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Were There People Already in the New World When the Indians Arrived?
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At West Hunter, Greg Cochran mentions one of the weirder recent findings in race genomics: some Amerindians, from roughly Panama to Brazil have a moderate amount of ancestry that is most similar to that of the pygmy negritos of the Andaman Islands in the Indian Ocean:

One very important point, naturally mentioned in none of the press accounts, is is what they didn’t see: the Alaskan kid didn’t have any of the Australo-Melanesian, Andamanese-like component that exists in Amazonian Indians today.

The Andamanese appear representative of an early wave of anatomically modern humans that settled the coastline of the Indian Ocean, getting to New Guinea and Australia. This early wave may even have gone up the coast of East Asia.

Pretty much they were demographically stomped on by later races such as East Asians. Here and there in southeast Asia there are groups of small dark people living in remote places. And a lot of places in East Asia have legends of little black Old Ones who used to live here.

The Andamanese of North Sentinel Island have survived via violent xenophobia, such as shooting a National Geographic photographer in the leg with an arrow.

Here’s my 2002 interview with George H.J. Weber, founder of the Andaman Association and a hero of human biodiversity preservation for taking the lead in persuading the Indian government to stop trying to contact the North Sentinelese. (Contacted Andaman tribes on other islands typically experienced a big die off from pneumonia and other side effects of globalism.)

The Clovis-complex Anzick-1 skeleton from Montana, about 12.6k years old, was a member of the southern Amerindian branch – but it didn’t have any Andamanese-like component either.

So we’re saying that a Beringian population, pretty close to the common ancestors of the Northern and Southern Amerindians branches, didn’t have the Andaman-like admixture.

The Northern branch doesn’t seem to have it today.

Only some members of the Southern branch have it today: the earliest known sample from the southern population doesn’t have it.

Therefore the Southern branch (some of them) very likely picked it up after they left Beringia, also after they split with the northern branch. Which means it was already there before the Amerindians came down from Beringia. Probably in Brazil.

A couple of separate research groups have individually come up with this finding among Amerindians in Latin America.

Granted, there was some slave trade from the Philippines and other islands to Latin America, but this does not appear to be a post-1492 arrival. One estimate of the split-off data for the Australo-Melanesian component found here and there in South American Amerindians from other Australo-Melanesians is 4000 to 40,000 years ago.

It’s unlikely that the Australo-Melanesians arrived in the New World after the Amerindians, since they make up 2% of the ancestry of some tribes in Brazil. They haven’t done well in Asia competing against the distant relatives of Amerindians, so it would be implausible that they arrived in a populated New World and flourished against already well-established American Indian competitors.

So it seems like they must have got there first.

But how?

After all, it’s pretty hard to get from the Andaman Islands to Brazil even today by jet.

Screenshot 2018-01-07 00.32.57

 
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  1. There was a controversy around 1990 in the Black Hills. There was a proposal to give part of the Federal lands there to the Sioux tribes as the area was their “traditional” homeland.

    The Crow objected, saying that they had lived there before the Sioux migrated into the area from Minnesota and the eastern Dakotas. Then the Shoshone suddenly remembered that the Crow had forced them from those lands. At that point the whole thing was dropped.

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    • Replies: @Twodees Partain
    Funny, I thought that the Black Hills was recognized as Lakota lands in perpetuity in the 1868 Ft. Laramie Treaty.. Where would the USG get any lands in the Black Hills to give to the "Sioux Tribes"?
    , @Jim
    The Crow may have lived there before the Dakota but probably not for very long. The Siouian-Yuchi languages are spoken across a wide arc with the Black Hills being the extreme westernmost point of this range while the Yuchi of North Carolina is at the extreme eastern point and the Biloxi on the Gulf Coast are the most southern.

    However the Dakota have been in the Black Hills since the end of the eighteenth century.
    , @Charles Erwin Wilson II
    Agree.
    , @KenH
    That explodes the false narrative advanced by the handful of lefty trolls who periodically pop up here and claim that the Indians didn't fight, subjugate, enslave and displace one another.
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  2. Maybe they had the seafaring ability of the Polynesians at one point, but lost it.

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    • Replies: @Foreign Expert
    The trade winds blow east to west so that’s a tough slog. Not impossible but very tough in boats made of natural materials . The higher latitudes have west to east winds but that’s colder water. I think one of Magellan’s ships tried that but gave up.
    , @reiner Tor
    Or some freak occurrence, like how New World Monkeys got there.
    , @AnotherDad

    Maybe they had the seafaring ability of the Polynesians at one point, but lost it.
     
    A very small number of them made it across the Pacific on the Westerlies. (Much like the Polynesians later did.) They apparently did not get across the Darien gap, and were most ask-kicked when the Amer-Indians--better adapted, better toolkit--showed up a few thousand years later.
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  3. What’s his name….the Kon tiki guy…..he postulated Polynesians colonized South America and supposedly there’s genomic evidence to back thisup….

    Maybe a few Polynesian ships went adrift and hit the Continent and they mixed w the Indians and their ancestors moved to Brazil from the Pacific coast…..

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    • Replies: @gcochran
    The ancestry in question isn't Polynesian, isn't recent, and any Amerindian ancestry among Polynesians is recent, post-Columbian. As for Thor Heyerdahl, someone should dig up his bones.
    , @Logan
    Thor Heyerdahl didn't postulate that Polynesians colonized South America. He postulated that Polynesia was (first) colonized by South (and North) American Indians. He was wrong, but then he didn't have the linguistic and DNA evidence that showed his error.
    , @Wally
    "What’s his name….the Kon tiki guy…..he postulated Polynesians colonized South America and supposedly there’s genomic evidence to back thisup…."

    I thought it was the other way around, early Peruvians colonized Polynesia.

    There is strong physical evidence of that and currents do flow directly from Peru to Polynesia.

    , @The Only Catholic Unionist
    The Kon-Tiki guy is the late Thor Heyerdahl. Another, lesser-known figure was Eric de Bisschop, who actually managed to make a trip eastward, which would be more relevant to Mr. Sailer's line of inquiry. Unfortunately, it is my sense that marine archaeology doesn't have the capability to tell when such voyages were first possible in relation to human population of the Americas.
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  4. Thor Heyerdahl was unavailable for comment … as was Eric de Bisschop.

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  5. “But how?”

    My guess is the proto-Australoids were respectable enough seafarers:

    * They crossed over from Asia to Australia by sea. Granted, I know what is now Indonesia was largely connected to Asia and Papua New Guinea was attached to Australia (before the ice caps melted somewhat and raised the sea levels), but there was still a leap from one continental landmass to the other.

    * Cochran in his blog post says that the Australoids in America were probably fishermen, rather than the Beringians who were big game hunters.

    * Their black skin indicates they collected clams in the afternoon, and the black skin protected them. Bushmen would just take a siesta during the afternoon and hence had copper brown skin. If they spent time along the shore, it makes sense they would eventually adopt sea faring skills.

    As such, some Australoids probably went along the coasts of East Asia northward, and eventually reached Beringia, got the hell out, and went down the coast before reaching South America and settled there.

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    • Replies: @Clyde

    * Cochran in his blog post says that the Australoids in America were probably fishermen, rather than the Beringians who were big game hunters.
     
    Disabled fishing boats adrift and sent by winds and currents to South America. No women on these boats so there would have to be existing populations for the Andaman Islanders to reproduce. Or maybe they did have a woman or two on board for good luck?? To process fish? For sex like a temple prostitute?
    , @Jim
    They had to cross from the Celebes (now called Sulawezi or something like that) to New Guinea but at the height of the Ice Ages this was a narrow channel probably about one hundred miles across. Once this channel was crossed they could proceed on foot from New Guinea to all of Australia except for Tasmania where another ocean crossing was necessary. They also had to make short ocean crossings to get to the nearby Melanesian islands such as the Solomon Islands. These islands have been inhabited for at least 40,000 years. But there is no archaeological evidence of any inhabitation of the remote Pacific Islands before 1000 BC when Guam was settled by people from the Philippines. By the way the settlement of the Philippines also required an ocean crossing as those islands were never connected to the Asian mainland even at the height of the Ice Ages. There are small numbers of Negritos living in the Philippine jungles. So they came over the ocean although the ocean trip at the Ice Age maximum would have been a lot shorter than today.
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  6. Are we allowed to speculate on migration of the earlier settlers without being Nazis? Since only a white supremacist would say the various tribes aren’t native Americans, doesn’t that mean we have to think they simply sprouted just like native plants? Isn’t looking at DNA racist as well as cisgendered bigotry?

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  7. There is a body of Maori lore that holds that some of their ancients crossed the Pacific. It is not inconceivable that they might have been preceded by others of the region or that they themselves were the earlier peoples.

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    • Replies: @Jim
    The Maori came from Tahiti to New Zealand. This is known from a study of the relationships of Polynesian languages. The first islands inhabited by Polynesians were in Western Polynesian such as the Samoan islands. From here the Polynesians leaped forward to the Marquesas in Eastern Polynesia. The Marquesas were a secondary center of dispersion from which the Hawaiian Islands and Easter Island were settled. It was a back migration to the west from the Marquesas which settled Central Polynesia including Tahiti and then back form Tahiti to New Zealand. From New Zealand Chatham Island was settled which seems to have been the last place settled in Polynesia.
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  8. Oh I forgot to add….maybe the Polynesians had melanesian admixture…..

    That or perhaps theu had a melanesian wife or slave or something….

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    • Replies: @gcochran
    They do, about 20%.
    , @greysquirrell
    Maori are a mix of aboriginal Taiwanese and Melanesians. The Melanesian is on their paternal side.
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  9. Mound Builders are not who we are! Tear down these racist monuments!

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  10. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    “So it seems like they must have got there first

    But how?

    Following the coastline when it was a lot easier to cross from Siberia to Alaska, while living off the coastal zone?

    (They must have had some sea-going ability to reach Australia, so a complete land-bridge to the Americas isn’t necessary.)

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  11. Yes, there are examples of primitive societies regressing technologically. Evidently, Tasmanian aborigines lost the ability to catch and eat seafood and even start fires, after then last Ice Age.

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    • Replies: @Cortes
    Richard Rudgeley’s “Lost Civilisations of the Stone Age” discusses such regression. Not sure but I believe that the BBC made a series based on the book.
    , @Father O'Hara
    As Africans lost the ability to build flying craft.
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  12. @Dave Pinsen
    Maybe they had the seafaring ability of the Polynesians at one point, but lost it.

    The trade winds blow east to west so that’s a tough slog. Not impossible but very tough in boats made of natural materials . The higher latitudes have west to east winds but that’s colder water. I think one of Magellan’s ships tried that but gave up.

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    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    They succumbed to scurvy and were captured by the Portuguese, but the more northerly west-east route became the way the Spanish galleons made it back to Mexico from Manila.
    , @Jim
    There is a theory that migration against the prevailing winds is actually more likely than with them.
    The reason is that if you set out from west to east during the short intervals when the wind reversed you were pretty sure of being able to return if you found no land because such reversals did not last long and when the customary pattern returned you could come back safely. On the other hand if you left the coast of South America your chances of ever returning were slim. You must either find land or perish.
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  13. Land bridges in an ice age? It has to be either by sea or by land or a combination.

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    • Replies: @Cortes
    I have vague recollections of hearing about the possibility of groups crossing the North Atlantic east to west during the Ice Age exploiting hunting at the edge of the ice sheets.

    Ah, see for example:

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/new-evidence-suggests-stone-age-hunters-from-europe-discovered-america-7447152.html

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  14. Manly Wade Wellman (American pulp fantasy writer & contemporary of Robert E. Howard) in his Silver John stories and novels posited a furtive race of North Americans who predated the American Indians called the Shonokins, who serve as villains in many of his works. So once again, the old pulp writers more or less had it right.

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    • Replies: @Simon in London
    >>So once again, the old pulp writers more or less had it right.<<

    So much knowledge was lost as a result of WW2 and the triumph of Marxist ideology in academia, then in the general culture. In particular, knowledge of human nature.
    , @syonredux

    Shonokins: They are an ancient race, an aboriginal "people of the land" who went into hiding with the advent of man. But they are plotting their return. The Shonokins reason their takeover of the world because the humans aren't fit to run the Earth and it's time for the true caretakers to return to power. Humanoid in appearance except for a look of displacement from the modern world, cat-like eyes, and their index fingers are the longest on the hand. Usually they dress in dark hand made clothing and wear broad brimmed hats.
     
    http://www.manlywadewellman.com/Wellbeast.htm






    http://www.manlywadewellman.com/shonokin.JPG
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  15. In the same way in which they got to the Andamans, likely (i.e. using primitive boats, not over a land bridge).

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  16. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Here’s an interesting photo, circa 1900, of an Andamanese fishing boat and fishing party. Well, turtle hunting with those pretty big bows of theirs. It looks like anything you could hunt gigging would be easy game. The boat looks like something that could have been built 20,000(?) years ago:

    Group of Andaman Men and Women in Costume, Some Wearing Body Paint And with Bows and Arrows, Catching Turtles from Boat on Water, Smithsonian Institution, National Anthropological Archives, 1903 or earlier.

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  17. Once they crossed the Bering Strait into Alaska, it might have taken just one century to diffuse all the way down to South America.

    So from 40,000 BC to 39900 BC.

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  18. “So it seems like they must have got there first.

    But how??

    It seems plausible that they built boats and island hopped and some far-flung voyagers made it to South America. Whatever event got them that far afield (maybe they were driven by a storm or whatever) probably put them beyond their capability to go back, creating an isolated population. But obviously I’m speculating.

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  19. yes. and, they spent most of their time fishing. Fishing is best with no noise and activity.

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    • Replies: @Lagertha
    shit, Steve, this is a trick question: like duh, the Stone/Bronze age, and stuff! What I can suggest is; Denisovan people were spread out in the North. And you never tell other people about the best fishing spots.
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  20. Probably by boat from the Pacific Islands. After they reached the Americas, they probably switched over to living on land full time and didn’t have the population size and thus specialization to have some people maintain major seagoing ability.

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    • Replies: @Jim
    The earliest archaeological record of the inhabitation of the remote Pacific Islands is on Guam about 1000 BC. No archaeological evidence of any inhabitation of the remote Pacific islands prior to 1000 BC.
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  21. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Here’s an interesting factoid about the Andamanese (and Tasmanians) that might explain why related peoples might have had problems competing with the Beringians (or whoever they were):

    Andamanese:

    “…With the aboriginal people of Tasmania, the Andamanese were the one of only two peoples who in the nineteenth century knew of no method for making fire. They instead carefully preserved embers in hollowed-out trees from fires caused by lightning strikes.”

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  22. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    “‘It’s a war between the Jews and the non-Jews’: Henry Kissinger tells Wolff there was a growing rift in the White House between former Trump adviser Steve Bannon and Jared and Ivanka Trump”

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5242089/War-Jews-non-Jews-says-Kissinger.html

    ” Kissinger has said it’s an all-out war between Steve Bannon and the Kushners
    Michael Wolff makes the claim in ‘Fire and Fury: Inside the Trump White House’
    Bannon and Kushner allegedly became combative over their pro-Israel stances
    When Trump chose Kushner’s pick over Bannon’s for economic adviser, the rift began to grow
    Some analysts say the clash is between a Jewish-inflected moderate wing and a culturally non-Jewish hard core”

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  23. @Lagertha
    yes. and, they spent most of their time fishing. Fishing is best with no noise and activity.

    shit, Steve, this is a trick question: like duh, the Stone/Bronze age, and stuff! What I can suggest is; Denisovan people were spread out in the North. And you never tell other people about the best fishing spots.

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    • Replies: @Charles Erwin Wilson II

    And you never tell other people about the best fishing spots.
     
    Aren't you the flirtatious one? Is that one of the ways you enticed your husband?
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  24. “So it seems like they must have got there first.

    But how?”

    The Bering Strait, same way as the Amerindians? After all, if they got here first, and then gradually over time moved on, it would stand to reason that they wouldn’t have had a chance to interbreed with Amerindians. In other words they migrated the same way as the Amerindians but as they were the first peoples to arrive here, couldn’t have mated with other tribes and so moved on. The Amerindians also used the Bering Strait and over time migrated south.

    For some reason, it doesn’t appear that either group preferred to stay very long in Alaska.

    This of course would rest on the assumption that they migrated to the New World further back in time. And Alaska is a pretty big land mass. Perhaps one would have to keep digging further for the answers.

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    • Replies: @Jim
    Most of Alaska was ice-covered during the Ice Ages. You think it's cold there now.
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  25. What explains the lower test scores of Amerindian Asians versus East Asians?

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    • Replies: @Maj. Kong
    I think some have said that Confucian examinations increased the fertility and survivability of those that tested well.

    (Wild guess) The Amerind elite had a higher chance of intermarriage with the colonial Europeans than the lower classes. The Amerinds today have a lower IQ because of founder effect. My unscientifc opinion would also suggest malnutrition and drug abuse.

    http://thealternativehypothesis.org/index.php/2016/04/15/iqs-of-east-asians/
    , @Whitey Whiteman III
    Relatedly, is there a North-South IQ gradient with the various indigenous "indian" peoples?
    , @psmith
    Man, however it shakes out, this is pretty cool.

    Sailing across the Pacific 40,000 years ago to a new continent, I mean, Jesus. That's awesome.
    , @jb
    Amerindians and East Asians separated at least 15,000 years ago. A lot can happen in that amount of time, so I don't think there is any particular reason to expect that the cognitive abilities of the two groups would still be the same today.
    , @biz
    Simple. Amerindians never instituted a Confucian exam structure for social advancement.
    , @AnotherDad

    What explains the lower test scores of Amerindian Asians versus East Asians?
     
    We're talking 15,000 years--IQ isn't static. Modern whites are quite a bit smarter--and more conscientious--than our ancestors even a few thousand years ago. (Of course, that's in decline with the welfare state, but i mean at peak.)

    But if you want a simple answer: "the Neolithic".

    Since the Neolithic the selection pressures on various peoples have been radically different.

    , @Lucas McCrudy
    I used to wonder about that myself when I first became aware of the race/IQ issue.
    But then I read somewhere that Amerindians managed to escape the harsh climate that brought the mean IQ of East Asians to its present level of approx. 105 by migrating to the more benign environment of the Americas. Granted pre-Columbian Mesoamerica developed some pretty advanced civilizations so the present estimate for average Amerindian IQ is in the 87-89 range might seem hard to square, but "Maj. Kong's" theory that the smart Indians generally bred out with the Spanish conquistadors might explain something.
    But keep in mind it was the Spanish who conquered the Aztecs and not the other way around so I wouldn't be surprised if Amerindians were less brainy (on average) that both Europeans and their distant Asian cousins.
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  26. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    The first wave of Australian aborigines – apparently related to the Andamanese – managed to cross the Lombok Strait (aka Wallace Line) about 40,000 years ago.

    The Lombok Strait is about 12 miles of deep water and apparently was never bridged during during this period.

    At a minimum, the Australians must have had rafts. The question then becomes whether they could have used similar techniques to get to America, perhaps across the Bering Strait.

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  27. Ancient Asians made it from Indonesia to Madagascar.

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    • Replies: @gcochran
    Relatively recent, something like a thousand years ago.
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  28. I like haplogroup X2a.

    Found in American Indians around the Great Lakes and in the Druze around the Sea of Galilee.

    What it means, I don’t know.

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    • Replies: @wren
    http://x2a-mtdna.blogspot.com

    Lots of speculation here.
    , @Logan
    Joseph Smith was right?
    , @Crawfurdmuir

    I like haplogroup X2a.

    Found in American Indians around the Great Lakes and in the Druze around the Sea of Galilee.
     
    There is a claim that the ancient Phoenicians knew of North America and traveled down the St. Lawrence River into Lake Huron, landing in what is now the upper peninsula of Michigan, where they mined copper. This might account for the presence of a haplogroup both in the Levant and around the Great Lakes
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  29. @Dave Pinsen
    Maybe they had the seafaring ability of the Polynesians at one point, but lost it.

    Or some freak occurrence, like how New World Monkeys got there.

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  30. @wren
    I like haplogroup X2a.

    Found in American Indians around the Great Lakes and in the Druze around the Sea of Galilee.

    What it means, I don't know.

    http://x2a-mtdna.blogspot.com

    Lots of speculation here.

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  31. Another thought is maybe they used the same route as the Indians, but earlier. Then they got totally wiped out in North America, but there was some admixture in South America. For example it appears that Homo sapiens sapiens exterminated Neanderthals in Europe without admixture. Our Neanderthal ancestry is from another, earlier, admixture event in the Middle East.

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    • Replies: @Amasius
    What if there's a connection with the negro-looking Olmec heads? Maybe they wuz kangz in Mesoamerica before getting overwhelmed.
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  32. @Anonymous
    What explains the lower test scores of Amerindian Asians versus East Asians?

    I think some have said that Confucian examinations increased the fertility and survivability of those that tested well.

    (Wild guess) The Amerind elite had a higher chance of intermarriage with the colonial Europeans than the lower classes. The Amerinds today have a lower IQ because of founder effect. My unscientifc opinion would also suggest malnutrition and drug abuse.

    http://thealternativehypothesis.org/index.php/2016/04/15/iqs-of-east-asians/

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    • Replies: @songbird
    There was a conquistador that married an Incan princess, like all Incan princesses the child of a brother-sister union, likely even multiple such unions, one at each generation.

    The Maya and Aztecs appear to have had god-kings too. They built large pyramids, somewhat like the Egyptians. And may have practiced incest like them, though it is never mentioned. It may have been an extinct custom at the time of contact.

    Of course, I am probably being too fanciful. The real elites were probably the priests, and perhaps the incest damage would have been bred out over hundreds of years anyway. Besides, the Japanese had god-kings and we know they are no dummies.
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  33. So it seems like they must have got there first.
    But how?

    Many tend to fixate on how people could have crossed the Pacific and then the Andes, or got around Tierra del Fuego, but traveling west with the worldwide ocean conveyor belt might have been the natural way. Surface currents could carry a seafaring people from Australasia to South America by going across the Indian Ocean and around the Cape of Good Hope. Natural landfall would seem to be the region of present-day Brazil.
    In the East Timor area, Susan O’Connor of the Australian National University has discovered ancient fish hooks dated to 16,000 years BP, and bone middens of such pelagic fish as tuna that date to 42,000 years BP. Fish hooks dating to 23,000 years BP have been found in southern Okinawa.
    Here’s an article from Science about the Timor finds. And here’s a report on the Okinawa discovery.

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    • Replies: @Perspective
    It's certainly plausible a seafaring people could have traveled from Australasia to modern Brazil, though I would imagine there would have to have been some event that caused this to happen with regular frequency 40k (?) years a go to establish a population base. It would explain why no traces (so far, anyway) of Andamanese remains or dna have been found outside of that region.
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  34. @Foreign Expert
    The trade winds blow east to west so that’s a tough slog. Not impossible but very tough in boats made of natural materials . The higher latitudes have west to east winds but that’s colder water. I think one of Magellan’s ships tried that but gave up.

    They succumbed to scurvy and were captured by the Portuguese, but the more northerly west-east route became the way the Spanish galleons made it back to Mexico from Manila.

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  35. Steve, is that saved location on the posted map the city of Mirpur?

    Read More
    • Replies: @YetAnotherAnon
    Surely more likely to be Port Blair, the only airport AFAIK in the Andamans. Big (dot) Indian tourist place these days.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_Blair

    Interesting that they've kept the Brit colonial name, perhaps because they'd have to make it an Andaman tribal name (or perhaps a Chola Empire one, or maybe even a Danish Empire one - amazing who's been there over the years).

    PS - anyone know what if any genetic work's been done on Dorset remains, the "original" Eskimos/Skraelings? Who were they related to? Or are the only remains artefacts?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorset_culture

    , @PiltdownMan
    Mirpur, in the Pakistan part of the state of Kashmir, is about 2,000 miles away from Port Blair, in the Andaman Islands.
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  36. @reiner Tor
    Another thought is maybe they used the same route as the Indians, but earlier. Then they got totally wiped out in North America, but there was some admixture in South America. For example it appears that Homo sapiens sapiens exterminated Neanderthals in Europe without admixture. Our Neanderthal ancestry is from another, earlier, admixture event in the Middle East.

    What if there’s a connection with the negro-looking Olmec heads? Maybe they wuz kangz in Mesoamerica before getting overwhelmed.

    Read More
    • Replies: @JIm
    Olmec culture is very similar to Mayan culture. They had writing but unfortunately their writing has never been deciphered so we don't know whether their language was related to Mayan languages. Olmec culture by the way is first millennium BC.
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  37. That photo shot is from an Amazon (the rainforest, not the online retailer) uncontacted tribe, taken in 2008.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/10/world/americas/brazil-amazon-tribe-killings.html

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Thanks.
    , @Steve Sailer
    Thanks.
    , @Achmed E. Newman
    (First of all, my curiousity overrode my utter distain for the NY Times - and rest of the Lyin' Press - 1st time in a number of years I clicked over to them, on purpose.)

    I hadn't known there were still people in this world who have never met anyone from the modern age. That is amazing, and I can see where that'd be an extremely interesting area of anthropology (especially in this age of tiny cameras and transmitters).

    Three of those bases were in the Javari Valley, which is known as the Uncontacted Frontier and is believed to be home to more uncontacted tribes than anywhere else on Earth. Approximately 20 of the 103 uncontacted tribes registered in Brazil are in the Valley.
     
    Yes, these indigenous people are indeed very niaive. Natives, I implore you, DON'T REGISTER FOR ANYTHING! (that's why I like unz.com). Please don't tell me you gave National Geographic your email addresses. Oh, you poor naive bastards. You will not remain uncontacted for long.

    #SAVE THE UNCONTACTED!, [email protected]_uncontacted.lost

    -or- to send donations to the poor uncontacted tribes via lunch snail-mail:

    Uncontacted Tribes, LLC
    P.O. Box 1° 15.2' N 58° 36.5' W
    Javari Valley, Brazil

    -or- you may send bitcoin or snakeskins via Western Union.
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  38. More like 2% of the ancestry of some Amazonian tribes. Clearly there though.

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  39. @Neoconned
    What's his name....the Kon tiki guy.....he postulated Polynesians colonized South America and supposedly there's genomic evidence to back thisup....

    Maybe a few Polynesian ships went adrift and hit the Continent and they mixed w the Indians and their ancestors moved to Brazil from the Pacific coast.....

    The ancestry in question isn’t Polynesian, isn’t recent, and any Amerindian ancestry among Polynesians is recent, post-Columbian. As for Thor Heyerdahl, someone should dig up his bones.

    Read More
    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    What do you think of these people going from Northeast Asia to Alaska and that way reaching South America along the coast line? Then getting wiped out in North America without admixture, but in South America with admixture. Getting exterminated without admixture seems possible to me, because - correct me if I’m wrong - Neanderthals also got exterminated without admixture in Europe. I think I read on your blog (or maybe in your book?) that our Neanderthal ancestry originated from another, earlier, admixture event* in the Middle East.

    *I’ve always felt sorry for my ancestor who screwed that Neanderthal woman, he must have been desperate, but without it the apex of evolution (yours truly) wouldn’t be around.
    , @Inquiring Mind
    I have never figured out how Mr. Heyerdahl fits with the good thinking establishment.

    He was lionized as a Great Explorer by National Geographic and other august institutions as a latter-day Amundsen, but actual scholars of the settlement of Polynesia regarded him as a quack and a crank.

    What motivated the Kon Tiki expedition is his time spent in Tahiti where he observed the prevailing winds and ocean currents going in the other direction from Taiwan, where at least DNA studies indicate the Polynesians came from. Heyerdahl formed the theory that the Siberians/Beringians who crossed from modern day Russia to Alaska navigated their way down to Chile and then "hung a right" to head westward to Rapa Nui (Easter Island) to make their way to Tahiti. His gang of merry Norwegians on the balsa wood cork Kon Tiki were to show how the proto-Polynesians could bob their way westward until they made landfall, taking however long it needed because they could "live off the ocean" as Heyerdahls crew did getting their nutrition and hydration from the fish they could catch.

    Besides the genetic evidence going against Heyerdahl, didn't the Polynesians have advanced sailing tech in the form of outrigger or catamaran boats with keels and fins that allowed them to "tack" up wind? Far from being Kon Tiki rafts, their rigs would be competitive in America's Cup were they not banned for features that would be considered cheating?

    Heyerdahl also appealed to legends of lost tribes of blue-eyed peoples among both the South Americans as well as Polynesians? Supporting conjectures that other races crossed from Siberia oer into the Americas along with the proto-Indians?

    , @Weaver1
    What about Easter Island? And Heyerdahl wasn't arguing "Amerindian DNA" exactly. He was arguing for a significantly different hybrid DNA traveling from South America to Easter Island. Look up his Ra Expeditions book. I just posted 2 more lengthy posts on this here, so I assume it would be rude for me to comment further. Heyerdahl provides other evidence, and there wouldn't be much needed genetic evidence to support his theory of a small population of white bearded men traveling over from Egypt.

    If you have trouble locating a copy of Ra Expeditions, I can send you my copy. I bought it used on Amazon for about a dollar.

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  40. @Neoconned
    Oh I forgot to add....maybe the Polynesians had melanesian admixture.....

    That or perhaps theu had a melanesian wife or slave or something....

    They do, about 20%.

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    • Replies: @Neoconned
    http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2014/10/epic-pre-columbian-voyage-suggested-genes

    Are you familiar w this?
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  41. @Flip
    Ancient Asians made it from Indonesia to Madagascar.

    Relatively recent, something like a thousand years ago.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Still mind-boggling. Whether it was 1000 or 20000 years ago, where the hell did they get water from? Kon-Tiki took off with literally a ton of drinking water.
    , @Jim
    It's astonishing how similar Malagasy is to other Malayo-Polynesian languages. Following is a comparison of the numerals in Malagasy and Tagalog -


    Malagasy Tagalog

    one isa isa
    two roa dulawa
    three telo tulo
    four efatra apat
    five dimy lima
    six enina anim
    seven fito pito
    eight valo walo
    nine sivy siyam


    Note that rua and lua are common words for two in many Polynesian languages. Clearly the dispersion of the Malayo-Polynesian speakers has been very recent leaving little time for linguistic divergence.
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  42. @gcochran
    The ancestry in question isn't Polynesian, isn't recent, and any Amerindian ancestry among Polynesians is recent, post-Columbian. As for Thor Heyerdahl, someone should dig up his bones.

    What do you think of these people going from Northeast Asia to Alaska and that way reaching South America along the coast line? Then getting wiped out in North America without admixture, but in South America with admixture. Getting exterminated without admixture seems possible to me, because – correct me if I’m wrong – Neanderthals also got exterminated without admixture in Europe. I think I read on your blog (or maybe in your book?) that our Neanderthal ancestry originated from another, earlier, admixture event* in the Middle East.

    *I’ve always felt sorry for my ancestor who screwed that Neanderthal woman, he must have been desperate, but without it the apex of evolution (yours truly) wouldn’t be around.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Whoever

    I’ve always felt sorry for my ancestor who screwed that Neanderthal woman
     
    More likely it was a Neanderthal Romeo and Sapiens Juliet pairing:

    "Could it be that Homo neanderthalensis males were able to mate with Homo sapiens females but that the reciprocal cross was unsuccessful? Alternatively, were male H.sapiens disastrously incapable of wooing the physically more powerful H.neanderthalensis females? Or were H.neanderthalensis females simply unable to give birth to hybrid offspring? Perhaps male H.neanderthalensis outcompeted early male H.sapiens and eventually the male Neanderthal genes gained dominance (and maybe H.sapiens females somehow out-competed H.neanderthalensis females for partners)."

    In other words, those ancient human skeezers were cave sharks -- oh, the humanity!

    Of course, it's more complicated than that:

    "While we know that humans and Neanderthals bred, we have no way of knowing what the possible social or cultural contexts for such breeding would have been."

    https://i.imgur.com/A7QQyVK.jpg

    , @songbird
    Has to have been at least one admixture event within Europe. They found a weird skull in Romania and sequenced the DNA. Don't know if we got any of that though.
    , @ThreeCranes
    I think--and from perusing many of the comments I surmise that I may be the most knowledgeable seafarer posting here--that you're right. Even today kayakers--some even in skin (polyester that is) covered replicas of primitive boats--regularly make the trip down from Juneau to Seattle. In other words, crossing from Russia to Alaska is doable in primitive craft. Crossing the Pacific isn't.

    Early humans hugged the coasts whenever possible. Imagine how difficult it was to cross wild country--bushwhacking through thick forest over mountains. Didn't happen that way. Look at what we do know; all early settlement by whites on the East coast, in California, Washington etc. was by way of traveling up rivers and it is far easier to cross a river by boat than to swim, especially with your family and cultural artifacts in tow. Civilization has always followed the coasts and rivers.

    Some of you disparage Heyerdahl but you miss the main point. What he was mainly interested in proving was that early Man was a much better seafarer than we give him credit for. For this he was then, just as today, ridiculed by too many armchair anthropologists who were and are limited by their experience and can only conceive of traveling from the comfort of an automobile, blithely crossing rivers and mountains as though they were no obstacle at all.

    By voyaging in a primitive craft he was first and foremost trying to shake anthropologists out of their "dogmatic slumber"; to demonstrate in no uncertain terms that early people had such capabilities. Everything else was secondary.
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  43. @adreadline
    That photo shot is from an Amazon (the rainforest, not the online retailer) uncontacted tribe, taken in 2008.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/10/world/americas/brazil-amazon-tribe-killings.html

    Thanks.

    Read More
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  44. @adreadline
    That photo shot is from an Amazon (the rainforest, not the online retailer) uncontacted tribe, taken in 2008.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/10/world/americas/brazil-amazon-tribe-killings.html

    Thanks.

    Read More
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  45. Didn’t Thor Heyerdahl try to demonstrate this, back in the fifties, with his Kon Tiki raft?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Logan
    Joseph Smith was right?
    , @dearieme
    TH tried to support the opposite hypothesis, that the Polynesians originated in South America and from there settled the Pacific. He was wrong. He was also a cheat: his raft couldn't get to sea successfully because of the strong coastal current so he took a tow until he was free from it.
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  46. @Earl Lemongrab
    Manly Wade Wellman (American pulp fantasy writer & contemporary of Robert E. Howard) in his Silver John stories and novels posited a furtive race of North Americans who predated the American Indians called the Shonokins, who serve as villains in many of his works. So once again, the old pulp writers more or less had it right.

    >>So once again, the old pulp writers more or less had it right.<<

    So much knowledge was lost as a result of WW2 and the triumph of Marxist ideology in academia, then in the general culture. In particular, knowledge of human nature.

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  47. @reiner Tor
    What do you think of these people going from Northeast Asia to Alaska and that way reaching South America along the coast line? Then getting wiped out in North America without admixture, but in South America with admixture. Getting exterminated without admixture seems possible to me, because - correct me if I’m wrong - Neanderthals also got exterminated without admixture in Europe. I think I read on your blog (or maybe in your book?) that our Neanderthal ancestry originated from another, earlier, admixture event* in the Middle East.

    *I’ve always felt sorry for my ancestor who screwed that Neanderthal woman, he must have been desperate, but without it the apex of evolution (yours truly) wouldn’t be around.

    I’ve always felt sorry for my ancestor who screwed that Neanderthal woman

    More likely it was a Neanderthal Romeo and Sapiens Juliet pairing:

    “Could it be that Homo neanderthalensis males were able to mate with Homo sapiens females but that the reciprocal cross was unsuccessful? Alternatively, were male H.sapiens disastrously incapable of wooing the physically more powerful H.neanderthalensis females? Or were H.neanderthalensis females simply unable to give birth to hybrid offspring? Perhaps male H.neanderthalensis outcompeted early male H.sapiens and eventually the male Neanderthal genes gained dominance (and maybe H.sapiens females somehow out-competed H.neanderthalensis females for partners).”

    In other words, those ancient human skeezers were cave sharks — oh, the humanity!

    Of course, it’s more complicated than that:

    “While we know that humans and Neanderthals bred, we have no way of knowing what the possible social or cultural contexts for such breeding would have been.”

    Read More
    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    Well, the offspring must have somehow become members of the sapiens tribe. Or else there’d be no sign in our own DNA. This is unlikely with a Neanderthal Romeo. Or at least that’s what I always thought. But now that I think of it, was it maybe a result of a rape? And the relatives of the woman accepted the resulting baby as their own?

    Your other argument (the relative recent date for the Y Adam) is unconvincing. Y Chromosome Adam was expected to be much more recent than Mitochondrial Eve.
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  48. I’m sure that the idea that the main ancestrial line of native Americans came in and killed or enslaved a preexisting group will be relegated to the taboo/no-platform file, just as the coincidence of the sudden extinction of a few dozen megafauna (New World horses, camels, ancient bison, the giant beaver, a giant tortoise, giant birds, ground sloths, and the hippo-like animal the Mixotoxodon) around the time of their arrival has been has been ignored as racist against Native Americans, who only killed for necessity, prayed for the animal’s soul, used the entire animal, and had no word for “war.”

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  49. @hackberry
    Steve, is that saved location on the posted map the city of Mirpur?

    Surely more likely to be Port Blair, the only airport AFAIK in the Andamans. Big (dot) Indian tourist place these days.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_Blair

    Interesting that they’ve kept the Brit colonial name, perhaps because they’d have to make it an Andaman tribal name (or perhaps a Chola Empire one, or maybe even a Danish Empire one – amazing who’s been there over the years).

    PS – anyone know what if any genetic work’s been done on Dorset remains, the “original” Eskimos/Skraelings? Who were they related to? Or are the only remains artefacts?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorset_culture

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    I also was wondering if these extinct Beringians are related to the extinct Dorsets, both of the far northern new world.
    , @PiltdownMan

    Surely more likely to be Port Blair, the only airport AFAIK in the Andamans. Big (dot) Indian tourist place these days.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_Blair

    Interesting that they’ve kept the Brit colonial name...
     
    There are a few places in India that still retain British names. Wellington, in the southern part of the country, is where they have their military staff college.
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  50. @YetAnotherAnon
    Surely more likely to be Port Blair, the only airport AFAIK in the Andamans. Big (dot) Indian tourist place these days.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_Blair

    Interesting that they've kept the Brit colonial name, perhaps because they'd have to make it an Andaman tribal name (or perhaps a Chola Empire one, or maybe even a Danish Empire one - amazing who's been there over the years).

    PS - anyone know what if any genetic work's been done on Dorset remains, the "original" Eskimos/Skraelings? Who were they related to? Or are the only remains artefacts?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorset_culture

    I also was wondering if these extinct Beringians are related to the extinct Dorsets, both of the far northern new world.

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  51. @Whoever

    I’ve always felt sorry for my ancestor who screwed that Neanderthal woman
     
    More likely it was a Neanderthal Romeo and Sapiens Juliet pairing:

    "Could it be that Homo neanderthalensis males were able to mate with Homo sapiens females but that the reciprocal cross was unsuccessful? Alternatively, were male H.sapiens disastrously incapable of wooing the physically more powerful H.neanderthalensis females? Or were H.neanderthalensis females simply unable to give birth to hybrid offspring? Perhaps male H.neanderthalensis outcompeted early male H.sapiens and eventually the male Neanderthal genes gained dominance (and maybe H.sapiens females somehow out-competed H.neanderthalensis females for partners)."

    In other words, those ancient human skeezers were cave sharks -- oh, the humanity!

    Of course, it's more complicated than that:

    "While we know that humans and Neanderthals bred, we have no way of knowing what the possible social or cultural contexts for such breeding would have been."

    https://i.imgur.com/A7QQyVK.jpg

    Well, the offspring must have somehow become members of the sapiens tribe. Or else there’d be no sign in our own DNA. This is unlikely with a Neanderthal Romeo. Or at least that’s what I always thought. But now that I think of it, was it maybe a result of a rape? And the relatives of the woman accepted the resulting baby as their own?

    Your other argument (the relative recent date for the Y Adam) is unconvincing. Y Chromosome Adam was expected to be much more recent than Mitochondrial Eve.

    Read More
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  52. @adreadline
    That photo shot is from an Amazon (the rainforest, not the online retailer) uncontacted tribe, taken in 2008.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/10/world/americas/brazil-amazon-tribe-killings.html

    (First of all, my curiousity overrode my utter distain for the NY Times – and rest of the Lyin’ Press – 1st time in a number of years I clicked over to them, on purpose.)

    I hadn’t known there were still people in this world who have never met anyone from the modern age. That is amazing, and I can see where that’d be an extremely interesting area of anthropology (especially in this age of tiny cameras and transmitters).

    Three of those bases were in the Javari Valley, which is known as the Uncontacted Frontier and is believed to be home to more uncontacted tribes than anywhere else on Earth. Approximately 20 of the 103 uncontacted tribes registered in Brazil are in the Valley.

    Yes, these indigenous people are indeed very niaive. Natives, I implore you, DON’T REGISTER FOR ANYTHING! (that’s why I like unz.com). Please don’t tell me you gave National Geographic your email addresses. Oh, you poor naive bastards. You will not remain uncontacted for long.

    #SAVE THE UNCONTACTED!, [email protected]_uncontacted.lost

    -or- to send donations to the poor uncontacted tribes via lunch snail-mail:

    Uncontacted Tribes, LLC
    P.O. Box 1° 15.2′ N 58° 36.5′ W
    Javari Valley, Brazil

    -or- you may send bitcoin or snakeskins via Western Union.

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  53. What kind of creep would hire a bunch of vicious Asians to do his opposition research? I wonder why no one else has noticed.

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  54. The inuit (what used to be known as eskimo) in the arctic are known to be recent arrivals, having arrived around the same time that the vikings settled greenland. They replaced a previous culture known as the dorset. The dorset were completely unrelated and were wiped out so thoroughly that we cannot even find a genetic trace of them in any current inuit population.

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  55. @Sid
    "But how?"

    My guess is the proto-Australoids were respectable enough seafarers:

    * They crossed over from Asia to Australia by sea. Granted, I know what is now Indonesia was largely connected to Asia and Papua New Guinea was attached to Australia (before the ice caps melted somewhat and raised the sea levels), but there was still a leap from one continental landmass to the other.

    * Cochran in his blog post says that the Australoids in America were probably fishermen, rather than the Beringians who were big game hunters.

    * Their black skin indicates they collected clams in the afternoon, and the black skin protected them. Bushmen would just take a siesta during the afternoon and hence had copper brown skin. If they spent time along the shore, it makes sense they would eventually adopt sea faring skills.

    As such, some Australoids probably went along the coasts of East Asia northward, and eventually reached Beringia, got the hell out, and went down the coast before reaching South America and settled there.

    * Cochran in his blog post says that the Australoids in America were probably fishermen, rather than the Beringians who were big game hunters.

    Disabled fishing boats adrift and sent by winds and currents to South America. No women on these boats so there would have to be existing populations for the Andaman Islanders to reproduce. Or maybe they did have a woman or two on board for good luck?? To process fish? For sex like a temple prostitute?

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  56. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Why does the narration in the video about the islanders sound robotic? Listen for the unnatural rhythm and pitch, especially at the end of sentences.

    I recall noticing this before with other British* documentary TV clips. And now that I think about it, didn’t Monty Python used to mock this?

    ——-

    *Or would that be English? Navigating that distinction is another point of ignorance for me.

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    • Replies: @Mark Spahn (West Seneca, NY)
    "Why does the narration in the video about the islanders sound robotic? Listen for the unnatural rhythm and pitch, especially at the end of sentences."

    The cadence and transitional pitch contours of the narration are unnatural, evidence that this narration is the output of text-to-voice software in which the option "male, British" was chosen. This robotic speech is unpleasant and requires the listener's full attention. (For one example, at 3:45 is something that sounds like "A K A B tribesmen".) Why do video producers use such listener-burdening text-to-voice robot narration? Is it a matter of cost?
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  57. This story has been around for quite some time. Fuegan Indians were alleged to have some Aboriginal ancestry. Also a remote site near Cuiaba, Brazil was held to contain Aboriginal skeletons. The BBC even made a programme about it.
    The only problem is that Australian Aborigines have no seafaring tradition and Papuans little better.
    Postulating a connection with the Philippines and negritos seems a better bet.

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  58. “But how?”

    The aliens that helped them draw the Nazca lines. Duh.

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  59. @Maj. Kong
    I think some have said that Confucian examinations increased the fertility and survivability of those that tested well.

    (Wild guess) The Amerind elite had a higher chance of intermarriage with the colonial Europeans than the lower classes. The Amerinds today have a lower IQ because of founder effect. My unscientifc opinion would also suggest malnutrition and drug abuse.

    http://thealternativehypothesis.org/index.php/2016/04/15/iqs-of-east-asians/

    There was a conquistador that married an Incan princess, like all Incan princesses the child of a brother-sister union, likely even multiple such unions, one at each generation.

    The Maya and Aztecs appear to have had god-kings too. They built large pyramids, somewhat like the Egyptians. And may have practiced incest like them, though it is never mentioned. It may have been an extinct custom at the time of contact.

    Of course, I am probably being too fanciful. The real elites were probably the priests, and perhaps the incest damage would have been bred out over hundreds of years anyway. Besides, the Japanese had god-kings and we know they are no dummies.

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  60. @Neoconned
    What's his name....the Kon tiki guy.....he postulated Polynesians colonized South America and supposedly there's genomic evidence to back thisup....

    Maybe a few Polynesian ships went adrift and hit the Continent and they mixed w the Indians and their ancestors moved to Brazil from the Pacific coast.....

    Thor Heyerdahl didn’t postulate that Polynesians colonized South America. He postulated that Polynesia was (first) colonized by South (and North) American Indians. He was wrong, but then he didn’t have the linguistic and DNA evidence that showed his error.

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    • Replies: @Eagle Eye

    Thor Heyerdahl ... postulated that Polynesia was (first) colonized by South (and North) American Indians. He was wrong, ...
     
    Heyerdahl may have been correct with respect to Easter Island where there were separate South American Indian and Polynesian populations may have coexisted in pre-European times.
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  61. @reiner Tor
    What do you think of these people going from Northeast Asia to Alaska and that way reaching South America along the coast line? Then getting wiped out in North America without admixture, but in South America with admixture. Getting exterminated without admixture seems possible to me, because - correct me if I’m wrong - Neanderthals also got exterminated without admixture in Europe. I think I read on your blog (or maybe in your book?) that our Neanderthal ancestry originated from another, earlier, admixture event* in the Middle East.

    *I’ve always felt sorry for my ancestor who screwed that Neanderthal woman, he must have been desperate, but without it the apex of evolution (yours truly) wouldn’t be around.

    Has to have been at least one admixture event within Europe. They found a weird skull in Romania and sequenced the DNA. Don’t know if we got any of that though.

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  62. @wren
    I like haplogroup X2a.

    Found in American Indians around the Great Lakes and in the Druze around the Sea of Galilee.

    What it means, I don't know.

    Joseph Smith was right?

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    • LOL: Alden
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  63. @Anonymous
    Didn't Thor Heyerdahl try to demonstrate this, back in the fifties, with his Kon Tiki raft?

    Joseph Smith was right?

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    • Replies: @stillCARealist
    Love it. People who live near lakes and fish a lot have similar genes.

    People who play basketball likely all have similar height genes; doesn't mean they're related.
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  64. @Whoever

    So it seems like they must have got there first.
    But how?
     
    Many tend to fixate on how people could have crossed the Pacific and then the Andes, or got around Tierra del Fuego, but traveling west with the worldwide ocean conveyor belt might have been the natural way. Surface currents could carry a seafaring people from Australasia to South America by going across the Indian Ocean and around the Cape of Good Hope. Natural landfall would seem to be the region of present-day Brazil.
    In the East Timor area, Susan O'Connor of the Australian National University has discovered ancient fish hooks dated to 16,000 years BP, and bone middens of such pelagic fish as tuna that date to 42,000 years BP. Fish hooks dating to 23,000 years BP have been found in southern Okinawa.
    Here's an article from Science about the Timor finds. And here's a report on the Okinawa discovery.
    https://i.imgur.com/fyA7jSN.gif

    It’s certainly plausible a seafaring people could have traveled from Australasia to modern Brazil, though I would imagine there would have to have been some event that caused this to happen with regular frequency 40k (?) years a go to establish a population base. It would explain why no traces (so far, anyway) of Andamanese remains or dna have been found outside of that region.

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  65. @gcochran
    The ancestry in question isn't Polynesian, isn't recent, and any Amerindian ancestry among Polynesians is recent, post-Columbian. As for Thor Heyerdahl, someone should dig up his bones.

    I have never figured out how Mr. Heyerdahl fits with the good thinking establishment.

    He was lionized as a Great Explorer by National Geographic and other august institutions as a latter-day Amundsen, but actual scholars of the settlement of Polynesia regarded him as a quack and a crank.

    What motivated the Kon Tiki expedition is his time spent in Tahiti where he observed the prevailing winds and ocean currents going in the other direction from Taiwan, where at least DNA studies indicate the Polynesians came from. Heyerdahl formed the theory that the Siberians/Beringians who crossed from modern day Russia to Alaska navigated their way down to Chile and then “hung a right” to head westward to Rapa Nui (Easter Island) to make their way to Tahiti. His gang of merry Norwegians on the balsa wood cork Kon Tiki were to show how the proto-Polynesians could bob their way westward until they made landfall, taking however long it needed because they could “live off the ocean” as Heyerdahls crew did getting their nutrition and hydration from the fish they could catch.

    Besides the genetic evidence going against Heyerdahl, didn’t the Polynesians have advanced sailing tech in the form of outrigger or catamaran boats with keels and fins that allowed them to “tack” up wind? Far from being Kon Tiki rafts, their rigs would be competitive in America’s Cup were they not banned for features that would be considered cheating?

    Heyerdahl also appealed to legends of lost tribes of blue-eyed peoples among both the South Americans as well as Polynesians? Supporting conjectures that other races crossed from Siberia oer into the Americas along with the proto-Indians?

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    • Replies: @Jim
    And of course he totally ignored the linguistic evidence. There is no resemblance between Malayo-Polynesian languages and the languages of the Americas. One very notable feature of the Malayo-Polynesian languages is how similar they are. Even the resemblances between Malagasy spoken in Madagascar and Hawaiian spoken virtually at the antipode are pretty clear. This indicates that the Malayo-Polynesian languages were spread very quickly. The greatest number of languages and by far the greatest populations are in Indonesia and the Philippines which are at the geographical center of the Malayo-Polynesian languages. Obviously that's where the Malayo-Polynesians came from.

    Of course ultimately the entire Austronesian language family came from Taiwan. Of the more than one dozen branches of Austronesian languages only one - the Malayo-Polynesian branch - is found outside Taiwan.
    , @Weaver1
    You need to read the Ra Expeditions to more completely understand Heyerdahl. It's about white bearded men sailing on reed ships from Egypt.

    And he sails over on a reed ship constructed by present-day Amerindians based partly on Egyptian pictures. He tried on a reed ship constructed by Africans from Lake Chad, but the tech had been partly lost there. The Amerindian reed ship technology was still good.

    Heyerdahl praised his ship, claiming it functioned very well far away from the coast. He complained about pollution and modern conflicts.

    -

    Kon-Tiki is best understood as including the descendants of these same white bearded men, though not pure-blooded descendants.
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  66. There was this related story that made news when an outsider impregnated a Jarawa woman:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/12194701/Death-of-fair-skinned-child-among-Jarawa-tribe-leaves-Indian-police-puzzled.html

    The murder of a five-month-old infant on a remote Indian Ocean island has left police at a loss and triggered a debate over the rule of law among one of the world’s most primitive tribes.

    The crime took place among the Jarawa, a group of around 400 nomadic hunter-gatherers who live in the Andaman Island archipelago, protected from contact with the outside world by Indian law.

    Because the baby was fair skinned, it was assumed he had been fathered by an outsider, and killed according to a ritual custom of the tribe.

    In the past Indian authorities, who seek to interfere as little as possible with the aboriginal culture, have turned a blind eye to such incidents.

    Indeed, in the 200 years since British settlers arrived to set up a penal colony on the island, no Jarawa tribesman has even been named as a suspect in a crime.

    But police launched an investigation after government workers charged with the tribe’s welfare filed a criminal complaint in which they identified the role of two non-tribal men, the New York Times reported.

    • India stops ‘human safaris’ of Jarawa tribe

    Both are from the island’s large Bangladeshi refugee community, and have now been arrested.

    One of those is accused of plying the alleged Jarawa murderer with alcohol before convincing him to kill the young boy.

    The other is accused of fathering the murdered infant with a tribal woman. It is believed he could have faced retribution from either the Jarawa, or his own community, had his actions been discovered.

    Meanwhile, the Jarawa man, who was seen by two witnesses entering the mother’s tent the night before the boy was found drowned, continues to walk free.

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  67. According to the Cherokees’ own legends, white people were there before them.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moon-eyed_people

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  68. @Anonymous
    What explains the lower test scores of Amerindian Asians versus East Asians?

    Relatedly, is there a North-South IQ gradient with the various indigenous “indian” peoples?

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  69. @Anonymous
    What explains the lower test scores of Amerindian Asians versus East Asians?

    Man, however it shakes out, this is pretty cool.

    Sailing across the Pacific 40,000 years ago to a new continent, I mean, Jesus. That’s awesome.

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    • Replies: @psmith
    Whoops, this was supposed to be a standalone comment.

    (Though if I had to hazard a guess at the parent comment's question, something to do with intensity of agriculture?)
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  70. @Anonymous
    What explains the lower test scores of Amerindian Asians versus East Asians?

    Amerindians and East Asians separated at least 15,000 years ago. A lot can happen in that amount of time, so I don’t think there is any particular reason to expect that the cognitive abilities of the two groups would still be the same today.

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    • Replies: @Seth Largo
    Too lazy to find citations, but Inuit do well on IQ tests. They fall between whites and Hispanics, closer to the white mean, I believe.
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  71. @Anonymous
    Didn't Thor Heyerdahl try to demonstrate this, back in the fifties, with his Kon Tiki raft?

    TH tried to support the opposite hypothesis, that the Polynesians originated in South America and from there settled the Pacific. He was wrong. He was also a cheat: his raft couldn’t get to sea successfully because of the strong coastal current so he took a tow until he was free from it.

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    • Replies: @ThreeCranes
    Thor Heyerdahl was not a cheat.

    A cheat would have taken the tow surreptitiously and attempted to conceal the fact. In contrast, Heyerdahl admitted right up front that they had tried and repeatedly failed to get off shore and finally were compelled to take the tow. All this was explained in the opening chapter of his book--hardly the tactics of a cheat.
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  72. OT Interesting insight by Continetti on the consequence of the fracturing of the polity into numerous outgroups rejecting the prevailing order.

    http://freebeacon.com/columns/book-blew-washington/

    I think Continetti is one of the better mainstream commentators. He appears to grasp the magnitude of the potential for globalist catastrophe.

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  73. @Hank Archer
    There was a controversy around 1990 in the Black Hills. There was a proposal to give part of the Federal lands there to the Sioux tribes as the area was their "traditional" homeland.

    The Crow objected, saying that they had lived there before the Sioux migrated into the area from Minnesota and the eastern Dakotas. Then the Shoshone suddenly remembered that the Crow had forced them from those lands. At that point the whole thing was dropped.

    Funny, I thought that the Black Hills was recognized as Lakota lands in perpetuity in the 1868 Ft. Laramie Treaty.. Where would the USG get any lands in the Black Hills to give to the “Sioux Tribes”?

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    • Replies: @Martin Morgan
    Exactly right. The failure to honor (just) this Treaty is an infected pustule on Lady Liberty' bosom. The Supreme Court acknowledged the treachery but awarded the Lakota money instead. The Lakota continue to refuse the money despite the fund having compounded to $billions. Meanwhile the low quality of the subsequent white inhabitants (the Sturgis bike rally being their cultural apex) must only add to Lakota horror and disgust at having been displaced by those morons.
    , @üeljang
    Funny, I thought the Lakota were a "Sioux Tribe."
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  74. According to some shared tribal beliefs, Native Americans sprang out of mother earth. So they were formed here.

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  75. @psmith
    Man, however it shakes out, this is pretty cool.

    Sailing across the Pacific 40,000 years ago to a new continent, I mean, Jesus. That's awesome.

    Whoops, this was supposed to be a standalone comment.

    (Though if I had to hazard a guess at the parent comment’s question, something to do with intensity of agriculture?)

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  76. @Twodees Partain
    Funny, I thought that the Black Hills was recognized as Lakota lands in perpetuity in the 1868 Ft. Laramie Treaty.. Where would the USG get any lands in the Black Hills to give to the "Sioux Tribes"?

    Exactly right. The failure to honor (just) this Treaty is an infected pustule on Lady Liberty’ bosom. The Supreme Court acknowledged the treachery but awarded the Lakota money instead. The Lakota continue to refuse the money despite the fund having compounded to $billions. Meanwhile the low quality of the subsequent white inhabitants (the Sturgis bike rally being their cultural apex) must only add to Lakota horror and disgust at having been displaced by those morons.

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    • Replies: @Charles Erwin Wilson II

    and disgust at having been displaced by those morons.
     
    As opposed to a paragon of virtue like you, and yours, right?
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  77. @Neoconned
    What's his name....the Kon tiki guy.....he postulated Polynesians colonized South America and supposedly there's genomic evidence to back thisup....

    Maybe a few Polynesian ships went adrift and hit the Continent and they mixed w the Indians and their ancestors moved to Brazil from the Pacific coast.....

    “What’s his name….the Kon tiki guy…..he postulated Polynesians colonized South America and supposedly there’s genomic evidence to back thisup….”

    I thought it was the other way around, early Peruvians colonized Polynesia.

    There is strong physical evidence of that and currents do flow directly from Peru to Polynesia.

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  78. @Anonymous
    What explains the lower test scores of Amerindian Asians versus East Asians?

    Simple. Amerindians never instituted a Confucian exam structure for social advancement.

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  79. @Neoconned
    What's his name....the Kon tiki guy.....he postulated Polynesians colonized South America and supposedly there's genomic evidence to back thisup....

    Maybe a few Polynesian ships went adrift and hit the Continent and they mixed w the Indians and their ancestors moved to Brazil from the Pacific coast.....

    The Kon-Tiki guy is the late Thor Heyerdahl. Another, lesser-known figure was Eric de Bisschop, who actually managed to make a trip eastward, which would be more relevant to Mr. Sailer’s line of inquiry. Unfortunately, it is my sense that marine archaeology doesn’t have the capability to tell when such voyages were first possible in relation to human population of the Americas.

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    • Replies: @Thirdeye
    There's a pretty good record of when Polynesians developed the sail technology that enables transoceanic voyages. It is much more recent than the settlement of the Americas and what evidence there is of Polynesian contact with South America suggests that it occurred close to the Columbian era.
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  80. @Hank Archer
    There was a controversy around 1990 in the Black Hills. There was a proposal to give part of the Federal lands there to the Sioux tribes as the area was their "traditional" homeland.

    The Crow objected, saying that they had lived there before the Sioux migrated into the area from Minnesota and the eastern Dakotas. Then the Shoshone suddenly remembered that the Crow had forced them from those lands. At that point the whole thing was dropped.

    The Crow may have lived there before the Dakota but probably not for very long. The Siouian-Yuchi languages are spoken across a wide arc with the Black Hills being the extreme westernmost point of this range while the Yuchi of North Carolina is at the extreme eastern point and the Biloxi on the Gulf Coast are the most southern.

    However the Dakota have been in the Black Hills since the end of the eighteenth century.

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    • Replies: @Charles Erwin Wilson II

    However the Dakota have been in the Black Hills since the end of the eighteenth century.
     
    So what? They are latecomers. They displaced indigenous peoples, with prejudice and violence.
    , @Jim
    I should have mentioned that the Crow are Siouan speakers. As the Black Hills are at the extreme western edge of the Siouan-Yuchi family both the Crow and Dakota are probably recent arrivals there. Quite aside from the historical evidence on this the Dakota dialects spoken over a wide area show little divergence indicating that they have spread apart quite recently. As the Black Hills are at the extreme Western edge of the area in which Siouan-Yuchi languages are spoken it is clear that the Siouan speakers there have only recently migrated into the Black Hills from the east.
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  81. @Neoconned
    Oh I forgot to add....maybe the Polynesians had melanesian admixture.....

    That or perhaps theu had a melanesian wife or slave or something....

    Maori are a mix of aboriginal Taiwanese and Melanesians. The Melanesian is on their paternal side.

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  82. @Inquiring Mind
    I have never figured out how Mr. Heyerdahl fits with the good thinking establishment.

    He was lionized as a Great Explorer by National Geographic and other august institutions as a latter-day Amundsen, but actual scholars of the settlement of Polynesia regarded him as a quack and a crank.

    What motivated the Kon Tiki expedition is his time spent in Tahiti where he observed the prevailing winds and ocean currents going in the other direction from Taiwan, where at least DNA studies indicate the Polynesians came from. Heyerdahl formed the theory that the Siberians/Beringians who crossed from modern day Russia to Alaska navigated their way down to Chile and then "hung a right" to head westward to Rapa Nui (Easter Island) to make their way to Tahiti. His gang of merry Norwegians on the balsa wood cork Kon Tiki were to show how the proto-Polynesians could bob their way westward until they made landfall, taking however long it needed because they could "live off the ocean" as Heyerdahls crew did getting their nutrition and hydration from the fish they could catch.

    Besides the genetic evidence going against Heyerdahl, didn't the Polynesians have advanced sailing tech in the form of outrigger or catamaran boats with keels and fins that allowed them to "tack" up wind? Far from being Kon Tiki rafts, their rigs would be competitive in America's Cup were they not banned for features that would be considered cheating?

    Heyerdahl also appealed to legends of lost tribes of blue-eyed peoples among both the South Americans as well as Polynesians? Supporting conjectures that other races crossed from Siberia oer into the Americas along with the proto-Indians?

    And of course he totally ignored the linguistic evidence. There is no resemblance between Malayo-Polynesian languages and the languages of the Americas. One very notable feature of the Malayo-Polynesian languages is how similar they are. Even the resemblances between Malagasy spoken in Madagascar and Hawaiian spoken virtually at the antipode are pretty clear. This indicates that the Malayo-Polynesian languages were spread very quickly. The greatest number of languages and by far the greatest populations are in Indonesia and the Philippines which are at the geographical center of the Malayo-Polynesian languages. Obviously that’s where the Malayo-Polynesians came from.

    Of course ultimately the entire Austronesian language family came from Taiwan. Of the more than one dozen branches of Austronesian languages only one – the Malayo-Polynesian branch – is found outside Taiwan.

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  83. Hypothesis: Andamanese were the favored prey of a remnant population of Azhdarchid pterosaurs who carried them as prey items from hunting grounds in the Old World to nesting sites in Brazil. Some of the prey escaped. Wake up sheeple, Conan Doyle’s Lost World is real!

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  84. @Sid
    "But how?"

    My guess is the proto-Australoids were respectable enough seafarers:

    * They crossed over from Asia to Australia by sea. Granted, I know what is now Indonesia was largely connected to Asia and Papua New Guinea was attached to Australia (before the ice caps melted somewhat and raised the sea levels), but there was still a leap from one continental landmass to the other.

    * Cochran in his blog post says that the Australoids in America were probably fishermen, rather than the Beringians who were big game hunters.

    * Their black skin indicates they collected clams in the afternoon, and the black skin protected them. Bushmen would just take a siesta during the afternoon and hence had copper brown skin. If they spent time along the shore, it makes sense they would eventually adopt sea faring skills.

    As such, some Australoids probably went along the coasts of East Asia northward, and eventually reached Beringia, got the hell out, and went down the coast before reaching South America and settled there.

    They had to cross from the Celebes (now called Sulawezi or something like that) to New Guinea but at the height of the Ice Ages this was a narrow channel probably about one hundred miles across. Once this channel was crossed they could proceed on foot from New Guinea to all of Australia except for Tasmania where another ocean crossing was necessary. They also had to make short ocean crossings to get to the nearby Melanesian islands such as the Solomon Islands. These islands have been inhabited for at least 40,000 years. But there is no archaeological evidence of any inhabitation of the remote Pacific Islands before 1000 BC when Guam was settled by people from the Philippines. By the way the settlement of the Philippines also required an ocean crossing as those islands were never connected to the Asian mainland even at the height of the Ice Ages. There are small numbers of Negritos living in the Philippine jungles. So they came over the ocean although the ocean trip at the Ice Age maximum would have been a lot shorter than today.

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    • Replies: @gcochran
    You could walk from Australia to Tasmania in the ice age.
    , @Sid
    In general, the proto-Australoids appear to have been decent enough seafarers. The sea distances they crossed weren't vast but weren't insignificant.

    It seems less likely to me that they crossed the southern Pacific by ship the way the Polynesians did, than that they moved along the coast relatively quickly, from Asia to Beringia to the Americas, before settling in South America. But either feat would be noteworthy.

    Australoids today have IQs in the 60s, whereas Polynesians and Native Americans have IQs in the 85-90 range, so their crossing into America is altogether more incredible, in both senses of the world, than it was with the Mongoloids who crossed by land through Beringia and traversed the south Pacific.
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  85. @gcochran
    Relatively recent, something like a thousand years ago.

    Still mind-boggling. Whether it was 1000 or 20000 years ago, where the hell did they get water from? Kon-Tiki took off with literally a ton of drinking water.

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    • Replies: @The Only Catholic Unionist
    Read the book. It rains quite a bit. They collected it. (Also, the fish would all too often just flop on board, which is great until you get something big and/or dangerous.)
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  86. @The Alarmist
    There is a body of Maori lore that holds that some of their ancients crossed the Pacific. It is not inconceivable that they might have been preceded by others of the region or that they themselves were the earlier peoples.

    The Maori came from Tahiti to New Zealand. This is known from a study of the relationships of Polynesian languages. The first islands inhabited by Polynesians were in Western Polynesian such as the Samoan islands. From here the Polynesians leaped forward to the Marquesas in Eastern Polynesia. The Marquesas were a secondary center of dispersion from which the Hawaiian Islands and Easter Island were settled. It was a back migration to the west from the Marquesas which settled Central Polynesia including Tahiti and then back form Tahiti to New Zealand. From New Zealand Chatham Island was settled which seems to have been the last place settled in Polynesia.

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  87. @Foreign Expert
    The trade winds blow east to west so that’s a tough slog. Not impossible but very tough in boats made of natural materials . The higher latitudes have west to east winds but that’s colder water. I think one of Magellan’s ships tried that but gave up.

    There is a theory that migration against the prevailing winds is actually more likely than with them.
    The reason is that if you set out from west to east during the short intervals when the wind reversed you were pretty sure of being able to return if you found no land because such reversals did not last long and when the customary pattern returned you could come back safely. On the other hand if you left the coast of South America your chances of ever returning were slim. You must either find land or perish.

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  88. @Anonymous
    Probably by boat from the Pacific Islands. After they reached the Americas, they probably switched over to living on land full time and didn't have the population size and thus specialization to have some people maintain major seagoing ability.

    The earliest archaeological record of the inhabitation of the remote Pacific Islands is on Guam about 1000 BC. No archaeological evidence of any inhabitation of the remote Pacific islands prior to 1000 BC.

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  89. @gcochran
    They do, about 20%.
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    • Replies: @gcochran
    Yes, it's wrong. Disconfirmed by ancient DNA studies.
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  90. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    "So it seems like they must have got there first.

    But how?"


    The Bering Strait, same way as the Amerindians? After all, if they got here first, and then gradually over time moved on, it would stand to reason that they wouldn't have had a chance to interbreed with Amerindians. In other words they migrated the same way as the Amerindians but as they were the first peoples to arrive here, couldn't have mated with other tribes and so moved on. The Amerindians also used the Bering Strait and over time migrated south.

    For some reason, it doesn't appear that either group preferred to stay very long in Alaska.

    This of course would rest on the assumption that they migrated to the New World further back in time. And Alaska is a pretty big land mass. Perhaps one would have to keep digging further for the answers.

    Most of Alaska was ice-covered during the Ice Ages. You think it’s cold there now.

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    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Yes, but that was a possibility for how they crossed over into the New World before the Amerindians. If say, they crossed over the Bering Strait about 1-3,000 yrs before the Amerindians, then they'd have probably migrated south by that point which would be why the Amerindians wouldn't have found any competitors when they first crossed over into the New World.

    On a lighter note, the Rams lost. Not a bad season, first one back in LA since 1980, but they just couldn't get it done.
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  91. I’m a firm believer in multiple independent migrations to the new world including multiple pacific crossings and at least 1 ancient one in the south Pacific. I think the evidence is there, including in the genetic testing on Amazon tribes like the article describes.

    The 13k year old Clovis-complex Anzick-1 skeleton from Montana is a great wiki score for me and I’m grateful to read people who can cite actual evidence to attach to the theories. But, according to wikipedia:

    Anzick-1 is the only human who has been discovered from the Clovis Complex, and is the first ancient Native American genome to be fully sequenced.[3]

    OK, so a genetic study on a whole (proposed) population with a sample size of 1? What can we really infer about a population from that? It’s fascinating and real evidence and all we have but at the same time it is not much, not enough for any certainty about anything. Our whole library of knowledge about these populations is basically anecdotal.

    Currently the oldest archaeological find in the Americas I’ve heard of is Monte Verde, at the southern tip of Chile on the other side of the world from Beringia. It was originally conservatively dated at about 10,000BC, with the team the worked on it ranging in it’s estimates between 10,000BC for the conservatives and 24,000BC for the kooks off the record. Then it started marching slowly back to 14,000BC and Wiki says it’s now considered to be at least 16,000BC. I don’t think they have any genetic data on who the occupants were but they know there were people living in yurts and hunting mammoth in the south of South America way back into the ice age.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monte_Verde

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    • Replies: @anonguy

    Currently the oldest archaeological find in the Americas I’ve heard of is Monte Verde, at the southern tip of Chile on the other side of the world from Beringia. It was originally conservatively dated at about 10,000BC, with the team the worked on it ranging in it’s estimates between 10,000BC for the conservatives and 24,000BC for the kooks off the record. Then it started marching slowly back to 14,000BC and Wiki says it’s now considered to be at least 16,000BC. I don’t think they have any genetic data on who the occupants were but they know there were people living in yurts and hunting mammoth in the south of South America way back into the ice age.
     
    Another alternative is it was just an ultimately unsuccessful isolate. Perhaps some people blown off somewhere to an unknown shore. Maybe they prospered for some generations, as a genetic isolate with no other humans nearby. Any number of things could have done them in, climate change, disease, maybe some flaw in their very limited gene pools.

    So kind of a more enduring but ultimately unsuccessful Swiss Family Robinson scenario.

    Wouldn't be surprised if there were many types of these events in human history, whether by land or sea.
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  92. @gcochran
    Relatively recent, something like a thousand years ago.

    It’s astonishing how similar Malagasy is to other Malayo-Polynesian languages. Following is a comparison of the numerals in Malagasy and Tagalog -

    Malagasy Tagalog

    one isa isa
    two roa dulawa
    three telo tulo
    four efatra apat
    five dimy lima
    six enina anim
    seven fito pito
    eight valo walo
    nine sivy siyam

    Note that rua and lua are common words for two in many Polynesian languages. Clearly the dispersion of the Malayo-Polynesian speakers has been very recent leaving little time for linguistic divergence.

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  93. @Amasius
    What if there's a connection with the negro-looking Olmec heads? Maybe they wuz kangz in Mesoamerica before getting overwhelmed.

    Olmec culture is very similar to Mayan culture. They had writing but unfortunately their writing has never been deciphered so we don’t know whether their language was related to Mayan languages. Olmec culture by the way is first millennium BC.

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  94. There’s nothing so simple as applying Occam’s Razor, yet so few of us even attempt to do so – we much prefer the elaborate and the unlikely over the rational. How did they get there? Easy. They flew. Yes, they flew as passengers in the space ships provided by the aliens who built the Egyptian pyramids and the Aztec monuments and the strange figures on Easter island. Why do so many refuse to accept the truth that our planet was once in thrall to creatures from outer space? Why? Surely, we have enough evidence of such ‘otherworldly’ events.

    Look around, folks, and read the tea leaves.

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  95. @jb
    Amerindians and East Asians separated at least 15,000 years ago. A lot can happen in that amount of time, so I don't think there is any particular reason to expect that the cognitive abilities of the two groups would still be the same today.

    Too lazy to find citations, but Inuit do well on IQ tests. They fall between whites and Hispanics, closer to the white mean, I believe.

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    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    Seth, probably the most resourceful people on earth, considering the limited material and food resources available to them.
    , @Reg Cæsar

    Too lazy to find citations, but Inuit do well on IQ tests.
     
    In one of his ADD books, Thom Hartmann reports on an Inuit school where every single child was diagnosed with it. Of course, they were perfectly normal.

    (I assume you meant you were too lazy to cite, not the Inuit themselves.)
    , @Jim
    I think they score in the low 90's which is much higher than most hunter-gatherers.
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  96. @Earl Lemongrab
    Manly Wade Wellman (American pulp fantasy writer & contemporary of Robert E. Howard) in his Silver John stories and novels posited a furtive race of North Americans who predated the American Indians called the Shonokins, who serve as villains in many of his works. So once again, the old pulp writers more or less had it right.

    Shonokins: They are an ancient race, an aboriginal “people of the land” who went into hiding with the advent of man. But they are plotting their return. The Shonokins reason their takeover of the world because the humans aren’t fit to run the Earth and it’s time for the true caretakers to return to power. Humanoid in appearance except for a look of displacement from the modern world, cat-like eyes, and their index fingers are the longest on the hand. Usually they dress in dark hand made clothing and wear broad brimmed hats.

    http://www.manlywadewellman.com/Wellbeast.htm

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  97. @Dave Pinsen
    Maybe they had the seafaring ability of the Polynesians at one point, but lost it.

    Maybe they had the seafaring ability of the Polynesians at one point, but lost it.

    A very small number of them made it across the Pacific on the Westerlies. (Much like the Polynesians later did.) They apparently did not get across the Darien gap, and were most ask-kicked when the Amer-Indians–better adapted, better toolkit–showed up a few thousand years later.

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  98. @Anonymous
    What explains the lower test scores of Amerindian Asians versus East Asians?

    What explains the lower test scores of Amerindian Asians versus East Asians?

    We’re talking 15,000 years–IQ isn’t static. Modern whites are quite a bit smarter–and more conscientious–than our ancestors even a few thousand years ago. (Of course, that’s in decline with the welfare state, but i mean at peak.)

    But if you want a simple answer: “the Neolithic”.

    Since the Neolithic the selection pressures on various peoples have been radically different.

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  99. Perhaps the Negritos came across in boats. Polynesians made it to Easter Island (at least), which is almost to South America.

    Technology can also be forgotten, not just created.

    On a somewhat related subject, I doubt that the Bering Strait has been as much of a barrier over the last 10,000 years as some textbooks imply.

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  100. @Logan
    Joseph Smith was right?

    Love it. People who live near lakes and fish a lot have similar genes.

    People who play basketball likely all have similar height genes; doesn’t mean they’re related.

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  101. @Seth Largo
    Too lazy to find citations, but Inuit do well on IQ tests. They fall between whites and Hispanics, closer to the white mean, I believe.

    Seth, probably the most resourceful people on earth, considering the limited material and food resources available to them.

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  102. @dearieme
    TH tried to support the opposite hypothesis, that the Polynesians originated in South America and from there settled the Pacific. He was wrong. He was also a cheat: his raft couldn't get to sea successfully because of the strong coastal current so he took a tow until he was free from it.

    Thor Heyerdahl was not a cheat.

    A cheat would have taken the tow surreptitiously and attempted to conceal the fact. In contrast, Heyerdahl admitted right up front that they had tried and repeatedly failed to get off shore and finally were compelled to take the tow. All this was explained in the opening chapter of his book–hardly the tactics of a cheat.

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    • Replies: @dearieme
    An honest man would have decided that his voyage, with its towed start, was bogus, and he'd have given up until he could work out a way of getting offshore without a tow.
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  103. @reiner Tor
    What do you think of these people going from Northeast Asia to Alaska and that way reaching South America along the coast line? Then getting wiped out in North America without admixture, but in South America with admixture. Getting exterminated without admixture seems possible to me, because - correct me if I’m wrong - Neanderthals also got exterminated without admixture in Europe. I think I read on your blog (or maybe in your book?) that our Neanderthal ancestry originated from another, earlier, admixture event* in the Middle East.

    *I’ve always felt sorry for my ancestor who screwed that Neanderthal woman, he must have been desperate, but without it the apex of evolution (yours truly) wouldn’t be around.

    I think–and from perusing many of the comments I surmise that I may be the most knowledgeable seafarer posting here–that you’re right. Even today kayakers–some even in skin (polyester that is) covered replicas of primitive boats–regularly make the trip down from Juneau to Seattle. In other words, crossing from Russia to Alaska is doable in primitive craft. Crossing the Pacific isn’t.

    Early humans hugged the coasts whenever possible. Imagine how difficult it was to cross wild country–bushwhacking through thick forest over mountains. Didn’t happen that way. Look at what we do know; all early settlement by whites on the East coast, in California, Washington etc. was by way of traveling up rivers and it is far easier to cross a river by boat than to swim, especially with your family and cultural artifacts in tow. Civilization has always followed the coasts and rivers.

    Some of you disparage Heyerdahl but you miss the main point. What he was mainly interested in proving was that early Man was a much better seafarer than we give him credit for. For this he was then, just as today, ridiculed by too many armchair anthropologists who were and are limited by their experience and can only conceive of traveling from the comfort of an automobile, blithely crossing rivers and mountains as though they were no obstacle at all.

    By voyaging in a primitive craft he was first and foremost trying to shake anthropologists out of their “dogmatic slumber”; to demonstrate in no uncertain terms that early people had such capabilities. Everything else was secondary.

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    • Agree: reiner Tor
    • Replies: @Lars Porsena
    But why say there is no precedent for crossing the South Pacific just because people today don't kayak it? We know the polynesians and others made it all the way to hawaii in the middle of the damn ocean with essentially paleolithic boats. And all the south pacific islands. I think the longest open ocean hop of the whole trip is between South America and Easter Island, and somebody had to have made it in one direction or the other. I could believe sailors coming west from anywhere in South America might not find Easter Island and might not go on past it to Tahiti, but I can't believe that sailors who found their way from indonesia all the way to Easter Island couldn't have found South America.
    , @Jim
    In traditional Micronesian cultures trips of about 100 miles between islands were routinely done. The trips would generally be made at night in calm weather and speeds of 10 knots were sometimes maintained.

    Canoe trips from Palau and Yap to the Philippines were fairly commonly made. The distance from Palau to the Philippines is about 500 miles.
    , @Thirdeye
    There was good seafaring technology dating back tens of thousands of years, but the Heyerdahl's proposed voyagers were not in possession of it and there is no evidence that they possessed the oceanic navigation skills to guide a craft to Tahiti. The Polynesians had the technology and the skills that the Peruvians lacked. Tahiti to South America by Polynesians is like a skilled marksman using an accurate rifle from 100 yards hitting a barn door. South America to Tahiti on a balsa raft is like someone using a 17th Century blunderbuss with only the skill required to hit the barn door from 20 yards hitting a much smaller target from 100 yards.
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  104. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    If the Anadanese could reach the Andaman Islands, they were probably capable of crossing to Alaska from Siberia or even crossing the Pacific on a fluke. One thing they probably had going for them was they seem to have been a fishing culture and were (are?) probably expert gigging with arrows; perhaps half a year at sea was survivable for them, but how did they get water? Perhaps they were just lucky with the rains.

    An 1875 photo of Andamanese fishing boats; they look like simple, functional outriggers:

    “Great Andamanese – boats 1875″, from Pottery, Tools and Technology (of Great Andamanese people), by George Weber:

    ” …”A remarkable photograph of 1875 (by E.H. Man) showing the influence the new masters were having on islanders’ daily life and technology only 17 years after the British took over. In the foreground is a traditional Great Andamanese outrigger canoe used mostly for fishing…”

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  105. @anonymous
    Why does the narration in the video about the islanders sound robotic? Listen for the unnatural rhythm and pitch, especially at the end of sentences.

    I recall noticing this before with other British* documentary TV clips. And now that I think about it, didn't Monty Python used to mock this?

    -------

    *Or would that be English? Navigating that distinction is another point of ignorance for me.

    “Why does the narration in the video about the islanders sound robotic? Listen for the unnatural rhythm and pitch, especially at the end of sentences.”

    The cadence and transitional pitch contours of the narration are unnatural, evidence that this narration is the output of text-to-voice software in which the option “male, British” was chosen. This robotic speech is unpleasant and requires the listener’s full attention. (For one example, at 3:45 is something that sounds like “A K A B tribesmen”.) Why do video producers use such listener-burdening text-to-voice robot narration? Is it a matter of cost?

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  106. There was a controversy around 1990 in the Black Hills. There was a proposal to give part of the Federal lands there to the Sioux tribes as the area was their “traditional” homeland.

    The Crow objected, saying that they had lived there before the Sioux migrated into the area from Minnesota and the eastern Dakotas. Then the Shoshone suddenly remembered that the Crow had forced them from those lands. At that point the whole thing was dropped.

    Sounds a lot like the process by which Whites acquired the land in the first place.

    Native Americans, who only killed for necessity, prayed for the animal’s soul, used the entire animal, and had no word for “war.”

    Sort of like how fish probably wouldn’t have a word for water.

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  107. The Andamanese of North Sentinel Island have survived via violent xenophobia, such as shooting a National Geographic photographer in the leg with an arrow.

    White folks, take note: The noble savage isn’t afraid to defend his tribe or his land. Going paleo means going medieval on outsiders.

    You can’t say diversity without saying die. (Well, you can, but never mind.)

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  108. @Jim
    They had to cross from the Celebes (now called Sulawezi or something like that) to New Guinea but at the height of the Ice Ages this was a narrow channel probably about one hundred miles across. Once this channel was crossed they could proceed on foot from New Guinea to all of Australia except for Tasmania where another ocean crossing was necessary. They also had to make short ocean crossings to get to the nearby Melanesian islands such as the Solomon Islands. These islands have been inhabited for at least 40,000 years. But there is no archaeological evidence of any inhabitation of the remote Pacific Islands before 1000 BC when Guam was settled by people from the Philippines. By the way the settlement of the Philippines also required an ocean crossing as those islands were never connected to the Asian mainland even at the height of the Ice Ages. There are small numbers of Negritos living in the Philippine jungles. So they came over the ocean although the ocean trip at the Ice Age maximum would have been a lot shorter than today.

    You could walk from Australia to Tasmania in the ice age.

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    • Replies: @Jim
    Thanks.
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  109. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Guess what photo the wikipedia has as the lead on their bowfishing” page?

    Negrito outrigger, from “The history and conquest of the Philippines and our other island possessions; embracing our war with the Filipinos in 1899″ by Alden March, published 1899:

    “The Filipino Negritos traditionally used bows and arrows to shoot fish in clear water.”

    This boat and bow-gigging style looks almost identical to the photo of the Andamanese turtle hunters. This gives a better overall idea of the boats. You have to look to notice the simple outrigger. The boat is basically just a large log that looks like it could have been hollowed out with a rock adze, with a smaller log used as an outrigger.

    There are Negrito people in the Phillippines:

    “…inhabit isolated parts of South and Southeast Asia. Their current populations include the Andamanese peoples… the Semang of Peninsular Malaysia, the Maniq people of Southern Thailand, and the Aeta people, Ati people, and 30 other ethnic groups in the Philippines.

    The Negrito peoples show strong physical similarities with the pygmy peoples of Africa but are genetically closer to their surrounding populations in Austronesia…

    …Australoid Negritos, similar to the Andamanese adivasis of today, were the first identifiable human population to colonize India, likely 30–65 thousand years before present

    …theorized to be part of a great coastal migration of humans from Africa along the coastal regions of the Indian mainland and towards Southeast Asia and Oceania….

    …Negritos may have also lived in Formosa. The Negrito population shrank to the point that, up to 100 years ago, only one small group lived near the Saisiyat tribe. Evidence of their former habitation is a Saisiyat festival celebrating the black people…”

    The bowfishing page implies you could potentially live off sharks while crossing part of the Pacific:

    “…In saltwater, rays and sharks are regularly pursued…

    …Bowfishing arrows are considerably heavier and stronger than arrows used in other types of archery…

    …arrows generally lack fletching, as it can cause the arrow to flare to one side or another underwater and they are not required at the relatively short ranges associated with bowfishing. Line is attached to the arrow by tying to a hole in the arrow shaft…

    …Knowing where to aim on a fish can be one of the most difficult skills to master in bowfishing. Due to the refraction of the water and how it optically distorts the location of objects…”

    You occasionally hear of poor Mexican or Central American fishermen who run out of gas or somesuch offshore and drift across the Pacific. If they are fishermen who have adequate fishing gear and water, they seem to be able to survive by fishing. It takes, what, 100 to 200 days to drift across the Pacific this way? At the right latitude, wouldn’t you drift the otherway?

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  110. @Neoconned
    http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2014/10/epic-pre-columbian-voyage-suggested-genes

    Are you familiar w this?

    Yes, it’s wrong. Disconfirmed by ancient DNA studies.

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  111. @ThreeCranes
    I think--and from perusing many of the comments I surmise that I may be the most knowledgeable seafarer posting here--that you're right. Even today kayakers--some even in skin (polyester that is) covered replicas of primitive boats--regularly make the trip down from Juneau to Seattle. In other words, crossing from Russia to Alaska is doable in primitive craft. Crossing the Pacific isn't.

    Early humans hugged the coasts whenever possible. Imagine how difficult it was to cross wild country--bushwhacking through thick forest over mountains. Didn't happen that way. Look at what we do know; all early settlement by whites on the East coast, in California, Washington etc. was by way of traveling up rivers and it is far easier to cross a river by boat than to swim, especially with your family and cultural artifacts in tow. Civilization has always followed the coasts and rivers.

    Some of you disparage Heyerdahl but you miss the main point. What he was mainly interested in proving was that early Man was a much better seafarer than we give him credit for. For this he was then, just as today, ridiculed by too many armchair anthropologists who were and are limited by their experience and can only conceive of traveling from the comfort of an automobile, blithely crossing rivers and mountains as though they were no obstacle at all.

    By voyaging in a primitive craft he was first and foremost trying to shake anthropologists out of their "dogmatic slumber"; to demonstrate in no uncertain terms that early people had such capabilities. Everything else was secondary.

    But why say there is no precedent for crossing the South Pacific just because people today don’t kayak it? We know the polynesians and others made it all the way to hawaii in the middle of the damn ocean with essentially paleolithic boats. And all the south pacific islands. I think the longest open ocean hop of the whole trip is between South America and Easter Island, and somebody had to have made it in one direction or the other. I could believe sailors coming west from anywhere in South America might not find Easter Island and might not go on past it to Tahiti, but I can’t believe that sailors who found their way from indonesia all the way to Easter Island couldn’t have found South America.

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    • Replies: @Intelligent Dasein
    That really is the whole point. It beggars belief to think that ancient seafarers could find every remote speck of land in the vast Pacific yet they somehow missed the the 12,000 mile long, planet-spanning continent further to the east.
    , @The Only Catholic Unionist
    Jose Salvador Alvarenga was a Salvadoran fishing out of a Pacific Coast Mexican fishing village who was caught in a storm, lost his engine, and drifted (no engine, no sail) for basically a year until he finally made landfall in the Marshall Islands. And that was a guy who was not prepared for a long voyage. Experienced seamen who were prepared for a long trip could absolutely have done it.
    , @ThreeCranes
    Let's look at the evidence provided in the comment above by "anonymous says: Disclaimer" regarding the boats used by today's ancestors of the people under discussion: "The boat is basically just a large log that looks like it could have been hollowed out with a rock adze, with a smaller log used as an outrigger."

    This boat is a far cry from the sailing proas and catamarans used by the Polynesians at roughly 1000 AD. The boat described above is a coastal boat, not an ocean crossing vessel.

    There are today tales of survivors who have been swept across oceans by the currents of the great oceanic gyres. Some lucky few survive. Water was the limiting factor. This is the best account and is a must read for every enquiring person who fancies himself educated. From Wiki, "Steven Callahan (born 1952) is an American author, naval architect, inventor, and sailor noted for having survived for 76 days adrift on the Atlantic Ocean in a liferaft. Callahan recounted his ordeal in the best-selling book Adrift: 76 Days Lost At Sea (1986), which was on the New York Times best-seller list for more than 36 weeks."

    Callahan would have perished many times over had he not had two Navy issue solar stills in his emergency bail out bag. Callahan crossed the Atlantic on the great current that also swept Columbus across. The mirror current in the Pacific is against the grain for someone traveling west to east in tropical latitudes. The eastbound current sweeps up below Alaska down the Pacific Northwest coast to California before turning west back towards Asia. This is why the seaweed, giant kelp, anemones, abalones, sea cucumbers and urchins that are found from Puget Sound all the way north to Juneau are also found as far south as San Francisco. The water temperature is within a few degrees all the way along this stretch--cold--as it comes down from the north. The Gulf Stream is the mirror image counterpart to this in the Atlantic. It carries warm equatorial water up the American east coast across to Norway and Scotland before turning (now cold) south to run past Britain and France's coast.

    http://www.plasticfreeocean.org/sites/plasticfreeocean.org/files/imagecache/Lightbox/global_surface_currents.gif

    No small boat can buck these currents. They are better thought of as rivers. They are "conveyor belts" to use Thor Heyerdahl language. Even modern yachts which can point higher than 40 degrees into the wind avoid doing so on long oceanic passages. British Admiralty began systematically collecting data from voyages by sailing vessels during the great age of sail which were compiled into wind and current charts that were and are still used to advantage by Captains ever since. Even modern freighters use these currents (like the Jetstream) whenever they can.

    The Polynesians could make some progress against these currents because the catamaran is a fast sailing boat but bear in mind, their technology is advanced of the people in question by approx. 45,000 years.

    Inasmuchas I know that humans can voyage from Asia to South America by canoe, uniak and kayak and I strongly suspect that Stone Age people had no boat that could sail against the combined wind and current of the prevailing westerly equatorial currents of the Pacific, I am therefore left with no choice but to go with what I know.
    , @Thea
    Polynesians seem likely visitors yet there is no physical evidence of them in South America yet found.
    , @Jim
    The long jumps were from Samoa to the Marquesas, from the Marquesas to the Hawaiian Islands and to Easter Island and the longest of all from Tahiti to New Zealand.
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  112. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Drifting across the pacific:

    “Salvadoran man who says he drifted across Pacific Ocean for over a year heads home”, Associated Press February 10, 2014:

    “A Salvadoran man who says he drifted in an open boat across the Pacific for more than a year thanked people in the Marshall Islands for taking care of him and said he was “doing very well” before starting his journey home Monday…

    Clean-shaven and walking without assistance at the airport…

    …He told officials during his two-week recuperation at the hospital and a hotel in the capital, Majuro, that he left Mexico in late 2012 with another fisherman, who later died, when a storm threw them off course and he drifted across 6,500 miles of open ocean. He said he survived on fish, birds and turtles

    …accompanied by Diego Dalton, an official from the El Salvador’s embassy in Tokyo…

    …his family in El Salvador had spoken to him by phone…”

    “In their disabled boat, 3 Mexicans drift 9 months across Pacific”, International Herald Tribune, AUG. 16, 2006:

    Three Mexican fishermen who say they set out months ago from Mexico’s western coast have been rescued near the Marshall Islands – 8,800 kilometers, or 5,500 miles, to the west – after surviving on rainwater and raw fish….

    …the men were recovering and would be brought to Majuro in 10 to 14 days…

    …”We fished, and we ate the fish raw” because “there was no fire to cook with,”…

    …They once went 15 days without food but had enough drinking water because “it rained every day,” he said. He said the three read the Bible as they drifted across the Pacific on their disabled boat…

    …”Our feet are swollen, our arms are swollen” but “we’re not in that bad shape.”…

    …he and the other two men set off on Oct. 28, 2005, from San Blas, a coastal town about 650 kilometers northwest of Mexico City, to fish for sharks. But mechanical problems and adverse winds quickly pushed their 8- meter, or 27-foot, boat out to sea…

    …”It was nine months and nine days,”… the government news agency Notimex interviewed relatives of the men in San Blas, who said they had been missing for three months…

    …the three carried only flashlights and a compass but no radio…”

    Ryou-Un Maru:

    “…a Japanese fishing boat that was washed away from its mooring in Aomori Prefecture by the March 2011 Tōhoku earthquake and tsunami and drifted across the Pacific Ocean

    …spotted a year later by a routine Royal Canadian Air Force air patrol about 150 nautical miles (280 km; 170 mi) off the coast of… British Columbia…”

    “Last voyage of the ghost ship: Fishing boat washed up by Japanese tsunami is sunk by U.S. cannons”, Daily Mail, 5 April 2012.

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  113. @Lars Porsena
    But why say there is no precedent for crossing the South Pacific just because people today don't kayak it? We know the polynesians and others made it all the way to hawaii in the middle of the damn ocean with essentially paleolithic boats. And all the south pacific islands. I think the longest open ocean hop of the whole trip is between South America and Easter Island, and somebody had to have made it in one direction or the other. I could believe sailors coming west from anywhere in South America might not find Easter Island and might not go on past it to Tahiti, but I can't believe that sailors who found their way from indonesia all the way to Easter Island couldn't have found South America.

    That really is the whole point. It beggars belief to think that ancient seafarers could find every remote speck of land in the vast Pacific yet they somehow missed the the 12,000 mile long, planet-spanning continent further to the east.

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  114. @Anonymous
    Still mind-boggling. Whether it was 1000 or 20000 years ago, where the hell did they get water from? Kon-Tiki took off with literally a ton of drinking water.

    Read the book. It rains quite a bit. They collected it. (Also, the fish would all too often just flop on board, which is great until you get something big and/or dangerous.)

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    • Replies: @Jim
    Some years ago three Samoan teenagers were blown out to sea and were given up for dead and given funeral services. Months later their little fishing boat washed up on Fiji with all three alive and in surprisingly good conditions. They had drunk rainwater and had caught flying fish. I remember traveling on boats on the Pacific and often seeing flying fish. I also often saw whales but they would not have been so easy to catch.
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  115. @Lars Porsena
    But why say there is no precedent for crossing the South Pacific just because people today don't kayak it? We know the polynesians and others made it all the way to hawaii in the middle of the damn ocean with essentially paleolithic boats. And all the south pacific islands. I think the longest open ocean hop of the whole trip is between South America and Easter Island, and somebody had to have made it in one direction or the other. I could believe sailors coming west from anywhere in South America might not find Easter Island and might not go on past it to Tahiti, but I can't believe that sailors who found their way from indonesia all the way to Easter Island couldn't have found South America.

    Jose Salvador Alvarenga was a Salvadoran fishing out of a Pacific Coast Mexican fishing village who was caught in a storm, lost his engine, and drifted (no engine, no sail) for basically a year until he finally made landfall in the Marshall Islands. And that was a guy who was not prepared for a long voyage. Experienced seamen who were prepared for a long trip could absolutely have done it.

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    • Replies: @Jim
    Amazing. Imagine living in a small boat on the Pacific all by one's self for a whole year. Every night the huge Pacific sky above one and blackness all around. Nothing to do but count the meteors.
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  116. @Lars Porsena
    But why say there is no precedent for crossing the South Pacific just because people today don't kayak it? We know the polynesians and others made it all the way to hawaii in the middle of the damn ocean with essentially paleolithic boats. And all the south pacific islands. I think the longest open ocean hop of the whole trip is between South America and Easter Island, and somebody had to have made it in one direction or the other. I could believe sailors coming west from anywhere in South America might not find Easter Island and might not go on past it to Tahiti, but I can't believe that sailors who found their way from indonesia all the way to Easter Island couldn't have found South America.

    Let’s look at the evidence provided in the comment above by “anonymous says: Disclaimer” regarding the boats used by today’s ancestors of the people under discussion: “The boat is basically just a large log that looks like it could have been hollowed out with a rock adze, with a smaller log used as an outrigger.”

    This boat is a far cry from the sailing proas and catamarans used by the Polynesians at roughly 1000 AD. The boat described above is a coastal boat, not an ocean crossing vessel.

    There are today tales of survivors who have been swept across oceans by the currents of the great oceanic gyres. Some lucky few survive. Water was the limiting factor. This is the best account and is a must read for every enquiring person who fancies himself educated. From Wiki, “Steven Callahan (born 1952) is an American author, naval architect, inventor, and sailor noted for having survived for 76 days adrift on the Atlantic Ocean in a liferaft. Callahan recounted his ordeal in the best-selling book Adrift: 76 Days Lost At Sea (1986), which was on the New York Times best-seller list for more than 36 weeks.”

    Callahan would have perished many times over had he not had two Navy issue solar stills in his emergency bail out bag. Callahan crossed the Atlantic on the great current that also swept Columbus across. The mirror current in the Pacific is against the grain for someone traveling west to east in tropical latitudes. The eastbound current sweeps up below Alaska down the Pacific Northwest coast to California before turning west back towards Asia. This is why the seaweed, giant kelp, anemones, abalones, sea cucumbers and urchins that are found from Puget Sound all the way north to Juneau are also found as far south as San Francisco. The water temperature is within a few degrees all the way along this stretch–cold–as it comes down from the north. The Gulf Stream is the mirror image counterpart to this in the Atlantic. It carries warm equatorial water up the American east coast across to Norway and Scotland before turning (now cold) south to run past Britain and France’s coast.

    No small boat can buck these currents. They are better thought of as rivers. They are “conveyor belts” to use Thor Heyerdahl language. Even modern yachts which can point higher than 40 degrees into the wind avoid doing so on long oceanic passages. British Admiralty began systematically collecting data from voyages by sailing vessels during the great age of sail which were compiled into wind and current charts that were and are still used to advantage by Captains ever since. Even modern freighters use these currents (like the Jetstream) whenever they can.

    The Polynesians could make some progress against these currents because the catamaran is a fast sailing boat but bear in mind, their technology is advanced of the people in question by approx. 45,000 years.

    Inasmuchas I know that humans can voyage from Asia to South America by canoe, uniak and kayak and I strongly suspect that Stone Age people had no boat that could sail against the combined wind and current of the prevailing westerly equatorial currents of the Pacific, I am therefore left with no choice but to go with what I know.

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    • Replies: @Thea
    So, would it be more likely to find blown-off-course Polynesian artifacts in Antarctica than South America?

    At the Southern tip of Hawaii there is a current that will take swimmer straight to. Antarctica so native Hawaiians would tie on a rope if they need to swim out there for certain things.


    Several years back they thought they found 600-year-old Polynesian chicken bones in Chile but it turned to be some native bird instead.

    I do find it odd there aren't even any driftwood type evidence from Polynesia on those coasts but the currents would explain it.


    But isn't Easter Island in the middle if the S Pacific gyre?
    , @Lars Porsena
    OK, I am not a sailor, but the sea current chart you show seems to show a western current flowing east in the south, from about Fiji or Tonga to the South Pacific Gyre, or south from the Pitcairns, south around Easter Island in the middle of it, and into the Peru current up the west coast of South America. Then back west across the Pacific to Hawaii or following the gyre back to south to the Pitcairn islands. What's the issue with there not being a current?

    It makes sense someone getting cast adrift off Mexico would end up in the Marshall Islands according to that graph, there is a current. But it looks like if they went adrift south of the Marshalls they would swing down Australia, up around New Zealand, across the ocean and land in Chile. And most of the eastern south pacific islands they certainly did find appear to be inside the gyre and not in the path of those current arrows.
    , @Neoconned
    That current is also what causes the Mediterranean climate in California and the PAC NW and small portions of west Mexico.....
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  117. Is island hopping a possibility? Maybe there were once many more islands in the South Pacific that have since “sunk.”

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  118. @PV van der Byl
    Yes, there are examples of primitive societies regressing technologically. Evidently, Tasmanian aborigines lost the ability to catch and eat seafood and even start fires, after then last Ice Age.

    Richard Rudgeley’s “Lost Civilisations of the Stone Age” discusses such regression. Not sure but I believe that the BBC made a series based on the book.

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  119. @Anonym
    Land bridges in an ice age? It has to be either by sea or by land or a combination.

    I have vague recollections of hearing about the possibility of groups crossing the North Atlantic east to west during the Ice Age exploiting hunting at the edge of the ice sheets.

    Ah, see for example:

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/new-evidence-suggests-stone-age-hunters-from-europe-discovered-america-7447152.html

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  120. @Twodees Partain
    Funny, I thought that the Black Hills was recognized as Lakota lands in perpetuity in the 1868 Ft. Laramie Treaty.. Where would the USG get any lands in the Black Hills to give to the "Sioux Tribes"?

    Funny, I thought the Lakota were a “Sioux Tribe.”

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  121. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    “…early Man was a much better seafarer than we give him credit for.”

    I’m guessing a good part of the trick is being good enough at fishing to avoid starving and somehow getting enough water. Negrito bow-fishermen might have been able to easily chum for sharks across pretty long voyages and it seems bow-fishing for turtle is something they clearly do; that might have helped with the fresh water:

    “Castaway’s sea savvy could have helped him survive year adrift, says expert:
    Co-author of Essentials of Sea Survival says story of fisherman José Salvador Alvarenga is physiologically feasible”, Peter Walker, The Guardian, 4 Feb ‘14:

    “…”The fact that he had a maritime background and knows how to be at sea and survive has got to be an enormous behavioural advantage.”…

    …Tipton’s book lists a series of innovative if grisly ways to obtain fluids, including sucking the moisture from the spinal columns of fish and drinking the blood of turtles, the latter being something Alvarenga says he did. A 20kg turtle can provide about a litre of blood – a substance described as tasting like “the elixir of life” by a previous castaway…

    …turtles were relatively easy to catch and could be a lifesaver. “There’s also quite a good layer of fat on a turtle, just under the shell…

    …Alvarenga’s biggest advantage might simply have been his years of experience at sea. Tipton said: “One of the things we’ve learned over the centuries is that people who are regular seafarers are behaviourally adapted to that environment. It’s even down to little things. If you or I were stuck in that situation we’d probably be seasick for the first week, and that would be sufficient to finish us in itself…”

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    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Can you use turtle shells as bowls to hold water?

    Modern adrift mariners typically have canvas or nylon to collect rain and funnel it into buckets. What did people have tens of thousands of years ago.

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  122. I think that’s old news .

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  123. @anonymous
    "...early Man was a much better seafarer than we give him credit for."

    I'm guessing a good part of the trick is being good enough at fishing to avoid starving and somehow getting enough water. Negrito bow-fishermen might have been able to easily chum for sharks across pretty long voyages and it seems bow-fishing for turtle is something they clearly do; that might have helped with the fresh water:


    "Castaway's sea savvy could have helped him survive year adrift, says expert:
    Co-author of Essentials of Sea Survival says story of fisherman José Salvador Alvarenga is physiologically feasible", Peter Walker, The Guardian, 4 Feb ‘14:


    "..."The fact that he had a maritime background and knows how to be at sea and survive has got to be an enormous behavioural advantage."...

    ...Tipton's book lists a series of innovative if grisly ways to obtain fluids, including sucking the moisture from the spinal columns of fish and drinking the blood of turtles, the latter being something Alvarenga says he did. A 20kg turtle can provide about a litre of blood – a substance described as tasting like "the elixir of life" by a previous castaway...

    ...turtles were relatively easy to catch and could be a lifesaver. "There's also quite a good layer of fat on a turtle, just under the shell...

    ...Alvarenga's biggest advantage might simply have been his years of experience at sea. Tipton said: "One of the things we've learned over the centuries is that people who are regular seafarers are behaviourally adapted to that environment. It's even down to little things. If you or I were stuck in that situation we'd probably be seasick for the first week, and that would be sufficient to finish us in itself..."

     

    Can you use turtle shells as bowls to hold water?

    Modern adrift mariners typically have canvas or nylon to collect rain and funnel it into buckets. What did people have tens of thousands of years ago.

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  124. @ThreeCranes
    Let's look at the evidence provided in the comment above by "anonymous says: Disclaimer" regarding the boats used by today's ancestors of the people under discussion: "The boat is basically just a large log that looks like it could have been hollowed out with a rock adze, with a smaller log used as an outrigger."

    This boat is a far cry from the sailing proas and catamarans used by the Polynesians at roughly 1000 AD. The boat described above is a coastal boat, not an ocean crossing vessel.

    There are today tales of survivors who have been swept across oceans by the currents of the great oceanic gyres. Some lucky few survive. Water was the limiting factor. This is the best account and is a must read for every enquiring person who fancies himself educated. From Wiki, "Steven Callahan (born 1952) is an American author, naval architect, inventor, and sailor noted for having survived for 76 days adrift on the Atlantic Ocean in a liferaft. Callahan recounted his ordeal in the best-selling book Adrift: 76 Days Lost At Sea (1986), which was on the New York Times best-seller list for more than 36 weeks."

    Callahan would have perished many times over had he not had two Navy issue solar stills in his emergency bail out bag. Callahan crossed the Atlantic on the great current that also swept Columbus across. The mirror current in the Pacific is against the grain for someone traveling west to east in tropical latitudes. The eastbound current sweeps up below Alaska down the Pacific Northwest coast to California before turning west back towards Asia. This is why the seaweed, giant kelp, anemones, abalones, sea cucumbers and urchins that are found from Puget Sound all the way north to Juneau are also found as far south as San Francisco. The water temperature is within a few degrees all the way along this stretch--cold--as it comes down from the north. The Gulf Stream is the mirror image counterpart to this in the Atlantic. It carries warm equatorial water up the American east coast across to Norway and Scotland before turning (now cold) south to run past Britain and France's coast.

    http://www.plasticfreeocean.org/sites/plasticfreeocean.org/files/imagecache/Lightbox/global_surface_currents.gif

    No small boat can buck these currents. They are better thought of as rivers. They are "conveyor belts" to use Thor Heyerdahl language. Even modern yachts which can point higher than 40 degrees into the wind avoid doing so on long oceanic passages. British Admiralty began systematically collecting data from voyages by sailing vessels during the great age of sail which were compiled into wind and current charts that were and are still used to advantage by Captains ever since. Even modern freighters use these currents (like the Jetstream) whenever they can.

    The Polynesians could make some progress against these currents because the catamaran is a fast sailing boat but bear in mind, their technology is advanced of the people in question by approx. 45,000 years.

    Inasmuchas I know that humans can voyage from Asia to South America by canoe, uniak and kayak and I strongly suspect that Stone Age people had no boat that could sail against the combined wind and current of the prevailing westerly equatorial currents of the Pacific, I am therefore left with no choice but to go with what I know.

    So, would it be more likely to find blown-off-course Polynesian artifacts in Antarctica than South America?

    At the Southern tip of Hawaii there is a current that will take swimmer straight to. Antarctica so native Hawaiians would tie on a rope if they need to swim out there for certain things.

    Several years back they thought they found 600-year-old Polynesian chicken bones in Chile but it turned to be some native bird instead.

    I do find it odd there aren’t even any driftwood type evidence from Polynesia on those coasts but the currents would explain it.

    But isn’t Easter Island in the middle if the S Pacific gyre?

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    • Replies: @anonguy

    So, would it be more likely to find blown-off-course Polynesian artifacts in Antarctica than South America?
     
    One of the problems of finding evidence for these types of crossings is that a lot of it is underwater. The oceans have been rising since the last ice age so lots of stuff is underwater now that wasn't 6000+ years ago.
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  125. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    “Can you use turtle shells as bowls to hold water?”

    Don’t know, but one would think so. This is an interesting reference to sea turtles:

    Jesús Vidaña:

    “…together with Lucio Rendón and Salvador Ordóñez, survived nine months adrift in a fishing boat…

    …left the Mexican port of San Blas… to catch sharks… in a 28-foot fiberglass boat… they exhausted their fuel… strong easterly winds…

    …The three survived for nine months on raw fish, seagulls and sea turtles and by collecting rain in empty gasoline containers…with the onset of winter, successive cold fronts brought showers, enabling their survival…

    …two other companions, including the vessel’s owner, died from starvation…

    …realized that it would be easier to cross the ocean to the west, rather than attempting to turn into the wind… fashioned a sail with blankets… Over 270 days their average speed was four kilometers per hour…

    …The men made fishing hooks with strings and wire from the engine, and caught turtles by diving into the ocean with a rope tied to their waists. They ate everything: meat, blood, bones, eggs, and so survived for nine months…”

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  126. See, what happened was, as a piece of ice sheet pushed down towards the coast, the wind covered it with sand and other detritus. This provided some insulation allowing it to push into warmer air than it otherwise would have. In turn allowing more vegetation to take hold, and an even thicker layer of soil to cover the ice. By the time the ice sheet reached the sea, the covering was thick enough to support trees and animals and people. A storm caused part of it to break off and this floating island took its inhabitants all the way to South America.

    Either that or a glacier burrowed underground into some friable aquifer lifting a piece of land?

    Some peculiarity of the ice age favoured the creation of huge floating peat islands bound together with vegetation and supporting mangrove or other trees, one of which islands broke off while people were on it…?

    There are probably reasons why these couldn’t happen. Sometimes it helps to know things.

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  127. @wren
    I like haplogroup X2a.

    Found in American Indians around the Great Lakes and in the Druze around the Sea of Galilee.

    What it means, I don't know.

    I like haplogroup X2a.

    Found in American Indians around the Great Lakes and in the Druze around the Sea of Galilee.

    There is a claim that the ancient Phoenicians knew of North America and traveled down the St. Lawrence River into Lake Huron, landing in what is now the upper peninsula of Michigan, where they mined copper. This might account for the presence of a haplogroup both in the Levant and around the Great Lakes

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    • Replies: @wren
    Very interesting.

    It does not appear that the DNA mystery folks are aware of the copper connection and the copper mystery folks don't seem to be aware of the DNA connection.

    That is based on a cursory Google search and shallow understanding of the mysteries involved.

    I was surprised to learn that there was indeed a huge copper culture going back many millennia in the Great Lakes region however.
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  128. @ThreeCranes
    Let's look at the evidence provided in the comment above by "anonymous says: Disclaimer" regarding the boats used by today's ancestors of the people under discussion: "The boat is basically just a large log that looks like it could have been hollowed out with a rock adze, with a smaller log used as an outrigger."

    This boat is a far cry from the sailing proas and catamarans used by the Polynesians at roughly 1000 AD. The boat described above is a coastal boat, not an ocean crossing vessel.

    There are today tales of survivors who have been swept across oceans by the currents of the great oceanic gyres. Some lucky few survive. Water was the limiting factor. This is the best account and is a must read for every enquiring person who fancies himself educated. From Wiki, "Steven Callahan (born 1952) is an American author, naval architect, inventor, and sailor noted for having survived for 76 days adrift on the Atlantic Ocean in a liferaft. Callahan recounted his ordeal in the best-selling book Adrift: 76 Days Lost At Sea (1986), which was on the New York Times best-seller list for more than 36 weeks."

    Callahan would have perished many times over had he not had two Navy issue solar stills in his emergency bail out bag. Callahan crossed the Atlantic on the great current that also swept Columbus across. The mirror current in the Pacific is against the grain for someone traveling west to east in tropical latitudes. The eastbound current sweeps up below Alaska down the Pacific Northwest coast to California before turning west back towards Asia. This is why the seaweed, giant kelp, anemones, abalones, sea cucumbers and urchins that are found from Puget Sound all the way north to Juneau are also found as far south as San Francisco. The water temperature is within a few degrees all the way along this stretch--cold--as it comes down from the north. The Gulf Stream is the mirror image counterpart to this in the Atlantic. It carries warm equatorial water up the American east coast across to Norway and Scotland before turning (now cold) south to run past Britain and France's coast.

    http://www.plasticfreeocean.org/sites/plasticfreeocean.org/files/imagecache/Lightbox/global_surface_currents.gif

    No small boat can buck these currents. They are better thought of as rivers. They are "conveyor belts" to use Thor Heyerdahl language. Even modern yachts which can point higher than 40 degrees into the wind avoid doing so on long oceanic passages. British Admiralty began systematically collecting data from voyages by sailing vessels during the great age of sail which were compiled into wind and current charts that were and are still used to advantage by Captains ever since. Even modern freighters use these currents (like the Jetstream) whenever they can.

    The Polynesians could make some progress against these currents because the catamaran is a fast sailing boat but bear in mind, their technology is advanced of the people in question by approx. 45,000 years.

    Inasmuchas I know that humans can voyage from Asia to South America by canoe, uniak and kayak and I strongly suspect that Stone Age people had no boat that could sail against the combined wind and current of the prevailing westerly equatorial currents of the Pacific, I am therefore left with no choice but to go with what I know.

    OK, I am not a sailor, but the sea current chart you show seems to show a western current flowing east in the south, from about Fiji or Tonga to the South Pacific Gyre, or south from the Pitcairns, south around Easter Island in the middle of it, and into the Peru current up the west coast of South America. Then back west across the Pacific to Hawaii or following the gyre back to south to the Pitcairn islands. What’s the issue with there not being a current?

    It makes sense someone getting cast adrift off Mexico would end up in the Marshall Islands according to that graph, there is a current. But it looks like if they went adrift south of the Marshalls they would swing down Australia, up around New Zealand, across the ocean and land in Chile. And most of the eastern south pacific islands they certainly did find appear to be inside the gyre and not in the path of those current arrows.

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    • Replies: @ThreeCranes
    Well, that's a lot of open ocean to cross in a dugout log.

    While the islands of the Pacific Ocean look substantial on a globe or in an Atlas, they are in reality tiny microscopic dots in a vast expanse of trackless sea. That the Polynesians found most of them perplexes modern sailors and geographers. Books such as East Is A Big Bird explore the complexities of Polynesian navigation. Much is made of their mysterious connection with the currents, colors, smells etc of the sea and their ability to read the direction of land from intersecting wave patterns etc. They were consummate astronomers.

    There is a risk here of romanticising this "in touch with the ocean" stuff as, for example, the Portuguese sailors were as in touch with the ocean as any humans could possibly be and they found crossing oceans burdensome to say the least. Foul water, scurvy etc. took their toll. Of 270 men who set forth with Magellan, fewer than 50 survived--and this was in decked ships equipped with decent sails.

    The east flowing current you call out is called the Roaring Forties. Beneath them is the Furious Fifties and the Screaming Sixties. They acquired these names due to the huge seas built up by their running unimpeded around the globe. There's no land down there to break up the circumpolar flow.The Roaring Forties are no place for a hollowed out log.

    Here's Wiki on global currents and winds: "A Chinese or Japanese sailor who sails east finds only thousands of miles of empty ocean and a few tiny islands. The Kuroshio Current tends to push his ship northeast into the westerlies and towards North America. There are records of unlucky Japanese fishermen being blown to North America, but no records of any who sailed home."

    I'm not trying to know anything here. I'm as blind as everyone else. And on youz guys' side of the argument, just as a guy in a Klepper can push off from North Africa and land in the West Indies (Dr. Hans Lindemann in 1957), so too can someone leave Asia and drift to North America. All they've got to do is survive.

    Dr. Lindemann studied the minimal diet needed to survive being castaway. He took beer and condensed milk believing that these, supplemented by fish, would provide complete nutrition.

    But all this is moot if people in animal-fat-smeared skin boats or dugout logs hugged the coasts and ate the food to which they were adapted. They could move their entire culture--one that was adapted to shore life--with them. There's just so much less of a leap of faith involved.
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  129. @Lars Porsena
    But why say there is no precedent for crossing the South Pacific just because people today don't kayak it? We know the polynesians and others made it all the way to hawaii in the middle of the damn ocean with essentially paleolithic boats. And all the south pacific islands. I think the longest open ocean hop of the whole trip is between South America and Easter Island, and somebody had to have made it in one direction or the other. I could believe sailors coming west from anywhere in South America might not find Easter Island and might not go on past it to Tahiti, but I can't believe that sailors who found their way from indonesia all the way to Easter Island couldn't have found South America.

    Polynesians seem likely visitors yet there is no physical evidence of them in South America yet found.

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    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Polynesian yams apparently came from South American over the last few thousand years. Did they get to Polynesia via Thor Heyerdahl-like South Americans voyaging to Polynesia or did Polynesians get to South America, turn around and go back?
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  130. It’s hard to be confident in any explanation for now, but we can always speculate:

    1. This Andamanese-like population seems to have been much more widespread back in the stone age, before beeing pushed around by other Asian groups, often with minimal intermixing (IIRC, Andamanese-like DNA is rare even in populations that are currently living close to them). We could have the scenario where these Andamanese were once widespread over Northeastern Asia, and from there migrated to America very early (maybe before the glaciation maximun around 26,000 years ago). After that, their numbers were crushed in Asia by a combination of colder weather and war with modern asian populations, while in America they disappeared in the North due to the chilling in the glacial maximum, and latter were wiped out in South America by the invading peoples that would latter be called First Nations.

    (maybe relevant, some relatively recent human remaints in Brazil don’t look very Amerindian: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luzia_Woman)

    2. A different, though I believe less likely, possibility: some commenters raised the possibility of small groups of sailers reachiing South America either by East or West dragged by winds/currents. The problem with this is that these fishing parties would very likely be small and not contain women, which would preclude the formation of a viable colony… unless they somehow reached an already inhabited shore and managed to not be killed by the natives. In this case, it would be possible for this very small amount of Andamese DNA to have arrived after the current Indians.

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    • Replies: @Whoever

    A different, though I believe less likely, possibility: some commenters raised the possibility of small groups of sailors reaching South America either by East or West dragged by winds/currents. The problem with this is that these fishing parties would very likely be small and not contain women, which would preclude the formation of a viable colony…
     
    Why not contain women? What do we know of the social arrangements of 40,000 years ago? We don't know if these people deliberately set off on voyages of discovery, were deep sea fishers who were swept away, were ... -- we don't know anything.
    We can have fun speculating about human rafting events -- episodes in which groups of animals are imagined to have been swept out to sea and washed ashore on far distant lands.
    This is an interesting read on that subject: The Monkey's Voyage: How Improbable Journeys Shaped the History of Life. The title refers to conjectures on how monkeys got to South and Central America. If monkeys, why not humans? And perhaps not by chance but by banishment -- "Both male and female shall ye put out, without the camp shall ye put them." (Numbers 5:3)
    We have a few intriguing facts. The rest is hand waving.
    From the review cited:

    "[T]he evidence for long-distance dispersal actually comes from rejection of the null hypothesis of vicariance. In practice, this is most often because the dichotomous branching of the taxa is estimated to be too recent to match the vicariant history of the lands on which they occur. This means that the crucial evidence is the dating of the nodes in the molecular phylogenies. Indeed, the recurrent theme of the book is that it is the switch from morphology to molecules that destroyed the Cladistic paradigm for biogeography. A critical look at the data, then, would involve questioning the molecular dating procedure. For example, if the true dates of the branches are older than the current estimates, then the evidence begins to melt away."
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  131. @Hank Archer
    There was a controversy around 1990 in the Black Hills. There was a proposal to give part of the Federal lands there to the Sioux tribes as the area was their "traditional" homeland.

    The Crow objected, saying that they had lived there before the Sioux migrated into the area from Minnesota and the eastern Dakotas. Then the Shoshone suddenly remembered that the Crow had forced them from those lands. At that point the whole thing was dropped.

    Agree.

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  132. Modern adrift mariners typically have canvas or nylon to collect rain and funnel it into buckets. What did people have tens of thousands of years ago.

    I want to say greased animal hide was the ancient equivalent.

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  133. @Jim
    The Crow may have lived there before the Dakota but probably not for very long. The Siouian-Yuchi languages are spoken across a wide arc with the Black Hills being the extreme westernmost point of this range while the Yuchi of North Carolina is at the extreme eastern point and the Biloxi on the Gulf Coast are the most southern.

    However the Dakota have been in the Black Hills since the end of the eighteenth century.

    However the Dakota have been in the Black Hills since the end of the eighteenth century.

    So what? They are latecomers. They displaced indigenous peoples, with prejudice and violence.

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  134. @Jim
    Most of Alaska was ice-covered during the Ice Ages. You think it's cold there now.

    Yes, but that was a possibility for how they crossed over into the New World before the Amerindians. If say, they crossed over the Bering Strait about 1-3,000 yrs before the Amerindians, then they’d have probably migrated south by that point which would be why the Amerindians wouldn’t have found any competitors when they first crossed over into the New World.

    On a lighter note, the Rams lost. Not a bad season, first one back in LA since 1980, but they just couldn’t get it done.

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  135. @Martin Morgan
    Exactly right. The failure to honor (just) this Treaty is an infected pustule on Lady Liberty' bosom. The Supreme Court acknowledged the treachery but awarded the Lakota money instead. The Lakota continue to refuse the money despite the fund having compounded to $billions. Meanwhile the low quality of the subsequent white inhabitants (the Sturgis bike rally being their cultural apex) must only add to Lakota horror and disgust at having been displaced by those morons.

    and disgust at having been displaced by those morons.

    As opposed to a paragon of virtue like you, and yours, right?

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  136. @Lagertha
    shit, Steve, this is a trick question: like duh, the Stone/Bronze age, and stuff! What I can suggest is; Denisovan people were spread out in the North. And you never tell other people about the best fishing spots.

    And you never tell other people about the best fishing spots.

    Aren’t you the flirtatious one? Is that one of the ways you enticed your husband?

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  137. @Thea
    Polynesians seem likely visitors yet there is no physical evidence of them in South America yet found.

    Polynesian yams apparently came from South American over the last few thousand years. Did they get to Polynesia via Thor Heyerdahl-like South Americans voyaging to Polynesia or did Polynesians get to South America, turn around and go back?

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    • Replies: @Thea
    I don't know. Maybe a current or storm carried yams to Polynesia without people? A South American raft full of yams was adrift and floated west?

    Or maybe we will yet find Polynesian artifacts in South America someday?

    , @dearieme
    Given that the Polynesians were brilliant seamen and navigators, and the South Americans were not (as far as I know), my money is on Polynesians from Easter Island striking the coast of Chile but not attempting a settlement because it was already occupied. Reminiscent of the Norse retreating from North America and returning to Greenland.
    , @TWS
    Some claim that chickens were in south America when the Spanish got here.
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  138. @Steve Sailer
    Polynesian yams apparently came from South American over the last few thousand years. Did they get to Polynesia via Thor Heyerdahl-like South Americans voyaging to Polynesia or did Polynesians get to South America, turn around and go back?

    I don’t know. Maybe a current or storm carried yams to Polynesia without people? A South American raft full of yams was adrift and floated west?

    Or maybe we will yet find Polynesian artifacts in South America someday?

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  139. @ThirdWorldSteveReader
    It's hard to be confident in any explanation for now, but we can always speculate:

    1. This Andamanese-like population seems to have been much more widespread back in the stone age, before beeing pushed around by other Asian groups, often with minimal intermixing (IIRC, Andamanese-like DNA is rare even in populations that are currently living close to them). We could have the scenario where these Andamanese were once widespread over Northeastern Asia, and from there migrated to America very early (maybe before the glaciation maximun around 26,000 years ago). After that, their numbers were crushed in Asia by a combination of colder weather and war with modern asian populations, while in America they disappeared in the North due to the chilling in the glacial maximum, and latter were wiped out in South America by the invading peoples that would latter be called First Nations.

    (maybe relevant, some relatively recent human remaints in Brazil don't look very Amerindian: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luzia_Woman)

    2. A different, though I believe less likely, possibility: some commenters raised the possibility of small groups of sailers reachiing South America either by East or West dragged by winds/currents. The problem with this is that these fishing parties would very likely be small and not contain women, which would preclude the formation of a viable colony... unless they somehow reached an already inhabited shore and managed to not be killed by the natives. In this case, it would be possible for this very small amount of Andamese DNA to have arrived after the current Indians.

    A different, though I believe less likely, possibility: some commenters raised the possibility of small groups of sailors reaching South America either by East or West dragged by winds/currents. The problem with this is that these fishing parties would very likely be small and not contain women, which would preclude the formation of a viable colony…

    Why not contain women? What do we know of the social arrangements of 40,000 years ago? We don’t know if these people deliberately set off on voyages of discovery, were deep sea fishers who were swept away, were … — we don’t know anything.
    We can have fun speculating about human rafting events — episodes in which groups of animals are imagined to have been swept out to sea and washed ashore on far distant lands.
    This is an interesting read on that subject: The Monkey’s Voyage: How Improbable Journeys Shaped the History of Life. The title refers to conjectures on how monkeys got to South and Central America. If monkeys, why not humans? And perhaps not by chance but by banishment — “Both male and female shall ye put out, without the camp shall ye put them.” (Numbers 5:3)
    We have a few intriguing facts. The rest is hand waving.
    From the review cited:

    “[T]he evidence for long-distance dispersal actually comes from rejection of the null hypothesis of vicariance. In practice, this is most often because the dichotomous branching of the taxa is estimated to be too recent to match the vicariant history of the lands on which they occur. This means that the crucial evidence is the dating of the nodes in the molecular phylogenies. Indeed, the recurrent theme of the book is that it is the switch from morphology to molecules that destroyed the Cladistic paradigm for biogeography. A critical look at the data, then, would involve questioning the molecular dating procedure. For example, if the true dates of the branches are older than the current estimates, then the evidence begins to melt away.”

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  140. @Crawfurdmuir

    I like haplogroup X2a.

    Found in American Indians around the Great Lakes and in the Druze around the Sea of Galilee.
     
    There is a claim that the ancient Phoenicians knew of North America and traveled down the St. Lawrence River into Lake Huron, landing in what is now the upper peninsula of Michigan, where they mined copper. This might account for the presence of a haplogroup both in the Levant and around the Great Lakes

    Very interesting.

    It does not appear that the DNA mystery folks are aware of the copper connection and the copper mystery folks don’t seem to be aware of the DNA connection.

    That is based on a cursory Google search and shallow understanding of the mysteries involved.

    I was surprised to learn that there was indeed a huge copper culture going back many millennia in the Great Lakes region however.

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  141. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    “Polynesian yams apparently came from South American over the last few thousand years.”

    It would only take one boat on a beach in South America and the right storm to make a load of yams float across the Pacific, unmanned, wouldn’t it?

    So maybe a few thousand years ago agriculture in South America got to the point where you had sufficient boats and yams to make the statistics work out right?

    (Or heck, a simple South American boat with a long-dead crew…)

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  142. @Jim
    They had to cross from the Celebes (now called Sulawezi or something like that) to New Guinea but at the height of the Ice Ages this was a narrow channel probably about one hundred miles across. Once this channel was crossed they could proceed on foot from New Guinea to all of Australia except for Tasmania where another ocean crossing was necessary. They also had to make short ocean crossings to get to the nearby Melanesian islands such as the Solomon Islands. These islands have been inhabited for at least 40,000 years. But there is no archaeological evidence of any inhabitation of the remote Pacific Islands before 1000 BC when Guam was settled by people from the Philippines. By the way the settlement of the Philippines also required an ocean crossing as those islands were never connected to the Asian mainland even at the height of the Ice Ages. There are small numbers of Negritos living in the Philippine jungles. So they came over the ocean although the ocean trip at the Ice Age maximum would have been a lot shorter than today.

    In general, the proto-Australoids appear to have been decent enough seafarers. The sea distances they crossed weren’t vast but weren’t insignificant.

    It seems less likely to me that they crossed the southern Pacific by ship the way the Polynesians did, than that they moved along the coast relatively quickly, from Asia to Beringia to the Americas, before settling in South America. But either feat would be noteworthy.

    Australoids today have IQs in the 60s, whereas Polynesians and Native Americans have IQs in the 85-90 range, so their crossing into America is altogether more incredible, in both senses of the world, than it was with the Mongoloids who crossed by land through Beringia and traversed the south Pacific.

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  143. @Lars Porsena
    OK, I am not a sailor, but the sea current chart you show seems to show a western current flowing east in the south, from about Fiji or Tonga to the South Pacific Gyre, or south from the Pitcairns, south around Easter Island in the middle of it, and into the Peru current up the west coast of South America. Then back west across the Pacific to Hawaii or following the gyre back to south to the Pitcairn islands. What's the issue with there not being a current?

    It makes sense someone getting cast adrift off Mexico would end up in the Marshall Islands according to that graph, there is a current. But it looks like if they went adrift south of the Marshalls they would swing down Australia, up around New Zealand, across the ocean and land in Chile. And most of the eastern south pacific islands they certainly did find appear to be inside the gyre and not in the path of those current arrows.

    Well, that’s a lot of open ocean to cross in a dugout log.

    While the islands of the Pacific Ocean look substantial on a globe or in an Atlas, they are in reality tiny microscopic dots in a vast expanse of trackless sea. That the Polynesians found most of them perplexes modern sailors and geographers. Books such as East Is A Big Bird explore the complexities of Polynesian navigation. Much is made of their mysterious connection with the currents, colors, smells etc of the sea and their ability to read the direction of land from intersecting wave patterns etc. They were consummate astronomers.

    There is a risk here of romanticising this “in touch with the ocean” stuff as, for example, the Portuguese sailors were as in touch with the ocean as any humans could possibly be and they found crossing oceans burdensome to say the least. Foul water, scurvy etc. took their toll. Of 270 men who set forth with Magellan, fewer than 50 survived–and this was in decked ships equipped with decent sails.

    The east flowing current you call out is called the Roaring Forties. Beneath them is the Furious Fifties and the Screaming Sixties. They acquired these names due to the huge seas built up by their running unimpeded around the globe. There’s no land down there to break up the circumpolar flow.The Roaring Forties are no place for a hollowed out log.

    Here’s Wiki on global currents and winds: “A Chinese or Japanese sailor who sails east finds only thousands of miles of empty ocean and a few tiny islands. The Kuroshio Current tends to push his ship northeast into the westerlies and towards North America. There are records of unlucky Japanese fishermen being blown to North America, but no records of any who sailed home.”

    I’m not trying to know anything here. I’m as blind as everyone else. And on youz guys’ side of the argument, just as a guy in a Klepper can push off from North Africa and land in the West Indies (Dr. Hans Lindemann in 1957), so too can someone leave Asia and drift to North America. All they’ve got to do is survive.

    Dr. Lindemann studied the minimal diet needed to survive being castaway. He took beer and condensed milk believing that these, supplemented by fish, would provide complete nutrition.

    But all this is moot if people in animal-fat-smeared skin boats or dugout logs hugged the coasts and ate the food to which they were adapted. They could move their entire culture–one that was adapted to shore life–with them. There’s just so much less of a leap of faith involved.

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    • Replies: @reiner Tor

    While the islands of the Pacific Ocean look substantial on a globe or in an Atlas, they are in reality tiny microscopic dots in a vast expanse of trackless sea. That the Polynesians found most of them perplexes modern sailors and geographers.
     
    Does it perplex them? I read somewhere that it's no big mystery. The proximity of an island has a lot of signs, for example the closer you get, the more branches of trees etc. you'll find in the ocean, then there are different types of seabirds, each with a maximum distance from an island, and similar things. They said that basically each island radiates signs of its present to an area roughly 200 miles in diameter, so that is the size of the area they had to find. Once they found it, they could send expeditions (usually when conditions on the original island became too crowded) with a couple boats, and probably at most a few such expeditions were enough to get within visible distance of the island. Visibility was way higher for these people, because for genetic reasons they had/have much better eyes than we do. They could see things much farther away. (While the prevalence of myopia is much lower among them.)

    So, at least according to what I read, it's not a mystery at all.
    , @Alec Leamas

    While the islands of the Pacific Ocean look substantial on a globe or in an Atlas, they are in reality tiny microscopic dots in a vast expanse of trackless sea. That the Polynesians found most of them perplexes modern sailors and geographers. Books such as East Is A Big Bird explore the complexities of Polynesian navigation. Much is made of their mysterious connection with the currents, colors, smells etc of the sea and their ability to read the direction of land from intersecting wave patterns etc. They were consummate astronomers.
     
    I figure that for every successful expedition (in the sense of making landfall before running out of provisions) there must have been many more unsuccessful expeditions.

    I'd also note that modern Polynesians didn't seem to have had much of a problem with cannibalism until they were colonized by Westerners and had that practice outlawed by force. One imagines that if a share of your crew who helps get your vessel into the trade winds and current early on can become your provisions over the later course of a voyage, you're extending your range and viability a good deal.
    , @dearieme
    "beer and condensed milk believing that these, supplemented by fish, would provide complete nutrition": and to think that people mock North European cuisine.
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  144. @Seth Largo
    Too lazy to find citations, but Inuit do well on IQ tests. They fall between whites and Hispanics, closer to the white mean, I believe.

    Too lazy to find citations, but Inuit do well on IQ tests.

    In one of his ADD books, Thom Hartmann reports on an Inuit school where every single child was diagnosed with it. Of course, they were perfectly normal.

    (I assume you meant you were too lazy to cite, not the Inuit themselves.)

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  145. …a hero of human biodiversity preservation for taking the lead in persuading the Indian government to stop trying to contact the North Sentinelese.

    Yes, but there has got to be some serious sexual harassment going on there, so you can be sure their isolation days are numbered.

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  146. @Logan
    Thor Heyerdahl didn't postulate that Polynesians colonized South America. He postulated that Polynesia was (first) colonized by South (and North) American Indians. He was wrong, but then he didn't have the linguistic and DNA evidence that showed his error.

    Thor Heyerdahl … postulated that Polynesia was (first) colonized by South (and North) American Indians. He was wrong, …

    Heyerdahl may have been correct with respect to Easter Island where there were separate South American Indian and Polynesian populations may have coexisted in pre-European times.

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  147. @ThreeCranes
    Let's look at the evidence provided in the comment above by "anonymous says: Disclaimer" regarding the boats used by today's ancestors of the people under discussion: "The boat is basically just a large log that looks like it could have been hollowed out with a rock adze, with a smaller log used as an outrigger."

    This boat is a far cry from the sailing proas and catamarans used by the Polynesians at roughly 1000 AD. The boat described above is a coastal boat, not an ocean crossing vessel.

    There are today tales of survivors who have been swept across oceans by the currents of the great oceanic gyres. Some lucky few survive. Water was the limiting factor. This is the best account and is a must read for every enquiring person who fancies himself educated. From Wiki, "Steven Callahan (born 1952) is an American author, naval architect, inventor, and sailor noted for having survived for 76 days adrift on the Atlantic Ocean in a liferaft. Callahan recounted his ordeal in the best-selling book Adrift: 76 Days Lost At Sea (1986), which was on the New York Times best-seller list for more than 36 weeks."

    Callahan would have perished many times over had he not had two Navy issue solar stills in his emergency bail out bag. Callahan crossed the Atlantic on the great current that also swept Columbus across. The mirror current in the Pacific is against the grain for someone traveling west to east in tropical latitudes. The eastbound current sweeps up below Alaska down the Pacific Northwest coast to California before turning west back towards Asia. This is why the seaweed, giant kelp, anemones, abalones, sea cucumbers and urchins that are found from Puget Sound all the way north to Juneau are also found as far south as San Francisco. The water temperature is within a few degrees all the way along this stretch--cold--as it comes down from the north. The Gulf Stream is the mirror image counterpart to this in the Atlantic. It carries warm equatorial water up the American east coast across to Norway and Scotland before turning (now cold) south to run past Britain and France's coast.

    http://www.plasticfreeocean.org/sites/plasticfreeocean.org/files/imagecache/Lightbox/global_surface_currents.gif

    No small boat can buck these currents. They are better thought of as rivers. They are "conveyor belts" to use Thor Heyerdahl language. Even modern yachts which can point higher than 40 degrees into the wind avoid doing so on long oceanic passages. British Admiralty began systematically collecting data from voyages by sailing vessels during the great age of sail which were compiled into wind and current charts that were and are still used to advantage by Captains ever since. Even modern freighters use these currents (like the Jetstream) whenever they can.

    The Polynesians could make some progress against these currents because the catamaran is a fast sailing boat but bear in mind, their technology is advanced of the people in question by approx. 45,000 years.

    Inasmuchas I know that humans can voyage from Asia to South America by canoe, uniak and kayak and I strongly suspect that Stone Age people had no boat that could sail against the combined wind and current of the prevailing westerly equatorial currents of the Pacific, I am therefore left with no choice but to go with what I know.

    That current is also what causes the Mediterranean climate in California and the PAC NW and small portions of west Mexico…..

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  148. @hackberry
    Steve, is that saved location on the posted map the city of Mirpur?

    Mirpur, in the Pakistan part of the state of Kashmir, is about 2,000 miles away from Port Blair, in the Andaman Islands.

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  149. @YetAnotherAnon
    Surely more likely to be Port Blair, the only airport AFAIK in the Andamans. Big (dot) Indian tourist place these days.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_Blair

    Interesting that they've kept the Brit colonial name, perhaps because they'd have to make it an Andaman tribal name (or perhaps a Chola Empire one, or maybe even a Danish Empire one - amazing who's been there over the years).

    PS - anyone know what if any genetic work's been done on Dorset remains, the "original" Eskimos/Skraelings? Who were they related to? Or are the only remains artefacts?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorset_culture

    Surely more likely to be Port Blair, the only airport AFAIK in the Andamans. Big (dot) Indian tourist place these days.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_Blair

    Interesting that they’ve kept the Brit colonial name…

    There are a few places in India that still retain British names. Wellington, in the southern part of the country, is where they have their military staff college.

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  150. You haven’t been keeping up with the news, Steve. If you’re looking for scientifically based evidence of the first settlers of North America, it’s likely not the Clovis. It’s more likely to be the Solutreans. There’s certainly enough evidence to remove Asian settlers as forgone conclusion.

    Science simply no longer backs that theory up. European tool artifacts are popping up like popcorn in many othe areas in the North America, that predate Clovis.

    You can start with this, then google your way to a new politically incorrect, but scientifically valid perspective. Oh, and we want our land back:

    https://www.theguardian.com/science/2016/may/14/archaeology-florida-sinkhole-ancient-humans-mastodon-knife-bones-bering-strait

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  151. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    “But all this is moot if people in animal-fat-smeared skin boats or dugout logs hugged the coasts and ate the food to which they were adapted.”

    Perhaps it could also be a bit of a mix, with people mostly dispersing by hugging the coast, but ever so often getting blown by storms a few hundred miles across some proto-Aleutian gaps… or perhaps from longer jumps from Formosa or around Japan.

    The Smithsonian has an article about Japanese drifting to Hawaii and potentially the Americas (by the way, note the female suvivors), this apparently became a not unheard of occurence in the century before Perry:

    “Borne on a Black Current: For thousands of years, the Pacific Ocean’s strong currents have swept shipwrecked Japanese sailors onto American shores”, Curtis Ebbesmeyer and Eric Scigliano, Smithsonian, June 15, 2009:

    “…Flotsametrics and the Floating World: How One Man’s Obsession with Runaway Sneakers and Rubber Ducks Revolutionized Ocean Science, the authors explain how a vicious current has swept sailors from Japan all the way to the Americas many times over many millennia…

    …another contingent of scholars makes a compelling case for repeated wash-ups by Japanese castaways over the past six thousand years… The doyen of this faction is Betty Meggers, an eminent anthropologist at the Smithsonian Institution, who has advanced this inquiry for more than fifty years…

    …The Kuroshio (“Black Current,” named after the dark color it lends the horizon when viewed from the shore) is the Pacific Ocean’s answer to the Atlantic’s Gulf Stream…

    Around 1260 CE, a junk drifted nearly to North America, until the California Current caught it and sent it into the westbound trade winds, which deposited it near Wailuku, Maui. Six centuries later the oral history of the event had passed down… rescued the five… still alive on the junk, three men and two women. One, the captain, escaped the wreck wearing his sword; hence the incident has come to be known as the tale of the iron knife. The five castaways were treated like royalty…

    By 1650, according to John Stokes, curator of Honolulu’s Bishop Museum, four more vessels had washed up…

    …Hawaiian legend recounts that the first Polynesian settlers there encountered diminutive menehune (“little people”)…

    …University of Washington anthropologist George Quimby estimated, between 500 and 1750 CE some 187 junks drifted from Japan to the Americas. The number of drifts increased dramatically after 1603… the shoguns… demanded annual tributes of rice… tribute-laden vessels… had to traverse an exposed deepwater reach called Enshu-nada, the infamous Bay of Bad water…

    …Of ninety drifting vessels documented by the Japanese expert Arakawa Hidetoshi, storms blew 68 percent out into the Black Current

    …To see where… drifted… the Natural Science Club in Choshi…, threw 750 bottles into the Kuroshio in October 1984 and 1985. By 1998, beachcombers had recovered 49: 7 along North America, 9 in the Hawaiian Islands, 13 in the Philippines, and 16 in the vicinity of Japan… A few swung back onto the Russian peninsula of Kamchatka, just north of Japan. Kamchatkans adopted the slang term dembei for bobbing castaways, after a Japanese fisherman named Dembei whose junk drifted there in 1697 —the first known contact between Japanese and Russians.

    …By the mid-1800s an average of two Japanese derelicts appeared each year along the shipping lanes from California to Hawaii. Four showed up near Hawaii in one thirty-year period in the early nineteenth century; at least five crewmen survived. …

    …In October 1813, the junk Tokujo Maru left Tokyo, returning to Toba after delivering the shogun’s annual tribute. The nor’westers swept it out to sea and it drifted for 530 days, passing within a mile of California… 470 miles off Mexico, an American brig hailed the hulk and rescued the three survivors. After four years away, the Tokujo Maru’s captain, Jukichi, returned to Japan… secretly recorded his travels in A Captain’s Diary. Though it was officially banned, Jukichi’s Diary intrigued and influenced Japanese scholars…”

    “Funaosa Nikki: A Captain’s Diary – Jukichi’s Four-year Odyssey Across the Pacific, Through California, Alaska, Kamchatka, and Back to Japan, 1813-1817″

    “Funaosa nikki: a captain’s diary : Jūkichi’s four-year odyssey across the Pacific, through California, Alaska, Kamchatka, and back to Japan, 1813-1817″

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    • Replies: @Whoever
    That was a very interesting post!

    "In October 1813, the junk Tokujo Maru...recorded his travels in A Captain’s Diary".

    I found a copy of 船長日記全.
    The ship displaced about 120 tons. It drifted for 484 days before the three survivors were picked up by the British merchant ship Horston near Santa Barbara, Calif. Those rescued were returned to Japan via Alaska and Kamchatka.
    At that time, although California was nominally Spanish (and the Horston was probably trading illegally), Russian ships were active in the Channel Islands. They used crews of Aleuts to hunt sea otters for their much-prized fur. The Alaskans were quite brutal to the native Indians; in fact, the tribe of the so-called lone woman of San Nicholas Island (subject of the novel, Island of the Blue Dolphins) was devastated by these Russian/Aleut hunters.
    Russia was interested in Japan at the time and seems to have had designs on Hokkaido. Maybe that's why the three Japanese survivors were treated well and returned to Japan -- an attempt at a diplomatic opening, perhaps.

    , @ThreeCranes
    Very good post.

    I would like to point out however that it may mislead some readers into believing that it is possible to drift directly from Japan to Hawaii. It is not. The drift takes the boat generally first northeast towards the Pacific coast of North America thence southwards parallel to the coast and finally west across to Hawaii, following as it does some inner or outer trajectory of the clockwise gyre.

    Yachts used to sell relatively cheaply in Hawaii because Californians with an itch to sail the ocean blue head across on what is call a "sleighride" down wind and current-backed run to Hawaii. Having scratched that itch they then contemplated the return trip which involves sailing north to catch the "Black Current" you describe which carries them up towards Alaska then down to Vancouver Island, Straits of Juan de Fuca and San Francisco etc.

    Numerous sailers, having slaked their thirst for adventure, forego this leg of the trip and instead, put their boats up for sale in Hawaii. So daunting is the prospect of facing the cold rough northern journey home that others simply carry on to the South Sea Islands and on around the world since that is a more pleasant (warm and sunny) prospect.

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  152. Japanese junk is STILL AND ALWAYS washing up on the shore of Wailuku, Maui.

    All plastic.

    Maybe some Chinese and Korean, too, but mostly Japanese junk.

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  153. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    “…bow-fishing for turtle is something they clearly do; that might have helped with the fresh water…”

    “…drinking the blood of turtles, the latter being something Alvarenga says he did. A 20kg turtle can provide about a litre of blood…”

    and

    ““Can you use turtle shells as bowls to hold water?”

    Steve, it appears the survival literature (and these stories) are saying that drinking sea turtle blood is an alternative to drinking fresh water. So if these early people lived primarily by gigging sea turtles, flounder, shark, and such in shallow water, they would be a lot better than most of us at catching sea turtles if they were cast adrift. (Aren’t the Andaman islands one of the great sea turtle places? Coincidence?)

    Explore Andaman:

    “Four species of sea turtles are found along the coast of Andaman and Nicobar Islands…”

    “When Stranded at Sea for 16 Months, You Can Survive on Turtle Blood, Apparently”, The Atlantic, Danielle Wiener-Bronner, Jan 31, 2014:

    “…A man who washed up on Ebon Atoll in a remote part of the Marshall Islands… at sea for 16 months, surviving on turtles, birds and fish, in a beaten-up fiberglass boat with no fishing tackle. Oh, and by drinking turtle blood instead of rainwater when necessary. Which, apparently, is a thing you can do to live.

    …Drinking turtle blood is, reportedly, a tried and true method of surviving a long, unwanted stint at sea. According to the book Wilderness Survival for Dummies…

    “…you can also safely drink turtle’s blood to save your life. This method has saved many castaways. Technically, the blood has protein in it, so it would seem to violate one of the rules of water conservation. But because this last-ditch source of liquid has saved so many, including friends of ours, we don’t hesitate recommending it. Sea turtles are slow-moving animals and you can easily catch them, either by snagging them with hooks or gaffs (hooked poles) or by catching them with your hands….”

    …In a 2003 post called “Dying of thirst? Try turtle blood,” OceanNavigator.com notes in that seven Nicaraguan fishermen survived a month at sea because they drank turtle blood:

    “…a group of fishermen adrift in the Pacific for a month. The seven Nicaraguans lost power on their 33-foot boat and drifted nearly 600 miles out to sea before being picked up by a merchant ship Jan. 5. Despite running out of water early in their voyage, the men stayed completely healthy because of their ability to capture turtles and drink their blood…”

    You do have a screen-play under development called Vampire People of the Pacific, don’t you?

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  154. @PV van der Byl
    Yes, there are examples of primitive societies regressing technologically. Evidently, Tasmanian aborigines lost the ability to catch and eat seafood and even start fires, after then last Ice Age.

    As Africans lost the ability to build flying craft.

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  155. @Lars Porsena
    I'm a firm believer in multiple independent migrations to the new world including multiple pacific crossings and at least 1 ancient one in the south Pacific. I think the evidence is there, including in the genetic testing on Amazon tribes like the article describes.

    The 13k year old Clovis-complex Anzick-1 skeleton from Montana is a great wiki score for me and I'm grateful to read people who can cite actual evidence to attach to the theories. But, according to wikipedia:


    Anzick-1 is the only human who has been discovered from the Clovis Complex, and is the first ancient Native American genome to be fully sequenced.[3]
     
    OK, so a genetic study on a whole (proposed) population with a sample size of 1? What can we really infer about a population from that? It's fascinating and real evidence and all we have but at the same time it is not much, not enough for any certainty about anything. Our whole library of knowledge about these populations is basically anecdotal.

    Currently the oldest archaeological find in the Americas I've heard of is Monte Verde, at the southern tip of Chile on the other side of the world from Beringia. It was originally conservatively dated at about 10,000BC, with the team the worked on it ranging in it's estimates between 10,000BC for the conservatives and 24,000BC for the kooks off the record. Then it started marching slowly back to 14,000BC and Wiki says it's now considered to be at least 16,000BC. I don't think they have any genetic data on who the occupants were but they know there were people living in yurts and hunting mammoth in the south of South America way back into the ice age.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monte_Verde

    Currently the oldest archaeological find in the Americas I’ve heard of is Monte Verde, at the southern tip of Chile on the other side of the world from Beringia. It was originally conservatively dated at about 10,000BC, with the team the worked on it ranging in it’s estimates between 10,000BC for the conservatives and 24,000BC for the kooks off the record. Then it started marching slowly back to 14,000BC and Wiki says it’s now considered to be at least 16,000BC. I don’t think they have any genetic data on who the occupants were but they know there were people living in yurts and hunting mammoth in the south of South America way back into the ice age.

    Another alternative is it was just an ultimately unsuccessful isolate. Perhaps some people blown off somewhere to an unknown shore. Maybe they prospered for some generations, as a genetic isolate with no other humans nearby. Any number of things could have done them in, climate change, disease, maybe some flaw in their very limited gene pools.

    So kind of a more enduring but ultimately unsuccessful Swiss Family Robinson scenario.

    Wouldn’t be surprised if there were many types of these events in human history, whether by land or sea.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Lars Porsena
    That's essentially the model for the Viking immigration that crossed the North Atlantic before the Spaniards cross the Central Atlantic. It was a bonafide migration to the new world if ultimately an unsuccessful one, barring maybe some isolated indian dudes here or there who have weird neanderthal gene markers that may have come via swedes or someplace else, plus some stone ruins.
    , @dearieme
    " hunting mammoth in the south of South America way back into the ice age": goodness me, how did the mammoths get there?
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  156. @Thea
    So, would it be more likely to find blown-off-course Polynesian artifacts in Antarctica than South America?

    At the Southern tip of Hawaii there is a current that will take swimmer straight to. Antarctica so native Hawaiians would tie on a rope if they need to swim out there for certain things.


    Several years back they thought they found 600-year-old Polynesian chicken bones in Chile but it turned to be some native bird instead.

    I do find it odd there aren't even any driftwood type evidence from Polynesia on those coasts but the currents would explain it.


    But isn't Easter Island in the middle if the S Pacific gyre?

    So, would it be more likely to find blown-off-course Polynesian artifacts in Antarctica than South America?

    One of the problems of finding evidence for these types of crossings is that a lot of it is underwater. The oceans have been rising since the last ice age so lots of stuff is underwater now that wasn’t 6000+ years ago.

    Read More
    • Replies: @ThreeCranes
    This is very true. What is today the Continental Shelf was the former coastline during the peak of the Ice Age i.e. 400' lower sea level.
    , @Lars Porsena
    That's another thing to keep in mind about a possible prehistoric south atlantic crossing in the mold of the Polynesians but many thousands of years earlier. Prior to 12000BC or so, those pacific islands would have been a lot larger, with atols and lagoons turning into islands and island chains turning into archipelagos. What today are the islands back then would have been the tops of mountains and volcanoes on islands.
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  157. @anonymous
    "But all this is moot if people in animal-fat-smeared skin boats or dugout logs hugged the coasts and ate the food to which they were adapted."

    Perhaps it could also be a bit of a mix, with people mostly dispersing by hugging the coast, but ever so often getting blown by storms a few hundred miles across some proto-Aleutian gaps... or perhaps from longer jumps from Formosa or around Japan.

    The Smithsonian has an article about Japanese drifting to Hawaii and potentially the Americas (by the way, note the female suvivors), this apparently became a not unheard of occurence in the century before Perry:

    "Borne on a Black Current: For thousands of years, the Pacific Ocean’s strong currents have swept shipwrecked Japanese sailors onto American shores", Curtis Ebbesmeyer and Eric Scigliano, Smithsonian, June 15, 2009:


    "...Flotsametrics and the Floating World: How One Man’s Obsession with Runaway Sneakers and Rubber Ducks Revolutionized Ocean Science, the authors explain how a vicious current has swept sailors from Japan all the way to the Americas many times over many millennia...

    ...another contingent of scholars makes a compelling case for repeated wash-ups by Japanese castaways over the past six thousand years... The doyen of this faction is Betty Meggers, an eminent anthropologist at the Smithsonian Institution, who has advanced this inquiry for more than fifty years...

    ...The Kuroshio (“Black Current,” named after the dark color it lends the horizon when viewed from the shore) is the Pacific Ocean’s answer to the Atlantic’s Gulf Stream...

    ...Around 1260 CE, a junk drifted nearly to North America, until the California Current caught it and sent it into the westbound trade winds, which deposited it near Wailuku, Maui. Six centuries later the oral history of the event had passed down... rescued the five... still alive on the junk, three men and two women. One, the captain, escaped the wreck wearing his sword; hence the incident has come to be known as the tale of the iron knife. The five castaways were treated like royalty...

    ...By 1650, according to John Stokes, curator of Honolulu’s Bishop Museum, four more vessels had washed up...

    ...Hawaiian legend recounts that the first Polynesian settlers there encountered diminutive menehune (“little people”)...

    ...University of Washington anthropologist George Quimby estimated, between 500 and 1750 CE some 187 junks drifted from Japan to the Americas. The number of drifts increased dramatically after 1603... the shoguns... demanded annual tributes of rice... tribute-laden vessels... had to traverse an exposed deepwater reach called Enshu-nada, the infamous Bay of Bad water...

    ...Of ninety drifting vessels documented by the Japanese expert Arakawa Hidetoshi, storms blew 68 percent out into the Black Current...

    ...To see where... drifted... the Natural Science Club in Choshi..., threw 750 bottles into the Kuroshio in October 1984 and 1985. By 1998, beachcombers had recovered 49: 7 along North America, 9 in the Hawaiian Islands, 13 in the Philippines, and 16 in the vicinity of Japan... A few swung back onto the Russian peninsula of Kamchatka, just north of Japan. Kamchatkans adopted the slang term dembei for bobbing castaways, after a Japanese fisherman named Dembei whose junk drifted there in 1697 —the first known contact between Japanese and Russians.

    ...By the mid-1800s an average of two Japanese derelicts appeared each year along the shipping lanes from California to Hawaii. Four showed up near Hawaii in one thirty-year period in the early nineteenth century; at least five crewmen survived. ...

    ...In October 1813, the junk Tokujo Maru left Tokyo, returning to Toba after delivering the shogun’s annual tribute. The nor’westers swept it out to sea and it drifted for 530 days, passing within a mile of California... 470 miles off Mexico, an American brig hailed the hulk and rescued the three survivors. After four years away, the Tokujo Maru’s captain, Jukichi, returned to Japan... secretly recorded his travels in A Captain’s Diary. Though it was officially banned, Jukichi’s Diary intrigued and influenced Japanese scholars..."

     

    "Funaosa Nikki: A Captain's Diary - Jukichi's Four-year Odyssey Across the Pacific, Through California, Alaska, Kamchatka, and Back to Japan, 1813-1817"

    "Funaosa nikki: a captain's diary : Jūkichi's four-year odyssey across the Pacific, through California, Alaska, Kamchatka, and back to Japan, 1813-1817"

    That was a very interesting post!

    “In October 1813, the junk Tokujo Marurecorded his travels in A Captain’s Diary”.

    I found a copy of 船長日記全.
    The ship displaced about 120 tons. It drifted for 484 days before the three survivors were picked up by the British merchant ship Horston near Santa Barbara, Calif. Those rescued were returned to Japan via Alaska and Kamchatka.
    At that time, although California was nominally Spanish (and the Horston was probably trading illegally), Russian ships were active in the Channel Islands. They used crews of Aleuts to hunt sea otters for their much-prized fur. The Alaskans were quite brutal to the native Indians; in fact, the tribe of the so-called lone woman of San Nicholas Island (subject of the novel, Island of the Blue Dolphins) was devastated by these Russian/Aleut hunters.
    Russia was interested in Japan at the time and seems to have had designs on Hokkaido. Maybe that’s why the three Japanese survivors were treated well and returned to Japan — an attempt at a diplomatic opening, perhaps.

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  158. @anonymous
    "But all this is moot if people in animal-fat-smeared skin boats or dugout logs hugged the coasts and ate the food to which they were adapted."

    Perhaps it could also be a bit of a mix, with people mostly dispersing by hugging the coast, but ever so often getting blown by storms a few hundred miles across some proto-Aleutian gaps... or perhaps from longer jumps from Formosa or around Japan.

    The Smithsonian has an article about Japanese drifting to Hawaii and potentially the Americas (by the way, note the female suvivors), this apparently became a not unheard of occurence in the century before Perry:

    "Borne on a Black Current: For thousands of years, the Pacific Ocean’s strong currents have swept shipwrecked Japanese sailors onto American shores", Curtis Ebbesmeyer and Eric Scigliano, Smithsonian, June 15, 2009:


    "...Flotsametrics and the Floating World: How One Man’s Obsession with Runaway Sneakers and Rubber Ducks Revolutionized Ocean Science, the authors explain how a vicious current has swept sailors from Japan all the way to the Americas many times over many millennia...

    ...another contingent of scholars makes a compelling case for repeated wash-ups by Japanese castaways over the past six thousand years... The doyen of this faction is Betty Meggers, an eminent anthropologist at the Smithsonian Institution, who has advanced this inquiry for more than fifty years...

    ...The Kuroshio (“Black Current,” named after the dark color it lends the horizon when viewed from the shore) is the Pacific Ocean’s answer to the Atlantic’s Gulf Stream...

    ...Around 1260 CE, a junk drifted nearly to North America, until the California Current caught it and sent it into the westbound trade winds, which deposited it near Wailuku, Maui. Six centuries later the oral history of the event had passed down... rescued the five... still alive on the junk, three men and two women. One, the captain, escaped the wreck wearing his sword; hence the incident has come to be known as the tale of the iron knife. The five castaways were treated like royalty...

    ...By 1650, according to John Stokes, curator of Honolulu’s Bishop Museum, four more vessels had washed up...

    ...Hawaiian legend recounts that the first Polynesian settlers there encountered diminutive menehune (“little people”)...

    ...University of Washington anthropologist George Quimby estimated, between 500 and 1750 CE some 187 junks drifted from Japan to the Americas. The number of drifts increased dramatically after 1603... the shoguns... demanded annual tributes of rice... tribute-laden vessels... had to traverse an exposed deepwater reach called Enshu-nada, the infamous Bay of Bad water...

    ...Of ninety drifting vessels documented by the Japanese expert Arakawa Hidetoshi, storms blew 68 percent out into the Black Current...

    ...To see where... drifted... the Natural Science Club in Choshi..., threw 750 bottles into the Kuroshio in October 1984 and 1985. By 1998, beachcombers had recovered 49: 7 along North America, 9 in the Hawaiian Islands, 13 in the Philippines, and 16 in the vicinity of Japan... A few swung back onto the Russian peninsula of Kamchatka, just north of Japan. Kamchatkans adopted the slang term dembei for bobbing castaways, after a Japanese fisherman named Dembei whose junk drifted there in 1697 —the first known contact between Japanese and Russians.

    ...By the mid-1800s an average of two Japanese derelicts appeared each year along the shipping lanes from California to Hawaii. Four showed up near Hawaii in one thirty-year period in the early nineteenth century; at least five crewmen survived. ...

    ...In October 1813, the junk Tokujo Maru left Tokyo, returning to Toba after delivering the shogun’s annual tribute. The nor’westers swept it out to sea and it drifted for 530 days, passing within a mile of California... 470 miles off Mexico, an American brig hailed the hulk and rescued the three survivors. After four years away, the Tokujo Maru’s captain, Jukichi, returned to Japan... secretly recorded his travels in A Captain’s Diary. Though it was officially banned, Jukichi’s Diary intrigued and influenced Japanese scholars..."

     

    "Funaosa Nikki: A Captain's Diary - Jukichi's Four-year Odyssey Across the Pacific, Through California, Alaska, Kamchatka, and Back to Japan, 1813-1817"

    "Funaosa nikki: a captain's diary : Jūkichi's four-year odyssey across the Pacific, through California, Alaska, Kamchatka, and back to Japan, 1813-1817"

    Very good post.

    I would like to point out however that it may mislead some readers into believing that it is possible to drift directly from Japan to Hawaii. It is not. The drift takes the boat generally first northeast towards the Pacific coast of North America thence southwards parallel to the coast and finally west across to Hawaii, following as it does some inner or outer trajectory of the clockwise gyre.

    Yachts used to sell relatively cheaply in Hawaii because Californians with an itch to sail the ocean blue head across on what is call a “sleighride” down wind and current-backed run to Hawaii. Having scratched that itch they then contemplated the return trip which involves sailing north to catch the “Black Current” you describe which carries them up towards Alaska then down to Vancouver Island, Straits of Juan de Fuca and San Francisco etc.

    Numerous sailers, having slaked their thirst for adventure, forego this leg of the trip and instead, put their boats up for sale in Hawaii. So daunting is the prospect of facing the cold rough northern journey home that others simply carry on to the South Sea Islands and on around the world since that is a more pleasant (warm and sunny) prospect.

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  159. @anonguy

    So, would it be more likely to find blown-off-course Polynesian artifacts in Antarctica than South America?
     
    One of the problems of finding evidence for these types of crossings is that a lot of it is underwater. The oceans have been rising since the last ice age so lots of stuff is underwater now that wasn't 6000+ years ago.

    This is very true. What is today the Continental Shelf was the former coastline during the peak of the Ice Age i.e. 400′ lower sea level.

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  160. @Hank Archer
    There was a controversy around 1990 in the Black Hills. There was a proposal to give part of the Federal lands there to the Sioux tribes as the area was their "traditional" homeland.

    The Crow objected, saying that they had lived there before the Sioux migrated into the area from Minnesota and the eastern Dakotas. Then the Shoshone suddenly remembered that the Crow had forced them from those lands. At that point the whole thing was dropped.

    That explodes the false narrative advanced by the handful of lefty trolls who periodically pop up here and claim that the Indians didn’t fight, subjugate, enslave and displace one another.

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  161. Commenter ohwilleke has a plausible scenario over at WestHunt.

    A single canoe of Andaman like people mixed in with a few of the Beringians before or as they crossed. They wouldn’t have intermixed with the whole group and this sub group happened to make it to Brazil & establish itself.

    It removes the need for Andaman like populations establishing themselves in the Americas.

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  162. @ThreeCranes
    Well, that's a lot of open ocean to cross in a dugout log.

    While the islands of the Pacific Ocean look substantial on a globe or in an Atlas, they are in reality tiny microscopic dots in a vast expanse of trackless sea. That the Polynesians found most of them perplexes modern sailors and geographers. Books such as East Is A Big Bird explore the complexities of Polynesian navigation. Much is made of their mysterious connection with the currents, colors, smells etc of the sea and their ability to read the direction of land from intersecting wave patterns etc. They were consummate astronomers.

    There is a risk here of romanticising this "in touch with the ocean" stuff as, for example, the Portuguese sailors were as in touch with the ocean as any humans could possibly be and they found crossing oceans burdensome to say the least. Foul water, scurvy etc. took their toll. Of 270 men who set forth with Magellan, fewer than 50 survived--and this was in decked ships equipped with decent sails.

    The east flowing current you call out is called the Roaring Forties. Beneath them is the Furious Fifties and the Screaming Sixties. They acquired these names due to the huge seas built up by their running unimpeded around the globe. There's no land down there to break up the circumpolar flow.The Roaring Forties are no place for a hollowed out log.

    Here's Wiki on global currents and winds: "A Chinese or Japanese sailor who sails east finds only thousands of miles of empty ocean and a few tiny islands. The Kuroshio Current tends to push his ship northeast into the westerlies and towards North America. There are records of unlucky Japanese fishermen being blown to North America, but no records of any who sailed home."

    I'm not trying to know anything here. I'm as blind as everyone else. And on youz guys' side of the argument, just as a guy in a Klepper can push off from North Africa and land in the West Indies (Dr. Hans Lindemann in 1957), so too can someone leave Asia and drift to North America. All they've got to do is survive.

    Dr. Lindemann studied the minimal diet needed to survive being castaway. He took beer and condensed milk believing that these, supplemented by fish, would provide complete nutrition.

    But all this is moot if people in animal-fat-smeared skin boats or dugout logs hugged the coasts and ate the food to which they were adapted. They could move their entire culture--one that was adapted to shore life--with them. There's just so much less of a leap of faith involved.

    While the islands of the Pacific Ocean look substantial on a globe or in an Atlas, they are in reality tiny microscopic dots in a vast expanse of trackless sea. That the Polynesians found most of them perplexes modern sailors and geographers.

    Does it perplex them? I read somewhere that it’s no big mystery. The proximity of an island has a lot of signs, for example the closer you get, the more branches of trees etc. you’ll find in the ocean, then there are different types of seabirds, each with a maximum distance from an island, and similar things. They said that basically each island radiates signs of its present to an area roughly 200 miles in diameter, so that is the size of the area they had to find. Once they found it, they could send expeditions (usually when conditions on the original island became too crowded) with a couple boats, and probably at most a few such expeditions were enough to get within visible distance of the island. Visibility was way higher for these people, because for genetic reasons they had/have much better eyes than we do. They could see things much farther away. (While the prevalence of myopia is much lower among them.)

    So, at least according to what I read, it’s not a mystery at all.

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    • Replies: @ThreeCranes
    Maybe the mystery of it was as much the why as it was the how. Why would people who were living in paradise be driven or impelled to continue to explore until they had discovered virtually all the inhabitable islands of the warm Pacific?

    Maybe it's my poor choice of words but I'm just attempting to communicate the incredible improbability of the feat. The Pacific is vast and the islands tiny and scattered. I'm trying to put their accomplishment into perspective. It may not be a "mystery at all" but it was certainly a triumph of courage, daring and technical mastery.

    "We the Navigators" is another good book about the how.
    , @Steve Sailer
    Traditional Polynesian navigation has been revived in recent decades with canoe voyages from Hawaii to Tahiti.
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  163. @ThreeCranes
    Well, that's a lot of open ocean to cross in a dugout log.

    While the islands of the Pacific Ocean look substantial on a globe or in an Atlas, they are in reality tiny microscopic dots in a vast expanse of trackless sea. That the Polynesians found most of them perplexes modern sailors and geographers. Books such as East Is A Big Bird explore the complexities of Polynesian navigation. Much is made of their mysterious connection with the currents, colors, smells etc of the sea and their ability to read the direction of land from intersecting wave patterns etc. They were consummate astronomers.

    There is a risk here of romanticising this "in touch with the ocean" stuff as, for example, the Portuguese sailors were as in touch with the ocean as any humans could possibly be and they found crossing oceans burdensome to say the least. Foul water, scurvy etc. took their toll. Of 270 men who set forth with Magellan, fewer than 50 survived--and this was in decked ships equipped with decent sails.

    The east flowing current you call out is called the Roaring Forties. Beneath them is the Furious Fifties and the Screaming Sixties. They acquired these names due to the huge seas built up by their running unimpeded around the globe. There's no land down there to break up the circumpolar flow.The Roaring Forties are no place for a hollowed out log.

    Here's Wiki on global currents and winds: "A Chinese or Japanese sailor who sails east finds only thousands of miles of empty ocean and a few tiny islands. The Kuroshio Current tends to push his ship northeast into the westerlies and towards North America. There are records of unlucky Japanese fishermen being blown to North America, but no records of any who sailed home."

    I'm not trying to know anything here. I'm as blind as everyone else. And on youz guys' side of the argument, just as a guy in a Klepper can push off from North Africa and land in the West Indies (Dr. Hans Lindemann in 1957), so too can someone leave Asia and drift to North America. All they've got to do is survive.

    Dr. Lindemann studied the minimal diet needed to survive being castaway. He took beer and condensed milk believing that these, supplemented by fish, would provide complete nutrition.

    But all this is moot if people in animal-fat-smeared skin boats or dugout logs hugged the coasts and ate the food to which they were adapted. They could move their entire culture--one that was adapted to shore life--with them. There's just so much less of a leap of faith involved.

    While the islands of the Pacific Ocean look substantial on a globe or in an Atlas, they are in reality tiny microscopic dots in a vast expanse of trackless sea. That the Polynesians found most of them perplexes modern sailors and geographers. Books such as East Is A Big Bird explore the complexities of Polynesian navigation. Much is made of their mysterious connection with the currents, colors, smells etc of the sea and their ability to read the direction of land from intersecting wave patterns etc. They were consummate astronomers.

    I figure that for every successful expedition (in the sense of making landfall before running out of provisions) there must have been many more unsuccessful expeditions.

    I’d also note that modern Polynesians didn’t seem to have had much of a problem with cannibalism until they were colonized by Westerners and had that practice outlawed by force. One imagines that if a share of your crew who helps get your vessel into the trade winds and current early on can become your provisions over the later course of a voyage, you’re extending your range and viability a good deal.

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    • Replies: @Jim
    One thing that Polynesian mariners were apparently aware of - In the waters around Pacific islands there are layers of bacteria living in the water living off nutrient rich sediment flow from the islands. Some of these bacteria are phosphorescent and the light they produce can be seen very faintly at night. This phosphorescence extends for quite a distance around islands. The Polynesian mariners looked for this light at night. If they saw it they knew land was fairly close. If the light was getting brighter they knew they were approaching land. If it was getting fainter they knew they going away from land.

    By the way one hardly has to be a consummate astronomer to navigate at night in the Pacific near the equator. The Southern Cross is an immediate eye-catcher and is low to the Southern Horizon. The Milky Way is easily visible and the Magellanic Clouds are on the south side of the Milky Way. Although you might not notice them at once like you would the Southern Cross once you know to look for them they can be easily spotted. They are faint but easily recognizable. The circumpolar constellations are easily visible. A glance at Cassiopeia will tell you the time.

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  164. @Anonymous
    What explains the lower test scores of Amerindian Asians versus East Asians?

    I used to wonder about that myself when I first became aware of the race/IQ issue.
    But then I read somewhere that Amerindians managed to escape the harsh climate that brought the mean IQ of East Asians to its present level of approx. 105 by migrating to the more benign environment of the Americas. Granted pre-Columbian Mesoamerica developed some pretty advanced civilizations so the present estimate for average Amerindian IQ is in the 87-89 range might seem hard to square, but “Maj. Kong’s” theory that the smart Indians generally bred out with the Spanish conquistadors might explain something.
    But keep in mind it was the Spanish who conquered the Aztecs and not the other way around so I wouldn’t be surprised if Amerindians were less brainy (on average) that both Europeans and their distant Asian cousins.

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  165. @anonguy

    So, would it be more likely to find blown-off-course Polynesian artifacts in Antarctica than South America?
     
    One of the problems of finding evidence for these types of crossings is that a lot of it is underwater. The oceans have been rising since the last ice age so lots of stuff is underwater now that wasn't 6000+ years ago.

    That’s another thing to keep in mind about a possible prehistoric south atlantic crossing in the mold of the Polynesians but many thousands of years earlier. Prior to 12000BC or so, those pacific islands would have been a lot larger, with atols and lagoons turning into islands and island chains turning into archipelagos. What today are the islands back then would have been the tops of mountains and volcanoes on islands.

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  166. perhaps during the last global warming period those folks along the coastlines were forced by those “outbackers” to travel across the sea to other places

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  167. @anonguy

    Currently the oldest archaeological find in the Americas I’ve heard of is Monte Verde, at the southern tip of Chile on the other side of the world from Beringia. It was originally conservatively dated at about 10,000BC, with the team the worked on it ranging in it’s estimates between 10,000BC for the conservatives and 24,000BC for the kooks off the record. Then it started marching slowly back to 14,000BC and Wiki says it’s now considered to be at least 16,000BC. I don’t think they have any genetic data on who the occupants were but they know there were people living in yurts and hunting mammoth in the south of South America way back into the ice age.
     
    Another alternative is it was just an ultimately unsuccessful isolate. Perhaps some people blown off somewhere to an unknown shore. Maybe they prospered for some generations, as a genetic isolate with no other humans nearby. Any number of things could have done them in, climate change, disease, maybe some flaw in their very limited gene pools.

    So kind of a more enduring but ultimately unsuccessful Swiss Family Robinson scenario.

    Wouldn't be surprised if there were many types of these events in human history, whether by land or sea.

    That’s essentially the model for the Viking immigration that crossed the North Atlantic before the Spaniards cross the Central Atlantic. It was a bonafide migration to the new world if ultimately an unsuccessful one, barring maybe some isolated indian dudes here or there who have weird neanderthal gene markers that may have come via swedes or someplace else, plus some stone ruins.

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  168. @reiner Tor

    While the islands of the Pacific Ocean look substantial on a globe or in an Atlas, they are in reality tiny microscopic dots in a vast expanse of trackless sea. That the Polynesians found most of them perplexes modern sailors and geographers.
     
    Does it perplex them? I read somewhere that it's no big mystery. The proximity of an island has a lot of signs, for example the closer you get, the more branches of trees etc. you'll find in the ocean, then there are different types of seabirds, each with a maximum distance from an island, and similar things. They said that basically each island radiates signs of its present to an area roughly 200 miles in diameter, so that is the size of the area they had to find. Once they found it, they could send expeditions (usually when conditions on the original island became too crowded) with a couple boats, and probably at most a few such expeditions were enough to get within visible distance of the island. Visibility was way higher for these people, because for genetic reasons they had/have much better eyes than we do. They could see things much farther away. (While the prevalence of myopia is much lower among them.)

    So, at least according to what I read, it's not a mystery at all.

    Maybe the mystery of it was as much the why as it was the how. Why would people who were living in paradise be driven or impelled to continue to explore until they had discovered virtually all the inhabitable islands of the warm Pacific?

    Maybe it’s my poor choice of words but I’m just attempting to communicate the incredible improbability of the feat. The Pacific is vast and the islands tiny and scattered. I’m trying to put their accomplishment into perspective. It may not be a “mystery at all” but it was certainly a triumph of courage, daring and technical mastery.

    “We the Navigators” is another good book about the how.

    Read More
    • Replies: @reiner Tor

    Maybe the mystery of it was as much the why as it was the how. Why would people who were living in paradise be driven or impelled to continue to explore until they had discovered virtually all the inhabitable islands of the warm Pacific?
     
    The paradise got overpopulated and often descended into tribal civil war and cannibalism, and even where they managed to introduce peaceful population control, it was not very popular and some people always wanted to escape to another paradise where they didn’t have to kill their own babies so often.

    It may not be a “mystery at all” but it was certainly a triumph of courage, daring and technical mastery.
     
    I wholeheartedly agree on this point.
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  169. @ThreeCranes
    Thor Heyerdahl was not a cheat.

    A cheat would have taken the tow surreptitiously and attempted to conceal the fact. In contrast, Heyerdahl admitted right up front that they had tried and repeatedly failed to get off shore and finally were compelled to take the tow. All this was explained in the opening chapter of his book--hardly the tactics of a cheat.

    An honest man would have decided that his voyage, with its towed start, was bogus, and he’d have given up until he could work out a way of getting offshore without a tow.

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  170. Sea levels were as much a 600 feet lower during the heights of previous glacial periods. A lot of the islands of Southeast Asia were not islands back then, but continuous land. During the last glacial maximum, there was a land bridge to Asia and ice free corridors that would have allowed travel to the lower 48 of North America and eventually, to South America.

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    • Replies: @gcochran
    The ice-free corridors came later.
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  171. @Steve Sailer
    Polynesian yams apparently came from South American over the last few thousand years. Did they get to Polynesia via Thor Heyerdahl-like South Americans voyaging to Polynesia or did Polynesians get to South America, turn around and go back?

    Given that the Polynesians were brilliant seamen and navigators, and the South Americans were not (as far as I know), my money is on Polynesians from Easter Island striking the coast of Chile but not attempting a settlement because it was already occupied. Reminiscent of the Norse retreating from North America and returning to Greenland.

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  172. @ThreeCranes
    Well, that's a lot of open ocean to cross in a dugout log.

    While the islands of the Pacific Ocean look substantial on a globe or in an Atlas, they are in reality tiny microscopic dots in a vast expanse of trackless sea. That the Polynesians found most of them perplexes modern sailors and geographers. Books such as East Is A Big Bird explore the complexities of Polynesian navigation. Much is made of their mysterious connection with the currents, colors, smells etc of the sea and their ability to read the direction of land from intersecting wave patterns etc. They were consummate astronomers.

    There is a risk here of romanticising this "in touch with the ocean" stuff as, for example, the Portuguese sailors were as in touch with the ocean as any humans could possibly be and they found crossing oceans burdensome to say the least. Foul water, scurvy etc. took their toll. Of 270 men who set forth with Magellan, fewer than 50 survived--and this was in decked ships equipped with decent sails.

    The east flowing current you call out is called the Roaring Forties. Beneath them is the Furious Fifties and the Screaming Sixties. They acquired these names due to the huge seas built up by their running unimpeded around the globe. There's no land down there to break up the circumpolar flow.The Roaring Forties are no place for a hollowed out log.

    Here's Wiki on global currents and winds: "A Chinese or Japanese sailor who sails east finds only thousands of miles of empty ocean and a few tiny islands. The Kuroshio Current tends to push his ship northeast into the westerlies and towards North America. There are records of unlucky Japanese fishermen being blown to North America, but no records of any who sailed home."

    I'm not trying to know anything here. I'm as blind as everyone else. And on youz guys' side of the argument, just as a guy in a Klepper can push off from North Africa and land in the West Indies (Dr. Hans Lindemann in 1957), so too can someone leave Asia and drift to North America. All they've got to do is survive.

    Dr. Lindemann studied the minimal diet needed to survive being castaway. He took beer and condensed milk believing that these, supplemented by fish, would provide complete nutrition.

    But all this is moot if people in animal-fat-smeared skin boats or dugout logs hugged the coasts and ate the food to which they were adapted. They could move their entire culture--one that was adapted to shore life--with them. There's just so much less of a leap of faith involved.

    “beer and condensed milk believing that these, supplemented by fish, would provide complete nutrition”: and to think that people mock North European cuisine.

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  173. @anonguy

    Currently the oldest archaeological find in the Americas I’ve heard of is Monte Verde, at the southern tip of Chile on the other side of the world from Beringia. It was originally conservatively dated at about 10,000BC, with the team the worked on it ranging in it’s estimates between 10,000BC for the conservatives and 24,000BC for the kooks off the record. Then it started marching slowly back to 14,000BC and Wiki says it’s now considered to be at least 16,000BC. I don’t think they have any genetic data on who the occupants were but they know there were people living in yurts and hunting mammoth in the south of South America way back into the ice age.
     
    Another alternative is it was just an ultimately unsuccessful isolate. Perhaps some people blown off somewhere to an unknown shore. Maybe they prospered for some generations, as a genetic isolate with no other humans nearby. Any number of things could have done them in, climate change, disease, maybe some flaw in their very limited gene pools.

    So kind of a more enduring but ultimately unsuccessful Swiss Family Robinson scenario.

    Wouldn't be surprised if there were many types of these events in human history, whether by land or sea.

    ” hunting mammoth in the south of South America way back into the ice age”: goodness me, how did the mammoths get there?

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    • Replies: @gcochran
    Gomphotheres. Presumably they walked.
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  174. Heyerdahl was writing in Kon-Tiki about South American “Long Ears” sailing to Easter Island before the Polynesians arrived. He took a picture of one group showing they had some reddish in their hair, and they were familiar with reeds.

    In the Ra Expeditions, Heyerdahl sailed from Egypt (I think) to the Americas, to demonstrate how easily bearded white men could have sailed to the Americas.

    Heyerdahl also tells of pictures of whites in Amerindian art. A few of these pictures are widely known on the Internet, but he tells of others. He also presents additional evidence.

    Heyerdahl explains how the oceans were not entirely barriers as we think of them. The Ra Expeditions using reed ships built by present-day Amerindians, similar to lesser reed ships built in Lake Chad, was far more interesting than the Kon-Tiki voyage on a Balsa raft.

    The reason we never hear the details today is no one wants it thought that whites could have arrived in the Americas well before the Vikings.

    -

    Similarly, in the Canary Islands (Africa), the native Guanches had built small pyramids and were fairly white. Present day residents of the islands are said to still be significantly descended from these natives. Heyerdahl should be of interest to many Unz readers.

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    • Replies: @Thirdeye
    The Ra voyage was on an Egyptian-type papyrus boat and it reached a soggy demise in the middle of the Atlantic, suggesting the opposite of what Heyerdahl wanted to prove. There's a lot of pish-posh about early transatlantic contact with North America. Europeans were moving about in glorified rowboats until Arabs introduced them to the technology originated by Pacific Islanders that enabled crossing oceans.
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  175. @Inquiring Mind
    I have never figured out how Mr. Heyerdahl fits with the good thinking establishment.

    He was lionized as a Great Explorer by National Geographic and other august institutions as a latter-day Amundsen, but actual scholars of the settlement of Polynesia regarded him as a quack and a crank.

    What motivated the Kon Tiki expedition is his time spent in Tahiti where he observed the prevailing winds and ocean currents going in the other direction from Taiwan, where at least DNA studies indicate the Polynesians came from. Heyerdahl formed the theory that the Siberians/Beringians who crossed from modern day Russia to Alaska navigated their way down to Chile and then "hung a right" to head westward to Rapa Nui (Easter Island) to make their way to Tahiti. His gang of merry Norwegians on the balsa wood cork Kon Tiki were to show how the proto-Polynesians could bob their way westward until they made landfall, taking however long it needed because they could "live off the ocean" as Heyerdahls crew did getting their nutrition and hydration from the fish they could catch.

    Besides the genetic evidence going against Heyerdahl, didn't the Polynesians have advanced sailing tech in the form of outrigger or catamaran boats with keels and fins that allowed them to "tack" up wind? Far from being Kon Tiki rafts, their rigs would be competitive in America's Cup were they not banned for features that would be considered cheating?

    Heyerdahl also appealed to legends of lost tribes of blue-eyed peoples among both the South Americans as well as Polynesians? Supporting conjectures that other races crossed from Siberia oer into the Americas along with the proto-Indians?

    You need to read the Ra Expeditions to more completely understand Heyerdahl. It’s about white bearded men sailing on reed ships from Egypt.

    And he sails over on a reed ship constructed by present-day Amerindians based partly on Egyptian pictures. He tried on a reed ship constructed by Africans from Lake Chad, but the tech had been partly lost there. The Amerindian reed ship technology was still good.

    Heyerdahl praised his ship, claiming it functioned very well far away from the coast. He complained about pollution and modern conflicts.

    -

    Kon-Tiki is best understood as including the descendants of these same white bearded men, though not pure-blooded descendants.

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  176. @gcochran
    The ancestry in question isn't Polynesian, isn't recent, and any Amerindian ancestry among Polynesians is recent, post-Columbian. As for Thor Heyerdahl, someone should dig up his bones.

    What about Easter Island? And Heyerdahl wasn’t arguing “Amerindian DNA” exactly. He was arguing for a significantly different hybrid DNA traveling from South America to Easter Island. Look up his Ra Expeditions book. I just posted 2 more lengthy posts on this here, so I assume it would be rude for me to comment further. Heyerdahl provides other evidence, and there wouldn’t be much needed genetic evidence to support his theory of a small population of white bearded men traveling over from Egypt.

    If you have trouble locating a copy of Ra Expeditions, I can send you my copy. I bought it used on Amazon for about a dollar.

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    • Replies: @ThreeCranes
    A lot of people don't want Heyerdahl to be right because they won't admit that they don't have the gumption and fortitude to get off their asses, build a boat and set forth on a hazardous journey. So they elide, nit pick and gloss over his main points.

    His voyages did have the salutary effect of stimulating other adventurous souls to undertake similar voyages in sundry traditional craft.
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  177. @Weaver1
    What about Easter Island? And Heyerdahl wasn't arguing "Amerindian DNA" exactly. He was arguing for a significantly different hybrid DNA traveling from South America to Easter Island. Look up his Ra Expeditions book. I just posted 2 more lengthy posts on this here, so I assume it would be rude for me to comment further. Heyerdahl provides other evidence, and there wouldn't be much needed genetic evidence to support his theory of a small population of white bearded men traveling over from Egypt.

    If you have trouble locating a copy of Ra Expeditions, I can send you my copy. I bought it used on Amazon for about a dollar.

    A lot of people don’t want Heyerdahl to be right because they won’t admit that they don’t have the gumption and fortitude to get off their asses, build a boat and set forth on a hazardous journey. So they elide, nit pick and gloss over his main points.

    His voyages did have the salutary effect of stimulating other adventurous souls to undertake similar voyages in sundry traditional craft.

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    • Replies: @Thirdeye
    Heyerdahl's fortitude didn't make him right. It made people want to believe he was right, but he wasn't.
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  178. @ThreeCranes
    Maybe the mystery of it was as much the why as it was the how. Why would people who were living in paradise be driven or impelled to continue to explore until they had discovered virtually all the inhabitable islands of the warm Pacific?

    Maybe it's my poor choice of words but I'm just attempting to communicate the incredible improbability of the feat. The Pacific is vast and the islands tiny and scattered. I'm trying to put their accomplishment into perspective. It may not be a "mystery at all" but it was certainly a triumph of courage, daring and technical mastery.

    "We the Navigators" is another good book about the how.

    Maybe the mystery of it was as much the why as it was the how. Why would people who were living in paradise be driven or impelled to continue to explore until they had discovered virtually all the inhabitable islands of the warm Pacific?

    The paradise got overpopulated and often descended into tribal civil war and cannibalism, and even where they managed to introduce peaceful population control, it was not very popular and some people always wanted to escape to another paradise where they didn’t have to kill their own babies so often.

    It may not be a “mystery at all” but it was certainly a triumph of courage, daring and technical mastery.

    I wholeheartedly agree on this point.

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    • Replies: @Jim
    Yes - overpopulation could quickly become a problem. One thing to keep in mind is that huge islands like Fiji or New Caledonia or New Zealand are the exception. The great majority of islands are small and local resources could be easily destroyed by overexploitation. In fact it is known from archaeology that many small Pacific Islands that have been uninhabited in historical times were settled at some time in the past and then abandoned.
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  179. What seems most likely to me is admixture of the Andaman component with more northern Australoids prior to the latter’s waterborne migration to North America that preceded the migration of northern Eurasians through Beringia (although not by much, and there was probably genetic and cultural mixture of the two groups after the melting of Alaska Coast Range glaciers opened contact between the interior and the coast). The Andaman group fostered the first known marine technology for fishing and crossing large bodies of water at least 40,000 years ago. As such, they were much more mobile than other humans. Marine technology spread up the eastern coast of Asia and through the Ryukyu chain (which was much less daunting to travel with lower sea levels) to Japan, and with it most likely some Andaman genes. With the approach of the Last Glacial Maximum there was a migration of Australoid populations via a northern land bridge to Japan, who engulfed the southern migrants and became familiar with their marine technology. The initial wave of migration out of northern Japan and the Amur coastal region was largely descended from the northern Australoids, with the incentive of rising sea levels and a moderating northern climate. Those who stayed home gave rise to the Jomon. Those who followed the archipelago food trail to North America became Amerindians.

    There is also evidence for a significant demographic displacement of the early Amerindians, associated with the second Eurasian wave around 7000 B. P. Distinct Amerindian populations retreated to refugia such as portions of the B. C. coast, the Santa Barbara Channel Islands, and areas south of the Sonoran Desert. That history provides a problem for modern tribes in North America who make claims of being the first inhabitants since time immemorial. Anthropologists do a lot of politically motivated tap-dancing over the evidence so as to minimize disturbance to that narrative.

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    • Replies: @Eagle Eye
    Here is an interesting, detailed paper about an excavation of a cave in the Ryukyus (between Southern Japan and Taiwan):

    Advanced maritime adaptation in the western Pacific coastal region extends back to 35,000–30,000 years before present"
     
    The paper suggests that:

    (1) Early humans were able to reach islands such as the Ryukyus as early as 35,000 BP. There may have been successive waves of waterborne settlers.

    (2) Early humans had adapted to a maritime lifestyle, e.g. crafting the world's oldest fishhooks.

    (3) They learned to live largely without reliance of stone tools etc. using shells etc. instead.

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  180. @reiner Tor

    While the islands of the Pacific Ocean look substantial on a globe or in an Atlas, they are in reality tiny microscopic dots in a vast expanse of trackless sea. That the Polynesians found most of them perplexes modern sailors and geographers.
     
    Does it perplex them? I read somewhere that it's no big mystery. The proximity of an island has a lot of signs, for example the closer you get, the more branches of trees etc. you'll find in the ocean, then there are different types of seabirds, each with a maximum distance from an island, and similar things. They said that basically each island radiates signs of its present to an area roughly 200 miles in diameter, so that is the size of the area they had to find. Once they found it, they could send expeditions (usually when conditions on the original island became too crowded) with a couple boats, and probably at most a few such expeditions were enough to get within visible distance of the island. Visibility was way higher for these people, because for genetic reasons they had/have much better eyes than we do. They could see things much farther away. (While the prevalence of myopia is much lower among them.)

    So, at least according to what I read, it's not a mystery at all.

    Traditional Polynesian navigation has been revived in recent decades with canoe voyages from Hawaii to Tahiti.

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  181. @Jim
    The Crow may have lived there before the Dakota but probably not for very long. The Siouian-Yuchi languages are spoken across a wide arc with the Black Hills being the extreme westernmost point of this range while the Yuchi of North Carolina is at the extreme eastern point and the Biloxi on the Gulf Coast are the most southern.

    However the Dakota have been in the Black Hills since the end of the eighteenth century.

    I should have mentioned that the Crow are Siouan speakers. As the Black Hills are at the extreme western edge of the Siouan-Yuchi family both the Crow and Dakota are probably recent arrivals there. Quite aside from the historical evidence on this the Dakota dialects spoken over a wide area show little divergence indicating that they have spread apart quite recently. As the Black Hills are at the extreme Western edge of the area in which Siouan-Yuchi languages are spoken it is clear that the Siouan speakers there have only recently migrated into the Black Hills from the east.

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  182. @gcochran
    You could walk from Australia to Tasmania in the ice age.

    Thanks.

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  183. @The Only Catholic Unionist
    Read the book. It rains quite a bit. They collected it. (Also, the fish would all too often just flop on board, which is great until you get something big and/or dangerous.)

    Some years ago three Samoan teenagers were blown out to sea and were given up for dead and given funeral services. Months later their little fishing boat washed up on Fiji with all three alive and in surprisingly good conditions. They had drunk rainwater and had caught flying fish. I remember traveling on boats on the Pacific and often seeing flying fish. I also often saw whales but they would not have been so easy to catch.

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    • Replies: @Jim
    I should have said ships not boats although they were pretty small ships.
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  184. @Seth Largo
    Too lazy to find citations, but Inuit do well on IQ tests. They fall between whites and Hispanics, closer to the white mean, I believe.

    I think they score in the low 90′s which is much higher than most hunter-gatherers.

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  185. @ThreeCranes
    I think--and from perusing many of the comments I surmise that I may be the most knowledgeable seafarer posting here--that you're right. Even today kayakers--some even in skin (polyester that is) covered replicas of primitive boats--regularly make the trip down from Juneau to Seattle. In other words, crossing from Russia to Alaska is doable in primitive craft. Crossing the Pacific isn't.

    Early humans hugged the coasts whenever possible. Imagine how difficult it was to cross wild country--bushwhacking through thick forest over mountains. Didn't happen that way. Look at what we do know; all early settlement by whites on the East coast, in California, Washington etc. was by way of traveling up rivers and it is far easier to cross a river by boat than to swim, especially with your family and cultural artifacts in tow. Civilization has always followed the coasts and rivers.

    Some of you disparage Heyerdahl but you miss the main point. What he was mainly interested in proving was that early Man was a much better seafarer than we give him credit for. For this he was then, just as today, ridiculed by too many armchair anthropologists who were and are limited by their experience and can only conceive of traveling from the comfort of an automobile, blithely crossing rivers and mountains as though they were no obstacle at all.

    By voyaging in a primitive craft he was first and foremost trying to shake anthropologists out of their "dogmatic slumber"; to demonstrate in no uncertain terms that early people had such capabilities. Everything else was secondary.

    In traditional Micronesian cultures trips of about 100 miles between islands were routinely done. The trips would generally be made at night in calm weather and speeds of 10 knots were sometimes maintained.

    Canoe trips from Palau and Yap to the Philippines were fairly commonly made. The distance from Palau to the Philippines is about 500 miles.

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  186. @reiner Tor

    Maybe the mystery of it was as much the why as it was the how. Why would people who were living in paradise be driven or impelled to continue to explore until they had discovered virtually all the inhabitable islands of the warm Pacific?
     
    The paradise got overpopulated and often descended into tribal civil war and cannibalism, and even where they managed to introduce peaceful population control, it was not very popular and some people always wanted to escape to another paradise where they didn’t have to kill their own babies so often.

    It may not be a “mystery at all” but it was certainly a triumph of courage, daring and technical mastery.
     
    I wholeheartedly agree on this point.

    Yes – overpopulation could quickly become a problem. One thing to keep in mind is that huge islands like Fiji or New Caledonia or New Zealand are the exception. The great majority of islands are small and local resources could be easily destroyed by overexploitation. In fact it is known from archaeology that many small Pacific Islands that have been uninhabited in historical times were settled at some time in the past and then abandoned.

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  187. @The Only Catholic Unionist
    Jose Salvador Alvarenga was a Salvadoran fishing out of a Pacific Coast Mexican fishing village who was caught in a storm, lost his engine, and drifted (no engine, no sail) for basically a year until he finally made landfall in the Marshall Islands. And that was a guy who was not prepared for a long voyage. Experienced seamen who were prepared for a long trip could absolutely have done it.

    Amazing. Imagine living in a small boat on the Pacific all by one’s self for a whole year. Every night the huge Pacific sky above one and blackness all around. Nothing to do but count the meteors.

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  188. @Jim
    Some years ago three Samoan teenagers were blown out to sea and were given up for dead and given funeral services. Months later their little fishing boat washed up on Fiji with all three alive and in surprisingly good conditions. They had drunk rainwater and had caught flying fish. I remember traveling on boats on the Pacific and often seeing flying fish. I also often saw whales but they would not have been so easy to catch.

    I should have said ships not boats although they were pretty small ships.

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  189. @Alec Leamas

    While the islands of the Pacific Ocean look substantial on a globe or in an Atlas, they are in reality tiny microscopic dots in a vast expanse of trackless sea. That the Polynesians found most of them perplexes modern sailors and geographers. Books such as East Is A Big Bird explore the complexities of Polynesian navigation. Much is made of their mysterious connection with the currents, colors, smells etc of the sea and their ability to read the direction of land from intersecting wave patterns etc. They were consummate astronomers.
     
    I figure that for every successful expedition (in the sense of making landfall before running out of provisions) there must have been many more unsuccessful expeditions.

    I'd also note that modern Polynesians didn't seem to have had much of a problem with cannibalism until they were colonized by Westerners and had that practice outlawed by force. One imagines that if a share of your crew who helps get your vessel into the trade winds and current early on can become your provisions over the later course of a voyage, you're extending your range and viability a good deal.

    One thing that Polynesian mariners were apparently aware of – In the waters around Pacific islands there are layers of bacteria living in the water living off nutrient rich sediment flow from the islands. Some of these bacteria are phosphorescent and the light they produce can be seen very faintly at night. This phosphorescence extends for quite a distance around islands. The Polynesian mariners looked for this light at night. If they saw it they knew land was fairly close. If the light was getting brighter they knew they were approaching land. If it was getting fainter they knew they going away from land.

    By the way one hardly has to be a consummate astronomer to navigate at night in the Pacific near the equator. The Southern Cross is an immediate eye-catcher and is low to the Southern Horizon. The Milky Way is easily visible and the Magellanic Clouds are on the south side of the Milky Way. Although you might not notice them at once like you would the Southern Cross once you know to look for them they can be easily spotted. They are faint but easily recognizable. The circumpolar constellations are easily visible. A glance at Cassiopeia will tell you the time.

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  190. @The Only Catholic Unionist
    The Kon-Tiki guy is the late Thor Heyerdahl. Another, lesser-known figure was Eric de Bisschop, who actually managed to make a trip eastward, which would be more relevant to Mr. Sailer's line of inquiry. Unfortunately, it is my sense that marine archaeology doesn't have the capability to tell when such voyages were first possible in relation to human population of the Americas.

    There’s a pretty good record of when Polynesians developed the sail technology that enables transoceanic voyages. It is much more recent than the settlement of the Americas and what evidence there is of Polynesian contact with South America suggests that it occurred close to the Columbian era.

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    • Replies: @Disordered
    You are probably right. As an Ecuadorian, I've often heard the Polynesian theory, and it rings at least partly true because there are some natives and even some of the browner mestizos that have certain South Asian phenotypical characteristics (brown with slanted eyes) that cannot be found in, say, descendants of more recent immigrants from China or Japan, who even keep their ancient last names. Even in my family I have relatives with slanted eyes who cannot recall any Asian ancestor, who also tend to be browner. That said, such mixing probably happened as you said, not for a long time and not widespread; from what I've seen in Ecuador, these characteristics are more prthe natives from the coast
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  191. @Lars Porsena
    But why say there is no precedent for crossing the South Pacific just because people today don't kayak it? We know the polynesians and others made it all the way to hawaii in the middle of the damn ocean with essentially paleolithic boats. And all the south pacific islands. I think the longest open ocean hop of the whole trip is between South America and Easter Island, and somebody had to have made it in one direction or the other. I could believe sailors coming west from anywhere in South America might not find Easter Island and might not go on past it to Tahiti, but I can't believe that sailors who found their way from indonesia all the way to Easter Island couldn't have found South America.

    The long jumps were from Samoa to the Marquesas, from the Marquesas to the Hawaiian Islands and to Easter Island and the longest of all from Tahiti to New Zealand.

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  192. @ThreeCranes
    I think--and from perusing many of the comments I surmise that I may be the most knowledgeable seafarer posting here--that you're right. Even today kayakers--some even in skin (polyester that is) covered replicas of primitive boats--regularly make the trip down from Juneau to Seattle. In other words, crossing from Russia to Alaska is doable in primitive craft. Crossing the Pacific isn't.

    Early humans hugged the coasts whenever possible. Imagine how difficult it was to cross wild country--bushwhacking through thick forest over mountains. Didn't happen that way. Look at what we do know; all early settlement by whites on the East coast, in California, Washington etc. was by way of traveling up rivers and it is far easier to cross a river by boat than to swim, especially with your family and cultural artifacts in tow. Civilization has always followed the coasts and rivers.

    Some of you disparage Heyerdahl but you miss the main point. What he was mainly interested in proving was that early Man was a much better seafarer than we give him credit for. For this he was then, just as today, ridiculed by too many armchair anthropologists who were and are limited by their experience and can only conceive of traveling from the comfort of an automobile, blithely crossing rivers and mountains as though they were no obstacle at all.

    By voyaging in a primitive craft he was first and foremost trying to shake anthropologists out of their "dogmatic slumber"; to demonstrate in no uncertain terms that early people had such capabilities. Everything else was secondary.

    There was good seafaring technology dating back tens of thousands of years, but the Heyerdahl’s proposed voyagers were not in possession of it and there is no evidence that they possessed the oceanic navigation skills to guide a craft to Tahiti. The Polynesians had the technology and the skills that the Peruvians lacked. Tahiti to South America by Polynesians is like a skilled marksman using an accurate rifle from 100 yards hitting a barn door. South America to Tahiti on a balsa raft is like someone using a 17th Century blunderbuss with only the skill required to hit the barn door from 20 yards hitting a much smaller target from 100 yards.

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  193. @ThreeCranes
    A lot of people don't want Heyerdahl to be right because they won't admit that they don't have the gumption and fortitude to get off their asses, build a boat and set forth on a hazardous journey. So they elide, nit pick and gloss over his main points.

    His voyages did have the salutary effect of stimulating other adventurous souls to undertake similar voyages in sundry traditional craft.

    Heyerdahl’s fortitude didn’t make him right. It made people want to believe he was right, but he wasn’t.

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  194. @Thirdeye
    What seems most likely to me is admixture of the Andaman component with more northern Australoids prior to the latter's waterborne migration to North America that preceded the migration of northern Eurasians through Beringia (although not by much, and there was probably genetic and cultural mixture of the two groups after the melting of Alaska Coast Range glaciers opened contact between the interior and the coast). The Andaman group fostered the first known marine technology for fishing and crossing large bodies of water at least 40,000 years ago. As such, they were much more mobile than other humans. Marine technology spread up the eastern coast of Asia and through the Ryukyu chain (which was much less daunting to travel with lower sea levels) to Japan, and with it most likely some Andaman genes. With the approach of the Last Glacial Maximum there was a migration of Australoid populations via a northern land bridge to Japan, who engulfed the southern migrants and became familiar with their marine technology. The initial wave of migration out of northern Japan and the Amur coastal region was largely descended from the northern Australoids, with the incentive of rising sea levels and a moderating northern climate. Those who stayed home gave rise to the Jomon. Those who followed the archipelago food trail to North America became Amerindians.

    There is also evidence for a significant demographic displacement of the early Amerindians, associated with the second Eurasian wave around 7000 B. P. Distinct Amerindian populations retreated to refugia such as portions of the B. C. coast, the Santa Barbara Channel Islands, and areas south of the Sonoran Desert. That history provides a problem for modern tribes in North America who make claims of being the first inhabitants since time immemorial. Anthropologists do a lot of politically motivated tap-dancing over the evidence so as to minimize disturbance to that narrative.

    Here is an interesting, detailed paper about an excavation of a cave in the Ryukyus (between Southern Japan and Taiwan):

    Advanced maritime adaptation in the western Pacific coastal region extends back to 35,000–30,000 years before present”

    The paper suggests that:

    (1) Early humans were able to reach islands such as the Ryukyus as early as 35,000 BP. There may have been successive waves of waterborne settlers.

    (2) Early humans had adapted to a maritime lifestyle, e.g. crafting the world’s oldest fishhooks.

    (3) They learned to live largely without reliance of stone tools etc. using shells etc. instead.

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  195. @Weaver1
    Heyerdahl was writing in Kon-Tiki about South American "Long Ears" sailing to Easter Island before the Polynesians arrived. He took a picture of one group showing they had some reddish in their hair, and they were familiar with reeds.

    In the Ra Expeditions, Heyerdahl sailed from Egypt (I think) to the Americas, to demonstrate how easily bearded white men could have sailed to the Americas.

    Heyerdahl also tells of pictures of whites in Amerindian art. A few of these pictures are widely known on the Internet, but he tells of others. He also presents additional evidence.

    Heyerdahl explains how the oceans were not entirely barriers as we think of them. The Ra Expeditions using reed ships built by present-day Amerindians, similar to lesser reed ships built in Lake Chad, was far more interesting than the Kon-Tiki voyage on a Balsa raft.

    The reason we never hear the details today is no one wants it thought that whites could have arrived in the Americas well before the Vikings.

    -

    Similarly, in the Canary Islands (Africa), the native Guanches had built small pyramids and were fairly white. Present day residents of the islands are said to still be significantly descended from these natives. Heyerdahl should be of interest to many Unz readers.

    The Ra voyage was on an Egyptian-type papyrus boat and it reached a soggy demise in the middle of the Atlantic, suggesting the opposite of what Heyerdahl wanted to prove. There’s a lot of pish-posh about early transatlantic contact with North America. Europeans were moving about in glorified rowboats until Arabs introduced them to the technology originated by Pacific Islanders that enabled crossing oceans.

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  196. @Steve Sailer
    Polynesian yams apparently came from South American over the last few thousand years. Did they get to Polynesia via Thor Heyerdahl-like South Americans voyaging to Polynesia or did Polynesians get to South America, turn around and go back?

    Some claim that chickens were in south America when the Spanish got here.

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    • Replies: @Thirdeye
    There were. And genetic evidence from bones in middens shows that they were descendants of Polynesian chickens.
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  197. @Hell_Is_Like_Newark
    Sea levels were as much a 600 feet lower during the heights of previous glacial periods. A lot of the islands of Southeast Asia were not islands back then, but continuous land. During the last glacial maximum, there was a land bridge to Asia and ice free corridors that would have allowed travel to the lower 48 of North America and eventually, to South America.

    The ice-free corridors came later.

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  198. @dearieme
    " hunting mammoth in the south of South America way back into the ice age": goodness me, how did the mammoths get there?

    Gomphotheres. Presumably they walked.

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    • Replies: @Lars Porsena
    Yes, but the fossil record shows them in the Americas not 10,000 years ago, or 100,000 years ago, but probably more like 5 million. If mammoth hunting human ancestors followed them to the Americas, modern homo sapien would have originated in Brazil, and had to cross the Bering sea to get into Asia.
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  199. @gcochran
    Gomphotheres. Presumably they walked.

    Yes, but the fossil record shows them in the Americas not 10,000 years ago, or 100,000 years ago, but probably more like 5 million. If mammoth hunting human ancestors followed them to the Americas, modern homo sapien would have originated in Brazil, and had to cross the Bering sea to get into Asia.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    North America at least had native mammoths and mastodons.

    Also, horses appear to have developed in North America and later crossed into Eurasia.

    All large mammals were, of course, quickly eaten by the hungry humans and quickly became extinct. Since about 2000, it has become de rigueur for "scientists" to claim at every opportunity that the extinctions were caused by "climate change." In fact, of course, prior to the arrival of hungry humans, these species had survived numerous climate change events over millions of years. They had even managed to survive the introduction of new species during the "Great American Interchange Event" some 2 million years ago when North and South America collided. The new land bridge brought opossums and humming birds to North America.
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  200. @Thirdeye
    There's a pretty good record of when Polynesians developed the sail technology that enables transoceanic voyages. It is much more recent than the settlement of the Americas and what evidence there is of Polynesian contact with South America suggests that it occurred close to the Columbian era.

    You are probably right. As an Ecuadorian, I’ve often heard the Polynesian theory, and it rings at least partly true because there are some natives and even some of the browner mestizos that have certain South Asian phenotypical characteristics (brown with slanted eyes) that cannot be found in, say, descendants of more recent immigrants from China or Japan, who even keep their ancient last names. Even in my family I have relatives with slanted eyes who cannot recall any Asian ancestor, who also tend to be browner. That said, such mixing probably happened as you said, not for a long time and not widespread; from what I’ve seen in Ecuador, these characteristics are more prthe natives from the coast

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  201. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Lars Porsena
    Yes, but the fossil record shows them in the Americas not 10,000 years ago, or 100,000 years ago, but probably more like 5 million. If mammoth hunting human ancestors followed them to the Americas, modern homo sapien would have originated in Brazil, and had to cross the Bering sea to get into Asia.

    North America at least had native mammoths and mastodons.

    Also, horses appear to have developed in North America and later crossed into Eurasia.

    All large mammals were, of course, quickly eaten by the hungry humans and quickly became extinct. Since about 2000, it has become de rigueur for “scientists” to claim at every opportunity that the extinctions were caused by “climate change.” In fact, of course, prior to the arrival of hungry humans, these species had survived numerous climate change events over millions of years. They had even managed to survive the introduction of new species during the “Great American Interchange Event” some 2 million years ago when North and South America collided. The new land bridge brought opossums and humming birds to North America.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Lars Porsena
    I did not mean to imply the gompotheres had gone extinct before people got here. They were here 10,000 years ago too, I just meant that their migration into the Americas (occuring 5 million years ago) was not a path that humans followed, people arrived separately.

    And to your comment about the humans hunting all the megafauna, if so, it would have had to have been Clovis, since Clovis was crossing Beringia around the time the ice age ended and just before all the megafauna died. But again, the archaeology shows pre-clovis populations that were here for thousands of years hunting mammoth before Clovis. There was gompothere (mammoth) meat in the yurt at Monte Verde, the paleoindian populations would have been hunting them for thousands of years without any die-off or extinction occurring from it.
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  202. @TWS
    Some claim that chickens were in south America when the Spanish got here.

    There were. And genetic evidence from bones in middens shows that they were descendants of Polynesian chickens.

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  203. @Anonymous
    North America at least had native mammoths and mastodons.

    Also, horses appear to have developed in North America and later crossed into Eurasia.

    All large mammals were, of course, quickly eaten by the hungry humans and quickly became extinct. Since about 2000, it has become de rigueur for "scientists" to claim at every opportunity that the extinctions were caused by "climate change." In fact, of course, prior to the arrival of hungry humans, these species had survived numerous climate change events over millions of years. They had even managed to survive the introduction of new species during the "Great American Interchange Event" some 2 million years ago when North and South America collided. The new land bridge brought opossums and humming birds to North America.

    I did not mean to imply the gompotheres had gone extinct before people got here. They were here 10,000 years ago too, I just meant that their migration into the Americas (occuring 5 million years ago) was not a path that humans followed, people arrived separately.

    And to your comment about the humans hunting all the megafauna, if so, it would have had to have been Clovis, since Clovis was crossing Beringia around the time the ice age ended and just before all the megafauna died. But again, the archaeology shows pre-clovis populations that were here for thousands of years hunting mammoth before Clovis. There was gompothere (mammoth) meat in the yurt at Monte Verde, the paleoindian populations would have been hunting them for thousands of years without any die-off or extinction occurring from it.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Correct. Just wanted to clarify that mammoths and mastodons did live in North America as well as Eurasia, in addition to their cousins the gomphotheres.

    Early human populations may have been too sparse to extinguish the megafauna, but surely not for want of trying.
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  204. @Lars Porsena
    I did not mean to imply the gompotheres had gone extinct before people got here. They were here 10,000 years ago too, I just meant that their migration into the Americas (occuring 5 million years ago) was not a path that humans followed, people arrived separately.

    And to your comment about the humans hunting all the megafauna, if so, it would have had to have been Clovis, since Clovis was crossing Beringia around the time the ice age ended and just before all the megafauna died. But again, the archaeology shows pre-clovis populations that were here for thousands of years hunting mammoth before Clovis. There was gompothere (mammoth) meat in the yurt at Monte Verde, the paleoindian populations would have been hunting them for thousands of years without any die-off or extinction occurring from it.

    Correct. Just wanted to clarify that mammoths and mastodons did live in North America as well as Eurasia, in addition to their cousins the gomphotheres.

    Early human populations may have been too sparse to extinguish the megafauna, but surely not for want of trying.

    Read More
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  205. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Is there a connection between Andamanese-type heritage and an inability to count?

    But the Pirahãs proved to be completely different. Years ago, Everett attempted to teach them to learn to count. Over a period of eight months, he tried in vain to teach them the Portuguese numbers used by the Brazilians — um, dois, tres. “In the end, not a single person could count to ten,” the researcher says.

    http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/brazil-s-piraha-tribe-living-without-numbers-or-time-a-414291.html

    19th century reports from South West Africa also noted the inability of bushmen (Khoisan) to count to 10.

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