The Unz Review - Mobile
A Collection of Interesting, Important, and Controversial Perspectives Largely Excluded from the American Mainstream Media
 TeasersiSteve Blog
The Fall of Cousin Marriage and the Rise of the West
🔊 Listen RSS
Email This Page to Someone

 Remember My Information



=>

Bookmark Toggle AllToCAdd to LibraryRemove from Library • BShow CommentNext New CommentNext New Reply
Search Text Case Sensitive  Exact Words  Include Comments
List of Bookmarks

From CeDEx:

The Churches’ Bans on Consanguineous Marriages, Kin-Networks and Democracy

Jonathan F. Schulz
Yale University, Department of Psychology

November 29, 2016

Abstract:
This paper highlights the role of kin-networks for the functioning of democracy: countries with strong extended families as characterized by a high level of cousin marriages exhibit a weak rule of law and are more likely autocratic. To assess causality, I exploit a quasi-natural experiment. In the early medieval ages the Church started to prohibit kin-marriages. Using the variation in the duration and extent of the Eastern and Western Churches’ bans on consanguineous marriages as instrumental variables, reveals highly significant point estimates of the percentage of cousin marriage on an index of democracy. An additional novel instrument, cousin-terms, strengthens this point: the estimates are very similar and do not rest on the European experience alone. Exploiting within country variation of cousin marriages in Italy, as well as within variation of a ‘societal marriage pressure’ indicator for a larger set of countries support these results. These findings point to a causal effect of marriage patterns on the proper functioning of formal institutions and democracy. The study further suggests that the Churches’ marriage rules – by destroying extended kin-groups – led Europe on its special path of institutional and democratic development.

Screenshot 2016-12-11 21.21.56… This research advances the hypothesis and empirically demonstrates that the strength of extended kin-groups (as proxied by cousin marriage) is most likely at the core of the large developmental differences in institutional quality and democracy across countries: excessive reliance and loyalty, nepotism, violent conflict and other contingencies of strong extended kin-groups impede the proper functioning of formal institutions. Furthermore, this study suggests that a specific historic event – the Church ban on consanguineous marriage (marriage of the same blood) – constituted a critical juncture leading Europe to a special path in its economic and institutional development.

The idea that extended kin-networks play a decisive role in institutional and economic outcomes is old. The early Christian theologian St. Augustine (354 – 430) propagated a ban on consanguineous marriages by pointing out that marrying outside the kin-group enlarges the range of social relations and “should thereby bind social life more effectively by involving a greater number of people in them” (Augustine, 1998, p. 665). For Weber (1958), the disappearance of extended kin-groups in Europe is one of the central preconditions for the development of public law and the political state (see also Goody, 1990 on Weber’s view).

On the other hand, Protestantism wasn’t always against cousin marriage: e.g., Charles Darwin married his Wedgwood first cousin. But I don’t know how common this was. I believe that it was American eugenicists who launched the modern aversion toward cousin marriage in Protestant countries.

Screenshot 2016-12-11 21.19.26

 
Hide 148 CommentsLeave a Comment
Commenters to Ignore...to FollowEndorsed Only
    []
  1. dearieme says:

    Protestantism, especially in Germany, depended on support from princes, nobles and wealthy burghers. Might such people choose cousin marriages to accumulate property? That might have the opposite incentive structure from the Roman Church which was delighted to have families not accumulating property but leaving it to the church instead.

    So my suspicion is that Protestant churchmen often frowned on cousin marriages but didn’t ban them.

    Mind you, what about the Habsburgs? The usual Roman Catholic exemption for anyone important enough?

    I conjecture that there would be a rise in cousin marriages among royalty when the number of German statelets was reduced from Napoleon onwards, because the number of suitable royal marriage candidates decreased. Frinstance Queen Victoria.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anon
    It was always possible to ask for an exemption. Sure, the educated, wealthy, and powerful were more likely to exploit this. But today, they're just as likely, if not more, to get ridiculous tax exemptions, holes, etc.
    , @Lot
    The Holy Roman Empire was useful for royal breeding because there were all sorts of small towns that were sovereign states with royal rulers. Title inflation!

    An source of growth of Protestantism was that bishops and abbots could convert, marry their mistress, and declare their bastard their heir to a new duchy covering their territory.
    , @Mack Bolan
    There are a lot of cousin marriages within the Jewish population especially among the Hasidic Jews. Some be because of low population to choose from within, but I believe much of is an attempt to keep wealth in the family.
    , @Travis
    As part of his criticism on the practices of the Roman Catholic Church, Martin Luther had condemned the ban on cousin marriages, since according to Divine Rule as revealed in Leviticus 18:7–18, there should be no impediment to marriage between first cousins. Accordingly, first-cousin marriages were accepted by the Protestant denominations.
    , @Olorin

    Might such people choose cousin marriages to accumulate property? That might have the opposite incentive structure from the Roman Church which was delighted to have families not accumulating property but leaving it to the church instead.
     
    This is how I've leaned in my general readings on the topic, dearie.

    Not just leaving property to the church but actively interfering in people's familial relationships for institutional gain. Does any other religion require its adherents to call strangers by biological titles like "father" and recognize their authority over one's actual father's?

    Cousin marriages imply a closeness and orchestration of resources and alliances between siblings very different from that in a religious regime where strangers are called "brother" and "sister."

    The regulation of the reproductive impulse has been part of all human societies, by instinct or regulation. Some societies and regimes have been far more assertive in this...and some have been more geared to exploit the impulse for systematic gain.

    It calls to my mind how today's Christian denoms try to confuse people about the biological fact of race and demonize reproductive impulses to be drawn to similar people. This is done with massive programs of propaganda and punishment around universalism and forced race-mixing.

    Who is making billions off of that? Who profits? Who pays?

    A good source on this IME is the chapter on "Marriage" in Geoffrey Nathan's The Family in Late Antiquity: The Rise of Christianity and the Endurance of Tradition.

    https://www.amazon.com/Family-Late-Antiquity-Christianity-Endurance/dp/041564240X

    Among his conclusions that I agree with is that it is an error to consider all correlations as causal where changes in late antiquity are related to Christianity.

    This is an error I commonly see in HBD circles, including HBDChick and Kevin MacDonald.

    Imagine if some future thinkers looked back to any possible upcoming Trumpian improvements in the West…then attributed them to the later "Great Society" propaganda about race mixing/universalism…instead of to a conscious Deplorable turnaround/rejection of racial breeding habits proven to result in regression to a lower population mean for higher-mean populations. And who is going to compete more effectively with the churches for power--lower- or higher-mean populations?

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
    AgreeDisagreeLOLTroll
    These buttons register your public Agreement, Disagreement, Troll, or LOL with the selected comment. They are ONLY available to recent, frequent commenters who have saved their Name+Email using the 'Remember My Information' checkbox, and may also ONLY be used once per hour.
    Ignore Commenter Follow Commenter
    Sharing Comment via Twitter
    /isteve/the-rise-of-the-west-and-the-fall-of-cousin-marriage/#comment-1688748
    More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  2. Dan Hayes says:

    In several venues, Kevin MacDonald has previously favorably commented on the Roman Catholic Church’s ban on consanguineous marriage. But then MacDonald is the ultimate Deplorable!

    Read More
    • Replies: @PA Polka
    An excellent article by Kevin MacDonald on the role of the RC Church in propagating monogamy and the nuclear family in Europe and its positive contribution to Western Civilization.


    http://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/2013/04/monogamy-and-the-uniqueness-of-european-civilization/
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  3. Jefferson says:

    Who came up with the extremely ridiculous myth that incest sex is way more common among White Southerners than it is among any other demographic group on the planet?

    I guarantee cousin fucking is way more common in Somalia and Syria than it is in South Carolina.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    "Incestuous child group-sex ring uncovered in Alabama"

    https://nypost.com/2014/11/01/incestuous-child-group-sex-ring-uncovered-in-alabama/

    BAY MINETTE, Ala. — By most accounts, 19-year-old Brittney Wood was with uncle Donnie Holland the night of May 30, 2012, the last time anyone saw her. Holland — who was under investigation for horrific sex crimes at the time — died from a bullet within days in what was ruled a suicide.

    The investigation that followed has publicly unraveled what authorities describe as a dark, twisted tale of perversion in the working-class neighborhoods and piney backwoods of coastal Alabama.

    Eight of Wood’s adult relatives and three family friends have been charged with dozens of felonies in two counties as the alleged members of an incestuous ring that authorities say shared children for group sex...
     
    , @Anon
    From my understanding, in recent times at least, this notion that white southerners are inbred has been largely perpetuated by institutions like Hollywood and the media due to their gatekeepers' tendency to project their own group's characteristics onto others.
    , @anon

    Who came up with the extremely ridiculous myth that incest sex is way more common among White Southerners than it is among any other demographic group on the planet?

    I guarantee cousin fucking is way more common in Somalia and Syria than it is in South Carolina.
     

    The Highland Scots resided in the Carolina's way back in the day, and... well... we're talking about people too stupid to make pants, here, son. They had massive families in the backwoods, were very clan oriented, and cousin fucking was never out of the question before WWII.

    The reputation of the Scots preceded them all the way back to the Revolutionary War, and civilized folk had the same reaction: not their favorite people. The turn-of-the-century immigrant Irish were often worse than the Scots, and that's saying something. They fucked everything.

    Since until relatively recently, like before the steam locomotive, most American's never travelled outside a 20 mile perimeter of their place of birth, so meeting new people was problematic.

    btw, I recall Benjamin Franklin breeched the subject with an Arab he had met casually. Franklin took the "con" side to cousin marriages. The Arab, as recounted by Franklin, asked how often non-related married couples wound up divorcing. Turns out divorces were more frequent with non-cousins marrying, and besides, the Arab pointed out, after a cousin divorce, the assets remain in the clan, rather than being extracted by the woman from another clan.

    Franklin concluded the Arab had won the argument. He didn't become an advocate for cousin marriage, but he understood.

    , @jtgw
    I don't think the stereotype of Southern incest extends to all Southerners, but is focused on Appalachia. HBD chick has provided evidence that inbreeding was indeed more common among the Scots-Irish who settled that region, and that inbreeding and clannishness can be traced back to their ancestors in the Scottish Borders.
    , @JohnnyD
    @Jefferson
    The novel and movie "Deliverance" probably had something to do with it.
    , @Anonymous
    Maybe birth control and abortion discourage cousin marriage too. I suspect this because -in a drunken winter snow-in -I fucked my first cousin and, being as we were fourteen, didn't manage to pull out on time. Sure enough she got pregnant.

    She told her mom and she drove her down to her upscale gyno to have 'it' done. No discussion.

    We are both married (to other people) with kids and good lives. Otherwise what would have happened is scary to contemplate.
    , @SFG
    It's the old Civil War-era prejudice of the North against the South, and the ancient tradition of accusing your enemies of sexual peccadilloes. Hollywood picked it up and ran with it in movies like Deliverance as their sympathies would be obvious, but it goes back further than that. Country people accuse city people of wife swapping and gay sex, city people accuse country people of sex with animals and inbreeding. It's an exaggeration of realities, like most stereotypes--kinkier stuff really does go on in the city, and nobody is going to find a pig to fool around with in New York. There is going to be more inbreeding in rural areas because of the isolation, but of course it's exaggerated for effect.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  4. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @dearieme
    Protestantism, especially in Germany, depended on support from princes, nobles and wealthy burghers. Might such people choose cousin marriages to accumulate property? That might have the opposite incentive structure from the Roman Church which was delighted to have families not accumulating property but leaving it to the church instead.

    So my suspicion is that Protestant churchmen often frowned on cousin marriages but didn't ban them.

    Mind you, what about the Habsburgs? The usual Roman Catholic exemption for anyone important enough?

    I conjecture that there would be a rise in cousin marriages among royalty when the number of German statelets was reduced from Napoleon onwards, because the number of suitable royal marriage candidates decreased. Frinstance Queen Victoria.

    It was always possible to ask for an exemption. Sure, the educated, wealthy, and powerful were more likely to exploit this. But today, they’re just as likely, if not more, to get ridiculous tax exemptions, holes, etc.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  5. Lot says:

    A “background” single digit rate of cousin marriage does not seem particularly harmful, but the harm grows exponentially as the rate rises as eventually the average pair of cousins are already closely related beyond cousin pairs in outbreeding cultures. .

    MENA Muslims also seem to have tribal and subtribal pools that further reduce outbreeding.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  6. I think Steve has commented on this before. Cousin marriage is a way of keeping wealth within families (e.g., your nephew is also your son-in-law). If it’s hard to keep wealth within families, you need more formal means of organizing so as to preserve wealth (e.g., business organizations such as partnerships, limited liability companies and corporations). These forms also enable you to raise capital from outside the family.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Lot
    That doesn't work because the amount of wealth remains unchanged, so the average family's wealth is likewise unchanged.

    People think of the Rothschilds, but they are a special case as the richest family in Europe during their heyday. An average rich family has unrelated peer families and marrying into them does not dilute wealth.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  7. anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    Jane Austen’s Mansfield Park is about cousin marriage among the minor British gentry:

    “…Fanny Price, at age 10, is sent from her family home to live with her uncle and aunt..at the estate… Her cousin Edmund finds her alone one day and helps her…

    …Edmund slowly… comes to realise how important Fanny is to him. He declares his love for her, and they are married…”

    Read More
    • Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist
    Austen's society had the double whammy of primogeniture and coverture (i.e. women giving up their economic power to their husbands), which may have encouraged the landed/wealthy to find ways to keep it all in the family.
    , @Frau Katze
    By the time of the Protestant Reformation the loss of kin groups was likely a fait accompli.

    A few might marry a cousin, but kin groups never returned in the Protestant countries (AFAIK).

    I wonder what will happen as huge numbers of people still in kin group mode move in. There must a lot of them by now in places left France. The Arab world is intensely tribal.

    AFAIK there is zero sign of it reappearing in the native population.

    Civilization would have to break down completely, I'm guessing.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  8. Whiskey says: • Website

    The “Southerners as sister/cousin molesters” stuff came out of New England disdain for Southerners and seems to date before the Civil War. Though it was really turbo-charged during the 1950s when Blacks became not only important Cold War pawns but totems of moral superiority of Puritan GoodWhites against “Redneck” BadWhites.

    You could argue that the War of the Roundheads against Cavaliers has never really ended. Nor will it ever end. It can’t. That BadWhites exist and show a different way of living for White people is nothing less than an existential threat to GoodWhites who rely on complete and total thought conformity. It is not enough for mere compliance on outward matters of obedience. It is far more important to get thoughts in line; that’s a feature not a bug of GoodWhite societies since the Puritans hanged old Quaker ladies for preaching the wrong sort of Gospel. Puritans see themselves as tiny sparks of light always threatened by the darkness.

    Read More
    • Replies: @syonredux
    Mocking low class rednecks has a rich history in the South.Cf William Byrd II's(March 28, 1674 – August 26, 1744) The History of the Dividing Line Betwixt Virginia and North Carolina. In it, he pokes fun at poor Whites in North Carolina. Another early example is Augustus Baldwin Longstreet's Georgia Scenes (1835).


    http://docsouth.unc.edu/nc/byrd/byrd.html


    http://docsouth.unc.edu/southlit/longstreet/georgia.html

    , @Anon
    New England Puritans are more inbred than you think. If you do genealogy, you'll find cousin marriage cropping up more often than you'd expect in colonial times. In the first few generations, you had a small number of settlers who had huge families who were all living in small villages, and this situation limited the potential marriage pool until the population began to increase via new waves of immigrants. I'm willing to bet all old New Englanders have a few cousin marriages in their backgrounds they have no clue about because the average person doesn't do genealogy. I've got several generations of cousin marriages in my own background from around the 1600s and 1700s of the sort that would make your eyeballs fall out and roll around if you looked at my ancestry chart. *Points hard at Nantucket*
    , @whorefinder
    The "Southern redneck inbred" stereotype had some grounding in reality, but no more grounding that any other group's inbreeding of that time.

    The real reason the "Southern inbred" stereotype became so widely propagated to this day was projection by the two actual most inbred groups in this country: Jews and blacks.

    Amongst Jews, the stereotype is that every Ashkenazi is a 3rd cousin to one another is an old Jewish in-joke still prevalent today. As is Jewish urge to cover up sexual abuse scandals in their communities; note how many rabbinical abuse scandals quickly disappear from headlines. In a panic, they tend to project sexual indiscretion/problems onto others. Einstein, famously, had his most intimate relationship with his cousin (before coming to the U.S.).

    The massive inbreeding among blacks is due to their lack of knowledge of who their fathers are, low outgroup breeding, and the general "Big Man" instinct amongst blacks, where the top 10% of local black men breed with all the women and the remaining 90% are left out, leading to now a 5th or 6th generation (post the Great Society programs) of half brothers and sisters mating with one another in the ghetto without either knowing about it. Plus the long-noted lack of aversion by blacks to committing sexual abuse.

    In Invisible Man the narrator is horrified when a black farmer casually mentions having sex with his own daughter, who is now pregnant with his child, while the black farmer is unbothered. Or see how the famous and lauded music video director for The Fugees tried to start an inbred royal line with his own daughters. Or how R. Kelly had sex with his own 14-year-old cousin, and made light of it.

    In short, Jews and blacks have a far higher rate of inbreeding than any other group, but choose to project "inbredness" onto Scots-Irish country folk, whom they both hate.

    , @Whoever
    James M. Cain's The Butterfly, about father-daughter incest in the West Virginia coal country, came out in 1946, and I've often wondered if it's the foundation of all the modern-day dismissal of Appalachian people as inbred losers.
    You'd think that the West Virginia history of resisting slavery and secession (that's why there is a West Virginia), as well as its union organizing and fighting the capitalist oppressor (the Battle of Matewan, for example) would make the hill folk icons of the leftest pantheon instead of objects of derision.
    Or maybe it was Erskine Caldwell's God's Little Acre, published in 1933, about a rutting family of Georgia yokels, that helped form the modern image. Those sorts of books might have been the beginning of the Flight from White.
    , @Dana
    why arent you writing on your blog
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  9. Lot says:
    @dearieme
    Protestantism, especially in Germany, depended on support from princes, nobles and wealthy burghers. Might such people choose cousin marriages to accumulate property? That might have the opposite incentive structure from the Roman Church which was delighted to have families not accumulating property but leaving it to the church instead.

    So my suspicion is that Protestant churchmen often frowned on cousin marriages but didn't ban them.

    Mind you, what about the Habsburgs? The usual Roman Catholic exemption for anyone important enough?

    I conjecture that there would be a rise in cousin marriages among royalty when the number of German statelets was reduced from Napoleon onwards, because the number of suitable royal marriage candidates decreased. Frinstance Queen Victoria.

    The Holy Roman Empire was useful for royal breeding because there were all sorts of small towns that were sovereign states with royal rulers. Title inflation!

    An source of growth of Protestantism was that bishops and abbots could convert, marry their mistress, and declare their bastard their heir to a new duchy covering their territory.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  10. CanRev says:

    As a protestant clergyman I have somewhat of an informed opinion on this subject. I will limit myself to the presbyterian world since that is my own context.

    The ban on consanguineous marriages is universal among the magisterial reformed churches. That is those churches that were reformed under the oversight, or with the assistance of the state.

    In fact the Associate Reformed church still includes the (Anglican) “bands of consanguinity” in their Form of Government. This is a table prepared by the Anglican Divines at the time of the Reformation that shows in exhaustive detail who may marry whom. This chart is based on the OT book of Leviticus and its case law for the Hebrew people.

    Most Modern Presbyterian denominations have dropped this chart, but it is still present in the constitutional documents of several denominations. And without a doubt it was a major part of the Reformed/Presbyterian understanding of christian morality.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey CanRev,

    Thanks for those insights. I hope someone with your background sticks around to provide more commentary on related issues.

    Peace.
    , @Anonymous
    Do you believe in God?
    , @jtgw
    The tables of affinity in the BCP do not include cousins. This is presumably because Leviticus does not forbid cousin marriage. In fact, I don't think it even forbids uncle-niece marriage, though the Anglican Church certainly did. Since the Reformation was about Sola Scriptura, it made sense that they would abandon the very strict rules on consanguineous marriage that the Catholic Church promulgated, which were based in unwritten tradition rather than Scripture.

    I think it's probably true that, despite the Reformation's relaxation of the rules, most northern European Protestants did not take advantage of the relaxation to marry their cousins (just as many southern Europeans ignored the Church's rules before).
    , @dearieme
    Can you comment, Rev, on what WKPD says?

    Early Medieval Europe ... the nobility became too interrelated to marry easily as the local pool of unrelated prospective spouses became smaller; increasingly, large payments to the church were required for exemptions ("dispensations"), or retrospective legitimizations of children, in what amounted to a 'protection racket' by the church. ...

    Protestant churches generally allow cousin marriage, in keeping with criticism of the Catholic system of dispensations by Martin Luther and John Calvin during the Reformation. ... Catholic bans on cousin marriage were an expression of Church rather than divine law and needed to be abolished.
    , @anon

    This chart is based on the OT book of Leviticus and its case law for the Hebrew people.
     
    That's an obvious lie as Jewish law doesn't prohibit cousin or indeed uncle/niece marriage.

    The Protestant churches didn't adopt the Catholic rule but it didn't matter because by that time people had come to accept not marrying close cousins as "normal."

    All it meant was people with a lot of wealth they wanted to maintain in the family could make exceptions to the rule without paying a fine to the Church.

    (A hidden reason for the reformation?)

    #

    inbred southerner thing

    Calling country people inbred is a pretty common urban slur magnified in the US by the media being so ultra-urban.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  11. In the early days of the Massachusetts colony, in some towns, virtually everyone was a cousin so the rules had to be relaxed or there would have been no marriages. Based on my genealogy, it was not until the construction of the railroads that people started to marry outside their immediate community.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  12. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Jefferson
    Who came up with the extremely ridiculous myth that incest sex is way more common among White Southerners than it is among any other demographic group on the planet?

    I guarantee cousin fucking is way more common in Somalia and Syria than it is in South Carolina.

    “Incestuous child group-sex ring uncovered in Alabama”

    https://nypost.com/2014/11/01/incestuous-child-group-sex-ring-uncovered-in-alabama/

    BAY MINETTE, Ala. — By most accounts, 19-year-old Brittney Wood was with uncle Donnie Holland the night of May 30, 2012, the last time anyone saw her. Holland — who was under investigation for horrific sex crimes at the time — died from a bullet within days in what was ruled a suicide.

    The investigation that followed has publicly unraveled what authorities describe as a dark, twisted tale of perversion in the working-class neighborhoods and piney backwoods of coastal Alabama.

    Eight of Wood’s adult relatives and three family friends have been charged with dozens of felonies in two counties as the alleged members of an incestuous ring that authorities say shared children for group sex…

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  13. Lot says:
    @Diversity Heretic
    I think Steve has commented on this before. Cousin marriage is a way of keeping wealth within families (e.g., your nephew is also your son-in-law). If it's hard to keep wealth within families, you need more formal means of organizing so as to preserve wealth (e.g., business organizations such as partnerships, limited liability companies and corporations). These forms also enable you to raise capital from outside the family.

    That doesn’t work because the amount of wealth remains unchanged, so the average family’s wealth is likewise unchanged.

    People think of the Rothschilds, but they are a special case as the richest family in Europe during their heyday. An average rich family has unrelated peer families and marrying into them does not dilute wealth.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Alec Leamas
    Doesn't it work immensely from the perspective of the grandparent with the wealth (and influence) to pass on though? You seem to be assuming a parity of wealth between families when the truth is that there were few wealthy families, so if you couldn't find a match with more wealth you'd mitigate the dissipation of family wealth by matching cousins (rather than having two of your grandchildren marry available paupers).

    Before the discover of heredity and genetics it made sense even if wealthy families kept ending up with hemophiliacs whose bottom teeth grew through their cheeks. (Aside: I wonder if this is how high birth eventually became associated with physical frailty and cowardice?).
    , @Corvinus
    "That doesn’t work because the amount of wealth remains unchanged, so the average family’s wealth is likewise unchanged."

    No. The amount of wealth remains within the family, and is likely to expand as a result of their combined efforts to continue with their financial pursuits or entertain other revenue streams.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  14. Anon says: • Disclaimer

    OK, so this Jonathan F. Schulz has been reading a lot of Sailer, right? Obviously?

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  15. Anon says: • Disclaimer

    Also, what is the deal with the commenting system not letting me post under my usual handle? Is there a way to at least get it to tell me what it thinks my usual handle + email combination is?

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  16. syonredux says:
    @Whiskey
    The "Southerners as sister/cousin molesters" stuff came out of New England disdain for Southerners and seems to date before the Civil War. Though it was really turbo-charged during the 1950s when Blacks became not only important Cold War pawns but totems of moral superiority of Puritan GoodWhites against "Redneck" BadWhites.

    You could argue that the War of the Roundheads against Cavaliers has never really ended. Nor will it ever end. It can't. That BadWhites exist and show a different way of living for White people is nothing less than an existential threat to GoodWhites who rely on complete and total thought conformity. It is not enough for mere compliance on outward matters of obedience. It is far more important to get thoughts in line; that's a feature not a bug of GoodWhite societies since the Puritans hanged old Quaker ladies for preaching the wrong sort of Gospel. Puritans see themselves as tiny sparks of light always threatened by the darkness.

    Mocking low class rednecks has a rich history in the South.Cf William Byrd II’s(March 28, 1674 – August 26, 1744) The History of the Dividing Line Betwixt Virginia and North Carolina. In it, he pokes fun at poor Whites in North Carolina. Another early example is Augustus Baldwin Longstreet’s Georgia Scenes (1835).

    http://docsouth.unc.edu/nc/byrd/byrd.html

    http://docsouth.unc.edu/southlit/longstreet/georgia.html

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  17. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Jefferson
    Who came up with the extremely ridiculous myth that incest sex is way more common among White Southerners than it is among any other demographic group on the planet?

    I guarantee cousin fucking is way more common in Somalia and Syria than it is in South Carolina.

    From my understanding, in recent times at least, this notion that white southerners are inbred has been largely perpetuated by institutions like Hollywood and the media due to their gatekeepers’ tendency to project their own group’s characteristics onto others.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  18. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Whiskey
    The "Southerners as sister/cousin molesters" stuff came out of New England disdain for Southerners and seems to date before the Civil War. Though it was really turbo-charged during the 1950s when Blacks became not only important Cold War pawns but totems of moral superiority of Puritan GoodWhites against "Redneck" BadWhites.

    You could argue that the War of the Roundheads against Cavaliers has never really ended. Nor will it ever end. It can't. That BadWhites exist and show a different way of living for White people is nothing less than an existential threat to GoodWhites who rely on complete and total thought conformity. It is not enough for mere compliance on outward matters of obedience. It is far more important to get thoughts in line; that's a feature not a bug of GoodWhite societies since the Puritans hanged old Quaker ladies for preaching the wrong sort of Gospel. Puritans see themselves as tiny sparks of light always threatened by the darkness.

    New England Puritans are more inbred than you think. If you do genealogy, you’ll find cousin marriage cropping up more often than you’d expect in colonial times. In the first few generations, you had a small number of settlers who had huge families who were all living in small villages, and this situation limited the potential marriage pool until the population began to increase via new waves of immigrants. I’m willing to bet all old New Englanders have a few cousin marriages in their backgrounds they have no clue about because the average person doesn’t do genealogy. I’ve got several generations of cousin marriages in my own background from around the 1600s and 1700s of the sort that would make your eyeballs fall out and roll around if you looked at my ancestry chart. *Points hard at Nantucket*

    Read More
    • Replies: @TelfoedJohn
    Ironically, the playground of the Democrat elite - Martha's Vineyard - has so much inbreeding that there is widespread heritary deafness:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martha%27s_Vineyard_Sign_Language
    , @Foreign Expert
    My mayflower descendant great grandmother's four grandparents were ALL cousins.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  19. Another important factor was the Catholic Church’s enforcement of monogamy for kings. Furthermore, the Church prohibited kings from divorcing their queens.

    This situation terminated some dynasties when a royal couple turned out to be barren.

    This was the major problem of England’s Henry VIII. Only two daughters lived to adulthood. Both of them ruled but failed to give birth to heirs, and so the Tudor dynasty ended.

    These random developments allowed some ruling families to be weeded out, enabling other, more vigorous families to replace them.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Mike Sylwester

    These random developments allowed some ruling families to be weeded out, enabling other, more vigorous families to replace them.
     
    I should have said less in-bred families.
    , @dearieme
    "This was the major problem of England’s Henry VIII. Only two daughters lived to adulthood." Don't overlook the son who became Edward VI. He too died childless.

    Note too that Henry VIII was a good catholic. He didn't divorce his first wife; the marriage was annulled.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  20. I imagine that before the discovery of heredity and genetics, Europeans took some notice of their resident inbreeding tribe and made the appropriate observations and conclusions about repeated cousin marriage.

    Other than this and without regard for the specific and unusual cases of royal families, there is probably some wisdom in encouraging outbreeding to link peoples across Christendom – “catholic” means universal in any event. If you consider the Church the Ur-EU, it makes sense to blend languages and cultures by blending families across the seams of Europe before the emergence of nations.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  21. Anonym says:

    Does ethnocentrism increase as cosanguinity increases? My guess is that it increases clannishness but not necessarily ethnocentrism.

    One other question this raises is Jewishness, cosanguinity and IQ. Stupid google won’t link directly to an article by HBD Chick, but there is an article there on cosanguinity among Jews. Among Ashkenazi it is low, 1.4%, whereas Sephardim have around 9% I think. Maybe that’s part of the IQ difference.

    Read More
    • Replies: @anon

    Does ethnocentrism increase as cosanguinity increases? My guess is that it increases clannishness but not necessarily ethnocentrism.
     
    I think what happens is the "border" of "ethno" changes with levels of consanquinity i.e.
    - ethnocentric about their clan but not tribe
    - ethnocentric about their tribe but not nation
    etc

    One other question this raises is Jewishness, cosanguinity and IQ.
     
    Yes, Ashkenazi adopting the west Euro marriage model to fit in may have removed earlier inbreeding depression.
    , @Frau Katze
    Discussing cousin marriage and its main disadvantages (higher rate of genetic disease, might affect IQ...I'm not sure) is COMPLETELY TABOO.

    It's very bad form to bring it up in comments (considered, guess what, racist. )

    Even this writer might get some pushback. The obvious implication is that most of the non Western world is doomed to remain corrupt. This is not new in HBD circles: HBD Chick has written on it extensively.

    I've never seen a discussion in, say, NYT.
    , @Mark Green
    Incredibly, Einstein married his cousin.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  22. @Lot
    That doesn't work because the amount of wealth remains unchanged, so the average family's wealth is likewise unchanged.

    People think of the Rothschilds, but they are a special case as the richest family in Europe during their heyday. An average rich family has unrelated peer families and marrying into them does not dilute wealth.

    Doesn’t it work immensely from the perspective of the grandparent with the wealth (and influence) to pass on though? You seem to be assuming a parity of wealth between families when the truth is that there were few wealthy families, so if you couldn’t find a match with more wealth you’d mitigate the dissipation of family wealth by matching cousins (rather than having two of your grandchildren marry available paupers).

    Before the discover of heredity and genetics it made sense even if wealthy families kept ending up with hemophiliacs whose bottom teeth grew through their cheeks. (Aside: I wonder if this is how high birth eventually became associated with physical frailty and cowardice?).

    Read More
    • Replies: @anon

    You seem to be assuming a parity of wealth between families when the truth is that there were few wealthy families...
     
    Yes - wealth has the same problem as rural villages - limited number of potential marriage partners.

    To find someone of equal wealth who wasn't a cousin you might have to go far afield and then end up with a landed estate split across multiple counties?

    There may have been an advantage to keeping wealth (land) physically concentrated?

    I wonder if the same applies to herds?

    i.e. a herd of 400 increases faster than one of 100?

    , @anon

    (Aside: I wonder if this is how high birth eventually became associated with physical frailty and cowardice?)
     
    No, that was probably Marxist or socialist propaganda. The upper classes were until recently considered rather more athletic than the lower, owing to diet and exercise, and were often expected to join the army or navy, thus hardly cowards. See Chesterton on this, or anyone else up to the turn of the twentieth century, or really before the War.

    The real weaklings and hemophiliacs cropped up in royal lines, not generic aristocracy.

    Madness is something else; the English upper and middle classes were famously eccentric, but I suspect this to be simply a development of the national culture.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  23. @anonymous
    Jane Austen's Mansfield Park is about cousin marriage among the minor British gentry:


    "...Fanny Price, at age 10, is sent from her family home to live with her uncle and aunt..at the estate... Her cousin Edmund finds her alone one day and helps her...

    ...Edmund slowly... comes to realise how important Fanny is to him. He declares his love for her, and they are married..."

     

    Austen’s society had the double whammy of primogeniture and coverture (i.e. women giving up their economic power to their husbands), which may have encouraged the landed/wealthy to find ways to keep it all in the family.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  24. Talha says:
    @CanRev
    As a protestant clergyman I have somewhat of an informed opinion on this subject. I will limit myself to the presbyterian world since that is my own context.

    The ban on consanguineous marriages is universal among the magisterial reformed churches. That is those churches that were reformed under the oversight, or with the assistance of the state.

    In fact the Associate Reformed church still includes the (Anglican) "bands of consanguinity" in their Form of Government. This is a table prepared by the Anglican Divines at the time of the Reformation that shows in exhaustive detail who may marry whom. This chart is based on the OT book of Leviticus and its case law for the Hebrew people.

    Most Modern Presbyterian denominations have dropped this chart, but it is still present in the constitutional documents of several denominations. And without a doubt it was a major part of the Reformed/Presbyterian understanding of christian morality.

    Hey CanRev,

    Thanks for those insights. I hope someone with your background sticks around to provide more commentary on related issues.

    Peace.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  25. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    Read More
    • Replies: @Chrisnonymous
    Who's rallying?
    , @anon
    Globalist means traitor - not what he thinks it means.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  26. Making marriage to a second, not first, cousin common

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  27. anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Jefferson
    Who came up with the extremely ridiculous myth that incest sex is way more common among White Southerners than it is among any other demographic group on the planet?

    I guarantee cousin fucking is way more common in Somalia and Syria than it is in South Carolina.

    Who came up with the extremely ridiculous myth that incest sex is way more common among White Southerners than it is among any other demographic group on the planet?

    I guarantee cousin fucking is way more common in Somalia and Syria than it is in South Carolina.

    The Highland Scots resided in the Carolina’s way back in the day, and… well… we’re talking about people too stupid to make pants, here, son. They had massive families in the backwoods, were very clan oriented, and cousin fucking was never out of the question before WWII.

    The reputation of the Scots preceded them all the way back to the Revolutionary War, and civilized folk had the same reaction: not their favorite people. The turn-of-the-century immigrant Irish were often worse than the Scots, and that’s saying something. They fucked everything.

    Since until relatively recently, like before the steam locomotive, most American’s never travelled outside a 20 mile perimeter of their place of birth, so meeting new people was problematic.

    btw, I recall Benjamin Franklin breeched the subject with an Arab he had met casually. Franklin took the “con” side to cousin marriages. The Arab, as recounted by Franklin, asked how often non-related married couples wound up divorcing. Turns out divorces were more frequent with non-cousins marrying, and besides, the Arab pointed out, after a cousin divorce, the assets remain in the clan, rather than being extracted by the woman from another clan.

    Franklin concluded the Arab had won the argument. He didn’t become an advocate for cousin marriage, but he understood.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Cat Lady
    Could you please supply a link for that dialogue between Benjamin Franklin and "an Arab he met casually"? Because you don't know the difference between "breech" and "broach."
    , @dc.sunsets
    My clannishness must be the Scott in me. Either that or I'm just too cynical about others, after all Most People Are Idiots (MPAI.)
    , @Jefferson
    "Since until relatively recently, like before the steam locomotive, most American’s never travelled outside a 20 mile perimeter of their place of birth,"

    Even in 2016 at least among the Black welfare underclass in this country, most of them have never traveled very far from the place that they were born.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  28. ggg says: • Website

    a bit OT but incest is one if the most popular topics in erorica, does this mean anything in an hbd sense? I doubt all those people posting and reading those stories are Sicilians, indians, or Arabs.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Chrisnonymous
    Actually, I think Indians writing in English (why?) are better represented in that genre than others. The results often tend toward hilarity rather titilation.

    This issue is actually relevant to hbd as incest-fantasy and cousin marriage are not necessarily related (no pun intended), although they could be. Obviously, cousin marriage is condoned by society while incest-fantasy involves taboos. Why would the two occur together?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  29. Lee Wang says:

    Wow great steal from HBD chick…

    Down to the references to Augustinius.

    Read More
    • Agree: CK, Anatoly Karlin
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  30. Gabriel M says:

    This research advances the hypothesis and empirically demonstrates that the strength of extended kin-groups (as proxied by cousin marriage) is most likely at the core of the large developmental differences in institutional quality and democracy across countries

    Yeah, it’s not like the “core factor” could be that median IQ in Nigeria is functionally retarded by western standards.

    So much Sociology is like a bad detective drama, it’s never the five times convicted burglar who murdered that guy, no, it’s the happily married CEO.

    Read More
    • Replies: @anon
    The IQ ~ GDP per capita correlation isn't 100%.

    (e.g. Scandi seems to do better then it should from the IQ estimates iirc)

    I'd say multiplying average IQ with some kind of corruption/cooperation index is likely to explain a lot of the anomalies

    and this factor may partly explain higher cooperation / lower corruption.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  31. “the disappearance of extended kin-groups in Europe is one of the central preconditions for the development of public law and the political state”

    I read this and thought “I wonder if cousin marriage is common among travelling folk?”

    “Almost two in every five Irish Traveller marriages are between cousins”

    “The ideal marriage of the Roma is to marry a second cousin from the same vitsa because then the coparents-in-law (Xanamik) will be aunt or uncle to nephew or niece”

    And in line with that data, Roma bad-boys in the UK, while pretty antisocial (pickpocketing and snatches at cash machines etc), don’t go in for outrageous scofflaw stuff so much as Irish travellers do. First cousin marriage is apparently illegal in Romania.

    “Car boot sale row erupts into violence as ‘traveller families clash’”

    Read More
    • Replies: @blah blah blah blah
    I found to my surprise that in Murphy Village, SC (outside Augusta, GA) there's an Irish Traveller community. I found--not to my surprise--that a bunch of them were just busted by the FBI for scheming: http://www.thestate.com/news/local/crime/article96051242.html
    , @anon
    Yes, if you've had dealings with gypsies/travellers the stuff about Arab cousin marriage immediately rings a bell.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  32. Anonym says:

    I like the graph on this page wrt Italy, North and South:

    http://www.citymetric.com/business/italys-north-south-divide-one-chart-361

    Seems That Naples and Palermo have a very similar levels of… oh wait, that is Mafia Index. Maybe it’s just the gangsters holding the modern Archimedeses down.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  33. Lot says:

    East Germany, despite huge transfers from the West, remains much poorer than the West, as well as poorer than Slovakia.

    https://piie.com/blogs/realtime-economic-issues-watch/europes-household-survey-german-wealth-really-modest

    Read More
    • Replies: @anonguy

    East Germany, despite huge transfers from the West, remains much poorer than the West, as well as poorer than Slovakia.
     
    One of the most incredible achievements of the commies was that they were able to make Germans poor.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  34. @Anonymous Nephew
    "the disappearance of extended kin-groups in Europe is one of the central preconditions for the development of public law and the political state"

    I read this and thought "I wonder if cousin marriage is common among travelling folk?"

    "Almost two in every five Irish Traveller marriages are between cousins"

    "The ideal marriage of the Roma is to marry a second cousin from the same vitsa because then the coparents-in-law (Xanamik) will be aunt or uncle to nephew or niece"

    And in line with that data, Roma bad-boys in the UK, while pretty antisocial (pickpocketing and snatches at cash machines etc), don't go in for outrageous scofflaw stuff so much as Irish travellers do. First cousin marriage is apparently illegal in Romania.

    "Car boot sale row erupts into violence as 'traveller families clash'"

    I found to my surprise that in Murphy Village, SC (outside Augusta, GA) there’s an Irish Traveller community. I found–not to my surprise–that a bunch of them were just busted by the FBI for scheming: http://www.thestate.com/news/local/crime/article96051242.html

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous Nephew
    They were always trouble in Ireland , but since Eire made it a criminal offence "to enter and occupy land" in 2002, many of them have left to find easier marks elsewhere. Tarmacing drives poorly and overpriced building works are favourite scams, and elderly and vulnerable householders favourite victims.

    Irish law now also allows the use of force against trespassers who put a person in fear, after a high-profile case where a farmer shot an intruder and was cleared at a retrial. (In a similar UK case where the intruder was inside the house, farmer Tony Martin was convicted and sentenced).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_John_Ward

    "Ward was a 43-year-old traveller with approximately 80 convictions from 38 separate court appearances and had convictions for burglary, larceny and assault."

    , @Daniel H
    They run a lot of the rinky-dink old fashioned carnivals that you still see out in the old weird America.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  35. Lars says:

    It would have been nice to see references to Steve Sailer and HBD Chick in the paper.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Desiderius

    It would have been nice to see references to Steve Sailer and HBD Chick in the paper.
     
    Nice guys don't make it to Yale.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfcW7yYFhqk

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  36. grmbl says:

    Can’t remember where I read it, but I seem to remember a piece about how extremely inbred highland gorillas are, yet they suffer a low rate of birth defects.

    Would that be because their populations have dwindled only recently and deleterious effects have not yet had time to set in?

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  37. If Yale faculty are allowed to read alt-right-influenced sources, the fellow should read HBDChick, who has explored this and related topics in considerable detail.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  38. SPMoore8 says:

    26 US states and all European countries allow first cousin marriage, so it is easy to infer that the practice is not that unusual. (Anything farther out than first cousin marriage is barely on the radar.)

    My own genealogical research indicates that it is also not uncommon among Americans historically, in upper middle, middle, and lower social classes (cousin intermarriage among European royalty extends that to all social classes.) None in my direct line, thank you so much.

    TBH the only problem I can see with it is possible genetic blowback, but now we’re talking about diseases from inbreeding, ranging from hemophilia to Tay-Sachs and similar type things. But the people who carry those diseases are hardly dummies. I think the notion of inbreeding being associated with sub-optimal intelligence is way overrated. (I recall the Jewish guy who wrote the poem about UVA also referenced this “inbreeding” notion = stupid in his ca. 1940 poem.)

    Of course all of these limitations were established by custom long before modern genetics, which is after all only about a century old. I myself would not recommend cousin marriage for breeding purposes, but then there’s more to marriage than having kids: just ask any LGBTQQIAA couple (I know, I’m leaving off half a dozen letters, I’m old and it’s hard to learn new ones.)

    The only positive non-genetic association with out-marriage I can see is that it tends to weaken political interests defined by families versus the nation state, and as Steve predicted (and we know historically) such tight family formations have tended to retard national growth, not only in MENA but in parts of Europe. On the other hand, we still have phenomena like the Kennedy, Clinton and Bush “families” who somehow manage to remain intact and powerful even without cousin marriage.

    I think a certain measure of out-marriage makes for a more robust specimen; I know that everyone here harps on IQ but there are many other desirable traits, including body shape, height, health, disease resistance, strength, stamina, character, resolve, etc. etc. Basically, I’d trade 20 IQ points any day of the week if good health, focused character, and a long life (80-90) were on the table. Who wouldn’t?

    Read More
    • Replies: @27 year old
    >I’d trade 20 IQ points any day of the week if good health, focused character, and a long life (80-90) were on the table. Who wouldn’t?

    People who don't have 20 to spare
    , @anon

    26 US states and all European countries allow first cousin marriage, so it is easy to infer that the practice is not that unusual.
     
    for n hundred years it was unusual

    and by the time it wasn't (and possibly as a result) the populations were much larger and more urbanized so inbreeding was less of an issue
    , @Venator
    "Basically, I’d trade 20 IQ points any day of the week if good health, focused character, and a long life (80-90) were on the table. Who wouldn’t?"

    I'd be an idiot to do/if I did that.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  39. @Mike Sylwester
    Another important factor was the Catholic Church's enforcement of monogamy for kings. Furthermore, the Church prohibited kings from divorcing their queens.

    This situation terminated some dynasties when a royal couple turned out to be barren.

    This was the major problem of England's Henry VIII. Only two daughters lived to adulthood. Both of them ruled but failed to give birth to heirs, and so the Tudor dynasty ended.

    These random developments allowed some ruling families to be weeded out, enabling other, more vigorous families to replace them.

    These random developments allowed some ruling families to be weeded out, enabling other, more vigorous families to replace them.

    I should have said less in-bred families.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  40. @dearieme
    Protestantism, especially in Germany, depended on support from princes, nobles and wealthy burghers. Might such people choose cousin marriages to accumulate property? That might have the opposite incentive structure from the Roman Church which was delighted to have families not accumulating property but leaving it to the church instead.

    So my suspicion is that Protestant churchmen often frowned on cousin marriages but didn't ban them.

    Mind you, what about the Habsburgs? The usual Roman Catholic exemption for anyone important enough?

    I conjecture that there would be a rise in cousin marriages among royalty when the number of German statelets was reduced from Napoleon onwards, because the number of suitable royal marriage candidates decreased. Frinstance Queen Victoria.

    There are a lot of cousin marriages within the Jewish population especially among the Hasidic Jews. Some be because of low population to choose from within, but I believe much of is an attempt to keep wealth in the family.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  41. Democracy in the contemporary era seems very recent. Western Europe was democratic during the XIX or earlier?? I don’t think so.

    Western Europeans since a long time has been open to “en masse–immigration experiment/experience” ?? Most of them are in this days?? They has been open to the lgbt issues since a long time?? They has been individualistic as they are today?? Less religious??

    NO.

    Only since 60′s aka “cultural revolution” they started to be more “open-minded”.

    I no doubt different cousin marriage rates is likely to have different results in many behaviorally relevant stuff but I believe SOME people are using this hypothesis to explain everything about current suicidal “western behavior”.

    There are (((other))) issues who are fundamental to explain the big and whole picture and it can’t be forget.

    Western Europeans, long time without cousin marriage higher rates, has behaved just like most of the other groups. Lack of cousin marriages Don’t prevent them to massacre themselves during two big worldwide conflicts, for example.

    Interestingly and obvious to perceive no other culture has changed so much and many times like “western culture”. We have chronologically encapsulated generations living in the same house.

    Read More
    • Replies: @oddsbodkins
    You miss the point. The thesis is that the ban on cousin marriage and consequent weakening of clans is what allowed for the rise of the modern nation states in west Europe. Those states then (sometimes) become democratic. The immense scale of the world wars is not an indication of clannish behaviour, but the lack of it.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  42. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @CanRev
    As a protestant clergyman I have somewhat of an informed opinion on this subject. I will limit myself to the presbyterian world since that is my own context.

    The ban on consanguineous marriages is universal among the magisterial reformed churches. That is those churches that were reformed under the oversight, or with the assistance of the state.

    In fact the Associate Reformed church still includes the (Anglican) "bands of consanguinity" in their Form of Government. This is a table prepared by the Anglican Divines at the time of the Reformation that shows in exhaustive detail who may marry whom. This chart is based on the OT book of Leviticus and its case law for the Hebrew people.

    Most Modern Presbyterian denominations have dropped this chart, but it is still present in the constitutional documents of several denominations. And without a doubt it was a major part of the Reformed/Presbyterian understanding of christian morality.

    Do you believe in God?

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  43. jtgw says:
    @CanRev
    As a protestant clergyman I have somewhat of an informed opinion on this subject. I will limit myself to the presbyterian world since that is my own context.

    The ban on consanguineous marriages is universal among the magisterial reformed churches. That is those churches that were reformed under the oversight, or with the assistance of the state.

    In fact the Associate Reformed church still includes the (Anglican) "bands of consanguinity" in their Form of Government. This is a table prepared by the Anglican Divines at the time of the Reformation that shows in exhaustive detail who may marry whom. This chart is based on the OT book of Leviticus and its case law for the Hebrew people.

    Most Modern Presbyterian denominations have dropped this chart, but it is still present in the constitutional documents of several denominations. And without a doubt it was a major part of the Reformed/Presbyterian understanding of christian morality.

    The tables of affinity in the BCP do not include cousins. This is presumably because Leviticus does not forbid cousin marriage. In fact, I don’t think it even forbids uncle-niece marriage, though the Anglican Church certainly did. Since the Reformation was about Sola Scriptura, it made sense that they would abandon the very strict rules on consanguineous marriage that the Catholic Church promulgated, which were based in unwritten tradition rather than Scripture.

    I think it’s probably true that, despite the Reformation’s relaxation of the rules, most northern European Protestants did not take advantage of the relaxation to marry their cousins (just as many southern Europeans ignored the Church’s rules before).

    Read More
    • Replies: @CanRev
    My only point was to remind us that marriages outside the bounds of consanguinity were still an issue among protestants.

    As has been pointed out this ban does not extend to cousins. However, the protestant understanding of "acceptable" marriages has *more or less* followed the charts set out by our Anglican forefathers.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  44. Thea says:

    Werner Von Braun married a first cousin as well

    Read More
    • Replies: @dearieme
    Married a first cousin? Clearly he was no rocket scientist.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  45. jtgw says:
    @Jefferson
    Who came up with the extremely ridiculous myth that incest sex is way more common among White Southerners than it is among any other demographic group on the planet?

    I guarantee cousin fucking is way more common in Somalia and Syria than it is in South Carolina.

    I don’t think the stereotype of Southern incest extends to all Southerners, but is focused on Appalachia. HBD chick has provided evidence that inbreeding was indeed more common among the Scots-Irish who settled that region, and that inbreeding and clannishness can be traced back to their ancestors in the Scottish Borders.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  46. Maz says:

    On the other hand, Protestantism wasn’t always against cousin marriage: e.g., Charles Darwin married his Wedgwood first cousin. But I don’t know how common this was.

    Not very common. George Darwin, one of Chuck’s sons, published a study of first-cousin marriages in 19th century England and found the following prevalences:

    London 1.5%
    Other urban districts 2%
    Rural districts 2.25%
    Middle class and Landed Gentry 3.5%
    Aristocracy 4.5%

    (source)

    Scandinavia/Norden, which is historically the most Protestant area of Europe, has had little cousin marriage. For example, here’s some data from Finland:

    We have compiled data on the frequency of first-cousin marriages in Finland using royal dispensation records for the time period 1810–1872 and national population statistics for the time period 1878–1920. For the earlier period, 0.315% of Finland’s marriages were contracted between first cousins (2,331 of 739,387). During the second time period, 0.174% of Finland’s marriages took place between first cousins (1,325 of 761,976).

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  47. Arclight says:

    The left’s fetish for multiculturalism runs so deep that on the one hand they deride rural whites for alleged incest, low levels of education, and religious fundamentalism and on the other hand insist the country welcome people from regions of the planet where there is actual incest on a wide scale, whose residents have grade school level education and whose religion is the most antithetical to progressive beliefs by a long shot. If only the MENAs that we are supposed to have the welcome mat out for were as educated and progressive as the Deplorables.

    Read More
    • Replies: @PapayaSF
    It all makes sense if you see the left as essentially being anti-European/Christian civilization.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  48. @Anonymous
    https://twitter.com/BillKristol/status/807981574222479360

    Who’s rallying?

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  49. TG says:

    Interesting. But here is another possible (only POSSIBLE, mind) angle.

    It is an iron law of development that no country without an open frontier becomes rich until AFTER fertility rates have fallen. That’s because societies where people have zillions of kids early without worrying if they can support them, are inevitably capital-starved, and thus poor, unable to invest in new technologies, and corrupt.

    My question is: are societies with high rates of cousin marriages likely to have higher fertility rates? That’s certainly true in much of the islamic world today. Women are treated as slaves, they cannot go out and seek their own mates, so they have to be set up by their male relatives, and hence cousin marriages are common – probably because it’s just convenient. This is part of a system where women are encouraged/forced to breed like cattle, and that always results in grinding poverty and society-wide stagnation etc..

    Just a thought.

    Read More
    • Replies: @oddsbodkins
    You are a father, and you control your daughter's fertility. You don't just give that to anybody. You give it to someone you trust- your sibling's children.

    The sociologist Robin Fox has thought a lot about this and its consequences.
    , @PapayaSF
    Cousin marriage in the Islamic world is sanctioned by the life of Muhammad. He was the "perfect man," he did it, and so to Muslims, it's a good thing. It has had devastating genetic effects:

    http://pickeringpost.com/story/the-cost-of-islamic-incest/1316

    (Warning: the picture there is rather disturbing.)
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  50. @ggg
    a bit OT but incest is one if the most popular topics in erorica, does this mean anything in an hbd sense? I doubt all those people posting and reading those stories are Sicilians, indians, or Arabs.

    Actually, I think Indians writing in English (why?) are better represented in that genre than others. The results often tend toward hilarity rather titilation.

    This issue is actually relevant to hbd as incest-fantasy and cousin marriage are not necessarily related (no pun intended), although they could be. Obviously, cousin marriage is condoned by society while incest-fantasy involves taboos. Why would the two occur together?

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  51. dearieme says:
    @Mike Sylwester
    Another important factor was the Catholic Church's enforcement of monogamy for kings. Furthermore, the Church prohibited kings from divorcing their queens.

    This situation terminated some dynasties when a royal couple turned out to be barren.

    This was the major problem of England's Henry VIII. Only two daughters lived to adulthood. Both of them ruled but failed to give birth to heirs, and so the Tudor dynasty ended.

    These random developments allowed some ruling families to be weeded out, enabling other, more vigorous families to replace them.

    “This was the major problem of England’s Henry VIII. Only two daughters lived to adulthood.” Don’t overlook the son who became Edward VI. He too died childless.

    Note too that Henry VIII was a good catholic. He didn’t divorce his first wife; the marriage was annulled.

    Read More
    • Replies: @whorefinder

    Note too that Henry VIII was a good catholic. He didn’t divorce his first wife; the marriage was annulled.
     
    Um, what? The Pope refused to annul the marriage. That was the prime cause for Henry breaking England off from the Catholic Church.
    , @anon
    Normally I wouldn't mention this sort of thing, but it makes a difference in this case. "Catholic" refers to the RCC; "catholic" means universal or wide-ranging. Ex. "He had a catholic taste in furniture" meaning not that he festooned his house with prie-dieux, but that he liked all sorts of things, perhaps from Modernist to Louis XIV.

    If your opinion is that King Henry was a good Catholic you must be an Anglican! Though I suppose he was catholic, certainly so in his choice of people to kill.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  52. dearieme says:
    @CanRev
    As a protestant clergyman I have somewhat of an informed opinion on this subject. I will limit myself to the presbyterian world since that is my own context.

    The ban on consanguineous marriages is universal among the magisterial reformed churches. That is those churches that were reformed under the oversight, or with the assistance of the state.

    In fact the Associate Reformed church still includes the (Anglican) "bands of consanguinity" in their Form of Government. This is a table prepared by the Anglican Divines at the time of the Reformation that shows in exhaustive detail who may marry whom. This chart is based on the OT book of Leviticus and its case law for the Hebrew people.

    Most Modern Presbyterian denominations have dropped this chart, but it is still present in the constitutional documents of several denominations. And without a doubt it was a major part of the Reformed/Presbyterian understanding of christian morality.

    Can you comment, Rev, on what WKPD says?

    Early Medieval Europe … the nobility became too interrelated to marry easily as the local pool of unrelated prospective spouses became smaller; increasingly, large payments to the church were required for exemptions (“dispensations”), or retrospective legitimizations of children, in what amounted to a ‘protection racket’ by the church. …

    Protestant churches generally allow cousin marriage, in keeping with criticism of the Catholic system of dispensations by Martin Luther and John Calvin during the Reformation. … Catholic bans on cousin marriage were an expression of Church rather than divine law and needed to be abolished.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  53. Corvinus says:
    @Lot
    That doesn't work because the amount of wealth remains unchanged, so the average family's wealth is likewise unchanged.

    People think of the Rothschilds, but they are a special case as the richest family in Europe during their heyday. An average rich family has unrelated peer families and marrying into them does not dilute wealth.

    “That doesn’t work because the amount of wealth remains unchanged, so the average family’s wealth is likewise unchanged.”

    No. The amount of wealth remains within the family, and is likely to expand as a result of their combined efforts to continue with their financial pursuits or entertain other revenue streams.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Ed
    Such as the Rothschilds, whose members didn't start marrying outside of the family in appreciable numbers until 4 generations after the founder. The only cousin in 3rd generation that did marry outside family was promptly cutoff with only a few relations attending the wedding. It's not like she ran off with some loser either, he was a high ranking British officer.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  54. JohnnyD says:
    @Jefferson
    Who came up with the extremely ridiculous myth that incest sex is way more common among White Southerners than it is among any other demographic group on the planet?

    I guarantee cousin fucking is way more common in Somalia and Syria than it is in South Carolina.


    The novel and movie “Deliverance” probably had something to do with it.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  55. OT: Seoul Brother #1 Jay Caspian Kang on the unbearable whiteness of journalism.

    After Ferguson, I remember being in meetings for the web team at The New Yorker where it became painfully obvious to everyone in the room that we simply did not have a writer to tackle the massive change that was happening in the country.

    Back then, me and one of the only other minorities on the 20th floor of the old Conde Nast building would have to routinely schedule lunches just so we could vent about the totemic whiteness of the place we had dreamt of working our entire lives.

    This same media has sprayed its panicked guts all over the walls in the weeks following the election, but it will eventually settle down into what these prestige journalistic outlets have always been — center-right, bourgeois takes read by lawyers on planes.

    https://medium.com/kang-blog/an-open-letter-to-fellow-minority-journalists-2ccf3f1bbfeb

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  56. Looks like it’s becoming fashionable for economists to “borrow” hbd*chick ideas… without attribution.

    Here’s another example from less than a month ago:

    Read More
    • Replies: @dc.sunsets
    Not citing HBD chick is a side effect of the fact that only pseudonymous people are willing to aggregate such CrimeThink in one place. It seems that no one wants to cite a pseudonymous blog yet.

    Emphasis on YET.

    Both hbd chick and jayman seem to be the only people willing to aggregate the bits and pieces of data supporting hbd.

    Let's face it, any social or biological scientist who did so would be lucky to survive with a job as custodian, cleaning up the puke in dorm hallways on Sunday mornings.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  57. Cat Lady says:
    @anon

    Who came up with the extremely ridiculous myth that incest sex is way more common among White Southerners than it is among any other demographic group on the planet?

    I guarantee cousin fucking is way more common in Somalia and Syria than it is in South Carolina.
     

    The Highland Scots resided in the Carolina's way back in the day, and... well... we're talking about people too stupid to make pants, here, son. They had massive families in the backwoods, were very clan oriented, and cousin fucking was never out of the question before WWII.

    The reputation of the Scots preceded them all the way back to the Revolutionary War, and civilized folk had the same reaction: not their favorite people. The turn-of-the-century immigrant Irish were often worse than the Scots, and that's saying something. They fucked everything.

    Since until relatively recently, like before the steam locomotive, most American's never travelled outside a 20 mile perimeter of their place of birth, so meeting new people was problematic.

    btw, I recall Benjamin Franklin breeched the subject with an Arab he had met casually. Franklin took the "con" side to cousin marriages. The Arab, as recounted by Franklin, asked how often non-related married couples wound up divorcing. Turns out divorces were more frequent with non-cousins marrying, and besides, the Arab pointed out, after a cousin divorce, the assets remain in the clan, rather than being extracted by the woman from another clan.

    Franklin concluded the Arab had won the argument. He didn't become an advocate for cousin marriage, but he understood.

    Could you please supply a link for that dialogue between Benjamin Franklin and “an Arab he met casually”? Because you don’t know the difference between “breech” and “broach.”

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  58. You can only marry someone you meet. And for most of history that meant someone within a day’s ride, which disproportionaly meant a cousin.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  59. anonguy says:
    @Lot
    East Germany, despite huge transfers from the West, remains much poorer than the West, as well as poorer than Slovakia.

    https://piie.com/blogs/realtime-economic-issues-watch/europes-household-survey-german-wealth-really-modest

    East Germany, despite huge transfers from the West, remains much poorer than the West, as well as poorer than Slovakia.

    One of the most incredible achievements of the commies was that they were able to make Germans poor.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  60. Ed says:

    Cousin marriage is taboo in much of West Africa, predating Christian contact, doesn’t seem to have helped them much.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Platemus

    Cousin marriage is taboo in much of West Africa, predating Christian contact, doesn’t seem to have helped them much.
     
    Because they can't impregnate their cousins unless they marry them, and having sex outside of marriage is taboo in much of West Africa?

    Just trying to follow your logic, here.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  61. Ed says:
    @Corvinus
    "That doesn’t work because the amount of wealth remains unchanged, so the average family’s wealth is likewise unchanged."

    No. The amount of wealth remains within the family, and is likely to expand as a result of their combined efforts to continue with their financial pursuits or entertain other revenue streams.

    Such as the Rothschilds, whose members didn’t start marrying outside of the family in appreciable numbers until 4 generations after the founder. The only cousin in 3rd generation that did marry outside family was promptly cutoff with only a few relations attending the wedding. It’s not like she ran off with some loser either, he was a high ranking British officer.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  62. @blah blah blah blah
    I found to my surprise that in Murphy Village, SC (outside Augusta, GA) there's an Irish Traveller community. I found--not to my surprise--that a bunch of them were just busted by the FBI for scheming: http://www.thestate.com/news/local/crime/article96051242.html

    They were always trouble in Ireland , but since Eire made it a criminal offence “to enter and occupy land” in 2002, many of them have left to find easier marks elsewhere. Tarmacing drives poorly and overpriced building works are favourite scams, and elderly and vulnerable householders favourite victims.

    Irish law now also allows the use of force against trespassers who put a person in fear, after a high-profile case where a farmer shot an intruder and was cleared at a retrial. (In a similar UK case where the intruder was inside the house, farmer Tony Martin was convicted and sentenced).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_John_Ward

    “Ward was a 43-year-old traveller with approximately 80 convictions from 38 separate court appearances and had convictions for burglary, larceny and assault.”

    Read More
    • Replies: @dearieme
    Good for the Republic. About time the rest of the British Isles copied them.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  63. Cousin marriages keep the wealth in the family. Non-cousin marriages spread the wealth into the community. This is an early form of income distribution.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  64. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Jefferson
    Who came up with the extremely ridiculous myth that incest sex is way more common among White Southerners than it is among any other demographic group on the planet?

    I guarantee cousin fucking is way more common in Somalia and Syria than it is in South Carolina.

    Maybe birth control and abortion discourage cousin marriage too. I suspect this because -in a drunken winter snow-in -I fucked my first cousin and, being as we were fourteen, didn’t manage to pull out on time. Sure enough she got pregnant.

    She told her mom and she drove her down to her upscale gyno to have ‘it’ done. No discussion.

    We are both married (to other people) with kids and good lives. Otherwise what would have happened is scary to contemplate.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  65. I’m mostly new to the subject of cousin marriages, but I wonder whether the studies on the phenomenon that relate cousin marriage to cognitive functioning generally take into account the effects of such marriages over many generations, and in particular whether, where such marriages are relatively common, there isn’t a larger issue of very restricted within group mating. First cousin marriage generally contributes 1/16 to the inbreeding coefficient, but the pre-existing inbreeding coefficients of the partners may already be so high to tip the new inbreeding coefficient into damaging or risky regions. How much research has there been, I wonder, comparing measured (does this require genomic analysis or extended ancestry info?) or estimated inbreeding coefficient with cognitive functioning?

    Somewhat paradoxically, though, it may be that we owe much of our humanity to substantial inbreeding, at least as it is found in our ancestral hunter-gatherer troops. I happened recently to have read James Crow’s introductory book on population genetics. He brings up the fact that in these groups the fraction of genes they share would appear, on the evidence, to be about .13 — basically the same as in similar troops of other primates. This may not appear to be much, but it is enough so that, building on Haldane’s famous observation, an individual would be willing to sacrifice himself for 8 of his fellow troopers. That’s certainly a non-trivial amount of altruism. Although Crow doesn’t make this particular point, it may have been enough to push our ancestors into cooperative behaviors that have an initial hump of apparent self-sacrifice required before it pays off (“I am Spartacus” is a lot harder to justify saying if you’re the among first, and a lot easier if you’re later in the game).

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  66. Luke Lea says:

    Did Protestants continue the Catholic ban on cousin marriage?

    I dunno, but it should be pointed out that once European central states had been established with their concepts of the rule of law and the rights of the individual, the motive to form large extended families, i.e., clans, and tribalism generally, would have been much reduced. Hence one would not expect a return to previous customs.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  67. @SPMoore8
    26 US states and all European countries allow first cousin marriage, so it is easy to infer that the practice is not that unusual. (Anything farther out than first cousin marriage is barely on the radar.)

    My own genealogical research indicates that it is also not uncommon among Americans historically, in upper middle, middle, and lower social classes (cousin intermarriage among European royalty extends that to all social classes.) None in my direct line, thank you so much.

    TBH the only problem I can see with it is possible genetic blowback, but now we're talking about diseases from inbreeding, ranging from hemophilia to Tay-Sachs and similar type things. But the people who carry those diseases are hardly dummies. I think the notion of inbreeding being associated with sub-optimal intelligence is way overrated. (I recall the Jewish guy who wrote the poem about UVA also referenced this "inbreeding" notion = stupid in his ca. 1940 poem.)

    Of course all of these limitations were established by custom long before modern genetics, which is after all only about a century old. I myself would not recommend cousin marriage for breeding purposes, but then there's more to marriage than having kids: just ask any LGBTQQIAA couple (I know, I'm leaving off half a dozen letters, I'm old and it's hard to learn new ones.)

    The only positive non-genetic association with out-marriage I can see is that it tends to weaken political interests defined by families versus the nation state, and as Steve predicted (and we know historically) such tight family formations have tended to retard national growth, not only in MENA but in parts of Europe. On the other hand, we still have phenomena like the Kennedy, Clinton and Bush "families" who somehow manage to remain intact and powerful even without cousin marriage.

    I think a certain measure of out-marriage makes for a more robust specimen; I know that everyone here harps on IQ but there are many other desirable traits, including body shape, height, health, disease resistance, strength, stamina, character, resolve, etc. etc. Basically, I'd trade 20 IQ points any day of the week if good health, focused character, and a long life (80-90) were on the table. Who wouldn't?

    >I’d trade 20 IQ points any day of the week if good health, focused character, and a long life (80-90) were on the table. Who wouldn’t?

    People who don’t have 20 to spare

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  68. whorefinder says: • Website
    @Whiskey
    The "Southerners as sister/cousin molesters" stuff came out of New England disdain for Southerners and seems to date before the Civil War. Though it was really turbo-charged during the 1950s when Blacks became not only important Cold War pawns but totems of moral superiority of Puritan GoodWhites against "Redneck" BadWhites.

    You could argue that the War of the Roundheads against Cavaliers has never really ended. Nor will it ever end. It can't. That BadWhites exist and show a different way of living for White people is nothing less than an existential threat to GoodWhites who rely on complete and total thought conformity. It is not enough for mere compliance on outward matters of obedience. It is far more important to get thoughts in line; that's a feature not a bug of GoodWhite societies since the Puritans hanged old Quaker ladies for preaching the wrong sort of Gospel. Puritans see themselves as tiny sparks of light always threatened by the darkness.

    The “Southern redneck inbred” stereotype had some grounding in reality, but no more grounding that any other group’s inbreeding of that time.

    The real reason the “Southern inbred” stereotype became so widely propagated to this day was projection by the two actual most inbred groups in this country: Jews and blacks.

    Amongst Jews, the stereotype is that every Ashkenazi is a 3rd cousin to one another is an old Jewish in-joke still prevalent today. As is Jewish urge to cover up sexual abuse scandals in their communities; note how many rabbinical abuse scandals quickly disappear from headlines. In a panic, they tend to project sexual indiscretion/problems onto others. Einstein, famously, had his most intimate relationship with his cousin (before coming to the U.S.).

    The massive inbreeding among blacks is due to their lack of knowledge of who their fathers are, low outgroup breeding, and the general “Big Man” instinct amongst blacks, where the top 10% of local black men breed with all the women and the remaining 90% are left out, leading to now a 5th or 6th generation (post the Great Society programs) of half brothers and sisters mating with one another in the ghetto without either knowing about it. Plus the long-noted lack of aversion by blacks to committing sexual abuse.

    In Invisible Man the narrator is horrified when a black farmer casually mentions having sex with his own daughter, who is now pregnant with his child, while the black farmer is unbothered. Or see how the famous and lauded music video director for The Fugees tried to start an inbred royal line with his own daughters. Or how R. Kelly had sex with his own 14-year-old cousin, and made light of it.

    In short, Jews and blacks have a far higher rate of inbreeding than any other group, but choose to project “inbredness” onto Scots-Irish country folk, whom they both hate.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  69. anon says: • Disclaimer

    So, by hand-raise, how many Steve readers have at least had sex with their cousins?

    How did it happen, where did it lead?

    If you haven’t, did you, at least, try?

    Full disclosure: I have many female cousins, but I have not.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  70. anon says: • Disclaimer
    @CanRev
    As a protestant clergyman I have somewhat of an informed opinion on this subject. I will limit myself to the presbyterian world since that is my own context.

    The ban on consanguineous marriages is universal among the magisterial reformed churches. That is those churches that were reformed under the oversight, or with the assistance of the state.

    In fact the Associate Reformed church still includes the (Anglican) "bands of consanguinity" in their Form of Government. This is a table prepared by the Anglican Divines at the time of the Reformation that shows in exhaustive detail who may marry whom. This chart is based on the OT book of Leviticus and its case law for the Hebrew people.

    Most Modern Presbyterian denominations have dropped this chart, but it is still present in the constitutional documents of several denominations. And without a doubt it was a major part of the Reformed/Presbyterian understanding of christian morality.

    This chart is based on the OT book of Leviticus and its case law for the Hebrew people.

    That’s an obvious lie as Jewish law doesn’t prohibit cousin or indeed uncle/niece marriage.

    The Protestant churches didn’t adopt the Catholic rule but it didn’t matter because by that time people had come to accept not marrying close cousins as “normal.”

    All it meant was people with a lot of wealth they wanted to maintain in the family could make exceptions to the rule without paying a fine to the Church.

    (A hidden reason for the reformation?)

    #

    inbred southerner thing

    Calling country people inbred is a pretty common urban slur magnified in the US by the media being so ultra-urban.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  71. pyrrhus says:

    Yale academic finally catches up to hbd chick, JayMan, and the whole crew of HBD deplorables……..Amazing!

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  72. dearieme says:
    @Thea
    Werner Von Braun married a first cousin as well

    Married a first cousin? Clearly he was no rocket scientist.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  73. dearieme says:
    @Anonymous Nephew
    They were always trouble in Ireland , but since Eire made it a criminal offence "to enter and occupy land" in 2002, many of them have left to find easier marks elsewhere. Tarmacing drives poorly and overpriced building works are favourite scams, and elderly and vulnerable householders favourite victims.

    Irish law now also allows the use of force against trespassers who put a person in fear, after a high-profile case where a farmer shot an intruder and was cleared at a retrial. (In a similar UK case where the intruder was inside the house, farmer Tony Martin was convicted and sentenced).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_John_Ward

    "Ward was a 43-year-old traveller with approximately 80 convictions from 38 separate court appearances and had convictions for burglary, larceny and assault."

    Good for the Republic. About time the rest of the British Isles copied them.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  74. akmed says:

    Let us welcome the voice of Hadhrat Khalifa tul Masih IV!

    Allah Akbar, peace be with you:

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  75. Skeptic says:

    Southern Italians are no dummies. But they’re definitely nepotistic/clannish/fractionalized and whatever other fancy term you like. That explains the mafia not any connection to IQ.

    However, this is is my opinion and I like data. I’d appreciate any pointers to studies that show level of inbreeding required to result in low IQ?

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  76. Platemus says:
    @Ed
    Cousin marriage is taboo in much of West Africa, predating Christian contact, doesn't seem to have helped them much.

    Cousin marriage is taboo in much of West Africa, predating Christian contact, doesn’t seem to have helped them much.

    Because they can’t impregnate their cousins unless they marry them, and having sex outside of marriage is taboo in much of West Africa?

    Just trying to follow your logic, here.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  77. anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Anonym
    Does ethnocentrism increase as cosanguinity increases? My guess is that it increases clannishness but not necessarily ethnocentrism.

    One other question this raises is Jewishness, cosanguinity and IQ. Stupid google won't link directly to an article by HBD Chick, but there is an article there on cosanguinity among Jews. Among Ashkenazi it is low, 1.4%, whereas Sephardim have around 9% I think. Maybe that's part of the IQ difference.

    Does ethnocentrism increase as cosanguinity increases? My guess is that it increases clannishness but not necessarily ethnocentrism.

    I think what happens is the “border” of “ethno” changes with levels of consanquinity i.e.
    - ethnocentric about their clan but not tribe
    - ethnocentric about their tribe but not nation
    etc

    One other question this raises is Jewishness, cosanguinity and IQ.

    Yes, Ashkenazi adopting the west Euro marriage model to fit in may have removed earlier inbreeding depression.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  78. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    This came up in my fb feed from some liberal friend at Columbia.

    Excerpt:

    -HBD= “human biodiversity” which is the new euphemism that Nazis use for their “theory” that non-white races are biologically inferior (note: the author of this piece is kind of an asshole who thinks that some amount of scientific racism is okay but the article explains what it is p well http://www.dailykos.com/…/1178414/-Racism-has-a-new-name-HBD)

    http://archive.is/qeycG

    Read More
    • Replies: @Frau Katze
    I don't understand that. The writer obviously hasn't read much about HBD.

    The higher IQs of Ashkenazi Jews and to a lesser extent, Chinese, are no secret.

    That's a pretty weird type of white supremacism, admitting you're not #1.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  79. anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Alec Leamas
    Doesn't it work immensely from the perspective of the grandparent with the wealth (and influence) to pass on though? You seem to be assuming a parity of wealth between families when the truth is that there were few wealthy families, so if you couldn't find a match with more wealth you'd mitigate the dissipation of family wealth by matching cousins (rather than having two of your grandchildren marry available paupers).

    Before the discover of heredity and genetics it made sense even if wealthy families kept ending up with hemophiliacs whose bottom teeth grew through their cheeks. (Aside: I wonder if this is how high birth eventually became associated with physical frailty and cowardice?).

    You seem to be assuming a parity of wealth between families when the truth is that there were few wealthy families…

    Yes – wealth has the same problem as rural villages – limited number of potential marriage partners.

    To find someone of equal wealth who wasn’t a cousin you might have to go far afield and then end up with a landed estate split across multiple counties?

    There may have been an advantage to keeping wealth (land) physically concentrated?

    I wonder if the same applies to herds?

    i.e. a herd of 400 increases faster than one of 100?

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  80. anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Anonymous
    https://twitter.com/BillKristol/status/807981574222479360

    Globalist means traitor – not what he thinks it means.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  81. @TG
    Interesting. But here is another possible (only POSSIBLE, mind) angle.

    It is an iron law of development that no country without an open frontier becomes rich until AFTER fertility rates have fallen. That's because societies where people have zillions of kids early without worrying if they can support them, are inevitably capital-starved, and thus poor, unable to invest in new technologies, and corrupt.

    My question is: are societies with high rates of cousin marriages likely to have higher fertility rates? That's certainly true in much of the islamic world today. Women are treated as slaves, they cannot go out and seek their own mates, so they have to be set up by their male relatives, and hence cousin marriages are common - probably because it's just convenient. This is part of a system where women are encouraged/forced to breed like cattle, and that always results in grinding poverty and society-wide stagnation etc..

    Just a thought.

    You are a father, and you control your daughter’s fertility. You don’t just give that to anybody. You give it to someone you trust- your sibling’s children.

    The sociologist Robin Fox has thought a lot about this and its consequences.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  82. anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Gabriel M

    This research advances the hypothesis and empirically demonstrates that the strength of extended kin-groups (as proxied by cousin marriage) is most likely at the core of the large developmental differences in institutional quality and democracy across countries
     
    Yeah, it's not like the "core factor" could be that median IQ in Nigeria is functionally retarded by western standards.

    So much Sociology is like a bad detective drama, it's never the five times convicted burglar who murdered that guy, no, it's the happily married CEO.

    The IQ ~ GDP per capita correlation isn’t 100%.

    (e.g. Scandi seems to do better then it should from the IQ estimates iirc)

    I’d say multiplying average IQ with some kind of corruption/cooperation index is likely to explain a lot of the anomalies

    and this factor may partly explain higher cooperation / lower corruption.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  83. anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Anonymous Nephew
    "the disappearance of extended kin-groups in Europe is one of the central preconditions for the development of public law and the political state"

    I read this and thought "I wonder if cousin marriage is common among travelling folk?"

    "Almost two in every five Irish Traveller marriages are between cousins"

    "The ideal marriage of the Roma is to marry a second cousin from the same vitsa because then the coparents-in-law (Xanamik) will be aunt or uncle to nephew or niece"

    And in line with that data, Roma bad-boys in the UK, while pretty antisocial (pickpocketing and snatches at cash machines etc), don't go in for outrageous scofflaw stuff so much as Irish travellers do. First cousin marriage is apparently illegal in Romania.

    "Car boot sale row erupts into violence as 'traveller families clash'"

    Yes, if you’ve had dealings with gypsies/travellers the stuff about Arab cousin marriage immediately rings a bell.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  84. anon says: • Disclaimer
    @SPMoore8
    26 US states and all European countries allow first cousin marriage, so it is easy to infer that the practice is not that unusual. (Anything farther out than first cousin marriage is barely on the radar.)

    My own genealogical research indicates that it is also not uncommon among Americans historically, in upper middle, middle, and lower social classes (cousin intermarriage among European royalty extends that to all social classes.) None in my direct line, thank you so much.

    TBH the only problem I can see with it is possible genetic blowback, but now we're talking about diseases from inbreeding, ranging from hemophilia to Tay-Sachs and similar type things. But the people who carry those diseases are hardly dummies. I think the notion of inbreeding being associated with sub-optimal intelligence is way overrated. (I recall the Jewish guy who wrote the poem about UVA also referenced this "inbreeding" notion = stupid in his ca. 1940 poem.)

    Of course all of these limitations were established by custom long before modern genetics, which is after all only about a century old. I myself would not recommend cousin marriage for breeding purposes, but then there's more to marriage than having kids: just ask any LGBTQQIAA couple (I know, I'm leaving off half a dozen letters, I'm old and it's hard to learn new ones.)

    The only positive non-genetic association with out-marriage I can see is that it tends to weaken political interests defined by families versus the nation state, and as Steve predicted (and we know historically) such tight family formations have tended to retard national growth, not only in MENA but in parts of Europe. On the other hand, we still have phenomena like the Kennedy, Clinton and Bush "families" who somehow manage to remain intact and powerful even without cousin marriage.

    I think a certain measure of out-marriage makes for a more robust specimen; I know that everyone here harps on IQ but there are many other desirable traits, including body shape, height, health, disease resistance, strength, stamina, character, resolve, etc. etc. Basically, I'd trade 20 IQ points any day of the week if good health, focused character, and a long life (80-90) were on the table. Who wouldn't?

    26 US states and all European countries allow first cousin marriage, so it is easy to infer that the practice is not that unusual.

    for n hundred years it was unusual

    and by the time it wasn’t (and possibly as a result) the populations were much larger and more urbanized so inbreeding was less of an issue

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  85. @anon

    Who came up with the extremely ridiculous myth that incest sex is way more common among White Southerners than it is among any other demographic group on the planet?

    I guarantee cousin fucking is way more common in Somalia and Syria than it is in South Carolina.
     

    The Highland Scots resided in the Carolina's way back in the day, and... well... we're talking about people too stupid to make pants, here, son. They had massive families in the backwoods, were very clan oriented, and cousin fucking was never out of the question before WWII.

    The reputation of the Scots preceded them all the way back to the Revolutionary War, and civilized folk had the same reaction: not their favorite people. The turn-of-the-century immigrant Irish were often worse than the Scots, and that's saying something. They fucked everything.

    Since until relatively recently, like before the steam locomotive, most American's never travelled outside a 20 mile perimeter of their place of birth, so meeting new people was problematic.

    btw, I recall Benjamin Franklin breeched the subject with an Arab he had met casually. Franklin took the "con" side to cousin marriages. The Arab, as recounted by Franklin, asked how often non-related married couples wound up divorcing. Turns out divorces were more frequent with non-cousins marrying, and besides, the Arab pointed out, after a cousin divorce, the assets remain in the clan, rather than being extracted by the woman from another clan.

    Franklin concluded the Arab had won the argument. He didn't become an advocate for cousin marriage, but he understood.

    My clannishness must be the Scott in me. Either that or I’m just too cynical about others, after all Most People Are Idiots (MPAI.)

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  86. @Anatoly Karlin
    Looks like it's becoming fashionable for economists to "borrow" hbd*chick ideas... without attribution.

    Here's another example from less than a month ago:

    https://twitter.com/hbdchick/status/801176586812882950

    Not citing HBD chick is a side effect of the fact that only pseudonymous people are willing to aggregate such CrimeThink in one place. It seems that no one wants to cite a pseudonymous blog yet.

    Emphasis on YET.

    Both hbd chick and jayman seem to be the only people willing to aggregate the bits and pieces of data supporting hbd.

    Let’s face it, any social or biological scientist who did so would be lucky to survive with a job as custodian, cleaning up the puke in dorm hallways on Sunday mornings.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  87. Do the Chinese or other east Asians marry their cousins?

    Read More
    • Replies: @anon
    According to hbdchick's research they used to but not as much recently.

    The gist seems to be that cousin marriage is/was the global default human behavior but urbanization has been breaking it down *unless* the local culture actively maintains it.

    The exception being western Europe since c. 1000AD (give or take a few centuries depending on region).

    So effectively the church's cousin ban was artificial mass urbanization.

    (imo)
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  88. OT, but the philosopher thingy at The NY Times, The Stone, goes full wacko today:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/12/opinion/can-evolution-have-a-higher-purpose.html

    Robert Wright argues that evolution may very well have a purpose. And what might that purpose be?

    .

    …But I will say that the evidence I see for purpose includes not just the direction of biological evolution, but the direction of technological evolution and of the broader social and cultural evolution it drives — the evolution that has carried us from hunter-gatherer bands to the brink of a cohesive global community. And if the purpose involves sustaining this direction — becoming a true global community — then it would seem to include moral progress. In particular, our purpose would involve transcending the psychology of tribalism that can otherwise divide people along ethnic, national, religious and ideological lines. Which would mean — in light of recent political and social developments in the United States and abroad — that our work is cut out for us.

    So, bottom line, the purpose of evolution is to defeat Trump.

    These are our elites, year 2016.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  89. The bold part of this OT comment externalizes potential upsides/ downsides of societies powered on the juices of consanguineous cultural deviancy:

    “…CIA analyst John Nixon, has told the story of Hussein’s first moments in capture in the book ‘Debriefing the President: The Interrogation of Saddam Hussein’:

    Hussein remained adamant that he did not plot to kill President George H.W. Bush after the Persian Gulf War — and looked satisfied when he heard bombings outside, thinking his supporters may be winning the skirmish outside.

    ‘You are going to fail,’ Saddam said back then. ‘You are going to find it is not so easy to govern Iraq.’ “

    …and Zer Experts had it – intentionally of course – all wrong , from day one.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  90. whorefinder says: • Website
    @dearieme
    "This was the major problem of England’s Henry VIII. Only two daughters lived to adulthood." Don't overlook the son who became Edward VI. He too died childless.

    Note too that Henry VIII was a good catholic. He didn't divorce his first wife; the marriage was annulled.

    Note too that Henry VIII was a good catholic. He didn’t divorce his first wife; the marriage was annulled.

    Um, what? The Pope refused to annul the marriage. That was the prime cause for Henry breaking England off from the Catholic Church.

    Read More
    • Replies: @dearieme
    Exactly. So he kept his church catholic, but with himself as Big Man rather than the pope, and granted himself an annulment. His ambition was to have an English Catholic Church that would replace the Roman Catholic one. But many of his subjects were getting interested in Lutheranism.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  91. Daniel H says:
    @blah blah blah blah
    I found to my surprise that in Murphy Village, SC (outside Augusta, GA) there's an Irish Traveller community. I found--not to my surprise--that a bunch of them were just busted by the FBI for scheming: http://www.thestate.com/news/local/crime/article96051242.html

    They run a lot of the rinky-dink old fashioned carnivals that you still see out in the old weird America.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  92. anon says: • Disclaimer
    @dearieme
    "This was the major problem of England’s Henry VIII. Only two daughters lived to adulthood." Don't overlook the son who became Edward VI. He too died childless.

    Note too that Henry VIII was a good catholic. He didn't divorce his first wife; the marriage was annulled.

    Normally I wouldn’t mention this sort of thing, but it makes a difference in this case. “Catholic” refers to the RCC; “catholic” means universal or wide-ranging. Ex. “He had a catholic taste in furniture” meaning not that he festooned his house with prie-dieux, but that he liked all sorts of things, perhaps from Modernist to Louis XIV.

    If your opinion is that King Henry was a good Catholic you must be an Anglican! Though I suppose he was catholic, certainly so in his choice of people to kill.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  93. @Anon
    New England Puritans are more inbred than you think. If you do genealogy, you'll find cousin marriage cropping up more often than you'd expect in colonial times. In the first few generations, you had a small number of settlers who had huge families who were all living in small villages, and this situation limited the potential marriage pool until the population began to increase via new waves of immigrants. I'm willing to bet all old New Englanders have a few cousin marriages in their backgrounds they have no clue about because the average person doesn't do genealogy. I've got several generations of cousin marriages in my own background from around the 1600s and 1700s of the sort that would make your eyeballs fall out and roll around if you looked at my ancestry chart. *Points hard at Nantucket*

    Ironically, the playground of the Democrat elite – Martha’s Vineyard – has so much inbreeding that there is widespread heritary deafness:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martha%27s_Vineyard_Sign_Language

    Read More
    • Replies: @James Kabala
    Of course that was long before any rich mainlanders summered there.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  94. PapayaSF says:
    @Arclight
    The left's fetish for multiculturalism runs so deep that on the one hand they deride rural whites for alleged incest, low levels of education, and religious fundamentalism and on the other hand insist the country welcome people from regions of the planet where there is actual incest on a wide scale, whose residents have grade school level education and whose religion is the most antithetical to progressive beliefs by a long shot. If only the MENAs that we are supposed to have the welcome mat out for were as educated and progressive as the Deplorables.

    It all makes sense if you see the left as essentially being anti-European/Christian civilization.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  95. PapayaSF says:
    @TG
    Interesting. But here is another possible (only POSSIBLE, mind) angle.

    It is an iron law of development that no country without an open frontier becomes rich until AFTER fertility rates have fallen. That's because societies where people have zillions of kids early without worrying if they can support them, are inevitably capital-starved, and thus poor, unable to invest in new technologies, and corrupt.

    My question is: are societies with high rates of cousin marriages likely to have higher fertility rates? That's certainly true in much of the islamic world today. Women are treated as slaves, they cannot go out and seek their own mates, so they have to be set up by their male relatives, and hence cousin marriages are common - probably because it's just convenient. This is part of a system where women are encouraged/forced to breed like cattle, and that always results in grinding poverty and society-wide stagnation etc..

    Just a thought.

    Cousin marriage in the Islamic world is sanctioned by the life of Muhammad. He was the “perfect man,” he did it, and so to Muslims, it’s a good thing. It has had devastating genetic effects:

    http://pickeringpost.com/story/the-cost-of-islamic-incest/1316

    (Warning: the picture there is rather disturbing.)

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  96. @Lars
    It would have been nice to see references to Steve Sailer and HBD Chick in the paper.

    It would have been nice to see references to Steve Sailer and HBD Chick in the paper.

    Nice guys don’t make it to Yale.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  97. Travis says:
    @dearieme
    Protestantism, especially in Germany, depended on support from princes, nobles and wealthy burghers. Might such people choose cousin marriages to accumulate property? That might have the opposite incentive structure from the Roman Church which was delighted to have families not accumulating property but leaving it to the church instead.

    So my suspicion is that Protestant churchmen often frowned on cousin marriages but didn't ban them.

    Mind you, what about the Habsburgs? The usual Roman Catholic exemption for anyone important enough?

    I conjecture that there would be a rise in cousin marriages among royalty when the number of German statelets was reduced from Napoleon onwards, because the number of suitable royal marriage candidates decreased. Frinstance Queen Victoria.

    As part of his criticism on the practices of the Roman Catholic Church, Martin Luther had condemned the ban on cousin marriages, since according to Divine Rule as revealed in Leviticus 18:7–18, there should be no impediment to marriage between first cousins. Accordingly, first-cousin marriages were accepted by the Protestant denominations.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  98. anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Alec Leamas
    Doesn't it work immensely from the perspective of the grandparent with the wealth (and influence) to pass on though? You seem to be assuming a parity of wealth between families when the truth is that there were few wealthy families, so if you couldn't find a match with more wealth you'd mitigate the dissipation of family wealth by matching cousins (rather than having two of your grandchildren marry available paupers).

    Before the discover of heredity and genetics it made sense even if wealthy families kept ending up with hemophiliacs whose bottom teeth grew through their cheeks. (Aside: I wonder if this is how high birth eventually became associated with physical frailty and cowardice?).

    (Aside: I wonder if this is how high birth eventually became associated with physical frailty and cowardice?)

    No, that was probably Marxist or socialist propaganda. The upper classes were until recently considered rather more athletic than the lower, owing to diet and exercise, and were often expected to join the army or navy, thus hardly cowards. See Chesterton on this, or anyone else up to the turn of the twentieth century, or really before the War.

    The real weaklings and hemophiliacs cropped up in royal lines, not generic aristocracy.

    Madness is something else; the English upper and middle classes were famously eccentric, but I suspect this to be simply a development of the national culture.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  99. Jefferson says:
    @anon

    Who came up with the extremely ridiculous myth that incest sex is way more common among White Southerners than it is among any other demographic group on the planet?

    I guarantee cousin fucking is way more common in Somalia and Syria than it is in South Carolina.
     

    The Highland Scots resided in the Carolina's way back in the day, and... well... we're talking about people too stupid to make pants, here, son. They had massive families in the backwoods, were very clan oriented, and cousin fucking was never out of the question before WWII.

    The reputation of the Scots preceded them all the way back to the Revolutionary War, and civilized folk had the same reaction: not their favorite people. The turn-of-the-century immigrant Irish were often worse than the Scots, and that's saying something. They fucked everything.

    Since until relatively recently, like before the steam locomotive, most American's never travelled outside a 20 mile perimeter of their place of birth, so meeting new people was problematic.

    btw, I recall Benjamin Franklin breeched the subject with an Arab he had met casually. Franklin took the "con" side to cousin marriages. The Arab, as recounted by Franklin, asked how often non-related married couples wound up divorcing. Turns out divorces were more frequent with non-cousins marrying, and besides, the Arab pointed out, after a cousin divorce, the assets remain in the clan, rather than being extracted by the woman from another clan.

    Franklin concluded the Arab had won the argument. He didn't become an advocate for cousin marriage, but he understood.

    “Since until relatively recently, like before the steam locomotive, most American’s never travelled outside a 20 mile perimeter of their place of birth,”

    Even in 2016 at least among the Black welfare underclass in this country, most of them have never traveled very far from the place that they were born.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  100. @Santoculto
    Democracy in the contemporary era seems very recent. Western Europe was democratic during the XIX or earlier?? I don't think so.

    Western Europeans since a long time has been open to "en masse--immigration experiment/experience" ?? Most of them are in this days?? They has been open to the lgbt issues since a long time?? They has been individualistic as they are today?? Less religious??

    NO.

    Only since 60's aka "cultural revolution" they started to be more "open-minded".

    I no doubt different cousin marriage rates is likely to have different results in many behaviorally relevant stuff but I believe SOME people are using this hypothesis to explain everything about current suicidal "western behavior".

    There are (((other))) issues who are fundamental to explain the big and whole picture and it can't be forget.

    Western Europeans, long time without cousin marriage higher rates, has behaved just like most of the other groups. Lack of cousin marriages Don't prevent them to massacre themselves during two big worldwide conflicts, for example.

    Interestingly and obvious to perceive no other culture has changed so much and many times like "western culture". We have chronologically encapsulated generations living in the same house.

    You miss the point. The thesis is that the ban on cousin marriage and consequent weakening of clans is what allowed for the rise of the modern nation states in west Europe. Those states then (sometimes) become democratic. The immense scale of the world wars is not an indication of clannish behaviour, but the lack of it.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Santoculto
    Re-read my comment if you want.

    "Democratic" societies as we know is a very recent phenomena in contemporary era. So we have centuries with less cousin marriages in such places like Scandinavia, Germania and Britain, and this magic causality simply don't happened, people become nuclearly-clannish (still clannish) and just very recently all the "universalistic traits" hbders claim to be a unique and demographically prevalent among NW Europeans started to be expressed, of course, after Jewish cultural revolution. Before 60's Europeans and diaspora were just like most of the non WEIRD people around the world.
    We are not talking about a unilinear causality "less cousin marriage cause universalism" because there are many other factors for example social conformity influencing people to conform to the new emperor clothes. We have changes in the socio-ideological structures for example "it's cool to be open minded" than the old "it's correct to be biased". Cultural epicenter from the religion to the ideology.

    The first modern European state was Portugal after Assis revolution...during the XIV century. Cousin marriage ban explain it? No.

    Of course the animosity among Europeans that was quite vivid in the beginning of the XX century was example of lack of clannishness of course. In the modern states the clan become the nation.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  101. As VoxDay suggests, the Elites always rule. It is just a matter of which set of elites are ruling at any one time.

    I suspect that once the the notion of democracy became well enough known, the elites figured out how to hack it.

    Remember, its seems to have been Bismark who invented the notion of the Welfare State:

    https://infogalactic.com/info/Otto_von_Bismarck

    Read More
    • Replies: @Frau Katze
    Bismarck wasn't being humanitarian. He was just trying to prevent Marxism from taking over.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  102. Whoever says:
    @Whiskey
    The "Southerners as sister/cousin molesters" stuff came out of New England disdain for Southerners and seems to date before the Civil War. Though it was really turbo-charged during the 1950s when Blacks became not only important Cold War pawns but totems of moral superiority of Puritan GoodWhites against "Redneck" BadWhites.

    You could argue that the War of the Roundheads against Cavaliers has never really ended. Nor will it ever end. It can't. That BadWhites exist and show a different way of living for White people is nothing less than an existential threat to GoodWhites who rely on complete and total thought conformity. It is not enough for mere compliance on outward matters of obedience. It is far more important to get thoughts in line; that's a feature not a bug of GoodWhite societies since the Puritans hanged old Quaker ladies for preaching the wrong sort of Gospel. Puritans see themselves as tiny sparks of light always threatened by the darkness.

    James M. Cain’s The Butterfly, about father-daughter incest in the West Virginia coal country, came out in 1946, and I’ve often wondered if it’s the foundation of all the modern-day dismissal of Appalachian people as inbred losers.
    You’d think that the West Virginia history of resisting slavery and secession (that’s why there is a West Virginia), as well as its union organizing and fighting the capitalist oppressor (the Battle of Matewan, for example) would make the hill folk icons of the leftest pantheon instead of objects of derision.
    Or maybe it was Erskine Caldwell’s God’s Little Acre, published in 1933, about a rutting family of Georgia yokels, that helped form the modern image. Those sorts of books might have been the beginning of the Flight from White.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    One of the oldest studies cited in Consang.net database of cousin marriage studies is of some hillbilly holler in Kentucky where about 18% of marriages were between cousins (mostly second cousins, not first cousins). American eugenicists were big against cousin marriage, so they played it up as a downscale vice.
    , @syonredux

    Or maybe it was Erskine Caldwell’s God’s Little Acre, published in 1933, about a rutting family of Georgia yokels, that helped form the modern image. Those sorts of books might have been the beginning of the Flight from White.

     

    Caldwell was very interested in eugenics:

    Erskine Preston Caldwell (December 17, 1903 – April 11, 1987) was an American author.[1][2] His writings about poverty, racism and social problems in his native Southern United States in novels such as Tobacco Road and God’s Little Acre won him critical acclaim, but also made him controversial among Southerners of the time who felt he was deprecating the people of the region. Caldwell was a supporter of eugenics at a time it was gaining in popularity in the United States, and his novels can be read as promoting new legislation requiring involuntary sterilization.
     
    Caldwell >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erskine_Caldwell

    Two primary manifestations of the eugenics movement in America were the involuntary sterilization of certain classes of people, including the mentally ill and disabled and some types of criminals, and the “family study,” genealogical reports that traced criminal behavior, immorality, and mental problems throughout family trees to determine whether the characteristics are inheritable. Both family studies and sterilization proved to be important fodder for American literary authors, who made significant use of the rhetoric of family and propagation. Erskine Caldwell’s Tobacco Road is particularly interesting to read with eugenics in mind, for the 1932 novel is intrinsically bound up with issues of breeding, heredity, and degeneration. Caldwell’s text, which he characterized as literary realism, relies not only on the genre of family study in general but more particularly on a study conducted by Caldwell’s father in 1928 and published two years later in the journal Eugenics; Ira Caldwell had attempted to rescue a poor white family from what he saw as the conditions of their ongoing degeneracy but was rejected completely by the family, leading to his renunciation of many of his social reform ideals in favor of sterilization programs. Erskine Caldwell drew heavily on his father’s failed attempt at reform, and Tobacco Road ultimately argues for the sterilization of Georgia’s poor whites, but with the pessimistic caveat that the problems of degeneracy and rural poverty have no final solution. Caldwell’s manipulation of his audience, his observation of his father’s eugenics experimentation, and his use of extended metaphors, both mechanical and agricultural, for family all create a deeply cynical novel that condemns America’s economic modus operandi for the living conditions of the poor but also condemns those poor as being permanently beyond help. In the end, Caldwell argues that the poor – in both money and breeding – will be always with us and that we are doomed to witness the full horror of their degradation without the possibility of either relieving their plight or eradicating them.
     
    http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=107643
    , @Desiderius

    Or maybe it was Erskine Caldwell’s God’s Little Acre, published in 1933, about a rutting family of Georgia yokels, that helped form the modern image. Those sorts of books might have been the beginning of the Flight from White.
     
    Flannery O'Connor properly read holds up a mirror to all humanity (and not just humanity), but one can see her being easily misread as fodder for anti-white, anti-South bigotry.

    O'Connor said: "anything that comes out of the South is going to be called grotesque by the northern reader, unless it is grotesque, in which case it is going to be called realistic."

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  103. @Whoever
    James M. Cain's The Butterfly, about father-daughter incest in the West Virginia coal country, came out in 1946, and I've often wondered if it's the foundation of all the modern-day dismissal of Appalachian people as inbred losers.
    You'd think that the West Virginia history of resisting slavery and secession (that's why there is a West Virginia), as well as its union organizing and fighting the capitalist oppressor (the Battle of Matewan, for example) would make the hill folk icons of the leftest pantheon instead of objects of derision.
    Or maybe it was Erskine Caldwell's God's Little Acre, published in 1933, about a rutting family of Georgia yokels, that helped form the modern image. Those sorts of books might have been the beginning of the Flight from White.

    One of the oldest studies cited in Consang.net database of cousin marriage studies is of some hillbilly holler in Kentucky where about 18% of marriages were between cousins (mostly second cousins, not first cousins). American eugenicists were big against cousin marriage, so they played it up as a downscale vice.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  104. syonredux says:
    @Whoever
    James M. Cain's The Butterfly, about father-daughter incest in the West Virginia coal country, came out in 1946, and I've often wondered if it's the foundation of all the modern-day dismissal of Appalachian people as inbred losers.
    You'd think that the West Virginia history of resisting slavery and secession (that's why there is a West Virginia), as well as its union organizing and fighting the capitalist oppressor (the Battle of Matewan, for example) would make the hill folk icons of the leftest pantheon instead of objects of derision.
    Or maybe it was Erskine Caldwell's God's Little Acre, published in 1933, about a rutting family of Georgia yokels, that helped form the modern image. Those sorts of books might have been the beginning of the Flight from White.

    Or maybe it was Erskine Caldwell’s God’s Little Acre, published in 1933, about a rutting family of Georgia yokels, that helped form the modern image. Those sorts of books might have been the beginning of the Flight from White.

    Caldwell was very interested in eugenics:

    Erskine Preston Caldwell (December 17, 1903 – April 11, 1987) was an American author.[1][2] His writings about poverty, racism and social problems in his native Southern United States in novels such as Tobacco Road and God’s Little Acre won him critical acclaim, but also made him controversial among Southerners of the time who felt he was deprecating the people of the region. Caldwell was a supporter of eugenics at a time it was gaining in popularity in the United States, and his novels can be read as promoting new legislation requiring involuntary sterilization.

    Caldwell >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erskine_Caldwell

    Two primary manifestations of the eugenics movement in America were the involuntary sterilization of certain classes of people, including the mentally ill and disabled and some types of criminals, and the “family study,” genealogical reports that traced criminal behavior, immorality, and mental problems throughout family trees to determine whether the characteristics are inheritable. Both family studies and sterilization proved to be important fodder for American literary authors, who made significant use of the rhetoric of family and propagation. Erskine Caldwell’s Tobacco Road is particularly interesting to read with eugenics in mind, for the 1932 novel is intrinsically bound up with issues of breeding, heredity, and degeneration. Caldwell’s text, which he characterized as literary realism, relies not only on the genre of family study in general but more particularly on a study conducted by Caldwell’s father in 1928 and published two years later in the journal Eugenics; Ira Caldwell had attempted to rescue a poor white family from what he saw as the conditions of their ongoing degeneracy but was rejected completely by the family, leading to his renunciation of many of his social reform ideals in favor of sterilization programs. Erskine Caldwell drew heavily on his father’s failed attempt at reform, and Tobacco Road ultimately argues for the sterilization of Georgia’s poor whites, but with the pessimistic caveat that the problems of degeneracy and rural poverty have no final solution. Caldwell’s manipulation of his audience, his observation of his father’s eugenics experimentation, and his use of extended metaphors, both mechanical and agricultural, for family all create a deeply cynical novel that condemns America’s economic modus operandi for the living conditions of the poor but also condemns those poor as being permanently beyond help. In the end, Caldwell argues that the poor – in both money and breeding – will be always with us and that we are doomed to witness the full horror of their degradation without the possibility of either relieving their plight or eradicating them.

    http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=107643

    Read More
    • Replies: @SPMoore8
    I'm glad someone brought up Tobacco Road because that always allows one to link to what is perhaps one of the most prurient of sleazy paperback covers from the '40's through the '60's: those were the days.

    But in addition to Erskine Caldwell, there was also the issue of general rural feeble mindedness, which was forcefully argued by Henry Goddard in The Kallikak Family: A Study in the Heredity of Feeble-Mindedness as far back as 1912.

    https://myporchblog.files.wordpress.com/2015/11/tobacco-road-2.jpg

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Kallikak_Family

    Successions of cousin marriage don't make you stupid, but they do make you unhealthy.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  105. dearieme says:
    @whorefinder

    Note too that Henry VIII was a good catholic. He didn’t divorce his first wife; the marriage was annulled.
     
    Um, what? The Pope refused to annul the marriage. That was the prime cause for Henry breaking England off from the Catholic Church.

    Exactly. So he kept his church catholic, but with himself as Big Man rather than the pope, and granted himself an annulment. His ambition was to have an English Catholic Church that would replace the Roman Catholic one. But many of his subjects were getting interested in Lutheranism.

    Read More
    • Replies: @whorefinder

    So he kept his church catholic, but with himself as Big Man rather than the pope, and granted himself an annulment.
     
    lmao. You could've just said, "Whoops, sorry, I was wrong!" but nooooo....now you're just doubling down on the stupid, and trying to pretend "Catholic" in this context means something besides what it normally means.

    In other words, a typical leftist: double down, and pretend definitions changed.

    You're just wrong, stupid.

    His ambition was to have an English Catholic Church that would replace the Roman Catholic one. But many of his subjects were getting interested in Lutheranism.
     
    Henry VIII was interested in having a young hot wife bear him a son. He had no pretenses beyond that, having abandoned his faith. He had no ambitions towards his own Church or Lutheranism, hence why England fell into a century and half of religious wars and upheavals after Henry died---because he hadn't set up any religious ideology, because he wasn't interested.

    For crying out loud, even the most ardent Anglican/Episcopalian recognizes that Henry's motives were purely selfish and had no higher thought than what was in his pants and having a boy. Give it up, son, you look the fool.
    , @Anon
    Yeah, so interested they launched the Pilgrimage of Grace.

    (sarcasm off)

    I guess it really isn't surprising that Cranmer and the others who were willing to bend would tend towards Lutheranism. It's interesting that the English church is still the only church in the world, bar maybe the Old Catholics, where a question exists among the members whether the church is Catholic or Protestant.

    But one thing it certainly isn't is catholic (small c), since Henry R. cut himself off from communion with the rest of the Christian world.

    I'm not an Anglican, but I'm curious: did Parliament have to declare the marriage null and void or was that something the King (or Cranmer) could do himself? And what degree of authority does Parliament or the monarch have over the English Church outside England?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  106. SPMoore8 says:
    @syonredux

    Or maybe it was Erskine Caldwell’s God’s Little Acre, published in 1933, about a rutting family of Georgia yokels, that helped form the modern image. Those sorts of books might have been the beginning of the Flight from White.

     

    Caldwell was very interested in eugenics:

    Erskine Preston Caldwell (December 17, 1903 – April 11, 1987) was an American author.[1][2] His writings about poverty, racism and social problems in his native Southern United States in novels such as Tobacco Road and God’s Little Acre won him critical acclaim, but also made him controversial among Southerners of the time who felt he was deprecating the people of the region. Caldwell was a supporter of eugenics at a time it was gaining in popularity in the United States, and his novels can be read as promoting new legislation requiring involuntary sterilization.
     
    Caldwell >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erskine_Caldwell

    Two primary manifestations of the eugenics movement in America were the involuntary sterilization of certain classes of people, including the mentally ill and disabled and some types of criminals, and the “family study,” genealogical reports that traced criminal behavior, immorality, and mental problems throughout family trees to determine whether the characteristics are inheritable. Both family studies and sterilization proved to be important fodder for American literary authors, who made significant use of the rhetoric of family and propagation. Erskine Caldwell’s Tobacco Road is particularly interesting to read with eugenics in mind, for the 1932 novel is intrinsically bound up with issues of breeding, heredity, and degeneration. Caldwell’s text, which he characterized as literary realism, relies not only on the genre of family study in general but more particularly on a study conducted by Caldwell’s father in 1928 and published two years later in the journal Eugenics; Ira Caldwell had attempted to rescue a poor white family from what he saw as the conditions of their ongoing degeneracy but was rejected completely by the family, leading to his renunciation of many of his social reform ideals in favor of sterilization programs. Erskine Caldwell drew heavily on his father’s failed attempt at reform, and Tobacco Road ultimately argues for the sterilization of Georgia’s poor whites, but with the pessimistic caveat that the problems of degeneracy and rural poverty have no final solution. Caldwell’s manipulation of his audience, his observation of his father’s eugenics experimentation, and his use of extended metaphors, both mechanical and agricultural, for family all create a deeply cynical novel that condemns America’s economic modus operandi for the living conditions of the poor but also condemns those poor as being permanently beyond help. In the end, Caldwell argues that the poor – in both money and breeding – will be always with us and that we are doomed to witness the full horror of their degradation without the possibility of either relieving their plight or eradicating them.
     
    http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=107643

    I’m glad someone brought up Tobacco Road because that always allows one to link to what is perhaps one of the most prurient of sleazy paperback covers from the ’40′s through the ’60′s: those were the days.

    But in addition to Erskine Caldwell, there was also the issue of general rural feeble mindedness, which was forcefully argued by Henry Goddard in The Kallikak Family: A Study in the Heredity of Feeble-Mindedness as far back as 1912.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Kallikak_Family

    Successions of cousin marriage don’t make you stupid, but they do make you unhealthy.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  107. SFG says:
    @Jefferson
    Who came up with the extremely ridiculous myth that incest sex is way more common among White Southerners than it is among any other demographic group on the planet?

    I guarantee cousin fucking is way more common in Somalia and Syria than it is in South Carolina.

    It’s the old Civil War-era prejudice of the North against the South, and the ancient tradition of accusing your enemies of sexual peccadilloes. Hollywood picked it up and ran with it in movies like Deliverance as their sympathies would be obvious, but it goes back further than that. Country people accuse city people of wife swapping and gay sex, city people accuse country people of sex with animals and inbreeding. It’s an exaggeration of realities, like most stereotypes–kinkier stuff really does go on in the city, and nobody is going to find a pig to fool around with in New York. There is going to be more inbreeding in rural areas because of the isolation, but of course it’s exaggerated for effect.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  108. @oddsbodkins
    You miss the point. The thesis is that the ban on cousin marriage and consequent weakening of clans is what allowed for the rise of the modern nation states in west Europe. Those states then (sometimes) become democratic. The immense scale of the world wars is not an indication of clannish behaviour, but the lack of it.

    Re-read my comment if you want.

    “Democratic” societies as we know is a very recent phenomena in contemporary era. So we have centuries with less cousin marriages in such places like Scandinavia, Germania and Britain, and this magic causality simply don’t happened, people become nuclearly-clannish (still clannish) and just very recently all the “universalistic traits” hbders claim to be a unique and demographically prevalent among NW Europeans started to be expressed, of course, after Jewish cultural revolution. Before 60′s Europeans and diaspora were just like most of the non WEIRD people around the world.
    We are not talking about a unilinear causality “less cousin marriage cause universalism” because there are many other factors for example social conformity influencing people to conform to the new emperor clothes. We have changes in the socio-ideological structures for example “it’s cool to be open minded” than the old “it’s correct to be biased”. Cultural epicenter from the religion to the ideology.

    The first modern European state was Portugal after Assis revolution…during the XIV century. Cousin marriage ban explain it? No.

    Of course the animosity among Europeans that was quite vivid in the beginning of the XX century was example of lack of clannishness of course. In the modern states the clan become the nation.

    Read More
    • Replies: @ussr andy
    it's not just democracy or its sexually depraved post-war variant, liberal democracy. it's the whole "getting along with strangers" and "not having to enumerate all your ancestors till you find a common one when meeting people so you know whether to trust them" thing (as they do in Somalia... or was it Polynesia)

    high consang rates sadly do inhibit the formation of... formal, contractual relations within a society.
    http://thosewhocansee.blogspot.de/2013/09/arabs-and-liberal-democracy-primer.html

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  109. @Whoever
    James M. Cain's The Butterfly, about father-daughter incest in the West Virginia coal country, came out in 1946, and I've often wondered if it's the foundation of all the modern-day dismissal of Appalachian people as inbred losers.
    You'd think that the West Virginia history of resisting slavery and secession (that's why there is a West Virginia), as well as its union organizing and fighting the capitalist oppressor (the Battle of Matewan, for example) would make the hill folk icons of the leftest pantheon instead of objects of derision.
    Or maybe it was Erskine Caldwell's God's Little Acre, published in 1933, about a rutting family of Georgia yokels, that helped form the modern image. Those sorts of books might have been the beginning of the Flight from White.

    Or maybe it was Erskine Caldwell’s God’s Little Acre, published in 1933, about a rutting family of Georgia yokels, that helped form the modern image. Those sorts of books might have been the beginning of the Flight from White.

    Flannery O’Connor properly read holds up a mirror to all humanity (and not just humanity), but one can see her being easily misread as fodder for anti-white, anti-South bigotry.

    O’Connor said: “anything that comes out of the South is going to be called grotesque by the northern reader, unless it is grotesque, in which case it is going to be called realistic.”

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  110. whorefinder says: • Website
    @dearieme
    Exactly. So he kept his church catholic, but with himself as Big Man rather than the pope, and granted himself an annulment. His ambition was to have an English Catholic Church that would replace the Roman Catholic one. But many of his subjects were getting interested in Lutheranism.

    So he kept his church catholic, but with himself as Big Man rather than the pope, and granted himself an annulment.

    lmao. You could’ve just said, “Whoops, sorry, I was wrong!” but nooooo….now you’re just doubling down on the stupid, and trying to pretend “Catholic” in this context means something besides what it normally means.

    In other words, a typical leftist: double down, and pretend definitions changed.

    You’re just wrong, stupid.

    His ambition was to have an English Catholic Church that would replace the Roman Catholic one. But many of his subjects were getting interested in Lutheranism.

    Henry VIII was interested in having a young hot wife bear him a son. He had no pretenses beyond that, having abandoned his faith. He had no ambitions towards his own Church or Lutheranism, hence why England fell into a century and half of religious wars and upheavals after Henry died—because he hadn’t set up any religious ideology, because he wasn’t interested.

    For crying out loud, even the most ardent Anglican/Episcopalian recognizes that Henry’s motives were purely selfish and had no higher thought than what was in his pants and having a boy. Give it up, son, you look the fool.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Desiderius

    You could’ve just said, “Whoops, sorry, I was wrong!” but nooooo….now you’re just doubling down on the stupid, and trying to pretend “Catholic” in this context means something besides what it normally means.
     
    Now that makes two of you. Check the Apostle's Creed in many Protestant liturgies if you're unfamiliar with his usage of catholic.

    Your analysis of Henry might make sense if he had lived in the 20th Century. Given the previous century to the one in which he actually lived, his overriding interest in producing a male heir was unlikely to be purely libidinous.
    , @James Kabala
    I think you two actually are saying much the same thing but don't realize it.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  111. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @dearieme
    Exactly. So he kept his church catholic, but with himself as Big Man rather than the pope, and granted himself an annulment. His ambition was to have an English Catholic Church that would replace the Roman Catholic one. But many of his subjects were getting interested in Lutheranism.

    Yeah, so interested they launched the Pilgrimage of Grace.

    (sarcasm off)

    I guess it really isn’t surprising that Cranmer and the others who were willing to bend would tend towards Lutheranism. It’s interesting that the English church is still the only church in the world, bar maybe the Old Catholics, where a question exists among the members whether the church is Catholic or Protestant.

    But one thing it certainly isn’t is catholic (small c), since Henry R. cut himself off from communion with the rest of the Christian world.

    I’m not an Anglican, but I’m curious: did Parliament have to declare the marriage null and void or was that something the King (or Cranmer) could do himself? And what degree of authority does Parliament or the monarch have over the English Church outside England?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Desiderius

    I guess it really isn’t surprising that Cranmer and the others who were willing to bend would tend towards Lutheranism.
     
    I doubt they would say they were bending toward Lutheranism. Any move in a Protestant direction would be more toward Calvinism, but that came somewhat later.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  112. @Anon
    Yeah, so interested they launched the Pilgrimage of Grace.

    (sarcasm off)

    I guess it really isn't surprising that Cranmer and the others who were willing to bend would tend towards Lutheranism. It's interesting that the English church is still the only church in the world, bar maybe the Old Catholics, where a question exists among the members whether the church is Catholic or Protestant.

    But one thing it certainly isn't is catholic (small c), since Henry R. cut himself off from communion with the rest of the Christian world.

    I'm not an Anglican, but I'm curious: did Parliament have to declare the marriage null and void or was that something the King (or Cranmer) could do himself? And what degree of authority does Parliament or the monarch have over the English Church outside England?

    I guess it really isn’t surprising that Cranmer and the others who were willing to bend would tend towards Lutheranism.

    I doubt they would say they were bending toward Lutheranism. Any move in a Protestant direction would be more toward Calvinism, but that came somewhat later.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  113. StanB1755 says: • Website

    What I find really interesting is that over 10 of the States in the United States of America allow first cousins to marry including having sexual relations. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States_by_state for more information. Some of the States do impose restrictions.

    For example it is perfectly legal to marry your first cousin in the State of California.

    Other States make it a criminal offense to have sex with your first cousin.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Peripatetic commenter

    What I find really interesting is that over 10 of the States in the United States of America allow first cousins to marry including having sexual relations.
     
    What is interesting about that? Marriage implies sexual relations, surely?

    For example it is perfectly legal to marry your first cousin in the State of California.
     
    I think you have just explained something important about California!
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  114. @whorefinder

    So he kept his church catholic, but with himself as Big Man rather than the pope, and granted himself an annulment.
     
    lmao. You could've just said, "Whoops, sorry, I was wrong!" but nooooo....now you're just doubling down on the stupid, and trying to pretend "Catholic" in this context means something besides what it normally means.

    In other words, a typical leftist: double down, and pretend definitions changed.

    You're just wrong, stupid.

    His ambition was to have an English Catholic Church that would replace the Roman Catholic one. But many of his subjects were getting interested in Lutheranism.
     
    Henry VIII was interested in having a young hot wife bear him a son. He had no pretenses beyond that, having abandoned his faith. He had no ambitions towards his own Church or Lutheranism, hence why England fell into a century and half of religious wars and upheavals after Henry died---because he hadn't set up any religious ideology, because he wasn't interested.

    For crying out loud, even the most ardent Anglican/Episcopalian recognizes that Henry's motives were purely selfish and had no higher thought than what was in his pants and having a boy. Give it up, son, you look the fool.

    You could’ve just said, “Whoops, sorry, I was wrong!” but nooooo….now you’re just doubling down on the stupid, and trying to pretend “Catholic” in this context means something besides what it normally means.

    Now that makes two of you. Check the Apostle’s Creed in many Protestant liturgies if you’re unfamiliar with his usage of catholic.

    Your analysis of Henry might make sense if he had lived in the 20th Century. Given the previous century to the one in which he actually lived, his overriding interest in producing a male heir was unlikely to be purely libidinous.

    Read More
    • Replies: @whorefinder

    Now that makes two of you. Check the Apostle’s Creed in many Protestant liturgies if you’re unfamiliar with his usage of catholic.
     
    ROFL. In the context of a religious argument about 16th Century England, using the term "Catholic" refers to the Roman Catholic Church, not the Church of England/Anglicanism/Episcopalian. He tried to claim that, in such context, it means "any church that declares itself Catholic" which is ludicrous. Your doubling down makes you a double fail.

    Context always matter, son.


    Given the previous century to the one in which he actually lived, his overriding interest in producing a male heir was unlikely to be purely libidinous.
     
    Henry cared little for the future of England, given how his religious upheaval caused far more disruption and instability than even having a solid male heir would have given the nation.

    He knew his actions would lead to all sorts of invasions, now not just by rival powers, but by rival powers sanctioned and supported financially by the Pope. He also gave Scotland and Ireland instant support for their rebellions from Church coffers and pulpits. Henry thus knowingly doomed England to 150 years of bloodshed internally and 350 years of strife from his provinces, a situation no son could have resolved. In fact, it set up said son to be inherit a kingdom where everyone would be gunning to kill him or overthrow him----thus restarting the War of the Roses all over again on religious grounds (which, of course, is what Mary, Elizabeth, James, and Charles, etc. had to deal with in the multiple plots against them by about 1/3 to 1/2 the nation).

    And Henry didn't even have the decency to lay down some religious principles for his nation to follow in the absence of the Church. He just tossed out the old clergy and put his cronies in.

    Any amount of foresight by Henry would have let him know that his actions would cause 1000 times more problems for his kingdom than a hot wife, a quick boost to the bank account, and male heir would resolve. But he didn't bother thinking ahead at all---just with his crotch.

    It was a reckless, short-sighted, libido-driven madness in a quick grab for a young wife, the monastaries' fortunes, and a son. His later actions with all his wives--he went through them like water once he had the chance---shows he was just a lecherous coot. He could have designated a loyal male heir, or arranged a marriage for his daughters with an heir apparent, but no----not horny Henry.

    He burned down the house for the insurance money, forgetting all the heirlooms inside.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  115. anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Joe Schmoe
    Do the Chinese or other east Asians marry their cousins?

    According to hbdchick’s research they used to but not as much recently.

    The gist seems to be that cousin marriage is/was the global default human behavior but urbanization has been breaking it down *unless* the local culture actively maintains it.

    The exception being western Europe since c. 1000AD (give or take a few centuries depending on region).

    So effectively the church’s cousin ban was artificial mass urbanization.

    (imo)

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  116. @Anon
    New England Puritans are more inbred than you think. If you do genealogy, you'll find cousin marriage cropping up more often than you'd expect in colonial times. In the first few generations, you had a small number of settlers who had huge families who were all living in small villages, and this situation limited the potential marriage pool until the population began to increase via new waves of immigrants. I'm willing to bet all old New Englanders have a few cousin marriages in their backgrounds they have no clue about because the average person doesn't do genealogy. I've got several generations of cousin marriages in my own background from around the 1600s and 1700s of the sort that would make your eyeballs fall out and roll around if you looked at my ancestry chart. *Points hard at Nantucket*

    My mayflower descendant great grandmother’s four grandparents were ALL cousins.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  117. whorefinder says: • Website
    @Desiderius

    You could’ve just said, “Whoops, sorry, I was wrong!” but nooooo….now you’re just doubling down on the stupid, and trying to pretend “Catholic” in this context means something besides what it normally means.
     
    Now that makes two of you. Check the Apostle's Creed in many Protestant liturgies if you're unfamiliar with his usage of catholic.

    Your analysis of Henry might make sense if he had lived in the 20th Century. Given the previous century to the one in which he actually lived, his overriding interest in producing a male heir was unlikely to be purely libidinous.

    Now that makes two of you. Check the Apostle’s Creed in many Protestant liturgies if you’re unfamiliar with his usage of catholic.

    ROFL. In the context of a religious argument about 16th Century England, using the term “Catholic” refers to the Roman Catholic Church, not the Church of England/Anglicanism/Episcopalian. He tried to claim that, in such context, it means “any church that declares itself Catholic” which is ludicrous. Your doubling down makes you a double fail.

    Context always matter, son.

    Given the previous century to the one in which he actually lived, his overriding interest in producing a male heir was unlikely to be purely libidinous.

    Henry cared little for the future of England, given how his religious upheaval caused far more disruption and instability than even having a solid male heir would have given the nation.

    He knew his actions would lead to all sorts of invasions, now not just by rival powers, but by rival powers sanctioned and supported financially by the Pope. He also gave Scotland and Ireland instant support for their rebellions from Church coffers and pulpits. Henry thus knowingly doomed England to 150 years of bloodshed internally and 350 years of strife from his provinces, a situation no son could have resolved. In fact, it set up said son to be inherit a kingdom where everyone would be gunning to kill him or overthrow him—-thus restarting the War of the Roses all over again on religious grounds (which, of course, is what Mary, Elizabeth, James, and Charles, etc. had to deal with in the multiple plots against them by about 1/3 to 1/2 the nation).

    And Henry didn’t even have the decency to lay down some religious principles for his nation to follow in the absence of the Church. He just tossed out the old clergy and put his cronies in.

    Any amount of foresight by Henry would have let him know that his actions would cause 1000 times more problems for his kingdom than a hot wife, a quick boost to the bank account, and male heir would resolve. But he didn’t bother thinking ahead at all—just with his crotch.

    It was a reckless, short-sighted, libido-driven madness in a quick grab for a young wife, the monastaries’ fortunes, and a son. His later actions with all his wives–he went through them like water once he had the chance—shows he was just a lecherous coot. He could have designated a loyal male heir, or arranged a marriage for his daughters with an heir apparent, but no—-not horny Henry.

    He burned down the house for the insurance money, forgetting all the heirlooms inside.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  118. @anonymous
    Jane Austen's Mansfield Park is about cousin marriage among the minor British gentry:


    "...Fanny Price, at age 10, is sent from her family home to live with her uncle and aunt..at the estate... Her cousin Edmund finds her alone one day and helps her...

    ...Edmund slowly... comes to realise how important Fanny is to him. He declares his love for her, and they are married..."

     

    By the time of the Protestant Reformation the loss of kin groups was likely a fait accompli.

    A few might marry a cousin, but kin groups never returned in the Protestant countries (AFAIK).

    I wonder what will happen as huge numbers of people still in kin group mode move in. There must a lot of them by now in places left France. The Arab world is intensely tribal.

    AFAIK there is zero sign of it reappearing in the native population.

    Civilization would have to break down completely, I’m guessing.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  119. @Anonym
    Does ethnocentrism increase as cosanguinity increases? My guess is that it increases clannishness but not necessarily ethnocentrism.

    One other question this raises is Jewishness, cosanguinity and IQ. Stupid google won't link directly to an article by HBD Chick, but there is an article there on cosanguinity among Jews. Among Ashkenazi it is low, 1.4%, whereas Sephardim have around 9% I think. Maybe that's part of the IQ difference.

    Discussing cousin marriage and its main disadvantages (higher rate of genetic disease, might affect IQ…I’m not sure) is COMPLETELY TABOO.

    It’s very bad form to bring it up in comments (considered, guess what, racist. )

    Even this writer might get some pushback. The obvious implication is that most of the non Western world is doomed to remain corrupt. This is not new in HBD circles: HBD Chick has written on it extensively.

    I’ve never seen a discussion in, say, NYT.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  120. @Anonymous
    This came up in my fb feed from some liberal friend at Columbia.

    Excerpt:


    -HBD= "human biodiversity" which is the new euphemism that Nazis use for their "theory" that non-white races are biologically inferior (note: the author of this piece is kind of an asshole who thinks that some amount of scientific racism is okay but the article explains what it is p well http://www.dailykos.com/…/1178414/-Racism-has-a-new-name-HBD)
     
    http://archive.is/qeycG

    I don’t understand that. The writer obviously hasn’t read much about HBD.

    The higher IQs of Ashkenazi Jews and to a lesser extent, Chinese, are no secret.

    That’s a pretty weird type of white supremacism, admitting you’re not #1.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  121. Mark Green says: • Website
    @Anonym
    Does ethnocentrism increase as cosanguinity increases? My guess is that it increases clannishness but not necessarily ethnocentrism.

    One other question this raises is Jewishness, cosanguinity and IQ. Stupid google won't link directly to an article by HBD Chick, but there is an article there on cosanguinity among Jews. Among Ashkenazi it is low, 1.4%, whereas Sephardim have around 9% I think. Maybe that's part of the IQ difference.

    Incredibly, Einstein married his cousin.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  122. @Peripatetic commenter
    As VoxDay suggests, the Elites always rule. It is just a matter of which set of elites are ruling at any one time.

    I suspect that once the the notion of democracy became well enough known, the elites figured out how to hack it.

    Remember, its seems to have been Bismark who invented the notion of the Welfare State:

    https://infogalactic.com/info/Otto_von_Bismarck

    Bismarck wasn’t being humanitarian. He was just trying to prevent Marxism from taking over.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  123. Ecumenical Apostle’s Creed:

    I believe in God, the Father almighty,
    creator of heaven and earth.

    I believe in Jesus Christ, God’s only Son, our Lord,
    who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
    born of the Virgin Mary,
    suffered under Pontius Pilate,
    was crucified, died, and was buried;
    he descended to the dead.
    On the third day he rose again;
    he ascended into heaven,
    he is seated at the right hand of the Father,
    and he will come to judge the living and the dead.

    I believe in the Holy Spirit,
    the holy catholic Church,

    the communion of saints,
    the forgiveness of sins,
    the resurrection of the body,
    and the life everlasting. Amen.

    That “holy ( small c) catholic Church” line was stuck in there in 1988 for ecumenical, let’s not judgmental reasons. It’s not in the R.C. Apostle’s Creed.

    I have also seen and heard that line rendered in Presbyterian,Methodist, and Episcopalian church services as “one holy catholic church.”

    “( small c) catholic Church” — another sign of the decadence of respectable Protestantism.

    The Lutheran version is:


    I believe in the Holy Spirit,
    the holy Christian Church,

    the communion of saints,
    the forgiveness of sins,
    the resurrection of the body,
    and the life everlasting. Amen.

    That’s better.

    Read More
    • Replies: @James Kabala
    You have it all backwards. "Holy catholic church" is the original. The Lutherans changed it in relatively recent years to avoid confusion.

    It is certainly in the 1662 Book of Common Prayer, for example:

    https://irishanglican.wordpress.com/2015/04/01/the-apostles-creed-1662-book-of-common-prayer/
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  124. Venator says:
    @SPMoore8
    26 US states and all European countries allow first cousin marriage, so it is easy to infer that the practice is not that unusual. (Anything farther out than first cousin marriage is barely on the radar.)

    My own genealogical research indicates that it is also not uncommon among Americans historically, in upper middle, middle, and lower social classes (cousin intermarriage among European royalty extends that to all social classes.) None in my direct line, thank you so much.

    TBH the only problem I can see with it is possible genetic blowback, but now we're talking about diseases from inbreeding, ranging from hemophilia to Tay-Sachs and similar type things. But the people who carry those diseases are hardly dummies. I think the notion of inbreeding being associated with sub-optimal intelligence is way overrated. (I recall the Jewish guy who wrote the poem about UVA also referenced this "inbreeding" notion = stupid in his ca. 1940 poem.)

    Of course all of these limitations were established by custom long before modern genetics, which is after all only about a century old. I myself would not recommend cousin marriage for breeding purposes, but then there's more to marriage than having kids: just ask any LGBTQQIAA couple (I know, I'm leaving off half a dozen letters, I'm old and it's hard to learn new ones.)

    The only positive non-genetic association with out-marriage I can see is that it tends to weaken political interests defined by families versus the nation state, and as Steve predicted (and we know historically) such tight family formations have tended to retard national growth, not only in MENA but in parts of Europe. On the other hand, we still have phenomena like the Kennedy, Clinton and Bush "families" who somehow manage to remain intact and powerful even without cousin marriage.

    I think a certain measure of out-marriage makes for a more robust specimen; I know that everyone here harps on IQ but there are many other desirable traits, including body shape, height, health, disease resistance, strength, stamina, character, resolve, etc. etc. Basically, I'd trade 20 IQ points any day of the week if good health, focused character, and a long life (80-90) were on the table. Who wouldn't?

    “Basically, I’d trade 20 IQ points any day of the week if good health, focused character, and a long life (80-90) were on the table. Who wouldn’t?”

    I’d be an idiot to do/if I did that.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  125. ussr andy says:
    @Santoculto
    Re-read my comment if you want.

    "Democratic" societies as we know is a very recent phenomena in contemporary era. So we have centuries with less cousin marriages in such places like Scandinavia, Germania and Britain, and this magic causality simply don't happened, people become nuclearly-clannish (still clannish) and just very recently all the "universalistic traits" hbders claim to be a unique and demographically prevalent among NW Europeans started to be expressed, of course, after Jewish cultural revolution. Before 60's Europeans and diaspora were just like most of the non WEIRD people around the world.
    We are not talking about a unilinear causality "less cousin marriage cause universalism" because there are many other factors for example social conformity influencing people to conform to the new emperor clothes. We have changes in the socio-ideological structures for example "it's cool to be open minded" than the old "it's correct to be biased". Cultural epicenter from the religion to the ideology.

    The first modern European state was Portugal after Assis revolution...during the XIV century. Cousin marriage ban explain it? No.

    Of course the animosity among Europeans that was quite vivid in the beginning of the XX century was example of lack of clannishness of course. In the modern states the clan become the nation.

    it’s not just democracy or its sexually depraved post-war variant, liberal democracy. it’s the whole “getting along with strangers” and “not having to enumerate all your ancestors till you find a common one when meeting people so you know whether to trust them” thing (as they do in Somalia… or was it Polynesia)

    high consang rates sadly do inhibit the formation of… formal, contractual relations within a society.

    http://thosewhocansee.blogspot.de/2013/09/arabs-and-liberal-democracy-primer.html

    Read More
    • Replies: @Santoculto
    I'm not denying that lack of cousin marriages Don't cause different results but AGAIN... Only with the cultural revolution NW Europeans started to behave like that after centuries of little consanguinity rates. What's up?

    This theory is simply saying

    "Lack of consanguinity explain everything"

    No, seems, it doesn't explain.

    Supposed massified sexual "depravity" (some people being themselves and without pseudo gods mediating their sexual life) in the modernity is a myth. Most people still are monogamic, at least when they have girl or boyfriend.

    If most Swedish women have kids without be married it's not a sign of sexual "depravity".

    Less "traditional" people are in more evidence this days but how common or popularized this lgbt behavior are in contrast with the golden past is quite debatable.

    Because Europeans have explored other lands than any other human group they have in more contact with strangers and since a long time they have behaved not completely different than other groups.

    Do you believe "Jews" has been strongly responsible for current western problems?? Tell me what do you think?

    , @Santoculto
    Your link is very good but AGAIN, outbreeding alone is not the only factor behind current western suicidal behavior.

    And I don't get "most of Europeans specially within the Hainal lands are pathological altruistics".

    There is a part of this text you linked that it's talking exactly what I'm counter arguing.

    We have obviously (((other important factors))) to explain or to complete this puzzles.

    We know older white American generations tend to be overwhelming conservatives, seems similar to their British counterparts we see during the Brexit.

    Outbreeding maybe works like pre disposition with pre vulnerability but all the time we are also talking about intelligence/rational behavior versus non rational for example meritocracy versus "my family is the best-ocracy".

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  126. Svigor says:

    What do we know of why the Church banned consanguineous marriage?

    Read More
    • Replies: @anon
    People like St Augustine and Thomas Aquinas suggested it would reduce violence.

    I don't think it's known what the stated reason was (and that reason might not have been the actual reason).

    Maybe it was a financial scam that had unintended consequences.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  127. Dana says: • Website
    @Whiskey
    The "Southerners as sister/cousin molesters" stuff came out of New England disdain for Southerners and seems to date before the Civil War. Though it was really turbo-charged during the 1950s when Blacks became not only important Cold War pawns but totems of moral superiority of Puritan GoodWhites against "Redneck" BadWhites.

    You could argue that the War of the Roundheads against Cavaliers has never really ended. Nor will it ever end. It can't. That BadWhites exist and show a different way of living for White people is nothing less than an existential threat to GoodWhites who rely on complete and total thought conformity. It is not enough for mere compliance on outward matters of obedience. It is far more important to get thoughts in line; that's a feature not a bug of GoodWhite societies since the Puritans hanged old Quaker ladies for preaching the wrong sort of Gospel. Puritans see themselves as tiny sparks of light always threatened by the darkness.

    why arent you writing on your blog

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  128. @ussr andy
    it's not just democracy or its sexually depraved post-war variant, liberal democracy. it's the whole "getting along with strangers" and "not having to enumerate all your ancestors till you find a common one when meeting people so you know whether to trust them" thing (as they do in Somalia... or was it Polynesia)

    high consang rates sadly do inhibit the formation of... formal, contractual relations within a society.
    http://thosewhocansee.blogspot.de/2013/09/arabs-and-liberal-democracy-primer.html

    I’m not denying that lack of cousin marriages Don’t cause different results but AGAIN… Only with the cultural revolution NW Europeans started to behave like that after centuries of little consanguinity rates. What’s up?

    This theory is simply saying

    “Lack of consanguinity explain everything”

    No, seems, it doesn’t explain.

    Supposed massified sexual “depravity” (some people being themselves and without pseudo gods mediating their sexual life) in the modernity is a myth. Most people still are monogamic, at least when they have girl or boyfriend.

    If most Swedish women have kids without be married it’s not a sign of sexual “depravity”.

    Less “traditional” people are in more evidence this days but how common or popularized this lgbt behavior are in contrast with the golden past is quite debatable.

    Because Europeans have explored other lands than any other human group they have in more contact with strangers and since a long time they have behaved not completely different than other groups.

    Do you believe “Jews” has been strongly responsible for current western problems?? Tell me what do you think?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Santoculto
    Other possibility is that europeans have more time in contact with foreigners and learn superficially how to behave with them and this cultural knowledge has been passed, more or less, conjectures of course.

    A convergent changes,

    Cultural= more time in contact with foreigners, more accumulated/familiarized cultural knowledge,

    Biological = less cousin marriages, increasing of intelligence, etc

    Remember culture co-evolution...

    we are master to become accustomed with new things... becoming old things in the process.

    since the first time a european saw a black african man, to the point that he became accustomed to his figure, and even became curious about his people. In this case we are talking again of intellectual curiosity, aka, intelligence. The truly smarter, at least in relation to anthropological, psychological knowledge, will follow patterns and cultural knowledge to try to understand them.

    Ordinary people will accepted what the media tells them.

    BUT

    we know are spaniards and portugueses who en masse--mixed with native americans and enslaved blacks... and french to do the same thing.

    Lack of cousin marriage**

    Why spaniards, portugueses and less extent frenchmen have accepted many mixed people as part of their people, at least in the ''new world''**

    well, probably because

    - many castizos look like ''mediterranean europeans'',

    - same social class,

    - catholicism expansionism interests,

    - merchantilistic/capitalistic pragmatism


    NW europeans before 60's cultural jewish revolution were basically discrete ''white supremacists''.

    Lack of cousin marriage explain it**

    May explain many convergent but less prevalent or impactant changes at genetic levels.


    Remember, most of us are domesticated

    what it mean*

    It's mean most of us are suscetible at some extent to be [culturally] trained to behave like that and without little self-reflection.

    conjectures...
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  129. @ussr andy
    it's not just democracy or its sexually depraved post-war variant, liberal democracy. it's the whole "getting along with strangers" and "not having to enumerate all your ancestors till you find a common one when meeting people so you know whether to trust them" thing (as they do in Somalia... or was it Polynesia)

    high consang rates sadly do inhibit the formation of... formal, contractual relations within a society.
    http://thosewhocansee.blogspot.de/2013/09/arabs-and-liberal-democracy-primer.html

    Your link is very good but AGAIN, outbreeding alone is not the only factor behind current western suicidal behavior.

    And I don’t get “most of Europeans specially within the Hainal lands are pathological altruistics”.

    There is a part of this text you linked that it’s talking exactly what I’m counter arguing.

    We have obviously (((other important factors))) to explain or to complete this puzzles.

    We know older white American generations tend to be overwhelming conservatives, seems similar to their British counterparts we see during the Brexit.

    Outbreeding maybe works like pre disposition with pre vulnerability but all the time we are also talking about intelligence/rational behavior versus non rational for example meritocracy versus “my family is the best-ocracy”.

    Read More
    • Replies: @anon

    outbreeding alone is not the only factor behind current western suicidal behavior
     
    1) clearly there's a great deal of cultural manipulation as well

    2) it's not outbreeding alone - outbreeding creates a different selective environment which leads to genetic changes

    e.g. if you live surrounded by close cousins then you can have high levels of xenophobia and still have people to cooperate with - if you're in an environment with only 4th cousins you need to be more oprn if you want to find people to cooperate with

    "WEIRD subjects tend to be outliers on a range of measurable traits that do vary, including visual perception, sense of fairness, cooperation, spatial reasoning, and a host of other basic psychological traits. "

    https://neuroanthropology.net/2010/07/10/we-agree-its-weird-but-is-it-weird-enough/
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  130. PA Polka says:
    @Dan Hayes
    In several venues, Kevin MacDonald has previously favorably commented on the Roman Catholic Church's ban on consanguineous marriage. But then MacDonald is the ultimate Deplorable!

    An excellent article by Kevin MacDonald on the role of the RC Church in propagating monogamy and the nuclear family in Europe and its positive contribution to Western Civilization.

    http://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/2013/04/monogamy-and-the-uniqueness-of-european-civilization/

    Read More
    • Agree: Dan Hayes
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  131. Cpluskx says:

    Genetic data suggests some undemocratic Eastern European countries are less inbred than Scandinavian ones.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  132. Mokiki says:

    Maybe I missed it but I have seen no mention of Steve’s “Cousin Marriage Conundrum” article that appeared in “The American Conservative” in 2003.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  133. Olorin says:
    @dearieme
    Protestantism, especially in Germany, depended on support from princes, nobles and wealthy burghers. Might such people choose cousin marriages to accumulate property? That might have the opposite incentive structure from the Roman Church which was delighted to have families not accumulating property but leaving it to the church instead.

    So my suspicion is that Protestant churchmen often frowned on cousin marriages but didn't ban them.

    Mind you, what about the Habsburgs? The usual Roman Catholic exemption for anyone important enough?

    I conjecture that there would be a rise in cousin marriages among royalty when the number of German statelets was reduced from Napoleon onwards, because the number of suitable royal marriage candidates decreased. Frinstance Queen Victoria.

    Might such people choose cousin marriages to accumulate property? That might have the opposite incentive structure from the Roman Church which was delighted to have families not accumulating property but leaving it to the church instead.

    This is how I’ve leaned in my general readings on the topic, dearie.

    Not just leaving property to the church but actively interfering in people’s familial relationships for institutional gain. Does any other religion require its adherents to call strangers by biological titles like “father” and recognize their authority over one’s actual father’s?

    Cousin marriages imply a closeness and orchestration of resources and alliances between siblings very different from that in a religious regime where strangers are called “brother” and “sister.”

    The regulation of the reproductive impulse has been part of all human societies, by instinct or regulation. Some societies and regimes have been far more assertive in this…and some have been more geared to exploit the impulse for systematic gain.

    It calls to my mind how today’s Christian denoms try to confuse people about the biological fact of race and demonize reproductive impulses to be drawn to similar people. This is done with massive programs of propaganda and punishment around universalism and forced race-mixing.

    Who is making billions off of that? Who profits? Who pays?

    A good source on this IME is the chapter on “Marriage” in Geoffrey Nathan’s The Family in Late Antiquity: The Rise of Christianity and the Endurance of Tradition.

    https://www.amazon.com/Family-Late-Antiquity-Christianity-Endurance/dp/041564240X

    Among his conclusions that I agree with is that it is an error to consider all correlations as causal where changes in late antiquity are related to Christianity.

    This is an error I commonly see in HBD circles, including HBDChick and Kevin MacDonald.

    Imagine if some future thinkers looked back to any possible upcoming Trumpian improvements in the West…then attributed them to the later “Great Society” propaganda about race mixing/universalism…instead of to a conscious Deplorable turnaround/rejection of racial breeding habits proven to result in regression to a lower population mean for higher-mean populations. And who is going to compete more effectively with the churches for power–lower- or higher-mean populations?

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  134. anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Svigor
    What do we know of why the Church banned consanguineous marriage?

    People like St Augustine and Thomas Aquinas suggested it would reduce violence.

    I don’t think it’s known what the stated reason was (and that reason might not have been the actual reason).

    Maybe it was a financial scam that had unintended consequences.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  135. anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Santoculto
    Your link is very good but AGAIN, outbreeding alone is not the only factor behind current western suicidal behavior.

    And I don't get "most of Europeans specially within the Hainal lands are pathological altruistics".

    There is a part of this text you linked that it's talking exactly what I'm counter arguing.

    We have obviously (((other important factors))) to explain or to complete this puzzles.

    We know older white American generations tend to be overwhelming conservatives, seems similar to their British counterparts we see during the Brexit.

    Outbreeding maybe works like pre disposition with pre vulnerability but all the time we are also talking about intelligence/rational behavior versus non rational for example meritocracy versus "my family is the best-ocracy".

    outbreeding alone is not the only factor behind current western suicidal behavior

    1) clearly there’s a great deal of cultural manipulation as well

    2) it’s not outbreeding alone – outbreeding creates a different selective environment which leads to genetic changes

    e.g. if you live surrounded by close cousins then you can have high levels of xenophobia and still have people to cooperate with – if you’re in an environment with only 4th cousins you need to be more oprn if you want to find people to cooperate with

    “WEIRD subjects tend to be outliers on a range of measurable traits that do vary, including visual perception, sense of fairness, cooperation, spatial reasoning, and a host of other basic psychological traits. ”

    https://neuroanthropology.net/2010/07/10/we-agree-its-weird-but-is-it-weird-enough/

    Read More
    • Replies: @Santoculto
    1) clearly there’s a great deal of cultural manipulation as well

    The next stage of european evolution would be the objective morality, but some clever people notice it before and decided to act first.

    Catholicism,
    lutheranism,

    ...

    leftism..

    humanism...

    Behavior is a set of potential frequencies,

    More europeans are free thinkers, but be a free thinker don't make you instantaneously a rational thinker, and it doesn't mean you will not internalize popular ideas,

    Avg or neurotypical people tend to be quite conformist and natural liars, if something is advantageous for them so many them will be likely to internalize this factoids as if were a facts, just because the possibility to have a personal advantage,

    Many them, so many them no have a accurate sense of reality, and worst, because they no have idea that they act at subconscious way, most part of time,

    most people tend to act at subconscious way and no make idea or no make curiosity and will to understand and control it (a wise people to do).

    In the past so many europeans believed in the christianism nonsense, as well we have mohamedians believing in their specific nonsense today, culturalized schyzotipia.

    So many people are not introspective, they live as if almost, if not, all of their behavior are right, they no have nor a introspective mind, neither a scientific/inquiring mind.

    Religion, ideology, culture= basically the same thing, the same grotesque distortions of the reality with different names.

    1) clearly there’s a great deal of cultural manipulation as well

    2) it’s not outbreeding alone – outbreeding creates a different selective environment which leads to genetic changes
     
    Yes what i said, basically.

    e.g. if you live surrounded by close cousins then you can have high levels of xenophobia and still have people to cooperate with – if you’re in an environment with only 4th cousins you need to be more oprn if you want to find people to cooperate with
     
    I believe lack of cousin marriage may create a ''quimera'' people, aka, literal individuals. This in part explain the european genius, ''higher prevalence'', of course, comparatively speaking.

    But again, without jewish intervention this pre-dispositions would not happen so abruptly.

    hastiness is the enemy of perfection.

    Many leftists appear to be more mutant than rightist conservatives. Recently, i read openess is correlated with bipolar and schizophrenia spectrum,

    this make sense.

    People who are too much abstractized and little concrete in their thoughts...

    Many leftists today are the mattoids of the XIX century,

    - generally people with higher and assymmetric intelligence,

    - little moral discerniment,

    - or too much altruistic,

    - able to construct sophisticately bizarre theories,

    - many creative geniuses, specially artistic ones, are mattoids,

    - they are borderline to the psychosis, but they tend to have greater health and don't show any salient mental issues...
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  136. anon says: • Disclaimer

    2) it’s not outbreeding alone – outbreeding creates a different selective environment which leads to genetic changes

    should be “the theory is it’s not outbreeding alone…”

    anyway

    #

    group of medieval bishops sitting round drinking tea and discussing how expensive cathedrals are:

    priest1: i was reading Augustine the other day – he has a theory that not marrying close cousins would lead to less violence

    priest2: “yeah right”

    priest3: “it would never work – all the rich people marry their close cousins”

    priest1: “hmm”

    priest2: “hmm”

    priest3: “are you thinking what i’m thinking?”

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Also, "If our parishioners are less clannish, they're more likely to leave bequests to the Church rather than wholly to their relatives, especially if they die without close heirs."
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  137. @anon

    2) it’s not outbreeding alone – outbreeding creates a different selective environment which leads to genetic changes
     
    should be "the theory is it's not outbreeding alone..."

    anyway

    #

    group of medieval bishops sitting round drinking tea and discussing how expensive cathedrals are:

    priest1: i was reading Augustine the other day - he has a theory that not marrying close cousins would lead to less violence

    priest2: "yeah right"

    priest3: "it would never work - all the rich people marry their close cousins"

    priest1: "hmm"

    priest2: "hmm"

    priest3: "are you thinking what i'm thinking?"

    Also, “If our parishioners are less clannish, they’re more likely to leave bequests to the Church rather than wholly to their relatives, especially if they die without close heirs.”

    Read More
    • Replies: @anon
    yes, i think it's quite possible they got the idea from Augustine or Aquinas but the actual decision had more worldly motives

    (although anyone religious can just shrug and say God moves in mysterious ways..)
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  138. anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Steve Sailer
    Also, "If our parishioners are less clannish, they're more likely to leave bequests to the Church rather than wholly to their relatives, especially if they die without close heirs."

    yes, i think it’s quite possible they got the idea from Augustine or Aquinas but the actual decision had more worldly motives

    (although anyone religious can just shrug and say God moves in mysterious ways..)

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  139. @David Davenport
    Ecumenical Apostle's Creed:

    I believe in God, the Father almighty,
    creator of heaven and earth.

    I believe in Jesus Christ, God's only Son, our Lord,
    who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
    born of the Virgin Mary,
    suffered under Pontius Pilate,
    was crucified, died, and was buried;
    he descended to the dead.
    On the third day he rose again;
    he ascended into heaven,
    he is seated at the right hand of the Father,
    and he will come to judge the living and the dead.

    I believe in the Holy Spirit,
    the holy catholic Church,

    the communion of saints,
    the forgiveness of sins,
    the resurrection of the body,
    and the life everlasting. Amen.


    That "holy ( small c) catholic Church" line was stuck in there in 1988 for ecumenical, let's not judgmental reasons. It's not in the R.C. Apostle's Creed.

    I have also seen and heard that line rendered in Presbyterian,Methodist, and Episcopalian church services as "one holy catholic church."

    "( small c) catholic Church" -- another sign of the decadence of respectable Protestantism.


    The Lutheran version is:

    ...
    I believe in the Holy Spirit,
    the holy Christian Church,

    the communion of saints,
    the forgiveness of sins,
    the resurrection of the body,
    and the life everlasting. Amen.


    That's better.

    You have it all backwards. “Holy catholic church” is the original. The Lutherans changed it in relatively recent years to avoid confusion.

    It is certainly in the 1662 Book of Common Prayer, for example:

    https://irishanglican.wordpress.com/2015/04/01/the-apostles-creed-1662-book-of-common-prayer/

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  140. @TelfoedJohn
    Ironically, the playground of the Democrat elite - Martha's Vineyard - has so much inbreeding that there is widespread heritary deafness:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martha%27s_Vineyard_Sign_Language

    Of course that was long before any rich mainlanders summered there.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  141. @whorefinder

    So he kept his church catholic, but with himself as Big Man rather than the pope, and granted himself an annulment.
     
    lmao. You could've just said, "Whoops, sorry, I was wrong!" but nooooo....now you're just doubling down on the stupid, and trying to pretend "Catholic" in this context means something besides what it normally means.

    In other words, a typical leftist: double down, and pretend definitions changed.

    You're just wrong, stupid.

    His ambition was to have an English Catholic Church that would replace the Roman Catholic one. But many of his subjects were getting interested in Lutheranism.
     
    Henry VIII was interested in having a young hot wife bear him a son. He had no pretenses beyond that, having abandoned his faith. He had no ambitions towards his own Church or Lutheranism, hence why England fell into a century and half of religious wars and upheavals after Henry died---because he hadn't set up any religious ideology, because he wasn't interested.

    For crying out loud, even the most ardent Anglican/Episcopalian recognizes that Henry's motives were purely selfish and had no higher thought than what was in his pants and having a boy. Give it up, son, you look the fool.

    I think you two actually are saying much the same thing but don’t realize it.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  142. CanRev says:
    @jtgw
    The tables of affinity in the BCP do not include cousins. This is presumably because Leviticus does not forbid cousin marriage. In fact, I don't think it even forbids uncle-niece marriage, though the Anglican Church certainly did. Since the Reformation was about Sola Scriptura, it made sense that they would abandon the very strict rules on consanguineous marriage that the Catholic Church promulgated, which were based in unwritten tradition rather than Scripture.

    I think it's probably true that, despite the Reformation's relaxation of the rules, most northern European Protestants did not take advantage of the relaxation to marry their cousins (just as many southern Europeans ignored the Church's rules before).

    My only point was to remind us that marriages outside the bounds of consanguinity were still an issue among protestants.

    As has been pointed out this ban does not extend to cousins. However, the protestant understanding of “acceptable” marriages has *more or less* followed the charts set out by our Anglican forefathers.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  143. Boris N says:

    The case when Russia again ruins a good theory. The Russian Church has been always very forbidding on cousin or close kin marriages, but how many would call Russia democratic?

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  144. @anon

    outbreeding alone is not the only factor behind current western suicidal behavior
     
    1) clearly there's a great deal of cultural manipulation as well

    2) it's not outbreeding alone - outbreeding creates a different selective environment which leads to genetic changes

    e.g. if you live surrounded by close cousins then you can have high levels of xenophobia and still have people to cooperate with - if you're in an environment with only 4th cousins you need to be more oprn if you want to find people to cooperate with

    "WEIRD subjects tend to be outliers on a range of measurable traits that do vary, including visual perception, sense of fairness, cooperation, spatial reasoning, and a host of other basic psychological traits. "

    https://neuroanthropology.net/2010/07/10/we-agree-its-weird-but-is-it-weird-enough/

    1) clearly there’s a great deal of cultural manipulation as well

    The next stage of european evolution would be the objective morality, but some clever people notice it before and decided to act first.

    Catholicism,
    lutheranism,

    leftism..

    humanism…

    Behavior is a set of potential frequencies,

    More europeans are free thinkers, but be a free thinker don’t make you instantaneously a rational thinker, and it doesn’t mean you will not internalize popular ideas,

    Avg or neurotypical people tend to be quite conformist and natural liars, if something is advantageous for them so many them will be likely to internalize this factoids as if were a facts, just because the possibility to have a personal advantage,

    Many them, so many them no have a accurate sense of reality, and worst, because they no have idea that they act at subconscious way, most part of time,

    most people tend to act at subconscious way and no make idea or no make curiosity and will to understand and control it (a wise people to do).

    In the past so many europeans believed in the christianism nonsense, as well we have mohamedians believing in their specific nonsense today, culturalized schyzotipia.

    So many people are not introspective, they live as if almost, if not, all of their behavior are right, they no have nor a introspective mind, neither a scientific/inquiring mind.

    Religion, ideology, culture= basically the same thing, the same grotesque distortions of the reality with different names.

    1) clearly there’s a great deal of cultural manipulation as well

    2) it’s not outbreeding alone – outbreeding creates a different selective environment which leads to genetic changes

    Yes what i said, basically.

    e.g. if you live surrounded by close cousins then you can have high levels of xenophobia and still have people to cooperate with – if you’re in an environment with only 4th cousins you need to be more oprn if you want to find people to cooperate with

    I believe lack of cousin marriage may create a ”quimera” people, aka, literal individuals. This in part explain the european genius, ”higher prevalence”, of course, comparatively speaking.

    But again, without jewish intervention this pre-dispositions would not happen so abruptly.

    hastiness is the enemy of perfection.

    Many leftists appear to be more mutant than rightist conservatives. Recently, i read openess is correlated with bipolar and schizophrenia spectrum,

    this make sense.

    People who are too much abstractized and little concrete in their thoughts…

    Many leftists today are the mattoids of the XIX century,

    - generally people with higher and assymmetric intelligence,

    - little moral discerniment,

    - or too much altruistic,

    - able to construct sophisticately bizarre theories,

    - many creative geniuses, specially artistic ones, are mattoids,

    - they are borderline to the psychosis, but they tend to have greater health and don’t show any salient mental issues…

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  145. @Santoculto
    I'm not denying that lack of cousin marriages Don't cause different results but AGAIN... Only with the cultural revolution NW Europeans started to behave like that after centuries of little consanguinity rates. What's up?

    This theory is simply saying

    "Lack of consanguinity explain everything"

    No, seems, it doesn't explain.

    Supposed massified sexual "depravity" (some people being themselves and without pseudo gods mediating their sexual life) in the modernity is a myth. Most people still are monogamic, at least when they have girl or boyfriend.

    If most Swedish women have kids without be married it's not a sign of sexual "depravity".

    Less "traditional" people are in more evidence this days but how common or popularized this lgbt behavior are in contrast with the golden past is quite debatable.

    Because Europeans have explored other lands than any other human group they have in more contact with strangers and since a long time they have behaved not completely different than other groups.

    Do you believe "Jews" has been strongly responsible for current western problems?? Tell me what do you think?

    Other possibility is that europeans have more time in contact with foreigners and learn superficially how to behave with them and this cultural knowledge has been passed, more or less, conjectures of course.

    A convergent changes,

    Cultural= more time in contact with foreigners, more accumulated/familiarized cultural knowledge,

    Biological = less cousin marriages, increasing of intelligence, etc

    Remember culture co-evolution…

    we are master to become accustomed with new things… becoming old things in the process.

    since the first time a european saw a black african man, to the point that he became accustomed to his figure, and even became curious about his people. In this case we are talking again of intellectual curiosity, aka, intelligence. The truly smarter, at least in relation to anthropological, psychological knowledge, will follow patterns and cultural knowledge to try to understand them.

    Ordinary people will accepted what the media tells them.

    BUT

    we know are spaniards and portugueses who en masse–mixed with native americans and enslaved blacks… and french to do the same thing.

    Lack of cousin marriage**

    Why spaniards, portugueses and less extent frenchmen have accepted many mixed people as part of their people, at least in the ”new world”**

    well, probably because

    - many castizos look like ”mediterranean europeans”,

    - same social class,

    - catholicism expansionism interests,

    - merchantilistic/capitalistic pragmatism

    NW europeans before 60′s cultural jewish revolution were basically discrete ”white supremacists”.

    Lack of cousin marriage explain it**

    May explain many convergent but less prevalent or impactant changes at genetic levels.

    Remember, most of us are domesticated

    what it mean*

    It’s mean most of us are suscetible at some extent to be [culturally] trained to behave like that and without little self-reflection.

    conjectures…

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  146. Anon says: • Disclaimer

    First cousin marriage is pretty ewwwww, but maybe second cousin marriage wouldn’t have been so bad in fostering a sense of community.

    Also, even without cousin marriage, a people can become sort of funny and weird.
    Consider the increasing insipidity of the American Deb Society.
    And look at Dubya and Jeb. Jeb is especially a goofy guy. I mean what kind of a rich white privileged guy born with silver spoon would marry a Mexican midget?
    And he must be pretty stupid cuz he got trolled so bad by those around him. I’m positive that his adviser was playing tricks on him. He was told to stand on his tiptoes next to other candidates when he was the tallest guy on stage. I mean that looks so dumb. When the tallest guy has to make himself taller, it just looks so insecure and pathetic. And then giving away miniature turtles to kids and promoting himself as ‘slow and steady’ candidate. The guy who was advising him was surely trolling him, but Jeb didn’t get it. What a dodo.

    [MORE]

    And then, consider the likes of Dan Quayle. With morons like that, who needs cousin marriage? It seems Wasps, even without cousin marriage, have been churning out total morons for its political and elite class. Or Boehner the cry baby. The only thing he should have been crying over is his daughter’s choice of groom. And Grover-faced(Sesama Street) Paul Ryan. (Neo-cons are getting pretty weird too with each new de-generation.)

    While laws against cousin marriage may have led to Rise of the West, the resultant individualism and atomization seem to be leading to the downfall.

    In the past, there was at least nationalism to hold the people together. But with demise of nationalism, there is now only individualism and atomization that favor globalization. Lacking national identity, Europeans might still have some strong identity with clan identity. But both clan identity and national identity are gone. There is only individual identity and ideological affinity.

    Now, suppression of clan-ism and rise of individualism are good IF they make way for nationalism and rule-of-law that allow larger numbers of people to get along in peace and stability. But if nationalism and rule-of-law are suppressed or violated in the New Order, lack of clan-ism is worse than clan-ism because it becomes every man for himself, and such atomization means tyranny of globalist oligarchs.

    In the US, suppression of clan-ism and the rise of individualism were once associated with national identity, white racial identity, and rule of law. And the system worked in creating the magnificent country.

    But now, white identity is suppressed. Nationalism was pressured to surrender to globalism. And Rule of Law has been violated by endless demands for affirmative action, PC, and illegal invasion. The West cannot even resist homomania and total pornification of culture where even kids in school are taught to praise and worship homo ‘sexual’ practices.
    When this is the real reality, it’s better to have clan-ism than individualism.

    It’s like this. Hatcoys vs McFields would be problematic cuz it’d be clan fighting clan. It’d be better to have both sides put aside clan loyalties and join together as citizens of the nation bound by rule of law. But for that to work, there must be a strong sense of nation with common culture and civic duty and rule of law.
    However, if the common idea of nationhood and rule of law are undermined, it’s better to have clan-ism than mere individualism. Globalism means less security, less border control, less economic stability, and less rule of law. That being the case, the only defense you have left is the clan.

    Better to be part of a nation than part of a clan, but better to be part of a clan than lost in the globo-plan. Being part of a clan offers some sure identity and security. In contrast, globo-man is a nothing. And his nation offers him no security, no honor, no protection.
    It’s not good to f*** your cousin but better to f*** your cousin than be f***ed by Soros.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  147. @StanB1755
    What I find really interesting is that over 10 of the States in the United States of America allow first cousins to marry including having sexual relations. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States_by_state for more information. Some of the States do impose restrictions.

    For example it is perfectly legal to marry your first cousin in the State of California.

    Other States make it a criminal offense to have sex with your first cousin.

    What I find really interesting is that over 10 of the States in the United States of America allow first cousins to marry including having sexual relations.

    What is interesting about that? Marriage implies sexual relations, surely?

    For example it is perfectly legal to marry your first cousin in the State of California.

    I think you have just explained something important about California!

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  148. […] Minskat kusinäktenskap gav bättre institutionell kvalitet och mer demokrati i medeltida Europa […]

    Read More

Comments are closed.

Subscribe to All Steve Sailer Comments via RSS
PastClassics
The “war hero” candidate buried information about POWs left behind in Vietnam.
What Was John McCain's True Wartime Record in Vietnam?
The evidence is clear — but often ignored
Are elite university admissions based on meritocracy and diversity as claimed?
A simple remedy for income stagnation