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From Slate:

“It’s This Invisible System of Harm”
The only way to tell if the Apple Card is biased against women is to unmask its algorithm.
By AARON MAK

NOV 11, 20196:10 PM

David Heinemeier Hansson, a well-known software engineer, posted a viral Twitter thread last week denouncing the Apple Card as sexist after its algorithm determined that he deserved a credit limit 20 times higher than his wife’s. In a blog post, his wife, Jamie Heinemeier Hansson, explained that there was no apparent reason for the discrepancy, writing, “I have had credit in the U.S. far longer than David. I have never had a single late payment. I do not have any debts. David and I share all financial accounts, and my very good credit score is higher than David’s.” Apple co-founder Steve Wozniak later revealed that the algorithm had given him a credit line 10 times higher than his wife’s, also for no apparent reason.

The thread sparked an uproar on Twitter over the weekend, and the New York State Department of Financial Services announced on Saturday that it was launching an investigation into the credit card program, which Apple operates jointly with Goldman Sachs. The department declared, “Financial services companies are responsible for ensuring the algorithms they use do not even unintentionally discriminate against protected groups.”

To understand how an algorithm could be systematically giving female Apple Card customers lower credit lines than men—and to discuss how the opacity of such algorithms often allows discrimination to persist—I spoke to Cathy O’Neil, a mathematician and the author of Weapons of Math Destruction: How Big Data Increases Inequality and Threatens Democracy.

When will American capitalists finally allow rich men’s wives to go as much into debt as they want?

That is the Crisis of Our Age.

Seriously, The Woz, more than any other single human being, invented the Personal Computer, which, personally, probably has done more for my life than any other invention by a living inventor. So, I want The Woz to be happy, which probably involves the current Mrs. Woz being happy, which probably involves the latest Mrs. Woz being able to spend lavishly.

 
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  1. Has she demonstrated the ability to create billions?

  2. mmack says:

    ” So, I want The Woz to be happy, which probably involves the current Mrs. Woz being happy, which probably involves the latest Mrs. Woz being able to spend lavishly.”

    Looking at the marital timeline you posted Steve it looks like The Woz is due for a trade up/trade in, whether it be his decision or hers. Remember Woz, when you marry for the fifth time they don’t pin a medal on your chest and call you an ace.

    • LOL: Jim Don Bob
  3. jim jones says:

    Surely the well-known homosexual Alan Turing invented the digital computer, maybe Sailer is being homophobic

    • Replies: @naivetheorist
  4. the current Mrs. Woz

    Or rather, Mrs. The Woz

    … the Personal Computer, which, personally, probably has done more for my life than any other invention by a living inventor.

    The Woz, if you’re reading this, please send Steve a new Mac mini or MacBook with all the RAM. Also please throw in a schweet 4k monitor. k thx

    • Replies: @Lot
  5. My admiration for The Woz is second to none, but he did not invent the personal computer.

    I was using a Hewlett Packard desktop computer with HP BASIC built in before the Apple 1 was built. In fact The Woz had used one of those as well.

    What the first personal computer actually was is up for some debate, but I’m going to stick my neck out and say it was some version of DEC’s PDP-8, which was introduced in ’67 or ’68, and given the four or five year tax amortization cycles and businesses replacing them with the PDP-11 or the DG equivalent Nova, they started showing up relatively cheap on the secondhand market in ’73 or ’74 and people would put them in the rumpus room. They ran on 12o vac, didn’t need chilled water or forced cold air, and the CPU and a tape drive or DEC pack drive would fit in a full height 19″ relay rack. Five grand would get a bootable system with a terminal and maybe a printer, about what a deluxe McIntosh stereo system cost with a decent pair of speakers and a open reel tape deck.

    It’s true that these were not intended for personal home use, but they were so deployed in some instances. A few financial types even bought similar systems brand new and got fractional T-1 lines ran to the house for trading purposes, perhaps the inspiration for the Bloomberg Terminal. I knew of travel agents with SABRE terminals in their houses and either acoustic modems or fractional T-1’s at the time when Airport ( the original with Dino and Jackie Bisset) was still in theaters.

    The HP units were in fact intended as “personal computers” in every sense of the term, but they were pretty crappy for what we’d later call “productivity” applications. They had odd, non QWERTY keyboards and only a single LED strip and a cash register like strip thermal printer for I/O, and though they used ASCII, there were no conventional I/O ports, just the godawful HP-IB. They were often used for controlling HP test and medical equipment, but still, they were a computer. They had I/O, storage, and were programmable in any of several higher languages.

    The Xerox Alto predated even them, but they were not offered for open sale: they were used internally at Xerox PARC and later given to colleges. They were intended for a single user in an interactive, rather than batch mode,though.

    The Apple 1 wasn’t even the first “hobby” computer marketed not to businesses but strictly to individuals: that distinction goes to the Altair and other S-100 bus systems. The Homebrew Computer Club was already ” a thing” when the Steves and that other guy founded Apple.

    That said: the Apple II was in many ways by far the best of its generation of 8 bit single user computer systems, and without its success IBM would never have built the PC, which made the single user “personal computer” a thing in the business world. The Apple II would have been even better had Woz ante’d up and used the Motorola 6800 rather than the lame 6502, but Motorola overpriced their CPUs in the interest of short term profits and wound up spinning off their microprocessor business for comparative peanuts (as Freescale) while the inferior Intel became overwhelmingly dominant.

  6. Lot says:
    @Jenner Ickham Errican

    You missed my “why 4k monitors aren’t right for boomers” comment.

    “ When you get your new monitor, a lower resolution one will be cheaper and have bigger pixels, so easier to read. In other words, probably best not to get the 4k monitor.
    4k can make text tiny. The software is supposed to adjust for this by using more pixels per letter, but it doesn’t always work right. Maybe Apple has figured out a way around it, but Windows hasn’t, especially older software.
    The two common resolutions for 32 inch are 1080p (first gen HD) and 1440p. 1080 is probably too low a resolution for 32 inch desktop use and is better for gaming at a longer distance or things like electronic signs.
    The next one up is called 1440p, QHD, or 2560×1440. That is the one I’d suggest. It will also use less electricity, generate less heat, and tax your laptop less than a 4k.
    Not much video content is 4k anyway, but that could change in a few years. Digital photos have long been more than 4k and will look better on the 4k monitor. But these two advantages I think are outweighed by the other issues and higher price of 4k.”

  7. Ano says:

    Yes, pull the mask off this algorithmic villian!

    It’s sexist to stop a rich lady from spending whatever the hell she wants of somebody else’s money.

    Just ask the 52 trillion dollar woman Liz Warren.

  8. El Dato says:

    Non-redlined credit cards rotting in women’s purses!!

    On 11/11, no less. It’s practically a Versailles treaty in levels of ignominy.

  9. Steve2 [AKA "StillSteve2Still"] says:

    Do we believe The Narrative or Algorithmic Heresy?

    Is a bunch of code (ahem) driven by a bundle of data that creates and manipulates huge matrices actually an algorithm?

    Or is it just another poop pot of pain that needs furrowed brow concentration to understand even for a simplified case?

    Good luck to our Overlords in actually sorting this out, as opposed to just writing vague directives.

  10. Lot says:
    @donvonburg

    “ That said: the Apple II was in many ways by far the best of its generation of 8 bit single user computer systems”

    Apple IIe was in production for 11 years, 83 to 93. I don’t think any other microcomputer comes close. Plenty of individual Apple IIe lasted 25 years or more of daily use in schools.

    • Replies: @Ola
  11. @Lot

    For what he is using it for the cheapest macbook or mini will do fine with any common $129 monitor.

    Unfortunately, Apple does not offer a good docking solution for its laptops anymore so to use one with an external monitor, keyboard and mouse you need a rat’s tangle of cables, dongles, etc. They have gotten rid of all the ports except for that Thunderbolt 3 ridiculous deal, so you need dongles with USB and Ethernet ports, HDMI or VGA video, etc., etc.

    I can use a Mac just fine but I need a mouse, I can not and will not use the touchpad on current Apple products. I much prefer the standard two button and center wheel Microsoft mouse even on a Mac.

    • Replies: @The Alarmist
  12. Charon says:
    @donvonburg

    Wow, testimony from another age.

    I mean this as a compliment BTW.

  13. @Lot

    I had some trouble reading your comment, but all I had to do was double tap my mouse and your writing jumped right out at me and got as big as the screen itself. Whoa! Then I had to get up and change my Depends.

    • LOL: BB753
    • Replies: @Lot
    , @Jim Christian
  14. bomag says:

    “Financial services companies are responsible for ensuring the algorithms they use do not even unintentionally discriminate against protected groups.”

    A gold mine for disparate impact lawsuits.

    No doubt an enterprising person, maybe even someone at the New York State Department of Financial Services, will take note of this under-served market and swoop in to pick up the money lying on the table.

  15. “Financial services companies are responsible for ensuring the algorithms they use do not even unintentionally discriminate against protected groups.”

    But if they discriminate against unprotected groups, well that’s fine. In fact, this is made to happen by the very existence of protected groups.

    Note too the use of “unintentionally.” This means that disparate impact can be the result of a completely fair system but still be called wrong.

    • Agree: bomag
    • Replies: @El Dato
  16. Anon7 says:

    OTOH, this could increase the productivity of American men. When science fiction writer Philip K. Dick met his dark-haired wives (he referred to one as “destiny in a miniskirt”), he was hopelessly infatuated. He remarked that California law required that if, for example, his wife walked into a dealership and drove out in a Cadillac, he was required to pay for it. This resulted in amazing (amphetamine-fueled) productivity; he wrote at the rate of one novel per month in the early Sixties. Granted he did this at least partly by mining his short stories of the Fifties for material, but still.

  17. Also The Woz has a slight case of retrograde amnesia. Apple certainly knows about this since its what ended his career at Apple.

  18. Ola says: • Website
    @Lot

    C64 was in production from 1982 to the closure of Commodore in 1994. They were not as sturdily built as the Apple IIe, but mine (bought in 1984) works fine today and so does my Vic 20 (bought in 1982).

    • Replies: @Dissident
    , @Jack D
  19. El Dato says:
    @Buzz Mohawk

    What it means is “I want continuous tuning to follow my ever-changing whims about what I consider ‘fair’”

    The only way out is to give people their “fair” algorithm in exchange for upfront payment.

    Repeat post, because “fairness” is not a value between 0 and 1, it’s more like length contraction in Special Relativity.

    Tutorial: 21 fairness definitions and their politics

    Arvind Narayanan

    Published on 1 Mar 2018

    Computer scientists and statisticians have devised numerous mathematical criteria to define what it means for a classifier or a model to be fair. The proliferation of these definitions represents an attempt to make technical sense of the complex, shifting social understanding of fairness. Thus, these definitions are laden with values and politics, and seemingly technical discussions about mathematical definitions in fact implicate weighty normative questions. A core component of these technical discussions has been the discovery of trade-offs between different (mathematical) notions of fairness; these trade-offs deserve attention beyond the technical community.

    This tutorial has two goals. The first is to explain the technical definitions. In doing so, I will aim to make explicit the values embedded in each of them. This will help policymakers and others better understand what is truly at stake in debates about fairness criteria (such as individual fairness versus group fairness, or statistical parity versus error-rate equality). It will also help computer scientists recognize that the proliferation of definitions is to be celebrated, not shunned, and that the search for one true definition is not a fruitful direction, as technical considerations cannot adjudicate moral debates.

    My second goal is to highlight technical observations and discoveries that deserve broader consideration. Many of these can be seen as “trolley problems” for algorithmic fairness​, and beg to be connected to philosophical theories of justice. I hope to make it easier for ethics scholars, philosophers, and domain experts to approach this territory.

  20. @Lot

    Hey it’s the guy who invented the internet!

    Aging is an inconvenient truth.

  21. I don’t suppose she could go over to mostly cash. Is she buying all that much online?

  22. Alice says:

    Since all of the algorithms tie an individual to their earned income, clearly the only non sexistracistethnicist solution to have all people have the same available credit! Everyone should be able to borrow as much as they want. Duh. let’s let Warren and Sanders’ personal borrowing be the national peg. Everyone can get a mortgage as big as Warren did or Sanders did.

  23. Anon[216] • Disclaimer says:

    Any ideas? I think we can assume that there is no specific, uh, sexual dimorphism in the algorithm.

    Yes, community property, but could the algorithm somehow be taking into account the source of the income, in the sense of whose salary it comes from? Could there be some sort of weird connection with divorce law? It’s almost always the wife who runs up a huge tab just before filing, and wives file most divorces. In the specific cases we have before us, the man’s limit was crazy high, and the woman’s was high enough to cause pain if continued monthly (based only on income, not capital), but not high enough to cause insolvency within a couple of months. Do credit card companies tend to find themselves involved in divorce cases where neither side wants to pay up? Putting wives on a short leash would solve that.

  24. Hodag says:

    Is anyone else upset that a Wozniak heir has not married one of Brian Bosworth’s kids?

  25. @Lot

    You missed my “why 4k monitors aren’t right for boomers” comment.

    Nah, I read it before and disagree. I know boomers using 27” and larger 4K screens for all kinds of tasks and none of them have perfect eyesight. A 32” screen would probably fit just right in Steve’s limited workspace if installed properly.

  26. @Buzz Mohawk

    I had some trouble reading your comment, but all I had to do was double tap my mouse and your writing jumped right out at me and got as big as the screen itself. Whoa! Then I had to get up and change my Depends.

    Yer a riot, Buzz! I have a three-monitor rig, all 4K-capable. When something is too small for my old, tired, 62-year-old Cow-Browns with the 20/15 vision, I just do a control-scroll and like MAGIC, the print comes into play. At which point, in my amazement, I go change MY Depends, also.

    Youngsters are morons.

  27. Mr. Anon says:

    OT: The Atlantic frets about civil war:

    https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/12/how-america-ends/600757/

    But the biggest driver might be demographic change. The United States is undergoing a transition perhaps no rich and stable democracy has ever experienced:

    Gosh, I wonder why? Maybe because no country can replace its population and remain a rich and stable democracy?

    The Atlantic is emblematic of the United States – founded by Old Stock Americans, and then taken over by members of some other tribe – a really tribal kind of tribe.

  28. Dwright says:

    This boomer uses a 28” 4k monitor. No issues, you can adjust screen settings if you wish.
    Steve, Woz was a pioneer but surely not the only one and not the first.

  29. So, I want The Woz to be happy, which probably involves the current Mrs. Woz being happy

    ‘Happy wife, happy life’?

    r/MGTOW for you Steve.

  30. J says: • Website

    I believe the algorithm was right. Online records show that Janet K Hill, the fourth wife, was at one point in her life known as Janet Bonnett and Janet Craig. I do not know why. The fact she is married to a wealthy serial divorcer proves instability in her affairs, since the Wozniak wives do not seem to last long. I know nothing, but assume the algorithm knows more facts and knows how to calculate its probabilities. Some husbands and wives ask the banks to discretely request their approval for their partner’s spending. It is standard procedure when a divorce is being considered. Ms Hill should take this possibility into account.

  31. These reports are pretty meaningless, because they do not say how much the Apple card allowed as a card limit for the husband and for the wife.

    If the limit for one was $20,000 and for the other only $1000, that would be ridiculous. On the other hand if the limits were $2 million and $100,00, then who cares?

    Credit Limits

    As with any other credit card, there is a credit limit for Apple Card that will vary from person to person. A better credit score means a higher credit limit, and credit limit also increases over time.

    Also, typically credit card limits and credit scores will improve if the holder uses the card and repays their debt. A person who always pays off the balance at the end of the month when the bill comes in will not necessarily increase their limit or credit score as much as someone who borrows to the limit and then pays off a large amount a bit later and spends more money with the card.

    Getting a good credit score and a high credit card limit does not mean that you handle money responsibly, it means that the credit card company thinks that it can make a lot of money off you without too much risk.

    For most people credit card spending is not a good thing, as it is an easy way of getting into debt which many people are not able to repay, so limits on spending are a sensible protection.

    I very rarely use a credit card, as a debit card can be used for unlimited purchases so long as you have the cash in the bank. For major purchases like cars, boats, and homes, other loans can be obtained.

    I remember at the time of the OJ Simpson trial I was shocked to learn that prosecutor Marcia Clark had over $40,000 in credit card debt–worth even more money than today at the time. No wonder she sold out and parlayed her public fame into a media and authoring career.

    • Replies: @everybodyhatesscott
  32. Has anyone noticed that a lot of the censorship now coming from Silicon Valley is from the female relatives of the Billionaires who built the companies?

    Zuckerberg’s sister or people like silly Melinda Gates.

    • Agree: Desiderius
    • Replies: @Dumbo
  33. Anon[121] • Disclaimer says:

    Now let’s compare car insurance rates between married couples to see if there’s any other discrimination, accidental or intentional, that needs a proper social media outrage.

  34. FPD72 says:
    @Hodag

    The Woz and The Boz? How would the kids ever meet? I assume they travel in completely different circles.

    The Boz is now making a living as the sheriff of Fansville in Dr. Pepper commercials, after making several commercials with Bo Jackson for Nissan that riffed on The Boz getting trucked by Bo on a famous Monday Night game back in the 1980s.

    • Replies: @Hodag
  35. Barnard says:

    Wikipedia also has hideous and insane actress Kathy Griffin as Woz’s “partner” from 2007-2008. That has to be trolling right? What could possibly have been the appeal for him?

  36. theMann says:
    @donvonburg

    Awesome trip down memory lane! Btw, the Tandy 1000 came out the same year, 1983, as the Apple IIe, using the the 8088 chip and MS-DOS instead of Apple DOS. If I remember correctly. It was also much more peripheral friendly. And as I remember, the system could also run most Apple software at the time, with the installation of a compatibility board. And of course, affordable16 color graphics.

    • Replies: @Lot
  37. The detective in me smells a rat here. Apple Card, looking for traction in a confusing and oversaturated consumer debt market, invents a “scandal” wherein the evil algorithms are the villain, while the Apple Card emerges as the woke champion of feminist spendthrifts. They can say, “we’re the only ones who took on the algos — and won!” And the Woz himself weighs in, building that brand until the day he dies.

    • Agree: Dtbb
  38. A good question is why in the heck does Wozniak have a 4th wife?

    Divorce from #2 should have ended the issue–and any young man naivete.

    Does the guy have no friends who can tell him to stop putting a ring on it?

  39. DHH is a Dane with a double-barreled German and Swedish surname? If he’s so proud of Mrs HH, why is she not mentioned at all on his Wikibio? Or his parents?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Heinemeier_Hansson#Personal_life

    This is all very weird. Almost as weird as Woz being a proficient dancer and serial husband.

  40. songbird says:

    I’ve always wanted to take a tape measure and put it around the Woz’s head. Looks like it is pretty big.

  41. @donvonburg

    Learned more from this one comment than a lifetime on Twitter.

  42. @AnotherDad

    Steve, you’ve got marriage happiness dynamics exactly backwards. Evidently so does Woz.

    • Replies: @Thomm
  43. res says:
    @donvonburg

    Good comment. How about “popularize” rather than “invent”?

    P.S. Any idea what the power consumption of that PDP-8 at home would have been?

    P.P.S. For some hard core geekery check out this PDP-8/i restoration article:
    http://www.ricomputermuseum.org/Home/equipment/pdp-8-i/dec-pdp-8i-restoration-blog
    And some good background including how the technology and pricing changed over 10 years:
    https://jeelabs.org/article/1607a/

    PDP-8 – 1965..1968 – 4K (12-bit word) memory, 1.5 µs memory cycle time – $18,000
    PDP-8/i – 1968..1971 – M-series “flip-chips” with wirewrap backplane – $12,800
    PDP-8/e – 1970..1978 – SSI/MSI 3-board design, bus instead of backplane – $6,500
    PDP-8/a – 1974..1984 – single-board CPU, “workstation” with diskettes – $1,835

    Much more at http://homepage.cs.uiowa.edu/~jones/pdp8/models/

  44. @donvonburg

    …when the Steves and that other guy founded Apple.

    “That other guy” is Armas Clifford Markkula, Jr., a.k.a. Mike, a fourth-generation Finnish-Californian. (Sort of the Kristi Yamaguchi of tech.) He was born in LA, and it appears that the pronunciation of his surname has been Hispanicized.

    ¡Karamba! I can hear Lagertha’s fingernails on the blackboard as I write…

  45. Mike1 says:

    I agree that it is weird to care about this issue if you have money.

    I have actually researched the people running this previously for a different reason. Based on what I know of the people the odds this is simply a mistake is huge.

    Regardless of opinions this is a big deal from a legal perspective: the odds Goldman has really screwed up here is huge. It is VERY illegal to lend differently with the same inputs. The only possible way they can avoid problems here is if the wives inputted radically different income figures.

    • Replies: @AnotherDad
  46. Steve Jobs was the great genius who could always find lieutenants to carry out his grand visions. After they parted ways, Jobs made historic accomplishments decade after decade while Wozniak had a guest appearance on the The Big Bang Theory sitcom.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
  47. @AnotherDad

    A good question is why in the heck does Wozniak have a 4th wife?

    Divorce from #2 should have ended the issue–and any young man naivete.

    Does the guy have no friends who can tell him to stop putting a ring on it?

    You have to imagine that men so interested in computers – particularly in the early days – just do not have the mind or temperament for seducing women. The actual human woman is something of an inscrutable obstacle to be overcome because she’s attached to the fun bits. You can see this being confounding to a computer geek, who would probably favor a constant variable (stable and predictable companionship and sex) to the uncertainty of chasing women even with his fame and money, permitting him much more time and mental energy to pursue his true passions.

    If one leaves, it’s probably the case that a guy like Wozniak seeks out a suitable replacement part so that he can return to his computing.

  48. Whiskey says: • Website
    @AnotherDad

    No fixing beta.

    • LOL: Abe
    • Replies: @Barnard
  49. Anon[216] • Disclaimer says:

    Goldman Sachs has spoken:

    1. Sex and marital status are not inputs to the algorithm. The algorithm does not know these pieces of information.

    2. In a credit record, being an authorized account user doesn’t build credit; you need to be the primary account holder.

    Wives who have piggybacked on their husband’s credit cards would get a lower credit limit than wives who have applied for independent credit cards on their own.

    It’s not clear to me if GS is saying they compute an original credit score using these rules, or whether they are explaining how normal credit scores work. The Ruby on Rails guy explicitly said his wife had a higher credit rating than him.

    On another matter, researching “community property,” it’s pretty much a divorce law thing, and does not directly impact how lenders deal with credit applicants.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
  50. @Hodag

    A junior Woz is much more likely to marry the Poz rather than a junior Boz. And probably move down to Oz.

    But probably won’t marry any sprogs from the Cos, so I guess that’s a silver lining.

  51. ‘… Apple co-founder Steve Wozniak later revealed that the algorithm had given him a credit line 10 times higher than his wife’s, also for no apparent reason…’

    I find it bizarre that all these wives have separate credit cards at all.

  52. Neoconned says:

    Oh whine whine Mrs. Wiz has to ask for the cash before going on an $8k dollar spending spree….

    Anyway guys I’ve been playing with this in my head…..we have the apocalyptic option it seems of allowing 2 billion plus Africans to swamp Europe and the Americas…..perhaps we shouldn’t “pick up a ten dollar bill in front of a bulldozer that’s moving” and we should pick our battles….

    What’s say we throw in the towel on something as small as DACA and in exchange end chain legal immigration but say increase foreign aid to Latin America and encourage Latin America to close its doors as well to the coming African locust swarm.

    A new “Good Neighbor Policy” in anticipation of the coming much larger issue…..or to use a Game of Thrones reference…..John Snow unifying the human factions to stop the Ice King and his zombie hordes….

    Crime in LA is currently at 1960s levels and most Hispanics I met while out there were warm, friendly ppl….

    Sure there are gangs, criminals etc but compare that to the extinction level existential threat of billion plus African immigration and a few million Latinos doesnt seem so bad.

    And he’ll, encourage female immigration ages 18 to 44 to the States of single women….itll probably boost our birth rate as Autochon and others have noted.

    Get dumped by a feminist? Pick you up a hot latina gf or wife and watch her steam in bitter jealousy when she finds out she’s a decade or less from cat lady spinster status….

  53. c matt says:

    I have never had a single late payment. I do not have any debts.

    Well, there you go. The algorithm looks for impulsive, compulsive spenders who are willing to go into hock. How else are they going to make coin off you?

  54. @Jonathan Mason

    “I very rarely use a credit card, as a debit card can be used for unlimited purchases so long as you have the cash in the bank.”

    If you’re the financially responsible type who doesn’t have issues with spending too much, you should basically never use a debit card. Credit cards have much more protection. If someone steals your debit card, they’re stealing from you. If some steals your credit card, they’re stealing from Visa.

    • Replies: @Anon
  55. Tipsy says:

    David Heinemeier Hansson and Jamie Heinemeier Hansson. Are these SJWs that took each others family name to signal how enlightened they are?

    • Replies: @ScarletNumber
  56. Thomm says:
    @Desiderius

    What do you expect from beta males?

    • Replies: @Desiderius
  57. No. Mike Markkula came along much later, and showed them how to run a real company. They were keeping receipts in a cigar box before Mike, and didn’t have a proper accounting system.
    Tbe “other guy” was Ronald Wayne. He sold 10% of Apple for $800.
    https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2018/08/02/why-ronald-wayne-sold-his-10-percent-stake-in-apple-for-800-dollars.html

    • Replies: @MalePaleStale
  58. eah says:

    OT

    Be sure to watch the video.

    San Francisco’s new DA pledges not to prosecute public urination, other quality-of-life-crimes

    Note the preponderance of young females, including the iconic blue-haired woman.

  59. hhsiii says:

    OT. Steve gets a mention early on in this SPLC article on Stephen Miller which is trending right now:

    https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2019/11/12/stephen-millers-affinity-white-nationalism-revealed-leaked-emails#racialidentity

    • Replies: @Lot
    , @Bardon Kaldian
  60. anon[316] • Disclaimer says:

    If Woz is so smart, how come he’s on his fourth wife?

  61. dwright says:
    @AnotherDad

    Ultra nerds are no match for women. He even dated Kathy Griffin, yuk.

  62. Kenbak-1, Micral N, Educ-8, Scelbi 8-H, Mark 8, and Datapoint 2200 all predated the Apple 1, not to mention the legendary Altair 8080.

    What Apple is first in is Corporate Bullshit via retconning history. Apple was heavily over-credited with all sorts of innovations by early Silicon Valley historians, to the point that the average Joe probably thinks they invented sand (silica) and VDT’s.

    Look up some of these machines for yourselves.
    The Apple 2 was not even the first all-in-one machine-
    Look up tbe Sphere Micro!

    And lo and behold, we have a winner:

    https://www.cnet.com/news/inside-the-worlds-long-lost-first-microcomputer/

    And tbat’s not even counting various Analog Computers from Heathkit and others, including one designed by (a drumroll, please:) Claude Shannon!!

    The Minivac 601!

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minivac_601

    • Agree: jim jones
  63. The Slate article does not say anything about incomes of David Heinemeier Hansson and Jamie Heinemeier Hansson. Were they the same?

    I will assume they were different, until proven otherwise.

    If the incomes were he same, the article would have said so.

  64. If I were to guess why the algorithm gives a 10x credit limit to the massive income generator of the relationship vs. their betrothed…

    Wait, maybe that’s it. One of the marriage partners has earned a lot of money during their life. The other probably hasn’t. Could be that simple.

    Or maybe one of them has paid down some very large mortgages as the result of previous divorces?

    • Replies: @res
  65. Daniel H says:

    OT: The cucks over at National review always have a “pragmatic”, “conservative” response to what ails us but never the obvious response.

    https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/11/reduce-housing-shortage-with-home-sharing/

    • Replies: @El Dato
  66. Barnard says:
    @Whiskey

    I doubt anyone would call Boone Pickens a beta and got divorced from wife #5 in 2017, not that long before he died this year. His last three marriages combined were shorter than both of his first two. What was he thinking?

  67. Lot says:
    @theMann

    “ It was also much more peripheral friendly.”

    Don’t know about the first gen Apple II, but the IIe seemed to have every peripheral you could want and they all worked well for a very long time in school environments that involved children jamming in their Oregon Trail floppy backwards and yanking their Print Shop Deluxe banner out of the ImageWriter as hard as they could.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  68. Jack D says:

    I don’t understand. Why does Woz’s wife need an Apple credit card so that she can pay 18% interest on her purchases? Why can’t she just buy her Apple junk on her regular credit card or a debit card? Are her other cards maxed out? Does Woz need to buy on credit like some vibrant person because he can’t afford to pay cash for a cell phone? Did all of the divorces strip him of all of his wealth?

    I get offers all the time for these types of store cards but throw them in the trash. I carry 1 credit card and 1 debit card. The credit card gets paid off every month so the full credit line is always available. The only reason I used it instead of debit is that I get 2% cash back and the float from the date of purchase to the due date of the next statement.

    • Replies: @Lot
    , @Jim Don Bob
  69. What a bunch of slanted shit.

    You do this more and more. You spin a perfectly transparent story to mean what it doesn’t mean.

    The moral of this story is that women, any women–poor women, middle-class women, rich women–get hugely lower credit scores than men when all other variables are the same.

    They just used the examples of the rich wives because that is who they knew.

    This doesn’t even go in the “Buried Lede” department. It goes in the “Lying with Spin.”

    And I am by no means happy with feminism, inc.

    But when you’re lying, like you are, you’re lying. Period.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
  70. Lot says:
    @hhsiii

    Stephen Miller, American Hero.

    The more I read his enemies’ desperate attacks, the more I like him, especially his laser-focus on demographics and crime.

    • Agree: Redneck farmer
    • Replies: @anon
  71. Muggles says:

    Too bad no actual family lawyers have commented. This complaint is just another SJW invention.

    Credit algorithms can be done many ways but all will take into account the likelihood of collection legal constraints in the event of non payment. Each person has their own SSN linked credit report. Obviously only one person in a marriage can have their own unique SSN. Each has their own.

    Credit data mainly comes from either legal collection matters filed/pursued/reported to credit agencies or the history of each person’s own credit account. I don’t know the specifics of what might be termed “joint accounts” but they might not result in the same credit limits for each separate card if the individuals have vastly different credit scores.

    Some states are community property states but many others are not. Collection matters can vary widely in court actions and creditors are mainly concerned about divorces, deaths, separations and disappearances where the credit holder fails to pay up. Is the male spouse always personally liable for the female spouse’s debts? I doubt it. (Or vice versa.)

    Statistically males usually have higher incomes (due to more education. longer work histories, etc.) and generic algorithms used by creditors might incorporate those assumptions. To claim that something isn’t “fair” because it may not be the “same” is absurd. Try lending your own money on SJW assumptions and see how that works out.

  72. Is this the same kind of thing as – forever – actuarial tables revealed women to be better drivers than men so automobile insurance was less expensive for females and for the most part we all accepted this as part of the natural order – until – women started entering the workforce and commuting as much as men and the actuarial tables started to shift in the other direction and then it turned out to be chauvinism and evil to be exposed and destroyed?

  73. @Charlesz Martel

    Ronald Wayne and Pete Best should do commercials together. Should we add any other names?

    • Replies: @ScarletNumber
  74. res says:
    @Technite78

    Wait, maybe that’s it. One of the marriage partners has earned a lot of money during their life. The other probably hasn’t. Could be that simple.

    Could also be as simple as the number of years each credit account has been in that person’s name. Or is that commingled after marriage?

    • Replies: @Lot
  75. Jack D says:
    @donvonburg

    The Model T Ford was not the first car (by far) but it was the car that more than any other brought motoring to the masses, turned from a toy of the rich and enthusiasts into something useful and reliable and affordable to the average person . The Apple II occupies the same place in computer history.

    • Agree: Daniel H
    • Replies: @Anonymous
  76. @donvonburg

    I built my first computer in 1976, which, IIRC, was roughly the same time Apple launched with the I. Mine was Z-80 based with a whopping 4k of RAM, which I upgraded to a stupendous 16k, and I wrote an OS to work with a cassette tape drive. Then I discovered girls and airplanes, and any chances I could be another future Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, or The Woz were scattered to the winds.

  77. I do not have any debts.

    That can actually be a negative factor in credit scoring.

  78. @donvonburg

    I use a generic docking station with my MacBook via the USB-C port, giving me all the ports, and I bought a cheapo ($11) bluetooth mouse at Walmart that pairs up nicely with it.

  79. Lot says:
    @res

    That’s part of it. They also ask if you are employed and larger employers sometimes show up on the reports themselves.

    Another factor is history of spending a lot and paying on time. If your corporate AMEX gets $80,000 in first class flights and NetJets per year for decades, that will factor into your personal credit line.

    Finally, the fact California is a community property state doesn’t mean every asset is jointly owned. That may require a court to determine. For all Goldman Sachs knows, Mrs. The Woz could have an iron prenup and limited allowance.

  80. Dumbo says:
    @RichardTaylor

    And don’t forget Youtube’s Susan Wojcicki. Censorship increased a lot since the became CEO Of Youtube. She’s not a wife, but close: sister-in-law of Mr. Brin.

    We live in a meritocracy, never forget…

    Well, a “nepoticracy”.

    • Replies: @anon
    , @Bardon Kaldian
  81. @Mike1

    Regardless of opinions this is a big deal from a legal perspective: the odds Goldman has really screwed up here is huge. It is VERY illegal to lend differently with the same inputs. The only possible way they can avoid problems here is if the wives inputted radically different income figures.

    Am i the only sentient being who can cut this oh so mysterious Gordian Knot?

    How about … the husbands have a bigger salaries and/or much bigger assets than their wives?

    I don’t know anything about this DHH dude who sounds like a complete tool. But the case of the Woz is obvious. Goldman looked him up and, lo and behold … the guy has some money laying around. Money that was accumulated before he married #4 and–presuming Woz knows a lawyer and loves his kids–is not marital property.

    It would be nice if Apple was giving women smaller credit limits just because they are women. Spend less and be in debt less is very sound guidance that a *lot* of American women need help following. But i very much doubt that’s the case. Rather i think this is as simple as “their husbands make more money”.

    • Replies: @gongtao
    , @anon
    , @Mike1
  82. anon[216] • Disclaimer says:
    @Dumbo

    We live in a meritocracy, never forget…

    We live in a gynocentric mobocracy. That’s why the wife or sister of some SV tycoon has such authority & can dispatch a Twitter mob of flying monkies at the drop of a frown. Calling it “momocracy” is also accurate; “Mom SAID SO” is not the argument of mature adults, but it works in the back yard on a summer day.

  83. gongtao says:
    @AnotherDad

    I found an article by DHH’s wife where she mentions a fact that he omitted from his Twitter thread: she has no income. She is a stay at home mom. I think the mystery of the discrepancy in their credit limits has been solved.

  84. eah says:

    OT

    The idiocy of Trump encapsulated in one tweet.

    • Replies: @El Dato
    , @J.Ross
  85. El Dato says:
    @Daniel H

    “Home shaming” can’t be far behind.

    While on Off-Topix:

    I was a liberal NY prof, but when I said the left was going too far, colleagues called me a NAZI & treated me like a RUSSIAN SPY

    Contains this nugget:

    Meanwhile, social psychologists and political scientists have considered collective hysteria to be a characteristic of conservatives alone, with one begrudging but important exception. Four years after publishing a paper on “the relationship between personality traits and political ideologies,” the American Journal of Political Science admitted that the article contained an ever-so-slight error. When they delivered the results of their study, the authors “exactly reversed” the findings where the left and right were concerned. The periodical’s editors have now issued a correction: it is liberals who exhibit the personality trait of “psychoticism” and not, as stated in the original article, conservatives. I saw this psychoticism first-hand, although I was the one called crazy.

  86. El Dato says:
    @eah

    What’s he trying to talk about here? What’s the quid-pro-quo??

  87. J.Ross says:
    @eah

    Is it idiocy or is this his surely now familiar negotiating tactic, the over-offering opening? And as bad as Trump has stumbled (and he’s stumbled more than ever before but stumbled legally), nobody in the GOP has any basis to criticize him after losing Virginia.

  88. @hhsiii

    I just checked. Stephen Miller is described as “white nationalist”. Huey Newton & similar ilk are not “black nationalists”, but African-American activists or so.

    Seems that any person of Jewish extraction who doesn’t follow the SPLC, ADL,…party line is a traitor, a potential Hitler, whatever.

    Wikipedia- shmikipedia…

  89. anon[216] • Disclaimer says:
    @AnotherDad

    How about … the husbands have a bigger salaries and/or much bigger assets than their wives?

    Does this Apple card make my assets look bigger? Does it?

  90. Lot says:
    @Jack D

    “ The only reason I used it instead of debit is that I get 2% cash back and the float from the date of purchase to the due date of the next statement.”

    Two other reasons to use credit not debit:

    1. If a CC is stolen it is much harder for a thief to get cash from it than a debit card.

    2. If there is a merchant dispute, the consumer is in a better position than if it were a debit transaction.

    Ask people who’ve had their wallet stolen with both types. They will likely tell you the CCs were ignored and fraud was committed on the debit.

    Final small reason is using a CC responsibly helps your credit score more than a debit card.

    • Agree: Barnard
  91. @donvonburg

    Motorola overpriced their CPUs in the interest of short term profits and wound up spinning off their microprocessor business for comparative peanuts (as Freescale) while the inferior Intel became overwhelmingly dominant.

    The short term profit model has worked really well for Apple in the mobile phone arena. Sometimes it works really well, and sometimes it crashes and burns. There’s probably a bit of luck involved.

  92. anon[282] • Disclaimer says:
    @Lot

    Ann Coulter says Steve Miller is a major cause of the Trump admin’s failure to get anything substantive done on immigration. Basically, that he’s a bureaucratic infighter and self-promoter. Looking out for No. 1 to the detriment of The Cause.

    youtube link

    • Replies: @Lot
  93. Bumpkin says:

    Funny reading the comments about this on the reddit for programming, they generally agree with the algorithm, and they’re not known for agreeing with Big Finance. An example:

    “So let me get this straight based on that tweet chain:

    1.) Husband and wife pool all assets and income. Let’s call their total net worth + income $X.

    2.) Husband applies for a credit card, states he has $X in net worth and income

    3.) Bank says ‘okay, you have access to $X that we could go after if you default, therefore we will give you a credit limit of $Y based on $X assets’

    4.) Wife then signs up for a separate account and points to the same assets

    5.) Bank says ‘wait a minute – yes you have $X in net worth and income, but we already used that in our assessment of your husband and gave out credit based on all of that. We’ll give you a small credit limit of $Z as a courtesy because you don’t really have anything additional to secure it with that we’re not already at risk against’.

    6.) This is considered sexist

    All of their assets are pooled. He has access to all of her assets and vice versa. Why on earth should a bank effectively double down on their risk for this couple with only 1x worth of ‘collateral’ against the credit line? If their assets weren’t combined then he might have a point, but they are so this complaint is somewhat absurd. Add her as a named user on his account (which is really the couple’s account since it’s up against both of their net worth) and she’d have the same credit limit as he does.”

  94. Not Raul says:
    @donvonburg

    Xerox was the Nokia of the 1970s.

  95. Still waiting for an iota of actual evidence that the sex of the women had anything to do with the outcomes here….

  96. Mike1 says:
    @AnotherDad

    Not how regulated lending works. You may be “sentient” but I own several lending companies. Pro tip: credit cards and assets, zero connection.

    • Replies: @AnotherDad
  97. Hodag says:
    @FPD72

    I was hoping the wedding theme would be “The Woz and Boz Connection”.

    Life is cruel.

  98. Anon[248] • Disclaimer says:
    @everybodyhatesscott

    This is only true in the United States, actually only in California.

    In Japan you are responsible for all charges, although you can negotiate with the card company and burden of proof is on you. In general, any signs of carelessness or lack of responsible behavior mean you pay. Different way of thinking, different incentives. It works in a culturally homogeneous country with high trust, even of large corporations.

    • Replies: @everybodyhatesscott
  99. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @Jack D

    No, the Apple II never had that huge a market share. Probably it had 30 or 40 percent of the home and small business 8 bit market at its peak, and even then the clones like the Franklin and early whitebox systems started cutting into it. The Trash 80, Commodore PET and VIC and 64, all were contemporaneous with the Apple II.

    On the other hand, the Model T at its peak accounted for well over ninety percent of all automobiles on the planet.

    The Apple II did, however, directly got IBM to produce the PC and to produce it the way they did, using ASCII rather than EBCDIC, an outside purchased OS and an outside purchased microprocessor , and using the Apple II’s idea of a motherboard with the CPU and supporting logic on it and video and I/O on daughter cards. IBM improved the ergonomics by putting the keyboard on separately with a cable, offering a best-in-industry keyboard, and providing space in the case for floppy and other types of drives. They also offered a choice of monitors for different applications.

    It did this because unlike the other home machines the Apple II was making inroads into the business space. It could be bought with floppy drives for the price of a decent “dumb terminal” and be used either standalone or as a front end for a minicomputer system, and business productivity apps like VisiCalc often drove sales.

    When Jobs eclipsed Wozniak as the fountainhead of doctrine at Apple, the Apple II was effectively deprecated for the Macintosh, which did everything exactly backward from the Apple II. It was a sealed non expandable box, and it was deliberately made to force the user into using it “The Macintosh Way”.

    Apple never achieved that kind of market share again, but their profit share has stayed excellent (after a few bad years in the 90s) because they have been able to keep their build costs at whitebox levels while charging a substantial premium for their product. Like most very profitable companies, there is a good bit of “commonize costs, privatize profits” involved. Apple does not own, but tightly controls its supply chain prime contractors, who are in low wage areas and are particularly adept at exploiting low cost labor. Apple also is big enough to negotiate very advantageous deals with the suppliers that are discretionary-there’s a reason Apple does not have any interest in using AMD rather than Intel processors, Apple likely has negotiated prices at just above AMD levels for Intel parts.

    Why do people pay a premium for Apple’s product? Patly style and marketing, partly because some people are used to Apple products and do not want to change, and partly because in some ways Apple products are better than their commodity competition. Which is not to say they are objectively excellent, necessarily-it comes down to not having to outrun the bear, just the other guy running away as well.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
  100. @Anon

    Basically, it sounds like the Apple Card credit algorithm discriminates against housewives or women who make far less than their husbands.

  101. @Morris Applebaum IV

    Jobs squeezed the best 3 years of their lives out of a long number of engineers, like Woz and the guy who invent the Mac software in the early 1980s.

    • Replies: @Autochthon
    , @Autochthon
  102. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @Lot

    The IIe was the quintessential Apple II although some prefer the keyboard on the ][+.

    Old Apple II hardware is finally going up in price but it’s still possible to put a system together for a couple of hundred bucks or so if you root around. With a CP/M card and serial port connection to a server running a mini emulator (can even be a Ras Pi) you can have an all in one solution to being able to demonstrate and train on most any vintage computing environment out there besides the most exotic.

    The real cognoscenti meet at Kansasfest each year. Which is actually in Missouri, but that’s besides the point.

  103. @Anonymous

    I switched to Mac laptops from Dell-Windows laptops about 8 or 10 years ago. They were a lot less of a hassle back then than Windows machines. But Macs haven’t improved much since about 2015 so I doubt that there is much of a gap now, but I’m too old and set in my ways to switch back.

    • Replies: @Anon
    , @Lot
    , @Dissident
  104. @Mike1

    Not how regulated lending works. You may be “sentient” but I own several lending companies. Pro tip: credit cards and assets, zero connection.

    Ok, income from assets.

    My obvious point being these people didn’t make couples–one account–applications. They made individual applications and the spouses have different individual incomes.

    If all this virtue signalling whining is about actually anything it is not really about “gender” discrimination, it’s about: “all his money is mine!” or (more charitably) “we’re a couple!”. I.e. traditional marriage.

    • Replies: @Mike1
  105. Anon[126] • Disclaimer says:
    @Steve Sailer

    I’m a desktop guy. I use a Macintosh Mini with a Dell display. In the past I’ve had iMacs, the Cube, the odd normal desktop Mac.

    I don’t like laptops because I like a nice mechanical keyboard, and I like a nice large display as the main display, not as a second display. I use the Spaces feature and the simple trackpad ability of the Mac mouse to swipe from Space to Space, so I can have the equivalent of several displays.

    Although Mac minis and iMacs in the end use some laptop parts because Johnny Ive insists on making everything too small and thin, they are still cheaper than laptops relative to their performance.

    Dell has a wider variety of displays than, say, the iMac, which has one. You can get a ciniematic wraparound display from Dell very cheaply, for instance.

    I never use my computer away from my home office, so portability is not important. An iPad is fine for sofa browsing and simple writing, with a Swipe style input mode.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  106. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anon

    Dell (or any other) monitors, Microsoft or Microsoft standard mice, and PC USB keyboards all work fine on Macs.

    Apple deliberately refuses to make what most people would consider the common sense Mac product, a desktop Mac with normal expandability but at a more normal price point than the new Mac Pro. The simple basic mini tower. You either buy a nonexpndable iMac mini, a iMac with built in monitor, or the Mac Pro at pricing not seen since the glory days of Sun, SGI and the workstationeers.

    I prefer the old style corporate laptops with easily user replaceable batteries, hard drives and so forth. For one thing, you can swap hard drives readily, which is something I would want if I traveled internationally-keep one scratch drive with a bare OS so that in countries which demand the right to boot up and snoop on your laptop, they will find nothing. But these are going away from the other laptop makers as well.

    Jony Ive is leaving Apple, will be interesting to see if he does anything else.

    • Replies: @Jack D
  107. @donvonburg

    The Apple 1 wasn’t even the first “hobby” computer marketed not to businesses but strictly to individuals: that distinction goes to the Altair and other S-100 bus systems.

    The Altair that donvonberg briefly references was the Altair 8800 developed by computer engineer Ed Roberts in 1975.

    Robert’s company was Micro Instrumentation and Telemetry Systems. A couple of unknown software pioneers named Bill Gates and Paul Allen were hired to write the software known as Altair Basic.

    Fascinating, detailed story is on Wikipedia.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ed_Roberts_(computer_engineer)

  108. Lot says:
    @anon

    The only specific claim there is he “blocked” Kobach.

    The problem with this unsourced claim is Kobach was unlikely to be confirmed by the senate for anything, and rightfully wasn’t after a low level position not requiring it.

    That really just leaves chief of staff or maybe the newly made up “immigration czar” position the Chooch took.

    Trump has been erratic in his personnel decisions in every single area. Blaming Miller for this is dumb.

    • Replies: @anon
  109. Lot says:
    @Steve Sailer

    “ Macs haven’t improved much since about 2015 ”

    Windows OS and MS Office have been getting worse since 2013, so minor improvements on Mac sound great.

    The big long term goal of Microsoft is to have everyone with a computer in America to pay an annual fee to use windows and office, $100 to $250 a year depending on specifics.

    They are making steady progress.

    • Replies: @Anon87
  110. Dissident says:
    @Ola

    C64 was in production from 1982 to the closure of Commodore in 1994. They were not as sturdily built as the Apple IIe, but mine (bought in 1984) works fine today and so does my Vic 20 (bought in 1982).

    What do you use the Commodores for today? I discarded my C64 in the late 90’s but may still have some of the 5.25″ floppy disks. I remember how prone the 1541 floppy disk drive was to overheating.

  111. @Lot

    4k can make text tiny. The software is supposed to adjust for this by using more pixels per letter, but it doesn’t always work right. Maybe Apple has figured out a way around it, but Windows hasn’t, especially older software.

    Apple hasn’t figured out shit. Their schtick involves relying on iCult members staying inside the Walled Garden and therefore not realising that people running a grown-up OS can adjust the default text size in ways that don’t fuck up the entire machine.

    I bought an iPad Pro 12.9″ specifically because I figured that there might be SOME way to get the text size to be larger than spider-foreskins. (well, that and to play Real Racing 3, which is the shit).

    Apple font sizes are not adjustable – at least not in a way that renders properly and propagates through apps.

    I should have known better: The Lovely has an iMac 27″: 27″ of super-HD screen real estate is no fucking good if the default font size is about 6pt. (“Is this fucking thing connected to wifi? I can’t see – the fucking icon is the size of a bee’s cock“).

    Par contre: my setup is 3×23″ (Samsung) near (for code; PyCharm, DataGrip and MATLAB); 2×27″ LG middle (for web); 1×34″ LG high (for porn? No, split for MATLAB variables and DataGrip output). and 1×27 Samsung portrait for DataGrip database lists and documents.

    I have variable font sizes… (and since it’s after CoB I’m writing this sat 5ft from a 50” Samsung hooked up to my 2015 notebook. The font’s so big that a capital O looks like a baby’s head).

    Fuck Apple. Fuck them to death. I don’t kneel for anyone, and I certainly won’t fucking SQUINT for nobody neither. (NoSquint – the browser extension – doesn’t work on Firefox for iOS, and I’m not retarded enough to use Safari)

    • Replies: @Lot
  112. Dissident says:
    @Steve Sailer

    Is Apple still known for superior customer support?

  113. @Tipsy

    When Jay Mohr was married to Nikki Cox, he legally changed his name to Jon Ferguson Cox Mohr. Sadly, he didn’t choose Jay Mohr Cox.

  114. @Dissident

    I remember how prone the 1541 floppy disk drive was to overheating.

    The 1541 was a beast, and not in a good way. It was as big as the C64 itself and was so painfully slow that Fast Load cartridges were sold to improve their performance. Otherwise, after typing

    LOAD “*”,8,1

    you could go make yourself a sandwich and hopefully your program would be done loading by the time you were done. The reason the 1541 was so slow was that it had to be in order to be used with a Vic 20.

    • Replies: @Jack D
  115. @jim jones

    Turing didn’t inventth e digital computer. Konrad Zuse did.As for Zuse’s sexual orienrtation or preference, who cares?

    • Replies: @Jack D
  116. Ola says:
    @Dissident

    Well, I’m a fan of retrogaming and retrocomputing in general. I enjoy hardware constraints and I love to see what coders, gfx-artists, musicians and electronic engineers can come up with for the Vic and C64 today.

    There are plenty of new games, demos and software being produced in Europe on an almost daily basis. Plenty of hardware too (US guys contribute more here), e.g. lots of alternatives to the 1541 drive.

    My drive and most of my floppys from the 80s still work but modern SD card-based devices like the the 1541 Ultimate and SD2IE cartridges are faster, more reliable and hold much more data.

    Check out the forums on Lemon64 or forum64 (German) for an idea of what Commodore enthusiasts are up to today.

    • Replies: @Dissident
  117. Jack D says:
    @Ola

    Mine stopped working decades ago. However, it is trivial to emulate the hardware of C64 on a modern computer (the biggest problem is getting it to run slow enough so that games are playable) so that you can still run native C64 programs should you so desire. Which I don’t.

    • Replies: @Menschmaschine
  118. Jack D says:
    @naivetheorist

    Turing didn’t invent any computers at all but he did important theoretical work. Zuse’s computer was “Turing complete” meaning that it was a “true” working computer but rather than using electronic switches (tubes or transistors) as logic gates it used electromechanical relays. This was really a dead end because there is a (very low) limit on how fast you can switch mechanical relays on and off.

    The first modern computer, which lead directly to computers as we know them today (as Zuse’s did not – he was Leif Erickson, not Columbus) was ENIAC, built at Penn by Eckert and Mauchly, which used electronic switches (vacuum tubes). Even then, in its primitive form, it was 1,000 times faster than Zuse’s clacking machine.

    • Replies: @Menschmaschine
  119. Jack D says:
    @ScarletNumber

    It also only used one side of the floppy disk. If you wanted to use the other side you had to flip it over and cut a new notch to turn off the write protection on the flip side.

  120. @Jack D

    Faithful emulation of the C64 is very hard, since the 6502 microprocessor did not intercept non defined command opcodes. This induced clever programmers to try out the reaction to all possible opcodes and using them in their programs. A nightmare for emulator writers…

    • Replies: @Jack D
  121. @Jack D

    Zuse started with electromechanic devices, but of course he moved on later to vacuum tubes and then transistors. These are simply evolutionary steps in the concrete implementation of digital computers: First mechanical relays, then vacuum tubes, then transistors, then low scale integrated circuits and so on with ever higer integrated ICs. But it would be silly to speak that any single of these steps somehow constituted something completely new.

  122. Mike1 says:
    @AnotherDad

    These are accurate points. It is why I included this caveat in my original post though: “The only possible way they can avoid problems here is if the wives inputted radically different income figures.”

    No one is checking who Wozniak is to approve or deny credit or assign limits. Machines do this. People love using “algorithms” to sound like they know what they are talking about but in this case algorithms are doing the work.

    There are two possible causes here:

    – The algo has a mistake coded in (big problem).
    – Different income figures were entered by the husbands/wives (zero issue, story will magically go away).

  123. @Anon

    Can I get a poll of Japanese commenters here? Is there 1? Look at this other country we weren’t talking about “gotcha”

    In the USA, credit cards are safer than debit and it’s not even close.

  124. anon[282] • Disclaimer says:
    @Lot

    Agreed it’s no litany of evidence.

    But from a big-picture, outsider-looking-in holistic view, it provides a plausible explanation for why things are the way they are: basically zero additional good hires on the immigration front.

    Presumably she has access to people with firsthand knowledge of what’s actually going on over there.

  125. Jack D says:
    @Anonymous

    desktop Mac with normal expandability but at a more normal price point than the new Mac Pro.

    If you are really interested in such a machine (and TBH, not many people are – Mac people are usually people who want something that “just works” and are not interested in fiddling with expansion cards and other such “technical” nonsense – does your toaster have an expansion slot?) then it is really quite easy to build a Hackintosh. There are plenty of resources on the web as to what hardware configurations work (Mac drivers don’t exist for every hardware item but they exist for enough of them that it’s easy to put together a working Hackintosh) and step by step instructions for getting your white box Intel machine to boot the macOS.

    TBH, even in the Windows world, the trend has been away from expandability. Most people nowadays buy laptops that have little expandability. Even modern desktop machines come with few expansion slots, nor do they really need them. Peripherals that once resided on daughter cards (sound, wired and wireless networking, bluetooth, USB slots, etc.) have all migrated to the motherboard.

  126. @Jack D

    I get cash back from my credit card -and- my liability if it is stolen is $50. I don’t see the difference between a debit card and carrying cash.

    OT: Saw Midway today in wide screen and Dolby. It was pretty good, generally historic, and had great CGI battle scenes.

  127. Lot says:
    @Dissident

    “ What do you use the Commodores for today? ”

    I use a C64 emulator to play old games and run programs from demoscene / chiptunes sites. Not often, but a fun way to kill an hour every few months.

    If I had more time/space, I’d enjoy undertaking the minor challenge of trying to connect a physical C64 to the web. I’d also like to write, save, load and run a computer program on a cassette just once in my life.

    Thank you for your comment to Unz btw.

    • Replies: @ScarletNumber
  128. Lot says:
    @Kratoklastes

    “ icon is the size of a bee’s cock”

    Yeah that was exactly what I experienced going from 1600×1080 to 2560×1440 monitors. Wasn’t a big deal to fix and work around, but the issue would be more extreme on a 4k, and Steve specifically said he had issues with seeing small text.

    Eventually 4k will be universal and we’ll all deal with it, and be forced to change monitor resolution back and forth when running many older programs. Until then, I stand by “no 4k for boomers.”

  129. Dissident says:
    @Dissident

    Well, I’m a fan of retrogaming and retrocomputing in general. I enjoy hardware constraints and I love to see what coders, gfx-artists, musicians and electronic engineers can come up with for the Vic and C64 today.

    Thanks for replying (and thanks to Lot as well). My school had both the Commodore 64 as well as the Apple IIe and IIc. Then Macs, which I recall as my first experience with both a mouse as well as the 3.5″ so-called floppy disks (that were not actually floppy, the way the earlier 5.25″ inch ones were).

    Lots of memories and nostalgia attached to these vintage models. I regret ditching my C64 but hardly have the space for it (even packed-up, much less set-up to be comfortably usable).
    ~ ~ ~
    Jim Don Bob wrote:

    I get cash back from my credit card -and- my liability if it is stolen is $50. I don’t see the difference between a debit card and carrying cash.

    One difference, from a privacy perspective, is that cash purchases are not tracked the way those made using a debit card are.

    I recall hearing the late Joe Franklin* enumerate a number of things that he claimed he had never done/had. Among them were owning a credit card and going to a beach.

    *Eccentric radio/TV personality who was parodied by Billy Crystal on Saturday Night Live— back in the days before that acclaimed production had degenerated into the embarrassing spectacle of tired, obnoxious, vapid, smug Goodwhite preening that, from all indications, it long since has. Incidentally, I recall none other than (“The Rev.”) Jesse Jackson starring on SNL either during or not long after his 1984 Presidential bid and finding him pretty funny. Specifically, a parody of a TV game show he did called The Point is Moot!.

    • Replies: @ScarletNumber
  130. Jack D says:
    @Menschmaschine

    But there are only 255? possible opcodes and probably most of them produce completely nonsensical, useless or duplicative operations and were never used even by the most unorthodox programmers, so how hard would it be to emulate the handful of undefined opcodes that actually did something useful and were actually used by more than a handful of programmers?

  131. @Lot

    I’d also like to write, save, load and run a computer program on a cassette just once in my life.

    Please believe me when I tell you it isn’t all that.

    Also, they used ordinary audio cassettes, but I don’t know if you can buy blank ones anymore.

  132. @Dissident

    LOL I would hate to live in a world where Joe Franklin isn’t famous and he needs to have a footnote so you can explain who he is.

    He successfully sued Sarah Silverman for slander for her joke in the Aristocrats.

    • Replies: @Jack D
  133. Jack D says:
    @ScarletNumber

    Who he was, not is, since he’s dead.

  134. Dissident says:
    @Ola

    I just want to be sure you didn’t miss my acknowledgment of this gracious reply of yours to my inquiry, as I mistakenly posted my comment as a reply to my own instead of to yours. Thanks again and take care.

    • Replies: @Ola
  135. Ola says: • Website
    @Dissident

    No worries, I noticed your acknowledgment and you’re very welcome!

  136. Anon87 says:
    @Lot

    Microsoft is really out of ideas.

    I agree, their bread and butter software gets worse and worse (cheap Indian coding?) while they are desperate to switch to subscription services to keep some sort of annuity stream going.

    How well do their tablets sell? They constantly have failed in the hardware market. Gamers running custom PCs still are mostly Windows based, right? If corporate America ever transitions away from Office suite, they may be in big trouble.

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