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For years I’ve been having fun with the media’s Crops Rotting in the Fields trope, where growers’ PR firms fill in whatever crop is in over-abundance this year — pears, brussel sprouts, kumquats, whatever — and announce that due to the Illegal Immigrant Shortage Crisis, the Crops Are Rotting in the Fields. This seems to trigger an atavistic Oh No, We’re All Gonna Starve! emotion in reporters.

Yet here is a classic version of that article, but not even concerning food. Instead, the crisis is that rich people in Vail aren’t getting their landscape water features updated as soon or as cheaply as they’d like.

From the Colorado Springs Gazette:

A visa shortage means worker woes in Colorado’s mountains
By: By DAVID O. WILLIAMS Special to The Gazette Jun 21, 2019

VAIL • For nearly 20 years, Glen Ellison, a landscape contractor in Eagle, sponsored 35 workers, many from one city in Mexico, to create some of the most spectacular lawns surrounding the high-end homes of the Vail Valley.

Ellison started in 1981 with a wheelbarrow, pick, rake, shovel and a Toyota pickup truck. Over the years, he visited many of his workers in their homes in Aguascalientes, a city in central Mexico, meeting children, spouses and parents.

He relied on the federal H-2B visa program for temporary, nonagricultural labor to bring many of his landscapers to the United States. About 70% of H-2B workers are from Mexico.

Ellison said he had come to see his hardworking men more as family than employees. And he called them vital contributors to the local economy.

His businesses — Ceres Landcare and Ceres+ Landscape Architecture — survived the worst of the Great Recession, ready to ride the economic recovery wave.

Then, in spring 2018, as the snow was melting and trophy- home owners from Beaver Creek to Cordillera were calling for elaborate gardens, terraced patios and intricate water features, Ellison learned that none of his H-2B visa workers would be allowed to return. He had not demonstrated a great enough need.

And this year, a new lottery system again torpedoed his longstanding H-2B workforce.

Employers such as Ellison are caught in the squeeze between a growing shortage of seasonal labor and the incendiary national debate over immigration.

In years past, many workers who previously had been admitted to the U.S. under the H-2B program were excluded from the annual quota of 66,000 visas. But Congress ended that policy in 2017 amid a debate over whether immigrant labor was undermining American workers.

And faced with rising demand for the temporary visas, a lottery system for H-2B documents was imposed, upending a system that many businesses relied on to fill jobs at restaurants, hotels and landscaping companies.

A resilient businessman, Ellison didn’t despair. He told his workers he would do everything he could to restore their visas so they could come back to Colorado.

But after visiting Washington, D.C., to meet with Colorado’s congressional delegation and seasonal employment advocacy organizations this year, Ellison said, he might never see some of his workers again in the Vail Valley.

He’s in desperation mode now, trying recruiting tactics like setting up a table with brochures and a banner in a Tucson suburb, looking for green card holders who might want to switch jobs.

He met with little success. Workers are scarce there, too.

And forget about finding naturalized American citizens to do the backbreaking outdoor work required in landscaping, Ellison said. Maybe that was true in the 1980s, when he first moved to the Vail Valley. But now, few ski bums and college-aged young people are willing to toil in all conditions under the Colorado sun, he said.

“For the most part, we, as Americans, have grown soft. We don’t like to go out there and work like that,” he said. “The idea behind work today is using enhancers and get to the fitness center. But the idea of putting callouses on your fingers and doing a hard day’s worth of work, not just today but tomorrow and next week and next month, man, that’s something from the past.

“But the people down in Mexico, they’d love it, and it works for them.”

 
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  1. Trying to find a phrasing for what should happen to this fresh, hot piece of humanity that won’t get moderated …

  2. Well, somewhat related, it doesn’t look like corn will be rotting in the fields this year because it’s not getting planted.

    https://www.postbulletin.com/agrinews/news/columns/looks-like-it-s-one-of-those-years/article_e03514cc-929a-11e9-86cf-4bd118ca53a6.html

    In my neck of the nape, most of the corn fields I see everyday have not been planted yet because the ground is still too wet from all the rain.

  3. “For the most part, we, as Americans, have grown [cheap]. We don’t like to go out there and [pay] like that,” he said.

    • Replies: @Forbes
    Ellison's business has been subsidized for "nearly 20 years" using imported, temporary (seasonal H-2B visa) labor paid at wages below what the market would demand.

    I can only imagine the horrid housing arrangements for these imported seasonal workers--in contrast to the million dollar vacation home market on which Ellison's subsidy-based business was built. It can be quite startling to come across slum-like housing conditions nearby mountain resort communities.

    Had he paid market wages, he could've created his own supply network of American workers, as winter resort seasonal workers need off-season summer work.
    , @midtown
    Welfare is too generous. That is the population that would do work like that -- if they had to feed themselves.
    , @Dieter Kief

    we, as Americans, have grown [cheap]. We don’t like to go out there and [pay] like that,

     

    That's what's called rationalization, isn't it? And When in doubt - ask Ayn Rand! would be the other appropriate slogan here, right?
  4. Beyond the silly squawking of this greedy parasite, and the obvious point that Richy Rich can pay the market rate for American stoop labor if he wants his fancy water feature…

    “For the most part, we, as Americans, have grown soft. We don’t like to go out there and work like that,”

    I will say that all these stories bring home the point that relying on foreign cheap labor does erode the national character in a way reminiscent of welfare.

    A nation, like a person, degrades in character when they shirk work.

    • Agree: Buzz Mohawk
    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
    I agree. Perhaps employers want foreign labor because Americans have gone soft. Or perhaps Americans have gone soft because a lot of these jobs are now closed to them.
    , @Old Prude
    Anyone who doesn't mow their own lawn, or have the kids do it is an a-hole. Those who get their wife to do it are the real patriots.
    , @YetAnotherAnon
    Maybe they don't want to do it for minimum wage? How much did they get in the 1980s, when apparently Americans would do such work, and how did that compare against the then cost of living in Colorado?
    , @Desiderius
    It's not the character of the shirkers (sic) that is the problem, it's that of Ellison and his masters.
  5. Mexicans love to do backbreaking work in the Colorado sun all day for little to no pay. They love it! Can’t get enough of it the little brown buggers.

    • Replies: @Mr McKenna
    Exactly. And after several years in the USA, they're just like the natives, only dumber, poorer, and angrier. Oddly enough, they also get used to freebies, which our candidates are now explicitly promising to every single person in the world who manages to set foot on our side of the Rio Grande (or JFK tarmac).

    Glen Ellison, a landscape contractor in Eagle, sponsored 35 workers, many from one city in Mexico
     
    35 workers, that must mean about 200 more Mexicans now (not mentioned in the article) many of which are anchor babies of one kind or another, and many of which (being from the same village) are probably marrying cousins or half-siblings, meaning that their collective IQ is under yet another kind of assault.

    No matter, when these go stale we'll just import the next 'tranche' of desperadoes.

  6. “Now his life is full of wonder/But his heart still knows some fear/Of a simple thing he cannot comprehend /Why they try to tear the mountains down/And bring in a couple more/More people, more scars upon the land.” – John Denver, racist white nationalist xenophobic bigot (apparently)

    The rich are too rich, poor people can’t get jobs with health benefits, and the Colorado River is dying…but we need to bring in tens of millions of more immigrants to suck up its resources and of course because some of them are needed to tend the immense, over-watered lawns of the 2nd/3rd/8th homes of rich people who would be seriously inconvenienced if they had to pay their workers a living wage.

    You just can’t make this shit up.

  7. >toil in all conditions under the Colorado sun

    Low-humidity Vail, CO gets above 80 degrees once in the next week. It’s real rough working up there in the mountains.

    • Replies: @Logan
    Quite right. This ain't the Central Valley of CA. Vail in the summer is really, really nice.
    , @Forbes
    Vail in the summer is quite nice. Labor-intensive work is a little different though at 8,200 feet (at the bottom of the valley).

    An ex-girlfriend's father built a house mansion in Edwards (Beaver Creek), on the Cordillera Summit at 10,000+ feet. Hotter than the valley during the day, cooler at night. O2 at those altitudes gets a little thin.
    , @ricpic
    I wonder how many of those Mexicans come down with skin cancer? Exposure to that intense mountain sun day after day.
  8. Lot says:

    Hire Americans? What if the guy unclogging Mitt Romney’s dolphin fountain is one of the ones he looted the pension and closed the factory on? Awkward! Bet you didn’t think of that, did you Sailer. Also, you wouldn’t believe what wimps rednecks are about sun exposure. And it isn’t like there’s some magic lotion you can apply to your skin that blocks the sun. By contrast, Mexicans are known for their especially vigorous labor between noon and 3 when the sun is hottest. They call it “siesta,” which is Spanish for “serf.”

    • LOL: Federalist
    • Replies: @Hypnotoad666
    One thing i find odd about Mexican workers, is that they never wear shorts when working outside. They'll be roofing some house in 110 degree weather, wearing jeans and a flannel shirt.

    I guess it's a cultural thing, or maybe they have better heat tolerance.
  9. He’s in desperation mode now, trying recruiting tactics like setting up a table with brochures and a banner in a Tucson suburb, looking for green card holders who might want to switch jobs.

    I guess no one told this guy that he can just go down to Home Depot with a pickup and get all the day laborers he needs.

    If he’s really too law abiding and conscientious to do this, then I would feel slightly bad for him and his workers. I mean, given that the border is wide open to illegals it seems pointless to make it difficult for the one man in America who is trying to hire legally.

    But my guess is that the reporter just ignored the fact that he will now just hire illegals because that wouldn’t serve the Narrative.

    • Replies: @fish

    I guess no one told this guy that he can just go down to Home Depot with a pickup and get all the day laborers he needs.
     
    As a business owner he be crucified if the Colorado Dept of Labor caught wind of this.
  10. I recall the stat from Pew Center that said it 3% of illegal immigrants work in agriculture….

    Meaning you could in theory deport roughly 96% of them and it would have small to zero effect on the agricultural workforce…..

  11. Entirely off-topic, but I’m reading Gary Shteyngart’s novel Lake Success and find it perhaps the iSteve-iest thing I’ve ever encountered by someone other than Tom Wolfe. Like Shteyngart’s other work, it’s also very well written, and both brutal and often really funny.

    The hedge-fund-running Jewish protagonist and his southern-Indian-extracted wife are extremely well-drawn, including her uncomfortable memories of her immigrant mother’s having “drawn Seema a chart of the social acceptability of her friends” back in Seema’s high-school days in Ohio:

    Jews and WASPs fared at the very top, one had “money (increasing),” the other “social power (decreasing).” The Asians were separated into several tranches […] Tamils hovered several blank spaces above Hispanics, who themselves rested on the shoulders of blacks.

    Et cetera. Anyway, I recommend it.

    • Replies: @Alden
    I’d like to know exactly which high school had rich WASPs and jews, Indians of various kinds, Tamils Hispanics and blacks all in the same school at the same time. And no non Jewish Whites who were German Slavic Italian Irish etc.

    And exactly how did her immigrant mother figure it all out? How many Jewish men marry Indians anyway? How many Hindu immigrants let their daughters marry out of their own caste, let alone American Jews?

    On the other hand American Jewish men don’t demand dowries for the arduous duty of marrying a woman.

    I’m too cynical and skeptical.
  12. It has come to this: Hostas rotting in the nursery.

  13. Anon[265] • Disclaimer says:

    Of course he has to raise prices, but I cannot believe that there is no pay level at which he cannot find kids in their early 20s who wouldn’t do this. Throw some crane truck, mini back hoe, and chainsaw time into the mix, and the boys will come.

    I had exactly this kind of work done on my property in Japan, took six weeks, two guys, father and son, several tons of rocks blocking my driveway during construction. Cedar and pine wood, chop saws, for deck and fencing. Masonry sledges and chisels. Rootballing a dozen small trees by hand. It takes muscle and it takes brains. Water drainage needs to be considered. Laser levels. Building a walkway path out of rocks of different depths with no concrete, but completely solid, no wobble.

    In Japan guys who do this kind of work are masculine, sexy, dress in cool traditional work clothes, have hot wives and enough kids that at least one boy will end up working with dad.

    My guy does competitive speed tree climbing with spike boots as a hobby.

    The Colorado guy just wants underpaid slave labor who won’t give him any lip.

    • Agree: bored identity
    • Replies: @The Alarmist

    Of course he has to raise prices, but I cannot believe that there is no pay level at which he cannot find kids in their early 20s who wouldn’t do this. Throw some crane truck, mini back hoe, and chainsaw time into the mix, and the boys will come.
     
    I made good money as a teen doing the neighbourhood lawns and gardens, but everyone seems to want to be an InstaGram Influencer while they go to School to become the person who runs the company that will pluck their highly qualified bottoms from debt peonage.
  14. In years past, many workers who previously had been admitted to the U.S. under the H-2B program were excluded from the annual quota of 66,000 visas.

    So I guess this means that the number of guestworkers grows by 66,000 each year – 66,000 in Year One, 132,000 in Year Two, 198,000 in Year Three, ad nauseum.

    He’s in desperation mode now, trying recruiting tactics like setting up a table with brochures and a banner in a Tucson suburb, looking for green card holders who might want to switch jobs.

    So no effort whatsoever to recruit low-skilled American workers in, say, Kentucky. I guess when he tries recruiting in Kentucky we’ll know that he’s really desperate.

    But now, few ski bums and college-aged young people are willing to toil in all conditions under the Colorado sun, he said.

    In jobs like the ones he’s offering recruitment is often done by word-of-mouth – one employee tells a brother or friend, and so on. All the mouths are now Spanish-speaking. And Americans got the message a long time ago that we aren’t wanted for these jobs, and that even if we are wanted we will soon be replaced once border security loosens up.

    Chris Romer, president and CEO of the Vail Valley Partnership, says a key question is: “What impact does that low unemployment level and the inability to bring employees into businesses have on our business growth and on our economic development as a community?” He said a recent workforce study by the chamber found that 75% of local businesses want to grow but are having a hard time doing so. And more than 60% of businesses have open positions but can’t fill the jobs.

    The median home price in Eagle County, Colorado is $734,000. You know what would help businesses in Vail grow using American labor? Affordable homes. I’m sure they’ll get right on it. All those SWPLs in Vail are just dying to live next to 2,000 sq foot modular homes with mechanics and landscapers as their neighbors – and English speaking ones they’d actually have to talk to. The help is supposed to be seen and not heard.

    “We’re still employing the (administrative) core, who’s willing to go behind the computer and manage. We’ve got plenty of that — brilliant people. But to find laborers … ” Ellison said.

    Sounds like he needs to pay the administrative core less and the laborers more. Who are they administering, anyhow, if they can’t get workers.

    Ellison says legal work visas, including temporary ones, have been lumped in with the dirty word of immigration in D.C., even though by law his workers return home each season.

    I’m sure they never manage to get their girlfriends or wives (or both) to squeeze out an anchor baby or three while they’re here. Never.

    “So that is a myth,” said Jennifer Law, a human resources director for Vail Resorts. “We spend a lot of time and money with attorneys to make sure that we dot our I’s and cross our T’s … because it’s an arduous process. Also, the Department of Labor actually sets the rates which we have to pay the workers, so we know what the cost is going into it, and that doesn’t necessarily save us any money either.”

    I’m sure every T is dotted and every I is crossed.

    Do you know how you can tell the H-2B program saves them money? Because they can’t find Americans to work at the wages they’re offering.

    Gary Woodworth, president and CEO of the Gallegos Corp. masonry and construction company in Wolcott, has been using H-2B visas for two decades — depending on temporary workers during the short building season in the Colorado mountains.

    Do you know who use to do a lot of seasonal work in this country? High school and college students. Do you suppose that a big part of the problem with the Snowflake Generation is that a decreasing number of them have ever done real work?

    “Because [comprehensive immigration reform] failed twice (in 2006 and 2013), and I don’t think it works. We really need to kind of take a step back and do disparate legislation for specific issues.”

    Finally, someone on the open borders side acknowledging that “comprehensive reform” is a joke.

    • Agree: Achmed E. Newman
    • Replies: @216

    So no effort whatsoever to recruit low-skilled American workers in, say, Kentucky. I guess when he tries recruiting in Kentucky we’ll know that he’s really desperate.
     
    Indian Reservations, Puerto Rico, basement NEETs, inmates

    That's a real sign of desperation.
    , @Dtbb
    You are right about the snowflakes. Sometimes I am given a kid from the trailer to help me do the layout on job sites. They all say they learned layout and surveying in college but most can't even operate the dumb end of the tape. I also have to watch them like a hawk so they don't fall off the building or something. The safety "engineers" are often the worst.
    , @Redneck farmer
    Unlike you growing up in 1910, great-grandpa, 1. Kids are required to go to school, and that gets enforced. 2. OHSA has banned high school kids from a lot of jobs. Even in farming, there are a lot of jobs kids can't do unless they're part of your family.
  15. @Lot
    Hire Americans? What if the guy unclogging Mitt Romney’s dolphin fountain is one of the ones he looted the pension and closed the factory on? Awkward! Bet you didn’t think of that, did you Sailer. Also, you wouldn’t believe what wimps rednecks are about sun exposure. And it isn’t like there’s some magic lotion you can apply to your skin that blocks the sun. By contrast, Mexicans are known for their especially vigorous labor between noon and 3 when the sun is hottest. They call it “siesta,” which is Spanish for “serf.”

    One thing i find odd about Mexican workers, is that they never wear shorts when working outside. They’ll be roofing some house in 110 degree weather, wearing jeans and a flannel shirt.

    I guess it’s a cultural thing, or maybe they have better heat tolerance.

    • Replies: @Clifford Brown
    A man should never wear shorts unless he is exercising or at the beach.
    , @Alden
    Best to be covered up to prevent sunburn. Construction they need arms and legs protected from cuts and scrapes. Might even be some workmen’s comp rules to prevent injury.

    Not everyone is sensitive to weather. I don’t notice heat till it gets to about 100 and I’m sure not Mexican.
    , @Clyde

    One thing i find odd about Mexican workers, is that they never wear shorts when working outside. They’ll be roofing some house in 110 degree weather, wearing jeans and a flannel shirt.
     
    I see them in sweatshirts too, laboring in the summer months. They usually have a hat on or other head covering that also covers the back of their neck, Talking about Central Americans and Mexicans. I have no idea how they can pull this off. But if you are young and skinny with a good heart and good circulation you are able to throw off the heat more easily.
    , @Jus' Sayin'...
    Construction work requires clothing that more or less covers one's body. In my late twenties and early thirties I worked on a pile driving crew, during some extremely hot New England summers. The work was usually eight to four with a half hour lunch break at noon. Everyone on the crew worked wearing a heavy, long sleeved shirt, heavy pants, thick gloves, a metal hard hat, and boots. We all did this even though the work was strenuous, the temperatures often reached 100 degrees, and the humidity could be what is usually described as oppressive.

    The reasons are obvious if one has any familiarity with this kind of work. Boiling hot creosote vapor was constantly sprayed off the piles when the hammer hit. It could burn off layers of skin if one was not protected. Handling thick rope and cable raised a constant threat of rope burns. Objects occasionally fell or were flung by machinery into areas where we might be working. Finally, there was a constant risk of falls, scrapes, and bruises that might have been serious had we all not been fully covered.

    I was the youngest guy on this crew. Most were in their forties and fifties, but a couple were pushing seventy or more. All had raised families on the money they earned in construction. All were native-born Americans of European descent except one, a Canadian of Irish descent. The pay and benefits were good, enough to raise a family on. The owner/operator of the rig really did treat his regular workers like they were close friends or family.

    Now, with unemployment rampant among the native-born, unskilled laborers in the same area where I once worked and still live today, I see cheap Indio, immigrant labor, none of whom have enough English to be able to work safe+ly and do the work properly doing jobs that native-born workers should be doing. The only reason is to squeeze out a few bucks more profit for the owners or save filthy rich pigs money building their crappy McMansions.

    No mention of any of this in the debates though. Trump has proven nothing more than a blowhard liar. The presidency is up for grabs to anyone who demonstrates real concern for the working people of this country. But apparently the political class and establishment of this country are incapable of producing such a person. All we can look forward to is either a slow decline into decay, corruption, and tyraany or a catastrophic and violent collapse. I'd prefer the latter.
    , @fish
    The Mexican concrete guys (many of those I see anyway) will wear shorts!
    , @Mike1
    It really is amazing that people are so divorced from physical labor that comments like this can get written. It has to mean you (and the many other comments displaying utter cluelessness) literally don't even know someone that works outside.

    The idea that there is an army of willing American born labor at the right price is also completey untrue. The lower reaches of US society are fully welfare integrated and wont work for more than a few hours. Price does not matter. I have paid way above market in a major metro to test this (at scale too - not random jobs). In non metro areas workers simply do not exist with current conditions.

    The middle class and above have no idea the extent of welfare in this country. It is a genuine career for the bottom part of society.

    You can make the immigration restrictionist argument without saying things that are untrue.
    , @Achmed E. Newman
    I started wearing long pants all summer when I got a motorcycle. Yes, I know, it's not gonna do much compared to leather clothes, but it kept me from burning myself on the exhaust. You get used to it.
    , @AnotherDad

    They’ll be roofing some house in 110 degree weather, wearing jeans and a flannel shirt.
     
    I'm up on my roof a fair bit in Florida nailing and tarring--the hurricanes loosened stuff up. Up there fixing/replacing some loose ridgeline shingles just a few weeks back. Always wearing jeans to avoid getting scraped up no matter the temperature. That's the norm for construction--jeans or some other heavy work pants, so avoid getting a lot of cuts and scrapes.
  16. How much does he pay? $15? $20? I find it impossible to believe that he wouldn’t have men lining up to work for him if he was paying $40 an hour. I like the way this humble landscaper, who started with a rake, is now a patriarchal figure, in his own mind, with his ‘family’ of Mexican migrant workers. How condescending, how patronizing. Americans aren’t soft, and they damn sure don’t want their boss to pretend he’s their daddy. They demand dignity. They demand a decent payday.

    • Replies: @George Taylor

    How much does he pay? $15? $20? I find it impossible to believe that he wouldn’t have men lining up to work for him if he was paying $40 an hour. I like the way this humble landscaper, who started with a rake, is now a patriarchal figure, in his own mind, with his ‘family’ of Mexican migrant workers. How condescending, how patronizing. Americans aren’t soft, and they damn sure don’t want their boss to pretend he’s their daddy. They demand dignity. They demand a decent payday.
     
    Typical of today's so called journalist. What's your average hourly salary for this kind of work question, seems blatantly obvious.
  17. Yet another self-serving turd who just doesn’t want to pony up more cash. Move on.

  18. this Glenn Ellison character sounds INCREDIBLY altruistic. It is so amazing that out of the goodness of his heart he was able to find squat indentured servants to build his landscaping business. He could have hired american workers, but instead chose to give the jobs to those with fewer opportunities who are so desperate for work they will accept peanuts. He has truly sacrificed so much to help others.

    • Replies: @Alden
    Maybe the idiot Senor Ramirez who drowned himself and his daughter had a job all arranged with Ellison.

    I believe he left Mexico because American employers had recruiters in those camps in Mexico. They don’t come here looking for work. They come here because they already have a job waiting.
  19. snow left melting on the mountain.

    • LOL: fish
    • Replies: @Neil Templeton
    Rivers running free, not fountained.
  20. @Hypnotoad666
    One thing i find odd about Mexican workers, is that they never wear shorts when working outside. They'll be roofing some house in 110 degree weather, wearing jeans and a flannel shirt.

    I guess it's a cultural thing, or maybe they have better heat tolerance.

    A man should never wear shorts unless he is exercising or at the beach.

    • Agree: Intelligent Dasein
    • Replies: @Lurker
    Correct. Rhodesian Light Infantry get a free pass too.
    , @Sextus Empiricus
    “A man should never wear shorts unless he is exercising or at the beach.”

    I wouldn’t even accept those exceptions. Shorts are for children under 6 and young women with very nice legs, period.
    , @Autochthon

    A man should never wear shorts unless he is exercising or at the beach.
     
    https://lastfm-img2.akamaized.net/i/u/ar0/1179c014583a4936bc8e01cabec463fd.jpg

    https://static.squarespace.com/static/4f705ee1e4b0aad9750e2e27/52f6867ae4b05acac210af8a/52f68680e4b05acac210de36/1311304896377/1000w/PhilCollins.JPG

    "You wear pants and bang on these damned things for three hours under hot lights or during the afternoon heat of a festival in August, pal!"

    http://i41.servimg.com/u/f41/15/41/45/44/20110710.jpg

    (Not a proper man.)
    , @The Wild Geese Howard
    Ahem:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bermuda_shorts

    Also:

    https://youtu.be/zbJhmHN36jE

  21. Perhaps they should get rid of the grass and swimming pools and fountains and flowers.

    They can replace them all with cotton, instead. Then they would a) have a cash crop; and b) the American people would know exactly who these people are supposed to remind us of when they beg to import cheap, servile labor.

  22. Gee this is funny. Earlier this evening, I finished sanding and painting the deck in the back of my house, and now I’m reading this article. I’m approximately Steve’s age, and I worked a summer doing landscaping in Colorado when I was in college — back in those 1980s Mr. Ellison talks about. I did it for the money, working for a guy like him. I paint my own deck now, do my own landscaping (“and do the other things, not because they are easy but because they are hard.” JFK, Rice University Speech, 1962) no, because I’d rather keep my money than give it to Mexicans or guys like Ellison (The one I worked for was a prick).

    Maybe it’s only older Americans who enjoy doing outdoor work now. If college students in Colorado don’t want to get some exercise outside in the mountains (and make money!) then why the hell are they there in the first place?

    What a pussy country it is now.

    PS: People with elaborate landscaping and “water features” in dry Colorado are dipshits. I grew up in a custom house in that same general area. Hardly anybody needed landscaping, nor wanted it, because the land was so beautiful. That was the whole point of being there.

    • Agree: Daniel H
    • Replies: @Barnard

    If college students in Colorado don’t want to get some exercise outside in the mountains (and make money!) then why the hell are they there in the first place?
     
    It might have something to do with legalized marijuana.
    , @Forbes
    Yes, and '80s Colorado had all sorts of water-usage limitations, e.g., lawn sprinkling and "water features" were distinctly frowned upon, as water was expensive and in short supply. "No-watering" landscaping, consistent with the arid high plains desert environment was the socially-accepted style.
  23. Plausible that the Great Again Congolese will be mowing your lawns?

    Quite possibly yes, because DHS is granting Employment Authorization Documents “permisos” to any asylum seeker.

  24. @Wilkey

    In years past, many workers who previously had been admitted to the U.S. under the H-2B program were excluded from the annual quota of 66,000 visas.
     
    So I guess this means that the number of guestworkers grows by 66,000 each year - 66,000 in Year One, 132,000 in Year Two, 198,000 in Year Three, ad nauseum.

    He’s in desperation mode now, trying recruiting tactics like setting up a table with brochures and a banner in a Tucson suburb, looking for green card holders who might want to switch jobs.
     
    So no effort whatsoever to recruit low-skilled American workers in, say, Kentucky. I guess when he tries recruiting in Kentucky we'll know that he's really desperate.

    But now, few ski bums and college-aged young people are willing to toil in all conditions under the Colorado sun, he said.
     
    In jobs like the ones he's offering recruitment is often done by word-of-mouth - one employee tells a brother or friend, and so on. All the mouths are now Spanish-speaking. And Americans got the message a long time ago that we aren't wanted for these jobs, and that even if we are wanted we will soon be replaced once border security loosens up.

    Chris Romer, president and CEO of the Vail Valley Partnership, says a key question is: “What impact does that low unemployment level and the inability to bring employees into businesses have on our business growth and on our economic development as a community?” He said a recent workforce study by the chamber found that 75% of local businesses want to grow but are having a hard time doing so. And more than 60% of businesses have open positions but can’t fill the jobs.
     
    The median home price in Eagle County, Colorado is $734,000. You know what would help businesses in Vail grow using American labor? Affordable homes. I'm sure they'll get right on it. All those SWPLs in Vail are just dying to live next to 2,000 sq foot modular homes with mechanics and landscapers as their neighbors - and English speaking ones they'd actually have to talk to. The help is supposed to be seen and not heard.

    “We’re still employing the (administrative) core, who’s willing to go behind the computer and manage. We’ve got plenty of that — brilliant people. But to find laborers … ” Ellison said.
     
    Sounds like he needs to pay the administrative core less and the laborers more. Who are they administering, anyhow, if they can't get workers.

    Ellison says legal work visas, including temporary ones, have been lumped in with the dirty word of immigration in D.C., even though by law his workers return home each season.
     
    I'm sure they never manage to get their girlfriends or wives (or both) to squeeze out an anchor baby or three while they're here. Never.

    “So that is a myth,” said Jennifer Law, a human resources director for Vail Resorts. “We spend a lot of time and money with attorneys to make sure that we dot our I’s and cross our T’s … because it’s an arduous process. Also, the Department of Labor actually sets the rates which we have to pay the workers, so we know what the cost is going into it, and that doesn’t necessarily save us any money either.”
     
    I'm sure every T is dotted and every I is crossed.

    Do you know how you can tell the H-2B program saves them money? Because they can't find Americans to work at the wages they're offering.


    Gary Woodworth, president and CEO of the Gallegos Corp. masonry and construction company in Wolcott, has been using H-2B visas for two decades — depending on temporary workers during the short building season in the Colorado mountains.
     
    Do you know who use to do a lot of seasonal work in this country? High school and college students. Do you suppose that a big part of the problem with the Snowflake Generation is that a decreasing number of them have ever done real work?

    “Because [comprehensive immigration reform] failed twice (in 2006 and 2013), and I don’t think it works. We really need to kind of take a step back and do disparate legislation for specific issues.”
     
    Finally, someone on the open borders side acknowledging that "comprehensive reform" is a joke.

    So no effort whatsoever to recruit low-skilled American workers in, say, Kentucky. I guess when he tries recruiting in Kentucky we’ll know that he’s really desperate.

    Indian Reservations, Puerto Rico, basement NEETs, inmates

    That’s a real sign of desperation.

  25. I was once a Big Brother with Big Brothers of America. I am reminded of a time I came to pick up my charge around noon and his mom told me he’d not cleaned his room all morning, despite being told hours ago he could not leave with me until he did. Of course I explained to him that all the time and effort wasted arguing with his mom and refusing to clean the room (hours and hours) had been more trouble than simply cleaning it in the first place (about a fifteen-minute chore).

    I cannot now but wonder did my charge grow up, change his name, forget everything I taught him, then move to Colorado (he’d be in his late twenties now, though, so I guess not): for all his efforts driving all over North America and bitching to the papers all day, sitting around at folding tables with his thumb in his ass, and so on, couldn’t this jerk more easily have paid an American a market wage to dig ditches for him?

    • Agree: Daniel H
  26. A union carpenter in San Diego, CA. takes home, cash, $39 per hour, not counting all the benefits, etc. Perhaps, landscapers could be had for forty or fifty dollars an hour, cash, and then the benefits on top, why not?

    • Replies: @Dtbb
    Roofers here in Florida make a third of that. Hell as an experienced field engineer I don't make near that!
  27. And forget about finding naturalized American citizens to do the backbreaking outdoor work required in landscaping, Ellison said. Maybe that was true in the 1980s, when he first moved to the Vail Valley. But now, few ski bums and college-aged young people are willing to toil in all conditions under the Colorado sun, he said.

    Nice pivot Mr. Ellison. Naturalized Americans in this day and age usually means non-Whites who were born abroad and have now naturalized as US citizens. Which would mean these newly minted US citizens are not interested in the work you have to offer.

    However, you snidely made reference to ski-bums and college-aged young people which of course is a code word for American-born Whites. The SJW is strong with this one.

    He can’t even acknowledge that non-Whites with status don’t want what he has to offer. So he has to blame Whites. Maybe in the 1980s you could claim if Whites did not want to work, then you needed immigrants. But in 2019 America about half of those 20 and under are non-White. This means when a-holes like Ellison bitch about not being able to find “Americans” willing to work, it’s just as likely they are non-White as White. But guys like him will still imply it’s lazy White folk that are the problem.

    Ellison said he had come to see his hardworking men more as family than employees. And he called them vital contributors to the local economy.

    Why doesn’t Mr. Ellison move to Mexico and take his business there? He would have an uninterruptible supply of labor.

    • Agree: Cortes
    • Replies: @Mr McKenna

    Nice pivot Mr. Ellison.
     
    Funny surname, Ellison. Every Ellison I've known IRL was of the Tribe.
    As is one of the richest men in the world:

    https://www.irishtimes.com/polopoly_fs/1.2797172.1474304111!/image/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/box_620_330/image.jpg

    The only other Ellison I can think of was Ralph,
    who was definitely from a different tribe.
  28. @AnotherDad
    Beyond the silly squawking of this greedy parasite, and the obvious point that Richy Rich can pay the market rate for American stoop labor if he wants his fancy water feature...

    “For the most part, we, as Americans, have grown soft. We don’t like to go out there and work like that,”
     
    I will say that all these stories bring home the point that relying on foreign cheap labor does erode the national character in a way reminiscent of welfare.

    A nation, like a person, degrades in character when they shirk work.

    I agree. Perhaps employers want foreign labor because Americans have gone soft. Or perhaps Americans have gone soft because a lot of these jobs are now closed to them.

  29. “For the most part, we, as Americans, have grown soft. We don’t like to go out there and work like that,” he said. “The idea behind work today is using enhancers and get to the fitness center. But the idea of putting callouses on your fingers and doing a hard day’s worth of work, not just today but tomorrow and next week and next month, man, that’s something from the past.

    America doesn’t seem to have any shortage of guys who are willing to walk around under the hot sun in Afghanistan or Iraq, carrying a bunch of gear and risking getting killed. Maybe Ellison hasn’t looked hard enough. Does he even try to recruit American workers?

    Perhaps there just isn’t any place in America anymore for contractors like Mr. Ellison who hire foreign coolie labor. Maybe he should find a new line of work.

    • Replies: @Federalist
    Exactly. Young American (mostly white) men populate the Army and Marine Corps infantry. They do so voluntarily. It's a lot harder than doing landscaping in Colorado plus you can get killed in Iraq or Afganistan, etc.

    White Americans can do this landscaping work and would do it but you have to pay them a lot. It's true you're not going to get ski bums or trust fund kids to do it. But men will come from all over the country if you pay enough. Men have always gone and moved to all kinds of middle of nowhere crappy places for good money. Think of gold rushes, the shale oil boom, and fishing boats in Alaska. They sure as hell would go to Vail.
  30. Awww, the rich of Vail can’t get new Koi ponds. I weep for them. Let them make do with lawn-jockeys and plastic pink flamingos.

  31. @Clifford Brown
    A man should never wear shorts unless he is exercising or at the beach.

    Correct. Rhodesian Light Infantry get a free pass too.

  32. Gardening is not back breaking work. All his rich customers will soon find their schools over run with the retard kids if the Hispanic gardeners.

    It happens over and over again. Rich develop a nice neighborhood, hire blacks and Hispanics for house and handyman work 2 generations later the thug children of the workers drive out the rich.

    Best example is the south side of Chicago which was developed as the wealthiest section of the city. West side was for the factories and their workers. North side for the middle class

    A convenient railroad went straight down to south of New Orleans. The blacks went directly into the homes of the rich and they and their thug kids destroyed the neighborhood by 1950.

  33. @BigDickNick
    this Glenn Ellison character sounds INCREDIBLY altruistic. It is so amazing that out of the goodness of his heart he was able to find squat indentured servants to build his landscaping business. He could have hired american workers, but instead chose to give the jobs to those with fewer opportunities who are so desperate for work they will accept peanuts. He has truly sacrificed so much to help others.

    Maybe the idiot Senor Ramirez who drowned himself and his daughter had a job all arranged with Ellison.

    I believe he left Mexico because American employers had recruiters in those camps in Mexico. They don’t come here looking for work. They come here because they already have a job waiting.

  34. @Clifford Brown
    A man should never wear shorts unless he is exercising or at the beach.

    “A man should never wear shorts unless he is exercising or at the beach.”

    I wouldn’t even accept those exceptions. Shorts are for children under 6 and young women with very nice legs, period.

    • Replies: @Mr McKenna
    You people definitely don't live in the hot, humid part of the country.
    Which is actually a whole lot of the country.
    , @obwandiyag
    You got it.
  35. Anonymous[375] • Disclaimer says:

    He doesn’t need to pay more to attract employees. Because he probably can’t pay too much more, enough to attract Americans, and still run a viable business. He needs to go out of business and find something else to do.

    The reason we have all these McMansions and fancy lawns and restaurants these days is because our immigration policy effectively subsidizes the construction, lawn service, food service, etc. industries with lower cost labor. Several decades ago, before the recent period of mass immigration, we had much more modest suburban homes, simpler lawns, and much fewer restaurants. You basically had fast food joints, greasy spoons, and a handful of fancy restaurants. We have a lot more and much better dining out options today because the immigrant labor subsidy to the restaurant industry, but this really should not be a priority of our public policy, just as landscaping should not be a priority.

    • Agree: Redneck farmer
    • Replies: @Intelligent Dasein
    This is a very good point reminiscent of the ones I often make myself. The low, modest houses of 50 years ago represent the amount of capital that can actually be committed to housing, given a more ordinary income distribution and wage structure. In simple terms, that is what we could produce at a price we could afford. Now houses and restaurants and services are all overcapitalized. (And let's not forget cars; there are way too many cars on the road.)

    Once the reset happens, all of this will have to be liquidated. It was never really affordable in the first place and the iron laws of economics dictate that the accounts must eventually balance.
    , @Forbes
    Two plus decades of very easy money has subsidized consumption at the individual level and overspending at the national level. The over-consumption and overspending has been financed by debt and not paid for out of income.

    Near-zero interest rates distorts decision-making, by advancing (bringing forward) spending, as there is no earned-interest benefit to savings and deferred consumption. Investment decisions are similarly distorted, causing savers to reach for yield in risky, less liquid speculative investments, as savings accounts offer sub-1% rates. Malinvestment on a national and global scale is the result, e.g. too many McMansions, too many shopping malls, too many restaurants, too many cars. And way too much cheap shit imported from China (which is the reverse side of the imported/immigrant cheap labor coin).

    And two generations of the fiscal/financial Ponzi scheme is part of what drives the open borders and cheap labor lobby--to continue the charade of easy living, and pass off the payroll deduction funding to the next cohort, which must be numerically enlarged to continue the pyramid structure.
  36. @Hypnotoad666
    One thing i find odd about Mexican workers, is that they never wear shorts when working outside. They'll be roofing some house in 110 degree weather, wearing jeans and a flannel shirt.

    I guess it's a cultural thing, or maybe they have better heat tolerance.

    Best to be covered up to prevent sunburn. Construction they need arms and legs protected from cuts and scrapes. Might even be some workmen’s comp rules to prevent injury.

    Not everyone is sensitive to weather. I don’t notice heat till it gets to about 100 and I’m sure not Mexican.

  37. And forget about finding naturalized American citizens to do the backbreaking outdoor work…

    .
    So the article explains the topsy-turvy hierarchy of landscaping-worker desirability: first, H-2B’s who can simply be deported if they ask for a raise; second, green-card holders, though they are really too privileged to rely upon; third, naturalized citizens, because when they first immigrated they learned how to cope with the company owner’s overweening arrogance and greed; and fourth– so undesirable they are not directly mentioned in the story– natural-born citizens.

    Who wants to bet against the likelihood that Mr. Ellison now hires illegal aliens, since he considers other workers too costly or too uppity?

  38. @Clifford Brown
    A man should never wear shorts unless he is exercising or at the beach.

    A man should never wear shorts unless he is exercising or at the beach.

    “You wear pants and bang on these damned things for three hours under hot lights or during the afternoon heat of a festival in August, pal!”

    (Not a proper man.)

  39. @Hypnotoad666
    One thing i find odd about Mexican workers, is that they never wear shorts when working outside. They'll be roofing some house in 110 degree weather, wearing jeans and a flannel shirt.

    I guess it's a cultural thing, or maybe they have better heat tolerance.

    One thing i find odd about Mexican workers, is that they never wear shorts when working outside. They’ll be roofing some house in 110 degree weather, wearing jeans and a flannel shirt.

    I see them in sweatshirts too, laboring in the summer months. They usually have a hat on or other head covering that also covers the back of their neck, Talking about Central Americans and Mexicans. I have no idea how they can pull this off. But if you are young and skinny with a good heart and good circulation you are able to throw off the heat more easily.

  40. Long time Colorado resident who left recently because I could no longer stand California East. Avid skier for 30 years in the Colorado mountains.

    Ellison has a point. The ski bum culture has basically been dead for 10-15 years. In the ’70s, ’80s, and for part of the ’90s much of the labor required to operate the ski industry was supplied by ski bums who lived year-round in the mountains and were available for summer work. That started changing in the ’90s, when the ski industry became much more corporate, lift prices rose dramatically, and mountain real estate went crazy. It became impossible to survive as a ski bum.

    Much of the unskilled labor in ski towns is now provided by H2B visa holders that corporate resorts bring in from Mexico, Eastern Europe, and even Russia. Most stay for ski season and then go home in the summer, so there’s a real labor shortage in the mountains during the summer. It’s mildly ironic that in some ways Ellison is, himself, a victim of the H2B visa program that he relies upon for his own business.

    • Replies: @Wilkey
    "Much of the unskilled labor in ski towns is now provided by H2B visa holders that corporate resorts bring in from Mexico, Eastern Europe, and even Russia."

    We spent a few weeks on vacation in one of these ski towns (not Vail) one summer during the Great Recession. Unemployment rates were already over 10% in several states, but there were two H-2B workers ringing up groceries at the grocery store. One was from China, the other was from Russia. The Russian girl also worked at the restaurant where we ate breakfast a few times, then was working at the grocery store every single night we went in. She was probably clocking 70-80 hours a week.

    Both were nice girls. Nothing against either of them. But I wondered why the hell we were bringing in people from overseas when so many Americans were collecting unemployment and food stamps.

    , @The Wild Geese Howard
    There are ski bums out there, but they are fewer and farther between these days.

    Transient van living and couch surfing are basically the only cheap lodging options in most mountain towns.

    I think lift ticket sharing is still fairly easily done. Even with the modernized ticketing systems they never check your ID versus the name on the ticket unless you are violating resort policies or the law.

    Then again, a lot of the guys who would have been ski bums in the past are just skiing the backcountry where none of the annoying resort bureaucracy exists.
  41. @slumber_j
    Entirely off-topic, but I'm reading Gary Shteyngart's novel Lake Success and find it perhaps the iSteve-iest thing I've ever encountered by someone other than Tom Wolfe. Like Shteyngart's other work, it's also very well written, and both brutal and often really funny.

    The hedge-fund-running Jewish protagonist and his southern-Indian-extracted wife are extremely well-drawn, including her uncomfortable memories of her immigrant mother's having "drawn Seema a chart of the social acceptability of her friends" back in Seema's high-school days in Ohio:

    Jews and WASPs fared at the very top, one had "money (increasing)," the other "social power (decreasing)." The Asians were separated into several tranches [...] Tamils hovered several blank spaces above Hispanics, who themselves rested on the shoulders of blacks.
     
    Et cetera. Anyway, I recommend it.

    I’d like to know exactly which high school had rich WASPs and jews, Indians of various kinds, Tamils Hispanics and blacks all in the same school at the same time. And no non Jewish Whites who were German Slavic Italian Irish etc.

    And exactly how did her immigrant mother figure it all out? How many Jewish men marry Indians anyway? How many Hindu immigrants let their daughters marry out of their own caste, let alone American Jews?

    On the other hand American Jewish men don’t demand dowries for the arduous duty of marrying a woman.

    I’m too cynical and skeptical.

    • Replies: @slumber_j
    Sort of a silly argument to rebut, but I went to a rich kids' public high school (at the other end of Ohio from this fictional character's school, but still...) that wasn't all that large but had all of those sorts of people--except "Indians of various kinds," which don't feature in the passage I quoted from the book either. As far as I knew, there were just a few Indians or whatever.

    There weren't ethnic whites who identified as such at all. Any white tribalism had been dissolved in money.

    As far as the intermarriage of Jew and Indian, the attendant difficulties are discussed early and often in the novel, which is part of what makes it so Sailerian. Short account: he's a Princeton hedgie, she's a Yalie lawyer, they met at a Manhattan rooftop party for the 120th anniversary of Vogue or whatever, having at least partly transformed themselves into free-floating Cosmopolites of the New Order. And God knows I've met plenty of people like that.

    I would suggest that--while I'm sure the book isn't flawless--Gary Shteyngart is a lot smarter than you imagine him to be.
    , @Discordiax
    Stuyvesant High School, where Shteyngart went, was about 55% Asian at the time. About 5-10% NAM, mostly Caribbean. The other 40% was distributed among Jewish kids, second-generations from Eastern Europe, old money WASPs living in Manhattan (not a good place to raise your 14 year old daughter in the Guiliani era).
    , @J.Ross
    >how did she figure it out?
    Are you joking? She's literally equating class with cash.
    THE MYSTERIOUS EAST LADIES AND GENTLEMEN
  42. Where do these Hispanic Indians and their families live shop socialize and where do the kids go to school?

    Vail I hope.

    • Replies: @Forbes
    Eagle (about 35 miles west of Vail) is more likely. There would be no housing in Vail for seasonal workers. Fifty years ago, the winter seasonal workers lived in Minturn, about 10 miles west of Vail. Summer seasonal workers would require no schooling for children.
  43. Colorado is not a serious place—take it from the Denverite. That sort of cant is pretty typical of what you get from the latte-sipping classes out here. I’m forever bemused that I have to live and work around such an entitled bunch of self-important twats. To say that they think the world revolves around them would be something of an understatement. If you work in the service economy in any capacity, they treat you like you’re their personal valet and everything that might be going wrong with their day is your responsibility to fix—job descriptions, finances, and logic be damned. Yuppie with a problem over here.

    • Replies: @Forbes
    Similar to my Denver, Colorado experience in the '80s. I recall Boulder residents who actually verbalized that they were living in "the greatest place in the world."

    Now we all like to believe we're living in the best place for our own interests, preferences, and trade-offs--but it takes some narrow-minded, cosseted, arrogance to openly declare to others that it's the greatest place in the world. And that's just for openers...
  44. OT:

    Army Still Tweaking Green Service Uniform as Recruiter Wear Test Gets Underway

    27 Jun 2019

    Military.com | By Matthew Cox

    U.S. Army recruiters are starting to show off the service’s new World War II style service uniform as Army officials make final tweaks to the classic uniform.

    The Army has begun fielding more than 200 sets of the new Army Green Service Uniform (AGSU) to recruiters and other soldiers who will participate in a limited user evaluation to make sure the new two-tone uniform is ready for its planned fielding to new soldiers in 2020.

    Dailey said the limited user evaluation is designed to fine-tune the fit and small aspects of the Army Green Uniform as well as ensure that industry can “actually manufacture at the quality and the standard and the quantity that we need.”

    The Army issued about 165 AGSUs to active and National Guard recruiters from the New England Recruiting Battalion in late March and plans to issue another 69 AGSUs to recruiters for the evaluation, Army spokeswoman Heather Hagan told Military.com.

    “So, the design is done, the colors are done, but we are still making small tweaks to the overall fit and performance, the material and things like that,” Dailey said.

    The plan is to begin issuing the AGSU to new soldiers in 2020. The current ASU will become the Army’s optional dress uniform.

    🙂

  45. @trelane
    Mexicans love to do backbreaking work in the Colorado sun all day for little to no pay. They love it! Can't get enough of it the little brown buggers.

    Exactly. And after several years in the USA, they’re just like the natives, only dumber, poorer, and angrier. Oddly enough, they also get used to freebies, which our candidates are now explicitly promising to every single person in the world who manages to set foot on our side of the Rio Grande (or JFK tarmac).

    Glen Ellison, a landscape contractor in Eagle, sponsored 35 workers, many from one city in Mexico

    35 workers, that must mean about 200 more Mexicans now (not mentioned in the article) many of which are anchor babies of one kind or another, and many of which (being from the same village) are probably marrying cousins or half-siblings, meaning that their collective IQ is under yet another kind of assault.

    No matter, when these go stale we’ll just import the next ‘tranche’ of desperadoes.

    • Replies: @bomag

    ...we’ll just import the next ‘tranche’ of desperadoes.
     
    The numbers here are interesting. The article mentions a quota of 66,000, with some exemptions above that. Migrant labor groups count workers in the hundred thousands.

    But we import 1.5 million or so a year. What is the career length of a Vail landscape laborer? Twenty years? What percentage of immigrants work a contributing job? It seems that we are mining a scarce mineral: for every worker, we import another 99 who do little.
  46. And forget about finding naturalized American citizens to do the backbreaking outdoor work required in landscaping, Ellison said.

    What happens to the ‘jobs Americans won’t do’ when we reward illegals with citizenship? There’s the answer.

    Rinse, repeat.

    The good thing is, there’s no shortage of helots to import. If you like your illegals, you can keep your illegals!

  47. But now, few ski bums and college-aged young people are willing to toil in all conditions under the Colorado sun, he said.

    Average July high temperature in Vail, Colorado: 77 degrees.

    Funny. The average July high in my city is in the 90s, but there appears to be no shortage of landscaping labor.

    The fact is that Vail is just too damn expensive for landscaping workers to buy a home in, or even rent in, and there aren’t any big cities very close by. Denver is almost two hours away, and I’ve heard that drive is a bitch in the winter. You need to either pay them enough to make it worth the longer commute, or you need housing they can afford to buy.

    This is the problem with our immigration policy, and with allowing the economy to develop around the assumption of unlimited cheap labor. If the guestworker plan hadn’t been in existence all these years then the people building these homes would have been taking into account the need for American labor all along. Now you have these wild fluctuations based on the whims of Congress and the White House.

    Vail needs to be weened off its addiction to foreign labor, and there’s no time better than the present to start.

    • Agree: Dtbb, Old Prude
    • Replies: @Logan
    Not directly familiar with Vail, but Aspen is a somewhat similar community. A couple of decades ago the road west out of Aspen had enormous traffic jams morning and evening as the worker bees commuted to and from their trailers and hovels some distance down the valley.
    , @Achmed E. Newman
    AGREED again, and with so many great comments here, I don't have enough to go around.
  48. Toiling under “the Colorado sun,” huh?

    *facepalm*

    I find it really hard to believe that today’s college students are more lazy and spoiled than I was back in the day, yet every summer the golf courses and landscape firms back in Alabama — I see your “Colorado sun” and raise you — had plenty of college boys willing to bust their asses all week for weekend beer money.

    I’m not even gonna lie and say “kids these days” are too lazy, because we were lazy as hell. You know what got us off our lazy asses? Money.

    And don’t even give me the crap about “Mexicans do a better job, tho.” No they don’t. I’ve seen it with my own eyes. They’re not better — just cheaper.

    The kids haven’t gotten lazier. The businesses have just gotten cheaper…just like everybody else in America. Hell, consumers these days have been trained to accept cheap, crappy, disposable products everywhere — is it any surprise businesses feel the same way about labor?

    • Replies: @Logan
    I have a good friend in Houston. Mexican ancestry but raised in a North TX Anglo town. Looks very, very mestizo. Learned to speak Spanish as a adult and has an atrocious Anglo accent. Confuses the hell out of people. LOL

    According to him, Anglos are physically lazy and Mexicans are intellectually lazy.
    , @Barnard
    I would say some college students are lazier and some don't want to do manual labor at all. Part of that is understandable, those that want/need to work feel like they need to get experience in the field they are pursuing, which is not going to be landscaping or golf course mowing. Another problem is their summer break doesn't match up well with the employer's season. The employer needs someone from April to October/early November. The college student may be available from the first week of June until the last week of August. Plus he also wants a week off to go to a friend's wedding and another to take a vacation.

    Here is ad run nationally by a landscaper in Vail to meet the advertising requirements for H-2B visa eligibility. He is offering $17.50 an hour, with OT possibilities, a per diem and a bonus if they stay until the end of the season. For a man in his 20s who did not pursue any education beyond high school this is a good job that pays enough for him to support himself. He could do this in the summer and work at a ski resort in the winter and make around $40k. That is not a good long term plan, but could help some of these young men fill in a gap while they figure out what kind of career to pursue.

    The average unskilled working class American is simply not a good employee. Glossing over or ignoring the general lack of work ethic and reliability in this group is not going to solve this problem. This is a symptom of societal decline, there is no longer a force on the lower levels of the working class to keep them putting in a honest day's work to meet their basic needs. I oppose bringing in foreign workers by the thousands, but as a society we have to find a way to enforce some basic standards among the unskilled labor class if we want that to change. Especially considering the children of the unskilled foreign workers are going to regress to that mean rather than become doctors and lawyers like the left wants us to believe.

    https://g.co/kgs/rf8RRr
    , @Achmed E. Newman
    AGREED.

    A contractor near me hired crews of Mexicans to tear down one house and build an unsightly McMansion that towers above the rest of the houses. These guys work hard but don't do quality work. People don't know that this work requires lots of thinking, and, as someone noted here, perhaps these folks are lazy with their thinking.

    It took about 6 months of additional work after someone put an offer on the house to fix things that were wrong per an inspection. I told the contractor he was losing his ass, and he kept saying "that's your opinion". I said "there's no opinion about it, you're either losing your ass, or you're not. You're losing your ass on this deal!" "OK, I'm losing my ass." he finally admitted.
  49. A lot of gardeners in my Mum’s leafy suburb of London. Oddly enough the gardeners are almost all English, actually not come across a foreign one, often with a middle class or better accent. It is pretty pleasant work and if you have family money then it is a nice way to live.

    • Agree: jim jones
  50. @FrmColo
    Long time Colorado resident who left recently because I could no longer stand California East. Avid skier for 30 years in the Colorado mountains.

    Ellison has a point. The ski bum culture has basically been dead for 10-15 years. In the '70s, '80s, and for part of the '90s much of the labor required to operate the ski industry was supplied by ski bums who lived year-round in the mountains and were available for summer work. That started changing in the '90s, when the ski industry became much more corporate, lift prices rose dramatically, and mountain real estate went crazy. It became impossible to survive as a ski bum.

    Much of the unskilled labor in ski towns is now provided by H2B visa holders that corporate resorts bring in from Mexico, Eastern Europe, and even Russia. Most stay for ski season and then go home in the summer, so there's a real labor shortage in the mountains during the summer. It's mildly ironic that in some ways Ellison is, himself, a victim of the H2B visa program that he relies upon for his own business.

    “Much of the unskilled labor in ski towns is now provided by H2B visa holders that corporate resorts bring in from Mexico, Eastern Europe, and even Russia.”

    We spent a few weeks on vacation in one of these ski towns (not Vail) one summer during the Great Recession. Unemployment rates were already over 10% in several states, but there were two H-2B workers ringing up groceries at the grocery store. One was from China, the other was from Russia. The Russian girl also worked at the restaurant where we ate breakfast a few times, then was working at the grocery store every single night we went in. She was probably clocking 70-80 hours a week.

    Both were nice girls. Nothing against either of them. But I wondered why the hell we were bringing in people from overseas when so many Americans were collecting unemployment and food stamps.

    • Replies: @Uncle Dan
    “But I wondered why the hell we were bringing in people from overseas when so many Americans were collecting unemployment and food stamps.”

    Because so many Americans were collecting unemployment and food stamps! If those bennies weren’t available, they’d be hustling like the Russian and Chinese girls.
  51. @Wilkey

    In years past, many workers who previously had been admitted to the U.S. under the H-2B program were excluded from the annual quota of 66,000 visas.
     
    So I guess this means that the number of guestworkers grows by 66,000 each year - 66,000 in Year One, 132,000 in Year Two, 198,000 in Year Three, ad nauseum.

    He’s in desperation mode now, trying recruiting tactics like setting up a table with brochures and a banner in a Tucson suburb, looking for green card holders who might want to switch jobs.
     
    So no effort whatsoever to recruit low-skilled American workers in, say, Kentucky. I guess when he tries recruiting in Kentucky we'll know that he's really desperate.

    But now, few ski bums and college-aged young people are willing to toil in all conditions under the Colorado sun, he said.
     
    In jobs like the ones he's offering recruitment is often done by word-of-mouth - one employee tells a brother or friend, and so on. All the mouths are now Spanish-speaking. And Americans got the message a long time ago that we aren't wanted for these jobs, and that even if we are wanted we will soon be replaced once border security loosens up.

    Chris Romer, president and CEO of the Vail Valley Partnership, says a key question is: “What impact does that low unemployment level and the inability to bring employees into businesses have on our business growth and on our economic development as a community?” He said a recent workforce study by the chamber found that 75% of local businesses want to grow but are having a hard time doing so. And more than 60% of businesses have open positions but can’t fill the jobs.
     
    The median home price in Eagle County, Colorado is $734,000. You know what would help businesses in Vail grow using American labor? Affordable homes. I'm sure they'll get right on it. All those SWPLs in Vail are just dying to live next to 2,000 sq foot modular homes with mechanics and landscapers as their neighbors - and English speaking ones they'd actually have to talk to. The help is supposed to be seen and not heard.

    “We’re still employing the (administrative) core, who’s willing to go behind the computer and manage. We’ve got plenty of that — brilliant people. But to find laborers … ” Ellison said.
     
    Sounds like he needs to pay the administrative core less and the laborers more. Who are they administering, anyhow, if they can't get workers.

    Ellison says legal work visas, including temporary ones, have been lumped in with the dirty word of immigration in D.C., even though by law his workers return home each season.
     
    I'm sure they never manage to get their girlfriends or wives (or both) to squeeze out an anchor baby or three while they're here. Never.

    “So that is a myth,” said Jennifer Law, a human resources director for Vail Resorts. “We spend a lot of time and money with attorneys to make sure that we dot our I’s and cross our T’s … because it’s an arduous process. Also, the Department of Labor actually sets the rates which we have to pay the workers, so we know what the cost is going into it, and that doesn’t necessarily save us any money either.”
     
    I'm sure every T is dotted and every I is crossed.

    Do you know how you can tell the H-2B program saves them money? Because they can't find Americans to work at the wages they're offering.


    Gary Woodworth, president and CEO of the Gallegos Corp. masonry and construction company in Wolcott, has been using H-2B visas for two decades — depending on temporary workers during the short building season in the Colorado mountains.
     
    Do you know who use to do a lot of seasonal work in this country? High school and college students. Do you suppose that a big part of the problem with the Snowflake Generation is that a decreasing number of them have ever done real work?

    “Because [comprehensive immigration reform] failed twice (in 2006 and 2013), and I don’t think it works. We really need to kind of take a step back and do disparate legislation for specific issues.”
     
    Finally, someone on the open borders side acknowledging that "comprehensive reform" is a joke.

    You are right about the snowflakes. Sometimes I am given a kid from the trailer to help me do the layout on job sites. They all say they learned layout and surveying in college but most can’t even operate the dumb end of the tape. I also have to watch them like a hawk so they don’t fall off the building or something. The safety “engineers” are often the worst.

  52. @Anonymous
    He doesn't need to pay more to attract employees. Because he probably can't pay too much more, enough to attract Americans, and still run a viable business. He needs to go out of business and find something else to do.

    The reason we have all these McMansions and fancy lawns and restaurants these days is because our immigration policy effectively subsidizes the construction, lawn service, food service, etc. industries with lower cost labor. Several decades ago, before the recent period of mass immigration, we had much more modest suburban homes, simpler lawns, and much fewer restaurants. You basically had fast food joints, greasy spoons, and a handful of fancy restaurants. We have a lot more and much better dining out options today because the immigrant labor subsidy to the restaurant industry, but this really should not be a priority of our public policy, just as landscaping should not be a priority.

    This is a very good point reminiscent of the ones I often make myself. The low, modest houses of 50 years ago represent the amount of capital that can actually be committed to housing, given a more ordinary income distribution and wage structure. In simple terms, that is what we could produce at a price we could afford. Now houses and restaurants and services are all overcapitalized. (And let’s not forget cars; there are way too many cars on the road.)

    Once the reset happens, all of this will have to be liquidated. It was never really affordable in the first place and the iron laws of economics dictate that the accounts must eventually balance.

  53. @istevefan

    And forget about finding naturalized American citizens to do the backbreaking outdoor work required in landscaping, Ellison said. Maybe that was true in the 1980s, when he first moved to the Vail Valley. But now, few ski bums and college-aged young people are willing to toil in all conditions under the Colorado sun, he said.
     
    Nice pivot Mr. Ellison. Naturalized Americans in this day and age usually means non-Whites who were born abroad and have now naturalized as US citizens. Which would mean these newly minted US citizens are not interested in the work you have to offer.

    However, you snidely made reference to ski-bums and college-aged young people which of course is a code word for American-born Whites. The SJW is strong with this one.

    He can't even acknowledge that non-Whites with status don't want what he has to offer. So he has to blame Whites. Maybe in the 1980s you could claim if Whites did not want to work, then you needed immigrants. But in 2019 America about half of those 20 and under are non-White. This means when a-holes like Ellison bitch about not being able to find "Americans" willing to work, it's just as likely they are non-White as White. But guys like him will still imply it's lazy White folk that are the problem.


    Ellison said he had come to see his hardworking men more as family than employees. And he called them vital contributors to the local economy.
     
    Why doesn't Mr. Ellison move to Mexico and take his business there? He would have an uninterruptible supply of labor.

    Nice pivot Mr. Ellison.

    Funny surname, Ellison. Every Ellison I’ve known IRL was of the Tribe.
    As is one of the richest men in the world:

    The only other Ellison I can think of was Ralph,
    who was definitely from a different tribe.

    • Replies: @Bragadocious
    I thought of that too and my mind immediately went to Harlan Ellison -- Talmudic sci-fi writer and provocateur of Frank Sinatra. Here he is mocking the goys on the old Tom Snyder show.

    https://youtu.be/8Fydwqu7M2w
  54. @Wilkey

    In years past, many workers who previously had been admitted to the U.S. under the H-2B program were excluded from the annual quota of 66,000 visas.
     
    So I guess this means that the number of guestworkers grows by 66,000 each year - 66,000 in Year One, 132,000 in Year Two, 198,000 in Year Three, ad nauseum.

    He’s in desperation mode now, trying recruiting tactics like setting up a table with brochures and a banner in a Tucson suburb, looking for green card holders who might want to switch jobs.
     
    So no effort whatsoever to recruit low-skilled American workers in, say, Kentucky. I guess when he tries recruiting in Kentucky we'll know that he's really desperate.

    But now, few ski bums and college-aged young people are willing to toil in all conditions under the Colorado sun, he said.
     
    In jobs like the ones he's offering recruitment is often done by word-of-mouth - one employee tells a brother or friend, and so on. All the mouths are now Spanish-speaking. And Americans got the message a long time ago that we aren't wanted for these jobs, and that even if we are wanted we will soon be replaced once border security loosens up.

    Chris Romer, president and CEO of the Vail Valley Partnership, says a key question is: “What impact does that low unemployment level and the inability to bring employees into businesses have on our business growth and on our economic development as a community?” He said a recent workforce study by the chamber found that 75% of local businesses want to grow but are having a hard time doing so. And more than 60% of businesses have open positions but can’t fill the jobs.
     
    The median home price in Eagle County, Colorado is $734,000. You know what would help businesses in Vail grow using American labor? Affordable homes. I'm sure they'll get right on it. All those SWPLs in Vail are just dying to live next to 2,000 sq foot modular homes with mechanics and landscapers as their neighbors - and English speaking ones they'd actually have to talk to. The help is supposed to be seen and not heard.

    “We’re still employing the (administrative) core, who’s willing to go behind the computer and manage. We’ve got plenty of that — brilliant people. But to find laborers … ” Ellison said.
     
    Sounds like he needs to pay the administrative core less and the laborers more. Who are they administering, anyhow, if they can't get workers.

    Ellison says legal work visas, including temporary ones, have been lumped in with the dirty word of immigration in D.C., even though by law his workers return home each season.
     
    I'm sure they never manage to get their girlfriends or wives (or both) to squeeze out an anchor baby or three while they're here. Never.

    “So that is a myth,” said Jennifer Law, a human resources director for Vail Resorts. “We spend a lot of time and money with attorneys to make sure that we dot our I’s and cross our T’s … because it’s an arduous process. Also, the Department of Labor actually sets the rates which we have to pay the workers, so we know what the cost is going into it, and that doesn’t necessarily save us any money either.”
     
    I'm sure every T is dotted and every I is crossed.

    Do you know how you can tell the H-2B program saves them money? Because they can't find Americans to work at the wages they're offering.


    Gary Woodworth, president and CEO of the Gallegos Corp. masonry and construction company in Wolcott, has been using H-2B visas for two decades — depending on temporary workers during the short building season in the Colorado mountains.
     
    Do you know who use to do a lot of seasonal work in this country? High school and college students. Do you suppose that a big part of the problem with the Snowflake Generation is that a decreasing number of them have ever done real work?

    “Because [comprehensive immigration reform] failed twice (in 2006 and 2013), and I don’t think it works. We really need to kind of take a step back and do disparate legislation for specific issues.”
     
    Finally, someone on the open borders side acknowledging that "comprehensive reform" is a joke.

    Unlike you growing up in 1910, great-grandpa, 1. Kids are required to go to school, and that gets enforced. 2. OHSA has banned high school kids from a lot of jobs. Even in farming, there are a lot of jobs kids can’t do unless they’re part of your family.

    • Replies: @Bill P
    True about OSHA. I recently looked at youth labor laws (my oldest is getting to that age) and a lot of the stuff I did in the 90s as a teen is now banned. Pretty much any powered machinery is off the table, as is driving.
    , @Autochthon
    What a goofy attempt at a zinger.

    1. The kids he mentioned are teens and young adults in high schools and colleges; high schools have work release programmes, and college-classes can be scheduled very flexibly. In both cases, weekends are unaffected by school.

    2. Not a lot of landscaping in the Rocky Mountains gets done except in summer, when classes are out; in fact, virtually none does. (You do know where Vail is, don't you? Check its average monthly snowfall and temperatures sometime.)

    3. OSHA haven't banned work with shovels and picks nor carrying pavers and such for teens. (OSHA haven't banned anything in particular for anyone over eighteen – most all college students), which is what most of the relevant work calls for. What, you think Paco and Taco the Guatelexicans are operating back-hoes or they are licensed landscape architects for old man Ellison?
    , @Ibound1
    yep. I picked tomatoes as a teenager and was paid by the weight. No way that would be legal now - hell - Im not 100% sure it was legal then but no plaintiff’s lawyers or Mexicans were around. So we all did it.
  55. @Sextus Empiricus
    “A man should never wear shorts unless he is exercising or at the beach.”

    I wouldn’t even accept those exceptions. Shorts are for children under 6 and young women with very nice legs, period.

    You people definitely don’t live in the hot, humid part of the country.
    Which is actually a whole lot of the country.

  56. @rexl
    A union carpenter in San Diego, CA. takes home, cash, $39 per hour, not counting all the benefits, etc. Perhaps, landscapers could be had for forty or fifty dollars an hour, cash, and then the benefits on top, why not?

    Roofers here in Florida make a third of that. Hell as an experienced field engineer I don’t make near that!

    • Replies: @Logan
    Few types of work more unpleasant than being a roofer in Florida, where I live.

    In re OSHA: I'm constantly amused while driving around and seeing roofers at work. 95% of the jobs are not using proper fall protection. Probably because it's very difficult indeed to do your job while using it.
  57. @anon
    >toil in all conditions under the Colorado sun

    Low-humidity Vail, CO gets above 80 degrees once in the next week. It's real rough working up there in the mountains.

    Quite right. This ain’t the Central Valley of CA. Vail in the summer is really, really nice.

    • Replies: @Forbes
    Yup. all of low-humidity Colorado is nice in the summer. Next to perhaps San Diego, I think CO has the nicest weather in the country--just stay out of the Rockies if you prefer to avoid snow--Denver gets very little (though what comes is in a storm).
  58. @Mr. Blank
    Toiling under “the Colorado sun,” huh?

    *facepalm*

    I find it really hard to believe that today’s college students are more lazy and spoiled than I was back in the day, yet every summer the golf courses and landscape firms back in Alabama — I see your “Colorado sun” and raise you — had plenty of college boys willing to bust their asses all week for weekend beer money.

    I’m not even gonna lie and say “kids these days” are too lazy, because we were lazy as hell. You know what got us off our lazy asses? Money.

    And don’t even give me the crap about “Mexicans do a better job, tho.” No they don’t. I’ve seen it with my own eyes. They’re not better — just cheaper.

    The kids haven’t gotten lazier. The businesses have just gotten cheaper...just like everybody else in America. Hell, consumers these days have been trained to accept cheap, crappy, disposable products everywhere — is it any surprise businesses feel the same way about labor?

    I have a good friend in Houston. Mexican ancestry but raised in a North TX Anglo town. Looks very, very mestizo. Learned to speak Spanish as a adult and has an atrocious Anglo accent. Confuses the hell out of people. LOL

    According to him, Anglos are physically lazy and Mexicans are intellectually lazy.

  59. “For the most part, we, as Americans, have grown soft…But the people down in Mexico, they’d love it, and it works for them.”

    Ladies and Gentlemen, your GOP elite in 2019. This is why Trump’s immigration agenda is doomed even if he wins another term.

  60. Colorado has legal pot now. Do these guys drug test? Are there any white boys who can pass one?

  61. @Anon
    Of course he has to raise prices, but I cannot believe that there is no pay level at which he cannot find kids in their early 20s who wouldn't do this. Throw some crane truck, mini back hoe, and chainsaw time into the mix, and the boys will come.

    I had exactly this kind of work done on my property in Japan, took six weeks, two guys, father and son, several tons of rocks blocking my driveway during construction. Cedar and pine wood, chop saws, for deck and fencing. Masonry sledges and chisels. Rootballing a dozen small trees by hand. It takes muscle and it takes brains. Water drainage needs to be considered. Laser levels. Building a walkway path out of rocks of different depths with no concrete, but completely solid, no wobble.

    In Japan guys who do this kind of work are masculine, sexy, dress in cool traditional work clothes, have hot wives and enough kids that at least one boy will end up working with dad.

    My guy does competitive speed tree climbing with spike boots as a hobby.

    The Colorado guy just wants underpaid slave labor who won't give him any lip.

    Of course he has to raise prices, but I cannot believe that there is no pay level at which he cannot find kids in their early 20s who wouldn’t do this. Throw some crane truck, mini back hoe, and chainsaw time into the mix, and the boys will come.

    I made good money as a teen doing the neighbourhood lawns and gardens, but everyone seems to want to be an InstaGram Influencer while they go to School to become the person who runs the company that will pluck their highly qualified bottoms from debt peonage.

  62. I remember thinking in the 90s that people who put water features in their yards were decadent. Now I guess you have to have the water feature and your very own Mexican slave.

    • Replies: @Mr. Anon

    I remember thinking in the 90s that people who put water features in their yards were decadent. Now I guess you have to have the water feature and your very own Mexican slave.
     
    There was only one such installation I was aware of in my neighborhood back in the 70s/80s. It was prominently displayed in the front yard of a house that sat at the confluence of two streets, so it was quite noticeable. A small pond with a statue of a cherub peeing into it - you know - real tasteful.
    , @George
    But the Mexican slave is treated like family!

    "Ellison said he had come to see his hardworking men more as family than employees. "

    The water feature including design, maintenance, and installation was likely done by genuine US of Americans. Cleaning it probably Mexican slaves. It is possible that the Americans in the water feature business wouldn't have their jobs if there was no cheap way to clean it.
  63. He’s in desperation mode now, trying recruiting tactics like offering higher wages to attract Americans

    Ha ha, only joking fellas.

  64. @Redneck farmer
    Unlike you growing up in 1910, great-grandpa, 1. Kids are required to go to school, and that gets enforced. 2. OHSA has banned high school kids from a lot of jobs. Even in farming, there are a lot of jobs kids can't do unless they're part of your family.

    True about OSHA. I recently looked at youth labor laws (my oldest is getting to that age) and a lot of the stuff I did in the 90s as a teen is now banned. Pretty much any powered machinery is off the table, as is driving.

    • Agree: Desiderius
  65. This is a result of the welfare state.

    If free market job pay drops below welfare levels, the job doesn’t get done. I’ve specifically seen this happen with marriage — welfare stops it, since the husband, if blue collar, doesn’t really make as much as welfare pays when he’s young.

    Getting the job done thus (as in several historical welfare states) involves use of slaves — Mexicans in the case mentioned – who are not citizens and have no welfare to collect. Eventually, the slaves become citizens (happens every time) and the process either repeats with new slave groups or the welfare system goes away or, of course, both.

    Something similar can happen (and did) without welfare. During the Gilded Age in the USA the business class thought of the immigrant stream as the source of their wealth, a Golden Stream (classic account by I.P. Daily, as I recall), with essentially no political rights on a State or National level — artificial slaves. The descendants of the slaves took out the descendants of the upper classes (Wilson’s election).

    So very very obvious, but systems don’t think, nor do the systems people inside them. Under a sociobiology approach, systems are the background of an evolutionary game, and what counts is having an evolutionary stable strategy (ESS) that ensures survival and offspring (on average). Business people who think beyond P&L tend not to last, nor do politicians who think beyond the next election. Not always true, but that’s the way to bet. If this ESS drives the entire species (and its associated system) into extinction, well, then, the system goes to extinction.

    What the West has done so far is to use system failure as an occasion for inventing a new (and improved in that it survives) system Last time around was the 1930s and WW II, which (in practice) spread Fascism worldwide (e.g. Antifa,which is classic Fascist street fighting). That’s what we’re looking at. The 1930s Fascist model is played out (see debates yesterday and today, 2019-06-27, 2 day windos).

    The new system will either not make holding a job a cause of infertility or it won’t have jobs. No jobs is possible under systems like subsistence farming, which was the system in much of Mexico before NAFTA made it uneconomic.

    Counterinsurgency

    • Replies: @Anonymous

    The new system will either not make holding a job a cause of infertility or it won’t have jobs. No jobs is possible under systems like subsistence farming, which was the system in much of Mexico before NAFTA made it uneconomic.
     
    Subsistence farming is a horrible way of life.
  66. @AnotherDad
    Beyond the silly squawking of this greedy parasite, and the obvious point that Richy Rich can pay the market rate for American stoop labor if he wants his fancy water feature...

    “For the most part, we, as Americans, have grown soft. We don’t like to go out there and work like that,”
     
    I will say that all these stories bring home the point that relying on foreign cheap labor does erode the national character in a way reminiscent of welfare.

    A nation, like a person, degrades in character when they shirk work.

    Anyone who doesn’t mow their own lawn, or have the kids do it is an a-hole. Those who get their wife to do it are the real patriots.

    • Agree: Autochthon
    • LOL: AnotherDad
  67. The idea that “Americans won’t do such work” has an element of truth to it.

    Certainly a great many middle to upper class types grow up in a world in which the idea of doing “menial” work, even part-time or in the summer, is quite literally unthinkable.

    It’s almost like when I was growing up in Kansas City quite a few decades ago. In the white blue-collar area I grew up in the populace was culturally split. Something like half were culturally southern and half culturally midwestern, with my family firmly in the midwestern camp.

    For the southern group, some types of work would cause you to “lose caste,” as such work was “n***** work” no self-respecting white man would do. I, OTOH, was very much taught that any honest work is by definition honorable.

    The two groups generally talked past each other with total mutual incomprehension.

  68. @Dtbb
    Roofers here in Florida make a third of that. Hell as an experienced field engineer I don't make near that!

    Few types of work more unpleasant than being a roofer in Florida, where I live.

    In re OSHA: I’m constantly amused while driving around and seeing roofers at work. 95% of the jobs are not using proper fall protection. Probably because it’s very difficult indeed to do your job while using it.

  69. @Clifford Brown
    A man should never wear shorts unless he is exercising or at the beach.
  70. I worked in landscaping in Colorado in the 90s and there are plenty of hippies and rednecks who are willing to do that kind of work. I applied for several jobs where it was made clear that they weren’t hiring non-Hispanics no matter how low the pay. Some of the clients prefer having whites do the work. They treat you like a blacksmith at colonial Williamsburg or something, but many just want the crews of mestizo helots to come and do their thing and quietly leave without any sort of human interaction.
    Cheap foreign labor doesn’t fill any vital role in the economy. It allows the upper crust to live like rich people in the rest of the world, with armies of docile servants creating their McMansions and elaborate landscaping. It’s especially absurd to see this in a fragile unsustainable environment like the Colorado Rockies. Maybe these folk, who I’m sure are handwringing about climate change, should take some of their precious open space and build barracks for their helots.

    • Replies: @Daniel H
    I applied for several jobs where it was made clear that they weren’t hiring non-Hispanics no matter how low the pay.

    My hunch, this is very common out there. Americans being discriminated against - in their own country - because of their nationality. I wish we had documentation that could prove this.

    And as difficult as it is for blue collar whites to compete with Mexicans it is much worse for Black Americans. What a sick country we are. Or more correctly, we are not a country. The American nation is dead.
    , @Dieter Kief
    Very interesting. Thanks for posting this stuff!
  71. @FrmColo
    Long time Colorado resident who left recently because I could no longer stand California East. Avid skier for 30 years in the Colorado mountains.

    Ellison has a point. The ski bum culture has basically been dead for 10-15 years. In the '70s, '80s, and for part of the '90s much of the labor required to operate the ski industry was supplied by ski bums who lived year-round in the mountains and were available for summer work. That started changing in the '90s, when the ski industry became much more corporate, lift prices rose dramatically, and mountain real estate went crazy. It became impossible to survive as a ski bum.

    Much of the unskilled labor in ski towns is now provided by H2B visa holders that corporate resorts bring in from Mexico, Eastern Europe, and even Russia. Most stay for ski season and then go home in the summer, so there's a real labor shortage in the mountains during the summer. It's mildly ironic that in some ways Ellison is, himself, a victim of the H2B visa program that he relies upon for his own business.

    There are ski bums out there, but they are fewer and farther between these days.

    Transient van living and couch surfing are basically the only cheap lodging options in most mountain towns.

    I think lift ticket sharing is still fairly easily done. Even with the modernized ticketing systems they never check your ID versus the name on the ticket unless you are violating resort policies or the law.

    Then again, a lot of the guys who would have been ski bums in the past are just skiing the backcountry where none of the annoying resort bureaucracy exists.

  72. @AnotherDad
    Beyond the silly squawking of this greedy parasite, and the obvious point that Richy Rich can pay the market rate for American stoop labor if he wants his fancy water feature...

    “For the most part, we, as Americans, have grown soft. We don’t like to go out there and work like that,”
     
    I will say that all these stories bring home the point that relying on foreign cheap labor does erode the national character in a way reminiscent of welfare.

    A nation, like a person, degrades in character when they shirk work.

    Maybe they don’t want to do it for minimum wage? How much did they get in the 1980s, when apparently Americans would do such work, and how did that compare against the then cost of living in Colorado?

    • Replies: @AnotherDad

    Maybe they don’t want to do it for minimum wage? How much did they get in the 1980s, when apparently Americans would do such work, and how did that compare against the then cost of living in Colorado?
     
    No argument.

    I'm definitely not saying Americans not wanting to do stoop labor for Mexican wages is the problem. It's not. (I'm not going to do stoop labor for Mexican wages either.)

    The problem is the cheap-labor stooges and the politicians/bureaucrats who have refused to enforce the border and employment eligibility and waved in masses of immigrants--effectively pushing up the labor supply, pushing down the price.

    Fix that and wages will rise and you'll see Americans doing all the labor America needs.
  73. And forget about finding naturalized American citizens to do the backbreaking outdoor work …

    … and just what the hell is that supposed to imply? It reads as if anyone else but unnaturalized immigrants, i.e, the illegal sub-documented aliens, must be a naturalized citizen. How about people who are native Americans, as in, they were born here?

    Did anyone else catch that? (I’ll admit that I haven’t read the thread yet. Slowwww dowwwnnn, Steve). Really, is this just a way to imply we are all a nation of (recent) immigrants? It’s a weird thing to write.

  74. @Alden
    I’d like to know exactly which high school had rich WASPs and jews, Indians of various kinds, Tamils Hispanics and blacks all in the same school at the same time. And no non Jewish Whites who were German Slavic Italian Irish etc.

    And exactly how did her immigrant mother figure it all out? How many Jewish men marry Indians anyway? How many Hindu immigrants let their daughters marry out of their own caste, let alone American Jews?

    On the other hand American Jewish men don’t demand dowries for the arduous duty of marrying a woman.

    I’m too cynical and skeptical.

    Sort of a silly argument to rebut, but I went to a rich kids’ public high school (at the other end of Ohio from this fictional character’s school, but still…) that wasn’t all that large but had all of those sorts of people–except “Indians of various kinds,” which don’t feature in the passage I quoted from the book either. As far as I knew, there were just a few Indians or whatever.

    There weren’t ethnic whites who identified as such at all. Any white tribalism had been dissolved in money.

    As far as the intermarriage of Jew and Indian, the attendant difficulties are discussed early and often in the novel, which is part of what makes it so Sailerian. Short account: he’s a Princeton hedgie, she’s a Yalie lawyer, they met at a Manhattan rooftop party for the 120th anniversary of Vogue or whatever, having at least partly transformed themselves into free-floating Cosmopolites of the New Order. And God knows I’ve met plenty of people like that.

    I would suggest that–while I’m sure the book isn’t flawless–Gary Shteyngart is a lot smarter than you imagine him to be.

  75. @Mr McKenna
    Exactly. And after several years in the USA, they're just like the natives, only dumber, poorer, and angrier. Oddly enough, they also get used to freebies, which our candidates are now explicitly promising to every single person in the world who manages to set foot on our side of the Rio Grande (or JFK tarmac).

    Glen Ellison, a landscape contractor in Eagle, sponsored 35 workers, many from one city in Mexico
     
    35 workers, that must mean about 200 more Mexicans now (not mentioned in the article) many of which are anchor babies of one kind or another, and many of which (being from the same village) are probably marrying cousins or half-siblings, meaning that their collective IQ is under yet another kind of assault.

    No matter, when these go stale we'll just import the next 'tranche' of desperadoes.

    …we’ll just import the next ‘tranche’ of desperadoes.

    The numbers here are interesting. The article mentions a quota of 66,000, with some exemptions above that. Migrant labor groups count workers in the hundred thousands.

    But we import 1.5 million or so a year. What is the career length of a Vail landscape laborer? Twenty years? What percentage of immigrants work a contributing job? It seems that we are mining a scarce mineral: for every worker, we import another 99 who do little.

    • Agree: HammerJack
  76. So hire your wage slave peons but when they get cushy benefits they quit being slaves and I’m supposed to feel sorry for him?

  77. @KunioKun
    I remember thinking in the 90s that people who put water features in their yards were decadent. Now I guess you have to have the water feature and your very own Mexican slave.

    I remember thinking in the 90s that people who put water features in their yards were decadent. Now I guess you have to have the water feature and your very own Mexican slave.

    There was only one such installation I was aware of in my neighborhood back in the 70s/80s. It was prominently displayed in the front yard of a house that sat at the confluence of two streets, so it was quite noticeable. A small pond with a statue of a cherub peeing into it – you know – real tasteful.

  78. @Buzz Mohawk
    Gee this is funny. Earlier this evening, I finished sanding and painting the deck in the back of my house, and now I'm reading this article. I'm approximately Steve's age, and I worked a summer doing landscaping in Colorado when I was in college -- back in those 1980s Mr. Ellison talks about. I did it for the money, working for a guy like him. I paint my own deck now, do my own landscaping ("and do the other things, not because they are easy but because they are hard." JFK, Rice University Speech, 1962) no, because I'd rather keep my money than give it to Mexicans or guys like Ellison (The one I worked for was a prick).

    Maybe it's only older Americans who enjoy doing outdoor work now. If college students in Colorado don't want to get some exercise outside in the mountains (and make money!) then why the hell are they there in the first place?

    What a pussy country it is now.

    PS: People with elaborate landscaping and "water features" in dry Colorado are dipshits. I grew up in a custom house in that same general area. Hardly anybody needed landscaping, nor wanted it, because the land was so beautiful. That was the whole point of being there.

    If college students in Colorado don’t want to get some exercise outside in the mountains (and make money!) then why the hell are they there in the first place?

    It might have something to do with legalized marijuana.

  79. @KunioKun
    I remember thinking in the 90s that people who put water features in their yards were decadent. Now I guess you have to have the water feature and your very own Mexican slave.

    But the Mexican slave is treated like family!

    “Ellison said he had come to see his hardworking men more as family than employees. ”

    The water feature including design, maintenance, and installation was likely done by genuine US of Americans. Cleaning it probably Mexican slaves. It is possible that the Americans in the water feature business wouldn’t have their jobs if there was no cheap way to clean it.

  80. @Alden
    I’d like to know exactly which high school had rich WASPs and jews, Indians of various kinds, Tamils Hispanics and blacks all in the same school at the same time. And no non Jewish Whites who were German Slavic Italian Irish etc.

    And exactly how did her immigrant mother figure it all out? How many Jewish men marry Indians anyway? How many Hindu immigrants let their daughters marry out of their own caste, let alone American Jews?

    On the other hand American Jewish men don’t demand dowries for the arduous duty of marrying a woman.

    I’m too cynical and skeptical.

    Stuyvesant High School, where Shteyngart went, was about 55% Asian at the time. About 5-10% NAM, mostly Caribbean. The other 40% was distributed among Jewish kids, second-generations from Eastern Europe, old money WASPs living in Manhattan (not a good place to raise your 14 year old daughter in the Guiliani era).

  81. Hire Americans.Then he can enrich American communities.

  82. @Hypnotoad666
    One thing i find odd about Mexican workers, is that they never wear shorts when working outside. They'll be roofing some house in 110 degree weather, wearing jeans and a flannel shirt.

    I guess it's a cultural thing, or maybe they have better heat tolerance.

    Construction work requires clothing that more or less covers one’s body. In my late twenties and early thirties I worked on a pile driving crew, during some extremely hot New England summers. The work was usually eight to four with a half hour lunch break at noon. Everyone on the crew worked wearing a heavy, long sleeved shirt, heavy pants, thick gloves, a metal hard hat, and boots. We all did this even though the work was strenuous, the temperatures often reached 100 degrees, and the humidity could be what is usually described as oppressive.

    The reasons are obvious if one has any familiarity with this kind of work. Boiling hot creosote vapor was constantly sprayed off the piles when the hammer hit. It could burn off layers of skin if one was not protected. Handling thick rope and cable raised a constant threat of rope burns. Objects occasionally fell or were flung by machinery into areas where we might be working. Finally, there was a constant risk of falls, scrapes, and bruises that might have been serious had we all not been fully covered.

    I was the youngest guy on this crew. Most were in their forties and fifties, but a couple were pushing seventy or more. All had raised families on the money they earned in construction. All were native-born Americans of European descent except one, a Canadian of Irish descent. The pay and benefits were good, enough to raise a family on. The owner/operator of the rig really did treat his regular workers like they were close friends or family.

    Now, with unemployment rampant among the native-born, unskilled laborers in the same area where I once worked and still live today, I see cheap Indio, immigrant labor, none of whom have enough English to be able to work safe+ly and do the work properly doing jobs that native-born workers should be doing. The only reason is to squeeze out a few bucks more profit for the owners or save filthy rich pigs money building their crappy McMansions.

    No mention of any of this in the debates though. Trump has proven nothing more than a blowhard liar. The presidency is up for grabs to anyone who demonstrates real concern for the working people of this country. But apparently the political class and establishment of this country are incapable of producing such a person. All we can look forward to is either a slow decline into decay, corruption, and tyraany or a catastrophic and violent collapse. I’d prefer the latter.

    • Agree: Liza
    • Replies: @Precious
    No mention of any of this in the debates though. Trump has proven nothing more than a blowhard liar.

    You are saying this just after Nancy Pelosi gave in to Trump and passed the border funding he needed. Mexico is also now guarding the border for us with their military and stopping new caravans. And they are paying for it themselves.

    Next step is for him to fix the asylum rules which the illegals and Democrats have been exploiting and get more of the border wall constructed.
    , @Desiderius
    You pay a grown American man with a family or seeking one $25/hr and he won’t stay unskilled for long.
  83. @Hypnotoad666

    He’s in desperation mode now, trying recruiting tactics like setting up a table with brochures and a banner in a Tucson suburb, looking for green card holders who might want to switch jobs.
     
    I guess no one told this guy that he can just go down to Home Depot with a pickup and get all the day laborers he needs.

    If he's really too law abiding and conscientious to do this, then I would feel slightly bad for him and his workers. I mean, given that the border is wide open to illegals it seems pointless to make it difficult for the one man in America who is trying to hire legally.

    But my guess is that the reporter just ignored the fact that he will now just hire illegals because that wouldn't serve the Narrative.

    I guess no one told this guy that he can just go down to Home Depot with a pickup and get all the day laborers he needs.

    As a business owner he be crucified if the Colorado Dept of Labor caught wind of this.

    • Replies: @Jim Don Bob

    As a business owner he be crucified if the Colorado Dept of Labor caught wind of this.
     
    On the very off chance that they were looking perhaps. This happens every day here in the Peoples' Republic and no one blinks an eye.
  84. @Hypnotoad666
    One thing i find odd about Mexican workers, is that they never wear shorts when working outside. They'll be roofing some house in 110 degree weather, wearing jeans and a flannel shirt.

    I guess it's a cultural thing, or maybe they have better heat tolerance.

    The Mexican concrete guys (many of those I see anyway) will wear shorts!

  85. @Redneck farmer
    Unlike you growing up in 1910, great-grandpa, 1. Kids are required to go to school, and that gets enforced. 2. OHSA has banned high school kids from a lot of jobs. Even in farming, there are a lot of jobs kids can't do unless they're part of your family.

    What a goofy attempt at a zinger.

    1. The kids he mentioned are teens and young adults in high schools and colleges; high schools have work release programmes, and college-classes can be scheduled very flexibly. In both cases, weekends are unaffected by school.

    2. Not a lot of landscaping in the Rocky Mountains gets done except in summer, when classes are out; in fact, virtually none does. (You do know where Vail is, don’t you? Check its average monthly snowfall and temperatures sometime.)

    3. OSHA haven’t banned work with shovels and picks nor carrying pavers and such for teens. (OSHA haven’t banned anything in particular for anyone over eighteen – most all college students), which is what most of the relevant work calls for. What, you think Paco and Taco the Guatelexicans are operating back-hoes or they are licensed landscape architects for old man Ellison?

  86. Anon[314] • Disclaimer says:

    This story sound like it’s the story of a reverse Nazi. Why would you advertise to “green card holders”? They have the same work rights and obligations as the citizens. Income taxes, Social Security, unemployment benefits, Medicare are all the same. If the salary is inadequate for a citizen, it’s as inadequate for a green card holder, but now you are limiting yourself to 2% of the job market.

  87. @Mr. Blank
    Toiling under “the Colorado sun,” huh?

    *facepalm*

    I find it really hard to believe that today’s college students are more lazy and spoiled than I was back in the day, yet every summer the golf courses and landscape firms back in Alabama — I see your “Colorado sun” and raise you — had plenty of college boys willing to bust their asses all week for weekend beer money.

    I’m not even gonna lie and say “kids these days” are too lazy, because we were lazy as hell. You know what got us off our lazy asses? Money.

    And don’t even give me the crap about “Mexicans do a better job, tho.” No they don’t. I’ve seen it with my own eyes. They’re not better — just cheaper.

    The kids haven’t gotten lazier. The businesses have just gotten cheaper...just like everybody else in America. Hell, consumers these days have been trained to accept cheap, crappy, disposable products everywhere — is it any surprise businesses feel the same way about labor?

    I would say some college students are lazier and some don’t want to do manual labor at all. Part of that is understandable, those that want/need to work feel like they need to get experience in the field they are pursuing, which is not going to be landscaping or golf course mowing. Another problem is their summer break doesn’t match up well with the employer’s season. The employer needs someone from April to October/early November. The college student may be available from the first week of June until the last week of August. Plus he also wants a week off to go to a friend’s wedding and another to take a vacation.

    Here is ad run nationally by a landscaper in Vail to meet the advertising requirements for H-2B visa eligibility. He is offering $17.50 an hour, with OT possibilities, a per diem and a bonus if they stay until the end of the season. For a man in his 20s who did not pursue any education beyond high school this is a good job that pays enough for him to support himself. He could do this in the summer and work at a ski resort in the winter and make around $40k. That is not a good long term plan, but could help some of these young men fill in a gap while they figure out what kind of career to pursue.

    The average unskilled working class American is simply not a good employee. Glossing over or ignoring the general lack of work ethic and reliability in this group is not going to solve this problem. This is a symptom of societal decline, there is no longer a force on the lower levels of the working class to keep them putting in a honest day’s work to meet their basic needs. I oppose bringing in foreign workers by the thousands, but as a society we have to find a way to enforce some basic standards among the unskilled labor class if we want that to change. Especially considering the children of the unskilled foreign workers are going to regress to that mean rather than become doctors and lawyers like the left wants us to believe.

    https://g.co/kgs/rf8RRr

  88. @Mr. Anon

    “For the most part, we, as Americans, have grown soft. We don’t like to go out there and work like that,” he said. “The idea behind work today is using enhancers and get to the fitness center. But the idea of putting callouses on your fingers and doing a hard day’s worth of work, not just today but tomorrow and next week and next month, man, that’s something from the past.
     
    America doesn't seem to have any shortage of guys who are willing to walk around under the hot sun in Afghanistan or Iraq, carrying a bunch of gear and risking getting killed. Maybe Ellison hasn't looked hard enough. Does he even try to recruit American workers?

    Perhaps there just isn't any place in America anymore for contractors like Mr. Ellison who hire foreign coolie labor. Maybe he should find a new line of work.

    Exactly. Young American (mostly white) men populate the Army and Marine Corps infantry. They do so voluntarily. It’s a lot harder than doing landscaping in Colorado plus you can get killed in Iraq or Afganistan, etc.

    White Americans can do this landscaping work and would do it but you have to pay them a lot. It’s true you’re not going to get ski bums or trust fund kids to do it. But men will come from all over the country if you pay enough. Men have always gone and moved to all kinds of middle of nowhere crappy places for good money. Think of gold rushes, the shale oil boom, and fishing boats in Alaska. They sure as hell would go to Vail.

  89. @Redneck farmer
    Unlike you growing up in 1910, great-grandpa, 1. Kids are required to go to school, and that gets enforced. 2. OHSA has banned high school kids from a lot of jobs. Even in farming, there are a lot of jobs kids can't do unless they're part of your family.

    yep. I picked tomatoes as a teenager and was paid by the weight. No way that would be legal now – hell – Im not 100% sure it was legal then but no plaintiff’s lawyers or Mexicans were around. So we all did it.

    • Replies: @obwandiyag
    Yeah, right. I bet you picked tomatoes farmworker-style. More internet lying.
  90. @AnotherDad
    Beyond the silly squawking of this greedy parasite, and the obvious point that Richy Rich can pay the market rate for American stoop labor if he wants his fancy water feature...

    “For the most part, we, as Americans, have grown soft. We don’t like to go out there and work like that,”
     
    I will say that all these stories bring home the point that relying on foreign cheap labor does erode the national character in a way reminiscent of welfare.

    A nation, like a person, degrades in character when they shirk work.

    It’s not the character of the shirkers (sic) that is the problem, it’s that of Ellison and his masters.

  91. @Wilkey

    But now, few ski bums and college-aged young people are willing to toil in all conditions under the Colorado sun, he said.
     
    Average July high temperature in Vail, Colorado: 77 degrees.

    Funny. The average July high in my city is in the 90s, but there appears to be no shortage of landscaping labor.

    The fact is that Vail is just too damn expensive for landscaping workers to buy a home in, or even rent in, and there aren't any big cities very close by. Denver is almost two hours away, and I've heard that drive is a bitch in the winter. You need to either pay them enough to make it worth the longer commute, or you need housing they can afford to buy.

    This is the problem with our immigration policy, and with allowing the economy to develop around the assumption of unlimited cheap labor. If the guestworker plan hadn't been in existence all these years then the people building these homes would have been taking into account the need for American labor all along. Now you have these wild fluctuations based on the whims of Congress and the White House.

    Vail needs to be weened off its addiction to foreign labor, and there's no time better than the present to start.

    Not directly familiar with Vail, but Aspen is a somewhat similar community. A couple of decades ago the road west out of Aspen had enormous traffic jams morning and evening as the worker bees commuted to and from their trailers and hovels some distance down the valley.

  92. @Reg Cæsar

    “For the most part, we, as Americans, have grown [cheap]. We don’t like to go out there and [pay] like that,” he said.
     

    Ellison’s business has been subsidized for “nearly 20 years” using imported, temporary (seasonal H-2B visa) labor paid at wages below what the market would demand.

    I can only imagine the horrid housing arrangements for these imported seasonal workers–in contrast to the million dollar vacation home market on which Ellison’s subsidy-based business was built. It can be quite startling to come across slum-like housing conditions nearby mountain resort communities.

    Had he paid market wages, he could’ve created his own supply network of American workers, as winter resort seasonal workers need off-season summer work.

  93. @anon
    >toil in all conditions under the Colorado sun

    Low-humidity Vail, CO gets above 80 degrees once in the next week. It's real rough working up there in the mountains.

    Vail in the summer is quite nice. Labor-intensive work is a little different though at 8,200 feet (at the bottom of the valley).

    An ex-girlfriend’s father built a house mansion in Edwards (Beaver Creek), on the Cordillera Summit at 10,000+ feet. Hotter than the valley during the day, cooler at night. O2 at those altitudes gets a little thin.

  94. @Hypnotoad666
    One thing i find odd about Mexican workers, is that they never wear shorts when working outside. They'll be roofing some house in 110 degree weather, wearing jeans and a flannel shirt.

    I guess it's a cultural thing, or maybe they have better heat tolerance.

    It really is amazing that people are so divorced from physical labor that comments like this can get written. It has to mean you (and the many other comments displaying utter cluelessness) literally don’t even know someone that works outside.

    The idea that there is an army of willing American born labor at the right price is also completey untrue. The lower reaches of US society are fully welfare integrated and wont work for more than a few hours. Price does not matter. I have paid way above market in a major metro to test this (at scale too – not random jobs). In non metro areas workers simply do not exist with current conditions.

    The middle class and above have no idea the extent of welfare in this country. It is a genuine career for the bottom part of society.

    You can make the immigration restrictionist argument without saying things that are untrue.

    • Replies: @Jus' Sayin'...
    My father owned and ran a construction business. He worked alongside his men and many of them had worked with him for decades and were as much friends, and almost family, as employees. This was Massachusetts, so he had to be union, but he stopped bidding on union work after some union idiot nearly cost him his life and livelihood by insisting that a union work rule prevented the idiot from coming to my father's aid during a life-and-death situation. Despite this, my father paid above-union wages and provided better benefits, paid holidays and vacation, etc.

    He was an old-fashioned New Deal Democrat and in the 1950s experimented with employing Negro workers. His other employees were fine with this but the experiment didn't work. The Negroes had zero necessary job skills, e.g., the ability to determine what knots were needed in particular situations and how to tie them, the cognitive ability to autonomously figure out where they needed to give a hand, and the like. Beyond this they slacked off at every opportunity, failed to show up on time, always had excuses for leaving off work at inconvenient times, and often just failed to show up. Eventually my father gave up his noble experiment. It could actually have endangered other peoples' lives.

    Up until the end of the 1970s, when an employee retired or left his employment for some other reason, he had no trouble finding willing workers. They were all native-born and of European descent. After that it became harder and harder to find reliable employees whom he could trust. The last straw was a forty-something White, who in the early 1980s had been kicked off welfare and begged him for a job. The guy lasted half a day before whining that he couldn't handle the work. At that time my father was in his late sixties and the two other workers were pushing fifty.

    My father basically wound up working with one guy in his late thirties whom he could trust. Ocassionally he would hire supplementary help or ask me and my brothers, or friends for help. My father became good friends with his trusted employee. The guy was a real go-getter and ran a construction firm of his own on the side. He'd worked his way up from a tough life. Ultimately, when my father could no longer work - in his late 70s, early 80s - he sold the business and the right to operate it under the old family name to his trusted employee/friend.

    Over a half-century of prog social policies have utterly destroyed the culture and rent the social fabric of this country beyond redemption. All we can look forward to is steady decline in the quality of life or a very ugly revolution. And this word does not always mean what progs and their ilk think. To confirm this, one has to look no further than Egypt in 20013, Chile in 1973, or Germany in 1932, to cite but a few examples.

    , @Wilkey

    The idea that there is an army of willing American born labor at the right price is also completey untrue. The lower reaches of US society are fully welfare integrated and wont work for more than a few hours.
     
    The real problem is that for God knows how long we have allowed our economy (and our welfare system) to develop around the assumption of cheap and essentially unlimited foreign labor. That has created a huge distortion in the market.

    We've come to realize that there are serious consequences to those immigration and welfare policies, and that we can't really afford them (current budget deficit: $600 billion). We can't afford the immigrants and their offspring, we can't afford the welfare cases, and the notion of a "guestworker" system doesn't really work in a country that has birthright citizenship. We can only "afford" to pay for the welfare cases because we don't need their labor and we borrow immense amounts of money to pay them.

    Without those silly guestworker programs a town like Vail would not exist, at least not as it does now. There is more than enough native unskilled labor to do the work that needs to be done. But that requires changing both our welfare and immigration systems. That needs to start now.

    , @midtown
    I agree that welfare is part of the issue here. Another part is the "college for all" idea that makes working a waste of time for high schoolers, who have to build there resumes doing service projects.
    , @Desiderius
    If Trump wants more workers all he has to do is hire some disability inspectors.
  95. @Buzz Mohawk
    Gee this is funny. Earlier this evening, I finished sanding and painting the deck in the back of my house, and now I'm reading this article. I'm approximately Steve's age, and I worked a summer doing landscaping in Colorado when I was in college -- back in those 1980s Mr. Ellison talks about. I did it for the money, working for a guy like him. I paint my own deck now, do my own landscaping ("and do the other things, not because they are easy but because they are hard." JFK, Rice University Speech, 1962) no, because I'd rather keep my money than give it to Mexicans or guys like Ellison (The one I worked for was a prick).

    Maybe it's only older Americans who enjoy doing outdoor work now. If college students in Colorado don't want to get some exercise outside in the mountains (and make money!) then why the hell are they there in the first place?

    What a pussy country it is now.

    PS: People with elaborate landscaping and "water features" in dry Colorado are dipshits. I grew up in a custom house in that same general area. Hardly anybody needed landscaping, nor wanted it, because the land was so beautiful. That was the whole point of being there.

    Yes, and ’80s Colorado had all sorts of water-usage limitations, e.g., lawn sprinkling and “water features” were distinctly frowned upon, as water was expensive and in short supply. “No-watering” landscaping, consistent with the arid high plains desert environment was the socially-accepted style.

  96. @Anonymous
    He doesn't need to pay more to attract employees. Because he probably can't pay too much more, enough to attract Americans, and still run a viable business. He needs to go out of business and find something else to do.

    The reason we have all these McMansions and fancy lawns and restaurants these days is because our immigration policy effectively subsidizes the construction, lawn service, food service, etc. industries with lower cost labor. Several decades ago, before the recent period of mass immigration, we had much more modest suburban homes, simpler lawns, and much fewer restaurants. You basically had fast food joints, greasy spoons, and a handful of fancy restaurants. We have a lot more and much better dining out options today because the immigrant labor subsidy to the restaurant industry, but this really should not be a priority of our public policy, just as landscaping should not be a priority.

    Two plus decades of very easy money has subsidized consumption at the individual level and overspending at the national level. The over-consumption and overspending has been financed by debt and not paid for out of income.

    Near-zero interest rates distorts decision-making, by advancing (bringing forward) spending, as there is no earned-interest benefit to savings and deferred consumption. Investment decisions are similarly distorted, causing savers to reach for yield in risky, less liquid speculative investments, as savings accounts offer sub-1% rates. Malinvestment on a national and global scale is the result, e.g. too many McMansions, too many shopping malls, too many restaurants, too many cars. And way too much cheap shit imported from China (which is the reverse side of the imported/immigrant cheap labor coin).

    And two generations of the fiscal/financial Ponzi scheme is part of what drives the open borders and cheap labor lobby–to continue the charade of easy living, and pass off the payroll deduction funding to the next cohort, which must be numerically enlarged to continue the pyramid structure.

    • Replies: @Intelligent Dasein
    I just want to second this comment. Every word of it is correct.

    It really is all about the money. All the ills and evils of SJWism, the Affirmative Action, the special treatment, the welfare---it's all paid for with debt-based fiat and social-democratic scrip, i.e. wealth redistribution. The free market would not produce these things. In a world of hard money and market-based interest rates, none of it could exist.

    It's occurred to me recently that this point cannot be repeated too often. The culture wars are, really and truly, not about culture at all. They're about what kind of money we're going to have. Hard money, whose chief purpose is to act as a medium of exchange for spreading around the fruits of legitimate labor; or soft money, which functions as political payola for special interest groups and connected cronies.

    The battle will ultimately be decided here. Everything else is just cutting off the heads of the hydra. If we can address the money problem the rest will wither away on its own.
  97. @Alden
    Where do these Hispanic Indians and their families live shop socialize and where do the kids go to school?

    Vail I hope.

    Eagle (about 35 miles west of Vail) is more likely. There would be no housing in Vail for seasonal workers. Fifty years ago, the winter seasonal workers lived in Minturn, about 10 miles west of Vail. Summer seasonal workers would require no schooling for children.

  98. @Intelligent Dasein
    Colorado is not a serious place---take it from the Denverite. That sort of cant is pretty typical of what you get from the latte-sipping classes out here. I'm forever bemused that I have to live and work around such an entitled bunch of self-important twats. To say that they think the world revolves around them would be something of an understatement. If you work in the service economy in any capacity, they treat you like you're their personal valet and everything that might be going wrong with their day is your responsibility to fix---job descriptions, finances, and logic be damned. Yuppie with a problem over here.

    Similar to my Denver, Colorado experience in the ’80s. I recall Boulder residents who actually verbalized that they were living in “the greatest place in the world.”

    Now we all like to believe we’re living in the best place for our own interests, preferences, and trade-offs–but it takes some narrow-minded, cosseted, arrogance to openly declare to others that it’s the greatest place in the world. And that’s just for openers…

  99. @Logan
    Quite right. This ain't the Central Valley of CA. Vail in the summer is really, really nice.

    Yup. all of low-humidity Colorado is nice in the summer. Next to perhaps San Diego, I think CO has the nicest weather in the country–just stay out of the Rockies if you prefer to avoid snow–Denver gets very little (though what comes is in a storm).

    • Replies: @Barnard
    That doesn't correspond with what I have heard from several people who have lived in Denver, so I looked it up. Where do you live that you consider 60 inches of snow a year "very little?"

    https://www.bestplaces.net/climate/city/colorado/denver
    , @Logan
    Yup. Lived eight years in Durango, which is a little warmer than Vail, being a lower elevation. Very nice weather indeed. Eastern CO, out on the plains, can get fairly unpleasant in the summer. But nobody lives there, so that's ok.
  100. @Forbes
    Yup. all of low-humidity Colorado is nice in the summer. Next to perhaps San Diego, I think CO has the nicest weather in the country--just stay out of the Rockies if you prefer to avoid snow--Denver gets very little (though what comes is in a storm).

    That doesn’t correspond with what I have heard from several people who have lived in Denver, so I looked it up. Where do you live that you consider 60 inches of snow a year “very little?”

    https://www.bestplaces.net/climate/city/colorado/denver

    • Replies: @Intelligent Dasein
    The winters along the Front Range are highly variable, but most of the heavy, wet snow falls in early spring, not winter proper. In Denver, it isn't unusual for the months of November, December, and January to be mild and very dry. Daytime temperatures in the 40s or 50s and partly cloudy with no precipitation. When it does snow, it's shallow and it melts away fairly fast. February usually brings an arctic cold front and a blast of bitter cold temperatures, with March being the month with the worst storms and the most unpredictable weather.

    One way to think about Denver weather is to conceive of the seasons all being on a two to three month delay. Let's start with spring. Morning crispness and cool, drizzly days often persist straight through June, making you feel as if the bony hand of winter hasn't quite relinquished its grip. But the solstice occurs already on June 21st. Summer peaks early, and its strange to think that the days are getting shorter again when it feels like you've only barely had done with last year's winter. July brings those afternoon monsoonal thunderstorms that blow east off the Rockies, regular as clockwork. It can be 98 degrees in the afternoon but they'll drench you with rain that is always ice cold, and hail. Ten minutes later they move on, an interlude of torrential rain during which the sun never stopped shining.

    Sidereal summer is mostly over before it feels like meteorological summer ever really gets established. Fortunately, for those who enjoy that season, autumn brings with it a long Indian summer that lasts directly into winter proper. October can be oppressively hot and bright, much to the disappointment of timberwolves like me who enjoy the nestled and doomy feeling of iron-grey skies, of a world gown silent and deserted as the first few intrepid snowflakes swirl. You do get that in October sometimes, but never enough for my taste.

    Long after the last leaves have fallen, a pleasant autumn begins. You can forget about white Christmases; Christmas in Denver is 50 degrees and partly cloudy as a rule, and I'll tell you it doesn't do my spirits any good to see everyone out and about in shorts and tank-tops during a season that I would rather associate with deep, dark meditative quietness and hunkering down with family in the homestead. The mild temperatures last right into the new year and persist through January. Just when you've thought that you already missed the worst of winter this year, the thermometer plunges in February and March brings a bomb cyclone or a blizzard, ushering in the ferocity of winter just as the equinox is signalling spring. April and May are the months of the ice storms, as a slushy oobleck falls from the sky, breaking tree branches and collapsing carports. Winter relents just in time for the summer solstice, and the cycle begins anew (late).

    Denver should be thought of not so much as the extreme western terminus of the Great Plains, but as the extreme southern outpost of interior Canada. Fifty miles to the south, across the Palmer divide, begins those first, subtle hints of desert that will fade off into broken canyonlands and sandstone; but here is the final effort of the far north---an unloved effort tossed up cynically with a sigh and a dusting off of the hands. Here is where the taiga gives up.

    While not a perfect model, it does provide interesting food for thought and sheds new light on many a phenomenon.
    , @Forbes
    I guess the weather has changed a little from the '80-'90 period when I lived there: 12 inches of rain, 40 inches of snow, and 280 sunny days.

    We'd refer to solar snowplowing. You get up in the morning for work with a 1 or 2 inch white blanket of snow covering the grass (it might be April or October), the sun would rise in the sky, and the snow was gone by mid-morning. (The ground isn't frozen, so the snow melts on road pavement.) In the winter, it might snow overnight, with a similar result, but only 45 degrees and sunny at lunchtime, instead of 65.
  101. You are wrong. Whatever the media says, farmers, small farmers in particular, have a terrible time getting farm workers.

    Here’s a story you won’t like: a tomato farmer in the northeast, himself, stated that his tomatoes were going unpicked because of the Mexican shortage. How much do you pay? Was the liberal interviewer’s question. $16 an hour, was the answer. Well, surely Americans would be willing to work for $16 an hour. Yeah, says the farmer, but they can’t. They are too weak. You don’t mean that, says the interviewer. You mean they just don’t want to. Farmer: No, I mean literally too weak. I go into town, pick up a bunch of willing Americans, take them out to the farm, and not one of them has ever been able to work for more than 4 hours of an 8 hour day. Picking tomatoes is very, very hard.

    The US needs an intelligent, organized guest worker program. Because Americans are too weak. Fact. You are too. Too weak. Simple fact about Americans. They will never be able to pick produce. Because–wait for it–they are too weak.

  102. @Hypnotoad666
    One thing i find odd about Mexican workers, is that they never wear shorts when working outside. They'll be roofing some house in 110 degree weather, wearing jeans and a flannel shirt.

    I guess it's a cultural thing, or maybe they have better heat tolerance.

    I started wearing long pants all summer when I got a motorcycle. Yes, I know, it’s not gonna do much compared to leather clothes, but it kept me from burning myself on the exhaust. You get used to it.

  103. @Wilkey

    But now, few ski bums and college-aged young people are willing to toil in all conditions under the Colorado sun, he said.
     
    Average July high temperature in Vail, Colorado: 77 degrees.

    Funny. The average July high in my city is in the 90s, but there appears to be no shortage of landscaping labor.

    The fact is that Vail is just too damn expensive for landscaping workers to buy a home in, or even rent in, and there aren't any big cities very close by. Denver is almost two hours away, and I've heard that drive is a bitch in the winter. You need to either pay them enough to make it worth the longer commute, or you need housing they can afford to buy.

    This is the problem with our immigration policy, and with allowing the economy to develop around the assumption of unlimited cheap labor. If the guestworker plan hadn't been in existence all these years then the people building these homes would have been taking into account the need for American labor all along. Now you have these wild fluctuations based on the whims of Congress and the White House.

    Vail needs to be weened off its addiction to foreign labor, and there's no time better than the present to start.

    AGREED again, and with so many great comments here, I don’t have enough to go around.

  104. @Mr. Blank
    Toiling under “the Colorado sun,” huh?

    *facepalm*

    I find it really hard to believe that today’s college students are more lazy and spoiled than I was back in the day, yet every summer the golf courses and landscape firms back in Alabama — I see your “Colorado sun” and raise you — had plenty of college boys willing to bust their asses all week for weekend beer money.

    I’m not even gonna lie and say “kids these days” are too lazy, because we were lazy as hell. You know what got us off our lazy asses? Money.

    And don’t even give me the crap about “Mexicans do a better job, tho.” No they don’t. I’ve seen it with my own eyes. They’re not better — just cheaper.

    The kids haven’t gotten lazier. The businesses have just gotten cheaper...just like everybody else in America. Hell, consumers these days have been trained to accept cheap, crappy, disposable products everywhere — is it any surprise businesses feel the same way about labor?

    AGREED.

    A contractor near me hired crews of Mexicans to tear down one house and build an unsightly McMansion that towers above the rest of the houses. These guys work hard but don’t do quality work. People don’t know that this work requires lots of thinking, and, as someone noted here, perhaps these folks are lazy with their thinking.

    It took about 6 months of additional work after someone put an offer on the house to fix things that were wrong per an inspection. I told the contractor he was losing his ass, and he kept saying “that’s your opinion”. I said “there’s no opinion about it, you’re either losing your ass, or you’re not. You’re losing your ass on this deal!” “OK, I’m losing my ass.” he finally admitted.

    • Replies: @Logan
    Very few people are aware that modern building are built of materials and designs that demand a great deal of sophistication to function properly. Much more so than in the old days.

    So we're designing systems that require greater expertise and care in installation while at the same time using people to install them who are less and less capable of doing so.

    Not a problem for me, since my line of work involves locating and diagnosing the problems thus created, but still...

  105. @Mike1
    It really is amazing that people are so divorced from physical labor that comments like this can get written. It has to mean you (and the many other comments displaying utter cluelessness) literally don't even know someone that works outside.

    The idea that there is an army of willing American born labor at the right price is also completey untrue. The lower reaches of US society are fully welfare integrated and wont work for more than a few hours. Price does not matter. I have paid way above market in a major metro to test this (at scale too - not random jobs). In non metro areas workers simply do not exist with current conditions.

    The middle class and above have no idea the extent of welfare in this country. It is a genuine career for the bottom part of society.

    You can make the immigration restrictionist argument without saying things that are untrue.

    My father owned and ran a construction business. He worked alongside his men and many of them had worked with him for decades and were as much friends, and almost family, as employees. This was Massachusetts, so he had to be union, but he stopped bidding on union work after some union idiot nearly cost him his life and livelihood by insisting that a union work rule prevented the idiot from coming to my father’s aid during a life-and-death situation. Despite this, my father paid above-union wages and provided better benefits, paid holidays and vacation, etc.

    He was an old-fashioned New Deal Democrat and in the 1950s experimented with employing Negro workers. His other employees were fine with this but the experiment didn’t work. The Negroes had zero necessary job skills, e.g., the ability to determine what knots were needed in particular situations and how to tie them, the cognitive ability to autonomously figure out where they needed to give a hand, and the like. Beyond this they slacked off at every opportunity, failed to show up on time, always had excuses for leaving off work at inconvenient times, and often just failed to show up. Eventually my father gave up his noble experiment. It could actually have endangered other peoples’ lives.

    Up until the end of the 1970s, when an employee retired or left his employment for some other reason, he had no trouble finding willing workers. They were all native-born and of European descent. After that it became harder and harder to find reliable employees whom he could trust. The last straw was a forty-something White, who in the early 1980s had been kicked off welfare and begged him for a job. The guy lasted half a day before whining that he couldn’t handle the work. At that time my father was in his late sixties and the two other workers were pushing fifty.

    My father basically wound up working with one guy in his late thirties whom he could trust. Ocassionally he would hire supplementary help or ask me and my brothers, or friends for help. My father became good friends with his trusted employee. The guy was a real go-getter and ran a construction firm of his own on the side. He’d worked his way up from a tough life. Ultimately, when my father could no longer work – in his late 70s, early 80s – he sold the business and the right to operate it under the old family name to his trusted employee/friend.

    Over a half-century of prog social policies have utterly destroyed the culture and rent the social fabric of this country beyond redemption. All we can look forward to is steady decline in the quality of life or a very ugly revolution. And this word does not always mean what progs and their ilk think. To confirm this, one has to look no further than Egypt in 20013, Chile in 1973, or Germany in 1932, to cite but a few examples.

  106. @Mike1
    It really is amazing that people are so divorced from physical labor that comments like this can get written. It has to mean you (and the many other comments displaying utter cluelessness) literally don't even know someone that works outside.

    The idea that there is an army of willing American born labor at the right price is also completey untrue. The lower reaches of US society are fully welfare integrated and wont work for more than a few hours. Price does not matter. I have paid way above market in a major metro to test this (at scale too - not random jobs). In non metro areas workers simply do not exist with current conditions.

    The middle class and above have no idea the extent of welfare in this country. It is a genuine career for the bottom part of society.

    You can make the immigration restrictionist argument without saying things that are untrue.

    The idea that there is an army of willing American born labor at the right price is also completey untrue. The lower reaches of US society are fully welfare integrated and wont work for more than a few hours.

    The real problem is that for God knows how long we have allowed our economy (and our welfare system) to develop around the assumption of cheap and essentially unlimited foreign labor. That has created a huge distortion in the market.

    We’ve come to realize that there are serious consequences to those immigration and welfare policies, and that we can’t really afford them (current budget deficit: $600 billion). We can’t afford the immigrants and their offspring, we can’t afford the welfare cases, and the notion of a “guestworker” system doesn’t really work in a country that has birthright citizenship. We can only “afford” to pay for the welfare cases because we don’t need their labor and we borrow immense amounts of money to pay them.

    Without those silly guestworker programs a town like Vail would not exist, at least not as it does now. There is more than enough native unskilled labor to do the work that needs to be done. But that requires changing both our welfare and immigration systems. That needs to start now.

    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
    Vail was founded during the post war period by a WWII veteran of the 10th Mountain division, who had trained near there, and a local rancher. It grew and became famous long before our current immigration suicide and therefore probably never needed cheap foreign labor.

    It has become, obviously, yet another example of how the United States has changed to a Latin American economy and society of rich and poor -- a stratified nation that depends on a large underclass for its existence.

    Appropriately, more than a few owners of expensive houses there are rich Mexicans and other old-world, globalist trash.

    BTW Vail is aesthetically underwhelming. There is plenty of good skiing, especially in the back bowls where you don't see it, but the town is a nouveau, Disneylandish imitation of a European, Alpine village, only without the spectacular Alps scenery. (Not even a concrete Matterhorn with bobsleds on tracks!) The general impression is of condominium sprawl along a stretch of Interstate 70, devoid of any notable mountain peaks. Whoop-di-frickin'-do.

  107. @Wilkey

    The idea that there is an army of willing American born labor at the right price is also completey untrue. The lower reaches of US society are fully welfare integrated and wont work for more than a few hours.
     
    The real problem is that for God knows how long we have allowed our economy (and our welfare system) to develop around the assumption of cheap and essentially unlimited foreign labor. That has created a huge distortion in the market.

    We've come to realize that there are serious consequences to those immigration and welfare policies, and that we can't really afford them (current budget deficit: $600 billion). We can't afford the immigrants and their offspring, we can't afford the welfare cases, and the notion of a "guestworker" system doesn't really work in a country that has birthright citizenship. We can only "afford" to pay for the welfare cases because we don't need their labor and we borrow immense amounts of money to pay them.

    Without those silly guestworker programs a town like Vail would not exist, at least not as it does now. There is more than enough native unskilled labor to do the work that needs to be done. But that requires changing both our welfare and immigration systems. That needs to start now.

    Vail was founded during the post war period by a WWII veteran of the 10th Mountain division, who had trained near there, and a local rancher. It grew and became famous long before our current immigration suicide and therefore probably never needed cheap foreign labor.

    It has become, obviously, yet another example of how the United States has changed to a Latin American economy and society of rich and poor — a stratified nation that depends on a large underclass for its existence.

    Appropriately, more than a few owners of expensive houses there are rich Mexicans and other old-world, globalist trash.

    BTW Vail is aesthetically underwhelming. There is plenty of good skiing, especially in the back bowls where you don’t see it, but the town is a nouveau, Disneylandish imitation of a European, Alpine village, only without the spectacular Alps scenery. (Not even a concrete Matterhorn with bobsleds on tracks!) The general impression is of condominium sprawl along a stretch of Interstate 70, devoid of any notable mountain peaks. Whoop-di-frickin’-do.

    • Replies: @Wilkey

    Vail was founded during the post war period by a WWII veteran of the 10th Mountain division, who had trained near there, and a local rancher. It grew and became famous long before our current immigration suicide and therefore probably never needed cheap foreign labor.
     
    Never needed it - but it got it, anyway.

    My point was more that the trajectory it has taken has been due in large part to the ability to bring in cheap foreign labor, illegally or as legal guestworkers. Take away the cheap foreign labor and it would still be there, just a lot different.
  108. @YetAnotherAnon
    Maybe they don't want to do it for minimum wage? How much did they get in the 1980s, when apparently Americans would do such work, and how did that compare against the then cost of living in Colorado?

    Maybe they don’t want to do it for minimum wage? How much did they get in the 1980s, when apparently Americans would do such work, and how did that compare against the then cost of living in Colorado?

    No argument.

    I’m definitely not saying Americans not wanting to do stoop labor for Mexican wages is the problem. It’s not. (I’m not going to do stoop labor for Mexican wages either.)

    The problem is the cheap-labor stooges and the politicians/bureaucrats who have refused to enforce the border and employment eligibility and waved in masses of immigrants–effectively pushing up the labor supply, pushing down the price.

    Fix that and wages will rise and you’ll see Americans doing all the labor America needs.

    • Agree: Buzz Mohawk
    • Replies: @obwandiyag
    Yeah, right. Do you actually know any Americans? Do you know how weak they are? Americans cannot last 4 hours picking tomatoes. Period. No matter how much you pay them. Not because they don't want to. But because they are too weak.

    Like you. You wouldn't last 4 hours picking tomatoes at speed. Unassailable fact.

  109. @Buzz Mohawk
    Vail was founded during the post war period by a WWII veteran of the 10th Mountain division, who had trained near there, and a local rancher. It grew and became famous long before our current immigration suicide and therefore probably never needed cheap foreign labor.

    It has become, obviously, yet another example of how the United States has changed to a Latin American economy and society of rich and poor -- a stratified nation that depends on a large underclass for its existence.

    Appropriately, more than a few owners of expensive houses there are rich Mexicans and other old-world, globalist trash.

    BTW Vail is aesthetically underwhelming. There is plenty of good skiing, especially in the back bowls where you don't see it, but the town is a nouveau, Disneylandish imitation of a European, Alpine village, only without the spectacular Alps scenery. (Not even a concrete Matterhorn with bobsleds on tracks!) The general impression is of condominium sprawl along a stretch of Interstate 70, devoid of any notable mountain peaks. Whoop-di-frickin'-do.

    Vail was founded during the post war period by a WWII veteran of the 10th Mountain division, who had trained near there, and a local rancher. It grew and became famous long before our current immigration suicide and therefore probably never needed cheap foreign labor.

    Never needed it – but it got it, anyway.

    My point was more that the trajectory it has taken has been due in large part to the ability to bring in cheap foreign labor, illegally or as legal guestworkers. Take away the cheap foreign labor and it would still be there, just a lot different.

    • Replies: @obwandiyag
    The point is that you are wrong.
  110. @Reg Cæsar

    “For the most part, we, as Americans, have grown [cheap]. We don’t like to go out there and [pay] like that,” he said.
     

    Welfare is too generous. That is the population that would do work like that — if they had to feed themselves.

  111. @Mike1
    It really is amazing that people are so divorced from physical labor that comments like this can get written. It has to mean you (and the many other comments displaying utter cluelessness) literally don't even know someone that works outside.

    The idea that there is an army of willing American born labor at the right price is also completey untrue. The lower reaches of US society are fully welfare integrated and wont work for more than a few hours. Price does not matter. I have paid way above market in a major metro to test this (at scale too - not random jobs). In non metro areas workers simply do not exist with current conditions.

    The middle class and above have no idea the extent of welfare in this country. It is a genuine career for the bottom part of society.

    You can make the immigration restrictionist argument without saying things that are untrue.

    I agree that welfare is part of the issue here. Another part is the “college for all” idea that makes working a waste of time for high schoolers, who have to build there resumes doing service projects.

  112. @Dan sickles
    I worked in landscaping in Colorado in the 90s and there are plenty of hippies and rednecks who are willing to do that kind of work. I applied for several jobs where it was made clear that they weren’t hiring non-Hispanics no matter how low the pay. Some of the clients prefer having whites do the work. They treat you like a blacksmith at colonial Williamsburg or something, but many just want the crews of mestizo helots to come and do their thing and quietly leave without any sort of human interaction.
    Cheap foreign labor doesn’t fill any vital role in the economy. It allows the upper crust to live like rich people in the rest of the world, with armies of docile servants creating their McMansions and elaborate landscaping. It’s especially absurd to see this in a fragile unsustainable environment like the Colorado Rockies. Maybe these folk, who I’m sure are handwringing about climate change, should take some of their precious open space and build barracks for their helots.

    I applied for several jobs where it was made clear that they weren’t hiring non-Hispanics no matter how low the pay.

    My hunch, this is very common out there. Americans being discriminated against – in their own country – because of their nationality. I wish we had documentation that could prove this.

    And as difficult as it is for blue collar whites to compete with Mexicans it is much worse for Black Americans. What a sick country we are. Or more correctly, we are not a country. The American nation is dead.

    • Replies: @Dieter Kief

    The American nation is dead.
     
    That's the point, where Steve Sailers "Citizenship"-idea fits in quite nicely - it would mean to (re)construct a US-American consciousness. The alternative being the new world-citizenship with no local or communal or regional or national responsibilities whatsoever - this being clearly the easy way out for DaveGoodhart's globally oriented Somewheres - the upper 15 % of the US lets say.
  113. @AnotherDad

    Maybe they don’t want to do it for minimum wage? How much did they get in the 1980s, when apparently Americans would do such work, and how did that compare against the then cost of living in Colorado?
     
    No argument.

    I'm definitely not saying Americans not wanting to do stoop labor for Mexican wages is the problem. It's not. (I'm not going to do stoop labor for Mexican wages either.)

    The problem is the cheap-labor stooges and the politicians/bureaucrats who have refused to enforce the border and employment eligibility and waved in masses of immigrants--effectively pushing up the labor supply, pushing down the price.

    Fix that and wages will rise and you'll see Americans doing all the labor America needs.

    Yeah, right. Do you actually know any Americans? Do you know how weak they are? Americans cannot last 4 hours picking tomatoes. Period. No matter how much you pay them. Not because they don’t want to. But because they are too weak.

    Like you. You wouldn’t last 4 hours picking tomatoes at speed. Unassailable fact.

    • Replies: @JMcG
    That’s it, you’re off to the commenters to ignore bin with Corvinus and Tiny Duck.
  114. @Wilkey

    Vail was founded during the post war period by a WWII veteran of the 10th Mountain division, who had trained near there, and a local rancher. It grew and became famous long before our current immigration suicide and therefore probably never needed cheap foreign labor.
     
    Never needed it - but it got it, anyway.

    My point was more that the trajectory it has taken has been due in large part to the ability to bring in cheap foreign labor, illegally or as legal guestworkers. Take away the cheap foreign labor and it would still be there, just a lot different.

    The point is that you are wrong.

  115. @Alden
    I’d like to know exactly which high school had rich WASPs and jews, Indians of various kinds, Tamils Hispanics and blacks all in the same school at the same time. And no non Jewish Whites who were German Slavic Italian Irish etc.

    And exactly how did her immigrant mother figure it all out? How many Jewish men marry Indians anyway? How many Hindu immigrants let their daughters marry out of their own caste, let alone American Jews?

    On the other hand American Jewish men don’t demand dowries for the arduous duty of marrying a woman.

    I’m too cynical and skeptical.

    >how did she figure it out?
    Are you joking? She’s literally equating class with cash.
    THE MYSTERIOUS EAST LADIES AND GENTLEMEN

  116. @Sextus Empiricus
    “A man should never wear shorts unless he is exercising or at the beach.”

    I wouldn’t even accept those exceptions. Shorts are for children under 6 and young women with very nice legs, period.

    You got it.

  117. @Ibound1
    yep. I picked tomatoes as a teenager and was paid by the weight. No way that would be legal now - hell - Im not 100% sure it was legal then but no plaintiff’s lawyers or Mexicans were around. So we all did it.

    Yeah, right. I bet you picked tomatoes farmworker-style. More internet lying.

    • Replies: @Ibound1
    Idiot. You know nothing about what America once was. After you all leave, we will make it so again.
  118. @Hypnotoad666
    One thing i find odd about Mexican workers, is that they never wear shorts when working outside. They'll be roofing some house in 110 degree weather, wearing jeans and a flannel shirt.

    I guess it's a cultural thing, or maybe they have better heat tolerance.

    They’ll be roofing some house in 110 degree weather, wearing jeans and a flannel shirt.

    I’m up on my roof a fair bit in Florida nailing and tarring–the hurricanes loosened stuff up. Up there fixing/replacing some loose ridgeline shingles just a few weeks back. Always wearing jeans to avoid getting scraped up no matter the temperature. That’s the norm for construction–jeans or some other heavy work pants, so avoid getting a lot of cuts and scrapes.

  119. Weird. I’ve had three guys — heritage American guys — working on my ranch all June in steaming heat, rain, mud, mosquitos, doing grueling brush-clearing and fencing work. They won’t work as cheap as the Mexicans will, for sure, but I don’t want the Mexicans here.

    There are Americans to do the jobs.

  120. @Mr McKenna

    Nice pivot Mr. Ellison.
     
    Funny surname, Ellison. Every Ellison I've known IRL was of the Tribe.
    As is one of the richest men in the world:

    https://www.irishtimes.com/polopoly_fs/1.2797172.1474304111!/image/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/box_620_330/image.jpg

    The only other Ellison I can think of was Ralph,
    who was definitely from a different tribe.

    I thought of that too and my mind immediately went to Harlan Ellison — Talmudic sci-fi writer and provocateur of Frank Sinatra. Here he is mocking the goys on the old Tom Snyder show.

  121. @Woodsie
    How much does he pay? $15? $20? I find it impossible to believe that he wouldn't have men lining up to work for him if he was paying $40 an hour. I like the way this humble landscaper, who started with a rake, is now a patriarchal figure, in his own mind, with his 'family' of Mexican migrant workers. How condescending, how patronizing. Americans aren't soft, and they damn sure don't want their boss to pretend he's their daddy. They demand dignity. They demand a decent payday.

    How much does he pay? $15? $20? I find it impossible to believe that he wouldn’t have men lining up to work for him if he was paying $40 an hour. I like the way this humble landscaper, who started with a rake, is now a patriarchal figure, in his own mind, with his ‘family’ of Mexican migrant workers. How condescending, how patronizing. Americans aren’t soft, and they damn sure don’t want their boss to pretend he’s their daddy. They demand dignity. They demand a decent payday.

    Typical of today’s so called journalist. What’s your average hourly salary for this kind of work question, seems blatantly obvious.

  122. @fish

    I guess no one told this guy that he can just go down to Home Depot with a pickup and get all the day laborers he needs.
     
    As a business owner he be crucified if the Colorado Dept of Labor caught wind of this.

    As a business owner he be crucified if the Colorado Dept of Labor caught wind of this.

    On the very off chance that they were looking perhaps. This happens every day here in the Peoples’ Republic and no one blinks an eye.

  123. @Mike1
    It really is amazing that people are so divorced from physical labor that comments like this can get written. It has to mean you (and the many other comments displaying utter cluelessness) literally don't even know someone that works outside.

    The idea that there is an army of willing American born labor at the right price is also completey untrue. The lower reaches of US society are fully welfare integrated and wont work for more than a few hours. Price does not matter. I have paid way above market in a major metro to test this (at scale too - not random jobs). In non metro areas workers simply do not exist with current conditions.

    The middle class and above have no idea the extent of welfare in this country. It is a genuine career for the bottom part of society.

    You can make the immigration restrictionist argument without saying things that are untrue.

    If Trump wants more workers all he has to do is hire some disability inspectors.

  124. @Jus' Sayin'...
    Construction work requires clothing that more or less covers one's body. In my late twenties and early thirties I worked on a pile driving crew, during some extremely hot New England summers. The work was usually eight to four with a half hour lunch break at noon. Everyone on the crew worked wearing a heavy, long sleeved shirt, heavy pants, thick gloves, a metal hard hat, and boots. We all did this even though the work was strenuous, the temperatures often reached 100 degrees, and the humidity could be what is usually described as oppressive.

    The reasons are obvious if one has any familiarity with this kind of work. Boiling hot creosote vapor was constantly sprayed off the piles when the hammer hit. It could burn off layers of skin if one was not protected. Handling thick rope and cable raised a constant threat of rope burns. Objects occasionally fell or were flung by machinery into areas where we might be working. Finally, there was a constant risk of falls, scrapes, and bruises that might have been serious had we all not been fully covered.

    I was the youngest guy on this crew. Most were in their forties and fifties, but a couple were pushing seventy or more. All had raised families on the money they earned in construction. All were native-born Americans of European descent except one, a Canadian of Irish descent. The pay and benefits were good, enough to raise a family on. The owner/operator of the rig really did treat his regular workers like they were close friends or family.

    Now, with unemployment rampant among the native-born, unskilled laborers in the same area where I once worked and still live today, I see cheap Indio, immigrant labor, none of whom have enough English to be able to work safe+ly and do the work properly doing jobs that native-born workers should be doing. The only reason is to squeeze out a few bucks more profit for the owners or save filthy rich pigs money building their crappy McMansions.

    No mention of any of this in the debates though. Trump has proven nothing more than a blowhard liar. The presidency is up for grabs to anyone who demonstrates real concern for the working people of this country. But apparently the political class and establishment of this country are incapable of producing such a person. All we can look forward to is either a slow decline into decay, corruption, and tyraany or a catastrophic and violent collapse. I'd prefer the latter.

    No mention of any of this in the debates though. Trump has proven nothing more than a blowhard liar.

    You are saying this just after Nancy Pelosi gave in to Trump and passed the border funding he needed. Mexico is also now guarding the border for us with their military and stopping new caravans. And they are paying for it themselves.

    Next step is for him to fix the asylum rules which the illegals and Democrats have been exploiting and get more of the border wall constructed.

  125. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @Counterinsurgency
    This is a result of the welfare state.

    If free market job pay drops below welfare levels, the job doesn't get done. I've specifically seen this happen with marriage -- welfare stops it, since the husband, if blue collar, doesn't really make as much as welfare pays when he's young.

    Getting the job done thus (as in several historical welfare states) involves use of slaves -- Mexicans in the case mentioned - who are not citizens and have no welfare to collect. Eventually, the slaves become citizens (happens every time) and the process either repeats with new slave groups or the welfare system goes away or, of course, both.

    Something similar can happen (and did) without welfare. During the Gilded Age in the USA the business class thought of the immigrant stream as the source of their wealth, a Golden Stream (classic account by I.P. Daily, as I recall), with essentially no political rights on a State or National level -- artificial slaves. The descendants of the slaves took out the descendants of the upper classes (Wilson's election).

    So very very obvious, but systems don't think, nor do the systems people inside them. Under a sociobiology approach, systems are the background of an evolutionary game, and what counts is having an evolutionary stable strategy (ESS) that ensures survival and offspring (on average). Business people who think beyond P&L tend not to last, nor do politicians who think beyond the next election. Not always true, but that's the way to bet. If this ESS drives the entire species (and its associated system) into extinction, well, then, the system goes to extinction.

    What the West has done so far is to use system failure as an occasion for inventing a new (and improved in that it survives) system Last time around was the 1930s and WW II, which (in practice) spread Fascism worldwide (e.g. Antifa,which is classic Fascist street fighting). That's what we're looking at. The 1930s Fascist model is played out (see debates yesterday and today, 2019-06-27, 2 day windos).

    The new system will either not make holding a job a cause of infertility or it won't have jobs. No jobs is possible under systems like subsistence farming, which was the system in much of Mexico before NAFTA made it uneconomic.

    Counterinsurgency

    The new system will either not make holding a job a cause of infertility or it won’t have jobs. No jobs is possible under systems like subsistence farming, which was the system in much of Mexico before NAFTA made it uneconomic.

    Subsistence farming is a horrible way of life.

    • Replies: @Counterinsurgency
    Subsistence farming is a horrible way of life.

    Yep. Tried it once.

    Counterinsurgency
  126. @prime noticer
    snow left melting on the mountain.

    Rivers running free, not fountained.

  127. @anon
    >toil in all conditions under the Colorado sun

    Low-humidity Vail, CO gets above 80 degrees once in the next week. It's real rough working up there in the mountains.

    I wonder how many of those Mexicans come down with skin cancer? Exposure to that intense mountain sun day after day.

  128. @Forbes
    Yup. all of low-humidity Colorado is nice in the summer. Next to perhaps San Diego, I think CO has the nicest weather in the country--just stay out of the Rockies if you prefer to avoid snow--Denver gets very little (though what comes is in a storm).

    Yup. Lived eight years in Durango, which is a little warmer than Vail, being a lower elevation. Very nice weather indeed. Eastern CO, out on the plains, can get fairly unpleasant in the summer. But nobody lives there, so that’s ok.

  129. @Wilkey
    "Much of the unskilled labor in ski towns is now provided by H2B visa holders that corporate resorts bring in from Mexico, Eastern Europe, and even Russia."

    We spent a few weeks on vacation in one of these ski towns (not Vail) one summer during the Great Recession. Unemployment rates were already over 10% in several states, but there were two H-2B workers ringing up groceries at the grocery store. One was from China, the other was from Russia. The Russian girl also worked at the restaurant where we ate breakfast a few times, then was working at the grocery store every single night we went in. She was probably clocking 70-80 hours a week.

    Both were nice girls. Nothing against either of them. But I wondered why the hell we were bringing in people from overseas when so many Americans were collecting unemployment and food stamps.

    “But I wondered why the hell we were bringing in people from overseas when so many Americans were collecting unemployment and food stamps.”

    Because so many Americans were collecting unemployment and food stamps! If those bennies weren’t available, they’d be hustling like the Russian and Chinese girls.

  130. @Achmed E. Newman
    AGREED.

    A contractor near me hired crews of Mexicans to tear down one house and build an unsightly McMansion that towers above the rest of the houses. These guys work hard but don't do quality work. People don't know that this work requires lots of thinking, and, as someone noted here, perhaps these folks are lazy with their thinking.

    It took about 6 months of additional work after someone put an offer on the house to fix things that were wrong per an inspection. I told the contractor he was losing his ass, and he kept saying "that's your opinion". I said "there's no opinion about it, you're either losing your ass, or you're not. You're losing your ass on this deal!" "OK, I'm losing my ass." he finally admitted.

    Very few people are aware that modern building are built of materials and designs that demand a great deal of sophistication to function properly. Much more so than in the old days.

    So we’re designing systems that require greater expertise and care in installation while at the same time using people to install them who are less and less capable of doing so.

    Not a problem for me, since my line of work involves locating and diagnosing the problems thus created, but still…

  131. @Forbes
    Two plus decades of very easy money has subsidized consumption at the individual level and overspending at the national level. The over-consumption and overspending has been financed by debt and not paid for out of income.

    Near-zero interest rates distorts decision-making, by advancing (bringing forward) spending, as there is no earned-interest benefit to savings and deferred consumption. Investment decisions are similarly distorted, causing savers to reach for yield in risky, less liquid speculative investments, as savings accounts offer sub-1% rates. Malinvestment on a national and global scale is the result, e.g. too many McMansions, too many shopping malls, too many restaurants, too many cars. And way too much cheap shit imported from China (which is the reverse side of the imported/immigrant cheap labor coin).

    And two generations of the fiscal/financial Ponzi scheme is part of what drives the open borders and cheap labor lobby--to continue the charade of easy living, and pass off the payroll deduction funding to the next cohort, which must be numerically enlarged to continue the pyramid structure.

    I just want to second this comment. Every word of it is correct.

    It really is all about the money. All the ills and evils of SJWism, the Affirmative Action, the special treatment, the welfare—it’s all paid for with debt-based fiat and social-democratic scrip, i.e. wealth redistribution. The free market would not produce these things. In a world of hard money and market-based interest rates, none of it could exist.

    It’s occurred to me recently that this point cannot be repeated too often. The culture wars are, really and truly, not about culture at all. They’re about what kind of money we’re going to have. Hard money, whose chief purpose is to act as a medium of exchange for spreading around the fruits of legitimate labor; or soft money, which functions as political payola for special interest groups and connected cronies.

    The battle will ultimately be decided here. Everything else is just cutting off the heads of the hydra. If we can address the money problem the rest will wither away on its own.

    • Replies: @Forbes
    Well said and excellent hard money/soft money insight.
  132. @Barnard
    That doesn't correspond with what I have heard from several people who have lived in Denver, so I looked it up. Where do you live that you consider 60 inches of snow a year "very little?"

    https://www.bestplaces.net/climate/city/colorado/denver

    The winters along the Front Range are highly variable, but most of the heavy, wet snow falls in early spring, not winter proper. In Denver, it isn’t unusual for the months of November, December, and January to be mild and very dry. Daytime temperatures in the 40s or 50s and partly cloudy with no precipitation. When it does snow, it’s shallow and it melts away fairly fast. February usually brings an arctic cold front and a blast of bitter cold temperatures, with March being the month with the worst storms and the most unpredictable weather.

    One way to think about Denver weather is to conceive of the seasons all being on a two to three month delay. Let’s start with spring. Morning crispness and cool, drizzly days often persist straight through June, making you feel as if the bony hand of winter hasn’t quite relinquished its grip. But the solstice occurs already on June 21st. Summer peaks early, and its strange to think that the days are getting shorter again when it feels like you’ve only barely had done with last year’s winter. July brings those afternoon monsoonal thunderstorms that blow east off the Rockies, regular as clockwork. It can be 98 degrees in the afternoon but they’ll drench you with rain that is always ice cold, and hail. Ten minutes later they move on, an interlude of torrential rain during which the sun never stopped shining.

    Sidereal summer is mostly over before it feels like meteorological summer ever really gets established. Fortunately, for those who enjoy that season, autumn brings with it a long Indian summer that lasts directly into winter proper. October can be oppressively hot and bright, much to the disappointment of timberwolves like me who enjoy the nestled and doomy feeling of iron-grey skies, of a world gown silent and deserted as the first few intrepid snowflakes swirl. You do get that in October sometimes, but never enough for my taste.

    Long after the last leaves have fallen, a pleasant autumn begins. You can forget about white Christmases; Christmas in Denver is 50 degrees and partly cloudy as a rule, and I’ll tell you it doesn’t do my spirits any good to see everyone out and about in shorts and tank-tops during a season that I would rather associate with deep, dark meditative quietness and hunkering down with family in the homestead. The mild temperatures last right into the new year and persist through January. Just when you’ve thought that you already missed the worst of winter this year, the thermometer plunges in February and March brings a bomb cyclone or a blizzard, ushering in the ferocity of winter just as the equinox is signalling spring. April and May are the months of the ice storms, as a slushy oobleck falls from the sky, breaking tree branches and collapsing carports. Winter relents just in time for the summer solstice, and the cycle begins anew (late).

    Denver should be thought of not so much as the extreme western terminus of the Great Plains, but as the extreme southern outpost of interior Canada. Fifty miles to the south, across the Palmer divide, begins those first, subtle hints of desert that will fade off into broken canyonlands and sandstone; but here is the final effort of the far north—an unloved effort tossed up cynically with a sigh and a dusting off of the hands. Here is where the taiga gives up.

    While not a perfect model, it does provide interesting food for thought and sheds new light on many a phenomenon.

  133. @Anonymous

    The new system will either not make holding a job a cause of infertility or it won’t have jobs. No jobs is possible under systems like subsistence farming, which was the system in much of Mexico before NAFTA made it uneconomic.
     
    Subsistence farming is a horrible way of life.

    Subsistence farming is a horrible way of life.

    Yep. Tried it once.

    Counterinsurgency

  134. @obwandiyag
    Yeah, right. I bet you picked tomatoes farmworker-style. More internet lying.

    Idiot. You know nothing about what America once was. After you all leave, we will make it so again.

  135. @Reg Cæsar

    “For the most part, we, as Americans, have grown [cheap]. We don’t like to go out there and [pay] like that,” he said.
     

    we, as Americans, have grown [cheap]. We don’t like to go out there and [pay] like that,

    That’s what’s called rationalization, isn’t it? And When in doubt – ask Ayn Rand! would be the other appropriate slogan here, right?

  136. @Daniel H
    I applied for several jobs where it was made clear that they weren’t hiring non-Hispanics no matter how low the pay.

    My hunch, this is very common out there. Americans being discriminated against - in their own country - because of their nationality. I wish we had documentation that could prove this.

    And as difficult as it is for blue collar whites to compete with Mexicans it is much worse for Black Americans. What a sick country we are. Or more correctly, we are not a country. The American nation is dead.

    The American nation is dead.

    That’s the point, where Steve Sailers “Citizenship”-idea fits in quite nicely – it would mean to (re)construct a US-American consciousness. The alternative being the new world-citizenship with no local or communal or regional or national responsibilities whatsoever – this being clearly the easy way out for DaveGoodhart’s globally oriented Somewheres – the upper 15 % of the US lets say.

  137. @Dan sickles
    I worked in landscaping in Colorado in the 90s and there are plenty of hippies and rednecks who are willing to do that kind of work. I applied for several jobs where it was made clear that they weren’t hiring non-Hispanics no matter how low the pay. Some of the clients prefer having whites do the work. They treat you like a blacksmith at colonial Williamsburg or something, but many just want the crews of mestizo helots to come and do their thing and quietly leave without any sort of human interaction.
    Cheap foreign labor doesn’t fill any vital role in the economy. It allows the upper crust to live like rich people in the rest of the world, with armies of docile servants creating their McMansions and elaborate landscaping. It’s especially absurd to see this in a fragile unsustainable environment like the Colorado Rockies. Maybe these folk, who I’m sure are handwringing about climate change, should take some of their precious open space and build barracks for their helots.

    Very interesting. Thanks for posting this stuff!

  138. @Barnard
    That doesn't correspond with what I have heard from several people who have lived in Denver, so I looked it up. Where do you live that you consider 60 inches of snow a year "very little?"

    https://www.bestplaces.net/climate/city/colorado/denver

    I guess the weather has changed a little from the ’80-’90 period when I lived there: 12 inches of rain, 40 inches of snow, and 280 sunny days.

    We’d refer to solar snowplowing. You get up in the morning for work with a 1 or 2 inch white blanket of snow covering the grass (it might be April or October), the sun would rise in the sky, and the snow was gone by mid-morning. (The ground isn’t frozen, so the snow melts on road pavement.) In the winter, it might snow overnight, with a similar result, but only 45 degrees and sunny at lunchtime, instead of 65.

  139. @Intelligent Dasein
    I just want to second this comment. Every word of it is correct.

    It really is all about the money. All the ills and evils of SJWism, the Affirmative Action, the special treatment, the welfare---it's all paid for with debt-based fiat and social-democratic scrip, i.e. wealth redistribution. The free market would not produce these things. In a world of hard money and market-based interest rates, none of it could exist.

    It's occurred to me recently that this point cannot be repeated too often. The culture wars are, really and truly, not about culture at all. They're about what kind of money we're going to have. Hard money, whose chief purpose is to act as a medium of exchange for spreading around the fruits of legitimate labor; or soft money, which functions as political payola for special interest groups and connected cronies.

    The battle will ultimately be decided here. Everything else is just cutting off the heads of the hydra. If we can address the money problem the rest will wither away on its own.

    Well said and excellent hard money/soft money insight.

  140. @obwandiyag
    Yeah, right. Do you actually know any Americans? Do you know how weak they are? Americans cannot last 4 hours picking tomatoes. Period. No matter how much you pay them. Not because they don't want to. But because they are too weak.

    Like you. You wouldn't last 4 hours picking tomatoes at speed. Unassailable fact.

    That’s it, you’re off to the commenters to ignore bin with Corvinus and Tiny Duck.

  141. @Jus' Sayin'...
    Construction work requires clothing that more or less covers one's body. In my late twenties and early thirties I worked on a pile driving crew, during some extremely hot New England summers. The work was usually eight to four with a half hour lunch break at noon. Everyone on the crew worked wearing a heavy, long sleeved shirt, heavy pants, thick gloves, a metal hard hat, and boots. We all did this even though the work was strenuous, the temperatures often reached 100 degrees, and the humidity could be what is usually described as oppressive.

    The reasons are obvious if one has any familiarity with this kind of work. Boiling hot creosote vapor was constantly sprayed off the piles when the hammer hit. It could burn off layers of skin if one was not protected. Handling thick rope and cable raised a constant threat of rope burns. Objects occasionally fell or were flung by machinery into areas where we might be working. Finally, there was a constant risk of falls, scrapes, and bruises that might have been serious had we all not been fully covered.

    I was the youngest guy on this crew. Most were in their forties and fifties, but a couple were pushing seventy or more. All had raised families on the money they earned in construction. All were native-born Americans of European descent except one, a Canadian of Irish descent. The pay and benefits were good, enough to raise a family on. The owner/operator of the rig really did treat his regular workers like they were close friends or family.

    Now, with unemployment rampant among the native-born, unskilled laborers in the same area where I once worked and still live today, I see cheap Indio, immigrant labor, none of whom have enough English to be able to work safe+ly and do the work properly doing jobs that native-born workers should be doing. The only reason is to squeeze out a few bucks more profit for the owners or save filthy rich pigs money building their crappy McMansions.

    No mention of any of this in the debates though. Trump has proven nothing more than a blowhard liar. The presidency is up for grabs to anyone who demonstrates real concern for the working people of this country. But apparently the political class and establishment of this country are incapable of producing such a person. All we can look forward to is either a slow decline into decay, corruption, and tyraany or a catastrophic and violent collapse. I'd prefer the latter.

    You pay a grown American man with a family or seeking one $25/hr and he won’t stay unskilled for long.

  142. Anonymous[344] • Disclaimer says:

    As with most companies featured in “My small business can’t find enough unskilled laborers to do X” articles, the company website itself features no job postings, which I always find suspicious. Has anyone managed to find an actual job ad for this Ellison fellow’s specific company?

    Ellison said he had come to see his hardworking men more as family than employees.

    For much of human history, family was a group of people whom you could use as cheap and loyal labor, because people will tolerate things from family that they would never tolerate from anyone else.

    People on this thread have brought up welfare, snowflakes, and lack of affordable h0using(due to restrictive zoning) as threads of the current malaise. To them I’ll add the general devaluation of low-skill labor. I think a lot of journalists view people who work in dirty/outdoor jobs with as much or more contempt as they view people who don’t work at all, as if they’ve created a new caste of untouchables. Think of those stories about former TV stars working at Home Depot, as if that’s something to be ashamed of. And if landscaping jobs are ones that “Americans just won’t do”, what does that make the few Americans who are willing to do them? Less American?

    A lot of the kids now entering the workforce have lived an air-conditioned life. They never go outside, even to play. Many new houses are built to take up as much of the lot as possible, with minuscule backyards that function more as zen gardens for overworked parents than playgrounds for children. Until recently, kids thought of the outdoors as somewhere you went to have fun. I’m not so sure that’s true anymore. So I can imagine it would be a pretty big culture shock to be given a rake and told to spent the day outdoors. But I blame the parents more than the kids.

    • Replies: @Jim Don Bob
    I blame the moms. I tried to make my daughters go into the backyard once a week and pick up the dog's poop. My (now ex) wife would not hear of it.
  143. @Anonymous
    As with most companies featured in "My small business can't find enough unskilled laborers to do X" articles, the company website itself features no job postings, which I always find suspicious. Has anyone managed to find an actual job ad for this Ellison fellow's specific company?

    Ellison said he had come to see his hardworking men more as family than employees.
     
    For much of human history, family was a group of people whom you could use as cheap and loyal labor, because people will tolerate things from family that they would never tolerate from anyone else.

    People on this thread have brought up welfare, snowflakes, and lack of affordable h0using(due to restrictive zoning) as threads of the current malaise. To them I'll add the general devaluation of low-skill labor. I think a lot of journalists view people who work in dirty/outdoor jobs with as much or more contempt as they view people who don't work at all, as if they've created a new caste of untouchables. Think of those stories about former TV stars working at Home Depot, as if that's something to be ashamed of. And if landscaping jobs are ones that "Americans just won't do", what does that make the few Americans who are willing to do them? Less American?

    A lot of the kids now entering the workforce have lived an air-conditioned life. They never go outside, even to play. Many new houses are built to take up as much of the lot as possible, with minuscule backyards that function more as zen gardens for overworked parents than playgrounds for children. Until recently, kids thought of the outdoors as somewhere you went to have fun. I'm not so sure that's true anymore. So I can imagine it would be a pretty big culture shock to be given a rake and told to spent the day outdoors. But I blame the parents more than the kids.

    I blame the moms. I tried to make my daughters go into the backyard once a week and pick up the dog’s poop. My (now ex) wife would not hear of it.

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