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From Aeon:

Black Achilles

The Greeks didn’t have modern ideas of race. Did they see themselves as white, black – or as something else altogether?

by Tim Whitmarsh
is the A G Leventis Professor of Greek culture at the University of Cambridge, and has held professorial posts at Oxford and Exeter. His latest book is Battling the Gods: Atheism in the Ancient World (2015).

Few issues provoke such controversy as the skin-colour of the ancient Greeks. Last year in an article published in Forbes, the Classics scholar Sarah Bond at the University of Iowa caused a storm by pointing out that many of the Greek statues that seem white to us now were in antiquity painted in colour. This is an uncontroversial position, and demonstrably correct, but Bond received a shower of online abuse for daring to suggest that the reason why some like to think of their Greek statues as marble-white might just have something to do with their politics. This year, it was the turn of BBC’s new television series Troy: Fall of a City (2018-) to attract ire, which cast black actors in the roles of Achilles, Patroclus, Zeus, Aeneas and others (as if using anglophone northern European actors were any less anachronistic).

The idea of the Greeks as paragons of whiteness is deeply rooted in Western society. As Donna Zuckerberg shows in her book Not All Dead White Men (2018),

It’s out?

Actually, La Zuckerberg’s book is scheduled for publication in January 2019.

this agenda has been promoted with gusto by sections of the alt-Right who see themselves as heirs to (a supposed) European warrior masculinity. Racism is emotional, not rational; I don’t want to dignify online armies of anonymous trolls by responding in detail to their assertions. My aim in this essay, rather, is to consider how the Greeks themselves viewed differences in skin colour. The differences are instructive – and, indeed, clearly point up the oddity of the modern, western obsession with classification by pigmentation. …

Okay, but there is more than one kind of pigmentation, which lots of people get confused over.

For example, Greek-American presidential nominee Michael Dukakis had dark hair, dark eyes, and huge dark Groucho Mark-like eyebrows, but nobody in modern America in 1988 called him the first black candidate.

On the other hand, an Englishman in 1900 might have called Dukakis black.

Back in the 1990s, when Afrocentrist theories about who built the pyramids were popular, African-American Afrocentrists on Usenet would often cite old books written by Oxford professors around 1890 that would refer in passing to ancient Egyptians as “black.” This was confusion — the word “black” meant something different to Englishmen in the 1890s than to Americans in the 1990s: practically everybody south of Dover was said to be more or less “black.” Just look at their hair color!

But the Afrocentrists didn’t know that. On the other hand, it seemed pretty enterprising of Afrocentrists to read old books, even if they were misinterpreting them.

Similarly, before American racial culture ideas took over the world, the English would even have talked of “black Irish.”

For example, Anglo-Irish scholar-explorer Sir Richard Burton was dark enough in coloration to pass as an Afghan when he surreptitiously made the hajj to Mecca in 1853.

It’s all relative.

Much of the confusion stems from the contemporary talking point that race is only skin deep, that black and white only refer to differences in skin pigmentation rather than to deep differences in ancestry and genetics. In fact, the big finding of genetics from the late 1980s Out of Africa theory onward is that the world’s prime racial difference is between sub-Saharan Africans and everybody else.

So the question is not ‘What did Achilles look like?’ but ‘How does Homer portray him?’ We have only one thing to go on here: Achilles is said in the Iliad to have xanthos hair. This word is often translated as ‘blond’, a translation that gives a powerful steer to the modern imagination. But translation can be deceptive. As Maria Michel Sassi’s essay for Aeon makes clear, the Greek colour vocabulary simply doesn’t map directly onto that of modern English. Xanthos could be used for things that we would call ‘brown’, ‘ruddy’, ‘yellow’ or ‘golden’.

Okay, but much the same — ‘brown’, ‘ruddy’, ‘yellow’ or ‘golden’ — could be said of Brad Pitt, who played Achilles in Troy. Pitt is usually summarized as “blond,” but if you Google “Brad Pitt natural hair color” you get a range of looks.

Pitt appears to have been a tow-headed child and a blond little boy, but his high school pictures vary in hair coloration from light brown to reddish brown to dark blond. Perhaps he was dyeing his hair already as a teen or perhaps his hair would go blond in the sun in the summer but would grow out darker in the winter in Missouri.

In 1970 it was the fashion among SoCal adolescents to leave school in June with skin fairer than your brown hair and come back to school in September with skin tanned darker than your now blond hair. (Dermatologists do well these days off people who were adolescents in 1970.)

And what of ‘black-skinned’? Was Odysseus in fact black? Or was he (as Emily Wilson’s acclaimed new translation renders it) ‘tanned’?

Well, he was outside fighting a war for ten years, then sailing around for ten years, so, yeah, I imagine Odysseus was pretty tanned.

Greeks simply didn’t think of the world as starkly divided along racial lines into black and white: that’s a strange aberration of the modern, Western world, a product of many different historical forces, but in particular the transatlantic slave trade and the cruder aspects of 19th-century racial theory. No one in Greece or Rome ever speaks of a white or a black genos (‘descent group’). Greeks certainly noticed different shades of pigmentation (of course), and they differentiated themselves from the darker peoples of Africa and India, sometimes in aggressively dismissive terms that we would now call racist; but they also differentiated themselves from the paler peoples of the North (see Hippocrates’ On Airs, Waters, and Places). Greeks did not, by and large, think of themselves as ‘white’.

That’s because they didn’t get out much from the Mediterranean and Black Sea, where everybody was fairly similar racially because of the ease of transport, except for a small number of blackish people in Egypt from far up the Nile and perhaps a rare visitor from India. The Greeks had no idea of the existence of Amerindians, Australians, or Polynesians, and not much awareness of East Asians. In contrast, after 1492, ocean-spanning European voyagers quickly found that there were major sharp divides among the world’s peoples, caused by oceans, deserts, and massive mountain ranges.

It’s less that ancient Greeks had advanced notions about the identicality of humans, more that they just assumed they were living in the center of the world and that if distant people diverged in looks, it was because of the weird places they lived.

We might add that modern geneticists too find classification by skin colour unhelpful, and indeed avoid the term ‘race’ (a meaningless category in biological terms). There is relatively little genetic difference between the human populations of different continents, and levels of skin pigmentation are a very poor proxy for general genetic relatedness. The distinction between ‘black’ African and ‘white’ European peoples, then, is not just unGreek: it’s also unbiological.

Sounds like somebody hasn’t been paying attention to DNA science since Bill Clinton’s 2000 Rose Garden speech on how cataloging one genome somehow proved that race didn’t exist.

 
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  1. Corn says:

    “The Greeks had no idea of the existence of Amerindians, Australians, or Polynesians, and very little awareness of East Asians.”

    Right. In those more primitive times the Greeks may habe known of blacks via Egypt maybe. Just maybe.

    Alexander hadn’t gone to India yet.

    Would the ancient Greeks have known of China? I seem to recall the Roman Empire traded with China through intermediaries central Asia, but I’m hazy on if any Roman went to China or vice versa.

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    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    There's also the question of what time period we mean. The current best guess for the Trojan War was right after 1200 BC during the Late Bronze Age Collapse. Presumably oral accounts of the war were repeated and refined over several hundreds years during the Greek dark age with what we know as the Iliad being written down in 800 or 700 BC, at least as close to the time of Socrates as that of Achilles.

    Presumably, Greeks were less aware of the bigger world at various points in this period than in, say, Aristotle's time.

    , @snorlax
    The Greek Seleucid kingdom in Persia (established after Alexander's conquests) certainly knew about China. Greeks in Greece, probably not.

    A few Romans went to China but not Chinese ever went to Europe that we know of. The Byzantine emperor Justinian (r. A.D. 527-525) famously arranged the smuggling of silk worms from China to Europe, breaking the Chinese monopoly. The Chinese on the other hand never bothered to figure out how the blown glass they imported from Rome was produced, even though the process was as simple as could be and required no such elaborate capers to replicate.
    , @syonredux

    Would the ancient Greeks have known of China? I seem to recall the Roman Empire traded with China through intermediaries central Asia, but I’m hazy on if any Roman went to China or vice versa.
     
    The Chinese on the Roman Empire:



    http://depts.washington.edu/silkroad/texts/weilue/weilue.html#section11




    http://depts.washington.edu/silkroad/texts/weilue/weilue.html
    , @ccanother
    The Taichi symbol appeared in China around ~900 AD I think. And there're western astrology symbols appearing in China around that time. I once saw a Taichi symbol in ancient Roman shields. I am not aware anybody mentioning this, but I think the Taichi symbol might have moved along the silk road from west to east and then got employed by the Song dynasty philosophers and became the Taichi symbol as known today.

    At the time of Alexander, the westmost reach of China was around the Gansu province of today that's some 1,500 kilometers east of Afghanistan.

    About 300 years later, the Han China reached the Afghan area and there Budhism got imported into China and later stired up further philosophical development in the Confucius school. One question I do not find the answers to is the westward spread of Budhism. Did any Budhist monks turn west from Afghan?

    I didn't know ancient Greeks were black & homo. They gave us democracy and mathematics and now black skin and homophiles. They're really the Peak Homo sapiens. One thing left: what about their bath rooms? The entire human history is not progress, it's a giant regress since that golden age.
    , @Daniel Chieh
    IIRC Romans had a vague awareness of China(they called them Seres) and imported significant quantities of silk from them. Pliny complains about the trade deficit and that the Seres, known as "masters of absentee trader"(for selling goods without showing up and for being "fond of selling but not of buying"), sold them luxuries such as silk that promoted the licentiousness of women. There was some wild theories that the Seres were the descendants of Sassanids, that the Seres each lived 300 years old, and so on. On the positive side, they wrote of the Seres as being civilized and nonviolent("immune to the provocations of Mars.")

    Pretty much everything the Romans wrote about the Seres included speculation on silk.

    , @foolisholdman
    Hadrian (of the Wall) before he became Emperor, was the commander of the Romans stationed on the western side of the Great Wall of China. As far as I am aware, he never went through it, but it is thought that it was the inspiration for his wall across Britain to keep the Scotts and Picts out.

    Needham, in his book on Science & Civilization in China mentions a valley in western China that is inhabited by the descendants of a captured Roman legion and the Chinese women that they had widowed before they were captured.
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  2. psmith says:

    WE

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    • Replies: @gruff
    WUZ
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  3. Al Sharpton knows the Score.

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    • Replies: @Detective Club
    RIGHT ON, REV. AL! Trump doesn't know shit about architexture!
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  4. songbird says:

    One of the odder behaviors of the Left more recently, IMO, is the naked attempt by some to split Greeks off from other Europeans. To pretend that it was Northern Euros who had their boot on Greek necks and not the Turks.

    Somehow, I don’t think making Achilles black will convince Greeks to join the coalition.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Turks from Turkey are basically Turkish speaking Greeks, Armenians, Georgians, Kurds, etc.
    , @Peter Akuleyev
    One of the odder behaviors of the Left more recently, IMO, is the naked attempt by some to split Greeks off from other Europeans. To pretend that it was Northern Euros who had their boot on Greek necks and not the Turks.

    Is Nicholas Taleb on the "Left"?
    , @Unzerker
    I'm Dutch and I've learned ancient Greek in school and went there a couple of times. Compared to the Western European countries I had been to it was very very different. I never felt that we NW Europeans and the Greeks had a lot in common. We don't share a history, religion, culture, language or even a writing system.

    It's an Eastern Mediterranean people with an Eastern Mediterranean culture.
    , @RadicalCenter
    Neither Greeks nor Armenians seem to have much illusion about the nature and intentions of the Turks, or Muslims more generally. Nor should we.

    Turkey would love to "finish the job" against the Armenians and against the Greeks in Cyprus and what is left of Greece -- and they would have done so already if not for the protective presence of nominally Christian Russia nearby. Turkey's little brother Azerbaijan would be glad to help.
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  5. Regarding “black-skinned Odysseus”, Peter Frost’s recent post on conceptions of skin pigmentation in pre-modern times is interesting…

    http://evoandproud.blogspot.jp/2018/04/the-original-meaning-of-skin-color.html

    If Frost’s telling is correct, “black-skinned” could be interpreted as suggesting a threatening nature. Clever=devious=threatening?

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    • Replies: @Chrisnonymous
    I've just gotten around to reading the Aeon article through. I re-recommend Peter Frost's article (linked above), which dovetails nicely with the Aeon author's discussion of the meaning of color in ancient Greek.

    The Aeon article is not so awful. Contra Taleb (who probably didn't read the article), the article gives DNA its due place in the discussion. And contra Steve, the article is almost certainly correct that "black-skinned" Odysseus doesn't mean "tanned". The main objection to be made is the article's anti-white politics. The article's discussion of the previous Forbes controversy says essentially, "anyone who objected to be defamed by the Forbes articles should have just rolled over and taken it." The article then goes on to insist that color descriptions in Greek don't map onto our concepts of color vocabulary while suggesting at the same time that the Greeks didn't think of themselves as "white". This is at the same time a meaningless tautology and dissembling.

    One interesting he points to is the possibility that Odysseus is described as having blue hair:

    In the Odyssey, Athena is said to enhance Odysseus’ appearance magically: ‘He became black-skinned (melagkhroiēs) again, and the hairs became blue (kuaneai) around his chin.’ On two other occasions when she beautifies him, she is said to make his hair ‘woolly, similar in colour to the hyacinth flower’. Now, translating kuaneos (the root of the English ‘cyan’) as ‘blue’, as I have done here, is at first sight a bit silly: most translators take the word to mean ‘dark’. But given the usual colour of hyacinths, maybe – just maybe – he did have blue hair after all?
     
    Although this seems very strange to us, there is the phenomenon of Japanese animation characters having completely unnatural and not-true-to-life color schemes. I myself am not interested in this subculture and have never understood the motivation behind the color schemes, but there it is. Maybe Greek literature inhabited something of the same place in the Greek mind as Japanese animation inhabits in the minds of those who like it.

    On the hand, when we see re-constructions of colorized Greek art based on the remains of paint found on the originals, we don't see characters with wildly untrue-to-life color schemes.

    And these artistic reconstructions reflect on one other point in the article as well:

    The upshot is that we can be pretty confident that ancient Greeks were similar in genotype and phenotype to modern Greeks. There are, however, some qualifications: Greeks of the Bronze Age are likely to have had darker skin, eyes and hair.

    By and large, then, ancient Greeks probably looked generally like darker versions of modern Greeks
     
    As Razib has noted in commenting on the "black-skinned-blue-eyed Brit", we need to take extrapolations of skin color from DNA analysis with a grain of salt because we aren't sure about the totality of genetic contribution to skin tone.

    When I looked at Greek art, I see 2 patterns. One is portraying men as "black", which fits into the black-male/white-female dichotomy described by Peter Frost as having roots in evolution. The other is portraying people with rather peachy hues like we would expect to see in the portrayal of generic "white people"--what we are apt to call, quite naturally, flesh tones.
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  6. Anon[972] • Disclaimer says:

    AmRen of course has an opinion on this.

    https://www.amren.com/news/2016/10/what-race-were-the-ancient-greeks-and-romans/

    R. Peterson’s fine study, The Classical World (1985), which includes an analysis of 43 Greek, and 32 Roman figures, is persuasive. Dr. Peterson explains that the Romans painted their death masks to preserve the color, as well as the shape, of their ancestors’ faces. Blue eyes, fair hair, and light complexions are common.

    There is good reason to think that Homer was recording stories handed down during the Dark Age. Homer (and Pindar) describe most of the Olympian gods and goddesses as fair haired and “bright eyed,” meaning blue, grey or green. The goddess Demeter has “blond” or “yellow hair,” as does Leto, mother of Apollo, who is also described as “golden haired.” Aphrodite has “pale-gold” hair, and Athena is known as “the fair, bright-eyed one” and the “grey-eyed goddess.” Two of the gods, Poseidon and Hephaestus, are described as having black hair. As noted above, Xenophanes complained that all peoples imagine the gods to look like themselves.

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    • Replies: @The Scarlet Pimpernel
    Contemporary accounts often marvel at the ancient Greeks' golden hair and fair skin, some going so far as to say they all look that way. And from the DNA evidence it's starting to look like they were in fact Celts.

    Today's darker Greeks are an artifact of the Ottoman occupation.
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  7. ‘Course they were black, they all came from Wakanda, where do you think this philosophy s**** came from?

    Anyone disagreeing is wayciss.

    (Seriously, how many times have these edgy Oxbridge hacks pulled this Greeks/Romans/Egyptians/Jesus/Jews were black schtick? It’s getting boring already)

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  8. ‘course they were black, they all came from Wakanda, where do you think this philosophy s**** came from?

    Anyone disagreeing is wayciss.

    (Seriously, how many times have these edgy Oxbridge hacks pulled this Greeks/Romans/Egyptians/Jesus were black schtick? It’s getting boring already)

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    • Replies: @SMK
    What matters with "blacks" is not the "color of their skin" but their low average intelligence, higher levels of testosterone, greater impulsiveness and lack of self-control and discipline as compared to Europeans and "Asians." If sub-Saharan Africans were white, literally white in skin color rather than dark brown, as compared to Europeans, so-called "whites" who are beige in skin color with pink, yellow, olive, and brown undertones, or light brown if tanned, their behavior and societies and cultures would be the same, essentially, whether In Africa or the U.S. or UK or wherever. They would still be on average far less intelligent than "whites" and "Asians" and far more violent, criminal, impoverished, salacious, etc.
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  9. Lot says:

    BBC’s Troy is pretty bad judging from the first 2 episodes. The main characters that get the screen time, at least in those episodes, were white. But you see some hints that Achilles is going to be a wise, brave, perfect, awesome character like all black characters in historical dramas.

    Beyond the PC issues, the acting is stilted, the sets low rent, and dialog borders on campy, sort of a not-funny SJW version of Conan or Xena, Warrior Princess.

    The best Brit drama since Downton Abbey is Peaky Blinders.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peaky_Blinders_(TV_series)

    They have an ahistorical token black (in 1920 Birmingham, yeah right), and if course he’s smart and brave and stands up to racism, but he’s a minor character with maybe 6 minutes of screen time centered on him in the series. And they kind of make up for it with a delightful non-PC Italian and Jewish mobsters and Irish Republican thugs. And the Winston Churchill scenes are a lot better than the recent Churchill movie, and made me crave an early Churchill spin-off woth the same actors and writers.

    The show wasn’t quite as good as the Sopranos or Sons of Anarchy, but it was close enough for me. The largest defect was primarily that the anti-hero was just too canny and clever and lucky to feel believable.

    This 7-episode Australian series from 2015 was also very good:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallipoli_(miniseries)

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    • Replies: @AndrewR
    I stopped watching Peaky Blinders immediately after an angry character said "get your fucking hands off me!" I'm 99.9999% sure that an enraged Englishman in that era would have said "bloody," which, back then, was arguably more taboo than "fucking" is now, in our degenerate era. Wiktionary doesn't have much on "fucking" as an intensifier, but I imagine it is an Americanism only quite recently adopted into the British vocabulary. In any event, "bloody" really was a taboo word then.

    Presumably the writers/producers/director all thought that saying "bloody" would sound too tame to their linguistically/historically ignorant audience to whom "bloody" sounds quaint and utterly unoffensive. Or even worse, perhaps the people involved in the show are that ignorant themselves. But "fucking" certainly struck me as a bizarre anachronism. That sort of terrible anachronistic writing invariably ruins productions for me.

    From the wikipedia article on "bloody":

    After about 1750 the word assumed more profane connotations. Johnson (1755) already calls it "very vulgar", and the original Oxford English Dictionary article of 1888 comments the word is "now constantly in the mouths of the lowest classes, but by respectable people considered 'a horrid word', on par with obscene or profane language."

    On the opening night of George Bernard Shaw's comedy Pygmalion in 1914, Mrs Patrick Campbell, in the role of Eliza Doolittle, created a sensation with the line "Walk! Not bloody likely!" and this led to a fad for using "Pygmalion" itself as a pseudo-oath, as in "Not Pygmalion likely",[5][6] and bloody was referred to as "the Shavian adjective" in polite society.

    The character Geoffrey Fisher in Keith Waterhouse's play Billy Liar (1959) is notable for his continual use of the word 'bloody'. Waterhouse's stage directions make it clear that if this is considered offensive the word should be omitted entirely and not bowdlerised to ruddy or some other word.

    The use of 'bloody' in adult UK broadcasting aroused controversy in the 1960s and 1970s, but it has since become mild expletive and is used more freely
     

    .
    , @Melendwyr
    Rather ironic of them, given how messed-up Achilles was in the original legends. Greek heroes often weren't 'heroic' in a modern sense. If memory serves, Achilles spent a lot of time sulking in his tent rather than trying to win the war. He wasn't 'good' by any means.
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  10. What is Donna Zuckerberg’s position on the Black Hebrew Israelites? Did the Black population skip Israel in their conquest of Ancient Greece, Rome and Albion?

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    • Replies: @J. Dart
    Somewhat on topic: very strange anecdote from the State Department guy who handled all the problems related to the Black Hebrew Israelites and the Israeli attempts to deport them and stop more of them from coming

    https://adst.org/2017/02/american-israeli-tensions-black-hebrew-community/
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  11. syonredux says:

    Last year in an article published in Forbes, the Classics scholar Sarah Bond at the University of Iowa caused a storm by pointing out that many of the Greek statues that seem white to us now were in antiquity painted in colour.

    Dunno. Even with the color restored, they still look pretty White…..

    This year, it was the turn of BBC’s new television series Troy: Fall of a City (2018-) to attract ire, which cast black actors in the roles of Achilles, Patroclus, Zeus, Aeneas and others (as if using anglophone northern European actors were any less anachronistic).

    Might want to read Reich’s new book. Northern Europeans and Southern Europeans are more closely related to each other than they the are to Sub-Saharan Africans……

    My aim in this essay, rather, is to consider how the Greeks themselves viewed differences in skin colour. The differences are instructive – and, indeed, clearly point up the oddity of the modern, western obsession with classification by pigmentation.

    Give a Sub-Saharan African a Baltic complexion, he’s still not gonna look like a White guy. Color terms are just shorthand for a host of racial signifiers.

    This word is often translated as ‘blond’, a translation that gives a powerful steer to the modern imagination. But translation can be deceptive. As Maria Michel Sassi’s essay for Aeon makes clear, the Greek colour vocabulary simply doesn’t map directly onto that of modern English. Xanthos could be used for things that we would call ‘brown’, ‘ruddy’, ‘yellow’ or ‘golden’.

    On the other hand, we’re pretty safe in assuming that his hair was non-Black/dark brown.

    Now, translating kuaneos (the root of the English ‘cyan’) as ‘blue’, as I have done here, is at first sight a bit silly: most translators take the word to mean ‘dark’. But given the usual colour of hyacinths, maybe – just maybe – he did have blue hair after all? Who knows; but here, certainly, is another example of just how alien the Homeric colour scheme is.

    Not that alien. After all, we have the term “blue-black” for especially dark hair, which evinces no lighter shades, not even the brightest sunlight…..

    And what of ‘black-skinned’? Was Odysseus in fact black? Or was he (as Emily Wilson’s acclaimed new translation renders it) ‘tanned’? Once again, we can see how different translations prompt modern readers to envisage these characters in completely different ways. But to understand the Homeric text, we need to shed these modern associations. Odysseus’ blackness, like Achilles’ xanthos hair, isn’t intended to play to modern racial categories;

    Just like pre-20th century Anglo writers:

    Jonathan Swift on the Duke of Somerset:

    Duke of Somerset:

    Is of a middle stature, well shaped, a very black complexion, a lover of music and poetry; of good judgment [not a grain;hardly common sense];but by reason of a great hesitation in his speech wants expression. He is about forty-two years old.

    In the fourteenth year of my age, by a fellow scholar of swarth, black complexion, I had like to have my right eye beaten out as we were at play

    William Lilly’s history of his life and times from the year 1602 to 1681, page 20

    A description of the inhabitants of the Western Isles of Scotland:

    The Inhabitants are generally well proportioned, and of a black Complexion; they speak only the Irish Tongue and use the Habit, Diet, and etc that is used in the Western Isles

    A description of Thomas, Earl of Ormonde:

    He was a very comely and graceful man, and of a black complexion, which gained him among the Irish the surname of Duffe

    A History of the Life of James Duke of Ormonde, Volume 1, page Lxiv

    Greeks certainly noticed different shades of pigmentation (of course), and they differentiated themselves from the darker peoples of Africa and India, sometimes in aggressively dismissive terms that we would now call racist;

    Indeed:

    Greeks and Romans, well acquainted with their contemporaries, differentiated between the various gradations of color in Mediterranean populations and made it clear that only some of the black- or dark-skinned peoples, those coming from the south of Egypt and the southern fringes of northwest Africa, were Ethiopians, i.e. Negroes. Ethiopians, known as the blackest peoples on earth, became the yardstick by which classical authors measured the color of others. In first century AD, Manilius described Ethiopians as the blackest; Indians, less sunburnt; Egyptians, mildly dark; with Moors the lightest in this color scheme. In other words, to all these peoples–Ethiopians, Indians, Egyptians, and Moors–who were darker than the Greeks and Romans, classical authors applied color-words but it should be emphasized that in general the ancients described only one of these–Ethiopians–as unmistakably Negroid.

    http://library.howard.edu/content.php?pid=554250

    In the upper (ie, southern) part of the Nile valley, in modern Sudan, lay another magnificent civilisation known variously as Kush, the Meroitic kingdom and Nubia.

    Magnificent compared to what? Its culture was a mere echo of Egypt’s….

    The Greeks came to call this place ‘Ethiopia’, which can mean ‘land of the burnt-faced people’.

    Sounds like a decent descriptive for Sub-Saharan Africans….

    But there are also vases that show mythical combatants with (exaggerated) African features, who might or might not be Memnon and his warriors.

    Wait, so racial differences are not limited to skin color?Who knew?

    The big question, of course, is whether we can say anything about what Greeks themselves looked like. Here we have to tread especially carefully, because there are a lot of traps. People often and very easily refer to ancient Greeks as ‘European’, as if the meaning of that term were self-evident. But ‘Europe’ is a historical construct, not a fact of nature.

    Again, read Reich’s book. Europeans are pretty closely related to each other….

    To quote the paper, Minoan Greeks took ‘at least three-quarters of their ancestry from the first Neolithic farmers of western Anatolia and the Aegean, and most of the remainder from ancient populations related to those of the Caucasus and Iran’. DNA from the Mycenaean period (taken as 1700-1200 BCE) saw new genetic input from the Eurasian Steppe or Armenia.

    Well, with that mix, I would say that it’s a safe bet that they didn’t look like Sub-Saharan Africans….

    The upshot is that we can be pretty confident that ancient Greeks were similar in genotype and phenotype to modern Greeks.

    https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-

    FGGgpaXOTtI/WLaNSxuqvAI/AAAAAAACD4E/U0ZW_0uzt98PWpypZkcQKayUKLQ0Eff8gCLcB/s1600/nellys-greek.JPG

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    https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-FGGgpaXOTtI/WLaNSxuqvAI/AAAAAAACD4E/U0ZW_0uzt98PWpypZkcQKayUKLQ0Eff8gCLcB/s1600/nellys-greek.JPG
    , @Seamus Padraig
    You know, your picture of the painted statue got to me thinking: maybe Trump is black? ;-)

    http://www.everseradio.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/trump-orange-hair.jpg
    , @Anonymous
    My first reaction to the bottom picture was that it was Arlene Martel in makeup as Spock's Vulcan wife :

    http://www.arlenemartel.com/auto/pics/martel41.jpg
    , @james wilson
    One thing. Ethiopians are indeed as dark as Bantus but are Caucasians. The Bantu minority that inhabit parts of Northeast Africa were imported as slaves 1700 ish.
    , @Truth
    The last picture's a dude, so I guess the Greeks didn't know color or gender.
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  12. newrouter says:

    “The distinction between ‘black’ African and ‘white’ European peoples, then, is not just unGreek: it’s also unbiological. ”

    These guys effin luv SCIENCE!!11!!

    ” Tim Whitmarsh

    is the A G Leventis Professor of Greek culture at the University of Cambridge, and has held professorial posts at Oxford and Exeter. His latest book is Battling the Gods: Atheism in the Ancient World (2015).”

    Attacking their rice bowls is a revolutionary act.

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  13. Two cheers for Usenet. I was quite active on Usenet groups in the mid-’90s. For a while there were very good and accessible archives, then Google bought it and I thought we were assured of continued access to all those dialogues from back in the day. But now it seems increasingly difficult to find old Usenet posts. Anyone know the current status?

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    • Replies: @Lot
    groups.google.com

    https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/alt.fan.karl-malden.nose
    , @Anonymous
    Usenet is in massive decline but still exists. Several commercial and a few free newsservers are operational, some ISPs still provide free access to a newsserver. But there are basically no new users. A pity because newsreaders provided a richer, more usable UI than today's "forums" and blogs (unz.com is a clear standout in that respect).

    Dejanews archive was infested and corrupted by Googlegroups to the extent that any reasonable searches are no longer possible.
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  14. Anonymous[400] • Disclaimer says:

    Dukakis was a manlet.

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  15. syonredux says:
    @syonredux

    Last year in an article published in Forbes, the Classics scholar Sarah Bond at the University of Iowa caused a storm by pointing out that many of the Greek statues that seem white to us now were in antiquity painted in colour.
     
    Dunno. Even with the color restored, they still look pretty White.....

    http://eu.greekreporter.com/files/statues-apollo.jpg

    This year, it was the turn of BBC’s new television series Troy: Fall of a City (2018-) to attract ire, which cast black actors in the roles of Achilles, Patroclus, Zeus, Aeneas and others (as if using anglophone northern European actors were any less anachronistic).
     
    Might want to read Reich's new book. Northern Europeans and Southern Europeans are more closely related to each other than they the are to Sub-Saharan Africans......

    My aim in this essay, rather, is to consider how the Greeks themselves viewed differences in skin colour. The differences are instructive – and, indeed, clearly point up the oddity of the modern, western obsession with classification by pigmentation.

     

    Give a Sub-Saharan African a Baltic complexion, he's still not gonna look like a White guy. Color terms are just shorthand for a host of racial signifiers.

    This word is often translated as ‘blond’, a translation that gives a powerful steer to the modern imagination. But translation can be deceptive. As Maria Michel Sassi’s essay for Aeon makes clear, the Greek colour vocabulary simply doesn’t map directly onto that of modern English. Xanthos could be used for things that we would call ‘brown’, ‘ruddy’, ‘yellow’ or ‘golden’.
     
    On the other hand, we're pretty safe in assuming that his hair was non-Black/dark brown.


    Now, translating kuaneos (the root of the English ‘cyan’) as ‘blue’, as I have done here, is at first sight a bit silly: most translators take the word to mean ‘dark’. But given the usual colour of hyacinths, maybe – just maybe – he did have blue hair after all? Who knows; but here, certainly, is another example of just how alien the Homeric colour scheme is.

     

    Not that alien. After all, we have the term "blue-black" for especially dark hair, which evinces no lighter shades, not even the brightest sunlight.....

    And what of ‘black-skinned’? Was Odysseus in fact black? Or was he (as Emily Wilson’s acclaimed new translation renders it) ‘tanned’? Once again, we can see how different translations prompt modern readers to envisage these characters in completely different ways. But to understand the Homeric text, we need to shed these modern associations. Odysseus’ blackness, like Achilles’ xanthos hair, isn’t intended to play to modern racial categories;

     

    Just like pre-20th century Anglo writers:


    Jonathan Swift on the Duke of Somerset:

    Duke of Somerset:

    Is of a middle stature, well shaped, a very black complexion, a lover of music and poetry; of good judgment [not a grain;hardly common sense];but by reason of a great hesitation in his speech wants expression. He is about forty-two years old.
     

    In the fourteenth year of my age, by a fellow scholar of swarth, black complexion, I had like to have my right eye beaten out as we were at play

    William Lilly’s history of his life and times from the year 1602 to 1681, page 20
     
    A description of the inhabitants of the Western Isles of Scotland:

    The Inhabitants are generally well proportioned, and of a black Complexion; they speak only the Irish Tongue and use the Habit, Diet, and etc that is used in the Western Isles
     
    A description of Thomas, Earl of Ormonde:

    He was a very comely and graceful man, and of a black complexion, which gained him among the Irish the surname of Duffe

    A History of the Life of James Duke of Ormonde, Volume 1, page Lxiv
     

    Greeks certainly noticed different shades of pigmentation (of course), and they differentiated themselves from the darker peoples of Africa and India, sometimes in aggressively dismissive terms that we would now call racist;
     
    Indeed:

    http://img.4plebs.org/boards/pol/image/1474/85/1474858042845.jpg

    Greeks and Romans, well acquainted with their contemporaries, differentiated between the various gradations of color in Mediterranean populations and made it clear that only some of the black- or dark-skinned peoples, those coming from the south of Egypt and the southern fringes of northwest Africa, were Ethiopians, i.e. Negroes. Ethiopians, known as the blackest peoples on earth, became the yardstick by which classical authors measured the color of others. In first century AD, Manilius described Ethiopians as the blackest; Indians, less sunburnt; Egyptians, mildly dark; with Moors the lightest in this color scheme. In other words, to all these peoples–Ethiopians, Indians, Egyptians, and Moors–who were darker than the Greeks and Romans, classical authors applied color-words but it should be emphasized that in general the ancients described only one of these–Ethiopians–as unmistakably Negroid.
     
    http://library.howard.edu/content.php?pid=554250

    In the upper (ie, southern) part of the Nile valley, in modern Sudan, lay another magnificent civilisation known variously as Kush, the Meroitic kingdom and Nubia.
     
    Magnificent compared to what? Its culture was a mere echo of Egypt's....

    The Greeks came to call this place ‘Ethiopia’, which can mean ‘land of the burnt-faced people’.
     
    Sounds like a decent descriptive for Sub-Saharan Africans....

    But there are also vases that show mythical combatants with (exaggerated) African features, who might or might not be Memnon and his warriors.

     

    Wait, so racial differences are not limited to skin color?Who knew?

    The big question, of course, is whether we can say anything about what Greeks themselves looked like. Here we have to tread especially carefully, because there are a lot of traps. People often and very easily refer to ancient Greeks as ‘European’, as if the meaning of that term were self-evident. But ‘Europe’ is a historical construct, not a fact of nature.

     

    Again, read Reich's book. Europeans are pretty closely related to each other....

    To quote the paper, Minoan Greeks took ‘at least three-quarters of their ancestry from the first Neolithic farmers of western Anatolia and the Aegean, and most of the remainder from ancient populations related to those of the Caucasus and Iran’. DNA from the Mycenaean period (taken as 1700-1200 BCE) saw new genetic input from the Eurasian Steppe or Armenia.
     
    Well, with that mix, I would say that it's a safe bet that they didn't look like Sub-Saharan Africans....

    The upshot is that we can be pretty confident that ancient Greeks were similar in genotype and phenotype to modern Greeks.
     
    http://metaxas-project.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/nelly-nellys-greek-photographer-metaxas-fascism-01.png

    https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-
    FGGgpaXOTtI/WLaNSxuqvAI/AAAAAAACD4E/U0ZW_0uzt98PWpypZkcQKayUKLQ0Eff8gCLcB/s1600/nellys-greek.JPG





    https://classicgrandtour.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/cf86cf89cf84cebfceb3cf81ceaccf86cebfcf82-nelly-cf80ceb1cf81ceb1cebbcebbceb7cebbceb9cf83cebccebfceaf.jpg


    https://78.media.tumblr.com/a6e63490e7e820afb50f424c50a0a79f/tumblr_ovr6yukWkB1sjmae6o1_500.jpg

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    • Replies: @syonredux
    https://i.pinimg.com/736x/b1/35/ab/b135ab97b4108f006b0e71ad2526444c.jpg
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  16. As for Richard Burton “passing”, when my very, very, very Swamp Yankee White cousin was doing research in Uttar Pradesh all the Indians assumed he was Afghan. Burton took the greater risk since Indians weren’t about to get choppy choppy about it.

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    • Replies: @syonredux

    As for Richard Burton “passing”, when my very, very, very Swamp Yankee White cousin was doing research in Uttar Pradesh all the Indians assumed he was Afghan.
     
    Robert E Howard wrote a series of stories about an early 20th century American adventurer named Kirby O'Donnell who operated in the Middle East. He usually posed as a Kurd, noting that his blue eyes posed no risk, as light eyes were not uncommon in the highlands.


    http://contest.afghanistanmatters.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/AFGHAN-PEOPLE-3355S-002.JPG
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  17. But the Afrocentrists didn’t know that. On the other hand, it seemed pretty enterprising of Afrocentrists to read old books, even if they were misinterpreting them.

    Hey Steve? You do know that a HUGE amount of that stuff originates from Nation of Islam and offshoots? And that they tend to have quite a bit of time on their hands in the Michigan Department of Corrections system which has been their effective headquarters almost from inception?

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  18. Anonymous[400] • Disclaimer says:

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  19. Dutch Boy says:

    Color aside, the features on the ancient statues are Caucasian.

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  20. syonredux says:
    @syonredux
    https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-FGGgpaXOTtI/WLaNSxuqvAI/AAAAAAACD4E/U0ZW_0uzt98PWpypZkcQKayUKLQ0Eff8gCLcB/s1600/nellys-greek.JPG

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    • Replies: @syonredux
    http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/05/10/article-0-13051C99000005DC-957_964x652.jpg
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  21. What does Homer say?

    Achilles was blonde. “ … Minerva came down from heaven … and seized the son of Peleus by his yellow hair …”

    Menelaus had legs as white as ivory. “As when some woman of Meonia or Caria strains purple dye on to a piece of ivory … even so, O Menelaus, were your shapely thighs and your legs down to your fair ankles stained with blood.”

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    • Replies: @S. Anonyia
    I think blonde back then probably meant a lighter brown shade- something that would look golden in the sunlight but not the modern more yellow conception of blonde. Frescoes of Alexander the Great, who was famously described as blond, show a guy with bronze/light brown hair. It’s pretty clear true blondes are the anomaly among ALL Europeans outside of the Baltic region. In fact since it’s a relatively recent mutation that likely spread due to it being attractive in women, there were probably even fewer blondes in antiquity than today. Blue eyes are likely older though.

    Truth is there isn’t a huge difference between middle Easterners (save Gulf Arabs and Egyptians because they have some recent SSA blood) and Europeans in terms of complexion- only something like 15-20 percent of Europeans are of the pasty can never tan variety. Guys with a look like Michael Huisman or Colin Farrel is more common across just about every part of Europe than guys with looks like Paul Bettany’s. And all three of those dudes are Northern Euros. Most whites would look tan and weathered and barely distinguisable from natives if dropped in say Afghanistan or Kurdistan for a few years and forced to do hard labor.

    We don’t have to prove Greeks were yellow-blonde just to prove they weren’t blacks. Why are people so obsessed with extremes of appearance?
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  22. This stuff will never end. These are the same dickheads who think that Cleopatra the 7th was black. Of course any reading of history would show she was part of a Macedonian Dynasty. And the blacks built the pyramids…not. It appears genetic evidence shows the people who live in Egypt now are the nearest genetically to the pyramid builders.

    The Black Athena Ruse (as one anthropologist I knew labeled it) is all part of reconditioning of the White Race to believe they are all wrong about all of history. I grew up in a community that had many Greeks. There varied in skin shade from extremely white to light tan. The Lebanese who lived there were always a darker shade than any of the Greeks. Some Greeks were very fair with blondish hair (women). Many of these I think were part Italian…Northern Italian. I don’t ever remember seeing any Greeks in my area who were super dark. In fact, Dukakis was a lot darker than any Greek in my town.

    What’s really amazing about the people in academia who write this nonsense is that they don’t realize how racists blacks are against other blacks of darker skin tone. Ali versus Frazier was all about the pretty light skinned Ali versus the dark street black of Frazier and of course properly promoted and framed by Howard Cosell and other Jews.

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    • Replies: @Stan d Mute

    The Black Athena Ruse (as one anthropologist I knew labeled it) is all part of reconditioning of the White Race to believe they are all wrong about all of history.
     
    No, it’s more about memory holing the fact that until startlingly recently essentially all of Sub-Saharan Africa looked exactly like Sentinel Island or one of the “uncontacted” Amazonian tribes. Full on commonplace cannibalism, unspeakable savage butchery of women and children, etc - these were described in detail by European explorers and “discoverers” into the 20th Century. This isn’t the remarkable Chinese rise from poverty in a century, this is an attempted forklift upgrade of an entire Continent from the Stone Age to the Space Age in a century.

    100% of our academic effort it seems is dedicated to obfuscation of this central fact and it’s ramifications in both successes and failures. Considering that pure barbarism of the sort seen in Liberia’s warlord era is today less common is a major win, but looking too carefully at Haiti, Detroit, St Louis, Baltimore, etc, far too glaringly shows failure under even optimized conditions.
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  23. syonredux says:
    @syonredux
    https://i.pinimg.com/736x/b1/35/ab/b135ab97b4108f006b0e71ad2526444c.jpg

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    https://i.pinimg.com/736x/10/46/86/104686f283c52ebba2c6da83628b93df.jpg
    , @Truth
    Two more long-armed, broad-shouldered, masculine-profiled, dudes.
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  24. syonredux says:
    @syonredux
    http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/05/10/article-0-13051C99000005DC-957_964x652.jpg

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    • Replies: @snorlax
    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b1/A_Pair_of_Broad_Bottoms.jpg
    , @syonredux
    https://i.pinimg.com/736x/fd/38/96/fd3896f631794b7234535cad71a2449a.jpg
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  25. @Corn
    “The Greeks had no idea of the existence of Amerindians, Australians, or Polynesians, and very little awareness of East Asians.”

    Right. In those more primitive times the Greeks may habe known of blacks via Egypt maybe. Just maybe.

    Alexander hadn’t gone to India yet.

    Would the ancient Greeks have known of China? I seem to recall the Roman Empire traded with China through intermediaries central Asia, but I’m hazy on if any Roman went to China or vice versa.

    There’s also the question of what time period we mean. The current best guess for the Trojan War was right after 1200 BC during the Late Bronze Age Collapse. Presumably oral accounts of the war were repeated and refined over several hundreds years during the Greek dark age with what we know as the Iliad being written down in 800 or 700 BC, at least as close to the time of Socrates as that of Achilles.

    Presumably, Greeks were less aware of the bigger world at various points in this period than in, say, Aristotle’s time.

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    • Replies: @Bill B.
    At all times the Greeks seem to have been very conscious of themselves, to have been aware of the continuity of Greek history and to distinguish themselves from others from different, especially distant, cultures.

    The Prof chap is twisting himself into knots to ask a non-question. IIRC ancient Greek has different words to describe people with whom one has something in common and people who are not necessarily enemies but with whom one has much less in common.

    Pericles' Funeral Oration (late 5th Century):

    "I will speak first of our ancestors, for it is right and seemly that now, when we are lamenting the dead, a tribute should be paid to their memory. There has never been a time when they did not inhabit this land, which by their valor they will have handed down from generation to generation, and we have received from them a free state."
     
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  26. songbird says:

    Is the Dukakis tank photo copyrighted or something?

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  27. Anonymous[400] • Disclaimer says:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackman

    Blackman, Originally Blæcmann, is an Old English name meaning “dark man”. The name was once given to Danish Vikings who settled in southern Scotland. It is also listed in the genealogy of the kings of Bernicia. Early on, it was commonly used as a first name. Variations: Blackmann, Blachman, Blackmun, Blackmon, Blakeman. Depending on how the old Anglo-Saxon blaec or blac were translated, the surname could also have had the exact opposite meaning from the above. “Blaec” meant dark/swarthy while blac meant fair/pale. The spelling of both words and their meanings were often confused and, over time, became interchangeable.

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  28. Lot says:
    @Percy Gryce
    Two cheers for Usenet. I was quite active on Usenet groups in the mid-'90s. For a while there were very good and accessible archives, then Google bought it and I thought we were assured of continued access to all those dialogues from back in the day. But now it seems increasingly difficult to find old Usenet posts. Anyone know the current status?
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    • Replies: @Percy Gryce
    See, that just proved my point. I searched my real name which I used freely on Usenet back in the day and not a single hit. Where are those millions of words?
    , @Benjaminl
    A fine example, for those of us who recall the Meow Wars.

    http://xahlee.info/Netiquette_dir/_/meow_wars.html
    https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/78k4g4/twenty-years-ago-trolling-was-repeatedly-posting-meow-in-usenet-groups


    Like Canter and Siegel, what seemed a weird anomaly in the 1990s turned out to be merely the New Normal.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laurence_Canter_and_Martha_Siegel
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  29. massive mountain rangers.

    Neanderthals?

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  30. The Ancient Greeks were racist against the Barbarians. Or maybe their stereotypes about Barbarians were accurate. I’ve been told repeatedly here that there’s a lot of accuracy about stereotypes.

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    • Replies: @David In TN
    Any so-called stereotype is based on reality.
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  31. Tiny Duck says:

    I would assume that most ancient peoples were Black or at least of Color

    It would make the most sense

    white skin is terrorism

    https://nirnewrites.com/2017/01/09/bathe-me-in-milk/

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    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
    Tiny Dick, were you sleeping in art class as well as history and English?

    BLACK is not a color; it is the absence of color.

    WHITE, on the other hand, IS a color.

    So your beloved "people of color" cannot refer to black/African people.

    As an actual Person of Color, i.e. a Person of Whiteness, I take umbrage, sir, and demand groveling apologies. You know, "a conversation about race."

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  32. syonredux says:
    @Jake Barnes
    As for Richard Burton “passing”, when my very, very, very Swamp Yankee White cousin was doing research in Uttar Pradesh all the Indians assumed he was Afghan. Burton took the greater risk since Indians weren’t about to get choppy choppy about it.

    As for Richard Burton “passing”, when my very, very, very Swamp Yankee White cousin was doing research in Uttar Pradesh all the Indians assumed he was Afghan.

    Robert E Howard wrote a series of stories about an early 20th century American adventurer named Kirby O’Donnell who operated in the Middle East. He usually posed as a Kurd, noting that his blue eyes posed no risk, as light eyes were not uncommon in the highlands.

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    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
    Sad to see anyone, but even more so such obviously kindred peoples, living under the cruel Arab-derived idiocy known as islam.
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  33. Anonymous[400] • Disclaimer says:
    @songbird
    One of the odder behaviors of the Left more recently, IMO, is the naked attempt by some to split Greeks off from other Europeans. To pretend that it was Northern Euros who had their boot on Greek necks and not the Turks.

    Somehow, I don't think making Achilles black will convince Greeks to join the coalition.

    Turks from Turkey are basically Turkish speaking Greeks, Armenians, Georgians, Kurds, etc.

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    • Replies: @Hapalong Cassidy
    Yep, the original “Turks” from whom the Turkic languages came from were Mongoloid.
    , @Tex
    I've met a few Turks who had blond hair and blue eyes. Albanian ancestry can be found among some Turks.
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  34. Flip says:

    Geneticist Dienekes Pontikos says they were not very different from today’s Greeks.

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  35. @Lot
    groups.google.com

    https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/alt.fan.karl-malden.nose

    See, that just proved my point. I searched my real name which I used freely on Usenet back in the day and not a single hit. Where are those millions of words?

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    • Replies: @Lot
    A few things that might work:

    sign into google first

    search for your old email addresses

    Put quotes around your name "John Doe"

    Do the same with your old email

    It has been a long time since I tried, but I had no problem finding ancient usenet posts using google groups.

    There are also paid usenet archives with free trials that might have what you are looking for.
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  36. snorlax says:
    @syonredux
    https://i.pinimg.com/736x/10/46/86/104686f283c52ebba2c6da83628b93df.jpg

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    To preserve his Victorian sense of propriety, and to avoid any hint of lewdness, Francis Galton, Charles Darwin's cousin, used a sextant - and calculation - to gauge the vital statistics of various nude Hottentot women whilst sojourning in South Africa.

    All for the strictest, purest ethnographic research, of course.
    , @RadicalCenter
    Baby Got Back. "Yo, Cosmo thinks you're fat? Tell 'im I like it like that." -- Lord-Mix-A-Lot
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  37. Anon[362] • Disclaimer says:

    It’s hilarious how the ancients considered marble to be a sort of cheap substrate to be painted over and covered up with the good stuff, paint. It’s like the way styrofoam or fiberglas or plaster is used today.

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    • Replies: @I, commenter

    considered marble to be a sort of cheap substrate to be painted over
     
    It is a soft stone which makes it optimal for carving.


    On another note, like Egyptians who have slowly become black, or Alexander Hamilton, the truth does not matter to the progressive left. They just keep winning at this stuff. A decade ago the only 'nation of immigrant's argument they would use would be in America or Canada, now they are using it in the UK and Europe. "Oh we've always been multicultural, what's the big deal'.
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  38. Sounds like somebody hasn’t been paying attention to DNA science since Bill Clinton’s 2000 Rose Garden speech on how cataloging one genome somehow proved that race didn’t exist.

    I mainly see the standard boilerplate conflating of “skin color” with “race” and the subsequent bashing of his idiotic straw man conflation. This is my primary objection to usage of “black” to describe Sub-Saharan Africans. Their color is irrelevant. All the words used historically and now considered pejorative by the PC/SJWs only became pejorative due to their association with the behavioral characteristics of the population in question. Now they impugn more benign dark pigmented peoples by association on color spectrum alone.

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    • Replies: @Autochthon
    Negro. Amerindian. Hindoo. Oriental.

    These sort of term are much more meaningful than black, Indian, Asian – and certainly more useful than the shorthand of colours – white, yellow (for Filipinos and alabaster Japanese or Koreans, c'mon!), red, etc.
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  39. snorlax says:
    @Corn
    “The Greeks had no idea of the existence of Amerindians, Australians, or Polynesians, and very little awareness of East Asians.”

    Right. In those more primitive times the Greeks may habe known of blacks via Egypt maybe. Just maybe.

    Alexander hadn’t gone to India yet.

    Would the ancient Greeks have known of China? I seem to recall the Roman Empire traded with China through intermediaries central Asia, but I’m hazy on if any Roman went to China or vice versa.

    The Greek Seleucid kingdom in Persia (established after Alexander’s conquests) certainly knew about China. Greeks in Greece, probably not.

    A few Romans went to China but not Chinese ever went to Europe that we know of. The Byzantine emperor Justinian (r. A.D. 527-525) famously arranged the smuggling of silk worms from China to Europe, breaking the Chinese monopoly. The Chinese on the other hand never bothered to figure out how the blown glass they imported from Rome was produced, even though the process was as simple as could be and required no such elaborate capers to replicate.

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    • Replies: @syonredux

    Gan Ying (Chinese: 甘英; pinyin: Gān Yīng; Wade–Giles: Kan1 Ying1), was a Chinese military ambassador who was sent on a mission to Rome in 97 CE by the Chinese general Ban Chao.

    Although Gan Ying never reached Rome, only travelling to as far as the "western sea" which either refers to the Black Sea or the Parthian coast of the Persian Gulf, he is, at least in the historical records, the Chinese who went the furthest west during antiquity, and he gathered what information he could.
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gan_Ying
    , @snorlax
    *no Chinese
    *r. A.D. 527-565
    , @Difference maker
    I'm not sure they cared that much about glass. Chinese steel was also looked upon favorably by the Romans
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  40. syonredux says:
    @syonredux
    https://i.pinimg.com/736x/10/46/86/104686f283c52ebba2c6da83628b93df.jpg

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  41. Someone should tell Donna Zuckerberg that if the ancient Greeks were black, that the ancient Jews (Moses, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David, and Saul, etc) must have been positively Congolese, right?

    All kidding aside, the facial features on the Greek statues are Caucasian-looking.

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  42. syonredux says:
    @Corn
    “The Greeks had no idea of the existence of Amerindians, Australians, or Polynesians, and very little awareness of East Asians.”

    Right. In those more primitive times the Greeks may habe known of blacks via Egypt maybe. Just maybe.

    Alexander hadn’t gone to India yet.

    Would the ancient Greeks have known of China? I seem to recall the Roman Empire traded with China through intermediaries central Asia, but I’m hazy on if any Roman went to China or vice versa.

    Would the ancient Greeks have known of China? I seem to recall the Roman Empire traded with China through intermediaries central Asia, but I’m hazy on if any Roman went to China or vice versa.

    The Chinese on the Roman Empire:

    http://depts.washington.edu/silkroad/texts/weilue/weilue.html#section11

    http://depts.washington.edu/silkroad/texts/weilue/weilue.html

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  43. syonredux says:
    @snorlax
    The Greek Seleucid kingdom in Persia (established after Alexander's conquests) certainly knew about China. Greeks in Greece, probably not.

    A few Romans went to China but not Chinese ever went to Europe that we know of. The Byzantine emperor Justinian (r. A.D. 527-525) famously arranged the smuggling of silk worms from China to Europe, breaking the Chinese monopoly. The Chinese on the other hand never bothered to figure out how the blown glass they imported from Rome was produced, even though the process was as simple as could be and required no such elaborate capers to replicate.

    Gan Ying (Chinese: 甘英; pinyin: Gān Yīng; Wade–Giles: Kan1 Ying1), was a Chinese military ambassador who was sent on a mission to Rome in 97 CE by the Chinese general Ban Chao.

    Although Gan Ying never reached Rome, only travelling to as far as the “western sea” which either refers to the Black Sea or the Parthian coast of the Persian Gulf, he is, at least in the historical records, the Chinese who went the furthest west during antiquity, and he gathered what information he could.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gan_Ying

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  44. snorlax says:

    Of course, if the Greeks were black, it would disprove certain stereotypes.

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    • LOL: Bliss
    • Replies: @Pat Boyle
    The penis size issue must throw at least a little cold water on the notion that the Ancient Greeks were black. The Greeks apparently considered a small penis to be more attractive and a large penis to be less so. This can be seen on many of the vase decorations that depict heroes and Gods. And I am pretty sure there is no passage in the Iliad where some hoplite exclaims " Hey, that Achilles dude is hung like a horse".
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  45. (as if using anglophone northern European actors were any less anachronistic).

    Anachronistic is not really the right word there, but we can kind of get the point.

    And that point is, if we’re not going to be 100% accurate in our depiction of an ancient character, who was likely a Southern European, would it be more accurate to depict that character as a Northern European or an African? And the answer is obviously Northern European.

    For starters they are the same race, and because they are the same race the genetic distance between a NE and a SE is more than a hundred times smaller than the genetic distance between a SE and an African. Seems simple right?

    Do I just think more logically, clearly, better, than this author; or this author trying to pull wool over the eyes?

    Here’s a good video I saw on this sort of psychological warfare.

    Writing Europeans Out of Their Own History

    Another very good video on “the question” of white culture

    Greeks simply didn’t think of the world as starkly divided along racial lines into black and white:

    In these matters do people not understand black and white to simply be alternative terms for say, African and European?

    Are they deliberately muddying the waters to prevent good faith conversation?

    they differentiated themselves from the darker peoples of Africa and India, sometimes in aggressively dismissive terms that we would now call racist;

    Hear that racists? The Greeks were racist! But they’re not your racists! They didn’t even have a race! To say so is racist. Stop being racist, racists!

    Greeks did not, by and large, think of themselves as ‘white’.

    As you just said, they thought of themselves as a distinct group from their place in the world compared to other distinct groups from their places in the world.

    That they didn’t use the same terminology as us moderns is to be expected.

    Their place in the world is a place we moderns call white, if their oracles had time machines from which they could travel into the future and bring back our vocabulary then they could call themselves white, but drats, they didn’t, so the author can make this totally pointless point.

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    • Agree: Almost Missouri
    • Replies: @International Jew

    Anachronistic is not really the right word there, but we can kind of get the point.
     
    That rubbed me the wrong way too but Wiktionary https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/anachronism doesn't rule out a "bidirectional" usage. Moreover, what with the author being a classicist, you know he'd make damn sure he didn't misuse a word like that. I can't think of a better word. Proleptic maybe? Nah, not really.
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  46. snorlax says:
    @snorlax
    The Greek Seleucid kingdom in Persia (established after Alexander's conquests) certainly knew about China. Greeks in Greece, probably not.

    A few Romans went to China but not Chinese ever went to Europe that we know of. The Byzantine emperor Justinian (r. A.D. 527-525) famously arranged the smuggling of silk worms from China to Europe, breaking the Chinese monopoly. The Chinese on the other hand never bothered to figure out how the blown glass they imported from Rome was produced, even though the process was as simple as could be and required no such elaborate capers to replicate.

    *no Chinese
    *r. A.D. 527-565

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  47. gruff says:
    @psmith
    WE

    WUZ

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    • Replies: @WHAT
    KANGS
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  48. Lurker says:

    Presumably there are two priorities here.

    One is to imply that only modern whites are guilty of the crime of noticing, unlike enlightened people of the past who were apparently colour blind.

    The other is to help undermine white history and appropriate it for The Other. A nihilistic and demoralising exercise.

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    • Agree: International Jew
    • Replies: @Lagertha
    This frenzy by academics/journalists/socialists/studio heads, to constantly, disenfranchise Europeans and people of European descent, of their own history & culture is just abhorrent. Average people with no university education are also noticing the odious arguments these creepy, supposedly educated professors, disingenuous journalists, constantly spout. Denigrating all people of European and particularly, Christian background will backfire. I see signs of it already.

    Everyday, when I read these bs arguments that Scandinavian and European people were just immigrants to their countries with no right to claim the land they have lived on for millennia as their country, I want to lash out so badly. Therefore, I insist that we get rid of all, and every form of AA in Europe/the US/Canada/Australia/NZ. If no one is black/brown/white/red/yellow (how did these latter 2 get quashed so easily by the cheerleaders of diversity?), then we need no AA for university admits/jobs in the corporate arena. If race is nothing then AA is not justified to exist.

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  49. Cherchez la famille of La Zuckerberg, i.e., her Chinese sister-in-law and Chinese nieces. La Zuckerberg is trying to rewrite Western history for her brother’s Chinese offspring. Marc Zuckerberg loves Rome. He loves it so much he married a Chinese woman and now needs to square this circle. If there are any blacks in the Zuckerberg clan, they need to feel a part of the West. The West is not black/Asian/Jewish/Muslim. We know not only that the Greeks were white, but that the ancient Egyptians were Caucasians.

    In 1900, the English knew the Greeks were Europeans. Lord Bryon told the English about the Greeks. Dukakis would have been called swarthy.

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  50. @syonredux

    Last year in an article published in Forbes, the Classics scholar Sarah Bond at the University of Iowa caused a storm by pointing out that many of the Greek statues that seem white to us now were in antiquity painted in colour.
     
    Dunno. Even with the color restored, they still look pretty White.....

    http://eu.greekreporter.com/files/statues-apollo.jpg

    This year, it was the turn of BBC’s new television series Troy: Fall of a City (2018-) to attract ire, which cast black actors in the roles of Achilles, Patroclus, Zeus, Aeneas and others (as if using anglophone northern European actors were any less anachronistic).
     
    Might want to read Reich's new book. Northern Europeans and Southern Europeans are more closely related to each other than they the are to Sub-Saharan Africans......

    My aim in this essay, rather, is to consider how the Greeks themselves viewed differences in skin colour. The differences are instructive – and, indeed, clearly point up the oddity of the modern, western obsession with classification by pigmentation.

     

    Give a Sub-Saharan African a Baltic complexion, he's still not gonna look like a White guy. Color terms are just shorthand for a host of racial signifiers.

    This word is often translated as ‘blond’, a translation that gives a powerful steer to the modern imagination. But translation can be deceptive. As Maria Michel Sassi’s essay for Aeon makes clear, the Greek colour vocabulary simply doesn’t map directly onto that of modern English. Xanthos could be used for things that we would call ‘brown’, ‘ruddy’, ‘yellow’ or ‘golden’.
     
    On the other hand, we're pretty safe in assuming that his hair was non-Black/dark brown.


    Now, translating kuaneos (the root of the English ‘cyan’) as ‘blue’, as I have done here, is at first sight a bit silly: most translators take the word to mean ‘dark’. But given the usual colour of hyacinths, maybe – just maybe – he did have blue hair after all? Who knows; but here, certainly, is another example of just how alien the Homeric colour scheme is.

     

    Not that alien. After all, we have the term "blue-black" for especially dark hair, which evinces no lighter shades, not even the brightest sunlight.....

    And what of ‘black-skinned’? Was Odysseus in fact black? Or was he (as Emily Wilson’s acclaimed new translation renders it) ‘tanned’? Once again, we can see how different translations prompt modern readers to envisage these characters in completely different ways. But to understand the Homeric text, we need to shed these modern associations. Odysseus’ blackness, like Achilles’ xanthos hair, isn’t intended to play to modern racial categories;

     

    Just like pre-20th century Anglo writers:


    Jonathan Swift on the Duke of Somerset:

    Duke of Somerset:

    Is of a middle stature, well shaped, a very black complexion, a lover of music and poetry; of good judgment [not a grain;hardly common sense];but by reason of a great hesitation in his speech wants expression. He is about forty-two years old.
     

    In the fourteenth year of my age, by a fellow scholar of swarth, black complexion, I had like to have my right eye beaten out as we were at play

    William Lilly’s history of his life and times from the year 1602 to 1681, page 20
     
    A description of the inhabitants of the Western Isles of Scotland:

    The Inhabitants are generally well proportioned, and of a black Complexion; they speak only the Irish Tongue and use the Habit, Diet, and etc that is used in the Western Isles
     
    A description of Thomas, Earl of Ormonde:

    He was a very comely and graceful man, and of a black complexion, which gained him among the Irish the surname of Duffe

    A History of the Life of James Duke of Ormonde, Volume 1, page Lxiv
     

    Greeks certainly noticed different shades of pigmentation (of course), and they differentiated themselves from the darker peoples of Africa and India, sometimes in aggressively dismissive terms that we would now call racist;
     
    Indeed:

    http://img.4plebs.org/boards/pol/image/1474/85/1474858042845.jpg

    Greeks and Romans, well acquainted with their contemporaries, differentiated between the various gradations of color in Mediterranean populations and made it clear that only some of the black- or dark-skinned peoples, those coming from the south of Egypt and the southern fringes of northwest Africa, were Ethiopians, i.e. Negroes. Ethiopians, known as the blackest peoples on earth, became the yardstick by which classical authors measured the color of others. In first century AD, Manilius described Ethiopians as the blackest; Indians, less sunburnt; Egyptians, mildly dark; with Moors the lightest in this color scheme. In other words, to all these peoples–Ethiopians, Indians, Egyptians, and Moors–who were darker than the Greeks and Romans, classical authors applied color-words but it should be emphasized that in general the ancients described only one of these–Ethiopians–as unmistakably Negroid.
     
    http://library.howard.edu/content.php?pid=554250

    In the upper (ie, southern) part of the Nile valley, in modern Sudan, lay another magnificent civilisation known variously as Kush, the Meroitic kingdom and Nubia.
     
    Magnificent compared to what? Its culture was a mere echo of Egypt's....

    The Greeks came to call this place ‘Ethiopia’, which can mean ‘land of the burnt-faced people’.
     
    Sounds like a decent descriptive for Sub-Saharan Africans....

    But there are also vases that show mythical combatants with (exaggerated) African features, who might or might not be Memnon and his warriors.

     

    Wait, so racial differences are not limited to skin color?Who knew?

    The big question, of course, is whether we can say anything about what Greeks themselves looked like. Here we have to tread especially carefully, because there are a lot of traps. People often and very easily refer to ancient Greeks as ‘European’, as if the meaning of that term were self-evident. But ‘Europe’ is a historical construct, not a fact of nature.

     

    Again, read Reich's book. Europeans are pretty closely related to each other....

    To quote the paper, Minoan Greeks took ‘at least three-quarters of their ancestry from the first Neolithic farmers of western Anatolia and the Aegean, and most of the remainder from ancient populations related to those of the Caucasus and Iran’. DNA from the Mycenaean period (taken as 1700-1200 BCE) saw new genetic input from the Eurasian Steppe or Armenia.
     
    Well, with that mix, I would say that it's a safe bet that they didn't look like Sub-Saharan Africans....

    The upshot is that we can be pretty confident that ancient Greeks were similar in genotype and phenotype to modern Greeks.
     
    http://metaxas-project.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/nelly-nellys-greek-photographer-metaxas-fascism-01.png

    https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-
    FGGgpaXOTtI/WLaNSxuqvAI/AAAAAAACD4E/U0ZW_0uzt98PWpypZkcQKayUKLQ0Eff8gCLcB/s1600/nellys-greek.JPG





    https://classicgrandtour.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/cf86cf89cf84cebfceb3cf81ceaccf86cebfcf82-nelly-cf80ceb1cf81ceb1cebbcebbceb7cebbceb9cf83cebccebfceaf.jpg


    https://78.media.tumblr.com/a6e63490e7e820afb50f424c50a0a79f/tumblr_ovr6yukWkB1sjmae6o1_500.jpg

    You know, your picture of the painted statue got to me thinking: maybe Trump is black? ;-)

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  51. @niteranger
    This stuff will never end. These are the same dickheads who think that Cleopatra the 7th was black. Of course any reading of history would show she was part of a Macedonian Dynasty. And the blacks built the pyramids...not. It appears genetic evidence shows the people who live in Egypt now are the nearest genetically to the pyramid builders.

    The Black Athena Ruse (as one anthropologist I knew labeled it) is all part of reconditioning of the White Race to believe they are all wrong about all of history. I grew up in a community that had many Greeks. There varied in skin shade from extremely white to light tan. The Lebanese who lived there were always a darker shade than any of the Greeks. Some Greeks were very fair with blondish hair (women). Many of these I think were part Italian...Northern Italian. I don't ever remember seeing any Greeks in my area who were super dark. In fact, Dukakis was a lot darker than any Greek in my town.

    What's really amazing about the people in academia who write this nonsense is that they don't realize how racists blacks are against other blacks of darker skin tone. Ali versus Frazier was all about the pretty light skinned Ali versus the dark street black of Frazier and of course properly promoted and framed by Howard Cosell and other Jews.

    The Black Athena Ruse (as one anthropologist I knew labeled it) is all part of reconditioning of the White Race to believe they are all wrong about all of history.

    No, it’s more about memory holing the fact that until startlingly recently essentially all of Sub-Saharan Africa looked exactly like Sentinel Island or one of the “uncontacted” Amazonian tribes. Full on commonplace cannibalism, unspeakable savage butchery of women and children, etc – these were described in detail by European explorers and “discoverers” into the 20th Century. This isn’t the remarkable Chinese rise from poverty in a century, this is an attempted forklift upgrade of an entire Continent from the Stone Age to the Space Age in a century.

    100% of our academic effort it seems is dedicated to obfuscation of this central fact and it’s ramifications in both successes and failures. Considering that pure barbarism of the sort seen in Liberia’s warlord era is today less common is a major win, but looking too carefully at Haiti, Detroit, St Louis, Baltimore, etc, far too glaringly shows failure under even optimized conditions.

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  52. Anonymous[326] • Disclaimer says:

    From the link, Donna’s book looks really… bad. The cover art depicted on the Harvard page is horrible. It looks like it comes from Paintshop in Windows 3.1. Probably someone knows this, and thought this was very clever, but really it just looks like crap.

    The description makes things worse: “Donna Zuckerberg dives deep…”. This is being presented as a serious academic book?! To me, the phrase “deep dive” is entirely meant as a signal that something is not utterly mindless. Yes, I am a “journalist”, but I actually tried to think! I did a podcast and it is 20 minutes long (ugh…) and I actually listened to someone else! (They were racist… but I tried to understand…)

    But… maybe some “intern” wrote this and Donna really is trying.

    I was actually intending to read this book, thinking it might be some sort of slightly worthy opposition.

    But now…

    I’d be willing to write it. Seriously. For the right amount of money (lot$$$$), Donna could pay me as a ghostwriter. I think she knows someone who could find ways to track me down and send me a personal email. Pay money up front, and I will produce an excellent book that will appear under Donna’s name, and win her accolades for an excellent expose of how shifty online white men exploit history and the interwebz to push hate. No need for email, even. Just put enough money in my bank account, directly, and I accept the deal.

    If I suddenly find enough money in my bank account, I WILL DO THIS.

    (I won’t sign any lifetime confidentiality agreements…)

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    • Replies: @MEH 0910
    http://www.hup.harvard.edu/images/jackets/9780674975552-lg.jpg
    , @DFH

    A virulent strain of antifeminism is thriving online that treats women’s empowerment as a mortal threat to men and to the integrity of Western civilization. Its proponents cite ancient Greek and Latin texts to support their claims—arguing that they articulate a model of masculinity that sustained generations but is now under siege.
     

    Donna Zuckerberg dives deep into the virtual communities of the far right, where men lament their loss of power and privilege, and strategize about how to reclaim them. She finds, mixed in with weightlifting tips and misogynistic vitriol, the words of the Stoics deployed to support an ideal vision of masculine life. On other sites, pickup artists quote Ovid’s Ars Amatoria to justify ignoring women’s boundaries. By appropriating the Classics, these men lend a veneer of intellectual authority and ancient wisdom to their project of patriarchal white supremacy. In defense or retaliation, feminists have also taken up the Classics online, to counter the sanctioning of violence against women.
     
    Donna seems rather het up about the whole alt-right thing
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  53. @William Gaunt
    What does Homer say?

    Achilles was blonde. “ ... Minerva came down from heaven ... and seized the son of Peleus by his yellow hair ...”

    Menelaus had legs as white as ivory. “As when some woman of Meonia or Caria strains purple dye on to a piece of ivory ... even so, O Menelaus, were your shapely thighs and your legs down to your fair ankles stained with blood.”

    I think blonde back then probably meant a lighter brown shade- something that would look golden in the sunlight but not the modern more yellow conception of blonde. Frescoes of Alexander the Great, who was famously described as blond, show a guy with bronze/light brown hair. It’s pretty clear true blondes are the anomaly among ALL Europeans outside of the Baltic region. In fact since it’s a relatively recent mutation that likely spread due to it being attractive in women, there were probably even fewer blondes in antiquity than today. Blue eyes are likely older though.

    Truth is there isn’t a huge difference between middle Easterners (save Gulf Arabs and Egyptians because they have some recent SSA blood) and Europeans in terms of complexion- only something like 15-20 percent of Europeans are of the pasty can never tan variety. Guys with a look like Michael Huisman or Colin Farrel is more common across just about every part of Europe than guys with looks like Paul Bettany’s. And all three of those dudes are Northern Euros. Most whites would look tan and weathered and barely distinguisable from natives if dropped in say Afghanistan or Kurdistan for a few years and forced to do hard labor.

    We don’t have to prove Greeks were yellow-blonde just to prove they weren’t blacks. Why are people so obsessed with extremes of appearance?

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    • Replies: @syonredux

    I think blonde back then probably meant a lighter brown shade- something that would look golden in the sunlight but not the modern more yellow conception of blonde. Frescoes of Alexander the Great, who was famously described as blond, show a guy with bronze/light brown hair.
     
    https://powerimagepropaganda.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/alex-mosaic-271.jpg
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  54. … practically everybody south of Dover was said to be more or less “black.”

    Wogs start at Calais!

    Similarly, before American racial culture ideas took over the world, the English would even have talked of “black Irish.”

    Long live Think Lizzy!

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phil_Lynott

    … the transatlantic slave trade and the cruder aspects of 19th-century racial theory.

    Why don’t they ever talk about the trans-Mediterranean slave trade? Do they actually believe the Spaniards and Portuguese actually came up with the idea of enslaving blacks all on their own?

    … but they also differentiated themselves from the paler peoples of the North

    The Hyperboreans? ;-)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperborea#Physical_appearance

    “We might add that modern geneticists too find classification by skin colour unhelpful …”

    No true racialist equates race exclusively with skin pigmentation–that’s a straw man. Have you ever seen a black albino? I have. Despite the fact that he was whiter than I am, I still knew right away–even before he opened his mouth–that he was really black. The lips and the curly hair gave it away … OK, and the dashiki helped too.

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    • Replies: @foolisholdman
    Some time in the '70s, Heffer's Bookshop in the centre of Cambridge (UK) had an exhibition in their window, of ancient manuscripts from Moorish Spain. One, that was translated, said words to the effect that: "To the North of the Pyrranees, there lives a race of white giants, who are so stupid that they do not even make useful slaves."
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  55. Gordo says:

    Partick O’Brien (Richard Partick Russ) the author, writing in the 1960s but deliberately using the speech of the 1800s, described himself as a ‘black man’.

    By which he meant he had black hair.

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  56. Anonymous[270] • Disclaimer says:
    @Percy Gryce
    Two cheers for Usenet. I was quite active on Usenet groups in the mid-'90s. For a while there were very good and accessible archives, then Google bought it and I thought we were assured of continued access to all those dialogues from back in the day. But now it seems increasingly difficult to find old Usenet posts. Anyone know the current status?

    Usenet is in massive decline but still exists. Several commercial and a few free newsservers are operational, some ISPs still provide free access to a newsserver. But there are basically no new users. A pity because newsreaders provided a richer, more usable UI than today’s “forums” and blogs (unz.com is a clear standout in that respect).

    Dejanews archive was infested and corrupted by Googlegroups to the extent that any reasonable searches are no longer possible.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    There are a few new Usenet users.

    For that matter, you can still get a PLATO account!

    https://www.cyber1.org/
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  57. Dukakis was a short, beetle-browed Harvard instructor with a Jewish wife and he bragged about his ACLU membership. In other words, he was the first Jewish nominee. He won 10 states.

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  58. Actually, La Zuckerberg’s book is scheduled for publication in January 2019.

    Does the dust jacket bio say she was born in Kenya?

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  59. MEH 0910 says:
    @Anonymous
    From the link, Donna's book looks really... bad. The cover art depicted on the Harvard page is horrible. It looks like it comes from Paintshop in Windows 3.1. Probably someone knows this, and thought this was very clever, but really it just looks like crap.

    The description makes things worse: "Donna Zuckerberg dives deep...". This is being presented as a serious academic book?! To me, the phrase "deep dive" is entirely meant as a signal that something is not utterly mindless. Yes, I am a "journalist", but I actually tried to think! I did a podcast and it is 20 minutes long (ugh...) and I actually listened to someone else! (They were racist... but I tried to understand...)

    But... maybe some "intern" wrote this and Donna really is trying.

    I was actually intending to read this book, thinking it might be some sort of slightly worthy opposition.

    But now...

    I'd be willing to write it. Seriously. For the right amount of money (lot$$$$), Donna could pay me as a ghostwriter. I think she knows someone who could find ways to track me down and send me a personal email. Pay money up front, and I will produce an excellent book that will appear under Donna's name, and win her accolades for an excellent expose of how shifty online white men exploit history and the interwebz to push hate. No need for email, even. Just put enough money in my bank account, directly, and I accept the deal.

    If I suddenly find enough money in my bank account, I WILL DO THIS.

    (I won't sign any lifetime confidentiality agreements...)

    Read More
    • Replies: @snorlax
    Caption contest.
    , @Stebbing Heuer
    I can't even ...
    , @DFH
    >tfw no statue m8 to point at thots with
    , @Anonymous
    This is homophobic! OUTRAGE!
    They have very "cleverly" positioned Pythian Apollo so that he is "slaying" the bro's "serpent".
    They probably had several meeting where they discussed this in depth, and had some laughs about how this would really put one over on the enemy.
    But if the bro is really gay and likes that sort of thing, shouldn't the young lady on the left embrace him and encourage him to accept his true self? Why are we being encouraged to mock his self-hatred?
    DONNA MUST APOLOGIZE!
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  60. snorlax says:
    @MEH 0910
    http://www.hup.harvard.edu/images/jackets/9780674975552-lg.jpg

    Caption contest.

    Read More
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  61. Lot says:
    @Percy Gryce
    See, that just proved my point. I searched my real name which I used freely on Usenet back in the day and not a single hit. Where are those millions of words?

    A few things that might work:

    sign into google first

    search for your old email addresses

    Put quotes around your name “John Doe”

    Do the same with your old email

    It has been a long time since I tried, but I had no problem finding ancient usenet posts using google groups.

    There are also paid usenet archives with free trials that might have what you are looking for.

    Read More
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  62. syonredux says:
    @S. Anonyia
    I think blonde back then probably meant a lighter brown shade- something that would look golden in the sunlight but not the modern more yellow conception of blonde. Frescoes of Alexander the Great, who was famously described as blond, show a guy with bronze/light brown hair. It’s pretty clear true blondes are the anomaly among ALL Europeans outside of the Baltic region. In fact since it’s a relatively recent mutation that likely spread due to it being attractive in women, there were probably even fewer blondes in antiquity than today. Blue eyes are likely older though.

    Truth is there isn’t a huge difference between middle Easterners (save Gulf Arabs and Egyptians because they have some recent SSA blood) and Europeans in terms of complexion- only something like 15-20 percent of Europeans are of the pasty can never tan variety. Guys with a look like Michael Huisman or Colin Farrel is more common across just about every part of Europe than guys with looks like Paul Bettany’s. And all three of those dudes are Northern Euros. Most whites would look tan and weathered and barely distinguisable from natives if dropped in say Afghanistan or Kurdistan for a few years and forced to do hard labor.

    We don’t have to prove Greeks were yellow-blonde just to prove they weren’t blacks. Why are people so obsessed with extremes of appearance?

    I think blonde back then probably meant a lighter brown shade- something that would look golden in the sunlight but not the modern more yellow conception of blonde. Frescoes of Alexander the Great, who was famously described as blond, show a guy with bronze/light brown hair.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Ask the Greek
    Not much has changed since then regarding the meaning of blonde, at least in Greece. Here's Giannis Ioannidis, famous Greek basketball coach in the 80s and 90s and former Greek MP and Minister, aptly nicknamed "The Blond":

    https://i.imgur.com/PZzu8Ig.jpg
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  63. j says: • Website

    A more interesting issue is why Greek statues have very small penises? They were also very short. And what about their horses that look like ponies?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    As with the early Aryans of India, the small penis was considered the ideal and big ones vulgar and uncouth. This appears in the Kama Sutra if memory serves.

    It's interesting to note that in sub-Saharan Africa, some tribes have men with substantially larger than "normal" ones, some don't. But both Dominicans and Haitians are famously bejingled, even though one is a mulatto group with a whiter than average overclass (who are just as huge on average-the famous Porfirio Rubirosa was, if bigger than average, still not particularly noteworthy for size amongst fellow Dominicans, and he was probably much whiter than the average Dominican) and the other is almost pure Congoid.

    Today, while it might not be considered an ideal or even desirable, the one nation with men who are on average on the smaller side, is Japan. Japanese condoms are actually made to a smaller standard size-the machines use a mandrel that is thinner than used anywhere else. Japan is probably the racially purest nation left on the planet as well. So maybe the Greeks and ancient Indians found that the best specimens of men in terms of other qualities besides sexual attraction or performance (and after all, what the women thought was of no import!) tended to be more modestly endowed, and purer, and that's why it became an ideal.
    , @syonredux

    A more interesting issue is why Greek statues have very small penises?
     
    In art, large phalli were associated with comically grotesque characters like Priapus and the satyrs.
    , @Alfa158
    The Classical esthetic sensibility regarded genitals as being the most animalistic part of the human body. As a result male genitals were represented in a dismissed scale to de-emphasize them. Female nudes were not as common as male nudes, but in their case the genitals were de-emphasized even further to a sort of featureless, hairless mons. I don’t know how much of that was a combination of trying to be more modest about depicting women, and a culturally homoerotic “ick!” attitude towards female naughty bits.
    , @HA
    A more interesting issue is why Greek statues have very small penises?

    Greeks associated small and non-erect penises with moderation, which was one of the key virtues that formed their view of ideal masculinity,” explains classics professor Andrew Lear...“There is the contrast between the small, non-erect penises of ideal men (heroes, gods, nude athletes etc) and the over-size, erect penises of Satyrs (mythic half-goat-men, who are drunkards and wildly lustful).”
     
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  64. Anonymous[354] • Disclaimer says:

    Author Whitmarsh is feeling the Zuckerberg money power.

    Donna Z is just a nasty ethno warrior trying to dynamite western civ.

    But Mark Z is more complex. He’s a Jew but he strongly identifies with champion Rome instead of victim Hebrews.

    I bet Mark thinks his sister is a lightweight malcontent.

    Read More
    • Replies: @julius caesar
    > champion Rome instead of victim Hebrews.

    The Hebrews had their revenge. Military victory and power does not imply spiritual victory.

    "The act of most spiritual revenge. It was the Jews who, with awe inspiring consistency, dared to invert the aristocratic value-equation (good = noble = powerful = beautiful = happy = beloved of God) and to hang onto this inversion with their teeth, the teeth of the most abysmal hatred (the hatred of impotence), saying, "the wretched alone are the good; the suffering, deprived, sick, ugly alone are pious, alone are blessed by God . . . and you, the powerful and noble, are on the contrary the evil, the cruel, the lustful, the insatiable, the godless to all eternity, and you shall be in all eternity the unblessed, the accursed, and damned!"

    Nietzsche - Genealogy of Morals
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  65. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @syonredux

    Last year in an article published in Forbes, the Classics scholar Sarah Bond at the University of Iowa caused a storm by pointing out that many of the Greek statues that seem white to us now were in antiquity painted in colour.
     
    Dunno. Even with the color restored, they still look pretty White.....

    http://eu.greekreporter.com/files/statues-apollo.jpg

    This year, it was the turn of BBC’s new television series Troy: Fall of a City (2018-) to attract ire, which cast black actors in the roles of Achilles, Patroclus, Zeus, Aeneas and others (as if using anglophone northern European actors were any less anachronistic).
     
    Might want to read Reich's new book. Northern Europeans and Southern Europeans are more closely related to each other than they the are to Sub-Saharan Africans......

    My aim in this essay, rather, is to consider how the Greeks themselves viewed differences in skin colour. The differences are instructive – and, indeed, clearly point up the oddity of the modern, western obsession with classification by pigmentation.

     

    Give a Sub-Saharan African a Baltic complexion, he's still not gonna look like a White guy. Color terms are just shorthand for a host of racial signifiers.

    This word is often translated as ‘blond’, a translation that gives a powerful steer to the modern imagination. But translation can be deceptive. As Maria Michel Sassi’s essay for Aeon makes clear, the Greek colour vocabulary simply doesn’t map directly onto that of modern English. Xanthos could be used for things that we would call ‘brown’, ‘ruddy’, ‘yellow’ or ‘golden’.
     
    On the other hand, we're pretty safe in assuming that his hair was non-Black/dark brown.


    Now, translating kuaneos (the root of the English ‘cyan’) as ‘blue’, as I have done here, is at first sight a bit silly: most translators take the word to mean ‘dark’. But given the usual colour of hyacinths, maybe – just maybe – he did have blue hair after all? Who knows; but here, certainly, is another example of just how alien the Homeric colour scheme is.

     

    Not that alien. After all, we have the term "blue-black" for especially dark hair, which evinces no lighter shades, not even the brightest sunlight.....

    And what of ‘black-skinned’? Was Odysseus in fact black? Or was he (as Emily Wilson’s acclaimed new translation renders it) ‘tanned’? Once again, we can see how different translations prompt modern readers to envisage these characters in completely different ways. But to understand the Homeric text, we need to shed these modern associations. Odysseus’ blackness, like Achilles’ xanthos hair, isn’t intended to play to modern racial categories;

     

    Just like pre-20th century Anglo writers:


    Jonathan Swift on the Duke of Somerset:

    Duke of Somerset:

    Is of a middle stature, well shaped, a very black complexion, a lover of music and poetry; of good judgment [not a grain;hardly common sense];but by reason of a great hesitation in his speech wants expression. He is about forty-two years old.
     

    In the fourteenth year of my age, by a fellow scholar of swarth, black complexion, I had like to have my right eye beaten out as we were at play

    William Lilly’s history of his life and times from the year 1602 to 1681, page 20
     
    A description of the inhabitants of the Western Isles of Scotland:

    The Inhabitants are generally well proportioned, and of a black Complexion; they speak only the Irish Tongue and use the Habit, Diet, and etc that is used in the Western Isles
     
    A description of Thomas, Earl of Ormonde:

    He was a very comely and graceful man, and of a black complexion, which gained him among the Irish the surname of Duffe

    A History of the Life of James Duke of Ormonde, Volume 1, page Lxiv
     

    Greeks certainly noticed different shades of pigmentation (of course), and they differentiated themselves from the darker peoples of Africa and India, sometimes in aggressively dismissive terms that we would now call racist;
     
    Indeed:

    http://img.4plebs.org/boards/pol/image/1474/85/1474858042845.jpg

    Greeks and Romans, well acquainted with their contemporaries, differentiated between the various gradations of color in Mediterranean populations and made it clear that only some of the black- or dark-skinned peoples, those coming from the south of Egypt and the southern fringes of northwest Africa, were Ethiopians, i.e. Negroes. Ethiopians, known as the blackest peoples on earth, became the yardstick by which classical authors measured the color of others. In first century AD, Manilius described Ethiopians as the blackest; Indians, less sunburnt; Egyptians, mildly dark; with Moors the lightest in this color scheme. In other words, to all these peoples–Ethiopians, Indians, Egyptians, and Moors–who were darker than the Greeks and Romans, classical authors applied color-words but it should be emphasized that in general the ancients described only one of these–Ethiopians–as unmistakably Negroid.
     
    http://library.howard.edu/content.php?pid=554250

    In the upper (ie, southern) part of the Nile valley, in modern Sudan, lay another magnificent civilisation known variously as Kush, the Meroitic kingdom and Nubia.
     
    Magnificent compared to what? Its culture was a mere echo of Egypt's....

    The Greeks came to call this place ‘Ethiopia’, which can mean ‘land of the burnt-faced people’.
     
    Sounds like a decent descriptive for Sub-Saharan Africans....

    But there are also vases that show mythical combatants with (exaggerated) African features, who might or might not be Memnon and his warriors.

     

    Wait, so racial differences are not limited to skin color?Who knew?

    The big question, of course, is whether we can say anything about what Greeks themselves looked like. Here we have to tread especially carefully, because there are a lot of traps. People often and very easily refer to ancient Greeks as ‘European’, as if the meaning of that term were self-evident. But ‘Europe’ is a historical construct, not a fact of nature.

     

    Again, read Reich's book. Europeans are pretty closely related to each other....

    To quote the paper, Minoan Greeks took ‘at least three-quarters of their ancestry from the first Neolithic farmers of western Anatolia and the Aegean, and most of the remainder from ancient populations related to those of the Caucasus and Iran’. DNA from the Mycenaean period (taken as 1700-1200 BCE) saw new genetic input from the Eurasian Steppe or Armenia.
     
    Well, with that mix, I would say that it's a safe bet that they didn't look like Sub-Saharan Africans....

    The upshot is that we can be pretty confident that ancient Greeks were similar in genotype and phenotype to modern Greeks.
     
    http://metaxas-project.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/nelly-nellys-greek-photographer-metaxas-fascism-01.png

    https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-
    FGGgpaXOTtI/WLaNSxuqvAI/AAAAAAACD4E/U0ZW_0uzt98PWpypZkcQKayUKLQ0Eff8gCLcB/s1600/nellys-greek.JPG





    https://classicgrandtour.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/cf86cf89cf84cebfceb3cf81ceaccf86cebfcf82-nelly-cf80ceb1cf81ceb1cebbcebbceb7cebbceb9cf83cebccebfceaf.jpg


    https://78.media.tumblr.com/a6e63490e7e820afb50f424c50a0a79f/tumblr_ovr6yukWkB1sjmae6o1_500.jpg

    My first reaction to the bottom picture was that it was Arlene Martel in makeup as Spock’s Vulcan wife :

    Read More
    • Replies: @Pat Boyle
    Are these two from Vulcan or Rivendell?
    , @syonredux
    https://fanart.tv/fanart/music/ded5d5ce-7814-4aef-b01a-8549c3e803c1/albumcover/odes-51d4cd7877c92.jpg


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irene_Papas
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  66. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @j
    A more interesting issue is why Greek statues have very small penises? They were also very short. And what about their horses that look like ponies?

    As with the early Aryans of India, the small penis was considered the ideal and big ones vulgar and uncouth. This appears in the Kama Sutra if memory serves.

    It’s interesting to note that in sub-Saharan Africa, some tribes have men with substantially larger than “normal” ones, some don’t. But both Dominicans and Haitians are famously bejingled, even though one is a mulatto group with a whiter than average overclass (who are just as huge on average-the famous Porfirio Rubirosa was, if bigger than average, still not particularly noteworthy for size amongst fellow Dominicans, and he was probably much whiter than the average Dominican) and the other is almost pure Congoid.

    Today, while it might not be considered an ideal or even desirable, the one nation with men who are on average on the smaller side, is Japan. Japanese condoms are actually made to a smaller standard size-the machines use a mandrel that is thinner than used anywhere else. Japan is probably the racially purest nation left on the planet as well. So maybe the Greeks and ancient Indians found that the best specimens of men in terms of other qualities besides sexual attraction or performance (and after all, what the women thought was of no import!) tended to be more modestly endowed, and purer, and that’s why it became an ideal.

    Read More
    • Replies: @j
    ... which proves that Ancient Greeks were utterly unlike Haitians, Dominicans, Congoids and monstrous Porfirio Rubirosa.
    , @Truth

    As with the early Aryans of India, the small penis was considered the ideal and big ones vulgar and uncouth. This appears in the Kama Sutra if memory serves.

     

    Well it has to be nice to know that somewhere, at some point in time, you were once part of the "in" crowd; Old Sport.
    , @EdwardM

    As with the early Aryans of India, the small penis was considered the ideal and big ones vulgar and uncouth. This appears in the Kama Sutra if memory serves.
     
    Seems self-serving coming from Indians.
    , @Anonymous Human Intelligence Operative

    As with the early Aryans of India, the small penis was considered the ideal and big ones vulgar and uncouth. This appears in the Kama Sutra if memory serves.
     
    It is right after the part about how being short and bald is totally hot too.
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  67. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous
    Usenet is in massive decline but still exists. Several commercial and a few free newsservers are operational, some ISPs still provide free access to a newsserver. But there are basically no new users. A pity because newsreaders provided a richer, more usable UI than today's "forums" and blogs (unz.com is a clear standout in that respect).

    Dejanews archive was infested and corrupted by Googlegroups to the extent that any reasonable searches are no longer possible.

    There are a few new Usenet users.

    For that matter, you can still get a PLATO account!

    https://www.cyber1.org/

    Read More
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  68. DFH says:
    @Anonymous
    From the link, Donna's book looks really... bad. The cover art depicted on the Harvard page is horrible. It looks like it comes from Paintshop in Windows 3.1. Probably someone knows this, and thought this was very clever, but really it just looks like crap.

    The description makes things worse: "Donna Zuckerberg dives deep...". This is being presented as a serious academic book?! To me, the phrase "deep dive" is entirely meant as a signal that something is not utterly mindless. Yes, I am a "journalist", but I actually tried to think! I did a podcast and it is 20 minutes long (ugh...) and I actually listened to someone else! (They were racist... but I tried to understand...)

    But... maybe some "intern" wrote this and Donna really is trying.

    I was actually intending to read this book, thinking it might be some sort of slightly worthy opposition.

    But now...

    I'd be willing to write it. Seriously. For the right amount of money (lot$$$$), Donna could pay me as a ghostwriter. I think she knows someone who could find ways to track me down and send me a personal email. Pay money up front, and I will produce an excellent book that will appear under Donna's name, and win her accolades for an excellent expose of how shifty online white men exploit history and the interwebz to push hate. No need for email, even. Just put enough money in my bank account, directly, and I accept the deal.

    If I suddenly find enough money in my bank account, I WILL DO THIS.

    (I won't sign any lifetime confidentiality agreements...)

    A virulent strain of antifeminism is thriving online that treats women’s empowerment as a mortal threat to men and to the integrity of Western civilization. Its proponents cite ancient Greek and Latin texts to support their claims—arguing that they articulate a model of masculinity that sustained generations but is now under siege.

    Donna Zuckerberg dives deep into the virtual communities of the far right, where men lament their loss of power and privilege, and strategize about how to reclaim them. She finds, mixed in with weightlifting tips and misogynistic vitriol, the words of the Stoics deployed to support an ideal vision of masculine life. On other sites, pickup artists quote Ovid’s Ars Amatoria to justify ignoring women’s boundaries. By appropriating the Classics, these men lend a veneer of intellectual authority and ancient wisdom to their project of patriarchal white supremacy. In defense or retaliation, feminists have also taken up the Classics online, to counter the sanctioning of violence against women.

    Donna seems rather het up about the whole alt-right thing

    Read More
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  69. Dienekes has insisted for years that Ancient Greeks looked pretty much like modern Greeks, but based on the ‘Recurrent Aryanizaton’ pattern at the heart of European ethnicity for the last 6 millennia, plus the known, relatively large, amount of Near East DNA in the modern Greek genome, I never believed him. However, I recently checked what Eurogenes’ blog had on this: the number of Mycenaean-era DNA samples was relatively small, but if anything, as a group, they clustered slightly to the Near East side of modern Greeks.

    There is the whole issue of reduced sexual dimorphism in over-civilized populations, which judging from the modern West may have hyper-rapid genetic underpinnings. I’ve been to modern Laconia and Argos and it’s hard to believe more than one in a thousand men there looked like Leonidas or Agamemnon. Then again, if you looked at me it would be hard to believe I had an ancestor or two in the medieval heavy cavalry.

    But overall, Dienekes is probably right: Mycenaean and Classical Age Greeks looked pretty much like modern Greeks.

    Read More
    • Replies: @songbird
    That's basically my thought, but that sometimes they depicted their heroes or gods with rare features. I think it makes sense that gods would be described differently, and also demi-gods.
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  70. syonredux says:
    @j
    A more interesting issue is why Greek statues have very small penises? They were also very short. And what about their horses that look like ponies?

    A more interesting issue is why Greek statues have very small penises?

    In art, large phalli were associated with comically grotesque characters like Priapus and the satyrs.

    Read More
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  71. @songbird
    One of the odder behaviors of the Left more recently, IMO, is the naked attempt by some to split Greeks off from other Europeans. To pretend that it was Northern Euros who had their boot on Greek necks and not the Turks.

    Somehow, I don't think making Achilles black will convince Greeks to join the coalition.

    One of the odder behaviors of the Left more recently, IMO, is the naked attempt by some to split Greeks off from other Europeans. To pretend that it was Northern Euros who had their boot on Greek necks and not the Turks.

    Is Nicholas Taleb on the “Left”?

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    • Replies: @songbird

    Is Nicholas Taleb on the “Left”?
     
    I regret to say that I am only vaguely familiar with him, having never actually read one of his books. From what I know of him "Black Swan" becoming a popular phrase among college professors - contrasted with him not liking the idea of being called an Arab, I would tenuously label him center left, or more traditional left.

    Am I far off? Did he ever say anything about Greeks?
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  72. That’s because they didn’t get out much from the Mediterranean and Black Sea, where everybody was fairly similar racially because of the ease of transport, except for a small number of blackish people in Egypt from far up the Nile and perhaps a rare visitor from India.

    The Romans saw plenty of Sub-saharans. The Romans were just as likely to consider blond Germans “racially inferior” as black Africans. The Mediterranean peoples were the pinnacle of existence, and the further out you went, the more barbaric and contemptible the people were, with Britons probably at the bottom, certainly below the Nubians.

    Steve makes a good point though – neither the Greeks or Romans had much of a sense of the big picture. A lot of racial differences only make sense in the aggregate. I am sure if you saw a black Nubian prince bedecked in gold jewelry and exotic furs parading through Rome as a boy, and then got shipped as a legionary over to damp Britain were you saw dirty illiterate Celts living in huts covered with moss and daubing themselves with paint and tending pigs, you wouldn’t suspect “white” people were anything special. Poverty makes everyone look bad, which is why the English considered the Irish subhuman right up to the 20th century.

    A lot of the traits that have benefited white or East Asian people tremendously over the past thousand years – superior abstract thinking, organizational skills, longer time preferences, obedience, etc. – were also not particularly valued by Roman or Greek elites. Nice qualities to have in a slave perhaps, but not the kind of person a Roman leader aspired to be.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Unzerker

    I am sure if you saw a black Nubian prince bedecked in gold jewelry and exotic furs parading through Rome as a boy
     
    Which Nubian prince would that be?...Oh, you are just making it up.

    The fact that the Romans chose to occupy Britain and not Sudan speaks volumes.

    The Romans saw plenty of Sub-saharans.
     
    I really wonder how many sub-Saharan Africans there were in the Roman empire:

    They didn't sail along the western coast of Africa until the Spanish and Portuguese started doing in around the 14th century AD.
    They hadn't introduced camels in Africa until 3rd century AD to help them cross the thousands of km of desert.
    The Suez canal didn't exist and even if they used a boat to cross the red sea, they still had to traverse 200km of desert
    Even following the Nile down-flow doesn't seem to have been that easy.

    My guess is that they would have been a very rare sight outside of Egypt.
    , @YetAnotherAnon
    " The Romans were just as likely to consider blond Germans “racially inferior” as black Africans"

    Tacitus' portrait of the Germans is quite a sympathetic one, acknowledging their military prowess and approving of their morals.

    https://facultystaff.richmond.edu/~wstevens/history331texts/barbarians.html

    "Reckoning from that year to the second consulship of the emperor Trajan, we get a total of about two hundred and ten years. Such is the time it is taking to conquer Germany. In this long period much punishment has been given and taken. Neither by the Samnites nor by the Carthaginians, not by Spain or Gaul, or even by the Parthians, have we had more lessons taught us. The freedom of Germany is capable of more energetic action than the Arsacid despotism. After all, what has the East to taunt us with, except the slaughter of Crassus? And it soon lost its own prince Pacorus and was humbled at the feet of Ventidius. But the Germans routed or captured Carbo, Cassius, Aurelius Scaurus, Servilius Cacpio, and Mallius Maximus, and robbed the Republic, almost at one stroke, of five consular armies. Even from Augustus they took Varus and his three legions. And we had to pay a high price for the defeats inflicted upon them by Gaius Marius in Italy, by Julius Caesar in Gaul, and by Drusus, Tiberius, and Germanicus in their own country. The boastful threats of Gaius Caesar ended in farce. After that came a lull, until the Germans took advantage of our dissensions and civil wars to storm the quarters of the legions and make a bid for possession of Gaul."
    , @Difference Maker
    "The Germans, who combine great ferocity with great craft"

    "My mother bore a general, not a warrior"
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  73. Deedeedee says:

    As a child, I remember thoroughly enjoying reading about “Little Black Sambo,” and a few years later becoming aware of American Black intellectual roustabouts taking issue with the gentle tale. As a child, it was very clear to me he was an Indian child, who outwitted some bully tigers, and I couldn’t believe the resurging fuss later. Even attacking the local restaurant chain. I looked forward to getting treated to authentic Sambo pancakes! I remember later as a teen thinking, “there’s no tigers in Africa, you assholes! Leave Sambo alone!” But to no avail. Sambo’s restaurants were dismantled, except for the oRiginal that was founded in Santa Barbara, or somewhere around there, where you can STILL get Sambo’s Indian pancakes.

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  74. Saturday Night Live Transcripts
    Season 14: Episode 3 [1988]
    88c: John Larroquette / Randy Newman
    Vote Bush III
    [ show each President's head encircled over a North European country ]
    Announcer: Franklin Delano Roosevelt was of white northern European heritage.
    Thomas Jefferson was of white northern European heritage.
    John F. Kennedy was of white northern European heritage.
    George Herbert Walker Bush is of white northern European heritage.
    [ show Dukakis' encircled just above the Mediterranean Sea ]
    But Michael Dukakis?
    Bush. He’s whiter.
    [ SUPER: "Bush. He's Whiter." ]

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  75. AndrewR says:
    @Lot
    BBC's Troy is pretty bad judging from the first 2 episodes. The main characters that get the screen time, at least in those episodes, were white. But you see some hints that Achilles is going to be a wise, brave, perfect, awesome character like all black characters in historical dramas.

    Beyond the PC issues, the acting is stilted, the sets low rent, and dialog borders on campy, sort of a not-funny SJW version of Conan or Xena, Warrior Princess.

    The best Brit drama since Downton Abbey is Peaky Blinders.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peaky_Blinders_(TV_series)

    They have an ahistorical token black (in 1920 Birmingham, yeah right), and if course he's smart and brave and stands up to racism, but he's a minor character with maybe 6 minutes of screen time centered on him in the series. And they kind of make up for it with a delightful non-PC Italian and Jewish mobsters and Irish Republican thugs. And the Winston Churchill scenes are a lot better than the recent Churchill movie, and made me crave an early Churchill spin-off woth the same actors and writers.

    The show wasn't quite as good as the Sopranos or Sons of Anarchy, but it was close enough for me. The largest defect was primarily that the anti-hero was just too canny and clever and lucky to feel believable.

    This 7-episode Australian series from 2015 was also very good:
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallipoli_(miniseries)

    I stopped watching Peaky Blinders immediately after an angry character said “get your fucking hands off me!” I’m 99.9999% sure that an enraged Englishman in that era would have said “bloody,” which, back then, was arguably more taboo than “fucking” is now, in our degenerate era. Wiktionary doesn’t have much on “fucking” as an intensifier, but I imagine it is an Americanism only quite recently adopted into the British vocabulary. In any event, “bloody” really was a taboo word then.

    Presumably the writers/producers/director all thought that saying “bloody” would sound too tame to their linguistically/historically ignorant audience to whom “bloody” sounds quaint and utterly unoffensive. Or even worse, perhaps the people involved in the show are that ignorant themselves. But “fucking” certainly struck me as a bizarre anachronism. That sort of terrible anachronistic writing invariably ruins productions for me.

    From the wikipedia article on “bloody”:

    After about 1750 the word assumed more profane connotations. Johnson (1755) already calls it “very vulgar”, and the original Oxford English Dictionary article of 1888 comments the word is “now constantly in the mouths of the lowest classes, but by respectable people considered ‘a horrid word’, on par with obscene or profane language.”

    On the opening night of George Bernard Shaw’s comedy Pygmalion in 1914, Mrs Patrick Campbell, in the role of Eliza Doolittle, created a sensation with the line “Walk! Not bloody likely!” and this led to a fad for using “Pygmalion” itself as a pseudo-oath, as in “Not Pygmalion likely”,[5][6] and bloody was referred to as “the Shavian adjective” in polite society.

    The character Geoffrey Fisher in Keith Waterhouse’s play Billy Liar (1959) is notable for his continual use of the word ‘bloody’. Waterhouse’s stage directions make it clear that if this is considered offensive the word should be omitted entirely and not bowdlerised to ruddy or some other word.

    The use of ‘bloody’ in adult UK broadcasting aroused controversy in the 1960s and 1970s, but it has since become mild expletive and is used more freely

    .

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    • Replies: @DFH
    You'd be surprised how far some of these terms go back. Leonard C. Smither's 1894 translation of Catullus (59) gives 'blows' as the translation for 'fellat'
    , @syonredux

    I stopped watching Peaky Blinders immediately after an angry character said “get your fucking hands off me!” I’m 99.9999% sure that an enraged Englishman in that era would have said “bloody,” which, back then, was arguably more taboo than “fucking” is now, in our degenerate era. Wiktionary doesn’t have much on “fucking” as an intensifier, but I imagine it is an Americanism only quite recently adopted into the British vocabulary.
     
    Anachronistic obscenities are really annoying. One of the reasons why I could never get into Deadwood was because they had 1870s American cowboys talking like contemporary Black thugs.
    , @Randal

    this led to a fad for using “Pygmalion” itself as a pseudo-oath, as in “Not Pygmalion likely”
     
    That's interesting, because I can recall some people in the late C20th using the euphemism "pigging", as in "not pigging likely", which I had always assumed was just related to the animal, but that gives a much more plausible derivation.
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  76. WHAT says:
    @gruff
    WUZ

    KANGS

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    N ŠIIITE
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  77. j says: • Website
    @Anonymous
    As with the early Aryans of India, the small penis was considered the ideal and big ones vulgar and uncouth. This appears in the Kama Sutra if memory serves.

    It's interesting to note that in sub-Saharan Africa, some tribes have men with substantially larger than "normal" ones, some don't. But both Dominicans and Haitians are famously bejingled, even though one is a mulatto group with a whiter than average overclass (who are just as huge on average-the famous Porfirio Rubirosa was, if bigger than average, still not particularly noteworthy for size amongst fellow Dominicans, and he was probably much whiter than the average Dominican) and the other is almost pure Congoid.

    Today, while it might not be considered an ideal or even desirable, the one nation with men who are on average on the smaller side, is Japan. Japanese condoms are actually made to a smaller standard size-the machines use a mandrel that is thinner than used anywhere else. Japan is probably the racially purest nation left on the planet as well. So maybe the Greeks and ancient Indians found that the best specimens of men in terms of other qualities besides sexual attraction or performance (and after all, what the women thought was of no import!) tended to be more modestly endowed, and purer, and that's why it became an ideal.

    … which proves that Ancient Greeks were utterly unlike Haitians, Dominicans, Congoids and monstrous Porfirio Rubirosa.

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  78. DFH says:
    @AndrewR
    I stopped watching Peaky Blinders immediately after an angry character said "get your fucking hands off me!" I'm 99.9999% sure that an enraged Englishman in that era would have said "bloody," which, back then, was arguably more taboo than "fucking" is now, in our degenerate era. Wiktionary doesn't have much on "fucking" as an intensifier, but I imagine it is an Americanism only quite recently adopted into the British vocabulary. In any event, "bloody" really was a taboo word then.

    Presumably the writers/producers/director all thought that saying "bloody" would sound too tame to their linguistically/historically ignorant audience to whom "bloody" sounds quaint and utterly unoffensive. Or even worse, perhaps the people involved in the show are that ignorant themselves. But "fucking" certainly struck me as a bizarre anachronism. That sort of terrible anachronistic writing invariably ruins productions for me.

    From the wikipedia article on "bloody":

    After about 1750 the word assumed more profane connotations. Johnson (1755) already calls it "very vulgar", and the original Oxford English Dictionary article of 1888 comments the word is "now constantly in the mouths of the lowest classes, but by respectable people considered 'a horrid word', on par with obscene or profane language."

    On the opening night of George Bernard Shaw's comedy Pygmalion in 1914, Mrs Patrick Campbell, in the role of Eliza Doolittle, created a sensation with the line "Walk! Not bloody likely!" and this led to a fad for using "Pygmalion" itself as a pseudo-oath, as in "Not Pygmalion likely",[5][6] and bloody was referred to as "the Shavian adjective" in polite society.

    The character Geoffrey Fisher in Keith Waterhouse's play Billy Liar (1959) is notable for his continual use of the word 'bloody'. Waterhouse's stage directions make it clear that if this is considered offensive the word should be omitted entirely and not bowdlerised to ruddy or some other word.

    The use of 'bloody' in adult UK broadcasting aroused controversy in the 1960s and 1970s, but it has since become mild expletive and is used more freely
     

    .

    You’d be surprised how far some of these terms go back. Leonard C. Smither’s 1894 translation of Catullus (59) gives ‘blows’ as the translation for ‘fellat’

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  79. Realist says:

    Were the Ancient Greeks Black?

    Of course not….let’s move on.

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    • Replies: @Simon Tugmutton
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge%27s_law_of_headlines
    , @Jim Don Bob
    Yes. Next question.
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  80. ccanother says:
    @Corn
    “The Greeks had no idea of the existence of Amerindians, Australians, or Polynesians, and very little awareness of East Asians.”

    Right. In those more primitive times the Greeks may habe known of blacks via Egypt maybe. Just maybe.

    Alexander hadn’t gone to India yet.

    Would the ancient Greeks have known of China? I seem to recall the Roman Empire traded with China through intermediaries central Asia, but I’m hazy on if any Roman went to China or vice versa.

    The Taichi symbol appeared in China around ~900 AD I think. And there’re western astrology symbols appearing in China around that time. I once saw a Taichi symbol in ancient Roman shields. I am not aware anybody mentioning this, but I think the Taichi symbol might have moved along the silk road from west to east and then got employed by the Song dynasty philosophers and became the Taichi symbol as known today.

    At the time of Alexander, the westmost reach of China was around the Gansu province of today that’s some 1,500 kilometers east of Afghanistan.

    About 300 years later, the Han China reached the Afghan area and there Budhism got imported into China and later stired up further philosophical development in the Confucius school. One question I do not find the answers to is the westward spread of Budhism. Did any Budhist monks turn west from Afghan?

    I didn’t know ancient Greeks were black & homo. They gave us democracy and mathematics and now black skin and homophiles. They’re really the Peak Homo sapiens. One thing left: what about their bath rooms? The entire human history is not progress, it’s a giant regress since that golden age.

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  81. Greg Cochran says that in addition to three populations of Hunter-Gatherers, Farmers, And Yamnaya that created Europe:

    There appears to have been another, very early migration that brought a different flavor of farmer to the Peloponnese and Crete – groups with ancestry from the eastern of the Fertile Crescent (the Zagros mountains of Iran) that did not use pottery. This migration did not go past Greece.

    ( https://westhunt.wordpress.com/2018/05/01/who-we-are-9-europe/ )

    .. which might explain their looks and the earliness of their civilisation.

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  82. @Clifford Brown
    Al Sharpton knows the Score.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eorpMrHAi3E

    RIGHT ON, REV. AL! Trump doesn’t know shit about architexture!

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  83. Xenophanes of Colophon, circa 525 BC – my Ph.D. dissertation topics, 1970 – writes in fragment 16

    The Ethiopians make their gods black and snub-nosed; the Thracians say theirs have blue eyes and red hair.

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  84. (? OT) Recently I watched on television a series about the Norman Conquest, and was surprised to see that one of William’s advisers was a dark skinned male with African facial features. I would doubt that there were any black Africans in Normandy in the eleventh century, and I suspect that it was a sly attempt to rewrite history so that it conforms to current Leftist dogma. I am sure that if you asked the producer about the matter, he (or she) would have the chutzpah to respond “Well, how do you know that William didn’t have a black African adviser?”

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    • Replies: @Barnard
    I saw that program on the Smithsonian Channel as well. I think it was produced by the BBC. They have made a big push for casting minorities in historical programs in the last couple of years.
    , @Alfa158
    There is also a strong monetary incentive. There are a lot of African actors in Britain now, and they want work. If you make an accurate depiction of the Norman conquests, that means none of them will get any roles and they’ll scream bloody murder about whitewashing history. The recent Darkest Hour movie inserted a fabricated scene of Churchill using the tube so they could feature a Wise Negro quoting the classics and inspiring Winston to resist the invasion and occupation of Britain. (Phew! glad the British dodged that bullet, eh?).
    If you watch any of the historical BBC dramas closely you will spot African extras wandering through the town market or hanging around the court. Modern dramas will have non-Whites prominently shown in every single program, no matter what part of Britain it is set in, or how far back in time. The Versailles series even included Louis the XIVth’s Queen cuckolding him with the ambassador from (in effect) Wakanda.
    It’s not quite as bad as US TV which is on track to having a mandatory 50% casting for Africans, but getting closer.
    , @Kat Grey
    Unfortunately for Afrocentrics and self-hating white Leftwingers we have the Bayeaux Tapestry to prove that the Norman Conquest was not a multiracial enterprise with black Africans in the vanguard.
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  85. @Anonymous
    Turks from Turkey are basically Turkish speaking Greeks, Armenians, Georgians, Kurds, etc.

    Yep, the original “Turks” from whom the Turkic languages came from were Mongoloid.

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  86. @Anon
    It's hilarious how the ancients considered marble to be a sort of cheap substrate to be painted over and covered up with the good stuff, paint. It's like the way styrofoam or fiberglas or plaster is used today.

    considered marble to be a sort of cheap substrate to be painted over

    It is a soft stone which makes it optimal for carving.

    On another note, like Egyptians who have slowly become black, or Alexander Hamilton, the truth does not matter to the progressive left. They just keep winning at this stuff. A decade ago the only ‘nation of immigrant’s argument they would use would be in America or Canada, now they are using it in the UK and Europe. “Oh we’ve always been multicultural, what’s the big deal’.

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    • Replies: @Anon
    Why are we so bad at coming up with counternarratives?
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  87. My all-time favorite example of one of those “dark” British islanders:

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    • Replies: @DFH
    I've (initially) mistaken Welsh people for Jews several times because of the dark colouration and curly hair
    , @Anonymous
    In her early TV roles she had brown hair. I don't know why it later turned black.

    An example of an exotic looking Englishman is Rowan Atkinson. I don't think he's Welsh though. His family appears to be fully English.
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  88. The kantheros drinking cup pictured above shape-wise in its fabric to this eye is genuine. However it has been heavily restored and the inscription KALON was added by the restorer. The exoticism of the sub-Saharan physionomy was evident then as it is now. Attic or Corinthian? Don’t underestimate the magic of 19th century Italian forgers. I have a visual memory of the yuge Etruscan warrior, BRONZE, about 9 foot tall, who greeted you as you entered the main door of the Met. It was patinated black to remind one of the black colored Bucchero pottery style of the Etruscans, like black Oaxacan pottery. As phony as a $3 bill. It was disappeared at some point of time like the Skirpals.

    Whoever is being quoted above denying that the ancient Greeks recognized a black genos would have to be wrong if Xenophanes speaks of the black skin and flattened noses of sub-Saharans in the 6th century BC.

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  89. Anonymous[396] • Disclaimer says:
    @snorlax
    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b1/A_Pair_of_Broad_Bottoms.jpg

    To preserve his Victorian sense of propriety, and to avoid any hint of lewdness, Francis Galton, Charles Darwin’s cousin, used a sextant – and calculation – to gauge the vital statistics of various nude Hottentot women whilst sojourning in South Africa.

    All for the strictest, purest ethnographic research, of course.

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  90. Then there’s Simonetta Stefanelli, Michael Corleone’s Sicilian wife in G-1, while he was on the lam. Puzo characterized her in the book as ‘more Greek than Sicilian”. GOOD looking woman.

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    • Replies: @donut
    Maybe in the book but this woman is not Greek . Greek women's features are more coarse and most of them need a shave , their faces that is .
    , @Buffalo Joe
    Jim, Thank you for the photo. She is one really attractive women, with a classical figure if you remember her nude scene.
    , @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Ok, she may look Greek, but she certainly can't pass for black (e.g. sub-saharan African).

    Wonder whatever happened to Simonetta?

    Michael should've taken her back to US and dumped Kate. Way prettier than Kate (Diane Keaton). Does anyone really consider Diane Keaton to be all that? I mean, she's kinda in the mold of Katherine Hepburn. Very caucasian, but yet not very physically appealing.

    Simonetta would've spiced the story up a bit more as Michael's wife brought back to America. She didn't need to be whacked like that. Supposedly G-1 was one of Saddam Hussein's favorite films.

    Historically speaking, Saddam Hussein could pass for white, correct? Or has Louis Farrakhan claimed him for NOI?

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  91. @Anonymous
    Author Whitmarsh is feeling the Zuckerberg money power.

    Donna Z is just a nasty ethno warrior trying to dynamite western civ.

    But Mark Z is more complex. He's a Jew but he strongly identifies with champion Rome instead of victim Hebrews.

    I bet Mark thinks his sister is a lightweight malcontent.

    > champion Rome instead of victim Hebrews.

    The Hebrews had their revenge. Military victory and power does not imply spiritual victory.

    “The act of most spiritual revenge. It was the Jews who, with awe inspiring consistency, dared to invert the aristocratic value-equation (good = noble = powerful = beautiful = happy = beloved of God) and to hang onto this inversion with their teeth, the teeth of the most abysmal hatred (the hatred of impotence), saying, “the wretched alone are the good; the suffering, deprived, sick, ugly alone are pious, alone are blessed by God . . . and you, the powerful and noble, are on the contrary the evil, the cruel, the lustful, the insatiable, the godless to all eternity, and you shall be in all eternity the unblessed, the accursed, and damned!”

    Nietzsche – Genealogy of Morals

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  92. Luke Lea says:

    I passed as a Pakistani in the Holy Temple of Meshed in 1963. Of course it helped that I had been riding on the back of a motor scooter for several months across deserts and hadn’t had a bath in six weeks. The mullahs still threw me out because of my American accent when I yelled to my friend Frank to come look at the cheesy decorations on the walls.

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  93. Baby boomer globalizer Bill Clinton said in 1998 at a commencement speech in Oregon that mass immigration will cause Whites to be made into just another minority. Baby boomer Bill Clinton was honest about his evil plot to attack the European Christian ancestral core of the United States.

    Bill Clinton was working with evil GOP baby boomers such as Newt Gingrich(1943 is close enough for me) and the evil GOP ruling class to use mass immigration as a demographic weapon to attack and destroy the European Christian ancestral core of the United States. John McCain was helping Clinton and Gingrich in their attacks on the historic American nation.

    Bill Clinton’s anti-White 1998 Oregon Speech, portions:

    The driving force behind our increasing diversity is a new, large wave of immigration. It is changing the face of America. And while most of the changes are good, they do present challenges which demand more, both from new immigrants and from our citizens. Citizens share a responsibility to welcome new immigrants, to ensure that they strengthen our Nation, to give them their chance at the brass ring. In turn, new immigrants have a responsibility to learn, to work, to contribute to America. If both citizens and immigrants do their part, we will grow ever stronger in the new global information economy.

    But now we are being tested again by a new wave of immigration larger than any in a century, far more diverse than any in our history. Each year, nearly a million people come legally to America. Today, nearly one in 10 people in America was born in another country; one in 5 schoolchildren are from immigrant families. Today, largely because of immigration, there is no majority race in Hawaii or Houston or New York City. Within 5 years, there will be no majority race in our largest State, California. In a little more than 50 years, there will be no majority race in the United States. No other nation in history has gone through demographic change of this magnitude in so short a time.

    EVIL is the word for baby boomer scum such as Bill and Hillary Clinton.

    EVIL is the word for baby boomers who push nation-wrecking mass immigration, multiculturalism, financialization and transnationalism.

    EVIL baby boomers must be removed from power.

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    • Replies: @GW
    Of course Bill was just parroting conventional wisdom. What’s striking is how moderate it sounds today...no Democrats are calling on immigrants to be responsible or to work hard and learn (implying assimilation) and very few Republicans say this either. The assumption is that immigrants are an unquestioned good for the country and any denial of this is racist and beyond reproach.

    We have far more problems than Bill Clinton. It’d be far more profitable to focus your anger on a judicial system that has frankly taken power away from the people and any recourse we might seek from globalist oligarchs.
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  94. Tulip says:

    Its strange when you can be taken seriously as a scholar and act as if you had never heard of heliocentrism.

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  95. Thea says:

    In the current year we divide the human race into white people and people of color. Blacks and Egyptians are people of color, ergo, Egyptians are black QED.

    I doubt this book will increase interest in the Classics. Maybe white female SJWs will read it or Harvard will assign in Freshman seminar.

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  96. Steve-O says:

    When blacks try to proudly claim the Greeks, Egyptians, and Hebrews as their own, they’re actually admitting that they’re ashamed of actual sub-Saharan cultures. There’s only so much you can say about Timbuktu and the Great Zimbabwe, after all.

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  97. JackOH says:

    Am I going nuts? Am I reading the motives correctly?

    SJW polemicists want to “darken”the ancient Greeks to deny or blunt White nationalist polemicists from claiming kinship with those same Greeks. Is that it? But those same Greeks were, some of them, slave-owners, right? Sheesh!

    I genuinely think one of the more awful aspects of our 2018 world is the endless “borking” of reality by interested parties seeking advantage, and who present their “borking” as scholarship or investigative journalism.

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  98. Unzerker says:
    @songbird
    One of the odder behaviors of the Left more recently, IMO, is the naked attempt by some to split Greeks off from other Europeans. To pretend that it was Northern Euros who had their boot on Greek necks and not the Turks.

    Somehow, I don't think making Achilles black will convince Greeks to join the coalition.

    I’m Dutch and I’ve learned ancient Greek in school and went there a couple of times. Compared to the Western European countries I had been to it was very very different. I never felt that we NW Europeans and the Greeks had a lot in common. We don’t share a history, religion, culture, language or even a writing system.

    It’s an Eastern Mediterranean people with an Eastern Mediterranean culture.

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    • Replies: @syonredux

    . I never felt that we NW Europeans and the Greeks had a lot in common. We don’t share a history, religion, culture, language or even a writing system.
     
    The Roman alphabet is derived from the Greek. Western philosophy starts with the Greeks. Christianity is the fusion of Greek thought and Jewish monotheism. The Renaissance is unimaginable without the Greeks.

    Old Joke: Western Civilization is a Frankenstein's Monster. It has a Greek brain, a Hebrew heart, and a Roman Body.
    , @songbird
    I knew a lot of Greeks and Greek-Americans when growing up in the US. I don't know if they were representative or not, but most seemed pretty European compared to various non-European ethnicities, and I don't mean just in appearance. Some were fairly intelligent. Some were even conservative - this is, in general, a pretty hard group to find among non-Europeans.

    They were all Christian. I attended a wedding in a Greek Orthodox church, and, I don't know how representative it was, but it made me feel the Catholic Church is pozzed. TBH, I consider myself fairly ecumenical, but my impression of most NW European churches today is one of some weird sort of paganism. I had a Greek teacher once, and she would always remind people that the Bible was written in Greek before it was written in Latin.

    I've heard tales of illiterate Gaelic bards in Ireland telling the story of Iliad and the Odyssey up into the early 20th century. I'm not sure how long they knew it before. The US certainly has a certain heritage in Greece, architecturally and politically. Greek is in the same language family - of course the counter would be so is Hindi.

    Don't get me wrong: there seem to be real differences on the national level. Greece is a basket case, economically and politically. Not that one could be proud of NW Europe these days either. I've wondered quite a bit about how Greeks and Turks differ in Germany, as far as welfare dependency, etc. In the US, they seem to do well economically. I see Greece and Greeks as in the Southern cline of Europe. Perhaps, not interchangeable, but qualitatively better and less hostile than many others.
    , @foolisholdman
    I cannot claim any detailed knowledge of classical history, but I think the Romans depopulated Greece and moved other people(s) in. So modern Greeks are not closely related, descended from Ancient Greeks.
    , @Difference maker
    Saw on hbdchick sometime back the suggestion that golden age ancient Greece was preceded by generations of a hajnal like western European nuclear family culture
    , @ThirdWorldSteveReader
    Could you tell us a bit more? You think Greeks are different from the people of which other countries you know? And would you say they cluster together with which populations?
    , @Paco Wové
    I'm American, and while I feel more at home in Paris than Athens, both are categorically more "at home" than Istanbul.
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  99. Back in the 1990s, when Afrocentrist theories about who built the pyramids were popular, African-American Afrocentrists on Usenet would often cite old books written by Oxford professors around 1890 that would refer in passing to ancient Egyptians as “black.” This was confusion — the word “black” meant something different to Englishmen in the 1890s than to Americans in the 1990s: practically everybody south of Dover was said to be more or less “black.” Just look at their hair color!

    Presumably a function of there being next to no Negroes in England during the 1890s.

    For instance, “blacks” in Russia typically refers to Caucasians (peoples from the Caucasian mountains) because of their relative swarthiness. There are some liberal SJW faggots trying to change definitions and make negry into blacks but fortunately they remain marginal losers so far.

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    • Replies: @Jonathan Mason

    Presumably a function of there being next to no Negroes in England during the 1890s.
     
    There were some, but they were few in number. "Walter", the author author of the erotic memoir My Secret Life has some anecdotes about a black woman in London who was his lover during this time period.
    , @Kibernetika
    Anatoly, you're of course correct about how many Russians heuristically categorize folks from "other," especially Caucasian places. It's weird -- as an American -- to hear Russians refer to dark-eyed brunettes referred to as "blacks" in Russia. O, Lermontov!

    And yet, one sees illegal immigrants from sub-Saharan Africa hanging about Metro exits, handing out advertisements, etc.

    Экстра бонус, блин: https://youtu.be/_RxonRDEOpw
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  100. Hubbub says:

    The distinction between ‘black’ African and ‘white’ European peoples, then, is not just unGreek: it’s also unbiological.

    If you keep saying and writing this over and over and over, then it becomes true.

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  101. Pat Boyle says:
    @snorlax
    Of course, if the Greeks were black, it would disprove certain stereotypes.

    https://sociorocketnewsen.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/greek-statue.jpg

    The penis size issue must throw at least a little cold water on the notion that the Ancient Greeks were black. The Greeks apparently considered a small penis to be more attractive and a large penis to be less so. This can be seen on many of the vase decorations that depict heroes and Gods. And I am pretty sure there is no passage in the Iliad where some hoplite exclaims ” Hey, that Achilles dude is hung like a horse”.

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    • Replies: @Svigor

    The penis size issue must throw at least a little cold water on the notion that the Ancient Greeks were black. The Greeks apparently considered a small penis to be more attractive and a large penis to be less so. This can be seen on many of the vase decorations that depict heroes and Gods. And I am pretty sure there is no passage in the Iliad where some hoplite exclaims ” Hey, that Achilles dude is hung like a horse”.
     
    I suspect it was a modesty thing. "Sure we like naked people in our art but there's no need to be coarse or boastful about it."

    The Classical esthetic sensibility regarded genitals as being the most animalistic part of the human body. As a result male genitals were represented in a dismissed scale to de-emphasize them. Female nudes were not as common as male nudes, but in their case the genitals were de-emphasized even further to a sort of featureless, hairless mons. I don’t know how much of that was a combination of trying to be more modest about depicting women, and a culturally homoerotic “ick!” attitude towards female naughty bits.
     
    This fits well with my intuitions.

    Or we could always go with the "ancient Greek women had no genitals" interpretation.
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  102. songbird says:
    @Jack Highlands
    Dienekes has insisted for years that Ancient Greeks looked pretty much like modern Greeks, but based on the 'Recurrent Aryanizaton' pattern at the heart of European ethnicity for the last 6 millennia, plus the known, relatively large, amount of Near East DNA in the modern Greek genome, I never believed him. However, I recently checked what Eurogenes' blog had on this: the number of Mycenaean-era DNA samples was relatively small, but if anything, as a group, they clustered slightly to the Near East side of modern Greeks.

    There is the whole issue of reduced sexual dimorphism in over-civilized populations, which judging from the modern West may have hyper-rapid genetic underpinnings. I've been to modern Laconia and Argos and it's hard to believe more than one in a thousand men there looked like Leonidas or Agamemnon. Then again, if you looked at me it would be hard to believe I had an ancestor or two in the medieval heavy cavalry.

    But overall, Dienekes is probably right: Mycenaean and Classical Age Greeks looked pretty much like modern Greeks.

    That’s basically my thought, but that sometimes they depicted their heroes or gods with rare features. I think it makes sense that gods would be described differently, and also demi-gods.

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  103. Alfa158 says:
    @j
    A more interesting issue is why Greek statues have very small penises? They were also very short. And what about their horses that look like ponies?

    The Classical esthetic sensibility regarded genitals as being the most animalistic part of the human body. As a result male genitals were represented in a dismissed scale to de-emphasize them. Female nudes were not as common as male nudes, but in their case the genitals were de-emphasized even further to a sort of featureless, hairless mons. I don’t know how much of that was a combination of trying to be more modest about depicting women, and a culturally homoerotic “ick!” attitude towards female naughty bits.

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  104. songbird says:

    I was hoping this would be in reference to another David Brooks column.

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  105. Some other important questions of the age:

    Were the Ancient Greeks gay?

    Were the Ancient Greeks trans?

    Were the Ancient Greeks genderqueer?

    Were the Ancient Greeks undocumented?

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    • Replies: @Anonymous

    Some other important questions of the age:

    Were the Ancient Greeks gay?

     

    Sure! Socrates for example explained that Ancient Greek pederasts liked all type of boys. They found the dark ones very attractive , they were manly in their eyes:

    "It was proper for another, Glaucon, to say what you're saying," I said. "But it's not proper for an erotic man to forget that all boys in the bloom of youth in one way or another put their sting in an erotic lover of boys and arouse him; all seem worthy of attention and delight. Or don't you people behave that way with the fair? You praise the boy with a snub nose by calling him 'cute'; the hook-nose of another you say is 'kingly'; and the boy between these two is 'well proportioned'; the dark look 'manly'; and the white are 'children of gods.' And as for the 'honey-colored,' do you suppose their very name is the work of anyone other than a lover who renders sallowness endearing and easily puts up with it if it accompanies the bloom of youth? And, in a word, you people take advantage of every excuse and employ any expression so as to reject none of those who glow with the bloom of a youth."

    Strato was like that, explaining his democratic appetites:

    I love boys Who are pale, and the same time the honey-skinned.
    And Sandy haired; however I also cherish the dark ones.
    I don’t pass over hazel eyes, but I specially Love
    Those with sparkling Black eyes.
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  106. songbird says:
    @Peter Akuleyev
    One of the odder behaviors of the Left more recently, IMO, is the naked attempt by some to split Greeks off from other Europeans. To pretend that it was Northern Euros who had their boot on Greek necks and not the Turks.

    Is Nicholas Taleb on the "Left"?

    Is Nicholas Taleb on the “Left”?

    I regret to say that I am only vaguely familiar with him, having never actually read one of his books. From what I know of him “Black Swan” becoming a popular phrase among college professors – contrasted with him not liking the idea of being called an Arab, I would tenuously label him center left, or more traditional left.

    Am I far off? Did he ever say anything about Greeks?

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  107. @WHAT
    KANGS

    N ŠIIITE

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  108. Pat Boyle says:

    No one seems to have mentioned “Boston Blackie”. He was in the books and films a character who was what used to be called Black Irish. Chester Morris who played Blackie had the look – pale white skin and coal black hair. Sometimes Sean Connery is called Black Irish, although he is of course Scottish not Irish. But Ireland once invaded Scotland just as Scotland has invaded Ireland on occasion. The story I heard as a lad was that the Black Irish were from an invasion from Spain. With a good boat it’s a straight shot north west from the Iberian peninsula. Supposedly the Spaniards carried some Moorish blood with them.

    I don’t know if any of this is true but that’s what my Irish descended relatives said.

    The latest theory of the Irish in light of the whole genome revolution of Reich, Paabo et al
    is that the aboriginal Irish were more or less Sardinians until the invasion by the steppe people from the Ukraine. So we had our own Aryan Invasion.

    I used to supervise a lot of Ukrainian programmers imported under H-1B visas. They didn’t look like the Irish to me.

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    • Replies: @Autochthon
    The Spanish are always after yer lucky charms!
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  109. Yak-15 says:

    Everything, everywhere, always and forever is the product of Africans.

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    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    Yak, There is a good read on that subject, "Not out of Africa" by Mary Lefkowitz. She argues that the Afrocentric depiction of Greeks as Africans is BS.
    , @Yak-15
    This one is really too stupid and easily disproven to really address.
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  110. Pat Boyle says:
    @Anonymous
    My first reaction to the bottom picture was that it was Arlene Martel in makeup as Spock's Vulcan wife :

    http://www.arlenemartel.com/auto/pics/martel41.jpg

    Are these two from Vulcan or Rivendell?

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  111. Wait a minute.

    The word ‘black’ in English is currently used to signify anyone of pure or mixed African descent, and has little to do with skin color, as most ‘black’ people have skin that is a shade of brown, but many have hair that is more or less black on their head or body.

    In Spanish the word ‘negro’ (=black) does not have this same sense, and just signifies someone with very dark skin, whereas ‘moreno’ signifies someone with more-or-less brown skin.

    The Spanish word for black used to be used in North America, but was corrupted into a word that is now generally regarded as rude and insulting, except when used poetically by rappers.

    The ancient Greeks were probably similar to the people who live in the area today. No doubt there will have been some genetic outliers within that population with nordic or African traits, as the Greeks were a seafaring people, and seafaring people tend to like to sample the local fare at ports of call.

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    • Replies: @Yngvar
    There is a apocryphal story that during the mess in the Balkans in the 90's one commentator on CNN called a protagonic country for "Monte-African-American".
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  112. Benjaminl says:
    @Lot
    groups.google.com

    https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/alt.fan.karl-malden.nose

    A fine example, for those of us who recall the Meow Wars.

    http://xahlee.info/Netiquette_dir/_/meow_wars.html

    https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/78k4g4/twenty-years-ago-trolling-was-repeatedly-posting-meow-in-usenet-groups

    Like Canter and Siegel, what seemed a weird anomaly in the 1990s turned out to be merely the New Normal.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laurence_Canter_and_Martha_Siegel

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  113. “Anglo-Irish scholar-explorer Sir Richard Burton was dark enough in coloration to pass as an Afghan when he surreptitiously made the hajj to Mecca in 1853.”

    BTW, Burton’s account of his Hajj is a treasure trove of contra-PC historical gems.

    It’s out of copyright and available on Gutenberg and in audio on LibriVox.

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  114. Taleb getting in on this one…

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    • Replies: @syonredux

    I am standing next to the Bosphorus. The other side is Asia. So if the BBC wanted to do a Mary Beard style historical film, shd they cat pple from Stockholm for this side & pple from Tokyo on the other?
     
    https://twitter.com/nntaleb/status/994202761884454912
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  115. Benjaminl says:

    Off-topic:

    Today Alone in It’s Steve Sailer’s World and We Just Live In It

    * Liberal Californians Flock to 89.7% White Boise For the Good Schools

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/13/us/boise-idaho-primary-election-growth.html

    * The Most Powerful Man in Television: KKKrazy Glue and the Coalition of the Fringes

    https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/05/14/how-ryan-murphy-became-the-most-powerful-man-in-tv

    The show, he bragged, had a hundred and eight trans cast or crew members, and thirty-one L.G.B.T.Q. characters. It employed trans directors, too, including Silas Howard, from “Transparent.” Murphy was giving his profits to pro-trans causes… But his biggest strength is his strangeness, his allergy to the dully inspiring and his native attraction to the angriest characters—a quality he traces to “the Velvet Rage,” referring to the title of a 2005 book about the fury gay men feel in a straight world. …It was a messy situation, likely inflected by Murphy’s concerns about the optics of being associated with another white creator. …“The whole point is to bring the next group of people,” he said. “Kick all the old white fucks out and bring in the new people.”

    * You don’t need to get all the Jewish guys in New York on your side. But you do need to get some of them on your side.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/14/us/politics/david-brody-cbn-news-evangelical.html

    Mr. Brody might seem an unlikely messenger for evangelicalism. He grew up in a Reform Jewish family on New York’s Upper West Side and attended Temple Emanu-El on 65th Street and 5th Avenue.

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  116. Whiskey says: • Website

    Making Ancient Greece Black is an article of religious faith. Not Judaism but pan human utopianism. Jews being high iq are very susceptible to this. See early Gnostic and the Cathars later. Or the Heavens Gate loonies and Jonestown.

    Western culture since 1955 might as well be intellectual s demanding we drink the kool aide.

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    • Replies: @Svigor
    Nah. Real self-abnegating Whites know it starts at home, and clean up their own back yards first.

    Jews want to clean up everyone else's, and if you tell them to clear up theirs they go ape, call you a wicked person.

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  117. @Anatoly Karlin

    Back in the 1990s, when Afrocentrist theories about who built the pyramids were popular, African-American Afrocentrists on Usenet would often cite old books written by Oxford professors around 1890 that would refer in passing to ancient Egyptians as “black.” This was confusion — the word “black” meant something different to Englishmen in the 1890s than to Americans in the 1990s: practically everybody south of Dover was said to be more or less “black.” Just look at their hair color!
     
    Presumably a function of there being next to no Negroes in England during the 1890s.

    For instance, "blacks" in Russia typically refers to Caucasians (peoples from the Caucasian mountains) because of their relative swarthiness. There are some liberal SJW faggots trying to change definitions and make negry into blacks but fortunately they remain marginal losers so far.

    Presumably a function of there being next to no Negroes in England during the 1890s.

    There were some, but they were few in number. “Walter”, the author author of the erotic memoir My Secret Life has some anecdotes about a black woman in London who was his lover during this time period.

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    • Replies: @syonredux

    There were some, but they were few in number.
     
    Very few. 20,000 would be a high estimate, and most of them were concentrated in a handful of cities (London, Liverpool, etc).

    I once chatted with a colleague (emeritus) who was born in Birmingham in 1930. Talking about the racial transformation of the UK that he's witnessed in his lifetime, he noted that he couldn't recall even seeing a Black person until he was in his mid-20s and living in London.
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  118. The ancient Greek represenation of the genitalia were symbolic and the Golden Mean with regard to behavior. Civilized men ie. Greeks, had modest features to reflect their self control over their desire, think Apollo, god of knowledge, whereas the Satyrs, and the other hedonistic Dionysian barbarians had the “goods” so to speak because of their lack of self control.

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    • Replies: @j
    So you are saying that Greek sculptures are symbolic and do not represent actual people? But they got right every other organ of the human body, like fingers, hands, eyes, buttocks, girls are very lifelike, etc. They had a psychological complex only with male genitals and had inhibitions and could take a good look at them? Strange.
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  119. …. the oddity of the modern, western obsession with classification by pigmentation. …

    The people in the modern world with by far the greatest obsession with pigmentation are on the political Left. They’re incapable of shutting up on the matter.

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  120. @Diversity is Wrong

    (as if using anglophone northern European actors were any less anachronistic).
     
    Anachronistic is not really the right word there, but we can kind of get the point.

    And that point is, if we're not going to be 100% accurate in our depiction of an ancient character, who was likely a Southern European, would it be more accurate to depict that character as a Northern European or an African? And the answer is obviously Northern European.

    For starters they are the same race, and because they are the same race the genetic distance between a NE and a SE is more than a hundred times smaller than the genetic distance between a SE and an African. Seems simple right?

    Do I just think more logically, clearly, better, than this author; or this author trying to pull wool over the eyes?


    Here's a good video I saw on this sort of psychological warfare.


    Writing Europeans Out of Their Own History
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSBx0pqTSL0


    Another very good video on "the question" of white culture

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6O3mZ00xxoI

    Greeks simply didn’t think of the world as starkly divided along racial lines into black and white:
     
    In these matters do people not understand black and white to simply be alternative terms for say, African and European?

    Are they deliberately muddying the waters to prevent good faith conversation?

    they differentiated themselves from the darker peoples of Africa and India, sometimes in aggressively dismissive terms that we would now call racist;
     
    Hear that racists? The Greeks were racist! But they're not your racists! They didn't even have a race! To say so is racist. Stop being racist, racists!

    Greeks did not, by and large, think of themselves as ‘white’.
     
    As you just said, they thought of themselves as a distinct group from their place in the world compared to other distinct groups from their places in the world.

    That they didn't use the same terminology as us moderns is to be expected.

    Their place in the world is a place we moderns call white, if their oracles had time machines from which they could travel into the future and bring back our vocabulary then they could call themselves white, but drats, they didn't, so the author can make this totally pointless point.

    Anachronistic is not really the right word there, but we can kind of get the point.

    That rubbed me the wrong way too but Wiktionary https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/anachronism doesn’t rule out a “bidirectional” usage. Moreover, what with the author being a classicist, you know he’d make damn sure he didn’t misuse a word like that. I can’t think of a better word. Proleptic maybe? Nah, not really.

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  121. J. Dart says:
    @Clifford Brown
    What is Donna Zuckerberg's position on the Black Hebrew Israelites? Did the Black population skip Israel in their conquest of Ancient Greece, Rome and Albion?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5r9ijdvJ9KU

    Somewhat on topic: very strange anecdote from the State Department guy who handled all the problems related to the Black Hebrew Israelites and the Israeli attempts to deport them and stop more of them from coming

    https://adst.org/2017/02/american-israeli-tensions-black-hebrew-community/

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  122. Paul Tsongas was a better Greek American candidate for President in the 1992 election than Dukakis was in the 1988 election. I am disappointed that Tsongas ultimately endorsed Clinton. Tsongas ran as a Democrat but was ideologically more like Ronald Reagan.

    With today’s Democratic party centered on race and immigration, it’s crazy to realize how unimaginable it would be someone like Tsongas to associate with the Democratic party of today.

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  123. Anonymous[135] • Disclaimer says:

    If the Greeks had seen a negro they would have put him in a cage as a strange animal.

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  124. TheJester says:

    Remembering the article, “What Race were the Greeks and Romans?” by John Harrison Sims (UNZ Review on October 1, 2010) throws some light on this issue.

    http://www.unz.com/article/what-race-were-the-greeks-and-romans/?highlight=Greece

    According to the article, the historical narrative of Classical Greece and early Rome support the claim that the original Greeks and Romans of lore were white people with the complexions and hair colors of people that we would now associate with white people in Northern Europe.

    In this narrative, the current swarthy complexions of Mediterranean peoples on the north side of the Mediterranean Sea were the result of later immigration … immigration that corrupted the original Classical Greek and Imperial Roman cultures in the same way that the massive immigration of swarthy people is corrupting the current cultures of Europe and North America.

    The unstated rationale behind the above is that culture has genetic components … culture as the aggregate expression of polygenetic physical traits and behavioral dispositions within populations.

    Yes, it is a deterministic view of human society and its outcomes. It spars with the a priori declaration on the part of relativists that race, IQ, behaviors, gender, and disparate social outcomes are artificial social constructs; that is, if there are local variations, the local variations are the result of racism, sexism, and oppression by the White Male Patriarchy imposed on humanity (and women) by the original Greco-Roman culture and those who inherited their legacy.

    The claims of the relativists (that race, IQ, behaviors, gender, and disparate social outcomes have no genetic components) seems to fly in the face of their own protestations … that is, that Greco-Roman culture and those who inherited their legacy continue to exist as the dominant culture imposing their superior way of life on those less genetically favored.

    Conclusion: If those who inherited the Greco-Roman traditions and their detractors, at the end of the day, support the same position, it lends credence to claims of superiority on the part of Greco-Roman culture … or there would be no need for the continual, fruitless protests to the contrary.

    No, the ancient Greeks were not black … although many may understandably feel better about themselves to claim that is the case.

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  125. Last year in an article published in Forbes, the Classics scholar Sarah Bond at the University of Iowa caused a storm by pointing out that many of the Greek statues that seem white to us now were in antiquity painted in colour.

    Seem white? Is marble not white? Or does he mean we only thought ancient Greeks were Caucasian because they were cast in white marble? Poor man, his parents named him Timothy and it’s been all downhill from there.

    The use of the ‘many’ is typically unhelpful.

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    • Replies: @syonredux

    Last year in an article published in Forbes, the Classics scholar Sarah Bond at the University of Iowa caused a storm by pointing out that many of the Greek statues that seem white to us now were in antiquity painted in colour.

     


    Seem white? Is marble not white? Or does he mean we only thought ancient Greeks were Caucasian because they were cast in white marble?
     
    http://www.tecnoetc.com.br/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/grecia4.jpg


    https://i.pinimg.com/564x/25/fa/c5/25fac5ff467c6177c22f6b3b59e6579b.jpg


    Yeah, they keep on talking about how restoring the color makes them look less White......But they still look pretty White to me....All that restoring the color does is make ancient Greek and Roman statuary look really tacky...
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  126. @syonredux

    Last year in an article published in Forbes, the Classics scholar Sarah Bond at the University of Iowa caused a storm by pointing out that many of the Greek statues that seem white to us now were in antiquity painted in colour.
     
    Dunno. Even with the color restored, they still look pretty White.....

    http://eu.greekreporter.com/files/statues-apollo.jpg

    This year, it was the turn of BBC’s new television series Troy: Fall of a City (2018-) to attract ire, which cast black actors in the roles of Achilles, Patroclus, Zeus, Aeneas and others (as if using anglophone northern European actors were any less anachronistic).
     
    Might want to read Reich's new book. Northern Europeans and Southern Europeans are more closely related to each other than they the are to Sub-Saharan Africans......

    My aim in this essay, rather, is to consider how the Greeks themselves viewed differences in skin colour. The differences are instructive – and, indeed, clearly point up the oddity of the modern, western obsession with classification by pigmentation.

     

    Give a Sub-Saharan African a Baltic complexion, he's still not gonna look like a White guy. Color terms are just shorthand for a host of racial signifiers.

    This word is often translated as ‘blond’, a translation that gives a powerful steer to the modern imagination. But translation can be deceptive. As Maria Michel Sassi’s essay for Aeon makes clear, the Greek colour vocabulary simply doesn’t map directly onto that of modern English. Xanthos could be used for things that we would call ‘brown’, ‘ruddy’, ‘yellow’ or ‘golden’.
     
    On the other hand, we're pretty safe in assuming that his hair was non-Black/dark brown.


    Now, translating kuaneos (the root of the English ‘cyan’) as ‘blue’, as I have done here, is at first sight a bit silly: most translators take the word to mean ‘dark’. But given the usual colour of hyacinths, maybe – just maybe – he did have blue hair after all? Who knows; but here, certainly, is another example of just how alien the Homeric colour scheme is.

     

    Not that alien. After all, we have the term "blue-black" for especially dark hair, which evinces no lighter shades, not even the brightest sunlight.....

    And what of ‘black-skinned’? Was Odysseus in fact black? Or was he (as Emily Wilson’s acclaimed new translation renders it) ‘tanned’? Once again, we can see how different translations prompt modern readers to envisage these characters in completely different ways. But to understand the Homeric text, we need to shed these modern associations. Odysseus’ blackness, like Achilles’ xanthos hair, isn’t intended to play to modern racial categories;

     

    Just like pre-20th century Anglo writers:


    Jonathan Swift on the Duke of Somerset:

    Duke of Somerset:

    Is of a middle stature, well shaped, a very black complexion, a lover of music and poetry; of good judgment [not a grain;hardly common sense];but by reason of a great hesitation in his speech wants expression. He is about forty-two years old.
     

    In the fourteenth year of my age, by a fellow scholar of swarth, black complexion, I had like to have my right eye beaten out as we were at play

    William Lilly’s history of his life and times from the year 1602 to 1681, page 20
     
    A description of the inhabitants of the Western Isles of Scotland:

    The Inhabitants are generally well proportioned, and of a black Complexion; they speak only the Irish Tongue and use the Habit, Diet, and etc that is used in the Western Isles
     
    A description of Thomas, Earl of Ormonde:

    He was a very comely and graceful man, and of a black complexion, which gained him among the Irish the surname of Duffe

    A History of the Life of James Duke of Ormonde, Volume 1, page Lxiv
     

    Greeks certainly noticed different shades of pigmentation (of course), and they differentiated themselves from the darker peoples of Africa and India, sometimes in aggressively dismissive terms that we would now call racist;
     
    Indeed:

    http://img.4plebs.org/boards/pol/image/1474/85/1474858042845.jpg

    Greeks and Romans, well acquainted with their contemporaries, differentiated between the various gradations of color in Mediterranean populations and made it clear that only some of the black- or dark-skinned peoples, those coming from the south of Egypt and the southern fringes of northwest Africa, were Ethiopians, i.e. Negroes. Ethiopians, known as the blackest peoples on earth, became the yardstick by which classical authors measured the color of others. In first century AD, Manilius described Ethiopians as the blackest; Indians, less sunburnt; Egyptians, mildly dark; with Moors the lightest in this color scheme. In other words, to all these peoples–Ethiopians, Indians, Egyptians, and Moors–who were darker than the Greeks and Romans, classical authors applied color-words but it should be emphasized that in general the ancients described only one of these–Ethiopians–as unmistakably Negroid.
     
    http://library.howard.edu/content.php?pid=554250

    In the upper (ie, southern) part of the Nile valley, in modern Sudan, lay another magnificent civilisation known variously as Kush, the Meroitic kingdom and Nubia.
     
    Magnificent compared to what? Its culture was a mere echo of Egypt's....

    The Greeks came to call this place ‘Ethiopia’, which can mean ‘land of the burnt-faced people’.
     
    Sounds like a decent descriptive for Sub-Saharan Africans....

    But there are also vases that show mythical combatants with (exaggerated) African features, who might or might not be Memnon and his warriors.

     

    Wait, so racial differences are not limited to skin color?Who knew?

    The big question, of course, is whether we can say anything about what Greeks themselves looked like. Here we have to tread especially carefully, because there are a lot of traps. People often and very easily refer to ancient Greeks as ‘European’, as if the meaning of that term were self-evident. But ‘Europe’ is a historical construct, not a fact of nature.

     

    Again, read Reich's book. Europeans are pretty closely related to each other....

    To quote the paper, Minoan Greeks took ‘at least three-quarters of their ancestry from the first Neolithic farmers of western Anatolia and the Aegean, and most of the remainder from ancient populations related to those of the Caucasus and Iran’. DNA from the Mycenaean period (taken as 1700-1200 BCE) saw new genetic input from the Eurasian Steppe or Armenia.
     
    Well, with that mix, I would say that it's a safe bet that they didn't look like Sub-Saharan Africans....

    The upshot is that we can be pretty confident that ancient Greeks were similar in genotype and phenotype to modern Greeks.
     
    http://metaxas-project.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/nelly-nellys-greek-photographer-metaxas-fascism-01.png

    https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-
    FGGgpaXOTtI/WLaNSxuqvAI/AAAAAAACD4E/U0ZW_0uzt98PWpypZkcQKayUKLQ0Eff8gCLcB/s1600/nellys-greek.JPG





    https://classicgrandtour.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/cf86cf89cf84cebfceb3cf81ceaccf86cebfcf82-nelly-cf80ceb1cf81ceb1cebbcebbceb7cebbceb9cf83cebccebfceaf.jpg


    https://78.media.tumblr.com/a6e63490e7e820afb50f424c50a0a79f/tumblr_ovr6yukWkB1sjmae6o1_500.jpg

    One thing. Ethiopians are indeed as dark as Bantus but are Caucasians. The Bantu minority that inhabit parts of Northeast Africa were imported as slaves 1700 ish.

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  127. @syonredux

    I think blonde back then probably meant a lighter brown shade- something that would look golden in the sunlight but not the modern more yellow conception of blonde. Frescoes of Alexander the Great, who was famously described as blond, show a guy with bronze/light brown hair.
     
    https://powerimagepropaganda.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/alex-mosaic-271.jpg

    Not much has changed since then regarding the meaning of blonde, at least in Greece. Here’s Giannis Ioannidis, famous Greek basketball coach in the 80s and 90s and former Greek MP and Minister, aptly nicknamed “The Blond“:

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  128. Off Topic:

    I know wikipedia is edited for the most part by leftists, but I was unaware it was doing the “they/them/their” pronoun thing for individuals.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chanda_Prescod-Weinstein

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  129. Barnard says:
    @Vox Australis
    (? OT) Recently I watched on television a series about the Norman Conquest, and was surprised to see that one of William's advisers was a dark skinned male with African facial features. I would doubt that there were any black Africans in Normandy in the eleventh century, and I suspect that it was a sly attempt to rewrite history so that it conforms to current Leftist dogma. I am sure that if you asked the producer about the matter, he (or she) would have the chutzpah to respond "Well, how do you know that William didn't have a black African adviser?"

    I saw that program on the Smithsonian Channel as well. I think it was produced by the BBC. They have made a big push for casting minorities in historical programs in the last couple of years.

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  130. “But the Afrocentrists didn’t know that. On the other hand, it seemed pretty enterprising of Afrocentrists to read old books, even if they were misinterpreting them.”

    Hilarious. Also, the Zuckerberg bloodline must be stopped before it does even more damage.

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  131. anonymous[277] • Disclaimer says:

    “In contrast, after 1492, ocean-spanning European voyagers quickly found that there were major sharp divides among the world’s peoples, caused by oceans, deserts, and massive mountain ranges.”

    Bonobo chimpanzees live south of the Congo River. Not only are they physically different from the chimps who live north of the Congo but their behavior is much more benign. Since chimpanzees (and gorillas) cannot swim, which precluded any kind of intermingling, it is thought that the Bonobos evolved along a different curve from their cousins on the north shore. Hence, the role of geography in evolution.

    If geography can have an effect upon the evolution of chimpanzees, why not to homo sap (who shares over 97% of their genes)?

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  132. DFH says:
    @Hapalong Cassidy
    My all-time favorite example of one of those “dark” British islanders:

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HMDQn7C3x80

    I’ve (initially) mistaken Welsh people for Jews several times because of the dark colouration and curly hair

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  133. Aardvark says:

    So lets do the math here:
    The suggestion is that ancient Greeks were actually black.
    Race is a social construct, not one rooted in DNA.
    So perhaps somewhere around 130 BC – ancient Greeks woke up and decided “let’s be white”?
    By the way – if this is the case that Greeks were black, what about that idiot professor who suggested that white people had “math” privilege because math symbols had Greek names?
    Doesn’t this suggest that blacks actually have “math” privilege?
    I think I have worn out my eraser trying to correct my score card.

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  134. syonredux says:
    @Anonymous
    My first reaction to the bottom picture was that it was Arlene Martel in makeup as Spock's Vulcan wife :

    http://www.arlenemartel.com/auto/pics/martel41.jpg
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    • Replies: @syonredux
    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b8/f8/d4/b8f8d4d033b7690094c99fca3a7c9b28.jpg
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  135. @Realist

    Were the Ancient Greeks Black?
     
    Of course not....let's move on.
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    • Replies: @Realist
    Of course not=No

    Let's move on.
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  136. syonredux says:
    @AndrewR
    I stopped watching Peaky Blinders immediately after an angry character said "get your fucking hands off me!" I'm 99.9999% sure that an enraged Englishman in that era would have said "bloody," which, back then, was arguably more taboo than "fucking" is now, in our degenerate era. Wiktionary doesn't have much on "fucking" as an intensifier, but I imagine it is an Americanism only quite recently adopted into the British vocabulary. In any event, "bloody" really was a taboo word then.

    Presumably the writers/producers/director all thought that saying "bloody" would sound too tame to their linguistically/historically ignorant audience to whom "bloody" sounds quaint and utterly unoffensive. Or even worse, perhaps the people involved in the show are that ignorant themselves. But "fucking" certainly struck me as a bizarre anachronism. That sort of terrible anachronistic writing invariably ruins productions for me.

    From the wikipedia article on "bloody":

    After about 1750 the word assumed more profane connotations. Johnson (1755) already calls it "very vulgar", and the original Oxford English Dictionary article of 1888 comments the word is "now constantly in the mouths of the lowest classes, but by respectable people considered 'a horrid word', on par with obscene or profane language."

    On the opening night of George Bernard Shaw's comedy Pygmalion in 1914, Mrs Patrick Campbell, in the role of Eliza Doolittle, created a sensation with the line "Walk! Not bloody likely!" and this led to a fad for using "Pygmalion" itself as a pseudo-oath, as in "Not Pygmalion likely",[5][6] and bloody was referred to as "the Shavian adjective" in polite society.

    The character Geoffrey Fisher in Keith Waterhouse's play Billy Liar (1959) is notable for his continual use of the word 'bloody'. Waterhouse's stage directions make it clear that if this is considered offensive the word should be omitted entirely and not bowdlerised to ruddy or some other word.

    The use of 'bloody' in adult UK broadcasting aroused controversy in the 1960s and 1970s, but it has since become mild expletive and is used more freely
     

    .

    I stopped watching Peaky Blinders immediately after an angry character said “get your fucking hands off me!” I’m 99.9999% sure that an enraged Englishman in that era would have said “bloody,” which, back then, was arguably more taboo than “fucking” is now, in our degenerate era. Wiktionary doesn’t have much on “fucking” as an intensifier, but I imagine it is an Americanism only quite recently adopted into the British vocabulary.

    Anachronistic obscenities are really annoying. One of the reasons why I could never get into Deadwood was because they had 1870s American cowboys talking like contemporary Black thugs.

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    • Agree: Kylie
    • Replies: @Corn
    Supposedly some of the writers for Deadwood took the time to research 1870-80s vernacular and came to believe that the curses and profanities of the time would sound too ridiculous to modern ears, so they substituted modern swears.

    One writer said something to the effect, “if we kept the profanity true to the times the actors would sound like live action Yosemite Sams”.
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  137. syonredux says:
    @syonredux
    https://fanart.tv/fanart/music/ded5d5ce-7814-4aef-b01a-8549c3e803c1/albumcover/odes-51d4cd7877c92.jpg


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irene_Papas

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  138. syonredux says:
    @Henry's Cat

    Last year in an article published in Forbes, the Classics scholar Sarah Bond at the University of Iowa caused a storm by pointing out that many of the Greek statues that seem white to us now were in antiquity painted in colour.
     
    Seem white? Is marble not white? Or does he mean we only thought ancient Greeks were Caucasian because they were cast in white marble? Poor man, his parents named him Timothy and it's been all downhill from there.

    The use of the 'many' is typically unhelpful.

    Last year in an article published in Forbes, the Classics scholar Sarah Bond at the University of Iowa caused a storm by pointing out that many of the Greek statues that seem white to us now were in antiquity painted in colour.

    Seem white? Is marble not white? Or does he mean we only thought ancient Greeks were Caucasian because they were cast in white marble?

    Yeah, they keep on talking about how restoring the color makes them look less White……But they still look pretty White to me….All that restoring the color does is make ancient Greek and Roman statuary look really tacky…

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    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    Syon, Without the color they are what I would call classical sculptures. With the color they look like something you would have found in the décor section of an Ancient Greek Walmart
    , @inertial
    I can't prove it but I doubt the statues looked like this. I am sure Sarah Bond and other scientists did a fine job but they only had a few tiny chips of paint to work with. The Greeks were not only exquisite sculptors but painters, too. They must have used, you know, painting techniques. So e.g. the statues' faces most likely looked like real faces and not dumb masks.

    Like this:

    https://mathildasdiary.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/fayum.jpg

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  139. Lagertha says:
    @Lurker
    Presumably there are two priorities here.

    One is to imply that only modern whites are guilty of the crime of noticing, unlike enlightened people of the past who were apparently colour blind.

    The other is to help undermine white history and appropriate it for The Other. A nihilistic and demoralising exercise.

    This frenzy by academics/journalists/socialists/studio heads, to constantly, disenfranchise Europeans and people of European descent, of their own history & culture is just abhorrent. Average people with no university education are also noticing the odious arguments these creepy, supposedly educated professors, disingenuous journalists, constantly spout. Denigrating all people of European and particularly, Christian background will backfire. I see signs of it already.

    Everyday, when I read these bs arguments that Scandinavian and European people were just immigrants to their countries with no right to claim the land they have lived on for millennia as their country, I want to lash out so badly. Therefore, I insist that we get rid of all, and every form of AA in Europe/the US/Canada/Australia/NZ. If no one is black/brown/white/red/yellow (how did these latter 2 get quashed so easily by the cheerleaders of diversity?), then we need no AA for university admits/jobs in the corporate arena. If race is nothing then AA is not justified to exist.

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  140. syonredux says:
    @Jonathan Mason

    Presumably a function of there being next to no Negroes in England during the 1890s.
     
    There were some, but they were few in number. "Walter", the author author of the erotic memoir My Secret Life has some anecdotes about a black woman in London who was his lover during this time period.

    There were some, but they were few in number.

    Very few. 20,000 would be a high estimate, and most of them were concentrated in a handful of cities (London, Liverpool, etc).

    I once chatted with a colleague (emeritus) who was born in Birmingham in 1930. Talking about the racial transformation of the UK that he’s witnessed in his lifetime, he noted that he couldn’t recall even seeing a Black person until he was in his mid-20s and living in London.

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    • Replies: @Jonathan Mason
    Talking about the racial transformation of the UK that he’s witnessed in his lifetime, he noted that he couldn’t recall even seeing a Black person until he was in his mid-20s and living in London.

    Living in Yorkshire, the first time I saw a live black person close-up was in the 60's in a field near Leeds. His name was Garfield and he was left-handed.
    , @BB753
    According to the 2011 UK census, Birmingham was over 42% non-white. Makes you think. I believe it's the second "blackest" major city in the UK, after London.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birmingham
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  141. Anon[362] • Disclaimer says:

    https://www.wired.com/story/mini-brains-just-got-creepiertheyre-growing-their-own-veins/

    MINI BRAINS JUST GOT CREEPIER—THEY’RE GROWING THEIR OWN VEINS
    Last week, it was Waldau’s group at UC Davis that published the first results of vascularized human neural organoids. Using brain membrane cells taken from one of his patients during a routine surgery, the team coaxed them first into stem cells, then some of them into the endothelial cells that line blood vessels’ insides. The stem cells they grew into brain balls, which they incubated in a gel matrix coated with those endothelial cells. After incubating for three weeks, they took a single organoid and transplanted it into a tiny cavity carefully carved into a mouse’s brain. Two weeks later the organoid was alive, well—and, critically, had grown capillaries that penetrated all the way to its inner layers.

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    • Replies: @Bies Podkrakowski
    Humanocentric colonization of rodent brains!

    Soon mice will demand reparations.
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  142. syonredux says:
    @Chrisnonymous
    Taleb getting in on this one...

    https://twitter.com/nntaleb/status/995592061016530944

    I am standing next to the Bosphorus. The other side is Asia. So if the BBC wanted to do a Mary Beard style historical film, shd they cat pple from Stockholm for this side & pple from Tokyo on the other?

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    • Replies: @DFH
    Lol @ the self-hating Arab's attempt to hijack European culture because of his people's lack of their own accomplishments
    , @Charles Pewitt
    The wogs start at Calais, Mr Nassim N. Taleb!

    I hereby challenge Mr. Nassim N. Taleb to a weight lifting contest. I shall require 5 years to prepare, and then the iron shall tell the tale.
    , @songbird

    “Europe” is a miscategory. Western Eurasia-Med is the proper ecology.

     

    So, if I am reading this right - Taleb doesn't want to be left out.
    , @Anonymous
    Poor insecure Taleb's desperately wants to be counted as European. "Phoenician" is just not good enough for him.
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  143. My Greek grandfather who got ethnically cleansed from Asia Minor in the 1920’s said when he was a kid, the other kids teased him by calling him Blondie. I, however, have dark brown hair and brown eyes, like my Greek grandmother who grew up in Egypt

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    • Replies: @Lurker
    Ah yes the ethnic cleansing of whites from Turkey by brown Muslims (peace be upon them). Something we don't hear much about in the current year. For some mysterious reason.
    , @TelfoedJohn
    The Pontic Greeks I've seen in Thessaloniki are a shade darker than the average Greek. Also more stocky, with bigger noses. I think there is a bit of Turk, Russian & Middle Eastern in them. As well as a fair bit of Georgian/Armenian Caucasian. The Georgian/Armenian part is interesting because the Indo-European expansion missed out on that area: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_migrations#/media/File:IE_expansion.png

    Various opinions here: https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?42665-Pontic-Greeks(Hellenes-of-Northern-Anatolia)

    One person says, "the only real/strong stereotype is about their IQ." Not sure what they mean by that. Maybe they mean they are like simple country people.
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  144. Unzerker says:
    @Peter Akuleyev
    That’s because they didn’t get out much from the Mediterranean and Black Sea, where everybody was fairly similar racially because of the ease of transport, except for a small number of blackish people in Egypt from far up the Nile and perhaps a rare visitor from India.

    The Romans saw plenty of Sub-saharans. The Romans were just as likely to consider blond Germans "racially inferior" as black Africans. The Mediterranean peoples were the pinnacle of existence, and the further out you went, the more barbaric and contemptible the people were, with Britons probably at the bottom, certainly below the Nubians.

    Steve makes a good point though - neither the Greeks or Romans had much of a sense of the big picture. A lot of racial differences only make sense in the aggregate. I am sure if you saw a black Nubian prince bedecked in gold jewelry and exotic furs parading through Rome as a boy, and then got shipped as a legionary over to damp Britain were you saw dirty illiterate Celts living in huts covered with moss and daubing themselves with paint and tending pigs, you wouldn't suspect "white" people were anything special. Poverty makes everyone look bad, which is why the English considered the Irish subhuman right up to the 20th century.

    A lot of the traits that have benefited white or East Asian people tremendously over the past thousand years - superior abstract thinking, organizational skills, longer time preferences, obedience, etc. - were also not particularly valued by Roman or Greek elites. Nice qualities to have in a slave perhaps, but not the kind of person a Roman leader aspired to be.

    I am sure if you saw a black Nubian prince bedecked in gold jewelry and exotic furs parading through Rome as a boy

    Which Nubian prince would that be?…Oh, you are just making it up.

    The fact that the Romans chose to occupy Britain and not Sudan speaks volumes.

    The Romans saw plenty of Sub-saharans.

    I really wonder how many sub-Saharan Africans there were in the Roman empire:

    They didn’t sail along the western coast of Africa until the Spanish and Portuguese started doing in around the 14th century AD.
    They hadn’t introduced camels in Africa until 3rd century AD to help them cross the thousands of km of desert.
    The Suez canal didn’t exist and even if they used a boat to cross the red sea, they still had to traverse 200km of desert
    Even following the Nile down-flow doesn’t seem to have been that easy.

    My guess is that they would have been a very rare sight outside of Egypt.

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    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Recent high tech grave robbing in an Egyptian cemetery in Roman times comes up with about 8% sub-Saharan DNA by ancestry, less than today in Egypt. Probably in Greek times would have been even less. But still, there would likely have been a few mixed race people in Egypt from up the river, kind of like in the opera "Aida."
    , @Corn
    According to Wikipedia the Romans sent three expeditions to sub-Saharan Africa, one got as far as the shores of Lake Chad.
    Your average Roman Empire resident probably never saw a black person, and the Romans contact with blacks was probably limited to say the least. But it would seem to me by the Empire era at least Roman soldiers, scholars, traders were aware of the existence of blacks.
    , @Buffalo Joe
    Unze, The Romans used hippos, elephants and crocodiles in their circuses at the Colosseum. So, wouldn't they have brought back black slaves too?
    , @DFH
    Herodotus said that the Ethiopians were very tall (makes sense if he heard about Nilotics) but used stone weapons rather than metal
    , @Logan
    FWIW a "Suez Canal" existed in ancient Egypt at various periods over perhaps as much as 2000 years. It went in and out of use based primarily on political/ social factors, but was in use as late as the early Muslim period.

    factors.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canal_of_the_Pharaohs
    , @Peter Akuleyev
    The fact that the Romans chose to occupy Britain and not Sudan speaks volumes

    Kush/Nubia was, at least for a while, a tribute state of the Roman Empire, administered through Egypt. Christianity spread to Ethiopia because of the close contact with the Roman Empire.

    The Romans also chose not to occupy Europe north of the Danube and East of the Rhine. It speaks more to geography, climate and resources than to any racial characteristics the Romans perceived among the local populations.
    , @J.Ross
    Egypt has a long history but "Sudan" was historically generally its back yard, split off by imperial shenanigans, and recently split further (with the result that the latest subtraction is quitely logically splitting itself). This is a big deal to a diminishing number of Egyptian nationalists who see it as it could have been.
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  145. @Corn
    “The Greeks had no idea of the existence of Amerindians, Australians, or Polynesians, and very little awareness of East Asians.”

    Right. In those more primitive times the Greeks may habe known of blacks via Egypt maybe. Just maybe.

    Alexander hadn’t gone to India yet.

    Would the ancient Greeks have known of China? I seem to recall the Roman Empire traded with China through intermediaries central Asia, but I’m hazy on if any Roman went to China or vice versa.

    IIRC Romans had a vague awareness of China(they called them Seres) and imported significant quantities of silk from them. Pliny complains about the trade deficit and that the Seres, known as “masters of absentee trader”(for selling goods without showing up and for being “fond of selling but not of buying”), sold them luxuries such as silk that promoted the licentiousness of women. There was some wild theories that the Seres were the descendants of Sassanids, that the Seres each lived 300 years old, and so on. On the positive side, they wrote of the Seres as being civilized and nonviolent(“immune to the provocations of Mars.”)

    Pretty much everything the Romans wrote about the Seres included speculation on silk.

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  146. j says: • Website
    @Need a better handle
    The ancient Greek represenation of the genitalia were symbolic and the Golden Mean with regard to behavior. Civilized men ie. Greeks, had modest features to reflect their self control over their desire, think Apollo, god of knowledge, whereas the Satyrs, and the other hedonistic Dionysian barbarians had the "goods" so to speak because of their lack of self control.

    So you are saying that Greek sculptures are symbolic and do not represent actual people? But they got right every other organ of the human body, like fingers, hands, eyes, buttocks, girls are very lifelike, etc. They had a psychological complex only with male genitals and had inhibitions and could take a good look at them? Strange.

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  147. DFH says:
    @syonredux

    I am standing next to the Bosphorus. The other side is Asia. So if the BBC wanted to do a Mary Beard style historical film, shd they cat pple from Stockholm for this side & pple from Tokyo on the other?
     
    https://twitter.com/nntaleb/status/994202761884454912

    Lol @ the self-hating Arab’s attempt to hijack European culture because of his people’s lack of their own accomplishments

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    • Replies: @patrick
    Phoenicians (the actual ancestors of Lebanese like Taleb) accomplished a lot long before Northern Europe had any civilized societies. Who exactly developed the alphabet and founded the first cities in Western Europe (Cadiz, Seville)? I'll give you a hint. It wasn't the British or Germans.
    Taleb overdoes it, but he has a point sometimes. The Pre-Islamic Near East and the Greco-Roman world were closely intertwined and often overlapped. Even now, long after the rise of Islam and the fall of Byzantium, I think most Greeks and Sicilians would feel more in common with, say, Lebanese Christians or Armenians than with Danes or Dutch.
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  148. syonredux says:
    @Unzerker
    I'm Dutch and I've learned ancient Greek in school and went there a couple of times. Compared to the Western European countries I had been to it was very very different. I never felt that we NW Europeans and the Greeks had a lot in common. We don't share a history, religion, culture, language or even a writing system.

    It's an Eastern Mediterranean people with an Eastern Mediterranean culture.

    . I never felt that we NW Europeans and the Greeks had a lot in common. We don’t share a history, religion, culture, language or even a writing system.

    The Roman alphabet is derived from the Greek. Western philosophy starts with the Greeks. Christianity is the fusion of Greek thought and Jewish monotheism. The Renaissance is unimaginable without the Greeks.

    Old Joke: Western Civilization is a Frankenstein’s Monster. It has a Greek brain, a Hebrew heart, and a Roman Body.

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    • Replies: @Unzerker

    The Renaissance is unimaginable without the Greeks.
     
    Is this still a thing?

    In practice the Renaissance has little to do with either the ancient Greeks or Romans. Think of it. All that Greek/Roman knowledge never caused a Renaissance like revolution with the Greeks, Romans or Arabs.

    The Renaissance happened because Western-Europe had a relative large literate middle class of people thirsting for knowledge and the printing press made it possible to spread information and ideas quickly and cheaply.

    Without the printing press the Renaissance was impossible. It was an information revolution similar to the invention of the Internet. The Greeks had nothing to do with it.
    , @dearieme
    Jewish monotheism is the consequence of the influence of Persian monotheism on Jewish polytheism.

    Or so some scholars argue.
    , @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Katherine is correct of course.
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  149. @syonredux

    There were some, but they were few in number.
     
    Very few. 20,000 would be a high estimate, and most of them were concentrated in a handful of cities (London, Liverpool, etc).

    I once chatted with a colleague (emeritus) who was born in Birmingham in 1930. Talking about the racial transformation of the UK that he's witnessed in his lifetime, he noted that he couldn't recall even seeing a Black person until he was in his mid-20s and living in London.

    Talking about the racial transformation of the UK that he’s witnessed in his lifetime, he noted that he couldn’t recall even seeing a Black person until he was in his mid-20s and living in London.

    Living in Yorkshire, the first time I saw a live black person close-up was in the 60′s in a field near Leeds. His name was Garfield and he was left-handed.

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    • Replies: @GarfieldSobers

    Living in Yorkshire, the first time I saw a live black person close-up was in the 60′s in a field near Leeds. His name was Garfield and he was left-handed.
     
    That made me laugh. Our American cousins won't get it. The first one I saw was also a cricketer. That was in 1963.
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  150. @syonredux

    I am standing next to the Bosphorus. The other side is Asia. So if the BBC wanted to do a Mary Beard style historical film, shd they cat pple from Stockholm for this side & pple from Tokyo on the other?
     
    https://twitter.com/nntaleb/status/994202761884454912

    The wogs start at Calais, Mr Nassim N. Taleb!

    I hereby challenge Mr. Nassim N. Taleb to a weight lifting contest. I shall require 5 years to prepare, and then the iron shall tell the tale.

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  151. GW says:
    @Charles Pewitt
    Baby boomer globalizer Bill Clinton said in 1998 at a commencement speech in Oregon that mass immigration will cause Whites to be made into just another minority. Baby boomer Bill Clinton was honest about his evil plot to attack the European Christian ancestral core of the United States.

    Bill Clinton was working with evil GOP baby boomers such as Newt Gingrich(1943 is close enough for me) and the evil GOP ruling class to use mass immigration as a demographic weapon to attack and destroy the European Christian ancestral core of the United States. John McCain was helping Clinton and Gingrich in their attacks on the historic American nation.

    Bill Clinton's anti-White 1998 Oregon Speech, portions:

    The driving force behind our increasing diversity is a new, large wave of immigration. It is changing the face of America. And while most of the changes are good, they do present challenges which demand more, both from new immigrants and from our citizens. Citizens share a responsibility to welcome new immigrants, to ensure that they strengthen our Nation, to give them their chance at the brass ring. In turn, new immigrants have a responsibility to learn, to work, to contribute to America. If both citizens and immigrants do their part, we will grow ever stronger in the new global information economy.

     


    But now we are being tested again by a new wave of immigration larger than any in a century, far more diverse than any in our history. Each year, nearly a million people come legally to America. Today, nearly one in 10 people in America was born in another country; one in 5 schoolchildren are from immigrant families. Today, largely because of immigration, there is no majority race in Hawaii or Houston or New York City. Within 5 years, there will be no majority race in our largest State, California. In a little more than 50 years, there will be no majority race in the United States. No other nation in history has gone through demographic change of this magnitude in so short a time.

     

    EVIL is the word for baby boomer scum such as Bill and Hillary Clinton.

    EVIL is the word for baby boomers who push nation-wrecking mass immigration, multiculturalism, financialization and transnationalism.

    EVIL baby boomers must be removed from power.

    Of course Bill was just parroting conventional wisdom. What’s striking is how moderate it sounds today…no Democrats are calling on immigrants to be responsible or to work hard and learn (implying assimilation) and very few Republicans say this either. The assumption is that immigrants are an unquestioned good for the country and any denial of this is racist and beyond reproach.

    We have far more problems than Bill Clinton. It’d be far more profitable to focus your anger on a judicial system that has frankly taken power away from the people and any recourse we might seek from globalist oligarchs.

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  152. dearieme says:

    “La Zuckerberg’s book is scheduled for publication in January 2019.” Oh Mr iSteve! It’s due out in the UK in 2018.

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    • Replies: @syonredux

    “La Zuckerberg’s book is scheduled for publication in January 2019.” Oh Mr iSteve! It’s due out in the UK in 2018.
     
    What did the UK do to deserve that horror......
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  153. Anonymous[178] • Disclaimer says:
    @Thorfinnsson
    Some other important questions of the age:

    Were the Ancient Greeks gay?

    Were the Ancient Greeks trans?

    Were the Ancient Greeks genderqueer?

    Were the Ancient Greeks undocumented?

    Some other important questions of the age:

    Were the Ancient Greeks gay?

    Sure! Socrates for example explained that Ancient Greek pederasts liked all type of boys. They found the dark ones very attractive , they were manly in their eyes:

    “It was proper for another, Glaucon, to say what you’re saying,” I said. “But it’s not proper for an erotic man to forget that all boys in the bloom of youth in one way or another put their sting in an erotic lover of boys and arouse him; all seem worthy of attention and delight. Or don’t you people behave that way with the fair? You praise the boy with a snub nose by calling him ‘cute’; the hook-nose of another you say is ‘kingly’; and the boy between these two is ‘well proportioned’; the dark look ‘manly’; and the white are ‘children of gods.’ And as for the ‘honey-colored,’ do you suppose their very name is the work of anyone other than a lover who renders sallowness endearing and easily puts up with it if it accompanies the bloom of youth? And, in a word, you people take advantage of every excuse and employ any expression so as to reject none of those who glow with the bloom of a youth.”

    Strato was like that, explaining his democratic appetites:

    I love boys Who are pale, and the same time the honey-skinned.
    And Sandy haired; however I also cherish the dark ones.
    I don’t pass over hazel eyes, but I specially Love
    Those with sparkling Black eyes.

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  154. When you consider that dark hair, eyes and complexion are all dominant, as compared to recessive, then as we move forward in time, the population is gradually darkening. Thus as we go back in time, the opposite would be the case. King David of Israel was described as ruddy, for example. Same with King Tut of Egypt. The ancient Greeks would have been pretty Aryan looking, at least until they were conquered and mixed by those blasted taffy yanking Turks. Note that Greek achievements have really dropped off over the last few hundred years, too.

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    • Replies: @anonymous coward

    When you consider that dark hair, eyes and complexion are all dominant, as compared to recessive
     
    This isn't true, and looking around at actual family histories shows it isn't.
    , @Dicker Max
    A better approach would be to stop parroting German-Nordic supremacist ideas and look as foolish as those black-Athena-loving afrocentrists. It's sad that, although it's not that hard to notice how similar Ancient Greek statues and (good looking) modern Greeks look like, and despite all the new ancient DNA evidence that's available today, people keep clinging to their preconceptions.

    No matter what you may believe, we're still here, and we're still pretty much the same people. Deal with it.

    http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/08/greeks-really-do-have-near-mythical-origins-ancient-dna-reveals

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  155. David says:

    Lucian in a mocking essay on an ignorant book collector says, “shell an Ethiopian wash?” to mean “can a tiger change its spots?”

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    • Replies: @kaganovitch
    It's a leopard not a tiger that has spots and it predates Lucian substantially. It's in the Bible ,Jeremiah13;23
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  156. @Jonathan Mason
    Talking about the racial transformation of the UK that he’s witnessed in his lifetime, he noted that he couldn’t recall even seeing a Black person until he was in his mid-20s and living in London.

    Living in Yorkshire, the first time I saw a live black person close-up was in the 60's in a field near Leeds. His name was Garfield and he was left-handed.

    Living in Yorkshire, the first time I saw a live black person close-up was in the 60′s in a field near Leeds. His name was Garfield and he was left-handed.

    That made me laugh. Our American cousins won’t get it. The first one I saw was also a cricketer. That was in 1963.

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    • Replies: @Brutusale
    The baseball fans among us did.
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  157. The science-deniers are sounding increasingly shrill.

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  158. Unzerker says:
    @syonredux

    . I never felt that we NW Europeans and the Greeks had a lot in common. We don’t share a history, religion, culture, language or even a writing system.
     
    The Roman alphabet is derived from the Greek. Western philosophy starts with the Greeks. Christianity is the fusion of Greek thought and Jewish monotheism. The Renaissance is unimaginable without the Greeks.

    Old Joke: Western Civilization is a Frankenstein's Monster. It has a Greek brain, a Hebrew heart, and a Roman Body.

    The Renaissance is unimaginable without the Greeks.

    Is this still a thing?

    In practice the Renaissance has little to do with either the ancient Greeks or Romans. Think of it. All that Greek/Roman knowledge never caused a Renaissance like revolution with the Greeks, Romans or Arabs.

    The Renaissance happened because Western-Europe had a relative large literate middle class of people thirsting for knowledge and the printing press made it possible to spread information and ideas quickly and cheaply.

    Without the printing press the Renaissance was impossible. It was an information revolution similar to the invention of the Internet. The Greeks had nothing to do with it.

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    • Replies: @syonredux

    The Greeks had nothing to do with it.
     
    Trying to imagine the Renaissance without the impact of Greek philosophy.....


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renaissance#Latin_and_Greek_phases_of_Renaissance_humanism


    Trying to imagine Renaissance art without the influence of the Greeks....

    https://www.guidedflorencetours.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/david_michelangelo2.jpg

    https://ericgerlachdotcom.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/apollo-statue.jpg
    , @Hibernian
    Your last two paragraphs make it clear you're confusing the Renaissance with the Reformation.
    , @J.Ross
    The very simple explanation of the Renaissance is that the church, which had favored certain Greek authors, started to permit others, enabling massive philosophical changes that enabled material innovation.
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  159. @MEH 0910
    http://www.hup.harvard.edu/images/jackets/9780674975552-lg.jpg

    I can’t even …

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  160. Truth says:
    @syonredux

    Last year in an article published in Forbes, the Classics scholar Sarah Bond at the University of Iowa caused a storm by pointing out that many of the Greek statues that seem white to us now were in antiquity painted in colour.
     
    Dunno. Even with the color restored, they still look pretty White.....

    http://eu.greekreporter.com/files/statues-apollo.jpg

    This year, it was the turn of BBC’s new television series Troy: Fall of a City (2018-) to attract ire, which cast black actors in the roles of Achilles, Patroclus, Zeus, Aeneas and others (as if using anglophone northern European actors were any less anachronistic).
     
    Might want to read Reich's new book. Northern Europeans and Southern Europeans are more closely related to each other than they the are to Sub-Saharan Africans......

    My aim in this essay, rather, is to consider how the Greeks themselves viewed differences in skin colour. The differences are instructive – and, indeed, clearly point up the oddity of the modern, western obsession with classification by pigmentation.

     

    Give a Sub-Saharan African a Baltic complexion, he's still not gonna look like a White guy. Color terms are just shorthand for a host of racial signifiers.

    This word is often translated as ‘blond’, a translation that gives a powerful steer to the modern imagination. But translation can be deceptive. As Maria Michel Sassi’s essay for Aeon makes clear, the Greek colour vocabulary simply doesn’t map directly onto that of modern English. Xanthos could be used for things that we would call ‘brown’, ‘ruddy’, ‘yellow’ or ‘golden’.
     
    On the other hand, we're pretty safe in assuming that his hair was non-Black/dark brown.


    Now, translating kuaneos (the root of the English ‘cyan’) as ‘blue’, as I have done here, is at first sight a bit silly: most translators take the word to mean ‘dark’. But given the usual colour of hyacinths, maybe – just maybe – he did have blue hair after all? Who knows; but here, certainly, is another example of just how alien the Homeric colour scheme is.

     

    Not that alien. After all, we have the term "blue-black" for especially dark hair, which evinces no lighter shades, not even the brightest sunlight.....

    And what of ‘black-skinned’? Was Odysseus in fact black? Or was he (as Emily Wilson’s acclaimed new translation renders it) ‘tanned’? Once again, we can see how different translations prompt modern readers to envisage these characters in completely different ways. But to understand the Homeric text, we need to shed these modern associations. Odysseus’ blackness, like Achilles’ xanthos hair, isn’t intended to play to modern racial categories;

     

    Just like pre-20th century Anglo writers:


    Jonathan Swift on the Duke of Somerset:

    Duke of Somerset:

    Is of a middle stature, well shaped, a very black complexion, a lover of music and poetry; of good judgment [not a grain;hardly common sense];but by reason of a great hesitation in his speech wants expression. He is about forty-two years old.
     

    In the fourteenth year of my age, by a fellow scholar of swarth, black complexion, I had like to have my right eye beaten out as we were at play

    William Lilly’s history of his life and times from the year 1602 to 1681, page 20
     
    A description of the inhabitants of the Western Isles of Scotland:

    The Inhabitants are generally well proportioned, and of a black Complexion; they speak only the Irish Tongue and use the Habit, Diet, and etc that is used in the Western Isles
     
    A description of Thomas, Earl of Ormonde:

    He was a very comely and graceful man, and of a black complexion, which gained him among the Irish the surname of Duffe

    A History of the Life of James Duke of Ormonde, Volume 1, page Lxiv
     

    Greeks certainly noticed different shades of pigmentation (of course), and they differentiated themselves from the darker peoples of Africa and India, sometimes in aggressively dismissive terms that we would now call racist;
     
    Indeed:

    http://img.4plebs.org/boards/pol/image/1474/85/1474858042845.jpg

    Greeks and Romans, well acquainted with their contemporaries, differentiated between the various gradations of color in Mediterranean populations and made it clear that only some of the black- or dark-skinned peoples, those coming from the south of Egypt and the southern fringes of northwest Africa, were Ethiopians, i.e. Negroes. Ethiopians, known as the blackest peoples on earth, became the yardstick by which classical authors measured the color of others. In first century AD, Manilius described Ethiopians as the blackest; Indians, less sunburnt; Egyptians, mildly dark; with Moors the lightest in this color scheme. In other words, to all these peoples–Ethiopians, Indians, Egyptians, and Moors–who were darker than the Greeks and Romans, classical authors applied color-words but it should be emphasized that in general the ancients described only one of these–Ethiopians–as unmistakably Negroid.
     
    http://library.howard.edu/content.php?pid=554250

    In the upper (ie, southern) part of the Nile valley, in modern Sudan, lay another magnificent civilisation known variously as Kush, the Meroitic kingdom and Nubia.
     
    Magnificent compared to what? Its culture was a mere echo of Egypt's....

    The Greeks came to call this place ‘Ethiopia’, which can mean ‘land of the burnt-faced people’.
     
    Sounds like a decent descriptive for Sub-Saharan Africans....

    But there are also vases that show mythical combatants with (exaggerated) African features, who might or might not be Memnon and his warriors.

     

    Wait, so racial differences are not limited to skin color?Who knew?

    The big question, of course, is whether we can say anything about what Greeks themselves looked like. Here we have to tread especially carefully, because there are a lot of traps. People often and very easily refer to ancient Greeks as ‘European’, as if the meaning of that term were self-evident. But ‘Europe’ is a historical construct, not a fact of nature.

     

    Again, read Reich's book. Europeans are pretty closely related to each other....

    To quote the paper, Minoan Greeks took ‘at least three-quarters of their ancestry from the first Neolithic farmers of western Anatolia and the Aegean, and most of the remainder from ancient populations related to those of the Caucasus and Iran’. DNA from the Mycenaean period (taken as 1700-1200 BCE) saw new genetic input from the Eurasian Steppe or Armenia.
     
    Well, with that mix, I would say that it's a safe bet that they didn't look like Sub-Saharan Africans....

    The upshot is that we can be pretty confident that ancient Greeks were similar in genotype and phenotype to modern Greeks.
     
    http://metaxas-project.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/nelly-nellys-greek-photographer-metaxas-fascism-01.png

    https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-
    FGGgpaXOTtI/WLaNSxuqvAI/AAAAAAACD4E/U0ZW_0uzt98PWpypZkcQKayUKLQ0Eff8gCLcB/s1600/nellys-greek.JPG





    https://classicgrandtour.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/cf86cf89cf84cebfceb3cf81ceaccf86cebfcf82-nelly-cf80ceb1cf81ceb1cebbcebbceb7cebbceb9cf83cebccebfceaf.jpg


    https://78.media.tumblr.com/a6e63490e7e820afb50f424c50a0a79f/tumblr_ovr6yukWkB1sjmae6o1_500.jpg

    The last picture’s a dude, so I guess the Greeks didn’t know color or gender.

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    • Replies: @syonredux

    The last picture’s a dude, so I guess the Greeks didn’t know color or gender.
     
    Dear fellow, you need to visit Black Africa more often.....

    https://www.runnersworld.com/sites/runnersworld.com/files/articles/2016/07/semenyaflex.jpg
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  161. Truth says:
    @syonredux
    http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/05/10/article-0-13051C99000005DC-957_964x652.jpg

    Two more long-armed, broad-shouldered, masculine-profiled, dudes.

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    • Replies: @Svigor
    They don't have masculine profiles, you can't even tell if they're broad-shouldered or long-armed from that photo (maybe you know who they are? Because I don't), and they're women. My God you've gone off the deep end. And if you think those two are men, you must think every...single...Black..."woman"...on...Earth...is...actually...a...male.
    , @syonredux

    Two more long-armed, broad-shouldered, masculine-profiled, dudes.
     
    https://l7.alamy.com/zooms/eebe0f0504ad4c3d9e427e48396cbe40/athletics-rio-2016-olympic-games-womens-800-meter-trials-eldoret-kenya-g9w6pn.jpg
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  162. dearieme says:
    @syonredux

    . I never felt that we NW Europeans and the Greeks had a lot in common. We don’t share a history, religion, culture, language or even a writing system.
     
    The Roman alphabet is derived from the Greek. Western philosophy starts with the Greeks. Christianity is the fusion of Greek thought and Jewish monotheism. The Renaissance is unimaginable without the Greeks.

    Old Joke: Western Civilization is a Frankenstein's Monster. It has a Greek brain, a Hebrew heart, and a Roman Body.

    Jewish monotheism is the consequence of the influence of Persian monotheism on Jewish polytheism.

    Or so some scholars argue.

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    • Replies: @syonredux

    Jewish monotheism is the consequence of the influence of Persian monotheism on Jewish polytheism.

    Or so some scholars argue.
     
    Shouldn't that be Persian Dualism?


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahura_Mazda

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angra_Mainyu
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  163. Truth says:
    @Anonymous
    As with the early Aryans of India, the small penis was considered the ideal and big ones vulgar and uncouth. This appears in the Kama Sutra if memory serves.

    It's interesting to note that in sub-Saharan Africa, some tribes have men with substantially larger than "normal" ones, some don't. But both Dominicans and Haitians are famously bejingled, even though one is a mulatto group with a whiter than average overclass (who are just as huge on average-the famous Porfirio Rubirosa was, if bigger than average, still not particularly noteworthy for size amongst fellow Dominicans, and he was probably much whiter than the average Dominican) and the other is almost pure Congoid.

    Today, while it might not be considered an ideal or even desirable, the one nation with men who are on average on the smaller side, is Japan. Japanese condoms are actually made to a smaller standard size-the machines use a mandrel that is thinner than used anywhere else. Japan is probably the racially purest nation left on the planet as well. So maybe the Greeks and ancient Indians found that the best specimens of men in terms of other qualities besides sexual attraction or performance (and after all, what the women thought was of no import!) tended to be more modestly endowed, and purer, and that's why it became an ideal.

    As with the early Aryans of India, the small penis was considered the ideal and big ones vulgar and uncouth. This appears in the Kama Sutra if memory serves.

    Well it has to be nice to know that somewhere, at some point in time, you were once part of the “in” crowd; Old Sport.

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    • Savage: BenKenobi
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  164. Corn says:
    @syonredux

    I stopped watching Peaky Blinders immediately after an angry character said “get your fucking hands off me!” I’m 99.9999% sure that an enraged Englishman in that era would have said “bloody,” which, back then, was arguably more taboo than “fucking” is now, in our degenerate era. Wiktionary doesn’t have much on “fucking” as an intensifier, but I imagine it is an Americanism only quite recently adopted into the British vocabulary.
     
    Anachronistic obscenities are really annoying. One of the reasons why I could never get into Deadwood was because they had 1870s American cowboys talking like contemporary Black thugs.

    Supposedly some of the writers for Deadwood took the time to research 1870-80s vernacular and came to believe that the curses and profanities of the time would sound too ridiculous to modern ears, so they substituted modern swears.

    One writer said something to the effect, “if we kept the profanity true to the times the actors would sound like live action Yosemite Sams”.

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    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    British enlisted men tended to use the modern f-word vocabulary by either the first or second world war according to novelists who served, but I can't remember which war.
    , @Randal

    One writer said something to the effect, “if we kept the profanity true to the times the actors would sound like live action Yosemite Sams”.
     
    For me, such decisions are what make the difference between drama of informative and educational substance, and superficial tripe. Clearly, the Deadwood writers chose the tripe route.
    , @Melendwyr
    All too true. 'Goddamn' is considered a very weak profanity, almost milquetoast, in the modern world; in the period of the show, it was much stronger.

    A comparison could be made to the curses used in comic books, which were considered to be suitable substitutions for the eyes of children, but in their original medieval contexts were shockingly blasphemous and strongly discouraged. 'For example, 'zounds' is a contraction of "by God's wounds", with the belief being that swearing by the wounds of Christ would tear apart of the physical body of Jesus if the oath wasn't kept.
    , @Buffalo Joe
    Corn, I thought the dialogue in "Deadwood" sounded like a bunch of teens trying out "swear" words. I tried watching "Black Sails" and found the constant use of the "C" word to be ridiculous. Hate that word, reserve only for those I detest the most.
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  165. @Unzerker

    I am sure if you saw a black Nubian prince bedecked in gold jewelry and exotic furs parading through Rome as a boy
     
    Which Nubian prince would that be?...Oh, you are just making it up.

    The fact that the Romans chose to occupy Britain and not Sudan speaks volumes.

    The Romans saw plenty of Sub-saharans.
     
    I really wonder how many sub-Saharan Africans there were in the Roman empire:

    They didn't sail along the western coast of Africa until the Spanish and Portuguese started doing in around the 14th century AD.
    They hadn't introduced camels in Africa until 3rd century AD to help them cross the thousands of km of desert.
    The Suez canal didn't exist and even if they used a boat to cross the red sea, they still had to traverse 200km of desert
    Even following the Nile down-flow doesn't seem to have been that easy.

    My guess is that they would have been a very rare sight outside of Egypt.

    Recent high tech grave robbing in an Egyptian cemetery in Roman times comes up with about 8% sub-Saharan DNA by ancestry, less than today in Egypt. Probably in Greek times would have been even less. But still, there would likely have been a few mixed race people in Egypt from up the river, kind of like in the opera “Aida.”

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    • Replies: @Unzerker
    The fact that ancient Egyptians had so little sub-Saharan DNA makes me wonder how difficult it was to travel down the Nile from Sudan.

    Apparently you couldn't simply built a raft and float down the river.
    , @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    So then, Cecil B. DeMille actually got it right in his 1956 film The Ten Commandments (which is supposed to be set in ancient Egypt, say, about ca.1300-1100BC). There are Sub-Saharan blacks in the picture, but they are mainly confined to servant work and remain in the background. In other words they don't have prominent roles in ancient Egyptian society nor were there very many of them.

    In his 1934 film Cleopatra, blacks are confined to the same types of roles (servant/domestic work). However, perhaps anticipating all the Black Athena hoopla by several decades, some of the Romans ask about her, what does she look like? One Roman asks "Is she black?" And everyone at the Roman societal get together laugh uproariously. As DeMille often used original ancient historical sources, it's funny how that kind of question was asked about her even in historical accounts.
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  166. syonredux says:
    @dearieme
    "La Zuckerberg’s book is scheduled for publication in January 2019." Oh Mr iSteve! It's due out in the UK in 2018.

    “La Zuckerberg’s book is scheduled for publication in January 2019.” Oh Mr iSteve! It’s due out in the UK in 2018.

    What did the UK do to deserve that horror……

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  167. syonredux says:
    @dearieme
    Jewish monotheism is the consequence of the influence of Persian monotheism on Jewish polytheism.

    Or so some scholars argue.

    Jewish monotheism is the consequence of the influence of Persian monotheism on Jewish polytheism.

    Or so some scholars argue.

    Shouldn’t that be Persian Dualism?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahura_Mazda

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angra_Mainyu

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    • Replies: @dearieme
    "Shouldn’t that be Persian Dualism?" Apparently opinions differ.

    I've cooled a bit on WKPD in the last few days after finding what are certainly lies in an entry: whoppers that cannot possibly be accidental or the result of honest misunderstanding.
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  168. Corn says:
    @Unzerker

    I am sure if you saw a black Nubian prince bedecked in gold jewelry and exotic furs parading through Rome as a boy
     
    Which Nubian prince would that be?...Oh, you are just making it up.

    The fact that the Romans chose to occupy Britain and not Sudan speaks volumes.

    The Romans saw plenty of Sub-saharans.
     
    I really wonder how many sub-Saharan Africans there were in the Roman empire:

    They didn't sail along the western coast of Africa until the Spanish and Portuguese started doing in around the 14th century AD.
    They hadn't introduced camels in Africa until 3rd century AD to help them cross the thousands of km of desert.
    The Suez canal didn't exist and even if they used a boat to cross the red sea, they still had to traverse 200km of desert
    Even following the Nile down-flow doesn't seem to have been that easy.

    My guess is that they would have been a very rare sight outside of Egypt.

    According to Wikipedia the Romans sent three expeditions to sub-Saharan Africa, one got as far as the shores of Lake Chad.
    Your average Roman Empire resident probably never saw a black person, and the Romans contact with blacks was probably limited to say the least. But it would seem to me by the Empire era at least Roman soldiers, scholars, traders were aware of the existence of blacks.

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    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    And the Romans may have sent a couple of delegations to the Chinese emperor.

    But the world was more open to long distance travel in Roman times than in whatever period we are attributing Achilles to.

    , @Stebbing Heuer
    Mary Beard begs to differ.
    , @syonredux

    The assumption that a majority of the inhabitants of north Africa such as Numidians, Gaetulians, and Moors, were blacks, is also contradicted by the ancient evidence. Classical accounts clearly distinguish between the light-skinned inhabitants of coastal northwest Africa and the darker Ethiopians who lived on the southern fringes of the area. The ancient sources also point to the presence in northwest Africa of mixed black-white types, strongly suggested by names such as Libyoaethiopes (Libyan Ethiopians), Leucoaethiopes (white Ethiopians) and Melanogeatuli (black Gaetulians), a kind of intermediate population, an amalgam of whites and Ethiopians, and by the descriptions of the Garamantes, classified in some classical texts as Ethiopians but distinguished from Ethiopians by others. [15] Classical accounts of the physical features of northwest Africans are amply confirmed by the iconographical evidence. Mosaics, sculpture in the round, and other art objects from northwest Africa depict the inhabitants as predominantly white and portray relatively few blacks
     
    http://library.howard.edu/content.php?pid=554250
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  169. @snorlax
    The Greek Seleucid kingdom in Persia (established after Alexander's conquests) certainly knew about China. Greeks in Greece, probably not.

    A few Romans went to China but not Chinese ever went to Europe that we know of. The Byzantine emperor Justinian (r. A.D. 527-525) famously arranged the smuggling of silk worms from China to Europe, breaking the Chinese monopoly. The Chinese on the other hand never bothered to figure out how the blown glass they imported from Rome was produced, even though the process was as simple as could be and required no such elaborate capers to replicate.

    I’m not sure they cared that much about glass. Chinese steel was also looked upon favorably by the Romans

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    • Replies: @Autochthon
    I am sure they would have cared a great deal about glass; it is useful as all Hell to anyone with half a brain. Did the Amerindians not care about guns just because they generally stole them or traded for them rather than becoming gunsmiths themselves? Of course not. The idea anyone without glass, when shown it, would be utterly uninterested is disingenuous to the point of stupidity.
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  170. Michelle says:

    Greek American musician, Johnny Otis (Ioannis Alexandres Veliotes) passed as Black. He looked as Black as Cab Callaway did, which was not much.

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  171. syonredux says:
    @Unzerker

    The Renaissance is unimaginable without the Greeks.
     
    Is this still a thing?

    In practice the Renaissance has little to do with either the ancient Greeks or Romans. Think of it. All that Greek/Roman knowledge never caused a Renaissance like revolution with the Greeks, Romans or Arabs.

    The Renaissance happened because Western-Europe had a relative large literate middle class of people thirsting for knowledge and the printing press made it possible to spread information and ideas quickly and cheaply.

    Without the printing press the Renaissance was impossible. It was an information revolution similar to the invention of the Internet. The Greeks had nothing to do with it.

    The Greeks had nothing to do with it.

    Trying to imagine the Renaissance without the impact of Greek philosophy…..

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renaissance#Latin_and_Greek_phases_of_Renaissance_humanism

    Trying to imagine Renaissance art without the influence of the Greeks….

    Read More
    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Way way wait, what kind of homoerotic stuff is being posted here at, oh. Greek statuary. Of course.

    Never mind.
    , @Buffalo Joe
    Syon, Hmmmm, that's a statue of David, which is a Biblical story and in this case sculpted by Michelangelo, so no connection to Ancient Greeks.
    , @Unzerker
    I don't care about philosophy. It has no use in the real world.
    I had to translate Plato in high school, but it always seemed trite bullshit to me. It was just something the Greeks liked to do to kill the time when they weren't buggering boys.

    Trying to imagine Renaissance art without the influence of the Greeks….
     
    I don't have to. Outside maybe of sculpting, Western-Europe was already ahead of the classical period when it came to art, architecture and technology.

    https://cdn.theculturetrip.com/images/56-3702374-1436538083e2585ec328674fb780c9c966d715ffdf.jpg

    https://cdn.thecrazytourist.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/Beauvais-Cathedral-1024x753.jpg

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  172. donut says:
    @Jim Christian
    Then there's Simonetta Stefanelli, Michael Corleone's Sicilian wife in G-1, while he was on the lam. Puzo characterized her in the book as 'more Greek than Sicilian". GOOD looking woman.

    https://youtu.be/bcND0kM0IJE

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d0/Simonetta_Stefanelli.png

    Maybe in the book but this woman is not Greek . Greek women’s features are more coarse and most of them need a shave , their faces that is .

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  173. @syonredux

    . I never felt that we NW Europeans and the Greeks had a lot in common. We don’t share a history, religion, culture, language or even a writing system.
     
    The Roman alphabet is derived from the Greek. Western philosophy starts with the Greeks. Christianity is the fusion of Greek thought and Jewish monotheism. The Renaissance is unimaginable without the Greeks.

    Old Joke: Western Civilization is a Frankenstein's Monster. It has a Greek brain, a Hebrew heart, and a Roman Body.

    Katherine is correct of course.

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  174. @syonredux

    The Greeks had nothing to do with it.
     
    Trying to imagine the Renaissance without the impact of Greek philosophy.....


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renaissance#Latin_and_Greek_phases_of_Renaissance_humanism


    Trying to imagine Renaissance art without the influence of the Greeks....

    https://www.guidedflorencetours.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/david_michelangelo2.jpg

    https://ericgerlachdotcom.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/apollo-statue.jpg

    Way way wait, what kind of homoerotic stuff is being posted here at, oh. Greek statuary. Of course.

    Never mind.

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  175. @Jim Christian
    Then there's Simonetta Stefanelli, Michael Corleone's Sicilian wife in G-1, while he was on the lam. Puzo characterized her in the book as 'more Greek than Sicilian". GOOD looking woman.

    https://youtu.be/bcND0kM0IJE

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d0/Simonetta_Stefanelli.png

    Jim, Thank you for the photo. She is one really attractive women, with a classical figure if you remember her nude scene.

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    • Replies: @Jim Christian
    Her upper-body nude scene was left out of the video, heh..She was the tip-top most beautiful chick I ever saw at peak. Thunderbolt-inspiring woman, classic beauty, nothing artificial. They really don't build them like that anymore.
    , @Anon
    As I remember it was a slip. She was covered from the top of the breasts to the knees.

    Or did you see the directors cut?
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  176. @Jim Christian
    Then there's Simonetta Stefanelli, Michael Corleone's Sicilian wife in G-1, while he was on the lam. Puzo characterized her in the book as 'more Greek than Sicilian". GOOD looking woman.

    https://youtu.be/bcND0kM0IJE

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d0/Simonetta_Stefanelli.png

    Ok, she may look Greek, but she certainly can’t pass for black (e.g. sub-saharan African).

    Wonder whatever happened to Simonetta?

    Michael should’ve taken her back to US and dumped Kate. Way prettier than Kate (Diane Keaton). Does anyone really consider Diane Keaton to be all that? I mean, she’s kinda in the mold of Katherine Hepburn. Very caucasian, but yet not very physically appealing.

    Simonetta would’ve spiced the story up a bit more as Michael’s wife brought back to America. She didn’t need to be whacked like that. Supposedly G-1 was one of Saddam Hussein’s favorite films.

    Historically speaking, Saddam Hussein could pass for white, correct? Or has Louis Farrakhan claimed him for NOI?

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    • Replies: @syonredux

    Michael should’ve taken her back to US and dumped Kate.
     
    Kay.

    Way prettier than Kate (Diane Keaton). Does anyone really consider Diane Keaton to be all that?
     
    Peak Keaton was pretty cute:


    https://78.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m15u7vBleW1qc8b9do1_500.jpg

    Michael should’ve taken her back to US and dumped Kate.

     

    Ethnic subtext. Michael wants to beat the WASP establishment.
    , @PiltdownMan

    Historically speaking, Saddam Hussein could pass for white, correct?
     
    A lot of pictures of the young Saddam make him look vaguely high yeller.

    https://i2.wp.com/upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b9/Saddam_Hussain_1980.jpg/396px-Saddam_Hussain_1980.jpg

    https://assemble.me/uploads/websites/1969/images/58371c25bd3ed.png

    His clansman and subordinate, Izzat Ibrahim al-Duri, of course, famously, looked like a Scotsman.

    http://www.ensonhaber.com/resimler/diger/el-duri_3656.jpg
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  177. @Corn
    According to Wikipedia the Romans sent three expeditions to sub-Saharan Africa, one got as far as the shores of Lake Chad.
    Your average Roman Empire resident probably never saw a black person, and the Romans contact with blacks was probably limited to say the least. But it would seem to me by the Empire era at least Roman soldiers, scholars, traders were aware of the existence of blacks.

    And the Romans may have sent a couple of delegations to the Chinese emperor.

    But the world was more open to long distance travel in Roman times than in whatever period we are attributing Achilles to.

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    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    But long distance travel two thousand years ago wasn't a walk in the park either. Especially eastward over land masses like the Caucasus Mts., and the unknown world of what later became Russia. Roman legions were amazing in battle but a simple delegation wouldn't have lasted very long having to wage battles with unknown barbarians.

    When it comes to traveling long distances through unknown lands, it does seem like the Romans were no different than modern man. "Meh, why bother? Flavius can get it for us wholesale through his Arabian merchant, who gets it from an Indian merchant, who gets it from....wherever the unknown world ends." A choice between staying in Capri and enjoying the spas or going across unknown lands just for a few extra spices and silks probably didn't seem all that appealing to the upper classes.

    Also, the operative word is "may" have sent a delegation. Suppose one could consult the ancient Chinese accounts of that time to see if any Romans did show up at the court of the Emperor.
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  178. @Yak-15
    Everything, everywhere, always and forever is the product of Africans.

    Yak, There is a good read on that subject, “Not out of Africa” by Mary Lefkowitz. She argues that the Afrocentric depiction of Greeks as Africans is BS.

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  179. songbird says:
    @Unzerker
    I'm Dutch and I've learned ancient Greek in school and went there a couple of times. Compared to the Western European countries I had been to it was very very different. I never felt that we NW Europeans and the Greeks had a lot in common. We don't share a history, religion, culture, language or even a writing system.

    It's an Eastern Mediterranean people with an Eastern Mediterranean culture.

    I knew a lot of Greeks and Greek-Americans when growing up in the US. I don’t know if they were representative or not, but most seemed pretty European compared to various non-European ethnicities, and I don’t mean just in appearance. Some were fairly intelligent. Some were even conservative – this is, in general, a pretty hard group to find among non-Europeans.

    They were all Christian. I attended a wedding in a Greek Orthodox church, and, I don’t know how representative it was, but it made me feel the Catholic Church is pozzed. TBH, I consider myself fairly ecumenical, but my impression of most NW European churches today is one of some weird sort of paganism. I had a Greek teacher once, and she would always remind people that the Bible was written in Greek before it was written in Latin.

    I’ve heard tales of illiterate Gaelic bards in Ireland telling the story of Iliad and the Odyssey up into the early 20th century. I’m not sure how long they knew it before. The US certainly has a certain heritage in Greece, architecturally and politically. Greek is in the same language family – of course the counter would be so is Hindi.

    Don’t get me wrong: there seem to be real differences on the national level. Greece is a basket case, economically and politically. Not that one could be proud of NW Europe these days either. I’ve wondered quite a bit about how Greeks and Turks differ in Germany, as far as welfare dependency, etc. In the US, they seem to do well economically. I see Greece and Greeks as in the Southern cline of Europe. Perhaps, not interchangeable, but qualitatively better and less hostile than many others.

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    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
    Agreed. I'd gladly trade ten million of "our" Africans, Arabs, Mexicans, Chinese, whatever, in return for the entire Greek population of Greece settling here in the USA instead.
    , @Jefferson
    "I knew a lot of Greeks and Greek-Americans when growing up in the US. I don’t know if they were representative or not, but most seemed pretty European compared to various non-European ethnicities, and I don’t mean just in appearance."

    When talking averages and not exceptions anecdotal evidence, Greeks are easily distinguishable from WASPs. Greeks look a lot closer to the black haired Boston bomber Tsarnaev brothers than they do to Prince Harry.
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  180. songbird says:
    @syonredux

    I am standing next to the Bosphorus. The other side is Asia. So if the BBC wanted to do a Mary Beard style historical film, shd they cat pple from Stockholm for this side & pple from Tokyo on the other?
     
    https://twitter.com/nntaleb/status/994202761884454912

    “Europe” is a miscategory. Western Eurasia-Med is the proper ecology.

    So, if I am reading this right – Taleb doesn’t want to be left out.

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    • Replies: @syonredux

    “Europe” is a miscategory. Western Eurasia-Med is the proper ecology.

    So, if I am reading this right – Taleb doesn’t want to be left out.
     
    If the Byzantine Empire had managed to stamp out Islam.....
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  181. @syonredux

    Last year in an article published in Forbes, the Classics scholar Sarah Bond at the University of Iowa caused a storm by pointing out that many of the Greek statues that seem white to us now were in antiquity painted in colour.

     


    Seem white? Is marble not white? Or does he mean we only thought ancient Greeks were Caucasian because they were cast in white marble?
     
    http://www.tecnoetc.com.br/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/grecia4.jpg


    https://i.pinimg.com/564x/25/fa/c5/25fac5ff467c6177c22f6b3b59e6579b.jpg


    Yeah, they keep on talking about how restoring the color makes them look less White......But they still look pretty White to me....All that restoring the color does is make ancient Greek and Roman statuary look really tacky...

    Syon, Without the color they are what I would call classical sculptures. With the color they look like something you would have found in the décor section of an Ancient Greek Walmart

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    • Replies: @Lagertha
    Lawn Ornaments. Can't buy those jockeys anymore, but someone could make some bucks with mini Greek statues...something new besides the ole' gnomes. Haha, don't see the Mexican with the donkey & cart anymore, either. Mystical orbs still reign. I was at a frat party decades ago where the pledges had to collect orbs...inside one room, you could hang-out and marvel over the hundreds of orbs...like weird aliens.
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  182. @Unzerker

    I am sure if you saw a black Nubian prince bedecked in gold jewelry and exotic furs parading through Rome as a boy
     
    Which Nubian prince would that be?...Oh, you are just making it up.

    The fact that the Romans chose to occupy Britain and not Sudan speaks volumes.

    The Romans saw plenty of Sub-saharans.
     
    I really wonder how many sub-Saharan Africans there were in the Roman empire:

    They didn't sail along the western coast of Africa until the Spanish and Portuguese started doing in around the 14th century AD.
    They hadn't introduced camels in Africa until 3rd century AD to help them cross the thousands of km of desert.
    The Suez canal didn't exist and even if they used a boat to cross the red sea, they still had to traverse 200km of desert
    Even following the Nile down-flow doesn't seem to have been that easy.

    My guess is that they would have been a very rare sight outside of Egypt.

    Unze, The Romans used hippos, elephants and crocodiles in their circuses at the Colosseum. So, wouldn’t they have brought back black slaves too?

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    • Replies: @Unzerker
    The elephants were from N-Africa (now extinct) and crocodiles and hippos from the Nile.
    , @syonredux

    Unze, The Romans used hippos, elephants and crocodiles in their circuses at the Colosseum. So, wouldn’t they have brought back black slaves too?
     
    Some. Exotic specimens. Good for showing off.
    , @Randal

    The Romans used hippos, elephants and crocodiles in their circuses at the Colosseum. So, wouldn’t they have brought back black slaves too?
     
    Hippos and crocodiles were indigenous to the Nile area, and elephants were well known in North Africa. No need to venture into sub-Saharan Africa for any of them, let alone try to bring them back across miles of desert.
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  183. In the Iliad Homer regularly describes both Menelaus and Agamemnon as blond–or at least, as something that gets translated into English as blond. He similarly describes Athena as grey-eyed. I get the distinct impression that Greeks of Homer’s day did not look much like modern Greeks, but rather than looking black, they seem to have looked more like Slavs. Modern Greeks would seem to have rather more in common with the Turks than they would like to admit.

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    • Replies: @syonredux

    I get the distinct impression that Greeks of Homer’s day did not look much like modern Greeks, but rather than looking black, they seem to have looked more like Slavs.
     
    Other way around. Greece received an infusion of Slavic genes during the Middle Ages:

    https://www.unz.com/gnxp/greeks-with-slavic-ancestry-and-without/

    , @Difference maker
    The northern neighbors of the greeks have generally been fairer, including Alexander who was described as blond, and later invasions of Greek speaking peoples such as the Dorian are said to be fairer as well

    No surprise, as Greek is an indo European language, and Northern invasions have regularly breached the Danube frontier. There were Germans and even Celts in addition to the Slavs, going back to the proto Greek speakers themselves

    Note that classical Greek civilization following the dark age was always an amalgamation with a majority of Mediterraneans; this we can glean from genetics, history, and archeology, and some of the most accomplished cities such as Athens seem to have non indo European names or an otherwise substantial Mediterranean contribution. The Greeks seem to have called the original inhabitants Pelasgians

    , @RadicalCenter
    Do "Greeks" often have a substantial Turkish genetic component (which Italians do not have) due to centuries of domination by the Ottoman Empire? I don't know, just asking if someone here knows.
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  184. @syonredux

    The Greeks had nothing to do with it.
     
    Trying to imagine the Renaissance without the impact of Greek philosophy.....


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renaissance#Latin_and_Greek_phases_of_Renaissance_humanism


    Trying to imagine Renaissance art without the influence of the Greeks....

    https://www.guidedflorencetours.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/david_michelangelo2.jpg

    https://ericgerlachdotcom.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/apollo-statue.jpg

    Syon, Hmmmm, that’s a statue of David, which is a Biblical story and in this case sculpted by Michelangelo, so no connection to Ancient Greeks.

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    • Replies: @syonredux

    Syon, Hmmmm, that’s a statue of David, which is a Biblical story and in this case sculpted by Michelangelo, so no connection to Ancient Greeks.
     
    That's pretty funny.
    , @ThirdWorldSteveReader
    Statue-making is not very Hebrew, but was big in Greece. The Romans learned it from the Greeks, and the Renaissance Italians made their own masterpieces inspired on the old originals.
    , @syonredux

    Syon, Hmmmm, that’s a statue of David, which is a Biblical story and in this case sculpted by Michelangelo, so no connection to Ancient Greeks.
     
    Actually, that's more than funny. It's top-notch satire. Kudos!
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  185. When they remake the movie “300″ they can cast Morgan Freeman as an Ancient Greek, he has been cast as everything else.

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    • Replies: @sayless
    "Morgan Freeman has been cast as everything else"

    He has, and he plays Morgan Freeman every time.
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  186. @Corn
    Supposedly some of the writers for Deadwood took the time to research 1870-80s vernacular and came to believe that the curses and profanities of the time would sound too ridiculous to modern ears, so they substituted modern swears.

    One writer said something to the effect, “if we kept the profanity true to the times the actors would sound like live action Yosemite Sams”.

    British enlisted men tended to use the modern f-word vocabulary by either the first or second world war according to novelists who served, but I can’t remember which war.

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    • Replies: @Bill B.
    I suspect the f-word became much, much more widely used in the Second World War.

    Paul Fussell notes that the British authorities issued warnings that just because a stranger/suspect freely uses f*ck, etc. this was not the equivalent of a laissez-passer:

    In an official War Office pamphlet of October, 1941, issued not to reprehend the usage but simply to warn against careless identification of strangers. In North Africa a German spy dressed in British uniform had succeeded in deceiving a British unit because he spoke impeccable Other Ranks English. The War Office pamphlet warned: “lt should . . . be impressed on all ranks that the use in conversation of ‘f--—-s’ and ‘b----s’ is not necessarily a guarantee of British nationality.”
     
    I see that Ngram has F*ck (after some 16th/17th Century references) only appearing at the start of the 1960s; of course that doesn't mean it wasn't used informally.

    Surely though with the decline of religion, especially after WWI, the need for new 'fierce' words was felt.
    , @syonredux

    British enlisted men tended to use the modern f-word vocabulary by either the first or second world war according to novelists who served, but I can’t remember which war.
     
    The First.

    Robert Graves wrote about how it took him a while to clean-up his vocabulary.

    , @Anonymous
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bless_%27Em_All
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  187. 2329691

    Whoops, I meant what happened to Tarpeia… and yet the Sabine women work too to illustrate this point.

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  188. @Anon
    https://www.wired.com/story/mini-brains-just-got-creepiertheyre-growing-their-own-veins/

    MINI BRAINS JUST GOT CREEPIER—THEY’RE GROWING THEIR OWN VEINS
    Last week, it was Waldau’s group at UC Davis that published the first results of vascularized human neural organoids. Using brain membrane cells taken from one of his patients during a routine surgery, the team coaxed them first into stem cells, then some of them into the endothelial cells that line blood vessels’ insides. The stem cells they grew into brain balls, which they incubated in a gel matrix coated with those endothelial cells. After incubating for three weeks, they took a single organoid and transplanted it into a tiny cavity carefully carved into a mouse’s brain. Two weeks later the organoid was alive, well—and, critically, had grown capillaries that penetrated all the way to its inner layers.
     

    Humanocentric colonization of rodent brains!

    Soon mice will demand reparations.

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  189. My maternal grand father was Black Irish. I never met him but I knew his two sons. They had pale skin like my potato famine Irish neighbors. But their hair was coal black and wavy and their eyes were dark. Grandpappa’s daughters favored their mother from the low country.

    Who are the Black Irish?

    It is speculated that they were Irish/Moors returning to Ireland from Spain.
    Anybody?

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    • Replies: @DFH
    I think that's just what the native inhabitants of Britain looked like. The Welshest Welsh people look similar.
    , @Corn
    “Who are the Black Irish?

    It is speculated that they were Irish/Moors returning to Ireland from Spain.
    Anybody?”

    My paternal grandma was an Irish immigrant. According to my late father his mom told him we were black Irish because black and dark brown hair were rife in our family, along with some brown eyes. The story went when the Spanish Armada was attacked, burned and scattered some shipwrecked Spanish sailors and damaged Spanish ships washed up on Irish shores where the Spaniards mingled and coupled with Irish women.

    This doesn’t seem to be true. One needn’t have outside genes to be Irish and dark haired, and it’s my understanding both genealogists and geneticists have debunked that Black Irish story. But it seems ineradicable from Irish-American lore.
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  190. Unzerker says:
    @syonredux

    The Greeks had nothing to do with it.
     
    Trying to imagine the Renaissance without the impact of Greek philosophy.....


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renaissance#Latin_and_Greek_phases_of_Renaissance_humanism


    Trying to imagine Renaissance art without the influence of the Greeks....

    https://www.guidedflorencetours.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/david_michelangelo2.jpg

    https://ericgerlachdotcom.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/apollo-statue.jpg

    I don’t care about philosophy. It has no use in the real world.
    I had to translate Plato in high school, but it always seemed trite bullshit to me. It was just something the Greeks liked to do to kill the time when they weren’t buggering boys.

    Trying to imagine Renaissance art without the influence of the Greeks….

    I don’t have to. Outside maybe of sculpting, Western-Europe was already ahead of the classical period when it came to art, architecture and technology.

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    • Replies: @Roderick Spode

    buggering boys
     
    I know you're joking, but there wasn't nearly as much pederasty in ancient Athens as some would have us think.

    I agree with you about Plato. Obsolete!
    , @syonredux

    I don’t care about philosophy. It has no use in the real world.
     
    It affects how people understand the world.....

    Trying to imagine Renaissance art without the influence of the Greeks….

    I don’t have to. Outside maybe of sculpting, Western-Europe was already ahead of the classical period when it came to art, architecture and technology.
     
    Building on Greek achievements....


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diophantus

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archimedes


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euclid
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  191. Bill B. says:
    @Steve Sailer
    There's also the question of what time period we mean. The current best guess for the Trojan War was right after 1200 BC during the Late Bronze Age Collapse. Presumably oral accounts of the war were repeated and refined over several hundreds years during the Greek dark age with what we know as the Iliad being written down in 800 or 700 BC, at least as close to the time of Socrates as that of Achilles.

    Presumably, Greeks were less aware of the bigger world at various points in this period than in, say, Aristotle's time.

    At all times the Greeks seem to have been very conscious of themselves, to have been aware of the continuity of Greek history and to distinguish themselves from others from different, especially distant, cultures.

    The Prof chap is twisting himself into knots to ask a non-question. IIRC ancient Greek has different words to describe people with whom one has something in common and people who are not necessarily enemies but with whom one has much less in common.

    Pericles’ Funeral Oration (late 5th Century):

    “I will speak first of our ancestors, for it is right and seemly that now, when we are lamenting the dead, a tribute should be paid to their memory. There has never been a time when they did not inhabit this land, which by their valor they will have handed down from generation to generation, and we have received from them a free state.”

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  192. @Corn
    “The Greeks had no idea of the existence of Amerindians, Australians, or Polynesians, and very little awareness of East Asians.”

    Right. In those more primitive times the Greeks may habe known of blacks via Egypt maybe. Just maybe.

    Alexander hadn’t gone to India yet.

    Would the ancient Greeks have known of China? I seem to recall the Roman Empire traded with China through intermediaries central Asia, but I’m hazy on if any Roman went to China or vice versa.

    Hadrian (of the Wall) before he became Emperor, was the commander of the Romans stationed on the western side of the Great Wall of China. As far as I am aware, he never went through it, but it is thought that it was the inspiration for his wall across Britain to keep the Scotts and Picts out.

    Needham, in his book on Science & Civilization in China mentions a valley in western China that is inhabited by the descendants of a captured Roman legion and the Chinese women that they had widowed before they were captured.

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    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    During the 20th century, theory speculated that some of the people of Liqian may be descended from Ancient Romans. In the 1940s, Homer H. Dubs, a professor of Chinese history at the University of Oxford, suggested that the people of Liqian were descended from Roman legionaries taken prisoner at the Battle of Carrhae. These prisoners, Dubs proposed, were resettled by the victorious Parthians on their eastern border and may have fought as mercenaries at the Battle of Zhizhi, between the Chinese and the Xiongnu in 36 BC. Chinese chroniclers mention the use of a "fish-scale formation" of soldiers, which Dubs believed referred to the testudo formation – a Roman phalanx surrounded by shields on all sides.
     
    , @Randal

    Hadrian (of the Wall) before he became Emperor, was the commander of the Romans stationed on the western side of the Great Wall of China.
     
    ! Is this a joke?

    I'm sure the Parthians would have had something to say about that, not to mention the Kushans who were the second of the two substantial empires and 2-3000 miles that separated Rome and China at that time.
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  193. Bill B. says:

    the world as starkly divided along racial lines into black and white: that’s a strange aberration of the modern, Western world, a product of many different historical forces, but in particular the transatlantic slave trade and the cruder aspects of 19th-century racial theory.

    I have worked off-and-on for a total of more than a quarter of a century in Asia and I can promise you that racist attitudes and bold chauvinism weren’t invented by YT.

    PS Wasn’t Karl Marx so swarthy that he was nicknamed “The Moor” or something. Does that mean Jews are black?

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  194. @Unzerker
    I'm Dutch and I've learned ancient Greek in school and went there a couple of times. Compared to the Western European countries I had been to it was very very different. I never felt that we NW Europeans and the Greeks had a lot in common. We don't share a history, religion, culture, language or even a writing system.

    It's an Eastern Mediterranean people with an Eastern Mediterranean culture.

    I cannot claim any detailed knowledge of classical history, but I think the Romans depopulated Greece and moved other people(s) in. So modern Greeks are not closely related, descended from Ancient Greeks.

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  195. BB753 says:
    @syonredux

    There were some, but they were few in number.
     
    Very few. 20,000 would be a high estimate, and most of them were concentrated in a handful of cities (London, Liverpool, etc).

    I once chatted with a colleague (emeritus) who was born in Birmingham in 1930. Talking about the racial transformation of the UK that he's witnessed in his lifetime, he noted that he couldn't recall even seeing a Black person until he was in his mid-20s and living in London.

    According to the 2011 UK census, Birmingham was over 42% non-white. Makes you think. I believe it’s the second “blackest” major city in the UK, after London.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birmingham

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  196. Unzerker says:
    @Buffalo Joe
    Unze, The Romans used hippos, elephants and crocodiles in their circuses at the Colosseum. So, wouldn't they have brought back black slaves too?

    The elephants were from N-Africa (now extinct) and crocodiles and hippos from the Nile.

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  197. Unzerker says:
    @Steve Sailer
    Recent high tech grave robbing in an Egyptian cemetery in Roman times comes up with about 8% sub-Saharan DNA by ancestry, less than today in Egypt. Probably in Greek times would have been even less. But still, there would likely have been a few mixed race people in Egypt from up the river, kind of like in the opera "Aida."

    The fact that ancient Egyptians had so little sub-Saharan DNA makes me wonder how difficult it was to travel down the Nile from Sudan.

    Apparently you couldn’t simply built a raft and float down the river.

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    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    The Nile has cataracts.

    But also, why would sub-Saharans want to wander up to Egypt en masse (not a handful of traders, say)? What would the likely scenario for them be in that situation? To become a slave, or something close to it?
    , @Jefferson
    "The fact that ancient Egyptians had so little sub-Saharan DNA makes me wonder how difficult it was to travel down the Nile from Sudan."

    Little is subjective. By European standards 8% Sub Saharan African DNA in an Egyptian is quite a bit, as even Portuguese and Southern Italians don't have anywhere near that amount of Sub Saharan DNA.
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  198. Alfa158 says:
    @Vox Australis
    (? OT) Recently I watched on television a series about the Norman Conquest, and was surprised to see that one of William's advisers was a dark skinned male with African facial features. I would doubt that there were any black Africans in Normandy in the eleventh century, and I suspect that it was a sly attempt to rewrite history so that it conforms to current Leftist dogma. I am sure that if you asked the producer about the matter, he (or she) would have the chutzpah to respond "Well, how do you know that William didn't have a black African adviser?"

    There is also a strong monetary incentive. There are a lot of African actors in Britain now, and they want work. If you make an accurate depiction of the Norman conquests, that means none of them will get any roles and they’ll scream bloody murder about whitewashing history. The recent Darkest Hour movie inserted a fabricated scene of Churchill using the tube so they could feature a Wise Negro quoting the classics and inspiring Winston to resist the invasion and occupation of Britain. (Phew! glad the British dodged that bullet, eh?).
    If you watch any of the historical BBC dramas closely you will spot African extras wandering through the town market or hanging around the court. Modern dramas will have non-Whites prominently shown in every single program, no matter what part of Britain it is set in, or how far back in time. The Versailles series even included Louis the XIVth’s Queen cuckolding him with the ambassador from (in effect) Wakanda.
    It’s not quite as bad as US TV which is on track to having a mandatory 50% casting for Africans, but getting closer.

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  199. @foolisholdman
    Hadrian (of the Wall) before he became Emperor, was the commander of the Romans stationed on the western side of the Great Wall of China. As far as I am aware, he never went through it, but it is thought that it was the inspiration for his wall across Britain to keep the Scotts and Picts out.

    Needham, in his book on Science & Civilization in China mentions a valley in western China that is inhabited by the descendants of a captured Roman legion and the Chinese women that they had widowed before they were captured.

    During the 20th century, theory speculated that some of the people of Liqian may be descended from Ancient Romans. In the 1940s, Homer H. Dubs, a professor of Chinese history at the University of Oxford, suggested that the people of Liqian were descended from Roman legionaries taken prisoner at the Battle of Carrhae. These prisoners, Dubs proposed, were resettled by the victorious Parthians on their eastern border and may have fought as mercenaries at the Battle of Zhizhi, between the Chinese and the Xiongnu in 36 BC. Chinese chroniclers mention the use of a “fish-scale formation” of soldiers, which Dubs believed referred to the testudo formation – a Roman phalanx surrounded by shields on all sides.

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    • Replies: @songbird
    My understanding is that the DNA doesn't pan out.
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  200. @Unzerker
    I don't care about philosophy. It has no use in the real world.
    I had to translate Plato in high school, but it always seemed trite bullshit to me. It was just something the Greeks liked to do to kill the time when they weren't buggering boys.

    Trying to imagine Renaissance art without the influence of the Greeks….
     
    I don't have to. Outside maybe of sculpting, Western-Europe was already ahead of the classical period when it came to art, architecture and technology.

    https://cdn.theculturetrip.com/images/56-3702374-1436538083e2585ec328674fb780c9c966d715ffdf.jpg

    https://cdn.thecrazytourist.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/Beauvais-Cathedral-1024x753.jpg

    buggering boys

    I know you’re joking, but there wasn’t nearly as much pederasty in ancient Athens as some would have us think.

    I agree with you about Plato. Obsolete!

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    • Replies: @Truth
    Actually that is untrue. There were three conditions of citizenship in ancient Athens:

    1) Male

    2) Noble Birth

    3) a two-year live-in "internship" with a much older Greek citizen, starting around 14.

    Therefore, EVERY citizen of ancient Athens was a homosexual.
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  201. @Seamus Padraig

    ... practically everybody south of Dover was said to be more or less “black.”
     
    Wogs start at Calais!

    Similarly, before American racial culture ideas took over the world, the English would even have talked of “black Irish.”
     
    Long live Think Lizzy!

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phil_Lynott

    ... the transatlantic slave trade and the cruder aspects of 19th-century racial theory.
     
    Why don't they ever talk about the trans-Mediterranean slave trade? Do they actually believe the Spaniards and Portuguese actually came up with the idea of enslaving blacks all on their own?

    ... but they also differentiated themselves from the paler peoples of the North
     
    The Hyperboreans? ;-)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperborea#Physical_appearance

    "We might add that modern geneticists too find classification by skin colour unhelpful ..."
     
    No true racialist equates race exclusively with skin pigmentation--that's a straw man. Have you ever seen a black albino? I have. Despite the fact that he was whiter than I am, I still knew right away--even before he opened his mouth--that he was really black. The lips and the curly hair gave it away ... OK, and the dashiki helped too.

    Some time in the ’70s, Heffer’s Bookshop in the centre of Cambridge (UK) had an exhibition in their window, of ancient manuscripts from Moorish Spain. One, that was translated, said words to the effect that: “To the North of the Pyrranees, there lives a race of white giants, who are so stupid that they do not even make useful slaves.”

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  202. Bill B. says:
    @Steve Sailer
    British enlisted men tended to use the modern f-word vocabulary by either the first or second world war according to novelists who served, but I can't remember which war.

    I suspect the f-word became much, much more widely used in the Second World War.

    Paul Fussell notes that the British authorities issued warnings that just because a stranger/suspect freely uses f*ck, etc. this was not the equivalent of a laissez-passer:

    In an official War Office pamphlet of October, 1941, issued not to reprehend the usage but simply to warn against careless identification of strangers. In North Africa a German spy dressed in British uniform had succeeded in deceiving a British unit because he spoke impeccable Other Ranks English. The War Office pamphlet warned: “lt should . . . be impressed on all ranks that the use in conversation of ‘f–—-s’ and ‘b—-s’ is not necessarily a guarantee of British nationality.”

    I see that Ngram has F*ck (after some 16th/17th Century references) only appearing at the start of the 1960s; of course that doesn’t mean it wasn’t used informally.

    Surely though with the decline of religion, especially after WWI, the need for new ‘fierce’ words was felt.

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    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Waugh's 1942 novel "Put Out More Flags" remarks on how monotonously the enlisted men in the WWII British Army use the f-word in every sentence.

    I don't know how different that was from 25 years earlier.

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  203. When we have disappeared, we the white race, blond and blue-eyed, or not –
    then the remaining races, in hushed tones, will talk of that fabled time when gods walked the earth.

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    • Replies: @JackOH
    OPA, you may be on to something. I've noticed very occasionally a phenomenon among people that I can't quite describe. Something like "unwarranted amazement", but there's surely a better term.

    I'll offer a very trivial, not very good example. I attended a lecture in which the speaker mentioned a historic Ohio house from the 1830s. The house was still standing, at which point many attendees gasped with what I call "unwarranted amazement". I didn't understand. I don't know squat about construction, but it seems a well-constructed, well-maintained building can last a very long time.

    What I think I'm getting at is "knowledge loss" or "memory loss". I think. There are, I think, plenty of anecdotes about retail clerks who are at sea on those rare occasions when they have to perform manual calculations.

    I'm not expressing the idea very well. But, yep, after the West suffers its Soft Apocalypse, I can sort of imagine the more thoughtful new Wakandans ruing the disappearance of the Whites whose achievements can no longer be maintained because the intellectual capital to do so no longer exists.
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  204. syonredux says:
    @Steve Sailer
    British enlisted men tended to use the modern f-word vocabulary by either the first or second world war according to novelists who served, but I can't remember which war.

    British enlisted men tended to use the modern f-word vocabulary by either the first or second world war according to novelists who served, but I can’t remember which war.

    The First.

    Robert Graves wrote about how it took him a while to clean-up his vocabulary.

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    • Replies: @Clyde

    Robert Graves wrote about how it took him a while to clean-up his vocabulary.
     
    Robert Graves semi-retired to his Greek Island circa age 70 and walked 8 miles per day to his post office and back. He lived until 90/
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  205. SMK says: • Website
    @ThirdWorldSteveReader
    'course they were black, they all came from Wakanda, where do you think this philosophy s**** came from?

    Anyone disagreeing is wayciss.

    (Seriously, how many times have these edgy Oxbridge hacks pulled this Greeks/Romans/Egyptians/Jesus were black schtick? It's getting boring already)

    What matters with “blacks” is not the “color of their skin” but their low average intelligence, higher levels of testosterone, greater impulsiveness and lack of self-control and discipline as compared to Europeans and “Asians.” If sub-Saharan Africans were white, literally white in skin color rather than dark brown, as compared to Europeans, so-called “whites” who are beige in skin color with pink, yellow, olive, and brown undertones, or light brown if tanned, their behavior and societies and cultures would be the same, essentially, whether In Africa or the U.S. or UK or wherever. They would still be on average far less intelligent than “whites” and “Asians” and far more violent, criminal, impoverished, salacious, etc.

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  206. “Such is the Lampadephoria, or torch-race, of the nations. Greece stretches forth her hand to Italy; Italy consigns the sacred fire to Northern Europe; the people of the North pass on the flame to America, to India, and the Australasian isles.”

    John Addington Symonds, “Renaissance in Italy, Volume 2 (of 7) The Revival of Learning” 1898

    By sowing confusion about the racial provenance of classical civilizations in White space the institutional Left advances one of its most urgent and pressing tasks, to divorce the Anglo-Saxon nations from this most excellent understanding of their place in history, as understood by the great scholars of the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries.

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  207. DFH says:
    @MEH 0910
    http://www.hup.harvard.edu/images/jackets/9780674975552-lg.jpg

    >tfw no statue m8 to point at thots with

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  208. Realist says:
    @Simon Tugmutton
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge%27s_law_of_headlines

    Of course not=No

    Let’s move on.

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  209. DFH says:
    @WorkingClass
    My maternal grand father was Black Irish. I never met him but I knew his two sons. They had pale skin like my potato famine Irish neighbors. But their hair was coal black and wavy and their eyes were dark. Grandpappa's daughters favored their mother from the low country.

    Who are the Black Irish?

    It is speculated that they were Irish/Moors returning to Ireland from Spain.
    Anybody?

    I think that’s just what the native inhabitants of Britain looked like. The Welshest Welsh people look similar.

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    • Replies: @WorkingClass
    Thanks DHF. That's the simplest explanation I've heard. I had no idea what the native inhabitants of Britain looked like.
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  210. syonredux says:
    @Buffalo Joe
    Syon, Hmmmm, that's a statue of David, which is a Biblical story and in this case sculpted by Michelangelo, so no connection to Ancient Greeks.

    Syon, Hmmmm, that’s a statue of David, which is a Biblical story and in this case sculpted by Michelangelo, so no connection to Ancient Greeks.

    That’s pretty funny.

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  211. DFH says:
    @Unzerker

    I am sure if you saw a black Nubian prince bedecked in gold jewelry and exotic furs parading through Rome as a boy
     
    Which Nubian prince would that be?...Oh, you are just making it up.

    The fact that the Romans chose to occupy Britain and not Sudan speaks volumes.

    The Romans saw plenty of Sub-saharans.
     
    I really wonder how many sub-Saharan Africans there were in the Roman empire:

    They didn't sail along the western coast of Africa until the Spanish and Portuguese started doing in around the 14th century AD.
    They hadn't introduced camels in Africa until 3rd century AD to help them cross the thousands of km of desert.
    The Suez canal didn't exist and even if they used a boat to cross the red sea, they still had to traverse 200km of desert
    Even following the Nile down-flow doesn't seem to have been that easy.

    My guess is that they would have been a very rare sight outside of Egypt.

    Herodotus said that the Ethiopians were very tall (makes sense if he heard about Nilotics) but used stone weapons rather than metal

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  212. syonredux says:
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Ok, she may look Greek, but she certainly can't pass for black (e.g. sub-saharan African).

    Wonder whatever happened to Simonetta?

    Michael should've taken her back to US and dumped Kate. Way prettier than Kate (Diane Keaton). Does anyone really consider Diane Keaton to be all that? I mean, she's kinda in the mold of Katherine Hepburn. Very caucasian, but yet not very physically appealing.

    Simonetta would've spiced the story up a bit more as Michael's wife brought back to America. She didn't need to be whacked like that. Supposedly G-1 was one of Saddam Hussein's favorite films.

    Historically speaking, Saddam Hussein could pass for white, correct? Or has Louis Farrakhan claimed him for NOI?

    Michael should’ve taken her back to US and dumped Kate.

    Kay.

    Way prettier than Kate (Diane Keaton). Does anyone really consider Diane Keaton to be all that?

    Peak Keaton was pretty cute:

    Michael should’ve taken her back to US and dumped Kate.

    Ethnic subtext. Michael wants to beat the WASP establishment.

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    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    "Kay."

    Kay, Kate. Really doesn't matter in the long run. As she aborted one of Michael's kids, certainly doesn't look as if he beat the WASP establishment. She whacked someone that Michael really wanted in his life (another child). So she "wins", so to speak. None of that would have happened if he'd brought back Simonetta.

    "Peak Keaton was pretty cute."

    Ew, I just ate lunch. Please. Cute for Hollywood equals goofy weird sidekick, and not Alist. Keaton alongside Christy Brinkley, no comparison. Or Raquel Welch. Cute doesn't get one on the Alist for classic beauties. Simonetta wins, hands down.

    NOTICE: Coppola takes great pains to show the copulation scene between Michael and Simonetta wheras in the NY hotel its hinted at that he did it with Kay/Kate/Miss Cold, Frigid, Prim, and Proper Whitebread who probably wouldn't recognize a real orgasm from chipping her fingernails.

    There's a reason Simonetta and Michael do it for the camera. Earthy, sensual, passionate, wonderful, exciting. All adjectives that neither G-1 nor G-2 ever show Kay/Kate and Michael together. With them its all very prim, proper, etc. Had they stayed together, Michael would've taken a mistress, much like Sonny. Unlike Sonny, Michael would've been more discreet about it, and he would've had a nice earthier Italian girl to get it on with.

    Ah, Simonetta.

    And remember, that's without major makeup either. A little cleaning up and she'd be another Sophia Loren, or Gina Lollabrigida.

    And neither Gina nor Sophia are "cute".


    "Ethnic subtext. Michael wants to beat the WASP establishment."

    And does he? Does he really in the end? A case can be made either way.
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  213. syonredux says:
    @songbird

    “Europe” is a miscategory. Western Eurasia-Med is the proper ecology.

     

    So, if I am reading this right - Taleb doesn't want to be left out.

    “Europe” is a miscategory. Western Eurasia-Med is the proper ecology.

    So, if I am reading this right – Taleb doesn’t want to be left out.

    If the Byzantine Empire had managed to stamp out Islam…..

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  214. syonredux says:
    @Buffalo Joe
    Unze, The Romans used hippos, elephants and crocodiles in their circuses at the Colosseum. So, wouldn't they have brought back black slaves too?

    Unze, The Romans used hippos, elephants and crocodiles in their circuses at the Colosseum. So, wouldn’t they have brought back black slaves too?

    Some. Exotic specimens. Good for showing off.

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  215. syonredux says:
    @Alfred Lindsey
    In the Iliad Homer regularly describes both Menelaus and Agamemnon as blond--or at least, as something that gets translated into English as blond. He similarly describes Athena as grey-eyed. I get the distinct impression that Greeks of Homer's day did not look much like modern Greeks, but rather than looking black, they seem to have looked more like Slavs. Modern Greeks would seem to have rather more in common with the Turks than they would like to admit.

    I get the distinct impression that Greeks of Homer’s day did not look much like modern Greeks, but rather than looking black, they seem to have looked more like Slavs.

    Other way around. Greece received an infusion of Slavic genes during the Middle Ages:

    https://www.unz.com/gnxp/greeks-with-slavic-ancestry-and-without/

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  216. syonredux says:
    @Unzerker
    I don't care about philosophy. It has no use in the real world.
    I had to translate Plato in high school, but it always seemed trite bullshit to me. It was just something the Greeks liked to do to kill the time when they weren't buggering boys.

    Trying to imagine Renaissance art without the influence of the Greeks….
     
    I don't have to. Outside maybe of sculpting, Western-Europe was already ahead of the classical period when it came to art, architecture and technology.

    https://cdn.theculturetrip.com/images/56-3702374-1436538083e2585ec328674fb780c9c966d715ffdf.jpg

    https://cdn.thecrazytourist.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/Beauvais-Cathedral-1024x753.jpg

    I don’t care about philosophy. It has no use in the real world.

    It affects how people understand the world…..

    Trying to imagine Renaissance art without the influence of the Greeks….

    I don’t have to. Outside maybe of sculpting, Western-Europe was already ahead of the classical period when it came to art, architecture and technology.

    Building on Greek achievements….

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diophantus

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archimedes

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euclid

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    • Replies: @Unzerker

    Building on Greek achievements.
     
    No civilization developed in isolation.

    But the Western-European civilization developed after a complete collapse in the 8th-10th century, severing it from the ancient civilization that came before it. It's resemblance to ancient Greeks is mostly on the surface, based on nostalgia (hence the name Renaissance).

    For the ancient Greeks however there is a straight line from the previous middle eastern civilization to them. This is the reason why I consider the (ancient-)Greeks first and foremost an Eastern Mediterranean people.
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  217. @Corn
    According to Wikipedia the Romans sent three expeditions to sub-Saharan Africa, one got as far as the shores of Lake Chad.
    Your average Roman Empire resident probably never saw a black person, and the Romans contact with blacks was probably limited to say the least. But it would seem to me by the Empire era at least Roman soldiers, scholars, traders were aware of the existence of blacks.

    Mary Beard begs to differ.

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  218. @Unzerker
    I'm Dutch and I've learned ancient Greek in school and went there a couple of times. Compared to the Western European countries I had been to it was very very different. I never felt that we NW Europeans and the Greeks had a lot in common. We don't share a history, religion, culture, language or even a writing system.

    It's an Eastern Mediterranean people with an Eastern Mediterranean culture.

    Saw on hbdchick sometime back the suggestion that golden age ancient Greece was preceded by generations of a hajnal like western European nuclear family culture

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  219. Lagertha says:
    @Buffalo Joe
    Syon, Without the color they are what I would call classical sculptures. With the color they look like something you would have found in the décor section of an Ancient Greek Walmart

    Lawn Ornaments. Can’t buy those jockeys anymore, but someone could make some bucks with mini Greek statues…something new besides the ole’ gnomes. Haha, don’t see the Mexican with the donkey & cart anymore, either. Mystical orbs still reign. I was at a frat party decades ago where the pledges had to collect orbs…inside one room, you could hang-out and marvel over the hundreds of orbs…like weird aliens.

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    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    Lagertha, Every now and then a Lawn Jockey shows up at the Flea Market and frequently the face has been repainted white. However, the rarer ones had Negroid facial features.
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  220. syonredux says:
    @Corn
    According to Wikipedia the Romans sent three expeditions to sub-Saharan Africa, one got as far as the shores of Lake Chad.
    Your average Roman Empire resident probably never saw a black person, and the Romans contact with blacks was probably limited to say the least. But it would seem to me by the Empire era at least Roman soldiers, scholars, traders were aware of the existence of blacks.

    The assumption that a majority of the inhabitants of north Africa such as Numidians, Gaetulians, and Moors, were blacks, is also contradicted by the ancient evidence. Classical accounts clearly distinguish between the light-skinned inhabitants of coastal northwest Africa and the darker Ethiopians who lived on the southern fringes of the area. The ancient sources also point to the presence in northwest Africa of mixed black-white types, strongly suggested by names such as Libyoaethiopes (Libyan Ethiopians), Leucoaethiopes (white Ethiopians) and Melanogeatuli (black Gaetulians), a kind of intermediate population, an amalgam of whites and Ethiopians, and by the descriptions of the Garamantes, classified in some classical texts as Ethiopians but distinguished from Ethiopians by others. [15] Classical accounts of the physical features of northwest Africans are amply confirmed by the iconographical evidence. Mosaics, sculpture in the round, and other art objects from northwest Africa depict the inhabitants as predominantly white and portray relatively few blacks

    http://library.howard.edu/content.php?pid=554250

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  221. @Alfred Lindsey
    In the Iliad Homer regularly describes both Menelaus and Agamemnon as blond--or at least, as something that gets translated into English as blond. He similarly describes Athena as grey-eyed. I get the distinct impression that Greeks of Homer's day did not look much like modern Greeks, but rather than looking black, they seem to have looked more like Slavs. Modern Greeks would seem to have rather more in common with the Turks than they would like to admit.

    The northern neighbors of the greeks have generally been fairer, including Alexander who was described as blond, and later invasions of Greek speaking peoples such as the Dorian are said to be fairer as well

    No surprise, as Greek is an indo European language, and Northern invasions have regularly breached the Danube frontier. There were Germans and even Celts in addition to the Slavs, going back to the proto Greek speakers themselves

    Note that classical Greek civilization following the dark age was always an amalgamation with a majority of Mediterraneans; this we can glean from genetics, history, and archeology, and some of the most accomplished cities such as Athens seem to have non indo European names or an otherwise substantial Mediterranean contribution. The Greeks seem to have called the original inhabitants Pelasgians

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  222. EdwardM says:
    @Anonymous
    As with the early Aryans of India, the small penis was considered the ideal and big ones vulgar and uncouth. This appears in the Kama Sutra if memory serves.

    It's interesting to note that in sub-Saharan Africa, some tribes have men with substantially larger than "normal" ones, some don't. But both Dominicans and Haitians are famously bejingled, even though one is a mulatto group with a whiter than average overclass (who are just as huge on average-the famous Porfirio Rubirosa was, if bigger than average, still not particularly noteworthy for size amongst fellow Dominicans, and he was probably much whiter than the average Dominican) and the other is almost pure Congoid.

    Today, while it might not be considered an ideal or even desirable, the one nation with men who are on average on the smaller side, is Japan. Japanese condoms are actually made to a smaller standard size-the machines use a mandrel that is thinner than used anywhere else. Japan is probably the racially purest nation left on the planet as well. So maybe the Greeks and ancient Indians found that the best specimens of men in terms of other qualities besides sexual attraction or performance (and after all, what the women thought was of no import!) tended to be more modestly endowed, and purer, and that's why it became an ideal.

    As with the early Aryans of India, the small penis was considered the ideal and big ones vulgar and uncouth. This appears in the Kama Sutra if memory serves.

    Seems self-serving coming from Indians.

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  223. dearieme says:
    @syonredux

    Jewish monotheism is the consequence of the influence of Persian monotheism on Jewish polytheism.

    Or so some scholars argue.
     
    Shouldn't that be Persian Dualism?


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahura_Mazda

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angra_Mainyu

    “Shouldn’t that be Persian Dualism?” Apparently opinions differ.

    I’ve cooled a bit on WKPD in the last few days after finding what are certainly lies in an entry: whoppers that cannot possibly be accidental or the result of honest misunderstanding.

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    • Replies: @syonredux

    Shouldn’t that be Persian Dualism?” Apparently opinions differ.
     
    Apparently there's some debate about an underlying monotheistic creator (Zurvan) who engenders both of the dueling cosmic forces.....

    I’ve cooled a bit on WKPD in the last few days after finding what are certainly lies in an entry: whoppers that cannot possibly be accidental or the result of honest misunderstanding.
     
    I've spotted a few of those in my time.....
    , @Anonymous

    I’ve cooled a bit on WKPD in the last few days after finding what are certainly lies in an entry: whoppers that cannot possibly be accidental or the result of honest misunderstanding.
     
    Examples?
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  224. Unzerker says:
    @syonredux

    I don’t care about philosophy. It has no use in the real world.
     
    It affects how people understand the world.....

    Trying to imagine Renaissance art without the influence of the Greeks….

    I don’t have to. Outside maybe of sculpting, Western-Europe was already ahead of the classical period when it came to art, architecture and technology.
     
    Building on Greek achievements....


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diophantus

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archimedes


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euclid

    Building on Greek achievements.

    No civilization developed in isolation.

    But the Western-European civilization developed after a complete collapse in the 8th-10th century, severing it from the ancient civilization that came before it. It’s resemblance to ancient Greeks is mostly on the surface, based on nostalgia (hence the name Renaissance).

    For the ancient Greeks however there is a straight line from the previous middle eastern civilization to them. This is the reason why I consider the (ancient-)Greeks first and foremost an Eastern Mediterranean people.

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    • Replies: @syonredux

    But the Western-European civilization developed after a complete collapse in the 8th-10th century, severing it from the ancient civilization that came before it.
     
    Dunno.The collapse was far from complete The Latin alphabet (derived from the Greek) was maintained. Christianity (the fusion of Jewish and Greek thought) was retained. Virgil (who followed in the footsteps of Homer) was retained. The Latin Fathers of the Church (Jerome, Augustine, Ambrose, etc) were retained, and one can readily see the imprint of Hellenic culture in their work.....


    Remove Greece, and Western culture would be unrecognizable.....
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  225. EdwardM says:

    Few issues provoke such controversy as the skin-colour of the ancient Greeks.

    The guy must not get out much.

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  226. @Realist

    Were the Ancient Greeks Black?
     
    Of course not....let's move on.

    Yes. Next question.

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  227. @Buffalo Joe
    Jim, Thank you for the photo. She is one really attractive women, with a classical figure if you remember her nude scene.

    Her upper-body nude scene was left out of the video, heh..She was the tip-top most beautiful chick I ever saw at peak. Thunderbolt-inspiring woman, classic beauty, nothing artificial. They really don’t build them like that anymore.

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  228. JackOH says:
    @Old Palo Altan
    When we have disappeared, we the white race, blond and blue-eyed, or not -
    then the remaining races, in hushed tones, will talk of that fabled time when gods walked the earth.

    OPA, you may be on to something. I’ve noticed very occasionally a phenomenon among people that I can’t quite describe. Something like “unwarranted amazement”, but there’s surely a better term.

    I’ll offer a very trivial, not very good example. I attended a lecture in which the speaker mentioned a historic Ohio house from the 1830s. The house was still standing, at which point many attendees gasped with what I call “unwarranted amazement”. I didn’t understand. I don’t know squat about construction, but it seems a well-constructed, well-maintained building can last a very long time.

    What I think I’m getting at is “knowledge loss” or “memory loss”. I think. There are, I think, plenty of anecdotes about retail clerks who are at sea on those rare occasions when they have to perform manual calculations.

    I’m not expressing the idea very well. But, yep, after the West suffers its Soft Apocalypse, I can sort of imagine the more thoughtful new Wakandans ruing the disappearance of the Whites whose achievements can no longer be maintained because the intellectual capital to do so no longer exists.

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  229. J.Ross says: • Website

    The Greeks had a clear and consistent self-image which applied to every Greek from distant colonies to the major city-states, defined both positively in institutions, skill sets, and values, and negatively against the images of “barbarians” (who, as Tyrrell lays out in his book on the Amazon myth, were often thought of as “anti-Greeks,” or bizarro caricatures who do whatever is the opposite of what we do, eg, forage instead of farm). This is the seed of what came to be the concept of cultural whiteness. Medieval knights were broadly imitating Iliad characters by way of Byzantium. Greek was the language of education in empires Roman and Enlightened because Europeans Europe-wide were recognizing and embracing Greek practices. In fact, the existentially important contrast with inferior foreigners is right there at the beginning — it’s not just whiteness, it’s the really offensive sort of whiteness.

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    • Replies: @Chrisnonymous

    it’s not just whiteness, it’s the really offensive sort of whiteness.
     
    Are you white?
    No, sir. I am really offensively white!
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  230. @songbird
    One of the odder behaviors of the Left more recently, IMO, is the naked attempt by some to split Greeks off from other Europeans. To pretend that it was Northern Euros who had their boot on Greek necks and not the Turks.

    Somehow, I don't think making Achilles black will convince Greeks to join the coalition.

    Neither Greeks nor Armenians seem to have much illusion about the nature and intentions of the Turks, or Muslims more generally. Nor should we.

    Turkey would love to “finish the job” against the Armenians and against the Greeks in Cyprus and what is left of Greece — and they would have done so already if not for the protective presence of nominally Christian Russia nearby. Turkey’s little brother Azerbaijan would be glad to help.

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    • Replies: @Cato
    Evidence?
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  231. The Greeks didn’t have modern ideas of race.

    Next they’ll be telling us that the Greeks didn’t have modern ideas of science.

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  232. @Tiny Duck
    I would assume that most ancient peoples were Black or at least of Color

    It would make the most sense

    white skin is terrorism

    https://nirnewrites.com/2017/01/09/bathe-me-in-milk/

    Tiny Dick, were you sleeping in art class as well as history and English?

    BLACK is not a color; it is the absence of color.

    WHITE, on the other hand, IS a color.

    So your beloved “people of color” cannot refer to black/African people.

    As an actual Person of Color, i.e. a Person of Whiteness, I take umbrage, sir, and demand groveling apologies. You know, “a conversation about race.”

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    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    Radical, How about a "Beer Summit" with TD.
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  233. @syonredux

    As for Richard Burton “passing”, when my very, very, very Swamp Yankee White cousin was doing research in Uttar Pradesh all the Indians assumed he was Afghan.
     
    Robert E Howard wrote a series of stories about an early 20th century American adventurer named Kirby O'Donnell who operated in the Middle East. He usually posed as a Kurd, noting that his blue eyes posed no risk, as light eyes were not uncommon in the highlands.


    http://contest.afghanistanmatters.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/AFGHAN-PEOPLE-3355S-002.JPG

    Sad to see anyone, but even more so such obviously kindred peoples, living under the cruel Arab-derived idiocy known as islam.

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  234. @snorlax
    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b1/A_Pair_of_Broad_Bottoms.jpg

    Baby Got Back. “Yo, Cosmo thinks you’re fat? Tell ‘im I like it like that.” — Lord-Mix-A-Lot

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  235. @anony-mouse
    The Ancient Greeks were racist against the Barbarians. Or maybe their stereotypes about Barbarians were accurate. I've been told repeatedly here that there's a lot of accuracy about stereotypes.

    Any so-called stereotype is based on reality.

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  236. Yak-15 says:
    @Yak-15
    Everything, everywhere, always and forever is the product of Africans.

    This one is really too stupid and easily disproven to really address.

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  237. JoelsBlog says: • Website

    They were never blacks

    JoelsBlog

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  238. @songbird
    I knew a lot of Greeks and Greek-Americans when growing up in the US. I don't know if they were representative or not, but most seemed pretty European compared to various non-European ethnicities, and I don't mean just in appearance. Some were fairly intelligent. Some were even conservative - this is, in general, a pretty hard group to find among non-Europeans.

    They were all Christian. I attended a wedding in a Greek Orthodox church, and, I don't know how representative it was, but it made me feel the Catholic Church is pozzed. TBH, I consider myself fairly ecumenical, but my impression of most NW European churches today is one of some weird sort of paganism. I had a Greek teacher once, and she would always remind people that the Bible was written in Greek before it was written in Latin.

    I've heard tales of illiterate Gaelic bards in Ireland telling the story of Iliad and the Odyssey up into the early 20th century. I'm not sure how long they knew it before. The US certainly has a certain heritage in Greece, architecturally and politically. Greek is in the same language family - of course the counter would be so is Hindi.

    Don't get me wrong: there seem to be real differences on the national level. Greece is a basket case, economically and politically. Not that one could be proud of NW Europe these days either. I've wondered quite a bit about how Greeks and Turks differ in Germany, as far as welfare dependency, etc. In the US, they seem to do well economically. I see Greece and Greeks as in the Southern cline of Europe. Perhaps, not interchangeable, but qualitatively better and less hostile than many others.

    Agreed. I’d gladly trade ten million of “our” Africans, Arabs, Mexicans, Chinese, whatever, in return for the entire Greek population of Greece settling here in the USA instead.

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    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    Rad, Years ago when I was still Ironworking, the Greeks had the market cornered on structural steel and bridge painting, Hardworking and honest contractors who often owned a restaurant or diner too. Their crews were almost always 100% Greek.
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  239. @Alfred Lindsey
    In the Iliad Homer regularly describes both Menelaus and Agamemnon as blond--or at least, as something that gets translated into English as blond. He similarly describes Athena as grey-eyed. I get the distinct impression that Greeks of Homer's day did not look much like modern Greeks, but rather than looking black, they seem to have looked more like Slavs. Modern Greeks would seem to have rather more in common with the Turks than they would like to admit.

    Do “Greeks” often have a substantial Turkish genetic component (which Italians do not have) due to centuries of domination by the Ottoman Empire? I don’t know, just asking if someone here knows.

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  240. Anonymous[270] • Disclaimer says:
    @syonredux

    I am standing next to the Bosphorus. The other side is Asia. So if the BBC wanted to do a Mary Beard style historical film, shd they cat pple from Stockholm for this side & pple from Tokyo on the other?
     
    https://twitter.com/nntaleb/status/994202761884454912

    Poor insecure Taleb’s desperately wants to be counted as European. “Phoenician” is just not good enough for him.

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  241. Corn says:
    @WorkingClass
    My maternal grand father was Black Irish. I never met him but I knew his two sons. They had pale skin like my potato famine Irish neighbors. But their hair was coal black and wavy and their eyes were dark. Grandpappa's daughters favored their mother from the low country.

    Who are the Black Irish?

    It is speculated that they were Irish/Moors returning to Ireland from Spain.
    Anybody?

    “Who are the Black Irish?

    It is speculated that they were Irish/Moors returning to Ireland from Spain.
    Anybody?”

    My paternal grandma was an Irish immigrant. According to my late father his mom told him we were black Irish because black and dark brown hair were rife in our family, along with some brown eyes. The story went when the Spanish Armada was attacked, burned and scattered some shipwrecked Spanish sailors and damaged Spanish ships washed up on Irish shores where the Spaniards mingled and coupled with Irish women.

    This doesn’t seem to be true. One needn’t have outside genes to be Irish and dark haired, and it’s my understanding both genealogists and geneticists have debunked that Black Irish story. But it seems ineradicable from Irish-American lore.

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    • Replies: @WorkingClass
    Thanks Corn. Folk lore. Of course. I got it from my mother also but without the ship wreck story. She just told me why my uncles were called black Irish and pointed out that she and her sister took after their Dutch mother.
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  242. songbird says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    During the 20th century, theory speculated that some of the people of Liqian may be descended from Ancient Romans. In the 1940s, Homer H. Dubs, a professor of Chinese history at the University of Oxford, suggested that the people of Liqian were descended from Roman legionaries taken prisoner at the Battle of Carrhae. These prisoners, Dubs proposed, were resettled by the victorious Parthians on their eastern border and may have fought as mercenaries at the Battle of Zhizhi, between the Chinese and the Xiongnu in 36 BC. Chinese chroniclers mention the use of a "fish-scale formation" of soldiers, which Dubs believed referred to the testudo formation – a Roman phalanx surrounded by shields on all sides.
     

    My understanding is that the DNA doesn’t pan out.

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  243. Well, he was outside fighting a war for ten years, then sailing around for ten years, so, yeah, I imagine Odysseus was pretty tanned.

    Classic, sardonic Steve Sailer. I don’t even think there is any snarky or even sardonic intent. It’s a kind of very genuine and earnest way of saying, “Well, why don’t we stop and just use our brains to think about it for only a moment…” that leads to obvious answers to the questions modern pundits seem baffled by. It’s a damned crime who pass for big shot writers, thinkers, and so on and people like Mrrs. Sailer and Derbyshire who toil in relative obscurity.

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    • Replies: @Chrisnonymous
    I appreciate Steve, but in this case he is wrong. The question is not whether Odysseus was negroid or tanned, but whether these categories are adequate ways to translate the Greek into English. The author makes a perfectly good case that they aren't. Odysseus' "blackness" refers to his character rather than his skin. This is coming from the internal evidence of the literature, but what's really interesting is that (as Peter Frost shows in the blog post I linked way up at the top of this thread), the Ancient Greek use of color schemes is similar to "natural", "pre-historic", or "evolution-based" use.
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  244. Clyde says:
    @syonredux

    British enlisted men tended to use the modern f-word vocabulary by either the first or second world war according to novelists who served, but I can’t remember which war.
     
    The First.

    Robert Graves wrote about how it took him a while to clean-up his vocabulary.

    Robert Graves wrote about how it took him a while to clean-up his vocabulary.

    Robert Graves semi-retired to his Greek Island circa age 70 and walked 8 miles per day to his post office and back. He lived until 90/

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  245. MEH 0910 says:

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  246. Garlic says:

    Of course the ancient Greeks were black!

    That’s why their greatest poet was named Homey!

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    • LOL: Jim Don Bob
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  247. Thomm says:

    the word “black” meant something different to Englishmen in the 1890s than to Americans in the 1990s: practically everybody south of Dover was said to be more or less “black.” Just look at their hair color!

    But the Afrocentrists didn’t know that. On the other hand, it seemed pretty enterprising of Afrocentrists to read old books, even if they were misinterpreting them.

    Similarly, before American racial culture ideas took over the world, the English would even have talked of “black Irish.”

    Thanks for this. I have had to school Ron Unz more than once about this. He had no awareness of this aspect of American history.

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  248. @Difference maker
    I'm not sure they cared that much about glass. Chinese steel was also looked upon favorably by the Romans

    I am sure they would have cared a great deal about glass; it is useful as all Hell to anyone with half a brain. Did the Amerindians not care about guns just because they generally stole them or traded for them rather than becoming gunsmiths themselves? Of course not. The idea anyone without glass, when shown it, would be utterly uninterested is disingenuous to the point of stupidity.

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    • Replies: @Melendwyr

    I am sure they would have cared a great deal about glass; it is useful as all Hell to anyone with half a brain.
     
    A la The Gods Must Be Crazy. It's not a documentary, but is still a pretty accurate representation of how a Bushman tribe would respond to the accidental find of a glass soda bottle.
    , @Difference Maker
    At Roman levels of technology glass is but another ceramic. So no, not very interesting
    , @Difference Maker
    Calm yourself, Roman glass is not the glass you are excited about. Even today we can debate the merits of glassware vs ceramic, and we have Pyrex.

    Optics took about a thousand years to develop. Are you calling Westerners stupid

    , @istevefan
    Here is a scene from the Outlaw Josey Wales in which Wale's Cherokee friend displays an interest in transparent items.
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  249. @Buffalo Joe
    Syon, Hmmmm, that's a statue of David, which is a Biblical story and in this case sculpted by Michelangelo, so no connection to Ancient Greeks.

    Statue-making is not very Hebrew, but was big in Greece. The Romans learned it from the Greeks, and the Renaissance Italians made their own masterpieces inspired on the old originals.

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    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    TWSR, I am going out on a limb here, but there seems to be no Hebrew sculpture left from antiquity nor are there any structures, including temples. The Wailing Wall is all I can think of and Old Jerusalem but that is hardly architecturally splendid.
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  250. @Unzerker
    I'm Dutch and I've learned ancient Greek in school and went there a couple of times. Compared to the Western European countries I had been to it was very very different. I never felt that we NW Europeans and the Greeks had a lot in common. We don't share a history, religion, culture, language or even a writing system.

    It's an Eastern Mediterranean people with an Eastern Mediterranean culture.

    Could you tell us a bit more? You think Greeks are different from the people of which other countries you know? And would you say they cluster together with which populations?

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    • Replies: @Fredrik
    He's implying that Greeks are more similar to eg. Turks than to Italians or Germans. Basically it's questionable if Greeks are European in a cultural sense. I tend to support this view and you don't have to tell me it's a tragedy.
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  251. @Stan d Mute

    Sounds like somebody hasn’t been paying attention to DNA science since Bill Clinton’s 2000 Rose Garden speech on how cataloging one genome somehow proved that race didn’t exist.
     
    I mainly see the standard boilerplate conflating of “skin color” with “race” and the subsequent bashing of his idiotic straw man conflation. This is my primary objection to usage of “black” to describe Sub-Saharan Africans. Their color is irrelevant. All the words used historically and now considered pejorative by the PC/SJWs only became pejorative due to their association with the behavioral characteristics of the population in question. Now they impugn more benign dark pigmented peoples by association on color spectrum alone.

    Negro. Amerindian. Hindoo. Oriental.

    These sort of term are much more meaningful than black, Indian, Asian – and certainly more useful than the shorthand of colours – white, yellow (for Filipinos and alabaster Japanese or Koreans, c’mon!), red, etc.

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  252. Tony says:

    Here’s a history lesson for you:

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  253. syonredux says:
    @Buffalo Joe
    Syon, Hmmmm, that's a statue of David, which is a Biblical story and in this case sculpted by Michelangelo, so no connection to Ancient Greeks.

    Syon, Hmmmm, that’s a statue of David, which is a Biblical story and in this case sculpted by Michelangelo, so no connection to Ancient Greeks.

    Actually, that’s more than funny. It’s top-notch satire. Kudos!

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  254. Anonymous[121] • Disclaimer says:

    Someone can do an Ebonics version of The Iliad.

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  255. ‘But the Afrocentrists didn’t know that. On the other hand, it seemed pretty enterprising of Afrocentrists to read old books, even if they were misinterpreting them’

    Indeed. As the old trope goes some groups of people just dont read

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  256. @Chrisnonymous
    Regarding "black-skinned Odysseus", Peter Frost's recent post on conceptions of skin pigmentation in pre-modern times is interesting...
    http://evoandproud.blogspot.jp/2018/04/the-original-meaning-of-skin-color.html

    If Frost's telling is correct, "black-skinned" could be interpreted as suggesting a threatening nature. Clever=devious=threatening?

    I’ve just gotten around to reading the Aeon article through. I re-recommend Peter Frost’s article (linked above), which dovetails nicely with the Aeon author’s discussion of the meaning of color in ancient Greek.

    The Aeon article is not so awful. Contra Taleb (who probably didn’t read the article), the article gives DNA its due place in the discussion. And contra Steve, the article is almost certainly correct that “black-skinned” Odysseus doesn’t mean “tanned”. The main objection to be made is the article’s anti-white politics. The article’s discussion of the previous Forbes controversy says essentially, “anyone who objected to be defamed by the Forbes articles should have just rolled over and taken it.” The article then goes on to insist that color descriptions in Greek don’t map onto our concepts of color vocabulary while suggesting at the same time that the Greeks didn’t think of themselves as “white”. This is at the same time a meaningless tautology and dissembling.

    One interesting he points to is the possibility that Odysseus is described as having blue hair:

    In the Odyssey, Athena is said to enhance Odysseus’ appearance magically: ‘He became black-skinned (melagkhroiēs) again, and the hairs became blue (kuaneai) around his chin.’ On two other occasions when she beautifies him, she is said to make his hair ‘woolly, similar in colour to the hyacinth flower’. Now, translating kuaneos (the root of the English ‘cyan’) as ‘blue’, as I have done here, is at first sight a bit silly: most translators take the word to mean ‘dark’. But given the usual colour of hyacinths, maybe – just maybe – he did have blue hair after all?

    Although this seems very strange to us, there is the phenomenon of Japanese animation characters having completely unnatural and not-true-to-life color schemes. I myself am not interested in this subculture and have never understood the motivation behind the color schemes, but there it is. Maybe Greek literature inhabited something of the same place in the Greek mind as Japanese animation inhabits in the minds of those who like it.

    On the hand, when we see re-constructions of colorized Greek art based on the remains of paint found on the originals, we don’t see characters with wildly untrue-to-life color schemes.

    And these artistic reconstructions reflect on one other point in the article as well:

    The upshot is that we can be pretty confident that ancient Greeks were similar in genotype and phenotype to modern Greeks. There are, however, some qualifications: Greeks of the Bronze Age are likely to have had darker skin, eyes and hair.

    By and large, then, ancient Greeks probably looked generally like darker versions of modern Greeks

    As Razib has noted in commenting on the “black-skinned-blue-eyed Brit”, we need to take extrapolations of skin color from DNA analysis with a grain of salt because we aren’t sure about the totality of genetic contribution to skin tone.

    When I looked at Greek art, I see 2 patterns. One is portraying men as “black”, which fits into the black-male/white-female dichotomy described by Peter Frost as having roots in evolution. The other is portraying people with rather peachy hues like we would expect to see in the portrayal of generic “white people”–what we are apt to call, quite naturally, flesh tones.

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    • Replies: @syonredux

    And contra Steve, the article is almost certainly correct that “black-skinned” Odysseus doesn’t mean “tanned”.
     
    Dunno. Classicists that I know favor that interpretation....

    One interesting he points to is the possibility that Odysseus is described as having blue hair:

    In the Odyssey, Athena is said to enhance Odysseus’ appearance magically: ‘He became black-skinned (melagkhroiēs) again, and the hairs became blue (kuaneai) around his chin.’ On two other occasions when she beautifies him, she is said to make his hair ‘woolly, similar in colour to the hyacinth flower’. Now, translating kuaneos (the root of the English ‘cyan’) as ‘blue’, as I have done here, is at first sight a bit silly: most translators take the word to mean ‘dark’. But given the usual colour of hyacinths, maybe – just maybe – he did have blue hair after all?

    Although this seems very strange to us, there is the phenomenon of Japanese animation characters having completely unnatural and not-true-to-life color schemes. I myself am not interested in this subculture and have never understood the motivation behind the color schemes, but there it is. Maybe Greek literature inhabited something of the same place in the Greek mind as Japanese animation inhabits in the minds of those who like it.
     
    Blue for black is a fairly common thing. I noted upthread that English has a term ("blue-black") for really dark hair....And the ancient Norse often used blue for black....
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  257. HA says:
    @j
    A more interesting issue is why Greek statues have very small penises? They were also very short. And what about their horses that look like ponies?

    A more interesting issue is why Greek statues have very small penises?

    Greeks associated small and non-erect penises with moderation, which was one of the key virtues that formed their view of ideal masculinity,” explains classics professor Andrew Lear…“There is the contrast between the small, non-erect penises of ideal men (heroes, gods, nude athletes etc) and the over-size, erect penises of Satyrs (mythic half-goat-men, who are drunkards and wildly lustful).”

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  258. IvyMike says:

    Black, white, whatever, does Achilles finally get to bang Patroclus in a movie?

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    • Replies: @OFWHAP
    We get a little three-way between black Achilles, black Patroklus, and white Briseus!
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  259. @Anatoly Karlin

    Back in the 1990s, when Afrocentrist theories about who built the pyramids were popular, African-American Afrocentrists on Usenet would often cite old books written by Oxford professors around 1890 that would refer in passing to ancient Egyptians as “black.” This was confusion — the word “black” meant something different to Englishmen in the 1890s than to Americans in the 1990s: practically everybody south of Dover was said to be more or less “black.” Just look at their hair color!
     
    Presumably a function of there being next to no Negroes in England during the 1890s.

    For instance, "blacks" in Russia typically refers to Caucasians (peoples from the Caucasian mountains) because of their relative swarthiness. There are some liberal SJW faggots trying to change definitions and make negry into blacks but fortunately they remain marginal losers so far.

    Anatoly, you’re of course correct about how many Russians heuristically categorize folks from “other,” especially Caucasian places. It’s weird — as an American — to hear Russians refer to dark-eyed brunettes referred to as “blacks” in Russia. O, Lermontov!

    And yet, one sees illegal immigrants from sub-Saharan Africa hanging about Metro exits, handing out advertisements, etc.

    Экстра бонус, блин:

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    • Replies: @Jefferson
    "It’s weird — as an American — to hear Russians refer to dark-eyed brunettes referred to as “blacks” in Russia. O, Lermontov!"

    In The U.S we don't even refer to people from India as Black, let alone dark eyed White people with black hair or dark brown hair.

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  260. Michelle says:

    Jennifer Anniston is half Greek. I grew up near a Greek Orthodox Church and had quite a few Greek American classmates. A good looking people. When I had a DNA test I was matched to a few Greek, Turkish, Iranian, Armenian and even Egyptian Christian relatives. Razib Khan told me that these relatives and I were related from the Byzantine era. Crazy!!!

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  261. @Pat Boyle
    No one seems to have mentioned "Boston Blackie". He was in the books and films a character who was what used to be called Black Irish. Chester Morris who played Blackie had the look - pale white skin and coal black hair. Sometimes Sean Connery is called Black Irish, although he is of course Scottish not Irish. But Ireland once invaded Scotland just as Scotland has invaded Ireland on occasion. The story I heard as a lad was that the Black Irish were from an invasion from Spain. With a good boat it's a straight shot north west from the Iberian peninsula. Supposedly the Spaniards carried some Moorish blood with them.

    I don't know if any of this is true but that's what my Irish descended relatives said.

    The latest theory of the Irish in light of the whole genome revolution of Reich, Paabo et al
    is that the aboriginal Irish were more or less Sardinians until the invasion by the steppe people from the Ukraine. So we had our own Aryan Invasion.

    I used to supervise a lot of Ukrainian programmers imported under H-1B visas. They didn't look like the Irish to me.

    The Spanish are always after yer lucky charms!

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  262. Were the Ancient Greeks Black?

    Alternatively, were the Ancient Blacks Greek?

    Or did they just engage in it?

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  263. Neoconned says:

    WE WUZ KANGZ!!

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  264. Lurker says:
    @Eric Ruttencutter
    My Greek grandfather who got ethnically cleansed from Asia Minor in the 1920’s said when he was a kid, the other kids teased him by calling him Blondie. I, however, have dark brown hair and brown eyes, like my Greek grandmother who grew up in Egypt

    Ah yes the ethnic cleansing of whites from Turkey by brown Muslims (peace be upon them). Something we don’t hear much about in the current year. For some mysterious reason.

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  265. Anon[374] • Disclaimer says:
    @I, commenter

    considered marble to be a sort of cheap substrate to be painted over
     
    It is a soft stone which makes it optimal for carving.


    On another note, like Egyptians who have slowly become black, or Alexander Hamilton, the truth does not matter to the progressive left. They just keep winning at this stuff. A decade ago the only 'nation of immigrant's argument they would use would be in America or Canada, now they are using it in the UK and Europe. "Oh we've always been multicultural, what's the big deal'.

    Why are we so bad at coming up with counternarratives?

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  266. patrick says:
    @DFH
    Lol @ the self-hating Arab's attempt to hijack European culture because of his people's lack of their own accomplishments

    Phoenicians (the actual ancestors of Lebanese like Taleb) accomplished a lot long before Northern Europe had any civilized societies. Who exactly developed the alphabet and founded the first cities in Western Europe (Cadiz, Seville)? I’ll give you a hint. It wasn’t the British or Germans.
    Taleb overdoes it, but he has a point sometimes. The Pre-Islamic Near East and the Greco-Roman world were closely intertwined and often overlapped. Even now, long after the rise of Islam and the fall of Byzantium, I think most Greeks and Sicilians would feel more in common with, say, Lebanese Christians or Armenians than with Danes or Dutch.

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  267. Anonymous[326] • Disclaimer says:
    @MEH 0910
    http://www.hup.harvard.edu/images/jackets/9780674975552-lg.jpg

    This is homophobic! OUTRAGE!
    They have very “cleverly” positioned Pythian Apollo so that he is “slaying” the bro’s “serpent”.
    They probably had several meeting where they discussed this in depth, and had some laughs about how this would really put one over on the enemy.
    But if the bro is really gay and likes that sort of thing, shouldn’t the young lady on the left embrace him and encourage him to accept his true self? Why are we being encouraged to mock his self-hatred?
    DONNA MUST APOLOGIZE!

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  268. Anonymous[202] • Disclaimer says:
    @Steve Sailer
    British enlisted men tended to use the modern f-word vocabulary by either the first or second world war according to novelists who served, but I can't remember which war.
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  269. @Hannah Katz
    When you consider that dark hair, eyes and complexion are all dominant, as compared to recessive, then as we move forward in time, the population is gradually darkening. Thus as we go back in time, the opposite would be the case. King David of Israel was described as ruddy, for example. Same with King Tut of Egypt. The ancient Greeks would have been pretty Aryan looking, at least until they were conquered and mixed by those blasted taffy yanking Turks. Note that Greek achievements have really dropped off over the last few hundred years, too.

    When you consider that dark hair, eyes and complexion are all dominant, as compared to recessive

    This isn’t true, and looking around at actual family histories shows it isn’t.

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  270. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Ok, she may look Greek, but she certainly can't pass for black (e.g. sub-saharan African).

    Wonder whatever happened to Simonetta?

    Michael should've taken her back to US and dumped Kate. Way prettier than Kate (Diane Keaton). Does anyone really consider Diane Keaton to be all that? I mean, she's kinda in the mold of Katherine Hepburn. Very caucasian, but yet not very physically appealing.

    Simonetta would've spiced the story up a bit more as Michael's wife brought back to America. She didn't need to be whacked like that. Supposedly G-1 was one of Saddam Hussein's favorite films.

    Historically speaking, Saddam Hussein could pass for white, correct? Or has Louis Farrakhan claimed him for NOI?

    Historically speaking, Saddam Hussein could pass for white, correct?

    A lot of pictures of the young Saddam make him look vaguely high yeller.

    His clansman and subordinate, Izzat Ibrahim al-Duri, of course, famously, looked like a Scotsman.

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    • Replies: @Jim Christian
    His guy Tariq Aziz was a Christian Lebanese, too. Aziz was his mouthpiece to the West.
    , @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    He looks like Cab Calloway's twin, ca. 1930.
    , @Clyde
    Saddam would have fit in great playing at The Cotton Club.
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  271. Logan says:
    @Unzerker

    I am sure if you saw a black Nubian prince bedecked in gold jewelry and exotic furs parading through Rome as a boy
     
    Which Nubian prince would that be?...Oh, you are just making it up.

    The fact that the Romans chose to occupy Britain and not Sudan speaks volumes.

    The Romans saw plenty of Sub-saharans.
     
    I really wonder how many sub-Saharan Africans there were in the Roman empire:

    They didn't sail along the western coast of Africa until the Spanish and Portuguese started doing in around the 14th century AD.
    They hadn't introduced camels in Africa until 3rd century AD to help them cross the thousands of km of desert.
    The Suez canal didn't exist and even if they used a boat to cross the red sea, they still had to traverse 200km of desert
    Even following the Nile down-flow doesn't seem to have been that easy.

    My guess is that they would have been a very rare sight outside of Egypt.

    FWIW a “Suez Canal” existed in ancient Egypt at various periods over perhaps as much as 2000 years. It went in and out of use based primarily on political/ social factors, but was in use as late as the early Muslim period.

    factors.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canal_of_the_Pharaohs

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  272. @Eric Ruttencutter
    My Greek grandfather who got ethnically cleansed from Asia Minor in the 1920’s said when he was a kid, the other kids teased him by calling him Blondie. I, however, have dark brown hair and brown eyes, like my Greek grandmother who grew up in Egypt

    The Pontic Greeks I’ve seen in Thessaloniki are a shade darker than the average Greek. Also more stocky, with bigger noses. I think there is a bit of Turk, Russian & Middle Eastern in them. As well as a fair bit of Georgian/Armenian Caucasian. The Georgian/Armenian part is interesting because the Indo-European expansion missed out on that area:

    Various opinions here: https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?42665-Pontic-Greeks(Hellenes-of-Northern-Anatolia)

    One person says, “the only real/strong stereotype is about their IQ.” Not sure what they mean by that. Maybe they mean they are like simple country people.

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  273. @PiltdownMan

    Historically speaking, Saddam Hussein could pass for white, correct?
     
    A lot of pictures of the young Saddam make him look vaguely high yeller.

    https://i2.wp.com/upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b9/Saddam_Hussain_1980.jpg/396px-Saddam_Hussain_1980.jpg

    https://assemble.me/uploads/websites/1969/images/58371c25bd3ed.png

    His clansman and subordinate, Izzat Ibrahim al-Duri, of course, famously, looked like a Scotsman.

    http://www.ensonhaber.com/resimler/diger/el-duri_3656.jpg

    His guy Tariq Aziz was a Christian Lebanese, too. Aziz was his mouthpiece to the West.

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  274. @Unzerker
    I'm Dutch and I've learned ancient Greek in school and went there a couple of times. Compared to the Western European countries I had been to it was very very different. I never felt that we NW Europeans and the Greeks had a lot in common. We don't share a history, religion, culture, language or even a writing system.

    It's an Eastern Mediterranean people with an Eastern Mediterranean culture.

    I’m American, and while I feel more at home in Paris than Athens, both are categorically more “at home” than Istanbul.

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  275. @Hannah Katz
    When you consider that dark hair, eyes and complexion are all dominant, as compared to recessive, then as we move forward in time, the population is gradually darkening. Thus as we go back in time, the opposite would be the case. King David of Israel was described as ruddy, for example. Same with King Tut of Egypt. The ancient Greeks would have been pretty Aryan looking, at least until they were conquered and mixed by those blasted taffy yanking Turks. Note that Greek achievements have really dropped off over the last few hundred years, too.

    A better approach would be to stop parroting German-Nordic supremacist ideas and look as foolish as those black-Athena-loving afrocentrists. It’s sad that, although it’s not that hard to notice how similar Ancient Greek statues and (good looking) modern Greeks look like, and despite all the new ancient DNA evidence that’s available today, people keep clinging to their preconceptions.

    No matter what you may believe, we’re still here, and we’re still pretty much the same people. Deal with it.

    http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/08/greeks-really-do-have-near-mythical-origins-ancient-dna-reveals

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  276. Randal says:
    @foolisholdman
    Hadrian (of the Wall) before he became Emperor, was the commander of the Romans stationed on the western side of the Great Wall of China. As far as I am aware, he never went through it, but it is thought that it was the inspiration for his wall across Britain to keep the Scotts and Picts out.

    Needham, in his book on Science & Civilization in China mentions a valley in western China that is inhabited by the descendants of a captured Roman legion and the Chinese women that they had widowed before they were captured.

    Hadrian (of the Wall) before he became Emperor, was the commander of the Romans stationed on the western side of the Great Wall of China.

    ! Is this a joke?

    I’m sure the Parthians would have had something to say about that, not to mention the Kushans who were the second of the two substantial empires and 2-3000 miles that separated Rome and China at that time.

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  277. A Greek guy I know said that all Greeks were blonde until they were conquered by the Turks.

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    How would he know?
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  278. BenKenobi says:
    @Truth

    As with the early Aryans of India, the small penis was considered the ideal and big ones vulgar and uncouth. This appears in the Kama Sutra if memory serves.

     

    Well it has to be nice to know that somewhere, at some point in time, you were once part of the "in" crowd; Old Sport.

    • Savage: BenKenobi

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    • Replies: @Chrisnonymous
    I think he meant the "almost-in crowd"...
    , @Yngvar

    • Savage:
     
    Clever.
    However, I believe any violation of commenting functions must lead to an immediate ban. Mr. Unz, your thoughts?
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  279. Sounds like somebody hasn’t been paying attention to DNA science since Bill Clinton’s 2000 Rose Garden speech on how cataloging one genome somehow proved that race didn’t exist.

    But the same people use DNA to prove that many white supremacists have African racial ancestry. http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/78275433-157.html

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  280. Randal says:
    @AndrewR
    I stopped watching Peaky Blinders immediately after an angry character said "get your fucking hands off me!" I'm 99.9999% sure that an enraged Englishman in that era would have said "bloody," which, back then, was arguably more taboo than "fucking" is now, in our degenerate era. Wiktionary doesn't have much on "fucking" as an intensifier, but I imagine it is an Americanism only quite recently adopted into the British vocabulary. In any event, "bloody" really was a taboo word then.

    Presumably the writers/producers/director all thought that saying "bloody" would sound too tame to their linguistically/historically ignorant audience to whom "bloody" sounds quaint and utterly unoffensive. Or even worse, perhaps the people involved in the show are that ignorant themselves. But "fucking" certainly struck me as a bizarre anachronism. That sort of terrible anachronistic writing invariably ruins productions for me.

    From the wikipedia article on "bloody":

    After about 1750 the word assumed more profane connotations. Johnson (1755) already calls it "very vulgar", and the original Oxford English Dictionary article of 1888 comments the word is "now constantly in the mouths of the lowest classes, but by respectable people considered 'a horrid word', on par with obscene or profane language."

    On the opening night of George Bernard Shaw's comedy Pygmalion in 1914, Mrs Patrick Campbell, in the role of Eliza Doolittle, created a sensation with the line "Walk! Not bloody likely!" and this led to a fad for using "Pygmalion" itself as a pseudo-oath, as in "Not Pygmalion likely",[5][6] and bloody was referred to as "the Shavian adjective" in polite society.

    The character Geoffrey Fisher in Keith Waterhouse's play Billy Liar (1959) is notable for his continual use of the word 'bloody'. Waterhouse's stage directions make it clear that if this is considered offensive the word should be omitted entirely and not bowdlerised to ruddy or some other word.

    The use of 'bloody' in adult UK broadcasting aroused controversy in the 1960s and 1970s, but it has since become mild expletive and is used more freely
     

    .

    this led to a fad for using “Pygmalion” itself as a pseudo-oath, as in “Not Pygmalion likely”

    That’s interesting, because I can recall some people in the late C20th using the euphemism “pigging”, as in “not pigging likely”, which I had always assumed was just related to the animal, but that gives a much more plausible derivation.

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    • Replies: @YetAnotherAnon
    "I can recall some people in the late C20th using the euphemism “pigging”, as in “not pigging likely”"

    I remember that, and seem to recall "pigging" was invented by scriptwriters and used on TV in the 60s and 70s as a kind of verbal placeholder for the f-word, and then used by some people who copy what they hear on TV. Now TV just goes straight to the f-word, at least after 9 pm.

    The f-word was definitely in use in WWI - one fiction book on the conflict mentions General Von Kluck as being "the subject of so many admirable rhymes"!

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_von_Kluck#In_popular_culture
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  281. Randal says:
    @Corn
    Supposedly some of the writers for Deadwood took the time to research 1870-80s vernacular and came to believe that the curses and profanities of the time would sound too ridiculous to modern ears, so they substituted modern swears.

    One writer said something to the effect, “if we kept the profanity true to the times the actors would sound like live action Yosemite Sams”.

    One writer said something to the effect, “if we kept the profanity true to the times the actors would sound like live action Yosemite Sams”.

    For me, such decisions are what make the difference between drama of informative and educational substance, and superficial tripe. Clearly, the Deadwood writers chose the tripe route.

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    Clearly, the Deadwood writers chose the tripe route.
     
    Yeah, dialogue where every other word is f- this and f-that is weak writing. Right up there with dream sequences. Tried to watch Deadwood. Couldn't.
    , @Peter Akuleyev
    For me, such decisions are what make the difference between drama of informative and educational substance, and superficial tripe.

    Bully for you. Presumably you also only enjoy dramas set in the Middle Ages if the actors stay true to Chaucerian middle English, and you find Shakespeare's Julius Caesar stupid for not having been written in the conversational Latin of 44 BC.

    Languages change, often very quickly, and if you want to tell a story about a different era you generally have to translate.
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  282. anonomy says:

    I don’t think the Jews are Hebrews, but really just Arabs, closer to Muslims than Hebrews, who culturally appropriated someone else’s religion and land. Jesus who was European, most likely SE would be of Hebrew origin and that’s why he claimed lineage to a thrown and kingdom that wasn’t exactly in that area, but that those were his people down there. I don’t believe the Jews lineage goes to David or Moses. I also don’t believe Moses came out of Egypt but came down through the North maybe through the stans or Turkey.
    It’s always cultural appropriation for the ancient Hebrews and their ancestors, whether it is Arabs or Africans, or Jews, some things just never change. They move in and before you know it, they’ve moved in an take advantage of your kindness, then they steal your life and your heritage, if it could happen to Jesus it could happen to anyone. Then you can’t even move away and give them the land, they’ll just follow you around culturally appropriating everything. :) black could be haircolor.

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    • Replies: @dearieme
    "Jesus who was European" which we know because a millennium and a half later North Italians painted him as looking North Italian.
    , @Bliss

    I don’t believe the Jews lineage goes to David or Moses. I also don’t believe Moses came out of Egypt but came down through the North
     
    Lol. So you don’t believe the Bible is the Word of God? What kind of Christian are you?

    No civilization is safe from appropriation by these crazy nordicist megalomaniacs: We wuz the Pharoahs of Egypt, the Hebrews of the Bible, the Aryans of India, the Greeks, and the Romans too, etc etc etc.

    No you whackjobs, you wuz the northern barbarians who never succeeded in creating a civilization of your own. Quit lying already...
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  283. George says:

    Candidate for Governor of NY Cynthia “Sex in the City, LBGT” Nixon backs “weed-parations”

    Cynthia Nixon called marijuana licenses a “form of reparations” for black people. Not exactly.
    Marijuana reform can help black communities. That doesn’t make it “reparations.”

    https://www.vox.com/identities/2018/5/8/17331660/cynthia-nixon-marijuana-licenses-reparations

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  284. Melendwyr says: • Website
    @Lot
    BBC's Troy is pretty bad judging from the first 2 episodes. The main characters that get the screen time, at least in those episodes, were white. But you see some hints that Achilles is going to be a wise, brave, perfect, awesome character like all black characters in historical dramas.

    Beyond the PC issues, the acting is stilted, the sets low rent, and dialog borders on campy, sort of a not-funny SJW version of Conan or Xena, Warrior Princess.

    The best Brit drama since Downton Abbey is Peaky Blinders.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peaky_Blinders_(TV_series)

    They have an ahistorical token black (in 1920 Birmingham, yeah right), and if course he's smart and brave and stands up to racism, but he's a minor character with maybe 6 minutes of screen time centered on him in the series. And they kind of make up for it with a delightful non-PC Italian and Jewish mobsters and Irish Republican thugs. And the Winston Churchill scenes are a lot better than the recent Churchill movie, and made me crave an early Churchill spin-off woth the same actors and writers.

    The show wasn't quite as good as the Sopranos or Sons of Anarchy, but it was close enough for me. The largest defect was primarily that the anti-hero was just too canny and clever and lucky to feel believable.

    This 7-episode Australian series from 2015 was also very good:
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallipoli_(miniseries)

    Rather ironic of them, given how messed-up Achilles was in the original legends. Greek heroes often weren’t ‘heroic’ in a modern sense. If memory serves, Achilles spent a lot of time sulking in his tent rather than trying to win the war. He wasn’t ‘good’ by any means.

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    • Replies: @AnotherDad

    Rather ironic of them, given how messed-up Achilles was in the original legends. Greek heroes often weren’t ‘heroic’ in a modern sense. If memory serves, Achilles spent a lot of time sulking in his tent rather than trying to win the war. He wasn’t ‘good’ by any means.
     
    All true. These legends are stories about actual humans with human failings, not cartoons like so much modern nonsense.

    Achilles is a great warrior, but also a too proud and hot-headed. Yet in fairness he's "sulking in his tent", because Agamemnon--essentially compelled by the Greeks to give up his own woman war prize to appease Apollo's demands--demanded Achilles's Briseis**--who Achilles has fallen in love with--as compensation. Agamemnon demonstrates the classic a*hole "the shit flows downhill" leadership that is typical of leaders of the West today.

    ~~~

    ** Briseis is described as golden-haired, blue-eyed, smokin' hot and smart to boot. Of course that means she must have been a sub-saharan African.
    , @Anonymous
    As I recall, Achilles sulking in his tent was a response to the Greek chief stealing his woman. Ironic in light of the purported casus belli of the war.
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  285. Yngvar says:
    @Jonathan Mason
    Wait a minute.

    The word 'black' in English is currently used to signify anyone of pure or mixed African descent, and has little to do with skin color, as most 'black' people have skin that is a shade of brown, but many have hair that is more or less black on their head or body.

    In Spanish the word 'negro' (=black) does not have this same sense, and just signifies someone with very dark skin, whereas 'moreno' signifies someone with more-or-less brown skin.

    The Spanish word for black used to be used in North America, but was corrupted into a word that is now generally regarded as rude and insulting, except when used poetically by rappers.

    The ancient Greeks were probably similar to the people who live in the area today. No doubt there will have been some genetic outliers within that population with nordic or African traits, as the Greeks were a seafaring people, and seafaring people tend to like to sample the local fare at ports of call.

    There is a apocryphal story that during the mess in the Balkans in the 90′s one commentator on CNN called a protagonic country for “Monte-African-American”.

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  286. Melendwyr says: • Website
    @Corn
    Supposedly some of the writers for Deadwood took the time to research 1870-80s vernacular and came to believe that the curses and profanities of the time would sound too ridiculous to modern ears, so they substituted modern swears.

    One writer said something to the effect, “if we kept the profanity true to the times the actors would sound like live action Yosemite Sams”.

    All too true. ‘Goddamn’ is considered a very weak profanity, almost milquetoast, in the modern world; in the period of the show, it was much stronger.

    A comparison could be made to the curses used in comic books, which were considered to be suitable substitutions for the eyes of children, but in their original medieval contexts were shockingly blasphemous and strongly discouraged. ‘For example, ‘zounds’ is a contraction of “by God’s wounds”, with the belief being that swearing by the wounds of Christ would tear apart of the physical body of Jesus if the oath wasn’t kept.

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    • Replies: @Corn
    “All too true. ‘Goddamn’ is considered a very weak profanity, almost milquetoast, in the modern world; in the period of the show, it was much stronger.”

    Yes, exactly. The Deadwood writer quoted in the magazine article said modern cursing leans toward sexual and bodily function references, 1870s swearing leaned towards the blasphemous.
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  287. Yngvar says:

    Racism is emotional, not rational.

    If there ever was a more clear cut example of projection, I have not seen it.

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  288. @Steve Sailer
    Recent high tech grave robbing in an Egyptian cemetery in Roman times comes up with about 8% sub-Saharan DNA by ancestry, less than today in Egypt. Probably in Greek times would have been even less. But still, there would likely have been a few mixed race people in Egypt from up the river, kind of like in the opera "Aida."

    So then, Cecil B. DeMille actually got it right in his 1956 film The Ten Commandments (which is supposed to be set in ancient Egypt, say, about ca.1300-1100BC). There are Sub-Saharan blacks in the picture, but they are mainly confined to servant work and remain in the background. In other words they don’t have prominent roles in ancient Egyptian society nor were there very many of them.

    In his 1934 film Cleopatra, blacks are confined to the same types of roles (servant/domestic work). However, perhaps anticipating all the Black Athena hoopla by several decades, some of the Romans ask about her, what does she look like? One Roman asks “Is she black?” And everyone at the Roman societal get together laugh uproariously. As DeMille often used original ancient historical sources, it’s funny how that kind of question was asked about her even in historical accounts.

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  289. @PiltdownMan

    Historically speaking, Saddam Hussein could pass for white, correct?
     
    A lot of pictures of the young Saddam make him look vaguely high yeller.

    https://i2.wp.com/upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b9/Saddam_Hussain_1980.jpg/396px-Saddam_Hussain_1980.jpg

    https://assemble.me/uploads/websites/1969/images/58371c25bd3ed.png

    His clansman and subordinate, Izzat Ibrahim al-Duri, of course, famously, looked like a Scotsman.

    http://www.ensonhaber.com/resimler/diger/el-duri_3656.jpg

    He looks like Cab Calloway’s twin, ca. 1930.

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  290. Corn says:
    @Melendwyr
    All too true. 'Goddamn' is considered a very weak profanity, almost milquetoast, in the modern world; in the period of the show, it was much stronger.

    A comparison could be made to the curses used in comic books, which were considered to be suitable substitutions for the eyes of children, but in their original medieval contexts were shockingly blasphemous and strongly discouraged. 'For example, 'zounds' is a contraction of "by God's wounds", with the belief being that swearing by the wounds of Christ would tear apart of the physical body of Jesus if the oath wasn't kept.

    “All too true. ‘Goddamn’ is considered a very weak profanity, almost milquetoast, in the modern world; in the period of the show, it was much stronger.”

    Yes, exactly. The Deadwood writer quoted in the magazine article said modern cursing leans toward sexual and bodily function references, 1870s swearing leaned towards the blasphemous.

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    • Replies: @Autochthon
    Vanishingly few persons know the difference between profanity and obscenity anymore (or that there even isn't a difference). It's a telling measure of our times.
    , @Anonymous
    Never would you ever have heard any of the Rat Pack say any of the famous Carlin seven dirty words onstage, but "goddamned" was heard out of Dean and Sammy several times in the Rat Pack live stage recordings in the JFK/MM era (or immediately after: the now famous Vila Venice tapes were from September '62.)
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  291. @syonredux

    Michael should’ve taken her back to US and dumped Kate.
     
    Kay.

    Way prettier than Kate (Diane Keaton). Does anyone really consider Diane Keaton to be all that?
     
    Peak Keaton was pretty cute:


    https://78.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m15u7vBleW1qc8b9do1_500.jpg

    Michael should’ve taken her back to US and dumped Kate.

     

    Ethnic subtext. Michael wants to beat the WASP establishment.

    “Kay.”

    Kay, Kate. Really doesn’t matter in the long run. As she aborted one of Michael’s kids, certainly doesn’t look as if he beat the WASP establishment. She whacked someone that Michael really wanted in his life (another child). So she “wins”, so to speak. None of that would have happened if he’d brought back Simonetta.

    “Peak Keaton was pretty cute.”

    Ew, I just ate lunch. Please. Cute for Hollywood equals goofy weird sidekick, and not Alist. Keaton alongside Christy Brinkley, no comparison. Or Raquel Welch. Cute doesn’t get one on the Alist for classic beauties. Simonetta wins, hands down.

    NOTICE: Coppola takes great pains to show the copulation scene between Michael and Simonetta wheras in the NY hotel its hinted at that he did it with Kay/Kate/Miss Cold, Frigid, Prim, and Proper Whitebread who probably wouldn’t recognize a real orgasm from chipping her fingernails.

    There’s a reason Simonetta and Michael do it for the camera. Earthy, sensual, passionate, wonderful, exciting. All adjectives that neither G-1 nor G-2 ever show Kay/Kate and Michael together. With them its all very prim, proper, etc. Had they stayed together, Michael would’ve taken a mistress, much like Sonny. Unlike Sonny, Michael would’ve been more discreet about it, and he would’ve had a nice earthier Italian girl to get it on with.

    Ah, Simonetta.

    And remember, that’s without major makeup either. A little cleaning up and she’d be another Sophia Loren, or Gina Lollabrigida.

    And neither Gina nor Sophia are “cute”.

    “Ethnic subtext. Michael wants to beat the WASP establishment.”

    And does he? Does he really in the end? A case can be made either way.

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    • Replies: @syonredux

    “Kay.”

    Kay, Kate. Really doesn’t matter in the long run.
     
    Never call a Kate a Kay....

    As she aborted one of Michael’s kids, certainly doesn’t look as if he beat the WASP establishment.
     
    Sure he does. He beats the Jews (Hyman Roth). The Irish (Captain McCluskey) and the WASP establishment (the Senate)...

    She whacked someone that Michael really wanted in his life (another child). So she “wins”, so to speak.
     
    Nah. Michael loses the kid because he's unbalanced. He's got his father's brains, but not his heart (Fredo got that part). Hence, the tragedy of Michael....He can't hold his family together. He can only triumph at business....

    None of that would have happened if he’d brought back Simonetta.

     


    NOTICE: Coppola takes great pains to show the copulation scene between Michael and Simonetta wheras in the NY hotel its hinted at that he did it with Kay/Kate/Miss Cold, Frigid, Prim, and Proper Whitebread who probably wouldn’t recognize a real orgasm from chipping her fingernails.

    There’s a reason Simonetta and Michael do it for the camera. Earthy, sensual, passionate, wonderful, exciting. All adjectives that neither G-1 nor G-2 ever show Kay/Kate and Michael together. With them its all very prim, proper, etc.

     

    Nah. More evidence of Michael's divided nature. He can't have a woman who is both mind and body. He can only have mind (Kay) or body (Apollonia*).....Had Apollonia survived the bombing, he would have inevitably destroyed her....



    *Note the irony, as there is very little that is Apollonian about her...
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  292. Wonder what Diablo Cody looks like? I also mean back in her prime? Is Diablo white or is she black too? That’s the real question. Watch, a few googles and Cody probably resembles Diane Keaton.

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    • Replies: @J.Ross
    Cody looks like a short fat not-ugly but not-beautiful girl, invisible in a decent crowd because of her inbetweenness. In other words, becoming a stripper, blogger, and then screenwriter is an illustration of a certain law predicting that unattractive women will marshall writing talent to replace beauty.
    , @Brutusale
    Here's a shot of Cody with Lily Burana, who was a real stripper and wrote the seminal book about it, Strip City, which chronicled her "last" tour before retiring.

    https://www.gettyimages.com/event/operation-bombshell-benefit-event-87230488?esource=SEO_GIS_CDN_Redirect#/author-lily-burana-and-screenwriter-diablo-cody-attend-the-operation-picture-id87379531

    Note the tattooed "sleeve" on Cody's right shoulder.

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  293. @Steve Sailer
    And the Romans may have sent a couple of delegations to the Chinese emperor.

    But the world was more open to long distance travel in Roman times than in whatever period we are attributing Achilles to.

    But long distance travel two thousand years ago wasn’t a walk in the park either. Especially eastward over land masses like the Caucasus Mts., and the unknown world of what later became Russia. Roman legions were amazing in battle but a simple delegation wouldn’t have lasted very long having to wage battles with unknown barbarians.

    When it comes to traveling long distances through unknown lands, it does seem like the Romans were no different than modern man. “Meh, why bother? Flavius can get it for us wholesale through his Arabian merchant, who gets it from an Indian merchant, who gets it from….wherever the unknown world ends.” A choice between staying in Capri and enjoying the spas or going across unknown lands just for a few extra spices and silks probably didn’t seem all that appealing to the upper classes.

    Also, the operative word is “may” have sent a delegation. Suppose one could consult the ancient Chinese accounts of that time to see if any Romans did show up at the court of the Emperor.

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    • Replies: @Anon
    Syrian catholic monks traveled to China 200 to 300 AD before Constantine legalized Catholicism Christianity.
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  294. Tex says:
    @Anonymous
    Turks from Turkey are basically Turkish speaking Greeks, Armenians, Georgians, Kurds, etc.

    I’ve met a few Turks who had blond hair and blue eyes. Albanian ancestry can be found among some Turks.

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  295. We might add that modern geneticists too find classification by skin colour unhelpful, and indeed avoid the term ‘race’ (a meaningless category in biological terms). There is relatively little genetic difference between the human populations of different continents, and levels of skin pigmentation are a very poor proxy for general genetic relatedness. The distinction between ‘black’ African and ‘white’ European peoples, then, is not just unGreek: it’s also unbiological.

    Late to the party here, but the thing that strikes me is how can people–at least a white man–not be embarassed to put their name on crap like this?

    I get that Donna Zuckerberg has an ethnic/sexual agenda to “deconstruct” what white gentiles have done. But is the mentality of a white “intellectual” like this Tim Whitemarsh fellow that you would publicly put your name on such utter gibberish? He’s a Cambridge professor and is unembarassed by to publish stuff that is abjectly stupid.

    Sure, we don’t precisely know what Achilles looked like–including his skin tone. Whitemarsh is right, that skin color is “poor proxy for general genetic relatedness” (ex. Sub-sahrahan Africans and Australian Aboriginals.) But one thing we do absolutely positively know about the ancient Greeks is … they weren’t the sub-Saharan Africans! Every scrap of evidence from language to stories, descriptions, statuary, etc. etc. makes that clear. We can with 100% confidence say that Achilles looked nothing like this black guy that the BBC cast in that role.

    Furthermore, we know that BBC folks did that as a political act specifically to poke those “white racists” in the eye, taking a foundational Western legend and blackening it up. Just a rude, crude, nasty little bit of assholery so typical of “progressives”.

    ~

    BTW, if you had to bet on the looks of ancient Greeks it would be that they look *more* “European” than modern Greeks. The main demographic input of know history is that the Ottoman program was to launch a campaign every single year–either East or West–so for about 600 years there were Ottoman armies tramping through Greece–and the Balkans–undoubtedly leaving being some of their seed as armies do. So the bet is that Greece has gotten more Semitic/Asiatic during history. In contrast the Illiad is from a time when the Indo-European language speaking Greeks were only 1000 or 1500 years from their (“blond beast”!) invasion from the steppe.

    In any case, the psychology of the Tim Whitemarshes of the world just escapes me. Why utterly abase yourself this way?

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  296. dearieme says:

    Had the Greeks been subSaharan black why did none of their whitish neighbours comment on the fact?

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  297. Dante says:

    This is the latest in a line of anti white msm attemps to take European history & achieviement away from Europeans which includes their cultural appropriation tv shows. And all of them have had zero impact indeed they’ve had the opposite effect of waking up Europeans up to the anti white agenda. Europeans know they are being lied to, It’s (((msm))) after all.

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    • Replies: @Anon
    Just my personal opinion, most Whites and not just Jews believe all of it, especially that the ancient Egyptians and Cleopatra were black.

    When I tell them that Cleopatra was pure Greek ethnicity and a direct descendant of Philip the great they get all indignant and tell me that us evil Whites made up that story in the Middle Ages
    , @Vox Australis
    The Left has no scruples about rewriting history so that it conforms to Marxist ideology. In 1946, just before the beginning of Australia's post-war immigration scheme, it is estimated that at least 90% of the (non-Aboriginal) population was descended exclusively from immigrants from the British Isles. However, it is possible that the 750 or so convicts who came to Australia in 1788 included about half a dozen persons who may have been less than 100% white, so the Left now asserts that Australian society has always been multi-racial and multi-cultural.
    For some reason I am reminded of the final page in Nineteen Eighty Four, where Winston Smith, with gin-soaked tears running down his face, realises that he has won the battle with himself, and that he really loves Big Brother.
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  298. @Melendwyr
    Rather ironic of them, given how messed-up Achilles was in the original legends. Greek heroes often weren't 'heroic' in a modern sense. If memory serves, Achilles spent a lot of time sulking in his tent rather than trying to win the war. He wasn't 'good' by any means.

    Rather ironic of them, given how messed-up Achilles was in the original legends. Greek heroes often weren’t ‘heroic’ in a modern sense. If memory serves, Achilles spent a lot of time sulking in his tent rather than trying to win the war. He wasn’t ‘good’ by any means.

    All true. These legends are stories about actual humans with human failings, not cartoons like so much modern nonsense.

    Achilles is a great warrior, but also a too proud and hot-headed. Yet in fairness he’s “sulking in his tent”, because Agamemnon–essentially compelled by the Greeks to give up his own woman war prize to appease Apollo’s demands–demanded Achilles’s Briseis**–who Achilles has fallen in love with–as compensation. Agamemnon demonstrates the classic a*hole “the shit flows downhill” leadership that is typical of leaders of the West today.

    ~~~

    ** Briseis is described as golden-haired, blue-eyed, smokin’ hot and smart to boot. Of course that means she must have been a sub-saharan African.

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    • Replies: @Anon
    Helen was supposed to have light red strawberry blonde hair.
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  299. @David
    Lucian in a mocking essay on an ignorant book collector says, "shell an Ethiopian wash?" to mean "can a tiger change its spots?"

    It’s a leopard not a tiger that has spots and it predates Lucian substantially. It’s in the Bible ,Jeremiah13;23

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    • Replies: @David
    Thanks. Just so! Now if someone claimed that 7th cent BC Hebrews didn't distinguish between Ethiopians and themselves, or between tigers and leopards, you could present Jeremiah 13:23 as a counter example.
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  300. @Peter Akuleyev
    That’s because they didn’t get out much from the Mediterranean and Black Sea, where everybody was fairly similar racially because of the ease of transport, except for a small number of blackish people in Egypt from far up the Nile and perhaps a rare visitor from India.

    The Romans saw plenty of Sub-saharans. The Romans were just as likely to consider blond Germans "racially inferior" as black Africans. The Mediterranean peoples were the pinnacle of existence, and the further out you went, the more barbaric and contemptible the people were, with Britons probably at the bottom, certainly below the Nubians.

    Steve makes a good point though - neither the Greeks or Romans had much of a sense of the big picture. A lot of racial differences only make sense in the aggregate. I am sure if you saw a black Nubian prince bedecked in gold jewelry and exotic furs parading through Rome as a boy, and then got shipped as a legionary over to damp Britain were you saw dirty illiterate Celts living in huts covered with moss and daubing themselves with paint and tending pigs, you wouldn't suspect "white" people were anything special. Poverty makes everyone look bad, which is why the English considered the Irish subhuman right up to the 20th century.

    A lot of the traits that have benefited white or East Asian people tremendously over the past thousand years - superior abstract thinking, organizational skills, longer time preferences, obedience, etc. - were also not particularly valued by Roman or Greek elites. Nice qualities to have in a slave perhaps, but not the kind of person a Roman leader aspired to be.

    ” The Romans were just as likely to consider blond Germans “racially inferior” as black Africans”

    Tacitus’ portrait of the Germans is quite a sympathetic one, acknowledging their military prowess and approving of their morals.

    https://facultystaff.richmond.edu/~wstevens/history331texts/barbarians.html

    “Reckoning from that year to the second consulship of the emperor Trajan, we get a total of about two hundred and ten years. Such is the time it is taking to conquer Germany. In this long period much punishment has been given and taken. Neither by the Samnites nor by the Carthaginians, not by Spain or Gaul, or even by the Parthians, have we had more lessons taught us. The freedom of Germany is capable of more energetic action than the Arsacid despotism. After all, what has the East to taunt us with, except the slaughter of Crassus? And it soon lost its own prince Pacorus and was humbled at the feet of Ventidius. But the Germans routed or captured Carbo, Cassius, Aurelius Scaurus, Servilius Cacpio, and Mallius Maximus, and robbed the Republic, almost at one stroke, of five consular armies. Even from Augustus they took Varus and his three legions. And we had to pay a high price for the defeats inflicted upon them by Gaius Marius in Italy, by Julius Caesar in Gaul, and by Drusus, Tiberius, and Germanicus in their own country. The boastful threats of Gaius Caesar ended in farce. After that came a lull, until the Germans took advantage of our dissensions and civil wars to storm the quarters of the legions and make a bid for possession of Gaul.”

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  301. @Randal

    this led to a fad for using “Pygmalion” itself as a pseudo-oath, as in “Not Pygmalion likely”
     
    That's interesting, because I can recall some people in the late C20th using the euphemism "pigging", as in "not pigging likely", which I had always assumed was just related to the animal, but that gives a much more plausible derivation.

    “I can recall some people in the late C20th using the euphemism “pigging”, as in “not pigging likely””

    I remember that, and seem to recall “pigging” was invented by scriptwriters and used on TV in the 60s and 70s as a kind of verbal placeholder for the f-word, and then used by some people who copy what they hear on TV. Now TV just goes straight to the f-word, at least after 9 pm.

    The f-word was definitely in use in WWI – one fiction book on the conflict mentions General Von Kluck as being “the subject of so many admirable rhymes“!

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_von_Kluck#In_popular_culture

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    • Replies: @Randal

    I remember that, and seem to recall “pigging” was invented by scriptwriters and used on TV in the 60s and 70s as a kind of verbal placeholder for the f-word, and then used by some people who copy what they hear on TV.
     
    Yes, the kind of people I recall using it were middle aged northerners, mostly women, for some reason. Anyway, they most likely did pick it up from the TV as you suggest.

    But TV scriptwriters in the 60s are exactly the kind of people who might have adapted it from an old remembered fashion for saying "Not Pygmalion likely", though they'd likely have done it knowingly rather than just misinterpreting what they'd heard.

    Come to think of it I've a nagging memory that it might have cropped up in a Hancock's Half Hour, now that I think about it.
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  302. Clyde says:
    @PiltdownMan

    Historically speaking, Saddam Hussein could pass for white, correct?
     
    A lot of pictures of the young Saddam make him look vaguely high yeller.

    https://i2.wp.com/upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b9/Saddam_Hussain_1980.jpg/396px-Saddam_Hussain_1980.jpg

    https://assemble.me/uploads/websites/1969/images/58371c25bd3ed.png

    His clansman and subordinate, Izzat Ibrahim al-Duri, of course, famously, looked like a Scotsman.

    http://www.ensonhaber.com/resimler/diger/el-duri_3656.jpg

    Saddam would have fit in great playing at The Cotton Club.

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  303. @Randal

    One writer said something to the effect, “if we kept the profanity true to the times the actors would sound like live action Yosemite Sams”.
     
    For me, such decisions are what make the difference between drama of informative and educational substance, and superficial tripe. Clearly, the Deadwood writers chose the tripe route.

    Clearly, the Deadwood writers chose the tripe route.

    Yeah, dialogue where every other word is f- this and f-that is weak writing. Right up there with dream sequences. Tried to watch Deadwood. Couldn’t.

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    • Agree: Kylie
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  304. Melendwyr says: • Website
    @Autochthon
    I am sure they would have cared a great deal about glass; it is useful as all Hell to anyone with half a brain. Did the Amerindians not care about guns just because they generally stole them or traded for them rather than becoming gunsmiths themselves? Of course not. The idea anyone without glass, when shown it, would be utterly uninterested is disingenuous to the point of stupidity.

    I am sure they would have cared a great deal about glass; it is useful as all Hell to anyone with half a brain.

    A la The Gods Must Be Crazy. It’s not a documentary, but is still a pretty accurate representation of how a Bushman tribe would respond to the accidental find of a glass soda bottle.

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    • Replies: @Difference Maker
    Bushmen, not Chinese, who have their own ceramics including their own versions of glass
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  305. Randal says:
    @Buffalo Joe
    Unze, The Romans used hippos, elephants and crocodiles in their circuses at the Colosseum. So, wouldn't they have brought back black slaves too?

    The Romans used hippos, elephants and crocodiles in their circuses at the Colosseum. So, wouldn’t they have brought back black slaves too?

    Hippos and crocodiles were indigenous to the Nile area, and elephants were well known in North Africa. No need to venture into sub-Saharan Africa for any of them, let alone try to bring them back across miles of desert.

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    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    Randal, Thank you.
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  306. Randal says:
    @YetAnotherAnon
    "I can recall some people in the late C20th using the euphemism “pigging”, as in “not pigging likely”"

    I remember that, and seem to recall "pigging" was invented by scriptwriters and used on TV in the 60s and 70s as a kind of verbal placeholder for the f-word, and then used by some people who copy what they hear on TV. Now TV just goes straight to the f-word, at least after 9 pm.

    The f-word was definitely in use in WWI - one fiction book on the conflict mentions General Von Kluck as being "the subject of so many admirable rhymes"!

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_von_Kluck#In_popular_culture

    I remember that, and seem to recall “pigging” was invented by scriptwriters and used on TV in the 60s and 70s as a kind of verbal placeholder for the f-word, and then used by some people who copy what they hear on TV.

    Yes, the kind of people I recall using it were middle aged northerners, mostly women, for some reason. Anyway, they most likely did pick it up from the TV as you suggest.

    But TV scriptwriters in the 60s are exactly the kind of people who might have adapted it from an old remembered fashion for saying “Not Pygmalion likely”, though they’d likely have done it knowingly rather than just misinterpreting what they’d heard.

    Come to think of it I’ve a nagging memory th