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Time: "What History Can Tell Us About the Fallout from Restricting Immigration"
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From Time Magazine:

What History Can Tell Us About the Fallout From Restricting Immigration
David C. Atkinson
Feb 03, 2017

Oh, sorry, wrong picture of the fallout from restricting immigration in the 1920s. Instead, Time used:

Japanese demonstrators protest against Japanese exclusion in the new American immigration bill, in Tokyo in 1924. New York Daily News Archive / Getty Images

See, the immigration restriction laws of 1921-24 were why the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor in 1941.

It was our fault, just like it will be Trump’s fault when Muslims who couldn’t get into the United States blow up the United States.

 
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  1. Anon says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    Why those DAMN CHINESE. How dare they impose Japanese Exclusion Act in China.

    There had been no Japanese invasion into China. It was just immigration to enrich China, but Chiang, the Chinese Trump pissed them off, and it led to war.

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  2. Anon says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    Oddly enough, Japanese immigration to the US has been pretty low since end of WWII, even after 1965 immigration act.

    So, what does that tell ya? Its’ best for people to stay home and build their own economies. The best of Japan stayed in Japan and built all those nice corporations.

    So, Japan grew. Suppose they’d all decided to come to the US.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Olorin
    Exactly. And they sold us an ess-load of cars since then, too.
  3. Anon says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    Didn’t Japan attack the US because the West said NO to Japanese ‘immigration’ into rest of Asia?

    I dunno…

    We were told that Japanese colonization of Asia was a bad thing. And then, after WWII, we were told that Asian struggle for liberation from European imperialism was a good thing. And plenty of anti-war Americans believed the Vietnamese were right in trying to force the Americans out of South Vietnam.

    So, resisting invasion was seen as a good thing.

    But now, we are told that white Americans should embrace colonization by the Third World. Why?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Calogero
    The people in charge hate us, that's the main reason why.
    , @Desiderius

    We were told that Japanese colonization of Asia was a bad thing. And then, after WWII, we were told that Asian struggle for liberation from European imperialism was a good thing. And plenty of anti-war Americans believed the Vietnamese were right in trying to force the Americans out of South Vietnam.
     
    Back then the globalists wanted Asia for themselves.

    Now they want America.
  4. Apparently the immigration restrictions in the ’24 act didn’t apply to Nazi rocket scientists or else there would be no moon picture.

    Read More
    • Replies: @DenJae
    True at many levels of the APOLLO program.

    My father arrived USA 1921. I became a "first generation American" kid engineer working on SNAP systems development in the 1960's. (Systems for Nuclear Auxiliary Power) (Subsequents still in use for Mars, etc.) Nice aside, Neil Armstrong became a prof at the engineering school that I had attended during those years.

    One of the key scientist-engineers that I worked for was first-gen Lebanese. Parents arrived around 1920. Got his start on the Manhattan Project. Later rose to "same-say-as-CEO" authority at one of USA's Fortune-Fifty companies of the day.

    Steve's use of the moon-shot pic wrong me and others on several levels.
    , @celt darnell
    Well, if you some Ghanaian or Zulu rocket scientists to spare...
    , @Autochthon
    You've made an excellent point, and I wholly agree:

    Homogeneous populations (e.g., Europeans; white people) can successfully integrate with each other and achieve amazing things.

    Heterogeneous, incompatible populations (whites, blacks, yellows, browns, reds) lead to constant conflict and decreased productivity.

    It's almost as though close interaction and collaboration among siblings and cousins positively affects participants, strengthening reciprocal affection and enabling support among those with shared interests, but forcing strangers to live in close quarters and share everything causes resentment, misunderstanding, and even fighting.

    Why, indeed, it's almost as if a race is a an extremely extended family. Where have a I encountered that insight before...?

    , @Anonymous
    They weren't immigrants. They were a war prize.
  5. Daniel Greenfield has called this the “Let us in or we’ll kill you” argument.

    http://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/265649/if-we-dont-let-muslims-america-theyll-kill-us-daniel-greenfield

    Read More
    • Replies: @Clifford Brown
    I refer to it as the "Heeeeere's Johnny" argument for Muslim immigration.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDpipB4yehk


    Yeah, I never quite understood why this argument is made. Japan does not allow Muslim immigration and yet it has not been the victim of Muslim terrorism. I am not allowed to migrate to Saudi Arabia or North Korea, but I am not plotting to kill the citizens of either of those countries. Even thinking of how this could be justified disgusts me deeply.

    The weirdest aspect is that this argument is made by Muslim supporters and security experts unironically. I don't get it.
  6. anon says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    Talk about cherry-picking facts to support an unsupportable argument.
    One example is Atkinson’s claim of immigration restriction causing the attack on Pearl Harbor, editing out Japan’s primitive, savage actions against China and other countries, that had a direct affect on the attitude of this country at the time, as well as their pronounced resistance of assimilating into American culture. Most Japanese, before the war, sent their children abroad to Japanese Universities prior to the war, because they believed they were superior. Japanese were about as racist as your average KKK member. Race pride was certainly a significant factor in the Japanese psyche.

    The well documented consumption of Australian prisoners and others during the war gives us a clue of the culture we were actively restricting. American’s have never taken a shine to cannibalism, have never apologized for their prejudice against it, and hopefully never will.

    Eating prisoner’s of war is just not the American way. Using rifle butts to play Whack-a-Mole with Chinese babies, and murdering and raping entire towns is also on our no-no list.

    To put in easy-to-understand perspective, even the Nazi’s were appalled by Japanese primitive savagery. Some members famously attempted to arrest the Japanese animalistic carnage across China years before we entered the War.

    Speak to any “greatest generation” individual still alive, who saw action in the Pacific theatre during the war, and the majority hate Japanese guts to this day. I think it’s fair to say this reflects poorly on Japanese soldier’s behavior during the war, and the “rumor” that they fought like bloodthirsty animals might carry a bit of truth. The German’s, as tough and brutal as they were, created far less rancor in the minds of American soldiers after the war, for pretty good reason.

    It’s a perverse sort of bigotry for Atkinson to imply, through glaring omission, that the Japanese shouldn’t be judged by modern standards because they were just primitive little yellow devils who didn’t know any better at the time. Don’t slaughter and eat Australian soldiers? Death marches aren’t considered “cricket”? Who knew?

    David Atkinson is an inauthentic, anti-intellectual asshole. I hope I never get as cynical about people in general, or Japanese in particular as that lying piece of such and such.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Autochthon, @Anonymous Nephew
    In the 50s and 60s there were two best-selling books on war crimes by Lord Russell of Liverpool, a member of the legal teams at Nuremberg.

    The Scourge Of The Swastika, on German war crimes, is still in print.

    The Knights Of Bushido, on Japanese war crimes, is out of print.

    And when former British servicemen protested against the Japanese Emperor on his 1998 visit, there was no shortage of young Guardianistas to tell them not to be racist, and that it was wrong to cling onto the past.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/101125.stm
    , @ganderson
    Spot on! Read E B Sledge, or Robert Leckie, or William Manchester for further details.
    , @Randal

    Talk about cherry-picking facts to support an unsupportable argument.
    One example is Atkinson’s claim of immigration restriction causing the attack on Pearl Harbor, editing out Japan’s primitive, savage actions against China and other countries, that had a direct affect on the attitude of this country at the time, as well as their pronounced resistance of assimilating into American culture. Most Japanese, before the war, sent their children abroad to Japanese Universities prior to the war, because they believed they were superior. Japanese were about as racist as your average KKK member. Race pride was certainly a significant factor in the Japanese psyche.
     
    Well if you want a proper description of the events that led up to the Japanese decision to wage a preventive "Bush doctrine" war against the US, commencing with an attack on Pearl Harbor, the best brief summary is the inimitable Pat Buchanan's essay on the topic:

    Why Did Japan Attack Us?

    It ain't rocket science - push people and they will, in the end, push back, if they've anything about them.

    But for sure it had nothing whatsoever to do with immigration restrictions and Atkinson is a misleading propagandist.

    Eating prisoner’s of war is just not the American way.
     
    No, the American way, as officially practiced by the US government, is gratuitous "rectal feeding".

    The American Way
  7. The “we have to let them in so they don’t get made and attack us” is about the least convincing argument one could make, yet we see it so often…

    Read More
    • Replies: @Ttjy
    "

    The “we have to let them in so they don’t get made and attack us” is about the least convincing argument one could make, yet we see it so often…
     
    "

    Slight variation: Let us in to kill you or we will kill you.
  8. @Anon
    Didn't Japan attack the US because the West said NO to Japanese 'immigration' into rest of Asia?

    I dunno...

    We were told that Japanese colonization of Asia was a bad thing. And then, after WWII, we were told that Asian struggle for liberation from European imperialism was a good thing. And plenty of anti-war Americans believed the Vietnamese were right in trying to force the Americans out of South Vietnam.

    So, resisting invasion was seen as a good thing.

    But now, we are told that white Americans should embrace colonization by the Third World. Why?

    The people in charge hate us, that’s the main reason why.

    Read More
  9. But if we had allowed more Japanese immigration, wouldn’t we have committed an even greater stain on our nation by internment of even more nips than we did?

    OT – Steve, what do you think about a redux of Hogan’s Heroes set in a Japanese Internment Camp instead of Stalag 13 ?

    Read More
  10. No joke, in middle school, high school, and college I was taught that the Japanese did indeed attack Pearl Harbor because of western racism.

    Japanese atrocities in China and elsewhere were blamed on European intellectual or cultural influence (usually Christianity or Prussian militarism).

    I remember one Chinese female professor who was absolutely convinced that the Katana-wielding Japanese soldiers rampaging through Nanking were, to a man, motivated by Darwinism.

    Read More
    • Replies: @ganderson
    I used to teach an online AP US History class. The World War II Pacific Theater unit (the course was prewritten for me- I could, however make some changes. ) It was basically Japanese internment and the horror of the A-bomb. I let the student know of my objections in the discussion threads.
    , @MarkinLA
    I remember one Chinese female professor who was absolutely convinced that the Katana-wielding Japanese soldiers rampaging through Nanking were, to a man, motivated by Darwinism.

    To a certain extent yes, The Japanese were the superior Asian race. Killing Chinese wasn't real killing.
  11. Atkinson seems to be a hammer in pursuit of a very particular nail:

    David C. Atkinson is assistant professor of history at Purdue University. He is the author of The Burden of White Supremacy: Containing Asian Migration in the British Empire and the United States, which explores the diplomatic tensions caused by immigration restriction in the early 20th century.

    Read More
  12. Read More
  13. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    The people in charge now don’t hate us. Trumpening is a new era. Illegals are going to be leaving en masse. Congress now talking about halving legal immigration.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Opinionator
    Most of the people in charge do hate us, it is an overwhelming number if you include the entire power structure.

    The only people who are trying to defend us are Trump, a tiny cadre of advisors, and a handful of lawmakers.
    , @MarkinLA
    Congress now talking about halving legal immigration.

    Don't hold you breath. I have been hearing for almost a decade through NumberUSA that some Republican Congressman was going to move mandatory E-Verify through the House. I think I still have the CIS link to the article where the Republican legislators brag to their Mexican counterparts how they include language to scuttle their own legislation.

    Some legislators had also mentioned to us (oftentimes laughing) how they had "defanged" or "gutted" anti-immigration bills and measures, by neglecting to fund this program or tabling that provision, or deleting the other measure, etc. "Yes, we passed that law, but it can’t work because we also…" was a usual comment to assuage the Mexican delegations.

    http://cis.org/Usurpation-Elites-People%27sWill
  14. @Arclight
    The "we have to let them in so they don't get made and attack us" is about the least convincing argument one could make, yet we see it so often...

    The “we have to let them in so they don’t get made and attack us” is about the least convincing argument one could make, yet we see it so often…

    Slight variation: Let us in to kill you or we will kill you.

    Read More
  15. Read More
    • Replies: @oddsbodkins
    Alarmist paranoia. The radiation levels in the pacific fisheries from Fukishima are vastly smaller than background radiation levels.
  16. The argument about restricting Japanese (or East Asian) immigration as being something that led to war is silly, as is the parallel argument that we cannot restrict MENA immigration because it will make Muslim terrorists mad.

    However, the article is actually pretty good because by referring to the Harding XO and the Coolidge law, which restricted (but did not completely shut down) immigration from Poland, Greece, Italy, Yugoslavia, as well as Jews, was actually pretty effective because there are a lot of assimilated white Americans with ancestry from those countries. However, at minimum, there was actually some tradition of persons of those nationalities being involved in what we would now call “terrorist” activities, going back to the assassination of McKinley and even earlier. (I think Sacco and Vanzetti happened the year before Coolidge’s signing.)

    Something that always struck me as odd is that the 1921 Order ( in terms of “national origins”) was keyed to the 1910 census, but the 1924 Law was keyed to the 1890 census, even though that very same census (notoriously, for anyone who has ever done family history) was destroyed by fire in 1921. That seems a little weird to me.

    Read More
    • Replies: @guest
    There was a tendency among certain ethnic types (especially lowlives) to be commie terrorists, yes. I wouldn't go so far as to say they successfully assimilated, because I'm coming more and more to believe American culture drastically changed in that period. But we came out after a few generations--thanks to mass media and wars and such--with a pretty solid monoculture, so whether you want to call it American or not I guess it worked. Among white people, who blend well, anyway.
    , @Jack D
    They went back to the earlier census in order to get the ratios skewed more in favor of northwestern Europe . They didn't need the whole census, just the #'s admitted from each country.
    , @bomag

    ...there was actually some tradition of persons of those nationalities being involved in what we would now call “terrorist” activities...
     
    Why has the immigration debate come down to just wanting to keep out the violent? It is completely acceptable to keep out the very nice. We should be able to populate the country with our own people; or just enjoy the pleasures of more elbow room one would get from having fewer people around.
    , @Desiderius

    However, the article is actually pretty good because by referring to the Harding XO and the Coolidge law, which restricted (but did not completely shut down) immigration from Poland, Greece, Italy, Yugoslavia, as well as Jews, was actually pretty effective because there are a lot of assimilated white Americans with ancestry from those countries.
     
    We need another similar pause now to give us time to assimilate Americans from the countries of Harvard, Stanford, and various StateUs.
    , @Corvinus
    "The argument about restricting Japanese (or East Asian) immigration as being something that led to war is silly."

    When Japan defeated Russia in 1905, it established Japan as a geopolitical rival to the United States in the Pacific. This increased awareness of Japanese power in the United States led in part to increased agitation against the menacing Japanese presence. President Theodore Roosevelt, however, urged caution to prevent directly insulting the Japanese government.

    Regarding this Japanese presence, The United North American Japanese Association in the 1920's had produced a very detailed census of the American Japanese population from a regional perspective, refuting the charges made against the Japanese that they were reproducing at an alarming rate. In responding to accusations of unfair farming practices, it reported, “According to these facts it seems to me that the Japanese farmer is more intensive in dairy farming than the other people engaged in the same business. The amount of milk produced per acre and the number of cows per acre on the farms operated by the Japanese is larger than that produced by others. In other words, there is less waste and the farming itself is conducted on a more intensive basis.”

    When James Sakamoto was asked about his duty to military service for America in the 1920's, he indicated "I will go it", remaining true to his sentiment twenty-years later as he became part of those Japanese males who volunteered and swore to "uncover any saboteurs.”
  17. @Jack D
    Apparently the immigration restrictions in the '24 act didn't apply to Nazi rocket scientists or else there would be no moon picture.

    True at many levels of the APOLLO program.

    My father arrived USA 1921. I became a “first generation American” kid engineer working on SNAP systems development in the 1960′s. (Systems for Nuclear Auxiliary Power) (Subsequents still in use for Mars, etc.) Nice aside, Neil Armstrong became a prof at the engineering school that I had attended during those years.

    One of the key scientist-engineers that I worked for was first-gen Lebanese. Parents arrived around 1920. Got his start on the Manhattan Project. Later rose to “same-say-as-CEO” authority at one of USA’s Fortune-Fifty companies of the day.

    Steve’s use of the moon-shot pic wrong me and others on several levels.

    Read More
  18. The effects of limiting immigration would be a narrowing of the gap between rich and poor; rising wages for low income people, especially blacks; more affordable property values; less social dysfunction. If you think about it Trump’s Wall would do more for black Americans than any single policy initiative over the past 50 years.

    Read More
  19. @Jack D
    Apparently the immigration restrictions in the '24 act didn't apply to Nazi rocket scientists or else there would be no moon picture.

    Well, if you some Ghanaian or Zulu rocket scientists to spare…

    Read More
    • Replies: @TheJester
    The US intelligence services sneaked the Nazi rocket scientists into the country after WWII. Then, the rocket scientists were directed to maintain a low profile as they worked on military ballistic missiles and eventually the moon shot. The low profile apparently succeeded since the latest historical narrative is that was Afro-American women who took us to the moon.
  20. @Jack D
    Apparently the immigration restrictions in the '24 act didn't apply to Nazi rocket scientists or else there would be no moon picture.

    You’ve made an excellent point, and I wholly agree:

    Homogeneous populations (e.g., Europeans; white people) can successfully integrate with each other and achieve amazing things.

    Heterogeneous, incompatible populations (whites, blacks, yellows, browns, reds) lead to constant conflict and decreased productivity.

    It’s almost as though close interaction and collaboration among siblings and cousins positively affects participants, strengthening reciprocal affection and enabling support among those with shared interests, but forcing strangers to live in close quarters and share everything causes resentment, misunderstanding, and even fighting.

    Why, indeed, it’s almost as if a race is a an extremely extended family. Where have a I encountered that insight before…?

    Read More
  21. @SPMoore8
    The argument about restricting Japanese (or East Asian) immigration as being something that led to war is silly, as is the parallel argument that we cannot restrict MENA immigration because it will make Muslim terrorists mad.

    However, the article is actually pretty good because by referring to the Harding XO and the Coolidge law, which restricted (but did not completely shut down) immigration from Poland, Greece, Italy, Yugoslavia, as well as Jews, was actually pretty effective because there are a lot of assimilated white Americans with ancestry from those countries. However, at minimum, there was actually some tradition of persons of those nationalities being involved in what we would now call "terrorist" activities, going back to the assassination of McKinley and even earlier. (I think Sacco and Vanzetti happened the year before Coolidge's signing.)

    Something that always struck me as odd is that the 1921 Order ( in terms of "national origins") was keyed to the 1910 census, but the 1924 Law was keyed to the 1890 census, even though that very same census (notoriously, for anyone who has ever done family history) was destroyed by fire in 1921. That seems a little weird to me.

    There was a tendency among certain ethnic types (especially lowlives) to be commie terrorists, yes. I wouldn’t go so far as to say they successfully assimilated, because I’m coming more and more to believe American culture drastically changed in that period. But we came out after a few generations–thanks to mass media and wars and such–with a pretty solid monoculture, so whether you want to call it American or not I guess it worked. Among white people, who blend well, anyway.

    Read More
  22. @SPMoore8
    The argument about restricting Japanese (or East Asian) immigration as being something that led to war is silly, as is the parallel argument that we cannot restrict MENA immigration because it will make Muslim terrorists mad.

    However, the article is actually pretty good because by referring to the Harding XO and the Coolidge law, which restricted (but did not completely shut down) immigration from Poland, Greece, Italy, Yugoslavia, as well as Jews, was actually pretty effective because there are a lot of assimilated white Americans with ancestry from those countries. However, at minimum, there was actually some tradition of persons of those nationalities being involved in what we would now call "terrorist" activities, going back to the assassination of McKinley and even earlier. (I think Sacco and Vanzetti happened the year before Coolidge's signing.)

    Something that always struck me as odd is that the 1921 Order ( in terms of "national origins") was keyed to the 1910 census, but the 1924 Law was keyed to the 1890 census, even though that very same census (notoriously, for anyone who has ever done family history) was destroyed by fire in 1921. That seems a little weird to me.

    They went back to the earlier census in order to get the ratios skewed more in favor of northwestern Europe . They didn’t need the whole census, just the #’s admitted from each country.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Spmoore8
    Oh, I know why they used the 1890 census, I just think it's odd that they relied on a census whose percentages could no longer be challenged. Noamsayin?
  23. @SPMoore8
    The argument about restricting Japanese (or East Asian) immigration as being something that led to war is silly, as is the parallel argument that we cannot restrict MENA immigration because it will make Muslim terrorists mad.

    However, the article is actually pretty good because by referring to the Harding XO and the Coolidge law, which restricted (but did not completely shut down) immigration from Poland, Greece, Italy, Yugoslavia, as well as Jews, was actually pretty effective because there are a lot of assimilated white Americans with ancestry from those countries. However, at minimum, there was actually some tradition of persons of those nationalities being involved in what we would now call "terrorist" activities, going back to the assassination of McKinley and even earlier. (I think Sacco and Vanzetti happened the year before Coolidge's signing.)

    Something that always struck me as odd is that the 1921 Order ( in terms of "national origins") was keyed to the 1910 census, but the 1924 Law was keyed to the 1890 census, even though that very same census (notoriously, for anyone who has ever done family history) was destroyed by fire in 1921. That seems a little weird to me.

    …there was actually some tradition of persons of those nationalities being involved in what we would now call “terrorist” activities…

    Why has the immigration debate come down to just wanting to keep out the violent? It is completely acceptable to keep out the very nice. We should be able to populate the country with our own people; or just enjoy the pleasures of more elbow room one would get from having fewer people around.

    Read More
    • Replies: @MBlanc46
    Absolutely. It's our country. We entirely within our rights to say who, if anyone, is allowed in.
    , @MarkinLA
    You have to take it one step at a time. Any suggestion that some people aren't as good as others goes nowhere now.
  24. Immigration policy had zero to do with Pearl Harbor. The U.S. wanting to preserve the Far East Euro-American empire in the face of Japanese expansionism did. Unless Japan conquered China out of spite for not being able to send its wretched refuse over here. Which it didn’t.

    They did so partly to preempt the Soviet Union, among other things, but you won’t read about that much in our terminally superficial MSM. Nor will you hear much about the FDR administration goading Japan into war, except as part of the politically acceptable we were terrible racists narrative.

    Read More
    • Agree: jacques sheete
    • Replies: @Autochthon
    And who can forget how Roosevelt goaded the Japanese into raping and sodomising ten-year-old Chinese girls, cannibalising Australians, etc. Why, it's a wonder the long suffering, put-upon Japanese exercised as much restraint as they did for so long, and even then reacted in such measured ways, what with the nasty Americans maintaining coaling stations in Guam and such: the horror!

    When I was in knee-pants, my father told many a tale of how, when the magnanimous Japanese liberated the Philippines from the nasty American imperialists, the newly-independent nation had dancing in the streets for days. Yet mendacious Western propaganda would have you believe the U.S.A. was in the process of withdrawing from the Philippines sua sponte, and only remained at the natives' urging to defend against an imminent Japanese invasion. The propaganda even goes so far as to suggest the Americans did in fact leave the Philippines to govern themselves shortly after the Second World War ended.

    Even the natives were brainwashed, erecting and maintaining reverently to this very day monumental statues of Douglas MacArthur in gratitude. Real Stockholm syndrome stuff, huh?

    I leave as an exercise to the reader to ask any elderly Filipino or Micronesian to assess the relative merits of Japanese and Americans during the 1940s.
  25. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @Jack D
    Apparently the immigration restrictions in the '24 act didn't apply to Nazi rocket scientists or else there would be no moon picture.

    They weren’t immigrants. They were a war prize.

    Read More
  26. Just to play Devil’s Advocate, I do see a plausible argument that a more open immigration policy can reduce the enthusiasm for military adventurism among a nation’s citizens. It’s more difficult to dehumanize an opposing country when many of your own citizens originally came from there. For example, it’s safe to say that during WW2 the Japanese were far more hated than the Germans. Obviously there’s the racial angle, but Americans were also far more familiar with German culture due to the large number of German-descended citizens. And when it came to the Japanese, as far as Americans were concerned, Pearl Harbor may have just as well been bombed by aliens from outer space.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Diversity Heretic
    There was a fair amount of animosity directed against Germans in the U.S. in World War I. In World War II, not so much.
    , @guest
    There was ridiculous anti-German propaganda in both WWI and II, though moreso with I. We treated them horribly viciously, on par with how we treated the Japanese, though with less dehumanization. Certainly it was harder to pump up animosity given how many Americans were of German extraction, but what's the difference when it ends in Hamburg, Berlin, Dresden, Nuremberg, etc.? That's after the war got rolling, however, which is the hard part.

    Not hard enough. We fought our two biggest wars ever two-thirds against them, despite our massive ethnic German population. I believe they would have found a way to jump in the fight with or without Pearl Harbor. (In fact, Pearl Harbor was their way, custom-ordered, though I don't think Washington got exactly what it expected.) People still underestimate propaganda's effectiveness, as well as people's ignorance. People remain ignorant enough even of that which they know well.

    Say you speak German and have knowledge of German culture and history. Ah, but do you know what's happened? The devil has taken it over, and turned it upsidedown. We've got to root him out! (Don't bother wondering how many innocents that'll endangered; we won't talk to you about that part.) You don't need to convince the public Germany is full of man-eating insects like Japan to get them to fight.

    None of this is pertinent, anyway, because there's no way the U.S. is ever going to have a Muslim population as big as its German population. Lest it stop being the U.S. Which may have already happened.
  27. @anon
    Talk about cherry-picking facts to support an unsupportable argument.
    One example is Atkinson's claim of immigration restriction causing the attack on Pearl Harbor, editing out Japan's primitive, savage actions against China and other countries, that had a direct affect on the attitude of this country at the time, as well as their pronounced resistance of assimilating into American culture. Most Japanese, before the war, sent their children abroad to Japanese Universities prior to the war, because they believed they were superior. Japanese were about as racist as your average KKK member. Race pride was certainly a significant factor in the Japanese psyche.

    The well documented consumption of Australian prisoners and others during the war gives us a clue of the culture we were actively restricting. American's have never taken a shine to cannibalism, have never apologized for their prejudice against it, and hopefully never will.

    Eating prisoner's of war is just not the American way. Using rifle butts to play Whack-a-Mole with Chinese babies, and murdering and raping entire towns is also on our no-no list.

    To put in easy-to-understand perspective, even the Nazi's were appalled by Japanese primitive savagery. Some members famously attempted to arrest the Japanese animalistic carnage across China years before we entered the War.

    Speak to any "greatest generation" individual still alive, who saw action in the Pacific theatre during the war, and the majority hate Japanese guts to this day. I think it's fair to say this reflects poorly on Japanese soldier's behavior during the war, and the "rumor" that they fought like bloodthirsty animals might carry a bit of truth. The German's, as tough and brutal as they were, created far less rancor in the minds of American soldiers after the war, for pretty good reason.

    It's a perverse sort of bigotry for Atkinson to imply, through glaring omission, that the Japanese shouldn't be judged by modern standards because they were just primitive little yellow devils who didn't know any better at the time. Don't slaughter and eat Australian soldiers? Death marches aren't considered "cricket"? Who knew?

    David Atkinson is an inauthentic, anti-intellectual asshole. I hope I never get as cynical about people in general, or Japanese in particular as that lying piece of such and such.

    Quite so. “The Japanese people were not nice people in those days.”

    Another hobbyhorse of revisionists like Atkinson is the ostensibly inhumane destruction of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, when in fact it was anything but.

    As ever, though, the yellow Japanese must be ret-conned as victims even as the sins of the white Germans are exaggerated.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Bill
    Yeah, if we had not dropped the bomb, we would have, instead, done something even more grotesquely immoral. Therefore, dropping the bomb was a good thing.
  28. @Anon
    Didn't Japan attack the US because the West said NO to Japanese 'immigration' into rest of Asia?

    I dunno...

    We were told that Japanese colonization of Asia was a bad thing. And then, after WWII, we were told that Asian struggle for liberation from European imperialism was a good thing. And plenty of anti-war Americans believed the Vietnamese were right in trying to force the Americans out of South Vietnam.

    So, resisting invasion was seen as a good thing.

    But now, we are told that white Americans should embrace colonization by the Third World. Why?

    We were told that Japanese colonization of Asia was a bad thing. And then, after WWII, we were told that Asian struggle for liberation from European imperialism was a good thing. And plenty of anti-war Americans believed the Vietnamese were right in trying to force the Americans out of South Vietnam.

    Back then the globalists wanted Asia for themselves.

    Now they want America.

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  29. To be fair to the Japanese immigrants to the U.S. and their children born here (unlike the Imperialist Japanese of that era), they did give us this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/442nd_Infantry_Regiment_(United_States)

    The 442nd Regimental Combat Team is an infantry regiment of the United States Army, part of the Army Reserve. The regiment was a fighting unit composed almost entirely of American soldiers of Japanese ancestry who fought in World War II. Most of the families of mainland Japanese Americans were confined to internment camps in the United States interior. Beginning in 1944, the regiment fought primarily in Europe during World War II,[2] in particular Italy, southern France, and Germany.

    The 442nd Regiment was the most decorated unit for its size and length of service in the history of American warfare.[3] The 4,000 men who initially made up the unit in April 1943 had to be replaced nearly 2.5 times. In total, about 14,000 men served, earning 9,486 Purple Hearts. The unit was awarded eight Presidential Unit Citations (five earned in one month).[4]:201 Twenty-one of its members were awarded Medals of Honor.[2] Its motto was “Go for Broke”.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Diversity Heretic
    The use by western European nations and the United States, of Asian, African, and Arab troops against our German and Italian cousins is one of the major tragedies of World Wars I and II.
    , @Dan Hayes
    Twinkle:

    Is this story of Japanese American valor too good to be true? Not so. I once worked with an accountant who served in WW II. He told me that many of the Nisei servicemen he encountered seemed to be bandaged up after battle. He told me that they were out to prove something. Very remarkable and very moving.

    On a contrary note. Roger D. McGrath has pointed that indigenous Japanese supported Imperial Japan in conquered territories. Perhaps Nisei were the exception to the rule. If so, they were a very remarkable exception!

    , @MarkinLA
    And there were Japanese spies

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takeo_Yoshikawa
  30. @SPMoore8
    The argument about restricting Japanese (or East Asian) immigration as being something that led to war is silly, as is the parallel argument that we cannot restrict MENA immigration because it will make Muslim terrorists mad.

    However, the article is actually pretty good because by referring to the Harding XO and the Coolidge law, which restricted (but did not completely shut down) immigration from Poland, Greece, Italy, Yugoslavia, as well as Jews, was actually pretty effective because there are a lot of assimilated white Americans with ancestry from those countries. However, at minimum, there was actually some tradition of persons of those nationalities being involved in what we would now call "terrorist" activities, going back to the assassination of McKinley and even earlier. (I think Sacco and Vanzetti happened the year before Coolidge's signing.)

    Something that always struck me as odd is that the 1921 Order ( in terms of "national origins") was keyed to the 1910 census, but the 1924 Law was keyed to the 1890 census, even though that very same census (notoriously, for anyone who has ever done family history) was destroyed by fire in 1921. That seems a little weird to me.

    However, the article is actually pretty good because by referring to the Harding XO and the Coolidge law, which restricted (but did not completely shut down) immigration from Poland, Greece, Italy, Yugoslavia, as well as Jews, was actually pretty effective because there are a lot of assimilated white Americans with ancestry from those countries.

    We need another similar pause now to give us time to assimilate Americans from the countries of Harvard, Stanford, and various StateUs.

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  31. @Jack D
    They went back to the earlier census in order to get the ratios skewed more in favor of northwestern Europe . They didn't need the whole census, just the #'s admitted from each country.

    Oh, I know why they used the 1890 census, I just think it’s odd that they relied on a census whose percentages could no longer be challenged. Noamsayin?

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  32. anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    “Apparently the immigration restrictions in the ’24 act didn’t apply to Nazi rocket scientists or else there would be no moon picture.”

    Von Braun likely wouldn’t have claimed that. Perhaps it would have taken another half decade. But maybe not. Within a few years of getting started the US aviation industry was surpassing the Germans, particularly as they began to apply computers to aerospace problems. Heck, the original rocket work that inspired Von Braun was by the American pioneer, Robert Goddard, it’s not like rockets were some magic German pixie dust. It was not like the US didn’t have a larger and more successful aviation industry than Germany by that time, an industry that also had considerable experience in rocketry by the end of the war, jato and all that. As to bettering Von Braun’s Germans:

    “…the first-stage rocket engine for the Navaho began with two refurbished V-2 engines in 1947. That same year, the phase II engine was designed, the XLR-41-NA-1, a simplified version of the V-2 engine made from American parts. The phase III engine, XLR-43-NA-… adopted a cylindrical combustion chamber with the experimental German impinging-stream injector plate. Engineers at North American were able to solve the combustion stability problem, which had prevented it being used in the V-2, and the engine was successfully tested at full power in 1951. The Phase IV engine, XLR-43-NA-3 (120K), replaced the poorly cooled heavy German engine wall with a brazed tubular (“spaghetti”) construction, which was becoming the new standard…”

    Then there’s this–:

    “…in 1963, von Braun, reflecting on the history of rocketry, said of Goddard: “His rockets … may have been rather crude by present-day standards, but they blazed the trail and incorporated many features used in our most modern rockets and space vehicles”. He once recalled that “Goddard’s experiments in liquid fuel saved us years of work, and enabled us to perfect the V-2 years before it would have been possible.”

    So sounds like if it hadn’t been for Americans, the Germans may have never gotten to London? This is all silly.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Who had a better 1945? The Germans with their rockets, cruise missiles, and jets? Or the Americans with their old fashioned piston-powered strategic bombers and long range fighters?
    , @Jack D
    The Russians did the same thing with their Nazi rocket scientists. They downloaded all their knowledge and then after a few years when they were done with them they sent them home and ran an indigenous program (which was nicer than what we did - we kept all those Germans in Alabama). It's like those things where you fire your IT Dept. and then force them to train their Indian replacements.

    Assuming the Russians had done this and we hadn't then the Russians would have been say 5 years ahead of us. The moon is a lifeless rock with no value except propaganda value, so if the Russians had beaten us there (and it was pretty close) , we would never have gone, just as the Russians quit as soon as we beat them.
    , @Whoever

    It was not like the US didn’t have a larger and more successful aviation industry than Germany
     
    This can't be emphasized enough. Most of the technological innovations in the development of the airplane, from the turn-and-bank indicator to the Fowler flap, were American, and in NACA we had a research organization second to none.
    The whole Operation Paper Clip episode reminds me of how at the beginning of the war, the government pushed our industry to produce British stuff. A well-known example is how Emerson Electronics, then headed by Stuart Symington, was ordered to manufacture a British gun turret, instead of just designing and manufacturing one. But the government wanted it with .50 cal. rather than .303 cal. The result was a fiasco that resulted in Symington giving the factory to the government and refusing to do war work and a Truman Committee investigation. Once he was able to get clear of the stupid government infatuation with the foreign, he was able to make some jolly good gun turrets.
    Another example is the government wanting the AAF to adopt the Spitfire and have it manufactured in the US. Brig. Gen. Ben Kelsey, chief of the Army's Fighter Project Branch at the time, successfully defeated that, with a damning indictment of just about every aspect of that airplane.
    Unfortunately he was not able to prevent the production of the mechanically supercharged Merlin engine by Packard and it's adoption in the P-51, which he thought was a major mistake, the exhaust-gas-driven turbo-supercharged Allison being by far the better choice.
    As far as ballistic rockets and all of that, the Navy developed plans to orbit weather and photo recon satellites in 1944. They would make one orbit, flying over Japan, snap pictures, and return to earth via parachute. No Nazi scientists were involved.
    I read an article, it may have been an excerpt from a book, by a man who worked on the Jupiter C project, in which he wrote that the inclusion of the German scientists just delayed things and caused resentment and friction because people who had been working various engineering projects for years, had a lot of success, and were in senior positions and expected to run the show were told, no, you take orders from these Heil Hitler boys. Some of the Jewish guys, especially, were a little peeved.
  33. @Twinkie
    To be fair to the Japanese immigrants to the U.S. and their children born here (unlike the Imperialist Japanese of that era), they did give us this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/442nd_Infantry_Regiment_(United_States)

    The 442nd Regimental Combat Team is an infantry regiment of the United States Army, part of the Army Reserve. The regiment was a fighting unit composed almost entirely of American soldiers of Japanese ancestry who fought in World War II. Most of the families of mainland Japanese Americans were confined to internment camps in the United States interior. Beginning in 1944, the regiment fought primarily in Europe during World War II,[2] in particular Italy, southern France, and Germany.

    The 442nd Regiment was the most decorated unit for its size and length of service in the history of American warfare.[3] The 4,000 men who initially made up the unit in April 1943 had to be replaced nearly 2.5 times. In total, about 14,000 men served, earning 9,486 Purple Hearts. The unit was awarded eight Presidential Unit Citations (five earned in one month).[4]:201 Twenty-one of its members were awarded Medals of Honor.[2] Its motto was "Go for Broke".
     

    The use by western European nations and the United States, of Asian, African, and Arab troops against our German and Italian cousins is one of the major tragedies of World Wars I and II.

    Read More
  34. @Twinkie
    To be fair to the Japanese immigrants to the U.S. and their children born here (unlike the Imperialist Japanese of that era), they did give us this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/442nd_Infantry_Regiment_(United_States)

    The 442nd Regimental Combat Team is an infantry regiment of the United States Army, part of the Army Reserve. The regiment was a fighting unit composed almost entirely of American soldiers of Japanese ancestry who fought in World War II. Most of the families of mainland Japanese Americans were confined to internment camps in the United States interior. Beginning in 1944, the regiment fought primarily in Europe during World War II,[2] in particular Italy, southern France, and Germany.

    The 442nd Regiment was the most decorated unit for its size and length of service in the history of American warfare.[3] The 4,000 men who initially made up the unit in April 1943 had to be replaced nearly 2.5 times. In total, about 14,000 men served, earning 9,486 Purple Hearts. The unit was awarded eight Presidential Unit Citations (five earned in one month).[4]:201 Twenty-one of its members were awarded Medals of Honor.[2] Its motto was "Go for Broke".
     

    Twinkle:

    Is this story of Japanese American valor too good to be true? Not so. I once worked with an accountant who served in WW II. He told me that many of the Nisei servicemen he encountered seemed to be bandaged up after battle. He told me that they were out to prove something. Very remarkable and very moving.

    On a contrary note. Roger D. McGrath has pointed that indigenous Japanese supported Imperial Japan in conquered territories. Perhaps Nisei were the exception to the rule. If so, they were a very remarkable exception!

    Read More
  35. anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    By the way, that wikipedia article on Robert Goddard has this little side-box:

    “Don’t you know about your own rocket pioneer? Dr. Goddard was ahead of us all.”

    Wernher von Braun, when asked about his work, following World War II.

    The article cites this as the source of the quote:

    “A SALUTE TO LONG NEGLECTED ‘FATHER OF AMERICAN ROCKETRY”, John Noble Wilford, NY Times, October 5, 1982:

    “…Besides the liquid-fuel rocket, Dr. Goddard’s innovations included engine-cooling systems, gyroscopic steering for rockets, power-driven fuel pumps and other devices essential for rocket flight. As his rockets grew bigger and the launchings more frequent, he was forced to abandon the Massachusetts farm in the 1930′s for a ranch near Roswell, N.M.

    Although he held more than 200 patents in rocket technology, Dr. Goddard received little recognition during his lifetime. At the end of World War II, when Dr. von Braun was asked about his work, he replied: ”Don’t you know about your own rocket pioneer? Dr. Goddard was ahead of us all.”

    The wikipedia article also has this interesting note:

    “…Though not by plan, Goddard’s work on liquid-fueled rockets nevertheless played a part in bringing World War II to an earlier end. The Germans had been watching Goddard’s progress before the war and became convinced that large, liquid fuel rockets were feasible. General Dornberger, head of the V-2 project, used the idea that they were in a race with the U.S. and that Goddard had “disappeared” (to work with the Navy) to persuade Hitler to raise the priority of the V-2. It was a strategic mistake, however, to expend an estimated one-half billion war-era-dollars (not counting slave labor) for a terror weapon that did not create the fear desired and lacked the accuracy to be very effective against military targets. Resources could have been better used on existing, or new more effective, weapons…”

    Ah, those poor d9*&%off Americans! They are all standing out in the corn fields staring at the sky with their mouths open waiting for an immigrant expert to come tell them what they need to do! So simple! We’re just thinking of the poor ignorant Americans! After all, we don’t want them or their children to drown when it rains!

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  36. I’ve never quite undestood why people get upset when nations restrict immigration from their own nations. If tomorrow China proposed the “White Foreign Devils Complete and Permanent Immigration Ban,” my inclination would be to think that they’re probably on to something.

    Read More
    • Replies: @IAmCorn
    I agree. If a country banned American immigration or expatriation to that country I might be offended, just might. But I wouldn't want to suicide bomb the place. My reaction would be, "Not going there, don't want to go there. Even if I got in it's not very hospitable turf."
  37. @JohnnyD
    Daniel Greenfield has called this the "Let us in or we'll kill you" argument.
    http://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/265649/if-we-dont-let-muslims-america-theyll-kill-us-daniel-greenfield

    I refer to it as the “Heeeeere’s Johnny” argument for Muslim immigration.

    Yeah, I never quite understood why this argument is made. Japan does not allow Muslim immigration and yet it has not been the victim of Muslim terrorism. I am not allowed to migrate to Saudi Arabia or North Korea, but I am not plotting to kill the citizens of either of those countries. Even thinking of how this could be justified disgusts me deeply.

    The weirdest aspect is that this argument is made by Muslim supporters and security experts unironically. I don’t get it.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Pericles
    As it happens, I recently saw that two Turks claiming asylum in Tokyo had robbed and raped a Japanese woman.

    Ah, here is the link. Note that the ads may be unsuitable for the workplace.

    http://www.tokyoreporter.com/2016/02/22/tokyo-cops-arrest-turkish-asylum-seekers-in-gang-rape-of-woman/
    , @JohnnyD
    ,
    Our elites, including most of our "security experts," believe in what Steve has called, "invade the world/invite the world!" Bombing the Middle East and North Africa and bringing in their angry refugees somehow makes us safer. Hillary's the face (and the shrill voice) of this stupid policy, which is probably why she lost.
  38. @anonymous
    "Apparently the immigration restrictions in the ’24 act didn’t apply to Nazi rocket scientists or else there would be no moon picture."

    Von Braun likely wouldn't have claimed that. Perhaps it would have taken another half decade. But maybe not. Within a few years of getting started the US aviation industry was surpassing the Germans, particularly as they began to apply computers to aerospace problems. Heck, the original rocket work that inspired Von Braun was by the American pioneer, Robert Goddard, it's not like rockets were some magic German pixie dust. It was not like the US didn't have a larger and more successful aviation industry than Germany by that time, an industry that also had considerable experience in rocketry by the end of the war, jato and all that. As to bettering Von Braun's Germans:


    "...the first-stage rocket engine for the Navaho began with two refurbished V-2 engines in 1947. That same year, the phase II engine was designed, the XLR-41-NA-1, a simplified version of the V-2 engine made from American parts. The phase III engine, XLR-43-NA-... adopted a cylindrical combustion chamber with the experimental German impinging-stream injector plate. Engineers at North American were able to solve the combustion stability problem, which had prevented it being used in the V-2, and the engine was successfully tested at full power in 1951. The Phase IV engine, XLR-43-NA-3 (120K), replaced the poorly cooled heavy German engine wall with a brazed tubular ("spaghetti") construction, which was becoming the new standard..."

     

    Then there's this--:


    "...in 1963, von Braun, reflecting on the history of rocketry, said of Goddard: "His rockets ... may have been rather crude by present-day standards, but they blazed the trail and incorporated many features used in our most modern rockets and space vehicles". He once recalled that "Goddard's experiments in liquid fuel saved us years of work, and enabled us to perfect the V-2 years before it would have been possible."

     

    So sounds like if it hadn't been for Americans, the Germans may have never gotten to London? This is all silly.

    Who had a better 1945? The Germans with their rockets, cruise missiles, and jets? Or the Americans with their old fashioned piston-powered strategic bombers and long range fighters?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Olorin
    The central banks with their move to floating exchange rates/capital mobility.

    History of Foreign Exchange Rates (NYU Stern School of Business)
    pages.stern.nyu.edu/~llitov/teaching/Session2.ppt
    , @Anonymous Nephew
    I remember being very impressed with the German fortifications on Jersey, in the Channel Islands - technically advanced, yet strategically useless as the British just went straight for the French coast.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_Lothringen

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coastal_fortifications_of_Jersey#World_War_II_coastal_fortifications
    , @Jack D
    You could say that the Americans won despite and not because of their technological lag. We certainly wasted no time adopting the German's inventions as soon as the war was over.

    Who had a better time in Vietnam - the Americans with their jets or the N. Vietnamese with their punji traps? Technology doesn't always win the war. In the case of the Germans, the problem was that the US had a huge pre-war consumer economy - we invented mass production. Once all those car factories were converted to making tanks and planes (and nothing impeded the conversion) , their goose was cooked. One for one, the German stuff was better most of the time, but it wasn't one for one, it was 5 or 10 for 1.
    , @Whoever
    A lot of our technology was not headline-grabbing, gee-whiz stuff, but was very useful for getting the job done -- the K-14 gunsight, for example, which provided the range to the target and the correct lead to take.
    At the 1944 Joint Fighter Conference at NAS Patuxent River in 1944, it was concluded that this sight didn't improve the accuracy of expert shooters, but it did bring "people in the lower and middle brackets up as much as five or six times better than they had shot before."
    A lot of our effort was put into making the average or below-average performer better through technology, thus tail-warning radar to help the pilot whose situational awareness was not quite what it should be, IFF to help avoid misidentification of targets, hydraulically-assisted ailerons, dive brakes, g-suits, etc.
    As a participant at the Patuxent Conference said, "I think we in the aircraft game should be worrying about the people in the middle third or bottom half. We have to make better sights, better cockpit arrangements, easier planes to fly for those people. We don't have to worry about our top shot or our best pilot. He can get along with any rig."
    That seems to be the opposite of the way things were in the Luftwaffe, which quickly became divided into experten and targets.
  39. Steve,

    It wasn’t who was better, it was who had more (quality versus quantity). This was exemplified with the notoriously weak Sherman Tank which nevertheless was sent into battle to overwhelm superior German tanks.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Twinkie

    This was exemplified with the notoriously weak Sherman Tank which nevertheless was sent into battle to overwhelm superior German tanks.
     
    While the Sherman was more thinly armored and gunned than the heavier German Panthers and Tigers, it was far more mobile and, more importantly, was much more reliable.

    The heavier German tanks were notoriously complicated and unreliable. They broke down often, were difficult to transport, and (in the case of the Tiger) had serious problems dealing with difficult terrain and bridges.

    But you are correct that there were many more Shermans deployed than the heavier German tanks.
    , @Captain Tripps
    While both sides in WWII had comparative advantages in individual weapon systems, the bottom line is:

    1940 population comparison:
    Germany: 69,838,000
    Russia (Soviet Union): 196,716,000
    United States: 132,164,569

    Lesson: don't pick a fight with two near-peer countries who, combined, outnumber you 4 to 1. Or, to crib Napoleon, or Stalin, or Mao, or whomever, "quantity has a quality all its own".

    Corollary lesson: German martial spirit and engineering superiority can get you far, but never far enough.
  40. Anon says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    White folks got vision, will to learn, and will to work.

    They think, “Let’s invent a great new way, learn new things, and work hard at it.”

    So, the created the modern world.

    Yellow folks got the will to learn and will to work.

    They think, “Let’s learn from success and work hard at it.”

    So, they imitated the modern world.

    Brown folks got the will to work.

    They think, “Let’s go to success for employment and work hard at it.”

    So, they head off to the modern world.

    Black folks got nothing but the will to bitch.

    They think, “Why whitey got that, why yellow got that, why brown got that? Shoo, gibs me some!”

    So, they destroy the modern world.

    Read More
  41. Anon says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    Why did 9/11 happen?

    Because we didn’t allow immigration from the Muslim world.

    … Wait a minute.

    Read More
  42. Anon says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    Why did Civil War happen?

    Because we didn’t bring blacks from Africa.

    … Wait a minute.

    Read More
  43. Anon says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    Why did the Mexican-American War happen?

    Because Mexico didn’t allow gringos into SW territories.

    … Wait a minute.

    Read More
  44. Anon says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    Why did WWI happen?

    Because the US didn’t allow Germans and Brits into the US.

    … Wait a minute.

    Read More
  45. @Anonymous
    The people in charge now don't hate us. Trumpening is a new era. Illegals are going to be leaving en masse. Congress now talking about halving legal immigration.

    Most of the people in charge do hate us, it is an overwhelming number if you include the entire power structure.

    The only people who are trying to defend us are Trump, a tiny cadre of advisors, and a handful of lawmakers.

    Read More
  46. @Anon
    Oddly enough, Japanese immigration to the US has been pretty low since end of WWII, even after 1965 immigration act.

    So, what does that tell ya? Its' best for people to stay home and build their own economies. The best of Japan stayed in Japan and built all those nice corporations.

    So, Japan grew. Suppose they'd all decided to come to the US.

    Exactly. And they sold us an ess-load of cars since then, too.

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  47. @Steve Sailer
    Who had a better 1945? The Germans with their rockets, cruise missiles, and jets? Or the Americans with their old fashioned piston-powered strategic bombers and long range fighters?

    The central banks with their move to floating exchange rates/capital mobility.

    History of Foreign Exchange Rates (NYU Stern School of Business)
    pages.stern.nyu.edu/~llitov/teaching/Session2.ppt

    Read More
  48. @Hapalong Cassidy
    Just to play Devil's Advocate, I do see a plausible argument that a more open immigration policy can reduce the enthusiasm for military adventurism among a nation's citizens. It's more difficult to dehumanize an opposing country when many of your own citizens originally came from there. For example, it's safe to say that during WW2 the Japanese were far more hated than the Germans. Obviously there's the racial angle, but Americans were also far more familiar with German culture due to the large number of German-descended citizens. And when it came to the Japanese, as far as Americans were concerned, Pearl Harbor may have just as well been bombed by aliens from outer space.

    There was a fair amount of animosity directed against Germans in the U.S. in World War I. In World War II, not so much.

    Read More
    • Replies: @jacques sheete

    There was a fair amount of animosity directed against Germans in the U.S. in World War I. In World War II, not so much.
     
    True. Also, it's pretty shocking how much animosity was generated by both Brit and American propaganda much of which persists, unchanged, to this day. Thousands of so called "intellectuals" joined the anti-German braying of the press and promoted a lust for war.
  49. @Dan Hayes
    Steve,

    It wasn't who was better, it was who had more (quality versus quantity). This was exemplified with the notoriously weak Sherman Tank which nevertheless was sent into battle to overwhelm superior German tanks.

    This was exemplified with the notoriously weak Sherman Tank which nevertheless was sent into battle to overwhelm superior German tanks.

    While the Sherman was more thinly armored and gunned than the heavier German Panthers and Tigers, it was far more mobile and, more importantly, was much more reliable.

    The heavier German tanks were notoriously complicated and unreliable. They broke down often, were difficult to transport, and (in the case of the Tiger) had serious problems dealing with difficult terrain and bridges.

    But you are correct that there were many more Shermans deployed than the heavier German tanks.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Busby
    1. The original doctrine was for tank destroyer units to fight tanks. Tank units were equipped for exploitation and pursuit operations. This proved to be a doctrinal dead end.
    2. The original M3 and M4 were under gunned because the Ordnance Corps (there was no armor branch) met the technical requirement for a dual purpose 75mm gun by supplying the battle proven and in production M2/M3, shared with field artillery batteries.
    3. US medium tanks had power traverse.
    4. It has been argued, with good effect, that German tanks were crafted and American tanks were produced.
    , @AP

    The heavier German tanks were notoriously complicated and unreliable
     
    A friend who worked as an engineer in the auto industry had the same impression of German luxury cars.
  50. @Clifford Brown
    I refer to it as the "Heeeeere's Johnny" argument for Muslim immigration.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDpipB4yehk


    Yeah, I never quite understood why this argument is made. Japan does not allow Muslim immigration and yet it has not been the victim of Muslim terrorism. I am not allowed to migrate to Saudi Arabia or North Korea, but I am not plotting to kill the citizens of either of those countries. Even thinking of how this could be justified disgusts me deeply.

    The weirdest aspect is that this argument is made by Muslim supporters and security experts unironically. I don't get it.

    As it happens, I recently saw that two Turks claiming asylum in Tokyo had robbed and raped a Japanese woman.

    Ah, here is the link. Note that the ads may be unsuitable for the workplace.

    http://www.tokyoreporter.com/2016/02/22/tokyo-cops-arrest-turkish-asylum-seekers-in-gang-rape-of-woman/

    Read More
  51. @anon
    Talk about cherry-picking facts to support an unsupportable argument.
    One example is Atkinson's claim of immigration restriction causing the attack on Pearl Harbor, editing out Japan's primitive, savage actions against China and other countries, that had a direct affect on the attitude of this country at the time, as well as their pronounced resistance of assimilating into American culture. Most Japanese, before the war, sent their children abroad to Japanese Universities prior to the war, because they believed they were superior. Japanese were about as racist as your average KKK member. Race pride was certainly a significant factor in the Japanese psyche.

    The well documented consumption of Australian prisoners and others during the war gives us a clue of the culture we were actively restricting. American's have never taken a shine to cannibalism, have never apologized for their prejudice against it, and hopefully never will.

    Eating prisoner's of war is just not the American way. Using rifle butts to play Whack-a-Mole with Chinese babies, and murdering and raping entire towns is also on our no-no list.

    To put in easy-to-understand perspective, even the Nazi's were appalled by Japanese primitive savagery. Some members famously attempted to arrest the Japanese animalistic carnage across China years before we entered the War.

    Speak to any "greatest generation" individual still alive, who saw action in the Pacific theatre during the war, and the majority hate Japanese guts to this day. I think it's fair to say this reflects poorly on Japanese soldier's behavior during the war, and the "rumor" that they fought like bloodthirsty animals might carry a bit of truth. The German's, as tough and brutal as they were, created far less rancor in the minds of American soldiers after the war, for pretty good reason.

    It's a perverse sort of bigotry for Atkinson to imply, through glaring omission, that the Japanese shouldn't be judged by modern standards because they were just primitive little yellow devils who didn't know any better at the time. Don't slaughter and eat Australian soldiers? Death marches aren't considered "cricket"? Who knew?

    David Atkinson is an inauthentic, anti-intellectual asshole. I hope I never get as cynical about people in general, or Japanese in particular as that lying piece of such and such.

    In the 50s and 60s there were two best-selling books on war crimes by Lord Russell of Liverpool, a member of the legal teams at Nuremberg.

    The Scourge Of The Swastika, on German war crimes, is still in print.

    The Knights Of Bushido, on Japanese war crimes, is out of print.

    And when former British servicemen protested against the Japanese Emperor on his 1998 visit, there was no shortage of young Guardianistas to tell them not to be racist, and that it was wrong to cling onto the past.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/101125.stm

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    • Replies: @Anon
    hard to fathom that the Bush dynasty was so close to ending with a fat Japanese burp:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/japan/1445167/George-Bushs-comrades-eaten-by-their-Japanese-PoW-guards.html

    Apparently, the Japanese thoroughly enjoyed Indian cuisine:

    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Japanese-ate-Indian-PoWs-used-them-as-live-targets-in-WWII/articleshow/40017577.cms

    Frankly, I was expecting an insightful review of the movie, "Japanese Devils," on this website by now. In it, Japanese culinary delights after a long day of primitive bloodlust are explored, and perhaps gives the casual viewer a notion of why they were interred in concentration camps, American citizens or no, during our worlds greatest existential conflict:

    http://www.sfgate.com/opinion/article/WAR-Japanese-soldiers-finally-tell-their-story-2864183.php

    I don't mean to be demanding, but I'm very disappointed this movie has yet to receive an isteve review! I will say that after a casual perusal of stories available on the net by an unprejudiced reader, the reason Japan still has no significant standing army becomes apparent, and reassuring.

  52. anon says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    Hate to say it, but one result was the ‘great migration’ of blacks out of the Deep South into industrial Cities in the North.

    Thing is, it wasn’t working out that badly until the opened the gate once again to immigrants. There is a rather good book talking about how the first generation did quite well but subsequent generations tended to regress in the social disorder surrounding the migrants who came from rural/sharecropping backgrounds.

    https://www.amazon.com/Promised-Land-Migration-Changed-America/dp/0679733477

    Personally, I think rap was the end of the the initial post civil rights improvements. More specifically, TRAP style gangsta and the associated personal style. But people can pick their cause. Projects, crack, &c. Lehman does make a strong argument that the huge demand for unskilled labor during the War and post war period showed positive effects.

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  53. @Steve Sailer
    Who had a better 1945? The Germans with their rockets, cruise missiles, and jets? Or the Americans with their old fashioned piston-powered strategic bombers and long range fighters?

    I remember being very impressed with the German fortifications on Jersey, in the Channel Islands – technically advanced, yet strategically useless as the British just went straight for the French coast.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_Lothringen

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coastal_fortifications_of_Jersey#World_War_II_coastal_fortifications

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  54. @celt darnell
    Well, if you some Ghanaian or Zulu rocket scientists to spare...

    The US intelligence services sneaked the Nazi rocket scientists into the country after WWII. Then, the rocket scientists were directed to maintain a low profile as they worked on military ballistic missiles and eventually the moon shot. The low profile apparently succeeded since the latest historical narrative is that was Afro-American women who took us to the moon.

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  55. @Diversity Heretic
    There was a fair amount of animosity directed against Germans in the U.S. in World War I. In World War II, not so much.

    There was a fair amount of animosity directed against Germans in the U.S. in World War I. In World War II, not so much.

    True. Also, it’s pretty shocking how much animosity was generated by both Brit and American propaganda much of which persists, unchanged, to this day. Thousands of so called “intellectuals” joined the anti-German braying of the press and promoted a lust for war.

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  56. @Twinkie

    This was exemplified with the notoriously weak Sherman Tank which nevertheless was sent into battle to overwhelm superior German tanks.
     
    While the Sherman was more thinly armored and gunned than the heavier German Panthers and Tigers, it was far more mobile and, more importantly, was much more reliable.

    The heavier German tanks were notoriously complicated and unreliable. They broke down often, were difficult to transport, and (in the case of the Tiger) had serious problems dealing with difficult terrain and bridges.

    But you are correct that there were many more Shermans deployed than the heavier German tanks.

    1. The original doctrine was for tank destroyer units to fight tanks. Tank units were equipped for exploitation and pursuit operations. This proved to be a doctrinal dead end.
    2. The original M3 and M4 were under gunned because the Ordnance Corps (there was no armor branch) met the technical requirement for a dual purpose 75mm gun by supplying the battle proven and in production M2/M3, shared with field artillery batteries.
    3. US medium tanks had power traverse.
    4. It has been argued, with good effect, that German tanks were crafted and American tanks were produced.

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    • Replies: @Diversity Heretic
    Good observations. I would add only that the M4 Sherman could be readily "up-gunned" with the British 17-pounder (76mm) cannon, which made it a reasonably effective tank destroyer. I've also read that it was easy to put on a ship, an important consideration for a tank produced in North America but which would fight in Europe and the Pacific. The M10 tank destroyer was, on the whole, a disappointment.
  57. The chutzpah of hypernationalist Japan asking us to open our borders, even Israel doesn’t do that.

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  58. @Dan Hayes
    Steve,

    It wasn't who was better, it was who had more (quality versus quantity). This was exemplified with the notoriously weak Sherman Tank which nevertheless was sent into battle to overwhelm superior German tanks.

    While both sides in WWII had comparative advantages in individual weapon systems, the bottom line is:

    1940 population comparison:
    Germany: 69,838,000
    Russia (Soviet Union): 196,716,000
    United States: 132,164,569

    Lesson: don’t pick a fight with two near-peer countries who, combined, outnumber you 4 to 1. Or, to crib Napoleon, or Stalin, or Mao, or whomever, “quantity has a quality all its own”.

    Corollary lesson: German martial spirit and engineering superiority can get you far, but never far enough.

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    • Agree: Dan Hayes
    • Replies: @Jim Don Bob
    It is unlikely the USA would have gone to war with Germany when it did except for Hitler's decision to declare war first on December 11, 1941 for no apparent good reason.
  59. Steve Sailer, how exactly is the restriction of immigration in the early 20th century related to America putting a man on the Moon? There is literally no logical correlation between the two things. In fact, a lot of the scientists who worked on the Apollo Program were German *immigrants* like Werner Von Braun.

    Your point is an epic fail.

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  60. @Diversity Heretic
    I've never quite undestood why people get upset when nations restrict immigration from their own nations. If tomorrow China proposed the "White Foreign Devils Complete and Permanent Immigration Ban," my inclination would be to think that they're probably on to something.

    I agree. If a country banned American immigration or expatriation to that country I might be offended, just might. But I wouldn’t want to suicide bomb the place. My reaction would be, “Not going there, don’t want to go there. Even if I got in it’s not very hospitable turf.”

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  61. @anon
    Talk about cherry-picking facts to support an unsupportable argument.
    One example is Atkinson's claim of immigration restriction causing the attack on Pearl Harbor, editing out Japan's primitive, savage actions against China and other countries, that had a direct affect on the attitude of this country at the time, as well as their pronounced resistance of assimilating into American culture. Most Japanese, before the war, sent their children abroad to Japanese Universities prior to the war, because they believed they were superior. Japanese were about as racist as your average KKK member. Race pride was certainly a significant factor in the Japanese psyche.

    The well documented consumption of Australian prisoners and others during the war gives us a clue of the culture we were actively restricting. American's have never taken a shine to cannibalism, have never apologized for their prejudice against it, and hopefully never will.

    Eating prisoner's of war is just not the American way. Using rifle butts to play Whack-a-Mole with Chinese babies, and murdering and raping entire towns is also on our no-no list.

    To put in easy-to-understand perspective, even the Nazi's were appalled by Japanese primitive savagery. Some members famously attempted to arrest the Japanese animalistic carnage across China years before we entered the War.

    Speak to any "greatest generation" individual still alive, who saw action in the Pacific theatre during the war, and the majority hate Japanese guts to this day. I think it's fair to say this reflects poorly on Japanese soldier's behavior during the war, and the "rumor" that they fought like bloodthirsty animals might carry a bit of truth. The German's, as tough and brutal as they were, created far less rancor in the minds of American soldiers after the war, for pretty good reason.

    It's a perverse sort of bigotry for Atkinson to imply, through glaring omission, that the Japanese shouldn't be judged by modern standards because they were just primitive little yellow devils who didn't know any better at the time. Don't slaughter and eat Australian soldiers? Death marches aren't considered "cricket"? Who knew?

    David Atkinson is an inauthentic, anti-intellectual asshole. I hope I never get as cynical about people in general, or Japanese in particular as that lying piece of such and such.

    Spot on! Read E B Sledge, or Robert Leckie, or William Manchester for further details.

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  62. Anon says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @Anonymous Nephew
    In the 50s and 60s there were two best-selling books on war crimes by Lord Russell of Liverpool, a member of the legal teams at Nuremberg.

    The Scourge Of The Swastika, on German war crimes, is still in print.

    The Knights Of Bushido, on Japanese war crimes, is out of print.

    And when former British servicemen protested against the Japanese Emperor on his 1998 visit, there was no shortage of young Guardianistas to tell them not to be racist, and that it was wrong to cling onto the past.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/101125.stm

    hard to fathom that the Bush dynasty was so close to ending with a fat Japanese burp:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/japan/1445167/George-Bushs-comrades-eaten-by-their-Japanese-PoW-guards.html

    Apparently, the Japanese thoroughly enjoyed Indian cuisine:

    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Japanese-ate-Indian-PoWs-used-them-as-live-targets-in-WWII/articleshow/40017577.cms

    Frankly, I was expecting an insightful review of the movie, “Japanese Devils,” on this website by now. In it, Japanese culinary delights after a long day of primitive bloodlust are explored, and perhaps gives the casual viewer a notion of why they were interred in concentration camps, American citizens or no, during our worlds greatest existential conflict:

    http://www.sfgate.com/opinion/article/WAR-Japanese-soldiers-finally-tell-their-story-2864183.php

    I don’t mean to be demanding, but I’m very disappointed this movie has yet to receive an isteve review! I will say that after a casual perusal of stories available on the net by an unprejudiced reader, the reason Japan still has no significant standing army becomes apparent, and reassuring.

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  63. @SPMoore8
    The argument about restricting Japanese (or East Asian) immigration as being something that led to war is silly, as is the parallel argument that we cannot restrict MENA immigration because it will make Muslim terrorists mad.

    However, the article is actually pretty good because by referring to the Harding XO and the Coolidge law, which restricted (but did not completely shut down) immigration from Poland, Greece, Italy, Yugoslavia, as well as Jews, was actually pretty effective because there are a lot of assimilated white Americans with ancestry from those countries. However, at minimum, there was actually some tradition of persons of those nationalities being involved in what we would now call "terrorist" activities, going back to the assassination of McKinley and even earlier. (I think Sacco and Vanzetti happened the year before Coolidge's signing.)

    Something that always struck me as odd is that the 1921 Order ( in terms of "national origins") was keyed to the 1910 census, but the 1924 Law was keyed to the 1890 census, even though that very same census (notoriously, for anyone who has ever done family history) was destroyed by fire in 1921. That seems a little weird to me.

    “The argument about restricting Japanese (or East Asian) immigration as being something that led to war is silly.”

    When Japan defeated Russia in 1905, it established Japan as a geopolitical rival to the United States in the Pacific. This increased awareness of Japanese power in the United States led in part to increased agitation against the menacing Japanese presence. President Theodore Roosevelt, however, urged caution to prevent directly insulting the Japanese government.

    Regarding this Japanese presence, The United North American Japanese Association in the 1920′s had produced a very detailed census of the American Japanese population from a regional perspective, refuting the charges made against the Japanese that they were reproducing at an alarming rate. In responding to accusations of unfair farming practices, it reported, “According to these facts it seems to me that the Japanese farmer is more intensive in dairy farming than the other people engaged in the same business. The amount of milk produced per acre and the number of cows per acre on the farms operated by the Japanese is larger than that produced by others. In other words, there is less waste and the farming itself is conducted on a more intensive basis.”

    When James Sakamoto was asked about his duty to military service for America in the 1920′s, he indicated “I will go it”, remaining true to his sentiment twenty-years later as he became part of those Japanese males who volunteered and swore to “uncover any saboteurs.”

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    • Replies: @Spmoore8
    I think the treatment and mistreatment of East Asians in the United States deserves some fair and non-hysterical treatment.
  64. @Millennial
    No joke, in middle school, high school, and college I was taught that the Japanese did indeed attack Pearl Harbor because of western racism.

    Japanese atrocities in China and elsewhere were blamed on European intellectual or cultural influence (usually Christianity or Prussian militarism).

    I remember one Chinese female professor who was absolutely convinced that the Katana-wielding Japanese soldiers rampaging through Nanking were, to a man, motivated by Darwinism.

    I used to teach an online AP US History class. The World War II Pacific Theater unit (the course was prewritten for me- I could, however make some changes. ) It was basically Japanese internment and the horror of the A-bomb. I let the student know of my objections in the discussion threads.

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    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    I read my son's AP US History textbook from cover to cover about 10 years ago. No military history to speak of, especially no battles: no tactics at Gettysburg, no Midway, nothing that would interest a teenage boy. But lots about Rosie the Riveter.
  65. @Corvinus
    "The argument about restricting Japanese (or East Asian) immigration as being something that led to war is silly."

    When Japan defeated Russia in 1905, it established Japan as a geopolitical rival to the United States in the Pacific. This increased awareness of Japanese power in the United States led in part to increased agitation against the menacing Japanese presence. President Theodore Roosevelt, however, urged caution to prevent directly insulting the Japanese government.

    Regarding this Japanese presence, The United North American Japanese Association in the 1920's had produced a very detailed census of the American Japanese population from a regional perspective, refuting the charges made against the Japanese that they were reproducing at an alarming rate. In responding to accusations of unfair farming practices, it reported, “According to these facts it seems to me that the Japanese farmer is more intensive in dairy farming than the other people engaged in the same business. The amount of milk produced per acre and the number of cows per acre on the farms operated by the Japanese is larger than that produced by others. In other words, there is less waste and the farming itself is conducted on a more intensive basis.”

    When James Sakamoto was asked about his duty to military service for America in the 1920's, he indicated "I will go it", remaining true to his sentiment twenty-years later as he became part of those Japanese males who volunteered and swore to "uncover any saboteurs.”

    I think the treatment and mistreatment of East Asians in the United States deserves some fair and non-hysterical treatment.

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  66. @guest
    Immigration policy had zero to do with Pearl Harbor. The U.S. wanting to preserve the Far East Euro-American empire in the face of Japanese expansionism did. Unless Japan conquered China out of spite for not being able to send its wretched refuse over here. Which it didn't.

    They did so partly to preempt the Soviet Union, among other things, but you won't read about that much in our terminally superficial MSM. Nor will you hear much about the FDR administration goading Japan into war, except as part of the politically acceptable we were terrible racists narrative.

    And who can forget how Roosevelt goaded the Japanese into raping and sodomising ten-year-old Chinese girls, cannibalising Australians, etc. Why, it’s a wonder the long suffering, put-upon Japanese exercised as much restraint as they did for so long, and even then reacted in such measured ways, what with the nasty Americans maintaining coaling stations in Guam and such: the horror!

    When I was in knee-pants, my father told many a tale of how, when the magnanimous Japanese liberated the Philippines from the nasty American imperialists, the newly-independent nation had dancing in the streets for days. Yet mendacious Western propaganda would have you believe the U.S.A. was in the process of withdrawing from the Philippines sua sponte, and only remained at the natives’ urging to defend against an imminent Japanese invasion. The propaganda even goes so far as to suggest the Americans did in fact leave the Philippines to govern themselves shortly after the Second World War ended.

    Even the natives were brainwashed, erecting and maintaining reverently to this very day monumental statues of Douglas MacArthur in gratitude. Real Stockholm syndrome stuff, huh?

    I leave as an exercise to the reader to ask any elderly Filipino or Micronesian to assess the relative merits of Japanese and Americans during the 1940s.

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    • Replies: @JACK d
    This is how little they think of MacArthur - they didn't want to waste any dry land on his memorial or built a nice pedestal. Instead they put it directly on the ground below the high tide line on a beach:

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e6/MacArthur_Landing_Site.JPG
  67. @Autochthon

    Yeah, if we had not dropped the bomb, we would have, instead, done something even more grotesquely immoral. Therefore, dropping the bomb was a good thing.

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    • Replies: @Autochthon
    I'll bite. Complete your Mad Lib for me:

    Instead of immorally defeating the Japanese with minimal loss of life, the U.S.A. should have ___________.
  68. @Marcus
    The chutzpah of hypernationalist Japan asking us to open our borders, even Israel doesn't do that.

    even Israel doesn’t do that

    Netanyahu condemns Trump’s Muslim ban

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  69. @Clifford Brown
    I refer to it as the "Heeeeere's Johnny" argument for Muslim immigration.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDpipB4yehk


    Yeah, I never quite understood why this argument is made. Japan does not allow Muslim immigration and yet it has not been the victim of Muslim terrorism. I am not allowed to migrate to Saudi Arabia or North Korea, but I am not plotting to kill the citizens of either of those countries. Even thinking of how this could be justified disgusts me deeply.

    The weirdest aspect is that this argument is made by Muslim supporters and security experts unironically. I don't get it.

    ,
    Our elites, including most of our “security experts,” believe in what Steve has called, “invade the world/invite the world!” Bombing the Middle East and North Africa and bringing in their angry refugees somehow makes us safer. Hillary’s the face (and the shrill voice) of this stupid policy, which is probably why she lost.

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  70. @Busby
    1. The original doctrine was for tank destroyer units to fight tanks. Tank units were equipped for exploitation and pursuit operations. This proved to be a doctrinal dead end.
    2. The original M3 and M4 were under gunned because the Ordnance Corps (there was no armor branch) met the technical requirement for a dual purpose 75mm gun by supplying the battle proven and in production M2/M3, shared with field artillery batteries.
    3. US medium tanks had power traverse.
    4. It has been argued, with good effect, that German tanks were crafted and American tanks were produced.

    Good observations. I would add only that the M4 Sherman could be readily “up-gunned” with the British 17-pounder (76mm) cannon, which made it a reasonably effective tank destroyer. I’ve also read that it was easy to put on a ship, an important consideration for a tank produced in North America but which would fight in Europe and the Pacific. The M10 tank destroyer was, on the whole, a disappointment.

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  71. Oh, sorry, wrong picture of the fallout from restricting immigration in the 1920s.

    LOL! But Steve, there’s no reference in that picture to the black female math geniuses who “made it all happen.” You need a cartoon speech bubble coming from the astronaut that says, “You go, black girlfrien’! You CRUNCH dem numbers!”

    From the TIME article:

    Influenced by concerns about the racial “fitness” of Southern and Eastern Europeans, this legislation was also inspired by fears that so-called aliens would import poverty and disease, as well as hostile foreign ideas like anarchism, Bolshevism and Catholicism.

    This pretty much encapsulates the author’s intent. Keeping poverty, disease, anarchism and leftist ideology out of your country is as discriminatory and vile as racism. And you throw Catholicism in there in an attempt to enlist modern Catholics onto the bandwagon of victimhood.

    It’s true that eastern and southern European immigrants have probably been a benefit to the US, in the long run, despite some opposition by natives (and despite some eastern Europeans bringing Marxism with them.) It’s also true that there were many people opposed to Catholics coming into the country early on, but this was the inevitable conflict of cultures that always happens when masses of people collide. I would guess that the Angles and the Saxons had a similar period during their coalescing as a single people. Or maybe not. To presume, however, that Islam will coexist with Christianity in the US the same way that the Protestant and Catholic branches of Christianity have coexisted with each other represents an extreme fallacy of “linear logic” (as John Derbyshire puts it.) Same with Somalis and Tunisians vs. Poles, Greeks, Italians and Swedes.

    So mass immigration opponents of the early 20th century got a few things wrong. Misunderstandings and misinterpretations between groups of people are inevitable. They were mostly correct to be cautious, as immigration decisions are bridges that can’t be uncrossed. They were also correct to give the European immigrants who had come earlier (and their families) a chance to assimilate to American ways, rather than be lulled back into old ways by waves of recent immigrants. “Falsus in uno, falsus in omnibus” does not apply to early mass immigration opponents. And even less so does “veritas in uno, veritas in omnibus” apply to their modern adversaries.

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  72. @Steve Sailer
    Who had a better 1945? The Germans with their rockets, cruise missiles, and jets? Or the Americans with their old fashioned piston-powered strategic bombers and long range fighters?

    You could say that the Americans won despite and not because of their technological lag. We certainly wasted no time adopting the German’s inventions as soon as the war was over.

    Who had a better time in Vietnam – the Americans with their jets or the N. Vietnamese with their punji traps? Technology doesn’t always win the war. In the case of the Germans, the problem was that the US had a huge pre-war consumer economy – we invented mass production. Once all those car factories were converted to making tanks and planes (and nothing impeded the conversion) , their goose was cooked. One for one, the German stuff was better most of the time, but it wasn’t one for one, it was 5 or 10 for 1.

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    • Replies: @SPMoore8
    I don't know why these things can't be evaluated without a lot of nationalist chest thumping. The Germans (including a number of Germans Jews) were at the forefront of a lot of STEM inventions and developments for a century before the end of WW2, not only terms of things like rockets and jets but even such things as magnetic tape recording (not to mention chemical engineering, medicine, physics, mathematics, etc. etc.)

    We probably wouldn't have gotten to the Moon as fast as we did without the several hundred German scientists and engineers we brought here, and we probably wouldn't have started using magnetic tape recorders as quickly as we did if an American audio engineer hadn't found a couple of Magnetophone tape machines lying around in Germany after the war.
  73. @anonymous
    "Apparently the immigration restrictions in the ’24 act didn’t apply to Nazi rocket scientists or else there would be no moon picture."

    Von Braun likely wouldn't have claimed that. Perhaps it would have taken another half decade. But maybe not. Within a few years of getting started the US aviation industry was surpassing the Germans, particularly as they began to apply computers to aerospace problems. Heck, the original rocket work that inspired Von Braun was by the American pioneer, Robert Goddard, it's not like rockets were some magic German pixie dust. It was not like the US didn't have a larger and more successful aviation industry than Germany by that time, an industry that also had considerable experience in rocketry by the end of the war, jato and all that. As to bettering Von Braun's Germans:


    "...the first-stage rocket engine for the Navaho began with two refurbished V-2 engines in 1947. That same year, the phase II engine was designed, the XLR-41-NA-1, a simplified version of the V-2 engine made from American parts. The phase III engine, XLR-43-NA-... adopted a cylindrical combustion chamber with the experimental German impinging-stream injector plate. Engineers at North American were able to solve the combustion stability problem, which had prevented it being used in the V-2, and the engine was successfully tested at full power in 1951. The Phase IV engine, XLR-43-NA-3 (120K), replaced the poorly cooled heavy German engine wall with a brazed tubular ("spaghetti") construction, which was becoming the new standard..."

     

    Then there's this--:


    "...in 1963, von Braun, reflecting on the history of rocketry, said of Goddard: "His rockets ... may have been rather crude by present-day standards, but they blazed the trail and incorporated many features used in our most modern rockets and space vehicles". He once recalled that "Goddard's experiments in liquid fuel saved us years of work, and enabled us to perfect the V-2 years before it would have been possible."

     

    So sounds like if it hadn't been for Americans, the Germans may have never gotten to London? This is all silly.

    The Russians did the same thing with their Nazi rocket scientists. They downloaded all their knowledge and then after a few years when they were done with them they sent them home and ran an indigenous program (which was nicer than what we did – we kept all those Germans in Alabama). It’s like those things where you fire your IT Dept. and then force them to train their Indian replacements.

    Assuming the Russians had done this and we hadn’t then the Russians would have been say 5 years ahead of us. The moon is a lifeless rock with no value except propaganda value, so if the Russians had beaten us there (and it was pretty close) , we would never have gone, just as the Russians quit as soon as we beat them.

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    • Replies: @syonredux

    They downloaded all their knowledge and then after a few years when they were done with them they sent them home and ran an indigenous program (which was nicer than what we did – we kept all those Germans in Alabama).
     
    RE: Soviet use of German rocketry experts:

    In October 1946, the best German engineers who worked for the Soviet missile program were ordered on the trains and sent to the various locations in the USSR to assist in the organization of missile production and design. By the beginning of the 1947, Soviets completed the transfer of all works on rocket technology from Germany into secret locations in the USSR. In the fall of 1947, Soviet-German team launched eleven A-4 rockets near the village of Kapustin Yar in the steppes north of the Caspian Sea.
     

    Given a pathological obsession of the Soviet government with secrecy, it was a remarkable phenomenon that Joseph Stalin did allow hundreds of Soviet specialists, many of them recent GULAG inmates, travel to postwar Germany and work side by side with their German colleagues on the development of rocket technology. Inevitably, the whole endeavor had a temporary nature, aimed to train Soviet cadre in the industry that was virtually nonexistent in the USSR at the time. From the outset of the program, Soviet authorities had grave concerns about engaging thousands of Germans, who had relative freedom of movement, into the sensitive defense project.

    On May 7, 1946, Ivan Serov, the head of the Soviet security policy, NKVD, in Germany received a letter from A. G. Mrykin from the artillery directorate, GAU, complaining about overwhelming number of Germans involved in the Soviet rocket development effort. The document stressed that German specialists not only were gaining experience in the production of the current German technology, but also had direct access to the Soviet efforts to develop follow-on rocket systems. (170)

    Along with having their rocket program exposed to Western intelligence, the USSR was now restoring military-industrial potential of Germany, something the Soviet government was least interested to do. Not to mention, Soviet authorities were concerned they would be accused by the allies of noncompliance with Allied Control Council agreements on the liquidation of the German war machine, which could lead to demands by the allies for inspections

     


    On April 17, 1946, the Soviet of Ministers USSR issued a decree No. 874-366ss ordering Ministry of Aviation Industry, MAP, to deport 1,400 German engineers and workers in the USSR. Including family members, the number of deported was expected to reach 3,500 people at that point.

    On August 24, 1946, Colonel General Ivan Serov, a secret police officer who served as a Deputy Commander of the Soviet Administration in Germany, SVAG, sent a letter to Georgy Malenkov, a top party official overseeing rocketry, asking for government decision on the deportation of German specialists in the USSR. A draft of the government decree on the issue reviewed by the SVAG commander V. D. Sokolovsky and leaders of the various industries was conveniently attached to the letter. Among the officials who read the draft were Dmitry Ustinov, the head of Ministry of Armaments, assigned to host the rocket program; Mikhail Khrunichev, the head of Ministry of Aviation Industry, Ustinov's deputy Ivan Zubovich and Soviet representatives in Germany responsible for reactive and radar technology N. E. Nosovsky and M. M. Lukin.

    To minimize the attempts of escape, Soviet authorities scheduled deportations to take place simultaneously across the Soviet zone and in the shortest possible period of time between 15th and 20th of October 1946. The head of Soviet secret police in Germany Ivan Serov would personally lead the operation. Major General A. M. Sidnev, the chief of operations department of the Internal Affairs Ministry, MVD, in Berlin was delegated responsibilities for the logistical support.

    The commander of SVAG Sokolovsky supplied troops, tracks, railroad cars, fuel and food rations. Minister of Internal Affairs Kruglov provided guard units for the trains.

    In the recent past, Serov's chief Lavrenty Beriya had already accumulated a "considerable experience" in forced deportations of entire national minorities in the USSR, which were deemed to be a threat to the Soviet regime.

    On September 13, 1946, Soviet of Ministers USSR issued decree No. 2163-880s entitled"On removal of hardware from the German military enterprises." The document officially launched the process of transfer of German rocket production potential to the USSR. (170)

     


    Operation "Osoaviakhim"

    The Soviet plan to deport thousands of German specialists into the USSR received code name Osoaviakhim, after formally volunteer Soviet organization which in 1930s united many enthusiasts of aviation, rocketry and related disciplines. Some two weeks prior to the operation, Serov received a list of people targeted for deportation. It included 2,200 specialists in the fields of aviation, nuclear technology, rocketry, electronics, radar technology and chemistry. They would be assigned to various industrial enterprises of the USSR:
     


    October 22, 1946

    Days before deportation numerous passenger trains were pre-positioned on the stations around Germany. In the early hours of October 22, 1945, around 2,500 internal police officers accompanied by soldiers were dispatched to the homes of German specialists and ordered them to prepare for the trip to the USSR. Soldiers would then start loading furniture and other household items on tracks and transport them to the assigned railroad stations. (64) (170)

    There were somewhat conflicting reports about the Soviet approach to the deportation of family members of the specialists. Wild rumors circulating for decades told stories about security officers offering German engineers "to take any woman they wanted." In reality, wives of German engineers could choose to stay in Germany, if their husbands did not insist on them going. In a few cases women apparently did take this option. In other cases, unmarried couples traveled together rather than being separated.

    The ordeal experienced by family members of the German specialists was vividly described in the memoirs of Irmgard Gröttrup, the wife of a leading German rocket engineer:

    Could these be the same officers who not so long ago had tried, with a courteous smile, to make the reconstruction of our experimental station palatable to us? The same officers who, in response to our tentative inquiries, assured us that we should never be sent to Russia? Their grin was as friendly as ever. Indeed they even made a few promises: a flat much larger and much nicer than ours, a life without any restrictions, a life in a magnificent country, in a magnificent city amongst grand people. The only thing they couldn't promise was when we should see our own country again... At one point, simply to be free for a moment, I tried to get out through the back door. Impossible! The barrel of a gun- a broad face: "Nyet." (64)

    It took more than 24 hours for the train with German deportees to leave Bleicherode. Gröttrup's family of two adults and two children was assigned three slipping compartments, most other families had one compartment each. Separate cars carried furniture and other household items.

     


    Known data on the number of German rocket engineers in the USSR

    Western sources provided various numbers of German rocket scientists deported to the USSR. According to newly researched Russian data, the actual number of deported German rocket specialists reached 177 people, including 24 people with doctorate degrees, 17 people with master degrees, 71 people with engineering degrees and 27 workers.

    Total 136 people were employed by a newly created NII-88 research institute, including 111 people who were identified as heads of households, 18 people without any dependents or family members and seven workers had been family members of other German employees at NII-88. Total number of German citizens under NII-88's responsibility reached 495 people, including family members.
     


    After completion of tests in Kapustin Yar, Soviet authorities intensified transfer of German specialists from Podlipki to Gorodomlya. Irmgard Gröttrup made following entries in her diary dated by January 1948:

    Once again we are faced with the nightmare of moving. They are making a tremendous drive to transplant everyone to an island near the source of the Volga ... In spite of all protests, the first transport to the island in the Volga is already under way. Helmut has gone with them. He did not want the idea to get about that "It's the boss that's sending us away." Besides, his presence there is meant to boost their morale.

    According to the Russian data, as of January 1, 1948, the number of German specialists at Gorodomlya Island was 96 people, not counting family members, while a year later all but two out of 172 Germans working for the Ministry of Armaments were within the confines of the island.

    Helmut Gröttrup departed for Gorodomlya on February 20, 1948. His wife was allowed to stay in the suburbs of Moscow until June to care for a sick son. One of the last trains carrying Germans to Gorodomlya left on June 16, 1948. Dr. Umpfenbach remained one of the few Germans in Podlipki, before he was also removed to Gorodomlya. (64)

    End of German involvement at OKB-456

    From around mid-1948, Germans at OKB-456 were also denied active involvement in the development of a next generation engines. They were still receiving various assignments, however were no longer able to see a "big picture." According to German authors, Germans participated in the development of the KS-50 and ED-140 experimental engines, which could pave the way to the RD-110 engine -- a significantly scaled up version of the propulsion system from the German A-4 rocket. However all related information in the German source clearly came from a single Russian publication, (113) which in turn gives no credit to German engineers for the respective work. The time frame within KS-50 engine was developed and tested (1949) does not match the period, in which German specialists were actively involved into development work at OKB-456, according to the Russian sources. Therefore, the level of German contribution in the project is still open to interpretation.

    By the end of 1950, Germans who worked for OKB-456 were sent back to Germany.

     

    http://www.russianspaceweb.com/a4_team_moscow.html
  74. @anon
    Talk about cherry-picking facts to support an unsupportable argument.
    One example is Atkinson's claim of immigration restriction causing the attack on Pearl Harbor, editing out Japan's primitive, savage actions against China and other countries, that had a direct affect on the attitude of this country at the time, as well as their pronounced resistance of assimilating into American culture. Most Japanese, before the war, sent their children abroad to Japanese Universities prior to the war, because they believed they were superior. Japanese were about as racist as your average KKK member. Race pride was certainly a significant factor in the Japanese psyche.

    The well documented consumption of Australian prisoners and others during the war gives us a clue of the culture we were actively restricting. American's have never taken a shine to cannibalism, have never apologized for their prejudice against it, and hopefully never will.

    Eating prisoner's of war is just not the American way. Using rifle butts to play Whack-a-Mole with Chinese babies, and murdering and raping entire towns is also on our no-no list.

    To put in easy-to-understand perspective, even the Nazi's were appalled by Japanese primitive savagery. Some members famously attempted to arrest the Japanese animalistic carnage across China years before we entered the War.

    Speak to any "greatest generation" individual still alive, who saw action in the Pacific theatre during the war, and the majority hate Japanese guts to this day. I think it's fair to say this reflects poorly on Japanese soldier's behavior during the war, and the "rumor" that they fought like bloodthirsty animals might carry a bit of truth. The German's, as tough and brutal as they were, created far less rancor in the minds of American soldiers after the war, for pretty good reason.

    It's a perverse sort of bigotry for Atkinson to imply, through glaring omission, that the Japanese shouldn't be judged by modern standards because they were just primitive little yellow devils who didn't know any better at the time. Don't slaughter and eat Australian soldiers? Death marches aren't considered "cricket"? Who knew?

    David Atkinson is an inauthentic, anti-intellectual asshole. I hope I never get as cynical about people in general, or Japanese in particular as that lying piece of such and such.

    Talk about cherry-picking facts to support an unsupportable argument.
    One example is Atkinson’s claim of immigration restriction causing the attack on Pearl Harbor, editing out Japan’s primitive, savage actions against China and other countries, that had a direct affect on the attitude of this country at the time, as well as their pronounced resistance of assimilating into American culture. Most Japanese, before the war, sent their children abroad to Japanese Universities prior to the war, because they believed they were superior. Japanese were about as racist as your average KKK member. Race pride was certainly a significant factor in the Japanese psyche.

    Well if you want a proper description of the events that led up to the Japanese decision to wage a preventive “Bush doctrine” war against the US, commencing with an attack on Pearl Harbor, the best brief summary is the inimitable Pat Buchanan’s essay on the topic:

    Why Did Japan Attack Us?

    It ain’t rocket science – push people and they will, in the end, push back, if they’ve anything about them.

    But for sure it had nothing whatsoever to do with immigration restrictions and Atkinson is a misleading propagandist.

    Eating prisoner’s of war is just not the American way.

    No, the American way, as officially practiced by the US government, is gratuitous “rectal feeding”.

    The American Way

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    • Replies: @syonredux

    Well if you want a proper description of the events that led up to the Japanese decision to wage a preventive “Bush doctrine” war against the US, commencing with an attack on Pearl Harbor, the best brief summary is the inimitable Pat Buchanan’s essay on the topic:

    Why Did Japan Attack Us?

    It ain’t rocket science – push people and they will, in the end, push back, if they’ve anything about them.
     
    Yeah, all the USA had to do was agree to allow the Japanese to dominate East Asia:

    The Three Alls Policy (Chinese: 三光政策; pinyin: Sānguāng Zhèngcè, Japanese: 三光作戦 Sankō Sakusen) was a Japanese scorched earth policy adopted in China during World War II, the three "alls" being "kill all, burn all, loot all"[1] (Chinese: 殺光、燒光、搶光). This policy was designed as retaliation against the Chinese for the Communist-led Hundred Regiments Offensive in December 1940.[2] Contemporary Japanese documents referred to the policy as "The Burn to Ash Strategy"
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Alls_Policy

    The Nanking Massacre was an episode of mass murder and mass rape committed by Japanese troops against the residents of Nanjing (then spelled Nanking), then the capital of the Republic of China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. The massacre occurred over a period of six weeks starting on December 13, 1937, the day that the Japanese captured Nanjing. During this period, soldiers of the Imperial Japanese Army murdered Chinese civilians and disarmed combatants who numbered an estimated 40,000 to over 300,000,[7][8] and perpetrated widespread rape and looting
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_Massacre

    Unit 731 (Japanese: 731部隊 Hepburn: Nana-san-ichi Butai?) was a covert biological and chemical warfare research and development unit of the Imperial Japanese Army that undertook lethal human experimentation during the Second Sino-Japanese War (1937–1945) of World War II. It was responsible for some of the most notorious war crimes carried out by Japan. Unit 731 was based at the Pingfang district of Harbin, the largest city in the Japanese puppet state of Manchukuo (now Northeast China).
    It was officially known as the Epidemic Prevention and Water Purification Department of the Kwantung Army (関東軍防疫給水部本部 Kantōgun Bōeki Kyūsuibu Honbu?). Originally set up under the Kempeitai military police of the Empire of Japan, Unit 731 was taken over and commanded until the end of the war by General Shiro Ishii, an officer in the Kwantung Army. The facility itself was built between 1934 and 1939 and officially adopted the name "Unit 731" in 1941.
    Some historians estimate that up to 250,000[1] men, women, and children[2][3]—from which at least 600 every year were provided by the Kempeitai[4]—were subjected to experimentation conducted by Unit 731 at the camp based in Pingfang alone, which does not include victims from other medical experimentation sites, such as Unit 100.[5]
    Unit 731 veterans of Japan attest that most of the victims they experimented on were Chinese[6] while a small percentage were Russian, Mongolian, Korean, and Allied POW's.[7] Almost 70% of the victims who died in the Pingfang camp were Chinese, including both civilian and military.[8] Close to 30% of the victims were Russian.[9] Some others were South East Asians and Pacific Islanders, at the time colonies of the Empire of Japan, and a small number of Allied prisoners of war.[10] The unit received generous support from the Japanese government up to the end of the war in 1945.
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731
  75. @Steve Sailer
    Who had a better 1945? The Germans with their rockets, cruise missiles, and jets? Or the Americans with their old fashioned piston-powered strategic bombers and long range fighters?

    A lot of our technology was not headline-grabbing, gee-whiz stuff, but was very useful for getting the job done — the K-14 gunsight, for example, which provided the range to the target and the correct lead to take.
    At the 1944 Joint Fighter Conference at NAS Patuxent River in 1944, it was concluded that this sight didn’t improve the accuracy of expert shooters, but it did bring “people in the lower and middle brackets up as much as five or six times better than they had shot before.”
    A lot of our effort was put into making the average or below-average performer better through technology, thus tail-warning radar to help the pilot whose situational awareness was not quite what it should be, IFF to help avoid misidentification of targets, hydraulically-assisted ailerons, dive brakes, g-suits, etc.
    As a participant at the Patuxent Conference said, “I think we in the aircraft game should be worrying about the people in the middle third or bottom half. We have to make better sights, better cockpit arrangements, easier planes to fly for those people. We don’t have to worry about our top shot or our best pilot. He can get along with any rig.”
    That seems to be the opposite of the way things were in the Luftwaffe, which quickly became divided into experten and targets.

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    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Fascinating.
    , @Jim Don Bob
    Same is true of Japanese aviators. The training was rigorous and only the best graduated. Many were dead after Midway. The USA trained thousands of "good enough" pilots, just like they built thousands of "good enough" tanks.
    , @Twinkie

    That seems to be the opposite of the way things were in the Luftwaffe, which quickly became divided into experten and targets.
     
    As I recall, our top aces were often rotated back stateside to teach dogfighting to new pilots. German top aces often stayed on the line and eventually perished.
  76. @Jack D
    You could say that the Americans won despite and not because of their technological lag. We certainly wasted no time adopting the German's inventions as soon as the war was over.

    Who had a better time in Vietnam - the Americans with their jets or the N. Vietnamese with their punji traps? Technology doesn't always win the war. In the case of the Germans, the problem was that the US had a huge pre-war consumer economy - we invented mass production. Once all those car factories were converted to making tanks and planes (and nothing impeded the conversion) , their goose was cooked. One for one, the German stuff was better most of the time, but it wasn't one for one, it was 5 or 10 for 1.

    I don’t know why these things can’t be evaluated without a lot of nationalist chest thumping. The Germans (including a number of Germans Jews) were at the forefront of a lot of STEM inventions and developments for a century before the end of WW2, not only terms of things like rockets and jets but even such things as magnetic tape recording (not to mention chemical engineering, medicine, physics, mathematics, etc. etc.)

    We probably wouldn’t have gotten to the Moon as fast as we did without the several hundred German scientists and engineers we brought here, and we probably wouldn’t have started using magnetic tape recorders as quickly as we did if an American audio engineer hadn’t found a couple of Magnetophone tape machines lying around in Germany after the war.

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    • Replies: @Jack D
    I have no problem accepting that the Germans were ahead of us technologically. I can even accept that the Germans were better soldiers. It still strikes me as insane that Hitler thought that he could beat the Americans AND the Russians AND the British all at once.

    There was always a lot of technological back and forth in the modern era (except during wartime). The airplane itself was an American invention but the Wrights licensed their design to Germany in 1909 and when the war came 5 short years later the Germans had made significant progress. Even in ideology, Henry Ford's anti-Semitic thinking was a major influence on Hitler. Conversely, many famous American products were created by German immigrants such as Steinway and the Duesenbergs.

    It is notable I think that in the post WWII era, German universities no longer stand at the top rank. Heidelberg doesn't appear in the Shanghai rankings until #47 and the US (and to a lesser extent the UK) dominates the top ranks. That the US emerged as the victor in the war was certainly a major factor but maybe getting rid of all their Jewish professors was not really such a good idea after all.
  77. @SPMoore8
    I don't know why these things can't be evaluated without a lot of nationalist chest thumping. The Germans (including a number of Germans Jews) were at the forefront of a lot of STEM inventions and developments for a century before the end of WW2, not only terms of things like rockets and jets but even such things as magnetic tape recording (not to mention chemical engineering, medicine, physics, mathematics, etc. etc.)

    We probably wouldn't have gotten to the Moon as fast as we did without the several hundred German scientists and engineers we brought here, and we probably wouldn't have started using magnetic tape recorders as quickly as we did if an American audio engineer hadn't found a couple of Magnetophone tape machines lying around in Germany after the war.

    I have no problem accepting that the Germans were ahead of us technologically. I can even accept that the Germans were better soldiers. It still strikes me as insane that Hitler thought that he could beat the Americans AND the Russians AND the British all at once.

    There was always a lot of technological back and forth in the modern era (except during wartime). The airplane itself was an American invention but the Wrights licensed their design to Germany in 1909 and when the war came 5 short years later the Germans had made significant progress. Even in ideology, Henry Ford’s anti-Semitic thinking was a major influence on Hitler. Conversely, many famous American products were created by German immigrants such as Steinway and the Duesenbergs.

    It is notable I think that in the post WWII era, German universities no longer stand at the top rank. Heidelberg doesn’t appear in the Shanghai rankings until #47 and the US (and to a lesser extent the UK) dominates the top ranks. That the US emerged as the victor in the war was certainly a major factor but maybe getting rid of all their Jewish professors was not really such a good idea after all.

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    • Replies: @Desiderius

    It still strikes me as insane that Hitler thought that he could beat the Americans AND the Russians AND the British all at once.
     
    It was supposed to be series, not parallel.

    Churchill was the spanner in the works.
    , @SPMoore8
    I wasn't thinking of you personally so much as other commentators who seem particularly upset that the Germans had anything to do with our rocket/space program.

    There are a number of things I find admirable about Germans and their culture, but I'm probably in a large majority that is happy that their martial traditions have mostly disappeared. At least for the time being.
    , @syonredux

    I have no problem accepting that the Germans were ahead of us technologically.
     
    In some areas (e.g., rockets) they were ahead; in other areas (e.g., radar) they were behind.

    Even in ideology, Henry Ford’s anti-Semitic thinking was a major influence on Hitler.

     

    That's a vast exaggeration. Hitler's anti-Jewish weltanschauung was already firmly in place by the time (1922) The International Jew was translated into German.

    It still strikes me as insane that Hitler thought that he could beat the Americans AND the Russians AND the British all at once.
     
    That's what happens when you listen to too much opera....

    Kidding aside, no one's really been able to figure out why Hitler unilaterally declared war on the USA. Heck, he didn't even get the Japanese (as a quid pro quo) to agree to declare war on the USSR.
  78. @Jack D
    I have no problem accepting that the Germans were ahead of us technologically. I can even accept that the Germans were better soldiers. It still strikes me as insane that Hitler thought that he could beat the Americans AND the Russians AND the British all at once.

    There was always a lot of technological back and forth in the modern era (except during wartime). The airplane itself was an American invention but the Wrights licensed their design to Germany in 1909 and when the war came 5 short years later the Germans had made significant progress. Even in ideology, Henry Ford's anti-Semitic thinking was a major influence on Hitler. Conversely, many famous American products were created by German immigrants such as Steinway and the Duesenbergs.

    It is notable I think that in the post WWII era, German universities no longer stand at the top rank. Heidelberg doesn't appear in the Shanghai rankings until #47 and the US (and to a lesser extent the UK) dominates the top ranks. That the US emerged as the victor in the war was certainly a major factor but maybe getting rid of all their Jewish professors was not really such a good idea after all.

    It still strikes me as insane that Hitler thought that he could beat the Americans AND the Russians AND the British all at once.

    It was supposed to be series, not parallel.

    Churchill was the spanner in the works.

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    • Replies: @MBlanc46
    That, and Hitler thinking that all he had to so was kick the (Soviet) door in and the whole rotten edifice would collapse. The Reds were to be beaten within a few months. Then the British, seeing their principal ally of the time defeated, would see the light and negotiate peace. The US wouldn't have even been (officially) in the war yet.
    , @syonredux

    It still strikes me as insane that Hitler thought that he could beat the Americans AND the Russians AND the British all at once.

    It was supposed to be series, not parallel.

    Churchill was the spanner in the works.
     
    The UK was already at war when he became PM.

    Frankly, even if the British had stayed out of it ( a possibility that is somewhere in the neighborhood of Alien Space Bats showing up), I'm far from certain that Germany would have been able to defeat the USSR.
  79. @anonymous
    "Apparently the immigration restrictions in the ’24 act didn’t apply to Nazi rocket scientists or else there would be no moon picture."

    Von Braun likely wouldn't have claimed that. Perhaps it would have taken another half decade. But maybe not. Within a few years of getting started the US aviation industry was surpassing the Germans, particularly as they began to apply computers to aerospace problems. Heck, the original rocket work that inspired Von Braun was by the American pioneer, Robert Goddard, it's not like rockets were some magic German pixie dust. It was not like the US didn't have a larger and more successful aviation industry than Germany by that time, an industry that also had considerable experience in rocketry by the end of the war, jato and all that. As to bettering Von Braun's Germans:


    "...the first-stage rocket engine for the Navaho began with two refurbished V-2 engines in 1947. That same year, the phase II engine was designed, the XLR-41-NA-1, a simplified version of the V-2 engine made from American parts. The phase III engine, XLR-43-NA-... adopted a cylindrical combustion chamber with the experimental German impinging-stream injector plate. Engineers at North American were able to solve the combustion stability problem, which had prevented it being used in the V-2, and the engine was successfully tested at full power in 1951. The Phase IV engine, XLR-43-NA-3 (120K), replaced the poorly cooled heavy German engine wall with a brazed tubular ("spaghetti") construction, which was becoming the new standard..."

     

    Then there's this--:


    "...in 1963, von Braun, reflecting on the history of rocketry, said of Goddard: "His rockets ... may have been rather crude by present-day standards, but they blazed the trail and incorporated many features used in our most modern rockets and space vehicles". He once recalled that "Goddard's experiments in liquid fuel saved us years of work, and enabled us to perfect the V-2 years before it would have been possible."

     

    So sounds like if it hadn't been for Americans, the Germans may have never gotten to London? This is all silly.

    It was not like the US didn’t have a larger and more successful aviation industry than Germany

    This can’t be emphasized enough. Most of the technological innovations in the development of the airplane, from the turn-and-bank indicator to the Fowler flap, were American, and in NACA we had a research organization second to none.
    The whole Operation Paper Clip episode reminds me of how at the beginning of the war, the government pushed our industry to produce British stuff. A well-known example is how Emerson Electronics, then headed by Stuart Symington, was ordered to manufacture a British gun turret, instead of just designing and manufacturing one. But the government wanted it with .50 cal. rather than .303 cal. The result was a fiasco that resulted in Symington giving the factory to the government and refusing to do war work and a Truman Committee investigation. Once he was able to get clear of the stupid government infatuation with the foreign, he was able to make some jolly good gun turrets.
    Another example is the government wanting the AAF to adopt the Spitfire and have it manufactured in the US. Brig. Gen. Ben Kelsey, chief of the Army’s Fighter Project Branch at the time, successfully defeated that, with a damning indictment of just about every aspect of that airplane.
    Unfortunately he was not able to prevent the production of the mechanically supercharged Merlin engine by Packard and it’s adoption in the P-51, which he thought was a major mistake, the exhaust-gas-driven turbo-supercharged Allison being by far the better choice.
    As far as ballistic rockets and all of that, the Navy developed plans to orbit weather and photo recon satellites in 1944. They would make one orbit, flying over Japan, snap pictures, and return to earth via parachute. No Nazi scientists were involved.
    I read an article, it may have been an excerpt from a book, by a man who worked on the Jupiter C project, in which he wrote that the inclusion of the German scientists just delayed things and caused resentment and friction because people who had been working various engineering projects for years, had a lot of success, and were in senior positions and expected to run the show were told, no, you take orders from these Heil Hitler boys. Some of the Jewish guys, especially, were a little peeved.

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    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    My impression is that the Germans were too creative and futuristic in their R&D in the middle of WWII, coming up with, say, a rocket plane, which turned out to be a dead-end. Heck, they were working on an electric rail gun, which the US Navy is still working on today.

    Hitler was into war-winning super weapons, which encouraged expensive futurist systems like the V2.

    The Americans did a better job of building a whole bunch of units of leading edge but not bleeding edge stuff like the P-51. The P-51 was obsolete for dogfighting by the Korean War because of jets, but it was plenty good, especially in vast numbers, in 1944-45.

    , @MarkinLA
    Unfortunately he was not able to prevent the production of the mechanically supercharged Merlin engine by Packard and it’s adoption in the P-51, which he thought was a major mistake, the exhaust-gas-driven turbo-supercharged Allison being by far the better choice.

    I saw a documentary about a guy who rebuilt a few P-51s in England. In it they said the Allison engine had too low a flight envelope. The only problem with the Merlin was that is was finicky and needed constant maintenance. The guy in England fixed a lot of these problems and everybody who wants their Merlin rebuilt send them to him.

    The documentary is "Plane Resurrection". Available on Netflix.
  80. @Jack D
    I have no problem accepting that the Germans were ahead of us technologically. I can even accept that the Germans were better soldiers. It still strikes me as insane that Hitler thought that he could beat the Americans AND the Russians AND the British all at once.

    There was always a lot of technological back and forth in the modern era (except during wartime). The airplane itself was an American invention but the Wrights licensed their design to Germany in 1909 and when the war came 5 short years later the Germans had made significant progress. Even in ideology, Henry Ford's anti-Semitic thinking was a major influence on Hitler. Conversely, many famous American products were created by German immigrants such as Steinway and the Duesenbergs.

    It is notable I think that in the post WWII era, German universities no longer stand at the top rank. Heidelberg doesn't appear in the Shanghai rankings until #47 and the US (and to a lesser extent the UK) dominates the top ranks. That the US emerged as the victor in the war was certainly a major factor but maybe getting rid of all their Jewish professors was not really such a good idea after all.

    I wasn’t thinking of you personally so much as other commentators who seem particularly upset that the Germans had anything to do with our rocket/space program.

    There are a number of things I find admirable about Germans and their culture, but I’m probably in a large majority that is happy that their martial traditions have mostly disappeared. At least for the time being.

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  81. @Hapalong Cassidy
    Just to play Devil's Advocate, I do see a plausible argument that a more open immigration policy can reduce the enthusiasm for military adventurism among a nation's citizens. It's more difficult to dehumanize an opposing country when many of your own citizens originally came from there. For example, it's safe to say that during WW2 the Japanese were far more hated than the Germans. Obviously there's the racial angle, but Americans were also far more familiar with German culture due to the large number of German-descended citizens. And when it came to the Japanese, as far as Americans were concerned, Pearl Harbor may have just as well been bombed by aliens from outer space.

    There was ridiculous anti-German propaganda in both WWI and II, though moreso with I. We treated them horribly viciously, on par with how we treated the Japanese, though with less dehumanization. Certainly it was harder to pump up animosity given how many Americans were of German extraction, but what’s the difference when it ends in Hamburg, Berlin, Dresden, Nuremberg, etc.? That’s after the war got rolling, however, which is the hard part.

    Not hard enough. We fought our two biggest wars ever two-thirds against them, despite our massive ethnic German population. I believe they would have found a way to jump in the fight with or without Pearl Harbor. (In fact, Pearl Harbor was their way, custom-ordered, though I don’t think Washington got exactly what it expected.) People still underestimate propaganda’s effectiveness, as well as people’s ignorance. People remain ignorant enough even of that which they know well.

    Say you speak German and have knowledge of German culture and history. Ah, but do you know what’s happened? The devil has taken it over, and turned it upsidedown. We’ve got to root him out! (Don’t bother wondering how many innocents that’ll endangered; we won’t talk to you about that part.) You don’t need to convince the public Germany is full of man-eating insects like Japan to get them to fight.

    None of this is pertinent, anyway, because there’s no way the U.S. is ever going to have a Muslim population as big as its German population. Lest it stop being the U.S. Which may have already happened.

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  82. @bomag

    ...there was actually some tradition of persons of those nationalities being involved in what we would now call “terrorist” activities...
     
    Why has the immigration debate come down to just wanting to keep out the violent? It is completely acceptable to keep out the very nice. We should be able to populate the country with our own people; or just enjoy the pleasures of more elbow room one would get from having fewer people around.

    Absolutely. It’s our country. We entirely within our rights to say who, if anyone, is allowed in.

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  83. @Desiderius

    It still strikes me as insane that Hitler thought that he could beat the Americans AND the Russians AND the British all at once.
     
    It was supposed to be series, not parallel.

    Churchill was the spanner in the works.

    That, and Hitler thinking that all he had to so was kick the (Soviet) door in and the whole rotten edifice would collapse. The Reds were to be beaten within a few months. Then the British, seeing their principal ally of the time defeated, would see the light and negotiate peace. The US wouldn’t have even been (officially) in the war yet.

    Read More
    • Replies: @syonredux

    That, and Hitler thinking that all he had to so was kick the (Soviet) door in and the whole rotten edifice would collapse. The Reds were to be beaten within a few months.
     
    And then the real work would begin:

    The Hunger Plan (German: der Hungerplan; der Backe-Plan) was a plan developed by Nazi Germany during World War II to seize food from the Soviet Union and give it to German soldiers and civilians; the plan entailed the death by starvation of millions of "racially inferior" Slavs following Operation Barbarossa, the 1941 invasion of the Soviet Union. The premise behind the Hunger Plan was that Germany was not self-sufficient in food supplies, and to sustain the war and keep up the domestic morale it needed to obtain the food from conquered lands at any cost. It was an engineered famine, planned and implemented as an act of policy. This plan was developed during the planning phase for the Wehrmacht (German Armed Forces) invasion and provided for diverting of the Ukrainian food stuffs away from central and northern Russia and redirecting them for the benefit of the invading army and the population in Germany. The plan resulted in the deaths of millions of people.[1] The plan as a means of mass murder was outlined in several documents, including one that became known as Göring's Green Folder, which quoted a number of "20 to 30 million" expected Russian deaths from "military actions and crises of food supply."
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunger_Plan

    The Generalplan Ost (German pronunciation: [ɡenəˈʁaːlˌplaːn ˈɔst]; English: Master Plan for the East), abbreviated GPO, was the Nazi German government's plan for the colonization of Central and Eastern Europe.[2] The implementation of the plan necessitated genocide and ethnic cleansing on a vast scale,[3] to be undertaken in territories occupied by Germany during World War II.[3] The plan was partially realized during the war, resulting indirectly and directly in a very large number of deaths, but its full implementation was not considered practicable during the major military operations, and was prevented by Germany's defeat.
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalplan_Ost
  84. @Jack D
    The Russians did the same thing with their Nazi rocket scientists. They downloaded all their knowledge and then after a few years when they were done with them they sent them home and ran an indigenous program (which was nicer than what we did - we kept all those Germans in Alabama). It's like those things where you fire your IT Dept. and then force them to train their Indian replacements.

    Assuming the Russians had done this and we hadn't then the Russians would have been say 5 years ahead of us. The moon is a lifeless rock with no value except propaganda value, so if the Russians had beaten us there (and it was pretty close) , we would never have gone, just as the Russians quit as soon as we beat them.

    They downloaded all their knowledge and then after a few years when they were done with them they sent them home and ran an indigenous program (which was nicer than what we did – we kept all those Germans in Alabama).

    RE: Soviet use of German rocketry experts:

    In October 1946, the best German engineers who worked for the Soviet missile program were ordered on the trains and sent to the various locations in the USSR to assist in the organization of missile production and design. By the beginning of the 1947, Soviets completed the transfer of all works on rocket technology from Germany into secret locations in the USSR. In the fall of 1947, Soviet-German team launched eleven A-4 rockets near the village of Kapustin Yar in the steppes north of the Caspian Sea.

    Given a pathological obsession of the Soviet government with secrecy, it was a remarkable phenomenon that Joseph Stalin did allow hundreds of Soviet specialists, many of them recent GULAG inmates, travel to postwar Germany and work side by side with their German colleagues on the development of rocket technology. Inevitably, the whole endeavor had a temporary nature, aimed to train Soviet cadre in the industry that was virtually nonexistent in the USSR at the time. From the outset of the program, Soviet authorities had grave concerns about engaging thousands of Germans, who had relative freedom of movement, into the sensitive defense project.

    On May 7, 1946, Ivan Serov, the head of the Soviet security policy, NKVD, in Germany received a letter from A. G. Mrykin from the artillery directorate, GAU, complaining about overwhelming number of Germans involved in the Soviet rocket development effort. The document stressed that German specialists not only were gaining experience in the production of the current German technology, but also had direct access to the Soviet efforts to develop follow-on rocket systems. (170)

    Along with having their rocket program exposed to Western intelligence, the USSR was now restoring military-industrial potential of Germany, something the Soviet government was least interested to do. Not to mention, Soviet authorities were concerned they would be accused by the allies of noncompliance with Allied Control Council agreements on the liquidation of the German war machine, which could lead to demands by the allies for inspections

    On April 17, 1946, the Soviet of Ministers USSR issued a decree No. 874-366ss ordering Ministry of Aviation Industry, MAP, to deport 1,400 German engineers and workers in the USSR. Including family members, the number of deported was expected to reach 3,500 people at that point.

    On August 24, 1946, Colonel General Ivan Serov, a secret police officer who served as a Deputy Commander of the Soviet Administration in Germany, SVAG, sent a letter to Georgy Malenkov, a top party official overseeing rocketry, asking for government decision on the deportation of German specialists in the USSR. A draft of the government decree on the issue reviewed by the SVAG commander V. D. Sokolovsky and leaders of the various industries was conveniently attached to the letter. Among the officials who read the draft were Dmitry Ustinov, the head of Ministry of Armaments, assigned to host the rocket program; Mikhail Khrunichev, the head of Ministry of Aviation Industry, Ustinov’s deputy Ivan Zubovich and Soviet representatives in Germany responsible for reactive and radar technology N. E. Nosovsky and M. M. Lukin.

    To minimize the attempts of escape, Soviet authorities scheduled deportations to take place simultaneously across the Soviet zone and in the shortest possible period of time between 15th and 20th of October 1946. The head of Soviet secret police in Germany Ivan Serov would personally lead the operation. Major General A. M. Sidnev, the chief of operations department of the Internal Affairs Ministry, MVD, in Berlin was delegated responsibilities for the logistical support.

    The commander of SVAG Sokolovsky supplied troops, tracks, railroad cars, fuel and food rations. Minister of Internal Affairs Kruglov provided guard units for the trains.

    In the recent past, Serov’s chief Lavrenty Beriya had already accumulated a “considerable experience” in forced deportations of entire national minorities in the USSR, which were deemed to be a threat to the Soviet regime.

    On September 13, 1946, Soviet of Ministers USSR issued decree No. 2163-880s entitled”On removal of hardware from the German military enterprises.” The document officially launched the process of transfer of German rocket production potential to the USSR. (170)

    Operation “Osoaviakhim”

    The Soviet plan to deport thousands of German specialists into the USSR received code name Osoaviakhim, after formally volunteer Soviet organization which in 1930s united many enthusiasts of aviation, rocketry and related disciplines. Some two weeks prior to the operation, Serov received a list of people targeted for deportation. It included 2,200 specialists in the fields of aviation, nuclear technology, rocketry, electronics, radar technology and chemistry. They would be assigned to various industrial enterprises of the USSR:

    October 22, 1946

    Days before deportation numerous passenger trains were pre-positioned on the stations around Germany. In the early hours of October 22, 1945, around 2,500 internal police officers accompanied by soldiers were dispatched to the homes of German specialists and ordered them to prepare for the trip to the USSR. Soldiers would then start loading furniture and other household items on tracks and transport them to the assigned railroad stations. (64) (170)

    There were somewhat conflicting reports about the Soviet approach to the deportation of family members of the specialists. Wild rumors circulating for decades told stories about security officers offering German engineers “to take any woman they wanted.” In reality, wives of German engineers could choose to stay in Germany, if their husbands did not insist on them going. In a few cases women apparently did take this option. In other cases, unmarried couples traveled together rather than being separated.

    The ordeal experienced by family members of the German specialists was vividly described in the memoirs of Irmgard Gröttrup, the wife of a leading German rocket engineer:

    Could these be the same officers who not so long ago had tried, with a courteous smile, to make the reconstruction of our experimental station palatable to us? The same officers who, in response to our tentative inquiries, assured us that we should never be sent to Russia? Their grin was as friendly as ever. Indeed they even made a few promises: a flat much larger and much nicer than ours, a life without any restrictions, a life in a magnificent country, in a magnificent city amongst grand people. The only thing they couldn’t promise was when we should see our own country again… At one point, simply to be free for a moment, I tried to get out through the back door. Impossible! The barrel of a gun- a broad face: “Nyet.” (64)

    It took more than 24 hours for the train with German deportees to leave Bleicherode. Gröttrup’s family of two adults and two children was assigned three slipping compartments, most other families had one compartment each. Separate cars carried furniture and other household items.

    Known data on the number of German rocket engineers in the USSR

    Western sources provided various numbers of German rocket scientists deported to the USSR. According to newly researched Russian data, the actual number of deported German rocket specialists reached 177 people, including 24 people with doctorate degrees, 17 people with master degrees, 71 people with engineering degrees and 27 workers.

    Total 136 people were employed by a newly created NII-88 research institute, including 111 people who were identified as heads of households, 18 people without any dependents or family members and seven workers had been family members of other German employees at NII-88. Total number of German citizens under NII-88′s responsibility reached 495 people, including family members.

    After completion of tests in Kapustin Yar, Soviet authorities intensified transfer of German specialists from Podlipki to Gorodomlya. Irmgard Gröttrup made following entries in her diary dated by January 1948:

    Once again we are faced with the nightmare of moving. They are making a tremendous drive to transplant everyone to an island near the source of the Volga … In spite of all protests, the first transport to the island in the Volga is already under way. Helmut has gone with them. He did not want the idea to get about that “It’s the boss that’s sending us away.” Besides, his presence there is meant to boost their morale.

    According to the Russian data, as of January 1, 1948, the number of German specialists at Gorodomlya Island was 96 people, not counting family members, while a year later all but two out of 172 Germans working for the Ministry of Armaments were within the confines of the island.

    Helmut Gröttrup departed for Gorodomlya on February 20, 1948. His wife was allowed to stay in the suburbs of Moscow until June to care for a sick son. One of the last trains carrying Germans to Gorodomlya left on June 16, 1948. Dr. Umpfenbach remained one of the few Germans in Podlipki, before he was also removed to Gorodomlya. (64)

    End of German involvement at OKB-456

    From around mid-1948, Germans at OKB-456 were also denied active involvement in the development of a next generation engines. They were still receiving various assignments, however were no longer able to see a “big picture.” According to German authors, Germans participated in the development of the KS-50 and ED-140 experimental engines, which could pave the way to the RD-110 engine — a significantly scaled up version of the propulsion system from the German A-4 rocket. However all related information in the German source clearly came from a single Russian publication, (113) which in turn gives no credit to German engineers for the respective work. The time frame within KS-50 engine was developed and tested (1949) does not match the period, in which German specialists were actively involved into development work at OKB-456, according to the Russian sources. Therefore, the level of German contribution in the project is still open to interpretation.

    By the end of 1950, Germans who worked for OKB-456 were sent back to Germany.

    http://www.russianspaceweb.com/a4_team_moscow.html

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jack D
    What was remarkable was how nicely Stalin (who was not known for treating anyone except with the utmost brutality) treated the German scientists. Yes he forcibly deported them but they were allowed to bring their families, furniture and household goods, rode on a passenger train and given better accommodations than most Russians when they arrived. I assure you that when my mother and her family were deported to Kazakhstan in 1940 (at the time they thought that this was beyond tragic but it was the best thing that ever happened to them, saved them from the Einsatzgruppen the next year) they were treated in almost the exact opposite way (except for the part where the NKVD surrounds your house and arrests you in the middle of the night - that was SOP).

    And when they were done with them they let them go back instead of shooting them in the back of the head as German spies.
  85. @Desiderius

    It still strikes me as insane that Hitler thought that he could beat the Americans AND the Russians AND the British all at once.
     
    It was supposed to be series, not parallel.

    Churchill was the spanner in the works.

    It still strikes me as insane that Hitler thought that he could beat the Americans AND the Russians AND the British all at once.

    It was supposed to be series, not parallel.

    Churchill was the spanner in the works.

    The UK was already at war when he became PM.

    Frankly, even if the British had stayed out of it ( a possibility that is somewhere in the neighborhood of Alien Space Bats showing up), I’m far from certain that Germany would have been able to defeat the USSR.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Desiderius

    The UK was already at war when he became PM.

     

    Beside the point. He was the leader of the war party since the mid-30s.

    Frankly, even if the British had stayed out of it ( a possibility that is somewhere in the neighborhood of Alien Space Bats showing up), I’m far from certain that Germany would have been able to defeat the USSR.
     
    Hess thought it far likelier than that. Germany may have even been counting (mistakenly, obviously) on White v. Red British assistance against Bolshevism.
  86. @Jack D
    I have no problem accepting that the Germans were ahead of us technologically. I can even accept that the Germans were better soldiers. It still strikes me as insane that Hitler thought that he could beat the Americans AND the Russians AND the British all at once.

    There was always a lot of technological back and forth in the modern era (except during wartime). The airplane itself was an American invention but the Wrights licensed their design to Germany in 1909 and when the war came 5 short years later the Germans had made significant progress. Even in ideology, Henry Ford's anti-Semitic thinking was a major influence on Hitler. Conversely, many famous American products were created by German immigrants such as Steinway and the Duesenbergs.

    It is notable I think that in the post WWII era, German universities no longer stand at the top rank. Heidelberg doesn't appear in the Shanghai rankings until #47 and the US (and to a lesser extent the UK) dominates the top ranks. That the US emerged as the victor in the war was certainly a major factor but maybe getting rid of all their Jewish professors was not really such a good idea after all.

    I have no problem accepting that the Germans were ahead of us technologically.

    In some areas (e.g., rockets) they were ahead; in other areas (e.g., radar) they were behind.

    Even in ideology, Henry Ford’s anti-Semitic thinking was a major influence on Hitler.

    That’s a vast exaggeration. Hitler’s anti-Jewish weltanschauung was already firmly in place by the time (1922) The International Jew was translated into German.

    It still strikes me as insane that Hitler thought that he could beat the Americans AND the Russians AND the British all at once.

    That’s what happens when you listen to too much opera….

    Kidding aside, no one’s really been able to figure out why Hitler unilaterally declared war on the USA. Heck, he didn’t even get the Japanese (as a quid pro quo) to agree to declare war on the USSR.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Johann Ricke

    Kidding aside, no one's really been able to figure out why Hitler unilaterally declared war on the USA. Heck, he didn't even get the Japanese (as a quid pro quo) to agree to declare war on the USSR.
     
    If his physician's records are accurate, the man was a walking pharmacy:

    Morell kept a medical diary of the drugs, tonics, vitamins and other substances he administered to Hitler, usually by injection (up to 20 times per day) or in pill form. Most were commercial preparations, some were Morell's own mixes. Since some of these compounds[citation needed] are considered toxic, historians have speculated that Morell inadvertently contributed to Hitler's deteriorating health. The fragmentary list (below) of some 74 substances (in 28 different mixtures)[9] administered to Hitler include psychoactive drugs such as heroin as well as commercial poisons. Among the compounds, in alphabetical order, were:[5]

    Atropa belladonna (2–4 pills with every meal in Koster's Antigaspills,[10] compound containing strychnine, subject of investigation) [11]
    atropine (extract of seminal vesicles) [10]
    Brom-Nervacit (bromide, since August 1941 a spoonful almost every night, to counteract stimulation from methamphetamine and permit sleep)[5]
    caffeine
    chamomile
    cocaine and adrenaline (via eyedrops) [12]
    E. coli [13]
    enzymes
    Eukodal or Eukodol (trade name for oxycodone)[14]
    Eupaverinum (papaverine, antispasmotic)[5]
    Glyconorm (metformin) [5]
    Methamphetamine (as Pervitin and Vitamultin)[5][10]
    morphine
    Mutaflor (pills prescribed to Hitler for flatulence in 1936, the first unorthodox drug treatment from Morell; bacteria extracted from human faeces, see: E. coli)[13]
    oxedrine tartrate
    potassium bromide
    prophenazone (a derivative of Phenazone)
    proteins and lipids derived from animal tissues and fats
    sodium barbitone
    strychnine[11]
    sulfonamide
    testosterone
    vitamins

    An almost complete listing of the drugs used by Morell, wrote historian Hugh Trevor-Roper, was compiled after the war from his own meticulous daily records unlikely to have been exaggerated.[9]

    By April 1945, Hitler was taking 28 different pills a day, along with numerous injections (including many of glucose) every few hours and intravenous injections of methamphetamine almost every day.[citation needed] The personal notes of Morell, describe how he treated Hitler over the years, including notations such as, "injection as always", and, "Eukodal", which is a strong opiate equivalent of Oxycodone.[14]
     
    , @SPMoore8
    Many years ago while I was browsing a volume of Stalin's speeches in Russian -- how's that for a lede -- I came across one from (IIRC) early December, 1941, and he was talking about how many trucks the US was sending to the USSR to defeat the Hitlerites.

    Ever since then, I have felt that Hitler's declaration of war against the US was in fact a consequence of the material aid the US was already giving to the Allies, plus the fact that the offensive against Moscow had petered out just a few days earlier (December 5.)

    As a short term tactic, it theoretically could have worked (but Hitler would never have defeated Russia.) The U Boats sank a lot of tonnage in 1942.

    But it was just another Hitler gamble that failed.
  87. @MBlanc46
    That, and Hitler thinking that all he had to so was kick the (Soviet) door in and the whole rotten edifice would collapse. The Reds were to be beaten within a few months. Then the British, seeing their principal ally of the time defeated, would see the light and negotiate peace. The US wouldn't have even been (officially) in the war yet.

    That, and Hitler thinking that all he had to so was kick the (Soviet) door in and the whole rotten edifice would collapse. The Reds were to be beaten within a few months.

    And then the real work would begin:

    The Hunger Plan (German: der Hungerplan; der Backe-Plan) was a plan developed by Nazi Germany during World War II to seize food from the Soviet Union and give it to German soldiers and civilians; the plan entailed the death by starvation of millions of “racially inferior” Slavs following Operation Barbarossa, the 1941 invasion of the Soviet Union. The premise behind the Hunger Plan was that Germany was not self-sufficient in food supplies, and to sustain the war and keep up the domestic morale it needed to obtain the food from conquered lands at any cost. It was an engineered famine, planned and implemented as an act of policy. This plan was developed during the planning phase for the Wehrmacht (German Armed Forces) invasion and provided for diverting of the Ukrainian food stuffs away from central and northern Russia and redirecting them for the benefit of the invading army and the population in Germany. The plan resulted in the deaths of millions of people.[1] The plan as a means of mass murder was outlined in several documents, including one that became known as Göring’s Green Folder, which quoted a number of “20 to 30 million” expected Russian deaths from “military actions and crises of food supply.”

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunger_Plan

    The Generalplan Ost (German pronunciation: [ɡenəˈʁaːlˌplaːn ˈɔst]; English: Master Plan for the East), abbreviated GPO, was the Nazi German government’s plan for the colonization of Central and Eastern Europe.[2] The implementation of the plan necessitated genocide and ethnic cleansing on a vast scale,[3] to be undertaken in territories occupied by Germany during World War II.[3] The plan was partially realized during the war, resulting indirectly and directly in a very large number of deaths, but its full implementation was not considered practicable during the major military operations, and was prevented by Germany’s defeat.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalplan_Ost

    Read More
  88. @syonredux

    They downloaded all their knowledge and then after a few years when they were done with them they sent them home and ran an indigenous program (which was nicer than what we did – we kept all those Germans in Alabama).
     
    RE: Soviet use of German rocketry experts:

    In October 1946, the best German engineers who worked for the Soviet missile program were ordered on the trains and sent to the various locations in the USSR to assist in the organization of missile production and design. By the beginning of the 1947, Soviets completed the transfer of all works on rocket technology from Germany into secret locations in the USSR. In the fall of 1947, Soviet-German team launched eleven A-4 rockets near the village of Kapustin Yar in the steppes north of the Caspian Sea.
     

    Given a pathological obsession of the Soviet government with secrecy, it was a remarkable phenomenon that Joseph Stalin did allow hundreds of Soviet specialists, many of them recent GULAG inmates, travel to postwar Germany and work side by side with their German colleagues on the development of rocket technology. Inevitably, the whole endeavor had a temporary nature, aimed to train Soviet cadre in the industry that was virtually nonexistent in the USSR at the time. From the outset of the program, Soviet authorities had grave concerns about engaging thousands of Germans, who had relative freedom of movement, into the sensitive defense project.

    On May 7, 1946, Ivan Serov, the head of the Soviet security policy, NKVD, in Germany received a letter from A. G. Mrykin from the artillery directorate, GAU, complaining about overwhelming number of Germans involved in the Soviet rocket development effort. The document stressed that German specialists not only were gaining experience in the production of the current German technology, but also had direct access to the Soviet efforts to develop follow-on rocket systems. (170)

    Along with having their rocket program exposed to Western intelligence, the USSR was now restoring military-industrial potential of Germany, something the Soviet government was least interested to do. Not to mention, Soviet authorities were concerned they would be accused by the allies of noncompliance with Allied Control Council agreements on the liquidation of the German war machine, which could lead to demands by the allies for inspections

     


    On April 17, 1946, the Soviet of Ministers USSR issued a decree No. 874-366ss ordering Ministry of Aviation Industry, MAP, to deport 1,400 German engineers and workers in the USSR. Including family members, the number of deported was expected to reach 3,500 people at that point.

    On August 24, 1946, Colonel General Ivan Serov, a secret police officer who served as a Deputy Commander of the Soviet Administration in Germany, SVAG, sent a letter to Georgy Malenkov, a top party official overseeing rocketry, asking for government decision on the deportation of German specialists in the USSR. A draft of the government decree on the issue reviewed by the SVAG commander V. D. Sokolovsky and leaders of the various industries was conveniently attached to the letter. Among the officials who read the draft were Dmitry Ustinov, the head of Ministry of Armaments, assigned to host the rocket program; Mikhail Khrunichev, the head of Ministry of Aviation Industry, Ustinov's deputy Ivan Zubovich and Soviet representatives in Germany responsible for reactive and radar technology N. E. Nosovsky and M. M. Lukin.

    To minimize the attempts of escape, Soviet authorities scheduled deportations to take place simultaneously across the Soviet zone and in the shortest possible period of time between 15th and 20th of October 1946. The head of Soviet secret police in Germany Ivan Serov would personally lead the operation. Major General A. M. Sidnev, the chief of operations department of the Internal Affairs Ministry, MVD, in Berlin was delegated responsibilities for the logistical support.

    The commander of SVAG Sokolovsky supplied troops, tracks, railroad cars, fuel and food rations. Minister of Internal Affairs Kruglov provided guard units for the trains.

    In the recent past, Serov's chief Lavrenty Beriya had already accumulated a "considerable experience" in forced deportations of entire national minorities in the USSR, which were deemed to be a threat to the Soviet regime.

    On September 13, 1946, Soviet of Ministers USSR issued decree No. 2163-880s entitled"On removal of hardware from the German military enterprises." The document officially launched the process of transfer of German rocket production potential to the USSR. (170)

     


    Operation "Osoaviakhim"

    The Soviet plan to deport thousands of German specialists into the USSR received code name Osoaviakhim, after formally volunteer Soviet organization which in 1930s united many enthusiasts of aviation, rocketry and related disciplines. Some two weeks prior to the operation, Serov received a list of people targeted for deportation. It included 2,200 specialists in the fields of aviation, nuclear technology, rocketry, electronics, radar technology and chemistry. They would be assigned to various industrial enterprises of the USSR:
     


    October 22, 1946

    Days before deportation numerous passenger trains were pre-positioned on the stations around Germany. In the early hours of October 22, 1945, around 2,500 internal police officers accompanied by soldiers were dispatched to the homes of German specialists and ordered them to prepare for the trip to the USSR. Soldiers would then start loading furniture and other household items on tracks and transport them to the assigned railroad stations. (64) (170)

    There were somewhat conflicting reports about the Soviet approach to the deportation of family members of the specialists. Wild rumors circulating for decades told stories about security officers offering German engineers "to take any woman they wanted." In reality, wives of German engineers could choose to stay in Germany, if their husbands did not insist on them going. In a few cases women apparently did take this option. In other cases, unmarried couples traveled together rather than being separated.

    The ordeal experienced by family members of the German specialists was vividly described in the memoirs of Irmgard Gröttrup, the wife of a leading German rocket engineer:

    Could these be the same officers who not so long ago had tried, with a courteous smile, to make the reconstruction of our experimental station palatable to us? The same officers who, in response to our tentative inquiries, assured us that we should never be sent to Russia? Their grin was as friendly as ever. Indeed they even made a few promises: a flat much larger and much nicer than ours, a life without any restrictions, a life in a magnificent country, in a magnificent city amongst grand people. The only thing they couldn't promise was when we should see our own country again... At one point, simply to be free for a moment, I tried to get out through the back door. Impossible! The barrel of a gun- a broad face: "Nyet." (64)

    It took more than 24 hours for the train with German deportees to leave Bleicherode. Gröttrup's family of two adults and two children was assigned three slipping compartments, most other families had one compartment each. Separate cars carried furniture and other household items.

     


    Known data on the number of German rocket engineers in the USSR

    Western sources provided various numbers of German rocket scientists deported to the USSR. According to newly researched Russian data, the actual number of deported German rocket specialists reached 177 people, including 24 people with doctorate degrees, 17 people with master degrees, 71 people with engineering degrees and 27 workers.

    Total 136 people were employed by a newly created NII-88 research institute, including 111 people who were identified as heads of households, 18 people without any dependents or family members and seven workers had been family members of other German employees at NII-88. Total number of German citizens under NII-88's responsibility reached 495 people, including family members.
     


    After completion of tests in Kapustin Yar, Soviet authorities intensified transfer of German specialists from Podlipki to Gorodomlya. Irmgard Gröttrup made following entries in her diary dated by January 1948:

    Once again we are faced with the nightmare of moving. They are making a tremendous drive to transplant everyone to an island near the source of the Volga ... In spite of all protests, the first transport to the island in the Volga is already under way. Helmut has gone with them. He did not want the idea to get about that "It's the boss that's sending us away." Besides, his presence there is meant to boost their morale.

    According to the Russian data, as of January 1, 1948, the number of German specialists at Gorodomlya Island was 96 people, not counting family members, while a year later all but two out of 172 Germans working for the Ministry of Armaments were within the confines of the island.

    Helmut Gröttrup departed for Gorodomlya on February 20, 1948. His wife was allowed to stay in the suburbs of Moscow until June to care for a sick son. One of the last trains carrying Germans to Gorodomlya left on June 16, 1948. Dr. Umpfenbach remained one of the few Germans in Podlipki, before he was also removed to Gorodomlya. (64)

    End of German involvement at OKB-456

    From around mid-1948, Germans at OKB-456 were also denied active involvement in the development of a next generation engines. They were still receiving various assignments, however were no longer able to see a "big picture." According to German authors, Germans participated in the development of the KS-50 and ED-140 experimental engines, which could pave the way to the RD-110 engine -- a significantly scaled up version of the propulsion system from the German A-4 rocket. However all related information in the German source clearly came from a single Russian publication, (113) which in turn gives no credit to German engineers for the respective work. The time frame within KS-50 engine was developed and tested (1949) does not match the period, in which German specialists were actively involved into development work at OKB-456, according to the Russian sources. Therefore, the level of German contribution in the project is still open to interpretation.

    By the end of 1950, Germans who worked for OKB-456 were sent back to Germany.

     

    http://www.russianspaceweb.com/a4_team_moscow.html

    What was remarkable was how nicely Stalin (who was not known for treating anyone except with the utmost brutality) treated the German scientists. Yes he forcibly deported them but they were allowed to bring their families, furniture and household goods, rode on a passenger train and given better accommodations than most Russians when they arrived. I assure you that when my mother and her family were deported to Kazakhstan in 1940 (at the time they thought that this was beyond tragic but it was the best thing that ever happened to them, saved them from the Einsatzgruppen the next year) they were treated in almost the exact opposite way (except for the part where the NKVD surrounds your house and arrests you in the middle of the night – that was SOP).

    And when they were done with them they let them go back instead of shooting them in the back of the head as German spies.

    Read More
    • Replies: @syonredux

    What was remarkable was how nicely Stalin (who was not known for treating anyone except with the utmost brutality) treated the German scientists.
     
    I'm assuming that that was done because the men in question had to do top-tier work. You wouldn't want them bringing 90% of their game because of severe ill-treatment.

    And when they were done with them they let them go back instead of shooting them in the back of the head as German spies.
     
    That's the part that surprises me. We are talking about Stalin,after all, the man who had 111,091 ethnic Poles executed in 1937-38 on the off-chance that they might be spies.....


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Operation_of_the_NKVD_(1937%E2%80%9338)
  89. @Jack D
    What was remarkable was how nicely Stalin (who was not known for treating anyone except with the utmost brutality) treated the German scientists. Yes he forcibly deported them but they were allowed to bring their families, furniture and household goods, rode on a passenger train and given better accommodations than most Russians when they arrived. I assure you that when my mother and her family were deported to Kazakhstan in 1940 (at the time they thought that this was beyond tragic but it was the best thing that ever happened to them, saved them from the Einsatzgruppen the next year) they were treated in almost the exact opposite way (except for the part where the NKVD surrounds your house and arrests you in the middle of the night - that was SOP).

    And when they were done with them they let them go back instead of shooting them in the back of the head as German spies.

    What was remarkable was how nicely Stalin (who was not known for treating anyone except with the utmost brutality) treated the German scientists.

    I’m assuming that that was done because the men in question had to do top-tier work. You wouldn’t want them bringing 90% of their game because of severe ill-treatment.

    And when they were done with them they let them go back instead of shooting them in the back of the head as German spies.

    That’s the part that surprises me. We are talking about Stalin,after all, the man who had 111,091 ethnic Poles executed in 1937-38 on the off-chance that they might be spies…..

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Operation_of_the_NKVD_(1937%E2%80%9338)

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    • Replies: @Jack D
    Stalin didn't seem to care about Russian scientists being made comfortable to do their best work. A lot of Russian scientists in the Stalin era worked from special scientist prisons called sharashkas - just because you had been arrested as a spy and a wrecker didn't mean that your scientific service to the state could stop. Korolev's story was typical:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergei_Korolev#Imprisonment

    Although conditions in the shrashkas were prison like, they were a big improvement over a gold mine in the Arctic where men would drop like flies.

    Also Tupolev:

    http://russianhistoryblog.org/2011/03/the-sharashka-phenomenon/
  90. @syonredux

    I have no problem accepting that the Germans were ahead of us technologically.
     
    In some areas (e.g., rockets) they were ahead; in other areas (e.g., radar) they were behind.

    Even in ideology, Henry Ford’s anti-Semitic thinking was a major influence on Hitler.

     

    That's a vast exaggeration. Hitler's anti-Jewish weltanschauung was already firmly in place by the time (1922) The International Jew was translated into German.

    It still strikes me as insane that Hitler thought that he could beat the Americans AND the Russians AND the British all at once.
     
    That's what happens when you listen to too much opera....

    Kidding aside, no one's really been able to figure out why Hitler unilaterally declared war on the USA. Heck, he didn't even get the Japanese (as a quid pro quo) to agree to declare war on the USSR.

    Kidding aside, no one’s really been able to figure out why Hitler unilaterally declared war on the USA. Heck, he didn’t even get the Japanese (as a quid pro quo) to agree to declare war on the USSR.

    If his physician’s records are accurate, the man was a walking pharmacy:

    Morell kept a medical diary of the drugs, tonics, vitamins and other substances he administered to Hitler, usually by injection (up to 20 times per day) or in pill form. Most were commercial preparations, some were Morell’s own mixes. Since some of these compounds[citation needed] are considered toxic, historians have speculated that Morell inadvertently contributed to Hitler’s deteriorating health. The fragmentary list (below) of some 74 substances (in 28 different mixtures)[9] administered to Hitler include psychoactive drugs such as heroin as well as commercial poisons. Among the compounds, in alphabetical order, were:[5]

    Atropa belladonna (2–4 pills with every meal in Koster’s Antigaspills,[10] compound containing strychnine, subject of investigation) [11]
    atropine (extract of seminal vesicles) [10]
    Brom-Nervacit (bromide, since August 1941 a spoonful almost every night, to counteract stimulation from methamphetamine and permit sleep)[5]
    caffeine
    chamomile
    cocaine and adrenaline (via eyedrops) [12]
    E. coli [13]
    enzymes
    Eukodal or Eukodol (trade name for oxycodone)[14]
    Eupaverinum (papaverine, antispasmotic)[5]
    Glyconorm (metformin) [5]
    Methamphetamine (as Pervitin and Vitamultin)[5][10]
    morphine
    Mutaflor (pills prescribed to Hitler for flatulence in 1936, the first unorthodox drug treatment from Morell; bacteria extracted from human faeces, see: E. coli)[13]
    oxedrine tartrate
    potassium bromide
    prophenazone (a derivative of Phenazone)
    proteins and lipids derived from animal tissues and fats
    sodium barbitone
    strychnine[11]
    sulfonamide
    testosterone
    vitamins

    An almost complete listing of the drugs used by Morell, wrote historian Hugh Trevor-Roper, was compiled after the war from his own meticulous daily records unlikely to have been exaggerated.[9]

    By April 1945, Hitler was taking 28 different pills a day, along with numerous injections (including many of glucose) every few hours and intravenous injections of methamphetamine almost every day.[citation needed] The personal notes of Morell, describe how he treated Hitler over the years, including notations such as, “injection as always”, and, “Eukodal”, which is a strong opiate equivalent of Oxycodone.[14]

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    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Hitler liked war.

    His four years of brave service in WWI gave his life meaning, but Germany's shockingly sudden defeat was psychologically crushing to him.

    To him, WWII was a giant Do-Over of WWI so Germany could win this time.

  91. @Whoever

    It was not like the US didn’t have a larger and more successful aviation industry than Germany
     
    This can't be emphasized enough. Most of the technological innovations in the development of the airplane, from the turn-and-bank indicator to the Fowler flap, were American, and in NACA we had a research organization second to none.
    The whole Operation Paper Clip episode reminds me of how at the beginning of the war, the government pushed our industry to produce British stuff. A well-known example is how Emerson Electronics, then headed by Stuart Symington, was ordered to manufacture a British gun turret, instead of just designing and manufacturing one. But the government wanted it with .50 cal. rather than .303 cal. The result was a fiasco that resulted in Symington giving the factory to the government and refusing to do war work and a Truman Committee investigation. Once he was able to get clear of the stupid government infatuation with the foreign, he was able to make some jolly good gun turrets.
    Another example is the government wanting the AAF to adopt the Spitfire and have it manufactured in the US. Brig. Gen. Ben Kelsey, chief of the Army's Fighter Project Branch at the time, successfully defeated that, with a damning indictment of just about every aspect of that airplane.
    Unfortunately he was not able to prevent the production of the mechanically supercharged Merlin engine by Packard and it's adoption in the P-51, which he thought was a major mistake, the exhaust-gas-driven turbo-supercharged Allison being by far the better choice.
    As far as ballistic rockets and all of that, the Navy developed plans to orbit weather and photo recon satellites in 1944. They would make one orbit, flying over Japan, snap pictures, and return to earth via parachute. No Nazi scientists were involved.
    I read an article, it may have been an excerpt from a book, by a man who worked on the Jupiter C project, in which he wrote that the inclusion of the German scientists just delayed things and caused resentment and friction because people who had been working various engineering projects for years, had a lot of success, and were in senior positions and expected to run the show were told, no, you take orders from these Heil Hitler boys. Some of the Jewish guys, especially, were a little peeved.

    My impression is that the Germans were too creative and futuristic in their R&D in the middle of WWII, coming up with, say, a rocket plane, which turned out to be a dead-end. Heck, they were working on an electric rail gun, which the US Navy is still working on today.

    Hitler was into war-winning super weapons, which encouraged expensive futurist systems like the V2.

    The Americans did a better job of building a whole bunch of units of leading edge but not bleeding edge stuff like the P-51. The P-51 was obsolete for dogfighting by the Korean War because of jets, but it was plenty good, especially in vast numbers, in 1944-45.

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    • Replies: @Olorin
    Which leads to some interesting HBD hypotheses about societies with higher and lower mean IQs...and the technological solutions to particular problems they tend to generate. Where those are pitched.

    The US's strength has always been a robust middle at a solidly high mean (of regression).

    The Germans likely had a fatter or more robust or more creative smart fraction, and may still (genomically speaking).

    Just thinking out loud here, based on discussions we've had around this here dining table.
    , @syonredux

    My impression is that the Germans were too creative and futuristic in their R&D in the middle of WWII, coming up with, say, a rocket plane, which turned out to be a dead-end. Heck, they were working on an electric rail gun, which the US Navy is still working on today.

    Hitler was into war-winning super weapons, which encouraged expensive futurist systems like the V2.

    The Americans did a better job of building a whole bunch of units of leading edge but not bleeding edge stuff like the P-51. The P-51 was obsolete for dogfighting by the Korean War because of jets, but it was plenty good, especially in vast numbers, in 1944-45.
     
    It rather reminds me of Arthur C Clarke's short story, "Superiority":

    Superiority" is a science fiction short story by Arthur C. Clarke, first published in 1951. It depicts an arms race, and shows how the side which is more technologically advanced can be defeated, despite its apparent superiority, because of its own organizational flaws and its willingness to discard old technology without having fully perfected the new. Meanwhile, the enemy steadily built up a far larger arsenal of weapons that while more primitive were also more reliable. The story was at one point required reading for an industrial design course at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.
     
    It can be read here:


    http://www.mayofamily.com/RLM/txt_Clarke_Superiority.html
    , @The most deplorable one

    My impression is that the Germans were too creative and futuristic in their R&D in the middle of WWII, coming up with, say, a rocket plane, which turned out to be a dead-end. Heck, they were working on an electric rail gun, which the US Navy is still working on today.
     
    The truth is, you don't win the war with the weapons you are building, you win it with the weapons you already have.

    When the Germans went up against the Soviets in 1941 the Soviets had superior tanks and more of them (well, at least the T34/76 and the KV-1 and KV-2) and the Germans had long supply lines and made a number of mistakes, but even then, the Germans almost won.

    It is, however, interesting that both the USSR and the USA made good use of the technical strides the Germans achieved.
    , @Whoever

    My impression is that the Germans were too creative and futuristic in their R&D in the middle of WWII, coming up with, say, a rocket plane
     
    And yet...one of the most urgent needs of the Luftwaffe for homeland air defense -- and one repeatedly requested -- was an interceptor with a minimum four-hour flight duration. The Me-109, Germany's mainstay fighter, had a flight duration of only 70 minutes. That was barely enough time to climb to altitude, intercept, make one pass and get back home -- and hope the intercept wasn't directed to a decoy formation.
    Why didn't the Germans direct their genius, such as it may have been, to practical solutions to practical problems?
  92. @Johann Ricke

    Kidding aside, no one's really been able to figure out why Hitler unilaterally declared war on the USA. Heck, he didn't even get the Japanese (as a quid pro quo) to agree to declare war on the USSR.
     
    If his physician's records are accurate, the man was a walking pharmacy:

    Morell kept a medical diary of the drugs, tonics, vitamins and other substances he administered to Hitler, usually by injection (up to 20 times per day) or in pill form. Most were commercial preparations, some were Morell's own mixes. Since some of these compounds[citation needed] are considered toxic, historians have speculated that Morell inadvertently contributed to Hitler's deteriorating health. The fragmentary list (below) of some 74 substances (in 28 different mixtures)[9] administered to Hitler include psychoactive drugs such as heroin as well as commercial poisons. Among the compounds, in alphabetical order, were:[5]

    Atropa belladonna (2–4 pills with every meal in Koster's Antigaspills,[10] compound containing strychnine, subject of investigation) [11]
    atropine (extract of seminal vesicles) [10]
    Brom-Nervacit (bromide, since August 1941 a spoonful almost every night, to counteract stimulation from methamphetamine and permit sleep)[5]
    caffeine
    chamomile
    cocaine and adrenaline (via eyedrops) [12]
    E. coli [13]
    enzymes
    Eukodal or Eukodol (trade name for oxycodone)[14]
    Eupaverinum (papaverine, antispasmotic)[5]
    Glyconorm (metformin) [5]
    Methamphetamine (as Pervitin and Vitamultin)[5][10]
    morphine
    Mutaflor (pills prescribed to Hitler for flatulence in 1936, the first unorthodox drug treatment from Morell; bacteria extracted from human faeces, see: E. coli)[13]
    oxedrine tartrate
    potassium bromide
    prophenazone (a derivative of Phenazone)
    proteins and lipids derived from animal tissues and fats
    sodium barbitone
    strychnine[11]
    sulfonamide
    testosterone
    vitamins

    An almost complete listing of the drugs used by Morell, wrote historian Hugh Trevor-Roper, was compiled after the war from his own meticulous daily records unlikely to have been exaggerated.[9]

    By April 1945, Hitler was taking 28 different pills a day, along with numerous injections (including many of glucose) every few hours and intravenous injections of methamphetamine almost every day.[citation needed] The personal notes of Morell, describe how he treated Hitler over the years, including notations such as, "injection as always", and, "Eukodal", which is a strong opiate equivalent of Oxycodone.[14]
     

    Hitler liked war.

    His four years of brave service in WWI gave his life meaning, but Germany’s shockingly sudden defeat was psychologically crushing to him.

    To him, WWII was a giant Do-Over of WWI so Germany could win this time.

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  93. @Whoever
    A lot of our technology was not headline-grabbing, gee-whiz stuff, but was very useful for getting the job done -- the K-14 gunsight, for example, which provided the range to the target and the correct lead to take.
    At the 1944 Joint Fighter Conference at NAS Patuxent River in 1944, it was concluded that this sight didn't improve the accuracy of expert shooters, but it did bring "people in the lower and middle brackets up as much as five or six times better than they had shot before."
    A lot of our effort was put into making the average or below-average performer better through technology, thus tail-warning radar to help the pilot whose situational awareness was not quite what it should be, IFF to help avoid misidentification of targets, hydraulically-assisted ailerons, dive brakes, g-suits, etc.
    As a participant at the Patuxent Conference said, "I think we in the aircraft game should be worrying about the people in the middle third or bottom half. We have to make better sights, better cockpit arrangements, easier planes to fly for those people. We don't have to worry about our top shot or our best pilot. He can get along with any rig."
    That seems to be the opposite of the way things were in the Luftwaffe, which quickly became divided into experten and targets.

    Fascinating.

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  94. @syonredux

    What was remarkable was how nicely Stalin (who was not known for treating anyone except with the utmost brutality) treated the German scientists.
     
    I'm assuming that that was done because the men in question had to do top-tier work. You wouldn't want them bringing 90% of their game because of severe ill-treatment.

    And when they were done with them they let them go back instead of shooting them in the back of the head as German spies.
     
    That's the part that surprises me. We are talking about Stalin,after all, the man who had 111,091 ethnic Poles executed in 1937-38 on the off-chance that they might be spies.....


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Operation_of_the_NKVD_(1937%E2%80%9338)

    Stalin didn’t seem to care about Russian scientists being made comfortable to do their best work. A lot of Russian scientists in the Stalin era worked from special scientist prisons called sharashkas – just because you had been arrested as a spy and a wrecker didn’t mean that your scientific service to the state could stop. Korolev’s story was typical:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergei_Korolev#Imprisonment

    Although conditions in the shrashkas were prison like, they were a big improvement over a gold mine in the Arctic where men would drop like flies.

    Also Tupolev:

    http://russianhistoryblog.org/2011/03/the-sharashka-phenomenon/

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  95. @Captain Tripps
    While both sides in WWII had comparative advantages in individual weapon systems, the bottom line is:

    1940 population comparison:
    Germany: 69,838,000
    Russia (Soviet Union): 196,716,000
    United States: 132,164,569

    Lesson: don't pick a fight with two near-peer countries who, combined, outnumber you 4 to 1. Or, to crib Napoleon, or Stalin, or Mao, or whomever, "quantity has a quality all its own".

    Corollary lesson: German martial spirit and engineering superiority can get you far, but never far enough.

    It is unlikely the USA would have gone to war with Germany when it did except for Hitler’s decision to declare war first on December 11, 1941 for no apparent good reason.

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  96. @Whoever
    A lot of our technology was not headline-grabbing, gee-whiz stuff, but was very useful for getting the job done -- the K-14 gunsight, for example, which provided the range to the target and the correct lead to take.
    At the 1944 Joint Fighter Conference at NAS Patuxent River in 1944, it was concluded that this sight didn't improve the accuracy of expert shooters, but it did bring "people in the lower and middle brackets up as much as five or six times better than they had shot before."
    A lot of our effort was put into making the average or below-average performer better through technology, thus tail-warning radar to help the pilot whose situational awareness was not quite what it should be, IFF to help avoid misidentification of targets, hydraulically-assisted ailerons, dive brakes, g-suits, etc.
    As a participant at the Patuxent Conference said, "I think we in the aircraft game should be worrying about the people in the middle third or bottom half. We have to make better sights, better cockpit arrangements, easier planes to fly for those people. We don't have to worry about our top shot or our best pilot. He can get along with any rig."
    That seems to be the opposite of the way things were in the Luftwaffe, which quickly became divided into experten and targets.

    Same is true of Japanese aviators. The training was rigorous and only the best graduated. Many were dead after Midway. The USA trained thousands of “good enough” pilots, just like they built thousands of “good enough” tanks.

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  97. @Millennial
    No joke, in middle school, high school, and college I was taught that the Japanese did indeed attack Pearl Harbor because of western racism.

    Japanese atrocities in China and elsewhere were blamed on European intellectual or cultural influence (usually Christianity or Prussian militarism).

    I remember one Chinese female professor who was absolutely convinced that the Katana-wielding Japanese soldiers rampaging through Nanking were, to a man, motivated by Darwinism.

    I remember one Chinese female professor who was absolutely convinced that the Katana-wielding Japanese soldiers rampaging through Nanking were, to a man, motivated by Darwinism.

    To a certain extent yes, The Japanese were the superior Asian race. Killing Chinese wasn’t real killing.

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  98. @Anonymous
    The people in charge now don't hate us. Trumpening is a new era. Illegals are going to be leaving en masse. Congress now talking about halving legal immigration.

    Congress now talking about halving legal immigration.

    Don’t hold you breath. I have been hearing for almost a decade through NumberUSA that some Republican Congressman was going to move mandatory E-Verify through the House. I think I still have the CIS link to the article where the Republican legislators brag to their Mexican counterparts how they include language to scuttle their own legislation.

    Some legislators had also mentioned to us (oftentimes laughing) how they had “defanged” or “gutted” anti-immigration bills and measures, by neglecting to fund this program or tabling that provision, or deleting the other measure, etc. “Yes, we passed that law, but it can’t work because we also…” was a usual comment to assuage the Mexican delegations.

    http://cis.org/Usurpation-Elites-People%27sWill

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  99. @bomag

    ...there was actually some tradition of persons of those nationalities being involved in what we would now call “terrorist” activities...
     
    Why has the immigration debate come down to just wanting to keep out the violent? It is completely acceptable to keep out the very nice. We should be able to populate the country with our own people; or just enjoy the pleasures of more elbow room one would get from having fewer people around.

    You have to take it one step at a time. Any suggestion that some people aren’t as good as others goes nowhere now.

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  100. @Twinkie
    To be fair to the Japanese immigrants to the U.S. and their children born here (unlike the Imperialist Japanese of that era), they did give us this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/442nd_Infantry_Regiment_(United_States)

    The 442nd Regimental Combat Team is an infantry regiment of the United States Army, part of the Army Reserve. The regiment was a fighting unit composed almost entirely of American soldiers of Japanese ancestry who fought in World War II. Most of the families of mainland Japanese Americans were confined to internment camps in the United States interior. Beginning in 1944, the regiment fought primarily in Europe during World War II,[2] in particular Italy, southern France, and Germany.

    The 442nd Regiment was the most decorated unit for its size and length of service in the history of American warfare.[3] The 4,000 men who initially made up the unit in April 1943 had to be replaced nearly 2.5 times. In total, about 14,000 men served, earning 9,486 Purple Hearts. The unit was awarded eight Presidential Unit Citations (five earned in one month).[4]:201 Twenty-one of its members were awarded Medals of Honor.[2] Its motto was "Go for Broke".
     

    And there were Japanese spies

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takeo_Yoshikawa

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    • Replies: @SPMoore8
    From the article you quote:

    While the Yoshikawa case appeared to retroactively justify the decision to intern Japanese Americans, he himself distrusted the Japanese-American community who in his mind were loyal to America over Japan.
  101. It was our fault, just like it will be Trump’s fault when Muslims who couldn’t get into the United States blow up the United States.

    Correct.

    This whole dollop of fear-threat-based mythic nonsense is the bolshie left’s theoxeny, Steve.

    John Taylor, from “Recognition scenes in the Odyssey and the gospels”:

    We meet here the widespread folktale theme (attested in many traditions) of a divine or royal visitor, testing people by coming among them in disguise…. Religion and hospitality are constantly linked…. In a world with no legal system, hotels or consulates, newly arrived strangers are vulnerable and so come under the special protection of Zeus. Every visitor has a claim on those to whom he comes, but the heightened vulnerability of a suppliant or beggar puts him particularly in need of divine protection, and makes inappropriate treatment correspondingly culpable…. Later poets and thinkers will make of [Zeus] a quasi-monotheist universal deity. It is plausible to see in this development a steady broadening of his role as the god of host and guest, and protector of the weak.

    Bolding mine.

    Taylor later discusses the climax of The Winter’s Tale, in which Leontes recognizes that the statue of his dead wife is in fact her living self.

    The scene evokes and enacts the ancient idea of a statue as the vehicle of epiphany.

    Epiphanic/anagnorisis-ic tatues like, oh, say, spiky-headed bronze French ladies either buried to the bosom in sand…or standing tall and redressed in burqas…?

    For Taylor’s essay see:

    The Bible and Hellenism: Greek Influence on Jewish and Early Christian Literature
    eds. Thomas L. Thompson, Philippe Wajdenbaum, Routledge, 2014

    My point is that it’s something older than 20th c. bolshevism being reached back to, in the construction of these open borders myths….

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    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    But ancient customs of hospitality toward guests were all based on the assumption that the guest would, eventually, leave.
  102. @Whoever

    It was not like the US didn’t have a larger and more successful aviation industry than Germany
     
    This can't be emphasized enough. Most of the technological innovations in the development of the airplane, from the turn-and-bank indicator to the Fowler flap, were American, and in NACA we had a research organization second to none.
    The whole Operation Paper Clip episode reminds me of how at the beginning of the war, the government pushed our industry to produce British stuff. A well-known example is how Emerson Electronics, then headed by Stuart Symington, was ordered to manufacture a British gun turret, instead of just designing and manufacturing one. But the government wanted it with .50 cal. rather than .303 cal. The result was a fiasco that resulted in Symington giving the factory to the government and refusing to do war work and a Truman Committee investigation. Once he was able to get clear of the stupid government infatuation with the foreign, he was able to make some jolly good gun turrets.
    Another example is the government wanting the AAF to adopt the Spitfire and have it manufactured in the US. Brig. Gen. Ben Kelsey, chief of the Army's Fighter Project Branch at the time, successfully defeated that, with a damning indictment of just about every aspect of that airplane.
    Unfortunately he was not able to prevent the production of the mechanically supercharged Merlin engine by Packard and it's adoption in the P-51, which he thought was a major mistake, the exhaust-gas-driven turbo-supercharged Allison being by far the better choice.
    As far as ballistic rockets and all of that, the Navy developed plans to orbit weather and photo recon satellites in 1944. They would make one orbit, flying over Japan, snap pictures, and return to earth via parachute. No Nazi scientists were involved.
    I read an article, it may have been an excerpt from a book, by a man who worked on the Jupiter C project, in which he wrote that the inclusion of the German scientists just delayed things and caused resentment and friction because people who had been working various engineering projects for years, had a lot of success, and were in senior positions and expected to run the show were told, no, you take orders from these Heil Hitler boys. Some of the Jewish guys, especially, were a little peeved.

    Unfortunately he was not able to prevent the production of the mechanically supercharged Merlin engine by Packard and it’s adoption in the P-51, which he thought was a major mistake, the exhaust-gas-driven turbo-supercharged Allison being by far the better choice.

    I saw a documentary about a guy who rebuilt a few P-51s in England. In it they said the Allison engine had too low a flight envelope. The only problem with the Merlin was that is was finicky and needed constant maintenance. The guy in England fixed a lot of these problems and everybody who wants their Merlin rebuilt send them to him.

    The documentary is “Plane Resurrection”. Available on Netflix.

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    • Replies: @Whoever
    Thanks for the recommendation of the documentary. I will look it up.

    the Allison engine had too low a flight envelope.
     
    Okay, that's probably a reference to the single-stage, mechanically supercharged version of the Allison such as was used in the P-40 and P-51A, both designed originally for low-level close air support.
    What Kelsey wanted in the P-51 for high-altitude bomber escort was the exhaust-gas-driven turbo-supercharged version of the Allison -- which was originally designed for turbo use, as demonstrated in the XP-37. What he got was the Merlin with a two-stage mechanically-driven supercharger.
    That's an important difference when you realize that a reciprocating engine is just a very sophisticated air pump that burns fuel to produce power, and it is the amount of air processed by the engine that determines its power, not the amount of fuel it burns.
    An exhaust-gas driven turbo forcing air into the engine keeps the amount of air it can process constant no matter what the altitude. A mechanical supercharger delivers a decreasing amount of air to the engine as altitude increases until the next stage (like a gear in a car's transmission) kicks in and increases air flow again until increasing altitude takes its toll on air inflow.
    So if we look at a graph of the power delivered by the Packard Merlin in a P-51D, we see it delivers 1,500 horsepower at sea level. This climbs to 1,600 horsepower at 8,000 feet and then begins to decline to 1,300 horsepower at 14,000 feet, where the second stage of the supercharger kicks in and power climbs back to 1,375 horsepower at 22,000 feet, after which it begins a steady decline, dropping to 900 horsepower at 32,000 feet.
    We can get an idea of how a turbo-Allison P-51 would have performed by looking at a similar graph for the P-38L, which was powered by that engine type. The chart shows 1,450 horsepower at sea level, 1,450 horsepower at 8,000 feet, 1,450 horsepower at 14,000 feet, 1,450 horsepower at 22,000 feet and 1,450 horsepower at 32,000 feet. That's the turbo advantage, and that's what Kelsey wanted for the P-51.
    The two-stage supercharger version of the Merlin didn't become available until midway in the war. Early Spitfires and other aircraft used the single-stage version and their performance began to suffer from 8,000 feet upwards, the heavier aircraft suffering more of course, and lighter ones like the Spitfire less. The P-40F was, against the USAAF's objections, equipped with the Merlin single-stage engine and performed no better than the P-40s with the non-turbo Allison.

    the Merlin was that is was finicky and needed constant maintenance.
     
    The P-40F showcased one of the major short-comings of the Merlin -- it was just not suitable for use outside northern Europe, suffering damage from over-heating, dust ingestion and all manner of ills. The F was emergency-retrofitted with Allisons, becoming the P-40R.
    The Merlin required 1.3 hours of maintenance for every hour of flight time. The Allison one hour of maintenance for every 2.3 hours of flight time.
    But beyond these and a number of other factors I could mention was the sheer trouble of fitting the Merlin to the P-51 -- it required thousands of man hours of engineering work; in fact double the amount that the design of the airplane had entailed. And beyond that was the trouble of establishing manufacturing facilities and respec'ing and upgrading the engine to US standards.
    To give you an example of just one aspect of what was needed, the USAAF performed a 150-hour type test on a British-made Merlin at Wright Field in August, 1941. The test consisted of calibration, torsional vibration checks, endurance running, and a 20-hour penalty run -- which ended up not being possible.
    At the tear-down inspection after the initial 150 hours, it was found that three pistons were cracked, chrome plating on the cam follower had cracked and chipped off, the impeller shaft had worn enough to allow the impeller to engage the supercharger case, copper rivets in the clutch plates of both high-gear supercharger clutches had sheared off, and the spline coupling for the supercharger drive had cracked.
    The nightmare to get this thing to work and be mass-produced had begun.
    I could write more, a lot more....
  103. @MarkinLA
    And there were Japanese spies

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takeo_Yoshikawa

    From the article you quote:

    While the Yoshikawa case appeared to retroactively justify the decision to intern Japanese Americans, he himself distrusted the Japanese-American community who in his mind were loyal to America over Japan.

    Read More
    • Replies: @MarkinLA
    I am not saying I agree with the internment or that it had a solid foundation only that there was a belief that the Japanese may not be sufficiently loyal to the US given their recent arrival.

    Yes, I know there were people who wanted to get their hands on their farmland cheap but to people in the midwest who had no knowledge of the Japanese and the Japanese history of starting wars with sneak attacks (they started the Russo-Japanese war the same way) it probably didn't take much for people to distrust anybody Japanese.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Japanese_War
  104. @SPMoore8
    From the article you quote:

    While the Yoshikawa case appeared to retroactively justify the decision to intern Japanese Americans, he himself distrusted the Japanese-American community who in his mind were loyal to America over Japan.

    I am not saying I agree with the internment or that it had a solid foundation only that there was a belief that the Japanese may not be sufficiently loyal to the US given their recent arrival.

    Yes, I know there were people who wanted to get their hands on their farmland cheap but to people in the midwest who had no knowledge of the Japanese and the Japanese history of starting wars with sneak attacks (they started the Russo-Japanese war the same way) it probably didn’t take much for people to distrust anybody Japanese.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Japanese_War

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    The Spielberg comedy "1941," made with input from Milius, Zemeckis, and Gale, doesn't really work, but it does get across just how unsurprisingly hysterical people were right after Pearl Harbor.

    The Left was particularly unhinged about the Fascist Menace, so the big push for internment came from liberals like FDR and Earl Warren, with some resistance from Robert Taft and J. Edgar Hoover.

    , @Twinkie
    1. Yoshikawa was not a Japanese-American, but a Japanese national and government agent.

    2. And about the Japanese-Americans:

    According to Yoshikawa, although some 160,000 persons of Japanese ancestry lived in Hawaii at that time, he never made use of this resource in his espionage activities. He and Seki agreed that, while Hawaii should be the "easiest place" to carry out such work in view of the large Japanese population, both looked at the locals with disdain. "[T]hose men of influence and character who might have assisted me in my secret mission were unanimously uncooperative...."[5] [Boldface mine.]
     
    Although there may have been a few people of Japanese ancestry who were traitors, they were enormously outnumbered by utterly loyal Americans of Japanese ancestry, even those whose families were interned. It's not chance or happenstance that the 442nd RCT was the most highly decorated unit of its size in all of American history. Those men were patriots and they earned that moniker with valor and blood.
  105. @Steve Sailer
    My impression is that the Germans were too creative and futuristic in their R&D in the middle of WWII, coming up with, say, a rocket plane, which turned out to be a dead-end. Heck, they were working on an electric rail gun, which the US Navy is still working on today.

    Hitler was into war-winning super weapons, which encouraged expensive futurist systems like the V2.

    The Americans did a better job of building a whole bunch of units of leading edge but not bleeding edge stuff like the P-51. The P-51 was obsolete for dogfighting by the Korean War because of jets, but it was plenty good, especially in vast numbers, in 1944-45.

    Which leads to some interesting HBD hypotheses about societies with higher and lower mean IQs…and the technological solutions to particular problems they tend to generate. Where those are pitched.

    The US’s strength has always been a robust middle at a solidly high mean (of regression).

    The Germans likely had a fatter or more robust or more creative smart fraction, and may still (genomically speaking).

    Just thinking out loud here, based on discussions we’ve had around this here dining table.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Before, say, WWI, the U.S. was pretty thinly represented at the super highest intellectual levels. Americans didn't win many Nobel Prizes for the first 25 or so years of the 20th Century.

    Franklin, for example, was a world class physicist and social scientist for about a decade in the middle of his long, busy life, but he spent his younger years getting rich and his older years on statesmanship. Plus, his lack of formal education and high end math limited how far he could go in science.

  106. @MarkinLA
    I am not saying I agree with the internment or that it had a solid foundation only that there was a belief that the Japanese may not be sufficiently loyal to the US given their recent arrival.

    Yes, I know there were people who wanted to get their hands on their farmland cheap but to people in the midwest who had no knowledge of the Japanese and the Japanese history of starting wars with sneak attacks (they started the Russo-Japanese war the same way) it probably didn't take much for people to distrust anybody Japanese.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Japanese_War

    The Spielberg comedy “1941,” made with input from Milius, Zemeckis, and Gale, doesn’t really work, but it does get across just how unsurprisingly hysterical people were right after Pearl Harbor.

    The Left was particularly unhinged about the Fascist Menace, so the big push for internment came from liberals like FDR and Earl Warren, with some resistance from Robert Taft and J. Edgar Hoover.

    Read More
  107. @Olorin
    Which leads to some interesting HBD hypotheses about societies with higher and lower mean IQs...and the technological solutions to particular problems they tend to generate. Where those are pitched.

    The US's strength has always been a robust middle at a solidly high mean (of regression).

    The Germans likely had a fatter or more robust or more creative smart fraction, and may still (genomically speaking).

    Just thinking out loud here, based on discussions we've had around this here dining table.

    Before, say, WWI, the U.S. was pretty thinly represented at the super highest intellectual levels. Americans didn’t win many Nobel Prizes for the first 25 or so years of the 20th Century.

    Franklin, for example, was a world class physicist and social scientist for about a decade in the middle of his long, busy life, but he spent his younger years getting rich and his older years on statesmanship. Plus, his lack of formal education and high end math limited how far he could go in science.

    Read More
    • Replies: @syonredux

    Before, say, WWI, the U.S. was pretty thinly represented at the super highest intellectual levels. Americans didn’t win many Nobel Prizes for the first 25 or so years of the 20th Century.
     
    In terms of science, 19th century Anglo-America's strong point was technology: the revolver, the Morse-Vail telegraph, the phonograph, the machine gun, the tabulating machine, the spectroheliograph, the milling machine, vulcanizing rubber, the electrical relay, ether-based anesthesia, the carbon microphone, etc

    In terms of theoretical science, 19th century Anglo-America was fairly weak....although we did have the phenomenally accomplished Josiah Willard Gibbs....
  108. @Bill
    Yeah, if we had not dropped the bomb, we would have, instead, done something even more grotesquely immoral. Therefore, dropping the bomb was a good thing.

    I’ll bite. Complete your Mad Lib for me:

    Instead of immorally defeating the Japanese with minimal loss of life, the U.S.A. should have ___________.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Bill
    defeated the Japanese with no further loss of life.
  109. @Autochthon
    And who can forget how Roosevelt goaded the Japanese into raping and sodomising ten-year-old Chinese girls, cannibalising Australians, etc. Why, it's a wonder the long suffering, put-upon Japanese exercised as much restraint as they did for so long, and even then reacted in such measured ways, what with the nasty Americans maintaining coaling stations in Guam and such: the horror!

    When I was in knee-pants, my father told many a tale of how, when the magnanimous Japanese liberated the Philippines from the nasty American imperialists, the newly-independent nation had dancing in the streets for days. Yet mendacious Western propaganda would have you believe the U.S.A. was in the process of withdrawing from the Philippines sua sponte, and only remained at the natives' urging to defend against an imminent Japanese invasion. The propaganda even goes so far as to suggest the Americans did in fact leave the Philippines to govern themselves shortly after the Second World War ended.

    Even the natives were brainwashed, erecting and maintaining reverently to this very day monumental statues of Douglas MacArthur in gratitude. Real Stockholm syndrome stuff, huh?

    I leave as an exercise to the reader to ask any elderly Filipino or Micronesian to assess the relative merits of Japanese and Americans during the 1940s.

    This is how little they think of MacArthur – they didn’t want to waste any dry land on his memorial or built a nice pedestal. Instead they put it directly on the ground below the high tide line on a beach:

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e6/MacArthur_Landing_Site.JPG

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  110. @Randal

    Talk about cherry-picking facts to support an unsupportable argument.
    One example is Atkinson’s claim of immigration restriction causing the attack on Pearl Harbor, editing out Japan’s primitive, savage actions against China and other countries, that had a direct affect on the attitude of this country at the time, as well as their pronounced resistance of assimilating into American culture. Most Japanese, before the war, sent their children abroad to Japanese Universities prior to the war, because they believed they were superior. Japanese were about as racist as your average KKK member. Race pride was certainly a significant factor in the Japanese psyche.
     
    Well if you want a proper description of the events that led up to the Japanese decision to wage a preventive "Bush doctrine" war against the US, commencing with an attack on Pearl Harbor, the best brief summary is the inimitable Pat Buchanan's essay on the topic:

    Why Did Japan Attack Us?

    It ain't rocket science - push people and they will, in the end, push back, if they've anything about them.

    But for sure it had nothing whatsoever to do with immigration restrictions and Atkinson is a misleading propagandist.

    Eating prisoner’s of war is just not the American way.
     
    No, the American way, as officially practiced by the US government, is gratuitous "rectal feeding".

    The American Way

    Well if you want a proper description of the events that led up to the Japanese decision to wage a preventive “Bush doctrine” war against the US, commencing with an attack on Pearl Harbor, the best brief summary is the inimitable Pat Buchanan’s essay on the topic:

    Why Did Japan Attack Us?

    It ain’t rocket science – push people and they will, in the end, push back, if they’ve anything about them.

    Yeah, all the USA had to do was agree to allow the Japanese to dominate East Asia:

    The Three Alls Policy (Chinese: 三光政策; pinyin: Sānguāng Zhèngcè, Japanese: 三光作戦 Sankō Sakusen) was a Japanese scorched earth policy adopted in China during World War II, the three “alls” being “kill all, burn all, loot all”[1] (Chinese: 殺光、燒光、搶光). This policy was designed as retaliation against the Chinese for the Communist-led Hundred Regiments Offensive in December 1940.[2] Contemporary Japanese documents referred to the policy as “The Burn to Ash Strategy”

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Alls_Policy

    The Nanking Massacre was an episode of mass murder and mass rape committed by Japanese troops against the residents of Nanjing (then spelled Nanking), then the capital of the Republic of China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. The massacre occurred over a period of six weeks starting on December 13, 1937, the day that the Japanese captured Nanjing. During this period, soldiers of the Imperial Japanese Army murdered Chinese civilians and disarmed combatants who numbered an estimated 40,000 to over 300,000,[7][8] and perpetrated widespread rape and looting

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_Massacre

    Unit 731 (Japanese: 731部隊 Hepburn: Nana-san-ichi Butai?) was a covert biological and chemical warfare research and development unit of the Imperial Japanese Army that undertook lethal human experimentation during the Second Sino-Japanese War (1937–1945) of World War II. It was responsible for some of the most notorious war crimes carried out by Japan. Unit 731 was based at the Pingfang district of Harbin, the largest city in the Japanese puppet state of Manchukuo (now Northeast China).
    It was officially known as the Epidemic Prevention and Water Purification Department of the Kwantung Army (関東軍防疫給水部本部 Kantōgun Bōeki Kyūsuibu Honbu?). Originally set up under the Kempeitai military police of the Empire of Japan, Unit 731 was taken over and commanded until the end of the war by General Shiro Ishii, an officer in the Kwantung Army. The facility itself was built between 1934 and 1939 and officially adopted the name “Unit 731″ in 1941.
    Some historians estimate that up to 250,000[1] men, women, and children[2][3]—from which at least 600 every year were provided by the Kempeitai[4]—were subjected to experimentation conducted by Unit 731 at the camp based in Pingfang alone, which does not include victims from other medical experimentation sites, such as Unit 100.[5]
    Unit 731 veterans of Japan attest that most of the victims they experimented on were Chinese[6] while a small percentage were Russian, Mongolian, Korean, and Allied POW’s.[7] Almost 70% of the victims who died in the Pingfang camp were Chinese, including both civilian and military.[8] Close to 30% of the victims were Russian.[9] Some others were South East Asians and Pacific Islanders, at the time colonies of the Empire of Japan, and a small number of Allied prisoners of war.[10] The unit received generous support from the Japanese government up to the end of the war in 1945.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731

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  111. @syonredux

    It still strikes me as insane that Hitler thought that he could beat the Americans AND the Russians AND the British all at once.

    It was supposed to be series, not parallel.

    Churchill was the spanner in the works.
     
    The UK was already at war when he became PM.

    Frankly, even if the British had stayed out of it ( a possibility that is somewhere in the neighborhood of Alien Space Bats showing up), I'm far from certain that Germany would have been able to defeat the USSR.

    The UK was already at war when he became PM.

    Beside the point. He was the leader of the war party since the mid-30s.

    Frankly, even if the British had stayed out of it ( a possibility that is somewhere in the neighborhood of Alien Space Bats showing up), I’m far from certain that Germany would have been able to defeat the USSR.

    Hess thought it far likelier than that. Germany may have even been counting (mistakenly, obviously) on White v. Red British assistance against Bolshevism.

    Read More
    • Replies: @syonredux

    The UK was already at war when he became PM.

    Beside the point. He was the leader of the war party since the mid-30s.
     
    Yeah, I know. The Churchill Cult. Even without Churchill, sentiment was building against Hitler.

    Hess thought it far likelier than that.
     
    Can't say that I have much faith in his military judgement.
  112. @Steve Sailer
    Before, say, WWI, the U.S. was pretty thinly represented at the super highest intellectual levels. Americans didn't win many Nobel Prizes for the first 25 or so years of the 20th Century.

    Franklin, for example, was a world class physicist and social scientist for about a decade in the middle of his long, busy life, but he spent his younger years getting rich and his older years on statesmanship. Plus, his lack of formal education and high end math limited how far he could go in science.

    Before, say, WWI, the U.S. was pretty thinly represented at the super highest intellectual levels. Americans didn’t win many Nobel Prizes for the first 25 or so years of the 20th Century.

    In terms of science, 19th century Anglo-America’s strong point was technology: the revolver, the Morse-Vail telegraph, the phonograph, the machine gun, the tabulating machine, the spectroheliograph, the milling machine, vulcanizing rubber, the electrical relay, ether-based anesthesia, the carbon microphone, etc

    In terms of theoretical science, 19th century Anglo-America was fairly weak….although we did have the phenomenally accomplished Josiah Willard Gibbs….

    Read More
  113. @Desiderius

    The UK was already at war when he became PM.

     

    Beside the point. He was the leader of the war party since the mid-30s.

    Frankly, even if the British had stayed out of it ( a possibility that is somewhere in the neighborhood of Alien Space Bats showing up), I’m far from certain that Germany would have been able to defeat the USSR.
     
    Hess thought it far likelier than that. Germany may have even been counting (mistakenly, obviously) on White v. Red British assistance against Bolshevism.

    The UK was already at war when he became PM.

    Beside the point. He was the leader of the war party since the mid-30s.

    Yeah, I know. The Churchill Cult. Even without Churchill, sentiment was building against Hitler.

    Hess thought it far likelier than that.

    Can’t say that I have much faith in his military judgement.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Desiderius

    Yeah, I know. The Churchill Cult. Even without Churchill, sentiment was building against Hitler.
     
    Whatever. Sentiment and $4.50 will get you a cup of coffee. Bloomsbury England was a threat to no one but handsome young boys.
  114. @Steve Sailer
    My impression is that the Germans were too creative and futuristic in their R&D in the middle of WWII, coming up with, say, a rocket plane, which turned out to be a dead-end. Heck, they were working on an electric rail gun, which the US Navy is still working on today.

    Hitler was into war-winning super weapons, which encouraged expensive futurist systems like the V2.

    The Americans did a better job of building a whole bunch of units of leading edge but not bleeding edge stuff like the P-51. The P-51 was obsolete for dogfighting by the Korean War because of jets, but it was plenty good, especially in vast numbers, in 1944-45.

    My impression is that the Germans were too creative and futuristic in their R&D in the middle of WWII, coming up with, say, a rocket plane, which turned out to be a dead-end. Heck, they were working on an electric rail gun, which the US Navy is still working on today.

    Hitler was into war-winning super weapons, which encouraged expensive futurist systems like the V2.

    The Americans did a better job of building a whole bunch of units of leading edge but not bleeding edge stuff like the P-51. The P-51 was obsolete for dogfighting by the Korean War because of jets, but it was plenty good, especially in vast numbers, in 1944-45.

    It rather reminds me of Arthur C Clarke’s short story, “Superiority”:

    Superiority” is a science fiction short story by Arthur C. Clarke, first published in 1951. It depicts an arms race, and shows how the side which is more technologically advanced can be defeated, despite its apparent superiority, because of its own organizational flaws and its willingness to discard old technology without having fully perfected the new. Meanwhile, the enemy steadily built up a far larger arsenal of weapons that while more primitive were also more reliable. The story was at one point required reading for an industrial design course at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.

    It can be read here:

    http://www.mayofamily.com/RLM/txt_Clarke_Superiority.html

    Read More
    • Replies: @The most deplorable one

    Superiority” is a science fiction short story by Arthur C. Clarke, first published in 1951. It depicts an arms race, and shows how the side which is more technologically advanced can be defeated, despite its apparent superiority, because of its own organizational flaws and its willingness to discard old technology without having fully perfected the new. Meanwhile, the enemy steadily built up a far larger arsenal of weapons that while more primitive were also more reliable. The story was at one point required reading for an industrial design course at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.
     
    This sounds like the Soviet (and subsequently, Russian) strategy.

    It seems the opposite to what the US has done now for quite a while, fielding ever more complex weapons that require high-IQ operators (ie, soldiers) along with other issues (eg, the M1 Abrams does not have an autoloader, so the loader has to manhandle those heavy shells) while at the same time, because of the immigration of large numbers of lower IQ people, the average IQ of available operators has been going down.
    , @MarkinLA
    Attributed to Stalin: "Quantity has a quality all its own".

    http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/795954-quantity-has-a-quality-all-its-own
  115. @Steve Sailer
    My impression is that the Germans were too creative and futuristic in their R&D in the middle of WWII, coming up with, say, a rocket plane, which turned out to be a dead-end. Heck, they were working on an electric rail gun, which the US Navy is still working on today.

    Hitler was into war-winning super weapons, which encouraged expensive futurist systems like the V2.

    The Americans did a better job of building a whole bunch of units of leading edge but not bleeding edge stuff like the P-51. The P-51 was obsolete for dogfighting by the Korean War because of jets, but it was plenty good, especially in vast numbers, in 1944-45.

    My impression is that the Germans were too creative and futuristic in their R&D in the middle of WWII, coming up with, say, a rocket plane, which turned out to be a dead-end. Heck, they were working on an electric rail gun, which the US Navy is still working on today.

    The truth is, you don’t win the war with the weapons you are building, you win it with the weapons you already have.

    When the Germans went up against the Soviets in 1941 the Soviets had superior tanks and more of them (well, at least the T34/76 and the KV-1 and KV-2) and the Germans had long supply lines and made a number of mistakes, but even then, the Germans almost won.

    It is, however, interesting that both the USSR and the USA made good use of the technical strides the Germans achieved.

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  116. @syonredux

    I have no problem accepting that the Germans were ahead of us technologically.
     
    In some areas (e.g., rockets) they were ahead; in other areas (e.g., radar) they were behind.

    Even in ideology, Henry Ford’s anti-Semitic thinking was a major influence on Hitler.

     

    That's a vast exaggeration. Hitler's anti-Jewish weltanschauung was already firmly in place by the time (1922) The International Jew was translated into German.

    It still strikes me as insane that Hitler thought that he could beat the Americans AND the Russians AND the British all at once.
     
    That's what happens when you listen to too much opera....

    Kidding aside, no one's really been able to figure out why Hitler unilaterally declared war on the USA. Heck, he didn't even get the Japanese (as a quid pro quo) to agree to declare war on the USSR.

    Many years ago while I was browsing a volume of Stalin’s speeches in Russian — how’s that for a lede — I came across one from (IIRC) early December, 1941, and he was talking about how many trucks the US was sending to the USSR to defeat the Hitlerites.

    Ever since then, I have felt that Hitler’s declaration of war against the US was in fact a consequence of the material aid the US was already giving to the Allies, plus the fact that the offensive against Moscow had petered out just a few days earlier (December 5.)

    As a short term tactic, it theoretically could have worked (but Hitler would never have defeated Russia.) The U Boats sank a lot of tonnage in 1942.

    But it was just another Hitler gamble that failed.

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    • Replies: @MarkinLA
    We were already at war with Germany. US destroyers were doing escort duty out to about 1/3 of the way across the Atlantic and I think one U-boat had been attacked. We were doing Lend-Lease and we had already given the Brits 50 old destroyers in exchange for some leases to British held islands like that one in the Indian Ocean we bombed Iraq from in the first war.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destroyers_for_Bases_Agreement

    , @Whoever

    I have felt that Hitler’s declaration of war against the US was in fact a consequence of the material aid the US was already giving to the Allies
     
    It had to have had a big influence. Apparently, it was quite a shock to the Germans when British Hurricane fighters captured during the Battle of France were discovered to have high-octane green gasoline in their fuel tanks rather than standard British low-octane blue gasoline. At that time, the only place in the world where that green avgas was produced was the Esso refinery in Baton Rouge, Louisiana, USA.
    The US had begun supplying green gas to Britain early in 1940 as the result of intense lobbying. That was a violation of the Neutrality Acts as originally voted into law in the 1930s. The first higher-compression engines this fuel allowed began to reach RAF units in March of that year.
    When the Germans discovered American fuel in British airplanes, they knew that the US was not a neutral and war with the United States was inevitable.
  117. @syonredux

    My impression is that the Germans were too creative and futuristic in their R&D in the middle of WWII, coming up with, say, a rocket plane, which turned out to be a dead-end. Heck, they were working on an electric rail gun, which the US Navy is still working on today.

    Hitler was into war-winning super weapons, which encouraged expensive futurist systems like the V2.

    The Americans did a better job of building a whole bunch of units of leading edge but not bleeding edge stuff like the P-51. The P-51 was obsolete for dogfighting by the Korean War because of jets, but it was plenty good, especially in vast numbers, in 1944-45.
     
    It rather reminds me of Arthur C Clarke's short story, "Superiority":

    Superiority" is a science fiction short story by Arthur C. Clarke, first published in 1951. It depicts an arms race, and shows how the side which is more technologically advanced can be defeated, despite its apparent superiority, because of its own organizational flaws and its willingness to discard old technology without having fully perfected the new. Meanwhile, the enemy steadily built up a far larger arsenal of weapons that while more primitive were also more reliable. The story was at one point required reading for an industrial design course at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.
     
    It can be read here:


    http://www.mayofamily.com/RLM/txt_Clarke_Superiority.html

    Superiority” is a science fiction short story by Arthur C. Clarke, first published in 1951. It depicts an arms race, and shows how the side which is more technologically advanced can be defeated, despite its apparent superiority, because of its own organizational flaws and its willingness to discard old technology without having fully perfected the new. Meanwhile, the enemy steadily built up a far larger arsenal of weapons that while more primitive were also more reliable. The story was at one point required reading for an industrial design course at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.

    This sounds like the Soviet (and subsequently, Russian) strategy.

    It seems the opposite to what the US has done now for quite a while, fielding ever more complex weapons that require high-IQ operators (ie, soldiers) along with other issues (eg, the M1 Abrams does not have an autoloader, so the loader has to manhandle those heavy shells) while at the same time, because of the immigration of large numbers of lower IQ people, the average IQ of available operators has been going down.

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  118. Anon says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    I think the big difference between THEN and NOW is the way we deal with the elites.

    The great era of reform and progress happened when the Ruling Elites, the Wasps, came under scrutiny and criticism, mostly pointedly from Jews but also from ethnics, Catholics, and blacks.

    So, The Power came under pressure to reform and make things fairer for all citizens. And The Power back then didn’t shield its power or deny its power. Wasps fully admitted and even flaunted their power, and their prestige depended on how they managed this power. They knew they had the fire and were the tenders of the flames.

    In contrast, with the rise of the Jewish Elites, that element of speaking truth to power has been perverted by various diversionary tactics.

    The narrative continues to be about ‘white privilege’ — and yes, whites still have lots of power — , but the main power is now held by Jews. However, Jews will not admit to the extent of their power and leverage, and all groups are afraid to pressure Jews to be accountable to their power.

    Also, if Jews rule America, they effectively rule the world since US is the lone superpower.

    So, we have disasters in finance, foreign policy, media, and academia, but nothing crucial is placed on the table for discussion. Instead, due to Jewish control of media and academia, we are still fixated on stuff like Aryan Nazi rapists at UVA or Putin as puppet-master of Trump. Even Trump, though attacked tirelessly by the Jewish elites, pretends that the biggest threat to America is a handful of random of Muslim terrorists.

    [MORE]

    Also, because Jews find Negroes and homos useful as allies against White/Christian power, all their nastiness and problems are hardly discussed. So, let’s not talk about black crime and mayhem. Let’s not discuss the baleful influence of homos on our culture that is now an open puss of degeneracy, vanity, and indulgence.

    If we are to have another golden age of reform and rising accountability, we need to deal with The Power. It is essentially Jewish and Globalist. It will be good for everyone. It’s like a doctor has to be honest with his patient if he is to really treat the disease. There are lots of good things about Jewish power, but when all Jews circle the wagons and pretend to be underdogs even as overdogs, things will just get worse.

    Immigration Issue just obfuscates the discussion we must have about The Power because increased Diversity serves as Diversion from Crisis of The Power. It just creates tensions among diverse goyim that are manipulated by the GLOB that sits on top.

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  119. @MarkinLA
    Unfortunately he was not able to prevent the production of the mechanically supercharged Merlin engine by Packard and it’s adoption in the P-51, which he thought was a major mistake, the exhaust-gas-driven turbo-supercharged Allison being by far the better choice.

    I saw a documentary about a guy who rebuilt a few P-51s in England. In it they said the Allison engine had too low a flight envelope. The only problem with the Merlin was that is was finicky and needed constant maintenance. The guy in England fixed a lot of these problems and everybody who wants their Merlin rebuilt send them to him.

    The documentary is "Plane Resurrection". Available on Netflix.

    Thanks for the recommendation of the documentary. I will look it up.

    the Allison engine had too low a flight envelope.

    Okay, that’s probably a reference to the single-stage, mechanically supercharged version of the Allison such as was used in the P-40 and P-51A, both designed originally for low-level close air support.
    What Kelsey wanted in the P-51 for high-altitude bomber escort was the exhaust-gas-driven turbo-supercharged version of the Allison — which was originally designed for turbo use, as demonstrated in the XP-37. What he got was the Merlin with a two-stage mechanically-driven supercharger.
    That’s an important difference when you realize that a reciprocating engine is just a very sophisticated air pump that burns fuel to produce power, and it is the amount of air processed by the engine that determines its power, not the amount of fuel it burns.
    An exhaust-gas driven turbo forcing air into the engine keeps the amount of air it can process constant no matter what the altitude. A mechanical supercharger delivers a decreasing amount of air to the engine as altitude increases until the next stage (like a gear in a car’s transmission) kicks in and increases air flow again until increasing altitude takes its toll on air inflow.
    So if we look at a graph of the power delivered by the Packard Merlin in a P-51D, we see it delivers 1,500 horsepower at sea level. This climbs to 1,600 horsepower at 8,000 feet and then begins to decline to 1,300 horsepower at 14,000 feet, where the second stage of the supercharger kicks in and power climbs back to 1,375 horsepower at 22,000 feet, after which it begins a steady decline, dropping to 900 horsepower at 32,000 feet.
    We can get an idea of how a turbo-Allison P-51 would have performed by looking at a similar graph for the P-38L, which was powered by that engine type. The chart shows 1,450 horsepower at sea level, 1,450 horsepower at 8,000 feet, 1,450 horsepower at 14,000 feet, 1,450 horsepower at 22,000 feet and 1,450 horsepower at 32,000 feet. That’s the turbo advantage, and that’s what Kelsey wanted for the P-51.
    The two-stage supercharger version of the Merlin didn’t become available until midway in the war. Early Spitfires and other aircraft used the single-stage version and their performance began to suffer from 8,000 feet upwards, the heavier aircraft suffering more of course, and lighter ones like the Spitfire less. The P-40F was, against the USAAF’s objections, equipped with the Merlin single-stage engine and performed no better than the P-40s with the non-turbo Allison.

    the Merlin was that is was finicky and needed constant maintenance.

    The P-40F showcased one of the major short-comings of the Merlin — it was just not suitable for use outside northern Europe, suffering damage from over-heating, dust ingestion and all manner of ills. The F was emergency-retrofitted with Allisons, becoming the P-40R.
    The Merlin required 1.3 hours of maintenance for every hour of flight time. The Allison one hour of maintenance for every 2.3 hours of flight time.
    But beyond these and a number of other factors I could mention was the sheer trouble of fitting the Merlin to the P-51 — it required thousands of man hours of engineering work; in fact double the amount that the design of the airplane had entailed. And beyond that was the trouble of establishing manufacturing facilities and respec’ing and upgrading the engine to US standards.
    To give you an example of just one aspect of what was needed, the USAAF performed a 150-hour type test on a British-made Merlin at Wright Field in August, 1941. The test consisted of calibration, torsional vibration checks, endurance running, and a 20-hour penalty run — which ended up not being possible.
    At the tear-down inspection after the initial 150 hours, it was found that three pistons were cracked, chrome plating on the cam follower had cracked and chipped off, the impeller shaft had worn enough to allow the impeller to engage the supercharger case, copper rivets in the clutch plates of both high-gear supercharger clutches had sheared off, and the spline coupling for the supercharger drive had cracked.
    The nightmare to get this thing to work and be mass-produced had begun.
    I could write more, a lot more….

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  120. @Whoever
    A lot of our technology was not headline-grabbing, gee-whiz stuff, but was very useful for getting the job done -- the K-14 gunsight, for example, which provided the range to the target and the correct lead to take.
    At the 1944 Joint Fighter Conference at NAS Patuxent River in 1944, it was concluded that this sight didn't improve the accuracy of expert shooters, but it did bring "people in the lower and middle brackets up as much as five or six times better than they had shot before."
    A lot of our effort was put into making the average or below-average performer better through technology, thus tail-warning radar to help the pilot whose situational awareness was not quite what it should be, IFF to help avoid misidentification of targets, hydraulically-assisted ailerons, dive brakes, g-suits, etc.
    As a participant at the Patuxent Conference said, "I think we in the aircraft game should be worrying about the people in the middle third or bottom half. We have to make better sights, better cockpit arrangements, easier planes to fly for those people. We don't have to worry about our top shot or our best pilot. He can get along with any rig."
    That seems to be the opposite of the way things were in the Luftwaffe, which quickly became divided into experten and targets.

    That seems to be the opposite of the way things were in the Luftwaffe, which quickly became divided into experten and targets.

    As I recall, our top aces were often rotated back stateside to teach dogfighting to new pilots. German top aces often stayed on the line and eventually perished.

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    • Replies: @syonredux

    As I recall, our top aces were often rotated back stateside to teach dogfighting to new pilots. German top aces often stayed on the line and eventually perished.
     
    Didn't Hitler have a Panzer unit composed of Panzer instructors? The idea being that it would function as an ultra-elite unit.....I seem to recall reading that somewhere.

    Of course, once those guys were killed, all that valuable experience was lost.....
    , @Whoever
    Top aces or otherwise, after completing a tour of duty, veteran pilots were used to form the core of new fighter groups.
    For example, the 21st Fighter Group, created to provide long-range escort for B-29s bombing Japan, equipped with P-51s, was formed from a core of personnel who had served with the 1st Fighter Group in North Africa and Italy, where they had flown P-38s, and personnel from the 339th Fighter Group, who had flown P-38s and P-47s in the Southwest Pacific. They trained the new personnel for months stateside before going overseas and leading them into combat.
    It shouldn't be forgotten that these newly formed fighter groups were staffed by veteran maintenance personnel and all the other varieties of support staff as well as pilots, so that the old hands could supervise and train the green peas, ensuring that the fighter group was A-1 all the way down and things got done quickly, efficiently and effectively.
  121. @MarkinLA
    I am not saying I agree with the internment or that it had a solid foundation only that there was a belief that the Japanese may not be sufficiently loyal to the US given their recent arrival.

    Yes, I know there were people who wanted to get their hands on their farmland cheap but to people in the midwest who had no knowledge of the Japanese and the Japanese history of starting wars with sneak attacks (they started the Russo-Japanese war the same way) it probably didn't take much for people to distrust anybody Japanese.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Japanese_War

    1. Yoshikawa was not a Japanese-American, but a Japanese national and government agent.

    2. And about the Japanese-Americans:

    According to Yoshikawa, although some 160,000 persons of Japanese ancestry lived in Hawaii at that time, he never made use of this resource in his espionage activities. He and Seki agreed that, while Hawaii should be the “easiest place” to carry out such work in view of the large Japanese population, both looked at the locals with disdain. “[T]hose men of influence and character who might have assisted me in my secret mission were unanimously uncooperative….”[5] [Boldface mine.]

    Although there may have been a few people of Japanese ancestry who were traitors, they were enormously outnumbered by utterly loyal Americans of Japanese ancestry, even those whose families were interned. It’s not chance or happenstance that the 442nd RCT was the most highly decorated unit of its size in all of American history. Those men were patriots and they earned that moniker with valor and blood.

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  122. @Twinkie

    That seems to be the opposite of the way things were in the Luftwaffe, which quickly became divided into experten and targets.
     
    As I recall, our top aces were often rotated back stateside to teach dogfighting to new pilots. German top aces often stayed on the line and eventually perished.

    As I recall, our top aces were often rotated back stateside to teach dogfighting to new pilots. German top aces often stayed on the line and eventually perished.

    Didn’t Hitler have a Panzer unit composed of Panzer instructors? The idea being that it would function as an ultra-elite unit…..I seem to recall reading that somewhere.

    Of course, once those guys were killed, all that valuable experience was lost…..

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    • Replies: @Twinkie
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzer_Lehr_Division
  123. @ganderson
    I used to teach an online AP US History class. The World War II Pacific Theater unit (the course was prewritten for me- I could, however make some changes. ) It was basically Japanese internment and the horror of the A-bomb. I let the student know of my objections in the discussion threads.

    I read my son’s AP US History textbook from cover to cover about 10 years ago. No military history to speak of, especially no battles: no tactics at Gettysburg, no Midway, nothing that would interest a teenage boy. But lots about Rosie the Riveter.

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    • Replies: @ganderson
    Military history is WAYY out. It's part of the feminization of the profession. It's funny, too, a lot of social history IS interesting; and I say this as someone who was pretty hostile to social history. But we've gone from "hey, daily life is kinda interesting" to "hey, daily life is the only thing" Sad.
  124. @Olorin

    It was our fault, just like it will be Trump’s fault when Muslims who couldn’t get into the United States blow up the United States.
     
    Correct.

    This whole dollop of fear-threat-based mythic nonsense is the bolshie left's theoxeny, Steve.

    John Taylor, from "Recognition scenes in the Odyssey and the gospels":


    We meet here the widespread folktale theme (attested in many traditions) of a divine or royal visitor, testing people by coming among them in disguise.... Religion and hospitality are constantly linked.... In a world with no legal system, hotels or consulates, newly arrived strangers are vulnerable and so come under the special protection of Zeus. Every visitor has a claim on those to whom he comes, but the heightened vulnerability of a suppliant or beggar puts him particularly in need of divine protection, and makes inappropriate treatment correspondingly culpable.... Later poets and thinkers will make of [Zeus] a quasi-monotheist universal deity. It is plausible to see in this development a steady broadening of his role as the god of host and guest, and protector of the weak.
     
    Bolding mine.

    Taylor later discusses the climax of The Winter's Tale, in which Leontes recognizes that the statue of his dead wife is in fact her living self.


    The scene evokes and enacts the ancient idea of a statue as the vehicle of epiphany.
     
    Epiphanic/anagnorisis-ic tatues like, oh, say, spiky-headed bronze French ladies either buried to the bosom in sand...or standing tall and redressed in burqas...?

    For Taylor's essay see:

    The Bible and Hellenism: Greek Influence on Jewish and Early Christian Literature
    eds. Thomas L. Thompson, Philippe Wajdenbaum, Routledge, 2014

    My point is that it's something older than 20th c. bolshevism being reached back to, in the construction of these open borders myths....

    But ancient customs of hospitality toward guests were all based on the assumption that the guest would, eventually, leave.

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    • Replies: @Olorin
    Exactly correct.

    By contrast the Current Year theoxeny assumes that the HOST will be replaced (not that most of them realize that's what they're saying).

    Also the host was under obligation to provide certain things as laid out by Zeus/later society, not as continually re-imagined, expanded, and demanded by the never-leaving Doubtful Guest.

    Nor was it the practice that others would dispatch the guest to his household to make demands for their own gain or reasons ("Trojan horse" comes to mind). Never mind turning hospitality into a competitive sport, media spectacle, and political bludgeon.

    But I have wondered what accounts for the fervor--surely religious in intensity--that many SJWs bring to the immigration/borders question. The fervor is focused entirely on the Sacred Melanist immigrant's vulnerability. Even where they aren't vulnerable in the least (like all those T'd up military age Muslim males). This wraps back to the issue of fear: if we don't recognized/accommodate the god, we will be punished. Which in the case of ancient Greek culture meant respect for society and Zeus...but with Islam, means submission.

    Since classical/ancient times we've developed ways of structuring hospitality that those earlier civilizations didn't have--as Taylor notes, legal systems, consulates, and hotels among others. Our rule of law is what's held as sacred, so to speak, and things must fit under that.

    We know what illegals and their supporters think of that. It's the crux of their war on the West. No law, just sacred feelz.

    FWIW, I've made more headway talking about immigration with SJWs from the standpoint of hospitality rather than immigration law or civil rights or whatever. This angle appears in arguments when people say things like, "Great, no borders? I'm coming over to raid your refrigerator and boot you out of your bed."

    Somehow the SJW never sees that as anything but sniping and out of the question. The immigrant is particularly, sacredly VULNERABLE, and to turn her away is unthinkable because dangerous because any immigrant, like any fetus, could be the next Steve Jobs--the Zeus of Cupertino.

    This is very primitive thinking at work, and all the more reason to hasten the return of the rule of law.

    , @Expletive Deleted
    Penelope's suitors didn't want to leave. How did that work out?
    Zeus didn't seem too put out by Odysseus' eviction of unwanted guests (and the fate of the disloyal servants who'd sided with them).
  125. @syonredux

    As I recall, our top aces were often rotated back stateside to teach dogfighting to new pilots. German top aces often stayed on the line and eventually perished.
     
    Didn't Hitler have a Panzer unit composed of Panzer instructors? The idea being that it would function as an ultra-elite unit.....I seem to recall reading that somewhere.

    Of course, once those guys were killed, all that valuable experience was lost.....
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  126. @Steve Sailer
    But ancient customs of hospitality toward guests were all based on the assumption that the guest would, eventually, leave.

    Exactly correct.

    By contrast the Current Year theoxeny assumes that the HOST will be replaced (not that most of them realize that’s what they’re saying).

    Also the host was under obligation to provide certain things as laid out by Zeus/later society, not as continually re-imagined, expanded, and demanded by the never-leaving Doubtful Guest.

    Nor was it the practice that others would dispatch the guest to his household to make demands for their own gain or reasons (“Trojan horse” comes to mind). Never mind turning hospitality into a competitive sport, media spectacle, and political bludgeon.

    But I have wondered what accounts for the fervor–surely religious in intensity–that many SJWs bring to the immigration/borders question. The fervor is focused entirely on the Sacred Melanist immigrant’s vulnerability. Even where they aren’t vulnerable in the least (like all those T’d up military age Muslim males). This wraps back to the issue of fear: if we don’t recognized/accommodate the god, we will be punished. Which in the case of ancient Greek culture meant respect for society and Zeus…but with Islam, means submission.

    Since classical/ancient times we’ve developed ways of structuring hospitality that those earlier civilizations didn’t have–as Taylor notes, legal systems, consulates, and hotels among others. Our rule of law is what’s held as sacred, so to speak, and things must fit under that.

    We know what illegals and their supporters think of that. It’s the crux of their war on the West. No law, just sacred feelz.

    FWIW, I’ve made more headway talking about immigration with SJWs from the standpoint of hospitality rather than immigration law or civil rights or whatever. This angle appears in arguments when people say things like, “Great, no borders? I’m coming over to raid your refrigerator and boot you out of your bed.”

    Somehow the SJW never sees that as anything but sniping and out of the question. The immigrant is particularly, sacredly VULNERABLE, and to turn her away is unthinkable because dangerous because any immigrant, like any fetus, could be the next Steve Jobs–the Zeus of Cupertino.

    This is very primitive thinking at work, and all the more reason to hasten the return of the rule of law.

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  127. @syonredux

    The UK was already at war when he became PM.

    Beside the point. He was the leader of the war party since the mid-30s.
     
    Yeah, I know. The Churchill Cult. Even without Churchill, sentiment was building against Hitler.

    Hess thought it far likelier than that.
     
    Can't say that I have much faith in his military judgement.

    Yeah, I know. The Churchill Cult. Even without Churchill, sentiment was building against Hitler.

    Whatever. Sentiment and $4.50 will get you a cup of coffee. Bloomsbury England was a threat to no one but handsome young boys.

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  128. @Twinkie

    This was exemplified with the notoriously weak Sherman Tank which nevertheless was sent into battle to overwhelm superior German tanks.
     
    While the Sherman was more thinly armored and gunned than the heavier German Panthers and Tigers, it was far more mobile and, more importantly, was much more reliable.

    The heavier German tanks were notoriously complicated and unreliable. They broke down often, were difficult to transport, and (in the case of the Tiger) had serious problems dealing with difficult terrain and bridges.

    But you are correct that there were many more Shermans deployed than the heavier German tanks.

    The heavier German tanks were notoriously complicated and unreliable

    A friend who worked as an engineer in the auto industry had the same impression of German luxury cars.

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    • Replies: @Jim Don Bob
    Agree. German cars are over-engineered and ignore the maxim that "better is the enemy of good enough". They built a car with a -mechanical- fuel injection system FFS!

    Japanese engineers, OTOH, follow the maxim, "do the simplest thing that could possibly work".

  129. @Autochthon
    I'll bite. Complete your Mad Lib for me:

    Instead of immorally defeating the Japanese with minimal loss of life, the U.S.A. should have ___________.

    defeated the Japanese with no further loss of life.

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    • Replies: @Autochthon
    Right; of course. Doubtless a stern look and some finger-wagging would have brought them to heel straightaway.
  130. @syonredux

    My impression is that the Germans were too creative and futuristic in their R&D in the middle of WWII, coming up with, say, a rocket plane, which turned out to be a dead-end. Heck, they were working on an electric rail gun, which the US Navy is still working on today.

    Hitler was into war-winning super weapons, which encouraged expensive futurist systems like the V2.

    The Americans did a better job of building a whole bunch of units of leading edge but not bleeding edge stuff like the P-51. The P-51 was obsolete for dogfighting by the Korean War because of jets, but it was plenty good, especially in vast numbers, in 1944-45.
     
    It rather reminds me of Arthur C Clarke's short story, "Superiority":

    Superiority" is a science fiction short story by Arthur C. Clarke, first published in 1951. It depicts an arms race, and shows how the side which is more technologically advanced can be defeated, despite its apparent superiority, because of its own organizational flaws and its willingness to discard old technology without having fully perfected the new. Meanwhile, the enemy steadily built up a far larger arsenal of weapons that while more primitive were also more reliable. The story was at one point required reading for an industrial design course at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.
     
    It can be read here:


    http://www.mayofamily.com/RLM/txt_Clarke_Superiority.html

    Attributed to Stalin: “Quantity has a quality all its own”.

    http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/795954-quantity-has-a-quality-all-its-own

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  131. @SPMoore8
    Many years ago while I was browsing a volume of Stalin's speeches in Russian -- how's that for a lede -- I came across one from (IIRC) early December, 1941, and he was talking about how many trucks the US was sending to the USSR to defeat the Hitlerites.

    Ever since then, I have felt that Hitler's declaration of war against the US was in fact a consequence of the material aid the US was already giving to the Allies, plus the fact that the offensive against Moscow had petered out just a few days earlier (December 5.)

    As a short term tactic, it theoretically could have worked (but Hitler would never have defeated Russia.) The U Boats sank a lot of tonnage in 1942.

    But it was just another Hitler gamble that failed.

    We were already at war with Germany. US destroyers were doing escort duty out to about 1/3 of the way across the Atlantic and I think one U-boat had been attacked. We were doing Lend-Lease and we had already given the Brits 50 old destroyers in exchange for some leases to British held islands like that one in the Indian Ocean we bombed Iraq from in the first war.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destroyers_for_Bases_Agreement

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  132. @Steve Sailer
    But ancient customs of hospitality toward guests were all based on the assumption that the guest would, eventually, leave.

    Penelope’s suitors didn’t want to leave. How did that work out?
    Zeus didn’t seem too put out by Odysseus’ eviction of unwanted guests (and the fate of the disloyal servants who’d sided with them).

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  133. @SPMoore8
    Many years ago while I was browsing a volume of Stalin's speeches in Russian -- how's that for a lede -- I came across one from (IIRC) early December, 1941, and he was talking about how many trucks the US was sending to the USSR to defeat the Hitlerites.

    Ever since then, I have felt that Hitler's declaration of war against the US was in fact a consequence of the material aid the US was already giving to the Allies, plus the fact that the offensive against Moscow had petered out just a few days earlier (December 5.)

    As a short term tactic, it theoretically could have worked (but Hitler would never have defeated Russia.) The U Boats sank a lot of tonnage in 1942.

    But it was just another Hitler gamble that failed.

    I have felt that Hitler’s declaration of war against the US was in fact a consequence of the material aid the US was already giving to the Allies

    It had to have had a big influence. Apparently, it was quite a shock to the Germans when British Hurricane fighters captured during the Battle of France were discovered to have high-octane green gasoline in their fuel tanks rather than standard British low-octane blue gasoline. At that time, the only place in the world where that green avgas was produced was the Esso refinery in Baton Rouge, Louisiana, USA.
    The US had begun supplying green gas to Britain early in 1940 as the result of intense lobbying. That was a violation of the Neutrality Acts as originally voted into law in the 1930s. The first higher-compression engines this fuel allowed began to reach RAF units in March of that year.
    When the Germans discovered American fuel in British airplanes, they knew that the US was not a neutral and war with the United States was inevitable.

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  134. @Steve Sailer
    My impression is that the Germans were too creative and futuristic in their R&D in the middle of WWII, coming up with, say, a rocket plane, which turned out to be a dead-end. Heck, they were working on an electric rail gun, which the US Navy is still working on today.

    Hitler was into war-winning super weapons, which encouraged expensive futurist systems like the V2.

    The Americans did a better job of building a whole bunch of units of leading edge but not bleeding edge stuff like the P-51. The P-51 was obsolete for dogfighting by the Korean War because of jets, but it was plenty good, especially in vast numbers, in 1944-45.

    My impression is that the Germans were too creative and futuristic in their R&D in the middle of WWII, coming up with, say, a rocket plane

    And yet…one of the most urgent needs of the Luftwaffe for homeland air defense — and one repeatedly requested — was an interceptor with a minimum four-hour flight duration. The Me-109, Germany’s mainstay fighter, had a flight duration of only 70 minutes. That was barely enough time to climb to altitude, intercept, make one pass and get back home — and hope the intercept wasn’t directed to a decoy formation.
    Why didn’t the Germans direct their genius, such as it may have been, to practical solutions to practical problems?

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  135. @Twinkie

    That seems to be the opposite of the way things were in the Luftwaffe, which quickly became divided into experten and targets.
     
    As I recall, our top aces were often rotated back stateside to teach dogfighting to new pilots. German top aces often stayed on the line and eventually perished.

    Top aces or otherwise, after completing a tour of duty, veteran pilots were used to form the core of new fighter groups.
    For example, the 21st Fighter Group, created to provide long-range escort for B-29s bombing Japan, equipped with P-51s, was formed from a core of personnel who had served with the 1st Fighter Group in North Africa and Italy, where they had flown P-38s, and personnel from the 339th Fighter Group, who had flown P-38s and P-47s in the Southwest Pacific. They trained the new personnel for months stateside before going overseas and leading them into combat.
    It shouldn’t be forgotten that these newly formed fighter groups were staffed by veteran maintenance personnel and all the other varieties of support staff as well as pilots, so that the old hands could supervise and train the green peas, ensuring that the fighter group was A-1 all the way down and things got done quickly, efficiently and effectively.

    Read More
  136. @Bill
    defeated the Japanese with no further loss of life.

    Right; of course. Doubtless a stern look and some finger-wagging would have brought them to heel straightaway.

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  137. @AP

    The heavier German tanks were notoriously complicated and unreliable
     
    A friend who worked as an engineer in the auto industry had the same impression of German luxury cars.

    Agree. German cars are over-engineered and ignore the maxim that “better is the enemy of good enough”. They built a car with a -mechanical- fuel injection system FFS!

    Japanese engineers, OTOH, follow the maxim, “do the simplest thing that could possibly work”.

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  138. anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    “Before, say, WWI, the U.S. was pretty thinly represented at the super highest intellectual levels.”

    “we did have the phenomenally accomplished Josiah Willard Gibbs….”

    Josiah Gibbs:

    “…February 11, 1839 – April 28, 1903…

    …instrumental in transforming physical chemistry into a rigorous deductive science.

    …Together with James Clerk Maxwell and Ludwig Boltzmann, he created statistical mechanics (a term that he coined)…

    …As a mathematician, he invented modern vector calculus (independently of the British scientist Oliver Heaviside, who carried out similar work during the same period)…

    …the earliest theoretical scientist in the United States to earn an international reputation…

    …biographers have remarked on the contrast between Gibbs’s quiet, solitary life in turn of the century New England and the great international impact of his ideas.”

    “In terms of science, 19th century Anglo-America’s strong point was technology…”

    Important “math technology”:

    Nathaniel Bowditch:

    “…an early American mathematician …often credited as the founder of modern maritime navigation; his book The New American Practical Navigator, first published in 1802, is still carried on board every commissioned U.S. Naval vessel.”

    Benhamin Peirce:

    “…April 4, 1809 – October 6, 1880…

    …often regarded as the earliest American scientist whose research was recognized as world class…

    …first introduced the terms idempotent and nilpotent in 1870…”

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  139. @Steve Sailer
    I read my son's AP US History textbook from cover to cover about 10 years ago. No military history to speak of, especially no battles: no tactics at Gettysburg, no Midway, nothing that would interest a teenage boy. But lots about Rosie the Riveter.

    Military history is WAYY out. It’s part of the feminization of the profession. It’s funny, too, a lot of social history IS interesting; and I say this as someone who was pretty hostile to social history. But we’ve gone from “hey, daily life is kinda interesting” to “hey, daily life is the only thing” Sad.

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  140. I’ve never quite undestood why people get upset when nations restrict immigration from their own nations. If tomorrow China proposed the “White Foreign Devils Complete and Permanent Immigration Ban,” my inclination would be to think that they’re probably on to something.

    K, disallow any concern for anyone other than yourself, and your own ethnic group. Now run through the math again.

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Comments are closed.

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