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Commenter Jack D writes:

The irony here is that this was not a United flight at all. This was a “United Express” flight that is run under contract with Republic Airline. United saves $ by having its shorter /lower capacity “commuter” flights operated under contract by Republic who pays its pilots bubkes. The pilot business is operated like the acting business where pilots hope to land a gig at a major and earn a decent living but few ever do and those that don’t barely make a living. Regional carrier pilots sleep in the airline terminal or their cars because they can’t afford a motel room. But for United, live by the sword, die by the sword – they lent their name out to Republic so now they have to live with the PR blowback from what Republic did with it.

Republic as a low rent operation refused to offer more than $800 to get a volunteer although they could have gone much higher. $800 is close to what they pay a pilot in a month. Cheaper to call the cops.

And the people who dragged the guy off the plane were not employees of either, but Chicago cops. So double irony – why is United getting the grief instead of the Chicago PD? I’m sure that the cops were not under instructions from either United or Republic to beat the crap out of the guy – that was their idea and/or lack of training in how to handle people. Chicago PD is used to handling dindus who are in no position to complain most of the time.

Speaking of being in no position, David Dao, the victim, has a “troubled past” as a pill doctor.

http://www.courier-journal.com/story/news/local/2017/04/11/david-dao-passenger-removed-united-flight-doctor-troubled-past/100318320/

In China, the good doctor’s removal is being spun as anti-Chinese racism. Sort of ironic that the Chinaman is now getting whites addicted to opium instead of vice versa – cosmic revenge I guess.

Is this confirmed? Did they get the identity right? Commenter Stebbing Heuer says:

The Dao that is spoken about is not the true Dao.

Back to Jack D:

So there are no heroes here, just a sordid rogue’s gallery of marginal players trying to scratch out a living in the sad twilight of the American empire, but streamed live and in color on your Korean cell phone.

 
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  1. guest says:

    Nobody’s gonna remember any of that. The most we can keep in our heads is “United bad” and “that guy was a bratty a-hole.”

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    • Replies: @bomag

    Nobody’s gonna remember any of that.
     
    But it is how narratives are built.

    After 37 stories and experiences of airlines acting like corporations from a William Gibson novel, people start to lose interest in helping them stay afloat. After enough stories and experiences of cops behaving badly, sympathy starts to wane.

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  2. Nope says:

    So this airline, Republic, only pays pilots $800 a month, and they sleep in their cars? That doesn’t seem believable. Am I missing something? Also, the NYT editorial about this that Steve posted the other day said the passenger, a doctor, was some kind of poor person who the company wouldn’t listen to. Has there been a huge shift recently in the incomes of previously high earning professionals like doctors and airline pilots?

    Read More
    • Replies: @JW Bell
    Bureau of Labor Statistics - "...airline pilots begin their careers earning about $20,000 per year. The average captain at a regional airline earns about $55,000 per year, "
    , @Hapalong Cassidy
    A buddy of mine pilots for one of those regional airlines out of Hartsfield. He makes about 27k per year. According to him, the worst thing isn't the pay, although it's pretty bad. It's the uneven schedule. If a flight comes up needing a pilot, you'd better take it, otherwise you might not get a chance next time.
    , @Dr. X

    So this airline, Republic, only pays pilots $800 a month, and they sleep in their cars? That doesn’t seem believable. Am I missing something?
     
    Yep. When the Continental/Colgan Air commuter flight crashed in Buffalo in 2009, it was revealed that the pilots were pretty much making Wal-Mart money, especially the 23-year old girl co-pilot, who was making something like $16,000.

    The captain was slightly better paid, but had minimal experience and literally didn't know how to fly the airplane. When it aerodynamically stalled, he pulled back on the yoke rather than pushing it forward. R.I.P., 50 people.

    That'll pucker you right up next time you book a flight...
    , @Triumph104
    In 2010 FRONTLINE did an investigative report on the safety of regional airlines. From what I remember, beginning regional pilots were making $19,000 a year and working crazy hours - not getting enough sleep.

    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/flyingcheap/

    Dr. Dao probably does have financial problems, but there is no way airline employees would have known that. Dr. David Dao's medical license was revoked for ten years and during that time at least four of his five children went through medical school. Among other things, Dr. Dao was found to have had sex with a male patient in exchange for supplying the guy with OxyContin and other drugs. Imagine the legal bills. Surely his problems didn't help his wife's medical practice flourish.
    , @Dr. DoomNGloom
    https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/airline-pilot-salary-SRCH_KO0,13.htm

    $800 may be an exaggeration, but $31,000 per year won't pay for motel stays, so the narrative seems more credible that I first assumed.
    , @Buffalo Joe
    Nope, A Continental Airlines commuter flight #3407, operated by Colgon Air, from Newark to Buffalo, crashed into Clarence Center, not more than five minutes from my house. Fifty people lost their lives including the pilot and co-pilot. The testimony and investigation into the pilots' experience and expertise was startling. I don't think that they made $30k each and yes they slept in their cars and worked other jobs and were both asleep when the "Icing Alarm" went off. Under stress and tired, they pulled back on the yoke as the plane started to nose dive, the proper move was to push forward and regain lift. Plane crashed into a residential neighborhood slamming into my wife's coworker's house, killing the husband and injuring Karen and one daughter. My neighbor, 6 houses over, was killed on the plane as was an friend's pregnant daughter. I went to three very sad funeral, with just a photo or two to represent the victim. The FAA and congressional committees held investigations and hearings and some training procedures were to be implemented, but sad to think that the kid in the from seat of the plane could earn more working a full time job at just $15 per hour.
    , @Daniel H
    A few years ago there was a plane crash in Buffalo New York. The airline was one of these regional carriers. Turns out the co-pilot, a young lady, was moonlighting at Starbucks or something like it. She was barely making above minimum wage as a pilot.

    I don't know how much experience she and the pilot had but on approach they mishandled a simple stall, doing precisely contrary to operating procedure when a stall hits. The pilot pulled up, bringing the nose higher in the air, worsening the stall, overriding computer warnings and the action of the throttle which automatically starts to dive, when he should have pushed the nose down and given the engines all they had. If he had done that, they would have been fine. How much did lack of experience, flying sporadically, taking part-time gigs when offered contribute to this crash? Hmmm.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colgan_Air_Flight_3407
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  3. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    People don’t realize how poorly paid most pilots are. There are more pilots than there are jobs, so the competition for spots at the major airlines is intense. But enough pilots are willing to work for the regional carriers –keeping the dream alive that they will someday land a good job– that the industry can get away with paying them next to nothing.

    You see an almost perfect parallel in higher education. People spend the best years of their lives making 15k a year as grad-student teaching assistants (or even less as adjuncts), hoping that a college will hire them for a real job someday.

    http://100rsns.blogspot.com/2014/10/94-it-warps-your-expectations.html

    How many industries work this way?

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    • Replies: @res

    How many industries work this way?
     
    Surprisingly many it seems. Other good examples are various internships and minor league athletics.
    , @Anonym
    In LA, every waitress is a struggling actress.

    Blogging is another such activity.

    You would think our host would be content with being perhaps the only professional blogger in the world, but living in LA even he has dabbled in the entertainment industry, right?
    , @J1234

    There are more pilots than there are jobs, so the competition for spots at the major airlines is intense. But enough pilots are willing to work for the regional carriers –keeping the dream alive that they will someday land a good job– that the industry can get away with paying them next to nothing...How many industries work this way?

     

    Also sounds like architects and (believe it or not) lawyers.
    , @415 reasons
    Biomedical research runs on this model
    , @Citizen of a Silly Country
    Journalism.
    , @27 year old
    The entire structure of wage/salary employment works this way on a meta level
    , @Anon
    "People don’t realize how poorly paid most pilots are. There are more pilots than there are jobs, so the competition for spots at the major airlines is intense."

    And there is global competition from foreign pilots.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmclgO6w0C0

    , @AnAnon
    And remember that there are still 94 million unemployed Americans.

    "How many industries work this way?" - All of them until labor scarcity is brought back.
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  4. Pretty good writing from Jack D.

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    • Replies: @Dieter Kief
    Two things - the 800 dollar payment for pilots. And then the end:

    ... a sordid rogue’s gallery of marginal players trying to scratch out a living in the sad twilight of the American empire, but streamed live and in color on your Korean cell phone.
     
    Plus the chinese "doctor" turning westerners into addicts.

    And the chinese version of this story: Racist Americans.

    And the fact, that they could have gone higher than 800 dollars quite easily -

    - but that this might somewhat have collided with the 800 dollar payment for the pilots.

    - - - That's all very interesting -

    Plus the fact, that Steve Sailer did notice how good it is and posted it seperately.

    All in all: iSteve is quite something.


    Very tiny question in the end: The 800 dollars, that's correct, isn't it?***

    *** would there be a link, showing that this is correct? Not that I would not trust Jack D. , but such a link might make the story even stronger.
    , @Jack D
    Thanks!
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  5. Nobody’s going to remember it because its essentially irrelevant. Those regional carriers may not be United, but they are essentially controlled by United. None of those passengers bought a ticket on ‘Republic’ Airline. They bought it on United. If there were problems in the terminal, nobody goes to the ‘Republic Airline’ desk for help. They go to United. It is likely that their ticket said ‘United Airline,’ and they, of they cared at all, learned that it was ‘Republic Airline’ when they got on the plane.

    If you don’t live at a major hub, you fly those regional airlines every single time you fly.

    Its irrelevant how much the pilots are paid. In fact, being bumped by an airline for a low-paid peon makes the whole situation worse; not better. Will my travel plans be cancelled next time because a cleaning lady for the airport bathroom is late for a Bat Mitzvah?

    Its irrelevant who called the cops: the point is that the cops were called.

    Its also less relevant that the cops misbehaved. The point is that the cops were called.

    Its also irrelevant that the doctor was a pill-pusher, or once cheated on his taxes, or was once caught picking his nose in public. The point is, he (like any of us could be) was treated the way he was.

    So the whole post is a collection of irrelevant facts. But, it had a witty final sentence, so I can see why you fell for it.

    joeyjoejoe

    Read More
    • Replies: @Rod1963
    Yep that's the point, it could happen to any of us. And it should worry people that the cops fucked up a old man without hesitation.

    This is right out of a police state. But no one see's it because it happened to some sleazy Asian old dude and that makes it's okay.Usually when it happens to whites, it doesn't even make the news at all or at best you get a generic blurb in some local paper.

    The fact that you have no rights once you board that aircraft is scary as hell, best reason not to fly them. Oh yeah the abuse we get from the TSA tops it. They even humiliate cripples, the sick and children. and you folks take that shit like a bunch of eloi and betas.

    The fact that the po po can take you out and make you look like a interrogation victim in short order should make you think twice about supporting this crap and the cops. Who BTW aren't your friend and will turn on you if ordered to. Remember Boston where Boston SWAT was throwing people out of their houses at gunpoint? Bet you folks who think sending a old man to the hospital approved of this stuff.
    , @Anonymous
    In this case "the cops" aren't even The Cops. Those guys were some rent-a-thugs called the Chicago Aviation Police. They aren't even under the police commissioner in Chicago. Just because you spent four years changing the oil on Humvees doesn't make you a cop. These numb-nuts criminalized a contract dispute.
    , @Clark Westwood

    Its also irrelevant that the doctor was a pill-pusher, or once cheated on his taxes, or was once caught picking his nose in public.
     
    It is relevant that he screamed like a little girl. I mean, c'mon, dude.
    , @eD
    The "agree" thing doesn't seem to work if you are not tweeting, but joeyjoejoe makes excellent points.
    , @HEL
    You seem to be under the impression that purchasing a ticket on a plane gives you some sort of immutable, legally-enforceable right to be on the flight. This is incorrect. It's incorrect under current regulations and it would be incorrect under traditional contract law. The legal tradition you are defending is wholly imaginary.

    So whatever the import of these tertiary issues, they are definitely more salient than your false assertions regarding the doctors right to remain on the plane. And if you really want to die on the hill of "No involuntary bumping! EVER!" well okay. But don't call that conservatism, as you have elsewhere, because it ain't.
    , @Moshe
    Aside for your witty final sentence I agree. (For the record, Steve fell for it because he doesn't fly much and also because he defers to police way more than many of us do. I don't think he's the shallow sort who would fall for a good line.)

    I do however think that the police problem on display was bigger than the airline one.

    We have granted authorities total control at the airport and on the airplane and this sort of thing is the obvious result.
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  6. Nope says:

    I don’t have much sympathy for the passenger. He seems like another entitled minority to me. The whole thing reminds me of the white cop who slammed the black girl to the ground that wouldn’t get out of her desk at school a few years ago. When are people gonna learn to do what the cops say and to sort it out later?

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    • Replies: @utu
    "When are people gonna learn to do what the cops say and to sort it out later?"

    When Americans will learn to have higher expectations for cops behavior? You, probably never.
    , @ATBOTL
    "When are people gonna learn to do what the cops say and to sort it out later?"

    That's the kind of mindless obedience to authority that has served white Americans so poorly.
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  7. Veracitor says:

    Nah, they couldn’t legally have gone higher (though really they ought to have done so anyway), because there is an FAA regulation (requested by the airlines, of course) setting a maximum limit to denied-boarding compensation. The airlines don’t want to go higher, because word would get around, then every time they asked for volunteers people would hold out until the price got very high. So they offer some money, but not enough to get people off a Sunday night flight home when everyone has to go to work the next day, then when that predictably fails they start forcing people off.

    They also refuse to supply a ticket on the very next flight– because that would result in a cascade of bumps, so instead they often impose a long delay on bumpees to a less-full flight, but who can wait so long?

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    • Replies: @Das
    The FAA regulation sets the amount that airlines are required to pay to passengers who are involuntarily bumped.

    It doesn't set any limit on what airlines can pay passengers who agree to be bumped voluntarily. That's not regulated, and is worked out between the airline and the passenger.

    They could have offered extra money to entice passengers to leave the plane voluntarily and avoid the scene. They decided to be cheap.
    , @mobi

    The airlines don’t want to go higher, because word would get around, then every time they asked for volunteers people would hold out until the price got very high.
     
    It occurred to me they're doubly in trouble because they upped their initial offer from $400.

    'Your honor, my client quite reasonably refused to leave because he assumed, if they were willing to go from $400 to $800 when no one took the offer, they might go higher still if he held out for more.

    When he did, they beat the crap out of him.'
    , @Bill Jones
    The usual ticket fine print refers to "denial of boarding" if the flight is overbooked.

    That was not the case here.
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  8. utu says:
    @Nope
    I don't have much sympathy for the passenger. He seems like another entitled minority to me. The whole thing reminds me of the white cop who slammed the black girl to the ground that wouldn't get out of her desk at school a few years ago. When are people gonna learn to do what the cops say and to sort it out later?

    “When are people gonna learn to do what the cops say and to sort it out later?”

    When Americans will learn to have higher expectations for cops behavior? You, probably never.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Percy Gryce
    Entitled (and somewhat crazy) minority and overaggressive cops.

    Why can't both things be true?
    , @ussr andy

    When Americans will learn to have higher expectations for cops behavior?
     
    so long as 80-90% of this stuff happens to the right kind of people, people who matter, everyone else is gonna put up with this and ask for more of it. America is too big.
    , @Nope
    Wow, Steve is right about people in America having short memories. A year ago everyone on this blog was backing cops when they were being picked off by black terrorists.

    This is one of those incidents that happens in a big country, but each side of the political spectrum spins for its own ends. Lind say "Look how soulless and greedy corporations are" or "Look how bad minorities are treated", while conservatives say "Look how the state helps corporations screw over the little guy".
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  9. Twinkie says:

    The pilot business is operated like the acting business where pilots hope to land a gig at a major and earn a decent living but few ever do and those that don’t barely make a living. Regional carrier pilots sleep in the airline terminal or their cars because they can’t afford a motel room.

    I agree with the sentiment of this paragraph, but not the specifics. I have a friend who flies a regional jet for a United Express affiliate. While he isn’t rich, he makes a decent, above average living for a no-name college grad, on par with a primary care doctor. But, yes, he is hoping to make his way up and, one day, fly a large jet for an international route that will lead to a decent six-figure income… on par with a specialist doctor.

    Far from sleeping in his car, he gets free rides to his origination airport from his hometown 1,300 miles away (he’s on a few days and off a few days, so commutes from one city to his home base for the flights and then comes home to his family once he is off).

    Republic as a low rent operation refused to offer more than $800 to get a volunteer although they could have gone much higher. $800 is close to what they pay a pilot in a month. Cheaper to call the cops.

    I quoted in another thread that United’s average bumping compensation is measly $500+ (third lowest in the business) while Alaska and JetBlue are on average $1600+ and $1200+ respectively.

    Chicago cops

    Lack of training and/or poor judgment, period. This my lengthy comment in the other thread.

    why is United getting the grief

    Because, essentially, United’s affiliated business instigated the whole incident when it could have been handled much, much better.

    Speaking of being in no position, David Dao, the victim, has a “troubled past” as a pill doctor.

    In this particular episode, it doesn’t matter what the man’s past was. I assign a part of the blame to him for his own refusal to deplane voluntarily (again, as I stated elsewhere, comply, but indicate under duress, then work out a remedy later in a civil setting) contributing to this fiasco. But he didn’t deserve to get his face bashed against an armrest, then dragged on the floor of a plane for his obstinacy.

    Sort of ironic that the Chinaman is now getting whites addicted to opium instead of vice versa – cosmic revenge I guess.

    That was the British. So it’s not cosmic or a revenge at all.

    So there are no heroes here, just a sordid rogue’s gallery of marginal players trying to scratch out a living in the sad twilight of the American empire, but streamed live and in color on your Korean cell phone.

    This should be the masthead for this blog.

    On the other hand, things are rarely as bad as they seem (or as great as they seem when things go well). America is not preordained to doom. There are many contingencies that can lead to a glorious renewal.

    Indeed, there are stories with heroes in them (some even involving air travel), but then they make things go well and we never hear about those stories. Don’t forget the selection bias of the media business in general. All bad news.

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    • Replies: @res


    So there are no heroes here, just a sordid rogue’s gallery of marginal players trying to scratch out a living in the sad twilight of the American empire, but streamed live and in color on your Korean cell phone.
     
    This should be the masthead for this blog.
     
    LOL! (literally)
    , @Buck Turgidson
    I know a guy from my hometown who grew up dreaming to be a pilot. His dad had a plane, he got lots of training as a kid. Smart guy, could think on his feet, fearless but not stupid, he was good. Went into the Navy, became a fighter pilot. Got out, went to work for Northwest. Worked 'weights and balances' for years hoping to move up. Never did, bagged it, now he's working in real estate. What do I know but that industry looks pretty tough. I think the parallel w higher education is a good one, so you think you are going to get that teaching gig w your PhD? Where? Berkeley or East Texas in Commerce?
    , @celt darnell

    Sort of ironic that the Chinaman is now getting whites addicted to opium instead of vice versa – cosmic revenge I guess.
     

    That was the British. So it’s not cosmic or a revenge at all.
     
    Yeah, but don't you get it, Twinkie? As a white person, you're guilty of all the crimes all white people have committed throughout history.

    This is why you're guilty of the crimes of the Third Reich even if your father or grandfather fought under Patton.

    , @Father O'Hara
    Wasn't it the Jews that supplied the drugs,doing John Bulls dirty work.
    , @RadicalCenter
    If your friend doesn't earn $100,000 per year, he definitely doesn't earn what a primary care doctor does, not even in a small town. The guy who was at the bottom of his Med school class and barely passed his exams and now works at an urgent care clinic doing mostly very basic repetitive things, earns more than that.

    There are plenty of lawyers earning less than $100 k. Not so with medical doctors.

    , @mobi

    That was the British. So it’s not cosmic or a revenge at all.
     
    A distinction likely lost on Chinese netizens, apparently enraged that the good (Vietnamese) doctor was targeted because he was 'Asian'.

    Because Yellow, not white, in other words.
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  10. Yan Shen says:

    Asian Lives Matter (Too)? Ha ha…

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  11. JW Bell says:
    @Nope
    So this airline, Republic, only pays pilots $800 a month, and they sleep in their cars? That doesn't seem believable. Am I missing something? Also, the NYT editorial about this that Steve posted the other day said the passenger, a doctor, was some kind of poor person who the company wouldn't listen to. Has there been a huge shift recently in the incomes of previously high earning professionals like doctors and airline pilots?

    Bureau of Labor Statistics – “…airline pilots begin their careers earning about $20,000 per year. The average captain at a regional airline earns about $55,000 per year, “

    Read More
    • Replies: @The Anti-Gnostic

    Bureau of Labor Statistics – “…airline pilots begin their careers earning about $20,000 per year. The average captain at a regional airline earns about $55,000 per year, “
     
    I would really like the person with my life in his hands at 30,000 feet to be making more money than that.
    , @Barnard
    How do they get anyone to fly planes for $20k a year? You can make more at any number of menial jobs with a fraction of the stress level.
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  12. Rod1963 says:
    @joeyjoejoe
    Nobody's going to remember it because its essentially irrelevant. Those regional carriers may not be United, but they are essentially controlled by United. None of those passengers bought a ticket on 'Republic' Airline. They bought it on United. If there were problems in the terminal, nobody goes to the 'Republic Airline' desk for help. They go to United. It is likely that their ticket said 'United Airline,' and they, of they cared at all, learned that it was 'Republic Airline' when they got on the plane.

    If you don't live at a major hub, you fly those regional airlines every single time you fly.

    Its irrelevant how much the pilots are paid. In fact, being bumped by an airline for a low-paid peon makes the whole situation worse; not better. Will my travel plans be cancelled next time because a cleaning lady for the airport bathroom is late for a Bat Mitzvah?

    Its irrelevant who called the cops: the point is that the cops were called.

    Its also less relevant that the cops misbehaved. The point is that the cops were called.

    Its also irrelevant that the doctor was a pill-pusher, or once cheated on his taxes, or was once caught picking his nose in public. The point is, he (like any of us could be) was treated the way he was.

    So the whole post is a collection of irrelevant facts. But, it had a witty final sentence, so I can see why you fell for it.

    joeyjoejoe

    Yep that’s the point, it could happen to any of us. And it should worry people that the cops fucked up a old man without hesitation.

    This is right out of a police state. But no one see’s it because it happened to some sleazy Asian old dude and that makes it’s okay.Usually when it happens to whites, it doesn’t even make the news at all or at best you get a generic blurb in some local paper.

    The fact that you have no rights once you board that aircraft is scary as hell, best reason not to fly them. Oh yeah the abuse we get from the TSA tops it. They even humiliate cripples, the sick and children. and you folks take that shit like a bunch of eloi and betas.

    The fact that the po po can take you out and make you look like a interrogation victim in short order should make you think twice about supporting this crap and the cops. Who BTW aren’t your friend and will turn on you if ordered to. Remember Boston where Boston SWAT was throwing people out of their houses at gunpoint? Bet you folks who think sending a old man to the hospital approved of this stuff.

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    • Replies: @bomag
    Spot on comment.

    One problem is that police are spooled up to handle the worst among us; thus the criminal class determines police behavior. We need a better criminal class.
    , @Nico
    It's not an either/or situation. One need not defend the Chicago PD (which like almost any other public institution in Cook County is indefensible) to express alarm that EVERY misdeed, negative feedback or even constructive criticism directed at a human who happens not to be straight, white, male and middle-aged is held up as "INSTITUTIONAL RACISM" at every level of "OUR" OWN INTELLIGENTSIA. And now it's being taken in by the Home Country propaganda machine, which can count on the support of "our" own to make its point against us.

    Intellectually, I am not in favor of a structure sensu "White Nationalist" regime but I also as a white man acknowledge that if things keep going the way they are I will be forced to choose between a White Nationalist paradigm and a horrific dispossession/death for myself and for most everyone I love. I will choose the former in a second.
    , @27 year old
    >you folks take that shit like a bunch of eloi and betas

    Yawn. Tell us all about the alpha male violent resistance you've done
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  13. wren says:

    Sounds like we are living in Snow Crash.

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  14. @Opinionator
    Pretty good writing from Jack D.

    Two things – the 800 dollar payment for pilots. And then the end:

    … a sordid rogue’s gallery of marginal players trying to scratch out a living in the sad twilight of the American empire, but streamed live and in color on your Korean cell phone.

    Plus the chinese “doctor” turning westerners into addicts.

    And the chinese version of this story: Racist Americans.

    And the fact, that they could have gone higher than 800 dollars quite easily -

    - but that this might somewhat have collided with the 800 dollar payment for the pilots.

    - – – That’s all very interesting –

    Plus the fact, that Steve Sailer did notice how good it is and posted it seperately.

    All in all: iSteve is quite something.

    Very tiny question in the end: The 800 dollars, that’s correct, isn’t it?***

    *** would there be a link, showing that this is correct? Not that I would not trust Jack D. , but such a link might make the story even stronger.

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    • Replies: @Jack D
    http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/passengers-continental-flight-3407-sleep-deprived-pilot-underpaid-co-pilot-article-1.372796

    Starting regional pilots get $23/hr but the clock only starts when the wheels leave the ground and ends when you touch down so the effective hourly pay is maybe 1/2 of that - you might only get paid for 15 or 20 hrs of flying/week even though this is your only job. So the man/woman (increasingly woman) with his/her life in your hands is making Wal-Mart cashier wages and probably has debt from pilot training as well.
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  15. res says:
    @Anonymous
    People don't realize how poorly paid most pilots are. There are more pilots than there are jobs, so the competition for spots at the major airlines is intense. But enough pilots are willing to work for the regional carriers --keeping the dream alive that they will someday land a good job-- that the industry can get away with paying them next to nothing.

    You see an almost perfect parallel in higher education. People spend the best years of their lives making 15k a year as grad-student teaching assistants (or even less as adjuncts), hoping that a college will hire them for a real job someday.

    http://100rsns.blogspot.com/2014/10/94-it-warps-your-expectations.html

    How many industries work this way?

    How many industries work this way?

    Surprisingly many it seems. Other good examples are various internships and minor league athletics.

    Read More
    • Replies: @bomag

    How many industries work this way?
     
    Volunteer organizations?, though a lot of them devolve into money grubbers.

    I often wonder if we would be better off organizing society purely on a volunteer basis, sort of an ersatz communism: "from each according to what they are willing to do for the group". It would require the establishment and maintenance of a high trust society, and you would get away from people moving in purely to make a buck.
    , @slumber_j

    Other good examples are various internships and minor league athletics.
     
    Yeah, but in the case of minor league athletics I suspect the player-employees become pretty aware of their prospects pretty quickly. And if they don't, the ball club makes them aware: it's in nobody's interest to have inadequate talent clogging up the system, so minor-league baseball e.g. is an extremely up-or-out proposition.

    As for internships, they are of course a total scam that favors the rich on both sides of the labor-market equation--both the rich kids who can afford to work for free for a while and the business owners who benefit from their free labor.
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  16. res says:
    @Twinkie

    The pilot business is operated like the acting business where pilots hope to land a gig at a major and earn a decent living but few ever do and those that don’t barely make a living. Regional carrier pilots sleep in the airline terminal or their cars because they can’t afford a motel room.
     
    I agree with the sentiment of this paragraph, but not the specifics. I have a friend who flies a regional jet for a United Express affiliate. While he isn't rich, he makes a decent, above average living for a no-name college grad, on par with a primary care doctor. But, yes, he is hoping to make his way up and, one day, fly a large jet for an international route that will lead to a decent six-figure income... on par with a specialist doctor.

    Far from sleeping in his car, he gets free rides to his origination airport from his hometown 1,300 miles away (he's on a few days and off a few days, so commutes from one city to his home base for the flights and then comes home to his family once he is off).

    Republic as a low rent operation refused to offer more than $800 to get a volunteer although they could have gone much higher. $800 is close to what they pay a pilot in a month. Cheaper to call the cops.
     
    I quoted in another thread that United's average bumping compensation is measly $500+ (third lowest in the business) while Alaska and JetBlue are on average $1600+ and $1200+ respectively.

    Chicago cops
     
    Lack of training and/or poor judgment, period. This my lengthy comment in the other thread.

    why is United getting the grief
     
    Because, essentially, United's affiliated business instigated the whole incident when it could have been handled much, much better.

    Speaking of being in no position, David Dao, the victim, has a “troubled past” as a pill doctor.
     
    In this particular episode, it doesn't matter what the man's past was. I assign a part of the blame to him for his own refusal to deplane voluntarily (again, as I stated elsewhere, comply, but indicate under duress, then work out a remedy later in a civil setting) contributing to this fiasco. But he didn't deserve to get his face bashed against an armrest, then dragged on the floor of a plane for his obstinacy.

    Sort of ironic that the Chinaman is now getting whites addicted to opium instead of vice versa – cosmic revenge I guess.
     
    That was the British. So it's not cosmic or a revenge at all.

    So there are no heroes here, just a sordid rogue’s gallery of marginal players trying to scratch out a living in the sad twilight of the American empire, but streamed live and in color on your Korean cell phone.
     
    This should be the masthead for this blog.

    On the other hand, things are rarely as bad as they seem (or as great as they seem when things go well). America is not preordained to doom. There are many contingencies that can lead to a glorious renewal.

    Indeed, there are stories with heroes in them (some even involving air travel), but then they make things go well and we never hear about those stories. Don't forget the selection bias of the media business in general. All bad news.

    So there are no heroes here, just a sordid rogue’s gallery of marginal players trying to scratch out a living in the sad twilight of the American empire, but streamed live and in color on your Korean cell phone.

    This should be the masthead for this blog.

    LOL! (literally)

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  17. It’s looking like there are two Drs. David Dao. The one who was disaccommodated is not the one with the checkered past.

    https://twitter.com/_ClaireConnelly/status/852036052286033921

    Read More
    • Replies: @Inquiring Mind
    I have no corroboration how many Drs. Dao are involved. But from how Mr. Trump gets covered in the press, I don't know whether anything can be believed, either.
    , @celt darnell
    Couldn't happen to better folk.
    , @snorlax
    Fake; plane Dao is pill Dao.
    , @eD
    If Dao's lawyers can trace alot of these negative commentson Dao and his medical practice to United's PR flacks, they might as well throw in a defamation lawsuit too.
    , @Triumph104
    Claire Connelly has already deleted the tweet that you posted. I am a day late on the story, so if there were any reports confusing the two doctors, I didn't find them with a quick search.

    Connelly is an Australian journalist and seems to have trouble wrapping her head around the idea that in the US two people with the same name can each be licensed to practice medicine in different states.

    https://twitter.com/_ClaireConnelly/status/852123296669814784

    , @Stebbing Heuer
    The Dao that is spoken about is not the true Dao.
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  18. Das says:
    @Veracitor
    Nah, they couldn't legally have gone higher (though really they ought to have done so anyway), because there is an FAA regulation (requested by the airlines, of course) setting a maximum limit to denied-boarding compensation. The airlines don't want to go higher, because word would get around, then every time they asked for volunteers people would hold out until the price got very high. So they offer some money, but not enough to get people off a Sunday night flight home when everyone has to go to work the next day, then when that predictably fails they start forcing people off.

    They also refuse to supply a ticket on the very next flight-- because that would result in a cascade of bumps, so instead they often impose a long delay on bumpees to a less-full flight, but who can wait so long?

    The FAA regulation sets the amount that airlines are required to pay to passengers who are involuntarily bumped.

    It doesn’t set any limit on what airlines can pay passengers who agree to be bumped voluntarily. That’s not regulated, and is worked out between the airline and the passenger.

    They could have offered extra money to entice passengers to leave the plane voluntarily and avoid the scene. They decided to be cheap.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Veracitor
    Perhaps I misinterpreted this Federal regulation (14 CFR 250.5) (excerpt below, emphasis added):

    (a) Subject to the exceptions provided in § 250.6, a carrier to whom this part applies as described in § 250.2 shall pay compensation in interstate air transportation to passengers who are denied boarding involuntarily from an oversold flight as follows:
     

    (3) Compensation shall be 400% of the fare to the passenger's destination or first stopover, with a maximum of $1,350, if the carrier does not offer alternate transportation that, at the time the arrangement is made, is planned to arrive at the airport of the passenger's first stopover, or if none, the airport of the passenger's final destination less than two hours after the planned arrival time of the passenger's original flight.
     
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  19. Last I heard, the cops were not Chicago cops. They were employees of a private security firm.

    I consider this incident just more evidence of the power of private enterprises (in this instance, United, its Republic feeder-liner contractor, and the private security goon firm) ratcheting up their power over all of us – a parallel to which is the constantly ratcheting-up power of tech firms, such as local internet provider monopolies and communications firms in surveillance bed with the equally evermore intrusive and exploitive federal Government behemoth. Ever heard of the New Feudalism?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jack D
    Half right - they were not Chicago PD but they were unionized employees of the Chicago Dept. of Aviation security, which is part of the city government of Chicago . A lot of govt. agencies have their own cops separate from the main police force - NYC has Transit Police in the subway, Housing Police in the projects, etc. Then universities, etc. have their own armed and sworn officer police forces (in addition to private security guards).

    https://chicago.taleo.net/careersection/100/jobdetail.ftl?job=99860&lang=en

    In a society that is increasingly paramilitarized and deindustrialized, these jobs are a growth area.
    , @Wilkey
    I consider this incident just more evidence of the power of private enterprises (in this instance, United, its Republic feeder-liner contractor, and the private security goon firm) ratcheting up their power over all of us

    Their power to remove you from their plane? Oh the nerve of them!

    We tend to think of flying as a right because we paid hundreds of dollars (or more) for a ticket in advance and if we can't fly it may take us a long time to reach our destination. But ultimately it isn't a right, and there may be times when the airlines, for whatever reason, can't or won't serve us.
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  20. Ed says:

    It really disturbs me that this guy is going to get rewarded for acting like a brat. While the 3 people that left before him without incident, will not.

    This is a bad message to send to society.

    Read More
    • Agree: Mark Caplan
    • Replies: @Loveofknowledge
    I agree totally. I hate seeing squeaky wheels get oiled.

    If I got bumped off a flight, I would just think "oh, that sucks" and go hit the airport bar. That's because I'm a grownup.

    It would never in a million years occur to me to just say "no, I'm not going" like a spoiled, entitled, self-centered, bratty, petulant two-year-old.

    This guy is not a sympathetic victim. Maybe getting bashed in the head will have knocked some much-needed sense into him.

    He owes the airline and other passengers an apology. He should say "sorry I acted like a jerk and necessitated you calling security to physically remove me from the plane."

    We put up with so much nonsense anymore. You get more of what you tolerate and reward and encourage.
    , @Inquiring Mind
    Sur cette compagnie aérienne, il est bon de sangloter un médecin de temps en temps, pour encourager les autres.

    (On this airline, it is good to bloody a doctor from time to time, to encourage the others.)

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  21. @utu
    "When are people gonna learn to do what the cops say and to sort it out later?"

    When Americans will learn to have higher expectations for cops behavior? You, probably never.

    Entitled (and somewhat crazy) minority and overaggressive cops.

    Why can’t both things be true?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Danindc
    I like my cops aggressive. The "doctor" can go F himself. He's a parasite.
    , @a Newsreader
    And both feed back on each other, and both are symptoms of the decline of civil society and social capital.
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  22. bomag says:
    @guest
    Nobody's gonna remember any of that. The most we can keep in our heads is "United bad" and "that guy was a bratty a-hole."

    Nobody’s gonna remember any of that.

    But it is how narratives are built.

    After 37 stories and experiences of airlines acting like corporations from a William Gibson novel, people start to lose interest in helping them stay afloat. After enough stories and experiences of cops behaving badly, sympathy starts to wane.

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  23. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @joeyjoejoe
    Nobody's going to remember it because its essentially irrelevant. Those regional carriers may not be United, but they are essentially controlled by United. None of those passengers bought a ticket on 'Republic' Airline. They bought it on United. If there were problems in the terminal, nobody goes to the 'Republic Airline' desk for help. They go to United. It is likely that their ticket said 'United Airline,' and they, of they cared at all, learned that it was 'Republic Airline' when they got on the plane.

    If you don't live at a major hub, you fly those regional airlines every single time you fly.

    Its irrelevant how much the pilots are paid. In fact, being bumped by an airline for a low-paid peon makes the whole situation worse; not better. Will my travel plans be cancelled next time because a cleaning lady for the airport bathroom is late for a Bat Mitzvah?

    Its irrelevant who called the cops: the point is that the cops were called.

    Its also less relevant that the cops misbehaved. The point is that the cops were called.

    Its also irrelevant that the doctor was a pill-pusher, or once cheated on his taxes, or was once caught picking his nose in public. The point is, he (like any of us could be) was treated the way he was.

    So the whole post is a collection of irrelevant facts. But, it had a witty final sentence, so I can see why you fell for it.

    joeyjoejoe

    In this case “the cops” aren’t even The Cops. Those guys were some rent-a-thugs called the Chicago Aviation Police. They aren’t even under the police commissioner in Chicago. Just because you spent four years changing the oil on Humvees doesn’t make you a cop. These numb-nuts criminalized a contract dispute.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Art Deco
    I think it would be condign punishment if one or more of them caused you to have a nasty accident.
    , @Anon
    It's typical of the Narrative that the race of the passenger is discussed but not the race of the 'cops'.
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  24. bomag says:
    @res

    How many industries work this way?
     
    Surprisingly many it seems. Other good examples are various internships and minor league athletics.

    How many industries work this way?

    Volunteer organizations?, though a lot of them devolve into money grubbers.

    I often wonder if we would be better off organizing society purely on a volunteer basis, sort of an ersatz communism: “from each according to what they are willing to do for the group”. It would require the establishment and maintenance of a high trust society, and you would get away from people moving in purely to make a buck.

    Read More
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  25. “So there are no heroes here, just a sordid rogue’s gallery of marginal players trying to scratch out a living in the sad twilight of the American empire, but streamed live and in color on your Korean cell phone.”
    Give that Jack D. a column!

    Read More
    • Replies: @Buck Turgidson
    I agree. That's good stuff Jack D. "sad twilight of the American empire.... " Right on
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  26. bomag says:
    @Rod1963
    Yep that's the point, it could happen to any of us. And it should worry people that the cops fucked up a old man without hesitation.

    This is right out of a police state. But no one see's it because it happened to some sleazy Asian old dude and that makes it's okay.Usually when it happens to whites, it doesn't even make the news at all or at best you get a generic blurb in some local paper.

    The fact that you have no rights once you board that aircraft is scary as hell, best reason not to fly them. Oh yeah the abuse we get from the TSA tops it. They even humiliate cripples, the sick and children. and you folks take that shit like a bunch of eloi and betas.

    The fact that the po po can take you out and make you look like a interrogation victim in short order should make you think twice about supporting this crap and the cops. Who BTW aren't your friend and will turn on you if ordered to. Remember Boston where Boston SWAT was throwing people out of their houses at gunpoint? Bet you folks who think sending a old man to the hospital approved of this stuff.

    Spot on comment.

    One problem is that police are spooled up to handle the worst among us; thus the criminal class determines police behavior. We need a better criminal class.

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  27. jill says:

    No mention of the three other passengers who disembarked when legally told to do so. I certainly hope Dao is now on the “Do Not Fly List”. He can walk home to Kentucky now.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Peripatetic commenter
    Hell yeah. Actually, they should have executed him on the spot for having the temerity to demand shit he had no right to! Did he think he was black or something? That would also have had the salutatory effect of reminding all the other passengers from non-protected classes of their real place in society.
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  28. What everyone appears to be missing is that the doctor didn’t just get up and exit the plane when the cops arrived. He struggled, like the crazy entitled drama queen Boomer that he is. Who among us would behave that? Certainly not me. When the situation escalates to the point where guys in uniform are standing next to my seat, I’d just swallow my anger, get up, and go. Not this guy. The cops actually had to grab him. It should not be necessary for them to do that. Any civilized adult should just get up at that point, however unfair the situation may be.

    I don’t know exactly what happened next. Maybe the guy just sat there like dead weight. Maybe he hit one of the police officers, or bit them, or something. Again, the cops never should have had to touch the passenger, and the fact that had to resort to force is entirely the passenger’s fault. Once they touched him, did they use excessive force? Sure looks like they did. I can’t justify what happened next. The cops better have a darn good explanation, because it looks pretty bad for them.

    And I’m sure the doctor’s behavior prior to the arrival of the cops was just as belligerent and unreasonable — that’s why the cops were called. Flight attendants deal with unreasonable and belligerent passengers all the time. But this guy was so bad that the cops were called. I’m sure there is more to the story here.

    People are also very unreasonable about airport security. It is not that much more intrusive today than it was before 9/11. They had metal detectors before 9/11. Today you have to take off your shoes and go though that awful scanner, but overall the process isn’t that much different — there have always been long lines, searches, etc.. The TSA clerks have never been particularly rude to me, they are just generic government workers. It’s not like the minimum wage security guards who preceded them were models of courtesy and efficiency.

    Something about air travel really seems to make people whine and act petulant.

    Jack D’s comment was magnificent — “here are no heroes here, just a sordid rogue’s gallery of marginal players trying to scratch out a living in the sad twilight of the American empire, but streamed live and in color on your Korean cell phone” — is one for the ages.

    Read More
    • Agree: Clyde
    • Replies: @bomag

    Any civilized adult should just get up at that point, however unfair the situation may be.
     
    Part of me agrees, but it rankles me that I'm eating doo-doo on a regular basis in service to this kind of mendacity; some push back is in order, and this ended up as a pretty effective protest.
    , @dfordoom

    Flight attendants deal with unreasonable and belligerent passengers all the time. But this guy was so bad that the cops were called.
     
    It sounds to me like the airline was being unreasonable and belligerent.

    Maybe this guy just got really sick of being pushed around by companies who think they can treat their customers like dirt?
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  29. Nico says:
    @Rod1963
    Yep that's the point, it could happen to any of us. And it should worry people that the cops fucked up a old man without hesitation.

    This is right out of a police state. But no one see's it because it happened to some sleazy Asian old dude and that makes it's okay.Usually when it happens to whites, it doesn't even make the news at all or at best you get a generic blurb in some local paper.

    The fact that you have no rights once you board that aircraft is scary as hell, best reason not to fly them. Oh yeah the abuse we get from the TSA tops it. They even humiliate cripples, the sick and children. and you folks take that shit like a bunch of eloi and betas.

    The fact that the po po can take you out and make you look like a interrogation victim in short order should make you think twice about supporting this crap and the cops. Who BTW aren't your friend and will turn on you if ordered to. Remember Boston where Boston SWAT was throwing people out of their houses at gunpoint? Bet you folks who think sending a old man to the hospital approved of this stuff.

    It’s not an either/or situation. One need not defend the Chicago PD (which like almost any other public institution in Cook County is indefensible) to express alarm that EVERY misdeed, negative feedback or even constructive criticism directed at a human who happens not to be straight, white, male and middle-aged is held up as “INSTITUTIONAL RACISM” at every level of “OUR” OWN INTELLIGENTSIA. And now it’s being taken in by the Home Country propaganda machine, which can count on the support of “our” own to make its point against us.

    Intellectually, I am not in favor of a structure sensu “White Nationalist” regime but I also as a white man acknowledge that if things keep going the way they are I will be forced to choose between a White Nationalist paradigm and a horrific dispossession/death for myself and for most everyone I love. I will choose the former in a second.

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  30. slumber_j says:
    @res

    How many industries work this way?
     
    Surprisingly many it seems. Other good examples are various internships and minor league athletics.

    Other good examples are various internships and minor league athletics.

    Yeah, but in the case of minor league athletics I suspect the player-employees become pretty aware of their prospects pretty quickly. And if they don’t, the ball club makes them aware: it’s in nobody’s interest to have inadequate talent clogging up the system, so minor-league baseball e.g. is an extremely up-or-out proposition.

    As for internships, they are of course a total scam that favors the rich on both sides of the labor-market equation–both the rich kids who can afford to work for free for a while and the business owners who benefit from their free labor.

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  31. @JW Bell
    Bureau of Labor Statistics - "...airline pilots begin their careers earning about $20,000 per year. The average captain at a regional airline earns about $55,000 per year, "

    Bureau of Labor Statistics – “…airline pilots begin their careers earning about $20,000 per year. The average captain at a regional airline earns about $55,000 per year, “

    I would really like the person with my life in his hands at 30,000 feet to be making more money than that.

    Read More
    • Replies: @slumber_j
    Right, for the same reason that discount sushi isn't a good deal. I'll pay full price, thank you very much--or just eat something else.
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  32. Chriscom says:

    An industry site I checked says a first officer with a year under his belt at Republic averages $40,000 in base pay plus benefits. A captain with four years, $80,000.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jim Don Bob
    Big whoop. First year kindergarten teachers here in the Peoples' Republic make more than that, and I think learning how to fly a plane is a tad bit harder than getting a BA in Education.
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  33. @Ed
    It really disturbs me that this guy is going to get rewarded for acting like a brat. While the 3 people that left before him without incident, will not.

    This is a bad message to send to society.

    I agree totally. I hate seeing squeaky wheels get oiled.

    If I got bumped off a flight, I would just think “oh, that sucks” and go hit the airport bar. That’s because I’m a grownup.

    It would never in a million years occur to me to just say “no, I’m not going” like a spoiled, entitled, self-centered, bratty, petulant two-year-old.

    This guy is not a sympathetic victim. Maybe getting bashed in the head will have knocked some much-needed sense into him.

    He owes the airline and other passengers an apology. He should say “sorry I acted like a jerk and necessitated you calling security to physically remove me from the plane.”

    We put up with so much nonsense anymore. You get more of what you tolerate and reward and encourage.

    Read More
    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
    Yes, and when we tolerate the airlines overbooking every flight they can, having zero intention of ensuring seats for paying customers who were promised a seat, and give seats to their employees over customers, then we get more of that unethical, rude, and presumptuous behavior by the airlines.
    , @mobi

    He owes the airline and other passengers an apology. He should say “sorry I acted like a jerk and necessitated you calling security to physically remove me from the plane.”
     
    Perhaps, but the fact that he's Asian secures his victimhood beyond reproach.

    Above even the brutality angle, he's got the narrative on his side.
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  34. @Twinkie

    The pilot business is operated like the acting business where pilots hope to land a gig at a major and earn a decent living but few ever do and those that don’t barely make a living. Regional carrier pilots sleep in the airline terminal or their cars because they can’t afford a motel room.
     
    I agree with the sentiment of this paragraph, but not the specifics. I have a friend who flies a regional jet for a United Express affiliate. While he isn't rich, he makes a decent, above average living for a no-name college grad, on par with a primary care doctor. But, yes, he is hoping to make his way up and, one day, fly a large jet for an international route that will lead to a decent six-figure income... on par with a specialist doctor.

    Far from sleeping in his car, he gets free rides to his origination airport from his hometown 1,300 miles away (he's on a few days and off a few days, so commutes from one city to his home base for the flights and then comes home to his family once he is off).

    Republic as a low rent operation refused to offer more than $800 to get a volunteer although they could have gone much higher. $800 is close to what they pay a pilot in a month. Cheaper to call the cops.
     
    I quoted in another thread that United's average bumping compensation is measly $500+ (third lowest in the business) while Alaska and JetBlue are on average $1600+ and $1200+ respectively.

    Chicago cops
     
    Lack of training and/or poor judgment, period. This my lengthy comment in the other thread.

    why is United getting the grief
     
    Because, essentially, United's affiliated business instigated the whole incident when it could have been handled much, much better.

    Speaking of being in no position, David Dao, the victim, has a “troubled past” as a pill doctor.
     
    In this particular episode, it doesn't matter what the man's past was. I assign a part of the blame to him for his own refusal to deplane voluntarily (again, as I stated elsewhere, comply, but indicate under duress, then work out a remedy later in a civil setting) contributing to this fiasco. But he didn't deserve to get his face bashed against an armrest, then dragged on the floor of a plane for his obstinacy.

    Sort of ironic that the Chinaman is now getting whites addicted to opium instead of vice versa – cosmic revenge I guess.
     
    That was the British. So it's not cosmic or a revenge at all.

    So there are no heroes here, just a sordid rogue’s gallery of marginal players trying to scratch out a living in the sad twilight of the American empire, but streamed live and in color on your Korean cell phone.
     
    This should be the masthead for this blog.

    On the other hand, things are rarely as bad as they seem (or as great as they seem when things go well). America is not preordained to doom. There are many contingencies that can lead to a glorious renewal.

    Indeed, there are stories with heroes in them (some even involving air travel), but then they make things go well and we never hear about those stories. Don't forget the selection bias of the media business in general. All bad news.

    I know a guy from my hometown who grew up dreaming to be a pilot. His dad had a plane, he got lots of training as a kid. Smart guy, could think on his feet, fearless but not stupid, he was good. Went into the Navy, became a fighter pilot. Got out, went to work for Northwest. Worked ‘weights and balances’ for years hoping to move up. Never did, bagged it, now he’s working in real estate. What do I know but that industry looks pretty tough. I think the parallel w higher education is a good one, so you think you are going to get that teaching gig w your PhD? Where? Berkeley or East Texas in Commerce?

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  35. Barnard says:
    @JW Bell
    Bureau of Labor Statistics - "...airline pilots begin their careers earning about $20,000 per year. The average captain at a regional airline earns about $55,000 per year, "

    How do they get anyone to fly planes for $20k a year? You can make more at any number of menial jobs with a fraction of the stress level.

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    • Replies: @The Man From K Street

    How do they get anyone to fly planes for $20k a year? You can make more at any number of menial jobs with a fraction of the stress level
     
    Because it isn't that stressful. Layfolk underestimate the amount of flying actually performed by automatic pilot. It's why, after Amazon destroys what remains of the retail paradigm in the 2020s with same-hour drone delivery, commercial passenger drones will be next.

    Layfolk also overestimate the number of commercial pilots fed into the system by the military. Nowadays most new pilots come out of glorified "trucking academies". The biggest consumers of new pilot talent, Chinese airlines, will put you behind the stick of a multi-engined Boeing with paying passengers on day one even if all your training has been in a simulator.

    For every cool-headed ex-military problem-solver like Captain Sullenberger, there are 5 journeymen who don't even remember the basics of aerodynamics and flight controls, like that guy who augered Air France 447 into the South Atlantic because he couldn't figure out what causes an aircraft to stall once the damn autopilot gets shut off.
    , @Bill
    Uh, the same way they get women to queue up to be screwed by an endless sequence of Hollywood sleazeballs on their way to a life of waiting tables and worrying whether they have enough money to feed their cats. Did you know the women who skate in the Ice Capades make basically minimum wage? Dancers who don't quite make it? Have you been around youth sports in the US at all? Stupid people are stupid. Even some smart people are stupid. You can get them to believe that being an actress or a pilot or an athlete is glamorous by only showing them success.

    But, you know, follow your dreams. It may not be in your own interest, but it sure is in someone's interest. Sort of like opiods that way.
    , @Lurker
    Most (all?) pilots like flying!

    The over supply of qualified pilots is not some temporary glitch while they all fight for the top spots. Many of them would be happy to just make a living and get to fly.
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  36. slumber_j says:
    @The Anti-Gnostic

    Bureau of Labor Statistics – “…airline pilots begin their careers earning about $20,000 per year. The average captain at a regional airline earns about $55,000 per year, “
     
    I would really like the person with my life in his hands at 30,000 feet to be making more money than that.

    Right, for the same reason that discount sushi isn’t a good deal. I’ll pay full price, thank you very much–or just eat something else.

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  37. @Nope
    So this airline, Republic, only pays pilots $800 a month, and they sleep in their cars? That doesn't seem believable. Am I missing something? Also, the NYT editorial about this that Steve posted the other day said the passenger, a doctor, was some kind of poor person who the company wouldn't listen to. Has there been a huge shift recently in the incomes of previously high earning professionals like doctors and airline pilots?

    A buddy of mine pilots for one of those regional airlines out of Hartsfield. He makes about 27k per year. According to him, the worst thing isn’t the pay, although it’s pretty bad. It’s the uneven schedule. If a flight comes up needing a pilot, you’d better take it, otherwise you might not get a chance next time.

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  38. Flip says:

    I put most of the blame on the passenger. When the Chicago police tell you to get off the plane, you get off the plane. Most people I know would have voluntarily complied.

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    • Replies: @Federalist
    Yes, most people would have complied. What would I have done? Complied and got off the plane. But I don't take any pride in that. I wish I could say that I would do something noble and heroic but I don't know what that would be even assuming that I was brave enough to do it. Practically speaking, there is not much you can really do that would have any kind of a desirable result.

    I just don't see why so many commenters here think that there is some great honor in obeying thuggish cops or minor functionaries of a corporation that is screwing you. We tend to see through all of the SJW, multi-culti, PC stuff but buy all of the crap that it's O.K. to get screwed by big corporations like the airlines because they only throw people off of flights every once in a while and only when it's really, really important for their employees to get to the next airport.
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  39. ussr andy says:
    @utu
    "When are people gonna learn to do what the cops say and to sort it out later?"

    When Americans will learn to have higher expectations for cops behavior? You, probably never.

    When Americans will learn to have higher expectations for cops behavior?

    so long as 80-90% of this stuff happens to the right kind of people, people who matter, everyone else is gonna put up with this and ask for more of it. America is too big.

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  40. Haven’t you guys ever listened to the pre-flight announcement. “It is unlawful to not comply with the orders of crew members”. If an attendant says get out of the plane and you don’t you are breaking a federal law.

    Also as a matter of contract the ticket agreement says you may be bumped. Terms of the ticket are highly regulated. I understand that there is regulatory capture, but saying you don’t have to abide by a contract you voluntarily entered into because the industry lobbied for terms it likes is similar to saying an employer does not have to obey minimum wage laws because unions got minimum wages passed in the first place.

    No bumping means airlines will be flying empty seats around which the remaining passengers will be paying for. Or they could just make all tickets non-refundable and non-transferable, so if a traffic accident prevents you from making your flight to Hong Kong, you are out $3,000.

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  41. Anonym says:
    @Anonymous
    People don't realize how poorly paid most pilots are. There are more pilots than there are jobs, so the competition for spots at the major airlines is intense. But enough pilots are willing to work for the regional carriers --keeping the dream alive that they will someday land a good job-- that the industry can get away with paying them next to nothing.

    You see an almost perfect parallel in higher education. People spend the best years of their lives making 15k a year as grad-student teaching assistants (or even less as adjuncts), hoping that a college will hire them for a real job someday.

    http://100rsns.blogspot.com/2014/10/94-it-warps-your-expectations.html

    How many industries work this way?

    In LA, every waitress is a struggling actress.

    Blogging is another such activity.

    You would think our host would be content with being perhaps the only professional blogger in the world, but living in LA even he has dabbled in the entertainment industry, right?

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    • Replies: @Bill Jones
    I was shacked up with one in NYC who described herself as an "AMW"

    Actress, Model, Waitress.
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  42. Wilkey says:

    Republic as a low rent operation refused to offer more than $800 to get a volunteer although they could have gone much higher. $800 is close to what they pay a pilot in a month. Cheaper to call the cops.

    Yes. Which dumbass at corporate HQ decided that $800 was the highest they were willing to go before forcibly bumping a passenger – and doing so for company employees? The PR blowback in the age of Twitter and smartphones was obviously going to be enormous. OTOH, we also live in an oligopolistic era, so by necessity customers will be forced to conveniently forget about this episode the next time they buy a ticket. Kinda hard to punish them when they’re the only airline flying certain routes, unless you’d prefer driving five hours to your destination.

    And the people who dragged the guy off the plane were not employees of either, but Chicago cops.

    But the PR blowback for blaming the Chicago PD – cops whose dedicated beat is probably the airport – isn’t any better. If you point the finger at them what happens the next time you need to call these guys? Better to stand by the cops and take the blame on yourself, however bad it gets.

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  43. J1234 says:
    @Anonymous
    People don't realize how poorly paid most pilots are. There are more pilots than there are jobs, so the competition for spots at the major airlines is intense. But enough pilots are willing to work for the regional carriers --keeping the dream alive that they will someday land a good job-- that the industry can get away with paying them next to nothing.

    You see an almost perfect parallel in higher education. People spend the best years of their lives making 15k a year as grad-student teaching assistants (or even less as adjuncts), hoping that a college will hire them for a real job someday.

    http://100rsns.blogspot.com/2014/10/94-it-warps-your-expectations.html

    How many industries work this way?

    There are more pilots than there are jobs, so the competition for spots at the major airlines is intense. But enough pilots are willing to work for the regional carriers –keeping the dream alive that they will someday land a good job– that the industry can get away with paying them next to nothing…How many industries work this way?

    Also sounds like architects and (believe it or not) lawyers.

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  44. @Please Correct the Record
    It's looking like there are two Drs. David Dao. The one who was disaccommodated is not the one with the checkered past.

    https://twitter.com/_ClaireConnelly/status/852036052286033921

    I have no corroboration how many Drs. Dao are involved. But from how Mr. Trump gets covered in the press, I don’t know whether anything can be believed, either.

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  45. Dr. X says:
    @Nope
    So this airline, Republic, only pays pilots $800 a month, and they sleep in their cars? That doesn't seem believable. Am I missing something? Also, the NYT editorial about this that Steve posted the other day said the passenger, a doctor, was some kind of poor person who the company wouldn't listen to. Has there been a huge shift recently in the incomes of previously high earning professionals like doctors and airline pilots?

    So this airline, Republic, only pays pilots $800 a month, and they sleep in their cars? That doesn’t seem believable. Am I missing something?

    Yep. When the Continental/Colgan Air commuter flight crashed in Buffalo in 2009, it was revealed that the pilots were pretty much making Wal-Mart money, especially the 23-year old girl co-pilot, who was making something like $16,000.

    The captain was slightly better paid, but had minimal experience and literally didn’t know how to fly the airplane. When it aerodynamically stalled, he pulled back on the yoke rather than pushing it forward. R.I.P., 50 people.

    That’ll pucker you right up next time you book a flight…

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    • Replies: @Nope
    That's crazy. I had no idea they were so poorly paid.
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  46. Wilkey says:

    Yeah, but in the case of minor league athletics I suspect the player-employees become pretty aware of their prospects pretty quickly. And if they don’t, the ball club makes them aware: it’s in nobody’s interest to have inadequate talent clogging up the system, so minor-league baseball e.g. is an extremely up-or-out proposition.

    A major difference being that for many athletes there were no other great career prospects outside of sports. Would-be pilots and professors (other than liberal arts professors) usually had a lot of other good career options available to them.

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  47. @Ed
    It really disturbs me that this guy is going to get rewarded for acting like a brat. While the 3 people that left before him without incident, will not.

    This is a bad message to send to society.

    Sur cette compagnie aérienne, il est bon de sangloter un médecin de temps en temps, pour encourager les autres.

    (On this airline, it is good to bloody a doctor from time to time, to encourage the others.)

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  48. anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    Am counting the hours ’till this story reaches the end of the news cycle.

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  49. @Anonymous
    People don't realize how poorly paid most pilots are. There are more pilots than there are jobs, so the competition for spots at the major airlines is intense. But enough pilots are willing to work for the regional carriers --keeping the dream alive that they will someday land a good job-- that the industry can get away with paying them next to nothing.

    You see an almost perfect parallel in higher education. People spend the best years of their lives making 15k a year as grad-student teaching assistants (or even less as adjuncts), hoping that a college will hire them for a real job someday.

    http://100rsns.blogspot.com/2014/10/94-it-warps-your-expectations.html

    How many industries work this way?

    Biomedical research runs on this model

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  50. Jack D says:
    @Dieter Kief
    Two things - the 800 dollar payment for pilots. And then the end:

    ... a sordid rogue’s gallery of marginal players trying to scratch out a living in the sad twilight of the American empire, but streamed live and in color on your Korean cell phone.
     
    Plus the chinese "doctor" turning westerners into addicts.

    And the chinese version of this story: Racist Americans.

    And the fact, that they could have gone higher than 800 dollars quite easily -

    - but that this might somewhat have collided with the 800 dollar payment for the pilots.

    - - - That's all very interesting -

    Plus the fact, that Steve Sailer did notice how good it is and posted it seperately.

    All in all: iSteve is quite something.


    Very tiny question in the end: The 800 dollars, that's correct, isn't it?***

    *** would there be a link, showing that this is correct? Not that I would not trust Jack D. , but such a link might make the story even stronger.

    http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/passengers-continental-flight-3407-sleep-deprived-pilot-underpaid-co-pilot-article-1.372796

    Starting regional pilots get $23/hr but the clock only starts when the wheels leave the ground and ends when you touch down so the effective hourly pay is maybe 1/2 of that – you might only get paid for 15 or 20 hrs of flying/week even though this is your only job. So the man/woman (increasingly woman) with his/her life in your hands is making Wal-Mart cashier wages and probably has debt from pilot training as well.

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    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
    How can they get away with only paying them for actual flight time? What about the pre-flight inspection, pre-and-post-flight procedures, time spent in the airport going through security, et cetera. That's all part of the job - it seems like that ought to be on the clock.

    It sounds like more and more of the american economy runs on the Paper Clip model:

    The Great Lakes Paper Clip Company

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  51. @joeyjoejoe
    Nobody's going to remember it because its essentially irrelevant. Those regional carriers may not be United, but they are essentially controlled by United. None of those passengers bought a ticket on 'Republic' Airline. They bought it on United. If there were problems in the terminal, nobody goes to the 'Republic Airline' desk for help. They go to United. It is likely that their ticket said 'United Airline,' and they, of they cared at all, learned that it was 'Republic Airline' when they got on the plane.

    If you don't live at a major hub, you fly those regional airlines every single time you fly.

    Its irrelevant how much the pilots are paid. In fact, being bumped by an airline for a low-paid peon makes the whole situation worse; not better. Will my travel plans be cancelled next time because a cleaning lady for the airport bathroom is late for a Bat Mitzvah?

    Its irrelevant who called the cops: the point is that the cops were called.

    Its also less relevant that the cops misbehaved. The point is that the cops were called.

    Its also irrelevant that the doctor was a pill-pusher, or once cheated on his taxes, or was once caught picking his nose in public. The point is, he (like any of us could be) was treated the way he was.

    So the whole post is a collection of irrelevant facts. But, it had a witty final sentence, so I can see why you fell for it.

    joeyjoejoe

    Its also irrelevant that the doctor was a pill-pusher, or once cheated on his taxes, or was once caught picking his nose in public.

    It is relevant that he screamed like a little girl. I mean, c’mon, dude.

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  52. Paddy says:

    They were not Chicago cops, they were Chicago Department of Aviation police, who do not carry guns and are little more than security gaurds. A CPD officer would have asked for signed complaints for criminal trespass by the airline prior to putting hands on the passenger

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  53. The fact he is Chinese is the icing on the SJW cake; mainly, it’s that people love to travel and don’t like how airlines treat people nowadays.

    That said, if he were white and wearing a red MAGA hat, “the internet” would be ridiculing him.

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  54. eD says:
    @joeyjoejoe
    Nobody's going to remember it because its essentially irrelevant. Those regional carriers may not be United, but they are essentially controlled by United. None of those passengers bought a ticket on 'Republic' Airline. They bought it on United. If there were problems in the terminal, nobody goes to the 'Republic Airline' desk for help. They go to United. It is likely that their ticket said 'United Airline,' and they, of they cared at all, learned that it was 'Republic Airline' when they got on the plane.

    If you don't live at a major hub, you fly those regional airlines every single time you fly.

    Its irrelevant how much the pilots are paid. In fact, being bumped by an airline for a low-paid peon makes the whole situation worse; not better. Will my travel plans be cancelled next time because a cleaning lady for the airport bathroom is late for a Bat Mitzvah?

    Its irrelevant who called the cops: the point is that the cops were called.

    Its also less relevant that the cops misbehaved. The point is that the cops were called.

    Its also irrelevant that the doctor was a pill-pusher, or once cheated on his taxes, or was once caught picking his nose in public. The point is, he (like any of us could be) was treated the way he was.

    So the whole post is a collection of irrelevant facts. But, it had a witty final sentence, so I can see why you fell for it.

    joeyjoejoe

    The “agree” thing doesn’t seem to work if you are not tweeting, but joeyjoejoe makes excellent points.

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  55. @Anonymous
    People don't realize how poorly paid most pilots are. There are more pilots than there are jobs, so the competition for spots at the major airlines is intense. But enough pilots are willing to work for the regional carriers --keeping the dream alive that they will someday land a good job-- that the industry can get away with paying them next to nothing.

    You see an almost perfect parallel in higher education. People spend the best years of their lives making 15k a year as grad-student teaching assistants (or even less as adjuncts), hoping that a college will hire them for a real job someday.

    http://100rsns.blogspot.com/2014/10/94-it-warps-your-expectations.html

    How many industries work this way?

    Journalism.

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  56. peterike says:

    These sorts of stories really bring out the “muh Liberty!” types. Well listen dudes, your liberty has been gone for a long, long time. Get used to it. In this debased age, frankly I find it refreshing that an entitled, drama queen immigrant gets knocked around a little when he disrespects authority (would he do that in China? fat chance). Show some respect for the culture you’ve decided to invade, buddy boy.

    The problems begin now when he’ll make bank on the fact that he was a jerk, and social media warriors have yet another Outrage Du Jour festival, further deepening their sanctimonious self-regard, and ginning them up more for the next “outrage.” Indeed, outrage is an emotion that feeds on itself. It doesn’t burn out, it burns hotter every time.

    And this is not even mentioning how this is going to set up the next inconvenienced Asian invader to pull the same stunt. Just you wait.

    Yeah, the airline’s behavior wasn’t smart, but the fact that vast numbers of people are siding with the Chinaman is much, much worse.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    This situation was handled so poorly. I haven't bought an airline ticket in awhile, but do airlines make their overbooking policies very clear to customers? If not, below are some (pretty obvious) suggestions.

    1. Airlines should be more up front with their overbooking policies. At the time of ticket purchase, airlines should require customers to agree to their policy for dealing with overbooked flights. This policy needs to be clearly stated, in no uncertain terms, as to what agreement with the policy actually entails. Airlines should not bury this policy in small print in a long agreement of terms that customers will not see when making a ticket purchase.

    2. Airlines need clearer protocols for dealing with passengers who refuse to abide by overbooking policies. This must also be clearly stated in customer agreement mentioned above.

    3. These policies should be clearly posted and reinforced in airline terminals.

    4. Airlines should perhaps rethink their policies of overbooking flights.
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  57. Jack D says:
    @Auntie Analogue
    Last I heard, the cops were not Chicago cops. They were employees of a private security firm.

    I consider this incident just more evidence of the power of private enterprises (in this instance, United, its Republic feeder-liner contractor, and the private security goon firm) ratcheting up their power over all of us - a parallel to which is the constantly ratcheting-up power of tech firms, such as local internet provider monopolies and communications firms in surveillance bed with the equally evermore intrusive and exploitive federal Government behemoth. Ever heard of the New Feudalism?

    Half right – they were not Chicago PD but they were unionized employees of the Chicago Dept. of Aviation security, which is part of the city government of Chicago . A lot of govt. agencies have their own cops separate from the main police force – NYC has Transit Police in the subway, Housing Police in the projects, etc. Then universities, etc. have their own armed and sworn officer police forces (in addition to private security guards).

    https://chicago.taleo.net/careersection/100/jobdetail.ftl?job=99860&lang=en

    In a society that is increasingly paramilitarized and deindustrialized, these jobs are a growth area.

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    • Replies: @slumber_j

    NYC has Transit Police in the subway, Housing Police in the projects, etc.
     
    Although a friend of mine started his career with the NYC Transit cops, this hasn't been true since 1995, when Mayor Giuliani rolled those separate forces into the NYPD...22 years ago, incredibly.
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  58. @Twinkie

    The pilot business is operated like the acting business where pilots hope to land a gig at a major and earn a decent living but few ever do and those that don’t barely make a living. Regional carrier pilots sleep in the airline terminal or their cars because they can’t afford a motel room.
     
    I agree with the sentiment of this paragraph, but not the specifics. I have a friend who flies a regional jet for a United Express affiliate. While he isn't rich, he makes a decent, above average living for a no-name college grad, on par with a primary care doctor. But, yes, he is hoping to make his way up and, one day, fly a large jet for an international route that will lead to a decent six-figure income... on par with a specialist doctor.

    Far from sleeping in his car, he gets free rides to his origination airport from his hometown 1,300 miles away (he's on a few days and off a few days, so commutes from one city to his home base for the flights and then comes home to his family once he is off).

    Republic as a low rent operation refused to offer more than $800 to get a volunteer although they could have gone much higher. $800 is close to what they pay a pilot in a month. Cheaper to call the cops.
     
    I quoted in another thread that United's average bumping compensation is measly $500+ (third lowest in the business) while Alaska and JetBlue are on average $1600+ and $1200+ respectively.

    Chicago cops
     
    Lack of training and/or poor judgment, period. This my lengthy comment in the other thread.

    why is United getting the grief
     
    Because, essentially, United's affiliated business instigated the whole incident when it could have been handled much, much better.

    Speaking of being in no position, David Dao, the victim, has a “troubled past” as a pill doctor.
     
    In this particular episode, it doesn't matter what the man's past was. I assign a part of the blame to him for his own refusal to deplane voluntarily (again, as I stated elsewhere, comply, but indicate under duress, then work out a remedy later in a civil setting) contributing to this fiasco. But he didn't deserve to get his face bashed against an armrest, then dragged on the floor of a plane for his obstinacy.

    Sort of ironic that the Chinaman is now getting whites addicted to opium instead of vice versa – cosmic revenge I guess.
     
    That was the British. So it's not cosmic or a revenge at all.

    So there are no heroes here, just a sordid rogue’s gallery of marginal players trying to scratch out a living in the sad twilight of the American empire, but streamed live and in color on your Korean cell phone.
     
    This should be the masthead for this blog.

    On the other hand, things are rarely as bad as they seem (or as great as they seem when things go well). America is not preordained to doom. There are many contingencies that can lead to a glorious renewal.

    Indeed, there are stories with heroes in them (some even involving air travel), but then they make things go well and we never hear about those stories. Don't forget the selection bias of the media business in general. All bad news.

    Sort of ironic that the Chinaman is now getting whites addicted to opium instead of vice versa – cosmic revenge I guess.

    That was the British. So it’s not cosmic or a revenge at all.

    Yeah, but don’t you get it, Twinkie? As a white person, you’re guilty of all the crimes all white people have committed throughout history.

    This is why you’re guilty of the crimes of the Third Reich even if your father or grandfather fought under Patton.

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    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    For what it is worth, at least when I grew up, the Chinese pretty clearly distinguish the British as guilty and not "whites." I was taught that while various European nations did indeed divide up China, the British were the most guilty and the Germans the most innocuous. In a fairly recent visit to China, the government-run museums seems to carry a similar line.
    , @wren
    All this time I assumed Twinkie was Asian.
    , @Moshe
    I think Twinkie is yellow
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  59. @Please Correct the Record
    It's looking like there are two Drs. David Dao. The one who was disaccommodated is not the one with the checkered past.

    https://twitter.com/_ClaireConnelly/status/852036052286033921

    Couldn’t happen to better folk.

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  60. snorlax says:
    @Please Correct the Record
    It's looking like there are two Drs. David Dao. The one who was disaccommodated is not the one with the checkered past.

    https://twitter.com/_ClaireConnelly/status/852036052286033921

    Fake; plane Dao is pill Dao.

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  61. eD says:

    Its worth reading Yves Smith at Naked Capitalism in conjunction with the two United Airlines incidents threads here. I’m posting this comment in the later of the two threads so that it gets buried by the half dozen Steve Sailer posts a little later.

    The Naked Capitalism thread corrects some of the comments being made here, but the important one is that United’s actions were in fact in pretty clear violation of FAA regulations:

    http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2017/04/united-passenger-removal-reporting-management-fail.html

    Scroll down to the second point or do a “Cntrl F” on “regulation” to get to this. Basically FAA regulations do allow airplanes to “bump” paying passengers with confirmed seats, but not to give a flight to their own employees.

    Further down there is some commentary on who the “police” were and why one of them wound up working at the airport at this point in his career.

    Read More
    • Replies: @res
    Thanks for that link.
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  62. @Anonymous
    People don't realize how poorly paid most pilots are. There are more pilots than there are jobs, so the competition for spots at the major airlines is intense. But enough pilots are willing to work for the regional carriers --keeping the dream alive that they will someday land a good job-- that the industry can get away with paying them next to nothing.

    You see an almost perfect parallel in higher education. People spend the best years of their lives making 15k a year as grad-student teaching assistants (or even less as adjuncts), hoping that a college will hire them for a real job someday.

    http://100rsns.blogspot.com/2014/10/94-it-warps-your-expectations.html

    How many industries work this way?

    The entire structure of wage/salary employment works this way on a meta level

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  63. Mr. Anon says:
    @Jack D
    http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/passengers-continental-flight-3407-sleep-deprived-pilot-underpaid-co-pilot-article-1.372796

    Starting regional pilots get $23/hr but the clock only starts when the wheels leave the ground and ends when you touch down so the effective hourly pay is maybe 1/2 of that - you might only get paid for 15 or 20 hrs of flying/week even though this is your only job. So the man/woman (increasingly woman) with his/her life in your hands is making Wal-Mart cashier wages and probably has debt from pilot training as well.

    How can they get away with only paying them for actual flight time? What about the pre-flight inspection, pre-and-post-flight procedures, time spent in the airport going through security, et cetera. That’s all part of the job – it seems like that ought to be on the clock.

    It sounds like more and more of the american economy runs on the Paper Clip model:

    The Great Lakes Paper Clip Company

    Read More
    • Replies: @Nico
    Yup, the illusion of prosperity is kept alive by credit cards and a consumerist culture that encourages keeping up appearances. Otherwise the U.S. would now resemble 1950s Argentina.
    , @Jack D
    It's all in their union contract , though I think as a matter of Federal law they would have to average out to at least the minimum wage if you included the other hours.

    The flip side of this (the thing that makes people willing to put up with this) is that if you are a senior captain flying a 747 for a major airline you get paid very well. What has happened is that the older generation of pilots have sold out the next generation.

    http://onemileatatime.boardingarea.com/2016/03/09/airline-pilot-pay/

    So there's just this huge disparity between a starting pilot flying a turboprop puddle jumper and the older guy flying the big jet for the main line carrier. But with our hub and spoke system, if you want to fly from say Buffalo to Louisville, you THINK that you are buying a ticket on a major carrier but for most or all of your flight legs you are going to be on a regional jet with the cheap kind of pilot AND you get to change planes 2 or 3 times.
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  64. eD says:
    @Please Correct the Record
    It's looking like there are two Drs. David Dao. The one who was disaccommodated is not the one with the checkered past.

    https://twitter.com/_ClaireConnelly/status/852036052286033921

    If Dao’s lawyers can trace alot of these negative commentson Dao and his medical practice to United’s PR flacks, they might as well throw in a defamation lawsuit too.

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  65. @Please Correct the Record
    It's looking like there are two Drs. David Dao. The one who was disaccommodated is not the one with the checkered past.

    https://twitter.com/_ClaireConnelly/status/852036052286033921

    Claire Connelly has already deleted the tweet that you posted. I am a day late on the story, so if there were any reports confusing the two doctors, I didn’t find them with a quick search.

    Connelly is an Australian journalist and seems to have trouble wrapping her head around the idea that in the US two people with the same name can each be licensed to practice medicine in different states.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wilkey
    Even if Dao was correctly identified, his personal history had no place being made public.

    Oh, so Joe the Plumber was a legitimate target but not a "doctor" who lost his medical license for ten years?

    Joe the Plumber was a white conservative, so digging up his private divorce records is a-ok. Dao is a racial minority, so his felony convictions are totally off limits.
    , @415 reasons
    Board complaints that get people's license to practice medicine taken away are generally public record. Fair or not its a fact of life for a doctor with a checkered past.
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  66. @Twinkie

    The pilot business is operated like the acting business where pilots hope to land a gig at a major and earn a decent living but few ever do and those that don’t barely make a living. Regional carrier pilots sleep in the airline terminal or their cars because they can’t afford a motel room.
     
    I agree with the sentiment of this paragraph, but not the specifics. I have a friend who flies a regional jet for a United Express affiliate. While he isn't rich, he makes a decent, above average living for a no-name college grad, on par with a primary care doctor. But, yes, he is hoping to make his way up and, one day, fly a large jet for an international route that will lead to a decent six-figure income... on par with a specialist doctor.

    Far from sleeping in his car, he gets free rides to his origination airport from his hometown 1,300 miles away (he's on a few days and off a few days, so commutes from one city to his home base for the flights and then comes home to his family once he is off).

    Republic as a low rent operation refused to offer more than $800 to get a volunteer although they could have gone much higher. $800 is close to what they pay a pilot in a month. Cheaper to call the cops.
     
    I quoted in another thread that United's average bumping compensation is measly $500+ (third lowest in the business) while Alaska and JetBlue are on average $1600+ and $1200+ respectively.

    Chicago cops
     
    Lack of training and/or poor judgment, period. This my lengthy comment in the other thread.

    why is United getting the grief
     
    Because, essentially, United's affiliated business instigated the whole incident when it could have been handled much, much better.

    Speaking of being in no position, David Dao, the victim, has a “troubled past” as a pill doctor.
     
    In this particular episode, it doesn't matter what the man's past was. I assign a part of the blame to him for his own refusal to deplane voluntarily (again, as I stated elsewhere, comply, but indicate under duress, then work out a remedy later in a civil setting) contributing to this fiasco. But he didn't deserve to get his face bashed against an armrest, then dragged on the floor of a plane for his obstinacy.

    Sort of ironic that the Chinaman is now getting whites addicted to opium instead of vice versa – cosmic revenge I guess.
     
    That was the British. So it's not cosmic or a revenge at all.

    So there are no heroes here, just a sordid rogue’s gallery of marginal players trying to scratch out a living in the sad twilight of the American empire, but streamed live and in color on your Korean cell phone.
     
    This should be the masthead for this blog.

    On the other hand, things are rarely as bad as they seem (or as great as they seem when things go well). America is not preordained to doom. There are many contingencies that can lead to a glorious renewal.

    Indeed, there are stories with heroes in them (some even involving air travel), but then they make things go well and we never hear about those stories. Don't forget the selection bias of the media business in general. All bad news.

    Wasn’t it the Jews that supplied the drugs,doing John Bulls dirty work.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jack D
    Yes, it was the Jooos what done it. All Jooos, nothing but Jooos. No Christian, certainly no American, would ever do such a thing.

    Jooos like FDR's grandpa. Roosevelt is a Jewish name after all. They must have changed it from Rosenfeld to confuse the goyim.


    http://www.ozy.com/flashback/the-drug-that-bankrolled-some-of-americas-great-dynasties/40555
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  67. Dumbo says:

    I can’t believe airline pilots make only $800 a month, with all the training that they have to go through. Haitian cab drivers in the airport probably make much more than that.

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  68. Mr. Anon says:

    The airline behaved reprehensibly (they usually do, have they replaced the phone and cable companies as the companies that people hate the most?). The airport cops probably did too. Still, when I actually saw the video, and heard that guy whine and screech like a mama-san, I lost any sympathy I might have had for him too. His highly checkered background doesn’t help his case either. One thing I was surprised to learn: that you can get a doctor’s license with a felony conviction.

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    • Replies: @Name Withheld
    I found it amazing that he got his Medical license back after the conviction. He also appears to have spent no time in jail. Contrast to this story: In 2002 I received a parking ticket in New Jersey that had 7 days to pay. I got lazy and did not pay it on time, one day later I received a letter demanding I pay it in 3 days, or the Court would issue an arrest warrant for me.
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  69. Wilkey says:
    @Auntie Analogue
    Last I heard, the cops were not Chicago cops. They were employees of a private security firm.

    I consider this incident just more evidence of the power of private enterprises (in this instance, United, its Republic feeder-liner contractor, and the private security goon firm) ratcheting up their power over all of us - a parallel to which is the constantly ratcheting-up power of tech firms, such as local internet provider monopolies and communications firms in surveillance bed with the equally evermore intrusive and exploitive federal Government behemoth. Ever heard of the New Feudalism?

    I consider this incident just more evidence of the power of private enterprises (in this instance, United, its Republic feeder-liner contractor, and the private security goon firm) ratcheting up their power over all of us

    Their power to remove you from their plane? Oh the nerve of them!

    We tend to think of flying as a right because we paid hundreds of dollars (or more) for a ticket in advance and if we can’t fly it may take us a long time to reach our destination. But ultimately it isn’t a right, and there may be times when the airlines, for whatever reason, can’t or won’t serve us.

    Read More
    • Replies: @27 year old
    >But ultimately it isn’t a right, and there may be times when the airlines, for whatever reason, can’t or won’t serve us.


    Yeah just like how a bakery can refuse to make a cake for a gay "wedding" and United Airlines stands with the bakery on that.
    , @Jack D
    That's right - as soon as you set foot in the airport, "for your safety" you have surrendered your rights as an American citizen and now you are more like someone who has been arrested and placed in the county jail. You are subjected to searches, you have to follow the arbitrary demands of those in charge, etc. Except in jail you get a free baloney sandwich and your cell is bigger.

    This is one of the corrosive effects of terrorism. "For our safety" we are stripped of our rights as citizens in more and more places.

    BTW, even in the 50 page long "contract of carriage" that no one ever reads and that you "agree" to even though you can't negotiate a word of it (look up "contract of adhesion") it talks about being "denied boarding" due to overbooking, etc. Nowhere does it say that they have the right to eject you from your seat once you are boarded just so they can put someone else in your seat. The guy became "disruptive" AFTER they asked him to leave, which they had no right to do in the 1st place.
    , @RadicalCenter
    Bullshit. It's not a privilege, it become a legal right when we buy the ticket.

    By the way, the airlines can either start paying for the full cost of airports (huge), which they don't now, or start treating their customers far more humanely and honestly, as in honoring their contracts and not demeaning or threatening or harming passengers who merely demand that their honor their contract.
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  70. slumber_j says:
    @Jack D
    Half right - they were not Chicago PD but they were unionized employees of the Chicago Dept. of Aviation security, which is part of the city government of Chicago . A lot of govt. agencies have their own cops separate from the main police force - NYC has Transit Police in the subway, Housing Police in the projects, etc. Then universities, etc. have their own armed and sworn officer police forces (in addition to private security guards).

    https://chicago.taleo.net/careersection/100/jobdetail.ftl?job=99860&lang=en

    In a society that is increasingly paramilitarized and deindustrialized, these jobs are a growth area.

    NYC has Transit Police in the subway, Housing Police in the projects, etc.

    Although a friend of mine started his career with the NYC Transit cops, this hasn’t been true since 1995, when Mayor Giuliani rolled those separate forces into the NYPD…22 years ago, incredibly.

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  71. @Rod1963
    Yep that's the point, it could happen to any of us. And it should worry people that the cops fucked up a old man without hesitation.

    This is right out of a police state. But no one see's it because it happened to some sleazy Asian old dude and that makes it's okay.Usually when it happens to whites, it doesn't even make the news at all or at best you get a generic blurb in some local paper.

    The fact that you have no rights once you board that aircraft is scary as hell, best reason not to fly them. Oh yeah the abuse we get from the TSA tops it. They even humiliate cripples, the sick and children. and you folks take that shit like a bunch of eloi and betas.

    The fact that the po po can take you out and make you look like a interrogation victim in short order should make you think twice about supporting this crap and the cops. Who BTW aren't your friend and will turn on you if ordered to. Remember Boston where Boston SWAT was throwing people out of their houses at gunpoint? Bet you folks who think sending a old man to the hospital approved of this stuff.

    >you folks take that shit like a bunch of eloi and betas

    Yawn. Tell us all about the alpha male violent resistance you’ve done

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    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
    Sounded like Rod was saying that he avoids flying due to the abuse by police, TSA, and airline bullies.
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  72. With re to the police: These were not CPD officers,they were Aviation Security. Probably a lot of political hires and diversity.

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  73. @Wilkey
    I consider this incident just more evidence of the power of private enterprises (in this instance, United, its Republic feeder-liner contractor, and the private security goon firm) ratcheting up their power over all of us

    Their power to remove you from their plane? Oh the nerve of them!

    We tend to think of flying as a right because we paid hundreds of dollars (or more) for a ticket in advance and if we can't fly it may take us a long time to reach our destination. But ultimately it isn't a right, and there may be times when the airlines, for whatever reason, can't or won't serve us.

    >But ultimately it isn’t a right, and there may be times when the airlines, for whatever reason, can’t or won’t serve us.

    Yeah just like how a bakery can refuse to make a cake for a gay “wedding” and United Airlines stands with the bakery on that.

    Read More
    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
    Nice!
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  74. @Nope
    So this airline, Republic, only pays pilots $800 a month, and they sleep in their cars? That doesn't seem believable. Am I missing something? Also, the NYT editorial about this that Steve posted the other day said the passenger, a doctor, was some kind of poor person who the company wouldn't listen to. Has there been a huge shift recently in the incomes of previously high earning professionals like doctors and airline pilots?

    In 2010 FRONTLINE did an investigative report on the safety of regional airlines. From what I remember, beginning regional pilots were making $19,000 a year and working crazy hours – not getting enough sleep.

    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/flyingcheap/

    Dr. Dao probably does have financial problems, but there is no way airline employees would have known that. Dr. David Dao’s medical license was revoked for ten years and during that time at least four of his five children went through medical school. Among other things, Dr. Dao was found to have had sex with a male patient in exchange for supplying the guy with OxyContin and other drugs. Imagine the legal bills. Surely his problems didn’t help his wife’s medical practice flourish.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    I would have never imagined that airline pilots make so little money. I had always assumed it was a relatively good gig.
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  75. Wilkey says:
    @Triumph104
    Claire Connelly has already deleted the tweet that you posted. I am a day late on the story, so if there were any reports confusing the two doctors, I didn't find them with a quick search.

    Connelly is an Australian journalist and seems to have trouble wrapping her head around the idea that in the US two people with the same name can each be licensed to practice medicine in different states.

    https://twitter.com/_ClaireConnelly/status/852123296669814784

    Even if Dao was correctly identified, his personal history had no place being made public.

    Oh, so Joe the Plumber was a legitimate target but not a “doctor” who lost his medical license for ten years?

    Joe the Plumber was a white conservative, so digging up his private divorce records is a-ok. Dao is a racial minority, so his felony convictions are totally off limits.

    Read More
    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
    Good point about Joe the Plumber, Wilkey. Neither Joe nor Dao should have been treated the way they were. It's not an either-or proposition.
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  76. @Nope
    So this airline, Republic, only pays pilots $800 a month, and they sleep in their cars? That doesn't seem believable. Am I missing something? Also, the NYT editorial about this that Steve posted the other day said the passenger, a doctor, was some kind of poor person who the company wouldn't listen to. Has there been a huge shift recently in the incomes of previously high earning professionals like doctors and airline pilots?

    https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/airline-pilot-salary-SRCH_KO0,13.htm

    $800 may be an exaggeration, but $31,000 per year won’t pay for motel stays, so the narrative seems more credible that I first assumed.

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  77. Jack D says:
    @Wilkey
    I consider this incident just more evidence of the power of private enterprises (in this instance, United, its Republic feeder-liner contractor, and the private security goon firm) ratcheting up their power over all of us

    Their power to remove you from their plane? Oh the nerve of them!

    We tend to think of flying as a right because we paid hundreds of dollars (or more) for a ticket in advance and if we can't fly it may take us a long time to reach our destination. But ultimately it isn't a right, and there may be times when the airlines, for whatever reason, can't or won't serve us.

    That’s right – as soon as you set foot in the airport, “for your safety” you have surrendered your rights as an American citizen and now you are more like someone who has been arrested and placed in the county jail. You are subjected to searches, you have to follow the arbitrary demands of those in charge, etc. Except in jail you get a free baloney sandwich and your cell is bigger.

    This is one of the corrosive effects of terrorism. “For our safety” we are stripped of our rights as citizens in more and more places.

    BTW, even in the 50 page long “contract of carriage” that no one ever reads and that you “agree” to even though you can’t negotiate a word of it (look up “contract of adhesion”) it talks about being “denied boarding” due to overbooking, etc. Nowhere does it say that they have the right to eject you from your seat once you are boarded just so they can put someone else in your seat. The guy became “disruptive” AFTER they asked him to leave, which they had no right to do in the 1st place.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Moshe
    Yes.
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  78. Jack D says:
    @Father O'Hara
    Wasn't it the Jews that supplied the drugs,doing John Bulls dirty work.

    Yes, it was the Jooos what done it. All Jooos, nothing but Jooos. No Christian, certainly no American, would ever do such a thing.

    Jooos like FDR’s grandpa. Roosevelt is a Jewish name after all. They must have changed it from Rosenfeld to confuse the goyim.

    http://www.ozy.com/flashback/the-drug-that-bankrolled-some-of-americas-great-dynasties/40555

    Read More
    • Replies: @Father O'Hara
    As I understand it,an Iranian joo,er,Jew named Sassoon was the driving force behind getting opium into the hands of those eager Chinese. (What with being coolies all day,you can't blame them for looking for a little fun.)
    Sassoon was the son of the top Jew in Iran,sort of the Jared Kushner of his day. When the government fell,Sassoon left for greener pastures. The Crown was looking to trade with China,but not with gold. Sassoon offered them a different currency.
    Victoria,who once asserted re female homosexuality,"women don't do that sort of thing",seemed to feel that getting a whole bunch of Chinese hooked on dope WAS doable,and the coolies could be enticed to do THAT thing.
    "Why do you think they call it dope?",she purportedly asked.
    Sassoon set up the opium business,leaving his other imports(like cotton) behind.Many other jewish families joined in. The power of the British navy protected the trade. Sassoons slogan,"Just Dont Say No",became ubiquitous among the poor.
    This would make a good movie,with Leo perhaps as Sassoon?
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  79. Nico says:
    @Mr. Anon
    How can they get away with only paying them for actual flight time? What about the pre-flight inspection, pre-and-post-flight procedures, time spent in the airport going through security, et cetera. That's all part of the job - it seems like that ought to be on the clock.

    It sounds like more and more of the american economy runs on the Paper Clip model:

    The Great Lakes Paper Clip Company

    Yup, the illusion of prosperity is kept alive by credit cards and a consumerist culture that encourages keeping up appearances. Otherwise the U.S. would now resemble 1950s Argentina.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Flip
    I think we will resemble 1980s Argentina soon enough. Don't put your wealth in long term bonds.
    , @Art Deco
    Yup, the illusion of prosperity is kept alive by credit cards and a consumerist culture that encourages keeping up appearances. Otherwise the U.S. would now resemble 1950s Argentina.

    Per capita product in Argentina in 1955 was about 1/6th that of the United States today, so, no. Of all the troubles that might beset the American economy in the next 15 years, triple-digit inflation is about the least likely. Re the balance of payments, the current account deficit is currently running at an annual rate of -2.6% of gdp, so we could benefit from a rebalancing with less consumption and more savings. Cutting consumption by 3 or 4% isn't going to erase 85% of our productive capacity.
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  80. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Triumph104
    In 2010 FRONTLINE did an investigative report on the safety of regional airlines. From what I remember, beginning regional pilots were making $19,000 a year and working crazy hours - not getting enough sleep.

    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/flyingcheap/

    Dr. Dao probably does have financial problems, but there is no way airline employees would have known that. Dr. David Dao's medical license was revoked for ten years and during that time at least four of his five children went through medical school. Among other things, Dr. Dao was found to have had sex with a male patient in exchange for supplying the guy with OxyContin and other drugs. Imagine the legal bills. Surely his problems didn't help his wife's medical practice flourish.

    I would have never imagined that airline pilots make so little money. I had always assumed it was a relatively good gig.

    Read More
    • Replies: @OFWHAP
    A good friend's dad is or used to be a Delta pilot and made $350,000 per year while flying 4-5 times per month. I'm not sure when this was.
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  81. https://newrepublic.com/article/141970/matters-united-dragging-victim-Asian

    Asiatics trying to get oppression privilege drive me up the wall. Here is a brain dead journalist arguing whitey gets better treatment from cops and corporations than his identity group. Christ, at least blacks are American and do experience worse outcomes; importing crooked foreigners to play this game on us makes no sense whatsoever.

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  82. It is like the whole world is now a Mr. Sailer blog post. Dimes to donuts the non-preferred nomenclature Chinaman has some immigration hanky panky in his family somewhere. I bet that pill pushin’ doc even plays golf.

    This whole episode is disgusting on every imaginable level. A pox on ‘em all.

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  83. Shoo-Fly says:

    In 2008 the same type of heavy-handed authorities removed a doctor from a first-class plane seat without justification, in this case for “watching” closely as those authorities manhandled another passenger off of the plane. The resulting action (the doctor being a former US military physician), caused a similar brouhaha as the current United Airlines fiasco, and the doctor received from his seat received a substantial taxpayer sum in compensation.

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  84. Veracitor says:
    @Das
    The FAA regulation sets the amount that airlines are required to pay to passengers who are involuntarily bumped.

    It doesn't set any limit on what airlines can pay passengers who agree to be bumped voluntarily. That's not regulated, and is worked out between the airline and the passenger.

    They could have offered extra money to entice passengers to leave the plane voluntarily and avoid the scene. They decided to be cheap.

    Perhaps I misinterpreted this Federal regulation (14 CFR 250.5) (excerpt below, emphasis added):

    (a) Subject to the exceptions provided in § 250.6, a carrier to whom this part applies as described in § 250.2 shall pay compensation in interstate air transportation to passengers who are denied boarding involuntarily from an oversold flight as follows:

    (3) Compensation shall be 400% of the fare to the passenger’s destination or first stopover, with a maximum of $1,350, if the carrier does not offer alternate transportation that, at the time the arrangement is made, is planned to arrive at the airport of the passenger’s first stopover, or if none, the airport of the passenger’s final destination less than two hours after the planned arrival time of the passenger’s original flight.

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    • Replies: @Jack D
    While the $1,350 is the cap for INVOLUNTARY denial it tends to set a cap on voluntary offers - why should the airline offer you more $ if they can just involuntarily deny you? (Why except for the possibility of a BILLION $ worth of bad publicity?) Usually they pick someone weak looking as a victim (notice that 3 out of 4 went along meekly). You're standing at the gate and you can shout all you want but they're not letting you on the plane or paying you more $. Here's your $1,350 (or less - it's 4x the ticket price), take it or leave it. This happens thousands of times and a worldwide stink has never resulted until now.

    Notice BTW that the reg says "denial of boarding" - it doesn't contemplate that they can remove you after you are already boarded and minding your own business.

    The root of the f*ck up here is that they let these people board and then when the passenger just refused to get off (which I think is actually within his legal rights) they resorted to force. When the guy said that he wasn't leaving, they should have thought of a different move but the Stanford prison experiment mentality instantly kicked in so they didn't think of this as a normal customer service interaction anymore but as "disobedience" to be countered with force.
    , @Das
    Yes, that is what they are required to pay a customer who is involuntarily bumped from a flight. 4x the price of the ticket, capped at $1350.

    There's no regulation on what they pay customers to voluntarily give up their seat. They can pay whatever they want as long as the customer agrees to it.
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  85. The videos taken by multiple passengers show that the disaccommodated passenger was not wearing an undershirt. How common is this? What percentage of men do not wear an undershirt? Or maybe this passenger was following a simplification of the saying “Don’t wear dirty underwear while traveling; you might be in an accident and get taken to a hospital where your dirty underwear will be revealed.”

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    • Replies: @Father O'Hara
    Clark Gable laid waste to the undershirt industry when he removed his shirt only to expose his bare torso in that movie,where they stay in a motel room and put up a sheet between them. I want to say his co star was Claudia Colbert? No relation to the other Colbert,I hope.
    (It was 'It Happened One Night.' Big deal at the time.
    The 'umble t-shirt was rejected,facing partial redemption as a sweaty symbol of lust and rage a la Brando.
    It wasn't til the 60s that the t shirt rose to glory as a real shirt. Mere underwear no more!)
    Note:Speaking of the "sheet scene",when Ivanka and Jared had their honeymoon,putting up a sheet was not a barrier to love,but a conduit! The Jews have intercourse thru a hole in the sheet. Maybe the Gable/Colbert scene would be a turn on to Kushner. Was Gable an anti-semite?
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  86. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @peterike
    These sorts of stories really bring out the "muh Liberty!" types. Well listen dudes, your liberty has been gone for a long, long time. Get used to it. In this debased age, frankly I find it refreshing that an entitled, drama queen immigrant gets knocked around a little when he disrespects authority (would he do that in China? fat chance). Show some respect for the culture you've decided to invade, buddy boy.

    The problems begin now when he'll make bank on the fact that he was a jerk, and social media warriors have yet another Outrage Du Jour festival, further deepening their sanctimonious self-regard, and ginning them up more for the next "outrage." Indeed, outrage is an emotion that feeds on itself. It doesn't burn out, it burns hotter every time.

    And this is not even mentioning how this is going to set up the next inconvenienced Asian invader to pull the same stunt. Just you wait.

    Yeah, the airline's behavior wasn't smart, but the fact that vast numbers of people are siding with the Chinaman is much, much worse.

    This situation was handled so poorly. I haven’t bought an airline ticket in awhile, but do airlines make their overbooking policies very clear to customers? If not, below are some (pretty obvious) suggestions.

    1. Airlines should be more up front with their overbooking policies. At the time of ticket purchase, airlines should require customers to agree to their policy for dealing with overbooked flights. This policy needs to be clearly stated, in no uncertain terms, as to what agreement with the policy actually entails. Airlines should not bury this policy in small print in a long agreement of terms that customers will not see when making a ticket purchase.

    2. Airlines need clearer protocols for dealing with passengers who refuse to abide by overbooking policies. This must also be clearly stated in customer agreement mentioned above.

    3. These policies should be clearly posted and reinforced in airline terminals.

    4. Airlines should perhaps rethink their policies of overbooking flights.

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    • Replies: @Buck Turgidson
    5. Airlines should compensate passengers who are kicked off flights with an amount of compensation roughly equivalent to the often great inconvenience this causes them.

    These cheesy 'vouchers' are pathetic. How about some cash on the barrelhead and a decent hotel room.

    I believe that many customers feel that the airlines take them for granted. I expect for a lot of people, that their travel required considerable planning, arrangements to be away from the house and work, and plans on the other end based on assumption that the airlines will get them to their destination more-or-less when they said they would. Most fliers are not just flying around for the heck of it and with no schedules or responsibilities.

    For weather they of course compensate you nothing. OK fair enough, weather happens, how about a voucher for $100 of food and drink, or something, if it's more than 4-5 hours?

    Of course you have a flying public that wants a first class seat for $250, wants to wear flip flops and a t-shirt in that seat, talk on their stupid phone with some moron about the cat's toenail fungus until the flight attendant tells them for the 3rd time to turn off the damned phone, and blows their cork if they are delayed an hour. (the day cell phone conversations are allowed during the flight is the day I stop flying).

    The spoiled brat who got dragged off the plane will get rewarded. The adults who sucked it up and just got off will get nothing.

    No easy answers
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  87. Jack D says:
    @Mr. Anon
    How can they get away with only paying them for actual flight time? What about the pre-flight inspection, pre-and-post-flight procedures, time spent in the airport going through security, et cetera. That's all part of the job - it seems like that ought to be on the clock.

    It sounds like more and more of the american economy runs on the Paper Clip model:

    The Great Lakes Paper Clip Company

    It’s all in their union contract , though I think as a matter of Federal law they would have to average out to at least the minimum wage if you included the other hours.

    The flip side of this (the thing that makes people willing to put up with this) is that if you are a senior captain flying a 747 for a major airline you get paid very well. What has happened is that the older generation of pilots have sold out the next generation.

    http://onemileatatime.boardingarea.com/2016/03/09/airline-pilot-pay/

    So there’s just this huge disparity between a starting pilot flying a turboprop puddle jumper and the older guy flying the big jet for the main line carrier. But with our hub and spoke system, if you want to fly from say Buffalo to Louisville, you THINK that you are buying a ticket on a major carrier but for most or all of your flight legs you are going to be on a regional jet with the cheap kind of pilot AND you get to change planes 2 or 3 times.

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  88. @Twinkie

    The pilot business is operated like the acting business where pilots hope to land a gig at a major and earn a decent living but few ever do and those that don’t barely make a living. Regional carrier pilots sleep in the airline terminal or their cars because they can’t afford a motel room.
     
    I agree with the sentiment of this paragraph, but not the specifics. I have a friend who flies a regional jet for a United Express affiliate. While he isn't rich, he makes a decent, above average living for a no-name college grad, on par with a primary care doctor. But, yes, he is hoping to make his way up and, one day, fly a large jet for an international route that will lead to a decent six-figure income... on par with a specialist doctor.

    Far from sleeping in his car, he gets free rides to his origination airport from his hometown 1,300 miles away (he's on a few days and off a few days, so commutes from one city to his home base for the flights and then comes home to his family once he is off).

    Republic as a low rent operation refused to offer more than $800 to get a volunteer although they could have gone much higher. $800 is close to what they pay a pilot in a month. Cheaper to call the cops.
     
    I quoted in another thread that United's average bumping compensation is measly $500+ (third lowest in the business) while Alaska and JetBlue are on average $1600+ and $1200+ respectively.

    Chicago cops
     
    Lack of training and/or poor judgment, period. This my lengthy comment in the other thread.

    why is United getting the grief
     
    Because, essentially, United's affiliated business instigated the whole incident when it could have been handled much, much better.

    Speaking of being in no position, David Dao, the victim, has a “troubled past” as a pill doctor.
     
    In this particular episode, it doesn't matter what the man's past was. I assign a part of the blame to him for his own refusal to deplane voluntarily (again, as I stated elsewhere, comply, but indicate under duress, then work out a remedy later in a civil setting) contributing to this fiasco. But he didn't deserve to get his face bashed against an armrest, then dragged on the floor of a plane for his obstinacy.

    Sort of ironic that the Chinaman is now getting whites addicted to opium instead of vice versa – cosmic revenge I guess.
     
    That was the British. So it's not cosmic or a revenge at all.

    So there are no heroes here, just a sordid rogue’s gallery of marginal players trying to scratch out a living in the sad twilight of the American empire, but streamed live and in color on your Korean cell phone.
     
    This should be the masthead for this blog.

    On the other hand, things are rarely as bad as they seem (or as great as they seem when things go well). America is not preordained to doom. There are many contingencies that can lead to a glorious renewal.

    Indeed, there are stories with heroes in them (some even involving air travel), but then they make things go well and we never hear about those stories. Don't forget the selection bias of the media business in general. All bad news.

    If your friend doesn’t earn $100,000 per year, he definitely doesn’t earn what a primary care doctor does, not even in a small town. The guy who was at the bottom of his Med school class and barely passed his exams and now works at an urgent care clinic doing mostly very basic repetitive things, earns more than that.

    There are plenty of lawyers earning less than $100 k. Not so with medical doctors.

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  89. Jack D says:
    @Veracitor
    Perhaps I misinterpreted this Federal regulation (14 CFR 250.5) (excerpt below, emphasis added):

    (a) Subject to the exceptions provided in § 250.6, a carrier to whom this part applies as described in § 250.2 shall pay compensation in interstate air transportation to passengers who are denied boarding involuntarily from an oversold flight as follows:
     

    (3) Compensation shall be 400% of the fare to the passenger's destination or first stopover, with a maximum of $1,350, if the carrier does not offer alternate transportation that, at the time the arrangement is made, is planned to arrive at the airport of the passenger's first stopover, or if none, the airport of the passenger's final destination less than two hours after the planned arrival time of the passenger's original flight.
     

    While the $1,350 is the cap for INVOLUNTARY denial it tends to set a cap on voluntary offers – why should the airline offer you more $ if they can just involuntarily deny you? (Why except for the possibility of a BILLION $ worth of bad publicity?) Usually they pick someone weak looking as a victim (notice that 3 out of 4 went along meekly). You’re standing at the gate and you can shout all you want but they’re not letting you on the plane or paying you more $. Here’s your $1,350 (or less – it’s 4x the ticket price), take it or leave it. This happens thousands of times and a worldwide stink has never resulted until now.

    Notice BTW that the reg says “denial of boarding” – it doesn’t contemplate that they can remove you after you are already boarded and minding your own business.

    The root of the f*ck up here is that they let these people board and then when the passenger just refused to get off (which I think is actually within his legal rights) they resorted to force. When the guy said that he wasn’t leaving, they should have thought of a different move but the Stanford prison experiment mentality instantly kicked in so they didn’t think of this as a normal customer service interaction anymore but as “disobedience” to be countered with force.

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    • Agree: Bill Jones
    • Replies: @27 year old
    >the Stanford prison experiment mentality instantly kicked in so they didn’t think of this as a normal customer service interaction anymore but as “disobedience” to be countered with force.


    We see this same thing play out everywhere. Systems, regulations, rules, simply must be enforced, period.
    , @Wilkey
    The root of the f*ck up here is that they let these people board and then when the passenger just refused to get off (which I think is actually within his legal rights)

    An airline doesn't have the right to remove a passenger from their private property just because they've already been allowed on board? That makes zero sense. Of course they do.

    The nature of the airline industry is such that, absent some amazing feet of science and engineering, passengers will have to be bumped, sometimes against their will. Feel free to suggest an economically and scientifically feasible model in which that is not the case. The airline industry and millions of passengers are waiting to hear from you.
    , @dfordoom

    so they didn’t think of this as a normal customer service interaction anymore but as “disobedience” to be countered with force.
     
    Yes. And this is the kind of mindset that is becoming increasingly common in corporations. Customers are to be treated with contempt and if they complain then the best way to deal with it is to call security and escalate to intimidation and the threat of violence. Or in this case actual violence.

    Welcome to the Land of the Free in 2017.

    It's disappointing that a lot of people here think this doctor was in the wrong merely because he was Chinese.
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  90. @Barnard
    How do they get anyone to fly planes for $20k a year? You can make more at any number of menial jobs with a fraction of the stress level.

    How do they get anyone to fly planes for $20k a year? You can make more at any number of menial jobs with a fraction of the stress level

    Because it isn’t that stressful. Layfolk underestimate the amount of flying actually performed by automatic pilot. It’s why, after Amazon destroys what remains of the retail paradigm in the 2020s with same-hour drone delivery, commercial passenger drones will be next.

    Layfolk also overestimate the number of commercial pilots fed into the system by the military. Nowadays most new pilots come out of glorified “trucking academies”. The biggest consumers of new pilot talent, Chinese airlines, will put you behind the stick of a multi-engined Boeing with paying passengers on day one even if all your training has been in a simulator.

    For every cool-headed ex-military problem-solver like Captain Sullenberger, there are 5 journeymen who don’t even remember the basics of aerodynamics and flight controls, like that guy who augered Air France 447 into the South Atlantic because he couldn’t figure out what causes an aircraft to stall once the damn autopilot gets shut off.

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    • Agree: Triumph104
    • Replies: @CrunchybutRealistCon
    Bonin, the Air France crash pilot probably thot his Airbus would fly like an X-wing Fighter in outer space. Gravity had other ideas.
    Tbh, it probably means that Air France didn't do adequate crisis simulation testing in the simulator. The Swiss Air MD11 crash was another doozie. Instead of just getting landed asap, they studied an 80 page manual for fine detail while the fire spread and eventually burned thru their control wiring.
    As per all the grandstanding for high principle in this United event, it would be more efficient just to concede that commercial air travel has become a dystopian chore. Best avoided or kept to a minimum.
    , @Jack D
    Nuclear plant operator is the same thing. It' very hard to get people who are willing to put up with the constant boredom of staring at gauges that never move all day every day and yet are capable of doing top notch work on a moment's notice when suddenly they do move.
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  91. Art Deco says:

    The pilot business is operated like the acting business where pilots hope to land a gig at a major and earn a decent living but few ever do and those that don’t barely make a living. Regional carrier pilots sleep in the airline terminal or their cars because they can’t afford a motel room. But for United, live by the sword, die by the sword – they lent their name out to Republic so now they have to live with the PR blowback from what Republic did with it.

    Republic as a low rent operation refused to offer more than $800 to get a volunteer although they could have gone much higher. $800 is close to what they pay a pilot in a month. Cheaper to call the cops.

    There are some poorly compensated pilots for regional carriers, but the mean annual salary for pilots and flight engineers is about $131,000 per year. With regard to airline pilots, those compensated at the 10th percentile are earning $65,000 per year. For generic commercial pilots, the 10th percentile are earning just shy of $40,000. Quite modest, but nowhere near $10,000 per year as your correspondent states.

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    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    Art, Google Continental Flight 3407 , which crashed nearby, and see how little the pilot and co pilot were paid. Most commuter planes are not jets but turbo-props.
    , @Johann Ricke

    There are some poorly compensated pilots for regional carriers, but the mean annual salary for pilots and flight engineers is about $131,000 per year. With regard to airline pilots, those compensated at the 10th percentile are earning $65,000 per year. For generic commercial pilots, the 10th percentile are earning just shy of $40,000. Quite modest, but nowhere near $10,000 per year as your correspondent states.
     
    From Buffalo Joe's air disaster reference:

    NTSB investigators calculated Shaw was paid just over $16,000. Colgan officials testified that captains such as Renslow earn about $55,000 a year. The company later said Shaw's salary was $23,900 and that captains earn about $67,000.
     
    , @Lurker

    the mean annual salary for pilots and flight engineers
     
    I didn't know there were any flight engineers anymore? Sure, there maybe a few still on older planes, but most commercial aircraft are built around a two-pilot crew and have been for years now.
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  92. @Wilkey
    I consider this incident just more evidence of the power of private enterprises (in this instance, United, its Republic feeder-liner contractor, and the private security goon firm) ratcheting up their power over all of us

    Their power to remove you from their plane? Oh the nerve of them!

    We tend to think of flying as a right because we paid hundreds of dollars (or more) for a ticket in advance and if we can't fly it may take us a long time to reach our destination. But ultimately it isn't a right, and there may be times when the airlines, for whatever reason, can't or won't serve us.

    Bullshit. It’s not a privilege, it become a legal right when we buy the ticket.

    By the way, the airlines can either start paying for the full cost of airports (huge), which they don’t now, or start treating their customers far more humanely and honestly, as in honoring their contracts and not demeaning or threatening or harming passengers who merely demand that their honor their contract.

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    • Replies: @Wilkey
    By the way, the airlines can either start paying for the full cost of airports (huge), which they don’t now, or start treating their customers far more humanely and honestly, as in honoring their contracts and not demeaning or threatening or harming passengers who merely demand that their honor their contract.

    Dude, so glad you know so much about the business model of running an airline. Perhaps you should call them up and offer to fix all their problems.

    Which "contract(s)" would you have them break in order to keep that one asshole with that one ticket happy? How about the ~50-100 passengers in Louisville who would be stuck there because they didn't have a crew to fly their plane? Or maybe they should just break the law and risk passenger safety by putting a crew in the air that has run out of hours. Perhaps they should launch planes irregardless of risks due to weather, or launch planes with maintenance problems. Maybe they should keep 10 extra flight crews and five or six extra $100 million+ planes at every single airport on standby, just in case. After all, we wouldn't want to keep Doctor Asshole from getting to Louisville. Instead let's inconvenience a hundred other passengers and/or double the price of your airline ticket.

    Overbooked flights don't always happen because airlines want them to. They happen because weather, maintenance, and flight crew issues delay flights, causing them to have to shift passengers with connections to later flights. It's the minor inconvenience of a form of travel that gets us to our destinations weeks or even months faster than our ancestors would ever have dreamed of traveling.

    I already stated my preferred solution to the problem: keep raising the voucher offer until you get enough passengers to bite. Perhaps even a law to require that and airline go up to a certain minimum (e.g., $1,500) before they are allowed to forcibly bump a passenger. And i didn't say jack shit about the TSA.

    But hey, you know everything there is to know about the airline industry, so who am I to question your judgment?
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  93. @27 year old
    >you folks take that shit like a bunch of eloi and betas

    Yawn. Tell us all about the alpha male violent resistance you've done

    Sounded like Rod was saying that he avoids flying due to the abuse by police, TSA, and airline bullies.

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    • Replies: @Bill Jones
    There is nothing that people do that has more government involved in it than flying.
    Of course it's fucked up.
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  94. @27 year old
    >But ultimately it isn’t a right, and there may be times when the airlines, for whatever reason, can’t or won’t serve us.


    Yeah just like how a bakery can refuse to make a cake for a gay "wedding" and United Airlines stands with the bakery on that.

    Nice!

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  95. @Wilkey
    Even if Dao was correctly identified, his personal history had no place being made public.

    Oh, so Joe the Plumber was a legitimate target but not a "doctor" who lost his medical license for ten years?

    Joe the Plumber was a white conservative, so digging up his private divorce records is a-ok. Dao is a racial minority, so his felony convictions are totally off limits.

    Good point about Joe the Plumber, Wilkey. Neither Joe nor Dao should have been treated the way they were. It’s not an either-or proposition.

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  96. @Loveofknowledge
    I agree totally. I hate seeing squeaky wheels get oiled.

    If I got bumped off a flight, I would just think "oh, that sucks" and go hit the airport bar. That's because I'm a grownup.

    It would never in a million years occur to me to just say "no, I'm not going" like a spoiled, entitled, self-centered, bratty, petulant two-year-old.

    This guy is not a sympathetic victim. Maybe getting bashed in the head will have knocked some much-needed sense into him.

    He owes the airline and other passengers an apology. He should say "sorry I acted like a jerk and necessitated you calling security to physically remove me from the plane."

    We put up with so much nonsense anymore. You get more of what you tolerate and reward and encourage.

    Yes, and when we tolerate the airlines overbooking every flight they can, having zero intention of ensuring seats for paying customers who were promised a seat, and give seats to their employees over customers, then we get more of that unethical, rude, and presumptuous behavior by the airlines.

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  97. HEL says:
    @joeyjoejoe
    Nobody's going to remember it because its essentially irrelevant. Those regional carriers may not be United, but they are essentially controlled by United. None of those passengers bought a ticket on 'Republic' Airline. They bought it on United. If there were problems in the terminal, nobody goes to the 'Republic Airline' desk for help. They go to United. It is likely that their ticket said 'United Airline,' and they, of they cared at all, learned that it was 'Republic Airline' when they got on the plane.

    If you don't live at a major hub, you fly those regional airlines every single time you fly.

    Its irrelevant how much the pilots are paid. In fact, being bumped by an airline for a low-paid peon makes the whole situation worse; not better. Will my travel plans be cancelled next time because a cleaning lady for the airport bathroom is late for a Bat Mitzvah?

    Its irrelevant who called the cops: the point is that the cops were called.

    Its also less relevant that the cops misbehaved. The point is that the cops were called.

    Its also irrelevant that the doctor was a pill-pusher, or once cheated on his taxes, or was once caught picking his nose in public. The point is, he (like any of us could be) was treated the way he was.

    So the whole post is a collection of irrelevant facts. But, it had a witty final sentence, so I can see why you fell for it.

    joeyjoejoe

    You seem to be under the impression that purchasing a ticket on a plane gives you some sort of immutable, legally-enforceable right to be on the flight. This is incorrect. It’s incorrect under current regulations and it would be incorrect under traditional contract law. The legal tradition you are defending is wholly imaginary.

    So whatever the import of these tertiary issues, they are definitely more salient than your false assertions regarding the doctors right to remain on the plane. And if you really want to die on the hill of “No involuntary bumping! EVER!” well okay. But don’t call that conservatism, as you have elsewhere, because it ain’t.

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    • Replies: @Jack D
    The contract, the regs, everything, all talk about "denial of boarding". There is nothing that gives an airline a right to throw a non-disruptive passenger who is already boarded and seated out of the plane so that they can fly one of their own employees instead. This is going to be a big loser for them legally so they are going to settle and for a high $ amount in order to make this go away.
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  98. @Nope
    So this airline, Republic, only pays pilots $800 a month, and they sleep in their cars? That doesn't seem believable. Am I missing something? Also, the NYT editorial about this that Steve posted the other day said the passenger, a doctor, was some kind of poor person who the company wouldn't listen to. Has there been a huge shift recently in the incomes of previously high earning professionals like doctors and airline pilots?

    Nope, A Continental Airlines commuter flight #3407, operated by Colgon Air, from Newark to Buffalo, crashed into Clarence Center, not more than five minutes from my house. Fifty people lost their lives including the pilot and co-pilot. The testimony and investigation into the pilots’ experience and expertise was startling. I don’t think that they made $30k each and yes they slept in their cars and worked other jobs and were both asleep when the “Icing Alarm” went off. Under stress and tired, they pulled back on the yoke as the plane started to nose dive, the proper move was to push forward and regain lift. Plane crashed into a residential neighborhood slamming into my wife’s coworker’s house, killing the husband and injuring Karen and one daughter. My neighbor, 6 houses over, was killed on the plane as was an friend’s pregnant daughter. I went to three very sad funeral, with just a photo or two to represent the victim. The FAA and congressional committees held investigations and hearings and some training procedures were to be implemented, but sad to think that the kid in the from seat of the plane could earn more working a full time job at just $15 per hour.

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  99. @Art Deco
    The pilot business is operated like the acting business where pilots hope to land a gig at a major and earn a decent living but few ever do and those that don’t barely make a living. Regional carrier pilots sleep in the airline terminal or their cars because they can’t afford a motel room. But for United, live by the sword, die by the sword – they lent their name out to Republic so now they have to live with the PR blowback from what Republic did with it.

    Republic as a low rent operation refused to offer more than $800 to get a volunteer although they could have gone much higher. $800 is close to what they pay a pilot in a month. Cheaper to call the cops.

    There are some poorly compensated pilots for regional carriers, but the mean annual salary for pilots and flight engineers is about $131,000 per year. With regard to airline pilots, those compensated at the 10th percentile are earning $65,000 per year. For generic commercial pilots, the 10th percentile are earning just shy of $40,000. Quite modest, but nowhere near $10,000 per year as your correspondent states.

    Art, Google Continental Flight 3407 , which crashed nearby, and see how little the pilot and co pilot were paid. Most commuter planes are not jets but turbo-props.

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    • Replies: @Art Deco
    Again, JackD's comment did not assert that you could find an example of this, that, or the next thing. It asserted that pilots are routinely paid about $10,000 a year and are in a trade in which the labor market more resembles that for actors. The Bureau of Labor Statistics says it ain't so. (And, of course, we have the usual loudmouths here, one telling us pilots have no real skills and the other than the security staff at O'Hare Airport do not).
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  100. Flip says:
    @Nico
    Yup, the illusion of prosperity is kept alive by credit cards and a consumerist culture that encourages keeping up appearances. Otherwise the U.S. would now resemble 1950s Argentina.

    I think we will resemble 1980s Argentina soon enough. Don’t put your wealth in long term bonds.

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    • Replies: @Nico
    The mania for bonds as a "safe" or "risk-free" investment has always struck me as hilarious. Only a fool would trust a government with his money. And of course you know what they say about a fool ad his money...
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  101. Nope says:
    @utu
    "When are people gonna learn to do what the cops say and to sort it out later?"

    When Americans will learn to have higher expectations for cops behavior? You, probably never.

    Wow, Steve is right about people in America having short memories. A year ago everyone on this blog was backing cops when they were being picked off by black terrorists.

    This is one of those incidents that happens in a big country, but each side of the political spectrum spins for its own ends. Lind say “Look how soulless and greedy corporations are” or “Look how bad minorities are treated”, while conservatives say “Look how the state helps corporations screw over the little guy”.

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  102. Here. I’ll save everyone some work, the co-pilot of Continental flight #3407, that crashed near here, was 24 years old and she was paid $16300 the previous year. Both the pilot and co pilot were asleep when the “Icing” alarm went off. Read about #3407 and you will be startled.

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    • Replies: @wren
    Thank you for clearing that up for me.

    My own personal narrative all this time had been that she was incompetent and the airline knew it, but had been hesitant to address it as she was a young lady.
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  103. Nope says:
    @Dr. X

    So this airline, Republic, only pays pilots $800 a month, and they sleep in their cars? That doesn’t seem believable. Am I missing something?
     
    Yep. When the Continental/Colgan Air commuter flight crashed in Buffalo in 2009, it was revealed that the pilots were pretty much making Wal-Mart money, especially the 23-year old girl co-pilot, who was making something like $16,000.

    The captain was slightly better paid, but had minimal experience and literally didn't know how to fly the airplane. When it aerodynamically stalled, he pulled back on the yoke rather than pushing it forward. R.I.P., 50 people.

    That'll pucker you right up next time you book a flight...

    That’s crazy. I had no idea they were so poorly paid.

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  104. Jack D says:
    @Opinionator
    Pretty good writing from Jack D.

    Thanks!

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  105. @jill
    No mention of the three other passengers who disembarked when legally told to do so. I certainly hope Dao is now on the "Do Not Fly List". He can walk home to Kentucky now.

    Hell yeah. Actually, they should have executed him on the spot for having the temerity to demand shit he had no right to! Did he think he was black or something? That would also have had the salutatory effect of reminding all the other passengers from non-protected classes of their real place in society.

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  106. Jack D says:
    @HEL
    You seem to be under the impression that purchasing a ticket on a plane gives you some sort of immutable, legally-enforceable right to be on the flight. This is incorrect. It's incorrect under current regulations and it would be incorrect under traditional contract law. The legal tradition you are defending is wholly imaginary.

    So whatever the import of these tertiary issues, they are definitely more salient than your false assertions regarding the doctors right to remain on the plane. And if you really want to die on the hill of "No involuntary bumping! EVER!" well okay. But don't call that conservatism, as you have elsewhere, because it ain't.

    The contract, the regs, everything, all talk about “denial of boarding”. There is nothing that gives an airline a right to throw a non-disruptive passenger who is already boarded and seated out of the plane so that they can fly one of their own employees instead. This is going to be a big loser for them legally so they are going to settle and for a high $ amount in order to make this go away.

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    • Replies: @Marat
    Every day this goes unsettled, it'll cause massive red for United.

    Whenever corporate behavior doesn't make sense, it is almost certain that government regulation is driving the idiocy. This could be a Stossel exclusive.

    , @Dieter Kief
    If I think about it - if I was - say: A needy doctor in some financial troubles and would know what you say here: It might be no foolish move at all to resist the airline's attempts to get me out of the plane.
    , @AnotherDad

    The contract, the regs, everything, all talk about “denial of boarding”. There is nothing that gives an airline a right to throw a non-disruptive passenger who is already boarded and seated out of the plane so that they can fly one of their own employees instead. This is going to be a big loser for them legally so they are going to settle and for a high $ amount in order to make this go away.
     
    You're probably right about it being a big loser--because a lot of people are stupid and emotional and trial lawyers love to empanel jurys of such idiots. But this is why people hate lawyers.

    There is absolutely *zero* functional difference between denial on or off the plane. The functional issue is can they take you on the trip? (United had a very good reason for why they could not do that for four passengers--a plane full of customers in Louisville waiting for a crew.) You may *feel* that it's "your seat" once you plot you butt into it. But it's not. It's still United's seat on United's plane.

    (Personally I've never considered anything about flying to be even *partially* final until they close the cabin door. That's a hint the passenger list *may* be finalizing and perhaps AnotherMom and I will be able to share that empty seat. But even then a few times I've seen the door reopened. Once we went back to the gate and deplaned.)

    But now I now ... the airline cedes its rights to its plane upon "boarding".

    So tell me Jack when exactly does this "ensoulment"--"enboardment"?--occur?

    Is it when they scan my boarding pass--then they can't bump me? Is it when I cross through the boarding door and enter the jetway? Is it when I actually step onto the plane? Or do I actually have to take my seat? Hey, what happens if I've sat down ... but i'm in the *wrong* seat? I see people doing that all the time. I sometimes do it myself intentionally when I think the plane isn't full and i'm hanging back toward the end of the boarding. Can the airline take me off if they've let me on but i'm not sitting in my correct seat?

    I just want to know when exactly the airline loses its property rights and I become master and commander of my airplane seat?
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  107. a sordid rogue’s gallery of marginal players trying to scratch out a living in the sad twilight of the American empire

    Brilliant!

    Of course in the dying days of Roman civilization, it must have been the same. The roads, the sewers, the brilliant engineering of the viaducts and the ports, the temples, the public baths, the stadiums did not all suddenly disappear in a puff of smoke, it must have been a slow process of cities going bankrupt, water supplies failing and becoming contaminated, bridges and potholes not being properly repaired due to revenue shortages and affirmative action for Visigoth companies, dams collapsing, stadiums closing down as the games became too expensive for local taxpayers, gladiators died off or retired to the Costa Brava and did nostalgia shows, sewers getting clogged with oyster shells and rusting chariot wheels, and so on.

    We are probably seeing the beginning of the end of the great 20th century American civilization, but the Orange Don is probably just the first of a long line of increasingly flaky hereditary Emperors whose tenure will become shorter and shorter until it is nothing unusual to have four Presidents in the same year, and none of us will live long enough to see the Last Trump.

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    • Replies: @Art Deco
    Of course in the dying days of Roman civilization, it must have been the same. The roads, the sewers, the brilliant engineering of the viaducts and the ports, the temples, the public baths, the stadiums did not all suddenly disappear in a puff of smoke, it must have been a slow process of cities going bankrupt, water supplies failing and becoming contaminated, bridges and potholes not being properly repaired due to revenue shortages and affirmative action for Visigoth companies,

    See the historian Philip Daeleader. The evidence indicates that the western provinces in the Roman Empire were in a state of demographic implosion from the mid-3d to the mid-7th century. Nothing comparable is happening today (though the fertility situation in some affluent countries is ominous). Btw, references to 'American empire' are all humbug.
    , @Jack D
    There are little bits and pieces in Rome that give you a clue of what it was like when things fell apart. The Portico of Octavia (in the middle of the Rome ghetto) comes to mind.

    Before:

    http://de2d2g2qlnqhe.cloudfront.net/content/ucpjsah/74/3/289/F11.large.jpg

    After:

    http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-X7HNaWhezNk/T4YSt-aVsgI/AAAAAAAAA5I/SbjA7pv-T14/s1600/Portico+of+Octavia.jpg

    Originally it was adorned with foreign marble and contained many famous works of art, but it was damaged by an earthquake in 442 AD. By then, they know longer had the money/skill to replace the destroyed marble columns, so instead they held up one end of the cornice with a crude brick archway which still stands and then they used part of the ruins as a church. The portico was used as a fish market from the medieval period, and up to the end of 19th century.
    , @Faraday's Bobcat
    And every time the ratchet clicks down, it'll be advertised as an improvement. It's already happening with software.
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  108. Art Deco says:
    @Anonymous
    In this case "the cops" aren't even The Cops. Those guys were some rent-a-thugs called the Chicago Aviation Police. They aren't even under the police commissioner in Chicago. Just because you spent four years changing the oil on Humvees doesn't make you a cop. These numb-nuts criminalized a contract dispute.

    I think it would be condign punishment if one or more of them caused you to have a nasty accident.

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  109. Das says:
    @Veracitor
    Perhaps I misinterpreted this Federal regulation (14 CFR 250.5) (excerpt below, emphasis added):

    (a) Subject to the exceptions provided in § 250.6, a carrier to whom this part applies as described in § 250.2 shall pay compensation in interstate air transportation to passengers who are denied boarding involuntarily from an oversold flight as follows:
     

    (3) Compensation shall be 400% of the fare to the passenger's destination or first stopover, with a maximum of $1,350, if the carrier does not offer alternate transportation that, at the time the arrangement is made, is planned to arrive at the airport of the passenger's first stopover, or if none, the airport of the passenger's final destination less than two hours after the planned arrival time of the passenger's original flight.
     

    Yes, that is what they are required to pay a customer who is involuntarily bumped from a flight. 4x the price of the ticket, capped at $1350.

    There’s no regulation on what they pay customers to voluntarily give up their seat. They can pay whatever they want as long as the customer agrees to it.

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  110. @Jack D
    While the $1,350 is the cap for INVOLUNTARY denial it tends to set a cap on voluntary offers - why should the airline offer you more $ if they can just involuntarily deny you? (Why except for the possibility of a BILLION $ worth of bad publicity?) Usually they pick someone weak looking as a victim (notice that 3 out of 4 went along meekly). You're standing at the gate and you can shout all you want but they're not letting you on the plane or paying you more $. Here's your $1,350 (or less - it's 4x the ticket price), take it or leave it. This happens thousands of times and a worldwide stink has never resulted until now.

    Notice BTW that the reg says "denial of boarding" - it doesn't contemplate that they can remove you after you are already boarded and minding your own business.

    The root of the f*ck up here is that they let these people board and then when the passenger just refused to get off (which I think is actually within his legal rights) they resorted to force. When the guy said that he wasn't leaving, they should have thought of a different move but the Stanford prison experiment mentality instantly kicked in so they didn't think of this as a normal customer service interaction anymore but as "disobedience" to be countered with force.

    >the Stanford prison experiment mentality instantly kicked in so they didn’t think of this as a normal customer service interaction anymore but as “disobedience” to be countered with force.

    We see this same thing play out everywhere. Systems, regulations, rules, simply must be enforced, period.

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  111. Art Deco says:
    @Buffalo Joe
    Art, Google Continental Flight 3407 , which crashed nearby, and see how little the pilot and co pilot were paid. Most commuter planes are not jets but turbo-props.

    Again, JackD’s comment did not assert that you could find an example of this, that, or the next thing. It asserted that pilots are routinely paid about $10,000 a year and are in a trade in which the labor market more resembles that for actors. The Bureau of Labor Statistics says it ain’t so. (And, of course, we have the usual loudmouths here, one telling us pilots have no real skills and the other than the security staff at O’Hare Airport do not).

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  112. We see this same thing play out everywhere. Systems, regulations, rules, simply must be enforced, period.

    As the saying goes, life is an intelligence test. There’s a reason why we have the stereotype of the inexperienced, nervous, trigger-happy rookie cop who can’t help escalating situations vs. the seasoned, avuncular, veteran cop who knows how to defuse situations.

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  113. HEL says:

    The contract, the regs, everything, all talk about “denial of boarding”. There is nothing that gives an airline a right to throw a non-disruptive passenger who is already boarded and seated out of the plane so that they can fly one of their own employees instead.

    Yeah, that phrase could be interpreted as saying once you’re physically on the plane you can’t be bumped. And it could also be argued that removing someone from a plane during the boarding phase is also a denial of boarding. I’ve never seen anyone point to any evidence of this regulation actually being interpreted to say that setting foot on the plane makes you unbumpable. I’d imagine it would’ve come up during this whole controversy if there were any such evidence. Nor is there any rational reason why merely stepping inside the plane should end the possibility of being bumped. So I suspect the “set foot in cabin and you’re home free” interpretation is nonsense.

    But, let’s assume you’re right, the regulation really does mean to draw setting foot in the cabin as some sort of definitive line. Does Dao have the right to demand to remain on the plane? Nope. United can breach their contract. They’ll be liable to him in court, certainly, but you can’t coerce people into performing service contracts for you. So sorry, he doesn’t have the right to demand to stay on regardless.

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    • Replies: @Jack D
    Maybe it was a failure of vision on the contract writers/ reg writers part (the regs get written by airline industry lobbyist lawyers too) but up until this week, everyone envisioned that the bumping process takes place at the gate BEFORE they let you on the plane, so they don't seem to cover getting "bumped" after you have already boarded. After this they will probably close that loophole, but you can't infer something into the law that doesn't exist just because it makes sense. God knows the airlines have plenty of lawyers who could have written this in if they wanted to, but they didn't (yet). They also cover "overbooking" for other passengers with confirmed reservations but don't say anything about being allowed to bump you for their own deadheading crew. Again, maybe they can fix this to their advantage in the future but that's not what it says now.

    Breaching the contract was one thing. Using an arm of the government as their goons to enforce a civil contract is something else. If you don't pay your cable bill, can Comcast send the cops to beat you unconscious or not yet?

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  114. Art Deco says:
    @Nico
    Yup, the illusion of prosperity is kept alive by credit cards and a consumerist culture that encourages keeping up appearances. Otherwise the U.S. would now resemble 1950s Argentina.

    Yup, the illusion of prosperity is kept alive by credit cards and a consumerist culture that encourages keeping up appearances. Otherwise the U.S. would now resemble 1950s Argentina.

    Per capita product in Argentina in 1955 was about 1/6th that of the United States today, so, no. Of all the troubles that might beset the American economy in the next 15 years, triple-digit inflation is about the least likely. Re the balance of payments, the current account deficit is currently running at an annual rate of -2.6% of gdp, so we could benefit from a rebalancing with less consumption and more savings. Cutting consumption by 3 or 4% isn’t going to erase 85% of our productive capacity.

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    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
    "Per capita product in Argentina in 1955 was about 1/6th that of the United States today, so, no."

    A lot of our gross domestic product is bullshit: legal process, compliance with government regulations, porn, video games, cable TV shows, life-coaching, etc.

    By the way, Art, did you manage to pick up some property in Ferguson cheap?
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  115. I might be wrong, but the guy who actually goes hands on with the passenger doesn’t look like a cop. I thought maybe airport security.

    Also, having tried to remove people from confined spaces (busses and cars) I can say it’s way, way harder than you might think. Tons of stuff for the guy to hold onto and/or hit himself on, very hard to get leverage, impossible to get more than one person in there, etc.

    I’m not saying the decision to go hands on was good (it wasn’t), but insofar as the physical act is not at all unlike a sports play, I can tell you that most cops regard “they should have done it better / they need better training” comments just as athletes regard advice from observers who have never played, studied, or carefully watched the sport they’re talking about.

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    • Replies: @Old Palo Altan
    Thank you sir. We need more comments like this one from experts in their fields. There is really far too much windbaggery around here these days.
    , @Bill Jones
    The place for the enforcement of contracts is the civil court system.

    Not some overweight, over paid moron in a government clown suit.

    Did the buffoon know the details of the ticket's restrictions?
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  116. @celt darnell

    Sort of ironic that the Chinaman is now getting whites addicted to opium instead of vice versa – cosmic revenge I guess.
     

    That was the British. So it’s not cosmic or a revenge at all.
     
    Yeah, but don't you get it, Twinkie? As a white person, you're guilty of all the crimes all white people have committed throughout history.

    This is why you're guilty of the crimes of the Third Reich even if your father or grandfather fought under Patton.

    For what it is worth, at least when I grew up, the Chinese pretty clearly distinguish the British as guilty and not “whites.” I was taught that while various European nations did indeed divide up China, the British were the most guilty and the Germans the most innocuous. In a fairly recent visit to China, the government-run museums seems to carry a similar line.

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    • Replies: @Art Deco
    They didn't 'divide up' China at all. Various western powers acquired extraterritorial privileges during the period running from 1842 to 1900, which privileges were later discontinued. The geographic extent of the concessions in question was tiny. They're just manufacturing self-dramatizing myths.
    , @Anon
    "I was taught that while various European nations did indeed divide up China, the British were the most guilty and the Germans the most innocuous."

    Germans were quite ruthless in putting down in Chinese rebellions. But maybe their gift of beer was more welcome than opium.

    I think the anti-British animus is partly real(and maybe justified) but also partly due to the fact that Chinese gained a lot under the British. British led the way in opening China, and that made modernization possible. Brits did much to build up Shanghai. British model of development in Singapore and HK offered much good advice to mainland as a whole. To admit the positive side of British influence would be embarrassing. So, they stress only the Evil Side.

    But blacks are the same way. To admit that they gained anything from whites would be embarrassing. So, they act like total victims.
    , @Johann Ricke

    I was taught that while various European nations did indeed divide up China, the British were the most guilty and the Germans the most innocuous.
     
    They barely grazed China, let alone divided it up. Their real impact on China was to open it up to trade. Trade wasn't a very big part of China's economy before Europeans showed up. Then it became indispensable, with China racking up big surpluses until the British had the bright idea of selling superior Indian opium - then traded and used globally, including in the British Isles and the US - to the Chinese market. That worked to curb Chinese trade surplus for a while, until the Chinese started growing the Indian poppy cultivars domestically.
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  117. Art Deco says:
    @Jonathan Mason

    a sordid rogue’s gallery of marginal players trying to scratch out a living in the sad twilight of the American empire
     
    Brilliant!

    Of course in the dying days of Roman civilization, it must have been the same. The roads, the sewers, the brilliant engineering of the viaducts and the ports, the temples, the public baths, the stadiums did not all suddenly disappear in a puff of smoke, it must have been a slow process of cities going bankrupt, water supplies failing and becoming contaminated, bridges and potholes not being properly repaired due to revenue shortages and affirmative action for Visigoth companies, dams collapsing, stadiums closing down as the games became too expensive for local taxpayers, gladiators died off or retired to the Costa Brava and did nostalgia shows, sewers getting clogged with oyster shells and rusting chariot wheels, and so on.

    We are probably seeing the beginning of the end of the great 20th century American civilization, but the Orange Don is probably just the first of a long line of increasingly flaky hereditary Emperors whose tenure will become shorter and shorter until it is nothing unusual to have four Presidents in the same year, and none of us will live long enough to see the Last Trump.

    Of course in the dying days of Roman civilization, it must have been the same. The roads, the sewers, the brilliant engineering of the viaducts and the ports, the temples, the public baths, the stadiums did not all suddenly disappear in a puff of smoke, it must have been a slow process of cities going bankrupt, water supplies failing and becoming contaminated, bridges and potholes not being properly repaired due to revenue shortages and affirmative action for Visigoth companies,

    See the historian Philip Daeleader. The evidence indicates that the western provinces in the Roman Empire were in a state of demographic implosion from the mid-3d to the mid-7th century. Nothing comparable is happening today (though the fertility situation in some affluent countries is ominous). Btw, references to ‘American empire’ are all humbug.

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  118. Bill says:
    @Barnard
    How do they get anyone to fly planes for $20k a year? You can make more at any number of menial jobs with a fraction of the stress level.

    Uh, the same way they get women to queue up to be screwed by an endless sequence of Hollywood sleazeballs on their way to a life of waiting tables and worrying whether they have enough money to feed their cats. Did you know the women who skate in the Ice Capades make basically minimum wage? Dancers who don’t quite make it? Have you been around youth sports in the US at all? Stupid people are stupid. Even some smart people are stupid. You can get them to believe that being an actress or a pilot or an athlete is glamorous by only showing them success.

    But, you know, follow your dreams. It may not be in your own interest, but it sure is in someone’s interest. Sort of like opiods that way.

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    • Agree: Triumph104
    • Replies: @Anonymous

    Uh, the same way they get women to queue up to be screwed by an endless sequence of Hollywood sleazeballs on their way to a life of waiting tables and worrying whether they have enough money to feed their cats. Did you know the women who skate in the Ice Capades make basically minimum wage? Dancers who don’t quite make it? Have you been around youth sports in the US at all? Stupid people are stupid. Even some smart people are stupid. You can get them to believe that being an actress or a pilot or an athlete is glamorous by only showing them success.
     
    The difference between "pay to play" for rock bands and the casting couch for would be actresses, and "pay to fly" and $10/hour F/O jobs on $25 million dollar regional jets is that in the latter, lives are at stake. The medical and legal professions have kept similar schemes to put newbies with cash in operating rooms and courtrooms out of the question: it's a shame the ALPA wasn't foresighted enough to do likewise when they had the leverage.
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  119. OFWHAP says:
    @Anonymous
    I would have never imagined that airline pilots make so little money. I had always assumed it was a relatively good gig.

    A good friend’s dad is or used to be a Delta pilot and made $350,000 per year while flying 4-5 times per month. I’m not sure when this was.

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    • Replies: @Johanus de Morgateroyde

    A good friend’s dad is or used to be a Delta pilot and made $350,000 per year while flying 4-5 times per month. I’m not sure when this was.
     
    This is still the case for the senior captains at major airlines. It's possible to schedule all of one month's flights at the end of the month and the next month's all at the beginning and basically have two months off in the middle. All while making great whacking amounts of money. The last five years of a pilot's career are usually pretty epic.

    But that's after a 30 year career at the same airline, maintaining your seniority line number, divorcing two wives, missing all your kids' birthdays and every Christmas, and sleeping in pilot "crash pads" for the first 15 years of your career. Then having your 401k cut in half as the airline you work for goes through bankruptcy or a merger in the second 15 years of your career.

    FedEx tries to hire just ex-military pilots and pays well in the beginning. But the military doesn't produce many pilots these days and hasn't in many years.

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  120. Art Deco says:
    @Daniel Chieh
    For what it is worth, at least when I grew up, the Chinese pretty clearly distinguish the British as guilty and not "whites." I was taught that while various European nations did indeed divide up China, the British were the most guilty and the Germans the most innocuous. In a fairly recent visit to China, the government-run museums seems to carry a similar line.

    They didn’t ‘divide up’ China at all. Various western powers acquired extraterritorial privileges during the period running from 1842 to 1900, which privileges were later discontinued. The geographic extent of the concessions in question was tiny. They’re just manufacturing self-dramatizing myths.

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  121. I have been told that three passengers took up the offer of $800 and hotel. One was the doctor’s wife. The doc has a checkered; he is looking more sleazy than ever.
    As for me, I will fly with United. They know how to deal with ruffians.

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  122. res says:
    @eD
    Its worth reading Yves Smith at Naked Capitalism in conjunction with the two United Airlines incidents threads here. I'm posting this comment in the later of the two threads so that it gets buried by the half dozen Steve Sailer posts a little later.

    The Naked Capitalism thread corrects some of the comments being made here, but the important one is that United's actions were in fact in pretty clear violation of FAA regulations:

    http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2017/04/united-passenger-removal-reporting-management-fail.html

    Scroll down to the second point or do a "Cntrl F" on "regulation" to get to this. Basically FAA regulations do allow airplanes to "bump" paying passengers with confirmed seats, but not to give a flight to their own employees.

    Further down there is some commentary on who the "police" were and why one of them wound up working at the airport at this point in his career.

    Thanks for that link.

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  123. goatweed says:

    What is my best course of action to get the maximum payout in cash not vouchers?

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  124. Danindc says:
    @Percy Gryce
    Entitled (and somewhat crazy) minority and overaggressive cops.

    Why can't both things be true?

    I like my cops aggressive. The “doctor” can go F himself. He’s a parasite.

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  125. Marat says:
    @Jack D
    The contract, the regs, everything, all talk about "denial of boarding". There is nothing that gives an airline a right to throw a non-disruptive passenger who is already boarded and seated out of the plane so that they can fly one of their own employees instead. This is going to be a big loser for them legally so they are going to settle and for a high $ amount in order to make this go away.

    Every day this goes unsettled, it’ll cause massive red for United.

    Whenever corporate behavior doesn’t make sense, it is almost certain that government regulation is driving the idiocy. This could be a Stossel exclusive.

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    • Replies: @Brutusale
    A scene from the movie Splash is instructive:

    McCulloch, supermarket buyer: "Bauer, where are my cherries?"
    Bauer, produce company owner: "Your cherries, yes. Believe me, you won't be satisfied with what we have."
    McCulloch: "That's it, Bauer, you're ruined! Everyone is going to find out you left me high and dry! You're finished, a ghost!"
    Bauer: "How'd you like bananas at cost?"
    McCulloch: "DEAL!"

    A few weeks of cheap United fares and Dr. Dumb Dao is forgotten.
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  126. Daniel H says:
    @Nope
    So this airline, Republic, only pays pilots $800 a month, and they sleep in their cars? That doesn't seem believable. Am I missing something? Also, the NYT editorial about this that Steve posted the other day said the passenger, a doctor, was some kind of poor person who the company wouldn't listen to. Has there been a huge shift recently in the incomes of previously high earning professionals like doctors and airline pilots?

    A few years ago there was a plane crash in Buffalo New York. The airline was one of these regional carriers. Turns out the co-pilot, a young lady, was moonlighting at Starbucks or something like it. She was barely making above minimum wage as a pilot.

    I don’t know how much experience she and the pilot had but on approach they mishandled a simple stall, doing precisely contrary to operating procedure when a stall hits. The pilot pulled up, bringing the nose higher in the air, worsening the stall, overriding computer warnings and the action of the throttle which automatically starts to dive, when he should have pushed the nose down and given the engines all they had. If he had done that, they would have been fine. How much did lack of experience, flying sporadically, taking part-time gigs when offered contribute to this crash? Hmmm.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colgan_Air_Flight_3407

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    • Replies: @Lurker
    Just reading about that crash. The Capt. had been on a pay to fly program at some point.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pay_to_fly

    Thats how bad things in the airline business! Not just unpaid interns but paying to work.
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  127. Nico says:
    @Flip
    I think we will resemble 1980s Argentina soon enough. Don't put your wealth in long term bonds.

    The mania for bonds as a “safe” or “risk-free” investment has always struck me as hilarious. Only a fool would trust a government with his money. And of course you know what they say about a fool ad his money…

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    • Replies: @David Davenport
    The mania for bonds as a “safe” or “risk-free” investment has always struck me as hilarious. Only a fool would trust a government with his money. And of course you know what they say about a fool ad his money…

    Nico, after you retire, what is your plan to support yourself?
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  128. @Percy Gryce
    Entitled (and somewhat crazy) minority and overaggressive cops.

    Why can't both things be true?

    And both feed back on each other, and both are symptoms of the decline of civil society and social capital.

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  129. @The Man From K Street

    How do they get anyone to fly planes for $20k a year? You can make more at any number of menial jobs with a fraction of the stress level
     
    Because it isn't that stressful. Layfolk underestimate the amount of flying actually performed by automatic pilot. It's why, after Amazon destroys what remains of the retail paradigm in the 2020s with same-hour drone delivery, commercial passenger drones will be next.

    Layfolk also overestimate the number of commercial pilots fed into the system by the military. Nowadays most new pilots come out of glorified "trucking academies". The biggest consumers of new pilot talent, Chinese airlines, will put you behind the stick of a multi-engined Boeing with paying passengers on day one even if all your training has been in a simulator.

    For every cool-headed ex-military problem-solver like Captain Sullenberger, there are 5 journeymen who don't even remember the basics of aerodynamics and flight controls, like that guy who augered Air France 447 into the South Atlantic because he couldn't figure out what causes an aircraft to stall once the damn autopilot gets shut off.

    Bonin, the Air France crash pilot probably thot his Airbus would fly like an X-wing Fighter in outer space. Gravity had other ideas.
    Tbh, it probably means that Air France didn’t do adequate crisis simulation testing in the simulator. The Swiss Air MD11 crash was another doozie. Instead of just getting landed asap, they studied an 80 page manual for fine detail while the fire spread and eventually burned thru their control wiring.
    As per all the grandstanding for high principle in this United event, it would be more efficient just to concede that commercial air travel has become a dystopian chore. Best avoided or kept to a minimum.

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    • Replies: @Jim Don Bob
    On the Air France flight the pitot tubes clogged with ice which turned off the autopilot and made the instruments give incorrect info. The pilot pulled up to counter turbulence and the plane was soon climbing at 7000 fpm with the engines running at 100% while its airspeed had dropped to 60mph. The angle of attack reached 40 degrees which was outside the computers "understanding" so there was no stall warning. The stall continued for the next 3 1/2 minutes as the plane fell from 38000 feet and hit the ocean.

    The two yokes were not mechanically linked so the second pilot had no cue that the third younger more inexperienced pilot was pulling back as hard as he could, and the yoke of the third pilot overrode that of the second pilot.

    More here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_447 and here: http://www.vanityfair.com/news/business/2014/10/air-france-flight-447-crash
    , @Anonymous
    Bad engineering, bad piloting and bad weather all helped to take down the the Air France plane. The pitot tube flaw should have been spotted and corrected of course, but this wouldn't have mattered if an experienced pilot had been at the controls, or if the weather had been better. The novice pilot flew directly into a big storm. Basic piloting error. Other aircraft in the vicinity flew around it, but AF447 went straight in and never came out.
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  130. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    1. In Retrospect, I Guess We Might Have Resorted To Cannibalism A Bit Early

    2. The doctor’s quack past isn’t relevant strictly in the sense of his not being singled out for bumping (that we know of), and loosely so if you believe he got put in some ordeal by an evil corp and “reacted the way any of us would” (i.e. kicking/screaming like a girl). However, it *is* relevant to discussing his escalation of the conflict after the judgment had been made. I think S.E. Asians in the states are beginning to imitate blacks for social leverage. This was not the stereotype 20 years ago, the guy might have been expected to fume about missing his flight but would naturally resort to civil/legal remedies rather than have a tantrum in public. Due to feminization & gay supremacy in late capitalism the virtues of manliness have become confused with white-trash vices such as “throw punches at guards” and “no one takes food out of my mouth.”

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  131. wren says:
    @celt darnell

    Sort of ironic that the Chinaman is now getting whites addicted to opium instead of vice versa – cosmic revenge I guess.
     

    That was the British. So it’s not cosmic or a revenge at all.
     
    Yeah, but don't you get it, Twinkie? As a white person, you're guilty of all the crimes all white people have committed throughout history.

    This is why you're guilty of the crimes of the Third Reich even if your father or grandfather fought under Patton.

    All this time I assumed Twinkie was Asian.

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    • Replies: @Peripatetic commenter
    You don't get it. He's an honorary white person.

    However, I do have to wonder what part of Christianity resonates with Asians or whether they are genetically a strain of people who are closest to strongly Christian whites ... selection is an interesting sieve of Eratosthenes ...
    , @Peripatetic commenter
    The LA Times says: We smeared the right man, so suck it!

    http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-united-david-dao-20170412-story.html
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  132. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    I think most of the reax are cathartic, muh feels, etc. but the comment about the United-Republic relationship is more with the Zeitgeist. These days everyone is a contractor to a contractor for a general contractor under retainer to someone else living in a fortress of solitude somewhere in Norway or the Isle of Man. According to invisible-hand libertoids we’re now “our own bosses” which puts their customary attitude toward LEO in an interesting light.

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  133. Olorin says:

    Sort of ironic that the Chinaman is now getting whites addicted to opium instead of vice versa – cosmic revenge I guess.

    Actually it was the Sackler brothers and their sons who drugged white America in this way…

    …by developing the market for these drugs through mainstream and mass media, and turning physicians into pushers.

    So once again, it’s not the Chinaman’s innovation; he was just serving other masters as mule.

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  134. wren says:
    @Buffalo Joe
    Here. I'll save everyone some work, the co-pilot of Continental flight #3407, that crashed near here, was 24 years old and she was paid $16300 the previous year. Both the pilot and co pilot were asleep when the "Icing" alarm went off. Read about #3407 and you will be startled.

    Thank you for clearing that up for me.

    My own personal narrative all this time had been that she was incompetent and the airline knew it, but had been hesitant to address it as she was a young lady.

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  135. @Jack D
    Yes, it was the Jooos what done it. All Jooos, nothing but Jooos. No Christian, certainly no American, would ever do such a thing.

    Jooos like FDR's grandpa. Roosevelt is a Jewish name after all. They must have changed it from Rosenfeld to confuse the goyim.


    http://www.ozy.com/flashback/the-drug-that-bankrolled-some-of-americas-great-dynasties/40555

    As I understand it,an Iranian joo,er,Jew named Sassoon was the driving force behind getting opium into the hands of those eager Chinese. (What with being coolies all day,you can’t blame them for looking for a little fun.)
    Sassoon was the son of the top Jew in Iran,sort of the Jared Kushner of his day. When the government fell,Sassoon left for greener pastures. The Crown was looking to trade with China,but not with gold. Sassoon offered them a different currency.
    Victoria,who once asserted re female homosexuality,”women don’t do that sort of thing”,seemed to feel that getting a whole bunch of Chinese hooked on dope WAS doable,and the coolies could be enticed to do THAT thing.
    “Why do you think they call it dope?”,she purportedly asked.
    Sassoon set up the opium business,leaving his other imports(like cotton) behind.Many other jewish families joined in. The power of the British navy protected the trade. Sassoons slogan,”Just Dont Say No”,became ubiquitous among the poor.
    This would make a good movie,with Leo perhaps as Sassoon?

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    • Replies: @Johann Ricke

    As I understand it,an Iranian joo,er,Jew named Sassoon was the driving force behind getting opium into the hands of those eager Chinese.
     
    This retconning of current mores to those of almost 2 centuries ago is misleading. At the time of the conflict, opium was legal throughout the rest of the world, including all of the West and its overseas holdings. And the Chinese only targeted imports. The weak domestic variety was left alone. Imperial Chinese propaganda pointed to opium as the source of China's problems despite the fact that Chinese communities around the world had unfettered access to opium and yet thrived in material terms wherever they were. The key was getting out from under Chinese rule.
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  136. @Chriscom
    An industry site I checked says a first officer with a year under his belt at Republic averages $40,000 in base pay plus benefits. A captain with four years, $80,000.

    Big whoop. First year kindergarten teachers here in the Peoples’ Republic make more than that, and I think learning how to fly a plane is a tad bit harder than getting a BA in Education.

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  137. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Anonymous
    People don't realize how poorly paid most pilots are. There are more pilots than there are jobs, so the competition for spots at the major airlines is intense. But enough pilots are willing to work for the regional carriers --keeping the dream alive that they will someday land a good job-- that the industry can get away with paying them next to nothing.

    You see an almost perfect parallel in higher education. People spend the best years of their lives making 15k a year as grad-student teaching assistants (or even less as adjuncts), hoping that a college will hire them for a real job someday.

    http://100rsns.blogspot.com/2014/10/94-it-warps-your-expectations.html

    How many industries work this way?

    “People don’t realize how poorly paid most pilots are. There are more pilots than there are jobs, so the competition for spots at the major airlines is intense.”

    And there is global competition from foreign pilots.

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  138. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Anonymous
    In this case "the cops" aren't even The Cops. Those guys were some rent-a-thugs called the Chicago Aviation Police. They aren't even under the police commissioner in Chicago. Just because you spent four years changing the oil on Humvees doesn't make you a cop. These numb-nuts criminalized a contract dispute.

    It’s typical of the Narrative that the race of the passenger is discussed but not the race of the ‘cops’.

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  139. Jack D says:
    @The Man From K Street

    How do they get anyone to fly planes for $20k a year? You can make more at any number of menial jobs with a fraction of the stress level
     
    Because it isn't that stressful. Layfolk underestimate the amount of flying actually performed by automatic pilot. It's why, after Amazon destroys what remains of the retail paradigm in the 2020s with same-hour drone delivery, commercial passenger drones will be next.

    Layfolk also overestimate the number of commercial pilots fed into the system by the military. Nowadays most new pilots come out of glorified "trucking academies". The biggest consumers of new pilot talent, Chinese airlines, will put you behind the stick of a multi-engined Boeing with paying passengers on day one even if all your training has been in a simulator.

    For every cool-headed ex-military problem-solver like Captain Sullenberger, there are 5 journeymen who don't even remember the basics of aerodynamics and flight controls, like that guy who augered Air France 447 into the South Atlantic because he couldn't figure out what causes an aircraft to stall once the damn autopilot gets shut off.

    Nuclear plant operator is the same thing. It’ very hard to get people who are willing to put up with the constant boredom of staring at gauges that never move all day every day and yet are capable of doing top notch work on a moment’s notice when suddenly they do move.

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    • Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist

    Nuclear plant operator is the same thing.

     

    This thread is getting closer and closer to converging on this issue's essence: the whole brouhaha comes straight from a Simpson's episode. Not good news for 21st-century America.

    BTW, Jack, your comments on this really have been insightful; thanks very much.

    We Calvinists fly a lot, but mostly either long-haul Asia--USA, or within Asia. We gave up on United many years ago, after a couple of awful episodes on the US legs of our itineraries.

    A commenter above noted that anger at TSA/the USA airport experience in general seems disproportionate, given that what you're put through is really not all that different from pre-TSA days. That's true, and it's also not all that much worse -- from a big-picture perspective -- than what you get in many airports that are considered exemplary, such as Hong Kong and Singapore. Getting a flight out of HKG still requires you to be there 90-120 minutes in advance; you still need to go through all the steps you would in a US airport; you still spend lots of time cooling your heels. It's the minor aggravations -- the microaggravations, if you will -- that add up. Going through a metal detector is tolerable if you can just walk through, but it's somehow much worse to pause within it and put up your arms like a perp.

    I also think there's a simple relationship between the length of a flight and one's ability to tolerate airport hassle, i.e. I know my own tolerance for wasting a couple of hours before getting anywhere is far higher when I'm checking in for a transpacific flight than it is when we're going somewhere that's an hour away. Even though the USA is a big country, most flights are still four-five hours or less, and lots (such as Chicago-->Louisville) are very short indeed. That's a situation in which two-three hours of airport irritation for a dinky flight really gets the adrenaline pumping.

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  140. Wilkey says:
    @RadicalCenter
    Bullshit. It's not a privilege, it become a legal right when we buy the ticket.

    By the way, the airlines can either start paying for the full cost of airports (huge), which they don't now, or start treating their customers far more humanely and honestly, as in honoring their contracts and not demeaning or threatening or harming passengers who merely demand that their honor their contract.

    By the way, the airlines can either start paying for the full cost of airports (huge), which they don’t now, or start treating their customers far more humanely and honestly, as in honoring their contracts and not demeaning or threatening or harming passengers who merely demand that their honor their contract.

    Dude, so glad you know so much about the business model of running an airline. Perhaps you should call them up and offer to fix all their problems.

    Which “contract(s)” would you have them break in order to keep that one asshole with that one ticket happy? How about the ~50-100 passengers in Louisville who would be stuck there because they didn’t have a crew to fly their plane? Or maybe they should just break the law and risk passenger safety by putting a crew in the air that has run out of hours. Perhaps they should launch planes irregardless of risks due to weather, or launch planes with maintenance problems. Maybe they should keep 10 extra flight crews and five or six extra $100 million+ planes at every single airport on standby, just in case. After all, we wouldn’t want to keep Doctor Asshole from getting to Louisville. Instead let’s inconvenience a hundred other passengers and/or double the price of your airline ticket.

    Overbooked flights don’t always happen because airlines want them to. They happen because weather, maintenance, and flight crew issues delay flights, causing them to have to shift passengers with connections to later flights. It’s the minor inconvenience of a form of travel that gets us to our destinations weeks or even months faster than our ancestors would ever have dreamed of traveling.

    I already stated my preferred solution to the problem: keep raising the voucher offer until you get enough passengers to bite. Perhaps even a law to require that and airline go up to a certain minimum (e.g., $1,500) before they are allowed to forcibly bump a passenger. And i didn’t say jack shit about the TSA.

    But hey, you know everything there is to know about the airline industry, so who am I to question your judgment?

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    • Replies: @AnotherDad

    Which “contract(s)” would you have them break in order to keep that one asshole with that one ticket happy? How about the ~50-100 passengers in Louisville who would be stuck there because they didn’t have a crew to fly their plane? ...
     
    Well said Wilkey.

    I'm amazed at whatever you want to call it--"small mental universe" or "reality challenged"--of a whole bunch of commentators here. United wasn't dicking anyone around here. They were trying to get a flight crew down to Louisville to presumably replace a crew that could not fly because weather delays had pushed them past their FAA regs. (That's my best guess.)

    If you want to talk "contract", United was trying to make sure they could actually honor their "contract" with 1oo+ folks there, and not inconvenience them.

    United is able to provide pretty darn cheap and incredibly fast travel around the US and the world because they do the logistics reasonably well--keep the planes flying, schedule the crews efficiently, try and have the planes flying full. They can't control the weather. And they'll be screw-ups--there always are with transportation (as with much in life). But overall they do pretty well and here they were trying to do the right thing for the maximum number of customers, inconveniencing the fewest.

    Mature people understand that sort of thing and don't have a cow. But unfortunately we get drama queen, jerk-doc-dao who instead of accepting that he's drawn the short staw and is going to be mildly--a whopping four hour drive!--inconvenienced to benefit the passengers in Louisville, instead throws a big hissy.
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  141. @Miss Laura
    "So there are no heroes here, just a sordid rogue’s gallery of marginal players trying to scratch out a living in the sad twilight of the American empire, but streamed live and in color on your Korean cell phone."
    Give that Jack D. a column!

    I agree. That’s good stuff Jack D. “sad twilight of the American empire…. ” Right on

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  142. Wilkey says:
    @Jack D
    While the $1,350 is the cap for INVOLUNTARY denial it tends to set a cap on voluntary offers - why should the airline offer you more $ if they can just involuntarily deny you? (Why except for the possibility of a BILLION $ worth of bad publicity?) Usually they pick someone weak looking as a victim (notice that 3 out of 4 went along meekly). You're standing at the gate and you can shout all you want but they're not letting you on the plane or paying you more $. Here's your $1,350 (or less - it's 4x the ticket price), take it or leave it. This happens thousands of times and a worldwide stink has never resulted until now.

    Notice BTW that the reg says "denial of boarding" - it doesn't contemplate that they can remove you after you are already boarded and minding your own business.

    The root of the f*ck up here is that they let these people board and then when the passenger just refused to get off (which I think is actually within his legal rights) they resorted to force. When the guy said that he wasn't leaving, they should have thought of a different move but the Stanford prison experiment mentality instantly kicked in so they didn't think of this as a normal customer service interaction anymore but as "disobedience" to be countered with force.

    The root of the f*ck up here is that they let these people board and then when the passenger just refused to get off (which I think is actually within his legal rights)

    An airline doesn’t have the right to remove a passenger from their private property just because they’ve already been allowed on board? That makes zero sense. Of course they do.

    The nature of the airline industry is such that, absent some amazing feet of science and engineering, passengers will have to be bumped, sometimes against their will. Feel free to suggest an economically and scientifically feasible model in which that is not the case. The airline industry and millions of passengers are waiting to hear from you.

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    • Replies: @Jack D
    I have invented it already - it's called a "Hertz Rent-A-Car". They have one at every airport. Louisville is 4 hrs by car from Chicago. They could have stuck the 4 crew members in a car and saved a billion $ in shareholder value.

    So they can remove you at any time for any reason because it's their private property? Why do they even need that whole 50 page contract of carriage and all those Federal regulations? Shorten it up - 'The plane is our private property and we can do whatever we want to you once you step inside. Make you sit with your knees crunched against the next seat. Feed you a 1/2 ounce bag of peanuts on a 6 hour flight. You're our b*tch now." Maybe they can declare you a trespasser and shoot you while they are it it, especially if you don't leave within 30 seconds or less. What if the plane is at 8,000 ft - can they open the hatch and throw you out? Do they have to give you a parachute in that case or is that not included in the ticket price?

    Read this to see why you are wrong:

    http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2017/04/united-passenger-removal-reporting-management-fail.html

    , @bomag

    The nature of the airline industry is such that, absent some amazing feat of science and engineering, passengers will have to be bumped, sometimes against their will. Feel free to suggest an economically and scientifically feasible model in which that is not the case.
     
    Seems that there would be a multitude of ways to handle this, such as designating certain seats as "bumpable" for any reason and selling them for a slight discount, or filling them at the last moment.

    Private chartered jets don't cost that much compared to this deal.
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  143. @Anonymous
    This situation was handled so poorly. I haven't bought an airline ticket in awhile, but do airlines make their overbooking policies very clear to customers? If not, below are some (pretty obvious) suggestions.

    1. Airlines should be more up front with their overbooking policies. At the time of ticket purchase, airlines should require customers to agree to their policy for dealing with overbooked flights. This policy needs to be clearly stated, in no uncertain terms, as to what agreement with the policy actually entails. Airlines should not bury this policy in small print in a long agreement of terms that customers will not see when making a ticket purchase.

    2. Airlines need clearer protocols for dealing with passengers who refuse to abide by overbooking policies. This must also be clearly stated in customer agreement mentioned above.

    3. These policies should be clearly posted and reinforced in airline terminals.

    4. Airlines should perhaps rethink their policies of overbooking flights.

    5. Airlines should compensate passengers who are kicked off flights with an amount of compensation roughly equivalent to the often great inconvenience this causes them.

    These cheesy ‘vouchers’ are pathetic. How about some cash on the barrelhead and a decent hotel room.

    I believe that many customers feel that the airlines take them for granted. I expect for a lot of people, that their travel required considerable planning, arrangements to be away from the house and work, and plans on the other end based on assumption that the airlines will get them to their destination more-or-less when they said they would. Most fliers are not just flying around for the heck of it and with no schedules or responsibilities.

    For weather they of course compensate you nothing. OK fair enough, weather happens, how about a voucher for $100 of food and drink, or something, if it’s more than 4-5 hours?

    Of course you have a flying public that wants a first class seat for $250, wants to wear flip flops and a t-shirt in that seat, talk on their stupid phone with some moron about the cat’s toenail fungus until the flight attendant tells them for the 3rd time to turn off the damned phone, and blows their cork if they are delayed an hour. (the day cell phone conversations are allowed during the flight is the day I stop flying).

    The spoiled brat who got dragged off the plane will get rewarded. The adults who sucked it up and just got off will get nothing.

    No easy answers

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    • Replies: @Jim Don Bob

    the day cell phone conversations are allowed during the flight is the day I stop flying
     
    True dat. Airborne Hell would be complete.
    , @Brutusale
    Weather, huh?

    Back in the winter of 2011, the girlfriend and I were enjoying a week eating and drinking our way through New Orleans. The day before we were scheduled to fly back to Boston, an enormous winter storm covered half the country and basically shut down every airport north of the Mason-Dixon Line. We ended up stuck in NO for an extra two days, scrambling to find accommodations (and dinner reservations!). I can think of worse places to be stranded!

    Delta Airlines couldn't have cared less about our added expenses.

    When we finally got a flight out and connected in Atlanta, Delta's huge hub, I was flabbergasted at the traffic, though I shouldn't have been, seeing as the airlines had two days of backlog to clean up. They were launching on two runways right next to each other, a plane taking off every 15 seconds (I timed it). Our plane had barely turned onto the runway when the pilot firewalled the throttles and we were in the air. I had the window seat and could see a half-dozen planes near us. There was a lot of tin over Atlanta that day!

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/January_31_%E2%80%93_February_2,_2011_North_American_blizzard

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  144. Jack D says:
    @Jonathan Mason

    a sordid rogue’s gallery of marginal players trying to scratch out a living in the sad twilight of the American empire
     
    Brilliant!

    Of course in the dying days of Roman civilization, it must have been the same. The roads, the sewers, the brilliant engineering of the viaducts and the ports, the temples, the public baths, the stadiums did not all suddenly disappear in a puff of smoke, it must have been a slow process of cities going bankrupt, water supplies failing and becoming contaminated, bridges and potholes not being properly repaired due to revenue shortages and affirmative action for Visigoth companies, dams collapsing, stadiums closing down as the games became too expensive for local taxpayers, gladiators died off or retired to the Costa Brava and did nostalgia shows, sewers getting clogged with oyster shells and rusting chariot wheels, and so on.

    We are probably seeing the beginning of the end of the great 20th century American civilization, but the Orange Don is probably just the first of a long line of increasingly flaky hereditary Emperors whose tenure will become shorter and shorter until it is nothing unusual to have four Presidents in the same year, and none of us will live long enough to see the Last Trump.

    There are little bits and pieces in Rome that give you a clue of what it was like when things fell apart. The Portico of Octavia (in the middle of the Rome ghetto) comes to mind.

    Before:

    After:

    Originally it was adorned with foreign marble and contained many famous works of art, but it was damaged by an earthquake in 442 AD. By then, they know longer had the money/skill to replace the destroyed marble columns, so instead they held up one end of the cornice with a crude brick archway which still stands and then they used part of the ruins as a church. The portico was used as a fish market from the medieval period, and up to the end of 19th century.

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    • Replies: @res

    By then, they know longer had the money/skill to replace the destroyed marble columns, so instead they held up one end of the cornice with a crude brick archway which still stands
     
    But they still had enough money/skill to hack it in a way that has lasted over 1500 years. Still pretty impressive IMHO. Things got much worse from there...

    It is a great example for giving a clue though--thanks. The completely fallen down unmaintained buildings and infrastructure don't do that as well.
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  145. mobi says:
    @Veracitor
    Nah, they couldn't legally have gone higher (though really they ought to have done so anyway), because there is an FAA regulation (requested by the airlines, of course) setting a maximum limit to denied-boarding compensation. The airlines don't want to go higher, because word would get around, then every time they asked for volunteers people would hold out until the price got very high. So they offer some money, but not enough to get people off a Sunday night flight home when everyone has to go to work the next day, then when that predictably fails they start forcing people off.

    They also refuse to supply a ticket on the very next flight-- because that would result in a cascade of bumps, so instead they often impose a long delay on bumpees to a less-full flight, but who can wait so long?

    The airlines don’t want to go higher, because word would get around, then every time they asked for volunteers people would hold out until the price got very high.

    It occurred to me they’re doubly in trouble because they upped their initial offer from $400.

    ‘Your honor, my client quite reasonably refused to leave because he assumed, if they were willing to go from $400 to $800 when no one took the offer, they might go higher still if he held out for more.

    When he did, they beat the crap out of him.’

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    • Replies: @Hippopotamusdrome
    That would make a good parlour game of the dollar auction type. One player holds a baseball bat and offers another a sum of money. The other can either accept or refuse. The first can then either offer a higher sum or whack him with the bat.
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  146. @Jack D
    The contract, the regs, everything, all talk about "denial of boarding". There is nothing that gives an airline a right to throw a non-disruptive passenger who is already boarded and seated out of the plane so that they can fly one of their own employees instead. This is going to be a big loser for them legally so they are going to settle and for a high $ amount in order to make this go away.

    If I think about it – if I was – say: A needy doctor in some financial troubles and would know what you say here: It might be no foolish move at all to resist the airline’s attempts to get me out of the plane.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jack D
    What if that needy doctor was also a champion poker player?

    http://www.tmz.com/2017/04/11/united-airlines-doctor-david-dao-poker-player/
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  147. mobi says:
    @Twinkie

    The pilot business is operated like the acting business where pilots hope to land a gig at a major and earn a decent living but few ever do and those that don’t barely make a living. Regional carrier pilots sleep in the airline terminal or their cars because they can’t afford a motel room.
     
    I agree with the sentiment of this paragraph, but not the specifics. I have a friend who flies a regional jet for a United Express affiliate. While he isn't rich, he makes a decent, above average living for a no-name college grad, on par with a primary care doctor. But, yes, he is hoping to make his way up and, one day, fly a large jet for an international route that will lead to a decent six-figure income... on par with a specialist doctor.

    Far from sleeping in his car, he gets free rides to his origination airport from his hometown 1,300 miles away (he's on a few days and off a few days, so commutes from one city to his home base for the flights and then comes home to his family once he is off).

    Republic as a low rent operation refused to offer more than $800 to get a volunteer although they could have gone much higher. $800 is close to what they pay a pilot in a month. Cheaper to call the cops.
     
    I quoted in another thread that United's average bumping compensation is measly $500+ (third lowest in the business) while Alaska and JetBlue are on average $1600+ and $1200+ respectively.

    Chicago cops
     
    Lack of training and/or poor judgment, period. This my lengthy comment in the other thread.

    why is United getting the grief
     
    Because, essentially, United's affiliated business instigated the whole incident when it could have been handled much, much better.

    Speaking of being in no position, David Dao, the victim, has a “troubled past” as a pill doctor.
     
    In this particular episode, it doesn't matter what the man's past was. I assign a part of the blame to him for his own refusal to deplane voluntarily (again, as I stated elsewhere, comply, but indicate under duress, then work out a remedy later in a civil setting) contributing to this fiasco. But he didn't deserve to get his face bashed against an armrest, then dragged on the floor of a plane for his obstinacy.

    Sort of ironic that the Chinaman is now getting whites addicted to opium instead of vice versa – cosmic revenge I guess.
     
    That was the British. So it's not cosmic or a revenge at all.

    So there are no heroes here, just a sordid rogue’s gallery of marginal players trying to scratch out a living in the sad twilight of the American empire, but streamed live and in color on your Korean cell phone.
     
    This should be the masthead for this blog.

    On the other hand, things are rarely as bad as they seem (or as great as they seem when things go well). America is not preordained to doom. There are many contingencies that can lead to a glorious renewal.

    Indeed, there are stories with heroes in them (some even involving air travel), but then they make things go well and we never hear about those stories. Don't forget the selection bias of the media business in general. All bad news.

    That was the British. So it’s not cosmic or a revenge at all.

    A distinction likely lost on Chinese netizens, apparently enraged that the good (Vietnamese) doctor was targeted because he was ‘Asian’.

    Because Yellow, not white, in other words.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Lurker
    I've often wondered if the whole airline business wasn't a crock.

    Assorted hidden and sort-of subsidies to plane builders, to airlines, to airports. The measures budget airlines take to try and save a few ounces weight or trim any frills. Its desperate.

    And pilots like to fly, no wonder there is an over supply.

    A few years ago my brother used to help out at a local riding stables. The deal was if you helped out with grooming, cleaning etc you got horse rides. The whole operation was kept going because lots of youngsters (mostly girls) like horses. It's a cash poor business, the owners love horses too, it's hardly a money making exercise.

    Anyhow, not long ago a friend and I were walking the dog at the local airfield and came upon a young guy working on one of the small WW2-era hangers. Painting etc. It had been derelict for years.

    We asked him what was the plan for the hanger, was it going to be used for planes or something else? Good news - it was intended for aircraft and he told us that the more unpaid work he did, the more flying hours from the resident flying school. Now where had I heard of this arrangement before? Again, cash poor, exploiting the trainee flyers love of flying. And the hand-to-mouth flying school operation gets something out of it too.

    , @Marina
    He is probably (ethnically) Chinese. The educated elites in a lot of Southeast Asian countries skew very heavily Chinese, to the resentment of the non-Chinese natives. They are pretty long-standing communities too, not just in Vietnam, but Malaysia and Cambodia and Indonesia and most other countries in the region. Thomas Sowell says the Chinese in Southeast Asia are similar to the Jews in Europe in an earlier era. The PRC encourages ties with the diaspora communities and encourages them to continue to view themselves as Chinese and, like the Jews, they tend to be disinclined to marry the natives where they reside.
    , @Daniel Chieh
    He was almost certainly Chinese. There are a number of facial characteristics.
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  148. Jack D says:
    @Wilkey
    The root of the f*ck up here is that they let these people board and then when the passenger just refused to get off (which I think is actually within his legal rights)

    An airline doesn't have the right to remove a passenger from their private property just because they've already been allowed on board? That makes zero sense. Of course they do.

    The nature of the airline industry is such that, absent some amazing feet of science and engineering, passengers will have to be bumped, sometimes against their will. Feel free to suggest an economically and scientifically feasible model in which that is not the case. The airline industry and millions of passengers are waiting to hear from you.

    I have invented it already – it’s called a “Hertz Rent-A-Car”. They have one at every airport. Louisville is 4 hrs by car from Chicago. They could have stuck the 4 crew members in a car and saved a billion $ in shareholder value.

    So they can remove you at any time for any reason because it’s their private property? Why do they even need that whole 50 page contract of carriage and all those Federal regulations? Shorten it up – ‘The plane is our private property and we can do whatever we want to you once you step inside. Make you sit with your knees crunched against the next seat. Feed you a 1/2 ounce bag of peanuts on a 6 hour flight. You’re our b*tch now.” Maybe they can declare you a trespasser and shoot you while they are it it, especially if you don’t leave within 30 seconds or less. What if the plane is at 8,000 ft – can they open the hatch and throw you out? Do they have to give you a parachute in that case or is that not included in the ticket price?

    Read this to see why you are wrong:

    http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2017/04/united-passenger-removal-reporting-management-fail.html

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wilkey
    I have invented it already – it’s called a “Hertz Rent-A-Car”. They have one at every airport. Louisville is 4 hrs by car from Chicago. They could have stuck the 4 crew members in a car and saved a billion $ in shareholder value.

    Four hours 42 minutes (plus pit stops) per Google. Can't go any faster, that would risk their safety and break the law. The passengers in Louisville will be delayed 5+ hous (or longer, if they miss connecting flights). And if the pilots are considered to be on duty during this trip (as they should be) they will probably be out of hours and unable to fly. Nice try, though.

    I'm not saying I think their decision was correct from a business or even ethical standpoint, but legally I don't think there's any question that they're in the right. They didn't remove him from the flight on a whim. They removed him for a legitimate business need that is simply impossible, using current technology, to resolve in another manner.
    , @AnotherDad


    So they can remove you at any time for any reason because it’s their private property? ...
    What if the plane is at 8,000 ft – can they open the hatch and throw you out? Do they have to give you a parachute in that case or is that not included in the ticket price?
     
    Jack, this is so far off your usual standard it's ridiculous.

    "Strawman" pretty much covers it.

    How about the simple standard that exists pretty much everywhere else. If you're in my house and ask you to leave--leave. In a store or restaurant and they decide not to serve you and ask you to leave--leave. And if you don't leave someone's property when they ask you--then yeah, they can try and bodily remove you, and certainly call the cops.

    The restaurant example--another service business--is pretty informative. And yeah, if they decide they don't want to serve you and want you out--you don't pay! Because this is transportation and there is a bunch of hassle, in the airline biz you don't just get your money back, but are actually entitled to eventually get transported there and get 4x your ticket in compensation.
    , @Anonymous
    Better idea: the squadron hack.

    In RAF parlance, the "squadron hack" in a fighter or bomber squadron is a liaison or trainer aircraft used for odd jobs, pilot currency training, and VIP use. USAF and USN squadrons called it something different, but they all had one. In "A Gathering of Eagles" Rock Hudson clambers into the squadron hack, a T-33, to formate up with and inspect the B-52 that has just had a big internal fuel flood. The ADC squadron at the local, now long since shuttered base (operating the Deuce and Six, and briefly Phantoms) had a couple of T-birds AND a twin engine Convair transport/navigator trainer for these tasks.

    In the airline world, in the sixties several US airlines had a variety of small GA aircraft for similar tasks, ranging from the ridiculous Ercoupe for crosswind training for pilots transitioning from Connies to the 707 and DC-8, to cabin class twins. Some foreign airlines flying only long distance routes own Lears or Falcons so that aircrews can get in a certain number of landings in a month in a crew operated jet without tying up a revenue aircraft and for ten percent of the fuel burn to do it. If this operator had had a King Air or even a Piper Aztec for such parts runs and crew hops they could have got the crew there for costs not much more than a rent-a-car. But again, this is only feasible in an environment with comfortable operating margins and aviators and not MBAs running things.
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  149. mobi says:
    @Loveofknowledge
    I agree totally. I hate seeing squeaky wheels get oiled.

    If I got bumped off a flight, I would just think "oh, that sucks" and go hit the airport bar. That's because I'm a grownup.

    It would never in a million years occur to me to just say "no, I'm not going" like a spoiled, entitled, self-centered, bratty, petulant two-year-old.

    This guy is not a sympathetic victim. Maybe getting bashed in the head will have knocked some much-needed sense into him.

    He owes the airline and other passengers an apology. He should say "sorry I acted like a jerk and necessitated you calling security to physically remove me from the plane."

    We put up with so much nonsense anymore. You get more of what you tolerate and reward and encourage.

    He owes the airline and other passengers an apology. He should say “sorry I acted like a jerk and necessitated you calling security to physically remove me from the plane.”

    Perhaps, but the fact that he’s Asian secures his victimhood beyond reproach.

    Above even the brutality angle, he’s got the narrative on his side.

    Read More
    • Replies: @OFWHAP
    I'm wondering how much sympathy Brock Turner would receive if he were on the receiving end of all this instead of Dr. Dao.
    , @Loveofknowledge
    Yeah, I wondered what the reaction would have been if it was a young rednecky white guy instead of an old Asian guy. Would people be just be laughing and thinking what a jackass? I'm sure some people would still be upset out of general anti-authority sentiment and/or specific bad feelings toward airlines from past experiences. I think it almost certainly would not have been such a big news story. Everything seems to come back to race.

    I also saw in the business news that United could lose business in China. Will U.S. corporations now feel that they need to be extra deferential to Asian-Americans, even if they're belligerent, out of fear of offending the huge Chinese market? That would end up being an extraordinary privilege that Asian-Americans would enjoy, which seems like it could breed resentment among white, black, and hispanic Americans who don't have a big foreign power in their corner all the time.
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  150. AnAnon says:
    @Anonymous
    People don't realize how poorly paid most pilots are. There are more pilots than there are jobs, so the competition for spots at the major airlines is intense. But enough pilots are willing to work for the regional carriers --keeping the dream alive that they will someday land a good job-- that the industry can get away with paying them next to nothing.

    You see an almost perfect parallel in higher education. People spend the best years of their lives making 15k a year as grad-student teaching assistants (or even less as adjuncts), hoping that a college will hire them for a real job someday.

    http://100rsns.blogspot.com/2014/10/94-it-warps-your-expectations.html

    How many industries work this way?

    And remember that there are still 94 million unemployed Americans.

    “How many industries work this way?” – All of them until labor scarcity is brought back.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jack D
    Yes, yes, yes. The condition of the working man always improved mainly in conditions of labor scarcity - after the Black Plague, after major wars, etc. The number we are losing to the White Death is nothing compared to increases from immigration and people thrown out of work due to industry moving overseas.

    In the nakedcapitalism.com thread, one of the things that they mention is that not only was the flight itself "outsourced" but United "outsources" all sorts of other services at the airport (baggage handling, gate agent, refueling, etc.) in order to get them out from under their union. The contracts are rebid annually and the new bidder (if the employees are lucky) offers to hire the employees of the former contractor (or originally of United) but each time they are rehired their wages go down until they are making close to minimum wage. Or else they can be unemployed or make equally little $ at Wal-Mart. So what was once a middle class job is now barely enough to live on, but United makes $3 billion/ yr and the CEO takes home tens of millions. And if they don't want to to that, some Wall St. speculator will buy their stock and force them to sink to the lowest common denominator.

    Marx predicted that the proletariat would be immiserated due to the "reserve army of the unemployed at the factory gates" who would always be willing to work for less. Eventually the workers would decide that they had "nothing to lose but their chains" and overthrow the capitalists. For a long time, it seemed like he was wrong but maybe he was right about this after all.
    , @Art Deco
    And remember that there are still 94 million unemployed Americans.

    No, there are 94 million people not working for all the reasons people are not working in any era. The median employment-to-population ratios for the following years are these:

    1948: 0.566
    1958: 0.554
    1968: 0.575
    1978: 0.5935
    1988: 0.623
    1998: 0.64
    2008: 0.623
    2017: 0.60
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  151. I meant to comment favourably on this comment where it appeared.

    So there are no heroes here, just a sordid rogue’s gallery of marginal players trying to scratch out a living in the sad twilight of the American empire, but streamed live and in color on your Korean cell phone.

    This line is inspired. Kudos.

    Read More
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  152. Jack D says:
    @Dieter Kief
    If I think about it - if I was - say: A needy doctor in some financial troubles and would know what you say here: It might be no foolish move at all to resist the airline's attempts to get me out of the plane.

    What if that needy doctor was also a champion poker player?

    http://www.tmz.com/2017/04/11/united-airlines-doctor-david-dao-poker-player/

    Read More
    • LOL: Johann Ricke
    • Replies: @Dieter Kief
    Bingo!
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  153. @Art Deco
    The pilot business is operated like the acting business where pilots hope to land a gig at a major and earn a decent living but few ever do and those that don’t barely make a living. Regional carrier pilots sleep in the airline terminal or their cars because they can’t afford a motel room. But for United, live by the sword, die by the sword – they lent their name out to Republic so now they have to live with the PR blowback from what Republic did with it.

    Republic as a low rent operation refused to offer more than $800 to get a volunteer although they could have gone much higher. $800 is close to what they pay a pilot in a month. Cheaper to call the cops.

    There are some poorly compensated pilots for regional carriers, but the mean annual salary for pilots and flight engineers is about $131,000 per year. With regard to airline pilots, those compensated at the 10th percentile are earning $65,000 per year. For generic commercial pilots, the 10th percentile are earning just shy of $40,000. Quite modest, but nowhere near $10,000 per year as your correspondent states.

    There are some poorly compensated pilots for regional carriers, but the mean annual salary for pilots and flight engineers is about $131,000 per year. With regard to airline pilots, those compensated at the 10th percentile are earning $65,000 per year. For generic commercial pilots, the 10th percentile are earning just shy of $40,000. Quite modest, but nowhere near $10,000 per year as your correspondent states.

    From Buffalo Joe’s air disaster reference:

    NTSB investigators calculated Shaw was paid just over $16,000. Colgan officials testified that captains such as Renslow earn about $55,000 a year. The company later said Shaw’s salary was $23,900 and that captains earn about $67,000.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Old Palo Altan
    I knew a man who retired in 1983 as a senior captain with United. His final salary was $120,000.
    Does anyone here know what a senior captain with United makes 34 years later?
    , @Art Deco
    You all seem to think that Labor Department wage and salary data are invalid or irrelevant because you discovered a young c0-pilot on a flight which crashed in Buffalo who was paid some paltry sum. I'm not sure why you all think this.
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  154. Lurker says:
    @Barnard
    How do they get anyone to fly planes for $20k a year? You can make more at any number of menial jobs with a fraction of the stress level.

    Most (all?) pilots like flying!

    The over supply of qualified pilots is not some temporary glitch while they all fight for the top spots. Many of them would be happy to just make a living and get to fly.

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  155. @wren
    All this time I assumed Twinkie was Asian.

    You don’t get it. He’s an honorary white person.

    However, I do have to wonder what part of Christianity resonates with Asians or whether they are genetically a strain of people who are closest to strongly Christian whites … selection is an interesting sieve of Eratosthenes …

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    There's some body of work that suggests that Confucianism has set the stage for a full blown progressiveness outbreak that's just waiting to happen, of which Christianity resonated heavily with it. A few things to consider, for example:

    * Confucianism largely refuses traditional kinship and promotes a certain kind of individual recognition. Its not the Western definition of individuality, but it strongly emphasizes merit as defined through academia.

    "The worth of a man is discovered through education."

    * Confucian scholars preached cultural identification, not ethnic identification. This included othering those of Han ethnicity if they did not practice "Chinese customs" defined as Confucian.

    "If the feudal lords practice Yi customs, then they should be called Yi. If the feudal lords practice Chinese customs ,then they should be called Chinese [no matter what their ethnicity is]"

    * Confucianism preaches compassion as an important, perhaps even overriding, principle. While it hasn't quite gone this far, you already see Western Confucianists such as Daniel A Bell suggesting that this means that the government should be composed of primarily women and "sensitive gays"; he's refuted by a female Confucian scholar(and government official) who replies that there are proper roles which require women to serve a role but never be dominant. And that the Confucian emphasis on family makes gay men inappropriate for more than a minor government representation(because they would not be able to relate to the presumably dominant heterosexuals).

    Nonetheless, there's another an angle of attack for progressives to use.

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  156. Jack D says:
    @AnAnon
    And remember that there are still 94 million unemployed Americans.

    "How many industries work this way?" - All of them until labor scarcity is brought back.

    Yes, yes, yes. The condition of the working man always improved mainly in conditions of labor scarcity – after the Black Plague, after major wars, etc. The number we are losing to the White Death is nothing compared to increases from immigration and people thrown out of work due to industry moving overseas.

    In the nakedcapitalism.com thread, one of the things that they mention is that not only was the flight itself “outsourced” but United “outsources” all sorts of other services at the airport (baggage handling, gate agent, refueling, etc.) in order to get them out from under their union. The contracts are rebid annually and the new bidder (if the employees are lucky) offers to hire the employees of the former contractor (or originally of United) but each time they are rehired their wages go down until they are making close to minimum wage. Or else they can be unemployed or make equally little $ at Wal-Mart. So what was once a middle class job is now barely enough to live on, but United makes $3 billion/ yr and the CEO takes home tens of millions. And if they don’t want to to that, some Wall St. speculator will buy their stock and force them to sink to the lowest common denominator.

    Marx predicted that the proletariat would be immiserated due to the “reserve army of the unemployed at the factory gates” who would always be willing to work for less. Eventually the workers would decide that they had “nothing to lose but their chains” and overthrow the capitalists. For a long time, it seemed like he was wrong but maybe he was right about this after all.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Bill Jones
    And yet for all Marx's drivel White Christian Capitalist Countries have the richest, healthiest, longest lived and happiest people on the planet.

    That's why keeping the wogs out is a problem.

    http://worldhappiness.report/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2017/03/HR17-ESv2_updated.pdf
    , @Johann Ricke

    So what was once a middle class job is now barely enough to live on, but United makes $3 billion/ yr
     
    United reported net income of $6b, in total, for the last 10 years, off a revenue base of $305b. 2% is a grocery store margin. In the down years, shareholders and bond investors eat the losses, either via debt writedowns, stock dilution or the cancellation of equity via Chapter 11 bankruptcy. In the up years, the airline unions get big pay hikes. Note that these lousy margins were achieved despite United's emergence from bankruptcy in 2006, complete with a much-improved balance sheet.

    Airline pilots are glamorous. Airline companies are just a bottomless money pit. Executives have to keep costs down, not because they learned their trade from Ebenezer Scrooge, but because the alternative is the fate of Pan Am and TWA. That this results in the occasional tragicomic scenario worthy of a Carl Hiaasen passage is merely Murphy's Law in action. Note that all three of the majors (Delta, American, United) have zeroed out their shareholders in bankruptcy proceedings, so financial stress isn't just an issue at United.

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  157. Lurker says:
    @mobi

    That was the British. So it’s not cosmic or a revenge at all.
     
    A distinction likely lost on Chinese netizens, apparently enraged that the good (Vietnamese) doctor was targeted because he was 'Asian'.

    Because Yellow, not white, in other words.

    I’ve often wondered if the whole airline business wasn’t a crock.

    Assorted hidden and sort-of subsidies to plane builders, to airlines, to airports. The measures budget airlines take to try and save a few ounces weight or trim any frills. Its desperate.

    And pilots like to fly, no wonder there is an over supply.

    A few years ago my brother used to help out at a local riding stables. The deal was if you helped out with grooming, cleaning etc you got horse rides. The whole operation was kept going because lots of youngsters (mostly girls) like horses. It’s a cash poor business, the owners love horses too, it’s hardly a money making exercise.

    Anyhow, not long ago a friend and I were walking the dog at the local airfield and came upon a young guy working on one of the small WW2-era hangers. Painting etc. It had been derelict for years.

    We asked him what was the plan for the hanger, was it going to be used for planes or something else? Good news – it was intended for aircraft and he told us that the more unpaid work he did, the more flying hours from the resident flying school. Now where had I heard of this arrangement before? Again, cash poor, exploiting the trainee flyers love of flying. And the hand-to-mouth flying school operation gets something out of it too.

    Read More
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  158. OFWHAP says:
    @mobi

    He owes the airline and other passengers an apology. He should say “sorry I acted like a jerk and necessitated you calling security to physically remove me from the plane.”
     
    Perhaps, but the fact that he's Asian secures his victimhood beyond reproach.

    Above even the brutality angle, he's got the narrative on his side.

    I’m wondering how much sympathy Brock Turner would receive if he were on the receiving end of all this instead of Dr. Dao.

    Read More
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  159. Marina says:
    @mobi

    That was the British. So it’s not cosmic or a revenge at all.
     
    A distinction likely lost on Chinese netizens, apparently enraged that the good (Vietnamese) doctor was targeted because he was 'Asian'.

    Because Yellow, not white, in other words.

    He is probably (ethnically) Chinese. The educated elites in a lot of Southeast Asian countries skew very heavily Chinese, to the resentment of the non-Chinese natives. They are pretty long-standing communities too, not just in Vietnam, but Malaysia and Cambodia and Indonesia and most other countries in the region. Thomas Sowell says the Chinese in Southeast Asia are similar to the Jews in Europe in an earlier era. The PRC encourages ties with the diaspora communities and encourages them to continue to view themselves as Chinese and, like the Jews, they tend to be disinclined to marry the natives where they reside.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anon
    "The PRC encourages ties with the diaspora communities and encourages them to continue to view themselves as Chinese and, like the Jews, they tend to be disinclined to marry the natives where they reside."

    That may be because Chinese look down on SE Asian natives as inferior.
    But Chinese seem to have no problem intermarrying with whites whom they regard as superior.
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  160. Anon says: • Disclaimer

    http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/936731.shtml

    http://www.traveller.com.au/the-unfriendly-skies-chinese-passengers-outrageous-behaviour-2fkej

    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-kal-safety-idUSKBN14G02M?il=0

    http://onemileatatime.boardingarea.com/2014/12/11/why-is-korean-airs-nutgate-causing-so-much-controversy/

    Maybe the thing about Asians is they are less good at improvisation or picking up signals.

    In an environment with established hierarchy, they know what is what and act accordingly based on social expectations and rules.

    But in an environment where the relations aren’t so sure and when everything is ‘up in the air’ or in a state of flux, Asians get confused. This lack of certainty and insecurity makes them act blunt than smooth. And they overreact to things.
    Their emotions are more solid than fluid in such moments. They are not adaptive.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jenner Ickham Errican
    Good insight.
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  161. @Father O'Hara
    As I understand it,an Iranian joo,er,Jew named Sassoon was the driving force behind getting opium into the hands of those eager Chinese. (What with being coolies all day,you can't blame them for looking for a little fun.)
    Sassoon was the son of the top Jew in Iran,sort of the Jared Kushner of his day. When the government fell,Sassoon left for greener pastures. The Crown was looking to trade with China,but not with gold. Sassoon offered them a different currency.
    Victoria,who once asserted re female homosexuality,"women don't do that sort of thing",seemed to feel that getting a whole bunch of Chinese hooked on dope WAS doable,and the coolies could be enticed to do THAT thing.
    "Why do you think they call it dope?",she purportedly asked.
    Sassoon set up the opium business,leaving his other imports(like cotton) behind.Many other jewish families joined in. The power of the British navy protected the trade. Sassoons slogan,"Just Dont Say No",became ubiquitous among the poor.
    This would make a good movie,with Leo perhaps as Sassoon?

    As I understand it,an Iranian joo,er,Jew named Sassoon was the driving force behind getting opium into the hands of those eager Chinese.

    This retconning of current mores to those of almost 2 centuries ago is misleading. At the time of the conflict, opium was legal throughout the rest of the world, including all of the West and its overseas holdings. And the Chinese only targeted imports. The weak domestic variety was left alone. Imperial Chinese propaganda pointed to opium as the source of China’s problems despite the fact that Chinese communities around the world had unfettered access to opium and yet thrived in material terms wherever they were. The key was getting out from under Chinese rule.

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    • Replies: @Peripatetic commenter

    This retconning of current mores to those of almost 2 centuries ago is misleading. At the time of the conflict, opium was legal throughout the rest of the world, including all of the West and its overseas holdings. And the Chinese only targeted imports. The weak domestic variety was left alone. Imperial Chinese propaganda pointed to opium as the source of China’s problems despite the fact that Chinese communities around the world had unfettered access to opium and yet thrived in material terms wherever they were. The key was getting out from under Chinese rule.
     
    That must be why Singapore is such a success while allowing all sorts of drugs and perversions.

    Oh wait.

    No, the fact that it is run by the Chinese must be why Singapore is such an abject failure.

    Oh wait.

    Third time lucky perhaps.

    Could it be that the problem during the Qing dynasty was that China was controlled by a foreign and hostile elite? Is there a lesson there for our time?
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  162. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Marina
    He is probably (ethnically) Chinese. The educated elites in a lot of Southeast Asian countries skew very heavily Chinese, to the resentment of the non-Chinese natives. They are pretty long-standing communities too, not just in Vietnam, but Malaysia and Cambodia and Indonesia and most other countries in the region. Thomas Sowell says the Chinese in Southeast Asia are similar to the Jews in Europe in an earlier era. The PRC encourages ties with the diaspora communities and encourages them to continue to view themselves as Chinese and, like the Jews, they tend to be disinclined to marry the natives where they reside.

    “The PRC encourages ties with the diaspora communities and encourages them to continue to view themselves as Chinese and, like the Jews, they tend to be disinclined to marry the natives where they reside.”

    That may be because Chinese look down on SE Asian natives as inferior.
    But Chinese seem to have no problem intermarrying with whites whom they regard as superior.

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  163. Lurker says:
    @Art Deco
    The pilot business is operated like the acting business where pilots hope to land a gig at a major and earn a decent living but few ever do and those that don’t barely make a living. Regional carrier pilots sleep in the airline terminal or their cars because they can’t afford a motel room. But for United, live by the sword, die by the sword – they lent their name out to Republic so now they have to live with the PR blowback from what Republic did with it.

    Republic as a low rent operation refused to offer more than $800 to get a volunteer although they could have gone much higher. $800 is close to what they pay a pilot in a month. Cheaper to call the cops.

    There are some poorly compensated pilots for regional carriers, but the mean annual salary for pilots and flight engineers is about $131,000 per year. With regard to airline pilots, those compensated at the 10th percentile are earning $65,000 per year. For generic commercial pilots, the 10th percentile are earning just shy of $40,000. Quite modest, but nowhere near $10,000 per year as your correspondent states.

    the mean annual salary for pilots and flight engineers

    I didn’t know there were any flight engineers anymore? Sure, there maybe a few still on older planes, but most commercial aircraft are built around a two-pilot crew and have been for years now.

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    • Replies: @Jim Don Bob
    Lauber told me about one occasion, when he entered a Boeing 727 cockpit at a gate before the captain arrived, and the flight engineer said, “I suppose you’ve been in a cockpit before.”

    “Well, yes.”

    “But you may not be aware that I’m the captain’s sexual adviser.”

    “Well, no, I didn’t know that.”

    “Yeah, because whenever I speak up, he says, ‘If I want your fucking advice, I’ll ask for it.’ ”
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  164. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Daniel Chieh
    For what it is worth, at least when I grew up, the Chinese pretty clearly distinguish the British as guilty and not "whites." I was taught that while various European nations did indeed divide up China, the British were the most guilty and the Germans the most innocuous. In a fairly recent visit to China, the government-run museums seems to carry a similar line.

    “I was taught that while various European nations did indeed divide up China, the British were the most guilty and the Germans the most innocuous.”

    Germans were quite ruthless in putting down in Chinese rebellions. But maybe their gift of beer was more welcome than opium.

    I think the anti-British animus is partly real(and maybe justified) but also partly due to the fact that Chinese gained a lot under the British. British led the way in opening China, and that made modernization possible. Brits did much to build up Shanghai. British model of development in Singapore and HK offered much good advice to mainland as a whole. To admit the positive side of British influence would be embarrassing. So, they stress only the Evil Side.

    But blacks are the same way. To admit that they gained anything from whites would be embarrassing. So, they act like total victims.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Well the Germans are out of Tsingtao and the British out of Hong Kong, but the Russians are still in Vladivostok. Do modern Chinese even know that much of eastern Russia once belonged to them?
    , @Bill Jones
    The opium trade was the (East India Company's) answer to the British tea addiction. The one way flow of money to China for tea was a real threat to the GBP that had to be addressed, ultimately, of course by Indian tea.
    Best to keep the money within the Empire, don't you know?
    , @Daniel Chieh
    Well, the British destroyed a huge quantity of history and infrastructure, not the least being the intentional destruction of the Summer Palace.

    On the other hand, the Germans tended to play the "good cop", perhaps to balance their rivals in England but I also agree with the notion that there was something about the Germanic personality that was a better match for communication as a whole with the Chinese. All in all, the Germans were notably restrained in conduct in China and unlike the others.

    Regardless of why, there was a significant history of Sino-Germany cooperation; one of my grandfathers served in those German-trained battalions as well.

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  165. @mobi

    That was the British. So it’s not cosmic or a revenge at all.
     
    A distinction likely lost on Chinese netizens, apparently enraged that the good (Vietnamese) doctor was targeted because he was 'Asian'.

    Because Yellow, not white, in other words.

    He was almost certainly Chinese. There are a number of facial characteristics.

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    • Replies: @mobi

    He was almost certainly Chinese. There are a number of facial characteristics
     
    Educated in Ho Chi Minh City, in the 70's.

    Quite possibly ethnic-Chinese Vietnamese.

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  166. Lurker says:
    @Daniel H
    A few years ago there was a plane crash in Buffalo New York. The airline was one of these regional carriers. Turns out the co-pilot, a young lady, was moonlighting at Starbucks or something like it. She was barely making above minimum wage as a pilot.

    I don't know how much experience she and the pilot had but on approach they mishandled a simple stall, doing precisely contrary to operating procedure when a stall hits. The pilot pulled up, bringing the nose higher in the air, worsening the stall, overriding computer warnings and the action of the throttle which automatically starts to dive, when he should have pushed the nose down and given the engines all they had. If he had done that, they would have been fine. How much did lack of experience, flying sporadically, taking part-time gigs when offered contribute to this crash? Hmmm.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colgan_Air_Flight_3407

    Just reading about that crash. The Capt. had been on a pay to fly program at some point.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pay_to_fly

    Thats how bad things in the airline business! Not just unpaid interns but paying to work.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    As unbelievable as all this sounds, it's true. Many people want to fly for a living, more than the number of actual pilot slots there are, so these schemes leverage this desire by taking advantage of the situation. The other problem is that general aviation has become so expensive that people who used to simply fly for a hobby decide the only way to fly is to get a job doing it.

    In countries where there is no GA except for the _very_ wealthy, airlines hire pilot candidates with no flying skills or experience whatsoever and train them from scratch. This actually works pretty well, but it is expensive, so in the US, schemes like this abound.

    The best solution would be for the government in the US to have a program similar to the Russian DOSAAF and provide accessible flight instruction for young people. The Civil Air Patrol used to do this to an extent, but has become pretty worthless since the 1980s.
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  167. @Jack D
    What if that needy doctor was also a champion poker player?

    http://www.tmz.com/2017/04/11/united-airlines-doctor-david-dao-poker-player/

    Bingo!

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  168. Jack D says:
    @HEL

    The contract, the regs, everything, all talk about “denial of boarding”. There is nothing that gives an airline a right to throw a non-disruptive passenger who is already boarded and seated out of the plane so that they can fly one of their own employees instead.
     
    Yeah, that phrase could be interpreted as saying once you're physically on the plane you can't be bumped. And it could also be argued that removing someone from a plane during the boarding phase is also a denial of boarding. I've never seen anyone point to any evidence of this regulation actually being interpreted to say that setting foot on the plane makes you unbumpable. I'd imagine it would've come up during this whole controversy if there were any such evidence. Nor is there any rational reason why merely stepping inside the plane should end the possibility of being bumped. So I suspect the "set foot in cabin and you're home free" interpretation is nonsense.

    But, let's assume you're right, the regulation really does mean to draw setting foot in the cabin as some sort of definitive line. Does Dao have the right to demand to remain on the plane? Nope. United can breach their contract. They'll be liable to him in court, certainly, but you can't coerce people into performing service contracts for you. So sorry, he doesn't have the right to demand to stay on regardless.

    Maybe it was a failure of vision on the contract writers/ reg writers part (the regs get written by airline industry lobbyist lawyers too) but up until this week, everyone envisioned that the bumping process takes place at the gate BEFORE they let you on the plane, so they don’t seem to cover getting “bumped” after you have already boarded. After this they will probably close that loophole, but you can’t infer something into the law that doesn’t exist just because it makes sense. God knows the airlines have plenty of lawyers who could have written this in if they wanted to, but they didn’t (yet). They also cover “overbooking” for other passengers with confirmed reservations but don’t say anything about being allowed to bump you for their own deadheading crew. Again, maybe they can fix this to their advantage in the future but that’s not what it says now.

    Breaching the contract was one thing. Using an arm of the government as their goons to enforce a civil contract is something else. If you don’t pay your cable bill, can Comcast send the cops to beat you unconscious or not yet?

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    • Replies: @Clark Westwood

    Breaching the contract was one thing. Using an arm of the government as their goons to enforce a civil contract is something else. If you don’t pay your cable bill, can Comcast send the cops to beat you unconscious or not yet?
     
    If you can't use the government to help you enforce your contract, you don't have much of a contract (unless you're Al Capone).
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  169. mobi says:
    @Daniel Chieh
    He was almost certainly Chinese. There are a number of facial characteristics.

    He was almost certainly Chinese. There are a number of facial characteristics

    Educated in Ho Chi Minh City, in the 70′s.

    Quite possibly ethnic-Chinese Vietnamese.

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  170. @Anonym
    In LA, every waitress is a struggling actress.

    Blogging is another such activity.

    You would think our host would be content with being perhaps the only professional blogger in the world, but living in LA even he has dabbled in the entertainment industry, right?

    I was shacked up with one in NYC who described herself as an “AMW”

    Actress, Model, Waitress.

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  171. @Just some cop
    I might be wrong, but the guy who actually goes hands on with the passenger doesn't look like a cop. I thought maybe airport security.

    Also, having tried to remove people from confined spaces (busses and cars) I can say it's way, way harder than you might think. Tons of stuff for the guy to hold onto and/or hit himself on, very hard to get leverage, impossible to get more than one person in there, etc.

    I'm not saying the decision to go hands on was good (it wasn't), but insofar as the physical act is not at all unlike a sports play, I can tell you that most cops regard "they should have done it better / they need better training" comments just as athletes regard advice from observers who have never played, studied, or carefully watched the sport they're talking about.

    Thank you sir. We need more comments like this one from experts in their fields. There is really far too much windbaggery around here these days.

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    • Agree: Jim Don Bob
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  172. @Please Correct the Record
    It's looking like there are two Drs. David Dao. The one who was disaccommodated is not the one with the checkered past.

    https://twitter.com/_ClaireConnelly/status/852036052286033921

    The Dao that is spoken about is not the true Dao.

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    • Replies: @Stebbing Heuer
    Thankyou Calvinist.

    Steve, I don't know if this is true or not. I was just riffing off the Tao Te Ching.
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  173. It seems to me that reverse auctions would work better in situations like this. Instead of the airline making an offer, seeing who (if anyone) takes it, and then raising the offer if needed, have the passengers bid how much they would take to be bumped. The price of bumping should start high and then get progressively lower until people stop bidding.

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  174. @Johann Ricke

    There are some poorly compensated pilots for regional carriers, but the mean annual salary for pilots and flight engineers is about $131,000 per year. With regard to airline pilots, those compensated at the 10th percentile are earning $65,000 per year. For generic commercial pilots, the 10th percentile are earning just shy of $40,000. Quite modest, but nowhere near $10,000 per year as your correspondent states.
     
    From Buffalo Joe's air disaster reference:

    NTSB investigators calculated Shaw was paid just over $16,000. Colgan officials testified that captains such as Renslow earn about $55,000 a year. The company later said Shaw's salary was $23,900 and that captains earn about $67,000.
     

    I knew a man who retired in 1983 as a senior captain with United. His final salary was $120,000.
    Does anyone here know what a senior captain with United makes 34 years later?

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  175. @Jack D
    Maybe it was a failure of vision on the contract writers/ reg writers part (the regs get written by airline industry lobbyist lawyers too) but up until this week, everyone envisioned that the bumping process takes place at the gate BEFORE they let you on the plane, so they don't seem to cover getting "bumped" after you have already boarded. After this they will probably close that loophole, but you can't infer something into the law that doesn't exist just because it makes sense. God knows the airlines have plenty of lawyers who could have written this in if they wanted to, but they didn't (yet). They also cover "overbooking" for other passengers with confirmed reservations but don't say anything about being allowed to bump you for their own deadheading crew. Again, maybe they can fix this to their advantage in the future but that's not what it says now.

    Breaching the contract was one thing. Using an arm of the government as their goons to enforce a civil contract is something else. If you don't pay your cable bill, can Comcast send the cops to beat you unconscious or not yet?

    Breaching the contract was one thing. Using an arm of the government as their goons to enforce a civil contract is something else. If you don’t pay your cable bill, can Comcast send the cops to beat you unconscious or not yet?

    If you can’t use the government to help you enforce your contract, you don’t have much of a contract (unless you’re Al Capone).

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  176. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Anon
    "I was taught that while various European nations did indeed divide up China, the British were the most guilty and the Germans the most innocuous."

    Germans were quite ruthless in putting down in Chinese rebellions. But maybe their gift of beer was more welcome than opium.

    I think the anti-British animus is partly real(and maybe justified) but also partly due to the fact that Chinese gained a lot under the British. British led the way in opening China, and that made modernization possible. Brits did much to build up Shanghai. British model of development in Singapore and HK offered much good advice to mainland as a whole. To admit the positive side of British influence would be embarrassing. So, they stress only the Evil Side.

    But blacks are the same way. To admit that they gained anything from whites would be embarrassing. So, they act like total victims.

    Well the Germans are out of Tsingtao and the British out of Hong Kong, but the Russians are still in Vladivostok. Do modern Chinese even know that much of eastern Russia once belonged to them?

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    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
    Oh, they know alright. And in the long run, it's not good for the Russians that they know.
    , @Daniel Chieh
    To my knowledge, the Chinese are well aware, but mostly don't care. "Sea Cucumber Bay" was pretty pitiful, the Russians have done well for themselves there. Good for them.
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  177. There’s always someone talking about razor thin margins in the industry but ignoring that large airline CEOs make 3b or so a year.

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  178. @Veracitor
    Nah, they couldn't legally have gone higher (though really they ought to have done so anyway), because there is an FAA regulation (requested by the airlines, of course) setting a maximum limit to denied-boarding compensation. The airlines don't want to go higher, because word would get around, then every time they asked for volunteers people would hold out until the price got very high. So they offer some money, but not enough to get people off a Sunday night flight home when everyone has to go to work the next day, then when that predictably fails they start forcing people off.

    They also refuse to supply a ticket on the very next flight-- because that would result in a cascade of bumps, so instead they often impose a long delay on bumpees to a less-full flight, but who can wait so long?

    The usual ticket fine print refers to “denial of boarding” if the flight is overbooked.

    That was not the case here.

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  179. @CrunchybutRealistCon
    Bonin, the Air France crash pilot probably thot his Airbus would fly like an X-wing Fighter in outer space. Gravity had other ideas.
    Tbh, it probably means that Air France didn't do adequate crisis simulation testing in the simulator. The Swiss Air MD11 crash was another doozie. Instead of just getting landed asap, they studied an 80 page manual for fine detail while the fire spread and eventually burned thru their control wiring.
    As per all the grandstanding for high principle in this United event, it would be more efficient just to concede that commercial air travel has become a dystopian chore. Best avoided or kept to a minimum.

    On the Air France flight the pitot tubes clogged with ice which turned off the autopilot and made the instruments give incorrect info. The pilot pulled up to counter turbulence and the plane was soon climbing at 7000 fpm with the engines running at 100% while its airspeed had dropped to 60mph. The angle of attack reached 40 degrees which was outside the computers “understanding” so there was no stall warning. The stall continued for the next 3 1/2 minutes as the plane fell from 38000 feet and hit the ocean.

    The two yokes were not mechanically linked so the second pilot had no cue that the third younger more inexperienced pilot was pulling back as hard as he could, and the yoke of the third pilot overrode that of the second pilot.

    More here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_447 and here: http://www.vanityfair.com/news/business/2014/10/air-france-flight-447-crash

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    • Replies: @CrunchybutRealistCon
    I've read about the Air France incident extensively. Yes, the airspeed data was bad, but the altimeter data was ok, and that is the rub. Part of his initial reaction was understandable. What wasn't acceptable was his boyish "pull up" Star Wars response *AFTER* the stall warnings began. Yes it is true that the stall warning turned off after the data got so extreme, but Bonin's most unforgivable mistake was not letting go of his stick, after the #2 pilot was trying to save it by putting the nose down around 10,000 ft. Bonin kept his panic grip on his stick, still pulling back, and cancelling out the #2s forward action. The pilot should have told him, to get his Fu*&^ing hand off the stick. Why a 32 yr old naif was in charge of a Jumbo in the middle of a storm - Insane lack of protocol. And Airbus's "Joystick" control is dumb - too sensitive, and its angle position is not obvious enough to from a few feet away.
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  180. @wren
    All this time I assumed Twinkie was Asian.

    The LA Times says: We smeared the right man, so suck it!

    http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-united-david-dao-20170412-story.html

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  181. Wilkey says:
    @Jack D
    I have invented it already - it's called a "Hertz Rent-A-Car". They have one at every airport. Louisville is 4 hrs by car from Chicago. They could have stuck the 4 crew members in a car and saved a billion $ in shareholder value.

    So they can remove you at any time for any reason because it's their private property? Why do they even need that whole 50 page contract of carriage and all those Federal regulations? Shorten it up - 'The plane is our private property and we can do whatever we want to you once you step inside. Make you sit with your knees crunched against the next seat. Feed you a 1/2 ounce bag of peanuts on a 6 hour flight. You're our b*tch now." Maybe they can declare you a trespasser and shoot you while they are it it, especially if you don't leave within 30 seconds or less. What if the plane is at 8,000 ft - can they open the hatch and throw you out? Do they have to give you a parachute in that case or is that not included in the ticket price?

    Read this to see why you are wrong:

    http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2017/04/united-passenger-removal-reporting-management-fail.html

    I have invented it already – it’s called a “Hertz Rent-A-Car”. They have one at every airport. Louisville is 4 hrs by car from Chicago. They could have stuck the 4 crew members in a car and saved a billion $ in shareholder value.

    Four hours 42 minutes (plus pit stops) per Google. Can’t go any faster, that would risk their safety and break the law. The passengers in Louisville will be delayed 5+ hous (or longer, if they miss connecting flights). And if the pilots are considered to be on duty during this trip (as they should be) they will probably be out of hours and unable to fly. Nice try, though.

    I’m not saying I think their decision was correct from a business or even ethical standpoint, but legally I don’t think there’s any question that they’re in the right. They didn’t remove him from the flight on a whim. They removed him for a legitimate business need that is simply impossible, using current technology, to resolve in another manner.

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    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
    The employees should wait for another means of getting where they want to go, and the paying customer should get what he paid for.

    It's the airline's responsibility to get its employees where they need to go for work purposes, without flouting the paying customer's eminently reasonable expectation that he will get what he paid for and will not be shunted aside in favor of the employees whose jobs he makes possible.
    , @Jack D
    The crew needed to be moved to Louisville for a flight THE NEXT DAY. Does that change your answer?
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  182. @Buck Turgidson
    5. Airlines should compensate passengers who are kicked off flights with an amount of compensation roughly equivalent to the often great inconvenience this causes them.

    These cheesy 'vouchers' are pathetic. How about some cash on the barrelhead and a decent hotel room.

    I believe that many customers feel that the airlines take them for granted. I expect for a lot of people, that their travel required considerable planning, arrangements to be away from the house and work, and plans on the other end based on assumption that the airlines will get them to their destination more-or-less when they said they would. Most fliers are not just flying around for the heck of it and with no schedules or responsibilities.

    For weather they of course compensate you nothing. OK fair enough, weather happens, how about a voucher for $100 of food and drink, or something, if it's more than 4-5 hours?

    Of course you have a flying public that wants a first class seat for $250, wants to wear flip flops and a t-shirt in that seat, talk on their stupid phone with some moron about the cat's toenail fungus until the flight attendant tells them for the 3rd time to turn off the damned phone, and blows their cork if they are delayed an hour. (the day cell phone conversations are allowed during the flight is the day I stop flying).

    The spoiled brat who got dragged off the plane will get rewarded. The adults who sucked it up and just got off will get nothing.

    No easy answers

    the day cell phone conversations are allowed during the flight is the day I stop flying

    True dat. Airborne Hell would be complete.

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  183. @Just some cop
    I might be wrong, but the guy who actually goes hands on with the passenger doesn't look like a cop. I thought maybe airport security.

    Also, having tried to remove people from confined spaces (busses and cars) I can say it's way, way harder than you might think. Tons of stuff for the guy to hold onto and/or hit himself on, very hard to get leverage, impossible to get more than one person in there, etc.

    I'm not saying the decision to go hands on was good (it wasn't), but insofar as the physical act is not at all unlike a sports play, I can tell you that most cops regard "they should have done it better / they need better training" comments just as athletes regard advice from observers who have never played, studied, or carefully watched the sport they're talking about.

    The place for the enforcement of contracts is the civil court system.

    Not some overweight, over paid moron in a government clown suit.

    Did the buffoon know the details of the ticket’s restrictions?

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    • Replies: @Art Deco
    Not some overweight, over paid moron in a government clown suit.

    Otherwise known as an airport security officer doing his job.

    Sailer's comboxes attract a choice crowd.
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  184. @Lurker

    the mean annual salary for pilots and flight engineers
     
    I didn't know there were any flight engineers anymore? Sure, there maybe a few still on older planes, but most commercial aircraft are built around a two-pilot crew and have been for years now.

    Lauber told me about one occasion, when he entered a Boeing 727 cockpit at a gate before the captain arrived, and the flight engineer said, “I suppose you’ve been in a cockpit before.”

    “Well, yes.”

    “But you may not be aware that I’m the captain’s sexual adviser.”

    “Well, no, I didn’t know that.”

    “Yeah, because whenever I speak up, he says, ‘If I want your fucking advice, I’ll ask for it.’ ”

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  185. @RadicalCenter
    Sounded like Rod was saying that he avoids flying due to the abuse by police, TSA, and airline bullies.

    There is nothing that people do that has more government involved in it than flying.
    Of course it’s fucked up.

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  186. @Anon
    "I was taught that while various European nations did indeed divide up China, the British were the most guilty and the Germans the most innocuous."

    Germans were quite ruthless in putting down in Chinese rebellions. But maybe their gift of beer was more welcome than opium.

    I think the anti-British animus is partly real(and maybe justified) but also partly due to the fact that Chinese gained a lot under the British. British led the way in opening China, and that made modernization possible. Brits did much to build up Shanghai. British model of development in Singapore and HK offered much good advice to mainland as a whole. To admit the positive side of British influence would be embarrassing. So, they stress only the Evil Side.

    But blacks are the same way. To admit that they gained anything from whites would be embarrassing. So, they act like total victims.

    The opium trade was the (East India Company’s) answer to the British tea addiction. The one way flow of money to China for tea was a real threat to the GBP that had to be addressed, ultimately, of course by Indian tea.
    Best to keep the money within the Empire, don’t you know?

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    • Replies: @Anon
    If Brits loved tea and if China only sold but didn't buy, why not grow tea elsewhere?

    Didn't they grow tea in India?

    Did Brits buy tea from China to use that as excuse to open China's market?

    I mean it couldn't have been so difficult to take some tea plants and grow them in Africa or India and bypass China as supplier.
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  187. @Wilkey
    By the way, the airlines can either start paying for the full cost of airports (huge), which they don’t now, or start treating their customers far more humanely and honestly, as in honoring their contracts and not demeaning or threatening or harming passengers who merely demand that their honor their contract.

    Dude, so glad you know so much about the business model of running an airline. Perhaps you should call them up and offer to fix all their problems.

    Which "contract(s)" would you have them break in order to keep that one asshole with that one ticket happy? How about the ~50-100 passengers in Louisville who would be stuck there because they didn't have a crew to fly their plane? Or maybe they should just break the law and risk passenger safety by putting a crew in the air that has run out of hours. Perhaps they should launch planes irregardless of risks due to weather, or launch planes with maintenance problems. Maybe they should keep 10 extra flight crews and five or six extra $100 million+ planes at every single airport on standby, just in case. After all, we wouldn't want to keep Doctor Asshole from getting to Louisville. Instead let's inconvenience a hundred other passengers and/or double the price of your airline ticket.

    Overbooked flights don't always happen because airlines want them to. They happen because weather, maintenance, and flight crew issues delay flights, causing them to have to shift passengers with connections to later flights. It's the minor inconvenience of a form of travel that gets us to our destinations weeks or even months faster than our ancestors would ever have dreamed of traveling.

    I already stated my preferred solution to the problem: keep raising the voucher offer until you get enough passengers to bite. Perhaps even a law to require that and airline go up to a certain minimum (e.g., $1,500) before they are allowed to forcibly bump a passenger. And i didn't say jack shit about the TSA.

    But hey, you know everything there is to know about the airline industry, so who am I to question your judgment?

    Which “contract(s)” would you have them break in order to keep that one asshole with that one ticket happy? How about the ~50-100 passengers in Louisville who would be stuck there because they didn’t have a crew to fly their plane? …

    Well said Wilkey.

    I’m amazed at whatever you want to call it–”small mental universe” or “reality challenged”–of a whole bunch of commentators here. United wasn’t dicking anyone around here. They were trying to get a flight crew down to Louisville to presumably replace a crew that could not fly because weather delays had pushed them past their FAA regs. (That’s my best guess.)

    If you want to talk “contract”, United was trying to make sure they could actually honor their “contract” with 1oo+ folks there, and not inconvenience them.

    United is able to provide pretty darn cheap and incredibly fast travel around the US and the world because they do the logistics reasonably well–keep the planes flying, schedule the crews efficiently, try and have the planes flying full. They can’t control the weather. And they’ll be screw-ups–there always are with transportation (as with much in life). But overall they do pretty well and here they were trying to do the right thing for the maximum number of customers, inconveniencing the fewest.

    Mature people understand that sort of thing and don’t have a cow. But unfortunately we get drama queen, jerk-doc-dao who instead of accepting that he’s drawn the short staw and is going to be mildly–a whopping four hour drive!–inconvenienced to benefit the passengers in Louisville, instead throws a big hissy.

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    • Agree: Jim Don Bob
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  188. @Jack D
    Yes, yes, yes. The condition of the working man always improved mainly in conditions of labor scarcity - after the Black Plague, after major wars, etc. The number we are losing to the White Death is nothing compared to increases from immigration and people thrown out of work due to industry moving overseas.

    In the nakedcapitalism.com thread, one of the things that they mention is that not only was the flight itself "outsourced" but United "outsources" all sorts of other services at the airport (baggage handling, gate agent, refueling, etc.) in order to get them out from under their union. The contracts are rebid annually and the new bidder (if the employees are lucky) offers to hire the employees of the former contractor (or originally of United) but each time they are rehired their wages go down until they are making close to minimum wage. Or else they can be unemployed or make equally little $ at Wal-Mart. So what was once a middle class job is now barely enough to live on, but United makes $3 billion/ yr and the CEO takes home tens of millions. And if they don't want to to that, some Wall St. speculator will buy their stock and force them to sink to the lowest common denominator.

    Marx predicted that the proletariat would be immiserated due to the "reserve army of the unemployed at the factory gates" who would always be willing to work for less. Eventually the workers would decide that they had "nothing to lose but their chains" and overthrow the capitalists. For a long time, it seemed like he was wrong but maybe he was right about this after all.

    And yet for all Marx’s drivel White Christian Capitalist Countries have the richest, healthiest, longest lived and happiest people on the planet.

    That’s why keeping the wogs out is a problem.

    http://worldhappiness.report/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2017/03/HR17-ESv2_updated.pdf

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  189. @Anonymous
    Well the Germans are out of Tsingtao and the British out of Hong Kong, but the Russians are still in Vladivostok. Do modern Chinese even know that much of eastern Russia once belonged to them?

    Oh, they know alright. And in the long run, it’s not good for the Russians that they know.

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  190. @Wilkey
    I have invented it already – it’s called a “Hertz Rent-A-Car”. They have one at every airport. Louisville is 4 hrs by car from Chicago. They could have stuck the 4 crew members in a car and saved a billion $ in shareholder value.

    Four hours 42 minutes (plus pit stops) per Google. Can't go any faster, that would risk their safety and break the law. The passengers in Louisville will be delayed 5+ hous (or longer, if they miss connecting flights). And if the pilots are considered to be on duty during this trip (as they should be) they will probably be out of hours and unable to fly. Nice try, though.

    I'm not saying I think their decision was correct from a business or even ethical standpoint, but legally I don't think there's any question that they're in the right. They didn't remove him from the flight on a whim. They removed him for a legitimate business need that is simply impossible, using current technology, to resolve in another manner.

    The employees should wait for another means of getting where they want to go, and the paying customer should get what he paid for.

    It’s the airline’s responsibility to get its employees where they need to go for work purposes, without flouting the paying customer’s eminently reasonable expectation that he will get what he paid for and will not be shunted aside in favor of the employees whose jobs he makes possible.

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  191. @Jack D
    Yes, yes, yes. The condition of the working man always improved mainly in conditions of labor scarcity - after the Black Plague, after major wars, etc. The number we are losing to the White Death is nothing compared to increases from immigration and people thrown out of work due to industry moving overseas.

    In the nakedcapitalism.com thread, one of the things that they mention is that not only was the flight itself "outsourced" but United "outsources" all sorts of other services at the airport (baggage handling, gate agent, refueling, etc.) in order to get them out from under their union. The contracts are rebid annually and the new bidder (if the employees are lucky) offers to hire the employees of the former contractor (or originally of United) but each time they are rehired their wages go down until they are making close to minimum wage. Or else they can be unemployed or make equally little $ at Wal-Mart. So what was once a middle class job is now barely enough to live on, but United makes $3 billion/ yr and the CEO takes home tens of millions. And if they don't want to to that, some Wall St. speculator will buy their stock and force them to sink to the lowest common denominator.

    Marx predicted that the proletariat would be immiserated due to the "reserve army of the unemployed at the factory gates" who would always be willing to work for less. Eventually the workers would decide that they had "nothing to lose but their chains" and overthrow the capitalists. For a long time, it seemed like he was wrong but maybe he was right about this after all.

    So what was once a middle class job is now barely enough to live on, but United makes $3 billion/ yr

    United reported net income of $6b, in total, for the last 10 years, off a revenue base of $305b. 2% is a grocery store margin. In the down years, shareholders and bond investors eat the losses, either via debt writedowns, stock dilution or the cancellation of equity via Chapter 11 bankruptcy. In the up years, the airline unions get big pay hikes. Note that these lousy margins were achieved despite United’s emergence from bankruptcy in 2006, complete with a much-improved balance sheet.

    Airline pilots are glamorous. Airline companies are just a bottomless money pit. Executives have to keep costs down, not because they learned their trade from Ebenezer Scrooge, but because the alternative is the fate of Pan Am and TWA. That this results in the occasional tragicomic scenario worthy of a Carl Hiaasen passage is merely Murphy’s Law in action. Note that all three of the majors (Delta, American, United) have zeroed out their shareholders in bankruptcy proceedings, so financial stress isn’t just an issue at United.

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  192. Moshe says:
    @joeyjoejoe
    Nobody's going to remember it because its essentially irrelevant. Those regional carriers may not be United, but they are essentially controlled by United. None of those passengers bought a ticket on 'Republic' Airline. They bought it on United. If there were problems in the terminal, nobody goes to the 'Republic Airline' desk for help. They go to United. It is likely that their ticket said 'United Airline,' and they, of they cared at all, learned that it was 'Republic Airline' when they got on the plane.

    If you don't live at a major hub, you fly those regional airlines every single time you fly.

    Its irrelevant how much the pilots are paid. In fact, being bumped by an airline for a low-paid peon makes the whole situation worse; not better. Will my travel plans be cancelled next time because a cleaning lady for the airport bathroom is late for a Bat Mitzvah?

    Its irrelevant who called the cops: the point is that the cops were called.

    Its also less relevant that the cops misbehaved. The point is that the cops were called.

    Its also irrelevant that the doctor was a pill-pusher, or once cheated on his taxes, or was once caught picking his nose in public. The point is, he (like any of us could be) was treated the way he was.

    So the whole post is a collection of irrelevant facts. But, it had a witty final sentence, so I can see why you fell for it.

    joeyjoejoe

    Aside for your witty final sentence I agree. (For the record, Steve fell for it because he doesn’t fly much and also because he defers to police way more than many of us do. I don’t think he’s the shallow sort who would fall for a good line.)

    I do however think that the police problem on display was bigger than the airline one.

    We have granted authorities total control at the airport and on the airplane and this sort of thing is the obvious result.

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  193. @Jack D
    The contract, the regs, everything, all talk about "denial of boarding". There is nothing that gives an airline a right to throw a non-disruptive passenger who is already boarded and seated out of the plane so that they can fly one of their own employees instead. This is going to be a big loser for them legally so they are going to settle and for a high $ amount in order to make this go away.

    The contract, the regs, everything, all talk about “denial of boarding”. There is nothing that gives an airline a right to throw a non-disruptive passenger who is already boarded and seated out of the plane so that they can fly one of their own employees instead. This is going to be a big loser for them legally so they are going to settle and for a high $ amount in order to make this go away.

    You’re probably right about it being a big loser–because a lot of people are stupid and emotional and trial lawyers love to empanel jurys of such idiots. But this is why people hate lawyers.

    There is absolutely *zero* functional difference between denial on or off the plane. The functional issue is can they take you on the trip? (United had a very good reason for why they could not do that for four passengers–a plane full of customers in Louisville waiting for a crew.) You may *feel* that it’s “your seat” once you plot you butt into it. But it’s not. It’s still United’s seat on United’s plane.

    (Personally I’ve never considered anything about flying to be even *partially* final until they close the cabin door. That’s a hint the passenger list *may* be finalizing and perhaps AnotherMom and I will be able to share that empty seat. But even then a few times I’ve seen the door reopened. Once we went back to the gate and deplaned.)

    But now I now … the airline cedes its rights to its plane upon “boarding”.

    So tell me Jack when exactly does this “ensoulment”–”enboardment”?–occur?

    Is it when they scan my boarding pass–then they can’t bump me? Is it when I cross through the boarding door and enter the jetway? Is it when I actually step onto the plane? Or do I actually have to take my seat? Hey, what happens if I’ve sat down … but i’m in the *wrong* seat? I see people doing that all the time. I sometimes do it myself intentionally when I think the plane isn’t full and i’m hanging back toward the end of the boarding. Can the airline take me off if they’ve let me on but i’m not sitting in my correct seat?

    I just want to know when exactly the airline loses its property rights and I become master and commander of my airplane seat?

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    • Replies: @Jack D
    Read Rule 21 of the Contract of Carriage which lists 31 reasons for which you may be ejected (including being barefoot (Rule 21 (H) (5) and pregnant (Rule 21 (H) (12) - sexist pigs!) or have malodorous condition (other than individuals qualifying as disabled!); but needing your seat for one of their employees is not one of them.

    https://www.united.com/web/en-US/content/contract-of-carriage.aspx#sec21

    , @Jack D
    FYI, even United has moved past your position now. Munoz said today:

    "He was a paying passenger sitting in our aircraft. No one should be treated that way"

    Munoz also said United already has decided it will no longer call on law enforcement to remove passengers from oversold flights once on board.

    "To remove a booked, paid, seating passenger, we can't do that," he said.

    Maybe you should tell Munoz he's wrong and that Gestapo tactics really ARE the best way to run an airline, which is after all the sacred personal property of a corporation which is a type of person.
    , @bomag

    But now I know … the airline cedes its rights to its plane upon “boarding”.
     
    We are in an age of 'ceding our rights'; from baking a cake to supporting our choice of political cause, we are pretty much told what to do by some handlers.
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  194. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @CrunchybutRealistCon
    Bonin, the Air France crash pilot probably thot his Airbus would fly like an X-wing Fighter in outer space. Gravity had other ideas.
    Tbh, it probably means that Air France didn't do adequate crisis simulation testing in the simulator. The Swiss Air MD11 crash was another doozie. Instead of just getting landed asap, they studied an 80 page manual for fine detail while the fire spread and eventually burned thru their control wiring.
    As per all the grandstanding for high principle in this United event, it would be more efficient just to concede that commercial air travel has become a dystopian chore. Best avoided or kept to a minimum.

    Bad engineering, bad piloting and bad weather all helped to take down the the Air France plane. The pitot tube flaw should have been spotted and corrected of course, but this wouldn’t have mattered if an experienced pilot had been at the controls, or if the weather had been better. The novice pilot flew directly into a big storm. Basic piloting error. Other aircraft in the vicinity flew around it, but AF447 went straight in and never came out.

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  195. @Anon
    "I was taught that while various European nations did indeed divide up China, the British were the most guilty and the Germans the most innocuous."

    Germans were quite ruthless in putting down in Chinese rebellions. But maybe their gift of beer was more welcome than opium.

    I think the anti-British animus is partly real(and maybe justified) but also partly due to the fact that Chinese gained a lot under the British. British led the way in opening China, and that made modernization possible. Brits did much to build up Shanghai. British model of development in Singapore and HK offered much good advice to mainland as a whole. To admit the positive side of British influence would be embarrassing. So, they stress only the Evil Side.

    But blacks are the same way. To admit that they gained anything from whites would be embarrassing. So, they act like total victims.

    Well, the British destroyed a huge quantity of history and infrastructure, not the least being the intentional destruction of the Summer Palace.

    On the other hand, the Germans tended to play the “good cop”, perhaps to balance their rivals in England but I also agree with the notion that there was something about the Germanic personality that was a better match for communication as a whole with the Chinese. All in all, the Germans were notably restrained in conduct in China and unlike the others.

    Regardless of why, there was a significant history of Sino-Germany cooperation; one of my grandfathers served in those German-trained battalions as well.

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    • Replies: @Anon
    "Well, the British destroyed a huge quantity of history and infrastructure, not the least being the intentional destruction of the Summer Palace."

    Did they really? I read some place that Chinese have not been very good at preserving their own culture. And under Mao's cultural revolution, sheesh.

    As for the destruction of summer palace, the French did that too. But it was just a Manchu neverland of vanity and luxury.

    Also, British intrusion laid the grounds for Chinese liberation from the Manchus.

    Brits ended Moghul Empire in India. And Western Imperialism led to Chinese nationalism that finally brought down Manchu rule and rise of China as republic.

    A good primer on Anglo and Sino is NOBLE HOUSE. Lots of lessons there.

    The real mess happened when the Japanese came invading.

    , @Jim Don Bob

    Well, the British destroyed a huge quantity of history and infrastructure, not the least being the intentional destruction of the Summer Palace.
     
    You forgot to mention why: (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Summer_Palace#Destruction)

    In mid-September, two envoys, Henry Loch and Harry Parkes went ahead of the main force under a flag of truce to negotiate with Prince Yi and representatives of the Qing Empire at Tongzhou (Tungchow). After a day of talks, they and their small escort of British and Indian troopers (including two British envoys and Thomas William Bowlby, a journalist for The Times) were taken prisoner by the Qing general Sengge Rinchen. They were taken to the Ministry of Justice (or Board of Punishments) in Beijing, where they were confined and tortured. Parkes and Loch were returned after two weeks, with 14 other survivors. 20 British, French and Indian captives died. Their bodies were barely recognizable.[3]
     
    Good for the British.
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  196. @Anonymous
    Well the Germans are out of Tsingtao and the British out of Hong Kong, but the Russians are still in Vladivostok. Do modern Chinese even know that much of eastern Russia once belonged to them?

    To my knowledge, the Chinese are well aware, but mostly don’t care. “Sea Cucumber Bay” was pretty pitiful, the Russians have done well for themselves there. Good for them.

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  197. Moshe says:
    @celt darnell

    Sort of ironic that the Chinaman is now getting whites addicted to opium instead of vice versa – cosmic revenge I guess.
     

    That was the British. So it’s not cosmic or a revenge at all.
     
    Yeah, but don't you get it, Twinkie? As a white person, you're guilty of all the crimes all white people have committed throughout history.

    This is why you're guilty of the crimes of the Third Reich even if your father or grandfather fought under Patton.

    I think Twinkie is yellow

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    • Replies: @Twinkie

    I think Twinkie is yellow
     
    See for yourself: https://s3.amazonaws.com/liberty-uploads/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/2014/07/twinkies.jpg
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  198. @Jack D
    I have invented it already - it's called a "Hertz Rent-A-Car". They have one at every airport. Louisville is 4 hrs by car from Chicago. They could have stuck the 4 crew members in a car and saved a billion $ in shareholder value.

    So they can remove you at any time for any reason because it's their private property? Why do they even need that whole 50 page contract of carriage and all those Federal regulations? Shorten it up - 'The plane is our private property and we can do whatever we want to you once you step inside. Make you sit with your knees crunched against the next seat. Feed you a 1/2 ounce bag of peanuts on a 6 hour flight. You're our b*tch now." Maybe they can declare you a trespasser and shoot you while they are it it, especially if you don't leave within 30 seconds or less. What if the plane is at 8,000 ft - can they open the hatch and throw you out? Do they have to give you a parachute in that case or is that not included in the ticket price?

    Read this to see why you are wrong:

    http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2017/04/united-passenger-removal-reporting-management-fail.html

    So they can remove you at any time for any reason because it’s their private property? …
    What if the plane is at 8,000 ft – can they open the hatch and throw you out? Do they have to give you a parachute in that case or is that not included in the ticket price?

    Jack, this is so far off your usual standard it’s ridiculous.

    “Strawman” pretty much covers it.

    How about the simple standard that exists pretty much everywhere else. If you’re in my house and ask you to leave–leave. In a store or restaurant and they decide not to serve you and ask you to leave–leave. And if you don’t leave someone’s property when they ask you–then yeah, they can try and bodily remove you, and certainly call the cops.

    The restaurant example–another service business–is pretty informative. And yeah, if they decide they don’t want to serve you and want you out–you don’t pay! Because this is transportation and there is a bunch of hassle, in the airline biz you don’t just get your money back, but are actually entitled to eventually get transported there and get 4x your ticket in compensation.

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    • Replies: @Johann Ricke

    The restaurant example–another service business–is pretty informative. And yeah, if they decide they don’t want to serve you and want you out–you don’t pay! Because this is transportation and there is a bunch of hassle, in the airline biz you don’t just get your money back, but are actually entitled to eventually get transported there and get 4x your ticket in compensation.
     
    The difference between a restaurant and an airline ticket is fairly obvious. When denied service, you can simply go to the restaurant next door. The compensation offered by the airline doesn't cover the cost of an alternative flight to your destination that gets you there by the same time. Apart from being out of pocket and the hassle of booking an overpriced ticket with another airline for the same evening, you probably have to spend another hour going through check-out and check-in procedures.

    Not everyone's traveling for pleasure. Being bumped meant this passenger was going to lose an entire workday. Doctors rely on repeat business. Patients who are inconvenienced can choose to take their business elsewhere.
    , @Jack D
    Airlines are a highly regulated environment. Next time you have to agree to a 50 page contract in order to buy a hamburger let me know. Yet somehow in this 50 page contract they covered how you could be denied boarding if there was overbooking (but not if they needed your seat for their own employees), how you could be ejected for B.O., and all sorts of other things, but they didn't say you could be ejected after you were boarded so that they could replace you with their employees. Why bother with this 50 page contract (plus all those Federal regs) if they can throw you out any time for any reason?
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  199. What I find interesting here is that the other passengers seem to have been on Dao’s side. It doesn’t mean he was right, but it does seem to indicate that his pre-seizure demeanor was more likely calm-but-firm rather than loud-and-crazy. If he had been the drama queen posited by many above, the other passengers would likely have turned against him. (I assume his crazy behavior afterwards was the result of his head injury.)

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  200. Moshe says:
    @Jack D
    That's right - as soon as you set foot in the airport, "for your safety" you have surrendered your rights as an American citizen and now you are more like someone who has been arrested and placed in the county jail. You are subjected to searches, you have to follow the arbitrary demands of those in charge, etc. Except in jail you get a free baloney sandwich and your cell is bigger.

    This is one of the corrosive effects of terrorism. "For our safety" we are stripped of our rights as citizens in more and more places.

    BTW, even in the 50 page long "contract of carriage" that no one ever reads and that you "agree" to even though you can't negotiate a word of it (look up "contract of adhesion") it talks about being "denied boarding" due to overbooking, etc. Nowhere does it say that they have the right to eject you from your seat once you are boarded just so they can put someone else in your seat. The guy became "disruptive" AFTER they asked him to leave, which they had no right to do in the 1st place.

    Yes.

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  201. The Dao that is spoken about is not the true Dao.

    Not in English, anyway. The first consonant is neither our T nor our D, but an unaspirated T, which only appears within words in English, eg, stop. Or at the end, eg, flashlight.

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    • Replies: @Jack D
    United lost their way.
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  202. @Flip
    I put most of the blame on the passenger. When the Chicago police tell you to get off the plane, you get off the plane. Most people I know would have voluntarily complied.

    Yes, most people would have complied. What would I have done? Complied and got off the plane. But I don’t take any pride in that. I wish I could say that I would do something noble and heroic but I don’t know what that would be even assuming that I was brave enough to do it. Practically speaking, there is not much you can really do that would have any kind of a desirable result.

    I just don’t see why so many commenters here think that there is some great honor in obeying thuggish cops or minor functionaries of a corporation that is screwing you. We tend to see through all of the SJW, multi-culti, PC stuff but buy all of the crap that it’s O.K. to get screwed by big corporations like the airlines because they only throw people off of flights every once in a while and only when it’s really, really important for their employees to get to the next airport.

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  203. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Daniel Chieh
    Well, the British destroyed a huge quantity of history and infrastructure, not the least being the intentional destruction of the Summer Palace.

    On the other hand, the Germans tended to play the "good cop", perhaps to balance their rivals in England but I also agree with the notion that there was something about the Germanic personality that was a better match for communication as a whole with the Chinese. All in all, the Germans were notably restrained in conduct in China and unlike the others.

    Regardless of why, there was a significant history of Sino-Germany cooperation; one of my grandfathers served in those German-trained battalions as well.

    “Well, the British destroyed a huge quantity of history and infrastructure, not the least being the intentional destruction of the Summer Palace.”

    Did they really? I read some place that Chinese have not been very good at preserving their own culture. And under Mao’s cultural revolution, sheesh.

    As for the destruction of summer palace, the French did that too. But it was just a Manchu neverland of vanity and luxury.

    Also, British intrusion laid the grounds for Chinese liberation from the Manchus.

    Brits ended Moghul Empire in India. And Western Imperialism led to Chinese nationalism that finally brought down Manchu rule and rise of China as republic.

    A good primer on Anglo and Sino is NOBLE HOUSE. Lots of lessons there.

    The real mess happened when the Japanese came invading.

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    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    Also, British intrusion laid the grounds for Chinese liberation from the Manchus.

     

    The Chinese Han aren't really as ethnocentric as some think - the Manchus had the Mandate of Heaven and were for all practical purposes, Chinese. They adopted the Imperial exam, their courts had Neoconfucianists, and as the Chinese considered it, they had become tong hua or assimilated(the literal word is "changed to become the same").

    Whether the ruling Manchu caste thought the same may not have been true(and it doesn't look like it these days, as Manchus tend to be the SJWs of China), but the Han certainly had largely accepted it, and to this day, there's no major issue with admiring for, example, Qianlong Emperor. The Chinese tend to protest the fu bi nature of the late Qing - corruption and decadence - but through that same incompetence, they would have been toppled sooner or later. Lost the Mandate of Heaven, so to speak.


    And Western Imperialism led to Chinese nationalism that finally brought down Manchu rule and rise of China as republic.
     
    As noted, Chinese nationalism wasn't the same as Han nationalism. It only became more it as it became clear that the Qing were not up to the task, though.

    That said, contact with the West made China stronger. This is acknowledged and largely, Chinese attitudes toward the West these days are colored not by a sense of "give me gibs" but the Darwinian survival of "the West taught us what we deserve for being weak." Which is a great lesson to take, but just because you're stronger because you've been abused, doesn't mean that you'll need to love the abuser.

    At any rate, this returns to the original point which was to refute the notion that the Chinese considered whites as single block. They don't. Rightly or wrong, the British were seen as fond of coalition-building and hypocritical abstract principles, which they then used to bludgeon the weaker for selfish gain; no one else really gets the same degree of dislike, even close to it. The French are an odd case - the Germans seem to have passed on their contempt to the Chinese; it hard to hate someone seen as being essentially weak. The Germans actually are regarded quite favorably, and the Russians are the "hairy brothers" who are essentially extended family you're stuck dealing with for the rest of eternity, for better or worse. And there's quite a bit of gratitude for the Americans for their role against the Japanese, balanced against the geopolitical realities of today.


    And under Mao’s cultural revolution, sheesh.
     
    The Cultural Revolution was a disaster, as was the Great Leap Forward. It may have ruined China and fundamentally changed the characteristic of the population, forever. But at the end of the day, the Chinese forgive intra-kin conflict(and which also is why the Russians are given pretty free pass despite the long history of border conflicts).
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  204. @Mark Spahn (West Seneca, NY)
    The videos taken by multiple passengers show that the disaccommodated passenger was not wearing an undershirt. How common is this? What percentage of men do not wear an undershirt? Or maybe this passenger was following a simplification of the saying "Don't wear dirty underwear while traveling; you might be in an accident and get taken to a hospital where your dirty underwear will be revealed."

    Clark Gable laid waste to the undershirt industry when he removed his shirt only to expose his bare torso in that movie,where they stay in a motel room and put up a sheet between them. I want to say his co star was Claudia Colbert? No relation to the other Colbert,I hope.
    (It was ‘It Happened One Night.’ Big deal at the time.
    The ‘umble t-shirt was rejected,facing partial redemption as a sweaty symbol of lust and rage a la Brando.
    It wasn’t til the 60s that the t shirt rose to glory as a real shirt. Mere underwear no more!)
    Note:Speaking of the “sheet scene”,when Ivanka and Jared had their honeymoon,putting up a sheet was not a barrier to love,but a conduit! The Jews have intercourse thru a hole in the sheet. Maybe the Gable/Colbert scene would be a turn on to Kushner. Was Gable an anti-semite?

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  205. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Bill Jones
    The opium trade was the (East India Company's) answer to the British tea addiction. The one way flow of money to China for tea was a real threat to the GBP that had to be addressed, ultimately, of course by Indian tea.
    Best to keep the money within the Empire, don't you know?

    If Brits loved tea and if China only sold but didn’t buy, why not grow tea elsewhere?

    Didn’t they grow tea in India?

    Did Brits buy tea from China to use that as excuse to open China’s market?

    I mean it couldn’t have been so difficult to take some tea plants and grow them in Africa or India and bypass China as supplier.

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    • Replies: @With the thoughts you'd be thinkin
    They were only able to bypass the Chinese post-war as most countries generally try to protect their industries. The man who did it Robert Fortune also found that the Chinese were adulterating the tea with Prussian Blue and Plaster.

    http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/the-great-british-tea-heist-9866709/
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Fortune
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  206. Great insights there from JackD.

    But…

    1. If those were Chicago cops that pulled Dr Dao away, why weren’t they in uniform?

    2. $800 would be an above-average bribe from a major airline on a coast-to-coast flight. And this was just Chicago to Louisville.

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    • Replies: @Jack D
    You never heard of plainclothes cops? But it turns out they were not Chicago PD but security agents of the Chicago airport authority, another arm of the Chicago gov't. Airports in NYC region have Port Authority Police, not NYC/Newark cops.

    The bribe was not big enough for anyone to bite. It was a Sunday, the flight they were offering (which was NOT the next flight) was Monday afternoon so everyone would have to lose a day of work. Not clear to me if they were really offering $800 cash or "travel vouchers".

    Regardless of the average, this was a pretty good auction market - they should have just kept raising the bid until they hit the market clearing price instead of dragging people off the plane. Some # would have done it that is less than the $1.5 billion of lost stock value.

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  207. @Jonathan Mason

    a sordid rogue’s gallery of marginal players trying to scratch out a living in the sad twilight of the American empire
     
    Brilliant!

    Of course in the dying days of Roman civilization, it must have been the same. The roads, the sewers, the brilliant engineering of the viaducts and the ports, the temples, the public baths, the stadiums did not all suddenly disappear in a puff of smoke, it must have been a slow process of cities going bankrupt, water supplies failing and becoming contaminated, bridges and potholes not being properly repaired due to revenue shortages and affirmative action for Visigoth companies, dams collapsing, stadiums closing down as the games became too expensive for local taxpayers, gladiators died off or retired to the Costa Brava and did nostalgia shows, sewers getting clogged with oyster shells and rusting chariot wheels, and so on.

    We are probably seeing the beginning of the end of the great 20th century American civilization, but the Orange Don is probably just the first of a long line of increasingly flaky hereditary Emperors whose tenure will become shorter and shorter until it is nothing unusual to have four Presidents in the same year, and none of us will live long enough to see the Last Trump.

    And every time the ratchet clicks down, it’ll be advertised as an improvement. It’s already happening with software.

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  208. Jack D says:
    @International Jew
    Great insights there from JackD.

    But...

    1. If those were Chicago cops that pulled Dr Dao away, why weren't they in uniform?

    2. $800 would be an above-average bribe from a major airline on a coast-to-coast flight. And this was just Chicago to Louisville.

    You never heard of plainclothes cops? But it turns out they were not Chicago PD but security agents of the Chicago airport authority, another arm of the Chicago gov’t. Airports in NYC region have Port Authority Police, not NYC/Newark cops.

    The bribe was not big enough for anyone to bite. It was a Sunday, the flight they were offering (which was NOT the next flight) was Monday afternoon so everyone would have to lose a day of work. Not clear to me if they were really offering $800 cash or “travel vouchers”.

    Regardless of the average, this was a pretty good auction market – they should have just kept raising the bid until they hit the market clearing price instead of dragging people off the plane. Some # would have done it that is less than the $1.5 billion of lost stock value.

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  209. @Daniel Chieh
    Well, the British destroyed a huge quantity of history and infrastructure, not the least being the intentional destruction of the Summer Palace.

    On the other hand, the Germans tended to play the "good cop", perhaps to balance their rivals in England but I also agree with the notion that there was something about the Germanic personality that was a better match for communication as a whole with the Chinese. All in all, the Germans were notably restrained in conduct in China and unlike the others.

    Regardless of why, there was a significant history of Sino-Germany cooperation; one of my grandfathers served in those German-trained battalions as well.

    Well, the British destroyed a huge quantity of history and infrastructure, not the least being the intentional destruction of the Summer Palace.

    You forgot to mention why: (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Summer_Palace#Destruction)

    In mid-September, two envoys, Henry Loch and Harry Parkes went ahead of the main force under a flag of truce to negotiate with Prince Yi and representatives of the Qing Empire at Tongzhou (Tungchow). After a day of talks, they and their small escort of British and Indian troopers (including two British envoys and Thomas William Bowlby, a journalist for The Times) were taken prisoner by the Qing general Sengge Rinchen. They were taken to the Ministry of Justice (or Board of Punishments) in Beijing, where they were confined and tortured. Parkes and Loch were returned after two weeks, with 14 other survivors. 20 British, French and Indian captives died. Their bodies were barely recognizable.[3]

    Good for the British.

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  210. Jack D says:
    @Reg Cæsar

    The Dao that is spoken about is not the true Dao.
     
    Not in English, anyway. The first consonant is neither our T nor our D, but an unaspirated T, which only appears within words in English, eg, stop. Or at the end, eg, flashlight.

    United lost their way.

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  211. @AnotherDad


    So they can remove you at any time for any reason because it’s their private property? ...
    What if the plane is at 8,000 ft – can they open the hatch and throw you out? Do they have to give you a parachute in that case or is that not included in the ticket price?
     
    Jack, this is so far off your usual standard it's ridiculous.

    "Strawman" pretty much covers it.

    How about the simple standard that exists pretty much everywhere else. If you're in my house and ask you to leave--leave. In a store or restaurant and they decide not to serve you and ask you to leave--leave. And if you don't leave someone's property when they ask you--then yeah, they can try and bodily remove you, and certainly call the cops.

    The restaurant example--another service business--is pretty informative. And yeah, if they decide they don't want to serve you and want you out--you don't pay! Because this is transportation and there is a bunch of hassle, in the airline biz you don't just get your money back, but are actually entitled to eventually get transported there and get 4x your ticket in compensation.

    The restaurant example–another service business–is pretty informative. And yeah, if they decide they don’t want to serve you and want you out–you don’t pay! Because this is transportation and there is a bunch of hassle, in the airline biz you don’t just get your money back, but are actually entitled to eventually get transported there and get 4x your ticket in compensation.

    The difference between a restaurant and an airline ticket is fairly obvious. When denied service, you can simply go to the restaurant next door. The compensation offered by the airline doesn’t cover the cost of an alternative flight to your destination that gets you there by the same time. Apart from being out of pocket and the hassle of booking an overpriced ticket with another airline for the same evening, you probably have to spend another hour going through check-out and check-in procedures.

    Not everyone’s traveling for pleasure. Being bumped meant this passenger was going to lose an entire workday. Doctors rely on repeat business. Patients who are inconvenienced can choose to take their business elsewhere.

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  212. bomag says:
    @Joe_Schmoe
    What everyone appears to be missing is that the doctor didn't just get up and exit the plane when the cops arrived. He struggled, like the crazy entitled drama queen Boomer that he is. Who among us would behave that? Certainly not me. When the situation escalates to the point where guys in uniform are standing next to my seat, I'd just swallow my anger, get up, and go. Not this guy. The cops actually had to grab him. It should not be necessary for them to do that. Any civilized adult should just get up at that point, however unfair the situation may be.

    I don't know exactly what happened next. Maybe the guy just sat there like dead weight. Maybe he hit one of the police officers, or bit them, or something. Again, the cops never should have had to touch the passenger, and the fact that had to resort to force is entirely the passenger's fault. Once they touched him, did they use excessive force? Sure looks like they did. I can't justify what happened next. The cops better have a darn good explanation, because it looks pretty bad for them.

    And I'm sure the doctor's behavior prior to the arrival of the cops was just as belligerent and unreasonable -- that's why the cops were called. Flight attendants deal with unreasonable and belligerent passengers all the time. But this guy was so bad that the cops were called. I'm sure there is more to the story here.

    People are also very unreasonable about airport security. It is not that much more intrusive today than it was before 9/11. They had metal detectors before 9/11. Today you have to take off your shoes and go though that awful scanner, but overall the process isn't that much different -- there have always been long lines, searches, etc.. The TSA clerks have never been particularly rude to me, they are just generic government workers. It's not like the minimum wage security guards who preceded them were models of courtesy and efficiency.

    Something about air travel really seems to make people whine and act petulant.

    Jack D's comment was magnificent -- "here are no heroes here, just a sordid rogue’s gallery of marginal players trying to scratch out a living in the sad twilight of the American empire, but streamed live and in color on your Korean cell phone" -- is one for the ages.

    Any civilized adult should just get up at that point, however unfair the situation may be.

    Part of me agrees, but it rankles me that I’m eating doo-doo on a regular basis in service to this kind of mendacity; some push back is in order, and this ended up as a pretty effective protest.

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  213. Jack D says:
    @AnotherDad


    So they can remove you at any time for any reason because it’s their private property? ...
    What if the plane is at 8,000 ft – can they open the hatch and throw you out? Do they have to give you a parachute in that case or is that not included in the ticket price?
     
    Jack, this is so far off your usual standard it's ridiculous.

    "Strawman" pretty much covers it.

    How about the simple standard that exists pretty much everywhere else. If you're in my house and ask you to leave--leave. In a store or restaurant and they decide not to serve you and ask you to leave--leave. And if you don't leave someone's property when they ask you--then yeah, they can try and bodily remove you, and certainly call the cops.

    The restaurant example--another service business--is pretty informative. And yeah, if they decide they don't want to serve you and want you out--you don't pay! Because this is transportation and there is a bunch of hassle, in the airline biz you don't just get your money back, but are actually entitled to eventually get transported there and get 4x your ticket in compensation.

    Airlines are a highly regulated environment. Next time you have to agree to a 50 page contract in order to buy a hamburger let me know. Yet somehow in this 50 page contract they covered how you could be denied boarding if there was overbooking (but not if they needed your seat for their own employees), how you could be ejected for B.O., and all sorts of other things, but they didn’t say you could be ejected after you were boarded so that they could replace you with their employees. Why bother with this 50 page contract (plus all those Federal regs) if they can throw you out any time for any reason?

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  214. Jack D says:
    @AnotherDad

    The contract, the regs, everything, all talk about “denial of boarding”. There is nothing that gives an airline a right to throw a non-disruptive passenger who is already boarded and seated out of the plane so that they can fly one of their own employees instead. This is going to be a big loser for them legally so they are going to settle and for a high $ amount in order to make this go away.
     
    You're probably right about it being a big loser--because a lot of people are stupid and emotional and trial lawyers love to empanel jurys of such idiots. But this is why people hate lawyers.

    There is absolutely *zero* functional difference between denial on or off the plane. The functional issue is can they take you on the trip? (United had a very good reason for why they could not do that for four passengers--a plane full of customers in Louisville waiting for a crew.) You may *feel* that it's "your seat" once you plot you butt into it. But it's not. It's still United's seat on United's plane.

    (Personally I've never considered anything about flying to be even *partially* final until they close the cabin door. That's a hint the passenger list *may* be finalizing and perhaps AnotherMom and I will be able to share that empty seat. But even then a few times I've seen the door reopened. Once we went back to the gate and deplaned.)

    But now I now ... the airline cedes its rights to its plane upon "boarding".

    So tell me Jack when exactly does this "ensoulment"--"enboardment"?--occur?

    Is it when they scan my boarding pass--then they can't bump me? Is it when I cross through the boarding door and enter the jetway? Is it when I actually step onto the plane? Or do I actually have to take my seat? Hey, what happens if I've sat down ... but i'm in the *wrong* seat? I see people doing that all the time. I sometimes do it myself intentionally when I think the plane isn't full and i'm hanging back toward the end of the boarding. Can the airline take me off if they've let me on but i'm not sitting in my correct seat?

    I just want to know when exactly the airline loses its property rights and I become master and commander of my airplane seat?

    Read Rule 21 of the Contract of Carriage which lists 31 reasons for which you may be ejected (including being barefoot (Rule 21 (H) (5) and pregnant (Rule 21 (H) (12) – sexist pigs!) or have malodorous condition (other than individuals qualifying as disabled!); but needing your seat for one of their employees is not one of them.

    https://www.united.com/web/en-US/content/contract-of-carriage.aspx#sec21

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  215. res says:
    @Jack D
    There are little bits and pieces in Rome that give you a clue of what it was like when things fell apart. The Portico of Octavia (in the middle of the Rome ghetto) comes to mind.

    Before:

    http://de2d2g2qlnqhe.cloudfront.net/content/ucpjsah/74/3/289/F11.large.jpg

    After:

    http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-X7HNaWhezNk/T4YSt-aVsgI/AAAAAAAAA5I/SbjA7pv-T14/s1600/Portico+of+Octavia.jpg

    Originally it was adorned with foreign marble and contained many famous works of art, but it was damaged by an earthquake in 442 AD. By then, they know longer had the money/skill to replace the destroyed marble columns, so instead they held up one end of the cornice with a crude brick archway which still stands and then they used part of the ruins as a church. The portico was used as a fish market from the medieval period, and up to the end of 19th century.

    By then, they know longer had the money/skill to replace the destroyed marble columns, so instead they held up one end of the cornice with a crude brick archway which still stands

    But they still had enough money/skill to hack it in a way that has lasted over 1500 years. Still pretty impressive IMHO. Things got much worse from there…

    It is a great example for giving a clue though–thanks. The completely fallen down unmaintained buildings and infrastructure don’t do that as well.

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  216. @Mr. Anon
    The airline behaved reprehensibly (they usually do, have they replaced the phone and cable companies as the companies that people hate the most?). The airport cops probably did too. Still, when I actually saw the video, and heard that guy whine and screech like a mama-san, I lost any sympathy I might have had for him too. His highly checkered background doesn't help his case either. One thing I was surprised to learn: that you can get a doctor's license with a felony conviction.

    I found it amazing that he got his Medical license back after the conviction. He also appears to have spent no time in jail. Contrast to this story: In 2002 I received a parking ticket in New Jersey that had 7 days to pay. I got lazy and did not pay it on time, one day later I received a letter demanding I pay it in 3 days, or the Court would issue an arrest warrant for me.

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  217. @mobi

    The airlines don’t want to go higher, because word would get around, then every time they asked for volunteers people would hold out until the price got very high.
     
    It occurred to me they're doubly in trouble because they upped their initial offer from $400.

    'Your honor, my client quite reasonably refused to leave because he assumed, if they were willing to go from $400 to $800 when no one took the offer, they might go higher still if he held out for more.

    When he did, they beat the crap out of him.'

    That would make a good parlour game of the dollar auction type. One player holds a baseball bat and offers another a sum of money. The other can either accept or refuse. The first can then either offer a higher sum or whack him with the bat.

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  218. @Jim Don Bob
    On the Air France flight the pitot tubes clogged with ice which turned off the autopilot and made the instruments give incorrect info. The pilot pulled up to counter turbulence and the plane was soon climbing at 7000 fpm with the engines running at 100% while its airspeed had dropped to 60mph. The angle of attack reached 40 degrees which was outside the computers "understanding" so there was no stall warning. The stall continued for the next 3 1/2 minutes as the plane fell from 38000 feet and hit the ocean.

    The two yokes were not mechanically linked so the second pilot had no cue that the third younger more inexperienced pilot was pulling back as hard as he could, and the yoke of the third pilot overrode that of the second pilot.

    More here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_447 and here: http://www.vanityfair.com/news/business/2014/10/air-france-flight-447-crash

    I’ve read about the Air France incident extensively. Yes, the airspeed data was bad, but the altimeter data was ok, and that is the rub. Part of his initial reaction was understandable. What wasn’t acceptable was his boyish “pull up” Star Wars response *AFTER* the stall warnings began. Yes it is true that the stall warning turned off after the data got so extreme, but Bonin’s most unforgivable mistake was not letting go of his stick, after the #2 pilot was trying to save it by putting the nose down around 10,000 ft. Bonin kept his panic grip on his stick, still pulling back, and cancelling out the #2s forward action. The pilot should have told him, to get his Fu*&^ing hand off the stick. Why a 32 yr old naif was in charge of a Jumbo in the middle of a storm – Insane lack of protocol. And Airbus’s “Joystick” control is dumb – too sensitive, and its angle position is not obvious enough to from a few feet away.

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    • Agree: Jim Don Bob
    • Replies: @The Man From K Street

    And Airbus’s “Joystick” control is dumb – too sensitive, and its angle position is not obvious enough to from a few feet away.
     
    The entire "side-stick" concept seems absurd, even to non-pilots, when the options and advantages are explained to them.
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  219. @Daniel Chieh
    For what it is worth, at least when I grew up, the Chinese pretty clearly distinguish the British as guilty and not "whites." I was taught that while various European nations did indeed divide up China, the British were the most guilty and the Germans the most innocuous. In a fairly recent visit to China, the government-run museums seems to carry a similar line.

    I was taught that while various European nations did indeed divide up China, the British were the most guilty and the Germans the most innocuous.

    They barely grazed China, let alone divided it up. Their real impact on China was to open it up to trade. Trade wasn’t a very big part of China’s economy before Europeans showed up. Then it became indispensable, with China racking up big surpluses until the British had the bright idea of selling superior Indian opium – then traded and used globally, including in the British Isles and the US – to the Chinese market. That worked to curb Chinese trade surplus for a while, until the Chinese started growing the Indian poppy cultivars domestically.

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  220. @OFWHAP
    A good friend's dad is or used to be a Delta pilot and made $350,000 per year while flying 4-5 times per month. I'm not sure when this was.

    A good friend’s dad is or used to be a Delta pilot and made $350,000 per year while flying 4-5 times per month. I’m not sure when this was.

    This is still the case for the senior captains at major airlines. It’s possible to schedule all of one month’s flights at the end of the month and the next month’s all at the beginning and basically have two months off in the middle. All while making great whacking amounts of money. The last five years of a pilot’s career are usually pretty epic.

    But that’s after a 30 year career at the same airline, maintaining your seniority line number, divorcing two wives, missing all your kids’ birthdays and every Christmas, and sleeping in pilot “crash pads” for the first 15 years of your career. Then having your 401k cut in half as the airline you work for goes through bankruptcy or a merger in the second 15 years of your career.

    FedEx tries to hire just ex-military pilots and pays well in the beginning. But the military doesn’t produce many pilots these days and hasn’t in many years.

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  221. When fuel was cheaper and competition less fierce an airline could operate a flight with only 70% of the seats filled. Most flights these days operate with more than 90% of their seats filled. The low cost carriers operate in the mid-90% range. That’s how they make money. They overbook like it’s cool and bump on those occasions when everybody actually shows up. The airlines know exactly what it takes to make you (minimally) happy when they bump you and that’s factored into their cost model.

    But their model doesn’t work so well at the margins, when a domino effect strands many pax.

    Working that backwards, when things went wrong in the past it took the empty seats on only two-ish other flights to pick up the slack. At 90% it’s 10 flights, at 95% it takes 20 other flights to haul off the passengers who got stuck because of a mechanical or weather. So major hubs are re-accommodating all day, every day.

    I’ve heard a saying, “Good news! Air Travel can be cheap, safe, and convenient. Bad news: Please choose two.” The FAA and TSA insist on it being safe, passengers insist on it being cheap, so convenient it’s not.

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    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    With high rates of seats being filled, which airlines are more efficient at doing these days, problems can ramify around the country.
    , @Jim Don Bob
    Software development has the same problem: Good, fast, or cheap. Pick two.
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  222. @Jack D
    Nuclear plant operator is the same thing. It' very hard to get people who are willing to put up with the constant boredom of staring at gauges that never move all day every day and yet are capable of doing top notch work on a moment's notice when suddenly they do move.

    Nuclear plant operator is the same thing.

    This thread is getting closer and closer to converging on this issue’s essence: the whole brouhaha comes straight from a Simpson’s episode. Not good news for 21st-century America.

    BTW, Jack, your comments on this really have been insightful; thanks very much.

    We Calvinists fly a lot, but mostly either long-haul Asia–USA, or within Asia. We gave up on United many years ago, after a couple of awful episodes on the US legs of our itineraries.

    A commenter above noted that anger at TSA/the USA airport experience in general seems disproportionate, given that what you’re put through is really not all that different from pre-TSA days. That’s true, and it’s also not all that much worse — from a big-picture perspective — than what you get in many airports that are considered exemplary, such as Hong Kong and Singapore. Getting a flight out of HKG still requires you to be there 90-120 minutes in advance; you still need to go through all the steps you would in a US airport; you still spend lots of time cooling your heels. It’s the minor aggravations — the microaggravations, if you will — that add up. Going through a metal detector is tolerable if you can just walk through, but it’s somehow much worse to pause within it and put up your arms like a perp.

    I also think there’s a simple relationship between the length of a flight and one’s ability to tolerate airport hassle, i.e. I know my own tolerance for wasting a couple of hours before getting anywhere is far higher when I’m checking in for a transpacific flight than it is when we’re going somewhere that’s an hour away. Even though the USA is a big country, most flights are still four-five hours or less, and lots (such as Chicago–>Louisville) are very short indeed. That’s a situation in which two-three hours of airport irritation for a dinky flight really gets the adrenaline pumping.

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  223. Yankee says:

    To paraphrase Oscar Wilde, you would have to have a heart of stone to watch the video of that man getting dragged off the plane and not laugh. And in that spirit, if you see this doctor on the plane, beat him. He will know why. Then deport him back to Vietnam.

    In all seriousness, the country would have been better off if this guy was never allowed to immigrate here in the first place. What have we gained as a nation by bringing in a person who ends up as an incompetent doctor, drug trafficker, sexual deviant, convicted felon, gambler, and disruptor of airplane travel?

    (Explanatory note that this is all meant as a joke, based on a Russian proverb. If only Mark Wahlberg had been on that plane, this never would have happened. And a reminder that it’s not defamation if it’s true.)

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  224. Luke55 says:

    Actually, with the ubiquity of the Ubercab criminals, legal taxi drivers across the U.S. largely are going broke. The net pay per day is down to something like 40% of what it was 5 years ago in many places, for spending many more hours working. (Ubercab is basically just a large-scale way to steal cars via computers.)

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  225. @Johanus de Morgateroyde
    When fuel was cheaper and competition less fierce an airline could operate a flight with only 70% of the seats filled. Most flights these days operate with more than 90% of their seats filled. The low cost carriers operate in the mid-90% range. That's how they make money. They overbook like it's cool and bump on those occasions when everybody actually shows up. The airlines know exactly what it takes to make you (minimally) happy when they bump you and that's factored into their cost model.

    But their model doesn't work so well at the margins, when a domino effect strands many pax.

    Working that backwards, when things went wrong in the past it took the empty seats on only two-ish other flights to pick up the slack. At 90% it's 10 flights, at 95% it takes 20 other flights to haul off the passengers who got stuck because of a mechanical or weather. So major hubs are re-accommodating all day, every day.

    I've heard a saying, "Good news! Air Travel can be cheap, safe, and convenient. Bad news: Please choose two." The FAA and TSA insist on it being safe, passengers insist on it being cheap, so convenient it's not.

    With high rates of seats being filled, which airlines are more efficient at doing these days, problems can ramify around the country.

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  226. Jack D says:
    @AnotherDad

    The contract, the regs, everything, all talk about “denial of boarding”. There is nothing that gives an airline a right to throw a non-disruptive passenger who is already boarded and seated out of the plane so that they can fly one of their own employees instead. This is going to be a big loser for them legally so they are going to settle and for a high $ amount in order to make this go away.
     
    You're probably right about it being a big loser--because a lot of people are stupid and emotional and trial lawyers love to empanel jurys of such idiots. But this is why people hate lawyers.

    There is absolutely *zero* functional difference between denial on or off the plane. The functional issue is can they take you on the trip? (United had a very good reason for why they could not do that for four passengers--a plane full of customers in Louisville waiting for a crew.) You may *feel* that it's "your seat" once you plot you butt into it. But it's not. It's still United's seat on United's plane.

    (Personally I've never considered anything about flying to be even *partially* final until they close the cabin door. That's a hint the passenger list *may* be finalizing and perhaps AnotherMom and I will be able to share that empty seat. But even then a few times I've seen the door reopened. Once we went back to the gate and deplaned.)

    But now I now ... the airline cedes its rights to its plane upon "boarding".

    So tell me Jack when exactly does this "ensoulment"--"enboardment"?--occur?

    Is it when they scan my boarding pass--then they can't bump me? Is it when I cross through the boarding door and enter the jetway? Is it when I actually step onto the plane? Or do I actually have to take my seat? Hey, what happens if I've sat down ... but i'm in the *wrong* seat? I see people doing that all the time. I sometimes do it myself intentionally when I think the plane isn't full and i'm hanging back toward the end of the boarding. Can the airline take me off if they've let me on but i'm not sitting in my correct seat?

    I just want to know when exactly the airline loses its property rights and I become master and commander of my airplane seat?

    FYI, even United has moved past your position now. Munoz said today:

    “He was a paying passenger sitting in our aircraft. No one should be treated that way”

    Munoz also said United already has decided it will no longer call on law enforcement to remove passengers from oversold flights once on board.

    “To remove a booked, paid, seating passenger, we can’t do that,” he said.

    Maybe you should tell Munoz he’s wrong and that Gestapo tactics really ARE the best way to run an airline, which is after all the sacred personal property of a corporation which is a type of person.

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  227. ATBOTL says:
    @Nope
    I don't have much sympathy for the passenger. He seems like another entitled minority to me. The whole thing reminds me of the white cop who slammed the black girl to the ground that wouldn't get out of her desk at school a few years ago. When are people gonna learn to do what the cops say and to sort it out later?

    “When are people gonna learn to do what the cops say and to sort it out later?”

    That’s the kind of mindless obedience to authority that has served white Americans so poorly.

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  228. @Anon
    http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/936731.shtml

    http://www.traveller.com.au/the-unfriendly-skies-chinese-passengers-outrageous-behaviour-2fkej

    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-kal-safety-idUSKBN14G02M?il=0

    http://onemileatatime.boardingarea.com/2014/12/11/why-is-korean-airs-nutgate-causing-so-much-controversy/

    Maybe the thing about Asians is they are less good at improvisation or picking up signals.

    In an environment with established hierarchy, they know what is what and act accordingly based on social expectations and rules.

    But in an environment where the relations aren't so sure and when everything is 'up in the air' or in a state of flux, Asians get confused. This lack of certainty and insecurity makes them act blunt than smooth. And they overreact to things.
    Their emotions are more solid than fluid in such moments. They are not adaptive.

    Good insight.

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  229. Art Deco says:
    @AnAnon
    And remember that there are still 94 million unemployed Americans.

    "How many industries work this way?" - All of them until labor scarcity is brought back.

    And remember that there are still 94 million unemployed Americans.

    No, there are 94 million people not working for all the reasons people are not working in any era. The median employment-to-population ratios for the following years are these:

    1948: 0.566
    1958: 0.554
    1968: 0.575
    1978: 0.5935
    1988: 0.623
    1998: 0.64
    2008: 0.623
    2017: 0.60

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    • Replies: @AnAnon
    "No, there are 94 million people not working for all the reasons people are not working in any era." - No, the recent collapse of the participation rate can be laid entirely at the feet of open borders/globalism.
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  230. Art Deco says:
    @Johann Ricke

    There are some poorly compensated pilots for regional carriers, but the mean annual salary for pilots and flight engineers is about $131,000 per year. With regard to airline pilots, those compensated at the 10th percentile are earning $65,000 per year. For generic commercial pilots, the 10th percentile are earning just shy of $40,000. Quite modest, but nowhere near $10,000 per year as your correspondent states.
     
    From Buffalo Joe's air disaster reference:

    NTSB investigators calculated Shaw was paid just over $16,000. Colgan officials testified that captains such as Renslow earn about $55,000 a year. The company later said Shaw's salary was $23,900 and that captains earn about $67,000.
     

    You all seem to think that Labor Department wage and salary data are invalid or irrelevant because you discovered a young c0-pilot on a flight which crashed in Buffalo who was paid some paltry sum. I’m not sure why you all think this.

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    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
    "You all seem to think that Labor Department wage and salary data are invalid or irrelevant because you discovered a young c0-pilot on a flight which crashed in Buffalo who was paid some paltry sum. I’m not sure why you all think this."

    You seem to think that "mean" and "median" mean the same thing. I'm not sure why you think this.......................... Oh, that's right. I do. You're a nitwit.
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  231. Art Deco says:
    @Bill Jones
    The place for the enforcement of contracts is the civil court system.

    Not some overweight, over paid moron in a government clown suit.

    Did the buffoon know the details of the ticket's restrictions?

    Not some overweight, over paid moron in a government clown suit.

    Otherwise known as an airport security officer doing his job.

    Sailer’s comboxes attract a choice crowd.

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    • Replies: @Mr. Anon

    Otherwise known as an airport security officer doing his job.
     
    And what job is that? Seizing your money? Stealing your stuff? Not actually making you one whit safer? Sticking his hand in your crack?

    Maybe the TSA seems useful and/or on the ball to you - says more about you than it does about them.


    Sailer’s comboxes attract a choice crowd.
     
    Mostly, yes. There are however a few dullards. You, for instance.
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  232. @Nico
    The mania for bonds as a "safe" or "risk-free" investment has always struck me as hilarious. Only a fool would trust a government with his money. And of course you know what they say about a fool ad his money...

    The mania for bonds as a “safe” or “risk-free” investment has always struck me as hilarious. Only a fool would trust a government with his money. And of course you know what they say about a fool ad his money…

    Nico, after you retire, what is your plan to support yourself?

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    • Replies: @Nico
    I'm not counting on being able to retire per se. I'm basically in combat mode at the moment to secure as much capital as possible. I'm still young enough that a good independent rentier state is not out of the question.
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  233. @Triumph104
    Claire Connelly has already deleted the tweet that you posted. I am a day late on the story, so if there were any reports confusing the two doctors, I didn't find them with a quick search.

    Connelly is an Australian journalist and seems to have trouble wrapping her head around the idea that in the US two people with the same name can each be licensed to practice medicine in different states.

    https://twitter.com/_ClaireConnelly/status/852123296669814784

    Board complaints that get people’s license to practice medicine taken away are generally public record. Fair or not its a fact of life for a doctor with a checkered past.

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  234. Mr. Anon says:
    @Art Deco
    Yup, the illusion of prosperity is kept alive by credit cards and a consumerist culture that encourages keeping up appearances. Otherwise the U.S. would now resemble 1950s Argentina.

    Per capita product in Argentina in 1955 was about 1/6th that of the United States today, so, no. Of all the troubles that might beset the American economy in the next 15 years, triple-digit inflation is about the least likely. Re the balance of payments, the current account deficit is currently running at an annual rate of -2.6% of gdp, so we could benefit from a rebalancing with less consumption and more savings. Cutting consumption by 3 or 4% isn't going to erase 85% of our productive capacity.

    “Per capita product in Argentina in 1955 was about 1/6th that of the United States today, so, no.”

    A lot of our gross domestic product is bullshit: legal process, compliance with government regulations, porn, video games, cable TV shows, life-coaching, etc.

    By the way, Art, did you manage to pick up some property in Ferguson cheap?

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    • Agree: Nico
    • Replies: @Art Deco
    1. It doesn't matter to anyone that some person who signs himself "Mr. Anon" thinks little of what he chooses to purchase. Those numbers delineate production in consumption per the preferences of the parties in question. That's so now, it was so in 1955. It is so in Argentina. It is so here.

    2. Legal services account for about 1.5% of the value-added in the economy. Could conceivably have been lower in 1955 and could conceivably be lower in Argentina then and now. Not going to make much difference.
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  235. Mr. Anon says:
    @Art Deco
    Not some overweight, over paid moron in a government clown suit.

    Otherwise known as an airport security officer doing his job.

    Sailer's comboxes attract a choice crowd.

    Otherwise known as an airport security officer doing his job.

    And what job is that? Seizing your money? Stealing your stuff? Not actually making you one whit safer? Sticking his hand in your crack?

    Maybe the TSA seems useful and/or on the ball to you – says more about you than it does about them.

    Sailer’s comboxes attract a choice crowd.

    Mostly, yes. There are however a few dullards. You, for instance.

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    • Replies: @Art Deco
    You have your issues, which include an uncontrollable impulse to lob insults at random individuals for obscure reasons. Not my problem. Not the airport security's problem unless you like to make an obstreperous jack-wagon of yourself in airports when they're on shift.
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  236. Mr. Anon says:
    @Art Deco
    You all seem to think that Labor Department wage and salary data are invalid or irrelevant because you discovered a young c0-pilot on a flight which crashed in Buffalo who was paid some paltry sum. I'm not sure why you all think this.

    “You all seem to think that Labor Department wage and salary data are invalid or irrelevant because you discovered a young c0-pilot on a flight which crashed in Buffalo who was paid some paltry sum. I’m not sure why you all think this.”

    You seem to think that “mean” and “median” mean the same thing. I’m not sure why you think this…………………….. Oh, that’s right. I do. You’re a nitwit.

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    • Replies: @Art Deco
    Your ace reading comprehension is such that you missed the significance of the percentile data reported by the Bureau of Labor Statistics. The woman in question was paid 25% of what airline pilots earning at the 10th percentile are paid. Where that put her, I'm not sure, but somewhere in the 2d or 3d percentile would be a passable guess. She's quite unusual and not a proper example of the labor market in civil aviation. This isn't that difficult to understand.
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  237. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Joe_Schmoe
    What everyone appears to be missing is that the doctor didn't just get up and exit the plane when the cops arrived. He struggled, like the crazy entitled drama queen Boomer that he is. Who among us would behave that? Certainly not me. When the situation escalates to the point where guys in uniform are standing next to my seat, I'd just swallow my anger, get up, and go. Not this guy. The cops actually had to grab him. It should not be necessary for them to do that. Any civilized adult should just get up at that point, however unfair the situation may be.

    I don't know exactly what happened next. Maybe the guy just sat there like dead weight. Maybe he hit one of the police officers, or bit them, or something. Again, the cops never should have had to touch the passenger, and the fact that had to resort to force is entirely the passenger's fault. Once they touched him, did they use excessive force? Sure looks like they did. I can't justify what happened next. The cops better have a darn good explanation, because it looks pretty bad for them.

    And I'm sure the doctor's behavior prior to the arrival of the cops was just as belligerent and unreasonable -- that's why the cops were called. Flight attendants deal with unreasonable and belligerent passengers all the time. But this guy was so bad that the cops were called. I'm sure there is more to the story here.

    People are also very unreasonable about airport security. It is not that much more intrusive today than it was before 9/11. They had metal detectors before 9/11. Today you have to take off your shoes and go though that awful scanner, but overall the process isn't that much different -- there have always been long lines, searches, etc.. The TSA clerks have never been particularly rude to me, they are just generic government workers. It's not like the minimum wage security guards who preceded them were models of courtesy and efficiency.

    Something about air travel really seems to make people whine and act petulant.

    Jack D's comment was magnificent -- "here are no heroes here, just a sordid rogue’s gallery of marginal players trying to scratch out a living in the sad twilight of the American empire, but streamed live and in color on your Korean cell phone" -- is one for the ages.

    Flight attendants deal with unreasonable and belligerent passengers all the time. But this guy was so bad that the cops were called.

    It sounds to me like the airline was being unreasonable and belligerent.

    Maybe this guy just got really sick of being pushed around by companies who think they can treat their customers like dirt?

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  238. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Jack D
    While the $1,350 is the cap for INVOLUNTARY denial it tends to set a cap on voluntary offers - why should the airline offer you more $ if they can just involuntarily deny you? (Why except for the possibility of a BILLION $ worth of bad publicity?) Usually they pick someone weak looking as a victim (notice that 3 out of 4 went along meekly). You're standing at the gate and you can shout all you want but they're not letting you on the plane or paying you more $. Here's your $1,350 (or less - it's 4x the ticket price), take it or leave it. This happens thousands of times and a worldwide stink has never resulted until now.

    Notice BTW that the reg says "denial of boarding" - it doesn't contemplate that they can remove you after you are already boarded and minding your own business.

    The root of the f*ck up here is that they let these people board and then when the passenger just refused to get off (which I think is actually within his legal rights) they resorted to force. When the guy said that he wasn't leaving, they should have thought of a different move but the Stanford prison experiment mentality instantly kicked in so they didn't think of this as a normal customer service interaction anymore but as "disobedience" to be countered with force.

    so they didn’t think of this as a normal customer service interaction anymore but as “disobedience” to be countered with force.

    Yes. And this is the kind of mindset that is becoming increasingly common in corporations. Customers are to be treated with contempt and if they complain then the best way to deal with it is to call security and escalate to intimidation and the threat of violence. Or in this case actual violence.

    Welcome to the Land of the Free in 2017.

    It’s disappointing that a lot of people here think this doctor was in the wrong merely because he was Chinese.

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    • Replies: @Brutusale
    And in the spirit of Sailerian who/whom, who/whom is making up a greater and greater number of these "customer service" drones?

    The DMV ladies rule the world!

    http://statici.behindthevoiceactors.com/behindthevoiceactors/_img/chars/dmv-lady-the-looney-tunes-show-98.1.jpg
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  239. Joel W says:

    The video I saw show the victim being anything but belligerent. And even if he was, can you blame him? The airline made the mistake. Too friggin bad. And they are getting flack because they called in the thugs with badges. The pill-doctor crap is just the old ‘smear the victim’ tactic. Was he selling pills on the plane? No, so what relevance is that? He was violently assaulted for exactly zero reason. Fuck the police.

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  240. Nico says:
    @David Davenport
    The mania for bonds as a “safe” or “risk-free” investment has always struck me as hilarious. Only a fool would trust a government with his money. And of course you know what they say about a fool ad his money…

    Nico, after you retire, what is your plan to support yourself?

    I’m not counting on being able to retire per se. I’m basically in combat mode at the moment to secure as much capital as possible. I’m still young enough that a good independent rentier state is not out of the question.

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  241. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Lurker
    Just reading about that crash. The Capt. had been on a pay to fly program at some point.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pay_to_fly

    Thats how bad things in the airline business! Not just unpaid interns but paying to work.

    As unbelievable as all this sounds, it’s true. Many people want to fly for a living, more than the number of actual pilot slots there are, so these schemes leverage this desire by taking advantage of the situation. The other problem is that general aviation has become so expensive that people who used to simply fly for a hobby decide the only way to fly is to get a job doing it.

    In countries where there is no GA except for the _very_ wealthy, airlines hire pilot candidates with no flying skills or experience whatsoever and train them from scratch. This actually works pretty well, but it is expensive, so in the US, schemes like this abound.

    The best solution would be for the government in the US to have a program similar to the Russian DOSAAF and provide accessible flight instruction for young people. The Civil Air Patrol used to do this to an extent, but has become pretty worthless since the 1980s.

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    • Replies: @Jim Don Bob
    What happened to the Civil Air Patrol?
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  242. McLeod says:

    CEO’s apology was hypocritical. Munoz started with lies. Contrary to his claims, his first reaction was to write a letter of support to the culprits rather than to ‘get the facts and circumstances’. In this letter he falsely accused the victim of misconduct. There was no ‘shame’ or ‘embarrassment’. Then he called the crimes committed against the victim a ‘re-accommodation’ . Munoz is a weak and incompetent executive who is unfit to hold the position of a CEO. The victim’s record is irrelevant to the crimes of which he is a victim. 1. This was not an overbooking. This man had a valid contract of carriage: he had no obligation to volunteer to leave. 2. The policemen who brutalized this passenger are guilty of felony crimes of assault under color of authority and causing injury during commission of crimes of assault, battery and false imprisonment, and several misdemeanors, including, without limitation, disturbing the peace, because they interjected themselves into a civil dispute where no crimes were being committed until they committed crimes themselves. 3. All UA employees who aided and abetted this crime, including, without limitation, those that requested the policemen to eject the victim from the aircraft, should be co-defendants in the trial of these thugs, as aiders and abettors. 4. The flight captain is likewise an aider and abettor if he was informed about the assault on the passenger and did not prevent it. So is the police watch commander on duty. 5. The CEO Oscar Munoz and all corporate officers who did not fire the employees immediately after being informed about this crime, and did not cause charges to be pressed against the police thugs and the suspect employees, are guilty of being accessories after the fact. Criminal charges should be filed against them. The victim has standing to do that. 6. The CEO showed himself to be weak, vacillating, unconscionable, incompetent, untrustworthy, unreliable and unable to provide the necessary leadership in a crisis. His reluctant insincere regrets came only after the storm of global outrage over the crimes United Airlines committed against an innocent passenger. Before then he falsely accused the passenger of belligerence, blamed the victim, praised the culprits and called this egregious assault a ‘re-accommodation’. Abject liar Oscar Munoz needs to be fired for cause without severance pay together with all the culprit employees. 7. I and my staff will share our opinion about the civil and criminal aspects of this case with civil and criminal attorneys of the victim. We shall do so without compensation. 8. By brutalizing the passenger United Airlines showed itself to be an aberrant fascist organization staffed with hitlerite nazilike sociopaths. My staff and I will never fly with United Airlines again. We will boycott them no matter what inconvenience this may cause us. United Airlines is an un-American organization.

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  243. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Jack D
    I have invented it already - it's called a "Hertz Rent-A-Car". They have one at every airport. Louisville is 4 hrs by car from Chicago. They could have stuck the 4 crew members in a car and saved a billion $ in shareholder value.

    So they can remove you at any time for any reason because it's their private property? Why do they even need that whole 50 page contract of carriage and all those Federal regulations? Shorten it up - 'The plane is our private property and we can do whatever we want to you once you step inside. Make you sit with your knees crunched against the next seat. Feed you a 1/2 ounce bag of peanuts on a 6 hour flight. You're our b*tch now." Maybe they can declare you a trespasser and shoot you while they are it it, especially if you don't leave within 30 seconds or less. What if the plane is at 8,000 ft - can they open the hatch and throw you out? Do they have to give you a parachute in that case or is that not included in the ticket price?

    Read this to see why you are wrong:

    http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2017/04/united-passenger-removal-reporting-management-fail.html

    Better idea: the squadron hack.

    In RAF parlance, the “squadron hack” in a fighter or bomber squadron is a liaison or trainer aircraft used for odd jobs, pilot currency training, and VIP use. USAF and USN squadrons called it something different, but they all had one. In “A Gathering of Eagles” Rock Hudson clambers into the squadron hack, a T-33, to formate up with and inspect the B-52 that has just had a big internal fuel flood. The ADC squadron at the local, now long since shuttered base (operating the Deuce and Six, and briefly Phantoms) had a couple of T-birds AND a twin engine Convair transport/navigator trainer for these tasks.

    In the airline world, in the sixties several US airlines had a variety of small GA aircraft for similar tasks, ranging from the ridiculous Ercoupe for crosswind training for pilots transitioning from Connies to the 707 and DC-8, to cabin class twins. Some foreign airlines flying only long distance routes own Lears or Falcons so that aircrews can get in a certain number of landings in a month in a crew operated jet without tying up a revenue aircraft and for ten percent of the fuel burn to do it. If this operator had had a King Air or even a Piper Aztec for such parts runs and crew hops they could have got the crew there for costs not much more than a rent-a-car. But again, this is only feasible in an environment with comfortable operating margins and aviators and not MBAs running things.

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    • Replies: @Jack D
    They could have chartered a small plane for not much more than they were offering in boarding compensation. There are a lot of things they COULD have done but stupidity and arrogance combined with bureaucracy are a dangerous combination.
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  244. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Bill
    Uh, the same way they get women to queue up to be screwed by an endless sequence of Hollywood sleazeballs on their way to a life of waiting tables and worrying whether they have enough money to feed their cats. Did you know the women who skate in the Ice Capades make basically minimum wage? Dancers who don't quite make it? Have you been around youth sports in the US at all? Stupid people are stupid. Even some smart people are stupid. You can get them to believe that being an actress or a pilot or an athlete is glamorous by only showing them success.

    But, you know, follow your dreams. It may not be in your own interest, but it sure is in someone's interest. Sort of like opiods that way.

    Uh, the same way they get women to queue up to be screwed by an endless sequence of Hollywood sleazeballs on their way to a life of waiting tables and worrying whether they have enough money to feed their cats. Did you know the women who skate in the Ice Capades make basically minimum wage? Dancers who don’t quite make it? Have you been around youth sports in the US at all? Stupid people are stupid. Even some smart people are stupid. You can get them to believe that being an actress or a pilot or an athlete is glamorous by only showing them success.

    The difference between “pay to play” for rock bands and the casting couch for would be actresses, and “pay to fly” and $10/hour F/O jobs on $25 million dollar regional jets is that in the latter, lives are at stake. The medical and legal professions have kept similar schemes to put newbies with cash in operating rooms and courtrooms out of the question: it’s a shame the ALPA wasn’t foresighted enough to do likewise when they had the leverage.

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    • Replies: @Twinkie

    The medical and legal professions have kept similar schemes to put newbies with cash in operating rooms and courtrooms out of the question
     
    Residents (those who graduated from medical schools, but not yet board-eligible or -certified to practice) get paid below minimum wage, yet practice very long hours and provide bulk of the physician services at most teaching hospitals. Many doctors further add to their already large school loans during residency, because salaries often don't cover living expenses. It's apprenticeship. It's not supposed to be lucrative.
    , @Marina
    Are men and women equally likely to make a go at these lottery ticket type winner take all fields? Does anybody know? Theater and acting seem to skew female, athletics definitely skew male, piloting skews male... My completely not evidence based hunch is that men are more likely to go for these fields than women, but then young women are much more likely to have access to male provisioning to sustain ten badly paid years in something like classical ballet. (I know women who dance "professionally" and are basically paid in pointe shoes.)
    , @Jack D

    it’s a shame the ALPA wasn’t foresighted enough to do likewise when they had the leverage.
     
    It wasn't a lack of foresight, it was 100% intentional. As little as junior pilots flying regional jets are paid, senior pilots flying big jets get paid VERY well. The airlines essentially give the pilots union a certain pile of loot and leave it up to the union to split it up amongst themselves as they see fit - it's all the same to the airline as long as their total labor cost comes in on budget. The way they saw fit was to give most of it to the senior pilots who were running the union. The same thing happened with the auto workers, who also sold out the current generation in favor of the existing baby boomer workforce. Solidarity forever!
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  245. @Anon
    If Brits loved tea and if China only sold but didn't buy, why not grow tea elsewhere?

    Didn't they grow tea in India?

    Did Brits buy tea from China to use that as excuse to open China's market?

    I mean it couldn't have been so difficult to take some tea plants and grow them in Africa or India and bypass China as supplier.

    They were only able to bypass the Chinese post-war as most countries generally try to protect their industries. The man who did it Robert Fortune also found that the Chinese were adulterating the tea with Prussian Blue and Plaster.

    http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/the-great-british-tea-heist-9866709/

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Fortune

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  246. Twinkie says:
    @Moshe
    I think Twinkie is yellow

    I think Twinkie is yellow

    See for yourself:

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    • Replies: @Jack D
    Yellow on the outside but white on the inside.
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  247. @Stebbing Heuer
    The Dao that is spoken about is not the true Dao.

    Thankyou Calvinist.

    Steve, I don’t know if this is true or not. I was just riffing off the Tao Te Ching.

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  248. Twinkie says:
    @Anonymous

    Uh, the same way they get women to queue up to be screwed by an endless sequence of Hollywood sleazeballs on their way to a life of waiting tables and worrying whether they have enough money to feed their cats. Did you know the women who skate in the Ice Capades make basically minimum wage? Dancers who don’t quite make it? Have you been around youth sports in the US at all? Stupid people are stupid. Even some smart people are stupid. You can get them to believe that being an actress or a pilot or an athlete is glamorous by only showing them success.
     
    The difference between "pay to play" for rock bands and the casting couch for would be actresses, and "pay to fly" and $10/hour F/O jobs on $25 million dollar regional jets is that in the latter, lives are at stake. The medical and legal professions have kept similar schemes to put newbies with cash in operating rooms and courtrooms out of the question: it's a shame the ALPA wasn't foresighted enough to do likewise when they had the leverage.

    The medical and legal professions have kept similar schemes to put newbies with cash in operating rooms and courtrooms out of the question

    Residents (those who graduated from medical schools, but not yet board-eligible or -certified to practice) get paid below minimum wage, yet practice very long hours and provide bulk of the physician services at most teaching hospitals. Many doctors further add to their already large school loans during residency, because salaries often don’t cover living expenses. It’s apprenticeship. It’s not supposed to be lucrative.

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    • Replies: @Art Deco
    Residents (those who graduated from medical schools, but not yet board-eligible or -certified to practice) get paid below minimum wage,

    The American Association of Medical Colleges reports that median compensation for medical residents and fellows is about $60,000 a year + fringe benefits. Were residents working the sort of schedules which were the mode 35 years ago (about 5,600 hours per year), that would amount to about $10.70 per hour. They have shorter working hours than used to be the case.
    , @AP
    Residents' pay comes out to being below or close to minimum wage per hour because they work an extreme number of hours. Residents make a little over $50k a year, which is more than enough to survive on without adding debt if they don't want it (in reality, because they anticipate much higher income soon, many start to buy expensive things while still being residents).
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  249. anon says: • Disclaimer

    Chicago PD is used to handling dindus who are in no position to complain most of the time.

    Are used to dealing with strong, aggressive and very hot tempered young men going through their peak testosterone years – including a small but very dangerous percentage of psychos.

    Effective po-leece will always have to be around 2/3 as bad as the criminals they deal with so if you want equally effective but nicer po-leece then you need nicer criminals.

    The easiest and quickest way to do that is tell the truth about genetics and heredity so underclass girls might still have sex with buff, dumb psychos but they’ll try to get pregnant by the ghetto equivalent of math nerd.

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  250. anon says: • Disclaimer

    So there are no heroes here, just a sordid rogue’s gallery of marginal players trying to scratch out a living in the sad twilight of the American empire, but streamed live and in color on your Korean cell phone.

    There are villains though.

    The people who corrupted the political system so lobbyists could rig the game in their client’s favor. They are responsible for all of it.

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  251. Art Deco says:
    @Mr. Anon
    "Per capita product in Argentina in 1955 was about 1/6th that of the United States today, so, no."

    A lot of our gross domestic product is bullshit: legal process, compliance with government regulations, porn, video games, cable TV shows, life-coaching, etc.

    By the way, Art, did you manage to pick up some property in Ferguson cheap?

    1. It doesn’t matter to anyone that some person who signs himself “Mr. Anon” thinks little of what he chooses to purchase. Those numbers delineate production in consumption per the preferences of the parties in question. That’s so now, it was so in 1955. It is so in Argentina. It is so here.

    2. Legal services account for about 1.5% of the value-added in the economy. Could conceivably have been lower in 1955 and could conceivably be lower in Argentina then and now. Not going to make much difference.

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    • Replies: @Mr. Anon

    It doesn’t matter to anyone that some person who signs himself “Mr. Anon” thinks little of what he chooses to purchase.
     
    What's wrong with "Mr. Anon" as a handle? It is no more anonymous than "Art Deco", unless of course your name is actually "Art Deco".

    Legal services account for about 1.5% of the value-added in the economy.
     
    What about the costs imposed on society in dealing with rampant litigation and legalism, much of which is the result of the imposition of diversity, much of it the result of a low-trust society. Legal costs are almost certainly much more than you say.
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  252. Art Deco says:
    @Mr. Anon

    Otherwise known as an airport security officer doing his job.
     
    And what job is that? Seizing your money? Stealing your stuff? Not actually making you one whit safer? Sticking his hand in your crack?

    Maybe the TSA seems useful and/or on the ball to you - says more about you than it does about them.


    Sailer’s comboxes attract a choice crowd.
     
    Mostly, yes. There are however a few dullards. You, for instance.

    You have your issues, which include an uncontrollable impulse to lob insults at random individuals for obscure reasons. Not my problem. Not the airport security’s problem unless you like to make an obstreperous jack-wagon of yourself in airports when they’re on shift.

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    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
    No, I lob insults at you because you deserve them. You are a smug, self-important clown. Nobody here missed you during your year-and-a-half hiatus from this site. Where ever it was you went to, you are most welcome to go back. You add nothing of value.

    As to your willingness to be humiliated in airports, I am unsurprised. Such a contemptible specimen as yourself has probably become inured to humiliation.

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  253. Art Deco says:
    @Mr. Anon
    "You all seem to think that Labor Department wage and salary data are invalid or irrelevant because you discovered a young c0-pilot on a flight which crashed in Buffalo who was paid some paltry sum. I’m not sure why you all think this."

    You seem to think that "mean" and "median" mean the same thing. I'm not sure why you think this.......................... Oh, that's right. I do. You're a nitwit.

    Your ace reading comprehension is such that you missed the significance of the percentile data reported by the Bureau of Labor Statistics. The woman in question was paid 25% of what airline pilots earning at the 10th percentile are paid. Where that put her, I’m not sure, but somewhere in the 2d or 3d percentile would be a passable guess. She’s quite unusual and not a proper example of the labor market in civil aviation. This isn’t that difficult to understand.

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    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
    You elided over the difference between mean and median, which you don't seem to understand. And you evidently don't understand the concept of "margin" either. The low wage structure of regional airlines means that you will often be flown by green, inexperienced, underpaid and over-worked pilots. The very high wages of pilots working for the main carriers masks this. You might deem that a good bargain. I would too - in your case that is.

    You know, Google is not a substitute for a brain. Your smarter-than-everyone act only works if you actually are smarter. You aren't. It shows.

    How's that rental property in Ferguson doing, genius?

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  254. Art Deco says:
    @Twinkie

    The medical and legal professions have kept similar schemes to put newbies with cash in operating rooms and courtrooms out of the question
     
    Residents (those who graduated from medical schools, but not yet board-eligible or -certified to practice) get paid below minimum wage, yet practice very long hours and provide bulk of the physician services at most teaching hospitals. Many doctors further add to their already large school loans during residency, because salaries often don't cover living expenses. It's apprenticeship. It's not supposed to be lucrative.

    Residents (those who graduated from medical schools, but not yet board-eligible or -certified to practice) get paid below minimum wage,

    The American Association of Medical Colleges reports that median compensation for medical residents and fellows is about $60,000 a year + fringe benefits. Were residents working the sort of schedules which were the mode 35 years ago (about 5,600 hours per year), that would amount to about $10.70 per hour. They have shorter working hours than used to be the case.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Twinkie

    median compensation for medical residents and fellows is about $60,000 a year + fringe benefits.
     
    Note "residents and fellow." Interns and residents make less.

    Were residents working the sort of schedules which were the mode 35 years ago (about 5,600 hours per year)
     
    Cap on the resident working hours changed about 10-15 years ago, not 35.

    $10.70 per hour
     
    For people with an MD. Even law school students make more than that - before they get their 3-year JD. Higher cognitive profile law students make far more than that at decent law firms during the summer.

    My point isn't that residents are terribly oppressed slaves. It's that they undergo poorly-compensated apprentice training.
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  255. Marina says:
    @Anonymous

    Uh, the same way they get women to queue up to be screwed by an endless sequence of Hollywood sleazeballs on their way to a life of waiting tables and worrying whether they have enough money to feed their cats. Did you know the women who skate in the Ice Capades make basically minimum wage? Dancers who don’t quite make it? Have you been around youth sports in the US at all? Stupid people are stupid. Even some smart people are stupid. You can get them to believe that being an actress or a pilot or an athlete is glamorous by only showing them success.
     
    The difference between "pay to play" for rock bands and the casting couch for would be actresses, and "pay to fly" and $10/hour F/O jobs on $25 million dollar regional jets is that in the latter, lives are at stake. The medical and legal professions have kept similar schemes to put newbies with cash in operating rooms and courtrooms out of the question: it's a shame the ALPA wasn't foresighted enough to do likewise when they had the leverage.

    Are men and women equally likely to make a go at these lottery ticket type winner take all fields? Does anybody know? Theater and acting seem to skew female, athletics definitely skew male, piloting skews male… My completely not evidence based hunch is that men are more likely to go for these fields than women, but then young women are much more likely to have access to male provisioning to sustain ten badly paid years in something like classical ballet. (I know women who dance “professionally” and are basically paid in pointe shoes.)

    Read More
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  256. Svigor says:

    Are used to dealing with strong, aggressive and very hot tempered young men going through their peak testosterone years – including a small but very dangerous percentage of psychos.

    Psychopath is a matter of degree. The crowd cops are dealing with on a routine basis almost certainly score higher than the general population in very high percentages. Not “small.”

    He was violently assaulted for exactly zero reason. Fuck the police.

    Fuck the Chicago police, anyway. And the LAPD, too. They’ve shown plenty of examples of problem behavior.

    I don’t see why we should paint all cops with the same brush, though. I wonder how many people who make such leaps would be comfortable making those same leaps with regard to more socially protected groups. Like, say, Jews.

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    • Replies: @Jack D
    Next time a Jew knocks out your front teeth, breaks your nose and gives you a concussion the way those thug cops did to Dr. Dao, let me know.
    , @anon

    Psychopath is a matter of degree. The crowd cops are dealing with on a routine basis almost certainly score higher than the general population in very high percentages. Not “small.”
     
    It might seem that way but I disagree. In my experience a very large percentage of young blue collar males will act up at some point during their peak testosterone years, say between 14-24, and personally i 'd class almost all of it (including consensual violence and petty crime) as "mischief" which they grow out of.

    And although I'd say there is a significantly higher percentage of psychos among the black population it's still only in the 4% ish range imo. However that 4x chance of bumping unto a stabber/shooter is huge difference in terms of lethality and is why cops imo 1) avoid policing black areas as much as possible or 2) are rougher when they have to do it (or 3) avoid it even more cos they know they have to be rougher but know the media will get them for it)

    Lowering that 4% ish down to the white (blue collar) 1% ish would make a disproportionate difference imo.

    (nb i know blacks have something like a 50% criminal record rate, so did the white blue collar people where i grew up. the lethality - aka percentage of psychos - that is the big difference)
    , @anon

    Psychopath is a matter of degree. The crowd cops are dealing with on a routine basis almost certainly score higher than the general population in very high percentages. Not “small.”
     
    It might seem that way but I disagree. In my experience a very large percentage of young blue collar males will act up at some point during their peak testosterone years, say between 14-24, in a way that will involve cops and personally i 'd class almost all of it (including consensual violence and petty crime) as "mischief" which they grow out of.

    And although I'd say there is a significantly higher percentage of psychos among the black population it's still only in the 4% ish range imo. However that 4x chance of bumping unto a stabber/shooter is huge difference in terms of lethality and is why cops 1) avoid policing black areas as much as possible or 2) are rougher when they have to do it (or 3) avoid it even more cos they know they have to be rougher but also know the media are after them for it)

    Lowering that 4% ish down to the white (blue collar) 1% ish would make a disproportionate difference imo.

    (nb i know blacks have something like a 50% criminal record rate but so did the white blue collar people where i grew up. it's the lethality - aka percentage of psychos - that is the big difference)
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  257. @mobi

    He owes the airline and other passengers an apology. He should say “sorry I acted like a jerk and necessitated you calling security to physically remove me from the plane.”
     
    Perhaps, but the fact that he's Asian secures his victimhood beyond reproach.

    Above even the brutality angle, he's got the narrative on his side.

    Yeah, I wondered what the reaction would have been if it was a young rednecky white guy instead of an old Asian guy. Would people be just be laughing and thinking what a jackass? I’m sure some people would still be upset out of general anti-authority sentiment and/or specific bad feelings toward airlines from past experiences. I think it almost certainly would not have been such a big news story. Everything seems to come back to race.

    I also saw in the business news that United could lose business in China. Will U.S. corporations now feel that they need to be extra deferential to Asian-Americans, even if they’re belligerent, out of fear of offending the huge Chinese market? That would end up being an extraordinary privilege that Asian-Americans would enjoy, which seems like it could breed resentment among white, black, and hispanic Americans who don’t have a big foreign power in their corner all the time.

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    • Replies: @Jack D
    I don't think that Dr. Dao's race really had anything to do with this incident either way. That's what his lawyer said today at the news conference he gave, too. Apparently the computer really does pre-select bumping victims by how low your fare was, how few mileage points you have, etc.

    However, I think that his age IS highly relevant. The police have no business manhandling anyone like that, but especially not senior citizens. Even if there hadn't been a bunch of cameras filming them, how credible was it that a rather frail looking 69 year old was going to swing at 3 burly cops so they had to pre-emptively knock him out? On 2nd thought, if Dr. Dao looked more like their own grandpa, maybe they wouldn't have beaten him up quite as much, but maybe they would have anyway.

    Munoz is a rare example of a real Mestizo type Mexican who has risen to a high position. He is not some Lebanese Conquistador-American. As America becomes less white, just out of coincidence, you'll see more incidents where the various players involved are all of different races and their race will not be salient to the incident at all.
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  258. @Johann Ricke

    As I understand it,an Iranian joo,er,Jew named Sassoon was the driving force behind getting opium into the hands of those eager Chinese.
     
    This retconning of current mores to those of almost 2 centuries ago is misleading. At the time of the conflict, opium was legal throughout the rest of the world, including all of the West and its overseas holdings. And the Chinese only targeted imports. The weak domestic variety was left alone. Imperial Chinese propaganda pointed to opium as the source of China's problems despite the fact that Chinese communities around the world had unfettered access to opium and yet thrived in material terms wherever they were. The key was getting out from under Chinese rule.

    This retconning of current mores to those of almost 2 centuries ago is misleading. At the time of the conflict, opium was legal throughout the rest of the world, including all of the West and its overseas holdings. And the Chinese only targeted imports. The weak domestic variety was left alone. Imperial Chinese propaganda pointed to opium as the source of China’s problems despite the fact that Chinese communities around the world had unfettered access to opium and yet thrived in material terms wherever they were. The key was getting out from under Chinese rule.

    That must be why Singapore is such a success while allowing all sorts of drugs and perversions.

    Oh wait.

    No, the fact that it is run by the Chinese must be why Singapore is such an abject failure.

    Oh wait.

    Third time lucky perhaps.

    Could it be that the problem during the Qing dynasty was that China was controlled by a foreign and hostile elite? Is there a lesson there for our time?

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    • Replies: @Johann Ricke

    That must be why Singapore is such a success while allowing all sorts of drugs and perversions.
     
    Singapore was such a success for the same reason Hong Kong, Bermuda and the Cayman Islands are such successes. British administration of a small territory possessed of a lucrative niche developed by those self-same administrators. Throughout the period of British Chinese hostilities, opium was legal in Singapore and traded and consumed there legally up until around WWII, roughly coterminous with opium's heyday in China. In that time, Singapore grew from jungle- and mangrove-ridden backwater to entrepot and center of commerce in Southeast Asia, attracting hordes of immigrants rather creating emigrants as China did. And the interesting thing is that Singapore, pretty much from inception, has always had a much higher population density and fewer natural resources per capita than China. So anyone who wants to blame Malthusian pressures for China's problems needs to look elsewhere.

    Could it be that the problem during the Qing dynasty was that China was controlled by a foreign and hostile elite? Is there a lesson there for our time?
     
    China was controlled by a thoroughly sinified Jurchen/Manchu elite that was less foreign than Henry V vis-a-vis England at the time of the 100 Years War. Court affairs were conducted in Mandarin - the language of the capital (and mandarins) in Beijing - and the Manchu literati wrote in Chinese. They were hostile to foreign interlopers and influences, but ruled more or less like the Chinese dynasties before them - partial to people from their home region whence their power base emerged and careful to think of the long term so that the empire could be bequeathed to their descendants.

    In fact, the Qing dynasty was one of the longest-lived dynasties in Chinese history, ranking just behind the Tang and Ming dynasties. The Qing period is when China reached the peak of its power and territorial extent, and the Chinese certainly don't reject the territorial legacy of the Qing period, during which the Manchu elites almost doubled the size of the Chinese empire. Both the Mao (or Sun Yat-sen) jacket and the slinky Chinese dress featured in a good number of Chinese movies covering the post-Qing period are based on traditional Manchu attire.
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  259. AP says:
    @Twinkie

    The medical and legal professions have kept similar schemes to put newbies with cash in operating rooms and courtrooms out of the question
     
    Residents (those who graduated from medical schools, but not yet board-eligible or -certified to practice) get paid below minimum wage, yet practice very long hours and provide bulk of the physician services at most teaching hospitals. Many doctors further add to their already large school loans during residency, because salaries often don't cover living expenses. It's apprenticeship. It's not supposed to be lucrative.

    Residents’ pay comes out to being below or close to minimum wage per hour because they work an extreme number of hours. Residents make a little over $50k a year, which is more than enough to survive on without adding debt if they don’t want it (in reality, because they anticipate much higher income soon, many start to buy expensive things while still being residents).

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    • Replies: @Twinkie

    a little over $50k a year, which is more than enough to survive on without adding debt if they don’t want it (in reality, because they anticipate much higher income soon, many start to buy expensive things while still being residents).
     
    Or he is married and has a child or two, and the residency is located in a high cost area.

    Try doing a residency at UCSF while married with a child on $50K and see if you don't rack up more debt.
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  260. Jack D says:
    @Twinkie

    I think Twinkie is yellow
     
    See for yourself: https://s3.amazonaws.com/liberty-uploads/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/2014/07/twinkies.jpg

    Yellow on the outside but white on the inside.

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  261. Jack D says:
    @Anonymous

    Uh, the same way they get women to queue up to be screwed by an endless sequence of Hollywood sleazeballs on their way to a life of waiting tables and worrying whether they have enough money to feed their cats. Did you know the women who skate in the Ice Capades make basically minimum wage? Dancers who don’t quite make it? Have you been around youth sports in the US at all? Stupid people are stupid. Even some smart people are stupid. You can get them to believe that being an actress or a pilot or an athlete is glamorous by only showing them success.
     
    The difference between "pay to play" for rock bands and the casting couch for would be actresses, and "pay to fly" and $10/hour F/O jobs on $25 million dollar regional jets is that in the latter, lives are at stake. The medical and legal professions have kept similar schemes to put newbies with cash in operating rooms and courtrooms out of the question: it's a shame the ALPA wasn't foresighted enough to do likewise when they had the leverage.

    it’s a shame the ALPA wasn’t foresighted enough to do likewise when they had the leverage.

    It wasn’t a lack of foresight, it was 100% intentional. As little as junior pilots flying regional jets are paid, senior pilots flying big jets get paid VERY well. The airlines essentially give the pilots union a certain pile of loot and leave it up to the union to split it up amongst themselves as they see fit – it’s all the same to the airline as long as their total labor cost comes in on budget. The way they saw fit was to give most of it to the senior pilots who were running the union. The same thing happened with the auto workers, who also sold out the current generation in favor of the existing baby boomer workforce. Solidarity forever!

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    • Replies: @Jim Don Bob
    That happens in unions everywhere. The longest serving cashier at my local Safeway makes $19 an hour and triple time on holidays. The newer employees are two union contracts behind her and paid much less.
    , @Brutusale
    My girlfriend is working with nurses making half what she makes. She was pretty disillusioned with the attitude of some of her colleagues with 30+ years at the hospital, pulling down salaries that are more than double the $60K being made by the hypothetical resident, about throwing the newer nurses under the bus.

    She says, though, given their lack of dedication to patient care, most of these new nurses are making exactly what they should.
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  262. Jack D says:
    @Anonymous
    Better idea: the squadron hack.

    In RAF parlance, the "squadron hack" in a fighter or bomber squadron is a liaison or trainer aircraft used for odd jobs, pilot currency training, and VIP use. USAF and USN squadrons called it something different, but they all had one. In "A Gathering of Eagles" Rock Hudson clambers into the squadron hack, a T-33, to formate up with and inspect the B-52 that has just had a big internal fuel flood. The ADC squadron at the local, now long since shuttered base (operating the Deuce and Six, and briefly Phantoms) had a couple of T-birds AND a twin engine Convair transport/navigator trainer for these tasks.

    In the airline world, in the sixties several US airlines had a variety of small GA aircraft for similar tasks, ranging from the ridiculous Ercoupe for crosswind training for pilots transitioning from Connies to the 707 and DC-8, to cabin class twins. Some foreign airlines flying only long distance routes own Lears or Falcons so that aircrews can get in a certain number of landings in a month in a crew operated jet without tying up a revenue aircraft and for ten percent of the fuel burn to do it. If this operator had had a King Air or even a Piper Aztec for such parts runs and crew hops they could have got the crew there for costs not much more than a rent-a-car. But again, this is only feasible in an environment with comfortable operating margins and aviators and not MBAs running things.

    They could have chartered a small plane for not much more than they were offering in boarding compensation. There are a lot of things they COULD have done but stupidity and arrogance combined with bureaucracy are a dangerous combination.

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  263. Yankee says:

    So at the end of the day, would you rather take a flight with United Airlines, or receive medical care from Dr. David Dao of Kentucky?

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    • LOL: Triumph104
    • Replies: @OFWHAP
    I think part of Dr. Dao's medical license reinstatement is that he can no longer prescribe pills, so what's the point...
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  264. @Johanus de Morgateroyde
    When fuel was cheaper and competition less fierce an airline could operate a flight with only 70% of the seats filled. Most flights these days operate with more than 90% of their seats filled. The low cost carriers operate in the mid-90% range. That's how they make money. They overbook like it's cool and bump on those occasions when everybody actually shows up. The airlines know exactly what it takes to make you (minimally) happy when they bump you and that's factored into their cost model.

    But their model doesn't work so well at the margins, when a domino effect strands many pax.

    Working that backwards, when things went wrong in the past it took the empty seats on only two-ish other flights to pick up the slack. At 90% it's 10 flights, at 95% it takes 20 other flights to haul off the passengers who got stuck because of a mechanical or weather. So major hubs are re-accommodating all day, every day.

    I've heard a saying, "Good news! Air Travel can be cheap, safe, and convenient. Bad news: Please choose two." The FAA and TSA insist on it being safe, passengers insist on it being cheap, so convenient it's not.

    Software development has the same problem: Good, fast, or cheap. Pick two.

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    • Replies: @Brutusale
    Anyone in sales in any industry says that: quality, price or delivery...pick two. Thankfully, my sales days were with a company that delivered quality and delivery.
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  265. @Anonymous
    As unbelievable as all this sounds, it's true. Many people want to fly for a living, more than the number of actual pilot slots there are, so these schemes leverage this desire by taking advantage of the situation. The other problem is that general aviation has become so expensive that people who used to simply fly for a hobby decide the only way to fly is to get a job doing it.

    In countries where there is no GA except for the _very_ wealthy, airlines hire pilot candidates with no flying skills or experience whatsoever and train them from scratch. This actually works pretty well, but it is expensive, so in the US, schemes like this abound.

    The best solution would be for the government in the US to have a program similar to the Russian DOSAAF and provide accessible flight instruction for young people. The Civil Air Patrol used to do this to an extent, but has become pretty worthless since the 1980s.

    What happened to the Civil Air Patrol?

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    It's still technically there but has badly atrophied. Kids quit signing up when they quit offering flight instruction. Unless you are planning to enlist in the USAF and want to trade a few years of participation and excel at it in exchange for dodging boot camp at Lackland there is nothing to gain from it any more.

    If Trump wanted to revitalize general aviation he could put the CAP back in that business, and order the design and construction of a new, purpose built trainer aircraft with the essential features of a military trainer that could be operated cheaply. But that is not going to happen.
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  266. @Jack D

    it’s a shame the ALPA wasn’t foresighted enough to do likewise when they had the leverage.
     
    It wasn't a lack of foresight, it was 100% intentional. As little as junior pilots flying regional jets are paid, senior pilots flying big jets get paid VERY well. The airlines essentially give the pilots union a certain pile of loot and leave it up to the union to split it up amongst themselves as they see fit - it's all the same to the airline as long as their total labor cost comes in on budget. The way they saw fit was to give most of it to the senior pilots who were running the union. The same thing happened with the auto workers, who also sold out the current generation in favor of the existing baby boomer workforce. Solidarity forever!

    That happens in unions everywhere. The longest serving cashier at my local Safeway makes $19 an hour and triple time on holidays. The newer employees are two union contracts behind her and paid much less.

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  267. @Anon
    "Well, the British destroyed a huge quantity of history and infrastructure, not the least being the intentional destruction of the Summer Palace."

    Did they really? I read some place that Chinese have not been very good at preserving their own culture. And under Mao's cultural revolution, sheesh.

    As for the destruction of summer palace, the French did that too. But it was just a Manchu neverland of vanity and luxury.

    Also, British intrusion laid the grounds for Chinese liberation from the Manchus.

    Brits ended Moghul Empire in India. And Western Imperialism led to Chinese nationalism that finally brought down Manchu rule and rise of China as republic.

    A good primer on Anglo and Sino is NOBLE HOUSE. Lots of lessons there.

    The real mess happened when the Japanese came invading.

    Also, British intrusion laid the grounds for Chinese liberation from the Manchus.

    The Chinese Han aren’t really as ethnocentric as some think – the Manchus had the Mandate of Heaven and were for all practical purposes, Chinese. They adopted the Imperial exam, their courts had Neoconfucianists, and as the Chinese considered it, they had become tong hua or assimilated(the literal word is “changed to become the same”).

    Whether the ruling Manchu caste thought the same may not have been true(and it doesn’t look like it these days, as Manchus tend to be the SJWs of China), but the Han certainly had largely accepted it, and to this day, there’s no major issue with admiring for, example, Qianlong Emperor. The Chinese tend to protest the fu bi nature of the late Qing – corruption and decadence – but through that same incompetence, they would have been toppled sooner or later. Lost the Mandate of Heaven, so to speak.

    And Western Imperialism led to Chinese nationalism that finally brought down Manchu rule and rise of China as republic.

    As noted, Chinese nationalism wasn’t the same as Han nationalism. It only became more it as it became clear that the Qing were not up to the task, though.

    That said, contact with the West made China stronger. This is acknowledged and largely, Chinese attitudes toward the West these days are colored not by a sense of “give me gibs” but the Darwinian survival of “the West taught us what we deserve for being weak.” Which is a great lesson to take, but just because you’re stronger because you’ve been abused, doesn’t mean that you’ll need to love the abuser.

    At any rate, this returns to the original point which was to refute the notion that the Chinese considered whites as single block. They don’t. Rightly or wrong, the British were seen as fond of coalition-building and hypocritical abstract principles, which they then used to bludgeon the weaker for selfish gain; no one else really gets the same degree of dislike, even close to it. The French are an odd case – the Germans seem to have passed on their contempt to the Chinese; it hard to hate someone seen as being essentially weak. The Germans actually are regarded quite favorably, and the Russians are the “hairy brothers” who are essentially extended family you’re stuck dealing with for the rest of eternity, for better or worse. And there’s quite a bit of gratitude for the Americans for their role against the Japanese, balanced against the geopolitical realities of today.

    And under Mao’s cultural revolution, sheesh.

    The Cultural Revolution was a disaster, as was the Great Leap Forward. It may have ruined China and fundamentally changed the characteristic of the population, forever. But at the end of the day, the Chinese forgive intra-kin conflict(and which also is why the Russians are given pretty free pass despite the long history of border conflicts).

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  268. Mr. Anon says:
    @Art Deco
    1. It doesn't matter to anyone that some person who signs himself "Mr. Anon" thinks little of what he chooses to purchase. Those numbers delineate production in consumption per the preferences of the parties in question. That's so now, it was so in 1955. It is so in Argentina. It is so here.

    2. Legal services account for about 1.5% of the value-added in the economy. Could conceivably have been lower in 1955 and could conceivably be lower in Argentina then and now. Not going to make much difference.

    It doesn’t matter to anyone that some person who signs himself “Mr. Anon” thinks little of what he chooses to purchase.

    What’s wrong with “Mr. Anon” as a handle? It is no more anonymous than “Art Deco”, unless of course your name is actually “Art Deco”.

    Legal services account for about 1.5% of the value-added in the economy.

    What about the costs imposed on society in dealing with rampant litigation and legalism, much of which is the result of the imposition of diversity, much of it the result of a low-trust society. Legal costs are almost certainly much more than you say.

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    • Replies: @Art Deco
    What about the costs imposed on society in dealing with rampant litigation and legalism, much of which is the result of the imposition of diversity, much of it the result of a low-trust society.

    The costs would be the difference between production as is and production as it might be without these deadweight losses. Production as is (per capita) is six times what it was in Argentina in 1955. Production under a more efficient legal regime would be more than 6x what it was.
    , @Art Deco
    What’s wrong with “Mr. Anon” as a handle? It is no more anonymous than “Art Deco”, unless of course your name is actually “Art Deco”.

    I don't care what your handle is. Your original complaint was that production statistics are nonsense because they are a function of consumers' assessments of their own utility rather than "Mr. Anon"'s value judgments about how worthwhile is what they consume. You value your own opinion quite highly. Not everyone does.
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  269. Mr. Anon says:
    @Art Deco
    You have your issues, which include an uncontrollable impulse to lob insults at random individuals for obscure reasons. Not my problem. Not the airport security's problem unless you like to make an obstreperous jack-wagon of yourself in airports when they're on shift.

    No, I lob insults at you because you deserve them. You are a smug, self-important clown. Nobody here missed you during your year-and-a-half hiatus from this site. Where ever it was you went to, you are most welcome to go back. You add nothing of value.

    As to your willingness to be humiliated in airports, I am unsurprised. Such a contemptible specimen as yourself has probably become inured to humiliation.

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    • Replies: @Art Deco
    As to your willingness to be humiliated in airports, I am unsurprised. Such a contemptible specimen as yourself has probably become inured to humiliation.

    The security procedures in airports have been in place since 1973. They're somewhat more elaborate and time consuming than they were 20 years ago, but not essentially different. They're implemented by a federal agency rather than airport employees or airline employees, but that doesn't make much different to the customer. No, I haven't been picking fights with airport security personnel for 44 years. They don't design or assess the procedures they follow, they're not going to change procedure because I make a fuss, and I have no particular hostility to ordinary wage-earners doing their jobs (which is, IIRC, to ask me to empty my pockets, take off my shoes, put my carry-on bag on a conveyor, and walk through a metal detector; except for the shoes, that's been SOP throughout the adult life of any American below retirement age).
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  270. The doctor stood up to the oppressors while the slaves can’t even open their mouths to utter a complaint, However, they WILL all benefit from his action and courage, so stop talking trash.

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  271. Mr. Anon says:
    @Art Deco
    Your ace reading comprehension is such that you missed the significance of the percentile data reported by the Bureau of Labor Statistics. The woman in question was paid 25% of what airline pilots earning at the 10th percentile are paid. Where that put her, I'm not sure, but somewhere in the 2d or 3d percentile would be a passable guess. She's quite unusual and not a proper example of the labor market in civil aviation. This isn't that difficult to understand.

    You elided over the difference between mean and median, which you don’t seem to understand. And you evidently don’t understand the concept of “margin” either. The low wage structure of regional airlines means that you will often be flown by green, inexperienced, underpaid and over-worked pilots. The very high wages of pilots working for the main carriers masks this. You might deem that a good bargain. I would too – in your case that is.

    You know, Google is not a substitute for a brain. Your smarter-than-everyone act only works if you actually are smarter. You aren’t. It shows.

    How’s that rental property in Ferguson doing, genius?

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    • Replies: @Art Deco
    You elided over the difference between mean and median, which you don’t seem to understand.

    I reported the mean figure because that's what the Bureau of Labor Statistics reports. I made it quite clear that it was the mean figure being reported. I reported the 10th percentile figure because they report that too and it gives an indication of what low-ranking employees are paid in these sectors.

    You keep misunderstanding, even though it's quite simple.
    , @Art Deco
    You know, Google is not a substitute for a brain. Your smarter-than-everyone act only works if you actually are smarter. You aren’t. It shows.

    My point in that post was to report the actual data, which doesn't require much in the way of intelligence to either read or understand. I have no 'act'. You have neuralgic reactions to dry descriptive statistics because you're an ass, which is your problem.
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  272. @Peripatetic commenter
    You don't get it. He's an honorary white person.

    However, I do have to wonder what part of Christianity resonates with Asians or whether they are genetically a strain of people who are closest to strongly Christian whites ... selection is an interesting sieve of Eratosthenes ...

    There’s some body of work that suggests that Confucianism has set the stage for a full blown progressiveness outbreak that’s just waiting to happen, of which Christianity resonated heavily with it. A few things to consider, for example:

    * Confucianism largely refuses traditional kinship and promotes a certain kind of individual recognition. Its not the Western definition of individuality, but it strongly emphasizes merit as defined through academia.

    “The worth of a man is discovered through education.”

    * Confucian scholars preached cultural identification, not ethnic identification. This included othering those of Han ethnicity if they did not practice “Chinese customs” defined as Confucian.

    “If the feudal lords practice Yi customs, then they should be called Yi. If the feudal lords practice Chinese customs ,then they should be called Chinese [no matter what their ethnicity is]”

    * Confucianism preaches compassion as an important, perhaps even overriding, principle. While it hasn’t quite gone this far, you already see Western Confucianists such as Daniel A Bell suggesting that this means that the government should be composed of primarily women and “sensitive gays”; he’s refuted by a female Confucian scholar(and government official) who replies that there are proper roles which require women to serve a role but never be dominant. And that the Confucian emphasis on family makes gay men inappropriate for more than a minor government representation(because they would not be able to relate to the presumably dominant heterosexuals).

    Nonetheless, there’s another an angle of attack for progressives to use.

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  273. Art Deco says:
    @Mr. Anon
    You elided over the difference between mean and median, which you don't seem to understand. And you evidently don't understand the concept of "margin" either. The low wage structure of regional airlines means that you will often be flown by green, inexperienced, underpaid and over-worked pilots. The very high wages of pilots working for the main carriers masks this. You might deem that a good bargain. I would too - in your case that is.

    You know, Google is not a substitute for a brain. Your smarter-than-everyone act only works if you actually are smarter. You aren't. It shows.

    How's that rental property in Ferguson doing, genius?

    You elided over the difference between mean and median, which you don’t seem to understand.

    I reported the mean figure because that’s what the Bureau of Labor Statistics reports. I made it quite clear that it was the mean figure being reported. I reported the 10th percentile figure because they report that too and it gives an indication of what low-ranking employees are paid in these sectors.

    You keep misunderstanding, even though it’s quite simple.

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    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
    I didn't misunderstand any of what you posted. What you posted is irrelevant to the argument at hand. As it usually is.
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  274. Art Deco says:
    @Mr. Anon
    You elided over the difference between mean and median, which you don't seem to understand. And you evidently don't understand the concept of "margin" either. The low wage structure of regional airlines means that you will often be flown by green, inexperienced, underpaid and over-worked pilots. The very high wages of pilots working for the main carriers masks this. You might deem that a good bargain. I would too - in your case that is.

    You know, Google is not a substitute for a brain. Your smarter-than-everyone act only works if you actually are smarter. You aren't. It shows.

    How's that rental property in Ferguson doing, genius?

    You know, Google is not a substitute for a brain. Your smarter-than-everyone act only works if you actually are smarter. You aren’t. It shows.

    My point in that post was to report the actual data, which doesn’t require much in the way of intelligence to either read or understand. I have no ‘act’. You have neuralgic reactions to dry descriptive statistics because you’re an ass, which is your problem.

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    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
    You have no "act"? You mean this smug douchery is your unvarnished personality (for want of a better term)? That's even more pathetic.

    By the way, Googling isn't a super-power.
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  275. Art Deco says:
    @Mr. Anon

    It doesn’t matter to anyone that some person who signs himself “Mr. Anon” thinks little of what he chooses to purchase.
     
    What's wrong with "Mr. Anon" as a handle? It is no more anonymous than "Art Deco", unless of course your name is actually "Art Deco".

    Legal services account for about 1.5% of the value-added in the economy.
     
    What about the costs imposed on society in dealing with rampant litigation and legalism, much of which is the result of the imposition of diversity, much of it the result of a low-trust society. Legal costs are almost certainly much more than you say.

    What about the costs imposed on society in dealing with rampant litigation and legalism, much of which is the result of the imposition of diversity, much of it the result of a low-trust society.

    The costs would be the difference between production as is and production as it might be without these deadweight losses. Production as is (per capita) is six times what it was in Argentina in 1955. Production under a more efficient legal regime would be more than 6x what it was.

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  276. Art Deco says:
    @Mr. Anon

    It doesn’t matter to anyone that some person who signs himself “Mr. Anon” thinks little of what he chooses to purchase.
     
    What's wrong with "Mr. Anon" as a handle? It is no more anonymous than "Art Deco", unless of course your name is actually "Art Deco".

    Legal services account for about 1.5% of the value-added in the economy.
     
    What about the costs imposed on society in dealing with rampant litigation and legalism, much of which is the result of the imposition of diversity, much of it the result of a low-trust society. Legal costs are almost certainly much more than you say.

    What’s wrong with “Mr. Anon” as a handle? It is no more anonymous than “Art Deco”, unless of course your name is actually “Art Deco”.

    I don’t care what your handle is. Your original complaint was that production statistics are nonsense because they are a function of consumers’ assessments of their own utility rather than “Mr. Anon”‘s value judgments about how worthwhile is what they consume. You value your own opinion quite highly. Not everyone does.

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    • Replies: @Mr. Anon

    I don’t care what your handle is.
     
    You obviously did, as you took issue with it.

    Your original complaint was that production statistics are nonsense......
     
    No, I said no such thing. I didn't say they were "nonsense". I said they were inflated. GDP consists of a who bunch of "product" that is actually harmful to society, such as - for example - porn, reality TV, gambling, the economic consequequences of divorce, whatever it is that you do for a living, etc. - a whole raft of social ills. That is apparently too difficult for a spergy cretin like you to fathom.
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  277. Art Deco says:
    @Mr. Anon
    No, I lob insults at you because you deserve them. You are a smug, self-important clown. Nobody here missed you during your year-and-a-half hiatus from this site. Where ever it was you went to, you are most welcome to go back. You add nothing of value.

    As to your willingness to be humiliated in airports, I am unsurprised. Such a contemptible specimen as yourself has probably become inured to humiliation.

    As to your willingness to be humiliated in airports, I am unsurprised. Such a contemptible specimen as yourself has probably become inured to humiliation.

    The security procedures in airports have been in place since 1973. They’re somewhat more elaborate and time consuming than they were 20 years ago, but not essentially different. They’re implemented by a federal agency rather than airport employees or airline employees, but that doesn’t make much different to the customer. No, I haven’t been picking fights with airport security personnel for 44 years. They don’t design or assess the procedures they follow, they’re not going to change procedure because I make a fuss, and I have no particular hostility to ordinary wage-earners doing their jobs (which is, IIRC, to ask me to empty my pockets, take off my shoes, put my carry-on bag on a conveyor, and walk through a metal detector; except for the shoes, that’s been SOP throughout the adult life of any American below retirement age).

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    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
    “The security procedures in airports have been in place since 1973. They’re somewhat more elaborate and time consuming than they were 20 years ago, but not essentially different. They’re implemented by a federal agency rather than airport employees or airline employees, but that doesn’t make much different to the customer.”

    That’s utter BS. They were a lot different prior to 911. Are you willfullly stupid?

    “No, I haven’t been picking fights with airport security personnel for 44 years.”

    That’s wise. It’s best not to pick fights with your superiors. And TSA goons most definitely are your superiors.

    “They don’t design or assess the procedures they follow,”

    Yeah, yeah, neither did the Gestapo.

    Yes, you are a good compliant little burger.
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  278. @CrunchybutRealistCon
    I've read about the Air France incident extensively. Yes, the airspeed data was bad, but the altimeter data was ok, and that is the rub. Part of his initial reaction was understandable. What wasn't acceptable was his boyish "pull up" Star Wars response *AFTER* the stall warnings began. Yes it is true that the stall warning turned off after the data got so extreme, but Bonin's most unforgivable mistake was not letting go of his stick, after the #2 pilot was trying to save it by putting the nose down around 10,000 ft. Bonin kept his panic grip on his stick, still pulling back, and cancelling out the #2s forward action. The pilot should have told him, to get his Fu*&^ing hand off the stick. Why a 32 yr old naif was in charge of a Jumbo in the middle of a storm - Insane lack of protocol. And Airbus's "Joystick" control is dumb - too sensitive, and its angle position is not obvious enough to from a few feet away.

    And Airbus’s “Joystick” control is dumb – too sensitive, and its angle position is not obvious enough to from a few feet away.

    The entire “side-stick” concept seems absurd, even to non-pilots, when the options and advantages are explained to them.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    The sidestick works very well in fighters such as the F-16, which is a fly by wire aircraft designed to pull a lot of G's. It's a stupid idea anywhere else.

    The cute but deadly BD-5 kit airplane had a sidestick for simple ergonomic reasons-the pilot sat in a space with legs out like a go-kart. The sidestick was a major contributing factor to the horrendous crash rate of this airplane, a disaster like every design Jim Bede ever touched, and it set the homebuilt airplane movement back ten to twenty years.

    The conventional wheel-on-a pole yoke system works very well for large aircraft, which is why Boeing has retined it on their fly by wire transports. Why transports need to be, or even should be allowed to be, fly by wire is another question in and of itself, but one that, like the QWERTY keyboard, seems settled now.
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