written letter to LA with a check I sent him.
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  53. anon[358] • Disclaimer says:

    The Esquire article is worthwhile. So read it.

    Read More
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  54. RH says:

    Steve,

    Referring to Sir Kenneth Clark as Lord Kenneth Clark is not strictly correct. He was a baron, so the correct style would be Baron Clark or Lord Clark. Cheers.

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  55. @Harry Baldwin
    I'm fascinated by the fact that Jordan Peterson has caused Vox Day to to go completely off the rails. I don't get it, honestly. Can't a man have many things to say that you find interesting and worthwhile, and others you disagree with without it causing you to condemn him unreservedly?

    This used to bother me about the late Lawrence Auster, whom I considered brilliant. He would condemn someone like Matk Steyn as completely useless because while he opened many people's eyes to the dangers of Muslim immigration, he didn't come out and demand that it be ended. (Subsequently, Steyn more or less has done so.) But if Mark Steyn is performing an enormous service in an important area, why is it necessary to condemn him because he doesn't go quite as far rhetorically as you would? It's not as if Steyn is setting policy, after all. He's expressing opinions that may influence people to question the reigning narrative, and the result of that may change policy.

    Vox Day is sort of a professional egotist. I suspect that Vox really hates Peterson because he thinks that he deserves Peterson’s large fanbase, salary and media attention.

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  56. J.Ross says: • Website

    OT The height of 4D chess is the zugzwang of righteousness, forcing the SJWs to choose between defeating Trump or continuing to behave like children.

    http://newser.com/story/259211/how-liberals-can-persuade-quit-the-self-righteousness.html

    Retaliation against liberals may be what ends up getting President Trump re-elected. That’s Gerard Alexander’s take for the New York Times, in which he notes liberals are inspirational in their idealism and smart—but “not as smart and persuasive as they think.” Alexander warns that liberals, ensconced in what he says are positions of power in entertainment, media, and higher ed, may not realize “how provocative and inflammatory” they are with their progressive beliefs, and that they may be pushing away as many people as they’re attracting. Although liberals may (rightfully) be more on top of pushing narratives on such topics as racism and sexism into wider view, Alexander argues they may be forcing others to adapt too quickly. “Some liberals have gotten far out ahead of their fellow Americans but are nonetheless quick to criticize those who haven’t caught up with them,” he notes.

    If any progressives are reading, keep on with the Korean girls taking off their clothes! This is the way to defeat Trump!

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  57. Bill P says:

    BTW, I should add that Jordan Peterson strikes me as a neo-Stoic, and this adds to Tom Wolfe’s prophetic oevre in that he predicts Stoic evangelism in early 21st. Century America in his second novel A Man In Full. It really is kind of remarkable that way, at least to me.

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    • Agree: Simon in London
    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    Wolfe was amazingly prescient.

    https://twitter.com/dpinsen/status/988547325927751680
    , @utu
    After a hefty dose of SSRI's and Wellbutrin it should be pretty easy to be a stoic.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x35Rbe81vkU

    Do they always work?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvBm0ZUfe7I
    , @Stan d Mute
    Speaking of Tom Wolfe...

    A huge loss.

    I feared his Back to Blood would be his last. Even at his advanced age he saw South Florida as it is and understood it. And understood that it is perhaps the best example of what America is becoming.
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  58. OT–I made fun of NZ’s Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern some time ago bc she looks funny,* now somebody sent me a link that makes her look even funnier.** What’s wrong with people? There’s something really peculiar about all this current trans-mania.***

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacinda_Ardern

    * https://www.facebook.com/marek.moehling/posts/10155784807574738
    ** https://www.facebook.com/peter.vandenheuvel.79/videos/2226688874024786
    *** That said she’s expecting a baby, cf http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11978029 Curious and curiouser–what can’t these people do?

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    • Replies: @Anon

    That said she’s expecting a baby
     
    Expect the announcement of a tragic miscarriage.

    Tabloid newspapers can announce that celebrity marriages are on the verge of divorce, but then they've made up, but then they're on the verge of divorce, but made up, ad infinitum, and nobody can prove that any of the stories was false. Ardern could announce pregnanceies followed by miscarriages for several years. At her age the risk of miscarriage is pretty high, right?
    , @eD
    This is hugely OT, and may set some sort of record for OTness for iSteve. Anyway I went through this woman's Wikipedia article, and there is no hint that she has been anything other than a woman. She has a common law husband and a child. Wtf?
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  59. @Harry Baldwin
    I'm fascinated by the fact that Jordan Peterson has caused Vox Day to to go completely off the rails. I don't get it, honestly. Can't a man have many things to say that you find interesting and worthwhile, and others you disagree with without it causing you to condemn him unreservedly?

    This used to bother me about the late Lawrence Auster, whom I considered brilliant. He would condemn someone like Matk Steyn as completely useless because while he opened many people's eyes to the dangers of Muslim immigration, he didn't come out and demand that it be ended. (Subsequently, Steyn more or less has done so.) But if Mark Steyn is performing an enormous service in an important area, why is it necessary to condemn him because he doesn't go quite as far rhetorically as you would? It's not as if Steyn is setting policy, after all. He's expressing opinions that may influence people to question the reigning narrative, and the result of that may change policy.

    It doesn’t surprise me in the least that Vox Day is loosing his cheese-wizz over this.

    As I said in other words in another post still awaiting moderation: Peterson may be the single greatest existential threat to the alt-right – and the Alt-right understands that.

    I think the Maoist left understands him as a enemy they are programmed to try to destroy at all costs, but they probably don’t understand that if he succeeds, he’s their death too, as much so as that of the Alt-right.

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    • Replies: @Pat Hannagan
    Vox Day is Alt-Lite not Alt-Right.
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  60. JohnnyD says:
    @Luke Lea
    I am going to see Peterson in Nashville on June 10. Actually I am going to see who the audience is. I certainly don't agree with everything Peterson says. He's big on Nietzsche for instance, whom I frankly despise, and he can be sloppy with his historical dates, etc.. His Biblical interpretations are psychological whereas mine are economic/historical (see below) but none of that matters. I see him as a breath of fresh air in the shifting cultural winds.

    On the Adam and Eve myth: https://goo.gl/uikvFb

    On the Hebraic conception of God: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ie7d7efepZqFvwcCG-WNGlxyXKIpssU0ge3KM9o50K0/edit?usp=sharing

    On the teachings of Jesus: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ie7d7efepZqFvwcCG-WNGlxyXKIpssU0ge3KM9o50K0/edit?usp=sharing

    He’s also sloppy when it comes to Russian literature. While watching some of his videos about Dostoevsky, I kept noticing that Peterson was mixing up some of the plot details in Crime and Punishment and The Brothers Karamazov. You would think a serious intellectual would prepare his lectures better.

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  61. I recently finished 12 Rules and am done with Jordan Peterson. He offers false hope, the empty promise that with a few positive steps like cleaning your room young men of the West can look forward to a future of social belonging and respect. It’s the blue pill promise. Sorry, but that ship has passed.

    I recommend watching (or reading) Vox Day’s vivisection. Yes, it comes across as a little “off the rails” unless what Vox is saying is true, in which case his vehemence is quite reasonable. Paul Elam also presented an insightful analysis of Peterson’s inability to admit mistakes and likely family of origin issues.

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  62. Bliss says:
    @Jenner Ickham Errican

    But I would also recommend biting the bullet and setting aside 3 or 4 hours, maybe over a couple days to watch some videos.
     
    You serious?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvBm0ZUfe7I

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JErHX4HWu7c

    Holy shit!

    He clearly has mental issues. After checking some relevant videos on YouTube he seems to be suffering from congenital depression:

    At 33 seconds into the video.

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    • Replies: @Anon
    I think Peterson really cuts against a lot of contemporary trends that serve to delegitimize feelings and honesty. Among these trends are the pathologization of male emotion and the enrobing of everything you say that might make you vulnerable in irony or snark as a cover-your-ass tactic.

    As others have pointed out, he has gotten email and personal testimony from strangers who tell him that he helped them or even brought them back from suicidal thoughts. I don't see that you have to have to be mentally ill to cry from time to time when thinking about that.
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  63. Spud Boy says:
    @Harry Baldwin
    I'm fascinated by the fact that Jordan Peterson has caused Vox Day to to go completely off the rails. I don't get it, honestly. Can't a man have many things to say that you find interesting and worthwhile, and others you disagree with without it causing you to condemn him unreservedly?

    This used to bother me about the late Lawrence Auster, whom I considered brilliant. He would condemn someone like Matk Steyn as completely useless because while he opened many people's eyes to the dangers of Muslim immigration, he didn't come out and demand that it be ended. (Subsequently, Steyn more or less has done so.) But if Mark Steyn is performing an enormous service in an important area, why is it necessary to condemn him because he doesn't go quite as far rhetorically as you would? It's not as if Steyn is setting policy, after all. He's expressing opinions that may influence people to question the reigning narrative, and the result of that may change policy.

    Vox Day is an amateur troll who’s obviously chaffing at the reality of Jordan Peterson’s popularity and impact, while he toils away in obscurity, egged on only by his amen chorus of commenters who can’t tolerate even the mildest criticism.

    His latest Dorkstream is a rambling, incoherent assemblage of ad-homenims, such as saying Peterson is an “intellectual fraud”, whatever that means. Peterson is also claimed to have some five-degrees-of-separation link to John Podesta and George Soros. Yeah, whatever.

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  64. VD says:
    @Harry Baldwin
    I'm fascinated by the fact that Jordan Peterson has caused Vox Day to to go completely off the rails. I don't get it, honestly. Can't a man have many things to say that you find interesting and worthwhile, and others you disagree with without it causing you to condemn him unreservedly?

    This used to bother me about the late Lawrence Auster, whom I considered brilliant. He would condemn someone like Matk Steyn as completely useless because while he opened many people's eyes to the dangers of Muslim immigration, he didn't come out and demand that it be ended. (Subsequently, Steyn more or less has done so.) But if Mark Steyn is performing an enormous service in an important area, why is it necessary to condemn him because he doesn't go quite as far rhetorically as you would? It's not as if Steyn is setting policy, after all. He's expressing opinions that may influence people to question the reigning narrative, and the result of that may change policy.

    Off the rails? Hardly.

    Unlike practically all of Peterson’s fans, I have actually read what he has written, including The 12 Rules, Maps of Meaning, and A New Global Partnership. Unlike most of his fans who have read his work, I am sufficiently well-read to penetrate the incoherent stream of references that he uses to impress his naive and unsophisticated readers.

    This is a man who didn’t know Dante was the protagonist of The Divine Comedy. He claims all humans thought in terms of narrative until 500 years ago. He has apparently never read Aristotle, Aquinas, or Augustine, and does not refer to any of them even once in his 700-page book on the architecture of belief. (The two references to Aristotle in the index are contained in his quote of someone else.) His ability to construct an argument doesn’t even rise to the level of Sam Harris or Richard Dawkins. He even admits to habitually being dishonest with himself and others.

    The man is an utter intellectual charlatan, and if you are sufficiently familiar with his references or his historical references, you simply cannot escape that conclusion.

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    • Replies: @Luke Lea
    "The man is an utter intellectual charlatan . . ."

    Actually he is more original than that. More interesting than his sources (Jung, Nietzsche, Dostoevsky, etc), I would say, which he uses as a way to introduce his own take on the world.
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  65. J.Ross says: • Website

    OT Covering the online “alt-right” can lead to “digital PTSD”
    The temptation is to quote the whole thing.

    In a 2015 study by the British Psychological Society, 22 percent of individuals — though not journalists specifically — who repeatedly looked at violent videos or photos on social media scored high on clinical measures of PTSD. Not surprisingly, many of the journalists I spoke to for this story who have covered far-right extremism said they found it hard to return to normal life after covering these groups and digitally monitoring their activity.

    Michelle Ferrier is the founder of TrollBusters, an organization that offers support to journalists experiencing online abuse. “Online harassment or online abuse can lead to emotional, psychological, and professional harm,” Ferrier told The Outline. “The persistent and consistent exposure to harmful messages does lead to psychological effects. If journalists do not receive the support and control they need, the harm can lead to PTSD.”

    Last year, the most dangerous place to be a journalist in America was at a protest. According to a March report released by U.S. Press Freedom Tracker, protests were home to 29 arrests and 31 known physical attacks on journalists in 2017 alone. Other attacks on press freedom included having equipment seized and searched by law enforcement, or being denied access to traditionally open government events.

    Noor Al-Sibai, a staff writer at The Raw Story who covers white supremacy, Islamophobia, and D.C. politics, told me that even though she wasn’t at the “Unite the Right” rally last summer, she was impacted by online coverage of the event. After watching videos coming from Charlottesville and following first-hand accounts from local activists and journalists, Al-Sibai said she and her mother learned someone had died in the car attack. “[We] sat in a parking lot crying,” she recalled. “It was the worst case scenario.”

    Bonus: uses “they” to pronoun a Peter.

    https://theoutline.com/post/4543/journalists-ptsd-online-harassment-digital-ptsd-alt-right-white-nationalists

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    • Replies: @Svigor
    I hope that's true. Couldn't happen to people more deserving (they've been doing this to people and entire societies for generations).
    , @Anonymous
    Journalists increasingly aspire to be a protected minority group above criticism, rather than keeping up a professional interest in it. They are the guy in the huge neck-brace w/ quivering lip standing woefully before Judge Wapner. Lotta overlap lately between reporters and "concerned citizen" activist types, both fronts for Wall Street perverts basically
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  66. Avalanche says:
    @Harry Baldwin
    I'm fascinated by the fact that Jordan Peterson has caused Vox Day to to go completely off the rails. I don't get it, honestly. Can't a man have many things to say that you find interesting and worthwhile, and others you disagree with without it causing you to condemn him unreservedly?

    This used to bother me about the late Lawrence Auster, whom I considered brilliant. He would condemn someone like Matk Steyn as completely useless because while he opened many people's eyes to the dangers of Muslim immigration, he didn't come out and demand that it be ended. (Subsequently, Steyn more or less has done so.) But if Mark Steyn is performing an enormous service in an important area, why is it necessary to condemn him because he doesn't go quite as far rhetorically as you would? It's not as if Steyn is setting policy, after all. He's expressing opinions that may influence people to question the reigning narrative, and the result of that may change policy.

    Off the rails? Not really — and Peterson deserves the scorn and coals being heaped on his head. Sure, Peterson SEEMS as if he’s helping young men, but … helping them to what? Nihilism and inaction? Leftism and the end of the West? The loss of connection to their family and nation?
    IF, as Peterson insists, “group identity” is horrible, evil, and destructive and should be avoided like burning napalm – why does Peterson ALSO unequivocally support “group identity” for Israel/Jews and his Kwaquituatl (sp?) First Nations tribe?

    (From the partial transcript Vox Day posted on his blog): Vox Day, in his Dark Stream (on Periscope) said this — which makes perfect sense to anyone who has parents and has or wishes to have children!
    ===================
    “You know, I felt pity for him because he’s somebody who has clearly known a lot of suffering and tragedy in his life, but you know what, after I read those tweets where he was saying that you have no right to be proud of your culture, you have no right to be proud of your race, you have no right to be proud of your nation, you have no right to be proud of your tribe, you have no right to be proud of your people… you know what? F__k him!

    Anyone who is going tell me that I should not take pride in the tradition that my grandfather established for me, for my brothers, and for my children, can go to Hell. I have nothing but utter contempt for that attitude. You know, Petersen goes around saying “oh you should you should create your own standards and define your own truth and do your own thing” and all this kind of crap, that is not something that is going to preserve Western civilization, that is not something that is going to preserve the West’s traditions, and I’ll tell you something else. Jordan Peterson absolutely lies, because he says the goal of the far right is “to unjustly bathe in the glories of the past.”

    That is totally false. What we on the right want to do is we want to be worthy of the glories of the past. When we look at the story of Leonidas and the 300 Spartans we want to be inspired by that, we want to be worthy of that. You do not develop courage on your own, you develop courage by seeing the example in others, and especially in others like you, especially in your family members. …”
    ===================
    Go watch Vox Day’s 22-min DarkStream this transcript came from; see if it brings you some understanding of WHY Vox Day, and many of his blog readers, castigate Peterson.

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  67. J.Ross says: • Website

    One more from above linked article, with emphasis added:

    Over the course of the day, Al-Sibai said she followed the violent events on Facebook and Twitter, compulsively checking for updates “pretty much every 20 minutes.” Over the next week, she was doing what she described as “round the clock coverage” of the fallout. Al-Sibai said that being exposed to the neo-Nazis’ hateful speech took a toll, especially as an Arab-American woman with a Muslim upbringing. “These White Supremacists are so over the top about Jews and Muslims,” she said.

    In the weeks that followed, she reported symptoms of post-traumatic stress, such as dissociation, flashbacks to prior trauma, and recurring nightmares. “When I was on the clock, I don’t even think I could identify [the triggers],” she recalled. “It was very much a blur. I’m missing some of that time.”

    The immortal wisdom of Tyler the Creator regarding cyberbullying applies here, even though it was meant for those directly receiving cyberbullying and not those seeking out “hate speech” three times an hour.

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  68. J.Ross says: • Website

    One last quote regarding digital PTSD but you have to see this, all emphasis added because I’m literally shaking:

    According to Dr. Pam Ramsden, a lecturer of psychology at the University of Bradford who conducted the aforementioned study about viewing violent news on social media, some people don’t want to believe that online content can be detrimental to one’s mental health. But based on her research, frequent exposure to disturbing videos and photos can lead to depression, anxiety, and PTSD — even if they aren’t linked to a real-life experience, as they were for me.* “When people watch things online, it has the ability to be in real time,” she said. “People get the same results and same PTSD as if they were right there.”

    *See what she did there?

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  69. Lagertha says:
    @Anonymous

    Much of the confusion over Peterson seems to come from the interaction of three factors.
     
    But you know most of the confusion is about whether Peterson is a safe way to mellow out potential alt-righters or a gateway drug to far worse thoughtcrime.

    Your idea is excellent. I also think JohnnyD (#3) and Ramzpaul (#4) are accurate. I think Peterson may have been ambitious for a long time; truly believed in many of his ideas, but….he discovered the lost boys (my sons age group). Next, he made a Faustian deal with producers to try to bring young white men under control. I know this sounds dumb: what if instead of heroin (or, heroin not wasting enough white guys fast enough), Peterson is set up to seduce them into compliance with his est-like therapy sessions? I’m really dating myself by referring to est, haha!

    Read More
    • Replies: @Lagertha
    I hope I am wrong. He has attacked liberal group-think, cat ladies, the idea that gender fluidity is bs, and the danger of disparaging males. But, I do worry that he has flip-flopped on individualism/persuading young white men not to be conscious (form a very real, new identity group) of their cultural roots that may be shared, depending what region they are from. Here's the main video (dissected by the hosts) that irks people, now. The fact that Peterson is not familiar with Solzhenitsyn is troubling for me...or at least with the book the questioner is asking. Notice how the others in the audience react to this brave person. Maybe I just really am so cynical and paranoid these days, haha!
    https://youtu.be/mc3o4YmHJbc
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  70. Dave says:
    @Harry Baldwin
    I'm fascinated by the fact that Jordan Peterson has caused Vox Day to to go completely off the rails. I don't get it, honestly. Can't a man have many things to say that you find interesting and worthwhile, and others you disagree with without it causing you to condemn him unreservedly?

    This used to bother me about the late Lawrence Auster, whom I considered brilliant. He would condemn someone like Matk Steyn as completely useless because while he opened many people's eyes to the dangers of Muslim immigration, he didn't come out and demand that it be ended. (Subsequently, Steyn more or less has done so.) But if Mark Steyn is performing an enormous service in an important area, why is it necessary to condemn him because he doesn't go quite as far rhetorically as you would? It's not as if Steyn is setting policy, after all. He's expressing opinions that may influence people to question the reigning narrative, and the result of that may change policy.

    Vox has developed a strange obsession with Peterson, and at this point it’s rather pathetic.
    Vox is obviously a bright guy, but he has torn into Peterson with the fury of a scorned lover. He has convinced himself that Peterson is a minion of the Anti Christ, and Vox’s fanboys have gone all in with this supposed takedown.
    Not that Peterson cares, or even knows, who Vox is.
    Vox has some daddy issues, and anyone who cares to read about it can look up Theodore Beale, Vox’s true name, on wiki or Infogalactic.
    His father did time in Federal for threatening to assassinate some judges, as well as developing some sort of Fundie cult that ended up in arrests.
    Vox is sperging on Peterson and I think there is some serious projection going on.

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    • Replies: @Peripatetic commenter

    His father did time in Federal for threatening to assassinate some judges, as well as developing some sort of Fundie cult that ended up in arrests.
     
    Do you have some cites for that because it would be useful to add to Wiki or Infogalactic.
    , @Tully
    You JP fans are really something else. . I suspect it's because you have daddy issues, or maybe you're just jealous of Vox.
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  71. OT: Someone else is brave enough to write about the KKKrazy Glue holding together the Democratic party and how it’s not enough:

    It would appear that the “emerging Democratic majority” requires anti-white identity politics as its midwife.

    http://theweek.com/articles/772590/white-minority-illusion

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    • Replies: @Whiskey
    The glue will probably hold. White women are explicit if junior members of the coalition.

    Dems are not stupid. They can count too. California is a contest for who is the most anti White and pro illegal.
    , @J.Ross
    Nice find.
    (By the way, Steve, assuming I'm not just thrown out, posting a moderation policy would probably help adherence, if adherence to that policy is a goal.)
    , @Mr. Anon

    It would appear that the “emerging Democratic majority” requires anti-white identity politics as its midwife.

    http://theweek.com/articles/772590/white-minority-illusion
     
    That article is notable for the candor of both the author and the people he quotes. They take it as a given that their program - the program of the political left - is the race-displacement of white Americans and the complete rejection of the actual historical America, from its inception right up through the current year. They're not even trying to hide it anymore.
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  72. TWS says:

    Peterson is the approved opposition. Got to keep boys on the left reservation.

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  73. @Jenner Ickham Errican

    But I would also recommend biting the bullet and setting aside 3 or 4 hours, maybe over a couple days to watch some videos.
     
    You serious?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvBm0ZUfe7I

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JErHX4HWu7c

    I suppose that first video is appropriate for a thread on the Passion of Jordan Peterson. I haven’t seen much of his work but as far as I can tell a recent comment on Unz by stillCARealist aptly describes the Essential Peterson:

    “He’s basically a social conservative dwelling in a world of extreme social liberals. He advocates for life long marriage and children, abandoning porn, staying sober, working hard at something you’re good at, saving, telling the truth, helping others, Christianity-lite, eating less, getting off meds if you can, and much more. This is the heart of conservatism, the restraining of the appetites and the impulses to make profitable long-term decisions.”

    Fundamentally, it’s common-sense stuff – and much needed in this age of loosened restraints. Throw off your attachments to modern distractions and take on yourself. I’m sure it can be life-changing for those encountering this content that have no one around to tell them this. Within the realm of practical philosophy – street philosophy – there are 1) political philosophers concerned with societal welfare and freedom, and 2) existential philosophers concerned primarily with the emancipation/development of the individual out of his own irrational nature. Peterson is clearly based in that second camp. In a time of a modern decadence that would be unimaginable to the ancient Romans that gave meaning to the term, Peterson stands nearly alone among the ruins, endeavoring to restore civilization from the ground up.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Luke Lea
    "“He’s basically a social conservative dwelling in a world of extreme social liberals. He advocates for life long marriage and children, abandoning porn, staying sober, working hard at something you’re good at, saving, telling the truth, helping others, Christianity-lite, eating less, getting off meds if you can, and much more. This is the heart of conservatism, the restraining of the appetites and the impulses to make profitable long-term decisions.”

    Fundamentally, it’s common-sense stuff – and much needed in this age of loosened restraints. Throw off your attachments to modern distractions and take on yourself. I’m sure it can be life-changing for those encountering this content that have no one around to tell them this. Within the realm of practical philosophy – street philosophy – there are 1) political philosophers concerned with societal welfare and freedom, and 2) existential philosophers concerned primarily with the emancipation/development of the individual out of his own irrational nature. Peterson is clearly based in that second camp. In a time of a modern decadence that would be unimaginable to the ancient Romans that gave meaning to the term, Peterson stands nearly alone among the ruins, endeavoring to restore civilization from the ground up."

    Nice summary.
    , @anon
    This is ground so empty that Dr. Phil made a career of it. As far as being an intellectual, he seems to be competent enough in psychology.

    He seems like one of the few Academics willing to discuss the extent to which white males are demonized directly and as collateral damage of identity politics. He has his weaknesses in other areas.

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  74. anonymous[340] • Disclaimer says:
    @Dave Pinsen
    Why does "Lord" attach to the last name, but "Sir" attach to the first?

    Enough of the Emily Posts!

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  75. @Harry Baldwin
    I'm fascinated by the fact that Jordan Peterson has caused Vox Day to to go completely off the rails. I don't get it, honestly. Can't a man have many things to say that you find interesting and worthwhile, and others you disagree with without it causing you to condemn him unreservedly?

    This used to bother me about the late Lawrence Auster, whom I considered brilliant. He would condemn someone like Matk Steyn as completely useless because while he opened many people's eyes to the dangers of Muslim immigration, he didn't come out and demand that it be ended. (Subsequently, Steyn more or less has done so.) But if Mark Steyn is performing an enormous service in an important area, why is it necessary to condemn him because he doesn't go quite as far rhetorically as you would? It's not as if Steyn is setting policy, after all. He's expressing opinions that may influence people to question the reigning narrative, and the result of that may change policy.

    Too many people here are letting the perfect be the enemy of the good. Be practical! Let the left consume themselves in a purity arms race!

    If Peterson stops young men from being SJW fags, then he’s doing the Lord’s work.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Svigor
    The proper alt-right attitude is that everyone being led away from the left, even the ones being led away by pied pipers, is gonna get red-pilled.
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  76. Anonymous[270] • Disclaimer says:

    Only partly OT:

    Below is an illustration of how easily cowed and cowardly are scientific elites are (not all, obviously, but a clear majority):

    1. Last week on a small but prestigious meeting (The Biology of Genomes, BoG18 – taking place, it should be noted, at Cold Spring Harbor Lab, a place where James Watson headed for decades, and made into a world-class institution), a noted geneticist Eric Lander toasted Watson with a glass of bubbly on an occasion of Watson’s 90th birthday.

    2. Somewhat well-known geneticist (and radical) Jonathan Eisen (professor at UC Davis) was enraged and posted this on Twitter:

    By toasting Jim Watson, Eric Lander is saying that sexism, racism, anti-semitism, and all sorts of forms of harassment and vile behavior by someone in power in science is A-OK – disgusting #BOG18

    And just in case the person who posted this takes down the video, I have downloaded it and am posting it here because I think it is an important record of a horrific action by Eric Lander #BOG18

    His brother Michael Eisen (professor at UC Berkeley) followed:

    I don’t care how old James Watson is. He surrendered any right to be honored when he chose repeatedly, over many decades, to publicly demean women, Jews, people of African descent and countless others, and Eric Lander is despicable for willfully ignoring this history. #BOG18

    3. This was enough to trigger the litany of confessions:

    Eric Lander:

    Last week I agreed to toast James Watson for the Human Genome Project on his 90th birthday. My brief comment about his being “flawed” did not go nearly far enough. His views are abhorrent: racist, sexist, anti-semitic. I was wrong to toast. I apologize.

    Jonathan Pritchard:

    As an organizer of the BoG meeting I was aware of the plan to toast James Watson on his 90th birthday. I did not speak up against this plan and I sincerely apologize for this failure. Watson’s views are vile and they do not reflect the values of our community or of this meeting.

    Lax Iyer:

    To be fair no one including me who were there stood up and said anything. I guess We were all carried away by 3 days of science. However, that is no excuse to not condemn such abhorrent behavior! We stand corrected.

    Dana Peer:

    As an organizer of the BoG, I was aware and I did not speak up against this plan. Watson’s views vile and abhorrent and I sincerely apologize for this tainting, which absolutely does not reflect BoG, nor my values.

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    • Replies: @MBlanc46
    Apparently even science is lost now. Sad.
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  77. Tiny Duck says:

    Good grief – do your research, and see what Canadian courts in his homeland have said about Jordan Peterson’s failed attempts to testify as an expert witness. Essentially, a junk scientist.

    https://t.co/xSWFDsII3g?amp=1

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  78. @Harry Baldwin
    I'm fascinated by the fact that Jordan Peterson has caused Vox Day to to go completely off the rails. I don't get it, honestly. Can't a man have many things to say that you find interesting and worthwhile, and others you disagree with without it causing you to condemn him unreservedly?

    This used to bother me about the late Lawrence Auster, whom I considered brilliant. He would condemn someone like Matk Steyn as completely useless because while he opened many people's eyes to the dangers of Muslim immigration, he didn't come out and demand that it be ended. (Subsequently, Steyn more or less has done so.) But if Mark Steyn is performing an enormous service in an important area, why is it necessary to condemn him because he doesn't go quite as far rhetorically as you would? It's not as if Steyn is setting policy, after all. He's expressing opinions that may influence people to question the reigning narrative, and the result of that may change policy.

    Vox Day was never on the rails. Regardless of his ideology it’s pretty clear from his writing style that he’s a psycho.

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  79. @Jenner Ickham Errican

    But I would also recommend biting the bullet and setting aside 3 or 4 hours, maybe over a couple days to watch some videos.
     
    You serious?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvBm0ZUfe7I

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JErHX4HWu7c

    bored identity strongly believes that only a hollow bastard would refuse to bite the bullet, and avoid being profoundly touched by J. Hitlerson’s bang whimper:

    bored identity is a hollow bastard.

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  80. Lagertha says:
    @Lagertha
    Your idea is excellent. I also think JohnnyD (#3) and Ramzpaul (#4) are accurate. I think Peterson may have been ambitious for a long time; truly believed in many of his ideas, but....he discovered the lost boys (my sons age group). Next, he made a Faustian deal with producers to try to bring young white men under control. I know this sounds dumb: what if instead of heroin (or, heroin not wasting enough white guys fast enough), Peterson is set up to seduce them into compliance with his est-like therapy sessions? I'm really dating myself by referring to est, haha!

    I hope I am wrong. He has attacked liberal group-think, cat ladies, the idea that gender fluidity is bs, and the danger of disparaging males. But, I do worry that he has flip-flopped on individualism/persuading young white men not to be conscious (form a very real, new identity group) of their cultural roots that may be shared, depending what region they are from. Here’s the main video (dissected by the hosts) that irks people, now. The fact that Peterson is not familiar with Solzhenitsyn is troubling for me…or at least with the book the questioner is asking. Notice how the others in the audience react to this brave person. Maybe I just really am so cynical and paranoid these days, haha!

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  81. Anonymous[121] • Disclaimer says:

    Thus, Peterson’s endorsement of old individualistic standards of behavior and excellence is widely seen by The Establishment as racist and fascist because, they fear, that white males are likely to accomplish disproportionately more under objective standards.

    Also useful to Jews eager to press the case that they achieved more than white gentiles due to meritocratic factors.

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  82. Dave Pinsen says: • Website
    @Bill P
    BTW, I should add that Jordan Peterson strikes me as a neo-Stoic, and this adds to Tom Wolfe's prophetic oevre in that he predicts Stoic evangelism in early 21st. Century America in his second novel A Man In Full. It really is kind of remarkable that way, at least to me.

    Wolfe was amazingly prescient.

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    • Agree: Percy Gryce
    • Replies: @TelfoedJohn
    Wolfe has just died. RIP

    https://www.theguardian.com/books/2018/may/15/tom-wolfe-journalist-and-author-dies-aged-87
    , @Bill P
    And on that note Tom Wolfe leaves the stage. What a remarkable American man.
    , @Jim Don Bob
    Tom Wolfe, RIP. I was hoping he'd live forever. I have read most everything he wrote and wish there were more.
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  83. Anonymous[121] • Disclaimer says:

    a self-help guru for young men

    Having read rule 1 & 2 in his book 12 RULES, he isn’t really a self-help guru.

    By ‘rules’, he really means rules that govern the cosmos, the world, society, humanity, animals, and all the way down to simplest organisms and atoms.

    The usual shtick with self-help ‘gurus’ is they tell you follow some so-and-so step program. They offer a specified formula of habit and behavior.

    Peterson’s advice, if it could be called that, is different. It’s a psycho-philosophical exegesis on the animating forces that govern everything from stars to planets to man to lobsters to cells. He wants people to be conscious of those forces — all around us but invisible precisely because it’s all around us — and find ways to act accordingly. Because each person exists on a different rung in the hierarchy, he will have to find his own way once he understands where Peterson is coming from.

    On the Jewish Question. Let’s just say it’s Kryptonite for anyone who wants to make it in the mainstream sphere.

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  84. Anon[362] • Disclaimer says:
    @theo the kraut
    OT--I made fun of NZ's Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern some time ago bc she looks funny,* now somebody sent me a link that makes her look even funnier.** What's wrong with people? There's something really peculiar about all this current trans-mania.***

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacinda_Ardern

    * https://www.facebook.com/marek.moehling/posts/10155784807574738
    ** https://www.facebook.com/peter.vandenheuvel.79/videos/2226688874024786
    *** That said she's expecting a baby, cf http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11978029 Curious and curiouser--what can't these people do?

    That said she’s expecting a baby

    Expect the announcement of a tragic miscarriage.

    Tabloid newspapers can announce that celebrity marriages are on the verge of divorce, but then they’ve made up, but then they’re on the verge of divorce, but made up, ad infinitum, and nobody can prove that any of the stories was false. Ardern could announce pregnanceies followed by miscarriages for several years. At her age the risk of miscarriage is pretty high, right?

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    • Replies: @22pp22
    The baby's due soon. I live in NZ and I wouldn't vote Labour or Green if my life depended on it.

    Jacinda and the National leader Simon Bridges have been well known for years. The used to appear on a talk show.

    She's not a trannie. She's a normal woman with large teeth. It's not a disqualification for being PM.

    What's wrong with her is that she is idiotically spendthrift.
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  85. @Harry Baldwin
    I'm fascinated by the fact that Jordan Peterson has caused Vox Day to to go completely off the rails. I don't get it, honestly. Can't a man have many things to say that you find interesting and worthwhile, and others you disagree with without it causing you to condemn him unreservedly?

    This used to bother me about the late Lawrence Auster, whom I considered brilliant. He would condemn someone like Matk Steyn as completely useless because while he opened many people's eyes to the dangers of Muslim immigration, he didn't come out and demand that it be ended. (Subsequently, Steyn more or less has done so.) But if Mark Steyn is performing an enormous service in an important area, why is it necessary to condemn him because he doesn't go quite as far rhetorically as you would? It's not as if Steyn is setting policy, after all. He's expressing opinions that may influence people to question the reigning narrative, and the result of that may change policy.

    If Peterson is behind efforts to flood Western nations with migrants -including that work with the UN, etc., (who knows what else) – this in addition to his anti-nationalist propaganda, his outspoken denunciations of identifying with your heritage, his mocking of people taking pride in their identity and caring and defending their roots and ancestry, calling them losers, and so on, except of course for a certain special group he loves deeply and weeps for, well I do not blame Vox Day one bit for going on the attack. It’s abooot bloody time buckos.

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    • Replies: @BEER/ we're all going to die
    Gee thx Steve.
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  86. My opinion of Peterson nose-dived in the last month or so. His sucking up to Big Jew is frankly pathetic. Looked at dispassionately though, it’s for the best. Peterson and his fans are learning for themselves what others already knew. They’re seeing how the organized community runs its standard carrot & stick operation.

    Near the beginning of his open letter, Jordan Peterson: writes:

    “… my publicist, Rob Greenwald …. I recently hired Rob to help me plan a more conscious media strategy (having been at the receiving end of the best, but also the worst, of journalistic activity)”

    Mr Greenwald can make these accusations of anti-Semitism go away, my dear Dr. Peterson.

    https://jordanbpeterson.com/uncategorized/the-forward-fiasco-starring-ari-feldman-jordan-b-peterson-deborah-lipstadt-and-helen-chernikoff/

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    • Replies: @Yngvar
    Forward attacked him. Must mean something.
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  87. @Old Palo Altan
    If, Steve, you are going to champion the old elites (which of course I applaud) then at least learn how they refer to themselves. There never was a "Lord Kenneth Clark", who, had he existed, would have been the younger son of either a duke or a marquess. An example of this set, one you have more than once referred to here, was Lord Randolph Churchill, younger son of the Duke of Marlborough and father of that old fraud Winston.

    Kenneth Clark was awarded a life peerage in 1969 as "Baron Clark of Saltwood in the County of Kent".
    "Baron" is never used in pubic discourse or in a social setting, but only in legal documents of a kind increasingly rare; thus he, and any other baron, is always referred to as "Lord X", in has case, of course, simply as "Lord Clark".

    There is, I promise you, a distinct satisfaction in getting these things right.

    “Baron” is never used in pubic discourse or in a social setting, but only in legal documents of a kind increasingly rare; thus he, and any other baron, is always referred to as “Lord X”, in has case, of course, simply as “Lord Clark”. There is, I promise you, a distinct satisfaction in getting these things right.

    There is, I promise you, a distinct satisfaction in pubic discourse.

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    • LOL: BB753
    • Replies: @Old Palo Altan
    Funny, people will keep telling me I need reading glasses.
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  88. Northeast says:
    @Harry Baldwin
    I'm fascinated by the fact that Jordan Peterson has caused Vox Day to to go completely off the rails. I don't get it, honestly. Can't a man have many things to say that you find interesting and worthwhile, and others you disagree with without it causing you to condemn him unreservedly?

    This used to bother me about the late Lawrence Auster, whom I considered brilliant. He would condemn someone like Matk Steyn as completely useless because while he opened many people's eyes to the dangers of Muslim immigration, he didn't come out and demand that it be ended. (Subsequently, Steyn more or less has done so.) But if Mark Steyn is performing an enormous service in an important area, why is it necessary to condemn him because he doesn't go quite as far rhetorically as you would? It's not as if Steyn is setting policy, after all. He's expressing opinions that may influence people to question the reigning narrative, and the result of that may change policy.

    I agree with your take on Auster and Vox Day, but Vox is in no way as intelligent as Auster was. Not even in the same league. Vox Day is an angry crank who babbles on and on about his 150+ IQ. If his IQ was above 110 I would be shocked.

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  89. @Jenner Ickham Errican

    But I would also recommend biting the bullet and setting aside 3 or 4 hours, maybe over a couple days to watch some videos.
     
    You serious?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvBm0ZUfe7I

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JErHX4HWu7c

    In that first video he seems demented.

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  90. Hodag says:

    I too have been attempting to ignore Peterson. But I am much older than his target audience. From what I have seen he is trying to give commensense advice to young men who have been fed a torrent of bullshit their entire lives. And for that he is to be commended.

    Somewhere in the red pill, manosphere stuff there is some truth. Women do not want a girlfriend but they do not want to be your slave either. They want some direction and an idea that you can have a productive future together. Most women want children and those who do not are to be avoided. Family life is sweet even if it means fewer total lifetime golf rounds.

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  91. Rod1963 says:
    @27 year old
    Jordan Peterson seems like a gateway drug to me. Peterson-ism is not great but it beats the hell out of bugman-ism and nihilism as far as I can tell.

    And you could say he is better for White young men than a lot of "hardcore alt right". "Clean up your room" is much more useful advice than "wake up normies to the JQ!!" He's done a hell of a lot more for lost Whites than say Paul Nehlen.

    I also think the fixation with him being on some UN panel is way off. Sorry he's not a loser shitposting in his pajamas all the time and people out in the real world respect him and value his input? If you want to win, you need people like this.

    I'm curious to see where he goes and how this plays out.

    As a old Paleocon guy(56), I quite agree with your view of Peterson. He’s something good for young white guys who are totally abandoned by contemporary culture and a education system that just wants to drug the more curious ones into zombies. They are getting hate from all sides simply for being white and male.

    Yes his advice is much more useful for young whites – hell getting your head on straight before doing anything is a must. Peterson wants people to succeed. In this he is far more useful and relevant than some HBD type ranting endlessly about Jews or IQ. Which does exactly nothing for these young men except make them angry.

    And our movement needs men of his caliber if we want to win. That much is certain. Right now we have no one approaching his level and reach. That has to change if alt-right is to grow and become relevant.

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  92. I find it very sad that young men and women today need someone like Jordan Peterson to tell them to stand up straight and become responsible adults.

    Why is Jordan’s message so novel to young people? Why is there such a large hole in our culture?

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  93. @Jenner Ickham Errican

    But I would also recommend biting the bullet and setting aside 3 or 4 hours, maybe over a couple days to watch some videos.
     
    You serious?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvBm0ZUfe7I

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JErHX4HWu7c

    bored identity strongly believes that only a hollow bastard would refuse to bite the bullet, and avoid being profoundly touched by J. Hitlerson’s bang whimper:

    bored identity is a hollow bastard.

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  94. @Harry Baldwin
    I'm fascinated by the fact that Jordan Peterson has caused Vox Day to to go completely off the rails. I don't get it, honestly. Can't a man have many things to say that you find interesting and worthwhile, and others you disagree with without it causing you to condemn him unreservedly?

    This used to bother me about the late Lawrence Auster, whom I considered brilliant. He would condemn someone like Matk Steyn as completely useless because while he opened many people's eyes to the dangers of Muslim immigration, he didn't come out and demand that it be ended. (Subsequently, Steyn more or less has done so.) But if Mark Steyn is performing an enormous service in an important area, why is it necessary to condemn him because he doesn't go quite as far rhetorically as you would? It's not as if Steyn is setting policy, after all. He's expressing opinions that may influence people to question the reigning narrative, and the result of that may change policy.

    Auster’s irascible excommunication of anyone who disagreed with him was delightful. (Though I surely remember it as more enjoyable since his passing. At the time it irked me. He considered Steve a Jew hater beyond the pale.) He was my first encounter with a Christian Jew whose conversion had seemed to increase his tribal bloodthirst.

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    • Replies: @Uilleam Yr Alban
    Here is a quintessential example of Auster’s way:

    http://www.amnation.com/vfr/archives/014609.html
    , @Kevin Michael Grace
    I was friendly with Larry Auster, and he reprinted a bunch of stuff I sent him. Then I said something about Saddam Hussein he didn't like. He anathemized me and sicced his followers on me. A couple years later, I communicated again with him. He seemed to have forgotten his earlier fury and once again reprinted a bunch of stuff I sent him. I miss him
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  95. Whiskey says: • Website
    @Chief Seattle
    OT: Someone else is brave enough to write about the KKKrazy Glue holding together the Democratic party and how it's not enough:

    It would appear that the "emerging Democratic majority" requires anti-white identity politics as its midwife.

    http://theweek.com/articles/772590/white-minority-illusion

    The glue will probably hold. White women are explicit if junior members of the coalition.

    Dems are not stupid. They can count too. California is a contest for who is the most anti White and pro illegal.

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  96. If you want to understand the Peterson phenomenon then you really need to check out https://voxday.blogspot.com — Vox has spent the past week or two taking Peterson apart from the right in a series of posts and videos. It’s pretty brutal.

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  97. @The Z Blog
    A few months ago I compared him to Stephen Covey: http://thezman.com/wordpress/?p=12851

    I'm agnostic on these guys. Maybe there is some utility in their very mild push back against the prevailing orthodoxy. They tend to come and go, so there is a chance they are just useful distractions for the people steamrolling the culture. Sort of like the opponent for a barnstorming professional team.

    His responses to the JQ stuff have been pointless and wacky, so I suspect he is not as clever as he lets on. He would have been wise to avoid the topic entirely. Staying in your lane is how you stay a guru.

    Z-man, you wrote perceptively:

    There’s another unique twist to Peterson. He has used his status as victim of the Cult of Modern Liberalism to ingratiate himself with his audience. Most self-help guys eschew the victim stuff.

    Peterson is not the first person to try to transform the western philosophical traditions into self-help. Comparison with, for example, the success of Tom Morris of If Aristotle Ran General Motors… is instructive. As you note, Peterson’s current popularity is tied to the ways in which he departs the normal self-help mold. He is, in a sense, providing self-help for people with significantly lowered expectations–young people who imagine themselves living up to their parents standard of living rather than imagine themselves becoming CEOs.

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  98. yaxhy says:
    @Harry Baldwin
    I'm fascinated by the fact that Jordan Peterson has caused Vox Day to to go completely off the rails. I don't get it, honestly. Can't a man have many things to say that you find interesting and worthwhile, and others you disagree with without it causing you to condemn him unreservedly?

    This used to bother me about the late Lawrence Auster, whom I considered brilliant. He would condemn someone like Matk Steyn as completely useless because while he opened many people's eyes to the dangers of Muslim immigration, he didn't come out and demand that it be ended. (Subsequently, Steyn more or less has done so.) But if Mark Steyn is performing an enormous service in an important area, why is it necessary to condemn him because he doesn't go quite as far rhetorically as you would? It's not as if Steyn is setting policy, after all. He's expressing opinions that may influence people to question the reigning narrative, and the result of that may change policy.

    leapfrogging loyalty?

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  99. @Uilleam Yr Alban
    Auster’s irascible excommunication of anyone who disagreed with him was delightful. (Though I surely remember it as more enjoyable since his passing. At the time it irked me. He considered Steve a Jew hater beyond the pale.) He was my first encounter with a Christian Jew whose conversion had seemed to increase his tribal bloodthirst.

    Here is a quintessential example of Auster’s way:

    http://www.amnation.com/vfr/archives/014609.html

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  100. @Dave Pinsen
    Why does "Lord" attach to the last name, but "Sir" attach to the first?

    “Sir” reflects the status of an individual, whereas “Lord” is appended to hereditary titles. When “Baron Clark” was created, a new baronetcy “Clark of Saltwood” was created–something qualitatively different from being knighted. I guess…

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    • Replies: @Chrisnonymous
    Correction: "baronetcy" is the wrong term. I'm not sure what the correct term should be ("barony" doesn't seem to be right, either). At any rate, I think the underlying concept is correct--Kenneth Clark was elevated to the peerage, and, as the peers inhabit their own domains, so to speak (as opposed to being granted the status of knighthood), the domain of Clark of Saltwood, of which Kenneth Clark became the Lord, was created.
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  101. Liza says:
    @Old Palo Altan
    If, Steve, you are going to champion the old elites (which of course I applaud) then at least learn how they refer to themselves. There never was a "Lord Kenneth Clark", who, had he existed, would have been the younger son of either a duke or a marquess. An example of this set, one you have more than once referred to here, was Lord Randolph Churchill, younger son of the Duke of Marlborough and father of that old fraud Winston.

    Kenneth Clark was awarded a life peerage in 1969 as "Baron Clark of Saltwood in the County of Kent".
    "Baron" is never used in pubic discourse or in a social setting, but only in legal documents of a kind increasingly rare; thus he, and any other baron, is always referred to as "Lord X", in has case, of course, simply as "Lord Clark".

    There is, I promise you, a distinct satisfaction in getting these things right.

    “Baron” is never used in pubic discourse or in a social setting

    What particular kind of pubic [sic] discourse? Jes’ askin’.

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  102. @Chrisnonymous
    "Sir" reflects the status of an individual, whereas "Lord" is appended to hereditary titles. When "Baron Clark" was created, a new baronetcy "Clark of Saltwood" was created--something qualitatively different from being knighted. I guess...

    Correction: “baronetcy” is the wrong term. I’m not sure what the correct term should be (“barony” doesn’t seem to be right, either). At any rate, I think the underlying concept is correct–Kenneth Clark was elevated to the peerage, and, as the peers inhabit their own domains, so to speak (as opposed to being granted the status of knighthood), the domain of Clark of Saltwood, of which Kenneth Clark became the Lord, was created.

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    • Replies: @Hibernian
    I don't know much about this but I think the peerages of Life Peers end when the peer dies. They're Lord or Lady of some place in the UK but their kids don't inherit the title. I can only speculate about the reason for this, but I think if they kept enobling commoners and letting their kids inherit the title, the House of Lords might eventually have to meet in the equivalent of an American pro sports arena.
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  103. utu says:
    @Bill P
    BTW, I should add that Jordan Peterson strikes me as a neo-Stoic, and this adds to Tom Wolfe's prophetic oevre in that he predicts Stoic evangelism in early 21st. Century America in his second novel A Man In Full. It really is kind of remarkable that way, at least to me.

    After a hefty dose of SSRI’s and Wellbutrin it should be pretty easy to be a stoic.

    Do they always work?

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  104. Anon[808] • Disclaimer says:

    anomie and fecklessness

    What a great turn of phrase! And I believe you really know those words, and chose them as appropriate to the situation. They are very thesaurus-resistant words. You either know them or you don’t.

    Steve, what was your SAT verbal score?

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  105. Anonymous[808] • Disclaimer says:

    Typo:

    “widely seen by The Establishment as racist and fascist because, they fear, that white males are likely to accomplish disproportionately more”

    This should be one of the following:

    – because they fear that white males [no commas]

    – because, they fear, white males [no that]

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  106. AndrewR says:
    @The Z Blog
    A few months ago I compared him to Stephen Covey: http://thezman.com/wordpress/?p=12851

    I'm agnostic on these guys. Maybe there is some utility in their very mild push back against the prevailing orthodoxy. They tend to come and go, so there is a chance they are just useful distractions for the people steamrolling the culture. Sort of like the opponent for a barnstorming professional team.

    His responses to the JQ stuff have been pointless and wacky, so I suspect he is not as clever as he lets on. He would have been wise to avoid the topic entirely. Staying in your lane is how you stay a guru.

    How could he avoid the topic entirely? I am not an expert on all this drama between Peterson, MacDonald, Pinker, etc, but my vague impression is that Peterson has repeatedly been explicitly asked to address the JQ by at least some semi-notable figures. I’m not going to attempt to verify this impression, because it would require a fair amount if work and it’s not that important to me, but hopefully more-knowledgeable ["knowledgeabler" really ought to be a word] people can elucidate.

    More broadly, how can one be involved in anything resembling dissident-right politics while avoiding the JQ? He’s made a big name for himself critiquing feminism and ostentatiously refusing to use trannies’ preferred pronouns. No, he doesn’t get to avoid the JQ entirely. “Staying in his lane” would mean doing what Roosh, Sailer and others do: acknowledging Jewish power without obsessing over it endlessly. He should have said “yes, there seems to be compelling Jewish power and privilege, but that stuff doesn’t really interest me as much as feminism/leftism-in-general/etc.” That’s how he could maintain his integrity without stepping on too many (((toes))).

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    • Replies: @Dissident

    He should have said “yes, there seems to be compelling Jewish power and privilege, but that stuff doesn’t really interest me as much as feminism/leftism-in-general/etc.”
     
    Can one say even that much without getting blacklisted? Did you read the (hysterical, utterly preposterous) quotes from the Forward piece that Mr. Sailer posted about?
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  107. The article on Jordan Peterson is very long and somewhat interesting (I ended up skimming a lot). Readers might also be interested in Scott ALexander’s review of his book over at SSC, which I assume Steve has read.

    One thing this article seems to have in common with other discussions of Peterson is positing a kind of dichotomy between Peterson as vicious/virtuous reactionary culture warrior and as self-help guru.

    However, the people who describe him as helping the lost youth get their lives together are missing the fact that he’s only been around for a couple years at most. Just as you can lose weight on any diet, and the question of keeping the weight off is a different matter, and just as we can’t really remark on the safety of brand new medicines, we can’t really evaluate Peterson’s effect on society or individuals…

    From the article:

    I spoke to a Hispanic man named Joseph. “I was smoking too much weed. I was drinking too much. I hadn’t talked to my family in years. I didn’t think I needed anyone. Now I know that I do,” he said, wiping away tears.

    Ok, but where is this taking this young man?

    I asked if [Peterson's reader] had tried other self-help programs or books. “Yeah, but none has ever made a difference.” I noted that Peterson’s message is a dark one. “That’s why I like it. When he says, ‘Life is suffering,’ that resonates very deeply. You can tell he’s not bullshitting us.”

    I think it’s entirely possible that we are just seeing a phenomenon of someone appealing to growing disenchantment. As entry into the middle class becomes harder and harder, Peterson’s promotion of middle-class bourgeois behaviors may have a lot of appeal to people. But while personal reform may be a component of social, political, economic renaissance–clean your room before changing the world, in Peterson’s lingo–it doesn’t follow that cleaning your room will eventually lead to a changed world.

    I fear Jordan Peterson is just another sign of slow social collapse.

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  108. Anon[808] • Disclaimer says:
    @Old Palo Altan
    If, Steve, you are going to champion the old elites (which of course I applaud) then at least learn how they refer to themselves. There never was a "Lord Kenneth Clark", who, had he existed, would have been the younger son of either a duke or a marquess. An example of this set, one you have more than once referred to here, was Lord Randolph Churchill, younger son of the Duke of Marlborough and father of that old fraud Winston.

    Kenneth Clark was awarded a life peerage in 1969 as "Baron Clark of Saltwood in the County of Kent".
    "Baron" is never used in pubic discourse or in a social setting, but only in legal documents of a kind increasingly rare; thus he, and any other baron, is always referred to as "Lord X", in has case, of course, simply as "Lord Clark".

    There is, I promise you, a distinct satisfaction in getting these things right.

    Yes, this British peerage stuff is fascinating. I knew absolutely noting about it until I read the recent Times article (paywall) about the campaign to retroactively revoke the peerage of the late Marquess Alfred Hawthorne “Benny” Hill for numerous offensive activities during his lifetime.

    Also, they toppled a statue of him on a steed that the city of Southampton had erected in 1995 in front of the Hollister entrance to the Westquay shopping center.

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    • Replies: @BB753
    What kind of offensive activities? Of the #metoo kind?
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  109. “Wesley” Yang?

    Didn’t Methodism have some connection to the Taiping Rebellion?

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    • Replies: @Gross Terry
    Chinese love anglo names. Beats me why. I know a Gawaine, Elaine, and an Albert chinaman.
    , @Charles Pewitt
    Wesley Yang supplies The Wesley House on Martha's Vineyard with whale meat for the summer season.

    I see they changed the name of the Wesley House to the Wesley Hotel to Summercamp from my internet investigation. That doesn't change the fact that Methodists like whale meat and potato salad.

    WesleyYang: Nincompoop Of The North:

    https://twitter.com/longform/status/702556812323766272
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  110. OT Somali-Americans; the gift that keeps on giving

    https://www.americanexperiment.org/2018/05/worst-scandal-minnesota-history/

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  111. Anon[318] • Disclaimer says:
    @Harry Baldwin
    I'm fascinated by the fact that Jordan Peterson has caused Vox Day to to go completely off the rails. I don't get it, honestly. Can't a man have many things to say that you find interesting and worthwhile, and others you disagree with without it causing you to condemn him unreservedly?

    This used to bother me about the late Lawrence Auster, whom I considered brilliant. He would condemn someone like Matk Steyn as completely useless because while he opened many people's eyes to the dangers of Muslim immigration, he didn't come out and demand that it be ended. (Subsequently, Steyn more or less has done so.) But if Mark Steyn is performing an enormous service in an important area, why is it necessary to condemn him because he doesn't go quite as far rhetorically as you would? It's not as if Steyn is setting policy, after all. He's expressing opinions that may influence people to question the reigning narrative, and the result of that may change policy.

    I think the problem is that Peterson isn’t just trying to be a public figure; he’s trying to create a cult. Vox has looked him over and thinks Peterson is intellectually dishonest and shady, and though haven’t done the research–I have zero patience for lecturing videos–I suspect Vox is correct.

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  112. Good analysis.

    The hysterical reactions from left and right to Peterson, especially from the right, has been intriguing.

    It would be valuable were you to suggest why the e-merchant right have made a special effort to align themselves in denouncing Peterson. Perhaps it’s for the same reasons you suggest above?

    Maybe they are just defending their own territory, projecting their own motivations and chicanery onto Peterson?

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  113. Steve, if you watch anything make sure it’s not the Vice interview with the one and only Jay Kaspian Kang. Misleading editing, inane questions, stupid looking set- speaking of stupid, that dolt Kang comes across as an intellectual featherweight. Way to smash a stereotype there Jay!

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    • Replies: @Anon
    Gosh, Kang does come across as an idiot in that interview. I like him as a writer. I guess most writers should stick to the printed page.
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  114. Peterson self identifies as a British Classical Liberal.

    I’ve enjoyed about fifteen hours of Peterson. His first three hour podcast with Joe Rogan got the attention of a great many educated young people and affected them profoundly. Rogan said it was the most important podcast he had done, and he’s done over a thousand. Peterson changed Rogan’s perception of many things on the spot.

    That said, I recently watched a few minutes with him on a Maher panel, and it was nauseating. He has a terrible need to bring the prog into the light, and he appeased their worst understandings of flyover country so that they may see him as kin. Brutal.

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  115. map says:
    @Harry Baldwin
    I'm fascinated by the fact that Jordan Peterson has caused Vox Day to to go completely off the rails. I don't get it, honestly. Can't a man have many things to say that you find interesting and worthwhile, and others you disagree with without it causing you to condemn him unreservedly?

    This used to bother me about the late Lawrence Auster, whom I considered brilliant. He would condemn someone like Matk Steyn as completely useless because while he opened many people's eyes to the dangers of Muslim immigration, he didn't come out and demand that it be ended. (Subsequently, Steyn more or less has done so.) But if Mark Steyn is performing an enormous service in an important area, why is it necessary to condemn him because he doesn't go quite as far rhetorically as you would? It's not as if Steyn is setting policy, after all. He's expressing opinions that may influence people to question the reigning narrative, and the result of that may change policy.

    Vox Day has done a very good job deconstructing Jordan Peterson and concluding that ultimately what Jordanetics advocates is evil.

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  116. @Harry Baldwin
    I'm fascinated by the fact that Jordan Peterson has caused Vox Day to to go completely off the rails. I don't get it, honestly. Can't a man have many things to say that you find interesting and worthwhile, and others you disagree with without it causing you to condemn him unreservedly?

    This used to bother me about the late Lawrence Auster, whom I considered brilliant. He would condemn someone like Matk Steyn as completely useless because while he opened many people's eyes to the dangers of Muslim immigration, he didn't come out and demand that it be ended. (Subsequently, Steyn more or less has done so.) But if Mark Steyn is performing an enormous service in an important area, why is it necessary to condemn him because he doesn't go quite as far rhetorically as you would? It's not as if Steyn is setting policy, after all. He's expressing opinions that may influence people to question the reigning narrative, and the result of that may change policy.

    I had been wondering how Peterson could produce some of the stupid and obviously false statements he had made about history, such as medieval people not being familiar with rhetoric, or the ancients not knowing how to think empirically. But apparently he really is that ignorant, because he’s never actually read most of the classics, he has only read about them, third- or even fourth-hand.

    Vox Day, “An Eminent Person” 5/13/2018

    The Aeneid: Pros – new translation is pretty good. Cons – I’ve never actually been able to finish it.

    “Voxiversity III Possibilities” 1/28/2009

    –Now, maybe I’m taking the latter out of context; but for someone who boasts of his classical learning and claims Aristotelianism as his philosophical foundation, Vox really seems to suffer a paucity of first-hand contact with the classics himself. Based upon various comments about reading at the gym, it would appear he gets most of his “Aristotle” through Umberto Eco, since the only Aristotelian texts he ever talks of reading are the Rhetoric (which he uses to justify suckerpunches like “call ‘em a p*d*”) or the Sophistical Refutations, a minor appendix to the Organon.

    The sole mention of the Organon at Vox Popoli indeed is merely used pretentiously to introduce the fact he is reading the informal Sophistical Refutations; the word “Nicomachean” returns nothing at all. Nor for that matter do Neo-Thomists Gilson or Maritain.

    Peterson clearly is better read in Late Romantic novels and Existentialism. That might be regrettable from a classical perspective but it hasn’t kept him from deeply engaging with the Bible. Vox meanwhile dismisses Plato as a fraud and commits other sub-Ayn Randian atrocities against philosophy which make him risible as an intellectual champion of tradition outside Tolkien.

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  117. danand says:
    @Warner
    Steve, you are correct in everything you analyze regarding Jordan Peterson. But I would also recommend biting the bullet and setting aside 3 or 4 hours, maybe over a couple days to watch some videos. If you want recommendations, let me know. I'm leading a JP discussion group in NYC. We watch 5-20 minute clips and discuss. The group has grown 5x since we added his videos.

    My recommendation would be to watch the older vids; lectures from his classes, prior to his post “courtesy titles” fame. In general they are both entertaining & informative. His Dwayne Schneider (Pat Harrington, Jr.) look in these early vids seems more genuine Jordan than his current look; which he almost had to adopt given his new influence/audience. He hasn’t quite yet mastered that “wise old sage” look that I think he’s after?
    Viewing a few of his more recent, exhausting, diatribes; I’m left with no doubt he is of superior intellect and is passionate about his message. He may be another flash in the pan, having no affect other than to torpedo his own career; but he’s worth a look.

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  118. Hubbub says:
    @Lot
    The safest policy to to recognize our nation's abolition of titles of nobility, and just call him Citizen Clark, Comrade Ken, or dude.

    Back in my British Lit days, I was taught (by teachers and printed material) to refer to authors with titles, especially Lords, in the following way:

    Alfred, Lord Tennyson

    for example.

    I would suppose that Kenneth Clark would in a similar vein, be referenced as

    Kenneth, Lord Clark

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    • Replies: @Lot
    I've seen Alfred, Lord Tennyson, but never George, Lord Byron.

    After the abolition of the French monarchy, Louis XVI became Citizen Louis Capet, after his patrilineal ancestor Hugh Capet. To suck up to the liberals, his cousin the Duke of Orleans named himself Louis Equality, though he was also a patrilineal descendant if Hugh Capet.
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  119. SnakeEyes says:

    Steve: Yang’s article mentions the crowdsourcing platform Patreon. Have you considered this in lieu of your tri-annual fundraising appeals?

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  120. Twinkie says:
    @27 year old
    Jordan Peterson seems like a gateway drug to me. Peterson-ism is not great but it beats the hell out of bugman-ism and nihilism as far as I can tell.

    And you could say he is better for White young men than a lot of "hardcore alt right". "Clean up your room" is much more useful advice than "wake up normies to the JQ!!" He's done a hell of a lot more for lost Whites than say Paul Nehlen.

    I also think the fixation with him being on some UN panel is way off. Sorry he's not a loser shitposting in his pajamas all the time and people out in the real world respect him and value his input? If you want to win, you need people like this.

    I'm curious to see where he goes and how this plays out.

    And you could say he is better for White young men than a lot of “hardcore alt right”. “Clean up your room” is much more useful advice than “wake up normies to the JQ!!” He’s done a hell of a lot more for lost Whites than say Paul Nehlen.

    The problem with many ideologues – be they Randians, traditional conservatives, alt-right, white nationalists, whatever – is that they see their ideas as ends in themselves. In reality, PEOPLE are the ends, or more accurately the betterment of people should be the ends. Ideas are good to the extent their adoption helps people achieve their higher aims in life, both material and transcendental.

    The part of the interview I found notable was this:

    The local librarian, who was married to the head of the NDP, Canada’s social-democratic party, identified Peterson as a young man of promise and gave him a schooling in the great books. He spent his youth as a committed socialist before growing disillusioned with the character of his fellow travelers, whom he came to regard as motivated by resentment. At the same time, he met some conservative small-business owners who earned his grudging admiration. “It produced a fair bit of cognitive dissonance for me,” he says. “Because ostensibly, I didn’t admire the conservative ethos. But I certainly admired the people.”

    At the end of the day, if you want to convince others and set them on the right path, you have to be a model, an admirable model at that. The reason conservatism went badly wrong in the last 30 years was that it became dominated by those who gave intellectual license to plunder the commonwealth. Its leaders were corrupted by wealth and status (and briefly, power) rather than being paragons of virtue. How many conservative thought leaders had their own house in order?

    I see something similar in the nascent, so-called, alt-right movement, which is currently powered by resentment (understandable resentment, but still resentment). A politics of resentment is initially potent, but is bound to end in tears for all involved, because it is ultimately destructive (and frequently self-destructive) rather than constructive.

    What we need today are leaders of a political movement who are self-sacrificing and noble, courageous people who do not shy away from a fight that needs to be fought, but who are also capable of rallying people to build something better and more morally uplifting for their own individual selves and for the society at large.

    At the end of the day, winning politics – and winning political ideas – in the long run is one which helps a broad segment of the population and enhances social cohesion and consensus. That might not be an initially appealing message for angry young women (be they white or something else), but it is what is needed.

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    • Agree: danand, Luke Lea, AaronB
    • Disagree: Highlander
    • Replies: @BB753
    "What we need today are leaders of a political movement who are self-sacrificing and noble, courageous people who do not shy away from a fight that needs to be fought, but who are also capable of rallying people to build something better and more morally uplifting for their own individual selves and for the society at large."

    If only Steve Sailer had people skills..
    , @Peter Johnson
    Interesting comment.

    How about the "HBD movement" by which I mean social scientists, genetic scientists, interested non-specialists, etc. who can see the evidence for human biodiversity and fight against the mainstream media's censorship and propaganda campaign against HBD realities. Does that work as a potentially successful movement as you have outlined the requirements for such? It takes away the alt-right resentment but has a lot of the same content.
    , @Svigor

    I see something similar in the nascent, so-called, alt-right movement, which is currently powered by resentment (understandable resentment, but still resentment). A politics of resentment is initially potent, but is bound to end in tears for all involved, because it is ultimately destructive (and frequently self-destructive) rather than constructive.
     
    It's working for the Jews, no?
    , @Seth Largo
    Here here.
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  121. Anonymous[167] • Disclaimer says:

    “In my continuing attempt to cover the Jordan Peterson Phenomenon without sitting through dozens of hours of videos”

    You know, he wrote a book. How about reading that? It seems to encapsulate his greatest hits.

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  122. Roger says: • Website
    @Harry Baldwin
    I'm fascinated by the fact that Jordan Peterson has caused Vox Day to to go completely off the rails. I don't get it, honestly. Can't a man have many things to say that you find interesting and worthwhile, and others you disagree with without it causing you to condemn him unreservedly?

    This used to bother me about the late Lawrence Auster, whom I considered brilliant. He would condemn someone like Matk Steyn as completely useless because while he opened many people's eyes to the dangers of Muslim immigration, he didn't come out and demand that it be ended. (Subsequently, Steyn more or less has done so.) But if Mark Steyn is performing an enormous service in an important area, why is it necessary to condemn him because he doesn't go quite as far rhetorically as you would? It's not as if Steyn is setting policy, after all. He's expressing opinions that may influence people to question the reigning narrative, and the result of that may change policy.

    Steve and others say that Peterson is “a high-brow traditionalist pro-Western civilization intellectual.”

    Vox Day says the opposite, more or less.

    http://voxday.blogspot.com/2018/05/darkstream-jordan-peterson-is-globalist.html

    http://voxday.blogspot.com/2018/05/the-dog-whistler.html

    I am still trying to figure it out. I want to give Peterson credit for refusing to use weird pronouns, but that was the position of 99% of the population until a couple of years ago. That could either show that he is principled, or that he is just slow to adapt.

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  123. J.Ross says: • Website
    @Chief Seattle
    OT: Someone else is brave enough to write about the KKKrazy Glue holding together the Democratic party and how it's not enough:

    It would appear that the "emerging Democratic majority" requires anti-white identity politics as its midwife.

    http://theweek.com/articles/772590/white-minority-illusion

    Nice find.
    (By the way, Steve, assuming I’m not just thrown out, posting a moderation policy would probably help adherence, if adherence to that policy is a goal.)

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    • Replies: @Yngvar
    Whim. It says so right there.
    , @Steve Sailer
    Why don't you ask other commenters what works for them?
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  124. Anonymous[657] • Disclaimer says:

    O.T.

    Israeli security forces gunned down and killed over 50 Palestinian protesters yesterday.

    It’s always a very big deal when a ‘western democracy’ guns down unarmed civilians.
    Usually provokes a great big hoo-haa, ritual announcements of condemnation by the UN, Council of Europe, the ‘liberal’ media etc etc – all keen to sound off, bang the table and virtue signal.

    Putting all that aside, compared contrast to that so-called ‘migrant’ crisis plaguing Europe with aggressive, hostile, boat-borne invaders imposing their unwanted unwelcome colonisation of Europe.

    Even the merest hint of peacefully towing back invader boats to whence they came is greeted with histrionics and outrage by the usual (Economist) quarters.

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  125. For a right-wing liberal Peterson has very little to say on economics. In the 1980s, that was pretty much all Commonwealth right-wing liberals talked about -the evils of unions and protectionism and how Thatcher, Keating, etc were rescuing us from the cosy entropy of the Keynesian 50s and 60s.

    This suggests that economic neo-liberalism has pretty much ground to a halt and many people on the liberal right are refocusing on leftist overreach in the cultural sphere. For a while now, economic socialists have been going on about about identity politics and economic neoliberalism feed off each other, and now neoliberalism has ground to a halt (follwoing the 2008 recession) the libertarian types are setting their sights on the cultural Marxists. As shown by their modest You Tube ratings, the alt right are basically just bemused spectators in this battle. However many on the left see pro- free-speech, right-wing liberals like Peterson as dangerous enablers for the nationalist alt right.

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    • Agree: Seamus Padraig
    • Replies: @Simon in London
    " pro- free-speech, right-wing liberals like Peterson as dangerous enablers for the nationalist alt right."

    But Peterson isn't right-wing, he doesn't consider himself right wing, he's just anti-SJW. Pretty much the same zone as Dave Rubin, for instance. He is not opposed to mass developing-world immigration into the West.

    I agree the Alt-Right has modest Youtube ratings, but 'Libertarian Nationalists' like Lauren Southern and Paul Joseph Watson - essentially pro free speech, right wing liberals who do oppose mass immigration (and in some cases will talk to the moderate end of the Alt Right) - have substantial ratings. And the Control-Left has an (I think) reasonable fear that Peterson can be a conveyor belt to the Libertarian Nationalists.
    , @DFH

    As shown by their modest You Tube ratings, the alt right are basically just bemused spectators in this battle
     
    Their importance in creating (for want of a better word) memes that change the dialogue is much greater than the youtube views (probably because the viewership is more intelligent/active)
    , @unpc downunder
    Just for clarity, I use the Auster/Richardson phrase "right-wing liberal" to define someone who is on the right side of the current liberal system. I don't mean "right-wing" in the sense of being outside the liberal system.

    A right-wing liberal supports liberal economics (free trade, low taxes etc) free speech and promotion by merit and opposes all forms of political collectivism apart from civic nationalism. In contrast to left-wing liberals, right-wing liberals tend to believe in individual self-reliance and don't think that economically struggling groups (blacks, poor whites, etc) should receive a big leg up from the system.

    You're probably right that the more intelligent and moderate leftists tends to see Peterson as a gateway to the popular libertarian nationalists, rather than the hard core alt-righters. However, many of the more histrionic leftists don't see these divisions between various right-wing groups. Hence, even someone like Rubin is seen as a potential alt right enabler since he is willing to have civil discussions with people further to his right.

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  126. @unpc downunder
    For a right-wing liberal Peterson has very little to say on economics. In the 1980s, that was pretty much all Commonwealth right-wing liberals talked about -the evils of unions and protectionism and how Thatcher, Keating, etc were rescuing us from the cosy entropy of the Keynesian 50s and 60s.

    This suggests that economic neo-liberalism has pretty much ground to a halt and many people on the liberal right are refocusing on leftist overreach in the cultural sphere. For a while now, economic socialists have been going on about about identity politics and economic neoliberalism feed off each other, and now neoliberalism has ground to a halt (follwoing the 2008 recession) the libertarian types are setting their sights on the cultural Marxists. As shown by their modest You Tube ratings, the alt right are basically just bemused spectators in this battle. However many on the left see pro- free-speech, right-wing liberals like Peterson as dangerous enablers for the nationalist alt right.

    ” pro- free-speech, right-wing liberals like Peterson as dangerous enablers for the nationalist alt right.”

    But Peterson isn’t right-wing, he doesn’t consider himself right wing, he’s just anti-SJW. Pretty much the same zone as Dave Rubin, for instance. He is not opposed to mass developing-world immigration into the West.

    I agree the Alt-Right has modest Youtube ratings, but ‘Libertarian Nationalists’ like Lauren Southern and Paul Joseph Watson – essentially pro free speech, right wing liberals who do oppose mass immigration (and in some cases will talk to the moderate end of the Alt Right) – have substantial ratings. And the Control-Left has an (I think) reasonable fear that Peterson can be a conveyor belt to the Libertarian Nationalists.

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    • Replies: @BenKenobi

    I agree the Alt-Right has modest Youtube ratings
     
    Deplatforming will do that.

    Back to JP: it seems that there is a very distinct fear among the blue check-mark crowd that cleaning one's room will soon accelerate to cleaning one's nation.
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  127. DFH says:
    @unpc downunder
    For a right-wing liberal Peterson has very little to say on economics. In the 1980s, that was pretty much all Commonwealth right-wing liberals talked about -the evils of unions and protectionism and how Thatcher, Keating, etc were rescuing us from the cosy entropy of the Keynesian 50s and 60s.

    This suggests that economic neo-liberalism has pretty much ground to a halt and many people on the liberal right are refocusing on leftist overreach in the cultural sphere. For a while now, economic socialists have been going on about about identity politics and economic neoliberalism feed off each other, and now neoliberalism has ground to a halt (follwoing the 2008 recession) the libertarian types are setting their sights on the cultural Marxists. As shown by their modest You Tube ratings, the alt right are basically just bemused spectators in this battle. However many on the left see pro- free-speech, right-wing liberals like Peterson as dangerous enablers for the nationalist alt right.

    As shown by their modest You Tube ratings, the alt right are basically just bemused spectators in this battle

    Their importance in creating (for want of a better word) memes that change the dialogue is much greater than the youtube views (probably because the viewership is more intelligent/active)

    Read More
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  128. Chet says:
    @Harry Baldwin
    I'm fascinated by the fact that Jordan Peterson has caused Vox Day to to go completely off the rails. I don't get it, honestly. Can't a man have many things to say that you find interesting and worthwhile, and others you disagree with without it causing you to condemn him unreservedly?

    This used to bother me about the late Lawrence Auster, whom I considered brilliant. He would condemn someone like Matk Steyn as completely useless because while he opened many people's eyes to the dangers of Muslim immigration, he didn't come out and demand that it be ended. (Subsequently, Steyn more or less has done so.) But if Mark Steyn is performing an enormous service in an important area, why is it necessary to condemn him because he doesn't go quite as far rhetorically as you would? It's not as if Steyn is setting policy, after all. He's expressing opinions that may influence people to question the reigning narrative, and the result of that may change policy.

    A better characterization is that Vox Day smelled a fraud and publicly analyzed his subject until he discovered the nature and basis of the fraud.

    I watched JP lectures on youtube and listened so some of his latest book. Then I read or watched VD’s analysis. I conclude that JP is a fraud and his advice and opinions range from useless to poisonous. As far as his scholarship, he does a fair amount of name-dropping in his work, but I don’t trust his interpretations and conclusions.

    Keep in mind that JP wants to be a guru. If you find out that a guru is a fraud, doesn’t that taint and undermine everything he has done and continues to do as a guru?

    I think Steve’s summary of JP is pretty far from the mark, but then JP is a pretty clever fellow who has stimulated an astonishing diversity of opinions about what JP actually means and what JP is actually about.

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    • Replies: @Lucius Somesuch
    A better analysis still would be that somebody whispered in Vox Day's ear that Peterson had been associated with the Podesta group, which for Vox and his readers is tantamount (fairly or not) to proof of his being a child molester, and then built around this piece of information a series of ad hominem rants, with the usual marketing pleas to keep watching this space, and let it all play out as if jolly old Vox, always full of intellectual curiosity, had just ventured down the Peterson rabbithole on a lark, totally unaware of what he would "find."

    Vox Day wants to be--indeed, is, I should say-- a guru. His wholesome advice is to call someone a "p*d*phile" whenever they call you a "racist" ("So what?" he explains. "You're not a racist." I, for one, would LIKE to be a racist, thank you very much!). His opinions include that Socrates and Plato were frauds.

    He also likes to tease that he is in fact the "Chuck Tingle" who authored Space Raptor, Butt Invasion. Funny little booklet--but there really is in-out, in-out gay bestial dino sex in that. And Tingle now has dozens of original titles on amazon. Does Vox make his living off of writing dino smut? He seems at least to enjoy the implication. Would that make him some sort of "fraud"?
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  129. LondonBob says:

    I have only ever come across him because I watched his highly entertaining demolition of Cathy Newman when she interviewed him. Well worth watching if you haven’t. Anyone who demolishes the left wing world view so succinctly is an asset. I also read a review of his most recent book he wrote that intrigued me and gave a good impression.

    Good luck him, clearly many people don’t seem to get any decent instruction on life. God knows how remorlessly white people are attacked and demonised, a bit of self respect would go a long way.

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    • Replies: @jim jones
    The Cathy Newman interview has ten million views on Youtube, my feeling is that VD is being eaten up with envy.
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  130. LondonBob says:
    @27 year old
    Jordan Peterson seems like a gateway drug to me. Peterson-ism is not great but it beats the hell out of bugman-ism and nihilism as far as I can tell.

    And you could say he is better for White young men than a lot of "hardcore alt right". "Clean up your room" is much more useful advice than "wake up normies to the JQ!!" He's done a hell of a lot more for lost Whites than say Paul Nehlen.

    I also think the fixation with him being on some UN panel is way off. Sorry he's not a loser shitposting in his pajamas all the time and people out in the real world respect him and value his input? If you want to win, you need people like this.

    I'm curious to see where he goes and how this plays out.

    With Paul Ryan retiring Nehlen would have a chance of taking his seat, foolish on his part.

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  131. @AnotherDad

    But I would also recommend biting the bullet and setting aside 3 or 4 hours, maybe over a couple days to watch some videos. If you want recommendations, let me know.
     
    Just give them to us.

    I'm with Steve, i find the video thing a low flow information spigot. I do watch a few videos in order to fix stuff where the visual information matters--ex. here's how to reattach my sink to a granite countertop; ok great, now i can do it. But where it doesn't matter i can read much, much faster.

    You're a Jordan Peterson guy--great. Give us the top 3-5 you'd recommend. I'm an old dude a bit north of Steve's age, like several regulars here. I probably won't become a Peterson regular regardless. But my son's a young guy ... but i'd want to see value before telling him to go watch Peterson.

    I have the same opinion as you about YouTube videos having a lower bandwidth than text – I usually speed up talking head videos to 150-200%, and I’m still not satisfied that it’s an effective way of taking in information. Also, somebody putting up an hour-long video is effectively saying that he’s worth an hour of your time, an immodest presumption for an amateur self-publisher.

    Nevertheless, the video that got me started on Jordan Peterson was this feature-film length conversation he had with Camille Paglia. I found myself pausing the video to stop and think, so for me at least it had a high informational bandwidth. Then again, one of the slogans people are trying to get to stick to Peterson is that he’s a stupid person’s idea of a smart person, and I might be one of those stupid people.

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  132. NickG says:

    You’ve pretty much nailed it with your take on Peterson Steve.

    Much of the confusion over Peterson seems to come from the interaction of three factors. Is Peterson a warrior against political correctness or a self-help guru for young men or a high-brow traditionalist pro-Western civilization intellectual in the mode of, say, Lord Kenneth Clark, star of the Civilization art history series in the late 1960s that pretty much invented the modern TV documentary?

    All of the above. Peterson speaks with commitment and passion – and to borrow from Taleb ‘skin in the game’ – and talks much sense, he is a quick thinker and annoys all the correct people. Love him to bits!

    Sure, to many of us much of what he says is obvious to the point of triteness.

    He is careful to eschew identity politics, I understand that he has to do this, but think he is wrong on it. Personally I feel that the only way to save the West – Western Europe, the US and Canada, and Australasia – or more specifically the de-facto ethnic cleansing of the European peoples via demographic assault and a culture that persuades many of our best women not to breed, is a strong ethno-nationalist kick back. Sure this will cause conflict, but that’s clearly coming anyway.

    I do think he is overdoing it a bit and could well crash and burn, but then he thinks this himself.

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    • Replies: @J.Ross

    Peterson speaks with commitment and passion – and to borrow from Taleb ‘skin in the game’ – and talks much sense
     
    I'm not understanding your application of this Talebian concept. Peterson had one textbook illustration of the simplest sort of skin in the game years ago. Real skin in the game is not simply losing something (that happens all the time to people who are wrong or by chance) but intelligently and ethically risking it and getting proven right. But this is exactly what Peterson doesn't do, this is a guy who stuck his neck out once and is now retired, possibly as a result of having lost his position.
    You do lift, of course?
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  133. Dr. Doom says:

    Wesley Yang finds the prospect of White Racial Consciousness disturbing. Shut up, Wesley.

    If you want to find Tibet, take a left turn at the Congo and follow the bongos.

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  134. J.Ross says: • Website

    Did my money not go through last month? Are you still sick?

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  135. @Harry Baldwin
    I'm fascinated by the fact that Jordan Peterson has caused Vox Day to to go completely off the rails. I don't get it, honestly. Can't a man have many things to say that you find interesting and worthwhile, and others you disagree with without it causing you to condemn him unreservedly?

    This used to bother me about the late Lawrence Auster, whom I considered brilliant. He would condemn someone like Matk Steyn as completely useless because while he opened many people's eyes to the dangers of Muslim immigration, he didn't come out and demand that it be ended. (Subsequently, Steyn more or less has done so.) But if Mark Steyn is performing an enormous service in an important area, why is it necessary to condemn him because he doesn't go quite as far rhetorically as you would? It's not as if Steyn is setting policy, after all. He's expressing opinions that may influence people to question the reigning narrative, and the result of that may change policy.

    You are right that Poz Day has lost his mind about this. Jealousy? Did JP bag Space Cunny?

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  136. roo_ster says:
    @Harry Baldwin
    I'm fascinated by the fact that Jordan Peterson has caused Vox Day to to go completely off the rails. I don't get it, honestly. Can't a man have many things to say that you find interesting and worthwhile, and others you disagree with without it causing you to condemn him unreservedly?

    This used to bother me about the late Lawrence Auster, whom I considered brilliant. He would condemn someone like Matk Steyn as completely useless because while he opened many people's eyes to the dangers of Muslim immigration, he didn't come out and demand that it be ended. (Subsequently, Steyn more or less has done so.) But if Mark Steyn is performing an enormous service in an important area, why is it necessary to condemn him because he doesn't go quite as far rhetorically as you would? It's not as if Steyn is setting policy, after all. He's expressing opinions that may influence people to question the reigning narrative, and the result of that may change policy.

    Vox day bas correctly analyzed peterson. It was simply a mater of reading what peterson wrote and not some big mystery. But too many folks are too lazy to rtfm.

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  137. @JohnnyD
    In my opinion, Peterson isn't all that reactionary. He's basically a liberal stuck in the early 1990's, when Canada was still a somewhat serious country.

    You wrote: “…. when Canada was still a somewhat serious country”. Is the US of A a serious country? I’d say it is. It’s a serious country in the same way a drunk waving a loaded firearm around is a serious situation.

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  138. Yak-15 says:
    @The Z Blog
    A few months ago I compared him to Stephen Covey: http://thezman.com/wordpress/?p=12851

    I'm agnostic on these guys. Maybe there is some utility in their very mild push back against the prevailing orthodoxy. They tend to come and go, so there is a chance they are just useful distractions for the people steamrolling the culture. Sort of like the opponent for a barnstorming professional team.

    His responses to the JQ stuff have been pointless and wacky, so I suspect he is not as clever as he lets on. He would have been wise to avoid the topic entirely. Staying in your lane is how you stay a guru.

    Peterson roughly fits your analogy of libertarians and free-market advocates to socialists and communists during the Cold War era. Peterson is systematically attacking many aspects of pc, social Marxist progressivism with logic and reason. He is doing this under a difficult to refute, moralist guise that employs aspects of psychology, philosophy and the classics of western canon. Peterson, though not as intellectually capable, mirrors Milton Friedman’s ability to deconstruct his opponents in public debates and demonlish tbeir arguments piecemeal.

    Most importantly, he appeals to young men and urges them to embrace their masculinity and improve their lives. Sure, he is not advocating for some of things you would prefer, but he is ripping apart our enemies and building up people to accept some of the basic premises of Paleoconservatism. This is monumentally important as there is no similar public voice that can bring impressionable young men to a political and philosophical position even close to our side.

    How can you not see his utility? Perhaps because your youth was not characterized by the complete moral, educational, religious and social grip that the Cathedral has on the major institutions today. As it stands now, nearly every adult in authority through every imaginable part of our children’s upbringing acts as a reinforcement mechanism of post-rational progressivism.

    Our young men (and some women) of today, like myself in the late 90s/early 2000s, intuitively understand that their minds are being poisoned. But they lack the intellectual tools to begin to understand exactly what is occurring and how to fight back. Peterson is the first real educational figure that supplies them with any semblance of an alternative view point that is not the mo-mo noise of mainstream conservatism.

    Peterson is a low-dose purple pill that spurs the kids to start looking for the stronger stuff.

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  139. vinteuil says:
    @Harry Baldwin
    I'm fascinated by the fact that Jordan Peterson has caused Vox Day to to go completely off the rails. I don't get it, honestly. Can't a man have many things to say that you find interesting and worthwhile, and others you disagree with without it causing you to condemn him unreservedly?

    This used to bother me about the late Lawrence Auster, whom I considered brilliant. He would condemn someone like Matk Steyn as completely useless because while he opened many people's eyes to the dangers of Muslim immigration, he didn't come out and demand that it be ended. (Subsequently, Steyn more or less has done so.) But if Mark Steyn is performing an enormous service in an important area, why is it necessary to condemn him because he doesn't go quite as far rhetorically as you would? It's not as if Steyn is setting policy, after all. He's expressing opinions that may influence people to question the reigning narrative, and the result of that may change policy.

    The Vox Day vs. Jordan Peterson/Lawrence Auster vs. Mark Steyn thing is a sufficiently common phenomenon that it’s got a name: “the narcissism of small differences.”

    Back in the day, I was thoroughly dismayed by Auster’s constant attacks on Steyn, which seemed to surpass in vitriol anything he ever said about genuinely bad actors like, say, David Frum. And Beale’s scorched earth tactics against Peterson are, if anything, still more “off the rails” – as you aptly put it.

    The word “narcissism” is particularly apropos in Beale’s case – is there anybody on the internet so quick to toot his own horn – and to toot is so loudly?

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    • Agree: BB753, Harry Baldwin
    • Disagree: roo_ster
    • Replies: @DCThrowback
    it really is weird. i think VD is a very good ideas man and enjoy reading his thoughts on just about every topic (save sci-fi), but it seems like 15+ posts on JP in the last 3 days means jp is in his head like a blood clot.

    narcissism of small differences is a great phrase though, thanks for that.
    , @DFH

    The word “narcissism” is particularly apropos in Beale’s case – is there anybody on the internet so quick to toot his own horn – and to toot is so loudly?
     
    JBP himself can be rather grandiose in his incoherent rambling

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fInko6WL9No

    , @DFH

    The word “narcissism” is particularly apropos in Beale’s case – is there anybody on the internet so quick to toot his own horn – and to toot is so loudly?
     
    JBP himself can be rather grandiose in his incoherent rambling

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fInko6WL9No
    , @AndrewR
    VD is a joke. I stumbled on his blog one time. I saw he was making a big deal of his so-called American Indian heritage for some reason, so I mocked him by calling him Big Chief Blogging Eagle. Then he responded by saying "look how racist these leftist SJWs are" even though I had said nothing that could be construed as leftist. All I had done was mock him, which in his mind automatically makes me an "SJW."
    , @roo_ster
    I agree in your description of VD's personality, yet you do not address any of the arguments he has made. Weak sauce, that.

    And the differences between VD and JP are not small. They are at the foundations of their respective philosophies. Understanding this would require, again, reading what they have written.

    JP deserves every slap VD has sent his way.
    , @The preferred nomenclature is...
    The Market Ticker dude, Karl Denninger is. I swear that mofo walks on water if you were to listen to him.
    , @Simon in London
    "Back in the day, I was thoroughly dismayed by Auster’s constant attacks on Steyn, which seemed to surpass in vitriol anything he ever said about genuinely bad actors like, say, David Frum."

    Well, there is an obvious difference between the two.

    I recall Auster was polite to me until he PM'd me to ask if I was Jewish, and I said I wasn't. After that he soon found reason to attack me.
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  140. Yak-15 says:
    @27 year old
    Jordan Peterson seems like a gateway drug to me. Peterson-ism is not great but it beats the hell out of bugman-ism and nihilism as far as I can tell.

    And you could say he is better for White young men than a lot of "hardcore alt right". "Clean up your room" is much more useful advice than "wake up normies to the JQ!!" He's done a hell of a lot more for lost Whites than say Paul Nehlen.

    I also think the fixation with him being on some UN panel is way off. Sorry he's not a loser shitposting in his pajamas all the time and people out in the real world respect him and value his input? If you want to win, you need people like this.

    I'm curious to see where he goes and how this plays out.

    “If you want to win, you need people like this.”

    This is important. The best criticism on the alt-right is that they are a bunch of losers.

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  141. DCThrowback says: • Website
    @vinteuil
    The Vox Day vs. Jordan Peterson/Lawrence Auster vs. Mark Steyn thing is a sufficiently common phenomenon that it's got a name: "the narcissism of small differences."

    Back in the day, I was thoroughly dismayed by Auster's constant attacks on Steyn, which seemed to surpass in vitriol anything he ever said about genuinely bad actors like, say, David Frum. And Beale's scorched earth tactics against Peterson are, if anything, still more "off the rails" - as you aptly put it.

    The word "narcissism" is particularly apropos in Beale's case - is there anybody on the internet so quick to toot his own horn - and to toot is so loudly?

    it really is weird. i think VD is a very good ideas man and enjoy reading his thoughts on just about every topic (save sci-fi), but it seems like 15+ posts on JP in the last 3 days means jp is in his head like a blood clot.

    narcissism of small differences is a great phrase though, thanks for that.

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    • Replies: @L Woods
    He’s a “gamma” blowhard, the likes of which the alt right has no shortage
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  142. @Harry Baldwin
    I'm fascinated by the fact that Jordan Peterson has caused Vox Day to to go completely off the rails. I don't get it, honestly. Can't a man have many things to say that you find interesting and worthwhile, and others you disagree with without it causing you to condemn him unreservedly?

    This used to bother me about the late Lawrence Auster, whom I considered brilliant. He would condemn someone like Matk Steyn as completely useless because while he opened many people's eyes to the dangers of Muslim immigration, he didn't come out and demand that it be ended. (Subsequently, Steyn more or less has done so.) But if Mark Steyn is performing an enormous service in an important area, why is it necessary to condemn him because he doesn't go quite as far rhetorically as you would? It's not as if Steyn is setting policy, after all. He's expressing opinions that may influence people to question the reigning narrative, and the result of that may change policy.

    I like Vox, but his reaction to Peterson is a bit cringey, he seems to be disagreeing with him on a different plane than Peterson intends to operate. He’s a shrink, not an Aristotelian philosopher – and he never claims to be. Vox’s reaction to Peterson’s sympathizers is also striking in that it feels unhinged.

    I’m not a Peterson fanboy by any stretch, but he does have something to say. The mainstream’s reaction to him is also telling, I think largely for the reason Steve mentions: he gives whitey hope.

    I also find the videos tedious, so I’m hoping to glean something from writings.

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  143. DFH says:
    @vinteuil
    The Vox Day vs. Jordan Peterson/Lawrence Auster vs. Mark Steyn thing is a sufficiently common phenomenon that it's got a name: "the narcissism of small differences."

    Back in the day, I was thoroughly dismayed by Auster's constant attacks on Steyn, which seemed to surpass in vitriol anything he ever said about genuinely bad actors like, say, David Frum. And Beale's scorched earth tactics against Peterson are, if anything, still more "off the rails" - as you aptly put it.

    The word "narcissism" is particularly apropos in Beale's case - is there anybody on the internet so quick to toot his own horn - and to toot is so loudly?

    The word “narcissism” is particularly apropos in Beale’s case – is there anybody on the internet so quick to toot his own horn – and to toot is so loudly?

    JBP himself can be rather grandiose in his incoherent rambling

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  144. DFH says:
    @vinteuil
    The Vox Day vs. Jordan Peterson/Lawrence Auster vs. Mark Steyn thing is a sufficiently common phenomenon that it's got a name: "the narcissism of small differences."

    Back in the day, I was thoroughly dismayed by Auster's constant attacks on Steyn, which seemed to surpass in vitriol anything he ever said about genuinely bad actors like, say, David Frum. And Beale's scorched earth tactics against Peterson are, if anything, still more "off the rails" - as you aptly put it.

    The word "narcissism" is particularly apropos in Beale's case - is there anybody on the internet so quick to toot his own horn - and to toot is so loudly?

    The word “narcissism” is particularly apropos in Beale’s case – is there anybody on the internet so quick to toot his own horn – and to toot is so loudly?

    JBP himself can be rather grandiose in his incoherent rambling

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  145. BB753 says:
    @Twinkie

    And you could say he is better for White young men than a lot of “hardcore alt right”. “Clean up your room” is much more useful advice than “wake up normies to the JQ!!” He’s done a hell of a lot more for lost Whites than say Paul Nehlen.
     
    The problem with many ideologues - be they Randians, traditional conservatives, alt-right, white nationalists, whatever - is that they see their ideas as ends in themselves. In reality, PEOPLE are the ends, or more accurately the betterment of people should be the ends. Ideas are good to the extent their adoption helps people achieve their higher aims in life, both material and transcendental.

    The part of the interview I found notable was this:

    The local librarian, who was married to the head of the NDP, Canada’s social-democratic party, identified Peterson as a young man of promise and gave him a schooling in the great books. He spent his youth as a committed socialist before growing disillusioned with the character of his fellow travelers, whom he came to regard as motivated by resentment. At the same time, he met some conservative small-business owners who earned his grudging admiration. “It produced a fair bit of cognitive dissonance for me,” he says. “Because ostensibly, I didn’t admire the conservative ethos. But I certainly admired the people.”
     
    At the end of the day, if you want to convince others and set them on the right path, you have to be a model, an admirable model at that. The reason conservatism went badly wrong in the last 30 years was that it became dominated by those who gave intellectual license to plunder the commonwealth. Its leaders were corrupted by wealth and status (and briefly, power) rather than being paragons of virtue. How many conservative thought leaders had their own house in order?

    I see something similar in the nascent, so-called, alt-right movement, which is currently powered by resentment (understandable resentment, but still resentment). A politics of resentment is initially potent, but is bound to end in tears for all involved, because it is ultimately destructive (and frequently self-destructive) rather than constructive.

    What we need today are leaders of a political movement who are self-sacrificing and noble, courageous people who do not shy away from a fight that needs to be fought, but who are also capable of rallying people to build something better and more morally uplifting for their own individual selves and for the society at large.

    At the end of the day, winning politics - and winning political ideas - in the long run is one which helps a broad segment of the population and enhances social cohesion and consensus. That might not be an initially appealing message for angry young women (be they white or something else), but it is what is needed.

    “What we need today are leaders of a political movement who are self-sacrificing and noble, courageous people who do not shy away from a fight that needs to be fought, but who are also capable of rallying people to build something better and more morally uplifting for their own individual selves and for the society at large.”

    If only Steve Sailer had people skills..

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  146. BenKenobi says:
    @Simon in London
    " pro- free-speech, right-wing liberals like Peterson as dangerous enablers for the nationalist alt right."

    But Peterson isn't right-wing, he doesn't consider himself right wing, he's just anti-SJW. Pretty much the same zone as Dave Rubin, for instance. He is not opposed to mass developing-world immigration into the West.

    I agree the Alt-Right has modest Youtube ratings, but 'Libertarian Nationalists' like Lauren Southern and Paul Joseph Watson - essentially pro free speech, right wing liberals who do oppose mass immigration (and in some cases will talk to the moderate end of the Alt Right) - have substantial ratings. And the Control-Left has an (I think) reasonable fear that Peterson can be a conveyor belt to the Libertarian Nationalists.

    I agree the Alt-Right has modest Youtube ratings

    Deplatforming will do that.

    Back to JP: it seems that there is a very distinct fear among the blue check-mark crowd that cleaning one’s room will soon accelerate to cleaning one’s nation.

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    • Replies: @Simon in London
    Millennial Woes is still up; I think he's the only actual alt-Righter on my subscription list.
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  147. Wesley Yang is a Chinaman.

    Jordan Peterson is an Irish Norwegian Canadian.

    Wesley Yang might put the interests of Chinese people over the interests of the European Christian ancestral core of the United States.

    Jordan Peterson is a druggie stooge for the Jew-controlled elements that want to replace the European Christian ancestral core of White nations with non-White, non-Christian foreigners.

    I must admit that this image of Wesley Yang is a disarming and charming photo. Why? Because Wesley Yang looks like an Eskimo about to harpoon a whale to provide food for his tribe.

    Every photo of the ugly druggie Jordan Peterson I have seen leads me to the conclusion that he is an evil rat stooge for Jew elements who wish to do harm to the European Christian people.

    Is this Wesley Yang? Is he going to harpoon a whale and be the hero of the hour?:

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  148. sb says:
    @Old Palo Altan
    If, Steve, you are going to champion the old elites (which of course I applaud) then at least learn how they refer to themselves. There never was a "Lord Kenneth Clark", who, had he existed, would have been the younger son of either a duke or a marquess. An example of this set, one you have more than once referred to here, was Lord Randolph Churchill, younger son of the Duke of Marlborough and father of that old fraud Winston.

    Kenneth Clark was awarded a life peerage in 1969 as "Baron Clark of Saltwood in the County of Kent".
    "Baron" is never used in pubic discourse or in a social setting, but only in legal documents of a kind increasingly rare; thus he, and any other baron, is always referred to as "Lord X", in has case, of course, simply as "Lord Clark".

    There is, I promise you, a distinct satisfaction in getting these things right.

    Hear hear
    For my part I’ve long been appalled as to how few ostensibly educated people seem to be aware of the correct way to address the daughter of a marquis

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  149. @Reg Cæsar
    "Wesley" Yang?

    Didn't Methodism have some connection to the Taiping Rebellion?

    Chinese love anglo names. Beats me why. I know a Gawaine, Elaine, and an Albert chinaman.

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    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    Chinese love anglo names. Beats me why. I know a Gawaine, Elaine, and an Albert chinaman.
     
    I knew a Japanese Wesley and a Chinese Malcolm as a kid in Honolulu.

    I also shared space with a grad student from China who wanted me to get him an English name. But he preferred to go by meaning rather than sound. It was pretty easy to translate-- I renamed him Albert King. Just like the bluesman.
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  150. OFF TOPIC

    I hereby accuse the Southern Poverty Law Center(SPLC) of pushing WHITE GENOCIDE.

    The SPLC pushes nation-wrecking open borders mass immigration and amnesty for illegal alien invaders.

    The SPLC pushes multiculturalism and the SPLC pushes an anti-White agenda.

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    Stupid and arrogant of them to mention South Africa. Even normies know about Zimbabwe, and many have some idea SA is going the same way.
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  151. AndrewR says:
    @Bill P
    I first heard about Peterson relatively recently. I really haven't been following the trends lately. Turns out my wife's senior citizen mother (she's hardcore anti-communist) has been a fan for longer than I even knew who he was.

    When I checked him out I liked his videos, but it was a bit frustrating for me because I prefer to read (much more efficient use of my time). Although this is probably why I overlooked Peterson, his YouTube presentations are engaging, and probably do more to help the average student understand psychology than any dense book could. He's very quick on his feet, so it's hard to catch the few errors and omissions he makes when responding to wide-ranging questions. The fact that he makes so few is actually pretty impressive for a guy who is speaking extemporaneously so much of the time.

    My takeaway from Peterson is that he actually cares about his students and people in general. He went into clinical psychology, after all. Generally, I'd assume that most people who do that genuinely want to help people. Although a minority may be attracted to the field for the power it gives them over others, Peterson strikes me as an avowed enemy of that type, and I will practice a little amateur psychology here and suggest that this is why he went public with his YouTube videos.

    I support Peterson's approach without any reservations, and those who demand ideological purity from him understand neither the man nor his mission, and should really stop looking a gift horse in the mouth. As a student, I would have loved his classes, and as a father I can only hope that there are some mentors like him for my sons when they come of age.

    Videos and podcasts are great for when you can’t read: when you’re cleaning the house, working out, driving, or doing some other monotonous activity that prevents you from reading but doesn’t require much of your attention.

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  152. @Twinkie

    And you could say he is better for White young men than a lot of “hardcore alt right”. “Clean up your room” is much more useful advice than “wake up normies to the JQ!!” He’s done a hell of a lot more for lost Whites than say Paul Nehlen.
     
    The problem with many ideologues - be they Randians, traditional conservatives, alt-right, white nationalists, whatever - is that they see their ideas as ends in themselves. In reality, PEOPLE are the ends, or more accurately the betterment of people should be the ends. Ideas are good to the extent their adoption helps people achieve their higher aims in life, both material and transcendental.

    The part of the interview I found notable was this:

    The local librarian, who was married to the head of the NDP, Canada’s social-democratic party, identified Peterson as a young man of promise and gave him a schooling in the great books. He spent his youth as a committed socialist before growing disillusioned with the character of his fellow travelers, whom he came to regard as motivated by resentment. At the same time, he met some conservative small-business owners who earned his grudging admiration. “It produced a fair bit of cognitive dissonance for me,” he says. “Because ostensibly, I didn’t admire the conservative ethos. But I certainly admired the people.”
     
    At the end of the day, if you want to convince others and set them on the right path, you have to be a model, an admirable model at that. The reason conservatism went badly wrong in the last 30 years was that it became dominated by those who gave intellectual license to plunder the commonwealth. Its leaders were corrupted by wealth and status (and briefly, power) rather than being paragons of virtue. How many conservative thought leaders had their own house in order?

    I see something similar in the nascent, so-called, alt-right movement, which is currently powered by resentment (understandable resentment, but still resentment). A politics of resentment is initially potent, but is bound to end in tears for all involved, because it is ultimately destructive (and frequently self-destructive) rather than constructive.

    What we need today are leaders of a political movement who are self-sacrificing and noble, courageous people who do not shy away from a fight that needs to be fought, but who are also capable of rallying people to build something better and more morally uplifting for their own individual selves and for the society at large.

    At the end of the day, winning politics - and winning political ideas - in the long run is one which helps a broad segment of the population and enhances social cohesion and consensus. That might not be an initially appealing message for angry young women (be they white or something else), but it is what is needed.

    Interesting comment.

    How about the “HBD movement” by which I mean social scientists, genetic scientists, interested non-specialists, etc. who can see the evidence for human biodiversity and fight against the mainstream media’s censorship and propaganda campaign against HBD realities. Does that work as a potentially successful movement as you have outlined the requirements for such? It takes away the alt-right resentment but has a lot of the same content.

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  153. AndrewR says:
    @vinteuil
    The Vox Day vs. Jordan Peterson/Lawrence Auster vs. Mark Steyn thing is a sufficiently common phenomenon that it's got a name: "the narcissism of small differences."

    Back in the day, I was thoroughly dismayed by Auster's constant attacks on Steyn, which seemed to surpass in vitriol anything he ever said about genuinely bad actors like, say, David Frum. And Beale's scorched earth tactics against Peterson are, if anything, still more "off the rails" - as you aptly put it.

    The word "narcissism" is particularly apropos in Beale's case - is there anybody on the internet so quick to toot his own horn - and to toot is so loudly?

    VD is a joke. I stumbled on his blog one time. I saw he was making a big deal of his so-called American Indian heritage for some reason, so I mocked him by calling him Big Chief Blogging Eagle. Then he responded by saying “look how racist these leftist SJWs are” even though I had said nothing that could be construed as leftist. All I had done was mock him, which in his mind automatically makes me an “SJW.”

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  154. Rod1963 says:
    @The Z Blog
    A few months ago I compared him to Stephen Covey: http://thezman.com/wordpress/?p=12851

    I'm agnostic on these guys. Maybe there is some utility in their very mild push back against the prevailing orthodoxy. They tend to come and go, so there is a chance they are just useful distractions for the people steamrolling the culture. Sort of like the opponent for a barnstorming professional team.

    His responses to the JQ stuff have been pointless and wacky, so I suspect he is not as clever as he lets on. He would have been wise to avoid the topic entirely. Staying in your lane is how you stay a guru.

    At least he’s pushing back, all the alt-right ever do was commit PR suicide at C’ville because the movement was led by a crank spewing WN mind porn to a bunch of white fools. Didn’t any of the geniuses of the movement stop and think that Spencer was trouble? Nope, went right over their pointy heads.

    Frankly the HBD movement deserved the shellacking it got at Spencers goose stepping rally.

    And who’s their new front man? A 19 year old greasy tongued kid. Again they are asking for trouble.

    Peterson gets attention because he does stand up against PC/MC and does it well. He’s not one of our crazies. He’s also providing help for young white men to get their heads on straight in a society and education system that hates them and wants them gone. Which is more than I can say for our side which has it’s head up it’s collective ass on such issues. All they do is endless “Look it’s the Joos!!” posts or “see there are biological differences!”, well duh, any high school kid doing FFA work could tell you that.

    We’re way beyond that point of pointing out who the poisoners of society are and now onto figuring out how to stop them.

    To be blunt we need men of his caliber on our side. He’s attracting the sort of people our side needs but can’t attract because it’s a one trick pony. HBD isn’t enough to promote a alternative to the GOP and certainly insufficient to create a cultural movement to push back against the elites. Hell when I saw Spencer was our side’s defacto front man, I found it sad and a sign of desperation.

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    • Agree: Dissident
    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    any high school kid doing FFA work could tell you that
     
    But then there's the 97.3% of high school kids (pardon the inappropriately caprine term) who are not in FFA.
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  155. roo_ster says:
    @vinteuil
    The Vox Day vs. Jordan Peterson/Lawrence Auster vs. Mark Steyn thing is a sufficiently common phenomenon that it's got a name: "the narcissism of small differences."

    Back in the day, I was thoroughly dismayed by Auster's constant attacks on Steyn, which seemed to surpass in vitriol anything he ever said about genuinely bad actors like, say, David Frum. And Beale's scorched earth tactics against Peterson are, if anything, still more "off the rails" - as you aptly put it.

    The word "narcissism" is particularly apropos in Beale's case - is there anybody on the internet so quick to toot his own horn - and to toot is so loudly?

    I agree in your description of VD’s personality, yet you do not address any of the arguments he has made. Weak sauce, that.

    And the differences between VD and JP are not small. They are at the foundations of their respective philosophies. Understanding this would require, again, reading what they have written.

    JP deserves every slap VD has sent his way.

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  156. Mr. Anon says:
    @Chief Seattle
    OT: Someone else is brave enough to write about the KKKrazy Glue holding together the Democratic party and how it's not enough:

    It would appear that the "emerging Democratic majority" requires anti-white identity politics as its midwife.

    http://theweek.com/articles/772590/white-minority-illusion

    It would appear that the “emerging Democratic majority” requires anti-white identity politics as its midwife.

    http://theweek.com/articles/772590/white-minority-illusion

    That article is notable for the candor of both the author and the people he quotes. They take it as a given that their program – the program of the political left – is the race-displacement of white Americans and the complete rejection of the actual historical America, from its inception right up through the current year. They’re not even trying to hide it anymore.

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  157. SMK says: • Website

    The “broad campaign by the upper reaches of the culture today to denigrate and demonize males and whites and white males…” Exactly how are black, Muslim, and Mestizo-Amerindian males, the three worst groups of humans on earth, being denigrated and demonized by the upper reaches of culture? On the contrary, it’s hate speech to criticize and tell the truth about black male violence and criminality, “Hispanic gangs,” Muslim terrorism and rapes and gang-rapes and misogyny. Truth-telling about and criticism of black and Muslim males is censored and suppressed. In Western Europe to do so is a crime. A woman in the UK was sentenced to 6-months in prison for telling the truth about the terrorism and rapes and gang-rapes committed by Islamic males and “harassing” Muslims. Half of all whites (actually a majority) are female. Left-liberal white males are denigrated and demonized by the “upper reaches of the culture” that are dominated by white male left-liberals?

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  158. Mr. Anon says:
    @Jenner Ickham Errican

    But I would also recommend biting the bullet and setting aside 3 or 4 hours, maybe over a couple days to watch some videos.
     
    You serious?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvBm0ZUfe7I

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JErHX4HWu7c

    I have heard a little about this guy recently, but never seen any of his videos. My only exposure to him was an interview he did on the Tucker Carlson show.

    But – yeah – if that’s representative of them, then…………..I’ll pass.

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  159. You can accuse Vox Day of arrogance, narcissism and viciousness all you want. He’s still correct.

    http://www.unz.com/isteve/nyt-meet-the-renegades-of-the-intellectual-dark-web/

    Peterson and the rest of the “”renegade”” “””intellectuals””” are approved opposition.

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    • Agree: utu
    • Replies: @Harry Baldwin
    I suppose he's "approved opposition" in that, unlike Vox Day, he doesn't do things like refer to Norwegian mass-shooter Anders Breivik as "Saint Breivik." Vox Day is not the sort of person whose writings you would recommend to someone just beginning to investigate anti-SJW thought. People like Jordan Peterson and Jonathan Haidt are. Their writing leads you just so far and not farther, but they are valuable in that they raise questions in the minds of people who are looking for alternatives to the narrative.
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  160. McFly says:

    Peterson’s first podcast on Joe Rogan in late 2016 was his original big break, also a great introduction to his body of work:

    Video is his best medium; probably has something to do with his background as a lecturer and theraputic counselor.

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  161. Anon[204] • Disclaimer says:

    O/T

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/thomaspellechia/2018/05/15/north-american-grapegrowers-have-a-choice-to-make-machines-or-migrants/#79b6cb17436e

    At a meeting held last February in Kennewick, a city along the southwest bank of the Columbia River, just southeast of where the Columbia and Yakima rivers converge, Ken Ballard, an official with the Northwest Farm Credit Service, told Washington winegrowers that in 2016, while manual vineyard labor cost an average $924 an acre, that same acre mechanically serviced cost just under $700. For 2018, the cost of that manual labor is estimated to reach beyond $1,220 an acre, while mechanical service on that acre will rise to just under $800. By 2020, the cost divide will be much wider: almost $1,320 an acre manually compared with almost $865 mechanically. In other words, four years from 2016 the gap between manual labor costs and mechanical labor costs is expected to double.

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  162. OT: Tom Wolfe died.

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  163. Tom Wolfe, dead at 87. RIP.

    The man I most wanted to meet but never did.

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    • Agree: Dan Hayes
    • Replies: @roo_ster
    Truly a loss.
    , @Reg Cæsar

    Tom Wolfe, dead at 87. RIP.

    The man I most wanted to meet but never did.
     
    88.

    That leaves Gay Talese as the undisputed best-dressed author in America.
    , @guest
    That's why I showed up at iSteve today. Waiting for a tribute.
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  164. J1234 says:

    Peterson isn’t a “joiner” of causes, really. That’s why he hates political correctness, but that’s also why he doesn’t actively seek approval (or an audience) from the alt-right or religious right, per se. Unlike many other pundits from the right, he doesn’t seem to portray himself as part of a movement…his philosophies are a bit too idiosyncratic for that. That may be why he is so popular – many see him more as an individual standing up to the orthodoxy. Don’t get me wrong, he’ll happily appear on right wing pundit’s shows and commiserate with them, but he connects with fans differently than most right wing pundits do.

    Steve Sailer has some of the same qualities. That’s my impression, anyway.

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  165. OT — Tom Wolfe is dead.

    RIP.

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  166. Anonymous[808] • Disclaimer says:

    OT

    Inside Higher Ed on Parent PLUS, a sort of student loan program for parents of students, which is disproportionately used by black parents, who then default:

    http://insidehighered.com/news/2018/05/15/report-finds-parent-plus-loans-worsen-outcomes-poorest-families-urges-policy-reforms

    It seems like a complete disaster. Black colleges lobby to keep it, and they include it in financial aid letters as though it were some sort of grant money. Even the Obama administration tried to tighten up the credit requirements, but they were told that change would be racist.

    “Reformers” want to make it dischargable in bankruptcy, or just give grants to black college kids. Critics say that black parents are losing their retirement savings — which make me spit out my drink. I thought that blacks didn’t have any savings, and if they do, why are they taking out a loan?

    Of course the whole thing is being connected to FDR/redlining/black-white family wealth disparity. And they throw in post-WWII GI Bill discrimination, in which blacks were encouraged into vocational programs instead of being directed to physics Ph.D. programs. Just think of all the lost postwar black Nobel Prizes!

    Fishman acknowledged that any attempt to restrict lending to parents would be met with concerns over access. But taking on the loans is risky for some families, she said.

    “The bottom line is these students need more money, and the money cannot be loans,” Fishman said.

    Free stuff from white people, always the answer.

    There’s another article there on the outrage of a new Trump administration policy that more accurately counts the days a foreign student has been in violation of his visa, in determining whether a temporary visa ban is applied:

    http://insidehighered.com/news/2018/05/15/proposed-policy-presents-new-risks-international-students-accused-violating-terms

    They just fixed a bug in the regulations, but it’s being criticized as a human rights violation.

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  167. eD says:
    @theo the kraut
    OT--I made fun of NZ's Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern some time ago bc she looks funny,* now somebody sent me a link that makes her look even funnier.** What's wrong with people? There's something really peculiar about all this current trans-mania.***

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacinda_Ardern

    * https://www.facebook.com/marek.moehling/posts/10155784807574738
    ** https://www.facebook.com/peter.vandenheuvel.79/videos/2226688874024786
    *** That said she's expecting a baby, cf http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11978029 Curious and curiouser--what can't these people do?

    This is hugely OT, and may set some sort of record for OTness for iSteve. Anyway I went through this woman’s Wikipedia article, and there is no hint that she has been anything other than a woman. She has a common law husband and a child. Wtf?

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  168. Melendwyr says: • Website
    @Harry Baldwin
    I'm fascinated by the fact that Jordan Peterson has caused Vox Day to to go completely off the rails. I don't get it, honestly. Can't a man have many things to say that you find interesting and worthwhile, and others you disagree with without it causing you to condemn him unreservedly?

    This used to bother me about the late Lawrence Auster, whom I considered brilliant. He would condemn someone like Matk Steyn as completely useless because while he opened many people's eyes to the dangers of Muslim immigration, he didn't come out and demand that it be ended. (Subsequently, Steyn more or less has done so.) But if Mark Steyn is performing an enormous service in an important area, why is it necessary to condemn him because he doesn't go quite as far rhetorically as you would? It's not as if Steyn is setting policy, after all. He's expressing opinions that may influence people to question the reigning narrative, and the result of that may change policy.

    Can’t a man have many things to say that you find interesting and worthwhile, and others you disagree with without it causing you to condemn him unreservedly?

    Psychologically, no. That’s just not how humans work. The more intensely we define ourselves in terms of our positions on things, the less we can tolerate deviation from those positions. And the more similar the positions are, the more slight deviations become significant.

    It is not logical, but it is often true.

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    • Replies: @uncanny
    In robotics, that is the Uncanny valley.
    , @Dissident
    "The more intensely we define ourselves in terms of our positions on things, the less we can tolerate deviation from those positions."

    Apropos, an anonymous post made to 4Chan's infamous /b (random) board sometime in 2013 or earlier:

    Don't label yourself as anything, ever.

    You get wrapped up in the definition of that label, and modify your own beliefs to become more accurately described by that label.

    Think freely. Make your own opinions, and dgaf[*] about the side you're agreeing with.
     
    *DGAF= Don't Give A F--k
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  169. @Dave Pinsen
    Wolfe was amazingly prescient.

    https://twitter.com/dpinsen/status/988547325927751680
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  170. ATate says:
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  171. eD says:

    Like Steve, I simply don’t have the time and patience to go through hours of youtube videos.

    Look, if you have the time and really like viewing college professors lecturing on youtube, you should start with these. I only got through the first one, since I don’t do youtube lectures, but based on the first one all twenty-five should be worthwhile:

    https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL150326949691B199

    And the topic is human biology, so its even i-Stevey. After viewing these if you still have time I guess you can check out what Peterson is about.

    From my admittedly limited exposure to Peterson, my suspicion is that he is expounding bullshit, according to Harry Frankfurt’s definition of the term. Here are two more links, the first to the pdf of the Frankfurt book (which is short enough that you can read it in less than three hours), the second to the Wikipedia article for a short summary:

    https://www5.csudh.edu/ccauthen/576f12/frankfurt__harry_-_on_bullshit.pdf

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Bullshit

    Bullshit encompasses empty rhetoric, essentially speech that may be said to get a response but isn’t supposed to convey any actual information, either correct or not correct. I just don’t see any claims that can be verified or falsified here.

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  172. Tom Wolfe just passed away.

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  173. Bill P says:
    @Dave Pinsen
    Wolfe was amazingly prescient.

    https://twitter.com/dpinsen/status/988547325927751680

    And on that note Tom Wolfe leaves the stage. What a remarkable American man.

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    • Replies: @slumber_j
    In 1984 or '85 I wrote my 15-pp. college term paper for US Intellectual History Since the Civil War or whatever it was called on Tom Wolfe. The course was taught by the great Donald Fleming, who was one of the few Harvard professors even at that time who would have been sympathetic to any evaluation of Tom Wolfe as an intellectual.

    I suppose I remember it because it was one of the few undergraduate papers I actually enjoyed researching and writing.
    , @PhysicistDave
    Bill P wrote:

    And on that note Tom Wolfe leaves the stage. What a remarkable American man.
     
    The Painted Word : the only book on Modern Art that was interesting and fun to read.

    The Gray Lady's obit sort of dances around the fact that Wolfe was obviously a man of the Right and includes some nasty comments by some "serious" literary figures. It's pretty clear though that the reporters would actually rather read (or have had dinner with) Tom Wolfe than his critics.
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  174. L Woods says:
    @DCThrowback
    it really is weird. i think VD is a very good ideas man and enjoy reading his thoughts on just about every topic (save sci-fi), but it seems like 15+ posts on JP in the last 3 days means jp is in his head like a blood clot.

    narcissism of small differences is a great phrase though, thanks for that.

    He’s a “gamma” blowhard, the likes of which the alt right has no shortage

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  175. @Bill P
    BTW, I should add that Jordan Peterson strikes me as a neo-Stoic, and this adds to Tom Wolfe's prophetic oevre in that he predicts Stoic evangelism in early 21st. Century America in his second novel A Man In Full. It really is kind of remarkable that way, at least to me.

    Speaking of Tom Wolfe…

    A huge loss.

    I feared his Back to Blood would be his last. Even at his advanced age he saw South Florida as it is and understood it. And understood that it is perhaps the best example of what America is becoming.

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    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    The FT's obit writer used critics' take on Back to Blood to argue that Wolfe's "creative well had run dry". What nonsense. It wasn't Bonfire, but it was still an entertaining and astute novel. The critics' reactions were more a sign that the Overton Window had started to close on Wolfe.
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  176. Luke Lea says:

    This current Ben Shapiro interview is quite a good introduction: https://goo.gl/kAhbMZ

    You are going to have to listen, Steve. Peterson is not a very good writer, but comes across in person, including in interviews. His style is aural.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    He's one of the very few I can listen to, I prefer to read transcripts in general.
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  177. @Warner
    Steve, you are correct in everything you analyze regarding Jordan Peterson. But I would also recommend biting the bullet and setting aside 3 or 4 hours, maybe over a couple days to watch some videos. If you want recommendations, let me know. I'm leading a JP discussion group in NYC. We watch 5-20 minute clips and discuss. The group has grown 5x since we added his videos.

    When and where is this? Assuming it doesn’t conflict with my schedule, I’d be interested in attending.

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    • Replies: @Warner
    SoHo. Mondays. 715pm.
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  178. Yngvar says:
    @eah
    https://twitter.com/ramzpaul/status/995587014258036736

    Zionism is just the Jewish word for ‘nationalism’. It’s not in any particular way controversial.
    ‘Identity politics’ are intra-national positional jockeying for resources; a cancer on society, on community and on communal cohesion, and – you guessed it – a derivative of Marxism.

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  179. @Gunnar von Cowtown
    You can accuse Vox Day of arrogance, narcissism and viciousness all you want. He's still correct.

    http://www.unz.com/isteve/nyt-meet-the-renegades-of-the-intellectual-dark-web/

    Peterson and the rest of the ""renegade"" """intellectuals""" are approved opposition.

    I suppose he’s “approved opposition” in that, unlike Vox Day, he doesn’t do things like refer to Norwegian mass-shooter Anders Breivik as “Saint Breivik.” Vox Day is not the sort of person whose writings you would recommend to someone just beginning to investigate anti-SJW thought. People like Jordan Peterson and Jonathan Haidt are. Their writing leads you just so far and not farther, but they are valuable in that they raise questions in the minds of people who are looking for alternatives to the narrative.

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    • Agree: Simon in London
    • Replies: @Melendwyr
    Calling a mass murderer a 'saint' isn't going to attract anyone to our ideas, because those aren't OUR ideas at all. (And I don't know about you, but I have absolutely no interest in allying with someone who thinks shooting up our opponents is a great idea.)
    , @roo_ster
    Is is possible for you to address VD's claims vis a vis JP without rambling off into ad hominem and/or accusations of badthink?

    Empirical observation, given these last few isteve posts would be "no."
    , @Anonymous
    This. People like Vox Day are coming down with PDS (Peterson Derangement Syndrome). It's most likely because they narcissistically think of themselves as more deserving of delivering the masses from evil.
    , @Gunnar von Cowtown
    Time will tell whether Peterson's a helpful* gateway or a harmful pressure-release valve. My money's on the latter. Quite frankly, I hope he proves me wrong.



    *Who/Whom applies.... YMMV.
    , @map
    The purpose of a controlled opposition is to eventually be brought down., precisely at the point where such an opposition gains the most followers.

    How can this be a good thing?
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  180. I was going to post this as O/T but it is not, entirely. I have watched for with some concern as the UK’s “Conservative” government has been pulling all kinds of strings behind the scenes in the last few years to introduce and enforce soft (and, increasingly, hard) caps on the number of white people in every industry, which are explicitly set to shrink as the white demographic shrinks.

    This covers everything from police, firemen etc to the Bank of England’s policy committee, the Church of England, charities, publishing, local councils, the insurance industry, specific radio station audiences, horseracing … it goes on and on and on, with stats like “only 11% BAME (black and minority ethnic)” labeled “shocking”, “alarming”, “urgent” etc when they are not far off the last UK census.Meanwhile, non-whites are massively and hugely overrepresented in things like medicine and law, but this is apparently fine… except if there are specific fields which are “too white” in which case change is being demanded here too.

    The whole thing is an insanely aggressive campaign against white people done in the most low-key and sneaky way with no public debate and no one really being aware of what’s going on behind the scenes. And it’s all being directed by white people … Why?

    And here, from yesterday.

    The Brixton Finishing School is getting Britain’s advertising and media giants to pay to tackle lack of diversity in the £22bn industry

    BLACK, ASIAN and minority ethnic (BAME) talent are severely under-represented in Britain’s advertising industry, its own professional body has revealed.

    The Government is currently working on a response to last year’s independent review by Baroness McGregor-Smith that looked into the career progression of black and ethnic minority Brits.

    The review found that if black and ethnic minority talent is fully utilized, the UK economy could receive a £24 billion boost.

    Owen added: “we believe that talent is distributed equally amongst the youth of London but opportunities are not. The SCA 2.0 and Brixton Finishing School’s partnership will create and widen runways into our industry to support our ambition for all talent whatever their background to have the seat they’ve earned at the table.

    “For our GDP to thrive post Brexit we need to focus on building a meritocracy that ensures the best people are in the right jobs.”

    Yes, the government took completely seriously a report which said “UK GDP would be much better if non-whites performed exactly the same as whites economically, therefore we must stamp racism out of society to make equality real” (not a word-for-word quotation but the gist of the document and also comment pieces written by its author).

    And now the country is going to set about tackling the “ethnic pay gap” (!) despite acknowledging that “a report into the gaps found they were caused not by black and minority ethnic (BME) employees being paid less for the same job, but by an under-representation of people from such backgrounds in senior jobs.”

    Guardian: London’s public workers face ‘ethnicity pay gap’ of up to 37%

    Mayor vows action as study finds BME workers in police face ‘particularly stark’ divide…This mirrors the findings of a gender pay audit published by the mayoralty in late 2016, which found gaps ranging from nothing to more than 30% because of a lack of women in top jobs.

    Khan said: “I am deeply troubled that members of the black, Asian and minority ethnic community who work at these organisations earn on average less than their white counterparts, and I am determined to confront this inequality.

    “This sort of injustice takes many years to develop and it becomes deeply entrenched. My administration is finally beginning the process of turning this around.”

    Steps introduced to try to close the gap include anonymised recruitment, which removes names from applications, as well as unconscious bias training and a new diversity and inclusion management board.

    Khan said he urged all London businesses and public bodies to take similar action, and said the government should consider legislation to make ethnicity pay audits a legal requirement, as they are for gender pay.

    I hope I’m not alone in feeling incredibly disturbed by all this. It feels the British establishment is way ahead of the curve among Western nations in terms of paving the way to its native people’s destruction as a hated minority like whites in South Africa.

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  181. Melendwyr says: • Website
    @Harry Baldwin
    I suppose he's "approved opposition" in that, unlike Vox Day, he doesn't do things like refer to Norwegian mass-shooter Anders Breivik as "Saint Breivik." Vox Day is not the sort of person whose writings you would recommend to someone just beginning to investigate anti-SJW thought. People like Jordan Peterson and Jonathan Haidt are. Their writing leads you just so far and not farther, but they are valuable in that they raise questions in the minds of people who are looking for alternatives to the narrative.

    Calling a mass murderer a ‘saint’ isn’t going to attract anyone to our ideas, because those aren’t OUR ideas at all. (And I don’t know about you, but I have absolutely no interest in allying with someone who thinks shooting up our opponents is a great idea.)

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    • Replies: @Harry Baldwin
    I don't think in terms of "our" ideas but of my ideas. Lawrence Auster had a lot of influence on my thinking, though I didn't agree with all of his views. Vox Day has also influenced my thinking, but again I don't agree with him on everything. When I read someone's blog or find some of his arguments persuasive, I don't look at it as "allying" myself with him.
    , @Samuel Skinner
    People are not attracted to ideas because they are pretty or make you personally feel good. They are attracted to ideas because they are team colors. If you reject violence and the other side doesn't, your team isn't that attractive and you will lose.
    , @Lot
    Vox Day's "Saint Breivik" didn't kill his political opponents, he killed some random government employees with a truck bomb, then murdered mostly high school age teenagers at a left wing summer camp, who may or may not have formed any political opinions of their own by that time.
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  182. roo_ster says:
    @Percy Gryce
    Tom Wolfe, dead at 87. RIP.

    The man I most wanted to meet but never did.

    Truly a loss.

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  183. roo_ster says:
    @Harry Baldwin
    I suppose he's "approved opposition" in that, unlike Vox Day, he doesn't do things like refer to Norwegian mass-shooter Anders Breivik as "Saint Breivik." Vox Day is not the sort of person whose writings you would recommend to someone just beginning to investigate anti-SJW thought. People like Jordan Peterson and Jonathan Haidt are. Their writing leads you just so far and not farther, but they are valuable in that they raise questions in the minds of people who are looking for alternatives to the narrative.

    Is is possible for you to address VD’s claims vis a vis JP without rambling off into ad hominem and/or accusations of badthink?

    Empirical observation, given these last few isteve posts would be “no.”

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    • Replies: @Harry Baldwin
    I'm not going to give a refutation of Voz Day's critique of Peterson because I don't care what he says about Peterson. Why should I need his opinion of someone I can evaluate for myself ? I'm not one of his Vile Minions, or whatever he calls his sycophants. I'm interested in some things Vox has to say but not in others. He's not my guru.
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  184. @Dave Pinsen
    Why does "Lord" attach to the last name, but "Sir" attach to the first?

    All questions beginning “Why” and relating to English grammar, have the same answer: “Because F*ck You, That’s Why.” Except the ones where the answer is “The Normans”.

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    • LOL: Dave Pinsen
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  185. Anonymous[572] • Disclaimer says:
    @Luke Lea
    This current Ben Shapiro interview is quite a good introduction: https://goo.gl/kAhbMZ

    You are going to have to listen, Steve. Peterson is not a very good writer, but comes across in person, including in interviews. His style is aural.

    He’s one of the very few I can listen to, I prefer to read transcripts in general.

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  186. @Reg Cæsar
    "Wesley" Yang?

    Didn't Methodism have some connection to the Taiping Rebellion?

    Wesley Yang supplies The Wesley House on Martha’s Vineyard with whale meat for the summer season.

    I see they changed the name of the Wesley House to the Wesley Hotel to Summercamp from my internet investigation. That doesn’t change the fact that Methodists like whale meat and potato salad.

    WesleyYang: Nincompoop Of The North:

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  187. Anonymous[572] • Disclaimer says:
    @Harry Baldwin
    I suppose he's "approved opposition" in that, unlike Vox Day, he doesn't do things like refer to Norwegian mass-shooter Anders Breivik as "Saint Breivik." Vox Day is not the sort of person whose writings you would recommend to someone just beginning to investigate anti-SJW thought. People like Jordan Peterson and Jonathan Haidt are. Their writing leads you just so far and not farther, but they are valuable in that they raise questions in the minds of people who are looking for alternatives to the narrative.

    This. People like Vox Day are coming down with PDS (Peterson Derangement Syndrome). It’s most likely because they narcissistically think of themselves as more deserving of delivering the masses from evil.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    I can't tell if I accidentally stole your line in my own comment somewhere here or if we both got approved at the same time, but after thinking about it for a day or so, it really seems the PDS people are acting just like the Trump Derangement Syndrome sorts. Someone who wasn't playing by their rules is actually winning.
    I myself used to despise Trump, for what I still basically regard as good reasons. I got over it. Trump is what we've got, and Peterson is what we've got too. Roll with it, play with it, build on it, accept it. Subvert it if you wish, but subverting presupposes acceptance.
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  188. If Peterson is such a dangerous radical, why is he appearing everywhere on TV? CBC news, TV Ontario, that terrible interview with Cathy Newman, etc etc. He’s part of a new ‘intellectual dark web’ group mostly composed of Jews with left wing histories (e.g., Rubin, Weinstein).

    If he truly was a dangerous critic, he would never be let anywhere near the cameras. Witness how the media treat Catherine Austin Fitts, Gilad Atzmon, Jared Taylor, Kevin MacDonald, Ron Unz, etc. Complete radio silence.

    Peterson is being promoted because he is useful to the left, and to Jewish interests. He is a philosemite who teaches young white males not to be proud of their culture, and not to have any in-group preferences.

    Promoting independence is fine. Standing up against trans language nonsense is fine. However, his core mission is to reduce the possibility of another genocide.

    He is covering up Jewish domination of western societies, and distracting attention away from the third world invasion that they have fostered. He was a fringe figure until a Jewish media producer decided to promote him. Do Jewish media producers tend to promote people who threaten the Jewish worldview?

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  189. anonymous[178] • Disclaimer says:
    @Old Palo Altan
    If, Steve, you are going to champion the old elites (which of course I applaud) then at least learn how they refer to themselves. There never was a "Lord Kenneth Clark", who, had he existed, would have been the younger son of either a duke or a marquess. An example of this set, one you have more than once referred to here, was Lord Randolph Churchill, younger son of the Duke of Marlborough and father of that old fraud Winston.

    Kenneth Clark was awarded a life peerage in 1969 as "Baron Clark of Saltwood in the County of Kent".
    "Baron" is never used in pubic discourse or in a social setting, but only in legal documents of a kind increasingly rare; thus he, and any other baron, is always referred to as "Lord X", in has case, of course, simply as "Lord Clark".

    There is, I promise you, a distinct satisfaction in getting these things right.

    I once knew a guy whose hobby was royalty and nobility and stuff like that. He got magazines and could talk for hours about the Duke of Kent’s cousin being the Count of Romania etc. Seemed like harmless fun, just like I’d compare stats about Duke Snider and Del Ennis. Tastes differ. My view is that nobility and royalty are ready for the ash heap, since they veered into Princess Camilla Parker Bowles, Baron Ringo Starr, and Lord Sir Mick Jagger. I have a feeling guys like the Duke of Edinburgh would sort of agree with me.

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    • Replies: @Old Palo Altan
    The Duke of Edinburgh most certainly does agree with you. He is now about to see his "grandson" Prince Harry bring about the ultimate degradation of a once worthy, if not entirely legitimate, institution.
    But that doesn't mean that the rules of how these people refer to each other are to be ignored.
    Which was my only point.
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  190. @Harry Baldwin
    I suppose he's "approved opposition" in that, unlike Vox Day, he doesn't do things like refer to Norwegian mass-shooter Anders Breivik as "Saint Breivik." Vox Day is not the sort of person whose writings you would recommend to someone just beginning to investigate anti-SJW thought. People like Jordan Peterson and Jonathan Haidt are. Their writing leads you just so far and not farther, but they are valuable in that they raise questions in the minds of people who are looking for alternatives to the narrative.

    Time will tell whether Peterson’s a helpful* gateway or a harmful pressure-release valve. My money’s on the latter. Quite frankly, I hope he proves me wrong.

    *Who/Whom applies…. YMMV.

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    • Replies: @Harry Baldwin
    I'll have to give further thought to the whole gateway vs pressure-release valve conflict. I suppose someone like Jonah Goldberg is more of the latter than the former, but if someone finds Goldberg's take on politics entirely satisfactory, is it likely that they would ever venture through the gateway to the dissident right? I used to read George Will in the 1980s, but eventually found he didn't get to the root of things and pushed further. I don't know that that made him either a gateway or a pressure-release valve. It all depends on the reaction of the reader.
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  191. benjaminl says:

    I, too, much prefer reading to watching videos for bandwidth reasons.

    However, simply as a document of our age, Peterson’s interview with hostile SJW newscaster Cathy Newman must be seen to be believed:

    It is a remarkable record of calm rationality encountering demented hysteria.

    Peterson’s answers on Quora are interesting (though to read most of them you must join Quora)
    * https://www.quora.com/profile/Jordan-B-Peterson

    Other interesting takes on Peterson include

    Matt Welch (libertarian)
    * https://reason.com/archives/2018/05/05/jordan-peterson-is-not-the-sec

    Scott Alexander (whatever he is)
    * http://slatestarcodex.com/2018/03/26/book-review-twelve-rules-for-life/

    Alastair Roberts (Protestant)
    * https://alastairadversaria.com/2018/01/27/what-pastors-could-learn-from-jordan-peterson/
    * https://alastairadversaria.com/2018/03/30/understanding-jordan-peterson/
    * https://alastairadversaria.com/2018/04/08/my-writing-on-jordan-peterson/
    etc.

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  192. @Melendwyr
    Calling a mass murderer a 'saint' isn't going to attract anyone to our ideas, because those aren't OUR ideas at all. (And I don't know about you, but I have absolutely no interest in allying with someone who thinks shooting up our opponents is a great idea.)

    I don’t think in terms of “our” ideas but of my ideas. Lawrence Auster had a lot of influence on my thinking, though I didn’t agree with all of his views. Vox Day has also influenced my thinking, but again I don’t agree with him on everything. When I read someone’s blog or find some of his arguments persuasive, I don’t look at it as “allying” myself with him.

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  193. @Harry Baldwin
    I'm fascinated by the fact that Jordan Peterson has caused Vox Day to to go completely off the rails. I don't get it, honestly. Can't a man have many things to say that you find interesting and worthwhile, and others you disagree with without it causing you to condemn him unreservedly?

    This used to bother me about the late Lawrence Auster, whom I considered brilliant. He would condemn someone like Matk Steyn as completely useless because while he opened many people's eyes to the dangers of Muslim immigration, he didn't come out and demand that it be ended. (Subsequently, Steyn more or less has done so.) But if Mark Steyn is performing an enormous service in an important area, why is it necessary to condemn him because he doesn't go quite as far rhetorically as you would? It's not as if Steyn is setting policy, after all. He's expressing opinions that may influence people to question the reigning narrative, and the result of that may change policy.

    Vox has been specific and rational in his many criticisms of Mr. Peterson and the fact you have not be able to grasp that reveals your reading comprehension is way below average.

    Vox has unmasked Mr. Peterson as a dangerous lunatic and that prolly wounds your ego because you think Mr. Peterson is a man of quality.

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    • Replies: @Harry Baldwin
    You are indeed a devoted follower of Vox Day.
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  194. @Gunnar von Cowtown
    Time will tell whether Peterson's a helpful* gateway or a harmful pressure-release valve. My money's on the latter. Quite frankly, I hope he proves me wrong.



    *Who/Whom applies.... YMMV.

    I’ll have to give further thought to the whole gateway vs pressure-release valve conflict. I suppose someone like Jonah Goldberg is more of the latter than the former, but if someone finds Goldberg’s take on politics entirely satisfactory, is it likely that they would ever venture through the gateway to the dissident right? I used to read George Will in the 1980s, but eventually found he didn’t get to the root of things and pushed further. I don’t know that that made him either a gateway or a pressure-release valve. It all depends on the reaction of the reader.

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  195. Jordan Peterson kicks so much ass. The man is basically telling individuals that we can do more; that we must suffer, that suffering is reality and that we need a life with some meaning; since religion is absent for many of us, this public message resonates with us. Since society promotes victimhood and also fun, fun, fun, his message, which he acknowledges is common throughout time, is an important counterbalance. Stop being a victim and get off your ass and push. Choose your path of suffering. He teaches that hierarchies are real and that we are within the hierarchy and we better accept that we are within the social hierarchy and if we don’t like where we are, then change it (this is massively important to 85% of men ’cause: Alpha Fux, Beta Bucks is rather depressing if you are at the 70th percentile). That men and women are different, and you better accept it. That agreeable people are easily advantaged. This man is needed in society. Look at Trump or Obama, or anyone in the public sphere, what worthwhile insight into the human condition have they ever given? Nearly everyone in public is a complete and utter moral loser who promotes victimhood first and foremost and then maybe economics: there is no spiritual realm to anyone in public (and I include the Pope who is a leftist maxipad). A non-insignificant part of Peterson is his spiritual and emotional elements: that life is not just about paying the rent and buying a new car. You life needs meaning. He is not just saying make your bed. This man is providing millions of people with the authoritative and fatherly spark to experience a richer life and while offering guidance for considering your place in the world. While he will speak loudly to some but not others; how anyone can be against this man is beyond me. Older folks have let society rot for their children. They have not fought. People who are against him, often are losers since they choose to be against someone who is doing something, but they themselves never thrust forward to keep the traditions of the world intact, instead they watched the NFL. Maybe some people are against him, because those people are all politics, whereas Peterson is more about the life of the individual. Why does he need to answer the JQ? Individual Jews, Muslims and Christians all face the same basic life situations. He is a practicing clinical psychologist, but people want him to act as if he is the leader of a political party. Ridiculous.

    [MORE]

    He is excellent at framing questions. For instance, the normal question is why are there not more women at the top of politics and business. He reframes as why are there so many men who sacrifice all emotion to achieve the task? He is the only person in public doing this. His insights into women are also interesting, once again because he is the only person really pushing this. One of my favorite reframes is maybe women are depressed as all hell because they are forgoing children even at a young age. Sure this has been said before, but not by someone with a complete and utter push for bettering yourself and not by someone who has run lab experiments and so forth. He also doesn’t frame this issue as outcome based, but rather reinforces that nearly all work is empty for nearly all people; basing these insights off his work with high power attorneys among others.

    He freely admits that a lot of what he says is common knowledge, but that we must all hear things constantly throughout our life. An interesting thing that he says, which I am sure others like me have thought, is that it is impossible for men to compete with women in politics because men cannot be seen as being mean towards women and also because in many male vs male situations there is an undercurrent of the threat of violence which is off the table. It is just good to see someone bringing up these very important topics and doing it with some panache and some career validation. This is not Dennis Miller saying these things. This is a professor of psychology who has an entire career behind him so he is not so easily dismissed.

    A good video for the car. Peterson and Paglia

    Alpha Males

    Darkness of Life and Accepting Everything as a Consequence of Yourself (Vox Day should take heart; if Vox didn’t spend so much time playing games, then maybe he would have been in the public sphere, but he isn’t a big name and has only his own rich-ass to blame):

    Living to your potential

    Nihilism and martyrdom

    Put it all together and that is why he speaks to so many. I shake my head at those who say he is ordinary; the man is one in a million. Rick Warren had a great message with Purpose Driven Life, other people provide excellent manuals for getting shit done, Peterson offers a new perspective that is a bit of both. Plus he is on the carnivore diet (all beef), at the behest of his daughter. Both have experienced transformations from a beef only diet. I have too (the mild state of euphoria is wonderful). The fact that this man would ditch all dietary guidance and go all beef (he was on chicken and broccoli for awhile) is a good sign of someone seeking truth.

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  196. wren says:

    OT: It seems that this is quite a major, avoidable scandal.

    http://www.fox9.com/news/investigators/millions-of-dollars-in-suitcases-fly-out-of-msp-but-why

    A hundred million dollars a year cash in suitcases headed out from Minneapolis to Somalia due to daycare fraud.

    Where is Marge Gunderson when you need her?

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  197. @Melendwyr
    Calling a mass murderer a 'saint' isn't going to attract anyone to our ideas, because those aren't OUR ideas at all. (And I don't know about you, but I have absolutely no interest in allying with someone who thinks shooting up our opponents is a great idea.)

    People are not attracted to ideas because they are pretty or make you personally feel good. They are attracted to ideas because they are team colors. If you reject violence and the other side doesn’t, your team isn’t that attractive and you will lose.

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    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    They are attracted to ideas because they are team colors. If you reject violence and the other side doesn’t, your team isn’t that attractive and you will lose.
     
    This is why Christianity was unable to spread out of its small enclaves on the Mediterranean, and other philosophies have dominated the last two millennia.
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  198. anonymous[629] • Disclaimer says:

    Jordan Peterson sounds like one of those people who has become the flavor of the month in terms of media coverage. I’ve seen him on Carlson’s show on occasion and in general I like what he has to say, particularly as regards the subject of individual responsibility, though admittedly I don’t know what else he has up his sleeve–if anything–simply because I haven’t watched him enough, nor have I read anything that he has written.

    All this being said, the question for the house is as as follows: Does Peterson qualify for a “MacArthur Genius” grant a la Genius T. Coates?

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  199. @Percy Gryce
    Tom Wolfe, dead at 87. RIP.

    The man I most wanted to meet but never did.

    Tom Wolfe, dead at 87. RIP.

    The man I most wanted to meet but never did.

    88.

    That leaves Gay Talese as the undisputed best-dressed author in America.

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  200. map says:
    @Harry Baldwin
    I suppose he's "approved opposition" in that, unlike Vox Day, he doesn't do things like refer to Norwegian mass-shooter Anders Breivik as "Saint Breivik." Vox Day is not the sort of person whose writings you would recommend to someone just beginning to investigate anti-SJW thought. People like Jordan Peterson and Jonathan Haidt are. Their writing leads you just so far and not farther, but they are valuable in that they raise questions in the minds of people who are looking for alternatives to the narrative.

    The purpose of a controlled opposition is to eventually be brought down., precisely at the point where such an opposition gains the most followers.

    How can this be a good thing?

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  201. guest says:
    @27 year old
    Jordan Peterson seems like a gateway drug to me. Peterson-ism is not great but it beats the hell out of bugman-ism and nihilism as far as I can tell.

    And you could say he is better for White young men than a lot of "hardcore alt right". "Clean up your room" is much more useful advice than "wake up normies to the JQ!!" He's done a hell of a lot more for lost Whites than say Paul Nehlen.

    I also think the fixation with him being on some UN panel is way off. Sorry he's not a loser shitposting in his pajamas all the time and people out in the real world respect him and value his input? If you want to win, you need people like this.

    I'm curious to see where he goes and how this plays out.

    If you’re a lost soul who’s at a level where “clean up your room” can help, politics, philosophy, and higher culture in general aren’t your concern. You may as well be listening to Tony Robbins or Dale Carnegie.

    Your false dichotomy between being stuck in your mom’s basement and being out there in the real world writing reports for John Podesta and the U.N. is a new one on me. There are about a billion ways to make it in the world. We just so happen to have to listen to one who’s a psychologist (red flag), mentally ill (red flag), former (?) socialist (red flag), Canadian (at least enough to give you pause), who suddenly became one of our leading “public intellectuals” out of nowhere (red flag), whose main concern is to help the easily led and manipulated (red flag), and happened to work for the U.N. (giant red flag), with ties to unsavory figures like Podesta (red flag) and (indirectly) Soros (biggest red flag).

    I don’t know your experience, but some of us have been here before. I remember what it was like to learn Bill Buckley was a fraud. This “intellectual dark web” thing, it’s not one-one hundredth as convincing. Then go look at Peterson’s videos, and you realize he’s a fraud. Intelligent and a decent performer, but under- or miseducated, superficial, and a fanboy of various popular proto-existential figures like Nietzsche and Dostoyevsky, plus the New Age guru Jung. Who are easy to be into, because they’re fun to read. And who attract screwed-up people. Most importantly, there are various “tells” that he’s selling snake oil. Long pauses, awkward laughter, half-truths and gorilla dust.

    If Peterson acts as a gateway, that’s good. But it’s by accident. His political purpose is twofold: serve as a net to keep falling libs from going to the dark side, and serve as a gate to keep the real right out of the mainstream. What he offers is center-left neoliberalism shorn of the more obviously insane aspects of political correctness. You get a bit of traditional Western culture, but without much of anything that makes it meaningful. Christianity without Christ. Stuff you don’t really believe in, but the stories are fun and instructive.

    Radical individualism to boot, which won’t be psychologically healthy in the long-run. Somehow you’re allowed to create Truth for yourself, and you can establish your own meaning on a bed of sand. But you can’t ever, never, ever get involved in ideology or have a group identity. Because that way lies Holocaust/Holodomor. Every time! Inevitably.

    That’s what is so dangerous about Peterson. Because though he gives out some good things, he cuts off the necessary things. Without identity politics and proper ideological, Western civilization is dead. Dead.

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    • Replies: @27 year old

    If you’re a lost soul who’s at a level where “clean up your room” can help, politics, philosophy, and higher culture in general aren’t your concern.
     
    No argument here, but somebody needs to tell that to a lot of AR/WN/etc "leaders". Our thing has a lot of good guys with good jobs, wives, children, come from good families, etc. But we also have a lot of human wreckage, who would be better off staying far away from the meme wars and getting their shit together.

    You may as well be listening to Tony Robbins or Dale Carnegie.
     
    Those guys aren't explicitly anti-SJW.

    psychologist (red flag), mentally ill (red flag), former (?) socialist (red flag), Canadian (at least enough to give you pause), who suddenly became one of our leading “public intellectuals” out of nowhere (red flag), whose main concern is to help the easily led and manipulated (red flag), and happened to work for the U.N. (giant red flag), with ties to unsavory figures like Podesta (red flag) and (indirectly) Soros (biggest red flag).
     
    Nowhere did I say that we should accept everything he says uncritically. People should absolutely ask Peterson about these things and see what he says, and go from there. Look, what do you want the guy to do, say no to easy money and massive resume padding from the UN? He's supposed to refuse to work on some report that probably nobody will ever read because of muh New World Order? The fuck kind of loser bullshit is that?

    Radical individualism to boot, which won’t be psychologically healthy in the long-run.
     

    Yoo hate to break this to you, there's gonna be radical individualists in The Ethnostate. Again, what Peterson is selling isn't great, but it's better than what men are getting from most other sources.

    But you can’t ever, never, ever get involved in ideology or have a group identity. Because that way lies Holocaust/Holodomor. Every time! Inevitably.
     

    You and I both know this is absolutely retarded reasoning and if Peterson, um, brainwashes, White guys to the point that they can't see how absurd this is too, they weren't likely to become one of us anyway...

    That’s what is so dangerous about Peterson. Because though he gives out some good things, he cuts off the necessary things. Without identity politics and proper ideological, Western civilization is dead.
     
    Who out there from the "real right" is producing better digestible, engaging video content that Peterson is cutting people off from finding out about? What, specifically, do you mean when you say without identity politics western civ is dead? "Whites need to play identity politics like everyone else" ... ok... ... ? What does that look like? Whites already vote for implicit Whiteness by healthy margins... It's not because of Peterson that we don't yet have people running for office explicitly as "the White man's candidate".

    The main thing I see Peterson cutting people off from is pornhub and weed.

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  202. @Dave Pinsen
    Why does "Lord" attach to the last name, but "Sir" attach to the first?

    Briefly: to be a baron was to be a territorial magnate. A baron was a lord of a place. In time these place names often became surnames, and it became customary to create new peerages attached not only to the name of an estate or place, but also, if uncommonly, to a surname, emphasising that the title was hereditary – for a family, not an individual.
    A knighthood was always a personal and non-hereditary title and thus it was natural that the honorific “Sir” come before the Christian name, the sign of one’s individuality.
    Much more could be said: read Sir Anthony Wagner’s English Genealogy for more on this, and pointers to further reading.

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  203. guest says:
    @Percy Gryce
    Tom Wolfe, dead at 87. RIP.

    The man I most wanted to meet but never did.

    That’s why I showed up at iSteve today. Waiting for a tribute.

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  204. @theo the kraut

    “Baron” is never used in pubic discourse or in a social setting, but only in legal documents of a kind increasingly rare; thus he, and any other baron, is always referred to as “Lord X”, in has case, of course, simply as “Lord Clark”. There is, I promise you, a distinct satisfaction in getting these things right.
     
    There is, I promise you, a distinct satisfaction in pubic discourse.

    Funny, people will keep telling me I need reading glasses.

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  205. Warner says:
    @AnotherDad

    But I would also recommend biting the bullet and setting aside 3 or 4 hours, maybe over a couple days to watch some videos. If you want recommendations, let me know.
     
    Just give them to us.

    I'm with Steve, i find the video thing a low flow information spigot. I do watch a few videos in order to fix stuff where the visual information matters--ex. here's how to reattach my sink to a granite countertop; ok great, now i can do it. But where it doesn't matter i can read much, much faster.

    You're a Jordan Peterson guy--great. Give us the top 3-5 you'd recommend. I'm an old dude a bit north of Steve's age, like several regulars here. I probably won't become a Peterson regular regardless. But my son's a young guy ... but i'd want to see value before telling him to go watch Peterson.

    My syllabus:

    Overview, familiarize with his way of thinking:

    Until 19m17

    Cain and Abel:

    Masculinity-Femininity:

    33m00 to 49m00

    Responsibility:

    Purpose:

    Practical steps:

    Until 9m00

    (References to:

    )

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  206. @27 year old
    Jordan Peterson seems like a gateway drug to me. Peterson-ism is not great but it beats the hell out of bugman-ism and nihilism as far as I can tell.

    And you could say he is better for White young men than a lot of "hardcore alt right". "Clean up your room" is much more useful advice than "wake up normies to the JQ!!" He's done a hell of a lot more for lost Whites than say Paul Nehlen.

    I also think the fixation with him being on some UN panel is way off. Sorry he's not a loser shitposting in his pajamas all the time and people out in the real world respect him and value his input? If you want to win, you need people like this.

    I'm curious to see where he goes and how this plays out.

    Spot on, as was Mr. Sailer’s post.

    The commenters on this blog seem to get more autistic by the day. If you are not absolutely 100% in line with their views about absolutely everything you should be burned at the stake is getting a little old around here.

    Hell, at least Tiny Duck is funny.

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    • Replies: @YetAnotherAnon
    "The commenters on this blog seem to get more autistic by the day. If you are not absolutely 100% in line with their views about absolutely everything you should be burned at the stake is getting a little old around here."

    A more effective form of trolling than the Duck's is to denounce everyone (except Steve and Tom Wolfe) as a globalist sellout, especially if they have real-world success. Not that anyone here would do that of course ;-)

    I'm with Mao* - let a hundred flowers bloom and a hundred schools of thought contend.

    * in practice Mao's campaign was encouraging dissidents to declare themselves so that they could then be imprisoned and 're-educated'.
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  207. @BEER/ we're all going to die
    If Peterson is behind efforts to flood Western nations with migrants -including that work with the UN, etc., (who knows what else) - this in addition to his anti-nationalist propaganda, his outspoken denunciations of identifying with your heritage, his mocking of people taking pride in their identity and caring and defending their roots and ancestry, calling them losers, and so on, except of course for a certain special group he loves deeply and weeps for, well I do not blame Vox Day one bit for going on the attack. It's abooot bloody time buckos.

    Gee thx Steve.

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  208. @Bill P
    I first heard about Peterson relatively recently. I really haven't been following the trends lately. Turns out my wife's senior citizen mother (she's hardcore anti-communist) has been a fan for longer than I even knew who he was.

    When I checked him out I liked his videos, but it was a bit frustrating for me because I prefer to read (much more efficient use of my time). Although this is probably why I overlooked Peterson, his YouTube presentations are engaging, and probably do more to help the average student understand psychology than any dense book could. He's very quick on his feet, so it's hard to catch the few errors and omissions he makes when responding to wide-ranging questions. The fact that he makes so few is actually pretty impressive for a guy who is speaking extemporaneously so much of the time.

    My takeaway from Peterson is that he actually cares about his students and people in general. He went into clinical psychology, after all. Generally, I'd assume that most people who do that genuinely want to help people. Although a minority may be attracted to the field for the power it gives them over others, Peterson strikes me as an avowed enemy of that type, and I will practice a little amateur psychology here and suggest that this is why he went public with his YouTube videos.

    I support Peterson's approach without any reservations, and those who demand ideological purity from him understand neither the man nor his mission, and should really stop looking a gift horse in the mouth. As a student, I would have loved his classes, and as a father I can only hope that there are some mentors like him for my sons when they come of age.

    Agree.

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  209. Anonymous[227] • Disclaimer says:

    I am a 3rd cousin to royalty; The Baron of Brains.

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  210. @Harry Baldwin
    I'm fascinated by the fact that Jordan Peterson has caused Vox Day to to go completely off the rails. I don't get it, honestly. Can't a man have many things to say that you find interesting and worthwhile, and others you disagree with without it causing you to condemn him unreservedly?

    This used to bother me about the late Lawrence Auster, whom I considered brilliant. He would condemn someone like Matk Steyn as completely useless because while he opened many people's eyes to the dangers of Muslim immigration, he didn't come out and demand that it be ended. (Subsequently, Steyn more or less has done so.) But if Mark Steyn is performing an enormous service in an important area, why is it necessary to condemn him because he doesn't go quite as far rhetorically as you would? It's not as if Steyn is setting policy, after all. He's expressing opinions that may influence people to question the reigning narrative, and the result of that may change policy.

    That’s weird I thought this exact same thing 5 minutes before I read your comment. I was a huge fan of LA (corresponded with and donated to him) except for the part you just listed.

    I was re-reading Burke this morning getting ready for a lunch discussion on Friday and ran across a section of Burke I had copied in a hand written letter to LA with a check I sent him.

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  211. @vinteuil
    The Vox Day vs. Jordan Peterson/Lawrence Auster vs. Mark Steyn thing is a sufficiently common phenomenon that it's got a name: "the narcissism of small differences."

    Back in the day, I was thoroughly dismayed by Auster's constant attacks on Steyn, which seemed to surpass in vitriol anything he ever said about genuinely bad actors like, say, David Frum. And Beale's scorched earth tactics against Peterson are, if anything, still more "off the rails" - as you aptly put it.

    The word "narcissism" is particularly apropos in Beale's case - is there anybody on the internet so quick to toot his own horn - and to toot is so loudly?

    The Market Ticker dude, Karl Denninger is. I swear that mofo walks on water if you were to listen to him.

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  212. Jeffrey S. says: • Website
    @eah
    https://twitter.com/ramzpaul/status/995587014258036736

    This comment from RAMZPAUL is silly. Zionism is a nationalistic project — there is nothing strange or bizarre about wishing the Russians well, hoping for the best for Chile and the Chilean people , thinking the Finish nation is worthy of protection and defense; and finally, cheering on the success of the Jewish people in Israel.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    I have no ill will toward Jews in Israel per se, but I certainly resent the fact that the US Government has been taken over by a small and unrepresentative group in this regard and we are spending eight million a day subsidizing New Jersey on the Jordan.

    But you can't be against nationalism and for Zionism......
    , @George
    If Zionism is nationalism, why not use the term nationalism or Israeli Nationalism instead of Zionism.

    Peterson speaks out against nationalism, although usually referring to the alt right.

    Jordan Peterson: The problem with the Alt-Right
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fInko6WL9No
    , @Svigor
    How in the Hell did you walk away from that comment thinking you'd addressed Ramz' point?

    Oh, wait, I get it - you think you get to frame everything in a pro-Zionist way.

    No. Zionists are opposed to "Russia for the Russians the way Israel is for the Jews." How'd you not know that? Living under a rock?

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  213. @Dave Pinsen
    Wolfe was amazingly prescient.

    https://twitter.com/dpinsen/status/988547325927751680

    Tom Wolfe, RIP. I was hoping he’d live forever. I have read most everything he wrote and wish there were more.

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  214. Alice says:

    His book 12 rules is excellent. You should read it. It is only a “self help” book in the minds of the publisher’s PR team. It is a book that covers cognitive psychology, anthropology, biblical exegesis, evolutionary biology, and his own personal narrative. It sometimes weaves a tale that seems to contradict the “rule”. But what he tells is very fascinating and illuminating view of who we are, how little we can change who we are, and then what we actually can do about it.

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  215. To me it sounds like Jordan Peterson is channeling former Governor of Colorado, Dick Lamm a Democrat.

    In 2006, he gave a controversial speech on the theme of his recently released book, Two Wands, One Nation, advocating that black and Hispanic Americans embrace “Japanese or Jewish values”. The essay was widely criticized by Colorado community groups and leader of his own party.

    In 2005, a 2004 speech by Lamm titled “I Have a Plan to Destroy America,” became famous after being frequently forwarded as an email; in it he criticizes multiculturalism

    In 2004 Lamm unsuccessfully ran for a seat on the Board of Directors of the Sierra Club. He urged that the Sierra Club advocate immigration controls as a way to limit environmental degradation due to population growth

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  216. @vinteuil
    The Vox Day vs. Jordan Peterson/Lawrence Auster vs. Mark Steyn thing is a sufficiently common phenomenon that it's got a name: "the narcissism of small differences."

    Back in the day, I was thoroughly dismayed by Auster's constant attacks on Steyn, which seemed to surpass in vitriol anything he ever said about genuinely bad actors like, say, David Frum. And Beale's scorched earth tactics against Peterson are, if anything, still more "off the rails" - as you aptly put it.

    The word "narcissism" is particularly apropos in Beale's case - is there anybody on the internet so quick to toot his own horn - and to toot is so loudly?

    “Back in the day, I was thoroughly dismayed by Auster’s constant attacks on Steyn, which seemed to surpass in vitriol anything he ever said about genuinely bad actors like, say, David Frum.”

    Well, there is an obvious difference between the two.

    I recall Auster was polite to me until he PM’d me to ask if I was Jewish, and I said I wasn’t. After that he soon found reason to attack me.

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    • Replies: @J.Ross
    >Auster polite until he specifically nailed down Jewishness
    Interesting, because of course if you were Jewish then it would be okay for you to talk about certain things.
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  217. @BenKenobi

    I agree the Alt-Right has modest Youtube ratings
     
    Deplatforming will do that.

    Back to JP: it seems that there is a very distinct fear among the blue check-mark crowd that cleaning one's room will soon accelerate to cleaning one's nation.

    Millennial Woes is still up; I think he’s the only actual alt-Righter on my subscription list.

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  218. J.Ross says: • Website
    @Simon in London
    "Back in the day, I was thoroughly dismayed by Auster’s constant attacks on Steyn, which seemed to surpass in vitriol anything he ever said about genuinely bad actors like, say, David Frum."

    Well, there is an obvious difference between the two.

    I recall Auster was polite to me until he PM'd me to ask if I was Jewish, and I said I wasn't. After that he soon found reason to attack me.

    >Auster polite until he specifically nailed down Jewishness
    Interesting, because of course if you were Jewish then it would be okay for you to talk about certain things.

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  219. @anonymous
    I once knew a guy whose hobby was royalty and nobility and stuff like that. He got magazines and could talk for hours about the Duke of Kent's cousin being the Count of Romania etc. Seemed like harmless fun, just like I'd compare stats about Duke Snider and Del Ennis. Tastes differ. My view is that nobility and royalty are ready for the ash heap, since they veered into Princess Camilla Parker Bowles, Baron Ringo Starr, and Lord Sir Mick Jagger. I have a feeling guys like the Duke of Edinburgh would sort of agree with me.

    The Duke of Edinburgh most certainly does agree with you. He is now about to see his “grandson” Prince Harry bring about the ultimate degradation of a once worthy, if not entirely legitimate, institution.
    But that doesn’t mean that the rules of how these people refer to each other are to be ignored.
    Which was my only point.

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    • Replies: @Percy Gryce
    I confess I like her look, but she is a disastrous choice.
    , @Hibernian
    "if not entirely legitimate, institution."

    England/Britain/The UK proceeded from a King who broke from Rome and established the C of E, which, along with other factors, lead to his successors' subjects establishing the Presbyterians, Methodists, etc., to a Republic (they deny they ever had one) lead by the lunatic Oliver Cromwell, to a Dutchman, of noble but not royal blood, who became King courtesy of a Protestant rebel army and his marriage to the only Protestant Stuart (or one of the very few), to a bunch of Germans.who married into the Royal family. (This is the present bunch.)

    , @Highlander
    "not entirely legitimate, institution"

    Indeed it is not. In order to rectify the situation, upon the death of his mother Prince Charles should dissolve Parliament, declare the Bill of Rights of 1689, the Act of Settlement of 1701 and its nefarious subsequent amendments (including the egregious Succession to the Crown Act of 2013) all null and void, rally the army led by the regiments of the Household Division by his side and declare himself King by dint of God and the Right of Conquest. This would put to rest any alternate claims to the Stuart succession should they even be put forth and at any rate Charles himself and especially his sons have more Stuart blood than the lot of them given their additional Stuart heritage from their mother.
    , @Dave Pinsen
    Related:

    https://twitter.com/dpinsen/status/994063219676340226
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  220. @Charles Pewitt
    OFF TOPIC

    I hereby accuse the Southern Poverty Law Center(SPLC) of pushing WHITE GENOCIDE.

    The SPLC pushes nation-wrecking open borders mass immigration and amnesty for illegal alien invaders.

    The SPLC pushes multiculturalism and the SPLC pushes an anti-White agenda.

    https://twitter.com/splcenter/status/995816024451764228

    Stupid and arrogant of them to mention South Africa. Even normies know about Zimbabwe, and many have some idea SA is going the same way.

    Read More
    • Replies: @J.Ross
    Arrogant but not unusual. It's calmed down lately but earlier in the year there was a regular parade of triumphalist news feature stories -- ex-Apartheid government police spies who turned, ex-terrorists described as freedom fighters, reassurances that farm murders and statue vandalism aren't happening or are at least not serious, and then of course there was the canonization of Saint Winnie. The left views both Zimbabwe and South Africa as gigantic victories (I wonder if, when someone brings up the fall of Communism in Eastern Europe, a leftist visits his inner shrine to the fall of Apartheid shortly thereafter) and there is no serious contradiction of this view in the mainstream. The deliberate and academic exception, a note taken straight from Beijing, is complaint about specific corrupt officials. Individual nabobs can be blamed, removed, even killed, sure, but the overall system and the progressive march of history is beyond criticism.
    Most mainstream historical pieces on Apartheid show how much can be done by simply omitting criticism. They're not always lying in the simple sense, they're simply presenting everything from one point of view, with all credibility going to one party and no voice for the other.
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  221. J.Ross says: • Website

    OT Viktor Orban has won his war with Soros for now; CNN reports this as “Hungary looks more and more like Russia.” Orban has also declared the end of “liberal democracy” in favor of “Christian democracy” and called out EU bureaucrats working to make migration a human right.

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  222. @Old Palo Altan
    The Duke of Edinburgh most certainly does agree with you. He is now about to see his "grandson" Prince Harry bring about the ultimate degradation of a once worthy, if not entirely legitimate, institution.
    But that doesn't mean that the rules of how these people refer to each other are to be ignored.
    Which was my only point.

    I confess I like her look, but she is a disastrous choice.

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  223. Steve, how about posting a Tom Wolfe open thread?

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  224. J.Ross says: • Website
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    • Replies: @Anon
    Lava: The only thing more destructive to property values than the opening of a black Section 8 building in your neighborhood.
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  225. @unpc downunder
    For a right-wing liberal Peterson has very little to say on economics. In the 1980s, that was pretty much all Commonwealth right-wing liberals talked about -the evils of unions and protectionism and how Thatcher, Keating, etc were rescuing us from the cosy entropy of the Keynesian 50s and 60s.

    This suggests that economic neo-liberalism has pretty much ground to a halt and many people on the liberal right are refocusing on leftist overreach in the cultural sphere. For a while now, economic socialists have been going on about about identity politics and economic neoliberalism feed off each other, and now neoliberalism has ground to a halt (follwoing the 2008 recession) the libertarian types are setting their sights on the cultural Marxists. As shown by their modest You Tube ratings, the alt right are basically just bemused spectators in this battle. However many on the left see pro- free-speech, right-wing liberals like Peterson as dangerous enablers for the nationalist alt right.

    Just for clarity, I use the Auster/Richardson phrase “right-wing liberal” to define someone who is on the right side of the current liberal system. I don’t mean “right-wing” in the sense of being outside the liberal system.

    A right-wing liberal supports liberal economics (free trade, low taxes etc) free speech and promotion by merit and opposes all forms of political collectivism apart from civic nationalism. In contrast to left-wing liberals, right-wing liberals tend to believe in individual self-reliance and don’t think that economically struggling groups (blacks, poor whites, etc) should receive a big leg up from the system.

    You’re probably right that the more intelligent and moderate leftists tends to see Peterson as a gateway to the popular libertarian nationalists, rather than the hard core alt-righters. However, many of the more histrionic leftists don’t see these divisions between various right-wing groups. Hence, even someone like Rubin is seen as a potential alt right enabler since he is willing to have civil discussions with people further to his right.

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  226. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @Jeffrey S.
    This comment from RAMZPAUL is silly. Zionism is a nationalistic project -- there is nothing strange or bizarre about wishing the Russians well, hoping for the best for Chile and the Chilean people , thinking the Finish nation is worthy of protection and defense; and finally, cheering on the success of the Jewish people in Israel.

    I have no ill will toward Jews in Israel per se, but I certainly resent the fact that the US Government has been taken over by a small and unrepresentative group in this regard and we are spending eight million a day subsidizing New Jersey on the Jordan.

    But you can’t be against nationalism and for Zionism……

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    • Replies: @Jeffrey S.
    Anonymous[427],

    I agree with you 100% that it makes no sense to be against nationalism and for Zionism -- to the extent that some confused Jews (and others?) in this country hold this contradictory position is not my problem. All we can do is point to their absurd position and try and change their minds.

    As for your other statement, I'm not quite sure what to think:

    "I certainly resent the fact that the US Government has been taken over by a small and unrepresentative group in this regard and we are spending eight million a day subsidizing New Jersey on the Jordan."

    Are you suggesting that the Jews have somehow taken control of the US Government through secret and nefarious means? What does "taken over" mean exactly? Sounds ominous. Or is the reality more prosaic -- for a variety of reasons, including a well financed Jewish lobby, the US Government support the State of Israel through (mostly) military aid. Personally, I'd like to see us sell our weapons to allies, rather than give them away, but otherwise, foreign aid is a gnat on the bloated carcass of the federal budget.
    , @Dissident

    But you can’t be against nationalism and for Zionism……
     
    I'm for nationalism and against Zionism.

    Zionism is antithetical to the Judaism that I believe in, which forbids Jews from establishing sovereignty over the Holy Land before the arrival of the Messiah. But nationalism for non-Jews? Absolutely fine with me. Even an explicitly Christian or Muslim nationalism? No problem, as long as I am granted the freedom of conscience to worship and live as my faith demands-- something that a mostly white and Christian United States of America has granted, most graciously, to an exceptional, even unprecedented degree.

    Apostate, nihilistic, wicked Jews who attack the foundations of society and promote depravity are no less the enemy of faithful, decent Jews than of Christians. The accursed Bolosheviki were no less vicious to devout Jews than they were to any of their non-Jewish victims. Orthodox Jews who refuse to bow before the golden calf of Zionism are no more loved by many of its worshipers than are any of their Arab enemies. The $PLC et al have attacked not only Christians for daring to be faithful to Biblical teachings about homosexuality, for example, but traditionalist, Orthodox Jews as well.

    For those interested in the topic, I recommend the video
    Judaism vs. Jewish Identity Politics- Gilad Atzmon and Rabbi Yaakov Shapiro

    Note that not only Gilad Atzmon but also Rabbi Yaakov Shapiro, a decent, devoted man who practices what he preaches, have the distinct honor of having made it to the ADL's bad list.

    None of this is to deny that there are fundamental, irreconcilable differences between Judaism and Christianity. But such differences need not prevent peaceful and even harmonious co-existence between the adherents of each.
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  227. George says:
    @Jeffrey S.
    This comment from RAMZPAUL is silly. Zionism is a nationalistic project -- there is nothing strange or bizarre about wishing the Russians well, hoping for the best for Chile and the Chilean people , thinking the Finish nation is worthy of protection and defense; and finally, cheering on the success of the Jewish people in Israel.

    If Zionism is nationalism, why not use the term nationalism or Israeli Nationalism instead of Zionism.

    Peterson speaks out against nationalism, although usually referring to the alt right.

    Jordan Peterson: The problem with the Alt-Right

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    • Replies: @Alan Potkin
    Almost certainly because the term "Zionism" predates —at least in its modern European usage— by more than a century the establishment of the modern State of Israel in 1948. Before then, there had been no "Jewish" nation since Roman times to be the focus of anybody's "nationalism".
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  228. @roo_ster
    Is is possible for you to address VD's claims vis a vis JP without rambling off into ad hominem and/or accusations of badthink?

    Empirical observation, given these last few isteve posts would be "no."

    I’m not going to give a refutation of Voz Day’s critique of Peterson because I don’t care what he says about Peterson. Why should I need his opinion of someone I can evaluate for myself ? I’m not one of his Vile Minions, or whatever he calls his sycophants. I’m interested in some things Vox has to say but not in others. He’s not my guru.

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  229. J.Ross says: • Website
    @Simon in London
    Stupid and arrogant of them to mention South Africa. Even normies know about Zimbabwe, and many have some idea SA is going the same way.

    Arrogant but not unusual. It’s calmed down lately but earlier in the year there was a regular parade of triumphalist news feature stories — ex-Apartheid government police spies who turned, ex-terrorists described as freedom fighters, reassurances that farm murders and statue vandalism aren’t happening or are at least not serious, and then of course there was the canonization of Saint Winnie. The left views both Zimbabwe and South Africa as gigantic victories (I wonder if, when someone brings up the fall of Communism in Eastern Europe, a leftist visits his inner shrine to the fall of Apartheid shortly thereafter) and there is no serious contradiction of this view in the mainstream. The deliberate and academic exception, a note taken straight from Beijing, is complaint about specific corrupt officials. Individual nabobs can be blamed, removed, even killed, sure, but the overall system and the progressive march of history is beyond criticism.
    Most mainstream historical pieces on Apartheid show how much can be done by simply omitting criticism. They’re not always lying in the simple sense, they’re simply presenting everything from one point of view, with all credibility going to one party and no voice for the other.

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  230. J.Ross says: • Website
    @NickG
    You've pretty much nailed it with your take on Peterson Steve.

    Much of the confusion over Peterson seems to come from the interaction of three factors. Is Peterson a warrior against political correctness or a self-help guru for young men or a high-brow traditionalist pro-Western civilization intellectual in the mode of, say, Lord Kenneth Clark, star of the Civilization art history series in the late 1960s that pretty much invented the modern TV documentary?
     
    All of the above. Peterson speaks with commitment and passion - and to borrow from Taleb 'skin in the game' - and talks much sense, he is a quick thinker and annoys all the correct people. Love him to bits!

    Sure, to many of us much of what he says is obvious to the point of triteness.

    He is careful to eschew identity politics, I understand that he has to do this, but think he is wrong on it. Personally I feel that the only way to save the West - Western Europe, the US and Canada, and Australasia - or more specifically the de-facto ethnic cleansing of the European peoples via demographic assault and a culture that persuades many of our best women not to breed, is a strong ethno-nationalist kick back. Sure this will cause conflict, but that's clearly coming anyway.

    I do think he is overdoing it a bit and could well crash and burn, but then he thinks this himself.

    Peterson speaks with commitment and passion – and to borrow from Taleb ‘skin in the game’ – and talks much sense

    I’m not understanding your application of this Talebian concept. Peterson had one textbook illustration of the simplest sort of skin in the game years ago. Real skin in the game is not simply losing something (that happens all the time to people who are wrong or by chance) but intelligently and ethically risking it and getting proven right. But this is exactly what Peterson doesn’t do, this is a guy who stuck his neck out once and is now retired, possibly as a result of having lost his position.
    You do lift, of course?

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    • Replies: @NickG

    I’m not understanding your application of this Talebian concept.
     
    For starters he stood up to the sham of forced speech legislation in Canada. This before he had the fame he now has.

    You do lift, of course?
     
    Why do you ask?
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  231. J.Ross says: • Website
    @Warner
    Steve, you are correct in everything you analyze regarding Jordan Peterson. But I would also recommend biting the bullet and setting aside 3 or 4 hours, maybe over a couple days to watch some videos. If you want recommendations, let me know. I'm leading a JP discussion group in NYC. We watch 5-20 minute clips and discuss. The group has grown 5x since we added his videos.

    Could you broadly describe this group? Did they have or get familiarity with Jung or are they mainly interested in the political stuff?

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    • Replies: @Warner
    Catholic men's discussion group. 20's and 30's. We've started on the themes outlined above but it seems the group wants to go more into the direction of political/sociological.

    I was interested in Jung and Joseph Campbell since long, long ago, so many of Peterson's ideas, though I find them superbly articulated and backed with science and psychometrics more than the aforementioned, are not particularly new to my way of thinking. As a writer, I've taken lessons on story from mythology seriously. In the group, it's more of an introduction to these ideas, then small-group discussions to make it personal or share additional insights.
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  232. Lot says:
    @Hubbub
    Back in my British Lit days, I was taught (by teachers and printed material) to refer to authors with titles, especially Lords, in the following way:

    Alfred, Lord Tennyson

    for example.

    I would suppose that Kenneth Clark would in a similar vein, be referenced as

    Kenneth, Lord Clark

    I’ve seen Alfred, Lord Tennyson, but never George, Lord Byron.

    After the abolition of the French monarchy, Louis XVI became Citizen Louis Capet, after his patrilineal ancestor Hugh Capet. To suck up to the liberals, his cousin the Duke of Orleans named himself Louis Equality, though he was also a patrilineal descendant if Hugh Capet.

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    • Replies: @Old Palo Altan
    Philippe Egalité you mean.
    The swine voted for the murder of his cousin the king, but then fell victim to the even bloodier revolutionaries to his Left, and was himself guillotined ten months later.
    A sweet moment.
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  233. @Mick Jagger gathers no Mosque
    Vox has been specific and rational in his many criticisms of Mr. Peterson and the fact you have not be able to grasp that reveals your reading comprehension is way below average.

    Vox has unmasked Mr. Peterson as a dangerous lunatic and that prolly wounds your ego because you think Mr. Peterson is a man of quality.

    You are indeed a devoted follower of Vox Day.

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  234. Lot says:
    @Melendwyr
    Calling a mass murderer a 'saint' isn't going to attract anyone to our ideas, because those aren't OUR ideas at all. (And I don't know about you, but I have absolutely no interest in allying with someone who thinks shooting up our opponents is a great idea.)

    Vox Day’s “Saint Breivik” didn’t kill his political opponents, he killed some random government employees with a truck bomb, then murdered mostly high school age teenagers at a left wing summer camp, who may or may not have formed any political opinions of their own by that time.

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    • Replies: @Samuel Skinner

    left wing summer camp,
     
    It was a camp of the Workers' Youth League, which is the youth affiliate of the Norweigan Labor party. It is a bit like murdering members of the Hitler's Youth or Soviet Pioneers.

    who may or may not have formed any political opinions of their own by that time.
     
    So what? Most politicians don't have any political opinions of their own. How is that relevant?
    , @Corvinus
    Breivik wasn't a saint. He was a mass murderer who targeted those whom he believed were political adversaries. Vox Day has to cater to his crowd to sell books and t-shirts.
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  235. slumber_j says:
    @Bill P
    And on that note Tom Wolfe leaves the stage. What a remarkable American man.

    In 1984 or ’85 I wrote my 15-pp. college term paper for US Intellectual History Since the Civil War or whatever it was called on Tom Wolfe. The course was taught by the great Donald Fleming, who was one of the few Harvard professors even at that time who would have been sympathetic to any evaluation of Tom Wolfe as an intellectual.

    I suppose I remember it because it was one of the few undergraduate papers I actually enjoyed researching and writing.

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  236. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @PSR
    I've read his book 12 Rules but haven't seen any of his videos. For anyone not familiar with him I would suggest the chapter from that book titled Always Tell the Truth (or at least Don't Lie). If you don't care for that, you're probably not going to like him.

    Everyone has their lists of rules and regulations.

    Some, however, are skeptical:

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  237. @Luke Lea
    I am going to see Peterson in Nashville on June 10. Actually I am going to see who the audience is. I certainly don't agree with everything Peterson says. He's big on Nietzsche for instance, whom I frankly despise, and he can be sloppy with his historical dates, etc.. His Biblical interpretations are psychological whereas mine are economic/historical (see below) but none of that matters. I see him as a breath of fresh air in the shifting cultural winds.

    On the Adam and Eve myth: https://goo.gl/uikvFb

    On the Hebraic conception of God: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ie7d7efepZqFvwcCG-WNGlxyXKIpssU0ge3KM9o50K0/edit?usp=sharing

    On the teachings of Jesus: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ie7d7efepZqFvwcCG-WNGlxyXKIpssU0ge3KM9o50K0/edit?usp=sharing

    I am going to see Peterson in Nashville on June 10. Actually I am going to see who the audience is.

    Nashville is a little too far for me, but your post inspired me to look up his schedule to see if he’s doing anything closer – just ordered tickets for Charlotte on June 10th. Thanks! (BTW, Nashville is on the 11th according to Peterson’s website.)

    The Charlotte venue is Ovens Auditorium. No comment.

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  238. uncanny says:
    @Melendwyr

    Can’t a man have many things to say that you find interesting and worthwhile, and others you disagree with without it causing you to condemn him unreservedly?
     
    Psychologically, no. That's just not how humans work. The more intensely we define ourselves in terms of our positions on things, the less we can tolerate deviation from those positions. And the more similar the positions are, the more slight deviations become significant.

    It is not logical, but it is often true.

    In robotics, that is the Uncanny valley.

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  239. Anonymous[202] • Disclaimer says:
    @J.Ross
    OT apologies if this has already gone around
    A weak argument from a solidly neocon mainstream rag about who will replace who

    Yes, the U.S. is on track to become at some point around 2045 a "minority white" nation — in the sense that if we lump every person who isn't white into a single demographic category of "non-white," whites will be outnumbered. The problem is that no such politically homogeneous category of citizen exists in the real world. It's the creation of demographers and liberal data journalists eager to mollify their anxieties.
     
    http://theweek.com/articles/772590/white-minority-illusion

    Lots of white women in the prog coalition. Even the Dems aren’t dumb enough to go full anti-white.

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    • Replies: @J.Ross
    Are you sure? We have already seen plenty of fighting between minorities and white women. If the Blue Wave proves to be a Delaware tsunami, we might see all the SJWs thrown out and replaced by more pragmatic centrists.
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  240. Luke Lea says:
    @Wokeasf
    "He’s big on Nietzsche for instance, whom I frankly despise"

    Interesting - why do you despise N?

    “He’s big on Nietzsche for instance, whom I frankly despise”

    “Interesting – why do you despise N?”

    For his egotism. His narcissistic self-hero worship. His pagan neo-aristocratic self-glorifying world view, made ridiculous by his Walter Middy like character. He was also a drug addict and it shows.

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  241. Jeffrey S. says: • Website
    @Anonymous
    I have no ill will toward Jews in Israel per se, but I certainly resent the fact that the US Government has been taken over by a small and unrepresentative group in this regard and we are spending eight million a day subsidizing New Jersey on the Jordan.

    But you can't be against nationalism and for Zionism......

    Anonymous[427],

    I agree with you 100% that it makes no sense to be against nationalism and for Zionism — to the extent that some confused Jews (and others?) in this country hold this contradictory position is not my problem. All we can do is point to their absurd position and try and change their minds.

    As for your other statement, I’m not quite sure what to think:

    “I certainly resent the fact that the US Government has been taken over by a small and unrepresentative group in this regard and we are spending eight million a day subsidizing New Jersey on the Jordan.”

    Are you suggesting that the Jews have somehow taken control of the US Government through secret and nefarious means? What does “taken over” mean exactly? Sounds ominous. Or is the reality more prosaic — for a variety of reasons, including a well financed Jewish lobby, the US Government support the State of Israel through (mostly) military aid. Personally, I’d like to see us sell our weapons to allies, rather than give them away, but otherwise, foreign aid is a gnat on the bloated carcass of the federal budget.

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  242. Luke Lea says:
    @Davosbane
    Interesting take on Adam and Eve.
    Did the professor respond to your letter? Did he share anything insightful?

    “Interesting take on Adam and Eve.
    Did the professor respond to your letter? Did he share anything insightful?”

    No. But Goody was already in his eighties. Another professor, this one at Yale, recently contacted me about it though. Said he was going to bring it up at a conference of Mesopotamian archeologists but I never heard back. I should probably re-write it, try to do a better job.

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  243. @guest
    If you're a lost soul who's at a level where "clean up your room" can help, politics, philosophy, and higher culture in general aren't your concern. You may as well be listening to Tony Robbins or Dale Carnegie.

    Your false dichotomy between being stuck in your mom's basement and being out there in the real world writing reports for John Podesta and the U.N. is a new one on me. There are about a billion ways to make it in the world. We just so happen to have to listen to one who's a psychologist (red flag), mentally ill (red flag), former (?) socialist (red flag), Canadian (at least enough to give you pause), who suddenly became one of our leading "public intellectuals" out of nowhere (red flag), whose main concern is to help the easily led and manipulated (red flag), and happened to work for the U.N. (giant red flag), with ties to unsavory figures like Podesta (red flag) and (indirectly) Soros (biggest red flag).

    I don't know your experience, but some of us have been here before. I remember what it was like to learn Bill Buckley was a fraud. This "intellectual dark web" thing, it's not one-one hundredth as convincing. Then go look at Peterson's videos, and you realize he's a fraud. Intelligent and a decent performer, but under- or miseducated, superficial, and a fanboy of various popular proto-existential figures like Nietzsche and Dostoyevsky, plus the New Age guru Jung. Who are easy to be into, because they're fun to read. And who attract screwed-up people. Most importantly, there are various "tells" that he's selling snake oil. Long pauses, awkward laughter, half-truths and gorilla dust.

    If Peterson acts as a gateway, that's good. But it's by accident. His political purpose is twofold: serve as a net to keep falling libs from going to the dark side, and serve as a gate to keep the real right out of the mainstream. What he offers is center-left neoliberalism shorn of the more obviously insane aspects of political correctness. You get a bit of traditional Western culture, but without much of anything that makes it meaningful. Christianity without Christ. Stuff you don't really believe in, but the stories are fun and instructive.

    Radical individualism to boot, which won't be psychologically healthy in the long-run. Somehow you're allowed to create Truth for yourself, and you can establish your own meaning on a bed of sand. But you can't ever, never, ever get involved in ideology or have a group identity. Because that way lies Holocaust/Holodomor. Every time! Inevitably.

    That's what is so dangerous about Peterson. Because though he gives out some good things, he cuts off the necessary things. Without identity politics and proper ideological, Western civilization is dead. Dead.

    If you’re a lost soul who’s at a level where “clean up your room” can help, politics, philosophy, and higher culture in general aren’t your concern.

    No argument here, but somebody needs to tell that to a lot of AR/WN/etc “leaders”. Our thing has a lot of good guys with good jobs, wives, children, come from good families, etc. But we also have a lot of human wreckage, who would be better off staying far away from the meme wars and getting their shit together.

    You may as well be listening to Tony Robbins or Dale Carnegie.

    Those guys aren’t explicitly anti-SJW.

    psychologist (red flag), mentally ill (red flag), former (?) socialist (red flag), Canadian (at least enough to give you pause), who suddenly became one of our leading “public intellectuals” out of nowhere (red flag), whose main concern is to help the easily led and manipulated (red flag), and happened to work for the U.N. (giant red flag), with ties to unsavory figures like Podesta (red flag) and (indirectly) Soros (biggest red flag).

    Nowhere did I say that we should accept everything he says uncritically. People should absolutely ask Peterson about these things and see what he says, and go from there. Look, what do you want the guy to do, say no to easy money and massive resume padding from the UN? He’s supposed to refuse to work on some report that probably nobody will ever read because of muh New World Order? The fuck kind of loser bullshit is that?

    Radical individualism to boot, which won’t be psychologically healthy in the long-run.

    Yoo hate to break this to you, there’s gonna be radical individualists in The Ethnostate. Again, what Peterson is selling isn’t great, but it’s better than what men are getting from most other sources.

    But you can’t ever, never, ever get involved in ideology or have a group identity. Because that way lies Holocaust/Holodomor. Every time! Inevitably.

    You and I both know this is absolutely retarded reasoning and if Peterson, um, brainwashes, White guys to the point that they can’t see how absurd this is too, they weren’t likely to become one of us anyway…

    That’s what is so dangerous about Peterson. Because though he gives out some good things, he cuts off the necessary things. Without identity politics and proper ideological, Western civilization is dead.

    Who out there from the “real right” is producing better digestible, engaging video content that Peterson is cutting people off from finding out about? What, specifically, do you mean when you say without identity politics western civ is dead? “Whites need to play identity politics like everyone else” … ok… … ? What does that look like? Whites already vote for implicit Whiteness by healthy margins… It’s not because of Peterson that we don’t yet have people running for office explicitly as “the White man’s candidate”.

    The main thing I see Peterson cutting people off from is pornhub and weed.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous

    No argument here, but somebody needs to tell that to a lot of AR/WN/etc “leaders”. Our thing has a lot of good guys with good jobs, wives, children, come from good families, etc. But we also have a lot of human wreckage, who would be better off staying far away from the meme wars and getting their shit together.
     
    Yes, WN has a serious quality control issue when it comes to membership. Like Bob Hope's golf club, these movements need to understand that it's more important to drive people out than to pull people in, because you can't do the latter effectively until you take care of the former. The dysfunctional element alienates normal people and makes recruiting much harder than it should be.

    People judge a cause by the quality of its advocates not the logic of its arguments. This message needs to be hammered into the heads of all WN leaders.

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  244. Luke Lea says:
    @VD
    Off the rails? Hardly.

    Unlike practically all of Peterson's fans, I have actually read what he has written, including The 12 Rules, Maps of Meaning, and A New Global Partnership. Unlike most of his fans who have read his work, I am sufficiently well-read to penetrate the incoherent stream of references that he uses to impress his naive and unsophisticated readers.

    This is a man who didn't know Dante was the protagonist of The Divine Comedy. He claims all humans thought in terms of narrative until 500 years ago. He has apparently never read Aristotle, Aquinas, or Augustine, and does not refer to any of them even once in his 700-page book on the architecture of belief. (The two references to Aristotle in the index are contained in his quote of someone else.) His ability to construct an argument doesn't even rise to the level of Sam Harris or Richard Dawkins. He even admits to habitually being dishonest with himself and others.

    The man is an utter intellectual charlatan, and if you are sufficiently familiar with his references or his historical references, you simply cannot escape that conclusion.

    “The man is an utter intellectual charlatan . . .”

    Actually he is more original than that. More interesting than his sources (Jung, Nietzsche, Dostoevsky, etc), I would say, which he uses as a way to introduce his own take on the world.

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    • Replies: @J.Ross
    >Peterson is not a charlatan.
    I agree.
    >Peterson is more interesting than Dostoevsky.
    Lies make baby Jesus cry.
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  245. Luke Lea says:
    @John Achterhof
    I suppose that first video is appropriate for a thread on the Passion of Jordan Peterson. I haven't seen much of his work but as far as I can tell a recent comment on Unz by stillCARealist aptly describes the Essential Peterson:

    "He’s basically a social conservative dwelling in a world of extreme social liberals. He advocates for life long marriage and children, abandoning porn, staying sober, working hard at something you’re good at, saving, telling the truth, helping others, Christianity-lite, eating less, getting off meds if you can, and much more. This is the heart of conservatism, the restraining of the appetites and the impulses to make profitable long-term decisions."

    Fundamentally, it's common-sense stuff - and much needed in this age of loosened restraints. Throw off your attachments to modern distractions and take on yourself. I'm sure it can be life-changing for those encountering this content that have no one around to tell them this. Within the realm of practical philosophy - street philosophy - there are 1) political philosophers concerned with societal welfare and freedom, and 2) existential philosophers concerned primarily with the emancipation/development of the individual out of his own irrational nature. Peterson is clearly based in that second camp. In a time of a modern decadence that would be unimaginable to the ancient Romans that gave meaning to the term, Peterson stands nearly alone among the ruins, endeavoring to restore civilization from the ground up.

    ““He’s basically a social conservative dwelling in a world of extreme social liberals. He advocates for life long marriage and children, abandoning porn, staying sober, working hard at something you’re good at, saving, telling the truth, helping others, Christianity-lite, eating less, getting off meds if you can, and much more. This is the heart of conservatism, the restraining of the appetites and the impulses to make profitable long-term decisions.”

    Fundamentally, it’s common-sense stuff – and much needed in this age of loosened restraints. Throw off your attachments to modern distractions and take on yourself. I’m sure it can be life-changing for those encountering this content that have no one around to tell them this. Within the realm of practical philosophy – street philosophy – there are 1) political philosophers concerned with societal welfare and freedom, and 2) existential philosophers concerned primarily with the emancipation/development of the individual out of his own irrational nature. Peterson is clearly based in that second camp. In a time of a modern decadence that would be unimaginable to the ancient Romans that gave meaning to the term, Peterson stands nearly alone among the ruins, endeavoring to restore civilization from the ground up.”

    Nice summary.

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  246. Anonymous[270] • Disclaimer says:

    All this infighting on the Right simply amazes me. Come on, you don’t have to like everyone, or like everything someone says. Peterson was steadily building his media image in a hope to eventually monetize it. He got his lucky break. So what? Ann Coulter does the same, and so do iSteve and Derb, and scores of others, each in his own way.

    The thing is, the Left is leading Western civilization to a collapse. None of these little squabbles will matter if they succeed. More unity now on the Right is the only thing that can stop the catastrophe that our children will likely face. If and when this existential battle is won, there will always be plenty of time to sort out all of your precious ideas. For now, take what’s in common and work with it the best you can.

    Looked this way, everyone from Pinker through Peterson to McDonald are good guys.

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    • Replies: @Svigor

    All this infighting on the Right simply amazes me.
     
    It shouldn't. Verbal sparring is a time-honored tradition. Most in the alt-right were at least partially attracted by the whole free speech thing. It's a truly dissident group. And it's more like a category of groups than a single one. And it's been excommunicated by the declining, weak, decadent regime, so members often have no one else to talk to but each other.
    , @unpc downunder
    I'm certainly to the right of Peterson on some issues, and as a moderate nationalist I disagree with a lot of what he says. But I don't see him as "controlled opposition." I just see as an opinionated right-wing liberal who is attacking left-wing liberals and anarchists on issues he thinks are important. No need to spend a lot of time attacking him, just recognise his limitations and don't get your hopes too high.

    If you're on the marginalised right, and you're spending most of your time worrying about who is and isn't controlled opposition, then you're not doing much to advance marginal right views.
    , @bartok

    More unity now on the Right is the only thing that can stop the catastrophe that our children will likely face.
     
    There's a big difference between seeking unity by deciding not to punch Right (Trump refusing to apologize for fascists) and deciding to, as you suggest, never punch Left, toward the center.

    In fact, routing the centrists and liberaltarians is an important task in defeating globalism. Punching Left is the right thing to do. Cuckservatives must be routed. The Bush dynasty must stay dead. The Romney dynasty-of-almost-not-quite-Presidents must stay dead. All Bushes, Romneys, McCains, Flakes, Boehners and Ryans should stick to private equity or lobbying and must stay out of office. In other words Trumpism must remain the GOP's standard.
    , @Anonymous
    Crabs in a bucket.
    , @dfordoom

    The thing is, the Left is leading Western civilization to a collapse.
     
    No, liberalism is leading Western civilization to a collapse. More specifically, right-wing liberalism.

    If you care about Western civilization then you can't possibly see right-liberal scum as good guys.
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  247. Anon[362] • Disclaimer says:
    @Bliss
    Holy shit!

    He clearly has mental issues. After checking some relevant videos on YouTube he seems to be suffering from congenital depression:

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=H4DlHBSNJL4


    At 33 seconds into the video.

    I think Peterson really cuts against a lot of contemporary trends that serve to delegitimize feelings and honesty. Among these trends are the pathologization of male emotion and the enrobing of everything you say that might make you vulnerable in irony or snark as a cover-your-ass tactic.

    As others have pointed out, he has gotten email and personal testimony from strangers who tell him that he helped them or even brought them back from suicidal thoughts. I don’t see that you have to have to be mentally ill to cry from time to time when thinking about that.

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    • Replies: @Dissident

    As others have pointed out, he has gotten email and personal testimony from strangers who tell him that he helped them or even brought them back from suicidal thoughts. I don’t see that you have to have to be mentally ill to cry from time to time when thinking about that.
     
    I appreciated your comment. I wish to share something I find apropos, even if only tangentially. The following are two posts (or at least excerpts) I had saved from a thread that I had come across on 4Chan's infamous "/b" (random) board back in 2013. The thread was started by someone announcing that he was considering suicide. Note that I believe that this is the same or at least an overlapping demographic of the one we are talking about here in the context of Jordan Peterson.

    Anonymous (ID: UcmfQrww) 04/04/13(Thu)14:24:22 No.470206625

    >>470205843
    No car bro, had to sell it for lawyer fees.

    Inb4 steal one, I'm not gonna steal some poor person's car and then wreck it.

    The last thing I want to do is fuck over another innocent person, seeing how I know EXACTLY how that feels.

    Anonymous (ID: xI8jGhSt) 04/04/13(Thu)16:31:57 No.470228105

    >>470225406
    To answer in short, yes I may not have a fantastic life but I get up every morning and I make a conscious decision to be a happy person. I make an effort to be a humble, kind individual. I make a particular point of being a productive person, when I do die, I want the scales to tip in the direction that says I put in more than I took out, and no one had to carry my sorry ass whether it be food stamps or my own parents having to bury me. It's kind of like bringing up kids, you put shit in, you get shit out. Thus is life.

    >inb4 "but anon, I tried to put good in and only got shit out"
    bullshit faggot, somewhere you made a bad call, deal with it

    I think more people need to manage their expectations and that they need to understand that it's rough all over and that the chances are pretty god damned good that your life doesn't suck nearly as much as you think it does. Especially murricunts, fucking selfish myopic fucks that we are, our homeless bums eat better than about 60% of humanity. Fucking entitled cunts.

    WE SHIT INTO CLEAN WATER EVERY FUCKING DAY!!!!!! <-- think that one over for a few minutes while your pondering your own perceived misery
     

    I also recall, either from the same thread or a different one, someone describing, in some heart-wrenching detail, how his brother's having committed suicide absolutely destroyed his mother; how, as a result, she was effectively slowly killing herself through severe alcoholism.
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  248. Anon[362] • Disclaimer says:
    @J.Ross
    OT Learn To Swim
    Steve, are you following this at all?
    http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/story/38087728/civil-defense-confirms-new-fissure-in-lanipuna-gardens-subdivision

    Lava: The only thing more destructive to property values than the opening of a black Section 8 building in your neighborhood.

    Read More
    • Replies: @J.Ross
    I am seeing reports I am trying to confirm about a tsunami warning in Delaware (Delaware would be on the wrong coast to be suffering effects from Hawaiian sodomy punishment), however in February there was a false warning (about Delaware tsunamis) that went out but was explained by officials testing a new app. There were "meteo-tsunamis" reported on the Great Lakes recently.
    The February false warning story:
    https://delawarestatenews.net/news/national-weather-service-no-tsunami-warning/
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  249. J.Ross says: • Website

    OT Rapehoax Stone has a feature on /pol/. The politics board has been in the news a lot since the Trumpening but often without being specified. Here the article is about the crowdsourced effort to locate and bring to justice Eric Clanton, a young professor who tried to kill a man by striking his head with a heavy bike lock, and who more or less got away with it, because this was in Berkeley, where the mayor and police department are okay with violence. Recall that the mayor was tweeting during the Antifa riots in support of the rioters.
    The author is one hundred per cent in the tank for Clanton and Antifa. The violence is described as “chaos” coming from both sides and not, say, out-of-town violent masked agitators in an atheist cult of cleansing destruction. Remember that they sold sixty-dollar “don’t break my windows” protection money signs, then broke the windows anyway. That’s not chaos.
    What’s amusing is that this is a case where the leftist is completely indefensibly wrong and /pol/ is completely on the side of safety, right and law, and the Table Smashers are still spinning their wheels trying to write it the other way.
    I haven’t found it in the article yet but would be amused if it was included: before locating the guy who tried to break in a skull, 4chan was known for crowdsourcing in the name of justice, locating numerous animal abusers with online videos, conducting the Right Wing Safety Squads after the Ghost Ship Fire, and assisting the Russians in locating an ISIS training camp. So it’s not like this came out of nowhere.

    https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/features/antifa-activists-anti-fascist-movement-trial-college-professor-w519899

    https://web.archive.org/web/20180515183716/https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/features/antifa-activists-anti-fascist-movement-trial-college-professor-w519899

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  250. J.Ross says: • Website
    @Luke Lea
    "The man is an utter intellectual charlatan . . ."

    Actually he is more original than that. More interesting than his sources (Jung, Nietzsche, Dostoevsky, etc), I would say, which he uses as a way to introduce his own take on the world.

    >Peterson is not a charlatan.
    I agree.
    >Peterson is more interesting than Dostoevsky.
    Lies make baby Jesus cry.

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  251. @Gross Terry
    Chinese love anglo names. Beats me why. I know a Gawaine, Elaine, and an Albert chinaman.

    Chinese love anglo names. Beats me why. I know a Gawaine, Elaine, and an Albert chinaman.

    I knew a Japanese Wesley and a Chinese Malcolm as a kid in Honolulu.

    I also shared space with a grad student from China who wanted me to get him an English name. But he preferred to go by meaning rather than sound. It was pretty easy to translate– I renamed him Albert King. Just like the bluesman.

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    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
    East Asians often seem more enthusiastic about preserving western classical music too. I sometimes think that, someday int he distant future, the last traces of western civilization will be found in Japan or China.
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  252. @Samuel Skinner
    People are not attracted to ideas because they are pretty or make you personally feel good. They are attracted to ideas because they are team colors. If you reject violence and the other side doesn't, your team isn't that attractive and you will lose.

    They are attracted to ideas because they are team colors. If you reject violence and the other side doesn’t, your team isn’t that attractive and you will lose.

    This is why Christianity was unable to spread out of its small enclaves on the Mediterranean, and other philosophies have dominated the last two millennia.

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    • LOL: Twinkie
    • Replies: @Samuel Skinner
    Christianity doesn't reject violence. It got into power and popular due to Constantine who got his position by military victory.
    , @Johann Ricke

    This is why Christianity was unable to spread out of its small enclaves on the Mediterranean, and other philosophies have dominated the last two millennia.
     
    Surely Theodosius I's adoption of Christianity as Rome's state religion, the subsequent persecution of pagans and the relentless attacks on the threat of schism from heterodox Christian sects had nothing to do with Christianity's present dominance. And the fortuitous adoption of Christianity by talented ethnicities in Europe that conquered the Americas had nothing to do with its spread. Sarcasm aside, the reality remains that the majority of Christians live in areas traditionally occupied by Europeans or conquered by Europe (the Americas, Australia).
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  253. Anon[167] • Disclaimer says:
    @Stumpy Pepys
    Steve, if you watch anything make sure it's not the Vice interview with the one and only Jay Kaspian Kang. Misleading editing, inane questions, stupid looking set- speaking of stupid, that dolt Kang comes across as an intellectual featherweight. Way to smash a stereotype there Jay!

    Gosh, Kang does come across as an idiot in that interview. I like him as a writer. I guess most writers should stick to the printed page.

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  254. J.Ross says: • Website

    OT [Sounds of kazoos celebrating Jajoukanically, responsible dancing, and the opening of small bottles of 7-up] Oh hey you guys, glad you made it; Jeff Sessions did something!

    https://archive.is/qNMRI

    https://www.wfaa.com/article/news/crime/undercover-agents-bust-attempted-meth-smuggling-operation-run-through-dfw-airport/287-552270296

    The arrestees named in the indictment are: Envoy employees Nelson Pabon, Jean Loui Vargas-Malave, Juan Comancho Melendez, Ruben Benito-Matienzo, Joshua Israel Pagan Zapata, Domingo Villafane Martinez III and Luis Javier Collazo Rosado; Spirit employee Jose Luis Gaston-Rolon and former Spirit employee Christian David Cruz

    Funny how, when the Justice Department stops trying to impose a schedule on the tides, they realize deep insights, like how great it would be to work at an airport if you’re a smuggler.

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    • Replies: @YetAnotherAnon
    I see some of the accused work for Spirit Airlines, who fly all over Central and the top end of South America including Colombia, Venezuela and Peru.

    (also appended to the report is this - which covers both golf and Steve's occasional forays towards Roissy territory.

    https://www.wfaa.com/article/news/crime/pga-golfers-wife-arrested-for-battery-resisting-arrest-after-attacking-him-for-performance-at-tpc/77-552287214

    )

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  255. Warner says:
    @Lamar Jackson
    When and where is this? Assuming it doesn't conflict with my schedule, I'd be interested in attending.

    SoHo. Mondays. 715pm.

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  256. J.Ross says: • Website

    OT Jonathan Weissman presents Semitism on C-Span BookTV, mentions Jewish people targeting ideological opponents with online activism. At the thirty minutes and five seconds mark he claims that James Comey wanted to make the SPLC and ADL de facto departments of the FBI.

    https://www.c-span.org/video/?443072-2/semitism

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  257. Anonymous[196] • Disclaimer says:
    @Clyde

    I’m with Steve, i find the video thing a low flow information spigot. I do watch a few videos in order to fix stuff where the visual information matters–ex. here’s how to reattach my sink to a granite countertop; ok great, now i can do it. But where it doesn’t matter i can read much, much faster.
     
    Extract the MP3 from Jordan Peterson's youtube video and listen at your convenience w MP3 player or a flash drive plugged into new automobiles. During exercise or while driving https://www.freegrabapp.com/free-youtube-to-mp3-converter I like agptek MP3 players that are found at ebay and Amazon for about $23

    Extract the MP3 from Jordan Peterson’s youtube video and listen at your convenience w MP3 player or a flash drive plugged into new automobiles. During exercise or while driving https://www.freegrabapp.com/free-youtube-to-mp3-converter I like agptek MP3 players that are found at ebay and Amazon for about $23

    YouTube to MP3 program is free (from CNET). You just drag and drop the page address and it converts to MP3. Then you can use the $3 MP3 Books app to play them like.

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    • Replies: @Dissident
    Any recommendations for a simple way to do the same (i.e., download and convert YouTube vids to mp3 audio files) in (GNU+)Linux?
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  258. J.Ross says: • Website
    @Anon
    Lava: The only thing more destructive to property values than the opening of a black Section 8 building in your neighborhood.

    I am seeing reports I am trying to confirm about a tsunami warning in Delaware (Delaware would be on the wrong coast to be suffering effects from Hawaiian sodomy punishment), however in February there was a false warning (about Delaware tsunamis) that went out but was explained by officials testing a new app. There were “meteo-tsunamis” reported on the Great Lakes recently.
    The February false warning story:

    https://delawarestatenews.net/news/national-weather-service-no-tsunami-warning/

    Read More
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  259. Svigor says:
    @Whiskey
    I love Zionism and think it should be a shining example like Irish Independence to other Whites.

    America should copy Israel especially its border walls pronto. And treat Mexico like Lebanon.

    I am still curious as to how you square your support of Zionism with your opposition to identity politics.

    You won’t answer, of course. And we both know why.

    I love Zionism and think it should be a shining example like Irish Independence to other Whites.

    America should copy Israel especially its border walls pronto. And treat Mexico like Lebanon.

    All we have to do is remove the Zionists from power in the West, and that would become possible. But not until then, because Diaspora Zionists are the single biggest obstacle to White ethnonationalism, White Zionism, American Nationalism, etc.

    Your reply is a dodge; Ramz was criticizing Peterson for hypocrisy – for supporting Zionism but opposing identity politics. Supporting Zionism but opposing identity politics is impossible, for starters, because Zionism IS identity politics. Then there’s the fact that all the leading “anti-racists” are Zionists. All the oligarchs who pour money into leftism are opposed to borders for America, in favor of mass immigration, and opposed to anything like Zionism for Americans or White people, meanwhile they’re in favor of borders for Israel, against mass immigration to Israel, and in favor of Zionism for Jews.

    So simply stating your love for Zionism, without qualification, is straight-up cuckery (for Whites; it’s malignant hypocrisy for Jews).

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  260. Svigor says:
    @J.Ross
    OT Covering the online "alt-right" can lead to "digital PTSD"
    The temptation is to quote the whole thing.

    In a 2015 study by the British Psychological Society, 22 percent of individuals — though not journalists specifically — who repeatedly looked at violent videos or photos on social media scored high on clinical measures of PTSD. Not surprisingly, many of the journalists I spoke to for this story who have covered far-right extremism said they found it hard to return to normal life after covering these groups and digitally monitoring their activity.
     

    Michelle Ferrier is the founder of TrollBusters, an organization that offers support to journalists experiencing online abuse. "Online harassment or online abuse can lead to emotional, psychological, and professional harm,” Ferrier told The Outline. “The persistent and consistent exposure to harmful messages does lead to psychological effects. If journalists do not receive the support and control they need, the harm can lead to PTSD.”
     

    Last year, the most dangerous place to be a journalist in America was at a protest. According to a March report released by U.S. Press Freedom Tracker, protests were home to 29 arrests and 31 known physical attacks on journalists in 2017 alone. Other attacks on press freedom included having equipment seized and searched by law enforcement, or being denied access to traditionally open government events.
     

    Noor Al-Sibai, a staff writer at The Raw Story who covers white supremacy, Islamophobia, and D.C. politics, told me that even though she wasn’t at the “Unite the Right” rally last summer, she was impacted by online coverage of the event. After watching videos coming from Charlottesville and following first-hand accounts from local activists and journalists, Al-Sibai said she and her mother learned someone had died in the car attack. “[We] sat in a parking lot crying,” she recalled. “It was the worst case scenario.”
     
    Bonus: uses "they" to pronoun a Peter.

    https://theoutline.com/post/4543/journalists-ptsd-online-harassment-digital-ptsd-alt-right-white-nationalists

    I hope that’s true. Couldn’t happen to people more deserving (they’ve been doing this to people and entire societies for generations).

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  261. Svigor says:
    @Paul Yarbles
    Too many people here are letting the perfect be the enemy of the good. Be practical! Let the left consume themselves in a purity arms race!

    If Peterson stops young men from being SJW fags, then he’s doing the Lord’s work.

    The proper alt-right attitude is that everyone being led away from the left, even the ones being led away by pied pipers, is gonna get red-pilled.

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  262. Svigor says:
    @Twinkie

    And you could say he is better for White young men than a lot of “hardcore alt right”. “Clean up your room” is much more useful advice than “wake up normies to the JQ!!” He’s done a hell of a lot more for lost Whites than say Paul Nehlen.
     
    The problem with many ideologues - be they Randians, traditional conservatives, alt-right, white nationalists, whatever - is that they see their ideas as ends in themselves. In reality, PEOPLE are the ends, or more accurately the betterment of people should be the ends. Ideas are good to the extent their adoption helps people achieve their higher aims in life, both material and transcendental.

    The part of the interview I found notable was this:

    The local librarian, who was married to the head of the NDP, Canada’s social-democratic party, identified Peterson as a young man of promise and gave him a schooling in the great books. He spent his youth as a committed socialist before growing disillusioned with the character of his fellow travelers, whom he came to regard as motivated by resentment. At the same time, he met some conservative small-business owners who earned his grudging admiration. “It produced a fair bit of cognitive dissonance for me,” he says. “Because ostensibly, I didn’t admire the conservative ethos. But I certainly admired the people.”
     
    At the end of the day, if you want to convince others and set them on the right path, you have to be a model, an admirable model at that. The reason conservatism went badly wrong in the last 30 years was that it became dominated by those who gave intellectual license to plunder the commonwealth. Its leaders were corrupted by wealth and status (and briefly, power) rather than being paragons of virtue. How many conservative thought leaders had their own house in order?

    I see something similar in the nascent, so-called, alt-right movement, which is currently powered by resentment (understandable resentment, but still resentment). A politics of resentment is initially potent, but is bound to end in tears for all involved, because it is ultimately destructive (and frequently self-destructive) rather than constructive.

    What we need today are leaders of a political movement who are self-sacrificing and noble, courageous people who do not shy away from a fight that needs to be fought, but who are also capable of rallying people to build something better and more morally uplifting for their own individual selves and for the society at large.

    At the end of the day, winning politics - and winning political ideas - in the long run is one which helps a broad segment of the population and enhances social cohesion and consensus. That might not be an initially appealing message for angry young women (be they white or something else), but it is what is needed.

    I see something similar in the nascent, so-called, alt-right movement, which is currently powered by resentment (understandable resentment, but still resentment). A politics of resentment is initially potent, but is bound to end in tears for all involved, because it is ultimately destructive (and frequently self-destructive) rather than constructive.

    It’s working for the Jews, no?

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  263. When asked at a Conservative town hall meeting in rural Ontario last year about French Canadians basically running the entire federal bureaucracy in Canada and what he thought about it, Peterson refused to discuss the topic. That’s another sacred cow he won’t touch.

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    • Replies: @Dissident
    Is there any topic you don't expect Jordan B. Peterson to both address and have what you consider the correct view on? He's one man, for crying out loud. As far as I can tell, he never presumed to consider himself a pundit or an expert outside his specific areas of interest. Yes, he addressed the JQ but that's an evergreen topic and JBP would have had to have been blind not to realize that many of his followers were surely at least wondering about it. (And surely you must realize, as well, that for JBP to have addressed the JQ in any other manner than he did would have almost certainly resulted in his being massively de-platformed and blacklisted. Now, you may say that he should have had the courage to proclaim what you consider the truth, no matter the consequences. But that's awfully to easy to demand of someone else, isn't it?)

    In contrast, how many people outside of Canada know or care anything about "French Canadians basically running the entire federal bureaucracy in Canada"?
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  264. Svigor says:
    @Jeffrey S.
    This comment from RAMZPAUL is silly. Zionism is a nationalistic project -- there is nothing strange or bizarre about wishing the Russians well, hoping for the best for Chile and the Chilean people , thinking the Finish nation is worthy of protection and defense; and finally, cheering on the success of the Jewish people in Israel.

    How in the Hell did you walk away from that comment thinking you’d addressed Ramz’ point?

    Oh, wait, I get it – you think you get to frame everything in a pro-Zionist way.

    No. Zionists are opposed to “Russia for the Russians the way Israel is for the Jews.” How’d you not know that? Living under a rock?

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  265. Svigor says:
    @Anonymous
    All this infighting on the Right simply amazes me. Come on, you don't have to like everyone, or like everything someone says. Peterson was steadily building his media image in a hope to eventually monetize it. He got his lucky break. So what? Ann Coulter does the same, and so do iSteve and Derb, and scores of others, each in his own way.

    The thing is, the Left is leading Western civilization to a collapse. None of these little squabbles will matter if they succeed. More unity now on the Right is the only thing that can stop the catastrophe that our children will likely face. If and when this existential battle is won, there will always be plenty of time to sort out all of your precious ideas. For now, take what's in common and work with it the best you can.

    Looked this way, everyone from Pinker through Peterson to McDonald are good guys.

    All this infighting on the Right simply amazes me.

    It shouldn’t. Verbal sparring is a time-honored tradition. Most in the alt-right were at least partially attracted by the whole free speech thing. It’s a truly dissident group. And it’s more like a category of groups than a single one. And it’s been excommunicated by the declining, weak, decadent regime, so members often have no one else to talk to but each other.

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  266. J.Ross says: • Website

    OT Tucker Carlson talks about South African farm murders.

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  267. anon[183] • Disclaimer says:
    @John Achterhof
    I suppose that first video is appropriate for a thread on the Passion of Jordan Peterson. I haven't seen much of his work but as far as I can tell a recent comment on Unz by stillCARealist aptly describes the Essential Peterson:

    "He’s basically a social conservative dwelling in a world of extreme social liberals. He advocates for life long marriage and children, abandoning porn, staying sober, working hard at something you’re good at, saving, telling the truth, helping others, Christianity-lite, eating less, getting off meds if you can, and much more. This is the heart of conservatism, the restraining of the appetites and the impulses to make profitable long-term decisions."

    Fundamentally, it's common-sense stuff - and much needed in this age of loosened restraints. Throw off your attachments to modern distractions and take on yourself. I'm sure it can be life-changing for those encountering this content that have no one around to tell them this. Within the realm of practical philosophy - street philosophy - there are 1) political philosophers concerned with societal welfare and freedom, and 2) existential philosophers concerned primarily with the emancipation/development of the individual out of his own irrational nature. Peterson is clearly based in that second camp. In a time of a modern decadence that would be unimaginable to the ancient Romans that gave meaning to the term, Peterson stands nearly alone among the ruins, endeavoring to restore civilization from the ground up.

    This is ground so empty that Dr. Phil made a career of it. As far as being an intellectual, he seems to be competent enough in psychology.

    He seems like one of the few Academics willing to discuss the extent to which white males are demonized directly and as collateral damage of identity politics. He has his weaknesses in other areas.

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    • Replies: @DFH

    as collateral damage of identity politics
     
    It's not just 'identity politics' though, it's anti-white identity politics. White males were not demonised by the pro-white system that prevailed for the first 190 years of America's existence.
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  268. Anonymous[326] • Disclaimer says:

    Peterson Derangement Syndrome is the dissident right’s cultural appropriation of Trump Derangement Syndrome.

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  269. bartok says:
    @Anonymous
    Work & action, and lots of it, is the only way to stop insecurity, uncertainty, unhappiness. If you want to be happy you’ve got to put in sick levels of work.
    https://youtu.be/qUOv9s0qw_0

    Work & action, and lots of it, is the only way to stop insecurity, uncertainty, unhappiness. If you want to be happy you’ve got to put in sick levels of work.

    An utterly ridiculous statement. The majority of boys and men are content – indeed their contentment is so obvious that the women in their lives often get annoyed about it, seeing it as passivity (which it can amount to, true).

    Something as simple as televised sports reliably produces contentment in men. Women have a tougher time in this area – their natural or habitual state is something other than contentment.

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  270. @Anonymous
    All this infighting on the Right simply amazes me. Come on, you don't have to like everyone, or like everything someone says. Peterson was steadily building his media image in a hope to eventually monetize it. He got his lucky break. So what? Ann Coulter does the same, and so do iSteve and Derb, and scores of others, each in his own way.

    The thing is, the Left is leading Western civilization to a collapse. None of these little squabbles will matter if they succeed. More unity now on the Right is the only thing that can stop the catastrophe that our children will likely face. If and when this existential battle is won, there will always be plenty of time to sort out all of your precious ideas. For now, take what's in common and work with it the best you can.

    Looked this way, everyone from Pinker through Peterson to McDonald are good guys.

    I’m certainly to the right of Peterson on some issues, and as a moderate nationalist I disagree with a lot of what he says. But I don’t see him as “controlled opposition.” I just see as an opinionated right-wing liberal who is attacking left-wing liberals and anarchists on issues he thinks are important. No need to spend a lot of time attacking him, just recognise his limitations and don’t get your hopes too high.

    If you’re on the marginalised right, and you’re spending most of your time worrying about who is and isn’t controlled opposition, then you’re not doing much to advance marginal right views.

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    • Replies: @J.Ross
    He is not controlled opposition but he is inarguably being set up as such.
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  271. bartok says:
    @Anonymous
    All this infighting on the Right simply amazes me. Come on, you don't have to like everyone, or like everything someone says. Peterson was steadily building his media image in a hope to eventually monetize it. He got his lucky break. So what? Ann Coulter does the same, and so do iSteve and Derb, and scores of others, each in his own way.

    The thing is, the Left is leading Western civilization to a collapse. None of these little squabbles will matter if they succeed. More unity now on the Right is the only thing that can stop the catastrophe that our children will likely face. If and when this existential battle is won, there will always be plenty of time to sort out all of your precious ideas. For now, take what's in common and work with it the best you can.

    Looked this way, everyone from Pinker through Peterson to McDonald are good guys.

    More unity now on the Right is the only thing that can stop the catastrophe that our children will likely face.

    There’s a big difference between seeking unity by deciding not to punch Right (Trump refusing to apologize for fascists) and deciding to, as you suggest, never punch Left, toward the center.

    In fact, routing the centrists and liberaltarians is an important task in defeating globalism. Punching Left is the right thing to do. Cuckservatives must be routed. The Bush dynasty must stay dead. The Romney dynasty-of-almost-not-quite-Presidents must stay dead. All Bushes, Romneys, McCains, Flakes, Boehners and Ryans should stick to private equity or lobbying and must stay out of office. In other words Trumpism must remain the GOP’s standard.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous

    Cuckservatives must be routed.
     
    Great strategy! Particularly when one's definition of cucks is so fluid, nothing can go wrong. Nothing.

    The Left is not monolithic either but they largely bury their differences to cooperate in defeating the Right. And guess what? They are winning. Have been winning and still continue to win. (Albeit at a lower rate lately because they overplayed their hand)
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  272. Dr. Doom says:

    After being an intern at the UN, updating the Kalergi Plan for America and Australia, Gomer Peter-San is now telling men to vacuum the rug for the invaders. Give up your ancestors, embrace your dispossession and be a cuckservative like Peter-San. He makes a six figure salary and that’s enough to pay his rent and health coverage. He needs insurance. He’s the new Willy Cuckley of the Lincoln Log Cabin.
    I’m no big fan of Voice of the Day, but this fruity little urban cowboy Peter-San is the kind of shill that only looks like Hitler at Berkeley.

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  273. @Bill P
    And on that note Tom Wolfe leaves the stage. What a remarkable American man.

    Bill P wrote:

    And on that note Tom Wolfe leaves the stage. What a remarkable American man.

    The Painted Word : the only book on Modern Art that was interesting and fun to read.

    The Gray Lady’s obit sort of dances around the fact that Wolfe was obviously a man of the Right and includes some nasty comments by some “serious” literary figures. It’s pretty clear though that the reporters would actually rather read (or have had dinner with) Tom Wolfe than his critics.

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    • Replies: @Romanian
    It even made of the Romanian press, of course with scant understanding of what his actual merits were. I came straight here when I saw it, thinking there would already be a juicy Tom Wolfe thread I could read. Surprised Steve has not set one up yet. Maybe he is preparing a doozy of a Takimag article.
    , @Dave Pinsen
    The FT had a terrible obit too.

    https://twitter.com/dpinsen/status/996506341027057664
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  274. In other culture news, Andy McCarthy mentions a revealing exchange between lovebirds (isn’t that a sweet euphemism for “adulterers”?) Page and Strzok:

    After Page’s heavily redacted reply about how the Russians “are probably the worst. Very little I finding redeeming about this. Even in history. Couple of good writers and artists I guess,” Strzok raged in a heavily redacted reply, “f***ing conniving cheating savages. At statecraft, athletics, you name it. I’m glad I’m on Team USA.”

    Well, yeah, a couple of good writers and artists.

    Nothing in music though (unless you insist on mentioning Stravisnky, Tchaikovsky, Rimsky-Korsakov, Mussorgsky, Prokofiev, Rachmaninoff, Shostakovich… but none of them are up there with classical composers like John Lennon or Elton John, right?).

    It’s nice to know that high-level people in the Deep State are so well-informed about foreign countries they are trying to frame.

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    • Replies: @Mr. Anon

    It’s nice to know that high-level people in the Deep State are so well-informed about foreign countries they are trying to frame.
     
    Yes, those oh-so-sophisticated coastal liberals, Strzok and Page, are so cultured, aren't they.

    A couple of months ago, I (mistakenly) saw the JLaw movie "Red Sparrow", which was based on a novel written by a former CIA officer. What a bunch of crap. It portrayed Russians in the absolute worst possible light. Every single russian character was a total POS. It seemed designed to give the impression that the entire country, and all of russian society, is s**t
    , @J.Ross
    To be an unapologetic Russki gakr for a minute, one of the things I could never got away from in studying Russian history and culture is the terrifying saintliness of the ordinary Russian in dire emergencies. I honestly think it is impossible for someone to be familiar with how Nadezhda Mandelstam or Bulgakov suffered for love, or how ordinary Russians suffered through the siege of Leningrad, or struggled to get little messages out of gulags by cutting them into timber, or even that hunter in Happy People: A Year in the Taiga walking back to town to try to get help for his dog, and talk like this.
    But it would be easy if your familiarity with Russians depended on Bond movies and twenty minutes of Doctor Zhivago.
    It's like that neocon bumped into at a soiree by U of M mid-east specialist Juan Cole, who very much wanted to bomb Persians but could not return Prof. Cole's Farsi greeting.
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  275. Anonymous[202] • Disclaimer says:
    @27 year old

    If you’re a lost soul who’s at a level where “clean up your room” can help, politics, philosophy, and higher culture in general aren’t your concern.
     
    No argument here, but somebody needs to tell that to a lot of AR/WN/etc "leaders". Our thing has a lot of good guys with good jobs, wives, children, come from good families, etc. But we also have a lot of human wreckage, who would be better off staying far away from the meme wars and getting their shit together.

    You may as well be listening to Tony Robbins or Dale Carnegie.
     
    Those guys aren't explicitly anti-SJW.

    psychologist (red flag), mentally ill (red flag), former (?) socialist (red flag), Canadian (at least enough to give you pause), who suddenly became one of our leading “public intellectuals” out of nowhere (red flag), whose main concern is to help the easily led and manipulated (red flag), and happened to work for the U.N. (giant red flag), with ties to unsavory figures like Podesta (red flag) and (indirectly) Soros (biggest red flag).
     
    Nowhere did I say that we should accept everything he says uncritically. People should absolutely ask Peterson about these things and see what he says, and go from there. Look, what do you want the guy to do, say no to easy money and massive resume padding from the UN? He's supposed to refuse to work on some report that probably nobody will ever read because of muh New World Order? The fuck kind of loser bullshit is that?

    Radical individualism to boot, which won’t be psychologically healthy in the long-run.
     

    Yoo hate to break this to you, there's gonna be radical individualists in The Ethnostate. Again, what Peterson is selling isn't great, but it's better than what men are getting from most other sources.

    But you can’t ever, never, ever get involved in ideology or have a group identity. Because that way lies Holocaust/Holodomor. Every time! Inevitably.
     

    You and I both know this is absolutely retarded reasoning and if Peterson, um, brainwashes, White guys to the point that they can't see how absurd this is too, they weren't likely to become one of us anyway...

    That’s what is so dangerous about Peterson. Because though he gives out some good things, he cuts off the necessary things. Without identity politics and proper ideological, Western civilization is dead.
     
    Who out there from the "real right" is producing better digestible, engaging video content that Peterson is cutting people off from finding out about? What, specifically, do you mean when you say without identity politics western civ is dead? "Whites need to play identity politics like everyone else" ... ok... ... ? What does that look like? Whites already vote for implicit Whiteness by healthy margins... It's not because of Peterson that we don't yet have people running for office explicitly as "the White man's candidate".

    The main thing I see Peterson cutting people off from is pornhub and weed.

    No argument here, but somebody needs to tell that to a lot of AR/WN/etc “leaders”. Our thing has a lot of good guys with good jobs, wives, children, come from good families, etc. But we also have a lot of human wreckage, who would be better off staying far away from the meme wars and getting their shit together.

    Yes, WN has a serious quality control issue when it comes to membership. Like Bob Hope’s golf club, these movements need to understand that it’s more important to drive people out than to pull people in, because you can’t do the latter effectively until you take care of the former. The dysfunctional element alienates normal people and makes recruiting much harder than it should be.

    People judge a cause by the quality of its advocates not the logic of its arguments. This message needs to be hammered into the heads of all WN leaders.

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    • Replies: @L Woods
    Yet "normal people" lack a compelling reason to stick their necks out and rock the boat. Much as the tech industry and the military are tragically stuck with stale pale males to type their code and prosecute their wars on the pointy end, so too the alt right with its "dysfunctional element." You go to war with the army you have. Etc. Boo hoo.
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  276. jim jones says:
    @LondonBob
    I have only ever come across him because I watched his highly entertaining demolition of Cathy Newman when she interviewed him. Well worth watching if you haven't. Anyone who demolishes the left wing world view so succinctly is an asset. I also read a review of his most recent book he wrote that intrigued me and gave a good impression.

    Good luck him, clearly many people don't seem to get any decent instruction on life. God knows how remorlessly white people are attacked and demonised, a bit of self respect would go a long way.

    The Cathy Newman interview has ten million views on Youtube, my feeling is that VD is being eaten up with envy.

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  277. Anonymous[202] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous
    All this infighting on the Right simply amazes me. Come on, you don't have to like everyone, or like everything someone says. Peterson was steadily building his media image in a hope to eventually monetize it. He got his lucky break. So what? Ann Coulter does the same, and so do iSteve and Derb, and scores of others, each in his own way.

    The thing is, the Left is leading Western civilization to a collapse. None of these little squabbles will matter if they succeed. More unity now on the Right is the only thing that can stop the catastrophe that our children will likely face. If and when this existential battle is won, there will always be plenty of time to sort out all of your precious ideas. For now, take what's in common and work with it the best you can.

    Looked this way, everyone from Pinker through Peterson to McDonald are good guys.

    Crabs in a bucket.

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  278. NickG says:
    @J.Ross

    Peterson speaks with commitment and passion – and to borrow from Taleb ‘skin in the game’ – and talks much sense
     
    I'm not understanding your application of this Talebian concept. Peterson had one textbook illustration of the simplest sort of skin in the game years ago. Real skin in the game is not simply losing something (that happens all the time to people who are wrong or by chance) but intelligently and ethically risking it and getting proven right. But this is exactly what Peterson doesn't do, this is a guy who stuck his neck out once and is now retired, possibly as a result of having lost his position.
    You do lift, of course?

    I’m not understanding your application of this Talebian concept.

    For starters he stood up to the sham of forced speech legislation in Canada. This before he had the fame he now has.

    You do lift, of course?

    Why do you ask?

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    • Replies: @Charles Erwin Wilson II

    You do lift, of course?
     

    Why do you ask?
     
    Taleb lifts, and J.Ross lifts, and you should lift too (cf. Dave Pinsen). Otherwise you might be a cuck. (Yes, I lift, but I run too, so I don't really fit in. Some here would characterize me as a cucking outlier, but I think of myself as a high leverage point. :-) )
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  279. Romanian says: • Website
    @PhysicistDave
    Bill P wrote:

    And on that note Tom Wolfe leaves the stage. What a remarkable American man.
     
    The Painted Word : the only book on Modern Art that was interesting and fun to read.

    The Gray Lady's obit sort of dances around the fact that Wolfe was obviously a man of the Right and includes some nasty comments by some "serious" literary figures. It's pretty clear though that the reporters would actually rather read (or have had dinner with) Tom Wolfe than his critics.

    It even made of the Romanian press, of course with scant understanding of what his actual merits were. I came straight here when I saw it, thinking there would already be a juicy Tom Wolfe thread I could read. Surprised Steve has not set one up yet. Maybe he is preparing a doozy of a Takimag article.

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  280. @SimplePseudonymicHandle
    It doesn't surprise me in the least that Vox Day is loosing his cheese-wizz over this.

    As I said in other words in another post still awaiting moderation: Peterson may be the single greatest existential threat to the alt-right - and the Alt-right understands that.

    I think the Maoist left understands him as a enemy they are programmed to try to destroy at all costs, but they probably don't understand that if he succeeds, he's their death too, as much so as that of the Alt-right.

    Vox Day is Alt-Lite not Alt-Right.

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    • Replies: @Corvinus
    No, Vox Day is Alt-Right personified. He wants people to believe he is not one of its leaders. Don't be fooled.
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  281. Dave Pinsen says: • Website
    @PhysicistDave
    Bill P wrote:

    And on that note Tom Wolfe leaves the stage. What a remarkable American man.
     
    The Painted Word : the only book on Modern Art that was interesting and fun to read.

    The Gray Lady's obit sort of dances around the fact that Wolfe was obviously a man of the Right and includes some nasty comments by some "serious" literary figures. It's pretty clear though that the reporters would actually rather read (or have had dinner with) Tom Wolfe than his critics.

    The FT had a terrible obit too.

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  282. Dave Pinsen says: • Website
    @Stan d Mute
    Speaking of Tom Wolfe...

    A huge loss.

    I feared his Back to Blood would be his last. Even at his advanced age he saw South Florida as it is and understood it. And understood that it is perhaps the best example of what America is becoming.

    The FT’s obit writer used critics’ take on Back to Blood to argue that Wolfe’s “creative well had run dry”. What nonsense. It wasn’t Bonfire, but it was still an entertaining and astute novel. The critics’ reactions were more a sign that the Overton Window had started to close on Wolfe.

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    • Agree: AndrewR
    • Replies: @Anon87
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfg0pGly-LM

    I'm disappointed to find out he was working on a book about Political Correctness. Maybe they will be published in some form in the future. It seems like there are always posthumous novels that come out after an author's death; cobbled from notes or manuscripts. Just imagine how much will be released under Stephen King's name after he goes.
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  283. @DangerousBob
    Jordan Peterson is a globalist who proudly wrote the underlying narrative for the 2013 UN Sustainable Development (Open Your Borders for the Zeroth Amendment) report before he got famous.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8KUnK_Nz1ws

    He is controlled opposition and openly despises anyone who is proud of their race or national heritage.

    But despite that, he is most famous where I come from for standing up to feminist idiocy, idiocy which is now the default position and declared policy of my ‘conservative’ government.

    That’s pretty important in a world where the entire education system is feminised.

    You can’t expect him to agree with you (or me) about everything.

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  284. Warner says:
    @J.Ross
    Could you broadly describe this group? Did they have or get familiarity with Jung or are they mainly interested in the political stuff?

    Catholic men’s discussion group. 20′s and 30′s. We’ve started on the themes outlined above but it seems the group wants to go more into the direction of political/sociological.

    I was interested in Jung and Joseph Campbell since long, long ago, so many of Peterson’s ideas, though I find them superbly articulated and backed with science and psychometrics more than the aforementioned, are not particularly new to my way of thinking. As a writer, I’ve taken lessons on story from mythology seriously. In the group, it’s more of an introduction to these ideas, then small-group discussions to make it personal or share additional insights.

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    • Replies: @J.Ross
    That sounds really interesting. I was in an informal Catholic discussion group that would watch a Bill Moyers and Joseph Campbell video and then discuss it for an hour or so, but I was too young and stupid to do anything interesting with it. It might have mattered that Moyers is an open-minded but serious Christian.
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  285. @Reg Cæsar

    They are attracted to ideas because they are team colors. If you reject violence and the other side doesn’t, your team isn’t that attractive and you will lose.
     
    This is why Christianity was unable to spread out of its small enclaves on the Mediterranean, and other philosophies have dominated the last two millennia.

    Christianity doesn’t reject violence. It got into power and popular due to Constantine who got his position by military victory.

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  286. @Chet
    A better characterization is that Vox Day smelled a fraud and publicly analyzed his subject until he discovered the nature and basis of the fraud.

    I watched JP lectures on youtube and listened so some of his latest book. Then I read or watched VD's analysis. I conclude that JP is a fraud and his advice and opinions range from useless to poisonous. As far as his scholarship, he does a fair amount of name-dropping in his work, but I don't trust his interpretations and conclusions.

    Keep in mind that JP wants to be a guru. If you find out that a guru is a fraud, doesn't that taint and undermine everything he has done and continues to do as a guru?

    I think Steve's summary of JP is pretty far from the mark, but then JP is a pretty clever fellow who has stimulated an astonishing diversity of opinions about what JP actually means and what JP is actually about.

    A better analysis still would be that somebody whispered in Vox Day’s ear that Peterson had been associated with the Podesta group, which for Vox and his readers is tantamount (fairly or not) to proof of his being a child molester, and then built around this piece of information a series of ad hominem rants, with the usual marketing pleas to keep watching this space, and let it all play out as if jolly old Vox, always full of intellectual curiosity, had just ventured down the Peterson rabbithole on a lark, totally unaware of what he would “find.”

    Vox Day wants to be–indeed, is, I should say– a guru. His wholesome advice is to call someone a “p*d*phile” whenever they call you a “racist” (“So what?” he explains. “You’re not a racist.” I, for one, would LIKE to be a racist, thank you very much!). His opinions include that Socrates and Plato were frauds.

    He also likes to tease that he is in fact the “Chuck Tingle” who authored Space Raptor, Butt Invasion. Funny little booklet–but there really is in-out, in-out gay bestial dino sex in that. And Tingle now has dozens of original titles on amazon. Does Vox make his living off of writing dino smut? He seems at least to enjoy the implication. Would that make him some sort of “fraud”?

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    • Replies: @Thea
    He also calls himself an alpha which if you need to inform people of that that then I have some news for you.
    , @The Scarlet Pimpernel
    "His wholesome advice is to call someone a “p*d*phile” whenever they call you a “racist”"

    And then when someone called Vox Day a pedophile, he threatened them with legal action for libel. Pot, kettle, boiling over...
    , @Dissident

    Vox Day wants to be–indeed, is, I should say– a guru. His wholesome advice is to call someone a “p*d*phile” whenever they call you a “racist”
     
    Charming.

    Why the censoring of that 'p word'*? (*The one that is so abused; used where, more often than not, 'child predator'; 'molester'; or 'rapist' would be more correct.) Does it trigger some filter?
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  287. @The preferred nomenclature is...
    Spot on, as was Mr. Sailer's post.

    The commenters on this blog seem to get more autistic by the day. If you are not absolutely 100% in line with their views about absolutely everything you should be burned at the stake is getting a little old around here.

    Hell, at least Tiny Duck is funny.

    “The commenters on this blog seem to get more autistic by the day. If you are not absolutely 100% in line with their views about absolutely everything you should be burned at the stake is getting a little old around here.”

    A more effective form of trolling than the Duck’s is to denounce everyone (except Steve and Tom Wolfe) as a globalist sellout, especially if they have real-world success. Not that anyone here would do that of course ;-)

    I’m with Mao* – let a hundred flowers bloom and a hundred schools of thought contend.

    * in practice Mao’s campaign was encouraging dissidents to declare themselves so that they could then be imprisoned and ‘re-educated’.

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  288. Mr. Anon says:
    @PhysicistDave
    In other culture news, Andy McCarthy mentions a revealing exchange between lovebirds (isn't that a sweet euphemism for "adulterers"?) Page and Strzok:

    After Page’s heavily redacted reply about how the Russians “are probably the worst. Very little I finding redeeming about this. Even in history. Couple of good writers and artists I guess,” Strzok raged in a heavily redacted reply, “f***ing conniving cheating savages. At statecraft, athletics, you name it. I’m glad I’m on Team USA.”
     
    Well, yeah, a couple of good writers and artists.

    Nothing in music though (unless you insist on mentioning Stravisnky, Tchaikovsky, Rimsky-Korsakov, Mussorgsky, Prokofiev, Rachmaninoff, Shostakovich... but none of them are up there with classical composers like John Lennon or Elton John, right?).

    It's nice to know that high-level people in the Deep State are so well-informed about foreign countries they are trying to frame.

    It’s nice to know that high-level people in the Deep State are so well-informed about foreign countries they are trying to frame.

    Yes, those oh-so-sophisticated coastal liberals, Strzok and Page, are so cultured, aren’t they.

    A couple of months ago, I (mistakenly) saw the JLaw movie “Red Sparrow”, which was based on a novel written by a former CIA officer. What a bunch of crap. It portrayed Russians in the absolute worst possible light. Every single russian character was a total POS. It seemed designed to give the impression that the entire country, and all of russian society, is s**t

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  289. Mr. Anon says:
    @Reg Cæsar

    Chinese love anglo names. Beats me why. I know a Gawaine, Elaine, and an Albert chinaman.
     
    I knew a Japanese Wesley and a Chinese Malcolm as a kid in Honolulu.

    I also shared space with a grad student from China who wanted me to get him an English name. But he preferred to go by meaning rather than sound. It was pretty easy to translate-- I renamed him Albert King. Just like the bluesman.

    East Asians often seem more enthusiastic about preserving western classical music too. I sometimes think that, someday int he distant future, the last traces of western civilization will be found in Japan or China.

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    Mr. Anon wrote:

    East Asians often seem more enthusiastic about preserving western classical music too.
     
    In 2010, we visited China: we were told by our tour guide that if a Chinese child was not studying (Western) classical piano, it was proof that the family was too poor to afford it.

    We've also heard from people in the piano industry that China is now keeping the world piano industry afloat.

    It's nice to know that Bach, Beethoven, and Debussy still live, even if with a Chinese accent!

    , @Reg Cæsar

    East Asians often seem more enthusiastic about preserving western classical music too. I sometimes think that, someday int he distant future, the last traces of western civilization will be found in Japan or China.

     

    Just like Buddhism is going strong almost everywhere but its native India.
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  290. @J.Ross
    OT [Sounds of kazoos celebrating Jajoukanically, responsible dancing, and the opening of small bottles of 7-up] Oh hey you guys, glad you made it; Jeff Sessions did something!

    https://archive.is/qNMRI
    https://www.wfaa.com/article/news/crime/undercover-agents-bust-attempted-meth-smuggling-operation-run-through-dfw-airport/287-552270296

    The arrestees named in the indictment are: Envoy employees Nelson Pabon, Jean Loui Vargas-Malave, Juan Comancho Melendez, Ruben Benito-Matienzo, Joshua Israel Pagan Zapata, Domingo Villafane Martinez III and Luis Javier Collazo Rosado; Spirit employee Jose Luis Gaston-Rolon and former Spirit employee Christian David Cruz
     
    Funny how, when the Justice Department stops trying to impose a schedule on the tides, they realize deep insights, like how great it would be to work at an airport if you're a smuggler.

    I see some of the accused work for Spirit Airlines, who fly all over Central and the top end of South America including Colombia, Venezuela and Peru.

    (also appended to the report is this – which covers both golf and Steve’s occasional forays towards Roissy territory.

    https://www.wfaa.com/article/news/crime/pga-golfers-wife-arrested-for-battery-resisting-arrest-after-attacking-him-for-performance-at-tpc/77-552287214

    )

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  291. AndrewR says:
    @Anonymous
    Grant Cardone’s secret to crushing it in life. No drugs, no Rx drugs, no alcohol, eat light, get up at 4 a.m., exercise, hustle for 17 hours straight per day, and sell to survive. A poor student with a degree from McNeese State who started out as a cars salesman after college and is now worth $300 million from sales and real estate.

    https://youtu.be/tf3NYpaWbA0

    That sleazebag is not someone any decent person would want to emulate.

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  292. @Twinkie

    And you could say he is better for White young men than a lot of “hardcore alt right”. “Clean up your room” is much more useful advice than “wake up normies to the JQ!!” He’s done a hell of a lot more for lost Whites than say Paul Nehlen.
     
    The problem with many ideologues - be they Randians, traditional conservatives, alt-right, white nationalists, whatever - is that they see their ideas as ends in themselves. In reality, PEOPLE are the ends, or more accurately the betterment of people should be the ends. Ideas are good to the extent their adoption helps people achieve their higher aims in life, both material and transcendental.

    The part of the interview I found notable was this:

    The local librarian, who was married to the head of the NDP, Canada’s social-democratic party, identified Peterson as a young man of promise and gave him a schooling in the great books. He spent his youth as a committed socialist before growing disillusioned with the character of his fellow travelers, whom he came to regard as motivated by resentment. At the same time, he met some conservative small-business owners who earned his grudging admiration. “It produced a fair bit of cognitive dissonance for me,” he says. “Because ostensibly, I didn’t admire the conservative ethos. But I certainly admired the people.”
     
    At the end of the day, if you want to convince others and set them on the right path, you have to be a model, an admirable model at that. The reason conservatism went badly wrong in the last 30 years was that it became dominated by those who gave intellectual license to plunder the commonwealth. Its leaders were corrupted by wealth and status (and briefly, power) rather than being paragons of virtue. How many conservative thought leaders had their own house in order?

    I see something similar in the nascent, so-called, alt-right movement, which is currently powered by resentment (understandable resentment, but still resentment). A politics of resentment is initially potent, but is bound to end in tears for all involved, because it is ultimately destructive (and frequently self-destructive) rather than constructive.

    What we need today are leaders of a political movement who are self-sacrificing and noble, courageous people who do not shy away from a fight that needs to be fought, but who are also capable of rallying people to build something better and more morally uplifting for their own individual selves and for the society at large.

    At the end of the day, winning politics - and winning political ideas - in the long run is one which helps a broad segment of the population and enhances social cohesion and consensus. That might not be an initially appealing message for angry young women (be they white or something else), but it is what is needed.

    Here here.

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