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Washington Post: "The Middle Class Took America to the Moon. Then Something Went Horribly Wrong."
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Astronaut James McDivitt in Downey, CA 1964

Commenter Ezra points to this from the Washington Post:

Why America’s middle class is lost

The middle class took America to the moon. Then something went horribly wrong.

Written by Jim Tankersley

DOWNEY, CALIF. — One day in 1967, Bob Thompson sprayed foam on a hunk of metal in a cavernous factory south of Los Angeles. And then another day, not too long after, he sat at a long wood bar with a black-and-white television hanging over it, and he watched that hunk of metal land a man on the moon.

On July 20, 1969 — the day of the landing — Thompson sipped his Budweiser and thought about all the people who had ever stared at that moon. Kings and queens and Jesus Christ himself. He marveled at how when it came time to reach it, the job started in Downey. The bartender wept.

On a warm day, almost a half-century later, Thompson curled his mouth beneath a white beard and talked about the bar that fell to make way for a freeway, the space-age factory that closed down and the town that is still waiting for its next great economic rocket, its new starship to the middle class.

They’ve waited more than a decade in Downey. They’ve tried all the usual tricks to bring good-paying jobs back to the 77-acre plot of dirt where once stood a factory that made moon landers and, later, space shuttles. Nothing brought back the good jobs.

Yes, the stock market is soaring, the unemployment rate is finally retreating after the Great Recession and the economy added 321,000 jobs last month. But all that growth has done nothing to boost pay for the typical American worker. Average wages haven’t risen over the last year, after adjusting for inflation. Real household median income is still lower than it was when the recession ended.

Make no mistake: The American middle class is in trouble.

That trouble started decades ago, well before the 2008 financial crisis, and it is rooted in shifts far more complicated than the simple tax-and-spend debates that dominate economic policymaking in Washington.

August 1969

It used to be that when the U.S. economy grew, workers up and down the economic ladder saw their incomes increase, too. But over the past 25 years, the economy has grown 83 percent, after adjusting for inflation — and the typical family’s income hasn’t budged. In that time, corporate profits doubled as a share of the economy. Workers today produce nearly twice as many goods and services per hour on the job as they did in 1989, but as a group, they get less of the nation’s economic pie. In 81 percent of America’s counties, the median income is lower today than it was 15 years ago.

In this new reality, a smaller share of Americans enjoy the fruits of an expanding economy. This isn’t a fluke of the past few years — it’s woven into the very structure of the economy. And even though Republicans and Democrats keep promising to help the middle class reclaim the prosperity it grew accustomed to after World War II, their prescriptions aren’t working.

From the Great Depression through the 1980s, American recessions and recoveries followed a pattern: Employers shed jobs when the economy turned south but added them back quickly once it recovered. That changed in the early 1990s and worsened through the 2000s. Jobs came back more slowly, if at all. Even before the 2008 crisis, the 2000s were on track to be the weakest decade for job creation since the Labor Department started tracking the statistics. The great mystery is: What happened? Why did the economy stop boosting ordinary Americans in the way it once did?

The answer is complicated, and it’s the reason why tax cuts, stimulus spending and rock-bottom interest rates haven’t jolted the middle class back to its postwar prosperity.

Downey illustrates the nation’s struggle to resurrect that shared prosperity, and it reminds us what the economy has lost.

… Thompson’s rise mirrored the plant’s, which mirrored Downey’s, which mirrored Southern California’s, which mirrored America’s. North American won the Apollo contract in 1961 and ramped up to 25,000 workers, including production grunts, accountants and engineers. A lot of them bought houses in Downey, big adobe split-levels with lush green lawns. …

By 1990, there were nearly 200,000 aerospace workers in Los Angeles County alone, and the local median income had risen almost 20 percent since 1970, after adjusting for inflation. Then things cratered. The Cold War ended, and defense cuts starved the industry. More than half the county’s aerospace workers lost their jobs over the next decade, and when they found new ones, they weren’t nearly as good. The county’s median income fell more than 10 percent — and stayed there.

In Downey today, “we have a lot of restaurants,” Thompson said. “There’s a lot of minimum wage. People take those jobs.”

Thompson now runs the Downey Historical Society, a dimly lit relic stuffed with space memorabilia. He sat in his office, amid model rockets and black-and-white posters of prop planes, next to a playground called Apollo Park. His wistfulness faded, and he turned, instead, to hope — hope that his country would reclaim its past glory, if not economically then at least astronomically.

I believe, he said, that Americans will walk on Mars someday.

He’s just not sure how they’ll get there.

Ezra comments:

Speaking of MSM obliviousness, heres a long WaPo feature about the decline of the American middle class.

Now, it goes w/o saying that immigration is never mentioned as a possible reason. That’s par for the course. But the kicker is that the reporter focuses on Downey, CA. Downey! That’s almost the definition of chutzpah.

Here’s Downey’s non-Hispanic white share of the population:

1980: 77.4%

1990: 53.8%

2000: 28.7%

2010: 17.7%

Here’s Downey’s Hispanic share of the population:

1980: 16.8%

1990: 32.3%

2000: 57.9%

2010: 70.7%

Downey itself isn’t particularly poor. In fact here’s a 2013 PBS article half-heartedly referring to Downey as the “Mexican-American Beverly Hills:”

These include Whittier, West Covina, pockets of Orange County, and Downey, “Which is often referred to by Mexican Americans themselves as the Mexican American Beverly Hills,” Vallejo says.

Okay, so it’s not quite Beverly Hills. Downey has a mix of more and less affluent neighborhoods, with property values generally higher on the north end of town. But with a median annual household income of more than $60,000 … it’s earned its reputation as a middle class Latino stronghold.

But if Downey is your giant group’s Beverly Hills, well, the huge growth of your group may help explain one (apparently unmentionable) reason behind “Why America’s middle class is lost.”

Is the concept of supply and demand when it comes to wages v. housing costs really that impenetrable?

***

Here’s some recent news from Downey, via the Los Angeles Times on November 13, 2014:

Downey Unified School District settles transgender discrimination claim

By ADOLFO FLORES

[Keywords:] Minority Groups Feminism Discrimination U.S. Department of Education

California school district agrees to protect transgender student, teach other students about gender identity

California school district settles claim that it discriminated against a transgender student

A California school district settled a claim Tuesday with the U.S. Department of Education’s Office for Civil Rights that alleged officials discriminated against a transgender elementary school student.

The Downey Unified School District agreed, among other things, to give the student access to female-dedicated facilities, to ensure that the student isn’t disciplined for being transgendered and to provide students with age-appropriate information on gender identity, according to a press release from the U.S. Department of Education.

The school district signed the agreement without admitting it violated federal laws and before an investigation from the federal agency’s Office for Civil Rights could be completed.

“Our federal civil rights laws protect all students from sex-based discrimination and harassment,” said Catherine E. Lhamon, assistant secretary for civil rights.

The complaint alleged that the school district failed to adequately respond to harassment that the transgender student faced from her peers. It also said that staff disciplined the elementary school student for wearing makeup, discouraged her from speaking about her gender identity with classmates and suggested that she transfer to another school.

Read a copy of the agreement here.

***

By the way, North American Aviation’s list of projects is likely even more iconic than Lockheed’s:

North American Aviation was a major American aerospace manufacturer, responsible for a number of historic aircraft, including the T-6 Texan trainer, the P-51 Mustang fighter, the B-25 Mitchell bomber, the F-86 Sabre jet fighter, the X-15 rocket plane, and the XB-70, as well as Apollo Command and Service Module, the second stage of the Saturn V rocket, the Space Shuttle orbiter and the B-1 Lancer. Through a series of mergers and sales, North American Aviation became part of Rockwell International and is now part of Boeing.

I suspect Lockheed, which was located next to the movie industry, played the PR game better.

 
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  1. There is really no mystery. Nafta, Gatt, and the 1965 Immigration act, all made in Washington DC, explain a big chunk of the problem — a third? two-thirds? who knows? — with the remainder a result of new labor saving technologies. You can’t stop advances in technology — who would want to — but you can amend the 1937 Fair Labor Standards Act to compensate for steadily rising worker productivity. Amend it how? Legislate a family-friendly six-hour day with triple-pay for overtime.

    The resulting platform:

    1. An immigration moratorium (pause, time-out) — in return for amnesty, if that’s what it takes.

    2. A “labor-price-equalization-tax” on imports from low-wage countries like China (yes, old-fashioned protectionism, the only tried-and-true way to protect American wages).

    3. A six-hour day with triple-pay for overtime.

    The only other legislative solution I can imagine would be wage subsidies financed by a graduated expenditure tax, two things which we haven’t yet learned how to do. Planks 1, 2, and 3 on the other hand are simple as pie.

    I’ll get off my hobby horse now.

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    Re your #3: as a start, the government could enforce current hours and overtime laws. How many corporate employees work 40 hour work weeks now? How many get overtime?

    Make exceptions for employees in the highest tax bracket and for those who own 1% or more of the company employing them. Everyone else ought to get overtime for >40 hours per week.
    , @Sam Haysom
    Why not a four hour day with quadruple overtime. This is really ridiculous. Strong economy, feather bedding, protectionism pick at most two if you are lucky.
  2. I can’t read it yet. It’s too sad. Maybe tomorrow.

    Thomas Edsall is writing op-eds in the NY Times that show a dim perception of the concerns of the white working class and why they no longer vote for the party of “So Long White Boy.”

    • Replies: @Rifleman

    Thomas Edsall is writing op-eds in the NY Times that show a dim perception of the concerns of the white working class and why they no longer vote for the party of “So Long White Boy.”
     
    Meanwhile Edsall is a stereotypical example of a really ugly looking White guy.

    Is there some kind of psychological game going on when completely - extremely - White people must obsessively write anti-White screeds on a regular basis?
  3. Like 1980 Miami, Downey’s wealth, such as it is, is likely benefiting from an infusion of funny munny.

    Note that Downey is the HQ of the wildly successful Del Records, whose roster of Mexican-American corrido singers constantly churns out bromancey odes to cartel bosses.

    Start Googling the name of its CEO, Angel del Villar, to see what the undernews is.

  4. Er, expending huge lots of money so that a few people can visit a really big rock wasn’t going to help preserve the middle class.

  5. It wasn’t the middle class that got the US to the moon. It was about 100,000 employees of NASA. Some of whom learned very esoteric technical matters. Then were layed-off without any ceremony when Apollo ended. End of Soviet Union meant end of space rivalry so national scale space programs of the type that occurred in the Cold War can’t get budgeted.

    Steve, you can lay everything at the doorstep of immigration. I can’t find good pizza in Los Angeles, it’s probably the Mexicans’ fault, too.

  6. It could also have something to do with the group of people who didn’t want us to go to the moon the first time, that being Africanus Bellcurvius and their civil rights agitators:

    • Replies: @William Badwhite
    Clearly you're not familiar with the Old Negro Space Program:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6xJzAYYrX8
  7. @WhatEvvs
    I can't read it yet. It's too sad. Maybe tomorrow.

    Thomas Edsall is writing op-eds in the NY Times that show a dim perception of the concerns of the white working class and why they no longer vote for the party of "So Long White Boy."

    Thomas Edsall is writing op-eds in the NY Times that show a dim perception of the concerns of the white working class and why they no longer vote for the party of “So Long White Boy.”

    Meanwhile Edsall is a stereotypical example of a really ugly looking White guy.

    Is there some kind of psychological game going on when completely – extremely – White people must obsessively write anti-White screeds on a regular basis?

    • Replies: @WhatEvvs
    Edsall ain't Brad Pitt, that's true.

    Is there some kind of psychological game going on when completely – extremely – White people must obsessively write anti-White screeds on a regular basis?

     

    I don't understand this. Edsall isn't writing anti-White screeds. He's saying the Dems should heed the concerns of the WWC (white working class).

    Right now the closest thing to a white working class warrior is Elizabeth Warren. I would actually vote for her just to balance things out. She is saying the truth about how fat cats rule our society. I doubt she'd be able to do anything about it as President, but she might say a few decent things.

  8. Now, it goes w/o saying that immigration is never mentioned as a possible reason.

    Quite a few German immigrants helped America get to the moon.

    • Replies: @syonredux

    Quite a few German immigrants helped America get to the moon.
     
    Last time I checked, the 12 million plus illegal aliens in the USA were not German rocketry experts.....
    , @Delmar Jackson
    We have a visa program that allows people with outstanding skills or knowledge to come here. They have to be exceptional and prove it. Not just have notes from their mothers and immigration attorneys. Those German rocket scientists would have been the type of immigrants that visa program was intended for. But we do not need other visa program that are almost entirely riddled with fraud, or the importation of millions of mediocre , grievance ridden, burdensome people, we have an oversupply of them in Washington.
  9. It wasn’t the middle class that got the US to the moon. It was about 100,000 employees of NASA.

    Are you lumping in the workers and engineers in the civilian aerospace industry, or does that figure just include employees of NASA?

  10. You really think this is all about immigration?

    Sure, it doesn’t help things. I’m in favor of building a giant fence and deporting illegals. But you really think the decline of the union movement, laws making it easier to hire and fire workers, tax cuts on the rich, Wall Street’s financial engineering, and all the rest have nothing to do with it?

    I mean, not every problem is due to excess Mexican immigration. It exists, it’s bad, and it’s hurting a lot of people. But there’s a lot more rot in the system, a lot more things hurting the average American, and a lot of them are done by the businessmen conservatives seem so fond of.

    • Replies: @AnAnon
    "Sure, it doesn’t help things. I’m in favor of building a giant fence and deporting illegals. But you really think the decline of the union movement, laws making it easier to hire and fire workers, tax cuts on the rich, Wall Street’s financial engineering, and all the rest have nothing to do with it?" - Destroying labor scarcity is directly responsible for the fate of both the unions, and making it easier to fire workers, and the resulting transfer of wealth from the middle class to the wealthiest few is directly responsible for allowing them to buy laws more favorable to them. I'd say that those are effects, not causes.
  11. Er, expending huge lots of money so that a few people can visit a really big rock wasn’t going to help preserve the middle class.

    The Apollo program didn’t make America a great society, notwithstanding some cool technologies that came from it. The fact that we could go to the Moon was a symbol of how great America was. Today, you need to make sure there are enough black transgendered Muslims or else the program will never work.

    As a few other posters said, immigration is a big part of the problem, but not the whole problem. I would say the biggest reasons are Cultural Marxism and loss of (white) American pride and Christian ethics. A lot of the smaller problems flow from these IMO.

    • Replies: @Rifleman

    I would say the biggest reasons are Cultural Marxism
     
    Of course you would because thats the bizarre claim so many right wing White guys make online.

    You would of course be wrong because so called cultural maxism doesn't really exist except in the minds of paranoids and their imaginary friends.

    Cultural CAPITALISM on the other hand rules the world and cultural capitalism wants America to be a low wage labor zone filled with massively indebted consumers.

    No borders, low tax, low wage and a blending of peoples and lands to serve the investor class and the corporations.

    It's not even a conspiracy. Its obvious and its everywhere.
  12. @Rifleman

    Now, it goes w/o saying that immigration is never mentioned as a possible reason.
     
    Quite a few German immigrants helped America get to the moon.

    Quite a few German immigrants helped America get to the moon.

    Last time I checked, the 12 million plus illegal aliens in the USA were not German rocketry experts…..

    • Replies: @JSM
    More like 40 million.
  13. I had only heard of Downey before because that’s where Metallica was founded. Front man James Hetfield grew up there. It goes without saying that only a majority-white town could have spawned that type of music.

    • Replies: @fredyetagain aka superhonky
    I live down in OC now, but grew up in Downey. For people who only know the city as it is now, it's hard for me to give them an idea of what it was like as recently as the 1980's. Practically no blacks then. Actually, I understand there are still not many blacks there now, in spite of the fact (or perhaps because of the fact) that it's gone almost wholly Latino.
    So far as musical groups from Downey, I see the obligatory Carpenters references (of course) but no mention of the roots-rockabilly pioneers the Blasters. Great band, and another example of the type of band that probably would only spring from a majority-white community.
    , @William Badwhite
    "I had only heard of Downey before because that’s where Metallica was founded. Front man James Hetfield grew up there. It goes without saying that only a majority-white town could have spawned that type of music."

    Also Dave & Phil Alvin of The Blasters. Great band, great music.
  14. Quite a few German immigrants helped America get to the moon.

    I suppose Werner Von Braun was technically a German immigrant. But in reality he was more like war booty. I imagine other top German scientists were in the same boat.

    • Replies: @yaqub the mad scientist
    They were war booty. I know a fellow whose grandfather was one of those scientists flown in. They were basically told that in exchange for not being Nuremberged, they would work for America and have nice cottages in a place called Huntsville, Alabama.
    , @syonredux

    I suppose Werner Von Braun was technically a German immigrant. But in reality he was more like war booty. I imagine other top German scientists were in the same boat.
     
    Willing booty. von Braun and his associates knew that they were either going to be taken by the Soviets or by the Americans.They picked the Americans as the safer alternative:

    The Soviet Army was about 160 km (99 mi) from Peenemünde in the spring of 1945 when von Braun assembled his planning staff and asked them to decide how and to whom they should surrender. Afraid of the well-known Soviet cruelty to prisoners of war, von Braun and his staff decided to try to surrender to the Americans. Kammler had ordered relocation of von Braun's team to central Germany; however, a conflicting order from an army chief ordered them to join the army and fight. Deciding that Kammler's order was their best bet to defect to the Americans, von Braun fabricated documents and transported 500 of his affiliates to the area around Mittelwerk, where they resumed their work. For fear of their documents being destroyed by the SS, von Braun ordered the blueprints to be hidden in an abandoned mine shaft in the Harz mountain range.[42]

    While on an official trip in March, von Braun suffered a complicated fracture of his left arm and shoulder in a car accident after his driver fell asleep at the wheel. His injuries were serious, but he insisted that his arm be set in a cast so he could leave the hospital. Due to this neglect of the injury he had to be hospitalized again a month later where his bones had to be re-broken and re-aligned.[42]

    In April, as the Allied forces advanced deeper into Germany, Kammler ordered the science team to be moved by train into the town of Oberammergau in the Bavarian Alps where they were closely guarded by the SS with orders to execute the team if they were about to fall into enemy hands. However, von Braun managed to convince SS Major Kummer to order the dispersion of the group into nearby villages so that they would not be an easy target for U.S. bombers.[42]

    On May 2, 1945, upon finding an American private from the U.S. 44th Infantry Division, von Braun's brother and fellow rocket engineer, Magnus, approached the soldier on a bicycle, calling out in broken English: "My name is Magnus von Braun. My brother invented the V-2. We want to surrender."
     
  15. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    SpaceX has actually done more towards opening up the space frontier in the past 5 years than NASA has in decades. SpaceX is making fairly good progress towards reusability. Not that this matters, since obviously this is not really about the state of progress in space access, but rather about immigration.

  16. @H
    Er, expending huge lots of money so that a few people can visit a really big rock wasn’t going to help preserve the middle class.

    The Apollo program didn't make America a great society, notwithstanding some cool technologies that came from it. The fact that we could go to the Moon was a symbol of how great America was. Today, you need to make sure there are enough black transgendered Muslims or else the program will never work.

    As a few other posters said, immigration is a big part of the problem, but not the whole problem. I would say the biggest reasons are Cultural Marxism and loss of (white) American pride and Christian ethics. A lot of the smaller problems flow from these IMO.

    I would say the biggest reasons are Cultural Marxism

    Of course you would because thats the bizarre claim so many right wing White guys make online.

    You would of course be wrong because so called cultural maxism doesn’t really exist except in the minds of paranoids and their imaginary friends.

    Cultural CAPITALISM on the other hand rules the world and cultural capitalism wants America to be a low wage labor zone filled with massively indebted consumers.

    No borders, low tax, low wage and a blending of peoples and lands to serve the investor class and the corporations.

    It’s not even a conspiracy. Its obvious and its everywhere.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Tom Piatak calls it "Pottersville" after "It's a Wonderful Life."
    , @Dutch Boy
    Cultural Marxism and Cultural Capitalism are blood brothers. Both seek the moral destruction of society, one for revolution, one for profit.
    , @Lurker

    Cultural CAPITALISM on the other hand rules the world and cultural capitalism wants America to be a low wage labor zone filled with massively indebted consumers.
     
    But Cultural CAPITALISM can't say that out loud so it uses Cultural Marxism as its public belief system.
  17. @Rifleman

    I would say the biggest reasons are Cultural Marxism
     
    Of course you would because thats the bizarre claim so many right wing White guys make online.

    You would of course be wrong because so called cultural maxism doesn't really exist except in the minds of paranoids and their imaginary friends.

    Cultural CAPITALISM on the other hand rules the world and cultural capitalism wants America to be a low wage labor zone filled with massively indebted consumers.

    No borders, low tax, low wage and a blending of peoples and lands to serve the investor class and the corporations.

    It's not even a conspiracy. Its obvious and its everywhere.

    Tom Piatak calls it “Pottersville” after “It’s a Wonderful Life.”

  18. acienda,

    NASA was spending 1% of GDP. The number of people working on Apollo was a lot more than 100k. The vast majority were not NASA employees.

    The Apollo pieces were built all over the place. For example, the Lunar Rover was developed at a Delco plant in Goleta. The LEM mission computer was developed at a Delco plant in Milwaukee.

    Many slide rules were used.

    • Replies: @Hacienda
    During Apollo, NASA's budget was 4% of GDP.

    I get that installed manufacturing base is key part of space program.

    At the Apollo launches NASA had two classes of seating. One for VIPs and another for RAMs (Raggedy Ass Masses). The Apollo NASA loved you- the bourgeoisie. Today's NASA loves you more.
  19. Has it worked it out that bad for them–the cognitive elite? Without a solid White middle class, what’s stood in their way of socializing their risks and privatizing their profit? They have become unbelievably wealthy, face no consequences for their failings and their progeny are being raised in two parent households that would make Ward and June gasp with envy. These progeny are protected and advanced and life is good for those on top. They certainly don’t face the consequences of Title 8 or Hispanic immigration. Much of what we abhor has worked out nicely for them.

    The solid White middle class of the US pre-1965 was built on Unions, Manufacturing and Patriarchy. All three have been decimated or massively transformed (i.e. Unions) into instruments of the elite. Both political parties have been in agreement. There’s been no opposition (other than Buchanan, briefly). Charles Murray recent book has documented what’s happened to the White middle class (defined broadly, of course) and no group has been as undermined as them. Woe to us.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    The solid White middle class of the US pre-1965 was built on Unions, Manufacturing and Patriarchy.
     
    I thought it was restricting immigration in the 1920s and crippling competitors in WWII that built the middle class.

    Unions-- oh yeah, those guys who were anti-black then pro-black, anti-immigrant then pro-immigrant, anti-woman then pro-woman, anti-gay then pro-gay. Yeah, the straight white workingman's best friend…
  20. Cultural CAPITALISM on the other hand rules the world and cultural capitalism wants America to be a low wage labor zone filled with massively indebted consumers.

    No borders, low tax, low wage and a blending of peoples and lands to serve the investor class and the corporations.

    American capitalists and politicians weren’t always so pro-globalist.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    American capitalists and politicians weren’t always so pro-globalist.

     

    To say the least. Farmers and Southerners were once the free-traders, damning that protective tariff.
    , @Anonymous
    Capitalists and politicians have generally been as globalist as possible as the technical and social means permit over the past 500 years since Columbus.

    They couldn't be as globalist while the USSR was around because half the globe was communist.
    , @Bobbala
    It's amazing how many people confuse freedom with fascism.
  21. 2014 America: we can’t take you to the moon, but have you seen our Gender Studies Department?

  22. The twin evils destroying America are immigration and free trade. While immigration is the greater curse of the two in that it’s destroying the very fabric of society and its effects are irreversible, the main culprit from the economic perspective is free trade. In that sense it’s incorrect to mention immigration in connection to this story.

  23. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    “Er, expending huge lots of money so that a few people can visit a really big rock wasn’t going to help preserve the middle class.”

    How so? We seem to be trying to do a lot of things today that are manifestly a lot harder than going to the moon, like creating world peace, ending world poverty, making sure that all children are above average, building the New World Order. Because these things are harder than going to the moon (we did that in under a decade), are you saying these things are even more a threat to the middle class? At least the moon program created a lot of middle class jobs and all those fit-for-suburbia spinoffs, the velcros and the tangs… lots of other stuff as well. War is the father of invention, and all that. A lot of this new stuff today just sucks money from the middle class, with little to show in return.

  24. As usual each NYT writer forgets (or is such a damn fool that he never knew) that his own team caused whatever problem it is he now complains about. Downey suffers because the space program is gone? It was the Democrats who shut down NASA. Starting in 1969 Walter Mondale (later Democrat nominee for President) led the charge against NASA and for redirecting all aerospace funding to social spending in the Senate with Proxmire and Fulbright as his henchmen. Doesn’t anyone at the New York Times remember how on the eve of Apollo 11 the liberals sent (black minister of the social gospel) Ralph Abernathy to NASA (where the TV newsies were waiting around, and willing to videotape sideshows as well as the main event) with a troupe of wailers and illiterate sign-wavers to protest spending any money on science and exploration instead of welfare? The Democrats got what they wanted. NASA’s funds were transferred to DHEW and NASA was left with just enough to assist the USAF with the Shuttle and to keep a few NASA engineers playing with themselves in their offices, but too little to do any manned-mission work (and not much unmanned either; for example, the Viking missions to Mars were reduced from six landers to two).

    FWIW, at peak in the mid-1960’s total NASA+space-contractor employment was 400,000 and NASA had 2% of the Federal budget.

    Obviously mass immigration, and other forces too, caused the decline of Downey more even than the drawdown of the space program, but it is galling to read such tendentious drivel in the newspaper.

  25. @iSteveFan

    Quite a few German immigrants helped America get to the moon.
     
    I suppose Werner Von Braun was technically a German immigrant. But in reality he was more like war booty. I imagine other top German scientists were in the same boat.

    They were war booty. I know a fellow whose grandfather was one of those scientists flown in. They were basically told that in exchange for not being Nuremberged, they would work for America and have nice cottages in a place called Huntsville, Alabama.

    • Replies: @Wilkey
    "They were war booty. I know a fellow whose grandfather was one of those scientists flown in. They were basically told that in exchange for not being Nuremberged, they would work for America and have nice cottages in a place called Huntsville, Alabama."

    It was called Operation Paperclip. 1500 Axis scientists and engineers, many facing war crimes charges, were brought to the US. Somehow I don't think many of the 12 million illegals in the US would qualify.

    But our goal wasn't just to acquire their talents for the US - it was to deny that talent to the USSR, Germany, and others. They certainly sped up our entry into space - and for the Cold War alone that was important - but does anyone really think we wouldn't have made it to the moon without them?

    , @Art Deco
    They were basically told that in exchange for not being Nuremberged,

    I think you mean subject to de-Nazificaton courts. With a few exceptions, the Nuremburg defendants were fairly senior military officers or high officials in the security apparat, the occupation governments, the SS, &c. There were a few odd cases that seem to have been thrown in so the court could acquit someone (one a Weimar politician who spent the war in a diplomatic post in Turkey, one a mid-level official of the propaganda ministry, and one the former governor of the central bank) and Julius Streicher for being utterly grotesque. There was no one analogous to von Braun on the docket. Von Braun joined the Nazi Party in the late 1930s when it was expedient to have a membership card and the SS in 1940 for murky reasons. The rap on von Braun and and the like has been that they could have requested a transfer to get away from the slave labor system in munitions factories but did not (and I suppose you could have added humbug charges like 'waging aggressive war" for which Adm. Donitz and Dr. Schacht were indicted).
    , @David In TN
    About 20 years ago I was working in North Alabama and one day I went to the Huntsville library. There was a section with foreign newspapers. I saw a man about 80 years old reading a German newspaper. He looked pleased.
  26. @OsRazor
    Has it worked it out that bad for them--the cognitive elite? Without a solid White middle class, what's stood in their way of socializing their risks and privatizing their profit? They have become unbelievably wealthy, face no consequences for their failings and their progeny are being raised in two parent households that would make Ward and June gasp with envy. These progeny are protected and advanced and life is good for those on top. They certainly don't face the consequences of Title 8 or Hispanic immigration. Much of what we abhor has worked out nicely for them.

    The solid White middle class of the US pre-1965 was built on Unions, Manufacturing and Patriarchy. All three have been decimated or massively transformed (i.e. Unions) into instruments of the elite. Both political parties have been in agreement. There's been no opposition (other than Buchanan, briefly). Charles Murray recent book has documented what's happened to the White middle class (defined broadly, of course) and no group has been as undermined as them. Woe to us.

    The solid White middle class of the US pre-1965 was built on Unions, Manufacturing and Patriarchy.

    I thought it was restricting immigration in the 1920s and crippling competitors in WWII that built the middle class.

    Unions– oh yeah, those guys who were anti-black then pro-black, anti-immigrant then pro-immigrant, anti-woman then pro-woman, anti-gay then pro-gay. Yeah, the straight white workingman’s best friend…

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    You and OsRazor are both correct. Low Immigration went hand in hand with protectionism. The unions during that era (1945-73) were also strengthened with protectionism and it worked. Western Europe was eventually going to get back on its feet, but the US didn't have to open the doors so wide and let every 1st and 2nd world economy into their markets.

    Free trade/open borders + ending NASA(space program part of Defense Dept which meant no more government defense contracts and closing of many defense bases during the 90s) = current mess we're in.

    NYT "Where'd all the jobs go and why aren't they returning?"

    Dunno. Must be all those evil white males, NYT, must be. Maybe a few more Gender Relations/Diversity Programs will help solve it all, right?

    After all, the more diversity in science departments automatically means a more prosperous economy so the new prosperity is just around the corner.

    Isn't that right, NYT???

    , @Hare Krishna
    Unions plus patriarchy built the middle class.

    The 1924 Immigration Act helped black America, but hurt white America, and made the later decline of many of America's cities inevitable.
    , @OsRazor
    Sorry for not being clear. I thought I set a pretty clear demarcation pre-1965 and post-1965. Pre-1965 Unions were quite different creature compared to the public sector horror shows today. I've looked at a lot of securities filings from Midwestern manufacturing companies during the 40s-60s (documents publicly traded companies file with the SEC): what has struck me is 1) Executive pay was maybe 10-40 (really high) times of the average wage of employees, 2) Executives lived in the same communities as their employees (in nicer houses and nicer sections of the town, but still there)--they were not segregated away in gated exurbs an hour or more away and their children (when you dig further) were being educated in the same schools as their workers, 3) they operated with a fraction of the debt companies have on their books now. It's no good saying protectionism or government regulations created this economic and social scenario--the regulations back then were nothing compared to regulations now. Something else acted as a check--1) the executives themselves were of a different character--few Ivy League types, mostly public colleges, etc--and must have felt some sense of noblesse oblige, and 2) more important and more concrete fear of Union reaction clamped down on their worst instincts.

    As I said, what Unions have been transformed into is a tragedy of the first order--the so-called union today is unrecognizable to any worker of the the post-WWII era.

    Was the whole artifice based on ridiculous, unrealistic economic realities--US post-war domination without any international competition? Sure, but countries that have retained a strong workers' political force (through trade unions, etc.--I'm thinking of Germany specifically) are doing okay economically--haven't collapsed off the globe.

  27. A new Belle and Sebastian song “Nobody’s Empire” – Have these guys been reading Sailer or NRx sites?

    Nobody’s Empire

  28. As I understand Charles Murray’s point, we have created a society where people of marginal intelligence have grave difficulties making it into the middle class.

    By definition, that comprises approximately 50% of the population. It strongly impacts whites, but — given the known distribution of intelligence by groups — even more strongly impacts certain minorities.

    Illegal immigration is making this problem worse, but it isn’t creating the problem. I knew a guy who hung sheetrock for 40 years, but the last 10 years were hell, because contractors were constantly taking the low bid from people who were using illegals who in turn were paid even less.

    If we could theoretically stop low wage illegal immigration, and cause all of them to go home, then the next step is that prices would rise across the board for everyone else. Or did I miss something?

    More to the point, while I do not like the scale of illegal immigration, we are never going to mobilize the National Guard to drive these people out. They aren’t going to go away.

    • Replies: @Simon in London
    "we are never going to mobilize the National Guard to drive these people out."

    You can do it if you decide to do it.
  29. Phooey. I meant to type “MSM” rather than “NYT” but I messed up.

  30. @Rifleman

    I would say the biggest reasons are Cultural Marxism
     
    Of course you would because thats the bizarre claim so many right wing White guys make online.

    You would of course be wrong because so called cultural maxism doesn't really exist except in the minds of paranoids and their imaginary friends.

    Cultural CAPITALISM on the other hand rules the world and cultural capitalism wants America to be a low wage labor zone filled with massively indebted consumers.

    No borders, low tax, low wage and a blending of peoples and lands to serve the investor class and the corporations.

    It's not even a conspiracy. Its obvious and its everywhere.

    Cultural Marxism and Cultural Capitalism are blood brothers. Both seek the moral destruction of society, one for revolution, one for profit.

  31. @Luke Lea
    There is really no mystery. Nafta, Gatt, and the 1965 Immigration act, all made in Washington DC, explain a big chunk of the problem -- a third? two-thirds? who knows? -- with the remainder a result of new labor saving technologies. You can't stop advances in technology -- who would want to -- but you can amend the 1937 Fair Labor Standards Act to compensate for steadily rising worker productivity. Amend it how? Legislate a family-friendly six-hour day with triple-pay for overtime.

    The resulting platform:

    1. An immigration moratorium (pause, time-out) -- in return for amnesty, if that's what it takes.

    2. A "labor-price-equalization-tax" on imports from low-wage countries like China (yes, old-fashioned protectionism, the only tried-and-true way to protect American wages).

    3. A six-hour day with triple-pay for overtime.

    The only other legislative solution I can imagine would be wage subsidies financed by a graduated expenditure tax, two things which we haven't yet learned how to do. Planks 1, 2, and 3 on the other hand are simple as pie.

    I'll get off my hobby horse now.

    Re your #3: as a start, the government could enforce current hours and overtime laws. How many corporate employees work 40 hour work weeks now? How many get overtime?

    Make exceptions for employees in the highest tax bracket and for those who own 1% or more of the company employing them. Everyone else ought to get overtime for >40 hours per week.

  32. @H
    Cultural CAPITALISM on the other hand rules the world and cultural capitalism wants America to be a low wage labor zone filled with massively indebted consumers.

    No borders, low tax, low wage and a blending of peoples and lands to serve the investor class and the corporations.

    American capitalists and politicians weren't always so pro-globalist.

    American capitalists and politicians weren’t always so pro-globalist.

    To say the least. Farmers and Southerners were once the free-traders, damning that protective tariff.

  33. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Eh, it seems my post was moderated out. I think I know why, I’ve modified it:

    Here’s a good one I saw off Drudge, a great counter to “white privilege”. Lots of ups.

    So-called “White Privilege”: Forced race/culture replacement targeting All & Only white populations
    That’s our “Privilege”: No-White-Anything-Anywhere.
    Anti-whites call it “Diversity”; it’s called (….)
    WP : W(…)

    European race replacement is THE issue of the century, everything else is trivial in comparison.

  34. @H
    Cultural CAPITALISM on the other hand rules the world and cultural capitalism wants America to be a low wage labor zone filled with massively indebted consumers.

    No borders, low tax, low wage and a blending of peoples and lands to serve the investor class and the corporations.

    American capitalists and politicians weren't always so pro-globalist.

    Capitalists and politicians have generally been as globalist as possible as the technical and social means permit over the past 500 years since Columbus.

    They couldn’t be as globalist while the USSR was around because half the globe was communist.

  35. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    “…so called cultural maxism doesn’t really exist …”

    Cultural Marxism might not exist, but something sure exists. Sometime people call it “PC”. Sometimes, quietly at night, you hear people whisper about The Narrative. Some dare call it the Megaphone. In my more light-hearted moments I think about “universal education for failure”. Call it what you will.

    “…massively indebted consumers.”

    This is surely true. The goal seems to be to make wage slaves of us all and maximize personal debt. I suppose it’s cheaper and easier to create assets on paper that way (loans), then by doing things that increase real productivity.

    It’s easier and easier to feel like those hard-working Spanish peons supporting the Spanish Empire and never seeing much in return.

    “…No borders, low tax, low wage and a blending of peoples and lands to serve the investor class and the corporations.

    It’s not even a conspiracy. Its obvious and its everywhere.”

    That does kind of sound like Mexico, now that you mention it. Si, Patron!

    We went to the moon and won the Cold War so we could be turned into Mexico?

  36. @Randall Parker
    @Hacienda,

    NASA was spending 1% of GDP. The number of people working on Apollo was a lot more than 100k. The vast majority were not NASA employees.

    The Apollo pieces were built all over the place. For example, the Lunar Rover was developed at a Delco plant in Goleta. The LEM mission computer was developed at a Delco plant in Milwaukee.

    Many slide rules were used.

    During Apollo, NASA’s budget was 4% of GDP.

    I get that installed manufacturing base is key part of space program.

    At the Apollo launches NASA had two classes of seating. One for VIPs and another for RAMs (Raggedy Ass Masses). The Apollo NASA loved you- the bourgeoisie. Today’s NASA loves you more.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    "During Apollo, NASA’s budget was 4% of GDP."

    Really?

    , @Art Deco
    During Apollo, NASA’s budget was 4% of GDP.

    During the period antedating 1972, nominal appropriations for NASA were at their peak in FY 1964/65 (during the Gemini program) and stood at $5.25 bn. Nominal gross domestic product was then about $710 bn per annum, so their budget amounted to 0.74% of gdp. The relative devotion of resources would have been somewhere on the order of that of the Food Stamp program or unemployment compensation today.
  37. @Reg Cæsar

    The solid White middle class of the US pre-1965 was built on Unions, Manufacturing and Patriarchy.
     
    I thought it was restricting immigration in the 1920s and crippling competitors in WWII that built the middle class.

    Unions-- oh yeah, those guys who were anti-black then pro-black, anti-immigrant then pro-immigrant, anti-woman then pro-woman, anti-gay then pro-gay. Yeah, the straight white workingman's best friend…

    You and OsRazor are both correct. Low Immigration went hand in hand with protectionism. The unions during that era (1945-73) were also strengthened with protectionism and it worked. Western Europe was eventually going to get back on its feet, but the US didn’t have to open the doors so wide and let every 1st and 2nd world economy into their markets.

    Free trade/open borders + ending NASA(space program part of Defense Dept which meant no more government defense contracts and closing of many defense bases during the 90s) = current mess we’re in.

    NYT “Where’d all the jobs go and why aren’t they returning?”

    Dunno. Must be all those evil white males, NYT, must be. Maybe a few more Gender Relations/Diversity Programs will help solve it all, right?

    After all, the more diversity in science departments automatically means a more prosperous economy so the new prosperity is just around the corner.

    Isn’t that right, NYT???

  38. I find Ricardo’s argument against the minimum wage to be frankly bizarre. Ricardo says, by the laws of supply and demand, if wages are too high, those who offer wages lower their demand for workers, and employment falls until wages fall.
    But one can trivially turn this argument on its head. Namely, if there aren’t enough workers, wage-givers have to increase wages to attract workers to their enterprises. I.e. full employment leads to rising wages, not to lower wages & unemployment.

    Which side is correct? In a sense, both. If a government drops all tariffs, allows foreign companies to underbid domestic products, allows domestic companies to “out-source,” and imports immigrants willing to work for less money that the natives (forgetting to enforce existing minimum wage laws in the process), then, yeah, Ricardo’s argument holds. Wages fall and unemployment rises. This travesty has occurred all over the world in the last half-century, with notably catastrophic results in South America and Eastern Europe.
    But if a government keeps up the tariffs, controls immigration, and deliberately, through the pursuit of conscious national strategy, stimulates production in key sectors and trains personnel capable of filling high-tech positions, then employment and wages are both high. This is what the US did for much of its history, and what the East Asians have been doing recently.

    Now, some free market buffs say that all government is bad, etc etc. Except when it has to enforce contracts and free-trade agreements. Wow! The gall! If a government can enforce contracts and sign free-trade agreements, then it can pursue national economic strategy and raise tariffs.

    Back in the day, the US made things. No longer. National prosperity is based on production, not on services. A service economy is an oxymoron, an absurdity. Romanian cabbies, barbers, and fast food workers are just as competent as their South Korean colleagues. But they draw far lower wages. How come? Because Romania let its economy tank after 1989, while South Korea has become the world’s largest producer (per capita) of steel and ships – among other things. This, starting from scratch within living memory. South Korea was in the 18th century back in 1950. Now it’s in the 21st.

    And I tell ya one thing. They didn’t get to where they are by loving the sweet “free market,” whatever that is.

    • Replies: @Dutch Boy
    They copied the 1950s USA.
  39. The end of the Cold War reduced SoCal capital investment driven from the DoD budget dramatically, resulting in significant layoffs.

    William Frey and other demographers and UCLA economists documented the impact on SoCal communities.

    That included recycling of the aviation/defense engineers and fellow employees into newly growing network hardware and related companies along the 101 corridor as the DARPA-initiated Internet started being commercialized. Many technically-trained people also went into multimedia, centered in Santa Monica and West L.A.

    The recycling of SoCal higher income laid off engineers into other lower income industries occurred faster than similar secular transitions in Pittsburgh after their local steel industry downsized, for example.

    That helped soften the local economy income drain out of lost $80K+jobs down to new $60K jobs (YMMV) and was dramatically better than the experience in other communities that didn’t have that strong educated base or entrepreneurial bent. Those less fortunate cities saw a lot more McJobs and higher unemployment.

    The LA transition faced a countervailing impact due to the passage of NAFTA. That eviscerated many small manufacturers (and certainly also around the country) and destroyed what were once middle class jobs. Compared to aerospace, employees of those firms had lower levels of education and the companies had less robust balance sheets, so the combined effect of NAFTA and economic stresses was to downsize permanently and destroy capital.

    The collapse of home values after the peak in mid-1989 followed the DoD budget cuts. Recall the iconic Forbes cover dissecting California’s fading real estate boom. Loose lending standards and sketchy appraisals, and then the Northridge earthquake, slowed down the transition noted above.

    There were several interacting factors, prior to added deleterious impacts of immigration (recall the publicized regional ER closures due in part to immigrants and lower income patients using ER as primary care). They couldn’t be turned away, so to paraphrase Herb Stein, if it can’t go on, it stops, and the hospitals closed or shed unprofitable ERs.

    SoCal was lucky to do as well as it did, given the headwinds of defense cuts, home value collapse, NAFTA outsourcing and earthquake, prior to acting as a de facto safety valve for Mexican and Central American social pressures, magnified by OAS-induced troubles (see MS-13 gang growth).

    Now multiply that to see the impacts around the U.S. and toss in Greenspan’s easy money and Clinton’s Wall Street sellout to kill Glass-Steagall, and add W’s war lust with Cheney et al, and a lot more immigration and PC nonsense.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Some aerospace titanium workers wound up building titanium golf clubs for Callaway and other golf start-ups in northern San Diego County.
  40. @yaqub the mad scientist
    They were war booty. I know a fellow whose grandfather was one of those scientists flown in. They were basically told that in exchange for not being Nuremberged, they would work for America and have nice cottages in a place called Huntsville, Alabama.

    “They were war booty. I know a fellow whose grandfather was one of those scientists flown in. They were basically told that in exchange for not being Nuremberged, they would work for America and have nice cottages in a place called Huntsville, Alabama.”

    It was called Operation Paperclip. 1500 Axis scientists and engineers, many facing war crimes charges, were brought to the US. Somehow I don’t think many of the 12 million illegals in the US would qualify.

    But our goal wasn’t just to acquire their talents for the US – it was to deny that talent to the USSR, Germany, and others. They certainly sped up our entry into space – and for the Cold War alone that was important – but does anyone really think we wouldn’t have made it to the moon without them?

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Weren't the German rocket scientists pretty much kept behind barbed wired at an Army base near El Paso for the rest of the Forties?
    , @dixie
    "but does anyone really think we wouldn’t have made it to the moon without them?"

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Vanguard

    After the launch of USSR Sputnik, the Navy led Vanguard rocket was chosen to launch the satellite instead of the Army (German) von Braun led Redstone rocket.

    first launch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVeFkakURXM failure.
    second launch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3y_LwN5afc failure

    Only 3 success out of 11 launches.

    Meanwhile the first Redstone launch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhTJ0dYLYKc success.

    "The Redstone is what Alan Sheppard and Gus Grissom rode to orbit."
  41. @Ivy
    The end of the Cold War reduced SoCal capital investment driven from the DoD budget dramatically, resulting in significant layoffs.

    William Frey and other demographers and UCLA economists documented the impact on SoCal communities.

    That included recycling of the aviation/defense engineers and fellow employees into newly growing network hardware and related companies along the 101 corridor as the DARPA-initiated Internet started being commercialized. Many technically-trained people also went into multimedia, centered in Santa Monica and West L.A.

    The recycling of SoCal higher income laid off engineers into other lower income industries occurred faster than similar secular transitions in Pittsburgh after their local steel industry downsized, for example.

    That helped soften the local economy income drain out of lost $80K+jobs down to new $60K jobs (YMMV) and was dramatically better than the experience in other communities that didn't have that strong educated base or entrepreneurial bent. Those less fortunate cities saw a lot more McJobs and higher unemployment.

    The LA transition faced a countervailing impact due to the passage of NAFTA. That eviscerated many small manufacturers (and certainly also around the country) and destroyed what were once middle class jobs. Compared to aerospace, employees of those firms had lower levels of education and the companies had less robust balance sheets, so the combined effect of NAFTA and economic stresses was to downsize permanently and destroy capital.

    The collapse of home values after the peak in mid-1989 followed the DoD budget cuts. Recall the iconic Forbes cover dissecting California's fading real estate boom. Loose lending standards and sketchy appraisals, and then the Northridge earthquake, slowed down the transition noted above.

    There were several interacting factors, prior to added deleterious impacts of immigration (recall the publicized regional ER closures due in part to immigrants and lower income patients using ER as primary care). They couldn't be turned away, so to paraphrase Herb Stein, if it can't go on, it stops, and the hospitals closed or shed unprofitable ERs.

    SoCal was lucky to do as well as it did, given the headwinds of defense cuts, home value collapse, NAFTA outsourcing and earthquake, prior to acting as a de facto safety valve for Mexican and Central American social pressures, magnified by OAS-induced troubles (see MS-13 gang growth).

    Now multiply that to see the impacts around the U.S. and toss in Greenspan's easy money and Clinton's Wall Street sellout to kill Glass-Steagall, and add W's war lust with Cheney et al, and a lot more immigration and PC nonsense.

    Some aerospace titanium workers wound up building titanium golf clubs for Callaway and other golf start-ups in northern San Diego County.

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    The peace dividend was longer drives.
  42. @Hacienda
    During Apollo, NASA's budget was 4% of GDP.

    I get that installed manufacturing base is key part of space program.

    At the Apollo launches NASA had two classes of seating. One for VIPs and another for RAMs (Raggedy Ass Masses). The Apollo NASA loved you- the bourgeoisie. Today's NASA loves you more.

    “During Apollo, NASA’s budget was 4% of GDP.”

    Really?

    • Replies: @Hacienda
    For a few years in mid 60s. During the height of ramp up to Apollo 11. 4 year span averaged close to 4%.

    The moon shot was a gigantic deal for US and USSR. USSR had nearly as much money put into their moon shot program at a fraction of US's economic size. They lost and lost big.

    , @Hacienda
    Oops. Not GDP. Federal Budget.
  43. @Wilkey
    "They were war booty. I know a fellow whose grandfather was one of those scientists flown in. They were basically told that in exchange for not being Nuremberged, they would work for America and have nice cottages in a place called Huntsville, Alabama."

    It was called Operation Paperclip. 1500 Axis scientists and engineers, many facing war crimes charges, were brought to the US. Somehow I don't think many of the 12 million illegals in the US would qualify.

    But our goal wasn't just to acquire their talents for the US - it was to deny that talent to the USSR, Germany, and others. They certainly sped up our entry into space - and for the Cold War alone that was important - but does anyone really think we wouldn't have made it to the moon without them?

    Weren’t the German rocket scientists pretty much kept behind barbed wired at an Army base near El Paso for the rest of the Forties?

    • Replies: @Twinkie

    Weren’t the German rocket scientists pretty much kept behind barbed wired at an Army base near El Paso for the rest of the Forties?
     
    Yes. And they were pretty unhappy about it and expressed themselves as such, which led to their exposure and some public grumbling. They were sort of scientific royalty in Nazi Germany (that commanded a vast legion of slave workers) and didn't quite seem to realize that they were the defeated enemy in their new Spartan surroundings. Perhaps they should have tried Russia instead.

    Later they were moved to Huntsville, AL and had an extended stay, which was apparently a happier one.

    , @syonredux

    Weren’t the German rocket scientists pretty much kept behind barbed wired at an Army base near El Paso for the rest of the Forties?
     
    Michener's Space has some good stuff on the relocation of German scientists to the USA. One of the principal (fictional) characters is a German rocketry expert named Dieter Kolff.
  44. I did a word find on the WaPo article and not once are immigration and free trade mentioned, which says it all. Pathetic inside the Beltway groupThink at work!

    But the WaPo commentators do:

    So, I have to think that tariffs are not such a bad idea. Unfettered free trade has been, I think, a disaster. Yes, it is a complex matter to set tariffs, and I shudder to think that ruling elites would have control over what tariffs to place on what products, but, to allow low wage countries to wipe out much of our industrial base has been a disaster, for our economic integrity and security, and for our American jobs and workers. So, I say Yes to Fre Trade with Canada…and NO to free trade with China.

    One practical thing we can do RIGHT NOW, is to begin to impose a tariff on foreign oil coming from outside of North America.

    In the past few months, the price of oil has tumbled, and the key reason was due to American and Canadian success at developing new oil sources, and the decision of OPEC NOT to cut back their production, as they traditionally have, to keep the balance between supply and demand of oil, and maintaining the price of oil at the higher levels we have seen.

    • Replies: @rod1963
    Don't expect a bunch of beltway insiders to speak the truth, they just prefer to lie to the people.

    Look NAFTA, PNTR with China are two things that help kill our industrial might and crippled the white middle class. It wiped out so many of the 3rd tier manufacturers it borders on treason. It also is the source of many labor problems as well. It doesn't get mentioned anymore because it's verboten. The establishment was solidly behind it when it was promoted and still is to this day. The last MSM guy to mention got s**tcanned from CNN - Lou Dobbs.

    As a result it cannot be mentioned as the source of our economic and unemployment woes.

    Another thing that happened was during the Clinton Administration when the aerospace giants went on a acquisition binge and ingested many of the 2nd and 3rd tier companies and left us with two clueless giants - Lockheed and Boeing. This was later admitted to be a disaster for aerospace and country in general.

    Fact is we needed to keep these companies from being ingested by the giants and keep their expertise alive, we didn't.

    Thirdly - After the Russians gave up and Apollo ended, NASA never had a stable long term budget. This made it hard to keep scientists and technicians and programs died or got cut. This was a recipe for problems. Had we kept stable funding the successors of Nerva and Orion programs would be a reality today.

    Fourth - the downsizing of the military.

    And immigration had squat to do with it. That is a function mostly of Americans business class embracing short term thinking and owning the government.
  45. @Steve Sailer
    Some aerospace titanium workers wound up building titanium golf clubs for Callaway and other golf start-ups in northern San Diego County.

    The peace dividend was longer drives.

    • Replies: @vip ltd.
    Well, not to turn this into a sports column, but actually titanium didn't produce longer drives. Most golfers would hit the original Taylormade Burner steel driver (non-titanium) as far as they would any later model, given the same shaft type and length. This has been proved. As with almost everything else, marketing triumphs.
  46. @Reg Cæsar

    The solid White middle class of the US pre-1965 was built on Unions, Manufacturing and Patriarchy.
     
    I thought it was restricting immigration in the 1920s and crippling competitors in WWII that built the middle class.

    Unions-- oh yeah, those guys who were anti-black then pro-black, anti-immigrant then pro-immigrant, anti-woman then pro-woman, anti-gay then pro-gay. Yeah, the straight white workingman's best friend…

    Unions plus patriarchy built the middle class.

    The 1924 Immigration Act helped black America, but hurt white America, and made the later decline of many of America’s cities inevitable.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    The 1924 Immigration Act helped black America, but hurt white America...
     
    Lucy, you got some 'splainin' to do...
  47. 3412 Comments for this which is lots better than the white racism click bait from Kristoff which get about 500

  48. @Steve Sailer
    "During Apollo, NASA’s budget was 4% of GDP."

    Really?

    For a few years in mid 60s. During the height of ramp up to Apollo 11. 4 year span averaged close to 4%.

    The moon shot was a gigantic deal for US and USSR. USSR had nearly as much money put into their moon shot program at a fraction of US’s economic size. They lost and lost big.

  49. Globalization, robotics and cost of living ( related to government) are some major reasons Southern California lost its aerospace industry. Look at how a 787 is built today versus a DC-10 or L-1011 40 years ago. Wings are built by robots up in Seattle, cockpit in Italy, tail in Japan. In order to sell an airliner you have to farm out the work. Even military aircraft must farm out production and robots do a lot of work that metal fabricators used to do. Let’s face the fact that Southern California is no longer an affordable place for a median income family to live as well. What does the typical house in Downey cost. I doubt it can be bought on an income of $60,000 per year. Mexicans might be able to afford it because more than one household will share a house and or there are 2 or 3 generation wage earners living in it. Grandparents on SS, SDI or SSI, mom and dad both working and multiple children who do not attend college living under one roof.

    Here is a very interesting short piece from Zero Hedge tonight I’d recommend for those curious as to why the middle class is dying.

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-12-14/economics-efficiency-fake-jobs-fake-growth-and-two-class-society

  50. @Reg Cæsar

    The solid White middle class of the US pre-1965 was built on Unions, Manufacturing and Patriarchy.
     
    I thought it was restricting immigration in the 1920s and crippling competitors in WWII that built the middle class.

    Unions-- oh yeah, those guys who were anti-black then pro-black, anti-immigrant then pro-immigrant, anti-woman then pro-woman, anti-gay then pro-gay. Yeah, the straight white workingman's best friend…

    Sorry for not being clear. I thought I set a pretty clear demarcation pre-1965 and post-1965. Pre-1965 Unions were quite different creature compared to the public sector horror shows today. I’ve looked at a lot of securities filings from Midwestern manufacturing companies during the 40s-60s (documents publicly traded companies file with the SEC): what has struck me is 1) Executive pay was maybe 10-40 (really high) times of the average wage of employees, 2) Executives lived in the same communities as their employees (in nicer houses and nicer sections of the town, but still there)–they were not segregated away in gated exurbs an hour or more away and their children (when you dig further) were being educated in the same schools as their workers, 3) they operated with a fraction of the debt companies have on their books now. It’s no good saying protectionism or government regulations created this economic and social scenario–the regulations back then were nothing compared to regulations now. Something else acted as a check–1) the executives themselves were of a different character–few Ivy League types, mostly public colleges, etc–and must have felt some sense of noblesse oblige, and 2) more important and more concrete fear of Union reaction clamped down on their worst instincts.

    As I said, what Unions have been transformed into is a tragedy of the first order–the so-called union today is unrecognizable to any worker of the the post-WWII era.

    Was the whole artifice based on ridiculous, unrealistic economic realities–US post-war domination without any international competition? Sure, but countries that have retained a strong workers’ political force (through trade unions, etc.–I’m thinking of Germany specifically) are doing okay economically–haven’t collapsed off the globe.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    Pre-1965 Unions were quite different creature compared to the public sector horror shows today
     
    These "pre-1965 Unions" either supported the '60s revolution (the one in Congress, not the one in the street), or did a piss-poor job of opposing it, while they still had the Democratic Party in their grip. They sold out the rank-and-file (they never gave a sweet damn about the non-union working class) back when the very legitimacy of public-sector unions was still controversial.

    countries that have retained a strong workers’ political force (through trade unions, etc.–I’m thinking of Germany specifically)
     
    I don't know the specifics of German law, but if it's anything like in Sweden, employers as well as workers can unite to negotiate. Compare that to the old UAW tactic of playing the Big Three off one another.

    (By the way, how does the corporate tax in those places compare to our "capitalistic" version?)
  51. perhaps the old negro space program can be revived to take advantage of our new demographic reality?

  52. @Steve Sailer
    "During Apollo, NASA’s budget was 4% of GDP."

    Really?

    Oops. Not GDP. Federal Budget.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    So around 1% of GDP? That's a lot.
  53. @Hacienda
    Oops. Not GDP. Federal Budget.

    So around 1% of GDP? That’s a lot.

  54. @jimbojones
    I find Ricardo's argument against the minimum wage to be frankly bizarre. Ricardo says, by the laws of supply and demand, if wages are too high, those who offer wages lower their demand for workers, and employment falls until wages fall.
    But one can trivially turn this argument on its head. Namely, if there aren't enough workers, wage-givers have to increase wages to attract workers to their enterprises. I.e. full employment leads to rising wages, not to lower wages & unemployment.

    Which side is correct? In a sense, both. If a government drops all tariffs, allows foreign companies to underbid domestic products, allows domestic companies to "out-source," and imports immigrants willing to work for less money that the natives (forgetting to enforce existing minimum wage laws in the process), then, yeah, Ricardo's argument holds. Wages fall and unemployment rises. This travesty has occurred all over the world in the last half-century, with notably catastrophic results in South America and Eastern Europe.
    But if a government keeps up the tariffs, controls immigration, and deliberately, through the pursuit of conscious national strategy, stimulates production in key sectors and trains personnel capable of filling high-tech positions, then employment and wages are both high. This is what the US did for much of its history, and what the East Asians have been doing recently.

    Now, some free market buffs say that all government is bad, etc etc. Except when it has to enforce contracts and free-trade agreements. Wow! The gall! If a government can enforce contracts and sign free-trade agreements, then it can pursue national economic strategy and raise tariffs.

    Back in the day, the US made things. No longer. National prosperity is based on production, not on services. A service economy is an oxymoron, an absurdity. Romanian cabbies, barbers, and fast food workers are just as competent as their South Korean colleagues. But they draw far lower wages. How come? Because Romania let its economy tank after 1989, while South Korea has become the world's largest producer (per capita) of steel and ships - among other things. This, starting from scratch within living memory. South Korea was in the 18th century back in 1950. Now it's in the 21st.

    And I tell ya one thing. They didn't get to where they are by loving the sweet "free market," whatever that is.

    They copied the 1950s USA.

  55. Look here, I agree with most commenters here that the massive illegal immigration has contributed strongly to the devastation of the lower and lower middle class America, you know, menial laborers and tradesmen. However, it is certainly not the main contributor to the decline of the American middle class proper.

    Those who think that protectionism and unions would have shielded the American middle class from the vast transformation of the global economy in the last 50 years are wholly deluded or simply ignorant of history.

    You have to understand that during much of the early history of our Republic, we were a nation dependent on exporting natural resources like, say, Brazil. During much of that history, we suffered from a labor shortage that consequently created high labor wages. Vast land and resources and few people. Good times for the few people.

    That boom largely ended with the closing of the frontier.

    The second economic boon to the U.S. was the global destruction of World War II. In 1950, the U.S. accounted for 50% of the world GNP, largely because the rest of the industrial world was in shambles. That led to the highly unusual and unsustainable situation in which even undereducated American workers could earn relatively high salaries. And that, eventually, was not going to last once the Northern Europeans and the Northeast Asians recovered from their various temporary problems.

    Large scale immigration, especially illegal immigration, exacerbated this trend, but it was not the catalyst. To put crudely, our country was gifted a long period of good times, and we got fat, happy, and dumb thinking the good times were permanent.

    “Free trade” as currently formulated has significant issues, to be sure, but people who clamor for protectionism hasn’t experienced in person a real protectionist economy of high prices and low innovation in the face of capable outside competitors, a society in which most people are more equally poor.

    • Replies: @Former Darfur
    Yes, I have. I remember being in Brazil in the seventies. All the cars were domestically made, overpriced and crappy, and tractors were so expensive villages could not afford them: they could have afforded old 8N Fords or small Farmalls but they could not import them. My dad complained and Brazilians just looked at him as if he were dumb. But I have come to the realization that Brazilians would have been even worse off without the tractor and car plants they did have, and if imports were allowed they would never have had them.
    , @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    This is partly a lie. US has had strong forms of protectionism since the time of Henry Clay's "American System" of the late 1820s early 1830s. The South was pro-free trade for obvious reasons but the industrialized Northern states pushed hard for it with each passing decade and won out by the mid 1850s.

    Also, modern South Korea, Germany and Japan still maintain protectionism policies and they're doing quite well, all things considered. China, poised to become the worlds largest economy by end of this decade also has an economy that is largely protectionism based.

    Oops.

    You also are basically saying that runaway rates of immigration are no long term problem. That too is very dishonest. It IS part of the problem and also the catalyst as well. It IS a major growing problem with each passing decade.

    Open Borders and Free Trade policies usually go hand in hand. Long term effects on a nations economy results in disaster all around.

    But the larger point is that the US has followed protectionist policies for well over 150years. It increased dramatically with the Lincoln administration, on the belief that American jobs were dependent on keeping America's industries protected from foreign economic influences (extreme form of open markets at the expense of native worker's jobs).

    Look at Britain. During the mid 19th century they relaxed import tariffs on foodstuffs and by WW1 faced a couple of food shortages. A nation that no longer predominantly produces its own food to feed its population and must rely upon free trade to feed itself is clearly, clearly headed in the wrong direction.
  56. Steve, Hacienda,

    Not 4% of GDP, only 4% (actually almost 4.5% in the peak year of 1967) of the Federal budget. (I wrote 2% in an earlier comment but that was an error; I had that number in my mind from 1969 when the Leftist “welfare before science” attacks really started to bite– by that year Apollo spending had already shrunk some while Vietnam War and Great Society spending had grown.)

    We could talk about this stuff for hours. How well I remember that time! Imagine if the US had claimed the Moon, then spent the Vietnam War budget on colonizing it! We never got any benefit from that war, and as was predicted at the time, we got no lasting benefit from most Great Society spending either (except possibly from Medicare for the elderly). All the money spent on welfare schemes and all the money spent on affirmative action bureaucrats (like Michelle Obama!) was worse than wasted. Affirmative action and related regulations corroded American productivity and still depress it. Nearly every social indicator for America’s blacks (marriage rate, unemployment, crime rate, longevity) has fallen in absolute or relative terms since the 1960’s, not just despite the deluge of government spending, but likely because of it. Oh, the humanity!

  57. @Clyde
    I did a word find on the WaPo article and not once are immigration and free trade mentioned, which says it all. Pathetic inside the Beltway groupThink at work!

    But the WaPo commentators do:

    So, I have to think that tariffs are not such a bad idea. Unfettered free trade has been, I think, a disaster. Yes, it is a complex matter to set tariffs, and I shudder to think that ruling elites would have control over what tariffs to place on what products, but, to allow low wage countries to wipe out much of our industrial base has been a disaster, for our economic integrity and security, and for our American jobs and workers. So, I say Yes to Fre Trade with Canada...and NO to free trade with China.

    One practical thing we can do RIGHT NOW, is to begin to impose a tariff on foreign oil coming from outside of North America.

    In the past few months, the price of oil has tumbled, and the key reason was due to American and Canadian success at developing new oil sources, and the decision of OPEC NOT to cut back their production, as they traditionally have, to keep the balance between supply and demand of oil, and maintaining the price of oil at the higher levels we have seen.
     

    Don’t expect a bunch of beltway insiders to speak the truth, they just prefer to lie to the people.

    Look NAFTA, PNTR with China are two things that help kill our industrial might and crippled the white middle class. It wiped out so many of the 3rd tier manufacturers it borders on treason. It also is the source of many labor problems as well. It doesn’t get mentioned anymore because it’s verboten. The establishment was solidly behind it when it was promoted and still is to this day. The last MSM guy to mention got s**tcanned from CNN – Lou Dobbs.

    As a result it cannot be mentioned as the source of our economic and unemployment woes.

    Another thing that happened was during the Clinton Administration when the aerospace giants went on a acquisition binge and ingested many of the 2nd and 3rd tier companies and left us with two clueless giants – Lockheed and Boeing. This was later admitted to be a disaster for aerospace and country in general.

    Fact is we needed to keep these companies from being ingested by the giants and keep their expertise alive, we didn’t.

    Thirdly – After the Russians gave up and Apollo ended, NASA never had a stable long term budget. This made it hard to keep scientists and technicians and programs died or got cut. This was a recipe for problems. Had we kept stable funding the successors of Nerva and Orion programs would be a reality today.

    Fourth – the downsizing of the military.

    And immigration had squat to do with it. That is a function mostly of Americans business class embracing short term thinking and owning the government.

  58. @Steve Sailer
    Weren't the German rocket scientists pretty much kept behind barbed wired at an Army base near El Paso for the rest of the Forties?

    Weren’t the German rocket scientists pretty much kept behind barbed wired at an Army base near El Paso for the rest of the Forties?

    Yes. And they were pretty unhappy about it and expressed themselves as such, which led to their exposure and some public grumbling. They were sort of scientific royalty in Nazi Germany (that commanded a vast legion of slave workers) and didn’t quite seem to realize that they were the defeated enemy in their new Spartan surroundings. Perhaps they should have tried Russia instead.

    Later they were moved to Huntsville, AL and had an extended stay, which was apparently a happier one.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    As I mentioned before, I had girlfriend in college from Cocoa Beach, FL who told me that she got a 1580/1600 on the SAT (old style scoring). I said something like, Wow, that must be the highest at your school. She said, no, it was fourth highest. I said, who are these kids, the children of rocket scientists (that was a relatively new witticism in the 1970s). She said: Yes.
  59. Downey is only Beverly Hills by Mexican standards because the bar is set so low for Mexicans. The bar is never set high for Mexicans. Mexicans after all are a NAM group just like African Americans so you can not put too much high expectations on them.

    By the real Beverly Hills standards, Downey is working class at best. You know you are in a truly affluent zip code in Southern California when a lot of your neighbors are Jewish. And Downey just does not have a lot of Jews.

    • Replies: @Hare Krishna
    "You know you are in a truly affluent zip code in Southern California when a lot of your neighbors are Jewish. And Downey just does not have a lot of Jews."

    By those standards, there are no affluent zip codes in the San Gabriel Valley, only one in Santa Barbara County, and only a couple in Orange County. And not many in San Diego.
  60. @Twinkie

    Weren’t the German rocket scientists pretty much kept behind barbed wired at an Army base near El Paso for the rest of the Forties?
     
    Yes. And they were pretty unhappy about it and expressed themselves as such, which led to their exposure and some public grumbling. They were sort of scientific royalty in Nazi Germany (that commanded a vast legion of slave workers) and didn't quite seem to realize that they were the defeated enemy in their new Spartan surroundings. Perhaps they should have tried Russia instead.

    Later they were moved to Huntsville, AL and had an extended stay, which was apparently a happier one.

    As I mentioned before, I had girlfriend in college from Cocoa Beach, FL who told me that she got a 1580/1600 on the SAT (old style scoring). I said something like, Wow, that must be the highest at your school. She said, no, it was fourth highest. I said, who are these kids, the children of rocket scientists (that was a relatively new witticism in the 1970s). She said: Yes.

  61. Look here, I agree with most commenters here that the massive illegal immigration has contributed strongly to the devastation of the lower and lower middle class America, you know, menial laborers and tradesmen. However, it is certainly not the main contributor to the decline of the American middle class proper.

    Those who think that protectionism and unions would have shielded the American middle class from the vast transformation of the global economy in the last 50 years are wholly deluded or simply ignorant of history.

    You have to understand that during much of the early history of our Republic, we were a nation dependent on exporting natural resources like, say, Brazil. During much of that history, we suffered from a labor shortage that consequently created high labor wages. Vast land and resources and few people. Good times for the few people.

    That boom largely ended with the closing of the frontier.

    The second economic boon to the U.S. was the global destruction of World War II. In 1950, the U.S. accounted for 50% of the world GNP, largely because the rest of the industrial world was in shambles. That led to the highly unusual and unsustainable situation in which even undereducated American workers could earn relatively high salaries. And that, eventually, was not going to last once the Northern Europeans and the Northeast Asians recovered from their various temporary problems.

    Large scale immigration, especially illegal immigration, exacerbated this trend, but it was not the catalyst. To put crudely, our country was gifted a long period of good times, and we got fat, happy, and dumb thinking the good times were permanent.

    “Free trade” as currently formulated has significant issues, to be sure, but people who clamor for protectionism hasn’t experienced in person a real protectionist economy of high prices and low innovation in the face of capable outside competitors, a society in which most people are more equally poor.

  62. It is worth remembering Downey’s other most famous product besides aerospace which, also in its own way, symbolic of the decline of the white middle class.

    http://www.downeyca.org/visitors/attractions/carpenters.asp

    The Carpenters
    Carpenters Collection

    The Downey City Library is pleased to introduce the Carpenters Collection, materials that chronicle the career of Richard and Karen Carpenter, one of the greatest popular music duos of our time.

    In 1963, the Carpenter family moved to Downey, where Richard and Karen attended Downey High School. They helped form an instrumental trio in 1965, which won a battle of the bands at the Hollywood Bowl. They were signed to a recording contract, but their songs were never released. After disbanding, Richard and Karen formed a new vocal group at California State University, Long Beach, where they both had enrolled. This group was also short-lived.

    Phenomenal success was just around the corner, though. Richard and Karen signed a contract with A&M record in 1969. Their first single, “Ticket to Ride,” was a modest hit, but their next release, “Close to You,” was a number one best seller, with over one million copies bought. During the next several years, the Carpenters achieved fame with a string of top 40 hits and sold-out concerts around the world. They were three-time Grammy winners and made numerous television appearances.

    In 1983, after a long battle with anorexia nervosa, Karen suffered a heart attack and died at her parent’s home in Downey. She lives on in the many recordings that feature her beautiful voice, and in the work of several vocalists who acknowledge her influence. Richard continues to write, arrange, produce, and perform music, and was a driving force in the establishment of the Richard and Karen Carpenter Performing Arts Center – http://www.carpenterarts.org – at California State University, Long Beach. And their recordings continue to be treasured by old and new fans alike.

    The Carpenters Collection comprises numerous CDs, books, songbooks, albums, videocassettes, a fan club newsletter series, and publicity materials. Many of the books, CDs and videos may be checked out. Other materials are housed in a display case located near the circulation desk.

    The Downey City Library is grateful to Richard Carpenter for a generous donation of Carpenters recordings and to the Friends of the Downey City Library for a substantial grant which enabled the Library to purchase other materials.

    • Replies: @Another Canadian
    All this talk about manned space flight and The Carpenters reminds me of a very 1970s subject we don't hear much about anymore...intelligent life in outer space.

    "Calling occupants of interplanetary craft..."

    We, culturally, just don't seem to have the imagination we once did.
  63. Twinkie you once said that racial demographics wise your ideal America would be 10 percent Asian with the remaining 90 percent being made up of mostly Whites. So your ideal America would still be predominantly White, but instead of Blacks or Mexicans being the largest Nonwhite minority group, it would be Asians who are the largest Nonwhite minority group.

    • Replies: @Twinkie

    Twinkie you once said that racial demographics wise your ideal America would be 10 percent Asian with the remaining 90 percent being made up of mostly Whites. So your ideal America would still be predominantly White, but instead of Blacks or Mexicans being the largest Nonwhite minority group, it would be Asians who are the largest Nonwhite minority group.
     
    I don't think that's quite what I wrote.

    My ideal America is one in which the vast majority of Americans are descendants of the historically American people, which is to say, those of Northwestern European origin. I think East Asians can be assimilated well into that majority... up to a point, probably no more than 5-15%. Beyond that point forces of counter-assimilation begin to gain strength, which is not healthy for social cohesion. Blacks and Hispanics can be assimilated harmoniously too, but probably a substantially smaller percentage, less than 5% combined.

    I live most of the time in an area that is roughly 65% white, 25% Asian, and 5% black/Hispanic. It is a very affluent and highly educated area. What few crimes exist are almost entirely committed by the last group. But the area is definitely too diverse and even too Asian for my particular taste. I liked it better when the area was 80% white and 10% Asian. It was more, for lack of a better term, small town-like but still had some interesting dining and shopping options.

    I subscribe to Derbyshire's notion of diversity/immigrants being akin to salt in a soup. A little bit makes the soup tasty and more interesting, but too much overwhelms and ruins the soup.

  64. @SPMoore8
    As I understand Charles Murray's point, we have created a society where people of marginal intelligence have grave difficulties making it into the middle class.

    By definition, that comprises approximately 50% of the population. It strongly impacts whites, but -- given the known distribution of intelligence by groups -- even more strongly impacts certain minorities.

    Illegal immigration is making this problem worse, but it isn't creating the problem. I knew a guy who hung sheetrock for 40 years, but the last 10 years were hell, because contractors were constantly taking the low bid from people who were using illegals who in turn were paid even less.

    If we could theoretically stop low wage illegal immigration, and cause all of them to go home, then the next step is that prices would rise across the board for everyone else. Or did I miss something?

    More to the point, while I do not like the scale of illegal immigration, we are never going to mobilize the National Guard to drive these people out. They aren't going to go away.

    “we are never going to mobilize the National Guard to drive these people out.”

    You can do it if you decide to do it.

  65. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Well, it’s just so obvious, it *is* all down to immigration.
    Look at just one the most salient facts that iSteve unearthed in the past few years, notably that result known as ‘Schaeffer’s number’ – or the result that those on minimum pay don’t even earn enough to pay for their own medical expenses, never mind every single other cost that life throws at them. Now, for these huge, huge numbers of people *someone* is paying their medical bills, their rent, their education costs, their food and clothing costs, and it’s not them, of course, it’s someone else whose wealth is being eroded to do it. No matter what lies and sophistry economists will throw at it, they cannot deny this basic, basic unchallengeable fact. But lie, lie and lie they do.
    Now, I’m not immigrant bashing for the sake of immigration bashing, but consider that the US white population has been more or less static for the last 40 years. Of course during that period the population grew by over 100 million – all third world immigrants. It is safe to say that millions upon millions of tax and productivity stealing losers were imported with that lot too. Simple arithmetic tells us that the causes of the fiscal and wage disaster are pretty damn obvious.
    Of course, if no immigration surge happened in the last 40 years, than America would have continued on the destiny economics ordained for it ie a high wage, high productivity hi-tech society.

    • Replies: @Flip
    The low wage workers don't earn enough to live on so their wages are in effect subsidized by the rest of society and so the business owners benefit which is why they and the Democrats joined forces to promote immigration. This is why I am starting to change my mind on the minimum wage even as a free market libertarian since it forces the employers to bear some of this subsidy themselves.
  66. What is the farthest a manned spacecraft has gone in the last 35 years? And how far is the moon?

    • Replies: @V Vega
    The older I get, the more dubious I am that the US government actually sent men to the moon and brought them back given the technology at the time.
  67. Horribly wrong for whom?

    yes, it all went wrong for the white middle class majority–the faction of the majority, to paraphrase Founding Plutocrat James Madison.

    But it all went Quite Right for the elite, for the plutocrats, for the mega-corporations.

    This blogpost is a perfect example of how the so-called Dissident Right ultimately takes the perspective of The Powers That Be, at least in certain areas.

    Differing interests. What does that term mean?

    You cannot easily even consider the idea that the elite have differing interests from the rest of us, so aligned are your own perspectives with those at the top. Reflexively, you have posited that it all went wrong–for us all. But you cannot easily discern, distinguish between the majority white middle class and the plutocrats and corporations. The liberals can do that, however. In fact, the liberals reflexively distinguish between the workers and Capital. They do that reflexively, easily. But the liberals cannot discern/distinguish that whites and nonwhites are different, and that such difference is weakness, yes, weakness, that diversity is weakness for the majority, but strength for the mega-corporations. That is their central flaw, at least from the perspective of the white working class. See, there I go again with my central argument–that there exist differing interests, and that each should have a differing perspective.

    Left and Right–two sides, two ideological puppets, each side has a culture, one that has been molded and domesticated by the forces of this ideological ecosystem.

    But back to the so-called Dissident Right: The real flaw of the so-called Dissident Right is that you consider liberals to be the elite. The liberals are just the other puppet, the other puppet on the other hand of your masters, the dominant forces in this ideological ecosystem.

    I say “so-called” Dissident Right because you are far from being dissident.

    Now consider what happened as things went horribly wrong (for the faction of the majority). What happened in those intervening years between the 1950s and now? Oh, yeah, the civil rights movement. Racial integration. Busing. Supreme court decisions.

    Divide et impera. Coincident with things going horribly wrong (for the faction of the majority), the civil rights era was crammed down our throats by the elite. Diversity is strength. But for whom?

    Divide et impera. I return once again to James madison and his divide et impera letter to Jefferson, in which he explained to jefferson that the way to rule america was to divide and conquer. What did he mean? Well, read the federalist papers and Madison’s notes on the constitutional convention.

    The divide et impera principle was fully explained in those writings. The idea was to lessen the power of the faction of the majority by decreasing the control they had over their own government. How? By increasing factions within voting districts. More factions means less unity. Less unity means the expressed will and common interests of the populace is more diffused. That makes it harder for the populace to elect and hold accountable their elected representatives.

    Divide et impera. You divide by increasing factions. The founding plutocrats did that by enlarging voting districts. Larger means more factions. That means less democracy because there is less control by the majority faction.

    The principle was used by the elite during the civil rights era. They divided by combining racial and cultural factions into single voting districts. Nothing new under the sun….

    Not to put too fine a point on it (yeah, right), the elites used the courts to implement racial integration, thus combining races into voting districts, thus increasing factions in voting districts. More factions, less unity, less democracy, less control of the government by the majority.

    To put it simply for you, things went horribly wrong (for us!) because democracy was dampened through increased factionalization brought about by racial integration in the civil rights era. Less control of the government means the corporations have more control, which means they can use the government to increase profits and decrease wages and increase living costs. End result? Decreasing standard of living for the faction of the majority (that’s us!).

    Now look at some examples on this blue marble orbiting around that yellow star. Yeah, our cultural cousins in the other white western nations. Like, iceland, denmark, austria, germany, sweden, yadda yadda. What lessons can we learn from a comparison/contrast? I leave this as an exercise for the reader….

  68. Michael Douglas made a movie in the early ’90s about a laid-off aerospace worker going on a rampage in SoCal called “Falling Down.” As I recall, it didn’t end too well for his character either.

  69. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Verocitor:

    We could talk about this stuff for hours. How well I remember that time! Imagine if the US had claimed the Moon, then spent the Vietnam War budget on colonizing it! We never got any benefit from that war, and as was predicted at the time,

    You remember wrong. We got plenty of benefit from that war, as we stopped communism from spreading further. South Vietnam served as a proverbial Roach Motel for communists from the east. If we had packed up and left in the early sixties, the communists we refrained from killing would have spread out significantly.
    We killed an estimated 2,7000,000 of committed communists, compared to their killing around 50,000 of our troops. That’s an historically excellent ratio for us. Interviews with former Viet Cong members revealed that they all literally shit their pants every time they heard a B-52 overhead. Our carpet bombing was far more effective than the North Vietnamese let on at the time.
    The Vietnam “war” was a war of attrition, and the numbers tell us, and the North Vietnamese tell us, we won. Traditionally, the “loser” of a major “war” pays reparations. We never paid war reparations, now did we?
    The Vietnam war stopped the rapid spread of Communism in Southeast Asia. If left alone then, it would have become a much larger, and obstinate issue in the future.
    Instead, we now enjoy the courtesy of the Socialist Republic of Vietnam. So stop with the old timey hippy narrative of the Vietnam “war.” It’s laughable now.

    • Replies: @Veracitor
    I'll take the bait only because there are young people here who might not realize how bogus your screed is; they deserve something better.

    According to the Pentagon Papers the US gov't launched the Vietnam war to "contain" Chinese expansionism. (Of course, Lyndon Johnson's famously oversized ego, prompted by the professional enthusiasm of generals and defense contractors' greed, also had a lot to do with US actions. Once we were "in" none of our politicians wanted to get "out," either for fear of being called a pansy by an electoral opponent or fear of losing all those military-contractor bribes and kickbacks, a trap which clamped our leg again after the Lesser Bush invaded Afghanistan and Iraq.)

    The problem was that "Chinese expansionism" was a chimera. To be sure, the Chinese supported Communist insurgencies or regimes in bordering states like Vietnam, often by forwarding aid from the USSR. But after Korea none were very important. Either they were nuisances or they were nationalists who would not welcome Chinese overlords. In fact, Vietnam sharply repelled a Chinese invasion in 1979 (with continued sporadic fighting for a decade).

    During the war the US and its allies killed perhaps a few hundred thousand Communist troops in Indochina, many of whom were draftees. The overall death toll from circa 1965 to 1975 is widely disputed, but no matter whose estimates you take the only way to get up to 2.7 million is to count in anti-communist and civilian deaths. Only a small fraction of casualties were ideological Communists.

    Westmoreland's idiotic "attrition" strategy demonstrated that the US, far larger, richer, and more populous than Vietnam, could occupy South Vietnam indefinitely, but only by spending money and lives continously. When the US finally tired of the mess and pulled out, the Communists accomplished all of their war aims. Indeed, it is likely that the US could have spared hundreds of thousands of lives simply by leaving Vietnam alone, since the long-run outcome would not have differed.

    As for bombing, to this day I feel patriotically proud when I contemplate all the Linebacker and Ranch Hand raids, the Arclight strikes, tacair bombardments, even the AC-130 sorties. Gosh, we really showed the world what we could do! We dropped more than 6.7 million tons of bombs on Indochina, more than four times as many bombs as we dropped in the ETO during WWII, and more accurately, too. It is impossible to review the USAF reports and RAND analyses and PNI or even National Geographic articles with color photos from Vietnam without preening over our military and industrial prowess. I just wish it had gained us something!

    No doubt those pesky VC and NVA disliked being bombed. Probably almost as much as the civilians we killed or deprived of their farms disliked it. However, we were never willing to bomb the highest-value targets in the North, and even if we had that wouldn't have won the war.
  70. It wasn’t the middle class that got the US to the moon. It was about 100,000 employees of NASA. Some of whom learned very esoteric technical matters. Then were layed-off without any ceremony when Apollo ended. End of Soviet Union meant end of space rivalry so national scale space programs of the type that occurred in the Cold War can’t get budgeted.

    The layoffs of tech talent from the space standdown were a big part of the reason California and not Route 128 (the ironically named Apollo Computer and Symbolics along with DEC) became the computer capital of the world. They were the kind of people you could run a semiconductor fab with and not have abysmal yields and massive employee death and disability claims from working with the incredibly toxic materials used.

  71. WhatEvvs [AKA "Bemused"] says:
    @Rifleman

    Thomas Edsall is writing op-eds in the NY Times that show a dim perception of the concerns of the white working class and why they no longer vote for the party of “So Long White Boy.”
     
    Meanwhile Edsall is a stereotypical example of a really ugly looking White guy.

    Is there some kind of psychological game going on when completely - extremely - White people must obsessively write anti-White screeds on a regular basis?

    Edsall ain’t Brad Pitt, that’s true.

    Is there some kind of psychological game going on when completely – extremely – White people must obsessively write anti-White screeds on a regular basis?

    I don’t understand this. Edsall isn’t writing anti-White screeds. He’s saying the Dems should heed the concerns of the WWC (white working class).

    Right now the closest thing to a white working class warrior is Elizabeth Warren. I would actually vote for her just to balance things out. She is saying the truth about how fat cats rule our society. I doubt she’d be able to do anything about it as President, but she might say a few decent things.

  72. @Twinkie
    Look here, I agree with most commenters here that the massive illegal immigration has contributed strongly to the devastation of the lower and lower middle class America, you know, menial laborers and tradesmen. However, it is certainly not the main contributor to the decline of the American middle class proper.

    Those who think that protectionism and unions would have shielded the American middle class from the vast transformation of the global economy in the last 50 years are wholly deluded or simply ignorant of history.

    You have to understand that during much of the early history of our Republic, we were a nation dependent on exporting natural resources like, say, Brazil. During much of that history, we suffered from a labor shortage that consequently created high labor wages. Vast land and resources and few people. Good times for the few people.

    That boom largely ended with the closing of the frontier.

    The second economic boon to the U.S. was the global destruction of World War II. In 1950, the U.S. accounted for 50% of the world GNP, largely because the rest of the industrial world was in shambles. That led to the highly unusual and unsustainable situation in which even undereducated American workers could earn relatively high salaries. And that, eventually, was not going to last once the Northern Europeans and the Northeast Asians recovered from their various temporary problems.

    Large scale immigration, especially illegal immigration, exacerbated this trend, but it was not the catalyst. To put crudely, our country was gifted a long period of good times, and we got fat, happy, and dumb thinking the good times were permanent.

    "Free trade" as currently formulated has significant issues, to be sure, but people who clamor for protectionism hasn't experienced in person a real protectionist economy of high prices and low innovation in the face of capable outside competitors, a society in which most people are more equally poor.

    Yes, I have. I remember being in Brazil in the seventies. All the cars were domestically made, overpriced and crappy, and tractors were so expensive villages could not afford them: they could have afforded old 8N Fords or small Farmalls but they could not import them. My dad complained and Brazilians just looked at him as if he were dumb. But I have come to the realization that Brazilians would have been even worse off without the tractor and car plants they did have, and if imports were allowed they would never have had them.

    • Replies: @Twinkie

    Yes, I have. I remember being in Brazil in the seventies. All the cars were domestically made, overpriced and crappy, and tractors were so expensive villages could not afford them: they could have afforded old 8N Fords or small Farmalls but they could not import them.
     
    That's rather uncanny as I thought of Brazil when I made that point.

    But I have come to the realization that Brazilians would have been even worse off without the tractor and car plants they did have, and if imports were allowed they would never have had them.
     
    Do you really think that the median Brazilian quality of life was better back then?
  73. I will simply say something that many posters are already aware of. That legal immigrants are not a 100% OK. That it is a mistake to make illegals the only real immigration problem. In fact the quality of legal immigrants gets worse each year. Quality going by IQ, skills, education, English speaking. Many legals get on our social welfare system ASAP that they can legally do it and are a net drain on society. You can blame our immigration laws that favors family re-unification from 3rd world cesspits. Mexico gives us the most legal immigrants each year, 400,000. Same thing happens with Guatemalans, Peruvians, Muslim Indians and Pakistanis etc etc. Once they become citizens they can apply to bring in their low-IQ relatives and wives. Sometimes multiple wives.

    Of course we get many educated legal immigrants who work and are a net positive to society. But then many are infamous (Such as Chinese and Russians) for legally bringing in their elderly parents to “retire” here and drain our SS system and our social welfare in general without ever having kicked in a dime. These Chinese etc elderly can get on SS disability at $700 a month due to being broken down (being old!) and ill, faked or real.

    At the same time many of the illegals can be net contributors to society especially single men I see out working on roofs as a crew. Guats and Mexicans do this. But they are sending money home, not spending it here and once mamacita gets here, they have kids here and the family starts being a new drain on the system. Plus getting anchor babies to make them non-deportable.

    Also some illegals are actually skilled entrepreneurs or become such while here. IOW they have a high native IQ.
    My ideal immigration system here would be to keep out all illegal aliens (via a Mexican border fence and strict computerized customs to weed out/exclude potential visa overstayers, and start making the illegal ones here self-deport. Then on the legal side immigration should become 100% skills based which nations such as Canada and Australia do. This will tilt our system to allowing in more Europeans. Millions of skilled, hi-IQ, English speaking, culturally Christian East Europeans (South Africans too!) would love to come here. We need a 5-10 year moratorium on 3rd world immigration. They have been hogging our legal immigration slots for 50 years since the 1965 immigration passed.
    ENOUGH!!!

  74. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Just suppose that the mass, post-1965 third world immigration into the USA had never occurred.
    It is pretty much incontestable that tens and tens of million low paid third world immigrants – and their equally low paid descendants would not be present on US soil.
    Now, as Peter Schaeffer more or less proved, these tens of millions are entirely dependant on the productivity of others, via taxation, just to keep them alive and breathing with food in their bellies and shirts on their backs, never mind the huge resources ‘transferred’ to pay for their education, health, housing etc.
    Now, imagine if all of those resources – which to put a not too fine a point on it are as good as being burned – were available for such luxuries and fripperies as ‘space exploration’. Imagine how many good, high-tech’ high paying jobs would be supported – imagine the potential of the ‘spinoff’ technologies and of the technical, educated workforce so created.

  75. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Apparently, the UK workforce has never been so big. Never before have so many workers been in employment.
    Now, one would expect under these circumstances for the UK treasury to be awash with cash, as one would have thought more workers equals more income tax.
    But, not a bit of it. The UK fiscal deficit is still stubbornly, enormously high and huge, huge public spending cuts, on top of those already made, are planned for the near future. Income tax receipts into the UK treasury have simply not increased.
    The reason? – the massive, uncontrolled immigration into the UK started by New Labour, and continued by the Tories has added millions to the UK workforce. But in the main they are badly paid. Their competition has dragged down wage rates to the irreducible minimum, such workers pay very little to zero income tax in the UK. But, they are entitled to huge ‘family credit’ taxpayer paid cash bonuses, combined with huge liabilities attendant to education and socialized UK health care.
    But never but never will you hear The Economist magazine state this obvious truth.

    • Replies: @Wilkey
    "Now, one would expect under these circumstances for the UK treasury to be awash with cash, as one would have thought more workers equals more income tax."

    Well consider that Obama's deficits have all been worse than all but one of Bush's deficits (his last, most of it during Obama's first year in office). That's with a growing economy, a booming stock market, and interest rates at nearly zero. If a ~$500 billion federal budget deficit is the new normal for the good times, what will it be like when the economy heads south again?

    The US faces the same budget problems as the UK.
  76. @Hare Krishna
    Unions plus patriarchy built the middle class.

    The 1924 Immigration Act helped black America, but hurt white America, and made the later decline of many of America's cities inevitable.

    The 1924 Immigration Act helped black America, but hurt white America…

    Lucy, you got some ‘splainin’ to do…

    • Replies: @HandsomeWhiteDevil
    "@Hare Krishna

    The 1924 Immigration Act helped black America, but hurt white America…

    Lucy, you got some ‘splainin’ to do…"

    I imagine Hare Krishna's 'splaination would be virtually identical to mine:

    The outbreak of WWI in the summer of 1914 caused an immediate sharp decrease in the number of European immigrants to the US. A war boom began in the US in 1915, thus ending the recession of 1913-14. The "Great Migration" of Southern Blacks to the North, beginning in '15, occurred as Northern manufacturers began to employ Blacks in the place of the now-unavailable European immigrants. Freed of Southern-style Jim Crow restrictions, and earning relatively high industrial wages, this caused a massive migration of rural Southern Blacks to the urban North that would last until ca. 1970. All this allowed the beginnings of a Black middle class to develop, and set the stage for the civil rights revolution that would begin in the 1930s and be complete by the '60s.

    The Black population of the US stood at 21% at the time of the American Revolution. This percentage would slowly fall over the next century and a half, partly due to higher birth rates, lower death rates, and longer life spans among Whites, but mostly due to the massive immigration of Europeans after 1830. The Black population would decline to under 10% in the 1920s, '30s, & '40s, reaching an all-time low of just 9.7% of the US population in 1930. (It was 12.6% in 2010).

    For example, Connecticut went from 2.9% Black in 1820 to 1.4% Black in 1910.

    New York went from 7.6% Black in 1790 to 1.2% Black in 1890.

    Pennsylvania went from 2.9% Black in 1820 to 1.9% Black in 1870.

    Michigan was 3.7% Black in 1800, but only 0.6% Black in 1910.

    Looking at pre-Great Migration statistics, it is amazing to see how Black the entire South was, (many Southern states had Black majorities or near-majorities) and how White was the rest of the country. The 1920s immigration cut-off contributed greatly to "nationalizing" the South's "race problem".

    Had the immigration cut-off of the '20s not happened, and European immigration continued at its pre-WWI pace, and the '65 immigration "reform" never occurred, and if "Operation Wetback" was made permanent, it is entirely probable that the White percentage of the US population would today be 95 or 96 percent of the total.
  77. Real median household income is back to 1989 levels…

    View post on imgur.com

    James Goldsmith warned America of the consequences of GATT (WTO, NAFTA, etc.) in this interview back in 1995 ( Goldsmith is also author of the book “the Trap ” which also includes his warnings )

    The interview is in 5 parts…

    Goldsmith also pleaded with the U.S. Senate…

    CORPORATE PROFITS AFTER TAXES ARE NOW APPROACHING 2 TRILLION…

    http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/CP/

  78. http://freedomoutpost.com/2014/12/just-witnessed-worst-week-global-financial-markets-3-years/

    Europe in bad shape. EU and Russia need to work together but wedge has been driven in by US.

  79. To keep in reserve next time WaPo says that we need more Mexicans for construction/custodial jobs:

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/business/2014/12/14/the-devalued-american-worker/

  80. @anonymous-antimarxist
    It is worth remembering Downey's other most famous product besides aerospace which, also in its own way, symbolic of the decline of the white middle class.

    http://www.downeyca.org/visitors/attractions/carpenters.asp


    The Carpenters
    Carpenters Collection

    The Downey City Library is pleased to introduce the Carpenters Collection, materials that chronicle the career of Richard and Karen Carpenter, one of the greatest popular music duos of our time.

    In 1963, the Carpenter family moved to Downey, where Richard and Karen attended Downey High School. They helped form an instrumental trio in 1965, which won a battle of the bands at the Hollywood Bowl. They were signed to a recording contract, but their songs were never released. After disbanding, Richard and Karen formed a new vocal group at California State University, Long Beach, where they both had enrolled. This group was also short-lived.

    Phenomenal success was just around the corner, though. Richard and Karen signed a contract with A&M record in 1969. Their first single, "Ticket to Ride," was a modest hit, but their next release, "Close to You," was a number one best seller, with over one million copies bought. During the next several years, the Carpenters achieved fame with a string of top 40 hits and sold-out concerts around the world. They were three-time Grammy winners and made numerous television appearances.

    In 1983, after a long battle with anorexia nervosa, Karen suffered a heart attack and died at her parent's home in Downey. She lives on in the many recordings that feature her beautiful voice, and in the work of several vocalists who acknowledge her influence. Richard continues to write, arrange, produce, and perform music, and was a driving force in the establishment of the Richard and Karen Carpenter Performing Arts Center - www.carpenterarts.org - at California State University, Long Beach. And their recordings continue to be treasured by old and new fans alike.

    The Carpenters Collection comprises numerous CDs, books, songbooks, albums, videocassettes, a fan club newsletter series, and publicity materials. Many of the books, CDs and videos may be checked out. Other materials are housed in a display case located near the circulation desk.

    The Downey City Library is grateful to Richard Carpenter for a generous donation of Carpenters recordings and to the Friends of the Downey City Library for a substantial grant which enabled the Library to purchase other materials.
     

    All this talk about manned space flight and The Carpenters reminds me of a very 1970s subject we don’t hear much about anymore…intelligent life in outer space.

    Calling occupants of interplanetary craft…”

    We, culturally, just don’t seem to have the imagination we once did.

  81. I believe the middle class is hosed regardless of immigration or trade policy. The problem is the cognitive cut-off that separates zero marginal productivity workers from the rest is now cutting into the belly of the bell curve. It’s relentless.

  82. As Paul Kersey says, we could have had Mars. Instead the money got spent subsidizing the reproduction of the underclass.

    My son loves space. White America’s loss of the Final Frontier makes me so grief-stricken I want to throw up.

    • Replies: @Rifleman

    As Paul Kersey says, we could have had Mars. Instead the money got spent subsidizing the reproduction of the underclass.
     
    And subsidizing all the government workers who looked after the underclass.

    A huge bureaucracy or city, state and federal workers got jobs, benefits and pensions doing that.
  83. I suppose Werner Von Braun was technically a German immigrant. But in reality he was more like war booty. I imagine other top German scientists were in the same boat.

    They made a movie about that boat–Das Booty.

  84. @syonredux

    Quite a few German immigrants helped America get to the moon.
     
    Last time I checked, the 12 million plus illegal aliens in the USA were not German rocketry experts.....

    More like 40 million.

  85. There is a whole category of immigration that is not being considered by comments in this post.

    There are two foreign worker programs, H1B and then another of foreign citizens who got masters degrees from US institutions that can be hired and are exempt from H1B limits. The limit on the first program is 65,000 and the second is 20,000. One set of calculations done in 2009 had set the number of these workers in the US at 650,000 taking into consideration applications and then various forms of attrition.

    Consider that 90% of those two numbers per year are still in America. H1B renewals were not effected by annual limits. Then added up over the history of all of it, and I can easily think back to 1995 and you start to have a tech population that is easily 35-40% of the total. It’s been almost 20 years or more, by my count. And that does little to take in those “driven out”, like one of my former managers who I met a few years later, that was installing cable. The trend of companies is to keep the H1B guy because of the “trickiness” of the application process and then lay off the local guy. Given the “up and down” nature of tech in the 2000s, layoffs in 2002-2003 had dramatic effect on some people, then they landed somewhere, maybe, then a few years later, to get hit again, often because they were in a new area technologically for them, and lacked or never gained the soundness in that field.

    One of the big deals, and this cannot be underplayed, is that much development went offshore. This was the nuts and bolts designing, writing, and testing of software. And for each developer job that went offshore, then usually support jobs went with it. Lots. So when coder jobs went over there, then so too did manager jobs, tester jobs, documentation jobs, all these jobs that provided really the “middle class” of tech.

    Also for many people, since the world of tech shifted in the US from onshore staff writing code to doing operations of systems created offshore, then for many people, they basically lost the value of their skills and had to learn to shift over into this new mode, running and maintaining systems instead of developing software. And it is not the same thing.

    Also as each “wave” of tech, even “versions” of major software products came out and migrated into use, often it was these newer immigrants that were hired to do it, mostly just because they were new, and the older employees were already mired in to the “old” stuff, because the old stuff was in production. For example, there was massive shift between Oracle 9 and Oracle 10. And really most of the world was using Oracle 8 and never converted to Oracle 9. And there was a huge degree of difference between the two. So projects might migrate to the new versions, when they had to. And these Indians were then hired to come in “learn” the Oracle 10, set it up, and what they learned what very much newer. So then eventually, the migrations were done, and overnight the skills of the locals were obsolete. And if they got laid off by economic conditions, when they went out to interview, nobody gave a crap about their experience. Especially when instead of 3 or 4 roughly capable candidates there were 10 like in 2008-2009.

    It just happened really “overnight”. In the days before the dot com bust, Americans were the large majority of development then when recovery came, it was an Indian thing. And with the flow of the 85,000 per year more over the last 10 years, and consider this idea of Entryism where a small group gets in, then lets in more, and if they can control a dominant activity, then they can push out and lock out others not in their group.

    To me, the 90s proved that American tech salaries were the dominant driver in the economy. It drove the stock market. If people are working, then they contribute to 401K in a river of purchases. They can’t take the money out; it just flows in and drives up the Market.

    The effect in the economy is very subtle. I once read about Fed Ex and UPS as bellweather companies. I asked the local driver about activity (in 2007) he said it was half of what it was the year before, 3 months later, the bottom fell out. The American programmers were chubby-ish white beta males. What they did with their salaries, at least what they personally got, was they drove used cars and they ate lunch, (thus the chubby), and they gave the rest to their wives. Their value to women was they were employed, honest, calm, dependable “Dads”. Then the women took that money and drove the American economy. Indians do not do the same thing. Who knows how much money is sent from America to India. Also another fact is that Indian consulting companies drove out American companies, these smaller companies that would find talent, supply them for periods to bigger companies, pay the employees like a bank, then get paid by the bigger companies quarterly. A ton of smallish companies did this, as well as some very big ones. And they have driven out by the big Indian companies and many of these companies have very few employees onshore doing the administration of these contract employees. And consider the cost to American families, to American women in “where are all the good men”, in fathers, and even in “kids born”, kids that could have turned out to be somebody but never will give us the benefit of them living. I have this saying “It takes 1 guy with a good idea to feed 1000 people”. Obviously there are bunch of those “1 guys” that never will be, either never get the exposure to even a clue about the idea, that never see a tech and think “fuck they’re doing that all wrong”, never have the benefit of these great American thinkers like Ritchie, the nerd from Staten Island who had to commute to Long Island on the ferry, then on the train, and he read semiconductor data books and drew me circuits on a napkin and taught me better than any prof, or Jim Dimino, the big burly Italian who literally was in a junior high gang with Sammy the Bull and missed the life because one night his dad heard some rumors and locked him in his bedroom. And Sammy and the rest got arrested for some stupid shit they did. And Jim went on to be this big designer in the Bell System and ran our design sessions with a yardstick in his hand and hollered at me and the others in that Italian Gangster accent, “Your fucking talking like you know what your talking about!” and then one day we did, because he hollered at us, with a ruler in his hand like a nun.

    I can go and on. H1B and outsourcing screwed the American middle class, and really is a self defeating thing for US companies. It is like steroids in sports. One competitor does it, then the rest have to. And no matter the cost to each, they can’t stop or they lose. And because it started it dried up a lot of the pipeline of being coming into a field with entry level stuff.

    Even the guys that started Fairchild, got their start because the US Gov was paying a lot of people to work on tube based electronics. You learned tubes and circuits using them. Then shifted over to solid state. I can remember going to tech school, some pretty technical stuff, roughly the equivalent of Electronic Enginering without the fluff that a university program has. And at night we sat around and read Gearhead mags, Hot Rod, technical stuff about car engines because that was what guys did back then. The marriage of the two created this very competent bunch of guys, ones that could think in the “spatial” and then ones that were good with tools, lathes, mechanical stuff. When I first started in software, even then, it was nothing for guys I worked with to take the computers apart and do stuff to them, just look it and start point, “That must this thing, and that over there is that other thing.” We ran our own cabling, we jumpered the boards ourselves, we installed new hardware, drives. We all had tools in our desks. It was very unique set of workers in the history of the world, guys that were just as comfortable under the hood of a car, as they were running bebuggers on code, and many were just as comfortable on a tractor or in a machine shop. And younger guys would come in, and these were the “teachers” they would encounter and learn from. This strange combination of Americanism and Protestantism all with a burly American macho swagger, this set of “shit testing” between guys, this sort of “get over here and learn something, idiot” teasing, that produced really incredible leaps and bounds.

    And now they are gone. And dudes from Punjab have those jobs now. And your son will never get them again.

    • Replies: @leftist conservative
    Mark Minter wrote:



    Even the guys that started Fairchild, got their start because the US Gov was paying a lot of people to work on tube based electronics. You learned tubes and circuits using them. Then shifted over to solid state. I can remember going to tech school, some pretty technical stuff, roughly the equivalent of Electronic Enginering without the fluff that a university program has.
     
    yeah, I learned the same stuff as an electronics tech nuke in the navy--tubes, semiconductors, machines, and more importantly, systems. Software was a natural for me. It's a system, and ultimately it is simply a ladder logic system.
    .........


    And now they are gone. And dudes from Punjab have those jobs now. And your son will never get them again.
     
    Yup, we were betrayed by our politicians--because we have no control over them. Of course they sold us out--because they could sell us out! Again we come back to the lack of control over the government by the majority bloc.

    People forget how easy it was for tech people to get a tech job in Socal back then. Heck, I was offered a job doing electronics over the phone by a recruiter when I was being debriefed getting discharged out of the navy in san diego in 1981. The recruiter never even spoke to me--he offered me the job via a third party who answered the phone and answered the question as to whether there were any electronics techs being discharged that day. Those days are long gone.
    , @Ivy
    an interesting book about a prior era - The Soul of a New Machine, by Tracy Kidder
    , @Another Canadian

    This strange combination of Americanism and Protestantism all with a burly American macho swagger, this set of “shit testing” between guys, this sort of “get over here and learn something, idiot” teasing, that produced really incredible leaps and bounds.
     
    I started out as a chemical engineer in a wafer fab in the early 1980s playing with nasty gases like arsine, phosphine and diborane. If a tank of silane got loose it was pyrophoric, it was like a silicon flame thrower. Applied Materials made these bell jar reactors that required etching at crazy high temperatures with gaseous HCl, that stuff occasionally got loose when a bell jar was raised without proper nitrogen purging. It was sometimes a dangerous job but fun as hell. We did everything from pulling silicon crystals to packaging, soup to nuts. Most of that work soon went to Japan and later to Taiwan and where-ever. I learned how to manage smart people in that business and am currently putting that experience to good use in other industries, however, I worry that future generations won't have that opportunity in this country.
    , @Anonymous
    Holy crap Mark - you really can't help yourself can you? You really just need to hear yourself spew garbage every day of your life don't you?
    You show up every where - thanks for making it so much easier for us.
  86. @Twinkie
    Look here, I agree with most commenters here that the massive illegal immigration has contributed strongly to the devastation of the lower and lower middle class America, you know, menial laborers and tradesmen. However, it is certainly not the main contributor to the decline of the American middle class proper.

    Those who think that protectionism and unions would have shielded the American middle class from the vast transformation of the global economy in the last 50 years are wholly deluded or simply ignorant of history.

    You have to understand that during much of the early history of our Republic, we were a nation dependent on exporting natural resources like, say, Brazil. During much of that history, we suffered from a labor shortage that consequently created high labor wages. Vast land and resources and few people. Good times for the few people.

    That boom largely ended with the closing of the frontier.

    The second economic boon to the U.S. was the global destruction of World War II. In 1950, the U.S. accounted for 50% of the world GNP, largely because the rest of the industrial world was in shambles. That led to the highly unusual and unsustainable situation in which even undereducated American workers could earn relatively high salaries. And that, eventually, was not going to last once the Northern Europeans and the Northeast Asians recovered from their various temporary problems.

    Large scale immigration, especially illegal immigration, exacerbated this trend, but it was not the catalyst. To put crudely, our country was gifted a long period of good times, and we got fat, happy, and dumb thinking the good times were permanent.

    "Free trade" as currently formulated has significant issues, to be sure, but people who clamor for protectionism hasn't experienced in person a real protectionist economy of high prices and low innovation in the face of capable outside competitors, a society in which most people are more equally poor.

    This is partly a lie. US has had strong forms of protectionism since the time of Henry Clay’s “American System” of the late 1820s early 1830s. The South was pro-free trade for obvious reasons but the industrialized Northern states pushed hard for it with each passing decade and won out by the mid 1850s.

    Also, modern South Korea, Germany and Japan still maintain protectionism policies and they’re doing quite well, all things considered. China, poised to become the worlds largest economy by end of this decade also has an economy that is largely protectionism based.

    Oops.

    You also are basically saying that runaway rates of immigration are no long term problem. That too is very dishonest. It IS part of the problem and also the catalyst as well. It IS a major growing problem with each passing decade.

    Open Borders and Free Trade policies usually go hand in hand. Long term effects on a nations economy results in disaster all around.

    But the larger point is that the US has followed protectionist policies for well over 150years. It increased dramatically with the Lincoln administration, on the belief that American jobs were dependent on keeping America’s industries protected from foreign economic influences (extreme form of open markets at the expense of native worker’s jobs).

    Look at Britain. During the mid 19th century they relaxed import tariffs on foodstuffs and by WW1 faced a couple of food shortages. A nation that no longer predominantly produces its own food to feed its population and must rely upon free trade to feed itself is clearly, clearly headed in the wrong direction.

    • Replies: @Twinkie

    This is partly a lie. US has had strong forms of protectionism since the time of Henry Clay’s “American System” of the late 1820s early 1830s. The South was pro-free trade for obvious reasons but the industrialized Northern states pushed hard for it with each passing decade and won out by the mid 1850s.
     
    You might wish to invest some time in improving reading comprehension rather than shouting "lies" at ideas with which you disagree.

    I did not suggest that the U.S. was a haven of free trade in the past. I merely pointed out a historically obvious fact that much of the high wages for the American worker derived from the land/resource per capita dynamic of its early history and the particular global circumstances of the post-war years, conditions that no longer obtain.


    Also, modern South Korea, Germany and Japan still maintain protectionism policies and they’re doing quite well, all things considered. China, poised to become the worlds largest economy by end of this decade also has an economy that is largely protectionism based.
     
    Except the dramatic rise of their standards of living in the post-war years has coincided with reductions in their tariffs and lowering other trade barriers. To be sure, all three have considerably higher non-tariff barriers (NTBs) than the U.S. has. But then again, they also have lower standards of living as well.

    Oops.

    You also are basically saying that runaway rates of immigration are no long term problem.
     

    Oops. No. Movement of goods and movement of people are not necessarily, or should be, the same. In fact, the whole idea of comparative advantages disappears if people can move freely.

    A nation that no longer predominantly produces its own food to feed its population and must rely upon free trade to feed itself is clearly, clearly headed in the wrong direction.
     
    As Japan and South Korea became richer, it has become dramatically less agrarian and, in the last twenty years or so, less industrial as well. Certainly they are not autarkic.

    I am strongly against mass immigration, illegal or otherwise, and I also agree that the risk-reward system in the United States has become destructively distorted of late, but it's foolish to think that unionism and protectionism will solve those problems. Why do you think unions today welcome immigrants?

    The genie of information technology (winner takes all in the cognitive-economic competition) and the vast network of global communication and transportation has been unleashed, and we will not be able to put it back into the bottle without incurring extreme dislocation and conflict. Perhaps some losers of that cognitive-economic competition welcome such an onslaught, but it will be extremely traumatic for most Americans.

  87. While there are still some remaining aerospace jobs in the area, my impression of the area now is that it has a lot of logistics work involved with importing crap from the ports of LA and LB and send ing them elsewhere by truck plane and rail. It is also near the In and Out HQ and where many Asian computer hardware companies put their US office.

  88. “Rifleman says

    Of course you would because thats the bizarre claim so many right wing White guys make online.

    You would of course be wrong because so called cultural maxism doesn’t really exist except in the minds of paranoids and their imaginary friends.”

    You’re a nitwit. Of course it exists.

  89. “Hacienda says”

    During Apollo, NASA’s budget was 4% of GDP.”

    You are wildly wrong. At it’s peak, NASA’s budget was about 4.4% of the total Federal budget – not of GDP. And that was only during one peak year.

  90. White birth rates seem very rarely mentioned in these kinds of write-ups. Why?

    Immigration and who is allowed legally or illegally to enter the US is an important topic, but European American families going from an average of 3 or 4 kids to the current 2 or less, is unsustainable. To fill the vacuum, replacement humans have to come from somewhere; for better or worse.

    • Replies: @Gordo
    "European American families going from an average of 3 or 4 kids to the current 2 or less, is unsustainable. To fill the vacuum, replacement humans have to come from somewhere; for better or worse."

    Why?
    , @Former Darfur
    Immigration and who is allowed legally or illegally to enter the US is an important topic, but European American families going from an average of 3 or 4 kids to the current 2 or less, is unsustainable. To fill the vacuum, replacement humans have to come from somewhere; for better or worse.

    No, no they don't. American whites quit breeding because the population was at the right level. We don't want much more than 200-250 million people in the continental US.

    Secure the borders and allow in just enough immigrants to allow for "boiloff", giving preference for English fluency, IQ and "Eurocentric Outlook". Get rid of illegals by making it impossible for them to work, get rid of H-1B and let tech salaries skyrocket. A first rate systems programmer or high level large systems admin should make what a doctor does because it is harder to train a good one than a physician. Med schools fail few admitted students, GOOD CS programs fail bunches of newbies.
  91. Carlsbad and the area directly inland is the closest thing to 1950’s Southern California remaining.

    It is affordable, run by conservative Republicans, and being developed with an eye towards preventing low-income housing (new houses are mostly 4000sf single family on large lots, with a few 1800sf townhouses in the center of each suburb aimed at empty nesters). You can even still buy a working farm (cut plants, citrus, and avocado) with a nice, large, and modern farm house for under $800,000 and be 25 minutes from the beach, 45 minutes from downtown San Diego, and 2 hours from downtown Los Angeles if you go early in the morning before rush hour. Now is a really good time to buy because the area is developing fast, rates are low, and the current drought is hurting prices.

    While the strip malls in the new developments are boring and ugly, at least they are new and in a nicer, more lavish style than old ones, full of tropical landscaping.

  92. @SFG
    You really think this is all about immigration?

    Sure, it doesn't help things. I'm in favor of building a giant fence and deporting illegals. But you really think the decline of the union movement, laws making it easier to hire and fire workers, tax cuts on the rich, Wall Street's financial engineering, and all the rest have nothing to do with it?

    I mean, not every problem is due to excess Mexican immigration. It exists, it's bad, and it's hurting a lot of people. But there's a lot more rot in the system, a lot more things hurting the average American, and a lot of them are done by the businessmen conservatives seem so fond of.

    “Sure, it doesn’t help things. I’m in favor of building a giant fence and deporting illegals. But you really think the decline of the union movement, laws making it easier to hire and fire workers, tax cuts on the rich, Wall Street’s financial engineering, and all the rest have nothing to do with it?” – Destroying labor scarcity is directly responsible for the fate of both the unions, and making it easier to fire workers, and the resulting transfer of wealth from the middle class to the wealthiest few is directly responsible for allowing them to buy laws more favorable to them. I’d say that those are effects, not causes.

  93. @Anonymous
    What is the farthest a manned spacecraft has gone in the last 35 years? And how far is the moon?

    The older I get, the more dubious I am that the US government actually sent men to the moon and brought them back given the technology at the time.

    • Replies: @stealth
    Now it's getting interesting!
  94. @Anonymous
    Well, it's just so obvious, it *is* all down to immigration.
    Look at just one the most salient facts that iSteve unearthed in the past few years, notably that result known as 'Schaeffer's number' - or the result that those on minimum pay don't even earn enough to pay for their own medical expenses, never mind every single other cost that life throws at them. Now, for these huge, huge numbers of people *someone* is paying their medical bills, their rent, their education costs, their food and clothing costs, and it's not them, of course, it's someone else whose wealth is being eroded to do it. No matter what lies and sophistry economists will throw at it, they cannot deny this basic, basic unchallengeable fact. But lie, lie and lie they do.
    Now, I'm not immigrant bashing for the sake of immigration bashing, but consider that the US white population has been more or less static for the last 40 years. Of course during that period the population grew by over 100 million - all third world immigrants. It is safe to say that millions upon millions of tax and productivity stealing losers were imported with that lot too. Simple arithmetic tells us that the causes of the fiscal and wage disaster are pretty damn obvious.
    Of course, if no immigration surge happened in the last 40 years, than America would have continued on the destiny economics ordained for it ie a high wage, high productivity hi-tech society.

    The low wage workers don’t earn enough to live on so their wages are in effect subsidized by the rest of society and so the business owners benefit which is why they and the Democrats joined forces to promote immigration. This is why I am starting to change my mind on the minimum wage even as a free market libertarian since it forces the employers to bear some of this subsidy themselves.

    • Replies: @Wilkey
    "This is why I am starting to change my mind on the minimum wage even as a free market libertarian since it forces the employers to bear some of this subsidy themselves."

    The Chamber of Commerce argument for mass unskilled immigration is that businesses have created millions of low-paid, unskilled jobs and not enough Americans to do them. If you raise the minimum wage, you reduce the number of low-paid jobs, and thus reduce the demand for illegal immigrants.

    Some people will argue that businesses will just hire illegal workers off the books, but there are good reasons why most businesses won't want to do that.
  95. @Rifleman

    Now, it goes w/o saying that immigration is never mentioned as a possible reason.
     
    Quite a few German immigrants helped America get to the moon.

    We have a visa program that allows people with outstanding skills or knowledge to come here. They have to be exceptional and prove it. Not just have notes from their mothers and immigration attorneys. Those German rocket scientists would have been the type of immigrants that visa program was intended for. But we do not need other visa program that are almost entirely riddled with fraud, or the importation of millions of mediocre , grievance ridden, burdensome people, we have an oversupply of them in Washington.

  96. @Steve Sailer
    Weren't the German rocket scientists pretty much kept behind barbed wired at an Army base near El Paso for the rest of the Forties?

    Weren’t the German rocket scientists pretty much kept behind barbed wired at an Army base near El Paso for the rest of the Forties?

    Michener’s Space has some good stuff on the relocation of German scientists to the USA. One of the principal (fictional) characters is a German rocketry expert named Dieter Kolff.

  97. @iSteveFan

    Quite a few German immigrants helped America get to the moon.
     
    I suppose Werner Von Braun was technically a German immigrant. But in reality he was more like war booty. I imagine other top German scientists were in the same boat.

    I suppose Werner Von Braun was technically a German immigrant. But in reality he was more like war booty. I imagine other top German scientists were in the same boat.

    Willing booty. von Braun and his associates knew that they were either going to be taken by the Soviets or by the Americans.They picked the Americans as the safer alternative:

    The Soviet Army was about 160 km (99 mi) from Peenemünde in the spring of 1945 when von Braun assembled his planning staff and asked them to decide how and to whom they should surrender. Afraid of the well-known Soviet cruelty to prisoners of war, von Braun and his staff decided to try to surrender to the Americans. Kammler had ordered relocation of von Braun’s team to central Germany; however, a conflicting order from an army chief ordered them to join the army and fight. Deciding that Kammler’s order was their best bet to defect to the Americans, von Braun fabricated documents and transported 500 of his affiliates to the area around Mittelwerk, where they resumed their work. For fear of their documents being destroyed by the SS, von Braun ordered the blueprints to be hidden in an abandoned mine shaft in the Harz mountain range.[42]

    While on an official trip in March, von Braun suffered a complicated fracture of his left arm and shoulder in a car accident after his driver fell asleep at the wheel. His injuries were serious, but he insisted that his arm be set in a cast so he could leave the hospital. Due to this neglect of the injury he had to be hospitalized again a month later where his bones had to be re-broken and re-aligned.[42]

    In April, as the Allied forces advanced deeper into Germany, Kammler ordered the science team to be moved by train into the town of Oberammergau in the Bavarian Alps where they were closely guarded by the SS with orders to execute the team if they were about to fall into enemy hands. However, von Braun managed to convince SS Major Kummer to order the dispersion of the group into nearby villages so that they would not be an easy target for U.S. bombers.[42]

    On May 2, 1945, upon finding an American private from the U.S. 44th Infantry Division, von Braun’s brother and fellow rocket engineer, Magnus, approached the soldier on a bicycle, calling out in broken English: “My name is Magnus von Braun. My brother invented the V-2. We want to surrender.”

  98. @Hapalong Cassidy
    I had only heard of Downey before because that's where Metallica was founded. Front man James Hetfield grew up there. It goes without saying that only a majority-white town could have spawned that type of music.

    I live down in OC now, but grew up in Downey. For people who only know the city as it is now, it’s hard for me to give them an idea of what it was like as recently as the 1980’s. Practically no blacks then. Actually, I understand there are still not many blacks there now, in spite of the fact (or perhaps because of the fact) that it’s gone almost wholly Latino.
    So far as musical groups from Downey, I see the obligatory Carpenters references (of course) but no mention of the roots-rockabilly pioneers the Blasters. Great band, and another example of the type of band that probably would only spring from a majority-white community.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Blasters -- great band.
  99. @Luke Lea
    There is really no mystery. Nafta, Gatt, and the 1965 Immigration act, all made in Washington DC, explain a big chunk of the problem -- a third? two-thirds? who knows? -- with the remainder a result of new labor saving technologies. You can't stop advances in technology -- who would want to -- but you can amend the 1937 Fair Labor Standards Act to compensate for steadily rising worker productivity. Amend it how? Legislate a family-friendly six-hour day with triple-pay for overtime.

    The resulting platform:

    1. An immigration moratorium (pause, time-out) -- in return for amnesty, if that's what it takes.

    2. A "labor-price-equalization-tax" on imports from low-wage countries like China (yes, old-fashioned protectionism, the only tried-and-true way to protect American wages).

    3. A six-hour day with triple-pay for overtime.

    The only other legislative solution I can imagine would be wage subsidies financed by a graduated expenditure tax, two things which we haven't yet learned how to do. Planks 1, 2, and 3 on the other hand are simple as pie.

    I'll get off my hobby horse now.

    Why not a four hour day with quadruple overtime. This is really ridiculous. Strong economy, feather bedding, protectionism pick at most two if you are lucky.

  100. What weird is you still have liberals writing books about how terrible “Operation Paperclip”, the US Program to bring German Scientists to the USA, was. Awful Nazis in America!!!!

    Like we should have let Stalin have them all.

    Crazy.

  101. @H
    Cultural CAPITALISM on the other hand rules the world and cultural capitalism wants America to be a low wage labor zone filled with massively indebted consumers.

    No borders, low tax, low wage and a blending of peoples and lands to serve the investor class and the corporations.

    American capitalists and politicians weren't always so pro-globalist.

    It’s amazing how many people confuse freedom with fascism.

  102. @fredyetagain aka superhonky
    I live down in OC now, but grew up in Downey. For people who only know the city as it is now, it's hard for me to give them an idea of what it was like as recently as the 1980's. Practically no blacks then. Actually, I understand there are still not many blacks there now, in spite of the fact (or perhaps because of the fact) that it's gone almost wholly Latino.
    So far as musical groups from Downey, I see the obligatory Carpenters references (of course) but no mention of the roots-rockabilly pioneers the Blasters. Great band, and another example of the type of band that probably would only spring from a majority-white community.

    Blasters — great band.

  103. @Dave Pinsen
    The peace dividend was longer drives.

    Well, not to turn this into a sports column, but actually titanium didn’t produce longer drives. Most golfers would hit the original Taylormade Burner steel driver (non-titanium) as far as they would any later model, given the same shaft type and length. This has been proved. As with almost everything else, marketing triumphs.

  104. Here’s an explanation, courtesy of someone who signed himself “Gil Not-Heron”:

    “Neil Armstrong died today
    (with Sambo on the dole)
    He’s done picked up and gone away
    (and Sambo’s on the dole)
    We can’t afford no moonshots now
    (with Sambo on the dole)
    Ten years from now we’ll be broke still
    (with Sambo on the dole)
    The man jus’ upped my taxes
    (’cause Sambo’s on the dole)
    No roads, no parks, no space program
    (but Sambo’s on the dole)
    I wonder why he’s uppin’ me
    (cause Sambo’s on the dole?)
    I paid over 50 grand last year
    (with Sambo on the dole)
    Taxes takin’ my whole damn check,
    Gangstas makin’ me a nervous wreck,
    The price of food is goin’ up,
    An’ as if all that crap wuzn’t enough:
    Neil Armstrong died today
    (with Sambo on the dole)
    He’s done picked up and gone away
    (but Sambo’s on the dole)
    Was all that money I made las’ year
    (for Sambo on the dole?)
    How come there ain’t no money here?
    (Hmm! Sambo’s on the dole)
    Y’know I jus’ ’bout had my fill
    (of Sambo on the dole)
    I think I’ll sen’ the taxman’s bills,
    Airmail special
    (to Sambo on the dole)”

    • Replies: @Hacienda
    According to this American favorite, the white master must always fall. As goes the master, so must go all his institutions.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rr4jeaaVGCA

  105. White birth rates seem very rarely mentioned in these kinds of write-ups. Why?

    Immigration and who is allowed legally or illegally to enter the US is an important topic, but European American families going from an average of 3 or 4 kids to the current 2 or less, is unsustainable. To fill the vacuum, replacement humans have to come from somewhere; for better or worse.

    First, there is no vacuum to fill. The USA is more than filled with enough people, European people BTW, to function as a super power that was capable of taking care of almost all of its needs, and defending itself against any nation on Earth.

    Second, since when does a nation’s population must always grow? Three to four kids per family means constant growth. How large do you want the USA to be? The USA had approximately 200 million people by 1968. Today we have close to 320 million, and by mid century we are expected to reach about 400 million. Is there a number that you wish to aim for, or do you just want each generation to have 3 to 4 kids?

    Third, the 1965 Immigration Act was crafted and passed at the tail end of the largest baby boom in US history. So I don’t buy the notion that we are taking in third worlders to fill the void.

    Fourth, even after the birth rates dropped back at the end of the baby boom, the US population was still growing due to the absolute number of young people created by the baby boom. So even though the average fertility rate per woman was lowering, the greater absolute number of women born during the baby boom would have ensured the US population continued to rise throughout the 1970s, 1980s and 1990s. Yet, we ramped up third world immigration exactly during this period.

    For a better explanation of this, see the NumbersUSA ‘gumball’ video. It is a 9 minute video where the presenter uses gumballs and charts to demonstrate what I just wrote.

    Fifth, there is a point to be made that importing aliens into a nation may DECREASE the birth rate of the native population. The late Lawrence Auster wrote this interesting passage:

    Immigration does not “replenish” a country’s population, it replaces it. American history is instructive on this point. Between 1790 and 1830, a period in which the total number of immigrants was about 385,000, or under 10,000 per year, the U.S. population increased by an astonishing nine million (from 3.9 million in 1790 to 12.9 million in 1830). This tripling was due mainly to the natural increase of the 1790 population, not to immigration. As population expert Francis A. Walker noted in a famous essay published in 1891, this very high native birthrate dropped subsequent to the upward turn of immigration after 1830 and the even sharper increase of immigration after 1840. The reason for this, Walker argued, was that immigrants lowered living standards, wage levels, and working conditions, which resulted in reduced prospects for the native population, which made having large families less attractive. Immigration thus caused a drop in the native birthrate, replacing those lost native births with immigrants.(12) The same effect of mass immigration on wages and working conditions is clearly in operation today, along with the same effect on the native birthrate.

    I could go on, but I will end with this. Immigration and MASS IMMIGRATION are not the same thing. Immigration allows INDIVIDUALS with needed skills to be brought into a nation WITHOUT altering that nation’s cultural, linguistic or demographic makeup. The nation remains the same, but benefits from a specific individual’s contribution.

    Mass immigration brings in entire communities and population groups, regardless of benefit to the host nation, with the express purpose of changing that nation’s cultural, linguistic and demographic makeup. The nation does not remain the same, and will probably become unrecognizable, if not undesirable, to the native population.

  106. @Mark Minter
    There is a whole category of immigration that is not being considered by comments in this post.

    There are two foreign worker programs, H1B and then another of foreign citizens who got masters degrees from US institutions that can be hired and are exempt from H1B limits. The limit on the first program is 65,000 and the second is 20,000. One set of calculations done in 2009 had set the number of these workers in the US at 650,000 taking into consideration applications and then various forms of attrition.

    Consider that 90% of those two numbers per year are still in America. H1B renewals were not effected by annual limits. Then added up over the history of all of it, and I can easily think back to 1995 and you start to have a tech population that is easily 35-40% of the total. It's been almost 20 years or more, by my count. And that does little to take in those "driven out", like one of my former managers who I met a few years later, that was installing cable. The trend of companies is to keep the H1B guy because of the "trickiness" of the application process and then lay off the local guy. Given the "up and down" nature of tech in the 2000s, layoffs in 2002-2003 had dramatic effect on some people, then they landed somewhere, maybe, then a few years later, to get hit again, often because they were in a new area technologically for them, and lacked or never gained the soundness in that field.

    One of the big deals, and this cannot be underplayed, is that much development went offshore. This was the nuts and bolts designing, writing, and testing of software. And for each developer job that went offshore, then usually support jobs went with it. Lots. So when coder jobs went over there, then so too did manager jobs, tester jobs, documentation jobs, all these jobs that provided really the "middle class" of tech.

    Also for many people, since the world of tech shifted in the US from onshore staff writing code to doing operations of systems created offshore, then for many people, they basically lost the value of their skills and had to learn to shift over into this new mode, running and maintaining systems instead of developing software. And it is not the same thing.

    Also as each "wave" of tech, even "versions" of major software products came out and migrated into use, often it was these newer immigrants that were hired to do it, mostly just because they were new, and the older employees were already mired in to the "old" stuff, because the old stuff was in production. For example, there was massive shift between Oracle 9 and Oracle 10. And really most of the world was using Oracle 8 and never converted to Oracle 9. And there was a huge degree of difference between the two. So projects might migrate to the new versions, when they had to. And these Indians were then hired to come in "learn" the Oracle 10, set it up, and what they learned what very much newer. So then eventually, the migrations were done, and overnight the skills of the locals were obsolete. And if they got laid off by economic conditions, when they went out to interview, nobody gave a crap about their experience. Especially when instead of 3 or 4 roughly capable candidates there were 10 like in 2008-2009.

    It just happened really "overnight". In the days before the dot com bust, Americans were the large majority of development then when recovery came, it was an Indian thing. And with the flow of the 85,000 per year more over the last 10 years, and consider this idea of Entryism where a small group gets in, then lets in more, and if they can control a dominant activity, then they can push out and lock out others not in their group.

    To me, the 90s proved that American tech salaries were the dominant driver in the economy. It drove the stock market. If people are working, then they contribute to 401K in a river of purchases. They can't take the money out; it just flows in and drives up the Market.

    The effect in the economy is very subtle. I once read about Fed Ex and UPS as bellweather companies. I asked the local driver about activity (in 2007) he said it was half of what it was the year before, 3 months later, the bottom fell out. The American programmers were chubby-ish white beta males. What they did with their salaries, at least what they personally got, was they drove used cars and they ate lunch, (thus the chubby), and they gave the rest to their wives. Their value to women was they were employed, honest, calm, dependable "Dads". Then the women took that money and drove the American economy. Indians do not do the same thing. Who knows how much money is sent from America to India. Also another fact is that Indian consulting companies drove out American companies, these smaller companies that would find talent, supply them for periods to bigger companies, pay the employees like a bank, then get paid by the bigger companies quarterly. A ton of smallish companies did this, as well as some very big ones. And they have driven out by the big Indian companies and many of these companies have very few employees onshore doing the administration of these contract employees. And consider the cost to American families, to American women in "where are all the good men", in fathers, and even in "kids born", kids that could have turned out to be somebody but never will give us the benefit of them living. I have this saying "It takes 1 guy with a good idea to feed 1000 people". Obviously there are bunch of those "1 guys" that never will be, either never get the exposure to even a clue about the idea, that never see a tech and think "fuck they're doing that all wrong", never have the benefit of these great American thinkers like Ritchie, the nerd from Staten Island who had to commute to Long Island on the ferry, then on the train, and he read semiconductor data books and drew me circuits on a napkin and taught me better than any prof, or Jim Dimino, the big burly Italian who literally was in a junior high gang with Sammy the Bull and missed the life because one night his dad heard some rumors and locked him in his bedroom. And Sammy and the rest got arrested for some stupid shit they did. And Jim went on to be this big designer in the Bell System and ran our design sessions with a yardstick in his hand and hollered at me and the others in that Italian Gangster accent, "Your fucking talking like you know what your talking about!" and then one day we did, because he hollered at us, with a ruler in his hand like a nun.

    I can go and on. H1B and outsourcing screwed the American middle class, and really is a self defeating thing for US companies. It is like steroids in sports. One competitor does it, then the rest have to. And no matter the cost to each, they can't stop or they lose. And because it started it dried up a lot of the pipeline of being coming into a field with entry level stuff.

    Even the guys that started Fairchild, got their start because the US Gov was paying a lot of people to work on tube based electronics. You learned tubes and circuits using them. Then shifted over to solid state. I can remember going to tech school, some pretty technical stuff, roughly the equivalent of Electronic Enginering without the fluff that a university program has. And at night we sat around and read Gearhead mags, Hot Rod, technical stuff about car engines because that was what guys did back then. The marriage of the two created this very competent bunch of guys, ones that could think in the "spatial" and then ones that were good with tools, lathes, mechanical stuff. When I first started in software, even then, it was nothing for guys I worked with to take the computers apart and do stuff to them, just look it and start point, "That must this thing, and that over there is that other thing." We ran our own cabling, we jumpered the boards ourselves, we installed new hardware, drives. We all had tools in our desks. It was very unique set of workers in the history of the world, guys that were just as comfortable under the hood of a car, as they were running bebuggers on code, and many were just as comfortable on a tractor or in a machine shop. And younger guys would come in, and these were the "teachers" they would encounter and learn from. This strange combination of Americanism and Protestantism all with a burly American macho swagger, this set of "shit testing" between guys, this sort of "get over here and learn something, idiot" teasing, that produced really incredible leaps and bounds.

    And now they are gone. And dudes from Punjab have those jobs now. And your son will never get them again.

    Mark Minter wrote:

    Even the guys that started Fairchild, got their start because the US Gov was paying a lot of people to work on tube based electronics. You learned tubes and circuits using them. Then shifted over to solid state. I can remember going to tech school, some pretty technical stuff, roughly the equivalent of Electronic Enginering without the fluff that a university program has.

    yeah, I learned the same stuff as an electronics tech nuke in the navy–tubes, semiconductors, machines, and more importantly, systems. Software was a natural for me. It’s a system, and ultimately it is simply a ladder logic system.
    ………

    And now they are gone. And dudes from Punjab have those jobs now. And your son will never get them again.

    Yup, we were betrayed by our politicians–because we have no control over them. Of course they sold us out–because they could sell us out! Again we come back to the lack of control over the government by the majority bloc.

    People forget how easy it was for tech people to get a tech job in Socal back then. Heck, I was offered a job doing electronics over the phone by a recruiter when I was being debriefed getting discharged out of the navy in san diego in 1981. The recruiter never even spoke to me–he offered me the job via a third party who answered the phone and answered the question as to whether there were any electronics techs being discharged that day. Those days are long gone.

  107. @Mark Minter
    There is a whole category of immigration that is not being considered by comments in this post.

    There are two foreign worker programs, H1B and then another of foreign citizens who got masters degrees from US institutions that can be hired and are exempt from H1B limits. The limit on the first program is 65,000 and the second is 20,000. One set of calculations done in 2009 had set the number of these workers in the US at 650,000 taking into consideration applications and then various forms of attrition.

    Consider that 90% of those two numbers per year are still in America. H1B renewals were not effected by annual limits. Then added up over the history of all of it, and I can easily think back to 1995 and you start to have a tech population that is easily 35-40% of the total. It's been almost 20 years or more, by my count. And that does little to take in those "driven out", like one of my former managers who I met a few years later, that was installing cable. The trend of companies is to keep the H1B guy because of the "trickiness" of the application process and then lay off the local guy. Given the "up and down" nature of tech in the 2000s, layoffs in 2002-2003 had dramatic effect on some people, then they landed somewhere, maybe, then a few years later, to get hit again, often because they were in a new area technologically for them, and lacked or never gained the soundness in that field.

    One of the big deals, and this cannot be underplayed, is that much development went offshore. This was the nuts and bolts designing, writing, and testing of software. And for each developer job that went offshore, then usually support jobs went with it. Lots. So when coder jobs went over there, then so too did manager jobs, tester jobs, documentation jobs, all these jobs that provided really the "middle class" of tech.

    Also for many people, since the world of tech shifted in the US from onshore staff writing code to doing operations of systems created offshore, then for many people, they basically lost the value of their skills and had to learn to shift over into this new mode, running and maintaining systems instead of developing software. And it is not the same thing.

    Also as each "wave" of tech, even "versions" of major software products came out and migrated into use, often it was these newer immigrants that were hired to do it, mostly just because they were new, and the older employees were already mired in to the "old" stuff, because the old stuff was in production. For example, there was massive shift between Oracle 9 and Oracle 10. And really most of the world was using Oracle 8 and never converted to Oracle 9. And there was a huge degree of difference between the two. So projects might migrate to the new versions, when they had to. And these Indians were then hired to come in "learn" the Oracle 10, set it up, and what they learned what very much newer. So then eventually, the migrations were done, and overnight the skills of the locals were obsolete. And if they got laid off by economic conditions, when they went out to interview, nobody gave a crap about their experience. Especially when instead of 3 or 4 roughly capable candidates there were 10 like in 2008-2009.

    It just happened really "overnight". In the days before the dot com bust, Americans were the large majority of development then when recovery came, it was an Indian thing. And with the flow of the 85,000 per year more over the last 10 years, and consider this idea of Entryism where a small group gets in, then lets in more, and if they can control a dominant activity, then they can push out and lock out others not in their group.

    To me, the 90s proved that American tech salaries were the dominant driver in the economy. It drove the stock market. If people are working, then they contribute to 401K in a river of purchases. They can't take the money out; it just flows in and drives up the Market.

    The effect in the economy is very subtle. I once read about Fed Ex and UPS as bellweather companies. I asked the local driver about activity (in 2007) he said it was half of what it was the year before, 3 months later, the bottom fell out. The American programmers were chubby-ish white beta males. What they did with their salaries, at least what they personally got, was they drove used cars and they ate lunch, (thus the chubby), and they gave the rest to their wives. Their value to women was they were employed, honest, calm, dependable "Dads". Then the women took that money and drove the American economy. Indians do not do the same thing. Who knows how much money is sent from America to India. Also another fact is that Indian consulting companies drove out American companies, these smaller companies that would find talent, supply them for periods to bigger companies, pay the employees like a bank, then get paid by the bigger companies quarterly. A ton of smallish companies did this, as well as some very big ones. And they have driven out by the big Indian companies and many of these companies have very few employees onshore doing the administration of these contract employees. And consider the cost to American families, to American women in "where are all the good men", in fathers, and even in "kids born", kids that could have turned out to be somebody but never will give us the benefit of them living. I have this saying "It takes 1 guy with a good idea to feed 1000 people". Obviously there are bunch of those "1 guys" that never will be, either never get the exposure to even a clue about the idea, that never see a tech and think "fuck they're doing that all wrong", never have the benefit of these great American thinkers like Ritchie, the nerd from Staten Island who had to commute to Long Island on the ferry, then on the train, and he read semiconductor data books and drew me circuits on a napkin and taught me better than any prof, or Jim Dimino, the big burly Italian who literally was in a junior high gang with Sammy the Bull and missed the life because one night his dad heard some rumors and locked him in his bedroom. And Sammy and the rest got arrested for some stupid shit they did. And Jim went on to be this big designer in the Bell System and ran our design sessions with a yardstick in his hand and hollered at me and the others in that Italian Gangster accent, "Your fucking talking like you know what your talking about!" and then one day we did, because he hollered at us, with a ruler in his hand like a nun.

    I can go and on. H1B and outsourcing screwed the American middle class, and really is a self defeating thing for US companies. It is like steroids in sports. One competitor does it, then the rest have to. And no matter the cost to each, they can't stop or they lose. And because it started it dried up a lot of the pipeline of being coming into a field with entry level stuff.

    Even the guys that started Fairchild, got their start because the US Gov was paying a lot of people to work on tube based electronics. You learned tubes and circuits using them. Then shifted over to solid state. I can remember going to tech school, some pretty technical stuff, roughly the equivalent of Electronic Enginering without the fluff that a university program has. And at night we sat around and read Gearhead mags, Hot Rod, technical stuff about car engines because that was what guys did back then. The marriage of the two created this very competent bunch of guys, ones that could think in the "spatial" and then ones that were good with tools, lathes, mechanical stuff. When I first started in software, even then, it was nothing for guys I worked with to take the computers apart and do stuff to them, just look it and start point, "That must this thing, and that over there is that other thing." We ran our own cabling, we jumpered the boards ourselves, we installed new hardware, drives. We all had tools in our desks. It was very unique set of workers in the history of the world, guys that were just as comfortable under the hood of a car, as they were running bebuggers on code, and many were just as comfortable on a tractor or in a machine shop. And younger guys would come in, and these were the "teachers" they would encounter and learn from. This strange combination of Americanism and Protestantism all with a burly American macho swagger, this set of "shit testing" between guys, this sort of "get over here and learn something, idiot" teasing, that produced really incredible leaps and bounds.

    And now they are gone. And dudes from Punjab have those jobs now. And your son will never get them again.

    an interesting book about a prior era – The Soul of a New Machine, by Tracy Kidder

  108. @crawfurdmuir
    Here's an explanation, courtesy of someone who signed himself "Gil Not-Heron":

    "Neil Armstrong died today
    (with Sambo on the dole)
    He’s done picked up and gone away
    (and Sambo’s on the dole)
    We can’t afford no moonshots now
    (with Sambo on the dole)
    Ten years from now we’ll be broke still
    (with Sambo on the dole)
    The man jus’ upped my taxes
    (’cause Sambo’s on the dole)
    No roads, no parks, no space program
    (but Sambo’s on the dole)
    I wonder why he’s uppin’ me
    (cause Sambo’s on the dole?)
    I paid over 50 grand last year
    (with Sambo on the dole)
    Taxes takin’ my whole damn check,
    Gangstas makin’ me a nervous wreck,
    The price of food is goin’ up,
    An’ as if all that crap wuzn’t enough:
    Neil Armstrong died today
    (with Sambo on the dole)
    He’s done picked up and gone away
    (but Sambo’s on the dole)
    Was all that money I made las’ year
    (for Sambo on the dole?)
    How come there ain’t no money here?
    (Hmm! Sambo’s on the dole)
    Y’know I jus’ ’bout had my fill
    (of Sambo on the dole)
    I think I’ll sen’ the taxman’s bills,
    Airmail special
    (to Sambo on the dole)"

    According to this American favorite, the white master must always fall. As goes the master, so must go all his institutions.

  109. @Mark Minter
    There is a whole category of immigration that is not being considered by comments in this post.

    There are two foreign worker programs, H1B and then another of foreign citizens who got masters degrees from US institutions that can be hired and are exempt from H1B limits. The limit on the first program is 65,000 and the second is 20,000. One set of calculations done in 2009 had set the number of these workers in the US at 650,000 taking into consideration applications and then various forms of attrition.

    Consider that 90% of those two numbers per year are still in America. H1B renewals were not effected by annual limits. Then added up over the history of all of it, and I can easily think back to 1995 and you start to have a tech population that is easily 35-40% of the total. It's been almost 20 years or more, by my count. And that does little to take in those "driven out", like one of my former managers who I met a few years later, that was installing cable. The trend of companies is to keep the H1B guy because of the "trickiness" of the application process and then lay off the local guy. Given the "up and down" nature of tech in the 2000s, layoffs in 2002-2003 had dramatic effect on some people, then they landed somewhere, maybe, then a few years later, to get hit again, often because they were in a new area technologically for them, and lacked or never gained the soundness in that field.

    One of the big deals, and this cannot be underplayed, is that much development went offshore. This was the nuts and bolts designing, writing, and testing of software. And for each developer job that went offshore, then usually support jobs went with it. Lots. So when coder jobs went over there, then so too did manager jobs, tester jobs, documentation jobs, all these jobs that provided really the "middle class" of tech.

    Also for many people, since the world of tech shifted in the US from onshore staff writing code to doing operations of systems created offshore, then for many people, they basically lost the value of their skills and had to learn to shift over into this new mode, running and maintaining systems instead of developing software. And it is not the same thing.

    Also as each "wave" of tech, even "versions" of major software products came out and migrated into use, often it was these newer immigrants that were hired to do it, mostly just because they were new, and the older employees were already mired in to the "old" stuff, because the old stuff was in production. For example, there was massive shift between Oracle 9 and Oracle 10. And really most of the world was using Oracle 8 and never converted to Oracle 9. And there was a huge degree of difference between the two. So projects might migrate to the new versions, when they had to. And these Indians were then hired to come in "learn" the Oracle 10, set it up, and what they learned what very much newer. So then eventually, the migrations were done, and overnight the skills of the locals were obsolete. And if they got laid off by economic conditions, when they went out to interview, nobody gave a crap about their experience. Especially when instead of 3 or 4 roughly capable candidates there were 10 like in 2008-2009.

    It just happened really "overnight". In the days before the dot com bust, Americans were the large majority of development then when recovery came, it was an Indian thing. And with the flow of the 85,000 per year more over the last 10 years, and consider this idea of Entryism where a small group gets in, then lets in more, and if they can control a dominant activity, then they can push out and lock out others not in their group.

    To me, the 90s proved that American tech salaries were the dominant driver in the economy. It drove the stock market. If people are working, then they contribute to 401K in a river of purchases. They can't take the money out; it just flows in and drives up the Market.

    The effect in the economy is very subtle. I once read about Fed Ex and UPS as bellweather companies. I asked the local driver about activity (in 2007) he said it was half of what it was the year before, 3 months later, the bottom fell out. The American programmers were chubby-ish white beta males. What they did with their salaries, at least what they personally got, was they drove used cars and they ate lunch, (thus the chubby), and they gave the rest to their wives. Their value to women was they were employed, honest, calm, dependable "Dads". Then the women took that money and drove the American economy. Indians do not do the same thing. Who knows how much money is sent from America to India. Also another fact is that Indian consulting companies drove out American companies, these smaller companies that would find talent, supply them for periods to bigger companies, pay the employees like a bank, then get paid by the bigger companies quarterly. A ton of smallish companies did this, as well as some very big ones. And they have driven out by the big Indian companies and many of these companies have very few employees onshore doing the administration of these contract employees. And consider the cost to American families, to American women in "where are all the good men", in fathers, and even in "kids born", kids that could have turned out to be somebody but never will give us the benefit of them living. I have this saying "It takes 1 guy with a good idea to feed 1000 people". Obviously there are bunch of those "1 guys" that never will be, either never get the exposure to even a clue about the idea, that never see a tech and think "fuck they're doing that all wrong", never have the benefit of these great American thinkers like Ritchie, the nerd from Staten Island who had to commute to Long Island on the ferry, then on the train, and he read semiconductor data books and drew me circuits on a napkin and taught me better than any prof, or Jim Dimino, the big burly Italian who literally was in a junior high gang with Sammy the Bull and missed the life because one night his dad heard some rumors and locked him in his bedroom. And Sammy and the rest got arrested for some stupid shit they did. And Jim went on to be this big designer in the Bell System and ran our design sessions with a yardstick in his hand and hollered at me and the others in that Italian Gangster accent, "Your fucking talking like you know what your talking about!" and then one day we did, because he hollered at us, with a ruler in his hand like a nun.

    I can go and on. H1B and outsourcing screwed the American middle class, and really is a self defeating thing for US companies. It is like steroids in sports. One competitor does it, then the rest have to. And no matter the cost to each, they can't stop or they lose. And because it started it dried up a lot of the pipeline of being coming into a field with entry level stuff.

    Even the guys that started Fairchild, got their start because the US Gov was paying a lot of people to work on tube based electronics. You learned tubes and circuits using them. Then shifted over to solid state. I can remember going to tech school, some pretty technical stuff, roughly the equivalent of Electronic Enginering without the fluff that a university program has. And at night we sat around and read Gearhead mags, Hot Rod, technical stuff about car engines because that was what guys did back then. The marriage of the two created this very competent bunch of guys, ones that could think in the "spatial" and then ones that were good with tools, lathes, mechanical stuff. When I first started in software, even then, it was nothing for guys I worked with to take the computers apart and do stuff to them, just look it and start point, "That must this thing, and that over there is that other thing." We ran our own cabling, we jumpered the boards ourselves, we installed new hardware, drives. We all had tools in our desks. It was very unique set of workers in the history of the world, guys that were just as comfortable under the hood of a car, as they were running bebuggers on code, and many were just as comfortable on a tractor or in a machine shop. And younger guys would come in, and these were the "teachers" they would encounter and learn from. This strange combination of Americanism and Protestantism all with a burly American macho swagger, this set of "shit testing" between guys, this sort of "get over here and learn something, idiot" teasing, that produced really incredible leaps and bounds.

    And now they are gone. And dudes from Punjab have those jobs now. And your son will never get them again.

    This strange combination of Americanism and Protestantism all with a burly American macho swagger, this set of “shit testing” between guys, this sort of “get over here and learn something, idiot” teasing, that produced really incredible leaps and bounds.

    I started out as a chemical engineer in a wafer fab in the early 1980s playing with nasty gases like arsine, phosphine and diborane. If a tank of silane got loose it was pyrophoric, it was like a silicon flame thrower. Applied Materials made these bell jar reactors that required etching at crazy high temperatures with gaseous HCl, that stuff occasionally got loose when a bell jar was raised without proper nitrogen purging. It was sometimes a dangerous job but fun as hell. We did everything from pulling silicon crystals to packaging, soup to nuts. Most of that work soon went to Japan and later to Taiwan and where-ever. I learned how to manage smart people in that business and am currently putting that experience to good use in other industries, however, I worry that future generations won’t have that opportunity in this country.

  110. @Hacienda
    During Apollo, NASA's budget was 4% of GDP.

    I get that installed manufacturing base is key part of space program.

    At the Apollo launches NASA had two classes of seating. One for VIPs and another for RAMs (Raggedy Ass Masses). The Apollo NASA loved you- the bourgeoisie. Today's NASA loves you more.

    During Apollo, NASA’s budget was 4% of GDP.

    During the period antedating 1972, nominal appropriations for NASA were at their peak in FY 1964/65 (during the Gemini program) and stood at $5.25 bn. Nominal gross domestic product was then about $710 bn per annum, so their budget amounted to 0.74% of gdp. The relative devotion of resources would have been somewhere on the order of that of the Food Stamp program or unemployment compensation today.

  111. @Chris
    White birth rates seem very rarely mentioned in these kinds of write-ups. Why?

    Immigration and who is allowed legally or illegally to enter the US is an important topic, but European American families going from an average of 3 or 4 kids to the current 2 or less, is unsustainable. To fill the vacuum, replacement humans have to come from somewhere; for better or worse.

    “European American families going from an average of 3 or 4 kids to the current 2 or less, is unsustainable. To fill the vacuum, replacement humans have to come from somewhere; for better or worse.”

    Why?

  112. @Reg Cæsar

    The 1924 Immigration Act helped black America, but hurt white America...
     
    Lucy, you got some 'splainin' to do...

    “are Krishna

    The 1924 Immigration Act helped black America, but hurt white America…

    Lucy, you got some ‘splainin’ to do…”

    I imagine Hare Krishna’s ‘splaination would be virtually identical to mine:

    The outbreak of WWI in the summer of 1914 caused an immediate sharp decrease in the number of European immigrants to the US. A war boom began in the US in 1915, thus ending the recession of 1913-14. The “Great Migration” of Southern Blacks to the North, beginning in ’15, occurred as Northern manufacturers began to employ Blacks in the place of the now-unavailable European immigrants. Freed of Southern-style Jim Crow restrictions, and earning relatively high industrial wages, this caused a massive migration of rural Southern Blacks to the urban North that would last until ca. 1970. All this allowed the beginnings of a Black middle class to develop, and set the stage for the civil rights revolution that would begin in the 1930s and be complete by the ’60s.

    The Black population of the US stood at 21% at the time of the American Revolution. This percentage would slowly fall over the next century and a half, partly due to higher birth rates, lower death rates, and longer life spans among Whites, but mostly due to the massive immigration of Europeans after 1830. The Black population would decline to under 10% in the 1920s, ’30s, & ’40s, reaching an all-time low of just 9.7% of the US population in 1930. (It was 12.6% in 2010).

    For example, Connecticut went from 2.9% Black in 1820 to 1.4% Black in 1910.

    New York went from 7.6% Black in 1790 to 1.2% Black in 1890.

    Pennsylvania went from 2.9% Black in 1820 to 1.9% Black in 1870.

    Michigan was 3.7% Black in 1800, but only 0.6% Black in 1910.

    Looking at pre-Great Migration statistics, it is amazing to see how Black the entire South was, (many Southern states had Black majorities or near-majorities) and how White was the rest of the country. The 1920s immigration cut-off contributed greatly to “nationalizing” the South’s “race problem”.

    Had the immigration cut-off of the ’20s not happened, and European immigration continued at its pre-WWI pace, and the ’65 immigration “reform” never occurred, and if “Operation Wetback” was made permanent, it is entirely probable that the White percentage of the US population would today be 95 or 96 percent of the total.

    • Replies: @HandsomeWhiteDevil
    Interestingly, the population of Hawaii was 18.7% White in 1900, 23.0% White in 1950, 32.0% White in 1960, and 38.8% White in 1970, falling to 33.0% White in 1980, due to the '65 immigration act.

    If not for this act, Hawaii would probably have a White majority today, but it is now only 24.7% White, and we have 'Kill a Haole Day' instead.
    , @AnAnon
    "Had the immigration cut-off of the ’20s not happened, and European immigration continued at its pre-WWI pace, and the ’65 immigration “reform” never occurred, and if “Operation Wetback” was made permanent, it is entirely probable that the White percentage of the US population would today be 95 or 96 percent of the total." - the only problem here is that America wouldn't be a nation under these conditions either. assimilation took the better part of a century with the door closed, it would not have happened had said door not closed. Likewise, the economic gains the average American made throughout more than half a century of the door being closed simply would not have happened.
    , @Reg Cæsar

    Had the immigration cut-off of the ’20s not happened… it is entirely probable that the White percentage of the US population would today be 95 or 96 percent of the total.
     
    Yeah, but how American would that "White" population be? We had serious assimilation problems with heavy European immigration a century ago.

    Or do you write off the restrictionists of the day as paranoid?
  113. @JSM
    As Paul Kersey says, we could have had Mars. Instead the money got spent subsidizing the reproduction of the underclass.

    My son loves space. White America's loss of the Final Frontier makes me so grief-stricken I want to throw up.

    As Paul Kersey says, we could have had Mars. Instead the money got spent subsidizing the reproduction of the underclass.

    And subsidizing all the government workers who looked after the underclass.

    A huge bureaucracy or city, state and federal workers got jobs, benefits and pensions doing that.

  114. @yaqub the mad scientist
    They were war booty. I know a fellow whose grandfather was one of those scientists flown in. They were basically told that in exchange for not being Nuremberged, they would work for America and have nice cottages in a place called Huntsville, Alabama.

    They were basically told that in exchange for not being Nuremberged,

    I think you mean subject to de-Nazificaton courts. With a few exceptions, the Nuremburg defendants were fairly senior military officers or high officials in the security apparat, the occupation governments, the SS, &c. There were a few odd cases that seem to have been thrown in so the court could acquit someone (one a Weimar politician who spent the war in a diplomatic post in Turkey, one a mid-level official of the propaganda ministry, and one the former governor of the central bank) and Julius Streicher for being utterly grotesque. There was no one analogous to von Braun on the docket. Von Braun joined the Nazi Party in the late 1930s when it was expedient to have a membership card and the SS in 1940 for murky reasons. The rap on von Braun and and the like has been that they could have requested a transfer to get away from the slave labor system in munitions factories but did not (and I suppose you could have added humbug charges like ‘waging aggressive war” for which Adm. Donitz and Dr. Schacht were indicted).

  115. Given that the US has relatively cheap housing, and that you guys don’t have problems with skilled workers emigrating ( a big problem in the UK, and a major headache for economic planners) your economic situation for most workers should be a lot better than it is.

    Apart from offshoring issues there seems to be two big problems that are making life tough for the US middle class:

    1. excessive immigration, particularly of low-skilled workers and workers in sectors without serious labour shortages (which you’ve already highlighted)

    2. a big disconnect between the education system and the economy

    The US has the highest level of student debt in the western world and also one of the highest levels of graduate underemployment among western nations. Why don’t US captains of industry admit this is a problem and recommend that college intakes be regulated in line with market demand? or at least provide students which accurate information about labour market outcomes for graduates.

    The education industrial complex runs according to a unique economic model (let’s call it “free market socialism”) which manages to combine the worst aspects of socialism and capitalism.

  116. @HandsomeWhiteDevil
    "@Hare Krishna

    The 1924 Immigration Act helped black America, but hurt white America…

    Lucy, you got some ‘splainin’ to do…"

    I imagine Hare Krishna's 'splaination would be virtually identical to mine:

    The outbreak of WWI in the summer of 1914 caused an immediate sharp decrease in the number of European immigrants to the US. A war boom began in the US in 1915, thus ending the recession of 1913-14. The "Great Migration" of Southern Blacks to the North, beginning in '15, occurred as Northern manufacturers began to employ Blacks in the place of the now-unavailable European immigrants. Freed of Southern-style Jim Crow restrictions, and earning relatively high industrial wages, this caused a massive migration of rural Southern Blacks to the urban North that would last until ca. 1970. All this allowed the beginnings of a Black middle class to develop, and set the stage for the civil rights revolution that would begin in the 1930s and be complete by the '60s.

    The Black population of the US stood at 21% at the time of the American Revolution. This percentage would slowly fall over the next century and a half, partly due to higher birth rates, lower death rates, and longer life spans among Whites, but mostly due to the massive immigration of Europeans after 1830. The Black population would decline to under 10% in the 1920s, '30s, & '40s, reaching an all-time low of just 9.7% of the US population in 1930. (It was 12.6% in 2010).

    For example, Connecticut went from 2.9% Black in 1820 to 1.4% Black in 1910.

    New York went from 7.6% Black in 1790 to 1.2% Black in 1890.

    Pennsylvania went from 2.9% Black in 1820 to 1.9% Black in 1870.

    Michigan was 3.7% Black in 1800, but only 0.6% Black in 1910.

    Looking at pre-Great Migration statistics, it is amazing to see how Black the entire South was, (many Southern states had Black majorities or near-majorities) and how White was the rest of the country. The 1920s immigration cut-off contributed greatly to "nationalizing" the South's "race problem".

    Had the immigration cut-off of the '20s not happened, and European immigration continued at its pre-WWI pace, and the '65 immigration "reform" never occurred, and if "Operation Wetback" was made permanent, it is entirely probable that the White percentage of the US population would today be 95 or 96 percent of the total.

    Interestingly, the population of Hawaii was 18.7% White in 1900, 23.0% White in 1950, 32.0% White in 1960, and 38.8% White in 1970, falling to 33.0% White in 1980, due to the ’65 immigration act.

    If not for this act, Hawaii would probably have a White majority today, but it is now only 24.7% White, and we have ‘Kill a Haole Day’ instead.

  117. @yaqub the mad scientist
    They were war booty. I know a fellow whose grandfather was one of those scientists flown in. They were basically told that in exchange for not being Nuremberged, they would work for America and have nice cottages in a place called Huntsville, Alabama.

    About 20 years ago I was working in North Alabama and one day I went to the Huntsville library. There was a section with foreign newspapers. I saw a man about 80 years old reading a German newspaper. He looked pleased.

  118. @countenance
    It could also have something to do with the group of people who didn't want us to go to the moon the first time, that being Africanus Bellcurvius and their civil rights agitators:

    http://www.amazon.com/Whitey-Moon-Politics-death-Program-ebook/dp/B00M2766EI

    Clearly you’re not familiar with the Old Negro Space Program:

  119. @Hapalong Cassidy
    I had only heard of Downey before because that's where Metallica was founded. Front man James Hetfield grew up there. It goes without saying that only a majority-white town could have spawned that type of music.

    “I had only heard of Downey before because that’s where Metallica was founded. Front man James Hetfield grew up there. It goes without saying that only a majority-white town could have spawned that type of music.”

    Also Dave & Phil Alvin of The Blasters. Great band, great music.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Saw the Blasters twice in 1981 or 1982, including opening for the Boomtown Rats. Saw one of the Alvin Brothers around 1985-86 in Chicago.
  120. @Anonymous
    Apparently, the UK workforce has never been so big. Never before have so many workers been in employment.
    Now, one would expect under these circumstances for the UK treasury to be awash with cash, as one would have thought more workers equals more income tax.
    But, not a bit of it. The UK fiscal deficit is still stubbornly, enormously high and huge, huge public spending cuts, on top of those already made, are planned for the near future. Income tax receipts into the UK treasury have simply not increased.
    The reason? - the massive, uncontrolled immigration into the UK started by New Labour, and continued by the Tories has added millions to the UK workforce. But in the main they are badly paid. Their competition has dragged down wage rates to the irreducible minimum, such workers pay very little to zero income tax in the UK. But, they are entitled to huge 'family credit' taxpayer paid cash bonuses, combined with huge liabilities attendant to education and socialized UK health care.
    But never but never will you hear The Economist magazine state this obvious truth.

    “Now, one would expect under these circumstances for the UK treasury to be awash with cash, as one would have thought more workers equals more income tax.”

    Well consider that Obama’s deficits have all been worse than all but one of Bush’s deficits (his last, most of it during Obama’s first year in office). That’s with a growing economy, a booming stock market, and interest rates at nearly zero. If a ~$500 billion federal budget deficit is the new normal for the good times, what will it be like when the economy heads south again?

    The US faces the same budget problems as the UK.

  121. @V Vega
    The older I get, the more dubious I am that the US government actually sent men to the moon and brought them back given the technology at the time.

    Now it’s getting interesting!

  122. @Flip
    The low wage workers don't earn enough to live on so their wages are in effect subsidized by the rest of society and so the business owners benefit which is why they and the Democrats joined forces to promote immigration. This is why I am starting to change my mind on the minimum wage even as a free market libertarian since it forces the employers to bear some of this subsidy themselves.

    “This is why I am starting to change my mind on the minimum wage even as a free market libertarian since it forces the employers to bear some of this subsidy themselves.”

    The Chamber of Commerce argument for mass unskilled immigration is that businesses have created millions of low-paid, unskilled jobs and not enough Americans to do them. If you raise the minimum wage, you reduce the number of low-paid jobs, and thus reduce the demand for illegal immigrants.

    Some people will argue that businesses will just hire illegal workers off the books, but there are good reasons why most businesses won’t want to do that.

  123. @Rifleman

    I would say the biggest reasons are Cultural Marxism
     
    Of course you would because thats the bizarre claim so many right wing White guys make online.

    You would of course be wrong because so called cultural maxism doesn't really exist except in the minds of paranoids and their imaginary friends.

    Cultural CAPITALISM on the other hand rules the world and cultural capitalism wants America to be a low wage labor zone filled with massively indebted consumers.

    No borders, low tax, low wage and a blending of peoples and lands to serve the investor class and the corporations.

    It's not even a conspiracy. Its obvious and its everywhere.

    Cultural CAPITALISM on the other hand rules the world and cultural capitalism wants America to be a low wage labor zone filled with massively indebted consumers.

    But Cultural CAPITALISM can’t say that out loud so it uses Cultural Marxism as its public belief system.

  124. The middle class took America to the moon. Then something went horribly wrong.

    Diversity, open borders, mass immigration, the triumph of liberalism, the welfare state, the black undertow, and the War on Whites.

    The end.

  125. There are far too many juicy opportunities to make money that the corporations won’t touch for the whole problem to be about money. Examine the extensive list of taboos, and assign each of them to the “pro-majority/producers” or “anti-majority/producers” category (keeping in mind that the majority/producers are your best customers) before mouthing off about how it’s all about the money. It’s only just about the money when it’s not about “who-whom?”

    2. A “labor-price-equalization-tax” on imports from low-wage countries like China (yes, old-fashioned protectionism, the only tried-and-true way to protect American wages).

    Yep. I don’t see why countries with legalized slavery/serfdom should be allowed to take advantage of our markets, where slavery and serfdom are banned.

    Quite a few German immigrants helped America get to the moon.

    Yeah, all 50 of them. Maybe we can really make this obvious by offering citizenship to the 50 would-be immigrants who do the best job delegitimizing the open borders movement.

  126. Yeah, the Carpenters pretty much encapsulate the opportunities for the white middle class –and indeed the non-white middle class — that was pre 1965 California. Transplants (early in their lives) from the East Coast, public school band, touring the country in a van. I’d put KC’s voice and Richard Carpenter’s arrangements up against anyone. The interesting thing is if you go to some Carpenter’s stuff on youtube, half the comments will be from Latinos (here and abroad) and Asians (here and abroad).

    Also amazing is footage from her funeral. Major stars simply drive up, park, and walk into the church. None of the grand ‘entrances’ of today.

    • Replies: @Anonymous Nephew
    Karen wasn't a bad drummer either in her style (not Carl Palmer). Some nice youtube videos - I think from Australian shows - of her drumming while also singing beautifully.
  127. “White birth rates seem very rarely mentioned in these kinds of write-ups. Why?

    Immigration and who is allowed legally or illegally to enter the US is an important topic, but European American families going from an average of 3 or 4 kids to the current 2 or less, is unsustainable. To fill the vacuum, replacement humans have to come from somewhere; for better or worse.”

    1) No they don’t, anymore than we need ‘replacement farmers’ for the millions that left ag in the 20th century. What we do need is a better way of financing the retirement system, since wages are less and less a component of national income.

    2) Perhaps if there weren’t constant downward pressure, Euro-Americans could afford and extra kid or two, or not waste years in college and grad school and have more kids that way. After all, the Baby Boom happened during the Great Immigration Restriction.

    • Replies: @Clyde

    1) No they don’t, anymore than we need ‘replacement farmers’ for the millions that left ag in the 20th century. What we do need is a better way of financing the retirement system, since wages are less and less a component of national income.
     
    Automation came first
    Computerization next
    Robotization of the workplace is just gearing up......

    And will replace many unskilled workers while driving down their wages and skilled workers wages. We don't need any more unskilled 3rd worlders who don't speak English and who are not too bright. They are a net economic drain from the system when we see all they take from our social welfare systems. They sure as hell will not be helping older Americans to retire.

    We have enough third worlders here. Some (blacks) have been here for a few hundred years. Just about all Hispanics are the result of post WW2 immigration. America was always an Anglo country with a black minority that was 9-10% in 1950. Throw in a very few Asians and Amerindians in 1950.

    The real trick here is to get our internal third world populations off their asses and into the fields. Bus them in from the cities, I don't care. Its not that easy to automate/roboticize growing and picking cabbages/lettuce/carrots. Same for tree crops such as cherries, apples, walnuts, almonds. They can only be automated around the edges.

    But once you get indoors out of the rain and wind, into manufacturing plants, offices, restaurants and retail, there in plenty more room for various hi-tech to eliminate workers. MacDonald's is introducing touch screen ordering as a response to the OWS type agitation for high minimum wages

  128. “While the strip malls in the new developments are boring and ugly, at least they are new and in a nicer, more lavish style than old ones, full of tropical landscaping.”

    Fake italianate architecture and disney-fide, Florida wanna-be over the top landscaping. Pointless palms which are actually fairly water-demanding, very labor demanding, and useless. (One study in Israel found that palms, rather than providing shade, actually increase ground temperatures). All of this made possible by cheap labor.

    http://www.citylab.com/cityfixer/2011/12/problem-palm-trees/748/

    There is a reason that mid-century architechture is back in vogue, hopefully the joys of bougainvillea, cypress, and false morning glory will be rediscovered.

  129. Leftist Conservative, you’ve now in my “automatically scroll past” category. Just thought you might want to know.

    White birth rates seem very rarely mentioned in these kinds of write-ups. Why?

    Immigration and who is allowed legally or illegally to enter the US is an important topic, but European American families going from an average of 3 or 4 kids to the current 2 or less, is unsustainable. To fill the vacuum, replacement humans have to come from somewhere; for better or worse.

    Please explain this “vacuum” that must be filled.

    Then explain why Japan’s immune (and why, to the extent they aren’t, they’re filling their “vacuum” with people from the same racial group as the Japanese, and not blacks, mestizos, central Asians, Pacific Islanders, Australian aborigines, south Asians, Malaysians, Middle Easterners, or Europeans. Or rather, why they prevent their “vacuum” from being filled with the latter.

    • Replies: @leftist conservative
    Svigor wrote:


    Leftist Conservative, you’ve now in my “automatically scroll past” category. Just thought you might want to know.

     

    That ol' cognitive dissonance, she do sting a mite, don't she?
  130. China’s got a one-child policy. They must be desperately craving some racially alien immigration. They’re creating a “vacuum” that “must” be filled, after all.

    For that matter, Mexico must be desperately craving some racially alien immigration. They’re creating a huge “vacuum” by moving half of their population over their norther border to fill the “vacuum” in the US.

  131. @William Badwhite
    "I had only heard of Downey before because that’s where Metallica was founded. Front man James Hetfield grew up there. It goes without saying that only a majority-white town could have spawned that type of music."

    Also Dave & Phil Alvin of The Blasters. Great band, great music.

    Saw the Blasters twice in 1981 or 1982, including opening for the Boomtown Rats. Saw one of the Alvin Brothers around 1985-86 in Chicago.

    • Replies: @Seneca
    Played guitar in some bands (nobody famous) in L.A. for a couple of years in the early 1980's before going to law school back east. Spent some time hanging out with guys in graduate film school at UCLA (writing music for their movies and in general just hanging out with them) Lived in Redondo Beach and then North Hollywood. Also read scripts for a year at a small movie studio for minimum wage (read one thing that actually got made ...a grade B film called Up the the Creek IIRC). I recall many great times during those years....L.A. was great.

    Sold one of my guitars to Phil Alvin, and hung out with the band when they were recording one of their albums (1983's Non Fiction) Later ran into the band in NYC when they came to visit the east coast. Phil told me that the guitar I sold him was stolen while they were on tour. It was a Gibson double cutaway hollow body 347 and a real beauty...such a shame. Both brothers and the band were super cool and the nicest bunch of guys. Phil especially was very warm, outgoing, and friendly. Great guys.
  132. @Svigor
    Leftist Conservative, you've now in my "automatically scroll past" category. Just thought you might want to know.

    White birth rates seem very rarely mentioned in these kinds of write-ups. Why?

    Immigration and who is allowed legally or illegally to enter the US is an important topic, but European American families going from an average of 3 or 4 kids to the current 2 or less, is unsustainable. To fill the vacuum, replacement humans have to come from somewhere; for better or worse.
     

    Please explain this "vacuum" that must be filled.

    Then explain why Japan's immune (and why, to the extent they aren't, they're filling their "vacuum" with people from the same racial group as the Japanese, and not blacks, mestizos, central Asians, Pacific Islanders, Australian aborigines, south Asians, Malaysians, Middle Easterners, or Europeans. Or rather, why they prevent their "vacuum" from being filled with the latter.

    Svigor wrote:

    Leftist Conservative, you’ve now in my “automatically scroll past” category. Just thought you might want to know.

    That ol’ cognitive dissonance, she do sting a mite, don’t she?

  133. @M_Young
    Yeah, the Carpenters pretty much encapsulate the opportunities for the white middle class --and indeed the non-white middle class -- that was pre 1965 California. Transplants (early in their lives) from the East Coast, public school band, touring the country in a van. I'd put KC's voice and Richard Carpenter's arrangements up against anyone. The interesting thing is if you go to some Carpenter's stuff on youtube, half the comments will be from Latinos (here and abroad) and Asians (here and abroad).

    Also amazing is footage from her funeral. Major stars simply drive up, park, and walk into the church. None of the grand 'entrances' of today.

    Karen wasn’t a bad drummer either in her style (not Carl Palmer). Some nice youtube videos – I think from Australian shows – of her drumming while also singing beautifully.

    • Replies: @Former Darfur
    Karen wasn’t a bad drummer either in her style (not Carl Palmer). Some nice youtube videos – I think from Australian shows – of her drumming while also singing beautifully.

    I'd put her up against Carl Palmer any day. Earl Palmer no, but Carl sure.


    But then again I think Clem Burke is better than either Moon or Bonham.
  134. That ol’ cognitive dissonance, she do sting a mite, don’t she?

    Whatever floats your boat. You say cognitive dissonance, I say boredom. Whiskey says dissonance, I say disgust. Moot now, innit?

    P.S., One of us calls himself a conservative.

  135. @Jefferson
    Downey is only Beverly Hills by Mexican standards because the bar is set so low for Mexicans. The bar is never set high for Mexicans. Mexicans after all are a NAM group just like African Americans so you can not put too much high expectations on them.

    By the real Beverly Hills standards, Downey is working class at best. You know you are in a truly affluent zip code in Southern California when a lot of your neighbors are Jewish. And Downey just does not have a lot of Jews.

    “You know you are in a truly affluent zip code in Southern California when a lot of your neighbors are Jewish. And Downey just does not have a lot of Jews.”

    By those standards, there are no affluent zip codes in the San Gabriel Valley, only one in Santa Barbara County, and only a couple in Orange County. And not many in San Diego.

  136. Why hasn’t economic growth translated into more jobs or higher incomes?

    Could it be that the growth itself is fake?

    http://www.shadowstats.com/alternate_data/gross-domestic-product-charts

  137. ““You know you are in a truly affluent zip code in Southern California when a lot of your neighbors are Jewish. And Downey just does not have a lot of Jews.”

    By those standards, there are no affluent zip codes in the San Gabriel Valley, only one in Santa Barbara County, and only a couple in Orange County. And not many in San Diego.”

    Jews don’t have to be the majority of an affluent zip code’s population, they just have to be overrepresented compared to their 2 percent share of the national population. I guarantee Jews make up more than 2 percent of Southern California’s rich affluent zip codes. Steve Sailer most likely has Jewish neighbors since he lives in an affluent area of Los Angeles.

    • Replies: @Hare Krishna
    Sailer lives in the Southeastern San Fernando Valley, which has had a large Jewish population for many decades, given the presence of the film industry there.

    Affluent areas in Los Angeles County which are within the area influenced by the entertainment industry have large Jewish populations. Affluent areas which are not within the area influenced by the entertainment industry are a different story.
  138. “Please explain this “vacuum” that must be filled.

    Then explain why Japan’s immune (and why, to the extent they aren’t, they’re filling their “vacuum” with people from the same racial group as the Japanese, and not blacks, mestizos, central Asians, Pacific Islanders, Australian aborigines, south Asians, Malaysians, Middle Easterners, or Europeans. Or rather, why they prevent their “vacuum” from being filled with the latter.”

    There are 345 thousand Latin Americans living in Japan, but the vast majority of them have Japanese blood pumping through their hearts. Mostly coming from Brazil and Peru. They do not let in a lot of Latin Americans who are genetically zero percent Japanese.

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Uh, 345k.....out of a total population of 120 million.

    Somehow that 345k doesn't sound like a significant minority of anything. And of course, Japan stopped immigrating to Brazil/Peru roughly about a century ago. Also, Japan isn't exactly welcoming more and more from Brazil/Peru in even at that. Why would they? They really don't need them. To get a firm grasp of how Japan feels about unlimited immigration all anyone has to do is observe how they've treated their ancient rival, Korea. Still not entirely sure why Japan doesn't just kick out the Koreans and send them all packing back to Korea. They'd probably be happier in their original nation than in Japan. Especially because.....Koreans are not Japanese.

    It is not our nation and thus they have the right to control their own national destiny without outside interference. One nice advantage of Japan is that they don't have a western style alphabet, so African and rest of South American nations that were heavily colonized by Europeans will have the devil of a time attempting to learn that type of system.

    Also, the question seldom ever asked, why exactly would a person living between 5-10k miles away suddenly wake up and tell their family "Guess what? We're all gonna migrate, to Japan! That's how we'll make our fortune! Let's do it!"

    And of course another advantage is that Japan is an island so there's technically no land connecting "border" to sneak across, under, or over. Border partrol is thus much easier to control.

    On a larger scale, Japan in some of these regards are similar to another island nation, Iceland. The birth of modern western Parliamentary system.

  139. People should probably be aware of these surprising statistics:

    http://www.academia.edu/179045/_Public_Opinion_Polls_and_Perceptions_of_US_Human_Spaceflight_

    More popularized accounts:

    http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2012/09/moondoggle-the-forgotten-opposition-to-the-apollo-program/262254/

    http://www.cracked.com/article_19676_5-ridiculous-cold-war-myths-you-learned-in-history-class.html (#4)

    http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/ten-enduring-myths-about-the-us-space-program-1969206/?no-ist= (#1)

    Probably some of this came from leftists, but probably also some from Taft Republicans who just didn’t like to spend money. I suspect it is no coincidence that Mondale and Proxmire came from the Upper Midwest, where these two traditions overlapped. (I wonder how National Review felt at the time. I say 50/50 chance they were apathetic/negative.)

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    NR was then as now pretty gung ho on national defense spending because Buckley was a Cold War Hawk. Anything to beat the Soviets to the moon and show them who was the better of the two nations.

    Of course, since Steve was a regular reader of NR back around that time, perhaps he could recall NR's official stance on NASA spending in general.
  140. @Chris
    White birth rates seem very rarely mentioned in these kinds of write-ups. Why?

    Immigration and who is allowed legally or illegally to enter the US is an important topic, but European American families going from an average of 3 or 4 kids to the current 2 or less, is unsustainable. To fill the vacuum, replacement humans have to come from somewhere; for better or worse.

    Immigration and who is allowed legally or illegally to enter the US is an important topic, but European American families going from an average of 3 or 4 kids to the current 2 or less, is unsustainable. To fill the vacuum, replacement humans have to come from somewhere; for better or worse.

    No, no they don’t. American whites quit breeding because the population was at the right level. We don’t want much more than 200-250 million people in the continental US.

    Secure the borders and allow in just enough immigrants to allow for “boiloff”, giving preference for English fluency, IQ and “Eurocentric Outlook”. Get rid of illegals by making it impossible for them to work, get rid of H-1B and let tech salaries skyrocket. A first rate systems programmer or high level large systems admin should make what a doctor does because it is harder to train a good one than a physician. Med schools fail few admitted students, GOOD CS programs fail bunches of newbies.

  141. Then on the legal side immigration should become 100% skills based which nations such as Canada and Australia do. This will tilt our system to allowing in more Europeans. Millions of skilled, hi-IQ, English speaking, culturally Christian East Europeans (South Africans too!) would love to come here. We need a 5-10 year moratorium on 3rd world immigration. They have been hogging our legal immigration slots for 50 years since the 1965 immigration passed.

    If the US did have an immigration system similar to Canada’s. (overrated IMO) I doubt the US would receive many European immigrants. European immigrants only comprise 11-13 percent of immigrants coming to Canada over the last few years. In fact, I think more Africans than Europeans came last year. Part of this is the EU free movement of people that sucks East Europeans in to western Europe since it is closer and more convenient for them. Also, many heavily immigrant areas in Canada have high rates of poverty, unemployment and under-employment. White collar immigrants and university graduates saturate the professional job market each year.

    andsome White Devil

    Looking at pre-Great Migration statistics, it is amazing to see how Black the entire South was, (many Southern states had Black majorities or near-majorities) and how White was the rest of the country. The 1920s immigration cut-off contributed greatly to “nationalizing” the South’s “race problem”.

    Canada’s black population reached a low point of just 0.1 percent in 1951 and climbed to only 0.2 percent by 1970. After the immigration change in the late 60’s blacks grew to just under 2 percent of the population by 1991. I bet if the south had won the civil war and separated (unlikely and disastrous result) the north east would have dropped to similar levels by the 1950s since it would be cut off from migration from the south.

    • Replies: @HandsomeWhiteDevil
    "Canada’s black population reached a low point of just 0.1 percent in 1951 and climbed to only 0.2 percent by 1970. After the immigration change in the late 60′s blacks grew to just under 2 percent of the population by 1991."

    I visited Montreal in 1973, then again in 2000. Coming from NYC, which was rapidly circling the drain in '73, Montreal at that time seemed so clean, quiet, and orderly. And I saw not a single non-white person. Returning in 2000, what a difference! Litter everywhere, particularly empty cigarette packs, and I was panhandled three times. Again, a mirror-image contrast with Giuliani-era New York, but in the opposite direction. But the biggest change was the large amount of Blacks. What a huge demographic change in just one generation.

    "I bet if the south had won the civil war and separated (unlikely and disastrous result) the north east would have dropped to similar levels by the 1950s since it would be cut off from migration from the south."

    I've long been of the opinion that if the CSA had succeeded in winning its independence, it would today be just another average Black-majority country. Poor, violent, dysfunctional, and corrupt.

    Instead of hissing at Lincoln as the Devil incarnate, Southrons should be on their knees thanking him that they were saved from such a fate...
  142. @Anonymous Nephew
    Karen wasn't a bad drummer either in her style (not Carl Palmer). Some nice youtube videos - I think from Australian shows - of her drumming while also singing beautifully.

    Karen wasn’t a bad drummer either in her style (not Carl Palmer). Some nice youtube videos – I think from Australian shows – of her drumming while also singing beautifully.

    I’d put her up against Carl Palmer any day. Earl Palmer no, but Carl sure.

    But then again I think Clem Burke is better than either Moon or Bonham.

    • Replies: @Ezra
    I'm pretty sure Hal Blaine played drums for The Carpenters on the records, but he subbed in for pretty much every drummer in Southern California from 1962 to 1978.
  143. Don’t forget the real heroes of NASSA and The Old Negro Space Program:
    http://youtu.be/T6xJzAYYrX8

  144. Whatever. Check out the Indians celebrating their recent MARs mission.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-29357472

    Whitey isn’t the only moonable man.

  145. @Former Darfur
    Karen wasn’t a bad drummer either in her style (not Carl Palmer). Some nice youtube videos – I think from Australian shows – of her drumming while also singing beautifully.

    I'd put her up against Carl Palmer any day. Earl Palmer no, but Carl sure.


    But then again I think Clem Burke is better than either Moon or Bonham.

    I’m pretty sure Hal Blaine played drums for The Carpenters on the records, but he subbed in for pretty much every drummer in Southern California from 1962 to 1978.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    I’m pretty sure Hal Blaine played drums for The Carpenters on the records…
     
    When he was hired to do so, he checked out Karen's skills and said he was impressed. So, why didn't he do the chivalrous thing and tell the client to keep her? He sure wasn't hard up for work-- that's not what the fine print on my '70s LP collection tells me.

    I nominate Karen as the best singing drummer ever, hands down.
  146. “Whatever. Check out the Indians celebrating their recent MARs mission.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-29357472

    Whitey isn’t the only moonable man.”

    I’d really be impressed if you could bring a decent crapper, complete with effluent handling, to the majority of your population. You see, whitey solved that problem — for the overwhelming majority — before doing that moon stuff.

  147. The more I think about this story, the stranger it seems. There are abandoned Rockwell plants all over the country. Almost everyone must be closer to Washington D.C.

    I suppose if you wanted to take your kids to Disneyland, you might pass right through Downey on the way from LAX. If you wanted to write it off your taxes, you could stop by for a story. I am picturing Mrs. Tankersley and the kids waiting in an Avis minivan in the parking lot of some old-timers bar while Jim was inside doing research.

    That might be why he never noticed the demographic transformation of the town. OTOH, maybe he just has that thing where Steven Colbert claims he is incapable of seeing color. “I literally just can’t hear Spanish!”

  148. >> You see, whitey solved that problem — for the overwhelming majority — before doing that moon stuff.

    Whitey solved that problem by flushing his s%t it in the sea, and has done more to befoul the environment and create catastrophic global warming than the Rest combined.

    Steve thinks that race replacement isn’t viable because there is something special and creative about whitey. All of us non-whiteys disagree.

    • Replies: @M_Young
    "Whitey solved that problem by flushing his s%t it in the sea, and has done more to befoul the environment and create catastrophic global warming than the Rest combined."

    And then when the problems with that manifested, we made systems that treated the pollution before it was loosed on the world.

    You, Hyderbad secularist, still haven't gotten to the point where people will sh*t in an acceptable crapper, let alone dealing with large scale effluent.
    , @William Badwhite
    "Steve thinks that race replacement isn’t viable because there is something special and creative about whitey. All of us non-whiteys disagree."

    Yet all you non-whiteys take every opportunity to move to whitey countries. And while you were mostly in oppressor classes at home, you quickly learn to whine and play the victim card when in whitey-land.

    You should go home, figure out how to dispose of your poop, and then try to improve your own country.

    Anyway, there is something special about Indians (7-11's, not casinos; or dots not feathers as the saying goes): you have to be the worst athletes on the planet. A billion people and ONE gold medal in the past 32 years (and that was in air rifle, aka "the bb gun").
  149. @Perspective
    @Clyde

    Then on the legal side immigration should become 100% skills based which nations such as Canada and Australia do. This will tilt our system to allowing in more Europeans. Millions of skilled, hi-IQ, English speaking, culturally Christian East Europeans (South Africans too!) would love to come here. We need a 5-10 year moratorium on 3rd world immigration. They have been hogging our legal immigration slots for 50 years since the 1965 immigration passed.
     
    If the US did have an immigration system similar to Canada's. (overrated IMO) I doubt the US would receive many European immigrants. European immigrants only comprise 11-13 percent of immigrants coming to Canada over the last few years. In fact, I think more Africans than Europeans came last year. Part of this is the EU free movement of people that sucks East Europeans in to western Europe since it is closer and more convenient for them. Also, many heavily immigrant areas in Canada have high rates of poverty, unemployment and under-employment. White collar immigrants and university graduates saturate the professional job market each year.

    @Handsome White Devil

    Looking at pre-Great Migration statistics, it is amazing to see how Black the entire South was, (many Southern states had Black majorities or near-majorities) and how White was the rest of the country. The 1920s immigration cut-off contributed greatly to “nationalizing” the South’s “race problem”.
     
    Canada's black population reached a low point of just 0.1 percent in 1951 and climbed to only 0.2 percent by 1970. After the immigration change in the late 60's blacks grew to just under 2 percent of the population by 1991. I bet if the south had won the civil war and separated (unlikely and disastrous result) the north east would have dropped to similar levels by the 1950s since it would be cut off from migration from the south.

    “Canada’s black population reached a low point of just 0.1 percent in 1951 and climbed to only 0.2 percent by 1970. After the immigration change in the late 60′s blacks grew to just under 2 percent of the population by 1991.”

    I visited Montreal in 1973, then again in 2000. Coming from NYC, which was rapidly circling the drain in ’73, Montreal at that time seemed so clean, quiet, and orderly. And I saw not a single non-white person. Returning in 2000, what a difference! Litter everywhere, particularly empty cigarette packs, and I was panhandled three times. Again, a mirror-image contrast with Giuliani-era New York, but in the opposite direction. But the biggest change was the large amount of Blacks. What a huge demographic change in just one generation.

    “I bet if the south had won the civil war and separated (unlikely and disastrous result) the north east would have dropped to similar levels by the 1950s since it would be cut off from migration from the south.”

    I’ve long been of the opinion that if the CSA had succeeded in winning its independence, it would today be just another average Black-majority country. Poor, violent, dysfunctional, and corrupt.

    Instead of hissing at Lincoln as the Devil incarnate, Southrons should be on their knees thanking him that they were saved from such a fate…

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Now this is one of the best posts today. Lincoln gave America full blown Protectionism (American jobs for American workers). Lincoln gave US citizens the Homestead Act which opened the West to more migration and made the west prosperous. Lincoln signed the bill to establish the first transcontinental railroad, which helped with more jobs, ultimately higher wages, etc. Lincoln helped establish teachers and agricultural colleges which helped in America's future to train a better educated workforce. The US middle class has most of its early beginnings in these policies.

    And...the US had higher productivity rates of economic growth for several decades. Thanks to these policies by Lincoln (who was implementing the American System of Henry Clay, his mentor). US jobs for US workers.

    Somehow, Jefferson Davis doesn't compare, especially since he didn't really care about America or its workers. He, like antebellum states that only produced a few crops, were free traders and thus anti-American/anti-American worker.

  150. @Jefferson
    "“You know you are in a truly affluent zip code in Southern California when a lot of your neighbors are Jewish. And Downey just does not have a lot of Jews.”

    By those standards, there are no affluent zip codes in the San Gabriel Valley, only one in Santa Barbara County, and only a couple in Orange County. And not many in San Diego."

    Jews don't have to be the majority of an affluent zip code's population, they just have to be overrepresented compared to their 2 percent share of the national population. I guarantee Jews make up more than 2 percent of Southern California's rich affluent zip codes. Steve Sailer most likely has Jewish neighbors since he lives in an affluent area of Los Angeles.

    Sailer lives in the Southeastern San Fernando Valley, which has had a large Jewish population for many decades, given the presence of the film industry there.

    Affluent areas in Los Angeles County which are within the area influenced by the entertainment industry have large Jewish populations. Affluent areas which are not within the area influenced by the entertainment industry are a different story.

  151. @Steve Sailer
    Saw the Blasters twice in 1981 or 1982, including opening for the Boomtown Rats. Saw one of the Alvin Brothers around 1985-86 in Chicago.

    Played guitar in some bands (nobody famous) in L.A. for a couple of years in the early 1980’s before going to law school back east. Spent some time hanging out with guys in graduate film school at UCLA (writing music for their movies and in general just hanging out with them) Lived in Redondo Beach and then North Hollywood. Also read scripts for a year at a small movie studio for minimum wage (read one thing that actually got made …a grade B film called Up the the Creek IIRC). I recall many great times during those years….L.A. was great.

    Sold one of my guitars to Phil Alvin, and hung out with the band when they were recording one of their albums (1983’s Non Fiction) Later ran into the band in NYC when they came to visit the east coast. Phil told me that the guitar I sold him was stolen while they were on tour. It was a Gibson double cutaway hollow body 347 and a real beauty…such a shame. Both brothers and the band were super cool and the nicest bunch of guys. Phil especially was very warm, outgoing, and friendly. Great guys.

  152. @HandsomeWhiteDevil
    "@Hare Krishna

    The 1924 Immigration Act helped black America, but hurt white America…

    Lucy, you got some ‘splainin’ to do…"

    I imagine Hare Krishna's 'splaination would be virtually identical to mine:

    The outbreak of WWI in the summer of 1914 caused an immediate sharp decrease in the number of European immigrants to the US. A war boom began in the US in 1915, thus ending the recession of 1913-14. The "Great Migration" of Southern Blacks to the North, beginning in '15, occurred as Northern manufacturers began to employ Blacks in the place of the now-unavailable European immigrants. Freed of Southern-style Jim Crow restrictions, and earning relatively high industrial wages, this caused a massive migration of rural Southern Blacks to the urban North that would last until ca. 1970. All this allowed the beginnings of a Black middle class to develop, and set the stage for the civil rights revolution that would begin in the 1930s and be complete by the '60s.

    The Black population of the US stood at 21% at the time of the American Revolution. This percentage would slowly fall over the next century and a half, partly due to higher birth rates, lower death rates, and longer life spans among Whites, but mostly due to the massive immigration of Europeans after 1830. The Black population would decline to under 10% in the 1920s, '30s, & '40s, reaching an all-time low of just 9.7% of the US population in 1930. (It was 12.6% in 2010).

    For example, Connecticut went from 2.9% Black in 1820 to 1.4% Black in 1910.

    New York went from 7.6% Black in 1790 to 1.2% Black in 1890.

    Pennsylvania went from 2.9% Black in 1820 to 1.9% Black in 1870.

    Michigan was 3.7% Black in 1800, but only 0.6% Black in 1910.

    Looking at pre-Great Migration statistics, it is amazing to see how Black the entire South was, (many Southern states had Black majorities or near-majorities) and how White was the rest of the country. The 1920s immigration cut-off contributed greatly to "nationalizing" the South's "race problem".

    Had the immigration cut-off of the '20s not happened, and European immigration continued at its pre-WWI pace, and the '65 immigration "reform" never occurred, and if "Operation Wetback" was made permanent, it is entirely probable that the White percentage of the US population would today be 95 or 96 percent of the total.

    “Had the immigration cut-off of the ’20s not happened, and European immigration continued at its pre-WWI pace, and the ’65 immigration “reform” never occurred, and if “Operation Wetback” was made permanent, it is entirely probable that the White percentage of the US population would today be 95 or 96 percent of the total.” – the only problem here is that America wouldn’t be a nation under these conditions either. assimilation took the better part of a century with the door closed, it would not have happened had said door not closed. Likewise, the economic gains the average American made throughout more than half a century of the door being closed simply would not have happened.

  153. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    “You really think this is all about immigration?

    Sure, it doesn’t help things. I’m in favor of building a giant fence and deporting illegals. But you really think the decline of the union movement…”

    Have you ever been to the old mile of water-powered mills in Lowell, Massachusetts? It may be one of the few urban National Parks (the old mill canals and mill ponds still exists, as do many of the old buildings, a few with working water wheels.

    Water-powered Lowell was the literal heart of US industrialization, the area where the industrial revolution first started in the US.

    Their are historical placards on some of those old mills that trace the waves of immigrants brought in to successively replace the labor. Along the line of when Americans became to expensive, they brought in French, when French became too expensive, they brought in Germans…. until about 10 waves later, when the Norwegians
    became too expensive they bought in Finns.

    It’s instructive. I think the same is happening today at national scale. The mega-banks on Wall Street view works as fungible goods, the cheaper the better. Modern transportation makes distance near-meaningless. Our immigration policy is being driven by the prospect of immediate profits due to ever cheaper labor.

    Ultimately the big investment banks, and their analysts, are calling the shots. A lot of the people calling the shots in the investment banks have no loyalty to US middle-class citizens, even in theory–many of them aren’t even US citizens. (Although for some of them it is probably icing on the cake that they are destroying those loser middle-class Americans who used to think they were so rich.)

    The nation has become an economy, not a nation of citizens. The government surely is on the side of the economy, not the citizens. Sure, they’ll end up as Lebanon and Syria, but that’s a hundred years off or so, so what do they care.

  154. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    “But you cannot easily discern, distinguish between the majority white middle class and the plutocrats and corporations. The liberals can do that, however. In fact, the liberals reflexively distinguish between the workers and Capital. They do that reflexively, easily.”

    Isn’t arch liberal Democrat Dianne Fienstien the richest person in the Senate? And aren’t she and her husband just about the definition of “plutocrats”?

    I’m willing to believe you about puppets. I just wonder if liberals aren’t even more clueless than the rest of us that they are just “convenient puppets” for a faction of plutocrats.

  155. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    “The layoffs of tech talent from the space standdown were a big part of the reason California and not Route 128 (the ironically named Apollo Computer and Symbolics along with DEC) became the computer capital of the world.”

    It might have helped a bit starting around the mid-90s… But Silicon Valley had won by the late 70s, with the advent of personal computers. Probably just due to all the Intel, Zilog, Shugart, and Seagate type companies. By the mid 80’s Silicon Valley had won big, when microprocessor companies began making 32-bit CPU chips (Intel, NatSemi, the Sparc stuff…).

    During the 70’s and 80’s a lot of Route 128 engineers moved to Silicon Valley. Housing prices where cheaper and all that. Now a lot of Silicon Valley engineers have left for places like Route 128, where the cost of living isn’t so high.

    • Replies: @Former Darfur
    It might have helped a bit starting around the mid-90s… But Silicon Valley had won by the late 70s, with the advent of personal computers. Probably just due to all the Intel, Zilog, Shugart, and Seagate type companies. By the mid 80′s Silicon Valley had won big, when microprocessor companies began making 32-bit CPU chips (Intel, NatSemi, the Sparc stuff…).

    Motorola (and many others) were 32 bit long before Intel, and NatSemi was never a successful CPU vendor: they're primarily an analog house. Meanwhile, DEC had the Alpha at 64 bits ten-plus years before Intel had a successful 64 bit architecture, and look what happened to them. The failure of the unquestionably technically superior short instruction set CPU to dethrone x86 Intel-Intel's own Itanic failed and all today's Intel PCs run the AMD 64 bit extension family!-was the end of the first Silicon Valley era and the beginning of the Facebook mind share era, but that wouldn't have happened had the first wave hit when it did.
  156. @Jefferson
    "Please explain this “vacuum” that must be filled.

    Then explain why Japan’s immune (and why, to the extent they aren’t, they’re filling their “vacuum” with people from the same racial group as the Japanese, and not blacks, mestizos, central Asians, Pacific Islanders, Australian aborigines, south Asians, Malaysians, Middle Easterners, or Europeans. Or rather, why they prevent their “vacuum” from being filled with the latter."

    There are 345 thousand Latin Americans living in Japan, but the vast majority of them have Japanese blood pumping through their hearts. Mostly coming from Brazil and Peru. They do not let in a lot of Latin Americans who are genetically zero percent Japanese.

    Uh, 345k…..out of a total population of 120 million.

    Somehow that 345k doesn’t sound like a significant minority of anything. And of course, Japan stopped immigrating to Brazil/Peru roughly about a century ago. Also, Japan isn’t exactly welcoming more and more from Brazil/Peru in even at that. Why would they? They really don’t need them. To get a firm grasp of how Japan feels about unlimited immigration all anyone has to do is observe how they’ve treated their ancient rival, Korea. Still not entirely sure why Japan doesn’t just kick out the Koreans and send them all packing back to Korea. They’d probably be happier in their original nation than in Japan. Especially because…..Koreans are not Japanese.

    It is not our nation and thus they have the right to control their own national destiny without outside interference. One nice advantage of Japan is that they don’t have a western style alphabet, so African and rest of South American nations that were heavily colonized by Europeans will have the devil of a time attempting to learn that type of system.

    Also, the question seldom ever asked, why exactly would a person living between 5-10k miles away suddenly wake up and tell their family “Guess what? We’re all gonna migrate, to Japan! That’s how we’ll make our fortune! Let’s do it!”

    And of course another advantage is that Japan is an island so there’s technically no land connecting “border” to sneak across, under, or over. Border partrol is thus much easier to control.

    On a larger scale, Japan in some of these regards are similar to another island nation, Iceland. The birth of modern western Parliamentary system.

    • Replies: @Twinkie

    Koreans are not Japanese.
     
    As I recall, about 40% of Japanese high nobility trace their origin to Korea.

    In the post war years, a significant number of "Japanese" sports athletes, pop stars, gangsters, etc. have been ethnic Koreans. Many have been pressured to adopt Japanese names and hide their Korean origin in return for acceptance of sorts.

    Apparently enough Japanese believe that Koreans can be assimilated into Japanese society. But then they do share considerable genetic closeness.
  157. @HandsomeWhiteDevil
    "Canada’s black population reached a low point of just 0.1 percent in 1951 and climbed to only 0.2 percent by 1970. After the immigration change in the late 60′s blacks grew to just under 2 percent of the population by 1991."

    I visited Montreal in 1973, then again in 2000. Coming from NYC, which was rapidly circling the drain in '73, Montreal at that time seemed so clean, quiet, and orderly. And I saw not a single non-white person. Returning in 2000, what a difference! Litter everywhere, particularly empty cigarette packs, and I was panhandled three times. Again, a mirror-image contrast with Giuliani-era New York, but in the opposite direction. But the biggest change was the large amount of Blacks. What a huge demographic change in just one generation.

    "I bet if the south had won the civil war and separated (unlikely and disastrous result) the north east would have dropped to similar levels by the 1950s since it would be cut off from migration from the south."

    I've long been of the opinion that if the CSA had succeeded in winning its independence, it would today be just another average Black-majority country. Poor, violent, dysfunctional, and corrupt.

    Instead of hissing at Lincoln as the Devil incarnate, Southrons should be on their knees thanking him that they were saved from such a fate...

    Now this is one of the best posts today. Lincoln gave America full blown Protectionism (American jobs for American workers). Lincoln gave US citizens the Homestead Act which opened the West to more migration and made the west prosperous. Lincoln signed the bill to establish the first transcontinental railroad, which helped with more jobs, ultimately higher wages, etc. Lincoln helped establish teachers and agricultural colleges which helped in America’s future to train a better educated workforce. The US middle class has most of its early beginnings in these policies.

    And…the US had higher productivity rates of economic growth for several decades. Thanks to these policies by Lincoln (who was implementing the American System of Henry Clay, his mentor). US jobs for US workers.

    Somehow, Jefferson Davis doesn’t compare, especially since he didn’t really care about America or its workers. He, like antebellum states that only produced a few crops, were free traders and thus anti-American/anti-American worker.

    • Replies: @HandsomeWhiteDevil
    "Now this is one of the best posts today."

    Thanks!

    "Lincoln gave America full blown Protectionism (American jobs for American workers). Lincoln gave US citizens the Homestead Act which opened the West to more migration and made the west prosperous. Lincoln signed the bill to establish the first transcontinental railroad, which helped with more jobs, ultimately higher wages, etc. Lincoln helped establish teachers and agricultural colleges which helped in America’s future to train a better educated workforce. The US middle class has most of its early beginnings in these policies.

    And…the US had higher productivity rates of economic growth for several decades. Thanks to these policies by Lincoln (who was implementing the American System of Henry Clay, his mentor). US jobs for US workers."

    The funny thing is, Northern public opinion was leaning to "Let the wayward sisters depart in peace" as Horace Greeley, I think it was, editorialized. But once the Southern fire-eaters bombarded Fort Sumter, that was no longer an option.

    The North and South had diverged into two separate civilizations by 1861. The North was forward looking, economically dynamic, culturally liberal, increasingly urban, and individualistic. The South tried to live up to the rural-based agrarian, romantic ideals of the past, fond of hierarchy and social distinction, and afraid of revolutionary change. Having disproportionate influence over the federal government, Southerners appeared to be holding back the inevitable floodtide of progress. Something had to give.

    "Somehow, Jefferson Davis doesn’t compare, especially since he didn’t really care about America or its workers. He, like antebellum states that only produced a few crops, were free traders and thus anti-American/anti-American worker."

    Southerners, at least the elites, were willing to drown themselves in an ocean of unassimilable aliens, if it would increase their wealth and political power.

    Rather like our overclass today...
  158. @Jefferson
    Twinkie you once said that racial demographics wise your ideal America would be 10 percent Asian with the remaining 90 percent being made up of mostly Whites. So your ideal America would still be predominantly White, but instead of Blacks or Mexicans being the largest Nonwhite minority group, it would be Asians who are the largest Nonwhite minority group.

    Twinkie you once said that racial demographics wise your ideal America would be 10 percent Asian with the remaining 90 percent being made up of mostly Whites. So your ideal America would still be predominantly White, but instead of Blacks or Mexicans being the largest Nonwhite minority group, it would be Asians who are the largest Nonwhite minority group.

    I don’t think that’s quite what I wrote.

    My ideal America is one in which the vast majority of Americans are descendants of the historically American people, which is to say, those of Northwestern European origin. I think East Asians can be assimilated well into that majority… up to a point, probably no more than 5-15%. Beyond that point forces of counter-assimilation begin to gain strength, which is not healthy for social cohesion. Blacks and Hispanics can be assimilated harmoniously too, but probably a substantially smaller percentage, less than 5% combined.

    I live most of the time in an area that is roughly 65% white, 25% Asian, and 5% black/Hispanic. It is a very affluent and highly educated area. What few crimes exist are almost entirely committed by the last group. But the area is definitely too diverse and even too Asian for my particular taste. I liked it better when the area was 80% white and 10% Asian. It was more, for lack of a better term, small town-like but still had some interesting dining and shopping options.

    I subscribe to Derbyshire’s notion of diversity/immigrants being akin to salt in a soup. A little bit makes the soup tasty and more interesting, but too much overwhelms and ruins the soup.

  159. “Steve thinks that race replacement isn’t viable because there is something special and creative about whitey. All of us non-whiteys disagree.”

    Glad to see you’re being honest about how you feel about us, we do hear a lot of lies.

  160. @Former Darfur
    Yes, I have. I remember being in Brazil in the seventies. All the cars were domestically made, overpriced and crappy, and tractors were so expensive villages could not afford them: they could have afforded old 8N Fords or small Farmalls but they could not import them. My dad complained and Brazilians just looked at him as if he were dumb. But I have come to the realization that Brazilians would have been even worse off without the tractor and car plants they did have, and if imports were allowed they would never have had them.

    Yes, I have. I remember being in Brazil in the seventies. All the cars were domestically made, overpriced and crappy, and tractors were so expensive villages could not afford them: they could have afforded old 8N Fords or small Farmalls but they could not import them.

    That’s rather uncanny as I thought of Brazil when I made that point.

    But I have come to the realization that Brazilians would have been even worse off without the tractor and car plants they did have, and if imports were allowed they would never have had them.

    Do you really think that the median Brazilian quality of life was better back then?

  161. @James Kabala
    People should probably be aware of these surprising statistics:

    http://www.academia.edu/179045/_Public_Opinion_Polls_and_Perceptions_of_US_Human_Spaceflight_

    More popularized accounts:

    http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2012/09/moondoggle-the-forgotten-opposition-to-the-apollo-program/262254/

    http://www.cracked.com/article_19676_5-ridiculous-cold-war-myths-you-learned-in-history-class.html (#4)

    http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/ten-enduring-myths-about-the-us-space-program-1969206/?no-ist= (#1)

    Probably some of this came from leftists, but probably also some from Taft Republicans who just didn't like to spend money. I suspect it is no coincidence that Mondale and Proxmire came from the Upper Midwest, where these two traditions overlapped. (I wonder how National Review felt at the time. I say 50/50 chance they were apathetic/negative.)

    NR was then as now pretty gung ho on national defense spending because Buckley was a Cold War Hawk. Anything to beat the Soviets to the moon and show them who was the better of the two nations.

    Of course, since Steve was a regular reader of NR back around that time, perhaps he could recall NR’s official stance on NASA spending in general.

  162. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    This is partly a lie. US has had strong forms of protectionism since the time of Henry Clay's "American System" of the late 1820s early 1830s. The South was pro-free trade for obvious reasons but the industrialized Northern states pushed hard for it with each passing decade and won out by the mid 1850s.

    Also, modern South Korea, Germany and Japan still maintain protectionism policies and they're doing quite well, all things considered. China, poised to become the worlds largest economy by end of this decade also has an economy that is largely protectionism based.

    Oops.

    You also are basically saying that runaway rates of immigration are no long term problem. That too is very dishonest. It IS part of the problem and also the catalyst as well. It IS a major growing problem with each passing decade.

    Open Borders and Free Trade policies usually go hand in hand. Long term effects on a nations economy results in disaster all around.

    But the larger point is that the US has followed protectionist policies for well over 150years. It increased dramatically with the Lincoln administration, on the belief that American jobs were dependent on keeping America's industries protected from foreign economic influences (extreme form of open markets at the expense of native worker's jobs).

    Look at Britain. During the mid 19th century they relaxed import tariffs on foodstuffs and by WW1 faced a couple of food shortages. A nation that no longer predominantly produces its own food to feed its population and must rely upon free trade to feed itself is clearly, clearly headed in the wrong direction.

    This is partly a lie. US has had strong forms of protectionism since the time of Henry Clay’s “American System” of the late 1820s early 1830s. The South was pro-free trade for obvious reasons but the industrialized Northern states pushed hard for it with each passing decade and won out by the mid 1850s.

    You might wish to invest some time in improving reading comprehension rather than shouting “lies” at ideas with which you disagree.

    I did not suggest that the U.S. was a haven of free trade in the past. I merely pointed out a historically obvious fact that much of the high wages for the American worker derived from the land/resource per capita dynamic of its early history and the particular global circumstances of the post-war years, conditions that no longer obtain.

    Also, modern South Korea, Germany and Japan still maintain protectionism policies and they’re doing quite well, all things considered. China, poised to become the worlds largest economy by end of this decade also has an economy that is largely protectionism based.

    Except the dramatic rise of their standards of living in the post-war years has coincided with reductions in their tariffs and lowering other trade barriers. To be sure, all three have considerably higher non-tariff barriers (NTBs) than the U.S. has. But then again, they also have lower standards of living as well.

    Oops.

    You also are basically saying that runaway rates of immigration are no long term problem.

    Oops. No. Movement of goods and movement of people are not necessarily, or should be, the same. In fact, the whole idea of comparative advantages disappears if people can move freely.

    A nation that no longer predominantly produces its own food to feed its population and must rely upon free trade to feed itself is clearly, clearly headed in the wrong direction.

    As Japan and South Korea became richer, it has become dramatically less agrarian and, in the last twenty years or so, less industrial as well. Certainly they are not autarkic.

    I am strongly against mass immigration, illegal or otherwise, and I also agree that the risk-reward system in the United States has become destructively distorted of late, but it’s foolish to think that unionism and protectionism will solve those problems. Why do you think unions today welcome immigrants?

    The genie of information technology (winner takes all in the cognitive-economic competition) and the vast network of global communication and transportation has been unleashed, and we will not be able to put it back into the bottle without incurring extreme dislocation and conflict. Perhaps some losers of that cognitive-economic competition welcome such an onslaught, but it will be extremely traumatic for most Americans.

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Uh, Korea, Japan, and China are among the world's leading industrialized nations. Japan and Korea would certainly be among the world's top five/ten standards of living. Japan's standard of living easily matches the UK and Germany while Korea is not far behind.

    Japan is less agrarian but it does still protect its farmers. One issue of the most recent election was that the farmers wanted to maintain their protective tariffs on foodstuffs. Japan, China, and Korea still have tariffs and certainly higher than the US.

    Perhaps you should take up your support of free trade with economist Paul Craig Roberts and why it leads to strong economic growth. In theory this may be the case but in practice it only helps to eliminate middle class jobs in the long term.


    "Except the dramatic rise of their standards of living in the post-war years has coincided with reductions in their tariffs and lowering other trade barriers."


    Now that's not quite accurate. The US heavily invested in Japan's infrastructure (helped out in writing of its new Constitution for instance) as well as footing the bill for national defense. We helped build them back up while they kept most of their tariffs and trade barriers. They still have both in some areas, certainly more than us. Japan isn't particularly known as a free trade haven the way the US is. Japan was on the rise beginning with the Meiji Restoration of 1868, when they decided to westernize at full speed. By about 1920 they were in a much stronger economic position and were on their way to becoming a first world nation by about 1930.

    China still has protective tariffs. Also, you left out a major part regarding Japan's rapid rise of economic growth of that period. They spent little on their national defense since the US was footing the bill, so to speak, for several decades. They still have their protective tariffs especially on foodstuffs and other local goods.



    "To be sure, all three have considerably higher non-tariff barriers (NTBs) than the U.S. has. But then again, they also have lower standards of living as well. "

    Japan's standard of living is about on par with the US. By all leading economic indicators, Japan is a first world nation. It certainly is on par with Germany and the UK, both of which are of course first world economies. China is poised to become the world's largest economy by end of decade so it is clearly on its way to becoming a first world economic nation. South Korea is also a first world economy.

    The lie branding comes from a John Wayne film, The Quiet Man. Upon returning home to Inisfree from the US he hears the town antagonist stating something that just isn't the case. Rather than shout and berate him for spouting such foolishness, Wayne firmly but quietly states the truth by calling what was said a lie.
  163. @HandsomeWhiteDevil
    "@Hare Krishna

    The 1924 Immigration Act helped black America, but hurt white America…

    Lucy, you got some ‘splainin’ to do…"

    I imagine Hare Krishna's 'splaination would be virtually identical to mine:

    The outbreak of WWI in the summer of 1914 caused an immediate sharp decrease in the number of European immigrants to the US. A war boom began in the US in 1915, thus ending the recession of 1913-14. The "Great Migration" of Southern Blacks to the North, beginning in '15, occurred as Northern manufacturers began to employ Blacks in the place of the now-unavailable European immigrants. Freed of Southern-style Jim Crow restrictions, and earning relatively high industrial wages, this caused a massive migration of rural Southern Blacks to the urban North that would last until ca. 1970. All this allowed the beginnings of a Black middle class to develop, and set the stage for the civil rights revolution that would begin in the 1930s and be complete by the '60s.

    The Black population of the US stood at 21% at the time of the American Revolution. This percentage would slowly fall over the next century and a half, partly due to higher birth rates, lower death rates, and longer life spans among Whites, but mostly due to the massive immigration of Europeans after 1830. The Black population would decline to under 10% in the 1920s, '30s, & '40s, reaching an all-time low of just 9.7% of the US population in 1930. (It was 12.6% in 2010).

    For example, Connecticut went from 2.9% Black in 1820 to 1.4% Black in 1910.

    New York went from 7.6% Black in 1790 to 1.2% Black in 1890.

    Pennsylvania went from 2.9% Black in 1820 to 1.9% Black in 1870.

    Michigan was 3.7% Black in 1800, but only 0.6% Black in 1910.

    Looking at pre-Great Migration statistics, it is amazing to see how Black the entire South was, (many Southern states had Black majorities or near-majorities) and how White was the rest of the country. The 1920s immigration cut-off contributed greatly to "nationalizing" the South's "race problem".

    Had the immigration cut-off of the '20s not happened, and European immigration continued at its pre-WWI pace, and the '65 immigration "reform" never occurred, and if "Operation Wetback" was made permanent, it is entirely probable that the White percentage of the US population would today be 95 or 96 percent of the total.

    Had the immigration cut-off of the ’20s not happened… it is entirely probable that the White percentage of the US population would today be 95 or 96 percent of the total.

    Yeah, but how American would that “White” population be? We had serious assimilation problems with heavy European immigration a century ago.

    Or do you write off the restrictionists of the day as paranoid?

    • Replies: @Hare Krishna
    The restrictionists were overtly paranoid, and wrong.
  164. @Anonymous
    Verocitor:

    We could talk about this stuff for hours. How well I remember that time! Imagine if the US had claimed the Moon, then spent the Vietnam War budget on colonizing it! We never got any benefit from that war, and as was predicted at the time,
     
    You remember wrong. We got plenty of benefit from that war, as we stopped communism from spreading further. South Vietnam served as a proverbial Roach Motel for communists from the east. If we had packed up and left in the early sixties, the communists we refrained from killing would have spread out significantly.
    We killed an estimated 2,7000,000 of committed communists, compared to their killing around 50,000 of our troops. That's an historically excellent ratio for us. Interviews with former Viet Cong members revealed that they all literally shit their pants every time they heard a B-52 overhead. Our carpet bombing was far more effective than the North Vietnamese let on at the time.
    The Vietnam "war" was a war of attrition, and the numbers tell us, and the North Vietnamese tell us, we won. Traditionally, the "loser" of a major "war" pays reparations. We never paid war reparations, now did we?
    The Vietnam war stopped the rapid spread of Communism in Southeast Asia. If left alone then, it would have become a much larger, and obstinate issue in the future.
    Instead, we now enjoy the courtesy of the Socialist Republic of Vietnam. So stop with the old timey hippy narrative of the Vietnam "war." It's laughable now.

    I’ll take the bait only because there are young people here who might not realize how bogus your screed is; they deserve something better.

    According to the Pentagon Papers the US gov’t launched the Vietnam war to “contain” Chinese expansionism. (Of course, Lyndon Johnson’s famously oversized ego, prompted by the professional enthusiasm of generals and defense contractors’ greed, also had a lot to do with US actions. Once we were “in” none of our politicians wanted to get “out,” either for fear of being called a pansy by an electoral opponent or fear of losing all those military-contractor bribes and kickbacks, a trap which clamped our leg again after the Lesser Bush invaded Afghanistan and Iraq.)

    The problem was that “Chinese expansionism” was a chimera. To be sure, the Chinese supported Communist insurgencies or regimes in bordering states like Vietnam, often by forwarding aid from the USSR. But after Korea none were very important. Either they were nuisances or they were nationalists who would not welcome Chinese overlords. In fact, Vietnam sharply repelled a Chinese invasion in 1979 (with continued sporadic fighting for a decade).

    During the war the US and its allies killed perhaps a few hundred thousand Communist troops in Indochina, many of whom were draftees. The overall death toll from circa 1965 to 1975 is widely disputed, but no matter whose estimates you take the only way to get up to 2.7 million is to count in anti-communist and civilian deaths. Only a small fraction of casualties were ideological Communists.

    Westmoreland’s idiotic “attrition” strategy demonstrated that the US, far larger, richer, and more populous than Vietnam, could occupy South Vietnam indefinitely, but only by spending money and lives continously. When the US finally tired of the mess and pulled out, the Communists accomplished all of their war aims. Indeed, it is likely that the US could have spared hundreds of thousands of lives simply by leaving Vietnam alone, since the long-run outcome would not have differed.

    As for bombing, to this day I feel patriotically proud when I contemplate all the Linebacker and Ranch Hand raids, the Arclight strikes, tacair bombardments, even the AC-130 sorties. Gosh, we really showed the world what we could do! We dropped more than 6.7 million tons of bombs on Indochina, more than four times as many bombs as we dropped in the ETO during WWII, and more accurately, too. It is impossible to review the USAF reports and RAND analyses and PNI or even National Geographic articles with color photos from Vietnam without preening over our military and industrial prowess. I just wish it had gained us something!

    No doubt those pesky VC and NVA disliked being bombed. Probably almost as much as the civilians we killed or deprived of their farms disliked it. However, we were never willing to bomb the highest-value targets in the North, and even if we had that wouldn’t have won the war.

    • Replies: @Twinkie

    During the war the US and its allies killed perhaps a few hundred thousand Communist troops in Indochina, many of whom were draftees.
     
    The only way to beat "The Black Knight" (from Monty Python and the Holy Grail: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhRUe-gz690) is to kill him.

    Black knights tend to outlast and beat bigger, stronger attackers who fear losing limbs.

    Giap made it quite clear, repeatedly, that he was willing to lose millions of his compatriots to kill comparatively fewer Americans who would then go home.

  165. @Veracitor
    I'll take the bait only because there are young people here who might not realize how bogus your screed is; they deserve something better.

    According to the Pentagon Papers the US gov't launched the Vietnam war to "contain" Chinese expansionism. (Of course, Lyndon Johnson's famously oversized ego, prompted by the professional enthusiasm of generals and defense contractors' greed, also had a lot to do with US actions. Once we were "in" none of our politicians wanted to get "out," either for fear of being called a pansy by an electoral opponent or fear of losing all those military-contractor bribes and kickbacks, a trap which clamped our leg again after the Lesser Bush invaded Afghanistan and Iraq.)

    The problem was that "Chinese expansionism" was a chimera. To be sure, the Chinese supported Communist insurgencies or regimes in bordering states like Vietnam, often by forwarding aid from the USSR. But after Korea none were very important. Either they were nuisances or they were nationalists who would not welcome Chinese overlords. In fact, Vietnam sharply repelled a Chinese invasion in 1979 (with continued sporadic fighting for a decade).

    During the war the US and its allies killed perhaps a few hundred thousand Communist troops in Indochina, many of whom were draftees. The overall death toll from circa 1965 to 1975 is widely disputed, but no matter whose estimates you take the only way to get up to 2.7 million is to count in anti-communist and civilian deaths. Only a small fraction of casualties were ideological Communists.

    Westmoreland's idiotic "attrition" strategy demonstrated that the US, far larger, richer, and more populous than Vietnam, could occupy South Vietnam indefinitely, but only by spending money and lives continously. When the US finally tired of the mess and pulled out, the Communists accomplished all of their war aims. Indeed, it is likely that the US could have spared hundreds of thousands of lives simply by leaving Vietnam alone, since the long-run outcome would not have differed.

    As for bombing, to this day I feel patriotically proud when I contemplate all the Linebacker and Ranch Hand raids, the Arclight strikes, tacair bombardments, even the AC-130 sorties. Gosh, we really showed the world what we could do! We dropped more than 6.7 million tons of bombs on Indochina, more than four times as many bombs as we dropped in the ETO during WWII, and more accurately, too. It is impossible to review the USAF reports and RAND analyses and PNI or even National Geographic articles with color photos from Vietnam without preening over our military and industrial prowess. I just wish it had gained us something!

    No doubt those pesky VC and NVA disliked being bombed. Probably almost as much as the civilians we killed or deprived of their farms disliked it. However, we were never willing to bomb the highest-value targets in the North, and even if we had that wouldn't have won the war.

    During the war the US and its allies killed perhaps a few hundred thousand Communist troops in Indochina, many of whom were draftees.

    The only way to beat “The Black Knight” (from Monty Python and the Holy Grail: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhRUe-gz690) is to kill him.

    Black knights tend to outlast and beat bigger, stronger attackers who fear losing limbs.

    Giap made it quite clear, repeatedly, that he was willing to lose millions of his compatriots to kill comparatively fewer Americans who would then go home.

  166. @OsRazor
    Sorry for not being clear. I thought I set a pretty clear demarcation pre-1965 and post-1965. Pre-1965 Unions were quite different creature compared to the public sector horror shows today. I've looked at a lot of securities filings from Midwestern manufacturing companies during the 40s-60s (documents publicly traded companies file with the SEC): what has struck me is 1) Executive pay was maybe 10-40 (really high) times of the average wage of employees, 2) Executives lived in the same communities as their employees (in nicer houses and nicer sections of the town, but still there)--they were not segregated away in gated exurbs an hour or more away and their children (when you dig further) were being educated in the same schools as their workers, 3) they operated with a fraction of the debt companies have on their books now. It's no good saying protectionism or government regulations created this economic and social scenario--the regulations back then were nothing compared to regulations now. Something else acted as a check--1) the executives themselves were of a different character--few Ivy League types, mostly public colleges, etc--and must have felt some sense of noblesse oblige, and 2) more important and more concrete fear of Union reaction clamped down on their worst instincts.

    As I said, what Unions have been transformed into is a tragedy of the first order--the so-called union today is unrecognizable to any worker of the the post-WWII era.

    Was the whole artifice based on ridiculous, unrealistic economic realities--US post-war domination without any international competition? Sure, but countries that have retained a strong workers' political force (through trade unions, etc.--I'm thinking of Germany specifically) are doing okay economically--haven't collapsed off the globe.

    Pre-1965 Unions were quite different creature compared to the public sector horror shows today

    These “pre-1965 Unions” either supported the ’60s revolution (the one in Congress, not the one in the street), or did a piss-poor job of opposing it, while they still had the Democratic Party in their grip. They sold out the rank-and-file (they never gave a sweet damn about the non-union working class) back when the very legitimacy of public-sector unions was still controversial.

    countries that have retained a strong workers’ political force (through trade unions, etc.–I’m thinking of Germany specifically)

    I don’t know the specifics of German law, but if it’s anything like in Sweden, employers as well as workers can unite to negotiate. Compare that to the old UAW tactic of playing the Big Three off one another.

    (By the way, how does the corporate tax in those places compare to our “capitalistic” version?)

  167. @Ezra
    I'm pretty sure Hal Blaine played drums for The Carpenters on the records, but he subbed in for pretty much every drummer in Southern California from 1962 to 1978.

    I’m pretty sure Hal Blaine played drums for The Carpenters on the records…

    When he was hired to do so, he checked out Karen’s skills and said he was impressed. So, why didn’t he do the chivalrous thing and tell the client to keep her? He sure wasn’t hard up for work– that’s not what the fine print on my ’70s LP collection tells me.

    I nominate Karen as the best singing drummer ever, hands down.

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Hold it, hold it. Now come on now!

    Karen Carpenter, then as today, is primarily known for one main thing. Her SINGING. At twenty yrs old, her voice was more mature and had a depth of range in lyrical interpretation that rivaled Sinatra.

    Her ability to sing was nearly unmatched in pop music of the era. She dominated.

    Focusing on her drumming is tantamount to saying that HOF P Walter Johnson had an amazing curve. Uh, no, he was the premier fastballer of the first half of the 20th century.

    Place the emphasis where it belongs.

    Karen = one great singer.
  168. AnAnon-
    “the only problem here is that America wouldn’t be a nation under these conditions either. assimilation took the better part of a century with the door closed, it would not have happened had said door not closed.”

    Reg Cæsar-
    “Yeah, but how American would that “White” population be? We had serious assimilation problems with heavy European immigration a century ago.

    Or do you write off the restrictionists of the day as paranoid?”

    I was pointing out one possible option, out of many other possibilities. My own belief is that the US should have slammed the immigration door shut after the Revolution, and not opened it, cautiously, until a century later, at least. This would have given the institutions, and the culture, of the US time to solidify, so that any future immigration would be less likely to cause irreparable harm to the fabric of the society.

    From the Irish, who helped create the first urban slums around the time of the War of 1812, and who were major contributors to the system of urban corruption that lasted well into the 20th Century, to the Germans, who brought over Marxist ideas of economics and politics after the failed revolutions of 1848, to the swarming masses of Eastern & Southern European peasantry, having little experience with modern industrial civilization, it is clear that the great 19th Century waves of immigration did irrevocably change the US. Perhaps these changes would have happened anyway, or perhaps they would have taken other directions, one cannot say. But they did populate the continent, and helped the US become the largest economy in the world by the 1870s.

    In the end , the US did more or less successfully assimilate White Europeans. It did take much effort, over many years, and while the immigrants may not have always wanted to assimilate, the larger society demanded it. In the Progressive era, especially, one is struck by the incessant effort to propagandize immigrants, or should I say proselytize, so intense was the fervor, in American ways.

    In any case, millions of European immigrants were far more easily assimilated than the millions of Third Worlders we have taken on since ’65.

  169. @Reg Cæsar

    Had the immigration cut-off of the ’20s not happened… it is entirely probable that the White percentage of the US population would today be 95 or 96 percent of the total.
     
    Yeah, but how American would that "White" population be? We had serious assimilation problems with heavy European immigration a century ago.

    Or do you write off the restrictionists of the day as paranoid?

    The restrictionists were overtly paranoid, and wrong.

  170. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Now this is one of the best posts today. Lincoln gave America full blown Protectionism (American jobs for American workers). Lincoln gave US citizens the Homestead Act which opened the West to more migration and made the west prosperous. Lincoln signed the bill to establish the first transcontinental railroad, which helped with more jobs, ultimately higher wages, etc. Lincoln helped establish teachers and agricultural colleges which helped in America's future to train a better educated workforce. The US middle class has most of its early beginnings in these policies.

    And...the US had higher productivity rates of economic growth for several decades. Thanks to these policies by Lincoln (who was implementing the American System of Henry Clay, his mentor). US jobs for US workers.

    Somehow, Jefferson Davis doesn't compare, especially since he didn't really care about America or its workers. He, like antebellum states that only produced a few crops, were free traders and thus anti-American/anti-American worker.

    “Now this is one of the best posts today.”

    Thanks!

    “Lincoln gave America full blown Protectionism (American jobs for American workers). Lincoln gave US citizens the Homestead Act which opened the West to more migration and made the west prosperous. Lincoln signed the bill to establish the first transcontinental railroad, which helped with more jobs, ultimately higher wages, etc. Lincoln helped establish teachers and agricultural colleges which helped in America’s future to train a better educated workforce. The US middle class has most of its early beginnings in these policies.

    And…the US had higher productivity rates of economic growth for several decades. Thanks to these policies by Lincoln (who was implementing the American System of Henry Clay, his mentor). US jobs for US workers.”

    The funny thing is, Northern public opinion was leaning to “Let the wayward sisters depart in peace” as Horace Greeley, I think it was, editorialized. But once the Southern fire-eaters bombarded Fort Sumter, that was no longer an option.

    The North and South had diverged into two separate civilizations by 1861. The North was forward looking, economically dynamic, culturally liberal, increasingly urban, and individualistic. The South tried to live up to the rural-based agrarian, romantic ideals of the past, fond of hierarchy and social distinction, and afraid of revolutionary change. Having disproportionate influence over the federal government, Southerners appeared to be holding back the inevitable floodtide of progress. Something had to give.

    “Somehow, Jefferson Davis doesn’t compare, especially since he didn’t really care about America or its workers. He, like antebellum states that only produced a few crops, were free traders and thus anti-American/anti-American worker.”

    Southerners, at least the elites, were willing to drown themselves in an ocean of unassimilable aliens, if it would increase their wealth and political power.

    Rather like our overclass today…

  171. As I commented before: the country that put Armstrong et al on the moon simply does not exist anymore.

    • Replies: @Twinkie

    As I commented before: the country that put Armstrong et al on the moon simply does not exist anymore.
     
    But then the country that the Founding Fathers established did not exist by the time of Armstrong on the moon either.
  172. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Uh, 345k.....out of a total population of 120 million.

    Somehow that 345k doesn't sound like a significant minority of anything. And of course, Japan stopped immigrating to Brazil/Peru roughly about a century ago. Also, Japan isn't exactly welcoming more and more from Brazil/Peru in even at that. Why would they? They really don't need them. To get a firm grasp of how Japan feels about unlimited immigration all anyone has to do is observe how they've treated their ancient rival, Korea. Still not entirely sure why Japan doesn't just kick out the Koreans and send them all packing back to Korea. They'd probably be happier in their original nation than in Japan. Especially because.....Koreans are not Japanese.

    It is not our nation and thus they have the right to control their own national destiny without outside interference. One nice advantage of Japan is that they don't have a western style alphabet, so African and rest of South American nations that were heavily colonized by Europeans will have the devil of a time attempting to learn that type of system.

    Also, the question seldom ever asked, why exactly would a person living between 5-10k miles away suddenly wake up and tell their family "Guess what? We're all gonna migrate, to Japan! That's how we'll make our fortune! Let's do it!"

    And of course another advantage is that Japan is an island so there's technically no land connecting "border" to sneak across, under, or over. Border partrol is thus much easier to control.

    On a larger scale, Japan in some of these regards are similar to another island nation, Iceland. The birth of modern western Parliamentary system.

    Koreans are not Japanese.

    As I recall, about 40% of Japanese high nobility trace their origin to Korea.

    In the post war years, a significant number of “Japanese” sports athletes, pop stars, gangsters, etc. have been ethnic Koreans. Many have been pressured to adopt Japanese names and hide their Korean origin in return for acceptance of sorts.

    Apparently enough Japanese believe that Koreans can be assimilated into Japanese society. But then they do share considerable genetic closeness.

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    That's been debated over the decades as to the exact percentage of high nobility. Anywhere from 40% to 10%.

    Shintaro Katsu, one of the biggest Alist entertainers, was ethnically 100% Japanese. So were film directors Kurosawa, Mizuguchi, Ozu, Kobayashi, Ichikawa, Inagaki, etc. Point being that Japan's film industry owed nothing to other East Asian nations; it was the most advanced film industry in all of Asia at that time.

    Besides, as with gangsters, athletes, and entertainers, the nobility is not a significant representation of the people. Again. Japan is a nation of about 120 million. At best, About 1-2 million are of Korean descent. I tend to to think that 1-2 million is not a significant minority of about 120 million and I trust that you do the same. That is, I assume that you understand that 1-2 million (if it is even that high) is not a significant minority of 120 million people.

    If they were consistent, the Japanese should send these Korean immigrants packing back to Soeul.

  173. @eah
    As I commented before: the country that put Armstrong et al on the moon simply does not exist anymore.

    As I commented before: the country that put Armstrong et al on the moon simply does not exist anymore.

    But then the country that the Founding Fathers established did not exist by the time of Armstrong on the moon either.

  174. @Hyderabad Secularist
    >> You see, whitey solved that problem — for the overwhelming majority — before doing that moon stuff.

    Whitey solved that problem by flushing his s%t it in the sea, and has done more to befoul the environment and create catastrophic global warming than the Rest combined.

    Steve thinks that race replacement isn't viable because there is something special and creative about whitey. All of us non-whiteys disagree.

    “Whitey solved that problem by flushing his s%t it in the sea, and has done more to befoul the environment and create catastrophic global warming than the Rest combined.”

    And then when the problems with that manifested, we made systems that treated the pollution before it was loosed on the world.

    You, Hyderbad secularist, still haven’t gotten to the point where people will sh*t in an acceptable crapper, let alone dealing with large scale effluent.

  175. “leftist conservative says:

    “”Svigor wrote:

    Leftist Conservative, you’ve now in my “automatically scroll past” category. Just thought you might want to know.””

    That ol’ cognitive dissonance, she do sting a mite, don’t she?”

    Stroke your own ego if you want, idiot. The fact is we are just tired of you logarrheic nitwittery.

  176. @Twinkie

    This is partly a lie. US has had strong forms of protectionism since the time of Henry Clay’s “American System” of the late 1820s early 1830s. The South was pro-free trade for obvious reasons but the industrialized Northern states pushed hard for it with each passing decade and won out by the mid 1850s.
     
    You might wish to invest some time in improving reading comprehension rather than shouting "lies" at ideas with which you disagree.

    I did not suggest that the U.S. was a haven of free trade in the past. I merely pointed out a historically obvious fact that much of the high wages for the American worker derived from the land/resource per capita dynamic of its early history and the particular global circumstances of the post-war years, conditions that no longer obtain.


    Also, modern South Korea, Germany and Japan still maintain protectionism policies and they’re doing quite well, all things considered. China, poised to become the worlds largest economy by end of this decade also has an economy that is largely protectionism based.
     
    Except the dramatic rise of their standards of living in the post-war years has coincided with reductions in their tariffs and lowering other trade barriers. To be sure, all three have considerably higher non-tariff barriers (NTBs) than the U.S. has. But then again, they also have lower standards of living as well.

    Oops.

    You also are basically saying that runaway rates of immigration are no long term problem.
     

    Oops. No. Movement of goods and movement of people are not necessarily, or should be, the same. In fact, the whole idea of comparative advantages disappears if people can move freely.

    A nation that no longer predominantly produces its own food to feed its population and must rely upon free trade to feed itself is clearly, clearly headed in the wrong direction.
     
    As Japan and South Korea became richer, it has become dramatically less agrarian and, in the last twenty years or so, less industrial as well. Certainly they are not autarkic.

    I am strongly against mass immigration, illegal or otherwise, and I also agree that the risk-reward system in the United States has become destructively distorted of late, but it's foolish to think that unionism and protectionism will solve those problems. Why do you think unions today welcome immigrants?

    The genie of information technology (winner takes all in the cognitive-economic competition) and the vast network of global communication and transportation has been unleashed, and we will not be able to put it back into the bottle without incurring extreme dislocation and conflict. Perhaps some losers of that cognitive-economic competition welcome such an onslaught, but it will be extremely traumatic for most Americans.

    Uh, Korea, Japan, and China are among the world’s leading industrialized nations. Japan and Korea would certainly be among the world’s top five/ten standards of living. Japan’s standard of living easily matches the UK and Germany while Korea is not far behind.

    Japan is less agrarian but it does still protect its farmers. One issue of the most recent election was that the farmers wanted to maintain their protective tariffs on foodstuffs. Japan, China, and Korea still have tariffs and certainly higher than the US.

    Perhaps you should take up your support of free trade with economist Paul Craig Roberts and why it leads to strong economic growth. In theory this may be the case but in practice it only helps to eliminate middle class jobs in the long term.

    “Except the dramatic rise of their standards of living in the post-war years has coincided with reductions in their tariffs and lowering other trade barriers.”

    Now that’s not quite accurate. The US heavily invested in Japan’s infrastructure (helped out in writing of its new Constitution for instance) as well as footing the bill for national defense. We helped build them back up while they kept most of their tariffs and trade barriers. They still have both in some areas, certainly more than us. Japan isn’t particularly known as a free trade haven the way the US is. Japan was on the rise beginning with the Meiji Restoration of 1868, when they decided to westernize at full speed. By about 1920 they were in a much stronger economic position and were on their way to becoming a first world nation by about 1930.

    China still has protective tariffs. Also, you left out a major part regarding Japan’s rapid rise of economic growth of that period. They spent little on their national defense since the US was footing the bill, so to speak, for several decades. They still have their protective tariffs especially on foodstuffs and other local goods.

    “To be sure, all three have considerably higher non-tariff barriers (NTBs) than the U.S. has. But then again, they also have lower standards of living as well. ”

    Japan’s standard of living is about on par with the US. By all leading economic indicators, Japan is a first world nation. It certainly is on par with Germany and the UK, both of which are of course first world economies. China is poised to become the world’s largest economy by end of decade so it is clearly on its way to becoming a first world economic nation. South Korea is also a first world economy.

    The lie branding comes from a John Wayne film, The Quiet Man. Upon returning home to Inisfree from the US he hears the town antagonist stating something that just isn’t the case. Rather than shout and berate him for spouting such foolishness, Wayne firmly but quietly states the truth by calling what was said a lie.

    • Replies: @Twinkie

    Uh, Korea, Japan, and China are among the world’s leading industrialized nations. Japan and Korea would certainly be among the world’s top five/ten standards of living. Japan’s standard of living easily matches the UK and Germany while Korea is not far behind.
     
    Yes. But it still does not change the fact that the median standards of living in those countries are lower than that in the United States.

    See: http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2014/08/why-britain-is-poorer-than-any-us-state-other-than-mississippi/

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2013/06/01/astonishing-numbers-americas-poor-still-live-better-than-most-of-the-rest-of-humanity/

    I lived and worked in both Japan and Korea. And they are both wonderfully modern countries with polite, law-abiding populations. There is much to recommend to both countries. But though getting closer, their standards of living are measurably lower than that of the United States. This becomes particularly glaring when you delve into their rural areas (meanwhile some of their urban metropolises are more advanced than their American counterparts in other ways, e.g. high speed internet).


    One issue of the most recent election was that the farmers wanted to maintain their protective tariffs on foodstuffs. Japan, China, and Korea still have tariffs and certainly higher than the US.
     
    Japanese rice farmers account for a very small (and declining/aging) portion of the population, but exert an enormous political power due to their relationship with the long-dominant Liberal Democratic party that ruled Japan for much of its history. I have had numerous conversations with Japanese economists and government officials who privately acknowledge that the protection of the Japanese rice farmers from external competition has hurt Japanese consumers and Japanese exporters enormously. They will ALL tell you in private that the relationship is entirely political in nature and benefits only a tiny fraction of the population.

    While historically East Asian countries have had higher tariffs, that has changed greatly in the last thirty years and continue to change. Why? Because there are now significant hurdles to enacting tariffs - they bring swift retaliation under international trading rules. And that goes for "unfair pricing" as well (see a recent spat: http://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-plans-tariffs-on-korean-steel-pipe-due-to-alleged-unfair-pricing-1405111640).

    Instead, countries like Japan have relied more on non-tariff barriers to be more protectionist (e.g. agricultural goods rotting during a lengthy "inspection" period, idiosyncratic distribution systems and requirements that subtly favor the local companies, etc.). But even those are becoming very difficult to enact and maintain because of greatly increased transnational transparency and knowledge.

    You seem to suffer from basic reading comprehension skills. The correlations I pointed out earlier of the increasing East Asian living standards and falling tariffs need not indicate causation, but is merely an evidence for the falsification of the idea that protectionism protects or improves middle class living standards. If you haven't yet, I suggest you read Karl Popper.


    The lie branding comes from a John Wayne film, The Quiet Man. Upon returning home to Inisfree from the US he hears the town antagonist stating something that just isn’t the case. Rather than shout and berate him for spouting such foolishness, Wayne firmly but quietly states the truth by calling what was said a lie.
     
    You are not John Wayne, and he is a fictional character.
  177. @Twinkie

    Koreans are not Japanese.
     
    As I recall, about 40% of Japanese high nobility trace their origin to Korea.

    In the post war years, a significant number of "Japanese" sports athletes, pop stars, gangsters, etc. have been ethnic Koreans. Many have been pressured to adopt Japanese names and hide their Korean origin in return for acceptance of sorts.

    Apparently enough Japanese believe that Koreans can be assimilated into Japanese society. But then they do share considerable genetic closeness.

    That’s been debated over the decades as to the exact percentage of high nobility. Anywhere from 40% to 10%.

    Shintaro Katsu, one of the biggest Alist entertainers, was ethnically 100% Japanese. So were film directors Kurosawa, Mizuguchi, Ozu, Kobayashi, Ichikawa, Inagaki, etc. Point being that Japan’s film industry owed nothing to other East Asian nations; it was the most advanced film industry in all of Asia at that time.

    Besides, as with gangsters, athletes, and entertainers, the nobility is not a significant representation of the people. Again. Japan is a nation of about 120 million. At best, About 1-2 million are of Korean descent. I tend to to think that 1-2 million is not a significant minority of about 120 million and I trust that you do the same. That is, I assume that you understand that 1-2 million (if it is even that high) is not a significant minority of 120 million people.

    If they were consistent, the Japanese should send these Korean immigrants packing back to Soeul.

    • Replies: @Twinkie

    That’s been debated over the decades as to the exact percentage of high nobility. Anywhere from 40% to 10%.
     
    The most reliable figure from a neutral party (meaning, Western research, neither Japanese nor Korean scholarship, both of which are highly suspect on these extremely emotional nationalist topics) is around 40%.

    Try publicizing that figure in Japan, and you will swiftly earn a persona non grata status from the Japanese government... which is silly because the Japanese imperial family already acknowledged its own Korean descent (but only on the matrilineal side, as if to save face).

    Besides, as with gangsters, athletes, and entertainers, the nobility is not a significant representation of the people. Again. Japan is a nation of about 120 million. At best, About 1-2 million are of Korean descent.
     
    Your statement earlier was "Koreans are not Japanese." Plainly, many Koreans are.

    Officially, the number of Koreans in Japan is about 1 million. However, the number of Japanese with significant amount of relatively recent (say in the last 100 years) Korean ancestry is probably several times that number, given that such ancestry is quite frequently hidden. I would not be surprised if that number is as high as ten to twenty times greater than the official number of Koreans in Japan.

    And, of course, Koreans and Japanese share about 30-40% genetic commonality, so they are not all that different in the first place (and also interesting to note that where they differ genetically, Koreans have much greater Siberian genetic input while Japanese have much greater Southeast Asian/Austronesian genetic input).

    If they were consistent, the Japanese should send these Korean immigrants packing back to Soeul.
     
    A majority of "Koreans" in Japan today are Japanese-born (many are third generation or beyond), only speak Japanese, have only known Japan and Japanese life, and are completely integrated into Japanese society. Not only would such a move raise incredible international furor, it would seriously destabilize Japan's own internal peace.
  178. @Reg Cæsar

    I’m pretty sure Hal Blaine played drums for The Carpenters on the records…
     
    When he was hired to do so, he checked out Karen's skills and said he was impressed. So, why didn't he do the chivalrous thing and tell the client to keep her? He sure wasn't hard up for work-- that's not what the fine print on my '70s LP collection tells me.

    I nominate Karen as the best singing drummer ever, hands down.

    Hold it, hold it. Now come on now!

    Karen Carpenter, then as today, is primarily known for one main thing. Her SINGING. At twenty yrs old, her voice was more mature and had a depth of range in lyrical interpretation that rivaled Sinatra.

    Her ability to sing was nearly unmatched in pop music of the era. She dominated.

    Focusing on her drumming is tantamount to saying that HOF P Walter Johnson had an amazing curve. Uh, no, he was the premier fastballer of the first half of the 20th century.

    Place the emphasis where it belongs.

    Karen = one great singer.

  179. @M_Young
    "White birth rates seem very rarely mentioned in these kinds of write-ups. Why?

    Immigration and who is allowed legally or illegally to enter the US is an important topic, but European American families going from an average of 3 or 4 kids to the current 2 or less, is unsustainable. To fill the vacuum, replacement humans have to come from somewhere; for better or worse."

    1) No they don't, anymore than we need 'replacement farmers' for the millions that left ag in the 20th century. What we do need is a better way of financing the retirement system, since wages are less and less a component of national income.

    2) Perhaps if there weren't constant downward pressure, Euro-Americans could afford and extra kid or two, or not waste years in college and grad school and have more kids that way. After all, the Baby Boom happened during the Great Immigration Restriction.

    1) No they don’t, anymore than we need ‘replacement farmers’ for the millions that left ag in the 20th century. What we do need is a better way of financing the retirement system, since wages are less and less a component of national income.

    Automation came first
    Computerization next
    Robotization of the workplace is just gearing up……

    And will replace many unskilled workers while driving down their wages and skilled workers wages. We don’t need any more unskilled 3rd worlders who don’t speak English and who are not too bright. They are a net economic drain from the system when we see all they take from our social welfare systems. They sure as hell will not be helping older Americans to retire.

    We have enough third worlders here. Some (blacks) have been here for a few hundred years. Just about all Hispanics are the result of post WW2 immigration. America was always an Anglo country with a black minority that was 9-10% in 1950. Throw in a very few Asians and Amerindians in 1950.

    The real trick here is to get our internal third world populations off their asses and into the fields. Bus them in from the cities, I don’t care. Its not that easy to automate/roboticize growing and picking cabbages/lettuce/carrots. Same for tree crops such as cherries, apples, walnuts, almonds. They can only be automated around the edges.

    But once you get indoors out of the rain and wind, into manufacturing plants, offices, restaurants and retail, there in plenty more room for various hi-tech to eliminate workers. MacDonald’s is introducing touch screen ordering as a response to the OWS type agitation for high minimum wages

  180. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Uh, Korea, Japan, and China are among the world's leading industrialized nations. Japan and Korea would certainly be among the world's top five/ten standards of living. Japan's standard of living easily matches the UK and Germany while Korea is not far behind.

    Japan is less agrarian but it does still protect its farmers. One issue of the most recent election was that the farmers wanted to maintain their protective tariffs on foodstuffs. Japan, China, and Korea still have tariffs and certainly higher than the US.

    Perhaps you should take up your support of free trade with economist Paul Craig Roberts and why it leads to strong economic growth. In theory this may be the case but in practice it only helps to eliminate middle class jobs in the long term.


    "Except the dramatic rise of their standards of living in the post-war years has coincided with reductions in their tariffs and lowering other trade barriers."


    Now that's not quite accurate. The US heavily invested in Japan's infrastructure (helped out in writing of its new Constitution for instance) as well as footing the bill for national defense. We helped build them back up while they kept most of their tariffs and trade barriers. They still have both in some areas, certainly more than us. Japan isn't particularly known as a free trade haven the way the US is. Japan was on the rise beginning with the Meiji Restoration of 1868, when they decided to westernize at full speed. By about 1920 they were in a much stronger economic position and were on their way to becoming a first world nation by about 1930.

    China still has protective tariffs. Also, you left out a major part regarding Japan's rapid rise of economic growth of that period. They spent little on their national defense since the US was footing the bill, so to speak, for several decades. They still have their protective tariffs especially on foodstuffs and other local goods.



    "To be sure, all three have considerably higher non-tariff barriers (NTBs) than the U.S. has. But then again, they also have lower standards of living as well. "

    Japan's standard of living is about on par with the US. By all leading economic indicators, Japan is a first world nation. It certainly is on par with Germany and the UK, both of which are of course first world economies. China is poised to become the world's largest economy by end of decade so it is clearly on its way to becoming a first world economic nation. South Korea is also a first world economy.

    The lie branding comes from a John Wayne film, The Quiet Man. Upon returning home to Inisfree from the US he hears the town antagonist stating something that just isn't the case. Rather than shout and berate him for spouting such foolishness, Wayne firmly but quietly states the truth by calling what was said a lie.

    Uh, Korea, Japan, and China are among the world’s leading industrialized nations. Japan and Korea would certainly be among the world’s top five/ten standards of living. Japan’s standard of living easily matches the UK and Germany while Korea is not far behind.

    Yes. But it still does not change the fact that the median standards of living in those countries are lower than that in the United States.

    See: http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2014/08/why-britain-is-poorer-than-any-us-state-other-than-mississippi/

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2013/06/01/astonishing-numbers-americas-poor-still-live-better-than-most-of-the-rest-of-humanity/

    I lived and worked in both Japan and Korea. And they are both wonderfully modern countries with polite, law-abiding populations. There is much to recommend to both countries. But though getting closer, their standards of living are measurably lower than that of the United States. This becomes particularly glaring when you delve into their rural areas (meanwhile some of their urban metropolises are more advanced than their American counterparts in other ways, e.g. high speed internet).

    One issue of the most recent election was that the farmers wanted to maintain their protective tariffs on foodstuffs. Japan, China, and Korea still have tariffs and certainly higher than the US.

    Japanese rice farmers account for a very small (and declining/aging) portion of the population, but exert an enormous political power due to their relationship with the long-dominant Liberal Democratic party that ruled Japan for much of its history. I have had numerous conversations with Japanese economists and government officials who privately acknowledge that the protection of the Japanese rice farmers from external competition has hurt Japanese consumers and Japanese exporters enormously. They will ALL tell you in private that the relationship is entirely political in nature and benefits only a tiny fraction of the population.

    While historically East Asian countries have had higher tariffs, that has changed greatly in the last thirty years and continue to change. Why? Because there are now significant hurdles to enacting tariffs – they bring swift retaliation under international trading rules. And that goes for “unfair pricing” as well (see a recent spat: http://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-plans-tariffs-on-korean-steel-pipe-due-to-alleged-unfair-pricing-1405111640).

    Instead, countries like Japan have relied more on non-tariff barriers to be more protectionist (e.g. agricultural goods rotting during a lengthy “inspection” period, idiosyncratic distribution systems and requirements that subtly favor the local companies, etc.). But even those are becoming very difficult to enact and maintain because of greatly increased transnational transparency and knowledge.

    You seem to suffer from basic reading comprehension skills. The correlations I pointed out earlier of the increasing East Asian living standards and falling tariffs need not indicate causation, but is merely an evidence for the falsification of the idea that protectionism protects or improves middle class living standards. If you haven’t yet, I suggest you read Karl Popper.

    The lie branding comes from a John Wayne film, The Quiet Man. Upon returning home to Inisfree from the US he hears the town antagonist stating something that just isn’t the case. Rather than shout and berate him for spouting such foolishness, Wayne firmly but quietly states the truth by calling what was said a lie.

    You are not John Wayne, and he is a fictional character.

  181. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    That's been debated over the decades as to the exact percentage of high nobility. Anywhere from 40% to 10%.

    Shintaro Katsu, one of the biggest Alist entertainers, was ethnically 100% Japanese. So were film directors Kurosawa, Mizuguchi, Ozu, Kobayashi, Ichikawa, Inagaki, etc. Point being that Japan's film industry owed nothing to other East Asian nations; it was the most advanced film industry in all of Asia at that time.

    Besides, as with gangsters, athletes, and entertainers, the nobility is not a significant representation of the people. Again. Japan is a nation of about 120 million. At best, About 1-2 million are of Korean descent. I tend to to think that 1-2 million is not a significant minority of about 120 million and I trust that you do the same. That is, I assume that you understand that 1-2 million (if it is even that high) is not a significant minority of 120 million people.

    If they were consistent, the Japanese should send these Korean immigrants packing back to Soeul.

    That’s been debated over the decades as to the exact percentage of high nobility. Anywhere from 40% to 10%.

    The most reliable figure from a neutral party (meaning, Western research, neither Japanese nor Korean scholarship, both of which are highly suspect on these extremely emotional nationalist topics) is around 40%.

    Try publicizing that figure in Japan, and you will swiftly earn a persona non grata status from the Japanese government… which is silly because the Japanese imperial family already acknowledged its own Korean descent (but only on the matrilineal side, as if to save face).

    Besides, as with gangsters, athletes, and entertainers, the nobility is not a significant representation of the people. Again. Japan is a nation of about 120 million. At best, About 1-2 million are of Korean descent.

    Your statement earlier was “Koreans are not Japanese.” Plainly, many Koreans are.

    Officially, the number of Koreans in Japan is about 1 million. However, the number of Japanese with significant amount of relatively recent (say in the last 100 years) Korean ancestry is probably several times that number, given that such ancestry is quite frequently hidden. I would not be surprised if that number is as high as ten to twenty times greater than the official number of Koreans in Japan.

    And, of course, Koreans and Japanese share about 30-40% genetic commonality, so they are not all that different in the first place (and also interesting to note that where they differ genetically, Koreans have much greater Siberian genetic input while Japanese have much greater Southeast Asian/Austronesian genetic input).

    If they were consistent, the Japanese should send these Korean immigrants packing back to Soeul.

    A majority of “Koreans” in Japan today are Japanese-born (many are third generation or beyond), only speak Japanese, have only known Japan and Japanese life, and are completely integrated into Japanese society. Not only would such a move raise incredible international furor, it would seriously destabilize Japan’s own internal peace.

  182. To repeat, those who cite the heydays of the American unionism and the relatively high wages American workers enjoyed are confusing coincidence with causation.

    The historically high wages American workers have enjoyed have been largely a function of larger historical forces than trade or labor policy. The last extended period of great American prosperity (the post-war boom) was almost entirely due to the collapse of all competitors in the ashes of World War II combined with the war-driven growth (and innovations) of the American economy.

    The current international economic conditions are not going to change just because the U.S. becomes more protectionist and pro-union. In my view, the two fundamental reasons behind the decline of the American middle class are 1) the vastly altered global economic landscape due to the rise of other economic competitors and changing technologies and 2) the gross misallocation of educational-labor resources in the United States.

    The first factor I already described earlier and above. Now the second factor – education and labor misallocation. Try this for change: http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2012-07-19/german-vocational-training-model-offers-alternative-path-to-youth

    Too many American youths in the median IQ range go to “college,” study fluff and party, and are completely unprepared for the job market. And their professional goals are far more aspirational than are based on reality, both their own IQ/skillsets and the market conditions.

    Germans have managed to protect their middle class better because they separate their pupils into three aptitude-based categories starting with secondary education. In other words, they have a very realistic educational and career-planning system in place.

    Many in America complain that “well-paying middle class jobs” have all been outsourced to China or India. But that’s not quite true at all. The real devastation of the American labor has been in the repetitive low-skill labor. For example, our textile industry is all but gone due to obvious reasons that should require no explanation. Other “middle class” jobs that are outsourced are still mostly low skill work (though I fully acknowledge that increasingly higher skill work is being outsourced too).

    But there are many truly middle class jobs of technical nature that go unfilled in this country. Those range from the types of industrial jobs mentioned in the Business Week article above to something simpler like H/VAC work (for example, where I live, primary care doctors make around $75-125 per hour; meanwhile H/VAC technicians make $50-$100 per hour, and some even as high as $150 per hour – that should tell you about the relative scarcity of the latter). Yet go ask students in middle and high schools and the vast majority of students who will never have that kind of rewarding profession will disdain such work and will talk about being doctors, lawyers, IT executives, singers, film stars, athletes, politicians, etc.

    • Replies: @Former Darfur
    HVAC techs have short careers because the work is unpleasant and physically demanding. They tend to do something else when they get to 35 or 40. This is also the case with car mechanics and why there is always a demand. You're either hot or cold and always dirty and often sore even when young.
  183. @Hyderabad Secularist
    >> You see, whitey solved that problem — for the overwhelming majority — before doing that moon stuff.

    Whitey solved that problem by flushing his s%t it in the sea, and has done more to befoul the environment and create catastrophic global warming than the Rest combined.

    Steve thinks that race replacement isn't viable because there is something special and creative about whitey. All of us non-whiteys disagree.

    “Steve thinks that race replacement isn’t viable because there is something special and creative about whitey. All of us non-whiteys disagree.”

    Yet all you non-whiteys take every opportunity to move to whitey countries. And while you were mostly in oppressor classes at home, you quickly learn to whine and play the victim card when in whitey-land.

    You should go home, figure out how to dispose of your poop, and then try to improve your own country.

    Anyway, there is something special about Indians (7-11’s, not casinos; or dots not feathers as the saying goes): you have to be the worst athletes on the planet. A billion people and ONE gold medal in the past 32 years (and that was in air rifle, aka “the bb gun”).

  184. “But then the country that the Founding Fathers established did not exist by the time of Armstrong on the moon either.”

    Let’s see .. Armstrong, Aldrin, Collins. Conrad, Gordon, Bean, Lovell, Swigert, Haise, …

    All of those names could have been in the US at the time of its founding.

    • Replies: @Twinkie

    Let’s see .. Armstrong, Aldrin, Collins. Conrad, Gordon, Bean, Lovell, Swigert, Haise, …

    All of those names could have been in the US at the time of its founding.
     
    Perhaps. But the underlying genetic composition of America c. Armstrong on the Moon was significantly different from that in 1776.

    Perhaps you are one of these folks to whom "white" is "white" no matter what. But there ARE different kinds of whites in the world.
  185. @Mark Minter
    There is a whole category of immigration that is not being considered by comments in this post.

    There are two foreign worker programs, H1B and then another of foreign citizens who got masters degrees from US institutions that can be hired and are exempt from H1B limits. The limit on the first program is 65,000 and the second is 20,000. One set of calculations done in 2009 had set the number of these workers in the US at 650,000 taking into consideration applications and then various forms of attrition.

    Consider that 90% of those two numbers per year are still in America. H1B renewals were not effected by annual limits. Then added up over the history of all of it, and I can easily think back to 1995 and you start to have a tech population that is easily 35-40% of the total. It's been almost 20 years or more, by my count. And that does little to take in those "driven out", like one of my former managers who I met a few years later, that was installing cable. The trend of companies is to keep the H1B guy because of the "trickiness" of the application process and then lay off the local guy. Given the "up and down" nature of tech in the 2000s, layoffs in 2002-2003 had dramatic effect on some people, then they landed somewhere, maybe, then a few years later, to get hit again, often because they were in a new area technologically for them, and lacked or never gained the soundness in that field.

    One of the big deals, and this cannot be underplayed, is that much development went offshore. This was the nuts and bolts designing, writing, and testing of software. And for each developer job that went offshore, then usually support jobs went with it. Lots. So when coder jobs went over there, then so too did manager jobs, tester jobs, documentation jobs, all these jobs that provided really the "middle class" of tech.

    Also for many people, since the world of tech shifted in the US from onshore staff writing code to doing operations of systems created offshore, then for many people, they basically lost the value of their skills and had to learn to shift over into this new mode, running and maintaining systems instead of developing software. And it is not the same thing.

    Also as each "wave" of tech, even "versions" of major software products came out and migrated into use, often it was these newer immigrants that were hired to do it, mostly just because they were new, and the older employees were already mired in to the "old" stuff, because the old stuff was in production. For example, there was massive shift between Oracle 9 and Oracle 10. And really most of the world was using Oracle 8 and never converted to Oracle 9. And there was a huge degree of difference between the two. So projects might migrate to the new versions, when they had to. And these Indians were then hired to come in "learn" the Oracle 10, set it up, and what they learned what very much newer. So then eventually, the migrations were done, and overnight the skills of the locals were obsolete. And if they got laid off by economic conditions, when they went out to interview, nobody gave a crap about their experience. Especially when instead of 3 or 4 roughly capable candidates there were 10 like in 2008-2009.

    It just happened really "overnight". In the days before the dot com bust, Americans were the large majority of development then when recovery came, it was an Indian thing. And with the flow of the 85,000 per year more over the last 10 years, and consider this idea of Entryism where a small group gets in, then lets in more, and if they can control a dominant activity, then they can push out and lock out others not in their group.

    To me, the 90s proved that American tech salaries were the dominant driver in the economy. It drove the stock market. If people are working, then they contribute to 401K in a river of purchases. They can't take the money out; it just flows in and drives up the Market.

    The effect in the economy is very subtle. I once read about Fed Ex and UPS as bellweather companies. I asked the local driver about activity (in 2007) he said it was half of what it was the year before, 3 months later, the bottom fell out. The American programmers were chubby-ish white beta males. What they did with their salaries, at least what they personally got, was they drove used cars and they ate lunch, (thus the chubby), and they gave the rest to their wives. Their value to women was they were employed, honest, calm, dependable "Dads". Then the women took that money and drove the American economy. Indians do not do the same thing. Who knows how much money is sent from America to India. Also another fact is that Indian consulting companies drove out American companies, these smaller companies that would find talent, supply them for periods to bigger companies, pay the employees like a bank, then get paid by the bigger companies quarterly. A ton of smallish companies did this, as well as some very big ones. And they have driven out by the big Indian companies and many of these companies have very few employees onshore doing the administration of these contract employees. And consider the cost to American families, to American women in "where are all the good men", in fathers, and even in "kids born", kids that could have turned out to be somebody but never will give us the benefit of them living. I have this saying "It takes 1 guy with a good idea to feed 1000 people". Obviously there are bunch of those "1 guys" that never will be, either never get the exposure to even a clue about the idea, that never see a tech and think "fuck they're doing that all wrong", never have the benefit of these great American thinkers like Ritchie, the nerd from Staten Island who had to commute to Long Island on the ferry, then on the train, and he read semiconductor data books and drew me circuits on a napkin and taught me better than any prof, or Jim Dimino, the big burly Italian who literally was in a junior high gang with Sammy the Bull and missed the life because one night his dad heard some rumors and locked him in his bedroom. And Sammy and the rest got arrested for some stupid shit they did. And Jim went on to be this big designer in the Bell System and ran our design sessions with a yardstick in his hand and hollered at me and the others in that Italian Gangster accent, "Your fucking talking like you know what your talking about!" and then one day we did, because he hollered at us, with a ruler in his hand like a nun.

    I can go and on. H1B and outsourcing screwed the American middle class, and really is a self defeating thing for US companies. It is like steroids in sports. One competitor does it, then the rest have to. And no matter the cost to each, they can't stop or they lose. And because it started it dried up a lot of the pipeline of being coming into a field with entry level stuff.

    Even the guys that started Fairchild, got their start because the US Gov was paying a lot of people to work on tube based electronics. You learned tubes and circuits using them. Then shifted over to solid state. I can remember going to tech school, some pretty technical stuff, roughly the equivalent of Electronic Enginering without the fluff that a university program has. And at night we sat around and read Gearhead mags, Hot Rod, technical stuff about car engines because that was what guys did back then. The marriage of the two created this very competent bunch of guys, ones that could think in the "spatial" and then ones that were good with tools, lathes, mechanical stuff. When I first started in software, even then, it was nothing for guys I worked with to take the computers apart and do stuff to them, just look it and start point, "That must this thing, and that over there is that other thing." We ran our own cabling, we jumpered the boards ourselves, we installed new hardware, drives. We all had tools in our desks. It was very unique set of workers in the history of the world, guys that were just as comfortable under the hood of a car, as they were running bebuggers on code, and many were just as comfortable on a tractor or in a machine shop. And younger guys would come in, and these were the "teachers" they would encounter and learn from. This strange combination of Americanism and Protestantism all with a burly American macho swagger, this set of "shit testing" between guys, this sort of "get over here and learn something, idiot" teasing, that produced really incredible leaps and bounds.

    And now they are gone. And dudes from Punjab have those jobs now. And your son will never get them again.

    Holy crap Mark – you really can’t help yourself can you? You really just need to hear yourself spew garbage every day of your life don’t you?
    You show up every where – thanks for making it so much easier for us.

  186. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    “In fact, the whole idea of comparative advantages disappears if people can move freely.”

    People today can now move nearly freely, for all practical purposes, if you ignore legal restrictions (and clearly a lot do). Maybe comparative advantage is dwindling into the past. Welcome to the brave new world of absolute advantage.

    We need to start thinking of what it means if anyone in the world can travel just about anywhere else in the world for, say, $1000 US.

    It’s not just the wonders of modern jet aircraft. The modern container ship is spectacularly efficient. Somebody is bound to think of using all those surplus ships for cheap, slow people movers by and by. Better than traveling in the container, that gets so old so fast…

  187. The US has the highest level of student debt in the western world and also one of the highest levels of graduate underemployment among western nations. Why don’t US captains of industry admit this is a problem and recommend that college intakes be regulated in line with market demand? or at least provide students which accurate information about labour market outcomes for graduates.

    You’re expecting the country to identify and resolve a fairly large problem, something which it doesn’t really have the capacity to do anymore.

  188. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    For the US, Vietnam was just one large battle or campaign in the Cold War. Like a lot of complex battles in the middle of long campaigns, both sides won some things and lost some things; often how they value its result is different. Whatever the case in Vietnam, the US convincingly won the overall Cold War.

    The US middle-class soldiered along, largely shouldering the burden of 40 years of military-footing. And then when the Cold War was finally won, their reward was to have their country flooded by third world immigrants. Maybe this had started in the early 60s as a backup-plan in case the US lost the Cold War and, at some future point, needed to instigate revolutions in countries around the world. But as it turned out, it was a low-blow to a lot of loyal middle-class Americans who had sacrificed a lot.

  189. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    “…the gross misallocation of educational-labor resources in the United States.”

    I wonder if the immense US public educational establishment was ever primarily intended for education. From civics classes many decades ago, I vaguely remember talk about how the educational system was designed to be the assimilation engine that produced “Americans” out of whatever it was fed.

    Perhaps unfortunately it actually worked when all the immigrants were Northern Europeans. It worked so well people were sure they were on to a good thing. It then worked with Southern Europeans, maybe with a little less effect and a little more effort, but it worked. Halaluah! Wash away all the tribalism, ethnicity, and clans that separate mankind and produce the New American Man! Then it was tried full force on African-Americans. It hasn’t yet worked in full (or even largely in part), but they are still trying. Perhaps in a triumph of optimism, or to momentarily obscure the difficulties with application to African-Americans, it was then applied, in effect, to the whole world, with mixed results. Works for some, for others it’s water off a duck’s back, like a lot of the African-Americans. For some of these people, even if it could work, they don’t want to not be who they think they are. They’d rather be themselves than the New American. I can understand and respect that.

    • Replies: @Twinkie

    I wonder if the immense US public educational establishment was ever primarily intended for education. From civics classes many decades ago, I vaguely remember talk about how the educational system was designed to be the assimilation engine that produced “Americans” out of whatever it was fed.
     
    I seriously doubt that the American education system of the earlier decades was meant primarily for the assimilation of immigrants.

    My sense is that, in the post-war years, what national educational policy that existed as such was geared toward besting the Soviets in whatever technical manifestations that were deemed important (e.g. space, nuclear, materials, etc.), in essence the enhance national politico-economic-military power.

    At some point, however, the enhancement of the national power was ditched as a goal and was substituted with some sort of a utopian notion of everyone being above average and going to university, which in turn seems to have led to the obsession with the self as the end for education rather than the defeat of external rivals and the conquest of new frontiers.
  190. @M_Young
    "But then the country that the Founding Fathers established did not exist by the time of Armstrong on the moon either."

    Let's see .. Armstrong, Aldrin, Collins. Conrad, Gordon, Bean, Lovell, Swigert, Haise, ...

    All of those names could have been in the US at the time of its founding.

    Let’s see .. Armstrong, Aldrin, Collins. Conrad, Gordon, Bean, Lovell, Swigert, Haise, …

    All of those names could have been in the US at the time of its founding.

    Perhaps. But the underlying genetic composition of America c. Armstrong on the Moon was significantly different from that in 1776.

    Perhaps you are one of these folks to whom “white” is “white” no matter what. But there ARE different kinds of whites in the world.

  191. @anonymous
    "...the gross misallocation of educational-labor resources in the United States."

    I wonder if the immense US public educational establishment was ever primarily intended for education. From civics classes many decades ago, I vaguely remember talk about how the educational system was designed to be the assimilation engine that produced "Americans" out of whatever it was fed.

    Perhaps unfortunately it actually worked when all the immigrants were Northern Europeans. It worked so well people were sure they were on to a good thing. It then worked with Southern Europeans, maybe with a little less effect and a little more effort, but it worked. Halaluah! Wash away all the tribalism, ethnicity, and clans that separate mankind and produce the New American Man! Then it was tried full force on African-Americans. It hasn't yet worked in full (or even largely in part), but they are still trying. Perhaps in a triumph of optimism, or to momentarily obscure the difficulties with application to African-Americans, it was then applied, in effect, to the whole world, with mixed results. Works for some, for others it's water off a duck's back, like a lot of the African-Americans. For some of these people, even if it could work, they don't want to not be who they think they are. They'd rather be themselves than the New American. I can understand and respect that.

    I wonder if the immense US public educational establishment was ever primarily intended for education. From civics classes many decades ago, I vaguely remember talk about how the educational system was designed to be the assimilation engine that produced “Americans” out of whatever it was fed.

    I seriously doubt that the American education system of the earlier decades was meant primarily for the assimilation of immigrants.

    My sense is that, in the post-war years, what national educational policy that existed as such was geared toward besting the Soviets in whatever technical manifestations that were deemed important (e.g. space, nuclear, materials, etc.), in essence the enhance national politico-economic-military power.

    At some point, however, the enhancement of the national power was ditched as a goal and was substituted with some sort of a utopian notion of everyone being above average and going to university, which in turn seems to have led to the obsession with the self as the end for education rather than the defeat of external rivals and the conquest of new frontiers.

    • Replies: @Hare Krishna
    Assimilation of immigrants was a major goal of the US' educational system until the middle of the 20th century - right when the number of immigrants was declining severely. The educational system we have now is in large part the result of 1950s reforms which presumed a society with few immigrants and a white American supermajority - factors that no longer apply.
  192. @Wilkey
    "They were war booty. I know a fellow whose grandfather was one of those scientists flown in. They were basically told that in exchange for not being Nuremberged, they would work for America and have nice cottages in a place called Huntsville, Alabama."

    It was called Operation Paperclip. 1500 Axis scientists and engineers, many facing war crimes charges, were brought to the US. Somehow I don't think many of the 12 million illegals in the US would qualify.

    But our goal wasn't just to acquire their talents for the US - it was to deny that talent to the USSR, Germany, and others. They certainly sped up our entry into space - and for the Cold War alone that was important - but does anyone really think we wouldn't have made it to the moon without them?

    “but does anyone really think we wouldn’t have made it to the moon without them?”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Vanguard

    After the launch of USSR Sputnik, the Navy led Vanguard rocket was chosen to launch the satellite instead of the Army (German) von Braun led Redstone rocket.

    first launch

    failure.
    second launch

    failure

    Only 3 success out of 11 launches.

    Meanwhile the first Redstone launch

    success.

    “The Redstone is what Alan Sheppard and Gus Grissom rode to orbit.”

    • Replies: @Former Darfur
    “The Redstone is what Alan Sheppard and Gus Grissom rode to orbit.”

    No, Redstone never orbited a capsule. It took Shepard and Grissom on a ballistic arc like what Virgin Galactic proposes to do with passengers. Glenn was first to orbit, same capsule, but a bigger rocket, an Atlas ICBM if I remember.
  193. Another masterpiece filmed in a bog standard, mid to late 1960s, Los Angeles suburb.

    And by bog standard, I mean stuff that the ‘supergroup’ of the time responded to — the Beatles never took mind of the Stones, but sure took mind of the Beach Boys.

    • Replies: @Former Darfur
    "And by bog standard, I mean stuff that the ‘supergroup’ of the time responded to — the Beatles never took mind of the Stones, but sure took mind of the Beach Boys."

    The four Beatles and five Rolling Stones interacted all the time on a personal level whereas they had little contact with Brian Wilson, who was the only creative Beach Boy. (Indeed, no one had much contact with Brian.)


    Macca was a fan of Brian's work, but there was not any interaction I know of. Yes, "Back in the USSR" was a Beach Boys tribute/spoof. Various Beatles and Stones played together all the time, on the other hand. There were dozens of odd gigs together.
  194. @dixie
    "but does anyone really think we wouldn’t have made it to the moon without them?"

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Vanguard

    After the launch of USSR Sputnik, the Navy led Vanguard rocket was chosen to launch the satellite instead of the Army (German) von Braun led Redstone rocket.

    first launch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVeFkakURXM failure.
    second launch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3y_LwN5afc failure

    Only 3 success out of 11 launches.

    Meanwhile the first Redstone launch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhTJ0dYLYKc success.

    "The Redstone is what Alan Sheppard and Gus Grissom rode to orbit."

    “The Redstone is what Alan Sheppard and Gus Grissom rode to orbit.”

    No, Redstone never orbited a capsule. It took Shepard and Grissom on a ballistic arc like what Virgin Galactic proposes to do with passengers. Glenn was first to orbit, same capsule, but a bigger rocket, an Atlas ICBM if I remember.

  195. @anonymous
    "The layoffs of tech talent from the space standdown were a big part of the reason California and not Route 128 (the ironically named Apollo Computer and Symbolics along with DEC) became the computer capital of the world."

    It might have helped a bit starting around the mid-90s... But Silicon Valley had won by the late 70s, with the advent of personal computers. Probably just due to all the Intel, Zilog, Shugart, and Seagate type companies. By the mid 80's Silicon Valley had won big, when microprocessor companies began making 32-bit CPU chips (Intel, NatSemi, the Sparc stuff...).

    During the 70's and 80's a lot of Route 128 engineers moved to Silicon Valley. Housing prices where cheaper and all that. Now a lot of Silicon Valley engineers have left for places like Route 128, where the cost of living isn't so high.

    It might have helped a bit starting around the mid-90s… But Silicon Valley had won by the late 70s, with the advent of personal computers. Probably just due to all the Intel, Zilog, Shugart, and Seagate type companies. By the mid 80′s Silicon Valley had won big, when microprocessor companies began making 32-bit CPU chips (Intel, NatSemi, the Sparc stuff…).

    Motorola (and many others) were 32 bit long before Intel, and NatSemi was never a successful CPU vendor: they’re primarily an analog house. Meanwhile, DEC had the Alpha at 64 bits ten-plus years before Intel had a successful 64 bit architecture, and look what happened to them. The failure of the unquestionably technically superior short instruction set CPU to dethrone x86 Intel-Intel’s own Itanic failed and all today’s Intel PCs run the AMD 64 bit extension family!-was the end of the first Silicon Valley era and the beginning of the Facebook mind share era, but that wouldn’t have happened had the first wave hit when it did.

  196. @M_Young
    Another masterpiece filmed in a bog standard, mid to late 1960s, Los Angeles suburb.

    And by bog standard, I mean stuff that the 'supergroup' of the time responded to -- the Beatles never took mind of the Stones, but sure took mind of the Beach Boys.

    “And by bog standard, I mean stuff that the ‘supergroup’ of the time responded to — the Beatles never took mind of the Stones, but sure took mind of the Beach Boys.”

    The four Beatles and five Rolling Stones interacted all the time on a personal level whereas they had little contact with Brian Wilson, who was the only creative Beach Boy. (Indeed, no one had much contact with Brian.)

    Macca was a fan of Brian’s work, but there was not any interaction I know of. Yes, “Back in the USSR” was a Beach Boys tribute/spoof. Various Beatles and Stones played together all the time, on the other hand. There were dozens of odd gigs together.

  197. @Twinkie

    I wonder if the immense US public educational establishment was ever primarily intended for education. From civics classes many decades ago, I vaguely remember talk about how the educational system was designed to be the assimilation engine that produced “Americans” out of whatever it was fed.
     
    I seriously doubt that the American education system of the earlier decades was meant primarily for the assimilation of immigrants.

    My sense is that, in the post-war years, what national educational policy that existed as such was geared toward besting the Soviets in whatever technical manifestations that were deemed important (e.g. space, nuclear, materials, etc.), in essence the enhance national politico-economic-military power.

    At some point, however, the enhancement of the national power was ditched as a goal and was substituted with some sort of a utopian notion of everyone being above average and going to university, which in turn seems to have led to the obsession with the self as the end for education rather than the defeat of external rivals and the conquest of new frontiers.

    Assimilation of immigrants was a major goal of the US’ educational system until the middle of the 20th century – right when the number of immigrants was declining severely. The educational system we have now is in large part the result of 1950s reforms which presumed a society with few immigrants and a white American supermajority – factors that no longer apply.

  198. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    “NatSemi was never a successful CPU vendor: they’re primarily an analog house.”

    A minor point of interest, NatSemi is no more, it got gobbled up by TI a few years ago.

    Back in 2011, it turns out. Another one bites the dust.

    All that outsourcing worked fast. It was odd walking into NatSemi late last century, lots of young and middle-aged Chinese and Indian engineers, a few old white longbeards that really stood out, ‘Bob Pease’ analog-guy types.

    Going off a bit on a tangent unrelated to the thread, while agreeing NatSemi never could succeed in the general CPU market, I believe NatSemi was successful, in a quiet way, for a long time with at least 2 long-lived CPU lines in “single-chip” micro-controller flavors, the 8-bit COP8, heavily used in cars (things like anti-lock brakes), and the 16 bit CR16, which I think had the world-wide fax-computer market sown up for a long time.

    (It looks like TI is still carrying the old NatSemi CPUs. Amusing, they still have the NS486 available! This was an odd single-chip 486 made around 1990 with no paging and no floating point (and other missing stuff so it could all get into a single chip with integrated I/O)… old embedded computer architectures truly take decades and decades to die!)

    • Replies: @Former Darfur
    I was thinking specifically of Bob Pease, whose columns in Electronic Design "What's With This( )Stuff" were enormously instructive and fun. I always enjoyed Bob and Linear Tech's Jim Williams. Ironically Pease was killed driving his VW from, or to, Williams' funeral......

    The 6502, 6800 and Z80 are all still multimillion unit architectures in the embedded space, as you know. I'm told the government still pays a fortune for the old Symbolics Lisp Machine CPU (Ivory) which is embedded into something they make for the Dept. of Energy.
  199. @anonymous
    "NatSemi was never a successful CPU vendor: they’re primarily an analog house."

    A minor point of interest, NatSemi is no more, it got gobbled up by TI a few years ago.

    Back in 2011, it turns out. Another one bites the dust.

    All that outsourcing worked fast. It was odd walking into NatSemi late last century, lots of young and middle-aged Chinese and Indian engineers, a few old white longbeards that really stood out, 'Bob Pease' analog-guy types.



    Going off a bit on a tangent unrelated to the thread, while agreeing NatSemi never could succeed in the general CPU market, I believe NatSemi was successful, in a quiet way, for a long time with at least 2 long-lived CPU lines in "single-chip" micro-controller flavors, the 8-bit COP8, heavily used in cars (things like anti-lock brakes), and the 16 bit CR16, which I think had the world-wide fax-computer market sown up for a long time.

    (It looks like TI is still carrying the old NatSemi CPUs. Amusing, they still have the NS486 available! This was an odd single-chip 486 made around 1990 with no paging and no floating point (and other missing stuff so it could all get into a single chip with integrated I/O)... old embedded computer architectures truly take decades and decades to die!)

    I was thinking specifically of Bob Pease, whose columns in Electronic Design “What’s With This( )Stuff” were enormously instructive and fun. I always enjoyed Bob and Linear Tech’s Jim Williams. Ironically Pease was killed driving his VW from, or to, Williams’ funeral……

    The 6502, 6800 and Z80 are all still multimillion unit architectures in the embedded space, as you know. I’m told the government still pays a fortune for the old Symbolics Lisp Machine CPU (Ivory) which is embedded into something they make for the Dept. of Energy.

  200. @Twinkie
    To repeat, those who cite the heydays of the American unionism and the relatively high wages American workers enjoyed are confusing coincidence with causation.

    The historically high wages American workers have enjoyed have been largely a function of larger historical forces than trade or labor policy. The last extended period of great American prosperity (the post-war boom) was almost entirely due to the collapse of all competitors in the ashes of World War II combined with the war-driven growth (and innovations) of the American economy.

    The current international economic conditions are not going to change just because the U.S. becomes more protectionist and pro-union. In my view, the two fundamental reasons behind the decline of the American middle class are 1) the vastly altered global economic landscape due to the rise of other economic competitors and changing technologies and 2) the gross misallocation of educational-labor resources in the United States.

    The first factor I already described earlier and above. Now the second factor - education and labor misallocation. Try this for change: http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2012-07-19/german-vocational-training-model-offers-alternative-path-to-youth

    Too many American youths in the median IQ range go to "college," study fluff and party, and are completely unprepared for the job market. And their professional goals are far more aspirational than are based on reality, both their own IQ/skillsets and the market conditions.

    Germans have managed to protect their middle class better because they separate their pupils into three aptitude-based categories starting with secondary education. In other words, they have a very realistic educational and career-planning system in place.

    Many in America complain that "well-paying middle class jobs" have all been outsourced to China or India. But that's not quite true at all. The real devastation of the American labor has been in the repetitive low-skill labor. For example, our textile industry is all but gone due to obvious reasons that should require no explanation. Other "middle class" jobs that are outsourced are still mostly low skill work (though I fully acknowledge that increasingly higher skill work is being outsourced too).

    But there are many truly middle class jobs of technical nature that go unfilled in this country. Those range from the types of industrial jobs mentioned in the Business Week article above to something simpler like H/VAC work (for example, where I live, primary care doctors make around $75-125 per hour; meanwhile H/VAC technicians make $50-$100 per hour, and some even as high as $150 per hour - that should tell you about the relative scarcity of the latter). Yet go ask students in middle and high schools and the vast majority of students who will never have that kind of rewarding profession will disdain such work and will talk about being doctors, lawyers, IT executives, singers, film stars, athletes, politicians, etc.

    HVAC techs have short careers because the work is unpleasant and physically demanding. They tend to do something else when they get to 35 or 40. This is also the case with car mechanics and why there is always a demand. You’re either hot or cold and always dirty and often sore even when young.

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