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Weinsteingate: It's Philip Roth's World
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Commenter Abe writes:

Philip Roth is clearly being shunned for the Nobel Prize in literature (one can make the case Naipaul was maybe more worthy and Coetzee about equally worthy, but to give it to short-story scribbler Alice Munro??? Or Dylan?, which is the real nail in the coffin, since now the Committee can say they’ve done their duty by Jews and it’ll be another 25 years before they consider any more Jewish honorees). The question is- why? I thought it was partially the anti-Jewish/Palestinian solidarity thing (while Roth is no Avigdor Lieberman, I think he has clearly expressed his support for Israel’s right to exist), partly the anti-white male thing, and partly the pro-feminist/anti-thrusting sex fiend thing. with it sliding over time: from 70% (pro-Palestine)-15%-15% in the 90′s, to 25%-50% (anti-white male)-25% in the 2000′s, to 5%-15%-80% ([email protected] grabber) in CURRENT YEAR.

And yet despite losing relevancy over the last 10-20 years, who is now the most prophetic, ribald, visionary grand old man of letters on the planet (OK, maybe Houellebecq, but the translated excerpts I’ve seen have left me cold; I promise to sit down and finish ELEMENTARY PARTICLES in 2018, though)? The fact that THE NEW YORK TIMES is calling for the extra-Constitutional liquidation of Federal judge Alex Portnoy (or is that Mickey Sabbath? or is that David Kepesh?) who is the son of Holocaust Survivors (think THE COUNTERLIFE and “Philip Roth”‘s chase after WWII war criminal John Demjanjuk), achieves fame and power under a Republican President, and now in his twilight but still virile 60′s is brought low by another SJW moral panic (think THE HUMAN STAIN, which while about race, also had a few sharp words to say about the Clinton-Lewinsky scandal at the beginning)?

It’s Philip Roth’s world (or maybe computer-simulated virtual reality according to Elon Musk)- we’re just living (or MOB’ing) in it.

 
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  1. Philip Roth is a degenerate

    Read More
    • Agree: Nico
    • Replies: @Anon
    Philip Roth is a degenerate

    True, but human condition is partly degenerate.

    The thing is Roth has been a thinking and troubled writer of degeneracy. There is a conflict, a struggle, a wrestling with problems of modernity.

    That's all we can ask for in an artist. Now, Roth as a human being or ideologue may offend people, but art has value beyond morality and politics.
    , @Issac
    Today I will remind them
    , @unpc downunder
    Translation, for non-bracket people: he's a right-liberal Jew.

    In bracket people land, people don't have ideologies, only races. And there is no such thing as being mixed race and having conflicting racial loyalties.

    , @Anon

    Philip Roth is a degenerate
     
    I didn't know the old pervert was still alive. Wonders never cease.
    , @Jack D
    If we got rid of all the great artists and writers who were degenerates, the museums and libraries would be mostly empty. It's possible to criticize Roth but not to just dismiss him with those 3 words.
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  2. Did Joseph Heller get a Lit Nobel? Since when is Roth better or more influential than Heller?
    OT
    Swedish journalist of MENA descent Bechir Rabani claimed to have received major information about media mogul and aggressive leftist political activist Robert Aschberg. Aschberg’s wife Lotta threatened to kill Bechir. Then Bechir was found dead in his home. In Sweden Aschberg is both a big media wheel and the head of EXPO, the local SPLC equivalent. Although not ethnically Swedish Bechir represented past generations of immigrans, who were much more integrated and assimilated, and resented the recent chaotic wave.

    http://www.friatider.se/medborgarjournalisten-bechir-rabani-d-d-efter-aschberg-bes-k

    https://www.nordfront.se/medborgarjournalisten-bechir-rabani-har-avlidit.smr

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    • Replies: @flyingtiger
    Heller wrote one superlative novel- Catch 22-That belongs to the ages. The rest is just ordinary. That is the problem he has.
    , @Mr. Anon
    I tend to be much more impressed by writers who have actually done something in their lives worth writing about. Joseph Heller fought in WWII - he flew 60 combat missions in a B-25. Likewise, Norman Mailer and Kurt Vonnegut were both combat veterans. War is certainly an intense experience. So many novelists now are just office drones - lit professors. They have known little of life at the extreme. Why should I particularly care what they think?
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  3. Here’s Aschberg, holding a Louisville Slugger to promote his TV show “Troll Hunting,” in which he physically confronts the backtraced thought criminals who posted hate speech online.

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    • Replies: @Neoconned1
    I'm 6 ft 1 and 240 lbs. I'd love for this asshole to show up to my door w his bat....
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  4. Or Dylan?,

    Because Dylan is a songwriter and because song lyrics aren’t same as poetry, I can understand the problem.

    BUT, he is the prophet of his era and his best work was pure genius on both musical and literary level.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Have to agree with you, even though I sometimes find him and his work objectionable. So what? His greatest work is nothing short of stunning. I can't even explain him. Who can explain the occurrence of genius?

    Meanwhile, Alice Munro won the Nobel Prize? I had no idea, and I was happier when I had no idea.
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  5. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Roderick Spode
    Philip Roth is a degenerate

    Philip Roth is a degenerate

    True, but human condition is partly degenerate.

    The thing is Roth has been a thinking and troubled writer of degeneracy. There is a conflict, a struggle, a wrestling with problems of modernity.

    That’s all we can ask for in an artist. Now, Roth as a human being or ideologue may offend people, but art has value beyond morality and politics.

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    • Replies: @Whitehall
    Why have the two Roth books I've read touched me so? Why have they spoke to the matters of my life?

    If Roth is a degenerate than so am I..

    Better to admit we are all fallen from grace and could use more than a little soul searching.

    That's why I read Roth.
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  6. Anon • Disclaimer says:

    It’s Philip Roth’s world (or maybe computer-simulated virtual reality according to Elon Musk)- we’re just living (or MOB’ing) in it.

    This is why we need artists because art is truth wrapped in fiction. Indeed, the element of fiction allows for the deeper truth.

    Judges must stick to the facts, laws, and legal arguments.
    Media must rely on facts, agendas, or ideology.

    An artist is free to explore.

    NYT is Jewish priesthood. It can’t think or say anything outside the ideological or financial box. The rules are determined by PC and by big money that owns the media.

    Roth is Jewish prophet. He can delve into things more deeply. He can get inside the minds of those he hates or despises.

    The priesthood always fears the prophets who aren’t content with the dogma.

    Artists are true prophets — unlike talented hacks like Sorkin — always reveal more than they intend to because creativity, vision, and prophecy have their own logic.
    This is why the artistic side of David Mamet reveals so much more than his political side. Politics dictate meaning whereas art searches for meaning and always finds much more than intended or willed.

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  7. Why didn’t Roth get a Nobel prize for literature?

    Probably because the judges read The Plot Against America. (Or at least tried to.)

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    • Replies: @International Jew

    Probably because the judges read The Plot Against America.
     
    ??? When that came out, all the lefties were sure it was an allegory about G W Bush and the mortal danger he posed to democracy and everything else we hold dear.
    , @Anon
    Nobel Prize or Oscars. Who cares?

    People act as if those awards still have value.

    True, some great writers have won, but it's always been more of a Feel-Good Award or a Political Statement than anything.

    Now, it's not as pisspoor as the Peace Prize that became UTTERLY worthless when Obama got it for having done NOTHING.

    Still, too many Lit Prizes were handed out for political reasons.
    , @Anon
    Maybe it's the Bellow Curse. Maybe the Nobel Committee believes that subject -- Jewish subjective life -- has been rewarded already.

    Nobel seems to hand out awards based on themes than talent alone.
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  8. Anon • Disclaimer says:

    Roth is a major writer but a subject for the elites and literary community.

    As for the masses, it’s rap for the youths and stuff like 50 SHADES OF GREY for women.

    And crass mass culture has infiltrated the Ivies.

    The culture is sado-masochistic.

    http://www.breitbart.com/tech/2017/12/15/princeton-university-to-host-bdsm-sex-tutorial-workshop/

    Women bitch about harassment but make stuff like 50 SHADES into a worldwide phenom. I guess ‘punishment’ is okay as long as the guy is rich, good-looking, and handsome.

    The S&M goes both way. Men like to lord over women, but they also love playing the white knight, the defender of womenfolk from bestial manhood.
    Women want men of power to come for them but then shriek about ‘rape’. Indeed, the outrage is part of the turn-on, just like Jackie Coakley’s rape account was also a rape fantasy.

    So, do they want it or not?

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    • Replies: @El Dato

    The culture is sado-masochistic.
     
    Welcome to humanity. One of the first uses of the inter-computer-networks (I'm talking pre-Internet, i.e. BBS) was to query for "interesting" sexual experiences.

    So, do they want it or not?
     
    Sadly, we will never know!

    OTOH, Google is developing self-playing game-solving neural-network based automatons, so maybe we will.
    , @Roderick Spode
    It's pretty simple, actually. If a woman says she wants to be beaten, she wants it. If she does not, one may assume she doesn't.
    , @bartok

    So, do they want it or not?
     
    Is it that complicated?

    Women like to be abused by a powerful man if and only if it's meaningful to him, i.e. if he wants to abuse HER, not just any girl.

    50 shades guy was a serial abuser, but monogamous in his abuse. Dominating one slut at a time, not debasing any slut that is in arm's reach.
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  9. Roth’s problem is that he is not a very good writer. Like many another once highly acclaimed, he will be completely forgotten in another generation or two.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Jews like Howard Stern, Ron Jeremy, Al Goldstein, Kinky Friedman et al are my favorite kind of Jews. They act as a walking, talking artificial horizon giving insight into every Jewish neurosis, fixation, et al, there is.

    Philip Roth is such a Jew.
    , @J.Ross
    Yes. Roth is rather pointedly Jewish, so it's easy to get distracted by that, but Roth's real central identity is as a navel-gazing boomer describing what he had for breakfast this morning and comparing it to what he breakfasted on as a kid.
    A certain amount of generationally tied stuff is just plain lost every year for reasons like slang, but I am frequently impressed when I read forgotten stuff from the Twenties or especially the Forties (the Forties might have been a kind of unique high point for American letters). A lot of it holds up much better than more recent material. Zappa (who deserves to be remembered more than Roth) warned about this closing loop of nostalgia.
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  10. @Luke Lea
    Roth's problem is that he is not a very good writer. Like many another once highly acclaimed, he will be completely forgotten in another generation or two.

    Jews like Howard Stern, Ron Jeremy, Al Goldstein, Kinky Friedman et al are my favorite kind of Jews. They act as a walking, talking artificial horizon giving insight into every Jewish neurosis, fixation, et al, there is.

    Philip Roth is such a Jew.

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    • Replies: @Cortes
    Kinky Friedman is a star.

    I want to visit him at his loft and listen to the thumping caused by the leaping of the UmpaLumpas in Winnie Katz’s Lesbian Dance Class upstairs. (That concept alone deserves a Nobel prize).
    , @Anon
    Jews like Howard Stern, Ron Jeremy, Al Goldstein, Kinky Friedman et al are my favorite kind of Jews. They act as a walking, talking artificial horizon giving insight into every Jewish neurosis, fixation, et al, there is.

    That means those Jews are not neurotic, right? Since they expose everything without shame, they don't suffer from complexes. Shamelessness is their therapy and they are cured.
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  11. OT:

    Another Jewish-led outfit has been commemorated yet again in their not-quite-dotage :

    https://www.avclub.com/blondie-jams-with-the-archies-in-this-exclusive-first-l-1821334430

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Dude, the whole bunch are in their dotage. She has false teeth and moves like most any other granny her age. And her voice is a growl now.

    At least that other old hag the veggie-Nazi can still sing, even though her face is shot.
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  12. Finally, the solution to all problems.

    INTERSECTIONAL FEMINISM.

    Men, gentile or Jewish, need to hook up with Interfems and do like Lara Witt says.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgOT4m_nh_4&feature=youtu.be

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    • Replies: @BB753
    Great find! Steve ought to take a look.
    https://everydayfeminism.com/2017/12/intersectional-feminist-first-date/
    , @Joe Franklin
    From the educational video I think I now understand better what is intersectional feminism.

    Intersectional feminism is female victim cultists finding a common cause with other professional victim cults like Afro-Blacks, Native Americans, Jews, Latinos, and queers.

    Their common cause is their incessant demand for more federally provided group entitlements for victim cultists, and their shared hatred of white-straight-gentile-able bodied-nonhispanic-Christians.
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  13. More on how tired SJWs, in this case black women, are, as they “save the country”:

    https://writesomeshit.com/2017/12/13/black-women-do-not-exist-to-save-you/

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  14. @Luke Lea
    Roth's problem is that he is not a very good writer. Like many another once highly acclaimed, he will be completely forgotten in another generation or two.

    Yes. Roth is rather pointedly Jewish, so it’s easy to get distracted by that, but Roth’s real central identity is as a navel-gazing boomer describing what he had for breakfast this morning and comparing it to what he breakfasted on as a kid.
    A certain amount of generationally tied stuff is just plain lost every year for reasons like slang, but I am frequently impressed when I read forgotten stuff from the Twenties or especially the Forties (the Forties might have been a kind of unique high point for American letters). A lot of it holds up much better than more recent material. Zappa (who deserves to be remembered more than Roth) warned about this closing loop of nostalgia.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous

    A certain amount of generationally tied stuff is just plain lost every year for reasons like slang, but I am frequently impressed when I read forgotten stuff from the Twenties or especially the Forties (the Forties might have been a kind of unique high point for American letters). A lot of it holds up much better than more recent material. Zappa (who deserves to be remembered more than Roth) warned about this closing loop of nostalgia.
     
    The problem is that the really good stuff stays underground while the mediocre stuff comes up again and again. The really good stuff tends to offend the status quo no matter what the status quo is and the mediocre gets stuffed in there again and again.

    In the sixties, Rudy Vallee and Eddie Peabody were playing college campuses. The seventies were the time of Happy Days , American Grafitti (it was set in '62, which was mostly before The Sixties), and The Lords of Flatbush. Right now the eighties are in vogue again, it seems.
    , @Dieter Kief
    Hey, Frank Zappa remebered - plus one of his quite interesting thoughts. I'm delighted.
    , @Thea
    Zappa's autobiography is well worth reading. Much better than Roth's navel-gazing & anti-gentile hostility.
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  15. Roth is an extremely overrated writer who owes his acclaim to writing things that other neurotic Jews can relate to and thus shower good reviews and prizes on. I think Roth’s ‘oy vey I’m so guilty for being obsessed with shiksas’ shtick doesn’t excite Scandinavian Nobel voters.

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    • Replies: @Luke Lea

    Roth is an extremely overrated writer who owes his acclaim to writing things that other neurotic Jews can relate to and thus shower good reviews and prizes on.
     
    I think Kafka may be another.
    , @Anon
    I think Roth’s ‘oy vey I’m so guilty for being obsessed with shiksas’ shtick doesn’t excite Scandinavian Nobel voters.

    Nobel Lit, like the Oscars, generally prefer writers who are more inspiring. This is why even Pearl Buck won a prize. She wrote about the Peepul of China. And Hemingway got it because of OLD MAN AND THE SEA, a novel with Big Themes. Same reason Updike never got it. His focus was too 'small' and 'intimate' and 'personal' for the Nobel community.

    http://voices.washingtonpost.com/shortstack/2009/01/john_updike_sans_nobel_prize.html

    In retrospect, I would say DAZED AND CONFUSED is a better film than SCHINDLER'S LIST, but the latter won for understandable reasons: tragic theme, big production, serious message.

    But on occasion, the Awards can surprise. MIDNIGHT COWBOY won for 1969. That is a special movie.

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  16. I just got done reading “American Pastoral.” It’s a good portrayal of how nihilistic and destructive young SJWs can be.

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  17. Steve, I think one time I told my teacher that an alien stole my homework, but I never let an alien do my homework.

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  18. @J.Ross
    http://i.4cdn.org/pol/1513377265250.jpg
    Here's Aschberg, holding a Louisville Slugger to promote his TV show "Troll Hunting," in which he physically confronts the backtraced thought criminals who posted hate speech online.

    I’m 6 ft 1 and 240 lbs. I’d love for this asshole to show up to my door w his bat….

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  19. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    It’s the society that is degenerate and almost entirely incapable of artistic heights.

    Roth is not quotable. Nobody ever quotes him. Very postmodern!

    The critics save highest praise for writers who can’t write, painters who can’t paint etc.

    Great writers leave their mark with writing that rings down through the ages. But Roth is not great–outside of his Tribe. It’s a cult and Roth boosterism goes along with all the other scatological social vectors.

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    • Replies: @stillCARealist
    You forgot composers who can't compose, singers who can't sing, actors who can't act. People who are really good at these things are necessarily rare, but we've forgotten that.
    , @Anon
    It’s the society that is degenerate and almost entirely incapable of artistic heights.

    I dislike the current sensibility too, but artists keep doing work, and every year has its crop of notable films and books.

    I haven't read much of modern fiction, but MARRIAGE PLOT is really good.
    And I only read the first chapter of OSCAR WAO, but it is truly inspired.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Brief_Wondrous_Life_of_Oscar_Wao

    Also, I don't think art is best created by seeking the 'heights'. That leads to White Elephant art where the bigness of intention or theme smothers or neglects all the small details that make art interesting.

    Sometimes artists do their best work by just being natural & minding small details and do their worst work by trying too hard and reaching too high.

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  20. …who is the son of Holocaust Survivors (think THE COUNTERLIFE and “Philip Roth”‘s chase after WWII war criminal John Demjanjuk), achieves fame and power under a Republican President, and now in his twilight but still virile 60′s is brought low by another SJW moral panic (think THE HUMAN STAIN, which while about race, also had a few sharp words to say about the Clinton-Lewinsky scandal at the beginning)?

    And since Trump announced, we’ve been living The Plot Against America. Veritably, Roth is as prescient as Tom Wolfe.

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  21. there are many better writers out there than Roth–start with Peter Handke and Murakami. Dylan is a mediocre songwriter. All this means is that the Nobel Prize in Lit is now a joke, and its demise started with caving to political pressure to elevate that terminal mediocrity, Toni Morrison

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    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    Haruki Murakami is good, but overrated. The most interesting part of The Wind-Up Bird Chronicle was the part set in Manchuria in World War 2, which was likely lightly fictionalized history he'd read. And it had the flimsiest connection to the rest of the novel set in the '80s. Basically, a veteran decides to tell the '80s protagonist his story, even though they barely know each other.

    The '80s story largely consists of a 30-something year old man doing mundane things in his apartment after his wife has left him. Maybe this influenced Knausgaard.

    Murakami's 1Q84 is nicely atmospheric and suspenseful but fizzles in its last act. I liked Ryu Murakami's From The Fatherland, With Love better.

    The Literature Nobel has always been uneven, with the least deserving winners winning because of their left wing politics and the most deserving in spite of theirs. Dylan is an excellent songwriter, but giving a Nobel to a man who seemingly hasn't read a novel since high school was a joke, which Dylan repaid by apparently cribbing most of his acceptance speech from Cliffs Notes.

    , @Anon
    there are many better writers out there than Roth–start with Peter Handke and Murakami.

    Is Handke the guy responsible for WINGS OF DESIRE, that bogus art film?
    Murakami? That phony baloney whose books are like wall paper?
    He's all about fizz and impressions. He's the Wes Anderson of literature.
    All fluff. Anderson made one real movie. Rushmore. Murakami wrote one half-decent book: Hardboiled Wonderland. Otherwise, there's no there there.

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  22. Modern America has a lot of actual geniuses operating in various esoteric niches. We hardly ever hear about them.

    Modern America also has a lot frauds operating in the historic prestige niches. They are supported by the corrupt “media”…! We hear about these frauds on a regular basis.

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    • Replies: @njguy73

    Modern America has a lot of actual geniuses operating in various esoteric niches. We hardly ever hear about them.
     
    Can you name any?
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  23. Roth is an excellent fiction writer and I highly recommend anyone read him, Tom Wolfe and Steve Sailer to understand the formidable change America has undergone since World War Two. But I have to say that Roth’s The Plot Against America was unreadable.

    An underrated Roth novel is the Counterlife. I couldn’t put it down.

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  24. Munro is actually amazing.

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    • Replies: @AnotherGuessModel
    Munro is actually amazing.

    Agreed, and while I can understand the controversy over awarding the literature Nobel to a lyricist, the short story is artistically equal to the novel in every way but the most obvious. And like Roth, Munro's work can also be eerily prescient, for example The Bear Came Over the Mountain on sexual dynamics.
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  25. Anon • Disclaimer says:

    I notice Roth has some reviewing problems on Amazon. My rule of thumb for judging books on that site is that if a book’s total of 1 & 2 star reviews starts reaching around 20%, the book is an absolute stinker. 10% is okay, because 10% is pretty meaningless (sort of the way 10% undecided on any survey means you just asked some dumb people), but 20% means you’ve got perceptive readers who think the author is a blockhead. Roth has several books with bad reviews reaching the 20% range.

    Undoubtedly some people think Roth deserves an award just because he’s been around a long time. This is a common phenomenon, whereby ordinary minds praise writers because they’re ‘The Guy They’ve Read,’ when they were younger, and these persons haven’t done enough reading since to gain any critical perspective. This is why that talentless hack Stephen King is being lauded as a classic writer by bozos who ought to know better.

    ‘The Guy They’ve Read’ syndrome is an absolute plague in fiction. When the Armed Services gave away 155,000-odd books of The Great Gatsby to GIs in World War II, a book that sold all of 153 copies in its first two years after publication, that stupid little book entered the American literary canon and stuck there like a fork in the eyeball instead dying the quiet death it deserved, because a lot of guys with 100-point IQs read it and very little else in their adult life, so they were overly impressed by it.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Sadly, I must agree. Finally got around to reading Gatsby this year and was mighty disappointed. In addition to being bored and afflicted with rolling eyes what with the tired stereotypes Fitzgerald used for characters. This Side of Paradise was better, or I was younger, or both.
    , @Seth Largo
    This Side of Paradise is good, but Gatsby was unique in its time. You won't find many novels, written so early, that combine the stylistic objectivity of Hemingway with the saccharine emotional insight that is the curse of twenty-somethings everywhere.

    The result---and I say this in admiration---is the closest to an 80s synthwave pop song in novel form you're every likely to find:

    The bar is in full swing, and floating rounds of cocktails permeate the garden outside, until the air is alive with chatter and laughter, and casual innuendo and introductions forgotten on the spot, and enthusiastic meetings between women who never knew each other's names.
     
    , @daniel le mouche
    Have to say I haven't read Gatsby since I was around 20 and at that time not a reader, and like you said did enjoy it. Not too long ago I read a book or two of his, can't remember the titles, but one was I think his last book, about a Hollywood mogul. Ah yes, the other was Tender is the Night. I was not so impressed. Also, read A Moveable Feast by the excremental Hemingway, which, besides being utter shite, had a long episode involving Hem and Fitz driving a long distance drunk I think in a car. Twaddle comes to mind. Somerset Maugham, on the other hand, is sterling whenever I pick him up (albeit rarely these days).
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  26. Indeed, Roth has written for decades about the sexual excesses of powerful men on the left and those working in the cultural industries. To be fair though, he never seems to venerate these people. Instead, he gives a special reverence to his Jewish working class ancestors from Newark. A bygone era. Newark is now a deracinated craphole full of transplanted African-American thugs.

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  27. “Dustin Hoffman Allegedly Exposed Himself To A Minor, Assaulted 2 Women”
    “One of the accusers was a good friend of his daughter’s.”

    https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/dustin-hoffman-exposed-minor_us_5a32fcd3e4b01d429cc74c5f

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    • Replies: @Sunbeam
    "Dustin Hoffman Allegedly Exposed Himself To A Minor,"

    Okay, no idea whether this event occurred, any validity to this story.

    But the mechanics "Exposed Himself," well you see this over, and over.

    Who the hell does this? I mean if I were going to sexually harass someone I'd tell them something like "If you don't sleep with me, I'm giving this promotion to someone else. Meet me at the C-Ya-Later motel down by the interstate, it has hourly rates."

    So what, how does just exposing your genitalia become something someone wants to do? Just don't get it.
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  28. I think Roth’s writings deeply influence the creation of Mad Men.

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  29. @Meretricious
    there are many better writers out there than Roth--start with Peter Handke and Murakami. Dylan is a mediocre songwriter. All this means is that the Nobel Prize in Lit is now a joke, and its demise started with caving to political pressure to elevate that terminal mediocrity, Toni Morrison

    Haruki Murakami is good, but overrated. The most interesting part of The Wind-Up Bird Chronicle was the part set in Manchuria in World War 2, which was likely lightly fictionalized history he’d read. And it had the flimsiest connection to the rest of the novel set in the ’80s. Basically, a veteran decides to tell the ’80s protagonist his story, even though they barely know each other.

    The ’80s story largely consists of a 30-something year old man doing mundane things in his apartment after his wife has left him. Maybe this influenced Knausgaard.

    Murakami’s 1Q84 is nicely atmospheric and suspenseful but fizzles in its last act. I liked Ryu Murakami’s From The Fatherland, With Love better.

    The Literature Nobel has always been uneven, with the least deserving winners winning because of their left wing politics and the most deserving in spite of theirs. Dylan is an excellent songwriter, but giving a Nobel to a man who seemingly hasn’t read a novel since high school was a joke, which Dylan repaid by apparently cribbing most of his acceptance speech from Cliffs Notes.

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    • Replies: @Anon
    Haruki Murakami is good, but overrated.

    He should be called Haruki Origami. It's all a clever contraption.
    , @daniel le mouche
    'Dylan is an excellent songwriter, but giving a Nobel to a man who seemingly hasn’t read a novel since high school was a joke, which Dylan repaid by apparently cribbing most of his acceptance speech from Cliffs Notes.'

    Good final observation, there. Actually, the final two. I disagree that he's a great songwriter, though I've always been a fan. But his songs, since I hit, say, high school, don't really move me much, catchy though they often are. I always have in the back of my mind that it's all sort of crap, that none of it's sincere, though he's renowned for the very fact of his supposed deep sincerity way back in the sixties and beyond. Watching that Sixty Minutes interview with Ed Bradley, you got to see more who he really is, a (possibly satanic, according to himself) phoney.
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  30. @J.Ross
    Did Joseph Heller get a Lit Nobel? Since when is Roth better or more influential than Heller?
    OT
    Swedish journalist of MENA descent Bechir Rabani claimed to have received major information about media mogul and aggressive leftist political activist Robert Aschberg. Aschberg's wife Lotta threatened to kill Bechir. Then Bechir was found dead in his home. In Sweden Aschberg is both a big media wheel and the head of EXPO, the local SPLC equivalent. Although not ethnically Swedish Bechir represented past generations of immigrans, who were much more integrated and assimilated, and resented the recent chaotic wave.

    http://www.friatider.se/medborgarjournalisten-bechir-rabani-d-d-efter-aschberg-bes-k

    https://www.nordfront.se/medborgarjournalisten-bechir-rabani-har-avlidit.smr

    Heller wrote one superlative novel- Catch 22-That belongs to the ages. The rest is just ordinary. That is the problem he has.

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    • Replies: @J.Ross
    Have you read God Knows?
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  31. WWII war criminal John Demjanjuk

    His conviction in Israel was overturned because it was shown the Jews who testified against him were lying mistaken — he was then extradited to Germany, a country whose judicial system has been corrupted by the ‘Holocaust’, and where ‘denying the Holocaust’ will get you imprisoned for ‘inciting racial hatred’ (of Jews) — there he was convicted of accessory to murder via the so-called Demjanjuk Abkommen/neue Rechtsauffassung, which eliminates the need for any actual evidence against the accused — he died there waiting for his appeal to be heard.

    Look it up.

    Just saying.

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    • Agree: Mr. Hack
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  32. @flyingtiger
    Heller wrote one superlative novel- Catch 22-That belongs to the ages. The rest is just ordinary. That is the problem he has.

    Have you read God Knows?

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  33. He’s still alive?

    Unrelatedly, the Hef sure chose the perfect time to pass on.

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    • LOL: eah
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  34. @Roderick Spode
    Philip Roth is a degenerate

    Today I will remind them

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  35. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @J.Ross
    Yes. Roth is rather pointedly Jewish, so it's easy to get distracted by that, but Roth's real central identity is as a navel-gazing boomer describing what he had for breakfast this morning and comparing it to what he breakfasted on as a kid.
    A certain amount of generationally tied stuff is just plain lost every year for reasons like slang, but I am frequently impressed when I read forgotten stuff from the Twenties or especially the Forties (the Forties might have been a kind of unique high point for American letters). A lot of it holds up much better than more recent material. Zappa (who deserves to be remembered more than Roth) warned about this closing loop of nostalgia.

    A certain amount of generationally tied stuff is just plain lost every year for reasons like slang, but I am frequently impressed when I read forgotten stuff from the Twenties or especially the Forties (the Forties might have been a kind of unique high point for American letters). A lot of it holds up much better than more recent material. Zappa (who deserves to be remembered more than Roth) warned about this closing loop of nostalgia.

    The problem is that the really good stuff stays underground while the mediocre stuff comes up again and again. The really good stuff tends to offend the status quo no matter what the status quo is and the mediocre gets stuffed in there again and again.

    In the sixties, Rudy Vallee and Eddie Peabody were playing college campuses. The seventies were the time of Happy Days , American Grafitti (it was set in ’62, which was mostly before The Sixties), and The Lords of Flatbush. Right now the eighties are in vogue again, it seems.

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    • Replies: @anon
    Right now the eighties are in vogue again, it seems.

    The eighties have been in vogue for a really long time. Remember that show Freaks and Geeks, that launched the career of James Franco and Seth Rogen? That was set in the early eighties, and the show was out twenty years ago.

    Seth Rogen's first movie was Donnie Darko, set in 1988, incidentally.

    And what's one of the biggest shows now? Stranger Things, also set in the early eighties.

    Eighties nostalgia has been going strong for twice as long as the eighties actually lasted. It's like our society decided that the eighties just really were the best time in America, when things basically peaked.

    I've had a theory for awhile now that eighties period films will always be around, because that's basically the last time you could count on your characters having no access to either cell phones or the internet. Both of those things tend to remove a lot of suspense from old-fashioned movie plots.
    , @Anonymous

    The seventies were the time of Happy Days , American Grafitti (it was set in ’62, which was mostly before The Sixties), and The Lords of Flatbush.
     
    Or, the Seventies were the time of the Ramones, David Bowie, Elvis Costello, and the Talking Heads. Depends on which Seventies you lived in, I guess. I've never even heard of The Lords of Flatbush.
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  36. @John Gruskos
    Why didn't Roth get a Nobel prize for literature?

    Probably because the judges read The Plot Against America. (Or at least tried to.)

    Probably because the judges read The Plot Against America.

    ??? When that came out, all the lefties were sure it was an allegory about G W Bush and the mortal danger he posed to democracy and everything else we hold dear.

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    • Replies: @Pericles
    Not to mention shitting on Scandinavian-American Charles Lindbergh. Astutely done, Mr Roth.
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  37. Alice Munro is a treasure. Is she one of the great artists alive? Read her if you haven’t yet.

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  38. Some Nobel laureates in literature were probably worthy of the honor. Many were not.

    I find it hard to take the award seriously given that neither Joseph Conrad nor Robert Graves won it.

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    • Replies: @Clyde

    I find it hard to take the award seriously given that neither Joseph Conrad nor Robert Graves won it.
     
    Graves semi-retired to a Greek isle. In his seventies he stayed in shape by walking eight miles a day. He did this by walking to the post office twice a day to check for mail. He lived to 90.
    , @daniel le mouche
    It only just started around the time of Conrad, didn't it? Graves definitely doesn't deserve it--a weirdo, a freak, an English aristocrat. What did he write? Poetry that very few have read. Shitloads of strange very opinionated pieces ABOUT poetry--tons of seemingly random likes and dislikes. Fuck that dude. Translated The 12 Caesars, did the rather trashy I Claudius. Never read 'King Jesus' or 'Wife to Mr. Milton', but who did, born after, say, 1960? I'll give you that he can be interesting, if maddening. 'Only one or two true poets are born in a century', or something like that. Say what? How the F do you know? Oh, yes of course, because you ARE one. Not just one, but THE one. Oh, and so was your dad, and your great friend Thomas Hardy. And all his 'muses' and little hangers-on.
    I say, the man pisses me off!
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  39. @J.Ross
    Did Joseph Heller get a Lit Nobel? Since when is Roth better or more influential than Heller?
    OT
    Swedish journalist of MENA descent Bechir Rabani claimed to have received major information about media mogul and aggressive leftist political activist Robert Aschberg. Aschberg's wife Lotta threatened to kill Bechir. Then Bechir was found dead in his home. In Sweden Aschberg is both a big media wheel and the head of EXPO, the local SPLC equivalent. Although not ethnically Swedish Bechir represented past generations of immigrans, who were much more integrated and assimilated, and resented the recent chaotic wave.

    http://www.friatider.se/medborgarjournalisten-bechir-rabani-d-d-efter-aschberg-bes-k

    https://www.nordfront.se/medborgarjournalisten-bechir-rabani-har-avlidit.smr

    I tend to be much more impressed by writers who have actually done something in their lives worth writing about. Joseph Heller fought in WWII – he flew 60 combat missions in a B-25. Likewise, Norman Mailer and Kurt Vonnegut were both combat veterans. War is certainly an intense experience. So many novelists now are just office drones – lit professors. They have known little of life at the extreme. Why should I particularly care what they think?

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    • Replies: @Anon
    I think Eugene Sledge deserves a Nobel Prize for a non-fiction book like With The Old Breed far more than any number of fiction writers working today, but you'll never be able to convince a silly, status quo-minded literary committee of that. It certainly would have been better giving it to Sledge than Dylan.
    , @guest
    What did Shakespeare do with his life? We barely know. Jane Austen? Nothing.

    Lives worth reading about may be worth reading about, but they're really neither here nor there regarding the ability to produce great writing. You can always steal interesting material.

    , @Anon
    They have known little of life at the extreme. Why should I particularly care what they think?

    Didn't Stephen Crane write RED BADGE OF COURAGE without having seen war?

    Sam Fuller served in WWII but he was less of a film-maker than Spielberg.
    , @njguy73

    Whenever aspiring writers ask me for advice, I usually tell ’em this:

    Don’t just write there, do something. Learn how to shingle a roof, or tap-dance, or raise sled dogs. Because if you don’t do anything, you wind up like Obama and Fineman – men for whom words are props and codes and metaphors but no longer expressive of anything real.
     
    Mark Steyn, 2010

    http://www.ocregister.com/2010/01/22/mark-steyn-browns-truckin-obama-shifts-into-reverse/
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  40. @Roderick Spode
    Philip Roth is a degenerate

    Translation, for non-bracket people: he’s a right-liberal Jew.

    In bracket people land, people don’t have ideologies, only races. And there is no such thing as being mixed race and having conflicting racial loyalties.

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  41. Thanks, Steve! Friday is sort of my day of liberation since I have a whole 48 extra hours to pack in the 12 hours of work my boss expects of me each day and goes over with a fine tooth comb the next morning (hate scrum meetings! hate the agile model!) And so I got a little giddy and may have hogged the comments boards, making a bit of a nuisance of myself. Glad at least some of it was not unappreciated!

    Thanks as well for all the suggestions on other great authors! Am making a resolution to read at least one thing by each (Handke, Murakami, Cormac McCarthy & Houellebecq) in 2018. Would also (counter-)recommend John Fante, an Italian-American author who touched on a lot of the same assimilation themes as Roth and- much more importantly- provided the pretext for Salma Hayek’s last full frontal nude scene when they posthumously filmed his masterpiece about 10 years back ;-)

    I can understand Roth not being to a lot of the people’s tastes here, but if you like CURB YOUR ENTHUSIASM or think Louis CK is hilarioius you owe it to yourselves to read Roth’s comedic masterpieces PORTNOY’S COMPLAINT or SABBATH’S THEATER. And his later great works (COUNTERLIFE, OPERATION SHYLOCK, AMERICAN PASTORAL) are hardly ‘Jew-y’ at all, instead exploring the playgrounds of meta-fiction that was all the rage in the 80′s in a way I think still holds up.

    Regardless, though, there is no denying Roth’s shockingly sudden re-relevance this year. To paraphrase Johnson, if you are tired of Roth you must be tired of 2017. Marc Zuckerberg, despite clearly being on the autism spectrum, became one of the most successful men of his generation with a good shot now (ugh!) at the Presidency by stumbling on the goldmine of female emotional porn and monopolizing it w/Facebook (can still recall my post-menopausal sister-in-law wasting half her day fretting why no one had liked her like of someone else’s like). Well, now the formerly-punchline Winklevoss Brothers are billionaires too, and they did it through betting big and betting early on Bitcoin.

    Roth similarly bet big and bet early on the ridiculously narrow and unlikely subject matter of 50 and 60+ year old Jewish men and their libido issues, not exactly the smart money choice at the end of your career when you should be writing one for the ages. And yet here we are. Non-stop talking about the putz of 65-year old Harvey Weinstein and where it’s been, or 59-year old Matt Lauer and where his has been, or 65-year old Leon Wieseltier and where little Leo’s been (and remember- Leon helped set the Middle East on fire on the last fumes of a sewing machine fortune; imagine what he could have done if he’d kept it zipped and was now at the helm of a magazine getting a slice of every iPhone sold on earth!)

    And this is hardly a parochial matter! Bibi Netanyahu- by far the greatest statesman of his age; a veritable second founding father of his nation who’s been in power longer than Putin but with real elections and is about to settle the Palestinian/West Bank issue which once roiled SJW’s MORE than even Apartheid in an entirely one-sided and to-his-liking manner if only the college campuses and GUARDIAN and German Green Party can be kept barking a bit longer about Trump and Muslim bans and Confederate statues and racis’ Halloween costumes- well, his life’s work could be suddenly unraveled because of one man’s Fern Sully obsession? Harvey Weinstein (and let’s not kid ourselves this would not be what it is if he looked like Paul Newman at 65) is now a Twitter meme with photos of him creeping on movie starlets juxtaposed with Belle Epoque anti-Semitic caricatures of Vienna theater pimps leading Tirolian milkmaids to their ruin, and making the anti-Semitic vintage caricature look moderate by comparison. In other words he is the Guernica painting, the Kim Phuc napalm girl photo, the hairy-ass naked Arab prisoner pyramid of his time and could roil Jewish self-image, attitudes towards Jews in Western countries, and perhaps even Israel’s grand strategy, in ways we can’t begin to imagine. How absurd! How ridiculous! How entirely Roth!

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    • Replies: @Pericles
    " if you like CURB YOUR ENTHUSIASM or think Louis CK is hilarioius you owe it to yourselves to read Roth’s comedic masterpieces"

    (Protagonist does the Jewish Hello into a piece of liver and later names his shiksa Monkey. Howls of laughter. Though in all fairness I suppose a Gentile would be unable to get something like that published.)

    It's possible interesting things could be written about the American Jew, always a victim, always hounded by endemic Nazi forces in whatever country he enters, yet also always heroic, always struggling to enter and subvert gentile country clubs and promote open borders (except for Israel). But it probably needs an outsider to make it interesting. Maybe there's a shiksa wife of a literary bent somewhere.
    , @Cloud of Probable Matricide
    IMHO, The Brotherhood of the Grape is Fante’s masterpiece.
    , @Jack D
    Great novelists are literally the prophets of our age. They write about what is going to happen before it actually happens. Because they have their finger so precisely on the pulse of the Zeitgeist, real life later necessarily conjures up the characters and incidents that they prophecy. In Bonfire of the Vanities, the fictional Rev. Bacon was not based on the real life Rev. Sharpton. Wolfe wrote about it first and reality then inevitably conjured the incident that Wolfe had predicted. He could not have told you exactly where and when this would happen in real life, but just as a chemist knows that if you happen to mix certain chemicals together an explosion will happen, Wolfe knew what the hot buttons of our age were. And not just in broad terms (they are the same always - you don't have to be a genius to say, race, sex, ethnicity, etc. - these are ALWAYS the hot buttons) but with detailed precision.

    Roth is such a writer. Like Wolfe, he is not perfect. They are both very uneven - some of their novels are duds, some are masterpieces. Some of their characters are cardboard cutouts, some of their dialog is unlike human conversation. They also share the attribute of being (thus far) unfilmable. Perversely, this is another sign of greatness. Great art cannot be readily translated into another medium without losing its greatness. Once in a while, a great film artist gets his hands on a great novel and produces something worthwhile, but it's rare.

    Any fool can invent a story. Courtney Milan spits out romance novels by the dozen and no one mistakes them for great art. But to write a work of prophecy (and not just once but repeatedly - anyone can get lucky once) is a sign of greatness. And Roth's personal degeneracy or lack thereof is completely irrelevant. God likes to play jokes on humans and one of his favorite jokes is that he bestows great talent on buffoons, degenerates, idiot savants, ugly dwarfs, etc. (sometimes all concentrated in one person - I'm talking about you, Roman Polanski) . In the fictional Amadeus (but not in real life) Salieri is literally driven insane by this fact. Don't confuse the art with the artist.
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  42. @Roderick Spode
    Philip Roth is a degenerate

    Philip Roth is a degenerate

    I didn’t know the old pervert was still alive. Wonders never cease.

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  43. RE: the topic of civility a while back, Roth was as brutal a critic of Jewish manners as anyone on this board:

    There’s an expression in English, “Good morning”, or so I have been told; the phrase has never been of any particular use to me. At breakfast I am in fact known to the other boarders as “Mr. Sourball” and “The Crab”. But suddenly, here in Iowa, in imitation of the local inhabitants, I am transformed into a veritable geyser of good mornings. “Good morning”, he says, and now it occurs to me that the word “morning” as he uses it, refers specifically to the hours between eight A.M. and twelve noon. He wants the hours between eight and twelve to be good, which is to say, enjoyable, pleasurable, beneficial! We are all of us wishing each other four hours of pleasure and accomplishment. Why, that’s terrific! Hey, that’s very nice! Good morning! My God! The English language is a a form of communication! Conversation isn’t just crossfire where you shoot and get shot at! Where you’ve got to duck for your life and aim to kill! Word aren’t only bombs and bullets- no, they’re little gifts, containing meanings!

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    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    That seems to be a non-Western immigrant characteristic, rather than a uniquely Jewish one. Simon Kuper wrote that Zlatan Ibrahimović's family was similarly grouchy at breakfast, as I mentioned in this comment last year.
    , @candid_observer
    One of the things I miss about the old timey Jews is the constant and loud disagreement about all variety of ideas.

    I remember a time in NYC in intellectual circles where the thing to do for educated Jews was to debate ideas just for the pure pleasure of the sport. Pretty much nothing was beyond discussion. It seemed a natural extension of Talmudic argument.

    Now the vast majority of Jews seem capable only of asserting their faithful allegiance to one set of ideas, and finding creative ways to shut down discussion.

    Don't know how this happened, exactly.

    Where are the old Jews? I thought they were a pretty good thing when it came to intellectual ferment.

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  44. anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous

    A certain amount of generationally tied stuff is just plain lost every year for reasons like slang, but I am frequently impressed when I read forgotten stuff from the Twenties or especially the Forties (the Forties might have been a kind of unique high point for American letters). A lot of it holds up much better than more recent material. Zappa (who deserves to be remembered more than Roth) warned about this closing loop of nostalgia.
     
    The problem is that the really good stuff stays underground while the mediocre stuff comes up again and again. The really good stuff tends to offend the status quo no matter what the status quo is and the mediocre gets stuffed in there again and again.

    In the sixties, Rudy Vallee and Eddie Peabody were playing college campuses. The seventies were the time of Happy Days , American Grafitti (it was set in '62, which was mostly before The Sixties), and The Lords of Flatbush. Right now the eighties are in vogue again, it seems.

    Right now the eighties are in vogue again, it seems.

    The eighties have been in vogue for a really long time. Remember that show Freaks and Geeks, that launched the career of James Franco and Seth Rogen? That was set in the early eighties, and the show was out twenty years ago.

    Seth Rogen’s first movie was Donnie Darko, set in 1988, incidentally.

    And what’s one of the biggest shows now? Stranger Things, also set in the early eighties.

    Eighties nostalgia has been going strong for twice as long as the eighties actually lasted. It’s like our society decided that the eighties just really were the best time in America, when things basically peaked.

    I’ve had a theory for awhile now that eighties period films will always be around, because that’s basically the last time you could count on your characters having no access to either cell phones or the internet. Both of those things tend to remove a lot of suspense from old-fashioned movie plots.

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    • Replies: @Mr. Anon

    I’ve had a theory for awhile now that eighties period films will always be around, because that’s basically the last time you could count on your characters having no access to either cell phones or the internet. Both of those things tend to remove a lot of suspense from old-fashioned movie plots.
     
    I agree. It was also before the widespread adoption of computers. I remember - it was in the mid-to-late nineties sometime, when film-makers decided that it was nerve-wrackingly suspenseful to watch people copy files from a hard-drive. They're still doing it - having their characters watch the bars fill up, or a percent counter run up to 100. I find it boring as all get out. It's about as suspenseful as installing the latest version of Adobe Acrobat.
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  45. @Abe
    RE: the topic of civility a while back, Roth was as brutal a critic of Jewish manners as anyone on this board:

    There's an expression in English, "Good morning", or so I have been told; the phrase has never been of any particular use to me. At breakfast I am in fact known to the other boarders as "Mr. Sourball" and "The Crab". But suddenly, here in Iowa, in imitation of the local inhabitants, I am transformed into a veritable geyser of good mornings. "Good morning", he says, and now it occurs to me that the word "morning" as he uses it, refers specifically to the hours between eight A.M. and twelve noon. He wants the hours between eight and twelve to be good, which is to say, enjoyable, pleasurable, beneficial! We are all of us wishing each other four hours of pleasure and accomplishment. Why, that's terrific! Hey, that's very nice! Good morning! My God! The English language is a a form of communication! Conversation isn't just crossfire where you shoot and get shot at! Where you've got to duck for your life and aim to kill! Word aren't only bombs and bullets- no, they're little gifts, containing meanings!
     

    That seems to be a non-Western immigrant characteristic, rather than a uniquely Jewish one. Simon Kuper wrote that Zlatan Ibrahimović’s family was similarly grouchy at breakfast, as I mentioned in this comment last year.

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    • Replies: @Pericles
    Well, I suppose grouchiness, nastiness and paranoia is natural if you grow up as a troll surrounded by trolls.

    Simon Kuper, in case anyone wonders, is a rootless Jewish journalist drifting in from Africa but with the usual battery of attitudes. Love the objectification of blondes from such a sensitive PC guy though. "A chicken in every migrant pot and a blonde in every migrant bed!"
    , @TheUmpteenthGermanOnHere
    It was, in fact, also a characteristic of my family (well, the male side of it), who were refugees fleeing from Prussia to West Germany at the end of WWII. I think the qualification "non-western" wouldn't be appropriate in that context. Family mythology implied that "life in the old country" had been better, but I cannot verify that. I imagine it was different. It certainly was rural rather than suburban, but that cannot account for any mood changes effected by the relocation, as other branches of the family settled in more rural areas of Western Germany without being any less nostalgic and Heimweh-afflicted. (Personally, however, I definitely prefer recollections of the part of my childhood spent in the countryside over those harking back to suburban living. So there is that.)
    , @stillCARealist
    I suspect morning grouchiness is more related the frequency of hangovers. A good night of sober sleep can really work wonders for people. That, and getting plenty of protein in one's breakfast.
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  46. Shikses! In winter, when the polio germs are hibernating and I can bank upon surviving outside of an iron lung until the end of the school year, I ice-skate on the lake in Irvington Park. . . . I skate round and round in circles behind the shikses who live in Irvington. . . But the shikses, ah, the shikses are something else again. Between the smell of damp sawdust and wet wool in the overheated boathouse, and the sight of their fresh cold blond hair spilling out of their kerchiefs and caps, I am ecstatic. Amidst these flushed and giggling girls, I lace up my skates with weak, trembling fingers, and then out into the cold and after them I move, down the wooden gangplank on my toes and off onto the ice behind a fluttering covey of them — a nosegay of shikses, a garland of gentile girls. I am so awed that I am in a state of desire beyond a hard-on. My circumcised little dong is simply shriveled up with veneration. . . . How do they get so gorgeous, so healthy, so blond? My contempt for what they believe in is more than neutralized by my adoration of the way they look, the way they move and laugh and speak — the lives they must lead behind those goyische curtains! Maybe a pride of shikses is more like it . . .

    So: dusk on the frozen lake of a city park, skating behind the puffy red earmuffs and the fluttering yellow ringlet of a strange shikse teaches me the meaning of the word longing. It is almost more than an angry thirteen-year-old little Jewish Momma’s Boy can bear. Forgive the luxuriating, but these are probably the most poignant hours of my life I’m talking about — I learn the meaning of the word longing, I learn the meaning of the word pang. There go the darling things dashing up the embankment, clattering along the shoveled walk between the evergreens . . . I want Jane Powell too, God damn it! And Corliss and Veronica. I too want to be the boyfriend of Debbie Reynolds — it’s the Eddie Fisher in me coming out, that’s all, the longing in all us swarthy Jewboys for those bland blond exotics called shikses . . .

    I was on the staff of the House subcommittee investigating the television scandals. . . . and then of course that extra bonus, Charlatan Van Doren. Such character, such brains and breeding, that candor and schoolboyish charm — the ur-WASP, wouldn’t you say? And turns out he’s a fake. Well, what do you know about that, Gentile America? Supergoy, a gonif! Steals money. Covets money. Wants money, will do anything for it. Goodness gracious me, almost as bad as Jews — you sanctimonious WASPs!

    Yes, I was one happy yiddel down there in Washington, a little Stern gang of my own, busily exploding Charlie’s honor and integrity, while simultaneously becoming lover to that aristocratic Yankee beauty whose forebears arrived on these shores in the seventeenth century. Phenomenon known as Hating Your Goy and Eating One Too.

    Roth’s novels are resentment-driven sexual fantasies about defiling white women. How any white man manages to read this drivel, which is not only disgusting but also expresses constant racial hatred for our people, is beyond me. It’s the literary equivalent of cuck porn.

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  47. @Anon
    Finally, the solution to all problems.

    INTERSECTIONAL FEMINISM.

    Men, gentile or Jewish, need to hook up with Interfems and do like Lara Witt says.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgOT4m_nh_4&feature=youtu.be

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  48. @International Jew

    Probably because the judges read The Plot Against America.
     
    ??? When that came out, all the lefties were sure it was an allegory about G W Bush and the mortal danger he posed to democracy and everything else we hold dear.

    Not to mention shitting on Scandinavian-American Charles Lindbergh. Astutely done, Mr Roth.

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  49. @Mr. Anon
    Some Nobel laureates in literature were probably worthy of the honor. Many were not.

    I find it hard to take the award seriously given that neither Joseph Conrad nor Robert Graves won it.

    I find it hard to take the award seriously given that neither Joseph Conrad nor Robert Graves won it.

    Graves semi-retired to a Greek isle. In his seventies he stayed in shape by walking eight miles a day. He did this by walking to the post office twice a day to check for mail. He lived to 90.

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    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
    Interesting. He was an interesting character. Have you read his WWI memoir, Goodbye To All That? Well worth it.
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  50. @Abe
    Thanks, Steve! Friday is sort of my day of liberation since I have a whole 48 extra hours to pack in the 12 hours of work my boss expects of me each day and goes over with a fine tooth comb the next morning (hate scrum meetings! hate the agile model!) And so I got a little giddy and may have hogged the comments boards, making a bit of a nuisance of myself. Glad at least some of it was not unappreciated!

    Thanks as well for all the suggestions on other great authors! Am making a resolution to read at least one thing by each (Handke, Murakami, Cormac McCarthy & Houellebecq) in 2018. Would also (counter-)recommend John Fante, an Italian-American author who touched on a lot of the same assimilation themes as Roth and- much more importantly- provided the pretext for Salma Hayek's last full frontal nude scene when they posthumously filmed his masterpiece about 10 years back ;-)

    I can understand Roth not being to a lot of the people's tastes here, but if you like CURB YOUR ENTHUSIASM or think Louis CK is hilarioius you owe it to yourselves to read Roth's comedic masterpieces PORTNOY'S COMPLAINT or SABBATH'S THEATER. And his later great works (COUNTERLIFE, OPERATION SHYLOCK, AMERICAN PASTORAL) are hardly 'Jew-y' at all, instead exploring the playgrounds of meta-fiction that was all the rage in the 80's in a way I think still holds up.

    Regardless, though, there is no denying Roth's shockingly sudden re-relevance this year. To paraphrase Johnson, if you are tired of Roth you must be tired of 2017. Marc Zuckerberg, despite clearly being on the autism spectrum, became one of the most successful men of his generation with a good shot now (ugh!) at the Presidency by stumbling on the goldmine of female emotional porn and monopolizing it w/Facebook (can still recall my post-menopausal sister-in-law wasting half her day fretting why no one had liked her like of someone else's like). Well, now the formerly-punchline Winklevoss Brothers are billionaires too, and they did it through betting big and betting early on Bitcoin.

    Roth similarly bet big and bet early on the ridiculously narrow and unlikely subject matter of 50 and 60+ year old Jewish men and their libido issues, not exactly the smart money choice at the end of your career when you should be writing one for the ages. And yet here we are. Non-stop talking about the putz of 65-year old Harvey Weinstein and where it's been, or 59-year old Matt Lauer and where his has been, or 65-year old Leon Wieseltier and where little Leo's been (and remember- Leon helped set the Middle East on fire on the last fumes of a sewing machine fortune; imagine what he could have done if he'd kept it zipped and was now at the helm of a magazine getting a slice of every iPhone sold on earth!)

    And this is hardly a parochial matter! Bibi Netanyahu- by far the greatest statesman of his age; a veritable second founding father of his nation who's been in power longer than Putin but with real elections and is about to settle the Palestinian/West Bank issue which once roiled SJW's MORE than even Apartheid in an entirely one-sided and to-his-liking manner if only the college campuses and GUARDIAN and German Green Party can be kept barking a bit longer about Trump and Muslim bans and Confederate statues and racis' Halloween costumes- well, his life's work could be suddenly unraveled because of one man's Fern Sully obsession? Harvey Weinstein (and let's not kid ourselves this would not be what it is if he looked like Paul Newman at 65) is now a Twitter meme with photos of him creeping on movie starlets juxtaposed with Belle Epoque anti-Semitic caricatures of Vienna theater pimps leading Tirolian milkmaids to their ruin, and making the anti-Semitic vintage caricature look moderate by comparison. In other words he is the Guernica painting, the Kim Phuc napalm girl photo, the hairy-ass naked Arab prisoner pyramid of his time and could roil Jewish self-image, attitudes towards Jews in Western countries, and perhaps even Israel's grand strategy, in ways we can't begin to imagine. How absurd! How ridiculous! How entirely Roth!

    ” if you like CURB YOUR ENTHUSIASM or think Louis CK is hilarioius you owe it to yourselves to read Roth’s comedic masterpieces”

    (Protagonist does the Jewish Hello into a piece of liver and later names his shiksa Monkey. Howls of laughter. Though in all fairness I suppose a Gentile would be unable to get something like that published.)

    It’s possible interesting things could be written about the American Jew, always a victim, always hounded by endemic Nazi forces in whatever country he enters, yet also always heroic, always struggling to enter and subvert gentile country clubs and promote open borders (except for Israel). But it probably needs an outsider to make it interesting. Maybe there’s a shiksa wife of a literary bent somewhere.

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    • Replies: @YetAnotherAnon
    "Maybe there’s a shiksa wife of a literary bent somewhere."

    Surely there is, and surely we've all read her tweets - Louise Mensch, nee Bagshawe.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louise_Mensch#Bibliography
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  51. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Anon
    Or Dylan?,

    Because Dylan is a songwriter and because song lyrics aren't same as poetry, I can understand the problem.

    BUT, he is the prophet of his era and his best work was pure genius on both musical and literary level.

    Have to agree with you, even though I sometimes find him and his work objectionable. So what? His greatest work is nothing short of stunning. I can’t even explain him. Who can explain the occurrence of genius?

    Meanwhile, Alice Munro won the Nobel Prize? I had no idea, and I was happier when I had no idea.

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    • Agree: Malcolm X-Lax
    • Replies: @Malcolm X-Lax
    Whenever I hear Hurricane off Desire I think: This is why Plato would ban poets from the Republic. By the end of the song, you’re almost convinced that a grave injustice was done to a great man, which of course is a load of horseshit.
    , @HunInTheSun
    The Canadian WASP Gordon Lightfoot is better than Dylan, some of whose work is pretentious (Tarantula) or overwrought and dated ("Blowin' in the Wind"). Lightfoot has suffered as an alien to the East Coast rock critics for whom Mr. Zimmerman is kin, countryman and political polestar.

    Lightfoot's "The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald" will be sung long after Bob Dylan is little more than a footnote to the history of 60s political upheaval in the U. S.

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  52. @Dave Pinsen
    That seems to be a non-Western immigrant characteristic, rather than a uniquely Jewish one. Simon Kuper wrote that Zlatan Ibrahimović's family was similarly grouchy at breakfast, as I mentioned in this comment last year.

    Well, I suppose grouchiness, nastiness and paranoia is natural if you grow up as a troll surrounded by trolls.

    Simon Kuper, in case anyone wonders, is a rootless Jewish journalist drifting in from Africa but with the usual battery of attitudes. Love the objectification of blondes from such a sensitive PC guy though. “A chicken in every migrant pot and a blonde in every migrant bed!”

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  53. @Anon
    I notice Roth has some reviewing problems on Amazon. My rule of thumb for judging books on that site is that if a book's total of 1 & 2 star reviews starts reaching around 20%, the book is an absolute stinker. 10% is okay, because 10% is pretty meaningless (sort of the way 10% undecided on any survey means you just asked some dumb people), but 20% means you've got perceptive readers who think the author is a blockhead. Roth has several books with bad reviews reaching the 20% range.

    Undoubtedly some people think Roth deserves an award just because he's been around a long time. This is a common phenomenon, whereby ordinary minds praise writers because they're 'The Guy They've Read,' when they were younger, and these persons haven't done enough reading since to gain any critical perspective. This is why that talentless hack Stephen King is being lauded as a classic writer by bozos who ought to know better.

    'The Guy They've Read' syndrome is an absolute plague in fiction. When the Armed Services gave away 155,000-odd books of The Great Gatsby to GIs in World War II, a book that sold all of 153 copies in its first two years after publication, that stupid little book entered the American literary canon and stuck there like a fork in the eyeball instead dying the quiet death it deserved, because a lot of guys with 100-point IQs read it and very little else in their adult life, so they were overly impressed by it.

    Sadly, I must agree. Finally got around to reading Gatsby this year and was mighty disappointed. In addition to being bored and afflicted with rolling eyes what with the tired stereotypes Fitzgerald used for characters. This Side of Paradise was better, or I was younger, or both.

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  54. @Abe
    Thanks, Steve! Friday is sort of my day of liberation since I have a whole 48 extra hours to pack in the 12 hours of work my boss expects of me each day and goes over with a fine tooth comb the next morning (hate scrum meetings! hate the agile model!) And so I got a little giddy and may have hogged the comments boards, making a bit of a nuisance of myself. Glad at least some of it was not unappreciated!

    Thanks as well for all the suggestions on other great authors! Am making a resolution to read at least one thing by each (Handke, Murakami, Cormac McCarthy & Houellebecq) in 2018. Would also (counter-)recommend John Fante, an Italian-American author who touched on a lot of the same assimilation themes as Roth and- much more importantly- provided the pretext for Salma Hayek's last full frontal nude scene when they posthumously filmed his masterpiece about 10 years back ;-)

    I can understand Roth not being to a lot of the people's tastes here, but if you like CURB YOUR ENTHUSIASM or think Louis CK is hilarioius you owe it to yourselves to read Roth's comedic masterpieces PORTNOY'S COMPLAINT or SABBATH'S THEATER. And his later great works (COUNTERLIFE, OPERATION SHYLOCK, AMERICAN PASTORAL) are hardly 'Jew-y' at all, instead exploring the playgrounds of meta-fiction that was all the rage in the 80's in a way I think still holds up.

    Regardless, though, there is no denying Roth's shockingly sudden re-relevance this year. To paraphrase Johnson, if you are tired of Roth you must be tired of 2017. Marc Zuckerberg, despite clearly being on the autism spectrum, became one of the most successful men of his generation with a good shot now (ugh!) at the Presidency by stumbling on the goldmine of female emotional porn and monopolizing it w/Facebook (can still recall my post-menopausal sister-in-law wasting half her day fretting why no one had liked her like of someone else's like). Well, now the formerly-punchline Winklevoss Brothers are billionaires too, and they did it through betting big and betting early on Bitcoin.

    Roth similarly bet big and bet early on the ridiculously narrow and unlikely subject matter of 50 and 60+ year old Jewish men and their libido issues, not exactly the smart money choice at the end of your career when you should be writing one for the ages. And yet here we are. Non-stop talking about the putz of 65-year old Harvey Weinstein and where it's been, or 59-year old Matt Lauer and where his has been, or 65-year old Leon Wieseltier and where little Leo's been (and remember- Leon helped set the Middle East on fire on the last fumes of a sewing machine fortune; imagine what he could have done if he'd kept it zipped and was now at the helm of a magazine getting a slice of every iPhone sold on earth!)

    And this is hardly a parochial matter! Bibi Netanyahu- by far the greatest statesman of his age; a veritable second founding father of his nation who's been in power longer than Putin but with real elections and is about to settle the Palestinian/West Bank issue which once roiled SJW's MORE than even Apartheid in an entirely one-sided and to-his-liking manner if only the college campuses and GUARDIAN and German Green Party can be kept barking a bit longer about Trump and Muslim bans and Confederate statues and racis' Halloween costumes- well, his life's work could be suddenly unraveled because of one man's Fern Sully obsession? Harvey Weinstein (and let's not kid ourselves this would not be what it is if he looked like Paul Newman at 65) is now a Twitter meme with photos of him creeping on movie starlets juxtaposed with Belle Epoque anti-Semitic caricatures of Vienna theater pimps leading Tirolian milkmaids to their ruin, and making the anti-Semitic vintage caricature look moderate by comparison. In other words he is the Guernica painting, the Kim Phuc napalm girl photo, the hairy-ass naked Arab prisoner pyramid of his time and could roil Jewish self-image, attitudes towards Jews in Western countries, and perhaps even Israel's grand strategy, in ways we can't begin to imagine. How absurd! How ridiculous! How entirely Roth!

    IMHO, The Brotherhood of the Grape is Fante’s masterpiece.

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  55. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous

    A certain amount of generationally tied stuff is just plain lost every year for reasons like slang, but I am frequently impressed when I read forgotten stuff from the Twenties or especially the Forties (the Forties might have been a kind of unique high point for American letters). A lot of it holds up much better than more recent material. Zappa (who deserves to be remembered more than Roth) warned about this closing loop of nostalgia.
     
    The problem is that the really good stuff stays underground while the mediocre stuff comes up again and again. The really good stuff tends to offend the status quo no matter what the status quo is and the mediocre gets stuffed in there again and again.

    In the sixties, Rudy Vallee and Eddie Peabody were playing college campuses. The seventies were the time of Happy Days , American Grafitti (it was set in '62, which was mostly before The Sixties), and The Lords of Flatbush. Right now the eighties are in vogue again, it seems.

    The seventies were the time of Happy Days , American Grafitti (it was set in ’62, which was mostly before The Sixties), and The Lords of Flatbush.

    Or, the Seventies were the time of the Ramones, David Bowie, Elvis Costello, and the Talking Heads. Depends on which Seventies you lived in, I guess. I’ve never even heard of The Lords of Flatbush.

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  56. @Anonymous
    Jews like Howard Stern, Ron Jeremy, Al Goldstein, Kinky Friedman et al are my favorite kind of Jews. They act as a walking, talking artificial horizon giving insight into every Jewish neurosis, fixation, et al, there is.

    Philip Roth is such a Jew.

    Kinky Friedman is a star.

    I want to visit him at his loft and listen to the thumping caused by the leaping of the UmpaLumpas in Winnie Katz’s Lesbian Dance Class upstairs. (That concept alone deserves a Nobel prize).

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    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Yeah, I remember that analogy in one of his murder mysteries.

    I saw him in concert several times in Houston in the 1970s. Kinky had been a summer camp counselor for my friend at Rice, Ronny.

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  57. @J.Ross
    Yes. Roth is rather pointedly Jewish, so it's easy to get distracted by that, but Roth's real central identity is as a navel-gazing boomer describing what he had for breakfast this morning and comparing it to what he breakfasted on as a kid.
    A certain amount of generationally tied stuff is just plain lost every year for reasons like slang, but I am frequently impressed when I read forgotten stuff from the Twenties or especially the Forties (the Forties might have been a kind of unique high point for American letters). A lot of it holds up much better than more recent material. Zappa (who deserves to be remembered more than Roth) warned about this closing loop of nostalgia.

    Hey, Frank Zappa remebered – plus one of his quite interesting thoughts. I’m delighted.

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  58. @Cortes
    Kinky Friedman is a star.

    I want to visit him at his loft and listen to the thumping caused by the leaping of the UmpaLumpas in Winnie Katz’s Lesbian Dance Class upstairs. (That concept alone deserves a Nobel prize).

    Yeah, I remember that analogy in one of his murder mysteries.

    I saw him in concert several times in Houston in the 1970s. Kinky had been a summer camp counselor for my friend at Rice, Ronny.

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  59. This comment seems to follow Larry David’s in basic structure:

    Weinstein is a Jew.
    Here, see some other famous Jews.
    So smart, so talented!
    Aren’t Jews great?
    Alas, antisemitites everywhere.

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  60. @Anon
    Philip Roth is a degenerate

    True, but human condition is partly degenerate.

    The thing is Roth has been a thinking and troubled writer of degeneracy. There is a conflict, a struggle, a wrestling with problems of modernity.

    That's all we can ask for in an artist. Now, Roth as a human being or ideologue may offend people, but art has value beyond morality and politics.

    Why have the two Roth books I’ve read touched me so? Why have they spoke to the matters of my life?

    If Roth is a degenerate than so am I..

    Better to admit we are all fallen from grace and could use more than a little soul searching.

    That’s why I read Roth.

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  61. And yet despite losing relevancy over the last 10-20 years, who is now the most prophetic, ribald, visionary grand old man of letters on the planet (OK, maybe Houellebecq, but the translated excerpts I’ve seen have left me cold;


    Jean Raspail
    is still very much alive. Houellebecq by comparison is mealy-mouthed and forty years too late. Roth has very little of interest for white Gentiles.

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  62. OT OT OT
    It is illegal for you to extort someone. The exception is that lawyers can legally engage in extortion. So hire a lawyer to put on the squeeze, though in the case below this backfired.

    NINE Million Dollar Baby! Oscar winner Paul Haggis files a lawsuit against woman ‘extorting him over fake rape’ claiming he couldn’t have attacked her because he had a bad back and had to wear a brace
    The director and screenwriter says he was recently approached by an attorney
    The attorney says he represents a woman named Haleigh Breest who said that Haggis committed an act of ‘gender violence’ against her five years ago (lulz)
    Haggis said after he contacted the attorney, he demanded $9million to drop the litigation http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5185155/Paul-Haggis-files-lawsuit-against-alleged-blackmailer.html

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  63. @Dave Pinsen
    That seems to be a non-Western immigrant characteristic, rather than a uniquely Jewish one. Simon Kuper wrote that Zlatan Ibrahimović's family was similarly grouchy at breakfast, as I mentioned in this comment last year.

    It was, in fact, also a characteristic of my family (well, the male side of it), who were refugees fleeing from Prussia to West Germany at the end of WWII. I think the qualification “non-western” wouldn’t be appropriate in that context. Family mythology implied that “life in the old country” had been better, but I cannot verify that. I imagine it was different. It certainly was rural rather than suburban, but that cannot account for any mood changes effected by the relocation, as other branches of the family settled in more rural areas of Western Germany without being any less nostalgic and Heimweh-afflicted. (Personally, however, I definitely prefer recollections of the part of my childhood spent in the countryside over those harking back to suburban living. So there is that.)

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  64. @Anonymous
    "Dustin Hoffman Allegedly Exposed Himself To A Minor, Assaulted 2 Women"
    "One of the accusers was a good friend of his daughter's."

    https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/dustin-hoffman-exposed-minor_us_5a32fcd3e4b01d429cc74c5f

    “Dustin Hoffman Allegedly Exposed Himself To A Minor,”

    Okay, no idea whether this event occurred, any validity to this story.

    But the mechanics “Exposed Himself,” well you see this over, and over.

    Who the hell does this? I mean if I were going to sexually harass someone I’d tell them something like “If you don’t sleep with me, I’m giving this promotion to someone else. Meet me at the C-Ya-Later motel down by the interstate, it has hourly rates.”

    So what, how does just exposing your genitalia become something someone wants to do? Just don’t get it.

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  65. ‘but I am frequently impressed when I read forgotten stuff from the Twenties or especially the Forties (the Forties might have been a kind of unique high point for American letters). ‘

    When I was in graduate school in one of the arts and sciences, i would often have to actually browse the stacks of a big state university. And while doing that I would often browse the books on my chosen topic-which ranged from yesterday’s thesis to books back to perhaps 1850 or so (rarely that old,but late 1800’s was common).

    Victorian era (say 1880-1920) was clearly the superior era for writing. Almost every book (that I would encounter) from that era was written clearly and logically, but compellingly. I was ‘interesting’ to pick up a book at random, and just read paragraphs at a random spot-the argument leaps out, and the style engages you. The author was making an argument, but also doing so in an ‘artful’ and logical manner. These would have been history or sociology or political science books; not literature (where perhaps that logical structure would have been unengaging), and not scientific theses (where the lack of scientific rigor would have been not defensible).

    Before this era, the language was florid and distant enough to seem slightly alien (think of Abraham Lincoln’s speeches). In the modern era, everyone (historians, philosophers, sociologists) feels compelled to write according to the scientific method-thus, you have the pseudo- scientific jargon of modern academic writing ( or, alternately, post-modern gibberish).

    But my anecdotal experience supports the thesis that the Victorian Era was the high point of Western culture and civilization.

    joe

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    • Replies: @Anon
    I've read a lot of Victorian nonfiction and agree with you heartily. There are many classics of their genres languishing because they're no longer PC, but whose ideas are perfectly sound. The Victorians were the first people to write about everything. The whole world was interesting to them, and you can find a Victorian book that is 'the first basic book' about practically every subject in existence. Personally, I like Victorian travel books because they don't sugarcoat, and they're more truthful about what they encountered and closer to the era of strange, untouched aboriginal cultures.
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  66. I have read several by Munro and her body of work is consistently excellent, most worthy of the Nobel. Roth’s writing I find intriguing but also perverse and hard to suffer through in parts. But he did reveal the dark side of the 60s in American Pastoral in a very memorable way with some images that are still with me, especially how devastating it was for the prior generation to lose their children to the radicals. Now reading Wolfe’s Radical Chic about Leonard Bernstein’s dinner for the Black Panthers. It is amazing how shallow these people are, and also how virtue signaling has literally been with us since the 60s.

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  67. @Roderick Spode
    Philip Roth is a degenerate

    If we got rid of all the great artists and writers who were degenerates, the museums and libraries would be mostly empty. It’s possible to criticize Roth but not to just dismiss him with those 3 words.

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    • Replies: @Anon
    If we got rid of all the great artists and writers who were degenerates, the museums and libraries would be mostly empty. It’s possible to criticize Roth but not to just dismiss him with those 3 words.

    This is true. Also, one man's degeneracy is another man's health. To some uptight people, the films of Shohei Imamura may seem degenerate, but Imamura thought of it as health. His famous statement: his films are about the lower half of Japanese society and lower half of the human body. He was about raw vital existence and survival, lust and appetite. Still, he understood the dark side of the animal and brutish side of man. The id could make people feel freer but also more barbaric and obsessive.

    Philip Roth cited the vulgarian Celine as a key influence. Celine was labeled as a notorious anti-semite, but Roth was profoundly influenced by him. Likewise, Isaac Bashevis Singer was greatly influenced by another anti-semite Knut Hamsun.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knut_Hamsun

    Isaac Bashevis Singer called Hamsun "the father of the modern school of literature in his every aspect—his subjectiveness, his fragmentariness, his use of flashbacks, his lyricism. The whole modern school of fiction in the twentieth century stems from Hamsun".

    I think the term 'anti-semitic' in certain contexts is problematic because, surely, hostile or critical feelings about Jews prior to WWII(and especially revelations about Shoah) have to be seen in a different light than post-WWII. Post-war, the term is associated with Nazi excesses and mass killings. But not all of anti-Jewish feelings prior to WWII was of that kind. Though Hansum met with Hitler, he had very different ideas. The reasons for being anti-Jewish were not always Nazi-like, Hitlerian, or genocidal. Indeed, even many Jews prior to WWII could be considered 'antisemitic' based on what they've said of the Jewish community and culture, which was often damning and critical.
    It's like the bakers pranks in SHORTCUTS. His phone-calls to the house weren't meant to be cruel because he didn't know the kid was dead. He was just getting back because he felt he'd been wronged.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBWaeCJIp8g

    Also, even those figures and artists who were involved with fascism or were 'far right' were often not on the same wavelengths as Nazis. And these feelings about Jews existed on the Left as well, even among leftist Jews. Karl Marx was a 'notorious anti-Semite' if we go by his statements, and Alan Dershowitz called him that in CHUTZPAH.
    But leftist 'antisemitism' believed the Jewish Sickness could be eradicated by getting rid of capitalism. Then, Jews would be forced to be honest workers and be like everyone else.
    But the far-right radical racist anti-semites said Jewish Problem is genetic. Thus, the problem could be solved either by separation, exile, or even mass eradication, the Nazi thing.

    Allen Ginsburg owed something to Ezra Pound.

    http://theamericanreader.com/6-may-1951-allen-ginsberg-to-ezra-pound/

    It seems Jewish sensibility of the past, even as it was harshly critical of antisemitism, was still curious enough and open-minded enough to appreciate genius and inspiration.

    Some of the most noteworthy scholars on Heidegger were Jewish. And Hannah Arendt did what she could to help him after WWII. The thing is, despite his dark and troubled side, his views weren't as simple as that of Nazism 101.

    It's funny. Jews are far more powerful now than in the 50s and 60s. And yet, Jews back then were more open to freedom and different ideas(even anti-Jewish ones) whereas so many Jews today are very paranoid about everything.
    Maybe having dominant power made Jewish ego too big and too paranoid about others taking it away. Or maybe the culture has grown childish, with cops and robbers mentality. Nuance is gone.

    As for degeneracy, I don't see it as a problem in art as long as it is handled right. The problem I have with current sensibility is the ease and comfort with decadence and degeneracy. Worse, elevation of decadence and degeneracy as virtues or even sacred stuff.

    Wholesome art isn't art. It denies too much of reality that is dark, ugly, disturbed, troubling, demented, and etc. Real art has to address the dark side of existence. But a true artist has conscience, search for meaning, a moral sensibility(even if not preachy), and etc. This is present in RESERVOIR DOGS, a powerful film about ugly people doing ugly things. But PULP FICTION just celebrates ugliness with hipster retardedness.
    It's one thing to say we are living in a 'world of shi*'. It's another thing to shamelessly wallow in it or sling shi* as if it's nothing more harmful than banana pie.

    This is why Lena Dunham and her ilk are so gross. She wallows in her filth like pig in a sty. And the sheer shamelessness of our culture has turned people into apes. In Jared Diamond's THIRD CHIMPANZEE, he asks why humans developed behavior of having sex privately as opposed to apes who just do it out in the open. But does this apply anymore? In a way, electronica is our public sphere, and we got open sexuality all over. And at spring break and dance clubs, people act like apes. This is shameless decadence and degeneracy celebrated as the New Normal. It's junglization of humanity.

    Same thing with homo stuff. Homos exist and they had troubled existence in a world that is mostly straight. So, it was a moral and legal challenge for straights and homos to arrive at some kind of common ground. And these themes were powerfully dramatized in MY BEAUTIFUL LAUNDRETTE and C.R.A.Z.Y. But what we have now is open celebration of homo butt-bang behavior and tranny penis-lopping and etc.
    Art is about conflict, but there is no conflict in the New Degeneracy. It is shameless and filled with 'pride'. Even Christians of Old weren't as sanctimonious as today's homomaniacs and tranny-tards and slut-skankers.

    Roth was not a mindless celebrant of degeneracy. Even in his most riotous book PORTNOY'S COMPLAINT, there's a lot of pain, humiliation, and anxiety along with the humor and boingery. It's not Howard Stern who wallows in filth(though sometimes funnily enough).
    , @dfordoom

    If we got rid of all the great artists and writers who were degenerates, the museums and libraries would be mostly empty
     
    That might not be entirely a bad thing. There's plenty of stuff in our libraries and museums that should be consigned to the rubbish heap. The vast majority of the paintings of the past century for starters (and pretty much all of it was indeed created by degenerates).
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  68. That novel of the Old West, Lonesome Dove, by Larry McMurtry, deserves a Nobel Prize, and likely will be read with pleasure for a long, long time.

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    • Replies: @bomag

    Lonesome Dove, by Larry McMurtry
     
    That novel stands out whenever I reflect on life: camaraderie; leadership; male - female dynamic; hardship and loss.
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  69. @Abe
    Thanks, Steve! Friday is sort of my day of liberation since I have a whole 48 extra hours to pack in the 12 hours of work my boss expects of me each day and goes over with a fine tooth comb the next morning (hate scrum meetings! hate the agile model!) And so I got a little giddy and may have hogged the comments boards, making a bit of a nuisance of myself. Glad at least some of it was not unappreciated!

    Thanks as well for all the suggestions on other great authors! Am making a resolution to read at least one thing by each (Handke, Murakami, Cormac McCarthy & Houellebecq) in 2018. Would also (counter-)recommend John Fante, an Italian-American author who touched on a lot of the same assimilation themes as Roth and- much more importantly- provided the pretext for Salma Hayek's last full frontal nude scene when they posthumously filmed his masterpiece about 10 years back ;-)

    I can understand Roth not being to a lot of the people's tastes here, but if you like CURB YOUR ENTHUSIASM or think Louis CK is hilarioius you owe it to yourselves to read Roth's comedic masterpieces PORTNOY'S COMPLAINT or SABBATH'S THEATER. And his later great works (COUNTERLIFE, OPERATION SHYLOCK, AMERICAN PASTORAL) are hardly 'Jew-y' at all, instead exploring the playgrounds of meta-fiction that was all the rage in the 80's in a way I think still holds up.

    Regardless, though, there is no denying Roth's shockingly sudden re-relevance this year. To paraphrase Johnson, if you are tired of Roth you must be tired of 2017. Marc Zuckerberg, despite clearly being on the autism spectrum, became one of the most successful men of his generation with a good shot now (ugh!) at the Presidency by stumbling on the goldmine of female emotional porn and monopolizing it w/Facebook (can still recall my post-menopausal sister-in-law wasting half her day fretting why no one had liked her like of someone else's like). Well, now the formerly-punchline Winklevoss Brothers are billionaires too, and they did it through betting big and betting early on Bitcoin.

    Roth similarly bet big and bet early on the ridiculously narrow and unlikely subject matter of 50 and 60+ year old Jewish men and their libido issues, not exactly the smart money choice at the end of your career when you should be writing one for the ages. And yet here we are. Non-stop talking about the putz of 65-year old Harvey Weinstein and where it's been, or 59-year old Matt Lauer and where his has been, or 65-year old Leon Wieseltier and where little Leo's been (and remember- Leon helped set the Middle East on fire on the last fumes of a sewing machine fortune; imagine what he could have done if he'd kept it zipped and was now at the helm of a magazine getting a slice of every iPhone sold on earth!)

    And this is hardly a parochial matter! Bibi Netanyahu- by far the greatest statesman of his age; a veritable second founding father of his nation who's been in power longer than Putin but with real elections and is about to settle the Palestinian/West Bank issue which once roiled SJW's MORE than even Apartheid in an entirely one-sided and to-his-liking manner if only the college campuses and GUARDIAN and German Green Party can be kept barking a bit longer about Trump and Muslim bans and Confederate statues and racis' Halloween costumes- well, his life's work could be suddenly unraveled because of one man's Fern Sully obsession? Harvey Weinstein (and let's not kid ourselves this would not be what it is if he looked like Paul Newman at 65) is now a Twitter meme with photos of him creeping on movie starlets juxtaposed with Belle Epoque anti-Semitic caricatures of Vienna theater pimps leading Tirolian milkmaids to their ruin, and making the anti-Semitic vintage caricature look moderate by comparison. In other words he is the Guernica painting, the Kim Phuc napalm girl photo, the hairy-ass naked Arab prisoner pyramid of his time and could roil Jewish self-image, attitudes towards Jews in Western countries, and perhaps even Israel's grand strategy, in ways we can't begin to imagine. How absurd! How ridiculous! How entirely Roth!

    Great novelists are literally the prophets of our age. They write about what is going to happen before it actually happens. Because they have their finger so precisely on the pulse of the Zeitgeist, real life later necessarily conjures up the characters and incidents that they prophecy. In Bonfire of the Vanities, the fictional Rev. Bacon was not based on the real life Rev. Sharpton. Wolfe wrote about it first and reality then inevitably conjured the incident that Wolfe had predicted. He could not have told you exactly where and when this would happen in real life, but just as a chemist knows that if you happen to mix certain chemicals together an explosion will happen, Wolfe knew what the hot buttons of our age were. And not just in broad terms (they are the same always – you don’t have to be a genius to say, race, sex, ethnicity, etc. – these are ALWAYS the hot buttons) but with detailed precision.

    Roth is such a writer. Like Wolfe, he is not perfect. They are both very uneven – some of their novels are duds, some are masterpieces. Some of their characters are cardboard cutouts, some of their dialog is unlike human conversation. They also share the attribute of being (thus far) unfilmable. Perversely, this is another sign of greatness. Great art cannot be readily translated into another medium without losing its greatness. Once in a while, a great film artist gets his hands on a great novel and produces something worthwhile, but it’s rare.

    Any fool can invent a story. Courtney Milan spits out romance novels by the dozen and no one mistakes them for great art. But to write a work of prophecy (and not just once but repeatedly – anyone can get lucky once) is a sign of greatness. And Roth’s personal degeneracy or lack thereof is completely irrelevant. God likes to play jokes on humans and one of his favorite jokes is that he bestows great talent on buffoons, degenerates, idiot savants, ugly dwarfs, etc. (sometimes all concentrated in one person – I’m talking about you, Roman Polanski) . In the fictional Amadeus (but not in real life) Salieri is literally driven insane by this fact. Don’t confuse the art with the artist.

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    • Replies: @dfordoom

    God likes to play jokes on humans and one of his favorite jokes is that he bestows great talent on buffoons, degenerates, idiot savants, ugly dwarfs, etc. (sometimes all concentrated in one person – I’m talking about you, Roman Polanski)
     
    Great talent? Some talent yes, but great talent? Is Polanski's body of work really that impressive? OK, Repulsion was a masterpiece. Chinatown was pretty good.

    We know Polanski is a genius because we're always told he's a genius.
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  70. @J.Ross
    Yes. Roth is rather pointedly Jewish, so it's easy to get distracted by that, but Roth's real central identity is as a navel-gazing boomer describing what he had for breakfast this morning and comparing it to what he breakfasted on as a kid.
    A certain amount of generationally tied stuff is just plain lost every year for reasons like slang, but I am frequently impressed when I read forgotten stuff from the Twenties or especially the Forties (the Forties might have been a kind of unique high point for American letters). A lot of it holds up much better than more recent material. Zappa (who deserves to be remembered more than Roth) warned about this closing loop of nostalgia.

    Zappa’s autobiography is well worth reading. Much better than Roth’s navel-gazing & anti-gentile hostility.

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  71. @Steve-o
    Roth is an extremely overrated writer who owes his acclaim to writing things that other neurotic Jews can relate to and thus shower good reviews and prizes on. I think Roth’s ‘oy vey I’m so guilty for being obsessed with shiksas’ shtick doesn’t excite Scandinavian Nobel voters.

    Roth is an extremely overrated writer who owes his acclaim to writing things that other neurotic Jews can relate to and thus shower good reviews and prizes on.

    I think Kafka may be another.

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    • Replies: @anonymous-antimarxist
    Yes, and Kafka was another degenerate obsessed with sex.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Kafka

    Private life
    Kafka never married. According to Brod, Kafka was "tortured" by sexual desire[57] and Kafka's biographer Reiner Stach states that his life was full of "incessant womanising" and that he was filled with a fear of "sexual failure".[58] He visited brothels for most of his adult life[59][60][61] and was interested in pornography.
     
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  72. @timothy
    Munro is actually amazing.

    Munro is actually amazing.

    Agreed, and while I can understand the controversy over awarding the literature Nobel to a lyricist, the short story is artistically equal to the novel in every way but the most obvious. And like Roth, Munro’s work can also be eerily prescient, for example The Bear Came Over the Mountain on sexual dynamics.

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  73. @Anon
    Finally, the solution to all problems.

    INTERSECTIONAL FEMINISM.

    Men, gentile or Jewish, need to hook up with Interfems and do like Lara Witt says.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgOT4m_nh_4&feature=youtu.be

    From the educational video I think I now understand better what is intersectional feminism.

    Intersectional feminism is female victim cultists finding a common cause with other professional victim cults like Afro-Blacks, Native Americans, Jews, Latinos, and queers.

    Their common cause is their incessant demand for more federally provided group entitlements for victim cultists, and their shared hatred of white-straight-gentile-able bodied-nonhispanic-Christians.

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  74. @Abe
    RE: the topic of civility a while back, Roth was as brutal a critic of Jewish manners as anyone on this board:

    There's an expression in English, "Good morning", or so I have been told; the phrase has never been of any particular use to me. At breakfast I am in fact known to the other boarders as "Mr. Sourball" and "The Crab". But suddenly, here in Iowa, in imitation of the local inhabitants, I am transformed into a veritable geyser of good mornings. "Good morning", he says, and now it occurs to me that the word "morning" as he uses it, refers specifically to the hours between eight A.M. and twelve noon. He wants the hours between eight and twelve to be good, which is to say, enjoyable, pleasurable, beneficial! We are all of us wishing each other four hours of pleasure and accomplishment. Why, that's terrific! Hey, that's very nice! Good morning! My God! The English language is a a form of communication! Conversation isn't just crossfire where you shoot and get shot at! Where you've got to duck for your life and aim to kill! Word aren't only bombs and bullets- no, they're little gifts, containing meanings!
     

    One of the things I miss about the old timey Jews is the constant and loud disagreement about all variety of ideas.

    I remember a time in NYC in intellectual circles where the thing to do for educated Jews was to debate ideas just for the pure pleasure of the sport. Pretty much nothing was beyond discussion. It seemed a natural extension of Talmudic argument.

    Now the vast majority of Jews seem capable only of asserting their faithful allegiance to one set of ideas, and finding creative ways to shut down discussion.

    Don’t know how this happened, exactly.

    Where are the old Jews? I thought they were a pretty good thing when it came to intellectual ferment.

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    • Replies: @Anon
    Rabbis no longer have 12 kids anymore, so their gene lines are decreasing while other Jewish genes lines like those of the tech guys and financial guys are increasing in comparison. Some of the latter are brainy, but they aren't necessarily scholars, nor are they open to the interplay of cultural ideas. A BS in computing, or a BA in business, is NOT a classical liberal arts education, and learning how to debate and think about ideas is part of a classical liberal arts degree, instead of a pure 'trade' degree like computing or business. The aspy tech guys are especially rigid, and they think 'the science is settled,' and they tend to believe the social sciences work the same way until they get older and learn more about life.
    , @bartok

    Where are the old Jews? I thought they were a pretty good thing when it came to intellectual ferment.
     
    They merged with the WASP (Puritan) establishment and now together rule the western world as a communist project. h/t Moldbug

    The Puritan aspect and the Jewish aspect interact in strange ways, but one result is obvious: anti-semitism will become a state crime as it was in Russia from the very beginning of Soviet rule.
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  75. @Luke Lea

    Roth is an extremely overrated writer who owes his acclaim to writing things that other neurotic Jews can relate to and thus shower good reviews and prizes on.
     
    I think Kafka may be another.

    Yes, and Kafka was another degenerate obsessed with sex.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Kafka

    Private life
    Kafka never married. According to Brod, Kafka was “tortured” by sexual desire[57] and Kafka’s biographer Reiner Stach states that his life was full of “incessant womanising” and that he was filled with a fear of “sexual failure”.[58] He visited brothels for most of his adult life[59][60][61] and was interested in pornography.

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  76. @Anonymous
    It's the society that is degenerate and almost entirely incapable of artistic heights.

    Roth is not quotable. Nobody ever quotes him. Very postmodern!

    The critics save highest praise for writers who can't write, painters who can't paint etc.

    Great writers leave their mark with writing that rings down through the ages. But Roth is not great--outside of his Tribe. It's a cult and Roth boosterism goes along with all the other scatological social vectors.

    You forgot composers who can’t compose, singers who can’t sing, actors who can’t act. People who are really good at these things are necessarily rare, but we’ve forgotten that.

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  77. @Dave Pinsen
    That seems to be a non-Western immigrant characteristic, rather than a uniquely Jewish one. Simon Kuper wrote that Zlatan Ibrahimović's family was similarly grouchy at breakfast, as I mentioned in this comment last year.

    I suspect morning grouchiness is more related the frequency of hangovers. A good night of sober sleep can really work wonders for people. That, and getting plenty of protein in one’s breakfast.

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    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    Could be, but do Bosnians or whatever Zlatan is drink more than Swedes? I don't know.
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  78. @Anon
    Roth is a major writer but a subject for the elites and literary community.

    As for the masses, it's rap for the youths and stuff like 50 SHADES OF GREY for women.

    And crass mass culture has infiltrated the Ivies.

    The culture is sado-masochistic.

    http://www.breitbart.com/tech/2017/12/15/princeton-university-to-host-bdsm-sex-tutorial-workshop/

    Women bitch about harassment but make stuff like 50 SHADES into a worldwide phenom. I guess 'punishment' is okay as long as the guy is rich, good-looking, and handsome.

    The S&M goes both way. Men like to lord over women, but they also love playing the white knight, the defender of womenfolk from bestial manhood.
    Women want men of power to come for them but then shriek about 'rape'. Indeed, the outrage is part of the turn-on, just like Jackie Coakley's rape account was also a rape fantasy.

    So, do they want it or not?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9a5-E5Zk3w

    The culture is sado-masochistic.

    Welcome to humanity. One of the first uses of the inter-computer-networks (I’m talking pre-Internet, i.e. BBS) was to query for “interesting” sexual experiences.

    So, do they want it or not?

    Sadly, we will never know!

    OTOH, Google is developing self-playing game-solving neural-network based automatons, so maybe we will.

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  79. The problem I have with Roth is the same I have with Woody Allen, in the beginning I found them hilarious and clever, but with time they become tiresome with their Jewish obsessions and increasingly fake stories. American Pastoral was Roth’s last good novel (or maybe Sabbath’s Theater) and Allen’s work peaked in the 80s, nothing he made since is very good.

    Re: Heller and people who have interesting lives and particularly having been through war writing more interesting stories, it’s not always true, but in many cases, yes. Joseph Conrad, Jack London, Mark Twain, Henry Melville, etc. On the other hand, Melville also wrote a great story about working in an office, so it all depends.

    Recently I’ve read “The Skin” by Italian writer Curzio Malaparte, about his (real and not so real) experiences in the war, another great book.

    That said, Roth deserved the prize more than Dylan, for sure. I haven’t read Munro. I’ve read two Murakami books, one good, one bad. And so forth and so on.

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    • Replies: @Anon
    Allen’s work peaked in the 80s, nothing he made since is very good.

    You have aptly named yourself Dumbo.

    I mean that is so wrong. Allen's early comedies are forever, but he didn't want to be a clown forever(like Mel Brooks). And then he tried to combine adult comedy with drama in movies like ANNIE HALL and MANHATTAN that have NOT aged well. Worse, he made SERIOUS movies, and they all sucked except for CRIMES AND MISDEMEANORS(but then it too has balance of funny and serious). Allen was confused in the late 70s, as was the culture itself. Andrew Sarris called MANHATTAN the best film of the 70s, but I think he later changed his mind. I mean he had to. Also, Allen at the time was too busy riffing on Bergman, Fellini, and others to really develop his own sensibility as Woody Allen. HANNAH AND HER SISTERS works pretty well, but it owes too much to Bergman. Now, BROADWAY DANNY ROSE owes something to Fellini, but he was really beginning to find his own voice there. It is a film you can enjoy without referencing other films.

    But Allen's finest work came with MANHATTAN MURDER MYSTERY, a true marvel in every way. And he finally made another really good serious movie with BLUE JASMINE, and it is not about Jews.
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  80. @Clyde

    I find it hard to take the award seriously given that neither Joseph Conrad nor Robert Graves won it.
     
    Graves semi-retired to a Greek isle. In his seventies he stayed in shape by walking eight miles a day. He did this by walking to the post office twice a day to check for mail. He lived to 90.

    Interesting. He was an interesting character. Have you read his WWI memoir, Goodbye To All That? Well worth it.

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    • Replies: @Clyde
    Thanks. I will try to read it this coming year. I know that walking factoid about him but have not read anything by Robert Graves.
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  81. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Mr. Anon
    I tend to be much more impressed by writers who have actually done something in their lives worth writing about. Joseph Heller fought in WWII - he flew 60 combat missions in a B-25. Likewise, Norman Mailer and Kurt Vonnegut were both combat veterans. War is certainly an intense experience. So many novelists now are just office drones - lit professors. They have known little of life at the extreme. Why should I particularly care what they think?

    I think Eugene Sledge deserves a Nobel Prize for a non-fiction book like With The Old Breed far more than any number of fiction writers working today, but you’ll never be able to convince a silly, status quo-minded literary committee of that. It certainly would have been better giving it to Sledge than Dylan.

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    • Agree: PV van der Byl
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  82. @anon
    Right now the eighties are in vogue again, it seems.

    The eighties have been in vogue for a really long time. Remember that show Freaks and Geeks, that launched the career of James Franco and Seth Rogen? That was set in the early eighties, and the show was out twenty years ago.

    Seth Rogen's first movie was Donnie Darko, set in 1988, incidentally.

    And what's one of the biggest shows now? Stranger Things, also set in the early eighties.

    Eighties nostalgia has been going strong for twice as long as the eighties actually lasted. It's like our society decided that the eighties just really were the best time in America, when things basically peaked.

    I've had a theory for awhile now that eighties period films will always be around, because that's basically the last time you could count on your characters having no access to either cell phones or the internet. Both of those things tend to remove a lot of suspense from old-fashioned movie plots.

    I’ve had a theory for awhile now that eighties period films will always be around, because that’s basically the last time you could count on your characters having no access to either cell phones or the internet. Both of those things tend to remove a lot of suspense from old-fashioned movie plots.

    I agree. It was also before the widespread adoption of computers. I remember – it was in the mid-to-late nineties sometime, when film-makers decided that it was nerve-wrackingly suspenseful to watch people copy files from a hard-drive. They’re still doing it – having their characters watch the bars fill up, or a percent counter run up to 100. I find it boring as all get out. It’s about as suspenseful as installing the latest version of Adobe Acrobat.

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  83. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @joeyjoejoe
    ‘but I am frequently impressed when I read forgotten stuff from the Twenties or especially the Forties (the Forties might have been a kind of unique high point for American letters). ‘

    When I was in graduate school in one of the arts and sciences, i would often have to actually browse the stacks of a big state university. And while doing that I would often browse the books on my chosen topic-which ranged from yesterday’s thesis to books back to perhaps 1850 or so (rarely that old,but late 1800’s was common).

    Victorian era (say 1880-1920) was clearly the superior era for writing. Almost every book (that I would encounter) from that era was written clearly and logically, but compellingly. I was ‘interesting’ to pick up a book at random, and just read paragraphs at a random spot-the argument leaps out, and the style engages you. The author was making an argument, but also doing so in an ‘artful’ and logical manner. These would have been history or sociology or political science books; not literature (where perhaps that logical structure would have been unengaging), and not scientific theses (where the lack of scientific rigor would have been not defensible).

    Before this era, the language was florid and distant enough to seem slightly alien (think of Abraham Lincoln’s speeches). In the modern era, everyone (historians, philosophers, sociologists) feels compelled to write according to the scientific method-thus, you have the pseudo- scientific jargon of modern academic writing ( or, alternately, post-modern gibberish).

    But my anecdotal experience supports the thesis that the Victorian Era was the high point of Western culture and civilization.

    joe

    I’ve read a lot of Victorian nonfiction and agree with you heartily. There are many classics of their genres languishing because they’re no longer PC, but whose ideas are perfectly sound. The Victorians were the first people to write about everything. The whole world was interesting to them, and you can find a Victorian book that is ‘the first basic book’ about practically every subject in existence. Personally, I like Victorian travel books because they don’t sugarcoat, and they’re more truthful about what they encountered and closer to the era of strange, untouched aboriginal cultures.

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  84. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @candid_observer
    One of the things I miss about the old timey Jews is the constant and loud disagreement about all variety of ideas.

    I remember a time in NYC in intellectual circles where the thing to do for educated Jews was to debate ideas just for the pure pleasure of the sport. Pretty much nothing was beyond discussion. It seemed a natural extension of Talmudic argument.

    Now the vast majority of Jews seem capable only of asserting their faithful allegiance to one set of ideas, and finding creative ways to shut down discussion.

    Don't know how this happened, exactly.

    Where are the old Jews? I thought they were a pretty good thing when it came to intellectual ferment.

    Rabbis no longer have 12 kids anymore, so their gene lines are decreasing while other Jewish genes lines like those of the tech guys and financial guys are increasing in comparison. Some of the latter are brainy, but they aren’t necessarily scholars, nor are they open to the interplay of cultural ideas. A BS in computing, or a BA in business, is NOT a classical liberal arts education, and learning how to debate and think about ideas is part of a classical liberal arts degree, instead of a pure ‘trade’ degree like computing or business. The aspy tech guys are especially rigid, and they think ‘the science is settled,’ and they tend to believe the social sciences work the same way until they get older and learn more about life.

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  85. @Mr. Anon
    I tend to be much more impressed by writers who have actually done something in their lives worth writing about. Joseph Heller fought in WWII - he flew 60 combat missions in a B-25. Likewise, Norman Mailer and Kurt Vonnegut were both combat veterans. War is certainly an intense experience. So many novelists now are just office drones - lit professors. They have known little of life at the extreme. Why should I particularly care what they think?

    What did Shakespeare do with his life? We barely know. Jane Austen? Nothing.

    Lives worth reading about may be worth reading about, but they’re really neither here nor there regarding the ability to produce great writing. You can always steal interesting material.

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    • Replies: @Mr. Anon

    What did Shakespeare do with his life? We barely know. Jane Austen? Nothing.
     
    Yes, that is true. There have been great writers who lead rather prosaic lives. But nowadays, almost all of them are journalists or academics, as are almost everyone they know. They are boring people, with boring lives, and it shows in what they write - even in what they chose to write about.
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  86. I don’t consider Relevance, in the sense of fitting in with the day’s headlines (the Holy Grail of 1960s cultural esteem), a reason for handing out Nobel Prizes. But far as I can tell there is no rhyme or reason for how winners are actually decided, so what’s the difference?

    I limit myself to only so many mid-20th century-on Jewish American novelists, and I already like Saul Bellow and Bernard Malamud, so Roth is out.

    He’s not the only one who figured out people have dirty minds, by the way. And there are ways to talk about it without talking about it like Roth. Which isn’t in an honest so much as nauseatingly frank manner. (Why does “frank” have to mean crass, by the way, even when I don’t feel like using it that way?)

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  87. @Anonymous
    OT:

    Another Jewish-led outfit has been commemorated yet again in their not-quite-dotage :

    https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--x0B6WPMV--/c_scale,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800/rb4tm6juhedzothwyg1a.jpg


    https://www.avclub.com/blondie-jams-with-the-archies-in-this-exclusive-first-l-1821334430

    Dude, the whole bunch are in their dotage. She has false teeth and moves like most any other granny her age. And her voice is a growl now.

    At least that other old hag the veggie-Nazi can still sing, even though her face is shot.

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  88. “Good as Gold” about the protagonist’s Kissinger envy was a good read. How many liberal Jews hated Kissinger in the 1970s while lusting for his power?

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  89. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Jack D
    If we got rid of all the great artists and writers who were degenerates, the museums and libraries would be mostly empty. It's possible to criticize Roth but not to just dismiss him with those 3 words.

    If we got rid of all the great artists and writers who were degenerates, the museums and libraries would be mostly empty. It’s possible to criticize Roth but not to just dismiss him with those 3 words.

    This is true. Also, one man’s degeneracy is another man’s health. To some uptight people, the films of Shohei Imamura may seem degenerate, but Imamura thought of it as health. His famous statement: his films are about the lower half of Japanese society and lower half of the human body. He was about raw vital existence and survival, lust and appetite. Still, he understood the dark side of the animal and brutish side of man. The id could make people feel freer but also more barbaric and obsessive.

    Philip Roth cited the vulgarian Celine as a key influence. Celine was labeled as a notorious anti-semite, but Roth was profoundly influenced by him. Likewise, Isaac Bashevis Singer was greatly influenced by another anti-semite Knut Hamsun.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knut_Hamsun

    Isaac Bashevis Singer called Hamsun “the father of the modern school of literature in his every aspect—his subjectiveness, his fragmentariness, his use of flashbacks, his lyricism. The whole modern school of fiction in the twentieth century stems from Hamsun”.

    I think the term ‘anti-semitic’ in certain contexts is problematic because, surely, hostile or critical feelings about Jews prior to WWII(and especially revelations about Shoah) have to be seen in a different light than post-WWII. Post-war, the term is associated with Nazi excesses and mass killings. But not all of anti-Jewish feelings prior to WWII was of that kind. Though Hansum met with Hitler, he had very different ideas. The reasons for being anti-Jewish were not always Nazi-like, Hitlerian, or genocidal. Indeed, even many Jews prior to WWII could be considered ‘antisemitic’ based on what they’ve said of the Jewish community and culture, which was often damning and critical.
    It’s like the bakers pranks in SHORTCUTS. His phone-calls to the house weren’t meant to be cruel because he didn’t know the kid was dead. He was just getting back because he felt he’d been wronged.

    Also, even those figures and artists who were involved with fascism or were ‘far right’ were often not on the same wavelengths as Nazis. And these feelings about Jews existed on the Left as well, even among leftist Jews. Karl Marx was a ‘notorious anti-Semite’ if we go by his statements, and Alan Dershowitz called him that in CHUTZPAH.
    But leftist ‘antisemitism’ believed the Jewish Sickness could be eradicated by getting rid of capitalism. Then, Jews would be forced to be honest workers and be like everyone else.
    But the far-right radical racist anti-semites said Jewish Problem is genetic. Thus, the problem could be solved either by separation, exile, or even mass eradication, the Nazi thing.

    Allen Ginsburg owed something to Ezra Pound.

    http://theamericanreader.com/6-may-1951-allen-ginsberg-to-ezra-pound/

    It seems Jewish sensibility of the past, even as it was harshly critical of antisemitism, was still curious enough and open-minded enough to appreciate genius and inspiration.

    Some of the most noteworthy scholars on Heidegger were Jewish. And Hannah Arendt did what she could to help him after WWII. The thing is, despite his dark and troubled side, his views weren’t as simple as that of Nazism 101.

    It’s funny. Jews are far more powerful now than in the 50s and 60s. And yet, Jews back then were more open to freedom and different ideas(even anti-Jewish ones) whereas so many Jews today are very paranoid about everything.
    Maybe having dominant power made Jewish ego too big and too paranoid about others taking it away. Or maybe the culture has grown childish, with cops and robbers mentality. Nuance is gone.

    As for degeneracy, I don’t see it as a problem in art as long as it is handled right. The problem I have with current sensibility is the ease and comfort with decadence and degeneracy. Worse, elevation of decadence and degeneracy as virtues or even sacred stuff.

    Wholesome art isn’t art. It denies too much of reality that is dark, ugly, disturbed, troubling, demented, and etc. Real art has to address the dark side of existence. But a true artist has conscience, search for meaning, a moral sensibility(even if not preachy), and etc. This is present in RESERVOIR DOGS, a powerful film about ugly people doing ugly things. But PULP FICTION just celebrates ugliness with hipster retardedness.
    It’s one thing to say we are living in a ‘world of shi*’. It’s another thing to shamelessly wallow in it or sling shi* as if it’s nothing more harmful than banana pie.

    This is why Lena Dunham and her ilk are so gross. She wallows in her filth like pig in a sty. And the sheer shamelessness of our culture has turned people into apes. In Jared Diamond’s THIRD CHIMPANZEE, he asks why humans developed behavior of having sex privately as opposed to apes who just do it out in the open. But does this apply anymore? In a way, electronica is our public sphere, and we got open sexuality all over. And at spring break and dance clubs, people act like apes. This is shameless decadence and degeneracy celebrated as the New Normal. It’s junglization of humanity.

    Same thing with homo stuff. Homos exist and they had troubled existence in a world that is mostly straight. So, it was a moral and legal challenge for straights and homos to arrive at some kind of common ground. And these themes were powerfully dramatized in MY BEAUTIFUL LAUNDRETTE and C.R.A.Z.Y. But what we have now is open celebration of homo butt-bang behavior and tranny penis-lopping and etc.
    Art is about conflict, but there is no conflict in the New Degeneracy. It is shameless and filled with ‘pride’. Even Christians of Old weren’t as sanctimonious as today’s homomaniacs and tranny-tards and slut-skankers.

    Roth was not a mindless celebrant of degeneracy. Even in his most riotous book PORTNOY’S COMPLAINT, there’s a lot of pain, humiliation, and anxiety along with the humor and boingery. It’s not Howard Stern who wallows in filth(though sometimes funnily enough).

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  90. @Pericles
    " if you like CURB YOUR ENTHUSIASM or think Louis CK is hilarioius you owe it to yourselves to read Roth’s comedic masterpieces"

    (Protagonist does the Jewish Hello into a piece of liver and later names his shiksa Monkey. Howls of laughter. Though in all fairness I suppose a Gentile would be unable to get something like that published.)

    It's possible interesting things could be written about the American Jew, always a victim, always hounded by endemic Nazi forces in whatever country he enters, yet also always heroic, always struggling to enter and subvert gentile country clubs and promote open borders (except for Israel). But it probably needs an outsider to make it interesting. Maybe there's a shiksa wife of a literary bent somewhere.

    “Maybe there’s a shiksa wife of a literary bent somewhere.”

    Surely there is, and surely we’ve all read her tweets – Louise Mensch, nee Bagshawe.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louise_Mensch#Bibliography

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  91. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Dumbo
    The problem I have with Roth is the same I have with Woody Allen, in the beginning I found them hilarious and clever, but with time they become tiresome with their Jewish obsessions and increasingly fake stories. American Pastoral was Roth's last good novel (or maybe Sabbath's Theater) and Allen's work peaked in the 80s, nothing he made since is very good.

    Re: Heller and people who have interesting lives and particularly having been through war writing more interesting stories, it's not always true, but in many cases, yes. Joseph Conrad, Jack London, Mark Twain, Henry Melville, etc. On the other hand, Melville also wrote a great story about working in an office, so it all depends.

    Recently I've read "The Skin" by Italian writer Curzio Malaparte, about his (real and not so real) experiences in the war, another great book.

    That said, Roth deserved the prize more than Dylan, for sure. I haven't read Munro. I've read two Murakami books, one good, one bad. And so forth and so on.

    Allen’s work peaked in the 80s, nothing he made since is very good.

    You have aptly named yourself Dumbo.

    I mean that is so wrong. Allen’s early comedies are forever, but he didn’t want to be a clown forever(like Mel Brooks). And then he tried to combine adult comedy with drama in movies like ANNIE HALL and MANHATTAN that have NOT aged well. Worse, he made SERIOUS movies, and they all sucked except for CRIMES AND MISDEMEANORS(but then it too has balance of funny and serious). Allen was confused in the late 70s, as was the culture itself. Andrew Sarris called MANHATTAN the best film of the 70s, but I think he later changed his mind. I mean he had to. Also, Allen at the time was too busy riffing on Bergman, Fellini, and others to really develop his own sensibility as Woody Allen. HANNAH AND HER SISTERS works pretty well, but it owes too much to Bergman. Now, BROADWAY DANNY ROSE owes something to Fellini, but he was really beginning to find his own voice there. It is a film you can enjoy without referencing other films.

    But Allen’s finest work came with MANHATTAN MURDER MYSTERY, a true marvel in every way. And he finally made another really good serious movie with BLUE JASMINE, and it is not about Jews.

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    • Replies: @Dumbo
    Then maybe his "own sensibility as Woody Allen" wasn't very good, and he was better copying Fellini and Bergman and others.

    In the 90s he made two good movies, "Deconstructing Harry" and "Manhattan Murder Mystery", which is however just a good comedy. There were maybe one or two others that were memorable, or maybe not, because i have forgotten them. "Husband and Wives"?

    Anyway, all I have seen from him since then went from bad to mediocre, even the celebrated ones such as "Match Point", which was a rehash of his own "Crimes and Misdemeanors". "Midnight in Paris" had some funny parts, but also seemed a bad copy of his best work.

    Granted, I haven't seen "Blue Jasmine" nor any of his films in the last 3 or 4 years. The last one I saw I think was that one with Larry David ("Anything Works", I think), which was awful.

    Maybe it's me and not him, maybe I just got tired of his schtick, I don't know. I don't go to the movies as often and watch mostly old movies (30s-70s). His personal life also rubbed me the wrong way, so I don't see him with so much sympathy (same with Polanski).

    But other directors got old and had bad characters and still made good movies.
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  92. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @John Gruskos
    Why didn't Roth get a Nobel prize for literature?

    Probably because the judges read The Plot Against America. (Or at least tried to.)

    Nobel Prize or Oscars. Who cares?

    People act as if those awards still have value.

    True, some great writers have won, but it’s always been more of a Feel-Good Award or a Political Statement than anything.

    Now, it’s not as pisspoor as the Peace Prize that became UTTERLY worthless when Obama got it for having done NOTHING.

    Still, too many Lit Prizes were handed out for political reasons.

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  93. @Anonymous
    Have to agree with you, even though I sometimes find him and his work objectionable. So what? His greatest work is nothing short of stunning. I can't even explain him. Who can explain the occurrence of genius?

    Meanwhile, Alice Munro won the Nobel Prize? I had no idea, and I was happier when I had no idea.

    Whenever I hear Hurricane off Desire I think: This is why Plato would ban poets from the Republic. By the end of the song, you’re almost convinced that a grave injustice was done to a great man, which of course is a load of horseshit.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    A certain famous female of my acquaintence who grew up five miles, if that, from where the murders took place told me she knew, as everyone in the area did, Carter did it. She knew a witness. But she has not ever said a word about it and she isn't going to.
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  94. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous
    Jews like Howard Stern, Ron Jeremy, Al Goldstein, Kinky Friedman et al are my favorite kind of Jews. They act as a walking, talking artificial horizon giving insight into every Jewish neurosis, fixation, et al, there is.

    Philip Roth is such a Jew.

    Jews like Howard Stern, Ron Jeremy, Al Goldstein, Kinky Friedman et al are my favorite kind of Jews. They act as a walking, talking artificial horizon giving insight into every Jewish neurosis, fixation, et al, there is.

    That means those Jews are not neurotic, right? Since they expose everything without shame, they don’t suffer from complexes. Shamelessness is their therapy and they are cured.

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  95. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Steve-o
    Roth is an extremely overrated writer who owes his acclaim to writing things that other neurotic Jews can relate to and thus shower good reviews and prizes on. I think Roth’s ‘oy vey I’m so guilty for being obsessed with shiksas’ shtick doesn’t excite Scandinavian Nobel voters.

    I think Roth’s ‘oy vey I’m so guilty for being obsessed with shiksas’ shtick doesn’t excite Scandinavian Nobel voters.

    Nobel Lit, like the Oscars, generally prefer writers who are more inspiring. This is why even Pearl Buck won a prize. She wrote about the Peepul of China. And Hemingway got it because of OLD MAN AND THE SEA, a novel with Big Themes. Same reason Updike never got it. His focus was too ‘small’ and ‘intimate’ and ‘personal’ for the Nobel community.

    http://voices.washingtonpost.com/shortstack/2009/01/john_updike_sans_nobel_prize.html

    In retrospect, I would say DAZED AND CONFUSED is a better film than SCHINDLER’S LIST, but the latter won for understandable reasons: tragic theme, big production, serious message.

    But on occasion, the Awards can surprise. MIDNIGHT COWBOY won for 1969. That is a special movie.

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  96. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous
    It's the society that is degenerate and almost entirely incapable of artistic heights.

    Roth is not quotable. Nobody ever quotes him. Very postmodern!

    The critics save highest praise for writers who can't write, painters who can't paint etc.

    Great writers leave their mark with writing that rings down through the ages. But Roth is not great--outside of his Tribe. It's a cult and Roth boosterism goes along with all the other scatological social vectors.

    It’s the society that is degenerate and almost entirely incapable of artistic heights.

    I dislike the current sensibility too, but artists keep doing work, and every year has its crop of notable films and books.

    I haven’t read much of modern fiction, but MARRIAGE PLOT is really good.
    And I only read the first chapter of OSCAR WAO, but it is truly inspired.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Brief_Wondrous_Life_of_Oscar_Wao

    Also, I don’t think art is best created by seeking the ‘heights’. That leads to White Elephant art where the bigness of intention or theme smothers or neglects all the small details that make art interesting.

    Sometimes artists do their best work by just being natural & minding small details and do their worst work by trying too hard and reaching too high.

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  97. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Meretricious
    there are many better writers out there than Roth--start with Peter Handke and Murakami. Dylan is a mediocre songwriter. All this means is that the Nobel Prize in Lit is now a joke, and its demise started with caving to political pressure to elevate that terminal mediocrity, Toni Morrison

    there are many better writers out there than Roth–start with Peter Handke and Murakami.

    Is Handke the guy responsible for WINGS OF DESIRE, that bogus art film?
    Murakami? That phony baloney whose books are like wall paper?
    He’s all about fizz and impressions. He’s the Wes Anderson of literature.
    All fluff. Anderson made one real movie. Rushmore. Murakami wrote one half-decent book: Hardboiled Wonderland. Otherwise, there’s no there there.

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  98. @Dave Pinsen
    Haruki Murakami is good, but overrated. The most interesting part of The Wind-Up Bird Chronicle was the part set in Manchuria in World War 2, which was likely lightly fictionalized history he'd read. And it had the flimsiest connection to the rest of the novel set in the '80s. Basically, a veteran decides to tell the '80s protagonist his story, even though they barely know each other.

    The '80s story largely consists of a 30-something year old man doing mundane things in his apartment after his wife has left him. Maybe this influenced Knausgaard.

    Murakami's 1Q84 is nicely atmospheric and suspenseful but fizzles in its last act. I liked Ryu Murakami's From The Fatherland, With Love better.

    The Literature Nobel has always been uneven, with the least deserving winners winning because of their left wing politics and the most deserving in spite of theirs. Dylan is an excellent songwriter, but giving a Nobel to a man who seemingly hasn't read a novel since high school was a joke, which Dylan repaid by apparently cribbing most of his acceptance speech from Cliffs Notes.

    Haruki Murakami is good, but overrated.

    He should be called Haruki Origami. It’s all a clever contraption.

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  99. @Mr. Anon
    I tend to be much more impressed by writers who have actually done something in their lives worth writing about. Joseph Heller fought in WWII - he flew 60 combat missions in a B-25. Likewise, Norman Mailer and Kurt Vonnegut were both combat veterans. War is certainly an intense experience. So many novelists now are just office drones - lit professors. They have known little of life at the extreme. Why should I particularly care what they think?

    They have known little of life at the extreme. Why should I particularly care what they think?

    Didn’t Stephen Crane write RED BADGE OF COURAGE without having seen war?

    Sam Fuller served in WWII but he was less of a film-maker than Spielberg.

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    • Replies: @J.Ross
    Sam Fuller was less famous, successful and revered than Spielberg. Fuller was a million times the filmmaker that Spielberg was in Spielberg's eighties blockbuster heyday. I doubt Spielberg ever went through the bizarre last-minute duct tape emergencies that Fuller accepted as normal.
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  100. @John Gruskos
    Why didn't Roth get a Nobel prize for literature?

    Probably because the judges read The Plot Against America. (Or at least tried to.)

    Maybe it’s the Bellow Curse. Maybe the Nobel Committee believes that subject — Jewish subjective life — has been rewarded already.

    Nobel seems to hand out awards based on themes than talent alone.

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  101. @Anon
    Roth is a major writer but a subject for the elites and literary community.

    As for the masses, it's rap for the youths and stuff like 50 SHADES OF GREY for women.

    And crass mass culture has infiltrated the Ivies.

    The culture is sado-masochistic.

    http://www.breitbart.com/tech/2017/12/15/princeton-university-to-host-bdsm-sex-tutorial-workshop/

    Women bitch about harassment but make stuff like 50 SHADES into a worldwide phenom. I guess 'punishment' is okay as long as the guy is rich, good-looking, and handsome.

    The S&M goes both way. Men like to lord over women, but they also love playing the white knight, the defender of womenfolk from bestial manhood.
    Women want men of power to come for them but then shriek about 'rape'. Indeed, the outrage is part of the turn-on, just like Jackie Coakley's rape account was also a rape fantasy.

    So, do they want it or not?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9a5-E5Zk3w

    It’s pretty simple, actually. If a woman says she wants to be beaten, she wants it. If she does not, one may assume she doesn’t.

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  102. Anon • Disclaimer says:

    In some ways, the Nobel Lit has become more elitist.

    It’s hard to think future Nobels will be given to popular writers such as

    Pearl Buck, John Galsworthy, Sinclair Lewis, Henryk Sienkiewicz, Kipling, Tagore, Sholokhov, and even Hemingway and Steinbeck.

    And Churchill got one. When will another politician or statesman win?

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    • Replies: @BB753
    "When will another politician or statesman win?"
    Obama, real soon.
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  103. @Anonymous
    Modern America has a lot of actual geniuses operating in various esoteric niches. We hardly ever hear about them.

    Modern America also has a lot frauds operating in the historic prestige niches. They are supported by the corrupt "media"...! We hear about these frauds on a regular basis.

    Modern America has a lot of actual geniuses operating in various esoteric niches. We hardly ever hear about them.

    Can you name any?

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  104. @Anon
    They have known little of life at the extreme. Why should I particularly care what they think?

    Didn't Stephen Crane write RED BADGE OF COURAGE without having seen war?

    Sam Fuller served in WWII but he was less of a film-maker than Spielberg.

    Sam Fuller was less famous, successful and revered than Spielberg. Fuller was a million times the filmmaker that Spielberg was in Spielberg’s eighties blockbuster heyday. I doubt Spielberg ever went through the bizarre last-minute duct tape emergencies that Fuller accepted as normal.

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    • Replies: @Anon
    Sam Fuller was less famous, successful and revered than Spielberg. Fuller was a million times the filmmaker that Spielberg was

    Fuller sold far fewer tickets but he's been REVERED in the film community. Spielberg is admired certainly but hardly respected. He got some respect with Schindler and Saving, but even they had plenty of detractors, esp in retrospect. (I think both films work with violence but the drama is too conventional.)

    Fuller made some interesting films certainly and was a maverick of sorts. But I think his films are generally crude, simple-minded, and ridiculous. SHOCK CORRIDOR is a legendary film among cinephiles, but I found it hilarious when not boring.

    Because Fuller served in WWII, I have a certain respect for BIG RED ONE, but I can't tell it apart from many Hollywood WWII movies made by directors who never saw war.

    Fuller benefited greatly from Auteurism. He was treated as a legend. But if we go through his films one by one, there isn't much there.

    Maverickery isn't enough. Now, Nicholas Ray was a maverick and had a perverse side and also truly special talent. JOHNNY GUITAR, what a movie.

    , @Mr. Anon

    Fuller was a million times the filmmaker that Spielberg was in Spielberg’s eighties blockbuster heyday.
     
    The 80s may have been Spielberg's blockbuster heydey, but it was not his best decade. That was the 70s: Duel, The Sugarland Express, JAWS, and Close Encounters of the Third Kind. Fuller never made a movie as good as any of those.

    I doubt Spielberg ever went through the bizarre last-minute duct tape emergencies that Fuller accepted as normal.
     
    I really don't care what tribulations an artist goes through for his art. I only care about the final product. Spielberg's is better.
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  105. @Mr. Anon
    I tend to be much more impressed by writers who have actually done something in their lives worth writing about. Joseph Heller fought in WWII - he flew 60 combat missions in a B-25. Likewise, Norman Mailer and Kurt Vonnegut were both combat veterans. War is certainly an intense experience. So many novelists now are just office drones - lit professors. They have known little of life at the extreme. Why should I particularly care what they think?

    Whenever aspiring writers ask me for advice, I usually tell ’em this:

    Don’t just write there, do something. Learn how to shingle a roof, or tap-dance, or raise sled dogs. Because if you don’t do anything, you wind up like Obama and Fineman – men for whom words are props and codes and metaphors but no longer expressive of anything real.

    Mark Steyn, 2010

    http://www.ocregister.com/2010/01/22/mark-steyn-browns-truckin-obama-shifts-into-reverse/

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  106. @Anon
    In some ways, the Nobel Lit has become more elitist.

    It's hard to think future Nobels will be given to popular writers such as

    Pearl Buck, John Galsworthy, Sinclair Lewis, Henryk Sienkiewicz, Kipling, Tagore, Sholokhov, and even Hemingway and Steinbeck.

    And Churchill got one. When will another politician or statesman win?

    “When will another politician or statesman win?”
    Obama, real soon.

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  107. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @J.Ross
    Sam Fuller was less famous, successful and revered than Spielberg. Fuller was a million times the filmmaker that Spielberg was in Spielberg's eighties blockbuster heyday. I doubt Spielberg ever went through the bizarre last-minute duct tape emergencies that Fuller accepted as normal.

    Sam Fuller was less famous, successful and revered than Spielberg. Fuller was a million times the filmmaker that Spielberg was

    Fuller sold far fewer tickets but he’s been REVERED in the film community. Spielberg is admired certainly but hardly respected. He got some respect with Schindler and Saving, but even they had plenty of detractors, esp in retrospect. (I think both films work with violence but the drama is too conventional.)

    Fuller made some interesting films certainly and was a maverick of sorts. But I think his films are generally crude, simple-minded, and ridiculous. SHOCK CORRIDOR is a legendary film among cinephiles, but I found it hilarious when not boring.

    Because Fuller served in WWII, I have a certain respect for BIG RED ONE, but I can’t tell it apart from many Hollywood WWII movies made by directors who never saw war.

    Fuller benefited greatly from Auteurism. He was treated as a legend. But if we go through his films one by one, there isn’t much there.

    Maverickery isn’t enough. Now, Nicholas Ray was a maverick and had a perverse side and also truly special talent. JOHNNY GUITAR, what a movie.

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    • Replies: @J.Ross
    I meant in terms of awards. And how does anyone look sideways at an African shaman society made into a metaphor for the Klan?
    , @dfordoom

    Fuller made some interesting films certainly and was a maverick of sorts. But I think his films are generally crude, simple-minded, and ridiculous. SHOCK CORRIDOR is a legendary film among cinephiles, but I found it hilarious when not boring.
     
    Fuller was one of the great bad film-makers, while Spielberg is merely your basic Hollywood hack.
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  108. @Anon
    I notice Roth has some reviewing problems on Amazon. My rule of thumb for judging books on that site is that if a book's total of 1 & 2 star reviews starts reaching around 20%, the book is an absolute stinker. 10% is okay, because 10% is pretty meaningless (sort of the way 10% undecided on any survey means you just asked some dumb people), but 20% means you've got perceptive readers who think the author is a blockhead. Roth has several books with bad reviews reaching the 20% range.

    Undoubtedly some people think Roth deserves an award just because he's been around a long time. This is a common phenomenon, whereby ordinary minds praise writers because they're 'The Guy They've Read,' when they were younger, and these persons haven't done enough reading since to gain any critical perspective. This is why that talentless hack Stephen King is being lauded as a classic writer by bozos who ought to know better.

    'The Guy They've Read' syndrome is an absolute plague in fiction. When the Armed Services gave away 155,000-odd books of The Great Gatsby to GIs in World War II, a book that sold all of 153 copies in its first two years after publication, that stupid little book entered the American literary canon and stuck there like a fork in the eyeball instead dying the quiet death it deserved, because a lot of guys with 100-point IQs read it and very little else in their adult life, so they were overly impressed by it.

    This Side of Paradise is good, but Gatsby was unique in its time. You won’t find many novels, written so early, that combine the stylistic objectivity of Hemingway with the saccharine emotional insight that is the curse of twenty-somethings everywhere.

    The result—and I say this in admiration—is the closest to an 80s synthwave pop song in novel form you’re every likely to find:

    The bar is in full swing, and floating rounds of cocktails permeate the garden outside, until the air is alive with chatter and laughter, and casual innuendo and introductions forgotten on the spot, and enthusiastic meetings between women who never knew each other’s names.

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  109. @Anon
    I notice Roth has some reviewing problems on Amazon. My rule of thumb for judging books on that site is that if a book's total of 1 & 2 star reviews starts reaching around 20%, the book is an absolute stinker. 10% is okay, because 10% is pretty meaningless (sort of the way 10% undecided on any survey means you just asked some dumb people), but 20% means you've got perceptive readers who think the author is a blockhead. Roth has several books with bad reviews reaching the 20% range.

    Undoubtedly some people think Roth deserves an award just because he's been around a long time. This is a common phenomenon, whereby ordinary minds praise writers because they're 'The Guy They've Read,' when they were younger, and these persons haven't done enough reading since to gain any critical perspective. This is why that talentless hack Stephen King is being lauded as a classic writer by bozos who ought to know better.

    'The Guy They've Read' syndrome is an absolute plague in fiction. When the Armed Services gave away 155,000-odd books of The Great Gatsby to GIs in World War II, a book that sold all of 153 copies in its first two years after publication, that stupid little book entered the American literary canon and stuck there like a fork in the eyeball instead dying the quiet death it deserved, because a lot of guys with 100-point IQs read it and very little else in their adult life, so they were overly impressed by it.

    Have to say I haven’t read Gatsby since I was around 20 and at that time not a reader, and like you said did enjoy it. Not too long ago I read a book or two of his, can’t remember the titles, but one was I think his last book, about a Hollywood mogul. Ah yes, the other was Tender is the Night. I was not so impressed. Also, read A Moveable Feast by the excremental Hemingway, which, besides being utter shite, had a long episode involving Hem and Fitz driving a long distance drunk I think in a car. Twaddle comes to mind. Somerset Maugham, on the other hand, is sterling whenever I pick him up (albeit rarely these days).

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  110. @Anonymous
    Have to agree with you, even though I sometimes find him and his work objectionable. So what? His greatest work is nothing short of stunning. I can't even explain him. Who can explain the occurrence of genius?

    Meanwhile, Alice Munro won the Nobel Prize? I had no idea, and I was happier when I had no idea.

    The Canadian WASP Gordon Lightfoot is better than Dylan, some of whose work is pretentious (Tarantula) or overwrought and dated (“Blowin’ in the Wind”). Lightfoot has suffered as an alien to the East Coast rock critics for whom Mr. Zimmerman is kin, countryman and political polestar.

    Lightfoot’s “The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald” will be sung long after Bob Dylan is little more than a footnote to the history of 60s political upheaval in the U. S.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Lightfoot is good, but I couldn't say he's better than Stan Rogers.
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  111. @Dave Pinsen
    Haruki Murakami is good, but overrated. The most interesting part of The Wind-Up Bird Chronicle was the part set in Manchuria in World War 2, which was likely lightly fictionalized history he'd read. And it had the flimsiest connection to the rest of the novel set in the '80s. Basically, a veteran decides to tell the '80s protagonist his story, even though they barely know each other.

    The '80s story largely consists of a 30-something year old man doing mundane things in his apartment after his wife has left him. Maybe this influenced Knausgaard.

    Murakami's 1Q84 is nicely atmospheric and suspenseful but fizzles in its last act. I liked Ryu Murakami's From The Fatherland, With Love better.

    The Literature Nobel has always been uneven, with the least deserving winners winning because of their left wing politics and the most deserving in spite of theirs. Dylan is an excellent songwriter, but giving a Nobel to a man who seemingly hasn't read a novel since high school was a joke, which Dylan repaid by apparently cribbing most of his acceptance speech from Cliffs Notes.

    ‘Dylan is an excellent songwriter, but giving a Nobel to a man who seemingly hasn’t read a novel since high school was a joke, which Dylan repaid by apparently cribbing most of his acceptance speech from Cliffs Notes.’

    Good final observation, there. Actually, the final two. I disagree that he’s a great songwriter, though I’ve always been a fan. But his songs, since I hit, say, high school, don’t really move me much, catchy though they often are. I always have in the back of my mind that it’s all sort of crap, that none of it’s sincere, though he’s renowned for the very fact of his supposed deep sincerity way back in the sixties and beyond. Watching that Sixty Minutes interview with Ed Bradley, you got to see more who he really is, a (possibly satanic, according to himself) phoney.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous

    ‘Dylan is an excellent songwriter, but giving a Nobel to a man who seemingly hasn’t read a novel since high school was a joke, which Dylan repaid by apparently cribbing most of his acceptance speech from Cliffs Notes.’

    Good final observation, there. Actually, the final two. I disagree that he’s a great songwriter, though I’ve always been a fan. But his songs, since I hit, say, high school, don’t really move me much, catchy though they often are. I always have in the back of my mind that it’s all sort of crap, that none of it’s sincere, though he’s renowned for the very fact of his supposed deep sincerity way back in the sixties and beyond. Watching that Sixty Minutes interview with Ed Bradley, you got to see more who he really is, a (possibly satanic, according to himself) phoney.
     
    I had Zimmy pegged as a bullshit slinger in the first year I started listening to modern pop/rock music seriously. The only time in his career he actually brought anything like sincerity to his work was his first two 'Christian' albums. I think he really did go for the Jesus thing for a while. The third was artistically good but you could tell it was wearing thin with him.
    , @Dave Pinsen
    He's not my favorite, but he clearly has songwriting talent. One example: a fragment of a song he wrote became the core of the country song below that has 116k likes as of now, despite not getting much radio airplay (a more commercial version by Darius Rucker did get airplay).

    In terms of lyrics, though, I don't know if he's the best songwriter, and I don't know if even the best lyricist should have been considered for a Nobel.

    This couplet by Bruce Springsteen, from "Prove It All Night", though cliched, is more compactly evocative than anything that immediately comes to mind by Dylan:

    Baby, tie your hair back in a long white bow,
    Meet me in the fields out behind the dynamo
     
    https://youtu.be/1gX1EP6mG-E
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  112. @Mr. Anon
    Some Nobel laureates in literature were probably worthy of the honor. Many were not.

    I find it hard to take the award seriously given that neither Joseph Conrad nor Robert Graves won it.

    It only just started around the time of Conrad, didn’t it? Graves definitely doesn’t deserve it–a weirdo, a freak, an English aristocrat. What did he write? Poetry that very few have read. Shitloads of strange very opinionated pieces ABOUT poetry–tons of seemingly random likes and dislikes. Fuck that dude. Translated The 12 Caesars, did the rather trashy I Claudius. Never read ‘King Jesus’ or ‘Wife to Mr. Milton’, but who did, born after, say, 1960? I’ll give you that he can be interesting, if maddening. ‘Only one or two true poets are born in a century’, or something like that. Say what? How the F do you know? Oh, yes of course, because you ARE one. Not just one, but THE one. Oh, and so was your dad, and your great friend Thomas Hardy. And all his ‘muses’ and little hangers-on.
    I say, the man pisses me off!

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    • Replies: @Mr. Anon

    It only just started around the time of Conrad, didn’t it?
     
    The first Nobel in literature was awarded in 1901, only two years after Heart of Darkness was published; 23 years before Conrad died.

    Translated The 12 Caesars, did the rather trashy I Claudius.
     
    The caesars were themselves often rather trashy, so it's no surprize that a novel about them would be so too. It was a great novel. The continuation, Claudius the God, was also pretty good. And then he also wrote the very good Count Belesarius. One could argue that Graves wrote the best historical novels of the twentieth century, perhaps even that he defined the twentieth century historical novel. He also wrote an excellent and interesting memoir about his army service in WWI.

    That's four really good books (apart from everything else he wrote) - already more significant than anything written by Dario Fo or Harold Pinter.
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  113. @Anon
    Allen’s work peaked in the 80s, nothing he made since is very good.

    You have aptly named yourself Dumbo.

    I mean that is so wrong. Allen's early comedies are forever, but he didn't want to be a clown forever(like Mel Brooks). And then he tried to combine adult comedy with drama in movies like ANNIE HALL and MANHATTAN that have NOT aged well. Worse, he made SERIOUS movies, and they all sucked except for CRIMES AND MISDEMEANORS(but then it too has balance of funny and serious). Allen was confused in the late 70s, as was the culture itself. Andrew Sarris called MANHATTAN the best film of the 70s, but I think he later changed his mind. I mean he had to. Also, Allen at the time was too busy riffing on Bergman, Fellini, and others to really develop his own sensibility as Woody Allen. HANNAH AND HER SISTERS works pretty well, but it owes too much to Bergman. Now, BROADWAY DANNY ROSE owes something to Fellini, but he was really beginning to find his own voice there. It is a film you can enjoy without referencing other films.

    But Allen's finest work came with MANHATTAN MURDER MYSTERY, a true marvel in every way. And he finally made another really good serious movie with BLUE JASMINE, and it is not about Jews.

    Then maybe his “own sensibility as Woody Allen” wasn’t very good, and he was better copying Fellini and Bergman and others.

    In the 90s he made two good movies, “Deconstructing Harry” and “Manhattan Murder Mystery”, which is however just a good comedy. There were maybe one or two others that were memorable, or maybe not, because i have forgotten them. “Husband and Wives”?

    Anyway, all I have seen from him since then went from bad to mediocre, even the celebrated ones such as “Match Point”, which was a rehash of his own “Crimes and Misdemeanors”. “Midnight in Paris” had some funny parts, but also seemed a bad copy of his best work.

    Granted, I haven’t seen “Blue Jasmine” nor any of his films in the last 3 or 4 years. The last one I saw I think was that one with Larry David (“Anything Works”, I think), which was awful.

    Maybe it’s me and not him, maybe I just got tired of his schtick, I don’t know. I don’t go to the movies as often and watch mostly old movies (30s-70s). His personal life also rubbed me the wrong way, so I don’t see him with so much sympathy (same with Polanski).

    But other directors got old and had bad characters and still made good movies.

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  114. @Anon
    Sam Fuller was less famous, successful and revered than Spielberg. Fuller was a million times the filmmaker that Spielberg was

    Fuller sold far fewer tickets but he's been REVERED in the film community. Spielberg is admired certainly but hardly respected. He got some respect with Schindler and Saving, but even they had plenty of detractors, esp in retrospect. (I think both films work with violence but the drama is too conventional.)

    Fuller made some interesting films certainly and was a maverick of sorts. But I think his films are generally crude, simple-minded, and ridiculous. SHOCK CORRIDOR is a legendary film among cinephiles, but I found it hilarious when not boring.

    Because Fuller served in WWII, I have a certain respect for BIG RED ONE, but I can't tell it apart from many Hollywood WWII movies made by directors who never saw war.

    Fuller benefited greatly from Auteurism. He was treated as a legend. But if we go through his films one by one, there isn't much there.

    Maverickery isn't enough. Now, Nicholas Ray was a maverick and had a perverse side and also truly special talent. JOHNNY GUITAR, what a movie.

    I meant in terms of awards. And how does anyone look sideways at an African shaman society made into a metaphor for the Klan?

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  115. @HunInTheSun
    The Canadian WASP Gordon Lightfoot is better than Dylan, some of whose work is pretentious (Tarantula) or overwrought and dated ("Blowin' in the Wind"). Lightfoot has suffered as an alien to the East Coast rock critics for whom Mr. Zimmerman is kin, countryman and political polestar.

    Lightfoot's "The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald" will be sung long after Bob Dylan is little more than a footnote to the history of 60s political upheaval in the U. S.

    Lightfoot is good, but I couldn’t say he’s better than Stan Rogers.

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    • Replies: @HunInTheSun
    My hat is off to you sir, Stan Rogers is a cognoscenti's pick, but I doubt that many Americans have heard his work.
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  116. @Jack D
    If we got rid of all the great artists and writers who were degenerates, the museums and libraries would be mostly empty. It's possible to criticize Roth but not to just dismiss him with those 3 words.

    If we got rid of all the great artists and writers who were degenerates, the museums and libraries would be mostly empty

    That might not be entirely a bad thing. There’s plenty of stuff in our libraries and museums that should be consigned to the rubbish heap. The vast majority of the paintings of the past century for starters (and pretty much all of it was indeed created by degenerates).

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    • Replies: @bomag

    If we got rid of all the great artists and writers who were degenerates, the museums and libraries would be mostly empty.... That might not be entirely a bad thing
     
    Agree here. Art should have an element of uplift toward higher ideals. I don't need a window to the world of poop and blood; I get that in real life with great nuance and detail.

    A world with only Norman Rockwell paintings might serve us better.
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  117. @Jack D
    Great novelists are literally the prophets of our age. They write about what is going to happen before it actually happens. Because they have their finger so precisely on the pulse of the Zeitgeist, real life later necessarily conjures up the characters and incidents that they prophecy. In Bonfire of the Vanities, the fictional Rev. Bacon was not based on the real life Rev. Sharpton. Wolfe wrote about it first and reality then inevitably conjured the incident that Wolfe had predicted. He could not have told you exactly where and when this would happen in real life, but just as a chemist knows that if you happen to mix certain chemicals together an explosion will happen, Wolfe knew what the hot buttons of our age were. And not just in broad terms (they are the same always - you don't have to be a genius to say, race, sex, ethnicity, etc. - these are ALWAYS the hot buttons) but with detailed precision.

    Roth is such a writer. Like Wolfe, he is not perfect. They are both very uneven - some of their novels are duds, some are masterpieces. Some of their characters are cardboard cutouts, some of their dialog is unlike human conversation. They also share the attribute of being (thus far) unfilmable. Perversely, this is another sign of greatness. Great art cannot be readily translated into another medium without losing its greatness. Once in a while, a great film artist gets his hands on a great novel and produces something worthwhile, but it's rare.

    Any fool can invent a story. Courtney Milan spits out romance novels by the dozen and no one mistakes them for great art. But to write a work of prophecy (and not just once but repeatedly - anyone can get lucky once) is a sign of greatness. And Roth's personal degeneracy or lack thereof is completely irrelevant. God likes to play jokes on humans and one of his favorite jokes is that he bestows great talent on buffoons, degenerates, idiot savants, ugly dwarfs, etc. (sometimes all concentrated in one person - I'm talking about you, Roman Polanski) . In the fictional Amadeus (but not in real life) Salieri is literally driven insane by this fact. Don't confuse the art with the artist.

    God likes to play jokes on humans and one of his favorite jokes is that he bestows great talent on buffoons, degenerates, idiot savants, ugly dwarfs, etc. (sometimes all concentrated in one person – I’m talking about you, Roman Polanski)

    Great talent? Some talent yes, but great talent? Is Polanski’s body of work really that impressive? OK, Repulsion was a masterpiece. Chinatown was pretty good.

    We know Polanski is a genius because we’re always told he’s a genius.

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    • Replies: @Mr. Anon

    Great talent? Some talent yes, but great talent? Is Polanski’s body of work really that impressive? OK, Repulsion was a masterpiece. Chinatown was pretty good.

    We know Polanski is a genius because we’re always told he’s a genius.
     
    Anyone who has tried to watch The Fearless Vampire Killers might not buy the line about Polansi being a great talent.
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  118. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @daniel le mouche
    'Dylan is an excellent songwriter, but giving a Nobel to a man who seemingly hasn’t read a novel since high school was a joke, which Dylan repaid by apparently cribbing most of his acceptance speech from Cliffs Notes.'

    Good final observation, there. Actually, the final two. I disagree that he's a great songwriter, though I've always been a fan. But his songs, since I hit, say, high school, don't really move me much, catchy though they often are. I always have in the back of my mind that it's all sort of crap, that none of it's sincere, though he's renowned for the very fact of his supposed deep sincerity way back in the sixties and beyond. Watching that Sixty Minutes interview with Ed Bradley, you got to see more who he really is, a (possibly satanic, according to himself) phoney.

    ‘Dylan is an excellent songwriter, but giving a Nobel to a man who seemingly hasn’t read a novel since high school was a joke, which Dylan repaid by apparently cribbing most of his acceptance speech from Cliffs Notes.’

    Good final observation, there. Actually, the final two. I disagree that he’s a great songwriter, though I’ve always been a fan. But his songs, since I hit, say, high school, don’t really move me much, catchy though they often are. I always have in the back of my mind that it’s all sort of crap, that none of it’s sincere, though he’s renowned for the very fact of his supposed deep sincerity way back in the sixties and beyond. Watching that Sixty Minutes interview with Ed Bradley, you got to see more who he really is, a (possibly satanic, according to himself) phoney.

    I had Zimmy pegged as a bullshit slinger in the first year I started listening to modern pop/rock music seriously. The only time in his career he actually brought anything like sincerity to his work was his first two ‘Christian’ albums. I think he really did go for the Jesus thing for a while. The third was artistically good but you could tell it was wearing thin with him.

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  119. @Anon
    Sam Fuller was less famous, successful and revered than Spielberg. Fuller was a million times the filmmaker that Spielberg was

    Fuller sold far fewer tickets but he's been REVERED in the film community. Spielberg is admired certainly but hardly respected. He got some respect with Schindler and Saving, but even they had plenty of detractors, esp in retrospect. (I think both films work with violence but the drama is too conventional.)

    Fuller made some interesting films certainly and was a maverick of sorts. But I think his films are generally crude, simple-minded, and ridiculous. SHOCK CORRIDOR is a legendary film among cinephiles, but I found it hilarious when not boring.

    Because Fuller served in WWII, I have a certain respect for BIG RED ONE, but I can't tell it apart from many Hollywood WWII movies made by directors who never saw war.

    Fuller benefited greatly from Auteurism. He was treated as a legend. But if we go through his films one by one, there isn't much there.

    Maverickery isn't enough. Now, Nicholas Ray was a maverick and had a perverse side and also truly special talent. JOHNNY GUITAR, what a movie.

    Fuller made some interesting films certainly and was a maverick of sorts. But I think his films are generally crude, simple-minded, and ridiculous. SHOCK CORRIDOR is a legendary film among cinephiles, but I found it hilarious when not boring.

    Fuller was one of the great bad film-makers, while Spielberg is merely your basic Hollywood hack.

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    • Replies: @Anon
    Fuller was one of the great bad film-makers, while Spielberg is merely your basic Hollywood hack.

    I can see Fuller's importance. He touched on dark material and not in the preachy manner of Stanley Kramer. And I can see how he inspired a lot of young directors who wanted to break down the barriers of cinema in expression and subject matter. And in some ways, his crudity was also inspiring because it was so unfinished and incomplete. Perfect items elicit admiration but not so much inspiration. After all, how can one top a perfect creation? But when something is interesting and shows promise but seems incomplete, one wants to have his own go at it. In that sense, one can see Fuller's influence on French New Wave and Scorsese and others.

    Spielberg a basic hack? No, that would be someone like Michael Bay or Bryan Singer. Or JJ Abrams. Or the guy who did the yet again sequel to JURASSIC universe. Spiel is a pop visionary.
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  120. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Malcolm X-Lax
    Whenever I hear Hurricane off Desire I think: This is why Plato would ban poets from the Republic. By the end of the song, you’re almost convinced that a grave injustice was done to a great man, which of course is a load of horseshit.

    A certain famous female of my acquaintence who grew up five miles, if that, from where the murders took place told me she knew, as everyone in the area did, Carter did it. She knew a witness. But she has not ever said a word about it and she isn’t going to.

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  121. @Anon
    Roth is a major writer but a subject for the elites and literary community.

    As for the masses, it's rap for the youths and stuff like 50 SHADES OF GREY for women.

    And crass mass culture has infiltrated the Ivies.

    The culture is sado-masochistic.

    http://www.breitbart.com/tech/2017/12/15/princeton-university-to-host-bdsm-sex-tutorial-workshop/

    Women bitch about harassment but make stuff like 50 SHADES into a worldwide phenom. I guess 'punishment' is okay as long as the guy is rich, good-looking, and handsome.

    The S&M goes both way. Men like to lord over women, but they also love playing the white knight, the defender of womenfolk from bestial manhood.
    Women want men of power to come for them but then shriek about 'rape'. Indeed, the outrage is part of the turn-on, just like Jackie Coakley's rape account was also a rape fantasy.

    So, do they want it or not?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9a5-E5Zk3w

    So, do they want it or not?

    Is it that complicated?

    Women like to be abused by a powerful man if and only if it’s meaningful to him, i.e. if he wants to abuse HER, not just any girl.

    50 shades guy was a serial abuser, but monogamous in his abuse. Dominating one slut at a time, not debasing any slut that is in arm’s reach.

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  122. @Anonymous
    Lightfoot is good, but I couldn't say he's better than Stan Rogers.

    My hat is off to you sir, Stan Rogers is a cognoscenti’s pick, but I doubt that many Americans have heard his work.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Damn shame too. His work just doesn't fit into any radio format and has little PC content, most of it anyway, and is often quite specific to Canada in general and the Maritimes in particular. But it is first rate. Irish and Scot Celtic bands play his songs sometimes: they are often heard at SCA type events and in "Irish pubs".

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fhop5VuLDIQ
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  123. @candid_observer
    One of the things I miss about the old timey Jews is the constant and loud disagreement about all variety of ideas.

    I remember a time in NYC in intellectual circles where the thing to do for educated Jews was to debate ideas just for the pure pleasure of the sport. Pretty much nothing was beyond discussion. It seemed a natural extension of Talmudic argument.

    Now the vast majority of Jews seem capable only of asserting their faithful allegiance to one set of ideas, and finding creative ways to shut down discussion.

    Don't know how this happened, exactly.

    Where are the old Jews? I thought they were a pretty good thing when it came to intellectual ferment.

    Where are the old Jews? I thought they were a pretty good thing when it came to intellectual ferment.

    They merged with the WASP (Puritan) establishment and now together rule the western world as a communist project. h/t Moldbug

    The Puritan aspect and the Jewish aspect interact in strange ways, but one result is obvious: anti-semitism will become a state crime as it was in Russia from the very beginning of Soviet rule.

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  124. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @HunInTheSun
    My hat is off to you sir, Stan Rogers is a cognoscenti's pick, but I doubt that many Americans have heard his work.

    Damn shame too. His work just doesn’t fit into any radio format and has little PC content, most of it anyway, and is often quite specific to Canada in general and the Maritimes in particular. But it is first rate. Irish and Scot Celtic bands play his songs sometimes: they are often heard at SCA type events and in “Irish pubs”.

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  125. @daniel le mouche
    It only just started around the time of Conrad, didn't it? Graves definitely doesn't deserve it--a weirdo, a freak, an English aristocrat. What did he write? Poetry that very few have read. Shitloads of strange very opinionated pieces ABOUT poetry--tons of seemingly random likes and dislikes. Fuck that dude. Translated The 12 Caesars, did the rather trashy I Claudius. Never read 'King Jesus' or 'Wife to Mr. Milton', but who did, born after, say, 1960? I'll give you that he can be interesting, if maddening. 'Only one or two true poets are born in a century', or something like that. Say what? How the F do you know? Oh, yes of course, because you ARE one. Not just one, but THE one. Oh, and so was your dad, and your great friend Thomas Hardy. And all his 'muses' and little hangers-on.
    I say, the man pisses me off!

    It only just started around the time of Conrad, didn’t it?

    The first Nobel in literature was awarded in 1901, only two years after Heart of Darkness was published; 23 years before Conrad died.

    Translated The 12 Caesars, did the rather trashy I Claudius.

    The caesars were themselves often rather trashy, so it’s no surprize that a novel about them would be so too. It was a great novel. The continuation, Claudius the God, was also pretty good. And then he also wrote the very good Count Belesarius. One could argue that Graves wrote the best historical novels of the twentieth century, perhaps even that he defined the twentieth century historical novel. He also wrote an excellent and interesting memoir about his army service in WWI.

    That’s four really good books (apart from everything else he wrote) – already more significant than anything written by Dario Fo or Harold Pinter.

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    • Replies: @daniel le mouche
    'And then he also wrote the very good Count Belesarius. One could argue that Graves wrote the best historical novels of the twentieth century, perhaps even that he defined the twentieth century historical novel. He also wrote an excellent and interesting memoir about his army service in WWI.
    That’s four really good books (apart from everything else he wrote) – already more significant than anything written by Dario Fo or Harold Pinter.'

    I'd concede your point. Never read Belesarius. I have read both Claudius books, and did indeed enjoy them, as well as Goodbye to all that. Never even heard of Fo, but Pinter, based solely on his Nobel speech, gets on my nerves. Holier than thou, and his whole point (being English), is that it is beyond disgraceful for anyone or anything English to concede one single thing to anyone or anything American. Such is the land of Anglo Saxons. Also the fact that John Pilger endlessly brings up that stupid little speech. I also once saw Pinter acting in Sartre's Huis Clos.
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  126. @J.Ross
    Sam Fuller was less famous, successful and revered than Spielberg. Fuller was a million times the filmmaker that Spielberg was in Spielberg's eighties blockbuster heyday. I doubt Spielberg ever went through the bizarre last-minute duct tape emergencies that Fuller accepted as normal.

    Fuller was a million times the filmmaker that Spielberg was in Spielberg’s eighties blockbuster heyday.

    The 80s may have been Spielberg’s blockbuster heydey, but it was not his best decade. That was the 70s: Duel, The Sugarland Express, JAWS, and Close Encounters of the Third Kind. Fuller never made a movie as good as any of those.

    I doubt Spielberg ever went through the bizarre last-minute duct tape emergencies that Fuller accepted as normal.

    I really don’t care what tribulations an artist goes through for his art. I only care about the final product. Spielberg’s is better.

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  127. @dfordoom

    God likes to play jokes on humans and one of his favorite jokes is that he bestows great talent on buffoons, degenerates, idiot savants, ugly dwarfs, etc. (sometimes all concentrated in one person – I’m talking about you, Roman Polanski)
     
    Great talent? Some talent yes, but great talent? Is Polanski's body of work really that impressive? OK, Repulsion was a masterpiece. Chinatown was pretty good.

    We know Polanski is a genius because we're always told he's a genius.

    Great talent? Some talent yes, but great talent? Is Polanski’s body of work really that impressive? OK, Repulsion was a masterpiece. Chinatown was pretty good.

    We know Polanski is a genius because we’re always told he’s a genius.

    Anyone who has tried to watch The Fearless Vampire Killers might not buy the line about Polansi being a great talent.

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    • Agree: dfordoom
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  128. @guest
    What did Shakespeare do with his life? We barely know. Jane Austen? Nothing.

    Lives worth reading about may be worth reading about, but they're really neither here nor there regarding the ability to produce great writing. You can always steal interesting material.

    What did Shakespeare do with his life? We barely know. Jane Austen? Nothing.

    Yes, that is true. There have been great writers who lead rather prosaic lives. But nowadays, almost all of them are journalists or academics, as are almost everyone they know. They are boring people, with boring lives, and it shows in what they write – even in what they chose to write about.

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  129. @stillCARealist
    I suspect morning grouchiness is more related the frequency of hangovers. A good night of sober sleep can really work wonders for people. That, and getting plenty of protein in one's breakfast.

    Could be, but do Bosnians or whatever Zlatan is drink more than Swedes? I don’t know.

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  130. @daniel le mouche
    'Dylan is an excellent songwriter, but giving a Nobel to a man who seemingly hasn’t read a novel since high school was a joke, which Dylan repaid by apparently cribbing most of his acceptance speech from Cliffs Notes.'

    Good final observation, there. Actually, the final two. I disagree that he's a great songwriter, though I've always been a fan. But his songs, since I hit, say, high school, don't really move me much, catchy though they often are. I always have in the back of my mind that it's all sort of crap, that none of it's sincere, though he's renowned for the very fact of his supposed deep sincerity way back in the sixties and beyond. Watching that Sixty Minutes interview with Ed Bradley, you got to see more who he really is, a (possibly satanic, according to himself) phoney.

    He’s not my favorite, but he clearly has songwriting talent. One example: a fragment of a song he wrote became the core of the country song below that has 116k likes as of now, despite not getting much radio airplay (a more commercial version by Darius Rucker did get airplay).

    In terms of lyrics, though, I don’t know if he’s the best songwriter, and I don’t know if even the best lyricist should have been considered for a Nobel.

    This couplet by Bruce Springsteen, from “Prove It All Night”, though cliched, is more compactly evocative than anything that immediately comes to mind by Dylan:

    Baby, tie your hair back in a long white bow,
    Meet me in the fields out behind the dynamo

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  131. @Mr. Anon
    Interesting. He was an interesting character. Have you read his WWI memoir, Goodbye To All That? Well worth it.

    Thanks. I will try to read it this coming year. I know that walking factoid about him but have not read anything by Robert Graves.

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  132. @Mr. Anon

    It only just started around the time of Conrad, didn’t it?
     
    The first Nobel in literature was awarded in 1901, only two years after Heart of Darkness was published; 23 years before Conrad died.

    Translated The 12 Caesars, did the rather trashy I Claudius.
     
    The caesars were themselves often rather trashy, so it's no surprize that a novel about them would be so too. It was a great novel. The continuation, Claudius the God, was also pretty good. And then he also wrote the very good Count Belesarius. One could argue that Graves wrote the best historical novels of the twentieth century, perhaps even that he defined the twentieth century historical novel. He also wrote an excellent and interesting memoir about his army service in WWI.

    That's four really good books (apart from everything else he wrote) - already more significant than anything written by Dario Fo or Harold Pinter.

    ‘And then he also wrote the very good Count Belesarius. One could argue that Graves wrote the best historical novels of the twentieth century, perhaps even that he defined the twentieth century historical novel. He also wrote an excellent and interesting memoir about his army service in WWI.
    That’s four really good books (apart from everything else he wrote) – already more significant than anything written by Dario Fo or Harold Pinter.’

    I’d concede your point. Never read Belesarius. I have read both Claudius books, and did indeed enjoy them, as well as Goodbye to all that. Never even heard of Fo, but Pinter, based solely on his Nobel speech, gets on my nerves. Holier than thou, and his whole point (being English), is that it is beyond disgraceful for anyone or anything English to concede one single thing to anyone or anything American. Such is the land of Anglo Saxons. Also the fact that John Pilger endlessly brings up that stupid little speech. I also once saw Pinter acting in Sartre’s Huis Clos.

    Read More
    • Replies: @BB753
    It's (((Pinter))), actually.
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  133. @daniel le mouche
    'And then he also wrote the very good Count Belesarius. One could argue that Graves wrote the best historical novels of the twentieth century, perhaps even that he defined the twentieth century historical novel. He also wrote an excellent and interesting memoir about his army service in WWI.
    That’s four really good books (apart from everything else he wrote) – already more significant than anything written by Dario Fo or Harold Pinter.'

    I'd concede your point. Never read Belesarius. I have read both Claudius books, and did indeed enjoy them, as well as Goodbye to all that. Never even heard of Fo, but Pinter, based solely on his Nobel speech, gets on my nerves. Holier than thou, and his whole point (being English), is that it is beyond disgraceful for anyone or anything English to concede one single thing to anyone or anything American. Such is the land of Anglo Saxons. Also the fact that John Pilger endlessly brings up that stupid little speech. I also once saw Pinter acting in Sartre's Huis Clos.

    It’s (((Pinter))), actually.

    Read More
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  134. @dfordoom

    If we got rid of all the great artists and writers who were degenerates, the museums and libraries would be mostly empty
     
    That might not be entirely a bad thing. There's plenty of stuff in our libraries and museums that should be consigned to the rubbish heap. The vast majority of the paintings of the past century for starters (and pretty much all of it was indeed created by degenerates).

    If we got rid of all the great artists and writers who were degenerates, the museums and libraries would be mostly empty.… That might not be entirely a bad thing

    Agree here. Art should have an element of uplift toward higher ideals. I don’t need a window to the world of poop and blood; I get that in real life with great nuance and detail.

    A world with only Norman Rockwell paintings might serve us better.

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  135. @Jonathan Silber
    That novel of the Old West, Lonesome Dove, by Larry McMurtry, deserves a Nobel Prize, and likely will be read with pleasure for a long, long time.

    Lonesome Dove, by Larry McMurtry

    That novel stands out whenever I reflect on life: camaraderie; leadership; male – female dynamic; hardship and loss.

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  136. the anti-Jewish/Palestinian solidarity thing

    If that were the case, Dylan would be similarly stained:

    The neighborhood bully been driven out of every land
    He’s wandered the earth an exiled man
    Seen his family scattered, his people hounded and torn
    He’s always on trial for just being born…

    Every empire that’s enslaved him is gone
    Egypt and Rome, even the great Babylon
    He’s made a garden of paradise in the desert sand
    In bed with nobody, under no one’s command
    He’s the neighborhood bully.

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  137. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @dfordoom

    Fuller made some interesting films certainly and was a maverick of sorts. But I think his films are generally crude, simple-minded, and ridiculous. SHOCK CORRIDOR is a legendary film among cinephiles, but I found it hilarious when not boring.
     
    Fuller was one of the great bad film-makers, while Spielberg is merely your basic Hollywood hack.

    Fuller was one of the great bad film-makers, while Spielberg is merely your basic Hollywood hack.

    I can see Fuller’s importance. He touched on dark material and not in the preachy manner of Stanley Kramer. And I can see how he inspired a lot of young directors who wanted to break down the barriers of cinema in expression and subject matter. And in some ways, his crudity was also inspiring because it was so unfinished and incomplete. Perfect items elicit admiration but not so much inspiration. After all, how can one top a perfect creation? But when something is interesting and shows promise but seems incomplete, one wants to have his own go at it. In that sense, one can see Fuller’s influence on French New Wave and Scorsese and others.

    Spielberg a basic hack? No, that would be someone like Michael Bay or Bryan Singer. Or JJ Abrams. Or the guy who did the yet again sequel to JURASSIC universe. Spiel is a pop visionary.

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  138. Philip Roth is clearly being shunned for the Nobel Prize in literature

    How dare they not award a jew every year!

    The nerve of these goys!

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