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From ABC News:

Test meant to screen teachers instead weeded out minorities
By KAREN MATTHEWS, ASSOCIATED PRESS
NEW YORK — Mar 11, 2017, 11:51 PM ET

New York education officials are poised to scrap a test designed to measure the reading and writing skills of people trying to become teachers, in part because an outsized percentage of black and Hispanic candidates were failing it.

The state Board of Regents on Monday is expected Monday to adopt a task force’s recommendation of eliminating the literacy exam, known as the Academic Literacy Skills Test.

Backers of the test say eliminating it could put weak teachers in classrooms. …

But the literacy test raised alarms from the beginning because just 46 percent of Hispanic test takers and 41 percent of black test takers passed it on the first try, compared with 64 percent of white candidates.

That’s a pretty run-of-the-mill racial gap: about 0.58 standard deviations between whites and blacks.

A federal judge ruled in 2015 that the test was not discriminatory, but faculty members at education schools say a test that screens out so many minorities is problematic.

 
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  1. There’s that word again!

    Read More
    • Replies: @Kevin
    (((Problematic)))

    I've stopped using it completely. It's gives me the willies, anymore.
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  2. Putting aside the racial gap for a moment, what to make of the high failure rate overall? Is the test that hard, or is the pool of applicants that poor? The title of the test suggests it is measuring basic literacy. If so, these results are alarming at multiple levels.

    Read More
    • Replies: @415 reasons
    You haven't met many schoolteachers have you?
    , @Bastion
    My wife did an advanced teaching degree in NY. She wanted to change careers and has a BS in an engineering discipline. She took this test. In her estimation, if you speak American English reasonably well and can do basic arithmetic reasonably well you would have no difficulty in passing. It's a very low hurdle. The fact that a lot of sub-90 IQ applicants would be weeded would be a feature rather than a bug in a sane culture. But of course our culture has gone insane and so we have hand wringing.

    Until we reform/destroy the educational system there is little hope that we can turn things around.
    , @Of course it was
    PJ O'rourke put it well: anyone who's banged an El.Ed. major knows exactly what's wrong with education.

    For the record, I've never banged one myself. Couldn't stoop that low.
    , @Autochthon
    I'm going with Door Number Two (poor applicants).

    Have never spent time around a school of education or the people who attend them?
    , @ben tillman

    Putting aside the racial gap for a moment, what to make of the high failure rate overall? Is the test that hard, or is the pool of applicants that poor?
     
    The test sucks. It is extremely poorly designed.

    You can find a sample online:

    www.nyit.edu/files/uploads/00/ALST%20Sample.pdf

    , @guest
    I remember my graduation ceremony at a middling state university. They clustered the honors graduates together by "school." The fewest were from the math department, naturally. Just a handful. Next were the hard sciences and engineering, then social sciences and humanities (which included me).

    I thought business was a giant group, until came education. An ocean of honorees. Obviously the easiest degree, and safe to assume the dumbest students. QED.

    I don't remember whether we had a school of journalism, which could probably give education a run for its money.
    , @Bryan
    A number of possibilities.

    - the population of test takers can be adjusted in various ways; people smart enough to be lawyers, for example, won't take the test. That will push the mean ability left on the distribution, reducing the pass rate gap.

    - That would suggest that the real problem is how to prevent smart people from taking the test, since any test that has random samples of the two distribution will have similar results.

    - And THAT suggests that difficult working conditions in some public schools are a feature, not a bug. You want people with better options to take the better options, that way they aren't going to screw up your racial balance. There will be mistakes, of course, like the daughter of a friend of mine who wanted to make a difference in one of these challenging school districts outside Atlanta. Poor thing lasted exactly one year before deciding to head to Oregon with her boyfriend, where she could do all the good she wanted without out interacting with reality.
    , @pyrrhus
    The GRE scores of education majors are much lower than those of every other major. On the average, they are not intelligent.
  3. LMAO

    Best iSteve headline ever?

    Read More
    • Replies: @International Jew
    Actually, I don't get what Steve's headline has to do with the ABC News article.
    , @Buck Turgidson
    yes, pretty funny there Steve-o
  4. That’s a pretty run-of-the-mill racial gap: about 0.58 standard deviations between whites and blacks.

    Pearbotham’s Law. I checked it too. Maybe they should make the test way easier (or way harder).

    Read More
  5. @Trelane

    That’s a pretty run-of-the-mill racial gap: about 0.58 standard deviations between whites and blacks.
     
    Pearbotham's Law. I checked it too. Maybe they should make the test way easier (or way harder).
    Read More
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    Steve I loved La Griffe's typically brilliant paper. But can you please explain in simple terms the real causes of the shapes of those curves that illustrate the "mathematical artefact". What changes what?
  6. Why don’t they just do the quota and be done with it? You want 40% minorities, make them do the DNA test and then let the minorities be ranked among themselves. Oh, too many East Asians? Then refine the quotas. After all, minority students can only learn from minority teachers. It is only white students that can learn from all and “benefit” from diversity!

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anon
    (Broski on phone)

    That leads to Jewish quotas, which have proven unpalatable. See the Ivy League pre-WW2 for examples. It's still considered one of the key pieces of American antisemitism that Harvard stopped 2% of the population from exceeding 10% of the student body.
  7. In this case the B-W gap being about half the normal 1.1 SD is because this is a test of college graduates plus some ed school post grads who want to be teachers, not of the gen pop. So the tested population is likely about IQ 113 for the white sample and IQ 105 for the black sample.

    I remain unconvinced that school teachers all need to be fairly smart. Teaching 6 year olds to read and supervision of 9 year olds fingerpainting can be done by nice ladies with 90 IQs.

    Read More
    • Replies: @little spoon
    My experience with teachers in NY is that those in good neighborhoods teaching challenging subjects generally are very good teachers. But the city puts an immense amount of resources into educating everything with a pulse- from non verbal autistic children to children with felony convictions. People who are nice but not bright at all often get jobs in this vast array of govt jobs- bus assistants for the mentally challenged, hall monitors in the schools for ex cons etc. And then they take part time courses (supported and funded by their jobs) and try to take the test to become a teacher while they are there. Some of them pass. Many do not.
    , @Trelane
    According to data from the occupational sciences the mean IQ of primary school teachers is ~100 and for secondary school teachers it's ~110. Your figures are a little ambitious Lot.

    As far as the sigma being 0.6 instead of 1.1, that's best explained by the test not having a lot of g-loading. Tests of rote memorization and recall are like that.

    Today's 9 year olds don't do finger painting. They're immersed in language studies, active literacy, presentation skills and arithmetic. Their teachers should be at a minimum competent in these areas. I'd suggest a minimum teacher IQ of no less than their student's IQ.
    , @jJay
    Depends on the subject, it's well within the reach of many 9 yos to just blow you away in basic math or beat you in a game of chess.

    If you're teaching this, you won't alway win, but it's best not be incompetent.
    , @ben tillman

    In this case the B-W gap being about half the normal 1.1 SD is because this is a test of college graduates plus some ed school post grads who want to be teachers, not of the gen pop. So the tested population is likely about IQ 113 for the white sample and IQ 105 for the black sample.
     
    And the test is so poorly designed that everyone will have to do some guessing.
  8. Anon says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    (Broski on phone)

    Teachers are not that smart. 105 iq or so on average, bottom of the college graduate range.

    Read More
  9. “Putting aside the racial gap for a moment, what to make of the high failure rate overall? Is the test that hard, or is the pool of applicants that poor? ”

    If it were hard, one would expect more than a .58 Stdv. You would get a full standard deviation between whites and blacks on a hard test. Now, the pool is filtered because it will be only given to people in college programs or graduate programs preparing for this career, but that’s the case for the LSAT too and there you do get the full standard deviation between black and white scores because the LSAT is hard.

    Maybe the test is just poorly designed. Otherwise for some reason the black applicants to become teachers are in a higher IQ percentile for their race than white applicants.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Clyde

    Otherwise for some reason the black applicants to become teachers are in a higher IQ percentile for their race than white applicants
     
    Because it is an obtainable job for smarter blacks who will admit to their limitations. Smarter whites and Asians have a wider range of professional options. Plus educator is a prestigious job in the black community. The pay can be really good when they have the ability to politic their way upward to being principals, and most disastrous to the taxpayers, as incompetent heads of school systems. These black heads of public school systems get hired with much positive fanfare.
    Get ousted within four years with absurdly high severance pay.
    Pop up within 12 months heading up a new urban school system
  10. @O'Really
    Putting aside the racial gap for a moment, what to make of the high failure rate overall? Is the test that hard, or is the pool of applicants that poor? The title of the test suggests it is measuring basic literacy. If so, these results are alarming at multiple levels.

    You haven’t met many schoolteachers have you?

    Read More
  11. But these are the like standardized tests that pick Blacks and Latinos out of the rough ghetto to attend high-expectation schools among smart Whites and Asians.

    For heaven’s sake, imagine teaching an algebra class where most of the kids knew the subject better than you from day one. This is not wildly uncommon on the subject of math, even in ordinary schools.

    Read More
  12. Anon says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @Charles Erwin Wilson
    Why don't they just do the quota and be done with it? You want 40% minorities, make them do the DNA test and then let the minorities be ranked among themselves. Oh, too many East Asians? Then refine the quotas. After all, minority students can only learn from minority teachers. It is only white students that can learn from all and "benefit" from diversity!

    (Broski on phone)

    That leads to Jewish quotas, which have proven unpalatable. See the Ivy League pre-WW2 for examples. It’s still considered one of the key pieces of American antisemitism that Harvard stopped 2% of the population from exceeding 10% of the student body.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Opinionator
    That leads to Jewish quotas, which have proven unpalatable. See the Ivy League pre-WW2 for examples. It’s still considered one of the key pieces of American antisemitism that Harvard stopped 2% of the population from exceeding 10% of the student body.

    Interesting use of the passive voice and appeal to ... whom? ... throughout your comment.

    "which have proven unpalatable"

    "It's still considered"
  13. Anon says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    ROTFL.

    Stuff like this is getting surreal.

    Meritocracy = race-ist.

    Yes it is. Everything is race-ist. Races are different.

    Look at meritocracy in sports. Reality favors certain races for certain tasks.

    It’s called evolution.

    Geez.

    Btw, I wonder what the differences between white Hispanics(the true Hispanics) and other kinds(non-whites such as Mesos and Mulattos) who are mislabeled as ‘Hispanic’ or ‘Latino’.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anon
    (Broski on phone)

    Meritocracy = racist is a bitter pill to swallow.
    , @AndrewR
    You raise a good question, Gubbler. Lumping white/whiter "Hispanics" in with mestizos and Aztecs makes white Hispanics seem dumber than they arle and brown Hispanics seem smarter than they are. It's time to ditch the Hispanic label completely. And we obviously need to stop including Jews in the huwyt category but we all know that ain't gonna happen.
  14. Anon says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @Anon
    ROTFL.

    Stuff like this is getting surreal.

    Meritocracy = race-ist.

    Yes it is. Everything is race-ist. Races are different.

    Look at meritocracy in sports. Reality favors certain races for certain tasks.

    It's called evolution.

    Geez.

    Btw, I wonder what the differences between white Hispanics(the true Hispanics) and other kinds(non-whites such as Mesos and Mulattos) who are mislabeled as 'Hispanic' or 'Latino'.

    (Broski on phone)

    Meritocracy = racist is a bitter pill to swallow.

    Read More
    • Replies: @dfordoom

    Meritocracy = racist is a bitter pill to swallow.
     
    You have to ask whether your country could survive swallowing that particular pill.
  15. @Lot
    In this case the B-W gap being about half the normal 1.1 SD is because this is a test of college graduates plus some ed school post grads who want to be teachers, not of the gen pop. So the tested population is likely about IQ 113 for the white sample and IQ 105 for the black sample.

    I remain unconvinced that school teachers all need to be fairly smart. Teaching 6 year olds to read and supervision of 9 year olds fingerpainting can be done by nice ladies with 90 IQs.

    My experience with teachers in NY is that those in good neighborhoods teaching challenging subjects generally are very good teachers. But the city puts an immense amount of resources into educating everything with a pulse- from non verbal autistic children to children with felony convictions. People who are nice but not bright at all often get jobs in this vast array of govt jobs- bus assistants for the mentally challenged, hall monitors in the schools for ex cons etc. And then they take part time courses (supported and funded by their jobs) and try to take the test to become a teacher while they are there. Some of them pass. Many do not.

    Read More
    • Replies: @dr kill
    Education is managed as a jobs program for Democrat voters, nothing more. This is the only success that counts. Student achievement means nothing.
  16. @Lot
    In this case the B-W gap being about half the normal 1.1 SD is because this is a test of college graduates plus some ed school post grads who want to be teachers, not of the gen pop. So the tested population is likely about IQ 113 for the white sample and IQ 105 for the black sample.

    I remain unconvinced that school teachers all need to be fairly smart. Teaching 6 year olds to read and supervision of 9 year olds fingerpainting can be done by nice ladies with 90 IQs.

    According to data from the occupational sciences the mean IQ of primary school teachers is ~100 and for secondary school teachers it’s ~110. Your figures are a little ambitious Lot.

    As far as the sigma being 0.6 instead of 1.1, that’s best explained by the test not having a lot of g-loading. Tests of rote memorization and recall are like that.

    Today’s 9 year olds don’t do finger painting. They’re immersed in language studies, active literacy, presentation skills and arithmetic. Their teachers should be at a minimum competent in these areas. I’d suggest a minimum teacher IQ of no less than their student’s IQ.

    Read More
  17. @Lot
    In this case the B-W gap being about half the normal 1.1 SD is because this is a test of college graduates plus some ed school post grads who want to be teachers, not of the gen pop. So the tested population is likely about IQ 113 for the white sample and IQ 105 for the black sample.

    I remain unconvinced that school teachers all need to be fairly smart. Teaching 6 year olds to read and supervision of 9 year olds fingerpainting can be done by nice ladies with 90 IQs.

    Depends on the subject, it’s well within the reach of many 9 yos to just blow you away in basic math or beat you in a game of chess.

    If you’re teaching this, you won’t alway win, but it’s best not be incompetent.

    Read More
  18. @Anon
    (Broski on phone)

    That leads to Jewish quotas, which have proven unpalatable. See the Ivy League pre-WW2 for examples. It's still considered one of the key pieces of American antisemitism that Harvard stopped 2% of the population from exceeding 10% of the student body.

    That leads to Jewish quotas, which have proven unpalatable. See the Ivy League pre-WW2 for examples. It’s still considered one of the key pieces of American antisemitism that Harvard stopped 2% of the population from exceeding 10% of the student body.

    Interesting use of the passive voice and appeal to … whom? … throughout your comment.

    “which have proven unpalatable”

    “It’s still considered”

    Read More
    • Replies: @Broski
    I'm simply stating how it is.
    , @Mr. Anon
    Quite true. Nearly every statement about policy or politics needs to be read with an implicit "to whom".
  19. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    …ended up screening out minorities? How about the Asian minority? Were they screened out?

    BTW is there an Asian correlary to the nice white ladies who do all that teaching of non-whites in public schools? Chua doesn’t count.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Karl
    19 Anonymous > BTW is there an Asian correlary to the nice white ladies who do all that teaching

    the market for foreign brides, is like the market for green fodder.... unregulated by government hands
  20. @O'Really
    Putting aside the racial gap for a moment, what to make of the high failure rate overall? Is the test that hard, or is the pool of applicants that poor? The title of the test suggests it is measuring basic literacy. If so, these results are alarming at multiple levels.

    My wife did an advanced teaching degree in NY. She wanted to change careers and has a BS in an engineering discipline. She took this test. In her estimation, if you speak American English reasonably well and can do basic arithmetic reasonably well you would have no difficulty in passing. It’s a very low hurdle. The fact that a lot of sub-90 IQ applicants would be weeded would be a feature rather than a bug in a sane culture. But of course our culture has gone insane and so we have hand wringing.

    Until we reform/destroy the educational system there is little hope that we can turn things around.

    Read More
    • Replies: @CAL
    Freshman year in college, my eventual wife was tutoring a lady on the Ohio teacher's test. The lady was about to graduate and was struggling with it. I'm no rocket scientist, but I could have taken it cold and aced it. These tests are minimal competency tests and if you can't pass them you shouldn't be in the classroom.
    , @Eustace Tilley (not)
    Roger that, Bastion.

    I actually took the NY teachers' test. It's "a very low hurdle", indeed.

    Most teachers in the public school systems in New York State are pathetic. So are most of the students, since well-to-do and intelligent parents send their children to private or parochial schools if at all possible. The two-bit politicians on the school boards are largely ignorant, preening jackasses.

    Which is the bigger waste of taxpayers' money, the military/industrial /security complex or the public school systems? It's a tough call.

    We must abolish public schools as soon as possible. They are mostly Big Brother's indoctrination camps for kiddies.

  21. Look, the average math teacher in twenty states with average difficulty math credential tests has an SAT math score of about 580 (2005-2015 version). This doesn’t include California and NY, both states with much harder credential tests. So no, math teachers aren’t teaching algebra to students who know more than they do, even in extraordinary schools, much less ordinary ones.

    Anyone who maunders on about teachers being stupid or having IQs of 105 is ignorant and should return himself to the kiddie pool and pee there.

    “Your figures are a little ambitious Lot.”

    No, they aren’t. Pull out art teachers, PE teachers, and SPED teachers, leaving the academic group, and he’s probably a little low.

    “Why don’t they just do the quota and be done with it?”

    Ed schools can’t do affirmative action because of these credential tests. But don’t worry, they do lots of affirmative action in administrator hiring.

    “Otherwise for some reason the black applicants to become teachers are in a higher IQ percentile for their race than white applicants.”

    That’s not at all impossible. Blacks who take this test have already a) graduated from college, weeding out the very bottom and b) passed other credential tests, which have weeded out the <90 IQs. Meanwhile, while white high school teachers are smarter than average, the teaching pool is weighted towards elementary school teachers. Even if there are really, really smart people taking the test, the top probably isn't as high as, say, the SAT or GRE. So it'd be topped out.

    My guess–the blacks and Hispanics passing the test are disproportionately high school teachers, thus higher abilities than average, and most of the whites are passing it, pulling down the white average with elementary school teachers.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Autochthon
    There is probably also some self-selection influencing the samples: The brightest black and brown people frequently and reasonably aspire to be teachers; the brightest white people become engineers, physicians, etc.
    , @jJay
    Anyone who maunders on about teachers being stupid or having IQs of 105 is ignorant and should return himself to the kiddie pool and pee there.

    An IQ of 105 is, by definition, above average. Ignorance is another matter. What the heck are going on about?
    , @International Jew
    580 is a pretty sucky SAT math score. I wouldn't want anyone like that teaching math beyond elementary school.
    , @Jack D

    Look, the average math teacher in twenty states with average difficulty math credential tests has an SAT math score of about 580 (2005-2015 version). This doesn’t include California and NY, both states with much harder credential tests. So no, math teachers aren’t teaching algebra to students who know more than they do, even in extraordinary schools, much less ordinary ones.
     
    This seems to be a non-sequitur. If the teachers are scoring 580 and they have students who score much higher (these certainly exist in "extraordinary schools"), then at the very least the students are smarter than their teachers (and might even know more math).

    My daughter was (is) very gifted at math so it always seemed strange to me that the nice white lady who was the head of the math dept. at my daughter's school really didn't seem to like her (while most of her teachers loved her). It occurred to me just now that this lady felt threatened by my daughter's intelligence.
  22. Blacks that could easily pass the teacher test can get much better paying jobs than what teaching pays.

    Read More
  23. @O'Really
    Putting aside the racial gap for a moment, what to make of the high failure rate overall? Is the test that hard, or is the pool of applicants that poor? The title of the test suggests it is measuring basic literacy. If so, these results are alarming at multiple levels.

    PJ O’rourke put it well: anyone who’s banged an El.Ed. major knows exactly what’s wrong with education.

    For the record, I’ve never banged one myself. Couldn’t stoop that low.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Harry Baldwin
    PJ O'Rourke endorsed Hillary, so he's capable of stooping extremely low.
  24. I love the article’s headline—”Test meant to screen teachers instead weeds out minorities.” More accurate would be something along the lines of: “Test screens teachers, weeding out unqualified minorities in the process.”

    Read More
    • Replies: @International Jew
    Yes, I do like your headline better.

    I have another issue with it though. How does a journalist who (surely) thinks well of minorities compare them to weeds? I know, I know, insensitivity to language is everywhere. But still...
  25. @O'Really
    Putting aside the racial gap for a moment, what to make of the high failure rate overall? Is the test that hard, or is the pool of applicants that poor? The title of the test suggests it is measuring basic literacy. If so, these results are alarming at multiple levels.

    I’m going with Door Number Two (poor applicants).

    Have never spent time around a school of education or the people who attend them?

    Read More
  26. I am sure that not many of you have the patience to listen to this 13 minute instrumental . Paul Bloomfield touched heaven with his solo . Here it comes at 7:06 , a random man once again glimpses and attempts to express the sublime .

    For myself , my brief glimpse of the sublime and terrifying eternity was shattering . I inadvertently by pure accident stumbled into the infinite timeless emptiness . Alone and abandoned by “God” as I saw it . Absolutely terrified my ego fled from extinction and consequently rejected the terrifying gift of freedom .

    Read More
    • Replies: @Autochthon
    Been eating special brownies and contemplating Jon Anderson's lyrics, eh?
    , @ben tillman
    It's like a cover of The Great Society's cover of Sally Go 'Round the Roses, except by guys who can actually play their instruments. I hear some Fat Angel as well.
    , @Lot
    Sounds like the intro to White Rabbit.
    , @Kylie
    Mike.
    , @Negrolphin Pool
    This is exemplary of what us musicians sometimes refer to as cacophonous hippy trash.
  27. @education realist
    Look, the average math teacher in twenty states with average difficulty math credential tests has an SAT math score of about 580 (2005-2015 version). This doesn't include California and NY, both states with much harder credential tests. So no, math teachers aren't teaching algebra to students who know more than they do, even in extraordinary schools, much less ordinary ones.

    Anyone who maunders on about teachers being stupid or having IQs of 105 is ignorant and should return himself to the kiddie pool and pee there.

    "Your figures are a little ambitious Lot."

    No, they aren't. Pull out art teachers, PE teachers, and SPED teachers, leaving the academic group, and he's probably a little low.

    "Why don’t they just do the quota and be done with it?"

    Ed schools can't do affirmative action because of these credential tests. But don't worry, they do lots of affirmative action in administrator hiring.

    "Otherwise for some reason the black applicants to become teachers are in a higher IQ percentile for their race than white applicants."

    That's not at all impossible. Blacks who take this test have already a) graduated from college, weeding out the very bottom and b) passed other credential tests, which have weeded out the <90 IQs. Meanwhile, while white high school teachers are smarter than average, the teaching pool is weighted towards elementary school teachers. Even if there are really, really smart people taking the test, the top probably isn't as high as, say, the SAT or GRE. So it'd be topped out.

    My guess--the blacks and Hispanics passing the test are disproportionately high school teachers, thus higher abilities than average, and most of the whites are passing it, pulling down the white average with elementary school teachers.

    There is probably also some self-selection influencing the samples: The brightest black and brown people frequently and reasonably aspire to be teachers; the brightest white people become engineers, physicians, etc.

    Read More
  28. @donut
    I am sure that not many of you have the patience to listen to this 13 minute instrumental . Paul Bloomfield touched heaven with his solo . Here it comes at 7:06 , a random man once again glimpses and attempts to express the sublime .

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvIUdDtOO9E

    For myself , my brief glimpse of the sublime and terrifying eternity was shattering . I inadvertently by pure accident stumbled into the infinite timeless emptiness . Alone and abandoned by "God" as I saw it . Absolutely terrified my ego fled from extinction and consequently rejected the terrifying gift of freedom .

    Been eating special brownies and contemplating Jon Anderson’s lyrics, eh?

    Read More
    • Replies: @donut
    No , I haven't . But when you face what we all must face I will wish you well , for all the good it will do .
  29. ” The brightest black and brown people frequently and reasonably aspire to be teachers; .”

    Um, no. The brightest frequently and reasonably aspire to be doctors and lawyers. If they aspired to be teachers we wouldn’t have a shortage of “minority” teachers.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Autochthon
    I wrote imprecisely.

    I concede that the brightest brown and black people may indeed aspire to be lawyers and physicians.

    I suspect that they don't succeed, and may well revert to teaching.

    I say without an iota of malice or ill will (many were my friends), but only one of the ten or so black persons I attended law school with was minimally qualified to practice law, and even at that, I wouldn't hire him. (Many failed the bar exam repeatedly, so this assessment is not merely my opinion.)

    Although scads of what Steve has called conquistador-Americans styled themselves Hispanic for govermentally subsidised cash and prizes, only two were legitimately brown (i.e., mestizoid): one returned to an abysmal practice in El Paso filing bankruptcies, divorces, and other low-rent, borderline scriveners' work for aliens. The last I was in touch with the other, he was working for a collections agency in Miami and living with his mother.

    (I've striven to provide anecdotes in the spirit of examples and illustrations; I concede they may be inadequate rebuttals, but I am unmotivated to check the empirical data.)
  30. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    OT: Trump is slipping in the Rasmussen poll likely due to his lunatic support for Paul Ryan’s knifing of the base…

    Daily Presidential Tracking Poll (Trump support for RyanCare taking hold?)

    “The Rasmussen Reports daily Presidential Tracking Poll for Monday shows that 47% of Likely U.S. Voters approve of President Trump’s job performance. Fifty-three percent (53%) disapprove”

    http://freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/3534441/posts

    He’s been as high as 55%. Trump needs more sleep! Lack of sleep impairs judgment.

    OTOH our old friend David Frum twitter claims Paul Ryan was given enough rope to hang himself by the Whitehouse and Trump is now in position to get a new speaker of the house. But From doesn’t credit Trump ’cause Trump is supposedly too stupid for this level of strategy. So it must be the evil genius Bannon.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Kaz
    Or it's because he can't stop himself from saying stupid shit like Barack Obama wiretapped Trump Tower SAD.
    , @Bugg
    Ryan going on "Tucker" and babbling his usual nonsense as Carlson looked at him as if he had 2 heads was the beginning of the end. May be not today or this month but at some point Ryan's cluelessness in all this will end him. Not sure if this is Trump or Bannon's handiwork or if Ryan is simply that foolish. Trump and the GOP cannot replace Obamacare with something even worse.
  31. Today’s 9 year olds don’t do finger painting. They’re immersed in language studies, active literacy, presentation skills and arithmetic. Their teachers should be at a minimum competent in these areas. I’d suggest a minimum teacher IQ of no less than their student’s IQ.

    You don’t have much of a clue as to what 9 year olds do, which is somewhat more advanced than finger painting, but not as, er, ambitious as you pretend.

    Read More
    • Agree: PiltdownMan
    • Replies: @Twinkie

    You don’t have much of a clue as to what 9 year olds do, which is somewhat more advanced than finger painting, but not as, er, ambitious as you pretend.
     
    I don't think this is "somewhat more advanced than finger painting": http://www.setonhome.org/grade-4/

    And is closer to "language studies, active literacy, presentation skills and arithmetic."
  32. @O'Really
    Putting aside the racial gap for a moment, what to make of the high failure rate overall? Is the test that hard, or is the pool of applicants that poor? The title of the test suggests it is measuring basic literacy. If so, these results are alarming at multiple levels.

    Putting aside the racial gap for a moment, what to make of the high failure rate overall? Is the test that hard, or is the pool of applicants that poor?

    The test sucks. It is extremely poorly designed.

    You can find a sample online:

    http://www.nyit.edu/files/uploads/00/ALST%20Sample.pdf

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    That really is a terrible test. The answer choices don't make much sense. The confusing answer choices may explain the narrower gap.

    Makes you wonder if the test was deliberately designed to be confusing so that the range of scores are narrower.
    , @International Jew
    Yikes. I just flunked the first section — the reading comprehension part. It seemed like there were two and even three decent choices for each question.

    But it's weird. The reading passage itself seems off somehow, imprecise with its language. Starting with "well-rounded" in fact. Also, I don't understand the "idea and hope" thing. And why the "however" in the middle of the first paragraph??

    Whoever wrote the multiple choice answers is either a lot smarter than me, or as bad a reader as the author is a writer.

    , @O'Really
    I think you're overstating the case a bit.

    Some of the answers are ambiguous, but I would want jr high & high school teachers to at least be able to get a passing score (even if they miss a couple of the poorly phrased questions).

    I don't see the relevance to early primary education, though. In my experience, different qualities are more important for teachers to succeed at the K-3 level.
    , @peterike
    I love how the first reading passage in that test is all about how wealthy and wonderful the Steins were. You can't even get past the first sentence before you're hit with "German Jewish immigrant who had made a fortune."

    With all the prose passages in the world to chose from, somehow this one gets, ahem, chosen.
  33. @Lot
    In this case the B-W gap being about half the normal 1.1 SD is because this is a test of college graduates plus some ed school post grads who want to be teachers, not of the gen pop. So the tested population is likely about IQ 113 for the white sample and IQ 105 for the black sample.

    I remain unconvinced that school teachers all need to be fairly smart. Teaching 6 year olds to read and supervision of 9 year olds fingerpainting can be done by nice ladies with 90 IQs.

    In this case the B-W gap being about half the normal 1.1 SD is because this is a test of college graduates plus some ed school post grads who want to be teachers, not of the gen pop. So the tested population is likely about IQ 113 for the white sample and IQ 105 for the black sample.

    And the test is so poorly designed that everyone will have to do some guessing.

    Read More
  34. An analogy I don’t see used enough is that comparing HBD-clueless with HBD-aware perspectives is like the difference between the Ptolemaic (i.e. geocentric) model of the universe and the Copernican (i.e. heliocentric) model.

    The people who thought the sun and planets revolved around the earth had to come up with increasingly complicated mechanisms called “epicycles” that could kinda sorta barely explain what they saw but had to get more and more complicated over time to explain the continuing better and better observations of the actual universe. Everything was simple to understand and explain if you just threw out the Ptolemaic model and adopted a earth-goes-around-the-sun view. But believers in the old model couldn’t do that and persisted in using complicated explanations that failed to properly explain the world around them. Sound familiar?

    They also burned heretics but nothing like that could ever happen today…

    Read More
    • Agree: Harry Baldwin, res
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Actually, you had to throw out perfect circles as well and note that orbits were elliptical.
    , @Peripatetic commenter

    An analogy I don’t see used enough is that comparing HBD-clueless with HBD-aware perspectives is like the difference between the Ptolemaic (i.e. geocentric) model of the universe and the Copernican (i.e. heliocentric) model.
     
    You can find a useful discussion about those models here: https://farside.ph.utexas.edu/books/Syntaxis/Almagest/node1.html

    It points out that there is a lot of ignorance surrounding the usual claims about those two.

    Further, the reality is that for 99.999 percent of people alive today (and probably 99.999999999 percent of people who have ever lived) it make little difference whether the geocentric or heliocentric or some other model is correct. That is, it is unlikely to cause your death if you do not know the correct model unless you happen to meet a homicidal astronomer.

    On the other hand, not understanding some important things about HBD can lead to an awful death for young white women (and men) and has done so here in America and elsewhere.

    It's almost as if there is a conspiracy among the elites to have people obsess inordinately over irrelevant truths rather than understand more relevant truths.

  35. @Opinionator
    That leads to Jewish quotas, which have proven unpalatable. See the Ivy League pre-WW2 for examples. It’s still considered one of the key pieces of American antisemitism that Harvard stopped 2% of the population from exceeding 10% of the student body.

    Interesting use of the passive voice and appeal to ... whom? ... throughout your comment.

    "which have proven unpalatable"

    "It's still considered"

    I’m simply stating how it is.

    Read More
  36. The test result suggests that the white applicants are from the low end of the Caucasian pool and the blacks and hispanics are from the higher end of their pool.

    Read More
  37. @education realist
    " The brightest black and brown people frequently and reasonably aspire to be teachers; ."

    Um, no. The brightest frequently and reasonably aspire to be doctors and lawyers. If they aspired to be teachers we wouldn't have a shortage of "minority" teachers.

    I wrote imprecisely.

    I concede that the brightest brown and black people may indeed aspire to be lawyers and physicians.

    I suspect that they don’t succeed, and may well revert to teaching.

    I say without an iota of malice or ill will (many were my friends), but only one of the ten or so black persons I attended law school with was minimally qualified to practice law, and even at that, I wouldn’t hire him. (Many failed the bar exam repeatedly, so this assessment is not merely my opinion.)

    Although scads of what Steve has called conquistador-Americans styled themselves Hispanic for govermentally subsidised cash and prizes, only two were legitimately brown (i.e., mestizoid): one returned to an abysmal practice in El Paso filing bankruptcies, divorces, and other low-rent, borderline scriveners’ work for aliens. The last I was in touch with the other, he was working for a collections agency in Miami and living with his mother.

    (I’ve striven to provide anecdotes in the spirit of examples and illustrations; I concede they may be inadequate rebuttals, but I am unmotivated to check the empirical data.)

    Read More
    • Replies: @Twinkie

    I concede that the brightest brown and black people may indeed aspire to be lawyers and physicians.

    I suspect that they don’t succeed, and may well revert to teaching.
     
    Argh no.

    I am very familiar with the administration of several large hospitals and medical practices. At one specialty practice (generally more selective than primary care fields), ALL - I mean 100% - of black physicians failed to pass the Board certification (they had been employed because they were "Board-eligible," which is allowed initially). As the affiliated hospital policy was to require the Board-eligible to be eventually Board-certified in order to continue permanent employment, all these black doctors had to be let go or shunted off to locations/jobs that did not require Board certification. And all those who were let go were employed elsewhere (with less strict requirements). None has gone into teaching primary or secondary schools, as far as I know.

    Since then the said practice has gone through several cycles of this craziness until it finally found a handful of competent black doctors. They are treated extremely well and are compensated better than white and Asian doctors of similar experience level and competence.
    , @Frau Katze
    These conquistador-Americans have a pretty good deal going for them in the US.

    In Canada, where the fraction of the population that are native is higher than the US (plus no slavery to whine about) means a lot of SJW work goes into making whites feel guilty because their ancestors came here and ripped off the natives.

    It's kind of the equivalent of the slavery issue in the US. The natives are quite high profile here.

    Apparently the conquistador descendants not only feel no white privilege guilt, but they're actually passing themselves off as victims.

    Nice work if you can get it.
  38. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    OT: entertaining read here…

    A MODEST PROPOSAL FOR SEPARATING BLUE STATES FROM RED

    https://newrepublic.com/article/140948/bluexit-blue-states-exit-trump-red-america

    This piece is childish and very long but it’s instructive in its massive dumb wrongitude. Early on he claims that it’s blue states which have “absorbed the most destitute, unskilled, and oppressed portions of your populations…” when the truth is that the major internal migration in America is from the sclerotic northeast to the sunbelt. There are many other errors …it’s a contender for epic incoherent rant of the month and he got paid to write it.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Frau Katze
    https://newrepublic.com/article/140948/bluexit-blue-states-exit-trump-red-america

    I stopped reading a couple of paragraphs in:

    A few years of Republican border and refugee policies, and we’ll be headed back to the ever-whiter America that preceded Lyndon Johnson’s 1965 immigration reform.
     
    , @Greasy William
    Why was this published?
  39. @Polynices
    An analogy I don't see used enough is that comparing HBD-clueless with HBD-aware perspectives is like the difference between the Ptolemaic (i.e. geocentric) model of the universe and the Copernican (i.e. heliocentric) model.

    The people who thought the sun and planets revolved around the earth had to come up with increasingly complicated mechanisms called "epicycles" that could kinda sorta barely explain what they saw but had to get more and more complicated over time to explain the continuing better and better observations of the actual universe. Everything was simple to understand and explain if you just threw out the Ptolemaic model and adopted a earth-goes-around-the-sun view. But believers in the old model couldn't do that and persisted in using complicated explanations that failed to properly explain the world around them. Sound familiar?

    They also burned heretics but nothing like that could ever happen today...

    Actually, you had to throw out perfect circles as well and note that orbits were elliptical.

    Read More
  40. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @ben tillman

    Putting aside the racial gap for a moment, what to make of the high failure rate overall? Is the test that hard, or is the pool of applicants that poor?
     
    The test sucks. It is extremely poorly designed.

    You can find a sample online:

    www.nyit.edu/files/uploads/00/ALST%20Sample.pdf

    That really is a terrible test. The answer choices don’t make much sense. The confusing answer choices may explain the narrower gap.

    Makes you wonder if the test was deliberately designed to be confusing so that the range of scores are narrower.

    Read More
  41. @donut
    I am sure that not many of you have the patience to listen to this 13 minute instrumental . Paul Bloomfield touched heaven with his solo . Here it comes at 7:06 , a random man once again glimpses and attempts to express the sublime .

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvIUdDtOO9E

    For myself , my brief glimpse of the sublime and terrifying eternity was shattering . I inadvertently by pure accident stumbled into the infinite timeless emptiness . Alone and abandoned by "God" as I saw it . Absolutely terrified my ego fled from extinction and consequently rejected the terrifying gift of freedom .

    It’s like a cover of The Great Society’s cover of Sally Go ‘Round the Roses, except by guys who can actually play their instruments. I hear some Fat Angel as well.

    Read More
  42. @Autochthon
    Been eating special brownies and contemplating Jon Anderson's lyrics, eh?

    No , I haven’t . But when you face what we all must face I will wish you well , for all the good it will do .

    Read More
  43. @40 Acres and A Kardashian
    LMAO

    Best iSteve headline ever?

    Actually, I don’t get what Steve’s headline has to do with the ABC News article.

    Read More
  44. @donut
    I am sure that not many of you have the patience to listen to this 13 minute instrumental . Paul Bloomfield touched heaven with his solo . Here it comes at 7:06 , a random man once again glimpses and attempts to express the sublime .

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvIUdDtOO9E

    For myself , my brief glimpse of the sublime and terrifying eternity was shattering . I inadvertently by pure accident stumbled into the infinite timeless emptiness . Alone and abandoned by "God" as I saw it . Absolutely terrified my ego fled from extinction and consequently rejected the terrifying gift of freedom .

    Sounds like the intro to White Rabbit.

    Read More
  45. @O'Really
    Putting aside the racial gap for a moment, what to make of the high failure rate overall? Is the test that hard, or is the pool of applicants that poor? The title of the test suggests it is measuring basic literacy. If so, these results are alarming at multiple levels.

    I remember my graduation ceremony at a middling state university. They clustered the honors graduates together by “school.” The fewest were from the math department, naturally. Just a handful. Next were the hard sciences and engineering, then social sciences and humanities (which included me).

    I thought business was a giant group, until came education. An ocean of honorees. Obviously the easiest degree, and safe to assume the dumbest students. QED.

    I don’t remember whether we had a school of journalism, which could probably give education a run for its money.

    Read More
  46. @education realist
    Look, the average math teacher in twenty states with average difficulty math credential tests has an SAT math score of about 580 (2005-2015 version). This doesn't include California and NY, both states with much harder credential tests. So no, math teachers aren't teaching algebra to students who know more than they do, even in extraordinary schools, much less ordinary ones.

    Anyone who maunders on about teachers being stupid or having IQs of 105 is ignorant and should return himself to the kiddie pool and pee there.

    "Your figures are a little ambitious Lot."

    No, they aren't. Pull out art teachers, PE teachers, and SPED teachers, leaving the academic group, and he's probably a little low.

    "Why don’t they just do the quota and be done with it?"

    Ed schools can't do affirmative action because of these credential tests. But don't worry, they do lots of affirmative action in administrator hiring.

    "Otherwise for some reason the black applicants to become teachers are in a higher IQ percentile for their race than white applicants."

    That's not at all impossible. Blacks who take this test have already a) graduated from college, weeding out the very bottom and b) passed other credential tests, which have weeded out the <90 IQs. Meanwhile, while white high school teachers are smarter than average, the teaching pool is weighted towards elementary school teachers. Even if there are really, really smart people taking the test, the top probably isn't as high as, say, the SAT or GRE. So it'd be topped out.

    My guess--the blacks and Hispanics passing the test are disproportionately high school teachers, thus higher abilities than average, and most of the whites are passing it, pulling down the white average with elementary school teachers.

    Anyone who maunders on about teachers being stupid or having IQs of 105 is ignorant and should return himself to the kiddie pool and pee there.

    An IQ of 105 is, by definition, above average. Ignorance is another matter. What the heck are going on about?

    Read More
  47. @ben tillman

    Putting aside the racial gap for a moment, what to make of the high failure rate overall? Is the test that hard, or is the pool of applicants that poor?
     
    The test sucks. It is extremely poorly designed.

    You can find a sample online:

    www.nyit.edu/files/uploads/00/ALST%20Sample.pdf

    Yikes. I just flunked the first section — the reading comprehension part. It seemed like there were two and even three decent choices for each question.

    But it’s weird. The reading passage itself seems off somehow, imprecise with its language. Starting with “well-rounded” in fact. Also, I don’t understand the “idea and hope” thing. And why the “however” in the middle of the first paragraph??

    Whoever wrote the multiple choice answers is either a lot smarter than me, or as bad a reader as the author is a writer.

    Read More
    • Replies: @midtown
    I thought the first question had no good choices. I agree in general, though -- very poorly written test.
    , @CAL
    The article selected is poorly written. I had to go back and read the first sentence a couple of times to figure out the whole polish bit. Then Gertrude is moving across Atlantic. Where we don't know. We just know she went there with her family is then in California living a well rounded life. You are correct in that it is imprecise.

    Then the questions ask you to interpret things that are vaguely alluded to in text.

    The writer of the questions is probably as imprecise with language as the writer of the article.
    , @Seth Largo
    The test is fine. You're thinking too hard about the answers. When it comes to reading comprehension tests, one can rationalize many or all answers to be somehow "correct." The point of the test is to see if you can apply Ockham's Razor to discover the most obviously correct answer, the one that requires the least amount of rationalization.

    That said, I think language arts tests should stick to analogies and a timed writing section.

    /780 GRE Verbal
    //but don't ask for my math score

  48. @ben tillman

    Putting aside the racial gap for a moment, what to make of the high failure rate overall? Is the test that hard, or is the pool of applicants that poor?
     
    The test sucks. It is extremely poorly designed.

    You can find a sample online:

    www.nyit.edu/files/uploads/00/ALST%20Sample.pdf

    I think you’re overstating the case a bit.

    Some of the answers are ambiguous, but I would want jr high & high school teachers to at least be able to get a passing score (even if they miss a couple of the poorly phrased questions).

    I don’t see the relevance to early primary education, though. In my experience, different qualities are more important for teachers to succeed at the K-3 level.

    Read More
  49. @education realist
    Look, the average math teacher in twenty states with average difficulty math credential tests has an SAT math score of about 580 (2005-2015 version). This doesn't include California and NY, both states with much harder credential tests. So no, math teachers aren't teaching algebra to students who know more than they do, even in extraordinary schools, much less ordinary ones.

    Anyone who maunders on about teachers being stupid or having IQs of 105 is ignorant and should return himself to the kiddie pool and pee there.

    "Your figures are a little ambitious Lot."

    No, they aren't. Pull out art teachers, PE teachers, and SPED teachers, leaving the academic group, and he's probably a little low.

    "Why don’t they just do the quota and be done with it?"

    Ed schools can't do affirmative action because of these credential tests. But don't worry, they do lots of affirmative action in administrator hiring.

    "Otherwise for some reason the black applicants to become teachers are in a higher IQ percentile for their race than white applicants."

    That's not at all impossible. Blacks who take this test have already a) graduated from college, weeding out the very bottom and b) passed other credential tests, which have weeded out the <90 IQs. Meanwhile, while white high school teachers are smarter than average, the teaching pool is weighted towards elementary school teachers. Even if there are really, really smart people taking the test, the top probably isn't as high as, say, the SAT or GRE. So it'd be topped out.

    My guess--the blacks and Hispanics passing the test are disproportionately high school teachers, thus higher abilities than average, and most of the whites are passing it, pulling down the white average with elementary school teachers.

    580 is a pretty sucky SAT math score. I wouldn’t want anyone like that teaching math beyond elementary school.

    Read More
  50. @Autochthon
    I wrote imprecisely.

    I concede that the brightest brown and black people may indeed aspire to be lawyers and physicians.

    I suspect that they don't succeed, and may well revert to teaching.

    I say without an iota of malice or ill will (many were my friends), but only one of the ten or so black persons I attended law school with was minimally qualified to practice law, and even at that, I wouldn't hire him. (Many failed the bar exam repeatedly, so this assessment is not merely my opinion.)

    Although scads of what Steve has called conquistador-Americans styled themselves Hispanic for govermentally subsidised cash and prizes, only two were legitimately brown (i.e., mestizoid): one returned to an abysmal practice in El Paso filing bankruptcies, divorces, and other low-rent, borderline scriveners' work for aliens. The last I was in touch with the other, he was working for a collections agency in Miami and living with his mother.

    (I've striven to provide anecdotes in the spirit of examples and illustrations; I concede they may be inadequate rebuttals, but I am unmotivated to check the empirical data.)

    I concede that the brightest brown and black people may indeed aspire to be lawyers and physicians.

    I suspect that they don’t succeed, and may well revert to teaching.

    Argh no.

    I am very familiar with the administration of several large hospitals and medical practices. At one specialty practice (generally more selective than primary care fields), ALL – I mean 100% – of black physicians failed to pass the Board certification (they had been employed because they were “Board-eligible,” which is allowed initially). As the affiliated hospital policy was to require the Board-eligible to be eventually Board-certified in order to continue permanent employment, all these black doctors had to be let go or shunted off to locations/jobs that did not require Board certification. And all those who were let go were employed elsewhere (with less strict requirements). None has gone into teaching primary or secondary schools, as far as I know.

    Since then the said practice has gone through several cycles of this craziness until it finally found a handful of competent black doctors. They are treated extremely well and are compensated better than white and Asian doctors of similar experience level and competence.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Autochthon
    I do not suggest licensed physicians are leaving to teach elementary school; I suggest those aspiring to become phsycians but who fail to do so may wind up as teachers.
  51. @John Chard
    I love the article's headline---"Test meant to screen teachers instead weeds out minorities." More accurate would be something along the lines of: "Test screens teachers, weeding out unqualified minorities in the process."

    Yes, I do like your headline better.

    I have another issue with it though. How does a journalist who (surely) thinks well of minorities compare them to weeds? I know, I know, insensitivity to language is everywhere. But still…

    Read More
  52. @Autochthon
    I wrote imprecisely.

    I concede that the brightest brown and black people may indeed aspire to be lawyers and physicians.

    I suspect that they don't succeed, and may well revert to teaching.

    I say without an iota of malice or ill will (many were my friends), but only one of the ten or so black persons I attended law school with was minimally qualified to practice law, and even at that, I wouldn't hire him. (Many failed the bar exam repeatedly, so this assessment is not merely my opinion.)

    Although scads of what Steve has called conquistador-Americans styled themselves Hispanic for govermentally subsidised cash and prizes, only two were legitimately brown (i.e., mestizoid): one returned to an abysmal practice in El Paso filing bankruptcies, divorces, and other low-rent, borderline scriveners' work for aliens. The last I was in touch with the other, he was working for a collections agency in Miami and living with his mother.

    (I've striven to provide anecdotes in the spirit of examples and illustrations; I concede they may be inadequate rebuttals, but I am unmotivated to check the empirical data.)

    These conquistador-Americans have a pretty good deal going for them in the US.

    In Canada, where the fraction of the population that are native is higher than the US (plus no slavery to whine about) means a lot of SJW work goes into making whites feel guilty because their ancestors came here and ripped off the natives.

    It’s kind of the equivalent of the slavery issue in the US. The natives are quite high profile here.

    Apparently the conquistador descendants not only feel no white privilege guilt, but they’re actually passing themselves off as victims.

    Nice work if you can get it.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Clyde

    In Canada, where the fraction of the population that are native is higher than the US (plus no slavery to whine about) means a lot of SJW work goes into making whites feel guilty because their ancestors came here and ripped off the natives.
     
    I rather be drinking on The Rez in Canada than America. Don't some tribes own vast hydro-power there?
  53. @education realist
    Today’s 9 year olds don’t do finger painting. They’re immersed in language studies, active literacy, presentation skills and arithmetic. Their teachers should be at a minimum competent in these areas. I’d suggest a minimum teacher IQ of no less than their student’s IQ.

    You don't have much of a clue as to what 9 year olds do, which is somewhat more advanced than finger painting, but not as, er, ambitious as you pretend.

    You don’t have much of a clue as to what 9 year olds do, which is somewhat more advanced than finger painting, but not as, er, ambitious as you pretend.

    I don’t think this is “somewhat more advanced than finger painting”: http://www.setonhome.org/grade-4/

    And is closer to “language studies, active literacy, presentation skills and arithmetic.”

    Read More
  54. @Anonymous
    OT: entertaining read here...

    A MODEST PROPOSAL FOR SEPARATING BLUE STATES FROM RED

    https://newrepublic.com/article/140948/bluexit-blue-states-exit-trump-red-america

    This piece is childish and very long but it's instructive in its massive dumb wrongitude. Early on he claims that it's blue states which have "absorbed the most destitute, unskilled, and oppressed portions of your populations..." when the truth is that the major internal migration in America is from the sclerotic northeast to the sunbelt. There are many other errors ...it's a contender for epic incoherent rant of the month and he got paid to write it.

    https://newrepublic.com/article/140948/bluexit-blue-states-exit-trump-red-america

    I stopped reading a couple of paragraphs in:

    A few years of Republican border and refugee policies, and we’ll be headed back to the ever-whiter America that preceded Lyndon Johnson’s 1965 immigration reform.

    Read More
  55. @donut
    I am sure that not many of you have the patience to listen to this 13 minute instrumental . Paul Bloomfield touched heaven with his solo . Here it comes at 7:06 , a random man once again glimpses and attempts to express the sublime .

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvIUdDtOO9E

    For myself , my brief glimpse of the sublime and terrifying eternity was shattering . I inadvertently by pure accident stumbled into the infinite timeless emptiness . Alone and abandoned by "God" as I saw it . Absolutely terrified my ego fled from extinction and consequently rejected the terrifying gift of freedom .

    Mike.

    Read More
    • Agree: PiltdownMan, Clyde
    • Replies: @Clyde
    I happen to be reading last posts first here....I knew that was East-West without looking at donut's post. All I gotta say is MAGA!
  56. What I find amazing is that you keep reading in the press how Murray’s IQ-Race have been largely debunked and discredited.

    As an experiment, I have been googling “achievement gap” in “Google News” every day for the past 18 months or so. I find news articles almost everyday, often in small cities papers about how the achievement gap is a problem and not going away.

    People talk more and more about how the achievement gap exists even before school start. Maybe eventually they will realize that the gap is there at birth.

    Also you keep hearing of Africa rising, yet I have yet to see any high IQ industries emerging from there. Just today Intel bought a high tech business from Israel for 15 billions. Ever seen that happen from african/arab countries?

    Read More
  57. Republicans think the teachers are bad (although they are the same type as those in Idaho or Massachusetts where the students don’t seem to do so poorly as those in Cal and NYC), and Dems love them for their unions, except when it comes to the majority of them being white women.

    And so they must go as I’ve been telling my teacher wife (and wannabe teacher daughter). But it really isn’t a hardship on white women to be forced out of teaching black and brown kids since they don’t want to do that anyway, and new white teachers dread getting assigned to such schools since they have to take what’s given them to start with. (Black and brown teachers don’t like such classrooms either, but how can they protest the assignment?) And so you’ll be having black and brown teachers quitting in droves right off the bat (or simply sleeping at their desks or something for the paycheck).

    I mean, how many white teachers are there in Detroit, Atlanta, and Washington DC these days?

    It will probably destroy the teacher’s unions, perhaps.

    It’s like what Steve keeps saying about the Dems having to hire lots of blacks and browns for their campaigns now and it not being a big help in the hustle and strategery dept.

    Also, since all these white teachers are racially at fault for the achievement gap, what happens when the gap gets worse with all these black and brown teachers? That should be a fun fix the blame session.

    Read More
  58. “That’s a pretty run-of-the-mill racial gap: about 0.58 standard deviations between whites and blacks.”

    Basically all American blacks are part white, right? Or to put it another way, African-Americans are part European.

    Is there a standard HBD interpretation of this fact? e.g. that the white American / black American gap is X, the white European / black African gap is Y, and the quantitative difference between X and Y is due to … (some *quantitative* fact about the amount of race-mixing in America).

    Read More
  59. @Anonymous
    OT: entertaining read here...

    A MODEST PROPOSAL FOR SEPARATING BLUE STATES FROM RED

    https://newrepublic.com/article/140948/bluexit-blue-states-exit-trump-red-america

    This piece is childish and very long but it's instructive in its massive dumb wrongitude. Early on he claims that it's blue states which have "absorbed the most destitute, unskilled, and oppressed portions of your populations..." when the truth is that the major internal migration in America is from the sclerotic northeast to the sunbelt. There are many other errors ...it's a contender for epic incoherent rant of the month and he got paid to write it.

    Why was this published?

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  60. @Anonymous
    OT: Trump is slipping in the Rasmussen poll likely due to his lunatic support for Paul Ryan's knifing of the base...

    Daily Presidential Tracking Poll (Trump support for RyanCare taking hold?)

    "The Rasmussen Reports daily Presidential Tracking Poll for Monday shows that 47% of Likely U.S. Voters approve of President Trump’s job performance. Fifty-three percent (53%) disapprove"

    http://freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/3534441/posts

    He's been as high as 55%. Trump needs more sleep! Lack of sleep impairs judgment.

    OTOH our old friend David Frum twitter claims Paul Ryan was given enough rope to hang himself by the Whitehouse and Trump is now in position to get a new speaker of the house. But From doesn't credit Trump 'cause Trump is supposedly too stupid for this level of strategy. So it must be the evil genius Bannon.

    Or it’s because he can’t stop himself from saying stupid shit like Barack Obama wiretapped Trump Tower SAD.

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    • Replies: @Pericles
    It probably wasn't Obama personally who ordered it and by the way, no 'wires' were tapped, there was just ordinary digital surveillance, bigots!
  61. @little spoon
    "Putting aside the racial gap for a moment, what to make of the high failure rate overall? Is the test that hard, or is the pool of applicants that poor? "

    If it were hard, one would expect more than a .58 Stdv. You would get a full standard deviation between whites and blacks on a hard test. Now, the pool is filtered because it will be only given to people in college programs or graduate programs preparing for this career, but that's the case for the LSAT too and there you do get the full standard deviation between black and white scores because the LSAT is hard.

    Maybe the test is just poorly designed. Otherwise for some reason the black applicants to become teachers are in a higher IQ percentile for their race than white applicants.

    Otherwise for some reason the black applicants to become teachers are in a higher IQ percentile for their race than white applicants

    Because it is an obtainable job for smarter blacks who will admit to their limitations. Smarter whites and Asians have a wider range of professional options. Plus educator is a prestigious job in the black community. The pay can be really good when they have the ability to politic their way upward to being principals, and most disastrous to the taxpayers, as incompetent heads of school systems. These black heads of public school systems get hired with much positive fanfare.
    Get ousted within four years with absurdly high severance pay.
    Pop up within 12 months heading up a new urban school system

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  62. Teachers are not that smart. 105 iq or so on average, bottom of the college graduate range.

    Maybe not now, but in my day (pre-women’s lib) I had some fantastically talented teachers.

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    • Replies: @guest
    "Some," now, too. Teaching is still a calling, and as such draws some of the best people, despite the fact that it's an objectively crappy profession.
  63. @Kylie
    Mike.

    I happen to be reading last posts first here….I knew that was East-West without looking at donut’s post. All I gotta say is MAGA!

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    • Replies: @Kylie
    Clyde, my first love is classical music. Most modern music seems very flimsy and insubstantial to me. But I've been in love with Bloomfield's playing since I first heard Super Session well over 40 years ago. His artistry is unmistakable and unforgettable. All I can say is OMG.
  64. @Frau Katze
    These conquistador-Americans have a pretty good deal going for them in the US.

    In Canada, where the fraction of the population that are native is higher than the US (plus no slavery to whine about) means a lot of SJW work goes into making whites feel guilty because their ancestors came here and ripped off the natives.

    It's kind of the equivalent of the slavery issue in the US. The natives are quite high profile here.

    Apparently the conquistador descendants not only feel no white privilege guilt, but they're actually passing themselves off as victims.

    Nice work if you can get it.

    In Canada, where the fraction of the population that are native is higher than the US (plus no slavery to whine about) means a lot of SJW work goes into making whites feel guilty because their ancestors came here and ripped off the natives.

    I rather be drinking on The Rez in Canada than America. Don’t some tribes own vast hydro-power there?

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    • Replies: @Frau Katze
    The ones in western Canada don't own hydro projects, but I don't know about the east.

    They tend to have reservations where they were living when Europeans arrived. So there's reserves right in greater Vancouver, for example. But some reserves are very remote.

    They keep agitating for more land. Kind of like the reparations for blacks thing, except they're serious and have had some success.

    They seem to be genetically prone to alcoholism. I am guessing that this is due to their recent (in evolutionary time) exposure to it. One also sees more alcoholism in Northern Europeans than in the south, so I suspect genetics there too.

    But the native problem is far worse than even the worst European groups. It's holding them back from doing much of anything at all.
  65. @40 Acres and A Kardashian
    LMAO

    Best iSteve headline ever?

    yes, pretty funny there Steve-o

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    • Replies: @pepperinmono
    Steve-o reminds me of Steverino, a very funny man indeed.
  66. @International Jew
    Yikes. I just flunked the first section — the reading comprehension part. It seemed like there were two and even three decent choices for each question.

    But it's weird. The reading passage itself seems off somehow, imprecise with its language. Starting with "well-rounded" in fact. Also, I don't understand the "idea and hope" thing. And why the "however" in the middle of the first paragraph??

    Whoever wrote the multiple choice answers is either a lot smarter than me, or as bad a reader as the author is a writer.

    I thought the first question had no good choices. I agree in general, though — very poorly written test.

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  67. “Today’s 9 year olds don’t do finger painting. They’re immersed in language studies, active literacy, presentation skills and arithmetic. Their teachers should be at a minimum competent in these areas. I’d suggest a minimum teacher IQ of no less than their student’s IQ.
    You don’t have much of a clue as to what 9 year olds do, which is somewhat more advanced than finger painting, but not as, er, ambitious as you pretend.”

    My second grade eight year old, last night, had homework in which he had to identify the subject-predicate of sentences.
    He has had two presentations this year (admittedly pretty low standard)-one on a family heirloom, I can’t remember the subject of the other. They aren’t just ‘stand up and talk.’ They are graded in terms of whether they address particular questions, maintain eye contact, etc etc.
    His math homework goes like this: ’152 kids like blue flowers. 229 kids like red flowers. 237 kids like green flowers. How many more kids like red and blue flowers than green flowers?’ (this is the exact problem, with numbers made up because I can’t remember them, that he had last night).

    We are in a quasi-rural area of flyover country, though the school is Catholic.

    joeyjoejoe

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    • Replies: @ATate
    My 7 year old first grader brings home math like this:

    9+X+4=18

    Algebra in the 1st grade.
    , @Desiderius
    We did sentence diagramming in second-grade (Mrs. Jacobs' class) in 1978, midwest public school, as well as three digit subtraction (carrying being the new thing). Teaching practical techniques like maintaining eye contact is a useful addition to the curriculum, and second-grade is the perfect time to hit it - that's the age when students discover their peers/when poor teachers waste a lot of time yelling about students talking.
  68. @Anonymous
    ...ended up screening out minorities? How about the Asian minority? Were they screened out?

    BTW is there an Asian correlary to the nice white ladies who do all that teaching of non-whites in public schools? Chua doesn't count.

    19 Anonymous > BTW is there an Asian correlary to the nice white ladies who do all that teaching

    the market for foreign brides, is like the market for green fodder…. unregulated by government hands

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  69. @little spoon
    My experience with teachers in NY is that those in good neighborhoods teaching challenging subjects generally are very good teachers. But the city puts an immense amount of resources into educating everything with a pulse- from non verbal autistic children to children with felony convictions. People who are nice but not bright at all often get jobs in this vast array of govt jobs- bus assistants for the mentally challenged, hall monitors in the schools for ex cons etc. And then they take part time courses (supported and funded by their jobs) and try to take the test to become a teacher while they are there. Some of them pass. Many do not.

    Education is managed as a jobs program for Democrat voters, nothing more. This is the only success that counts. Student achievement means nothing.

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    • Replies: @Jack D
    A few years ago, Corey Booker talked Zuckerberg into donating $100 million to the Newark public schools. They realized that they couldn't get rid of the incompetent (mostly black) teachers because of the union so they paid those teachers to sit around while they hired better ones. Eventually the $ ran out and the next head of the school system ran on a platform of putting things back to the old way and running the school system as a jobs program for blacks. He won.

    Newark schools used to contain Magic Dirt, when guys like Philip Roth attended. But then the Magic Dirt lost its magic and now, no matter how much $ they spend trying to bring it back, the magic won't return. Magic Dirt makes at least as much sense as the mainstream explanations. Murray's explanation is racist and completely unacceptable and the mainstream doesn't really have a good explanation (mumble something about "problematic") so Magic Dirt is the way to go.
    , @Forbes
    Yes, a jobs program for adults providing day care to adolescents. Teacher "qualifications" and student "proficiency" test scores are lowered until sufficient and acceptable numbers "pass." Actual learning is a secondary by-product of the system. Lake Woebegon for dummies.
  70. One of the best math teachers I ever had was a black guy. Of course this was at a fancy $$$$$ private school.

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  71. How about the NBA lowers the height of the basketball rim, to reduce the unfair advantage of tall men and those who can jump high?

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    • Replies: @Bryan
    Yeah, but lowering the rim wouldn't eliminate the advantage tall people have. It could reduce the advantage tallness has at the extreme of the distribution vis-a-vis other athletic attributes, but I doubt it wold help short people very much.
    , @Formerly CARealist
    I actually think they should raise it 6 inches or so since it seems to be so easy for guys to dunk the ball. There's an upper limit to height and athletic ability, and I think we've reached it. It's past time to make the rim higher to compensate for so many 6'10" guys who dominate now.
  72. “A federal judge ruled in 2015 that the test was not discriminatory, but faculty members at education schools say a test that screens out so many minorities is problematic.”

    “Problematic” seems to have come to mean “If I clearly and explicitly spell out what I believe to be the problem, my reasoning will sound incredibly shallow and stupid, so instead I shall vaguely imply the existence of some hidden malice, and let your imagination fill in the gaps“.

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  73. @education realist
    Look, the average math teacher in twenty states with average difficulty math credential tests has an SAT math score of about 580 (2005-2015 version). This doesn't include California and NY, both states with much harder credential tests. So no, math teachers aren't teaching algebra to students who know more than they do, even in extraordinary schools, much less ordinary ones.

    Anyone who maunders on about teachers being stupid or having IQs of 105 is ignorant and should return himself to the kiddie pool and pee there.

    "Your figures are a little ambitious Lot."

    No, they aren't. Pull out art teachers, PE teachers, and SPED teachers, leaving the academic group, and he's probably a little low.

    "Why don’t they just do the quota and be done with it?"

    Ed schools can't do affirmative action because of these credential tests. But don't worry, they do lots of affirmative action in administrator hiring.

    "Otherwise for some reason the black applicants to become teachers are in a higher IQ percentile for their race than white applicants."

    That's not at all impossible. Blacks who take this test have already a) graduated from college, weeding out the very bottom and b) passed other credential tests, which have weeded out the <90 IQs. Meanwhile, while white high school teachers are smarter than average, the teaching pool is weighted towards elementary school teachers. Even if there are really, really smart people taking the test, the top probably isn't as high as, say, the SAT or GRE. So it'd be topped out.

    My guess--the blacks and Hispanics passing the test are disproportionately high school teachers, thus higher abilities than average, and most of the whites are passing it, pulling down the white average with elementary school teachers.

    Look, the average math teacher in twenty states with average difficulty math credential tests has an SAT math score of about 580 (2005-2015 version). This doesn’t include California and NY, both states with much harder credential tests. So no, math teachers aren’t teaching algebra to students who know more than they do, even in extraordinary schools, much less ordinary ones.

    This seems to be a non-sequitur. If the teachers are scoring 580 and they have students who score much higher (these certainly exist in “extraordinary schools”), then at the very least the students are smarter than their teachers (and might even know more math).

    My daughter was (is) very gifted at math so it always seemed strange to me that the nice white lady who was the head of the math dept. at my daughter’s school really didn’t seem to like her (while most of her teachers loved her). It occurred to me just now that this lady felt threatened by my daughter’s intelligence.

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    • Replies: @Pericles
    Teachers need not be supersmart, and god knows they're not, but they should at least have the intelligence and ethics to send on smarter students to more challenging work when they can't provide it.
    , @Gringo
    This seems to be a non-sequitur. If the teachers are scoring 580 and they have students who score much higher (these certainly exist in “extraordinary schools”), then at the very least the students are smarter than their teachers (and might even know more math).

    My Economics teacher in high school put it well at the beginning of the year: "Some of you are brighter than me, but you can still learn from me." I was brighter than he, and also learned valuable stuff in his class. He was a good teacher. Most teachers deal every year with students in their classes who are brighter than the teacher. I was brighter than all of my elementary school teachers and nearly all of my high school teachers. [Ironically, the one example where my teacher may have been brighter than me- she was a Phi Beta Kappa graduate in Math from UMichigan- she was a lousy teacher. I ignored her and taught myself from the textbook.]

    For the most part, my being brighter than the teacher wasn't a problem. My elementary school teachers were very gracious about my correcting their factual errors. It was a problem in an AP History class where the teacher didn't know the material. His not knowing the material was a bigger problem than his IQ.

  74. Where does the article mention the variance of the sample? The difference could be 0.58 SD or it could be more/less. Hard to infer without actual parameters.

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  75. @dr kill
    Education is managed as a jobs program for Democrat voters, nothing more. This is the only success that counts. Student achievement means nothing.

    A few years ago, Corey Booker talked Zuckerberg into donating $100 million to the Newark public schools. They realized that they couldn’t get rid of the incompetent (mostly black) teachers because of the union so they paid those teachers to sit around while they hired better ones. Eventually the $ ran out and the next head of the school system ran on a platform of putting things back to the old way and running the school system as a jobs program for blacks. He won.

    Newark schools used to contain Magic Dirt, when guys like Philip Roth attended. But then the Magic Dirt lost its magic and now, no matter how much $ they spend trying to bring it back, the magic won’t return. Magic Dirt makes at least as much sense as the mainstream explanations. Murray’s explanation is racist and completely unacceptable and the mainstream doesn’t really have a good explanation (mumble something about “problematic”) so Magic Dirt is the way to go.

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    • Replies: @Alfa158
    The great science fiction writer Larry Niven could explain that White people indeed depleted the supply of Magic Dirt in Newark and other cities, then moved on to the suburbs in search of fresh Magic Dirt, leaving Black folk ignorant and impoverished. That is why we need Section 8 to move them out to where there is still Magic Dirt.

    Decades before Steve coined "Magic Dirt", Larry Niven wrote a fiction series The Magic Goes Away that postulated a scientific explanation for humanity's stories about magic being real. Dirt really was magical and used to have a physical property that people and beings with talent could draw on to do magic. In pre-history, there were gods, demons, unicorns, dragons, wizards, castles floating in the air and all the rest of it. Unfortunately, the magic property was a finite resource and using it eventually depleted the local supply. Wizards moved around to keep practicing magic until it was almost all used up, and gargoyles turned to stone, the flying castles crashed to earth and dragons turned to dinosaur fossils. Humanity adapted to the dwindling of magic, but the last wizards, most of whom were incredibly ancient would die without magic, so they convened in a last desperate attempt to find a solution.
    They saw the moon as a new resource for magic, after all even a non-magician can look up at it and feel the magic, so they figured they would use the last remaining large store of magic on earth, a sleeping god to pull the moon down to earth to be exploited. Being weak on science, including astronomy, they had no idea how that little circle in the sky was really another planet and that doing so would re-liquefy the earth's crust and wipe out life. Disaster was narrowly averted and the last magic died away.

  76. @Bastion
    There's that word again!

    (((Problematic)))

    I’ve stopped using it completely. It’s gives me the willies, anymore.

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  77. A few years ago, there was a similar panic when it was found out that Boston’s new teacher evaluation system, based on student test scores as well as observations of teachers, was giving too many black teachers the lowest (firable) score. The funny part was that it also was giving many more male teachers and older teachers the lowest score.

    https://ies.ed.gov/ncee/edlabs/regions/northeast/pdf/REL_2017189.pdf

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    • Replies: @Pericles
    Must be quite fundable to tease those apart using the very latest version of Excel so that the rest are kept when the male teachers are fired.
  78. Make Illiterates Great Again–for the children!

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    • Replies: @Pericles

    Make Illiterates Great Again–for the children!
     
    #MEGA
  79. @Anon
    ROTFL.

    Stuff like this is getting surreal.

    Meritocracy = race-ist.

    Yes it is. Everything is race-ist. Races are different.

    Look at meritocracy in sports. Reality favors certain races for certain tasks.

    It's called evolution.

    Geez.

    Btw, I wonder what the differences between white Hispanics(the true Hispanics) and other kinds(non-whites such as Mesos and Mulattos) who are mislabeled as 'Hispanic' or 'Latino'.

    You raise a good question, Gubbler. Lumping white/whiter “Hispanics” in with mestizos and Aztecs makes white Hispanics seem dumber than they arle and brown Hispanics seem smarter than they are. It’s time to ditch the Hispanic label completely. And we obviously need to stop including Jews in the huwyt category but we all know that ain’t gonna happen.

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    • Replies: @larry lurker
    > huwyt

    Is this a /pol/ coinage? I've seen "huw(h)ite" a couple of places too. Homage to Jared Taylor?
    , @Jack D
    So white Hispanics should be reclassified as white but white Jews should be removed from the white category? (I BTW will put my whiteness up against anyone - I am as white as a beluga whale. I sunburn after 30 seconds of exposure. If I was in Africa I would be mistaken for an albino and eaten.)

    I am not unbiased in such matters, but (and I think Trump agrees with me on this - see Stephen Miller, Jared Kushner, etc.) wouldn't it be better to have smart Jews on your side instead of excluding them from your team?
  80. @donut
    I am sure that not many of you have the patience to listen to this 13 minute instrumental . Paul Bloomfield touched heaven with his solo . Here it comes at 7:06 , a random man once again glimpses and attempts to express the sublime .

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvIUdDtOO9E

    For myself , my brief glimpse of the sublime and terrifying eternity was shattering . I inadvertently by pure accident stumbled into the infinite timeless emptiness . Alone and abandoned by "God" as I saw it . Absolutely terrified my ego fled from extinction and consequently rejected the terrifying gift of freedom .

    This is exemplary of what us musicians sometimes refer to as cacophonous hippy trash.

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    • Agree: Autochthon
    • Replies: @donut
    Ordinarily I wouldn't respond to an insult from an uncultivated cur like yourself , I mean we all have our own taste in music right ? However you describe your self as a musician . And yet while you mock your betters you have neglected to provide us any examples of your own "artistry" . Could it be that your "talent" as a musician amounts to nothing more than the squeaks of a poorly house broken lap dog yapping at a real dog urinating on your lawn as he passes by on his way to fame and fortune ?
  81. @Bastion
    My wife did an advanced teaching degree in NY. She wanted to change careers and has a BS in an engineering discipline. She took this test. In her estimation, if you speak American English reasonably well and can do basic arithmetic reasonably well you would have no difficulty in passing. It's a very low hurdle. The fact that a lot of sub-90 IQ applicants would be weeded would be a feature rather than a bug in a sane culture. But of course our culture has gone insane and so we have hand wringing.

    Until we reform/destroy the educational system there is little hope that we can turn things around.

    Freshman year in college, my eventual wife was tutoring a lady on the Ohio teacher’s test. The lady was about to graduate and was struggling with it. I’m no rocket scientist, but I could have taken it cold and aced it. These tests are minimal competency tests and if you can’t pass them you shouldn’t be in the classroom.

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  82. @Anonymous
    OT: Trump is slipping in the Rasmussen poll likely due to his lunatic support for Paul Ryan's knifing of the base...

    Daily Presidential Tracking Poll (Trump support for RyanCare taking hold?)

    "The Rasmussen Reports daily Presidential Tracking Poll for Monday shows that 47% of Likely U.S. Voters approve of President Trump’s job performance. Fifty-three percent (53%) disapprove"

    http://freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/3534441/posts

    He's been as high as 55%. Trump needs more sleep! Lack of sleep impairs judgment.

    OTOH our old friend David Frum twitter claims Paul Ryan was given enough rope to hang himself by the Whitehouse and Trump is now in position to get a new speaker of the house. But From doesn't credit Trump 'cause Trump is supposedly too stupid for this level of strategy. So it must be the evil genius Bannon.

    Ryan going on “Tucker” and babbling his usual nonsense as Carlson looked at him as if he had 2 heads was the beginning of the end. May be not today or this month but at some point Ryan’s cluelessness in all this will end him. Not sure if this is Trump or Bannon’s handiwork or if Ryan is simply that foolish. Trump and the GOP cannot replace Obamacare with something even worse.

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    • Replies: @Harry Baldwin
    I don't see a solution to the Obamacare situation. When conservatives suggests that selling insurance across state lines and Health Savings Accounts (HSA) are going to make all the difference, they're kidding themselves. Insurance costs what it's going to cost, state lines notwithstanding. I used to have an HSA and every year I would spend all the tax-deferred savings in it on our medical bills.

    Rush Limbaugh, who is so rich that he probably just pays out-of-pocket for everything, thinks we have to leave it to the free market. Ah, yes. With my wife, daughter, and me on the best free market plan we could buy in 2012, I was paying nearly $1,200 a month, with two $10,000 deductibles having to be met before all costs would be covered. Theoretically, we could each spend $9,999 on medical costs above the ~$14,000 in annual premiums, or nearly $41,000, before coverage kicked in. In other words, chicken feed for Limbaugh, but ruinous for people like us.
  83. @Autochthon
    There is probably also some self-selection influencing the samples: The brightest black and brown people frequently and reasonably aspire to be teachers; the brightest white people become engineers, physicians, etc.

    Or get juiced in on big-money financial scams.

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  84. @International Jew
    Yikes. I just flunked the first section — the reading comprehension part. It seemed like there were two and even three decent choices for each question.

    But it's weird. The reading passage itself seems off somehow, imprecise with its language. Starting with "well-rounded" in fact. Also, I don't understand the "idea and hope" thing. And why the "however" in the middle of the first paragraph??

    Whoever wrote the multiple choice answers is either a lot smarter than me, or as bad a reader as the author is a writer.

    The article selected is poorly written. I had to go back and read the first sentence a couple of times to figure out the whole polish bit. Then Gertrude is moving across Atlantic. Where we don’t know. We just know she went there with her family is then in California living a well rounded life. You are correct in that it is imprecise.

    Then the questions ask you to interpret things that are vaguely alluded to in text.

    The writer of the questions is probably as imprecise with language as the writer of the article.

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  85. @O'Really
    Putting aside the racial gap for a moment, what to make of the high failure rate overall? Is the test that hard, or is the pool of applicants that poor? The title of the test suggests it is measuring basic literacy. If so, these results are alarming at multiple levels.

    A number of possibilities.

    - the population of test takers can be adjusted in various ways; people smart enough to be lawyers, for example, won’t take the test. That will push the mean ability left on the distribution, reducing the pass rate gap.

    - That would suggest that the real problem is how to prevent smart people from taking the test, since any test that has random samples of the two distribution will have similar results.

    - And THAT suggests that difficult working conditions in some public schools are a feature, not a bug. You want people with better options to take the better options, that way they aren’t going to screw up your racial balance. There will be mistakes, of course, like the daughter of a friend of mine who wanted to make a difference in one of these challenging school districts outside Atlanta. Poor thing lasted exactly one year before deciding to head to Oregon with her boyfriend, where she could do all the good she wanted without out interacting with reality.

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  86. @Escher
    How about the NBA lowers the height of the basketball rim, to reduce the unfair advantage of tall men and those who can jump high?

    Yeah, but lowering the rim wouldn’t eliminate the advantage tall people have. It could reduce the advantage tallness has at the extreme of the distribution vis-a-vis other athletic attributes, but I doubt it wold help short people very much.

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    • Replies: @Escher
    The point was to illustrate the double standard of lowering the bar for certain fields of human endeavor, while keeping it high (literally in this case) for others.
    If the rim is low enough, height will no longer be an advantage for scoring baskets, and may even become a hindrance.
    If the Teachers' test standards are sufficiently lowered, even high school dropouts will be eligible to teach.
  87. @ben tillman

    Putting aside the racial gap for a moment, what to make of the high failure rate overall? Is the test that hard, or is the pool of applicants that poor?
     
    The test sucks. It is extremely poorly designed.

    You can find a sample online:

    www.nyit.edu/files/uploads/00/ALST%20Sample.pdf

    I love how the first reading passage in that test is all about how wealthy and wonderful the Steins were. You can’t even get past the first sentence before you’re hit with “German Jewish immigrant who had made a fortune.”

    With all the prose passages in the world to chose from, somehow this one gets, ahem, chosen.

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  88. @Kaz
    Or it's because he can't stop himself from saying stupid shit like Barack Obama wiretapped Trump Tower SAD.

    It probably wasn’t Obama personally who ordered it and by the way, no ‘wires’ were tapped, there was just ordinary digital surveillance, bigots!

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  89. @Jack D

    Look, the average math teacher in twenty states with average difficulty math credential tests has an SAT math score of about 580 (2005-2015 version). This doesn’t include California and NY, both states with much harder credential tests. So no, math teachers aren’t teaching algebra to students who know more than they do, even in extraordinary schools, much less ordinary ones.
     
    This seems to be a non-sequitur. If the teachers are scoring 580 and they have students who score much higher (these certainly exist in "extraordinary schools"), then at the very least the students are smarter than their teachers (and might even know more math).

    My daughter was (is) very gifted at math so it always seemed strange to me that the nice white lady who was the head of the math dept. at my daughter's school really didn't seem to like her (while most of her teachers loved her). It occurred to me just now that this lady felt threatened by my daughter's intelligence.

    Teachers need not be supersmart, and god knows they’re not, but they should at least have the intelligence and ethics to send on smarter students to more challenging work when they can’t provide it.

    Read More
  90. @Spotted Toad
    A few years ago, there was a similar panic when it was found out that Boston's new teacher evaluation system, based on student test scores as well as observations of teachers, was giving too many black teachers the lowest (firable) score. The funny part was that it also was giving many more male teachers and older teachers the lowest score.

    https://ies.ed.gov/ncee/edlabs/regions/northeast/pdf/REL_2017189.pdf

    Must be quite fundable to tease those apart using the very latest version of Excel so that the rest are kept when the male teachers are fired.

    Read More
  91. @Jonathan Silber
    Make Illiterates Great Again--for the children!

    Make Illiterates Great Again–for the children!

    #MEGA

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  92. “580 is a pretty sucky SAT math score. I wouldn’t want anyone like that teaching math beyond elementary school.”

    580 is above the average for all college grads. And relatively few people posting here managed much higher. Ignorance, again.

    “An IQ of 105 is, by definition, above average. Ignorance is another matter. What the heck are going on about?”

    It’s above average for all Americans. ES teachers are just under the average for college graduates; high school teachers in academics solidly above average in their field.

    There are also quite a few actual smart teachers; every year I checked, the GRE had 10-20% 700+ scores. Haven’t checked recently.

    BTW, those talking about how teachers “used” to be smart pre-feminism–the actual average is about the same. Fewer women from the top echelons, but more men from the above average.

    “They realized that they couldn’t get rid of the incompetent (mostly black) teachers because of the union so they paid those teachers to sit around while they hired better ones. ”

    That’s not actually what happened, but in any event the scores didn’t go up. Smarter teachers didn’t lead to better outcomes.

    “My daughter was (is) very gifted at math so it always seemed strange to me that the nice white lady who was the head of the math dept. at my daughter’s school really didn’t seem to like her (while most of her teachers loved her). It occurred to me just now that this lady felt threatened by my daughter’s intelligence.”

    Yes, that must be it. The math teacher was terrified of your daughter’s brilliance. And it just now occurred to you.

    The “teachers hated my kid because (s)he was sooooo smart” is a common trope. I have a smart kid and am pleased that even though he went to high school before I started teaching, even though he had a GPA considerably lower than his test scores suggested, I never resorted to such pabulum.

    ” The funny part was that it also was giving many more male teachers and older teachers the lowest score.”

    Principal evaluations alone lead to male teachers (ES) and older teachers being canned. Pretty common.

    Joey–that sounds a lot like grammar, show & tell, and math word problems.

    “I mean, how many white teachers are there in Detroit, Atlanta, and Washington DC these days?”

    A lot. They use charters.

    So much ignorance, but I have to go to work now.

    And I don’t see what is wrong with that test. Perfectly reasonable.

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    • Agree: Coemgen
    • Replies: @Desiderius

    And relatively few people posting here managed much higher. Ignorance, again.
     
    You're not wrong on your general point about teachers, who tend to be plenty smart but not as wise and savvy as they used to be, but my guess is that you're mistaken on this narrow point.
    , @res

    580 is above the average for all college grads. And relatively few people posting here managed much higher.
     
    I would take that bet. And probably be willing to offer odds. I would say you thinking otherwise says more about you than it does about the other posters here. Also, any data for the grads? I was unable to find support for that 580 math with a search and the declared major entering numbers I saw were much lower.

    The “teachers hated my kid because (s)he was sooooo smart” is a common trope. I have a smart kid and am pleased that even though he went to high school before I started teaching, even though he had a GPA considerably lower than his test scores suggested, I never resorted to such pabulum.
     
    Good for you. Just for perspective, how smart was your kid? IIRC Jack D's daughter is/was SMPY smart (i.e. top fractional percent, 0.01?, or "farm team smart" as I think we called it earlier ; ). Some teachers feel threatened by kids who are that smart. I can even understand that somewhat. We all make mistakes and being corrected (accurately) or challenged by a child is hard on the ego (especially if the child's tactfulness is not on a par with their intellect). Happily such teachers seem to be a small minority, but that does not mean they don't exist. And it can be incredibly destructive when such a child encounters such a teacher.
    , @Autochthon
    Agreed for the most part. The business about teachers resenting smart kids is especially ridiculous: teachers adore brilliant students; they live for it. Even as a jaded professor of law I did.
    , @Oleaginous Outrager

    580 is above the average for all college grads
     
    Really? I scored 600 on the (old) SAT, and math was my worst subject.

    Of course, the whole kerfuffle is irrelevant, because the only measure of a teacher is what their students achieve.
  93. @education realist
    "580 is a pretty sucky SAT math score. I wouldn’t want anyone like that teaching math beyond elementary school."

    580 is above the average for all college grads. And relatively few people posting here managed much higher. Ignorance, again.


    "An IQ of 105 is, by definition, above average. Ignorance is another matter. What the heck are going on about?"

    It's above average for all Americans. ES teachers are just under the average for college graduates; high school teachers in academics solidly above average in their field.

    There are also quite a few actual smart teachers; every year I checked, the GRE had 10-20% 700+ scores. Haven't checked recently.

    BTW, those talking about how teachers "used" to be smart pre-feminism--the actual average is about the same. Fewer women from the top echelons, but more men from the above average.

    "They realized that they couldn’t get rid of the incompetent (mostly black) teachers because of the union so they paid those teachers to sit around while they hired better ones. "

    That's not actually what happened, but in any event the scores didn't go up. Smarter teachers didn't lead to better outcomes.

    "My daughter was (is) very gifted at math so it always seemed strange to me that the nice white lady who was the head of the math dept. at my daughter’s school really didn’t seem to like her (while most of her teachers loved her). It occurred to me just now that this lady felt threatened by my daughter’s intelligence."

    Yes, that must be it. The math teacher was terrified of your daughter's brilliance. And it just now occurred to you.

    The "teachers hated my kid because (s)he was sooooo smart" is a common trope. I have a smart kid and am pleased that even though he went to high school before I started teaching, even though he had a GPA considerably lower than his test scores suggested, I never resorted to such pabulum.


    " The funny part was that it also was giving many more male teachers and older teachers the lowest score."

    Principal evaluations alone lead to male teachers (ES) and older teachers being canned. Pretty common.

    Joey--that sounds a lot like grammar, show & tell, and math word problems.

    "I mean, how many white teachers are there in Detroit, Atlanta, and Washington DC these days?"

    A lot. They use charters.

    So much ignorance, but I have to go to work now.

    And I don't see what is wrong with that test. Perfectly reasonable.

    And relatively few people posting here managed much higher. Ignorance, again.

    You’re not wrong on your general point about teachers, who tend to be plenty smart but not as wise and savvy as they used to be, but my guess is that you’re mistaken on this narrow point.

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  94. @Opinionator
    That leads to Jewish quotas, which have proven unpalatable. See the Ivy League pre-WW2 for examples. It’s still considered one of the key pieces of American antisemitism that Harvard stopped 2% of the population from exceeding 10% of the student body.

    Interesting use of the passive voice and appeal to ... whom? ... throughout your comment.

    "which have proven unpalatable"

    "It's still considered"

    Quite true. Nearly every statement about policy or politics needs to be read with an implicit “to whom”.

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  95. @Of course it was
    PJ O'rourke put it well: anyone who's banged an El.Ed. major knows exactly what's wrong with education.

    For the record, I've never banged one myself. Couldn't stoop that low.

    PJ O’Rourke endorsed Hillary, so he’s capable of stooping extremely low.

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  96. @joeyjoejoe
    "Today’s 9 year olds don’t do finger painting. They’re immersed in language studies, active literacy, presentation skills and arithmetic. Their teachers should be at a minimum competent in these areas. I’d suggest a minimum teacher IQ of no less than their student’s IQ.
    You don’t have much of a clue as to what 9 year olds do, which is somewhat more advanced than finger painting, but not as, er, ambitious as you pretend."

    My second grade eight year old, last night, had homework in which he had to identify the subject-predicate of sentences.
    He has had two presentations this year (admittedly pretty low standard)-one on a family heirloom, I can't remember the subject of the other. They aren't just 'stand up and talk.' They are graded in terms of whether they address particular questions, maintain eye contact, etc etc.
    His math homework goes like this: '152 kids like blue flowers. 229 kids like red flowers. 237 kids like green flowers. How many more kids like red and blue flowers than green flowers?' (this is the exact problem, with numbers made up because I can't remember them, that he had last night).

    We are in a quasi-rural area of flyover country, though the school is Catholic.

    joeyjoejoe

    My 7 year old first grader brings home math like this:

    9+X+4=18

    Algebra in the 1st grade.

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  97. @Polynices
    An analogy I don't see used enough is that comparing HBD-clueless with HBD-aware perspectives is like the difference between the Ptolemaic (i.e. geocentric) model of the universe and the Copernican (i.e. heliocentric) model.

    The people who thought the sun and planets revolved around the earth had to come up with increasingly complicated mechanisms called "epicycles" that could kinda sorta barely explain what they saw but had to get more and more complicated over time to explain the continuing better and better observations of the actual universe. Everything was simple to understand and explain if you just threw out the Ptolemaic model and adopted a earth-goes-around-the-sun view. But believers in the old model couldn't do that and persisted in using complicated explanations that failed to properly explain the world around them. Sound familiar?

    They also burned heretics but nothing like that could ever happen today...

    An analogy I don’t see used enough is that comparing HBD-clueless with HBD-aware perspectives is like the difference between the Ptolemaic (i.e. geocentric) model of the universe and the Copernican (i.e. heliocentric) model.

    You can find a useful discussion about those models here: https://farside.ph.utexas.edu/books/Syntaxis/Almagest/node1.html

    It points out that there is a lot of ignorance surrounding the usual claims about those two.

    Further, the reality is that for 99.999 percent of people alive today (and probably 99.999999999 percent of people who have ever lived) it make little difference whether the geocentric or heliocentric or some other model is correct. That is, it is unlikely to cause your death if you do not know the correct model unless you happen to meet a homicidal astronomer.

    On the other hand, not understanding some important things about HBD can lead to an awful death for young white women (and men) and has done so here in America and elsewhere.

    It’s almost as if there is a conspiracy among the elites to have people obsess inordinately over irrelevant truths rather than understand more relevant truths.

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  98. @Rapparee

    "A federal judge ruled in 2015 that the test was not discriminatory, but faculty members at education schools say a test that screens out so many minorities is problematic."
     
    "Problematic" seems to have come to mean "If I clearly and explicitly spell out what I believe to be the problem, my reasoning will sound incredibly shallow and stupid, so instead I shall vaguely imply the existence of some hidden malice, and let your imagination fill in the gaps".

    Well done, sir!

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  99. @O'Really
    Putting aside the racial gap for a moment, what to make of the high failure rate overall? Is the test that hard, or is the pool of applicants that poor? The title of the test suggests it is measuring basic literacy. If so, these results are alarming at multiple levels.

    The GRE scores of education majors are much lower than those of every other major. On the average, they are not intelligent.

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  100. @Clyde
    I happen to be reading last posts first here....I knew that was East-West without looking at donut's post. All I gotta say is MAGA!

    Clyde, my first love is classical music. Most modern music seems very flimsy and insubstantial to me. But I’ve been in love with Bloomfield’s playing since I first heard Super Session well over 40 years ago. His artistry is unmistakable and unforgettable. All I can say is OMG.

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    • Replies: @Clyde
    Load classical on your mp3 player and take a hike! Or a fast walk.

    I heard Super Sessions being played everywhere for six months back then. I have my red agptek-2016 model mp3 player (found at ebay and Amazon) loaded with similar stuff from that era /Stones/Doors/Flying Burrito Brothers/Cream etc when I fast walk for an hour, my favorite form of exercise. You download the mp3s from you tube. Fast walk w 40lb weighted vest=running. I know the best form of exercise for over 50 and 60. But I'm not going to kill any electrons throwing pearls before so called Unzite swine unless asked.

    Someone here mentioned "What I Talk About When I Talk About Running: A Memoir" 2009 by Haruki Murakami

    So I went and read it. Excellent book
  101. Test meant to screen teachers instead weeded out minorities

    That title gives me a chuckle: “Process meant to do something confounds users by working.”

    That’s a pretty run-of-the-mill racial gap: about 0.58 standard deviations between whites and blacks.

    That smells like 1) a relatively easy/bad test, or 2) a relatively left-shifted bell curve for test-takers as a whole, or both.

    Meritocracy = racist is a bitter pill to swallow.

    Racial Equality = all Whites are racist, unto the umpteenth generation, is candy-coated goodness. But then, NAMs are used to Whites being the adults in the room.

    An analogy I don’t see used enough is that comparing HBD-clueless with HBD-aware perspectives is like the difference between the Ptolemaic (i.e. geocentric) model of the universe and the Copernican (i.e. heliocentric) model.

    Probably because good analogies refer to “controls” that the listener is familiar with. While I suppose most are familiar with the existence of your “control,” I doubt that awareness extends to any details. In other words, try not to educate with both ends of an analogy.

    It’s good for the well-educated, though.

    This piece is childish and very long but it’s instructive in its massive dumb wrongitude. Early on he claims that it’s blue states which have “absorbed the most destitute, unskilled, and oppressed portions of your populations…” when the truth is that the major internal migration in America is from the sclerotic northeast to the sunbelt. There are many other errors …it’s a contender for epic incoherent rant of the month and he got paid to write it.

    Will stipulate for secession. It’s all our fault.

    Yes, that must be it. The math teacher was terrified of your daughter’s brilliance. And it just now occurred to you.

    The “teachers hated my kid because (s)he was sooooo smart” is a common trope. I have a smart kid and am pleased that even though he went to high school before I started teaching, even though he had a GPA considerably lower than his test scores suggested, I never resorted to such pabulum.

    You seem smart enough to suss out your own conflation. Most of my teachers would never have felt threatened by a smart student; on the other hand, one pretty obviously was (as well as being stupid), and was cruel on occasion over it.

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  102. @Bugg
    Ryan going on "Tucker" and babbling his usual nonsense as Carlson looked at him as if he had 2 heads was the beginning of the end. May be not today or this month but at some point Ryan's cluelessness in all this will end him. Not sure if this is Trump or Bannon's handiwork or if Ryan is simply that foolish. Trump and the GOP cannot replace Obamacare with something even worse.

    I don’t see a solution to the Obamacare situation. When conservatives suggests that selling insurance across state lines and Health Savings Accounts (HSA) are going to make all the difference, they’re kidding themselves. Insurance costs what it’s going to cost, state lines notwithstanding. I used to have an HSA and every year I would spend all the tax-deferred savings in it on our medical bills.

    Rush Limbaugh, who is so rich that he probably just pays out-of-pocket for everything, thinks we have to leave it to the free market. Ah, yes. With my wife, daughter, and me on the best free market plan we could buy in 2012, I was paying nearly $1,200 a month, with two $10,000 deductibles having to be met before all costs would be covered. Theoretically, we could each spend $9,999 on medical costs above the ~$14,000 in annual premiums, or nearly $41,000, before coverage kicked in. In other words, chicken feed for Limbaugh, but ruinous for people like us.

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    • Replies: @Bugg
    The muddle Obamacare purported to correct is always going to be an issue. Improvements in medical technology translates not only in people living longer but more end of life care extending it even further. Nobody is going to be completely happy and costs are going to go up any way you cut it. But selling across state lines and ending illegals using the ER as their primary care physicians would go a long way to correcting some of it.

    To the first point, one example; my mom is a retired NYC school teacher and 75 years old. Her life revolves around medical appointments for various aliments, some potentially serious, some not. Many stem for 4+ decades of smoking . Based on her mom and her aunts, who all smoked and lived to 90+, genetically she has a good shot at 80+ at least. I love my mom, and hope she's around a lot longer, but she is not unusual. Sarah Palin spent much of 2008 screeching about death panels. However the obverse of that is give elderly people every last available care without considering cost benefits and their age.On that one thing, Obamacare was largely correct; somebody has to be the bad guy and say , "Sorry, you are in fact old. If you want soup to nuts medical treatment, you pay for extraordinary care". But that won't happen because old people vote.

    Should add my mom probably has the $5 bills from her 1st Communion in addition to a great pension and annuities and investments. We are not allowed to say out loud that we are indulging the elderly who can most afford to pay for their health care at the expense of young people who barely need it and working families who can barely afford it.
  103. @Jack D
    A few years ago, Corey Booker talked Zuckerberg into donating $100 million to the Newark public schools. They realized that they couldn't get rid of the incompetent (mostly black) teachers because of the union so they paid those teachers to sit around while they hired better ones. Eventually the $ ran out and the next head of the school system ran on a platform of putting things back to the old way and running the school system as a jobs program for blacks. He won.

    Newark schools used to contain Magic Dirt, when guys like Philip Roth attended. But then the Magic Dirt lost its magic and now, no matter how much $ they spend trying to bring it back, the magic won't return. Magic Dirt makes at least as much sense as the mainstream explanations. Murray's explanation is racist and completely unacceptable and the mainstream doesn't really have a good explanation (mumble something about "problematic") so Magic Dirt is the way to go.

    The great science fiction writer Larry Niven could explain that White people indeed depleted the supply of Magic Dirt in Newark and other cities, then moved on to the suburbs in search of fresh Magic Dirt, leaving Black folk ignorant and impoverished. That is why we need Section 8 to move them out to where there is still Magic Dirt.

    Decades before Steve coined “Magic Dirt”, Larry Niven wrote a fiction series The Magic Goes Away that postulated a scientific explanation for humanity’s stories about magic being real. Dirt really was magical and used to have a physical property that people and beings with talent could draw on to do magic. In pre-history, there were gods, demons, unicorns, dragons, wizards, castles floating in the air and all the rest of it. Unfortunately, the magic property was a finite resource and using it eventually depleted the local supply. Wizards moved around to keep practicing magic until it was almost all used up, and gargoyles turned to stone, the flying castles crashed to earth and dragons turned to dinosaur fossils. Humanity adapted to the dwindling of magic, but the last wizards, most of whom were incredibly ancient would die without magic, so they convened in a last desperate attempt to find a solution.
    They saw the moon as a new resource for magic, after all even a non-magician can look up at it and feel the magic, so they figured they would use the last remaining large store of magic on earth, a sleeping god to pull the moon down to earth to be exploited. Being weak on science, including astronomy, they had no idea how that little circle in the sky was really another planet and that doing so would re-liquefy the earth’s crust and wipe out life. Disaster was narrowly averted and the last magic died away.

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  104. @Harry Baldwin
    I don't see a solution to the Obamacare situation. When conservatives suggests that selling insurance across state lines and Health Savings Accounts (HSA) are going to make all the difference, they're kidding themselves. Insurance costs what it's going to cost, state lines notwithstanding. I used to have an HSA and every year I would spend all the tax-deferred savings in it on our medical bills.

    Rush Limbaugh, who is so rich that he probably just pays out-of-pocket for everything, thinks we have to leave it to the free market. Ah, yes. With my wife, daughter, and me on the best free market plan we could buy in 2012, I was paying nearly $1,200 a month, with two $10,000 deductibles having to be met before all costs would be covered. Theoretically, we could each spend $9,999 on medical costs above the ~$14,000 in annual premiums, or nearly $41,000, before coverage kicked in. In other words, chicken feed for Limbaugh, but ruinous for people like us.

    The muddle Obamacare purported to correct is always going to be an issue. Improvements in medical technology translates not only in people living longer but more end of life care extending it even further. Nobody is going to be completely happy and costs are going to go up any way you cut it. But selling across state lines and ending illegals using the ER as their primary care physicians would go a long way to correcting some of it.

    To the first point, one example; my mom is a retired NYC school teacher and 75 years old. Her life revolves around medical appointments for various aliments, some potentially serious, some not. Many stem for 4+ decades of smoking . Based on her mom and her aunts, who all smoked and lived to 90+, genetically she has a good shot at 80+ at least. I love my mom, and hope she’s around a lot longer, but she is not unusual. Sarah Palin spent much of 2008 screeching about death panels. However the obverse of that is give elderly people every last available care without considering cost benefits and their age.On that one thing, Obamacare was largely correct; somebody has to be the bad guy and say , “Sorry, you are in fact old. If you want soup to nuts medical treatment, you pay for extraordinary care”. But that won’t happen because old people vote.

    Should add my mom probably has the $5 bills from her 1st Communion in addition to a great pension and annuities and investments. We are not allowed to say out loud that we are indulging the elderly who can most afford to pay for their health care at the expense of young people who barely need it and working families who can barely afford it.

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    • Replies: @Opinionator

    “Sorry, you are in fact old. If you want soup to nuts medical treatment, you pay for extraordinary care”. But that won’t happen because old people vote.
     
    Sure, but the country can import enough young immigrants to, along with the offspring of immigrants, outvote them.
  105. Decades before Steve coined “Magic Dirt”,

    So, Steve didn’t. Vox Day coined the modern term: http://infogalactic.com/info/Vox_Day#Memes

    However, the Chinese coined it first, it seems, more than 2,000 years ago. 水土。

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    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    I or maybe a commenter here came up with tragic dirt to compare to Vox Day's magic dirt.
    , @Desiderius
    See also:

    This royal throne of kings, this sceptred isle,
    This earth of majesty, this seat of Mars,
    This other Eden, demi-paradise,
    This fortress built by Nature for herself
    Against infection and the hand of war,
    This happy breed of men, this little world,
    This precious stone set in the silver sea,
    Which serves it in the office of a wall
    Or as a moat defensive to a house,
    Against the envy of less happier lands,--
    This blessed plot, this earth, this realm, this England.

    - William Shakespeare, "King Richard II", Act 2 scene 1
  106. @Peripatetic commenter

    Decades before Steve coined “Magic Dirt”,
     
    So, Steve didn't. Vox Day coined the modern term: http://infogalactic.com/info/Vox_Day#Memes

    However, the Chinese coined it first, it seems, more than 2,000 years ago. 水土。

    I or maybe a commenter here came up with tragic dirt to compare to Vox Day’s magic dirt.

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    • Replies: @Peripatetic commenter
    You are credited with the term "Tragic Dirt" on your Infogalactic page.
  107. @Bryan
    Yeah, but lowering the rim wouldn't eliminate the advantage tall people have. It could reduce the advantage tallness has at the extreme of the distribution vis-a-vis other athletic attributes, but I doubt it wold help short people very much.

    The point was to illustrate the double standard of lowering the bar for certain fields of human endeavor, while keeping it high (literally in this case) for others.
    If the rim is low enough, height will no longer be an advantage for scoring baskets, and may even become a hindrance.
    If the Teachers’ test standards are sufficiently lowered, even high school dropouts will be eligible to teach.

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  108. @Steve Sailer
    I or maybe a commenter here came up with tragic dirt to compare to Vox Day's magic dirt.

    You are credited with the term “Tragic Dirt” on your Infogalactic page.

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  109. The GRE scores of ed majors are kind of pointless. The GRE scores of people planning to be teachers are relevant. ES are below average, HS is way above average for verbal and just a bit below average for math–but then, that’s all high school teachers. 20% of high school teachers tested above 700 in quant. That’s from a decade ago, but standards are generally higher today.

    On the “relative” ability of the commentariat here. 580 is in the top 40% of the population. That’s perfectly respectable.

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  110. @Escher
    How about the NBA lowers the height of the basketball rim, to reduce the unfair advantage of tall men and those who can jump high?

    I actually think they should raise it 6 inches or so since it seems to be so easy for guys to dunk the ball. There’s an upper limit to height and athletic ability, and I think we’ve reached it. It’s past time to make the rim higher to compensate for so many 6’10″ guys who dominate now.

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  111. All of my Senior engineering students will be taking the Fundamentals of Engineering test this year. Pass or you will never become a licensed Professional Engineer in four years and after another examination. I find this lack of rigor in Education to be amazing.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Teachers are not tested even as well as aircraft mechanics, maybe not even as well as bus mechanics. I think the average vo tech student is at least as smart as the average ed major in most universities.

    (Former Adjunct at KU Edwards Center and substitute Instructor at AIM Kansas City!)

  112. @education realist
    "580 is a pretty sucky SAT math score. I wouldn’t want anyone like that teaching math beyond elementary school."

    580 is above the average for all college grads. And relatively few people posting here managed much higher. Ignorance, again.


    "An IQ of 105 is, by definition, above average. Ignorance is another matter. What the heck are going on about?"

    It's above average for all Americans. ES teachers are just under the average for college graduates; high school teachers in academics solidly above average in their field.

    There are also quite a few actual smart teachers; every year I checked, the GRE had 10-20% 700+ scores. Haven't checked recently.

    BTW, those talking about how teachers "used" to be smart pre-feminism--the actual average is about the same. Fewer women from the top echelons, but more men from the above average.

    "They realized that they couldn’t get rid of the incompetent (mostly black) teachers because of the union so they paid those teachers to sit around while they hired better ones. "

    That's not actually what happened, but in any event the scores didn't go up. Smarter teachers didn't lead to better outcomes.

    "My daughter was (is) very gifted at math so it always seemed strange to me that the nice white lady who was the head of the math dept. at my daughter’s school really didn’t seem to like her (while most of her teachers loved her). It occurred to me just now that this lady felt threatened by my daughter’s intelligence."

    Yes, that must be it. The math teacher was terrified of your daughter's brilliance. And it just now occurred to you.

    The "teachers hated my kid because (s)he was sooooo smart" is a common trope. I have a smart kid and am pleased that even though he went to high school before I started teaching, even though he had a GPA considerably lower than his test scores suggested, I never resorted to such pabulum.


    " The funny part was that it also was giving many more male teachers and older teachers the lowest score."

    Principal evaluations alone lead to male teachers (ES) and older teachers being canned. Pretty common.

    Joey--that sounds a lot like grammar, show & tell, and math word problems.

    "I mean, how many white teachers are there in Detroit, Atlanta, and Washington DC these days?"

    A lot. They use charters.

    So much ignorance, but I have to go to work now.

    And I don't see what is wrong with that test. Perfectly reasonable.

    580 is above the average for all college grads. And relatively few people posting here managed much higher.

    I would take that bet. And probably be willing to offer odds. I would say you thinking otherwise says more about you than it does about the other posters here. Also, any data for the grads? I was unable to find support for that 580 math with a search and the declared major entering numbers I saw were much lower.

    The “teachers hated my kid because (s)he was sooooo smart” is a common trope. I have a smart kid and am pleased that even though he went to high school before I started teaching, even though he had a GPA considerably lower than his test scores suggested, I never resorted to such pabulum.

    Good for you. Just for perspective, how smart was your kid? IIRC Jack D’s daughter is/was SMPY smart (i.e. top fractional percent, 0.01?, or “farm team smart” as I think we called it earlier ; ). Some teachers feel threatened by kids who are that smart. I can even understand that somewhat. We all make mistakes and being corrected (accurately) or challenged by a child is hard on the ego (especially if the child’s tactfulness is not on a par with their intellect). Happily such teachers seem to be a small minority, but that does not mean they don’t exist. And it can be incredibly destructive when such a child encounters such a teacher.

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  113. @Bastion
    My wife did an advanced teaching degree in NY. She wanted to change careers and has a BS in an engineering discipline. She took this test. In her estimation, if you speak American English reasonably well and can do basic arithmetic reasonably well you would have no difficulty in passing. It's a very low hurdle. The fact that a lot of sub-90 IQ applicants would be weeded would be a feature rather than a bug in a sane culture. But of course our culture has gone insane and so we have hand wringing.

    Until we reform/destroy the educational system there is little hope that we can turn things around.

    Roger that, Bastion.

    I actually took the NY teachers’ test. It’s “a very low hurdle”, indeed.

    Most teachers in the public school systems in New York State are pathetic. So are most of the students, since well-to-do and intelligent parents send their children to private or parochial schools if at all possible. The two-bit politicians on the school boards are largely ignorant, preening jackasses.

    Which is the bigger waste of taxpayers’ money, the military/industrial /security complex or the public school systems? It’s a tough call.

    We must abolish public schools as soon as possible. They are mostly Big Brother’s indoctrination camps for kiddies.

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  114. @Bugg
    The muddle Obamacare purported to correct is always going to be an issue. Improvements in medical technology translates not only in people living longer but more end of life care extending it even further. Nobody is going to be completely happy and costs are going to go up any way you cut it. But selling across state lines and ending illegals using the ER as their primary care physicians would go a long way to correcting some of it.

    To the first point, one example; my mom is a retired NYC school teacher and 75 years old. Her life revolves around medical appointments for various aliments, some potentially serious, some not. Many stem for 4+ decades of smoking . Based on her mom and her aunts, who all smoked and lived to 90+, genetically she has a good shot at 80+ at least. I love my mom, and hope she's around a lot longer, but she is not unusual. Sarah Palin spent much of 2008 screeching about death panels. However the obverse of that is give elderly people every last available care without considering cost benefits and their age.On that one thing, Obamacare was largely correct; somebody has to be the bad guy and say , "Sorry, you are in fact old. If you want soup to nuts medical treatment, you pay for extraordinary care". But that won't happen because old people vote.

    Should add my mom probably has the $5 bills from her 1st Communion in addition to a great pension and annuities and investments. We are not allowed to say out loud that we are indulging the elderly who can most afford to pay for their health care at the expense of young people who barely need it and working families who can barely afford it.

    “Sorry, you are in fact old. If you want soup to nuts medical treatment, you pay for extraordinary care”. But that won’t happen because old people vote.

    Sure, but the country can import enough young immigrants to, along with the offspring of immigrants, outvote them.

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  115. @dr kill
    Education is managed as a jobs program for Democrat voters, nothing more. This is the only success that counts. Student achievement means nothing.

    Yes, a jobs program for adults providing day care to adolescents. Teacher “qualifications” and student “proficiency” test scores are lowered until sufficient and acceptable numbers “pass.” Actual learning is a secondary by-product of the system. Lake Woebegon for dummies.

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  116. @for-the-record

    Teachers are not that smart. 105 iq or so on average, bottom of the college graduate range.
     
    Maybe not now, but in my day (pre-women's lib) I had some fantastically talented teachers.

    “Some,” now, too. Teaching is still a calling, and as such draws some of the best people, despite the fact that it’s an objectively crappy profession.

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  117. @International Jew
    Yikes. I just flunked the first section — the reading comprehension part. It seemed like there were two and even three decent choices for each question.

    But it's weird. The reading passage itself seems off somehow, imprecise with its language. Starting with "well-rounded" in fact. Also, I don't understand the "idea and hope" thing. And why the "however" in the middle of the first paragraph??

    Whoever wrote the multiple choice answers is either a lot smarter than me, or as bad a reader as the author is a writer.

    The test is fine. You’re thinking too hard about the answers. When it comes to reading comprehension tests, one can rationalize many or all answers to be somehow “correct.” The point of the test is to see if you can apply Ockham’s Razor to discover the most obviously correct answer, the one that requires the least amount of rationalization.

    That said, I think language arts tests should stick to analogies and a timed writing section.

    /780 GRE Verbal
    //but don’t ask for my math score

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    • Replies: @International Jew

    /780 GRE Verbal
    //but don’t ask for my math score
     
    I was a hotshot test-taker too, back in the day. So one of us has lost his test-taking mojo.
  118. @joeyjoejoe
    "Today’s 9 year olds don’t do finger painting. They’re immersed in language studies, active literacy, presentation skills and arithmetic. Their teachers should be at a minimum competent in these areas. I’d suggest a minimum teacher IQ of no less than their student’s IQ.
    You don’t have much of a clue as to what 9 year olds do, which is somewhat more advanced than finger painting, but not as, er, ambitious as you pretend."

    My second grade eight year old, last night, had homework in which he had to identify the subject-predicate of sentences.
    He has had two presentations this year (admittedly pretty low standard)-one on a family heirloom, I can't remember the subject of the other. They aren't just 'stand up and talk.' They are graded in terms of whether they address particular questions, maintain eye contact, etc etc.
    His math homework goes like this: '152 kids like blue flowers. 229 kids like red flowers. 237 kids like green flowers. How many more kids like red and blue flowers than green flowers?' (this is the exact problem, with numbers made up because I can't remember them, that he had last night).

    We are in a quasi-rural area of flyover country, though the school is Catholic.

    joeyjoejoe

    We did sentence diagramming in second-grade (Mrs. Jacobs’ class) in 1978, midwest public school, as well as three digit subtraction (carrying being the new thing). Teaching practical techniques like maintaining eye contact is a useful addition to the curriculum, and second-grade is the perfect time to hit it – that’s the age when students discover their peers/when poor teachers waste a lot of time yelling about students talking.

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  119. @Peripatetic commenter

    Decades before Steve coined “Magic Dirt”,
     
    So, Steve didn't. Vox Day coined the modern term: http://infogalactic.com/info/Vox_Day#Memes

    However, the Chinese coined it first, it seems, more than 2,000 years ago. 水土。

    See also:

    This royal throne of kings, this sceptred isle,
    This earth of majesty, this seat of Mars,
    This other Eden, demi-paradise,
    This fortress built by Nature for herself
    Against infection and the hand of war,
    This happy breed of men, this little world,
    This precious stone set in the silver sea,
    Which serves it in the office of a wall
    Or as a moat defensive to a house,
    Against the envy of less happier lands,–
    This blessed plot, this earth, this realm, this England.

    - William Shakespeare, “King Richard II”, Act 2 scene 1

    Read More
    • Replies: @Dan Hayes
    Desiderius,

    Well, if you are going to quote English propaganda you might as well quote the best!
    , @Peripatetic commenter
    Well, I think that piece by Shakespeare is different to what I was thinking of. I was thinking of a story called:

    晏子使楚

    Here is the money quote from a modern rendition:

    大王,让我给您打个比方吧,橘树生在淮河以南就叫橘,生长在淮河以北就叫枳,叶儿差不多,但是味道不一样,为什么呢?因为水土不同。百姓在齐国的时候不偷东西,到了楚国就偷东西,这恐怕也是因为水土不同吧?

     

    Here, 晏子 (Yan2zi3--circa 500BC from Qi2guo2) who had been captured by Chu3guo2 (楚国) had been called on to answer as to why another captive from 齐国 (Qi2guo2) stole things and it was suggested that people from Qi2guo were all thieves.

    He appeals to mandarins (橘-ju2) and trifoliate oranges (枳-zhi3) claiming that they are the same and the difference in taste us due to the environment they were raised in not being the same (水土不同.) 水土 is literally water and earth. However, they were clearly unaware that those two are different species.

    He then uses the difference in environment to claim that someone from Qi2guo2 would not be a thief at home but when transported to a different environment he would become one.

    Seems to me to be the earliest invocation of the theory of magic dirt.

    , @Peripatetic commenter

    Which serves it in the office of a wall
     
    Well, clearly he was racist!
  120. @education realist
    "580 is a pretty sucky SAT math score. I wouldn’t want anyone like that teaching math beyond elementary school."

    580 is above the average for all college grads. And relatively few people posting here managed much higher. Ignorance, again.


    "An IQ of 105 is, by definition, above average. Ignorance is another matter. What the heck are going on about?"

    It's above average for all Americans. ES teachers are just under the average for college graduates; high school teachers in academics solidly above average in their field.

    There are also quite a few actual smart teachers; every year I checked, the GRE had 10-20% 700+ scores. Haven't checked recently.

    BTW, those talking about how teachers "used" to be smart pre-feminism--the actual average is about the same. Fewer women from the top echelons, but more men from the above average.

    "They realized that they couldn’t get rid of the incompetent (mostly black) teachers because of the union so they paid those teachers to sit around while they hired better ones. "

    That's not actually what happened, but in any event the scores didn't go up. Smarter teachers didn't lead to better outcomes.

    "My daughter was (is) very gifted at math so it always seemed strange to me that the nice white lady who was the head of the math dept. at my daughter’s school really didn’t seem to like her (while most of her teachers loved her). It occurred to me just now that this lady felt threatened by my daughter’s intelligence."

    Yes, that must be it. The math teacher was terrified of your daughter's brilliance. And it just now occurred to you.

    The "teachers hated my kid because (s)he was sooooo smart" is a common trope. I have a smart kid and am pleased that even though he went to high school before I started teaching, even though he had a GPA considerably lower than his test scores suggested, I never resorted to such pabulum.


    " The funny part was that it also was giving many more male teachers and older teachers the lowest score."

    Principal evaluations alone lead to male teachers (ES) and older teachers being canned. Pretty common.

    Joey--that sounds a lot like grammar, show & tell, and math word problems.

    "I mean, how many white teachers are there in Detroit, Atlanta, and Washington DC these days?"

    A lot. They use charters.

    So much ignorance, but I have to go to work now.

    And I don't see what is wrong with that test. Perfectly reasonable.

    Agreed for the most part. The business about teachers resenting smart kids is especially ridiculous: teachers adore brilliant students; they live for it. Even as a jaded professor of law I did.

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    • Replies: @res
    Most, not all. Also remember we are talking about primary and secondary school here.
    , @Twinkie

    Even as a jaded professor of law I did.
     
    I was a young history professor, and I agree with this. But being a professor and a primary/secondary school teacher is different. You and I didn't belong to a union (with all the political and ideological agitation that involves). That is not to say university professors aren't prone to ideological agitation, merely that there is certain love of learning/knowledge/sharing that drive people toward doctorates.

    The business about teachers resenting smart kids is especially ridiculous: teachers adore brilliant students; they live for it.
     
    I graduated from Stuyvesant High School, arguably the premier public magnet school in New York City. The caliber of faculty there was much higher compared to average quality NYC public high schools. There were several Ph.D.'s (my favorite mentor was one Dr. Irgang, a combat infantryman in the Korean War, and a superb history teacher who would often rail against Ivy League recruiters "You are my problems! You make it hard for me to educate my pupils!"). Definitely there were many teachers who lived for inculcating brilliant students.

    But there were also numerous teachers who came to Stuyvesant so that they could coast. Worse, some of them actively disliked students who were smarter than they were (not that rare at Stuyvesant) and would go out of their way to make life difficult for them. I can't help but think that it was out of envy and resentment (which is why it rang a bell for me when "education realist" let it slip in one comment in a delighted tone, no less, that she tries to make the lives of her Asian students - whom she claimed she loved in another comment - miserable). For a darkly comedic portrayal of this type of teacher see this film: https://youtu.be/tBgM_Kw6PSM

    So both caricatures - the caring mentor and the resentful loser - have some basis in truth in my experience.
  121. @Twinkie

    I concede that the brightest brown and black people may indeed aspire to be lawyers and physicians.

    I suspect that they don’t succeed, and may well revert to teaching.
     
    Argh no.

    I am very familiar with the administration of several large hospitals and medical practices. At one specialty practice (generally more selective than primary care fields), ALL - I mean 100% - of black physicians failed to pass the Board certification (they had been employed because they were "Board-eligible," which is allowed initially). As the affiliated hospital policy was to require the Board-eligible to be eventually Board-certified in order to continue permanent employment, all these black doctors had to be let go or shunted off to locations/jobs that did not require Board certification. And all those who were let go were employed elsewhere (with less strict requirements). None has gone into teaching primary or secondary schools, as far as I know.

    Since then the said practice has gone through several cycles of this craziness until it finally found a handful of competent black doctors. They are treated extremely well and are compensated better than white and Asian doctors of similar experience level and competence.

    I do not suggest licensed physicians are leaving to teach elementary school; I suggest those aspiring to become phsycians but who fail to do so may wind up as teachers.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    According to the bell curves I have seen, there are (first order guesstimate) ~5000 blacks (including many who are black in name only, perhaps quadroons) smart enough to become physicians legitimately. Whether they also have the self-control and future time orientation to do so is another question.

    On the other hand there are how many ? black doctors practicing in the US? It's more than the bell curves suggest should be even eligible to get a seat in school.
    , @Anonymous

    I do not suggest licensed physicians are leaving to teach elementary school; I suggest those aspiring to become phsycians but who fail to do so may wind up as teachers.
     
    No, they become some lesser professional or if they fail that go into paraprofessional or sales careers. Most of my HS teachers and most of the ones I've dealt with socially were the type that never had any serious higher career plans besides athletics/showbiz/et al. They saw their teachers were mostly a bunch of mooks and got away with it so they figured they would too.
    , @Twinkie

    I do not suggest licensed physicians are leaving to teach elementary school; I suggest those aspiring to become phsycians but who fail to do so may wind up as teachers.
     
    The example of a large medical practice I provided above ought to make you realize that far more blacks who aspire to become a physician than those who possess the qualifications to be so become physicians. In other words, those blacks who should not have been accepted to medical schools are accepted. And after that those blacks who should have been weeded out of medical schools graduate. Would you like to be the dean of a medical school where 90% of black medical students fail to graduate? The outrage would make you a persona non grata very quickly.

    At the end of the day, Board failure rates and the rates of suspension/revocation of licenses will tell you what you need to know.

    Even among those who do not quite make it medical school (despite a thumb, nay, a whole body, on the scale in favor of black applicants) being a teacher is not a fallback career of first resort. There is A LOT of jobs that above average IQ blacks can do that are far more lucrative and less stressful (e.g. dealing with irate parents; test scores; etc.) than being a teacher.
  122. In my opinion pass all the minority test takers and let them teach only to their race. There, I solved the problem of not enough minority teachers and the fact that, apparently, minorities do better with teachers who look like them. We will visit the results in , let’s say, 10 years. Meanwhile in California, Gov. Jerry Brown is proposing legislation that would exempt teachers from having to pay state income tax. The benefit would kick in after teaching for five years. The proposal is an effort to attract more teachers, but why not just pay moving expenses for the NY test takers that fail. There, solved that problem too. Time to go shovel the drive. Any more problems just leave them on my desk.

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  123. War on noticing. War on measuring. War on judgment. War on memory. War on quality. War on honor. War on devotion. War on discernment. Rah rah, support the troops and pray there will be aught left to loot.

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  124. @Desiderius
    See also:

    This royal throne of kings, this sceptred isle,
    This earth of majesty, this seat of Mars,
    This other Eden, demi-paradise,
    This fortress built by Nature for herself
    Against infection and the hand of war,
    This happy breed of men, this little world,
    This precious stone set in the silver sea,
    Which serves it in the office of a wall
    Or as a moat defensive to a house,
    Against the envy of less happier lands,--
    This blessed plot, this earth, this realm, this England.

    - William Shakespeare, "King Richard II", Act 2 scene 1

    Desiderius,

    Well, if you are going to quote English propaganda you might as well quote the best!

    Read More
  125. @Desiderius
    See also:

    This royal throne of kings, this sceptred isle,
    This earth of majesty, this seat of Mars,
    This other Eden, demi-paradise,
    This fortress built by Nature for herself
    Against infection and the hand of war,
    This happy breed of men, this little world,
    This precious stone set in the silver sea,
    Which serves it in the office of a wall
    Or as a moat defensive to a house,
    Against the envy of less happier lands,--
    This blessed plot, this earth, this realm, this England.

    - William Shakespeare, "King Richard II", Act 2 scene 1

    Well, I think that piece by Shakespeare is different to what I was thinking of. I was thinking of a story called:

    晏子使楚

    Here is the money quote from a modern rendition:

    大王,让我给您打个比方吧,橘树生在淮河以南就叫橘,生长在淮河以北就叫枳,叶儿差不多,但是味道不一样,为什么呢?因为水土不同。百姓在齐国的时候不偷东西,到了楚国就偷东西,这恐怕也是因为水土不同吧?

    Here, 晏子 (Yan2zi3–circa 500BC from Qi2guo2) who had been captured by Chu3guo2 (楚国) had been called on to answer as to why another captive from 齐国 (Qi2guo2) stole things and it was suggested that people from Qi2guo were all thieves.

    He appeals to mandarins (橘-ju2) and trifoliate oranges (枳-zhi3) claiming that they are the same and the difference in taste us due to the environment they were raised in not being the same (水土不同.) 水土 is literally water and earth. However, they were clearly unaware that those two are different species.

    He then uses the difference in environment to claim that someone from Qi2guo2 would not be a thief at home but when transported to a different environment he would become one.

    Seems to me to be the earliest invocation of the theory of magic dirt.

    Read More
    • Agree: Daniel Chieh
    • Replies: @Desiderius
    Blessed plot is evocative of magic dirt.
    , @Daniel Chieh
    Was this part of the parable which argued for the strength of fa-jia Legalist institutions?
    , @Jack D
    So blank slatists have been wrong for 2500 years? Note the fallacy - the whole premise of his argument is that if you take a bitter orange and plant it in more favorable soil it will become a sweet orange, while in fact the lack of sweetness is genetic and no amount of favorable soil and water will sweeten it. This could have been printed in the NY Times this week.
    , @Reg Cæsar
    When did magic dirt become "night soil"?
  126. @Autochthon
    Agreed for the most part. The business about teachers resenting smart kids is especially ridiculous: teachers adore brilliant students; they live for it. Even as a jaded professor of law I did.

    Most, not all. Also remember we are talking about primary and secondary school here.

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  127. @AndrewR
    You raise a good question, Gubbler. Lumping white/whiter "Hispanics" in with mestizos and Aztecs makes white Hispanics seem dumber than they arle and brown Hispanics seem smarter than they are. It's time to ditch the Hispanic label completely. And we obviously need to stop including Jews in the huwyt category but we all know that ain't gonna happen.

    > huwyt

    Is this a /pol/ coinage? I’ve seen “huw(h)ite” a couple of places too. Homage to Jared Taylor?

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  128. @Peripatetic commenter
    Well, I think that piece by Shakespeare is different to what I was thinking of. I was thinking of a story called:

    晏子使楚

    Here is the money quote from a modern rendition:

    大王,让我给您打个比方吧,橘树生在淮河以南就叫橘,生长在淮河以北就叫枳,叶儿差不多,但是味道不一样,为什么呢?因为水土不同。百姓在齐国的时候不偷东西,到了楚国就偷东西,这恐怕也是因为水土不同吧?

     

    Here, 晏子 (Yan2zi3--circa 500BC from Qi2guo2) who had been captured by Chu3guo2 (楚国) had been called on to answer as to why another captive from 齐国 (Qi2guo2) stole things and it was suggested that people from Qi2guo were all thieves.

    He appeals to mandarins (橘-ju2) and trifoliate oranges (枳-zhi3) claiming that they are the same and the difference in taste us due to the environment they were raised in not being the same (水土不同.) 水土 is literally water and earth. However, they were clearly unaware that those two are different species.

    He then uses the difference in environment to claim that someone from Qi2guo2 would not be a thief at home but when transported to a different environment he would become one.

    Seems to me to be the earliest invocation of the theory of magic dirt.

    Blessed plot is evocative of magic dirt.

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  129. @Desiderius
    See also:

    This royal throne of kings, this sceptred isle,
    This earth of majesty, this seat of Mars,
    This other Eden, demi-paradise,
    This fortress built by Nature for herself
    Against infection and the hand of war,
    This happy breed of men, this little world,
    This precious stone set in the silver sea,
    Which serves it in the office of a wall
    Or as a moat defensive to a house,
    Against the envy of less happier lands,--
    This blessed plot, this earth, this realm, this England.

    - William Shakespeare, "King Richard II", Act 2 scene 1

    Which serves it in the office of a wall

    Well, clearly he was racist!

    Read More
  130. @Kylie
    Clyde, my first love is classical music. Most modern music seems very flimsy and insubstantial to me. But I've been in love with Bloomfield's playing since I first heard Super Session well over 40 years ago. His artistry is unmistakable and unforgettable. All I can say is OMG.

    Load classical on your mp3 player and take a hike! Or a fast walk.

    I heard Super Sessions being played everywhere for six months back then. I have my red agptek-2016 model mp3 player (found at ebay and Amazon) loaded with similar stuff from that era /Stones/Doors/Flying Burrito Brothers/Cream etc when I fast walk for an hour, my favorite form of exercise. You download the mp3s from you tube. Fast walk w 40lb weighted vest=running. I know the best form of exercise for over 50 and 60. But I’m not going to kill any electrons throwing pearls before so called Unzite swine unless asked.

    Someone here mentioned “What I Talk About When I Talk About Running: A Memoir” 2009 by Haruki Murakami

    So I went and read it. Excellent book

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  131. @Peripatetic commenter
    Well, I think that piece by Shakespeare is different to what I was thinking of. I was thinking of a story called:

    晏子使楚

    Here is the money quote from a modern rendition:

    大王,让我给您打个比方吧,橘树生在淮河以南就叫橘,生长在淮河以北就叫枳,叶儿差不多,但是味道不一样,为什么呢?因为水土不同。百姓在齐国的时候不偷东西,到了楚国就偷东西,这恐怕也是因为水土不同吧?

     

    Here, 晏子 (Yan2zi3--circa 500BC from Qi2guo2) who had been captured by Chu3guo2 (楚国) had been called on to answer as to why another captive from 齐国 (Qi2guo2) stole things and it was suggested that people from Qi2guo were all thieves.

    He appeals to mandarins (橘-ju2) and trifoliate oranges (枳-zhi3) claiming that they are the same and the difference in taste us due to the environment they were raised in not being the same (水土不同.) 水土 is literally water and earth. However, they were clearly unaware that those two are different species.

    He then uses the difference in environment to claim that someone from Qi2guo2 would not be a thief at home but when transported to a different environment he would become one.

    Seems to me to be the earliest invocation of the theory of magic dirt.

    Was this part of the parable which argued for the strength of fa-jia Legalist institutions?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Peripatetic commenter
    I don't know. That is from a student version from iMandarinPod.com.

    It is really from 晏紫春秋 but I have not tracked that down and it may be more than I can deal with.
  132. @AndrewR
    You raise a good question, Gubbler. Lumping white/whiter "Hispanics" in with mestizos and Aztecs makes white Hispanics seem dumber than they arle and brown Hispanics seem smarter than they are. It's time to ditch the Hispanic label completely. And we obviously need to stop including Jews in the huwyt category but we all know that ain't gonna happen.

    So white Hispanics should be reclassified as white but white Jews should be removed from the white category? (I BTW will put my whiteness up against anyone – I am as white as a beluga whale. I sunburn after 30 seconds of exposure. If I was in Africa I would be mistaken for an albino and eaten.)

    I am not unbiased in such matters, but (and I think Trump agrees with me on this – see Stephen Miller, Jared Kushner, etc.) wouldn’t it be better to have smart Jews on your side instead of excluding them from your team?

    Read More
    • Replies: @AndrewR
    You can be in the white supergroup but Jews should always be counted as a distinct group.
    , @Peripatetic commenter

    wouldn’t it be better to have smart Jews on your side instead of excluding them from your team?
     
    If they are willing to integrate and simply be Americans and not have allegiance to another country, sure.
  133. @Peripatetic commenter
    Well, I think that piece by Shakespeare is different to what I was thinking of. I was thinking of a story called:

    晏子使楚

    Here is the money quote from a modern rendition:

    大王,让我给您打个比方吧,橘树生在淮河以南就叫橘,生长在淮河以北就叫枳,叶儿差不多,但是味道不一样,为什么呢?因为水土不同。百姓在齐国的时候不偷东西,到了楚国就偷东西,这恐怕也是因为水土不同吧?

     

    Here, 晏子 (Yan2zi3--circa 500BC from Qi2guo2) who had been captured by Chu3guo2 (楚国) had been called on to answer as to why another captive from 齐国 (Qi2guo2) stole things and it was suggested that people from Qi2guo were all thieves.

    He appeals to mandarins (橘-ju2) and trifoliate oranges (枳-zhi3) claiming that they are the same and the difference in taste us due to the environment they were raised in not being the same (水土不同.) 水土 is literally water and earth. However, they were clearly unaware that those two are different species.

    He then uses the difference in environment to claim that someone from Qi2guo2 would not be a thief at home but when transported to a different environment he would become one.

    Seems to me to be the earliest invocation of the theory of magic dirt.

    So blank slatists have been wrong for 2500 years? Note the fallacy – the whole premise of his argument is that if you take a bitter orange and plant it in more favorable soil it will become a sweet orange, while in fact the lack of sweetness is genetic and no amount of favorable soil and water will sweeten it. This could have been printed in the NY Times this week.

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  134. “The proposal is an effort to attract more teachers, but why not just pay moving expenses for the NY test takers that fail.”

    Because CA, rather notoriously, has the toughest credential tests in all professions.

    BTW, Eustace Tilly is almost certainly lying, as is anyone who says that all x states’ teacher are laggards, idiots, etc.

    “In my opinion pass all the minority test takers and let them teach only to their race. ”

    That’s not an opinion. It’s a suggestion. A stupid one. First, it would be a massive transfer of government funds from white to black/Hispanic, to say nothing of against the law. Then there’s the pesky fact that not all schools are one race. And of course, there aren’t enough black and Hispanic people capable of passing the tests to teach all the black and Hispanic students.

    Res, I have a blog. the blog has all the data you asked for. But here’s a simple fact to start with: teachers aren’t education majors and education majors aren’t teachers. So if your stats involve education majors, find a kiddie pool to pee in.

    Oh, the blog also has my GRE scores. I am quite certain that the commentariat here is about as smart as the average high school academic teacher. You are probably about average for a teacher. Me, I’m smart for a neurosurgeon.

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    • Replies: @Desiderius

    I am quite certain that the commentariat here is about as smart as the average high school academic teacher.
     
    Cite needed.

    Perfect ACT/GRE here, and there are many commenters smarter than me, not to mention our illustrious host.

    I think you're blowing smoke.
    , @ScarletNumber
    Believe it or not education realist is more obnoxious on his own blog than he is here, so don't waste your time.
    , @Autochthon

    Me, I’m smart for a neurosurgeon.
     
    And modest, too....
    , @Twinkie

    I am quite certain that the commentariat here is about as smart as the average high school academic teacher.
     
    I don't speak for other commenters, but I was 99 percentile for both the SAT and the GRE (more than a quarter century ago - so old tests). But, of course, according to you that's meaningless since I am ethnically East Asian ("cheating," "different IQ") and can't do abstract or original thinking.

    Me, I’m smart for a neurosurgeon.
     
    Most neurosurgeons have IQs that allow them to comprehend the concept of "Mismatch": https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/04/20/mismatch

    That's the IQ part. Most neurosurgeons also have good judgment and know when to admit mistakes instead of keep plowing ahead with faulty lines of reasoning for the sake of ego or preconceived agenda. In general, physicians, especially those in certain specialties where life-altering or -ending decisions have to be made quickly, tend to have the humility to know when they are wrong and course-correct. Otherwise they kill patients and incur a HUGE liability to their employers.

    Now, having stated all that, I am going to stick up for one thing you wrote. I do think most teachers are above average in IQ as you stated. Some commenters here seem to be confusing "above average IQ" with "elite IQ." They are also confusing IQ with ambition/drive.

    In my extended family, there are two teachers. Both are bright people, definitely above average IQ. One, an older female, became a teacher so that she could balance family and career/income. She'd admit quite readily that teaching was not her first choice. The other is a younger man. His two brothers are lawyer and venture capitalist, respectively. Everyone in the family knows that he is as smart as his brothers are, but also that he conspicuously lacks that drive and high work ethic. Again, being a teacher was not his first choice, but he "kinda fell into it" because it fit well with his lethargic personality. He never wanted to work that hard and make something big of himself, and is happy with his lot in life (though, of course, he did marry a high-income wife). He's on the golf course just about everyday in the summer.
    , @res

    Res, I have a blog. the blog has all the data you asked for. But here’s a simple fact to start with: teachers aren’t education majors and education majors aren’t teachers. So if your stats involve education majors, find a kiddie pool to pee in.
     
    A direct link to the original source would be much more helpful. My stats showed ALL entering majors having SAT math scores lower than 580. With those planning education majors next to last around 480. And as far as kiddie pool comments. F*ck off. If you were present I'd pee on you instead. If you want to be like that I will be as well.

    I don't think I had any high school teachers (as good as some were) as smart as commenters like Jack D, Twinkie, Daniel Chieh, and others I am sure. And for what it's worth, you probably don't want to get into a test score pissing contest with me. Actually, since you seem to have called me out explicitly, my SAT score was above the 99.9th percentile (but lower than some other commenters here). What was yours again?

    The stats I have seen show the average neurosurgeon has an IQ of 125. I may be overestimating the commentariat, but I would guess the average for prolific commenters here is above that. Remember, authenticjazzman is in Mensa (> 130 IQ) and his comments, while interesting at times, are IMHO at best average content wise here.

    Flame off. Another thought which I think is extremely relevant here. One of the best clues I know for judging someone's intelligence is how well they recognize people I believe/know are extremely smart (and by extremely smart I am not talking about a typical 125 IQ person, though that or lower might qualify given extraordinary niche abilities). One weakness I have in this area is that I have a bit of an M tilt so sometimes overestimate the intelligence of V leaning people in oral/written communication not involving math skills (e.g. not having statistical arguments). I'm guessing ER is making the opposite error in assessing the iSteve commentariat.

    P.S. I'll echo Twinkie's comment about teachers having higher than average IQ. And have friends and family members who I think do their part to pull up the average ; ) I sincerely hope Twinkie wasn't including me in the group disparaging teachers and/or confusing above average and elite IQs (by a similar token, I should emphasize that me implying a person or group has non-elite IQs is in general not at all disparaging, with an exception for text immediately above). Also worth acknowledging ER's distinction of HS academic teachers as being a distinct group of teachers probably having even higher IQ than the average teacher overall (anyone have numbers?).
  135. @Daniel Chieh
    Was this part of the parable which argued for the strength of fa-jia Legalist institutions?

    I don’t know. That is from a student version from iMandarinPod.com.

    It is really from 晏紫春秋 but I have not tracked that down and it may be more than I can deal with.

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  136. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @Autochthon
    I do not suggest licensed physicians are leaving to teach elementary school; I suggest those aspiring to become phsycians but who fail to do so may wind up as teachers.

    According to the bell curves I have seen, there are (first order guesstimate) ~5000 blacks (including many who are black in name only, perhaps quadroons) smart enough to become physicians legitimately. Whether they also have the self-control and future time orientation to do so is another question.

    On the other hand there are how many ? black doctors practicing in the US? It’s more than the bell curves suggest should be even eligible to get a seat in school.

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  137. @education realist
    "The proposal is an effort to attract more teachers, but why not just pay moving expenses for the NY test takers that fail."

    Because CA, rather notoriously, has the toughest credential tests in all professions.

    BTW, Eustace Tilly is almost certainly lying, as is anyone who says that all x states' teacher are laggards, idiots, etc.

    "In my opinion pass all the minority test takers and let them teach only to their race. "

    That's not an opinion. It's a suggestion. A stupid one. First, it would be a massive transfer of government funds from white to black/Hispanic, to say nothing of against the law. Then there's the pesky fact that not all schools are one race. And of course, there aren't enough black and Hispanic people capable of passing the tests to teach all the black and Hispanic students.

    Res, I have a blog. the blog has all the data you asked for. But here's a simple fact to start with: teachers aren't education majors and education majors aren't teachers. So if your stats involve education majors, find a kiddie pool to pee in.

    Oh, the blog also has my GRE scores. I am quite certain that the commentariat here is about as smart as the average high school academic teacher. You are probably about average for a teacher. Me, I'm smart for a neurosurgeon.

    I am quite certain that the commentariat here is about as smart as the average high school academic teacher.

    Cite needed.

    Perfect ACT/GRE here, and there are many commenters smarter than me, not to mention our illustrious host.

    I think you’re blowing smoke.

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    • Replies: @res
    Agreed. I will reemphasize what I said in comment 119 responding to ER:
    "I would say you thinking otherwise says more about you than it does about the other posters here."
  138. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @Jimbo in OPKS
    All of my Senior engineering students will be taking the Fundamentals of Engineering test this year. Pass or you will never become a licensed Professional Engineer in four years and after another examination. I find this lack of rigor in Education to be amazing.

    Teachers are not tested even as well as aircraft mechanics, maybe not even as well as bus mechanics. I think the average vo tech student is at least as smart as the average ed major in most universities.

    (Former Adjunct at KU Edwards Center and substitute Instructor at AIM Kansas City!)

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  139. @Peripatetic commenter
    I don't know. That is from a student version from iMandarinPod.com.

    It is really from 晏紫春秋 but I have not tracked that down and it may be more than I can deal with.

    晏紫春秋

    Make that: 晏子春秋

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  140. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @Autochthon
    I do not suggest licensed physicians are leaving to teach elementary school; I suggest those aspiring to become phsycians but who fail to do so may wind up as teachers.

    I do not suggest licensed physicians are leaving to teach elementary school; I suggest those aspiring to become phsycians but who fail to do so may wind up as teachers.

    No, they become some lesser professional or if they fail that go into paraprofessional or sales careers. Most of my HS teachers and most of the ones I’ve dealt with socially were the type that never had any serious higher career plans besides athletics/showbiz/et al. They saw their teachers were mostly a bunch of mooks and got away with it so they figured they would too.

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  141. @education realist
    "The proposal is an effort to attract more teachers, but why not just pay moving expenses for the NY test takers that fail."

    Because CA, rather notoriously, has the toughest credential tests in all professions.

    BTW, Eustace Tilly is almost certainly lying, as is anyone who says that all x states' teacher are laggards, idiots, etc.

    "In my opinion pass all the minority test takers and let them teach only to their race. "

    That's not an opinion. It's a suggestion. A stupid one. First, it would be a massive transfer of government funds from white to black/Hispanic, to say nothing of against the law. Then there's the pesky fact that not all schools are one race. And of course, there aren't enough black and Hispanic people capable of passing the tests to teach all the black and Hispanic students.

    Res, I have a blog. the blog has all the data you asked for. But here's a simple fact to start with: teachers aren't education majors and education majors aren't teachers. So if your stats involve education majors, find a kiddie pool to pee in.

    Oh, the blog also has my GRE scores. I am quite certain that the commentariat here is about as smart as the average high school academic teacher. You are probably about average for a teacher. Me, I'm smart for a neurosurgeon.

    Believe it or not education realist is more obnoxious on his own blog than he is here, so don’t waste your time.

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    • Replies: @Twinkie

    Believe it or not education realist is more obnoxious on his own blog than he is here, so don’t waste your time.
     
    You know, I don't mind obnoxiousness, especially over the Internet. But what bothers me is the lack of intellectual honesty.* I think she is smart enough to know when her argument is wrong or weak, but when confronted with that, she tends to ooze around it like Jell-O, fall back on ad hominem, and/or simply disappear (only to re-emerge later with the same shtick). It's doubly unfortunate that a lot of people fall for her assertions without evidence, because they happen to fit their particular preconceived notions.

    *It's not that she's always wrong. It's that she mixes good observations with unwarranted assertions and tries to pass the latter off at the same time.
  142. @Steve Sailer
    http://www.lagriffedulion.f2s.com/adverse.htm

    Steve I loved La Griffe’s typically brilliant paper. But can you please explain in simple terms the real causes of the shapes of those curves that illustrate the “mathematical artefact”. What changes what?

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    • Replies: @res
    I'm not Steve, but perhaps I can give it a try. First, an important subtlety is that we are looking at the percentage gap. Looking at the ratio (as in Emil's page) is more intuitive IMHO.

    Since we are looking at the percentage gap there are intrinsically two zero gap points. Everyone passes and no one passes. Between that the curve is driven by how quickly the % passing for each group is changing. Looking at La Griffe's plot and moving from left to right we have an impossible test being made easier. Since more whites are at the top end, the curve slopes up sharply (gap about linear with % whites passing to start) with % whites passing. At some point we pass the white mean (50% passing). Shortly after that as the test becomes even easier we are nearing the black mean so the black distribution is fatter at that point and the gap decreases. I believe it's correct to observe that the point where the gap plateaus is where the probability densities are equal (where the curves cross on Emil's page).

    The best way I know to get an intuition for this idea is to go to Emil's interactive visualization of tail effects page: http://emilkirkegaard.dk/understanding_statistics/?app=tail_effects
    and try out different thresholds watching how the percent blue above threshold (aka passing) changes and the reasons for that (also compare the ratios per comment above).

    IMHO a good way to think about this is to mentally substitute IQs corresponding to white percentiles for the X axis (and reverse it so low IQs are on the left).

    P.S. For those who want to learn more about statistics and find interactive visualizations helpful, Emil's page linked above has many excellent examples.
  143. @Jack D

    Look, the average math teacher in twenty states with average difficulty math credential tests has an SAT math score of about 580 (2005-2015 version). This doesn’t include California and NY, both states with much harder credential tests. So no, math teachers aren’t teaching algebra to students who know more than they do, even in extraordinary schools, much less ordinary ones.
     
    This seems to be a non-sequitur. If the teachers are scoring 580 and they have students who score much higher (these certainly exist in "extraordinary schools"), then at the very least the students are smarter than their teachers (and might even know more math).

    My daughter was (is) very gifted at math so it always seemed strange to me that the nice white lady who was the head of the math dept. at my daughter's school really didn't seem to like her (while most of her teachers loved her). It occurred to me just now that this lady felt threatened by my daughter's intelligence.

    This seems to be a non-sequitur. If the teachers are scoring 580 and they have students who score much higher (these certainly exist in “extraordinary schools”), then at the very least the students are smarter than their teachers (and might even know more math).

    My Economics teacher in high school put it well at the beginning of the year: “Some of you are brighter than me, but you can still learn from me.” I was brighter than he, and also learned valuable stuff in his class. He was a good teacher. Most teachers deal every year with students in their classes who are brighter than the teacher. I was brighter than all of my elementary school teachers and nearly all of my high school teachers. [Ironically, the one example where my teacher may have been brighter than me- she was a Phi Beta Kappa graduate in Math from UMichigan- she was a lousy teacher. I ignored her and taught myself from the textbook.]

    For the most part, my being brighter than the teacher wasn’t a problem. My elementary school teachers were very gracious about my correcting their factual errors. It was a problem in an AP History class where the teacher didn’t know the material. His not knowing the material was a bigger problem than his IQ.

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  144. @Peripatetic commenter

    Which serves it in the office of a wall
     
    Well, clearly he was racist!

    Elizabeth even made the Spanish pay for it!

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  145. @education realist
    "The proposal is an effort to attract more teachers, but why not just pay moving expenses for the NY test takers that fail."

    Because CA, rather notoriously, has the toughest credential tests in all professions.

    BTW, Eustace Tilly is almost certainly lying, as is anyone who says that all x states' teacher are laggards, idiots, etc.

    "In my opinion pass all the minority test takers and let them teach only to their race. "

    That's not an opinion. It's a suggestion. A stupid one. First, it would be a massive transfer of government funds from white to black/Hispanic, to say nothing of against the law. Then there's the pesky fact that not all schools are one race. And of course, there aren't enough black and Hispanic people capable of passing the tests to teach all the black and Hispanic students.

    Res, I have a blog. the blog has all the data you asked for. But here's a simple fact to start with: teachers aren't education majors and education majors aren't teachers. So if your stats involve education majors, find a kiddie pool to pee in.

    Oh, the blog also has my GRE scores. I am quite certain that the commentariat here is about as smart as the average high school academic teacher. You are probably about average for a teacher. Me, I'm smart for a neurosurgeon.

    Me, I’m smart for a neurosurgeon.

    And modest, too….

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  146. @Autochthon
    I do not suggest licensed physicians are leaving to teach elementary school; I suggest those aspiring to become phsycians but who fail to do so may wind up as teachers.

    I do not suggest licensed physicians are leaving to teach elementary school; I suggest those aspiring to become phsycians but who fail to do so may wind up as teachers.

    The example of a large medical practice I provided above ought to make you realize that far more blacks who aspire to become a physician than those who possess the qualifications to be so become physicians. In other words, those blacks who should not have been accepted to medical schools are accepted. And after that those blacks who should have been weeded out of medical schools graduate. Would you like to be the dean of a medical school where 90% of black medical students fail to graduate? The outrage would make you a persona non grata very quickly.

    At the end of the day, Board failure rates and the rates of suspension/revocation of licenses will tell you what you need to know.

    Even among those who do not quite make it medical school (despite a thumb, nay, a whole body, on the scale in favor of black applicants) being a teacher is not a fallback career of first resort. There is A LOT of jobs that above average IQ blacks can do that are far more lucrative and less stressful (e.g. dealing with irate parents; test scores; etc.) than being a teacher.

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    • Replies: @res
    Twinkie, I agree with all you wrote in your comment, but I think it is worth noting that Autochthon has a valid point as well. Some potential pre-meds are weeded out as soon as they hit a hard class (organic chemistry being the most notorious) and can choose to pursue something else.

    This is a good spot to recommend anyone interested in this check out the idea of "mismatch" which Twinkie mentioned earlier. I struggle with whether it would be better to largely eliminate affirmative action and have everyone sort into professions where they are likely to be competitive with other participants, or having the status quo where we better meet the admirable goal of having more "role models" in respected professions, but at the cost of a disproportionate number of the less able being from one group causing stereotypes to form. And then there is also an echo effect through all the other professions. The same dynamic applies to college admissions.
  147. @education realist
    "The proposal is an effort to attract more teachers, but why not just pay moving expenses for the NY test takers that fail."

    Because CA, rather notoriously, has the toughest credential tests in all professions.

    BTW, Eustace Tilly is almost certainly lying, as is anyone who says that all x states' teacher are laggards, idiots, etc.

    "In my opinion pass all the minority test takers and let them teach only to their race. "

    That's not an opinion. It's a suggestion. A stupid one. First, it would be a massive transfer of government funds from white to black/Hispanic, to say nothing of against the law. Then there's the pesky fact that not all schools are one race. And of course, there aren't enough black and Hispanic people capable of passing the tests to teach all the black and Hispanic students.

    Res, I have a blog. the blog has all the data you asked for. But here's a simple fact to start with: teachers aren't education majors and education majors aren't teachers. So if your stats involve education majors, find a kiddie pool to pee in.

    Oh, the blog also has my GRE scores. I am quite certain that the commentariat here is about as smart as the average high school academic teacher. You are probably about average for a teacher. Me, I'm smart for a neurosurgeon.

    I am quite certain that the commentariat here is about as smart as the average high school academic teacher.

    I don’t speak for other commenters, but I was 99 percentile for both the SAT and the GRE (more than a quarter century ago – so old tests). But, of course, according to you that’s meaningless since I am ethnically East Asian (“cheating,” “different IQ”) and can’t do abstract or original thinking.

    Me, I’m smart for a neurosurgeon.

    Most neurosurgeons have IQs that allow them to comprehend the concept of “Mismatch”: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/04/20/mismatch

    That’s the IQ part. Most neurosurgeons also have good judgment and know when to admit mistakes instead of keep plowing ahead with faulty lines of reasoning for the sake of ego or preconceived agenda. In general, physicians, especially those in certain specialties where life-altering or -ending decisions have to be made quickly, tend to have the humility to know when they are wrong and course-correct. Otherwise they kill patients and incur a HUGE liability to their employers.

    Now, having stated all that, I am going to stick up for one thing you wrote. I do think most teachers are above average in IQ as you stated. Some commenters here seem to be confusing “above average IQ” with “elite IQ.” They are also confusing IQ with ambition/drive.

    In my extended family, there are two teachers. Both are bright people, definitely above average IQ. One, an older female, became a teacher so that she could balance family and career/income. She’d admit quite readily that teaching was not her first choice. The other is a younger man. His two brothers are lawyer and venture capitalist, respectively. Everyone in the family knows that he is as smart as his brothers are, but also that he conspicuously lacks that drive and high work ethic. Again, being a teacher was not his first choice, but he “kinda fell into it” because it fit well with his lethargic personality. He never wanted to work that hard and make something big of himself, and is happy with his lot in life (though, of course, he did marry a high-income wife). He’s on the golf course just about everyday in the summer.

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    • Replies: @ScarletNumber

    He’s on the golf course just about everyday in the summer.
     
    He seems like the smartest of the 3. Anyway, how exactly does one become a venture capitalist for a living?
  148. @Autochthon
    Agreed for the most part. The business about teachers resenting smart kids is especially ridiculous: teachers adore brilliant students; they live for it. Even as a jaded professor of law I did.

    Even as a jaded professor of law I did.

    I was a young history professor, and I agree with this. But being a professor and a primary/secondary school teacher is different. You and I didn’t belong to a union (with all the political and ideological agitation that involves). That is not to say university professors aren’t prone to ideological agitation, merely that there is certain love of learning/knowledge/sharing that drive people toward doctorates.

    The business about teachers resenting smart kids is especially ridiculous: teachers adore brilliant students; they live for it.

    I graduated from Stuyvesant High School, arguably the premier public magnet school in New York City. The caliber of faculty there was much higher compared to average quality NYC public high schools. There were several Ph.D.’s (my favorite mentor was one Dr. Irgang, a combat infantryman in the Korean War, and a superb history teacher who would often rail against Ivy League recruiters “You are my problems! You make it hard for me to educate my pupils!”). Definitely there were many teachers who lived for inculcating brilliant students.

    But there were also numerous teachers who came to Stuyvesant so that they could coast. Worse, some of them actively disliked students who were smarter than they were (not that rare at Stuyvesant) and would go out of their way to make life difficult for them. I can’t help but think that it was out of envy and resentment (which is why it rang a bell for me when “education realist” let it slip in one comment in a delighted tone, no less, that she tries to make the lives of her Asian students – whom she claimed she loved in another comment – miserable). For a darkly comedic portrayal of this type of teacher see this film: https://youtu.be/tBgM_Kw6PSM

    So both caricatures – the caring mentor and the resentful loser – have some basis in truth in my experience.

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    • Replies: @res

    But there were also numerous teachers who came to Stuyvesant so that they could coast. Worse, some of them actively disliked students who were smarter than they were (not that rare at Stuyvesant) and would go out of their way to make life difficult for them.
     
    Thanks for sharing your experience. I am baffled by why someone like that would want to teach at Stuyvesant! An utter lack of self awareness? Status for teaching at an elite school?

    So both caricatures – the caring mentor and the resentful loser – have some basis in truth in my experience.
     
    This. And to clarify my earlier comment, I think the former is more common.
  149. @ScarletNumber
    Believe it or not education realist is more obnoxious on his own blog than he is here, so don't waste your time.

    Believe it or not education realist is more obnoxious on his own blog than he is here, so don’t waste your time.

    You know, I don’t mind obnoxiousness, especially over the Internet. But what bothers me is the lack of intellectual honesty.* I think she is smart enough to know when her argument is wrong or weak, but when confronted with that, she tends to ooze around it like Jell-O, fall back on ad hominem, and/or simply disappear (only to re-emerge later with the same shtick). It’s doubly unfortunate that a lot of people fall for her assertions without evidence, because they happen to fit their particular preconceived notions.

    *It’s not that she’s always wrong. It’s that she mixes good observations with unwarranted assertions and tries to pass the latter off at the same time.

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  150. @Anon
    (Broski on phone)

    Meritocracy = racist is a bitter pill to swallow.

    Meritocracy = racist is a bitter pill to swallow.

    You have to ask whether your country could survive swallowing that particular pill.

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  151. @Clyde

    In Canada, where the fraction of the population that are native is higher than the US (plus no slavery to whine about) means a lot of SJW work goes into making whites feel guilty because their ancestors came here and ripped off the natives.
     
    I rather be drinking on The Rez in Canada than America. Don't some tribes own vast hydro-power there?

    The ones in western Canada don’t own hydro projects, but I don’t know about the east.

    They tend to have reservations where they were living when Europeans arrived. So there’s reserves right in greater Vancouver, for example. But some reserves are very remote.

    They keep agitating for more land. Kind of like the reparations for blacks thing, except they’re serious and have had some success.

    They seem to be genetically prone to alcoholism. I am guessing that this is due to their recent (in evolutionary time) exposure to it. One also sees more alcoholism in Northern Europeans than in the south, so I suspect genetics there too.

    But the native problem is far worse than even the worst European groups. It’s holding them back from doing much of anything at all.

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  152. @Peripatetic commenter
    Well, I think that piece by Shakespeare is different to what I was thinking of. I was thinking of a story called:

    晏子使楚

    Here is the money quote from a modern rendition:

    大王,让我给您打个比方吧,橘树生在淮河以南就叫橘,生长在淮河以北就叫枳,叶儿差不多,但是味道不一样,为什么呢?因为水土不同。百姓在齐国的时候不偷东西,到了楚国就偷东西,这恐怕也是因为水土不同吧?

     

    Here, 晏子 (Yan2zi3--circa 500BC from Qi2guo2) who had been captured by Chu3guo2 (楚国) had been called on to answer as to why another captive from 齐国 (Qi2guo2) stole things and it was suggested that people from Qi2guo were all thieves.

    He appeals to mandarins (橘-ju2) and trifoliate oranges (枳-zhi3) claiming that they are the same and the difference in taste us due to the environment they were raised in not being the same (水土不同.) 水土 is literally water and earth. However, they were clearly unaware that those two are different species.

    He then uses the difference in environment to claim that someone from Qi2guo2 would not be a thief at home but when transported to a different environment he would become one.

    Seems to me to be the earliest invocation of the theory of magic dirt.

    When did magic dirt become “night soil”?

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  153. @education realist
    "580 is a pretty sucky SAT math score. I wouldn’t want anyone like that teaching math beyond elementary school."

    580 is above the average for all college grads. And relatively few people posting here managed much higher. Ignorance, again.


    "An IQ of 105 is, by definition, above average. Ignorance is another matter. What the heck are going on about?"

    It's above average for all Americans. ES teachers are just under the average for college graduates; high school teachers in academics solidly above average in their field.

    There are also quite a few actual smart teachers; every year I checked, the GRE had 10-20% 700+ scores. Haven't checked recently.

    BTW, those talking about how teachers "used" to be smart pre-feminism--the actual average is about the same. Fewer women from the top echelons, but more men from the above average.

    "They realized that they couldn’t get rid of the incompetent (mostly black) teachers because of the union so they paid those teachers to sit around while they hired better ones. "

    That's not actually what happened, but in any event the scores didn't go up. Smarter teachers didn't lead to better outcomes.

    "My daughter was (is) very gifted at math so it always seemed strange to me that the nice white lady who was the head of the math dept. at my daughter’s school really didn’t seem to like her (while most of her teachers loved her). It occurred to me just now that this lady felt threatened by my daughter’s intelligence."

    Yes, that must be it. The math teacher was terrified of your daughter's brilliance. And it just now occurred to you.

    The "teachers hated my kid because (s)he was sooooo smart" is a common trope. I have a smart kid and am pleased that even though he went to high school before I started teaching, even though he had a GPA considerably lower than his test scores suggested, I never resorted to such pabulum.


    " The funny part was that it also was giving many more male teachers and older teachers the lowest score."

    Principal evaluations alone lead to male teachers (ES) and older teachers being canned. Pretty common.

    Joey--that sounds a lot like grammar, show & tell, and math word problems.

    "I mean, how many white teachers are there in Detroit, Atlanta, and Washington DC these days?"

    A lot. They use charters.

    So much ignorance, but I have to go to work now.

    And I don't see what is wrong with that test. Perfectly reasonable.

    580 is above the average for all college grads

    Really? I scored 600 on the (old) SAT, and math was my worst subject.

    Of course, the whole kerfuffle is irrelevant, because the only measure of a teacher is what their students achieve.

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    • Replies: @Triumph104
    So far, 600 has even beat the Asian-American SAT average. I expect with the anticipated score inflation on the post-2016 version of the SAT that Asian-Americans will finally average above 600.

    Of course, the whole kerfuffle is irrelevant, because the only measure of a teacher is what their students achieve.
     
    That is why teachers unions have been pushing for schools to be fully integrated by race, income, learning disablities, and English language learners. If every school in a district has the same demographic enrollment then teachers will receive the same evaluation because their students will score the same on standardized exams and show the same level of achievement. The system now punishes teachers in poor black/Hispanic schools while teachers in white/Asian schools get a pass.
  154. @Twinkie

    I am quite certain that the commentariat here is about as smart as the average high school academic teacher.
     
    I don't speak for other commenters, but I was 99 percentile for both the SAT and the GRE (more than a quarter century ago - so old tests). But, of course, according to you that's meaningless since I am ethnically East Asian ("cheating," "different IQ") and can't do abstract or original thinking.

    Me, I’m smart for a neurosurgeon.
     
    Most neurosurgeons have IQs that allow them to comprehend the concept of "Mismatch": https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/04/20/mismatch

    That's the IQ part. Most neurosurgeons also have good judgment and know when to admit mistakes instead of keep plowing ahead with faulty lines of reasoning for the sake of ego or preconceived agenda. In general, physicians, especially those in certain specialties where life-altering or -ending decisions have to be made quickly, tend to have the humility to know when they are wrong and course-correct. Otherwise they kill patients and incur a HUGE liability to their employers.

    Now, having stated all that, I am going to stick up for one thing you wrote. I do think most teachers are above average in IQ as you stated. Some commenters here seem to be confusing "above average IQ" with "elite IQ." They are also confusing IQ with ambition/drive.

    In my extended family, there are two teachers. Both are bright people, definitely above average IQ. One, an older female, became a teacher so that she could balance family and career/income. She'd admit quite readily that teaching was not her first choice. The other is a younger man. His two brothers are lawyer and venture capitalist, respectively. Everyone in the family knows that he is as smart as his brothers are, but also that he conspicuously lacks that drive and high work ethic. Again, being a teacher was not his first choice, but he "kinda fell into it" because it fit well with his lethargic personality. He never wanted to work that hard and make something big of himself, and is happy with his lot in life (though, of course, he did marry a high-income wife). He's on the golf course just about everyday in the summer.

    He’s on the golf course just about everyday in the summer.

    He seems like the smartest of the 3. Anyway, how exactly does one become a venture capitalist for a living?

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  155. @Oleaginous Outrager

    580 is above the average for all college grads
     
    Really? I scored 600 on the (old) SAT, and math was my worst subject.

    Of course, the whole kerfuffle is irrelevant, because the only measure of a teacher is what their students achieve.

    So far, 600 has even beat the Asian-American SAT average. I expect with the anticipated score inflation on the post-2016 version of the SAT that Asian-Americans will finally average above 600.

    Of course, the whole kerfuffle is irrelevant, because the only measure of a teacher is what their students achieve.

    That is why teachers unions have been pushing for schools to be fully integrated by race, income, learning disablities, and English language learners. If every school in a district has the same demographic enrollment then teachers will receive the same evaluation because their students will score the same on standardized exams and show the same level of achievement. The system now punishes teachers in poor black/Hispanic schools while teachers in white/Asian schools get a pass.

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    • Replies: @res
    Triumph104, you seem knowledgeable about testing. Is there any chance you could comment on my thoughts about the 2016 SAT (in short, is it a stealth making the test easier?) in this comment? I'm also interested in anyone else's thoughts.
  156. According to the bell curves I have seen, there are (first order guesstimate) ~5000 blacks (including many who are black in name only, perhaps quadroons) smart enough to become physicians legitimately. Whether they also have the self-control and future time orientation to do so is another question.

    I don’t know what your number refers to, but consider that however many there are, they are competing with the entertainment biz, politics, and lots of less cognitively demanding industries, which can and do throw a lot of money at smart blacks. Plus a lot more perks, and no student debt. There just aren’t enough to go around.

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  157. @education realist
    "The proposal is an effort to attract more teachers, but why not just pay moving expenses for the NY test takers that fail."

    Because CA, rather notoriously, has the toughest credential tests in all professions.

    BTW, Eustace Tilly is almost certainly lying, as is anyone who says that all x states' teacher are laggards, idiots, etc.

    "In my opinion pass all the minority test takers and let them teach only to their race. "

    That's not an opinion. It's a suggestion. A stupid one. First, it would be a massive transfer of government funds from white to black/Hispanic, to say nothing of against the law. Then there's the pesky fact that not all schools are one race. And of course, there aren't enough black and Hispanic people capable of passing the tests to teach all the black and Hispanic students.

    Res, I have a blog. the blog has all the data you asked for. But here's a simple fact to start with: teachers aren't education majors and education majors aren't teachers. So if your stats involve education majors, find a kiddie pool to pee in.

    Oh, the blog also has my GRE scores. I am quite certain that the commentariat here is about as smart as the average high school academic teacher. You are probably about average for a teacher. Me, I'm smart for a neurosurgeon.

    Res, I have a blog. the blog has all the data you asked for. But here’s a simple fact to start with: teachers aren’t education majors and education majors aren’t teachers. So if your stats involve education majors, find a kiddie pool to pee in.

    A direct link to the original source would be much more helpful. My stats showed ALL entering majors having SAT math scores lower than 580. With those planning education majors next to last around 480. And as far as kiddie pool comments. F*ck off. If you were present I’d pee on you instead. If you want to be like that I will be as well.

    I don’t think I had any high school teachers (as good as some were) as smart as commenters like Jack D, Twinkie, Daniel Chieh, and others I am sure. And for what it’s worth, you probably don’t want to get into a test score pissing contest with me. Actually, since you seem to have called me out explicitly, my SAT score was above the 99.9th percentile (but lower than some other commenters here). What was yours again?

    The stats I have seen show the average neurosurgeon has an IQ of 125. I may be overestimating the commentariat, but I would guess the average for prolific commenters here is above that. Remember, authenticjazzman is in Mensa (> 130 IQ) and his comments, while interesting at times, are IMHO at best average content wise here.

    Flame off. Another thought which I think is extremely relevant here. One of the best clues I know for judging someone’s intelligence is how well they recognize people I believe/know are extremely smart (and by extremely smart I am not talking about a typical 125 IQ person, though that or lower might qualify given extraordinary niche abilities). One weakness I have in this area is that I have a bit of an M tilt so sometimes overestimate the intelligence of V leaning people in oral/written communication not involving math skills (e.g. not having statistical arguments). I’m guessing ER is making the opposite error in assessing the iSteve commentariat.

    P.S. I’ll echo Twinkie’s comment about teachers having higher than average IQ. And have friends and family members who I think do their part to pull up the average ; ) I sincerely hope Twinkie wasn’t including me in the group disparaging teachers and/or confusing above average and elite IQs (by a similar token, I should emphasize that me implying a person or group has non-elite IQs is in general not at all disparaging, with an exception for text immediately above). Also worth acknowledging ER’s distinction of HS academic teachers as being a distinct group of teachers probably having even higher IQ than the average teacher overall (anyone have numbers?).

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    • Replies: @Twinkie

    And as far as kiddie pool comments. F*ck off. If you were present I’d pee on you instead. If you want to be like that I will be as well.
     
    I appreciate your kind remarks about me. But let's not be unnecessarily and graphically demeaning to another commenter, no matter how infuriating, obtuse or impolite she is. I am not her fan, to be mild about it, and I have had my moments of intemperate remarks, but let us, all here, try to walk the high road.

    The stats I have seen show the average neurosurgeon has an IQ of 125.
     
    I suspect that is a very low estimate. Neurosurgery is an extremely demanding - both cognitively and otherwise - specialty.
  158. @Desiderius

    I am quite certain that the commentariat here is about as smart as the average high school academic teacher.
     
    Cite needed.

    Perfect ACT/GRE here, and there are many commenters smarter than me, not to mention our illustrious host.

    I think you're blowing smoke.

    Agreed. I will reemphasize what I said in comment 119 responding to ER:
    “I would say you thinking otherwise says more about you than it does about the other posters here.”

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  159. @Wizard of Oz
    Steve I loved La Griffe's typically brilliant paper. But can you please explain in simple terms the real causes of the shapes of those curves that illustrate the "mathematical artefact". What changes what?

    I’m not Steve, but perhaps I can give it a try. First, an important subtlety is that we are looking at the percentage gap. Looking at the ratio (as in Emil’s page) is more intuitive IMHO.

    Since we are looking at the percentage gap there are intrinsically two zero gap points. Everyone passes and no one passes. Between that the curve is driven by how quickly the % passing for each group is changing. Looking at La Griffe’s plot and moving from left to right we have an impossible test being made easier. Since more whites are at the top end, the curve slopes up sharply (gap about linear with % whites passing to start) with % whites passing. At some point we pass the white mean (50% passing). Shortly after that as the test becomes even easier we are nearing the black mean so the black distribution is fatter at that point and the gap decreases. I believe it’s correct to observe that the point where the gap plateaus is where the probability densities are equal (where the curves cross on Emil’s page).

    The best way I know to get an intuition for this idea is to go to Emil’s interactive visualization of tail effects page: http://emilkirkegaard.dk/understanding_statistics/?app=tail_effects
    and try out different thresholds watching how the percent blue above threshold (aka passing) changes and the reasons for that (also compare the ratios per comment above).

    IMHO a good way to think about this is to mentally substitute IQs corresponding to white percentiles for the X axis (and reverse it so low IQs are on the left).

    P.S. For those who want to learn more about statistics and find interactive visualizations helpful, Emil’s page linked above has many excellent examples.

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    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    Thank you. One quick read and I have a mental picture of the respective black and white normal curves moving across the graph from left to right and that will have to do for the moment before I can return and move on to Emil....

    A stray thought... Emil???? Do you by chance know who La Griffe du Lion is without pseudonymity? If so, please solve the mystery for me.
  160. @Twinkie

    I do not suggest licensed physicians are leaving to teach elementary school; I suggest those aspiring to become phsycians but who fail to do so may wind up as teachers.
     
    The example of a large medical practice I provided above ought to make you realize that far more blacks who aspire to become a physician than those who possess the qualifications to be so become physicians. In other words, those blacks who should not have been accepted to medical schools are accepted. And after that those blacks who should have been weeded out of medical schools graduate. Would you like to be the dean of a medical school where 90% of black medical students fail to graduate? The outrage would make you a persona non grata very quickly.

    At the end of the day, Board failure rates and the rates of suspension/revocation of licenses will tell you what you need to know.

    Even among those who do not quite make it medical school (despite a thumb, nay, a whole body, on the scale in favor of black applicants) being a teacher is not a fallback career of first resort. There is A LOT of jobs that above average IQ blacks can do that are far more lucrative and less stressful (e.g. dealing with irate parents; test scores; etc.) than being a teacher.

    Twinkie, I agree with all you wrote in your comment, but I think it is worth noting that Autochthon has a valid point as well. Some potential pre-meds are weeded out as soon as they hit a hard class (organic chemistry being the most notorious) and can choose to pursue something else.

    This is a good spot to recommend anyone interested in this check out the idea of “mismatch” which Twinkie mentioned earlier. I struggle with whether it would be better to largely eliminate affirmative action and have everyone sort into professions where they are likely to be competitive with other participants, or having the status quo where we better meet the admirable goal of having more “role models” in respected professions, but at the cost of a disproportionate number of the less able being from one group causing stereotypes to form. And then there is also an echo effect through all the other professions. The same dynamic applies to college admissions.

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    • Replies: @Twinkie

    I struggle with whether it would be better to largely eliminate affirmative action and have everyone sort into professions where they are likely to be competitive with other participants
     
    1. I prefer affirmative action for the socio-economically downtrodden regardless of race. There is a lot of my white neighbors of mine in WV as well as across the Midwest whose hardworking, but economically downscale children who would thrive under that system. And unlike many black and Hispanic beneficiaries of the current affirmative action system, they are "salvageable," that is, they would become productive and contributing members of society, a net gain for the society as a whole, rather than rent collectors (e.g. parasites).

    2. I favor the German system of three-tiered secondary education, under which pupils are identified based on cognitive profiles into the menial labor/tradesmen track, the technical professional track, and the university track. Too many middle-of-the-road Americans go to mediocre universities, learn useless things (while mostly partying), and rack up debt, instead of getting technical training and apprenticeship that lead to valued and productive (and in-demand!) endeavors. See: https://www.fastcompany.com/3058946/the-future-of-work/what-the-us-can-learn-from-germanys-work-training-programs
  161. @Twinkie

    Even as a jaded professor of law I did.
     
    I was a young history professor, and I agree with this. But being a professor and a primary/secondary school teacher is different. You and I didn't belong to a union (with all the political and ideological agitation that involves). That is not to say university professors aren't prone to ideological agitation, merely that there is certain love of learning/knowledge/sharing that drive people toward doctorates.

    The business about teachers resenting smart kids is especially ridiculous: teachers adore brilliant students; they live for it.
     
    I graduated from Stuyvesant High School, arguably the premier public magnet school in New York City. The caliber of faculty there was much higher compared to average quality NYC public high schools. There were several Ph.D.'s (my favorite mentor was one Dr. Irgang, a combat infantryman in the Korean War, and a superb history teacher who would often rail against Ivy League recruiters "You are my problems! You make it hard for me to educate my pupils!"). Definitely there were many teachers who lived for inculcating brilliant students.

    But there were also numerous teachers who came to Stuyvesant so that they could coast. Worse, some of them actively disliked students who were smarter than they were (not that rare at Stuyvesant) and would go out of their way to make life difficult for them. I can't help but think that it was out of envy and resentment (which is why it rang a bell for me when "education realist" let it slip in one comment in a delighted tone, no less, that she tries to make the lives of her Asian students - whom she claimed she loved in another comment - miserable). For a darkly comedic portrayal of this type of teacher see this film: https://youtu.be/tBgM_Kw6PSM

    So both caricatures - the caring mentor and the resentful loser - have some basis in truth in my experience.

    But there were also numerous teachers who came to Stuyvesant so that they could coast. Worse, some of them actively disliked students who were smarter than they were (not that rare at Stuyvesant) and would go out of their way to make life difficult for them.

    Thanks for sharing your experience. I am baffled by why someone like that would want to teach at Stuyvesant! An utter lack of self awareness? Status for teaching at an elite school?

    So both caricatures – the caring mentor and the resentful loser – have some basis in truth in my experience.

    This. And to clarify my earlier comment, I think the former is more common.

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  162. @Triumph104
    So far, 600 has even beat the Asian-American SAT average. I expect with the anticipated score inflation on the post-2016 version of the SAT that Asian-Americans will finally average above 600.

    Of course, the whole kerfuffle is irrelevant, because the only measure of a teacher is what their students achieve.
     
    That is why teachers unions have been pushing for schools to be fully integrated by race, income, learning disablities, and English language learners. If every school in a district has the same demographic enrollment then teachers will receive the same evaluation because their students will score the same on standardized exams and show the same level of achievement. The system now punishes teachers in poor black/Hispanic schools while teachers in white/Asian schools get a pass.

    Triumph104, you seem knowledgeable about testing. Is there any chance you could comment on my thoughts about the 2016 SAT (in short, is it a stealth making the test easier?) in this comment? I’m also interested in anyone else’s thoughts.

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    • Replies: @Triumph104
    Sorry, I don't know anything about the new SAT besides what I've read on The Atlantic. I look at test scores to identify differences or patterns between and within groups. As far as I know the SAT isn't any easier. I assume the change was to benefit the most selective colleges. Higher scores would bring the averages of other races closer to the highest performing Asian-Americans and the top colleges could cap or even lower the number of admitted Asian-Americans.

    I could be wrong, but I will know for sure when College Board releases the SAT racial averages later this year or next year.
  163. @res

    Res, I have a blog. the blog has all the data you asked for. But here’s a simple fact to start with: teachers aren’t education majors and education majors aren’t teachers. So if your stats involve education majors, find a kiddie pool to pee in.
     
    A direct link to the original source would be much more helpful. My stats showed ALL entering majors having SAT math scores lower than 580. With those planning education majors next to last around 480. And as far as kiddie pool comments. F*ck off. If you were present I'd pee on you instead. If you want to be like that I will be as well.

    I don't think I had any high school teachers (as good as some were) as smart as commenters like Jack D, Twinkie, Daniel Chieh, and others I am sure. And for what it's worth, you probably don't want to get into a test score pissing contest with me. Actually, since you seem to have called me out explicitly, my SAT score was above the 99.9th percentile (but lower than some other commenters here). What was yours again?

    The stats I have seen show the average neurosurgeon has an IQ of 125. I may be overestimating the commentariat, but I would guess the average for prolific commenters here is above that. Remember, authenticjazzman is in Mensa (> 130 IQ) and his comments, while interesting at times, are IMHO at best average content wise here.

    Flame off. Another thought which I think is extremely relevant here. One of the best clues I know for judging someone's intelligence is how well they recognize people I believe/know are extremely smart (and by extremely smart I am not talking about a typical 125 IQ person, though that or lower might qualify given extraordinary niche abilities). One weakness I have in this area is that I have a bit of an M tilt so sometimes overestimate the intelligence of V leaning people in oral/written communication not involving math skills (e.g. not having statistical arguments). I'm guessing ER is making the opposite error in assessing the iSteve commentariat.

    P.S. I'll echo Twinkie's comment about teachers having higher than average IQ. And have friends and family members who I think do their part to pull up the average ; ) I sincerely hope Twinkie wasn't including me in the group disparaging teachers and/or confusing above average and elite IQs (by a similar token, I should emphasize that me implying a person or group has non-elite IQs is in general not at all disparaging, with an exception for text immediately above). Also worth acknowledging ER's distinction of HS academic teachers as being a distinct group of teachers probably having even higher IQ than the average teacher overall (anyone have numbers?).

    And as far as kiddie pool comments. F*ck off. If you were present I’d pee on you instead. If you want to be like that I will be as well.

    I appreciate your kind remarks about me. But let’s not be unnecessarily and graphically demeaning to another commenter, no matter how infuriating, obtuse or impolite she is. I am not her fan, to be mild about it, and I have had my moments of intemperate remarks, but let us, all here, try to walk the high road.

    The stats I have seen show the average neurosurgeon has an IQ of 125.

    I suspect that is a very low estimate. Neurosurgery is an extremely demanding – both cognitively and otherwise – specialty.

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    • Replies: @res

    But let’s not be unnecessarily and graphically demeaning to another commenter, no matter how infuriating, obtuse or impolite she is. I am not her fan, to be mild about it, and I have had my moments of intemperate remarks, but let us, all here, try to walk the high road.
     
    Thanks for being a voice of reason and I will try. FWIW I try to set as a bound not escalating more than the other commenter did in responding to me (the respective deltas). Not sure if I met that criteria or not, but I do agree my comment was excessive in an absolute sense.

    I suspect that is a very low estimate. Neurosurgery is an extremely demanding – both cognitively and otherwise – specialty.
     
    That would be my thought as well. IIRC I saw a source giving an average of 108 IQ for electrical engineers which I also find unbelievable. One problem with going to elite colleges is it tends to skew ones sense of the abilities of different types (i.e. one tends to see the best of each profession) and I find it difficult to correct for that. I'd be interested in any data you have. The MCAT isn't an IQ test, but this site with MCAT scores by resident specialty might make a good starting point: https://www.aamc.org/data/448478/b1table.html

    More relevant to the overall discussion is this site which shows IQ distributions for both elementary and HS teachers: http://www.iqcomparisonsite.com/occupations.aspx
    , @Wizard of Oz
    I tend to see thresholds. I have opined in the past without research to back me that 125 is probably an approximate threshold for university physics professors. My impression is that neuro surgeons and cardiac surgeons are bright high energy people more distinguished by personality than IQ from their medical school peers. So, I would guess a threshold of about 118 without claiming that tbe Flynn adjusted, or not, 125 or 118, is itself a correctly precise figure. What sort of curve would describe the distribution of IQs within those classes of smart people? The answer would affect the average. Thus, to spell out the pretty obvious, the average for physics professors of whom only 3 per cent had IQs measured at <125 would be greatly enhanced by the 5 and 6 sigmas.
  164. @res
    Twinkie, I agree with all you wrote in your comment, but I think it is worth noting that Autochthon has a valid point as well. Some potential pre-meds are weeded out as soon as they hit a hard class (organic chemistry being the most notorious) and can choose to pursue something else.

    This is a good spot to recommend anyone interested in this check out the idea of "mismatch" which Twinkie mentioned earlier. I struggle with whether it would be better to largely eliminate affirmative action and have everyone sort into professions where they are likely to be competitive with other participants, or having the status quo where we better meet the admirable goal of having more "role models" in respected professions, but at the cost of a disproportionate number of the less able being from one group causing stereotypes to form. And then there is also an echo effect through all the other professions. The same dynamic applies to college admissions.

    I struggle with whether it would be better to largely eliminate affirmative action and have everyone sort into professions where they are likely to be competitive with other participants

    1. I prefer affirmative action for the socio-economically downtrodden regardless of race. There is a lot of my white neighbors of mine in WV as well as across the Midwest whose hardworking, but economically downscale children who would thrive under that system. And unlike many black and Hispanic beneficiaries of the current affirmative action system, they are “salvageable,” that is, they would become productive and contributing members of society, a net gain for the society as a whole, rather than rent collectors (e.g. parasites).

    2. I favor the German system of three-tiered secondary education, under which pupils are identified based on cognitive profiles into the menial labor/tradesmen track, the technical professional track, and the university track. Too many middle-of-the-road Americans go to mediocre universities, learn useless things (while mostly partying), and rack up debt, instead of getting technical training and apprenticeship that lead to valued and productive (and in-demand!) endeavors. See: https://www.fastcompany.com/3058946/the-future-of-work/what-the-us-can-learn-from-germanys-work-training-programs

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    • Agree: Desiderius
    • Replies: @res
    I agree, but would add two things.

    1. The importance of not demeaning the non-university tracks (not accusing you of this!). My high school had a significant vocational tech group, but in hindsight it had a negative stereotype among the academic track which IMHO was harmful. Overvaluing useless college major graduates vis-a-vis high skilled tradesmen is a problem in our society. A failure to appreciate people who may lack ability but are doing their best, especially when compared to more able people who are actively harmful (e.g. too many newspaper reporters and other iSteve favorites), is another problem.

    2. I'm actually OK with some race based AA. Primarily:
    a: Increased outreach in an attempt to identify and encourage talent. Also mentoring style programs to provide role models.
    b: Small concessions on test scores etc. (however, the current college SAT differentials etc. are beyond ridiculous)
    c: Favor a focus on citizens, but not sure it should be exclusive.

    Regarding your WV neighbors, how much encouragement do the most able get from their local communities? In HS I knew a very smart friend of a friend who was very much an outlier in her family. She ended up becoming a professor at (I think) a low/mid-tier university despite being the first in her family to go to college. I think our schools and her friends did a great job of identifying and valuing her ability, but she encountered significant family pressure that made things tougher than they might have been.

  165. @res
    I'm not Steve, but perhaps I can give it a try. First, an important subtlety is that we are looking at the percentage gap. Looking at the ratio (as in Emil's page) is more intuitive IMHO.

    Since we are looking at the percentage gap there are intrinsically two zero gap points. Everyone passes and no one passes. Between that the curve is driven by how quickly the % passing for each group is changing. Looking at La Griffe's plot and moving from left to right we have an impossible test being made easier. Since more whites are at the top end, the curve slopes up sharply (gap about linear with % whites passing to start) with % whites passing. At some point we pass the white mean (50% passing). Shortly after that as the test becomes even easier we are nearing the black mean so the black distribution is fatter at that point and the gap decreases. I believe it's correct to observe that the point where the gap plateaus is where the probability densities are equal (where the curves cross on Emil's page).

    The best way I know to get an intuition for this idea is to go to Emil's interactive visualization of tail effects page: http://emilkirkegaard.dk/understanding_statistics/?app=tail_effects
    and try out different thresholds watching how the percent blue above threshold (aka passing) changes and the reasons for that (also compare the ratios per comment above).

    IMHO a good way to think about this is to mentally substitute IQs corresponding to white percentiles for the X axis (and reverse it so low IQs are on the left).

    P.S. For those who want to learn more about statistics and find interactive visualizations helpful, Emil's page linked above has many excellent examples.

    Thank you. One quick read and I have a mental picture of the respective black and white normal curves moving across the graph from left to right and that will have to do for the moment before I can return and move on to Emil….

    A stray thought… Emil???? Do you by chance know who La Griffe du Lion is without pseudonymity? If so, please solve the mystery for me.

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    • Replies: @res
    You are welcome.
    I am talking about Emil Kirkegaard.
    Here is his blog: http://emilkirkegaard.dk/en/
    James Thompson references Emil occasionally and Emil shows up in the comments there. He writes on a variety of statistical and IQ related topics and does not shy away from the Race/IQ discussion. I have much respect for his analytical and expository skills. I am a very visual thinker so I find that interactive visualization an incredibly useful way to achieve a deeper understanding of these phenomena (tail effects).

    I do not know who La Griffe is, but I thought he had been outed on the net and a search would find that?
  166. @Twinkie

    And as far as kiddie pool comments. F*ck off. If you were present I’d pee on you instead. If you want to be like that I will be as well.
     
    I appreciate your kind remarks about me. But let's not be unnecessarily and graphically demeaning to another commenter, no matter how infuriating, obtuse or impolite she is. I am not her fan, to be mild about it, and I have had my moments of intemperate remarks, but let us, all here, try to walk the high road.

    The stats I have seen show the average neurosurgeon has an IQ of 125.
     
    I suspect that is a very low estimate. Neurosurgery is an extremely demanding - both cognitively and otherwise - specialty.

    But let’s not be unnecessarily and graphically demeaning to another commenter, no matter how infuriating, obtuse or impolite she is. I am not her fan, to be mild about it, and I have had my moments of intemperate remarks, but let us, all here, try to walk the high road.

    Thanks for being a voice of reason and I will try. FWIW I try to set as a bound not escalating more than the other commenter did in responding to me (the respective deltas). Not sure if I met that criteria or not, but I do agree my comment was excessive in an absolute sense.

    I suspect that is a very low estimate. Neurosurgery is an extremely demanding – both cognitively and otherwise – specialty.

    That would be my thought as well. IIRC I saw a source giving an average of 108 IQ for electrical engineers which I also find unbelievable. One problem with going to elite colleges is it tends to skew ones sense of the abilities of different types (i.e. one tends to see the best of each profession) and I find it difficult to correct for that. I’d be interested in any data you have. The MCAT isn’t an IQ test, but this site with MCAT scores by resident specialty might make a good starting point: https://www.aamc.org/data/448478/b1table.html

    More relevant to the overall discussion is this site which shows IQ distributions for both elementary and HS teachers: http://www.iqcomparisonsite.com/occupations.aspx

    Read More
    • Replies: @Twinkie
    Thanks for taking the unsolicited advice well. I don't always follow my own advice, so you (and others) should call me out when I do that.

    One problem with going to elite colleges is it tends to skew ones sense of the abilities of different types (i.e. one tends to see the best of each profession) and I find it difficult to correct for that.
     
    Yes, this is true. But neurosurgery is a very small field, so the regional variation is probably small. I don't know what the current numbers are now, but as of about 10-15 years ago, the total number of neurosurgeons was about 3,000. I doubt it's much higher than that today, and it's possible the number is actually smaller now (demand for them, of course, has grown explosively).

    Because it is both cognitively challenging and often physically exhausting (80 hours a week is not unusual), burnout rate is high.

    I’d be interested in any data you have.
     
    I don't have any data on this. I know that many STEM majors at the university level are 120-130 IQ (http://www.randalolson.com/2014/06/25/average-iq-of-students-by-college-major-and-gender-ratio/). Since medical school average probably somewhat higher than that and since neurosurgeons are pick of the lot, I would imagine the average IQ range is probably around 135-140, possibly higher. I personally know several neurosurgeons and they are extremely bright people, on par with some physicists I know.
    , @Desiderius

    The MCAT isn’t an IQ test
     
    I centainly hope so. I took GRE, LSAT, and MCAT ten years out of undergrad.

    Results: perfect GRE, LSAT, but MCAT kicked every last bit of my ass. It was bad.

  167. @Wizard of Oz
    Thank you. One quick read and I have a mental picture of the respective black and white normal curves moving across the graph from left to right and that will have to do for the moment before I can return and move on to Emil....

    A stray thought... Emil???? Do you by chance know who La Griffe du Lion is without pseudonymity? If so, please solve the mystery for me.

    You are welcome.
    I am talking about Emil Kirkegaard.
    Here is his blog: http://emilkirkegaard.dk/en/
    James Thompson references Emil occasionally and Emil shows up in the comments there. He writes on a variety of statistical and IQ related topics and does not shy away from the Race/IQ discussion. I have much respect for his analytical and expository skills. I am a very visual thinker so I find that interactive visualization an incredibly useful way to achieve a deeper understanding of these phenomena (tail effects).

    I do not know who La Griffe is, but I thought he had been outed on the net and a search would find that?

    Read More
  168. @Twinkie

    And as far as kiddie pool comments. F*ck off. If you were present I’d pee on you instead. If you want to be like that I will be as well.
     
    I appreciate your kind remarks about me. But let's not be unnecessarily and graphically demeaning to another commenter, no matter how infuriating, obtuse or impolite she is. I am not her fan, to be mild about it, and I have had my moments of intemperate remarks, but let us, all here, try to walk the high road.

    The stats I have seen show the average neurosurgeon has an IQ of 125.
     
    I suspect that is a very low estimate. Neurosurgery is an extremely demanding - both cognitively and otherwise - specialty.

    I tend to see thresholds. I have opined in the past without research to back me that 125 is probably an approximate threshold for university physics professors. My impression is that neuro surgeons and cardiac surgeons are bright high energy people more distinguished by personality than IQ from their medical school peers. So, I would guess a threshold of about 118 without claiming that tbe Flynn adjusted, or not, 125 or 118, is itself a correctly precise figure. What sort of curve would describe the distribution of IQs within those classes of smart people? The answer would affect the average. Thus, to spell out the pretty obvious, the average for physics professors of whom only 3 per cent had IQs measured at <125 would be greatly enhanced by the 5 and 6 sigmas.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Twinkie

    I tend to see thresholds. I have opined in the past without research to back me that 125 is probably an approximate threshold for university physics professors.
     
    I don't know about thresholds, but the average physics major in college is 130-135 range, so I would imagine Ph.D.'s in physics are probably easily 140+.
  169. @Jack D
    So white Hispanics should be reclassified as white but white Jews should be removed from the white category? (I BTW will put my whiteness up against anyone - I am as white as a beluga whale. I sunburn after 30 seconds of exposure. If I was in Africa I would be mistaken for an albino and eaten.)

    I am not unbiased in such matters, but (and I think Trump agrees with me on this - see Stephen Miller, Jared Kushner, etc.) wouldn't it be better to have smart Jews on your side instead of excluding them from your team?

    You can be in the white supergroup but Jews should always be counted as a distinct group.

    Read More
  170. @Twinkie

    I struggle with whether it would be better to largely eliminate affirmative action and have everyone sort into professions where they are likely to be competitive with other participants
     
    1. I prefer affirmative action for the socio-economically downtrodden regardless of race. There is a lot of my white neighbors of mine in WV as well as across the Midwest whose hardworking, but economically downscale children who would thrive under that system. And unlike many black and Hispanic beneficiaries of the current affirmative action system, they are "salvageable," that is, they would become productive and contributing members of society, a net gain for the society as a whole, rather than rent collectors (e.g. parasites).

    2. I favor the German system of three-tiered secondary education, under which pupils are identified based on cognitive profiles into the menial labor/tradesmen track, the technical professional track, and the university track. Too many middle-of-the-road Americans go to mediocre universities, learn useless things (while mostly partying), and rack up debt, instead of getting technical training and apprenticeship that lead to valued and productive (and in-demand!) endeavors. See: https://www.fastcompany.com/3058946/the-future-of-work/what-the-us-can-learn-from-germanys-work-training-programs

    I agree, but would add two things.

    1. The importance of not demeaning the non-university tracks (not accusing you of this!). My high school had a significant vocational tech group, but in hindsight it had a negative stereotype among the academic track which IMHO was harmful. Overvaluing useless college major graduates vis-a-vis high skilled tradesmen is a problem in our society. A failure to appreciate people who may lack ability but are doing their best, especially when compared to more able people who are actively harmful (e.g. too many newspaper reporters and other iSteve favorites), is another problem.

    2. I’m actually OK with some race based AA. Primarily:
    a: Increased outreach in an attempt to identify and encourage talent. Also mentoring style programs to provide role models.
    b: Small concessions on test scores etc. (however, the current college SAT differentials etc. are beyond ridiculous)
    c: Favor a focus on citizens, but not sure it should be exclusive.

    Regarding your WV neighbors, how much encouragement do the most able get from their local communities? In HS I knew a very smart friend of a friend who was very much an outlier in her family. She ended up becoming a professor at (I think) a low/mid-tier university despite being the first in her family to go to college. I think our schools and her friends did a great job of identifying and valuing her ability, but she encountered significant family pressure that made things tougher than they might have been.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Twinkie

    The importance of not demeaning the non-university tracks
     
    Yes, absolutely. I acknowledge that this might be more difficult in the "winners takes all" culture of American capitalism compared to the more egalitarian Germany. But we have to start somewhere.

    Regarding your WV neighbors, how much encouragement do the most able get from their local communities?
     
    Mixed. They are mostly kind, honest, patriotic, good Christian folks who generally know that education is important, but because most smart people flee the area at the first opportunity and seldom return, good role models and mentors are scarce. The children's view of the society at large is strongly affected by the mass media, which of course is highly distorted. For many of them the military is the only way out. I should also note that entitlements have been a somewhat corrosive force (and of course, controlled substance abuse rate is very high).

    I know I come off as quite cocky online, but in person I don't talk down to those with less education. As a faithful Christian, I believe in the dignity of every human being, especially the members of my community and my fellow Americans in general. Both my wife and I have a strong egalitarian and Christian ethos, so our neighbors, though initially wary (Who are these people with fancy degrees? And the man of the house is Asian? Catholics?), they quickly deemed us "good people" and made us feel welcome and belong. They often seek our counsel regarding the education of their children as well as career paths.
  171. @Jack D
    So white Hispanics should be reclassified as white but white Jews should be removed from the white category? (I BTW will put my whiteness up against anyone - I am as white as a beluga whale. I sunburn after 30 seconds of exposure. If I was in Africa I would be mistaken for an albino and eaten.)

    I am not unbiased in such matters, but (and I think Trump agrees with me on this - see Stephen Miller, Jared Kushner, etc.) wouldn't it be better to have smart Jews on your side instead of excluding them from your team?

    wouldn’t it be better to have smart Jews on your side instead of excluding them from your team?

    If they are willing to integrate and simply be Americans and not have allegiance to another country, sure.

    Read More
  172. “And modest, too….”

    I’m a teacher. Much to be modest about.

    I can’t be bothered to read back, but some idiot said “Oooh! Oooh! PERFECT ACT! I’m FREDO!!!” yes, yes. I would have thought it a given I was talking about the average, in context. Steve’s commentariat is fairly smart. It wasn’t an insult. But like most people with more time than analytical skills, they don’t realize that they aren’t all that unusual, and in fact they are about the same intelligence as an average high school teacher.

    “A direct link to the original source would be much more helpful. ”

    Yes, well, you’re not worth helping more. I write about this. People use my work on the topic. That is, unlike you, I actually know what I’m talking about. Also unlike you, I don’t give a damn what you think of me, so if you want to keep on mouthing off stupidly about things you know nothing about, that’s your affair. As is your rather icky chestbumping with Twinkie, but hey, whatever makes you happy. (let’s see if Twinkie can refrain from posting 1000 words about me! He can’t ever resist. Also icky.)

    Read More
    • Replies: @Twinkie

    icky
     
    Spoken like someone with a self-identified neurosurgeon-level IQ.

    Verbose enough for you?
    , @res
    You gave a damn the first time you replied. Convenient you don't after being slapped down. You really don't realize how much one can infer from comments here, do you?

    As far as knowing nothing, the usual response (at least among people smart by neurosurgeon standards) to dealing with someone like that is to present data to refute what I say. You might try it sometime.
  173. @res

    But let’s not be unnecessarily and graphically demeaning to another commenter, no matter how infuriating, obtuse or impolite she is. I am not her fan, to be mild about it, and I have had my moments of intemperate remarks, but let us, all here, try to walk the high road.
     
    Thanks for being a voice of reason and I will try. FWIW I try to set as a bound not escalating more than the other commenter did in responding to me (the respective deltas). Not sure if I met that criteria or not, but I do agree my comment was excessive in an absolute sense.

    I suspect that is a very low estimate. Neurosurgery is an extremely demanding – both cognitively and otherwise – specialty.
     
    That would be my thought as well. IIRC I saw a source giving an average of 108 IQ for electrical engineers which I also find unbelievable. One problem with going to elite colleges is it tends to skew ones sense of the abilities of different types (i.e. one tends to see the best of each profession) and I find it difficult to correct for that. I'd be interested in any data you have. The MCAT isn't an IQ test, but this site with MCAT scores by resident specialty might make a good starting point: https://www.aamc.org/data/448478/b1table.html

    More relevant to the overall discussion is this site which shows IQ distributions for both elementary and HS teachers: http://www.iqcomparisonsite.com/occupations.aspx

    Thanks for taking the unsolicited advice well. I don’t always follow my own advice, so you (and others) should call me out when I do that.

    One problem with going to elite colleges is it tends to skew ones sense of the abilities of different types (i.e. one tends to see the best of each profession) and I find it difficult to correct for that.

    Yes, this is true. But neurosurgery is a very small field, so the regional variation is probably small. I don’t know what the current numbers are now, but as of about 10-15 years ago, the total number of neurosurgeons was about 3,000. I doubt it’s much higher than that today, and it’s possible the number is actually smaller now (demand for them, of course, has grown explosively).

    Because it is both cognitively challenging and often physically exhausting (80 hours a week is not unusual), burnout rate is high.

    I’d be interested in any data you have.

    I don’t have any data on this. I know that many STEM majors at the university level are 120-130 IQ (http://www.randalolson.com/2014/06/25/average-iq-of-students-by-college-major-and-gender-ratio/). Since medical school average probably somewhat higher than that and since neurosurgeons are pick of the lot, I would imagine the average IQ range is probably around 135-140, possibly higher. I personally know several neurosurgeons and they are extremely bright people, on par with some physicists I know.

    Read More
  174. @Wizard of Oz
    I tend to see thresholds. I have opined in the past without research to back me that 125 is probably an approximate threshold for university physics professors. My impression is that neuro surgeons and cardiac surgeons are bright high energy people more distinguished by personality than IQ from their medical school peers. So, I would guess a threshold of about 118 without claiming that tbe Flynn adjusted, or not, 125 or 118, is itself a correctly precise figure. What sort of curve would describe the distribution of IQs within those classes of smart people? The answer would affect the average. Thus, to spell out the pretty obvious, the average for physics professors of whom only 3 per cent had IQs measured at <125 would be greatly enhanced by the 5 and 6 sigmas.

    I tend to see thresholds. I have opined in the past without research to back me that 125 is probably an approximate threshold for university physics professors.

    I don’t know about thresholds, but the average physics major in college is 130-135 range, so I would imagine Ph.D.’s in physics are probably easily 140+.

    Read More
    • Replies: @res
    Thresholds are hard to talk about for a few reasons.
    1. Some people have extremely asymmetric abilities.
    2. Occasionally people encounter a bad day and or a bad test (e.g. Feynman's much touted IQ number is a combination of this and 1. IMHO).
    3. On rare occasion not very competent people find themselves promoted far beyond their competence.

    I like using a basketball and height analogy. There is no height limit for basketball, but one better have some extraordinary other attributes if under six feet tall and wanting to play in the NBA.

    That said, I find the statements you two are making believable and tend to agree with both of you. FWIW I have known multiple physics PhDs and professors and roomed with one once.

    These IQ by major estimates seem more realistic than most to me (and align with Twinkie's), but I wish they included supporting references: http://www.statisticbrain.com/iq-estimates-by-intended-college-major/
  175. @Seth Largo
    The test is fine. You're thinking too hard about the answers. When it comes to reading comprehension tests, one can rationalize many or all answers to be somehow "correct." The point of the test is to see if you can apply Ockham's Razor to discover the most obviously correct answer, the one that requires the least amount of rationalization.

    That said, I think language arts tests should stick to analogies and a timed writing section.

    /780 GRE Verbal
    //but don't ask for my math score

    /780 GRE Verbal
    //but don’t ask for my math score

    I was a hotshot test-taker too, back in the day. So one of us has lost his test-taking mojo.

    Read More
    • Replies: @res
    What was your V/M balance like? I find it plausible that a test could trouble the opposite tendencies to a different degree.

    My SAT V/M balance was similar for subtest percentile (perhaps a little towards M), but a fair bit different numerically. Basing this on Figure 1. in https://www.ets.org/Media/Research/pdf/RR-02-04-Dorans.pdf
    That link is a detailed analysis of the 1995 SAT recentering. Among other interesting things it includes distribution histograms for the subtests by race using 1990 data.
  176. @res
    I agree, but would add two things.

    1. The importance of not demeaning the non-university tracks (not accusing you of this!). My high school had a significant vocational tech group, but in hindsight it had a negative stereotype among the academic track which IMHO was harmful. Overvaluing useless college major graduates vis-a-vis high skilled tradesmen is a problem in our society. A failure to appreciate people who may lack ability but are doing their best, especially when compared to more able people who are actively harmful (e.g. too many newspaper reporters and other iSteve favorites), is another problem.

    2. I'm actually OK with some race based AA. Primarily:
    a: Increased outreach in an attempt to identify and encourage talent. Also mentoring style programs to provide role models.
    b: Small concessions on test scores etc. (however, the current college SAT differentials etc. are beyond ridiculous)
    c: Favor a focus on citizens, but not sure it should be exclusive.

    Regarding your WV neighbors, how much encouragement do the most able get from their local communities? In HS I knew a very smart friend of a friend who was very much an outlier in her family. She ended up becoming a professor at (I think) a low/mid-tier university despite being the first in her family to go to college. I think our schools and her friends did a great job of identifying and valuing her ability, but she encountered significant family pressure that made things tougher than they might have been.

    The importance of not demeaning the non-university tracks

    Yes, absolutely. I acknowledge that this might be more difficult in the “winners takes all” culture of American capitalism compared to the more egalitarian Germany. But we have to start somewhere.

    Regarding your WV neighbors, how much encouragement do the most able get from their local communities?

    Mixed. They are mostly kind, honest, patriotic, good Christian folks who generally know that education is important, but because most smart people flee the area at the first opportunity and seldom return, good role models and mentors are scarce. The children’s view of the society at large is strongly affected by the mass media, which of course is highly distorted. For many of them the military is the only way out. I should also note that entitlements have been a somewhat corrosive force (and of course, controlled substance abuse rate is very high).

    I know I come off as quite cocky online, but in person I don’t talk down to those with less education. As a faithful Christian, I believe in the dignity of every human being, especially the members of my community and my fellow Americans in general. Both my wife and I have a strong egalitarian and Christian ethos, so our neighbors, though initially wary (Who are these people with fancy degrees? And the man of the house is Asian? Catholics?), they quickly deemed us “good people” and made us feel welcome and belong. They often seek our counsel regarding the education of their children as well as career paths.

    Read More
    • Replies: @res
    Thanks for the informative response.

    they quickly deemed us “good people” and made us feel welcome and belong
     
    It's funny how people stereotyped as racist/intolerant/etc. can be remarkably accepting of like minded people who are superficially different. I grew up in an area notorious for racism (so much so that I ran across a coworker of foreign background thousands of miles away and years later who teased me about it! in a good humored way). But recently a black HS classmate and FB friend of mine posted a comment about his disbelieving response to someone (from outside) who asked him about some recent racial kerfuffle assuming he had a terrible time growing up there. His response was hilarious in a way that I think would play well here.
  177. @education realist
    "And modest, too…."

    I'm a teacher. Much to be modest about.

    I can't be bothered to read back, but some idiot said "Oooh! Oooh! PERFECT ACT! I'm FREDO!!!" yes, yes. I would have thought it a given I was talking about the average, in context. Steve's commentariat is fairly smart. It wasn't an insult. But like most people with more time than analytical skills, they don't realize that they aren't all that unusual, and in fact they are about the same intelligence as an average high school teacher.

    "A direct link to the original source would be much more helpful. "

    Yes, well, you're not worth helping more. I write about this. People use my work on the topic. That is, unlike you, I actually know what I'm talking about. Also unlike you, I don't give a damn what you think of me, so if you want to keep on mouthing off stupidly about things you know nothing about, that's your affair. As is your rather icky chestbumping with Twinkie, but hey, whatever makes you happy. (let's see if Twinkie can refrain from posting 1000 words about me! He can't ever resist. Also icky.)

    icky

    Spoken like someone with a self-identified neurosurgeon-level IQ.

    Verbose enough for you?

    Read More
  178. @res
    Triumph104, you seem knowledgeable about testing. Is there any chance you could comment on my thoughts about the 2016 SAT (in short, is it a stealth making the test easier?) in this comment? I'm also interested in anyone else's thoughts.

    Sorry, I don’t know anything about the new SAT besides what I’ve read on The Atlantic. I look at test scores to identify differences or patterns between and within groups. As far as I know the SAT isn’t any easier. I assume the change was to benefit the most selective colleges. Higher scores would bring the averages of other races closer to the highest performing Asian-Americans and the top colleges could cap or even lower the number of admitted Asian-Americans.

    I could be wrong, but I will know for sure when College Board releases the SAT racial averages later this year or next year.

    Read More
    • Replies: @res
    Thanks for the response. It does appear that the scoring changed dramatically sometime between 2004 and 2016. Based on this from my other comment:

    I found this May 9, 2016 concordance: https://collegereadiness.collegeboard.org/pdf/higher-ed-brief-sat-concordance.pdf
    which includes tables for converting the 2005-2015 2400 point scale to the 2016 1600 point scale and the “old” (2004?) 1600 point scale to the new (2016?) 1600 point scale (new/old is the exact same terminology used in 1995 with a different meaning, is it too much to ask for more precision of terminology?!). The conversion factor for the latter is as large as 80 points at the center of the scale with exact equivalence at the extremes (contrast with 1995 which moved the ceiling 110 points).

    I'm having trouble interpreting the intent and likely effect of leaving the extremes fixed and moving the center of the distribution.

    Please post when you get the new information.
  179. @education realist
    "And modest, too…."

    I'm a teacher. Much to be modest about.

    I can't be bothered to read back, but some idiot said "Oooh! Oooh! PERFECT ACT! I'm FREDO!!!" yes, yes. I would have thought it a given I was talking about the average, in context. Steve's commentariat is fairly smart. It wasn't an insult. But like most people with more time than analytical skills, they don't realize that they aren't all that unusual, and in fact they are about the same intelligence as an average high school teacher.

    "A direct link to the original source would be much more helpful. "

    Yes, well, you're not worth helping more. I write about this. People use my work on the topic. That is, unlike you, I actually know what I'm talking about. Also unlike you, I don't give a damn what you think of me, so if you want to keep on mouthing off stupidly about things you know nothing about, that's your affair. As is your rather icky chestbumping with Twinkie, but hey, whatever makes you happy. (let's see if Twinkie can refrain from posting 1000 words about me! He can't ever resist. Also icky.)

    You gave a damn the first time you replied. Convenient you don’t after being slapped down. You really don’t realize how much one can infer from comments here, do you?

    As far as knowing nothing, the usual response (at least among people smart by neurosurgeon standards) to dealing with someone like that is to present data to refute what I say. You might try it sometime.

    Read More
  180. @Twinkie

    I tend to see thresholds. I have opined in the past without research to back me that 125 is probably an approximate threshold for university physics professors.
     
    I don't know about thresholds, but the average physics major in college is 130-135 range, so I would imagine Ph.D.'s in physics are probably easily 140+.

    Thresholds are hard to talk about for a few reasons.
    1. Some people have extremely asymmetric abilities.
    2. Occasionally people encounter a bad day and or a bad test (e.g. Feynman’s much touted IQ number is a combination of this and 1. IMHO).
    3. On rare occasion not very competent people find themselves promoted far beyond their competence.

    I like using a basketball and height analogy. There is no height limit for basketball, but one better have some extraordinary other attributes if under six feet tall and wanting to play in the NBA.

    That said, I find the statements you two are making believable and tend to agree with both of you. FWIW I have known multiple physics PhDs and professors and roomed with one once.

    These IQ by major estimates seem more realistic than most to me (and align with Twinkie’s), but I wish they included supporting references: http://www.statisticbrain.com/iq-estimates-by-intended-college-major/

    Read More
  181. @International Jew

    /780 GRE Verbal
    //but don’t ask for my math score
     
    I was a hotshot test-taker too, back in the day. So one of us has lost his test-taking mojo.

    What was your V/M balance like? I find it plausible that a test could trouble the opposite tendencies to a different degree.

    My SAT V/M balance was similar for subtest percentile (perhaps a little towards M), but a fair bit different numerically. Basing this on Figure 1. in https://www.ets.org/Media/Research/pdf/RR-02-04-Dorans.pdf
    That link is a detailed analysis of the 1995 SAT recentering. Among other interesting things it includes distribution histograms for the subtests by race using 1990 data.

    Read More
  182. @Twinkie

    The importance of not demeaning the non-university tracks
     
    Yes, absolutely. I acknowledge that this might be more difficult in the "winners takes all" culture of American capitalism compared to the more egalitarian Germany. But we have to start somewhere.

    Regarding your WV neighbors, how much encouragement do the most able get from their local communities?
     
    Mixed. They are mostly kind, honest, patriotic, good Christian folks who generally know that education is important, but because most smart people flee the area at the first opportunity and seldom return, good role models and mentors are scarce. The children's view of the society at large is strongly affected by the mass media, which of course is highly distorted. For many of them the military is the only way out. I should also note that entitlements have been a somewhat corrosive force (and of course, controlled substance abuse rate is very high).

    I know I come off as quite cocky online, but in person I don't talk down to those with less education. As a faithful Christian, I believe in the dignity of every human being, especially the members of my community and my fellow Americans in general. Both my wife and I have a strong egalitarian and Christian ethos, so our neighbors, though initially wary (Who are these people with fancy degrees? And the man of the house is Asian? Catholics?), they quickly deemed us "good people" and made us feel welcome and belong. They often seek our counsel regarding the education of their children as well as career paths.

    Thanks for the informative response.

    they quickly deemed us “good people” and made us feel welcome and belong

    It’s funny how people stereotyped as racist/intolerant/etc. can be remarkably accepting of like minded people who are superficially different. I grew up in an area notorious for racism (so much so that I ran across a coworker of foreign background thousands of miles away and years later who teased me about it! in a good humored way). But recently a black HS classmate and FB friend of mine posted a comment about his disbelieving response to someone (from outside) who asked him about some recent racial kerfuffle assuming he had a terrible time growing up there. His response was hilarious in a way that I think would play well here.

    Read More
  183. @Triumph104
    Sorry, I don't know anything about the new SAT besides what I've read on The Atlantic. I look at test scores to identify differences or patterns between and within groups. As far as I know the SAT isn't any easier. I assume the change was to benefit the most selective colleges. Higher scores would bring the averages of other races closer to the highest performing Asian-Americans and the top colleges could cap or even lower the number of admitted Asian-Americans.

    I could be wrong, but I will know for sure when College Board releases the SAT racial averages later this year or next year.

    Thanks for the response. It does appear that the scoring changed dramatically sometime between 2004 and 2016. Based on this from my other comment:

    I found this May 9, 2016 concordance: https://collegereadiness.collegeboard.org/pdf/higher-ed-brief-sat-concordance.pdf
    which includes tables for converting the 2005-2015 2400 point scale to the 2016 1600 point scale and the “old” (2004?) 1600 point scale to the new (2016?) 1600 point scale (new/old is the exact same terminology used in 1995 with a different meaning, is it too much to ask for more precision of terminology?!). The conversion factor for the latter is as large as 80 points at the center of the scale with exact equivalence at the extremes (contrast with 1995 which moved the ceiling 110 points).

    I’m having trouble interpreting the intent and likely effect of leaving the extremes fixed and moving the center of the distribution.

    Please post when you get the new information.

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  184. @res

    But let’s not be unnecessarily and graphically demeaning to another commenter, no matter how infuriating, obtuse or impolite she is. I am not her fan, to be mild about it, and I have had my moments of intemperate remarks, but let us, all here, try to walk the high road.
     
    Thanks for being a voice of reason and I will try. FWIW I try to set as a bound not escalating more than the other commenter did in responding to me (the respective deltas). Not sure if I met that criteria or not, but I do agree my comment was excessive in an absolute sense.

    I suspect that is a very low estimate. Neurosurgery is an extremely demanding – both cognitively and otherwise – specialty.
     
    That would be my thought as well. IIRC I saw a source giving an average of 108 IQ for electrical engineers which I also find unbelievable. One problem with going to elite colleges is it tends to skew ones sense of the abilities of different types (i.e. one tends to see the best of each profession) and I find it difficult to correct for that. I'd be interested in any data you have. The MCAT isn't an IQ test, but this site with MCAT scores by resident specialty might make a good starting point: https://www.aamc.org/data/448478/b1table.html

    More relevant to the overall discussion is this site which shows IQ distributions for both elementary and HS teachers: http://www.iqcomparisonsite.com/occupations.aspx

    The MCAT isn’t an IQ test

    I centainly hope so. I took GRE, LSAT, and MCAT ten years out of undergrad.

    Results: perfect GRE, LSAT, but MCAT kicked every last bit of my ass. It was bad.

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    • Replies: @res
    LOL. Thanks for the perspective. Would you be willing to elaborate on the characteristics of the MCAT? Was it full of specific science (e.g. organic chemistry) questions or was something else going on? Do you think the bigger issue was background/ability mismatch or lack of retention?

    I wonder how much of an IQ proxy the MCAT is within an audience that has recently completed a pre-med undergrad?

    P.S. Perfect GRE and LSAT is an impressive skillset. It would be interesting to hear more sometime about how you chose what to pursue and your results/hindsight perspective. Given iSteve's breadth of interests I imagine an appropriate context will eventually arise.
  185. @Desiderius

    The MCAT isn’t an IQ test
     
    I centainly hope so. I took GRE, LSAT, and MCAT ten years out of undergrad.

    Results: perfect GRE, LSAT, but MCAT kicked every last bit of my ass. It was bad.

    LOL. Thanks for the perspective. Would you be willing to elaborate on the characteristics of the MCAT? Was it full of specific science (e.g. organic chemistry) questions or was something else going on? Do you think the bigger issue was background/ability mismatch or lack of retention?

    I wonder how much of an IQ proxy the MCAT is within an audience that has recently completed a pre-med undergrad?

    P.S. Perfect GRE and LSAT is an impressive skillset. It would be interesting to hear more sometime about how you chose what to pursue and your results/hindsight perspective. Given iSteve’s breadth of interests I imagine an appropriate context will eventually arise.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Desiderius

    Was it full of specific science
     
    yes

    It would be interesting to hear more sometime about how you chose what to pursue and your results/hindsight perspective.
     
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Cgm9ZoXdrA

    In retrospect, some more sticktoitiveness might have be wiser. I have married well, so there's that.

  186. @res
    LOL. Thanks for the perspective. Would you be willing to elaborate on the characteristics of the MCAT? Was it full of specific science (e.g. organic chemistry) questions or was something else going on? Do you think the bigger issue was background/ability mismatch or lack of retention?

    I wonder how much of an IQ proxy the MCAT is within an audience that has recently completed a pre-med undergrad?

    P.S. Perfect GRE and LSAT is an impressive skillset. It would be interesting to hear more sometime about how you chose what to pursue and your results/hindsight perspective. Given iSteve's breadth of interests I imagine an appropriate context will eventually arise.

    Was it full of specific science

    yes

    It would be interesting to hear more sometime about how you chose what to pursue and your results/hindsight perspective.

    In retrospect, some more sticktoitiveness might have be wiser. I have married well, so there’s that.

    Read More
    • Replies: @res

    yes
     
    10 years later. Ouch.

    In retrospect, some more sticktoitiveness might have be wiser.
     
    Amen to that. Although my problem is less a lack of sticktoitiveness than difficulties properly focusing it on what should be my priorities.

    I have married well, so there’s that.
     
    Glad to hear it. Hopefully I can emulate you there.

    Thanks for the video. A great answer.
  187. @Desiderius

    Was it full of specific science
     
    yes

    It would be interesting to hear more sometime about how you chose what to pursue and your results/hindsight perspective.
     
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Cgm9ZoXdrA

    In retrospect, some more sticktoitiveness might have be wiser. I have married well, so there's that.

    yes

    10 years later. Ouch.

    In retrospect, some more sticktoitiveness might have be wiser.

    Amen to that. Although my problem is less a lack of sticktoitiveness than difficulties properly focusing it on what should be my priorities.

    I have married well, so there’s that.

    Glad to hear it. Hopefully I can emulate you there.

    Thanks for the video. A great answer.

    Read More
  188. So I thought of a counterargument against my assertion that prolific commenters on iSteve have an average IQ over 125. The basic idea is: “because of the population density of IQs, highly selected by IQ groups are likely to have IQ means near their lower end even if IQ is critically important to membership in the group.”

    This makes me less confident of my assertion (especially since I would not argue that IQ is critically important to commenting here, i.e. correlation rather than causation). What do other commenters think?

    For a more detailed exposition see http://www.unz.com/jthompson/the-secret-in-your-eyes/#comment-1803737

    Worth noting that my original assertion is IMHO consistent with a statement like “An SAT math score of 580 is above the average for ALL iSteve commenters.” I would not know whether to agree or disagree with that.

    However, ER made a much stronger statement in comment 98

    580 is above the average for all college grads. And relatively few people posting here managed much higher.

    and followed it with the charming

    Ignorance, again.

    so I still disagree with her actual statement.

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  189. @Negrolphin Pool
    This is exemplary of what us musicians sometimes refer to as cacophonous hippy trash.

    Ordinarily I wouldn’t respond to an insult from an uncultivated cur like yourself , I mean we all have our own taste in music right ? However you describe your self as a musician . And yet while you mock your betters you have neglected to provide us any examples of your own “artistry” . Could it be that your “talent” as a musician amounts to nothing more than the squeaks of a poorly house broken lap dog yapping at a real dog urinating on your lawn as he passes by on his way to fame and fortune ?

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  190. Ordinarily I wouldn’t respond to an insult

    That’s the only assumption you got even close to right. I’m kind of antisocial, in a DSM V way, to say I don’t seek your approval or admiration would be considerably understating the case. From your vantage point though, musically speaking, I would be hardly distinguishable from a god.

    Keep listening to the wrong stuff, you hack .

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