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From an American Association of University Women press release:

Analysis: Women Hold Two-Thirds of Country’s $1.4-Trillion Student Debt

May 21, 2018

Amy Becker, [email protected]

Women Hold Majority of College Debt — and Take Longer to Pay It Off

WASHINGTON – A new update to the American Association of University Women (AAUW) report, Deeper in Debt: Women and Student Loans, finds that women hold almost two-thirds ($890 billion) of the country’s $1.4-trillion student debt while men hold $490 billion. The student loan gender gap has nearly doubled in the past four years, and women now graduate with an average of $2,700 more debt than men when earning a bachelor’s degree.

The newly-released data from the 2015-16 National Postsecondary Student Aid Study also reveal that:

Women comprise 56 percent of enrolled college students, but hold 65 percent of outstanding student loan debt;

71 percent of women have student loan debt at bachelor’s graduation compared to 66 percent of men; and
Black women graduate with the most debt – at $30,400 – compared to $22,000 for white women and $19,500 for white men….

The press release doesn’t give a figure for black men.

… Women with college degrees who work full time make, on average, 26 percent less than their male peers, which leaves women with less income to devote to debt repayment. Compared to white men with bachelor’s degrees, black and Hispanic women with bachelor’s degrees make 37 percent and 34 percent less (respectively) and struggle to repay their loans as a result.

Student debt, especially student debt a number of years down the road at a point when some people have paid off their debts and some haven’t, tends to correlate with having high self-esteem and low visual-spatial-math IQ.

From another AAUW press release:

For-Profit Institutions: An Expensive Alternative

Though they enroll a relatively small portion of American college students, for-profit institutions disproportionately enroll women, people of color, low-income students, and members and former members of the U.S. military. For-profit institutions use advertising and high-pressure recruitment tactics to woo students and their student aid and loan money, but debt outcomes for students at these institutions are particularly dismal. Even after account­ing for student demographics, for-profit institutions have low completion rates and high default rates — a matter of serious concern for student loan borrowers, researchers, and policymakers.

I know a black woman of limited intelligence who ran up high 5 figure debts to a for-profit college that kept telling her that, after a few more expensive courses from them, she was going to make a good living in a cognitively demanding technical field.

For-profit colleges largely exist to exploit financially people with two-digit IQs by appealing to our society’s dominant Blank Slate anti-IQ ideology. In contrast, not-for-profit colleges such as Harvard exist to facilitate IQ exclusiveness among those with high 3-digit IQs.

My impression of for-profit colleges is that’s the basic business model: be IQ-inclusive in order to exploit (somewhat) subsidized loans. In contrast, the basic business model of not-for-profit colleges is to be IQ-exclusive. It’s a pretty funny paradox, but one reason we don’t have a good debate over for-profit colleges is because nobody, left or right, wants to be terribly honest about how either for-profit or not-for-profit colleges work.

 
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  1. I know a black woman of limited intelligence who ran up high 5 figure debts to a for-profit college that kept telling her that, after a few more expensive courses from them, she was going to make a good living in a cognitively demanding technical field.

    There’s a funny reply here, but I’m damned if I can think of it.

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  2. JA says:

    The vast majority of colleges and universities in the U.S. practice actual or virtual open enrollment.

    For-profit colleges and most non-profit colleges are identical expect for the way their accounts are tabulated. It’s the same scam perpetrated on the same low-IQ students funded by the same federal programs.

    It’s acceptable in Blue America to criticize the small number of for-profit colleges, but it is still taboo to criticize non-profit colleges for the same actions.

    Because for-profit is Bad and non-profit is Good.

    Read More
    • Agree: Triumph104
    • Replies: @Grumpy
    This is true.

    Mr. Sailer has a too-high opinion of non-profit colleges. A few can practice real exclusivity, but most colleges would cease to exist if they relied on that model.

    Typical graduation rates at regional public universities hover around 50 percent, but students pay for attending whether they graduate or not.

    The whole higher education establishment depends on the current student-debt model. Ridiculing for-profit colleges is a way of redirecting attention from the giant glass house in which almost all academics now live.
    , @Thea
    Agreed.

    Our local public university seeks to have high diversity. Lots of them are low income. They are encouraged to take out loans then few people graduate. They drop out with much debt and the university congratulates itself on diversity.

    I chose to view the Mizzou and other campus meltdowns as a means to keep federal loan funds flowing.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  3. Lugash says:

    Immigration was the #1 wedge issue. Student debt is probably #2, if Trump’s smart he’ll do something like taxing federal student loan guarrantees at 120%.

    Read More
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  4. Wish I could generate a fraction of the profits those not-for-profit institutions and their employees do.

    Seems like the doing well is outweighing the doing good these days.

    Read More
    • LOL: Rosie
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  5. peterike says:

    Trump should eliminate all Federal student debt across the board. Just zero it out. It’s only money. It would be a brilliant political stroke, and he could tie it to a speech saying “our colleges today are failing our students and scamming them by the thousands.”

    Then, at the same time, he should close all future lending to colleges and end student loans and all Federal aid to education.

    Make the people whole. Destroy the beast.

    Read More
    • Replies: @D. K.
    . . . President Trump should do this unilaterally right after he unilaterally taxes foreign remittances and uses the proceeds to build The Wall, or right before he unilaterally taxes foreign remittances and uses the proceeds to build The Wall?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  6. Nathan says:

    Having parents from the right side of the political spectrum, I can tell you that part of the problem with nobody being honest about how college works is partially attributable to a genuine misunderstanding of how college works. Conservative boomers tend to believe that all colleges work the way for-profit colleges work: selling you a piece of paper of questionable value in exchange for money. You can usually spot people like this making comments about trade school, or apprenticeships, or not needing a college degree to be smart and work hard. While all that’s true, it has nothing to do with the fact that at a not-for-profit college (a real college) you the student are the product, and the school itself is just a way for you to be mutually branded and marketed with your social and economic cohort. This attitude seems to immunize conservative people from the idea that for-profit colleges, trade schools, and unpaid apprenticeships aren’t great at best and are frequently scams- really shabby scams, in a few instances I’m aware of. They seem to think that ALL colleges and higher education in general are a scam, and taking sides between one form or another just demonstrates a lack of sophistication.

    The left seems to think that for-profit colleges are distasteful because, well, they make money, and that’s just bad form.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jus' Sayin'...
    Anyone who is aware of the grotesquely inflated salaries and perks of administrators and senior faculty (particularly faculty in ____-studies programs, the soft social sciences, and what were once called "the liberal arts") within the nation's "non-profit" colleges and universities is an idiot if he does not realize that all these institutions are a gigantic scam and the American public are their rubes. So-called loans, scholarships, grants, and whatever are a pass-through of tax-payer-guaranteed money into the coffers of these institutions. Most of the money then is funneled into the pockets of the drones and parasites who man these "educational" establishments. That so many of those enriching themselves in this way are worse than useless and have gotten where they are through repeated applications of affirmative action only adds to the insult and injury.
    , @Desiderius
    “ They seem to think that ALL colleges and higher education in general are a scam, and taking sides between one form or another just demonstrates a lack of sophistication.“

    They’re not entirely mistaken.
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  7. I’ll bet it would be enlightening to compare these debt and earning differentials between men and women broken down by fields of study. I’m guessing that there is a much higher percentage of men with STEM degrees and many more women with “studies” degrees.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Half Canadian
    I work at an open-enrollment school (institutional research), and this is something that I've wanted to do.
    Most defaults occur among students who don't graduate, but I haven't seen a breakdown by CIP code.
    In fact, according to our director of financial aid, it's illegal to do this type of research on financial aid data.
    Personally, I'm skeptical, but haven't been motivated enough to find out if he's being honest.
    , @DFH
    http://www.randalolson.com/wp-content/uploads/iq-by-college-major-gender.png

    http://www.randalolson.com/wp-content/uploads/us-college-majors-income-vs-gender-ratio-ann.png
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  8. George says:

    “I know a black woman of limited intelligence who ran up high 5 figure debts to a for-profit college that kept telling her that, after a few more expensive courses from them, she was going to make a good living in a cognitively demanding technical field.”

    In any other business, the consumer could declare bankruptcy.

    According to the constitution:
    “To establish a uniform rule of naturalization, and uniform laws on the subject of bankruptcies throughout the United States;”

    Apparently, this can be interpreted as it is constitutional that uniformly throughout the USA, under any circumstances, bankruptcy is impossible.

    In practice what the debt will mean is wage garnishment and a reduction in Social Security payments. Those payments will be redirected to the holder of the debt, either Uncle Sam or maybe some investor neither of which did any due diligence in agreeing to loan her money.

    Read More
    • Agree: Seamus Padraig
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  9. D. K. says:
    @peterike
    Trump should eliminate all Federal student debt across the board. Just zero it out. It's only money. It would be a brilliant political stroke, and he could tie it to a speech saying "our colleges today are failing our students and scamming them by the thousands."

    Then, at the same time, he should close all future lending to colleges and end student loans and all Federal aid to education.

    Make the people whole. Destroy the beast.

    . . . President Trump should do this unilaterally right after he unilaterally taxes foreign remittances and uses the proceeds to build The Wall, or right before he unilaterally taxes foreign remittances and uses the proceeds to build The Wall?

    Read More
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  10. @Hank Archer
    I'll bet it would be enlightening to compare these debt and earning differentials between men and women broken down by fields of study. I'm guessing that there is a much higher percentage of men with STEM degrees and many more women with "studies" degrees.

    I work at an open-enrollment school (institutional research), and this is something that I’ve wanted to do.
    Most defaults occur among students who don’t graduate, but I haven’t seen a breakdown by CIP code.
    In fact, according to our director of financial aid, it’s illegal to do this type of research on financial aid data.
    Personally, I’m skeptical, but haven’t been motivated enough to find out if he’s being honest.

    Read More
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  11. Barnard says:

    The only serious difference I can see is that the for profit colleges tend to have a higher percentage of their students be lower quality to begin with. Both types of schools knowingly enroll students that are very unlikely to graduate and also enroll students who are unlikely to get a job that will give them a good chance of paying off their students loans on a reasonable repayment schedule.

    Liberals worked hard during the Obama years to demonize the for profit schools and praise the non profits. Any sort of fix to the student loan problem has to involve financial pain for the non profits as well. One idea would be to cap the amount that can be borrowed for any one student at 33-40% of the cost of attendance. This would put pressure on the school to reign in the cost of attendance. Only allowing students to borrow for tuition and not for living expenses would also put pressure on the schools.

    Read More
    • Agree: Jim Don Bob
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  12. Harvard’s endowment fund is over $36 billion, not bad for a “non-profit” educational institution.

    Read More
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  13. Grumpy says:
    @JA
    The vast majority of colleges and universities in the U.S. practice actual or virtual open enrollment.

    For-profit colleges and most non-profit colleges are identical expect for the way their accounts are tabulated. It's the same scam perpetrated on the same low-IQ students funded by the same federal programs.

    It's acceptable in Blue America to criticize the small number of for-profit colleges, but it is still taboo to criticize non-profit colleges for the same actions.

    Because for-profit is Bad and non-profit is Good.

    This is true.

    Mr. Sailer has a too-high opinion of non-profit colleges. A few can practice real exclusivity, but most colleges would cease to exist if they relied on that model.

    Typical graduation rates at regional public universities hover around 50 percent, but students pay for attending whether they graduate or not.

    The whole higher education establishment depends on the current student-debt model. Ridiculing for-profit colleges is a way of redirecting attention from the giant glass house in which almost all academics now live.

    Read More
    • Replies: @TomSchmidt
    Ridiculing for-profit colleges is a way of redirecting attention from the giant glass house in which almost all academics now live.

    Just wanted to read it again.
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  14. @Nathan
    Having parents from the right side of the political spectrum, I can tell you that part of the problem with nobody being honest about how college works is partially attributable to a genuine misunderstanding of how college works. Conservative boomers tend to believe that all colleges work the way for-profit colleges work: selling you a piece of paper of questionable value in exchange for money. You can usually spot people like this making comments about trade school, or apprenticeships, or not needing a college degree to be smart and work hard. While all that's true, it has nothing to do with the fact that at a not-for-profit college (a real college) you the student are the product, and the school itself is just a way for you to be mutually branded and marketed with your social and economic cohort. This attitude seems to immunize conservative people from the idea that for-profit colleges, trade schools, and unpaid apprenticeships aren't great at best and are frequently scams- really shabby scams, in a few instances I'm aware of. They seem to think that ALL colleges and higher education in general are a scam, and taking sides between one form or another just demonstrates a lack of sophistication.

    The left seems to think that for-profit colleges are distasteful because, well, they make money, and that's just bad form.

    Anyone who is aware of the grotesquely inflated salaries and perks of administrators and senior faculty (particularly faculty in ____-studies programs, the soft social sciences, and what were once called “the liberal arts”) within the nation’s “non-profit” colleges and universities is an idiot if he does not realize that all these institutions are a gigantic scam and the American public are their rubes. So-called loans, scholarships, grants, and whatever are a pass-through of tax-payer-guaranteed money into the coffers of these institutions. Most of the money then is funneled into the pockets of the drones and parasites who man these “educational” establishments. That so many of those enriching themselves in this way are worse than useless and have gotten where they are through repeated applications of affirmative action only adds to the insult and injury.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Nathan
    Yes, but ideally as a student you're IN on the scam. The public subsidized your loans, if you have them, and you'll have the name of your university and contacts to trade on when you're done. That's the ideal situation. It's more of a racket, really.

    I'm well aware of the abuses of "administrators" in public education, and it doesn't end with higher ed. Look into what your local school superintendent makes some time... you might be shocked.

    , @International Jew

    Anyone who is aware of the grotesquely inflated salaries and perks of administrators and senior faculty
     
    Yep. I doubt 1% of the people in California know that a full-time teaching load for a professor at Berkeley is two courses, i.e. eight hours a week of contact with students. And for just 36 weeks a year.
    , @stillCARealist
    If people had to pay real money, not grants, scholarships, gifts, or subsidized loans, how much of the current college system would melt away quickly? It would certainly get cheaper and leaner, that's for sure. Also a lot more practical for real jobs and real life.

    so much of what constitutes "higher education" these days just seems like a big, expensive, useless game.
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  15. Karl says:

    people: sorry to hear that your for-profit college operation is now getting attacked

    the ETHICAL law firm of Karl, Karl, & Karl……. announces its new Highly Ethical program which will make YOUR college as non-profitable as is the Endowment of Harvard University

    we gave the Clinton Global Initiative Foundation, the paperwork it needed…. we can do the same for you!!

    Read More
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  16. Schools should be responsible for a portion of each student’s loan. Make them have a skin in the game. Allow students to declare bankruptcy on that portion.

    Allowing schools to give students loans that the school isn’t responsible for is similar to what happened with mortgages and the housing bubble.

    Read More
    • Replies: @ic1000
    “Skin in the game” is the missing ingredient.

    Universities should be liable for a significant fraction of loans in default. Student debt should be dischargable in bankruptcy.

    Those two reforms would help make institutional incentives less perverse, better aligning them with those of students.
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  17. DFH says:
    @Hank Archer
    I'll bet it would be enlightening to compare these debt and earning differentials between men and women broken down by fields of study. I'm guessing that there is a much higher percentage of men with STEM degrees and many more women with "studies" degrees.

    Read More
    • Replies: @James N. Kennett
    Amazing figures - thank you!
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  18. Nathan says:
    @Jus' Sayin'...
    Anyone who is aware of the grotesquely inflated salaries and perks of administrators and senior faculty (particularly faculty in ____-studies programs, the soft social sciences, and what were once called "the liberal arts") within the nation's "non-profit" colleges and universities is an idiot if he does not realize that all these institutions are a gigantic scam and the American public are their rubes. So-called loans, scholarships, grants, and whatever are a pass-through of tax-payer-guaranteed money into the coffers of these institutions. Most of the money then is funneled into the pockets of the drones and parasites who man these "educational" establishments. That so many of those enriching themselves in this way are worse than useless and have gotten where they are through repeated applications of affirmative action only adds to the insult and injury.

    Yes, but ideally as a student you’re IN on the scam. The public subsidized your loans, if you have them, and you’ll have the name of your university and contacts to trade on when you’re done. That’s the ideal situation. It’s more of a racket, really.

    I’m well aware of the abuses of “administrators” in public education, and it doesn’t end with higher ed. Look into what your local school superintendent makes some time… you might be shocked.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  19. jim jones says:

    Surely women can just ask a man to pay off their debt and give sex in return?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anon
    As a mom of boys, this is my nightmare: a potential daughter-in-law acceptable in every way (except that she’s saddled with student and credit card debt) who won’t give me grandchildren until “somebody” (us?) pays it off
    , @MBlanc46
    And after he’s paid off her loan, she dumps him.
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  20. Dr. X says:

    The press release doesn’t give a figure for black men.

    I’ve taught college courses for twenty years. I can count the number of good black male students I’ve had in that time on one hand… with a few fingers left over.

    Most just quit after football season ends.

    My impression of for-profit colleges is that’s the basic business model: be IQ-inclusive in order to exploit (somewhat) subsidized loans. In contrast, the basic business model of not-for-profit colleges is to be IQ-exclusive.

    Not all not-for-profit colleges are IQ exclusive. Second and third-rate public colleges and community colleges will take any live body with a pulse just to keep the enrollment numbers up so they can get more state aid. I’ve had a couple of community college students who were borderline retarded. I worked at one community college where the majority of courses taught were non-credit remedial classes for students who were not prepared to to actual college work.

    Most people have no idea how much of a greed-driven racket higher education really is.

    Read More
    • Replies: @TomSchmidt
    Most people have no idea how much of a greed-driven racket higher education really is.

    Got another tale to tell? I love these stories.
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  21. Diego says:

    This is spot on. For all the talk of running traditional schools more efficiently (there is surely plenty of fat there), that’s not where the money really is in higher ed. The money is in tricking goobers into borrowing amounts of money they can’t really comprehend for a product that is useless.

    I worked at a place with a lot of sales people who had come over en masse from a large for-profit college chain. They made less money at our firm but said they just couldn’t handle being a salesperson over there. Basically, their job was to get in touch with Iraq/Afghanistan veterans and convince them to get a degree from this “arts” institute with no reputation at all. Most of the people who wound up signing up were from poorer families (that’s why they’d joined the military in the first place) and didn’t understand that colleges vary significantly in their reputations and quality: a bachelors degree was, to them, a sort of fungible commodity. No one they knew personally had one, but they sort of vaguely knew that people who had them made more money. The really sad thing is that, because only goobers would ever attend this school, its presence on a resume wound up being a liability. One of the things that made them really demoralized was the sales pitch had to do with like “opportunities for our heroes” and such, but what they were actually doing everyday was going out and ruining the lives of “our heroes.”

    There is also a lot of talk about encouraging education in the trades: giving people who aren’t cut out for college more practical skills. I think the heart is in the right place there, but I see this agenda pushed under the implicit assumption that anyone can do a trade: “You’re not college material? No problem, learn a trade.” But actually working in the trades—unless you get hooked up as a union employee for like a public parks authority (good luck with that)—is really hard: excruciating labor, heat and humidity, navigating relationships with coworkers who might be on drugs or feel easily disrespected, boom-and-bust employment, high chance of injury which can destroy your career. Society doesn’t really have a good answer for what to do with people who aren’t too bright but aren’t too strong or handy either.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Nathan
    So-called trade schools pull similar scams as the for-profit college you gave as an example. Many have virtually no prospect of landing you in the trade they allegedly train you for.
    , @anon
    looking at it from the other side: when I was in the Army (Reserve) I had a soldier who was "working on his degree" at U. of Phoenix but failed a class or two. as a result his GI bill was pulled and he was in the hole a few $k... which put his debt too high to maintain his security clearance and he was on the verge of getting kicked out.

    there's so much wrong with this story, but the salient point for this discussion is that it's a travesty what's going on in the armed forces: the Army is requiring "some college courses" for promotion, and geewhiz donchaknow the continuing education center on post has plenty of events sponsored by ridiculous degree mills aching for a hit of that sweet GI bill dosh. i mean really, what good does some low quality online class do a trigger-puller?

    , @Jim Don Bob
    Well said. A very sad story that will continue because too many people are making money f**king over their countrymen.

    Of course, maybe, just maybe, if kids were taught anything in high school then they might not fall for some, to us, obvious BS later on.
    , @bomag

    a lot of sales people who had come over en masse from a large for-profit college chain.
     
    I knew someone who worked in admissions for this type of school. They seemed to (figuratively) camp out at prisons and jails to scoop up the recently released. There is a surprising amount of money available to ex-cons for re-entering society.


    But actually working in the trades...—is really hard
     

    And trades like welding and machining; especially at the high end; take quite a bit of skill and patience.
    , @Anonymous
    Good stuff, Diego. Please contribute more.
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  22. ‘…In contrast, not-for-profit colleges such as Harvard exist to facilitate IQ exclusiveness among those with high 3-digit IQs…’

    I know my IQ of 871 is the reason I have to keep having to push my brain back into my skull.

    Read More
    • Replies: @megabar
    > I know my IQ of 871 is the reason I have to keep having to push my brain back into my skull.

    Heh. I think it's fair to parse it as "high, 3-digit IQs", where "high" and "3-digit" are each independent modifiers. In such a parsing, you could argue that 3-digit is redundant, since all high IQs are in fact 3-digit.

    That said, a similar thought went through my head on my first reading of that sentence.
    , @Clifford Brown
    Beware the Big-Brained.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QI_qjFtkE64
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  23. Black women graduate with the most debt – at $30,400

    For-profit colleges largely exist to exploit financially people with two-digit IQs by appealing to our society’s dominant Blank Slate anti-IQ ideology.


    Any
    college that accepts these people is exploiting them. In 2015, the 10 four-year public colleges that had graduates with the highest median student loan debt were all HBCUs.

    1. Central State University ($39,068)
    2. Grambling State University ($38,173)
    3. South Carolina State University ($37,000)
    4. Fort Valley State University ($35,500)
    5. Kentucky State University ($34,942)
    6. Lincoln University of Pennsylvania ($33,830)
    7. Texas Southern University ($33,763)
    8. Alabama A&M University ($33,612)
    9. Alabama State University ($33,452)
    10. Savannah State University ($32,887)

    Lincoln University had to end its Bachelor’s of Education program because almost none of its students could pass Pennsylvania’s teacher credentialing exams.

    https://www.chronicle.com/blogs/ticker/5-college-rankings-based-on-the-white-houses-new-college-scorecard-data/104437

    Read More
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  24. @Grumpy
    This is true.

    Mr. Sailer has a too-high opinion of non-profit colleges. A few can practice real exclusivity, but most colleges would cease to exist if they relied on that model.

    Typical graduation rates at regional public universities hover around 50 percent, but students pay for attending whether they graduate or not.

    The whole higher education establishment depends on the current student-debt model. Ridiculing for-profit colleges is a way of redirecting attention from the giant glass house in which almost all academics now live.

    Ridiculing for-profit colleges is a way of redirecting attention from the giant glass house in which almost all academics now live.

    Just wanted to read it again.

    Read More
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  25. @Dr. X

    The press release doesn’t give a figure for black men.
     
    I've taught college courses for twenty years. I can count the number of good black male students I've had in that time on one hand... with a few fingers left over.

    Most just quit after football season ends.

    My impression of for-profit colleges is that’s the basic business model: be IQ-inclusive in order to exploit (somewhat) subsidized loans. In contrast, the basic business model of not-for-profit colleges is to be IQ-exclusive.
     
    Not all not-for-profit colleges are IQ exclusive. Second and third-rate public colleges and community colleges will take any live body with a pulse just to keep the enrollment numbers up so they can get more state aid. I've had a couple of community college students who were borderline retarded. I worked at one community college where the majority of courses taught were non-credit remedial classes for students who were not prepared to to actual college work.

    Most people have no idea how much of a greed-driven racket higher education really is.

    Most people have no idea how much of a greed-driven racket higher education really is.

    Got another tale to tell? I love these stories.

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  26. Nathan says:
    @Diego
    This is spot on. For all the talk of running traditional schools more efficiently (there is surely plenty of fat there), that's not where the money really is in higher ed. The money is in tricking goobers into borrowing amounts of money they can't really comprehend for a product that is useless.

    I worked at a place with a lot of sales people who had come over en masse from a large for-profit college chain. They made less money at our firm but said they just couldn't handle being a salesperson over there. Basically, their job was to get in touch with Iraq/Afghanistan veterans and convince them to get a degree from this "arts" institute with no reputation at all. Most of the people who wound up signing up were from poorer families (that's why they'd joined the military in the first place) and didn't understand that colleges vary significantly in their reputations and quality: a bachelors degree was, to them, a sort of fungible commodity. No one they knew personally had one, but they sort of vaguely knew that people who had them made more money. The really sad thing is that, because only goobers would ever attend this school, its presence on a resume wound up being a liability. One of the things that made them really demoralized was the sales pitch had to do with like "opportunities for our heroes" and such, but what they were actually doing everyday was going out and ruining the lives of "our heroes."

    There is also a lot of talk about encouraging education in the trades: giving people who aren't cut out for college more practical skills. I think the heart is in the right place there, but I see this agenda pushed under the implicit assumption that anyone can do a trade: "You're not college material? No problem, learn a trade." But actually working in the trades---unless you get hooked up as a union employee for like a public parks authority (good luck with that)---is really hard: excruciating labor, heat and humidity, navigating relationships with coworkers who might be on drugs or feel easily disrespected, boom-and-bust employment, high chance of injury which can destroy your career. Society doesn't really have a good answer for what to do with people who aren't too bright but aren't too strong or handy either.

    So-called trade schools pull similar scams as the for-profit college you gave as an example. Many have virtually no prospect of landing you in the trade they allegedly train you for.

    Read More
    • Replies: @prusmc
    I believe the over-the-road truck driving academies have a good placement rate. This is if in addition to handling the big rig, the graduate doesn't have DUI, criminal records and drug history. They usually start out with local employers on construction site hauls to get some experience, then the larger firms become interested.
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  27. Anon[101] • Disclaimer says:
    @jim jones
    Surely women can just ask a man to pay off their debt and give sex in return?

    As a mom of boys, this is my nightmare: a potential daughter-in-law acceptable in every way (except that she’s saddled with student and credit card debt) who won’t give me grandchildren until “somebody” (us?) pays it off

    Read More
    • Replies: @Stan Adams
    The day before my uncle (my mother's brother) married my aunt, he found out that she owed some $40,000 in credit-card debt. (This was almost thirty years ago.) My grandfather advised him not to go through with the wedding, but he did so anyway.

    I have a framed copy of the family photograph taken at the wedding. With the exception of the bride and my mother, no one in the picture is smiling. The groom looks slightly bewildered.

    (I look particularly miserable, probably because my grandmother is gripping my arm too tightly. As I recall, she gave me a number of her trademark sharp-nailed pinches - her silent signal to "Shut up and behave" - throughout that day.)

    That being said, they're still married. Their son - my cousin - was born less than a year after the wedding.
    , @njguy73

    As a mom of boys, this is my nightmare: a potential daughter-in-law acceptable in every way (except that she’s saddled with student and credit card debt) who won’t give me grandchildren until “somebody” (us?) pays it off
     
    Drill it in your sons' heads that if they marry a woman with more than $10,000 of debt, they're setting themselves up for bad shit. And if your sons don't get pre-nups stating that neither is responsible for each other's pre-marriage debts, then they're damn fools.

    I was a damn fool who got into bad shit. Don't let your sons be like me.

    At this point someone will go, "Pre-nups don't mean shit. Any judge can toss them out because the legal system is biased against men." Then tell your sons this:

    Don't provide me with any daughters-in-law. Just live with her.
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  28. @DFH
    http://www.randalolson.com/wp-content/uploads/iq-by-college-major-gender.png

    http://www.randalolson.com/wp-content/uploads/us-college-majors-income-vs-gender-ratio-ann.png

    Amazing figures – thank you!

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  29. prusmc says: • Website
    @Nathan
    So-called trade schools pull similar scams as the for-profit college you gave as an example. Many have virtually no prospect of landing you in the trade they allegedly train you for.

    I believe the over-the-road truck driving academies have a good placement rate. This is if in addition to handling the big rig, the graduate doesn’t have DUI, criminal records and drug history. They usually start out with local employers on construction site hauls to get some experience, then the larger firms become interested.

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  30. @Nathan
    Having parents from the right side of the political spectrum, I can tell you that part of the problem with nobody being honest about how college works is partially attributable to a genuine misunderstanding of how college works. Conservative boomers tend to believe that all colleges work the way for-profit colleges work: selling you a piece of paper of questionable value in exchange for money. You can usually spot people like this making comments about trade school, or apprenticeships, or not needing a college degree to be smart and work hard. While all that's true, it has nothing to do with the fact that at a not-for-profit college (a real college) you the student are the product, and the school itself is just a way for you to be mutually branded and marketed with your social and economic cohort. This attitude seems to immunize conservative people from the idea that for-profit colleges, trade schools, and unpaid apprenticeships aren't great at best and are frequently scams- really shabby scams, in a few instances I'm aware of. They seem to think that ALL colleges and higher education in general are a scam, and taking sides between one form or another just demonstrates a lack of sophistication.

    The left seems to think that for-profit colleges are distasteful because, well, they make money, and that's just bad form.

    “ They seem to think that ALL colleges and higher education in general are a scam, and taking sides between one form or another just demonstrates a lack of sophistication.“

    They’re not entirely mistaken.

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  31. @Jus' Sayin'...
    Anyone who is aware of the grotesquely inflated salaries and perks of administrators and senior faculty (particularly faculty in ____-studies programs, the soft social sciences, and what were once called "the liberal arts") within the nation's "non-profit" colleges and universities is an idiot if he does not realize that all these institutions are a gigantic scam and the American public are their rubes. So-called loans, scholarships, grants, and whatever are a pass-through of tax-payer-guaranteed money into the coffers of these institutions. Most of the money then is funneled into the pockets of the drones and parasites who man these "educational" establishments. That so many of those enriching themselves in this way are worse than useless and have gotten where they are through repeated applications of affirmative action only adds to the insult and injury.

    Anyone who is aware of the grotesquely inflated salaries and perks of administrators and senior faculty

    Yep. I doubt 1% of the people in California know that a full-time teaching load for a professor at Berkeley is two courses, i.e. eight hours a week of contact with students. And for just 36 weeks a year.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    And even fewer people know that the role of a faculty member at Berkeley and similar institutions is not to teach courses, but to do research.
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  32. megabar says:
    @anony-mouse
    '...In contrast, not-for-profit colleges such as Harvard exist to facilitate IQ exclusiveness among those with high 3-digit IQs...'

    I know my IQ of 871 is the reason I have to keep having to push my brain back into my skull.

    > I know my IQ of 871 is the reason I have to keep having to push my brain back into my skull.

    Heh. I think it’s fair to parse it as “high, 3-digit IQs”, where “high” and “3-digit” are each independent modifiers. In such a parsing, you could argue that 3-digit is redundant, since all high IQs are in fact 3-digit.

    That said, a similar thought went through my head on my first reading of that sentence.

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  33. People think non-profit means a school doesn’t charge any more than its costs, i.e. no “profit markup”. But this is not true. For-profit and nonprofit schools alike, if successful, produce a surplus. The difference is that a for-profit school can distribute this surplus as a dividend to its shareholders, where a nonprofit must find a way of spending it on items they can call costs — which turns out to be salaries for useless people like deans of equity and diversity, and lots of on-the-job-leisure for professors.

    In one of the excesses of the early 20th century antitrust enthusiasm, the major life insurance companies were forced to reorganize themselves as “mutuals”, on the mistaken theory they’d then serve their policyholders ratger than their evil capitalist shareholders. The result was that these companies grew into gargantuan inefficient monsters. And in the 90s, they were allowed to become corporations again.

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  34. @anony-mouse
    '...In contrast, not-for-profit colleges such as Harvard exist to facilitate IQ exclusiveness among those with high 3-digit IQs...'

    I know my IQ of 871 is the reason I have to keep having to push my brain back into my skull.

    Beware the Big-Brained.

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  35. anon[693] • Disclaimer says:
    @Diego
    This is spot on. For all the talk of running traditional schools more efficiently (there is surely plenty of fat there), that's not where the money really is in higher ed. The money is in tricking goobers into borrowing amounts of money they can't really comprehend for a product that is useless.

    I worked at a place with a lot of sales people who had come over en masse from a large for-profit college chain. They made less money at our firm but said they just couldn't handle being a salesperson over there. Basically, their job was to get in touch with Iraq/Afghanistan veterans and convince them to get a degree from this "arts" institute with no reputation at all. Most of the people who wound up signing up were from poorer families (that's why they'd joined the military in the first place) and didn't understand that colleges vary significantly in their reputations and quality: a bachelors degree was, to them, a sort of fungible commodity. No one they knew personally had one, but they sort of vaguely knew that people who had them made more money. The really sad thing is that, because only goobers would ever attend this school, its presence on a resume wound up being a liability. One of the things that made them really demoralized was the sales pitch had to do with like "opportunities for our heroes" and such, but what they were actually doing everyday was going out and ruining the lives of "our heroes."

    There is also a lot of talk about encouraging education in the trades: giving people who aren't cut out for college more practical skills. I think the heart is in the right place there, but I see this agenda pushed under the implicit assumption that anyone can do a trade: "You're not college material? No problem, learn a trade." But actually working in the trades---unless you get hooked up as a union employee for like a public parks authority (good luck with that)---is really hard: excruciating labor, heat and humidity, navigating relationships with coworkers who might be on drugs or feel easily disrespected, boom-and-bust employment, high chance of injury which can destroy your career. Society doesn't really have a good answer for what to do with people who aren't too bright but aren't too strong or handy either.

    looking at it from the other side: when I was in the Army (Reserve) I had a soldier who was “working on his degree” at U. of Phoenix but failed a class or two. as a result his GI bill was pulled and he was in the hole a few $k… which put his debt too high to maintain his security clearance and he was on the verge of getting kicked out.

    there’s so much wrong with this story, but the salient point for this discussion is that it’s a travesty what’s going on in the armed forces: the Army is requiring “some college courses” for promotion, and geewhiz donchaknow the continuing education center on post has plenty of events sponsored by ridiculous degree mills aching for a hit of that sweet GI bill dosh. i mean really, what good does some low quality online class do a trigger-puller?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    I'm sure that some of the many trillions of dollars we've thrown at the military in recent decades hasn't been wasted, but I have to admit that this particular certainty is more a matter of faith than of fact.
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  36. @Diego
    This is spot on. For all the talk of running traditional schools more efficiently (there is surely plenty of fat there), that's not where the money really is in higher ed. The money is in tricking goobers into borrowing amounts of money they can't really comprehend for a product that is useless.

    I worked at a place with a lot of sales people who had come over en masse from a large for-profit college chain. They made less money at our firm but said they just couldn't handle being a salesperson over there. Basically, their job was to get in touch with Iraq/Afghanistan veterans and convince them to get a degree from this "arts" institute with no reputation at all. Most of the people who wound up signing up were from poorer families (that's why they'd joined the military in the first place) and didn't understand that colleges vary significantly in their reputations and quality: a bachelors degree was, to them, a sort of fungible commodity. No one they knew personally had one, but they sort of vaguely knew that people who had them made more money. The really sad thing is that, because only goobers would ever attend this school, its presence on a resume wound up being a liability. One of the things that made them really demoralized was the sales pitch had to do with like "opportunities for our heroes" and such, but what they were actually doing everyday was going out and ruining the lives of "our heroes."

    There is also a lot of talk about encouraging education in the trades: giving people who aren't cut out for college more practical skills. I think the heart is in the right place there, but I see this agenda pushed under the implicit assumption that anyone can do a trade: "You're not college material? No problem, learn a trade." But actually working in the trades---unless you get hooked up as a union employee for like a public parks authority (good luck with that)---is really hard: excruciating labor, heat and humidity, navigating relationships with coworkers who might be on drugs or feel easily disrespected, boom-and-bust employment, high chance of injury which can destroy your career. Society doesn't really have a good answer for what to do with people who aren't too bright but aren't too strong or handy either.

    Well said. A very sad story that will continue because too many people are making money f**king over their countrymen.

    Of course, maybe, just maybe, if kids were taught anything in high school then they might not fall for some, to us, obvious BS later on.

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    • Replies: @res

    Of course, maybe, just maybe, if kids were taught anything in high school then they might not fall for some, to us, obvious BS later on.
     
    I think this failure to educate is considered a feature, not a bug. Where would American business be without more suckers? Also helps explain the passion for more low IQ immigrants.
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  37. bomag says:
    @Diego
    This is spot on. For all the talk of running traditional schools more efficiently (there is surely plenty of fat there), that's not where the money really is in higher ed. The money is in tricking goobers into borrowing amounts of money they can't really comprehend for a product that is useless.

    I worked at a place with a lot of sales people who had come over en masse from a large for-profit college chain. They made less money at our firm but said they just couldn't handle being a salesperson over there. Basically, their job was to get in touch with Iraq/Afghanistan veterans and convince them to get a degree from this "arts" institute with no reputation at all. Most of the people who wound up signing up were from poorer families (that's why they'd joined the military in the first place) and didn't understand that colleges vary significantly in their reputations and quality: a bachelors degree was, to them, a sort of fungible commodity. No one they knew personally had one, but they sort of vaguely knew that people who had them made more money. The really sad thing is that, because only goobers would ever attend this school, its presence on a resume wound up being a liability. One of the things that made them really demoralized was the sales pitch had to do with like "opportunities for our heroes" and such, but what they were actually doing everyday was going out and ruining the lives of "our heroes."

    There is also a lot of talk about encouraging education in the trades: giving people who aren't cut out for college more practical skills. I think the heart is in the right place there, but I see this agenda pushed under the implicit assumption that anyone can do a trade: "You're not college material? No problem, learn a trade." But actually working in the trades---unless you get hooked up as a union employee for like a public parks authority (good luck with that)---is really hard: excruciating labor, heat and humidity, navigating relationships with coworkers who might be on drugs or feel easily disrespected, boom-and-bust employment, high chance of injury which can destroy your career. Society doesn't really have a good answer for what to do with people who aren't too bright but aren't too strong or handy either.

    a lot of sales people who had come over en masse from a large for-profit college chain.

    I knew someone who worked in admissions for this type of school. They seemed to (figuratively) camp out at prisons and jails to scoop up the recently released. There is a surprising amount of money available to ex-cons for re-entering society.

    But actually working in the trades…—is really hard

    And trades like welding and machining; especially at the high end; take quite a bit of skill and patience.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Johann Ricke

    And trades like welding and machining; especially at the high end; take quite a bit of skill and patience.
     
    The reason we have such difficulty finding good mechanics is fairly simple. A good mechanic is way smarter than a worker at an auto assembly plant. And the autoworker, at a non-union plant, makes about the same money as mechanic, but with better benefits. But the mechanic has to use his noggin, whereas the autoworker merely does glorified monkey work. Bottom line is that we generally get people who aren't as smart as autoworkers fixing cars. That's why so many mechanics seem dishonest, and do so much unnecessary work. Much of the time, they're just incompetents not intelligent enough to diagnose the problems with your car, except by replacing parts until the problem is fixed.
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  38. @Anon
    As a mom of boys, this is my nightmare: a potential daughter-in-law acceptable in every way (except that she’s saddled with student and credit card debt) who won’t give me grandchildren until “somebody” (us?) pays it off

    The day before my uncle (my mother’s brother) married my aunt, he found out that she owed some $40,000 in credit-card debt. (This was almost thirty years ago.) My grandfather advised him not to go through with the wedding, but he did so anyway.

    I have a framed copy of the family photograph taken at the wedding. With the exception of the bride and my mother, no one in the picture is smiling. The groom looks slightly bewildered.

    (I look particularly miserable, probably because my grandmother is gripping my arm too tightly. As I recall, she gave me a number of her trademark sharp-nailed pinches – her silent signal to “Shut up and behave” – throughout that day.)

    That being said, they’re still married. Their son – my cousin – was born less than a year after the wedding.

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  39. bjondo says:

    These sorts of “schools” are one proof US of A is run by sorrys.
    2nd bit of evidence of sorryness, textbooks that cost in the $hundreds

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  40. ic1000 says:
    @Citizen of a Silly Country
    Schools should be responsible for a portion of each student's loan. Make them have a skin in the game. Allow students to declare bankruptcy on that portion.

    Allowing schools to give students loans that the school isn't responsible for is similar to what happened with mortgages and the housing bubble.

    “Skin in the game” is the missing ingredient.

    Universities should be liable for a significant fraction of loans in default. Student debt should be dischargable in bankruptcy.

    Those two reforms would help make institutional incentives less perverse, better aligning them with those of students.

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  41. res says:
    @Jim Don Bob
    Well said. A very sad story that will continue because too many people are making money f**king over their countrymen.

    Of course, maybe, just maybe, if kids were taught anything in high school then they might not fall for some, to us, obvious BS later on.

    Of course, maybe, just maybe, if kids were taught anything in high school then they might not fall for some, to us, obvious BS later on.

    I think this failure to educate is considered a feature, not a bug. Where would American business be without more suckers? Also helps explain the passion for more low IQ immigrants.

    Read More
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  42. Sean R says:

    You can download the 60 page report at https://www.aauw.org/aauw_check/pdf_download/show_pdf.php?file=deeper-in-debt

    Some information is still buried, other figures are interesting. I haven’t read it deeply enough yet, but it seems like Black and Hispanic women are the ones pulling down the most debt and not paying it off. They go into some detail about single parents.

    Figures of note:
    Figure 2. Fall 1976 and Fall 2014 Enrollment at U.S. Colleges and Universities by Gender and Race/Ethnicity
    Note: Black men are attending college at almost exactly the rate of 1976. Black women and Hispanics have expanded.

    Figure 6. Mean Cumulative Debt for Students Graduating with a Bachelor’s Degree by Gender and Race, 2011–12

    Figure 9. Rate of Repayment, All Borrowers Who Graduated with a Bachelor’s in 2007–08
    Note: Black men owed more money in 2012 than they did in 2009.

    Figure 11. Percent of College Graduates Experiencing Financial Difficulties by Race, Gender, and Loan Repayment Status
    Note: This figure show that black men have the highest rate of no loans, or loans paid off completely over a 4 year period. Athletic Scholarships? Hispanic women are second.

    Figure 12. Percent of College Graduates in Loan Default 4 Years after College, by Race and Gender
    Note: Black Men and Black Women lead defaults – nearly double the rate of Hispanics

    Figure 13. Percent of College Graduates in Loan Default 4 Years after College, by Disability Status, Single Parent Status, Pell Grant Status, and Income Quartile
    Note: Single Parents lead defaults

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  43. Sean R says:

    I figured out why the full report seems so stilted. They’re making paying back Student Loans a women’s issue – naturally, because it’s the American Association of University Women (AAUW).

    Reading through the report, the real story is that Black men and women borrow much more, have the most difficulty paying off their loans, default more on their loans, and pay off their loans the most slowly.

    They are #1 and #2 for every category I listed.

    Student loans are racist against blacks

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  44. Anonymous[328] • Disclaimer says:

    In the UK, ‘for profit’ colleges were/are mainly fronts to facilitate massive subcontinental immigration.

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  45. They take out those loans in the expectation that a man will pay them off for them.

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  46. Anonymous[255] • Disclaimer says:
    @Diego
    This is spot on. For all the talk of running traditional schools more efficiently (there is surely plenty of fat there), that's not where the money really is in higher ed. The money is in tricking goobers into borrowing amounts of money they can't really comprehend for a product that is useless.

    I worked at a place with a lot of sales people who had come over en masse from a large for-profit college chain. They made less money at our firm but said they just couldn't handle being a salesperson over there. Basically, their job was to get in touch with Iraq/Afghanistan veterans and convince them to get a degree from this "arts" institute with no reputation at all. Most of the people who wound up signing up were from poorer families (that's why they'd joined the military in the first place) and didn't understand that colleges vary significantly in their reputations and quality: a bachelors degree was, to them, a sort of fungible commodity. No one they knew personally had one, but they sort of vaguely knew that people who had them made more money. The really sad thing is that, because only goobers would ever attend this school, its presence on a resume wound up being a liability. One of the things that made them really demoralized was the sales pitch had to do with like "opportunities for our heroes" and such, but what they were actually doing everyday was going out and ruining the lives of "our heroes."

    There is also a lot of talk about encouraging education in the trades: giving people who aren't cut out for college more practical skills. I think the heart is in the right place there, but I see this agenda pushed under the implicit assumption that anyone can do a trade: "You're not college material? No problem, learn a trade." But actually working in the trades---unless you get hooked up as a union employee for like a public parks authority (good luck with that)---is really hard: excruciating labor, heat and humidity, navigating relationships with coworkers who might be on drugs or feel easily disrespected, boom-and-bust employment, high chance of injury which can destroy your career. Society doesn't really have a good answer for what to do with people who aren't too bright but aren't too strong or handy either.

    Good stuff, Diego. Please contribute more.

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  47. Anonymous[255] • Disclaimer says:
    @anon
    looking at it from the other side: when I was in the Army (Reserve) I had a soldier who was "working on his degree" at U. of Phoenix but failed a class or two. as a result his GI bill was pulled and he was in the hole a few $k... which put his debt too high to maintain his security clearance and he was on the verge of getting kicked out.

    there's so much wrong with this story, but the salient point for this discussion is that it's a travesty what's going on in the armed forces: the Army is requiring "some college courses" for promotion, and geewhiz donchaknow the continuing education center on post has plenty of events sponsored by ridiculous degree mills aching for a hit of that sweet GI bill dosh. i mean really, what good does some low quality online class do a trigger-puller?

    I’m sure that some of the many trillions of dollars we’ve thrown at the military in recent decades hasn’t been wasted, but I have to admit that this particular certainty is more a matter of faith than of fact.

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  48. Thea says:
    @JA
    The vast majority of colleges and universities in the U.S. practice actual or virtual open enrollment.

    For-profit colleges and most non-profit colleges are identical expect for the way their accounts are tabulated. It's the same scam perpetrated on the same low-IQ students funded by the same federal programs.

    It's acceptable in Blue America to criticize the small number of for-profit colleges, but it is still taboo to criticize non-profit colleges for the same actions.

    Because for-profit is Bad and non-profit is Good.

    Agreed.

    Our local public university seeks to have high diversity. Lots of them are low income. They are encouraged to take out loans then few people graduate. They drop out with much debt and the university congratulates itself on diversity.

    I chose to view the Mizzou and other campus meltdowns as a means to keep federal loan funds flowing.

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  49. @Jus' Sayin'...
    Anyone who is aware of the grotesquely inflated salaries and perks of administrators and senior faculty (particularly faculty in ____-studies programs, the soft social sciences, and what were once called "the liberal arts") within the nation's "non-profit" colleges and universities is an idiot if he does not realize that all these institutions are a gigantic scam and the American public are their rubes. So-called loans, scholarships, grants, and whatever are a pass-through of tax-payer-guaranteed money into the coffers of these institutions. Most of the money then is funneled into the pockets of the drones and parasites who man these "educational" establishments. That so many of those enriching themselves in this way are worse than useless and have gotten where they are through repeated applications of affirmative action only adds to the insult and injury.

    If people had to pay real money, not grants, scholarships, gifts, or subsidized loans, how much of the current college system would melt away quickly? It would certainly get cheaper and leaner, that’s for sure. Also a lot more practical for real jobs and real life.

    so much of what constitutes “higher education” these days just seems like a big, expensive, useless game.

    Read More
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  50. Anonymous[402] • Disclaimer says:
    @International Jew

    Anyone who is aware of the grotesquely inflated salaries and perks of administrators and senior faculty
     
    Yep. I doubt 1% of the people in California know that a full-time teaching load for a professor at Berkeley is two courses, i.e. eight hours a week of contact with students. And for just 36 weeks a year.

    And even fewer people know that the role of a faculty member at Berkeley and similar institutions is not to teach courses, but to do research.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Art Deco
    And even fewer people know that the role of a faculty member at Berkeley and similar institutions is not to teach courses, but to do research.

    I think 2-2 loads are about normal at research universities. How many professors at Berkeley do not have a teaching load (leaving aside those parked in administrative positions)?
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  51. Bleuteaux says:

    If student loans were dischargeable in bankruptcy, the entire higher ed racket would collapse within a year or two.

    Read More
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  52. MBlanc46 says:
    @jim jones
    Surely women can just ask a man to pay off their debt and give sex in return?

    And after he’s paid off her loan, she dumps him.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Triumph104
    Wendy Davis, the former Texas state senator who held an abortion filibuster in pink tennis shoes, left her husband the day after he paid off her Harvard Law School loans.

    https://winteryknight.com/2014/01/22/wendy-davis-divorced-her-second-husband-one-day-after-he-paid-off-her-student-loans/
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  53. Art Deco says:

    1. First time enrollment in any kind of degree granting post-secondary institution (a set which includes commercial schools and community colleges) in 2015 was shy of 2.9 million. That amounts to about 65% of a young adult age cohort.

    2. Baccalaureate degrees awarded each year are currently running just north of 1.8 million, or 42% of an age cohort.

    3. ‘Graduation rates’ refer to the share who complete their program in 4 years, not the share who are able to complete their program. They reflect much more the degree to which youth stretch out their time than they do total failure.

    4. Victimology programs are indicative of the degree to which arts and sciences faculties are sandboxes. However, almost no one majors in such subjects. Fewer than 2,000 bachelor’s degrees in women’s studies are awarded each year and fewer than 1,000 black studies degrees are awarded. The programs are their for supply-side reasons, not demand-side reasons.

    5. It isn’t true that most baccalaureate-granting institutions are open enrollment. Here are the rejection rates of a dozen haphazardly selected schools:

    i. Western Illinois Univesity: 41%
    ii. California State University at Long Beach: 68%
    iii. Sul Ross State University (Abilene, Tx.): 20%
    iv. University of Southern Maine: 20%
    v. James Madison University (Harrisonburg, Va): 28%
    vi. University of Akron: 4%
    vii. St. John Fisher College (Rochester, NY): 35%
    viii. University of Alabama at Huntsville: 26%
    ix. Truman State University (Kirksville, Mo): 32%
    x. Salisbury University (Salisbury, Md): 32%
    xi. University of Tulsa: 63%
    xii. Long Island University – C.W. Post Campus: 19%

    Only Akron has a slim claim to being a research university. Nine are public, three private. Enrollments are anywhere from about 3,000 to north of 20,000.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Grumpy
    It has been a long time since graduation rates were based on the 4-year standard.

    Here, for example, is how Cal State Long Beach touts its (relatively high) graduation rate:


    Over 70% of students who begin CSULB as freshmen eventually earn baccalaureate degrees and 60% do so within six years. Over 85% of CSULB transfer students eventually earn baccalaureate degrees and over 77% do so within four years of transferring.

    CSULB's current graduation rates are higher than most other public, comprehensive universities of similar large size, funding and student mix. CSULB graduation rates have been improving and the campus continues to work toward still more gains.
     

    http://web.csulb.edu/divisions/aa/catalog/2016-2017/general_policies/graduation_rates.html
    , @FPD72
    Silly Ross State University is in the deceptively named Alpine, Texas, NOT Abilene. The are some other SRSU campuses in the Rio Grande valley, but Alpine is the main campus.
    , @Triumph104
    3. As mentioned, reported graduation rates are now six years, unless otherwise noted.

    4. I knew that there were few gender studies degrees awarded, but 1000 African studies degrees really surprised me. I suppose it makes sense. African studies degrees are most valuable at elite universities, allowing less qualified black students to earn a degree without competing in the classroom with their more academically inclined classmates, like the athletes at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.

    5. You are correct, most four-year non-profit institutions are not open enrollment, but they do have low admissions standards. There are only one or two dozen open enrollment non-profit colleges in the US. I grew up in El Paso and the University of Texas at El Paso is open enrollment with a 100% acceptance rate. I went to high school with a borderline retarded boy who attended UTEP and flunked out after the first semester.

    However, listing twelve random colleges didn't prove your point, especially when there are over 2000 non-profit colleges in the US. Nearly half of the colleges you listed are well-thought of institutions. Truman State is a respected liberal arts college.

    HBCUs have decent rejection rates but that is because they attract horrible applicants. The average HBCU has the same or worse quality student body as an open enrollment college. The rejection rate at Florida A&M is 69% while the rejection rate at Florida State University is 42%.
    Yet the test scores at FSU are a standard deviation higher than the scores at FAMU.

    (I'm getting my data by googling "thoughtco" and the college name.)

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  54. @MBlanc46
    And after he’s paid off her loan, she dumps him.

    Wendy Davis, the former Texas state senator who held an abortion filibuster in pink tennis shoes, left her husband the day after he paid off her Harvard Law School loans.

    https://winteryknight.com/2014/01/22/wendy-davis-divorced-her-second-husband-one-day-after-he-paid-off-her-student-loans/

    Read More
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  55. Art Deco says:

    What she doesn’t mention is that vocational degrees awarded predominantly to women are in teaching, nursing, social work, and the vocational wing of psychology. Law, medicine and peri-medical occupations tend to be close splits, but with women more likely to downshift and leave their profession. Most awarded business degrees are male and technology and engineering are strongly male. In regard to degrees in academic subjects or the arts, those awarded them in biology and experimental psychology tend to be female. Men dominate all other branches of mathematics and natural science. Those awarded degrees in the performing and studio arts, in the humanities, and in most sorts of social research tend to be female. History is a 50-50 split and students of economics tend to be male.

    Read More
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  56. Grumpy says:
    @Art Deco
    1. First time enrollment in any kind of degree granting post-secondary institution (a set which includes commercial schools and community colleges) in 2015 was shy of 2.9 million. That amounts to about 65% of a young adult age cohort.

    2. Baccalaureate degrees awarded each year are currently running just north of 1.8 million, or 42% of an age cohort.

    3. 'Graduation rates' refer to the share who complete their program in 4 years, not the share who are able to complete their program. They reflect much more the degree to which youth stretch out their time than they do total failure.

    4. Victimology programs are indicative of the degree to which arts and sciences faculties are sandboxes. However, almost no one majors in such subjects. Fewer than 2,000 bachelor's degrees in women's studies are awarded each year and fewer than 1,000 black studies degrees are awarded. The programs are their for supply-side reasons, not demand-side reasons.

    5. It isn't true that most baccalaureate-granting institutions are open enrollment. Here are the rejection rates of a dozen haphazardly selected schools:


    i. Western Illinois Univesity: 41%
    ii. California State University at Long Beach: 68%
    iii. Sul Ross State University (Abilene, Tx.): 20%
    iv. University of Southern Maine: 20%
    v. James Madison University (Harrisonburg, Va): 28%
    vi. University of Akron: 4%
    vii. St. John Fisher College (Rochester, NY): 35%
    viii. University of Alabama at Huntsville: 26%
    ix. Truman State University (Kirksville, Mo): 32%
    x. Salisbury University (Salisbury, Md): 32%
    xi. University of Tulsa: 63%
    xii. Long Island University - C.W. Post Campus: 19%


    Only Akron has a slim claim to being a research university. Nine are public, three private. Enrollments are anywhere from about 3,000 to north of 20,000.

    It has been a long time since graduation rates were based on the 4-year standard.

    Here, for example, is how Cal State Long Beach touts its (relatively high) graduation rate:

    Over 70% of students who begin CSULB as freshmen eventually earn baccalaureate degrees and 60% do so within six years. Over 85% of CSULB transfer students eventually earn baccalaureate degrees and over 77% do so within four years of transferring.

    CSULB’s current graduation rates are higher than most other public, comprehensive universities of similar large size, funding and student mix. CSULB graduation rates have been improving and the campus continues to work toward still more gains.

    http://web.csulb.edu/divisions/aa/catalog/2016-2017/general_policies/graduation_rates.html

    Read More
    • Replies: @Art Deco
    It has been a long time since graduation rates were based on the 4-year standard.

    U.S. News reports 4-year rates.
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  57. Art Deco says:
    @Grumpy
    It has been a long time since graduation rates were based on the 4-year standard.

    Here, for example, is how Cal State Long Beach touts its (relatively high) graduation rate:


    Over 70% of students who begin CSULB as freshmen eventually earn baccalaureate degrees and 60% do so within six years. Over 85% of CSULB transfer students eventually earn baccalaureate degrees and over 77% do so within four years of transferring.

    CSULB's current graduation rates are higher than most other public, comprehensive universities of similar large size, funding and student mix. CSULB graduation rates have been improving and the campus continues to work toward still more gains.
     

    http://web.csulb.edu/divisions/aa/catalog/2016-2017/general_policies/graduation_rates.html

    It has been a long time since graduation rates were based on the 4-year standard.

    U.S. News reports 4-year rates.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Grumpy
    When it comes to rankings, U.S. News uses a six-year graduation rate. How the actual rate compares to a predicted rate determines the effect on a college's ranking.

    U.S. News measures the difference between a school's six-year graduation rate for the class that entered in 2010 and the rate U.S. News had predicted for the class.
     
    https://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/articles/how-us-news-calculated-the-rankings
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  58. FPD72 says:
    @Art Deco
    1. First time enrollment in any kind of degree granting post-secondary institution (a set which includes commercial schools and community colleges) in 2015 was shy of 2.9 million. That amounts to about 65% of a young adult age cohort.

    2. Baccalaureate degrees awarded each year are currently running just north of 1.8 million, or 42% of an age cohort.

    3. 'Graduation rates' refer to the share who complete their program in 4 years, not the share who are able to complete their program. They reflect much more the degree to which youth stretch out their time than they do total failure.

    4. Victimology programs are indicative of the degree to which arts and sciences faculties are sandboxes. However, almost no one majors in such subjects. Fewer than 2,000 bachelor's degrees in women's studies are awarded each year and fewer than 1,000 black studies degrees are awarded. The programs are their for supply-side reasons, not demand-side reasons.

    5. It isn't true that most baccalaureate-granting institutions are open enrollment. Here are the rejection rates of a dozen haphazardly selected schools:


    i. Western Illinois Univesity: 41%
    ii. California State University at Long Beach: 68%
    iii. Sul Ross State University (Abilene, Tx.): 20%
    iv. University of Southern Maine: 20%
    v. James Madison University (Harrisonburg, Va): 28%
    vi. University of Akron: 4%
    vii. St. John Fisher College (Rochester, NY): 35%
    viii. University of Alabama at Huntsville: 26%
    ix. Truman State University (Kirksville, Mo): 32%
    x. Salisbury University (Salisbury, Md): 32%
    xi. University of Tulsa: 63%
    xii. Long Island University - C.W. Post Campus: 19%


    Only Akron has a slim claim to being a research university. Nine are public, three private. Enrollments are anywhere from about 3,000 to north of 20,000.

    Silly Ross State University is in the deceptively named Alpine, Texas, NOT Abilene. The are some other SRSU campuses in the Rio Grande valley, but Alpine is the main campus.

    Read More
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  59. njguy73 says:
    @Anon
    As a mom of boys, this is my nightmare: a potential daughter-in-law acceptable in every way (except that she’s saddled with student and credit card debt) who won’t give me grandchildren until “somebody” (us?) pays it off

    As a mom of boys, this is my nightmare: a potential daughter-in-law acceptable in every way (except that she’s saddled with student and credit card debt) who won’t give me grandchildren until “somebody” (us?) pays it off

    Drill it in your sons’ heads that if they marry a woman with more than $10,000 of debt, they’re setting themselves up for bad shit. And if your sons don’t get pre-nups stating that neither is responsible for each other’s pre-marriage debts, then they’re damn fools.

    I was a damn fool who got into bad shit. Don’t let your sons be like me.

    At this point someone will go, “Pre-nups don’t mean shit. Any judge can toss them out because the legal system is biased against men.” Then tell your sons this:

    Don’t provide me with any daughters-in-law. Just live with her.

    Read More
    • Replies: @res

    if they marry a woman with more than $10,000 of debt, they’re setting themselves up for bad shit.
    ...
    I was a damn fool who got into bad shit. Don’t let your sons be like me.
     
    Was that because of the debt or because of what the debt implied about responsibility? The latter is not helped by a pre-nup, though willingness to have the pre-nup might be a positive indicator.

    I think it is worth noting the difference between debt like credit cards for consumption and investment debt (e.g. a mortgage) or debt for training which is remunerative (e.g. law school if actually using the degree). I am interested in other opinions though. And Triumph104's Wendy Davis comment provides a cautionary tale.

    P.S. For what it is worth I have multiple friends who paid off five figure credit card debts of their wives (from before the relationship) and turned out to have lasting and successful marriages. It would be interesting to see a study looking at pre-marriage debt and marriage outcomes. Is there such a thing?
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  60. @bomag

    a lot of sales people who had come over en masse from a large for-profit college chain.
     
    I knew someone who worked in admissions for this type of school. They seemed to (figuratively) camp out at prisons and jails to scoop up the recently released. There is a surprising amount of money available to ex-cons for re-entering society.


    But actually working in the trades...—is really hard
     

    And trades like welding and machining; especially at the high end; take quite a bit of skill and patience.

    And trades like welding and machining; especially at the high end; take quite a bit of skill and patience.

    The reason we have such difficulty finding good mechanics is fairly simple. A good mechanic is way smarter than a worker at an auto assembly plant. And the autoworker, at a non-union plant, makes about the same money as mechanic, but with better benefits. But the mechanic has to use his noggin, whereas the autoworker merely does glorified monkey work. Bottom line is that we generally get people who aren’t as smart as autoworkers fixing cars. That’s why so many mechanics seem dishonest, and do so much unnecessary work. Much of the time, they’re just incompetents not intelligent enough to diagnose the problems with your car, except by replacing parts until the problem is fixed.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Art Deco
    I haven't had a problem with a car mechanic in 20-odd years, and it's been 35 years or more in my family since problems were what you expected to have.
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  61. Grumpy says:
    @Art Deco
    It has been a long time since graduation rates were based on the 4-year standard.

    U.S. News reports 4-year rates.

    When it comes to rankings, U.S. News uses a six-year graduation rate. How the actual rate compares to a predicted rate determines the effect on a college’s ranking.

    U.S. News measures the difference between a school’s six-year graduation rate for the class that entered in 2010 and the rate U.S. News had predicted for the class.

    https://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/articles/how-us-news-calculated-the-rankings

    Read More
    • Replies: @Art Deco
    The 4 year rate is reported in the profile of every institution.
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  62. Paul says:

    My mom was a member of that university women outfit. I found it interesting that the women’s networking association could discriminate against men regarding membership, but men are not supposed to have their own country club, golfing organizations. The complaints about the latter seemed hypocritical.

    Read More
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  63. @Art Deco
    1. First time enrollment in any kind of degree granting post-secondary institution (a set which includes commercial schools and community colleges) in 2015 was shy of 2.9 million. That amounts to about 65% of a young adult age cohort.

    2. Baccalaureate degrees awarded each year are currently running just north of 1.8 million, or 42% of an age cohort.

    3. 'Graduation rates' refer to the share who complete their program in 4 years, not the share who are able to complete their program. They reflect much more the degree to which youth stretch out their time than they do total failure.

    4. Victimology programs are indicative of the degree to which arts and sciences faculties are sandboxes. However, almost no one majors in such subjects. Fewer than 2,000 bachelor's degrees in women's studies are awarded each year and fewer than 1,000 black studies degrees are awarded. The programs are their for supply-side reasons, not demand-side reasons.

    5. It isn't true that most baccalaureate-granting institutions are open enrollment. Here are the rejection rates of a dozen haphazardly selected schools:


    i. Western Illinois Univesity: 41%
    ii. California State University at Long Beach: 68%
    iii. Sul Ross State University (Abilene, Tx.): 20%
    iv. University of Southern Maine: 20%
    v. James Madison University (Harrisonburg, Va): 28%
    vi. University of Akron: 4%
    vii. St. John Fisher College (Rochester, NY): 35%
    viii. University of Alabama at Huntsville: 26%
    ix. Truman State University (Kirksville, Mo): 32%
    x. Salisbury University (Salisbury, Md): 32%
    xi. University of Tulsa: 63%
    xii. Long Island University - C.W. Post Campus: 19%


    Only Akron has a slim claim to being a research university. Nine are public, three private. Enrollments are anywhere from about 3,000 to north of 20,000.

    3. As mentioned, reported graduation rates are now six years, unless otherwise noted.

    4. I knew that there were few gender studies degrees awarded, but 1000 African studies degrees really surprised me. I suppose it makes sense. African studies degrees are most valuable at elite universities, allowing less qualified black students to earn a degree without competing in the classroom with their more academically inclined classmates, like the athletes at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.

    5. You are correct, most four-year non-profit institutions are not open enrollment, but they do have low admissions standards. There are only one or two dozen open enrollment non-profit colleges in the US. I grew up in El Paso and the University of Texas at El Paso is open enrollment with a 100% acceptance rate. I went to high school with a borderline retarded boy who attended UTEP and flunked out after the first semester.

    However, listing twelve random colleges didn’t prove your point, especially when there are over 2000 non-profit colleges in the US. Nearly half of the colleges you listed are well-thought of institutions. Truman State is a respected liberal arts college.

    HBCUs have decent rejection rates but that is because they attract horrible applicants. The average HBCU has the same or worse quality student body as an open enrollment college. The rejection rate at Florida A&M is 69% while the rejection rate at Florida State University is 42%.
    Yet the test scores at FSU are a standard deviation higher than the scores at FAMU.

    (I’m getting my data by googling “thoughtco” and the college name.)

    Read More
    • Replies: @Art Deco
    3. You can examine the institutional profiles reported by U.S. News yourself. They report the 4 year rate.

    4. For the record, 191,000 baccalaureate degrees were awarded to blacks in 2015. That same year, 624 degrees were awarded in black studies (to people of any race). Very few black students invest in this crap for anything but some distribution credits. Black BA recipients are distributed among umbrella categories as follows: Business, 21%; "Heath Professions" (predominantly nursing), 12%; 'Social Sciences and History', 8%; Psychology, 7%; security, law enforcement &c, 6%; Communications, 5%; 'public administration' (predominantly social work), 4% &c.

    5. I was providing examples. It wasn't meant as a proof, but as a demonstration that he was talking out of his ass. I doubt a comprehensive analysis would tell you anything different. No, I did not provide 'highly regarded' schools. I avoided research universities and I avoided teaching institutions with cachet. Those are just a dozen random institutions I pulled out of my head, bar that I made a point to pick from a scatter of regions.

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  64. res says:
    @njguy73

    As a mom of boys, this is my nightmare: a potential daughter-in-law acceptable in every way (except that she’s saddled with student and credit card debt) who won’t give me grandchildren until “somebody” (us?) pays it off
     
    Drill it in your sons' heads that if they marry a woman with more than $10,000 of debt, they're setting themselves up for bad shit. And if your sons don't get pre-nups stating that neither is responsible for each other's pre-marriage debts, then they're damn fools.

    I was a damn fool who got into bad shit. Don't let your sons be like me.

    At this point someone will go, "Pre-nups don't mean shit. Any judge can toss them out because the legal system is biased against men." Then tell your sons this:

    Don't provide me with any daughters-in-law. Just live with her.

    if they marry a woman with more than $10,000 of debt, they’re setting themselves up for bad shit.

    I was a damn fool who got into bad shit. Don’t let your sons be like me.

    Was that because of the debt or because of what the debt implied about responsibility? The latter is not helped by a pre-nup, though willingness to have the pre-nup might be a positive indicator.

    I think it is worth noting the difference between debt like credit cards for consumption and investment debt (e.g. a mortgage) or debt for training which is remunerative (e.g. law school if actually using the degree). I am interested in other opinions though. And Triumph104′s Wendy Davis comment provides a cautionary tale.

    P.S. For what it is worth I have multiple friends who paid off five figure credit card debts of their wives (from before the relationship) and turned out to have lasting and successful marriages. It would be interesting to see a study looking at pre-marriage debt and marriage outcomes. Is there such a thing?

    Read More
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  65. njguy73 says:

    Was that because of the debt or because of what the debt implied about responsibility?

    It was a combination of the two. Partially overpaying for higher education, mostly trying to keep up with the Joneses.

    Read More
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  66. Art Deco says:
    @Grumpy
    When it comes to rankings, U.S. News uses a six-year graduation rate. How the actual rate compares to a predicted rate determines the effect on a college's ranking.

    U.S. News measures the difference between a school's six-year graduation rate for the class that entered in 2010 and the rate U.S. News had predicted for the class.
     
    https://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/articles/how-us-news-calculated-the-rankings

    The 4 year rate is reported in the profile of every institution.

    Read More
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  67. Art Deco says:
    @Triumph104
    3. As mentioned, reported graduation rates are now six years, unless otherwise noted.

    4. I knew that there were few gender studies degrees awarded, but 1000 African studies degrees really surprised me. I suppose it makes sense. African studies degrees are most valuable at elite universities, allowing less qualified black students to earn a degree without competing in the classroom with their more academically inclined classmates, like the athletes at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.

    5. You are correct, most four-year non-profit institutions are not open enrollment, but they do have low admissions standards. There are only one or two dozen open enrollment non-profit colleges in the US. I grew up in El Paso and the University of Texas at El Paso is open enrollment with a 100% acceptance rate. I went to high school with a borderline retarded boy who attended UTEP and flunked out after the first semester.

    However, listing twelve random colleges didn't prove your point, especially when there are over 2000 non-profit colleges in the US. Nearly half of the colleges you listed are well-thought of institutions. Truman State is a respected liberal arts college.

    HBCUs have decent rejection rates but that is because they attract horrible applicants. The average HBCU has the same or worse quality student body as an open enrollment college. The rejection rate at Florida A&M is 69% while the rejection rate at Florida State University is 42%.
    Yet the test scores at FSU are a standard deviation higher than the scores at FAMU.

    (I'm getting my data by googling "thoughtco" and the college name.)

    3. You can examine the institutional profiles reported by U.S. News yourself. They report the 4 year rate.

    4. For the record, 191,000 baccalaureate degrees were awarded to blacks in 2015. That same year, 624 degrees were awarded in black studies (to people of any race). Very few black students invest in this crap for anything but some distribution credits. Black BA recipients are distributed among umbrella categories as follows: Business, 21%; “Heath Professions” (predominantly nursing), 12%; ‘Social Sciences and History’, 8%; Psychology, 7%; security, law enforcement &c, 6%; Communications, 5%; ‘public administration’ (predominantly social work), 4% &c.

    5. I was providing examples. It wasn’t meant as a proof, but as a demonstration that he was talking out of his ass. I doubt a comprehensive analysis would tell you anything different. No, I did not provide ‘highly regarded’ schools. I avoided research universities and I avoided teaching institutions with cachet. Those are just a dozen random institutions I pulled out of my head, bar that I made a point to pick from a scatter of regions.

    Read More
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  68. Art Deco says:
    @Johann Ricke

    And trades like welding and machining; especially at the high end; take quite a bit of skill and patience.
     
    The reason we have such difficulty finding good mechanics is fairly simple. A good mechanic is way smarter than a worker at an auto assembly plant. And the autoworker, at a non-union plant, makes about the same money as mechanic, but with better benefits. But the mechanic has to use his noggin, whereas the autoworker merely does glorified monkey work. Bottom line is that we generally get people who aren't as smart as autoworkers fixing cars. That's why so many mechanics seem dishonest, and do so much unnecessary work. Much of the time, they're just incompetents not intelligent enough to diagnose the problems with your car, except by replacing parts until the problem is fixed.

    I haven’t had a problem with a car mechanic in 20-odd years, and it’s been 35 years or more in my family since problems were what you expected to have.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Johann Ricke

    I haven’t had a problem with a car mechanic in 20-odd years, and it’s been 35 years or more in my family since problems were what you expected to have.
     
    If your car doesn't have any problems, you won't have issues with your mechanic. From that perspective, there's something to be said for rice burners. I prefer domestic makes, but the mechanical issues are a deal breaker. My lousy experiences with mechanics are why I switched to Japanese imports.
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  69. @Art Deco
    I haven't had a problem with a car mechanic in 20-odd years, and it's been 35 years or more in my family since problems were what you expected to have.

    I haven’t had a problem with a car mechanic in 20-odd years, and it’s been 35 years or more in my family since problems were what you expected to have.

    If your car doesn’t have any problems, you won’t have issues with your mechanic. From that perspective, there’s something to be said for rice burners. I prefer domestic makes, but the mechanical issues are a deal breaker. My lousy experiences with mechanics are why I switched to Japanese imports.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Art Deco
    I've dealt with mechanics several times a year for 30-odd years. I've had one disagreeable incident. I've made use of three different shops in that time.
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  70. Art Deco says:
    @Anonymous
    And even fewer people know that the role of a faculty member at Berkeley and similar institutions is not to teach courses, but to do research.

    And even fewer people know that the role of a faculty member at Berkeley and similar institutions is not to teach courses, but to do research.

    I think 2-2 loads are about normal at research universities. How many professors at Berkeley do not have a teaching load (leaving aside those parked in administrative positions)?

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  71. Art Deco says:
    @Johann Ricke

    I haven’t had a problem with a car mechanic in 20-odd years, and it’s been 35 years or more in my family since problems were what you expected to have.
     
    If your car doesn't have any problems, you won't have issues with your mechanic. From that perspective, there's something to be said for rice burners. I prefer domestic makes, but the mechanical issues are a deal breaker. My lousy experiences with mechanics are why I switched to Japanese imports.

    I’ve dealt with mechanics several times a year for 30-odd years. I’ve had one disagreeable incident. I’ve made use of three different shops in that time.

    Read More
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