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NYT op-ed columnist Roger Cohen argues for importing vast numbers of anti-Semites into Europe as payback for Christendom’s past anti-Semitism. Or something:

Indifference Kills
OCT. 8, 2015

Roger Cohen

MILAN — “Indifference” is the word engraved on the stark wall at the entrance to Milan’s Holocaust memorial, housed beneath the central railway station from which Jews were deported to Auschwitz and other Nazi camps. The premises vibrate when trains depart overhead, as if mirroring the shudder the place provokes.

A survivor of the deportation, Liliana Segre, whose father, Alberto, was killed at Auschwitz, suggested that “indifference” was the most appropriate word to greet visitors to the memorial, which opened in 2013. Nobody had cared when, from 1943 onward, Jews were hauled through the elegant avenues of Milan to the station. They were unloaded from trucks and packed into wooden boxcars made to transport six horses but used for some 80 doomed human beings.

So it was perhaps inevitable that when Roberto Jarach, the vice president of the memorial, was asked if he could help with Milan’s refugee crisis, he saw that word flash through his mind. As hundreds of desperate refugees converged daily on Milan’s central station — opened during the rule of the Fascist dictator Benito Mussolini — the memorial could not show “indifference.”

“I immediately came down here to measure the space we have,” Jarach told me. “These people hardly know where they are.”

And so, for a few months now, camp beds have been set out every night to the left of the main entrance. In all, about 3,500 people have been sheltered, mainly Eritreans, but also Syrians and Afghans, part of the largest movement of refugees and migrants since the end of World War II.

… They leave the next morning, usually headed north toward Germany.

There is no direct analogy between the situation of millions of refugees today and the Jews who were deported from Milan’s Platform 21 (as the memorial is also known). …

Still, there are echoes, not least in that word, indifference.

The indifference of Hungary, with its self-appointed little exercise in bigotry: the defense of Europe as Christian Club. The indifference of Britain, where the prime minister speaks of “swarms,” the foreign secretary of “desperate migrants marauding,” and the home secretary of threats “to a cohesive society.” The indifference of a Europe that cannot rouse itself to establish adequate legal routes to refugee status that would stem trafficking that has left about 3,000 people dead this year in the Mediterranean.

Then there is the indifference of an America that seems to have forgotten its role as haven for refugees of every stripe. …

Another echo, for Jews, lies in their own situation in Europe a little over a century ago. They were often marginalized. As Rabbi Julia Neuberger pointed out in a recent sermon at the West London Synagogue, around 150,000 Jews, often fleeing pogroms, arrived in Britain between 1881 and 1914. An anti-immigrant group called the British Brothers’ League declared then that Britain could not become “the dumping ground for the scum of Europe.”

Sound familiar?

Yesterday’s “scum” often proves to be the invigorating lifeblood of renewal. Churchill opposed the Aliens’ Act of 1905, designed to control Jewish immigration, on the grounds that “free entry and asylum” were practices from which Britain “has so greatly gained.”

Europe is awash in small-mindedness, prejudice and amnesia. On Syria, the United States is not far behind.

Jarach, whose Jewish family arrived in Milan in the late 19th century, is assisted by Adhil Rabhi, a Moroccan immigrant. They showed me around the memorial, explained how each boxcar was filled with Jews and then shunted to an elevator that took them up to the platform.

Nobody saw the Jews. Nobody wanted to see them. Indifference kills. As Syria demonstrates.

The title of this post is of course a reference to the modern fable of self-destructive spite usually associated with the Middle East, as in this retelling by Bob Schieffer of CBS News in 2006:

When the war broke out in the Middle East, I thought about the old story of the frog and the scorpion who were trying to cross a river there.

The scorpion couldn’t swim and the frog was lost, so the scorpion proposed a deal: Give me a ride on your back and I’ll show you the way.

The frog agreed and the trip went fine until they got to the middle of the river and the scorpion stung the frog. As they were sinking, the frog asked in his dying breath, “why would you do that?”

To which the scorpion replied, “because it is the Middle East.”

 
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  1. ren says:

    Nobody had cared when, from 1943 onward, Jews were hauled through the elegant avenues of Milan to the station. They were unloaded from trucks and packed into wooden boxcars made to transport six horses but used for some 80 doomed human beings.

    Most people did not know what was going on. They had a media much like we do that lie, lie, lie for the current political regime. The man on the street sure as hell didn’t think the men, women and children were headed to the gas chambers.

    Read More
    • Agree: Jim Don Bob
    • Replies: @officious intermeddler
    A very large majority of Italy's Jews survived World War II, because in fact Italians were not indifferent and many went to great lengths, at considerable danger to themselves, to save Jews.
    , @D. K.
    If they were "doomed," how is it that, more than seventy years later, Liliana Segre herself is still available to ruminate on those events? Can she tell us when and how her father was murdered, or does dying in detention equal murder, when it happened in a German-run camp rather than, say, a Soviet-run camp? We all are glad, regardless, that Liliana is alive and well, in 2015, along with hundreds of thousands of other Jewish Holocaust survivors, according to Israeli sources, which had put the survivors at just over a million, still, as of January 1, 2004. Not being an actuary, I can only guess at how many millions of such survivors there must have been, seventy years ago!?!
    , @Hail

    Most people did not know what was going on
     
    Orthodox Holocaust history tells us that even Hitler himself "didn't know what was going on". But it's even beyond that. Orthodox Holocaust history tells us that there was no coordination of the extermination program. Hilberg states that the genocide of the Jews, which we all know absolutely and certainly occurred, but which historians can't quite explain, occurred through "an incredible meeting of minds, a consensus -- mind reading by a far-flung bureaucracy", "[W]hat began in 1941 was a process of destruction not planned in advance, not organized centrally by any agency." (Raul Hilberg's words).

    If Hitler didn't know, and if no one in Germany at all apparently knew except a handful of genocidal camp officials operating without orders and by ESP, how were ordinary Italians supposed to know?

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  2. I feel sorry for the Jews who have remained in Europe.

    They need to emigrate right away.

    Especially the Jews in Germany.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Travis
    Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu declared that European Jews should embark on a “mass immigration” to Israel. "Israel is your home. We are preparing and calling for the absorption of mass Jewish immigration from Europe," -

    Netanyahu said his government was to adopt a $45 million plan "to encourage the absorption of 750,000 Jewish immigrants from Europe. "To the Jews of Europe and to the Jews of the world I say that Israel is waiting for you with open arms,"
    , @SFG
    Actually, the German Jews'll last a little longer--Germany will probably be more reluctant to sell them out than its neighbors, for obvious reasons.

    That said, allowing guilt over something your grandparents did to make you screw over your kids...I don't know, I get the logic, but it seems really dumb. I don't think it will be the end of the German nation, but they're going to have a permanent ethnic underclass the way we do.
    , @rod1963
    I don't, since most of them support the Muslim onslaught. Doubt it? Where are the Jewish marches protesting them. Oh that's right they only protest when the Goys demand a stop to immigration.

    So when the Muzzies start to tear into the Jewish communities in Europe, well the Jews brought it on themselves. And in France it's already led to Jews fleeing. Yet French Jews still support Muslim immigration.

    Their hatred of Westerners is so great that it surpasses their will to live. They are willing to sacrifice all they built up in Europe in order to demographically obliterate us goys.
    , @Anonymous
    Jews and Jewish organizations in Germany have been the loudest advocates for Merkel's open border policy. Obviously they don't share your sentiment. Of course having a second passport may also affect their perspective.
  3. cranberry says:

    First this:

    Nobody had cared when, from 1943 onward, Jews were hauled through the elegant avenues of Milan to the station. They were unloaded from trucks and packed into wooden boxcars made to transport six horses but used for some 80 doomed human beings.

    nobody cared. Okay.

    Then at the end this:

    Nobody saw the Jews. Nobody wanted to see them. Indifference kills.

    nobody saw. Okay

    So, nobody cared because nobody saw?

    And somewhere in between the writer says there is no analogy. Okay.

    And Hungary is indifferent? Huh? What?

    Hungary is adamantly opposed, not indifferent.

    This guy just makes shite up as he goes along.

    How can one be both hostile and indifferent?

    This is such drivel.

    Read More
  4. Priss Factor [AKA "skiapolemistis"] says:

    Didn’t Zio-America and EU allies blitzkrieg the Middle East that caused all this mess?

    Where was Cohen when Zio-Western foreign policy was treating the Middle East like the Nazis treated the Eastern Front?

    These Jews are incredible. Such moral narcissist a**holes completely blind to their own aggression and evil.

    If Cohen wants to honor the Holocaust, then do something about the consequences of the Nakba.

    If it weren’t for Jewish-globalist plan for the Middle East — Iraq, Libya, and Syria —, this mess wouldn’t be happening.

    But everyone is too afraid to say anything critical about Jews. But Jews, with all their holocutzpah act like they are the shining light of morality onto the world.

    Sickening.

    “NYT op-ed columnist Roger Cohen argues for importing vast numbers of anti-Semites into Europe as payback for Christendom’s past anti-Semitism.”

    I don’t know why Sailer worries that the invaders are anti-semites when the Jewish semites don’t care that they are anti-white and anti-Christian.

    Don’t care about those who don’t care about you.

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  5. Travis says:
    @Mike Sylwester
    I feel sorry for the Jews who have remained in Europe.

    They need to emigrate right away.

    Especially the Jews in Germany.

    Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu declared that European Jews should embark on a “mass immigration” to Israel. “Israel is your home. We are preparing and calling for the absorption of mass Jewish immigration from Europe,” –

    Netanyahu said his government was to adopt a $45 million plan “to encourage the absorption of 750,000 Jewish immigrants from Europe. “To the Jews of Europe and to the Jews of the world I say that Israel is waiting for you with open arms,”

    Read More
    • Replies: @SFG
    Sure! Anti-semitism in Europe is great for Israel, they get more immigrants of the sort they actually want.
    , @anonymous
    Wasn't Israel saying they were too small and resources too limited to take *any* refugees, 2 weeks ago?

    Now they are waiting 'with open arms' for 750,000 new citizens from Europe?

    Maybe Roger Cohen should do an article on this. Let's see if Roger can work up some of his pompous moral outrage about this situation.

    It's jaw-dropping, bald hypocrisy, and there is really no way to rationalize your way around it.
    , @Hail

    Netanyahu declared that European Jews should embark on a “mass immigration” to Israel
     
    Does he want any from the USA?
  6. @ren

    Nobody had cared when, from 1943 onward, Jews were hauled through the elegant avenues of Milan to the station. They were unloaded from trucks and packed into wooden boxcars made to transport six horses but used for some 80 doomed human beings.
     
    Most people did not know what was going on. They had a media much like we do that lie, lie, lie for the current political regime. The man on the street sure as hell didn't think the men, women and children were headed to the gas chambers.

    A very large majority of Italy’s Jews survived World War II, because in fact Italians were not indifferent and many went to great lengths, at considerable danger to themselves, to save Jews.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Doug
    > A very large majority of Italy’s Jews survived World War II, because in fact Italians were not indifferent and many went to great lengths, at considerable danger to themselves, to save Jews.

    Including the Italian fascists themselves. Jews were heavily represented in Mussolini's administration, up to and including his mistress, "the first lady of fascism". After the Nazis basically took over the Italian government in the late 30s, the fascists went to great lengths to resettle Jews in other countries before German racial laws were applied.
    , @tbraton
    The numbers seem to bear you out. Out of an estimated 40,000 Jews in Italy just prior to WWII, it is estimated that 8,000 lost their lives. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust#Victims That was the sense I had based on my reading of the literature of WWII. If that same percentage had applied to the 8.8 million Jews estimated to be in Europe prior to WWII, the magic number for the Holocaust for all of Europe would have been 1.76 million, not 6 million. That's close to the number of Armenians killed by the Turks during WWI. Here is what Wikipedia says about Cambodia under Pol Pot: "In all, an estimated 1 to 3 million people (out of a population of slightly over 8 million) died due to the policies of his four-year premiership."

    "many went to great lengths, at considerable danger to themselves, to save Jews."

    If the tables were reversed, how many Jews would have risked their own lives to save Christians? I doubt very many would have been so brave. (I'm not Italian, btw.) I don't recall too many American Jews clammering for the U.S. to stop the killing of Cambodians in the 70's.

    , @San Fernando Curt
    While historically correct, you're politically incorrect. And today, that's all that matters.
    , @Tracy
    @ren wrote: "A very large majority of Italy’s Jews survived World War II, because in fact Italians were not indifferent and many went to great lengths, at considerable danger to themselves, to save Jews."

    Undoubtedly Catholics all. And what are the thanks Italian Catholics get? Their Pope is smeared, Christianity is blamed for the "Holocaust," etc. Etc. Catholics would likely save Jews again if the situation were to arise, because that's what Catholics do. But the outcome would probably be the same: nothing but grief and blame in return.
  7. Lot says:

    “Or something” is right. The open boarders preeners are so muddled in their thought, trying to draw out and explicitly express their argument is impossible without absurdity. I think it is closer to:

    The Holocaust was a bad thing, therefore Europe should welcome 100 million or more low-IQ, low-educated, culturally hostile aliens and immediately grant them the full and costly privileges of citizenship, and do so with a smile!

    Read More
  8. Bill B. says:

    This is beyond ridiculous given all the water that has gone under the bridge since the Holocaust.

    In Michael Frayn’s three decade old novel The Tin Men one character is trying to use a computer to write newspaper stories, always not quite succeeding. Here finally the progressive story generating computer has obviously reached a kind of apotheosis.

    Surely no real human being not claiming to be an actual enemy will write such witless tripe nor openly display such undisguised loathing of Europe and particularly Britain.

    The Holocaust was a terrible thing but it is time I think to put it to one side. Cohen celebrates it with the sensual delight of an old patriarch complaining of his daughter’s debauchery. He reveals too much.

    Read More
  9. Jefferson says:

    I am sure most of the Muslim refugees flooding into Europe would be extremely offended if they found out SWPL Liberals at The New York Times are comparing them to Jews.

    This Roger Cohen guy should know that in the Islamic world there is nothing worst than being compared to a Jew. In the Islamic world even terrorists, murderers, rapists, and pedophiles are seen in a higher light than Jews.

    Read More
    • Agree: International Jew
    • Replies: @unpc downunder
    That's why flamboyant homosexuals, butch lesbians and unconvincing transsexuals should be given preferential treatment for border control jobs. When horny young Middle Eastern guys turn up at the border of a western country the last thing they want to see to is a 6 foot 2 male to female transsexual with a bad attitude from a dodgy surgery job he/she got in Thailand.
  10. “The indifference of Hungary, with its self-appointed little exercise in bigotry”

    How dare Hungary appoint itself the arbiter of its own policies, that job rightfully belongs to the Cohens.

    Read More
  11. It is intellectually offensive to compare the current migrant invasion to the Holocaust. It is time to call out these charlatans who are using a tragic historical event to advance their own perverse ideological cultist view.

    BTW, according to a supposedly secret document, Europe is planning to deport thousands of failed refugee claimants. Cue the “tear-jerking” saturated media coverage of how that is evil.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Hail

    It is intellectually offensive to compare the current migrant invasion to the Holocaust.
     
    The stated Nazi purpose of the mass internment of Jews during the war years was (1) neutralizing the perceived sabotage risk from a perceived enemy (exactly as in U.S. concentration camps for Japanese), and (2) the ultimate Jewish "depatriation" out of Europe -- deportation.

    The current "refugee" problem is the precise opposite on both counts, encouraging a certain-to-be-seditious element, namely millions of Semites and others, to come to the heart of Europe.
  12. Drake says:

    Jews are often saying that the Holocaust was met with indifference.

    But actually the Holocaust is one of the few genocides which was put a stop to by armed force, and those responsible put on trial and punished.

    Compare that to the Holodomor, where the world truly did nothing, and Kaganovich was allowed lived to the age of 97. Or to the Armenian genocide, where most of those responsible were released without punishment and only a couple of the top perpetrators later killed by Armenian vigilantes. Or the Great Leap Forward, for which Mao never suffered.

    Jews complain as if they had it especially bad, when in fact they are one of the only victims of genocide to ever have seen justice. And that justice was achieved because of the efforts and sacrifices of gentiles in fighting the Nazis. Tens of millions of whom gave their lives, with the result that Jews may live and see a measure of justive, and Cohen calls that indifference.

    Maybe he is the one indifferent to gentile lives.

    Read More
    • Replies: @ben tillman

    Maybe he is the one indifferent to gentile lives.
     
    He's not indifferent. He's actively hostile.
    , @Hail

    actually the Holocaust is one of the few genocides which was put a stop to by armed force
     
    Aha, there it is.

    The way the common man in the West of the 2010s looks back on WWII, after so many years of Hollywood training and dumbing down, is something about like this:. "WWII, 1939-1945. A war started by an anti-Jewish maniac in which that maniac, Hitler, invaded a series of countries, solely to kill their Jews, until a heroic coalition led by Britain and then the USA got angry about the killing of Jews and said, 'Stop! No more killing Jews!' Eventually the heroic Americans and other defeated Hitler and stopped the killing of Jews."

  13. SFG says:
    @Mike Sylwester
    I feel sorry for the Jews who have remained in Europe.

    They need to emigrate right away.

    Especially the Jews in Germany.

    Actually, the German Jews’ll last a little longer–Germany will probably be more reluctant to sell them out than its neighbors, for obvious reasons.

    That said, allowing guilt over something your grandparents did to make you screw over your kids…I don’t know, I get the logic, but it seems really dumb. I don’t think it will be the end of the German nation, but they’re going to have a permanent ethnic underclass the way we do.

    Read More
    • Replies: @415 reasons
    Looking for a silver lining, perhaps once Europe has a permanent criminal underclass their murder rates will rise enough to shut liberals up about gun control to some extent.
  14. SFG says:
    @C. Van Carter
    "The indifference of Hungary, with its self-appointed little exercise in bigotry"

    How dare Hungary appoint itself the arbiter of its own policies, that job rightfully belongs to the Cohens.

    Was that an obscure Bela Kuhn reference?

    Read More
  15. SFG says:
    @Travis
    Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu declared that European Jews should embark on a “mass immigration” to Israel. "Israel is your home. We are preparing and calling for the absorption of mass Jewish immigration from Europe," -

    Netanyahu said his government was to adopt a $45 million plan "to encourage the absorption of 750,000 Jewish immigrants from Europe. "To the Jews of Europe and to the Jews of the world I say that Israel is waiting for you with open arms,"

    Sure! Anti-semitism in Europe is great for Israel, they get more immigrants of the sort they actually want.

    Read More
    • Replies: @El-Ahrairah
    If Jews flee Europe it'll be to the U.S. not Israel.
  16. WGG [AKA "World's Greatest Grandson"] says:

    What was the point of the creation of the state of Israel if world Jewry still gets to stay in every other country and guilt trip them into demise with the magical H word? Pick one. Can’t have your cake and eat it, too.

    Read More
  17. Drake says:

    Yesterday’s “scum” often proves to be the invigorating lifeblood of renewal. Churchill opposed the Aliens’ Act of 1905, designed to control Jewish immigration, on the grounds that “free entry and asylum” were practices from which Britain “has so greatly gained.”

    What did the women of Rotherham gain from a policy of “free entry and asylum”?

    Read More
  18. Nobody had cared when in 2011 the Free Syrian Army was calling for Syrian volunteers. And in 2012, 2013, 2014 and now 4,000,000 volunteer to fight for a free ride in Europe rather than “freedom” (Obama’s version) in 2015. Maybe Roger the Lion of New York would like to sign up? Surely he’s not indifferent.

    Read More
  19. George says:

    Isn’t this a pointless discussion? The migrants are going to come even if Hungary tosses some razor wire around. And they are going to stay even if not given refugee status as there is nowhere to go back to. An idea that might work is rebuild the housing in Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan ect. But we are still working on blowing it up.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Doug
    > And they are going to stay even if not given refugee status as there is nowhere to go back to.

    I think the sensible solution is to pay a peaceful, stable, middle-income country to accept migrants. Syrian refugees with 6th grade educations have no hope of competing in European labor markets. They're doomed to generations of social marginalization and alienation. That's both bad for their long-term self-satisfaction as well as the budgets of the generous welfare states that will support them.

    A country like Morocco would be more than willing to accept refugees for a fraction of the ultimate cost to support them in Northern Europe. There's more than enough to go around to compensate/bribe the electorate and government, as well as allocate resources for each refugee's comfortable resettlement. The refugees would have a much higher chance of integration and economic self-support, particularly if the destination country has a similar cultural to their origin. If they're truly fleeing war-zones for their own safety, and not just economic migrants, they should be more than happy to resettle in a peaceful but poor country.
  20. rod1963 says:
    @Mike Sylwester
    I feel sorry for the Jews who have remained in Europe.

    They need to emigrate right away.

    Especially the Jews in Germany.

    I don’t, since most of them support the Muslim onslaught. Doubt it? Where are the Jewish marches protesting them. Oh that’s right they only protest when the Goys demand a stop to immigration.

    So when the Muzzies start to tear into the Jewish communities in Europe, well the Jews brought it on themselves. And in France it’s already led to Jews fleeing. Yet French Jews still support Muslim immigration.

    Their hatred of Westerners is so great that it surpasses their will to live. They are willing to sacrifice all they built up in Europe in order to demographically obliterate us goys.

    Read More
  21. Yak-15 says:

    “Sound familiar?”

    Besides the use of a trite, incomplete sentence that drips smugly of misplaced moral outrage, I do find this piece familiar. Yet again we are led to an understanding that immigration enhances the vitality of a nation while we avoid any facts to support this conclusion.

    This is the literary equivalent of painters trying to copy da Vinci. And equally as empty.

    Read More
    • Replies: @the raven
    Jews have been at this game for a long time. It was the lavishly-funded Jewish organizations that relentlessly lobbied for overturning the restrictionist 1924 Immigration Act, which they finally achieved in 1965. Their arguments were notably disingenuous, as they frequently attacked a straw-man notion of "Nordic Superiority". The actual supporters of the 1924 act hardly mentioned anything like racial superiority, and instead emphasized the fairness of preserving the ethnic composition of the country at that time.

    The largely Jewish immigration advocates in that period also explicitly argued against any kind of national interest in crafting an immigration policy. Thus they successfully overturned a skills-based policy in favor of simply bringing in as many immigrants as possible, as an end in itself. Jewish intellectuals conceived this as an ethnocentric strategy of diluting the native stock of their host country, but disguised that aspect in arguments to the public, presenting it in liberal, universalist terms.
  22. AKAHorace says:

    Steve,

    this is off topic, but you may be interested in

    http://www.cracked.com/blog/how-90s-pop-band-secretly-sold-nazism-to-america/

    Do not post on the comments thread if you feel it is a distraction.

    Read More
  23. Joe Walker says: • Website

    Yesterday’s “scum” often proves to be the invigorating lifeblood of renewal

    Kind of like how the Angles, Saxons and Jutes invigorated Celtic Britain.

    Read More
  24. Dennis Dale says: • Website

    In 2017, after entire regions become ungovernable, hostile colonies and the mass attacks on native Europeans in the cities begin in earnest, all abetted by a corrupt, degenerate elite:

    US President Donald Trump declared that white Europeans should embark on a “mass immigration” to the US. “America is your home. We are preparing and calling for the absorption of mass white immigration from Europe.”

    Trump said his government was to adopt a $145 million plan “to encourage the absorption of however many white Europeans take up the offer. “To the whites of Europe and of the world I say that the United States is waiting for you with open arms.”

    Read More
    • Replies: @Dennis Dale
    that's the second time I've put html code around a pair of paragraphs and only one is italicized. weird.
  25. Jim Sweeney says: • Website

    This Cohen Schmuck is not an American; I think he’s still a Brit though he lives in Brooklyn with his wife and children. He’s a typical Jewish lefty liberal bleeding heart who dislikes the US and the whites Americans who make his life comfortable, an ingrate like the rest of the elites. He should return to his native South Africa along with his wife and live among its vibrant citizenry with his kids. If he doesn’t want to do that, return to London and live there.

    Either way, get the fuck out of here. I am sick of ingrates who are essentially the same as illegals who refuse to assimilate.

    Read More
    • Replies: @celt darnell
    My understanding is that Cohen took US citizenship and, as both the US and UK now stupidly accept dual citizenship, we're both stuck with him. (He wasn't born in South Africa -- but his parents were).

    But yes, he hates the British with a white-hot hate and he loathes white Americans too.

    So I'd concede he's the worst person we've ever sent across the pond. He is truly vile.

    Alas, he's moved back to London.

    So here's hoping he encounters some of the "vibrancy" he's been promoting.

    Preferably when there are no police around to save him....
  26. anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Travis
    Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu declared that European Jews should embark on a “mass immigration” to Israel. "Israel is your home. We are preparing and calling for the absorption of mass Jewish immigration from Europe," -

    Netanyahu said his government was to adopt a $45 million plan "to encourage the absorption of 750,000 Jewish immigrants from Europe. "To the Jews of Europe and to the Jews of the world I say that Israel is waiting for you with open arms,"

    Wasn’t Israel saying they were too small and resources too limited to take *any* refugees, 2 weeks ago?

    Now they are waiting ‘with open arms’ for 750,000 new citizens from Europe?

    Maybe Roger Cohen should do an article on this. Let’s see if Roger can work up some of his pompous moral outrage about this situation.

    It’s jaw-dropping, bald hypocrisy, and there is really no way to rationalize your way around it.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Doug
    I agree its hypocrisy for Roger Cohen, but its certainly not for Netanyahu or the Israeli government. Likud actively supports most European right-wing and immigration restrictionist parties. The Israeli man on the street certainly don't want Jihadi refugees in Tel Aviv, but neither do they in Paris. They recognize that having people actively rooting for your country wiped off the map make up a significant portion of the electorate of a nuclear power and permanent Security Council member is a pretty bad thing.
    , @Glaivester
    Wasn’t Israel saying they were too small and resources too limited to take *any* refugees, 2 weeks ago?

    Now they are waiting ‘with open arms’ for 750,000 new citizens from Europe?


    It's too small and limited to take any refugees who could not be turned into Israelis. Jewish immigrants from Europe who can add to Israel without changing it s character are something different.

    This is only hypocritical if Israel pretended that it didn't distinguish between Jews and non-Jews.
  27. Dennis Dale says: • Website
    @Dennis Dale
    In 2017, after entire regions become ungovernable, hostile colonies and the mass attacks on native Europeans in the cities begin in earnest, all abetted by a corrupt, degenerate elite:

    US President Donald Trump declared that white Europeans should embark on a “mass immigration” to the US. “America is your home. We are preparing and calling for the absorption of mass white immigration from Europe.”

    Trump said his government was to adopt a $145 million plan “to encourage the absorption of however many white Europeans take up the offer. “To the whites of Europe and of the world I say that the United States is waiting for you with open arms.”

    that’s the second time I’ve put html code around a pair of paragraphs and only one is italicized. weird.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Mike Sylwester
    that’s the second time I’ve put html code around a pair of paragraphs and only one is italicized. weird.

    Your last two paragraphs are italicized on my screen.
  28. 1. In 1943 when the Germans began to send the Italian Jews to the concentration camps, Italy was occupied by a very hostile Germany (who believed they had been betrayed by the Italians). It is more likely that the Milanese were utterly terrified of the Germans rather than indifferent.
    2. As for the Churchill quote, why look at 1905 ? Why not look at 1054 when the Turks defeated the Byzantines at Manzikert and utterly supplanted the Greeks in Asia Minor. Why not look at that immigration?
    3. People like Cohen are very indifferent to what happens to the Europeans, including what will happen to the European Jews. And yes, he is right – that indifference will kill. It has already killed many including a 6 year old Jewish girl in Toulouse. Liberal media and “elite” indifference to what happens to ordinary people who cannot afford to live on Martha’s Vineyard will kill those ordinary people. But Roger is indifferent and indifference kills.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Some distant relative of my wife was in the Italian Army in 1943. When the Americans landed, he went home. He wasn't going to fight the Americans. The Germans then came to his house and marched him off. They shipped him to fight the Soviets on the Eastern Front, where he was captured by the Red Army. When the war was over, the Soviet commandant of the POW camp opened the gates and he was free to walk back to Italy. He got home about a year later.
    , @International Jew

    In 1943 when the Germans began to send the Italian Jews to the concentration camps, Italy was occupied by a very hostile Germany (who believed they had been betrayed by the Italians). It is more likely that the Milanese were utterly terrified of the Germans rather than indifferent.
     
    Quite right. Italy was about as easy on its Jews as anyone could hope. The bad stuff started once Italy became German occupied territory (same as with Hungary). More than you can say for Romania...

    In fact, you could say Italy was decisive in Germany's defeat. By screwing up in North Africa and the Balkans they drew in the German army. Germany's invasion of Russia was delayed a whole month, because of mopping up operations in Yugoslavia: with an extra month to fight, before the Russian rainy season and winter, Germany may well have defeated the USSR in 1941.

  29. Ivy says:

    Cohen put the world on notice about his wishes. To what extent are his views shared and acted upon by his landsmen?
    Now no one can say later that they didn’t see it coming. Then the world went back to sleep.

    Read More
  30. @SFG
    Sure! Anti-semitism in Europe is great for Israel, they get more immigrants of the sort they actually want.

    If Jews flee Europe it’ll be to the U.S. not Israel.

    Read More
  31. Anonym says:

    Listen Cohen, I’ll give you all the exemptions that you want regarding Ashkenazim or British Sephardim with immigration policy. But requiring Europeans to admit the world’s detritus because in your neuroticism you equate free movement of Jews with the free movement of another 6 billion people… my god, what an a$$hole. Our countries and our people are the reason Hitler didn’t complete his mission so STFU and show some respect.

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  32. Has Roger Cohen asked how many of the “refugees” Israel is admitting and welcoming?

    Read More
    • Replies: @International Jew
    Roger Cohen doesn't care much for Israel. I'm sure he'd want Israel to welcome all the Arab "refugees" in the world. So there's no inconsistency here.
  33. @cwhatfuture
    1. In 1943 when the Germans began to send the Italian Jews to the concentration camps, Italy was occupied by a very hostile Germany (who believed they had been betrayed by the Italians). It is more likely that the Milanese were utterly terrified of the Germans rather than indifferent.
    2. As for the Churchill quote, why look at 1905 ? Why not look at 1054 when the Turks defeated the Byzantines at Manzikert and utterly supplanted the Greeks in Asia Minor. Why not look at that immigration?
    3. People like Cohen are very indifferent to what happens to the Europeans, including what will happen to the European Jews. And yes, he is right - that indifference will kill. It has already killed many including a 6 year old Jewish girl in Toulouse. Liberal media and "elite" indifference to what happens to ordinary people who cannot afford to live on Martha's Vineyard will kill those ordinary people. But Roger is indifferent and indifference kills.

    Some distant relative of my wife was in the Italian Army in 1943. When the Americans landed, he went home. He wasn’t going to fight the Americans. The Germans then came to his house and marched him off. They shipped him to fight the Soviets on the Eastern Front, where he was captured by the Red Army. When the war was over, the Soviet commandant of the POW camp opened the gates and he was free to walk back to Italy. He got home about a year later.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Massimo Heitor

    Some distant relative of my wife was in the Italian Army in 1943. When the Americans landed, he went home. He wasn’t going to fight the Americans.
     
    I have extended family that live in Italy and they all sided with the US in WWII.

    My Italian grandfather, immigrated to the US from Italy, fought in WWII for the US in Italy, and the people of Italy were broadly cheering for Americans and against Mussolini. Mussolini was of course, captured and executed by a group of Italians.

    The US was very wary of German and Japanese immigrants being anti-US in WWII, that was just not a concern with Italian Americans.
  34. Priss Factor [AKA "skiapolemistis"] says:

    rotfl

    how condescending, contrived, predictable, and self-serving.

    Future elitists win some ‘egalitarian’ and ‘humility’ points.

    http://www.openculture.com/2015/10/harvards-debate-team-loses-competition-to-inmates-in-new-york-prison-thanks-to-the-bard-prison-initiative.html

    “The showdown,” which revolved around the question of whether public schools should be allowed to turn away undocumented students, “took place at the Eastern correctional facility in New York, a maximum-security prison where convicts can take courses taught by faculty from nearby Bard College, and where inmates have formed a popular debate club.”

    “the fallacy of our underlying assumptions about such a matchup — the first (and most pernicious) being that criminals aren’t smart. If a definitive link between criminality and below-average intelligence exists, nobody has found it.”

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    "If a definitive link between criminality and below-average intelligence exists, nobody has found it."

    Journalists say stuff like that all the time without thinking to Google it. Of course, it turns out it was studied to dead decades ago: see 1985's "Crime and Human Nature" James Q. Wilson and Richard Herrnstein, and then see 1994's "The Bell Curve" by Herrnstein and Murray for data by IQ from the 1979 NLSY up through 1990.

    , @Popeye Goyle
    Has anyone seen video of the debate? I cannot find it. I just want to see if the debate is akin to the one Steve posted earlier this year, wherein the shrieking black women were breathily yelping out what sounded like a hip-hop cover of Bob Dylan's Subterranean Homesick Blues in lieu of an actual argument.
    , @PistolPete
    I read Michael Crichton's book "The Great Train Robbery" about a Victorian era train robbery pulled off before TNT was widespread. Success depended on finding the keys to the safe, requiring planning and cunning. It was mostly fictionalized version of the real event, but Crichton used a lot of non-fiction describing Victorian customs and criminal activity at the time. He also quoted studies of Victorian times, and contemporary ones (this is 1970 more or less) that stated IQ tests for prison inmates were equal or greater to the general population. It struck me as true because crime really did pay back then. Nowadays Al Capone wouldn't be a criminal, it would be much more profitable to go legit, unlike back then when you could become a kingpin. The average street thug couldn't put together a complex train robbery. Before prisons were warehouses for low level, low impulse control street thugs, prisons weren't necessarily filled with dummies. That definitely isn't true anymore, so maybe this whole post is irrelevant.
  35. @SFG
    Actually, the German Jews'll last a little longer--Germany will probably be more reluctant to sell them out than its neighbors, for obvious reasons.

    That said, allowing guilt over something your grandparents did to make you screw over your kids...I don't know, I get the logic, but it seems really dumb. I don't think it will be the end of the German nation, but they're going to have a permanent ethnic underclass the way we do.

    Looking for a silver lining, perhaps once Europe has a permanent criminal underclass their murder rates will rise enough to shut liberals up about gun control to some extent.

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  36. @Auntie Analogue
    Has Roger Cohen asked how many of the "refugees" Israel is admitting and welcoming?

    Roger Cohen doesn’t care much for Israel. I’m sure he’d want Israel to welcome all the Arab “refugees” in the world. So there’s no inconsistency here.

    Read More
  37. Doug says:
    @anonymous
    Wasn't Israel saying they were too small and resources too limited to take *any* refugees, 2 weeks ago?

    Now they are waiting 'with open arms' for 750,000 new citizens from Europe?

    Maybe Roger Cohen should do an article on this. Let's see if Roger can work up some of his pompous moral outrage about this situation.

    It's jaw-dropping, bald hypocrisy, and there is really no way to rationalize your way around it.

    I agree its hypocrisy for Roger Cohen, but its certainly not for Netanyahu or the Israeli government. Likud actively supports most European right-wing and immigration restrictionist parties. The Israeli man on the street certainly don’t want Jihadi refugees in Tel Aviv, but neither do they in Paris. They recognize that having people actively rooting for your country wiped off the map make up a significant portion of the electorate of a nuclear power and permanent Security Council member is a pretty bad thing.

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  38. @Priss Factor
    rotfl

    how condescending, contrived, predictable, and self-serving.

    Future elitists win some 'egalitarian' and 'humility' points.

    http://www.openculture.com/2015/10/harvards-debate-team-loses-competition-to-inmates-in-new-york-prison-thanks-to-the-bard-prison-initiative.html

    “The showdown,” which revolved around the question of whether public schools should be allowed to turn away undocumented students, “took place at the Eastern correctional facility in New York, a maximum-security prison where convicts can take courses taught by faculty from nearby Bard College, and where inmates have formed a popular debate club.”

    “the fallacy of our underlying assumptions about such a matchup — the first (and most pernicious) being that criminals aren’t smart. If a definitive link between criminality and below-average intelligence exists, nobody has found it.”

    “If a definitive link between criminality and below-average intelligence exists, nobody has found it.”

    Journalists say stuff like that all the time without thinking to Google it. Of course, it turns out it was studied to dead decades ago: see 1985′s “Crime and Human Nature” James Q. Wilson and Richard Herrnstein, and then see 1994′s “The Bell Curve” by Herrnstein and Murray for data by IQ from the 1979 NLSY up through 1990.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Peter Lund
    A new study from Finland is even better because it is a cohort study (no sampling problems).

    http://drjamesthompson.blogspot.dk/2015/06/dull-minds-and-criminal-acts.html
    , @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Taking this a step further, in his 1997 National Review critique of Stephen Gould's "The Mismeasure of Man", the late Philippe Rushton made mention that:

    "Finally, Gould continues to ridicule the "ape in some of us" hypothesis proposed by Cesare Lombroso (1836-1909), the founder of criminology. Lombroso argued that many criminals were throwbacks to man's ancestral past, and that "natural-born criminals" could be identified by anatomical signs of primitiveness. (Contrary to Gould, however, Lombroso also believed that criminal behavior could arise in "normal" men.)"

    , @PistolPete
    I read Michael Crichton's book "The Great Train Robbery" about a Victorian era train robbery pulled off before TNT was widespread. Success depended on finding the keys to the safe, requiring planning and cunning. It was mostly fictionalized version of the real event, but Crichton used a lot of non-fiction describing Victorian customs and criminal activity at the time. He also quoted studies of Victorian times, and contemporary ones (this is 1970 more or less) that stated IQ tests for prison inmates were equal or greater to the general population. It struck me as true because crime really did pay back then. Nowadays Al Capone wouldn't be a criminal, it would be much more profitable to go legit, unlike back then when you could become a kingpin. The average street thug couldn't put together a complex train robbery. Before prisons were warehouses for low level, low impulse control street thugs, prisons weren't necessarily filled with dummies. That definitely isn't true anymore, so maybe this whole post is irrelevant.
  39. @cwhatfuture
    1. In 1943 when the Germans began to send the Italian Jews to the concentration camps, Italy was occupied by a very hostile Germany (who believed they had been betrayed by the Italians). It is more likely that the Milanese were utterly terrified of the Germans rather than indifferent.
    2. As for the Churchill quote, why look at 1905 ? Why not look at 1054 when the Turks defeated the Byzantines at Manzikert and utterly supplanted the Greeks in Asia Minor. Why not look at that immigration?
    3. People like Cohen are very indifferent to what happens to the Europeans, including what will happen to the European Jews. And yes, he is right - that indifference will kill. It has already killed many including a 6 year old Jewish girl in Toulouse. Liberal media and "elite" indifference to what happens to ordinary people who cannot afford to live on Martha's Vineyard will kill those ordinary people. But Roger is indifferent and indifference kills.

    In 1943 when the Germans began to send the Italian Jews to the concentration camps, Italy was occupied by a very hostile Germany (who believed they had been betrayed by the Italians). It is more likely that the Milanese were utterly terrified of the Germans rather than indifferent.

    Quite right. Italy was about as easy on its Jews as anyone could hope. The bad stuff started once Italy became German occupied territory (same as with Hungary). More than you can say for Romania…

    In fact, you could say Italy was decisive in Germany’s defeat. By screwing up in North Africa and the Balkans they drew in the German army. Germany’s invasion of Russia was delayed a whole month, because of mopping up operations in Yugoslavia: with an extra month to fight, before the Russian rainy season and winter, Germany may well have defeated the USSR in 1941.

    Read More
  40. D. K. says:
    @ren

    Nobody had cared when, from 1943 onward, Jews were hauled through the elegant avenues of Milan to the station. They were unloaded from trucks and packed into wooden boxcars made to transport six horses but used for some 80 doomed human beings.
     
    Most people did not know what was going on. They had a media much like we do that lie, lie, lie for the current political regime. The man on the street sure as hell didn't think the men, women and children were headed to the gas chambers.

    If they were “doomed,” how is it that, more than seventy years later, Liliana Segre herself is still available to ruminate on those events? Can she tell us when and how her father was murdered, or does dying in detention equal murder, when it happened in a German-run camp rather than, say, a Soviet-run camp? We all are glad, regardless, that Liliana is alive and well, in 2015, along with hundreds of thousands of other Jewish Holocaust survivors, according to Israeli sources, which had put the survivors at just over a million, still, as of January 1, 2004. Not being an actuary, I can only guess at how many millions of such survivors there must have been, seventy years ago!?!

    Read More
    • Agree: Hail
    • Replies: @Jack D
    What is your point? That there was no Holocaust because the Germans did not kill every single last Jew in Europe? In 1939 there were 9.5 million Jews in Europe and over the next six years around 6 million were murdered, which left around 3.5 million alive. Most survivors were younger because the elderly didn't stand a chance.

    Growing up, I knew a lot of Holocaust survivors (including my parent). My father was one of 7 siblings, of whom 3 were murdered as well as his parents, (4 at Treblinka, 1 by Polish anti-Semites) and he himself barely made it to the end of the war (he weigh 45 kilos by the time he was liberated). And his family was lucky - I knew lots who were sole survivors out of 10 or more siblings. So does the fact that he survived mean that nothing at all happened? Does the fact that there were no eyewitnesses to their murder at Treblinka (because they were all murdered too) mean that they weren't?

    And to answer your question, yes, if you are put in a lice ridden camp with inadequate food and made to do hard labor and you die as a result, it's murder whether it's a Russian camp or a German camp.
  41. Doug says:
    @George
    Isn't this a pointless discussion? The migrants are going to come even if Hungary tosses some razor wire around. And they are going to stay even if not given refugee status as there is nowhere to go back to. An idea that might work is rebuild the housing in Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan ect. But we are still working on blowing it up.

    > And they are going to stay even if not given refugee status as there is nowhere to go back to.

    I think the sensible solution is to pay a peaceful, stable, middle-income country to accept migrants. Syrian refugees with 6th grade educations have no hope of competing in European labor markets. They’re doomed to generations of social marginalization and alienation. That’s both bad for their long-term self-satisfaction as well as the budgets of the generous welfare states that will support them.

    A country like Morocco would be more than willing to accept refugees for a fraction of the ultimate cost to support them in Northern Europe. There’s more than enough to go around to compensate/bribe the electorate and government, as well as allocate resources for each refugee’s comfortable resettlement. The refugees would have a much higher chance of integration and economic self-support, particularly if the destination country has a similar cultural to their origin. If they’re truly fleeing war-zones for their own safety, and not just economic migrants, they should be more than happy to resettle in a peaceful but poor country.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Paul Walker Most beautiful man ever...
    "I think the sensible solution is to pay a peaceful, stable, middle-income country to accept migrants".
    Australia just cut a deal with the Philippines to take its illegals, so yeah. I think the plan is to change Europe, so it won't be considered.
    BTW, I read that Hitler had the idea to ship jews to Madagascar. Pretty nice climate really.
  42. Doug says:
    @officious intermeddler
    A very large majority of Italy's Jews survived World War II, because in fact Italians were not indifferent and many went to great lengths, at considerable danger to themselves, to save Jews.

    > A very large majority of Italy’s Jews survived World War II, because in fact Italians were not indifferent and many went to great lengths, at considerable danger to themselves, to save Jews.

    Including the Italian fascists themselves. Jews were heavily represented in Mussolini’s administration, up to and including his mistress, “the first lady of fascism”. After the Nazis basically took over the Italian government in the late 30s, the fascists went to great lengths to resettle Jews in other countries before German racial laws were applied.

    Read More
    • Replies: @cwhatfuture
    What is really strange is that there was a little mountain town in southern Italy, San Nicandro, which had a mass conversion of their population to Judaism during the War and after the war, moved to Israel.
    , @Former Darfur
    In point of fact Italy was especially keen on supporting the Zionist ideal, and encouraging Jews to go to Palestine. Remember, the problem that the Zionists had was that Jews did not want to go to a miserable patch of Middle Eastern desert when they had prosperity in Europe and AMerica, and indeed, for many, even in the Soviet Union. An Israeli named Lenni Brenner wrote a book on it, Zionism in the Age of the Dictators. It's still fairly easily available.
  43. anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    “Indifference Kills”

    One of the great mysteries of WWII, and perhaps one reason that Jews seem to go so irrational anywhere around it, is why all those Jews in Germany were so passive in marching into the death chambers. You hear almost no stories of Jews attempting to escape, plotting mass breakouts where “some will surely die but some might live”, and so on. Even in the face of overwhelming odds in most populations you would expect people to try. Heck Allied airman escaped from prison camps and made it back to Britain.

    So probably even the Jews themselves, much less anybody else, knew nothing about the gas chambers. Sure, everyone knew Jews were being disposed of their property and driven out of the country, etc., but that sort of thing has been all to common throughout history and it’s plenty hard for people who aren’t there to do anything about it. The Armenians were marched a long way, the Greeks on the quay in 1922, etc., so sad, sigh.

    Mildly interesting: Mass escapes from German POW camps. Sounds like there were 13 mass breakouts, with only 12 men making it successfully all the way back home.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Former Darfur
    One of the great mysteries of WWII, and perhaps one reason that Jews seem to go so irrational anywhere around it, is why all those Jews in Germany were so passive in marching into the death chambers. You hear almost no stories of Jews attempting to escape, plotting mass breakouts where “some will surely die but some might live”, and so on. Even in the face of overwhelming odds in most populations you would expect people to try. Heck Allied airman escaped from prison camps and made it back to Britain.

    Ah, the sixty-four dollar question.

    The $128 question: Why (and with the exception testing the rule, the JDL, JFPO, etc.) given exactly the sort of history an armed population is best able to deter-as Solzhenitsyn rues in the Arkhipelag GULag-are Jews so consistently in favor of gun control? Kevin Macdonald explains that Jews tend to favor it because they fear the wrath of pitchforky peasants out of the central state's control more than they fear the central and powerful state itself. This means they take it as assumed that they will either themselves positively control said state or at least are certain they will always be able to prevent one too hostile to Jews from taking power. (The Third Reich was the singular exception in the last several hundred years so far as I can tell.)

    From this, in powers of two, we can pretty certainly derive the $256, $512.....all the way up, questions.
  44. @Drake
    Jews are often saying that the Holocaust was met with indifference.

    But actually the Holocaust is one of the few genocides which was put a stop to by armed force, and those responsible put on trial and punished.

    Compare that to the Holodomor, where the world truly did nothing, and Kaganovich was allowed lived to the age of 97. Or to the Armenian genocide, where most of those responsible were released without punishment and only a couple of the top perpetrators later killed by Armenian vigilantes. Or the Great Leap Forward, for which Mao never suffered.

    Jews complain as if they had it especially bad, when in fact they are one of the only victims of genocide to ever have seen justice. And that justice was achieved because of the efforts and sacrifices of gentiles in fighting the Nazis. Tens of millions of whom gave their lives, with the result that Jews may live and see a measure of justive, and Cohen calls that indifference.

    Maybe he is the one indifferent to gentile lives.

    Maybe he is the one indifferent to gentile lives.

    He’s not indifferent. He’s actively hostile.

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  45. @Dennis Dale
    that's the second time I've put html code around a pair of paragraphs and only one is italicized. weird.

    that’s the second time I’ve put html code around a pair of paragraphs and only one is italicized. weird.

    Your last two paragraphs are italicized on my screen.

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    • Replies: @Dennis Dale
    As I intended. On my browser (google chrome) it shows just the second paragraph italicized. Weirder still.
  46. Glaivester says: • Website
    @anonymous
    Wasn't Israel saying they were too small and resources too limited to take *any* refugees, 2 weeks ago?

    Now they are waiting 'with open arms' for 750,000 new citizens from Europe?

    Maybe Roger Cohen should do an article on this. Let's see if Roger can work up some of his pompous moral outrage about this situation.

    It's jaw-dropping, bald hypocrisy, and there is really no way to rationalize your way around it.

    Wasn’t Israel saying they were too small and resources too limited to take *any* refugees, 2 weeks ago?

    Now they are waiting ‘with open arms’ for 750,000 new citizens from Europe?

    It’s too small and limited to take any refugees who could not be turned into Israelis. Jewish immigrants from Europe who can add to Israel without changing it s character are something different.

    This is only hypocritical if Israel pretended that it didn’t distinguish between Jews and non-Jews.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Massimo Heitor

    This is only hypocritical if Israel pretended that it didn’t distinguish between Jews and non-Jews.
     
    Israel has always overtly distinguished or discriminated between Jews and non-Jews. The primary charter of the nation is for Jewish people, not for random strangers. I don't think there was ever the slightest bit of confusion about this.
  47. @Priss Factor
    rotfl

    how condescending, contrived, predictable, and self-serving.

    Future elitists win some 'egalitarian' and 'humility' points.

    http://www.openculture.com/2015/10/harvards-debate-team-loses-competition-to-inmates-in-new-york-prison-thanks-to-the-bard-prison-initiative.html

    “The showdown,” which revolved around the question of whether public schools should be allowed to turn away undocumented students, “took place at the Eastern correctional facility in New York, a maximum-security prison where convicts can take courses taught by faculty from nearby Bard College, and where inmates have formed a popular debate club.”

    “the fallacy of our underlying assumptions about such a matchup — the first (and most pernicious) being that criminals aren’t smart. If a definitive link between criminality and below-average intelligence exists, nobody has found it.”

    Has anyone seen video of the debate? I cannot find it. I just want to see if the debate is akin to the one Steve posted earlier this year, wherein the shrieking black women were breathily yelping out what sounded like a hip-hop cover of Bob Dylan’s Subterranean Homesick Blues in lieu of an actual argument.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Priss Factor
    Maybe it was just an essay contest.
    , @tbraton
    I had the same thought. In fact, I wonder if those beautiful babes from Townson U. went up to NY to train the inmates for their debate against Harvard.
  48. iSteveFan says:

    As I wrote in an earlier post, most warranties are non-transferable. When you move, the new owner of your home doesn’t get the warranty for whichever appliance might fail. So too it should be in regards to any nation’s collective guilt concerning the mistreatment of a class of people. The original people who were transgressed against might have some claims to reparations or privileged treatment. But those claims are not transferable to individuals who were not in that mistreated class. Therefore the mistreatment of Jews and other Europeans by fascists 70 years ago in no way entitles privileged treatment of middle eastern and African peoples of today.

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  49. Lagertha says:

    I know this is controversial (and fucked-up, but I am mourning) ; my cousin’s son was randomly murdered by a Roma/gypsie/’mustalainen’ in Finland. So, my feeling is: mainstream Americans and the media surely do not want anarchy, nihilism, extreme misogyny…to be some sort of economic/multicultural, aspirational zeitgeist ? Could it possibly make us all rich and happy in some distant/delusional time? Can we smart people wall us off from the crazy, now? How much time do we have?

    I want the mainstream media (and all the ‘yes’ types) to finally state their opinion on what I just mentioned (anarchy, nihilism…)…I mean, I am an immigrant (my parents) to the USA – the good and smart ones from the 60′s (science and engineering, btw) . Yet, my parents, who loved the USA, would never understand this need to defend anarchists, nihilists and misogynists, animal abusers lately.

    And, OT, if the U.S. is still smitten with Finnish schools, should Finns overlook the immigrants and the very children whose migrant parents insist on excusing them from Finnish education & society, wanting to go back to the stone age – (stoning anyone? – just like dodge ball!) not letting their children assimilate?

    So, don’t let these a-hole media people give some pussy arguments about how some culture is equal to ours. How they had it bad, but no one else had it so bad. Bad is not a one-upmanship game. Bad is bad and there is nothing but death.

    Let’s really weigh human and gender rights ( + animals, for me) on the most righteous scale of all scales: Whose life matters? Who gives a shit about your god when you are shot in the head? Why should I care? Does Darwinism win? How good are you, and, do I care? Are you worth living over that other person next to you?

    OK, I am bleeding to death emotionally and rationally over the fact that my cousin’s perfect, beautiful adult child was randomly killed by a sub-human. Yeah, said it.

    Teddy was a gorgeous toddler; grew up to be a kind, generous, gifted carpenter, looked like perfection, should have gone to Hollywood with his one- in-one-million-looks; and he had a beautiful baby daughter…

    Oh, and please don’t send me shit my way tonight or ever, don’t pile on me or tread on me…I am devastated and sad. Consider this my last post, I am too weary of humanity to even care…I just want NO MESSAGES. The world sucks and we all know it.

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    • Replies: @Priss Factor
    Targets the elites.

    Ask, 'whom do you serve? your people? or the foreign masses and the globalist masters?'
  50. @Doug
    > A very large majority of Italy’s Jews survived World War II, because in fact Italians were not indifferent and many went to great lengths, at considerable danger to themselves, to save Jews.

    Including the Italian fascists themselves. Jews were heavily represented in Mussolini's administration, up to and including his mistress, "the first lady of fascism". After the Nazis basically took over the Italian government in the late 30s, the fascists went to great lengths to resettle Jews in other countries before German racial laws were applied.

    What is really strange is that there was a little mountain town in southern Italy, San Nicandro, which had a mass conversion of their population to Judaism during the War and after the war, moved to Israel.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Lot

    What is really strange is that there was a little mountain town in southern Italy, San Nicandro, which had a mass conversion of their population to Judaism during the War and after the war, moved to Israel.
     
    This happened a few separate times in Russia, where people in a village would all decide to become Jews, and do their best to do so without the assistance of actual Jews. Some still have descendants around today keeping up the faith, others intermarried with actual Jews, and finally some just realized this is a strange thing to do and gave it up.
  51. Whiskey says: • Website

    This sort of thing is common among the elite. I’ve seen Rhoula Khoulaf in the Financial Times (a Muslim woman not a Jew) say the same thing as well as Wolfgang Munchau (not a Jew) and Simon Kuper (Jewish) and Barack Obama (famously not a Jew) in his public statements.

    At work is cheap moralizing. The same people judging those facing the Gestapo and SS would pee in their pants if faced by real threats. Germans DID try and stop the Holocaust. And they were tortured and executed: the White Rose group. A bunch of naive college kids. Bulgaria DID try and save its Jews on the theory that they had many enemies in the Balkans and Jews were smart and needed. France for all its guilt mongering had more survive than Holland where collaboration was widespread and Jew hunting a profitable past-time as well as for a certain infamous Hungarian named Soros. Who is by the way, proud of it.

    But comparing Jews, a high-IQ European minority with no great mass of kinsman waiting to invade and conquer is like saying since diet and exercise are good, why not go the full Karen Carpenter?

    There is a HUUUUGGGGEEE (Donald Trump voice) difference between persecuted Jews in WWII and a mass of invading Muslims coming to take over. Whats at work is cheap moral status mongering by people who HATE HATE HATE Bad Whites. And that’s not a Jewish thing — its a class thing. Upper Class Whites just want us Bad Whites eradicated and Muslim mass immigration is their tool.

    This is why we need to be realistic — we need every White male and female able and willing to fight for their lives at a drop of a hat. Just like in Israel.

    OT: the same liberals who want a government strong enough to force green policies and recycling the garbage are appalled when that government can send Jews to gas chambers. Don’t want a Holocaust again? Don’t have a strong central government and arm every citizen. Dodge City had no Holocaust. It might have been … interesting but certainly no gas chambers there.

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  52. @Doug
    > And they are going to stay even if not given refugee status as there is nowhere to go back to.

    I think the sensible solution is to pay a peaceful, stable, middle-income country to accept migrants. Syrian refugees with 6th grade educations have no hope of competing in European labor markets. They're doomed to generations of social marginalization and alienation. That's both bad for their long-term self-satisfaction as well as the budgets of the generous welfare states that will support them.

    A country like Morocco would be more than willing to accept refugees for a fraction of the ultimate cost to support them in Northern Europe. There's more than enough to go around to compensate/bribe the electorate and government, as well as allocate resources for each refugee's comfortable resettlement. The refugees would have a much higher chance of integration and economic self-support, particularly if the destination country has a similar cultural to their origin. If they're truly fleeing war-zones for their own safety, and not just economic migrants, they should be more than happy to resettle in a peaceful but poor country.

    “I think the sensible solution is to pay a peaceful, stable, middle-income country to accept migrants”.
    Australia just cut a deal with the Philippines to take its illegals, so yeah. I think the plan is to change Europe, so it won’t be considered.
    BTW, I read that Hitler had the idea to ship jews to Madagascar. Pretty nice climate really.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Eichmann planned to have the SS run the Madagascar Jewish settlement like a giant concentration camp.
  53. Priss Factor [AKA "skiapolemistis"] says:
    @Lagertha
    I know this is controversial (and fucked-up, but I am mourning) ; my cousin's son was randomly murdered by a Roma/gypsie/'mustalainen' in Finland. So, my feeling is: mainstream Americans and the media surely do not want anarchy, nihilism, extreme misogyny...to be some sort of economic/multicultural, aspirational zeitgeist ? Could it possibly make us all rich and happy in some distant/delusional time? Can we smart people wall us off from the crazy, now? How much time do we have?

    I want the mainstream media (and all the 'yes' types) to finally state their opinion on what I just mentioned (anarchy, nihilism...)...I mean, I am an immigrant (my parents) to the USA - the good and smart ones from the 60's (science and engineering, btw) . Yet, my parents, who loved the USA, would never understand this need to defend anarchists, nihilists and misogynists, animal abusers lately.

    And, OT, if the U.S. is still smitten with Finnish schools, should Finns overlook the immigrants and the very children whose migrant parents insist on excusing them from Finnish education & society, wanting to go back to the stone age - (stoning anyone? - just like dodge ball!) not letting their children assimilate?

    So, don't let these a-hole media people give some pussy arguments about how some culture is equal to ours. How they had it bad, but no one else had it so bad. Bad is not a one-upmanship game. Bad is bad and there is nothing but death.

    Let's really weigh human and gender rights ( + animals, for me) on the most righteous scale of all scales: Whose life matters? Who gives a shit about your god when you are shot in the head? Why should I care? Does Darwinism win? How good are you, and, do I care? Are you worth living over that other person next to you?

    OK, I am bleeding to death emotionally and rationally over the fact that my cousin's perfect, beautiful adult child was randomly killed by a sub-human. Yeah, said it.

    Teddy was a gorgeous toddler; grew up to be a kind, generous, gifted carpenter, looked like perfection, should have gone to Hollywood with his one- in-one-million-looks; and he had a beautiful baby daughter...

    Oh, and please don't send me shit my way tonight or ever, don't pile on me or tread on me...I am devastated and sad. Consider this my last post, I am too weary of humanity to even care...I just want NO MESSAGES. The world sucks and we all know it.

    Targets the elites.

    Ask, ‘whom do you serve? your people? or the foreign masses and the globalist masters?’

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  54. Priss Factor [AKA "skiapolemistis"] says:
    @Popeye Goyle
    Has anyone seen video of the debate? I cannot find it. I just want to see if the debate is akin to the one Steve posted earlier this year, wherein the shrieking black women were breathily yelping out what sounded like a hip-hop cover of Bob Dylan's Subterranean Homesick Blues in lieu of an actual argument.

    Maybe it was just an essay contest.

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  55. tbraton says:
    @officious intermeddler
    A very large majority of Italy's Jews survived World War II, because in fact Italians were not indifferent and many went to great lengths, at considerable danger to themselves, to save Jews.

    The numbers seem to bear you out. Out of an estimated 40,000 Jews in Italy just prior to WWII, it is estimated that 8,000 lost their lives. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust#Victims That was the sense I had based on my reading of the literature of WWII. If that same percentage had applied to the 8.8 million Jews estimated to be in Europe prior to WWII, the magic number for the Holocaust for all of Europe would have been 1.76 million, not 6 million. That’s close to the number of Armenians killed by the Turks during WWI. Here is what Wikipedia says about Cambodia under Pol Pot: “In all, an estimated 1 to 3 million people (out of a population of slightly over 8 million) died due to the policies of his four-year premiership.”

    “many went to great lengths, at considerable danger to themselves, to save Jews.”

    If the tables were reversed, how many Jews would have risked their own lives to save Christians? I doubt very many would have been so brave. (I’m not Italian, btw.) I don’t recall too many American Jews clammering for the U.S. to stop the killing of Cambodians in the 70′s.

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  56. @Doug
    > A very large majority of Italy’s Jews survived World War II, because in fact Italians were not indifferent and many went to great lengths, at considerable danger to themselves, to save Jews.

    Including the Italian fascists themselves. Jews were heavily represented in Mussolini's administration, up to and including his mistress, "the first lady of fascism". After the Nazis basically took over the Italian government in the late 30s, the fascists went to great lengths to resettle Jews in other countries before German racial laws were applied.

    In point of fact Italy was especially keen on supporting the Zionist ideal, and encouraging Jews to go to Palestine. Remember, the problem that the Zionists had was that Jews did not want to go to a miserable patch of Middle Eastern desert when they had prosperity in Europe and AMerica, and indeed, for many, even in the Soviet Union. An Israeli named Lenni Brenner wrote a book on it, Zionism in the Age of the Dictators. It’s still fairly easily available.

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  57. Priss Factor [AKA "skiapolemistis"] says:

    Mad Max Fury Toad.

    OK, Miller is still the king of road rage, but did he have to make something so ugly and slick at the same time.

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  58. Dennis Dale says: • Website
    @Mike Sylwester
    that’s the second time I’ve put html code around a pair of paragraphs and only one is italicized. weird.

    Your last two paragraphs are italicized on my screen.

    As I intended. On my browser (google chrome) it shows just the second paragraph italicized. Weirder still.

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    • Replies: @Mike Sylwester
    On my browser (google chrome) it shows just the second paragraph italicized.

    It seems that something is happening with Google Chrome. I used it all the time, but many, various problems accumulated during the past week, and now I cannot use it at all.
  59. tbraton says:
    @Popeye Goyle
    Has anyone seen video of the debate? I cannot find it. I just want to see if the debate is akin to the one Steve posted earlier this year, wherein the shrieking black women were breathily yelping out what sounded like a hip-hop cover of Bob Dylan's Subterranean Homesick Blues in lieu of an actual argument.

    I had the same thought. In fact, I wonder if those beautiful babes from Townson U. went up to NY to train the inmates for their debate against Harvard.

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  60. Hail says: • Website
    @ren

    Nobody had cared when, from 1943 onward, Jews were hauled through the elegant avenues of Milan to the station. They were unloaded from trucks and packed into wooden boxcars made to transport six horses but used for some 80 doomed human beings.
     
    Most people did not know what was going on. They had a media much like we do that lie, lie, lie for the current political regime. The man on the street sure as hell didn't think the men, women and children were headed to the gas chambers.

    Most people did not know what was going on

    Orthodox Holocaust history tells us that even Hitler himself “didn’t know what was going on”. But it’s even beyond that. Orthodox Holocaust history tells us that there was no coordination of the extermination program. Hilberg states that the genocide of the Jews, which we all know absolutely and certainly occurred, but which historians can’t quite explain, occurred through “an incredible meeting of minds, a consensus — mind reading by a far-flung bureaucracy“, “[W]hat began in 1941 was a process of destruction not planned in advance, not organized centrally by any agency.” (Raul Hilberg‘s words).

    If Hitler didn’t know, and if no one in Germany at all apparently knew except a handful of genocidal camp officials operating without orders and by ESP, how were ordinary Italians supposed to know?

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  61. Hail says: • Website
    @Travis
    Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu declared that European Jews should embark on a “mass immigration” to Israel. "Israel is your home. We are preparing and calling for the absorption of mass Jewish immigration from Europe," -

    Netanyahu said his government was to adopt a $45 million plan "to encourage the absorption of 750,000 Jewish immigrants from Europe. "To the Jews of Europe and to the Jews of the world I say that Israel is waiting for you with open arms,"

    Netanyahu declared that European Jews should embark on a “mass immigration” to Israel

    Does he want any from the USA?

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  62. @anonymous
    "Indifference Kills"

    One of the great mysteries of WWII, and perhaps one reason that Jews seem to go so irrational anywhere around it, is why all those Jews in Germany were so passive in marching into the death chambers. You hear almost no stories of Jews attempting to escape, plotting mass breakouts where "some will surely die but some might live", and so on. Even in the face of overwhelming odds in most populations you would expect people to try. Heck Allied airman escaped from prison camps and made it back to Britain.

    So probably even the Jews themselves, much less anybody else, knew nothing about the gas chambers. Sure, everyone knew Jews were being disposed of their property and driven out of the country, etc., but that sort of thing has been all to common throughout history and it's plenty hard for people who aren't there to do anything about it. The Armenians were marched a long way, the Greeks on the quay in 1922, etc., so sad, sigh.

    Mildly interesting: Mass escapes from German POW camps. Sounds like there were 13 mass breakouts, with only 12 men making it successfully all the way back home.

    One of the great mysteries of WWII, and perhaps one reason that Jews seem to go so irrational anywhere around it, is why all those Jews in Germany were so passive in marching into the death chambers. You hear almost no stories of Jews attempting to escape, plotting mass breakouts where “some will surely die but some might live”, and so on. Even in the face of overwhelming odds in most populations you would expect people to try. Heck Allied airman escaped from prison camps and made it back to Britain.

    Ah, the sixty-four dollar question.

    The $128 question: Why (and with the exception testing the rule, the JDL, JFPO, etc.) given exactly the sort of history an armed population is best able to deter-as Solzhenitsyn rues in the Arkhipelag GULag-are Jews so consistently in favor of gun control? Kevin Macdonald explains that Jews tend to favor it because they fear the wrath of pitchforky peasants out of the central state’s control more than they fear the central and powerful state itself. This means they take it as assumed that they will either themselves positively control said state or at least are certain they will always be able to prevent one too hostile to Jews from taking power. (The Third Reich was the singular exception in the last several hundred years so far as I can tell.)

    From this, in powers of two, we can pretty certainly derive the $256, $512…..all the way up, questions.

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  63. Hail says: • Website
    @Perspective
    It is intellectually offensive to compare the current migrant invasion to the Holocaust. It is time to call out these charlatans who are using a tragic historical event to advance their own perverse ideological cultist view.

    BTW, according to a supposedly secret document, Europe is planning to deport thousands of failed refugee claimants. Cue the "tear-jerking" saturated media coverage of how that is evil.

    It is intellectually offensive to compare the current migrant invasion to the Holocaust.

    The stated Nazi purpose of the mass internment of Jews during the war years was (1) neutralizing the perceived sabotage risk from a perceived enemy (exactly as in U.S. concentration camps for Japanese), and (2) the ultimate Jewish “depatriation” out of Europe — deportation.

    The current “refugee” problem is the precise opposite on both counts, encouraging a certain-to-be-seditious element, namely millions of Semites and others, to come to the heart of Europe.

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  64. Hail says: • Website
    @Drake
    Jews are often saying that the Holocaust was met with indifference.

    But actually the Holocaust is one of the few genocides which was put a stop to by armed force, and those responsible put on trial and punished.

    Compare that to the Holodomor, where the world truly did nothing, and Kaganovich was allowed lived to the age of 97. Or to the Armenian genocide, where most of those responsible were released without punishment and only a couple of the top perpetrators later killed by Armenian vigilantes. Or the Great Leap Forward, for which Mao never suffered.

    Jews complain as if they had it especially bad, when in fact they are one of the only victims of genocide to ever have seen justice. And that justice was achieved because of the efforts and sacrifices of gentiles in fighting the Nazis. Tens of millions of whom gave their lives, with the result that Jews may live and see a measure of justive, and Cohen calls that indifference.

    Maybe he is the one indifferent to gentile lives.

    actually the Holocaust is one of the few genocides which was put a stop to by armed force

    Aha, there it is.

    The way the common man in the West of the 2010s looks back on WWII, after so many years of Hollywood training and dumbing down, is something about like this:. “WWII, 1939-1945. A war started by an anti-Jewish maniac in which that maniac, Hitler, invaded a series of countries, solely to kill their Jews, until a heroic coalition led by Britain and then the USA got angry about the killing of Jews and said, ‘Stop! No more killing Jews!’ Eventually the heroic Americans and other defeated Hitler and stopped the killing of Jews.”

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  65. Beach says:

    From The Times of Israel:

    In August 2014, when Islamic State forces laid siege to Mount Sinjar in northern Iraq, slaughtering 10,000 or more Yazidis, and kidnapping thousands of girls aged 9-25 for abuse as sex slaves, Barir sent letters to 40 Knesset members. Not a single one responded. Now, a year later, as Israeli politicians debate the merits of absorbing Syrian refugees, Barir says the Yazidis have been left out of the discussion. “Without at all diminishing the Syrians’ suffering, they are refugees of a civil war. The Yazidis are refugees of a genocide.”

    I for one have had enough of the Roger Cohens of the world incessantly invoking the Holocaust, when present-day Israelis can’t be arsed to travel, by American standards, into a neighboring state to save eleven year old girls from gang rape and murder on a massive scale. Please continue to lecture us about how “indifference kills.”

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    • Replies: @Lot

    when present-day Israelis can’t be arsed to travel, by American standards, into a neighboring state
     
    Yeah, I mean it would be a real simple thing for a country of 7 million to pop into a country of 36 million, which is 600 miles away, with yet another larger country full of hostile muslims in between, in order to save a few thousand people they'd have no way to tell apart from the more numerous and hostile regular Muslim. I mean really, doesn't everyone in this day and age know how to tell a northern Iraqi Yazidi from a northern Iraqi Kurd or Sunni?

    No doubt the Israeli commandos parachuting into the mountains of Northern Iraq would be greeted as liberators.
  66. Mr. Anon says:

    A note to Roger Cohen: “Because Holocaust” is no longer an argument I recognize. You had your problems. We have ours. They aren’t the same problems, and they don’t have the same solutions. And if you think we should allow our people and our civilization to commit suicide to pay some kind of misguided penance for what happened to your people, then – sincerely and honestly – f**k you.

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  67. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    Of course, Israel signally refuses to take in Syrian ‘refugees,’ let alone ‘migrants’ from Africa.
    In fact, they built a huge great bug concrete wall around their country to keep them all out.

    Israel defines its citizenship by blood – just like Nazi Germany did.
    So a person of ‘Jewish blood’ who has never ever set foot in Israel and had no connection with that state can can claim instant citizenship on arrival.
    By contrast , the descendants of Palestinians whose forefathers had dwelled in that land continuously for millennia, but whose grandparents were summarily dispossessed and kicked out by the Israelis, has absolutely no claim on Israel whatsoever because he doesn’t have the ‘right blood’.

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  68. the raven says:
    @Yak-15
    "Sound familiar?"

    Besides the use of a trite, incomplete sentence that drips smugly of misplaced moral outrage, I do find this piece familiar. Yet again we are led to an understanding that immigration enhances the vitality of a nation while we avoid any facts to support this conclusion.

    This is the literary equivalent of painters trying to copy da Vinci. And equally as empty.

    Jews have been at this game for a long time. It was the lavishly-funded Jewish organizations that relentlessly lobbied for overturning the restrictionist 1924 Immigration Act, which they finally achieved in 1965. Their arguments were notably disingenuous, as they frequently attacked a straw-man notion of “Nordic Superiority”. The actual supporters of the 1924 act hardly mentioned anything like racial superiority, and instead emphasized the fairness of preserving the ethnic composition of the country at that time.

    The largely Jewish immigration advocates in that period also explicitly argued against any kind of national interest in crafting an immigration policy. Thus they successfully overturned a skills-based policy in favor of simply bringing in as many immigrants as possible, as an end in itself. Jewish intellectuals conceived this as an ethnocentric strategy of diluting the native stock of their host country, but disguised that aspect in arguments to the public, presenting it in liberal, universalist terms.

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  69. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    I had never read that Churchill quote before, but it doesn’t seem in the general character of the man, who to be frank, was racially prejudiced – just look at his remarks about Gandhi, India and his thwarted determination not to let Britain to become a ‘magpie nation’, back in the 1950s.
    During the siege of Sidney Street, back in the 1900s, which was instigated by Jewish anarchists, the siege house burned down, roasting to death the defenders. Churchill was Home Secretary at the time, and took personal charge of proceedings. He remarked that he would not ‘waste good English blood’ in trying to rescue the lives of the trapped foreigners.

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    • Replies: @celt darnell
    It's entirely possible that Cohen manufactured the quote. I've caught him making stuff up in the past.

    However, the British did offer asylum to a lot of Europeans during the nineteenth and early twentieth century (not as many as the US, of course, but a lot) so Churchill could have been referencing that.

    But there's the difference: Europeans.

    Not Muslims and not Africans.
  70. Lot says:
    @cwhatfuture
    What is really strange is that there was a little mountain town in southern Italy, San Nicandro, which had a mass conversion of their population to Judaism during the War and after the war, moved to Israel.

    What is really strange is that there was a little mountain town in southern Italy, San Nicandro, which had a mass conversion of their population to Judaism during the War and after the war, moved to Israel.

    This happened a few separate times in Russia, where people in a village would all decide to become Jews, and do their best to do so without the assistance of actual Jews. Some still have descendants around today keeping up the faith, others intermarried with actual Jews, and finally some just realized this is a strange thing to do and gave it up.

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    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    In Hungary a similar thing happened in the 16th or 17th centuries during the reformation. They were called Sabbatarians (szombatosok), and most of them were deported to Auschwitz. (It was complicated, around 1940 a high ranking official advised them to convert to Unitarianism, which they did, but later most of them were deported anyway.) The remnants of the community went to Israel after the war.

    The first president elected by the first free parliament after communism in 1990 was part-Sabbatarian.

  71. Lot says:
    @Beach
    From The Times of Israel:

    In August 2014, when Islamic State forces laid siege to Mount Sinjar in northern Iraq, slaughtering 10,000 or more Yazidis, and kidnapping thousands of girls aged 9-25 for abuse as sex slaves, Barir sent letters to 40 Knesset members. Not a single one responded. Now, a year later, as Israeli politicians debate the merits of absorbing Syrian refugees, Barir says the Yazidis have been left out of the discussion. “Without at all diminishing the Syrians’ suffering, they are refugees of a civil war. The Yazidis are refugees of a genocide.”
     
    I for one have had enough of the Roger Cohens of the world incessantly invoking the Holocaust, when present-day Israelis can't be arsed to travel, by American standards, into a neighboring state to save eleven year old girls from gang rape and murder on a massive scale. Please continue to lecture us about how "indifference kills."

    when present-day Israelis can’t be arsed to travel, by American standards, into a neighboring state

    Yeah, I mean it would be a real simple thing for a country of 7 million to pop into a country of 36 million, which is 600 miles away, with yet another larger country full of hostile muslims in between, in order to save a few thousand people they’d have no way to tell apart from the more numerous and hostile regular Muslim. I mean really, doesn’t everyone in this day and age know how to tell a northern Iraqi Yazidi from a northern Iraqi Kurd or Sunni?

    No doubt the Israeli commandos parachuting into the mountains of Northern Iraq would be greeted as liberators.

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    • Agree: Mike Sylwester
    • Replies: @Beach
    You mean that it is difficult to make your way deeply into a well-armed enemy country hundreds of miles away, in order to save a people in danger of genocide, when it's hard to tell them apart from the enemy? Those were the arguments given by the WW2 West against making saving European Jews their first priority, which has been used as a bludgeon by the JDL ever since.

    By the way, it's rather easy to tell them apart. Look for the blonde, weeping female children.

  72. backup says:

    Jarach, whose Jewish family arrived in Milan in the late 19th century, is assisted by Adhil Rabhi, a Moroccan immigrant. They showed me around the memorial, explained how each boxcar was filled with Jews and then shunted to an elevator that took them up to the platform

    Perhaps he should have brought him to “La Mamma Ciociara”, the monument commemorating the massive rape and plunder of Italian women by Moroccan troops in world war II.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marocchinate

    General Alphonse Juin allegedly declared before the battle, “For fifty hours you will be the absolute masters of what you will find beyond the enemy. Nobody will punish you for what you will do, nobody will ask you about what you will get up to.”

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  73. Prokop says:

    It should be obvious that you can have either Jews or muslims, not both. But when ideology triumphs over reality as thoroughly as it does in today’s Europe, one of the advantages is that not only you don’t have to choose between them, you can act as though both Jews and muslims are victims of malevolent forces of nativist hate.

    Case in point, Annual Colloquium on Fundamental Rights hosted by the European Commision a couple of days ago with a theme “Tolerance and respect: preventing and combating antisemitic and anti-Muslim hatred in Europe”. On the webpage of the event this is the closest they come to “naming the muslim”: “Another recent study showed that incitement and hostility rooted in theological and other discourse…”. The good news is that two coordinators, one for anti-semitism, one for anti-muslim hatred, were designated, so that will take care of things.

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  74. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Mike Sylwester
    I feel sorry for the Jews who have remained in Europe.

    They need to emigrate right away.

    Especially the Jews in Germany.

    Jews and Jewish organizations in Germany have been the loudest advocates for Merkel’s open border policy. Obviously they don’t share your sentiment. Of course having a second passport may also affect their perspective.

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  75. Its funny how everyone acts like WW 2 war all about the Jews. How many Italians were killed in WW2 and how many of those were innocent civilians? And what about the 13 million Russian civilians, the 30 million Chinese, the 3 Million Poles, and the millions of Germans who died – AFTER the War – in the ethnic cleansing and the Gulag?

    Nope. Everyone in WW2 was sitting around thinking about the Jews.

    As for the Migrant question – stupid is as stupid does. If the Euros want to destroy their countries by letting in millions of Arabs, that’s their look out. People like Cohen may be cheering it on, but they aren’t the ones doing it, the Euros are doing it to themselves.

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    • Replies: @Anonym
    You don't think people like Cohen editorializing this way in the NYT, shaping the discourse bear any responsibility?
    , @Massimo Heitor

    If the Euros want to destroy their countries by letting in millions of Arabs, that’s their look out. People like Cohen may be cheering it on, but they aren’t the ones doing it, the Euros are doing it to themselves.
     
    I disagree. Regular Europeans oppose mass immigration, but the elites are forcing it against popular will. They are actively "undermining" popular resistance to mass immigration and the destruction of their ethnic identity.

    And when the wave of immigrants is granted full voting rights, the native Europeans will have a harder time even influencing their own vote.
  76. @Lot

    What is really strange is that there was a little mountain town in southern Italy, San Nicandro, which had a mass conversion of their population to Judaism during the War and after the war, moved to Israel.
     
    This happened a few separate times in Russia, where people in a village would all decide to become Jews, and do their best to do so without the assistance of actual Jews. Some still have descendants around today keeping up the faith, others intermarried with actual Jews, and finally some just realized this is a strange thing to do and gave it up.

    In Hungary a similar thing happened in the 16th or 17th centuries during the reformation. They were called Sabbatarians (szombatosok), and most of them were deported to Auschwitz. (It was complicated, around 1940 a high ranking official advised them to convert to Unitarianism, which they did, but later most of them were deported anyway.) The remnants of the community went to Israel after the war.

    The first president elected by the first free parliament after communism in 1990 was part-Sabbatarian.

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  77. Prokop says:

    According to Messrs Goldberg and Wieseltier, the muslims are the proximate cause of the current anti-Semitism, but ultimately it is Europe’s fault. Europe failed to integrate them, Europe taught them to hate Jews, at least in part, and in the end it is just a continuation of a thousand-your-long tradition of European hatred towards Jews.

    Regarding the second video, I find it interesting that it is the two American Jews, Goldberg and Stephens, who show much greater animus towards Europe than the two European Jews.

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    • Replies: @Prokop
    For some reason I wasn't able to embed the videos I referred to in my previous comment, so I'll just post the links.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TW38xni5PxE

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLHCZKBwfmM

  78. Anonym says:
    @Honesthughgrant
    Its funny how everyone acts like WW 2 war all about the Jews. How many Italians were killed in WW2 and how many of those were innocent civilians? And what about the 13 million Russian civilians, the 30 million Chinese, the 3 Million Poles, and the millions of Germans who died - AFTER the War - in the ethnic cleansing and the Gulag?

    Nope. Everyone in WW2 was sitting around thinking about the Jews.

    As for the Migrant question - stupid is as stupid does. If the Euros want to destroy their countries by letting in millions of Arabs, that's their look out. People like Cohen may be cheering it on, but they aren't the ones doing it, the Euros are doing it to themselves.

    You don’t think people like Cohen editorializing this way in the NYT, shaping the discourse bear any responsibility?

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  79. @Steve Sailer
    "If a definitive link between criminality and below-average intelligence exists, nobody has found it."

    Journalists say stuff like that all the time without thinking to Google it. Of course, it turns out it was studied to dead decades ago: see 1985's "Crime and Human Nature" James Q. Wilson and Richard Herrnstein, and then see 1994's "The Bell Curve" by Herrnstein and Murray for data by IQ from the 1979 NLSY up through 1990.

    A new study from Finland is even better because it is a cohort study (no sampling problems).

    http://drjamesthompson.blogspot.dk/2015/06/dull-minds-and-criminal-acts.html

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  80. @Steve Sailer
    Some distant relative of my wife was in the Italian Army in 1943. When the Americans landed, he went home. He wasn't going to fight the Americans. The Germans then came to his house and marched him off. They shipped him to fight the Soviets on the Eastern Front, where he was captured by the Red Army. When the war was over, the Soviet commandant of the POW camp opened the gates and he was free to walk back to Italy. He got home about a year later.

    Some distant relative of my wife was in the Italian Army in 1943. When the Americans landed, he went home. He wasn’t going to fight the Americans.

    I have extended family that live in Italy and they all sided with the US in WWII.

    My Italian grandfather, immigrated to the US from Italy, fought in WWII for the US in Italy, and the people of Italy were broadly cheering for Americans and against Mussolini. Mussolini was of course, captured and executed by a group of Italians.

    The US was very wary of German and Japanese immigrants being anti-US in WWII, that was just not a concern with Italian Americans.

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  81. @Honesthughgrant
    Its funny how everyone acts like WW 2 war all about the Jews. How many Italians were killed in WW2 and how many of those were innocent civilians? And what about the 13 million Russian civilians, the 30 million Chinese, the 3 Million Poles, and the millions of Germans who died - AFTER the War - in the ethnic cleansing and the Gulag?

    Nope. Everyone in WW2 was sitting around thinking about the Jews.

    As for the Migrant question - stupid is as stupid does. If the Euros want to destroy their countries by letting in millions of Arabs, that's their look out. People like Cohen may be cheering it on, but they aren't the ones doing it, the Euros are doing it to themselves.

    If the Euros want to destroy their countries by letting in millions of Arabs, that’s their look out. People like Cohen may be cheering it on, but they aren’t the ones doing it, the Euros are doing it to themselves.

    I disagree. Regular Europeans oppose mass immigration, but the elites are forcing it against popular will. They are actively “undermining” popular resistance to mass immigration and the destruction of their ethnic identity.

    And when the wave of immigrants is granted full voting rights, the native Europeans will have a harder time even influencing their own vote.

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    • Replies: @Ace
    I think the people have more responsibility for their fate than your idea of elite manipulation suggests.

    First, European voters simply refuse to support salvationist parties at the polls. It's effortless, safe, and free. But the FN and the PVV measure success at the polls in single digits. Austrians just returned the usual suspects to power when they could have jammed a rocket up the noses of the immigration fanatics and sellouts.

    Second, a recent PEGIDA rally in Dresden was attended by 15,000 people. It was the largest of all PEGIDA rallies that day or week. On 10/10/15, between 100,000 and 250,000 Germans demonstrated in Berlin against the TTIP (trade agreement). I mean, that's got to speak volumes about what energizes Germans. Losing their country seems to be a low-priority problem. Outdated textbooks in the schools will probably bring 5,000,000 into the streets.
  82. @Dennis Dale
    As I intended. On my browser (google chrome) it shows just the second paragraph italicized. Weirder still.

    On my browser (google chrome) it shows just the second paragraph italicized.

    It seems that something is happening with Google Chrome. I used it all the time, but many, various problems accumulated during the past week, and now I cannot use it at all.

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  83. The ethnic cleansing of the Golan Heights proved beyond a doubt that Israel is not indifferent to the well being of Syrians:

    “During the war, between 80,000 and 131,000 Arab Druze and Circassians fled or were driven from the heights and around 7,000 remained in the Israeli-occupied territory. Israeli sources and the U.S. Committee for Refugees and Immigrants reported that much of the local population of 100,000 fled as a result of the war, whereas the Syrian government stated that a large proportion of it was expelled. Israel has not allowed former residents to return”. (Wikipedia)

    Since the start of the Syrian civil war, the Israelis have reemphasized their lack of indifference by repeatedly bombing Syria, and by providing support to radical Sunni jihadists.

    Fortunately, Russia, Iran, Hezbollah, and Lebanese Christians aligned with General Michel Aoun are also not indifferent. They are fighting and dying to free the Syrians from the terror and tyranny of ISIS and Al-Qaeda.

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  84. I am a lapsed Catholic but have a respect for and interest in Catholic teaching. One of the problems I have with Pope Francis calling for Europe to “throw open its borders” relates to the concept of “Counsels of Perfection.” In the bible, Jesus draws a distinction between what one must due to enter Heaven and what one must do to become “perfect”–a saint.

    In Matthew, starting at !0:17, we have an account of a wealthy young man who asked Jesus what he should do to obtain eternal life. Jesus told him to keep the commandments, listing them. When the young man pressed further, Christ told him: “If thou wilt be perfect, go sell what thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.” It is from this passage that the term “counsel of perfection” comes.

    The young man could not accept that advice, and yet the point was not that he would be denied heaven as a result. You can’t actually have a functioning society in which everyone follows the counsels of perfection, which include not only total poverty but celibacy. By their nature they are for a select few.

    Yet the pope, in calling for Western societies to throw open their borders to unassimilable and often hostile immigrants, is demanding that everyone submit to a counsel of perfection. “Take everything you have and hand it over to others.” And the people most in support of this are Leftists, not the least bit Christian–they just revel in the act of destroying their own societies!

    We have Mad Merkel in Germany and Mad Pope Francis in Rome.

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  85. Prokop says:
    @Prokop
    According to Messrs Goldberg and Wieseltier, the muslims are the proximate cause of the current anti-Semitism, but ultimately it is Europe's fault. Europe failed to integrate them, Europe taught them to hate Jews, at least in part, and in the end it is just a continuation of a thousand-your-long tradition of European hatred towards Jews.

    Regarding the second video, I find it interesting that it is the two American Jews, Goldberg and Stephens, who show much greater animus towards Europe than the two European Jews.



    For some reason I wasn’t able to embed the videos I referred to in my previous comment, so I’ll just post the links.

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  86. Jack D says:
    @D. K.
    If they were "doomed," how is it that, more than seventy years later, Liliana Segre herself is still available to ruminate on those events? Can she tell us when and how her father was murdered, or does dying in detention equal murder, when it happened in a German-run camp rather than, say, a Soviet-run camp? We all are glad, regardless, that Liliana is alive and well, in 2015, along with hundreds of thousands of other Jewish Holocaust survivors, according to Israeli sources, which had put the survivors at just over a million, still, as of January 1, 2004. Not being an actuary, I can only guess at how many millions of such survivors there must have been, seventy years ago!?!

    What is your point? That there was no Holocaust because the Germans did not kill every single last Jew in Europe? In 1939 there were 9.5 million Jews in Europe and over the next six years around 6 million were murdered, which left around 3.5 million alive. Most survivors were younger because the elderly didn’t stand a chance.

    Growing up, I knew a lot of Holocaust survivors (including my parent). My father was one of 7 siblings, of whom 3 were murdered as well as his parents, (4 at Treblinka, 1 by Polish anti-Semites) and he himself barely made it to the end of the war (he weigh 45 kilos by the time he was liberated). And his family was lucky – I knew lots who were sole survivors out of 10 or more siblings. So does the fact that he survived mean that nothing at all happened? Does the fact that there were no eyewitnesses to their murder at Treblinka (because they were all murdered too) mean that they weren’t?

    And to answer your question, yes, if you are put in a lice ridden camp with inadequate food and made to do hard labor and you die as a result, it’s murder whether it’s a Russian camp or a German camp.

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    • Replies: @Hail

    Jack D wrote:
    That there was no Holocaust because the Germans did not kill every single last Jew in Europe? In 1939 there were 9.5 million Jews in Europe and over the next six years around 6 million were murdered, which left around 3.5 million alive.
     
    I understand you to say that you have an ancestor who was interned and survived. I don't doubt that this person, along with millions of others, underwent hardship due to the deprivation of civil rights. However, and meaning no disrespect, this is an anecdote, and does not substitute for data.

    These Jewish population numbers of that era are foggy, and few have bothered to do the legwork and heavy lifting of actually looking into early 20th century censuses of Poland and things like that. One scholar did in the 1980s and his conclusions are not in line with what you claim. I invite you to take a look at his book, The Dissolution of East European Jewry by Dr. Walter Sanning (an American).

    Jews were already in the process of leaving Europe, and the shock of the war sped the process up. The available evidence does not suggest 6 million were killed at all. It is also certain that every single population in the warzone suffered a population loss, and the Jews were probably hit as hard as the worst-hit groups, such as so-called "Volksdeutsche" of Eastern Europe, Estonians, Latvians, and certain other groups of the east. A lot of groups had serious population losses, not only Jews.

    Also see here: Number of Jews in Palestine/Israel, 1915-2015 (Post #98 in that thread)


    The first major steps in the Jewish demographic conquest of Palestine occurred long before Jewish population losses in WWII.

    Another way to look at it:
    1915-1934 had two doublings (19 years),
    1934-1953 had two doublings (19 years),
    1953-2010 had two doublings (57 years)

    The 1940s was simply another step, expedited slightly by the shock of the war, in a process already long ongoing of the Jewish takeover of Palestine.
     

    , @JSM
    of whom 3 were murdered as well as his parents,

    How were they murdered? By what method?
    , @D. K.
    My point was that if Liliana survived her own deportation and the war-- and is still around, more than 70 years later, in fact, to ruminate about her experiences with reporters-- then everyone who was deported from that train station in Milan, during the war years, was not "doomed" as a result-- as the quoted column by Mr. Cohen falsely claims. Is such an obvious truth simply too literal for you to wrap your mind around it?

    Your own claim that the very young were the most likely to survive, and that that explains why so many hundreds of thousands of supposed Holocaust survivors still are alive, more than 70 years, now, after the war ended, is itself ludicrous, on the face of it. The very young, like the very old, are precisely those who are most likely to die from both disease and malnutrition, under such horrible circumstances. That is the nature of disease, vis-a-vis the human immune system.

    The very young also were of even less use to their captors as forced labor than were the elderly. Why were those young children not murdered straight away, instead of being allowed to take up limited camp space and valuable resources, especially food stuffs? It makes no sense-- and the Germans are alleged too have been cruelly, even inhumanly, logical and methodical about how they went about their supposedly pre-planned extermination of an entire race. In fact, it makes no sense, at all, that they should have left several million survivors.

    That strikes me, as a former lawyer, trained in History, to be very odd indeed. I also find it very odd that the supposed death toll just happens to be identical to the number quoted in the press, hundreds of times, before the war, all the way back to the late 19th Century. That numerical oddity is greatly compounded by the fact that the cited death toll, when officially propounded by the Nuremberg Tribunal, after the war, based upon Soviet claims, has remained unchanged, nearly seven decades later, when it is well known that the Soviet claims were materially false.

    The death figure at the premier "death camp" was claimed, after the war, to be four million dead. That figure, by now, has been whittled down to about a million and a half, with some estimates of even well under a million. Regardless, at least two and a half million supposed victims have since disappeared from the death rolls, in recent decades. Is it plausible that the toll of six million dead Jews remains inviolate, in the face of such an accounting correction? To you, apparently, it does, and anyone who doubts the reasonableness of such a conclusion is merely a "Holocaust denier!"

    The Hitler years and World War II, in general-- and what happened to European Jews, during those years, in particular-- are historical questions. They must be researched, studied, discussed, evaluated and, over time, reevaluated, just like any other historical questions-- let alone ones so vast and important. The organized Jewish effort to prosecute, and otherwise persecute, anyone who fails to bow down to the Jewish community's own orthodox recitation of facts and lessons about that important historical era shows me that-- to Organized Jewry and, apparently, to you-- the Holocaust is now a sacred totem: unique, transcendent and humanly unfathomable. To me, as an intelligent and a well-educated man, it is none of those things.
  87. Hail says: • Website
    @Jack D
    What is your point? That there was no Holocaust because the Germans did not kill every single last Jew in Europe? In 1939 there were 9.5 million Jews in Europe and over the next six years around 6 million were murdered, which left around 3.5 million alive. Most survivors were younger because the elderly didn't stand a chance.

    Growing up, I knew a lot of Holocaust survivors (including my parent). My father was one of 7 siblings, of whom 3 were murdered as well as his parents, (4 at Treblinka, 1 by Polish anti-Semites) and he himself barely made it to the end of the war (he weigh 45 kilos by the time he was liberated). And his family was lucky - I knew lots who were sole survivors out of 10 or more siblings. So does the fact that he survived mean that nothing at all happened? Does the fact that there were no eyewitnesses to their murder at Treblinka (because they were all murdered too) mean that they weren't?

    And to answer your question, yes, if you are put in a lice ridden camp with inadequate food and made to do hard labor and you die as a result, it's murder whether it's a Russian camp or a German camp.

    Jack D wrote:
    That there was no Holocaust because the Germans did not kill every single last Jew in Europe? In 1939 there were 9.5 million Jews in Europe and over the next six years around 6 million were murdered, which left around 3.5 million alive.

    I understand you to say that you have an ancestor who was interned and survived. I don’t doubt that this person, along with millions of others, underwent hardship due to the deprivation of civil rights. However, and meaning no disrespect, this is an anecdote, and does not substitute for data.

    These Jewish population numbers of that era are foggy, and few have bothered to do the legwork and heavy lifting of actually looking into early 20th century censuses of Poland and things like that. One scholar did in the 1980s and his conclusions are not in line with what you claim. I invite you to take a look at his book, The Dissolution of East European Jewry by Dr. Walter Sanning (an American).

    Jews were already in the process of leaving Europe, and the shock of the war sped the process up. The available evidence does not suggest 6 million were killed at all. It is also certain that every single population in the warzone suffered a population loss, and the Jews were probably hit as hard as the worst-hit groups, such as so-called “Volksdeutsche” of Eastern Europe, Estonians, Latvians, and certain other groups of the east. A lot of groups had serious population losses, not only Jews.

    Also see here: Number of Jews in Palestine/Israel, 1915-2015 (Post #98 in that thread)

    The first major steps in the Jewish demographic conquest of Palestine occurred long before Jewish population losses in WWII.

    Another way to look at it:
    1915-1934 had two doublings (19 years),
    1934-1953 had two doublings (19 years),
    1953-2010 had two doublings (57 years)

    The 1940s was simply another step, expedited slightly by the shock of the war, in a process already long ongoing of the Jewish takeover of Palestine.

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  88. GNP per capita, 2014 (World Bank)

    Qatar $93,397
    Kuwait $52,197
    UAE $42,522
    Israel $37031
    Saudi Arabia $25,409
    Bahrain $25,198
    Oman $20,832
    Czech Republic $19,553
    Slovakia $18,454
    Poland $14,422
    Hungary $13,902
    Romania $9,996
    Bulgaria $7,712

    Let me be blunt. The wealthy nations of East Europe caused this crisis with their bungled attempt to overthrow Syrian president Assad. They should follow the good example set by the impoverished nations of the Persian Gulf and Israel, and accommodate a maximum number of refugees.

    Anything else would be criminal indifference.

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  89. On Fascism and the Jews: when Mussolini, jackal-like, attacked the already defeated French, he was awarded a nice piece of real estate for his pains: the French Riviera. As anti-Semitic French mobs assaulted the Jewish quarter of Nice, the Carabinieri protected the Jews. In gratitude, the Jews of Nice raised funds to assist Italian victims of Allied bombings. It turns out that the history of the Second World War is rather more complex than the cartoon that Hollywood and the other mass media have been peddling for decades.

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  90. The Z Blog says: • Website

    I’m traveling this week so I’m reading a lot. I re-read Camp of the Saints and what’s amazing is just how much of our present reality is in that book.

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  91. @Jim Sweeney
    This Cohen Schmuck is not an American; I think he's still a Brit though he lives in Brooklyn with his wife and children. He's a typical Jewish lefty liberal bleeding heart who dislikes the US and the whites Americans who make his life comfortable, an ingrate like the rest of the elites. He should return to his native South Africa along with his wife and live among its vibrant citizenry with his kids. If he doesn't want to do that, return to London and live there.

    Either way, get the fuck out of here. I am sick of ingrates who are essentially the same as illegals who refuse to assimilate.

    My understanding is that Cohen took US citizenship and, as both the US and UK now stupidly accept dual citizenship, we’re both stuck with him. (He wasn’t born in South Africa — but his parents were).

    But yes, he hates the British with a white-hot hate and he loathes white Americans too.

    So I’d concede he’s the worst person we’ve ever sent across the pond. He is truly vile.

    Alas, he’s moved back to London.

    So here’s hoping he encounters some of the “vibrancy” he’s been promoting.

    Preferably when there are no police around to save him….

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  92. Jack D says:

    With all due respect (none), Sanning is full of shit. Every respected scholar puts the number of murdered Jews in the vicinity of 6 million and Sanning and a few other fruitcakes alone disagree. There are also those who deny the moon landings, the destruction on 9/11, that the earth is round, etc. – you’re always going to have deniers. Holocaust deniers such as Sanning get to their ridiculous numbers only by selectively ignoring all the data that doesn’t favor their crazy worldview.

    You’re right that anecdote doesn’t substitute for data, but I have to tell you that when your own father tells you about standing on the selection platform at Auschwitz-Birkenau in front of Dr. Mengele and seeing and smelling the crematoria at the end of the platform, that’s a pretty powerful anecdote. You make it seem so mild….” an ancestor who was deprived of his civil rights”. That doesn’t even begin to touch the horror and the fact that you attempt to distance yourself in this way shows that you have you a problem dealing with reality.

    But if there’s data you want, there’s plenty. Eichmann himself would have felt badly insulted and ashamed if you told him that only a million Jews had died.

    This BTW, doesn’t take away from the fact that others in Europe also experienced plenty of suffering. There was plenty of suffering to go around (though nothing like the genocide that was aimed at killing every last Jew in Europe. Hitler was planning a “Museum of the Extinct Race” for the Jews and the Jews only) but that’s no reason to deny or minimize the true extent of the Holocaust. Personally, I would feel a little worse about the suffering of the Volksdeutsche and the Latvians if so many had not signed up to be SS camp guards and all around Hitler fans, but that’s just me – I realize that many innocents were swept up as well (and when your other choice is Stalin then maybe Hitler doesn’t seem so bad), but karma is a bitch.

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    • Replies: @celt darnell
    RE: "This BTW, doesn’t take away from the fact that others in Europe also experienced plenty of suffering. There was plenty of suffering to go around (though nothing like the genocide that was aimed at killing every last Jew in Europe..."

    Wholly untrue. Hitler also intended to exterminate the Slavic peoples, too.

    He is actually quoted as telling his senior staff that the war against Russia, unlike that against the western powers, would be a war of extermination.

    The Nazis murdered almost three times as many Russian civilians as Jews.

    The Jews were not the only people targeted for extermination by the Nazis.

    , @BurplesonAFB
    "karma is a bitch" Sometimes. What do you think the Jews did to deserve the holocaust? Or does that only apply to groups of people you don't like?
  93. @Anonymous
    I had never read that Churchill quote before, but it doesn't seem in the general character of the man, who to be frank, was racially prejudiced - just look at his remarks about Gandhi, India and his thwarted determination not to let Britain to become a 'magpie nation', back in the 1950s.
    During the siege of Sidney Street, back in the 1900s, which was instigated by Jewish anarchists, the siege house burned down, roasting to death the defenders. Churchill was Home Secretary at the time, and took personal charge of proceedings. He remarked that he would not 'waste good English blood' in trying to rescue the lives of the trapped foreigners.

    It’s entirely possible that Cohen manufactured the quote. I’ve caught him making stuff up in the past.

    However, the British did offer asylum to a lot of Europeans during the nineteenth and early twentieth century (not as many as the US, of course, but a lot) so Churchill could have been referencing that.

    But there’s the difference: Europeans.

    Not Muslims and not Africans.

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  94. @Jack D
    With all due respect (none), Sanning is full of shit. Every respected scholar puts the number of murdered Jews in the vicinity of 6 million and Sanning and a few other fruitcakes alone disagree. There are also those who deny the moon landings, the destruction on 9/11, that the earth is round, etc. - you're always going to have deniers. Holocaust deniers such as Sanning get to their ridiculous numbers only by selectively ignoring all the data that doesn't favor their crazy worldview.

    You're right that anecdote doesn't substitute for data, but I have to tell you that when your own father tells you about standing on the selection platform at Auschwitz-Birkenau in front of Dr. Mengele and seeing and smelling the crematoria at the end of the platform, that's a pretty powerful anecdote. You make it seem so mild...." an ancestor who was deprived of his civil rights". That doesn't even begin to touch the horror and the fact that you attempt to distance yourself in this way shows that you have you a problem dealing with reality.

    But if there's data you want, there's plenty. Eichmann himself would have felt badly insulted and ashamed if you told him that only a million Jews had died.

    This BTW, doesn't take away from the fact that others in Europe also experienced plenty of suffering. There was plenty of suffering to go around (though nothing like the genocide that was aimed at killing every last Jew in Europe. Hitler was planning a "Museum of the Extinct Race" for the Jews and the Jews only) but that's no reason to deny or minimize the true extent of the Holocaust. Personally, I would feel a little worse about the suffering of the Volksdeutsche and the Latvians if so many had not signed up to be SS camp guards and all around Hitler fans, but that's just me - I realize that many innocents were swept up as well (and when your other choice is Stalin then maybe Hitler doesn't seem so bad), but karma is a bitch.

    RE: “This BTW, doesn’t take away from the fact that others in Europe also experienced plenty of suffering. There was plenty of suffering to go around (though nothing like the genocide that was aimed at killing every last Jew in Europe…”

    Wholly untrue. Hitler also intended to exterminate the Slavic peoples, too.

    He is actually quoted as telling his senior staff that the war against Russia, unlike that against the western powers, would be a war of extermination.

    The Nazis murdered almost three times as many Russian civilians as Jews.

    The Jews were not the only people targeted for extermination by the Nazis.

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  95. @Jack D
    With all due respect (none), Sanning is full of shit. Every respected scholar puts the number of murdered Jews in the vicinity of 6 million and Sanning and a few other fruitcakes alone disagree. There are also those who deny the moon landings, the destruction on 9/11, that the earth is round, etc. - you're always going to have deniers. Holocaust deniers such as Sanning get to their ridiculous numbers only by selectively ignoring all the data that doesn't favor their crazy worldview.

    You're right that anecdote doesn't substitute for data, but I have to tell you that when your own father tells you about standing on the selection platform at Auschwitz-Birkenau in front of Dr. Mengele and seeing and smelling the crematoria at the end of the platform, that's a pretty powerful anecdote. You make it seem so mild...." an ancestor who was deprived of his civil rights". That doesn't even begin to touch the horror and the fact that you attempt to distance yourself in this way shows that you have you a problem dealing with reality.

    But if there's data you want, there's plenty. Eichmann himself would have felt badly insulted and ashamed if you told him that only a million Jews had died.

    This BTW, doesn't take away from the fact that others in Europe also experienced plenty of suffering. There was plenty of suffering to go around (though nothing like the genocide that was aimed at killing every last Jew in Europe. Hitler was planning a "Museum of the Extinct Race" for the Jews and the Jews only) but that's no reason to deny or minimize the true extent of the Holocaust. Personally, I would feel a little worse about the suffering of the Volksdeutsche and the Latvians if so many had not signed up to be SS camp guards and all around Hitler fans, but that's just me - I realize that many innocents were swept up as well (and when your other choice is Stalin then maybe Hitler doesn't seem so bad), but karma is a bitch.

    “karma is a bitch” Sometimes. What do you think the Jews did to deserve the holocaust? Or does that only apply to groups of people you don’t like?

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    • Replies: @IBC
    Not the "karma" either of you are probably talking about but:

    A small but significant minority in the ultra-Orthodox community believe that the Holocaust was divine punishment for Jewish assimilation, intermarriage and the emergence of liberal streams of Judaism, such as the Reform movement, that do not accept traditional Judaic religious strictures.
     
    http://forward.com/news/196232/telling-story-of-holocausts-horrors-through-ultra/
  96. @officious intermeddler
    A very large majority of Italy's Jews survived World War II, because in fact Italians were not indifferent and many went to great lengths, at considerable danger to themselves, to save Jews.

    While historically correct, you’re politically incorrect. And today, that’s all that matters.

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  97. “Europe is awash in small-mindedness, prejudice and amnesia.” Or… It’s waking up from intense self-hatred that has dangerously squelched European self-interest for decades. Even the least-educated and most remote native peasant living on the Mighty Continent can’t help but marvel at organized Jewry crusading for Western nations to open their borders to Muslims, then decrying “European” anti-Semitism when some followers of the Prophet go all Sudden Jihad Syndrome, as Daniel Pipes called it. Small-minded, bigoted, and petty is preferable to becoming third-class citizens in their own country and perhaps one day seeing their daughters dropped into sacks just to walk around outside. Didn’t self-interest figure in Cohen’s fellow Jews slaughtering a few thousand Gazans last year? What would you call it? Munitions testing?

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  98. IBC says:
    @BurplesonAFB
    "karma is a bitch" Sometimes. What do you think the Jews did to deserve the holocaust? Or does that only apply to groups of people you don't like?

    Not the “karma” either of you are probably talking about but:

    A small but significant minority in the ultra-Orthodox community believe that the Holocaust was divine punishment for Jewish assimilation, intermarriage and the emergence of liberal streams of Judaism, such as the Reform movement, that do not accept traditional Judaic religious strictures.

    http://forward.com/news/196232/telling-story-of-holocausts-horrors-through-ultra/

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    • Replies: @cwhatfuture
    I'm not sure I would call that Karma at all, since the Jews who survived were those who were zionist and so left before the war (although the rabbis said zionism was a sin) and those were killed were the ultra-orthodox who stayed in Europe with their rabbis. The ultra-orthodox rabbis remind me of the Europeans. They think those who take care to survive (the Hungarians or Israelis) are sinners, and those who want to commit suicide (Germany) are the saints. And then when the "sinners" survive and the saints are killed I guess one can expect the Pope to say Western civilization was destroyed because we did not treat the refugees well enough.
  99. @IBC
    Not the "karma" either of you are probably talking about but:

    A small but significant minority in the ultra-Orthodox community believe that the Holocaust was divine punishment for Jewish assimilation, intermarriage and the emergence of liberal streams of Judaism, such as the Reform movement, that do not accept traditional Judaic religious strictures.
     
    http://forward.com/news/196232/telling-story-of-holocausts-horrors-through-ultra/

    I’m not sure I would call that Karma at all, since the Jews who survived were those who were zionist and so left before the war (although the rabbis said zionism was a sin) and those were killed were the ultra-orthodox who stayed in Europe with their rabbis. The ultra-orthodox rabbis remind me of the Europeans. They think those who take care to survive (the Hungarians or Israelis) are sinners, and those who want to commit suicide (Germany) are the saints. And then when the “sinners” survive and the saints are killed I guess one can expect the Pope to say Western civilization was destroyed because we did not treat the refugees well enough.

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  100. Chase says:
    @Drake

    Yesterday’s “scum” often proves to be the invigorating lifeblood of renewal. Churchill opposed the Aliens’ Act of 1905, designed to control Jewish immigration, on the grounds that “free entry and asylum” were practices from which Britain “has so greatly gained.”
     
    What did the women of Rotherham gain from a policy of "free entry and asylum"?

    “What did the girls…”

    FTFY

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  101. @Glaivester
    Wasn’t Israel saying they were too small and resources too limited to take *any* refugees, 2 weeks ago?

    Now they are waiting ‘with open arms’ for 750,000 new citizens from Europe?


    It's too small and limited to take any refugees who could not be turned into Israelis. Jewish immigrants from Europe who can add to Israel without changing it s character are something different.

    This is only hypocritical if Israel pretended that it didn't distinguish between Jews and non-Jews.

    This is only hypocritical if Israel pretended that it didn’t distinguish between Jews and non-Jews.

    Israel has always overtly distinguished or discriminated between Jews and non-Jews. The primary charter of the nation is for Jewish people, not for random strangers. I don’t think there was ever the slightest bit of confusion about this.

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  102. JSM says:
    @Jack D
    What is your point? That there was no Holocaust because the Germans did not kill every single last Jew in Europe? In 1939 there were 9.5 million Jews in Europe and over the next six years around 6 million were murdered, which left around 3.5 million alive. Most survivors were younger because the elderly didn't stand a chance.

    Growing up, I knew a lot of Holocaust survivors (including my parent). My father was one of 7 siblings, of whom 3 were murdered as well as his parents, (4 at Treblinka, 1 by Polish anti-Semites) and he himself barely made it to the end of the war (he weigh 45 kilos by the time he was liberated). And his family was lucky - I knew lots who were sole survivors out of 10 or more siblings. So does the fact that he survived mean that nothing at all happened? Does the fact that there were no eyewitnesses to their murder at Treblinka (because they were all murdered too) mean that they weren't?

    And to answer your question, yes, if you are put in a lice ridden camp with inadequate food and made to do hard labor and you die as a result, it's murder whether it's a Russian camp or a German camp.

    of whom 3 were murdered as well as his parents,

    How were they murdered? By what method?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jack D
    1 was shot by Polish anti-Semites. 2 (his sisters) were gassed at Treblinka along with his parents, most of the Jewish residents of my father's town and another 800,000 or so Polish Jews.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treblinka_extermination_camp

    "According to the postwar testimony of some SS officers, men were always gassed first, while women and children waited outside the gas chambers for their turn. During this time, the women and children could hear the sounds of suffering from inside the chambers, and they became aware of what awaited them, which caused panic, distress, and even involuntary defecation."

    Is that enough detail for you or would you like more?
  103. @Priss Factor
    rotfl

    how condescending, contrived, predictable, and self-serving.

    Future elitists win some 'egalitarian' and 'humility' points.

    http://www.openculture.com/2015/10/harvards-debate-team-loses-competition-to-inmates-in-new-york-prison-thanks-to-the-bard-prison-initiative.html

    “The showdown,” which revolved around the question of whether public schools should be allowed to turn away undocumented students, “took place at the Eastern correctional facility in New York, a maximum-security prison where convicts can take courses taught by faculty from nearby Bard College, and where inmates have formed a popular debate club.”

    “the fallacy of our underlying assumptions about such a matchup — the first (and most pernicious) being that criminals aren’t smart. If a definitive link between criminality and below-average intelligence exists, nobody has found it.”

    I read Michael Crichton’s book “The Great Train Robbery” about a Victorian era train robbery pulled off before TNT was widespread. Success depended on finding the keys to the safe, requiring planning and cunning. It was mostly fictionalized version of the real event, but Crichton used a lot of non-fiction describing Victorian customs and criminal activity at the time. He also quoted studies of Victorian times, and contemporary ones (this is 1970 more or less) that stated IQ tests for prison inmates were equal or greater to the general population. It struck me as true because crime really did pay back then. Nowadays Al Capone wouldn’t be a criminal, it would be much more profitable to go legit, unlike back then when you could become a kingpin. The average street thug couldn’t put together a complex train robbery. Before prisons were warehouses for low level, low impulse control street thugs, prisons weren’t necessarily filled with dummies. That definitely isn’t true anymore, so maybe this whole post is irrelevant.

    Read More
  104. Beach says:
    @Lot

    when present-day Israelis can’t be arsed to travel, by American standards, into a neighboring state
     
    Yeah, I mean it would be a real simple thing for a country of 7 million to pop into a country of 36 million, which is 600 miles away, with yet another larger country full of hostile muslims in between, in order to save a few thousand people they'd have no way to tell apart from the more numerous and hostile regular Muslim. I mean really, doesn't everyone in this day and age know how to tell a northern Iraqi Yazidi from a northern Iraqi Kurd or Sunni?

    No doubt the Israeli commandos parachuting into the mountains of Northern Iraq would be greeted as liberators.

    You mean that it is difficult to make your way deeply into a well-armed enemy country hundreds of miles away, in order to save a people in danger of genocide, when it’s hard to tell them apart from the enemy? Those were the arguments given by the WW2 West against making saving European Jews their first priority, which has been used as a bludgeon by the JDL ever since.

    By the way, it’s rather easy to tell them apart. Look for the blonde, weeping female children.

    Read More
  105. @Steve Sailer
    "If a definitive link between criminality and below-average intelligence exists, nobody has found it."

    Journalists say stuff like that all the time without thinking to Google it. Of course, it turns out it was studied to dead decades ago: see 1985's "Crime and Human Nature" James Q. Wilson and Richard Herrnstein, and then see 1994's "The Bell Curve" by Herrnstein and Murray for data by IQ from the 1979 NLSY up through 1990.

    Taking this a step further, in his 1997 National Review critique of Stephen Gould’s “The Mismeasure of Man”, the late Philippe Rushton made mention that:

    “Finally, Gould continues to ridicule the “ape in some of us” hypothesis proposed by Cesare Lombroso (1836-1909), the founder of criminology. Lombroso argued that many criminals were throwbacks to man’s ancestral past, and that “natural-born criminals” could be identified by anatomical signs of primitiveness. (Contrary to Gould, however, Lombroso also believed that criminal behavior could arise in “normal” men.)”

    Read More
  106. @Steve Sailer
    "If a definitive link between criminality and below-average intelligence exists, nobody has found it."

    Journalists say stuff like that all the time without thinking to Google it. Of course, it turns out it was studied to dead decades ago: see 1985's "Crime and Human Nature" James Q. Wilson and Richard Herrnstein, and then see 1994's "The Bell Curve" by Herrnstein and Murray for data by IQ from the 1979 NLSY up through 1990.

    I read Michael Crichton’s book “The Great Train Robbery” about a Victorian era train robbery pulled off before TNT was widespread. Success depended on finding the keys to the safe, requiring planning and cunning. It was mostly fictionalized version of the real event, but Crichton used a lot of non-fiction describing Victorian customs and criminal activity at the time. He also quoted studies of Victorian times, and contemporary ones (this is 1970 more or less) that stated IQ tests for prison inmates were equal or greater to the general population. It struck me as true because crime really did pay back then. Nowadays Al Capone wouldn’t be a criminal, it would be much more profitable to go legit, unlike back then when you could become a kingpin. The average street thug couldn’t put together a complex train robbery. Before prisons were warehouses for low level, low impulse control street thugs, prisons weren’t necessarily filled with dummies. That definitely isn’t true anymore, so maybe this whole post is irrelevant.

    Read More
  107. Everyone knows its hypocritical for Jews to demand an ethnostate for themselves while pushing and demanding that every other Western country be a multi-ethnic.

    You can play word games all you want, but that what it boils down to.

    Read More
  108. Tracy says: • Website
    @officious intermeddler
    A very large majority of Italy's Jews survived World War II, because in fact Italians were not indifferent and many went to great lengths, at considerable danger to themselves, to save Jews.

    wrote: “A very large majority of Italy’s Jews survived World War II, because in fact Italians were not indifferent and many went to great lengths, at considerable danger to themselves, to save Jews.”

    Undoubtedly Catholics all. And what are the thanks Italian Catholics get? Their Pope is smeared, Christianity is blamed for the “Holocaust,” etc. Etc. Catholics would likely save Jews again if the situation were to arise, because that’s what Catholics do. But the outcome would probably be the same: nothing but grief and blame in return.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jack D
    Poland was also mostly Catholic and around 90% of the Jews in that country were murdered. Poland had a very mixed record concerning the Jews - a few bravely took measures to hide Jews from the Germans at great risk to themselves, some actively participated in the extermination or were willing to sell Jews out for trifling rewards from the Germans (a few kilos of sugar) and most were at best indifferent or glad to see the Jews go even if they did not participate (and certainly weren't going to risk their own hides to help). The Polish Church did not see the extermination of the Jews as something that it should be concerned with - they didn't really like the Christ killers before the war and really would have preferred that they convert or leave the country. While they never would have pursued genocide on their own, when it began they did not regard it as their problem or see any duty to prevent it.

    Italy had a tiny Jewish community - 50,000 in total, most of whom were very well integrated (e.g. the Italian Jews all spoke Italian as their daily language). This was about as many Jews for the entire country as you would have found in any one medium sized Polish city.
  109. Tracy says: • Website

    The guy who wrote that article, Roger Cohen, is the same guy who
    wrote this
    : “One state, however conceived, equals the end of Israel as a Jewish state, the core of the Zionist idea. Jews must not allow this to happen. Trust your neighbor? Been there, tried that.”

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  110. Old Jew says:
    @Hail

    Netanyahu declared that European Jews should embark on a “mass immigration” to Israel
     
    Does he want any from the USA?

    “Does he want any from the USA?”

    Yes!

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  111. Jack D says:
    @JSM
    of whom 3 were murdered as well as his parents,

    How were they murdered? By what method?

    1 was shot by Polish anti-Semites. 2 (his sisters) were gassed at Treblinka along with his parents, most of the Jewish residents of my father’s town and another 800,000 or so Polish Jews.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treblinka_extermination_camp

    “According to the postwar testimony of some SS officers, men were always gassed first, while women and children waited outside the gas chambers for their turn. During this time, the women and children could hear the sounds of suffering from inside the chambers, and they became aware of what awaited them, which caused panic, distress, and even involuntary defecation.”

    Is that enough detail for you or would you like more?

    Read More
  112. D. K. says:
    @Jack D
    What is your point? That there was no Holocaust because the Germans did not kill every single last Jew in Europe? In 1939 there were 9.5 million Jews in Europe and over the next six years around 6 million were murdered, which left around 3.5 million alive. Most survivors were younger because the elderly didn't stand a chance.

    Growing up, I knew a lot of Holocaust survivors (including my parent). My father was one of 7 siblings, of whom 3 were murdered as well as his parents, (4 at Treblinka, 1 by Polish anti-Semites) and he himself barely made it to the end of the war (he weigh 45 kilos by the time he was liberated). And his family was lucky - I knew lots who were sole survivors out of 10 or more siblings. So does the fact that he survived mean that nothing at all happened? Does the fact that there were no eyewitnesses to their murder at Treblinka (because they were all murdered too) mean that they weren't?

    And to answer your question, yes, if you are put in a lice ridden camp with inadequate food and made to do hard labor and you die as a result, it's murder whether it's a Russian camp or a German camp.

    My point was that if Liliana survived her own deportation and the war– and is still around, more than 70 years later, in fact, to ruminate about her experiences with reporters– then everyone who was deported from that train station in Milan, during the war years, was not “doomed” as a result– as the quoted column by Mr. Cohen falsely claims. Is such an obvious truth simply too literal for you to wrap your mind around it?

    Your own claim that the very young were the most likely to survive, and that that explains why so many hundreds of thousands of supposed Holocaust survivors still are alive, more than 70 years, now, after the war ended, is itself ludicrous, on the face of it. The very young, like the very old, are precisely those who are most likely to die from both disease and malnutrition, under such horrible circumstances. That is the nature of disease, vis-a-vis the human immune system.

    The very young also were of even less use to their captors as forced labor than were the elderly. Why were those young children not murdered straight away, instead of being allowed to take up limited camp space and valuable resources, especially food stuffs? It makes no sense– and the Germans are alleged too have been cruelly, even inhumanly, logical and methodical about how they went about their supposedly pre-planned extermination of an entire race. In fact, it makes no sense, at all, that they should have left several million survivors.

    That strikes me, as a former lawyer, trained in History, to be very odd indeed. I also find it very odd that the supposed death toll just happens to be identical to the number quoted in the press, hundreds of times, before the war, all the way back to the late 19th Century. That numerical oddity is greatly compounded by the fact that the cited death toll, when officially propounded by the Nuremberg Tribunal, after the war, based upon Soviet claims, has remained unchanged, nearly seven decades later, when it is well known that the Soviet claims were materially false.

    The death figure at the premier “death camp” was claimed, after the war, to be four million dead. That figure, by now, has been whittled down to about a million and a half, with some estimates of even well under a million. Regardless, at least two and a half million supposed victims have since disappeared from the death rolls, in recent decades. Is it plausible that the toll of six million dead Jews remains inviolate, in the face of such an accounting correction? To you, apparently, it does, and anyone who doubts the reasonableness of such a conclusion is merely a “Holocaust denier!”

    The Hitler years and World War II, in general– and what happened to European Jews, during those years, in particular– are historical questions. They must be researched, studied, discussed, evaluated and, over time, reevaluated, just like any other historical questions– let alone ones so vast and important. The organized Jewish effort to prosecute, and otherwise persecute, anyone who fails to bow down to the Jewish community’s own orthodox recitation of facts and lessons about that important historical era shows me that– to Organized Jewry and, apparently, to you– the Holocaust is now a sacred totem: unique, transcendent and humanly unfathomable. To me, as an intelligent and a well-educated man, it is none of those things.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jack D
    "In all, the Germans deported 8,564 Jews from Italy, Italian-occupied France, and the islands of Rhodes and Kos, most of them to Auschwitz-Birkenau. 1,009 returned."

    http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005455

    So, would it have made you feel better if Cohen had written, " They were unloaded from trucks and packed into wooden boxcars made to transport six horses but used for some 80 human beings, of whom 70 were doomed and 10 would barely escape with their lives"? What % of the Jews of Europe would have had to die before you weren't complaining that not enough of them were killed? Is not Auschwitz horrifying enough if "only" a million people were gassed there? For a self-described "intelligent" man, do you realize how stupid that makes you sound?
  113. Jack D says:
    @Tracy
    @ren wrote: "A very large majority of Italy’s Jews survived World War II, because in fact Italians were not indifferent and many went to great lengths, at considerable danger to themselves, to save Jews."

    Undoubtedly Catholics all. And what are the thanks Italian Catholics get? Their Pope is smeared, Christianity is blamed for the "Holocaust," etc. Etc. Catholics would likely save Jews again if the situation were to arise, because that's what Catholics do. But the outcome would probably be the same: nothing but grief and blame in return.

    Poland was also mostly Catholic and around 90% of the Jews in that country were murdered. Poland had a very mixed record concerning the Jews – a few bravely took measures to hide Jews from the Germans at great risk to themselves, some actively participated in the extermination or were willing to sell Jews out for trifling rewards from the Germans (a few kilos of sugar) and most were at best indifferent or glad to see the Jews go even if they did not participate (and certainly weren’t going to risk their own hides to help). The Polish Church did not see the extermination of the Jews as something that it should be concerned with – they didn’t really like the Christ killers before the war and really would have preferred that they convert or leave the country. While they never would have pursued genocide on their own, when it began they did not regard it as their problem or see any duty to prevent it.

    Italy had a tiny Jewish community – 50,000 in total, most of whom were very well integrated (e.g. the Italian Jews all spoke Italian as their daily language). This was about as many Jews for the entire country as you would have found in any one medium sized Polish city.

    Read More
    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    Did it ever occur to you that the Poles were in no position to save that many Jews when they were occupied by Nazi Germany and the Stalinist USSR? I mean, roughly two million gentile Poles lost their lives during the war. Perhaps you have read some books on the holocaust, so you might know (e.g. Christopher Browning writes about it extensively in The Origins of the Final Solution) that centrally coordinated targeted murders of the Polish intelligentsia started earlier then similar centrally organized actions against the Jews. Perhaps you might also be aware that a fifth of Polish clergy perished during the war, mostly at the hands of the Nazis. How could you expect them to save Jews when they were unable to protect their fellow priests? Is it your expectation that the only reason for gentiles' existence is to save the Jews, and you get disappointed when they instead try (with mixed success) to save themselves and their family members first and foremost?

    Regarding your relatives murdered by Polish anti-Semites, I'm sorry to hear that. Let me give you some context. In 1939 Stalin occupied Eastern Poland, and for his secret police he badly needed locals with little loyalty to Poland or the local population but with a knowledge of local circumstances and the language. Even if you aren't aware of the fact that it was mostly Jews who joined Stalin's secret police (on top of the fact that there already was a not wholly unjustified stereotype of Jewish involvement with Bolshevism), you can rest assured that the Poles were indeed aware of these facts. This might explain their extreme hostility towards Jews. (I'm sure you're familiar with Jewish history, so there's no need to explain to you the arenda system as an earlier cause of anti-Jewish animus.)

    Was it you who wrote karma was a bitch? It is, indeed.
    , @reiner Tor
    Let me add that at least the leadership of the post-war Polish communist party was predominantly Jewish. Since this fact was also not lost on Poles, if your relative was murdered in the post-war period, it might also have added to the anti-Jewish animus of his murderers. Not that it makes your relative's murder justified (unless, of course, he was himself a communist), just a bit of context.
    , @Former Darfur
    I knew a fair number of Polish-Americans growing up, and while none of them had much good to say about Jews, I also never met one that had much good to say about the Nazis, not did any of them really actively hate Jews either. The general attitude was ,"God bless the Jews and keep them.....just so long as it's away from us."

    Many of them did have a much stronger adversity toward blacks, Puerto Ricans and Mexicans, because they tended to come into the Polish neighborhoods and cause all sorts of havoc. They also tended to drive real estate prices down, and most of these people had no other investments to speak of besides their well maintained row houses. Also, a lot of them had potentially dangerous factory jobs and they all felt that black co-workers tended to be a work hazard because they had poor judgment. One of the guys I used to know from the model airplane club I hung around with and was mentored by was an old Polish foundryman that had a wooden leg. It seemed that a black apprentice took it upon himself to move a crucible and knocked it over, burning the man's leg so badly it had to be amputated below the knee.

    Generally, I think the Poles were of at least average and sometimes above average intelligence, but their social skills were a little lacking. They seemed to have a penchant for machine shop, foundry, and steel mill type work or were plumbers or electricians. Most of their kids became engineers or wound up in corporate jobs with insurance companies and the like. A few went to work for the city.
  114. Jack D says:
    @D. K.
    My point was that if Liliana survived her own deportation and the war-- and is still around, more than 70 years later, in fact, to ruminate about her experiences with reporters-- then everyone who was deported from that train station in Milan, during the war years, was not "doomed" as a result-- as the quoted column by Mr. Cohen falsely claims. Is such an obvious truth simply too literal for you to wrap your mind around it?

    Your own claim that the very young were the most likely to survive, and that that explains why so many hundreds of thousands of supposed Holocaust survivors still are alive, more than 70 years, now, after the war ended, is itself ludicrous, on the face of it. The very young, like the very old, are precisely those who are most likely to die from both disease and malnutrition, under such horrible circumstances. That is the nature of disease, vis-a-vis the human immune system.

    The very young also were of even less use to their captors as forced labor than were the elderly. Why were those young children not murdered straight away, instead of being allowed to take up limited camp space and valuable resources, especially food stuffs? It makes no sense-- and the Germans are alleged too have been cruelly, even inhumanly, logical and methodical about how they went about their supposedly pre-planned extermination of an entire race. In fact, it makes no sense, at all, that they should have left several million survivors.

    That strikes me, as a former lawyer, trained in History, to be very odd indeed. I also find it very odd that the supposed death toll just happens to be identical to the number quoted in the press, hundreds of times, before the war, all the way back to the late 19th Century. That numerical oddity is greatly compounded by the fact that the cited death toll, when officially propounded by the Nuremberg Tribunal, after the war, based upon Soviet claims, has remained unchanged, nearly seven decades later, when it is well known that the Soviet claims were materially false.

    The death figure at the premier "death camp" was claimed, after the war, to be four million dead. That figure, by now, has been whittled down to about a million and a half, with some estimates of even well under a million. Regardless, at least two and a half million supposed victims have since disappeared from the death rolls, in recent decades. Is it plausible that the toll of six million dead Jews remains inviolate, in the face of such an accounting correction? To you, apparently, it does, and anyone who doubts the reasonableness of such a conclusion is merely a "Holocaust denier!"

    The Hitler years and World War II, in general-- and what happened to European Jews, during those years, in particular-- are historical questions. They must be researched, studied, discussed, evaluated and, over time, reevaluated, just like any other historical questions-- let alone ones so vast and important. The organized Jewish effort to prosecute, and otherwise persecute, anyone who fails to bow down to the Jewish community's own orthodox recitation of facts and lessons about that important historical era shows me that-- to Organized Jewry and, apparently, to you-- the Holocaust is now a sacred totem: unique, transcendent and humanly unfathomable. To me, as an intelligent and a well-educated man, it is none of those things.

    “In all, the Germans deported 8,564 Jews from Italy, Italian-occupied France, and the islands of Rhodes and Kos, most of them to Auschwitz-Birkenau. 1,009 returned.”

    http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005455

    So, would it have made you feel better if Cohen had written, ” They were unloaded from trucks and packed into wooden boxcars made to transport six horses but used for some 80 human beings, of whom 70 were doomed and 10 would barely escape with their lives”? What % of the Jews of Europe would have had to die before you weren’t complaining that not enough of them were killed? Is not Auschwitz horrifying enough if “only” a million people were gassed there? For a self-described “intelligent” man, do you realize how stupid that makes you sound?

    Read More
    • Replies: @D. K.
    I quite realize how an intelligent (gentile) man sounds to a Jew like you, Jack, yes, as I had noted in my previous comment, to which you were here responding.

    So, you tell me, Jack: How many dead ("murdered") Jews are necessary for you to be satisfied? If someone agrees with the 5.1 million figure of the late "Dean of Holocaust Scholars" who was mentioned by someone else, above, Raul Hilberg, is that death toll high enough for him or her to avoid prosecution and persecution as a "Holocaust denier!" by you and your ilk? What is the minimum number of deaths needed to avoid such a black label, Jack?

    (At what level of deaths, proportionally, did the Holocaust actually become the Holocaust? Or, was the malign intention itself enough to make the Holocaust the Holocaust, even if the Germans had failed to murder a single Jew?)

    Perhaps most interestingly, Jack, to someone like myself, who also was trained in Personality and Social Psychology: Why does the very thought of fewer Jews' having been deliberately murdered by the German regime, between January 30, 1933, and May 8, 1945, seem to incense Jews like yourself, rather than provide a small measure of relief that all of those additional Jews, totaling to the full six million, had not, in fact, been killed?

    If I thought that all seven of my surviving siblings had been murdered at a family get-together that I was unable to attend, and then I learned that even one of them had survived, for whatever reason, I would be immeasurably relieved, despite my overall grief at the loss of the others!?! Is that just my "goyishe kop" running away with me, Jack?
    , @Former Darfur
    A lot of people died at Auschwitz, etc, but not all or even nearly all of them Jews, and while I don't believe most of them did anything to deserve what happened to them, that's also true of most people who die in wars. But soley because of the Jews, ex post facto laws were enacted and huge numbers of Germans were tried at Nuremberg, making a mockery of international law forever. Soley because of the Jews, we have to hear about the Holocaust forever and in most countries cannot challenge any statement the current (and changeable) official line dictates under statutes that specifically state "the truth is no defense". Soley because they were Jews, the United States is expected to a country that has spied on us, tried to sink one of our warships, and generally shows unbridled contempt for our majority religion and our majority population with an unlimited reserve of foreign aid, forever.

    Then, just to top this bowl of "chocolate bits and peppermints in blueberry sauce" (anyone who has worked the ramp knows what I mean) off with the special kosher whipped cream, they call people who are actually Semites whom they accuse of hatred of a people who are mostly not Semites at all of "antisemitism".
    , @ben tillman

    So, would it have made you feel better if Cohen had written, ” They were unloaded from trucks and packed into wooden boxcars made to transport six horses but used for some 80 human beings, of whom 70 were doomed and 10 would barely escape with their lives”?
     
    That's not what it said. It said that 12% returned, not that 12% survived.
  115. Bill B. says:

    My father and his two brothers absented themselves from school to join the infantry to fight the Nazis. So did great numbers of their friends and relatives.

    My father fought his way across North Africa and up Italy in his teens. He lived, many others did not.

    Mr Cohen’s family were meanwhile safe making good money, according to his memoir:

    ‘In the years around the turn of the 20th century, Roger Cohen’s family joined the mass exodus of Jews out of their long, mostly dismal residency in the Pale of Settlement. Like thousands of their Lithuanian landsmen, Cohen’s relatives headed for the sunny, still-undeveloped, resource-­rich country of South Africa. In this new world they began with nothing, worked hard and achieved much. As is often true of successful immigrant families, their grandchildren could live as though the old world had never been. Cohen’s father became a doctor, his mother was college educated. Both were raised with the comforts that only numerous servants can provide: “They never had to boil an egg,”

    Mr Cohan’s mother suffered from clinic depression and eventually committed suicide. Cohen, unlike his father, tries to blame this on her putative Jewish angst, indeed he compares her suffering to that of a holocaust survivor, which is too much even for the NYT reviewer:

    Cohen writes: “My mother was spared the Nazi terror Gordimer endured. . . . She was not, however, spared the strain of upheaval, displacement and fear. . . . She, too, faced the things not talked about.”

    ‘Roger Cohen’s family left Lithuania more than three decades before the Nazis marched in. When his mother was 5, George Gordimer’s age when he was hiding from the Nazis, she was a happy, coddled child in South Africa. Her son acknowledges that June Cohen was not a survivor of the Holocaust, but he nevertheless makes the equation. In linking his mother’s suffering to that of George Gordimer, he inflates the one, diminishes the other and has bent history to his purpose.’

    Nothing new though for Roger ‘As-if-it-were-yesterday’ Cohen.

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  116. D. K. says:
    @Jack D
    "In all, the Germans deported 8,564 Jews from Italy, Italian-occupied France, and the islands of Rhodes and Kos, most of them to Auschwitz-Birkenau. 1,009 returned."

    http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005455

    So, would it have made you feel better if Cohen had written, " They were unloaded from trucks and packed into wooden boxcars made to transport six horses but used for some 80 human beings, of whom 70 were doomed and 10 would barely escape with their lives"? What % of the Jews of Europe would have had to die before you weren't complaining that not enough of them were killed? Is not Auschwitz horrifying enough if "only" a million people were gassed there? For a self-described "intelligent" man, do you realize how stupid that makes you sound?

    I quite realize how an intelligent (gentile) man sounds to a Jew like you, Jack, yes, as I had noted in my previous comment, to which you were here responding.

    So, you tell me, Jack: How many dead (“murdered”) Jews are necessary for you to be satisfied? If someone agrees with the 5.1 million figure of the late “Dean of Holocaust Scholars” who was mentioned by someone else, above, Raul Hilberg, is that death toll high enough for him or her to avoid prosecution and persecution as a “Holocaust denier!” by you and your ilk? What is the minimum number of deaths needed to avoid such a black label, Jack?

    (At what level of deaths, proportionally, did the Holocaust actually become the Holocaust? Or, was the malign intention itself enough to make the Holocaust the Holocaust, even if the Germans had failed to murder a single Jew?)

    Perhaps most interestingly, Jack, to someone like myself, who also was trained in Personality and Social Psychology: Why does the very thought of fewer Jews’ having been deliberately murdered by the German regime, between January 30, 1933, and May 8, 1945, seem to incense Jews like yourself, rather than provide a small measure of relief that all of those additional Jews, totaling to the full six million, had not, in fact, been killed?

    If I thought that all seven of my surviving siblings had been murdered at a family get-together that I was unable to attend, and then I learned that even one of them had survived, for whatever reason, I would be immeasurably relieved, despite my overall grief at the loss of the others!?! Is that just my “goyishe kop” running away with me, Jack?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Old Jew
    Your question is legitimate.

    Why a million Holocaust survivors?

    60 years ago as a kid I thought that only Jews (like my stepmother) that returned from Asschwitz were Holocaust survivors.
    Lately 'they" decided that all Soviet Jews, that had to leave their homes during the war, during the war are to be counted. Many Jews were evacuated with their families, and with the equipment of the factories and plants they associated with, deep deep behind the front lines. The heavy industry was reassembled, rebuild in Siberia, Uzbekistan, etc and continued to arm the Red Army. They endured extreme hardship but the fate of the Russian factory men was not better. Israel ought to count these Russian also as Holocaust Survivors.

    When occupying Bukowina, eastern Poland, the Baltic's, etc, the Soviets arrested the rich, bourgeois elements (no trials no reason given) and sent them to Siberia. Those Jews included had a better chance to survive there in Siberia, than the Jewish lower classes left to fend for themselves under the Germans.

    The percentage of Jews in the Red Army on the front, was way larger than the percentage of Jews in the populace.

    I did not research whether they are also counted as Holocaust survivors. I heard stories of Jews
    that left with the retreating Soviets, because they believed in the system. On June 22nd 1941, my family in Czernowitz did not know what the Romanian Army, had in store for them. They were happy that the threat to be picked up at night and sent to Siberia was gone.

    But then reality, the Ghetto ( I was born there0 deportation to Transnistria, hit hard, very hard.
  117. @Jefferson
    I am sure most of the Muslim refugees flooding into Europe would be extremely offended if they found out SWPL Liberals at The New York Times are comparing them to Jews.

    This Roger Cohen guy should know that in the Islamic world there is nothing worst than being compared to a Jew. In the Islamic world even terrorists, murderers, rapists, and pedophiles are seen in a higher light than Jews.

    That’s why flamboyant homosexuals, butch lesbians and unconvincing transsexuals should be given preferential treatment for border control jobs. When horny young Middle Eastern guys turn up at the border of a western country the last thing they want to see to is a 6 foot 2 male to female transsexual with a bad attitude from a dodgy surgery job he/she got in Thailand.

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  118. @Jack D
    Poland was also mostly Catholic and around 90% of the Jews in that country were murdered. Poland had a very mixed record concerning the Jews - a few bravely took measures to hide Jews from the Germans at great risk to themselves, some actively participated in the extermination or were willing to sell Jews out for trifling rewards from the Germans (a few kilos of sugar) and most were at best indifferent or glad to see the Jews go even if they did not participate (and certainly weren't going to risk their own hides to help). The Polish Church did not see the extermination of the Jews as something that it should be concerned with - they didn't really like the Christ killers before the war and really would have preferred that they convert or leave the country. While they never would have pursued genocide on their own, when it began they did not regard it as their problem or see any duty to prevent it.

    Italy had a tiny Jewish community - 50,000 in total, most of whom were very well integrated (e.g. the Italian Jews all spoke Italian as their daily language). This was about as many Jews for the entire country as you would have found in any one medium sized Polish city.

    Did it ever occur to you that the Poles were in no position to save that many Jews when they were occupied by Nazi Germany and the Stalinist USSR? I mean, roughly two million gentile Poles lost their lives during the war. Perhaps you have read some books on the holocaust, so you might know (e.g. Christopher Browning writes about it extensively in The Origins of the Final Solution) that centrally coordinated targeted murders of the Polish intelligentsia started earlier then similar centrally organized actions against the Jews. Perhaps you might also be aware that a fifth of Polish clergy perished during the war, mostly at the hands of the Nazis. How could you expect them to save Jews when they were unable to protect their fellow priests? Is it your expectation that the only reason for gentiles’ existence is to save the Jews, and you get disappointed when they instead try (with mixed success) to save themselves and their family members first and foremost?

    Regarding your relatives murdered by Polish anti-Semites, I’m sorry to hear that. Let me give you some context. In 1939 Stalin occupied Eastern Poland, and for his secret police he badly needed locals with little loyalty to Poland or the local population but with a knowledge of local circumstances and the language. Even if you aren’t aware of the fact that it was mostly Jews who joined Stalin’s secret police (on top of the fact that there already was a not wholly unjustified stereotype of Jewish involvement with Bolshevism), you can rest assured that the Poles were indeed aware of these facts. This might explain their extreme hostility towards Jews. (I’m sure you’re familiar with Jewish history, so there’s no need to explain to you the arenda system as an earlier cause of anti-Jewish animus.)

    Was it you who wrote karma was a bitch? It is, indeed.

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    • Replies: @Jack D
    My father was from the portion of Poland that was given to the Germans in the Hitler/Stalin pact so the local Poles had never seen a Soviet Commisar at the point that they killed my uncle, Jewish or otherwise. Local anti-semites were very active even before the war began - my father's little town was the scene of a famous "pogrom" in 1936, which was sort of a foreshadowing of things to come. The locals were hounding the Jews to leave for Palestine. I wish that my father and his family had taken their advice, but they felt (at that time) that they were also a citizens of Poland and had as much right to remain in the country where their ancestors had lived for hundreds of years as anyone else.

    I would have accepted mere indifference by the Poles but their willingness to sometimes conduct their own pogroms even without the German's help and their willingness to sell out their Jewish neighbors for a few kilos of sugar went well beyond mere indifference in many cases. On the other hand, there were a few truly righteous Poles who risked their own lives to shelter Jews - these people deserve a special spot in heaven. The fact that such people existed shows that it WAS possible. The Church in other parts of Europe (e.g. France) was sometimes more helpful, but as I mentioned before, the Church in Poland was a center of anti-Semitic thought and the last thing on their mind was helping the people who had killed Jesus.

    The number of Jewish and Catholic Polish citizens killed during the war was roughly equal. The problem is that Jews were only around 10% of the total population of Poland, so 2 or 3 million gentiles killed was loss of 1 out of 10 while for the Jews the same loss was 9 out of 10. After the war was over, Poland still existed, but its 1,000 year old Jewish community was virtually extinct.

    The difference between the German treatment of the non-Jewish vs Jewish Polish population was this: the Nazis were interested in killing certain Polish Catholics for what they did - resistance, membership in the intelligentsia, etc. but they wanted to kill every last Jew regardless of what they did or did not do. Their long term goal was to clear Poland of the non-Jewish population as well, in order to create lebensraum for Germans, but they did not reach that phase before the war ended - that was supposed to happen later, maybe after the war was over, but the extermination of the Jews was an immediate priority project. The Germans did run a few Polish villages thru Auschwitz as a sort of a test, but for the most part if you were a Polish gentile you had to have done "something" to attract the German's attention.

  119. @Jack D
    Poland was also mostly Catholic and around 90% of the Jews in that country were murdered. Poland had a very mixed record concerning the Jews - a few bravely took measures to hide Jews from the Germans at great risk to themselves, some actively participated in the extermination or were willing to sell Jews out for trifling rewards from the Germans (a few kilos of sugar) and most were at best indifferent or glad to see the Jews go even if they did not participate (and certainly weren't going to risk their own hides to help). The Polish Church did not see the extermination of the Jews as something that it should be concerned with - they didn't really like the Christ killers before the war and really would have preferred that they convert or leave the country. While they never would have pursued genocide on their own, when it began they did not regard it as their problem or see any duty to prevent it.

    Italy had a tiny Jewish community - 50,000 in total, most of whom were very well integrated (e.g. the Italian Jews all spoke Italian as their daily language). This was about as many Jews for the entire country as you would have found in any one medium sized Polish city.

    Let me add that at least the leadership of the post-war Polish communist party was predominantly Jewish. Since this fact was also not lost on Poles, if your relative was murdered in the post-war period, it might also have added to the anti-Jewish animus of his murderers. Not that it makes your relative’s murder justified (unless, of course, he was himself a communist), just a bit of context.

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  120. Gabriel m says:

    Congratulations, you found another clueless neurotic American Jew saying something clueless and neurotic about events in Europe, thus proving well who knows really.

    Meanwhile, in Europe where I actually live “refugees welcome” rallies are being led by leaders of political parties who refuse to use the term “Israel” and are celebrating the outbreak of the third intifada, I.e. Arab stabbing random people.

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  121. Jack D says:
    @reiner Tor
    Did it ever occur to you that the Poles were in no position to save that many Jews when they were occupied by Nazi Germany and the Stalinist USSR? I mean, roughly two million gentile Poles lost their lives during the war. Perhaps you have read some books on the holocaust, so you might know (e.g. Christopher Browning writes about it extensively in The Origins of the Final Solution) that centrally coordinated targeted murders of the Polish intelligentsia started earlier then similar centrally organized actions against the Jews. Perhaps you might also be aware that a fifth of Polish clergy perished during the war, mostly at the hands of the Nazis. How could you expect them to save Jews when they were unable to protect their fellow priests? Is it your expectation that the only reason for gentiles' existence is to save the Jews, and you get disappointed when they instead try (with mixed success) to save themselves and their family members first and foremost?

    Regarding your relatives murdered by Polish anti-Semites, I'm sorry to hear that. Let me give you some context. In 1939 Stalin occupied Eastern Poland, and for his secret police he badly needed locals with little loyalty to Poland or the local population but with a knowledge of local circumstances and the language. Even if you aren't aware of the fact that it was mostly Jews who joined Stalin's secret police (on top of the fact that there already was a not wholly unjustified stereotype of Jewish involvement with Bolshevism), you can rest assured that the Poles were indeed aware of these facts. This might explain their extreme hostility towards Jews. (I'm sure you're familiar with Jewish history, so there's no need to explain to you the arenda system as an earlier cause of anti-Jewish animus.)

    Was it you who wrote karma was a bitch? It is, indeed.

    My father was from the portion of Poland that was given to the Germans in the Hitler/Stalin pact so the local Poles had never seen a Soviet Commisar at the point that they killed my uncle, Jewish or otherwise. Local anti-semites were very active even before the war began – my father’s little town was the scene of a famous “pogrom” in 1936, which was sort of a foreshadowing of things to come. The locals were hounding the Jews to leave for Palestine. I wish that my father and his family had taken their advice, but they felt (at that time) that they were also a citizens of Poland and had as much right to remain in the country where their ancestors had lived for hundreds of years as anyone else.

    I would have accepted mere indifference by the Poles but their willingness to sometimes conduct their own pogroms even without the German’s help and their willingness to sell out their Jewish neighbors for a few kilos of sugar went well beyond mere indifference in many cases. On the other hand, there were a few truly righteous Poles who risked their own lives to shelter Jews – these people deserve a special spot in heaven. The fact that such people existed shows that it WAS possible. The Church in other parts of Europe (e.g. France) was sometimes more helpful, but as I mentioned before, the Church in Poland was a center of anti-Semitic thought and the last thing on their mind was helping the people who had killed Jesus.

    The number of Jewish and Catholic Polish citizens killed during the war was roughly equal. The problem is that Jews were only around 10% of the total population of Poland, so 2 or 3 million gentiles killed was loss of 1 out of 10 while for the Jews the same loss was 9 out of 10. After the war was over, Poland still existed, but its 1,000 year old Jewish community was virtually extinct.

    The difference between the German treatment of the non-Jewish vs Jewish Polish population was this: the Nazis were interested in killing certain Polish Catholics for what they did – resistance, membership in the intelligentsia, etc. but they wanted to kill every last Jew regardless of what they did or did not do. Their long term goal was to clear Poland of the non-Jewish population as well, in order to create lebensraum for Germans, but they did not reach that phase before the war ended – that was supposed to happen later, maybe after the war was over, but the extermination of the Jews was an immediate priority project. The Germans did run a few Polish villages thru Auschwitz as a sort of a test, but for the most part if you were a Polish gentile you had to have done “something” to attract the German’s attention.

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    • Replies: @reiner Tor

    My father was from the portion of Poland that was given to the Germans in the Hitler/Stalin pact so the local Poles had never seen a Soviet Commisar at the point that they killed my uncle, Jewish or otherwise.
     
    And if they did believe the rumors - later proven to be true - of Jews joining the Stalinist secret police en masse, I guess that just proves how vicious anti-Semites they were, or something.

    Local anti-semites were very active even before the war began – my father’s little town was the scene of a famous “pogrom” in 1936, which was sort of a foreshadowing of things to come.
     
    It was a bit more complicated then that, Jews were not mere objects but also subjects of history.

    On the other hand, there were a few truly righteous Poles who risked their own lives to shelter Jews – these people deserve a special spot in heaven. The fact that such people existed shows that it WAS possible.
     
    Yes, it was possible, but for most people saving their own and their families lives came first. How can you not understand this? You seriously do come across as someone who thinks gentiles' primary purpose in life is to save Jews at the expense of their own and their family members' lives.

    The Church in other parts of Europe (e.g. France) was sometimes more helpful, but as I mentioned before, the Church in Poland was a center of anti-Semitic thought and the last thing on their mind was helping the people who had killed Jesus.
     
    You failed to answer my point that the Church in Poland couldn't save a full fifth of its own clergy. They were in no position to save the Jews.

    The problem is that Jews were only around 10% of the total population of Poland, so 2 or 3 million gentiles killed was loss of 1 out of 10 while for the Jews the same loss was 9 out of 10. After the war was over, Poland still existed, but its 1,000 year old Jewish community was virtually extinct.
     
    Yes, but gentile Poland also suffered a brutal trauma, and they were in no position to save anyone else. Heck, they couldn't save 10% of their own population.

    I would have accepted mere indifference by the Poles
     
    How generous of you!

    their willingness to sometimes conduct their own pogroms even without the German’s help
     
    Those pogroms certainly didn't kill more Jews than the number of gentile Poles killed by Jewish communists. There were apparently some bad apples among both Poles and Jews.
    , @reiner Tor

    On the other hand, there were a few truly righteous Poles who risked their own lives to shelter Jews – these people deserve a special spot in heaven. The fact that such people existed shows that it WAS possible.
     
    I also don't think it would have scaled well. A few people with extra food reserves could shelter a few Jews, but there just didn't exist food reserves on such a scale for so many people.
  122. @Jack D
    My father was from the portion of Poland that was given to the Germans in the Hitler/Stalin pact so the local Poles had never seen a Soviet Commisar at the point that they killed my uncle, Jewish or otherwise. Local anti-semites were very active even before the war began - my father's little town was the scene of a famous "pogrom" in 1936, which was sort of a foreshadowing of things to come. The locals were hounding the Jews to leave for Palestine. I wish that my father and his family had taken their advice, but they felt (at that time) that they were also a citizens of Poland and had as much right to remain in the country where their ancestors had lived for hundreds of years as anyone else.

    I would have accepted mere indifference by the Poles but their willingness to sometimes conduct their own pogroms even without the German's help and their willingness to sell out their Jewish neighbors for a few kilos of sugar went well beyond mere indifference in many cases. On the other hand, there were a few truly righteous Poles who risked their own lives to shelter Jews - these people deserve a special spot in heaven. The fact that such people existed shows that it WAS possible. The Church in other parts of Europe (e.g. France) was sometimes more helpful, but as I mentioned before, the Church in Poland was a center of anti-Semitic thought and the last thing on their mind was helping the people who had killed Jesus.

    The number of Jewish and Catholic Polish citizens killed during the war was roughly equal. The problem is that Jews were only around 10% of the total population of Poland, so 2 or 3 million gentiles killed was loss of 1 out of 10 while for the Jews the same loss was 9 out of 10. After the war was over, Poland still existed, but its 1,000 year old Jewish community was virtually extinct.

    The difference between the German treatment of the non-Jewish vs Jewish Polish population was this: the Nazis were interested in killing certain Polish Catholics for what they did - resistance, membership in the intelligentsia, etc. but they wanted to kill every last Jew regardless of what they did or did not do. Their long term goal was to clear Poland of the non-Jewish population as well, in order to create lebensraum for Germans, but they did not reach that phase before the war ended - that was supposed to happen later, maybe after the war was over, but the extermination of the Jews was an immediate priority project. The Germans did run a few Polish villages thru Auschwitz as a sort of a test, but for the most part if you were a Polish gentile you had to have done "something" to attract the German's attention.

    My father was from the portion of Poland that was given to the Germans in the Hitler/Stalin pact so the local Poles had never seen a Soviet Commisar at the point that they killed my uncle, Jewish or otherwise.

    And if they did believe the rumors – later proven to be true – of Jews joining the Stalinist secret police en masse, I guess that just proves how vicious anti-Semites they were, or something.

    Local anti-semites were very active even before the war began – my father’s little town was the scene of a famous “pogrom” in 1936, which was sort of a foreshadowing of things to come.

    It was a bit more complicated then that, Jews were not mere objects but also subjects of history.

    On the other hand, there were a few truly righteous Poles who risked their own lives to shelter Jews – these people deserve a special spot in heaven. The fact that such people existed shows that it WAS possible.

    Yes, it was possible, but for most people saving their own and their families lives came first. How can you not understand this? You seriously do come across as someone who thinks gentiles’ primary purpose in life is to save Jews at the expense of their own and their family members’ lives.

    The Church in other parts of Europe (e.g. France) was sometimes more helpful, but as I mentioned before, the Church in Poland was a center of anti-Semitic thought and the last thing on their mind was helping the people who had killed Jesus.

    You failed to answer my point that the Church in Poland couldn’t save a full fifth of its own clergy. They were in no position to save the Jews.

    The problem is that Jews were only around 10% of the total population of Poland, so 2 or 3 million gentiles killed was loss of 1 out of 10 while for the Jews the same loss was 9 out of 10. After the war was over, Poland still existed, but its 1,000 year old Jewish community was virtually extinct.

    Yes, but gentile Poland also suffered a brutal trauma, and they were in no position to save anyone else. Heck, they couldn’t save 10% of their own population.

    I would have accepted mere indifference by the Poles

    How generous of you!

    their willingness to sometimes conduct their own pogroms even without the German’s help

    Those pogroms certainly didn’t kill more Jews than the number of gentile Poles killed by Jewish communists. There were apparently some bad apples among both Poles and Jews.

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    • Replies: @Jack D

    It was a bit more complicated then that, Jews were not mere objects but also subjects of history.
     
    That's for sure - the people who kicked the Arab's asses in Palestine after the war did not just miraculously spring up - many Jews in prewar Poland also believed in self defense and the were a fair match for the Polish rabble if not for the German war machine. Jabotinsky said that it's better to have a gun and not need it than to need a gun and not have it.

    But anyway, my father was there that day and Gontarczyk was not and it didn't go down the way he says. Gontarczyk , BTW, also said that Lech Walesa was a Communist spy - he's not the most credible guy. Don't believe everything you read on Wikipedia.

    What Gontarczyk misses is the moral dimension here. Imagine that you are a white guy who has a shop in a black neighborhood - it's your family business, it's been there forever. One day some Black Muslims start picketing your shop with signs that say "Don't buy from whitey! Only buy from your black brothers!" . At first, many of your loyal customers ignore the pickets - they've known you for years and like the quality of your merchandise and your prices. But then some of the picketers beat up any blacks who dare to cross their picket line. You call City Hall, but you live in Detroit and the guys who run the government are black too and secretly (or not so secretly) sympathize with the picketers so they don't do anything for you. Under those circumstances, would you be justified in getting together with your fellow white shopkeepers and beating the crap out of the pickets? In situations like this (e.g. the Boston Massacre) it doesn't matter who fired the first shot or threw the first rock - what matters is that one side is fighting for an evil and oppressive cause.

  123. @Jack D
    My father was from the portion of Poland that was given to the Germans in the Hitler/Stalin pact so the local Poles had never seen a Soviet Commisar at the point that they killed my uncle, Jewish or otherwise. Local anti-semites were very active even before the war began - my father's little town was the scene of a famous "pogrom" in 1936, which was sort of a foreshadowing of things to come. The locals were hounding the Jews to leave for Palestine. I wish that my father and his family had taken their advice, but they felt (at that time) that they were also a citizens of Poland and had as much right to remain in the country where their ancestors had lived for hundreds of years as anyone else.

    I would have accepted mere indifference by the Poles but their willingness to sometimes conduct their own pogroms even without the German's help and their willingness to sell out their Jewish neighbors for a few kilos of sugar went well beyond mere indifference in many cases. On the other hand, there were a few truly righteous Poles who risked their own lives to shelter Jews - these people deserve a special spot in heaven. The fact that such people existed shows that it WAS possible. The Church in other parts of Europe (e.g. France) was sometimes more helpful, but as I mentioned before, the Church in Poland was a center of anti-Semitic thought and the last thing on their mind was helping the people who had killed Jesus.

    The number of Jewish and Catholic Polish citizens killed during the war was roughly equal. The problem is that Jews were only around 10% of the total population of Poland, so 2 or 3 million gentiles killed was loss of 1 out of 10 while for the Jews the same loss was 9 out of 10. After the war was over, Poland still existed, but its 1,000 year old Jewish community was virtually extinct.

    The difference between the German treatment of the non-Jewish vs Jewish Polish population was this: the Nazis were interested in killing certain Polish Catholics for what they did - resistance, membership in the intelligentsia, etc. but they wanted to kill every last Jew regardless of what they did or did not do. Their long term goal was to clear Poland of the non-Jewish population as well, in order to create lebensraum for Germans, but they did not reach that phase before the war ended - that was supposed to happen later, maybe after the war was over, but the extermination of the Jews was an immediate priority project. The Germans did run a few Polish villages thru Auschwitz as a sort of a test, but for the most part if you were a Polish gentile you had to have done "something" to attract the German's attention.

    On the other hand, there were a few truly righteous Poles who risked their own lives to shelter Jews – these people deserve a special spot in heaven. The fact that such people existed shows that it WAS possible.

    I also don’t think it would have scaled well. A few people with extra food reserves could shelter a few Jews, but there just didn’t exist food reserves on such a scale for so many people.

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  124. Old Jew says:
    @D. K.
    I quite realize how an intelligent (gentile) man sounds to a Jew like you, Jack, yes, as I had noted in my previous comment, to which you were here responding.

    So, you tell me, Jack: How many dead ("murdered") Jews are necessary for you to be satisfied? If someone agrees with the 5.1 million figure of the late "Dean of Holocaust Scholars" who was mentioned by someone else, above, Raul Hilberg, is that death toll high enough for him or her to avoid prosecution and persecution as a "Holocaust denier!" by you and your ilk? What is the minimum number of deaths needed to avoid such a black label, Jack?

    (At what level of deaths, proportionally, did the Holocaust actually become the Holocaust? Or, was the malign intention itself enough to make the Holocaust the Holocaust, even if the Germans had failed to murder a single Jew?)

    Perhaps most interestingly, Jack, to someone like myself, who also was trained in Personality and Social Psychology: Why does the very thought of fewer Jews' having been deliberately murdered by the German regime, between January 30, 1933, and May 8, 1945, seem to incense Jews like yourself, rather than provide a small measure of relief that all of those additional Jews, totaling to the full six million, had not, in fact, been killed?

    If I thought that all seven of my surviving siblings had been murdered at a family get-together that I was unable to attend, and then I learned that even one of them had survived, for whatever reason, I would be immeasurably relieved, despite my overall grief at the loss of the others!?! Is that just my "goyishe kop" running away with me, Jack?

    Your question is legitimate.

    Why a million Holocaust survivors?

    60 years ago as a kid I thought that only Jews (like my stepmother) that returned from Asschwitz were Holocaust survivors.
    Lately ‘they” decided that all Soviet Jews, that had to leave their homes during the war, during the war are to be counted. Many Jews were evacuated with their families, and with the equipment of the factories and plants they associated with, deep deep behind the front lines. The heavy industry was reassembled, rebuild in Siberia, Uzbekistan, etc and continued to arm the Red Army. They endured extreme hardship but the fate of the Russian factory men was not better. Israel ought to count these Russian also as Holocaust Survivors.

    When occupying Bukowina, eastern Poland, the Baltic’s, etc, the Soviets arrested the rich, bourgeois elements (no trials no reason given) and sent them to Siberia. Those Jews included had a better chance to survive there in Siberia, than the Jewish lower classes left to fend for themselves under the Germans.

    The percentage of Jews in the Red Army on the front, was way larger than the percentage of Jews in the populace.

    I did not research whether they are also counted as Holocaust survivors. I heard stories of Jews
    that left with the retreating Soviets, because they believed in the system. On June 22nd 1941, my family in Czernowitz did not know what the Romanian Army, had in store for them. They were happy that the threat to be picked up at night and sent to Siberia was gone.

    But then reality, the Ghetto ( I was born there0 deportation to Transnistria, hit hard, very hard.

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    • Replies: @D. K.
    Thank you, sincerely, for a thoughtful and civil response, rather than assuming, as some do, that asking questions, per se, is malicious, perhaps even to the point of being ideationally genocidal.
  125. @Jack D
    Poland was also mostly Catholic and around 90% of the Jews in that country were murdered. Poland had a very mixed record concerning the Jews - a few bravely took measures to hide Jews from the Germans at great risk to themselves, some actively participated in the extermination or were willing to sell Jews out for trifling rewards from the Germans (a few kilos of sugar) and most were at best indifferent or glad to see the Jews go even if they did not participate (and certainly weren't going to risk their own hides to help). The Polish Church did not see the extermination of the Jews as something that it should be concerned with - they didn't really like the Christ killers before the war and really would have preferred that they convert or leave the country. While they never would have pursued genocide on their own, when it began they did not regard it as their problem or see any duty to prevent it.

    Italy had a tiny Jewish community - 50,000 in total, most of whom were very well integrated (e.g. the Italian Jews all spoke Italian as their daily language). This was about as many Jews for the entire country as you would have found in any one medium sized Polish city.

    I knew a fair number of Polish-Americans growing up, and while none of them had much good to say about Jews, I also never met one that had much good to say about the Nazis, not did any of them really actively hate Jews either. The general attitude was ,”God bless the Jews and keep them…..just so long as it’s away from us.”

    Many of them did have a much stronger adversity toward blacks, Puerto Ricans and Mexicans, because they tended to come into the Polish neighborhoods and cause all sorts of havoc. They also tended to drive real estate prices down, and most of these people had no other investments to speak of besides their well maintained row houses. Also, a lot of them had potentially dangerous factory jobs and they all felt that black co-workers tended to be a work hazard because they had poor judgment. One of the guys I used to know from the model airplane club I hung around with and was mentored by was an old Polish foundryman that had a wooden leg. It seemed that a black apprentice took it upon himself to move a crucible and knocked it over, burning the man’s leg so badly it had to be amputated below the knee.

    Generally, I think the Poles were of at least average and sometimes above average intelligence, but their social skills were a little lacking. They seemed to have a penchant for machine shop, foundry, and steel mill type work or were plumbers or electricians. Most of their kids became engineers or wound up in corporate jobs with insurance companies and the like. A few went to work for the city.

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  126. @Jack D
    "In all, the Germans deported 8,564 Jews from Italy, Italian-occupied France, and the islands of Rhodes and Kos, most of them to Auschwitz-Birkenau. 1,009 returned."

    http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005455

    So, would it have made you feel better if Cohen had written, " They were unloaded from trucks and packed into wooden boxcars made to transport six horses but used for some 80 human beings, of whom 70 were doomed and 10 would barely escape with their lives"? What % of the Jews of Europe would have had to die before you weren't complaining that not enough of them were killed? Is not Auschwitz horrifying enough if "only" a million people were gassed there? For a self-described "intelligent" man, do you realize how stupid that makes you sound?

    A lot of people died at Auschwitz, etc, but not all or even nearly all of them Jews, and while I don’t believe most of them did anything to deserve what happened to them, that’s also true of most people who die in wars. But soley because of the Jews, ex post facto laws were enacted and huge numbers of Germans were tried at Nuremberg, making a mockery of international law forever. Soley because of the Jews, we have to hear about the Holocaust forever and in most countries cannot challenge any statement the current (and changeable) official line dictates under statutes that specifically state “the truth is no defense”. Soley because they were Jews, the United States is expected to a country that has spied on us, tried to sink one of our warships, and generally shows unbridled contempt for our majority religion and our majority population with an unlimited reserve of foreign aid, forever.

    Then, just to top this bowl of “chocolate bits and peppermints in blueberry sauce” (anyone who has worked the ramp knows what I mean) off with the special kosher whipped cream, they call people who are actually Semites whom they accuse of hatred of a people who are mostly not Semites at all of “antisemitism”.

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  127. Jack D says:
    @reiner Tor

    My father was from the portion of Poland that was given to the Germans in the Hitler/Stalin pact so the local Poles had never seen a Soviet Commisar at the point that they killed my uncle, Jewish or otherwise.
     
    And if they did believe the rumors - later proven to be true - of Jews joining the Stalinist secret police en masse, I guess that just proves how vicious anti-Semites they were, or something.

    Local anti-semites were very active even before the war began – my father’s little town was the scene of a famous “pogrom” in 1936, which was sort of a foreshadowing of things to come.
     
    It was a bit more complicated then that, Jews were not mere objects but also subjects of history.

    On the other hand, there were a few truly righteous Poles who risked their own lives to shelter Jews – these people deserve a special spot in heaven. The fact that such people existed shows that it WAS possible.
     
    Yes, it was possible, but for most people saving their own and their families lives came first. How can you not understand this? You seriously do come across as someone who thinks gentiles' primary purpose in life is to save Jews at the expense of their own and their family members' lives.

    The Church in other parts of Europe (e.g. France) was sometimes more helpful, but as I mentioned before, the Church in Poland was a center of anti-Semitic thought and the last thing on their mind was helping the people who had killed Jesus.
     
    You failed to answer my point that the Church in Poland couldn't save a full fifth of its own clergy. They were in no position to save the Jews.

    The problem is that Jews were only around 10% of the total population of Poland, so 2 or 3 million gentiles killed was loss of 1 out of 10 while for the Jews the same loss was 9 out of 10. After the war was over, Poland still existed, but its 1,000 year old Jewish community was virtually extinct.
     
    Yes, but gentile Poland also suffered a brutal trauma, and they were in no position to save anyone else. Heck, they couldn't save 10% of their own population.

    I would have accepted mere indifference by the Poles
     
    How generous of you!

    their willingness to sometimes conduct their own pogroms even without the German’s help
     
    Those pogroms certainly didn't kill more Jews than the number of gentile Poles killed by Jewish communists. There were apparently some bad apples among both Poles and Jews.

    It was a bit more complicated then that, Jews were not mere objects but also subjects of history.

    That’s for sure – the people who kicked the Arab’s asses in Palestine after the war did not just miraculously spring up – many Jews in prewar Poland also believed in self defense and the were a fair match for the Polish rabble if not for the German war machine. Jabotinsky said that it’s better to have a gun and not need it than to need a gun and not have it.

    But anyway, my father was there that day and Gontarczyk was not and it didn’t go down the way he says. Gontarczyk , BTW, also said that Lech Walesa was a Communist spy – he’s not the most credible guy. Don’t believe everything you read on Wikipedia.

    What Gontarczyk misses is the moral dimension here. Imagine that you are a white guy who has a shop in a black neighborhood – it’s your family business, it’s been there forever. One day some Black Muslims start picketing your shop with signs that say “Don’t buy from whitey! Only buy from your black brothers!” . At first, many of your loyal customers ignore the pickets – they’ve known you for years and like the quality of your merchandise and your prices. But then some of the picketers beat up any blacks who dare to cross their picket line. You call City Hall, but you live in Detroit and the guys who run the government are black too and secretly (or not so secretly) sympathize with the picketers so they don’t do anything for you. Under those circumstances, would you be justified in getting together with your fellow white shopkeepers and beating the crap out of the pickets? In situations like this (e.g. the Boston Massacre) it doesn’t matter who fired the first shot or threw the first rock – what matters is that one side is fighting for an evil and oppressive cause.

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    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    Gentile whites were usually doing OK in the absence of Jews. Blacks in the absence of whites... not so much. Like Poland is not worse without Jews than it was with them. Detroit, on the other hand...

    However it was (and anonymous online commenters' fathers are hardly the last voice on the question, especially since they might have been involved and so they might not have been the most objective possible observers), as I said there could have been a few bad apples among Poles. Chewing on long bygone incidents involving a few hundred people at most while glossing over the fact that occasionally Jews also did harm to Poles on a larger scale (like joining the communist secret police or leading the communist party and government after the war) will not convince anybody here. It will perhaps invite the following passage from the New Testament: "And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?"

    Let your murdered relatives rest in peace.

  128. @Jack D
    "In all, the Germans deported 8,564 Jews from Italy, Italian-occupied France, and the islands of Rhodes and Kos, most of them to Auschwitz-Birkenau. 1,009 returned."

    http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005455

    So, would it have made you feel better if Cohen had written, " They were unloaded from trucks and packed into wooden boxcars made to transport six horses but used for some 80 human beings, of whom 70 were doomed and 10 would barely escape with their lives"? What % of the Jews of Europe would have had to die before you weren't complaining that not enough of them were killed? Is not Auschwitz horrifying enough if "only" a million people were gassed there? For a self-described "intelligent" man, do you realize how stupid that makes you sound?

    So, would it have made you feel better if Cohen had written, ” They were unloaded from trucks and packed into wooden boxcars made to transport six horses but used for some 80 human beings, of whom 70 were doomed and 10 would barely escape with their lives”?

    That’s not what it said. It said that 12% returned, not that 12% survived.

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  129. D. K. says:
    @Old Jew
    Your question is legitimate.

    Why a million Holocaust survivors?

    60 years ago as a kid I thought that only Jews (like my stepmother) that returned from Asschwitz were Holocaust survivors.
    Lately 'they" decided that all Soviet Jews, that had to leave their homes during the war, during the war are to be counted. Many Jews were evacuated with their families, and with the equipment of the factories and plants they associated with, deep deep behind the front lines. The heavy industry was reassembled, rebuild in Siberia, Uzbekistan, etc and continued to arm the Red Army. They endured extreme hardship but the fate of the Russian factory men was not better. Israel ought to count these Russian also as Holocaust Survivors.

    When occupying Bukowina, eastern Poland, the Baltic's, etc, the Soviets arrested the rich, bourgeois elements (no trials no reason given) and sent them to Siberia. Those Jews included had a better chance to survive there in Siberia, than the Jewish lower classes left to fend for themselves under the Germans.

    The percentage of Jews in the Red Army on the front, was way larger than the percentage of Jews in the populace.

    I did not research whether they are also counted as Holocaust survivors. I heard stories of Jews
    that left with the retreating Soviets, because they believed in the system. On June 22nd 1941, my family in Czernowitz did not know what the Romanian Army, had in store for them. They were happy that the threat to be picked up at night and sent to Siberia was gone.

    But then reality, the Ghetto ( I was born there0 deportation to Transnistria, hit hard, very hard.

    Thank you, sincerely, for a thoughtful and civil response, rather than assuming, as some do, that asking questions, per se, is malicious, perhaps even to the point of being ideationally genocidal.

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  130. @Jack D

    It was a bit more complicated then that, Jews were not mere objects but also subjects of history.
     
    That's for sure - the people who kicked the Arab's asses in Palestine after the war did not just miraculously spring up - many Jews in prewar Poland also believed in self defense and the were a fair match for the Polish rabble if not for the German war machine. Jabotinsky said that it's better to have a gun and not need it than to need a gun and not have it.

    But anyway, my father was there that day and Gontarczyk was not and it didn't go down the way he says. Gontarczyk , BTW, also said that Lech Walesa was a Communist spy - he's not the most credible guy. Don't believe everything you read on Wikipedia.

    What Gontarczyk misses is the moral dimension here. Imagine that you are a white guy who has a shop in a black neighborhood - it's your family business, it's been there forever. One day some Black Muslims start picketing your shop with signs that say "Don't buy from whitey! Only buy from your black brothers!" . At first, many of your loyal customers ignore the pickets - they've known you for years and like the quality of your merchandise and your prices. But then some of the picketers beat up any blacks who dare to cross their picket line. You call City Hall, but you live in Detroit and the guys who run the government are black too and secretly (or not so secretly) sympathize with the picketers so they don't do anything for you. Under those circumstances, would you be justified in getting together with your fellow white shopkeepers and beating the crap out of the pickets? In situations like this (e.g. the Boston Massacre) it doesn't matter who fired the first shot or threw the first rock - what matters is that one side is fighting for an evil and oppressive cause.

    Gentile whites were usually doing OK in the absence of Jews. Blacks in the absence of whites… not so much. Like Poland is not worse without Jews than it was with them. Detroit, on the other hand…

    However it was (and anonymous online commenters’ fathers are hardly the last voice on the question, especially since they might have been involved and so they might not have been the most objective possible observers), as I said there could have been a few bad apples among Poles. Chewing on long bygone incidents involving a few hundred people at most while glossing over the fact that occasionally Jews also did harm to Poles on a larger scale (like joining the communist secret police or leading the communist party and government after the war) will not convince anybody here. It will perhaps invite the following passage from the New Testament: “And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?”

    Let your murdered relatives rest in peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jack D
    Israel GDP per capita 2014 US$37,031.7
    Poland "" $14,422.8

    So I'd say that the Jews are doing better without Poland than Poland is doing without Jews.

    As far as Jews leading the Communist government, you left out a part of the history. In 1968, the few remaining Jews in Poland, most of whom were loyal Communists, were AGAIN the victims of an anti-Semitic purge, this time from WITHIN the Communist Party.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1968_Polish_political_crisis

    I have to say that present day democratic Poland finally seems cured of its disease of anti-Semitism. When I visited the people were unfailingly polite and many seem interested in their lost Jewish communities and dealing honestly with their history, which is more than I can say for you. "Jew = Bolshevik" was one of Hitler's favorite tunes and it hasn't gotten any better with age. It doesn't really explain Polish anti-Semitism very well at all.
  131. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Paul Walker Most beautiful man ever...
    "I think the sensible solution is to pay a peaceful, stable, middle-income country to accept migrants".
    Australia just cut a deal with the Philippines to take its illegals, so yeah. I think the plan is to change Europe, so it won't be considered.
    BTW, I read that Hitler had the idea to ship jews to Madagascar. Pretty nice climate really.

    Eichmann planned to have the SS run the Madagascar Jewish settlement like a giant concentration camp.

    Read More
  132. Jack D says:
    @reiner Tor
    Gentile whites were usually doing OK in the absence of Jews. Blacks in the absence of whites... not so much. Like Poland is not worse without Jews than it was with them. Detroit, on the other hand...

    However it was (and anonymous online commenters' fathers are hardly the last voice on the question, especially since they might have been involved and so they might not have been the most objective possible observers), as I said there could have been a few bad apples among Poles. Chewing on long bygone incidents involving a few hundred people at most while glossing over the fact that occasionally Jews also did harm to Poles on a larger scale (like joining the communist secret police or leading the communist party and government after the war) will not convince anybody here. It will perhaps invite the following passage from the New Testament: "And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?"

    Let your murdered relatives rest in peace.

    Israel GDP per capita 2014 US$37,031.7
    Poland “” $14,422.8

    So I’d say that the Jews are doing better without Poland than Poland is doing without Jews.

    As far as Jews leading the Communist government, you left out a part of the history. In 1968, the few remaining Jews in Poland, most of whom were loyal Communists, were AGAIN the victims of an anti-Semitic purge, this time from WITHIN the Communist Party.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1968_Polish_political_crisis

    I have to say that present day democratic Poland finally seems cured of its disease of anti-Semitism. When I visited the people were unfailingly polite and many seem interested in their lost Jewish communities and dealing honestly with their history, which is more than I can say for you. “Jew = Bolshevik” was one of Hitler’s favorite tunes and it hasn’t gotten any better with age. It doesn’t really explain Polish anti-Semitism very well at all.

    Read More
    • Replies: @The most deplorable one
    Did you forget about all the money that the US, ahhh, donates to Israel?

    Also, did you forget about tax farming?

  133. The most deplorable one [AKA "Fourth doorman of the apocalypse"] says:
    @Jack D
    Israel GDP per capita 2014 US$37,031.7
    Poland "" $14,422.8

    So I'd say that the Jews are doing better without Poland than Poland is doing without Jews.

    As far as Jews leading the Communist government, you left out a part of the history. In 1968, the few remaining Jews in Poland, most of whom were loyal Communists, were AGAIN the victims of an anti-Semitic purge, this time from WITHIN the Communist Party.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1968_Polish_political_crisis

    I have to say that present day democratic Poland finally seems cured of its disease of anti-Semitism. When I visited the people were unfailingly polite and many seem interested in their lost Jewish communities and dealing honestly with their history, which is more than I can say for you. "Jew = Bolshevik" was one of Hitler's favorite tunes and it hasn't gotten any better with age. It doesn't really explain Polish anti-Semitism very well at all.

    Did you forget about all the money that the US, ahhh, donates to Israel?

    Also, did you forget about tax farming?

    Read More
    • Replies: @SFG
    US aid to Israel is $3 billion, population of Israel's about 8 million. So we'd expect a GDP per capita bump of about $375, not tens of thousands.

    I'm actually surprised Poland's number is so low; I guess being conquered by Russia does a lot of damage for a while.

    About the tax farming: sure, but they often weren't allowed to do anything else.

    Honestly, minorities either assimilate or face prejudice--either more or less success than average is going to make you enemies for different reasons. The exception is places like the USA where the country's so huge everyone can get their little corner.

  134. SFG says:
    @The most deplorable one
    Did you forget about all the money that the US, ahhh, donates to Israel?

    Also, did you forget about tax farming?

    US aid to Israel is $3 billion, population of Israel’s about 8 million. So we’d expect a GDP per capita bump of about $375, not tens of thousands.

    I’m actually surprised Poland’s number is so low; I guess being conquered by Russia does a lot of damage for a while.

    About the tax farming: sure, but they often weren’t allowed to do anything else.

    Honestly, minorities either assimilate or face prejudice–either more or less success than average is going to make you enemies for different reasons. The exception is places like the USA where the country’s so huge everyone can get their little corner.

    Read More
  135. Ace says:
    @Massimo Heitor

    If the Euros want to destroy their countries by letting in millions of Arabs, that’s their look out. People like Cohen may be cheering it on, but they aren’t the ones doing it, the Euros are doing it to themselves.
     
    I disagree. Regular Europeans oppose mass immigration, but the elites are forcing it against popular will. They are actively "undermining" popular resistance to mass immigration and the destruction of their ethnic identity.

    And when the wave of immigrants is granted full voting rights, the native Europeans will have a harder time even influencing their own vote.

    I think the people have more responsibility for their fate than your idea of elite manipulation suggests.

    First, European voters simply refuse to support salvationist parties at the polls. It’s effortless, safe, and free. But the FN and the PVV measure success at the polls in single digits. Austrians just returned the usual suspects to power when they could have jammed a rocket up the noses of the immigration fanatics and sellouts.

    Second, a recent PEGIDA rally in Dresden was attended by 15,000 people. It was the largest of all PEGIDA rallies that day or week. On 10/10/15, between 100,000 and 250,000 Germans demonstrated in Berlin against the TTIP (trade agreement). I mean, that’s got to speak volumes about what energizes Germans. Losing their country seems to be a low-priority problem. Outdated textbooks in the schools will probably bring 5,000,000 into the streets.

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  136. Anon says: • Disclaimer

    Steve,

    You’re the scorpion striking the frog’s back.

    You reliably will not argue against the far-right’s biases, falsehoods, and even genocide threats against high-IQ minorities.

    Whenever your readers want to grow up, they have to stop reading your site in order to do so.

    Read More
  137. Anon says: • Disclaimer

    Steve,

    You’re the scorpion striking the frog.

    These sites are filled with far-right biases and even genocide threats. And you encourage it.

    Read More

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