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Georgetown has been doing interesting studies lately of colleges, such as their one from last summer that if the 200 most prestigious colleges just drafted high school students in order of test scores, top colleges would whiter and maler.

And here’s a new one from Georgetown rather like Raj Chetty’s that I wrote up in Taki’s in 2017.

Here’s Georgetown’s rankings of top 50 undergrad colleges in terms of median earnings after ten years:

Institution State Institution type Median 10-yr earnings Net price Graduation rate
1 Albany College of Pharmacy and Health Sciences NY Private nonprofit $124,700 $29,761 74%
2 St Louis College of Pharmacy MO Private nonprofit $124,100 $30,274 72%
3 Massachusetts College of Pharmacy and Health Sciences MA Private nonprofit $116,000 $37,779 76%
4 Massachusetts Institute of Technology MA Private nonprofit $104,700 $20,771 93%
5 Babson College MA Private nonprofit $96,100 $35,540 91%
6 Maine Maritime Academy ME Public $95,600 $23,460 66%
7 Stanford University CA Private nonprofit $94,000 $13,261 94%
8 Georgetown University DC Private nonprofit $93,500 $30,107 94%
9 University of the Sciences PA Private nonprofit $91,600 $31,454 71%
10 Harvard University MA Private nonprofit $89,700 $14,327 97%
11 Stevens Institute of Technology NJ Private nonprofit $89,200 $36,620 83%
12 Harvey Mudd College CA Private nonprofit $88,800 $34,464 95%
13 United States Merchant Marine Academy NY Public $88,100 $6,758 78%
14 Bentley University MA Private nonprofit $86,900 $35,671 90%
15 Massachusetts Maritime Academy MA Public $86,600 $18,027 75%
16 California Institute of Technology CA Private nonprofit $85,900 $24,245 91%
17 University of Pennsylvania PA Private nonprofit $85,900 $24,242 95%
18 Colorado School of Mines CO Public $84,900 $25,710 77%
19 Worcester Polytechnic Institute MA Private nonprofit $84,900 $40,376 87%
20 Duke University NC Private nonprofit $84,400 $35,737 95%
21 Carnegie Mellon University PA Private nonprofit $83,600 $31,102 89%
22 Columbia University in the City of New York NY Private nonprofit $83,300 $24,231 95%
23 Yale University CT Private nonprofit $83,200 $18,627 98%
24 California State University Maritime Academy CA Public $82,900 $16,416 63%
25 SUNY Maritime College NY Public $82,800 $18,413 60%
26 Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute NY Private nonprofit $82,000 $34,839 83%
27 Lehigh University PA Private nonprofit $81,900 $34,212 87%
28 Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology IN Private nonprofit $80,900 $36,906 82%
29 Kettering University MI Private nonprofit $80,500 $37,247 57%
30 DigiPen Institute of Technology WA Private for-profit $80,200 $35,538 41%
31 Georgia Institute of Technology-Main Campus GA Public $79,100 $13,291 86%
32 University of Notre Dame IN Private nonprofit $78,400 $28,768 95%
33 Villanova University PA Private nonprofit $77,900 $41,858 90%
34 Cornell University NY Private nonprofit $77,200 $31,230 94%
35 Washington and Lee University VA Private nonprofit $76,100 $24,761 92%
36 Tufts University MA Private nonprofit $75,800 $32,620 93%
37 Dartmouth College NH Private nonprofit $75,500 $30,421 96%
38 Princeton University NJ Private nonprofit $74,700 $9,327 97%
39 Case Western Reserve University OH Private nonprofit $74,600 $35,316 82%
40 University of Southern California CA Private nonprofit $74,000 $30,232 92%
41 Johns Hopkins University MD Private nonprofit $73,200 $33,586 93%
42 Claremont McKenna College CA Private nonprofit $72,900 $26,933 91%
43 Santa Clara University CA Private nonprofit $72,600 $33,738 89%
44 Boston College MA Private nonprofit $72,500 $34,550 92%
45 Fairfield University CT Private nonprofit $72,100 $36,929 82%
46 Clarkson University NY Private nonprofit $72,000 $30,563 72%
47 University of the Pacific CA Private nonprofit $71,700 $29,171 69%
48 Milwaukee School of Engineering WI Private nonprofit $71,300 $21,328 65%
49 Missouri University of Science and Technology MO Public $71,200 $14,473 64%
50 College of the Holy Cross MA Private nonprofit $71,000 $34,159 92%

As I mentioned in my Chetty write-up, the top-ranked pharmacy schools have 6-year programs, so this might not be a fair comparison. The #1 normal 4 year college is MIT, which isn’t terribly surprising. Babson, a business-oriented college in suburban Boston ranks quite high.

Masculine high end trade schools like Maine Maritime Academy and Colorado School of Mines also do well.

Also, colleges that only offer STEM majors do better than ones that offer a mix of STEM and liberal arts majors. For example, graduates of the University of the Sciences in Philadelphia get paid more on average than graduates of its affiliate University of the Arts. If you combined them, the merged institution would be more average.

Some of these figures have to do with cost of living of where grads tend to wind up: e.g., Boston is an expensive place, so graduates of Boston colleges tend to be paid a lot so they can afford to buy a Boston-area home.

The Net Price column is interesting: Princeton, Stanford, and Harvard are listed as being exceptionally cheap. Because of their huge endowments, they offer generous financial aid (i.e., tuition discounts), but I hadn’t realized how nice it is financially to go to an HYPS school.

There is only one for-profit college in the top 50: DigiPen Institute of Technology in Redmond, WA for computer game designers.

It’s interesting how capitalism doesn’t work very well for higher education. My impression is that not-for-profits like Yale and U. of Michigan tend to be more exclusive at keeping out the riff-raff, while for-profit colleges can seldom resist letting in more warm bodies.

For example, in Los Angeles there are a million nightschools teaching screenwriting. But if you can, you definitely want to get into the programs of one of the prestigious not-for-profits like USC because the average quality of the students is so much higher. A big part of taking these courses is getting feedback from other students, and the jokes and plot pitches your classmates suggest for your script are better at USC than at many for-profit courses because USC turns away lots of people who have the money, but the business-based courses reject fewer applicants.

 
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  1. “It’s interesting how capitalism doesn’t work very well for higher education.”

    This has always been so and isn’t surprising. Education is based on the scholar model while capitalism is based on the customer model. Turn students into customers and sooner or later you run out of scholars and all the common good that follows.

    • Replies: @Kronos
  2. (Friendly reminder that filthy lucre is not really the best reason to pursue an education.)

    (Ducking)

    • Replies: @anonymous
  3. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:

    Pillcop Academy is actually tougher to get into than med school in some ways.

  4. 2 St Louis College of Pharmacy

    Go, Eutectics! Beat them Billikens!

    • Replies: @Stephen Paul Foster
  5. Peterike says:

    Well the only thing a pharmacy school graduates is pharmacists. So the average isn’t dragged down by grievance studies majors like it is elsewhere. Why not put medical and dental schools on here? It’s the same effect.

    • Replies: @AnotherDad
  6. Anonymous[206] • Disclaimer says:

    These lists have interesting names that crop up but overall not very different from similar rankings published over the years. Going to an industrial-science/military-affiliated institution pays off, on average… What’s the story on University of the Pacific in scenic Stockton, Calif.? I am aware of no technical orientation or Wall Street pipeline located there. Perhaps that’s why Santa Clara University makes an appearance, i.e. life in coastal California is pretty uniformly expensive so there is a home-field income advantage for the private colleges (in Southern Calif. this is definitely true, as demonstrated by scantier financial aid below the Claremont/Cal Tech tier). UOP has a tiny law school they imported from Sacramento and I’ve seen Santa Clara U. on a lot of Democrat judges’ bios.

    Babson’s a screwy one. For star-struck types, I always thought.

    • Replies: @AnonAnon
    , @Dmon
    , @sanjoaquinsam
  7. Pretty interesting about pharma. I’d been reading for 20 years now how it’s been taken over by women and Walmart, and there’s no money in it any more. And that it’s only a matter of time before it’s taken over by pill-counting robots and computers to double-check for interactions between multiple meds.

    Well, apparently it’s not dead yet. What gives? As simple as no H1B’s driving wages down?

    Good enough to steer one’s sharp, but not brilliant, high school-ers into after all?

  8. Kronos says:
    @SimplePseudonymicHandle

    I doubt it, the Ivy Leagues and many state schools were well in place before education became “BIG.” That is, heavily infused with state and federal funding. They possessed an impressive alumni well before the GI big spending bills and possessed political clout to weather the worst of Civil Rights legislation. Remember, they got to choose DIE ( Diversity, Inclusion, and Equality) on their own terms. They had access to high IQ/ability students since forever. Sure, things kinda change (I believe Charles Murray said something akin to “Harvard used to have many rich kids, and a few smart ones but now it’s reverse.”) But those rich kids likely wouldn’t qualify under Justice Holmes “Three generations of morons is enough” to justify a eugenics sterilization warrant. (Though President Wilson is the biggest exception)

    There are three things individuals/institutions can’t replicate against you in competition.

    1) Your own personal social contact/network.

    2) IQ

    3) The chance to move and make key decisions before the competition ever existed. Schools can’t go back in time to found themselves during the American Colonial era. (That’s the key staple of Ivy League status.)

    P.S. This is an amazing book (and on Audible.) Harvard Business School has advocated some stupid stuff over the years, but remains firmly a prestigious institution simply by existing to cultivate the children of the rich and powerful. Who thus repeat the cycle. (Funny story, before Enron blew up, there were 5 HBS case studies written on Enron but mysteriously disappeared after the scandal. Like Alan Greenspan’s 1960s Ph.d dissertation on asset bubbles.)

    • Replies: @Triumph104
    , @bomag
    , @res
  9. The maritime schools have low graduation rates, despite some of them being quite affordable, such as the US Merchant Marine Academy. That caught my eye, until I remembered reading this as a kid.

    https://archive.org/details/ClassicsIllustrated025TwoYearsBeforeTheMast

  10. anonymous[684] • Disclaimer says:
    @Mr McKenna

    wwebd said — don’t duck, Mr McKenna –
    you said something true at 5:17 AM GMT …..

    as a Georgetown grad (I could have gone anywhere I wanted, I had top one percent test scores and a military background – trust me, elite schools love to accept anyone with top one percent test scores and a military background) who went to Georgetown (number 8 on the list, one behind Stanford, whose grads face property prices basically double the prices the average Georgetown grad on the east coast faces, so basically way better than number 8 on the list, way better than Stanford at number 7 on the list) because, believe it or not, a girlfriend who dumped me in the August before I started my studies lived in Northern Virginia, so Yale and Harvard and Stanford and Chicago were not on my radar –

    as someone who trust me did not go to Georgetown in pursuit of filthy lucre, let me say …..

    THERE IS OFTEN NO GOOD REASON TO PURSUE AN EDUCATION (at a university)

    no big fan of Taleb, the rich guy who writes books which include frequent passages about how we learn best from our experiences in real life, not from the academic and media self-serving superstructures, well I admire his pro-life views and his views on the superstructures, and he is right about this : if one wants to become educated there are better ways than
    “pursuing an education in academia”

    by the way, lots and lots of Georgetown grads (male) are not poor progressive saps, and have wives who do not work in the secular workplace, as compared to the poor (male) progressive saps who go to Harvard and Stanford, almost all of whom, if married, have wives who would not think of not pursuing their careers in Dilbertland, so obviously the non-progressive Georgetown grads are gonna make a lot more as measured by salary than their progressive peers from sad Harvard and sad Stanford, since their wives do not work in Dilbertland ….

    convexity

    you know I’m right

    • Replies: @Prester John
  11. Jeff says:
    @Portlander

    It’s been 30 years since I watched my college friend go through the Pharmacy program, but I can still remember how much memorization was needed. If your high schooler is good at memorizing, maybe it’s worth a shot.

    • Replies: @onetwothree
    , @Daniel H
  12. @Peterike

    Pharmacy is such a scam.

    Not saying there isn’t a body of knowledge, clearly there is. But i really need a pharmacist to hand me some pills the doc prescribes? Oh and read me the directions and warmings any bozo can read themselves. LOL.

    I’ve always sort of wondered about the presumably intelligent people who go into it. I’d want to actually *do* something with my intelligence. But, hey, it’s an easy comfortable living i guess.

  13. Yeah, but what about family formation. What if a DNA test shows that Dilbert is your kid’s father?

  14. USNA 2009 says:

    The four major service academies (US Naval Academy, Westpoint, Air Force Academy, and Coast Guard Academy) are not included in the list. After ten years as an officer you’ll be an O-4 (Major/Lt. Cmdr) making six figures at current pay levels. This is not including all the other benefits like non-taxable portions of income, various incentive pays and contract extension bonuses for in demand career paths, free gym access, pension, full free healthcare, etc.

    Military academy/officer lifestyle isn’t for everybody, but it’s more profitable than almost all the schools listed here. Oh yeah and the “net price” is negative, they pay you.

  15. Anonymous[388] • Disclaimer says:
    @Portlander

    Pretty interesting about pharma. I’d been reading for 20 years now how it’s been taken over by women and Walmart, and there’s no money in it any more.

    Re: #3 MCPHS

    High-IQed NE Asian females make up a disproportionately large percentage of students at this school and they’ve done internships at local hospitals (six majors hospitals near MCPHS). So a lot of these grads are not CVS or Walmart pharmacists but specialized pharmacists in prestigious Boston hospitals (where RNs pull down $160k).

  16. @AnotherDad

    Pharmacy is such a scam.

    You say that, but I’d sure love to have a pharmacist in the family.

    Especially one who isn’t afraid of federal prison.

    • Replies: @Justvisiting
    , @IC
  17. I would not describe Colorado School of Mines as a trade school. Those graduates drawing the big salaries are majors like Petroleum Engineering. All the oil companies send their recruiters to Mines.

    Mining was a huge industry in Colorado and in the United States when the college started, not so much now.

    • Replies: @dvorak
    , @anonymous
  18. Anon[286] • Disclaimer says:

    A girl I briefly dated in college got into USC Pharmacy School. Maybe I should have stuck with her, rather than go away for grad school! It’s crazy to think how much education a pharmacy student gets. Four years and then more? Are the six-year programs right out of high school, unlike USC? Medical school in Japan starts after high school for qualified kids, and it only lasts six years, including 2 years of clinical education.

    The pharmacy schools seem to be doing a good job of washing out students who shouldn’t be there (unlike Harvard Law). That means that every graduate will get a good job. It also means that wokeness has not yet hit them. They are probably next after the current wars over the MCAT settle down.

    I’m thinking that the wash-out rate for Maine Maritime might because they accept so many female (born female) applicants. Attempts to gender-integrate places like the fire department always end with all the women dropping out.

    Is the Harvard salary average so low because such a big chunk of their graduates work as journalists, web writers, and election campaign staffers?

    But remember this stuff from a while back:

    In the Salary Race, Engineers Sprint but English Majors Endure

    For students chasing lasting wealth, the best choice of a college major is less obvious than you might think.

    The conventional wisdom is that computer science and engineering majors have better employment prospects and higher earnings than their peers who choose liberal arts.

    This is true for the first job, but the long-term story is more complicated.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/20/business/liberal-arts-stem-salaries.html

    For computer programmers there does seem to be a lower “retirement age” than for non-programmer jobs, after which your “consulting” salary drops substantially. I think this is a mix of changing technology, salary differentials by age, lifestyle demands of older workers, young managers ill at ease with older staff, and Indian imports.

  19. Anonymous[388] • Disclaimer says:
    @AnotherDad

    Not saying there isn’t a body of knowledge, clearly there is. But i really need a pharmacist to hand me some pills the doc prescribes? Oh and read me the directions and warmings any bozo can read themselves. LOL.

    There are highly-specialized clinical pharmacists who work alongside doctors and nurses in figuring out specific treatment regimes for patients. A lot of patients have conditions that make for a lot of complexity and these clinical pharmacists are crucial. Clinical pharmacists have to go through a residency just like doctors.

    Then you have hospital pharmacists who also work in a complex and demanding environment that is far from what you describe as the job of a pharmacist (e.g., filling pills at Walgreens or Rite Aid).

  20. JW says:
    @AnotherDad

    It’s not a cushy job anymore. The number of jobs is shrinking and new pharmacists can’t get jobs.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @George
  21. AnonAnon says:
    @Anonymous

    Perhaps that’s why Santa Clara University makes an appearance

    Santa Clara has a decent engineering college and, more importantly, a pipeline to Silicon Valley. As a SoCal resident I wasn’t aware of it but a friend who works for an SV company clued me in. If you’re in NorCal and want your kid to stay relatively local, your choice of decent engineering colleges is fairly limited. You have to be a super star to get into Stanford or Berkeley these days so the lower 2nd-ish tier engineering programs in NorCal that gets people hired into SV jobs are San Jose State and Santa Clara University.

    • Replies: @dvorak
  22. Anonymous[156] • Disclaimer says:
    @JW

    It’s not a cushy job anymore. The number of jobs is shrinking

    Why shrinking if the population is exploding?

    • Replies: @FPD72
  23. @PiltdownMan

    The graduation rates for maritime schools reflect the national average – 76 percent for private colleges and 65 percent for public colleges. Unlike liberal arts colleges, maritime schools often don’t have “easier” majors for students to change to when they can’t handle the science and math courses, so those students are forced to drop out and study elsewhere. Even Caltech has majors in the humanities.

    https://www.npr.org/2019/03/13/681621047/college-completion-rates-are-up-but-the-numbers-will-still-surprise-you

    • Replies: @post-woke
  24. @Kronos

    In order to maintain their non-profit status, colleges with large endowments are admitting more and more poor students. Princeton has been crowing that 24 percent of the class of 2023 are Pell-grant receipients.

  25. Pharmacy…one of the most boring jobs that exist. Just, I have to be fair: a pharmacist properly diagnosed & cured my late mother from ailment all doctors & specialists had been clueless about for months.

    • Replies: @slumber_j
    , @Joe Stalin
  26. Hmmm … I’d love to see the distribution around these median values, because the median values actually seem rather lacklustre.

  27. The maritime academies are obviously benefiting from the Jones Act. Maybe we need a Jones Act for some other areas of the economy. Citizen-ism.

    • Agree: Redneck farmer
    • Replies: @Redneck farmer
    , @Jack D
  28. Stating the obvious, analyzing colleges in this manner causes a GIGO problem. MIT is full of kids who got into MIT. If MIT decided to accept the entire student body of Southwestern Eastern State University, those students wouldn’t be making MIT money in ten years.

  29. Anon55uu says:

    U of the Pacific also has a pharmacy program. In their case as short as 5 years potentially. And also an accelerated dental program.

  30. @Foreign Expert

    Also, ever notice how few native-born white boys are involved in cyber crime?

    • Replies: @Dacian Julien Soros
  31. Area local pharmacist advises against going into pharmacy. He explained on a local talk show why the info about it was outdated. When he graduated from pharmacy school, it was a 5 year BS program. It’s now a doctorate program, much more expensive. Thebig income that everyone remembers about pharmacy? That was because during the transition to a doctorate degree, no new pharmacists were graduating for 3 years. Also more pharmacy schools are graduating more pharmacists. Now the premium has gone away. And lastly, a 1500 hour residency is required. Because he was a trained pharmacist, he got a job as a pharmacist’s assistant, earning $8-10 an hour in the early 90s. Now, the residents cannot get jobs like that. They have to follow around a pharmacist for the whole 1500 hours, earning nothing.

  32. @USNA 2009

    The financial security of a military (and to a lesser extent, civilian government) career tends to get overlooked by many college students, who focus only on the pay, which has an upper bound at every level, unlike in the civilian world. Also, they tend to, naturally, worry about the arduousness of the training, and, of course, risk to life and limb.

    But in 2019, if you figure in career uncertainty in the civilian corporate world including layoffs for periods of a year or more, a Stateside peacetime military career is a financially attractive option for many students, when you consider that military retirement pay is far more of a sure thing than in the civilian corporate world.

    A lot of retired military officers live comfortable middle-class lives, or even lower-end-upper-middle class lives in smaller towns. Add it pension or social security benefits that a spouse might receive, it is not a bad proposition in the world of 2019 relative to many jobs in the civilian world. Not everyone gets to be a tech millionaire or a wealthy investment banker.

  33. @Reg Cæsar

    “Go, Eutectics! Beat them Billikens!”

    Does Pharmacy play St. Louis University?

    • Replies: @countenance
    , @Reg Cæsar
  34. @Jeff

    Yeah, but my 100 dollar smart phone is good at memorizing stuff, and I suspect you could squeeze the bulk of the pharmacology literature into it. The MD writes the prescriptions, the machine mixes stuff, the interactions are on a chart–what exactly does the $200,000/year pharmacist do?

    I strongly suspect there is a sommelier effect going on here: A really, really knowledgeable person whose entire job is actually upselling.

    • Replies: @Another Canadian
  35. Nice to see Georgia Tech ranking so highly, although I wish they would do more for their in-state residents. As the 9th largest state in the union, Georgia’s college & university system woefully underserves its state, with only two schools (GT and UGA) having any kind of a national reputation. GT has about half the enrollment of a typical state university, and while UGA is large, as a flagship state university it’s relatively small given the state’s size (of Florida’s state universities, at least five of them – including UF and Florida State – each have larger enrollments than UGA). GT could expand, and also allow more than 60 percent in-state, as well as cut down on foreign enrollment (which is at least 15 percent). That would make too much sense though.

  36. Ed says:

    Harvard new and improved:

    • Replies: @slumber_j
    , @Anon
    , @Anon
    , @Heynonnie
  37. @Anon

    Yes, the lower “consulting” salary of older IT workers frequently is a feature of incorporation, retaining earnings in the company for future retirement and keeping a low personal tax profile throughout their fifties.

  38. FPD72 says:
    @Anonymous

    Why is the number of pharmacist jobs shrinking? My guess is that many of the positions are being filled with pharmacy “techs” who do much of the actual prescription filling. For example, the grocery store pharmacy that I use usually has four to six people working behind the counter, only one of which is a licensed pharmacist. The two actual pharmacists are graduates of the Texas Tech University Health Sciences School of Pharmacy. I have no idea where the “techs” get their credentials; maybe at a junior college?

  39. @Redneck farmer

    Isn’t the same thing happening with physiotherapy? Conversion from a 6 year masters program to a doctorate?

  40. @onetwothree

    What exactly does the $200,000/year pharmacist do?

    I think it has become a management job supervising all the pharmacy staff stuffing pills into bottles and handing out the correct bubble pak. Mine also takes me aside once a year and formally reviews all my prescriptions. I assume he also is the single throat to choke if someone gets poisoned.

  41. slumber_j says:
    @Bardon Kaldian

    a pharmacist properly diagnosed & cured my late mother

    In Europe anyway pharmacists can be and are a lot more involved in diagnosis etc. than they are in the US: walk into a pharmacy in Rome or Seville or wherever with some complaint, and the person in the lab coat is pretty likely to identify the underlying problem for you and to get you on the road to recovery.

    I suppose that’s what apothecaries have always done, but maybe it’s also a consequence of socialized medicine, under which distributed solutions are prized for their greater efficiency and therefore cheapness. Or maybe it’s because fewer lawsuits? Dunno.

    • Replies: @Anon
    , @Bardon Kaldian
  42. Jack D says:
    @Portlander

    As simple as no H1B’s driving wages down?

    Well maybe not H1B’s but just about every young pharmacist I see working at the chains is some kind of immigrant – E. Asian, S. Asian or E. European.

  43. slumber_j says:
    @Ed

    A (but far from the only) weird thing about that is all the references to “the campus.” We never called it a “campus” back in the day, because it isn’t: there’s Harvard Yard where freshmen live, but most of the rest is just all over the place, scattered around non-Harvard Cambridge willy-nilly.

    p.s. 5 million views? Jesus.

    • Replies: @Ed
  44. Jack D says:
    @Foreign Expert

    American merchant marines make great money but it’s paid for in the form of high prices by American consumers who live on islands (Hawaii, Puerto Rico, etc.). It has also destroyed the coastal freight trade – 40% of European goods move by ship but only 2% of US goods – stuff gets trucked or sent by train because sending it by boat from one US port to another is not cost competitive, even though it uses much less fuel per ton.

    https://www.economist.com/finance-and-economics/2017/10/05/how-protectionism-sank-americas-entire-merchant-fleet

  45. Jack D says:
    @PiltdownMan

    Why is a guy from 1834 wearing 1950s clothing and a 1950s haircut?

    This is what the real Dana looked like:

    Since he visited California in the 1830s, he would not yet have been wearing Mr. Strauss’s denim trousers.

    • Replies: @AnotherDad
  46. Anon[583] • Disclaimer says:
    @slumber_j

    In Japan many pharmacists really give you the third degree. Sometimes they insist on calling your doctor on the phone. And you still see compounded prescriptions, where the pharmacists make your medicine from components indicated by the doctor.

  47. Bill says:

    As I mentioned in my Chetty write-up, the top-ranked pharmacy schools have 6-year programs, so this might not be a fair comparison.

    Pharmacy salaries are pricing in a huge, though little remarked on outside the field, risk. Pharmacists command the salaries they do as a result of feather-bedding regulation. It is illegal to dispense prescription meds without a pharmacist. That’s why the profession exists.

    Some day, states are going to start repealing this ban, and masses of pharmacists are going to be unemployed over night.

    There are a lot of these feather-bedding regulations in health care. Furthermore, since the difference in healthcare costs between the US and other OECD countries is mostly caused by the higher salaries of healthcare workers in the US, if someone ever gets serious about reducing health care costs, these feather-bedding regulations are going to be in great danger.

    Primary care doctors, dentists, physical therapists, and optometrists are also on the someday-to-have-their-salaries-eviscerated hit parade, though one could make this list very long.

  48. @slumber_j

    Probably, but my hunch is that- among other things- that some pharmacists tend to learn from practice & are inquisitive by nature, while, unfortunately, many- way too many- GPs & specialists (internists, allergologists etc.) are stuck in a rut.

    Of course there are exceptions, but…

    Don’t get me wrong, I know that most physicians work hard, just an aside observation.

  49. Anthony Carnevale, a research professor at Georgetown and director of the university’s Center on Education and the Workforce, is a co-author of the following study, and therefore a hopeless moron:

    The Unequal Race for Good Jobs: How Whites Made Outsized Gains in Education and Good Jobs Compared to Blacks and Latinos

    https://cew.georgetown.edu/cew-reports/raceandgoodjobs/

    The different “levels of education” used in this study are “High school diploma or less”, “Middle skills”, and “Bachelor’s degree or higher”.

    Since the top category is “Bachelor’s degree or higher”, a law degree from Yale or an MBA from Harvard or a Ph.D. in Chemical Engineering from MIT are all the same as a B.A. in Communications from an HBCU, as far as this laughable study is concerned.

    Inside Higher Ed article (also stupid) here:

    Racial Inequality, at College and in the Workplace
    White Americans still disproportionately outnumber their African American and Latino counterparts when it comes to obtaining good jobs, regardless of education they have obtained.

    https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2019/10/18/racial-inequality-college-and-workplace

  50. ic1000 says:

    Relevant article by Kay Hymowitz in this quarter’s City Journal about Williamson College of the Trades outside Philly. Link. It’s a 3-year post-high-school trade school that (amazingly) remains true to the mission of its 19th century Quaker founder. Only boys from low-income families are accepted, no tuition, fairly high washout rate. And the graduates do very well, finding jobs in… the trades.

    The applicant pool here doesn’t overlap with that of the schools featured in the Georgetown study. “Third quartile” versus “top 5%,” I would guess.

    • Replies: @JMcG
  51. @PiltdownMan

    Merchant marine disciplines that must be mastered for Captaincy run the gamut from international law to EMT/medic to mechanical engineering, electronics, navigation, meteorology, fire fighting, hazardous substance management, small arms combat etc.

    The earnings cited in the chart are really a little low however when one considers the amount one can save as a merchant marine due to low unreimbursed land life expenses.

    It’s not for everybody though, as the dropout rates suggest and the nature of life on the sea.

  52. countenance says: • Website
    @Stephen Paul Foster

    St. Louis College of Pharmacy is physically in the same general campus as Washington University Med School.

  53. bomag says:
    @Kronos

    There’s a lot to what you say. Many historical greats were self-taught.

    Would be interesting to see the unschooled and their income compared to a standardized test score.

  54. That’s the cover from the 1963 reprint that I owned as a kid. Apparently, the 1946 edition with the cover below, was withdrawn from circulation for several years in the 1950s with the introduction of the comics code. It was felt to be just a bit too enthusiastic in its drawings of the brutal conditions the sailors endured.

    Perhaps the reissued version required a new cover, for rebranding purposes, that was felt to be more wholesome, with the protagonist looking like a clean-cut, fashion-forward 1950s era prep? I’m guessing wildly, of course.

    1946 cover.

    • Replies: @Jack D
  55. Mike1 says:

    “For example, in Los Angeles there are a million nightschools teaching screenwriting. But if you can, you definitely want to get into the programs of one of the prestigious not-for-profits like USC because the average quality of the students is so much higher. ”

    I can’t speak to the quality of the nightschool people but the USC film students are very low quality people. I’ve yet to meet one that can string a sentence together.

    The Harvard median income figure is shocking. At the median I would think you are dealing with people that somewhat need to work. Maybe they are all trust fund and can do non profit jobs. In real life Harvard people I know tend to be either very high income or not working.

    • Replies: @Herp McDerp
  56. Anon[583] • Disclaimer says:
    @Ed

    Apparently the woke students and faculty are eyeing the endowment now, thinking of what they could do with it. First stop: divesting from all unwoke investments, including all energy stocks except wind farms. Get woke, go broke.

  57. dvorak says:
    @Morton's toes

    I would not describe Colorado School of Mines as a trade school.

    Needs an iSteve correction. Mines.edu is a state engineering school like Cal Poly.

  58. dvorak says:
    @AnonAnon

    Santa Clara is also a popular 2nd choice for rich SoCal kids who get rejected by USC, which is far harder to get into than in the past.

  59. Daniel H says:
    @Jeff

    Is 99.99% of a pharmacist’s job just looking at the scrip, going over to a drawer and sliding 30 pills from the drawer into a plastic bottle and giving it to the customer?

  60. Jack D says:
    @PiltdownMan

    Did that kind of visored cap even exist in the 1830s? Or shirts with small pointy collars? Would it have confused the kids to show men with long hair? Were sideburns supposed to signal that this was the past?

    Here is an actual photo of some sailors taken in this period:

    • Replies: @Anon
    , @PiltdownMan
  61. res says:
    @Kronos

    Funny story, before Enron blew up, there were 5 HBS case studies written on Enron but mysteriously disappeared after the scandal. Like Alan Greenspan’s 1960s Ph.d dissertation on asset bubbles.

    Thanks. Here is an article about Greenspan’s 1977 dissertation:
    https://web.archive.org/web/20170513061548/http://www.barrons.com/articles/SB120917419049046805

    Regarding HBS case studies and Enron, did the book specifically say which 5 case studies? If I search now I get 80 hits, at least some of which are before the scandal broke:
    https://store.hbr.org/search.php?search_query=enron&section=product

    • Replies: @Kronos
  62. Anon[896] • Disclaimer says:
    @Jack D

    The bezkozyrka was adopted by the Russian navy in 1811, at which point it presumably existed.

    • Replies: @Jack D
  63. @Portlander

    Pretty interesting about pharma. I’d been reading for 20 years now how it’s been taken over by women and Walmart, and there’s no money in it any more.

    The economics of owning a pharmacy are not very good any more. Between distributor’s pricing control and insurance plans, retail drug margins are very thin. The chains are in a better position to negotiate with both insurers and distributors due to size(same dynamic at work in hospital consolidation) . Also most chains are large convenience stores attached to small pharmacy operations.

    Working as a pharmacist though, is a very well paying job with pretty flexible hours for moms (2 of my nieces are pharmacists). The legal mandate to always have a licensed pharmacist on hand , makes the operation of more than one outlet for an owner/pharmacist not viable, as one has to pay $600 a day for pharmacist on site. The exception is husband/wife partnerships with two stores or suchlike.

  64. Pericles says:
    @AnotherDad

    I have a couple of acquaintances who are pharmacists; they don’t work in a store but instead at medical and cosmetic companies to make pills, creams, lotions, etc. That’s basically the classic pharmacist job, except it’s, so to say, off-site.

  65. Bruno says:

    Without the pharmacy and naval engineers, this ranking seems more homogeneous :

    http://www.businessinsider.com/top-25-best-colleges-salaries-2016-9

    MIT (91k)
    Harvard (87k)
    Georgetown (83k)
    Stanford
    Penn
    Washington and Lee
    Duke
    Princeton
    Columbia (73k)
    Cornell
    Notre Dame
    Southern California
    Yale (66k)
    Northwestern
    Chicago
    Berkeley (63k)

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  66. anonymous[102] • Disclaimer says:
    @Morton's toes

    Why did mining die out in America unlike in Canada?

  67. Kronos says:
    @res

    And just as had been the case with McNamara, HBS was right there beside him almost to the bitter end,

    at which point its Enron case studies were suddenly nowhere to be seen.

    In April 2001, just months before Enron’s collapse, Skilling made a speech at HBS titled “Enron’s Transformation from Gas Pipelines to New Economy Powerhouse.” If that sounded familiar to HBS students, it should have. Professors Christopher Bartlett and Meg Wozny had published a case by the same name in January 2001. All told, the School published five case studies touting the Enron model as worthy of emulation. At the time that HBS professor Pankaj Ghemawat coauthored one of them, “Enron: Entrepreneurial Energy,” 13 he was also a member of Enron’s advisory council, earning a $ 50,000 retainer for his troubles. (That case has also disappeared from the School’s catalog.) Ghemawat later claimed that his interest in writing about Enron predated his council membership, adding that the post gave him no access to confidential information. Using the typical HBS justification, he claimed that he used the position “to get [chairman] Ken Lay to agree to let me interview him and other top managers for my case.” 14 (And to pad his bank account. But the case was the important thing!)

    This was on page 521 on the Kindle edition.

    • Replies: @res
  68. @anonymous

    “if one wants to become educated there are better ways than ‘pursuing an education in academia’ ”

    Now more than ever, I might add. One thing can be said about the Internet –it’s changed all the rules.

  69. @Jack D

    Why is a guy from 1834 wearing 1950s clothing and a 1950s haircut?

    Had the same reaction.

    But be grateful for 50s era anachronism. Today xe would be a black, Latinx, trans-woman, lesbian.

  70. @Bardon Kaldian

    “Boring” right up until you are at telephone booth range gunfights!

    It wouldn’t surprise me if every private pharmacist is armed and has guns placed strategically every few steps at their work space.

  71. Grumpy says:

    …while for-profit colleges can seldom resist letting in more warm bodies.

    There are around 3,000 four-year colleges in the United States. (The number is surprisingly hard to pin down.) Below the top 1,000 or so, they are all looking for warm bodies to fill seats. Tax-supported public institutions are just as guilty as for-profit diploma mills.

    If a public university is built to support 20,000 students (with all of the faculty members, administrators, janitors, IT people, etc., required to serve that number of students), then everyone involved has a vested interest in there being 20,000 students on that campus every semester.

    It’s not uncommon for 50 percent of the students at regional public universities to leave without graduating. This could all be stopped at the admissions office, but that’s not in the interest of the university.

    • Replies: @IC
  72. JMcG says:
    @ic1000

    Power linemen do a four year apprenticeship. Apprentice wages in my area start at around 30/hr and go up to over 50/hr for a journeyman, which exalted state is reached in 4 years. Thanks to the IBEW it’s the last great blue collar job in America.

    • Replies: @Dan Hayes
    , @Bubba
    , @kaganovitch
  73. prosa123 says:

    #25 SUNY Maritime: the nation’s only college campus *literally* located under a bridge.

    • Replies: @captflee
  74. @Redneck farmer

    Because he was a trained pharmacist, he got a job as a pharmacist’s assistant, earning $8-10 an hour in the early 90s. Now, the residents cannot get jobs like that. They have to follow around a pharmacist for the whole 1500 hours, earning nothing.

    So…only rich people can become pharmacists, now?*

    Do rich people actually want to become pharmacists, however?

    *I take it for granted that unpaid internships are a device intended to reserve certain professions to persons likely to be ruling class-adjacent.

    • Replies: @Redneck farmer
  75. Anon[112] • Disclaimer says:
    @AnotherDad

    Doctors, especially those working with the elderly, have a tendency to overprescribe. The pharmacist can sometimes catch medications that interact in ominous ways that doctors miss and save your neck. A lot of doctors are giving a dangerous cocktail of drugs to elderly people.

    • Replies: @JerseyJeffersonian
  76. Anonymous[186] • Disclaimer says:

    The study only accounts for reported salaries from universities, which does not cover stock options and equity. This is important since Stanford grads, who overwhelmingly work in tech, receive a bulk of their compensation in equity. For 10 years experience, equity is typically 1-2x of base salary. Higher for top performers. Add in stock options and Stanford is winning by a mile.

  77. One of my kids (currently junior CS major) was just offered a Wall Street internship for next summer.
    Pay is $3,500 per week, with NYU dorm room, breakfast, and lunch provided.
    We’ll see how many hours of work they expect per week. Maybe quite a few.

    • Replies: @PiltdownMan
  78. Anonymous[294] • Disclaimer says:
    @Joe Stalin

    LMAO! He was shooting past his partner like he went to the Mohamed Noor school of firearms training. The other pharmacist is like, “Um, how about we come with a secret word to hit the floor before you commence any future gun battles??”

  79. Anon[112] • Disclaimer says:
    @Ed

    Deep down, I’d kind of like to see Harvard’s endowment be destroyed by the woke and the Univeristy go under. This will terrify other colleges into reigning in their leftwing nutjob Savonarolas.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
  80. res says:
    @Kronos

    Thanks. I think this is the first case:
    http://datasets.opentestset.com/datasets/Enron_files/full/mcconnell-m/Latest%20Draft1.doc
    BTW, that directory has many files. Might be worth a look for anyone interested in the Enron debacle.

    That site has the second case as well:
    http://datasets.opentestset.com/datasets/Enron_files/full/kean-s/700-079.doc

    I was unable to find either case at the HBR store.

    • Replies: @Kronos
  81. prosa123 says:
    @Joe Stalin

    Several years ago there was a quadruple murder in my town that involved a pharmacy. A drug addict robbed a small independent pharmacy on a Sunday morning in search of Oxycontin, and according to surveillance cameras shot the pharmacist after speaking a few words with him. He then gunned down the teenaged clerk, and over the next minute or so shot two customers as soon as they walked into the store. Even if the pharmacist had been armed it wouldn’t have done him or the other three victims any good.

    It was quite the multiracial crime. The pharmacist was a 40ish black man, the clerk a 17-year-old Salvadoran girl, and the customers were a 30ish white woman and a white man in his 70’s. The shooter was a white trash addict, as was his wife who drove the getaway car. Both got sentenced to life without parole. In her defense, wifey claimed that constant pain from an abcessed tooth made it impossible for her to understand what she was doing, it didn’t work.

    • Replies: @Daniel H
  82. Dmitry says:

    Assuming you don’t want to be pharmacologist – and if you combine net price, median income after 10 years, and completion rate. Then Harvard looks like it could be the best here in some weightings (assuming you add a lot of weight to the high completion rate).

    But this low net price for Stanford, Harvard, MIT, et al, which average must include a lot of scholarships, is a bit misleading surely.

  83. @Anon

    This will terrify other colleges into reigning in their leftwing nutjob Savonarolas.

    Reining. They reign– actually, rule— enough as it is.

  84. Dmitry says:
    @Bruno

    Is Georgetown so high because they accept more children from bourgeois families, or does it have simply a large proportion of students entering as graduate students to a law or medical school after they finish their undergraduate degree there? (Well, I guess the two would be strongly connected).

    • Replies: @J.Ross
  85. Kronos says:
    @res

    I examined the fourteen section files. I didn’t find any glamorous titles that portrayed Enron in a good light. Everything was essentially post-party (aka hangover) regret and hindsight.

    • Replies: @Kronos
  86. @Mike1

    iSteve: >> For example, in Los Angeles there are a million nightschools teaching screenwriting. But if you can, you definitely want to get into the programs of one of the prestigious not-for-profits like USC because the average quality of the students is so much higher.

    Mike1: > I can’t speak to the quality of the nightschool people but the USC film students are very low quality people. I’ve yet to meet one that can string a sentence together.

    The best, and damn near the only, reason to attend USC Film School is for the industry contacts. As the saying goes, “It ain’t what you know, it’s who you know and who you …”

  87. J.Ross says:
    @Dmitry

    Georgetown is the closest thing the deep state has to an official entrance, a lot of important policy indoctrination happens there.

  88. Dan Hayes says:
    @JMcG

    JMcG:

    The late lamented Buffalo Joe oftentimes cited power lineman as being a very good job.

    • Agree: JMcG
    • Replies: @Anonymous
  89. Ed says:
    @slumber_j

    Many write ups in big media too. The ticket of a Nigerian/Jamaican gal and Indian boy.

    Harvard is 14% black which is not only higher than the national black percent but higher % of several state flagship schools in the South. For example UGA is 8% black but 1/3 of states public school students are black.

    I think at this point Harvard might be considered a de facto HBCU

    https://www.ajc.com/news/local-education/raising-black-student-enrollment-uga-still-challenge/x9VrwKgicVMrzEAsVfBMuI/

  90. Jack D says:
    @Anon

    A bezkozyrka is just a sailor’s cap – it does NOT have a visor.

    American sailors had them too:

    But they were a Navy thing, not something a civilian sailor would wear.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  91. George says:
    @JW

    “It’s not a cushy job anymore.” What gives, things were great 10 years ago?

  92. Jack D says:
    @Joe Stalin

    Pharmacist was extremely lucky. One of his shots hit the barrel of the robber’s gun and so he wasn’t able to shoot back. The pharmacist had a .45 and the robber died. He was a 25 year old white drug addict.

  93. Daniel H says:
    @prosa123

    Yep, that happened out on Long Island. Still can’t grasp how the craving for the simple opioid molecules could compel one to commit such a crime.

    • Replies: @Redneck farmer
  94. @Anon

    Yes, and this is particularly so if the patient has scrips from aeveral specialists. My own specialists are quite good at maintaining records of all the pharmaceuticals and supplements I ingest, prescription or over the counter for this very reason, but certainly having pharmacists to be another set of eyes is good.

  95. captflee says:
    @prosa123

    And thus, ‘Throgs Neck Tech”!

    • Replies: @Bubba
  96. Kronos says:
    @Kronos

    I’m referring to the HBS website…

  97. @Anon

    That’s some disingenuous.txt right there. What the NYT is eliding is that liberal arts majors have to rack up extra (and extra expensive) formal degrees to make about the same as STEM nerds with “just” a BS. So the returns to education are still higher for the STEM crowd since they start at a higher income and have less pressure to rack up formal credentials to increase pay.

  98. The University of Michigan got caught about 30 years ago with admissions grid charts that 100% let in blacks and hispanics with the same scores and grades that 100% kept out whites and asians.

    So they adopted a new scale that awarded blacks and hispanics 20 bonus points on a 100 point scale for having the good skin color. Both were rejected by the supreme court, but they were allowed a critical mass racial quota system.

    However, 15 years ago the voters passed a ballot proposal (Michigan’s version of a people’s initiative) that outlawed racial admissions.

    They are trying to game the system, by awarding max essay points for saying you are black/hispanic. They also have hired an army of diversity employees to racially kiss up and tutor them into passing tests

    • Replies: @Steve2
  99. Bubba says:
    @PiltdownMan

    The maritime schools have extremely high attrition rates (particularly for engineering majors) because incoming students quickly realize within that these colleges are are not for them. Most transfer to other colleges and universities and do not “drop out.” Kings Point, the US Merchant Marine Academy, requires a congressional nomination like the military academies.

    An undergraduate ABET accredited engineering degree is tough enough, but a maritime school generally requires engineering students to spend 3 summers on a ship learning how to run a power plant just so you can earn sea time to sit and attempt the weeklong USCG 3rd Assistant Engineering Exam which is a graduation requirement. It requires hard work, determination and family support to accomplish this.

    Reality hits some of these recent high school graduates fairly quickly and they decide to transfer to other engineering schools within the 1st year, hence the high attrition rates.

  100. @Joe Stalin

    My local CVS pharmacy has a a counter that is at least 4 feet high, and at night they pull metal shutters over the top. I live in a very expensive zip code.

  101. Anonymous[270] • Disclaimer says:
    @Jack D

    “Bezkozyrka” is literally translated as “a [hat] without a visor”. Which logically means that visored hats predate bezkozyrkas.

  102. Bubba says:
    @JMcG

    Thanks to the IBEW it’s the last great blue collar job in America.

    I totally agree that being a lineman is one of the last great blue collar jobs in America.

    Apprenticeships have been wiped out in America and it started in the 60’s. Nearly all companies today would not even think of investing time and money in apprenticeship programs for young American high school graduates. It’s cheaper to import or outsource.

    • Replies: @Redneck farmer
    , @JMcG
  103. @JMcG

    Thanks to the IBEW it’s the last great blue collar job in America.

    Not quite the last. I ordered a 3 phase piece of food service equipment last year. I had costed the installation of a 3 phase line pulled from an electrical panel around 150 feet away from an electrician I know at approx. 4K. Installation was in big complex with permanent on-site electrical contractor.
    Actual cost billed by electrical contractor was over 15K. When I asked for itemization , I discovered they were billing 70 hr. for journeyman and much more for foreman.

    • Replies: @JMcG
    , @Corn
  104. Bubba says:
    @captflee

    You might want to learn how to spell “Throggs Neck” before you call others intellectually inferior.

    • Replies: @captflee
  105. Dmon says:
    @Anonymous

    U of P one of the few major pharmacy schools in California.

    • Replies: @Triumph104
  106. @Calvin Hobbes

    One of my kids (currently junior CS major) was just offered a Wall Street internship for next summer.
    Pay is $3,500 per week, with NYU dorm room, breakfast, and lunch provided.
    We’ll see how many hours of work they expect per week. Maybe quite a few.

    PiltdownChild1’s buddy, now a senior, spent summer this year as an intern at Goldman Sachs. I’m told that she did her first 100 hour workweek in her second week, 105 hours. It’s not necessarily killer work, though.

    Back in the 1980s and 1990s, the summer interns were just expected to come in around 7 a.m., well before the morning kick-off meeting with the market economists, and stick around and be available until after pizza delivery at 8:30 p.m. or so at the discretion of the junior entry-level bankers.

    Since I worked in a deal-oriented area (rather than in trading), the junior employees worked on weekends, too. The hours add up. Usually, the twenty-something employees wouldn’t let the college kids go home until they did. Not that anyone had them do any real work that was critical to the bottom line. It’s not really hard work, unlike, say, working on a ship, as in my illustration and link above. Just long hours.

    • Replies: @anonymous
  107. anonymous[391] • Disclaimer says:
    @PiltdownMan

    if your younger relatives respect you, you have an obligation to tell them there are better ways to succeed in this world

    or don’t bother

    I have often tried to give good advice on the internet

    and have been told again and again that my advice was not wanted, and

    here is the sad part

    I know how lonely and sad and scared the people were who criticized me, again and again,,,, thinking they knew what the pride of life is, and that I was just a loser ….

    not just on this website, I have seen it on many websites, in the goodness of my heart I have given good advice in many places, most of the time in the real world, but , because I care about everyone, oftentimes on line

    if your younger relatives respect you, you have an obligation to tell them there are better ways to succeed in this world than spending a hundred hours a week at the sort of job you describe.

    You know I am right, and you are welcome for the good advice.

    I know you are tempted to say something rude, but don’t bother,
    it would be a waste of your time

    and yes, I know what it is to work on a ship.

    That is a fucking easy hobby compared to working at Goldman Sachs

  108. @Redneck farmer

    Yeah, hacking is one of those jobs Americans just won’t do. Hence the enormous overrepresentation of Blacks, Latinos and assorted illegal immigrants among hackers. \s

  109. @Anonymous

    I’m late to the party here, but UOP has a 6-year pharmacy program a student can begin as an undergrad like the other top earnings schools on this list.

  110. JMcG says:
    @kaganovitch

    I don’t disagree at all. That’s the billed amount though. The journeyman is getting maybe 40ish an hour of that. Union electrician is a very good job as well; especially considering they never actually handle anything energized.

    • Replies: @Yngvar
    , @Bubba
  111. Union electrician is a very good job as well; especially considering they never actually handle anything energized.

    As far as I could tell, one of the guys they were billing for was just rolling the wire cart. My boss eventually told me to drop my “investigation” and just suck it up, so I did.

  112. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @Dan Hayes

    Lineman is great financially but it is hard hot heavy work and wild hours, especially during storms and huge regional outages. Tough on marriages and families.

    Like most trades but even more so.

    Best combination of pay, benefits, stability with less than ass busting work is probably the railroad. Except for track gang and early on with signals maintenance, most crafts aren’t terribly tough, but car men and conductors will be doing some physical stuff, usually the pace is decent. Once you have a few years in with some seniority you’re not too likely to get laid off. RR Retirement is very good.

    Best factory job is McBoeing, at least in Washington State. Airline mechanics with the big carriers do ok as well. General aviation sucks, except if you get a corporate jet or large helo gig with a wealthy operator if you have experience on specific types or very niche fabrication or repair skills on certain things. (Those guys get siphoned off by NASCAR teams, which says something.) Aluminum fabricator/welders and composites specialists can do well sometimes having a foot in both fields.

    Elevator mechanic is also underrated. You have to start in the south or midwest, get journeyman, then you go to the Northeast, work ten or fifteen years and then go west coast or Las Vegas to retire out. Solid union, can be a safe job if you pay attention and don’t screw off. Can have side benefits- I went to A&P school with a guy who worked Manhattan and had a fairly long relationship with a B list actress who in addition to FWB action got him a SAG card and some work in commercials and a small appearance as a tradesman in a big sitcom in a couple of episodes. He will get a few bucks a year in residuals for a long time and still does a commercial or two once in a while. Something like thirty or forty percent of elevator guys are A&P’s, odd as that sounds.

    • Replies: @Dan Hayes
    , @Jim Don Bob
  113. Steve2 [AKA "StillStillSteve"] says:
    @Lawyer Guy

    Best solution is to get Little Monsters of all types to do their damn homework precollege. Lazy little sh•ts can’t be spun up once they show up in ruthless AArbor without loads of prior prep. They will either flunk out or take some useless degree. True regardless of phenotype. Grrr.

  114. @Kevin O'Keeffe

    Naw, you just have a bunch of debt. With all that entails.

  115. @Daniel H

    A good reason to quit reviving ODs.

  116. captflee says:
    @Bubba

    Now, Bubba…

    I intended no slight upon that august institution, nor claim any intellectual superiority over the alumni thereof. If there are major differences among the graduates of the various state and feral maritime academies I did not note them over the three plus decades of my sailing career, save perhaps the seemingly vast overrepresentation of Lun Guyland EyeTalians emerging from the one over at Great Nose.

    The bridge you earlier referenced, the one over Throggs Neck, and please do correct me if I err, is named the Throgs Neck Bridge, is it not? Please inform the TBTA of their spelling eccentricity if it offends thee.

    • Replies: @kaganovitch
    , @Bubba
  117. @Bubba

    They’re getting desperate enough for skilled employees that apprenticeships are coming back in NE Ohio.

    • Replies: @Bubba
  118. @Jack D

    If I recall correctly, the Classics Illustrated series (earlier Classic Comics) were an effort in the 1940s and 1950s to inculcate a knowledge, if not love, of classic novels in kids, as an attempt to push back on the comic book culture which had really taken off in that era, displacing earlier book reading habits among adolescents. It is possible that historical accuracy in visual details was toned down, so as not to push the young readers away. The idea, after all, was to entice them to get to know classic literature by reading comic books.

    I certainly remember disliking PiltdownBrother2’s Classic Illustrated comic books because they looked boringly “old” but I ended up reading them and getting to like many of them, because of his enthusiasm for them. Even so, some of the stories were a bit too gothic and grim for my taste.

    It’s also hard for us, in 2019, to remember than historical accuracy in visual depictions was really not a big thing in popular culture. Hollywood cape and sword historical costume dramas through the 1950s were not necessarily highly accurate—I can certainly remember my parents being particularly wowed by the attention that mid-60s movies like The Lion in Winter, Becket or A Man for All Seasons paid to historical accuracy. But it was only with Stanley Kubrick’s Barry Lyndon in 1975 that an expectation that historical movies would be totally accurate in their visual details really took hold.

    Not that any of that is pertinent today, in the era of the MCU blockbusters.

    • Replies: @Jack D
  119. @Dmon

    I don’t know why you used the term “major”, but California has 13 pharmacy schools. Ten of the schools have been established since 1996. Five of Tennessee’s six schools were established between 2005 and 2012.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pharmacy_schools_in_the_United_States

  120. Dan Hayes says:
    @Anonymous

    Anonymous[427]:

    Thanks for your most informative response.

  121. Corn says:
    @kaganovitch

    Elevator technician/repairman is a well paid trade too, though here in Illinois it’s unionized and I think it’s sort of a “who you know” thing to get in the union.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  122. @Mr McKenna

    We had a pharmacist in the extended family–she got into it because that’s where the drugs were.

    You can guess the rest of the story….

  123. @captflee

    The bridge you earlier referenced, the one over Throggs Neck, and please do correct me if I err, is named the Throgs Neck Bridge, is it not? Please inform the TBTA of their spelling eccentricity if it offends thee.

    Yup, here is pic of sign.

    • Replies: @prosa123
  124. Jack D says:
    @PiltdownMan

    Historical accuracy, even today, often gives way to the cultural conventions of an era. Maybe today the costumes are better but now they are putting black people in Elizabethan England and having women do stuff that women never did – this is even worse than inaccurate haircuts.

    In the olden days, Hollywood productions (aside from big budget pics like the Ten Commandments) often had less resources (and no CGI) compared to today – the whole country was poorer. But when you are drawing a comic book it doesn’t cost anything to draw the correct clothing and hairstyles of the era. But I think that you are right that they were trying to appeal to kids and get them to identify with the characters and treat them as heroes. So depicting Dana with his real 19th century haircut, which would have made him look like a woman to 1950s children’s eyes (no man had such long hair in that era) and a strange 19th century outfit would have been alienating to the target audience – the opposite of what they were trying for.

  125. @USNA 2009

    Yeah, that was the first thing I noticed, which makes the entire list suspect.

    Don’t know that everyone would be an O-4 at 10, but even an O-3 would be in the upper $70Ks with just base pay before the BAH on top.

    It’s true that many will have gotten out before 10 years and how much they are earning post-service plays into the average, but no way the service academies shouldn’t be on this list.

  126. post-woke says:
    @Triumph104

    Even Caltech has majors in the humanities.

    Are you sure? Quickly searching the Caltech directory I found zero matches of any kind for English, sociology, politics, etc. and ten departments of physics.

    • Replies: @Triumph104
  127. JMcG says:
    @Bubba

    Utilities have generally run their own apprentice programs, but the IBEW construction locals have their own programs. It’s gone back and forth a little over the years, but the IBEW apprenticeships are now definitely higher quality. Big utilities are now run by their HR departments with the concomitant reduction in merit hiring and training rigor.

    • Agree: Bubba
  128. Muggles says:

    While some have mentioned good jobs for non degreed workers, I should note that the badly maligned oil & gas industry, and it’s many related sub industries like pipelines and related manufacturing, have little or no formal education requirements. Other than Petroleum Engineers and geologists, many of whom in the old days (a few decades back) were not necessarily degreed in those specialties.

    Pay is excellent in oil/gas drilling though the work is long, hard and physical. Also dangerous.

    It is not surprisingly, very white and male. Big firms are trying to change that but it is still full of rural white farm and ranch kids from flyover country. Experience is what counts, and of course character and smarts.

    O&G is now on the Hate List of officially “bad” things, but in reality it is essential for civilization at the current time. I knew plenty of guys who worked 14/14, 21/21 or 28/28 overseas on offshore rigs and made hundreds of thousands working half time. Many had small farms/ranches. Hard work but it can still be done. Though cyclical. These jobs aren’t going away unless the USA goes full socialist/green. Then we all sit in the dark. Like the Cali Bay Area right now…

  129. Yngvar says:
    @JMcG

    A factory I once worked in lent me out to another company for a welding job. I was paid the standard collective agreement $10/hour. That was OK money back in those days. On a trip back to HQ one of the back-office guys told me in the break room that I was the most profitable worker the factory had; they were renting me out for 60. Shouddabeen an independent contractor! 🙂

    • Agree: JMcG
  130. prosa123 says:
    @kaganovitch

    The bridge is always spelled with one G, but the neighborhood itself can have one or two.

  131. @Anonymous

    Good story. What is A&P?

    • Replies: @JMcG
  132. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @Corn

    It’s unionized almost everywhere in the US, even in the scabbiest of scab states. Building owners do not want unqualified people working on elevators, and most insurance companies require elevators be maintained by crews with specific liability insurance. The only nonunion elevator maintenance I ever heard of (even here in the midwest) was at religious owned facilities: I knew a guy who worked for the Unity School of Christianity (sic) in Lee’s Summit as building maintenance who worked on theirs and damn near got himself killed when a douchebag fellow worker bypassed a lockout.

    Getting in the union depends on having the right background that appeals to the union and being in a union area where there are not hordes of people wanting to get their kids on. Theoretically in NYC, Boston, Chicago you can get an apprenticeship but there are like five slots and 500 guys with sons, grandsons, nephews, et al. You get on in the flyoverest of flyover country from a building maintenance, plumbing, millwright, etc background, but the most likely school they will go to is aviation maintenance, they think that’s a good match. Possibly heavy equipment, rigging, et al too. You do your apprenticeship out here and go east when a slot opens up, work east coast and make huge money as part of the bridge and tunnel crowd, then go west to retire out usually.

    • Replies: @JMcG
  133. JMcG says:
    @Anonymous

    That’s really interesting. I knew a woman once whose husband was an elevator guy. He went down a shaft about thirty feet and broke himself up pretty good. That would have been late 80’s in Philly.

  134. Bubba says:
    @captflee

    Thanks Captain Blowhard, but that’s quite a drunken whale tale you do tell.

    No offense taken and sorry to hurt your feelings.

    The USPS still uses “Throggs Neck.”

    The land area you described is “Throggs Neck” and has been for 2 centuries.

    Robert Moses (very creepy politician, corrupt builder and a cheap bastard) had the highway signs for the bridge to read “Throgs Neck” to save money by eliminating a “g” hence the bastardization.

    http://bronxpresspolitics.blogspot.com/2012/01/throggs-neck-or-throgs-neck.html

    https://www.facebook.com/ThroggsNeckHomeowners/

    • Replies: @captflee
  135. Bubba says:
    @JMcG

    …especially considering they never actually handle anything energized.

    Well they’re not supposed to handle anything energized, but unfortunately it happens occasionally. Drawings not updated, backfeeding a circuit, improper LOTO, etc…

    And when it does happen the poor electrician always gets blamed and suffers the most.

    • Replies: @JMcG
  136. Bubba says:
    @Redneck farmer

    That’s good news and I hope it catches on quickly as it can’t happen fast enough.

  137. Ian M. says:

    Yale and U. of Michigan tend to be more exclusive at keeping out the riff-raff…

    Michigan has plenty of riff-raff. Just of a different sort than the type you have in mind.

  138. IC says:
    @Mr McKenna

    Just make sure you have a proper lawyer in the family as well.

  139. IC says:
    @Grumpy

    It’s not uncommon for 50 percent of the students at regional public universities to leave without graduating. This could all be stopped at the admissions office, but that’s not in the interest of the university.

    Exactly. This is all part of the Liberal Academic Welfare State funded by taxpayer backed student loans. I had hoped Trump would have pulled the feds out of this scam so there would be a lot of unemployed liberals along with lower tuition costs. Having colleges back student loans instead would have been a game changer.

    • Agree: Jim Don Bob
  140. captflee says:
    @Bubba

    My dear Bubba,

    No hurt feelings here, just puzzled bemusement. You have if anything engendered much mirth here.

    Drunken whale tale? Now I do favor the occasional wee dram, but my consumption rate of a fifth per annum, very rarely more than one per month, would seem to indicate otherwise.

    Blowhard? Got a mirror, pal?

    Thanks for the local info, though.

    I eagerly await your rejoinder.

  141. JMcG says:
    @Jim Don Bob

    Airframe and Powerplant. The FAA certifies mechanics who are allowed to work on aircraft.

  142. JMcG says:
    @Bubba

    True enough. Always test before touch.

  143. MEH 0910 says:

    OT:

    H/T:

    • Replies: @MEH 0910
    , @MEH 0910
  144. MEH 0910 says:
    @MEH 0910

    The Daily Orange Retweeted:

  145. MEH 0910 says:
    @MEH 0910

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