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Trump on Camp of the Saints: "I Think What Has Happened to Europe Is a Shame"
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From The Sun:

Mr Trump told The Sun: “I have great love for countries in Europe.

“Don’t forget, essentially I’m a product of the European Union, between Scotland and Germany.

“Right? My father Germany, my mother Scotland.

Trump says the wave of migrants from the Middle East and Africa is permanently changing the continent
But in a controversial outburst, he added: “I think what has happened to Europe is a shame.

“Allowing the immigration to take place in Europe is a shame.

“I think it changed the fabric of Europe and, unless you act very quickly, it’s never going to be what it was and I don’t mean that in a positive way.

“So I think allowing millions and millions of people to come into Europe is very, very sad.

“I think you are losing your culture. Look around. You go through certain areas that didn’t exist ten or 15 years ago.”

By the way

 
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  1. The same is true of the U.S. I wonder how Trump feels about the situation here?

  2. Chris Hayes quoted what Trump said on twitter, obviously aghast at Trump being against mass unlimited migration from Africa and the Middle East into Europe.
    Just like that article last week, Hayes is another person who wouldn’t admit to being for open borders but is against any type of border enforcement. He’s “anti-anti-open borders.”

    • Replies: @Rob McX
  3. “Trump on Camp of the Saints”

    Isn’t ‘Camp of the Saints’ a book?

  4. Thomas says:

    “I think it changed the fabric of Europe and, unless you act very quickly, it’s never going to be what it was and I don’t mean that in a positive way.”

    When they played this line where I heard it, on an NPR news blurb, there was an audible gasp of disgust in the newsroom.

  5. e says:

    Truth telling from the guy in the Oval…gotta love it.

    • Agree: Antlitz Grollheim
    • Replies: @AnotherDad
  6. Trump just moved the entire range of acceptable conversation. Pretty momentous.

    • Replies: @Almost Missouri
    , @Lowe
  7. Anonymous[337] • Disclaimer says:
    @OilcanFloyd

    Yep. That’s the obvious, million-dollar question.

    Will Trump dare to point out the obvious back home? He’s come close a time or two, and it sets everyone’s hair on fire. By “everyone” we mean the ‘cultural elite’ open-borders advocates, the MSM etc. Real Americans know it’s nothing more or less than the unvarnished truth.

    Telling the truth in these times is truly a revolutionary act. Whatever his other failings–and they are many–Trump dares to tell the truth.

    • Replies: @istevefan
    , @Desiderius
  8. syonredux says:
    @anony-mouse

    “Trump on Camp of the Saints”

    Isn’t ‘Camp of the Saints’ a book?

    A prophecy.

    • Replies: @The Alarmist
  9. Berty says:

    When Trump is simple and straightforward he’s great. His problem is that he hasn’t been able to message properly and hasn’t hired anyone who can do so. Regardless, this was a home run for him.

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
  10. Rob McX says:
    @whyamihere

    Nobody comes right out and calls for open borders. They know that would be counter-productive. The apocalyptic tsunami of immigrants would provoke a backlash that would close the borders for good. It would be interesting to ask liberals to quantify their position on immigration. How many Africans do they think Europe should take per year…a million? And seeing that such a huge number would still be less than 0.1 per cent of Africa’s population (and only 3 per cent of its current annual increase), how would this help Africa?

  11. foulkes says:

    The US is a generation ahead of Europe.
    California doesn’t even resemble the United States any more

  12. Rapparee says:

    “Don’t forget, essentially I’m a product of the European Union, between Scotland and Germany.”

    Assuming the accuracy of David Hackett Fischer’s 1989 pronouncements on page 839 of “Albion’s Seed“, and Gary Boyd Roberts’ research on Bill Clinton and Barack Obama, there have been only three American Presidents who had absolutely no Colonial American British ancestry- Martin Van Buren (Dutch), John F. Kennedy (Irish), and Donald Trump (Kallstadt and Lewis), and the former two’s ancestors had been here a bit longer. This allegedly “anti-immigrant” President has a higher proportion of very-recent immigrant ancestors than perhaps any other head of state in American history.

    • Replies: @Cagey Beast
    , @eD
  13. Trump is an Identitarian, whether he knows it or not:

    Mr Trump told The Sun: “I have great love for countries in Europe.

    “Don’t forget, essentially I’m a product of the European Union, between Scotland and Germany.

    “Right? My father Germany, my mother Scotland.

    A nation, a civilization is an organism, not an organization. Trump gets this. The guy who lives in a gold-plated Manhattan penthouse gets this. Even Margaret Thatcher — the grand dame of enlightened selfishness — knew this:

    … you know, there is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first. It’s our duty to look after ourselves and then, also to look after our neighbour. People have got the entitlements too much in mind, without the obligations. There’s no such thing as entitlement, unless someone has first met an obligation.

    http://briandeer.com/social/thatcher-society.htm

    UKIP’s symbol is a pound sign. A pound sign! Identitarians use as their symbol the marker the Spartans put on their shields when they drove back the Persian Empire. That’s the difference between vestigial cuckservatism and Identitarianism in a nutshell.

    While others fret, Marion Maréchal is attending a conference in Italy organized by the governing League on “the barbarian invasion, sovereignty and power”.

    http://www.lefigaro.fr/politique/le-scan/2018/07/11/25001-20180711ARTFIG00298-marion-marechal-en-italie-pour-parler-invasion-barbare-souverainete-et-pouvoir.php

    The organism we call “western civilization” is fighting for its life. The organization we call “the Washington consensus” is trying to smother it. Trump senses this and doesn’t like it.

    • Replies: @L Woods
    , @James N. Kennett
  14. It is truly horrible to think of the once beautiful cities of Europe, now turned into holding pens for the wretched refuse.

    I have never been to Europe myself, but I am steeped in the culture and history of the West through my reading, my acquaintance with art and music, my cooking, my small adventures, my eagerness to know and appreciate it. It used to frustrate me to no end that countless middle class boobs have gone there as tourists and gaped uncomprehendingly at things that they are unworthy to see, but I who am worthy to see them never got to go. But now I think this may have mysteriously worked out for the best. At least I have Europe as an idea. My Europe is still untouched by mass immigration and despair. It is this unsullied presence of Europe in the heart from whence it shall be restored.

  15. This is why I love Trump for today’s FUSA.

  16. @Rapparee

    Yes, Trump isn’t a WASP: he’s an ethnic White, like Dean Martin, Jack Kerouac or Jimmy Hoffa.

    • Replies: @Rapparee
    , @sb
  17. Corvinus says:
    @OilcanFloyd

    “Right? My father Germany, my mother Scotland.”

    Undesirable ethnic mixing.

    “The same is true of the U.S. I wonder how Trump feels about the situation here?”

    Let’s NOTICE something here. Trump’s ancestors should never have been allowed to be here in the first place. Don’t blame me, blame Benjamin Franklin (1750)…

    He said they were other than intelligent –> “Those who come hither are generally of the most ignorant Stupid Sort of their own Nation.”

    He said there unable to adapt to our values –> “Not being used to Liberty, they know not how to make a modest use of it.”

    He said they were (gasp) endangering New England’s whiteness –> “[T]he Spaniards, Italians, French, Russians and Swedes, are generally of what we call a swarthy Complexion; as are the Germans also, the Saxons only excepted.”

    And Alt Right leader Vox Day…

    “So I’m going to make some of you extremely uncomfortable here, because what I’m going to tell you – and this is not going to be comfortable for those of you who are US citizens – a lot of you are not Americans and you never were. Your parents aren’t, you’re grandparents aren’t, because Americans are defined very, very clearly and the United States Constitution was written for a very specific group of people and that doesn’t include immigrants, it doesn’t include refugees, it doesn’t include the great grand children of former immigrants, it doesn’t include anybody except for the sons and daughters of the American Revolution.”

    Because, in his own words, “posterity, as I have conclusively proven, means “direct genetic descendants”, not “future history” or “succeeding generations” or anything else.”

    So, any and all non-English American citizens out there…you have to go back. Even Trump, using Franklin’s and Day’s “logic”.

  18. Anon[240] • Disclaimer says:

    I grew up in Northern Ireland. It’s a great wee country that has a lot to r commend itself, and I can’t say enough nice things about it. And yet, it is primarily known for The Troubles.
    Now, Ireland has Somali mayors and a gay Indian leader. Within the short short span of my life, Ireland went from a nation so rabid to defend its self concept of Home and kin that they bombed Canary Wharf and fielded hand-me-down Armalites and RPGs against Europe’s premiere Army to a place where gay Indians would get elected.
    Europe has changed at absolutely break-neck speeds

    • Replies: @Corn
    , @dfordoom
  19. Dave Pinsen says: • Website
    @Berty

    He brought up a good point at that NATO meeting, about the contradiction between Russia being the big threat and Germany depending on it for energy imports.

    Obviously, that suggests Russia isn’t a big menace, just a bogeyman. But Trump could have gone further. What’s the point of NATO today?

    Is it about keeping a lid on Islam? If so, why is Turkey still in the alliance? Is it about countering the rise of China? If so, why is Russia out of the alliance?

    • Agree: Almost Missouri, fish
    • Replies: @fish
  20. jim jones says:

    The Sun seems to be the only UK newspaper holding firm against Theresa May and her Multicultural agenda

  21. utu says:
    @OilcanFloyd

    The same is true of the U.S.

    The US is worse. It has large AA population form the day one. Most of Europe can still avoid it the fate of the America.

  22. Anonymous[337] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rob McX

    . How many Africans do they think Europe should take per year…a million? And seeing that such a huge number would still be less than 0.1 per cent of Africa’s population (and only 3 per cent of its current annual increase), how would this help Africa?

    Good Lord, those are some sobering stats.

    • Replies: @Simon Tugmutton
  23. eD says:
    @Rapparee

    I thought Trump had Scottish ancestry?

  24. Anonymous[337] • Disclaimer says:
    @foulkes

    The US is a generation ahead of Europe.
    California doesn’t even resemble the United States any more

    It really pisses me off that we gave away what was arguably our most beautiful state. And certainly the one with the most beautiful weather, on the coast anyway.

    Why didn’t we give them Alabama or Kansas? Never mind, we’re giving them all 50.

    In other news, UNZ.COM just suffered another DDoS attack.

    • Replies: @Svigor
    , @Percy Gryce
    , @Sunbeam
  25. Anonymous[337] • Disclaimer says:
    @Intelligent Dasein

    I have never been to Europe myself

    That’s a shame. I’d say you don’t know what you missed, but your post indicates that you just might.

    Except at the end–Europe isn’t coming back. Neither is America.

  26. syonredux says:
    @foulkes

    The US is a generation ahead of Europe.
    California doesn’t even resemble the United States any more

    It doesn’t even resemble the California of my youth…..and I was born in 1980…..

  27. Anonymous[337] • Disclaimer says:
    @Corvinus

    Your endless clowning fools no one here.

  28. istevefan says:

    I am sure the BBC and other ‘respectable’ sources slammed Trump for this comment on immigration. But how are average people in the UK taking this? Could any of our UK or European friends let us know how people really think about what Trump said.

    • Replies: @jim jones
  29. syonredux says:
    @eD

    I thought Trump had Scottish ancestry?

    But not colonial Scottish ancestry; his mother was born in Scotland.

  30. Rapparee says:
    @eD

    Yes, but not Colonial-era- his Scottish-born mother left the Hebrides in 1930. Her Gaelic-speaking Highland background was also quite distinct from the English-speaking lowland “Borderer” culture that settled the American south in the 18th century. He didn’t have any (known) ancestors living in the Thirteen Colonies in 1776. (Van Buren did, but they weren’t of British descent).

  31. L Woods says:
    @Cagey Beast

    People have got the entitlements too much in mind, without the obligations. There’s no such thing as entitlement, unless someone has first met an obligation.

    True indeed, but the reverse is also true: no obligations without entitlement. Posturing idiots blabbering on about how “nobody owes you anything” as a way to signal they’ve got theirs deliberately fail to grasp that such sentiments are a two-way street.

    • Agree: 27 year old, Rosie
  32. Rapparee says:
    @Cagey Beast

    God’s love and mercy upon poor Jack Kerouac. Notwithstanding his seat in the pantheon of proto-hippiedom, he kept his instinctual blue-collar aversion to “hooldums and communists, joked that he ought to have authored De Coelesti Hierarchia, and proclaimed his firm belief in “order, tenderness, and piety” (inbetween puking up whole bottles of Thunderbird). With my own long and well-deserved sentence in Purgatory awaiting, I shouldn’t be surprised to bump into him one day with time enough for a lengthy chat.

  33. Svigor says:

    Our guy. This is why he could shoot someone on Madison Avenue, and we wouldn’t care. Okay, we’d cheer, but you catch my drift; he could shoot someone on Fifth and we’d be okay with it.

  34. istevefan says:
    @Anonymous

    Maybe Trump is addressing the immigration situation in America indirectly through his criticism of Europe to avoid unnecessary backlash in the USA.

    Recall that in the UK people only feel free to criticize immigration in regards to Poles and other whites from Europe. Even if they dislike Pakistani and other third world immigration, they run a huge risk of directly expressing that thought. But they seem to be able to criticize Polish immigration with no fear. So criticizing Polish immigration might serve as proxy for third world immigration.

    Likewise, maybe Trump’s direct attack on immigration in Europe is a way to get Americans to think about it without directly mentioning it in the American context. This way he can avoid some of the blowback he would definitely receive if he were that direct in regards to American immigration.

    • Replies: @Pericles
    , @Rosie
  35. syonredux says:
    @Corvinus

    Right? My father Germany, my mother Scotland.”

    Undesirable ethnic mixing.

    Works out OK….unlike, say, Spanish and Amerind…..

    Let’s NOTICE something here. Trump’s ancestors should never have been allowed to be here in the first place. Don’t blame me, blame Benjamin Franklin (1750)…

    When it comes to Europeans, experience has proven Franklin wrong. Anglo-America has an excellent track record when it comes to absorbing Europeans….However, Anglo-Americans have had little to no success with non-Europeans…..

    Just look at the gulf between this

    And this

    And Alt Right leader Vox Day…

    Good thing that “vox day” isn’t my leader…..I would hate to be led by such an ignoramus…..

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @Corvinus
  36. Svigor says:
    @Corvinus

    *hands Corvanus a love sock*

  37. Svigor says:
    @Anonymous

    California is arguably the best real estate on the planet. Probably #2 behind the Mediterranean coast. Unquestionably the best real estate in the US.

  38. Anonymous[135] • Disclaimer says:

    The great thing about Donald Trump is that he cuts through the lies, sophistry and bullshit which are the stock-in-trade of conventional politicians and just speaks as he finds. What you see is what you get. Clear thought and honesty in politicians, in these Economist run times is so damned rare as to be remarkable.

    Really. We are so used to either having politicians too scared of their shadows to do anything decisive and actually *govern* or acting like wankers because they think they are being Economist smart.

    Trump – by actually acting as a President – is a breath of fresh air, if nothing else.

  39. Donald, please invade us before it’s too late.

    • Agree: jim jones
  40. @eD

    Trump’s mother is from the Isle of Lewis in the Outer Hebrides which is as about as Scottish as you can get, very Celtic with a history of Viking colonization. One of the last parts of Scotland to be civilized by the English. Trump’s mother spoke Scottish Gaelic which is a very unique linguistic heritage. One certainly worth preserving.

    Trump is basically Highlander going form the Scottish Highlands to the mean streets of New York City.

  41. MG says:

    For this alone, I say Trump is the greatest President ever. Meanwhile, war criminal George W. Bush, who lied this nation into war, is “disturbed” by the discourse on immigration.

    • Agree: Harry Baldwin
  42. Anonymous[276] • Disclaimer says:
    @Intelligent Dasein

    It used to frustrate me to no end that countless middle class boobs have gone there as tourists and gaped uncomprehendingly at things that they are unworthy to see, but I who am worthy to see them never got to go.

    You sound like precisely the type of insufferable bore that would end up hating and being disillusioned by it, while the typical middle class boob has some vestige of childlike innocence and naivete remaining that allows him to actually enjoy it.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  43. This was the most important point that Trump made during his Sun interview.

    The New York Times managed to discuss the Sun interview without mentioning this remark in their synopsis, focusing instead on Trump’s comments on upcoming trade deals. Trade deals will come and go, but Third-World immigrants will be with Europe forever. It is a massively more important issue in Europe than current trade deal bargaining strategies.

  44. Dave Pinsen says: • Website

    Unz.com has been eating tweets recently, so I’m not optimistic that this one will post correctly, but it’s relevant to this discussion, as it’s an example of a smart journalist (Richard Bradley, who along with Steve was quick to suspect the Rolling Stone rape story was false) uncritically accepting the elite consensus on immigration to Europe.

  45. jim jones says:
    @istevefan

    The UK media are as out of touch with the general population as the US ones, the BBC are so bad that I threw away my TV just to avoid paying the license fee

  46. “Don’t forget, essentially I’m a product of the European Union, between Scotland and Germany.

    Heh, if intentional, that was a good double-entendre.

  47. Anonymous[337] • Disclaimer says:
    @syonredux

    http://images-resrc.staticlp.com/S=W1000M,H700M/O=85/http://media.lonelyplanet.com/a/g/hi/t/da5cde2fb445867e9eebf99bb8a3a2fa-smithsonian-american-art-museum.jpg

    I wish they’d quit sticking so many words on our monumental edifices.

    This building was even more attractive a generation ago.

    Agree w/you about Vox Day though, and much else.

  48. BenKenobi says:

    Who else is high energy?!

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  49. @Corvinus

    Corny, why do you bother?

    You do the same stupid shit again and again and again. Never making any remotely intelligent–let alone interesting or insightful–point, but just taking some–often five or ten–sentences and making some juvenile low-wattage “rejoinder”. Is it an IQ problem? Do you really have that much time on your hands?

    At least Tiny Duck’s trolling is occasionally amusing.

    You have to go back!

  50. Baxter says:

    I keep hearing horrors stories regarding California. What the heck have guys been doing out there?
    I live on the other side of this vast country and have never been that far west.
    I hear good things about the Pacific Northwest, but California appears to have turned into a upper third world place.
    Is this true? Are people literally fleeing the state now?

  51. Is this guy a gift from the gods, or what? Seriously. Prior to his candidacy taking off, who could possibly imagined this turn of events? At that point the only hope seemed to be Europe with their parliamentary systems in which small parties can gradually increase their numbers and influence. The idea of someone hijacking one of the two major US parties, winning the Presidency of the US, taking on and whipping the Deep State, and gradually turning the post-war consensus on its head domestically and internationally would have seemed patently absurd. No one else could have done anything remotely like this. We have a long, long way to go, fingers crossed etc etc etc.

    • Agree: Almost Missouri
    • Replies: @Rosie
  52. Anonymous[157] • Disclaimer says:
    @anony-mouse

    Considered racist and far-right in France, apparently “approved by Marine le Pen and Steve Bannon”

    https://www.amazon.fr/Camp-Saints-précédé-Big-Other/dp/2221123964/

  53. Anonymous[157] • Disclaimer says:
    @BenKenobi

    I hope someone makes a Trump Anime at some point.

    Meanwhile, have some Lin Minmai

    • Replies: @Chrisnonymous
  54. @foulkes

    I would prefer Mexicans to Pakistanis or Africans. In long run, California will be a far better place than Paris or London.

    • Agree: fish
    • Replies: @TTSSYF
    , @MG
  55. @jim jones

    I threw away my TV just to avoid paying the license fee

    lol. Why throw away the tv? Just don’t bother to pay the fee. As long as you don’t let the BBC agent inside your house, it is almost impossible for them to prove that you are required to pay the fee.

  56. Pericles says:
    @istevefan

    Recall that in the UK people only feel free to criticize immigration in regards to Poles and other whites from Europe. Even if they dislike Pakistani and other third world immigration, they run a huge risk of directly expressing that thought. But they seem to be able to criticize Polish immigration with no fear. So criticizing Polish immigration might serve as proxy for third world immigration.

    The fact that critics of non-european migrants get thrown in jail might be a contributing factor.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  57. Pericles says:
    @AnotherDad

    The point of ‘Corvinus’ is to make many readers spend a few seconds each to scan through some nonsense.

  58. @syonredux

    “Trump on Camp of the Saints”

    Isn’t ‘Camp of the Saints’ a book?

    A prophecy.

    More like a script for a reality show, coming soon to a town near you.

    • Replies: @songbird
  59. Anonymous[337] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous

    What I don’t understand is why I.D. “never got to go.”

    Meanwhile, your hostile and churlish observations are irrelevant at best.

  60. TTSSYF says:
    @OilcanFloyd

    It doesn’t take much reading between the lines that Trump feels the same way about the situation here. That’s why he keeps talking about merit-based immigration and ending the lottery and chain migration. Right now, it’s triage, with his efforts focused on ending illegal immigration and implementing a travel ban.

  61. TTSSYF says:
    @julius caesar

    Do we have to choose between the two?

  62. Trump hit the ground running in England and Lauren Southern did the same in Australia. She’s banned from the UK but they couldn’t keep him out.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
  63. Rosie says:
    @istevefan

    Maybe Trump is addressing the immigration situation in America indirectly through his criticism of Europe to avoid unnecessary backlash in the USA.

    If you don’t know what’s going on in Europe, you can’t properly understand what’s going on here. Leftist excuses for the browning of America often sound rather plausible until you realize that they are attacking ALL White nations this way.

    America: genocide and slavery
    Britain: colonialism
    Ireland: nation of famine refugees
    Bulgaria: You’re already part Turkish anyway.

    Etc, etc, etc…

    • Agree: Anonym, JMcG
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @Sandmich
  64. Anonymous[820] • Disclaimer says:
    @Pericles

    Good point. And if that weren’t enough, Brits aren’t even allowed to discuss such imprisonment, or the same punishment awaits them. Shows just how cowed and manipulated a population can become in the age of mass propaganda.

  65. Rosie says:
    @Tim Howells

    Is this guy a gift from the gods, or what?

    I fear for his safety. But for gun-totin’ deplorables, I’m sure he’d be dead as a dodo.

  66. Anonymous[820] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosie

    Leftist excuses for the browning of America often sound rather plausible until you realize that they are attacking ALL White nations this way.

    And only white nations. Japan (for example) remains unsullied, though some nation-wreckers have begun to notice.

  67. @Anonymous

    In other news, UNZ.COM just suffered another DDoS attack.

    I was wondering what was happening last night.

    • Replies: @Stan d Mute
  68. @Anonymous

    Make sure you get that caveat in there.

    Brave, very brave.

  69. sb says:
    @Cagey Beast

    Trump may not be a WASP but he is an Anglo-Celt ( as was Kennedy )

    Aren’t there some recent studies that so called Anglo-Saxons are almost always actually Anglo-Celts ?

    • Replies: @Cagey Beast
  70. The super smart people were calling this guy a buffoon when he was running for president. Now he sounds like the only guy who can see in a world full of blind geniuses.

    Hey, that yields a new twist on an old saying:

    In a world full of blind geniuses, the one-eyed buffoon is king.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  71. Sandmich says:
    @Rosie

    That does clear one thing up for me. All the while I was growing up all I heard was liberal complaining about how the U.S. wasn’t Europe (national health care, urbanization, public transportation, beer, cafes, the list was endless) and at some point in time that flipped to complaining how Europe wasn’t turning itself into Brazil like us high minded Yanks.

    • Agree: Almost Missouri
  72. @sb

    On his maternal side, Trump would be related to the Norse-Gaels:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norse%E2%80%93Gaels

    Some of them became:

    The gallowglasses (also spelt galloglass, gallowglas or galloglas; from Irish: gall óglaigh meaning foreign warriors) were a class of elite mercenary warriors who were principally members of the Norse-Gaelic clans of Scotland between the mid 13th century and late 16th century. As Scots, they were Gaels and shared a common background and language with the Irish, but as they had intermarried with the 10th century Norse settlers of western Scotland, the Irish called them Gall Gaeil (“foreign Gaels”).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallowglass

  73. vinteuil says:
    @Intelligent Dasein

    You “never got to go?”

    Good heavens – what’s stopping you?

    I’m an adjunct professor of philosophy, living more or less hand-to-mouth, but I’ve managed to make it to Europe on my own dime nearly 20 times in the last ten years. I’m currently in Russia for five weeks. (Tonight, La Boheme at the Mariinsky Theatre – ₽ 600 (!) for seats up in the rafters).

    If you don’t mind sharing a bathroom and preparing your own meals, you can easily manage most of central & Eastern Europe for about $30 a day + transportation. And, believe me – you would love Russia & Poland & Czechia & Slovakia & Hungary. Maybe even Romania & Serbia & Croatia.

    France & Italy are, of course, more expensive & more problematic – but still must be seen, while there’s still time. Just think of it as if you were visiting Rome in 409.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @Romanian
  74. George says:

    “I Think What Has Happened to Europe Is a Shame”

    No it isn’t. Froggy and the Brits insisted Libya be blown to simitherines. Defense Secretary Gates tried to mansplain the situation to Hillary but had no bureaucratic allies at home or abroad to stop it.

    Now what happened to Libya, that’s a shame. In camp of the saints Europe does not cause the tragedy unlike the destruction of Libya.

  75. Corn says:
    @Anon

    800 years to kick the British out so the Poles, Nigerians and Indians can come in.

    • Replies: @Mj
  76. Anonymous[266] • Disclaimer says:
    @Buzz Mohawk

    There is only one move which makes me question Trump’s 5-D chess instincts. Jeff Sessions. Then again, with all the crap going on by the secret police (DOJ/FBI) and Deep State it has gotten even NeverTrumpers aghast at the corruption. Meanwhile Trump is bringing peace to the Korean Peninsula, fixing trade imbalances, correcting and strengthening old alliances, making the American economy stronger than ever, et al. The other day I talked with a guy— an old war vet— who was a Rubio supporter during the election and seriously disliked Trump. Now he is saying Trump is the greatest President in his lifetime (80+ years) and wants the DOJ and FBI disbanded.

    It’s heard to believe Trump gamed all this out (allowing the DOJ/Deep State conspiracy to play out), but attributing all the right moves to luck isn’t credible,

  77. I wonder if Frank Chung knows Henry Wang?

  78. Corvinus says:
    @syonredux

    “Works out OK….unlike, say, Spanish and Amerind…..”

    You mean Spanish and Native American.

    “When it comes to Europeans, experience has proven Franklin wrong. Anglo-America has an excellent track record when it comes to absorbing Europeans”

    You mean the United States has an excellent track record absorbing Europeans and non-Europeans.

    “Just look at the gulf between this”

    No gulf at all. It’s just a matter of personal opinion when it comes to architecture.

    • Replies: @istevefan
    , @syonredux
  79. @jim jones

    It’s an form of deliberate if unconscious humiliation, like in the Soviet Union – forcing people to pay to receive lies and propaganda spun by a nomenklatura who hate them.

  80. Imagine a pop music group coming out of Sweden in the Year 2170. It sure won’t be ABBA! I can see it now: fronted by two short, squat, fat Muslim chicks wearing burka’s. Only, you won’t mind the burka’s b/c they’ll be hiding all that ugliness!

    • Replies: @Pericles
  81. Corvinus says:
    @AnotherDad

    “Corny, why do you bother?”

    Because it clearly is effective rhetoric and leaves you stammering and stuttering. WASPs and nativists were directly opposed to SPECIFIC ethnicities from entering our nation. It did not matter that these particular groups were white, it mattered that they were other than desirable–their mannerisms, their religious beliefs, their cultural lifestyle. These groups, especially those from Eastern and Southern Europe, were deemed to be completely unassimilable. They forever CHANGED the complexion of the United States. So it is absolutely hypocritical for the progeny of those ancestors today to use the same reasons against other groups of people who are trying to enter our shores.

    • LOL: Svigor
    • Replies: @istevefan
    , @megabar
    , @Anonymous
  82. Corvinus says:
    @Cagey Beast

    Reports I heard indicate she put on another shirt after the photoshoot amid a flurry of protestors. Besides, shouldn’t she be making breakfast for her children rather than globe trotting? I thought the Alt Right prefers its womenfolk to make (white) babies and letting the menfolk do all of the building of civilizations.

    • Replies: @Svigor
  83. @Cloudbuster

    This is most definitely what I voted for.

    A plain-speaking American offhandedly talk-slaps Europe’s cuck-elite in a way they can’t ignore.

    Stand by for Trump to become America’s most popular president among ordinary Europeans.

    • Replies: @Scott66
  84. Anonymous[405] • Disclaimer says:
    @foulkes

    The US is a generation ahead of Europe and California is a generation ahead of the US. Lombardy is a generation ahead of California because of the mass migration of southern Italians after World War II. Lombardy is still a nice place.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  85. @Rob McX

    Excellent point. The globalists always refuse to answer such questions.

    Remember there was not any outrage from the leftists when Obama restricted Syrian refugees, setting a quota of 10,000 back in 2015…then raised it to 50,000 while Clinton wanted to admit 100,000 Syrian refugees. When Trump tried to limit the number of refugees to the same limits the Obama administration imposed during his first 5 years in office the left and the media went ballistic. Yet in reality Trump’s refugee policy is closer to that of Obama than Clinton’s plan. While Ibama was able to block millions of refugees from gaining entry , Trump is criticized for restricting millions of refugees from coming to America. Both Obama and Trump have denied entry to 99% of the Africans who seek to migrate to America , yet only Trump faces the constant attacks for restricting immigration. The Globalist refuse to answer the question , how many migrants should we allow in. While most Americans want fewer immigrants, the Globalist want more (how many more is never stated). We allowed 30 million Legal immigrants aver the last 25 years, yet this was not enough, they want another 30 million foreigners over the next decade…yet this is still restrictive since 500 million seek to migrate here over the next decade. Thus even the Globalist probably would acknowledge we need to block 95% of those who seek green cards, while most Americans want to block 99.9% of the foreigners who seek to migrate here.

  86. President Trump bluntly repeated his remarks today, in public, about immigration into Europe being a mistake—at the press conference with Theresa May.

    I wonder if this moment and video clip will simply be memory-holed as a way of avoiding the questions it thrusts, front and center, into the public dialogue on immigration.

    • Replies: @Peter Johnson
  87. @PiltdownMan

    Thanks for the video link — this was Trump at his most valuable for speaking honestly (at 31:51 for those who wish to find it) despite elite threats and MSM censorship. Theresa May, unfortunately, follows Trump’s wonderfully honest and thoughtful take with the usual “diversity is our strength” blather. Will the MSM blackout those honest and sensible remarks by Trump? Unfortunately I suspect that they will. Too large a popular majority will agree with Trump on this, and the democratic will must be blocked by the MSM elite.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  88. @Svigor

    “California is arguably the best real estate on the planet.”

    For investment purposes only.

    Otherwise, it’s a Diversity (TM) infested shithole and no country for white men.

  89. @anony-mouse

    Yes, it’s an early 1970′s book written by a Frenchman named Jean Raspail. Here’s my review of a review by Chris Roberts on VDare.com. The invaders in the book are dot-Indians from “the Ganges” – I guess the region of that wide river valley – coming by rickety boat to the south of France.

    I read the book about 2 years ago, and it is amazing. It’s not an action book, and without spoiling it for you, I can just say only 10 % of the book has any action. This is what makes me state that the English translator, a Mr. Norman Shapiro, does one hell of a job, as the book is about the thoughts and feelings of the different groups of French people, and that’s gotta be lots harder to translate than an action novel.

    Forty-five years ago, though we didn’t have the same type media, Mr. Raspail writes about exactly the same fools that we are dealing with today. It is uncanny how much has NOT changed. I think the phrase is “The more things change …”, but in French. The book is a study on virtue-signalling, before John Derbyshire(?) came up with the term, as a form of cultural suicide.

    I recommend this book to anyone who cares about the existential immigration issue. Just get it from the library.

    • Replies: @Jim Don Bob
  90. @Anonymous

    Wow. POTUS gets a spine and the iSteve thread includes Highlander and Robotech. I should buy a lotto ticket tonight!

  91. Scott66 says:
    @Almost Missouri

    If you watched the Strzok hearing yesterday you saw the full derangement of the democrats on display and any white person watching had to have noticed all the brown faces saying things worthy of banana republics.

    Couple this with the Strzok smirk someone caught and posted on twitter (if you haven’t seen it, google it) and it is becoming clearer and clearer the republic is hanging by a thread. I wonder if this is what Trump is waiting on, the realization of the majority of white Americans that they are about to lose their country and what is coming next is going to be bad, really bad.

    At that point there is only one thing that can be done, call in the military. Clean out Washington. Deport those who shouldn’t be here. Break the republic in order to save the republic.

    • Replies: @Svigor
  92. @Baxter

    California appears to have turned into a upper third world place.
    Is this true? Are people literally fleeing the state now?

    Yes.

    Are people literally fleeing the state now?

    Yes.

    Exit Interview

    Wealthy Exodus to Escape New Tax Rules Worries Californian Democrats

    California’s Overpopulation & Immigration

    California Then & Now

  93. “I Think What Has Happened to Europe Is a Shame”

    Out of the mouths of babes and Donalds…

    What are those people doing to themselves, and why?

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  94. songbird says:
    @The Alarmist

    More like a script for a reality show

    The author did get a few things wrong. Some would knock him for it or be insulted (the Chinese were one of his starving, massed groups) but I still think it is an incredibly brave and prescient book. Although the culture has changed quite a bit – it would be 100x more brave today, or rather be prevented from any mainstream publishing and circulation.

    When I got it, I got it through inter-library loan from a very prestigious private school for the global rich. It must have been gathering dust for years, but would they have made the purchase today?

    • Replies: @The Alarmist
  95. We just got back from 2 weeks in Europe. I have been over 40 times starting in early 90′s. It is sad what is happening.

    In Bordeaux, Fr, we got up one morning and walked towards train station. Two blocks from where we were staying we passed an ‘Arab’ area. It was 8:30 in the morning and we passed an area where about 70 Arab men were sitting at tables smoking and drinking coffee. Not a woman in sight. Also passed the ‘Petite Dubai’ dress shop. My wife was scared to walk past. Thank God it was cool and she was not wearing shorts.

    Very sad.

  96. @Corvinus

    Let’s NOTICE something here. Trump’s ancestors should never have been allowed to be here in the first place. Don’t blame me, blame Benjamin Franklin (1750)…

    I agree. If we’d listened to Franklin then, we wouldn’t need Trump now.

  97. Dave Pinsen says: • Website

    A California Congresswoman calls Trump’s comments white supremacy: https://twitter.com/repjudychu/status/1017771145796481027?s=21

    • Replies: @AndrewR
    , @Almost Missouri
  98. Trump is not abrasive. He just rubs people the wrong way. And that’s his technique.

    He makes these blunt remarks that cause the “sharp intake of breath” in order to draw his quarry into his personal sphere. Once he has gotten their attention, he can engage them one on one, without distractions. He has forced them to focus on him, face to face, Mano a Mano. He has cut them out from the herd, so to speak. He has isolated them from their protective cover, stripped them of their camouflage, singled them out from their protective cocoon of hanger’s ons and personal security.

    Now that he has their undivided attention, he can get down to business, which is what he does best. It’s Trump’s style. Thin-skinned liberals hate it but they confuse his means with his ends because personally, Trump is very engaging and engaged.

    And he’s right to do this. You cannot engage with liberals in a meaningful fashion if they are allowed to remain cocooned in the comfort of their fairy-tale worldview.

  99. @Baxter

    I’ve been running into people fleeing California for the East since the late 1980s. This immediately struck me as odd because I had always regarded California as a destination rather than a source. Indeed, I always thought it would be my destination, though I never got around to it. So I always interrogated them about why they left to return to the old sod of the northeastern states.

    Their answers were usually vague and slightly evasive, as if they were aware of something they didn’t want to admit. It reminded me a little of the way pogrom victims talk about the cause of their exodus*, as if there is some embarrassment about it (e.g., my tribe lost). Were they embarrassed at having failed in the Golden State, or at having found out they really don’t like living among Mexicans and Chinese? As I say, it was very hard to pin them down on particulars.

    Since the Trumpening, I’ve heard clearer answers. One young SanFran refugee was pretty explicit: “scamming foreigners and literal sh*t in the streets”.

    P.S. These people were nearly all middle class white.

    *Or at least the way they used to, now they’ll make up lurid persecution stories if they don’t have one.

  100. @George

    If you are saying that the cuck-elite destroyed the best bulwark against unnecessary African migration, then I agree.

    If you are saying that everyone with a sob story deserves my home, then I don’t.

  101. Sunbeam says:
    @Anonymous

    “Why didn’t we give them Alabama or Kansas? Never mind, we’re giving them all 50.”

    This brings up the question of who “We” is.

    Alabama was a Confederate state. That means one measly square foot of it is worth more in my eyes than the entirety of California, ever.

    Now things don’t have to go sour. I don’t think any of us have any love for the SJW crowd.

    But while I have no hate for anyone from… wherever you are from (probably), I’d fight for Alabama.

    California can take care of itself.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  102. Lowe says:
    @Cloudbuster

    Seriously, Trump is the man.

  103. @Corvinus

    Vox Day is right. Of course getting an ought from that requires him to worship the founding fathers as a font of wisdom. Since Day rejects freedom of speech, freedom of religion and freedom of the press, I’m not sure why you’d think that.

  104. Mj says:
    @Corn

    Here I am, a Pole, strutting around with this puffed up Polish ego when, really, I’m no better than a street-shitter.

  105. Anonymous[229] • Disclaimer says:
    @vinteuil

    It’s a good point, because Rome in AD 409 was still worth a visit. You just wouldn’t want to live there anymore.

  106. @Almost Missouri

    I had always regarded California as a destination rather than a source. Indeed, I always thought it would be my destination, though I never got around to it.

    #Me too. As a midwestern boomer kid i always wanted/expected to go to California. The moreso once i settled on physics. Figured i could end up at Berkeley or Livermore or someplace out there to do the work for my Nobel Prize ;-) Even if i dropped out into industry, i figured there was a good chance i’d be there. Texas was a better fit for the particular physics i was interested in, so that’s where i went. I had some defense industry job offers in SoCal back in the day–early 80s–didn’t pull the trigger on those either. And happy i didn’t do my tech career there also.

    Now AnotherChild#1 is in med school down there and i’m just hoping she gets her dose of California but is ready to move on afterwards and doesn’t put down roots. My big wish is that all the kids marry well and set up shop somewhere not-California where there is “Affordable Family Formation”.

    Sad what happened to California–paradise lost during my lifetime.

  107. AndrewR says:
    @Dave Pinsen

    It would be nice if we had conservatives with balls who would say “if white supremacy got rid of vile anti-white infiltrators like you, Miss Chu, then it wouldn’t be all bad.”

  108. Anonymous[229] • Disclaimer says:
    @Almost Missouri

    Scamming indeed. I am lately finding it harder and harder to conduct business online. The latest trick is to find someone who can write the king’s English just to snooker you in, then hitting you with “solly no speakie de language” once they have your money.

  109. @AnotherDad

    At least Tiny Duck’s trolling is occasionally amusing.

    We in the Motor City know why…

    Corny’s:

    Ducky’s:

    iSteve’s:

    • LOL: res
    • Replies: @res
    , @Hippopotamusdrome
  110. @Percy Gryce

    I only visit on an iPad or iPhone so I wondered if it was the platform, but I’ve been getting DDOS messages from Cloudfare for nearly two weeks now. I guess Ron has finally pissed off the ‘right’ people.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  111. I hereby strongly suggest that David Lynch not use FBI agent Strzok in any new movie that Lynch might do. It wouldn’t be OK, Mr. Lynch. Strzok is spooky.

    • Replies: @Pericles
  112. fish says:
    @Corvinus

    Maybe they should go back!

    I’ll go after you clear out the more recent arrivals Corvy! Get back to me when you have a workable plan.

  113. @Almost Missouri

    the way pogrom victims talk about the cause of their exodus*, as if there is some embarrassment about it (e.g., my tribe lost).

    Funny, I always thought it was more along the lines of, “I only screwed the pooch once, but everybody refused to drop the subject and I needed to find a place where my dog tales wouldn’t follow me..”

    • Replies: @Pericles
  114. Alfa158 says:
    @AnotherDad

    One thing you can say for Corvinus is that he at least tries reading this site and replying. Most Leftists prefer the comfort of their echo chamber and stay away, so we don’t get much debate. It is so bad that the Tiny Duck guy has to pretend to be one of them in order to provide some amusement as a foil. So, I don’t want to drive away what little genuine debate we do get. Ron is also trying to help by running articles from the other side.
    As far as the quality of his arguments, the truly bright old Leftists like John Kenneth Galbraith are extinct. Their ideas have been so discredited by failed attempts to implement them that the only way you can still believe them is to effectively self-lobotimize yourself. The ones who are actually smart when working in their field of law, science, business, etc. will Crimestop themselves from applying those mental skills to social and political issues otherwise they will evolve to ideas that will get them socially ostracized.

  115. fish says:
    @Dave Pinsen

    What’s the point of NATO today?

    Money!

    • Agree: Charles Pewitt
  116. First of all, what is “The Sun”? Is that a newspaper? Secondly, whoever they are, they are making Trump look awfully good with these quotes. They probably don’t intend this.

    • Replies: @James N. Kennett
  117. Alfa158 says:
    @Baxter

    Sorry for the long answer but I was here and watched it happening like a very slow motion implosion of a skyscraper.
    My family moved here in 1962 after waiting 10 years for our green cards so we could emigrate legally to the US. At that time it was not really quite Paradise on Earth, but about as close as you will get. The State population was 16 million and it was referred to as Iowa on the Pacific. Population was 80% White and pretty much segregated. Watts was a scary place and Los Angeles east of the downtown area was Chicano (old line Mexican-American). There were also tiny Japan and Chinatowns. LA was just completing the initial network of freeways connecting the metropolitan areas. If it wasn’t for the terrible air quality you most people wouldn’t complain.
    In 1965 the Hart-Cellar act went into effect and as the involvement in Vietnam ramped up we started getting more Asian immigration as well. At the same time the Baby Boomers were reaching maturity but with prosperity, the pill and higher education their fertility level never got up to replacement levels. Over the next forty years, the US saw an immigration rate of about 3 million people per year between legal and illegal. The Hart Act opened a flood of Asian immigration that hit succeeding peaks with the Vietnamese diaspora and the opening of relations with China. Illegal immigration from Latin America went crazy as employers found they could fill their job openings with cheap labor. Our leaders decided they could import compliant voters, cheap labor and a growing consumer base. The burgeoning immigrant colonies made it easier for people to come in and disappear.
    As to why it happened, it was simply a case of boiling the frog. People were aware that things were changing but went about their lives as if it didn’t affect them, much like the Indians were vaguely aware that Europeans were landing on the Atlantic coast, but nothing to do with me I need to go deer hunting. I have a strong ethnic identity and watched it unfold for 40 years, but n0-one else seemed alarmed by the flood of colonists. Everybody was fat dumb and happy. If I looked at a ballot there wasn’t anyone on it I could even vote for who would do anything about it. Proposition 187 tried to do something, but by then the legal system had been taken over by a Kritarchy and it was simply thrown out.
    The frog has now been boiled. California has a population of at least 40 million (illegals are under-counted) with about 35% still White and we are mostly pretty old. The State has a single party political system with only Democrats able to win state-wide office. They even put in an open primary system so most elections for statewide office have two Democrats running in the finals. State income taxes can be over 15% and the Demos are waiting for the right moment to repeal Prop 13 on property taxes. That would run the annual tax on the average California family home to anywhere from $5,000 a year to $15,000 depending on how urban you neighborhood is.
    I know a lot of people my age who are running for it since so few can afford to live in nice neighborhoods. I’m still here because we live in a coastal Whitopia enclave which is an independent city and is protected by the fact that buying in to a house even a mile from the beach will cost you $1,000 per square foot. As a result the city is hideously White except for the occasional Asian who has cashed out their doggy chew toy factory profits and bought in for cash.
    It is however a tiny island and the writing is on the wall. If I go just a mile and a half east there is a High School that closed during the Baby Bust but is now reopened and in the middle of a building spurt replacing the original single story building with multi-story structures to accommodate the thousands of new Americans. If you stand outside the school at closing time you can watch thousands of kids pouring out and see Not. One. Single. White. Kid.
    The infrastructure was designed to handle that 16 million people and a trickle of Snowbirds. On the 405 freeway through Los Angeles which was designed prior to 1965, if you get on anytime not between 2AM and 6AM, seven days a week you can count on driving about 15 miles per hour through Western Los Angeles. There are continuous road repair projects because the system cant handle the sheer volume.
    Trump’s popularity is partially driven by the fact the complacent Americans in place like Iowa or New England waking up one morning and noticing that their old small town has been occupied by thousands of Guatemalan or Somali colonists and their tax bill is going up 50% to pay for schooling, free health care and law enforcement. And we are still getting 50,000 illegals a month even counting the ones we know about because they are being caught and released, plus about the same number of legal immigrants.
    Very sad, but speaking for myself I see no point in joining my friends who jumping out of my pot because anywhere you go in the US you are simply going to be jumping into another pot. The water temperature is simply not as high yet in the other ones, but the burners are lit nevertheless.

  118. @George

    Now what happened to Libya, that’s a shame. In camp of the saints Europe does not cause the tragedy unlike the destruction of Libya.

    Same old leftist lying and tedious b.s. way, way past it’s sell-by date.

    The West isn’t responsible for the state of 3rd world. It wasn’t mostly even during the colonial period and that’s long past. Nations/civilizations have their own traditions, culture–and genes. And that’s why they are the way they are.

    The West certainly didn’t “destroy” Libya. In any state, if you’re in power there are people out of power who would like to replace you. If you’re a dictator like Gaddafi they have to do it by assassination, coup or civil war. Libya was having a civil war. The West took the rebel side. That helped them win–aided by lots of defections from Gaddafi to the rebels.

    I’m of the “if they don’t do anything to us, let’s stay out of their business” school. And generally against getting involved in such squabbles–including Libya. But Gaddafi was *not* someone who “didn’t do anything to us”, rather he hijacked and blew up our airliners back in the day. If anyone had earned the West’s “attention”, he earned it of his own free will. And Libya was not destroyed.

    This idea that a bunch of dead people–in the Libyan case a few thousands of dead people–and blown up shit destroy a nation is just ridiculous.

    If that was true, “Japan” would not even exist. The US firebombed it’s wooden cities–killing hundreds of thousands and destroying much of its industry–then nuked a couple more. Then they surrendered and were occupied with the US imposing a constitution. And guess what–Japan is still there. More on point the Japanese nation is still there. (And actually was still there even in September of ’45.) If Libya is having problems getting it’s act together post-Gaddafi that’s because of the nature of Libyans–their genes and culture. Maybe they were never a nation?

    In contrast, the Camp of the Saints–injecting foreign, incompatible, low-IQ foreigners by the millions into Europe is actually destroying–i.e. permanently altering and ending–European nations, peoples, civilization.

    There is war–indeed bad–resulting in destruction of people and productive capacity. Then there’s–we are invaded and replaced in our lands. In the first case, new people are born and stuff rebuilt. Only the 2nd case actually destroys a nation.

    • Agree: Stan d Mute
  119. @Rapparee

    With my own long and well-deserved sentence in Purgatory awaiting, I shouldn’t be surprised to bump into him one day with time enough for a lengthy chat.

    “Hey, Jack Kerouac, I think of your mother, and the tears she cried, she cried for none other .. “ Man, for the life of me, I can’t hear or read the words “Jack Kerouac” without having the 10,000 Maniacs in my head for the next day or two. That’s a good thing, though.

    Here is Peak Stupidity on the song and 3 beat guys making it 10,003 maniacs, and we have our own expert and great commenter Paleo Liberal (I think I may have the handle wrong – sorry if that’s the case) whose Dad knew these beat people!

    “but it was Neal Cassady who started me a travellin’. All the stories that he told, I believed them everyone …”

    • Replies: @Stan d Mute
  120. istevefan says:
    @Corvinus

    You mean the United States has an excellent track record absorbing Europeans and non-Europeans.

    No, he means the United States has an excellent track record of absorbing Europeans.

  121. istevefan says:
    @Corvinus

    So, any and all non-English American citizens out there…you have to go back. Even Trump, using Franklin’s and Day’s “logic”.

    No we don’t. Our Founding Father actually signed into law The First Naturalization Act of 1790. This law passed by the First Congress, which consisted of many Founders, outlined what the founding generation wanted for future citizens. Read it and weep.

    Excerpt:

    Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America, in Congress assembled, That any Alien being a free white person, who shall have resided within the limits and under the jurisdiction of the United States for the term of two years, may be admitted to become a citizen thereof on application to any common law Court of record in any one of the States wherein he shall have resided for the term of one year at least, and making proof to the satisfaction of such Court that he is a person of good character, and taking the oath or affirmation prescribed by law to support the Constitution of the United States, which Oath or Affirmation such Court shall administer, and the Clerk of such Court shall record such Application, and the proceedings thereon; and thereupon such person shall be considered as a Citizen of the United States.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
  122. istevefan says:
    @Corvinus

    So it is absolutely hypocritical for the progeny of those ancestors today to use the same reasons against other groups of people who are trying to enter our shores.

    First, since when does hypocrisy become the overriding reason to do, or not to do something? Decisions should be based upon what is the best course of action. Hypocrisy has nothing to do with that.

    Second, the antecedents of today’s progeny chose America over all other New World nations, most especially the Latin ones. So why on earth would we want to change the USA into something more resembling a Latin nation which would be the polar opposite of what our ancestors wanted? It is our duty to preserve the nation to which our ancestors wished to join.

  123. @Dave Pinsen

  124. MG says:
    @julius caesar

    Mexicans have a FAR BETTER work ethic than Indians or Pakistanis.

  125. istevefan says:
    @George

    Now what happened to Libya, that’s a shame. In camp of the saints Europe does not cause the tragedy unlike the destruction of Libya.

    The current non-white, invasion-level of immigration did not just begin with the destruction of Libya. Even if Colonel Gaddafi were still in charge, it would not change the fact that Europe has been busily importing non-whites for over 50 years. Enoch Powell was sounding the alarm in 1968.

    Though I agree that destroying Libya and Syria was horrible, let’s not pretend that immigration became a problem in only the past 4 years. This problem has been in the making for over 50 years.

  126. @songbird

    It would be brutally repressed.

  127. @OilcanFloyd

    I don’t know about Trump; but to me, “diversifying” Europe feels different than diversifying any country in the Americas. I mean, Latin America was ethnically diverse from the begining; I don’t dread diversity in it, though certainly wouldn’t like to see these countries trampled by new immigrants. The US had the Indians and the blacks from an early date, though in much smaller numbers. In a way, racial diversity has always been part of the New World and has inevitably shaped some of our culture; not so in Europe, the original land that gave us most of our culture and history. If Europe gets changed, it’s like the whole past has been destroyed.

    Maybe Trump feels the same, and hence the quote?

  128. Pericles says:
    @VivaLaMigra

    Imagine a pop music group coming out of Sweden in the Year 2170.

    I can hear … ululations …

  129. res says:
    @Stan d Mute

    Literally LOL. Multiple times.

  130. @Alfa158

    I came to California in 1974 (24 years old). Although I have lived mostly in the rural areas of the state, I saw much the same process as you describe.

  131. Pericles says:
    @Charles Pewitt

    Now we know where Killer BOB went.

  132. Pericles says:
    @Stan d Mute

    “I only screwed the pooch once, but everybody refused to drop the subject and I needed to find a place where my dog tales wouldn’t follow me..”

    “OK, maybe it was once, maybe it was 109 times. It doesn’t matter, does it?”

  133. @e

    Agree.

    It’s rare to hear actual truth telling from the President.

    This is what i voted for. When the establishment continuously lies, simply telling obvious truths becomes a revolutionary act.

  134. @Achmed E. Newman

    “but it was Neal Cassady who started me a travellin’. All the stories that he told, I believed them everyone …”

    Uh-oh, I think you just outed Sailer. Some say Sailer is literally Neal Cassady, that he never died on the railroad tracks but gave up his Merry Pranksterism and stopped driving Further to go into marketing. Later, he used the writing skills Kerouac and Kesey taught him to begin blogging. It would explain his frenetic posting flurries wouldn’t it?

    Is iSteve the nom de plume of iNeal?

  135. Rob McX says:

    Trump’s comments on immigration and Brexit give me the impression of someone who feels a connection with Britain, possibly because his mother was born there. You don’t usually get that from US presidents. Despite all their schmoozing with British rulers and “special relationship” waffle, they give the impression of being remote from the concerns of ordinary Brits.

  136. @Stan d Mute

    You could be a redneck if … your motorboat is powered by an electric drill.

  137. @Achmed E. Newman

    You can also find it as a pdf on the web.

  138. megabar says:
    @Corvinus

    There is a kernel of truth in what you say. However, just because an argument is incorrect, does not mean that the opposite of that argument is correct, or that future versions of the same argument, applied to a different scenario must necessarily be incorrect as well.

    Degrees matter. South/East Europeans are no doubt somewhat different from West Europeans, in terms of IQ and personality traits. But they’re not dramatically different. And they did indeed assimilate, perhaps with a few speed bumps that were partially due to malleable cultural differences that have since been given up. If there is lingering between-group resentment on the part of any of these European ethnicities in the US, it has escaped my observation.

    In contrast, it does not appear to me that Africans or, to a lesser degree Hispanics, are making significant progress into full assimilation. I suspect that this is because the genetic differences between African or Guatemalan and Italian are larger than the difference between Italian and English.

    It is possible that if we could go back in time and eliminate all Italian/Polish/German immigrants into the US, that the country would look different. It’s even possible that the country would be better, though that is far from certain.

    However, what we do know is that with those immigrants, the country was great. It was integrated and free from conflict between Euro groups. If anything, American politics, including those S/E Euros, were at least as liberal (classically liberal; the good kind) as Western European countries.

    In other words, the original Americans who opposed German, Italian and Polish immigration were at least partially wrong about its consequences. That does not mean that a similar argument against African immigration must be incorrect as well.

    BTW, what exactly is your position on this? Do you support high degrees of immigration into Western nations, do you wish that S/E Europeans could be kicked out, or something else entirely?

    • Replies: @Corvinus
  139. Anonymous[337] • Disclaimer says:
    @Stan d Mute

    If the evidence and arguments presented on UNZ.COM were manifestly false or ridiculous, there’d be no need to try and silence them by whatever means necessary. So these constant and intensifying attacks are indeed telling.

  140. Anonymous[337] • Disclaimer says:
    @Sunbeam

    I’ve nothing against Alabama–or Kansas for that matter.

    How about New Mexico? No matter really, because as I said above “Never mind, we’re giving them all 50.”

  141. @Cagey Beast

    UKIP’s symbol is a pound sign. A pound sign! Identitarians use as their symbol the marker the Spartans put on their shields when they drove back the Persian Empire. That’s the difference between vestigial cuckservatism and Identitarianism in a nutshell.

    UKIP was neither vestigially cuckservative nor strongly identitarian. The pound sign was quite appropriate for its battle, symbolising opposition to the Euro currency, which has been a one-way trip to poverty and serfdom for several European countries. There literally is no “Plan B” for the citizens of Greece, Cyprus, Italy, Spain or Portugal. They will continue to suffer until they migrate to the economic centre – a circle of radius 500km centred on Frankfurt.

  142. @jim jones

    The UK media are as out of touch with the general population as the US ones, the BBC are so bad that I threw away my TV just to avoid paying the license fee

    Try Mail Online – it not only has a different perspective, it covers stories that are too hot for the BBC to handle.

    • Replies: @Jim Don Bob
  143. @Ivan Titanium

    First of all, what is “The Sun”? Is that a newspaper? Secondly, whoever they are, they are making Trump look awfully good with these quotes. They probably don’t intend this.

    It is a large-circulation right-wing tabloid owned by Rupert Murdoch and not known for targeting high-IQ readers.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  144. @Autochthon

    California appears to have turned into a upper third world place.
    Is this true? Are people literally fleeing the state now?

    Yes.

    Wealthy Exodus to Escape New Tax Rules Worries Californian Democrats

    High taxation, impossible real-estate prices, businesses relocating, white flight … surely California is sufficiently wealthy that it can survive these changes.

    The good citizens of Detroit probably thought the same thing.

  145. Svigor says:
    @Corvinus

    Hey, join the altright and you’ll have a say.

  146. Svigor says:
    @Scott66

    I was impressed by Strzok’s facility with deception. He was doomed by his record, so his talent wound up being counterproductive – he seemed just as honest delivering the obvious lie that it’s ridiculous to think he believed what he texted to his doxy about NoVA residents, as he did delivering the rest of his testimony.

    But it was really interesting to get such a close look at a sociopath working under pressure.

    • Replies: @Anon
  147. Anon[152] • Disclaimer says:
    @Svigor

    I don’t get it. You were impressed by his facility. But his talent was counterproductive? What are you referring to?

    • Replies: @Svigor
  148. @James N. Kennett

    Try Mail Online – it not only has a different perspective, it covers stories that are too hot for the BBC to handle.

    The DailyMail covers stories that I never see on the MSM.

  149. MBlanc46 says:
    @Rapparee

    Thanks for the kind words about Kerouac. At the end of his life he repudiated the anti-Americanism that evolved in the counterculture. Like a lot of children of immigrants, he loved his country. Unfortunately, mental illness pretty much ruined his life.

    • Replies: @Malcolm X-Lax
  150. @Jim Don Bob

    Thanks, JDB (for pointing this out to the other readers, that is.)

  151. Svigor says:
    @Anon

    Because it destroyed his credibility. If you catch a guy telling a lie convincingly, you now know he’s a convincing liar and you can’t trust anything he says. So his entire convincing performance is wasted.

    • Replies: @Anon
  152. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Anon

    Now, Ireland has Somali mayors and a gay Indian leader. Within the short short span of my life, Ireland went from a nation so rabid to defend its self concept of Home and kin that they bombed Canary Wharf and fielded hand-me-down Armalites and RPGs against Europe’s premiere Army to a place where gay Indians would get elected.
    Europe has changed at absolutely break-neck speeds

    And it’s not immigration that is doing the damage. The cultural degeneracy comes first, it destroys what used to be referred to as the moral fibre of a nation. Once that has been achieved it is inevitable that the demoralised populace will seek its own destruction by throwing open the gates to the invaders.

    It’s the cultural degeneracy that is the problem. Ireland is being overrun because the Irish have abandoned their religion, their beliefs, their traditions, their culture. They have already ceased to be Irish before the first immigrant/invader arrives.

    That’s what Trump entirely fails to understand. He thinks you can lose the culture war (or simply surrender rather than fighting it) but still win the demographic war. You can’t. Trump has some greatness in him but he is tragically flawed. He has spent too long wallowing in American’s cultural cesspit.

  153. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Peter Johnson

    and the democratic will must be blocked by the MSM elite.

    Democratic will? We’re talking about Britain, right? Britain is a post-democratic society. They still have elections but they’re only for show.

  154. Anon[382] • Disclaimer says:
    @Svigor

    Interesting, thanks.

    Do you think he performed well in the eyes of others (excepting your keen-eyed self)?

    • Replies: @Svigor
  155. Anonymous[337] • Disclaimer says:
    @James N. Kennett

    “She reads the stars, he reads the Sun / No wonder his IQ is below 21″

  156. Anonymous[337] • Disclaimer says:
    @Autochthon

    Wealthy Exodus to Escape New Tax Rules Worries Californian Democrats

    Let us know when they get around to rescinding Prop 13.

    Millionaires paying a pittance for property tax, so long as they don’t move.

  157. Anonymous[255] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous

    Southern Italians are not like Sub-Saharan Africans, and no one has ever said they were, except for nitwits like corvinus.

  158. Anonymous[255] • Disclaimer says:
    @Colin Wright

    They are attempting to commit mass suicide, because they have been trained that way.

  159. MBlanc46 says:
    @Stan d Mute

    Comment of the week, maybe month.

  160. @Stan d Mute

    iNeal! You may be onto something. Did they make Red Bull back then, cause if that was Neal Cassady there, man, he was on something strong, unless the video is sped up by 2 X! We will know …. iSteve is a reincarnated, man …. of the beat scene, Daddio, if …… some of his writing …. starts heading in this direction….. stream of …. like something, man …. going back he’s too tired to blog …. Loma Prieta in the mountain fog …. on the hills above Santa Cruz … in the place where he spent his youth.

    “Lost now on the country miles in his Cadillac on his Nordic Trac.
    You can tell by the way she smiles, he’s rollin’ back.
    Come wash the nighttime clean.
    Oh, grow the scorched ground green.
    Blow the horn and tap the tambourine.”

    “Close the gap of the dark years in between,
    you and me, Cassidy.”

    Check this live Dead out – note, as Peak Stupidity noted in “Maestroes- doing the jobs that possibly nobody needs to do”, what do you need a maestro for when you can just yell across the stage “HEY!”, as in “End the guitar solo, Jerry, it’s time to wrap this one up.”?

    • Replies: @Stan d Mute
  161. Romanian says: • Website
    @vinteuil

    And, believe me – you would love Russia & Poland & Czechia & Slovakia & Hungary. Maybe even Romania & Serbia & Croatia.

    Wait, why aren’t we with the other guys? Also, what is wrong with Croatia? Dubrovnik and more! Best Italian Renaissance architecture outside Italy.

    • Replies: @vinteuil
  162. Svigor says:
    @Anon

    That’s just it, it doesn’t rely on good perception. On the contrary, I didn’t suss him out as a liar because I’m good at it. If you watch his testimony you’ll see what I mean. It was like a great actor with a horrible script. If his texts about NoVAs and Trump voters being ignorant hillbillies, about how he could SMELL the Trump voters in Wal-Mart, if they weren’t on record then we could easily believe that he respects Trump voters and Wal-Mart customers. But they are, so we can’t, and he has zero credibility and we’re left to admire his ability to lie. He might as well have been trying to sell air conditioning on an ice floe.

  163. @Svigor

    People think I’m joking when I say I want to return to California from Arizona with an Army to take back the state. I already have my home picked out. It’s the one Barbra Streisand currently occupies in Malibu.

  164. @MBlanc46

    According to Ginsburg Kerouac and his mother used to make jokes about the Holocaust, too. So, it’s fair to say, Jack was no liberal.

  165. @Jim Don Bob

    Search “camp of the saints pdf”.

  166. Nonam says:

    The graph is irrelevant and a non-sequitur in visual form. It shows the population for regions, not the subsets and demographic population of Europe, which is what is being talked about in the first place. The 4 billion in Sub-Saharan Africa can be a population of green-skinned mutants from Mars that are registered as Legal Entities, or they can equal parts white, black, latino, asian, etc., which might be equal parts, Russian, Scottish, Japanese, Egyptian, and Puerto Rican, etc. The same can be said for Europe and the Middle-East.

    • Replies: @AnotherDad
  167. syonredux says:
    @Corvinus

    “Works out OK….unlike, say, Spanish and Amerind…..”

    You mean Spanish and Native American.

    No, I meant Amerind.

    “When it comes to Europeans, experience has proven Franklin wrong. Anglo-America has an excellent track record when it comes to absorbing Europeans”

    You mean the United States has an excellent track record absorbing Europeans and non-Europeans.

    Sorry, but no. Non-Europeans have proved quite resistant.

    “Just look at the gulf between this”

    No gulf at all. It’s just a matter of personal opinion when it comes to architecture.

    Massive gulf, dear fellow.The Smithsonian’s African-American Museum is meant to reflect an African aesthetic:

    From one perspective, the building’s architecture follows classical Greco-Roman form in its use of a base and shaft, topped by a capital or corona. For our Museum, the corona is inspired by the three-tiered crowns used in Yoruban art from West Africa. Moreover, the building’s main entrance is a welcoming porch, which has architectural roots in Africa and throughout the African Diaspora, especially the American South and Caribbean. Finally, by wrapping the entire building in an ornamental bronze-colored metal lattice, Adjaye pays homage to the intricate ironwork crafted by enslaved African Americans in Louisiana, South Carolina, and elsewhere.

    The Smithsonian Museum of American Art, in contrast, is pure Greek Revival.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
  168. @Achmed E. Newman

    Check this live Dead out

    Good stuff and I’m not even a Dead fan. I’m still trying to figure out how to work some Zappa into an iSteve comment. He was full of Steve like wisdom:

  169. @Nonam

    The graph is irrelevant and a non-sequitur in visual form. It shows the population for regions, not the subsets and demographic population of Europe, which is what is being talked about in the first place.

    Back in the real world the graph is perfectly adequate to give any intelligent person a reasonable handle on what’s going on and the magnitude of the crisis that a laissez-faire “let them come” policy will create.

  170. Corvinus says:
    @istevefan

    “This law passed by the First Congress, which consisted of many Founders, outlined what the founding generation wanted for future citizens.”

    You mean for citizens in the foreseeable future. Remember, the Irish and the Germans of the 1850′s, and later the Italians, Slavs, and Poles of the 1890′s, were European and white…but undesirable.

    “First, since when does hypocrisy become the overriding reason to do, or not to do something?”

    In matters of law and religion, for starters.

    “Second, the antecedents of today’s progeny chose America over all other New World nations, most especially the Latin ones.”

    Probably because of the economic opportunities and political liberties. Remember, you didn’t build that.

    “No, he means the United States has an excellent track record of absorbing Europeans.”

    And non-Europeans.

  171. Corvinus says:
    @megabar

    There is a kernel of truth in what you say. However, just because an argument is incorrect, does not mean that the opposite of that argument is correct, or that future versions of the same argument, applied to a different scenario must necessarily be incorrect as well.

    “Degrees matter. South/East Europeans are no doubt somewhat different from West Europeans, in terms of IQ and personality traits. But they’re not dramatically different.”

    According to Franklin, nativists, and WASPs, they would say those differences were insurmountable. Yet, indeed, Southern and Eastern Europeans immersed themselves into the dominant culture.

    “And they did indeed assimilate, perhaps with a few speed bumps that were partially due to malleable cultural differences that have since been given up.”

    Similar to non-European groups who have been in the States for several generations.

    “In contrast, it does not appear to me that Africans or, to a lesser degree Hispanics, are making significant progress into full assimilation.”

    Actually, Hispanics are assimilating…

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2018/02/02/a-new-report-says-more-hispanic-identity-is-fading-is-that-really-good-for-america/?utm_term=.f1edc7fd4b27

    https://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/21/sunday-review/hispanics-the-new-italians.html

    and so are immigrant blacks.

    http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/04/09/6-key-findings-about-black-immigration/

    http://research.msu.edu/african-immigrants-race-and-gender-impact-economic-success/

    “I suspect that this is because the genetic differences between African or Guatemalan and Italian are larger than the difference between Italian and English.”

    It could be genetic differences, or it could be environmental differences, or it could be a combination of both.

    “It is possible that if we could go back in time and eliminate all Italian/Polish/German immigrants into the US, that the country would look different.”

    Not just demographically, but technologically as well.

    “It’s even possible that the country would be better, though that is far from certain.”

    Indeed, far from certain.

    “In other words, the original Americans who opposed German, Italian and Polish immigration were at least partially wrong about its consequences.”

    More than “partially wrong”. Entirely wrong.

    “BTW, what exactly is your position on this? Do you support high degrees of immigration into Western nations, do you wish that S/E Europeans could be kicked out, or something else entirely?”

    I believe we must restrict immigration, and enforce current laws on the books. However, I am opposed to the position that non-Europeans are an “overt danger” to our society and are utterly incapable of being assimilated.

    • Replies: @syonredux
    , @megabar
  172. syonredux says:
    @Corvinus

    “No, I meant Amerind.”

    No, Native American.

    Amerind for me, native American for thee…..

    “Sorry, but no. Non-Europeans have proved quite resistant.”

    Actually, Hispanics are assimilating…

    Wake me when Latinx identity is as meaningless as German-American….

    Massive gulf, dear fellow.”

    A matter of opinion.

    The opinion of the Blacks who had it built……

    From one perspective, the building’s architecture follows classical Greco-Roman form in its use of a base and shaft, topped by a capital or corona. For our Museum, the corona is inspired by the three-tiered crowns used in Yoruban art from West Africa. Moreover, the building’s main entrance is a welcoming porch, which has architectural roots in Africa and throughout the African Diaspora, especially the American South and Caribbean. Finally, by wrapping the entire building in an ornamental bronze-colored metal lattice, Adjaye pays homage to the intricate ironwork crafted by enslaved African Americans in Louisiana, South Carolina, and elsewhere

    .

    • Replies: @Corvinus
  173. syonredux says:
    @Corvinus

    and so are immigrant blacks.

    http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/04/09/6-key-findings-about-black-immigration/

    http://research.msu.edu/african-immigrants-race-and-gender-impact-economic-success/

    Dear fellow, we haven’t even absorbed the Blacks who have been here for three hundred years……These immigrant Blacks are simply absorbed into the African-American category……

  174. syonredux says:
    @Corvinus

    I believe we must restrict immigration, and enforce current laws on the books. However, I am opposed to the position that non-Europeans are an “overt danger” to our society and are utterly incapable of being assimilated.

    I’ll invoke Taleb. Do you have skin in the game? Are you European?

  175. megabar says:
    @Corvinus

    > According to Franklin, nativists, and WASPs, they would say those differences were insurmountable.

    I’ve already indicated that I think those arguments were wrong. Just because they were wrong doesn’t mean I am — the circumstances are different.

    > Similar to non-European groups who have been in the States for several generations.

    > Actually, Hispanics are assimilating…

    Sure, anyone will assimilate, to a degree. The question isn’t whether an immigrant people adopts the language or considers themselves American, but how similar to the native population they wind up being. Ultimately, do they change the national character (political bent, social mores, economic output, crime levels, etc).

    There are two factors involved: the difference between the peoples involved, and the number of immigrants. The US could no doubt absorb without much issue, say 5% of its population in Mexicans. Many Mexicans are good, honest people. However, at 40% of the population, the US will start to resemble Mexico more and the US less. It also matters which group of Mexicans we take in, as I believe that Hispanics are a quite varied people, due to its recent race mixing.

    Small numbers of radically different people cause problems in other ways. People notice the outcome inequality, and therefore it causes racial tension.

    Comparing Mexicans to the original Italian immigrants is a bit of a stretch. Sure, there are similarities in some ways, but that does not mean that the two people are the same. Indeed, we have evidence that they are not. Compare Italy in any number of metrics with Central and South American nations.

    > It could be genetic differences, or it could be environmental differences, or it could be a combination of both.

    Of course it’s both. Environment matters, too. But genetics can’t be changed.

    > and so are immigrant blacks.

    This is compatible with a genetic argument. Legal African immigrants are likely more talented than their countrymen. And so they achieve more, suggesting that effects of oppression are exaggerated. In the US, you rise to your talent.

    > However, I am opposed to the position that non-Europeans are an “overt danger” to our society and are utterly incapable of being assimilated.

    I would agree with this if you could convince me that the genetic component of group differences was trivial. Currently, I think genetics is a major component of the differences. You acknowledged the possibility of a genetic component. But it’s really the crux of the matter. Do you think there are genetic differences between racial groups? If so, what psychological traits do think are affected by the genetics?

    • Replies: @Corvinus
  176. vinteuil says:
    @Romanian

    Romanian – agreed, and no disrespect intended. But Romania/Serbia/Croatia are less developed as tourist destinations, and a little more challenging for inexperienced travelers.

    I first attempted Romania on my own a month ago, for about a week, and can’t wait to go back.

  177. Corvinus says:
    @syonredux

    “Wake me when Latinx identity is as meaningless as German-American….”

    Latino, or Hispanic identity. And as far as German-American identity is concerned, it is alive and kicking in the United States. Quite meaningful, actually.

    “The opinion of the Blacks who had it built.”

    Right, an opinion regarding architecture.

    “Dear fellow, we haven’t even absorbed the Blacks…”

    Actually, black people have assimilated into our nation. You’re not being accurate here.

    “I’ll invoke Taleb. Do you have skin in the game? Are you European?”

    I am American with Dutch, German, and Polish descent. So two of my ethnicities were decidedly looked down upon by nativists.

    • Replies: @syonredux
  178. Corvinus says:
    @megabar

    “I’ve already indicated that I think those arguments were wrong. Just because they were wrong doesn’t mean I am — the circumstances are different.”

    Actually, the circumstances are similar in nature–a group of nativists, or “Heritage Americans”, who are opposed to certain immigrant groups because they feel that America’s national character will be swamped.

    “Ultimately, do they change the national character (political bent, social mores, economic output, crime levels, etc).”

    And nativists in the 1850′s and in the early 1900′s were very clear in how Germans, the Irish, Italians, Slavs, and Poles would fundamentally, and detrimentally, alter our society. It wasn’t about these groups being white, it was about these groups being radically different than the “founding stock”.

    “There are two factors involved: the difference between the peoples involved, and the number of immigrants. The US could no doubt absorb without much issue, say 5% of its population in Mexicans.”

    I think that is way too much. As I stated before, we should limit the number of people entering our nation.

    “Many Mexicans are good, honest people.”

    Exactly! And the Germans, Irish, Italians, Slavs, and Poles felt the same way. Funny how the nativists painted a dramatically different picture, with some of those great-great-great grandchildre now invoking the same arguments as nativists that put non-European immigrants in a decided negative light.

    “However, at 40% of the population, the US will start to resemble Mexico more and the US less.”

    You do realize that the same argument employed by nativists when millions of non-WASPs “invaded”. It looks like nativist fears failed to materialize.

    “Small numbers of radically different people cause problems in other ways. People notice the outcome inequality, and therefore it causes racial tension.”

    Racial or ethnic tension.

    “Comparing Mexicans to the original Italian immigrants is a bit of a stretch.”

    The Italian who came here said the same thing…they are just like the “Founding Stock”. Except many people did not buy into that notion. Now, certainly Mexicans and Italians are similar in why they come here and how they go about their business trying to immerse themselves into our society through a couple of generations.

    “I would agree with this if you could convince me that the genetic component of group differences was trivial.”

    It’s not trivial, but it’s also not as pronounced as our host or other members of the Alt Right believe it is.

    “Currently, I think genetics is a major component of the differences.”

    And I am not in that camp. I would say genetics and environment each play their part, with scientists from both sides puffing up their own side. Unfortunately, politics is infiltrating the scientific realm on an even grander scale.

    “Do you think there are genetic differences between racial groups? If so, what psychological traits do think are affected by the genetics?”

    Depends upon how much skin one has in the game.

    There is this article…

    http://sitn.hms.harvard.edu/flash/2017/science-genetics-reshaping-race-debate-21st-century/

    And then there is this article…

    https://vdare.com/articles/the-race-faq

    It would seem to me that the truth lies somewhere in the middle. Where? Really do not know.

    • Replies: @res
    , @syonredux
    , @megabar
  179. res says:
    @Corvinus

    “I would agree with this if you could convince me that the genetic component of group differences was trivial.”

    It’s not trivial, but it’s also not as pronounced as our host or other members of the Alt Right believe it is.

    “Currently, I think genetics is a major component of the differences.”

    And I am not in that camp. I would say genetics and environment each play their part, with scientists from both sides puffing up their own side. Unfortunately, politics is infiltrating the scientific realm on an even grander scale.

    So in your omniscient view (since you know both the reality and what everyone else believes), what proportion (numerical percentage) of the US black-white gap in IQ do you think is genetic?

    Here is what a survey of IQ experts returned: http://www.unz.com/jthompson/who-are-the-iq-experts/

    P.S. You are right about that 100% percent environment side being puffed up. The other end, not so much.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
  180. syonredux says:
    @Corvinus

    Wake me when Latinx identity is as meaningless as German-American….”

    Latino, or Hispanic identity. And as far as German-American identity is concerned, it is alive and kicking in the United States. Quite meaningful, actually.

    Really? I must have missed all those articles in the NYTIMES about the German-American voting bloc, demands for more German-American culture on TV,calls for a separate German-American Smithsonian, etc…..

    “The opinion of the Blacks who had it built.”

    Right, an opinion regarding architecture.

    Architecture is an expression of cultural identity…..

    Dear fellow, we haven’t even absorbed the Blacks…”

    Actually, black people have assimilated into our nation. You’re not being accurate here.

    No, they haven’t. The fundamental divide in Anglo-America is the one between Black and White.

    I am American with Dutch, German, and Polish descent. So two of my ethnicities were decidedly looked down upon by nativists.

    So, you’re a White American cuck……

    • Replies: @Corvinus
  181. syonredux says:
    @Corvinus

    “Comparing Mexicans to the original Italian immigrants is a bit of a stretch.”

    The Italian who came here said the same thing…they are just like the “Founding Stock”. Except many people did not buy into that notion. Now, certainly Mexicans and Italians are similar in why they come here and how they go about their business trying to immerse themselves into our society through a couple of generations.

    Ah, let me count the ways that Latinx differ from Italians….

    Racially: Italians are European, Latinx (at least the bulk of the ones immigrating to the USA) are largely Mestizo and Amerind….

    Geographically: Italy is really far away……whereas the USA has a land border with a Latinx country….

    Old Grudges: The Latinx have a claim on Anglo-American territory (Mexican War)….that wasn’t the case with the Italians…..

    Culturally:

    Italy is central to European Civilization:

    The Latinx coming to Anglo-America represent a different spirit…..

    • Replies: @res
  182. Corvinus says:
    @res

    “What proportion (numerical percentage) of the US black-white gap in IQ do you think is genetic?”

    Great question. Still a matter of fierce debate. I would say it’s not as high as some people believe it is.

    “Here is what a survey of IQ experts returned…”

    Is there a list available of these experts who contributed to the data?

    “P.S. You are right about that 100% percent environment side being puffed up.”

    That would a strawman on your part, as I never directly or indirectly made that comment.

    • Replies: @res
  183. res says:
    @syonredux

    Ah, let me count the ways that Latinx differ from Italians….

    As you have no doubt noticed, Corvinus is a “master” of the false equivalency. That is probably his favorite fallacy.

    • Replies: @syonredux
  184. res says:
    @Corvinus

    Great question. Still a matter of fierce debate. I would say it’s not as high as some people believe it is.

    You really are a piece of work. Coward.

    Is there a list available of these experts who contributed to the data?

    I gave a link. Follow it.

    “P.S. You are right about that 100% percent environment side being puffed up.”

    That would a strawman on your part, as I never directly or indirectly made that comment.

    From your comment 182 (emphasis mine):

    And I am not in that camp. I would say genetics and environment each play their part, with scientists from both sides puffing up their own side. Unfortunately, politics is infiltrating the scientific realm on an even grander scale.

    That is how one effectively rebuts an accusation of fallacy.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
  185. Corvinus says:
    @syonredux

    “I must have missed all those articles in the NYTIMES about the German-American voting bloc, demands for more German-American culture on TV,calls for a separate German-American Smithsonian.”

    They had their day in court, Sparky. All invaders, I mean immigrants, go through the process.

    https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=102523977

    “In other words, there were taxpayer-funded bilingual public schools in the U.S. a century ago. How did that happen? “The simplest explanation is ethnic politics, ethnic lobbying,” Kamphoefner says, “especially just after the Civil War, when the German vote was kind of up for grabs.” Not that the notion wasn’t contentious. In 1889, Wisconsin and Illinois passed laws mandating that schools teach only in English. But Kamphoefner says the ethnic backlash was strong, and the laws were soon repealed. He has come across evidence that as late as 1917, a German version of the “Star Spangled Banner” was still being sung in public schools in Indianapolis.”

    “Architecture is an expression of cultural identity.”

    And a matter of opinion as to what culture has “better” art or architecture.

    “No, they haven’t. The fundamental divide in Anglo-America is the one between Black and White.”

    No, blacks have assimilated in the United States. And, yes, there is still a divide between black and white. Progress has been made, however. Do try to keep up, dear.

    “So, you’re a White American cuck…”

    No, just an American. Cuck is gutter language. I thought you were high society.

    “Ah, let me count the ways that Latinx differ from Italians….”

    But the most important similarity is that the Italians, just like the Mexicans, were viewed by nativists as other than being capable of assimilation. Which we know is observably false.

    “The Latinx coming to Anglo-America represent a different spirit…..”

    You mean Latinos or Hispanics in the United States representing…

    https://americanart.si.edu/art/highlights/latino

    https://www.britannica.com/art/Latin-American-architecture

    Again, it’s a matter of personal taste. No definitive “right” or “wrong” here.

    • Replies: @syonredux
    , @syonredux
  186. Corvinus says:
    @res

    “You really are a piece of work. Coward.”

    A coward would not have responded. You simply did not like my response.

    “I gave a link. Follow it.”

    I did. It contained no list of respondents. Again, do you know who participated in this inquiry? Although there were two interesting pieces of information. First, about 75% of the respondents said they were adherents to Jensenism. Could there not be confirmation bias on their part, similar if the supermajority were opponents to Jensenism? Second, education was rated as the most important factor of international ability differences by these experts. Genetics was rated as the second most relevant cause, but had the highest variability in ratings. Other important factors were culture, health, wealth, modernity, and politics.

    “That is how one effectively rebuts an accusation of fallacy.”

    Actually, I simply said both sides are being “puffed up” due to politics. You added your own commentary to accentuate your own point, not my point. If you were being acutely honest here, you would have said that I was right that 100% of the environment AND hereditary side is being puffed up.

    • LOL: res
  187. syonredux says:
    @Corvinus

    “I must have missed all those articles in the NYTIMES about the German-American voting bloc, demands for more German-American culture on TV,calls for a separate German-American Smithsonian.”

    They had their day in court, Sparky. All invaders, I mean immigrants, go through the process.

    https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=102523977

    “In other words, there were taxpayer-funded bilingual public schools in the U.S. a century ago. How did that happen? “The simplest explanation is ethnic politics, ethnic lobbying,” Kamphoefner says, “especially just after the Civil War, when the German vote was kind of up for grabs.” Not that the notion wasn’t contentious. In 1889, Wisconsin and Illinois passed laws mandating that schools teach only in English. But Kamphoefner says the ethnic backlash was strong, and the laws were soon repealed. He has come across evidence that as late as 1917, a German version of the “Star Spangled Banner” was still being sung in public schools in Indianapolis.”

    Rather my point, dear fellow. When will being Latinx be as meaningless as being German-American? 50 years? 75?100?

    “Architecture is an expression of cultural identity.”

    And a matter of opinion as to what culture has “better” art or architecture.

    Wasn’t commenting on the quality, dear fellow; I was noting how architecture expresses cultural identity….And the Blacks who commissioned the African-American Museum in DC wanted a style of architecture that is antithetical to Anglo-American culture….

    “No, they haven’t. The fundamental divide in Anglo-America is the one between Black and White.”

    No, blacks have assimilated in the United States. And, yes, there is still a divide between black and white. Progress has been made, however. Do try to keep up, dear.

    You must not hang out on university campuses, dear fellow. If Blacks had been absorbed into Anglo-America, we wouldn’t have that oh-so-African museum in Washington….And terms like African-American and Black American would sound as quaint and antiquated as German-American…

    “So, you’re a White American cuck…”

    No, just an American. Cuck is gutter language. I thought you were high society.

    Sometimes only forceful language will do….And you are cucking quite hard…..

    You mean Latinos or Hispanics in the United States representing…

    Again, you need to start associating with the younger generation…..Latinx is the word of the future….

    https://americanart.si.edu/art/highlights/latino

    https://www.britannica.com/art/Latin-American-architecture

    Again, it’s a matter of personal taste. No definitive “right” or “wrong” here.

    Who’s speaking of right and wrong, dear fellow? I’m talking about cultural identity…..the gulf between the European

    And the Amerind…..

    • Replies: @Corvinus
  188. syonredux says:
    @res

    Ah, let me count the ways that Latinx differ from Italians….

    As you have no doubt noticed, Corvinus is a “master” of the false equivalency. That is probably his favorite fallacy.

    Yeah, it’s pretty amazing how he thinks that this

    Is the same as this

  189. syonredux says:
    @Corvinus

    Ah, let me count the ways that Latinx differ from Italians….”

    But the most important similarity is that the Italians, just like the Mexicans, were viewed by nativists as other than being capable of assimilation. Which we know is observably false.

    I’m sorry, but that is the silliest rejoinder that I have encountered in some time. I’ve just pointed out several rather important ways in which Latinx differ from Italians:

    Racially: Italians are European, Latinx (at least the bulk of the ones immigrating to the USA) are largely Mestizo and Amerind….

    Geographically: Italy is really far away……whereas the USA has a land border with a Latinx country….

    Old Grudges: The Latinx have a claim on Anglo-American territory (Mexican War)….that wasn’t the case with the Italians…..

    Culturally:

    Italy is central to European Civilization:

    The Latinx coming to Anglo-America represent a different spirit…..

    And your response is that they are similar because certain nativists doubted Anglo-America’s ability to absorb both groups?

    That is simply imbecilic…..

  190. megabar says:
    @Corvinus

    > Actually, the circumstances are similar in nature

    They are similar in nature, but not in specifics. Specifics matter. In particular, we are talking about different sets of immigrants. Do you believe that Hispanics and Africans are functionally equivalent to Germans or Irish people? If not, do you see why the colonial nativists might have been wrong, yet a current belief that mass immigration is harmful might be correct?

    My opinion on whether or not a group of immigrants will affect the US in a negative way depends on which group of people we’re talking about. I am not bound to welcome all immigrants because some people were wrong about a previous wave of immigrants.

    (Full disclosure: I actually think the colonial nativists were right in some ways, but talking about that will likely only muddy the waters for the purposes of our discussion. Suffice to say that I feel the US has been a wonderful society *with* the varied Euro immigrants, and in that substantial way, they are mostly wrong. Either way, their arguments do not bind our decisions.)

    > It would seem to me that the truth lies somewhere in the middle

    I didn’t read the links — I’m asking for _your_ opinion on which psychological traits are affected by genetics. I don’t require any proof. What do you believe? It is central to the whole immigration debate. Consider the following positions, both of which are internally consistent:

    1. Blank slate. It is entirely logical to support mass immigration from all parts of the world if you believe in the blank slate. Perhaps you’d want to limit the rate, to allow incoming immigrants to assimilate, but ultimately the immigrants will eventually behave just like the native people. So, the more the merrier, subject to economics, etc. This is, of course, the only position allowed in public.

    2. Genetics matter. If you believe that genetics matter, then you believe that a society reflects the genetics of its people. These effects may be far ranging; from what type of entertainment we consume, to what forms of governments we elect. When you accept different people, you will move the society towards what they would produce. Therefore, you should only admit people who have genetics that would form societies you yourself would like.

    Do you agree that both are logical positions, given the axioms of each? If not, please clarify where you believe I have it wrong. If so, we have reduced the question to the following: Do the people the US is currently absorbing have genetics that would form a society that you would like to live in?

    • Replies: @Corvinus
  191. Corvinus says:
    @syonredux

    “Rather my point, dear fellow. When will being Latinx be as meaningless as being German-American? 50 years? 75?100?”

    Hispanic and Latino, like German-American, are other than meaningless. And the actual point is that every single ethnic group which has come to America puts their stamp on our nation.

    “Wasn’t commenting on the quality, dear fellow; I was noting how architecture expresses cultural identity”

    Which you believe there is a “better” cultural identity. Of course, that is not the case.

    “And the Blacks who commissioned the African-American Museum in DC wanted a style of architecture that is antithetical to Anglo-American culture”

    It’s America culture, not Anglo-American culture. And African-Americans chose a style that represents their heritage in the larger scheme of things. Again, it may not be your cup of tea, but that’s fine.

    https://www.npr.org/2016/09/15/493909656/mission-of-african-american-museum-writ-large-in-its-very-design

    “You must not hang out on university campuses, dear fellow. If Blacks had been absorbed into Anglo-America, we wouldn’t have that oh-so-African museum in Washington”

    Of course blacks have been absorbed into America. The museum is just one way for people to learn more about their history and our history.

    “And terms like African-American and Black American would sound as quaint and antiquated as German-American”

    Not really. Besides, we have German-American museums. There is even one in D.C.

    https://washington.org/find-dc-listings/german-american-heritage-museum

    There is also a German American cultural center in Chicago.

    https://dankhaus.com

    “Sometimes only forceful language will do….And you are cucking quite hard….”

    That language is other than forceful. Cucking observably means nothing to me. In reality, it’s a quaint and antiquated term. But if it makes you feel better about yourself to use it, go right ahead.

    “Again, you need to start associating with the younger generation…..Latinx is the word of the future….”

    Maybe. Then again, perhaps not.

    “Who’s speaking of right and wrong, dear fellow? I’m talking about cultural identity…..the gulf between the European And the Amerind…..”

    No, you are ultimately trying to present one cultural identity as being “right” or “better” than another cultural identity when it comes to art and architecture. When the truth is that these things are a matter of opinion as to what moves them internally or what strikes their fancy externally.

    • Replies: @syonredux
  192. Corvinus says:
    @megabar

    “In particular, we are talking about different sets of immigrants.”

    Actually, we are talking about the human race, as in people. And the Germans and Irish and the Hispanics and Africans have shown to be capable of assimilating.

    “Do you believe that Hispanics and Africans are functionally equivalent to Germans or Irish people?”

    What do you mean by “functionally equivalent?” That seems like a loaded term to me.

    “If not, do you see why the colonial nativists might have been wrong, yet a current belief that mass immigration is harmful might be correct?”

    The colonial nativists were wrong in how they viewed different groups of people, especially Eastern and Southern Europeans, as being totally incapable of being assimilated. As far as immigration is concerned now, I am of the mindset that we need to reduce immigration significantly and prosecute those individuals who employ and/or harbor illegal immigrants.

    As far as being “harmful”, one must take into account the historical record. Was it “harmful” that the Irish came to our nation and created political machines? Was it “harmful” that the Italians came to our nation and, along with other nationalities, developed organized crime networks? Is it “harmful” for Muslims to have a significant presence in Dearborn, Michigan and worship a “perverse religion” known as Islam? Is it “harmful” for Somalians to come to our shores to escape their war-torn nation, only to receive state aid in the interim? Nativists regardless of the time period would say “yes”. Me, I look at the aggregate, the overall, and say “no”, given how these groups have immersed and will immerse themselves into our society. I look at how my ancestors got here, what they had to endure, and believe that the human spirit is universal to overcome adversity, provided one has the work ethic and determination to build something for themselves and their family.

    “(Full disclosure: I actually think the colonial nativists were right in some ways, but talking about that will likely only muddy the waters for the purposes of our discussion.”

    Actually, that is at the crux of the matter. The arguments made by nativists in the past are the same arguments made now by individuals who believe that certain groups of people ought not be allowed to enter our nation.

    “I didn’t read the links — I’m asking for _your_ opinion on which psychological traits are affected by genetics. I don’t require any proof. What do you believe? It is central to the whole immigration debate.”

    Psychological traits, whether it be trust, impulsivity, aggression, or empathy, are complex, influenced by a wide range of different genetic AND environmental factors. Personality in particular is polygenic–multiple genes are involved in determining a trait. I am not a stout “blank slatist” nor a devout “geneticist”. BOTH are somehow and in some way at work. To me, an individual’s characteristics are the result of a myriad of circumstances. Thus, the immigrants in the United States in the past and in the present have had the inherent traits and the personal disposition, in our surroundings, to become part of the American fabric.

    • Replies: @megabar
    , @syonredux
  193. Anonymous[274] • Disclaimer says:
    @Corvinus

    This is that Kantian universalism again. Only Westerners are susceptible to this kind of persuasion. Everybody else in the world does what suits their interests without caring if it’s “hypocritical”.

    As an aside: maybe the leftists are right (but for the wrong reasons) that the Enlightenment needs to be re-evaluated. It’s really messed with the minds of Europeans and Americans

    • Replies: @Corvinus
  194. syonredux says:
    @Corvinus

    “Rather my point, dear fellow. When will being Latinx be as meaningless as being German-American? 50 years? 75?100?”

    Hispanic and Latino, like German-American, are other than meaningless..

    German-American identity is totally meaningless. I just finished asking some friends with German surnames what being “German-American” means to them. Their answer:nothing. Indeed, this was the first time that some of them had even heard the term “German-American.”

    So, yes, when will being Latinx be as unimportant as being German-American? 100 years?Longer?

    And the actual point is that every single ethnic group which has come to America puts their stamp on our nation.

    Some impressions are larger than others……Finnish vs Irish, say…..

    “Wasn’t commenting on the quality, dear fellow; I was noting how architecture expresses cultural identity”

    Which you believe there is a “better” cultural identity. Of course, that is not the case.

    Again, dear fellow, architecture expresses culture. And the use of a pan-African style by Blacks for their museum in Washington expresses the gulf between their culture and Anglo-America…..

    “And the Blacks who commissioned the African-American Museum in DC wanted a style of architecture that is antithetical to Anglo-American culture”

    It’s America culture, not Anglo-American culture.

    You must not travel much…..or read much. Anglo-America is quite distinct from Latinx America

    And African-Americans chose a style that represents their heritage in the larger scheme of things. Again, it may not be your cup of tea, but that’s fine.

    Key word, there. Heritage. African-Americans look to Africa…..whereas Anglo-Americans look to Europe…..Huge gulf, that…..

    “You must not hang out on university campuses, dear fellow. If Blacks had been absorbed into Anglo-America, we wouldn’t have that oh-so-African museum in Washington”

    Of course blacks have been absorbed into America.

    If they had, terms like African-American would be as meaningless as German-American…..

    The museum is just one way for people to learn more about their history and our history.

    Their history, dear fellow. It’s meant to be about them, not us.After all, I’m European, not Black African….

    “And terms like African-American and Black American would sound as quaint and antiquated as German-American”

    Not really.

    Of course they are quaint.

    Besides, we have German-American museums. There is even one in D.C.

    https://washington.org/find-dc-listings/german-american-heritage-museum

    Not part of the Smithsonian, dear fellow….and it doesn’t occupy the same impressive piece of real estate….

    Why? Because no one cares about German-American identity….

    There is also a German American cultural center in Chicago.

    https://dankhaus.com

    Wake me when the NYTIMES starts doing a series of articles about German-Americans….

    “Sometimes only forceful language will do….And you are cucking quite hard….”

    That language is other than forceful. Cucking observably means nothing to me. In reality, it’s a quaint and antiquated term. But if it makes you feel better about yourself to use it, go right ahead.

    It expresses something quite real, dear fellow. Cucks like yourself place the interests of non-Europeans above those of Europeans….Feeding the cuckoo’s spawn at the expense of your own….

    “Again, you need to start associating with the younger generation…..Latinx is the word of the future….”

    Maybe. Then again, perhaps not.

    Trends change, but the WOKE FOLK on my campus all use it……

    “Who’s speaking of right and wrong, dear fellow? I’m talking about cultural identity…..the gulf between the European And the Amerind…..”

    No, you are ultimately trying to present one cultural identity as being “right” or “better” than another cultural identity when it comes to art and architecture. When the truth is that these things are a matter of opinion as to what moves them internally or what strikes their fancy externally.

    Dear fellow, it is amazing to me how you will not acknowledge the fact that the Latinx have their own culture, one that differs quite markedly from the variety found in Europe….

    Again, the plain fact is that this


    Is different from this

    Just go and ask any art historian…..

    • Replies: @Corvinus
  195. megabar says:
    @Corvinus

    > What do you mean by “functionally equivalent?” That seems like a loaded term to me.

    It’s not loaded. I’m being as upfront as I can be. It means a group of people are genetically predisposed towards, for example, sharing the same values, of generating similar levels of prosperity, and desiring to be governed with similar styles of governments. That is, they are more or less interchangeable.

    Consider a concrete hypothetical question: if you took 1 million random ethnic German babies and 1 million random Ethiopian babies, placed each group on their own identical isolated island, and raised them with identical race-neutral robots, do you think they would form similar societies?

    > provided one has the work ethic

    What if it turns out that work ethic is partially genetic in nature (and why wouldn’t it be?), and that different groups have different levels of it (and why wouldn’t they)? Would that change your opinion?

    > Actually, that is at the crux of the matter. The arguments made by nativists in the past are the same arguments made now by individuals who believe that certain groups of people ought not be allowed to enter our nation.

    I have repeatedly addressed this. Just because an argument was wrong (or right) in the past does not mean it applies again if the circumstances are different. As a hypothetical, if I discovered a billion new humans on a previously hidden island that were genetically incredibly violent, would you say that it’s hypocrisy to deny them entry to the US because the colonial nativists were wrong about the Irish? No, that’s absurd. With new circumstances, you reevaluate the argument.

    > Thus, the immigrants in the United States in the past and in the present have had the inherent traits and the personal disposition, in our surroundings, to become part of the American fabric.

    Nothing you said prior to this sentence supports it. Just because genetics is complicated doesn’t mean that all humans are essentially the same. If you wanted to, you could probably breed predictably violent humans in a fairly small number of generations, without having the slightest idea how the genetic mechanisms work. Just mate the most violent men and women you can find.

    It sounds to me like you’re trying to have it both ways. You acknowledge that genetics matters, but seem to deny that they can have significant effects on a society. I don’t really understand that. Why would genetic differences only be trivial and nonconsequential?

    I used to be an egalitarian, and believed in the various efforts to fight racism, etc. But that was before I believed that different races have different genetics. Once I began to believe that genetics are significant, the World made a lot more sense — though it is indeed a bitter pill to swallow. But who knows? Maybe I’m wrong and we’ll find some evidence that it really is nurture and not nature.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
  196. syonredux says:
    @Corvinus

    “In particular, we are talking about different sets of immigrants.”

    Actually, we are talking about the human race, as in people.

    And people come from different races….

    Dan Freedman: Racial differences in newborn behavior, 1974

    And the Germans and Irish and the Hispanics and Africans have shown to be capable of assimilating.

    Jury’s still out on Latinx and Blacks….

  197. Corvinus says:
    @syonredux

    “German-American identity is totally meaningless. I just finished asking some friends with German surnames what being “German-American” means to them. Their answer:nothing. Indeed, this was the first time that some of them had even heard the term “German-American.”

    What you gave here is an anecdote. Now, I have several buddies who have 100% German blood, and I have heard them say they are German-American. So it is really a matter of perspective. To them, it is other than meaningless.

    So, yes, when will being Latinx be as unimportant as being German-American? 100 years?Longer?

    Again, dear fellow, architecture expresses culture. And the use of a pan-African style by Blacks for their museum in Washington expresses the gulf between their culture and Anglo-America…..

    “You must not travel much…..or read much. Anglo-America is quite distinct from Latinx America”

    You mean the United States is different from Latin America.

    “Key word, there. Heritage. African-Americans look to Africa…..whereas Anglo-Americans look to Europe…..Huge gulf, that…..”

    Actually, black and white Americans look to their own nation, as well as their own ancestry, for inspiration.

    “Why? Because no one cares about German-American identity….Not part of the Smithsonian, dear fellow….and it doesn’t occupy the same impressive piece of real estate….”

    Actually, people do care about German-American identity, and regardless if the museum is not an “impressive piece of real estate”–which is again a personal opinion–obviously people go here to learn more about this group of people.

    “It expresses something quite real, dear fellow. Cucks like yourself place the interests of non-Europeans above those of Europeans….Feeding the cuckoo’s spawn at the expense of your own….”

    You are fixated with this term “cuck”. I suggest detox.

    “Again, the plain fact is that this…Is different from this…”

    Not “right”. Not “better”. Just “different”.

    “Jury’s still out on Latinx and Blacks….”

    No, Latinos/Hispanics and blacks have assimilated.

    • Replies: @syonredux
    , @syonredux
  198. Corvinus says:
    @megabar

    “It’s not loaded. I’m being as upfront as I can be. It means a group of people are genetically predisposed towards, for example, sharing the same values, of generating similar levels of prosperity, and desiring to be governed with similar styles of governments. That is, they are more or less interchangeable.”

    The argument had been made by nativists that Eastern/Southern Europeans were other than genetically predisposed, other than interchangeable, with the Founding Stock. Exactly why there were laws designed to limit their presence so the “gene pool” would not be diluted. A similar argument is being made today regarding non-Europeans, that somehow their genetic make-up does not suit well with our nation. In BOTH instances, it is observably false.

    “Consider a concrete hypothetical question: if you took 1 million random ethnic German babies and 1 million random Ethiopian babies, placed each group on their own identical isolated island, and raised them with identical race-neutral robots, do you think they would form similar societies?”

    The problem with your scenario here is that these “race-neutral robots” lack the requisite human emotional component to properly nurture the children. Moreover, I would imagine the robots would be specifically programmed to ensure the success of that isolated island, especially when it comes to technological and medical breakthroughs. Regardless, both islands would form societies that would have several components that were similar in nature–government institutions, educational systems, economic structures. That is in the DNA of human beings. Now, Germans and Ethiopians are certainly capable, despite nativist callings that they were inept, to immerse themselves into our nation.

    “What if it turns out that work ethic is partially genetic in nature (and why wouldn’t it be?)…”

    Evidence suggests that work ethnic is in part genetically influenced. However, it does not mean that an entire group of people is predisposed to work harder, or work slower, or avoid work, compared to another group of people. It also does not mean that a person cannot learn how to work harder, or that a group of people are less likely to be taught how to work harder. Historically, it was believed that African slaves in their own environment were biologically “shiftless”, but a firm hand would enable them to be productive “for their own good”. Historically, it was believed that the Polish were notorious for their “laziness” since it was an in-born trait, and this “corrosive people” was deemed undesirable for entry into our nation. Are not these attitudes fraught with bias?

    “and that different groups have different levels of it (and why wouldn’t they)?”

    How does one even go about conducting research regarding these alleged and varying “levels” of work ethic between racial and ethnic groups? Has their been prior research on this topic? What was their methodology? What were, if any, scientific criticisms of such studies? How does one control the extraneous variables and minimize the confounding variables? Would not such studies have to be replicated in order to determine consistent results? All legitimate questions here.

    “I have repeatedly addressed this. Just because an argument was wrong (or right) in the past does not mean it applies again if the circumstances are different.”

    Except the circumstances are not that radically different.

    “As a hypothetical, if I discovered a billion new humans on a previously hidden island that were genetically incredibly violent, would you say that it’s hypocrisy to deny them entry to the US because the colonial nativists were wrong about the Irish? No, that’s absurd. With new circumstances, you reevaluate the argument.”

    If you discovered this group of people, you would have to conduct several studies to determine IF their violence was due to genetic OR environmental factors. You are assuming something that was not properly investigated.

    Furthermore, how do we know that the Irish knack for violence is NOT genetically based? Has it ever been definitively determined that their penchant for fisticuffs is not in-born? Were the nativists indeed wrong about the innate hot-headedness of the Irish?

    If yes, then could people be wrong today about the apparent violent nature of certain immigrant groups who come to our shores?

    “Just because genetics is complicated doesn’t mean that all humans are essentially the same.”

    Is not the genetic difference between individual humans today minuscule, about 0.1%, on average Whether you hail from Nairobi, New York, or New Guinea, is not our genetic make-up strikingly similar to that of every other person on Earth? Indeed, scientists have long recognized that human beings have physical differences, but do not populations from different parts of the world share genetic similarities than previously assumed?

    “If you wanted to, you could probably breed predictably violent humans in a fairly small number of generations, without having the slightest idea how the genetic mechanisms work. Just mate the most violent men and women you can find.”

    No, one would have to discuss how and why those genetic mechanisms do work, as well as the results, especially if there were significant numbers of offspring who were other than violent.

    “You acknowledge that genetics matters, but seem to deny that they can have significant effects on a society.”

    No, I am challenging the conclusions that people draw from their positions.

    “I don’t really understand that. Why would genetic differences only be trivial and nonconsequential?”

    That is a strawman, I never directly or indirectly made that argument.

    “But that was before I believed that different races have different genetics.”

    Different races have unique physical features.

    Diseases are more common in certain racial (and ethnic) groups.

    Some racial (and ethnic) groups are more likely to be susceptible to certain climatic conditions.

    Trust, impulsivity, aggression, empathy, work ethic…are all complex behaviors influenced by a wide range of different genetic AND environmental factors.

    • Replies: @megabar
  199. Corvinus says:
    @Anonymous

    “This is that Kantian universalism again. Only Westerners are susceptible to this kind of persuasion. ”

    Replace “Only Westerners” with “People” and you would be on track.

    “Everybody else in the world does what suits their interests without caring if it’s “hypocritical”.”

    That’s observably false.

    “As an aside: maybe the leftists are right (but for the wrong reasons) that the Enlightenment needs to be re-evaluated. It’s really messed with the minds of Europeans and Americans.”

    Actually, the Enlightenment enabled the human race to make significant progress individually and collectively.

  200. megabar says:
    @Corvinus

    > In BOTH instances, it is observably false.

    How is it observably false? Are you pointing to minority individuals that have assimilated well? If so, that is not persuasive. We are talking about groups here, not individuals. No one disputes that there are talented individuals in all fields from every race.

    > The problem with your scenario…

    None of your criticisms bear on what the hypothetical is trying to illustrate. From what I can tell, your answer is basically: “The two resulting societies would be more similar than different, and would be substantially on par with each other, because I believe that the most important traits of all humans are shared roughly equally across all races.” Please correct me if that’s not an accurate restatement of your answer. BTW, that is a plausible answer, but again, I disagree with it.

    > However, it does not mean that an entire group of people is predisposed to work harder, or work slower, ….

    A genetic component does not guarantee that the races are different. But nor is it precluded by the nature of genetics. Indeed, genetic mechanisms likely lead to differences in populations under the right circumstances, which existed during human evolution. However, your argument correctly indicates that we can not assume genetic differences between groups. We must consider other evidence.

    > Are not these attitudes fraught with bias?

    Those attitudes are fraught with bias. But bias is not necessarily incorrect. You may have a bias to pet a random Golden Retriever instead of a random Pit Bull. You would be correct to do so, on average.

    > If you discovered this group of people, you would have to conduct several studies..

    [MORE]

    Again, you’re dodging the question by nitpicking. Assume, as the question implies, that the violent tendency is indeed known to be genetic in origin, to a degree that would satisfy you. In that world, how would you answer the question?

    > Were the nativists indeed wrong about the innate hot-headedness of the Irish? If yes, then could people be wrong today about the apparent violent nature of certain immigrant groups who come to our shores?

    The Irish probably are genetically more hot-headed, on average, than Swedes. Just like Italians are probably more externally emotional than English. I’ve never made the point that all ethnicities are identical. I’ve said that Europeans are compatible with, and beneficial to, a modern Western nation.

    > Is not the genetic difference between individual humans today minuscule, about 0.1%, on average

    I don’t know the exact amount. It’s small. But so what? A very stupid Englishman is very similar genetically to a very smart Englishman — certainly more similar than either are to an Asian or African man.

    > No, one would have to discuss how and why those genetic mechanisms do work

    So how did humans breed excellent dairy cattle that dramatically increased milk production without knowing what an allele is? How did Belyayev tame foxes in short order without deconstructing the Fox genetic code for personality?

    > Trust, impulsivity, aggression, empathy, work ethic…are all complex behaviors influenced by a wide range of different genetic AND environmental factors.

    No one disputes a word of this. And yet none of that means that the different races don’t vary in personality traits. Again, I’ll try to sum up your points in a concise fashion — correct if necessary.

    You argue that the different races are different at a genetic level, but that we all share commonalities that make us all compatible with modern Western society. All races have essentially the same ability to contribute to society. You argue that all immigrant groups have observably demonstrated the ability to assimilate well into the West, and that the problems that they currently exhibit are on par with those seen by early non-WASP immigrants to the US. You argue that genetics is not advanced enough to prove genetic differences in complex behavior, and therefore it is correct to assume that there are no significant differences.

    I, on the other hand, would argue that there is in fact substantial evidence that this is not true. This is already way too long, so I’ll be terse. It’s important to realize that no one data point proves anything. It is the totality and consistency of the evidence that has currently convinced me, because as you have pointed out we can not run a simple objective experiment to prove or refute these types of hypotheses.

    1. The different races have organized their own countries in the form you might predict by their racial stereotypes.
    2. The different races perform roughly the same in their own countries as they do here in the US. For example, Africans are more violent in the US and in Africa; Asians are the opposite. Other metrics follow the same pattern.
    3. People tend to segregate themselves along racial lines, when given a free choice. Some of this is no doubt cultural. Witness the growing demand from minorities for their own spaces.
    4. In areas of high segregation within the US (e.g. neighborhoods, schools, cities), minority races appear to perform even more similarly to their home nation. That is, there appears to be a “natural state” that each race moves towards absent influence from others.
    5. The most objective data that we have is probably IQ. IQ tests aren’t perfect, but they’re not bad, either, and they show consistent, significant differences between the races. The IQ results are roughly the same in the US as they are in the host countries. They also generally match what you’d expect by national prosperity.
    6. Efforts to reduce achievement gaps have been largely ineffective in the US, despite large amounts of money and time being spent on the problem. This is in line with research that suggests that traits such as IQ (in adulthood) are largely hereditary in nature, given a reasonable environment.
    7. Adoption studies suggest that genetics are more important than family (environment), in terms of adulthood IQ.
    8. We have a theory of genetics that plausibly explains why personality traits may differ in different populations. There are other traits governed by multiple genes that show differences between races (gestation time, bone density, skull shape).
    9. Many talented minorities do quite well in the US. This suggests that oppression in the US is not as onerous as people think it is. Blacks stormed the sports world when given even the tiniest crack in segregation, because they are very talented at it.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
  201. syonredux says:
    @Corvinus

    “German-American identity is totally meaningless. I just finished asking some friends with German surnames what being “German-American” means to them. Their answer:nothing. Indeed, this was the first time that some of them had even heard the term “German-American.”

    What you gave here is an anecdote. Now, I have several buddies who have 100% German blood, and I have heard them say they are German-American. So it is really a matter of perspective. To them, it is other than meaningless.

    But it is meaningless……Seriously. How many German-American TV shows are on the air in the USA? How many universities offer courses in German-American Literature? Do media pundits routinely refer to Eisenhower as a “German-American president?” No.

    So, yes, when will being Latinx be as unimportant as being German-American? 100 years?Longer?Give me a time frame…..

    “You must not travel much…..or read much. Anglo-America is quite distinct from Latinx America”

    You mean the United States is different from Latin America.

    No, I mean Anglo-America. Anglophone Canada and the USA have a lot in common…

    “Key word, there. Heritage. African-Americans look to Africa…..whereas Anglo-Americans look to Europe…..Huge gulf, that…..”

    Actually, black and white Americans look to their own nation, as well as their own ancestry, for inspiration.

    Blacks tend to prefer looking to Black America and Black Africa for inspiration…..Just hang out at any African-American Studies Department…..

    “Why? Because no one cares about German-American identity….Not part of the Smithsonian, dear fellow….and it doesn’t occupy the same impressive piece of real estate….”

    Actually, people do care about German-American identity,

    How many TV shows are about German-Americans? How many NYTIMES articles are about German-Americans? The last time I heard someone utter “German-American” on TV was during a documentary about the Great War….In contrast, Hispanic and Latino/a are omnipresent….

    and regardless if the museum is not an “impressive piece of real estate”–which is again a personal opinion

    It’s also my personal opinion that Blenheim Palace is more impressive than a tar-paper shack….

    –obviously people go here to learn more about this group of people.

    Compared to how many go to the “Blacksonian?”

    “It expresses something quite real, dear fellow. Cucks like yourself place the interests of non-Europeans above those of Europeans….Feeding the cuckoo’s spawn at the expense of your own….”

    You are fixated with this term “cuck”. I suggest detox.

    With the Ludovico technique, I assume:

    “Again, the plain fact is that this…Is different from this…”

    Not “right”. Not “better”. Just “different”.

    There you go! You can now tell the difference between Latinx art and European art….

    “Jury’s still out on Latinx and Blacks….”

    No, Latinos/Hispanics and blacks have assimilated.

    If they had, we wouldn’t be having this conversation…..

    • Replies: @Corvinus
  202. syonredux says:
    @Corvinus

    “Jury’s still out on Latinx and Blacks….”

    No, Latinos/Hispanics and blacks have assimilated.

    An “assimilated” Black on Europe:

    I’d been feeling this way all through my stay in Europe-edgy, defensive, hesitant with strangers. I hadn’t planned it that way. I had thought of the layover there as nothing more than a whimsical detour, an opportunity to visit places I had never been before. For three weeks I had traveled alone, down one side of the continent and up the other, by bus and by train mostly, a guidebook in hand. I took tea by the Thames and watched children chase each other through the chestnut groves of Luxembourg Garden. I crossed the Plaza Mejor at high noon, with its De Chirico shadows and sparrows swirling across cobalt skies; and watched night fall over the Palatine, waiting for the first stars to appear, listening to the wind and its whispers of mortality.

    And by the end of the first week or so, I realized that I’d made a mistake. It wasn’t that Europe wasn’t beautiful; everything was just as I’d imagined it. It just wasn’t mine.

    Obama, Dreams From My Father

  203. Corvinus says:
    @megabar

    “How is it observably false? Are you pointing to minority individuals that have assimilated well? If so, that is not persuasive. We are talking about groups here, not individuals. No one disputes that there are talented individuals in all fields from every race.”

    Europeans and non-Europeans, as groups, have shown to integrate into our society. It was believed that the Irish, the Chinese, the Mexicans could NOT assimilate due in part to their “genetic failings”…yet they have found ways to mesh with the American fabric. So, in EACH case, there had been the position taken that these groups lacked the innate characteristics to immerse themselves into our society, but they have demonstrated to the contrary.

    It seems to me that you are under impression that the nativists who believed that Europeans deemed unfit to assimilate because of biology were “wrong” or “mistaken”…but the nativists who think that non-Europeans are deemed unfit to assimilate because of biology are “correct” or “right”. In other words, the same arguments used then are being used now. Is there not cognitive dissonance here?

    “None of your criticisms bear on what the hypothetical is trying to illustrate.”

    Actually, the criticisms would have a direct bearing on the particular outcome here.

    ”BTW, that is a plausible answer, but again, I disagree with it.”

    Then you disagree.

    “Indeed, genetic mechanisms likely lead to differences in populations under the right circumstances, which existed during human evolution.”

    Likely being the key word here. But one must also take into account the likelihood environmental factors also play a definitive role.

    “You may have a bias to pet a random Golden Retriever instead of a random Pit Bull. You would be correct to do so, on average.”

    One could argue that we assume that pit bulls are inherently aggressive. But dogs can become aggressive and mean if it is mistreated. With the proper training, pit bulls can be as loving and loyal and gentle as most other types of dogs. And while it is true that there have been numerous instancs of pit bulls who have mauled people, there were also several factors in play–disease, improper handling, lack of socialization or training, misreading the dog’s behavior. Now, of course, if you are petting a pit bull who has been trained by a thug, regardless of their race, there is a more likelihood that you may get chomped on. Interesting enough, a 2006 study from the Journal of Interpersonal Violence revealed that owners of vicious dogs were significantly more likely to have criminal convictions for domestic violence, drug and alcohol abuse, and crimes involving firearms. aggressive crimes, drugs, alcohol, domestic violence, crimes involving children and firearms. These findings were confirmed in a 2009 report published in the Journal of Forensic Sciences–”Vicious dog owners reported significantly more criminal behaviors than other dog owners,” and they were ranked “higher in sensation seeking and primary psychopathy.” A 2011 study in that same journal found that “vicious dog owners reported significantly higher criminal thinking, entitlement, sentimentality and super-optimism tendencies. Vicious dog owners were arrested, engaged in physical fights, and used marijuana significantly more than other dog owners.”

    “Again, you’re dodging the question by nitpicking”

    Not at all. I’m bringing to the forefront important questions that must be taken into consideration before moving forward.

    “Assume, as the question implies, that the violent tendency is indeed known to be genetic in origin, to a degree that would satisfy you. In that world, how would you answer the question?”

    It would appear that you are begging the question here. One must actually find out whether this newly discovered people is violent due to their natural inclination or their customs. You are assuming that is has to be geneticin nature. I’m more skeptical here. Consider how both the Europeans and Native Americans reacted to one another in their initial meetings in the 1500 and 1600′s. Both groups tended to view one another as being savages and butchers. Was it due to their inherent personality traits or their distinct cultural patterns that each group found threatening or disturbing?

    What if this argument was made–”Europeans, compared to non-Europeans, were by their very nature crude, vicious, and perverted, as evident by their imperialistic endeavors and their expansion of the slave trade in their in the 1800′s? Could this position be reasonably backed up by science from a nature, not nurture, perspective? Why or why not?

    “The Irish probably are genetically more hot-headed, on average, than Swedes.”

    Except the Irish and Swedes are ETHNIC groups, not distinct racial groups. Could it not be reasonable to say that environmental factors are why there is this apparent difference in hot-headedness? Moreover, what studies have been done to demonstrate that the Irish compared to the Swedes are more hot-headed? Is there not cultural factors like the consumption of alcohol? A society that promotes and values toughness in their males?

    “I’ve said that Europeans are compatible with, and beneficial to, a modern Western nation.

    Except we have had clear examples that certain European ethnic groups were other than compatible and beneficial. So, what changed? Again, how were the Irish, if their detractors were utterly convinced that this group was genetically unable to assimilate into American society, magically transformed into a group that became part of our culture?

    “I don’t know the exact amount. It’s small. But so what?”

    So what? According to the Stanford link I provided, “Human populations do roughly cluster into geographical regions. However, variation between different regions is small, thus blurring the lines between populations. Furthermore, variation within a single region is large, and there is no uniform identity….if separate racial or ethnic groups actually existed, we would expect to find ‘trademark’ alleles and other genetic features that are characteristic of a single group but not present in any others…[But it found ] that only 7.4% of over 4000 alleles were specific to one geographical region. Furthermore, even when region-specific alleles did appear, they only occurred in about 1% of the people from that region—hardly enough to be any kind of trademark. Thus, there is no evidence that the groups we commonly call “races” have distinct, unifying genetic identities. In fact, there is ample variation within races. Ultimately, there is so much ambiguity between the races, and so much variation within them, that two people of European descent may be more genetically similar to an Asian person than they are to each other .”

    All I am doing here is I am just citing one research study, and am not agreeing or disagreeing with its conclusions.

    “A very stupid Englishman is very similar genetically to a very smart Englishman — certainly more similar than either are to an Asian or African man.”

    You mean a very stupid and very smart Englishmen of Caucasian descent are very similar to one another. And it not be that one Englishman had significant advantages or more opportunties that accounts for this difference in smarts?

    “You argue that the different races are different at a genetic level…”

    We as human beings are 99% similar in nature at the genetic level.

    “but that we all share commonalities that make us all compatible with modern Western society. All races have essentially the same ability to contribute to society. You argue that all immigrant groups have observably demonstrated the ability to assimilate well into the West, and that the problems that they currently exhibit are on par with those seen by early non-WASP immigrants to the US.”

    Indeed.

    “You argue that genetics is not advanced enough to prove genetic differences in complex behavior, and therefore it is correct to assume that there are no significant differences.”

    I am of the belief that the studies which account for genetic differences in complex behaviors among the races has been politicized to suit the agendas of radicals on both the right and on the left, and that the differences are being interpreted to fit the desired narrative. The truth is somewhere.

    As far as your 9 points, each one would, to me, require a long, thoughtful response. Perhaps I will get around to it.

    • Replies: @megabar
  204. Corvinus says:
    @syonredux

    “But it is meaningless……Seriously.”

    Not to German Americans.

    “How many German-American TV shows are on the air in the USA?”

    Well, you got me there.

    “How many universities offer courses in German-American Literature?”

    I would say dozens.

    “Do media pundits routinely refer to Eisenhower as a “German-American president?” No.”

    It’s OK to be white and German.

    “There you go! You can now tell the difference between Latinx art and European art”

    Latino/Hispanic art and European art. Which is a matter of personal taste.

    “If they had, we wouldn’t be having this conversation…..”

    Of course we would. You just disagree.

    “Blacks tend to prefer looking to Black America and Black Africa for inspiration.”

    They look to America and their fellow blacks and Africans for inspiration.

    • Replies: @syonredux
  205. megabar says:
    @Corvinus

    These are getting too long, so I’m only going to respond to a few things. Feel free to re-bring up something if you feel it’s important.

    > In other words, the same arguments used then are being used now. Is there not cognitive dissonance here?

    No, there isn’t dissonance if the original nativists were wrong, and the current nativists are right. This can easily be true if the two groups of people we’re talking about are in fact genetically different. That is, the fact that the original nativists misjudged their immigrants doesn’t mean that I am misjudging current immigrants. I really don’t understand how this is confusing. Even if you disagree about the current immigrants, you should be able to see that what I just wrote is logically true.

    > non-Europeans, as groups [have assimilated]

    I would say that Asians in general, and talented individuals from India, Africa, and Hispanic countries all function well in Western society. I know and like many of them. However, that does not mean that that as a whole those groups have assimilated — clearly African communities in the US are very different from white communities — nor does it mean that Western society wouldn’t change if immigration continues. If 200 million Chinese babies were to appear in the US tomorrow, the US would change and become more like China over time. I like and respect Chinese, but I prefer Western society, so I do not want to happen.

    > One must actually find out whether this newly discovered people is violent due to their natural inclination or their customs. You are assuming that is has to be genetic in nature

    You’re avoiding the question. The original question is hypothetical, so I can assume whatever I want — that is how hypotheticals work. Assuming the cause is genetic in the question does not mean that the cause is genetic in real life. It only establishes what you would do in a world where the cause is genetic. For example, I will freely state that in a hypothetical where violent people were found, and it was determined to be entirely environmental, then I would absolutely support immigration (done prudently, of course). See? It’s not hard to answer hypotheticals if you’re being intellectually honest.

    > One could argue that we assume that pit bulls are inherently aggressive

    Do you believe that pit bulls are genetically identical, in terms of aggressive behavior, to golden retrievers? I am not asking if there are environmental differences that reinforce this — we all know that to be true. Are they *identical* in genetic aggressiveness?

    > As far as your 9 points, each one would, to me, require a long, thoughtful response.

    If you’re going to simply provide an alternative explanation to genetics for each of these in turn, you needn’t bother. I could do that myself, with entirely reasonable, plausible explanations. It’s not difficult, with some combination of colonialism, oppression, unconscious bias, and environment (both physical and mental). And in fact, these all likely contribute.

    But genetics is the only plausible explanation for the totality and consistency of the differences we see in different groups of people. If you want to advance a different theory, it should explain why all African communities and countries look the same, even though they face varying levels of oppression. It should say why there aren’t any pockets of African academic excellence (beyond a few individuals, which is well explained by a normal distribution). You should explain why Jews and Asians, both oppressed in the US, excel in academics and do poorly at sports, and Africans and Hispanics have the opposite trend. You’ll have to explain why the more segregated any group is, the more they perform like their stereotypes. You’ll have to explain why adopted kids turn out more like their biological parents than their adopted parents. You’ll have to explain why interventions to erase academic gaps have failed to close. Surely, if it’s environmental, there should have been some improvements?

    All of these are supported by a genetic cause. It is the simplest, most consistent cause. Perhaps it’s not true, but I just don’t see a compelling alternative.

    I don’t expect to change your mind on anything, as online debates rarely do that; but at least admit that you can’t prove genetics isn’t the single dominant factor in the differences between races.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
  206. Corvinus says:
    @megabar

    “No, there isn’t dissonance if the original nativists were wrong, and the current nativists are right.”

    Yes there is dissonance here. In BOTH cases, the nativists believe that a particular group of people lack the genetic material to assimilate. So how do we know FOR CERTAIN that the nativists back then were indeed “wrong” when, for example, the Irish were absolutely incapable of adopting the dominant American culture? It’s not as if the genetics of the Irish “improved” or “changed”.

    What specific things convinced you that the original nativists were mistaken? Could not then that rationale you came up with be used to say that the current nativists are wrong in their assessment?

    “I would say that Asians in general, and talented individuals from India, Africa, and Hispanic countries all function well in Western society.”

    Which would your personal opinion. I would say that people from around the world have what it takes to immerse themselves into “Western society”. Remember, the same argument was made about “talented individuals” from Europe. The original nativists had developed an “ethnic pecking order”–only certain groups could become assimilated. We know that to be false. Again, for what reasons do you believe the original nativists are “wrong”?

    “However, that does not mean that that as a whole those groups have assimilated — clearly African communities in the US are very different from white communities…”

    Indeed, in some regards, black and white communities are different. It comes down whether or not it is primarily due to genetics or environment.

    “If 200 million Chinese babies were to appear in the US tomorrow, the US would change and become more like China over time. I like and respect Chinese, but I prefer Western society, so I do not want to happen.”

    White Americans tend to prefer American society, and generally do label it as “Western society”.

    “You’re avoiding the question.”

    I offered the requisite caveats.

    “Do you believe that pit bulls are genetically identical, in terms of aggressive behavior, to golden retrievers? I am not asking if there are environmental differences that reinforce this — we all know that to be true. Are they *identical* in genetic aggressiveness?”

    Great question.

    http://www.politifact.com/georgia/statements/2011/aug/03/elaine-boyer/are-pit-bulls-more-aggressive-other-dogs/

    Here is one study.

    “In 2008, a team of University of Pennsylvania researchers completed a study of aggressiveness of 30 breeds of dogs. The researchers collected about 15,000 questionnaires for the year-long study. The researchers asked owners a series of questions concerning how their dogs reacted in various situations to other canines and humans they know as well as strangers. The questions included how does the dog react when a stranger arrives. The results found Chihuahuas and Dachshunds were the most aggressive toward both humans and other dogs. Those breeds, however, are smaller and usually inflict less-severe injuries. The findings were a mixed bag for Pit Bull Terriers. The dogs were among the most aggressive toward other dogs, particularly those they didn’t know. Pit bulls, the researchers found, were not significantly more aggressive than other breeds toward strangers and their owners.”

    There are other studies the article cites.

    Here is what this site says about Golden Retrievers.

    https://www.golden-retriever-dog.com/training/how-to-deal-with-an-aggressive-golden-retriever-dog

    “While most people do not think that golden retriever dog aggression is a problem, it can be depending how the dog was raised. If a dog is abused from early on and then you adopt this dog, it can have some aggressive dog behavior that needs to be corrected as soon as possible.”

    ” Though aggression is an instinctive nature of Golden Retrievers, they were never unwanted. Golden Retrievers had shown aggression to hunt, to defend themselves from other creatures, to defend resources such as food, a place to sleep, and a mate. Golden Retriever aggression has been classified in several ways — dog aggression, food aggression, aggression towards strangers, and aggression towards family members are some of the common types.”

    “But genetics is the only plausible explanation for the totality and consistency of the differences we see in different groups of people.”

    No, as you just stated, there are entirely reasonable, plausible explanations. It would appear you are of the mindset that it is generally genetics that is the ultimate factor. That is fine, but it does not mean every situation or circumstance is due to nature.

    “All of these are supported by a genetic cause. It is the simplest, most consistent cause. Perhaps it’s not true, but I just don’t see a compelling alternative.”

    Supported in part by a genetic cause for some of those things you listed, and in other cases, there is considerable debate as to how conclusions have been arrived.

    “but at least admit that you can’t prove genetics isn’t the single dominant factor in the differences between races.”

    Genetics may or may not be the single dominant factor in the differences between races.
    Environment may or not be the the single dominant factor in the differences between races.

    Really depends upon one’s perspective, right?

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
  207. @Corvinus

    “Pit bulls, the researchers found, were not significantly more aggressive than other breeds toward strangers and their owners.”

    The problem with pit bulls is that when they do get aggressive, they take it very seriously and can do serious damage by biting down hard with their teeth and not releasing while they shake their victims around. I’d want a pit bull as my loyal dog in a post-apocalyptic wasteland, but not in a family-friendly neighborhood.

    In contrast, a golden retriever gums everything (including your living room furniture), so he’s unlikely to put children in the hospital or the grave.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
  208. Corvinus says:
    @Steve Sailer

    “The problem with pit bulls is that when they do get aggressive, they take it very seriously and can do serious damage by biting down hard with their teeth and not releasing while they shake their victims around.”

    That would be with any type of dog that has a nasty streak. It’s really not unheard of attacks by golden retrievers.

    http://www.nbc12.com/story/21752552/chesterfield-woman-hospitalized-after-golden-retriever-attack

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2132912/Horror-family-dog-kills-dismembers-month-old-baby-father-slept.html

    “I’d want a pit bull as my loyal dog in a post-apocalyptic wasteland…”

    No doubt by 2033. That’s when we can expect the impending Civil War to be finalized. Looking forward to the final showdown between the Coalition of the Fringes Right and Left!

    “In contrast, a golden retriever gums everything (including your living room furniture), so he’s unlikely to put children in the hospital or the grave.”

    Let’s do some NOTICING, shall we? Source –> wikipedia page on dog attacks in the US

    The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) published a study in 2000 (I realize it’s dated, but it still illustrates the point) on dog bite-related fatalities (DBRF) that covered the years 1979–1998. The report concluded that relying on media coverage of dog-bite-related fatalities presents a biased view of the dogs involved. They stated media reports are likely to only cover about 74% of the actual incidents and that dog attacks involving certain breeds may be more likely to receive media coverage. They also reported that since breed identification is difficult and subjective, attacks may be more likely to be “ascribed to breeds with a reputation for aggression”.

    The study found reports of 327 people killed by dogs over the 20-year period. Some breed information was available for 238 (73%) of the fatalities. Of 227 incidents with relevant data, 133 (58%) were unrestrained dogs and on the owners’ property; 55 (24%) were loose off the owners’ property; 38 (17%) were restrained dogs on their owners’ property; and only one (less than 1%) was restrained off the owners’ property.

    The study defined dog attacks as “a human death caused by trauma from a dog bite”. Excluded from the study were deaths by disease caused by dog bites, strangulation on a scarf or leash pulled by a dog, heart attacks or traffic accident, and falling injury or fire ant bites from being pushed down by a dog. The study also excluded four deaths by trauma from dog bites by police dogs or guard dogs employed by the government.

    The study found that Pit bulls and Rottweilers alone accounted for 67% of deaths, but there were also several Bullmastiffs, Boxers, Bull Terriers, Great Danes, St. Bernards, a Rhodesian Ridgeback, a bulldog, and a Newfoundland.

    Working dogs, however, were also frequently implicated, mostly German Shepherds and Doberman Pinschers, but there were also several herders, including Australian shepherds and Collies, and one identified only as a “sheepdog”.

    Spitz and Primitive dogs comprised a substantial minority, including multiple Chow Chows; native Japanese dogs (mostly Akita Inus); and sled dogs types: Huskies, Malamutes and others. One incident involved a Basenji.

    Wolfdogs killed 14 people during the study period, and dogs identified only as “mixed breeds” or “unknown” killed 15. Deaths from wolfdogs, also known as wolf hybrids, plummeted after most states banned them as pets.

    Fatal attacks by retrievers rarely but somewhat regularly occurred, including several Labrador Retrievers and a Chesapeake Bay Retriever.

    There were also a comparatively small number of fatal hound attacks (including a Coonhound and two Dachshunds) and terrier attacks (including two of the smallest ratters: a West Highland White Terrier and a Yorkshire Terrier, which is among the smallest of all dogs). The study also mentioned one fatal attack by a cocker spaniel.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
  209. @Corvinus

    The study found that Pit bulls and Rottweilers alone accounted for 67% of deaths,

    Okay!

    • Replies: @Corvinus
  210. Corvinus says:
    @Steve Sailer

    Surprised you missed this part considering you have this apparent knack of keen awareness–”The report concluded that relying on media coverage of dog-bite-related fatalities presents a biased view of the dogs involved. They stated media reports are likely to only cover about 74% of the actual incidents and that dog attacks involving certain breeds may be more likely to receive media coverage.”

    http://time.com/2927759/the-problem-with-people-not-pit-bulls

    “Dogs are products of their environment as well as their genetics. They have been bred for many different jobs over centuries, however, they have primarily been bred as family companions and they need to be treated with compassion. Pit Bulls are no different. They were bred as working dogs and family companions prior to being bred to bull bait and then dog fight. Animal aggression and human aggression are not synonymous in the canine world, as they are in the human world and it is often difficult for people that are unfamiliar with the breed/s to understand that dog-aggressive does not mean human aggressive. Even breeders who selected dogs for reproduction specifically for dog fighting would not tolerate dogs that showed any signs of aggression; they had to be able to pull their dog out of a fight without getting bitten, and to trust the dog with the family at the end of the day. Responsible breeders now breed against all forms of animal and human aggression, and have done so for many years. With all of that said, though there are certain breed “normalcies” such as the herding instinct in cattle dogs, all dogs are individuals and exhibit their own unique personalities. They should be treated and trained as such.”

    “Secondly in regards to statistics, when Pit Bulls are routinely mis-identified, it is more than plausible to see how their numbers are high on reports even though they are rated very high by the American Temperament Test Society as friendly dogs.”

    • Replies: @res
  211. megabar says:

    > Yes there is dissonance here

    Evaluate this. You interview candidates for your company when they’re hiring new employees.

    Candidate A is given a low score by some other interviewer, as he bombed the guy’s question. He’s hired anyway because the president likes him. Turns out, he does pretty well once he’s hired.

    Candidate B is interviewed by you. You have a question you think is a pretty good way to evaluate people. Cand B does very badly on your question.

    Do you say:
    A) Well, the other interviewer was wrong about Candidate A, so I *must* be wrong about Candidate B, too. So let’s hire him!
    B) No hire. It’s possible that I’m wrong about Candidate B, but with the best available information, we should not hire this person.

    > Again, for what reasons do you believe the original nativists are “wrong”?

    I have answered this several times. Europeans have integrated. I suspect Europeans are not genetically identical, but they are obviously close enough that there is no between-group resentment or desire to self-segregate. I have also said that I suspect that the original nativists weren’t completely wrong, in that culture likely did change somewhat.

    > I offered the requisite caveats.

    That is a cop-out. I insist you answer the original question: If you discovered a group of humans that are indeed genetically significantly more violent than normal, would you take them in? Answering this does not in any way indicate how you feel about actual human groups on the planet, so I don’t understand why you won’t answer it.

    > [Dog aggression: Study shows that pit bulls are no more aggressive than others]

    Although I’m skeptical of that study, I’ll concede the narrow point. But you’re missing the larger one. It is obvious that dog breeds have different temperaments. For example, some breeds make good guard dogs; others don’t. Some bark a lot, and some don’t. Some are lazy, and some are high-strung. It is obvious that there are different genetic “average” personalities for each breed. Do you dispute this?

    > No, as you just stated, there are entirely reasonable, plausible explanations.

    I don’t mean to be rude, but you are either willfully misunderstanding me, or simply not understanding my points. I specifically said that I could provide plausible explanations (that I personally believe are all either partially or completely wrong, btw) on a point-by-point basis, but not one that explains the totality of the evidence. That is, there is no compelling non-genetic explanation that explains the whole of the data we see.

    > Genetics may or may not be the single dominant factor in the differences between races.
    > Environment may or not be the the single dominant factor in the differences between races.
    > Really depends upon one’s perspective, right?

    Then provide an explanation that explains the totality and consistency of racial differences using a non-genetic cause. The genetic explanation is concise, has a plausible mechanism, and explains all facts very well.

    Furthermore, having such a “Ah, who can tell?” attitude is all fine and good, except that immigration is an irreversible act that, if the genetic theory is correct, has the potential to cause tremendous pain and suffering for all concerned, minorities included. Not to mention the permanent change of a society that has been quite successful.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
  212. syonredux says:
    @Corvinus

    We’re still doing this? Ah, well, nothing better to do for the next few minutes….

    “But it is meaningless……Seriously.”

    Not to German Americans.

    Then why aren’t they campaigning for German-American lit classes, German-American movies and TV shows, etc, etc, ….

    “How many German-American TV shows are on the air in the USA?”

    Well, you got me there.

    All of these German-American friends of yours need to get cracking….

    “How many universities offer courses in German-American Literature?”

    I would say dozens.

    Really? Which ones? I’ve taught at a half dozen different unis, and none of them had any courses on German-American Lit…but all them offered courses on African-American lit and Hispanic/Latino/Chicano/Latinx-American lit…..Surely you’re not counting American lit courses that include fellows like Theodore Dreiser and HL Mencken?

    “Do media pundits routinely refer to Eisenhower as a “German-American president?” No.”

    It’s OK to be white and German.

    See! There you go! Being German-American is meaningless in contemporary Anglo-America…

    You can now tell the difference between Latinx art and European art”

    Latino/Hispanic art and European art. Which is a matter of personal taste.

    Telling the difference between them is not a matter of taste, dear fellow. It’s simply a matter of possessing eyes…..

    “If they had, we wouldn’t be having this conversation…..”

    Of course we would. You just disagree.

    Probably true. After all, you think that being German-American is as big a deal as being Black or Latinx

    “Blacks tend to prefer looking to Black America and Black Africa for inspiration.”

    They look to America and their fellow blacks and Africans for inspiration.

    Well, they certainly look to their fellow Blacks in America…..

    • Replies: @Corvinus
  213. res says:
    @Corvinus

    https://www.livescience.com/27145-are-pit-bulls-dangerous.html

    A five-year review of dog-bite injuries from the Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia, published in 2009 in the journal Plastic and Reconstructive Surgery, found that almost 51 percent of the attacks were from pit bulls, almost 9 percent were from Rottweilers and 6 percent were from mixes of those two breeds.

    In other words, a whopping two-thirds of the hospital’s dog-attack injuries involved just two breeds, pit bulls and Rottweilers.

    Other studies confirm these statistics: A 15-year study published in 2009 in the American Journal of Forensic Medicine and Pathology revealed that pit bulls, Rottweilers and German shepherds were responsible for the majority of fatal dog attacks in the state of Kentucky. [See What Your Dog's Breed Says About You]

    And a 2011 study from the Annals of Surgery revealed that “attacks by pit bulls are associated with higher morbidity rates, higher hospital charges and a higher risk of death than are attacks by other breeds of dogs.”

    The authors of that 2011 study go on to say, “Strict regulation of pit bulls may substantially reduces the U.S. mortality rates related to dog bites.”

    Pit Bulls can make for excellent pets (smart, active, devoted to their owners), but as far as bites go the link above is pretty convincing and I am even more convinced by my own n=1 experience. I have been bitten by one dog as an adult. A pit bull.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
  214. Corvinus says:
    @res

    So why didn’t you include this information from that source? Answer: An omission fallacy.

    “Fans of pit bulls are quick to assert that a dog’s propensity for attack depends in large part on its owner and how it is raised, and there’s considerable evidence that owners of pit bulls and other high-risk dogs are themselves high-risk people. A 2006 study from the Journal of Interpersonal Violence revealed that owners of vicious dogs were significantly more likely to have criminal convictions for aggressive crimes, drugs, alcohol, domestic violence, crimes involving children and firearms. These findings were confirmed in a 2009 report published in the Journal of Forensic Sciences. The authors of that report wrote, “Vicious dog owners reported significantly more criminal behaviors than other dog owners,” and they were ranked “higher in sensation seeking and primary psychopathy. And a 2011 study, also in the Journal of Forensic Sciences, found that “vicious dog owners reported significantly higher criminal thinking, entitlement, sentimentality and super-optimism tendencies. Vicious dog owners were arrested, engaged in physical fights, and used marijuana significantly more than other dog owners.”

    From your source –> “A five-year review of dog-bite injuries from the Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia, published in 2009 in the journal Plastic and Reconstructive Surgery, found that almost 51 percent of the attacks were from pit bulls, almost 9 percent were from Rottweilers and 6 percent were from mixes of those two breeds.”

    So, do we know the circumstances behind these injuries, as well as the owner’s backgrounds? That would be illuminating.

    • LOL: res
  215. Corvinus says:
    @megabar

    “Evaluate this. You interview candidates for your company when they’re hiring new employees.”

    You are going down a rabbit hole here. I would not interview candidates in this fashion, nor would the supermajority of today’s business owners, HR personnel, or managers. Thus, from my perspective, the point is moot. No need for me to evaluate something that is other than realistic.

    “I have answered this several times. Europeans have integrated.”

    As have non-Europeans. So if the nativists back then were “wrong” about specific groups from Europe being incapable of assimilating, then nativists today certainly are also “wrong” about non-Europeans being incapable of assimilating. Why? Because each group offered reasons to the contrary, as well as had similar experiences in demonstrating their ability to immerse themselves into our nation. Remember, according to biologists, the human race is 99% gentically identical in nature.

    ”I suspect Europeans are not genetically identical, but they are obviously close enough that there is no between-group resentment or desire to self-segregate.”

    Actually, Europeans all shared a common ancestor.

    https://www.livescience.com/29390-all-europeans-share-recent-ancestors.html

    So on the scale of the last three thousand years, there exists a high degree of relatedness between populations of different European nations. The scientists, however, discovered the distribution of the common ancestor is not geographically homogeneous…an environmental factor. The Italians have fewer common genetic ancestors among themselves and with other Europeans given their relative isolation. The researchers acknowledge that to study a story this complex, analyzing the genes of our contemporaries is must also incorporate archaeology and paleo-anthropology.

    Moreover, “In fact, it’s likely that everyone in the world is related over just the past few thousand years,” said study co-author Graham Coop, a geneticist at the University of California, Davis.

    ”I have also said that I suspect that the original nativists weren’t completely wrong, in that culture likely did change somewhat.”

    Which is other than surprising in our history, as we have a myriad of races and ethnicities that make up our nation. But the original nativists were profoundly disturbed how it changed given the propensities of the Irish and Germans. Did these undesirable traits simply disappear? Let us also consider Alt Right leader Vox Day, who just scribed today that “Immigrants, the children of immigrants, the grand-children of immigrants, and the great-grandchildren of immigrants should never be given the right to vote on anything. No one forced them to immigrate, and they always vote to change – and usually to ruin – the societies into which they have immigrated.”

    Which would mean that YOU and YOUR family, as immigrants, do not have the liberty to partake in our representative democracy.

    “That is a cop-out. I insist you answer the original question: If you discovered a group of humans that are indeed genetically significantly more violent than normal, would you take them in? Answering this does not in any way indicate how you feel about actual human groups on the planet, so I don’t understand why you won’t answer it.”

    It seems you changed the wording from “that the violent tendency is indeed known to be genetic in origin” to “genetically significantly more violent than normal”. Regardless, you are begging the question. Again, If you discovered this group of people, you would have to conduct several studies to determine IF their violence was due to genetic OR environmental factors. You are assuming something that was not properly investigated. This hypothesis is exactly the issue that leads to arguments between those who believe in nature and those who believe in nurture, because neither side would agree with that hypothesis or premise or whatever one would call it. Understand that if a person insisted in this “hypothetical” that this newly found group was environmentally significantly more violent than normal, I would also have the same objection. Otherwise, I am not being logically consistent here.

    It is obvious that dog breeds have different temperaments. For example, some breeds “make good guard dogs; others don’t. Some bark a lot, and some don’t. Some are lazy, and some are high-strung. It is obvious that there are different genetic “average” personalities for each breed. Do y”ou dispute this?

    Dogs indeed have different tempermants. What is being disputed is that if a particular breed of dog is more violent than others due to its inherent nature or due to environment.
    There may be, however, an overlap of different temperaments in the same dog. For example, sharpness may be seen with over aggression or submissiveness with being temperamental. We know that temperament is inherited but can be modified or enhanced by the environment. Consider that a “general attitude” is an interpretation of the observer and lends itself to subjectiveness, and that external controllable factors that the humans select for a dog as a pet may take precedence. So Tt what extent is temperament primarily due to nature or ture is, again, a bone of contention.

    “I specifically said that I could provide plausible explanations (that I personally believe are all either partially or completely wrong, btw) on a point-by-point basis, but not one that explains the totality of the evidence.”

    That would be your opinion here.

    “That is, there is no compelling non-genetic explanation that explains the whole of the data we see.”

    Again, your opinion. But, if we take each point collectively, there is a substantial amount of evidence that environment played a decided role.

    “Furthermore, having such a “Ah, who can tell?” attitude is all fine and good, except that immigration is an irreversible act that, if the genetic theory is correct, has the potential to cause tremendous pain and suffering for all concerned, minorities included.”

    ”If the genetic theory is correct” being the vaveat.

    “Not to mention the permanent change of a society that has been quite successful.”

    Changes would could be argued that have benefitted our soceity.

    • Replies: @megabar
  216. Corvinus says:
    @syonredux

    “Then why aren’t they campaigning for German-American lit classes, German-American movies and TV shows, etc, etc, ….”

    It’s meaningful to them that they have some of these things already in place, and that their culture is already celebrated. As far as the movies and TV shows are concerned, they are proudly represented.

    https://www.imdb.com/list/ls000812033

    “Really? Which ones? I’ve taught at a half dozen different unis, and none of them had any courses on German-American Lit.”

    IF that be the case, then you of all people failed miserably in promoting that cause. Anyways, for starters…

    https://www.noodle.com/colleges/german-language-and-literature_subjects

    https://learn.org/articles/German_Literature_Degree_Programs_Frequently_Asked_Questions.html

    https://las.depaul.edu/academics/modern-languages/graduate/german-ma/Pages/default.aspx

    https://www.american.edu/cas/wlc/languages/german.cfm

    https://mki.wisc.edu/research/culture_traditions/german-american-literature

    I would surmise given the choices here that coursework, either as an actual class or for independent study, is be available to students to take regarding not only German literature, but also German-American literature and German American authors.

    “Being German-American is meaningless in contemporary Anglo-America.”

    No, it is meaningful to be German-American, or Polish-American, or African-American…or just an American. It is also meaningful to be black, or brown, or white, or yellow…or just a human being.

    “Telling the difference between them is not a matter of taste, dear fellow. It’s simply a matter of possessing eyes…..”

    With that possessing eyes merely determining for oneself what they think is “better” or “more beautiful” when it comes to art and literature. Ultimately, it is a personal opinion.

    • Replies: @syonredux
  217. megabar says:
    @Corvinus

    Alright, perhaps it’s time to wrap this up. In my opinion, you are not arguing in good faith, or are repeatedly failing to understand what I’m saying. If you are trying to answer in good faith, then you and I look at reasonable argument and logic in a different manner.

    I have some brief parting comments explaining why I feel this way; feel free to respond. If you’d like to continue the discussion, I invite you to answer (in an honest and non-evasive way) the questions I’ve repeatedly asked you.

    > No need for me to evaluate something that is other than realistic.

    The scenario is both realistic and a fairly accurate representation of the situation.

    > As non-Europeans [have also assimilated], … nativists today certainly are also “wrong”

    It’s ironic that you (later on) accuse me of begging the question. I do not concede your premise.

    > Remember, according to biologists, the human race is 99% genetically identical in nature.

    I’ve already given an explanation for why this doesn’t matter in the context of our discussion. Small genetic changes can have a large impact.

    > Let us also consider Alt Right leader Vox Day

    It’s irrelevant to our discussion what Vox Day says.

    > Again, If you discovered this group of people, you would have to conduct several studies to determine IF their violence was due to genetic OR environmental factors

    You don’t seem to understand what a hypothetical is. It is a “what-if” question that fixes several variables to clarify others.

    > What is being disputed is that if a particular breed of dog is more violent than others due to its inherent nature or due to environment.

    No, the larger issue is whether dogs have different temperaments (a complex, polygenic trait) based on their genetics. You used the question I asked to go find a refuting study on a narrow slice of the main issue, instead of debating in good faith.

    > That would be your opinion here.

    An opinion which I provided an argument for, which you simply dismiss.

    > “If the genetic theory is correct” being the caveat.

    Obviously. But because something is not proven with 100% certainty, does not mean we ignore it, especially if the consequences are significant. That means we look at the preponderance of the evidence as a whole. I gave an argument; you do not.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
  218. Anonymous[274] • Disclaimer says:

    Don’t let these people put you on the defensive. When they demand that you justify excluding foreign group X from the country, don’t dignify the question with a response. Demand that THEY justify allowing them in. It’s their responsibility not yours. If they can’t prove 100% that X won’t a threat or a burden then terminate the discussion.

  219. Corvinus says:
    @megabar

    “Alright, perhaps it’s time to wrap this up. In my opinion, you are not arguing in good faith, or are repeatedly failing to understand what I’m saying. If you are trying to answer in good faith, then you and I look at reasonable argument and logic in a different manner.”

    I have been arguing in good faith, as I understand what you are saying, and have been providing cogent rebuttals.

    “I have some brief parting comments explaining why I feel this way; feel free to respond. If you’d like to continue the discussion, I invite you to answer (in an honest and non-evasive way) the questions I’ve repeatedly asked you.”

    No, I have been honest and not evasive in the slightest.

    “The scenario is both realistic and a fairly accurate representation of the situation.”

    No, your interview situation was other than realistic, and your discovering new “violent” people assumed something that begged the question. Not buying either one.

    “It’s ironic that you (later on) accuse me of begging the question. I do not concede your premise.”

    OK.

    “It’s irrelevant to our discussion what Vox Day says.”

    It has direct bearing on our conversation.

    ““That is, there is no compelling non-genetic explanation that explains the whole of the data we see.”

    That is an opinion, as you are insisting that any non-genetic explanations would be other than compelling from your perspective.

    “Obviously. But because something is not proven with 100% certainty, does not mean we ignore it, especially if the consequences are significant. That means we look at the preponderance of the evidence as a whole. I gave an argument; you do not.”

    No, I have given several arguments and refutations.

  220. syonredux says:
    @Corvinus

    Still prattling on? Ah, well….

    “Then why aren’t they campaigning for German-American lit classes, German-American movies and TV shows, etc, etc, ….”

    It’s meaningful to them that they have some of these things already in place, and that their culture is already celebrated. As far as the movies and TV shows are concerned, they are proudly represented.

    What? How many German-American TV shows are there? You know, German-American counterparts to all the Black-American TV shows that are currently being broadcast? I certainly don’t know of any….

    “Really? Which ones? I’ve taught at a half dozen different unis, and none of them had any courses on German-American Lit.”

    IF that be the case, then you of all people failed miserably in promoting that cause.

    Why would I want to promote German-American lit?

    https://www.noodle.com/colleges/german-language-and-literature_subjects

    https://learn.org/articles/German_Literature_Degree_Programs_Frequently_Asked_Questions.html

    https://las.depaul.edu/academics/modern-languages/graduate/german-ma/Pages/default.aspx

    https://www.american.edu/cas/wlc/languages/german.cfm

    https://mki.wisc.edu/research/culture_traditions/german-american-literature

    I would surmise given the choices here that coursework, either as an actual class or for independent study, is be available to students to take regarding not only German literature, but also German-American literature and German American authors.

    Dear fellow, the bulk of the courses on that list are offered through German lit and German language programs….I’m talking about German-American lit classes…..counterparts to stuff like this:

    https://afamstudies.yale.edu/

    https://english.fas.harvard.edu/grad_cat/african-american-literature/

    https://gsas.columbia.edu/degree-programs/ma-programs/african-american-studies

    “Being German-American is meaningless in contemporary Anglo-America.”

    No, it is meaningful to be German-American, or Polish-American, or African-American

    According to the media and academia, it’s far, far more meaningful to be African-American

    …or just an American.

    Try telling that to Black Lives Matter…..

    It is also meaningful to be black, or brown, or white, or yellow

    Well, yes, being European, Sub-Saharan African, Latinx, or East Asian is extremely meaningful….Just ask Black Lives Matter….

    …or just a human being.

    Is it meaningful to Black Lives Matter…..

    “Telling the difference between them is not a matter of taste, dear fellow. It’s simply a matter of possessing eyes…..”

    With that possessing eyes merely determining for oneself what they think is “better” or “more beautiful” when it comes to art and literature. Ultimately, it is a personal opinion.

    The difference between this

    And this

    is hardly a matter of personal opinion…..

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