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The Fundamental Trade-Off of Haitian Emigration
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As I blogged back in 2010:

Invade the World, Invite the World in Action

Neocon insider Elliott Abrams, JPod’s brother-in-law and the Bush Administration’s top man on Middle East policy (which was a pretty hilarious job for a man who had spent the 1990s campaigning against intermarriage), explains in the Washington Post that we should let in more Haitians:

What Haiti needs: A Haitian diaspora
By Elliott Abrams
Friday, January 22, 2010

As Max Boot might say, you can never have too much cannon fodder!

There’s a fundamental tradeoff, however:

- Either, we let in Haiti’s educated minority, but that just makes Haiti dumber, which isn’t good for Haiti. And there isn’t even much of an educated class left in Haiti after decades of brain drain by emigation. Wikipedia’s article on Papa Doc says:

His rule, based on a purged military, a rural militia and the use of personality cult and vodoo, resulted in a brain drain from which the country has not recovered. … Educated professionals fled Haiti in droves for New York City, Miami, French-speaking Montreal, Paris, and several French-speaking African countries, exacerbating an already serious lack of doctors and teachers. Some of the highly skilled professionals joined the ranks of several UN agencies to work in development in newly-independent nations such as Ivory Coast, and Congo. The country has never recovered from this brain drain.

Contra Elliott Abrams, Haiti already has a diaspora.

- Or, we admit uneducated Haitian peasants who can’t earn much money in the U.S. and have a very high birth rate.

Which one will it be?

 
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  1. Can anyone honestly say they’d rather live in a neighborhood, city, or country full of Haitians rather than one full of Norwegians?

    Read More
    • Replies: @JohnnyWalker123
    The Israelis have made their feelings on Africans very clear.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGJVX6jYjI0

    I wonder how (((Kristol))), (((Brooks))), and (((Frum))) feel about this video. I wonder how they feel about Israel's Jewish-only migration policy.

    Israelis give a hearty Jewish welcome to a foreign visitor.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0EnWkpnVek
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
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  2. Boomers like this think they built America all by themselves with just hard work and optimism. If they can do it, so can Haitians.

    To the extent they understand minority failure, they think Blacks just aren’t trying enough because of Democrat brainwashing. Ty’Rone and Shiwanda just need good role models so they can make six figures and retire in a Winnebago.

    If you think I am exaggerating, talk to them.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Chris Mallory
    Boomer hate is typically the number one sign of a weak male with daddy issues. This weak male needs someone else to blame for his many failures in life. The boomer hater is sad and insecure because his father never gave him a hug.

    If you think I am exaggerating, talk to them.
    , @TomSchmidt
    "BOomercide now"?
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  3. Dave Pinsen says: • Website

    Wasn’t it Haiti’s diaspora that encouraged Clinton to go into Haiti?

    Read More
    • Replies: @ogunsiron
    For whatever reason, the Clinton administration re-instated Aristide as president of Haiti in 1994. Aristide had been ousted by a military coup, led by one of those lebanese/syrian/palestinian who make so many things happen in latin america. The haitian diaspora in the usa seems to have largely been in favor of this. They had held many demonstrations.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  4. Ironically the worst case scenario of souring relations with Haiti over Trump’s comments is not that they stop doing business with us, but that they pull a Cuban Boatlift and send even more Haitians.

    Read More
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  5. ogunsiron says:
    @Dave Pinsen
    Wasn't it Haiti's diaspora that encouraged Clinton to go into Haiti?

    For whatever reason, the Clinton administration re-instated Aristide as president of Haiti in 1994. Aristide had been ousted by a military coup, led by one of those lebanese/syrian/palestinian who make so many things happen in latin america. The haitian diaspora in the usa seems to have largely been in favor of this. They had held many demonstrations.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  6. Thomas says:

    I’ve wondered in the past over previous kerfluffles Trump has gotten into trying to pick and choose between immigrants (e.g., the “Muslim ban”), and I have to wonder again: how much less trouble would Trump have faced if he had just come out for a clean, clear, easy to pitch and easy to administer moratorium on all immigration, save for some very small numbers of very specific categories? At the very least, that would’ve pulled the Overton window hard in the right direction.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Clifford Brown
    A fair portion of American GDP growth arises from simply importing millions of new consumers every year. Billions in government spending from Medicaid to refugee resettlement is premised on a constant inflow. Newcomers juke aggregate demand for everything from housing, Walmart sales, Big Macs to college tuition expenditures. You cut that off and much of our "growth" will be revealed as illusionary. Wall Street, Big Government and Big Non-Profit are completely dependent on the constant inflow of new spenders and clients. Without an ever expanding class of debt slaves, the system collapses upon itself.
    , @guest
    You think a blanket moratorium would be easier to sell? I find that extremely unlikely. The opposition would've been screaming "racist!" every bit as loudly.

    Your suggestion is like thinking making tax cuts progressive prevents people from calling them "tax cuts for the rich." It doesn't.

    Forcing people to poo-poo the notion that a president is allowed to set immigration policy on national security grounds or attempting to argue Haiti isn't a poop-hole is the sort of thing normal people can understand as ridiculous.
    , @Mr. Anon
    He should have read to the end of Ann Coulter's book Adios America; that's what she called for. As you say, that might be easier to sell. Outside of the TV talking heads who want to brown and drown America or those who are paid, lying stooges, are there really that many people in the U.S. who think that it just isn't crowded enough?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  7. @Space Ghost
    Can anyone honestly say they'd rather live in a neighborhood, city, or country full of Haitians rather than one full of Norwegians?

    The Israelis have made their feelings on Africans very clear.

    I wonder how (((Kristol))), (((Brooks))), and (((Frum))) feel about this video. I wonder how they feel about Israel’s Jewish-only migration policy.

    Israelis give a hearty Jewish welcome to a foreign visitor.

    Read More
    • Replies: @anonymous
    Psst...you're not supposed to notice.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  8. O'Really says:

    Trump always gets the cockroaches scurrying out into the light…

    Read More
    • Replies: @Maj. Kong
    Leftist Americans always talk about moving to Canada or Australia, but never South Africa which has all the leftism that you could ever want and still be English speaking.

    Were the left to admit the Haitians have moral agency, it would cause a mental cataclysm.
    , @guest
    I don't follow his logic.

    The argument should be that the U.S. made Haiti a poop-hole.* But then he'd have to admit Haiti is a poop-hole.

    *The U.S. has both kept a brotha down and lifted him up, but Haiti is a poop-hole because it's full of Haitians.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  9. @Thomas
    I've wondered in the past over previous kerfluffles Trump has gotten into trying to pick and choose between immigrants (e.g., the "Muslim ban"), and I have to wonder again: how much less trouble would Trump have faced if he had just come out for a clean, clear, easy to pitch and easy to administer moratorium on all immigration, save for some very small numbers of very specific categories? At the very least, that would've pulled the Overton window hard in the right direction.

    A fair portion of American GDP growth arises from simply importing millions of new consumers every year. Billions in government spending from Medicaid to refugee resettlement is premised on a constant inflow. Newcomers juke aggregate demand for everything from housing, Walmart sales, Big Macs to college tuition expenditures. You cut that off and much of our “growth” will be revealed as illusionary. Wall Street, Big Government and Big Non-Profit are completely dependent on the constant inflow of new spenders and clients. Without an ever expanding class of debt slaves, the system collapses upon itself.

    Read More
    • Agree: Alden
    • Replies: @J.Ross
    And that would be bad for us because ... ? This is illustrating beyond inherent tendency how a rentier-caste destroys a country, in this case actively through destructive policies.
    , @The Anti-Gnostic
    Porter/Kakistocracy has made this observation as well. It's not labor--we don't need their labor--it's consumption. Facebook gets rich whether the eyeballs belong to a French neurosurgeon or a Haitian janitor. Cities have more sales tax. Government contractors building infrastructure have more work. Democrats have more votes. Social workers have more clients.

    The economy is expanding to meet the needs of the expanding economy. It's not sustainable, but that's your kids' problem!
    , @TomSchmidt
    Wow, simply and well stated.
    , @Corvinus
    "A fair portion of American GDP growth arises from simply importing millions of new consumers every year."

    Any specific data lending support to this assertion?

    "Without an ever expanding class of debt slaves, the system collapses upon itself."

    Welcome to the new normal. Old economic paradigms need not necessarily apply.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  10. Can anyone honestly say they’d rather live in a neighborhood, city, or country full of Haitians rather than one full of Norwegians?

    Well, Haitians tend to make more noise and talk rather loudly, but apart from that I am quite fond of Haitians and prefer their cuisine to reindeer burgers and smorgasbord and their music too.

    I have been to Haiti a couple of times and found it pretty fascinating place. Of course what no one ever says is that the Haitians have not been forgiven for kicking out the French and ending slavery in their country 50 years before the United States, however Haitians are very aware of this and find it hard to understand why African Americans did not fight back more.

    In general Haitians would prefer to go to Canada or Europe, or even Brazil, but the US just happens to be awfully close at hand, especially that pendulous peninsula called Florida.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Moses
    What's your zip code?
    , @guest
    The thing Haitians haven't been forgiven for is unleashing the Terror and providing a negative example for future stupid revolutionaries and anti-whites throughout history. Literally no one cares about them ending slavery before the U.S., except as it led to chaos.

    You know you can get their cuisine without importing them en masse, right? (We don't really need any of them, to be honest, if they let us in to watch them cook.)

    , @Clifford Brown

    In general Haitians would prefer to go to Canada or Europe, or even Brazil, but the US just happens to be awfully close at hand, especially that pendulous peninsula called Florida.
     
    As a sovereign nation, the United States should be able to determine its level of Haitian immigration.

    As for your intense love of Haiti, when are you moving there? Will you raise your family there? Good luck!!!
    , @Hapalong Cassidy
    One thing I will say about Haitians; the ones I have met have all been extremely hard-working. Given the choice between them, and say, Puerto Ricans, I’d probably take the Haitians.
    , @bomag

    In general Haitians would prefer to go to Canada or Europe, or even Brazil...
     
    If a plane ticket and incentive cash would move them on, that would be a deal.

    Of course what no one ever says is that the Haitians have not been forgiven for kicking out the French and ending slavery in their country 50 years before the United States
     
    I hear this all the time from the usual crowd who are in the business of manufacturing laughable excuses.

    but apart from that I am quite fond of Haitians and prefer their cuisine...
     
    And if that's the best advocacy you can generate, don't be surprised when the rest of us aren't too excited about the prospect.
    , @ogunsiron
    Of course what no one ever says is that the Haitians have not been forgiven for kicking out the French and ending slavery in their country 50 years before the United States, however Haitians are very aware of this and find it hard to understand why African Americans did not fight back more.
    -----
    Even in 1804, German merchants were in Haiti making money. They were explicitly allowed to settle even though they were White. King Christophe worked with the Germans and the English to try to modernize (i guess it didn't work) his part of the country. By the mid 19th century, French merchants were back in Haiti, glad to be making money. I read that in the early 19th, american Northerners were quite willing to have relations with Haiti. The South was able to put enough pressure to stop that, though.

    My point is that there was no universal white conspiracy to make Haiti pay. Yes, many racially conscious Whites during the 19th century probably harbored very bad feelings against Haiti, but other Whites were totally willing to turn the page.

    Btw, the fact that a lot of Haitians still think a lot about what the haitian revolution and what happened in 1804 is an argument *against* haitian immigration into White countries.
    , @Expletive Deleted

    Haitians are very aware of this and find it hard to understand why African Americans did not fight back more.
     
    So what you're saying is Haitians can't into simple arithmetic?
    , @WJ
    You've been to Haiti like I am the Pope but hey, this the Internet where everyone can be what they want to be. If you had been there, as I have in the military, you would know that s...hole is actually too good a word for the place.
    , @anon
    Do you actually LIVE in a Haitian neighborhood? Have you MOVED to Haiti?

    You talk the talk sport, but you don't walk the walk!
    , @anon
    They didn't "kick out" the French. They slaughtered them all. They even invited the few who got away back in just so they could slaughter them too.
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  11. Maj. Kong says:
    @O'Really
    Trump always gets the cockroaches scurrying out into the light...

    https://twitter.com/jeremyscahill/status/951606732450607105

    Leftist Americans always talk about moving to Canada or Australia, but never South Africa which has all the leftism that you could ever want and still be English speaking.

    Were the left to admit the Haitians have moral agency, it would cause a mental cataclysm.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  12. J.Ross says: • Website
    @Clifford Brown
    A fair portion of American GDP growth arises from simply importing millions of new consumers every year. Billions in government spending from Medicaid to refugee resettlement is premised on a constant inflow. Newcomers juke aggregate demand for everything from housing, Walmart sales, Big Macs to college tuition expenditures. You cut that off and much of our "growth" will be revealed as illusionary. Wall Street, Big Government and Big Non-Profit are completely dependent on the constant inflow of new spenders and clients. Without an ever expanding class of debt slaves, the system collapses upon itself.

    And that would be bad for us because … ? This is illustrating beyond inherent tendency how a rentier-caste destroys a country, in this case actively through destructive policies.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Clifford Brown
    I agree with you. Just explaining why the Establishment is so invested in expansive immigration. Our elites are not concerned about the next generation, only the next quarter.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  13. I have met many hard-working Haitians–try driving a taxi in Manhattan. Think Trump is off base here

    Read More
    • Replies: @Clifford Brown
    My Haitian servant works harder for less money than other Americans therefore unlimited immigration from Haiti is good for America. That's not how this works.

    Hey, you know where there is an unlimited, cheap Haitian Servant Class? HAITI. Why don't you move there?

    Would you live in a Haitian neighborhood? Send your kids to an all Haitian school in Brooklyn? No, you wouldn't. Are you building a nation or looking for a cheap servant class? Time to stop thinking only about yourself and saving a Dollar on a damn cab ride.

    Start thinking about Making America Great Again.
    , @James Braxton
    If they are so "hard working" why is their country such a shithole?

    And let's be honest, driving a cab isn't particularly challenging, which is why third world immigrants flock to it.
    , @bomag

    I have met many hard-working Haitians
     
    A few hard working cabbies in NY is not a good deal if we have to take in the rest of them.
    , @anon
    What exactly is such a big deal about being a cab driver? How many brain surgeons do we get from Haiti sport? You mean to say New York never had any cabbies until Haitians came to the rescue?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  14. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  15. @J.Ross
    And that would be bad for us because ... ? This is illustrating beyond inherent tendency how a rentier-caste destroys a country, in this case actively through destructive policies.

    I agree with you. Just explaining why the Establishment is so invested in expansive immigration. Our elites are not concerned about the next generation, only the next quarter.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  16. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Thanks.
    , @anon
    What is Mexico's "greatness" built on?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  17. @Meretricious
    I have met many hard-working Haitians--try driving a taxi in Manhattan. Think Trump is off base here

    My Haitian servant works harder for less money than other Americans therefore unlimited immigration from Haiti is good for America. That’s not how this works.

    Hey, you know where there is an unlimited, cheap Haitian Servant Class? HAITI. Why don’t you move there?

    Would you live in a Haitian neighborhood? Send your kids to an all Haitian school in Brooklyn? No, you wouldn’t. Are you building a nation or looking for a cheap servant class? Time to stop thinking only about yourself and saving a Dollar on a damn cab ride.

    Start thinking about Making America Great Again.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  18. @Anonymous
    https://twitter.com/VicenteFoxQue/status/951586161931235328

    Thanks.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  19. Moses says:
    @Jonathan Mason

    Can anyone honestly say they’d rather live in a neighborhood, city, or country full of Haitians rather than one full of Norwegians?
     
    Well, Haitians tend to make more noise and talk rather loudly, but apart from that I am quite fond of Haitians and prefer their cuisine to reindeer burgers and smorgasbord and their music too.

    I have been to Haiti a couple of times and found it pretty fascinating place. Of course what no one ever says is that the Haitians have not been forgiven for kicking out the French and ending slavery in their country 50 years before the United States, however Haitians are very aware of this and find it hard to understand why African Americans did not fight back more.

    In general Haitians would prefer to go to Canada or Europe, or even Brazil, but the US just happens to be awfully close at hand, especially that pendulous peninsula called Florida.

    What’s your zip code?

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  20. guest says:
    @Thomas
    I've wondered in the past over previous kerfluffles Trump has gotten into trying to pick and choose between immigrants (e.g., the "Muslim ban"), and I have to wonder again: how much less trouble would Trump have faced if he had just come out for a clean, clear, easy to pitch and easy to administer moratorium on all immigration, save for some very small numbers of very specific categories? At the very least, that would've pulled the Overton window hard in the right direction.

    You think a blanket moratorium would be easier to sell? I find that extremely unlikely. The opposition would’ve been screaming “racist!” every bit as loudly.

    Your suggestion is like thinking making tax cuts progressive prevents people from calling them “tax cuts for the rich.” It doesn’t.

    Forcing people to poo-poo the notion that a president is allowed to set immigration policy on national security grounds or attempting to argue Haiti isn’t a poop-hole is the sort of thing normal people can understand as ridiculous.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  21. guest says:
    @O'Really
    Trump always gets the cockroaches scurrying out into the light...

    https://twitter.com/jeremyscahill/status/951606732450607105

    I don’t follow his logic.

    The argument should be that the U.S. made Haiti a poop-hole.* But then he’d have to admit Haiti is a poop-hole.

    *The U.S. has both kept a brotha down and lifted him up, but Haiti is a poop-hole because it’s full of Haitians.

    Read More
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  22. guest says:
    @Jonathan Mason

    Can anyone honestly say they’d rather live in a neighborhood, city, or country full of Haitians rather than one full of Norwegians?
     
    Well, Haitians tend to make more noise and talk rather loudly, but apart from that I am quite fond of Haitians and prefer their cuisine to reindeer burgers and smorgasbord and their music too.

    I have been to Haiti a couple of times and found it pretty fascinating place. Of course what no one ever says is that the Haitians have not been forgiven for kicking out the French and ending slavery in their country 50 years before the United States, however Haitians are very aware of this and find it hard to understand why African Americans did not fight back more.

    In general Haitians would prefer to go to Canada or Europe, or even Brazil, but the US just happens to be awfully close at hand, especially that pendulous peninsula called Florida.

    The thing Haitians haven’t been forgiven for is unleashing the Terror and providing a negative example for future stupid revolutionaries and anti-whites throughout history. Literally no one cares about them ending slavery before the U.S., except as it led to chaos.

    You know you can get their cuisine without importing them en masse, right? (We don’t really need any of them, to be honest, if they let us in to watch them cook.)

    Read More
    • Replies: @ogunsiron
    Tbh, I think very few Whites in the present day know about the events of 1804. So Haiti has in fact been forgiven, a long time ago. I have WN/NS/Altright friends who didn't even know about 1804.

    Most people who harbor negative feelings towards Haiti do so for the contemporary conditions of the country and its people.
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  23. @Jonathan Mason

    Can anyone honestly say they’d rather live in a neighborhood, city, or country full of Haitians rather than one full of Norwegians?
     
    Well, Haitians tend to make more noise and talk rather loudly, but apart from that I am quite fond of Haitians and prefer their cuisine to reindeer burgers and smorgasbord and their music too.

    I have been to Haiti a couple of times and found it pretty fascinating place. Of course what no one ever says is that the Haitians have not been forgiven for kicking out the French and ending slavery in their country 50 years before the United States, however Haitians are very aware of this and find it hard to understand why African Americans did not fight back more.

    In general Haitians would prefer to go to Canada or Europe, or even Brazil, but the US just happens to be awfully close at hand, especially that pendulous peninsula called Florida.

    In general Haitians would prefer to go to Canada or Europe, or even Brazil, but the US just happens to be awfully close at hand, especially that pendulous peninsula called Florida.

    As a sovereign nation, the United States should be able to determine its level of Haitian immigration.

    As for your intense love of Haiti, when are you moving there? Will you raise your family there? Good luck!!!

    Read More
    • Replies: @anonymous
    For obvious reasons, a lot of Haitians escaped to Montreal during the 90s.
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  24. @Jonathan Mason

    Can anyone honestly say they’d rather live in a neighborhood, city, or country full of Haitians rather than one full of Norwegians?
     
    Well, Haitians tend to make more noise and talk rather loudly, but apart from that I am quite fond of Haitians and prefer their cuisine to reindeer burgers and smorgasbord and their music too.

    I have been to Haiti a couple of times and found it pretty fascinating place. Of course what no one ever says is that the Haitians have not been forgiven for kicking out the French and ending slavery in their country 50 years before the United States, however Haitians are very aware of this and find it hard to understand why African Americans did not fight back more.

    In general Haitians would prefer to go to Canada or Europe, or even Brazil, but the US just happens to be awfully close at hand, especially that pendulous peninsula called Florida.

    One thing I will say about Haitians; the ones I have met have all been extremely hard-working. Given the choice between them, and say, Puerto Ricans, I’d probably take the Haitians.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Clifford Brown
    If your vision of the future is Puerto Rico vs. Haiti, then what exactly is the point?

    Either way, you are already living in a extremely poor, hyper-violent, third world society. I would hardly consider that "a win."
    , @bomag

    Given the choice between them, and say, Puerto Ricans, I’d probably take the Haitians.
     
    Why even consider the choice? If we need more people, we should raise our own, or go without.

    The immigration debate has become a vile psychology experiment with the subjects strapped to a chair and receiving electric shocks unless they call for more immigration from more places. The detached proctors note the rising dystopian social friction created by ongoing mass immigration and measure the discomfort needed before someone speaks out.

    , @Lucas McCrudy
    All Puerto Ricans are US citizens and therefore eligible for every means tested welfare program in existence. If the same were true about Haitians I'm sure you'd be singing a different tune with your anecdotal stories about how some groups seem to make such wonderfully docile servants compared with others.
    , @ben tillman

    One thing I will say about Haitians; the ones I have met have all been extremely hard-working. Given the choice between them, and say, Puerto Ricans, I’d probably take the Haitians.
     
    Of course, we don't have to choose. Then again, we don't get to choose.
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  25. @Hapalong Cassidy
    One thing I will say about Haitians; the ones I have met have all been extremely hard-working. Given the choice between them, and say, Puerto Ricans, I’d probably take the Haitians.

    If your vision of the future is Puerto Rico vs. Haiti, then what exactly is the point?

    Either way, you are already living in a extremely poor, hyper-violent, third world society. I would hardly consider that “a win.”

    Read More
    • Agree: bomag
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  26. “Elliott Abrams, JPod’s brother-in-law and the Bush Administration’s top man on Middle East policy (which was a pretty hilarious job for a man who had spent the 1990s campaigning against intermarriage)”

    This of course refers to Abrams’s campaign against Jewish intermarriage. The little detail of Abrams’s ethnic obsession is somehow omitted from his public profiles including from Wikipedia.

    One wonders if the same omission would occur had Abrams campaigned against, say, white or black intermarriage?

    Read More
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  27. @Meretricious
    I have met many hard-working Haitians--try driving a taxi in Manhattan. Think Trump is off base here

    If they are so “hard working” why is their country such a shithole?

    And let’s be honest, driving a cab isn’t particularly challenging, which is why third world immigrants flock to it.

    Read More
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  28. bomag says:
    @Jonathan Mason

    Can anyone honestly say they’d rather live in a neighborhood, city, or country full of Haitians rather than one full of Norwegians?
     
    Well, Haitians tend to make more noise and talk rather loudly, but apart from that I am quite fond of Haitians and prefer their cuisine to reindeer burgers and smorgasbord and their music too.

    I have been to Haiti a couple of times and found it pretty fascinating place. Of course what no one ever says is that the Haitians have not been forgiven for kicking out the French and ending slavery in their country 50 years before the United States, however Haitians are very aware of this and find it hard to understand why African Americans did not fight back more.

    In general Haitians would prefer to go to Canada or Europe, or even Brazil, but the US just happens to be awfully close at hand, especially that pendulous peninsula called Florida.

    In general Haitians would prefer to go to Canada or Europe, or even Brazil…

    If a plane ticket and incentive cash would move them on, that would be a deal.

    Of course what no one ever says is that the Haitians have not been forgiven for kicking out the French and ending slavery in their country 50 years before the United States

    I hear this all the time from the usual crowd who are in the business of manufacturing laughable excuses.

    but apart from that I am quite fond of Haitians and prefer their cuisine…

    And if that’s the best advocacy you can generate, don’t be surprised when the rest of us aren’t too excited about the prospect.

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  29. bomag says:
    @Hapalong Cassidy
    One thing I will say about Haitians; the ones I have met have all been extremely hard-working. Given the choice between them, and say, Puerto Ricans, I’d probably take the Haitians.

    Given the choice between them, and say, Puerto Ricans, I’d probably take the Haitians.

    Why even consider the choice? If we need more people, we should raise our own, or go without.

    The immigration debate has become a vile psychology experiment with the subjects strapped to a chair and receiving electric shocks unless they call for more immigration from more places. The detached proctors note the rising dystopian social friction created by ongoing mass immigration and measure the discomfort needed before someone speaks out.

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  30. bomag says:
    @Meretricious
    I have met many hard-working Haitians--try driving a taxi in Manhattan. Think Trump is off base here

    I have met many hard-working Haitians

    A few hard working cabbies in NY is not a good deal if we have to take in the rest of them.

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  31. @Hapalong Cassidy
    One thing I will say about Haitians; the ones I have met have all been extremely hard-working. Given the choice between them, and say, Puerto Ricans, I’d probably take the Haitians.

    All Puerto Ricans are US citizens and therefore eligible for every means tested welfare program in existence. If the same were true about Haitians I’m sure you’d be singing a different tune with your anecdotal stories about how some groups seem to make such wonderfully docile servants compared with others.

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  32. @Boomercide Now
    Boomers like this think they built America all by themselves with just hard work and optimism. If they can do it, so can Haitians.

    To the extent they understand minority failure, they think Blacks just aren't trying enough because of Democrat brainwashing. Ty'Rone and Shiwanda just need good role models so they can make six figures and retire in a Winnebago.

    If you think I am exaggerating, talk to them.

    Boomer hate is typically the number one sign of a weak male with daddy issues. This weak male needs someone else to blame for his many failures in life. The boomer hater is sad and insecure because his father never gave him a hug.

    If you think I am exaggerating, talk to them.

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  33. anon • Disclaimer says:

    I couldn’t find a more accurate description than shithole.

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  34. anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @JohnnyWalker123
    The Israelis have made their feelings on Africans very clear.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGJVX6jYjI0

    I wonder how (((Kristol))), (((Brooks))), and (((Frum))) feel about this video. I wonder how they feel about Israel's Jewish-only migration policy.

    Israelis give a hearty Jewish welcome to a foreign visitor.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0EnWkpnVek

    Psst…you’re not supposed to notice.

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  35. anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Clifford Brown

    In general Haitians would prefer to go to Canada or Europe, or even Brazil, but the US just happens to be awfully close at hand, especially that pendulous peninsula called Florida.
     
    As a sovereign nation, the United States should be able to determine its level of Haitian immigration.

    As for your intense love of Haiti, when are you moving there? Will you raise your family there? Good luck!!!

    For obvious reasons, a lot of Haitians escaped to Montreal during the 90s.

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  36. ogunsiron says:
    @Jonathan Mason

    Can anyone honestly say they’d rather live in a neighborhood, city, or country full of Haitians rather than one full of Norwegians?
     
    Well, Haitians tend to make more noise and talk rather loudly, but apart from that I am quite fond of Haitians and prefer their cuisine to reindeer burgers and smorgasbord and their music too.

    I have been to Haiti a couple of times and found it pretty fascinating place. Of course what no one ever says is that the Haitians have not been forgiven for kicking out the French and ending slavery in their country 50 years before the United States, however Haitians are very aware of this and find it hard to understand why African Americans did not fight back more.

    In general Haitians would prefer to go to Canada or Europe, or even Brazil, but the US just happens to be awfully close at hand, especially that pendulous peninsula called Florida.

    Of course what no one ever says is that the Haitians have not been forgiven for kicking out the French and ending slavery in their country 50 years before the United States, however Haitians are very aware of this and find it hard to understand why African Americans did not fight back more.
    —–
    Even in 1804, German merchants were in Haiti making money. They were explicitly allowed to settle even though they were White. King Christophe worked with the Germans and the English to try to modernize (i guess it didn’t work) his part of the country. By the mid 19th century, French merchants were back in Haiti, glad to be making money. I read that in the early 19th, american Northerners were quite willing to have relations with Haiti. The South was able to put enough pressure to stop that, though.

    My point is that there was no universal white conspiracy to make Haiti pay. Yes, many racially conscious Whites during the 19th century probably harbored very bad feelings against Haiti, but other Whites were totally willing to turn the page.

    Btw, the fact that a lot of Haitians still think a lot about what the haitian revolution and what happened in 1804 is an argument *against* haitian immigration into White countries.

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  37. ogunsiron says:
    @guest
    The thing Haitians haven't been forgiven for is unleashing the Terror and providing a negative example for future stupid revolutionaries and anti-whites throughout history. Literally no one cares about them ending slavery before the U.S., except as it led to chaos.

    You know you can get their cuisine without importing them en masse, right? (We don't really need any of them, to be honest, if they let us in to watch them cook.)

    Tbh, I think very few Whites in the present day know about the events of 1804. So Haiti has in fact been forgiven, a long time ago. I have WN/NS/Altright friends who didn’t even know about 1804.

    Most people who harbor negative feelings towards Haiti do so for the contemporary conditions of the country and its people.

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  38. @Jonathan Mason

    Can anyone honestly say they’d rather live in a neighborhood, city, or country full of Haitians rather than one full of Norwegians?
     
    Well, Haitians tend to make more noise and talk rather loudly, but apart from that I am quite fond of Haitians and prefer their cuisine to reindeer burgers and smorgasbord and their music too.

    I have been to Haiti a couple of times and found it pretty fascinating place. Of course what no one ever says is that the Haitians have not been forgiven for kicking out the French and ending slavery in their country 50 years before the United States, however Haitians are very aware of this and find it hard to understand why African Americans did not fight back more.

    In general Haitians would prefer to go to Canada or Europe, or even Brazil, but the US just happens to be awfully close at hand, especially that pendulous peninsula called Florida.

    Haitians are very aware of this and find it hard to understand why African Americans did not fight back more.

    So what you’re saying is Haitians can’t into simple arithmetic?

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  39. @Clifford Brown
    A fair portion of American GDP growth arises from simply importing millions of new consumers every year. Billions in government spending from Medicaid to refugee resettlement is premised on a constant inflow. Newcomers juke aggregate demand for everything from housing, Walmart sales, Big Macs to college tuition expenditures. You cut that off and much of our "growth" will be revealed as illusionary. Wall Street, Big Government and Big Non-Profit are completely dependent on the constant inflow of new spenders and clients. Without an ever expanding class of debt slaves, the system collapses upon itself.

    Porter/Kakistocracy has made this observation as well. It’s not labor–we don’t need their labor–it’s consumption. Facebook gets rich whether the eyeballs belong to a French neurosurgeon or a Haitian janitor. Cities have more sales tax. Government contractors building infrastructure have more work. Democrats have more votes. Social workers have more clients.

    The economy is expanding to meet the needs of the expanding economy. It’s not sustainable, but that’s your kids’ problem!

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    • Replies: @ben tillman

    Porter/Kakistocracy has made this observation as well. It’s not labor–we don’t need their labor–it’s consumption.
     
    But why do it this way? You're talking about a cancer feeding indirectly on petroleum. Why doesn't the cancer just feed directly and get 100% of the value of the energy instead of wasting the majority on the production of the things consumed by these people?
    , @E. Rekshun
    Facebook gets rich whether the eyeballs belong to a French neurosurgeon or a Haitian janitor. Cities have more sales tax. Government contractors building infrastructure have more work. Democrats have more votes. Social workers have more clients.

    And more cops, prosecutors, defense attorneys, jailers, etc.

    Puerto Rico is not sending their best...


    Miami Herald, 01/13/18 - A scorned lover wanted someone dead. Contract killers targeted the wrong woman, Florida police say.

    http://www.miamiherald.com/latest-news/article194601594.html#storylink=latest_side

    Florida police say three suspects are in jail and an innocent woman is dead following a botched murder-for-hire plot orchestrated by a scorned lover.

    Osceola County Sheriff Russ Gibson told local media on Friday night that Ishnar Marie Lopez-Ramos was distraught that the man she loved had been seeing another woman, so she hired a couple to track the woman down and kill her.

    Janice Zengotita-Torres, 42, was leaving a Ross Dress for Less near Kissimmee last Sunday night when the suspected contract killers — Alexis Ramos-Rivera, 22, and his girlfriend Glorianmarie Quinones Montes — followed her home and forced Zengotita-Torres into the back of her own car and drove her to an apartment near The Mall at Millenia in Orlando.

    Sheriff Gibson said the suspects then realized Zengotita-Torres was not their intended target, “but continued with their plan of murder and tied the victim with zip ties and then [covered] her head in duct tape and garbage bags,” according to the Sentinel.

    Ramos beat the woman until she passed out, Gibson said, and she eventually died of suffocation from the garbage bags. The couple dumped Zengotita-Torres’ body in Ormond Beach late Sunday or early Monday and then abandoned her car, the sheriff said.
    Lopez-Ramos was arrested early Friday, while Ramos and Quinones Montes were later arrested at an Orange County hotel, the sheriff said.

    All three suspects, originally from Puerto Rico, had recently relocated to Central Florida around Christmas...They were booked on murder charges into the Osceola County Jail.
     

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  40. “Either we let in Haiti’s educated minority, or we admit uneducated Haitian peasants.”

    You heard the man, those are our oooonly two options. No other options out there! Nope! No sir!

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    • Replies: @anon
    Isn't it curious how Israel always seems to have so many options.
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  41. WJ says:
    @Jonathan Mason

    Can anyone honestly say they’d rather live in a neighborhood, city, or country full of Haitians rather than one full of Norwegians?
     
    Well, Haitians tend to make more noise and talk rather loudly, but apart from that I am quite fond of Haitians and prefer their cuisine to reindeer burgers and smorgasbord and their music too.

    I have been to Haiti a couple of times and found it pretty fascinating place. Of course what no one ever says is that the Haitians have not been forgiven for kicking out the French and ending slavery in their country 50 years before the United States, however Haitians are very aware of this and find it hard to understand why African Americans did not fight back more.

    In general Haitians would prefer to go to Canada or Europe, or even Brazil, but the US just happens to be awfully close at hand, especially that pendulous peninsula called Florida.

    You’ve been to Haiti like I am the Pope but hey, this the Internet where everyone can be what they want to be. If you had been there, as I have in the military, you would know that s…hole is actually too good a word for the place.

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    • Replies: @Jonathan Mason

    You’ve been to Haiti like I am the Pope but hey, this the Internet where everyone can be what they want to be. If you had been there, as I have in the military, you would know that s…hole is actually too good a word for the place.
     
    Yes, Your Holiness.

    The first time I went to Petionville and Port au Prince just after the earthquake. I did see the occasional UN military vehicle driving the wrong way up a divided highway and causing traffic jams for miles around the Petionville market, also Anderson Cooper tooling around wearing a tight black T-shirt and riding with his camera crew on the back of a brown pick-up truck. I saw still smouldering bodies lying in the rubble where they had been set alight to prevent them from rotting, and bodies being mass excavated from the rubble of the university, where the wallets of the bodies were removed from their clothing, cash and ID cards extracted, then thrown in a pile.

    I also saw the thousand camping in makeshift tents made of bedsheets outside the crumpled Presidential Place and paying 50 cents a go to have their cell phones charged on gasoline generators which ingenious entrepreneurs had set up along the palace railings.

    I also say how CNN had set themselves up on a nearby balcony and were supplying "demonstrators" with placards to hold up in front of the cameras.

    On a later trip I went up to St. Marc and over to Gonave Island and to some of the fishing villages in the area. I have also been on a couple of short excursions to Ounaminthe in the north, but did not stay overnight.

    You were probably driving around in your tank with the lid shut and saw nothing.
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  42. Sean says:

    Abrams qualifications for pronouncments on international development solutions are not obvious to me. Author of the immigration skeptical book Exodus and renowned developmental economist Paul Collier thinks emigration from Haiti is a problem for that country. Diasporas reduce the cost of emigrating and cause emigration to accelerate uncontrollably over time. Some large countries like India can afford to loose the bright people, Haiti cannot. And they are the ones who will leave.

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  43. Ian M. says:

    Almost every cabbie in my city (in Fairfield County) is Haitian.

    When I lived in Cambridge, MA, the first cabbie I ever got was a local white Bostonian. Turned out to be the only white cabbie I ever got there. Like my current city in Fairfield, ninety percent of the cabbies in Boston and Cambridge are Haitian. I got an Algerian cabbie once in Cambridge, but besides him and the local Bostonian I just mentioned, I can’t remember ever getting a non-Hatian cabbie in Boston (though there probably were a few I can’t remember).

    So what’s up with the Creole cabbie conspiracy in New England?

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  44. Mr. Anon says:
    @Thomas
    I've wondered in the past over previous kerfluffles Trump has gotten into trying to pick and choose between immigrants (e.g., the "Muslim ban"), and I have to wonder again: how much less trouble would Trump have faced if he had just come out for a clean, clear, easy to pitch and easy to administer moratorium on all immigration, save for some very small numbers of very specific categories? At the very least, that would've pulled the Overton window hard in the right direction.

    He should have read to the end of Ann Coulter’s book Adios America; that’s what she called for. As you say, that might be easier to sell. Outside of the TV talking heads who want to brown and drown America or those who are paid, lying stooges, are there really that many people in the U.S. who think that it just isn’t crowded enough?

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  45. @Boomercide Now
    Boomers like this think they built America all by themselves with just hard work and optimism. If they can do it, so can Haitians.

    To the extent they understand minority failure, they think Blacks just aren't trying enough because of Democrat brainwashing. Ty'Rone and Shiwanda just need good role models so they can make six figures and retire in a Winnebago.

    If you think I am exaggerating, talk to them.

    “BOomercide now”?

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  46. @Clifford Brown
    A fair portion of American GDP growth arises from simply importing millions of new consumers every year. Billions in government spending from Medicaid to refugee resettlement is premised on a constant inflow. Newcomers juke aggregate demand for everything from housing, Walmart sales, Big Macs to college tuition expenditures. You cut that off and much of our "growth" will be revealed as illusionary. Wall Street, Big Government and Big Non-Profit are completely dependent on the constant inflow of new spenders and clients. Without an ever expanding class of debt slaves, the system collapses upon itself.

    Wow, simply and well stated.

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  47. anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Jonathan Mason

    Can anyone honestly say they’d rather live in a neighborhood, city, or country full of Haitians rather than one full of Norwegians?
     
    Well, Haitians tend to make more noise and talk rather loudly, but apart from that I am quite fond of Haitians and prefer their cuisine to reindeer burgers and smorgasbord and their music too.

    I have been to Haiti a couple of times and found it pretty fascinating place. Of course what no one ever says is that the Haitians have not been forgiven for kicking out the French and ending slavery in their country 50 years before the United States, however Haitians are very aware of this and find it hard to understand why African Americans did not fight back more.

    In general Haitians would prefer to go to Canada or Europe, or even Brazil, but the US just happens to be awfully close at hand, especially that pendulous peninsula called Florida.

    Do you actually LIVE in a Haitian neighborhood? Have you MOVED to Haiti?

    You talk the talk sport, but you don’t walk the walk!

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  48. Elli says:

    I went to school with a couple of Haitian immigrants. They told me about a fatal poisoning stemming from jealousy over grades in school (you NEVER accept a gift of food from outside your family), about a voodoo curse purchased by a jilted girl’s family – the jilting suitor beat his genitals with a rock until he died.

    The male immigrant told me about AIDS rife in his devout congregation in Haiti. About his brother-in-law’s attempt to start a store there so people could buy basic needs – a shipping container full of goods from Florida, stripped to the walls in one night a quarter mile from the police station. About his infidelities – his wife had just given birth to their fourth child. About his friend who took a flight from Haiti to Miami and went to an emergency room to “get his health checked out” courtesy of the American taxpayer and insurance payer.

    The female immigrant told me how her father became rich when Duvalier fell – that is the way to become rich in Haiti – climb up a regime change – and how they had to leave when Aristide was overthrown – he and his twelve daughters by four women, scattered to America and Europe. Her husband, another Haitian immigrant, is a very striving man, has a white collar job and two businesses, and tells her “Don’t act black,” when she spends too much. But his four brothers, now US citizens, are layabouts. Her godfather is busy pulling Medicaid scams.

    Women in Port-au-Prince sell mud cookies, and people buy them to fill their bellies.

    The two Haitians needed extra assistance to get through the program. So did some of the white students. The other two black students in the program, both immigrants, dropped out because the program was too fast-paced, none of the white students did.

    Haiti IS a hell-hole. So are a lot of African countries. It’s racist and it’s true. And we can do just fine without immigrants from those countries – we don’t NEED them. We’d be better off without most of them. And if those hell-holes send us only their very best, those poor countries will be worse off than before.

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  49. anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Jonathan Mason

    Can anyone honestly say they’d rather live in a neighborhood, city, or country full of Haitians rather than one full of Norwegians?
     
    Well, Haitians tend to make more noise and talk rather loudly, but apart from that I am quite fond of Haitians and prefer their cuisine to reindeer burgers and smorgasbord and their music too.

    I have been to Haiti a couple of times and found it pretty fascinating place. Of course what no one ever says is that the Haitians have not been forgiven for kicking out the French and ending slavery in their country 50 years before the United States, however Haitians are very aware of this and find it hard to understand why African Americans did not fight back more.

    In general Haitians would prefer to go to Canada or Europe, or even Brazil, but the US just happens to be awfully close at hand, especially that pendulous peninsula called Florida.

    They didn’t “kick out” the French. They slaughtered them all. They even invited the few who got away back in just so they could slaughter them too.

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  50. anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous
    https://twitter.com/VicenteFoxQue/status/951586161931235328

    What is Mexico’s “greatness” built on?

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  51. anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Covfefe Anan
    “Either we let in Haiti’s educated minority, or we admit uneducated Haitian peasants.”

    You heard the man, those are our oooonly two options. No other options out there! Nope! No sir!

    Isn’t it curious how Israel always seems to have so many options.

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  52. anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Meretricious
    I have met many hard-working Haitians--try driving a taxi in Manhattan. Think Trump is off base here

    What exactly is such a big deal about being a cab driver? How many brain surgeons do we get from Haiti sport? You mean to say New York never had any cabbies until Haitians came to the rescue?

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  53. @The Anti-Gnostic
    Porter/Kakistocracy has made this observation as well. It's not labor--we don't need their labor--it's consumption. Facebook gets rich whether the eyeballs belong to a French neurosurgeon or a Haitian janitor. Cities have more sales tax. Government contractors building infrastructure have more work. Democrats have more votes. Social workers have more clients.

    The economy is expanding to meet the needs of the expanding economy. It's not sustainable, but that's your kids' problem!

    Porter/Kakistocracy has made this observation as well. It’s not labor–we don’t need their labor–it’s consumption.

    But why do it this way? You’re talking about a cancer feeding indirectly on petroleum. Why doesn’t the cancer just feed directly and get 100% of the value of the energy instead of wasting the majority on the production of the things consumed by these people?

    Read More
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  54. @Hapalong Cassidy
    One thing I will say about Haitians; the ones I have met have all been extremely hard-working. Given the choice between them, and say, Puerto Ricans, I’d probably take the Haitians.

    One thing I will say about Haitians; the ones I have met have all been extremely hard-working. Given the choice between them, and say, Puerto Ricans, I’d probably take the Haitians.

    Of course, we don’t have to choose. Then again, we don’t get to choose.

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  55. Corvinus says:
    @Clifford Brown
    A fair portion of American GDP growth arises from simply importing millions of new consumers every year. Billions in government spending from Medicaid to refugee resettlement is premised on a constant inflow. Newcomers juke aggregate demand for everything from housing, Walmart sales, Big Macs to college tuition expenditures. You cut that off and much of our "growth" will be revealed as illusionary. Wall Street, Big Government and Big Non-Profit are completely dependent on the constant inflow of new spenders and clients. Without an ever expanding class of debt slaves, the system collapses upon itself.

    “A fair portion of American GDP growth arises from simply importing millions of new consumers every year.”

    Any specific data lending support to this assertion?

    “Without an ever expanding class of debt slaves, the system collapses upon itself.”

    Welcome to the new normal. Old economic paradigms need not necessarily apply.

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  56. @WJ
    You've been to Haiti like I am the Pope but hey, this the Internet where everyone can be what they want to be. If you had been there, as I have in the military, you would know that s...hole is actually too good a word for the place.

    You’ve been to Haiti like I am the Pope but hey, this the Internet where everyone can be what they want to be. If you had been there, as I have in the military, you would know that s…hole is actually too good a word for the place.

    Yes, Your Holiness.

    The first time I went to Petionville and Port au Prince just after the earthquake. I did see the occasional UN military vehicle driving the wrong way up a divided highway and causing traffic jams for miles around the Petionville market, also Anderson Cooper tooling around wearing a tight black T-shirt and riding with his camera crew on the back of a brown pick-up truck. I saw still smouldering bodies lying in the rubble where they had been set alight to prevent them from rotting, and bodies being mass excavated from the rubble of the university, where the wallets of the bodies were removed from their clothing, cash and ID cards extracted, then thrown in a pile.

    I also saw the thousand camping in makeshift tents made of bedsheets outside the crumpled Presidential Place and paying 50 cents a go to have their cell phones charged on gasoline generators which ingenious entrepreneurs had set up along the palace railings.

    I also say how CNN had set themselves up on a nearby balcony and were supplying “demonstrators” with placards to hold up in front of the cameras.

    On a later trip I went up to St. Marc and over to Gonave Island and to some of the fishing villages in the area. I have also been on a couple of short excursions to Ounaminthe in the north, but did not stay overnight.

    You were probably driving around in your tank with the lid shut and saw nothing.

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  57. @The Anti-Gnostic
    Porter/Kakistocracy has made this observation as well. It's not labor--we don't need their labor--it's consumption. Facebook gets rich whether the eyeballs belong to a French neurosurgeon or a Haitian janitor. Cities have more sales tax. Government contractors building infrastructure have more work. Democrats have more votes. Social workers have more clients.

    The economy is expanding to meet the needs of the expanding economy. It's not sustainable, but that's your kids' problem!

    Facebook gets rich whether the eyeballs belong to a French neurosurgeon or a Haitian janitor. Cities have more sales tax. Government contractors building infrastructure have more work. Democrats have more votes. Social workers have more clients.

    And more cops, prosecutors, defense attorneys, jailers, etc.

    Puerto Rico is not sending their best…

    Miami Herald, 01/13/18 – A scorned lover wanted someone dead. Contract killers targeted the wrong woman, Florida police say.

    http://www.miamiherald.com/latest-news/article194601594.html#storylink=latest_side

    Florida police say three suspects are in jail and an innocent woman is dead following a botched murder-for-hire plot orchestrated by a scorned lover.

    Osceola County Sheriff Russ Gibson told local media on Friday night that Ishnar Marie Lopez-Ramos was distraught that the man she loved had been seeing another woman, so she hired a couple to track the woman down and kill her.

    Janice Zengotita-Torres, 42, was leaving a Ross Dress for Less near Kissimmee last Sunday night when the suspected contract killers — Alexis Ramos-Rivera, 22, and his girlfriend Glorianmarie Quinones Montes — followed her home and forced Zengotita-Torres into the back of her own car and drove her to an apartment near The Mall at Millenia in Orlando.

    Sheriff Gibson said the suspects then realized Zengotita-Torres was not their intended target, “but continued with their plan of murder and tied the victim with zip ties and then [covered] her head in duct tape and garbage bags,” according to the Sentinel.

    Ramos beat the woman until she passed out, Gibson said, and she eventually died of suffocation from the garbage bags. The couple dumped Zengotita-Torres’ body in Ormond Beach late Sunday or early Monday and then abandoned her car, the sheriff said.
    Lopez-Ramos was arrested early Friday, while Ramos and Quinones Montes were later arrested at an Orange County hotel, the sheriff said.

    All three suspects, originally from Puerto Rico, had recently relocated to Central Florida around Christmas…They were booked on murder charges into the Osceola County Jail.

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