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From the Washington Post:

The real reasons the U.S. became less racist toward Asian Americans

By Jeff Guo November 29

Between 1940 and 1970, something remarkable happened to Asian Americans. Not only did they surpass African Americans in average household earnings, but they also closed the wage gap with whites.

Many people credit this upward mobility to investments in education. But according to a recent study by Brown University economist Nathaniel Hilger, schooling rates among Asian Americans didn’t change all that significantly during those three decades. Instead, Hilger’s research suggests that Asian Americans started to earn more because their fellow Americans became less racist toward them.

[The real secret to Asian American success was not education]

How did that happen? About the same time that Asian Americans were climbing the socioeconomic ladder, they also experienced a major shift in their public image. At the outset of the 20th century, Asian Americans had often been portrayed as threatening, exotic and degenerate.

The big concern among the working class on the West Coast in the late 19th and early 20th Centuries was mass immigration: leaders of the working classes, such as socialist novelist Jack London, saw the enormous populations of Asia as pools of cheap labor that American capitalists could use to crush the native labor movement in the U.S.

The immigration reforms of the 1880s to the 1920s lessened that quite rational concern by restricting the potential for mass immigration from Asia.

But of course as 99% of billionaires would tell you, we now know that the Law of Supply and Demand doesn’t apply to immigration because reasons. That’s why we have lots of immigration today and the labor movement is thriving. Who doesn’t know the names of today’s dozen most important union bosses? Such as that guy, and the other guy, and, you know, the guy who looks like Mike Ditka.

But by the 1950s and 1960s, the idea of the model minority had begun to take root. Newspapers often glorified Asian Americans as industrious, law-abiding citizens who kept their heads down and never complained.

Some people think that racism toward Asians diminished because Asians “proved themselves” through their actions. But that is only a sliver of the truth. Then, as now, the stories of successful Asians were elevated, while the stories of less successful Asians were diminished. As historian Ellen Wu explains in her book, “The Color of Success,” the model minority stereotype has a fascinating origin story, one that’s tangled up in geopolitics, the Cold War and the civil rights movement.

To combat racism, minorities in the United States have often attempted to portray themselves as upstanding citizens capable of assimilating into mainstream culture. Asian Americans were no different, Wu writes. Some, like the Chinese, sought respectability by promoting stories about their obedient children and their traditional family values. The Japanese pointed to their wartime service as proof of their shared Americanness.

African Americans in the 1940s made very similar appeals. But in the postwar moment, Wu argues, it was only convenient for political leaders to hear the Asian voices.

The model minority narrative may have started with Asian Americans, but it was quickly co-opted by white politicians who saw it as a tool to win allies in the Cold War. Discrimination was not a good look on the international stage. Embracing Asian Americans “provided a powerful means for the United States to proclaim itself a racial democracy and thereby credentialed to assume the leadership of the free world,” Wu writes. Stories about Asian American success were turned into propaganda.

Sure, but very similar dynamics were pushing American elites to get rid of Jim Crow and do nice things for blacks, who, after all, are much more charismatic on the world stage than are Asian Americans. For example, the US State Department paid for jazz man Dizzy Gillespie’s 1956 world tour (“Dizzy Gillespie’s Cold War Jazz Diplomacy“) and Louis Armstrong was even more of a regular as the State Department’s unofficial goodwill ambassador.

The President’s mother was very sensitive to which way the official winds were blowing from Washington through the U. of Hawaii, a major Cold War resource, and took it upon herself to do her part sexually by marrying an African and an Asian.

By the 1960s, anxieties about the civil right movement caused white Americans to further invest in positive portrayals of Asian Americans. The image of the hard-working Asian became an extremely convenient way to deny the demands of African Americans. As Wu describes in her book, both liberal and conservative politicians pumped up the image of Asian Americans as a way to shift the blame for black poverty. If Asians could find success within the system, politicians asked, why couldn’t African Americans?

Basically, nobody has agency other than white people. Who are evil.

 
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  1. OT, may be of interest, dog/human co-evolution:

    http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016/12/tibetan-dogs-can-survive-high-altitudes-thanks-ancient-breeding-wolves

    “It’s surprising and provocative that this [interbreeding] strategy has been employed by both species,” humans and dogs, says Frank Lee, a molecular biologist at the University of Pennsylvania who was not involved with the study. Indeed, such interbreeding between species has turned out to be unexpectedly common in other species, too.

    As far as gray wolves, there’s no genetic evidence that they got anything beneficial out of the deal, Ostrander notes. The same may be true for our Denisovan cousins. We’re still around, after all, and they’re not.

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  2. fnn says:

    Why Trump won in 2 Acts: pic.twitter.com/W6Y7tywVX2— EducatédHillbilly™ (@RobProvince) December 7, 2016

    Read More
    • Replies: @Almost Missouri
    To a son of the Heartland, it is obvious why a Heartland Governor has valuable experience with the crop-buying and manufacturing-developing Chinese. Millhiser's just some beltway-thinktank-dope without any real experience.

    So, yes, why Trump won indeed.

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  3. syonredux says:

    It’s a bit curious, this burning desire that some Asian Americans have to prove that, no, really, we’re actually just as unsuccessful as Blacks are.

    Read More
    • LOL: BenKenobi, Trelane
    • Replies: @Romanian
    Well, Afghanistan is in Asia, isn't it? You just have to switch to a British view of Asians (which specifically includes Jihadi-British) and the region starts looking less and less praiseworthy.
    , @(((Owen)))

    this burning desire that some Asian Americans have to prove that, no, really, we’re actually just as unsuccessful as Blacks
     
    It's the fraction of Asians that are bad at math trying to win back the love of their disappointed parents by extreme ethnocentrism.
    , @Arclight
    In our current age, everyone on the left is in a rush to identify with those they consider society's biggest losers. Basically its a fashionable type of slumming.
    , @attilathehen
    You don't have to prove you're unsuccessful. You are. Caucasians have the highest IQs and creativity. Asians can only copy. If Asia and Europe had never interacted, Europe would have still developed into a high civilization. Japan, China, et al. would still be tending rice paddies.
    , @snorlax
    They want to get their treatment under affirmative action reversed.

    I half-support that endeavor; when Harvard stops taking any white people, who'd care about Harvard anymore?
    , @guest
    It's only curious when you don't "get" PC. PC is like the Nothing from Neverending Story. It eats everything, including the self-worth of Asians.
    , @Erik Sieven
    Blacks in western countries are on average happier, more self-assure, sexually more successful, they physically fight and win more often, people laugh more about them and fear them more, they talk and think about them all the time and last but not least they have more children. Maybe some Asians think that by being academically and financially less successful they would automatically improve on those other scales, which of course are more important for life satisfaction than grades or net worth. This of course is a misconception
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  4. gman says:

    Off topic, but still related to race relations/immigration:

    Via chicago tribune: Discrimination suit alleges black temp workers passed over for Hispanics

    http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-discrimination-temporary-staffing-1207-biz-20161206-story.html

    Also, I found this stunning:
    A mother who fears are son may deported to Mexico believes that illegal immigrants from Central America should “go back to their land”

    “Teofila Montejo De La Cruz, a 72-year-old woman in Tenosique, worries her Los Angeles-based son will be deported under Trump, and wonders if he will be able to find a job in Mexico if he has to come back.

    Montejo has become known as a guardian angel for the Central American immigrants in Tenosique, giving them work in her restaurant and letting them sleep on the floor of her snack shop. But even she doesn’t believe large numbers of Central Americans should be able to stay permanently in Mexico.

    “At some point, they have to go back to their own land,” she said.”

    http://www.latimes.com/world/mexico-americas/la-fg-mexico-central-america-immigrants-20161114-story.html

    Read More
    • Replies: @anon

    Off topic, but still related to race relations/immigration:

    Via chicago tribune: Discrimination suit alleges black temp workers passed over for Hispanics

    http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-discrimination-temporary-staffing-1207-biz-20161206-story.html
     

    "Green said the pattern, based on the perception that blacks don't want to work, is "clear-as-day racist" and unfairly applied to him even though "every time I walk into a temp agency I work my butt off. Green, who has eight kids, seven of whom live with him, said he lost faith in the temp industry and instead supports his family doing construction and other manual work for family members."

    If you're stupid and skeezy enough to be single with 8 kids and no job skill to keep you out of the temp market, I guarantee you're too stupid and skeezy to work in a professional environment, and hispanics have NO patience for old timey negro ways. That is a fact.

    What I've kept repeating, and no progressive blacks want to hear–I know because I've said this to a number of black friends, and they find it inconceivable–many hispanics don't like american blacks. Not because of their skin color, but because of their shitty old timey negro culture. And they will confront black folks who give them a hard time with it, and they will win the debate/fight/contest more often than not, one way or another.

    Great idea voting for Obama, and good luck with your new Hispanic Overlords.

    You'll need it. They hate you.

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  5. Romanian says:
    @syonredux
    It's a bit curious, this burning desire that some Asian Americans have to prove that, no, really, we're actually just as unsuccessful as Blacks are.

    Well, Afghanistan is in Asia, isn’t it? You just have to switch to a British view of Asians (which specifically includes Jihadi-British) and the region starts looking less and less praiseworthy.

    Read More
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  6. @syonredux
    It's a bit curious, this burning desire that some Asian Americans have to prove that, no, really, we're actually just as unsuccessful as Blacks are.

    this burning desire that some Asian Americans have to prove that, no, really, we’re actually just as unsuccessful as Blacks

    It’s the fraction of Asians that are bad at math trying to win back the love of their disappointed parents by extreme ethnocentrism.

    Read More
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  7. Both the piece cited and Sailer leave out the fact that white men (such as me) find Asian women (such as my wife) beautiful to a far greater extent than they do black or hispanic or, eventually, white. Love and marriage are inevitably followed by a horse and carriage which leads to kids and a mortgage (sorry, lost the rhyme) which means that MANY white boys learned how extraordinary Asian women (and by extension, their brothers and father) were, which speeded the process extraordinarily.

    Read More
    • Replies: @colm
    One thing the roundeyes forget is sons born in White-Asian union will be often too Asian for white girls and too 'non-white' for Asian girls, making them unattractive to either sides.

    Example: Elliot Rodger

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  8. Anon says: • Disclaimer

    Damn… I’m the only true race-ist.

    Even Alt Right rejects the term.

    Only I embrace it, therefore only I have the truth.

    Read More
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  9. Dave Pinsen says: • Website

    As Ed West noted in another context, World War II is about as far back as most observers go when looking at historical explanations, so they ignore stuff like the populist reaction to mass Chinese immigration in the late 19th Century (see Niall Ferguson drawing the parallels between that and Trumpism in the tweet below).

    I read in a college text book years ago that attitudes toward Chinese Americans turned around in the early 20th Century, and one of the reasons for that was the growth of Chinese welfare charities of the sort other recent immigrant ethnic groups had in big cities prior to the advent of the welfare state. I guess the idea was that people respected groups that took care of their own.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Mark F.
    People also respect groups that have low crimes rates and low rates of social dysfunction. Asian on Asian shootings are extremely rare, unlike blacks shooting each other. And nobody is afraid to walk around Asian neighborhoods or have Asian neighbors.
    , @syonredux
    MMM, well, Ferguson gets a few points for explaining that no, Trump isn't Hitler and we are not experiencing Fascism redux. But then he loses points for actually recommending that anyone read Roth's The Plot Against America. A terrible book, interesting only as an illustration of the Holocaust envy felt by certain American Jews...
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  10. Anon says: • Disclaimer

    Some people think that racism toward Asians diminished because Asians “proved themselves” through their actions. But that is only a sliver of the truth. Then, as now, the stories of successful Asians were elevated, while the stories of less successful Asians were diminished.

    Lol! Because that never happened with, say, blacks.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Forbes
    A non sequitur is ever there was one regarding "a sliver of truth."

    Story-telling, anecdotes, and oral histories include tales of success and accomplishment because those are the stories that engage and excite the imagination. No one makes a habit of retailing stories of failure because everyone is personally acquainted with it--been there, done that, have the merit badge.
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  11. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    The conventional wisdom on stereotypes resembles a conspiracy theory. Instead of stereotypes being formed organically as ordinary people notice trends, they are concocted by the media and politicians and the general public is brainwashed.

    Read More
    • Replies: @syonredux

    The conventional wisdom on stereotypes resembles a conspiracy theory. Instead of stereotypes being formed organically as ordinary people notice trends, they are concocted by the media and politicians and the general public is brainwashed.
     
    In one of his books (The Blank Slate, I think) Pinker points out that stereotypes are simply a stylized model of reality. Hence, stereotypes can only exist if they are rooted in fact. So, back when Japanese products were bad, we had the stereotype about "Jap crap" (e.g., the crack in Woody Allen's Sleeper about those damn Japanese flying packs). However, once Japanese products improved, the stereotype changed, and "Made in Japan" became a sign of quality.
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  12. Nothing to do with IQ, Confucian values, intact families, high home ownership rates. Nada.

    Tots because White people.

    Read More
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  13. Hollywood has been attempting to “elevate” Black characters for sometime now. It’s almost a stereotype in movies and TV with a ensemble casts having a Black actor playing a technical/computer/science wizard. For example Don Cheadle in the Ocean’s movies or Ving Rhames in the Mission Impossible movies. It doesn’t seem to have stuck in reality as the supposed Asian elevation. I guess they should try harder.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Forbes
    Female leads/token characters have this same brilliant technical/computer/science wiz attributes that is far over the top--as if trying to manufacture a stereotype. Or else a fighting/martial arts combat machine that beggars belief--almost unwatchable except as fantasy.
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  14. Yan Shen says:

    Did anti-Asian racism really decline? It seems like generally today it’s permissible for all other ethnic groups to mock Asian Americans, i.e. Oscars Asian skit, etc. And Asian bashing in general, even amongst white liberals, seems to be par for the course.

    I’ve seen plenty of anti-Asian racism from white, black, and Hispanic Americans in equal measure, so hard for me to say that there’s been a decline in anti-Asian racism as a whole.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Fidelios Automata
    Well, it's OK for POC to dis other POC, depending on their place in the victim ladder.
    And as much as I hate political correctness, I personally don't feel as bad lampooning a successful group (WASPS, Jews, East Asians) than a truly sad and disadvantage bunch like the Native Americans.
    , @Georg E
    I find this observation curious. It's hard to tell what would constitute anti-Asian "racism". An Asian (born in US) colleague observed that she had spent a year north of Seattle near the Canadian border and would never return because of the racism. I asked her what had happened. She said that upon a visit to a mountain valley village she had been complimented on how well she spoke English. That was it. Apparently, it was too much to handle. I wasn't so convinced that this actually constituted racism. That was much better than the treatment I experienced as a German speaking white fellow in Austria, where my German questions were answered in English. In case I was left with any doubt, I was usually informed that my German was wanting. This wasn't racism, just rudeness. But what do I know? Maybe you mean incidents like the time some Morro Bay hick screamed out and called me a faggot while I was walking my dogs through his town, or when some random Central American immigrant spat at me when I smiled a greeting at him on the streets of Portland. These things happen all the time. It's not racism, just humans being rude.
    , @Jefferson
    "Did anti-Asian racism really decline? It seems like generally today it’s permissible for all other ethnic groups to mock Asian Americans, i.e. Oscars Asian skit, etc."

    Chris Rock poking fun of Asians is not racism because Blacks are not capable of being racist. As an Asian didn't they tell you that at your last Coalition Of The Fringes meeting? I know all of you Asians attend those meetings.
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  15. Mark F. says:
    @Dave Pinsen
    As Ed West noted in another context, World War II is about as far back as most observers go when looking at historical explanations, so they ignore stuff like the populist reaction to mass Chinese immigration in the late 19th Century (see Niall Ferguson drawing the parallels between that and Trumpism in the tweet below).

    I read in a college text book years ago that attitudes toward Chinese Americans turned around in the early 20th Century, and one of the reasons for that was the growth of Chinese welfare charities of the sort other recent immigrant ethnic groups had in big cities prior to the advent of the welfare state. I guess the idea was that people respected groups that took care of their own.

    https://twitter.com/dpinsen/status/799545211437326336

    People also respect groups that have low crimes rates and low rates of social dysfunction. Asian on Asian shootings are extremely rare, unlike blacks shooting each other. And nobody is afraid to walk around Asian neighborhoods or have Asian neighbors.

    Read More
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  16. epebble says:

    I have my own theory; When Honda, Toyota etc., became popular household names (along with Sony, Toshiba etc.,) with the concurrent eclipse of brand image of GM, Ford, Chrysler, RCA, Zenith etc., opinions suddenly flipped. That and the constant news about AA’s filling up Harvard, Princeton, Yale, Stanford, Caltech etc., and seeing them in droves as doctors, engineers and scientists created a default positive preconception.

    Read More
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  17. Well, I suppose there’s also the little matter of U.S. Servicemen serially invading Japan, Korea, and Vietnam and acquiring exotic tastes (in all senses) along the way. Paradoxically, in the Invade/Invite paradigm the U.S. Empire acquires and assimilates parts of the cultures of the conquered peoples. (Of Course, this is not at all unusual as “curry” is said to be the most popular dish in Britain).

    Read More
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  18. Also, Asian-Americans prefer staid, boring names like Malcolm and Wesley, Kenneth and Michel(l)e, which are easier for us to say and spell than are Schaneequah and Tonnawonndah.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Milo Minderbinder
    Actual names of kids at my chess club

    White:

    Adam
    Morris
    Leonard
    Paul
    Ben

    Asian:

    Noah
    Andrew
    Paul
    Ethan
    Ryan

    Indian:

    Yashari
    Vamshi
    Dhirti

    Black:

    There are no black kids in our club.
    , @Jefferson
    "Also, Asian-Americans prefer staid, boring names like Malcolm and Wesley, Kenneth and Michel(l)e, which are easier for us to say and spell than are Schaneequah and Tonnawonndah."

    The Brady Bunch sang a song about Black women's names, it's called Shanahnahnahnahnahnahnahnah. It was the 1970s, so microaggression did not exist yet.

    , @Jefferson
    “Also, Asian-Americans prefer staid, boring names like Malcolm and Wesley, Kenneth and Michel(l)e, which are easier for us to say and spell than are Schaneequah and Tonnawonndah.”

    The Brady Bunch sang a song about Black women’s names, it’s called Shanananananananana. It was the 1970s, so microaggression did not exist yet.
    https://youtu.be/YEd2BDP6LoU
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  19. Anon says: • Disclaimer

    This article reads like the Irish Nguyen stuff about how Irish aren’t ‘racist’ against Asians but still are against blacks.

    http://www.unz.com/isteve/dean-van-nguyen-white-privilege-is-real-and-it-exists-in-ireland/

    But this is a double-edged sword.

    It is true that whites notice blackness more than yellowness. White feel more threatened by blackness. But also more fascinated and excited by blackness. So, there is more loathing but also more admiration, esp in sports, music, and sex.

    In contrast, Asians are ‘invisible’. Whites see Asian-ness as a nonentity. Given the two Seoul Brothers, Brothas Jay and Alvin who posture as honorary egg-Negrolls, it seems even Asians find Asian-ness too bland and dorky for identity. The fact that so many Asians get plastic surgeries(to look white) and ape rappers(to seem black and cool) would indicate that they too have no use for Asian-ness as an identity.

    So, in a way, greater white acceptance of yellowness as an invisibility could be seen as a different kind of ‘racism’. A ‘racism’ of indifference and benign neglect.
    It’s like humans will notice bears and wolves more than rabbits and pigeons. So, one could argue they are more wary of such predatory animals. Meanwhile, they are more accepting of pigeons and rabbits in human habitats. BUT, one could argue that humans also notice wolves and bears more due to greater fascination as out of fear. Sure, humans fear being mauled by bears or attacked by wolves, but they also respect the power of such animals. In contrast, humans hardly even notice pigeons and rabbits.

    The Irish case with Nguyen was instructive. It didn’t occur to the moron that, in some ways, the Irish are more admiring of Negroes than of Nguyens of the world. Indeed, the same could be said of Nguyen himself. How many Irish are interested in Vietnamese history, culture, music, sports, sex(unless it’s some me-so-horny whore in Saigon)? But plenty of Irish are into black sports and music. And some Irish women are into jungle fever. Indeed, judging by Nguyen’s own culture page, it seems 90% of his interest is rap and black culture. So, the Irish NOTICE blackness as something dangerous but also admirable, indeed admirable because of its danger quotient. In contrast, Irish accept Nguyen with yawning boredom because his dorky half-yellow butt is so dull and non-threatening.

    [MORE]

    Also, what we need is true race-ism, what I believe in, in order to understand reality.
    Race means race, ism means belief, and race + ism should mean belief in races and racial differences. And the fact is EVERYONE IS REALLY A RACE-IST since they notice race and racial differences all the time. Never mind what they say or consciously claim to believe due to PC training. The fact is they see race and racial differences in sports, music, streets, schools, neighborhoods, buses, sex industry, music, crime, and choice of mates. When a white woman goes off with a Negro, she is noticing the big negro. When a yellow woman goes off with white guy, she sees something superior to yellow geek. When whites listen to black music but blacks ignore white music, it means black music has more Power content. Is it any wonder that both whites and blacks have no use for yellow music? As Rock and Pop is all about instant-power, volume and intensity matter.
    And as David Cole said in a Taki column, lots of white people and Jews in Los Angeles prefer Mexicans(even illegal ones) to blacks because browns are smaller and commit less crime than big black thugs. They notice race.
    We see Jews dominant in brainy endeavors. We see blacks dominant in brawny endeavors. We see black bullying dominant in schools.
    And gentrification.. how can that not be about race?

    Is America race-ist? Yes. How can it not be race-ist when there are different races with racial differences that lead to different attitudes and behaviors?

    Also, Jeff Guo’s article only validates just another race-ist fact. Yellows tend to be servile, slavish, and unoriginal. And Guo’s piece is just one more PC tripe. It doesn’t expand the Narrative and certainly doesn’t challenge it. It’s the same crap. Yellows are such teachers pets who spew out the same crap drummed into their heads by professors and media overlords. This is why Asians entering journalism is terrible. As loyal servile dogs of PC, they will just bark according to command. Even as Asians bitch about ‘white racism’, all their ideas were put inside their skulls by white proggy professors.

    Everyone is a race-ist. The only difference is there are honest candid race-ists such as myself and disingenuous race-ists like most other people.
    In everything that people do — school, walking the streets, searching for sexual mates, and etc. — , there is a racial factor. People notice racial differences because they exist and are so obvious.

    Now, media can affect people’s views, but reality eventually comes around to disabuse of us our illusions. TV and movies present most street thugs as white, but most Americans know that blacks are more likely to be thugs. I mean it is so obvious.
    While there is the Asian geek stereotype, there is also the Asian martial arts kung fu mofo stereotype, and this ‘chinaman’ can whup 100 guys at once.
    There are tons of these movies, and Bruce Lee is one of the most famous icon. So is Jackie Chan. But based on school and street experience, most Americans don’t see Asians are invincible badass warriors. In reality, most Americans know Asians are not kung fu supermen.

    Btw, as long as these yellows keep bitching about white nations, do they ever ask themselves why they left their ancestral lands behind forever to come to live in the West? And why didn’t they choose non-white nations for destinations? Why were white nations their favored destinations? Isn’t that ‘racist’?

    And if Asian-ness is so important to them, why bring their kids to a place where their kids will lose language, lose identities, lose connection to their own peoples, have their kids(especially daughters) intermarry, and etc?
    Why do they bitch so much about what whites think about them when they must have pretty low opinions of their own kind to have left their homelands forever, abandoned their own identities, and hopefully marry with whites and have white-looking kids.

    One thing for sure… blacks were brought here by force. And American Indians were invaded by force. But Asians were not forced to come to white nations. They chose to flee their own kind. They rejected their own kind. They fled from their peoples and decided to say good bye to their tombs of their ancestors. They gave up their own cultures. They offered their kids to foreigners for marriage.
    So, why are they bitching about white attitudes about them when they don’t seem to even care for their own people and culture?

    As for the Model Minority thing, it’s an excuse trotted out over and over.
    The fact is it never mattered.

    The reason why Asians made rapid progress after WWII is because US became a rich nation. When people do better, they become more generous. Things were tough for most whites for most of US history even if US was a richer nation than most. Most Americans were not middle class until after WWII when a huge boom happened.
    As whites got richer, they just became mellower and nice. Full stomachs, freedom, and opportunities do that to a people. That’s why Civil Rights movement happened during the boom yrs. And since there was more for everyone in a full employment economy, Asians find their footing too during this time.

    Also, model minority cult or not, Asian norms were simply different from those of other groups. Why should this surprise us? All groups are different. Even among whites, Italian-Americans acted differently from Irish Americans who were different from Jewish Americans and Swedish-Americans. Even if the model minority thing had never existed, the results would have been the same.

    Asian Norm just isn’t very intense and threatening because they are a smaller people, less loud in voice, and less crazy in style. Indeed, even if Asians decided to act angry and put on Yellow Lives Matter protest, most people would be bored because they find Asians not very threatening or exciting.
    The funny thing is, even when Asians protest the ‘model minority’ cult, they do in such a Model Minority way. They remain well-mannered and act like they wanna discuss this issue over tea than act crazy and riot like Negroes and burn down cities. “Model minority idear no good. Chinese people not all hard working. Some lazy and stupid. Lookie out window. That guy have tattoo. He no go good college.” Yeah, sure.

    Another thing. This ‘model minority’ cult is now kept alive by Asians. I haven’t seen or heard a white person mention Asian Model Minority in ages.
    If anything, given the current trashy culture, blacks are seen as the New Model Minority cuz they can rap, dance, do sports, and hump everything in sight.

    Given that the New Morality is all about Victimhood, Blacks and whichever group that is most vocal in bitching(esp homos) and howling is considered the Most Model. Notice Trump bashes China, the land of industrious folks, but praises the Loud and Fearsome Negro.
    So, this Asian bitching about ‘Model Minority’ seems to be about their envy and resentment that they are not considered as part of the New Model Minority that favors blacks above other people.

    Asians may think this has to do with MLK and Civil Rights, and it does to some extent.
    But it’s really because reality is race-ist.
    As Sailer wrote in Plaques for Blacks, the white fascination and preference for blacks is racial. After all, American Indians, racial cousins of Asians, have a very compelling narrative of defeat and oppression, but whites no longer care about them — though, once in awhile, they make feel good-movies like DANCES WITH WOLVES(apparently because even wolves dance better than Indians).
    Asians get no respect because they are racially not as threatening as blacks are. That is the paradox of American moral politics. Whites fear blacks more, but the fear factor also fuels the greater fascination and admiration. Blacks dominate the streets as thugs but also the sports fields as heroes and gods to cucked out whites.

    http://takimag.com/article/plaques_for_blacks_steve_sailer/print#axzz4SD081Dmz

    “In contrast, white Americans used to take the complaints of American Indians more seriously. And indeed, Indians have much to legitimately gripe about regarding life on reservations such as Pine Ridge. But in recent years, as whites have become ever more amused by blacks, white concern for Indians has diminished. Native Americans, with their plodding dance rhythms, athletic stiffness, and lack of a gift of gab, have increasingly vanished from American consciousness. They now appear to strike whites less as noble and tragic than as depressing and tedious compared with those always entertaining blacks.”

    It’s like what the black guy says to Archie Bunker in this scene: “It’s all medicine.”

    When it comes to social reality, it is all race, and when one notices races, it is all race-ism. The question is, are you are a honest race-ist or true race-ist or a dishonest or disingenuous racist like most people?

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  20. HBD Guy says:

    We can never escape from the Blank Slate theory of human nature. It is the religion of the secular priesthood, for both conservatives and liberals.

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  21. Lagertha says:

    this is the strangest article I have ever read about race in the USA. I tutored some kids in NYC when I was in 2nd-4th grade. I think they thought I was a “magic Finn,” because I learned English in 4 months, could draw like a demon, and my cursive writing, in particular, (and my spelling ) was perfect. SO, I tutored Chinese/Vietnamese students, someone from S. America, and an Egyptian girl. Remind me to send the PS of NYC a bill!

    My take, in the melting pot of Brooklyn (my best friends were Greek, Lebanese & Irish) about Asians is: they were the first ones who were smart enough to make money off of New Yawkers (and others) by serving up barrels of Chinese food – their early “small business.” My parents always took us to Chinese restaurants the first 5 years we lived in the states. I always loved the magical interiors; the umbrellas in my Coke, and the “free” fortune cookies. I loved reading the fortunes – I still save the good ones I read!

    So, no, I think Chinese (one group of several Asian groups) were industrious; found that people would pay for their food, and got a toe-hold in the cities of of the USA. As restaurant owners, they could parlay that money into real estate and so on. The quickest way to get rich is through real estate.

    Much later, I found out that living alone was very safe in Chinatown or Little Italy. Their men (and women) protected you, and made sure no one broke into your apartment. To me, acceptance of Asians had more to do with the idea that they seemed to be hard workers and were loyal to their ethnic group. As an immigrant, I could identify that loyalty to your ethnic group. Asians figured out a way to prosper in the USA, by largely sticking together (initially) and sticking with their culture. I mean, there is no Finntown in Brooklyn anymore, but there is the giant Chinatown in NYC.

    I had several black friends (all middle class/professional class), and their parents thought I was also a “magic white person/the magic Finn, ” since I was so unaware of race. They were just like any of the parents at my neighborhood school in Brooklyn, and, I had no idea what American social history was really about after just 2-4 years here. Of course, this was way before the drugs that invaded NYC towards the end of Vietnam War. In my opinion, end of the Vietnam Wars/rise of the Hippie culture had a lot to do with the decay of urban areas. In fact, I remember all my Asian friends’ parents having tons of disdain for druggie American culture right through HS and college. And, both the prosperous blacks and whites ditched some areas of Brooklyn and moved to the suburbs….the Chinese congregated in Chinatown….or already held major real estate in Brooklyn. I wonder if “little India” still exists in the East Village? Does anyone of you know?

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    • Replies: @Anon
    It's there. But very tiny. Basically a slew of restaurants on E 8th St. Not sure how many actually love there. By 7th St. you're in Little Ukraine.
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  22. Trelane says:

    Basically, nobody has agency other than white people. Who are evil.

    Very true. Asians especially have no agency. They’re like Sulu on Star Trek. Tossed around at the whims of NBC and Paramont executives . No agency. And yes, white people are evil. Like Steve McQueen in the 1970s, dissipated, coked-out, casting young girls for nonexistant films in a rented bungalo in Hollywood while Ali McGraw wondered where he was. So yeah, the WP (Bezos’ blog) has a point here. Asians have no agency and whites are evil. I like it. Let’s write a screenplay.

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  23. Bugg says:

    If the evil white people are so racist and awful, why do progressives want to integrate schools and housing?And why is it the awful racist white people have not held back Asian academic achievement and affluence?

    As it happens, have had a number of Chinese clients. Not scientific, but they pool their money to help relatives to buy businesses and homes. They have figured out real estate and small scale cash business commerce coupled with education work out long term.

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    • Replies: @Forbes
    Koreans in NYC dominate the corner deli/convenience store biz with their own business development approach to pooling capital and financing entrepreneurs in the business.
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  24. Bill P says:

    Gee, can anyone think of a reason Americans became gradually less hostile to Asians after circa 1940? Wouldn’t have anything to do with them bombing us in 1941 and then learning a hard lesson, would it?

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    • Replies: @Lagertha
    Agree; but: It had more to do with the umbrellas in my father's Martinis and my Coca-Colas in the 60's in Chinese restaurants :)! Ok, spacing out again...so here's another fave, oh is this song the best...and the photos of Japanese stuff; priceless!
    https://youtu.be/RLQeb5NGt3E
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  25. At the outset of the 20th century, Asian Americans had often been portrayed as threatening, exotic and degenerate.

    Where I’m from, they were seen as these people who ran grocery stores in cotton towns and had their own Baptist churches.

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  26. HBD Guy says:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/07/us/immigration-dreamers-trump.html

    Trump Appears to Soften on Deporting Thousands of Young Immigrants

    WASHINGTON — President-elect Donald J. Trump on Wednesday appeared to soften his stance on whether to deport the more than 700,000 young people who entered the country illegally as children and were permitted to stay by President Obama.

    “We’re going to work something out that’s going to make people happy and proud,” Mr. Trump told Time magazine. “They got brought here at a very young age, they’ve worked here, they’ve gone to school here. Some were good students. Some have wonderful jobs. And they’re in never-never land because they don’t know what’s going to happen.”

    The immigrants, who call themselves Dreamers, are likely to present Mr. Trump with one of the first major policy tests of his administration, as his campaign promise to take a tough stance on immigration clashes with lawmakers from both parties on Capitol Hill who have implored Mr. Trump not to deny these young adults protective status.

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    • Replies: @Jack Hanson
    How many of these wishful thinking/ deliberate misinterpretation fake news articles has Slim's blog written in this vein now? Ten? Twenty?
    , @Forbes
    I second Jack Hanson's comment. The lapdog media generates fake news with wholesale speculations about future developments--part of writing The Narrative--they wouldn't know actual news if it hit them in the face.
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  27. Superman says:

    Nathaniel Hilger tweeted:

    “Hillary Clinton, I worship your grace under pressure.”

    https://mobile.twitter.com/nateg99/status/780600808807116800

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  28. So, let me see if I’m getting the gist of this story correct: Diabolical whites “allowed” Asians to move up the social and economic ladder in the 1960s because it helped us keep blacks down. We did this for no other reason than racism, even though it meant allowing another race to prosper and live amongst us. Oh yeah, we also began inter-marrying with that other race at extremely high rates but that was just part of evil plan to keep down blacks.

    Yep. That makes perfect sense. I don’t know how I didn’t see that before. It’s so obvious.

    You have to give the Post credit. They managed to talk about Asians while still keeping the discussion purely focused on blacks and whites. Well done, sir.

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  29. Arclight says:

    Right – obviously it’s racism because we all know that in places where people of Sub-Saharan ancestry and those of East Asian ancestry are the majority and run their own societies things have turned out so similarly.

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  30. Abe says: • Website

    And in non-bizarro world…

    I’ve been reading a lot of 20th Century history books lately and then looking up more details on Wikipedia. Like how seemingly most of the Imperial Japanese Navy general staff matriculated at the Ivies at one point or another before the War (Yamamoto himself went to Harvard) . Or how Madame Chiang Kai Shek grew up in Georgia, spoke with a sweet Southern belle accent the rest of her life, seduced Wendell Wilkie, etc. But think of how far she could have really gone but for white racism*! Similarly, look up any famous name in one of the turn-of-the-century East Asian nationalist movements and you’ll likely find someone who not just lived and studied in the US, but was the second or even third generation from his family to do so.

    * Derb always like to point out Madame Chiang is the only national leader to have ever called for the use of nuclear weapons against her own people (the ChiCom’s) so I guess Hillary’s got that going for her…

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    • Replies: @utu
    Read on Mao and Yale of China and on missionaries in Asia. Missionaries=NGO's before NGO's.
    , @colm
    Soong Mei-Ling, madame CKS, did more harm to American interest in Asia than any one else.

    America had no business fighting in Asia - but she hoodwinked Eleanor Roosevelt to help CKS's weak regime, and it made other Americans so sick that George Marshall sabotaged CKS's plans to crush the commies once for all in 1946, because America was simply sick about CKS and his wife.
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  31. Arclight says:
    @syonredux
    It's a bit curious, this burning desire that some Asian Americans have to prove that, no, really, we're actually just as unsuccessful as Blacks are.

    In our current age, everyone on the left is in a rush to identify with those they consider society’s biggest losers. Basically its a fashionable type of slumming.

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  32. George says:

    Just so the young’ns will know, Buddy Hackett was a comedian that was considered funny.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddy_Hackett

    For example:

    Buddy Hackett – Chinese Rock And Egg Roll

    The Chinese Waiter

    By 1970 Chinese were allowed to speak without an accent. But they still worked in their Ma and Pa Laundry business.

    Calgon Laundry Detergent ‘Ancient Chinese Secret’ commercial (1970′s)

    Did Shecky Greene do a Chinese accent?

    What every happened to the Ghost shadows and the Triads? When I was growing up Nicky Louie of the Ghost Shadows was sort of famous.

    The Triads Wikipedia page stops in the 20th century.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triad_(organized_crime)

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    • Replies: @Alec Leamas
    Glad that Buddy had a second act as SecDef under Obama.

    http://m.wsj.net/video/20141204/120414carter2/120414carter2_1280x720.jpg

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  33. @Reg Cæsar
    Also, Asian-Americans prefer staid, boring names like Malcolm and Wesley, Kenneth and Michel(l)e, which are easier for us to say and spell than are Schaneequah and Tonnawonndah.

    Actual names of kids at my chess club

    White:

    Adam
    Morris
    Leonard
    Paul
    Ben

    Asian:

    Noah
    Andrew
    Paul
    Ethan
    Ryan

    Indian:

    Yashari
    Vamshi
    Dhirti

    Black:

    There are no black kids in our club.

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    • Replies: @Formerly CARealist
    The white kids in my son's chess club are mostly Russian.

    Why don't Indian Americans choose Anglo names for their kids? Or even names that work in both languages?

    BTW, lots of Chinese kids have unpronounceable names. I'd say it's about 50/50 for a Chinese kid to be Xiomang or Jake.
    , @Reg Cæsar

    Dhirti
     
    I sure hope she doesn't marry a Sanchez!!
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  34. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Lagertha
    this is the strangest article I have ever read about race in the USA. I tutored some kids in NYC when I was in 2nd-4th grade. I think they thought I was a "magic Finn," because I learned English in 4 months, could draw like a demon, and my cursive writing, in particular, (and my spelling ) was perfect. SO, I tutored Chinese/Vietnamese students, someone from S. America, and an Egyptian girl. Remind me to send the PS of NYC a bill!

    My take, in the melting pot of Brooklyn (my best friends were Greek, Lebanese & Irish) about Asians is: they were the first ones who were smart enough to make money off of New Yawkers (and others) by serving up barrels of Chinese food - their early "small business." My parents always took us to Chinese restaurants the first 5 years we lived in the states. I always loved the magical interiors; the umbrellas in my Coke, and the "free" fortune cookies. I loved reading the fortunes - I still save the good ones I read!

    So, no, I think Chinese (one group of several Asian groups) were industrious; found that people would pay for their food, and got a toe-hold in the cities of of the USA. As restaurant owners, they could parlay that money into real estate and so on. The quickest way to get rich is through real estate.

    Much later, I found out that living alone was very safe in Chinatown or Little Italy. Their men (and women) protected you, and made sure no one broke into your apartment. To me, acceptance of Asians had more to do with the idea that they seemed to be hard workers and were loyal to their ethnic group. As an immigrant, I could identify that loyalty to your ethnic group. Asians figured out a way to prosper in the USA, by largely sticking together (initially) and sticking with their culture. I mean, there is no Finntown in Brooklyn anymore, but there is the giant Chinatown in NYC.

    I had several black friends (all middle class/professional class), and their parents thought I was also a "magic white person/the magic Finn, " since I was so unaware of race. They were just like any of the parents at my neighborhood school in Brooklyn, and, I had no idea what American social history was really about after just 2-4 years here. Of course, this was way before the drugs that invaded NYC towards the end of Vietnam War. In my opinion, end of the Vietnam Wars/rise of the Hippie culture had a lot to do with the decay of urban areas. In fact, I remember all my Asian friends' parents having tons of disdain for druggie American culture right through HS and college. And, both the prosperous blacks and whites ditched some areas of Brooklyn and moved to the suburbs....the Chinese congregated in Chinatown....or already held major real estate in Brooklyn. I wonder if "little India" still exists in the East Village? Does anyone of you know?

    It’s there. But very tiny. Basically a slew of restaurants on E 8th St. Not sure how many actually love there. By 7th St. you’re in Little Ukraine.

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    • Replies: @Lagertha
    Good to know. And, yes, the Indians never lived there...they loved Queens - I think it was a "space" issue....and backyards-private backyards.

    Warms my heart that Little Ukraine is still there! Ha! I went to the saunas there (women's hour saunas - and, shut-up, it's not what you think :)! in the 80's. The Ukrainians always were so proud of me (my people) that we were able to fight the Soviets and stay free...NYC was so wonderful in the 80's - miss it so much! - is that terrific Latke place there anymore? named after a woman - it was fantastic for breakfast/lunch or dinner, or really late night!

    When I go to NYC now, I don't "feel" that vibe anymore. The irony is: the Gen Xers (they were in HS when I was clubbing till the wee hours) I meet, here, in rural New England, have permanently left NYC because they must educate their adolescent children and can't afford to live in the City anymore. Studio space is excellent in the old mill towns of CT & MA. It is sort of heroiny, but $300-400/mth beats NYC/BKLN in a heart beat! And, they can actually, buy a house in our town.
    who remembers?
    https://youtu.be/SECVGN4Bsgg
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  35. benjaminl says:

    Fun fact: China has… guess how many naturalized citizens?

    http://www.economist.com/news/briefing/21710264-worlds-rising-superpower-has-particular-vision-ethnicity-and-nationhood-has

    Ethnicity is central to China’s national identity. It is the Han, 1.2bn of them in mainland China alone, that most people refer to as “Chinese”, rather than the country’s minorities, numbering 110m people. Ethnicity and nationality have become almost interchangeable for China’s Han, says James Leibold of La Trobe University in Melbourne, Australia. That conflation is of fundamental importance. It defines the relations between the Han and other ethnic groups. By narrowing its legal labour market almost entirely to people of Han descent, ethnicity is shaping the country’s economy and development…

    China today is extraordinarily homogenous. It sustains that by remaining almost entirely closed to new entrants except by birth. Unless someone is the child of a Chinese national, no matter how long they live there, how much money they make or tax they pay, it is virtually impossible to become a citizen. Someone who marries a Chinese person can theoretically gain citizenship; in practice few do. As a result, the most populous nation on Earth has only 1,448 naturalised Chinese in total, according to the 2010 census. Even Japan, better known for hostility to immigration, naturalises around 10,000 new citizens each year; in America the figure is some 700,000.

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    • Replies: @(((Owen)))

    As a result, the most populous nation on Earth has only 1,488 naturalised Chinese in total, according to the 2010 census.
     
    I wonder if they're trying to tell us something in code?
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  36. If it makes the Wapo feel any better, there is a large Vietnamese presence in my area and I have found most of them to be nasty, sneaky, dishonest people. And, contrary to popular opinion, not particularly intelligent.

    On the other hand, the few Chinese in my area tend to be polite, generous, and intelligent.

    Not all Asians should be lumped together.

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    • Replies: @G Pinfold
    I agree with your general point about variability of these populations.
    Where I live, Vietnamese, despite a rocky beginning, have leapfrogged many other groups into a de facto favoured immigrant status, and deservedly so in my opinion. They are, perhaps, to pure Han Chinese as Mediteraneans are to Northern Europeans. I get the impression that this is the view of the Chinese.
    But you could do a whole lot worse.
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  37. By the 1960s, anxieties about the civil right movement caused white Americans to further invest in positive portrayals of Asian Americans. The image of the hard-working Asian became an extremely convenient way to deny the demands of African Americans. As Wu describes in her book, both liberal and conservative politicians pumped up the image of Asian Americans as a way to shift the blame for black poverty. If Asians could find success within the system, politicians asked, why couldn’t African Americans?

    I doubt anyone reading the comments here needs this pointed out to them, but I find this rhetorical technique frustrating in the extreme. Specifically, rather than restating factual claims one disagrees with and explaining why those factual claims are false, factual claims are stated and then implied/stated to be “racist” and thus ipso facto false.

    For example, as in this article, I’ve often heard that there is a “narrative” that Asian-Americans are a “model minority” who supposedly “excel” in “education and the labor market”, and that their success “proves” that racism isn’t holding back other non-white groups. (Likewise for the narrative about blacks being more violent on average.) For some unknown reason, however, I never hear explanations of why this narrative is actually false .

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    • Agree: International Jew
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  38. Oh yes, the idea of the model minority only began to take root in the 1950s and 1960s. That’s why it’s so weird that Mark Twain wrote the following in Roughing It (1872):

    Of course there was a large Chinese population in Virginia–it is the case with every town and city on the Pacific coast. They are a harmless race when white men either let them alone or treat them no worse than dogs; in fact they are almost entirely harmless anyhow, for they seldom think of resenting the vilest insults or the cruelest injuries. They are quiet, peaceable, tractable, free from drunkenness, and they are as industrious as the day is long. A disorderly Chinaman is rare, and a lazy one does not exist. So long as a Chinaman has strength to use his hands he needs no support from anybody; white men often complain of want of work, but a Chinaman offers no such complaint; he always manages to find something to do….

    All Chinamen can read, write and cipher with easy facility–pity but all our petted voters could. In California they rent little patches of ground and do a deal of gardening. They will raise surprising crops of vegetables on a sand pile. They waste nothing. What is rubbish to a Christian, a Chinaman carefully preserves and makes useful in one way or another.

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    • Replies: @Thirdeye
    Tremendous resourcefulness, thrift, and ability to build social capital because of their deeply-ingrained community ethic. I honestly don't think anyone raised in a culture of western liberal individualism could do it.
    , @Formerly CARealist
    I remember that passage of what is one of my favorite books. I always thought it was a bit of propaganda. He compliments the Mormons on their clean living and hard work, but ridicules their religion. Why not ridicule the religion of the Chinese? Probably it would have been too foreign for him to try to understand.
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  39. syonredux says:
    @Dave Pinsen
    As Ed West noted in another context, World War II is about as far back as most observers go when looking at historical explanations, so they ignore stuff like the populist reaction to mass Chinese immigration in the late 19th Century (see Niall Ferguson drawing the parallels between that and Trumpism in the tweet below).

    I read in a college text book years ago that attitudes toward Chinese Americans turned around in the early 20th Century, and one of the reasons for that was the growth of Chinese welfare charities of the sort other recent immigrant ethnic groups had in big cities prior to the advent of the welfare state. I guess the idea was that people respected groups that took care of their own.

    https://twitter.com/dpinsen/status/799545211437326336

    MMM, well, Ferguson gets a few points for explaining that no, Trump isn’t Hitler and we are not experiencing Fascism redux. But then he loses points for actually recommending that anyone read Roth’s The Plot Against America. A terrible book, interesting only as an illustration of the Holocaust envy felt by certain American Jews…

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  40. Lot says:

    Speaking of modal minorities, Peru just elected a half-Ashkenazi/half French-Swiss president. Coming in a close second was full-blooded Japanese Keiko Fujimora.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedro_Pablo_Kuczynski

    PPK has a good sense of humor, he named his party Peruanos Por el Kambio so it would have his same initials. The proper Spanish spelling is “Cambio.” His politics is bland pro-American center right, which is nice to see considering the other elected governments in South America.

    Like Alberto Fujimora, PPK saw no need to marry into the mestizo majority, or even give his children Spanish names. His first wife was the daughter of a Massachusetts Irish-American congressman, and the second was from a small Wisconsin town. He went to school in England and named his children Carolina, Alex, John, and Suzanne.

    His Jewish brother-in-law won a Nobel prize in Medicine and was head of NIH, and his first cousin on his Swiss side is the very prolific French film writer-director Jean-Luc Goddard.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_E._Varmus

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Luc_Godard_filmography

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  41. syonredux says:
    @Anonymous
    The conventional wisdom on stereotypes resembles a conspiracy theory. Instead of stereotypes being formed organically as ordinary people notice trends, they are concocted by the media and politicians and the general public is brainwashed.

    The conventional wisdom on stereotypes resembles a conspiracy theory. Instead of stereotypes being formed organically as ordinary people notice trends, they are concocted by the media and politicians and the general public is brainwashed.

    In one of his books (The Blank Slate, I think) Pinker points out that stereotypes are simply a stylized model of reality. Hence, stereotypes can only exist if they are rooted in fact. So, back when Japanese products were bad, we had the stereotype about “Jap crap” (e.g., the crack in Woody Allen’s Sleeper about those damn Japanese flying packs). However, once Japanese products improved, the stereotype changed, and “Made in Japan” became a sign of quality.

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    • Replies: @Ron Mexico
    "Jap crap"
    Recall the Paul Revere Raiders song Indian Reservation (Cherokee People) with the lyrics, "And all the beads we made by hand
    Are nowadays made in Japan"

    Growing up in the late 70s I remember Made in Taiwan meant cheap and crappy
    , @Otto the P
    Think of stereotypes as market research. They reflect the distilled wisdom of billions of transactions between the parties. They re created only by reality--lots of reality. Four thousand years of reality.
    , @res

    Hence, stereotypes can only exist if they are rooted in fact. So, back when Japanese products were bad, we had the stereotype about “Jap crap” ... However, once Japanese products improved, the stereotype changed, and “Made in Japan” became a sign of quality.
     
    Worth noting that stereotypes also have time constants with respect to change. My recollection is the "Jap crap" stereotype was prevalent when Japanese products were becoming quite good. Any thoughts about the persistence of stereotypes in the face of contrary evidence?
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  42. @Yan Shen
    Did anti-Asian racism really decline? It seems like generally today it's permissible for all other ethnic groups to mock Asian Americans, i.e. Oscars Asian skit, etc. And Asian bashing in general, even amongst white liberals, seems to be par for the course.

    I've seen plenty of anti-Asian racism from white, black, and Hispanic Americans in equal measure, so hard for me to say that there's been a decline in anti-Asian racism as a whole.

    Well, it’s OK for POC to dis other POC, depending on their place in the victim ladder.
    And as much as I hate political correctness, I personally don’t feel as bad lampooning a successful group (WASPS, Jews, East Asians) than a truly sad and disadvantage bunch like the Native Americans.

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  43. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    Listen to or read economists Russ Roberts and Thomas Leonard get triggered for one hour about the horrible eugenicism and racism of the early progressive movement. (Transcript available)

    http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2016/12/thomas_leonard.html

    Much of this was not new to me as an avid iSteve reader, but there was something I haven’t seen before:

    Thomas Leonard: [...] As you know from reading the book, one of the main arguments argued in support of minimum wages during the ‘teens, a campaign led by progressive activists and progressive economists, was that if you fixed what we today call a binding minimum wage, you would disemploy idle, inferior workers. [...] So if you set a minimum wage high enough you’d make sure that the Jews and Catholics and Orthodox Christians from Southern and Eastern Europe were kept out; that the Asians, who were vilified as coolies were kept out;

    Isn’t that the Ron Unz strategy? ;-)

    Russ Roberts, quoting Richard Ely: American Manhood against Asiatic Coolieism, Which Shall Survive? If wages were determined by living standards rather than by productivity, then the meat-eating Anglo-Saxon could not compete with the Chinese worker accustomed to eating rice.

    The Chinese actually do have lower calorie intakes and they are more genetically adapted to grains. It is a legitimate concern that they have the edge over whites in times of food scarcity.

    Thomas Leonard: [...] A Darwinian is someone who looks at outcomes, and, in the jargon of social Darwinism says that those who survive are fittest in some sense. The eugenicist is making the opposite claim. The eugenicist is worried that those who are surviving who are outbreeding their hereditary betters need to be controlled. So, in some sense, though they both are species if you like of evolutionary thought applied to social and economic problems, eugenics starts with a very different premise–which is: The fittest are not surviving. Eugenics judges the races that are fitter ex ante, and that therefore the state must intervene to ensure that that is stopped

    The progressive eugenicists were just applied, pro-anglo Darwinians. But the only way to be an acceptable Darwinian today is to deliberately make no conscious effort to advance your own group’s evolutionary fitness.

    Thomas Leonard shames the progressives as weak, insecure anti-Darwinians who would not willingly subject themselves to the maximum of adverse conditions to prove their fitness.

    -
    Contrarian

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    It's a little bit like when you major in econ as an undergraduate, the professors tell you how wonderful competition is. But when you study corporate strategy in MBA school, the professors tell you awful competition is.
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  44. @benjaminl
    Fun fact: China has... guess how many naturalized citizens?

    http://www.economist.com/news/briefing/21710264-worlds-rising-superpower-has-particular-vision-ethnicity-and-nationhood-has

    Ethnicity is central to China’s national identity. It is the Han, 1.2bn of them in mainland China alone, that most people refer to as “Chinese”, rather than the country’s minorities, numbering 110m people. Ethnicity and nationality have become almost interchangeable for China’s Han, says James Leibold of La Trobe University in Melbourne, Australia. That conflation is of fundamental importance. It defines the relations between the Han and other ethnic groups. By narrowing its legal labour market almost entirely to people of Han descent, ethnicity is shaping the country’s economy and development...
     

    China today is extraordinarily homogenous. It sustains that by remaining almost entirely closed to new entrants except by birth. Unless someone is the child of a Chinese national, no matter how long they live there, how much money they make or tax they pay, it is virtually impossible to become a citizen. Someone who marries a Chinese person can theoretically gain citizenship; in practice few do. As a result, the most populous nation on Earth has only 1,448 naturalised Chinese in total, according to the 2010 census. Even Japan, better known for hostility to immigration, naturalises around 10,000 new citizens each year; in America the figure is some 700,000.
     

    As a result, the most populous nation on Earth has only 1,488 naturalised Chinese in total, according to the 2010 census.

    I wonder if they’re trying to tell us something in code?

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  45. @George
    Just so the young'ns will know, Buddy Hackett was a comedian that was considered funny.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddy_Hackett

    For example:

    Buddy Hackett - Chinese Rock And Egg Roll
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43nXGPP7Wd8

    The Chinese Waiter
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEA1NiZd1Mo

    By 1970 Chinese were allowed to speak without an accent. But they still worked in their Ma and Pa Laundry business.

    Calgon Laundry Detergent 'Ancient Chinese Secret' commercial (1970's)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ARuaI8wrHY

    Did Shecky Greene do a Chinese accent?

    What every happened to the Ghost shadows and the Triads? When I was growing up Nicky Louie of the Ghost Shadows was sort of famous.

    The Triads Wikipedia page stops in the 20th century.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triad_(organized_crime)

    Glad that Buddy had a second act as SecDef under Obama.

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  46. @Anonymous
    Listen to or read economists Russ Roberts and Thomas Leonard get triggered for one hour about the horrible eugenicism and racism of the early progressive movement. (Transcript available)

    http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2016/12/thomas_leonard.html

    Much of this was not new to me as an avid iSteve reader, but there was something I haven't seen before:

    Thomas Leonard: [...] As you know from reading the book, one of the main arguments argued in support of minimum wages during the 'teens, a campaign led by progressive activists and progressive economists, was that if you fixed what we today call a binding minimum wage, you would disemploy idle, inferior workers. [...] So if you set a minimum wage high enough you'd make sure that the Jews and Catholics and Orthodox Christians from Southern and Eastern Europe were kept out; that the Asians, who were vilified as coolies were kept out;
     
    Isn't that the Ron Unz strategy? ;-)

    Russ Roberts, quoting Richard Ely: American Manhood against Asiatic Coolieism, Which Shall Survive? If wages were determined by living standards rather than by productivity, then the meat-eating Anglo-Saxon could not compete with the Chinese worker accustomed to eating rice.
     
    The Chinese actually do have lower calorie intakes and they are more genetically adapted to grains. It is a legitimate concern that they have the edge over whites in times of food scarcity.

    Thomas Leonard: [...] A Darwinian is someone who looks at outcomes, and, in the jargon of social Darwinism says that those who survive are fittest in some sense. The eugenicist is making the opposite claim. The eugenicist is worried that those who are surviving who are outbreeding their hereditary betters need to be controlled. So, in some sense, though they both are species if you like of evolutionary thought applied to social and economic problems, eugenics starts with a very different premise--which is: The fittest are not surviving. Eugenics judges the races that are fitter ex ante, and that therefore the state must intervene to ensure that that is stopped
     
    The progressive eugenicists were just applied, pro-anglo Darwinians. But the only way to be an acceptable Darwinian today is to deliberately make no conscious effort to advance your own group's evolutionary fitness.

    Thomas Leonard shames the progressives as weak, insecure anti-Darwinians who would not willingly subject themselves to the maximum of adverse conditions to prove their fitness.

    -
    Contrarian

    It’s a little bit like when you major in econ as an undergraduate, the professors tell you how wonderful competition is. But when you study corporate strategy in MBA school, the professors tell you awful competition is.

    Read More
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  47. Svigor says:

    They might as well hire a skywriter to announce “Whites’ opinions of non-Whites are driven by non-Whites’ behavior.”

    I think if Jews started marrying Blacks – at least as often as they “intermarry” with Whites – that would be the most potent weapon in the fight against anti-black racism. As it stands, Jews marry Blacks at rates they find embarrassingly low; Jewish-leftist-bona-fides-contradictingly low. Jews have a golden opportunity to put their money where their mouths are.

    Well, Afghanistan is in Asia, isn’t it? You just have to switch to a British view of Asians (which specifically includes Jihadi-British) and the region starts looking less and less praiseworthy.

    I was thinking about the British view, recently. I think the American view makes more sense. Mongoloids are (or were, historically speaking) largely confined to Asia, while Caucasoids are not.

    But there’s also a lot to be said for keeping in mind how prominent race-mixing is in the populations in Asia, and how dismal most of the continent is. I also prefer “west Asia” to “Middle East,” or “Near East.”

    I guess the idea was that people respected groups that took care of their own.

    Cranking up the taxes on YT to pay for your people doesn’t count?

    Hollywood has been attempting to “elevate” Black characters for sometime now. It’s almost a stereotype in movies and TV with a ensemble casts having a Black actor playing a technical/computer/science wizard. For example Don Cheadle in the Ocean’s movies or Ving Rhames in the Mission Impossible movies. It doesn’t seem to have stuck in reality as the supposed Asian elevation. I guess they should try harder.

    It’s also worth mentioning that Hollywood has never been down on blacks. On the contrary, Hollywood has always taken blacks’ part.

    It seems like generally today it’s permissible for all other ethnic groups to mock Asian Americans

    Welcome to the club.

    HBD Guy says:
    December 8, 2016 at 2:17 am GMT • 200 Words

    If I were Trump, I’d definitely make a big show of dangling the “Dreamers,” (I guess we couldn’t find any do-ers?) as a carrot to get cucks in Congress on board. I’d dangle it until I got all my immigration policies signed into law.

    Yes, I realize I’m being generous.

    Read More
    • Replies: @snorlax

    It’s also worth mentioning that Hollywood has never been down on blacks. On the contrary, Hollywood has always taken blacks’ part.
     
    Oh, but you forget, a mere 101 years ago!
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  48. @syonredux
    It's a bit curious, this burning desire that some Asian Americans have to prove that, no, really, we're actually just as unsuccessful as Blacks are.

    You don’t have to prove you’re unsuccessful. You are. Caucasians have the highest IQs and creativity. Asians can only copy. If Asia and Europe had never interacted, Europe would have still developed into a high civilization. Japan, China, et al. would still be tending rice paddies.

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    • Replies: @Thirdeye

    If Asia and Europe had never interacted, Europe would have still developed into a high civilization. Japan, China, et al. would still be tending rice paddies.
     
    Or Europeans would still be trying to sail the oceans in glorified rowboats and shooting bows and arrows.

    BTW, Caucasians don't have the highest IQs.

    , @melendwyr
    You DO realize that China was the 'highest' civilization on Earth for centuries, right?
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  49. anon says: • Disclaimer

    The reason Asians do better than blacks is higher innate intelligence, and they assimilate MUCH faster than the majority of blacks ever could.

    Why is it we still have blacks who speak a step above a late nineteenth century georgian share cropper, or Mississippi gator tanner? Many blacks think speaking like a ‘hard is authentic. Yes, authentically stupid. I try not to waste my time with such people. It’s usually not of any benefit.

    Asians, on the other hand… when I was in the corporate world, I ran across assorted second generation Asians. They all assimilated. The chinese in particular, just because I was around them more, assimilated amazingly well.

    Let’s go over this again: it’s not about skin color, or external racial characteristics. I’m around tons of white people all the time, and NOT IN YEARS have I ever heard one white person go off about a black person, except when they’ve been victimized. I’ve never heard any “black jokes,” or any cheap shots. Just comments on foul behavior, and most of the whites I’m around hate bringing up that the perp was black, or at least don’t dwell on it.

    America’s continuing social dilemma is not about race. It’s about a retarded culture that won’t assimilate because they’re collectively too stupid, and not self-aware enough, which is a part of intelligence, to do so.

    The only time being black isn’t simply an incidental, is when stupid low-brow black people make it so that it cannot be an incidental.

    Nobody… fucking… cares.

    If you’re black and reasonably assimilated, you’re invited to the party. You can be first in line.

    If not, fuck off.

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  50. @syonredux

    The conventional wisdom on stereotypes resembles a conspiracy theory. Instead of stereotypes being formed organically as ordinary people notice trends, they are concocted by the media and politicians and the general public is brainwashed.
     
    In one of his books (The Blank Slate, I think) Pinker points out that stereotypes are simply a stylized model of reality. Hence, stereotypes can only exist if they are rooted in fact. So, back when Japanese products were bad, we had the stereotype about "Jap crap" (e.g., the crack in Woody Allen's Sleeper about those damn Japanese flying packs). However, once Japanese products improved, the stereotype changed, and "Made in Japan" became a sign of quality.

    “Jap crap”
    Recall the Paul Revere Raiders song Indian Reservation (Cherokee People) with the lyrics, “And all the beads we made by hand
    Are nowadays made in Japan”

    Growing up in the late 70s I remember Made in Taiwan meant cheap and crappy

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  51. utu says:
    @Abe
    And in non-bizarro world...

    I've been reading a lot of 20th Century history books lately and then looking up more details on Wikipedia. Like how seemingly most of the Imperial Japanese Navy general staff matriculated at the Ivies at one point or another before the War (Yamamoto himself went to Harvard) . Or how Madame Chiang Kai Shek grew up in Georgia, spoke with a sweet Southern belle accent the rest of her life, seduced Wendell Wilkie, etc. But think of how far she could have really gone but for white racism*! Similarly, look up any famous name in one of the turn-of-the-century East Asian nationalist movements and you'll likely find someone who not just lived and studied in the US, but was the second or even third generation from his family to do so.

    * Derb always like to point out Madame Chiang is the only national leader to have ever called for the use of nuclear weapons against her own people (the ChiCom's) so I guess Hillary's got that going for her...

    Read on Mao and Yale of China and on missionaries in Asia. Missionaries=NGO’s before NGO’s.

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  52. Jack D says:

    If journalism doesn’t work out, Mr. Guo could have a promising career ahead of him as a contortionist – he is really good at twisting things. William of Occam would have loved to take his razor to Guo’s pretzel logic.

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  53. snorlax says:
    @syonredux
    It's a bit curious, this burning desire that some Asian Americans have to prove that, no, really, we're actually just as unsuccessful as Blacks are.

    They want to get their treatment under affirmative action reversed.

    I half-support that endeavor; when Harvard stops taking any white people, who’d care about Harvard anymore?

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  54. snorlax says:
    @Svigor
    They might as well hire a skywriter to announce "Whites' opinions of non-Whites are driven by non-Whites' behavior."

    I think if Jews started marrying Blacks - at least as often as they "intermarry" with Whites - that would be the most potent weapon in the fight against anti-black racism. As it stands, Jews marry Blacks at rates they find embarrassingly low; Jewish-leftist-bona-fides-contradictingly low. Jews have a golden opportunity to put their money where their mouths are.

    Well, Afghanistan is in Asia, isn’t it? You just have to switch to a British view of Asians (which specifically includes Jihadi-British) and the region starts looking less and less praiseworthy.
     
    I was thinking about the British view, recently. I think the American view makes more sense. Mongoloids are (or were, historically speaking) largely confined to Asia, while Caucasoids are not.

    But there's also a lot to be said for keeping in mind how prominent race-mixing is in the populations in Asia, and how dismal most of the continent is. I also prefer "west Asia" to "Middle East," or "Near East."

    I guess the idea was that people respected groups that took care of their own.
     
    Cranking up the taxes on YT to pay for your people doesn't count?

    Hollywood has been attempting to “elevate” Black characters for sometime now. It’s almost a stereotype in movies and TV with a ensemble casts having a Black actor playing a technical/computer/science wizard. For example Don Cheadle in the Ocean’s movies or Ving Rhames in the Mission Impossible movies. It doesn’t seem to have stuck in reality as the supposed Asian elevation. I guess they should try harder.
     
    It's also worth mentioning that Hollywood has never been down on blacks. On the contrary, Hollywood has always taken blacks' part.

    It seems like generally today it’s permissible for all other ethnic groups to mock Asian Americans
     
    Welcome to the club.

    HBD Guy says:
    December 8, 2016 at 2:17 am GMT • 200 Words
     
    If I were Trump, I'd definitely make a big show of dangling the "Dreamers," (I guess we couldn't find any do-ers?) as a carrot to get cucks in Congress on board. I'd dangle it until I got all my immigration policies signed into law.

    Yes, I realize I'm being generous.

    It’s also worth mentioning that Hollywood has never been down on blacks. On the contrary, Hollywood has always taken blacks’ part.

    Oh, but you forget, a mere 101 years ago!

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  55. anon says: • Disclaimer
    @gman
    Off topic, but still related to race relations/immigration:

    Via chicago tribune: Discrimination suit alleges black temp workers passed over for Hispanics
    http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-discrimination-temporary-staffing-1207-biz-20161206-story.html

    Also, I found this stunning:
    A mother who fears are son may deported to Mexico believes that illegal immigrants from Central America should "go back to their land"

    "Teofila Montejo De La Cruz, a 72-year-old woman in Tenosique, worries her Los Angeles-based son will be deported under Trump, and wonders if he will be able to find a job in Mexico if he has to come back.

    Montejo has become known as a guardian angel for the Central American immigrants in Tenosique, giving them work in her restaurant and letting them sleep on the floor of her snack shop. But even she doesn’t believe large numbers of Central Americans should be able to stay permanently in Mexico.

    “At some point, they have to go back to their own land,” she said."



    http://www.latimes.com/world/mexico-americas/la-fg-mexico-central-america-immigrants-20161114-story.html

    Off topic, but still related to race relations/immigration:

    Via chicago tribune: Discrimination suit alleges black temp workers passed over for Hispanics

    http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-discrimination-temporary-staffing-1207-biz-20161206-story.html

    “Green said the pattern, based on the perception that blacks don’t want to work, is “clear-as-day racist” and unfairly applied to him even though “every time I walk into a temp agency I work my butt off. Green, who has eight kids, seven of whom live with him, said he lost faith in the temp industry and instead supports his family doing construction and other manual work for family members.”

    If you’re stupid and skeezy enough to be single with 8 kids and no job skill to keep you out of the temp market, I guarantee you’re too stupid and skeezy to work in a professional environment, and hispanics have NO patience for old timey negro ways. That is a fact.

    What I’ve kept repeating, and no progressive blacks want to hear–I know because I’ve said this to a number of black friends, and they find it inconceivable–many hispanics don’t like american blacks. Not because of their skin color, but because of their shitty old timey negro culture. And they will confront black folks who give them a hard time with it, and they will win the debate/fight/contest more often than not, one way or another.

    Great idea voting for Obama, and good luck with your new Hispanic Overlords.

    You’ll need it. They hate you.

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  56. Veracitor says:

    African Americans in the 1940s made very similar appeals. But in the postwar moment, Wu argues, it was only convenient for political leaders to hear the Asian voices.

    Right, like that bigot Truman who refused to desegregate the Army, and those racists on the Supreme Court who ruled that whites and blacks should attend separate schools and colleges forever, and that hatemonger Eisenhower who sent Federal troops to keep blacks out of Southern classrooms. None of them could hear any black voices thanks to the din of asian voices filling their ears.

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  57. Lagertha says:
    @Anon
    It's there. But very tiny. Basically a slew of restaurants on E 8th St. Not sure how many actually love there. By 7th St. you're in Little Ukraine.

    Good to know. And, yes, the Indians never lived there…they loved Queens – I think it was a “space” issue….and backyards-private backyards.

    Warms my heart that Little Ukraine is still there! Ha! I went to the saunas there (women’s hour saunas – and, shut-up, it’s not what you think :)! in the 80′s. The Ukrainians always were so proud of me (my people) that we were able to fight the Soviets and stay free…NYC was so wonderful in the 80′s – miss it so much! – is that terrific Latke place there anymore? named after a woman – it was fantastic for breakfast/lunch or dinner, or really late night!

    When I go to NYC now, I don’t “feel” that vibe anymore. The irony is: the Gen Xers (they were in HS when I was clubbing till the wee hours) I meet, here, in rural New England, have permanently left NYC because they must educate their adolescent children and can’t afford to live in the City anymore. Studio space is excellent in the old mill towns of CT & MA. It is sort of heroiny, but $300-400/mth beats NYC/BKLN in a heart beat! And, they can actually, buy a house in our town.
    who remembers?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anon

    Warms my heart that Little Ukraine is still there! Ha! I went to the saunas there (women’s hour saunas – and, shut-up, it’s not what you think :)! in the 80′s. The Ukrainians always were so proud of me (my people) that we were able to fight the Soviets and stay free…NYC was so wonderful in the 80′s – miss it so much! – is that terrific Latke place there anymore? named after a woman – it was fantastic for breakfast/lunch or dinner, or really late night!
     
    Remember The Kiev on 2nd ave? They're still there!

    In the eighties, I'd go to "The World" in the east village, hang till 2:00 am, wander
    over to "I, Robot", which opened around 3 am, danced till 5 am, and went to
    the Kiev for their french toast. New York was great back then.

    That New York is gone for good. I was spoiled. Didn't know how great I had it. I lived in manhattan, right in the middle of everything. Kids can't afford that now.

    I kind of feel sorry for millennials. So many things I enjoyed that they'll never get to enjoy. Most make barely enough to live in a shithole outside the city.

    And yet they still fight for their right for their lives to suck.

    "not my president," indeed.
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  58. Georg E says:
    @Yan Shen
    Did anti-Asian racism really decline? It seems like generally today it's permissible for all other ethnic groups to mock Asian Americans, i.e. Oscars Asian skit, etc. And Asian bashing in general, even amongst white liberals, seems to be par for the course.

    I've seen plenty of anti-Asian racism from white, black, and Hispanic Americans in equal measure, so hard for me to say that there's been a decline in anti-Asian racism as a whole.

    I find this observation curious. It’s hard to tell what would constitute anti-Asian “racism”. An Asian (born in US) colleague observed that she had spent a year north of Seattle near the Canadian border and would never return because of the racism. I asked her what had happened. She said that upon a visit to a mountain valley village she had been complimented on how well she spoke English. That was it. Apparently, it was too much to handle. I wasn’t so convinced that this actually constituted racism. That was much better than the treatment I experienced as a German speaking white fellow in Austria, where my German questions were answered in English. In case I was left with any doubt, I was usually informed that my German was wanting. This wasn’t racism, just rudeness. But what do I know? Maybe you mean incidents like the time some Morro Bay hick screamed out and called me a faggot while I was walking my dogs through his town, or when some random Central American immigrant spat at me when I smiled a greeting at him on the streets of Portland. These things happen all the time. It’s not racism, just humans being rude.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Harry Baldwin
    I have a Japanese-American friend who is very successful but nevertheless considers himself a victim of racism. He lives in Manhattan. The example he frequently cites of the racism he suffers is that tourists who stop him to ask directions occasionally first ask if he speaks English.
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  59. Q: What is the ultimate goal of Progressivism?

    A: The ultimate goal of Progressivism is to make whites a despised and demoralized minority everywhere they live.

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  60. “Basically, nobody has agency other than white people. Who are evil.”

    This makes me feel better about myself. I’m evil, but I’m superior to minorities because I am like God (and the Devil) while they are like animals — innocent but subhuman.

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  61. Lagertha says:
    @Bill P
    Gee, can anyone think of a reason Americans became gradually less hostile to Asians after circa 1940? Wouldn't have anything to do with them bombing us in 1941 and then learning a hard lesson, would it?

    Agree; but: It had more to do with the umbrellas in my father’s Martinis and my Coca-Colas in the 60′s in Chinese restaurants :)! Ok, spacing out again…so here’s another fave, oh is this song the best…and the photos of Japanese stuff; priceless!

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  62. Jefferson says:
    @Reg Cæsar
    Also, Asian-Americans prefer staid, boring names like Malcolm and Wesley, Kenneth and Michel(l)e, which are easier for us to say and spell than are Schaneequah and Tonnawonndah.

    “Also, Asian-Americans prefer staid, boring names like Malcolm and Wesley, Kenneth and Michel(l)e, which are easier for us to say and spell than are Schaneequah and Tonnawonndah.”

    The Brady Bunch sang a song about Black women’s names, it’s called Shanahnahnahnahnahnahnahnah. It was the 1970s, so microaggression did not exist yet.

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  63. Jefferson says:
    @Reg Cæsar
    Also, Asian-Americans prefer staid, boring names like Malcolm and Wesley, Kenneth and Michel(l)e, which are easier for us to say and spell than are Schaneequah and Tonnawonndah.

    “Also, Asian-Americans prefer staid, boring names like Malcolm and Wesley, Kenneth and Michel(l)e, which are easier for us to say and spell than are Schaneequah and Tonnawonndah.”

    The Brady Bunch sang a song about Black women’s names, it’s called Shanananananananana. It was the 1970s, so microaggression did not exist yet.

    https://youtu.be/YEd2BDP6LoU

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  64. Lagertha says:
    1676109

    crap, could not get Pig Bag’s song on…is it a 1/I/l/???? youtube sometimes just annoys me.

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  65. @HBD Guy
    http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/07/us/immigration-dreamers-trump.html

    Trump Appears to Soften on Deporting Thousands of Young Immigrants

    WASHINGTON — President-elect Donald J. Trump on Wednesday appeared to soften his stance on whether to deport the more than 700,000 young people who entered the country illegally as children and were permitted to stay by President Obama.

    “We’re going to work something out that’s going to make people happy and proud,” Mr. Trump told Time magazine. “They got brought here at a very young age, they’ve worked here, they’ve gone to school here. Some were good students. Some have wonderful jobs. And they’re in never-never land because they don’t know what’s going to happen.”

    The immigrants, who call themselves Dreamers, are likely to present Mr. Trump with one of the first major policy tests of his administration, as his campaign promise to take a tough stance on immigration clashes with lawmakers from both parties on Capitol Hill who have implored Mr. Trump not to deny these young adults protective status.

    How many of these wishful thinking/ deliberate misinterpretation fake news articles has Slim’s blog written in this vein now? Ten? Twenty?

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  66. @syonredux

    The conventional wisdom on stereotypes resembles a conspiracy theory. Instead of stereotypes being formed organically as ordinary people notice trends, they are concocted by the media and politicians and the general public is brainwashed.
     
    In one of his books (The Blank Slate, I think) Pinker points out that stereotypes are simply a stylized model of reality. Hence, stereotypes can only exist if they are rooted in fact. So, back when Japanese products were bad, we had the stereotype about "Jap crap" (e.g., the crack in Woody Allen's Sleeper about those damn Japanese flying packs). However, once Japanese products improved, the stereotype changed, and "Made in Japan" became a sign of quality.

    Think of stereotypes as market research. They reflect the distilled wisdom of billions of transactions between the parties. They re created only by reality–lots of reality. Four thousand years of reality.

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  67. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Lagertha
    Good to know. And, yes, the Indians never lived there...they loved Queens - I think it was a "space" issue....and backyards-private backyards.

    Warms my heart that Little Ukraine is still there! Ha! I went to the saunas there (women's hour saunas - and, shut-up, it's not what you think :)! in the 80's. The Ukrainians always were so proud of me (my people) that we were able to fight the Soviets and stay free...NYC was so wonderful in the 80's - miss it so much! - is that terrific Latke place there anymore? named after a woman - it was fantastic for breakfast/lunch or dinner, or really late night!

    When I go to NYC now, I don't "feel" that vibe anymore. The irony is: the Gen Xers (they were in HS when I was clubbing till the wee hours) I meet, here, in rural New England, have permanently left NYC because they must educate their adolescent children and can't afford to live in the City anymore. Studio space is excellent in the old mill towns of CT & MA. It is sort of heroiny, but $300-400/mth beats NYC/BKLN in a heart beat! And, they can actually, buy a house in our town.
    who remembers?
    https://youtu.be/SECVGN4Bsgg

    Warms my heart that Little Ukraine is still there! Ha! I went to the saunas there (women’s hour saunas – and, shut-up, it’s not what you think :)! in the 80′s. The Ukrainians always were so proud of me (my people) that we were able to fight the Soviets and stay free…NYC was so wonderful in the 80′s – miss it so much! – is that terrific Latke place there anymore? named after a woman – it was fantastic for breakfast/lunch or dinner, or really late night!

    Remember The Kiev on 2nd ave? They’re still there!

    In the eighties, I’d go to “The World” in the east village, hang till 2:00 am, wander
    over to “I, Robot”, which opened around 3 am, danced till 5 am, and went to
    the Kiev for their french toast. New York was great back then.

    That New York is gone for good. I was spoiled. Didn’t know how great I had it. I lived in manhattan, right in the middle of everything. Kids can’t afford that now.

    I kind of feel sorry for millennials. So many things I enjoyed that they’ll never get to enjoy. Most make barely enough to live in a shithole outside the city.

    And yet they still fight for their right for their lives to suck.

    “not my president,” indeed.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    I remember the Kiev. It also got mentioned in King Missile's one hit.


    https://youtu.be/byDiILrNbM4
    , @Lagertha
    Yes. I miss that NYC, too. I lived in mid-town in a brownstone walk-up.....it was just $500/each a month/one bedroom with fireplace! - had a terrific room-mate; we ate at The Frontier often, near our apt. My job was in Soho, so I walked to work often. We hit Danceteria a lot....King Tut's. We also went to Pyramid and Area, too. I went to Studio 54 when in HS! - and CBGB/Mudd...

    I know; what a bummer for the Millennials. That NYC is totally gone. And, the wild and fun people from all creative backgrounds have disappeared. There is no vibe in NYC anymore as far as 80's craziness. I saw that by the late 80's, so many Wall Streeters and lawyers started buying up refurbished apartments in lower Manhattan; that always signals "change is coming." It makes me angry that whenever creative types find a great place to live, the corporate types want to be there, too. So, it was corporate gentrification that pushed the artists out. I remember noticing an awful lot of suits coming to places like Area; King Tut's and Pyramid were a bit too much for them (trannies and all) ...but developers just bought-up all of Lower East Side...and it was all over in 10 years. I guess we should be happy that there aren't so many bums in Lower Manhattan anymore, or some smelly streets with crummy storefronts.

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  68. Jefferson says:
    @Yan Shen
    Did anti-Asian racism really decline? It seems like generally today it's permissible for all other ethnic groups to mock Asian Americans, i.e. Oscars Asian skit, etc. And Asian bashing in general, even amongst white liberals, seems to be par for the course.

    I've seen plenty of anti-Asian racism from white, black, and Hispanic Americans in equal measure, so hard for me to say that there's been a decline in anti-Asian racism as a whole.

    “Did anti-Asian racism really decline? It seems like generally today it’s permissible for all other ethnic groups to mock Asian Americans, i.e. Oscars Asian skit, etc.”

    Chris Rock poking fun of Asians is not racism because Blacks are not capable of being racist. As an Asian didn’t they tell you that at your last Coalition Of The Fringes meeting? I know all of you Asians attend those meetings.

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  69. Thirdeye says:
    @attilathehen
    You don't have to prove you're unsuccessful. You are. Caucasians have the highest IQs and creativity. Asians can only copy. If Asia and Europe had never interacted, Europe would have still developed into a high civilization. Japan, China, et al. would still be tending rice paddies.

    If Asia and Europe had never interacted, Europe would have still developed into a high civilization. Japan, China, et al. would still be tending rice paddies.

    Or Europeans would still be trying to sail the oceans in glorified rowboats and shooting bows and arrows.

    BTW, Caucasians don’t have the highest IQs.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Lurker

    Or Europeans would still be trying to sail the oceans in glorified rowboats and shooting bows and arrows.
     
    Right, because Europeans never figured out how to build ocean going sailing ships on their own. . .
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  70. Dennis Dale says: • Website

    By the 1960s, anxieties about the civil right movement caused white Americans to further invest in positive portrayals of Asian Americans.

    Those same anxieties led to investment in positive portrayals of black Americans.

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  71. Thirdeye says:
    @Harry Baldwin
    Oh yes, the idea of the model minority only began to take root in the 1950s and 1960s. That's why it's so weird that Mark Twain wrote the following in Roughing It (1872):

    Of course there was a large Chinese population in Virginia--it is the case with every town and city on the Pacific coast. They are a harmless race when white men either let them alone or treat them no worse than dogs; in fact they are almost entirely harmless anyhow, for they seldom think of resenting the vilest insults or the cruelest injuries. They are quiet, peaceable, tractable, free from drunkenness, and they are as industrious as the day is long. A disorderly Chinaman is rare, and a lazy one does not exist. So long as a Chinaman has strength to use his hands he needs no support from anybody; white men often complain of want of work, but a Chinaman offers no such complaint; he always manages to find something to do....

    All Chinamen can read, write and cipher with easy facility--pity but all our petted voters could. In California they rent little patches of ground and do a deal of gardening. They will raise surprising crops of vegetables on a sand pile. They waste nothing. What is rubbish to a Christian, a Chinaman carefully preserves and makes useful in one way or another.
     

    Tremendous resourcefulness, thrift, and ability to build social capital because of their deeply-ingrained community ethic. I honestly don’t think anyone raised in a culture of western liberal individualism could do it.

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  72. G Pinfold says:
    @Mis(ter)Anthrope
    If it makes the Wapo feel any better, there is a large Vietnamese presence in my area and I have found most of them to be nasty, sneaky, dishonest people. And, contrary to popular opinion, not particularly intelligent.

    On the other hand, the few Chinese in my area tend to be polite, generous, and intelligent.

    Not all Asians should be lumped together.

    I agree with your general point about variability of these populations.
    Where I live, Vietnamese, despite a rocky beginning, have leapfrogged many other groups into a de facto favoured immigrant status, and deservedly so in my opinion. They are, perhaps, to pure Han Chinese as Mediteraneans are to Northern Europeans. I get the impression that this is the view of the Chinese.
    But you could do a whole lot worse.

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    • Replies: @Mis(ter)Anthrope
    They are, perhaps, to pure Han Chinese as Mediteraneans are to Northern Europeans.


    Seems like a pretty sound analogy.
    , @M
    The simpler analogy might be that the Vietnamese are to Chinese as the Armenians are to the Greeks. You'd need to be deep north into Russian Siberia to find any Asians you could take as equivalent to Northern Europeans.
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  73. Bartolo says:

    Excellent narrative, very convincing! Now we only need to find parallel chains of events and circumstances that explain why Asians excell not only in the US, but in any country they go to. I am sure different sets of reasons leading to exactly the same result can be seen everywhere!

    Read More
    • Replies: @res
    Not to worry. We can always add more epicycles!
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  74. Dave Pinsen says: • Website
    @Anon

    Warms my heart that Little Ukraine is still there! Ha! I went to the saunas there (women’s hour saunas – and, shut-up, it’s not what you think :)! in the 80′s. The Ukrainians always were so proud of me (my people) that we were able to fight the Soviets and stay free…NYC was so wonderful in the 80′s – miss it so much! – is that terrific Latke place there anymore? named after a woman – it was fantastic for breakfast/lunch or dinner, or really late night!
     
    Remember The Kiev on 2nd ave? They're still there!

    In the eighties, I'd go to "The World" in the east village, hang till 2:00 am, wander
    over to "I, Robot", which opened around 3 am, danced till 5 am, and went to
    the Kiev for their french toast. New York was great back then.

    That New York is gone for good. I was spoiled. Didn't know how great I had it. I lived in manhattan, right in the middle of everything. Kids can't afford that now.

    I kind of feel sorry for millennials. So many things I enjoyed that they'll never get to enjoy. Most make barely enough to live in a shithole outside the city.

    And yet they still fight for their right for their lives to suck.

    "not my president," indeed.

    I remember the Kiev. It also got mentioned in King Missile’s one hit.

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  75. Lagertha says:
    @Anon

    Warms my heart that Little Ukraine is still there! Ha! I went to the saunas there (women’s hour saunas – and, shut-up, it’s not what you think :)! in the 80′s. The Ukrainians always were so proud of me (my people) that we were able to fight the Soviets and stay free…NYC was so wonderful in the 80′s – miss it so much! – is that terrific Latke place there anymore? named after a woman – it was fantastic for breakfast/lunch or dinner, or really late night!
     
    Remember The Kiev on 2nd ave? They're still there!

    In the eighties, I'd go to "The World" in the east village, hang till 2:00 am, wander
    over to "I, Robot", which opened around 3 am, danced till 5 am, and went to
    the Kiev for their french toast. New York was great back then.

    That New York is gone for good. I was spoiled. Didn't know how great I had it. I lived in manhattan, right in the middle of everything. Kids can't afford that now.

    I kind of feel sorry for millennials. So many things I enjoyed that they'll never get to enjoy. Most make barely enough to live in a shithole outside the city.

    And yet they still fight for their right for their lives to suck.

    "not my president," indeed.

    Yes. I miss that NYC, too. I lived in mid-town in a brownstone walk-up…..it was just $500/each a month/one bedroom with fireplace! – had a terrific room-mate; we ate at The Frontier often, near our apt. My job was in Soho, so I walked to work often. We hit Danceteria a lot….King Tut’s. We also went to Pyramid and Area, too. I went to Studio 54 when in HS! – and CBGB/Mudd…

    I know; what a bummer for the Millennials. That NYC is totally gone. And, the wild and fun people from all creative backgrounds have disappeared. There is no vibe in NYC anymore as far as 80′s craziness. I saw that by the late 80′s, so many Wall Streeters and lawyers started buying up refurbished apartments in lower Manhattan; that always signals “change is coming.” It makes me angry that whenever creative types find a great place to live, the corporate types want to be there, too. So, it was corporate gentrification that pushed the artists out. I remember noticing an awful lot of suits coming to places like Area; King Tut’s and Pyramid were a bit too much for them (trannies and all) …but developers just bought-up all of Lower East Side…and it was all over in 10 years. I guess we should be happy that there aren’t so many bums in Lower Manhattan anymore, or some smelly streets with crummy storefronts.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Forbes
    And crime is down ~75%--so there's that trade-off. The era you refer to is fondly called pre-Giuliani--I've a scar from a street mugging that required 200 stitches to close up. I think the trade-off was worth it.

    You needn't worry that smelly streets and crummy storefronts have completely disappeared from the LES--it's what most of the hipsters want preserved. Except now they pay good money to live amongst the filth.
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  76. @Georg E
    I find this observation curious. It's hard to tell what would constitute anti-Asian "racism". An Asian (born in US) colleague observed that she had spent a year north of Seattle near the Canadian border and would never return because of the racism. I asked her what had happened. She said that upon a visit to a mountain valley village she had been complimented on how well she spoke English. That was it. Apparently, it was too much to handle. I wasn't so convinced that this actually constituted racism. That was much better than the treatment I experienced as a German speaking white fellow in Austria, where my German questions were answered in English. In case I was left with any doubt, I was usually informed that my German was wanting. This wasn't racism, just rudeness. But what do I know? Maybe you mean incidents like the time some Morro Bay hick screamed out and called me a faggot while I was walking my dogs through his town, or when some random Central American immigrant spat at me when I smiled a greeting at him on the streets of Portland. These things happen all the time. It's not racism, just humans being rude.

    I have a Japanese-American friend who is very successful but nevertheless considers himself a victim of racism. He lives in Manhattan. The example he frequently cites of the racism he suffers is that tourists who stop him to ask directions occasionally first ask if he speaks English.

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    • Replies: @guest
    That's why "racism" is a dumb term. It honestly refers to both people hanging innocents without benefit of trial and simple Noticing (that, for instance, people who look Japanese often don't speak English; sometimes they only speak...Japanese).
    , @Captain Tripps
    How odd. In the subsection (Manhattan) of a town called New YORK, named so by a band of Englishmen (admittedly after taking it by threat of force from the Dutch) from, you know, England, as a tribute to the Duke of YORK, another Englishman, they actually desire you to speak English. I think I've been triggered. Or possibly microaggressed.
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  77. guest says:
    @syonredux
    It's a bit curious, this burning desire that some Asian Americans have to prove that, no, really, we're actually just as unsuccessful as Blacks are.

    It’s only curious when you don’t “get” PC. PC is like the Nothing from Neverending Story. It eats everything, including the self-worth of Asians.

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  78. @fnn
    https://twitter.com/RobProvince/status/806531162302771201

    Why Trump won in 2 Acts: pic.twitter.com/W6Y7tywVX2— EducatédHillbilly™ (@RobProvince) December 7, 2016
     

    To a son of the Heartland, it is obvious why a Heartland Governor has valuable experience with the crop-buying and manufacturing-developing Chinese. Millhiser’s just some beltway-thinktank-dope without any real experience.

    So, yes, why Trump won indeed.

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  79. guest says:

    I love how am article about why we white Americans became less racist against Asians turns out to be so much about blacks. Which isn’t surprising, since blacks are the kangz of the diversity lottery. Of course, they’re right about Asians being the Model Minority, and about badwhites using them as counterexamples. But you got your Civil Rights Movement anyway, didn’t you? You won, what are you still complaining about?

    As people grew less racist against Asians they did the same against blacks. Only morons and ignoramuses think otherwise. Why do you think you got your Civil Rights? And why was I told the story of the great Movement from infancy like it was the Second Coming? Ah, but blacks still suck at life, while Asians–or East Asians–are better at it. Therefore, blacks must be racisted against, QED.

    Instead of inquiring about blacks and Asians themselves to find things out regarding their differential successes, why not make up stories about white people’s differential perceptions? Ignoring their perverse love affair with “black bodies” in the process. That’s easier.

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  80. guest says:
    @Harry Baldwin
    I have a Japanese-American friend who is very successful but nevertheless considers himself a victim of racism. He lives in Manhattan. The example he frequently cites of the racism he suffers is that tourists who stop him to ask directions occasionally first ask if he speaks English.

    That’s why “racism” is a dumb term. It honestly refers to both people hanging innocents without benefit of trial and simple Noticing (that, for instance, people who look Japanese often don’t speak English; sometimes they only speak…Japanese).

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  81. res says:
    @syonredux

    The conventional wisdom on stereotypes resembles a conspiracy theory. Instead of stereotypes being formed organically as ordinary people notice trends, they are concocted by the media and politicians and the general public is brainwashed.
     
    In one of his books (The Blank Slate, I think) Pinker points out that stereotypes are simply a stylized model of reality. Hence, stereotypes can only exist if they are rooted in fact. So, back when Japanese products were bad, we had the stereotype about "Jap crap" (e.g., the crack in Woody Allen's Sleeper about those damn Japanese flying packs). However, once Japanese products improved, the stereotype changed, and "Made in Japan" became a sign of quality.

    Hence, stereotypes can only exist if they are rooted in fact. So, back when Japanese products were bad, we had the stereotype about “Jap crap” … However, once Japanese products improved, the stereotype changed, and “Made in Japan” became a sign of quality.

    Worth noting that stereotypes also have time constants with respect to change. My recollection is the “Jap crap” stereotype was prevalent when Japanese products were becoming quite good. Any thoughts about the persistence of stereotypes in the face of contrary evidence?

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    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    What's striking is watching obsolete stereotypes like White Privilege and White Racism be revived.
    , @syonredux

    Worth noting that stereotypes also have time constants with respect to change. My recollection is the “Jap crap” stereotype was prevalent when Japanese products were becoming quite good. Any thoughts about the persistence of stereotypes in the face of contrary evidence?
     
    It takes a while for stereotypes to adjust to new evidence. By the early '80s, the stereotype on Japanese products had completely flipped.
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  82. res says:
    @Bartolo
    Excellent narrative, very convincing! Now we only need to find parallel chains of events and circumstances that explain why Asians excell not only in the US, but in any country they go to. I am sure different sets of reasons leading to exactly the same result can be seen everywhere!

    Not to worry. We can always add more epicycles!

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  83. Lurker says:

    But of course as 99% of billionaires would tell you, we now know that the Law of Supply and Demand doesn’t apply to immigration because reasons.

    100% of liberals are convinced of the same thing. It also has no connection to all sorts of other boring stuff that no intelligent person should spend any time being concerned about. Housing, infrastructure, education *yawn*.

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  84. Lurker says:
    @Thirdeye

    If Asia and Europe had never interacted, Europe would have still developed into a high civilization. Japan, China, et al. would still be tending rice paddies.
     
    Or Europeans would still be trying to sail the oceans in glorified rowboats and shooting bows and arrows.

    BTW, Caucasians don't have the highest IQs.

    Or Europeans would still be trying to sail the oceans in glorified rowboats and shooting bows and arrows.

    Right, because Europeans never figured out how to build ocean going sailing ships on their own. . .

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  85. @Milo Minderbinder
    Actual names of kids at my chess club

    White:

    Adam
    Morris
    Leonard
    Paul
    Ben

    Asian:

    Noah
    Andrew
    Paul
    Ethan
    Ryan

    Indian:

    Yashari
    Vamshi
    Dhirti

    Black:

    There are no black kids in our club.

    The white kids in my son’s chess club are mostly Russian.

    Why don’t Indian Americans choose Anglo names for their kids? Or even names that work in both languages?

    BTW, lots of Chinese kids have unpronounceable names. I’d say it’s about 50/50 for a Chinese kid to be Xiomang or Jake.

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    • Replies: @syonredux

    Why don’t Indian Americans choose Anglo names for their kids? Or even names that work in both languages?

    BTW, lots of Chinese kids have unpronounceable names. I’d say it’s about 50/50 for a Chinese kid to be Xiomang or Jake.
     

    One reason for the difference in Indian vs Chinese nomenclature involves the fact that Cantonese and Mandarin are tonal languages. If you get the tone wrong, the result can be insulting. Hence, the Chinese preference for using Anglo names.
    , @International Jew

    Why don’t Indian Americans choose Anglo names for their kids? Or even names that work in both languages?
     
    Good question. Another interesting difference is that Indians haven't embraced our classical music — whereas Chinese kids now dominate the string section of youth symphonies from Palo Alto to Peoria!

    BTW, lots of Chinese kids have unpronounceable names. I’d say it’s about 50/50 for a Chinese kid to be Xiomang or Jake.
     
    This might reflect the "flight from white".
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  86. @Harry Baldwin
    Oh yes, the idea of the model minority only began to take root in the 1950s and 1960s. That's why it's so weird that Mark Twain wrote the following in Roughing It (1872):

    Of course there was a large Chinese population in Virginia--it is the case with every town and city on the Pacific coast. They are a harmless race when white men either let them alone or treat them no worse than dogs; in fact they are almost entirely harmless anyhow, for they seldom think of resenting the vilest insults or the cruelest injuries. They are quiet, peaceable, tractable, free from drunkenness, and they are as industrious as the day is long. A disorderly Chinaman is rare, and a lazy one does not exist. So long as a Chinaman has strength to use his hands he needs no support from anybody; white men often complain of want of work, but a Chinaman offers no such complaint; he always manages to find something to do....

    All Chinamen can read, write and cipher with easy facility--pity but all our petted voters could. In California they rent little patches of ground and do a deal of gardening. They will raise surprising crops of vegetables on a sand pile. They waste nothing. What is rubbish to a Christian, a Chinaman carefully preserves and makes useful in one way or another.
     

    I remember that passage of what is one of my favorite books. I always thought it was a bit of propaganda. He compliments the Mormons on their clean living and hard work, but ridicules their religion. Why not ridicule the religion of the Chinese? Probably it would have been too foreign for him to try to understand.

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    • Replies: @melendwyr
    Mostly because the Chinese don't have a single religion, they have a buffet of supernatural beliefs that individuals pick and choose as they like. They never developed an authoritarian model of religion, likely because the 'secular religion' of politics more than filled the need for externally-imposed structure. Or so I would guess.
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  87. Forbes says:
    @Anon

    Some people think that racism toward Asians diminished because Asians “proved themselves” through their actions. But that is only a sliver of the truth. Then, as now, the stories of successful Asians were elevated, while the stories of less successful Asians were diminished.

     

    Lol! Because that never happened with, say, blacks.

    A non sequitur is ever there was one regarding “a sliver of truth.”

    Story-telling, anecdotes, and oral histories include tales of success and accomplishment because those are the stories that engage and excite the imagination. No one makes a habit of retailing stories of failure because everyone is personally acquainted with it–been there, done that, have the merit badge.

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  88. Forbes says:
    @George Taylor
    Hollywood has been attempting to "elevate" Black characters for sometime now. It's almost a stereotype in movies and TV with a ensemble casts having a Black actor playing a technical/computer/science wizard. For example Don Cheadle in the Ocean's movies or Ving Rhames in the Mission Impossible movies. It doesn't seem to have stuck in reality as the supposed Asian elevation. I guess they should try harder.

    Female leads/token characters have this same brilliant technical/computer/science wiz attributes that is far over the top–as if trying to manufacture a stereotype. Or else a fighting/martial arts combat machine that beggars belief–almost unwatchable except as fantasy.

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  89. @G Pinfold
    I agree with your general point about variability of these populations.
    Where I live, Vietnamese, despite a rocky beginning, have leapfrogged many other groups into a de facto favoured immigrant status, and deservedly so in my opinion. They are, perhaps, to pure Han Chinese as Mediteraneans are to Northern Europeans. I get the impression that this is the view of the Chinese.
    But you could do a whole lot worse.

    They are, perhaps, to pure Han Chinese as Mediteraneans are to Northern Europeans.

    Seems like a pretty sound analogy.

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  90. Forbes says:
    @Bugg
    If the evil white people are so racist and awful, why do progressives want to integrate schools and housing?And why is it the awful racist white people have not held back Asian academic achievement and affluence?

    As it happens, have had a number of Chinese clients. Not scientific, but they pool their money to help relatives to buy businesses and homes. They have figured out real estate and small scale cash business commerce coupled with education work out long term.

    Koreans in NYC dominate the corner deli/convenience store biz with their own business development approach to pooling capital and financing entrepreneurs in the business.

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  91. Forbes says:
    @HBD Guy
    http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/07/us/immigration-dreamers-trump.html

    Trump Appears to Soften on Deporting Thousands of Young Immigrants

    WASHINGTON — President-elect Donald J. Trump on Wednesday appeared to soften his stance on whether to deport the more than 700,000 young people who entered the country illegally as children and were permitted to stay by President Obama.

    “We’re going to work something out that’s going to make people happy and proud,” Mr. Trump told Time magazine. “They got brought here at a very young age, they’ve worked here, they’ve gone to school here. Some were good students. Some have wonderful jobs. And they’re in never-never land because they don’t know what’s going to happen.”

    The immigrants, who call themselves Dreamers, are likely to present Mr. Trump with one of the first major policy tests of his administration, as his campaign promise to take a tough stance on immigration clashes with lawmakers from both parties on Capitol Hill who have implored Mr. Trump not to deny these young adults protective status.

    I second Jack Hanson’s comment. The lapdog media generates fake news with wholesale speculations about future developments–part of writing The Narrative–they wouldn’t know actual news if it hit them in the face.

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  92. Anon says: • Disclaimer

    PC is anti-Eurocentric, but it is totally Euro-conscien-centric.

    It revolves around what white people feel or should feel toward others.

    So, how Asians see themselves or other Asians is secondary to how whites see Asians.

    So, it’s not a problem if Asians reject their own kind, their own nations, their own culture, and etc. All that matters is how whites feel about Asians. That is what these Asians live for.

    Indeed, suppose these Asians were offered two options:

    1. Whites reject Asians, so Asians retain their identity and culture.

    2. Whites accept Asians, so Asians lose their identity and culture.

    To PC-addled Asians, #2 is preferable because nothing is more important to them than being accepted and even approved of by whites: socially, economically, racially, sexually, etc. It has no autonomy or agency apart from White Conscience.

    Even when these PC Asians excoriate whites, it is really from a slavish position. They criticize whites for not having been sufficiently accepting and approving of Asians. It never occurs to these PC Asians that white acceptance of Asians in the West often means extinction of Asian identity, culture, and autonomy, not to mention agency.

    [MORE]

    Asian Lives have value mainly in relation to what whites think of them.

    There is little discussion among Asians from New Delhi to Tokyo about how ‘this’ bunch of Asians are accepting of ‘that’ bunch of Asians. Their main concern is “Do whites approve of us?”, “Will whites allow us into their nations?” and etc.

    Truly free and independent people would have self-worth regardless of what others think of them. But conformist-and-slavish-minded Asians rely on social approval for their sense of self-worth. Since the West still dominates world culture and economy, Asians live for “Do whites accept us?” and “Do whites think well of us?” Asian ‘inferiors’ bitch to white ‘superiors’ for more acceptance and approval.

    Also, Euro-conscien-centrism supposes that only white people are capable of higher ideals and principles. Paradoxically, whites are blamed most for all the problems of the world because they are seen as the only saviors with the potentiality of action and agency to save humanity. Whites are the Superman.

    But non-whites should really think hard about this. Is White Conscience really a good thing? Isn’t it leading to the demise of Europe. I mean look at London. A Muslim mayor? If Asians follow the Western model, what is their future? A Tokyo with a Hindu mayor? Peking with African mayor? Seoul with Iranian mayor?

    This Inclusion thing might have worked if there had been strict limits on numbers of non-whites entering the West. But after the Merkelization of Germany, forget it. It’s total craziness. If that is ‘western values’, it’s a death cult. Germany might as well be called Merkey, a demographic bitch of Turkey.
    But worst of all, it’s a loss-loss for both sides. Germans and other Europeans lose their homelands, and these newcomers and their kids lose their identity too and become morons addicted to Eurovision or some porny rap trashy.

    Surely, the world can do better with nations and cultures than this.

    Now, it’s understandable why so many want to come to the West. It’s been said humans are naturally tribal, but they are mainly organisms, and organisms primarily seek security, comfort, and pleasure.
    Cuba may be filled with nationalist pride, but why have so many Cubans risked life and limb to come to the US despite the good chance that their kids will forget Spanish and just become like Yanqui? More security, more comfort, more food, more pleasure.
    Indeed, people will even choose less freedom for more security and pleasure. This is why libertarians never win. They offer more freedom and liberty but on condition of individual responsibility and accountability, which are painful. Better to have lots of safety nets even if it means less liberty. Look how Puerto Ricans totally gave up on independence because being part of US commonwealth offers them security, comfort, and pleasure in the form of welfare and aid.

    People come to the West because they are organisms in search for more comfort, security, and pleasure. Even being poor in France beats being ‘middle class’ in Africa or Middle East. Also, there are all sorts of pleasures via entertainment, media, and looser morals. Japanese hardly pay attention to their traditional culture because they are addicted to the pleasures of cartoons, pop music, rap music, porn culture, inane TV shows, pachinko, and etc.

    The power of pleasure can be seen in fatsos. We all know junk food has little nutritional value, but why do so many people indulge in that stuff, even at the risk of rotten teeth, diabetes, and lard-ass-ism? Because they can’t say NO to the power of pleasure.
    We know most of pop culture has no artistic, moral, or cultural value. So, why do Hollywood and music industry rake in so much dough? Cuz most people are morons who must have that pleasure fix of junk sugar culture. Globalism is one big pusher that seeks to turn everyone around the world into a junkie of hedon-food and hedon-culture.
    As hedonism fueled by Americanism takes over the world, cultures are being degraded and diluted. Real culture is too much like spinach and veggies and real meals. Good for you, but not as zippy and zappy. World Culture today is like the fizz on sodapop. It’s feels fizzy-good, but there is no nutritional substance.

    Anyway, since people want security, comfort, and pleasure, there needs to be ways to associate nationalism with security, comfort, and pleasure. That way, people will value their homelands more.

    This is why Globalism seeks to materially punish sovereign nations. Make the people of Iran, Russia, Hungary, and etc. suffer under sanctions and other means. Associate pain, duress, and desperation with nationalism and autonomy from globalism.
    Meanwhile, materially reward those nations that cuck out most to globalism. Shower them with preferable trade deals, aid, and emigration tickets to the West.
    (On the other hand, the vampiric greed of globalists is such that they sometimes fail to reward the whore-nations of globalism. Yeltsin opened Russia to globalist capitals. And Argentina did too. They should have been rewarded with goodies for their surrendering to Globalism. But the Globo-financialists, in Sorosian mode, just couldn’t resist sucking those nations dry. So, their vampirism had the opposite of the intended effect. Russians suffered and felt so much pain under globalism that they turned to nationalism, and some degree of restoration under Putin made them associate nationalism with security, comfort, and pleasure. For Russians, globalism = house of pain. This is why Globalists have recently been trying to destroy the Russian economy so that Russians will associate deprivation with Putin’s Russianism. We all want security, comfort, and pleasure, but a truly great people are willing to sacrifice such for something bigger-than-oneself. Like the Vietnamese in their struggle against imperialism. Like the Brits willing to sacrifice all in WWII. Like the Algerians in the Independence Movement. Consider the petty thief Ali Lapointe who lives for easy gain in the beginning of the movie but is willing to die for a higher cause at the end. From street punk to martyr*. But the Power of Pleasure now permeates into everything. Most of SJW-ism is really just Greek Life for ugly students.. like Washington DC is Hollywood for ugly people. SJW should be called Sigma Zeta Upsilon.)

    *It was all very good for the French to leave Algeria cuz of terrorism and etc.
    What I don’t get is why they imported Algeria INTO France. Are French a bunch of morons? Or, was its immigration policy and attempt to turn France into a mini-replica of the French Empire a way to redeem its imperialist past by showing how sincere and well-meaning the French are in wanting to share their high culture and Enlightenment values with all of humanity? But I think French themselves no longer believe in those values, and the newcomers just wanna watch Hollywood movies and listen to rap.

    Anyway, the French in Algeria had a France to run to as their empire crumbled. But the French in France cannot flee anywhere as France itself is turned into Battle of Algiers and Africa. French need to get their heads examined. But of course, such call for sanity is ‘far right’. Better to be Far Tard.

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  93. Forbes says:
    @Lagertha
    Yes. I miss that NYC, too. I lived in mid-town in a brownstone walk-up.....it was just $500/each a month/one bedroom with fireplace! - had a terrific room-mate; we ate at The Frontier often, near our apt. My job was in Soho, so I walked to work often. We hit Danceteria a lot....King Tut's. We also went to Pyramid and Area, too. I went to Studio 54 when in HS! - and CBGB/Mudd...

    I know; what a bummer for the Millennials. That NYC is totally gone. And, the wild and fun people from all creative backgrounds have disappeared. There is no vibe in NYC anymore as far as 80's craziness. I saw that by the late 80's, so many Wall Streeters and lawyers started buying up refurbished apartments in lower Manhattan; that always signals "change is coming." It makes me angry that whenever creative types find a great place to live, the corporate types want to be there, too. So, it was corporate gentrification that pushed the artists out. I remember noticing an awful lot of suits coming to places like Area; King Tut's and Pyramid were a bit too much for them (trannies and all) ...but developers just bought-up all of Lower East Side...and it was all over in 10 years. I guess we should be happy that there aren't so many bums in Lower Manhattan anymore, or some smelly streets with crummy storefronts.

    And crime is down ~75%–so there’s that trade-off. The era you refer to is fondly called pre-Giuliani–I’ve a scar from a street mugging that required 200 stitches to close up. I think the trade-off was worth it.

    You needn’t worry that smelly streets and crummy storefronts have completely disappeared from the LES–it’s what most of the hipsters want preserved. Except now they pay good money to live amongst the filth.

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    • Replies: @Lagertha
    Not that it matters anymore (Steve has so many new posts...moving on and all), but our discussion ab0ut "old NYC," is the reason why I always knew "selling Detroit," was never gonna work 3-5 years ago when this narrative was uberly pushed by people who were never cool in media or politics...or social work, for what it is worth.

    I feel bad for Detroit, but it never had the creative vibe to begin with; cars had not crossed to "cool artist" during the halcyon times of Detroit. For several years now, fracking years, all kinds of people have been trying to talk up Detroit to be like the new "lower East Side"; which, in the 80's, was an incubator of cutting edge art/design/music/music production/writing/computer science. No; Detroit never had the earlier art vibe; and, in earlier, I mean 100 years ago and into the 50's, so duh, never gonna happen.

    Detroit, like many cities, was never a mecca for artists....so the artists won't just suddenly move there like zombies.

    OK, weird factoid: artists are going back to LA! (Berlin, for the last 8 years, btw) LA is ready for gentrification because artists are willing to live next to gangs, homeless people, crazy people. And, these artist types have a lot more family money to parlay to real estate because they are products of baby-boomer parents who feel severely depressed that they raised fuck-ups...but shit, the parents will pay for their child's first condo!

    Seriously, this is happening. My husband and I represent old Baby Boomers...our kids are youngish because we met late....but, most of our peers have kids in their late 20's/early 30's - several are grandparents (remember my weepiness about never being called "grandma?").

    But, yes, LA is now being claimed as a mecca for "art majors." Tons of young people are moving there since NYC is like the Iron Islands...no more room for the poor.

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  94. melendwyr says: • Website
    @attilathehen
    You don't have to prove you're unsuccessful. You are. Caucasians have the highest IQs and creativity. Asians can only copy. If Asia and Europe had never interacted, Europe would have still developed into a high civilization. Japan, China, et al. would still be tending rice paddies.

    You DO realize that China was the ‘highest’ civilization on Earth for centuries, right?

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    • Replies: @attilathehen
    I DO realize that China had to "Westernize" in order to develop its economy. It did not come up with the Industrial Revolution. So whatever "civilization" it had for centuries had no effect on the West.
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  95. melendwyr says: • Website
    @Formerly CARealist
    I remember that passage of what is one of my favorite books. I always thought it was a bit of propaganda. He compliments the Mormons on their clean living and hard work, but ridicules their religion. Why not ridicule the religion of the Chinese? Probably it would have been too foreign for him to try to understand.

    Mostly because the Chinese don’t have a single religion, they have a buffet of supernatural beliefs that individuals pick and choose as they like. They never developed an authoritarian model of religion, likely because the ‘secular religion’ of politics more than filled the need for externally-imposed structure. Or so I would guess.

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    • Replies: @Formerly CARealist
    I thought it was ancestor-worship, or used to be. Plenty of the Chinese I know now are Christians.
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  96. @res

    Hence, stereotypes can only exist if they are rooted in fact. So, back when Japanese products were bad, we had the stereotype about “Jap crap” ... However, once Japanese products improved, the stereotype changed, and “Made in Japan” became a sign of quality.
     
    Worth noting that stereotypes also have time constants with respect to change. My recollection is the "Jap crap" stereotype was prevalent when Japanese products were becoming quite good. Any thoughts about the persistence of stereotypes in the face of contrary evidence?

    What’s striking is watching obsolete stereotypes like White Privilege and White Racism be revived.

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    • Replies: @Desiderius
    I wonder how much of the revival of the "white privilege" narrative is an attempt to counter SWPL gains without getting excommunicated from the ruling class. i.e. not targeted at working class whites at all.
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  97. @melendwyr
    You DO realize that China was the 'highest' civilization on Earth for centuries, right?

    I DO realize that China had to “Westernize” in order to develop its economy. It did not come up with the Industrial Revolution. So whatever “civilization” it had for centuries had no effect on the West.

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    • Replies: @melendwyr

    So whatever “civilization” it had for centuries had no effect on the West.
     
    Because ancient China viewed the entire "West" as an uninteresting barbarian backwater. And they were right!
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  98. @syonredux
    It's a bit curious, this burning desire that some Asian Americans have to prove that, no, really, we're actually just as unsuccessful as Blacks are.

    Blacks in western countries are on average happier, more self-assure, sexually more successful, they physically fight and win more often, people laugh more about them and fear them more, they talk and think about them all the time and last but not least they have more children. Maybe some Asians think that by being academically and financially less successful they would automatically improve on those other scales, which of course are more important for life satisfaction than grades or net worth. This of course is a misconception

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  99. syonredux says:
    @res

    Hence, stereotypes can only exist if they are rooted in fact. So, back when Japanese products were bad, we had the stereotype about “Jap crap” ... However, once Japanese products improved, the stereotype changed, and “Made in Japan” became a sign of quality.
     
    Worth noting that stereotypes also have time constants with respect to change. My recollection is the "Jap crap" stereotype was prevalent when Japanese products were becoming quite good. Any thoughts about the persistence of stereotypes in the face of contrary evidence?

    Worth noting that stereotypes also have time constants with respect to change. My recollection is the “Jap crap” stereotype was prevalent when Japanese products were becoming quite good. Any thoughts about the persistence of stereotypes in the face of contrary evidence?

    It takes a while for stereotypes to adjust to new evidence. By the early ’80s, the stereotype on Japanese products had completely flipped.

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    • Replies: @res

    It takes a while for stereotypes to adjust to new evidence. By the early ’80s, the stereotype on Japanese products had completely flipped.
     
    I think there was some variation in timing by part of the country and by product line (e.g. cars, motorcycles, cameras, electronics). My sense was the stereotype lingered longer into the '80s, but that probably had to do with where I lived at the time (e.g. I knew more autoworkers then). Any idea how we could assess this quantitatively?

    P.S. Snob appeal and nationalism also played into the stereotype dynamic (e.g. German vs. Japanese optics, American cars) and prevalence of those drivers varied.

    P.P.S. It looks like there is at least some literature on stereotype change: http://www.acrwebsite.org/volumes/6161/volumes/v10/NA-10
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  100. syonredux says:
    @Formerly CARealist
    The white kids in my son's chess club are mostly Russian.

    Why don't Indian Americans choose Anglo names for their kids? Or even names that work in both languages?

    BTW, lots of Chinese kids have unpronounceable names. I'd say it's about 50/50 for a Chinese kid to be Xiomang or Jake.

    Why don’t Indian Americans choose Anglo names for their kids? Or even names that work in both languages?

    BTW, lots of Chinese kids have unpronounceable names. I’d say it’s about 50/50 for a Chinese kid to be Xiomang or Jake.

    One reason for the difference in Indian vs Chinese nomenclature involves the fact that Cantonese and Mandarin are tonal languages. If you get the tone wrong, the result can be insulting. Hence, the Chinese preference for using Anglo names.

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  101. @Steve Sailer
    What's striking is watching obsolete stereotypes like White Privilege and White Racism be revived.

    I wonder how much of the revival of the “white privilege” narrative is an attempt to counter SWPL gains without getting excommunicated from the ruling class. i.e. not targeted at working class whites at all.

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  102. @melendwyr
    Mostly because the Chinese don't have a single religion, they have a buffet of supernatural beliefs that individuals pick and choose as they like. They never developed an authoritarian model of religion, likely because the 'secular religion' of politics more than filled the need for externally-imposed structure. Or so I would guess.

    I thought it was ancestor-worship, or used to be. Plenty of the Chinese I know now are Christians.

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    • Replies: @melendwyr
    In terms of religious systems, China had countless schools, sects, and superstitions, but the Big Three were Taoism, Buddhism, and Confucianism. Many people followed all three at different times during their lives and even during the day. They were used as people found them useful and appropriate. The idea of affirming one system as 'right' and rejecting the others would have struck them as absurd; as ridiculous as saying a formal black tie suit was the one right thing to wear, and having one on rain or shine, in public or at home or in bed, likely seems to you.
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  103. @Milo Minderbinder
    Actual names of kids at my chess club

    White:

    Adam
    Morris
    Leonard
    Paul
    Ben

    Asian:

    Noah
    Andrew
    Paul
    Ethan
    Ryan

    Indian:

    Yashari
    Vamshi
    Dhirti

    Black:

    There are no black kids in our club.

    Dhirti

    I sure hope she doesn’t marry a Sanchez!!

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  104. melendwyr says: • Website
    @attilathehen
    I DO realize that China had to "Westernize" in order to develop its economy. It did not come up with the Industrial Revolution. So whatever "civilization" it had for centuries had no effect on the West.

    So whatever “civilization” it had for centuries had no effect on the West.

    Because ancient China viewed the entire “West” as an uninteresting barbarian backwater. And they were right!

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    • Replies: @attilathehen
    Ah, then China must give up its Western style capitalist ways, medicine (especially plastic surgery where they change their Asian faces to a more-Western look), science. They need to "re-Easternize" themselves and go back to their "ancient" ways. Then they will be "walled off" from the West - permanently. Another win for the West.
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  105. melendwyr says: • Website
    @Formerly CARealist
    I thought it was ancestor-worship, or used to be. Plenty of the Chinese I know now are Christians.

    In terms of religious systems, China had countless schools, sects, and superstitions, but the Big Three were Taoism, Buddhism, and Confucianism. Many people followed all three at different times during their lives and even during the day. They were used as people found them useful and appropriate. The idea of affirming one system as ‘right’ and rejecting the others would have struck them as absurd; as ridiculous as saying a formal black tie suit was the one right thing to wear, and having one on rain or shine, in public or at home or in bed, likely seems to you.

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  106. @melendwyr

    So whatever “civilization” it had for centuries had no effect on the West.
     
    Because ancient China viewed the entire "West" as an uninteresting barbarian backwater. And they were right!

    Ah, then China must give up its Western style capitalist ways, medicine (especially plastic surgery where they change their Asian faces to a more-Western look), science. They need to “re-Easternize” themselves and go back to their “ancient” ways. Then they will be “walled off” from the West – permanently. Another win for the West.

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  107. colm says:
    @Otto the P
    Both the piece cited and Sailer leave out the fact that white men (such as me) find Asian women (such as my wife) beautiful to a far greater extent than they do black or hispanic or, eventually, white. Love and marriage are inevitably followed by a horse and carriage which leads to kids and a mortgage (sorry, lost the rhyme) which means that MANY white boys learned how extraordinary Asian women (and by extension, their brothers and father) were, which speeded the process extraordinarily.

    One thing the roundeyes forget is sons born in White-Asian union will be often too Asian for white girls and too ‘non-white’ for Asian girls, making them unattractive to either sides.

    Example: Elliot Rodger

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  108. colm says:
    @Abe
    And in non-bizarro world...

    I've been reading a lot of 20th Century history books lately and then looking up more details on Wikipedia. Like how seemingly most of the Imperial Japanese Navy general staff matriculated at the Ivies at one point or another before the War (Yamamoto himself went to Harvard) . Or how Madame Chiang Kai Shek grew up in Georgia, spoke with a sweet Southern belle accent the rest of her life, seduced Wendell Wilkie, etc. But think of how far she could have really gone but for white racism*! Similarly, look up any famous name in one of the turn-of-the-century East Asian nationalist movements and you'll likely find someone who not just lived and studied in the US, but was the second or even third generation from his family to do so.

    * Derb always like to point out Madame Chiang is the only national leader to have ever called for the use of nuclear weapons against her own people (the ChiCom's) so I guess Hillary's got that going for her...

    Soong Mei-Ling, madame CKS, did more harm to American interest in Asia than any one else.

    America had no business fighting in Asia – but she hoodwinked Eleanor Roosevelt to help CKS’s weak regime, and it made other Americans so sick that George Marshall sabotaged CKS’s plans to crush the commies once for all in 1946, because America was simply sick about CKS and his wife.

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  109. Lagertha says:
    @Forbes
    And crime is down ~75%--so there's that trade-off. The era you refer to is fondly called pre-Giuliani--I've a scar from a street mugging that required 200 stitches to close up. I think the trade-off was worth it.

    You needn't worry that smelly streets and crummy storefronts have completely disappeared from the LES--it's what most of the hipsters want preserved. Except now they pay good money to live amongst the filth.

    Not that it matters anymore (Steve has so many new posts…moving on and all), but our discussion ab0ut “old NYC,” is the reason why I always knew “selling Detroit,” was never gonna work 3-5 years ago when this narrative was uberly pushed by people who were never cool in media or politics…or social work, for what it is worth.

    I feel bad for Detroit, but it never had the creative vibe to begin with; cars had not crossed to “cool artist” during the halcyon times of Detroit. For several years now, fracking years, all kinds of people have been trying to talk up Detroit to be like the new “lower East Side”; which, in the 80′s, was an incubator of cutting edge art/design/music/music production/writing/computer science. No; Detroit never had the earlier art vibe; and, in earlier, I mean 100 years ago and into the 50′s, so duh, never gonna happen.

    Detroit, like many cities, was never a mecca for artists….so the artists won’t just suddenly move there like zombies.

    OK, weird factoid: artists are going back to LA! (Berlin, for the last 8 years, btw) LA is ready for gentrification because artists are willing to live next to gangs, homeless people, crazy people. And, these artist types have a lot more family money to parlay to real estate because they are products of baby-boomer parents who feel severely depressed that they raised fuck-ups…but shit, the parents will pay for their child’s first condo!

    Seriously, this is happening. My husband and I represent old Baby Boomers…our kids are youngish because we met late….but, most of our peers have kids in their late 20′s/early 30′s – several are grandparents (remember my weepiness about never being called “grandma?”).

    But, yes, LA is now being claimed as a mecca for “art majors.” Tons of young people are moving there since NYC is like the Iron Islands…no more room for the poor.

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  110. The Chinese and Japanese were always recognized as hard-working. Heck, they were even viewed as a “model minority” compared to the Irish:

    1870s Californian employers also said good things about their work ethic, though they were also viewed as uniquely prone to perjury.

    Even slavers from the Iberian Peninsula said positive things about Japanese slaves’ intelligence.

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  111. @Formerly CARealist
    The white kids in my son's chess club are mostly Russian.

    Why don't Indian Americans choose Anglo names for their kids? Or even names that work in both languages?

    BTW, lots of Chinese kids have unpronounceable names. I'd say it's about 50/50 for a Chinese kid to be Xiomang or Jake.

    Why don’t Indian Americans choose Anglo names for their kids? Or even names that work in both languages?

    Good question. Another interesting difference is that Indians haven’t embraced our classical music — whereas Chinese kids now dominate the string section of youth symphonies from Palo Alto to Peoria!

    BTW, lots of Chinese kids have unpronounceable names. I’d say it’s about 50/50 for a Chinese kid to be Xiomang or Jake.

    This might reflect the “flight from white”.

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  112. @Harry Baldwin
    I have a Japanese-American friend who is very successful but nevertheless considers himself a victim of racism. He lives in Manhattan. The example he frequently cites of the racism he suffers is that tourists who stop him to ask directions occasionally first ask if he speaks English.

    How odd. In the subsection (Manhattan) of a town called New YORK, named so by a band of Englishmen (admittedly after taking it by threat of force from the Dutch) from, you know, England, as a tribute to the Duke of YORK, another Englishman, they actually desire you to speak English. I think I’ve been triggered. Or possibly microaggressed.

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  113. res says:
    @syonredux

    Worth noting that stereotypes also have time constants with respect to change. My recollection is the “Jap crap” stereotype was prevalent when Japanese products were becoming quite good. Any thoughts about the persistence of stereotypes in the face of contrary evidence?
     
    It takes a while for stereotypes to adjust to new evidence. By the early '80s, the stereotype on Japanese products had completely flipped.

    It takes a while for stereotypes to adjust to new evidence. By the early ’80s, the stereotype on Japanese products had completely flipped.

    I think there was some variation in timing by part of the country and by product line (e.g. cars, motorcycles, cameras, electronics). My sense was the stereotype lingered longer into the ’80s, but that probably had to do with where I lived at the time (e.g. I knew more autoworkers then). Any idea how we could assess this quantitatively?

    P.S. Snob appeal and nationalism also played into the stereotype dynamic (e.g. German vs. Japanese optics, American cars) and prevalence of those drivers varied.

    P.P.S. It looks like there is at least some literature on stereotype change: http://www.acrwebsite.org/volumes/6161/volumes/v10/NA-10

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    I think there was some variation in timing by part of the country and by product line (e.g. cars, motorcycles, cameras, electronics). My sense was the stereotype lingered longer into the ’80s, but that probably had to do with where I lived at the time (e.g. I knew more autoworkers then).
     
    Could be regional bias. My Dad was living in CA, and he says that Japanese products were held in high regard by 1980.
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  114. syonredux says:
    @res

    It takes a while for stereotypes to adjust to new evidence. By the early ’80s, the stereotype on Japanese products had completely flipped.
     
    I think there was some variation in timing by part of the country and by product line (e.g. cars, motorcycles, cameras, electronics). My sense was the stereotype lingered longer into the '80s, but that probably had to do with where I lived at the time (e.g. I knew more autoworkers then). Any idea how we could assess this quantitatively?

    P.S. Snob appeal and nationalism also played into the stereotype dynamic (e.g. German vs. Japanese optics, American cars) and prevalence of those drivers varied.

    P.P.S. It looks like there is at least some literature on stereotype change: http://www.acrwebsite.org/volumes/6161/volumes/v10/NA-10

    I think there was some variation in timing by part of the country and by product line (e.g. cars, motorcycles, cameras, electronics). My sense was the stereotype lingered longer into the ’80s, but that probably had to do with where I lived at the time (e.g. I knew more autoworkers then).

    Could be regional bias. My Dad was living in CA, and he says that Japanese products were held in high regard by 1980.

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  115. M says:

    Jeff Guo: But according to a recent study by Brown University economist Nathaniel Hilger, schooling rates among Asian Americans didn’t change all that significantly during those three decades.

    Since higher education rates did change markedly among Whites during this period, it seems hard to see how this is the case. So I assume he means “Didn’t change relative to Whites”.

    Indeed the paper actually contradicts his statement, as he has written it: http://www.colorado.edu/economics/seminars/SeminarArchive/2016-17/Hilger.pdf

    See page 60, which shows a constant increase in attainment among all groups, and a constant Asian higher education advantage over Whites, from 1940 to present and then p61 showing a major income convergence in all racial groups from 1940 – 1970 (and then a practically static gap since then). So Asian American education did change, but not disproportionately compared to other ethnic groups.

    More pressingly, looking at the linked paper:

    Asians achieved extraordinary upward mobility relative to both blacks and whites for every cohort born in California since 1920. This mobility stemmed primarily from gains in earnings conditional on education, rather than unusual educational attainment. Historical test score data suggest that low initial earnings for Asians —unlike blacks— primarily reflected prejudice rather than skills. Asian history is consistent with the view that racial earnings gaps driven by contemporary prejudice do not persist in competitive labor markets.

    Note the bolded sections. Where are they in your article, again, Mr Guo?

    “Group test score patterns in 1943 suggest that similarity of Asian and black conditional earnings gaps in 1940 belied very different underlying mechanisms. Low earnings for Asians likely reflected taste-based discrimination or white misperceptions of Asian productivity, whereas low earnings for blacks likely reflected lower black skills in addition to any role played by prejudice. Because taste-based discrimination and misperceptions of worker productivity are profit-sacrificing rather than profit-maximizing, many theories of discrimination would have predicted faster elimination of the Asian conditional earnings gaps than the black conditional earnings gaps as labor markets became more open and competitive after WWII (e.g., Becker, 1957; Arrow, 1972). To my knowledge, Asian American history represents the first empirical test of this prediction. Asians in 1940 provide a unique test case because their earnings disadvantage cannot be explained by education or test scores, unlike other groups previously studied in the discrimination literature including blacks (Neal and Johnson, 1996; Johnson and Neal, 1998; Fryer, 2010;), Mexican Americans (Trejo, 1997; Johnson and Neal, 1998), and in some respects women (e.g., Goldin, 2014; Kleven et al., 2015).

    It’s really surprising to me that Guo would quote this, because it’s directly opposite the mainstream narrative, as in its models, Hilger is emphatic that Black wage performance is only explained by lower skills, going back to 1940. He’s also emphatic that contemporary intra-ethnic wages gaps are *not* due to discrimination.

    All that is absolutely *not* what “the Cathedral” would like to hear!

    If you refer to his source, he’s written a bizarre article here, which takes a paper supporting conclusions that would be unpalatable to most bien pensants of the Washington Post, that Blacks, or anyone today, are not in fact particularly victims of discrimination as low skills, and then spun it as a story of how Asian American success was used to hide how Blacks are victims of discrimination rather than low skills.

    Jeff Guo: Doublethink Champ 2016? Or just an extremely lazy reader, who found something that had a phrase in which he liked and then assumed the rest fit with his weltanschauung without bothering to even parse it?

    Though on the paper itself I don’t agree that it is necessarily White insularity forming a barrier that declined most though. Also important is likely to be a change in the stance of Chinese to *not* work in their own ethnic organisations and businesses, relative to the more productive general economy. A choice based stance by Chinese to work in Chinese laundries, etc. that decreased their earnings. It would more likely be as much about Chinese insularity and Euro American insularity and more effort at integration on both sides. I don’t think Hilger’s tested that hypothesis properly.

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  116. M says:
    @G Pinfold
    I agree with your general point about variability of these populations.
    Where I live, Vietnamese, despite a rocky beginning, have leapfrogged many other groups into a de facto favoured immigrant status, and deservedly so in my opinion. They are, perhaps, to pure Han Chinese as Mediteraneans are to Northern Europeans. I get the impression that this is the view of the Chinese.
    But you could do a whole lot worse.

    The simpler analogy might be that the Vietnamese are to Chinese as the Armenians are to the Greeks. You’d need to be deep north into Russian Siberia to find any Asians you could take as equivalent to Northern Europeans.

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