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We Three Kings

From The Daily Mail:

The forefathers of Europe: Two thirds of modern European men descend from just THREE Bronze Age leaders

Scientists analysed the DNA of 334 modern European men

They found distinct paternal families originating 3,500 to 7,300 years ago

Mutations in the DNA suggest these families sprung from just three men

Their descendants spread across Europe around 2,000 to 4,000 years ago

By Richard Gray for MailOnline
PUBLISHED: 11:45 EST, 19 May 2015 | UPDATED: 12:24 EST, 28 May 2015

Here’s the academic paper.

More than 60 per cent of males in modern-day Europe descend from three Bronze Age leaders.

Genetic researchers estimate that three families in particular, which originated around 5,000 years ago, rapidly expanded across the continent.

And the study suggests that the spread of modern populations across Europe occurred much later than had originally been thought.

The researchers found three distinct recent mutations that occurred in 63% of the men tested – I1, R1a and R1b – as shown in the diagram (a) above. The map marked (b) shows the populations the scientists tested and the proportion of their DNA that is made up from each of the mutations shown in the diagram marked a
The researchers found three distinct recent mutations that occurred in 63% of the men tested – I1, R1a and R1b – as shown in the diagram (a) above. The map marked (b) shows the populations the scientists tested and the proportion of their DNA that is made up from each of the mutations shown in the diagram marked a

Rather than occurring during the Palaeolithic period as hunter-gatherers moved across the continent, it appears that most modern populations appear to have settled in Europe after the spread of farming during the Neolithic.

Professor Mark Jobling, a geneticist at the University of Leicester who led the research, said it was likely the forefathers of the three main paternal lineages detected were powerful Early Bronze Age tribe leaders.

THE 11 FATHERS OF ASIA
More than 800 million men living today are descended from just eleven men, including the ruthless Mongolian leader Genghis Khan, according to new research.

…The researchers also found that another of the lineages appears to have population clusters that are concentrated along the Silk Road trading route and date back to around 850AD.

This suggests they may have their origins among the powerful rulers who dominated the steppes where the route passed – the Khitan, Tangut Xia, Juchin, Kara-Khitan and Mongol empires.

He said: ‘The population expansion falls within the Bronze Age, which involved changes in burial practices, the spread of horse-riding and developments in weaponry.

‘Dominant males linked with these cultures could be responsible for the Y chromosome patterns we see today.’

The researchers, whose work is published in the journal Nature Communications, analysed the DNA sequences from the Y chromosomes of 334 men from 17 populations across Europe and the Middle East.

These included men from England, Bavaria, Orkney, Turkey, Greece, Norway, and Hungary.

They searched for mutations on the Y chromosome that are only carried by men, and so can be used to trace paternal lines through families.

By comparing the DNA from each of the populations they were able to trace key mutations in the genomes and work out when they may have occurred.

They found one mutation appears to have originated around 4,750 to 7,340 years ago and is prevalent in Norwegian and Orkadian populations.

Another mutation seems to have occurred between 3,700 and 6,500 years ago and has spread throughout Spain, Italy, France, England and Ireland.

A third mutation seems to have occurred in a man who lived between 3,470 and 5,070 years ago and is prominent in the Sami in Lapland, Norwegian, Danish, Frisia populations in the Netherlands, but can also be found in France, Hungary, Serbia and Bavaria.

Together, the scientists estimate from their findings, that these three paternal lines account for 63 per cent of the European men currently living.

In 2013 there were approximately 742.5 million people living in Europe, and if this had an equal gender split, would leave 371.25 million males.

Two thirds of this works out at around 233 million people being descendants of this trio – however, this is an estimate due to the fact it is not known how many of these people originated in Europe.

While it is unclear exactly who the men were that first fathered these paternal lines, it is likely that they were influential or powerful individuals.

The pie-charts show the frequencies of Y-chromosome groups across regions. One mutation was found to be prevalent in Norwegian and Orkadian populations. Another mutation spread throughSpain, Italy, France, England and Ireland, and a third is prominent in the Netherlands, France, Hungary, Serbia and Bavaria

…. Stonehenge (above) is thought to have been built by Neolithic inhabitants of Britain but the new research suggests they were largely replaced by the descendants of Bronze Age leaders who spread through Europe

This is because people in positions of power tend to travel more widely and father far more children than their inferiors.

Recent research suggested that 16 million men across the world could be related to Genghis Khan, the Mongol leader who died in 1227.

The study traced a cluster of extremely similar Y chromosome DNA back to a single ancestor who lived in Mongolia around 800 years ago

 
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  1. More than 60 per cent of males in modern-day Europe descend from three Bronze Age leaders.

    Doesn’t that also mean that 60% of European women descend from the same three people? Or am I missing something?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Travis
    since men were polygamous during the Bronze age, the leading men of the time would have impregnated dozens of females. So there would be more women who had offspring than males , just like today. More males die childless than women, which has been true since the beginning of man.
    , @helena
    I played around with haplogroups for a while but when I look back at my maps they're a bit confusing. But I came to the conclusion that the world could be divided into about 7-10 male territories, such as R in west asia, O in east Asia, Q in the Americas, E in Africa, N in north Asia. That's not to say that other haplogroups aren't around, but just looking at the dominant (pre-colonial) haplogroups in a region. The pattern for women is not the same in each region. In west asia, female R (which is a macrogroup made up of Rh, Rv, Ru) also makes up 50-60% of women (Rh being by far the most prevalent). But in East Asia there is a consistent pattern of MNR haplogroups across the region. In Africa there is L(1,2,3) and M is particularly found in India. I found it fascinating and seems to indicate more pair-binding in west asia and more polygamy in east asia. There are four female haplogroups in the Americas but they seem to settle separately (with male Q) rather than all four occurring together in the same area. There also seems to be a distinct divide between west and east asia. There is a R haplogroup in east asia but it is different from the h,u,v R in west asia. Clear as mud! https://culturalandscape.wordpress.com/2012/06/21/maternal-paternal-bonding/
    https://culturalandscape.wordpress.com/2013/10/09/circles-in-a-spiral-2/
    https://culturalandscape.wordpress.com/2012/03/22/human-migrations-and-cultures/

    I based it all on McDonalds maps from Illinois so you can try figuring it out for yourself:
    http://www.scs.illinois.edu/~mcdonald/worldmtdnamap.pdf
    , @Weltanschauung
    Yes, you and dozens of other commentators are missing the phrase "paternal lineages" from the cited paper.

    The Daily Mail garbles this into "paternal families", which is unhelpful. The men in question were not necessarily what we now think of as good family men.
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  2. Anon says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    Cremes vs memes

    Those three kings creamed a lot of women and begat many kids who multiplied over and over.

    Oddly enough, all those Europeans came to worship the King of kings, Jesus, who had no kids.
    Jesus conceived of a meme that fertilized the minds.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Mr. John Q. Ananymous
    For some reason, that video reminded me of Donald Trump's words in the "Access Hollywood" tape that was in the news last fall - "When you're a star, they let you do it."
  3. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    In these days of anti alpha-male Trump hysteria, the ‘patriarchy’ lives. And lives in all of us.

    Read More
  4. I am instinctively skeptical of these types of claims that crop up every few years. Not that they are untrue (they may be), but that they probably don’t mean what we instinctively think (three kings impregnated tens of thousands of ladies).

    The classic progeny math: I and my wife have three children. My three children and their spouses have three children each (9 total). Repeat not very many generations, and I have personally populated the universe.

    So rather than our instinctive reaction (we are all descended from three kings: ergo, those three kings raped tens of thousands), its probably something more mundane:

    we are all descended from three kings. Those three kings had perhaps 15 children-who were all reasonably wealthy and powerful (i.e. weren’t peasants who starved to death), who scattered to control provinces, who had 5 children each, who tended not to be peasants who starved to death, but scattered to be mayors or businessmen or generals, who’s children had 5 kids each, who generally remained wealthy and scattered to run an ore mine or shipping business or wagon factory, and so on and so on. In other words, the wealth and power of those three kings simply created economic security for their progeny which allowed the spread of their DNA.

    Not quite as sexy as mass gangbangs in the year 1000.

    joeyjoejoe

    Read More
    • Replies: @Inquiring Mind
    The y-DNA result simply confirms my "Rodriguez Theory."

    The y-chromosome inherited only by the male is like the patriarchal last name -- only sons pass on the last name to their children (not totally -- hyphenated names, weird guys like that di Blasio dude in NY, but bear with me on this). Fathers who only have daughters do not pass on their family name to the next generation.

    This means that with each generation you have winnowing of last names. If this continues long enough, society will be down to one last name, and the statistical likelihood is that this name will be "Rodriguez."
    , @Sean
    There aren't three queens; precisely because the descendants were the result of the opposite of gangbangs.
    , @anon
    Some math analysis shows that human family "tree" is not a tree but a graph and hence after about 33 or so generations, we are all descended from anyone who was alive about 1000 years back; assuming a very conservative fertility of 4 fertile offspring per couple.

    { 2^33 is about 8 billion, current population of the planet. 33 generations is about 1000 years }

    Large numbers are interesting but very unintuitive; For example:

    Everybody alive today (actually every living being that breaths, say) inhales air exhaled by Jesus Christ in every breath! (substitute Buddha, Gandhi, Napoleon, Hitler, Washington as you like)

    https://rsloan.newsvine.com/_news/2009/05/03/2768580-the-odds-that-youll-breathe-a-single-molecule-of-air-that-once-traveled-through-the-lungs-of-jesus
  5. So we have something in common with thoroughbreds, who are all descended from three studs.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Father O'Hara
    Did they know each other? "Glug my man! How you doin'?" "Klek! I got 99 problems but a bitch ain't one!"
  6. The paradox of human existence: rape & war are evil but we wouldn’t exist or have comfortable technology without them.

    Read More
  7. In 2013 there were approximately 742.5 million people living in Europe, and if this had an equal gender split, would leave 371.25 million males.
    Two thirds of this works out at around 233 million people being descendants of this trio – however, this is an estimate due to the fact it is not known how many of these people originated in Europe.

    I love this genius math.

    Perhaps it’s a symptom of our age to sorta have a vague meta-belief that men and women are separate groups–afterall women are part of the “oppressed”, right?

    Or maybe it’s just a reflection of the incredible sloppiness of thought you see in so much journalism today? Or sloppiness of–or no–editing?

    But clearly if 233 million males are “descendants of this trio”, then the 233 million women who are their sisters or daughters are also “descendants of this trio”, even though they don’t carry a y-chromosome to prove it. Men and women aren’t separate races. Outside of leftist deconstruction and societal destruction, we kinda “fit” together.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Philippe Lemoine
    That's a good point, but to be fair, the focus of the article seems to be clearly on the number of male descendants, although the authors sometimes express themselves in a misleading way.
  8. 60% is a large number. Which side of the bell curve do they reside on?

    In other news: London, BosNYWash, and California have found a celebrity red neck they like:

    Hillbilly Elegy author JD Vance on Barack Obama: ‘We dislike the things we envy’

    His memoir about growing up poor in Appalachia is one of the most discussed political books of the moment. Does he have political ambitions of his own?

    https://www.theguardian.com/books/2017/jan/25/hillbilly-elegy-jd-vance-barack-obama-interview

    Read More
    • Replies: @Lugash
    Yep, he's positioning himself.

    His return to Ohio tells a different story. As well as his nonprofit, Vance is also embarking on a listening tour, attending GOP events in the state, and enlisted the support of Jai Chabria, a former top adviser to the Republican governor, John Kasich. As the Washington Post observed: “Every step that Vance is taking is exactly what a sophisticated person in his position who wanted to run for statewide office would do.”
     
    Just what America needs, another Yale lawyer Silicon Valley venture capitalist telling us how to live. And he makes a strange leap from nobody to the 1%; there's zero evidence, but its one of those things that make you go hmmm.
  9. This reminds me of the conjecture that Odin/Wotan is a vague memory of some factual war leader of the distant past. Mind you I still reject the conjecture since it seems to be evidence-free.

    In the Old Testament things seem to be the other way round, with Abraham, David, and others being fabricated from old Canaanite gods.

    Read More
    • Replies: @backup
    A number of Anglo-Saxon royal houses claimed to be descendant from Wotan, but also provide a pedigree of Wotan.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Saxon_royal_genealogies#Ancestry_of_Woden
  10. I’m surprised to see I1 as one of the three. I’m an I1 male, and know we were hunter gatherers. The R1a’s and R1b’s were the proto-Indo-Europeans, with a warrior class, who’d tamed the horses of the caucuses, and tamed livestock. I’m not at all surprised they are represented so highly; more surprised any other haplogroups are represented at all.

    Read More
    • Replies: @anon
    imo the steppe dudes picked up I1 in Scandinavia and I1 then spread south with them during the Germanic expansions.

    (imo hinted at in Norse mythology with the Vanir and Aesir as two sets of gods who allied after an initial war - or alternatively the Jotun who the Aesir both fought with and intermarried.

    (or, taking it too far but still fun: Vanir R1b, Aesir R1a, Jotun I1).
  11. Mutations in the DNA suggest these families sprung from just three men

    Interestingly, their names were Trump, Le Pen and Farage.

    Read More
  12. OT – Murder in Iceland

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jan/23/iceland-gripped-by-rare-case-as-womans-body-is-found

    It will be interesting to see what the two Greelandic sailors look like.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    It's the usual NYT story constructed in inverted order from the Daily Mail, with the interesting info buried deep within it.
  13. OT:

    http://observer.com/2017/01/do-punch-nazis-anti-semite-white-supremacist-richard-spencer/

    The left is now openly calling for violence against “Nazis” (ie, anyone they disagree with). This is going to get ugly sooner than I thought. The left used to merely insinuate their calls for violence, as well as many of their real positions on the issues. This seems like a major turning point.

    Read More
    • Replies: @mukat
    It was inevitable that state-sanctioned violence (antifa) would leap the pond to the U.S. The difference will be that the FBI will have less tolerance for planned Nazi-hunting. (Emphasis on planned). The FBI shut down the eco-terrorism movement pretty quickly.
    , @anon
    They advocate violence against people who advocate ethnic cleansing.

    The Left advocate the global ethnic cleansing of white people so they ought to be punching themselves in the face.
  14. interesting but misleading and done with a small sample size.

    These Y haplogroups they discuss are far older than 30,000 years.
    FTDNA is a DNA testing firm which specializes in sequencing the Y chromosome. they have a project for men who have tested as R1B , which is the most common haplogroup in European males. the Group has 14,000 members. As a member of the study we can compare how far back to our closest male relative…of the 14,000 in the study most of us have a common ancestor greater than 20,000 years ago while my closest match indicate we have a common GGGG Grandfather about 400 years ago. They have broken down R1b into dozens of subclades, most of which are over 5,000 years old. Thus I have found about 125 matches at FTDNA which have a common ancestor who lived 4,000 years ago and another 250 matches whom I share a common ancestor from 6,500 years ago while most of the other 12,000 R1b males have an even greater genealogical distance.

    thus from my knowledge concerning R1b it seems that thousands of males had this haplogroup 5,000 years ago. The article implies that one man who lived 4,000 years ago gave us this common haplogroup, which is false. Most of the men who have the R1B haplogroup have a common ancestor who lived more than 20,000 years ago.

    Read More
    • Replies: @gcochran
    You're wrong: the TMRCA of R1B - almost all of it - really is about 5000 years. From sequencing the Y chromosome, not microsatellites - and calibrated by ancient DNA.
  15. @AnotherDad

    In 2013 there were approximately 742.5 million people living in Europe, and if this had an equal gender split, would leave 371.25 million males.
    Two thirds of this works out at around 233 million people being descendants of this trio – however, this is an estimate due to the fact it is not known how many of these people originated in Europe.
     
    I love this genius math.

    Perhaps it's a symptom of our age to sorta have a vague meta-belief that men and women are separate groups--afterall women are part of the "oppressed", right?

    Or maybe it's just a reflection of the incredible sloppiness of thought you see in so much journalism today? Or sloppiness of--or no--editing?

    But clearly if 233 million males are "descendants of this trio", then the 233 million women who are their sisters or daughters are also "descendants of this trio", even though they don't carry a y-chromosome to prove it. Men and women aren't separate races. Outside of leftist deconstruction and societal destruction, we kinda "fit" together.

    That’s a good point, but to be fair, the focus of the article seems to be clearly on the number of male descendants, although the authors sometimes express themselves in a misleading way.

    Read More
  16. Haplogroup I1 was in Europe already. It goes back to Cro-Magnon times. When talking origins it’s a bit sloppy to group I1 with the Rs – the Rs came with Indo-european migrations 3000 – 5000 years ago.
    R1B has a tendency towards western Europe, R1A has a tendency towards eastern. Think – the more Russian, the more likely R1A, the more Italian or British Isles, the more likely R1B, the more in the middle, the more an even R1B / R1A split. One guesses that Celts, Latins, Hellenics and Germans (latter defined as Germanic tribes of Roman times, not necessarily what we know as modern Germans) tended on the R1B side. Modern Nordics are a rich mix of I and R.
    J and G account for most of the remaining 37%, and we have them to thank for spreading agriculture and animal husbandry up the Danube as well as for expansive sea trade. Might have been a more interesting article to note 5 great…granddads account for 95%+ of modern Europeans (and yes: all Europeans, men and women, h/t @Anotherdad above).
    A good simple picture plants I1 (And I2) in Europe to start with as far back as 20-25k ybp, then notices G and J diffusing in along the Danube and around the coasts from Anatolia as far back as 9-11K ybp, and then recognizes R1A and R1B moving in around 5000 ybp but as recently as 1500-2000 ybp, from north of the Black Sea.

    Read More
  17. Recent research suggested that 16 million men across the world could be related to Genghis Khan, the Mongol leader who died in 1227.
    The study traced a cluster of extremely similar Y chromosome DNA back to a single ancestor who lived in Mongolia around 800 years ago

    This is the kind of sexy, sexed up research that gets you US Federal grants and that even lo-information types understand. Of course this is true! Isn’t it!? A researcher found out that it was true so it must be true.
    In other news,four cups of black unsweetened coffee a day will increase your brain cells count. Regenerate brain cells.

    Read More
  18. @Milo Minderbinder
    OT - Murder in Iceland

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jan/23/iceland-gripped-by-rare-case-as-womans-body-is-found

    It will be interesting to see what the two Greelandic sailors look like.

    It’s the usual NYT story constructed in inverted order from the Daily Mail, with the interesting info buried deep within it.

    Read More
  19. Those darn Aryans!

    Did the three men sport a toothbrush mustache and a fashy haircut?

    Read More
    • Replies: @SimplePseudonymicHandle
    It's difficult to justify a claim that I1 was Indo-European (i.e.: "Aryan").
    Nordic - yes.
    Aryan/Indo-European - no.
    If there's an affiliation of language/culture with these, especially at the distant proximity of time we're talking about, it would be of R1A and R1B both being Indo-European. J2A got swept up here and there in it too. Long stretch of an argument to put the I-haplogroups in that.
    That said - I know you're being tongue-in-cheek.
    , @Anonymous
    Hitler was E1b, like Obama, and thus not Aryan.
  20. @joeyjoejoe
    I am instinctively skeptical of these types of claims that crop up every few years. Not that they are untrue (they may be), but that they probably don't mean what we instinctively think (three kings impregnated tens of thousands of ladies).

    The classic progeny math: I and my wife have three children. My three children and their spouses have three children each (9 total). Repeat not very many generations, and I have personally populated the universe.

    So rather than our instinctive reaction (we are all descended from three kings: ergo, those three kings raped tens of thousands), its probably something more mundane:

    we are all descended from three kings. Those three kings had perhaps 15 children-who were all reasonably wealthy and powerful (i.e. weren't peasants who starved to death), who scattered to control provinces, who had 5 children each, who tended not to be peasants who starved to death, but scattered to be mayors or businessmen or generals, who's children had 5 kids each, who generally remained wealthy and scattered to run an ore mine or shipping business or wagon factory, and so on and so on. In other words, the wealth and power of those three kings simply created economic security for their progeny which allowed the spread of their DNA.

    Not quite as sexy as mass gangbangs in the year 1000.

    joeyjoejoe

    The y-DNA result simply confirms my “Rodriguez Theory.”

    The y-chromosome inherited only by the male is like the patriarchal last name — only sons pass on the last name to their children (not totally — hyphenated names, weird guys like that di Blasio dude in NY, but bear with me on this). Fathers who only have daughters do not pass on their family name to the next generation.

    This means that with each generation you have winnowing of last names. If this continues long enough, society will be down to one last name, and the statistical likelihood is that this name will be “Rodriguez.”

    Read More
    • Replies:
    Exactly. In fact (depending on your assumptions regarding TFR and generation time) only 0.5% of Y-chromosomes extant 5000 years ago survive to the present.

    But that said, it is still hard to get to the top 3 accounting for 60% unless the male population of Europe was very small 5000 years ago, numbering only a few thousand, OR the distribution of offspring was wildly non-gaussian.
  21. @George
    60% is a large number. Which side of the bell curve do they reside on?

    In other news: London, BosNYWash, and California have found a celebrity red neck they like:

    Hillbilly Elegy author JD Vance on Barack Obama: 'We dislike the things we envy'

    His memoir about growing up poor in Appalachia is one of the most discussed political books of the moment. Does he have political ambitions of his own?

    https://www.theguardian.com/books/2017/jan/25/hillbilly-elegy-jd-vance-barack-obama-interview

    Yep, he’s positioning himself.

    His return to Ohio tells a different story. As well as his nonprofit, Vance is also embarking on a listening tour, attending GOP events in the state, and enlisted the support of Jai Chabria, a former top adviser to the Republican governor, John Kasich. As the Washington Post observed: “Every step that Vance is taking is exactly what a sophisticated person in his position who wanted to run for statewide office would do.”

    Just what America needs, another Yale lawyer Silicon Valley venture capitalist telling us how to live. And he makes a strange leap from nobody to the 1%; there’s zero evidence, but its one of those things that make you go hmmm.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Barnard
    I thought from first hearing about him that Vance's backstory had some holes in it. It will be interesting to see what all comes out when he decided to run for public office.
  22. @Stealth
    OT:

    http://observer.com/2017/01/do-punch-nazis-anti-semite-white-supremacist-richard-spencer/

    The left is now openly calling for violence against "Nazis" (ie, anyone they disagree with). This is going to get ugly sooner than I thought. The left used to merely insinuate their calls for violence, as well as many of their real positions on the issues. This seems like a major turning point.

    It was inevitable that state-sanctioned violence (antifa) would leap the pond to the U.S. The difference will be that the FBI will have less tolerance for planned Nazi-hunting. (Emphasis on planned). The FBI shut down the eco-terrorism movement pretty quickly.

    Read More
  23. Therw is no way to know the period these men lived. The “molecular clock” method they use for estimating ages of y chromosome lines is simply guesswork. There is a good possibility the common ancestor goes back further…without necessarily discounting the now-revived Aryan Invasion Theory.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sean
    One lineage may have exploded in the Bronze age, but Somerled is a good bet for one of them and Charlemagne seems a possible fit for the other.

    https://www.theguardian.com/science/commentisfree/2015/may/24/business-genetic-ancestry-charlemagne-adam-rutherford

  24. @I, Libertine
    So we have something in common with thoroughbreds, who are all descended from three studs.

    Did they know each other? “Glug my man! How you doin’?” “Klek! I got 99 problems but a bitch ain’t one!”

    Read More
  25. @Travis
    interesting but misleading and done with a small sample size.

    These Y haplogroups they discuss are far older than 30,000 years.
    FTDNA is a DNA testing firm which specializes in sequencing the Y chromosome. they have a project for men who have tested as R1B , which is the most common haplogroup in European males. the Group has 14,000 members. As a member of the study we can compare how far back to our closest male relative...of the 14,000 in the study most of us have a common ancestor greater than 20,000 years ago while my closest match indicate we have a common GGGG Grandfather about 400 years ago. They have broken down R1b into dozens of subclades, most of which are over 5,000 years old. Thus I have found about 125 matches at FTDNA which have a common ancestor who lived 4,000 years ago and another 250 matches whom I share a common ancestor from 6,500 years ago while most of the other 12,000 R1b males have an even greater genealogical distance.

    thus from my knowledge concerning R1b it seems that thousands of males had this haplogroup 5,000 years ago. The article implies that one man who lived 4,000 years ago gave us this common haplogroup, which is false. Most of the men who have the R1B haplogroup have a common ancestor who lived more than 20,000 years ago.

    You’re wrong: the TMRCA of R1B – almost all of it – really is about 5000 years. From sequencing the Y chromosome, not microsatellites – and calibrated by ancient DNA.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Travis
    not according to the Full Y Tree. For example, L21 is a subclade of R1b and was created 7,500 years ago. Less than 25% of the R1B males are part of the L21 subclade.

    L21 has 45 subclades immediately below D13 with an estimated TMRC of 7,400 years ago and 75 subclades have survived from 2,500 BC. Thus just looking at one of the R1b haplogroups (L21) indicates over 100 unique subclades 6,500 years ago.
    While L21 is a major subclade of R1B , 20% of English males are L21 but just 2% of German males. Thus most RiB males will not be L21 , thus have a common ancestor further back in time than the L21 which is 7,500 years old...
  26. Actually, it could be three men plus their fathers, brothers, sons and paternal half-brothers. I do not think there is a way a way to distinguish th Y past that level of granularity.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jonathan Mason

    Actually, it could be three men plus their fathers, brothers, sons and paternal half-brothers.
     
    No, because all you are saying is that the three men were actually
    the grandfathers of the three men you are talking about.
  27. @Hugh

    More than 60 per cent of males in modern-day Europe descend from three Bronze Age leaders.
     
    Doesn't that also mean that 60% of European women descend from the same three people? Or am I missing something?

    since men were polygamous during the Bronze age, the leading men of the time would have impregnated dozens of females. So there would be more women who had offspring than males , just like today. More males die childless than women, which has been true since the beginning of man.

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  28. @joeyjoejoe
    I am instinctively skeptical of these types of claims that crop up every few years. Not that they are untrue (they may be), but that they probably don't mean what we instinctively think (three kings impregnated tens of thousands of ladies).

    The classic progeny math: I and my wife have three children. My three children and their spouses have three children each (9 total). Repeat not very many generations, and I have personally populated the universe.

    So rather than our instinctive reaction (we are all descended from three kings: ergo, those three kings raped tens of thousands), its probably something more mundane:

    we are all descended from three kings. Those three kings had perhaps 15 children-who were all reasonably wealthy and powerful (i.e. weren't peasants who starved to death), who scattered to control provinces, who had 5 children each, who tended not to be peasants who starved to death, but scattered to be mayors or businessmen or generals, who's children had 5 kids each, who generally remained wealthy and scattered to run an ore mine or shipping business or wagon factory, and so on and so on. In other words, the wealth and power of those three kings simply created economic security for their progeny which allowed the spread of their DNA.

    Not quite as sexy as mass gangbangs in the year 1000.

    joeyjoejoe

    There aren’t three queens; precisely because the descendants were the result of the opposite of gangbangs.

    Read More
  29. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    OT – Dear Steve, as a follow up to my comment in your thread about mongolians in japanese Sumo wrestling, the Ozeki I told you about, Kisenosato, has been promoted to Yokozuna at last. The first japanese born Yokozuna since Wakanohana was promoted in 1998.

    To give some perspective on how good Kisenosato is, the following table shows, for each of the last eight Yokozuna (columns,) the results (wins-losses) they had in the six tournaments preceeding their promotion (rows.) The last row shows the ratio of wins per fights. As you can see, only one wrestler (Takanohana) was better than Kisenosato, and yet Kisenosato has just one Yusho (tournament win) to his name (double border ball in the table – a single border ball means lost play-off.)

    I wouldn’t be an iSteve reader for so many years if I weren’t able to notice patterns myself. The reason why mongolians have dominated Ozumo is because they had one absolutely great wrestler (Hakuho) as a gatekeeper, who, if not in position to win a tournament, would favor another mongolian, while fighting like mad against any japanese pretender. The result was the building of the mongolian yokozuna wall.

    If you doubt it, first, Harumafuji weights too light for the number of tournament wins he has considering the current weight pattern. Second, the record of Yokozuna Kakuryu is abysmal if compared to Kisenosato’s.

    There is no HBD justification for the present mongolian dominance in Sumo, only group strategy, intentional or not. Beyond the period in which mongolian Yokozuna Asashoryu and Hakuho were arguably a veritable HBD mongolian wall, there was only group strategy, which crumbled when there was no longer at least a pair of mongolians well positioned to win a tournament.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    When did Mongolians ever team up to take over anything?

    Oh ... yeah ...

  30. @candid_observer
    Those darn Aryans!

    Did the three men sport a toothbrush mustache and a fashy haircut?

    It’s difficult to justify a claim that I1 was Indo-European (i.e.: “Aryan”).
    Nordic – yes.
    Aryan/Indo-European – no.
    If there’s an affiliation of language/culture with these, especially at the distant proximity of time we’re talking about, it would be of R1A and R1B both being Indo-European. J2A got swept up here and there in it too. Long stretch of an argument to put the I-haplogroups in that.
    That said – I know you’re being tongue-in-cheek.

    Read More
  31. @gcochran
    You're wrong: the TMRCA of R1B - almost all of it - really is about 5000 years. From sequencing the Y chromosome, not microsatellites - and calibrated by ancient DNA.

    not according to the Full Y Tree. For example, L21 is a subclade of R1b and was created 7,500 years ago. Less than 25% of the R1B males are part of the L21 subclade.

    L21 has 45 subclades immediately below D13 with an estimated TMRC of 7,400 years ago and 75 subclades have survived from 2,500 BC. Thus just looking at one of the R1b haplogroups (L21) indicates over 100 unique subclades 6,500 years ago.
    While L21 is a major subclade of R1B , 20% of English males are L21 but just 2% of German males. Thus most RiB males will not be L21 , thus have a common ancestor further back in time than the L21 which is 7,500 years old…

    Read More
    • Replies: @gcochran
    In the article, they fully sequenced a segment of the Y chromosome, which gives far more (and easier to understand) information than previous work using microsatellite variation.

    They have the best info.
  32. @Hail
    Therw is no way to know the period these men lived. The "molecular clock" method they use for estimating ages of y chromosome lines is simply guesswork. There is a good possibility the common ancestor goes back further...without necessarily discounting the now-revived Aryan Invasion Theory.

    One lineage may have exploded in the Bronze age, but Somerled is a good bet for one of them and Charlemagne seems a possible fit for the other.

    https://www.theguardian.com/science/commentisfree/2015/may/24/business-genetic-ancestry-charlemagne-adam-rutherford

    Read More
    • Replies: @gcochran
    You're wrong.
    , @Lot
    French kings generally were not very fertile. Nor were English kings (with a few exceptions) or Roman Emperors.

    In English history the King's BFF seems to usually have a lot more surviving children.

    A large portion of the direct male line of illegitimate sons of kings should have the surname Fitzroy, but it is actually a fairly rare name.
  33. I hope someone has sequenced the Trump genome, we need to know where the magic came from

    Read More
  34. So do people who descend from these three men have more in common with each other than people who don’t? Does race still not exist?

    I’d like to hear a geneticist open up about the double personality they have to develop to work in that field. I bet they’ve got a word for the difference between “real language” used among themselves and “media language” for anything that could get in the papers.

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  35. OT

    Based Brian Eno ?

    https://www.theguardian.com/music/2017/jan/23/brian-eno-not-interested-in-talking-about-me-reflection

    “Most people I know felt that 2016 was the beginning of a long decline with Brexit, then Trump and all these nationalist movements in Europe. It looked like things were going to get worse and worse. I said: ‘Well, what about thinking about it in a different way?’ Actually, it’s the end of a long decline. We’ve been in decline for about 40 years since Thatcher and Reagan and the Ayn Rand infection spread through the political class, and perhaps we’ve bottomed out. My feeling about Brexit was not anger at anybody else, it was anger at myself for not realising what was going on. I thought that all those Ukip people and those National Fronty people were in a little bubble. Then I thought: ‘Fuck, it was us, we were in the bubble, we didn’t notice it.’ There was a revolution brewing and we didn’t spot it because we didn’t make it. We expected we were going to be the revolution.”

    He draws me a little diagram to explain how society has changed – productivity and real wages rising in tandem till 1975, then productivity continuing to rise while real wages fell. “It is easily summarised in that Joseph Stiglitz graph.”

    Also OT “Irish could be minority ethnic group by 2050″

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/irish-could-be-minority-ethnic-group-here-by-2050-professor-1.424517

    Read More
    • Replies: @Olorin

    Then I thought: ‘Fuck, it was us, we were in the bubble, we didn’t notice it.’ There was a revolution brewing and we didn’t spot it because we didn’t make it. We expected we were going to be the revolution.”
     
    Brian Eno has had his head up his downspout for a very long time, so this is hilarious to read.
    , @anon

    He draws me a little diagram to explain how society has changed – productivity and real wages rising in tandem till 1975, then productivity continuing to rise while real wages fell. “It is easily summarised in that Joseph Stiglitz graph.”
     
    Exactly so.

    (and that lost middle class disposable income would have gone into demand instead of being locked up in the 1%'s stored wealth)

    , @Lurker
    Wow, he's noticed the problem! Is he going to face up to dealing with it or continue to throw in his lot with the useful idiots?
  36. @Lugash
    Yep, he's positioning himself.

    His return to Ohio tells a different story. As well as his nonprofit, Vance is also embarking on a listening tour, attending GOP events in the state, and enlisted the support of Jai Chabria, a former top adviser to the Republican governor, John Kasich. As the Washington Post observed: “Every step that Vance is taking is exactly what a sophisticated person in his position who wanted to run for statewide office would do.”
     
    Just what America needs, another Yale lawyer Silicon Valley venture capitalist telling us how to live. And he makes a strange leap from nobody to the 1%; there's zero evidence, but its one of those things that make you go hmmm.

    I thought from first hearing about him that Vance’s backstory had some holes in it. It will be interesting to see what all comes out when he decided to run for public office.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    I haven't read Vance's book yet, but it seems to me like the kind of first effort that used to be published as a novel but in the 21st Century, publishers demand it be marketed as a memoir. Writing a book about how your relatives are big screw-ups is a standard first book for literary young people, but the old valorization of fiction over fact gave some "plausible deniability" to the people who look bad in it. But now everything is supposed to be a memoir.
  37. As the primate in the zoo asked: ” Does this mean I am my keeper’s brother?”

    Read More
  38. How much of this is the ‘Eve effect’ – all women alive today descend from one human female that lived in Africa ~50k years or so ago – that’s because all other female lines were interruped at one time or another by a women who only had sons, only this particular women (fancifully dubbed ‘Eve’) has uniterrupted female lineage down to our times.

    Read More
    • Replies: @dearieme
    Mitochondrial DNA from the mother is carried by both sons and daughters.
    , @Whoever
    The Eve theory came from the dissertation research Rebecca Cann did in the late 1970s when she was a Berkeley Ph.D student of Alan Wilson (she got her doctorate in 1982; she did her postdoc at Howard Hughes Medical Institute). She studied the mtDNA of 147 living individuals and calibrated a mitochondrial clock for human evolution that indicated a recent (200,000 years or so) common ancestor of all the mitochondria she studied, "Mitochondrial Eve."
    Bone-and-fossil paleoanthropologists said, "Oh,phooey!" and got accused of -- what else? -- Eurocentrism and racism (see, for example, Lieberman and Jackson, "Race and Three Models of Human Origin," American Anthropologist 97(2):231-242). Acrimony ensued. Then the research got popularized and was even on TV (Horizon/Nova). Now everybody has some more or less garbled grasp of the hypothesis.
    The whole episode is an example of what happens when scientific research gets trampled by socio-cultural politics, or whatever you'd want to call it--people seizing on rather esoteric research to push an ascientific agenda.
  39. Awhile back, I gave myself an intellectual exercise. Long and short of it is that virtually everyone is descended from someone very important.

    https://countenance.wordpress.com/2015/11/22/descendants-of-the-signers/

    Read More
    • Replies: @Polymath
    Yes, but Y-descent is a MUCH stronger signal which means that a significant fraction of ALL your DNA comes from some ancient individual, you are descended from millions of ancient individuals including very important ones but likely have only a smidgen of the DNA of each one except the ones whose signal persists in the population through male-only YDNA or female-only MtDNA.
    , @Olorin
    Also virtually everyone is descended from someone not important at all.

    You'd almost think this stuff works out at, say, like, you know, a POPULATION level. Or something.

    But seriously, your math is way off. See "pedigree collapse."

    signed
    Descendant of American Revolutionaries (militia and Continentals)
    Including Continental and First Congressmen

    and

    A whole bunch of guys who just grew food and built stuff and tried not to get obliterated at least till their kids grew up

  40. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @candid_observer
    Those darn Aryans!

    Did the three men sport a toothbrush mustache and a fashy haircut?

    Hitler was E1b, like Obama, and thus not Aryan.

    Read More
  41. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @SimplePseudonymicHandle
    Haplogroup I1 was in Europe already. It goes back to Cro-Magnon times. When talking origins it's a bit sloppy to group I1 with the Rs - the Rs came with Indo-european migrations 3000 - 5000 years ago.
    R1B has a tendency towards western Europe, R1A has a tendency towards eastern. Think - the more Russian, the more likely R1A, the more Italian or British Isles, the more likely R1B, the more in the middle, the more an even R1B / R1A split. One guesses that Celts, Latins, Hellenics and Germans (latter defined as Germanic tribes of Roman times, not necessarily what we know as modern Germans) tended on the R1B side. Modern Nordics are a rich mix of I and R.
    J and G account for most of the remaining 37%, and we have them to thank for spreading agriculture and animal husbandry up the Danube as well as for expansive sea trade. Might have been a more interesting article to note 5 great...granddads account for 95%+ of modern Europeans (and yes: all Europeans, men and women, h/t @Anotherdad above).
    A good simple picture plants I1 (And I2) in Europe to start with as far back as 20-25k ybp, then notices G and J diffusing in along the Danube and around the coasts from Anatolia as far back as 9-11K ybp, and then recognizes R1A and R1B moving in around 5000 ybp but as recently as 1500-2000 ybp, from north of the Black Sea.

    G and J are not Aryan.

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    • Replies: @SimplePseudonymicHandle
    No where in my post did I say G or J are Aryan.

    Disposing with the word Aryan for a minute so we don't have to deal with the overhead:

    Indo-European is all of, either of and non-exclusively:
    1) A very broad cultural spectrum ranging from face-painted Celtic warriors to erudite Sanskrit scholars
    2) An equally broad language spectrum
    3) A vast genetic pool, although when isolated to the Y-chromosome as a tracer, a pool that may be reasonably conjectured to extend somewhere back in time to R1A, R1B, or their forefathers

    As the Indo-European migrations moved about their various places: Iranian, Baltic, Hellenic, Latin, Celtic, etc ... they picked up groups along the way, so that we find in many places that Indo-European culture and language are recognized, and even being spread, the genotype practicing, spreading or else simply being present, includes both G and J.

  42. By the way, this also means that there are also ancient women who contributed an extremely disproportionate share of modern DNA too — the mothers of those chieftains!

    A Facebook friend replied to that point with
    “And that’s why patriarchal bronze age cultures made such a big deal over controlling women’s sexuality.”

    My response:

    That’s not quite right. Many ancient cultures made a big deal of controlling women’s sexuality, and modern cultures too, but it worked out differently in monogamous, polygamous, and despotic societies. The strongest restrictions were in polygamous societies where men wanted to make sure their wives were not straying because it’s hard to keep track of a harem, then in monogamous societies because their advantage was that more men were invested and would fight if they could be sure of having children.

    But this article is about despotic societies where the ruler or his sons could literally have any woman they wanted (which was an atypical society but it only needs to happen for a few decades to transform the gene pool), there were far too many women for the ruling males to control them all but that didn’t matter because they could have different fertile women every night and the other men (and the women) couldn’t prevent it.

    If you father children with 1 woman, you care a lot about paternity but can keep track pretty well. If you father children with 4 women, you care even more because they are harder to keep track of and there are more unmated men sneaking around. But if you father children with 400 women, you just need to make sure that you have sex with as many fertile women as you can every night for the month you keep them around for, and you don’t care what they do before or after because there are a bunch of new concubines next month.

    A rather disturbing corollary is that, just as the genes of those 3 conquering chieftains are extremely common, there are also disproportionately many genes from the kind of women who willingly submitted to such conquering chieftains rather than resisting or running away, because even if they are going to rape women if they have to, there are still likely to be more women in the conquered land than any conquering chieftain can have sex with, so the ones who make it easier for him will be selected for.

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  43. @countenance
    Awhile back, I gave myself an intellectual exercise. Long and short of it is that virtually everyone is descended from someone very important.

    https://countenance.wordpress.com/2015/11/22/descendants-of-the-signers/

    Yes, but Y-descent is a MUCH stronger signal which means that a significant fraction of ALL your DNA comes from some ancient individual, you are descended from millions of ancient individuals including very important ones but likely have only a smidgen of the DNA of each one except the ones whose signal persists in the population through male-only YDNA or female-only MtDNA.

    Read More
    • Replies: @gcochran
    Only the Y-chromosome, which is small and has few genes.

    You don't know what you're talking about.
  44. @Anonymous Nephew
    OT

    Based Brian Eno ?

    https://www.theguardian.com/music/2017/jan/23/brian-eno-not-interested-in-talking-about-me-reflection

    “Most people I know felt that 2016 was the beginning of a long decline with Brexit, then Trump and all these nationalist movements in Europe. It looked like things were going to get worse and worse. I said: ‘Well, what about thinking about it in a different way?’ Actually, it’s the end of a long decline. We’ve been in decline for about 40 years since Thatcher and Reagan and the Ayn Rand infection spread through the political class, and perhaps we’ve bottomed out. My feeling about Brexit was not anger at anybody else, it was anger at myself for not realising what was going on. I thought that all those Ukip people and those National Fronty people were in a little bubble. Then I thought: ‘Fuck, it was us, we were in the bubble, we didn’t notice it.’ There was a revolution brewing and we didn’t spot it because we didn’t make it. We expected we were going to be the revolution.”

    He draws me a little diagram to explain how society has changed – productivity and real wages rising in tandem till 1975, then productivity continuing to rise while real wages fell. “It is easily summarised in that Joseph Stiglitz graph.”
     
    Also OT "Irish could be minority ethnic group by 2050"

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/irish-could-be-minority-ethnic-group-here-by-2050-professor-1.424517

    Then I thought: ‘Fuck, it was us, we were in the bubble, we didn’t notice it.’ There was a revolution brewing and we didn’t spot it because we didn’t make it. We expected we were going to be the revolution.”

    Brian Eno has had his head up his downspout for a very long time, so this is hilarious to read.

    Read More
  45. @countenance
    Awhile back, I gave myself an intellectual exercise. Long and short of it is that virtually everyone is descended from someone very important.

    https://countenance.wordpress.com/2015/11/22/descendants-of-the-signers/

    Also virtually everyone is descended from someone not important at all.

    You’d almost think this stuff works out at, say, like, you know, a POPULATION level. Or something.

    But seriously, your math is way off. See “pedigree collapse.”

    signed
    Descendant of American Revolutionaries (militia and Continentals)
    Including Continental and First Congressmen

    and

    A whole bunch of guys who just grew food and built stuff and tried not to get obliterated at least till their kids grew up

    Read More
    • Replies: @countenance
    That was my point. If we're all descended from a centuries-ago British king, we're also all descended from someone who cleaned horse manure during the reign of that same centuries-ago British king.
  46. Anon says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    One odd thing about the study. Out of that sample, 43% is just one sub-lineage alone, namely R1b-M269. It towers over all the others in quantity, including the YDNA lines that are in 2nd and 3rd place.

    The way things are going now, I predict that in a thousand years everyone in America will be a combo descendant of blacks, hispanics, Amish\Hutterites, and that epitome of helicopter parenting, Ambassador Joe Kennedy.

    R1b-M269 men are very good at creating an environment that allows everyone to flourish and multiply like crazy, including YDNA lines of some extremely worthless men who parasitize off the labors of those R1b-M269 men.

    If R1b-M269 men want to displace other YDNA genelines, they’re going to have to sleep with a lot of brown and black women.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Olorin
    Great comment.

    Displacing genetics isn't what these men are about.

    R1b-M269 men (and the R-L23 and R-M412 men downstream from them) mostly want to build things and be left alone to do it.

    Material things, usually. But also systems that work better. For everybody. And sometimes for nobody--just knowing it works is enough.

    Oh, and also blow objects up. But usually nicely, out of curiosity, to see how different things come apart.

    So they can be rebuilt. Or fixed. Because after all, they're the ones that task falls to, again and again, so might as well have some fun learning how it works by watching how it smashes.

    They're the guys whose ancestors were close to the Big Man--and got to marry his daughters--because they kept everything running.

    If their seed/genes was/were spread, it's because that came after the siege engine worked, the town was rebuilt, the infrastructure established, and the plows started running again, with new innovations in aurochs-yoking, horse tack, sheep-hair-spinning, wood-cutting/-shaping, metallurgy, the collection of water, and fantastic new ideas in wheels, carts, and buckets/barrels.

    Hey, this barrel fell apart! Let's smash some and see what we learn!

    Then back home to teach the kids how to use hand tools. But never quite achieve the understanding that women's feelings can't be "fixed" even if you try hard and harder.

  47. anon says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @RebelWriter
    I'm surprised to see I1 as one of the three. I'm an I1 male, and know we were hunter gatherers. The R1a's and R1b's were the proto-Indo-Europeans, with a warrior class, who'd tamed the horses of the caucuses, and tamed livestock. I'm not at all surprised they are represented so highly; more surprised any other haplogroups are represented at all.

    imo the steppe dudes picked up I1 in Scandinavia and I1 then spread south with them during the Germanic expansions.

    (imo hinted at in Norse mythology with the Vanir and Aesir as two sets of gods who allied after an initial war – or alternatively the Jotun who the Aesir both fought with and intermarried.

    (or, taking it too far but still fun: Vanir R1b, Aesir R1a, Jotun I1).

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Dudes don't "pick up" other dudes' Y-chromosome haplogroups.
  48. anon says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @Stealth
    OT:

    http://observer.com/2017/01/do-punch-nazis-anti-semite-white-supremacist-richard-spencer/

    The left is now openly calling for violence against "Nazis" (ie, anyone they disagree with). This is going to get ugly sooner than I thought. The left used to merely insinuate their calls for violence, as well as many of their real positions on the issues. This seems like a major turning point.

    They advocate violence against people who advocate ethnic cleansing.

    The Left advocate the global ethnic cleansing of white people so they ought to be punching themselves in the face.

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  49. @Barnard
    I thought from first hearing about him that Vance's backstory had some holes in it. It will be interesting to see what all comes out when he decided to run for public office.

    I haven’t read Vance’s book yet, but it seems to me like the kind of first effort that used to be published as a novel but in the 21st Century, publishers demand it be marketed as a memoir. Writing a book about how your relatives are big screw-ups is a standard first book for literary young people, but the old valorization of fiction over fact gave some “plausible deniability” to the people who look bad in it. But now everything is supposed to be a memoir.

    Read More
  50. anon says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @Anonymous Nephew
    OT

    Based Brian Eno ?

    https://www.theguardian.com/music/2017/jan/23/brian-eno-not-interested-in-talking-about-me-reflection

    “Most people I know felt that 2016 was the beginning of a long decline with Brexit, then Trump and all these nationalist movements in Europe. It looked like things were going to get worse and worse. I said: ‘Well, what about thinking about it in a different way?’ Actually, it’s the end of a long decline. We’ve been in decline for about 40 years since Thatcher and Reagan and the Ayn Rand infection spread through the political class, and perhaps we’ve bottomed out. My feeling about Brexit was not anger at anybody else, it was anger at myself for not realising what was going on. I thought that all those Ukip people and those National Fronty people were in a little bubble. Then I thought: ‘Fuck, it was us, we were in the bubble, we didn’t notice it.’ There was a revolution brewing and we didn’t spot it because we didn’t make it. We expected we were going to be the revolution.”

    He draws me a little diagram to explain how society has changed – productivity and real wages rising in tandem till 1975, then productivity continuing to rise while real wages fell. “It is easily summarised in that Joseph Stiglitz graph.”
     
    Also OT "Irish could be minority ethnic group by 2050"

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/irish-could-be-minority-ethnic-group-here-by-2050-professor-1.424517

    He draws me a little diagram to explain how society has changed – productivity and real wages rising in tandem till 1975, then productivity continuing to rise while real wages fell. “It is easily summarised in that Joseph Stiglitz graph.”

    Exactly so.

    (and that lost middle class disposable income would have gone into demand instead of being locked up in the 1%’s stored wealth)

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous Nephew
    I saw it on Twitter with the approximate comment "From weirdest man in England to wisest man in England"
  51. @Anon
    One odd thing about the study. Out of that sample, 43% is just one sub-lineage alone, namely R1b-M269. It towers over all the others in quantity, including the YDNA lines that are in 2nd and 3rd place.

    The way things are going now, I predict that in a thousand years everyone in America will be a combo descendant of blacks, hispanics, Amish\Hutterites, and that epitome of helicopter parenting, Ambassador Joe Kennedy.

    R1b-M269 men are very good at creating an environment that allows everyone to flourish and multiply like crazy, including YDNA lines of some extremely worthless men who parasitize off the labors of those R1b-M269 men.

    If R1b-M269 men want to displace other YDNA genelines, they're going to have to sleep with a lot of brown and black women.

    Great comment.

    Displacing genetics isn’t what these men are about.

    R1b-M269 men (and the R-L23 and R-M412 men downstream from them) mostly want to build things and be left alone to do it.

    Material things, usually. But also systems that work better. For everybody. And sometimes for nobody–just knowing it works is enough.

    Oh, and also blow objects up. But usually nicely, out of curiosity, to see how different things come apart.

    So they can be rebuilt. Or fixed. Because after all, they’re the ones that task falls to, again and again, so might as well have some fun learning how it works by watching how it smashes.

    They’re the guys whose ancestors were close to the Big Man–and got to marry his daughters–because they kept everything running.

    If their seed/genes was/were spread, it’s because that came after the siege engine worked, the town was rebuilt, the infrastructure established, and the plows started running again, with new innovations in aurochs-yoking, horse tack, sheep-hair-spinning, wood-cutting/-shaping, metallurgy, the collection of water, and fantastic new ideas in wheels, carts, and buckets/barrels.

    Hey, this barrel fell apart! Let’s smash some and see what we learn!

    Then back home to teach the kids how to use hand tools. But never quite achieve the understanding that women’s feelings can’t be “fixed” even if you try hard and harder.

    Read More
  52. @Anonymous
    OT - Dear Steve, as a follow up to my comment in your thread about mongolians in japanese Sumo wrestling, the Ozeki I told you about, Kisenosato, has been promoted to Yokozuna at last. The first japanese born Yokozuna since Wakanohana was promoted in 1998.

    To give some perspective on how good Kisenosato is, the following table shows, for each of the last eight Yokozuna (columns,) the results (wins-losses) they had in the six tournaments preceeding their promotion (rows.) The last row shows the ratio of wins per fights. As you can see, only one wrestler (Takanohana) was better than Kisenosato, and yet Kisenosato has just one Yusho (tournament win) to his name (double border ball in the table - a single border ball means lost play-off.)



    I wouldn't be an iSteve reader for so many years if I weren't able to notice patterns myself. The reason why mongolians have dominated Ozumo is because they had one absolutely great wrestler (Hakuho) as a gatekeeper, who, if not in position to win a tournament, would favor another mongolian, while fighting like mad against any japanese pretender. The result was the building of the mongolian yokozuna wall.

    If you doubt it, first, Harumafuji weights too light for the number of tournament wins he has considering the current weight pattern. Second, the record of Yokozuna Kakuryu is abysmal if compared to Kisenosato's.

    There is no HBD justification for the present mongolian dominance in Sumo, only group strategy, intentional or not. Beyond the period in which mongolian Yokozuna Asashoryu and Hakuho were arguably a veritable HBD mongolian wall, there was only group strategy, which crumbled when there was no longer at least a pair of mongolians well positioned to win a tournament.

    When did Mongolians ever team up to take over anything?

    Oh … yeah …

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  53. Trump issued his first two immigration executive orders. The border wall part was excellent.

    The large part about changing DOJ policy was kind of vague and will require personnel changes to mean anything. The stuff about detaining all illegals and people pending deportations is fairly meaningless since there is no space for all of them, but is better than nothing.

    Nothing about DACA, the heavily Muslim visa lottery system, or anything serious about refugee resettlement.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Lot
    Links to the orders

    https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2017/01/25/executive-order-border-security-and-immigration-enforcement-improvements

    https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2017/01/25/presidential-executive-order-enhancing-public-safety-interior-united
    , @Lot
    NYT has a leaked draft of an executive order on refugee programs. Looks like it is about 75% of what mainstream restrictionists want.

    https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/3416383/Trump-EO-Draft-on-Refugees.pdf

    One thing missing is an order that denies admission at the Mexican border of non Mexican asylum claimants. There are a few thousand in Tijuana now from Africa and Central America and Obama's policy was to let in a hundred or so a day, schedule a hearing, then let them loose with no way to track them when they fail to appear. As we learned in Europe, an open gate from Africa will soon attract a flood.
  54. @Jamie_NYC
    How much of this is the 'Eve effect' - all women alive today descend from one human female that lived in Africa ~50k years or so ago - that's because all other female lines were interruped at one time or another by a women who only had sons, only this particular women (fancifully dubbed 'Eve') has uniterrupted female lineage down to our times.

    Mitochondrial DNA from the mother is carried by both sons and daughters.

    Read More
  55. @Lot
    Trump issued his first two immigration executive orders. The border wall part was excellent.

    The large part about changing DOJ policy was kind of vague and will require personnel changes to mean anything. The stuff about detaining all illegals and people pending deportations is fairly meaningless since there is no space for all of them, but is better than nothing.

    Nothing about DACA, the heavily Muslim visa lottery system, or anything serious about refugee resettlement.
    Read More
  56. anon says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @joeyjoejoe
    I am instinctively skeptical of these types of claims that crop up every few years. Not that they are untrue (they may be), but that they probably don't mean what we instinctively think (three kings impregnated tens of thousands of ladies).

    The classic progeny math: I and my wife have three children. My three children and their spouses have three children each (9 total). Repeat not very many generations, and I have personally populated the universe.

    So rather than our instinctive reaction (we are all descended from three kings: ergo, those three kings raped tens of thousands), its probably something more mundane:

    we are all descended from three kings. Those three kings had perhaps 15 children-who were all reasonably wealthy and powerful (i.e. weren't peasants who starved to death), who scattered to control provinces, who had 5 children each, who tended not to be peasants who starved to death, but scattered to be mayors or businessmen or generals, who's children had 5 kids each, who generally remained wealthy and scattered to run an ore mine or shipping business or wagon factory, and so on and so on. In other words, the wealth and power of those three kings simply created economic security for their progeny which allowed the spread of their DNA.

    Not quite as sexy as mass gangbangs in the year 1000.

    joeyjoejoe

    Some math analysis shows that human family “tree” is not a tree but a graph and hence after about 33 or so generations, we are all descended from anyone who was alive about 1000 years back; assuming a very conservative fertility of 4 fertile offspring per couple.

    { 2^33 is about 8 billion, current population of the planet. 33 generations is about 1000 years }

    Large numbers are interesting but very unintuitive; For example:

    Everybody alive today (actually every living being that breaths, say) inhales air exhaled by Jesus Christ in every breath! (substitute Buddha, Gandhi, Napoleon, Hitler, Washington as you like)

    https://rsloan.newsvine.com/_news/2009/05/03/2768580-the-odds-that-youll-breathe-a-single-molecule-of-air-that-once-traveled-through-the-lungs-of-jesus

    Read More
    • Replies: @Lurker
    I think map rather than graph. The interwebs should eventually allow the whole map to be put up and we just find our position. Of course thats already happening.
    , @Almost Missouri

    "after about 33 or so generations, we are all descended from anyone who was alive about 1000 years back"
     
    That would be true, iff each person reproduced randomly with a random other person on earth.

    In reality, people don't mate that way. The mathematical overview of reproductive reality looks more like figure 1. in the Nature article Steve cited.
  57. This is because people in positions of power tend to travel more widely and father far more children than their inferiors.

    Oh. I see. Such persons just “tend to” do these things, do they? Note the now stultifyingly rote profession that these matters just so happen to be; they are the purest coincidences of chance—the capricious and arbitrary whims of inscrutable gods and fairies. Not the slightest acknowldgement must be made to the realities of reproduction: success in sexual and marital markets, sexual dimorphism and the taking by strong males of what they want coupled by the eager acquiescence of females to those same males, etc. Nevermind interactions among populations: the victors and the vanquished; the marauders and the raped. The destruction of peoples and races via miscegenation, be it invidious and subtle or frank and violent. Such ideas might inspire modern readers to awaken to the current state of affairs. Some readers in particular might awaken to the endgame of their oblivious complicity in autogenecide. The scandal!

    Even as they purport to study human interaction and identify meaningful patterns, these writers simultaneously treat the most fundamental aspects thereof as though they were mere molecules of air in a balloon, careening about and colliding with no rhyme or reason whatsoever.

    Will the schizophrenic paradigm necessitated amongst even scientists ever cause their heads to explode? One must wonder.

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  58. @Lot
    Trump issued his first two immigration executive orders. The border wall part was excellent.

    The large part about changing DOJ policy was kind of vague and will require personnel changes to mean anything. The stuff about detaining all illegals and people pending deportations is fairly meaningless since there is no space for all of them, but is better than nothing.

    Nothing about DACA, the heavily Muslim visa lottery system, or anything serious about refugee resettlement.

    NYT has a leaked draft of an executive order on refugee programs. Looks like it is about 75% of what mainstream restrictionists want.

    https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/3416383/Trump-EO-Draft-on-Refugees.pdf

    One thing missing is an order that denies admission at the Mexican border of non Mexican asylum claimants. There are a few thousand in Tijuana now from Africa and Central America and Obama’s policy was to let in a hundred or so a day, schedule a hearing, then let them loose with no way to track them when they fail to appear. As we learned in Europe, an open gate from Africa will soon attract a flood.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Almost Missouri

    "an open gate from Africa will soon attract a flood"
     
    And they won't leave due to some immigration court ruling or deportation order.

    I've known quite a few Africans with "temporary" visas to the US. Every single one of them is still here, even if their visa is not.

    Obama's Aunti Zeituni was the poster child for this. Overstayed her visa. Deportation order. Ignored. Claimed asylum. Case dismissed. Deportation order. Ignored. Stayed here till her dying day. Ignored the law and courts. Never suffered any penalty. Eventually a judge relented and just handed her legal status.

    Lesson: don't bring an African over unless you'd like him as a permanent neighbor. Because he will be.
  59. One thing missing is an order that denies admission at the Mexican border of non Mexican asylum claimants. There are a few thousand in Tijuana now from Africa and Central America

    Also there are a massive number of Haitians coming up from Brazil and some of them throw away their ID documents and claim to be Africans, and so on. It is true that there is no way to track these folks if they fail to appear for parole hearings, but then again, they are not going to be able to get social security numbers, food stamps, work permits, Medicaid or any of the other possible benefits if they disappear, and it is not THAT easy to find a place to live, earn money, and so on, especially if you don’t speak English, which most don’t. If they commit crimes to earn a living, sooner or later they are going to be rounded up.

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  60. Everybody alive today (actually every living being that breaths, say) inhales air exhaled by Jesus Christ in every breath!

    Hence the doctrine of the Holy Spirit.

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  61. @Jamie_NYC
    How much of this is the 'Eve effect' - all women alive today descend from one human female that lived in Africa ~50k years or so ago - that's because all other female lines were interruped at one time or another by a women who only had sons, only this particular women (fancifully dubbed 'Eve') has uniterrupted female lineage down to our times.

    The Eve theory came from the dissertation research Rebecca Cann did in the late 1970s when she was a Berkeley Ph.D student of Alan Wilson (she got her doctorate in 1982; she did her postdoc at Howard Hughes Medical Institute). She studied the mtDNA of 147 living individuals and calibrated a mitochondrial clock for human evolution that indicated a recent (200,000 years or so) common ancestor of all the mitochondria she studied, “Mitochondrial Eve.”
    Bone-and-fossil paleoanthropologists said, “Oh,phooey!” and got accused of — what else? — Eurocentrism and racism (see, for example, Lieberman and Jackson, “Race and Three Models of Human Origin,” American Anthropologist 97(2):231-242). Acrimony ensued. Then the research got popularized and was even on TV (Horizon/Nova). Now everybody has some more or less garbled grasp of the hypothesis.
    The whole episode is an example of what happens when scientific research gets trampled by socio-cultural politics, or whatever you’d want to call it–people seizing on rather esoteric research to push an ascientific agenda.

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  62. I used to think it was implausible that most men with the same Scottish last name could be descended from the same heroic ancestor, that the clansmen were just making stuff up. But the genetic findings show that if last names had existed in Europe 6,000 years ago, today 95 percent of Irishmen would be called something like “R1b-son”.

    In a lot of places you’ll see mismatches between Y-chromosome and autosomal ancestry. 60 percent of Finns carry Y haplogroup N, which is clearly East Asian, but they’re only about 7-10 percent Siberian overall. In Indo-European Europe you see similar stuff: Europeans are 20-40 percent Indo-European genetically, much more so on the Y. There’s a YouTube lecture by a Danish archaeologist named Kristian Kristianson on the Corded Ware Culture where he says:

    New migrants come in, and most of these new migrants, we now know, were young males, or males. Much like today. They are willing to take risks and they are the ones who cannot inherit the herd. There is always a surplus of young males in pastoral groups. They have to find a career. In Denmark, in Jutland, in 90 percent of all burials of the early phase in the barrows, are males. So this is a very strong male dominated migration, in the initial phase. And in the initial phase there’s virtually no material culture…they come with a mobile culture that leaves no traces. Rarely any pottery. Pottery will only come after some generations when they start marrying women.

    I’m forced to imagine Neolithic frat houses appearing all over North Europe, full of horny, low status males who couldn’t cut it in the original steppe motherland. They weren’t able to immediately destroy the Mediterranean farmers who had gotten there first, but after a few decades of co-existence killed off their men folk almost entirely and ran off with the women.

    Maybe letting them come in the first place was a mistake?

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    • Replies: @Expletive Deleted

    95 percent of Irishmen would be called something like “R1b-son”.
     
    or o'R-L21, more like MacDF13. Those three Rathlin Island ?relatives were Food Vessel (local LN/EBA, first half of the 2nd millennium BC, sort of local Beaker with maybe preceding neolithic admixture really, as far as the pots go) and most likely DF21 (a very common Irish/Scottish group, includes MacDonald, MacAuley, Murphy, O'Carroll and so on, although the main line of Mac Donald appears to be R1a1). Rathlin was the last redoubt of Clan Donald in the North where Elizabeth I's forces found and massacred the families of clansmen engaged elsewhere against her.
    https://tudorstuartperspectives.wordpress.com/2015/12/05/somhairle-buidhe-mac-domhnaill-and-the-rathlin-island-massacre/

    https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-df21/about/background
    http://www.pnas.org/content/113/2/368.full.pdf
    http://www.unz.com/gnxp/the-gaels-were-from-scythia/
    http://eurogenes.blogspot.co.uk/2015/12/ancient-genomes-from-ireland-point-to.html
    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6111-Neolithic-and-Bronze-Age-migration-to-Ireland-and-establishment-of-the-insular-Atlant
  63. @FALPhil
    Actually, it could be three men plus their fathers, brothers, sons and paternal half-brothers. I do not think there is a way a way to distinguish th Y past that level of granularity.

    Actually, it could be three men plus their fathers, brothers, sons and paternal half-brothers.

    No, because all you are saying is that the three men were actually
    the grandfathers of the three men you are talking about.

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  64. @Anonymous
    G and J are not Aryan.

    No where in my post did I say G or J are Aryan.

    Disposing with the word Aryan for a minute so we don’t have to deal with the overhead:

    Indo-European is all of, either of and non-exclusively:
    1) A very broad cultural spectrum ranging from face-painted Celtic warriors to erudite Sanskrit scholars
    2) An equally broad language spectrum
    3) A vast genetic pool, although when isolated to the Y-chromosome as a tracer, a pool that may be reasonably conjectured to extend somewhere back in time to R1A, R1B, or their forefathers

    As the Indo-European migrations moved about their various places: Iranian, Baltic, Hellenic, Latin, Celtic, etc … they picked up groups along the way, so that we find in many places that Indo-European culture and language are recognized, and even being spread, the genotype practicing, spreading or else simply being present, includes both G and J.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    G and J aren't part of the Indo-European genotype. They were Neolithic non-Indo-Europeans.
  65. @Travis
    not according to the Full Y Tree. For example, L21 is a subclade of R1b and was created 7,500 years ago. Less than 25% of the R1B males are part of the L21 subclade.

    L21 has 45 subclades immediately below D13 with an estimated TMRC of 7,400 years ago and 75 subclades have survived from 2,500 BC. Thus just looking at one of the R1b haplogroups (L21) indicates over 100 unique subclades 6,500 years ago.
    While L21 is a major subclade of R1B , 20% of English males are L21 but just 2% of German males. Thus most RiB males will not be L21 , thus have a common ancestor further back in time than the L21 which is 7,500 years old...

    In the article, they fully sequenced a segment of the Y chromosome, which gives far more (and easier to understand) information than previous work using microsatellite variation.

    They have the best info.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Travis
    Read the report. He actually did the study in 2014 and had less advanced testing than FTDNA has used since 2015. He only tested 1,453 single-nucleotide polymorphisms while the Big Y testing used at FTDNA tests 36,000 single-nucleotide polymorphisms. "The AMY-tree v1.2 conversion file contains a list of 1,453 known Y-SNPs, of which 490 are present in our data. These 490 sites were used to assign a standard haplogroup"- Thus the author admits to finding just 490 of the 1,453 tested SNPs among their sample of 340 males. While at FTDNA they have 14,000 RiB samples and 5,000 have done advanced SNP testing more advanced than done for this study.

    Since the more advanced testing of the Y started 2 years ago they have discovered hundreds more clades under R1b. Most of them have a TMRCA grater than 5,000 years. Thus we know the R1B men living 6,000 years ago fell into dozens of different clades, thus they did not have the same father or event or even the same GGGGGGrandfather.

    L21 is just one of the dozen major subclades under R1B, and there were dozens of R1B subclades in Europe 7,500 years ago which have survived to modern times.
  66. @Sean
    One lineage may have exploded in the Bronze age, but Somerled is a good bet for one of them and Charlemagne seems a possible fit for the other.

    https://www.theguardian.com/science/commentisfree/2015/may/24/business-genetic-ancestry-charlemagne-adam-rutherford

    You’re wrong.

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    • Replies: @Sean
    Well yes a slapdash comment, but there is a parallel between the Bronze age movement of genes from Norway to Scotland, and the later conquest that Somerled was part of.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandinavian_Scotland#Colonisation_process

    The second of these theories is the genocide hypothesis, which asserts that the aboriginal populations of the Northern and Western Isles were eradicated and replaced wholesale with settlers of Scandinavian stock. The strength of this argument is the almost total replacement of pre-existing place names by those of Norse origin throughout much of the region.[22] Its weakness is that the place name evidence is from a relatively late date and the nature of this transition remains controversial.[25] Genetic studies show that Shetlanders have almost identical proportions of Scandinavian matrilineal and patrilineal ancestry, suggesting that the islands were settled by both men and women in equal measure
     

    , @Sean
    By the way, do you still think genes producing white skin were for "something else" apart from white skin (in women) or have you quietly retracted your confident scoffing at the idea?
  67. @Polymath
    Yes, but Y-descent is a MUCH stronger signal which means that a significant fraction of ALL your DNA comes from some ancient individual, you are descended from millions of ancient individuals including very important ones but likely have only a smidgen of the DNA of each one except the ones whose signal persists in the population through male-only YDNA or female-only MtDNA.

    Only the Y-chromosome, which is small and has few genes.

    You don’t know what you’re talking about.

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    • Replies: @Polymath
    I realized the error too late to edit my post, and thought to myself "gcochran is on this thread, he's going to roast me..."

    While no woman can have her MtDNA persist in a detectable way over a large fraction of the population, as happens with mens' YDNA, the mothers of the men who have a big genetic contribution have half as big a contribution themselves, for the autosomal part. And it is more than just the Y chromosome that those men have a very disproportionate share in.

    Start with the simplifying assumption (which will be adjusted below) that the conquering group which shared the Y chromosome was a bunch of brothers, and that they killed off most of the men and were responsible for fathering much of the next generation. Then their share of the autosomal DNA is half as large as their share of the Y chromosomes, and their mother's share is half that.

    Modifying the simplifying assumption that this advantage only lasted one generation, and making the new assumption that all the advantage is from direct male descendants, while daughters and their sons have no advantage, each additional generation that it lasts for will increase the Y prevalence of the conquerors' DNA by twice as large a factor as it increases the autosomal prevalence. But it seems that most of the effect would happen in the first couple of generations, so that a huge Y prevalence would still entail a significant autosomal share.

    If a large advantage in male reproductive access for this Y group lasted for centuries rather than decades, then my argument is wrong because the autosomal share would fall way behind the Y share. Maybe we know that this was the case, but I'm not familiar with the research demonstrating it.

  68. @anon
    Some math analysis shows that human family "tree" is not a tree but a graph and hence after about 33 or so generations, we are all descended from anyone who was alive about 1000 years back; assuming a very conservative fertility of 4 fertile offspring per couple.

    { 2^33 is about 8 billion, current population of the planet. 33 generations is about 1000 years }

    Large numbers are interesting but very unintuitive; For example:

    Everybody alive today (actually every living being that breaths, say) inhales air exhaled by Jesus Christ in every breath! (substitute Buddha, Gandhi, Napoleon, Hitler, Washington as you like)

    https://rsloan.newsvine.com/_news/2009/05/03/2768580-the-odds-that-youll-breathe-a-single-molecule-of-air-that-once-traveled-through-the-lungs-of-jesus

    I think map rather than graph. The interwebs should eventually allow the whole map to be put up and we just find our position. Of course thats already happening.

    Read More
    • Replies: @anon
    I meant this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graph_(discrete_mathematics)

    not https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graph_of_a_function
  69. @Sean
    One lineage may have exploded in the Bronze age, but Somerled is a good bet for one of them and Charlemagne seems a possible fit for the other.

    https://www.theguardian.com/science/commentisfree/2015/may/24/business-genetic-ancestry-charlemagne-adam-rutherford

    French kings generally were not very fertile. Nor were English kings (with a few exceptions) or Roman Emperors.

    In English history the King’s BFF seems to usually have a lot more surviving children.

    A large portion of the direct male line of illegitimate sons of kings should have the surname Fitzroy, but it is actually a fairly rare name.

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    • Replies: @Sean
    http://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryUK/HistoryofEngland/Nell-Gwyn-Gwynne/ Charles remarked "Oddsfish I am ugly'.

    Over the generations of "Kings" choosing which women enjoyed reproductive success, the offspring would look more and more like the women being chosen, which was a select group from every generation. So the appearance of the whole population would change. The DNA would also change and we know fully white skin spread like wildfire at this time

    Polymath says below


    Modifying the simplifying assumption that this advantage only lasted one generation, and making the new assumption that all the advantage is from direct male descendants, while daughters and their sons have no advantage, each additional generation that it lasts for will increase the Y prevalence of the conquerors’ DNA by twice as large a factor as it increases the autosomal prevalence.
     
    No mix or increasing prevalence of the Kings/women's DNA over generations can explain fully white skin appearing in the Bronze age.
  70. @Anonymous Nephew
    OT

    Based Brian Eno ?

    https://www.theguardian.com/music/2017/jan/23/brian-eno-not-interested-in-talking-about-me-reflection

    “Most people I know felt that 2016 was the beginning of a long decline with Brexit, then Trump and all these nationalist movements in Europe. It looked like things were going to get worse and worse. I said: ‘Well, what about thinking about it in a different way?’ Actually, it’s the end of a long decline. We’ve been in decline for about 40 years since Thatcher and Reagan and the Ayn Rand infection spread through the political class, and perhaps we’ve bottomed out. My feeling about Brexit was not anger at anybody else, it was anger at myself for not realising what was going on. I thought that all those Ukip people and those National Fronty people were in a little bubble. Then I thought: ‘Fuck, it was us, we were in the bubble, we didn’t notice it.’ There was a revolution brewing and we didn’t spot it because we didn’t make it. We expected we were going to be the revolution.”

    He draws me a little diagram to explain how society has changed – productivity and real wages rising in tandem till 1975, then productivity continuing to rise while real wages fell. “It is easily summarised in that Joseph Stiglitz graph.”
     
    Also OT "Irish could be minority ethnic group by 2050"

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/irish-could-be-minority-ethnic-group-here-by-2050-professor-1.424517

    Wow, he’s noticed the problem! Is he going to face up to dealing with it or continue to throw in his lot with the useful idiots?

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  71. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @anon
    imo the steppe dudes picked up I1 in Scandinavia and I1 then spread south with them during the Germanic expansions.

    (imo hinted at in Norse mythology with the Vanir and Aesir as two sets of gods who allied after an initial war - or alternatively the Jotun who the Aesir both fought with and intermarried.

    (or, taking it too far but still fun: Vanir R1b, Aesir R1a, Jotun I1).

    Dudes don’t “pick up” other dudes’ Y-chromosome haplogroups.

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    • Replies: @anon
    allied tribes
    - R1 of some variety enters Scandinavia
    - allies with native I1 group
    - composite group spreads south as germanics
  72. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @SimplePseudonymicHandle
    No where in my post did I say G or J are Aryan.

    Disposing with the word Aryan for a minute so we don't have to deal with the overhead:

    Indo-European is all of, either of and non-exclusively:
    1) A very broad cultural spectrum ranging from face-painted Celtic warriors to erudite Sanskrit scholars
    2) An equally broad language spectrum
    3) A vast genetic pool, although when isolated to the Y-chromosome as a tracer, a pool that may be reasonably conjectured to extend somewhere back in time to R1A, R1B, or their forefathers

    As the Indo-European migrations moved about their various places: Iranian, Baltic, Hellenic, Latin, Celtic, etc ... they picked up groups along the way, so that we find in many places that Indo-European culture and language are recognized, and even being spread, the genotype practicing, spreading or else simply being present, includes both G and J.

    G and J aren’t part of the Indo-European genotype. They were Neolithic non-Indo-Europeans.

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    • Replies: @SimplePseudonymicHandle
    You are providing no information that allows me to know that you've understood my post(s), while asserting some kind of disagreement.

    R, G, J, I, K, E, etc are haplogroups for the Y-chromosome.

    They do not substitute for "Celtic", or "Baltic", or "Iranian", or "Latin", etc.
    Or Russian, or German, or Swede, or British Islander.

    Besides Y - there are 45 other chromosomes, not including mtDNA.

    R1A and R1B, as well as all the other Y-haplogroups, operate only as tracer genes.

    While it's probably defensible to say there is something generalizable as an Indo-European gene pool, I'm guessing right now that you are going to be hard pressed to explain in your own words what you mean by an "Indo-European genotype".

    How do you want to come at it?

    One way would be to talk about why so many people, apparently including the authors of the study, are reflexively and unselfconsciously colluding haplogroup-I in with Indo-European, without examination of the peculiar leaps necessary to do this when it is so remarkably difficult to justify.

    Now think about this: the fact that I'm pointing this out indicates that I don't think you are altogether wrong - but just stating G and J aren't "Aryan" isn't a coherent statement.

    Or, another way to explain the gene pools is to give some examples of what the tracer gene means among the other 45 chromosomes.

    Either way - the "why 'I'?" discussion, or the 46 chromosomes discussion - both lead to coherent definitions of gene pools. You asking to go there, or just another one liner about who is and isn't "aryan"?

  73. @Lot
    NYT has a leaked draft of an executive order on refugee programs. Looks like it is about 75% of what mainstream restrictionists want.

    https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/3416383/Trump-EO-Draft-on-Refugees.pdf

    One thing missing is an order that denies admission at the Mexican border of non Mexican asylum claimants. There are a few thousand in Tijuana now from Africa and Central America and Obama's policy was to let in a hundred or so a day, schedule a hearing, then let them loose with no way to track them when they fail to appear. As we learned in Europe, an open gate from Africa will soon attract a flood.

    “an open gate from Africa will soon attract a flood”

    And they won’t leave due to some immigration court ruling or deportation order.

    I’ve known quite a few Africans with “temporary” visas to the US. Every single one of them is still here, even if their visa is not.

    Obama’s Aunti Zeituni was the poster child for this. Overstayed her visa. Deportation order. Ignored. Claimed asylum. Case dismissed. Deportation order. Ignored. Stayed here till her dying day. Ignored the law and courts. Never suffered any penalty. Eventually a judge relented and just handed her legal status.

    Lesson: don’t bring an African over unless you’d like him as a permanent neighbor. Because he will be.

    Read More
  74. @Anonymous
    G and J aren't part of the Indo-European genotype. They were Neolithic non-Indo-Europeans.

    You are providing no information that allows me to know that you’ve understood my post(s), while asserting some kind of disagreement.

    R, G, J, I, K, E, etc are haplogroups for the Y-chromosome.

    They do not substitute for “Celtic”, or “Baltic”, or “Iranian”, or “Latin”, etc.
    Or Russian, or German, or Swede, or British Islander.

    Besides Y – there are 45 other chromosomes, not including mtDNA.

    R1A and R1B, as well as all the other Y-haplogroups, operate only as tracer genes.

    While it’s probably defensible to say there is something generalizable as an Indo-European gene pool, I’m guessing right now that you are going to be hard pressed to explain in your own words what you mean by an “Indo-European genotype”.

    How do you want to come at it?

    One way would be to talk about why so many people, apparently including the authors of the study, are reflexively and unselfconsciously colluding haplogroup-I in with Indo-European, without examination of the peculiar leaps necessary to do this when it is so remarkably difficult to justify.

    Now think about this: the fact that I’m pointing this out indicates that I don’t think you are altogether wrong – but just stating G and J aren’t “Aryan” isn’t a coherent statement.

    Or, another way to explain the gene pools is to give some examples of what the tracer gene means among the other 45 chromosomes.

    Either way – the “why ‘I’?” discussion, or the 46 chromosomes discussion – both lead to coherent definitions of gene pools. You asking to go there, or just another one liner about who is and isn’t “aryan”?

    Read More
  75. @anon
    Some math analysis shows that human family "tree" is not a tree but a graph and hence after about 33 or so generations, we are all descended from anyone who was alive about 1000 years back; assuming a very conservative fertility of 4 fertile offspring per couple.

    { 2^33 is about 8 billion, current population of the planet. 33 generations is about 1000 years }

    Large numbers are interesting but very unintuitive; For example:

    Everybody alive today (actually every living being that breaths, say) inhales air exhaled by Jesus Christ in every breath! (substitute Buddha, Gandhi, Napoleon, Hitler, Washington as you like)

    https://rsloan.newsvine.com/_news/2009/05/03/2768580-the-odds-that-youll-breathe-a-single-molecule-of-air-that-once-traveled-through-the-lungs-of-jesus

    “after about 33 or so generations, we are all descended from anyone who was alive about 1000 years back”

    That would be true, iff each person reproduced randomly with a random other person on earth.

    In reality, people don’t mate that way. The mathematical overview of reproductive reality looks more like figure 1. in the Nature article Steve cited.

    Read More
    • Replies: @anon
    You are correct; My argument is, if 1000 years can lead to such theoretical (i.e. assuming random mixing) interleaving, multiples of thousands of years, even with imperfect mixing due to migrations and simple diffusion, would likely lead one to this type of absurd conclusion that we are all descended from "Lucy" or "Adam" while it really indicates our genes are rather well shuffled over long time.
  76. anon says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @Anonymous
    Dudes don't "pick up" other dudes' Y-chromosome haplogroups.

    allied tribes
    - R1 of some variety enters Scandinavia
    - allies with native I1 group
    - composite group spreads south as germanics

    Read More
  77. @Olorin
    Also virtually everyone is descended from someone not important at all.

    You'd almost think this stuff works out at, say, like, you know, a POPULATION level. Or something.

    But seriously, your math is way off. See "pedigree collapse."

    signed
    Descendant of American Revolutionaries (militia and Continentals)
    Including Continental and First Congressmen

    and

    A whole bunch of guys who just grew food and built stuff and tried not to get obliterated at least till their kids grew up

    That was my point. If we’re all descended from a centuries-ago British king, we’re also all descended from someone who cleaned horse manure during the reign of that same centuries-ago British king.

    Read More
  78. Steve Sailer
    Not that genetic science isn’t one of the most interesting things going, but as far as the political angle:
    Do you think much emphasis on Y-haplogroups is likely to have any beneficial effects, like building some kind of meaningful social cohesion and intra-cultural strengths that can be leveraged to sew a less fractured society?
    When I read you on “citizenism”, for example, or other things like the particular way that you non-autistically call out various groups for anti-socially overplaying their hands – the good faith interpretation of what that telegraphs is that you are seeking a broader social cohesion and not necessarily ours/theirs, secession, or win-lose. Your readers’ ideas notwithstanding – you seem to stand for at least giving a solid shake on trying to keep the U.S.A. one whole.
    So – taking that as your angle, original question: is this kind of material such a good route? Especially given the understandable propensity of people to try to force-fit complex genetic data they don’t really understand into crude social templates that they do?

    [MORE]

    Where I look at European examples of attempting to push back against the breakdown of social cohesion – just my amateur observations, but here are some cases that I do see:
    Use of culture – so building up culture in people, and the cultural bonds that go with those; this may be western culture in general, or ethnic cultures.
    Use of ethnicity, sometimes national, sometimes intra-national – so doubling down on ethnic bonds and ethnic geographic concentrations – important point here being the difference between ethnicity and race and the fact that the former tends to be employed, but not so much the latter.

    An important sample case: Germany is more an example of the many intra-national ethnicities, not of a single strong national identity. To get much more fiercely regional than Germany, someone needs to go to Italy.

    And then another approach is use of religion – often coupled with either of the above.

    It seems to me that there are some organizing principles for social cohesiveness that some people seem prepared to take really far in the US, if they could – and I don’t see a lot of good examples of the success of that model in the European homeland, or anywhere.

    So – sorry – too long a comment – I read your stuff, I read your readers, I dwell on this a lot, and would love to see a way charted to better social cohesiveness. I’m just doubtful that what gets stirred up here when we talk haplogroups shows a lot of promise.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Intelligent Dasein

    I’m just doubtful that what gets stirred up here when we talk haplogroups shows a lot of promise.
     
    I fully agree and I heartily second everything you wrote. You and I could not be more on the same page.

    In addition to your points about social cohesion, I also have philosophical and scientific reasons for drawing away from genetic studies. I rather doubt that such studies are actually telling us what we think they're telling us. The very idea that gene sequences are transmitted from parents to offspring in a reliably unaltered state will, I believe, eventually be shown to be wrong, and then all of this scholarship, and all of the impassioned arguments and inferences stemming therefrom, will have to go by the boards. Genetics is a sideshow; the real substance of the issue is elsewhere.
  79. anon says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @Lurker
    I think map rather than graph. The interwebs should eventually allow the whole map to be put up and we just find our position. Of course thats already happening.
    Read More
  80. anon says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @Almost Missouri

    "after about 33 or so generations, we are all descended from anyone who was alive about 1000 years back"
     
    That would be true, iff each person reproduced randomly with a random other person on earth.

    In reality, people don't mate that way. The mathematical overview of reproductive reality looks more like figure 1. in the Nature article Steve cited.

    You are correct; My argument is, if 1000 years can lead to such theoretical (i.e. assuming random mixing) interleaving, multiples of thousands of years, even with imperfect mixing due to migrations and simple diffusion, would likely lead one to this type of absurd conclusion that we are all descended from “Lucy” or “Adam” while it really indicates our genes are rather well shuffled over long time.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Almost Missouri

    "it really indicates our genes are rather well shuffled over long time."
     
    But isn't what genetic research is showing more or less the opposite of that: that 10s or 100s of thousands of years ago, large families ("races") split off from each other, and they never really recombined except a little, and that mostly only recently?

    In other words, for most of history the "simple diffusion" model is kind of true within races or tribes or clans.

    Or to use your metaphor, some decks may indeed be "well shuffled", but only after those decks were divided off from each other. And that's why it is so useful to know which deck you are playing with (AKA "racism"): it is a good first approximation of what results you can expect from that deck. This is also why the social utopianists have such a hard time stamping out racism: it really is a rather useful social tool and everyone knows it, even the utopianists themselves, as evidenced by their zip code and school choices.

    That said, I agree with SimplePseudonymicHandle and IntelligentDasein that in a republic like the US, where there are already many race-decks and inter-deck shuffling, the payoff for anyone in politics or policy to use the race-deck distinction is pretty low, except at the margin, most specifically at the literal margin: the border, where we are getting cards dealt to us from fairly specific decks that we are not obliged to take. Unfortunately, the utopianist anti-deckists are so hysterically overzealous that they won't allow obvious beneficial choices to be made lest it shatter their fragile and dishonest premises.

    The most promising political future is a sort of moderation of acknowledging obvious race realities while still allowing for individual potential. The Left's hysterical overzealousness will ensure that moderation never occurs, however.

  81. According to Nature Magazine, DNA tests prove that Wilt Chamberlain has fathered 60% of black children worldwide alive today. And death only slowed Wilt from 1.4 liaisons per day down to 0.9 (so said Wilt). And Vladimir Putin personally cast a million votes in the 2016 presidential election, all in swing states. And the women’s march proved all of the above. So there.

    Read More
  82. You sure there aren’t a lot of Europeans descended from Genghis Khan? Sure looks that way.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    The best defensive end on my high school football team had a Russian surname but East Asian looking eyes. He said he assumed he was part Mongolian.
  83. @SimplePseudonymicHandle
    Steve Sailer
    Not that genetic science isn't one of the most interesting things going, but as far as the political angle:
    Do you think much emphasis on Y-haplogroups is likely to have any beneficial effects, like building some kind of meaningful social cohesion and intra-cultural strengths that can be leveraged to sew a less fractured society?
    When I read you on "citizenism", for example, or other things like the particular way that you non-autistically call out various groups for anti-socially overplaying their hands - the good faith interpretation of what that telegraphs is that you are seeking a broader social cohesion and not necessarily ours/theirs, secession, or win-lose. Your readers' ideas notwithstanding - you seem to stand for at least giving a solid shake on trying to keep the U.S.A. one whole.
    So - taking that as your angle, original question: is this kind of material such a good route? Especially given the understandable propensity of people to try to force-fit complex genetic data they don't really understand into crude social templates that they do?

    Where I look at European examples of attempting to push back against the breakdown of social cohesion - just my amateur observations, but here are some cases that I do see:
    Use of culture - so building up culture in people, and the cultural bonds that go with those; this may be western culture in general, or ethnic cultures.
    Use of ethnicity, sometimes national, sometimes intra-national - so doubling down on ethnic bonds and ethnic geographic concentrations - important point here being the difference between ethnicity and race and the fact that the former tends to be employed, but not so much the latter.

    An important sample case: Germany is more an example of the many intra-national ethnicities, not of a single strong national identity. To get much more fiercely regional than Germany, someone needs to go to Italy.

    And then another approach is use of religion - often coupled with either of the above.

    It seems to me that there are some organizing principles for social cohesiveness that some people seem prepared to take really far in the US, if they could - and I don't see a lot of good examples of the success of that model in the European homeland, or anywhere.

    So - sorry - too long a comment - I read your stuff, I read your readers, I dwell on this a lot, and would love to see a way charted to better social cohesiveness. I'm just doubtful that what gets stirred up here when we talk haplogroups shows a lot of promise.

    I’m just doubtful that what gets stirred up here when we talk haplogroups shows a lot of promise.

    I fully agree and I heartily second everything you wrote. You and I could not be more on the same page.

    In addition to your points about social cohesion, I also have philosophical and scientific reasons for drawing away from genetic studies. I rather doubt that such studies are actually telling us what we think they’re telling us. The very idea that gene sequences are transmitted from parents to offspring in a reliably unaltered state will, I believe, eventually be shown to be wrong, and then all of this scholarship, and all of the impassioned arguments and inferences stemming therefrom, will have to go by the boards. Genetics is a sideshow; the real substance of the issue is elsewhere.

    Read More
  84. @anony-mouse
    You sure there aren't a lot of Europeans descended from Genghis Khan? Sure looks that way.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsqlYsdPKSc

    The best defensive end on my high school football team had a Russian surname but East Asian looking eyes. He said he assumed he was part Mongolian.

    Read More
  85. @Hugh

    More than 60 per cent of males in modern-day Europe descend from three Bronze Age leaders.
     
    Doesn't that also mean that 60% of European women descend from the same three people? Or am I missing something?

    I played around with haplogroups for a while but when I look back at my maps they’re a bit confusing. But I came to the conclusion that the world could be divided into about 7-10 male territories, such as R in west asia, O in east Asia, Q in the Americas, E in Africa, N in north Asia. That’s not to say that other haplogroups aren’t around, but just looking at the dominant (pre-colonial) haplogroups in a region. The pattern for women is not the same in each region. In west asia, female R (which is a macrogroup made up of Rh, Rv, Ru) also makes up 50-60% of women (Rh being by far the most prevalent). But in East Asia there is a consistent pattern of MNR haplogroups across the region. In Africa there is L(1,2,3) and M is particularly found in India. I found it fascinating and seems to indicate more pair-binding in west asia and more polygamy in east asia. There are four female haplogroups in the Americas but they seem to settle separately (with male Q) rather than all four occurring together in the same area. There also seems to be a distinct divide between west and east asia. There is a R haplogroup in east asia but it is different from the h,u,v R in west asia. Clear as mud! https://culturalandscape.wordpress.com/2012/06/21/maternal-paternal-bonding/

    https://culturalandscape.wordpress.com/2013/10/09/circles-in-a-spiral-2/

    https://culturalandscape.wordpress.com/2012/03/22/human-migrations-and-cultures/

    I based it all on McDonalds maps from Illinois so you can try figuring it out for yourself:

    http://www.scs.illinois.edu/~mcdonald/worldmtdnamap.pdf

    Read More
    • Replies: @Almost Missouri
    Looking at your maps (especially worldmtdnamap.pdf) and Steve's Nature article (especially Figures 1 and 2), there are some iSteve themes that have not yet been plumbed.



    Looking at Figure 1 and worldmtdnamap, one can see that once humans got out of Africa, most of their genetic history resembled the left side of Figure 1: "long branches with deep-rooting nodes" meaning they had been around a long time without major expansion or contraction. The cheek-by-jowl aesthetic of the left side of Figure 1 veritably reeks of Malthusian limits. The implication is the desirable real estate across sub-Siberian Asia was pretty well settled up and settlement could only expand by absorbing their neighbors, which one assumes was through conquest, though it's not explicit from these data. Looking at worldmtdnamap, one can see that a lot of this absorption (neighbor conquest?) did happen all the way from the Levant to the South China Sea for millennia.

    But then, according to Figure 1, about 30 Y-mutations ago (~5000-6000 years?), Europe suddenly opened up for settlement by the I and R haplogroups, especially the spectacular M269 subgroup. Why and how this happened when it did is unsaid, of course. Maybe no one noticed there was good land north and west of the Caucasus before. Maybe there wasn't good land there before, but a climatic change suddenly made it good at that time. Maybe the I and R haplogroups suddenly got a lacto-tolerance that allowed them to settle these open but colder places. Whatever the reason, Figure 1 shows there was a sudden, unprecedented expansion of humanity into Europe of a few haplotypes (the right side of the chart), until they reached Malthusian limits again.

    The lurid speculation elsewhere on this thread notwithstanding, this expansion into Europe looks like it was accomplished not so much through violent conquest as simply through settlement of relatively open land, a pattern that won't recur on such a large scale until the European settlement of America in the last few centuries.* This is where the hyper-genetically successful "Three Kings" are. They are Mr. R1b-M269 (Father of the Celts?), Mr. I1-M253 (Father of the Finns?) and Mr. R1a-M198 (Father of the Germans?). But their position here at the root of open-land expansion implies that their success resembled the genetic success of vigilant and industrious Amish** patriarchs rather than the success of a violent Genghis Khan warlord. This massive expansion through frontier settlement rather than relentless attrition of the neighbors may have set the cultural stage for the West for the next few millennia.

    Whatever the case, Figure 2 shows that about 2000-4000 years ago something else serious happened, almost as serious as the initial European expansion. Almost all of the European population went though a sudden and severe population bottleneck. Again the cause is unsaid. Climatic change? Pestilence? The inevitable bursting of the free-land bubble of the previous millennia? Whatever it was reduced the Europeans by an order of magnitude just prior to written history beginning.

    Incidentally, looking at Africa on worldmtdnamap, another iSteve theme emerges. Despite being the oldest haplotypes, sub-Saharan Africans appear to have had little cause to bump into each other over the millennia, implying that they have not been up against Malthusian limits in the same way that their Asian cousins were, at least not in a way that resulted in the absorption of their neighbors that is so evident across Asia.

    *Yes, I know there were Indians in America, but their settlement, north of Mexico anyhow, was sparse. That's why I said "relatively". And yes, I know that the Siberians/Indians made a similar open-land settlement of the Americas by pushing eastward from Asia, which was back when or before the Europeans were becoming European and isn't covered by Figure 1.

    **Or maybe Mormon patriarchs. If we knew the male/female reproduction ratios, we could say how Amish versus how Mormon these patriarchs were.
  86. @Anon
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StJS51d1Fzg

    Cremes vs memes

    Those three kings creamed a lot of women and begat many kids who multiplied over and over.

    Oddly enough, all those Europeans came to worship the King of kings, Jesus, who had no kids.
    Jesus conceived of a meme that fertilized the minds.

    For some reason, that video reminded me of Donald Trump’s words in the “Access Hollywood” tape that was in the news last fall – “When you’re a star, they let you do it.”

    Read More
  87. @anon

    He draws me a little diagram to explain how society has changed – productivity and real wages rising in tandem till 1975, then productivity continuing to rise while real wages fell. “It is easily summarised in that Joseph Stiglitz graph.”
     
    Exactly so.

    (and that lost middle class disposable income would have gone into demand instead of being locked up in the 1%'s stored wealth)

    I saw it on Twitter with the approximate comment “From weirdest man in England to wisest man in England”

    Read More
  88. @anon
    You are correct; My argument is, if 1000 years can lead to such theoretical (i.e. assuming random mixing) interleaving, multiples of thousands of years, even with imperfect mixing due to migrations and simple diffusion, would likely lead one to this type of absurd conclusion that we are all descended from "Lucy" or "Adam" while it really indicates our genes are rather well shuffled over long time.

    “it really indicates our genes are rather well shuffled over long time.”

    But isn’t what genetic research is showing more or less the opposite of that: that 10s or 100s of thousands of years ago, large families (“races”) split off from each other, and they never really recombined except a little, and that mostly only recently?

    In other words, for most of history the “simple diffusion” model is kind of true within races or tribes or clans.

    Or to use your metaphor, some decks may indeed be “well shuffled”, but only after those decks were divided off from each other. And that’s why it is so useful to know which deck you are playing with (AKA “racism”): it is a good first approximation of what results you can expect from that deck. This is also why the social utopianists have such a hard time stamping out racism: it really is a rather useful social tool and everyone knows it, even the utopianists themselves, as evidenced by their zip code and school choices.

    That said, I agree with SimplePseudonymicHandle and IntelligentDasein that in a republic like the US, where there are already many race-decks and inter-deck shuffling, the payoff for anyone in politics or policy to use the race-deck distinction is pretty low, except at the margin, most specifically at the literal margin: the border, where we are getting cards dealt to us from fairly specific decks that we are not obliged to take. Unfortunately, the utopianist anti-deckists are so hysterically overzealous that they won’t allow obvious beneficial choices to be made lest it shatter their fragile and dishonest premises.

    The most promising political future is a sort of moderation of acknowledging obvious race realities while still allowing for individual potential. The Left’s hysterical overzealousness will ensure that moderation never occurs, however.

    Read More
  89. @dearieme
    This reminds me of the conjecture that Odin/Wotan is a vague memory of some factual war leader of the distant past. Mind you I still reject the conjecture since it seems to be evidence-free.

    In the Old Testament things seem to be the other way round, with Abraham, David, and others being fabricated from old Canaanite gods.

    A number of Anglo-Saxon royal houses claimed to be descendant from Wotan, but also provide a pedigree of Wotan.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Saxon_royal_genealogies#Ancestry_of_Woden

    Read More
  90. @gcochran
    In the article, they fully sequenced a segment of the Y chromosome, which gives far more (and easier to understand) information than previous work using microsatellite variation.

    They have the best info.

    Read the report. He actually did the study in 2014 and had less advanced testing than FTDNA has used since 2015. He only tested 1,453 single-nucleotide polymorphisms while the Big Y testing used at FTDNA tests 36,000 single-nucleotide polymorphisms. “The AMY-tree v1.2 conversion file contains a list of 1,453 known Y-SNPs, of which 490 are present in our data. These 490 sites were used to assign a standard haplogroup”- Thus the author admits to finding just 490 of the 1,453 tested SNPs among their sample of 340 males. While at FTDNA they have 14,000 RiB samples and 5,000 have done advanced SNP testing more advanced than done for this study.

    Since the more advanced testing of the Y started 2 years ago they have discovered hundreds more clades under R1b. Most of them have a TMRCA grater than 5,000 years. Thus we know the R1B men living 6,000 years ago fell into dozens of different clades, thus they did not have the same father or event or even the same GGGGGGrandfather.

    L21 is just one of the dozen major subclades under R1B, and there were dozens of R1B subclades in Europe 7,500 years ago which have survived to modern times.

    Read More
  91. @helena
    I played around with haplogroups for a while but when I look back at my maps they're a bit confusing. But I came to the conclusion that the world could be divided into about 7-10 male territories, such as R in west asia, O in east Asia, Q in the Americas, E in Africa, N in north Asia. That's not to say that other haplogroups aren't around, but just looking at the dominant (pre-colonial) haplogroups in a region. The pattern for women is not the same in each region. In west asia, female R (which is a macrogroup made up of Rh, Rv, Ru) also makes up 50-60% of women (Rh being by far the most prevalent). But in East Asia there is a consistent pattern of MNR haplogroups across the region. In Africa there is L(1,2,3) and M is particularly found in India. I found it fascinating and seems to indicate more pair-binding in west asia and more polygamy in east asia. There are four female haplogroups in the Americas but they seem to settle separately (with male Q) rather than all four occurring together in the same area. There also seems to be a distinct divide between west and east asia. There is a R haplogroup in east asia but it is different from the h,u,v R in west asia. Clear as mud! https://culturalandscape.wordpress.com/2012/06/21/maternal-paternal-bonding/
    https://culturalandscape.wordpress.com/2013/10/09/circles-in-a-spiral-2/
    https://culturalandscape.wordpress.com/2012/03/22/human-migrations-and-cultures/

    I based it all on McDonalds maps from Illinois so you can try figuring it out for yourself:
    http://www.scs.illinois.edu/~mcdonald/worldmtdnamap.pdf

    Looking at your maps (especially worldmtdnamap.pdf) and Steve’s Nature article (especially Figures 1 and 2), there are some iSteve themes that have not yet been plumbed.

    [MORE]

    Looking at Figure 1 and worldmtdnamap, one can see that once humans got out of Africa, most of their genetic history resembled the left side of Figure 1: “long branches with deep-rooting nodes” meaning they had been around a long time without major expansion or contraction. The cheek-by-jowl aesthetic of the left side of Figure 1 veritably reeks of Malthusian limits. The implication is the desirable real estate across sub-Siberian Asia was pretty well settled up and settlement could only expand by absorbing their neighbors, which one assumes was through conquest, though it’s not explicit from these data. Looking at worldmtdnamap, one can see that a lot of this absorption (neighbor conquest?) did happen all the way from the Levant to the South China Sea for millennia.

    But then, according to Figure 1, about 30 Y-mutations ago (~5000-6000 years?), Europe suddenly opened up for settlement by the I and R haplogroups, especially the spectacular M269 subgroup. Why and how this happened when it did is unsaid, of course. Maybe no one noticed there was good land north and west of the Caucasus before. Maybe there wasn’t good land there before, but a climatic change suddenly made it good at that time. Maybe the I and R haplogroups suddenly got a lacto-tolerance that allowed them to settle these open but colder places. Whatever the reason, Figure 1 shows there was a sudden, unprecedented expansion of humanity into Europe of a few haplotypes (the right side of the chart), until they reached Malthusian limits again.

    The lurid speculation elsewhere on this thread notwithstanding, this expansion into Europe looks like it was accomplished not so much through violent conquest as simply through settlement of relatively open land, a pattern that won’t recur on such a large scale until the European settlement of America in the last few centuries.* This is where the hyper-genetically successful “Three Kings” are. They are Mr. R1b-M269 (Father of the Celts?), Mr. I1-M253 (Father of the Finns?) and Mr. R1a-M198 (Father of the Germans?). But their position here at the root of open-land expansion implies that their success resembled the genetic success of vigilant and industrious Amish** patriarchs rather than the success of a violent Genghis Khan warlord. This massive expansion through frontier settlement rather than relentless attrition of the neighbors may have set the cultural stage for the West for the next few millennia.

    Whatever the case, Figure 2 shows that about 2000-4000 years ago something else serious happened, almost as serious as the initial European expansion. Almost all of the European population went though a sudden and severe population bottleneck. Again the cause is unsaid. Climatic change? Pestilence? The inevitable bursting of the free-land bubble of the previous millennia? Whatever it was reduced the Europeans by an order of magnitude just prior to written history beginning.

    Incidentally, looking at Africa on worldmtdnamap, another iSteve theme emerges. Despite being the oldest haplotypes, sub-Saharan Africans appear to have had little cause to bump into each other over the millennia, implying that they have not been up against Malthusian limits in the same way that their Asian cousins were, at least not in a way that resulted in the absorption of their neighbors that is so evident across Asia.

    *Yes, I know there were Indians in America, but their settlement, north of Mexico anyhow, was sparse. That’s why I said “relatively”. And yes, I know that the Siberians/Indians made a similar open-land settlement of the Americas by pushing eastward from Asia, which was back when or before the Europeans were becoming European and isn’t covered by Figure 1.

    **Or maybe Mormon patriarchs. If we knew the male/female reproduction ratios, we could say how Amish versus how Mormon these patriarchs were.

    Read More
    • Replies: @helena
    What you say is interesting. I don't have the answers but a couple of random suggestions are :

    -tree-cover or tree-line. someone called greying wandering was very keen on the idea of R people slashing and burning their way across the continent

    -social structure. this possibly ties in with Peter Frost's hypothesis regarding the diversity of hair and eye colour being the result of sexual selection. I've just watched a programme about the Plymouth Colony and the overwhelming message was that what saved the colony through seemingly unsurmountable challenges, was their social structure. And maybe this fits with the apparent early establishment of pair-bonds in Europe compared to elsewhere (although I think some research puts monogamy in Europe right back to 9000ya).

    -technology / metallurgy

    As regards timing;
    - expansion 5-6,000ya (=3-4,000 BCE)
    - bottleneck 2-4,000ya (=2,000BCE to 0CE)

    I think these periods are exceptionally interesting because they are so sensitive to whether BCE or 'years ago' are used and I sometimes wonder if causal patterns such as you are looking to discover are impeded by this.

    The expansion fits with the stone circle era. Neil Oliver has recently made a documentary to explain that stone circles originate in Orkney, earlier than previously thought and, contrary to previously understood, spread South from Orkney, all the way to France.

    The bottleneck fits with the bronze age; an age which seems to have been less technological than ceremonial (i.e. bronze didn't provide the expansion of functions that iron did).

    Lacto-persistence may have been connected with the stone-circle expansion? Certainly the Orcadians were herders and cattle bones in the site appear to be connected with reverence as well as consumption with cattle bones found buried in graves. "Around 2,300BC, roughly a thousand years after construction began there, the place was abruptly abandoned. Radiocarbon dating of animal bones suggests that a huge feast ceremony was held, with more than 600 cattle slaughtered, after which the site appears to have been decommissioned. " https://www.theguardian.com/science/2012/oct/06/orkney-temple-centre-ancient-britain
  92. @gcochran
    Only the Y-chromosome, which is small and has few genes.

    You don't know what you're talking about.

    I realized the error too late to edit my post, and thought to myself “gcochran is on this thread, he’s going to roast me…”

    While no woman can have her MtDNA persist in a detectable way over a large fraction of the population, as happens with mens’ YDNA, the mothers of the men who have a big genetic contribution have half as big a contribution themselves, for the autosomal part. And it is more than just the Y chromosome that those men have a very disproportionate share in.

    Start with the simplifying assumption (which will be adjusted below) that the conquering group which shared the Y chromosome was a bunch of brothers, and that they killed off most of the men and were responsible for fathering much of the next generation. Then their share of the autosomal DNA is half as large as their share of the Y chromosomes, and their mother’s share is half that.

    Modifying the simplifying assumption that this advantage only lasted one generation, and making the new assumption that all the advantage is from direct male descendants, while daughters and their sons have no advantage, each additional generation that it lasts for will increase the Y prevalence of the conquerors’ DNA by twice as large a factor as it increases the autosomal prevalence. But it seems that most of the effect would happen in the first couple of generations, so that a huge Y prevalence would still entail a significant autosomal share.

    If a large advantage in male reproductive access for this Y group lasted for centuries rather than decades, then my argument is wrong because the autosomal share would fall way behind the Y share. Maybe we know that this was the case, but I’m not familiar with the research demonstrating it.

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  93. @Hugh

    More than 60 per cent of males in modern-day Europe descend from three Bronze Age leaders.
     
    Doesn't that also mean that 60% of European women descend from the same three people? Or am I missing something?

    Yes, you and dozens of other commentators are missing the phrase “paternal lineages” from the cited paper.

    The Daily Mail garbles this into “paternal families”, which is unhelpful. The men in question were not necessarily what we now think of as good family men.

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  94. @Travis
    since men were polygamous during the Bronze age, the leading men of the time would have impregnated dozens of females. So there would be more women who had offspring than males , just like today. More males die childless than women, which has been true since the beginning of man.

    Then doesn’t address his question.

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  95. There ARE known examples of specific men, or closely-related families of men, who spread their genes quite widely. Genghis Khan, the Temujin, is one example.

    But it’s also the case that, like familial names, Y-chromosomes tend to disappear over time. Say most men father two surviving children. There’s roughly a one-in-four chance that both of those children will be female. Since in the European tradition women take on their husbands’ family name, their own family name won’t be passed down. Same with their fathers’ Y-chromosomes – no male children means no copies of that chromosome are passed down.

    It’s exactly the same as ‘Mitochondrial Eve’ – all humans can trace their mitochondrial DNA back to a small group of related people because lineages of mitochondria tend to be lost over time.

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  96. @Lot
    French kings generally were not very fertile. Nor were English kings (with a few exceptions) or Roman Emperors.

    In English history the King's BFF seems to usually have a lot more surviving children.

    A large portion of the direct male line of illegitimate sons of kings should have the surname Fitzroy, but it is actually a fairly rare name.

    http://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryUK/HistoryofEngland/Nell-Gwyn-Gwynne/ Charles remarked “Oddsfish I am ugly’.

    Over the generations of “Kings” choosing which women enjoyed reproductive success, the offspring would look more and more like the women being chosen, which was a select group from every generation. So the appearance of the whole population would change. The DNA would also change and we know fully white skin spread like wildfire at this time

    Polymath says below

    Modifying the simplifying assumption that this advantage only lasted one generation, and making the new assumption that all the advantage is from direct male descendants, while daughters and their sons have no advantage, each additional generation that it lasts for will increase the Y prevalence of the conquerors’ DNA by twice as large a factor as it increases the autosomal prevalence.

    No mix or increasing prevalence of the Kings/women’s DNA over generations can explain fully white skin appearing in the Bronze age.

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  97. @Halvorson
    I used to think it was implausible that most men with the same Scottish last name could be descended from the same heroic ancestor, that the clansmen were just making stuff up. But the genetic findings show that if last names had existed in Europe 6,000 years ago, today 95 percent of Irishmen would be called something like "R1b-son".

    In a lot of places you'll see mismatches between Y-chromosome and autosomal ancestry. 60 percent of Finns carry Y haplogroup N, which is clearly East Asian, but they're only about 7-10 percent Siberian overall. In Indo-European Europe you see similar stuff: Europeans are 20-40 percent Indo-European genetically, much more so on the Y. There's a YouTube lecture by a Danish archaeologist named Kristian Kristianson on the Corded Ware Culture where he says:


    New migrants come in, and most of these new migrants, we now know, were young males, or males. Much like today. They are willing to take risks and they are the ones who cannot inherit the herd. There is always a surplus of young males in pastoral groups. They have to find a career. In Denmark, in Jutland, in 90 percent of all burials of the early phase in the barrows, are males. So this is a very strong male dominated migration, in the initial phase. And in the initial phase there's virtually no material culture...they come with a mobile culture that leaves no traces. Rarely any pottery. Pottery will only come after some generations when they start marrying women.
     
    I'm forced to imagine Neolithic frat houses appearing all over North Europe, full of horny, low status males who couldn't cut it in the original steppe motherland. They weren't able to immediately destroy the Mediterranean farmers who had gotten there first, but after a few decades of co-existence killed off their men folk almost entirely and ran off with the women.

    Maybe letting them come in the first place was a mistake?

    95 percent of Irishmen would be called something like “R1b-son”.

    or o’R-L21, more like MacDF13. Those three Rathlin Island ?relatives were Food Vessel (local LN/EBA, first half of the 2nd millennium BC, sort of local Beaker with maybe preceding neolithic admixture really, as far as the pots go) and most likely DF21 (a very common Irish/Scottish group, includes MacDonald, MacAuley, Murphy, O’Carroll and so on, although the main line of Mac Donald appears to be R1a1). Rathlin was the last redoubt of Clan Donald in the North where Elizabeth I’s forces found and massacred the families of clansmen engaged elsewhere against her.

    https://tudorstuartperspectives.wordpress.com/2015/12/05/somhairle-buidhe-mac-domhnaill-and-the-rathlin-island-massacre/

    https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-df21/about/background

    http://www.pnas.org/content/113/2/368.full.pdf

    http://www.unz.com/gnxp/the-gaels-were-from-scythia/

    http://eurogenes.blogspot.co.uk/2015/12/ancient-genomes-from-ireland-point-to.html

    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6111-Neolithic-and-Bronze-Age-migration-to-Ireland-and-establishment-of-the-insular-Atlant

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  98. @Almost Missouri
    Looking at your maps (especially worldmtdnamap.pdf) and Steve's Nature article (especially Figures 1 and 2), there are some iSteve themes that have not yet been plumbed.



    Looking at Figure 1 and worldmtdnamap, one can see that once humans got out of Africa, most of their genetic history resembled the left side of Figure 1: "long branches with deep-rooting nodes" meaning they had been around a long time without major expansion or contraction. The cheek-by-jowl aesthetic of the left side of Figure 1 veritably reeks of Malthusian limits. The implication is the desirable real estate across sub-Siberian Asia was pretty well settled up and settlement could only expand by absorbing their neighbors, which one assumes was through conquest, though it's not explicit from these data. Looking at worldmtdnamap, one can see that a lot of this absorption (neighbor conquest?) did happen all the way from the Levant to the South China Sea for millennia.

    But then, according to Figure 1, about 30 Y-mutations ago (~5000-6000 years?), Europe suddenly opened up for settlement by the I and R haplogroups, especially the spectacular M269 subgroup. Why and how this happened when it did is unsaid, of course. Maybe no one noticed there was good land north and west of the Caucasus before. Maybe there wasn't good land there before, but a climatic change suddenly made it good at that time. Maybe the I and R haplogroups suddenly got a lacto-tolerance that allowed them to settle these open but colder places. Whatever the reason, Figure 1 shows there was a sudden, unprecedented expansion of humanity into Europe of a few haplotypes (the right side of the chart), until they reached Malthusian limits again.

    The lurid speculation elsewhere on this thread notwithstanding, this expansion into Europe looks like it was accomplished not so much through violent conquest as simply through settlement of relatively open land, a pattern that won't recur on such a large scale until the European settlement of America in the last few centuries.* This is where the hyper-genetically successful "Three Kings" are. They are Mr. R1b-M269 (Father of the Celts?), Mr. I1-M253 (Father of the Finns?) and Mr. R1a-M198 (Father of the Germans?). But their position here at the root of open-land expansion implies that their success resembled the genetic success of vigilant and industrious Amish** patriarchs rather than the success of a violent Genghis Khan warlord. This massive expansion through frontier settlement rather than relentless attrition of the neighbors may have set the cultural stage for the West for the next few millennia.

    Whatever the case, Figure 2 shows that about 2000-4000 years ago something else serious happened, almost as serious as the initial European expansion. Almost all of the European population went though a sudden and severe population bottleneck. Again the cause is unsaid. Climatic change? Pestilence? The inevitable bursting of the free-land bubble of the previous millennia? Whatever it was reduced the Europeans by an order of magnitude just prior to written history beginning.

    Incidentally, looking at Africa on worldmtdnamap, another iSteve theme emerges. Despite being the oldest haplotypes, sub-Saharan Africans appear to have had little cause to bump into each other over the millennia, implying that they have not been up against Malthusian limits in the same way that their Asian cousins were, at least not in a way that resulted in the absorption of their neighbors that is so evident across Asia.

    *Yes, I know there were Indians in America, but their settlement, north of Mexico anyhow, was sparse. That's why I said "relatively". And yes, I know that the Siberians/Indians made a similar open-land settlement of the Americas by pushing eastward from Asia, which was back when or before the Europeans were becoming European and isn't covered by Figure 1.

    **Or maybe Mormon patriarchs. If we knew the male/female reproduction ratios, we could say how Amish versus how Mormon these patriarchs were.

    What you say is interesting. I don’t have the answers but a couple of random suggestions are :

    -tree-cover or tree-line. someone called greying wandering was very keen on the idea of R people slashing and burning their way across the continent

    -social structure. this possibly ties in with Peter Frost’s hypothesis regarding the diversity of hair and eye colour being the result of sexual selection. I’ve just watched a programme about the Plymouth Colony and the overwhelming message was that what saved the colony through seemingly unsurmountable challenges, was their social structure. And maybe this fits with the apparent early establishment of pair-bonds in Europe compared to elsewhere (although I think some research puts monogamy in Europe right back to 9000ya).

    -technology / metallurgy

    As regards timing;
    - expansion 5-6,000ya (=3-4,000 BCE)
    - bottleneck 2-4,000ya (=2,000BCE to 0CE)

    I think these periods are exceptionally interesting because they are so sensitive to whether BCE or ‘years ago’ are used and I sometimes wonder if causal patterns such as you are looking to discover are impeded by this.

    The expansion fits with the stone circle era. Neil Oliver has recently made a documentary to explain that stone circles originate in Orkney, earlier than previously thought and, contrary to previously understood, spread South from Orkney, all the way to France.

    The bottleneck fits with the bronze age; an age which seems to have been less technological than ceremonial (i.e. bronze didn’t provide the expansion of functions that iron did).

    Lacto-persistence may have been connected with the stone-circle expansion? Certainly the Orcadians were herders and cattle bones in the site appear to be connected with reverence as well as consumption with cattle bones found buried in graves. “Around 2,300BC, roughly a thousand years after construction began there, the place was abruptly abandoned. Radiocarbon dating of animal bones suggests that a huge feast ceremony was held, with more than 600 cattle slaughtered, after which the site appears to have been decommissioned. ” https://www.theguardian.com/science/2012/oct/06/orkney-temple-centre-ancient-britain

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    • Replies: @Almost Missouri
    Radiocarbon dating can tell them that a lot of cattle died about the same time, but "about the same time" does not necessarily mean at a single ceremony. I think a more plausible theory is that after the bottleneck depopulation of humans, those remaining were suddenly cattle-rich, akin to how how the post-Black Plague Europeans had a sudden jump in living standard, and they feasted for a generation or two, before it became apparent that the human population was now too thin to support the elaborate site as it had in the past.

    Another thought that occurred to me is that since this population bottleneck occurred just before the commencement of written history, this would partially explain how it was that the Romans expanding northward kept running into successive waves of northern barbarians expanding southward: the northern Europeans were on the upswing after their bottleneck losses, and the reproductive momentum of their upswing was pushing right into the face of the Roman empire, until finally it pushed that empire over.
  99. @Inquiring Mind
    The y-DNA result simply confirms my "Rodriguez Theory."

    The y-chromosome inherited only by the male is like the patriarchal last name -- only sons pass on the last name to their children (not totally -- hyphenated names, weird guys like that di Blasio dude in NY, but bear with me on this). Fathers who only have daughters do not pass on their family name to the next generation.

    This means that with each generation you have winnowing of last names. If this continues long enough, society will be down to one last name, and the statistical likelihood is that this name will be "Rodriguez."

    Exactly. In fact (depending on your assumptions regarding TFR and generation time) only 0.5% of Y-chromosomes extant 5000 years ago survive to the present.

    But that said, it is still hard to get to the top 3 accounting for 60% unless the male population of Europe was very small 5000 years ago, numbering only a few thousand, OR the distribution of offspring was wildly non-gaussian.

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  100. Mmm . . . I played with my model some more and am no longer confident in that 0.5% number. Given the increase in the European population, the number is closer to 11%.

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  101. It’s not only about who whomed up whom in the past – there’s always gonna be some new Khan ( or zee looking Sulu and Xi ) eying up Commander’s Chair of the Enterprise.

    Notice how Reuters scribe salivates over Ein Belt, Ein Road proposals coming from a retired Chinese Major-General :

    ‘”You have your ‘America first’, we have our ‘community of common destiny for mankind’,” Retired Major-General Luo Yuan, a widely read Chinese military figure best known for his normally hawkish tone, wrote on his blog this week.

    “You have a ‘closed country’, we have ‘one belt, one road’,” he added, referring to China’s multi-billion dollar new Silk Road trade and investment program.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-china-analysis-idUSKBN1590KJ

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  102. @helena
    What you say is interesting. I don't have the answers but a couple of random suggestions are :

    -tree-cover or tree-line. someone called greying wandering was very keen on the idea of R people slashing and burning their way across the continent

    -social structure. this possibly ties in with Peter Frost's hypothesis regarding the diversity of hair and eye colour being the result of sexual selection. I've just watched a programme about the Plymouth Colony and the overwhelming message was that what saved the colony through seemingly unsurmountable challenges, was their social structure. And maybe this fits with the apparent early establishment of pair-bonds in Europe compared to elsewhere (although I think some research puts monogamy in Europe right back to 9000ya).

    -technology / metallurgy

    As regards timing;
    - expansion 5-6,000ya (=3-4,000 BCE)
    - bottleneck 2-4,000ya (=2,000BCE to 0CE)

    I think these periods are exceptionally interesting because they are so sensitive to whether BCE or 'years ago' are used and I sometimes wonder if causal patterns such as you are looking to discover are impeded by this.

    The expansion fits with the stone circle era. Neil Oliver has recently made a documentary to explain that stone circles originate in Orkney, earlier than previously thought and, contrary to previously understood, spread South from Orkney, all the way to France.

    The bottleneck fits with the bronze age; an age which seems to have been less technological than ceremonial (i.e. bronze didn't provide the expansion of functions that iron did).

    Lacto-persistence may have been connected with the stone-circle expansion? Certainly the Orcadians were herders and cattle bones in the site appear to be connected with reverence as well as consumption with cattle bones found buried in graves. "Around 2,300BC, roughly a thousand years after construction began there, the place was abruptly abandoned. Radiocarbon dating of animal bones suggests that a huge feast ceremony was held, with more than 600 cattle slaughtered, after which the site appears to have been decommissioned. " https://www.theguardian.com/science/2012/oct/06/orkney-temple-centre-ancient-britain

    Radiocarbon dating can tell them that a lot of cattle died about the same time, but “about the same time” does not necessarily mean at a single ceremony. I think a more plausible theory is that after the bottleneck depopulation of humans, those remaining were suddenly cattle-rich, akin to how how the post-Black Plague Europeans had a sudden jump in living standard, and they feasted for a generation or two, before it became apparent that the human population was now too thin to support the elaborate site as it had in the past.

    Another thought that occurred to me is that since this population bottleneck occurred just before the commencement of written history, this would partially explain how it was that the Romans expanding northward kept running into successive waves of northern barbarians expanding southward: the northern Europeans were on the upswing after their bottleneck losses, and the reproductive momentum of their upswing was pushing right into the face of the Roman empire, until finally it pushed that empire over.

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  103. @gcochran
    You're wrong.

    Well yes a slapdash comment, but there is a parallel between the Bronze age movement of genes from Norway to Scotland, and the later conquest that Somerled was part of.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandinavian_Scotland#Colonisation_process

    The second of these theories is the genocide hypothesis, which asserts that the aboriginal populations of the Northern and Western Isles were eradicated and replaced wholesale with settlers of Scandinavian stock. The strength of this argument is the almost total replacement of pre-existing place names by those of Norse origin throughout much of the region.[22] Its weakness is that the place name evidence is from a relatively late date and the nature of this transition remains controversial.[25] Genetic studies show that Shetlanders have almost identical proportions of Scandinavian matrilineal and patrilineal ancestry, suggesting that the islands were settled by both men and women in equal measure

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  104. @gcochran
    You're wrong.

    By the way, do you still think genes producing white skin were for “something else” apart from white skin (in women) or have you quietly retracted your confident scoffing at the idea?

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Comments are closed.

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